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Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Annual Public Hearing
August 28, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 28th day of August 2002, there came to be heard matters under the regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Texas, beginning at 2:20 p.m. to wit: APPEARANCES: THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION: CHAIRMAN: Katharine Armstrong, Austin, Texas Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland, Texas Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas Philip Montgomery, Dallas, Texas Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT: Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. LIST OF SPEAKERS: 1. Ellis Gilleland, "Texas-Animals", P.O. Box 9001, Austin, Texas 78766 Matter of Interest: TPWD activities and responsibilities 2. Bob Nunley, Box 308, Sabinal, Texas 78881 Matter of Interest: Trans-Pecos MLD 3. Dan Allen Hughes, Jr., 307 Grandview, San Antonio, Texas 78209, Matter of Interest: MLD Program for mule deer in West Texas 4. Mark Porter, Gator Farms, P.O. Box 1265. Anahuac, Texas 77514 Matter of Interest: Hatchings 5. Larry Tatom, Houston Safari Club, 4615 S.W. Freeway, Suite 805, Houston, Texas 77027 Matter of Interest: Hunting in general 6. Derry Gardner, Texas Wildlife Association, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San Antonio, Texas 78216 Matter of Interest: Wildlife 7. Kirby Brown, Texas Wildlife Association, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San Antonio, Texas 78216 Matter of Interest: Wildlife 8. Gene Heinemann, Native Prairies Association of Texas. 4507 Sidereal, Austin, Texas 78727 Matter of Interest: Native prairies for wildlife habitat 9. Pat Murray, Coastal Conservation Association, 6919 Port West Dr., Ste. 100. Houston, Texas 77024 Matter of Interest: TPWD involvement in water (illegible) reduction & crab management 10. Dana Larson, 182 Lilac Ridge, Conroe, Texas 77304 Matter of Interest: Conversion of I-45 causeway rubble into artificial reefs 11. William Brad Woods. 214 South 21st St.. Temple, Texas 76504, Matter of Interest: Shrimping (Sports) 12. Walter Zimmerman, Texas Shrimp Association. P.O. Drawer AF. Port Isabel, Texas 78578 Matter of Interest: (did not indicate) 13. John Valentino, Eagle Point Fishing Camp, Inc., 16426 Clearcrest, Houston, Texas 77059 Matter of Interest: License Sales-Speckled Trout 14. Leonard W. Ranne, Freshwater Anglers, 7880 Carr St., Dallas, Texas 75227 Matter of Interest: Outreach 15. Will Kirkpatrick, The Fishing Schools, Rt. 1, Box 138dc, Broaddus, Texas 75929 Matter of Interest: Freshwater fishing 16. Gary Van Gelder, 10919 Brit Oak, Houston, Texas 77079 Matter of Interest: Freshwater fishing 17. R.C. Blundell,Central TX Association of Bass Clubs, 6204 Dove CT, Austin, Texas 78744 Matter of Inerest: Grass Carp (Against) 18. Ed Parten, TBBU, 110 Lisa Lane, Kingwood, Texas 77339 Matter of Interest: Inland Fisheries 19. Jim Murray, Falcon Lake & Zapata County Chamber of Commerce, P.O. Box 284, Margarita Road & Hwy. 83, Falcon Heights, Texas 78545 Matter of Interest: Falcon Lake quality of fishing, assess, and enforce of existing regulations 20. Elroy Krueger, The Average Fisherman, HCR 71, Box 49, Three Rivers, Texas 7801 Matter of Interest: Stat of freshwater fishing 21. Larry Bridgeman, Falcon Lake (illegible), 2195 S. Hwy. 83, Box F-10, Zapata, Texas 78076 Matter of Interest: Economics of deterioration of Falcon Fishery 22. Frank Goll, Texas Association of Bass Clubs, 3846 Briarhaven, San Antonio, Texas 78247 Matter of Interest: TPWD stocking of Texas lakes 23. Ron Werner, April Plaza Marina, Inc., P.O. Box 9071/17742 Hwy. 105 W., Montgomery, Texas 77356 Matter of Interest: Against -- Loss of revenue 24. David Stewart, SMART, 3415 Shenandoah Dr., Cedar Park, Texas 78613 Matter of Interest: Inland Fisheries 25. Karen Hadden, SEED Coalition, 611 S. Congress, #200, Austin, Texas 78704 Matter of Interest: Mercury contamination of fish, notification of fish consumption advisories/bans posting of signs-Web-site link to Dept. of Health- please improve 26. Pam Lawrie, Hunters for the Hungry, 2512 IH 35 South, Austin, Texas 78704 Matter of Interest: For -- Hunters for the Hungry 27. Scott Thrash, Hunters for the Hungry, 2512 IH 35 South, Ste. 100, Austin, Texas 78704 Matter of Interest: Hunters for the Hungry 28. Jaye Lycan, Hunters for the Hungry, 2512 IH 35 South, Ste.100, Austin, TX 78704 Matter of Interest: Hunters for the Hungry 29. Sylvan Rossi, Korima Foundation, 9350 Adagio Lane, Houston, Texas 77040 Matter of Interest: Inner City youth participation state parks 30. Jim Carr, Korima Foundation, 1019 Valley Acres Rd., Houston, Texas 77062 Matter of Interest: (did not indicate) 31. Art Pasley, Cast for Kids, 1529 Sunview Dr., Dallas, Texas 75253 Matter of Interest: Outreach funds 32. Helen Holdworth, Texas Brigades, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San Antonio, Texas 78216 Matter of Interest: Brigades and cooperative education 33. Whitney Marion, Texas Brigades, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San Antonio, Texas 78216 Buckskin Brigades & Youth conversation education 34. Anson Howard, Texas Brigades-A Cooperative Education Program, 401 Isom Rd., Ste. 237, San Antonio, Texas 78216 Matter of Interest: Bobwhite Brigade & Youth Education Initiatives 35. Dr. Robert Brown, Texas A&M University, 2258 TAMU, College Station, Texas 77843-2258 Matter of Interest: TPWD support of research and education 36. Neal Wilkins, Texas A&M University, Texas Cooperative Extension, 2258 TAMU, College Station, Texas 77843-2258 Matter of Interest: Outreach 37. Susie Marek, Friends of Inks Lake State Park, 1316 E. Logan St., Round Rock, Texas 78664 Matter of Interest: Against -- Friends future 38. Jeannie Dullnig ,Stewards of the Nueces, 4 Dorchester Place, San Antonio, Texas 78209 Matter of Interest: Protection of state owned rivers 39. John O. Robinson, 6712 N.E. Dr., Austin, Texas 78723 Matter of Interest: Against -- Motorized vehicles using river beds 40. Hugh "Preston" Perron, Llano River, 11800 E. St. Hwy. 29, Llano, Texas Matter of Interest: Against -- Motor vehicles on river 41. Trey Berndt ('Burnt), 8859 Mt. Ridge Circle, Austin, Texas 78759 Matter of Interest: Off road vehicles in streambeds 42. Sky Lewey, Nueces River Authority, Box 349, Uvalde, Texas 78801 Matter of Interest: Against -- in state streams 43. Charles Draper, Steward of Nueces, 4609 Trail Crest Circle, Austin, Texas 78735 Matter of Interest: 4X4 in river basin 44. Susanna Freduig, Stewards, P.O. Box 1, Uvalde, Texas 78802 Matter of Interest: Keep out of river! 45. David K. Langford, Texas Wildlife Association Matter of Interest: Riverbed & thanking Commission 46. Bobby Beamer, TMTC & NOHVCC, 3310 Long Shadows, Spring, Texas 77380 For Matter of Interest: OHV Parks-RTF-Item #7 47. Allen L. Mize, 112 Larkspur, Uvalde, Texas 78801 Matter of Interest: For regulating -- Nueces River off road vehicle abuse 48. Carol L. Smith, AMA Community Council-TX Hill Country, 1440 CR 270, Mico, Texas 78056 Matter of Interest: Against -- ORV's in Riverbeds 49. Nick Smith, AMA, 1440 CR 270, Mico, Texas 78056 Matter of Interest: Against -- 50. George Garner, Public Lands, 123 W. Hutchins, San Antonio, Texas 78221 Matter of Interest: Public Lands 51. Raynice Shudde, Stewards of the Nueces, 111 Bent Oak Trail, Uvalde, Texas 78801 Matter of Interest: Protecting the Nueces-restrictions-vehicles in rivers 52. Heinz Aeschbach, Frequent park user, citizen interested in environment and quality of life, 2102 A Hemedale Dr., Austin, Texas 78704 Testify: Matter of Interest: Problems with TX Parks & Wildlife Department Land & Water Resources Conservation Recreation Plan 53. Margaret Aeschbach, Concerned Citizen, 2102 A Homedale Dr., Austin, Texas 78704 Matter of Interest: 1. Land and Water Conservation & Recreation Plan 2. McKinney Falls State Park 54. Kyle McCain, City of Mejia, 101 S. McKinney/P.O. Box 207, Mejia, Texas 76667 Matter of Interest: # 15 For keeping it a State Park; Land and Water Resources Conservation Recreation Plan. Confederate Reunion Ground 55. Janice Bezanson, Texas Committee on Natural Resources, 601 Westlake Dr., Austin, Texas 78746 Matter of Interest: Plan, general 56. Terry Colley,-Deputy Executive Director, Texas Historical Commission, P.O. Box 12276, Austin, Texas 78711 Matter of Interest: Nuetral -- Historic Sites 57. Jay Kane, Native Prairie Association of Texas, 8565 Red Willow Dr., Austin, Texas 78736 Matter of Interest: Conservation easements 58. Mary Tallent, 406 N. Cummings, Alvarado, Texas 76009 Matter of Interest: Mejia State Park 59. Jack Love, P.O. Box 6301, Mico, Texas 78056 Matter of Interest: Fences-Public access-Diverse Lake-Medina County 60. Wright Friday, Stewards of Nueces, P.O. Box 1, Uvalde, Texas 78801 Matter of Interest: Against -- ORV traffic rivers-keep out! 61. Dianne Wassenich, San Marcos River Foundation Matter of Interest: Water, Rivers, 4X4's in rivers 1 PUBLIC HEARING 2:20 p.m. 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: This meeting is 2 called to order. Before proceeding with any business, I 3 believe Mr. Cook has a statement to make. 4 MR. COOK: Madamee Chairman. Thank you 5 very much. A public notice of this meeting containing 6 all items on the proposed agenda has been filed in the 7 office of the Secretary of State, as required by Chapter 8 551, Government Code referred to as the Open Meetings 9 Law. I would like for this action to be noted in the 10 official record of this meeting. Throughout this 11 meeting, a few rules and guidelines that we'll go by, 12 folks. An individual wishing to speak before the 13 Commission should fill out a -- one of the little forms 14 that we have here and submit them to us so that we can 15 call your name and get you up here to speak. We welcome 16 you here. Each person will be allowed to speak, one at 17 a time, from the podium when recognized by the chairman. 18 Speaking time may be limited either due to the unusual 19 large number of persons wishing to speak, the long 20 agenda, or any other reason being necessary by the 21 chairman. What we are going to do is -- we're going to 22 allow you about three minutes -- this old clock 23 here -- timing is important. So if you will -- in 24 order that we get time for everyone to speak and be 25 heard. If you will please kind of follow this little 2 1 clock here. Any written documents that you may have or 2 the Commission should be given to department staff -- 3 take them immediately to my right here. If a 4 commissioner asks a question or wants to discuss among 5 themselves about the topic, that time will not be 6 counted against you. The chairman is in charge of the 7 meeting and will direct the order of the meeting and 8 recognize the people to be heard. When your name is 9 called, please come to the podium, state your name, who 10 you represent, if anyone other than yourself. Please 11 limit your remarks to the item that you signed up for. 12 In case of the annual public hearing, you may speak on 13 any item that you are here today for -- you may speak 14 on any item within the jurisdiction of this commission. 15 Profanity, heckling, threatening, or abusive language, 16 shouting or any other disruptive or defensive behavior 17 will be grounds for immediate ejection from the meeting. 18 Madamee Chairman. 