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Man airlifted off Mount Warning (7 News Queensland)
A hiker was rescued by helicopter off Mount Warning after becoming too tired to walk down. Courtesy: 7 News Queensland
A HIKER slammed as "unfit" after being winched by helicopter from Mt Warning is a two-tour Afghanistan war hero who says he froze because of a post traumatic stress disorder meltdown.
The 38-year-old, 115kg army veteran, who did two tours for the Australian Defence Force in the Middle East, said he was crippled by a wave of "anxiety" when he reached the mountain's 1159m peak around 4.30pm on Easter Monday.
Rescue crews were called and 20 men were deployed to get Aaron "Dogga" to safety.
Thousands of taxpayer dollars later he was flown to Lismore Base Hospital where he was quickly discharged.
The Alstonville man gave his last name to the Gold Coast Bulletin but asked that it not be revealed.
The Bulletin confirmed his background after speaking to his mother, partner and a fellow soldier.
The war hero was in a horrific car crash while in service in 2006 and had to carry one of his best mates, Lance Corporal Andrew Jones, in a casket after the soldier was killed by an Afghan sniper in 2011.
Dogga told the Gold Coast Bulletin he never truly recovered from his experience and was "disgusted" to hear rescue workers "belittling" his condition by saying he was not fit enough to make the climb.
"Once I hit the top that's when my PTSD really took over and it took all my strength not to take the easy way out and leave it all behind me," he said.
"I sat up there for what felt like about two hours, trying to relax and compose myself. I tried three times to start going back down but my brain wouldn't let me move. There was a great group of three lads that tried to help me but they insisted I call 000.
"The lady on the phone said possible dehydration but I know the signs and symptoms and peed clear, didn't have a headache and I still had water with me."
The father of two said he was upset by rescuers who later said he only got into trouble because "he went up with no food and just a water bottle and tiredness kicked in because he was dehydrated".
"I had plenty of water, a salad wrap, an apple and a muesli bar," Dogga said.
"I am upset ... because PTSD is a real condition.
"I saw the signs telling you not to climb after 1pm in winter but it was 1pm exactly and (it was only autumn)."
Dogga was first diagnosed with PTSD in 2006 after badly injuring his spine in an army vehicle crash.
Gaining control of his demons, he went on to serve in Afghanistan in 2009 for six months and returned for another nine-month tour in 2011.
"Both those tours made my PTSD much worse and I was medically discharged in 2014," he said.
"Since then it has been a constant struggle. I started a Facebook group called IGY to bring awareness and support for those with PTSD and currently have 4500 members."
Originally published as'Unfit' hiker 'disgusted' with reaction


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Towbar Installation specialists for the North West based in St Helens
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subset: commoncrawl


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I've seen this done before but in a slightly different format, but here is my "What I'm… ing" this week!
What I'm watching at the moment:
I've always been a bit slow on the uptake when it comes to TV Shows so needless to say, until recently I'd never watched ABCFamily's Pretty Little Liars. I started watching it at the beginning of last week and I've been having a little mini binge session since then, as I'm already almost finished with Season 1. I haven't taken to a program quite as quickly as this one in a long time. I avoided watching it for so long because it just sounded too much like Gossip Girl, but now I can see how there are differences and I'm really enjoying watching it.
What I'm listening to at the moment:
As per usual, I'm listening to 1989 by Taylor Swift. She is absolutely my style icon and I love her music so much, I have a ridiculous obsession with her early stuff and her new album is also pretty damn fantastic. I particularly love Style and Blank Space although as a whole the entire album is wonderful. I'm also really enjoying the songs Hold Back The River by James Bay and I Follow Rivers by Lykke Li. Of course, I still like a little dance around my room to Uptown Funk by Bruno Mars & Mark Ronson as well.
What I'm wearing at the moment:
I'm back at work at the moment so I'm back to boring uniforms and smart dress, but at weekends I'm absolutely loving swinging mini skirts. I just bought the most gorgeous striped dress from Hollister and it makes me feel really French so I'll probably be getting a lot of wear out of that one!
What I'm using at the moment:
I'm using quite a few new products at the moment because I'm reviewing them for this blog, but I've started testing some French-made products as well to see if they're as good as they're hyped up to be. One of my French friends always has a tube of the Le Petit Marsailiais lip balm on her. I spied it in the supermarket aisles while I was doing my food shopping this week, and because it was cheap (less than 2 euros) and because she wouldn't forgive me if I didn't at least try it, I bought a tube. It makes your lips feel amazing, as far as I can see so far my chapped lips have more or less completely gone after only a few uses and it smells amazing as well- it has argon oil in it. I'm not sure if it's sold in the UK but if you're ever in France I definitely recommend buying this product.
What I'm reading at the moment:
At the moment I'm reading a political autobiography, which is kind of outside of what I'd normally read but I'm finding it surprisingly interesting and thought provoking! Its called This Boy by Alan Johnson, who is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer. It's the story of his life in poverty in 1950s Notting Hill and is definitely worth a read, especially at the moment in light of the upcoming parliamentary elections. I'm not far from finishing this, so my next read will be Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. I've been trying to read this book for years so I'm giving it yet another go. I'm also reading The Magician's Nephew by C.S. Lewis on the side, in French.
What I'm loving at the moment:
We have a lovely long four day weekend this week which is great for someone who works in a school! 2 extra days away from the kids goes down well in my books!
What I'm hating at the moment:
I'm currently in the midsts of re-enrolling at university for my final (fourth!!!) year! The module choices are ridiculous so I'm hating the thought of going back to uni right now!


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Cool Machine Wash.
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One Size Fits UK 8 to 16.
A stunning new style from our Capri and St Tropez range. The Made in Italy St Tropez Stripe Trousers feature an elasticate waistband, two pockets to the front and panel detailing to create a flattering shape on the leg. Team with flatforms and a basic tee for a cool and casual spring/summer style.
