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Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 98 October 23, 2010Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.
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For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussionblog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.
The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with former members of the Fellowship of Friends as well as some current members here.
To visit "Living Presence", the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship;
For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.
To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html
For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.
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To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/
- 1. WhaleRider - October 23, 2010
Seeker Beware!
The Fellowship of Friends, AKA Pathway to Presence, is a group of people who are "taught" through following a doctrine of "resisting feminine dominance" not to feel any remorse for virtually any behavior (theirs or their leader's), so long as the behavior is in the interest of feeding a hypervigilant state of "wordless presence", and the behavior conforms to their leader's warped morals and worldview.
Judging from Burton's shameless personal behavior, the essence of his high intensity/high control cult centers around the attempt to remain in a state of constant excitation associated with sexual arousal or fear.
Burton has labeled this state of arousal a "higher state" and the conforming behavior associated with maintaining his cult's status quo as the "higher self".
This is the cover for Burton's satyriasis, his sexual mania with men.
The group's meetings have strict rules of conduct and attire, and are therefore charged with a so-called, "special energy" that many find intoxicating and addictive, while behind the scenes Burton is constantly feeding his sex addiction with any male follower who will succumb to his authority and demands.
Undoubtedly, as I remember, the stimulant caffeine still plays a major scintillating role, lest any unfortunate cult member be caught nodding off during a concert or at one of Burton's freak shows and be asked to leave the cult.
Framed in this manner, why not become a shameless consumer of pornography (or worse), if it also produces a "higher state" of arousal, as apparently in GH's case?
The need for any cult leader or guru to maintain an appearance of heightened arousal (associated in his follower's minds with "enlightenment") often leads to drug abuse and other destructive addictions, as evidenced by the history of many a guru and sham evangelist like Burton.
The fault in the glossy-eyed and crystallized delusion that Burton and his followers are "evolving" is the fact that although hypervigilant, manic states may generate positive feelings and sensations, they are changing and transitory by nature; chasing these states can skew reason and lead to unhealthy, self-deprecating behavior.
The transitory nature of moods and states sets the stage for inner conflict and cognitive dissonance in the new follower's ego, who soon discovers through their limited contact with him, that although their "enlightened" guru seems to appear aroused and acts vigilant most of the time, they lack the internal and financial resources and are unable or cannot afford to sustain that state for any great length of time by themselves.
In order to compensate for this inner dissonance, the follower is incited through FOF indoctrination to project his or her insecurities onto non-members and the world at large, reinforcing the ego soothing retreat into an infantile state of dependence, hinging upon group membership and compliance with authority.
FOF cult followers believe their leader, Robert Burton, is forging their way into paradise for them…when in reality, they are just playing a role in his abusive delusional system and feeding his mania(s).
The only high part in the Fellowship's version of a so-called, "higher state", is the high cost to the individual's psyche, well-being, and pocketbook to maintain such an elusive state.
- 2. Renald - October 24, 2010
"It is not what goes into my mouth that you need to worry about, it is what comes out of it."
Anyone hear that one before?
- 4. arthur - October 24, 2010
Messenger #2,
- 5. arthur - October 24, 2010
Messenger #3,
Is that what happened to the Cannabis prohibitionists?
After they have read the "compositions" of that triad composed of Hearst, DuPont and Mellon.
Or, The Shafer Commission Report?
Vote for Proposition 19.
- 6. Golden Veil - October 24, 2010
3. brucelevy
From his link:
"The present research also offers a warning to anyone on the receiving end of an advocacy attempt. Although it is natural to assume that a persistent and enthusiastic advocate of a belief is brimming with confidence, the advocacy might in fact signal that the individual is boiling over with doubt."
That research study in Bruce Levy's link demonstrates how vulnerable "students" could be to believing the harebrained ideas of "The Teacher" Robert Burton and then fervently promoting them to others when actually they are having questions and uncertainties about the very same ideas themselves.
When another cult leader's apocalyptic predictions failed to materialize, their followers didn't have a problem…
"When the fated moment came and nothing happened, the group decided that their dedication had spared the Earth from destruction."
This is a kind of a stimulus – response effect. The more uncertain the believer becomes the more fervently they proselytize their faulty beliefs
to others in order to make themselves feel better.
Thank you for posting that Bruce. Excellent!
Buyers beware!
- 7. Golden Veil - October 24, 2010
I specifically meant:
Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence Buyers Beware!
- 8. another name - October 25, 2010
A variety is IMO Soeech is silver silence is gold.
More about cults…from Dr Phil.
4 parts BTW. The idea is the same as in the Fellowship of friends/pathway to presence and the memebers are also compromised.
Sad yet recognisable
- 9. Golden Veil - October 25, 2010
- 10. nige - October 25, 2010
"Desiderata" by Max Ehrmann
Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love,
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment,
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
- 11. paul g - October 25, 2010
Oh, thank you, Bruce, now at last I understand what cognitive disonance is. I think the whole thing is probably also a bit like Satre's idea of bad faith, but that's even more complex. I wish I understood what all that was about. I'm trying to right now. I've got loads of it.
"The Fellowship cannot hurt me more than it has already hurt me," Haven wrote in one post. "I may not be able to stop them but I'll be a huge pebble in their shoe until the end of time."
(But they like having pebbles in their shoes. Oh.
An opportunity for cognitive dissonance to shine!)
So being in the ff is like being in Satre's play 'last exit' and when the opportunity comes to leave the room, the opportunity is rejected for fear of appearing a coward. And for fear of the unknown. But those are only 'I's. And 'this too must pass'.
"Each prospective student who does not join in the next 20 years," she said, "is worth all the trouble."
- 12. nige - October 26, 2010
"Think I better leave right now" Will Young
I'm here, just like I said
Though it's breaking every rule I've ever made
My racing heart, is just the same;
Why make it strong to break it once again?
And I'd love to say "I do";
Give everything to you
But I could never now be true
So I say…
I think I better leave right now
Before I fall any deeper
I think I better leave right now
Feeling weaker and weaker
Somebody better show me how
Before I fall any deeper
I think I better leave right now
I'm here, so please explain
Why you're opening up a healing wound again
I'm a little more careful, perhaps it shows
But if I lose the highs at least I'm spared the lows
Now I tremble in your arms
What could be the harm?
To feel my spirit calm?
So I say…
I think I better leave right now
Before I fall any deeper
I think I better leave right now
Feeling weaker and weaker
Somebody better show me how
Before I fall any deeper
I think I better leave right now
I wouldn't know how to say
How good it feels seeing you today
I see you've got your smile back
Like you say – you're right on track
But you may never know why
Once bitten, twice as shy
If I'm proud, perhaps I should explain
I couldn't bear to loose you again
Yes, I will.
I think I better leave right now
Feeling weaker and weaker
Somebody better show me how
Before I fall any deeper…
I think I better leave right now
- 13. McMikey - October 27, 2010
If you can read this:
You are now leaving the Fellowship of Friends.
Resume normal behavior.
- 14. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 27, 2010
If you can read this:
It's a healthy start. Maybe you actually are trying to see yourself. Maybe you actually are trying to wake up and see what you've gotten yourself into with the Fellowship of Friends.
- 15. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 27, 2010
Or maybe not. Maybe you will just close the browser window. Back to the illusion. Insert head in sand.
- 16. WhaleRider - October 27, 2010
Young Russian man (without internet) replies to Burton:
"You want me to insert my what…where?"
- 17. WhaleRider - October 27, 2010
I had a client yesterday who expressed a great deal of sadness and anger at having "dissembled his whole life" to make a move to another state for a person who later dumped him and even wrote him out of the will. "After all I did for them!" he complained, ad nauseam.
The realization occurred to me that a person with a co-dependant personality in a desperate situation would go to dramatic lengths to diminish or even obliterate their sense of self, including changing their name and giving away their power to another person, if in doing so they received a sense of security that that other person would take care of them and pay the bills.
When it doesn't work out, the process of regaining a conscious sense of self is indeed grueling and painful…and oh sooo necessary, lest they give away their precious self awareness again.
Such is the dilemma facing cult followers, IMO.
- 18. nige - October 27, 2010
17 WhaleRider
This regaining a conscious sense of self may take many years but it is the most worthwhile task a human can undertake (as if one knew who one was, what one was doing and why one was doing it, in the true sense)…..Nigel.
- 19. Renald - October 29, 2010
18 nige I also heard once that any idea taken to an extreme turns into its opposite. That is different from that old intervals not being bridged idea but still something to consider.
- 20. nige - October 29, 2010
19 Renald
I have found that once the Self is experienced in All It can Be, it is lost if it does not Serve something Humanitarian and Worthwhile…..Nigel.
- 21. nige - October 29, 2010
20 nige
That implies that Burton has destroyed His Self by selfish and non-conscienable action…..Nigel.
- 22. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 29, 2010
nige, but that's admired in the fof. When you gain something for yourself without being concerned about the collateral damage, you're looked up to in the fof, and you get a quiet pat on the back. Hell, it's easy to lack feminine dominance and lack inner considering when you don't do anything to hurt someone.
If you keep going with your path of destruction despite all criticism, you rock. A lot of people get off on it, even this very sentence, although the exposure is no doubt a little disquieting to whatever sociopath may be reading this.
It's the way of the sly man. Cleverness is admired. But "clever about what?" is the question. There is not always benevolent intent when a person is SLY. From the Merriam-Webster definition:
"clever in concealing one's aims or ends: lacking in straightforwardness and candor : dissembling (to hide under false appearance)"
"in a manner intended to avoid notice"
- 23. nige - October 29, 2010
I am not sure we are talking parallel-wise or contrari-wise. I never really got, in the FOF, to a position of taking advantage of others With My Self. I was VERY NAIVE and QUITE FEARFUL and my vanity was more in a 'LIFE' sense with my artistic creations. Perhaps you could explain more from your angle…..I FEEL THIS IS AN IMPORTANT AREA THAT PRESENT MEMBERS WOULD DO WELL TO CONSIDER WHEN "SERVING THE SCHOOL"…..Nigel.
- 24. another name - October 29, 2010
Dear Nigel and others
There are chiefs and indians, victims and perpetrators. They go together as day and night.
Much happened subconcious and is still an area were some ex students try to shed light on. For sure me.
Why did we join….why did we get into a cult, like 4.000.000 other in the US, in 3000 cults in the US.
Why and how do we heal…step by step?
Not with the mind…heart and soul and spirit and body…
- 25. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 29, 2010
"Perhaps you could explain more from your angle."
I probably can't. But I can try. I'm talking parallel-wise I think, to answer your question.
When we have a sense of "Self", as obvious and simplistic as this may sound, it just means we aren't connecting to our Self THROUGH OTHERS AND THROUGH THEIR PERCEPTIONS ABOUT US.
A cult promotes a sense of Self built upon reputation and the opinions of others within the cult. So to stay in the cult, it's a prerequisite that we learn to manage the perceptions of others about us.
Some people are much better at this than others. But to do it, a person disconnects from what some people call their *source*, and perception management becomes the priority. People sometimes get to the point where their behavior toward others is no longer even a question: The only question is what people *perceive* about their behavior toward others.
Burton may have a destroyed Self, as you suggest, whatever destroyed Self might mean. It's just hard to fathom the extent to which he does not care. What he cares about is that a certain number of people actually believe he has an Enlightened Self. To him, that Perception is all that matters. You think WE have trouble with our sense of Self when we leave the FOF. Wow, that's nothing. Imagine what it would be like for Burton and others like him in the FOF. Without the FOF, their sense of self would evaporate. Of course they would immediately look for other marks.
- 26. nige - October 30, 2010
SOURCE – sounds a better way of saying what you and I both mean. Spot on with the post – thanks…..Nigel.
- 27. nige - October 30, 2010
I was thinking today about SOURCE and what Gurdjieff said – "The Self, Real 'I' or Master is Essence grown up". Then, suddenly, the idea of Permanence and Impermanence – we come upon this Earth and try to make sense of Our Being Here. We apply our intellectual and emotional efforts to attempt to Become Ourselves – in whatever sphere we may find ourselves.
Just three days ago, I adopted a little West Highland Terrier, called 'Ferdie'. He responds so well to human affection, even though he has been reared as a show/stud dog and all the time kept in kennels. He is seven years old and will probably reach his demise before I do. But yet I have to care for him and train him and – YES – show love to him.
Robert Earl Burton is BUFFERING his existence by his interfering with young men in an orgiastic and degenerative manner. Maybe he truly believes he is a Goddess in a Man's Body but will be 'caught short' when the time comes to 'lose his temporal body'.
I feel I have found the TASK FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE in my teaching and working in precious metals. 'Courtesy and Passion' (W B Yeats – "The People") is the way in which I would wish to be remembered as a Master in My Trade
- 28. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 31, 2010
It's good to hear you've found your calling, N. That is huge. It sounds like you've built something beautiful in your life.