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Mr. Cook. 20 I will mention two names at a time so that the person 21 following the person speaking has time to prepare to 22 come forward. The first speaker will be Ellis 23 Gilleland, followed by Bob Numley. 24 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis 25 Gilleland, a private citizen. I'm speaking for 3 1 "Texas-Animals" myself. "Texas-Animals" is an animal 2 rights organization on the internet. I've given you a 3 handout. The handout is a copy of a letter that I sent 4 to each one of you already on the 9th of August by 5 certified mail. This is a letter which has two 6 attachments. The first attachment is a letter that I 7 wrote to Colonel Stinebaugh requesting that I be allowed 8 to present evidence of poaching at Choke Canyon State 9 Park to him. That was the 19th of June. He denied that 10 request. He will not accept evidence and testimony of 11 poaching. I then wrote a letter, certified letter, 12 which you have in your hand, dated the 29th of July, to 13 Director Cook. And I again asked for an appointment to 14 submit evidence to him in regard to poaching by 15 Texas Parks and Wildlife officials at Choke Canyon 16 State Park. I asked to make a sworn statement. I asked 17 to present physical evidence of the poaching. And I 18 asked to show the videotape, which backs up my sworn 19 statement. He denied that. He would not give me access 20 to him to present the information to him. I then turned 21 to the Parks and Wildlife Commission, yourselves, on the 22 9th of August with a letter certified mail. The title 23 is, request for appointment to present various evidence 24 of poaching at Choke Canyon State Park by Texas Parks and 25 Wildlife officials. I, again, asked for permission to 4 1 make a sworn statement to you to present physical 2 evidence and make a sworn statement. And all I have 3 received from you is silence. I have received no answer 4 back from any of you. 5 And I'd -- like I'd like to point out one 6 thing. That you people are deaf on some yahoo in East 7 Texas that's poaching a whatever. But when it comes to 8 your own people, it's just like Enron, Worldcom, 9 whoever. All these people that are following all sorts 10 of unethical practices as a corporate business is being 11 done right here, too. You're very stringent on people 12 that are not a member of your organization, but you're 13 not cleaning up your own house. You're allowing your 14 own officials less than 200 yards, between 100 and 200 15 yards, from the park director's house is where all this 16 poaching is going; on white-tailed deer, dove, quail, 17 you name it. I, again, ask you for permission to 18 present this information to you. And hang me by my 19 thumbs if you find that I'm lying to you. Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Bob Nunley, 21 Dan Allen Hughes, Jr. 22 MR. NUNLEY: My name is Bob Nunley. I'm 23 a rancher from south Texas. We also operate in the west 24 Texas panhandle. I'm here to request the MLD permits 25 and extended seasons be made available to the 5 1 Trans-Pecos region. It's -- the MLD is a tool we've 2 used in south Texas with great success. We just would 3 like to have it available out west. We know it's been 4 tried -- or various other approaches have been tried 5 before. But we feel like the MLD with its limits to the 6 harvest and the extended season addresses a lot of the 7 complaints out there. The extended season allows us to 8 do a better job of harvesting the property, rather than 9 trying to do everything in a two-week, three-weekend 10 season. I'd like to see an extended season possibly as 11 much as the white -- running concurrently with the 12 white tail season that is already in west Texas. That's 13 basically my request. 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 15 Mr. Hughes. Then Mark Porter. 16 MR. HUGHES: I'm Dan Allen Hughes. I'm 17 from San Antonio. And as Mr. Nunley just proposed, I'd 18 like to make the same proposal, that the commission 19 consider extending the MLD Program, Managed Land Deer 20 Program, to west Texas for mule deer. In 1996 when the 21 MLD program was originally proposed, mule deer were 22 include in the original proposal. But there was quite a 23 bit of opposition to that in west Texas at that time. 24 The hearing didn't go over very well. I think through 25 education process and through just learning more about 6 1 what the program is about, the ranchers in west Texas 2 landowners are now in favor of the -- of MLD. Two of 3 the things I don't think they understood in the 4 originally -- was, first of all, this is a voluntary 5 program. If you don't want your ranch to be in this 6 program, you don't have to. The second thing I heard 7 from several landowners is, well, we're going to give 8 you a longer season and you're going to wipe out all 9 your deer. Well, there's nothing further from the 10 truth. MLD is going to require a biologist to survey 11 your property. You're going to have permits given as 12 per the biologist's recommendation. So there's really 13 very little chance of over harvesting the deer. 14 Actually, today, under the 16-day season, any -- any 15 hunter -- every hunter can kill one mule deer. But 16 there's no limit to how many hunters can come on any 17 ranch. So I could take a hundred hunters to my ranch to 18 shoot a hundred deer if I wanted to. That's not -- 19 under the MLD, you're going to have permits. You're 20 going to be restricted to the number of deer you could 21 harvest. I, like Mr. Nunley, also think a good season 22 would be to run concurrent with the white-tail season in 23 west Texas, which this year is November the 2nd to 24 January the 5th. Thank you, very much. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I would encourage 7 1 you all to be in touch with the Trans-Pecos advisory 2 group which I formed about a year ago to address such 3 issues and air these sort of things. You -- these are 4 folks you know and I think Mr. McCarty could help you 5 get the telephone numbers to -- to get in touch with 6 those folks. 7 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madame Chair. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner 9 Fitzsimons. 10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: If I may -- and 11 this may be a question for Jerry Cooke, if he's there. 12 But I understand that MLDs would require a wildlife 13 management plan, and our goal to is to increase the 14 number of wildlife management plans in the Trans-Pecos 15 area. 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: That's correct. 17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Is that right, 18 Gary, it would require that? 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I think it would be 20 very difficult to increase our wildlife management plan 21 from 14 million to 28 million over the next ten years 22 without the cooperation of the Trans-Pecos. 23 Mark Porter and Larry Tatom. 24 MR. PORTER: I'm here on behalf of 25 alligator hatchlings. I want to be able to sell them 8 1 out of state. I'm kind of nervous. 2 Anyway, first of all, I am Mark Porter. 3 I'm one of four farmers probably left in the state of 4 Texas. I'm the alligator nuisance control, basically, 5 for the state of Texas. I'm the only processing plant 6 left in the state of Texas. One of two buyers left in 7 the state of Texas. And one of three egg gatherers left 8 in the state of Texas. The alligator business isn't 9 thriving. And I would like to -- the law was passed 10 years ago that we couldn't sell hatchlings out of state 11 without the board's permission or something like that. 12 And, by being able to sell hatchlings out of state, I 13 can get more for them. And we're able to take 14 hatchlings from out of state into Texas from Louisiana, 15 and we need to keep that open, too. And if I can't go 16 with my hatchlings into Louisiana and keep some of these 17 guys happy, they may shut there's down coming into us. 18 And the few farmers we do have left in the State of 19 Texas are able to -- well, they need more than what the 20 egg gatherers can supply. The three egg 21 gatherer's this year, we may get 10,000 eggs. And one 22 of the farms is wanting 20,000. So if he couldn't get 23 his from out of state, he would be kind of dead in the 24 water on his farm growing. But I need to be able to 25 move them out of state because I can get a little more 9 1 for them. And you've got to work with Louisiana because 2 they're the big dog and we're the little tip of the 3 tail. And they've got it to where I can't hardly move 4 my farm gators because they'll grade them down. But if 5 I could sell them hatchlings, they may be able to let me 6 move my farm gators a little bit. 7 Anyway, I just want -- would like for it 8 it come up that I could move hatchlings out of state, if 9 we could get that on the document or something. Thank 10 you, very much. 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, 12 Mr. Porter. 13 Larry Tatom and then Derry Gardner. 14 MR. TATOM: Madame Chairman, members of 15 the commission. My name is Larry Tatom. I'm the 16 executive director of the Houston Safari Club. I'm here 17 today to acknowledge and appreciate the efforts of the 18 department for improving youth hunting opportunities 19 across the state. Houston Safari Club has been involved 20 with Texas Parks and Wildlife and also especially with 21 the Operation Game Thief program, since it began. And, 22 in fact, our treasurer, Ray Petty, was the coordinator 23 for the most recent Operation Game Thief fund raiser in 24 Houston. 25 On a personal note, I was a Texas Parks 10 1 and Wildlife employee, although it was a number of 2 decades ago. And I'd like to say, personally, that I 3 appreciate the work of the employees across the state. 4 We thank you for the work you're doing for sportsmen and 5 for improving hunting opportunities for all Texans. 6 Thank you. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: And we thank you. 8 Derry Gardner, please and then 9 Kirby Brown. 10 MR. GARDNER: Madame chairman, 11 commissioners, I thank you for the opportunity to be 12 here. I'm also here to thank y'all all for a wonderful 13 job you've been doing. I appreciate everything that 14 you've done with us and partnerships at TWA. We have 15 over 5,000 members, and they all appreciate it. We 16 appreciate partnerships with the Texas Big Game Awards 17 and the Youth Hunting Program. 18 Madame Chairman, on a personal note, I 19 appreciate you spending time with us at our convention, 20 and my family and I appreciate that. One other thing 21 that I want to thank y'all very much for is not getting 22 too mad at us for stealing Kirby away. We appreciate 23 having him and thank y'all, very much. 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Speaking of Kirby, 25 and then Gene Heinemann. 11 1 MR. BROWN: Thank you, very much. My 2 name is Kirby Brown. I'm the executive vice-president. 