text:
Page 16625
1 Monday, 1 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Alex Demirdjian for
13 the Prosecution, with Tom Hannis, Crispian Smith, and our legal intern,
14 Thomas Hughes.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
16 Slobodan Cvijetic, Ms. Melody Whittaker, and Ms. Claire Plumb appearing
17 for Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
19 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 Mr. Demirdjian, we've been alerted to an application that will be
22 made or is about to be made before we proceed with this mornings's first
23 witness.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours. And if we could go in
25 private session for a moment to address this matter.
Page 16626
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
2 [Private session]
3 (redacted)
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Page 16627
11 Pages 16627-16633 redacted. Private session.
Page 16634
1 (redacted)
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9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL: If you're satisfied, sir, with the particulars on
13 that sheet, would you please sign it and hand it back to the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. It must be the change
15 of climate. That's why I'm coughing.
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and [Microphone not activated] marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
18 Exhibit P1673, thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: Now, Mr. Witness, we mean no disrespect when we
20 refer to you as Mr. Witness or by the number that has been assigned to
21 you as a pseudonym. It's just that the -- having regard to the
22 protective measures that have been afforded, that is the way in which --
23 that is the most practical way to proceed.
24 Now in addition to what would have told us already, could you
25 tell us what your profession is or was and what your ethnicity is and
Page 16635
1 what your date of birth is ...
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE HALL: Yeah. We would go into private session for this.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
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Page 16636
11 Pages 16636-16639 redacted. Private session.
Page 16640
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9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, before we move on, if I'm not
12 wrong, this witness is called for the limited purpose of covering
13 adjudicated facts 500 to 505; is that right?
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In addition, there are also four adjudicated
15 facts that were challenged by the Defence, 1214, which the witness just
16 dealt with. 1215. 1218. I believe there was 1216 as well, though I'm
17 not sure this was properly challenged, so let's just say 1214, 1215, and
18 1218 are the additional facts that he will be dealing with.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. But then in the ones I mentioned, 500 to
20 505 --
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- you do realise that four of them already taken
23 judicial notice of.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: That is 500, 502, 503 and 505.
Page 16641
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I understand the ones that have a line through
4 them are the ones that we will be dealing with.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: A line through.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, in the adjudicated facts 500 to 503 in the
7 decision they're all in one fact, and there's a line through specific
8 facts.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So --
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So that's what I will be dealing with.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, thank you.
13 Q. Sir, we are now in public session, I will ask you to be careful
14 not to identify yourself when speaking.
15 You told us that your street name changed, and I will not be
16 saying the names of the streets, but when did that change occur?
17 A. That was before any combat activity, when -- when the texts was
18 changed from Latinic script to Cyrillic script, and also they changed the
19 street names. That was before any combat activities so before April.
20 Q. Very well. Now you told us earlier that you were dismissed from
21 the police and then you went home. Could you explain to the Trial
22 Chamber very briefly what you did during this time, after you were
23 dismissed.
24 A. Nothing. I moved about freely. I monitored the situation. I
25 watched TV, and I could tell that things are not going to come out right.
Page 16642
1 And then there was a curfew that was introduced in April between 10.00 in
2 the evening and 7.00 in the morning, or 6.00 in the morning. So it
3 wasn't easy. On one occasion I was stopped at a check-point. There they
4 were check-points with machine-gun nests also at all major routes towards
5 Banja Luka, Doboj, Batajnica.
6 So that kind of things were happening. And we would get together
7 and discuss what was going on. We just couldn't figure it out.
8 Q. Now, it is an admitted fact in this case that a takeover took
9 place in the municipality of Teslic around the 3rd or the 4th of June,
10 1992. Now, what I want to deal with is a time when you were arrested.
11 Could you tell the Trial Chamber when did that occur?
12 A. I was arrested on the 5th of June, 1992.
13 Q. Who arrested you?
14 A. A group of people came I don't -- didn't know in camouflage
15 uniforms with white belts. According to me, they were military
16 policemen, because that's the kind of uniform military policemen used to
17 wear. There was five, six, or seven of them. I can't remember. They
18 were looking for me. I was planning to take my rifle back and hand it in
19 after the curfew but they came before I did so. They came with a red van
20 and they called out to me. I said, yes, and they asked me to come down.
21 They wanted to ask me something. And immediately when I came down and
22 asked them, What is it? They started hitting me. They brought me down
23 to the ground. My mother came to me but they pushed her away and leaned
24 her against a wall. One of them had a bayonet and put it under her
25 throat, kept it there for a few minutes. They beat me up. They didn't
Page 16643
1 tie me up and they just threw me into the van. They asked me where the
2 weapons were, the automatic rifle and the five cartridges of ammunition.
3 They told me that, today, on -- or that day was the last day when one
4 should hand in the weapons. Two or three of them went upstairs and took
5 the semi-automatic gun, they put me in the van, and they took me to the
6 SUP building. They said that I would be killed if they determined that
7 someone has fired from my rifle. They sent rifle to Banja Luka. They
8 put me in the detention unit in the police station, and I saw that there
9 were many people I knew, officials, my colleagues. It was full, this
10 detention unit.
11 Q. You told us at the beginning that you were planning to take your
12 rifle back. Was this announced in any way? Why were you planning to
13 return it?
14 A. A neighbour of mine, a husband of a relative of mine,
15 Mr. Aco Kovacevic who was an official in the local commune before, he
16 told me that it was broadcast over the radio that all the weapons need to
17 be handed in by the 5th of June, that that's the deadline. And I said
18 okay. And I said let's go together, and my brother would drive me there.
19 So I asked him can you come to my place at about 8.00 and then we'll see
20 what happens because I was told earlier that I could keep the weapons,
21 but these guys came half an hour, maybe an hour before we were due to
22 leave and they took me away.
23 Q. And without giving the specifics of the location, just to clear
24 this up for the Trial Chamber, you told us earlier that you had an
25 apartment in town and you had a house 3 kilometres away from the town of
Page 16644
1 Teslic. Where were you when you were arrested?
2 A. I was in my house, which is 3 kilometres away from the town
3 proper.
4 Q. Very well. Now, you told us that you were taken to the police
5 station and you were held there. Where exactly were you held?
6 A. I was held in the cells that we had in the police station. This
7 is the building adjacent to the building of the police station in the
8 basement.
9 Q. Very well.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we pull up 65 ter 10557, please.
11 Your Honours, I'm about to use a few of the photographs we took
12 during the site visit. I hope that there's no objection to that.
13 Q. Very well. Sir, can you see this photograph on the screen?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So what are we looking at?
16 A. This is the police station, where I used to work.
17 Q. Very well. And the cells that you told us are not in this
18 building; correct?
19 A. No. Or, rather, yes. My brother was held in the last room on
20 the left-hand side in this building later on, when they brought him in.
21 That's where the police weapons used to be kept. And my brother was held
22 there for about five or six days.
23 Q. How about yourself, were you held in this building?
24 I will repeat that question.
25 A. No, no.
Page 16645
1 Q. And just before we move away from this picture, can you tell us,
2 in this building we see a number of windows. To your knowledge, who
3 worked in those offices?
4 A. You mean earlier, when it was the time when government was normal
5 or during this pre-war activity period?
6 Q. I'm talking about, if you know, during the time of your arrest or
7 shortly prior to that?
8 A. To the right, ground floor, these were the offices of the duty
9 officers. Above them was the crime department offices. And above that,
10 was a meeting room.
11 On the left-hand side, the first room was the waiting-room. And
12 from that waiting-room, you go into a corridor, and there were the
13 offices for IDs and passports, and a woman used to work there. Never
14 mind.
15 And above that was with a clerk in charge of weapons. And, at
16 the end, there was this room where we kept ammunition and weapons but
17 where later they put detainees. And then the three rooms above that was
18 the crime department. The first one was the head, and then on the top
19 floor was the commander's assistant and then behind it was the
20 communications centre, where I used to work.
21 Q. Very well.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I ask for this document to be admitted, Your
23 Honours.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no objection.
25 The Trial Chamber visited the location. We have photos of all the rooms.
Page 16646
1 I don't know what the purpose is. And, also, this photo is not on the 65
2 ter list. We didn't have notice about it. Or maybe ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, is it right that not one of your
7 documents on your document list is on the 65 ter list?
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: These are all the photos from the site visit,
9 indeed, Your Honours. I don't know if there's an issue of notice here or
10 if anybody has an objection, but ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HALL: I have a problem, Mr. Demirdjian, in that a site
13 visit is to elucidate for the benefit of -- especially the Trial Chamber
14 but for everyone, the evidence that has been already been heard. And
15 whatever site visit is, it is not an occasion to receive evidence. I
16 know that we did take photographs, extensive photographs, of the areas
17 that we saw, and -- but -- and I confess a measure of uncertainty, as to
18 the evidential status of this material, but I think it is fairly well
19 settled that it would not be -- that the site visit would not have been a
20 vehicle for receiving evidence. So although there is no objection, as
21 such, from the Defence, and although, I suppose, it could be powerfully
22 argued that no harm is done, I have grave reservations about giving this
23 material the status of evidence because it is sort of out of -- out of
24 kilter with the -- what we understand the purpose of the site visit to
25 be.
Page 16647
1 I remain open to be persuaded to the contrary, but instinctively,
2 I would say no.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I am aware that there is a lot of
4 material that came through the site visit, and I do believe there is
5 certain things such as comments and records that we made that should not
6 be considered as evidence. Inasmuch as these images assist us in
7 understanding the testimony of this witness, I don't think that there's a
8 general rule that bars us from admitting photos that we took during that
9 visit. It is not -- as I said, it is not something substantive in of
10 itself. If you don't believe that these photos can assist, you there's a
11 number of photos that will come, that I would seek to use as well, which
12 my assist us in understanding, for example where the witness was, from
13 which angle he was able to see certain things, especially when we get to
14 his detention in the cell.
15 I could deal with it without the photos, but I think it would
16 help us to have them. So, I don't have -- yeah. But again, I don't
17 think there's a general rule barring us from using these documents.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE HALL: Does counsel for Mr. Stanisic have a view on this?
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not objecting to
21 having these photos shown to the witness, but I don't see why the photos
22 should be admitted. There already are photographs that are on the 65 ter
23 list, and this just makes the total sum of evidence larger. I don't mind
24 that the witness is shown the photographs, but ...
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, just one last thing if I may add.
Page 16648
1 Rule 89 does allow you to admit any evidence that you consider to be
2 relevant or have probative value, so if that can assist in this
3 determination.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: We are wondering, Mr. Demirdjian, why is there no
6 application, then, to have them on the 65 ter, so then we could consider
7 it and take a decision on it. This seems a little bit awkward as --
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I understand, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- procedurally.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I understand, Your Honours, and I thought that I
11 would make the application orally to not to burden ourselves again with
12 motions which deal really with what are photographs. So I considered it
13 not to be -- to be an issue that we could have raised orally.