There are wondrous things calling to us throughout our lives, even in old age. It's just a matter of removing the ear muffs.
- 29. nige - October 31, 2010
I state it to my friends and mental-health carers that "I have become aligned with my Fate". I feel if people can come to that point of existence there is so much JOY IN LIFE AND WORK that one can meet so many obstacles with a Quiet Resolution. As Whitman put it – "I carry my delicious burdens, I carry men and women wherever I go".
I am certain that the Fellowship of Friends offers little in the way of the Abundance of Life that all spiritual disciplines talk about. It is all FORM, POSE and a GRINDING, WINDING DOWN TO DEATH. Burton, who has hurt many people to the point of Despair and Beyond, has a great deal to answer to.
- 30. nige - October 31, 2010
"To be with laughing, breathing flesh is enough…" Walt Whitman
She came from Greece, she had a thirst for knowledge
She studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College
That's where I caught her eye
She told me that her Dad was loaded
I said "In that case I'll have rum and coca-cola
She said "fine"
And then in 30 seconds time she said
"I want to live like common people
I want to do whatever common people do
I want to sleep with common people
I want to sleep with common people like you"
Well what else could I do?
I said "I'll see what I can do"
I took her to a supermarket
I don't know why
but I had to start it somewhere
so it started there
I said "pretend you've got no money"
but she just laughed
and said "oh you're so funny"
I said "Yeah
Well I can't see anyone else smiling in here
Are you sure
you want to live like common people
you want to see whatever common people see
you want to sleep with common people
you want to sleep with common people like me?"
But she didn't understand
she just smiled and held my hand
Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
'cos when you're laid in bed at night
watching roaches climb the wall
if you called your dad he could stop it all
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
and then dance and drink and screw
because there's nothing else to do
Sing along with the common people
Sing along and it might just get you through
Laugh along with the common people
Laugh along although they're laughing at you
and the stupid things that you do
because you think that poor is cool
Like a dog lying in a corner
they will bite you and never warn you
Look out
they'll tear your insides out
'cos everybody hates a tourist
especially one who thinks
it's all such a laugh
yeah and the chip stain's grease
will come out in the bath
You will never understand
how it feels to live your life
with no meaning or control
and with nowhere else to go
You are amazed that they exist
and they burn so bright
whilst you can only wonder why
Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
'cause when you're laid in bed at night
watching roaches climb the wall
if you called your dad he could stop it all
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
and then dance and drink and screw
'because there's nothing else to do
I want to live with common people like you…..
- 31. nige - October 31, 2010
Words and music by brian may
There's no time for us
There's no place for us
What is this thing that builds our dreams yet slips away
From us
Who wants to live forever
Who wants to live forever….?
There's no chance for us
Its all decided for us
This world has only one sweet moment set aside for us
Who wants to live forever
Who wants to live forever?
Who dares to love forever?
When love must die
But touch my tears with your lips
Touch my world with your fingertips
And we can have forever
And we can love forever
Forever is our today
Who wants to live forever
Who wants to live forever?
Forever is our today
Who waits forever anyway?
- 32. nige - October 31, 2010
"How We Love", by Beth Nielsen Chapman
Life has taught me this
Everyday is new
And if everything is true
All that matters when we're through is how we love
Faced with what we lack
Some things fall apart
But from the ashes new dreams start
All that matters to the heart is how we love
How we love, how we love
With the smallest act of kindness
In a word, a smile, a touch
In spite of our mistakes
Chances come again
If we lose or if we win
All that matters in the end is how we love
How we love, how we love
I will not forget your kindness
When I needed it so much
Sometimes we forget
Trying to be so strong
In this world of right and wrong
All that matters when we're gone
All that mattered all along
All we have that carries on… is how we love
- 33. silentpurr - October 31, 2010
In addition to the subjugation of Conscience, the creative-self is under constant scrutiny and control. In the Fellowship, creativity is merely an extension of Robert's grasp. One's own sense of expression is always directed by and channeled through Robert's 'so-called vision'. If you are lucky, you may learn some skills and even exercise them in the FOF. But mainly you and your creativity are regarded as merely a tint of a color of a substance to be used or unused and then scraped off the Royal Palette.
While living at then Renaissance and sketching daily, I asked Robert if we couldn't please have a model to draw. The group he selected was made up all men including Tomas E—–, most of whom had never drawn from life before. He then asked me to BE the model and pose nude, which I did do with reluctance and disappointment….
- 34. Golden Veil - October 31, 2010
Surprising that he wanted drawings of a woman, isn't it? Sad that your creativity was suppressed.
- 35. McMikey - November 1, 2010
Subjugation first, awakening later or not at all.
"Maybe next lifetime, Goodness."
That live model request sure backfired, didn't it?
Think of it as being elected prom-queen.
I'll bet the boys weren't so disappointed.
- 36. WhaleRider - November 1, 2010
Fellowship Redefines "Mean"
Oddfellow House (YUBA COUNTY)-Elaborate and extravagant celebrations are underway today at the Northern Californian headquarters for the quasi-religious multinational corporation known as the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. (AKA Pathway to Presence) for the sub-standard, semi-completion of the latest of their seemingly endless frenzy of public works projects.
Over the course of nearly forty years and under the direction of CEO and founding pedophile Robert E. Burton, the cult has now officially removed the middle of the road on all its property.
There are now only two roads in the group: one narrow, winding, long road leading toward Burton and one leading away from him, as fast as you can.
Local authorities have been pushing the Fellowship for discussions about equalizing the speed limits on both roads, since once one sees the truth about Burton, the rate at which one leaves is all most three times the allowed rate it took to get to see the person behind the mask, but balanced, open debate is forbidden in their religion.
Jargon Taxhaven, overrated man number 5ish and ever-present wallpaper for the Fellowship, explains that, "for many years we believed as the Greeks believed, that there were three ingredients to beauty: symmetry, proportion, and harmony", and Burton "talked a lot about how to the Greek mentality, the golden mean was an attribute of beauty. But our leader has taken us way beyond that now. Do you follow what I am saying? Here's the door if you don't."
A tour of the Fellowship's property, where Burton lives and holds court, reveals a truly grotesque and disharmonious array of asymmetrical building styles, dis-proportioned spurting palm trees and giant gay lawn statues, a myriad of reflecting pools that divert valuable water resources, and transplanted camels inharmoniously marauding with the gophers and gopher snakes who pursue them in a decaying, dry, and dusty vineyard that once held some promise.
The whole Fellowship picture is certainly not pretty, say many critics.
In fact, according to court documents, as the leader of the group, the elderly Burton uses his position of authority to carry on distinctly asymmetrical, imbalanced, and messy intimate relationships with his young male followers, and according to his religion, males in his exclusively male inner circle have a dis-proportionally greater chance of attaining enlightenment than women in his group do.
Five minutes into an overly scripted presentation of Burton's bizarrely skewed sophistry reveals his followers appear to have abandoned all reason as well as sense of beauty at the gatehouse as well.
- 37. nige - November 1, 2010
1 November, All Souls Day, first day of Week 44….
20th Anniversary of my Awakening as a Man Number 5
- 38. Ames Gilbert - November 1, 2010
Some time in 1979 I wanted to do something a little more creative than endless cleaning of antiques, and got myself invited to one of the life drawing classes at the studio in the Whitman Glen.
The model was not Silentpurr. This particular young lady usually worked in the laundry room, and it seemed to me that she did not want the job. She was very good as a model, and found us a good pose, and held it with iron discipline. She had an interesting face and a beautiful, healthy body. So what could go wrong?
She was crying for almost the whole time. No one mentioned it, the artists went to their work studiously ignoring her distress, and I aligned myself with them. At one point, the leader called for a quite a long series of quick poses where one had just a minute to catch the quality of the moment before moving on to another. And all the while she cried.
I gave up and did not have the heart to continue, and I did go to any more sessions. The whole episode was deeply disturbing to me. I later found out that the model was an artist, as was Silentpurr, but instead found herself being made into the regular model for many months.
- 39. silentpurr - November 2, 2010
There are at least 3 'great' lies that were perpetrated onto unsuspecting students of Robert Burton.
– that RB became 'conscious' by 'doing' everything his teacher, Alex Horn,suggested him to do.
– that Robert himself is celibate.
– that The Fellowship/Robert are beyond the use/discussion of drugs.
- 40. paul g - November 2, 2010
thank you for that, Ames. I don't feel somehow I have read anything so moving and terrible as that story.
- 41. Golden Veil - November 2, 2010
I agree ~ that is a terrible story. How very sad that no one asked the model if she needed to rest or stop for the day. Maybe she was mourning the lost opportunity to draw, or maybe a loved one had died and she was grieving…
- 42. WhaleRider - November 2, 2010
nige #37:
Happy Anniversary! Keep up the good work. Hope you did something special for yourself or others that day.
Cheers, mate.
- 43. nige - November 2, 2010
42 WhaleRider
Spent the day teaching among the lady students. So enriching…..
"Violently, you came to me, said I could be a different man; violently, your words hit me, and now gently, I grow into your hand" Hue and Cry, "Remote"
42 My two Guardian Angels – Shakespeare and Whitman
The Real Work is True…..Nigel
- 44. WonderingWhosWatching - November 3, 2010
Don't loose the Vision!
I came upon a child of God
He was walking along the road
And I asked him where are you going
And this he told me
I'm going on down to Yasgur's farm *
I'm going to join in a rock 'n' roll band
I'm going to camp out on the land
I'm going to try an' get my soul free
We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
Then can I walk beside you
I have come here to lose the smog
And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe it's the time of man
I don't know who I am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
By the time we got to Woodstock
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration
And I dreamed I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
Above our nation
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves
back to the garden
by Joni Mitchell
- 45. WhaleRider - November 3, 2010
Any other men (or women) number 5 out there besides Nigel doing the real work of quoting their personal guardian angels every chance you get and feeling enriched by the company of members of the opposite sex and others whom look up to you and have placed their trust in you?
- 46. paul g - November 4, 2010
more than you can shake a codpiece at.
- 47. McMikey - November 4, 2010
Speaking of license plates:
I saw one the other day:
The late model luxury car also had a Dead-head sticker.
I wonder what it means?
- 48. WhaleRider - November 4, 2010
It means you were following too close.
- 49. silentpurr - November 4, 2010
It means that REB speaks with 4Qed tongue and that Satan's 4Q awaits him.
- 50. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 5, 2010
Yes or maybe it means it was an Audi Q4 being driven by someone named Rebecca. I don't know about Satan's fork, but Burton probably likes the kinky sound of that.
I saw a license plate a few years ago that provided a clear shock from higher forces that I need to stop being so superstitious and delusional about license plates and 44s.
- 51. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 5, 2010
had a little vision today. not that kind of vision. just a vision.
I saw some people I had given up on shining bright… friendships reignited, reinvigorated. what I thought was hopeless and stuck in quicksand forever, instead is buoyed by unbridled love and the passage of time. Just like us, seeing something for the first time. reconciliation. new beginning. who knows. maybe.
- 52. McMikey - November 5, 2010
Close, but no cigar.
(Didn't Monica confess to something like that with Bill C.?)
4 Q pronounced Fork U.
Remember Bullwinkle's Alma Mater?
Whatsa Matter U.
- 54. Renald - November 6, 2010
A friend in need is a friend indeed.
I recently received some much needed assistance from some FOF students even though I have been out for over eight years. I am very grateful.
Where there is love, anything is possible…..and I had thought I would be rebuffed. Little did I know. Today I am a little more humble.
Thank you so much guys. Your efforts proved successful and this will never be forgotten.
Cheers !!!!
- 55. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 6, 2010
Renald, that's nice, thanks for the positive commentary. I have a lot of positive memories of my friends in the FOF. Most of them have left the cult, and some remain. Here's the question…
Will your friendships survive if you ever dare to point out the similarities to the following? If they answer is yes, then I doubt they'll remain for long…
- 56. Renald - November 7, 2010
I can only speak about my friendship, loving energy which flows from me to them. How they feel about me regardless of any such conditions is beyond my control. Normally I would have expected to be shunned. Now I don`t know about that any more and it does not concern me and my flow. There is always the possibility that each and every one of them will one day decide that it is time to leave as well as the possibility that each of them may never leave and be buried in the same place I had always thought I would end up in.
That men and/or women are selfishly conned into having sex from my point of view is a very common experience which takes place somewhere on this planet probably every minute of every day. Never is it ever a good thing compared to healthy sexual relationships. Hopefully people learn from their bad experiences and create a better life for themselves. Sick people are just that. Addicted people are just that. The snowball which rolls down the mountainside suddenly finds itself turned into a full blown avalanche. It happens in life much in the same way. I doubt that RB or anyone else in the same position ever planned it that way in the beginning, and soon it was too late to stop or change. Survival or death are the only choices.
