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NewsForge: KDE on Windows Philosophers Debate
NewsForge is running a Platonic dialog considering the eternal question: "Should KDE be ported to Windows?". The voices of Socrates, Glaucon and Thrasymachus present the various arguments for and against the issue, making for an easy to understand presentation of the various aspects of this classic debate that will likely pop up again with KDE 4.
Pointless Argument
Arguing about whether or not KDE should be ported to Windows is rather pointless. If it's going to happen it will happen, and if it doesn't then it doesn't. Unlike proprietary desktops, KDE does not have the authority to tell KDE developers what to do. Even if every member of the core team thought it was a bad idea, they still couldn't stop someone from doing it. Or vice versa.
Personally I don't think it should be ported (though I would like to see a KHTML based browser available for Windows), but my opinion doesn't matter. KDE isn't a dictatorship. Heck, it ain't even a democracy, because the minority can freely ignore the majority.
By Brandybuck at Thu, 2005/01/06 - 6:00am
Re: Pointless Argument
of course it isn't a dictatorship, and certainly if someone is willing to spend their time doing this it will happen.
it does not make this, or any other, discussion pointless, however. openly discussing things is how people come to:
o Understand each other
these are all very important dynamics when it comes to the health and continued progress of a project such as KDE.
the irony is that you say there's no point in discussing if you can't control people, and that the project doesn't have control over the developers. and yet the project stays on its feet without having to control everyone due to discussion.
but when you say "even if every member of the core team thought it was a bad idea, they still couldn't stop someone from doing it" you are both wrong and right. the project certainly _does_ have the ability, right and even responsibility to offer some guidance over what goes into KDE's CVS and ships with it. so a person can do anything they wish with KDE within the rights of the licenses used (GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc), but the project as a collective whole says whether or not it becomes part of KDE proper.
as a side note, separating "the KDE project" and "the KDE developers" is a false dichotomy. they are one and the same.
By Aaron J. Seigo at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: Pointless Argument
"it does not make this, or any other, discussion pointless, however."
I didn't say "discussion", I said "argue." Slight difference :-)
By Brandybuck at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: Pointless Argument
> I didn't say "discussion", I said "argue."
discussion, debate, argument, ... 6 of one, half dozen of another?
i'll be the first to admit that a lot of the discussion that's happened in the broader (read: user) community has not been overly useful to determining direction. when i first broached this topic in my blog last year i was speaking to my fellow developers, but the topic was quickly picked up and moved into the realm of the user community and taken as if i were addressing everyone. (note to self: start labeling blog entries with who the intended audience is.) while i'm sure it's been entertaining for people "on the outside" to toss around the conversation in armchair quarterback fashion, that part of the discussion likely hasn't had much impact on the direction of efforts of those actually involved with the project.
the conversation/argument/whatever _within_ the developer community is important and not useless. it may be a bit odd that these discussions happen in public, but that's because the logistical structure of open source is "inside-out" compared to more traditional models.
the benefit i see to pieces like the one Tom has written is that it serves as something of a summary of the arguments put forward by various people thus far. these are useful as touchstones when it comes to these discussions since they can extend over a good amount of time and be spread out widely on the internet. summaries bring all the value, whatever it may be, into one place.
unrelated to the above posts, here's another piece of irony that this whole experience brought with it for me:
a lot of people have said to me that i can't dictate agendas to other people[1], and therefore shouldn't have written that blog entry and that we this thread should be dropped. i suppose it's ok to dictate as long as you're the dictator? ;-)
[1] btw, "dictating" was never my goal or intention. i was attempting to open discussion on the matter. seems to have been successful. ;)
By Aaron J. Seigo at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: Pointless Argument
Um, I don't think the minority can freely ignore the majority. Obivously anyone can freely make their own project, but it can't be called KDE anymore.
By Ian Monroe at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Bollocks 'R' Us
Come on, do we need this sort of pretentious crap? Does it really further our cause?
Yes, Windows is a dog, sucking innovation/dollars out of the IT industry - but it is a very simple story to tell, and we don't need to bring in obscure Greek philosophers..
By Richard Dale at Thu, 2005/01/06 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
I've seen this debate over and over again, in many forums. This article presented it from all sides in a novel and entertaining way. I thought it was a fun read, and that's why I submitted it to the dot.
What is this "cause" you refer to?
By Evan "JabberWok... at Thu, 2005/01/06 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
First, let me say that I enjoyed the form of the article. It is refreshing to see cool philosophers discussing instead of heated arguments. But I find the debate quite restricted. It is just a reharsal of what Aaron has already said in his blog and on kde-promo.
However, I find that there is a lot more that what has been presented in this article:
- as a linux geek working in enterprise desktop, I am forced to use windows and I would enjoy using KDE, independantely of convincing anybody of the value of linux and fre software. So, my pleasure is sacrificed for a greater cause. That's ok but I want to remind it. Having KDE running on windows would allow me to contribute from my work place...
- as a developer, I like my applications to be used by the maximum number of people. So I would like those users on windows to use it too (which is why I use PyQt).
I also found false assumptions:
Finally, one argument is bullshit:
What KDE will not have is interoperability with .NET and stuff like that. But you know what: plenty of other windows applications won't either. And despite what microsoftee says, it does not bother the users. If you look at popular applications on windows like winamp or quick time, they have a completely different interface than typical applications, they do not use any microsoft technologies and still many users use them happily.
So my conclusion is that the philosophers have missed at least two arguments, used false assumption and made false claims. It does not make them rank very high as philosophers and with such poor material, their conclusion is void.
And you know what ? It does not matter because everybody already has its own opinion priori to reading the article and I doubt that it will change.
