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Hi Lexie,
"Mysterious truths": I suspect one of the reasons we have venerated mysteries so much is that we have long been in the habit of yielding our moral agency & responsibility to religious or political institutions. As long as we remain non-creative, conservative institutions can maintain their social power & control (and keep us heading in the wrong direction).
"The siren call": This is the "truth" way of thinking – "the (mysterious) truth is out there". But the value way of thinking is the opposite – the value is in here, awaiting my expression of it & my self-actualisation through it (and all the practical things I do).
Perhaps the question is whether or not we've reached a level where we can absorb this function of adaptation ourselves, via human intelligence and introspection.
Agreed; this is the key question our current state of consciousness confronts us with. Consciousness following the old patterns that have got us to here is not going to get us to where we all want to go – a place of sustainable & self-actualising existence. Consciousness-with-instincts has been our unwitting enemy; it now needs to become our aware friend.
I'm curious as to what this might look like in a real life scenario?
De Bono has his "six thinking hats" method which is very good but doesn't seem to have strong neurological evidence to support it. Further, according to Wiki, "The six thinking hats indicate problems and solutions about an idea or a product you might come up with". By way of contrast, the Emergent Method is based on four aspects of human nature that have been studied by psychologists for quite a long time – competitive instincts (or what I call "CQ"), cooperative instincts (or what Daniel Goleman called social intelligence or "SQ"), extrospective consciousness (or a version of traditional "IQ") and introspective consciousness (or what Goleman called emotional intelligence or "EQ"). Further, the Emergent Method is for us as emergent, self-organising systems and partially independent moral agents (it doesn't work without this realisation). It's not about coming up with ideas about an external product but rather about expressing or making explicit internally owned moral values by delivering some kind of broad value to others. It's about self-actualising. However I'd imagine the two methods would work together very well because the one seems to taper off where the other kicks in.
In the past I have been plagued by the notion that values we "make up" as humans are somehow subjective and less good, even though I know that doesn't really make sense…I suppose put that way there's no intrinsic Something that makes top down processing inherently valuable vs. bottom up. They could both be viewed as subjective to a degree, it's just that one comes from a voice above, one comes from amongst us.
I'd go a step further. No matter what religion or creed you follow, the greatness of your God is marked by the attributes or values you assign to Him and through Him, assign to yourself. Removing the Middleman, your greatness is measured by the values you live by – whether you believe in God or not!
A religion's God is its Personification of its conceptualised and revered values (positive or negative). For the reason already mentioned (a reticence to accept our limited moral agency) many of us must see our values personified in a god before we can internalise them ourselves. Another reason perhaps, is the very colourful & rich language (or collection of concepts & rituals) we have developed in the social worship of our gods that is not available when we speak of values outside of religions, their oft-supposed owners. This is why there is the lack of research into meta-cultural values you noted. Religion is the aging survival machine of values uncovered in our species' evolutionary past. We desperately need new research!
Viewed from another level, I suppose that line of thinking really lends something very sacred to the idea of human existence. You used the term limited god - it really is quite a responsibility if you think of humanity (or similar high level consciousness) as being the level of emergence where love, empathy, responsibility, values, and so on are created within the universe. And I like the idea of them being "omnijective" if only because for me it's like a tiny cheat that makes them feel a little more real and less subjective..
I'd put a different spin on this. I reckon it's not at our conscious level where moral values are created, just expressed & made explicit. Value was created implicitly with the first disturbance of the uneasy "infinite nothing" unity. More value is created with every emergent step from that point. So general value is everywhere around us, but moral value was inherent in our nature as a particular species with a particular mode of survival well before we were aware of the fact. Most animals (& maybe many humans) are still unaware of their own moral values. This is the basis of the objective nature of moral values. But that objectivity is latent until we, as subjective moral agents, make them explicit. It is the operation of our agency that makes values explicit (and in law courts, renders us culpable of committed crimes). I agree with your idea of the human sacredness that comes with our subjective and limited moral agency. I would love to invent a new term like the Hindu greeting "Namaste", that is "The divinity in me greets and honours the divinity that is also in you" (for atheists, the word "divinity" could perhaps be interpreted as "essential life principle and moral agency"). This concept of individuated & lively divinity seems to beautifully point to the self-organising principle of the universe we are discussing here - the immutable values at home and emerging in and through each and every individual…
I agree that there is an odd value gap in society today - again, using values in a broader sense. Stereotypical secular values seem to be heavily work-centric, which is not always a bad thing, but in moderation, and combined with other values. There are communities where one can find other sorts of values expressed, of course - religious, artistic, volunteer, etc. - but it's often like shopping at speciality stores, you get one set in one location.
This is spot on and applies firstly in the narrow sense of moral values. Our ethical codes are limited because of our analytical, excessively rational and linear way of thinking. Emergent ethics tends to combine the values of the virtue ethicists with the principles, beliefs, intentions and acts of the deontologists and the regard for social outcome of the consequentialists in a single, naturalistic model of "personal moral congruence" or "sustainable wellbeing". Deep happiness, contentment and satisfaction does not come with values alone or principles alone or intentions alone or acts alone or outcomes alone – it comes with a strong moral congruence between seemingly immutable values-in-action and outcomes achieved. Feedback within the self-organising ethical system is essential. Yes – the ethical system must be able to change, develop, grow and adapt to be healthy! To support our self-actualisation it must also continually challenge the fixed perceptions of a particular point of view: It must move through phases like winter-spring-summer-autumn. Emergent ethics does this by moving through the moral value sets associated with each of CQ – IQ – SQ – EQ –. Most organisations pick a few moral values to guide them for fear of holding contradictory values and thus sending unclear messages to their staff. But this is a fixed, analytical point of view that leads to imbalance, as you have noted, even in the broader sense of delivered value. We should not be afraid of moving together from hat to hat, as de Bono suggests. This is what innovative managers have started to do, thanks to de Bono. It helps everyone appreciate the SWOT (in the consciousness-with-instincts) of themselves and their colleagues. It helps us appreciate the team and also reorganise cross-functional teams to extract maximum delivered value…
Can this, or any system, account for self-delusion and self-rationalizing? This is a topic of particular interest to me lately as I've learned about the role of the subconscious, how "conscious thought" is not what we tend to think it is, and so on. I'm glad the Free Will book is coming out soon, as I hope it will clear some of this up for me.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to Sam's new book as well. I guess one way we can begin to escape self-delusion & self-rationalising is if consciousness-with-instincts becomes more aware of itself (its SWOT). The topic of free will and the relationship between consciousness & sub-consciousness I see as a slightly separate issue. I don't support the idea that because the subconscious kicks in before consciousness that this means consciousness can have no bearing on our lives. This seems to miss the reality of the feedback system in operation between the two. It also seems to fall for the old linear way of thinking restricted to our current knowledge rather than facing the complex, fuzzy, non-linear, recursive, asymmetrical & emergent reality we actually live within. But that said, we as a species probably have more and stronger instincts than most other species!
Does everything eventually have to be externalized and subjected to a scientific method of sorts in order to assure its truth? Is this, in part, what you're referencing here through outcomes?
Good point. Science has its uses, but it's reality as our judge that will hopefully pull us into line if we are 'aware enough' - if we recognise the mind games (& biases) for what they are. The issue is that wisdom doesn't come easily. We have to learn how to 'dance'. It's a skill that comes with experience & sometimes harsh feedback.
(The ethical system) must move through phases like winter-spring-summer-autumn. Emergent ethics does this by moving through the moral value sets associated with each of CQ – IQ – SQ – EQ –.
Again, I don't know what it would all look like in action, but it's certainly a beautiful idea!
It's a lot like the six hats method, but maybe needs a few of those 'dancing' skills too. E.g. you recognise you're in a risky situation - you need CQ (i.e. self-reliant competitive instincts within a risky environment & the associated moral values such as self-esteem, inner drive and volitional courage). Or maybe you recognise you're in a social situation - you need SQ & social values such as mateship, team honour, dependability, patience, etc. I could go on - but obviously some values suited to some situations can be inappropriate in others. This is why we need to push ourselves out of our comfort zones & be flexible sometimes. We need to 'dance', not opportunistically, but wisely as the environment suggests. This is not just a convenient situational ethics - it requires that we fully immerse ourselves into the value set of the given phase until we perceive the phase change. It demand more of us, not less. Not that we always have to act; sometimes we have to pause, smell the roses & let others act to enhance our self-actualisation.
I certainly agree on the language portion. I think that the language and imagery involved in religion speaks to a "non-logical" way of knowing (emotion based? value based?) in many people - it taps into some sort of Jungian archetypal element that just "feels right", or feels like a truth - and in many ways, probably is, but in a more universal and less literal sense.
Agreed. But let's get rid of the mystery. Religion doesn't own any truths or virtues or values - it just claims them. Big difference.
So you're putting your money on the subconscious? I'm still giving mine the side eye a little bit, but I hope your optimism is correct… I hope that Darwinism doesn't mean that part of us is doomed to a scrabble for resources and self interest.