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text: Back to results Scroll Items 13526 of 13678 Main view Storage Gift Box (w/holiday bow) Week-At-A-Glance (sample) Month-At-A-Glance (sample) Holidays (sample data pages) Common Phrases (sample page) NYC Subway (sample) London Underground (sample) Los Angeles / CA (sample) City Map - Berlin (sample) Country Map (sample) Product Details Important: These are remaining books - 2014 Edition. Item color is from assorted inventory, by availability. If you have a preference, please do tell us in the SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS box as we will gladly accommodate you if possible. Otherwise, we will pick a perfect one for you. This versatile 7-inch notebook planner features month and week-at-a-view appointment pages plus pages for keeping notes on your daily activities. An ideal social agenda which includes recreational travel information, US and international holidays Size: 5-3/8" x 7-3/8", 224 pages Calfskin or Goatskin leathers Month and Week-at-a-View Smyth sewn for strength and longevity Cream-white, acid-free paper with gilt edges Personalization is available - ADD to your CART to see options Made in America Makes a great corporate gift We are so sure that you will love this book and want to grow the system for your home or office, each piece includes a free, unconditional lifetime refurbishing or replacement guarantee against any binding tears, fading, seam damage, or wear defect. Individually bench-crafted in the USA by the Graphic Image® Company. To view the complete Graphic Image® and Post Impressions™ collections, visit: Graphic Image® photo albums and books. SendAFrame fully stocks, factory fresh, the entire Graphic Image® line for your shopping convenience. 224 pages includes: 208 calendar, appointment and resource pages 16 map pages in full color Cream-white, acid-free paper with gilt edges Double-faced cream satin ribbon marker Smyth sewn for strength and longevity Calendar & appointment pages include: Previous, current and next year's calendars Month and week-at-a-view appointment pages Next-Year-Planning pages Includes information pages on: United States and International road and air distances United States and International weather World Times Zones International travel information Currency exchange rates Foreign embassies in the United States Weight and measure equivalents and conversions Special features include: Month-by-month listing of notable local events of national interest, including: festivals, parades, carnivals, Olympics, auto races, tournaments, fairs, jubilees, and expos. State Travel Directory: State-by-state listing of telephone numbers of useful sources of travel and tourism information. Items vary by state but typically include: State tourism offices City tourism offices Departments of transportation National and state parks National forests located in the region Departments of fish and game Contacts for local specialties such as fall color hotline in Vermont, or ski condition offices in skiing states. Map section: U.S. city maps: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Miami, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Tacoma, and Washington, D.C. International city maps: Athens, Budapest, Cairo, Delhi/New Delhi, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Jerusalem, Kobe/Kyoto, Lisbon, London, Madrid, Mexico City, Milan, Montreal, Rome, Osaka, Paris, Prague, Seoul, Tel Aviv/Yafo, Tokyo, and Vienna 2014 ASSORTED COLORS Notebook Planner 7'' Fine Leather by Graphic Image™ Model #5951270y List $80.00 You pay $12.90 2014 Stock - Priced to move In stock Can be shipped today Your Price Match is Active Your request for a price of $0.00 for a minimum quantity of has been accepted. You have [time] left to purchase this item for $0.00 Find a Lower Price? We BEAT All Authorized Retailers [?] Shipping details Brand: Graphic Image® Displays: 5"x7" Material: Leather (fine) Display Type: not applicable n/a Color: Black, Brown, Green, Red Approx. Overall Dimensions:5 3/8"x7 3/8" This item ships in its own box SHARE THIS ITEM Share on Facebook View more items Accessories Same Size, Different Look Different Size, Similar Look Tags - Similar Searches Accessories Same Size, Different Look Different Size, Similar Look Tags - Similar Searches Black SIDEKICK Magnetic Pen Holder - $14.50 Brown SIDEKICK Magnetic Pen Holder - $14.50 5"x7" - Black 7'' Notebook-Planner Traditional L - $64.00 5"x7" - Indigo-Blue Goatskin 7'' Notebook-Planne - $64.00 5"x7" - Pink Goatskin 7'' Notebook-Planner - $64.00 5"x7" - BLACK Goatskin 7'' Notebook-Planner - $64.00 5"x7" - 7in/9in Notebook-Planner - Assorted - $19.90 5"x7" - WHITE-GOLD 7'' Notebook-Planner - $64.00 5"x7" - SILVER 7'' Notebook-Planner - $64.00 5"x7" - 7'' Notebook-Planner - Assorted - $19.90 3.12"x6" - 2015 ASSORTED pocket 6'' datebook - $7.90 3.12"x5" - 2015 5inch pocket datebook ASSORTED - $8.90 journal Graphic Image walnut


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Dear Friends,
the Holy Days are coming closer and the Full Moon energies are strongly shining ahead. A wonderfully balanced and harmonic frequency is transmitted right now, to assist us over the Christmas Days. After the 12/12/2015 frequency Gateway, the Grand Galactic Alignment and the recent Solstice, the collectively rather overwhelmingly strong impact is calming down and relaxation settles in. At the same time is the nurturing power of the Christ Light more present than any other time in the year. Techniques such as forgiveness work on the family tree, purifying our energy field, designing blessings for next years cycle, and calling in guardian angels or the ascended masters, are especially effective in the days around the Christmas Fest.
These expanded flow that all this energetic openings have created, is now emerging through the dimensional doorways, carrying the pure light of consciousness that is holding the divine blueprint for this time. This energy frequency can be received by us through our crown chakra and the heart center. The awakening energy supports us collectively to move into a higher state of awareness. Which further leads to the creation of a series of multi-dimensional pathways, for us to access new dimensions of unconditional love, sharing and authentic co-creation. These pathways are designed to enable us to directly access the higher truth of our inner guidance. Quite dramatic life change can be needed, as old pattern finally begin to disintegrate. Maybe you feel like discovering your family a new!! During this particular Holy Days, we are blessed with the Planet Neptune, the planet of ideals and purification, in positive flow with the Sun and the Moon. This is a wonderful energy to be with family and friends, lovingly served by the universe to make our Holiday reunions happy encounters.More than two-thousand years ago, Jesus of Nazareth has created the divine highway of light, of the Christ Consciousness, Christ Awareness or I AM Awareness. The Golden Awareness of our divine inner light. The Jesus path of Christ Consciousness, is a path of self-discipline and self-mastery. In the collective consciousness Jesus Christ is manly remembered for his willingness to sacrifice his physical life, in order to proof that human beings carry the divine powers of resurrection and ascension
within themselves. What people rarely consider when thinking of the sacrifices of Jesus Christ, is that the word sacrifice comes from 'to make sacred.' The old Krishna practice, shamanic life approach and Buddha teaching, of thinking of everything as sacred, seeing everything as sacred, touching everything as sacred. It is on us to make the change, and the allow the divine support system to truly shift our world few.
Here are ten Common Effects a Christ Consciousness shift into Higher Vibrations can trigger:
1.) You might feel even stronger your empathy than usually, and need more down time.
2.) You may experience unstable emotions and physical sensations similar to growth pain, temporary sickness or other release signs.
3.) You don't feel like being in the presence of people who can't handle their emotions.
4.) You get more sensitive to fights and disagreements people try to pin on you, and less willing to balance the energies for others.
5.) You start having flashbacks into states of heightened awareness during work or in public places, can suddenly see the bigger picture of situations.
6.) Your energy field gets more comforting for animals, so they start increasingly coming to you.
7.) Total strangers feel the desire to open up to you about their hidden inner side or their life story.
8.) You start enjoying more and more outdoor activities, as nature feels now deeper relaxing and stronger nourishing to you.
9.) You develop an increased awareness for your hand and foot ckakras, as they start buzzing, vibrating, or pulsating when you are called to use them for healing.
10.) You might develop a strong interest in the healing arts in general, or discover that you have a natural talent there.
Dear Friends, I hope you will take a little time for yourself during the constant movements of this Holy Season, and spend them with "Christ Conscious Self- Love Awareness". May you be blessed with loving friends and harmonic family meetings, and may the shifts of the Cancer Full Moon bring balance, closeness and authentic communication into your tribal meetings!! Holy-Season Blessings an Love ;-)!
If you enjoy my posts and desire to sign up for the daily newsletter, you find a button on the right bar of my page. Please also like New Beginnings Guatemala on Facebook, and keep up the good work spreading the word ;-)! Feel INVITED to share this post also on your website or social media, just keep the links and credit active PLEASE! THANKS!


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"BJP claimed that it is the only government which had no cases of corruption. It has been harassing opposition parties by implicating them in false cases and unleashing CBI against them. But this is the same government which can go to any lengths to hide its own scams," said party member Ashutosh.
As an example, he quoted the case of Vineet Chaudhary whose name had figured in a Rs 7,000-crore scam in AIIMS. "He was health secretary to now health minister JP Nadda when the former was health minister in Himachal. Nadda and PMO made every effort to discredict the CVO in AIIMS then, Sanjeev Chaturvedi, to ensure that he could not investigate Chaudhary," Ashutosh alleged.
A senior official in the health minister's office said Nadda had removed himself willingly in 2015 from the issue and he also transferred the case from his ministry to DoPT for an independent probe. AAP claimed that Nadda had sent two letters to the Congress government and one when BJP was in power, to have Chaturvedi removed on fabricated technical grounds.


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Thank you, Doctor. Thank you, Nurse.
There are many reasons to dislike Facebook, but one of my biggest reasons for not leaving it is for the curation, or as HRIT guru Naomi Bloom describes it, "people/organizations you respect pointing you to great articles, blog posts, books, conferences and more."
Last night during a 3AM "can't sleep scroll," I saw the picture below from "Epic Human" on Facebook. With not much else to do, I read the post. You should, too. I have a deeply personal appreciation for medical professionals, and their human experience often goes unnoticed and unappreciated. Trust me. This short story of an ER doctor is worth your time…
By Epic Human
A photo of an ER doctor that went viral a while back showing him crouched down against a concrete wall grieving the loss of his 19-year-old patient. "Though this is a common occurrence in our field of work, the patients we lose are typically old, sick, or some combination of the two. The patient that died was 19 years old, and for him, it was one of those calls we get sometimes that just hits you."
Sometimes we don't know how to articulate how we feel, but ladies and gentleman, one of the responses to this photo from another fellow ER doctor is on point:
"The part most people fail to realize, is that this man now has to compose himself, walk into another person's room, and introduce himself with a smile and handshake to the next person. Sometimes healthcare workers walk in to see someone new and before even introducing themselves, out comes; "We've been sitting here for 45 minutes and …" or 'That guy next door has been moaning forever and nobody is helping him." You literally had to direct yourself 100 percent at someone grappling with death, and the rest of the show goes on around you.