14 Again, as I said, I could continue without them. It's just for
15 the purpose of illustration.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Demirdjian, whereas we share your concern about
19 overburdening the -- this -- this hearing with motions, we think that out
20 of an abundance of caution such new photographs -- when I say new, those
21 photographs taken on the site visit, which, in your estimation could be
22 helpful should be identified in advance and listed in an application to
23 include it in the 65 ter list, then we would be back on track
24 procedurally as to the channel for moving these items in as evidence.
25 But, the -- as I said, whereas there is merit in your argument about a
Page 16649
1 motion without notice on your feet, we are a bit unsure as to where that
2 might lead us.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Well, Your Honours, what we could do
4 for the time being, if you wish for us to file a motion, is at the moment
5 we can mark these documents for identification, we could file a motion
6 afterwards, and we will make sure that for future photographs if any need
7 to be used we will file a motion in advance. And if you don't want to
8 deliberate on the matter right away, we could at least mark them for
9 identification. But the witness can actually talk about the photographs.
10 JUDGE HALL: Well, in as much as the witness is on the stand, we
11 have the photograph in front of us, I suppose it could be marked for
12 identification at this point.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So I will seek to mark this document for
14 identification, please.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So the photograph may be marked for
16 identification.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
18 Exhibit P1674, marked for identification. Thank you.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
20 Now, could we pull up the next photograph which is 10558, please.
21 Q. Sir, you will see a new photograph appear on the screen in a
22 moment. Very well.
23 Do you recognise this building?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what this building was used for
Page 16650
1 prior to the war?
2 A. Here, on the left, the entrance was the entrance to the premises
3 of the ham radio enthusiasts. And then in this building there was
4 also the -- there were the offices of the municipal committee and the
5 municipal bodies. There were the information offices. On the right,
6 there were apartments but they were turned into offices.
7 The second entrance from the satellite dish is the entrance to
8 the remand prison which was in the basement. And upstairs a colleague of
9 mine lived. There's another entrance from the front; we can't see it in
10 this photograph right now. An entrance from back side was also made.
11 That led to the ID and passport department of the SUP.
12 Q. And this is the building you told us you were detained in?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you told us that the second entrance is the entrance to the
15 remand prison, which was in the basement. And is that where you were
16 detained?
17 A. The first entrance from here. It's not the one above which
18 there's a satellite dish, but the other which can be only seen poorly.
19 There are two plaques above it, one white and one blue; that's the
20 entrance that leads down to the basement.
21 Q. Very well. Now, who took you to this cell?
22 A. My colleague. Letic is his last name. I can't remember his
23 first name, but he remained in service during the war. He was a young
24 police officer.
25 Q. And who were guarding the premises?
Page 16651
1 A. There were no guards down there. We were locked up, and we were
2 behind metal doors, and there were also bars, in addition. But down
3 there, there were no guards. The guards were at the entrance.
4 Q. And who was guarding at the entrance?
5 A. Mostly reserve police officers, or active servicemen. They would
6 walk to and fro between the two buildings, this one and the police
7 station. And at any given moment, there were about a dozen police
8 officers there, either active or reserve.
9 Q. Very well. And before I move away from the prison cell, could
10 you tell us, what were the conditions of detention inside the cell?
11 A. When I got there, it was disastrous. People were all beaten up,
12 bloody, and I was appalled. I couldn't believe it when I entered. (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted).
16 Q. How many people were detained with you?
17 A. It's difficult to say. Both rooms were full. One was -- the
18 size of one was about 6 by 6 metres, and the other was actually a
19 restroom. There were very many of us. Only the injured ones were
20 allowed to lie down; otherwise there wasn't enough room for all of us to
21 lie down. So many of us had to stand.
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Demirdjian, if I might interrupt briefly.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, one of the things that I neglected to
25 mention when I was asking the introductory questions of you was our
Page 16652
1 procedure in terms of the breaks, and for -- both for technical reasons,
2 that is, having regard to the recording system and also to allow for the
3 convenience of witnesses, we do not sit for longer than an hour and a
4 half, and the Court's day ends at 1.45 because we have to make the
5 courtroom available for another trial.
6 We are scheduled to take our first break at 10.25, which is in
7 eight minutes. But notwithstanding the fixed breaks that we have, and
8 I'm mindful of what you would have indicated earlier about the
9 respiratory difficulties you're having, if at any point you need a break,
10 if you would indicate that to us, we would certainly accommodate you. So
11 if you are able to continue for the next eight minutes, then we would
12 have a 20-minute break and we would come back to resume your testimony.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my condition certainly won't
14 improve. I started coughing yesterday. It must be the change of the
15 climate and the humid air here.
16 I can continue. I understand that it may bother you, but I can
17 turn my head when I have to cough.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours --
19 JUDGE HALL: It doesn't bother us. We are concerned about your
20 comfort and convenience, sir.
21 Sorry, Mr. Zecevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, to my knowledge we have a medical personnel
23 in the building so maybe during the break maybe the witness can be
24 escorted to the doctor.
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, if that would assist. Thank you -- thank you,
Page 16653
1 Mr. Zecevic.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I can wrap up this topic in the next few minutes
3 and then we can take the break for the witness.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
6 Q. Very well, sir. Let me see where I was. Right.
7 Now you told us that the room was 6 by 6. And you told us both
8 rooms were full. Just to clarify for the Trial Chamber, going down to
9 the basement, which cell were you detained in?
10 A. I was in the first cell by the entrance, and I was standing below
11 the window, one of the windows where there were bars. And sometimes I
12 would hold on to these bars and occasionally I would squat down because
13 the room was full of urine, so you couldn't sit or lie there, and we were
14 all bothered by the stench, the ammoniac.
15 Q. And you were telling us that you were standing below the window.
16 What did you see through this window? What were you -- were you able to
17 see, first of all, through this window?
18 A. When they allowed some air in, I was in a position to see
19 everything. Bringing people in, beating them. I couldn't see it, but I
20 heard them moaning and groaning. But when they beat up people outside,
21 then I could see everything. I could the state they were in, and I
22 looked upon all that went on.
23 Q. Can you give us an example of such an occurrence.
24 A. When they were beating Mujo Zukanovic, he was a white collar
25 crime inspector, we looked on. When they were beating Kopic, also known
Page 16654
1 as Rambo, we also all looked on. (redacted)
2 (redacted). And when they were beating
3 Remzija Jasarevic we also watched that and so on. I don't know what you
4 want to hear, but anyway they were beating people there. They lined up
5 the police and the police beat them, even Miroslav Pijunovic, he broke
6 off a bough from a nearby tree and used it to beat Rambo. Later they
7 took him away behind the committee building and we never saw him again.
8 Later on, I heard that he was killed.
9 Q. Very well. And the last question before the break, you told us
10 about seeing Rambo being beaten by Pijunovic. Who else was present
11 during this meeting?
12 A. There was --
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what has this line of
14 questioning to do with the adjudicated facts for which the witness has
15 been called?
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, this witness is called to deal with
17 his detention in the police station and what he witnessed there. This
18 was my last question on the topic before moving on to the next building
19 where he was held, and it's just fair enough to let him tell us what the
20 conditions were during his detention and what he was able to see.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness has been
22 called here to testify as to where he was detained, and that's all. And
23 the Prosecutor, for the last ten or 15 minutes, has been asking questions
24 about who was beating who.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: 5 -- 504, Mr. Krgovic. Just as one example.
Page 16655
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. But it says
2 that they were detained but there's no mention of the conditions or
3 individual incidents. And the adjudicated fact reads, 504:
4 "As of 3 June 1992, civilians Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats
5 were detained by the Bosnian Serbs, members of the military police and
6 the civilian police, and members of the reserve police forces and
7 paramilitary units."
8 That's all the -- that's mentioned in this adjudicated fact.
9 Individual incidents are not mentioned and nor are individual persons who
10 were beaten.
11 The Prosecutor is supposed to question the witness about these
12 adjudicated facts, so there should be only one question about who
13 provided security, and nothing else.
14 JUDGE HALL: Except, Mr. Krgovic, as a matter of sheer logic, if
15 that is all that is led, then the impression could be had that it was a
16 benign detention, whereas, what the questions that have been elicited so
17 for point out is that it was not. So it strikes me that it is within the
18 context of what is -- the fact in respect of which the witness is being
19 called on to testify.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Sir, could you just finish your answer in telling us who was
23 present during the beating of Mr. Kopic?
24 A. He was beaten by Miroslav Pijunovic, also known Piko, and others
25 who belonged to the so-called Red Berets and also reserve police
Page 16656
1 officers. All of them beat him. They were standing in a circle around
2 him, they beat him with hands and feet, and later he was even tied to a
3 tree. All of them beat him with hands, feet, sticks, some of them -- he
4 was a rather strong guy.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, Your Honours. I have an
6 intervention to the transcript. Could the witness repeat his first
7 sentence, slowly, who exactly it was who beat this person.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The group leader, Miroslav
9 Pijunovic, also known as Piko, he beat him, and later on everybody else
10 did. He even lined up the police and then he was taken to that lineup
11 and then everybody beat him. Predrag Markocevic and Kuzmanovic, the
12 chief of the SUP, watched. They were standing in the staircase watching
13 and laughing, Marinko Djukic, too.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Once again, Your Honour, I -- maybe I will ask for
15 official correction from the transcript. What the witness said doesn't
16 make sense.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise, but what is this objection? I
18 don't understand.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the better part -- the better part of the
20 witness's answer has not been entered. Because he was explaining what
21 would have happened with -- with the policemen who didn't beat this
22 person in the lineup.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. Well, let's let the witness answer again.
24 Q. Sir, it appears that part of your answer was not entered in the
25 transcript. Could you please perhaps repeat your answer slowly so that
Page 16657
1 it makes it in the official transcript. Thank you.
2 A. There were many of them in front of the police station, there was
3 much coming and going anyway. So a lot of people were out there, and one
4 of the leaders - at least I think he was one of the leaders - was
5 Miroslav Pijunovic. He was very active in repression, he beat who he
6 wanted to, and he was the first one to beat him with a stick, with his
7 feet, and his hands. Later, the other members of the so-called Red
8 Berets beat him. I don't know all their names. I know some of them but
9 they were not present then.
10 Then they lined up the police officers who were present, and then
11 he was led between the two lines of police officers and they would all
12 beat him with their hands or feet or sticks if they had any. So he had
13 to walk through once, and once again, and then he was tide up. And then
14 Miroslav Pijunovic broke off one of the boughs, then he removed the twigs
15 and used that bough to beat him on the back and on his legs after which
16 he fell on the ground, and then they untied him. They took him to the
17 building and, that is, they took him behind the building and I don't know
18 what happened later. We didn't see him again.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This may be a convenient time, Your Honours.
20 Just before, perhaps we can also mark for identification the picture
21 that's on the screen.