Not sure what you mean here. But I am a bit of an optimist. I do believe we are becoming aware of and fed up with the mind games of consciousness gone astray. And I think this will lead us to the new way of thinking I and many others are advocating. I'm just doing it from a non-New Age / non-religious angle!
Do you think it's actually possible to set one's intentions? Or, alternately, that we can't "really", living in a causal universe and all, but that they're probably intrinsically moral and full of values anyhow?
I do think that without a "higher consciousness" we will all perish as a result of the current mind games playing out in our petri dish.
I find the idea of building values for the sake of values very refreshing, and it seems like a very satisfying thing to do. For instance, my parents were very achievement oriented, just about every morning they would ask me what I planned on accomplishing that day. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but later I'd find myself caught up in a beautiful moment and think (on some level,) "Ah, it's too bad this isn't really worth anything - I mean, I'm not accomplishing anything here." To me the idea that doing for the sake of doing isn't always the best is very satisfying in thinking about how to structure the new year - it's great to think about doing things that are fulfilling, moving, loving, beautiful, etc., just for their own sake.
A bit from my unpublished book: If we want to be (via entropy) without aiming to do we deny our fleeting life-here-and-now essence; if we aim to do (via negentropy) without stopping to be we deny our most basic, material existence (that, far from fleeting, has existed for all time past, even in the heart of stars): We gotta dance, not just be or do! And in the human dance, we must actively seek and choose to quiet ourselves, experience, think, identify and know, because we are rational and volitional beings (this is our species' distinguishing nature and our species' basic means of survival).
To enjoy this short life (and get its rate of change or passing of psychological time roughly right) we must both selfishly take here-and-now and we must unselfishly surrender here-and-now. This is an antinomy - a complete contradiction between two equally reasonable laws or principles; one is the fleeting and emergent principle of the self-organised living (which is negentropic taking) and the other is the constant and self-eliminating principle of the externally organised non-living (which is entropic giving). A fulfilled and happy life is a wonderful "antinomic" dance or musical improvisation between the doing (fleeting living) and the being (regardless of living; inanimate resting or passive surrendering), or the taking and the giving, or the pull and the push, or the negentropic and the entropic: To take a new breath, we also have to give our old breath. Life's apparent antinomy is only resolved in the virtual, transient and disappearing here-and-now midst of its monistic process or dance. Nature's incongruous and asymmetric but essentially egoless interplay of taking and giving here-and-now, is the essence of the philosophy of Emergence; it is also the essence of evolution's unstoppable algorithms…
Hi Lexie,
ok - first of all I believe that the conscious and subconscious are 'designed' to work hand in hand. E.g. I go to bed at night with a problem on my mind & wake up in the morning with a clear solution. Or I set a goal for myself and find that subconsciously as well as consciously I am working towards that goal. This is the 'normal' state of affairs for our healthy species.
But often, because of modern consciousness's mind games, the 'working together' bit gets messed up. We say one thing and do another - we lose our authenticity… We allow significant others to drive us… We live to please others and in the process lose ourselves… We become indoctrinated by a man-made dogma, etc. etc. We become divorced or estranged from the natural values of our species and particular self. It's like the difference between a person's spoken language and body language, The two should speak the same language, but often they don't in our modern world, with its clever spoken language constructs & nuances. The body language usually speaks the natural truth (unless consciously manipulated), betraying the mind games behind the spoken language. This dissonance can be deliberate (e.g. in an attempt to deceive) or not so deliberate (e.g. we notice in the vapid eyes of our friend the sadness hidden within and our friend's valiant attempt to remain positive in the face of emotional trauma).
So where do the unnatural mind games come from? And can we do anything to combat them? I think that Eckhart Tolle's books "The Power of Now" & "A New Earth" were on the right track here (unlike "The Secret" I might add). I just reject the author's belief in transcendental consciousness or TC. What I call "consciousness gone astray" and "mind games" in average modern mankind, Tolle calls "unconsciousness" and "ego" and "pain body" because he wants to protect the religious belief of TC. That is, he sees consciousness as something perfect and mystical rather than subject to evolutionary or emergent trial-and-error just like instincts. Other than that, I can fully understand Oprah's hearty endorsement of the author's ideas. Another lesser issue I have with the book's idea is that while immersing ourselves in the here-and-now can help us overcome the mind games and thus bring a lot of relief to sufferers, it seems to diminish our moral agency expressed through our way of dealing with the future. So de Bono's book supplies quite a contrast. But I trust we can enjoy the best of both worlds - i.e. get past the mind games & we're ready to plan our future & self-actualise: We're ready to use consciousness in the way originally 'intended'. Note: I see instinctive biases as a slightly separate issue that can often be overcome with computing devices, etc.
Thanks for sharing that! It's a bit of a different approach, isn't it - first and foremost because it doesn't sound easy (you're not going to win over followers of "The Secret", ha ha!) It's interesting in that most systems don't involve shifting back-and-forth (buy any book on diet, financial planning, organization, etc., and the message is "Do this for the rest of your life") but of course this shifting is what we all end up doing anyways, in accordance with real life. No one stays on the perfect diet forever, there's the time to eat that Christmas cheesecake.
In essence are you talking about the duel principles of life (builds organization, self-organizes,) vs. non-life (subject to entropy)? And somehow taking those core principles and structuring our own lives in a way that mirrors them?
Exactly! This is the essence of nature's self-emergence and of our self-actualisation (as moral agents within nature). We need entropy or provocation to upset the local equilibrium if we are to find a better way. We need Yin & Yang. Our losses and failures are not our enemies: Without them we cannot learn. The madness of consciousness gone astray is also our (global society's) teacher. How often do we hear about entrepreneurs that failed many times before they succeeded or rose up above particularly depressing circumstances? But most of us just want the easy way: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Or we look for other easy fixes such as a lottery ticket or another drink. It's self-defeating to stop dancing in a living, self-organising system. While I said before that we have to do and to be, the end focus of living systems can't remain to be - that is eventually death - it must be to do! But sometimes we get caught up in analysis, mind games, etc. and lose balance. I don't mean balance as a smooth middle path all the time. But I mean if we're locked into one Yin perspective, the balance comes from the opposite Yang perspective - both of which might be extreme and almost antinomous. Again from the book: The Zen Master, Sent–ts'an (? - 609 AD) said "If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between for and against is the mind's worst disease". The flexibility of the Emergent Method's approach (as opposed to the rigid good/evil dichotomy) is the key to arrival at such an egoless truth and personal moral congruence (or peace of mind, as opposed to Tolle's pain-body effects); Practice of the Emergent Method leads to moral humility and moral value veneration rather than their opposites.
The philosophy of Emergence does not advocate a passive emptiness/nirvana or an active and experiential involvement / 'sudden enlightenment in the slipstream' as ultimate truths. Moral congruence (and happiness and wellbeing) is found as we allow or enable the dual aspects of life (passive and active; introspective and extrospective; personal and social) to virtuously coalesce in the present moment and place and to dance across unfolding spacetime…
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Michael, I think maybe we would agree that this can easily become a sort of fixation, though, a diversion from the reality of the life in front of us. At an extreme this might be represented by those who embrace drugs and mysticism for the sole purpose of having That Big Realization where the meaning of it all is clear. It's a sort of siren's call, I think, if you let it overtake you. Of course, in some incarnations this same instinct leads to a lot of scientific progress, which is a good thing - but not the only thing.
What about a person who doesn't embrace drugs, mysticism, or other attempts to alter her mind, but does carefully consider which tools she has available to carry out a task as necessary as altering the mind, if for no other reason than to see things in a different light? Might they include certain drugs, perhaps mystical experience, meditation, group therapy . . . (I'm not sure what else.)? Certain of the effects of altering (and alternating between) brain-chemical processes can resemble an imagined process of another person entering your head. For instance, if I were to take a full dose of LSD (and I have no interest or intention of doing so, ever again), it would have certain predictable effects on how my brain functions. One result might be that it would seem as though I were inside someone else's head, or that someone else were inside mine. Taking things further, it seems entirely reasonable to assume that something approaching objective observation might be available to me due to a drastic change in my brain chemistry that allows me to look at my own thoughts as though I were another person.
Of course, the trick is to understand deep down that you are a biological entity just as a squirrel or sparrow is a biological entity. I know you know it, but to understand it deep down might result in moments of clarity much more objective than otherwise possible.
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. . . The concern I was trying to state, though (maybe a rather sci-fi type concern, I don't know) is the idea that the subconscious can want entirely different things than the conscious mind wants. If that's the case, it creates a bit of a problem in setting one's conscious goal, values, and intentions.
These kinds of things need not remain hidden, though. You can uncover all manner of mental things that are in need of revision, assuming you fully realize how illusory and delusional some of our cognitive habits are as we inherit them from our cultures. Our understanding of nature has grown vastly in an extremely short amount of time. As a result, many of our ancient, superstitiously ignorant mental habits remain within us in stark contrast to the actual state of affairs. Usual ways of operating mentally are, in a sense, antiquated. But we're habituated toward them, so what can we do but continue as we have?