By Philippe Fremy at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
> I do not develop software to spread the message of freedom
too many people are reading this into it because they are used to "Freedom" being the frame of reference for these conversations, but it isn't the frame of reference here. i wish people would stop reading politics into this discussion that are not really there. it does, after all, help to understand the discussion if one understands what the topic of discussion is.
my original article was 100% about calculating the costs associated with these developments when it comes to mid-to-long term user base, developer base and utility. nothing about "Freedom" politics.
so, to repeat one more time so this is painfully clear: this is not about Free Software politics.
> what you develop for windows XP, 98 or 95 will always run on
how many people run a win95 app on XP because they want a win 95 app? how many would take the XP version over the 95 version given feature parity? i know the only reason we keep certain win98 apps around here is because we have no choice (e.g. they were never upgraded post-win98)
i also suggest you look at the history of Novell producs on windows, Lotus1-2-3 or DR-DOS. you don't have to make an app un-runnable by sacrificing backwards compatibility to effectively break the application or make it irrelevant within it's given niche.
> It does not matter because everybody already has its own
glad to see you're a mentally flexible individual ;-)
but seriously: how do you think opinions get formed? how does a project run by community (versus by dictatorship or by committee) coordinate itself?
it isn't through silence. it isn't through people acting as lone wolves. and it certainly isn't through defeatist attitudes that boil down to "why bother because you can't change anything."
By Aaron J. Seigo at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
> so, to repeat one more time so this is painfully clear: this is not about Free Software politics.
It was developed that way in the philosopher talk.
> how many people run a win95 app on XP because they want a win 95 app?
> how many would take the XP version over the 95 version given feature parity?
We were talking about the burden of maintaining KDE on windows XP vs on the future version of windows. So, if KDE is available in a more advanced fashion that windows XP, they will use it, else, they will use the windows XP version. But not that is even granted. As I sais, many simple users prefer to keep their habbits than upgrading.
> i know the only reason we keep certain win98 apps around here is because we have no choice
So ? What's wrong with that ? The question was whether we should make these windows 98 applications available or not. I am still not convinced we should not.
Besides, if I remember correctly, windows XP is only 30% of the running windows version at the moment and windows 98 is still about 30% of the existing windows. So KDE on windows would probably last a lot longer than any version of Qt.
> you don't have to make an app un-runnable by sacrificing backwards
Could you be a bit more specific ? If I remember correctly Dr Dos was made uncompatible. I am not familiar with the others.
If you are trying to say that Microsoft might kill our product by cloning it, like they did for netscape or real player, I don't think it is a good argument: windows provides most of what KDE does, so people are not going to use KDE just for some convenience around the corner. There ought to be for them a better reason, like "I like kmail better", or "it is just fun to use" than "I use it because Microsoft does not provide equivalent features app but if they did, I would switch immediately back to microsoft".
> and it certainly isn't through defeatist attitudes that boil down to "why bother because you can't change anything."
Well, I am glad to see that you are more optmistic than me. I have witnessed than free software people hold on to their opinions beyound reason. We do not act much out of reason and it has a lot of good consequences and a few bad.
I also think that opinion do form quickly, so the lengthy the debate, the less convincing it is [sorty for my poor english]. If you want your message to get through, shorter sentences with clear points should help.
So correct me if I am wrong, your point is: KDE on windows is bad because:
By Philippe Fremy at Sat, 2005/01/08 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
"so, to repeat one more time so this is painfully clear: this is not about Free Software politics."
Well, it isn't for _you_. When writing that article, as has been pointed out, I did want to approach it from that point of view. Of course that's not to say that many of the arguments rely on that assumption... as you've gone to some length to say, you advocate some of my arguments _without_ buying into the free software issues.
I just thought I'd clear that up :-)
By Tom at Sun, 2005/01/09 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
Next time, we'll be sure to try and book some more well known Greek philosophers.
By Anonymous at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: Bollocks 'R' Us
What exactly is your point? Whatever opinion you might hold on porting KDE to Windows, the article is entertaining and well-written.
Does your anti-intellectualism further anyone's cause?
By Anonymous at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
a question
Porting KDE to Windows would require porting of Qt as well, wouldn't it? If it would, I am definitely against it -- for the very practical reason that if Windows gets a Free version of Qt, and Trolltech goes out of business because of it, we won't have anyone to develop the toolkit for us. That would suck.
By Gábor Lehel at Thu, 2005/01/06 - 6:00am
Re: a question
I don't think it would be such a big deal if the windows libs were released under gpl, qt doesn't make money with free project buying licences to port their apps to windows ( i don't even know if it is possible considering the gpl )
A lgpl version would be more tragic
By polux at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
I am assuming there is no GPL version of Win32 Qt because of a lesson learned by Trolltech when they released QtNC. Note that there was only really one public release of QtNC, and that was in version 2.x. I am assuming that the bean counters saw something they didn't like, and that is why there continues the current situation on Win32.
Now we can argue that windows developers don't "get" OSS, and we can argue that "Trolltech's business model is all wrong" but at the end of the day the fact remains that it is probably not financially prudent for them to have a free as in beer version on Win32. Welcome to what we call capitalism kids.
By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
>Now we can argue that windows developers don't "get" OSS
I think this would be wrong because:
I think the real problem is like Carewolf has posted in this thread:
"The problem is that Trolltech makes most of their money from companies who use Qt for internal applications, not applications that are released to end-users."
But if Trolltech don't like that people can do what they wan't on their computer than you could argue that Trolltech don't "get" Free Software.
But i think the overall question is:
If they would have more customers who develop software for their customers, than there would be no problem to release a GPL Qt for windows. Because this would nothing change for their customers.