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
24 Exhibit P1675, marked for identification. Thank you.
25 JUDGE HALL: It's 10.30. We'll resume at 11.00.
Page 16658
1 [The witness stands down]
2 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, while the witness is being brought
5 in, I just wanted to inquire as to the matter of the material from the
6 site visit and the way we were hoping to deal with it.
7 I know that in other trials the bulk of the material was admitted
8 in evidence at one stage of the case. I don't know what the plans were
9 in this trial, whether Your Honours were expecting the parties to submit
10 a motion because in relation to these photos, I was wondering if it is
11 better to deal with it in bulk or have small motions to add them to the
12 65 ter list. I don't know if there's any -- anything has been thought
13 about in this ...
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Demirdjian, thank you for that question.
17 We will give it some consideration and we trust that we have will
18 have an answer -- a definitive answer for you by the end of today.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. Sir, are you able to continue?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Before I continue with the next topic, I want to go back to
23 something you told us during the first part day. At page 16 of the
24 transcript we were talking about, if you remember, the street names and
25 they told us that they changed from Latin to Cyrillic. I failed to ask
Page 16659
1 you at that time what did those new signs look like, the new signs in
2 Cyrillic that you mentioned?
3 A. The usual, blue boards with white lettering, I think. In
4 Cyrillic.
5 Q. Very well.
6 A. Regular.
7 Q. And do you actually know who made those changes?
8 A. It was done by a utility company, Rad, from Teslic. They were
9 ordered to do so by the authorities of the time.
10 Q. Very well. Now, we were talking about your detention in the
11 cells of the SJB building. How many days were you held there?
12 A. Five days.
13 Q. And in relation to the other detainees that were held with you,
14 could you tell the Court what was their ethnic background?
15 A. They were Croats and Muslims.
16 Q. Now, what happened to you after those five days?
17 A. One day a bus parked in front of the prison building at the
18 entrance. There were two policemen there. Not our guys. I think
19 military policemen. They let us board the buses.
20 Initially, I thought they were taking to us to Pribinic, but they
21 were actually taking us toward the town proper and they brought us to the
22 Territorial Defence Staff.
23 Q. And what is the distance between the police station and the TO
24 warehouse?
25 A. Well, maybe 500 or 600 metres. Less than a kilometre.
Page 16660
1 Q. And what happened when you were brought to the Territorial
2 Defence Staff?
3 A. I don't know what you are referring to.
4 Q. You told us that you were brought there. What -- what happened
5 immediately when you were taken there? Were you taken somewhere in the
6 building or ... if you can describe that.
7 A. Yes. The bus stopped in front of this warehouse, the TO
8 warehouse. It had a wide gate with two doors, which were -- the gates
9 were open, and then they got us in, into this warehouse for -- or depot
10 for weapons, but it was already empty.
11 Q. Very well. And when you say "us," how many of you were detained
12 there?
13 A. One bus full of people, so 40 to 60 people. And then it went
14 back and brought another group.
15 Q. And did more people -- were more people brought in?
16 A. Yes. They were people coming all the time in groups of five,
17 ten, 15, day and night, 24 hours a day, they would be bringing people in
18 who were, allegedly, scheduled to be exchanged. I don't know what was
19 going on. We would never see them again.
20 Q. And how long were you detained in the TO warehouse?
21 A. I was detained there until August. So June, July. I was
22 released in August.
23 Q. And at the height of it, what was the highest number of detainees
24 that were held there at one time?
25 A. What do you mean? How many of us were there?
Page 16661
1 Q. Yes. Initially you told us that there was two busloads of 40 to
2 60 people and told us that the numbers increased. What was the highest
3 number of people detained there throughout your time?
4 A. Well, in the first day or two there was 200 or more than 200 of
5 us there. I didn't count the heads. But it was a big space, so there
6 was enough space for us.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we pull up P1349, please.
8 Q. And while we are pulling up the picture, sir, could you tell us
9 who was detained in the TO warehouse, if you recognise anyone, and who
10 else was detained with you?
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, sir.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: First of all, I believe I have a note here
19 saying that P1349 was under seal. So perhaps if we could not broadcast
20 it in the public.
21 Q. And, sir, and I apologise for interrupting. I don't want you to
22 list all the names of the people who were held there. Perhaps a better
23 question to ask would be what was the ethnic background of those that
24 were held with you.
25 A. They were Croats and Muslims. There were five or six colleagues
Page 16662
1 of mine there as well, policemen, active-duty policemen.
2 Q. And was there any specific characteristic of those who were
3 detained there?
4 A. I don't know what you're referring to again.
5 Q. Sorry, it's -- my question, it's maybe a little vague. What I
6 meant to say is you told us there were Croats and Muslims detained there.
7 And what I'm seeking from you is to explain to the Trial Chamber what
8 kind of Croats and Muslims were held there, were they from a certain
9 class of society or so on and so forth?
10 A. Ah, yes. Most of the people there, either policemen, then there
11 was the bank manager, the president of the Executive Board, the president
12 of the municipality, Seho Topcagic, people who held various positions.
13 My opinion is that what they wanted was to remove them. And then there
14 was a jeweller there who occasionally would be taken out, and then he
15 would turn gold into crosses and so on, for the Red Berets.
16 Q. Now, were there any guards at the TO warehouse?
17 A. Yes. There was a room. To the left from the entrance where we
18 entered, there was a small room, and the guards were in there.
19 Q. Very well. Before I carry on, are you able to see the picture on
20 your screen?
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we're at this issue, Mr. Demirdjian.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you elicit from the witness who the guards
24 were.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, I was about to do that. But I thought a
Page 16663
1 picture was on the screen. Let me carry on then.
2 Q. Could you tell us to which organisation the guards belonged to?
3 A. The guards -- well, they were mixed. They were police members
4 but most of them were reserves. Not so many active-duty policemen who
5 were involved doing their jobs. There were people I didn't know. There
6 was a guy I knew well who was there often, Mihajlovic. He used to beat
7 us. He would take us up to the office and beat the prisoners. They
8 never took me up there, but they would be beating people all night long.
9 It was wasn't always the same group of guards. They would rotate.
10 Q. What's the first name of this Mihajlovic?
11 A. Tomo Mihajlovic, nickname Kuka. Used to work for the garbage
12 depot. He was in charge of the garbage depot in Teslic.
13 Q. And were there any members of the paramilitary forces present at
14 the TO warehouse?
15 A. Yes. Yes, yes. Almost everybody used to come, Marijan Gacic
16 used to come. He was a taxi driver but he was also a paramilitary, a
17 difficult person. There were many people who had criminal records. Some
18 of them were people who I used to arrest. All sorts of people. They
19 would get assignments, I guess. There were guards around the building
20 and there were guards in this room in the building.
21 Q. So could you explain to the Court. You told us there were
22 policemen, mainly reserve policemen. And you are telling now there are
23 also members of paramilitary units. Do you know which paramilitary units
24 we're talking about?
25 A. These were either volunteers or reserve troops that were sort of
Page 16664
1 brought in by force. I also heard that there were prisoners there who
2 were given weapons. Not only that I heard so, I -- on one occasion,
3 there was a group of criminals that were brought to the check-point where
4 I was earlier on, and then I refused to work there with them.
5 Q. Sorry, maybe my question again was a little vague.
6 Did you know the name of these paramilitary units?
7 A. I knew the names of the people, but not their formations or
8 units. Whether they were part of a political party, parts of the
9 authorities, members of the reserve police, or army, I wouldn't know. I
10 know them as individuals. Some of them had military uniforms; some had
11 whatever they wanted. They had all sorts of insignia. There were
12 tricolour flags, come had kokades. It was all mixed.
13 Q. And you're telling us that there were some who had kokades and
14 all sorts of insignia. Did any of these guards ever tell you to which
15 paramilitary unit they belonged to?
16 A. No. I assumed they were part of some group of volunteers. They
17 never spoke about that. They only type of communication they had with us
18 was through kicks and hits. I didn't ask them. I didn't dare ask them
19 anything. I -- if I even looked them in the face, I would be beaten,
20 so ...
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Aleksic your intervention didn't come through on
22 the transcript. Could you repeat it, please.
23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were no
24 problems concerning the transcript. I stood up to say that this was a
25 leading question. The witness told us he didn't know and then the
Page 16665
1 question came, Do you know what group they belonged to. The witness
2 said, I know the names but not the groups they belonged to. And yet my
3 colleague insisted on hearing the names of these units.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is not a leading question to ask the
5 witness what unit they belonged to. I don't see how that's leading at
6 all.
7 JUDGE HALL: Let's proceed.
9 Q. Sir, do you see the picture on the screen?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recognise the building?
12 A. Yes. This is the Territorial Defence Staff building, at the
13 time.
14 Q. And in which part of the building were you held?
15 A. I was held at the ground floor. There are three windows on the
16 left-hand side here on the photo. These windows were high up. We
17 couldn't reach them. And there were bars, maybe one and a half metre,
18 that you could use to open the window.
19 Q. And how large was this room?
20 A. It was rather big, bigger than this room here. It was narrower
21 than this room we are in, but it was longer.
22 Q. Are you able to estimate in any way, in terms of metres, how wide
23 we're talking?
24 A. Was maybe 6 to 8 metres wide and maybe 20 metres long. I can't
25 tell you more precisely.
Page 16666
1 You can see the photo. It's from the beginning to the third
2 window and then the whole width of the building.
3 Q. Very well. Sir, you told us that you recognised Tomo Mihajlovic.
4 Could you tell the Court what he was wearing when you saw him at the TO
5 warehouse?
6 A. He was wearing reserve police uniform, because he was part of the
7 reserve force, police reserve force. He had an automatic rifle. He had
8 a pistol, a baton, and cuffs, everything. He would come very often, take
9 people out, bring people in, beat people, take them up to offices
10 upstairs, and they were calling people up throughout this time, all the
11 times at night. But they never took me up. I don't know why not, but
12 they didn't.
13 Q. Did there come a time where Mr. Mihajlovic took you out of the TO
14 warehouse?
15 A. Yes. Maybe a month after I got there. And I was not
16 interrogated at all. And then, on one occasion, he called out my name
17 and Hasanovic's name and a reserve guy who was -- who owned a private
18 company that -- for moving furniture and so on. There was Mr. Blagojevic
19 also who was a reserve policeman, a nice guy. And Tomo Mihajlovic then
20 unprovoked took this police baton out and hit me over the head about 15
21 times or so, and then Momir took this police baton from him and said try
22 hit him one more time and then I'll hit you. And then Tomo turned to him
23 and told him, you'll see what will happen to you now. (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 16667
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the name.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But they were not doing anything
3 out in the open, they were sending him [as interpreted]. And finally he
4 took me to the SUP building, he and the driver.