One thing we can do is simply to recognize and commit to this kind of analysis. Then maybe we'll see some unraveling of our interiors that can be re-sewn into a new outfit. I've never tried to talk or write about any of this, and I hope you ask me for clarification if it's needed because I feel out in left field whenever I try to explain something subtle or unusual.
Susan Blackmore talks a lot about being a collection of memes - I suppose I wonder if that means we're always running on some sort of "old software" that we've picked up somewhere or other. nonverbal, as you said, from culture, childhood, may be genetics, wherever. And then, if we're a collection of memes, we can't clear them out entirely, can we, as we'd be left with nothing. In his Free Will book Gazzaniga brings up a similar concept, talking about how Amazon's programming may be somewhat analogous to a human mind in that it isn't a pre-set, linear set of directions, it's comprised of formulas designed to achieve a certain outcome. My point, I guess, is that I don't think I'm just being pessimistic in saying we can never entirely clear out all of these memes - in order to have any sort of goal-directed behavior, surely our minds have to be running on some sort of internal program.
I suppose consciousness can solve that problem, though, in that it's - well, conscious. So we're not robots running ancient software, if consciousness truly does allow for the ability to examine and scrutinize those memes.
Richard Dawkins, the originator of the concept of memes, wouldn't agree that we are captive to our memes (or genes)! See post of 03 Nov 201111:52 PM for the details (link below). As he said "We have the power to defy the selfish genes of our birth and, if necessary, the selfish memes of our indoctrination. We can even discuss ways of deliberately cultivating and nurturing pure, disinterested altruism—something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world. We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our own creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators." He saw "our capacity to simulate the future in imagination" as our mechanism of rebellion. So this is the crux of the issue: If consciousness gets caught up in introspective mind games, anxieties & concepts detatched from reality then it can't be clear or free to function properly - to rather accurately simulate the future in imagination. So ridding ourselves of Tolle's "pain body" is only part of the path to self-actualising. The second part is to really understand how we are as a species - i.e our strengths & opportunities and not just our weaknesses and threats. This is where I believe we need to understand the "good" (i.e. self-actualising) values of our birth & indoctrination; these we have no need to rebel against…
. . . I'd never really heard about drugs like LSD having therapeutic value or even being sort of mind-expanding until just recently. My only previous knowledge of them was that in college people would take massive amounts of such things at music festivals and wander around incoherently for hours before eventually waking up under a tree (always a tree!) with no memory of the day. It made me rather wary, but then I suppose that didn't represent the most responsible use in the world.
Lexie, I think we can only guess about potential positive uses of psychedelics, since they've been criminalized and thereby their use entirely unregulated. Before the feds cracked down on them, some psychologists had high hopes for LSD as a way for people to gain self-insight. Research of course came to an end other than maybe within the realm of CIA manipulation research. Actual use of the drug was, by default, relegated to people who didn't mind risking spending time in jail or prison. Bottom/out-of-sight folks, for the most part.
Just read an interesting post on Kenneth Benjamin's WisdomWebsite.com - the guy that started this topic. Seems somewhat related to what we're discussing here now so I posted a reply. Please check it out (and why not sign up to his email alerts while you're at it?)
PS: I'll get back to you later Lexie…
We just won the cricket. Yippee! (I'm an Aussie in Sydney).
First, since we are on a Sam Harris forum here, let me throw out the obvious question of religion. Couldn't one argue that religion is exactly the mechanism that Dr. Dawkins is describing there? And, while I hate to fall back on an argument like this, isn't there something to be said for sheer popularity? Meaning, religion is something that appears to spring to life and enjoy immense popularity in just about every culture during that culture's evolution. Couldn't the mere ubiquitous presence of religion indicate that this is the solution that nature has arrived at for this very problem? To that end, is the real solution to work towards "The Perfect Religion" for mankind, without stripping away God? Religions do change and morph with time and societal development, after all.
I don't think popularity or anything else is an argument for religion as it typically is – superstitious, elitist, almost exclusively backward-looking, arrogant with respect to 'ownership' of human virtues, etc. But if we could invent a new religion that would address all these issues head on, I might be for it! A kind of 'adult religion' in which each member accepts his/her moral agency and takes personal responsibility for human flourishing. In this case a belief in some kind of god heading it up wouldn't really matter that much. As I see it, atheism, agnosticism or belief is just a personally-chosen method of self-actualising. The choice to self-actualise is a far more weighty decision.
SH likes to say that it takes religion to make good people do bad things. It seems to me, though, that societal development also requires good people to do almost suicidally good things as well. Why be the one to speak up against your tyrannical, corrupt government leaders when it will almost surely get you killed? Would people do it without an allegiance to a "higher" authority?
This is an incredibly interesting point. It perhaps seems an irresistible argument for your new religion. But do we really need another appeal to a 'higher authority' (god or despot) in order to advance above our current state of consciousness-with-instincts? If we think we do, then maybe de Bono's observation is right "Everything is fine. But we are still heading in the wrong direction". We need new thinking. We need to face our frailty, our dependency on the environment and our responsibility for the problem & solution. And we need to realise our evolutionary (& probabilistic) destiny as limited moral agents. I believe that it will only be as we take on our own moral agency with the same fervor as we have seen in our god-obsessed past that we will advance. And this idea is not necessarily against some religious teachings. If Sam is right & we have no free will, just the illusion of it, then we need a very deep illusion!
Another point - how do we ever "know" that we are stripped of our selfish genetic impulses, rather than driving them deep underground? This is what I mean when I say that perhaps external measurement and validation is always needed to a degree.
Two points. 1. Nothing wrong with selfishness per se – all gods must be selfish! Our genes & memes aren't sometimes rendered faulty because of their selfishness – but because of the short-sighted biases & silly mind games. 2. Of course external measurement & validation (what I have called extrospection) must be part of the cycle of self-actualising, but it must be in balance with all else that defines us as a species (values-based introspection, self-reliant but risk-aware competitiveness & normative sociability). Our science-obsessed world refuses to accept that science has little to say & few solutions to offer with respect to these things, so it often resorts to belittling our subjectivity rather than circumspectly celebrating it.
Let me give an example of a common political issue - since it's in the thread, let's say legalization of certain drugs (responding to your thoughts here as well nonverbal!) Say I read all of the available data, and I conclude that all drugs should be illegal, and others, such as alcohol, should be more heavily regulated. I believe I have made an objective decision based on the obvious harm that these substances can cause via abuse, driving accidents, poor decision making, and so on. But have I? Or do I have an underlying, unconscious motive that caused me to highlight that portion of the data in my mind? Maybe I knew someone whose life was ruined by drugs and I have an unacknowledged disdain for them, or perhaps I have a close relative in law enforcement and am unconsciously thinking of them.
Now assume the opposite. Maybe I read all of the research and I assume that all drugs should be legalized. I believe I have made an objective decision based on the fact that criminalizing almost always leads to illegal trade that causes more problems than the drugs themselves. In addition, I note that this illegal trade appears to most heavily impact the poorest communities, and conclude that this is actually a form of discrimination against the disadvantaged. I focus more on the potential therapeutic benefits of certain substances. Again, have I been objective? Maybe deep down I'm simply curious about trying those things myself, and my mind has a hidden agenda in highlighting certain information and drawing certain conclusions.
Or say I take the balanced approach, and say drugs should be legalized with support for education, regulation, and procedures to promote responsible use. Well, perhaps the "real" answer is not this middle path, maybe objective research would in fact show that an all or nothing approach would be best. Perhaps in this case I have all of the above factors at the back of my mind, or I simply subconsciously pride myself on being the type of person who can see both sides of an issue.
Brilliant so far…
I just feel that truth is so subjective, like looking through the multi-lens eye of a fly. It can be viewed from many angles at many levels, perhaps the human mind is not even capable of seeing "the whole truth" at once. If this is the case, there must be some determining factor that specifies which slices we do see. Can we really know the nature of those factors?
This is obsession with pure truth-seeking again. Where is the respect for the values expressed in each scenario? Of course we can't see all truths at once. And neither can evolving, emerging nature: In fact it doesn't need to! This is why the dance of values is important. Does it really matter what slices of truth we currently miss? Did 'caveman truth' make him less able to express his values and self-actualise? No, not if he had his moral freedom.
Or do we end up saying "Wow, look at that, it turns out I'm pretty comfy and cozy here with all my needs met. That's just a coincidence, though, my opinions were based entirely on what was true and right, not on what would benefit me physically or psychologically."
Sounds like you're hinting at 'unavoidable' mind games here. Nietzsche lamented the social mores ("truths") that seem to lull us into a lazy moral comfort, and in some ways I can't disagree with him if that comfort is derived from our shirking of responsibility as subjective moral agents by surrendering it to social institutions. But if we are operating responsibly, then what is wrong if your values coincide with self-interest and don't disrespect other moral agents?
(An aside, getting out of argument mode for a moment - my personal resolution to the above is that humankind functions as a large organism that can't be viewed at the single person level any more than the heart could be viewed at the single cell level or the body could be viewed at the single organ level. We push and pull and debate and represent a diversity of sides, truths, needs and desires among ourselves, and hopefully a balance arises amongst the voices that speak for a wide variety of factors.)