3 Derry is our current president. He didn't mention that, 4 but does a great job for us. Madame Chairman, 5 commissioners, on behalf of the Texas Wildlife 6 Association, I too just want to echo what Derry said. 7 Thanks so much for your continued cooperation and help 8 in all the wildlife issues that we have in Texas. Y'all 9 have done an incredible job in dealing with some very 10 difficult issues. And especially with CWD as the most 11 recent example of how to work cooperatively with people 12 and move forward in a really, I guess, partner fashion 13 in how we did that. And we really do appreciate that. 14 And speaking of partnerships, the 15 partnerships that we have with the Texas Big Game Awards 16 and seeing these incredible heads out here in the 17 hallway. It's just great to see that, because of the 18 quality of land management and habitat management that 19 went into that on those lands. And many of those deer 20 and antelope do not have any high fences. Okay? So 21 there's no reason to worry about that. It's the habitat 22 management that's going on that creates those types of 23 animals, good wildlife and population management. And I 24 want to recognize Gary Graham and Mike Berger and also 25 TPWD employee, Jerry Warden, who heads up our Texas Youth 12 1 Hunting program, another great partnership that we have 2 together. And we really appreciate that partnership and 3 the amount of work that's gone into taking kids into 4 hunts in the field and appreciate several of you on the 5 commission that have asked the kids to come out on your 6 ranches and be a part of that Youth Hunting Program. 7 It's a great opportunity. 8 And then we're looking forward to a 9 partnership in education, in the education arena. And I 10 appreciate Steve Hall and Nancy Herron who are hiring a 11 new employee here in the next -- well, I don't know when 12 it will be announced but sometime soon. That 13 employee -- we've offered a place in our office for the 14 employee to create a closer partnership on that 15 education initiative and in working with you and other 16 education initiatives that are coming out. We're 17 looking forward to that. And we just appreciate all 18 that you've done and thank you, very much. 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Gene Heinemann and 20 then Pat Murray. 21 MR. HEINEMANN: Madame Chairman, 22 commission members, I'm Gene Heinemann with president of 23 The Native Prairie Association. And I'd like to, as 24 some of the others have done, commend you for all the 25 good programs you have and all the hard work you and 13 1 your staff have done. It makes a lot of difference. 2 And particularly I've notice that in the last few years, 3 particularly the wildlife tax exemption has really made 4 a big difference. And that's something that we, as the 5 Prairie Association, are really working hard at. And we 6 kind of formed the basis for wildlife habitat in that 7 we're going out and securing the plant material 8 for -- to restore wildlife habitats. And, in particular, 9 we have started these tall grass prairie remnant 10 surveys, which we already mapped a few counties. But it's going 11 to take us a long time to map 30 more counties in the 12 state. And we'd like to encourage y'all to help or 13 takeover this process of doing the rest of the surveys. 14 You know, it takes about $3,000 to do a county. And -- 15 but this is a basis for having enough plant material to 16 restore Wildlife habitats. And to follow up with that 17 conservation easements are what we're trying to do, to 18 get -- to secure some of these remnant prairie -- 19 prairies that we're surveying. And this is something 20 that's going to take a lot of time, a lot of funds to 21 buy. Normally, we take -- we offer a landowner 50 22 percent of the market value of that land for a 23 conservation easement. But Jay Kane will touch more 24 deeply on the surveys and the conservation easements 25 later on. 14 1 One thing I'd like to mention is that 2 we'd like to encourage Parks and Wildlife to do more 3 prairie restoration in the -- in the parks. In 4 particular, to educate the public about the many 5 benefit -- many benefits of the prairies and particularly 6 teaching them how to restore wildlife habitat. That's 7 all I have to say. Thanks. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 9 Pat Murray, Dana Larson. 10 MR. MURRAY: Madame Chairman, 11 commissioners, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to 12 you today. My name is Pat Murray. I'm the executive 13 director of the Coastal Conservation Association of 14 Texas. I want to speak to you about a couple things 15 briefly today. First, is to compliment you on your work 16 in managing Texas bay shrimping. This is not only doing 17 great benefit for Texas waters, for recreational 18 anglers, for the resources as a whole, but it's setting 19 a precedent for other states. As I travel the Gulf 20 States, I've heard it from Mississippi, Louisiana, the 21 eyes of the Gulf are looking at what's being done here. 22 The same thing is held true crab trap management. 23 Parks and Wildlife's help through this last spring in 24 helping CCA Texas to facilitate an abandoned crab trap 25 pick up. It was monumental, not only what it did for 15 1 the resource, but in setting a precedent through other 2 Gulf waters. 3 My last is almost a request. I request 4 y'all continue to work with us as we try to guarantee 5 fresh water inflow and quality and quantity for our 6 Texas bays. It truly is the alpha and omega of our bay 7 eco and critical to the future of it. Thank you, again, 8 for setting up this forum and giving all these user 9 groups an opportunity to speak to you. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Dana Larson and 11 William Brad Woods. 12 MR. LARSON: Commissioners, Mr. Cook, 13 good afternoon. I, too -- my name is Dana Larson. And 14 I, too, would like to commend the department on one of 15 the most successful programs that you do have, and this 16 is the Artificial Reef Program. I'm here today to 17 encourage you to really see if we can make sure that we 18 have one more opportunity come to fruition. And this is 19 the conversion of the Galveston -- the Galveston 20 Causeway rubble into an artificial reef. There -- it's 21 got something like 8,000 feet on each of the two 22 causeways. And that would make one tremendous 23 artificial reef offshore. I did send some comments on 24 this to y'all, so I do hope you can read them and study 25 those. Thank you. 16 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: William Brad Woods 2 and Walter Zimmerman. 3 MR. WOODS: Madame chairman, 4 Commissioners. I'm William B. Woods. I live in Temple, 5 Texas. And I represent myself. I am a sports shrimper, 6 strictly, sportsman trawl or personal bait shrimp trawl. 7 Not commercial. And I've been doing it since about 8 1990. It's very difficult out there. I pulled a trawl 9 that is eight and three quarter inch stretched mesh, and 10 I just bought a new one. And when that thing gets 11 wet -- it measures eight and three quarter now, and when 12 it gets wet, it's nine. That's a big shrimp to go 13 through that thing. I don't catch any shrimp. This 14 year, the season opened, I went down there. I pulled 15 for about six hours, caught a quart. The next day, I 16 went out. We pulled again, we didn't catch a pint. 17 Loaded and went home. I thought maybe it was the moon. 18 We didn't -- waited until the moon changed. I went 19 back. We didn't have any better luck. The commercial 20 boats are catching, but I'm not. My thoughts on that 21 subject is, I would like an opportunity, a little better 22 opportunity, to catch some shrimp. If -- at the -- in 23 October -- after October 15, I believe it is, they 24 change the commercial man can change to a smaller mesh. 25 I'd like to see the possibility of a sportsman, which is 17 1 only allowed 15 pounds per person, per day, to have that 2 smaller mesh year-round when he can shrimp to give him 3 an opportunity to at least catch some shrimp. There's 4 times -- there's occasions, if you catch everything 5 perfect, you can catch shrimp. But, as a general rule, 6 you go out there today, you might catch five pounds. 7 Tomorrow, the pressure has hit them from every which 8 way, they leave, and you're not going to catch any 9 shrimp. I'd just like a little better opportunity. 10 Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Mr. Zimmerman and 12 then John Valentino. 13 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Madame Chairman and 14 commissioners, I appreciate the opportunity to come 15 before you this morning -- or this afternoon. This is, 16 for a change, it's not going to be complaining too much. 17 We want to express our appreciation. And that's not 18 normal for the shrimp industry, I don't think. I do 19 want to inform you though that the shrimp industry is in 20 pretty sad shape right now. We're having a lot of 21 foreign import pond-raised shrimp. A friend of mine 22 visited -- came back from Vietnam last week and said 23 that they've all converted their rice paddies to shrimp 24 ponds and wish now that they were raising rice because 25 rice is high and shrimp are cheap. We do have a 18 1 problem. And we're having trouble getting Food and Drug 2 to examine the shrimp, because they are coming in 3 contaminated with the drugs that they use to keep from 4 having diseases. And there's a residue left. And one 5 of them right now is chlora -- chlora ama -- what you 6 call them? Antibiotic. 7 MR. ZIMMERMAN: It's caused by 8 antibiotics. And it's more than just one antibiotic. 9 We're having a lot of trouble. Anyway, prices are 10 depressed. You could see a collapse in our industry. I 11 know you've probably heard this before, but it is pretty 12 serious. Average price right now is 2.75 to $3.00 a 13 pound, which normally is -- the shrimp is maybe 4.50. 14 So we're only making two-thirds of what we should really 15 be making. If fuel goes up, you'll see a lot of boats 16 tied up. Hal Osburn -- at our last meeting on the 25th, 17 the shrimp advisory brought in the governor's aide, 18 brought the health department, Texas Department of 19 Agriculture to see what they could do to help us. We do 20 need some type of marking, and TDA does have a program. 21 For every dollar we contribute, they'll contribute the 22 same amount. The oyster industry does have that 23 right now. We don't -- Hal does not want to try to 24 collect money through unloading -- afraid it would 25 destroy his unloading figures -- so that he would have 19 1 better records as far as protecting what to do. It was 2 mentioned maybe using a percentage of license or maybe a 3 legislator proposal. 4 Next, one thing we have been asking for a 5 long time to seed the bays with shrimp. We seed them 6 with red fish. We seed them with trout. We'd like to 7 feed them with a little bit more. China, right now, I 8 understand, is doing that. And they have increased 9 their production. I don't know for sure. There -- 10 Gary Graham is -- is our marine agent. He made a trip 11 all the way from Florida to Texas, coming all the way 12 through all the states, and everybody that he talked to 13 said it may be time for limited entry. And I'm talking 14 about state and federal. A lot of people in my industry 15 don't like to hear this because it means more 16 regulations. And we have a lot of them. It's not just 17 Parks and Wildlife. It's coast guard. It's just 18 everything. But times are going to have to change. I 19 think there's too many boats. And, somehow, they'll 20 have a buy back program. The state -- this will not be a 21 state, it will have to be a federal to really get rid of 22 them. 23 And the last thing, I want to thank you 24 so much for your contribution for -- towards the Ridley 25 Program in Mexico. Y'all are going to get the Ridley 20 1 Award tomorrow. They are doing a lot of good things 2 down there. I think they could do that on the 3 leatherback, too, if they could just go back to where 4 those eggs are laid and get the -- get more small 5 turtles out. That's all I have. And I do thank you 6 very much for your time. Appreciate it. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 8 John Valentino and L. W. -- is it Ranne or Ranne. 9 MR. VALENTINO: My name is 10 John Valentino, and I represent Eagle Point Fishing Camp 11 in Galveston Bay. And I want to thank Mr. Cook and 12 Ms. Armstrong for inviting us here today to have a 13 little public input. And I think a whole lot of us have 14 been doing that for the last year. I presently operate 15 Eagle Point Fishing Camp in San Leon, which is in 16 Galveston Bay. And I have a background in commercial 17 shrimp fishing, as well. As well as serving the sport 18 fishing public. My first concern today is to discuss 19 the problems that we have created with the saltwater 20 fishing stamp. The first problem obviously is that salt 21 water fishing is more expensive. And the original 22 purpose for the saltwater stamp has been lost. We were 23 originally, I think, were going to get more game wardens 24 on the coast. And I believe that's pretty much been put 25 in the background. Second, the saltwater stamp causes 21 1 a lot of confusion. And this is the case where simple 2 is really better. 3 Third, the price of the temporary 4 stamps -- this pushes the price of our temporary stamps 5 to a level which we, as license retailers, are observing 6 price resistance every day. And it is, in my opinion, 7 costing the state money. And I want to bring out some 8 points to you that you probably already realize. The 9 three-day resident license is ten dollars, but with a 10 saltwater stamp it's 20. A five-day nonresident 11 license is 20. The stamp, it's 30. 14-day, it's 12. 12 And now it's 22. So we have a little confusion when 13 we're selling our license and not -- last but not least, 14 the senior exempt license, which is a little bit of a 15 misnomer, is $6. Now it's 16. These are some items 16 that we are having problems with as licensed retailers. 17 And I ask the commission to consider that, if it is wise 18 to ask citizens to pay $20 to fish or to crab in their 19 own public waters for one day? The results are that 20 many people do not use their own state resource. Or 21 that they use the resource and don't buy a license. Or 22 they do buy a license, pay a little more than they can 23 afford and then determine that maybe it's not the family 24 outing that they would like to be participating in. All 25 of those are bad choices. And I submit to the 22 1 commission that we look at something different. 2 Remember that we do have a customer base in the lower 3 income strata. They're being overlooked and 4 overcharged, and I'd like for the commission to look 5 into this inequity. 6 The second issue -- and I better speed 7 up -- is probably the biggest one that we have been 8 dealing with on the coast. And that is the issue of the 9 saltwater spotted sea trout issue that's before us 10 today. Potential changes in the fishing regulations 11 were initially discussed between coastal managers and 12 selected parties somewhere in 2001. And as word of 13 these discussions spread, intense debates developed. 14 The end result was a series of town hall meetings, 15 formation of a speckled trout work group all, and a lot 16 of disharmony. This disharmony was not helpful, and it 17 certainly was not necessary. The coastal management 18 team appears to want public input but only that which 19 agrees with their positions. I was fortunate enough to 20 attend many of these meetings and public opinion solidly for no change. 21 And I hope the Commission was able to to receive that 22 message. 23 COMMISSIONER COOK: Got to wrap up. 24 MR. VALENTINO: The approach has damaged 25 the reputation of TPWD Coastal staff and exposed 23 1 willingness to listen to some interest over others. And 2 I hope that we take note of this problem. Thank you, 3 for your time. 4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. I just 5 want to reemphasize that each person has three minutes. 6 We have a large list of -- a long list of people signed 7 up to speak. And so that everybody gets their chance, 8 please try to keep it to three minutes. 9 Hello. 10 MR. RANNE: Hello. Madame Chairman and 11 Commissioners, Texas Parks and Wildlife. My name is 12 Leonard Ranne, Freshwater Anglers Association. And it's 13 a real pleasure to be here with you on this day. One of 14 the -- a couple of things I'd like to talk about here is 15 something dear to my heart, and that is our Youth 16 Outreach Programs. I understand that Sea World is doing 17 a fantastic job bringing the youth in and getting them 18 involved and educating them about fishing. And the surf 19 and so forth. I know at Athens last year, we had 28 20 hundred and 52 kids. This year they cut the program 21 three weeks short and we had 3 thousand and 80, 82 or 83 22 kids. The beautiful part about this, if we could open 23 this program up around Christmas, we might could pick up 24 two or 300 kids that would get to come here. Most of 25 these kids have never been outside the city -- wouldn't 24 1 be out of the outside the city limits of Dallas if they 2 haven't been to this program. We've done some research 3 and checking, and our program is working. The kids are 4 learning something. And it's not the same kids coming 5 back every year. So it's -- it's a good, good, good 6 healthy program. I'd like to see Austin and San Antonio 7 have one of the same centers, say, the Texas River 8 center in San Marcos. Studying our rivers aquifers, 9 that center there, if they planted some grass in that 10 open bay for those glass bottom boats, it would be a 11 beautiful -- you can have a beautiful program. And the 12 beautiful part about it, you'd probably get a million 13 people up and down that highway within less than a 14 six-mile area that you could bring into it. It could be 15 one of our best programs yet. I hope that this program 16 goes forward. And we have this program. 17 I would like to commend our inland 18 fishery staff for the fantastic job they've done with 19 our bass program. Our trophy bass. It's been 20 outstanding. We've had some problems with bass viruses. 21 We've had algae problems that come in and affect our 22 fisheries. And this creates a financial problem for in 23 and out around the area there where the lake is. So 24 it's crucial for us to maintain a program that generates 25 like $6.2 billion a year to the state of Texas, is a 25 1 strong hatchery. I know that without a hatchery 2 program, it will pay for it later down the road. We've 3 got a good vegetation management program going here now 4 where we can control, but not just vegetation. We even 5 got a count now that would protect the -- the 6 applicators that is hired by the River authorities or 7 whoever. And all that can be is a harassment suit for 8 like two million bucks. So we've made some progress. 9 We're coming forward. In the next ten years, I hope to 10 see Texas Parks and Wildlife bigger and better and more 11 wonderful than it is right now. Thank you, gentlemen. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Will Kirkpatrick and 13 Gary Van Gelder. 14 MR. KIRKPATRICK: Good afternoon. Thank 15 you for taking time to talk to us. My name is 16 Will Kirkpatrick. I've lived on Sam Rayburn Reservoir 17 since 1986 where I run a series of fishing schools and 18 guide. I'm here to talk about the peaks and valleys of 19 bass fishing in reservoirs and lakes that occur not only 20 here in Texas but over much of the United States, 21 Canada, and Mexico. I've fished for and caught bass in 15 22 states and Canada while traveling much of the country in 23 a 30-career with Bell System. In the packets that I 24 gave Mr. Estrada are copies of articles from national 25 outdoor magazines such as Sports Field, Field and 26 1 Stream, relating to the resurgence of bass fishing on 2 Sam Rayburn Reservoir after several years of poor 3 angling. You'll note these articles are from the 4 mid-80s. Also in this packet is a study I've done using 5 nine years of data from an annual three-day bass 6 tournament conducted on Sam Rayburn during the month of 7 April. There are several thousand anglers participate 8 in this every year. 9 As shown Rayburn's most recent peak for 10 big bass was 1995 when the largest ten bass for that 11 event averaged over 11 pounds each. The following year 12 we saw Rayburn drop to all time low water levels, 13 reduced its size by 25 percent, which is a lot of water. 14 One result of the reduced size was the lack of 15 protecting cover, partially resulting in the annual 16 three-day tournament having the top 240 bass weighing in 17 at an amazing seven and two-thirds pounds each. '96 was 18 followed by a steady decline in overall bass fishing and 19 it bottomed out last year when 240 bass weighed only 20 four and three quarters pounds each. As fishing results 21 decline on a reservoir or lake, so does the use by 22 recreational and tournament anglers, which results in 23 less pressure on the resource. Hence, the bass get 24 bigger and there are more of them, which is what we're 25 seeing right now on Sam Rayburn. This year, that same 27 1 tournament saw two 240 anglers weighing in bass 2 averaging almost six pounds a piece, which is a gain of 3 over one pound in this last year. That's similar to the 4 results we saw in 1998 when we had 239 anglers. We lost 5 one someplace. Normally, it's 240, but we lost one 6 there. During the same period of 1999 through 2001, 7 Bass Anglers Sportsman Society, who is the world's 8 largest tournament organization, commissioned 9 Dr. Schramm, who is professor of fisheries at 10 Mississippi State University; and Gene Gilliland, who is a 11 senior biologist with the State of Oklahoma's Department 12 of Wildlife, to do an in-depth study on bass mortality. 13 Both of these men, by the way, are ex Texans. And they 14 both are average -- avid bass fishermen. I worked with 15 them on their original protocol, which has been 16 condensed to a 43-page booklet, titled Keeping Bass 17 Alive. It's now being published. It's also in the 18 packet you've got. 19 The reason bass spent the time and money 20 on this study as we anglers kill a lot of fish. Many 21 are taken to be eaten. That's probably what they were 22 put here in the first place for. Others are used in 23 tournaments, produce incomes totaling millions of 24 dollars, but don't survive containment. And others die 25 through angler mishandling. You, as our commissioners, 28 1 and the Texas Parks and Wildlife can implement rules and 2 regulation dictating size and/or possession 3 requirements. And this will help. But until we anglers 4 and tournament organizations learn and apply proper 5 handling procedures, we will continue to see problems in 6 our fisheries. 7 Lastly, Madame Chairman, you and I were at 8 a meeting here some time ago when then chairman Lee Bass 9 brought up the subject of the conservation license 10 plates of bass. And he mentioned that there's an 11 organization that has 330,000 members. And if half of 12 these would buy these bass license plates, Mr. Cook would 13 have an additional 300 -- three million, 600,000 dollars 14 to work with. Thank you. Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: See what you 16 can do about that. 17 MR.KIRKPATRICK: I've got two of them, 18 Commissioner. I've a pickup and a suburban. 19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Van Gelder, 20 followed by R.C. Blundell. 