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Pro (for)
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The Contender
Con (against)
5 Points
Feminism and Catholicism: The Church is not Misogynistic, in fact the polar opposite
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The church celebrates women, celebrates their femininity, celebrates their ability to bring life into a world of death, and in fact holds that the FIRST and perhaps GREATEST Christians in history were in fact, women! There is a biblical and historical foundation for all of these ideas.
This is in contrast to popular misconceptions about how women are viewed in the church, in that the are "subservient" to men and not as important. This is a gross over simplification, and I have never come across an institution that wants to protect, cherish, and celebrate women more than the Catholic Church.
Pro has muddled the central contention a bit by failing to simply state that the Roman Catholic Church is a particularly feminist organization, although that would be what's implied by claiming the Church to be the polar opposite of misogynist. Nor does arguing that the Church demonstrates love for women contradict accusations of misogyny. Thomas Jefferson loved some slaves, for example, but that does not absolve him of racism.
For guidance, Wikipedia offers the following:
"Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, hostility, male supremacist ideas, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women." [1]
Building on this definition, if Con can offer evidence that the Catholic Church discriminates against women, Pro"s thesis will be proven false. If Con can show that the Church supports male supremacist ideologies, belittles or objectifies women, then Pro"s thesis will be proven false.
There are certainly also some questions of hostility and violence and Pro leaves open the consideration of the Church"s historical record but I think we can look past witch burnings of old to focus on the modern Church for the sake of relevancy. Which is not to say the modern Church does not still embrace some pretty archaic prejudices.
When the Pope was asked in 2014 if he detected an underlying misogyny within the Church, Francis replied, "The fact is that woman was taken from a rib." [2] Although intended as a joke, the Pope"s response well reflects the Church"s traditional outlook on women as an inferior class. Genesis depicts the first woman as a subset of the first man and the instrument of Adam"s fall from grace and God acknowledges Eve"s culpability by punishing all women with two additional curses: the pain of childbirth and the submission of women to the lordship of men.
In the New Testament, Paul instructs Timothy that women:
"should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." [3]
In the 2nd century Tertullian, the father of Latin Christianity, directly blamed all women for human mortality and suffering:
"Do you not realize that Eve is you? You are the devil's gateway, you desecrated that fatal tree; you first betrayed the law of God, you who softened up with your cajoling words the man against whom the devil could not prevail by force. The image of God, the man Adam, you broke him, it was child's play to you. You deserved death, and it was the son of God who had to die!" [4]
Augustine questioned the value of any woman in light of Eve"s transmission of original sin:
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman" I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children" [5]
The Church still teaches that Mary"s submission had to be sexless in order to inoculate Jesus from the transmission of the stain of Eve"s disobedience. [6]
In Catholic doctrine, women are not merely inferior, but by their inferiority the source of man"s corruption, the cause of all death and suffering.
These core doctrines help explain the profound inequities within church institution. The majority of Catholics are women and probably always have been. Catholic women attend church more often and pray more often. There are more women called to religious life than men. Women dominate most Catholic funded educational and health services. Nevertheless, the church hierarchy is dominated by ordained roles and women have been excluded from ordination since about the third century. Of 572 Vatican City passport holders, only one is a woman. Women are not permitted to vote in papal elections. Where the church sets priorities, makes policy, plans budgets, women are absent.
Although Francis has begun preaching equal pay for women, the inequity of the church is evident in the disparity of compensation among Catholic religious. A parish priest is usually paid a modest salary, is permitted savings and investment and is typically fed and housed by the church. Nuns, on the other hand, are expected to support themselves beyond their ecclesiastical responsibilities, often as nurses or teachers. Their vow of poverty requires them to turn over compensation to their order and each order is responsible for their own upkeep.
So it is with little wonder that the Church opposes the ordination of women, opposes birth control and abortion, encourages large families that perpetuate cycles of poverty, opposes marriage equality and LGBT adoption because these are policies initiated by women in leadership roles. When sex abuse scandals threatened the integrity of the church, the male dominated Vatican focused on hiding the perpetrators rather than aiding the victims or reform precisely because they lacked a female perspective on rape.
Although the Church considered sex abuse accusations concerning roughly 3,000 priests from 2001-10, only one of those priests received the condemnation of excommunication. During the same period, multiple priests, parish boards, even some whole community organizations were excommunicated for promoting feminist issues.
In 2012, the Vatican called for a major investigation of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which represents roughly 80% of religious women in the US, immediately after that group voiced support for Obamacare. Investigating bishops threatened to suppress the LCWR if it did not reform what bishops perceived as a radical feminist agenda, including calls for female ordination and support of LGBT issues. Fortunately, the investigation was abruptly shut down after Francis became pope.
Indeed, Francis seems to steering the Church away from some of its most misogynist policies and has promised to increase the presence of women in Vatican City. But Francis could hardly be called a feminist. During the same interview with the rib joke, Francis sought to compliment women by calling women "the most beautiful thing God has made."
That"s a telling remark. Women are seen, not as fellow souls in a world of suffering, not as partners in faith in search of salvation, not from the inside as just another human in need but from the outside, observed as beautiful, but apart. Until the Vatican acknowledges that its membership, its history, its lifeblood is predominately female and gives empowered expression to that female essence, the Catholic Church will remain as it is, misogynist at heart.
To the extent that these few examples demonstrate discrimination against women, male supremacy, belittlement and objectification of women, the Church has been shown to exhibit qualities of misogyny and so Pro"s contention must be refused.
I look forward to Pro"s response.
Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Catholicism does not hate women or girls.
You make a fallacy here in your next statement, " if Con can offer evidence that the Catholic Church discriminates against women"
Discrimination was not the definition, but merely one of many possible manifestations of misogyny. You can be hostile to something and not hate it. Not every soldier hates the enemies they fight and kill, but they are certainly hostile to them. Furthermore, the church is not hostile toward women. The church does not preach violence against women in any of it's doctrines, and it is CERTAINLY against the sexual objectification of women.
The sexual objectification of women happens a lot in the secular world though, through one of the largest and most profitable businesses in our world today: Pornography. Which is outright condemned by the Church BECAUSE it objectifies, belittles, and hurts women.
Now let's move onto the word "discrimination".
1.the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex:
"victims of racial discrimination" "
synonyms: prejudice " bias " bigotry " intolerance "
2.recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another:
"discrimination between right and wrong" "
So, I am assuming your are going to use the first definition. There is that word "unjust" in there. Well, equality is not always justice. Treating things that are UNEQUAL as EQUAL is as unjust as treating EQUAL things UNEQUALLY.
The role of women in the Church is not equal to men, nor is men's to women. They are just different. A mother and father have unequal roles in conceiving, carrying, caring for, and raising a child. Is one role less important? No, they are simply different.
Would you want to treat a fresh out of medical school surgeon the same as a seasoned veteran and specialist for a life or death decision? I should hope not, because they are not equals and that is not injustice.
Are there instances of discrimination that are in fact injustice? Yes, see the above explanation. Treating equal things unequally.
"Witch burnings..."
Yes that is a tricky and sticky subject for both of us and it would escape the scope of the argument. Soldiers in Vietnam were ordered by their superiors to commit the Mai Lai Massacre, and that instance alone can illustrate the complexity of "what an organization says" vs "what it practices" and all the gray areas in between. So for the sake of brevity we both agree to move on.
You are obviously not well learned in scripture and Catholic teaching. Yes, Genesis tells us that woman was made from man's SIDE. For your spouse is to walk next to you and beside you as an equal, not behind you or in front of you. Eve was not made from his FOOT or his nether regions or his head.
Furthermore, God punishes man just as well as women by forcing him to labor and toil and die. Men also have submission, and if you stop taking verses out of context you would see that.
Your quotes of Paul are referring to women's roles as Bishops. This gets into a discussion about Apostolic Succession and Authority and Tradition which Christ gave to his Church. All of the Bishops were men, and their teaching authority and tradition (which in the Catholic Church is on the highest level BESIDE the Bible, also remember we had no Bible for hundreds of years after Christianity was founded) continued that practice.
Paul also spends about 95% of his writings in the Bible correcting, yelling at, and scolding MEN. He also calls men to love their wives as Christ loves his Church. In fact, the Church (which would be run by Bishops) is the BRIDE and Christ is the BRIDEGROOM. So in essence, Paul is telling the same if not more to men.
While you cite a number of Church father's relating to sin, YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING I POSTED IN THE OPENING ARGUMENT
The first, and GREATEST CHRISTIAN, was Mary. Mother of Jesus.
Let me list some more title she has
Just as Christ is the new Adam, so is Mary the new Eve.
Please read on Mariology, which again is a very complex and intricate subject that delves deeply into the faith and scripture and we should refrain from it here.
The Church Fathers were also wild about Mary, and to keep things relevant, especially in the last century there has been a huge surge in Marian Devotions.