Another question is:
By pinky at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
>But i think the overall question is:
>Why Trolltech makes most of their money from companies who use Qt for >internal applications and don't get many customers who develop software for >their customers? Why Trolltech can't make their Toolkit interesting for more >software companies who develop software for other people and not for their >own use?
Because it is almost impossible (READ REALLY F*CKING HARD AND WILL WASTE YEARS OF YOUR DEVELOPERS LIVES) to ship a C++ application external to your company. Now there are ways around it (ie ship all your shared libs, static linkage, build for every possible permutation, etc...) In short virgina, yer screwed.
Now if you are doing everything internal, *bing* you control all your platforms and all your libs. Distribution is a cakewalk and you go on with your day.
Welcome to life with C++... (FYI, Java is only slightly better, but then you are stuck with swing in all its glory)
By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
> Because it is almost impossible (READ REALLY F*CKING HARD AND WILL WASTE YEARS OF YOUR DEVELOPERS LIVES)
You mean cross-platform apps, right? Because we don't have any problems to ship our C++ Windows application to our customers.
By Christian Loose at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
> You mean cross-platform apps, right? Because we don't have any problems to
Yes, if you are on a single platform you are okay, or if you use VC6. The pain happens if you want to support XP and 2k with VC7 and up.... At least Qt links to system level stuff so if you write a Qt app with VC6 you don't need to ship anything other than Qt's dll... but from there it gets worse.
/me mumbles something about msvcrt-flavor-of-the-week.dll.... and wanders off.
By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
>Because it is almost impossible to ship a C++ application external to your company. Now there are ways around it (ie ship all your shared libs, static linkage, build for every possible permutation, etc...) In short virgina, yer screwed.
But which language were used for all the apps in the windows world? I think mostly C++ (maybe VC++). And as far as i remember, if i had to install a program on windows it's normal that there will be installed more than one file and a lot of these files are dlls. So this is not abnormal.
By pinky at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
Most software last I heard (about 95%) is custom developed for internal use only. From my personal experience I would put it at least at 80%. These are programs that companies pay to have custom developed only for them that are never used outside that company.
I think that is what trolltech worries about. If there is a qt for windows that is gpl then you can safetly use it with the app gpled and nobody will ever see it outside that company and thus you comply with the gpl and don't pay trolltech anything. The problem I see with that is that if you spend a large ammount of money building a custom app you would want support for the libraries in it and they would want to be able to call trolltech anyways for help.
Having your developers spend hours or day figuring out something that a 10 minutes phone call can solve is just not very good from a time or money standpoint however I can see why trolltech is doing what it is.
I also don't know how long it might be if ever before someone makes a gpl qt for windows that is the qt/x11 version ported over that still needs to use an x server. I suspect that it has very few contributors and it requires a lot of work and qt is a moving target. For an example of thing kind of python look at cpython (the default thing that most people just call python) and jython the version of python that runs on the java vm. The jython and cpython version numbers mean the same thing so jython 2.1 is equiv to cpython 2.1 . The problem is that jython is at 2.1 and python is at 2.4 . Jython is pretty much about 2 years behind python for development and that is just a port also. The problem is that not enough people really care about it. I am sure we could find other examples also, just because something can be ported doesn't mean it will be and doesn't mean it will work very well simply because not enough people care about it.
By Kosh at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: a question
Have you seen this: http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net ?
By Colin at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
who cares
if trolltech make a GPL Qt for windows I don't think its biggest clients such as photoshop and opera will use it, they will still pay for the non-free version because they won't release their software under the GPL right? So I guess GPLing Qt on windows shouldn't be that big loss for Qt but I may be wrong :)
By Joe at Thu, 2005/01/06 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
The problem is that Trolltech makes most of their money from companies who use Qt for internal applications, not applications that are released to end-users. In this case the companies can use a GPL product and still keep the source-code to themselves because they are the only end-users.
By carewolf at Thu, 2005/01/06 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
are yo sure about that?
By Joe at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
>plus I guess most country other than US don't pay licences for internal application.
Does this mean also private persons don't have to buy a license for proprietary software if they use it "internal"?
By pinky at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
No. It's a GPL matter.
On the other hand, proprietary EULAs usually say you must be a licensee in order to use their development tools, then the EULA can require payment per runtime copy or not, in the first case you always need to pay per seat, distributing it outside or not.
Win32 Qt is in the second case, you pay $1500 per developer, but then you have no limits AFAIK.
One more thing: LGPL is less restrictive and allow to link LGPL libs against closed apps, in order to allow GNU platform becoming more popular. That's why Unix Qt is released under GPL, as they want to get some cash first, and be popular later.
By Shulai at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
I might be splitting hairs here...
> If x develops software based on GPL software (Like Unix version of Qt,
Well, yes. But this means that you only can keep your app un-GPL'ed if only the original developer uses it. As soon as you gove it to somebody else, (say, your co-worker, or the company that paid your for their in-house app), that's distributing, and hence it must be distributed in compliance with the GPL.
Now, the point is this: The GPL only requires you to make the source code accessible to people who receive the software. That is: If A gives an app to B, A has to give B the source code (either ship it along, or upon request). But C, who never receives the software, has no right to its source code, either. So, I can develop an in-house application - even for a customer, not for myself - based on GPL software an be all fine and dandy if only I hand over the source code along whith the app, too, which is pretty standard fare in these circles. I don't have to make the source code - or the app - available to the world.
By Annno v. Heimburg at Sat, 2005/01/08 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
forget the copyright-law, most countries don't respect them, that's what I was trying to say. The only license the smb I work for is the windows one and they got it with the coputer so. and this is in france. so I suppose other countries don't even pay the windows license.
By Joe at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
Wrong, you can use a free software tool to create proprietary apps.