6 Q. So Mr. Mihajlovic took you to the SUP building?
7 A. Yes. He was the escort and Jovan Kupresak was the driver. He's
8 a nice guy. He is the brother of a colleague of mine.
9 Q. Where in the police station did he take you to?
10 A. There is only one police station in Teslic, to the police station
11 where I used to work. He took me to the first floor and left me there in
12 the corridor. After barely a minute or two from the office where the
13 secretary's assistant was, a man, short man, who had a dark green beret
14 on his head and a scar above his right eye, he asked me who I was. I
15 told him and he said, Hmm, you've come to the right place. You're not
16 going to leave this place alive. So he went back in and after maybe 30
17 seconds or so, let's say seven men came, young men, in -- with
18 sun-glasses, Italian, modern, and they wore camouflage uniforms and they
19 had an eagle coat of arms which is a Serbian coat of arms, I think, on
20 their left shoulder, and they started beating me, kicking me. One hold
21 my leg and kept me against a wall and the others were hitting me. I
22 tried to protect myself moving left to right, to avoid the worse blows.
23 And in all this commotion somebody's eyeglasses fell and I stepped on
24 them and they said -- one of them said, I'm going to kill you for this.
25 But they then suddenly ran down the stairs and I was left lying there.
Page 16668
1 And then the chief of the crime department, Milan Etic, picked me up,
2 helped me into the room, and set me down into an arm chair. I apologise.
3 And soon after that Pijunovic, Miroslav entered the room and he
4 asked this Nedic, did he say anything? And Nedic said, No, no, he's
5 fine. And then he hit me with his first with full force on my left-hand
6 side on my face and I fell down, and then he cursed my mother said if he
7 doesn't start talking I'll come in and slaughter him.
8 And a moment after that, a colleague of mine entered,
9 Marinko Djukic who was at the time assistant commander or something like.
10 He was a young policeman who had worked with me before, and he walked in,
11 started laughing. He used my nickname and said, Wouldn't you say that my
12 guys know how to beat? And I said, Well, yes. And then he said, But
13 this is nothing unless you start talking about the weapons and
14 everything. And I told him, Okay. Milan, write it down, I'll -- I'll
15 kill him personally. And -- or he said I'll kill him personally, but he
16 said okay. You are now in power, you weren't so brave before but it
17 seems you've changed.
18 And then the first question they put to me -- that Milan put to
19 me was about Odzak, when was it that I was there for the last time, and I
20 responded I was never in Odzak, never in my life. I have passed by but I
21 haven't been in the town. And he said, there are our guys there who have
22 to graze the grass. We have information that you were there. But I
23 said, no, I wasn't there. And then he asked me about the weapons. But
24 earlier when I used to work as a part of the special police, the reserve
25 police, I used to have hand grenades and such stuff and he asked me where
Page 16669
1 that stuff is.
2 Q. Sorry to interrupt you --
3 MR. KRGOVIC: One correction for the transcript, it's page 41,
4 line 23, 25 -- the witness mentioned that these guys wearing white belt.
5 It is not recorded.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I was going to get back to them, actually.
7 Thank you.
8 Q. Sir, you were telling us about these gentlemen who came in in
9 camouflage uniform with sun-glasses and eagle coat of arm. There's an
10 intervention to the transcript, did you say something about -- did you
11 say anything about a white belt?
12 A. That was white belt as worn by the military police. And they
13 also had shoulder straps also white. That's what I said.
14 Q. And you told us about the eagle coat of arms. What is the
15 significance of the eagle?
16 A. That eagle was worn by members of the Serb army, the legal
17 members of the Serb army. I, even now, see these insignia on the members
18 of the army of the Republic of Serbia. It's legal now. But where they
19 got it from at those times, I don't know. And they also wore the three
20 colours of the -- the Serbian colours. Those were not Bosnian insignia.
21 They were taking off all the red stars and kicking them about and putting
22 on these other insignia with the Serbian colours instead.
23 Q. Very well. Now is it fair to say that after your -- well, this
24 event, you were taken back to the TO warehouse?
25 A. Yes. When I was beaten there, I didn't know what was ahead. I
Page 16670
1 wanted to jump off the van and start running because we were driving past
2 a park. And I had a plan to go downstream and reach the Federation, but
3 my fellow police officer didn't let me, he said he would shout. But on
4 our way back, Momir, or, rather, Tomo Mihajlovic wasn't there, only the
5 driver. He was a good guy and I thought he wouldn't shoot at me.
6 So I didn't succeed. They didn't let us. I was brought back to
7 the TO. They were all lying there beaten up and bloody and I was
8 appalled, and Jozo said to me you faired well, look at me, but you will
9 make it. You will escape. And they were all beaten badly on that day.
10 Q. Now, sir, you were brought back to the TO warehouse and you told
11 us that you were beaten at the police and before that you also told us
12 that were beaten at the TO warehouse. Did anyone else beat you at the TO
13 warehouse?
14 A. Not on that day. On the following day, yes.
15 Q. And who did that?
16 A. All sorts of people came there. They were sitting by the
17 building drinking and I heard with my own ears. They said -- they were
18 saying who was down there and they also mentioned my name, and they said,
19 well, bring him, and then four or five or six of them would come and beat
20 everybody, including me. They started kicking the metal door, then we
21 all had to stand up and face the wall and raise three fingers and start
22 singing the song "koto kaze koto laze [phoen]," and then they would pick
23 the ones they wanted to beat.
24 Q. When you say "they," did you find out who these people were?
25 A. I know one well by sight but I don't know his name. He was tall
Page 16671
1 and had curly black hair. He entered and asked me -- or, rather, called
2 my name and asked where I was. And I responded. He brought a stick from
3 the Borja company, it was a timber processing company. He brought this
4 stick and hit me on the head on -- and on my back two or three times, and
5 I fell on the floor.
6 And when I turned around I saw him. Then he hit me once again
7 and I still have the scar here. Actually, two. And I bled badly. But
8 the stick broke when he hit me on the head. Then he left. I heard that
9 he got killed later somewhere.
10 Then there was Sava Kostic's son. He once came with a chain
11 taken off a chain-saw and he also had a leather glove. He beat me on the
12 back with that chain, and my -- my skin was all torn and so was my shirt.
13 Q. What was the last name of this Sava?
14 A. Kostic. His younger son Pero is -- actually, I know his son Pero
15 who is a good guy, but the other is a problem, has always been a problem,
16 and he had been brought in by the police several times and he was the one
17 who beat me.
18 Tomo Mihajlovic also entered but I only heard him. I didn't see
19 him because --
20 Q. Just one second, please. Did there come a time when you saw a
21 man by the name of Nebojsa?
22 A. Yes. On the first day when we were brought there Nebojsa entered
23 and Piko did. Down at the detention unit there was Mirsad Gilic. I'm
24 not sure about his first name, but he was a very nice guy, a Montenegrin.
25 He was a teacher. We used to meet formally in pubs and so on. In the
Page 16672
1 station they beat him with some wooden object. I don't know exactly
2 what. Then Piko and Nebojsa came. They called him Srbo, he was from
3 Serbia allegedly, and they said that he married a Radisic woman and took
4 her to Serbia, and they called out his name, Gilic. He was all bloody
5 and beaten and almost in a comma. And they were carrying a hammer with a
6 long handle. It must have weighed a kilo or two. And they approached
7 him. Piko took that hammer and swung his arm and he just raised his hand
8 and said, No, please not with the hammer. But he hit him on the head
9 with this hammer, and the hammer almost went through the skull. So he
10 killed him on the spot and the guards entered and carried Gilic outside.
11 Then Piko came, Saba Masinovic, the taxi driver was beaten up
12 there. Saban --
13 Q. Sir, just one second please. Could I ask you to focus your
14 answers to the specific question. And when I asking you about Nebojsa,
15 could you tell the Court if you noticed anything about his uniform or any
16 distinctive signs on him?
17 A. He wore something else every time. Most times he wore a police
18 uniform and he said that he was an active-duty police officer. He wore a
19 uniform hat with some insignia. But something else all the -- every
20 time, and then he wore -- had different weapons on him, pistols or
21 automatic rifles. But most times he wore a police uniform. For a while
22 he had a "kokarde" on his hat and on his belt. So nobody was able to
23 tell who he was with. They always called him Srbo or Nebojsa, but I'm
24 not sure it was his real name. I was unable to learn anything more about
25 him.
Page 16673
1 Q. Sir, did this Nebojsa ever speak to you and tell you to which
2 unit he belonged?
3 A. No. They never spoke to us about that. We were able to draw
4 some inferences; that's all. But they wouldn't say anything about
5 themselves.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I just have a moment, Your Honours.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I just seek to refresh the
9 witness's memory with one of his former statements, if that's all right.
10 JUDGE HALL: On which issue, Mr. Demirdjian?
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: On this issue of this individual we're just
12 talking about and which unit he belongs to. It is in relation to
13 adjudicated fact 1215.
14 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
16 JUDGE HALL: You remember the procedure.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Yes, Your Honours.
18 Your Honours, just to clarify this. I just hand him the document
19 directly and we don't show it on the screen, is that the procedure you
20 were alluding to?
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, and invite him to read the relevant portion
22 then ask your question.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
24 May I ask the usher to provide the witness with the statement he
25 provided on the 29th of May, 2010.
Page 16674
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, maybe ... on one occasion, he
2 said that he was one of Arkan's Men. Maybe that's what you're alluding
3 to. And he said, I'm one of Arkan's Men, I will kill you all. You have
4 to do this or that. So -- but let -- maybe that's what you're interested
5 in.
7 Q. Don't look at the statement sir, please. You can put it away.
8 Okay. Let's carry on with this. He told you he was one of Arkan's Men?
9 A. Yes. He told us all. He once came back and told us he was one
10 of Arkan's Men. I don't know if it's true, but he said it anyway. And
11 he said, you will remember me. You know who Arkan is. And we said, yes,
12 we do. That's how it was.
13 It's been a long time though. It's fortunate that I remember
14 this much. Well, I may have forgotten some things though.
15 Q. That's fine, sir. And did you notice any patches on his uniform?
16 A. Well, sometimes he had an eagle, another time he would have a --
17 that Serbian insignia. He dressed differently. You can see all sorts of
18 things on him. It seems that he liked to dress up. But I think that he
19 was more of a boaster than a real performer. That's my opinion.
20 Q. To your knowledge, outside this individual, do you know if other
21 men from Arkan's group were present in Teslic?
22 A. Well, they called themselves that. When you were imprisoned down
23 there, the guard who was a good guard, told us, be careful, Arkan's Men
24 are here. Don't make noise. When they enter sing, you know what to do.
25 If you make noise they will come and kill you all. That's what we were
Page 16675
1 told. We all had to face the wall then we were beating us. If somebody
2 turned around by chance as happened at the SUP, I once turned around
3 involuntarily, and someone had entered. And another young boy turned
4 around. And then they said, Turn around, you. And I wanted to turn
5 around but then I heard a shot and they had shot the guy -- the other guy
6 who had turned around.