The Divine Chaplet of Mercy
The Writings of St. Faustina
JP2 making a new set of mysteries to the Rosary
and dozens of Saints, like Padre Pio and Mother Theresa saying things like, "No Mary, No Jesus. Know Mary, Know Christ"
In fact, Mary is considered to be ABOVE ALL POPES. She is directly below the God Head of the Trinity, and thus Marian Theology shows us that women are inherently better Christians and People than men are. This is the teaching of the church.
So PLEASE keep in mind that you are MISSSING A HUGE literary and rhetorical device when the Church Father's reference "Eve", as you clearly excluded their discussions on "Mary". You really are missing quite a bit of scripture and theology when you quote mine like that.
But that is why I am glad we are having this conversation, to clear up popular misconceptions, which you so usefully demonstrate for me.
Yes, because once again, they are inherently better Christians and People.
Furthermore, I personally know a number of women on Church budget committees, pastoral committees, charity committees, evangelization, education, and so on! I have personally seen women make decisions effecting Church life and function.
Who founded the institution in Calcutta that transformed so many lives? St. Mother Theresa! I mean I really cannot list enough female saints who founded orders and institutions of all sorts. Citing ONE strange law about the Vatican pales in comparison to the great and transparent contributions women make on a daily basis DESPITE not being able to function as priests.
Nuns vs Priests
Nuns, like their monk counterparts, have all of their needs taken for and they in fact, on their own free will, enter a life of poverty. Monks and brothers do the exact same thing, and not all priests are given the same salaries. You are TRULY mislead on the differences in monastic orders. Monastic orders are DIFFERENT than priestly orders. Each order operates differently, and generally speaking it is the same for men and women. All of this is done voluntarily I might add.
The Catholic Church does not kidnap women and make them be nuns.
So, while the world sees being opposed to birth control as oppression, we see it as preserving the natural femininity of females.
I cannot really say enough about this, and since this is not about specifically birth control, suffice it to say that the church is opposed to industries the secular world is fine with:
Killing Babies (abortion)
Stripping men and women of their natural abilities sexually speaking (birth control)
Objectifying women (sex trade, pornography, and prostitution)
I suggest listening to testimonies by people like Jane Breean or former porn starts who left mainstream/secular feminism to come to the Catholic Church, because they saw how greatly women are protected and honored.
I hardly see how when the Pope says, "women are the most beautiful thing God has made" as misogynistic.
HOW IS THAT HATRED? How is saying the greatest Christians were women, discrimination AGAISNT women?
You have many misunderstandings of the faith, because you are of the world. But I hope to have you reconsider.
CON:That is Pro"s thesis but there has been little evidence yet provided to support that position.
PRO: "You make a fallacy here in your next statement".Discrimination was not the definition, but merely one of many possible manifestations of misogyny."
CON: If discrimination is one possible manifestation of misogyny and discrimination against women can be discovered in Church policy, then at least some misogyny has been demonstrated. Where"s the fallacy?
PRO: "The church does not preach violence against women""
CON: January, 2016:
"The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Toledo, Braulio Rodriguez, told his congregation that wives could avoid being hit by doing what they are told. Women could also escape being physically abused by not asking their husbands for a divorce , Rodriguez said. He told churchgoers in his sermon: "The majority of cases of domestic violence happen because the woman"s partner does not accept them, or rejects them for not accepting their demands."[1]
PRO: "The sexual objectification of women happens a lot in the secular world though, through one of the largest and most profitable businesses in our world today: Pornography. Which is outright condemned by the Church
CON: In fact, Church policy condemns most sex and sexuality outside the precincts of connubial baby-making but pornography is not the only way to objectify a woman. When women are denied access to birth control, they are reduced to make-defined function. Men are encouraged to follow their callings while women are the machines that bear and raise the children of men.
When women say they are called to the priesthood and the Vatican refuses to acknowledge that calling, that is another kind of objectification: by the happenstance of gender, men carry on the dignity and responsibilities of the apostles but, quoting Aquinas, women are "defective and misbegotten."
PRO: "Treating things that are UNEQUAL as EQUAL is as unjust as treating EQUAL things UNEQUALLY. The role of women in the Church is not equal to men, nor is men's to women"
CON: I think we are finally getting some insight into PRO"s perspective here.
PRO: "Would you want to treat a fresh out of medical school surgeon the same as a seasoned veteran and specialist for a life or death decision?"
CON: So, by this analogy all men are the seasoned veterans and all women neophytes?
PRO: "You are obviously not well learned in scripture and Catholic teaching."
CON: Ad hominem.
PRO: "Genesis tells us that woman was made from man's SIDE. For your spouse is to walk next to you and beside you as an equal, not behind you or in front of you. Eve was not made from his FOOT or his nether regions or his head."
CON: You are paraphrasing Matthew Henry here, not Genesis. [2] Henry was a 19th century Puritan minister, not particularly feminist in outlook and decidedly anti-catholic.
PRO: Furthermore, God punishes man just as well as women by forcing him to labor and toil and die.
CON: Women are not exempt from toil or death, obviously. Eve and by her all women are subject to additional curses.
PRO: "Men also have submission"
CON: Yes, but again women have the greater burden:
"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." [3]
PRO: "All of the Bishops were men, and their teaching authority and tradition continued that practice."
CON:Yes, the exclusion of women from the bishopric is traditional but how does that support Pro"s case?
PRO: "Paul also spends about 95% of his writings in the Bible correcting, yelling at, and scolding MEN."
CON: Not surprising. Literacy in 1st century Anatolia was roughly 10% and very few women were taught to read. Common social restrictions discouraged Romans and Jews from interacting with woman very often. Although Paul likely spent more time in the company of women then the average man, he would not have perceived much dividend in addressing women in letters.
PRO: "The first, and GREATEST CHRISTIAN, was Mary. Mother of Jesus."
CON: An odd conception since Mary is generally thought to supersede Christianity, unencumbered by sin or death. The Catholic Church teaches that the church was founded the moment Jesus said "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." Which would make Peter the first Christian and through whom all popes assert their primacy. Paul was the figure who truly defined Christianity. However, I doubt the apostles would have approved of ranking Christians hierarchically.
As Pro states, Mary is a complicated figure, a relatively spare portrait on which misogynists and feminists each paint fraught ideologies.
Many feminists point out that before Christianity, goddesses commanded men with autonomy (Dionysus, Cybele, Isis, etc.), but there is no discretely feminine power in the Trinity. As Simone de Beauvoir wrote:
"For the first time in history the mother kneels before her son; she freely accepts her inferiority. This is the supreme masculine victory, consummated in the cult of the Virgin " it is the rehabilitation of woman through the accomplishment of her defeat."
Irregardless, the veneration of Mary does not necessarily indicate a lack of misogyny. The veneration of Moses in Islam may suggest that Muslims should not be anti-semitic, but does that serve as proof that Muslim institutions are not anti-semitic?
PRO: " [Women] are inherently better Christians and People."
CON: A fairly sexist generalization.
PRO: "I have personally seen women make decisions effecting Church life and function".great and transparent contributions women make on a daily basis DESPITE not being able to function as priests."
CON: The fact is that women are excluded from positions of autonomous power. That women are also the more essential gender to Church continuity only makes their disenfranchisement more misogynist. Slaves were the lifeblood of early American cotton plantations, given every manner of responsibility in the function of that institution. Would we say then that those plantations were not inherently racist? Of course not, because blacks could not control their own destinies. Until women, as a majority of the Church, control their own destinies within that institution, the Church remains guilty of misogyny.
PRO: Nuns vs Priests
CON: We agree that monks and nuns submit to similar vows of poverty. The argument is that men may choose the more comfortable and exalted vocation of priesthood while women may not.
PRO: "The Catholic Church does not kidnap women and make them be nuns."
CON: No, and this is not question of civil rights. A church may order its membership as it sees fit. The question is whether that order reflects a misogynist outlook and the exclusion of women from the ranks of authority suggests that it is so.
PRO: So, while the world sees being opposed to birth control as oppression, we see it as preserving the natural femininity of females.
CON: Precisely my point. A woman who wishes to delay or abstain from motherhood is perceived as unnatural and unfeminine. Femininity is a quality essential to all of humanity"s missions of which baby-making is but a piece.
PRO: I hardly see how when the Pope says, "women are the most beautiful thing God has made" as misogynistic.
CON: People are not things. Beauty is subjective, superficial, and ephemeral.
A beautiful thing suggests no authority or autonomy that needs to be acknowledged. A beautiful thing is nonessential.
I look forward to Pro"s concluding remarks.
"CON:That is Pro"s thesis but there has been little evidence yet provided to support that position."
No, that was not my thesis, it was a COUNTER to your point in R1. My thesis was this (which oddly enough is usually found near the start of someone's argument): "The church celebrates women, celebrates their femininity, celebrates their ability to bring life into a world of death, and in fact holds that the FIRST and perhaps GREATEST Christians in history were in fact, women! There is a biblical and historical foundation for all of these ideas."