There's times where you run, and rush, and hurry, and skip eating, and go 12 hours without urinating, and you'd give your firstborn for a cup of water, and through it all, you lose, you get complained to, and you get zero sympathy from your coworkers or management. I've been covered in phlegm, urine, feces, blood, infectious drainage, sweat, and tears. I've had to go from ensuring a person continues to breathe, to a room full of angry people because grandma wanted a Tylenol and the call light has been on for 10 minutes, and we're going to another hospital, and we want another doctor, and this place is getting a call to the administration, and I'm going to call a lawyer, and I'm calling Channel 6 news, and we know so-and-so and he's going to hear about this.
Health care is a life of fighting, defending yourself, sacrificing yourself, working weekends, missing holidays, and sometimes things like losing a patient makes you want to throw up your hands and say, "F— it, I'm out." But you can't. You do it because you love it. You do this thankless and unappreciated job because you want to. I can't believe I'm in 6-figure debt and gave up the nights and weekends of my 20s so I could voluntarily do it. But I couldn't see myself doing anything else."
You can say that again my friend, my hat's off to you.


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MIAMI — The Heat have built a reputation over the years for its long and grueling practice sessions. But there have been less of them this year.
Thursday's practice at AmericanAirlines Arena marked the Heat's first full practice in two weeks, with their last one coming on Dec. 14. Two back-to-back sets, a stretch of six games in nine nights and Christmas all coming during this two-week period are the biggest reasons for the lack of practices.
"We had a good mini-break for the holiday and guys were able to spend a little bit of time away from the gym," Heat coach Erik Spoelstra said Thursday. "Some guys were able to just get the needed rest to help with injuries."
And the Heat (18-16) haven't suffered for it, as they've posted a 5-2 record over the past two weeks. Miami will look to continue its winning ways when it hosts the Brooklyn Nets on Friday.
But the Heat aren't the only ones finding it hard to make time for practice. Teams around the league are holding less practices this season, with the NBA's mandate to reduce back-to-back sets and eliminate stretches of four games in five nights creating less practice days on the schedule.
The NBA's attempt to increase rest throughout the year to reduce the wear and tear on NBA players has actually created fewer extended breaks in between games, as 65 of the Heat's 82 games this season come after either a one-day break or on the back-end of a back-to-back set.
"It"s been an adjustment, but not only for us, but for everybody," Spoelstra said when asked how the new schedule has impacted practices. "We're all dealing with the same thing. Your shootarounds and film sessions, team meetings become that much more important."
Thursday's practice was especially important for the Heat, with center Hassan Whiteside getting a chance to go through a full practice. It marked Whiteside's first full practice since he went out with a bone bruise on his left knee on Nov. 29.
"Yeah, the rhythm, the timing, the cohesiveness, you can't take it for granted," Spoelstra said of Whiteside, who made his return from the injury in Tuesday's win over the Magic. "You actually have to spend time working at it and getting back into the swing of things. Also, just the pace of the game, it was different, when he had been out from injury. It's one thing to watch it. It's one thing to drill with a couple of different guys. It's different when you drill five on five."
The Heat's injured players weren't able to take advantage of the practice day. James Johnson (right ankle bursitis) went through part of practice, Justise Winslow (left knee strain) participated in light work and Dion Waiters (left ankle sprain) did not practice, and all three players have been ruled out for Friday's game against the Nets.
Rodney McGruder, who has been out since preseason leg surgery, continued to participate in drill work. But his return is not expected any time soon.
"He's progressing," Spoelstra said of McGruder. "We're definitely not trying to fast-track him. So the most important thing for him is to stay patient. We know how consistent relentless he'll be with his work, work ethic. We also have to be very smart about it."
And the Heat have had to be smart in handling this new-look NBA schedule.
"I think Spo has done a great job of managing everything," Heat 15-year veteran Udonis Haslem said. "And the way technology is today, with all these different sciences on how to preserve players and revive players, you know, we're tapping into all those things scientifically, too."
Asked if this practice discussion means today's NBA players are allowed to be softer, Haslem smiled.
"I don't know," he said. "I mean technically I'm considered one of today's players and I ain't soft. So it is what it is."
[Sixth man Tyler Johnson making most of opportunity as Heat starter]
[Heat have (big) problem: How will Erik Spoelstra handle crowded power rotation?]
[This is not just a hot 3-point shooting stretch for Wayne Ellington, he says: 'This is who I am now']
[Want more Heat news sent directly to your Facebook feed? Make sure to like our Heat Facebook page]


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Left to right: Shane Filan, Kian Egan, Mark Feehily, Nicky Byrne.
I can tell you when I first fell for Westlife, and it was a long time ago, 10 years in fact. I remember hearing one song, and knowing it was over for me. They are purveyors of Pop, pure and simple. And I love me some Pop music! It is the only Westlife song I remember being played on the radio in the US, but it was enough to hook me. This is Swear It Again.
While they started with five, in 2004 they became four with the departure of Brian McFadden. Despite being a few decades removed from their target demographic, I buy all the albums and the DVDs, with a strong desire to see them live at some point. In 2005, Mark Feehily came out, announcing his relationship with Kevin McDaid, which continues today. He had the full support of Shane, Kian and Nicky, as well as the fans, which is fantastic. I continue to enjoy the music, including this song from 2009, Something Right.
Enjoy the online experience at their website here.


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Dream a little • Relax a little • Play a little
Renew your mind, body, and spirit on a unique adventure. Located on 80 acres of lush forest with large fresh water pond, just two hours drive from Toronto Pearson International airport in the most desired region of Ontario – Famous Muskoka! Recognized as one of the top vacation destinations in the world by National Geographic magazine (10 Best Trips in Canada picked by National Geographic). Also recommended by Reader's Digest 2014 and MSN Travel. Tipi Adventure is located in the midst of picturesque lakes, close to Algonquin Park and other famous tourist attractions.
NO NEED for CAMPING GEAR • SLEEP in our TIPIS
Can you dream? Imagine living in a tipi. Gazing at billions of stars, watching moose and deer, sitting around the campfire and roasting marshmallows, hiking through the forest and discovering new things. What an adventure! Everything is provided – just bring your sleeping bag and food! We are equipped with three large TIPIS, each sleeps 10 comfortably!
Great for families, small groups, church groups, sports clubs, business team building, nature & outdoor enthusiasts. Accommodating groups up to 30 maximum. (Tipis are not shared with others unless they are with you and are part of your booking).
Our mission is for people to reconnect with each other, away from our fast-paced world, to center themselves, valuing nature's beauty, its strength but also its fragility; revitalizing their family bonds and friendships by participating in and enjoying outdoor activities.
Book your Tipi Adventure today!
Private tranquil getaway or a fun-filled adventure!
Not only can you sleep in a Tipi, but you can explore the boreal forest on marked trails, watch wildlife, hike, mountain bike! Snow shoe! Toboggan! Skate or play pond hockey. Fishing and swimming! Row the boat! Play some Soccer, Badminton, Volleyball and more. Every season provides unique experiences! Ask us about our personal training program designed just for you. Relax during a Massage, laugh and sing around the campfire, or … just do nothing! Almost all year round!
To learn more, view our Activities
Comforts of Home
- 3 Large Tipis
- Each Tipi sleeps up to 10 people comfortably
- Heatable Tipis
- Mosquito Proof
- Fire Proof
- Cots, dishes, pots, & utensils provided
- Firewood provided
- Drinking Water provided
- Decorated with original hand painted murals
- Free Coffee, Tea or Hot Chocolate for breakfast
- Gift Shop & Bathroom Facilities
- 5 km hiking trails, fresh water pond
Living in a Tipi
Swimming & Boating
Nothing says summer like swimming and boating. Relax on the sandy beach or go for a swim in our small, clean fresh water pond. A small row boat is provided for your pleasure and sand toys for the little ones. Go fishing! Or explore around the pond for frogs, turtles, fish and salamanders… Lake beaches are just short drive away!
Activities & Sports
Find your adventure! Offering 5km marked trails for walking, hiking, mountain biking & snowshoeing. Jump on the wagon and take a ride, or test your skills on our soccer field or volleyball/badminton court! For the young ones, there is a small playground near the picnic area and some games can be signed out. Winter activities include a skating ring on the pond and a tobogganing hill (bring your own equipment!).