By Brush up on you... at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
With a GPL Qt you can't develop proprietary Software, because if you derive from a Qt class in your application you create a derivate work of the original code and than it has to be GPL licensed, too.
By pinky at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
Only if you are directly modifying the source of the original project. Since you aren't, and especially with PyQT are only classing from the already compiled binary... you can make a proprietary piece of software.
By Aaron Krill at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
Sorry, you are completely wrong and pinky is correct. You don't even need to derive a class - make any call to the GPL'ed API and your application must have a GPL compatible license. It doesn't make any difference whether it's in C++ or Python.
By Phil Thompson at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
So, following your reasoning, there can be no commercial Linux applications (since they all make calls to the GPL'ed API that is the kernel)? That sounds like nonsence to me.
By Andre Somers at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
No applications makes library calls to the linux-kernel. They use the hardware system call interface.
By carewolf at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
And Linus has actually explicit stated that the GPL does not apply to the use of Linux public API.
By Morty at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
As others have pointed out, the kernel API is something different.
Why do you think there is the LGPL and the GPL? Why do you think Trolltech (and I) chose the GPL rather than the LGPL? Answer: to force people to buy a commercial version if they wanted to release non-GPL applications.
By Phil Thompson at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
I'm not so sure. If I for example would develop a application around a apstract warpper and than develop a wrapper implementation in qt, windows etc. as library I must GPL the wrapper implementation(not the wrapper) but not the application which is only calling the wrapper. Its because the wrapper is not derived from qt. Its like the nvidia module in the kernel. And there is no exception for the GPL in the kernel for binary modules. I'm not a lawyer so I'm not 100% sure but it would be very hard to force the people to GPL the application. Maybe the user which is using the qt wrapper implemention is breaking the law but not the developer.
By Marco Bubke at Sat, 2005/01/08 - 6:00am
Re: who cares
AFAIK its not about calling, its about linking and deriving. Otherwise you could not use the linux kernel.
By Marco Bubke at Sat, 2005/01/08 - 6:00am
KDE 4 win is great ;-))
By X0R at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
By Andy at Fri, 2005/01/07 - 6:00am
Konquerer development
Can you imagine the number of developpers a windows konquerer or koffice could attract? Look out, openoffice and mozilla atract all development because they are the biggest project. They are big because they are also on windows.
By Geert at Sat, 2005/01/08 - 6:00am
Re: Konquerer development
Did you think that KDE on Windows may be more popular than KDE on Linux? :-/
By mkkot at Sat, 2005/01/08 - 6:00am
Philosophy and code
Everybody here is talking about the user base, philosophy, qt license (the n+1 time) and all that. But... is this tecnically aceptable?. Qt is OS-agnostic, but KDE is hardcore unix-centric. The real question here are: can you make a konqueror-setup.exe to install konqueror in a easy way? how dependant is KDE libs to dlopen, libc, glibc and other unix-only stuff? is the code going to grow to support special window cases? some (more) abstraction layers are going to hurt performance?
May be the port can take 50 (mythicals :) man months to get some hundred windows users, some dozens devs. Then the effort is better used bugs.kde.org, or polishing some existing apps (koffice or kdevelop some of them), or making some news.
is good from the code level?
By peroxid at Sun, 2005/01/09 - 6:00am
a kde port to windows IS being worked on...
on http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/
they already developed a 100% gpl port of qt3.3 for windows.
as far as i am concerned trolltech can go bankrupt tomorrow, they have signed an agreement with kde, that in the event of bankruptcy or change of ownership of trolltech or major changes in development plans, qt will be released to the public under a bsd-style-license.
By Hannes Hauswedell at Sun, 2005/01/09 - 6:00am
Re: a kde port to windows IS being worked on...
> hey have signed an agreement with kde, that in the event of bankruptcy or change of ownership of trolltech or major changes in development plans, qt will be released to the public under a bsd-style-license.
That's wrong. The sole criteria are continued releases of an Open Source edition.
By Anonymous at Sun, 2005/01/09 - 6:00am
Re: a kde port to windows IS being worked on...
i am sorry, thats what i meant. just wanted to point out that bankruptcy or change of ownership are explicitely named as possible reasons for an end of free qt releases.
By Hannes Hauswedell at Mon, 2005/01/10 - 6:00am
Re: a kde port to windows IS being worked on...
> we dont need some company to develop a toolkit for us, we are the people, we are the community
Care to help me to identify you as part of the KDE community?
> kde replacements for the qt-tools (kdevdesigner instead of qt-designer aso
You are aware that kdevdesigner is basically Qt Designer?
By Anonymous at Sun, 2005/01/09 - 6:00am
Re: a kde port to windows IS being worked on...
> Care to help me to identify you as part of the KDE community?
actually i consider anyone working with or on kde part of the community. i dont know what your elite criteria are or if i fit them... i do code opensource programs (in qt/for kde?), of which some will hopefully be useful to the community. talking about identity, you didnt even post your name....
> You are aware that kdevdesigner is basically Qt Designer?
well right now they are pretty much the same thing thats right, but there is one difference: kdevdesigner is not maintained by qt, but by community developers, which is what all of my above post was about, if you read it...
By Hannes Hauswedell at Mon, 2005/01/10 - 6:00am


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Garden With Color and Flair
A designer brings his sense of style to the garden
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Fearlessness is a fine quality in a gardener. When nature itself is your canvas and creating your own place in it is your main aesthetic purpose, it is good to have a well-developed sense of style and a bold hand with color. John Rufenacht, an interior designer in Kansas City, brought his confidence, experience, and sense of humor to bear when he carved out a clearing in the woods at Evening Place, his weekend home near Clinton, Missouri, which he has owned since 2003. John's design sensibilities come sparkling through in his garden.