21 MR. VAN GELDER: Madame Chairman, members 22 of the commission, Mr. Cook, my name is Dr. Gary Van 23 Gelder. I live in Houston, Texas. I like to think I 24 represent the views of the 500,000 independent anglers 25 who enjoy Walden-like mornings uninterrupted by 29 1 70-mile-an-hour bass boats. My comments concern our 2 large mouth bass fisheries. I want to make three 3 points. 4 Number one, Texas enjoys the best bass 5 fishing in the country. But we have an opportunity to 6 further improve the quality through better recycling. 7 Too many bass die unnecessarily from angler-induced 8 stress associated with catch, live well transport, weigh 9 and release fishing. Two, best practices have been 10 described to produce this mortality loss by 60 percent. 11 And, three, I propose a proactive implementation plan. 12 Bass caught and given rides in live wells under 13 conditions of warm water and low oxygen suffer 14 substantial mortalities within six days of being 15 released. To illustrate, the average mortality is 25 16 percent, based on over 100 studies. This predicts that 17 for every 20,000 legal bass given the live well 18 experience, 4,000 of the largest most catchable fish in 19 the lake die. When fishery managers are quoted as 20 saying, catch, transport, and weigh fishing has little 21 impact on overall fishery, I believe this is not the same 22 as saying, no impact. If 4,000, 10,000 or 40,000 of the 23 biggest catchable fish die unnecessarily as a result of 24 poor handling, they no longer contribute to the 25 quality of the fishing experience. What can be done? 30 1 The killer is temperature and poor live wells. Use -- 2 best practices have been described for aeration, water 3 exchange, water temperature control. Use common sense, 4 and don't schedule trans -- catch, transport and weigh 5 release events in the hotter months. How do we 6 implement this? Stage one is a voluntary program. The 7 stake holders and fishery biologists develop goals and a 8 timetable to reduce to delayed mortality. Best 9 practices have already been defined. The weakest link 10 is the commitment to implementation. The catch and 11 weigh industry should be responsible for implementation 12 and for reporting progress. 13 Step two. If the voluntary program 14 doesn't make sufficient progress in a reasonable period 15 of time, then implement stage two. Stage two allows 16 proactive organizations with low mortality records to 17 continue. But the non-complying community would be faced 18 with permitting and mandatory monitoring with full cost 19 recovery, a price to participate for those unwilling to 20 reduce avoidable mortality voluntarily. In summary, I 21 believe there is a substantial hidden loss of large 22 catchable that degrades the quality and quanity of our 23 fisheries. Two, best practices to avoid 60 percent of 24 this loss have been defined. And I proposed a stepwise 25 implementation program. The fish belong to everyone. 31 1 Those who fish for fun and those who fish for profit. 2 This should be a no-brainer. Win/win for all anglers. 3 Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Thank you. 5 Mr. Blundell followed by Mr. Parten, 6 Ed Parten. 7 MR. BLUNDELL: Thank you, board members. 8 I'm R.C. Blundell, Secretary of Central Texas 9 Association of Bass Clubs. I've been fishing -- bass 10 fishing for about 74 years. When -- I started when I 11 was six, so you see I'm right at 80 years old. This 12 grass carp business -- I have not seen, by your 13 biologists, what size they will put in there, how fast 14 they will grow, and how much they will consume each six 15 months. If you put that amount of fish that they're 16 talking about in Lake Austin, it's a matter of a year or 17 so, there will be nothing left but mud on the bottom. 18 Nothing to filter the water, nothing for algae to grow 19 on to survive. All species of fish, turtles and whatnot 20 to live on. And if they do hatch, they'll be gobbled up 21 by the big ones. And the water rushing through that 22 lake will turn it into nothing but a mud hole. From 23 experience and my years of fishing, I remember when 24 there was only -- fishing was closed three months out of 25 the year. No limits. No nothing. I talked to y'all -- 32 1 when you start putting length limits on, I told you 2 it would not work on Guadalupe bass. Well, sure enough, 3 it has not worked on Guadalupe bass. I'm too old. I've 4 been around too long. I've seen too many changes you 5 guys made. And I'm asking you, get your biologists out 6 and get it out to the public. The number of fish 7 they're talking about and putting in that lake and every six 8 months what their weight will be. Because they'll eat 9 their weight every day. And multiply that by 365 days 10 out of the year. They'll eat out every stinking thing 11 in that lake. And we will have a dead fishery. And I 12 know y'all don't want to see that. I maintain a 13 computer file, on my personal computer, of thousands and 14 thousands of bass fishermen or people that fish. Our 15 association puts on a tournament every year, which will 16 come up here in September, for the leukemia society, 17 nonprofit. We've raised close to $80 thousand in about 18 ten years. We're on the honor roll. So please have 19 your biologists put out to the public every six months 20 what these fish will consume and how long it would take 21 to get clear of the vegetation that's the study you're 22 making on that lake. Thank you, on behalf of the bass 23 fishermen. And I'll see you. 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ed Parten and 25 Jim Murray. 33 1 MR. PARTEN: Thank you, Lady Chairman, 2 distinguished panel. It's a pleasure to be here. My 3 name is Ed Parten. I'm president of Texas Black Bass 4 Unlimited. I would like to say that I've had the 5 pleasure of working with Texas Parks and Wildlife since 6 early '70s. I feel that the things that have been 7 accomplished by this department are great and wonderful. 8 And that I look forward to many years of working with 9 Texas Parks and Wildlife. 10 I am here today to, one, to tell you that 11 some of the things that we've done. We helped build the 12 Athens fishing center. We raised a half million 13 dollars. We marked 22 miles of River channel on 14 Lake Livingston. We donated a check in this very 15 building to start the -- to start the habitat 16 enhancement program that is now underway with inland 17 fisheries. We gave a check for $10,000 to help build a 18 tram that transports the youth, the elderly, and the 19 physically challenged around Athens. We have built a 20 pier program, a fishing pier on Lake Nacogdoches covered 21 for physically challenged. The cost of that was about 22 $187,000. We recently planted over 5,000 trees in Lake 23 Houston for habitat enhancement. We are currently 24 working with school districts in the greater Houston 25 area hoping to go build a fish hatchery system similar 34 1 to what there is in Athens with monies that we are 2 raising to actually teach and educate the youth about 3 fisheries. We will set aside one of the ponds for 4 actually using to help the youth and induct them into 5 fishing and the sport of fishing. I told you this to 6 tell that you we're interested in what happens here. 7 But of late, we have -- we've talked to people with 8 inland fisheries and Parks and Wildlife Department and 9 feel that all we've had to say has been -- has fell on 10 deaf ears. I hope that's not the case today. One of 11 the previous speakers talked about our association and 12 the number of members we have. We exceed over 300,000 13 people in the State of Texas. That's part of our 14 organization. And we feel that there are major problems 15 in our fisheries. With the new book that was put out in 16 June the 20th, you indicate that fishing generates $4.7 17 billion from an all time high just three years ago of 18 6.37 billion. We've seen over a billion and a half 19 dollar decrease in inland -- in fisheries that's 20 generated to the Texas economy. Fishing license sales 21 are down by 18 -- by 16.8 percent. I think that the 22 industry is suffering just about everywhere we go. And 23 I think that things needed to be -- need to be done. I 24 was told by the executive director that our inland 25 fisheries chief had made the statement that fishing is 35 1 better in Texas than it's ever been. I challenge that. 2 I think that other people behind me will confirm the 3 problems that we have. We have several speakers today 4 that will tell you some of the problems that are 5 occurring all over the state of Texas. Thank you so 6 very much for your time. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Jim Murray and 8 Elroy Krueger. 9 MR. MURRAY: Hello. My name is 10 Jim Murray. I'm a fishing guide on Falcon Lake. Or I 11 used to be, basically. I've worked about a dozen days 12 this year. Ten years ago when I moved to Falcon, out of 13 the first four months of the year, I would work 100 days 14 a year guiding. A lot of this has to do with our lake 15 level down there. But our -- quality of our fishing has 16 really went down. I'm also a tournament director and 17 I'm a board member of the Zapata County Chamber of 18 Commerce. A good guide trip on Falcon, when I first 19 moved down there, was 15 to 30 fish a day, per customer. 20 The tournaments -- the average bass tournament on a 21 five-fish stringer always exceeded 30 pounds. Several 22 times exceeded 40 pounds. I mean, we had the greatest 23 fishing in the United States at Falcon. 24 We had a thriving local economy of winter 25 Texans and bass tournaments that were coming down there 36 1 on a regular basis. Now -- and also when I first moved 2 there, we had 25 or 30 fishing guides on the lake. Now, 3 we have maybe two legitimate fishing guides that live on 4 the lake. Fishing is okay sometimes. Like I mentioned 5 earlier, this year I worked approximately 15 days. Some 6 of those trips have went to Mexico. They weren't even 7 here in the United States. We -- on a good day, we'll 8 catch ten to 15 fish per boat. Our average big bass 9 might be four pounds. I don't remember the last 10 ten-pound bass that was landed in my boat on Falcon 11 Lake. The first couple of years I lived down there, we 12 had -- I had -- over 20 every year was landed in my 13 boat. We were the number one lake in the State of Texas 14 to catch a ten-pound bass for the amount of hours 15 fished. Now I don't even think we're in the ranking. 16 In Zapata and Falcon Heights, we have many RV parks and 17 fish camps that are closed, operating at minimum 18 existence. We're supported, our local economy, by the 19 oil field period. I mean, we've lost the winter Texans. 20 We're losing the tournaments. 21 The biggest crying shame of the whole 22 thing is our lake is down 50 feet. It has been for the 23 last five or six years. Y'all know that. Right this 24 minute we do not have a paved launching ramp on the 25 lake. If that was anywhere else in the state of Texas, 37 1 other than a low populated area like we are, the people 2 would riot. I'm asking you to bring us some facilities 3 down there and give us some help. I mean, we need it. 4 We need it big time. Y'all -- I gave them pictures for 5 y'all to look at where we're launching down there. We 6 need management for our fishery down there. You've got 7 an aquatic vegetation team. We need some help in that 8 area. Our level is below where our fish are protected. 9 As I'm talking to you right now, we got 15 to 50 illegal 10 Mexican gill nets on our side of the lake. And we 11 complain and complain, we cannot get any enforcement. I 12 need your help. We need your help from Zapata. Thank 13 you. 