Wow – this is one of the most interesting comments I've ever read! Can I use it? Matt Ridley, in his book "The Origins of Virtue" used the term "the inexorable coagulation of life" to describe the essential process going on in living nature. I think this was a great insight at the time and is ultimately inescapable. I'd just have one reservation with respect to your comment and the application of Matt Ridley's term to humanity. It's the problem of consciousness – its mind games and reticence to accept its moral agency. So if we fix the mind games and accept our subjective moral agency then there is nothing to stop the inexorable coagulation of life in ongoing human society. And there is nothing to contradict your view of humankind as an indivisible and balanced organism. But alas this is not the case: I think the contents of the Petri dish are in grave danger…
Last but not least, isn't consciousness itself the ultimate cause of short-sighted selfishness, as much as it could be a potential escape from it? Not ego, but consciousness, I mean. If I cut my finger, my finger hurts - not yours, not my neighbor's, not my second cousin's. If I have a delicious piece of chocolate cake, I alone get the sensation of tasting. So while we may strive to be egoless, in the end the only one experiencing the consequences of consciousness is the thing we call "I". How can we ever transcend that particular reality?
Indeed! We need to transcend consciousness's limitations by rebelling against the old "rock logic" (obsessive truth-seeking & justifying) and implementing de Bono's new "water logic" (value-finding & delivering). If we can't find a way to do this, I'm afraid it's all over. But I'm hopeful we can!
On a side note, I think this is one thing I find difficult about non-believer forums and communities. Most people decidedly do not like religion and are happy to be rid of it. I think I'm an odd duck amongst non-believers in that I was somewhat fond of my religion and am still fond of religious ideals such as the figure of Jesus, whether he was a real person who was a sort of bodhisattva or a personal ideal.
Yeah, I'm another one that doesn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Religion has been important to our evolution and important in my past life too. It has taught me a lot about what we are as humans. I actually learned a lot from reading the Bible. And I still appreciate the wonderful ideas in the O.T. from Job to Song of Solomon and in some of the N.T. But for all that, I clearly see myself as an atheist much more than agnostic or believer.
I believe that it will only be as we take on our own moral agency with the same fervor as we have seen in our god-obsessed past that we will advance.
Yes, I suppose that's true. I do think the idea of dogma, in general, might have played an important evolutionary role in this sense. Not just religious dogma, I think people can be moved to great self-sacrifice for other perceived "higher causes", and throughout our development, this was often necessary in order to make drastic and needed changes to the established order. On reflection, though, I think the range of "higher causes" we are capable of embracing is probably diverse and extends well beyond religious or political dogma, even though these are certainly common forms.
Again an incredibly interesting thought Lexie. When I said fervor, I was trying to purposely distinguish the idea from dogma - but perhaps you are right: We're not ready to advance to an enlightened fervor without going through a less enlightened era of dogma within this new "church" of self-organising & subjective moral agency! We somehow need to be emotionally attached to our new higher consciousness or it won't take off. But how can we have a dogmatic commitment to even life-promoting values without also incurring a loss of those same values? I suspect this has been the plague of every politicised & promulgated "ism" in the past. They start out with good intensions & ideas but then degenerate as followers get their minds off of the pure ideals and onto issues of personal power & mind games. So in the end I don't think we can have an efficient dogma - just a less efficient fervor…
Interesting, and I do agree to a point. I notice you've posted on TML though - how do you think this lines up with the idea of needing to bring value-based judgements into the realm of science? Do you think subjectivity needs to be embraced by science, or that to some degree this is a separate field of thought?
1. What is TML? 2. Science has a problem if it doesn't see its place in human nature (the extrospective part) & that nature's ongoing emergence. This objective & extrospective 'phase' can take its turn in leading our self-actualisation but it can't achieve it alone. Science doesn't supply subjective meaning or purpose to us 'gods'. It doesn't define our somewhat subjective social mores, even though I agree with Sam that it can have impact. Likewise it can supply our individuality with pointers about risk management but can't drive our innovative survival mechanisms. (If need is the mother of invention, then instinctive competition or CQ is its father). So science must be seen as separate 'mode' of human behaviour at the social level, but must also be integrated into a healthy & holistic view of humankind as a species with specific SWOTs.
Are you familiar with Kotler's marketing eras within a society? I think we are past the Production / Sales / Marketing and pure Customer Relationship eras now. We have perhaps been drifting within a Societal Marketing era for a while, where the hidden costs of financial / environmental / social (ab)use has come to be more clearly understood by savvy consumers. I think or at least hope the next marketing era will be the Marketing Values era, where it will no longer be sufficient for a corporation to provide isolated value through scientific/technological advancement. It will also have to make its moral values explicit and transparently show how its delivery of products and services fit those moral values. It will have to show it is part of humanity's solution and not part of the problem. I think this is what 'science' will have to do as well if we are to remain good little consumers…
Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't realize how far you were taking the concept of truth-seeking, I was seeing it in a more limited sense. That said, though, in a case where one must make an actual law (as above) then whose values are chosen and why?
This is an issue of governance, jurisprudence, etc. It's like asking me which form of government I would prefer. From my quote at the end of every post you probably get the idea of what I prefer - one that protects and helps make explicit and promulgates the innate or meta-cultural moral values of our species. But I think that no matter what form of government we currently have, it will do if we allow it to evolve towards the ideal. E.g. Is government-supported education or privately-sponsored education better? Doesn't really matter if there is movement in the system that enables the best system to emerge with time from CQ-IQ-SQ-EQ-. "Water-logic" doesn't get tied down to past truths; it emerges, like nature. Same applies to your problem of legalising illicit drugs. Our main hurdle is the "rock logic" in our systems of government rather than the systems themselves. Same with all our institutions, including religion (and philosophies - such as you saw in the is-ought debate. The divide between is & ought narrows if you allow water logic into the topic).
Initially I would be pro-freedom of choice in all these issues and more - not because I'm a libertarian, but because governments need to serve the people & not the other way around. Healthy society is a higher order of healthy individuals, not the other way around (similarly consciousness is a higher order or manifold of brain systems and not the other way around). Governments & political parties & courts should make their wide support of moral values & human flourishing every bit as explicit as corporations such as Johnson & Johnson does in its credo. How easy it would then be when the outcomes of actions taken were incongruent with stated values? With an accepted water logic, we would all adjust our understandings of how the world works and move on rather than get stuck in defending past decisions and past truths.
Like Western politicians did when they vehmently defended their decisions to attack Iraq based on a belief of held WMD's - after it was proven that no WMD's existed. Why couldn't they just admit that they misjudged reality, openly reflect on and learn from the experience and then move on? Why? Because of an overwhelming commitment to rock logic in our political leaders. They still see themselves as our elected despots or divine monarchs that can't make mistakes of truth & judgment. Is this our fault as citizens unwilling to accept our moral & civil agency when we authorise politicians to act on our behalf? Errors of judgment that are not a result of psychological imbalance, weakness of character or ignorance of moral values but only a result of limited human agency (we are not omnipresent or omniscient or omnipotent after all) should be seen as opportunities to learn & grow together in our humanity (leader & citizen). However this is probably being a little too kind to Bush, Blair & Howard. Moral brainstorming, or swimming in all four rivers of values, would have perhaps prevented the groupthink of some "hawks" at the time and given a larger voice to some of the "doves". It might also have moved focus off of the strictly moral intention of the decision to the moral outcome and likelihood of moral congruence afterwards. By doing so, it might have shifted focus to the "judgment of information" dimension or the "leadership ability" dimension a little more. These dimensions, while not strictly moral dimensions (although personal values drive them just as much) nevertheless were intimately tied to the feelings of moral congruence (or otherwise) before and after the outcomes of the decision to invade by way of pre-emptive strike. And maybe the strike would have gone ahead nonetheless - but the defenses of the decision afterwards would not have been so obtuse.
Another quandary I tend to have with the nebulous nature of truth are some of SHs thoughts in Lying. Perhaps I just over think such concepts, though! To my mind, living up to an ideal of pure honesty would require such a long string of qualifiers for any and every statement that it would be almost absurd. A bit of personal introspection seems to reveal that one can make statements that are all honest and true, in the moment, although seemingly rather contradictory! Again, due to this multi-layered, subjective nature of viewing truth in any given moment.
I haven't read his essay yet, but probably agree with you. But can you see that contradiction is not our great enemy? What is more contradictory or antinomic (maybe a better invention than 'antinomous' don't you think?) than infinity or one, and zero - the stuff that started it all? Deep truth & our perception of it is seldom uni-dimensional. This is why the CQ-IQ-SQ-EQ- dance is important. And why a mix of being/doing is important. We need Yin & Yang in a self-organising & emergent system. We have to allow our self-actualisation as individuals and societies (and a planet) to emerge from the tense antinomy of 1 & 0! What's the point of truth without meaning or mountains of data without organisation? And as we have perhaps seen in both Russia & Afganistan, what's the current gain of democracy (imposed from the top) to a nation that can't yet appreciate its meaning - derived from the civil values of its citizens?
I'm curious, you use the term mind games a lot - I assume I know what you're talking about, but could you specify this term a bit?
This is a big topic - can we discuss after you've had a chance to flip thru Tolle's book "A New Earth", pp 129-160, 164 & 182?