From the outside all we can do is to post signs along the side of those mountains warning the unsuspecting wanderer that a danger exists.
I will not go any further since nobody asked me to and I do not want to cause any more waves where they are not asked for. Cheers!!
- 57. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 7, 2010
Just sounds like the same old thing. Wonderful friendships, dinners, hugging, poetry, kisses on the lips, and good cheer on the holiday — as long you don't say anything to offend.
One of the reasons people don't cause waves, as you describe it, is the fear that they will lose their friendships, or lose a comfortable lifestyle with certain social and (in some cases) financial benefits.
Part of warning from the outside, again as you describe it, is warning people that silence is the prerequisite for any type of frienship.
- 58. silentpurr - November 7, 2010
– students who have 'persevered' through the years are probably conditioned to, and desensitized to the leap-of-fantasy required. It's like enduring the madness of a family member, which for many, he is.
- 59. paul g - November 7, 2010
56 Xavier
'Survival or death are the only choices.'
No. What do you mean? That makes no sense at all.
I suppose you can choose a living death in compliance or a survival of which you can not imagine the shape of. That's what you say in 58 isn't it? What keeps it all stuck together in my opinion is Philia, the love of ones fellows. And the fear of losing that love, a commandment of daddy.
Sick Daddy. Put your toys away,
lie down and
go to sleep now.
Let the children find themselves
Free of your anxieties.
- 60. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 8, 2010
paul g., I never said that. I think you're addressing Renald 56 with that one.. I'm not sure who you're addressing in 58.
- 61. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 8, 2010
But definitely I agree with you that this is what holds it all together.
Renald's story, although it may have a silver lining in there somewhere, instead brings us to the reason that everyone works in the FOF: Silence and complicity in exchange for membership in the support group. It's a simple if-then formula. If you are not silent, you have no friendship, no membership, and you are gone, end of story.
Here's that same link from O. (no, not that O.) :
- 62. Renald - November 8, 2010
"From the outside all we can do is to post signs along the side of those mountains warning the unsuspecting wanderer that a danger exists.
I will not go any further since nobody asked me to and I do not want to cause any more waves where they are not asked for. Cheers!!"
Re. 57. Xavier Stewart Dent –
When I said that I didn`t want to cause waves I meant that I did not want to go into more details regarding my personal beliefs because they are just that, personal. I am sure that this would then lead to subjects that don`t belong on this blog. As well the reason that I had to circumvent somewhat my "story" is that I know very well that if some of the enablers got wind that fellow members helped an ex-student, it could lead to suffering which I believe is totally unnecessary(in real life terms). I don`t disagree however with what you said, it just is misplaced in the context of my post. All is well, cheers!!
- 63. Renald - November 8, 2010
re. 59. paul g – November 7, 2010
56 Xavier
'Survival or death are the only choices.'
No. What do you mean? That makes no sense at all."
When I said "Survival of death are the only choices." I was referring to the point of view of the perp, a sick individual caught up in the sticky web of an addiction in the same illustrative way of the snowball which has become part of an avalanche thundering down the mountainside. There is no escape visible, not that one does not exist when looked at from the outside. So a person in that situation, whether or not any conscience is extant, will still have built in the dilemma of either surviving in the world in the same way as in the past, in a life of lies and manipulation, or to simply commit suicide and end it all once and for all. The deep difficult middle way cannot be achieved by this type of individual and to some extent it is the same for all of the followers of these individuals if they have any.
The truth that they cannot envision and would not want to envision is that there is a spin-off factor which exists on the periferies. From those locations one can experience the wide open air, freedom, and let go of the group. Sure the snow can still stick to the escapee`s body and clothing but it is a far better place to be than thundering down towards an inevitable crash.
My experience can be described just that way. A certain number of factors existed which caused me to attract what I got, my past caused my future. It was not that I was smarter. It was not that I was luckier. I can still remember what it was like while I was in. I can still feel compassion without feeling the need to force them into a rescue that they do not ask for. That certainly is futile and likely would make matters worse. That in my post at the beginning of this subject I was expressing my gratitude is simply something that I wished to express because that was and is how I felt and feel,nothing else. Later the discussion drifted to expressing how it feels to be in the grips of sickness, disease, and how I understand it from a larger and more distant perspective. I have found that people in general do not have any idea of what it is like to actually see the total mechanicalness of it. They think that we are in total control and I think we are not. Maybe that is where G. and O. started from and later forgot. So they should burn in hell? Just for one moment imagine that we are one, like an acting troupe putting on a play. My seven year old daughter knows how to do this when she is playing. Grow up? That is fine but what is up and what is down? Cheers!!
- 64. Renald - November 8, 2010
re above, damn! "When I said "Survival of death are the only choices." it should have read survival OR death. Sorry!
- 65. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 8, 2010
Renald: "I can still feel compassion without feeling the need to force them into a rescue that they do not ask for. That certainly is futile and likely would make matters worse. That in my post at the beginning of this subject I was expressing my gratitude is simply something that I wished to express because that was and is how I felt and feel,nothing else."
Compassion is good, and what I'm referring to has nothing to do with "rescuing" anyone. Plus, I'm definitely not expecting you to do anything differently than what you're doing. What I'm referring to is the tacit agreement that's necessary to maintain friendships and acquaintances in the Fellowship of Friends. What your situation is specifically, I don't know, but something about it does remind me of the status quo within this cult. Here's the agreement, always left unstated but palpable nonetheless: "If you don't talk to me about these uncomfortable topics, I'll consider being your friend and may continue to associate with you. But if you occasionally bring up uncomfortable topics about Burton, or express your attitude about him in any way, you will make me uncomfortable, and I will stop associating with you. If you are a member of the Fellowship of Friends, you will eventually be confronted for your lack of valuation or your negative attitude, and you *will* be asked to leave."
So, to remain in the Fellowship, or to maintain friendships, business relationships, or acquaintances within this cult, we stay away from those topics. It's THE force that keeps it all working.
- 66. Renald - November 8, 2010
Re. 65. Xavier Stewart Dent – November 8, 2010
I agree with what you said in the above except the final phrase.
In what way does that not apply to criticism or negative talk about the Pope, the Jehovah Witnesses followers, the other`s political affiliation, their choice of whatever other affiliation they may feel strongly about and so on? I personally will stop inviting people over if they are predictably negative. Oh!, I get it. Might there be a double standard here? It is commendable to mind my own business when it comes to the other person`s choices except when it has to do with outfits like the fof. My point of view is that organizations like the fof are actually made stronger through adversity in the same way that advertisements on tv increase sales. I am aware that this negates your final phrase, " It's THE force that keeps it all working." Here we differ. It is my opinion and I respect yours which is more than I can say regarding members of for example political parties. Cheers !!
- 67. Renald - November 8, 2010
Taking ideas to extremes causes them to convert into their own opposities. Could that not apply to the other guys` side as well? Might the heavy drinker possibly not have a better chance to see the error of his ways when his friends` behaviors are of a positive bent rather than a negative energy? I think so and again that works for both sides of an issue. Has it not been stated in this blog time and time again that fear of being abandoned, of being suddenly alone, right or wrong, is one of the major factors which helps to keep the fence sitters in, sometimes? There are many who have chosen to stay in Oregon House for a great variety of reasons after leaving the fof but one of those reasons is to be there for their friends after they decide to leave. In my opinion again I find this choice heroic and I would consider doing the same if it were possible. I also thank these people for their efforts. Cheers!!
- 68. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 8, 2010
"In what way does that not apply to criticism or negative talk about the Pope, the Jehovah Witnesses followers, the other`s political affiliation, their choice of whatever other affiliation they may feel strongly about and so on?"
I never said it doesn't apply. In fact, that's why I made the comparison to the 200 men who came forward on Oprah to tell their stories. I find such parallels enlightening and very helpful in understanding more about Burton, his enablers in the FOF, and the people who remain silent about it, and the people who are in denial: http://www.oprah.com/showinfo/A-Two-Day-Oprah-Show-Event-200-Men-Who-Were-Molested-Come-Forward_1
There's no doubt that some amount of positive and supportive energy is helpful to those who suffer from addictions. Few people can heal and face their addiction without some type of support from at least a few close friends and family, so if that's what you are doing Renald I applaud that. However, the bigger problem by far is that people generally are afraid to say anything, especially when numerous people suffer from the same addiction or dependency. They simply reinforce that dependency with their silence. Out of fear, families and friends don't want to upset anyone or experience anything potentially uncomfortable or confrontational, and particularly if they suffer from the same addiction. If things could be different they would be, so I don't expect something to change anytime soon, but at the same time I think there's some value in highlighting the dynamics at work and not ignore those dynamics.
- 69. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 8, 2010
I realize it's tricky Renald, so I do understand, and I wish you well.
Changing the subject a bit, there are numerous helpful links and resources on that Oprah site:
"Sexual Abuse Survivors' First Steps Toward Healing"
By Howard R. Fradkin, PhD, LICDC
The Oprah Winfrey Show | November 05, 2010
Some excerpts:
First Steps for a Man Who's Ready to Talk About His Abuse:
* Give yourself a big round of applause daily. It takes a lot of courage to do this, and one step at a time, you absolutely can heal and recover.
* Find somebody to talk to who's safe. That may mean calling a therapist, mental health center or local psychological association. There are many types of trained therapists: psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, mental health, family, marital and pastoral counselors, as well as trained body workers and self-defense experts who can help. You can go online to find organizations that list therapists who are helpful. Be patient. You deserve to find a therapist who has been trained to work with male survivors. Having experience with women survivors helps, however, men do have unique needs. Some of you may feel safer talking to a male therapist, while others will definitely prefer a woman. What is important is finding a therapist who has the skills and the compassion to help you. If a therapist tells you, "That is the past, let go and focus on the present, as that is all you can change," find a new therapist.
* Attend support groups. The Internet is filled with lots of resources, chat rooms and bulletin boards where you can go and talk to other men and just listen to other men share their stories. This is important because men need a community in order to heal. Remember it's fine to just listen at first and only share a little at a time as you are ready. You will feel safer this way, and your safety is very important as you start and continue to recover.
* Know you're not alone. Know there are other men out there who understand. You're not isolated. There are other people who are going to understand. Remember the 200 men who stood in the Oprah Show audience holding up their childhood pictures on November 5, 2010.
* Take your time. Talking about your abuse is a process, and it's really important that you be very gentle with yourself. Take your time and know this is not a race. We can take our time. We can be compassionate with ourselves. We can learn to be loyal to functionality and disloyal to dysfunction, which means men really have to examine the messages that got planted in their heads by their perpetrators and by usually well-meaning families. Messages like: "You should keep it to yourself. You have to be strong and powerful. You will hurt others if you tell." You can learn to give yourself permission to be vulnerable.
- 70. paul g - November 9, 2010
ah, Renald, sorry, something weird's happened to this forum on my computer and it's a bit more difficult to read now…
- 71. Renald - November 9, 2010
Paul G. Yes I am experiencing difficulties with the blog`s system especially when I make corrections to my post. It makes it near impossible to go back and edit. Also I have had in the past problems with my personal computer as regards the quality of print. I managed to come across a way to rectify it but now I don`t remember what that was. Maybe someone (I know of at least one techie who reads this blog) can give the explanation or guidelines for a fix. Also if I sleep on it, as they say, I may find tomorrow that the memory has come back. Cheers!!
- 72. WonderingWhosWatching - November 9, 2010
Try writing in a text editing program, on-line or offline, then copying and pasting into the blog's message window. Then go on-line again, if you have been off-line, and hit the 'say it' button.
Most PC's have the very simple 'Notepad' program to create text. It is often found under
'Accesories' after clicking 'All Programs' from the 'Start' button.
Does that help?
- 73. Renald - November 9, 2010
Thanks Wondering. I had not thought of that.
- 74. Robert Earl Burton - November 10, 2010
I sorry I Loves you
- 75. silentpurr - November 10, 2010
yeah, we sorry too
- 76. McMikey - November 10, 2010
Or, not as sorry as you're going to be.
It's the Law:
You must experience the opposites.
- 77. WhaleRider - November 10, 2010
Stalled Fellow Ship Cruises Again
SEA OF LIES AND CORRUPTION – The pleasure and paradise seekers of the Fellow Ship of Friends Carnival Splendor (also known as Pathway to Presence) are cruising again for recruits— but just barely.
In a sickening scenario likely none of its 1,500 or so hanger-ons and followers imagined they'd find themselves in when they joined the cult on their jaunt into the world of spirits hovering above the dining table up in the Northern Californian River Area, now the entire emotionally and intellectually disabled pleasure and paradise cruise is being towed further off course to southern extremes by the lust and greed of its sex-crazed captain, Robert E. Burton.