Although he designs interiors for many clients with large homes, "I love great small spaces," he says. "We all gravitate to them, to our own little nests." The designer's home, a square, three-story stone tower, is the centerpiece of the one-acre property.
John drew up the plans for the buildings and grounds himself. "I really did it almost like an interior," he says. The garden is in large part defined by the relationship of the house to the graceful outbuildings. A small structure dedicated to a library of books on plants and design—with a sofa for naps—is John's favorite place in the summer for its view of the garden through wide-open French doors. A handsome English conservatory anchors one side of the courtyard behind the house. Interesting materials and meticulous craftsmanship make each building a work of art. A stone chapel with stained-glass windows by a Missouri artist is nestled into the trees at the edge of the property. John also added a fantastic, whimsical bright red gypsy wagon, made to order as a luxuriously appointed little guest cottage.
Red flowers gleam everywhere in the dappled light under tall oaks and hickories. "Red has always been my favorite color, and it's the only true neutral color," John says. "I think it goes with literally everything." Ruffled red mandevilla blooms in a never-ending show in the courtyard, accompanied by flashing trumpets of scarlet amaryllis. John picks up the beat with red-and-white pillows and deftly adds splashes of contrasting yellow here and there.
The design has more than a touch of formality here in the country, but John is relaxed about it all. He has surrounded himself with comfortable spaces, colorful plants, and furnishings he loves.
"It has been a real test plot," he says. He carved out a deep flowerbed on one side of the library, filling it with daylilies, salvias, coneflowers, lilies, and other sun-loving perennials. A rich and varied tapestry of hostas, hellebores, epimediums, and ferns lights up the shade along a path under the trees. John constantly adds new plants to the collection.
"As an interior designer, of course you are impatient—I'm terribly impatient," he says. But he enjoys the process of watching his garden grow and change. Trumpet vines now romp across the rustic pergola over the back porch. Old-fashioned hollyhocks come up in different places every year.
"It would be sad if the garden looked exactly the same year after year," he admits. Evening Place is named for the idea that each day really begins in the evening, when the cares of one day fade and the possibilities of the next take shape. As the light fades, "You set your heart and mind toward the next day," John muses. In this beautiful place, the twilight hour is certainly a time to savor.
Interior designer: John Rufenacht Assoc. Inc., 5013 Wyandotte St., Suite 1 North, Kansas City, MO 64112; 816/561-7795, rufenachtinteriors.com.
Photography: Matthew Benson
Daybed (discontinued): Restoration Hardware, 800/910-9836, restorationhardware.com.
Hearty Pink Mandevillas
A vigorous mandevilla vine produces ruffled crimson flowers all summer long.
Espalier Garden
The garden is made up of a number of gracefully defined "rooms." Trained apple trees sketch boundaries of this espalier garden. Red cushions on the benches add vibrant color to the lush garden.
Work in Progress
The pots on the shelves show John's work on container plantings in the ever-evolving garden.
Bright Amaryllis
A bright red amaryllis proves irresistible to a butterfly.
Entry Bridge
A stone lion guards the approach to the tower.
Picturesque Library
Old-fashioned flowers make a colorful living quilt at the edge of the library.
Colorful Shelves
John's gardening books are right at hand in the garden's little library building.
Wheel-Like Window
Birdcages and other collectibles add interest to the library.
On the Wing
A butterfly alights on the grille of John's vintage car.
Lush Hostas Behind the Library
The shady area behind the library is an ideal spot for growing hostas.
Courtyard "Living Room"
Enclosed on all sides, this area is furnished like a gracious living room. "I don't know of any garden that is interesting without some sort of structure," John says. "Within that, you can be as free as you want, but it takes some sort of structure to balance the freedom."
Espaliered apple trees add structure.
Courtyard Cabana
The cabana contributes to the festive atmosphere of the courtyard.
Cascading Succulents
Succulents add texture and pattern.
Courtyard Sitting Area
The symmetry of the twin chairs flanking the table gives a hint of order.
Gypsy Wagon Guesthouse
Who wouldn't love to stay in this charming little gypsy wagon fitted out as a guesthouse?
Gypsy wagon: Ozark Wagon Sales Co., 877/785-8469, ozarkwagonsalescompany.com.
Gerbera Daisies
A pot of Gerbera daisies smiles in the sunlight on the wagon's porch.
Designer and His Dog
John Rufenacht keeps his '53 MG at Evening Place. Waldo, his schnauzer, often hops in for a ride.
Fit for a King
Crowns on the lions bring a smile.
Lending a Hand
Attention to details like this one makes the garden stylish at every turn.
Seeing Red
Shades of scarlet, crimson, and other reds are repeated throughout the garden.
John's license plate refers to the name of his getaway, "Evening Place."
Pretty Pergola
Terra cotta pots at varying levels give this entry area an almost Tuscan feel.
Classic Statuary
Statuary throughout the garden nods to its underlying classicism.
Hanging Lanterns
Lanterns hung unusually low are charmingly unexpected.
White Hydrangea
White flowers help to tone down the exuberant floral palette.
Stone Chapel
The stone chapel has an air of serenity.
Wagon Wheel
Rusticity befits this rural hideaway.
John's lively sense of humor is reflected in the treasures that dot the grounds.
Garden Details
• Location: Clinton, Missouri, a 19th-century town in western Missouri.
• Conditions: Situated in a clearing in the woods in Zone 6, the garden has heavy clay soil that has been amended with lots of compost. Summers are hot and steamy; winters are cold but not bitter.
• Highlights: Boldly colored perennials, a rich tapestry of shade-loving plants, and a bright red gypsy wagon/guesthouse provide many eye-catching features.