Facilities & Amenities
All the comforts of home… we provide private outdoor showers with a change room, clean waterless toilets, hand and dish washing stations. Gather around our covered picnic table area and have a BBQ! The kitchen is equipped with shelves, stove/oven, cupboards & a small fridge, table & chairs, drinking water dispenser. Various games for inside or out are available. And explore further with our tourist information and maps. We also have a small store and gallery with unique art and useful things!
General Inquiries
To ensure your inquiry is responded to promptly, please call us directly at 705-706-7125 if you do not receive a response within 24 hours. Thank you for your understanding.
Contact Details
Jochen & Elke Schlichte
Location: 1345 Beatrice Townline Road, Bracebridge, Ontario P1L 1X4
Telephone: (705) 706-7125
For inquiries about booking our Tipi Adventures, please use our Reservation Form or call us directly at (705) 706-7125. Please see Terms & Conditions.


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As we gather here to commemorate the 71st anniversary of the Ukrainian Genocide Famine, we must recognize a man who made it his life's work to be the voice of the 10 million Ukrainians
who perished during Stalin's Genocide Famine against Ukraine. Without a doubt this one man contributed more to raising international awareness of the Ukrainian Genocide Famine than
any single researcher, historian or journalist in the world. The man I speak of is the late Dr. James E. Mace.
Dr. Mace was born in 1952 in the State of Oklahoma. His heritage was that of Native American Indian. Yet over the course of his life he planted his roots in Ukraine, mastering the Ukrainian
language, adopting Ukraine as his homeland, and treating the Ukrainian people as his own brothers and sisters under God.
Dr. Mace developed his interest in Ukraine during early 1980's while he was a post doctoral fellow at the Ukrainian Research Institute at Harvard University. His research at the Institute
focused on the Soviet Ukraine during the period of 1918 to 1933.
Engrossed by Ukraine's tragic suffering during that period, Dr. Mace began to focus his research on the 2 most devastating years of Ukraine's history: 1932 and 1933. His following studies
focused in-depth on the Famine of 1932-33.
As a result of his vast research on the Ukrainian Famine, in 1986, Dr. Mace became the staff director of the United States Commission on the Ukraine Famine. His Commission generated
the first oral history project of its kind, documenting over 2000 pages of eyewitness accounts from hundreds of Famine survivors. The Commission published a 524 page report to the
United States Congress which decisively proclaimed in its findings that the Famine of 1932-33 was an act of Genocide committed by Stalin and those around him against the Ukrainian
In 1987, Dr. Mace found and disclosed compelling evidence which supported the theory that the New York Times, Walter Duranty and the Soviet Government were cooperating in an effort
to censor information about the atrocities occurring in the Soviet Union in the 1930s. He was the first person on record to cite the declassified US State Department document which linked
the New York Times to the Soviet Government, and in essence to the Soviet cover-up of the Ukrainian Genocide Famine.
In 1990, Dr. Mace moved to Kyiv and continued his work on the Genocide Famine. He shared his knowledge and understanding of Ukraine's past and current history with his students at the
Kyiv Mohyla Academy National University where he was a highly regarded professor. He challenged the mindset of the Ukrainian public through his thought provoking and critical editorials
for the Ukrainian newspaper "The Day".
And when asked why he had bothered to come to Ukraine – Dr. Mace simply replied "Your Dead Have Called Me". He felt he had a moral obligation to be the voice for the millions who
died in the genocide against Ukraine.
Dr. Mace brought the Genocide Famine to a new level of national awareness in Ukraine. Not only did he successfully persuade the Ukrainian Government to officially recognize that a
Famine occurred in Ukraine, but he was critical in persuading the Ukrainian Government to declare that it was an intentional act of Genocide by Stalin and his Administration. And it was Dr.
Mace who successfully led the fight to have a permanent memorial to the victims of the Genocide Famine built in Kyiv.
Dr. Mace was pleased last year to hear that members of the US Senate had introduced a Resolution with the potential to stimulate the United States to recognize the Famine of 1932-33 as
an act of Genocide. Sadly, five months ago, with the Senate Resolution 202 still in committee, Dr. Mace passed in his adopted homeland of Ukraine. He died an untimely death at the age
of 52.
I ask you to join me in a moment of silence and reflection on all that Dr. Mace – Ukraine's crusader for truth – did to honor the victims of the Genocide Famine.
Dr. Mace's work is far from complete – There are still many in the world who continue to deny the Ukrainian Genocide Famine occurred and there are even more who have never heard of
it. There are still those in the media who continue to walk in the footsteps of Walter Duranty and the New York Times, by obstructing the truth about the Genocide Famine from reaching the
When was the last time you read about the Ukrainian Genocide Famine or its survivors in the Chicago Tribune, the New York Times, or even Newsweek? When do you ever turn on the
news and see a story about the legacy of our survivors? It's amazing, because what happened to the Ukrainian nation in 1932 and 33 is undeniably the deadliest act of Genocide in modern
history. 10 million Ukrainians died because Stalin deemed their Ukrainian nationalism to be an obstacle to his Soviet collectivization campaign. Yet apparently this kind of genocide is not
worthy of media coverage.
I ask you today – Is it worthy?
Because if we agree that the Ukrainian Genocide is worthy of coverage then we must commit ourselves to following in Dr. Mace's footsteps and becoming crusaders for the truth. We must
commit ourselves to educating the world about the Genocide which claimed our brothers and sisters in Ukraine.
Behind me stands a sign – "Sin of the Century" – the real sin of this century is for us, who have a voice, to turn our backs on the millions whose voices were muffled by Stalin's genocide. It's
our legacy, to make their voices heard, today – tomorrow – 100 years from now.
There are over 100,000 Ukrainian-Americans living in Chicagoland. And look around…how many of us are here today? How many of us actually care about the Ukrainian Genocide?
Where are your grandchildren…your children…your sisters…your brothers…your cousins…your aunts and your uncles? Why is this not important to us?
We need to change!
And how can we do this? For once, we have to stop using terms which misrepresent the genocidal nature of the famine and confuse non-Ukrainians. I'm referring to terms that we're all
familiar with:
These terms make no reference to the fact that what happened to our nation was an act of genocide.
And then there are the terms HOLOD and the HOLODMOR – We have used these Ukrainian words loosely when we speak in the English language. These words are foreign to the majority
of the world and aren't even found in any English Dictionary. Let's start calling it what it really was. It was GENOCIDE. It was a GENOCIDE FAMINE. This is a term which the world can
16 years ago, Dr. Mace's and his Congressional Commission gave the US government proof that the Famine that occurred in Ukraine was an act of Genocide, yet 16 years have passed
and our United States Government has sat on that information, unwilling and unmotivated to make an official declaration of Genocide in Ukraine.
Just last week, the United States government declared Genocide in Sudan. President Bush, in a statement on the Genocide in Sudan, said "the world cannot ignore the suffering of more
than 1 million people". Yet, apparently the world can continue to ignore the suffering of 10 million Ukrainians.
Right now Senator Richard Lugar of Indiana, the Chairman of the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee, continues to stall the United States' official declaration of Genocide in Ukraine. For
the past 13 months Senate Resolution 202, which would finally put the U.S. Senate on the record declaring the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33 an act of Genocide, has been held up in
Senator Lugar's Committee. Senator Lugar refuses to move the Resolution out of his Foreign Relations Committee and onto the full Senate floor for a vote even though it has support from
the majority of the Committee
The Ukrainian-American community needs to send Senator Lugar a strong message. We need to let him know that the world can no longer ignore the suffering of 10 million Ukrainians and
that he is doing an injustice to the Ukrainian-American people not acting on Resolution 202.
Senator Lugar is just one of the many challenges we face in our quest to educate the world about the Genocide Famine. One of our biggest challenges has been the lack of information
and coverage about Ukraine and Ukrainian history in the text books and in classrooms of K-12.
I can still remember the day my Fourth Grade Social Studies teacher corrected me when I said I was Ukrainian. He told me that Ukraine was not a country – that my family was from the
Soviet Union – and that therefore I was Russian. To this day I can't blame his ignorance, because the Social Studies textbook confirmed his belief. According to the pages of the text book
there was no country named Ukraine on the map and all the people of the Soviet Republics were Russians.
Fortunately, things have changed in the past few decades and today's textbooks portray a more accurate depiction of the former Soviet Republics. Ukraine has reappeared on the map. But
what hasn't changed is that most classrooms still lack is any study of the Ukrainian Genocide.