Instead of the lavish sea-influence buffet they expected, followers are subsisting on B-rated Spam, which is a man-made fabrication consisting mainly of regurgitated quotes all mushed together with other pithy sayings, all carved from the annals of the long dead.
Young male followers shackled aboard the Fellow Ship are likely to find themselves on Burton's daily menu of semen as well.
A firestorm of information made public on the Internet over the past few years about Burton's personal excesses and indiscretions has stalled the headway of the Fellow Ship's recruiting efforts, cut Burton's charisma, power and bottom line, poisoned the would-be victim pool in North America and Europe, and has tarnished the Carnival Splendor of the Fellow Ship, which has defrauded over 10,000 paying customers over its nearly 30 years of sleazy self-service.
Reportedly, young male passengers lured into Burton's Fellow Ship are provided with plenty of water, wine, food, second hand clothing, and Viagra, and are being entertained and entranced with antiquated music, fourth way trivia contests, mind games, bedroom shuffle board, and even a scavenger hunt for Burton's soiled pink frilly underwear, which seems to be scattered all over the place.
"We are now taking our entire dog and camel show to Latin America where I can get more banging for your bucks," announced an unapologetic Burton in his yearly address to his silenced shareholders who continue to enable him. "People down there are poorer, very superstitious, and have plenty of spurting palm trees already but don't have the Internet."
- 78. nige - November 10, 2010
On a more serious note and harking back half a page or so, I have been thinking about the idea of FRIENDSHIP, as we experienced it in the FOF and as we may have experienced it as we have left the cult and found new stability. Friendship in the FOF was always within constraints of conditions and requirements – computer programmers made friends with computer programmers (finding world-wide jobs for one another 'to support the school') and corporate headhunters made pacts with those within their work area. Folks at The Property played feature against feature and most were trying hard to 'play the FOF game' rather than doing more necessary 'inner work'. I wonder how many of us who have left the cult have found Real Friendships, based upon mutual understandings of Life and supporting one another goals and aspirations?…..Nigel.
- 79. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 10, 2010
Quick answer to your question (78): Everyone, without one exception.
What you wrote about friendships in the fof reminds me of that "intentional insincerity" garbage. Maybe people should just try "sincerity" on for size first. The *insincerity* thing seems to come a little too naturally for some.
Silentpurr — (75) that literally made me laugh out loud.
- 80. Renald - November 11, 2010
re 78 Nige "On a more serious note and harking back half a page or so, I have been thinking about the idea of FRIENDSHIP, as we experienced it in the FOF". It seems that you used the word WE when it should have read I. You are in no way qualified to speak for me and my friendships from my time in the fof. Heck I am barely qualified to speak for my own friendships other than the part of them stemming from my own self. I cannot really even speak for the experience of those friends. Furthermore friendships have been known to alter with time, past, present and future.
- 81. Renald - November 11, 2010
re. 79. Xavier Stewart Dent – November 10, 2010
You also must have a different idea of what friendship is. In absolutely no way did I ever in my time in the fof fake a friendship, not that I think this is even possible, not for me anyways.
Any of my fof friends are welcome to spend time with me at my home any time they so wish. As well I would be very happy to visit them and continue where we left off if it ever becomes possible. It is kind of an unconditional arrangement as far as I am concerned. Cheers!!
- 82. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 11, 2010
Renald, give it a break, would you?! Enjoy your friendships, and feel good about them! I'm not talking about you per se, or asking you to do anything or say anything differently. I've already told you I realize it's tricky, and I wouldn't expect you to address any uncomfortable topics with people, not if you want to keep your friendships. Have fun! Go, be, and enjoy!
- 83. paul g - November 11, 2010
I hate this kind of thing, but must balance up my opposites.
I've thrown away my toys
Even my drum and train.
I wanna make some noise
With real live aeroplanes.
Some day I'm going to fly.
I'll be a pilot too.
And when I do, how would you
Like to be my crew…
On the good ship lollipop.
Its a sweet trip to a candy shop
Where bon-bons play
On the sunny beach of Peppermint Bay.
Lemonade stands everywhere.
Crackerjack bands fill the air.
And there you are
Happy landing on a chocolate bar.
See the sugar bowl do the tootsie roll
With the big bad devils food cake.
If you eat too much ooh ooh
You'll awake with a tummy ache.
On the good ship lollipop
Its a night trip into bed you hop
And dream away
On the good ship lollipop.
- 84. silentpurr - November 12, 2010
- 85. another name - November 12, 2010
4 Million People who are in cult in the USA in 3000 cults.
To understand more about molesting and what the pattern is in the abuse, see Oprah interviewing 4 molesters.
Interesting is how 2 of the molesters were molested themselves as a child. The other two said no, although when it is very early in their childhood they might not remember?
Interesting observations:
The grooming looks at lot like Robert does.
The fact that Robert himself was abused as a child.
Children who do not get enough love and or attention or being neglected have more changes to become victims.
The perpetrators know their victims. It is rarely a stranger who abuses. It is a friend, family member, neighbor.
Marshall Rosenberg state: "Sex offenders have developed unsuccessful strategies when abusing their victims." Their strategy is related to subconscious trying to get empathy?
Not for the faint of heart.
- 86. another name - November 12, 2010
This is part 2 of 3
- 87. McMikey - November 12, 2010
Positively 4th Street – by Bob Dylan
(Ironic title, don't you think?)
You've got a lot of nerve
To say you are my friend.
When I was down you just stood there grinning.
You've got a lot of nerve
To say you've got a helping hand to lend.
You just want to be on the side that's winning.
You say I let you down,
You know it's not like that.
If you're so hurt, why then don't you show it?
You say you've lost your faith,
But that's not where it's at.
You have no faith to lose, and you know it.
I know the reason that
You talk behind my back.
I used to be among the crowd you're in with.
Do you take me for such a fool
To think I'd make contact
With the one who tries to hide what he don't know to begin with?
You see me on the street.
You always act surprised.
You say, how are you, good luck, but you don't mean it.
When you know as well as me,
You'd rather see me paralyzed.
Why don't you just come out once and scream it?
Now don't I feel that good
When I see the heartaches you embrace.
If I were a master thief perhaps I'd rob them.
And though I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place,
Don't you understand, it's not my problem.
I wish that for just one time,
You could stand inside my shoes,
And for that one moment I could be you.
Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes,
You'd know what a drag it is to see you.
- 88. surelyujest - November 12, 2010
Those who babble about life after death, or the "soul having will within the solar system," or Ouspensky zipping around the moons of Jupiter, have deluded themselves very badly. They have gotten the point of life exactly backwards, and are no more than religious zealots, talking of hydrogens instead of Jesus.
- 89. Renald - November 12, 2010
History does tend to repeat itself. I wonder why?
- 91. surelyujest - November 12, 2010
88 Renald
"History does tend to repeat itself. I wonder why?"
Because it's much more comfortable to believe that you know and understand, than it is to admit that you have little idea what's going on. It's actually the easiest thing in the world to make huge efforts "against the machine" while imagining some future reward. It's just racking up points for heaven with updated terminology. And playing the role of the wise man is a very alluring trap.
The problem is the way that the human mind works, with what is called confirmation bias. According to Wikipedia, confirmation bias is "the tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true." This explains how, after being introduced to the 4th Way and being told that you must keep a positive attitude in order to verify the ideas, you suddenly begin seeing confirmation for the ideas everywhere.
One of the easiest ways to prove this involves the folklore surrounding the effects of the full and new moon. If you seek to "verify" this idea, you will accept observations that confirm it, and reject those that don't. In other words, you feel odd or negative, so you look up the dates of the moon phases. If it is one, you add that to the verification side. If it's not, then you discard it, or wonder if it may be a meteor shower instead, or a comet, or sunspots. Soon you have "verified" the idea.
In prospective student meetings, we often told people that there were traces of esoteric knowledge in "life," but that people didn't understand the significance of it. As an example, we said that policemen knew about the fact of the moon, because more people were arrested during moon phases. But this wasn't just an FOF idea — this is an old urban legend. A scientific study a few years ago decided to investigate this idea, and did the simple work of comparing arrest records with the moon phases — and found no correlation whatsoever.
Now THAT is how you verify or disprove an idea. Approaching ideas like false personality and body types with confirmation bias will only lead to accepting them, and developing an alluringly complex mythology and imaginary knowledge. In fact, you could invent your own system with completely different ideas, and in the right environment (cult setting), people would "verify" your ideas. Just look at the other cults besides those of the 4th Way variety — the members speak with equal conviction about the truth of the their ideas, and how nonbelievers just don't get it.
If a person can really shed all the 4th Way dogma for a sufficiently long time, then come back and look at it impartially, the amount of imaginary nonsense will be staggeringly obvious.
But don't try and tell that to a zealot. Because their response will reveal their true nature, apart from all the lofty rhetoric — and it ain't pretty.
- 92. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 12, 2010
surelyujest: "One of the easiest ways to prove this involves the folklore surrounding the effects of the full and new moon. If you seek to "verify" this idea, you will accept observations that confirm it, and reject those that don't. In other words, you feel odd or negative, so you look up the dates of the moon phases. If it is one, you add that to the verification side. If it's not, then you discard it, or wonder if it may be a meteor shower instead, or a comet, or sunspots. Soon you have "verified" the idea."
Yes. Outstanding. Thanks for your comments. Confirmation bias — so true. There's a lack of scrutiny in general in the fof — scrutiny about what Burton is up to definitely, but also lack of scrutiny about the ideas overall.
Regarding moon phases, here's another thing: They were expanded quite a bit to include 3 days before and 3 days after. So if you had a full moon, the alleged effects of the full moon lasted for 6 days, not one. Multiply that by 2 to include the new moon, and you have at least 12 days where the moon is messing with everyone, and sometimes longer depending on the month. Think about it: If you and other people are acting a little stranger than usual today, there's a better than 40% chance that it's caused by one of the moon phases. So says the theory. And yes, if it's not one of those 12 or 13 days in the month, it was routinely explained away by saying it's probably meteor showers or planetary alignments.
There are numerous other examples if people really want to break it down. But even if you disagree with this and believe the Fourth Way and the FOF ideas are "practical" ideas and that you've verified them… Imagine a group of people actually meeting to discuss the ideas in a different way — not discussing them in a way that displays their so-called understanding and verification of them (which was the basic format in fof meetings since the beginning), but instead they discuss the ideas with a critical mind — to shine some light on them and to question them.
Imagine a meeting where people didn't "ask questions" but instead turned the word into a verb: Instead, they "questioned" everything put before them. Which by the way, is a much better road to knowledge and understanding and being, wouldn't you think…
- 93. surelyujest - November 12, 2010
92. Xavier Stewart Dent
"…but instead they discuss the ideas with a critical mind — to shine some light on them and to question them."
That kind of thing was not just actively discouraged, it was denounced outright, as "negative attitude." Aside from "negative attitude," the only terms more weighted with judgment and harsh criticism were "feminine dominance" and "tramp."
- 94. surelyujest - November 12, 2010
It's high time we call the zealots out, be they in the Fellowship, the 4th Way generally, religion or politics:
"Certainty is an alluring trap; the temptation of intellectual or spiritual pulls us under, riptide-like, into its soporific current."
From this online piece:
One of the more useful things Gurdjieff said was, something to the effect that a man may appear quite decent, but how does he behave when you prick him a little? This is nowhere more telling than how a person reacts when his beliefs are questioned, when he feels them threatened. If a person behaves like an animal as they defend the system that's supposed to make them into a god…BZZZZZT! Epic fail.
- 95. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 12, 2010
Yes, I absolutely agree. People were not allowed to argue or disagree. "Angles" about the ideas were simply agreements about them, but with minor variations that didn't stray too far. For some that presented the illusion of free thinking, but actual free thinking with dissenting viewpoints, arguments, and skepticism would have eroded the basis for the entire operation. (And by the way, not even "angles" are allowed at "meetings" anymore — only predigested and crafted messages handed down from the leadership). So it's no surprise that critical thinking is frowned upon. It would bring into focus how little we know about the universe and the afterlife, how little we know about ancient civilizations, how much we're missing by limiting ourselves to one line of thinking, how delusional much of the fof dogma is, and how unhealthy it is to never venture outside the boundaries.
Obviously there are many cults in this world, and many organizations, religions, movements, and corporate entities that have many of the same characteristics of cults — leaders using their power to deceive and take advantage, and all the other usual characteristics.
But think about: Can you mention even one cult in this world where the leader speaks so frequently about the "imagination" and "illusions" of the populace — all the while remaining completely oblivious to its own?
- 96. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 12, 2010
94. surelyujest
Your comments and the link: beautiful.