subset: commoncrawl


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TUSCALOOSA | With a unanimous vote of approval by the City Council on Tuesday, an Atlanta-based company is proceeding with its third downtown development project within the past 12 months. This new, $11.5 million development by Chance Partners is expected to be a four-story building with townhome-style apartments, single-story apartments and retail space on the bottom floor. Construction is expected to begin on Monday and be complete July 31.
TUSCALOOSA | With a unanimous vote of approval by the City Council on Tuesday, an Atlanta-based company is proceeding with its third downtown development project within the past 12 months.
This new, $11.5 million development by Chance Partners is expected to be a four-story building with townhome-style apartments, single-story apartments and retail space on the bottom floor.
Construction is expected to begin on Monday and be complete July 31.
With its location within the city's Downtown Overlay District, the City Council was required to give final approval to the plans, layout and materials that Chance Partners will use. Despite Mayor Walt Maddox's wish that the project, which has plans for 35 percent brick on the exterior, feature more brick in order to look more like downtown buildings, the project was met with no resistance.
However, Christopher Kritzman of Chance Partners said the company is willing to consider the mayor's request.
"We're certainly open to adding more brick," Kritzman told the City Council. "We want to make certain that the projects we develop ... are properties you are proud of."
The project, tentatively named Green Bear because of its location, is planned for a 1.4-acre site at the intersection of Greensboro Avenue and Paul W. Bryant Drive. This is the former location of Mike & Ed's BBQ and the site of a proposed condominium project that never broke ground for construction.
Councilman Bobby Howard, who represents District 1 where each of Chance Partners' projects have been developed, said he is hopeful that this new project will drive additional development into West Tuscaloosa.
"I think it's wonderful," said Howard of Chance Partners' third development. "We're slowing moving westward, and I look forward when we can cross Greensboro Avenue (with new developments).
"This is the westward growth we have looked for and anticipated for years."
The development company's first foray into the Tuscaloosa market was announced in January 2011, when it gained approval from the City Council for construction of the $5 million Townhomes at Metal Works. This five-unit, 15-bedroom complex, built adjacent to the Metal Works Retail Center, where Jim 'N Nicks Bar-B-Q is housed, is at 100 percent lease capacity for this and next year.
The company's next project was the $8.25 million Boulevard Lofts, an 18-unit, 46-bed development that was approved for construction on the former parking lot across University Boulevard from City Hall in March. This mixed-use development, which has Which Wich Superior Sandwiches on the bottom floor, is also at full lease capacity for this year and the next, Kritzman said.
Green Bear, with 50 units containing 119 beds along with 3,750 feet of retail space on the bottom floor, is part of Chance Partners' five-year plan to invest in Tuscaloosa. He explained that the company's philosophy did not favor a single development, but rather multiple developments based on the relationships the company makes within the community and City Hall.
"We have a corporate mantra: Changing the world one building at a time," Kritzman said. "We don't like to come into market, develop a 1,000-bed building and leave."
John McConnell, director of the city's planning and development services, said City Hall has been willing to work at the breakneck pace set by Chance Partners.
This willingness to conduct inspections outside of the average workday or make additional efforts to not slow the project's development is part of the city's philosophy, but it's also a result of working with a quality developer on more than one occasion.
"When you work with the same designer and developers over time, you learn how to work with each other," McConnell said. "These guys have been real good to work with."
McConnell also said that Chance Partners' return for a third project is a reflection of the city's investments into the renewal of downtown Tuscaloosa.
Since its beginning, city officials said a renewed downtown could be assisted by public funds, but it was private dollars that would make it complete.
"They know the investments we've made downtown make it really attractive to people wanting to live downtown," McConnell said. "But in a town like Tuscaloosa, there's always some apprehension to being the first one to step out and make a significant investment.
"I think this group is taking those first steps and I believe others will follow."
Kritzman said it was clear to Chance Partners that the city's overhaul of its downtown area provided a solid foundation to private investment.
"We're big believers in the downtown redevelopment and the downtown area. We think the city has done a great job of renewing this area," Kritzman said. "We thought there was a fantastic base already in downtown Tuscaloosa, and we saw one key component that we thought was missing to having a vibrant downtown."
The component, Kritzman said, is a lack of nice, quality living spaces.
And with the company's insistence on bringing condominium-style units — hardwood floors, elevated ceilings, stainless steel appliances — to the lease market, it has found the interest that it was hoping for.
"We have a lot of interested folks who are looking to lease these spots," Kritzman said. "And it's not just us, but the residents of Tuscaloosa as well, are realizing the transformation of downtown that's taking place and they want to be a part of it."
Reach Jason Morton at firstname.lastname@example.com or 205-722-0200.


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Speaker profile: Joseph G. Lehman
Joseph G. Lehman is president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, an independent, nonprofit research and educational institute in Michigan. The Mackinac Center is the largest of more than 50 affiliated think tanks that focus primarily on state economic policy.
Lehman first joined the Mackinac Center in 1995. He later became vice president for communications at the Cato Institute in Washington, D.C., before returning to the Mackinac Center as its executive vice president. He became president in 2008.
Lehman's commentary on public policy has been carried by The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, National Public Radio, National Journal, National Review, Investor's Business Daily, Wired magazine, and nearly every daily Michigan newspaper.
He has addressed audiences at the National Conference of State Legislatures annual meeting, the Detroit Regional Chamber's annual Mackinac Policy Conference, and gatherings of economists and policy experts in Latin America, Africa and Asia.
He is a director of the Legislative Education Action Drive Foundation and Parents in Charge, which advance school choice, and an advisory board member of the Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity.