Across the nation laws require children to learn about the Nazi Holocaust which claimed the lives of 6 million Jews, yet only 2 states – New Jersey and New York – encourage or require
teachers to educate their students about the Ukrainian Genocide.
The Ukrainian Genocide Famine Foundation is not going to wait until there is mandate in place to begin preparing Illinois teachers to teach their students about the Ukrainian Genocide
Famine. We have initiated an accredited seminar program for high school teachers this year so that teachers have the knowledge and tools to begin educating their students about the
Ukrainian Genocide Famine today.
One of those tools is the Internet – unarguably the most accessible and widespread means of mass communication today. To help students, teachers and anyone interested in learning
about the Ukrainian Genocide Famine, the Foundation will be launching a website in the coming months. The website will provide the world with one centralized hub for Genocide Famine
information both in English and Ukrainian and with links to resources and documents.
I urge you to be active in this process of expanding awareness of the Ukrainian Genocide Famine. Write or call Senator Lugar and tell him to stop sitting on Resolution 202. Stop using
vague terms like the "Great Famine" or the "Terror Famine" and call it what it was – Genocide Famine. Support the Ukrainian Genocide Famine Foundation's education initiatives. Working
together we can honor the memory of the late Dr. James Mace and preserve the memory of those who perished in the Genocide Famine.
In closing I'd like to leave you with an exerpt from an editorial Dr. Mace wrote last October in the Ukrainian newspaper, The Day:
Dr. Mace wrote: "After All, the greatest gift a child can give is to provide something his or her parents can be proud of. Those who have worked so hard for the memory of the millions who
perished in Ukraine have given those who came before them something to be proud of. After all, the memory of what was is the key to creating what will be. May those who came before
look down upon us with some reason for pride. May we look up to them in the hope that we have done something worthwhile".
Let's heed Dr. Mace's words and work together to give those who came before us something to be proud of. Thank you.
©Katya Mischenko-Mycyk 2004
Designed and Maintained by
UGFF- USA, Inc. 2008
Ukrainian Genocide Remembrance Day 2004
Keynote Address of Katya Mischenko-Mycyk
September 19, 2004
Sponsored by the Ukrainian Genocide Famine Foundation
Bloomingdale, Illinois USA on September 19, 2004


text:
School Prayer and the Separation of Church and State: The Conflict That Keeps On Giving
School prayer…what a mess! Our nation has been fighting over this issue ever since the 1960s when the Supreme Court ruled that school prayer along with school Bible reading, teachers discussing religious topics, and posting the Ten Commandments are unconstitutional.
Why was school prayer removed? We're told the reason is that...
America is a nation founded on the principle of the separation of church and state. As a pluralistic nation, we respect all religious beliefs and would not want someone else's beliefs imposed upon us. Therefore, it's wrong for us to impose our beliefs on others. This especially applies to children. We should not impose upon them the external rituals of religion like organized prayer: faith should be something natural that comes from the heart and not a dry, legalistic, formalistic prayer. Therefore, public prayer has been banned from schools.
While the above mantra might sound plausible to some, it's mistaken. This essay is dedicated to countering the argument that prayer should be banned from our nation's schools.
The Separation of Church and State
First, the separation of church and state. The separation of church and state has been an important feature of the American experience. Many Americans throughout history and some foreigners, like Alexis de Tocqueville, have remarked on the distinction between church and state and how it has been important in American history. But what does "separation of church and state mean"?
A "church" and the "state" are institutions, so to "separate" church and state is to maintain a clear distinction between institutions. "Separation of church and state" would imply that the leadership and finances of the two institutions should be kept distinct. When it comes to finances, the state should not pay a tithe to the church and the church should not pay a tax to the state.
However, "separation of church and state" does not mean the separation of religion and politics. To bar religious ideas from the public square is to discriminate based on religion. For example, some anti-religious groups have tried to ban an abstinence-based sex-education curriculum from public schools because the idea is "religiously-based." But what is awkward for religion-bashers is that the concept of the separation of church and state is a Christian idea. The late political theorist, George Sabine, had this to say about the separation of church and state:
The rise of the Christian church, as a distinct institution entitled to govern the spiritual concerns of mankind in independence of the state, many not unreasonably be described as the most revolutionary event in the history of western Europe, in respect both to politics and to political philosophy …Christianity raised a problem which the ancient world had not known—the problem of church and state—and implied a diversity of loyalties and an internality of judgment not included in the ancient idea of citizenship…[1]
So, the distinction between church and state was initially a Christian idea, not a secular one. Furthermore, when we are separating church and state, we are separating institutions, not practices. The finances, bylaws, the leadership should be kept separate. As for religion and politics, they are inseparable.
Religious Pluralism
Second, let's look at the belief that we are to respect all religions. This is probably the most ridiculous of all the statements. We do not respect all religions. Some religions would demand the eradication of all other faiths except their own. Do we respect such beliefs? What about religions that demand polygamy or child sacrifice? Are we under obligation to permit, under the umbrella of religious free exercise, practices that are immoral?
Furthermore, it's wrong to suppress the free exercise of religion in the schools over the fear that someone might be offended by a school prayer. In America, we don't suppress the freedoms of others because someone might be offended by its exercise. It's wrong to remove the Ten Commandments from the children's view, wrong to cut the mike of a valedictorian address because she acknowledges God in public, and wrong to send school children to the administrator's office because they did their school project on a religious theme.
One view of religious freedom prevails in our schools: It's the view of the atheist who holds that no public exercise of religion should be allowed since he will be offended by it. Perhaps his opposition stems from having been made to participate in religion when he was younger. But whatever the source of his aversion, his disapproval should never have been allowed to become the policy of the many. He angrily protests that your views on religion should not be imposed upon him while he rubs your nose in his own.
Today, we are told that America should have a "freedom from religion." However, no one has a right not to hear or see something religious. All of us see and hear things that offend us everyday. A part of maturity is knowing how to handle that without throwing a tantrum about it.
What the atheist would have us to believe is that because there are variations of religious beliefs, all beliefs, except his, should be suppressed. But the rationale is childish. We suppress neither the freedom of speech nor the freedom of the press just because people have differing views on the subject.
The Value of a Ritual
A third reason for banning school prayer is that prayer is a religious ritual that children should be exposed to only when they are adults when they can make religious decisions for themselves.
The problem with this view is that we regularly expose children to our values and beliefs and sometimes we impose them. In fact, we have an ethical obligation to impose some values upon them. Should we allow children to make their own choices on whether they learn or not? Whether they choose to love or hate those outside their race? "Let's let them decide for themselves whether or not they leave the scene of a hit-and-run accident of which they were the perpetrator." You see the problem, don't you? We do not and cannot wait to impose certain practices upon children. They must be taught and they must be taught now.
It is right to acknowledge God and be grateful to Him. Children should be taught how to express these ideas, even if they don't fully understand them or mean them.
Yes, it's true: children often don't know what they're saying when they're praying. They often lack the depth of understanding to comprehend their actions in such matters. But, I reject the idea that a ritual prayer has no value in the life of a child. We have children do many things in which they lack the wisdom of perceiving their value. It's silly to oppose prayer in schools on those grounds.
When I was in school in the late 60s, every morning we would stand in our class, say the Pledge of Allegiance, sing "My Country Tis of Thee" and pray the Lord's Prayer. That old teacher of mine apparently didn't know that her nation's Supreme Court had earlier ruled that those rituals were unconstitutional or perhaps she did know, but just didn't care. After all, praying in school was constitutional for most of her adult life.
When we prayed the Lord's Prayer, we hardly knew what we were doing. But we knew enough to know that it was about God. We also didn't understand the significance of saying the Pledge or singing the song "My Country Tis of Thee," but we knew enough to know that they were about America.
Some of my best memories from grade school are from those first grade rituals. I taught all my children that prayer, and today, when I pray it, it's no mere ritual. When I publicly pray it, I think about what I'm saying. Throughout my life, I have contemplated the meaning of the words. It's been one of the most rewarding and fulfilling spiritual experiences of my life.
A Conflict that Keeps on Giving
Today, most people think that the conflict over prayer in schools surrounds those that want to keep prayer out v. those that want prayer back in. But that's not the real tension. The fault line exists because prayer, Bible reading, and the general acknowledgement of God were removed in the first place. It's been a divisive issue ever since that happened. And there is no way it will ever cease to be a controversy until the ban is lifted.