You go on to say that since there is SOME discrimination against women, there must be some level of misogyny. No, this is a logical fallacy, I can tell you are going to have trouble on the LSAT. Further more, discrimination is not always a bad thing, as seen in the second entry of the definition I previously provided. It simply means you are able to see the difference in something.
An Analogy, we celebrate the beauty of the color white, and the color black by themselves, but we do not always need to make them exactly the same or mix them together to make gray.
I'm just going to generally sum up some of your points instead of being systematic, because debates are not about convincing the opponent, but getting your side out there for the audience.
So you say in the beginning that I provide no evidence for my thesis. Now that we have established that you cannot even find where my thesis is, and I have provided it, I will tell you that I did provide examples and evidence for it in everything I refuted and countered in R1.
While it is obvious that you can make a nice presentation, do research, and cite well...you really just cherry pick what you want. I mean that's what debating is though, in the competitive sense, but I can tell you really don't have a desire to see the other side. You cite a bishop. One bishop. Judas was a bishop, too.
Here let me do a quote mining experiment:
From Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood founder,
"[We should] apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring."
Well that must represent the whole view of the organization. Eugenics is great, how can anyone be opposed to it!
So now let's move onto the subject of pornography, which you countered clumsily by saying, "In fact, Church policy condemns most sex and sexuality outside the precincts of connubial baby-making but pornography is not the only way to objectify a woman. When women are denied access to birth control, they are reduced to make-defined function. Men are encouraged to follow their callings while women are the machines that bear and raise the children of men."
Let me correct you there...it's not MOST SEX and sexuality, it is ALL sex. Men and women are both called to celibate lives. And no, we are not confined to "baby-making", but rather challenged to practice self-denial, mutual love and respect, and not put pills in our body. You are seriously undercutting how Catholics view sex. Men are called to the same limits as women, thus totally destroying the discrimination aspect. But I did not see you mention that.
You are a skilled writer, you are only letting the audience see what you want them to.
Secondly, this does nothing to counter that the secular world, which you are in support of, has it's largest industries profit off of objectifying women, e.g. Pornography and advertisements. Go watch an hour of TV and tell if you DONT see something that objectifies women, sells sex, or spurs on racism.
Thirdly, I cannot be a priest either. It's a supernatural calling, and I'm not going to spell out the Sacraments of Vocation for you because this is not an RCIA class. If you really have interest you can start another debate, message me personally, attend an RCIA class, or bring this up on Catholic Answers.
No one is forced to do anything in the Catholic Church. The vast majority of Catholics are not clerical, and the vast majority of the lay people live lives contrary to all of the Church's teachings. This is what Jesus showed us from His ministry on Earth. He hung around tax collectors, prostitutes, poor people, sinners, etc. Any seriously practicing Catholic will tell you they fall short on some of the church's teachings, let's just say in the realm of sexuality, but they are not kicked out nor are they forced to go. Women can be CEO's of fortune 500 companies and be fully functioning members of the Catholic Church. They can have sex, or not. They can use NFP, or not. They can follow the rules or not. They aren't kicked out, nor forced to do anything by anyone.
Women are also able to follow their callings within the church, and women are capable of doing things that men are not.
So now onto your counter to my "medical student" analogy. You're misusing the analogy. It was simply meant to illustrate that there are CERTAIN circumstances where we treat unequal people (unequal in certain aspects) unequally, and that is not injustice.
You make ANOTHER LOGICAL FALLACY (covered up by decent rhetoric) by making it into a false analogy.
"Taken from the side, and you are not well learned..."
Actually, I was paraphrasing my girlfriend. I don't know who that guy is you quoted. But kudos for you for knowing that. I like how you totally did not address how that verse and story can be taken to mean something other than you clumsily showed it to me. Once again, letting the audience see what you want it to and ignoring any detractors.
Here is another example: "An odd conception since Mary is generally thought to supersede Christianity, unencumbered by sin or death. The Catholic Church teaches that the church was founded the moment Jesus said "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." Which would make Peter the first Christian and through whom all popes assert their primacy. Paul was the figure who truly defined Christianity. However, I doubt the apostles would have approved of ranking Christians hierarchically."
That is when the church was founded (or at Pentecost when they received more Holy Orders), but Christianity started with Christ's resurrection. And who were the first believers? Women. Who doubted? Men.
Paul is NOT the figure who defined Christianity.
And the Church totally does have a hierarchy and ranks Christians. Why do you think we have Papal Primacy, Canonization, the God Head, choirs of angels, levels in heaven, etc.
So yes, you are not well versed in actual Catholic teaching. Sorry if it bad rhetoric for me to point our when you quote mine, say objectively false things, and play fast and loose with history.
"As Pro states, Mary is a complicated figure, a relatively spare portrait on which misogynists and feminists each paint fraught ideologies"
Never said that, but thanks for making something up. Seriously, you are just putting words in my mouth at this point. Desperate much?
PRO: " [Women] are inherently better Christians and People."
CON: A fairly sexist generalization.
^If it is, it certainly is not misogynistic.
"CON: People are not things. Beauty is subjective, superficial, and ephemeral."
Well, if you look at how we view God, everything in the physical universe is a thing. God is "Ipsum Esse" and outside of "thing"-dom for lack of a better word. He has no genus or classification. He is the uncaused caused. We are in the genus "human" if you will, but God is not. So what the Pope is saying, is that women are the most beautiful of all creation, i.e. out of everything in the world.
We have different perspectives. Out of space.
CON: Correct
PRO:[Analogy of black & white]
CON: White is a mixture of all the colors on the visible spectrum and by refraction can project any hue, black is the absence of light and cannot change. White has options, black does not. Or extended a different way: imagine any book, or painting, or film composed of only undifferentiated white or black, how dull and uninspiring would such work be!
PRO: "You cite a bishop. One bishop. Judas was a bishop, too."
CON: Pro offered an absolute: "The Church does not preach violence against women."
Con offered a recent example of a high-ranking member of the Church (The Archbishop of Toledo) preaching violence against women from the pulpit during mass. A single exception is all that"s necessary to refute an absolute. A more accurate statement might be that the Church seldom preaches violence against women anymore.
PRO: Quoting Margaret Sanger, etc.
CON: A potentially useful quote in a debate about Planned Parenthood. Readers will note that Con raised abortion as one example by which the Church is demonstrably out of sync with the mainstream ideology of that institution"s female constituency. No defense of abortion is required in support of Con"s argument or need be inferred.
PRO: Men are called to the same limits as women, thus totally destroying the discrimination aspect. But I did not see you mention that.
CON: Con did note the disparity in excommunications for pedophile priests vs. feminist activists. That is, talking about sexual liberation for women is greater cause for punishment than outright rape by men: a fairly glaring example of gender discrimination.
PRO: "meant to illustrate that there are CERTAIN circumstances where we treat unequal people (unequal in certain aspects) unequally"
CON: Pro affirms that women are treated unequally within the Church.
PRO: "Actually, I was paraphrasing my girlfriend. I don't know who that guy is you quoted."
CON: Originally, Pro cited Genesis. Ouch.
PRO: "... but Christianity started with Christ's resurrection."
CON: From the official Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock" This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation...." [1]
No women are mentioned.
PRO: Paul is NOT the figure who defined Christianity.
CON: The Encyclopedia Britannica describes Paul as: "often considered to be the second most important person in the history of Christianity." [after Christ] [2]
PRO: "Never said that, but thanks for making something up."
CON: Pro stated, "Please read on Mariology, which again is a very complex and intricate subject." Pro echoed the sentiment, "As Pro states, Mary is a complicated figure."
PRO: " [Women] are inherently better Christians and People." [is not misogynistic.]
CON: Yes it is, by lumping women into some different ideal than men, by placing women on a special pedestal, women are objectified, unlike other Christians and people.
As stated in the first round, Pro"s contention that the Catholic Church is the opposite of misogynistic was and remains rather fuzzy. Con suggested that the term feminist might serve, but Pro has neither accepted or refuted that offering.
Pro"s main argument seems to be that feminist critique must be in error because the Church celebrates women, but celebration of some group of people does not preclude bigotry against the same. Maine Governor Paul LePage celebrates Martin Luther King"s birthday but is nevertheless demonstrably racist in his public remarks. The NFL enthusiastically promotes breast cancer awareness but its players have an appalling record of domestic violence against women.
Pro has also argued that some of the first and greatest Christians were women, which is indisputably true. Again, that fact does not preclude the possibility of bigotry any more than did the fact that the first Christians were Jewish preclude spectacular acts of anti-semitism throughout history.
Pro points to the Catholic adoration of Mary as proof against misogyny but this hardly definitive as many misogynist cultures have worshipped female divinities. The Roman Republic worshipped many female deities and the Virgins of Vesta were deemed supremely sacred, but the Romans were markedly misogynistic.