7 So even when they were beating us the one from the other end was
8 able to see who was being beaten at the other end and vice versa. But
9 who dared turn around? And it was only that way that we got information
10 about who came there and who beat us.
11 Q. Very well. Earlier, sir, you told us that you were detained in
12 the TO warehouse until the month of August. What you did do after you
13 were released from the TO warehouse.
14 A. Nothing. It was limited. This Predrag Radulovic came, one of
15 the members of the special units of the Serb army, the police. He went
16 to Banja Luka. He found Predrag Radulovic and explained to him what was
17 going on, that the so-called Red Berets are mistreating Serbs. The Serb
18 military and the Serb police slapping them on the face in public,
19 shooting, all sorts of things were happening.
20 And then Predrag Radulovic got his groups of special units ready
21 and one early morning we heard shots. There was fighting. And we
22 assumed that it was either the HVO guys who had made their way to us or
23 the Muslims, and we were glad. We expected to be set free. But then
24 after a couple of hours the fighting stopped. (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 16676
1 (redacted). And he said what
2 are you two doing here? Did anybody beat you? And I didn't dare say.
3 So I said no, no, nobody. And he promised us he would release us. And
4 after a few days --
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May we shortly go into private session, please.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
7 [Private session]
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 16677
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
5 Q. Now, sir, after you were released, where did you stay?
6 A. I had an apartment in Teslic. I also had a house; I mentioned it
7 already. I didn't dare go there because everybody knew me well and
8 everybody was armed. I told you, even former criminals carried weapons.
9 And I even went to my house. Sometimes I stayed upstairs, sometimes
10 downstairs, but I didn't dare move about. I was advised not to move
11 about, and if I had to that I should inform the police.
12 Q. While you were out -- let me ask you, were you aware of the
13 presence of the Serb Radical Party in Teslic?
14 A. Yes, yes. There was the SDS, there were the radicals, there were
15 various parties, especially in that pre-war period and during the war
16 there were radicals too, and all parties.
17 Q. Did you know whether any armed group was related to the radicals
18 in Teslic?
19 A. The radicals had their own men, the group they were called
20 Seselj's Men. I had no personal contact with them, but I heard of their
21 existence. The so-called Seselj Men. There were the White Eagles, the
22 Arkan's Men. That's what I heard from others. I didn't dare ask anybody
23 who they belonged to. In Teslic you could find all the various
24 formations that there were on the Serbian side. They were either locals
25 or people from Serbia. There were vehicles from Serbia. Many soldiers
Page 16678
1 arrived in trucks with Subotica or Novi Sad licence plates. Where they
2 went, I don't know. Probably they were deployed in the hills and
3 mountains around Teslic, but they would stop at Teslic and go to shops
4 and pubs and after a short while they continued toward Banja Luka. Where
5 exactly, I don't know.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: I apologise. Page 51, line 12, the witness said I
7 never had contact with them.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, I heard that, too. You're right. Yes,
9 yes. Right after White Eagles and Arkan's Men, I never had contact with
10 them.
11 Q. Sir, you told us that you knew of Seselj's Men and you knew of
12 all these groups. You told us you already saw one man who claimed to be
13 in Arkan's Men. Did you ever see any members of the White Eagles or
14 Seselj's men in Teslic?
15 A. Yes, I did because they arrived in black jeeps. They had black
16 flags or had the skulls. And they had white eagles on their sleeves,
17 black uniforms. They were shouting, screaming, shooting. Croats and
18 Muslims had to hang out white flags or sheets for them to know who we
19 were. And then they would just fire bursts at our houses. They weren't
20 people I knew, so I was afraid they would shoot me. So I removed that
21 white flag and they didn't fire at my house anymore. But they did fire
22 at the neighbours' houses.
23 I heard the story. They stopped near my house, and I heard them
24 say that there's nothing to loot here. Everything has been looted so
25 we're leaving tomorrow. I heard them speak to each other because their
Page 16679
1 two jeeps had stopped, and I never saw them again. On the following day
2 they were gone. They probably came to loot or ... I don't know.
3 Q. Very well. The last topic that I'd like to deal with before the
4 break, sir, is the following.
5 You told us about the police station and the TO warehouse. To
6 your knowledge were there any other detention centres in Teslic?
7 A. Yes. Pribinic was some 15 kilometres ago [as interpreted]. That
8 was one very nasty camp. Then there was Partisan in the very centre of
9 Teslic. Partisan actually was a large gym with all you need for a
10 workout.
11 I apologise.
12 Then at the Mladost school, Croats were detained. And it was
13 mostly Muslims who were detained at Partisan.
14 Then there was the Proleter sports ground. They had some
15 changing rooms there. And also at Banja Vucica they were -- some people
16 were locked up in the tennis courts. They also had some closed
17 facilities there, and my brother was held there for a while before he was
18 moved to where I was.
19 Q. Very well. And how do you know about all these detention
20 centres? You told us that you knew about your brother held in the last
21 one. But about the others, how do you know about them being detention
22 centres?
23 A. I know from speaking to people. A friend of mine, Jozo Mihic, he
24 was detained with my brother. And then there was my brother and then
25 there was a relative of mine and several friends, they were detained
Page 16680
1 there for two or three weeks. And they actually received rather good
2 treatment. They got food from home. But we faired very badly.
3 Down at the SUP in the weapons storage, he was badly beaten up.
4 My brother, I mean. Three ribs were broken. And then he was moved to
5 where I was. And this young boy, Almir I think was his name, he wasn't
6 even a teen. He was killed there that night. They beat him with all
7 sorts of objects, sticks, kicking him. He lied beside me. He moaned all
8 night, but then he died and in the morning he was carried out, dead. He
9 was half Serb half Muslim. I think his mother was Muslim. He said that
10 the Green Berets would come to the Teslic. That's a Muslim army, and
11 allegedly that's why they killed him.
12 Q. Very well, sir. And one last question before I complete my
13 examination. Out of all these ordeals you went through, can you tell the
14 Judges what was the extent of the injuries that you sustained during your
15 detention?
16 A. After I was released, my mother couldn't recognise me. She was
17 standing next to me and calling my name. I was standing next to here.
18 She couldn't see me. I came out with my hair grey, salt and pepper,
19 rather. It was black before. I had to tie trousers around me so they
20 wouldn't fall down, and I didn't have a shirt because it got torn by the
21 beatings. I had a serious spinal injury. I didn't tell you about this.
22 On one night they took me to a room and they were beating me with pipes,
23 thick one-inch thick pipes, and one guy simply beat me until I lost any
24 feeling in my legs. I fell down and they kept beating, and then they
25 kicked me out of that room and all the way to where I was kept. I
Page 16681
1 couldn't move. And three or four of them were dragging me to where I
2 used to be. I didn't have any clothes on top and now have this asthma.
3 I was immobile for about 15 days, and then Piko would come and walk over
4 me and was saying, get up, get up, you can get up. They probably had
5 some plans with me. Maybe to take me together with a group that was
6 taken to Borja and killed there, but my brother heard because he was next
7 to the door something and he said, Don't get up. So I stayed. I
8 couldn't go -- to toilet. Four or five people were required to get me up
9 and then I'd pee into a can and then they put me down and after I was
10 released. On the left side of my spine I think there's some injury. I
11 still feel it. I was all black and blue, even red, yellow ... well, my
12 mother couldn't recognise me. I was standing next to her. I said, It's
13 me. And she said, No, you're not my son. I was exhausted, hungry,
14 thirsty. They were bragging, saying, Ustashas are making our people in
15 this town grazing grass and we are bringing you mineral water. But, yes,
16 they would bring mineral water but they would pee in it. And on the
17 first day you don't drink, but it was really hot so on the next day I
18 would.
19 After I was released, later on I -- when I was abroad, I went for
20 checkups and I was also told that I contracted syphilis, and I guess it
21 must have been there. Or at least traces of that. And then they used
22 antibiotics to cure me.
23 I don't know what else.
24 Q. Thank, you, sir.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
Page 16682
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And this is a convenient point for us to
2 take the break and we will resume in 20 minutes.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.
6 JUDGE HALL: While the witness is on his way back to the stand,
7 there are two matters. One is that we remind the parties that we did not
8 receive the progress report of last week on the matter of the -- the --
9 the stipulations. Counsel would recall that we expect ruling reports
10 from them to know how we proceed.
11 The second matter is that on the issue of photographs which may
12 have been produced as a result of the site visit and the -- in large
13 part, we would have heard what counsel would have had to say on this
14 matter when the issue came of a particular photograph that was shown to
15 the witness, that, bearing in mind the rule as to the conduct of site
16 visits, that the -- if photographs are to be received into evidence which
17 were only produced at that time, for the sake of compliance with the
18 practice procedurally, they should only come in as a result of an
19 application to add them in the first instance of the 65 ter list, which
20 means that the settled rules as to additions to that list would be
21 applied. And citing as an example the specific photograph in question,
22 inasmuch as it appeared to us -- it appears, I should say, to us that the
23 photograph in question is in a different form already on the 65 ter list
24 without, of course, ruling on the -- on the specific application that
25 in -- on any application to add it as a photograph that was produced at
Page 16683
1 the site visit to the 65 ter list, counsel would have to -- would have to
2 show why it should be substituted or added to a document that's already
3 on the 65 ter list.
4 So I trust that that clarifies matters and would guide counsel in
5 future. To summarize, we aren't saying -- we aren't applying an absolute
6 prohibition to matters produced during the site visit, but they could not
7 go in otherwise than through the rule dealing with additions -- other
8 than through the gateway, if I may call it that, of the 65 ter
9 application.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, if I may I pick up on that.
11 So is it the position of the Trial Chamber that all the material
12 that was gathered, the videos, the photos, the record, that will not be
13 admitted on the record; is that correct?
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes. And that was, we would have thought, well set
15 out previously in -- not only in this case but in terms of the protocols
16 developed by the Tribunal in terms of site visits.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. And a second point. In relation to
18 material of -- sorry, images of buildings that were not on the 65 ter
19 list before, so I cite to the example of the building next to the SJB
20 building. If we had no pictures in the past, I assume that category of
21 pictures Your Honours might be more willing to, in as much as it assists,
22 of course, the Trial Chamber in understanding, might be more willing
23 admit that type of -- that category of photographs.
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes. That's why we said we would not adopt a rigid
25 approach of excluding anything --
Page 16684
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
2 JUDGE HALL: -- that only was produced as a result of the site
3 visit.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. And one last thing before we
5 continue, I see that the statement that I sought to refresh to the memory
6 of the witness with is still in front of him. Perhaps we could ask the
7 usher to take it away, as he doesn't need it anymore.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Aleksic, you may begin.
11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir. My name is Aleksandar Aleksic.