A good argument can be made that a government-created and sanctioned prayer is a mistake, that schools should not impose such prayers. But the people of this nation have the freedom to corporately pray in the schools if they so wish and the existing prohibition of that freedom is a violation of the free exercise of religion as stated in the First Amendment of the Constitution. This lunacy must stop.
It's going to stop.
This is the United States of America, a nation predicated on the belief that men, women, and children have the freedom to worship God in their homes, as well as in the streets; in the school house as well as in the church house. The ban on prayer is unsustainable: the American people will not suffer it forever. Christians should take heart: some atheists have succeeded in imposing their narrow view of religion on our government and its schools. They have been successful in eliciting the help of the historically ignorant under misplaced metaphors like the "Wall of Separation." They have convinced many of our citizens that their view of religion is to free American from religious oppression. But all they have given us is oppression. This imposition will not last forever.
If you enjoy controversy, you've embraced a winner, because this matter of prayer in schools will never go away so long as our children are treated as criminals for believing in God and exercising that belief in our nation's schools.
[1] George Sabine, A History of Political Theory, Third Edition. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1961.
© 2010 William R Bowen Jr
I think you have to provide a place like an airport and allow people to go their. A seperate building for religous studies would be fine as well. I do not think church everywhere in a school will ever work. We have to be secular and allow difference and a place or time for each group. Not even churches agree on anything and all the so called believers who support the devil named Trump have proven they love hypocrisy. The church would be destroyed in their pursuit of discrimination and the false message they bring to others. We must learn to argue and be willing to accept the truth based on the facts. When people can learn about the Bible and no longer be forced into conversion but make their own choice. When one can read the Bible and see wisdom, intelligence and common sense regardless of if they believe in god or not. Even if all I ever wanted was wisdom the Bible would be the greatest book ever writtren. Sadly free will has destroyed any regard for the truth or facts on any given subject and that is why the argument has been lost. It takes free will to make any decision regarding God. It takes spiritual maturity outside of the Church to practice anything. The complete disregard for all Earthly agendas is required to only see salvation. Earth is purgatory and the lowest of spiritual beings need a lifetime to face judgement. We are never going to find it in a Godless nation or a Theocracy where religous leaders tell us what we must do. Its about having enough patience and faith that others will be shown the way by there own jorney to see beyond this life.
We have been fighting this battle the wrong way for a very long time. Having it all someone's way depending on where you live this way of thinking suppressed many others. We need to demand choice and accommodations just like everyone else. Parents should have the right to not have their children taught sex education they disagree with and be given choices. Hundreds of places have rooms to pray in and why can a school not allow such a place. When did not praying in silence become a law breaker? The military makes accommodations for all faiths, why can a school not do the same? Belief is more powerful then learning and their is not one study that can disprove it. Choice and the right to practice your beliefs, supersedes anything they can attempt to deny you. You have to demand choice and fight for your beliefs. Instead to much time has been wasted on denying others choice while they denied you of yours.
Are you kidding me? Christian beliefs are trampled on? Is that why the vast majority of Americans identify as Christian? Is that why not professing a belief in God is a career killer in politics? Give me a break. If anything, it's atheists who get short-changed. Sorry, nobody's trying to suppress your right to pray in schools. You can pray of your own volition, but forcing others to do it is unfair to them. Again, if someone belongs to another religion, how are you respecting THEIR rights by forcing Christianity on them?
I'm sick of Christians clammering for prayer in schools, when they'd be outraged if, say, Muslims wanted to force all public school students to read the Bible. There are many faiths in the U.S. and the country is founded on not giving preference to one religion over another. The only way to make it legitimate is to give each student equal exposure to every religion. Of course, that won't happen because as we all "know", the only true God is the God in the Bible. There's no evidence for the Christian God's validity over other gods, but hey, all you need is faith and that alone makes it true, right?
Notice, when prayer was in public schools, they were not so bad. Now look at them. Public school systems in America are awful. Believing in God and the prayers in school helped children a lot.
Now all children have to look up to is the encroachment of gays, lesbians and transgenders trying to teach them how to put on condoms. In addition to that, the American social structure has eroded because the moral belief installed within Christian prayer is gone.
In Utah, and other places throughout the west we have communities of religious adherents to a doctrine that demands that young girls are sexually assaulted and married off to their far older uncles. To the people in these communities this is a matter of their religious belief and practice. The communities are closed, children are taught that leaving the community means that they are damned to hell, that disobeying the prophet damns them and their families to hell.
This is why the exercise clause needs to be subordinate to statute. In your brand of reasoning any practice that an organized religion could conceive would be entirely legal for them to practice. Jurisprudence demands that some liberty be limited for the protection of others. This is jurisprudence older than Christianity itself. The only reason that liberties are restricted at all is to protect the public at large, our rights to private property, our welfare, etc.
I highly doubt our framers would have been advocates of a system that allows for reprehensible practices in the name of organized religion. I am not saying that public prayer is reprehensible, but that the Exercise clause should not have the overreaching authority you assign to it.
With a government established by the people and for the people how can you in good conscience say that some freedoms shouldn't be limited for the public's benefit? Some liberties are limited to protect others that are more fundamental and important. While religious practices are fundamental they do not have any sort of trump over other fundamental rights, ie life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When I am at school I am there to learn the curriculum that the state has mandated I learn because I am pursing my diploma, or degree, in the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere in that scenario is there a need for prayer, and so introducing it into the equation is infringing upon what I am doing.
Being in a Constitutional Republic isn't a free pass for organized religion to have its way all the time, nor should it be.
The Constitution establishes a form of government, and principles for government, not the particulars. This is intentional to provide flexibility, and why it allows for the various parts of the body politic to establish their own rules, and norms. For example the Constitution allows the U.S. Senate the ability to establish their own procedures and rules for operations. I'm not setting aside the constitution; rather the constitution is smaller than most make it out to be.
It is the traditional purpose of the U.S. Supreme Court to interpret applications of the Constitution. All religious practices can't be protected by the first amendment because some practices may be illegal or contrary to public welfare. This is a principal of sound governance…. The public at large is more important to protect than a religious denomination.
In the case of prayer in public schools it has been argued, successfully, and repeatedly, (ie. Engel v Vitale) that a public school requiring a religious practice violates the Establishment Clause of the first amendment. That makes the act of a public school requiring a religious practice illegal.
This is how it boils down; individuals have the right to pray, but public institutions don't have the legal ability to require their clients to do so. In this way both clauses are being upheld. I don't see how it gets anymore fair to both constitutional concepts, and I have a wealth of U.S. Justices at all levels that agree with me.
Growing up I never heard anyone complain that their rights as a Christian were being trampled daily in their public schools. Christian values thrive regardless of what is taught in school, so long as Christian households are making it thrive. If there is a need to strengthen Christianity, then Christians need to start where it's appropriate, in their own lives, in their own homes.
I apologize for not reading all comments made and if I happen to duplicate already stated opinions on the subject.
It would be my preference to see a "wall of separation" between the government and our school system as a first priority. I am not opposed to local taxes being collected to offset the per student cost of education in each locality. The education of each new generation is and will continue to be a high priority in any successful nation.
People should be afforded the opportunity to provide a Christian education to their children without the increased costs involved under our current system. We have become an increasingly diverse nation religiously and even if a person is an atheist, they should have the opportunity to compete in a free market educational system.
As long as our federal government isn't advocating one religion over another or providing benefits to any religion other than the protection of their rights under the constitution; their main objective is accomplished. Having prayer in school or the posting of the ten commandments in a government run school system is as wrong to me as a government run school system in present day America.
A secular, government run school isn't structured to accommodate an assortment of beliefs and it is impractical to think it should. We are no longer anywhere close to the Nation we were in the 1950' and it is doubtful that we will ever be again. The American people might be better served with diversity in our choice of schools rather than attempting to created diversity in our current system.
Our children are pummeled with diversity talk, maybe it is time we allow them to be diverse.
Public schools are where they need to be in regard to this issue. Students have the freedom to have faith, to pray on their own time, and the schools have no right to suppress their faith.