Prominent Sister Simone Campbell said of Pope Francis in an interview today:
""One thing I find rather annoying is that [Francis] doesn"t see us as "Eve-temptress," but more like Mary. That"s putting women on a pedestal. That"s as confining a cage." [3]
In the absence of a framework establishing the opposite of misogyny, Con provided a definition
that noted sexual discrimination, hostility, male supremacist ideas, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women as some examples of misogyny. Con argued that if the Church could be shown to exhibit some of these habits, then the Church could not be properly characterized as "the opposite of misogynistic" and Pro"s case proven false.
Con offered traditional Church doctrine that inculpated and subordinated women for original sin. The cited doctrines were not specifically refuted, but Pro suggests the quotes were taken out of context insofar as God also punished men and that Paul also encouraged men to love their wives. But the burdens of guilt and submission were clearly unequal and more onerous on women.
Con argued that the absence of women in the Vatican and ordained vocations constitutes discrimination. Pro agreed that men and women had unequal roles, but argued that women were not less important, only different. Pro applies several analogies- doctors vs. interns, child-raising, etc that don"t improve Pro"s case. Con maintains that if the positions of authority, autonomy, and even luxury are exclusively reserved for men, women are clearly afforded the less important role and discrimination demonstrated. Some men are promoted to positions where they can live in castles and wear velvet slippers at Church expense, no women are permitted such aspirations.
Con also argued that Church politics are out of sync with women"s issues even to the point of harming the Church"s continuity. Pro defended Church policy at length as a protection of natural femininity but neither refuted the point nor demonstrated policies that reflect women"s values (there are certainly some).
Con pointed to Pope Francis" remarks as an example of objectification, but really all these points contain some element- the focus on women as virgins and mothers and temptresses, the predominance of nuns in teaching and nursing, etc. Pro argued that the Church is anti-pornography and that pornography is the worst kind of female objectification. But opposing one type of objectification (particularly within the context of non prescribed sex) does not refute all objectification. In any case, Pro is not buying Con"s definition, so we"ll have to leave that up to readers.
To the extent that evidence of some misogyny has been shown, Pro"s contention that the Catholic Church is the opposite of misogynist must be false -not necessarily irredeemable, certainly better than the past, but also certainly misogynist to some degree.
Lastly, Con would ask readers to consider Pro"s reliance on ad hominem and the continuation of arguments in notes when evaluating conduct.
Thanks again to Pro for instigating this debate and thanks in advance to readers for voting. Please vote Con.
[1] http://www.vatican.va...
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
I actually agree with you, but pro decided to take on the duty of proving the church to be outright anti-misogyny. Not the same thing as just not hating women.
I am opposed to abuses of the comment section, but if con outright lied about something you said (with quotation marks), not merely using your actual words against you, please PM me the examples.
Either way I suggest trying this debate again, with a better setup, and better defined scope (plus clear definitions in R1). And I advise against complaining when your opponent cherry picks their facts, instead of doing your work for you; in a normal conversation it'd be lame of them, on a research paper it would be dubious, but in a debate it's proper protocol.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
And I'm not sure how straight up putting words in my mouth and misquoting me counts as good conduct. I took that as an insult, and returned the favor. But it's no hard feelings.
We have different perspectives, you're a skilled debater, but you never proved that the Church hates, or preaches hate (as a unified doctrine), upon women. It's really a matter of perspective, I guess. Some people think abortion is not murder. I suppose legally it is not (at least now), according to the world it is not (unless the baby was intentional, then its a baby and not a fetus), but it is ending the life of a human being. Fanciful lawyers and very smart people dance skillfully around that for a living, it doesn't make it true or not.
I'm in the Church, you're now outside of it. I'm telling you I've never seen misogyny. In all your experiences, and with all your nun examples, have you ever walked up to one and asked why they are such victims? What do they tell you?
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Conduct: Pro hurt this by opening R3 with an off topic insult, lying about the content of his own R1 (pretty brief opening, hard for it to hold his talk of Mary as claimed), etc. However he caught himself when he was complaining that con didn't argue his points for him, which is a large enough sign of good faith and improvement that I am opting to not penalize.
S&G: Con should disable smart quotes, and pro should get control of his caps lock. About even.
Arguments: Pro's case failing boils down to "discrimination is not always a bad thing," and that an archbishop's encouragement of violence against women is irrelevant to a discussion of how anti-Misogynistic the church is. Plus he seemed somewhat against Misogyny being defined (which hurts his case more than con's, as he has the primary duty of BoP). Pro points out every predictable bit (denial of reproductive medicine and linked poverty, the multiple priest fiascos, the pope's accidental sexist joke, an archbishop encouraging violence against women, the church objectifying women in comparable ways to porn, etc.). Pretty much after con's arguments, to win this pro would have had to prove that violence against women is an act of love instead of hate (or that they properly punished said archbishop for going so far against their teachings).
Sources: Con dominated in this area (edu sites, interview with the pope, that archbishop one takes the cake...), but otherwise a little predictable (nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't have points and counterpoints for review). Pro offered one to support that nuns are not kidnapped and brainwashed, and generally insulted con's (drawing more attention to them, without adequately refuting them).
Posted by Oromagi 2 years ago
You'll notice how my opponent misquotes me, and even flat out puts words in my mouth.
You'll notice how my opponent falsely identifies my thesis, as a counter to my pointing out the flaw in his definition of "misogyny" and the application thereof.
You'll noticed skilled quote mining (probably the best I've seen) and a very skewed view on Catholic doctrine and practice.
I'm not sure if the obvious cheap tactics are malicious or oversights, but they are obvious when you look at them. My opponent acts like a high paid defense attorney, a mercenary of words.
As I stated previously, you cannot fully understand what the faith is unless you live it or seriously give it an academic study. I can sit here and tell you all day what the military is and is not for example, but you'll never truly know unless you experience it and everything it entails. So to fully counter every single of my opponent's points is outside the scope of this argument, as it would require a full understanding of our faith as not being misogynistic, but very pro-woman. And I cannot provide that in an internet text box sadly.
Perhaps by the world's view we are misogynistic, but the world has thought us crazy since we first came on the scene. What with the Jew's ONE God vs. many and all. The Church always allows people to come and go, and forces its beliefs upon no one. If you fully understand our faith, you would understand why things are how they are, and nothing is stopping you from pursuing any career or family or non-family. We won't stop loving you.
The world thinks killing babies is not murder, and that pornography is liberating. Go figure.
When non-Christians cite the Bible, or more specifically, when non-Catholics cite particular Catholic texts, be sure you know the full context. If you are quoting from an Early Church Father, read the whole book he is being quoted from. If you are quoting from the Bible, read the whole chapter at least.
Or else you run the same risk a modern suburbanite privileged white boy when he gives a cursory read to "The Invisible Man" or "A Raisin in the Sun".
I would not dare to quote mine the Quran and throw it in a Muslim's face, because well, I don't really know what I'm talking about because all I really know about Islam is what I've learned through other people, not living it or delving into a serious academic pursuit.
You can see my opponent's nearly limitless misconceptions. The Catholic Church can be compared to a stained glass window inside a cathedral. On the outside, you can't really make out what it truly is, or how it is MEANT to be seen. Only when you go inside do you realize how it is meant to be seen and understood, and you won't believe your eyes.
Posted by Phenenas 2 years ago
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
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The club is sponsoring a new effort to compile a Breeding Bird Atlas for Santa Cruz County, please see the page linked above.
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subset: commoncrawl


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Finally after lots of announcements on 28 November 2016, the bond notes finally came and a lot of people are getting worried. Most people are scared of a repeat of the 2008 era where the black market was rife and a shortage of cash and retail products made life extremely difficult. Naturally, even looking at it from an economics point of view, the panic is highly likely to cause the resurface of the black markets and all the ill that comes with it.
Though I am not fully in support of the Bond notes introduction, introduced in moderation the potential benefits are really undeniable. Unfortunately there is no guarantee of moderation in their introduction and that is worrying.
The truth of the matter is, it is possible to survive. This time it does not have to be like 2008 and the key is in our embrace of technology as well as the commerce sector in Zimbabwe. If technological payment systems available now that were not there in 2008 are embraced, everything can go a different direction. Here are several ways Zimbabwe can ease the damages of impending monetary apocalypse:
1. Contactless / NFC Payments
Taking advantage of Near Field Communication (NFC), chips can be embedded into devices or cards to shorten the payment process to just the action of tapping a NFC payment recipient device with said card/device. Mobile phone makers jumping on the bandwagon with products like Apple Pay, Huawei Pay and Samsung pay shows how much this is growing as a payment solution worldwide and we should pay attention to it.