- 97. Renald - November 12, 2010
Re. 91. surelyujest – November 12, 2010
" According to Wikipedia, confirmation bias is "the tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true." "
There is also what I call the Einstein factor where he was supposed to have said that the experimenter influences the outcome of the experiment. In other words when one is "verifying" in a completely unbiased way any of the ideas one is taught, the outcome of this "experiment" (attempt at verifying) also creates what results one is looking for in a real way for that person at that time. The point I am trying to make is that this does not mean that the result of the experiment is false, merely imagined, out and out lies, but can be objective truth. A psychological example and I could use some help here with the names since it has been a while since I took into psych. could be where an experiment was conducted using students (real ones that is) where some were asked to play the role of prison guards and some the prisoners. Part way through the experiment it had to be stopped because of the abuse the prisoners were receiving at the hands of the guards. What I am saying here is that the guards were no longer pretending to be abusive, they actually were really abusive. Another example is of someone I know, a lady who was so obsessed about the idea that someone would rape her that she actually did get raped by four different men in approximately one year. By that time even her husband had started to doubt her, to think that she actually was purposely looking for opportunities to get raped. I know the lady and she was not the type who goes around looking sexy and acting like a slut. She was rather plain and ordinary looking. So how was she different than any other lady? She had a special focus, the thought of being raped and her fear only got stronger as time went on. My very own son had a strong fear about not being able to breathe, possibly from the experience of being born with the cord wrapped around his neck. He eventually died a healthy 23 year old in the process of planning his wedding from causes which to this day have been listed as unknown. So when I say that we create our realities through our focuses, those are some of the background information that I use in my verifications. If someone else were to come along and tell me that their personal verifications are different than mine, I would have no choice but to acknowledge their possibilities in a way that seems like the old parallel universes theory yet occuring in the same time and place.
- 98. Man Number Zero - November 13, 2010
Renald wrote:
"A psychological example and I could use some help here with the names since it has been a while since I took into psych. could be where an experiment was conducted using students (real ones that is) where some were asked to play the role of prison guards and some the prisoners."
The Stanford prison experiment, conducted in 1971 by a team of researchers led by psychology professor Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University. Described by Zimbardo in "The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil ", 2007.
- 99. paul g - November 13, 2010
97. Renald
You really ought to get into trouble for saying:
'even her husband had started to doubt her, to think that she actually was purposely looking for opportunities to get raped. I know the lady and she was not the type who goes around looking sexy and acting like a slut. She was rather plain and ordinary looking. So how was she different than any other lady?'
Are you saying that rapists only rape sexy, slut-like 'cute chicks?!'
I agree that your example may indicate that her fear of it could of attracted the crime, criminals attack the vulnerable, a certain type of criminal has a second sense for vulnerability. But you've chosen a very contentious, difficult and rare example of a crime that shames mankind. Particularly in the wake of war. Most women (though I can't find the statistic right now) are raped by people they know, as is the case of child abuse. And so are students of the fellowship of friends.
95. Xavier Stewart Dent
The Fourth Way has taken aspects of Sufism and other spiritual mysticism and castrated the God, Conscience and Humility out of them. Particularly in the ff through Bobby Burton. So its funny that this 'school of philosophy' so distains the necessary critical thinking and examination to make it live and breath with the inspiration of truth. The conceit of it is part of it's winning flattery. I began to see the ff as a sort of bastion of spiritual yuppiedom, it's for people who buy art as conversation pieces and know fuck all about the matter. And how can they when all the time they have to swallow nonsense and pay for it through the nose? The main thing is it's exciting nonsense, like the guy who took in his pc and got fleeced for 12 million dollars or more by a couple who told him they were protecting him from Opus Dei.
I still can't believe that students are not even allowed to actually say anything in meetings. What an abortion. But doctor knows best…
- 100. paul g - November 13, 2010
- 101. Renald - November 14, 2010
Thank you so much Paul G. for setting up the Millgram and Stanford Prison videos. They are so much better than the brief descriptions I had read.
Re. 98. paul g – November 13, 2010
97. Renald
" You really ought to get into trouble for saying:
'even her husband had started to doubt her, to think that she actually was purposely looking for opportunities to get raped. I know the lady and she was not the type who goes around looking sexy and acting like a slut. She was rather plain and ordinary looking. So how was she different than any other lady?'
Are you saying that rapists only rape sexy, slut-like 'cute chicks?!'"
Not at all. What I tried to indicate was that it would be easier to understand how the husband and most of their common friends could eventually turn on her if she would have been a kind of floozy type of person, but she was not. Therefore one would doubt that this would be their responses, yet there it was. The two experiments above go a long way in explaining human behavior that nobody would anticipate. The victim created an outcome and the observers created their own as well. So how is it so different in the fof? We each played our parts in that play and each created our specific futures depending on how our personal focuses had been set up for by our pasts, our programs, the very same ones which brought us there in the first place. What an eye opener for those of us who would and do get into judgement or guilt! Cheers!!
- 102. nige - November 14, 2010
100 Renald
It was this way for me when 'released' from the FOF. I felt guilt and shame at having failed to be 'on the way to Heaven'. This went on for three and a half years until I enrolled on a secondary teaching course and knew my role would be as a teacher, even though it was not until seven years ago that this became a 'solid venture'…..Nigel.
- 103. Renald - November 14, 2010
re 101 Nige
Having read your post I was reminded of material I read many years ago but had mostly forgotten. So I googled it and came across this site below. In case I do not gwet the link right I googled "Chanelling Michael".
I was flabergasted to find that this information was made public in 1973 in the Bay Area. It has an intellectual formulation and though I was attracted to it originally may also explain why I just dropped it out of my ongoing search, or did I?
As you can see it is extremely familiar and I am not being queeny.
The link probably needs to be retyped on a single line. Have fun, cheers!
- 105. nige - November 14, 2010
103 Renald
Sounds a bit creepy to me – is that what you meant? Didn't Miles Barth, when he left FOF, get into something like 'Messages from Michael'? I derive far more benefit from the 'little teachings' of my holistic therapist student – the philosophy is one of 'mind, body, spirit' and the integration of all three. She is down to earth about the body, knows how the mind can affect one's well-being and is well aware that there is a spirit world that affects the same nature within us. Just because I am away from the cultish FOF does not mean I have given up on my 'spiritual pathway'…..Nigel.
- 106. nige - November 14, 2010
In the film/movie "I, Robot" the character played by Will Smith says, "Maybe that is what freedom means – finding your true purpose." Certainly, for anyone with the least morsel of searching for self-realization, there must always be the idea of purpose in what one is involved with. I cannot really believe there is any sincerity towards themselves for those idiots in the FOF who are computer-programmers and corporate-headhunters, studying some sort of hobby-like art-form. I would like to know what others think…..Nigel.
- 107. Renald - November 15, 2010
re. 105. nige
I don`t know about creepy but it sure was some coincidence that the Michael teaching were basically word for word the same stuff being taught in the fof when I joined in 1989 and that this material had come out in 1972 and later. I think it is the word for word part that got to me.
If it had been my school I would have at least made some attempt to camouflage the material and make it sound a tiny bit original. Those must have been some drugs being used on the west coast in those days! Cheers!!
- 108. veramente - November 16, 2010
Alcohol Use: Used occasionally
Just one of the lies…
If you want to leave a comment it must be only about your positive experiences in the fellowship.
- 110. victoria zeischegg - November 17, 2010
I agree Bruce. That is what came to mind when I watched last night.
- 111. McMikey - November 18, 2010
New! Micro-thin-Nano Technology Breakthrough!
Can be applied to any organization, society, cult, group or political party!
An invisible veneer of respectability/reason/superiority/pomp & circumstance that is virtually undetectable, yet so strong it protects against all civil & criminal laws as well as financial shenanigans.
Can also be used as a deodorant.
- 112. McMikey - November 18, 2010
Comes in a bucket, put it on with a trowel!
P.S. fofblogmoderator, have you forgotten that I asked you a direct question about censorship?
- 114. McMikey - November 18, 2010
Thanks. My apologies. Keep up the good work.
- 115. Wonderwork - November 18, 2010
Hi there,
I am a relatively a new student – not a US citizen.
Before I joined I was reading several parts of this discussion forum. Some of it is quite interesting, but it also sounds quite indoctrinating. Anyway it has made me curious about the school. I thought of joining for a while and finally I joined less than a year ago. Recently I was visiting Apollo for six weeks – one of the greatest experiences of my life. I have met the most sincere, gentle and pleasant people I have ever met in my entire life. It is also a sort of a convent. Yet, it has a reasonable code of behavior, and I noticed that people in-charge use moderate approaches toward the rules. So far the advantages of being in the school are by far surmounting the flaws.
This school is really focusing on being present; It is a challenging and inspiring path. I have no doubts about the sincerity of students in relation to this idea no matter what some of you might say.
Though I cannot know for sure, I do believe that some of the testimonials written here might be genuine, yet I am quite positive that there is a lot of distorted and hearsay stuff written here as well. One can sense that from the way some people are expressing themselves in these discussions.
About morality and human values:
The US armed forces have been killing and torturing thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq and nothing substantial has been done against these actions. Yet no one here in this discussion forum has ever mentioned it and no one is calling anyone to renounce their US citizenship and leave the US.
The fact that you are not going against these actions and send back your passports to the US state department shows that you can live with it!!!
Well I can live with some of the accusations against the teacher and enjoy the great spiritual benefits of the school.
- 116. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 19, 2010
109. brucelevy
"Lie to Me
Season 3, Episode 6 – Beyond Belief
With a few transpositions this is a remarkable depiction of Robert Burton's whole dynamic. I recommend it. The sociopathic cult leader."
Go here to view the full episode online:
- 117. note to moderator - November 19, 2010
looks like there are some issues with posting.
- 118. former initiate - November 19, 2010
Moderator, I've had two or three attempted posts go nowhere. Might be an issue with posting URLs?
109. brucelevy
Yes, and you can watch the full episode here:
fox dot com/lietome/full-episodes
- 120. nige - November 20, 2010
115 wonderwork
"gentle and pleasant people"…..
gently persuasive with regard to REB's demands and hypnotically pleasant…..
- 121. Ames Gilbert - November 20, 2010
Hello, Wonderwork (#97-115), and welcome to the discussion.
I still remember the sense of wonder and good fortune I had when I joined in 1978 and for the first few years, so I appreciate what you are feeling now. If you did due diligence (for example, asked yourself questions such as the list I made for prospective members on page 23-169 of this discussion, and suggestions by others in the same vein), and carry on asking yourself hard questions about the nature of verification for yourself (not Girard Haven's idea of verification as I discussed in 86-154, and the observations of others on the same subject), then maybe this experience is right for you.
You do not state your sex, but I am curious as to what you think about Burton having sex with many of his male heterosexual followers from either a male or female viewpoint. And, if you are female, how do you feel about being told that there is zero chance that you will 'wake up' (whatever that means) in this lifetime? (And if you are male, what do you make of that, anyway?) What do you think about what you have been told (and this is all it can be, unless you are that rare person who can recall previous lifetimes from direct experience) about multiple lifetimes and Burton's ideas of some kind of advancement through them?
I appreciate what you say about the nice people. They are all very earnest and helpful, aren't they? But if you have indeed read through all these pages, surely the ideas presented have made you aware how dangerous entering such an insular, self-reinforcing system of beliefs can be, the pitfalls of isolating yourself in subtle and ever deepening ways from what is pejoratively termed 'life' influences, including your family and friends? What system of checks have you put in place to avoid being trapped in the bubble?
If you are like me, you are probably what is referred to as an idealist; maybe that means something to you, perhaps not. What I can tell you is that the Fellowship of Friends seemed to fulfill many dreams and needs for me. And although Burton told me that the FoF is not a community, for me it certainly was, and your words about all the nice people leads me to believe that you might feel the same. If you look up the definition of 'community', it would seem to fit.
I also know that for many years I was unwilling to accept the reality of the Fellowship of Friends, and when Burton's misdeeds became known, I at first refused to face what this meant, and what I was doing to try to 'hold everything together'. So I ask you, do you think that the huge inequality of power between Burton and any of his followers allows any kind of meaningful relationship? Do you feel awe, gratitude, or fear when around Burton? Under such conditions, do you think sexual relations between Burton and his male heterosexual followers can ever lead to anything good?
You appreciate the intense focus on 'being present, but is not the purpose of the FoF to make people 'conscious'? What do you believe that 'consciousness' means? What do you think of the fact that the only person in the FoF who believes that he has become 'conscious' is Girard Haven? Do you want Robert Burton or Girard Haven to teach you to become like them? What do you think about the others that Burton claimed had become 'conscious' over the forty years that the FoF has existed? Do you understand what Gurdjieff meant by the necessity for individuation? Do you ever envisage graduating from the 'school' and going off to make your path as an individual? If not, why not? And if you subscribe to Burton's theory of 'multiple lifetimes', why do you do so? And if you don't, how do you deal with the chasm between Burton's claims and your own beliefs, in this and in other areas?