First amendment verbiage aside it is important to note that the Supreme Court of the USA does not extend the first amendment to religious practices (Reynolds v. United States). While the explicit language reads that religious practices that are contrary to law are not protected, the message is clear. Religious practices take a back seat to policy, after all organized religion is allowed to stay and function at the discretion of the government, under the protection of the government. Public schools are entities of the government, and as such religious practices take a back seat to the curriculum of public schools; the strong personal conviction of individuals notwithstanding.
I come from the state of Utah where the predominant organized religion (LDS Church) has a building across the street from every high school and junior high school. The students have the option of taking one class period to go to that "seminary" building and have lessons, prayers, etc. In this way the students are able to exercise their religious "needs," but also leave the rest of us out of it. Perhaps proponents of the need for prayer in school should advocate for a similar system.
Just to inform about those who think this country was started by people wanting to separate church and state, sorry to burst your bubble. People were trying to get away from the Church of England. They were forced financially to support the religion whether being believers or not.
It was an understood principle of the time that faith was to embrace your daily actions. Believe it or not, faith principles and details of such were actually TAUGHT in school. Yes, public school. Think there might be some kind of coincidence that since religion (well, Christianity anyway) has been banned from public school, our country falls further and further behind other countries in respect to graduating students' abilities.
Our founding fathers described government as a necessary evil required to be in place because not everyone chooses to follow Biblical principles.
Sure, it's nieve to think everyone would follow God's guidelines, but what if they did?
And like Kaiser Sozay........
he was gone.
Of course they had biases. Do you think they were a monolithic single minded block that sat down and wrote the COTUS in an afternoon? You know they fought like cats and dogs because they had biases and opinions. When they legislated, those biases came to bear on the laws they passed, just like today. Heck, their biases led to pistol duels! Sure we can disagree with them, just like they disagreed with each other.
No response to the rest of the post though, huh?
So your argument is that the implementation of the COTUS at the time of its passage was inerrant and perfect and can not be found subsequently in error.
I respectfully disagree. These were not gods. They were people, influenced by the same biases and agendas that we have today.
Currently, jurisprudence has come down on the side of not leaving any impression of establishment by emphasizing one faith tradition over another. Unless you want to cycle Wiccans, Athiests,Presbyterians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et.al. in front of the loudspeaker in the schools, you are restricted. You have not made a case that the constant recitation of prayer that you find personally acceptable to impressionable children does not constitute establishment. The courts think it does.
Good luck in court. See you there.
" Finally, I'm not advocating mandatory prayer in school; I'm opposing its absolute prohibition. Americans have the right to make this choice of whether to pray or not pray."
This is quoted from your response to Adagio. We are in total agreement and you are stating the position of the ACLU, too.
Kids are free to pray, but the school is not free to lead them in it and make them feel coerced into the practice.
Your argument that the establishment suggests the government supporting something that already exists does not follow. It's not a logical conclusion from the clause. It forbids government from making law that would create "establishment" (active) of religion, not the support of an "established" religion.
Reading it as "in regard to" is extremely important to the point you were making before. You are trying to adapt your point now to maintain its relevance. You have already acknowledged that it dismantles your previous point. You had the character to admit that. Don't weaken that by trying to minimize the error. It was admirable.
The Founders did know their english, apparently. It's you who needs a brush up.
Oh well, I will rest on the knowledge that the greatest legal minds of the last 30 years have disagreed with you, and I share their judgment.
That's really all there is to it.
Good luck in your crusade. In the meantime, enjoy your faith, and report back when someone doesn't allow you to worship as you see fit.
How can the people "work out their differences" if one theological point of view is emphasized to children by people that possess enormous authority over them? I don't want the people's faith repressed in a government institution. I want the government's faith suppressed there to allow the people's faith to remain free.
Once again, I don't wish to suppress free exercise, just prevent establishment. As long as you repeatedly misrepresent the position as being an attack on free exercise and not the maintenance of the establishment clause, we can't move on in the discussion. They aren't to be conflated.
The only way to make the case that all interpretation of all laws must stay the way they were in the 1780's is to say that they were unable to err in their judgments. You are lifting these people to the station of gods, not fallible men. The job of the SCOTUS is to interpret the COTUS the best way they can and to render a judgment. They may disagree with the Founder's interpretations at times, and that is their job.
The free exercise clause is what protects all our freedoms to worship as we see fit. Noone has the first problem with that, that I have seen. But the establishment clause has been interpreted to mean the government should be hands off when it comes to influencing people in regards to their faith. It is a personal, protected issue that the government has no business meddling with.
To make your case, you have made the strange interpretation that "respecting" means that the government won't endorse a religion that somehow has become "established" independent of them, and since no religion has been established, then that is moot. Wow. Either you don't believe that Christianity is the established religion of the country, therefore undermining your argument that you regularly make that we are a Christian nation, or you believe it has been established and the government can't respect that. Either way, it is a misreading of the Amendment. In the context of the text, "respecting" can be read as "in regard to". No laws can be made that will be construed as creating the appearance of establishing one faith as the accepted one. You may not agree with this reading, but it is certainly what COTUS scholars have determined it to mean, and it has been upheld repeatedly by both liberal and conservative SCOTUS decisions.
Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Free exercise protects the people and their worship choices, and it is a part of the COTUS. You are right to specify this clause in your argument, for it is this that protects your right to worship as you see fit. The courts have caught up to that long ago. But the free exercise is not the establishment clause. That clause is a restrictive clause on government intervention in the faith lives of the people. You have made it very plain in your last paragraph that you actually understand this, in spite of your political agenda to thwart it.
I invite you to share with us what the strawmen are that I have set up for you. The teacher with heretical ideas that they then teach the children is not a strawman, but an inevitable eventual reality of your idea. A better interpretation keeps the government out of it altogether, and leave faith in the hands of the people. Are you not the one who said no law is absolute? The right to exercise your religion freely is restricted when you choose to become a representative of the government to minds that cannot evaluate its value. But when you leave your work, your rights are the same as any other citizen, protected by the free exercise clause. As a teacher, you straddle the two clauses and are bound by both.
Exercise your faith. Enjoy it, share it, relish it. But God himself sees no value in a faith imposed. It is only the free choice to embrace his love and grace that give it any meaning or value.
Stand for freedom for all people of faith, and those without it. In such an environment, the truth will set the honest inquirer free.
Never sugested anything of the kind. You are grasping at straws. Of course some decisions are poor and get reversed. You have made no case that the current decision is unconstitutiional, and the current conservative court has repeatedly held up this interpretation.
Noone is trying to change the COTUS. It is being interpreted in a way you don't like, that's all. Your line that this is no different than the tyrants of history is hilarious and hyperbolic. Tyrants could not have their decisions reversed. You are simply trying to whip up the easily influenced. Good news for you. It frequently works. Rage on. We are not talking about suppression of religion by the government. We are talking about suppression of the government, which is what the establishment clause does.
Dred Scott got reversed. Good luck in your efforts. Even a conservative court won't support your radicalism.
I have to simply disagree with your analysis, and the courts have agreed with me. The establishment clause IS a restriction on government to use its power to influence the religious debate.
The point of court cases is to determine the constitutionality of this issue, and so far you are on the losing side on this issue.
If you believe these are the wrong decisions, then we are operating under a mistaken application of the COTUS. You are free to believe so, but you'll have to win that argument in court. But that also makes your example of teachers leading prayer up until the 60's irrelevant, because that could simply be a violation that no one was challenging. It's not evidence of what was right or wrong. That is for the courts to decide. I believe it was wrong, and the courts agree. We don't "know it's wrong" because we did it before. Poor argumentation. That proves nothing, except that we were either right then or we are right now.
To me it is a very silly notion to put a policy in place in an educational setting that will force you to constantly monitor something outside the necessary curriculum and force you to move your child if this element is not to your liking. Why not just leave it out. You won't be able to monitor what is being said anyway, so you have opened the door to all kinds of abuse by teachers with heretical ideas.
I feel blessed that the courts are not on your side on this one. The keenest legal minds available today regularly keep your unfair influence on little minds out of the state education process, and leave their spiritual education up to their parents. I know I want that in my hands, and I want math taught at school.
I suck at that.
I have no problem hearing religious ideas and appreciate free exercise. The free exercise gives the freedom to the people, and the establishment clause restricts that same freedom on the state.