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| Mylilblackpen chapter 1 . 3/6/2013
Woah this is certainly a grab-you-by-the-shoulder piece. I have to say this is such strong piece because it had such strong imagery and powerful lexical choices, I have to admit the second stanza caused a real powerful impact on me, in my opinion. I especially liked the whore heart imagery like that was the main focus of piece, it was the cause of her behaviour like it let her become naive and follow wherever it takes her. I really like this, great piece!
| Guest chapter 1 . 3/3/2013
again, your words are so powerful. i particularly enjoyed the whore heart imagery- like DUH! That was the damn point of the peice:) lol.
the last line? DAMN! that was good, it kind of shatters you making you feel her pain.
| tolerate chapter 1 . 2/24/2013
Haha, I got to admit that the poem grabbed my attention the first thing I went through your latest poems. Oh god, the line: [She felt you, where there was nothing to feel.] was really painful. I don't think the comma was necessary but that line had the greatest impact not because of the bold but because of how you phrased it. Okay, the ending was a little... abrupt, I'd say. I feel that the ending you gave this poem wasn't complete and it didn't leave much of an impact behind. Still, the poem was good. Describing her feelings and the way she was desperate for love as a whore was a great comparison. I sort of like the rude words. Keep it up!

subset: commoncrawl


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Friday, August 15, 2008
An upside to the Olympics.
Now the Chinese are happily providing plenty of heartwarming stories on what happens when a totalitarian nation decides it needs athletes. "You! Leave the village and come with us. You are a gymnast now!"
8 comments:
You know I guess that is why I am not surprised that the Chinese are using underage kids and such. I grew up watching a East German female weighlifter with more body hair than some bears win a medal.
- 8:07 AM, August 15, 2008
It would be so much easier to build glorious People's communist pardise if people {little p} not insist on free will.
- 8:54 AM, August 15, 2008
- og said...
I also remember the former union, and the trouble they all went through to try to defect. I imagine there are people alive who remember similar things from prewar germany. do we never learn these lessons?
- 10:47 AM, August 15, 2008
- Cybrludite said...
Og, the only explanation which makes any sense to me about that is the sage bit of wisdom from Agent K. "A person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals, and you know it."
- 12:16 PM, August 15, 2008
- Breda said...
Tam - I found a video that shows that that's pretty much the truth of what China does to those girls. Poor things. (see blog, I'm too lazy to link)
- 12:59 PM, August 15, 2008
- Billy Beck said...
"...spectacles like the KGB having to guard their own athletes to keep them from defecting."
In 1989, I was privileged to run with the Bolshoi Ballet's first repertory tour of America. Eight weeks coast to coast, IIRC. You had to see these people. Almost none of them had ever seen the West before, and they were in a non-stop mall-mode for two straight months, with eyes as big as saucers.
We were on our way east with two days off before El Paso, Texas, when two of the corps dancers disappeared for almost the whole two days. You had to see that panic. The FBI turned up, and we discovered who on the tour was KGB. Everybody got grilled, and then these two kids showed up.
They'd gone off shopping for cowboy boots by themselves and gotten lost in America. It was hilarious and very poignant, but not everyone thought so at the time. There were some really tight jaws behind that scene.
- 5:30 PM, August 15, 2008
- Carl H said...
As I said earlier this week...
Moose and Squirrel - 0
- 5:18 PM, August 16, 2008
The entire process seems quite Orwellian. The NBC talk robot said these kids had been confiscated from their families at age 3. Anybody know what kind of test parameters show Olympic prowess at age 36 months?
Or do they just grab 5,000 at random and winnow them down to the 5 or 6 they need?
- 1:18 AM, August 17, 2008


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text: RFP #1087 - Promenade - Concrete Sidewalk Replacement Bid Opening Date: April 23, 2013 Pre-Bid Meeting will be held on Wednesday, March 20, 2013 at 10:00A.M. at 855 Valley Road, Suite 101, Clifton NJ 07013. A Site Visit is scheduled for the same day, March 20, 2013, following the Pre-Bid meeting. Bidders are advised that attendance at both the Pre-Bid Meeting and Site Visit is strongly recommended. No special consideration will be provided to any bidder who does not attend the Pre-Bid Meeting. Bid Opening Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 at 10:00A.M. in the Department of Finance and Treasury Conference Room, Suite 101, 855 Valley Road, Clifton, NJ 07013.RFP #1087 (PDF Document)Addendum #1 (PDF Document)Addendum #2 (PDF Document) Tweet Media: RFP #1087 (pdf) Addendum #1 (pdf) Addendum# 2 (pdf) Article Created: March 14 2013 Article Last Edited: April 9 2013


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Ancient burial site discovered in East MalaysiaAugust 4th, 2008 - 2:27 pm ICT by ANI
Kuala Lumpur, August 4 (ANI): An ancient burial site, believed to be from the Neolithic period, has been discovered in Batu Niah in Sarawak, East Malaysia.
It was found by a research team from the Centre For Archaeological Research Malaysia, Universiti Sains Malaysia (USM) and the Sarawak Museum Department at Gua Kain Hitam in the Niah-Subis limestone hills in Batu Niah, Miri division.
According to Sarawak Museum Department deputy director Ipoi Datan, the excavations at the site, funded by the National Heritage Department in 2007 and the USM Research University Grant last year, has so far uncovered more than eight human skeletons, dating back 2,000 to 3,000 years ago.
The human skeletons as well as the associated artifacts such as pottery, ornaments and food remains like shells and animal bones are currently being analyzed in order to extract more information about the burials and lifestyles of the ancient people who lived in the Niah-Subis region during that time, he said.
Datan said that the new finding would not only enrich knowledge on the early history of Sarawak and the nation but also expected to attract more local and foreign tourists to visit the site, which is located in the Niah National Park.
The Sarawak Museum Department has asked for public cooperation in not disturbing or encroaching into the site as the finds had no commercial value but only contained valuable research and academic significance. (ANI)
Tags: ancient burial, animal bones, archaeological research, burial site, burials, early history, east malaysia, excavations, heritage department, human skeletons, ipoi, limestone hills, malaysia universiti, national heritage, neolithic period, niah national park, public cooperation, sarawak museum, universiti sains malaysia, valuable research


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text: Nearly $500,000 in federal housing recovery funds will help three Coastal Georgia communities get homebuyers into foreclosed and abandoned properties.Last month, Brunswick received $237,000, Darien $43,000 and Camden County $133,000 to purchase, repair and make down payments for homes in neighborhoods hit hardest by foreclosure."We're very excited," said Diana Smith, director of the Camden's office of strategic planning. "It will stabilize neighborhoods that have empty houses by filling them with life."Money for the projects comes from the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008, which Congress passed in July. The law was designed to stem foreclosures by lending money to struggling homeowners to help refinance their mortgages.A portion of that money has also been given to state neighborhood stabilization programs that provide buyer assistance for homes once foreclosures have occurred.Brunswick, Darien and Camden County, along with the city of Fitzgerald, jointly applied for the grant though Georgia's Department of Community Affairs. Award amounts were based upon foreclosure statistics for each community.Brunswick hopes to purchase five foreclosed homes, rehabilitate them, and sell them to people who meet income requirements for affordable housing assistance, said Brunswick Community Development director Eric Van Otteren."The potential is that with as little as a $40,000 or $50,000 mortgage you could purchase a home," he said.Properties should be ready for homebuyers by mid-summer.A new city housing initiative could keep the price of the houses discounted for future home buyers too, Van Otteren said.Brunswick wants to establish a land trust that would retain ownership of the land purchased and would only sell the house that sits upon it. Home-owners would pay monthly rent to the land trust. But the rent and house mortgage combined would still be less than a mortgage payment from purchasing both the property and house, he said.In Darien, neighborhoods are blighted more by dilapidated houses than by new but vacant homes, said Community Development director Frank Feild.With its $43,000, Darien plans to purchase two condemned properties and tear the houses down. Using other grant money, the city will build new houses on the lots to match the existing neighborhood.The houses, which will sell for an estimated $100,000, are directed toward moderate income families."Whoever buys them will get a very good deal," Feild said. "You are going to get a house that would normally sell on the market for $140,000 to $150,000."Camden County plans to use its $133,000 allocation to help buyers make down payments on foreclosed homes."Since it's a smaller chunk of money, providing down payment assistance will allow us to help more people," said Smith.The money can provide nine home buyers with $12,000 each, she said.Camden will target subdivisions that have been hit by clusters of foreclosures for the down payment assistance. A year ago, only 4 percent of homes sold in the county were foreclosures, Smith said. Now they make up 30 percent of the homes sold."There are a lot of families out there that can afford the mortgage payment to purchase a home. But because of stricter lending practices, they can't afford the down payment," Smith said. "That's where this help can make a difference."