Lots of questions here, and why should you answer them? Well, you are investing a substantial amount of your time, life energy, efforts and money in this enterprise, and I'd suggest these are actually a minimum. There are people in the FoF who have been there ten, twenty, thirty, forty years and have not attained the goals they entered with. Why is that? What does it say about the efficacy of Burton's methods?
There are many other questions, and at some point they will have to be answered in full if you are to be honest with yourself. Why not start now?
I wish you the best,
Ames Gilbert
- 122. WhaleRider - November 21, 2010
Burton: Condoms Can Be Justified in Some Cases
VATOSIN CITY (Yuba County)– Pope Burton says in a new book that condoms can be justified…but only for male prostitutes seeking to prevent infecting him with HIV, a stunning comment for this quasi church so heavily criticized for its opposition to such common sense measures and surprisingly appropriate for a self-appointed pontiff who has been blamed for infecting many of his young male followers and their girlfriends with Herpes.
The pope made the comments in a book-length interview with a German journalist, "Light of the World???: The Pope, the Fellowship, and the Writing on the Wall," which is being released Tuesday.
Burton's teaching has long opposed condoms because they are a form of contraception or in his words, "unnecessary suffering" and a "buffer of reality", although unbelievably Burton has never released an explicit policy to his flock about condoms, HIV, or other STD's in light of his behind the scenes activities with most of the men. The Fellowship has been harshly criticized for its opposition to condom use, especially by the wives of the married men who frequent Burton's inner circle.
Burton said that condoms are "an emblem of feminine dominance" and that absolutely nobody in his religion will awaken using them. But he said in some cases, such as for the male prostitutes he frequents when he is traveling abroad, they could be justified "in the intention of reducing the risk of infection in a hasty or desperate situation."
His female followers hailed it "a first step in a movement toward a different way, a safer way of coping with our leader's satyriasis."
Burton used as an example his male prostitutes, for whom contraception is not an issue, as opposed to married couples where one spouse might be infected by him. The Fellowship has come under pressure from even some church officials abroad to condone condom use for young, newly joined, monogamous married couples to protect the uninfected spouse from getting infected after the other returns from an all expense paid trip to Apollo.
Burton drew the wrath of the United Nations, European governments and AIDS activists around the world when he told reporters en route to Cairo in 2009 that preventing the AIDS problem in Africa or on the planet shouldn't be resolved by distributing condoms or addressed at all.
"On the contrary, when more people live, it increases the hunger of the evil moon," he said then.
Journalist Peter Seemoreliesburg, who interviewed Burton over the aperitif course of six days this summer, raised the Africa condom comments and asked Burton if it wasn't "madness" for the Fellowship to forbid its high-risk population to use condoms.
"There may be a rational basis for using protection in the case of some individuals with whom I routinely come in contact and are not among my followers, as like perhaps when I am traveling to remote exotic places and there aren't enough of my followers around and I have to hire an expensive male prostitute who uses a condom because he tells me at the last minute he has HIV…this is where a condom can be a first step in the direction of rationalization, a first assumption of responsibility on my part," Burton said, "and that's a giant step for me, despite my distaste for them."
But he stressed that he has no intention of lessening his pleasure and dealing with the possible evil spread of HIV among any of his faithful followers, their spouses, or their dogs, and elsewhere in the book reaffirmed Fellowship teaching on contraception and abortion, saying: "It is indeed such a pity that so many children have to be killed each year who might one day have been in my inner circle, who could have given me something new and fresh to look at, or who could have given me a new ring or new Mozart Mix."
He also reiterated the Fellowship's paradoxical position that while in his group, abstinence and marital fidelity is the only sure way to keep him at bay.
In the book, the reclusive Burton also offers insights into his private life, saying he enjoys watching porno at home in the evenings with his many secretaries and the four new young Russian converts who take care of his villa and dust wearing only Speedos, preferring the bulk of his other male visitors in the evening after dinner and a few tall glasses of wine and under the cover of darkness. He said the news is just "too coarse and negative" so he never watches it.
He said he always wears his white cassock with nothing else underneath at night, never a turtle-neck sweater, still has most of his teeth, and wears an old Junghans watch that was left to him by his hairdresser who died of AIDS.
When he prays, he revealed, he prays first to the great Lingam, as well as to each of the 44 saints and considers himself nowadays just "good friends" with not only DaVinci, but Sts. Augustine, Bongayadventure and Thomas Upuranus, too.
- 123. nige - November 21, 2010
121 Ames Gilbert
You certainly are the man to tell 'the inside story'. I hope wonderwork listens to you…..Nigel.
- 124. veramente - November 21, 2010
115 wonderwork
It seems to me you are trying to justify the immorality going on in the FOF comparing it to a completely off the charts example like the US government.
From what you are saying, the FOF seems to be quite like your universe, you can live with it do the many pleasantries and the work of being present.
If you are like me years ago, when I came to Apollo from my country in Europe, the first 6 months I was all in a wonder, being in a place that seemed contained like a convent as you say, at the same time promoting a freedom I thought I never knew. But it did not last long.
It started wearing me out, past the six months, the glittering gold started showing major flaws, and the daily grind was as any other on earth but with much less at the end of the month.
I can tell you that once the novelty of your experience wears out, you may be told you are in a interval,(which means: I do not like this after all, conscience arising) and so you will try finding another novelty or a new "I" so to speak to keep you going, in psychological shackles.
Good luck!
- 125. veramente - November 21, 2010
wonderwork, a good book to read that may help you to be fair is "The Guru Papers". (google it for the author)
The way I wrote my post to you earlier has bitterness indeed and impatience in seeing this group is still attracting new students. If this is true of course, that you are a new student.
- 126. Golden Veil - November 21, 2010
121. Ames Gilbert
I think that this entire post brilliantly and succinctly lists many essential questions that every Fellowship of Friends student needs to ask of themselves (and others.) Bravo Ames, and thanks!
124. veramente
"I can tell you that once the novelty of your experience wears out, you may be told you are in a interval, (which means: I do not like this after all, conscience arising) and so you will try finding another novelty or a new "I" so to speak to keep you going, in psychological shackles."
Yes, veramente, and so it was for me, too, and probably for many past students prior to their exit, or 'self-graduation;' and so it will be for many future students to come. Conscience, the real C influence, eventually calls.
- 127. X-ray - November 21, 2010
115. Wonderwork – November 18, 2010
You are naive and know nothing about the fellowship cult. This 'school' is focusing on robbing and raping you as much as possible and you are about to make this discovery yourself.
- 128. Golden Veil - November 21, 2010
122. WhaleRider
Through his comedic, satirical writing, WhaleRider draws attention to the need for all Fellowship of Friends male students who have sex with 'The Teacher' Robert Burton (and female students whose husbands, boyfriends, or casual sexual partners may have sex with Robert Burton) to use condoms to protect themselves from getting the genital and/or oral Herpes virus. There is no cure for the Herpes virus. It is highly contagious, whether or not there are visible sores present on the lips or penis. Good post, WhaleRider. Thank you.
- 129. Golden Veil - November 21, 2010
122. WhaleRider
I meant to say that the possibility of contracting the Aids virus (HIV positive blood test) as well, is a real threat. 'The Teacher' Robert Burton has 'high risk' sex with multiple partners.
Have you ever heard that saying that when you have sex with someone you have it with all their past sexual partners, too? I don't want to sound puritanical, but hey- if there IS any truth to that saying, and you are having sex with Robert Burton, you ARE having sex with a hell of a lot of people!
In fact, it would be better to decline the invitation to have 'divine sex' [sic] with 'The Teacher' Robert Burton at all. Condoms are known to tear and then they will fail to protect you! If you are already having sex with "the goddess in a man's body" you would be wise to stop doing so and get yourself an HIV test.
- 130. another name - November 22, 2010
There is "no cure" for infertility. What I am trying to say is; having sex with men who have anal sex,increases your risks of Pelvic Inflammatory Disease and increases your risk of infertility.
Women be aware and men too.
- 131. silentpurr - November 22, 2010
dear wonderwork,
what we are trying to say here is that there is no 'there' there.
The Fellowship you are experiencing is all part of the illusion created to serve Robert's lifestyle.
You may have noble intentions which mirror the finer emotions in those around you (students have always been the best part of the fof).
You may learn some important things about valuation and making efforts, friendship. But try not to believe that by joining the Fellowship you have escaped "tramp", because in the right light 'tramps' smudges can be seen and felt everywhere.
-and unless you have personally felt the sting of Robert's will you are not really "in".
One is not really in until one REALLY wants out!
It is the 'Way of Disappointment', everyone pays.
- 132. Renald - November 22, 2010
Anything pushed against hard enough produces a tar-baby-like result. It just cannot be any other way.
The only way out is to focus on where one wants to go, what one wants to do with life and slip out of the revolving door at the appropriate moment.
Simple, really. Cheers !!
- 133. nige - November 23, 2010
Dear wonderwork
I have been wondering, for several days after your first post, about how to address your joining and wish for staying. I was a 'member' of the FOF for 11 years – always financially 'down at heel' and survived a serious suicide attempt in 1989, when I was 'rescued' by a dear friend (who always will be admired by me) who is now an ex-member and flourishing as a literary genius. What I have to say is – you do not have to join this or any other CULT to experience your reality. If you are, as they say, – IN YOUR ELEMENT – which can be translated as HAVING A STRONG AND INDOMNITABLE ESSENCE – you will find all your true friends and all the material you need to support your reality and go beyond that into HUMANITARIAN SERVICE – IN LIFE – TRUE LIFE. IN the FOF all seeming goodness will be 'the smile on the face of the tiger'. Best wishes for your escape from THE CULT…..Nigel.
- 134. nige - November 23, 2010
My newest client – heartfriend (Solar-Lunar)…..www.creativescollide.com. Her name is Nicola.
- 135. nige - November 23, 2010
Burst into tears when this was playing on the video music channel – recommend you YouTube it for the music…..Nigel.
"He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother"
(B. Scott and B. Russell)
The road is long
With many a winding turn
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows when
But I'm strong
Strong enough to carry him
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
So on we go
His welfare is of my concern
No burden is he to bear
We'll get there
For I know
He would not encumber me
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
If I'm laden at all
I'm laden with sadness
That everyone's heart
Isn't filled with the gladness
Of love for one another
It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on the way to there
Why not share
And the load
Doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
He's my brother
He ain't heavy, he's my brother…
- 136. arthur - November 23, 2010
The Ravenscroft music reminds me of the sounds coming from the HumanityHealing Channel.
Very soothing.
- 137. former initiate - November 23, 2010
An angle spoken loud and clear at a future Fellowship of Friends meeting:
"Wake up from your trance; Robert Burton is a sociopath."
- 138. Xavier Stewart Dent - November 24, 2010
Happy Thanksgiving holiday to everyone. Much to be grateful for, and wishing for each of you a world of abundance with joyful possibilities, with personal growth and discoveries, and with true and lasting friendships.
- 139. silentpurr - November 24, 2010
…and remember kittens, like the sun, we only live in what we give out.
- 140. Ames Gilbert - November 26, 2010
I wrote this on another Thanksgiving day (as celebrated in the U.S.A.)
Today, and every day, I am thankful that I'm no longer a member of the cult called the Fellowship of Friends. I feel lucky.
Daily Cardiac and many hundred others are thankful that they are followers of Burton. They feel lucky—and special. And so they should. They believe they have been chosen by angels from nearly 7 billion doomed humans now alive to become 'immortal' (whatever that means). Now, that's special!
Thank you again, DC, for laying out your belief system so directly. Anyone interested in or considering joining the Fellowship who does due diligence will appreciate your efforts, and hopefully see them as they are. Your post #86–73 could hardly be clearer; it is a catalog of your articles of faith. If anyone who has had no connection to the FoF, but is interested in that organization reads this, I'm writing this for you.
If you want to join a group of people like DC, mostly sincere, nice, well–meaning folks, but whose entire 'spiritual' center of gravity is based on faith, know that in advance—and accept the consequences. Look through these pages for posts by Daily Cardiac, an excellent representative of the typical follower's point of view. Know that many of us (I dare say, probably most) who have 'been through the mill' have concluded that the leader, Robert Burton, is a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, and that having sex with large numbers of the heterosexual young men who depend on him for spiritual guidance is his chief occupation, and has been for forty years. Know that if you are a young, even moderately good-looking young heterosexual male, you will most probably end up having sex with him. Know that your fellow followers will approve of this, encourage this, and the less than good-looking ones will envy you (though these are few, Burton's tastes are very catholic). In other words, in their world–view, this is completely normal and expected. Know that he has no control in this matter, and has never demonstrated will or restraint. Know that his followers excuse and even justify this 'supersex' (as he terms it) because he is a 'conscious being'.