Lehman is a leader among state-based public policy experts. In 2013 the State Policy Network recognized him with its Roe Award for leadership, innovation and accomplishments in public policy. He has trained more than 600 think tank executives from 47 states and 47 countries in strategic planning, communications and fundraising.
Prior to his public policy career, Lehman was an engineer and project manager for nine years at The Dow Chemical Co. He graduated from the University of Illinois College of Engineering and is a registered professional engineer.
Lehman and his wife, Karen, are the founders of Midland County Habitat for Humanity. He twice received the Dow Chemical Vice President's Award for Community Service. He is an ordained deacon in the Presbyterian Church in America.


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Authorities are searching for a 13-year-old boy who disappeared early Monday from a Vallecito home.
Dylan Redwine of Colorado Springs went missing between 7:30 and 11:30 a.m. from the 2300 block of County Road 500, just north of Vallecito Reservoir.
He is described as 5 feet tall, 105 pounds with medium-length blond hair and blue eyes.
A postal worker possibly saw the boy Monday on County Road 501, near Vallecito, and two rescue workers may have seen the boy Tuesday afternoon, said Dan Bender, spokesman with the La Plata County Sheriffs Office.
Both sightings are unconfirmed, and, in both cases, the boy ran from rescue workers up a hill in the Vallecito area, Bender said.
Were assuming at this point it may be Dylan eluded searchers, he said. Were leaning toward his being a runaway.
A court order gave Dylans father visitation rights over the Thanksgiving holiday, Bender said. Dylan arrived Sunday from Colorado Springs.
The boys father last saw him at 7:30 a.m. Monday. He noticed the boy was gone at 11:30 a.m., Bender said. The father notified the boys mother, Elaine Redwine, who came to Durango with other family members to assist with the search.
La Plata County Search and Rescue members searched for Dylan Monday night in areas off County Road 500. Search and Rescue was pulled out before dark Tuesday. Bender said without the pressure from searchers, Dylan might be encouraged to go to a friends house for the night.
Residents have expressed an interest in assisting with the search. They are being asked to search their properties and areas of Vallecito they are familiar with, Bender said. Until four months ago, Dylan lived in Vallecito, so authorities have been notifying friends who live in the area.
Bayfield schools are closed this week for the holiday, but the Sheriffs Office asked the school district to send out a notification to students homes to notify them of the missing boy.
Authorities are not sure if the boy was upset and ran away or if other factors are at play.
At this time, were exploring all possibilities, Bender said.
It is unknown what clothing he was wearing, but he may have been carrying a backpack.
Apparently he had a black Hurley backpack when he arrived, and the father stated it was not at the house, Bender said.
Anyone with information about Redwines whereabouts is asked to call La Plata County Dispatch Center at 385-2900.


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Clear Cases
by Copic
Clear plastic cases available for both Copic Markers and Copic Sketch Markers. Holds 12 markers.
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Average User Rating: Based on (1 Review)
josh b. from phoenix, AZ says:
this small copic case is awesome for traveling, fill it with the 12 colors of your chose, and your ready to go.
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#51H Parchment Tracing Paper
Heavyweight and finely textured surface offers high transparency and excellent erasure qualities. This 16 lb. parchment tracing paper can be used with pencil, pen or markers. Ideal for tracing, transfer, layout, sketch and overlay work. Copier, laser, and inkjet compatible. 50 sheets per pad.
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Average User Rating: Based on (5 Reviews)
pat chapin from henderson, nevada says:
I ran out of my usual brand on short notice, and got some of this -- it is lighter than regular parchment, and so would probably buckle if anything past technical pen and ink was used, but for sketching,...[more]
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Can I spray Workable Fixatif or Crystal Clear on the 38LB Parchment Tracing Paper to protect the transferred work and mount it to an illustration board?- Asked by Annie on 27-Sep-13
It depends on what medium was used on the tracing paper. If it was pencil, use a fixative that is best for that medium, etc.- Answered by MisterArt on 30-Sep-13
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Hockeynut! wrote:mac5155 wrote:We actually met with our DJ last night. We booked them cause we heard they were fun. They said they will bring props do have a few dances with. We were 'meh' on the whole idea, but as long as everyone else is cool with it, I don't care. At that point, pretty sure everyone will be drunk anyway.
Be careful. I shot one wedding where the DJ put YMCA attire on the bride, groom and wedding party so that everyone would have more "fun". Super lame. Of course, I was pretty jaded at that point. Maybe everyone else did think it was fun.
That happened at my cousins wedding. I was not a fan of dressing up like that at all. It was super lame.


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This morning the Washington Nationals offered a coupon code "for Teddy's friends": Order at Nationals.com using Coupon Code "TEDDY" and get half-price tickets in select seating sections through the remainder of the current Nationals Park homestand.
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We expect and hope that you will use this registry as intended and in a responsible and respectful manner. Registration is conducted under the honor system and we are not required to verify any disability or review any documentation to verify any disability, nor does any law require you to register, any individual found to abuse this registry will be expelled from the registry. The registry is not intended to be a certification process and we do not judge the proficiency of our registrants in any way, and nor would that be necessary under the law. Of course, we recognize that under the law you are allowed to train your own animal and we can not be responsible or liable for the actions of dog owners or their dogs either online or offline. Please obey all laws as they apply to your situation.
Designation: Emotional Support Dog Registration
Dog Name: Cliff
Owner Name: Willaim Faurot
Reason For Registering: Stress Related
Dog Breed: Lab-mix
State: Colorado
Link To This Registration:
Federal Law Prohibits Discrimination Of Breed,Size,Training Level Or Age Of Any Emotional Support Or Service Dog, Emotional support dogs do not have to be trained to perform any specific task. Service dogs can be trained by their owners or in any other manner the owner desires to assist them with their disability.