I am always confused as to why this is even an issue for you. What is the value of turning over the religious indoctrination of our children to unqualified personnel with little or no background in things theological. What unique role does your trigonometry teacher bring to your prayer life? They are state employees in a public school, and have no right nor any particular skill to lead the children to God. The kids are free to do what they like autonomously from the the influential state employees that have the position to unfairly influence the kids. Once you give them the green light, you have no way of stopping what gets taught by any rogue teacher that you have turned loose. No establishment would mean no way of censoring those voices, and you'd be back to your silly notion that you would just continue to move your children from school to school to avoid teachers that offended you.
Why not just take personal responsibility for the spiritual formation of your children? That seems so much simpler, and clearly constitutional.
I can live with your argument here, as long as you understand that one of the limits on your First Amendment rights is the right to have government agents indoctrinating our children on the religious front. School personnel don't lead the kids in prayer.
What was the point of your comment "No right can be absolutized (sic)...Every right is constrained by law to some degree."
You are the one suggesting wiccans and atheists be restricted. Limits on rights, didn't you say. You don't really believe what you're espousing.
But no defense of your position that you could ban wiccan prayer?
What about Muslim prayer? Would you forbid that as well?
Ignoring the issue won't make it go away.
You know what I think? I think you know it can't be defended but you're stuck with the public proclamation of your position.
The people are protected in their free expression, but the state is not. Employees of the state are representative of it while performing their job, and thus can't get all the kids to kneel toward Mecca. When you are prepared to defend that, or teaching the kids proper adherence to Voodoo rituals because that's what the teacher believes, then come back and chat. What you really are advocating is a leap toward theocracy, but you can't defend it constitutionally.
At least that's what all the courts believe.
Why not keep it out of the hands of teachers, which is what the courts have decided, and take responsibility for the religious education of your own child? Why put everyone in the situation you describe, where you will have to be moving your child because they had to listen to someone who they perceive as having authority in their lives and yet have no theological education that would give their words any more authority than anyone else?
You seem to suggest that the law would step in and determine what prayers would be allowed and which forbidden, and you walk right into the establishment problem, don't you? Of course you do.
The public schools are for the public. All of the public. Do what you like in a private setting. The public school is for all Americans, not just the ones like yourself.
But you would have no control of what was said in prayer, would you? No establishment, right? I could lead the little ones any way I liked, couldn't I?
There is a reason it was the minority opinion in this case.
He lost that battle.
Would you be as gracious if I was a wiccan teacher praying to the mother God?
Ok, since you have backed off beating up on them I can stop having to defend them.
There is no doubt that schools have made some very bad decisions regarding what rights students have in expressing their religious beliefs. The very good news is that the courts have nearly always sided with the students, thanks to some robust attorney work. Schools over-step, the courts right the wrong, and the world turns. That is in the VAST majority of cases. This is the state of the state regarding the free expression clause.
But in regards to the establishment clause, the courts have chosen to err on the side of caution, wanting the state to give no hint of preference in regard to one faith tradition or another. Thus, representatives of the state are not allowed to lead the kiddies in worship, lest the implication be that this is the faith they should follow. I'm in total agreement with this, as children are vulnerable and teachers are symbols of authority, and those that have a different tradition are singled out in such a situation, to no purpose.
You may not like it, but that is how the courts have parsed the argument. I think it is exactly correct. Kids are free to pray anywhere at anytime.
Let's put it this way. If I was your kid's history teacher, would you want ME leading him in prayer?
The ACLU is very relevant because people like yourself who want to believe their faith is under attack often use them as a bogeyman, and it's simply a false premise. I can show you dozens of cases where they go to bat for the free exercise clause. Why should you find fault with that? It is something to celebrate, not mock. The ACLU as anti-Christ is a bogus argument. They are a vehement defender of free exercise, and a careful watchdog over establishment. That's just as it should be.
Iguess you can stick to that argument if the ACLU cases I cited are not allowed on this comment tree. Such cowardice.
Not on public prayer, but publicly lead prayer. The inference that has repeatedly been upheld in the courts is that public officials leading prayer implies an endorsement of a religion. What's the problem? Do we Christians need to have government workers endorsing our religion to legitimize it?
Did you enjoy the article?
New International Version (©1984)
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." Matthew 6:5
There's your bigotry, if that is what you choose to call scripture. There is plenty more in Matthew and Mark. Would you like me to show them to you? Or will you choose not to post this comment as well?
If you have the courage, here's an article from Christianity Today that you might find interesting.
There is no restriction on prayer, just on prayer led by public employees which implies an establishment. The ACLU has protected the rights of kids to pray at school.
The bible does speak of those that make a public spectacle of their prayer lives.
This is silly. There is no absolute prohibition against prayer in schools, only publicly lead prayer. No one can be stopped from praying at any time or anywhere. No one will try. You just can't do it over the loudspeaker or lead others in it. Where's the harm, folks? Jesus said to go into a room, close the door and pray to your Father in private. What is the great need to make it a public spectacle?
Read my hub here. See why America is really a great ally to the Christian AND to the non-religious.
>"However, "separation of church and state" does not mean the separation of religion and politics"<
If by politics you mean government, then somebody forgot to tell James Madison. Madison said this in his "Detached Memoranda":
"The danger of silent accumulations & encroachments by Ecclesiastical Bodies have not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S. Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
As you can see by the very guy that wrote the first Amendment, Madison was concerned over what he considered the "danger" of enchroachment of Ecclesiasticl Bodies into the structure of Government. So I guess my question is who should I listen to on this subject? Your interpretation of what he wrote, or the words of the man who wrote it in the first place?
You all crack me up. Blame it on the athiests. Not on other religions that might have been offended..
The scariest part is not that you are peddling this stuff, its that you actually believe it.
Have you even examined the historical records? Why many people came to the colonies back in the 1600's in the first place? Leaving a place where people were killing people, being persecuted, for not having the same faith as the state.
Our founding fathers wanted to be sure that our new government never had a state religion. No one had the right, not even the state, to tell someone else how to believe, or not believe.
What is at odds is Christianity and The Seperation of Church and State. Christians are told to "spread the word of God", which most due in many aspects of their lives, which to many includes pushing it into government.
They could care less that is not want the founding fathers wanted. They could care less it violates Seperation of Church and State. Just spread the "word"
around as far and as wide as they can.
The most important body of writing to me is the Constitution. Written by men. What is the most important body of writing to Christians? Since we
know its not the Constitution, I'm going to go out on a
limb and say they don't have it's best interest at heart.
And for the record, we DO respect all religions. But there is a fine line for allowing them to practice their religion and not allowing them to interfere with the free speach and expression of others while they practice. On this subject, you are opening up such a big can of worms it would take ten articles this same size to get into it. But your generalized statement is flawed.
If you want prayer in school, have it in your church ran school. But in public schools, where you have a mixture of all different cultures and backgrounds and beliefs, and even non beliefs, prayer does not belong.
Impose or allow? That is the question........
The term " seperation of church and state" DOES NOT appear in the USofA constitution........the idea reflected, is that the government may NOT impose a religion.
Everything about our founding fathers, and leaders of the time will not be found in either the Constitution or Declaration of Independence........there is far too much to be recorded there..You and I must research, read diaries, letters, newspaper accounts of the era.....we must SEARCH......
Does another "religion" have the same freedom of expression that I enjoy.......yes, I think it does......but not to the extent that it suppresses mine.
You are allowed to believe what you believe, you are not allowed to suppress what I believe.
That seems fair to me.......
No, I do not want my child, instructed in prayer by another faith.......so I will give you, a " moment of meditation". What more do you expect me to give without sacrificing self?
In order to live under a democarcy, the law of the land ( majority) must prevail........if your "religion" is in oppostion to the laws of the land......you best seek another home.


text:
Microsoft iSCSI Software Target 3.3 for Windows Server 2008R2
You got it, you can now download iSCSI Target software for free, i believe it used to be Starwind iSCI Target software, which was then bought out by Microsoft.
The Microsoft iSCSI Software Target has been available for production use as part of Windows Storage Server since early 2007. It has also been available for development and test use by MSDN and TechNet subscribers starting in May 2009. However, until now, there was no way to use the Microsoft iSCSI Software Target in production on a regular server running Windows Server 2008 R2. This new download offers exactly that.
Now available as a public download, the software is essentially the same software that ships with Windows Storage Server 2008 R2. Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 and the public download package will be refreshed (kept in sync) with any software fixes and updates. Those updates are described here.
Check it out and let me know what you think.