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Pros: Refreshing, lightly sweet, only 20 calories. Distilled water, no chemicals. Nicely designed bottle.
Cons: Expense. Feels kind of decadent to indulge in too often.
I wish I drank more water. It's one of those facts of my life: I know I should drink more water than I do, but I often lack the discipline to do it or just plain forget. I drink a glass with meals and sip at a bottle during the morning at the office, but all in all, I'm not coming anywhere near the 6-8 glasses per day that I know would benefit my health, keep me hydrated, and help me lose weight.
And true confession: I've been drinking soda again (that's "pop" for all you midwesterners out there). This is frankly disheartening to me, because it's an old habit I thought I'd broken the back of during my pregnancy and subsequent two years of nursing an infant/toddler. I cut caffeine completely out of my diet, and soda almost completely too, which was a big deal because I had a weakness for both. In the past year or so, however, I've fallen back into bad habits...in part out of stress. Too often soda becomes an addiction: something I drink because the sweetness and fizziness of it is like a "comfort drink." I do remind myself frequently that soda tends to de-hydrate not re-hydrate my body, and I ask myself why I consider something not good for me to be a kind of reward? So I struggle.
I've tried lots of different ways to make myself drink more water. Tracking how many glasses I have per day. Adding a little lemon or lime juice to the glass. Seltzer water. Seltzer with a splash of juice. In general, the little touch of fruit juice helps me want to drink more, but I still don't drink enough. Some of this is tied to my lack of discipline in other areas, like exercise, but that's another story!
Recently I was in the health section of the market where we do our main grocery shopping, and some very cool looking bottles caught my eye. They were clear plastic with brightly colored transparent labels which read Glaceau FruitWater. I'd never heard of the the manufacturer or the brand, but I definitely felt drawn to check out those bottles. Someone in marketing is grinning gleefully as I type this! The name "fruitwater" struck my interest too.
I expected this to be one of those flavored waters that's become all the rage in the U.S. lately. And it is a flavored water, but happily, it's a very simple one with NO artificial sweeteners. All you'll find in here is "vapor distilled/deionized water" with a little bit of sugar ("crystalline fructose"), natural flavor, citric acid, and some electrolytes. It is perhaps a bit disingenuous to tout this water as "mother nature approved" (which the label does) since there's actually no fruit juice in it, though in smaller type they do let you know there's no fruit juice. But all in all, there are far worse things I could be putting in my body, and when you come right down to it, it's mostly water.
And frankly, it's delicious. I've tried two flavors so far, grape and raspberry. It also comes in lime and peach, which I'm looking forward to trying. So far the raspberry is my favorite. It happens to be one of my favorite flavors anyway, and they got this just right -- tart, not too sweet. It does sort of make me wonder how on earth they get it tasting so raspberry without putting any actual raspberry juice in it (hmmm...) but I'm not going to push that question too hard.
Both the raspberry and the grape have only the faintest touch of sweetness and flavor. Not enough to make you feel like you're drinking anything too sugary, just enough to deal with that sweet tooth craving and to make drinking it a refreshing pleasure. Frankly, at only 20 calories per 20 oz. bottle, there can't be that much sugar in there. I liked the taste enough that I found myself finishing the full 20 oz. bottle much more quickly than I usually finish a similar bottle of plain water. And then wishing I had more!
Besides the nice design of the labelling, which among other things provides a faint cast of color to the clear water inside, I like the shape and feel of the bottle. It's slightly heavy, but has a good, wide drinking mouth with a secure twist on cap, making these good bottles to rinse and use again.
The biggest drawback for me personally is the price, which admittedly is not bad. But I'm on a tight budget these days, and believe me, flavored water is a splurge. The normal price at our store is about $1.50 per bottle, though I got my on sale for $1 each. That's not that expensive relative to other plain bottled waters or to sodas. If you're going to spend the money on soda anyway, then this could be an excellent replacement product. For roughly the same amount in your budget, you could be drinking a lightly flavored water with far fewer calories than regular soda, and far fewer chemicals than either diet or regular soda. That's not a bad tradeoff. Glaceau has that angle figured out too, as they pitch fruitwater (on the label) as a lightly sweetened alternative to diet drinks whose artificial sweeteners may trick our bodies into craving more sweets.
What makes me feel a little guilty is that, if I could just find the self-discipline to drink more plain water, or to take the time to add a spritz of real fruit juice to my water, I wouldn't need to resort to such tricks. I'm frustrated that I'm stuck enough on bad, sugary things that I need to wean myself off this way. Only in an affluent country would you ever see this kind of product. A lot of people in the world have no decent, clean water supply at all, and would be in awe of the cleanliness and easy availability of my tap water (whose taste I've been known to complain about, and which I filter through a pitcher filtration system). So I'm trying to be conscious that most people in the world don't have the kinds of choices I do, to be grateful for what I've got, and to not waste money on gimmicks.
With all that said, I do think that Glaceau Fruitwater is an excellent product for people like me who are trying to drink more water, put fewer chemicals in my body, and slowly but surely learn to do without so much sugar. I won't buy it all the time, but two or three bottles a week, in place of sodas, seems like a pretty good investment in my health.
A big thank you to bops_mom for adding this to the database for me so quickly!
~befus, 2006


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Vatican message to Hindus stresses religious freedom
October 20, 2011
An annual Vatican message to the world's Hindus emphasizes the importance of religious freedom—perhaps reflecting concern in Rome about the continued violence against the Christian minority in India.
"Religious freedom is the answer to religiously motivated conflicts in many parts of the world," the Vatican message says. The statement notes that religious freedom is among the most fundamental of human rights. "When it is jeopardized or denied, all other human rights are endangered."
In a passage that could be read as critical of Indian civic leaders, the Vatican states that the fight to religious freedom imposes "a serious obligation on the part of civil authorities" to protect that right. India's Christians have often complained that local police have failed to respond when Hindu extremists engaged in mob violence.
The Vatican also specifically states that religious freedom "includes the freedom to change one's religion." Hindu nationalists in India have bitterly complained about Christian missionary efforts.
The Vatican statement was timed for the Hindu feast of Deepvali, which celebrates the victory of light over darkness. The statement was released by the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue, and signed by Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran and Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata, the president and secretary of that body.
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DIY: BMW Short Shift Kit (SSK) for 335i
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Drives: 04 STI, 08 GTI, 08 E90335xi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
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Completed the installation of the SSK on my 2008 E90 335xi tonight.
The bad news is there is practically no way to access the clip from below the car. The good news is you don't have to get under the car.
First of all what I found on the xi was not quite like the install that started this thread. There are no pieces of foam, carpet, etc that need to be removed. The aluminum bracket for the ball and cup are very different, spherical shaped, with access only from the drivers side.
The biggest finding, you can install the clip with a needle nose pliers through the ball/cup opening before you snap the cup in place. What I don't know is if you can remove the clip from the stock shifter that way because by the time I figured this out I had removed the entire console. If you can remove the clip through the same opening this would be a 30 minute install at most.
The stock vs short shifter are very close to the same overall length, only the pivot ball location is different which changes the leverage ratios. I installed the shifter with it tipped toward the back of the car as when I layed the stock and short shifter together the angles matched almost perfectly that way.
Use some spray silicone inside the rubber boot to slip it over the new shifter, glides right on.
I also installed the M shift knob so I can't say how much difference just the shifter makes but I can say together it is a huge improvement. It definitely got rid of the "I'm shifting a farm truck" feeling.
Install was kind of a bitch since I was in exploration mode but if it is possible to remove the clip without removing the console this would be a very easy install. The next person who tries it will have to answer that question.
I have a lot of pics but I will just post a couple tonight.
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Know more about this business than we do? Cool! Please submit any corrections or missing details you may have.Help us make it right
Be the first AL.com user to add photos or videos of R & R Refrigeration & Air Conditioning
R & R Refrigeration & Air Conditioning can be found at Way Back Rd 644. The following is offered: Air Conditioning. The entry is present with us since Sep 8, 2010 and was last updated on Nov 12, 2013. In Dadeville there are 3 other Air Conditioning. An overview can be found here.
R & R Refrigeration Inc is located at 582 Way Back Rd in Dadeville and has been in the business of Refrigeration Contractor since 1986.


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There was a hoar frost that morning but down by the river there was a beautiful fog lifting. I wanted to share these photos with you again as at that time, being a relatively new blogger, I only had a few followers and most of you didn't get to see these then.
We had quite a snowfall a few days before that and a couple weeks or so after I took these photos we got 100 mm of rain in one day which caused serious flooding and millions of dollars in damage to roads, homes and properties. It was quite devastating for those affected.
However, nature can be beautiful as well as terrible. These photos show her beauty. I hope you enjoy them.
I haven't edited these photos in any way. This is what I saw through my camera lens.


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Not only do I refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is the son of god...
January 11 2012 at 10:29 AM
Doc Strange
Response to
If anyone here wants to contend with me then do so
... but I also don't believe there is a god to be the son of. But don't feel singled out. I also don't believe in the gods of the Hindus. Oh, and vampires. Oh, and unicorns.
Tim said:
Maybe I should be more care free, and not care if MONDO walks off a fucking cliff in the night!
Nice strawman argument, Tim. If someone doesn't believe in your imaginary friend, then they can't care for other people. No offense, Tim, but... you're full of shit.
I care if Mondo walks of a cliff in the night, and I don't believe in your imaginary friend. So, you're wrong. Yet again.
Don't you hate being wrong ALL the time?
At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds
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Mark Ingram Atelier commissioned watercolors by Sara Singh to create a stunning suite of papers. Dempsey & Carroll artfully translated the paintings into a one-of-a kind correspondence and entertaining collection. The Mark Ingram Atelier Fine Papers Collection is a mixture of hand-engraving and flat-printing, on our white, 100% cotton paper. The attention to detail extends to the hand-painted beveled edges and hand-lined envelopes.
The composer cards include hand-engraved and flat-printed floral designs, in warm purple and green tones, with a hint of gold. Our opulent 6-ply paper is edged with a rich gold hand-painted bevel and the envelopes are finished with a purple watercolor design.
These cards are the perfect gift for a loved one or to add to your personal paper wardrobe.
Mark Ingram has long had an affinity for fashion and bespoke design, and his correspondence collection easily evolves into a paper wardrobe.
Each box includes 10 cards and 10 hand-lined envelopes.
Your order will ship in 5 business days.
Item Number:7C6-W-MIAP
Border Color:Gold
Envelope Liner:Custom Design
Ink Color:Mixed Media
Paper Color:White
Dimensions:#7 Correspondence Card - 7.25" x 3.75"
Paper Weight: 6 Ply
Price Per Set: Sets are $110 each.
10 cards and 10 hand-lined envelopes


text: In message: <87fxhgt4tq.fsf%snark.cb.piermont.com@localhost> "Perry E. Metzger" <perry%piermont.com@localhost> writes: : : David Laight <dsl%netbsd.org@localhost> writes: : > Log Message: : > Remove all the __P() from sys (excluding sys/dist) : > Diff checked with grep and MK1 eyeball. : > i386 and amd64 GENERIC and sys still build. : : For future reference, a good way to check such things is to make : sure there is no difference in the binaries generated after the : change. md5 *.o > /tmp/1 rm *.o make md5 *.o > /tmp/2 diff /tmp/[12] :) Warner