Ecocash last year introduced NFC payment through Ecocash Ta! which is convenient because unlike Samsung/Huawei/Apple Pay you don't need to have a NFC capable handset to use it (those are bloody expensive!). Instead, NFC stickers that could be stuck to anything that customers can carry around are what Ecocash introduced. The Ecocash Ta! has a maximum of $3 on payments and requires your Ecocash PIN when above that. It means that the convenience is available while keeping the amounts safe.
If you think having an Ecocash Branded sticker on your phone is just plain silly there is an alternative is available in the form of the now available Ecocash Debit Cards that come with the NFC functionality. Unless there is huge uptake of this one by retailers it may be the least used service.
2. GetCash
Recently I wrote about whether GetCash would be able to beat Ecocash. Their ability or inability to do so will not matter when the bond notes come as Zimbabweans will need alternatives to cash payment solutions. There will be plenty of business for everyone. GetCash has great features that allow for bill payments as well as even bank transfers that people can use. Considering that most banks are now offering mobile and internet banking, that feature may prove to be too much of an effort to attain. GetCash has also introduced GetCash Debit Cards that have the NFC feature (Ecocash watch out!) so that is definitely something that will work for Zimbabweans. GetCash will be a great alternative on the market when the time comes.
3. Bank Cards/ Plastic Money
Many banks offer swipe payment solutions that function with the ATM cards that they issue out. That means that generally any supermarket you get into will have your bank's swipe machine. If not, you can still swipe with another local bank's machine for a small charge.
4. Merchant Payments
Most mobile money transfer services allow for retailers and wholesalers to register so users can make direct payments without cashing out first. This means consumers do not have to to worry about charges for cash-outs or send money charges. The merchant feature generally comes a lot cheaper. Providers who are offering merchant payment services are: TeleCash, Ecocash and GetCash.
Three things worry me when it comes to whether this will work against Bond Notes:
- The government itself will have a part to play. How they act and react to consumer and service provider behavior will affect confidence in the bond notes.
- Some service providers push one particular bank swipe machine on consumers all the time, even if it's not their bank. As a result, a good number get wary of swiping and find it costly due to cross-bank charges.
- Wholesalers are not providing swipe services. I like to do my shopping in bulk and shop for several months at a time with basics. Sadly most of the big Indian run wholesalers are taking nothing but cash. Yes, just cash! They won't even take mobile money. This means that the people who shop there like me will always explicitly need to look for cash. I hope they end up with all the Bond Notes
The way people behave in anticipation of change has far greater effects than the actual change itself. If Zimbabweans panic and hoard hard cash they'll definitely create a cash shortage. It's really a catch 22 situation. With continuous improvement of mindset as well as banking and retail systems everything may go quite smoothly. Consumers will not be exploited because of the differently owned solutions available in the market. This is exploitation in terms of pricing; unless the service providers collude to make the most out of the Bond Note period.
It will be good to watch and see which direction it all takes. #kaizenYOU


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How to Grow Your HR Analytics Budget
posted by Laurie Bassi
- You know you should be making more progress on HR analytics
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Tagged HR analytics, HR professionals, using data, value creation


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Philadelphia 76ers select Fultz with number one overall pick
Fultz is only 19 years old and averaged 23 points and almost 6 rebounds and assists in his lone season at Washington . Jackson furnished 16.3 points and 7.4 boards a game for the Jayhawks as a freshman last season. He averaged 23 points, nearly 6 assists, and nearly 6 boards. There were two No. 1 overall picks in the gym at the Sixers practice facility on Friday.


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The intake system of the order
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This seller is horrible. DONT ORDER A CAKE TOPPER HERE. I ordered a cake topper in the beginning of March and she took my money and never sent out the order. I've contacted her numerous times and no response.
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What if you got run over by a bus tomorrow? Do you live in fear of that? Did you live in fear of cancer before you were diagnosed with cancer? We are all going to die of something someday. There are gazillions of what ifs in life. Why let what ifs rule your life? Focus on the what is rather than the what if..
Adenocarcinoma, Cervical Cancer Questions
In remission, but still living in fear
Asked by sgmom on Sunday, February 24, 2013
In remission, but still living in fear
...and I don't want to live in fear! I got word this week from my gyn onc that I'm in remission. While I'm beyond ecstatic, there's still a big part of me that is living in fear and with paranoia. What if it comes back? Did they miss something? What if the doc who did the pathology report was having a bad day? All these what-ifs in my head are consuming me and I just want to be able to move on. I think the fact that my journey was so short and "easy", for lack of a better word, compared to that of others has me doubting everything.
Any feedback is appreciated.
11 Answers from the Community11 answers
I know how you feel. I just was told that I am 5 years ovarian cancer free and part of me still finds it hard to accept. But I've come to realize that I can't let fear rule my life. If you do that, you'll miss out on living. Celebrate your remission and know that your doctors will continue to monitor your health. You have a lot of life to live so get up and live it! Focus on everything good that life has to offer and enjoy!
sgmom, There is nothing normal about any cancer. Your journey being short and "easy" is proibably more common than you realize. The people that answer and post the miost here on what next tend to be those that hasve had the longer nad harder journies. We tend to have more experie nce and get somnething out of helping others. The large majority of the people regestered on this site have had a single incidence of cancer that has been cured and does not return. So you are really more normal that you realize. It is common to have these feelings after treatment and part iof it may be caused by the treatment as chemo tends to affect seretonin levels in the brain which csan cause depression and anxiety. You may want to talk to your Drs about this and see if some meds might help you. I personally have had depression as a result of the treatment but meds have helped me. Good Luck and try and put the worries behind you and get on with a normal life without cancer.
While it might be easy for me as a nurse to tell you that conventional wisdom is to put aside those fears and grab every moment of joy without apprehension, knowing you are a cervical cancer patient makes it a bit harder. That, and of course the fact that my perspective comes from the foot of the bed,and not in it. However, in a way I can relate. I am a Skinny Pop addict. I love the snack but once I start eating it I can't stop and, I justify it because it is low in calories, but I am on weight watchers. I don't count calories so I am just trying to justify my actions. In a way so are you. You want to be in that "ever ready state" which is a hard habit to overcome. Over time, you will come to be more at ease as the length of time increases. It is only something you can change with time. Although my analogy is in no way comparable to yours, I do understand holding onto a train of thought that holds some measure of comfort for me even though I recognize that it might not be the best thing for me. Like everything else in our lives, reality has a way of unfolding before us in its own good time, and I have no doubt that at some point you will find a way to resume a life of sheer abandon regardless of what unknown variable lies in the road ahead. Go easy on yourself, you are no different than many here. In good time life will come calling for you again with an adventure that far outweighs the caution. Best of luck to you, Carm RN.
When I first heard the words "Cancer Free" -- I was almost hesitant to believe it. I think I was afraid that it was good news that would not last. My goal was to be on guard but not to be paranoid. However, when I would get a sore in my mouth, a bump elsewhere or an ache, my thoughts would immediately be "cancer". I was letting fear interfere with the quality of my life. As time has passed, I have gotten so much better. I hardly ever think about the cancer returning -- and when I do, I remind myself that fear and worry does not do a single thing to help the situation -- so I let go and do my best to enjoy life and cherish each moment that the Good Lord has given me with my family and friends. I wish you the best.
You still need time to process the "Shock" you have been through.. Go easy on yourself..the fear does pass. Try some mindful meditation, keeping a journal, mediation for healing and do the things that you have been "Waiting to do" . In other words try and turn this experience into a "wake up call" to start living a life with the purpose and intention that you have always wanted your life to be. It takes time but a little step each day starts to add up to real changes. I think right now your still needing the time to process. Go easy..this too shall pass.
It's natural to feel this way, but you need to find ways to calm that voice in your head. I know that is easier said then done. but as nancjac said we can get hit by a bus tomorrow, etc. Do you worry every time you cross the street? Good luck, just take it one day at a time.
I lived in fear for awhile after I entered remission, I would be on pins and needles after I had a scan while waiting for the results, ans Gosh forbid they had to rescan for some reason. I finally decided I couldn't live like that anymore, and decided to deal with bad news IF and when it came. I go to my appointments and have faith that if the cancer comes back, I will be diagnosed early so I can deal with it.
I know first hand how you feel I was diagnosed in 2008 with breast cancer. While I'm still on remission there is a part of me that worries about reoccurance possibilities. It's easy for people to say don't worry, but its a different scenario when you have the constant threat to deal with. I feel that it's ok to be mindful bit don't let your fear consume you. Live your life ,control what you can(risk factors), and leave for God to handle.
I understand how you feel. Watching and waiting, whether as a strategy before first treatment or as a state of being after treatment is full of anxiety. I just completed six months of chemo and am now watching and waiting for my follicular lymphoma to return -- and with that particular cancer, it will return but we hope not for many, many years. But it's anxious.