People With Service Animals Must Be Allowed Access To All Public Accommodations. This right takes precedence over all state and local laws which might otherwise prohibit animals in those places such as Stores, Malls, Restaurants, Hotels/Resorts, Airlines,Cruises, Taxi cabs, Buses just to name a few.
- FACT: Most People Do Not Know They Qualify For A Service Animal Or Emotional Support Animal.
- FACT: Most People Do Not Know Federal Laws Trump Any State Laws Regarding Service Animals
- FACT: Most People Do Not Know You By Law Are Allowed To Train Your Own Service Dog.
- FACT: Most People Do Not Know Service Dogs Do Not Require Any Physician Letter or Prescription.
- FACT: Most People Do Not Know Most Service Dog Owners Do Not Look Visibly Disabled.
- FACT: Most People Do Not Know Emotional Support Dogs Do Not Require Any Training.


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Unlock C&W Trinidad and Tobago iPhone
Price starting from: £14.99
Typical timeframe: 24-72 hours
Factory iPhone MEI Unlock for iPhones locked to C&W Trinidad and Tobago. Unlock your iPhone with a factory IMEI unlock and make your iPhone sim-free. Supports all baseband and firmwares including the latest iOS 7 and beyond.
Your iPhone is permanently unlocked and will remain so on updates with iTunes as it is an official unlock.
Get your iPhone locked to C&W Trinidad and Tobago working on your network of choice.
This service is for a sim lock removal ONLY, if your iPhone is locked to a previous owners iCloud account, you will require an Activation Lock Removal prior to unlocking your device.


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More room inspiration, slightly random-er this time. I've posted a lot of these pictures before but they're worth sharing again. I don't totally know how all these will translate in the end but they've been running through my mind nonstop like the victim of a bad pick up line.
Nicole Levaque and Nicki Minaj shrine by Teen Witch, for the shrine-ness and celebrity worship and candles and flowers and Ouija.
Madge in Desperately Seeking Susan, the video for Lust for Life by Girls, unknown, and Brenda Walsh, for the pinkness and flowers and haziness.
Grace Miceli, unknown, Kelly Bundy, lyrics to Old Age by Hole in my journal, for the cosmic vibes, collaged pentacle, Kelly's shirt and the wood-paneled-ness of their house, and shiny stickers.
All unknown! Boooo. Cats, flowers, shady bedrooms, girlness, etc.
Album art: Violent Femmes self-titled for the little girl and vines, Totally Crushed Out! by that dog for the Sweet Valley High-ness, Live Through This by Hole for the paint and basement and CL's queenness, PJ Harvey's Man Size for the flower.
Cinnamonkite, Petra Collins, reba bean, and Jane Birkin, for the iconography and flowers.
T. Reilly Hodgson, and the rest unknowns, for the cacti, bleeding paint, dusty technicolor summer colors.
Joni Mitchell's Ladies of the Canyon and Missoni Fall 2011 for the tiny stories.
Unknown and Helmut Lang Spring 1997 by Robert Mapplethorpe, for the awkward happy braces and hearts.
Unknown, birthday roses via Arnsdorf's amazing scrapbook, and Tim Walker, for the flowers and tiny decorations.
Kamikaze Girls and Kat Bjelland on the cover of Flipside, for the tiny treats and vines and broken dollhouses.
Tomas Castelazo for the idea of flower-adorned pastel cemetery crosses, Hasisi Park for combined witchy vibes and Weetzie Bat's Hollywood, the video for Violet by Hole for the storyteller fairytale ballerina stills, and old Schiaparelli perfumes for the colors and potion-likeness and sun.


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FixFit Wall outlet Square with non-return valve
Product code 26455000
£ 29.00
RRP incl. VAT
RRP incl. VAT
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Relax Crazy Sign
When the going gets tough, we just need to relax and accept the crazy. This reclaimed wood block sign is a great reminder to just relax and go with the flow. Sign can hang or stand on your mantle. Because every sign is made from reclaimed wood, the colors and stains of wood will vary.
Measures 6" x 6"
Returns must be in original condition with tags attached (this means items are unworn, unwashed, not smelly, no makeup stains, and not damaged/broken).
Exchanges can be done using your store credit. Once you get your code, just place a new order at WildflowerLI.com or in store.
All items returned will be given store credit for the purchase price. Your store credit will never expire! Sorry, we do not do price adjustments.
Shipping fees will not be credited unless we've messed up on our end.
Processing returns takes a few days, so please be patient with us!
Hats, Earrings, Fragrance Oils, Gift Cards, Sunglasses, Bodysuits, Intimates + Sale Items are FINAL SALE, this means they are yours forever.
Return your item(s) to the address below:
683 Glen Cove Ave
Glen Head, NY 11545
683 Glen Cove Ave
Glen Head, NY 11545
If you're interested, here's the long winded version....
Wildflower Long Island will take your unwanted stuff as long as you received your item 14 days ago or less and it's in the same condition that you got it in. If you wear it, party in it, and/or destroy it - we will be able to tell, and we will not take it back.
Send back your item(s) along with your return form (fill it out first please!) and include it all in your package. As soon as we receive your returned package, we will send you a confirmation email with all of your store credit info. Once you get that e-mail, you're ready to shop! You can also exchange your items at our store, bring in your unwanted stuff along with your receipt and we will issue your store credit right then and there!
You can use your credit to get a different size, color or whatever your heart desires at Wildflower! This code will never expire, so take your time deciding what treasures you'll add to your closet next!
Wildflower is not responsible for any shipping charges that may occur from a return.
Hats, Earrings, Fragrance Oils, Gift Cards, Sunglasses, Bodysuits, Intimates + Sale Items are FINAL SALE, this means they are yours forever.