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Writing about Alex Smith seems soooo 2006. It seems most fans have simply moved on. But we can't leave the subject without a brief review of what Smith went through during his three-plus years with the 49ers, and since Smith will leave without becoming the next great quarterback, our review is marked by mistakes.
MISTAKE No. 1: The 49ers asked Smith to roll a ball through his legs, and jump rope, to basically act like a performing bear before they chose him with the first overall pick in the 2005 draft. Smith did it without hesitation. The other quarterback they considered, Aaron Rodgers, questioned why he had to do those funky exercises.
"As (Smith) was (doing the drills) you could tell he was thinking, 'Well, I'm not going to ask any questions. I going to do what they tell me to do.' That was important to me," 49ers coach Mike Nolan said at the time.
Wrong read by Nolan. At quarterback you want a strong personality, a somewhat combative guy who will question you. You don't want a sheep. Do you think the edgy J.T. O'Sullivan would have washed Nolan's car if asked? No. Based on that situation, the 49ers should have taken Rodgers, not Smith.
MISTAKE No. 2: Smith never should have played as a rookie. He came from a spread offense in the Mountain West Conference to a team with a revamped offensive line, suspect defense and without a stud no. 1 receiver. The guy hadn't taken a quarterback drop since junior high. All those things aside, if the 49ers had spoken and listened to his coach at Utah, Urban Meyer, they would have known Smith should have sat. Meyer's famous quote about Smith being "non-functional" until he knows what's going on should have told the 49ers that he needed a year to figure it out. And what did the 49ers gain by playing him? He threw 11 interceptions before throwing his first touchdown pass on a team that won four games.
MISTAKE No. 3: The team failed to find him a good receiver – Brandon Lloyd, Johnnie Morton, Antonio Bryant, Darrell Jackson, Rasheed Marshall and Marcus Maxwell didn't last.
MISTAKE No. 4: The offensive line was always in flux.
MISTAKE No. 5: Nolan completely mishandled Smith's injury last year. Smith is the one who had to go to Nolan to say his shoulder wasn't coming around and that he was hurting the team. Nolan should have known this and sidelined Smith long before Smith spoke up. Even when Smith told Nolan, his shoulder was affecting his play, Nolan didn't listen. Instead, Nolan thought Smith should play through the injury while the losses piled up.
MISTAKE No. 6: Smith never should have taken his case to the media. Even though he felt isolated because his coach was oblivious to his health, Smith should have just played, despite the physical and psychological cost. But Smith never should have been put in that predicament.
MISTAKE No. 7: Nolan and the 49ers in general were on a campaign to revive Smith's confidence this summer. Nolan consistently said that Smith was improving under Mike Martz. Then, yesterday, when Smith got placed on injured reserve, Nolan refused to answer any questions about his one-time franchise quarterback. Nothing about his supposed improvement, his work ethic, his earnestness. It made Nolan's earlier comments about Smith's improvement seem hallow.
MISTAKE NO. 8: Smith had few flashes that warranted his first-round selection.
INJURY UPDATE: CB Donald Strickland (knee) and C Eric Heitmann (shoulder) were held out. Heitmann will practice tomorrow. The Seahawks are still wondering who will start at receiver for them. Bobby Engram and Deion Branch are both out. CB Marcus Trufant made an appearance on the Thursday injury report with a hand injury.


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"There are very few things in life that are able to span centuries." This documentary, "California Forever," shows us why California state parks do.
California Forever is a two-part documentary series about California state parks coming soon to PBS in Fall 2012, presented by KQED, San Francisco. For more information visit cal4ever.com/.
California Forever is produced by Backcountry Pictures – where the story begins at the end of the road.
California State Parks Foundation is proud to support this project.


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Have Relationship Questions? Ask a Counsellor for Answers ASAP
Seeking expert testimony is a sign of strength. A personal relationship with a caring professional is proven clinically effective.
Dear friend,
I believe that I can help you.
What you are describing here seems to be a relationship that has lost its romantic aspects..
Your partner has become a man who has so little love or affection for you that he can show you no affection or interest.
Furthermore, he has contacted another woman for whom he once had feelings and is now courting her on the sly. He will be much more careful the next time.
If she knew how he really was she would have nothing to do with him.
He has given you a meaningless reply about how he would do anything to sort things out, but these are empty words that will not change anything.
You say that you have not asked hims to do a great deal with your 6 year old son. Do you hear how that sounds? If he has no interest in his son either, then he seems to be devoid of caring for others.
He may have become mentally ill with depression that all he can do is overeat and indulge himself and disregard his family.
You are responding as if it is your fault, and that by being a more slavish housewife that you will fix things. That is not the right approach. A good partner would be helping you and being active and loving in raising his little boy and caring about his wife, and giving her love and affection and satisfaction.
It is time for you to be proactive - to take action to break this deadlock one way or the other. You are a passive victim right now, and you are not going to fix this by letting it continue.
You must tell him that this cannot go on if you want the relationship to continue. You must INSIST that he goes to couples therapy with you, and suggests that he needs to also go to individual therapy because he is showing signs of having depressive disorder.
If he refuses you then have two options left:
-resign your life to that of an unfulfilled wife who lives to be a servant to a man who does not love her, or
-separate from him or divorce him and start a new chapter in your life. He will be obliged to pay for child support and the local council will help you out.
Faced with this possibility, he may go for help and you may be able to fix things. If you don't confront him forcefully you will continue to have an unhappy life.
I shall keep you in my prayers for the wisdom, strength, and courage to move forward with your life by forcing the issue one way or the other. You can no longer settle for empty promises.
May God give you strength.
Warm regards,
Elliott, MAE, LPCC, NCC, CCMHC


text: When you're doing sets do stuff, do you usually note how much faster tune A is it to tune B? or do you just leave it more down to skill, and take it as it comes? It would be interesting to know how much some of the really quick DJ's, plan ahead..


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Hi, I have noticed you use dollar signs in the W3C site to remark a date or the author, for example: Last Modified: $Date: 2007/02/13 20:18:04 $ by $Author: ijacobs $ At first I thought it was a mistake, but I have been regarding it in so many pages, that I now believe it is not an error. I have tried to google for an answer about what they are and how they can be used, but I cannot find one. My question is just that: what does the dollar sign mean and if it is a convention or recommendation of the W3C. Best regards, Olga Revilla -- Olga Revilla www.itakora.comReceived on Thursday, 28 June 2007 12:23:20 UTC
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:15:36 UTC


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Be the first YellowBot user to add photos or videos of Mountain Spring Ranch
Mountain Spring Ranch is located at 204 Remedy Dr in Marshall and has been in the business of Boarding Services, Horses: Racing And Non-racing since 2007.
Mountain Spring Ranch is located at 204 Remedy Dr, Marshall, AR. This business specializes in Horse Training.
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Armstrong International
Business Type: Manufacturer, Service
Description: OUR INTELLIGENT, INDUSTRY-LEADING SOLUTIONS ARE TRUSTED ACROSS THE GLOBE, BY THOUSANDS OF COMPANIES IN A VAST AND EXPANDING RANGE OF INDUSTRIES. All over the world, the industry-leading solutions of Armstrong International are hard at work, saving time, money and energy for thousands of... (more)
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Address: ,, , FL
Address: 8545 Commodity Circle, Orlando, FL
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Description: BakerCorp is an industry leader in temporary containment tanks, pump, filtration and shoring equipment rental solutions. With operations in the United States, Canada and Europe, BakerCorp provides rental solutions to a wide range of industries including Oil & Gas, Refining, Pipeline,... (more)
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Address: 3436 Old Kings Rd., Jacksonvile, FL
Address: 1806 Turkey Creek Rd., Plant City, FL
Ace Pump & Supply
Address: 6013 Johnson Street, Hollywood, FL
Business Type: Distributor
Acme Dynamics, Inc.
Address: 10777 Phillips Highway PO Box 1780, Plant City, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer
All Prime Pumps
Address: 803 North Myrtle Ave., Jacksonville, FL
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Barney's Pumps, Inc.
Address: 2965 Barney's Pumps Place PO Box 3529, Lakeland, FL
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Boss Pump & Well
Address: 9431 Hwy. 301 S., Riverview, FL
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Chemical Containers, Inc.
Address: 413 ABC Road, Lake Wales, FL
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Cole Industrial & Technical Supply, Inc.
Address: 5604 N. 50th Street, Tampa, FL
Business Type: Distributor
Complete Dewatering Pumps & Wellpoints, Inc.
Address: 710 W. Park Avenue, Edgewater, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer
D & D Machine & Hydraulics, Inc.
Address: 10945 Metro Parkway, SE, Fort Myers, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer, Service
Daico Water Management
Address: PO Box 1362, Valrico, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer, Distributor
Don Wood, Inc.
Address: 6501 Old Winter Garden Rd, Orlando, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer
Florida Bearings, Inc.
Address: 10050 NW 116th Way, Suite 1, Miami, FL
Business Type: Distributor
Flow Components & Equipment Supply
Address: 604 Prairie Industrial Pkwy. PO Box 735, Mulberry, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer, Distributor
Description: Flow Components & Equipment Supply is an industry- leading manufacturer and distributor of Flow, Pressure, Temperature, and Level products including rubber & spiral-wound gaskets, rubber hoses, meta-braided hoses, pumps, mechanical seals, compression packing, and industrial lubricants. We... (more)
GloTech Corporation
Address: 6810 Lyons Technology Circle, Suite 100, Coconut Creek, FL
Business Type: Manufacturer
Grainger Industrial Supply
Business Type: Distributor
Description: Grainger helps customers save time and money by providing them the right products to keep their facilities up and running. Grainger's customers are 2.0 million businesses and institutions in 157 countries. While each customer has a unique facility to operate and a different problem to solve, our... (more)
Address: 101 S. Wickham Rd. Branch 581, West Melbourne, FL
Address: 10900 SW Quail Roost Dr. Branch 485, Miami, FL