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Elroy Krueger and 15 Larry Bridgeman. 16 MR. KRUEGER: Thank you. I'm 17 Elroy Krueger from Three Rivers around Choke Canyon. 18 I've been an aggressive fisherman for over 40 years. And my 19 concern is not for the good fisherman, the tournament 20 fisherman, or the pros. I'm a pro guide, pro fisherman, 21 and all that. My concern is the lack of license sales 22 in the State of Texas in freshwater fishing. The 23 number of people that have quit over the last ten years. 24 Thinking the other day -- I can't think of anybody in 25 our area that's under 25 that bass fish anymore. I 38 1 can't think of a youth that fishes bass -- for bass. 2 And bass clubs that use to come over there used to 3 average -- at first with the lake counter, they used to 4 average fifty entries per tournament. Now it's ten, and 5 only a few come occasionally. And it has everything to 6 do with the catch ratio. Trophy bass and Florida bass 7 is good, good for the state. I'm not fighting to 8 eliminate Florida bass. I am against hundred percent 9 Florida bass program and putting Florida bass 10 everywhere. Because Florida bass are too hard to catch 11 for the average fisherman. That's why they have quit. 12 That's why there's not anybody under 25. That's why 13 even bass clubbers are quitting. We've got to have the 14 action. You put the action to catch back into the 15 freshwater fishing, license sales will go up. And that 16 will do nothing but benefit y'all, benefit every 17 business, benefit my business. I wouldn't be here today 18 if that was the case. So I'm asking, don't forget the 19 average fisherman, the youth that want to come into 20 fishing. Give them something to catch. They can't 21 catch these hard to catch Florida and trophy bass. We 22 can -- it can be managed where you can have -- in any 23 lake, you can have trophy bass, you can have the native 24 bass that has been considered the dumb bass that hits 25 everything. That's what the average guy needs the kids 39 1 need to get them fishing. I have guys that are bass 2 fisherman wanting me to take out -- get my kid hooked on 3 bass fishing. I can't do it. I have problems. The 4 pros have problems. We have tournaments where there's 5 five fish per team, and a team -- two good fishermen, 6 you have 40 teams you -- get one or two limit. Choke Canyon 7 last Sunday, we had 14 people in a tournament. Heavy 8 stringer was one pound, 11 ounce. Second place was a 9 tie, one pound, eight ounce. One pound, eight ounce, 10 and that's it. 11 How can I get the average guy to catch 12 fish? How can I get them to come back? How can I get 13 the youth to fish when the ratio is like that? And it's 14 all due to strictly, 100 percent Florida bass program. 15 Again, I'm -- Florida bass is great. Put Florida bass 16 in every lake, my lake, but don't forget the average 17 fisherman. Their catch ratio is on the native bass. 18 Native bass are easier to raise and put in these lakes. 19 And it can be done. That's what I'm asking. Put the 20 catch back into fresh water fishing. And another thing 21 I'm having very distressed about is that four or five 22 weeks ago, 50 to 100 thousand pounds of fish were left 23 to die below Choke Canyon dam. Parks and Wildlife 24 officials did nothing about it. I asked them about 25 it, they said we don't know what to do. This problem 40 1 will occur again. I hope next time they will know what 2 to do. Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Larry Bridgeman and 4 Frank Goll. 5 MR. BRIDGEMAN: Ma'am Chairman, 6 commissioners. My name is Larry Bridgeman. Thank you 7 for allowing us to speak before you today. I am the 8 owner and operator of Falcon Lake Tackle in Zapata, 9 Texas. We also maintain a web site. And on this web 10 site we publish all of the relevant information about 11 Falcon, the tournament successes, fishing reports, lake 12 levels, hazards launching. And I've had occasion to 13 attend a number of tournament weigh-ins as a result of 14 the -- the maintaining the web site. And I can tell 15 that you the ten pound-plus bass that Jim Murray alluded 16 to -- the last one that was weighed in at any tournament 17 I've attended or have knowledge of was in May of 2001. 18 And that was a 10.36 pound fish that had net marks and 19 infection all over. And the illegal netting is rampant, 20 and that has contributed to the demise of multiple 21 species. We have had at least four species of fish at 22 Falcon that, during the '90s, have dropped to over a 50 23 CPUE, as measured by the Texas Parks and Wildlife 24 surveys, have dropped down to below 1.0. Some of them 25 are zero. 41 1 We had a tournament where we gave a 2 hundred dollars for every white bass, the biggest white 3 bass each day. Not one white bass was weighed in. 4 White bass used to bring tens of thousands of winter 5 Texans to our lake. Multiple million dollars in revenue 6 are being lost by the people who built the 15 or 20 RV 7 parks and motels around the lake perimeter. None of 8 their docks are working. None of their ramps are 9 working. And the Parks and Wildlife and the Parks 10 Department down at the State park do not maintain the 11 facilities that they have. For example, the road which 12 is a washboard and -- you have a picture of a broken 13 trailor parts. The launching area itself is rocks and 14 sharp drop offs and people are damaging trailors. And 15 I've had -- at the tournaments this winter, I think 16 frequently the heavy stringer and the big bass were the 17 same single fish. And about 20 percent of the people 18 caught fish. I had one guy tell me, I've been here four 19 times and haven't caught a legal keeper, and I'm not 20 coming back. And it is a desperate situation. We've 21 had meetings with the commissioners, with the Parks and 22 Wildlife Fisheries, people in enforcement. We have not 23 seen any change. There's an old saying, insanity is 24 when you do the same thing year after year and expect 25 the outcome to be different. And that's basically what 42 1 we've had at Falcon Lake. We urgently request your 2 intervention in a serious program to bring us the 3 facilities and stop putting fish in the lake that are 4 destroying the native species, like the stripers. Over 5 two million stripers have been put in during the same 6 period that 600,000 black bass have been stocked. And 7 the stripers do not do well, and all they do is feed the 8 Mexican nets and kill the crappie and the white bass. 9 So we appreciate your help. Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. I want 11 to remind you all once again that there is a three 12 minute limit. 13 MR. GOLL: Good afternoon, Madame 14 Chairman, Commissioners, and Dr. Cooke. Glad to see 15 y'all get Mr. Cook. 16 I'm Frank Goll, Texas Association of Bass 17 Clubs. Region one director with the south Texas area. 18 I live in San Antonio. I cover the region from San 19 Antonio south through Del Rio through Corpus Christi. 20 The two gentlemen before me -- the clubs I represent 21 fish those lakes, plus Lake Amistad, being the three 22 major lakes in our area. Today I'm here to speak in 23 support of -- and in opposition to the Texas Parks and 24 Wildlife Inland Fisheries stocking of Texas lakes. The 25 Florida large mouth bass program -- or large mouth bass 43 1 program --basically south Texas has a problem getting a 2 fair share of the resources, has had this in the past, 3 and probably will have it in the future. Right now, I 4 understand the Parks and Wildlife is considering a 5 five-dollar freshwater fishing stamp to build a new $16 6 million hatchery at Toledo Bend. We would be in favor 7 of a new hatchery. I'd love to have the fish. We do 8 not want the Florida large mouth. At least, most people 9 in south Texas don't. What we have seen in the 10 past --well, since 1977 to 2002, the three big East 11 Texas lakes, being Fork, Toledo Bend, Rayburn -- 12 well-known lakes -- in comparison to the three big south 13 Texas lakes -- or similar south Texas lakes, being 14 Amistad, Choke Canyon, and Falcon. The east Texas lakes 15 have received over 20 million -- right at 21 million 16 fish. South Texas lakes have received a little under 17 six million fish, which gives you about a 78 percent to 18 a 22 percent ratio. We don't feel this is quite fair. 19 Since 1977 there was articles in 20 newspapers, being Corpus Christi, and the New Braunfels 21 Herald. Keith Warren, Texas angler did them. 22 Complaining about the stocking ratios. We complained to 23 Texas Parks and Wildlife. And things sure did -- they 24 changed. They got a lot worse. Since that time -- 25 since 1977, the same lakes -- the east Texas lakes have 44 1 received 88 percent of the resources, while the Texas -- 2 South Texas lakes have dropped down to 12 percent of the 3 resources. Comparison of the two -- two of the lakes in 4 the area, Choke Canyon and Fork compared to -- compared to 5 sizes, impounding. 1980 compared to 1982 for Choke 6 Canyon will show that Lake Fork has received 84 percent 7 of fish stocked, compared to 16 percent for Choke Canyon, 8 Of the total fish that was stocked in those two lakes. 9 I don't know how much the stock seems to help as for 10 genetics, et cetera. But you take a look at Lake Fork has 11 produced the state record. Has produced of the top 50 12 bass caught in Texas. Choke Canyon has not produced a 13 bass in the top 50. And the lake record is 1466, caught 14 in 1991. In the era of 1994 to '96 -- 1994 to '96, Honey Hole 15 magazine was issued permits to remove small fish from 16 Fork, take them to other lakes, while they continued to 17 stock Lake Fork. And we cannot get any fish in south 18 Texas. Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ron Werner and David 20 Stewart. 21 MR. WERNER: Madame Chairman, 22 Commissioners, Bob Cook, I appreciate y'all being here 23 and letting me be here today to be in front of y'all. 24 I'm Ron Werner, CEO of April Plaza Marina on Lake Conroe. 25 Three things here. One is economics, one is complaints, 45 1 and one is a request. 2 Let's go through the revenue first, 3 please. On March the 4th, 1997, Mr. Bill Boyet caught a 4 lake record black bass on Lake Conroe weighing 14.91 5 pounds. Prior years show that it was not uncommon for a 6 lake record black bass to be caught on this lake. Since 7 that time, and up to this present time, there's not been 8 a record lake bass caught in the population. And size 9 of black bass has been on a steady decline. Plus, 85 10 percent are covered with sores. 11 Revenue from my business, such as, but 12 not limited to the following: Decline in bass 13 tournaments coming to Lake Conroe and to my motel, loss 14 in sales from motel rental, slip rental, boat launch, 15 gasoline, fishing rods, fishing reels, fishing lures, 16 hooks, swivels, fishing line, chips, cold drinks, 17 sandwiches, ice, shirts, caps, and et cetera. 18 So '98, my business started suffering 19 approximately ten percent loss of revenue because in 20 declines of the population and size of the black bass. 21 In '99 my business suffered 28 percent. In 2000, it has 22 suffered 40 percent. 2001, we're looking at 45 percent. 23 And so far this year, it's right at 50 percent. 