Know also that Burton is a life–long misogynist. He has no use for women as women, unless they have money or influence. Moreover, he states that they cannot 'awaken' as women in this lifetime. This means that if you are a woman, you will (according to Burton) definitely have to wait for a 'role in a future lifetime as a man' (with the sole exception of Elizabeth I, Queen of England, for some reason) to be able to 'awaken', whatever that is.
If you happen to be here because you are interested in the Fourth Way, know that, apart from words freely borrowed from the Fourth Way, this cult has no connection with the Fourth Way whatsoever. The Fourth Way terms are bait, pure and simple. There has been no transmission of knowledge or energy from Alex Horn to Robert Burton. Nor was there a transmission from J.G. Bennett to Horn (whose entire experience of the Fourth Way in the direct line was as a three–week drop–in at the end of one of Bennett's courses in England). Horn had no contact with Rodney Collin, whatever Burton claims or insinuates. The rest came from books or odd meetings with others interested in the Fourth Way. Whatever the level of Horn, Burton failed miserably to fulfill the task given to him, to cease his sexual pursuit of male fellow 'students'. And, Burton himself is openly proud of the fact that he has never read any work of Gurdjieff. His quotes of Gurdjieff's words come from his brief encounters with Ouspensky's books and what he has picked up from his more organized or intellectual followers. He has yet to explain the vast gap between his being a self-proclaimed Man number 7.9, or whatever, and the next and only 'conscious product' of his organization, the infamous Girard Haven, official hagiographer, Man number 5 point something. Remember the Fourth Way idea that one has to help put someone in one's place before one can 'move on'?
As a particular example, the meaning of the word 'verification' has been turned on its head. As you inevitably reorient yourself to the Fellowship groupthink (your new friends are so nice, so helpful, so knowledgeable, and you are so eager to learn, to please, to fit in…), you will be persuaded that 'testing' hypotheses according to reason and the scientific method is faulty thinking, emanating from your 'lower self'. Instead the major part of your 'work' is to first accept given/revealed articles of faith as true and then strive to find evidence for them. Failing that, you are to 'observe and record' and put any doubting thoughts 'on the back burner', or, as you become more advanced, dispense with them altogether because they are generated by your 'lower self'. When the back burner is full, you will be kept so busy you won't notice the older thoughts 'to be worked with later' permanently falling into oblivion. Know that the many general 'exercises' given out by Burton are a miraculous one–size fits all. Any individual attention that each follower may need is farmed out to one or other of the 44 angels, the discorporate remains of (mostly) white, male Europeans who have left a historical record. More than strange, huh? Almost all the personal exercises given by Dear Teacher are of the "C-Influence wishes you to internally consider me, give up your body for my pleasure' type. Though, for variety, there are the never–ending requests for more money, gifts, favors of all kinds, or 'You should marry this person or that'.
Know that Burton is probably the most superstitious person you will ever hear of or meet. This 'conscious being', having lost his own internal way, relies on external signs of every type, from chance license plate numbers to a grotesque numerology and symbology, whose significance is supported and 'researched' by the members themselves, and as stated above, always seeking 'proof' to support the pre–conceptions. One example among literally thousands: Burton interprets the number of rhino poops in prehistoric cave drawings as messages the artists intentionally left for him across tens of centuries! Based on this rare sensitivity, Burton continually makes prophecies, whose record of complete failure (including highlights such as the drowning of California in 1996, nuclear Armageddon in 2006, the production of seven 'conscious beings', and so on) he petulantly explains in terms such as, "C–Influence has humiliated me". At the same time, mirabile dictu, Burton claims that every jot and title of existence is preordained, a 'play written by the angels'. In his universe, he supplies the 'crazy' while his followers infer the 'wisdom', so all in the narcissistic dance are happy. Oh, and you'll be glad he has made improvements to the Fourth Way apart from inventing angels whose sole welfare is those who write checks to Burton, and who will attend the complete destruction of the rest of humanity. For example, unlike Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or Bennett in whose teachings conscience is as important as, and inseparable from, consciousness, Burton has little use for the former. In fact he says, "Conscience is just a collection of I's. Anyone accumulating too much should leave the school". One less thing to worry about, huh? And as strong an indicator as any that he doesn't have conscience—and hence, consciousness—himself.
If you indeed value the Fourth Way, then before you consider joining the Fellowship of Friends, you owe it to yourself to find out everything you can about them. There is much more in these pages and elsewhere. I know, it is quite an effort to go through them. But the time you invest doing this is miniscule compared to the time you will waste and the harm that may befall you if you join the cult. I'm not claiming you will learn nothing, just that you can achieve better results in far less time elsewhere, without paying the price the greedy and literally insatiable Burton demands.
So much for the Fourth Way. How about the Second Way? If you take a masochistic satisfaction in being told what to do in all areas of your life, have blind trust in authoritarian structures, have faith in revealed truths, and desperately need to cultivate obedience, you'll certainly be interested in some form of the Second Way. But why not just join the Carthusians or some other group with a good record? For a start, they are much quicker and more efficient. You have the possibility of reaching salvation during or at the end of this lifetime. Not so Burton's religion. He claims you will need many lifetimes of unremitting toil and devotion to counter your built–in weaknesses and achieve immortality. Meanwhile, Mr. "Do as I say, not as I do" trusts not to the future, but lives the life of a spoiled potentate right now. He will use your money to live luxuriously. He may use your body for his sexual pleasure. He will travel widely at your expense. He will dress in the finest and most expensive clothing, silken underwear, drink wine worth hundreds of dollars at every meal, drive the best cars, travel first class everywhere, and give rich gifts to his lovers—while he favors them—all from your earnings. His followers exist to hang on every word, gratify every whim, and worship him as "the brightest light in 2,000 years. Not so incidentally, he is 'beyond Judeo–Christian morality' (though he has yet to formulate a successor).
Why would you want to dive into the fantasy world of this twisted, lying madman, who seems to exist solely for the titillation of the nerve endings in his penis and anus—and for shopping? Rather, go join an order of nuns or monks. If you are interested in experiencing the state popularly known as consciousness, study Zen or become a Buddhist.
Otherwise, stick around back here with the rest of us and try to do the best you can for yourself and your fellow humans with love and integrity, living life in all its juicy mess, ups and downs, accepting the need for risks, facing the unknown and unknowable with all the courage you can muster.
- 141. McMikey - November 26, 2010
This information also available in specially marked boxes, without the sugar coating.
Tastes better, all humor, no slander.
And it's good for you.
- 142. nige - November 26, 2010
My brother, Richard, bought me the CD of Beth Nielsen Chapman album 'Back To Love'. There are many beautiful tracks, but the one I am listening to is 'The Path Of Love'. I recommend the music, if you can YouTube this track, but thought I would post the lyrics here…..Nigel.
Oh the path of love is deep with a thousand twists and turns;
There are promises to keep, there are endless things to learn,
Through the laughter and the tears sometimes lost, sometimes alone;
Letting go is how you steer, and it always leads you home,
Oh the path of love is free, it will never hold you back;
Like the branches of a tree, reaching out till its lost track,
And it opens wide each heart like the seed that breaks the stone;
No matter where you are, it will always lead you home,
Oh the path of love is true, and it only wants what's best;
There are doors it pulls us through as it puts us to the test,
And there's nothing to pretend, in our heart somehow we've known;
The path of love won't end, no it only leads us home,
The path of love won't end, it only leads us home.
- 143. WhaleRider - November 27, 2010
"Christ was Gay," says Cult Leader
FOOTLOOSE FOOTHILLS (USA)-The entire Christian world was turned bottoms up when a startling esoteric truth was made public by Robert E. Burton, President and CEO of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. (and its subsidiary Pathway to Presence), a privately held, self-profiting corporation dedicated to the advancement of esoteric homosexuality among its few incredibly lucky shareholders and those who survive the next Armageddon, if it ever comes.
In one of his cheeky and some say, "freakish" wine cellar dinners held deep in the lower levels of his extravagant villa and after emptying several bottles of an exquisite hundred year old Bordeaux all paid for by his followers, Burton claimed last night to the shock and awe of his dreamy-eyed followers that "higher forces had revealed to him the esoteric truth that Christ was secretly gay. And that's why all of Christ's apostles were men and his only female follower was a reformed whore who did all the fluffing and foot massages."
Reportedly those in attendance were stunned, speechless, and some didn't understand English very well either.
Witnesses said Burton, quite at home in his dimly-lit, windowless and well-fortified subterranean cell, proceeded to unzip first the flies of those faithful older males in his inner circle, followed by the newly joined younger males attending, and drink, as he put it, "the nectar of the Gods" from all those who would submit to his bizarre sexual rite in which condoms were not allowed to be used.
And just as Christ's followers were expected to accept and incorporate the heavenly host as a ritualized part of his body becoming part of theirs, witnesses say so to Burton's closest male followers were expected to literally follow suit and eventually accept his "esoteric version" of the "heavenly host" from him in a reciprocal act, regardless of their sexual preference, or they will be asked to leave the group.
Burton was later quoted as saying, "I'm only doing others as I would like to be done, as Christ said. What's the problem with that?"
- 144. X-ray - November 28, 2010
'Burton was later quoted as saying, "I'm only doing others as I would like to be done, as Christ said. What's the problem with that?"'
You cracked me up Whale!
- 145. nige - November 28, 2010
Hue and Cry – "Ordinary Angel"…..
I got the card, delivers the goods
Fills me with happiness
It's joy for a while 'till the first of the month
Then I'm chasing my tail again
I want a life that's bigger than me
'Cause I'm crushing myself to death
Tell you what I don't need
No heaven sent deity
'Cause I'm an ordinary angel
Winning tiny victories
And though the ordinary angels fly
Their wings weigh heavily
I try to be a daily genius
There's no idea beyond my reach
With all the angels and the geniuses
My company I'm gonna keep
I'm watching the news and I feel my face
Hanging like plasticene
Now I see the plot, I've got the plan
Every move is transparent to me
Profit and power's turning the world
And I'm leaning against the spin
Give me a vision please
And I don't mean heavenly
I'm an ordinary angel
Winning tiny victories
And though the ordinary angels fly
Their wings weigh heavily
I try to be a daily genius
There's no idea beyond my reach
With all the angels and the geniuses
My company I'm gonna keep
I want a life that's bigger than me
'Cause I'm crushing myself to death
Give me a vision please
And I don't mean heavenly
I am an ordinary angel
I am an ordinary angel child
Walking with the daily geniuses
I am an ordinary angel
Flying as high as I can…
- 146. Golden Veil - December 1, 2010
140. Ames Gilbert
Brilliantly outlines what many former students of the Fellowship of Friends have found out personally about the organization and its 'Teacher' Robert Burton. What date was this first posted, Ames?
143. WhaleRider
Burton was later quoted as saying, "I'm only doing others as I would like to be done, as Christ said. What's the problem with that?"
- 147. nige - December 1, 2010
Ames Gilbert wrote…..
…..stick around back here with the rest of us and try to do the best you can for yourself and your fellow humans with love and integrity, living life in all its juicy mess, ups and downs, accepting the need for risks, facing the unknown and unknowable with all the courage you can muster.
Good advice, Ames. Thank you…..Nigel
- 148. surelyujest - December 3, 2010
The leaders of religion have always known that they could enforce desirable behavior by claiming that compliance will have the benefits of a heavenly afterlife, while failure to behave will result in damnation. Those who believe in any ideology, are people willing to take ideas on faith, with the promise of a future reward.
The 4th Way is no different. The founders, G & O, milked a lifestyle by updating the usual religious notions with vaguely scientific, very 19th Century mechanistic thought, with a dab of Nietzsche. Heaven is immortality within the solar system, with a soul composed of hydrogens that self-assemble when you self-remember. Don't tell me there's no faith involved in believing that. Compliance is further ensured with the self-serving notion of giving up self-will. A community is held together by obedience. No one benefits more than the leader.
I came across this part of a poem recently:
And you? "You"? Waiting to experience a moment
That has no precedent. The wish to be a child,
Or the wish to be outside of time,
The craving, that is, for a kind of death
In which one stays somehow alert…
Charles Baxter
"Some Instances"
I think that sums up the situation very nicely. Note the use of "You" in quotes.
So we're left with an ideology, bereft of its founders and leaders, that was only little more than a spinoff religion. I feel that the few hardline believers that are left are like those Japanese soldiers who were stranded alone on an island, with no general to guide them, believing they were still at war decades later.
- 149. nige - December 3, 2010
148 surelyujest
That, in some way, sums up what followers of the Fellowship of Friends are doing. They take for granted that payment, in monetary terms, or in any form of 'necessary suffering' will make them deserve the 'Heaven Sought'. How stupid!…..Nigel
- 150. Golden Veil - December 4, 2010
Let's play Pretend!
Magical thinking,
Wishful thinking,
Fellowship thinking…
Play time is over-
Time to Grow Up!