14 I'm one of the Defence attorneys for Mr. Zupljanin. I have a few
15 questions for you.
16 But before that, I would like to say that I sympathize with you
17 for all your sufferings. However, we are professionals here and we have
18 to determine some facts that the parties find contentious, and I will
19 have a few questions for you in order to determine them.
20 You had several contacts with the OTP investigators. Your first
21 statement was made on the 26th of March, 1999?
22 A. Yes, most probably. I didn't write the date down, but ...
23 Q. After you gave the statement, the statement was read back to you
24 in a language you understand. You signed it, thereby confirming that
25 what's in the statement is according to the best of your recollection; is
Page 16685
1 that correct?
2 Could you please repeat your answer? The interpreters didn't
3 hear you.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Thank you. And on the 18th of October, 2000, you had another
6 opportunity to read the statement and on that occasion you made some
7 changes. Some of the changes were of typographic nature and there were
8 other changes.
9 A. I don't remember, but it's possible.
10 So I said I don't remember, but it's possible.
11 Q. And then this year, on the 28th and 29th of May, you met with my
12 learned colleague. You gave another statement about the events. And you
13 did have some changes and clarifications in relation to the first
14 statement. The procedure was the same. The statement was read out to
15 you in a language you understand, and then you signed it. Is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes. I remember that.
18 Q. During the proofing yesterday, you also had some changes to your
19 first statement. We'll come to that later. You stated that some parts
20 of this first statement of yours were not correct and you wanted to
21 verify.
22 A. Every time I was giving statement I was responding to questions
23 put to me. I did not read my previous statement every time.
24 Q. We'll come to that. And finally, do you remember having given a
25 statement in 1998, a statement you gave to Ijdin [phoen] in Tesanj?
Page 16686
1 A. Yes, I did give a statement. I don't recall which agency it was.
2 They told me it was state security, I think.
3 Q. In your previous statements and today during your testimony, you
4 mentioned the meeting that took place -- the gathering, the meeting that
5 took place in front of the police station in Teslic. You stated that
6 there were politicians present, also some members of the army, and that
7 the civilians who were there told you that a decision was reached that
8 the Teslic public security station would come under the CSB in
9 Banja Luka.
10 A. Yes, that's correct. But it was deputy commander Mato Martinovic
11 who told us that. They were at the meeting. The commander as well,
12 Sabinko Mehmedovic and the chief at the time, Drago Kuzmo.
13 There were other people. I don't know who was there from Banja Luka, but
14 I did see also one or two people in military uniforms there. I cannot
15 remember exactly how many of them there were there. Our senior officers
16 were there, and the people from Banja Luka. And also from Doboj, from
17 the CSB centre. I don't know them personally.
18 Q. Do you know that up until the arrival of Mr. Radulovic and his
19 appointment for position of the chief of SUP. So, in practical terms,
20 until July, the SJB station did not come under the CSB.
21 A. I don't know about that. I don't know who they were under. I
22 know all the senior officers were replaced with Serbs. There was only
23 one police officer but he just a police officer, regular policeman who
24 was a Muslim. Otherwise, there were no Croats or Muslims in the leading
25 structures, which means that they were removed. All the senior officers
Page 16687
1 were Serbs from that moment on.
2 Q. Today, you stated again that you were told after this meeting
3 that you should go home and that you should not come to work anymore.
4 However, in paragraph 6 of your statement -- of your 2010 statement, you
5 said that, on that day, or maybe several days later, you were asked to
6 sign a loyalty oath, and you all signed because you had no option.
7 A. That's correct. I don't know when exactly that was, but I did
8 sign it, this document of joining the force. They told us we won't be
9 touched, that we should sign that we accept the Serbian authority, and we
10 all signed it. I think we all signed it. I don't think anybody refused
11 to sign it.
12 Q. In that same paragraph, you stated that non-Serb policemen were
13 told that they would be called back to work after the takeover of power.
14 Once that was completed, they would be called back?
15 A. Yes. But those were just empty stories.
16 Q. Thank you. My colleague, Mr. Demirdjian, asked you what did you
17 do after that. Is it correct that you went to Komusina and joined a HVO
18 unit or some other unit?
19 A. Yes. Prior to that I had various contacts. I was searched.
20 People wanted to beat me. They wanted to take away from me the weapons I
21 had signed for, and then in late April I decided to go there. On my own
22 initiative.
23 Q. From what I've seen in your statements, you returned home on the
24 3rd of June, 1992.
25 A. No, on the 4th of June, in the evening hours.
Page 16688
1 Q. And you stated that the HVO unit's command post was in Komusina.
2 Could you tell us, please, what was the name of the unit, if you
3 remember?
4 A. These were the residents of Komusina. My family is from that
5 place, so they were defending the village. They weren't attacking. They
6 just deployed. There were talks amongst Serbs in Teslic that they had
7 tunnels and carrying out attacks, that they had black shirts and are very
8 dangerous. But when I came up there, I realized that they had nothing.
9 There was maybe one or two automatic rifle, otherwise it was hunting
10 rifles. They didn't have anything but that. They were poorly equipped.
11 Those were the locals.
12 Now, there were people from HVO who would come and visit Komusina
13 promising that they would send some kind of assistance, but they never
14 did. It was only the locals defending their own village. However, they
15 failed in doing that.
16 Q. You said that you took your automatic rifle there. It's not in
17 the transcript. Can just confirm that?
18 A. Yes, I took the automatic rifle and five clips of ammunition I
19 signed for.
20 Q. Now that we're discussing this topic, do you know that in other
21 villages, Muslim villages such as Stenjak, that were Muslim units
22 stationed there in this little area?
23 A. Well, no. These were no units. These were the inhabitants of
24 Stenjak and Rankovaci. They did put up some resistance, resistance that
25 lasted for about 20 minutes or an hour. There were no units there.
Page 16689
1 These were just locals. And Stenjak is close to Tesanj, so they started
2 firing only when they were fired upon.
3 Q. We'll come to that. Just a second.
4 On page 4 of your first statement, you speak about the period
5 prior to the events, and you say that foreign people would come to Tesanj
6 offering weapons to Muslims and Croats and that the weapons were bought
7 by people who were rich.
8 A. That's not Tesanj. That's Teslic. On one occasion I ways
9 present when a man came to Jozo Martinovic, Rupa, who was a carpenter,
10 offering him to buy a pistol or a rifle, and he looked at me and I gave
11 him a sign, you don't need to do that so he refused, but some people did
12 take the weapons. And when the Serbian police was set up, on that
13 occasion, this Piko person and his group came because I know I had a
14 friend who was part of that group, never mind who he was. And then they
15 came to this person and asked, give me the rifle such and such a number.
16 So it means that somebody had set up these men, that they told them who
17 they selled -- sold -- who they sold these rifles to.
18 Q. You also spoke about the period of June or somewhat earlier, that
19 the first shelling occurred of Teslic from the direction of Tesanj?
20 A. Yes, Teslic was shelled but I don't remember the date. It's been
21 18 years. And when I gave my statement, I -- or statements I only
22 answered questions and there were different questions every time.
23 Sometimes I said something that I hadn't said before.
24 Well, there was shelling anyway. And there was some makeshift
25 shells were used and some didn't explode. One flew right past me, and a
Page 16690
1 shell fell nearby but didn't explode. Those shells weren't properly
2 manufactured.
3 Q. If I understood correctly, you said that was the first shelling.
4 Now you say one shell fell and that was in September, when you left
5 Teslic, which means that there was several instances of shelling, right?
6 A. But I wasn't present. That's the only one I saw, this -- this
7 shell. That was in September. And I heard that shells did fall there,
8 and even some Muslims got killed in Teslic. Two guys. And one Serb.
9 Q. One more question about this. Do you know from which positions
10 these shells were fired?
11 A. How should I know?
12 Q. From Tesanj?
13 A. Well, probably. I know that the Croats in the HVO didn't have
14 any. They did have multiple rocket-launchers. They were in the
15 direction of Zepce but they didn't have any shells probably due to the
16 planes. No shells ever arrived there; I know that for certain.
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 16691
1 Q. And you said in your statements that you heard the shooting and
2 the shelling, but since you were in your house you couldn't see what was
3 going on in Stenjak particularly?
4 A. In Stenjak, the shooting started. I don't exactly remember when,
5 and then tanks started advancing towards Stenjak and then they routed the
6 enemy there and they all fled. But it went on for ten minutes or quarter
7 hour, not more than half an hour anyway. Tanks started moving and the
8 police and they simply overran those that were there.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. At page 63, line 16, the question
10 includes the village the witness is from, and I'm not sure if we have any
11 concerns here. I would prefer that we redact that just to be on the safe
12 side, taking into consideration everything else the witness has said so
13 far.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It identifies. Yes.
16 The name does not appear right now. There's a caret instead, but
17 eventually it will.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: And Mr. Aleksic, may I remind you of the
19 limitations of the scope of this witness's testimony. I think you are
20 just on the borderline to exceed what this witness is supposed to testify
21 about.
22 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I understood
23 correctly, the witness has been called to testify about adjudicated facts
24 500 through 503. And the village I'm asking questions about is mentioned
25 in that fact, the attack on that village.
Page 16692
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm not sure that this is entirely correct,
2 Mr. Aleksic. The witness is supposed to shed some light on the parts of
3 a couple of adjudicated facts which was redacted by the Chamber, and as
4 far as facts -- adjudicated fact number 501 is concerned, the redacted
5 part was about the involvement of the Bosnian Serb army and the police
6 and the assistance by the paramilitary groups in the search of houses.
7 And, as far as the other adjudicated fact is concerned, that is,
8 adjudicated fact number 504, it also deals with the involvement of
9 Bosnian Serb military police and regular police and reserve police and
10 paramilitary forces in the detention of civilians.
11 And then three other facts have been involved, that's 1214, 1215,
12 and 1218, and none of these facts deal with the shelling of Teslic.
13 But this was just to remind you to respect the limits of the
14 testimony of this witness.
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
16 understand.
17 Q. Sir, you said that your house is 3 and a half kilometres from
18 Teslic, and you couldn't see which forces attacked Stenjak from where you
19 were.
20 A. I couldn't see. But I heard as much from the people who were
21 watching. People watched from their apartments. Their family, their
22 friends --
23 Q. But you didn't see it personally.
24 A. No. And I don't -- my vision is not that good. And apart from
25 that, there was dust and smoke and -- so I don't know what could be seen.
Page 16693
1 Q. About your stay, on page 7 of your statement from 1999, you said
2 after Mr. Radulovic's arrival you were released from the TO building to
3 go home. And you said that the first time around you were free for 15
4 days and so you then said that you were later forced to report to the
5 Mladost school to do some work, and the guards occasionally mistreated
6 and attacked you, but you were allowed to receive food from home. We
7 were locked and set free for seven to eight days. When we were outside
8 we were hiding and we tried to provide for our family.