The best advice I heard from my therapist is that you have to allow yourself some anxiety, it'd be superhuman NOT to be anxious. But it's challenging to not let anxiety be the constant state. Everyone is different but for me, it took me time to process the "I'm out of treatment" reality and over time, the anxiety fades ever so much into the background. In the meantime, I write for therapy and to process what I hear and how I feel, and try to stay in the present and not worry as much about a future I can't control. That, and I do try to eat more plant-based foods and remove all the processed foods from my diet. Does it help? I don't know but it makes me feel like I'm doing something.
Help the community by answering this question:
Read and answer more adenocarcinoma, cervical cancer questions. Also, don't forget to check out our Adenocarcinoma, Cervical Cancer page.


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The State University of Iowa Foundation has started answering to a new name: "The University of Iowa Center for Advancement."
Although it will retain its legal foundation name, administrators with the institution's independent fundraising arm this week confirmed its new "doing-business-as" moniker after its board and the UI Alumni Association board approved a plan to merge the two entities.
Those votes — the association's last week and the foundation's on Tuesday — mean the entities officially are moving forward under a "new advancement model." That model is the fruition of an announcement UI President Bruce Harreld made in March, when he pitched the merger as a way to leverage the organizations' strengths and expertise and create "more meaningful alumni engagement and increased philanthropic support."
In justifying dissolution of the independent alumni association and foundation, Harreld cited the overlapping missions of the entities and the opportunities for improved efficiency and unity in serving the university and alumni.
The plan had its critics, however, with some disparaging both the idea and the rollout — accusing Harreld of circumventing association bylaws by announcing the structural change without a board vote. Emails obtained by The Gazette show former association President Jeff Kueter fought the merger and told colleagues he doesn't agree with it.
The association board's former chairwoman Clare Kelly in May abruptly resigned — calling her departure best for the organization and "for me personally."
Under new leadership, the association board in June voted to make a plan to merge with the UI Foundation. Foundation President Lynette Marshall — tasked with heading the new UI Center for Advancement — told The Gazette leadership spent the summer crafting that plan.
This week, Marshall told UI faculty the association and foundation boards approved the plan — which will be submitted to the Iowa Secretary of State's Office, along with the articles of merger, closer to the official effective date of Jan. 1, according to Dana Larson, executive director of communications and marketing for the new center.
Details of the plan will be made public after the paperwork is submitted, as the boards can still make "mutually-agreed upon changes," according to Larson.
Effectively, though, Larson said, "We are now officially moving forward as one organization."
The entity's legal designation will remain State University of Iowa Foundation because many alumni have bequests in place — including in wills — remembering the organization by name.
As for the 24 Alumni Association employees affected by their entity's dissolution, Marshall told The Gazette, "No one would lose their job." Thus, as part of the merger, former association staffers had the option to integrate into the new larger center — which remains independent from the university — or find another job within the UI campus.
As of this week, 12 former association staffers have taken positions in the new center, putting its employee total at 254 — with some remaining openings, according to Larson.
Former association workers were considered UI employees and received UI benefits. Foundation employees were not under UI purview and received foundation-specific benefits. All employees with the new independent Center for Advancement will have foundation benefits.
The new center will be larger than the foundation, as it is "assuming responsibilities for alumni engagement for the entirety of the university," Marshall told The Gazette.
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Critics have questioned the wisdom of bringing alumni engagement in concert with foundation activities, asking whether all alumni community-type events henceforth will feel like fundraisers.
"We have to prove to them that that won't be the case," Marshall said. "I think they'll see quite quickly that we understand that there are many ways for alumni to come together and have their own experiences as well as ways for them to engage in the life of the university."
And not all of them involve fundraising, she said, citing UI fandom, attendance at artistic events and performances, mentorship, and community groups across the nation.
"There are many ways that we are enriched through the active engagement of alumni," Marshall said.
Mergers like this one are not uncommon, Marshall said, noting other universities nationally have taken the same path. Citing an alumni survey last year of more than 500 schools, Marshall said, more than 68 percent reported some type of advancement model.
"So it's a fairly common organizational structure," she said. "And it's quite logical."
Because, according to Marshall, alumni association and foundation employees share many of the same interests in reaching out to alumni and assessing how they might engage with in their alma mater. This new model will take those efforts further.
"It certainly broadens our mission," Marshall said. "And we're delighted with that."


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Kirby One Win From Richt
Head coach Kirby Smart moved to 7-4 lifetime behind a third consecutive win, matching the longest win streak of his career.
Across the SEC landscape, the coach I consider the best in the division became the first ever to reach the SEC title game in his first two seasons, as dreaded Florida will again battle BAMA in Atlanta. This is by far the most common matchup in league championship history and should come as no shock to anyone who saw Florida shut us down 24-10 in Jacksonville. Tennessee's upperclass laden dream team won nothing, after falling on hard times since the Hail Mary in Sanford. We are a notch below two-loss Florida and know what we have to do, who we have to beat and best to get where we want to be. We can do it!
Mark Richt went 8-4 in his first year as UGA head coach, so with one big Peach State Governor's Cup victory, Smart can match that record before heading to a mid-tier bowl. As I discussed earlier today, the losses are piling up across the league and the bowl slotting is still way up for grabs below the top. As prime example, LSU now has the same number of losses as the Dawgs – although they have yet to yield over 21 in a game. We gave 21 inconsequential points to their state non-rivals in Athens, while Nick Chubb showed a return to 100% form and Joystick exploded for multiple huge plays Between the Hedges. It was the only "easy" win of the season for GEORGIA. Win next week and the program appears clearly headed in the right direction.
Lose and the light that came on with a win in the Deep South's Oldest Rivalry against then #9 Auburn goes all the way out. Must win.
Noon. Athens. See you in the Classic City, where I will be selling my book in person. You can buy it now by mail at:
"Richt Era: 15 Years in Athens" ($17.85)


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At the opening of Walking Country: a photographic journey on Friday 21 September, long-standing member and treasurer for over 20 years (and still counting) Ernie Richards was awarded life membership.
- Peter Nowak, who first met Ernie in 1986, penned a glowing tribute for the man who loves shortcuts and ridge walking. Read it here:
- Now in his 70s, Ernie is still getting out on the trail and pounding out the kilometres, in Central Australia, Nepal and New Zealand.


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[all images courtesy of tredjenatur.dk ]
the subject of climate change is big and the discussion regarding how to use architecture as a way to respond to the climate change can be discussed endlessly in a stand along blog subject. yet here is one example, denmark's first climate adapted neighborhood proposed by copenhagen-based architectural practice Tredje Natur (Third Nature) that gives us a fresh and creative take on how the city can be arranged so rainwater on streets can be managed in a more natural and effective way.
a very comprehensive press packet can be downloaded on Tredje Natur's webpage, and here are couple highlights of the project:
" back in December 2011, Tredje Natur won the task through EUROPAN11 by developing a visionary plan for how the district's streets and public spaces can be fertile, and where the rain and natural phenomena creates a single pulse of urban space. in a few years the district showcase new solutions in practice and the ambition is to create a model area both nationally and internationally to inspire broad and strengthen Denmark's position in climate change adaptation and urban design. "
" … at Skt. Kjelds and Tåsinge place we can optimize the terrain so that urban space surface area will be more than doubled. it provides space to include major natural value, better microclimate and therefore also more life and better water management. the large spaces are both distinctive and natural hubs in the district, which also becomes possible to integrate new cafes and playgrounds, says Flemming Rafn Thomsen, partner of tredje natur. "
[all images courtesy of tredjenatur.dk ]
project information:
Responsible Partners: Flemming Rafn Thomsen and Ole Schroeder
Design Team: Monica Galiana, Anna Sissela Michalsdottir, Joan Melgaard Rasmussen, Lotte Randeris Kristensen, Louise Fiil Hansen and Hans H. Bærholm
Location: St.. Kjeld Quarter Outer East of Copenhagen
Client: City of Copenhagen at the Center for Park and Nature Area Renewal St. Kjeld Quarter, Copenhagen Farm Gardens, Copenhagen Energy and Environment Section Copenhagen.
Size: 105 Ha
Project Period: 2011-2016


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By Carla Sargent
Go to Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 or Part 4.
In earlier articles (parts 1-4) I documented my experience of tandem feeding Luca and Jonah during Jonah's first two weeks of life (Luca is 17 months older than Jonah). This article tells of my tandem feeding journey through the next two months.
Tandem feeding has been going great for us all. I do spend a huge portion of my days, and a fair chunk of my nights, breastfeeding but for the most part, I find it an enjoyable and rewarding experience, so I don't mind.
Luca has continued to eat little and breastfeed a lot. This was causing me some concern as I don't know of any other 19 month olds who barely eat any solids, so I contacted a fantastic Le Leche League (LLL) leader for some advice. Speaking to her put my mind at ease. She informed me that, nutritionally, breast milk is providing Luca with everything he needs apart from fibre. Owing to the fact that breast milk has a laxative effect, lack of fibre isn't really an issue. Luca certainly hasn't been 'plugged up' – quite the opposite, in fact!