- 151. Linda - December 5, 2010
Ames 121 and 140. I am proud to be a friend of yours Ames and rejoice that I found you again after the school. I keep reading this blog now and then to keep up. I hope 'Wonderwork' and others in their position really listen to what you are saying and do not have to go through a similar path. I was told in 1982 that it would be better that I had not been born when I left the school … how wrong they were …. my life truly began when I did …
- 152. Former "Living Presence" Member - December 5, 2010
Holy smokes, it's a challenge keeping up with all of these name changes:
Speaking of "playing pretend" and "time to grow up", it seems like Burton is playing a little game of hide and seek with internet surfers. Note that "Fellowship of Friends" and "Pathway to Presence" show up prominently in Google searches with links to criticism and warnings about this cult. "Living Presence" doesn't though. Not yet anyway, but for now I'm sure that's the link they give to prospects.
So, what will be the NEXT name for the Fellowship of Friends?
- 153. WhaleRider - December 5, 2010
- 154. nige - December 5, 2010
151 WhaleRider
As you know, I have no sound function on my computer, due to it crashing and being rebooted with a 'drone disc', so cannot listen to Imogen Heap.
However, I have been thinking about this blogsite and, especially, the postings of Wonderwork. WHY WERE WE SO HYPNOTIZED (SELF-HYPNOTIZING?) and why, now we are OUT, why can we not make see, how those STILL IN ARE SO HYPNOTIZED (SELF-HYPNOTIZING). REB stated that "Beauty produces its likeness in those who pursue it" – and his world is SEXUALLY, INTELLECTUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY UGLY. Come on, you guys, let's hear those posts!!!!!…..Nigel.
- 155. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2010
"REB stated that "Beauty produces its likeness in those who pursue it" – and his world is SEXUALLY, INTELLECTUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY UGLY."
A real life 'Black Swan'.
- 157. X-ray - December 7, 2010
152. Former "Living Presence" Member – December 5, 2010
'So, what will be the NEXT name for the Fellowship of Friends?'
Pathway to Prison or Presence from Behind Bars.
- 158. X-ray - December 7, 2010
or more correctly
Pathway to Prison and Presence from Behind Bars.
- 159. nige - December 7, 2010
157/158 X-ray
More seriously, why is it not possible to even have AN INVESTIGATION into REB's illegal goings-on?…..Nigel
- 160. X-ray - December 8, 2010
I've been told by a person who have been in contact with the FBI and was told by them that they are watching RB closely.
Considering the background of the person, I have no reason to doubt what he've said.
Can't tell you more.
- 161. Linda - December 8, 2010
Re.159 & 160. Has anyone ever tried from the UK side .. there must have been UK students who have been traumatised ?
- 162. X-ray - December 9, 2010
161. Linda – December 8, 2010
I don't know, but I think that one good case like that, in the light of all we know now, would start a chainreaction which could be more effective than a government involvement.
In the main time, I would keep on sending the petition out everywhere.
- 163. another name - December 10, 2010
For all Interested
Alice Wing passed away this week. Memorial will be held in Yuba City on Tuesday 14.00. Details will follow.
- 164. More history needed - December 11, 2010
Still 1540 in the fellowship of friends/ living presence? Anybody knows?
Robert Burton is know by many countries and is watched.
He is a persona non grate in Russia, France, Italy and….who knows.
Time will take care of it?
In the meantime people are still leaving.
- 165. Linda - December 11, 2010
162. X-ray. ok will do. maybe a UK citizen will come forward .. don't know how big the London school is now or even where it is …. will investigate a bit.
- 166. nige - December 11, 2010
165 Linda
I am a UK citizen who spent almost 4 years in the London Center, between January 1978 and December 1981. I then tried to emigrate to California, but, because of THE BIG MONEY PROBLEM, which immigation laws and lawyers, employers and the FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS all impose, I became an illegal immigrant. Having unravelled myself from the 'spirtual grasps' of the FOF and stand on 'good social ground', I ask you , Linda, what can I do for you …..Nigel.
- 167. WhaleRider - December 11, 2010
- 168. X-ray - December 12, 2010
165. Linda – December 11, 2010
All what's needed is a one good case to start a chainreaction.
I believe that people will step forward with a firsthand knowledge of the financial fraud and sexual abuses as the first case will get momentum. Either of two crimes could imprison Robert Burton for as long as he lives.
- 169. Ollie - December 12, 2010
164. More history needed
According to the database, there are 1,519 member in the Fellowship of Friends now. Six months ago, there were 1,529. Since then, 55 left and 45 joined. Those 45 joined in the following places:
Russia and Ukraine:
Moscow: 6
Kiev: 3
Petrozavodsk: 2
Khabarovsk: 1
Mexico City: 7
Monterrey: 3
Ahmedabad: 8
Rajkot: 1
Mumbai: 1
New York: 3
Oregon House, CA: 1
Florence: 2
Athens: 1
Middle East:
Tel Aviv: 1
Istanbul: 1
Beirut: 1
Sao Paolo: 2
Beijing: 1
- 170. McMikey - December 14, 2010
Just a note of encouragement.
For some reason ye olde FoF has chosen to "settle out of court" almost every legal claim brought forth against it.
Even Burton can't unring the bell.
- 171. silentpurr - December 14, 2010
Robert Burton is 'acting the part' of a 'conscious being', but is at the same time, 'identified' with the results of his 'play'.
- 172. Golden Veil - December 15, 2010
Many of us are thinking about the Students [sic] still entangled in Robert Burton's
"Living Presence" web. We think about them and the Prospective Students [sic]
who are somehow not savvy enough to question the strict Fellowship of Friends
We post here in order to publicize the twisted ways of the Fellowship of Friends/
Pathways to Presence/Living Presence cult; a different name but still the same.
Some of us post here as part of our healing process. Those who have suffered in
extreme ways may take years to heal. Thus, they will post for years…
It may take years for some to forgive themselves for what they see now as the
foolhardy decisions they made, the blinders they wore, and the hypocrisy that
they perpetuated, etc.
It is necessary for me to be able to forgive myself and get beyond my feelings of
It was a fun masquerade. It felt comfortable and even safe to have the Fellowship restrictions at one time. It was exciting to feel superior and like I was a special
guest on a esoteric magical mystery tour. I am thinking of those that are
psychologically and/or financially and/or emigration dependent on this crippled
and misguided organization that is, after all, a figment of one very strange man's imagination~ his creative and degenerate ongoing 24 hour theatrical performance, whose nexus is his sexus~ his very own penis.
Keep on posting, folks!
- 173. surelyujest - December 15, 2010
Example of self-delusional lying: reflexively using Robert Burton's system of playing cards to refer to arbitrary divisions of a human being. The king of hearts, the jack of spades, etc. You'll never be free of Burton as long as his fictional "system" of centers remains locked in your psychology.
I have met people as absolutely convinced of the reality of a system built around the concept of aliens, as those absolutely convinced of the reality of the 4th Way. Aliens! But those people are fools, the 4th Way really is true!
- 174. nige - December 16, 2010
169 Ollie
Noticed that the most number of new students were in Russia. Someone posted a while back about dysfunctional families – does REB prey on these Russian students to become a father-figure? Nigel
- 175. Remember... - December 16, 2010
I would advise people not take Ollie's numbers seriously. Who knows if the numbers are correct or not? He shows up on the blog frequently with an official looking stat sheet, but it's entirely possible that his/her task is to create the impression that the numbers remain high, and that the Greater Fellowship and blog have had little effect on Burton's fun and games. In other words, the point is to discourage people from posting. Remember that the road to lies is paved with numbers and statistics. The numbers may be correct, but like anything else emanating from this organization, it's wise to be skeptical.
- 176. Ames Gilbert - December 16, 2010
Golden Veil (146), I wrote this on Thanksgiving 2009 and put it on the blog Dec1.
Linda (151), thank you, and I appreciate your friendship also.
Ollie (169), thanks for the update.
It is sad to see so many Russians and Ukrainians are still joining, despite there being what I understand to be warnings and sad case histories on the Russian language site that is displayed at the top of every page of this blog. The good news is that there is a heck of a lot more information and warnings out there for folks who do due diligence than there ever has been before. But, I know from my own experience that it is easy to fall into the pattern of seeking information that reinforces one's biases; I know I feel more validated/justified if I find others agreeing with my viewpoint. It seems some people just have to go through certain experiences to learn what they need to learn. I can be sorry for them, try to help them, but they are just not open to the information, just as I was not open in my younger days. I wasn't specifically warned, but there were plenty of signs early on if I had cared to follow up on them. For sure, I made a fool of myself.
So be it.
- 177. Golden Veil - December 17, 2010
Yes, Ames…you gave me the idea for a new name:
The Fellowship of Fools
- 178. nigel - December 17, 2010
176 Golden Veil
I thought there was so much psycho-babble going about that it might be named the Fellowship of Freuds!…..Nigel
- 179. nigel - December 17, 2010
Just to remind ourselves of how interfused is the influence of Burton within the group………….
"The course of Robert Burton's life as a spiritual teacher is indistinguishable from the growth and development of the Fellowship of Friends. Robert has worked single-mindedly to create an environment of inspiration at Apollo that is conducive to awakening, and at the same time he has labored to extend his spiritual teachings to interested people around the world. Through the efforts of Robert and his followers, the Fellowship has opened and continues to maintain centers in dozens of cities on every continent. The Fellowship became, and remains to this day, international. "
- 180. Xavier Stewart Dent - December 17, 2010
"I can be sorry for them, try to help them, but they are just not open to the information, just as I was not open in my younger days."
Here's a scene from the 1988 sci-fi film, "They Live." The guy with long hair is a former member of the Fellowship of Friends. He left the school after he found a special pair of sunglasses that helped him see what was actually happening in the FOF. In this scene, he tries to convince his friend (still an FOF member) to put on the sunglasses.
- 183. Associated Press - December 18, 2010
89/153. Associated Press – January 25, 2010
96. 2010:
'The reason the blog has the potential to be so effective is because it is a forum to question and in many cases expose the fraud and corruption that exists inside the Fellowship CULT. If you want to get a taste of the bullshit, read the letter from David Lubbers (springfield) to the fellowship board. You can google "David Springfield letter" and you might find it. The fellowship has gone through great lengths to get it removed from every possible outlet that might reproduce it.'
Wikileaks, the site that hosted the 'Lawyer Letter,' has reluctantly suspended all other operations except for fund raising to continue their work.
The david-springfield-letter-2009.doc is currently unavailable. Here is summary:
'Censored Fellowship of Friends cult letter from former legal council David Springfield, 2009
From Wikileaks
Released June 12, 2009
The Fellowship of Friends is a "intellectual" fourth-way cult founded in the 1970s by its current leader Robert Earl Burton[1][2][3]. It claims chapters in many countries, including 10 chapters in the United States[4].
This file contains a copy of a letter sent to the members of the Board of Directors of the Fellowship of Friends apparently by their former legal counsel. The letter outlines many illegal activities of the Fellowship of Friends and omissions of oversight by said Board of Directors, and possible consequences if these matters come to the attention of the authorities.
The document was initially released on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, but was wholly censored by the publisher WordPress.com after it received a claim of copyright infringement under the US DMCA.
A version of it was then made available on the Internet Archive (archive.org), but it too has been removed.
The letter refers to fraud obtaining religious visas, fraudulent accounting, inurements to the chief minister (Robert Earl Burton), tax evasion, and so on. It may be of interest to agencies within the US government and the governments of other countries.
Interested parties can call Ames Gilbert at (530) 272-4775 (within U.S.A.).'
Because of the current issues with Wikileaks publications, mirror servers all over the internet have been proliferated to protect the released materials from being suppressed. Consequently, the material containing the 'David Springfield letter' to Fellowship of Friends Board of Directors (david-springfield-letter-2009.doc) has been proliferated, too.
For a limited time, david-springfield-letter-2009.doc may be available here:
Bad news may be that you have to download it with a huge amount of other material to the extent of 15176 MB (15.176 GB), if you have the hard drive space for it and the bandwidth, when the file is only 49 Kb. Also, no guarantee it is what you want as the download has not been tried and verified. If you try it, please report back here your results.
- 184. Xavier Stewart Dent - December 18, 2010
Here is an excerpt…
"It is my feeling that what occurred over the last three weeks is a combination of crime, gross carelessness and ignorance of almost all Board members.
"In my opinion, serious crimes have likely been committed and are possibly continuing to be committed by current members on the Board. This should be addressed immediately. As I wrote about in my letter of November 6, 2007, the requirement of legal compliance and checks and balances within our organization needs urgent attention. The Board has been for some time but a passive "rubber-stamp" board without active or meaningful oversight. This almost complete inaction may create the impression of the [our beloved school] as a criminal organization…."
There is much more.
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