9 Yesterday, we were informed by the OTP that you wanted to change
10 this part.
11 A. No, I never said that.
12 Q. Just listen to me. I haven't finished yet. But that is the
13 statement that you signed in a language you understand and it was read
14 out to you confirmed and you still confirmed that it was truthful and
15 accurate to the best of your recollection. Yesterday, you said it was
16 not so, that you didn't have to go to Mladost and work there, and you
17 said that you knew people who were held at Mladost in Pribinic but that
18 you personally never went there.
19 A. Correct. I never went there. I don't know how that mistake
20 happened. I can't have said that. I was speaking about a friend of mine
21 who was also in Berlin in Germany. He was there, and I may have spoken
22 about him and it was misunderstood. But I wasn't there. I was at the
23 TO. And later they would call from me to come from home and then we went
24 to Pribinic to put out the fire because the school was on fire. I knew
25 that was Mladost but I never went there. This must be a mistake. I --
Page 16694
1 I'm -- I noticed yesterday and I said I never stated that. How it came
2 about, I really don't know. But I wasn't kept there. I had nothing to
3 do with Mladost. Some my colleagues and friends were there. I may have
4 spoken about them or perhaps it was misinterpreted. This is really the
5 truth.
6 Q. That's why I'm asking. You had at least four occasions to
7 correct that, and you only did it now, after this much time. But, okay,
8 you gave an explanation.
9 A. I never read it.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: A suggestion is being put that the witness had
11 four occasion to correct that. He gave a statement and gave a
12 supplementary statement in 2001 and that's the extent of it.
13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] The statement from 1999, the
14 correction from 2001, the statement from May this year, and yesterday's
15 opportunity. That's four occasions, but the witness has explained and
16 I'm satisfied.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I was never asked about the
18 circumstances. I would never have said something that's not true. I had
19 nothing to do with that. But there were people who were there, some
20 relatives of mine, some friends, about a dozen people I knew, and they
21 told me about it and based on what I heard from them I mentioned it and
22 somebody put it down as my statement. But that's not correct. People
23 did go through all that.
24 Q. Concerning this, you said a short while ago that you were in your
25 house, but -- after all these events. Yesterday you received a note that
Page 16695
1 you were in your house basically in -- in home arrest, and there would be
2 a police officer checking every day whether you were there.
3 Today you testified differently. That you could have been in
4 your apartment but you had reason to be afraid so you were in your house.
5 So that means you were not under house arrest.
6 A. I was. Every day, every morning somebody would come to see
7 whether I was alive. They would send my colleagues to check on me,
8 allegedly, but it -- it's clear why they came. The police had to be
9 informed that I was there all the time. So there was no moving about
10 town. No walking around.
11 Q. [No interpretation] Until the beginning of June 1992, before the
12 arrival of the Mice and all these people, what happened to you? And do
13 you agree that when Mr. Radulovic came that they were all arrested and
14 prosecuted and that order was established?
15 A. Part of that in pubs there was -- there were fights, brawls, and
16 some people wore kokades, so there were fights on ethnic ground. The
17 Mice arrived May and that's when the terror began. Among others, they
18 even mistreated their own people. I think that they only arrived to loot
19 and do whatever they felt like doing. And we were the ones who suffered
20 from it. And once they were arrested things were fine.
21 And let me explain you. Predrag Radulovic was there for a short
22 while and then arrested in Belgrade for allegedly helping Muslims and
23 Croats. And then it started all over again. The Mice were released, and
24 they went back to their old ways. Not to the same extent, but ... and
25 then they came -- that group came to my house to kill me at night --
Page 16696
1 Q. All right. We'll get there yet.
2 So you said that when he arrived the condition significantly
3 improved and that he apologised to you for what had been done to you, and
4 you said after five or six days, you were all let go home and I -- he
5 gave every one of you a sheet of paper and a pen asking you to put down
6 what happened to you all.
7 A. Yes. And people asked me what they should do because they knew I
8 was friends with him. And I said, be careful. It's better not to write
9 anything because you don't know will happen. And, indeed, whoever put a
10 complaint on paper later on disappeared and no one knows what happened to
11 them.
12 Q. All right. But for these reasons, you were formerly examined as
13 a witness -- a witness and a victim in the proceedings against Piko and
14 the others?
15 A. Where was I examined.
16 Q. In early June you gave a statement to the police?
17 A. In Tesanj I gave a statement to the state police in Sarajevo.
18 That's how they introduced themselves. Not to police, not to the court.
19 They were inspectors from state security. Our former commander said to
20 me that I should report on the following day, and then these guys came
21 from Sarajevo and questioned me.
22 Q. Do you know that proceedings were launched against Tomo
23 Mihajlovic before the cantonal court in Zenica because of all these
24 events.
25 A. Yes, I heard that.
Page 16697
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we have the year of those proceedings,
2 please.
3 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I do not have that information
4 ready but it's in my folder for the following witness. I don't believe
5 that is a contentious issue. Perhaps a bit later I can provide a
6 reference.
7 Q. One more detail. Today you spoke about how that man called Rambo
8 was beaten up. And then you said that Piko lined up the police and
9 ordered them to beat the man. And you also said whoever refused to beat
10 him was beaten by Piko and his men.
11 A. Yes. They were slapped and so on. Anyway, they were punished.
12 Also, if one of the police officers carried a rifle without a -- without
13 a strap, he would also be punished.
14 Q. You will agree with me, won't you, when I say that Pijunovic and
15 these people did whatever they wanted and that it was first and foremost
16 them who terrorised the non-Serb citizens there?
17 A. Yes, they were the ones who inflicted the most evil upon
18 everybody and caused the most problems. My house was burnt and some --
19 also some honest people were also dragged into this and made to commit
20 crimes.
21 Q. You only mentioned that Mr. Radulovic was removed from the post
22 of chief of SUP. How do you know that, and how do you know that he was
23 arrested?
24 A. Once he disappeared I realized things started moving again. The
25 worst things. And then I went to his brother's place, Nenad, who lived
Page 16698
1 close by to myself and asked him, What's with Pile, because that was his
2 nickname, and he said, Oh, my friend, they arrested him, put him in
3 Hotel Yugoslavia under house arrest. He cannot move from there. That's
4 what his brother told me.
5 Q. I have a few more questions related to your retirement.
6 You told us it was upon your request because you have met the
7 conditions prescribed by the law. Could you please tell us do you
8 know -- or maybe it would be better if we moved to private session for a
9 question or two.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 16699
11 Page 16699 redacted. Private session.
Page 16700
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.
12 A. Good day.
13 Q. My name is Slobodan Cvijetic and I'm one of the Defence team
14 members for Mr. Stanisic. I don't have any new topics. I will just ask
15 for a few clarifications related to what you'd said so far.
16 Today you told us about the appearance of those trucks that were
17 supposed to take away the archives of the Territorial Defence. Do you
18 remember discussing this?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If it's not a problem for you, could you please elaborate for the
21 Trial Chamber. I will not put any questions to, and if you omit
22 something, I'll put an extra question.
23 A. Well, I wasn't very much interested in what was going on. And I
24 wasn't in Teslic at the time, but Mojo Colic, Asim Colic, and Emko Colic,
25 these were guys who were doing all sorts of things and also Remzija
Page 16701
1 Jasarevic, Budzo, he was maybe the most vocal of them. And there was
2 also Rambo. There were these guys and some other guys. They went there
3 to prevent them from taking the archives out. Because one could see that
4 something was going on. Serbs were being armed and nobody's paying any
5 attention to us in that respect. And these people just wouldn't allow
6 them to cart that away. But all of them who were -- who took part in
7 that, were the first one who were killed. Rambo, for instance, then also
8 Budzo. Many of them. So they shouldn't have done it. Had they known
9 about it they would have gone out of Teslic and they would still be alive
10 today. And another guy -- oh, no this guy who was killed, Rambo, he was
11 at the check-point in Barici, the check-point that was set up by the
12 Muslims and Predrag Markocevic, commander during the wartime. He wasn't
13 my commander --
14 Q. That's not necessary. My question was only related to the
15 archives being transported away. So, please, stop here, and let me put
16 you a different question. It was the members of the JNA who arrived to
17 take the files of the conscripts.
18 A. It's hard to tell. There were people in civilian clothes but in
19 a military truck with JNA licence plates. I saw him, there was
20 commotion, and then they left, I think, afraid.
21 Q. And the group that prevented them from transporting the
22 documentation, according to the names, they were all Bosniaks, Muslims?
23 A. Well, there were a few Croats. A guy that was killed, I think
24 his name was Cinci from Barici, he was also killed. I don't know whether
25 it was because of that and then a waiter called Tabak. He managed to
Page 16702
1 survive because he ran to Komusina. There were a few Croats there who
2 were there, simply who found themselves in the front of the TO and they
3 just wouldn't let them remove the files. They must have known what may
4 happen in the future.
5 Q. Sir, at the time, and in the times immediately before that, or to
6 be more precise, during the times of the war in Croatia, the JNA was
7 mobilising conscripts from the area. Was that not the case?
8 A. Yes. But they would only take Serbs, as far as I know. No
9 members of other ethnicity. I know only of Salkanovic, Ibrahim, who
10 stayed within the police force, but he had to make some special kind of
11 loyalty oath. He told me about it, but I'm not sure what exactly it
12 involved.
13 Q. Did Muslim and Croat conscripts respond to call-up? In brief,
14 please.
15 A. Once we've signed the loyalty oath, we -- it meant that we
16 accepted it, but nobody called us anymore.
17 Q. This call-up for mobilisation was done on the basis of the very
18 documentation that the JNA tried to take away.
19 A. I don't know. I know that this Nenad went there, took a
20 semi-automatic rifle, uniform, a backpack, and asked him, What's all
21 that? And he said, Well, I had to sign for it. I didn't understand it.
22 Nobody called me. Nobody gave me a chance.
23 Q. Talking about the man who was at the head of this group,
24 Remzija Jasarevic, the most vocal according to you, you said he got
25 killed in the war?
Page 16703
1 A. No, no, he was killed in the camp, in Pribinic, not Pravilovic.
2 Q. I'm reading this from your statement.
3 A. No, no, no, that's a mistake.
4 Q. Give me an opportunity to put it to you. It says here that he
5 died in the war. So what's -- where's the mistake?
6 A. No. That is a mistake. I wouldn't have mentioned him had he
7 gotten killed in the war. That person did have criminal proclivities,
8 yes. He would provoke people into fighting with him, and so on.
9 Q. Why did you then tell the OTP that he got killed in the war?
10 A. I didn't say that. It must be a mistake. I wouldn't be
11 mentioning him had he got killed in the war. There were so many people
12 who got killed in the war, and I never paid attention to that. But that
13 man, he was certainly killed, murdered. That's one of the persons I
14 mentioned as murdered individuals. That must be a mistake.