The LLL leader also informed me that many breastfed toddlers at Luca's age go through a period of going off food and breastfeeding a lot more, with or without the addition of a new family member. This reassured me that what Luca is doing is quite normal and is likely to end without intervention on my part. Of course his behaviour may also well be meeting an emotional need at a time in his life when big changes are likely to be quite challenging for him. It feels very reassuring to be able to offer him the security and comfort that breastfeeding provides.
Interestingly, Luca tends to choose solids over breast milk when he is out visiting his little play-mates or is at Playcentre. He is probably influenced by seeing the other kids eating but I also think that he has come to associate 'home' with 'breast'. Of course Jonah spends a lot of time feeding so Luca is probably inspired to have a turn when he sees his little brother enjoying a feed.
One wonderful benefit of tandem feeding has been that Luca hasn't shown any jealousy or resentment towards Jonah. Occasionally he indicates to me that he wants me to put Jonah down so I can play with him instead, but for the most part he shows nothing but affection towards his brother. At least once each day Luca requests a cuddle with his brother, and every time I have tandem fed them (as in both feeding at the same time), Luca has either stroked Jonah's head or held his hand. Talk about melting my heart!
Unfortunately I barely ever tandem feed them anymore. As adorable as it is, it has simply become too impractical because I need an extra hand to help Jonah out when my milk let-down happens. I have a very strong let-down and a huge milk supply so I tend to choke Jonah quite easily. Poor little fella! He typically comes on and off the breast a number of times each feed to cough and catch his breath, basically ruling out my ability to feed Luca at the same time. I had been really hopeful that breastfeeding two children might keep my milk over-supply issues at bay and initially that seemed to be the case. It took about three weeks for my body to start producing an over-abundant supply of milk. I shouldn't complain – it's a blessing to be able to nourish both my littlies so effortlessly.
An advantage of tandem feeding has been that if I feed Jonah off the same side as I have just fed Luca from, he is able to have a relaxing feed because he doesn't have to battle with a full-on let-down. Neither Laura nor Luca had this opportunity until they were close to six months of age – the age at which they became mature enough to be able to easily cope with my milk let-down.
A few people have asked whether tandem feeding has been taxing on my energy levels. I am very fortunate in that I don't seem to notice any negative effects on my health or state of well-being. I eat and drink loads and I spend a lot of the day sitting on the couch feeding – I am certainly not one of those super-mums who get out for some exercise every day. It is quite telling that I haven't had a breast infection since Jonah's birth. When my body is under stress I tend to get mastitis very quickly (as was the case with my first child, Laura, where I had two bouts of mastitis in the first two weeks following her birth!) Clearly my body is quite capable of feeding two children without becoming run down. In fact all those wonderful breastfeeding hormones that I am producing very frequently are probably making me feel more 'loved up' and happier than ever!
Another question I am often asked is if and when I intend to wean Luca. I don't have any set time frame in mind. When I had Laura (almost 10 years ago) I decided that I would breastfeed her for as long as it was an enjoyable experience for us both (not counting the first six weeks when establishing breastfeeding was an excruciating experience for me!) I stopped enjoying it before she did. She was three when I weaned her. I guess I hold the same attitude with regards weaning Luca and Jonah. When and how it will end is anyone's guess, but for now the three of us are enjoying our breastfeeding journey. Long may it last!
Carla Sargent lives in the Waikato and is a mother of three home born children. She has worked as an independent midwife and secondary school teacher. She is happy to be contacted at firstname.lastname@example.com.
Go to Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 or Part 4.


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A Wonderful Today Today marks a huge milestone for my daughter. Today is the first day she is officially working as an audiologist. She received her doctorate in May. Friday was the last day of a year-long externship with a major integrated managed care consortium. I am so proud of her. Not only was it a […]
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I know that there are a lot of similar Posts but i have a Special question.
I want to set a Progress bar to 100 and another to 0 if the analog Input from a Joystick is bigger than 330. If the Input is less than 300 i want to set the Progress Switch the Progress barsm ( the frist to 0 and the second to 100). If the value is between 300 and 330 both Progress bars schould be set to 0.
I know that the Arduino is sending data, because of the TX LED but i dont know why the Nextion Display isnt recieving the data.
Here is the Code
#include "Nextion.h"
NexProgressBar j0 = NexProgressBar(1, 7, "j0");
NexProgressBar j1 = NexProgressBar(1, 8, "j1");
int JoystickPin = A0;
int JoystickValue = 315;
void setup() {
void loop() {
delay(200); }
void readSensor() {
JoystickValue = analogRead(JoystickPin); }
void sendJoystickToNextion() {
if(JoystickValue < 300) {
endNextionCommand(); }
if(JoystickValue > 330) {
endNextionCommand(); }
else {
endNextionCommand(); }
void endNextionCommand() {
There are a lot of similar posts - over 150 as a matter of course.
Examine the code in the Library
- endNextionCommand()
is already handled by the .setValue() function
Now your logic is only doing as you told it to do.
- when less than 300 0 and 100
- when above 330 100 and 0 otherwise override 0 and 0
So effectively when Joystick is above 330 j0 is 100
at all other times j0 is 0 and j1 is never not 0
My bet is that this isn't what you meant
- but it is exactly what you told it to do.
yes but the Progress bars do not Change if i move the Joystick and i dont know what i did wrong, they stay in their starting Position like the Background of my Display.
Now i tried to use it with Pictures, with the Signal: vis p2,0
But nothing happens and i used example codes but nothing happens.
Basics in Debugging
(if you get a 404 it is because you are not logged in)
(Register, email is sent to set password, Login to view)
One step at a time.
- action on Joystick
- prove MCU catches the value
- prove MCU triggers your event code
Until you have proven the basics
you are just running around in circles.
@Tom M
Be sure you fully understand what the analogRead() function does.
I.E it produces a 10bit precision integer, range 0-1023 on a voltage swing of 0-5V
Then once that is sorted, do you really only want to poll for changes 5 times per second, as the delay(200) in loop() specifies?
I would remove the delay and come up with some better logic to send to Nextion just once as the boundaries are crossed.


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Learning about Smart Working
Annamaria Cacchione tells us about The Digital Workplace European project and the state-of-the-art of remote working in Europe
Smart working is an important lever for the digital transformation of companies and the country.
Adopting forms of flexible working means not only changing the culture of companies and managers, but also spreading more digital skills among its employees.
"The Digital Workplace" multinational project was created in response to precisely this need. We talked to Annamaria Cacchione, scientific manager at Ares, the Italian professional education organisation leading the project.
1. The Digital Workplace is an education program to promote the dissemination of Smart Working good practices. What is it? What are the objectives of the project and who does it refer to?
The Digital Workplace is a European professional training project, within the Erasmus plus program. The primary objective is to promote the spread of a new model of work organization, based on results and not presence as such and, therefore, independently and remotely achievable. There are several ways to define smart working, from remote working to agile working: we called the project Digital Workplace, starting from the concept of digital working, because our initial focus was technology.
The project addresses two targets:
- business owners and HR managers
- workers, both employees and freelance.
2. The project is multidisciplinary and multinational. Who conceived the idea and who are the players involved at present?
The idea emerged a little while ago, in 2014, during the UNESCO Mobile Learning Week in Paris, because together with friends and colleagues we had to reflect on the new organizational models that exploit new technologies and, in particular, on remote working and the need for training in this regard.
The players involved are currently
- the Italian professional training organization Ares (lead partner), the association for which I am scientific manager
- Telefónica Learning Services, Telefónica's educational arm
- GAIA, an association of business owners in the Basque Country
- DEKRA Akademie, the educational sector that refers to the German Volkswagen
- Hellenic Open University, a Greek "open university"
- Innoventum the Finnish software house as technology partner
In short, partners from different countries and complementary in their areas of specialization.
3. At what stage is the project? What are the next steps?
We can say that the project is halfway. We plan on bringing a first version of the course online on the digital workplace platform in March 2017, but a lot of video content will be added later.
An important next step is the Learning Week that we are organizing in Italy for the month of March: it is open to all business owners and workers who will then be responsible for the next phase of the project, that of the pilot trials, to be held in Italy, Germany and Spain, with the aim of testing the entire training program in the field.
4. What are the basic skills behind the digital transformation promoted by Smart Working?
Smart Working requires a radical change of attitude, no longer based on presence in the office, but on objectives. Transversal skills are, therefore required, similar to so-called soft skills, which can be split into four main areas both for business owners and workers:
- self-management skills, hence, self-discipline
- the ability to collaborate remotely with colleagues and superiors
- the ability to communicate appropriately using technological tools
- lateral thinking and so-called change management
The online course modules were built on these four areas.