24 All right. Sadly, this is not an 25 isolated lake or business. A tremendous amount of our 46 1 Texas lakes has caused business to either suffer in loss 2 of revenue, or they had to go out of business due to the 3 population and size of black bass. Yet officials from 4 Texas Parks and Wildlife are feeding false propaganda 5 as to how great our Texas lakes are. This is not true. 6 I am here today requesting your immediate attention and 7 help in getting the management of Texas Parks and 8 Wildlife to listen and to, at least, try what the 9 anglers are telling them concerning vegetation and water 10 quality. And support us and not the special interest 11 groups. I request a follow-up as to what is going to be 12 done to help us. And I want to make one last comment. 13 I have met with Bob Cook. I've got a lot of respect for 14 Bob Cook. He is new in here, and a lot of these issues 15 being throwed at him, and he's not even aware of what's 16 coming at him. So I'm asking all of you commissioners, 17 along with Bob Cook, to give the Inland Fishery 18 Department an immediate consideration and a complete 19 overhaul because things are happening out here that 20 y'all are not aware of. And it's costing us money and 21 in the future right now is very grim. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: David Stewart, Karen 23 Hadden. 24 MR. STEWART: Madame Chairman, 25 Commissioners, Mr. Cook, my name is David Stewart. And 47 1 I'm president of an organization called SMART. And 2 y'all are getting a little copy of an article in the 3 newspaper, I think it was Monday of this week, 4 concerning grass carp. I'm going to get -- I would like 5 this Commission to really think about instructing 6 Mr. Cook that they need to really evaluate stocking 7 grass carp in public waters in Texas anywhere. Lake 8 Austin is just one issue. But we do too much of it. 9 We're seeing more and more articles like that. The next 10 thing I want to -- I was at a meeting about a week and a 11 half ago with the commissioners of TNRCC. And the last 12 commissioner that we met with was Commissioner White. 13 And I brought up a question. And the question was, I 14 would like to see more cooperation between Texas Parks 15 and Wildlife and TNRCC. And lo and behold, our great 16 chairman of Texas Parks and Wildlife was already ahead 17 of me. She had already had a meeting with 18 Commissioner White. And I want to personally thank her 19 for that effort because that's exactly along the lines 20 that we as fishermen are thinking. So I want to thank 21 you for that. And I want to take it forward from there 22 even more. 23 The second thing is, I want to talk about 24 the conservation plan briefly. I want to thank you 25 again for making improvements to it. We, as fishermen, 48 1 were real unhappy with the first draft, but that's a 2 draft. That's why they call it a draft. Y'all made a 3 lot of changes. Not as much as we would like, but, 4 however, we took some big steps forward in -- if we do 5 everything we talk about, we're all going to be a lot 6 happier, as far as bass fishermen are concerned. And I 7 guess the one thing that I would like for this 8 commission to really consider and I'm not going to get 9 up here and beat anybody down, right now. But I think 10 that we do need to consider the fisheries in Texas. We 11 spend a lot of money. It's down. Income is down. The 12 conservation plan says we need to keep license sales 13 where it needs to be. I agree. We need to increase 14 them. But we can't do that unless we get better fishing 15 and fish easier to catch by young people. I would like 16 this commission to really consider appointing a 17 committee to address this problem and talk about this 18 problem, in conjunction with Mr. Cook who I've had 19 several meetings, to see if we can address some issues 20 and come up with some things that this commission and 21 Parks and Wildlife can try to do. We can't improve 22 fishing, increase revenue, because y'all do a great job. 23 Y'all donate a lot of time. And I personally thank you 24 for it. But I feel like we can certainly go forward and 25 do whole lot more. So, thank you, very much. 49 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Pam Lawrie, 2 Karen Hadden. 3 MS. HADDEN: Good afternoon, Madame 4 Chairman and Commissioners. My name is Karen Hadden. 5 I'm here on behalf the SEED Coalition, which is 6 sustainable economic and environmental development. And 7 what I would like to talk about today -- and I want to 8 thank Mr. Cook for having listened to this concern 9 raised in a meeting recently. But I do feel that the 10 agency is currently not doing an adequate job of letting 11 the public know about fish advisories. And I am asking 12 your help today. Most states, when a fishing license is 13 purchased, they actually provide information about fish 14 advisories and bans. And that is not happening in 15 Texas. Someone who is lucky might get a copy of the 16 outdoor annual. Out of 104 pages, on page 62 there is 17 one paragraph that refers to the fact that in some 18 locations there are bans on the possession of fish. 19 Never once is the word pollution used. That is not 20 adequate notification to the public. This could be 21 because of breeding purposes or trying to restock 22 species that are present. So it does give a web site. 23 Many people who fish do not have internet access. And a 24 phone number -- this is one of those things where it 25 could take you days to get the information on the phone. 50 1 What I'm saying is that printed information needs to be 2 handed to everyone who gets a license. 3 My son is now 17. He likes to camp and 4 fish. And when he and his friends get licenses, they 5 need to have this information provided to them, 6 especially as they get older and travel throughout the 7 state. They're going to be fishing in new places. And 8 they want to know where it's safe to eat the fish and 9 where it's not. 10 The reason this is of concern, there are 11 many pollutants that are impacting fish. In the case of 12 Mercury, it's serious because young children exposed to 13 this Mercury can end up with learning disabilities, 14 attention deficit disorder. There's links to autism and 15 mental retardation. As a former teacher, I can you we 16 afford this. And those that subsistence fish are most 17 likely to get those impacts. So this is families most 18 likely with lower income, those who can least afford to 19 have children with Special Ed needs. So I thank you for 20 taking this seriously. I'd like to point out that, out 21 of 100 publications in the lobby, there is not one thing 22 available about fish advisories. Two of the staff 23 people at the front desk today were unable to answer the 24 question about whether advisories exist in this state. 25 This is the main location for buying a license. 51 1 Furthermore, I went personally to the 2 Athens fishing center which I want to say a beautiful. 3 And, again, as a teacher it's a beautiful facility. 4 Five employees there could tell me nothing about any 5 fishing advisories in the state and didn't know quite 6 who to ask about that. I find that appalling because, 7 if we're teaching young children to fish, they need to 8 know what fish are safe to eat and whether they're not. I 9 think it's important to address the problem, to clear it 10 up. Mercury contamination is coming from power plants. 11 We can address that. 12 We are working with many organizations, 13 including the fishermen, many of the organizations 14 present in this room. We have been meeting with the 15 TNRCC to correct the problem. What we'd like you to do 16 is help get the word out. We want to you push for 17 legislation that allows you to post signs where 18 advisories exist because, in many cases, they are not 19 up. I'd like you to do a better job of getting the word 20 out when people buy licenses. And, lastly, there was an 21 agreement -- if I may wrap up -- there was an agreement 22 to post these advisories to link to them on the web 23 site. And that's been done, it's so buried no one can 24 find it. So please help put that on the home page. 25 Thank you. 52 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Scott Thrash 2 following Pam Lawrie. 3 MS. LAWRIE: Good afternoon. My name is 4 Pam Lawrie. I'm a program manager with the Texas 5 Association of Community Action Agencies. We administer 6 a program called the Hunters for the Hungry. And you 7 should have a one-page handout that describes and gives 8 you some background on the program. Texas Hunters for 9 the Hungry is a program that is a statewide antihunger 10 initiative. What we do is coordinate the hunters, the 11 meat processors, and the food assistance providers. 12 Last year, working together, Texas hunters and meat 13 processors provided 92,000 pounds of wild game that was 14 used then to provide to the food assistance providers 15 and ultimately helped feed needy Texans. I want to 16 thank the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. You've 17 been part of the success of this program. 18 Just recently this year, you've assisted 19 us by putting information about the Hunters for the 20 Hungry in the cold storage record book. And adding a 21 column so that meat processors can check a donation when 22 it's for the Hunters for the Hungry. You've helped us 23 with publication information in your -- for example, 24 your public hunting land booklet. And staff has helped 25 us with having brochures available. The reason I'm here 53 1 today is to, once again, ask for your help. In Texas, 2 in addition to donating the game, the Texas hunters, on 3 average, give about an additional $20 to help defray the 4 cost of meat processing and that's discouraging to the 5 hunters. 6 The meat processers also donate their 7 time and their resources. And over the recent years, we 8 continue to lose meat processors that are willing to 9 participate in the program. Compared to other states, 10 the wild game donations in Texas are relatively low. 11 Compared to Virginia, about 230,000 pounds were donated 12 last year. Wisconsin, 175,000 pounds were donated. 13 Texas, even though it was our best year ever, was the 14 92,000 pounds. One reason that these other states are 15 more successful is the existence of funds to help 16 support the program. The wild game that's being donated 17 by Texas hunters, that's being processed by meat 18 processors is a wonderful source of protein for hungry 19 children and needy families. To maintain the program, 20 though, and ultimately to help it achieve it's 21 potential, the program needs a consist source of 22 donations. 23 We're asking that the Texas Parks and 24 Wildlife Department continue to work with us to help us 25 enhance this program, to help us learn about donation 54 1 possibilities and what we can do together with you. And 2 I do want to conclude by saying we appreciate the 3 assistance that you have provided to date for this 4 program. And look forward to working with you in the 5 future. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Scott Thrash, Jane Luchan (sic) 7 MR. THRASH: Hi, my name is Scott Thrash. I am 8 president of Deer Texas.com. Also an advisory council 9 member on Hunters for the Hungry. And I wanted to take 10 a minute to acknowledge David Sinclair and Jerry Cooke 11 for their recent help of our ongoing project. The state of 12 Virginia -- Pam had mentioned, we had 230,000 pounds of venison donated 13 the last year by their hunters as we had 92,000 here in 14 Texas. And in that state, they have an option for 15 hunters to donate a dollar to the program when they buy 16 their hunting license. It's come to my attention 17 recently that that would take legislative action here in 18 Texas for that to happen. It's also come to my 19 attention that that probably wouldn't be in the best 20 interest of Parks and Wildlife if we went that route. 