15 Q. Well, let me quote it to you, and you tell me whether this is
16 correct:
17 "Remzija Jasarevic, Budzo" --
18 A. Budzo.
19 Q. "... a Muslim was the most vocal person in expressing his
20 opinion and inciting crowds."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He later got killed in the war.
23 A. That's not correct. I didn't say that.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. The copy of the statement that I
25 have here, it just says "killed during the war." I don't know if it is a
Page 16704
1 mistake in the translation. The English version here says "during."
2 I don't know if that makes a difference.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll give the ERN page number
4 that's my reference. It's the statement of 26 March 1999. The ERN
5 number is 0091-2274.
6 Q. Then tell us, sir, what you believe. What's true what you said
7 in 1999 or what you're saying now?
8 A. I'm telling now that the man was murdered. I wouldn't have
9 mentioned his name if he had been killed in the war. Many of them were
10 killed in the war, and I mentioned none of them. I mentioned him as the
11 one who was murdered. That's why. He was taken out of the camp in
12 Pribinic and murdered up there. They beat him, tortured him and later
13 killed him.
14 Q. You heard a quotation of your statement, so how do you explain
15 that the statement given to the OTP in 1999 should read this way?
16 A. I don't know. I can't have said that. My memory was still fresh
17 at the time. I can't have said that. How the mistake occurred, I don't
18 know. I know as much as you do.
19 Q. All right. Let's not dwell on this anymore.
20 You mentioned the changing of the street names, right? You said
21 that happened immediately before the war?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After the multi-party elections, there were also changes of
24 street names. Do you remember?
25 A. No. Why should anybody change that? Why should they change the
Page 16705
1 name of the Marshal Tito Street? Everybody loved him and held him in
2 high esteem. Only when the new authorities were established then there
3 were these new inscriptions, the new graffiti that nobody removed, and
4 that's how it was at that time.
5 Q. But I put it to you that the change of the street names ensued
6 immediately after the multi-party elections and that it was a process
7 that went on until the war started?
8 A. I went there often before the war. I was stopped at
9 check-points. I was searched. They were saying, We have to search every
10 time --
11 Q. Just tell me, is what I have just put to you correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You said that you had problems that you were a bit late because
14 there was that curfew. But, sir, even Serbs who didn't respect the
15 curfew had the same problems, did they?
16 A. I don't believe they did.
17 Q. But do you believe it or know it?
18 A. I know it. It happened often and I know -- I know it.
19 Q. And I put to that you the curfew applied to everybody and that
20 the Serbs who didn't respect the curfew had the same problems. Just tell
21 me yes or no.
22 A. There was a Serb colleague who was there before me and nothing
23 happened to him and when I arrived, they want to the kill me.
24 Q. All right. Thank you.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No more questions, Your Honours.
Page 16706
1 JUDGE HALL: Anything in re-examination, Mr. Demirdjian?
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 16707
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 Q. On the issue of the shelling that my learned friend was asking
5 you about from the Muslim or Croat forces, you told us that there was a
6 shell that fell but that didn't explode, and that they were not properly
7 manufactured. How frequently did you see these type of shells?
8 A. Only once. And it flew past me only a few metres away from my
9 nose and it fell in a marshy area. But I heard from people that shells
10 fell on Teslic and Banja Vrucica and that they are probably produced by
11 hand. And many of them didn't explode. Some of them fell on Teslic and
12 some people got killed. Dr. Parovic, a Serb member of the Serb Radical
13 Party lost a son, and the son of a baker, a Muslim, was -- was also
14 killed in the shelling. I don't know what happened to the craters of
15 those shells that fell on Banja. They may have -- they may have repaired
16 that. But the shells didn't hit the target. They just fell all over the
17 place [Realtime transcript read in error "police"]. And there was a
18 filter factory in Tesanj and that's where they were making them. But
19 they were short of [indiscernible] screws -- screws -- or, rather, these
20 screws and nails, and what have you, to make these shells so they didn't
21 have the appropriate material.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, there's a couple of interventions in the
23 transcript. 79, 9, I believe the witness said instead "of many of them
24 didn't explode," he said many of them were not -- were not able to hit
25 the target. That is what he said later.
Page 16708
1 And page -- line 13, "they just fell all over the place," not
2 "the police." Thank you.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: However, I remember hearing many of them didn't
4 explode and many of them didn't hit the target.
5 Q. But, sir, you may want to clarify this with my next question.
6 How frequent were these type of shellings, to your knowledge?
7 A. Rare. I heard that they were fired from Tesanj when I was no
8 longer there. But as I said, I only heard of that. I heard explosions
9 when I was there and then I heard that somebody may have got hurt. In
10 Teslic, one fell on the tarmac and pierced the tarmac but didn't explode.
11 That happened too. And that happened after I had left Teslic, I really
12 don't know. I only heard stories from others that this man was killed or
13 that man was killed and those shells even killed some Muslim, so they
14 killed their own people. I mentioned this one man but there were more.
15 Q. All right. You asked about detention at Mladost and the
16 clarification you provided us, and you told us that you didn't have to
17 report to Mladost. Did you have to report anywhere at all?
18 A. While Radulovic was there, I didn't have to. He would have even
19 come to see us up there. But he said, Don't walk around, please. But
20 only when he was replaced, I had to report daily or they would come to me
21 and to check and asked me, Where you here? Okay, stay put. And
22 sometimes here, sometimes there, but they always had to know where I was
23 so that they could find me. So I wasn't allowed to hide. They supposed
24 that I would cross over to the other side and then go berserk.
25 Q. Now, you said they would either check or you would have to
Page 16709
1 report. Where did you have to report?
2 A. The SUP, the police station. I had to report to the duty
3 officer.
4 Q. You were asked at page 68 about the Mice and the fact that they
5 came to loot, and it was suggested to you that they were doing whatever
6 they wanted. Were you able to observe their relationship with the local
7 Serb police?
8 A. Well, they seized power and they didn't report to anyone. There
9 was talk that they were Milosevic's men. So they were -- the -- the
10 authority on the ground. They could kill whoever they wanted, and
11 whoever stood up to them faired very badly. No matter whether it was
12 Serb or a Croat. But mostly it was us non-Serbs who suffered. They
13 would come up and they didn't like something or there was a curfew, and
14 then they would meet a police officer and they would snarl at him, What
15 are you doing here? And slap him on the face. And one colleague of mine
16 was even shot at when he was going home from his shift at night. On a
17 high-rise apartment building there was a machine-gun position, and
18 somebody thought he was suspicious and shot at him.
19 Q. You told us this morning that during the beating of Rambo, Kopic,
20 in front of the police station by Piko that Markocevic was standing on
21 the steps laughing. And that is what I want to ask you, what do you know
22 of the relationship between the police and the Mice group?
23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] The witness has answered the
24 question stating that they had absolute power. This is too leading.
25 This witness said he was standing there. I asked him something else.
Page 16710
1 This is really leading. And the witness has said what they were doing.
2 I don't have to read out the entire answer, I hope.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: First, the answer he gave to my first question
4 didn't answer the question. That's why I need to have an answer to this
5 question. What was the relationship between these two units, these two
6 organisations? It's a straight-forward and non-leading question.
7 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
9 Q. Sir, could you answer the question, please.
10 A. I started speaking about that man Rambo. But I was stopped by
11 counsel. He said that he would deal with that later.
12 If you're interested I can tell you.
13 This man Kopic, well, check-points had been set up, principally
14 because of Predrag Markocevic. The Muslims had a check-point at Barici.
15 If you go toward Banja Luka, you had to go through the village of Barici.
16 And the Muslims had sort of a check-point there. And Predrag Markocevic
17 was a police commander. He went to that check-point to see what it was
18 about. And then that man Rambo and some other people pointed their
19 rifles at him and sent him back, and he said, Don't you know who I am,
20 the commander. They said, We don't care. Go back. And that's why
21 Predrag stood by while he was being beaten up. And I heard that he was
22 present when he was killed in the -- on the premises of the committee,
23 because he was screaming all night and groaning. I even heard that
24 Marinko Djukic and Predrag were present when he was killed. That's what
25 I heard. So that's the reason why Predrag was laughing and was --
Page 16711
1 looking on, because they had sent him back from that check-point with him
2 at gunpoint. And the relationship between the police and the Mice was a
3 good one. I heard that the Mice were brought by Nikola Perisic, the
4 president of the municipality, Savo, the priest, and others, the
5 president of the SDS, Bogoljub Misic, they accepted the Mice. And they
6 co-operated with them, because how could they have known me? Somebody
7 must have assisted them.
8 So there were good relations between them. But they were mostly
9 taking it out on little people. Police officer comes by, doesn't carry
10 his rifle, strictly according to regulations, and then they slap him and
11 mistreat him. But, basically, they were on good terms with the
12 authorities.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Demirdjian, it's past the time when we would
14 rise for the day. How much longer do you expect would be with this
15 witness?
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let me see.
17 Your Honours, I only have two questions, so I could try to wrap
18 it up right away.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HALL: Yes, in order to release the witness today, if we
21 could move rapidly, Mr. Demirdjian.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Absolutely.
23 Q. Sir, you were asked about the trial of Tomo Mihajlovic. Did you
24 know that it was held in Zenica?
25 A. Yes. That was the story.
Page 16712
1 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber where is Zenica?
2 A. Yes. Zenica is between Sarajevo and Doboj, 70 kilometres from
3 Teslic. Actually, 100. It's 30 to Doboj, plus 70, that makes 100
4 kilometres from Teslic.
5 Q. And is it correct that Zenica is part of the BiH Federation?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Very well.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, I just have one final question for
10 you before release you, and that relates to the Mice Group. Counsels on
11 both sides have put questions to about relations between the Mice Group
12 and other groups, and my question goes to your knowledge of the relations
13 between the Mice Group and the Red Berets.
14 Are you able to shed some light on this?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's the same group.
16 But they had -- they were referred to by two names, the Mice or the Red
17 Berets. But it's one and the same.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. I have no further
19 questions.
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we thank you for your assistance to the
21 Tribunal. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I echo Mr. Aleksic's
22 expression of sympathy for what you have suffered. You are now released
23 as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home. Yes.
24 So the usher could escort the witness -- I think we have to close
25 the shades so that we take the adjournment in open court. Yes.
Page 16713
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. I wish you much
2 success in your work. And I hope we won't see each other again, unless
3 we have to.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE HALL: It has been brought to our attention that we were so
7 successful in the -- keeping the witness' identity secret that his
8 pseudonym doesn't appear on the record, so the record should be corrected
9 to reflect the pseudonym that was assigned to him. 253.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: 253, yes, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL: So we could raise the shutters.
12 We are grateful to the interpreters and the reporters for the
13 extra time that we would have spent in order to facilitate the completion
14 of this witness.
15 And we take the adjournment, to reconvene in this courtroom
16 tomorrow morning at 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of
19 November 2010, at 9.00 a.m.