5. Smart Working is based on a mature relationship between company and worker. What elements can promote this relationship? Can technologies (video conferencing, instant messaging, etc.) speed up this process?
Technologies are absolutely essential, because they constitute the environment in which Smart Working can originate, but this is not everything. Even before using technological tools properly, it is important to initiate a cultural change in attitude on the part of both business owners and workers.
6. How is the online course structured? Is there a final certificate?
It is a MOOC course, therefore an online course, open and free to everyone. It is really two parallel courses, similar but with some differences: one is addressed to business owners, the other is designed for workers. Both are divided into 4 weeks for 4 modules, where each module covers a specific area of expertise.
The final certification is an important part of the program. We designed it taking into account not only the content learned during the course, but also the skills that a person may have gained in other situations. To do this, we have adopted the European Commission's ECVET system, which serves to ensure the transparency and recognition of qualifications between different systems.
We are also planning to use open badges, ensuring the transparency and the innovativeness of the system, and we are doing this together with the Italian agency headed by CINECA, which deals with open badges at national level.
7. Such a project requires a lot of research, from analysis of international best practice to comparison with the actual employees of the companies. How did you go about it?
We planned a first phase of research, entrusted to Spanish partner GAIA. The research was carried out both by analysing international best practice and submitting questionnaires to workers and business owners. It is not a search valid for statistical purposes, but it has served to give us an idea of what is happening in Europe.
8. What is the most critical element you have had to deal with so far?
When planning the project, the most complex aspect was designing the certification.
From the point of view of promoting Smart Working, however, the most critical element continues to be the resistance we encounter in business owners and workers.
9. Being a multi-national project, it seems natural to ask how Italy is seen. How is our country positioned compared to other European States? Which countries are more culturally ready and advanced for Smart Working? Which are the ones which have more difficulty?
It should be said that, at the moment, except in rare cases, there are no reliable official data on Smart Working, either for Italy or for other countries. From the data collected through research like ours or from direct experience, however, striking evidence has emerged. We particularly expected Smart Working to be more common practice in northern countries as opposed to the southern ones, which include Italy. This is true, but only in part. Two emblematic cases refute this perception.
One, negatively, concerns Germany. We thought it was very advanced in the promotion and implementation of Smart Working, however it is not, on the contrary it is quite behind for two reasons: on the one hand, the prevailing type of industry, the manufacturing industry, which it is impossible to translate into remote working, because if it comes to assembling pieces, it cannot be done at a distance; on the other, because the legislation on work organization is so strict that it often discourages the application of Smart Working.
A positive case is Spain, which is almost comparable to advanced countries like the UK. In particular, there are some communities, like the Basque Country, where many public administrations have produced important Smart Working programs and are analysing the pros and cons.
The most advanced European country, again without being able to count on reliable statistical data, is probably the Netherlands: in some companies in the Netherlands the concept has even reversed, so that it is the employer who has to justify having the employees at the office and not the other way round.
In Italy the situation is patchy: there are very advanced examples, like the one you are experiencing at TIM, but many are still lagging behind. The most innovative cases are the ones regarding startups, especially in the IT sector, that are born digital, we could say they are native digital, because they are naturally result-orientated rather than control-oriented.
10. What obstacles still prevent a massive expansion of Smart Working in companies in Italy today?
The main obstacle is anxiety, both in terms of a need for control by the business owner and the fear of breaking patterns that are so deep-rooted to believe that they are the only ones possible. Anxiety is a major obstacle for workers as well, who fear that some of their ability will not be recognized or that they will lose contact with others.
Another major obstacle is due to the strong conservatism of the legislation, a problem experienced not only in Italy.
While awaiting legislative developments, I hope that The Digital Workplace project will make a significant contribution to cultural change and thinking in companies and workers.
Technologies are absolutely essential to spread Smart Working, but - first of all - it is important to initiate a cultural change in attitude on the part of both business owners and workers.
The European project The Digital Workplace can facilitate this process.


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Yesterday we got to meet my MC, Jeff Powell, but I thought today we could meet the main characters for Jeff's Feldall Saga.
*The setting is an office in the Keep, a large desk in front of me with a woman sitting in the chair behind it, and a man sitting on the edge. Both have dark brown hair, green eyes, and are dressed in the Feldall colours of cream, green, and gold. I sit in one of three chairs on the other side, notebook in hand*
Unlike my 3rd person limited point of view, Jeff chose to head hop for his series, mostly sticking to the rulers of House Feldall, the twins Jasmine and —
Jayden: Why does the author get a solo interview and we have to share? We're the ones who have to cope with Sir Blunderbutt, you'd think we deserve a little more prestige.
Jasmine: Don't be an ass. You're lucky she wants to talk to you at all. Not like you have anything intelligent to offer.
Jayden: *winks at me* Ah, she just brought me here to stare at me anyway.
KW: *clears throat* Anyway. Jasmine and Jayden. From what I hear from Jeff's stories, you two manage a demesne, frequently save the country from peril, sort out of the dramas in your personal lives, and still somehow have time to meet with me. How do you do it? Or, more important, why do you do it?
Jasmine: I think the answer to both question is: what choice do we have? Our parents are both dead, which legally should have meant Jayden is responsible for everything. Fortunately, my father was smarter than that and left the Keep to us jointly.
Jayden: Depriving me of my birthright, you mean.
Jasmine: Tell me you care.
Jayden: *shrug* I hate paperwork.
Jasmine: As for the saving the country, that's … well, I don't know what that is. A few months ago I would have said it was a series of coincidences that kept putting Feldall in the middle of these disasters. Now that we've met Jeff, I guess we can blame it all on him. Unless you believe Brady's theory.
KW: Which side of the argument do you fall on?
Jasmine: As much as I don't like the idea of someone else controlling my life, I prefer that idea over the thought that we just suffer chronic bad luck.
Jayden: You're only saying that because you don't want to agree with Brady. It would make Corey jealous.
*Jasmine's face turns red and her hand twitches towards the knife at her hip. Jayden smirks and turns back to me*
Jayden: How do you know Jeff anyway? Someone else from his world? You're not in love with him or anything are you? Because I would judge you.
KW: Actually, I'm his author.
*Expressions of shock on both twins' faces, followed by an alarmingly sly grin from Jayden*
Jayden: So you do to him what he does to us? Oh, this could be good.
Jasmine: Jayden.
Jayden: I'm serious. The man's a pain in my ass. Can you give him a third nipple? Or maybe a little trouble down in the trouser area?
Jasmine: Jayden!
Jayden: What?! Tell me that wouldn't give you great satisfaction over some of the things he's put us through.
Jasmine: ….
Jayden: Fine. *to me* We'll talk after.
KW: So how did you react when you first found out about Jeff's existence and the role he plays in your lives? Did you believe it?
Jasmine: Hardly. Would you? But considering the source of the information, we had to give the benefit of the doubt. And then Brady and Maggie found that spell and poof, here he is. Hard not to believe it anymore.
KW: Is he what you expected?
Jayden: He's soft, none too quick in the thinking, and can't sit a horse to save his life. My sister may believe he is who he claims to be, but I have a hard time crediting our world and the existence of the gloriousness that is me on someone who doesn't know useful end of a sword.
Jasmine: It would be like you writing a book on humility, brother.
Jayden: What would be the use? I know I'm wonderful. I know about twenty ladies in the household who would agree.
Jasmine: Give them another month and they'll see their way clear. The way the rest of the ladies you've dallied with eventually do.
Jayden: You're just jealous because you stick with two lovers.
Jasmine: One. I stick with one. Brady is not my lover. He's an old friend. That is it, that is all, and damn Jeff Powell for thinking otherwise.
Jayden: You want to rethink my request to have Ms Walsh give the man a rash?
Jasmine: … Maybe.
KW: Sorry to cut in, but I'm afraid we're out of time.
Jayden: That's too bad. We hardly got to know you.
KW: That's all right. I know you well enough to know that you won't get a chance to know me.
Jasmine: Ha! I like you.
Jayden: Ah well, was worth a try. Will you give my request some thought? Give old Jeff a bit of his own medicine?
KW: Oh, I think he'll get a few eye-openers in the coming pages. But we can re-evaluate later if you don't agree.
This was one of my early impressions of both characters, but Jeff's was a little different. Here's today's short excerpt from Evensong:
Even his characters had stepped full-fledged out of his head and into the room.
Jeff picked out the black and gold embroidery on Jasmine's outfit with the hawk sigil of Feldall on the breast, the hard glint in her eyes, the way her long fingers handled the dragonbone hilt of her blade. Seeing her like this, Jeff felt he had never given her enough credit. She was beautiful. And cold. The way she glared at him made him shiver.
Jayden, on the other hand, was just what Jeff had imagined, right down to the roguish smile. A collection of contradictions: relaxed but alert, smug but likeable. Whoever had casted these two had done almost a better job of creating them than Jeff had in writing them.