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By Keith Idec
Mikey Garcia could've pursued a shot at a less formidable featherweight champion than Orlando Salido.
The unbeaten contender from Oxnard, Calif., wants to be acknowledged, however, as the 126-pound champion in boxing, a distinction defeating Salido can earn him Saturday night in New York. The 25-year-old Garcia (30-0, 26 KOs) will challenge Mexico's Salido (39-11-2, 27 KOs, 1 NC) as part of HBO's "World Championship Boxing" tripleheader from The Theater at Madison Square Garden.
"We could've been a champion maybe a year ago or more, but you would've had to look at the right opponent, try to pick the right title defenses," Garcia told BoxingScene.com. "People won't really recognize you as the champ until you beat somebody who's well-deserving of that, so you can be recognized as the champion. Right now, the man to beat is Salido.
"If [promoter] Top Rank, my management team, my brother [trainer Robert Garcia] and everybody believes in me, that I have what it takes to beat him, and I also know that I have enough to beat him, let's do it. It's just the perfect time. They believe in me and I know it's the right moment."
Garcia is completely confident he can overcame the experienced Salido because he hasn't been rushed into a title fight. He believes beating Jonathan Barros (34-4-1, 18 KOs), Bernabe Concepcion (31-6-1, 17 KOs) and Matt Remillard (23-1, 13 KOs) over the past two years has more than readied him for facing Salido, who upset Puerto Rico's Juan Manuel Lopez (31-2, 28 KOs) to win the WBO featherweight title in April 2011 and stopped him again in their rematch March 10.
"I'm definitely very excited, not just because I'm fighting for a world title, but because I really feel that I earned it," Garcia said. "It's a great opportunity and I believe I have everything it takes to win and to become a world champion. It's what I've worked for, I've earned it and I don't plan on wasting this opportunity. I plan on taking advantage of the opportunity that's in front of me."
The mild-mannered Garcia realizes, though, that Salido is the best opponent he'll have faced since he turned pro in July 2006.
"He's definitely the champion right now in the division," Garcia said. "He's recognized as the best, probably, in the division. He's had victories people weren't expecting. He upset Lopez twice. He's tough. He's fought everyone in the division. He's a very experienced fighter. He can do a lot of things. He can box, he can brawl, he can exchange punches and he can come back from getting knocked down and still win a fight. He's a champion for a reason and he deserves respect."
Keith Idec covers boxing for The Record and Herald News, of Woodland Park, N.J., and BoxingScene.com. He can be reached on Twitter @Idecboxing.


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yep i know. im on the bandwagon. after hours of research and trying to understand the 50 sub genres(who made all these up, really?). ive determined i mostly like electro and electro house. Daft Punk is too vanilla for me. from sampling some stuff, i like :
Martin Garrix
Knife Party
The Prodigy
Rob Zombie EDM remix stuff
would be cool if anyone could suggest stuff like it would be great! thanks in advance


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Orlando, FL – The Orlando Magic will hold their 2012 training camp at the Amway Center in Orlando, beginning Tuesday, October 2. In addition, the Magic have signed free agents Armon Johnson (#1, 6-3, 195, 2/23/89, Nevada) and DeQuan Jones (#20, 6-8, 221, 6/20/90, Miami-FL). The roster currently stands at 19 players (roster to follow).
Practices will be held on the Magic practice court at the Amway Center twice per day from October 2-4 from 10 a.m. until approximately noon, then and again from 5 p.m. until approximately 7 p.m. All sessions are closed to the public.


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Ok, I have been to the doc. several times and they can't seem to figure out what is causing my problems. I have been having these symptoms for a few years now and it's really starting to worry me.
My symptoms are, Sometimes when I close my eyes it will feel like I am spinning and the longer I keep them closed the faster the spinning gets, and it starts making me sick to my stomache. It doesn't matter if I am laying down, sitting up, or standing. The spinning feeling gets so bad that I have to sit down if I am standing or I feel like I'm gonna fall down. I have figured out on my own that I am hypoglycemic, could this be a symptom of diabetes, and if so, how can I get the doctor to figure it out? Thanks for the help.


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Cornerstone Bancshares Inc. narrowed its losses, cut its loan volume and began issuing more stock last year.
But the Chattanooga bank reported Friday it still lost more than $4.7 million, or 73 cents per share, in 2010.
After profitable quarters in the spring and summer, Cornerstone directors took a fourth-quarter loss by putting more money aside for loan and lease losses. The bank also wrote off $2.5 million of its "goodwill" previously attached to its 1997 purchase of the former Bank of East Ridge.
Goodwill is an accounting adjustment that does not affect the cash flow of the bank.
"We had positive cash flow from operating activities all four quarters of 2010, which was a dramatic turnaround from the previous year," Cornerstone President Frank Hughes said.
Cornerstone trimmed its loan portfolio by $51 million last year to $285.2 million at the end of the year. The bank has assets of $440 million and operates five offices in Chattanooga and a loan production office in Dalton, Ga.
The bank boosted its loan loss reserves to $9.1 million - above the level of most peer banks - to cover more problem loans stemming from the recession, Hughes said.
To fortify its capital position, Cornerstone launched a convertible, preferred stock offering last fall. The offering will continue through June.
"Our goal is the further strengthen Cornerstone's foundations, so that we are solidly positioned to take advantage of the opportunities that lie ahead, for many years to come," Cornerstone Chairman Miller Welborn said.


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This is a story about a woman. And the truck driver who mistook her for a prostitute. The old man she robbed and the hunters who smuggled her across the border. The woman whose name she stole, the wife who turned a blind eye. This is the story of a mother searching for her child.
This is a story you cannot stop thinking about.
©2010 Lloyd Jones (P)2010 John Murray
"Ideal book for an audio book"
An intriguing plot which kept me guessing more than I expected. Told in the first person by consecutive witnesses, we don't actually hear from the herione untill towards the end. The narators used for each separate segement all sound exactly right for the characters they are portraying and are all of a very high standard. The plot reveal towards the end requires a certain suspension of disbelief but by then I was prepared to forgive the author as she'd hung such a good story and characterisation on it.
This is a wonderful listen: beautifully written and read. Mind you, it's one of the few times I wish I had the book to hand. When I got to the end, I wanted to flick back pages and remind myself of the different characters' accounts. But don't let that put you off. It's a poignant, heartwarming story with so many threads and ideas. I know I will listen to this again in the future, and that is rare for me!
Report Inappropriate Content
If you find this review inappropriate and think it should be removed from our site, let us know. This report will be reviewed by Audible and we will take appropriate action.


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What classifies a winery as boutique? The definition is quite subjective, but we feel it's a winery that produces wine on a small scale (less than 5,000 cases per year) with unusual, unique and invigorating wine selections. If you're looking for a wine experience not muddled by tourists, crowds and snobby bartenders, visit one of these remarkable wineries.
Cave B is just a few hours from Seattle, yet with the 300 days of sunshine per year, along with rolling valleys and gorges, you'd think you were in a different country. This winery doubles as a 4-star inn and spa, with cozy tasting rooms and private cottage and bungalows overlooking the basalt cliffs. The inn also has a full service restaurant, Tendrils, which has seasonal fare perfectly picked to pair with the estate's 25 wines. The warm and welcoming winemaker, Freddy Arredondo, has been in the food industry since age 13, and has training in both food and wine (including a degree from the institute for Enology and Viticulture in Walla Walla). Freddy is passionate about wine and is always more than happy to field questions on the wines and give you a taste of the grapes right from the soil.
Cave B's varying soil and topography allow for the production of 17 wine varieties and the growth of 18 varieties of grapes. Their bronze-winning Chardonnay is a favorite for its buttery texture and light, fruity flavor. If red is more your speed, take home a bottle of the XXIV Merlot, which is the second bottling of an old vines merlot and is full bodied with strong flavor and ripe silky tannins on the finish.
Nestled in the fairly new wine region of Lake Chelan, Tildio Winery sits off the main strip, hidden among fruit orchards right alongside the stunning Chelan mountains. The winemaker for Tildio is Katy Perry (not to be confused with the singer), who is also part owner of the 8-year-old winery. She was trained at the Harvard of Viticulture schools, University of California, Davis. She began her career in California, working with big names like Robert Mondavi and Benzinger, before she and her husband purchased the land in Manson in 2001.
They have 9 wines available, including an incredible Reserve Tempranillo, which is aged for 20 months in French Oak. Tildio is one of the few wineries in Chelan to offer (and grow) this temperamental Spanish grape. Our favorite bottle is the 09 Cabernet Sauvignon. It's rich, full-bodied and full of robust dark fruit flavors, like plum. Another popular bottle is the Cabernet Franc, which has an 89-point rating on Wine Spectator.
Located in the historic city of Walla Walla, nestled right alongside rolling wheat-covered hills is Walla Walla Vintners, one of the state's oldest wineries. The view is picture perfect, with slanted hills, acres of grapevines and lush green landscape. Started in 1995 by two friends, this winery now produces about 5,000 cases of award-winning wines each year. The winemakers, Myles Anderson and Gordy Venneri, began making wine in their basements and quickly learned that they only wanted to make red wines. Hence, the winery only produces red wines, which is both unique and challenging.
Their wines are favorites to both the residents of Walla Walla and wine aficionados everywhere, with gold ratings and awards from Seattle Met magazine, as well as 90+ point ratings in Wine Enthusiast. Their Cabernet Sauvignon (especially the 2008) is a big winner, with over 90 points in Wine Spectator, Wine Enthusiast and Wine Advocate. Their current Cab, a 2009, has rich flavors of currant and plum with a slight buttery finish. The 2010 Cab Franc is a winemaker favorite and is aged in Hungarian oat and has a hint of blueberry and raspberry.
4 Winning winery destinations
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