21 So I just want to reiterate what Pam said, that we look 22 forward to your continued support and help. Thank you, 23 very much. 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jane or 25 Jay -- I'm sorry. Jaye Lycan. I'm so sorry. 55 1 MS. LYCAN: That's okay. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: And then Sylvan 3 Rossi. 4 MS. LYCAN: Good afternoon. My name is 5 Jaye Lycan. I'm the executive director of eastside 6 ministries of Fort Worth, a food assistance provider. 7 We are a small food and clothing ministry in East Fort 8 Worth that takes care of needy. Last year we were one 9 of hundreds of food banks in the state, and my ministry 10 gave out over $150,000 in food items to our clients. 11 Protein is a scarce commodity. Has shown that protein 12 is a very important component of early childhood brain 13 cell development. Texas is second as the highest number 14 of households experiencing food insecurity. This is a 15 polite way of saying that 32 percent under 12 in Texas suffer from 16 malnutrition or out right hunger. Visualize with me 17 that three of you on the board represent that profile. 18 Hunters for the Hungry offers community service action with many positive factors. Hunters are allowed to 19 share their bounty with our state's most precious 20 resource, our youth. A program enthusiastically promoted as Hunters for 21 the Hungry can enrich our food bank with this excellent with source of protein 22 exposing young Texans to venison is a great way to introduce 23 new hunters to our outdoors. I would encourage Texas Parks and Wildlife 24 Department to continue supporting Hunters for the Hungry 25 and helping development strategies to develop the 56 1 program. Thank you very much for your time. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. And 3 thanks to Hunters for the Hungry. Great job. Sylvan Rossi and then 4 Jim Carr. 5 MR. ROSSI: Madame Chairman, Commission, I 6 appreciate the opportunity to have a chance to speak 7 with you today. Four years ago -- I represent the 8 Korima Foundation. I'm the president. And our next 9 speaker, Jim Carr, is the founder of our organization. 10 Four years ago, we started out as a 11 Friends Group associated with the Big Bend Ranch State Park. And our 12 concept was to use the vast resources of the Big Bend Ranch as an educational 13 outdoor classroom for at risk inner-city youth. And 14 thanks to the executive office, parks department, and Lydia's staff, we were all able to get off it a 15 very good start, and have since incorporated as a 5083C 16 and formed long-term relationships with 17 18 long-term agreement with Sul Russ University, the University of Texas , University of Houston, and have also obtained funding from the Brown 19 20 Foundation Houston Endowment, Hershey Foundation, among others. 21 We're simply are here to appreciate the support that we 22 received from you. To start and ask for your continuing 23 support as we seek to grow our program. Thank you very 24 much. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jim Carr 57 1 and Art Pasley. 2 MR. CARR: Thank you. I'm with the 3 Korima Foundation, also. And when we first started out, 4 we had to go to the Houston Independent School District 5 and get them to approve our plan. Now, the Houston 6 Independent school district has over 200,000 students. And we went and 7 talked to Dr. Page, who is now the secretary of education. 8 And he was all enthused about our program. And he said, 9 well, now, how many people are you going to be able to 10 take out there each year? We said, well, probably 50. 11 And he'd been having a hard day 200,000. So we've done 12 a lot with inner-city school kids and they are without a 13 doubt the best kids we've ever dealt with. The best 14 thing that's really happened to us is when Bob Cook told 15 us that he couldn't have poor relatives like us. We was 16 going to have to finance our own money. So we got out 17 and actually did that and thank you Mr. Cook at the time 18 I thought you was a rear end of a horse, but I've 19 changed my mind now. So anyhow, we've to the still 20 going to work with kids. And we thank you for the 21 support that you've given us and thanks for the Houston 22 and San Antonio School District, also. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 24 MR. PASLEY: Madame Chairman, 25 commissioners of the board, Mr. Cook, attendees. I'm 58 1 Art Pasley, Southern director for the Cast for Kids Foundation. I have 2 some brochures for y'all that I left with the second 3 earlier. We are a nonprofit organization based in 4 Renton, Washington with a Dallas office and Jamestown, Ohio 5 office that promote and organize outdoor fishing trips for 6 disabled kids in Texas. 7 You've heard today about the hunting 8 trips for kids you've heard about senior city programs 9 for kids. But you haven't heard a single program that's 10 primary focus is to the disabled and disadvantaged. Our 11 projects range from 35 to 40 kids at a time. Pairing 12 them with volunteer boaters civic groups and individual 13 volunteers to help take the kids out fishing on the 14 water, take them out of their wheel chairs out of their 15 crutches provide them with rod and reels, tackle boxes, 16 T-shirts, hats, and plaques with a picnic lunch on shore 17 and the plaques are presented to the child with a 18 picture of them and their boater at the conclusion of 19 the day. The cost for this is not that great, although 20 it is a barrier for us in Texas and other states to 21 obtain funding for this. I have presented, too, Parks 22 and Wildlife a request for the outdoor outreach program 23 grant money and I would asked that y'all encourage the 24 outreach board - review board, to take a good look at our request and 25 see if we can't partner Texas Parks and Wildlife with 59 1 the Cast for Kids program in the same manner that we 2 have in states such as Washington, Oklahoma, Florida, 3 Nebraska, North Carolina, with a Bureau of Reclamation Corp of 4 Engineers. and the Washington State Game and Fish Department. Thank 5 you. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Helen Holdworth. 7 Whitney Marion. 8 MS. HOLDWORTH: Madame chairman and 9 Commissioners and Mr. Cook, my name is Helen Holdworth. 10 And I'm here for the Texas Brigades Program. Texas 11 youth need all of us to help build the knowledge and skill they need to shape their future. Their 12 future is the future of Texas and Texas wildlife. I 13 would like to thank you, Texas Parks and Wildlife, for 14 your - for your involvement with the Texas Brigades family by investing in 15 the future of wildlife and tomorrow's conservation 16 leaders. Your investment will pay dividends for Texas 17 youth and Texas wildlife. We would like to give special 18 thanks to the following Texas Parks and Wildlife 19 Department employees for their involvement this past summer 20 with the Texas Brigades, they were Robert Perez 21 Jim Gallagher, Kevin O'Neal, Michelle Haggerty, Charlie Newberry, Bruce Biermann, David Synatzke, Misty Summner, Jimmy Rutledge, John Burke, Chip Ruthman, Jean Foxx, Moyce Moore, Kathy McGinny, , Dana Wright, Jimmy John Edwards, Jim Lineburger, Scotty Parsons, Dale Burr, Dwayne Lucia, we thank you you 25 for your support. 60 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Whitney Marion. 2 Anson Howard. 3 MS. MARION: I'm Whitney Marion. And thanks to 4 to Texas Wildlife Association and Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. I 5 had the amazing opportunity to attend the Buckskin 6 Brigades camp this summer held at the Chapparal Ranch in Zavala County. Before 7 I went, I was kind of a little city girl whose family 8 had land. And I had an interest in wildlife, but I 9 never really knew how I could ever make a contribution and attending the Buckskin 10 Brigade added a new dimension to my life. And I am now 11 more educated and know how to better manage our land and 12 wildlife. I've also become a resource for anyone who 13 has questions about deer habitat management. And have 14 been able to offer numerous consultations on their land. 15 I'm sure my story has been repeated in the lives of 16 everyone who has gotten the opportunity to attend -- to the either the Bob White 17 Brigade or the Buckskin Brigade. The Buckskin Brigade 18 gives young people, the chance to meet the experts in the field. And they 19 become role models and resources for their environment 20 in deer and land management. Every dollar invested in 21 the Texas Brigades is returned multi-fold in the form of public education 22 and increased emphasis on the conservation of Texas's 23 ideal eco systems. Through the enthusiastic efforts of these cadets, the 24 citizens of Texas even enjoy increased appreciation for 25 conservation policies. Thank you so much for your time 61 1 and effort. And here is Anson to talk about the Bob 2 White Brigade. 3 MR. HOWARD: Good afternoon. My name is 4 Anson Howard. And this summer I attended both camps -- 5 Texas Brigades. It was a life changing experience. After 6 the completion of the camp, we cadets have the knowledge 7 and capability to make the difference in the world of 8 wildlife management. Texas Parks and Wildlife 9 Department Cooperative Extension TWA, NRCS and many 10 other private and public organizations have made Texas 11 Brigades possible. We thank you for the contribution of 12 funds and the time of your employees that helped us 13 throughout the week. Texas Wildlife Association has 14 played a major role in the founding and continuation of 15 the Brigades. They are not a public organization, but a 16 group of landowners, hunters, and conservationists who 17 are dedicated to preservation of habitat and rights to 18 hunt and fish. TWA has limits though and cannot 19 privately fund the organizations and research projects that are necessary to 20 accomplish all that it wants to. Look at what TWA and 21 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department have already 22 accomplished. All right. Now think what they can 23 accomplish when they work hand in hand to preserve the 24 lone star state for future generations. Deer hunting in 25 Texas has seen the same boom that the oil industry did 62 1 decades ago. Quail though continue to be overlooked 2 while millions of dollars each year are spent on the research and 3 preservation of deer habitat. In some areas of state, 4 quail play a major role in the county's economy. There 5 are other benefits to an increased quail population. 6 These birds require habitat with good grasses and brush. This eliminates some of the problems Texas 7 is faced with today. Having good ground cover means 8 that when it does rain water will not run off into the rivers carrying topsoil 9 along with it. Instead the much needed rain will soak 10 into the ground providing cities with water to meet their 11 vast requirements. We ask the Texas Parks and Wildlife 12 Department step up the research on quail and dedicate more 13 funds to educating landowners on the benefits of increased quail populations. 14 When the land is suitable for quail it is a win win 15 situation. Everyone benefits. Texas Parks and Wildlife 16 Department should feel proud to be part of such an esteemed organization as the Brigades. 17 The cadets thank you for the support that you have given 18 and hope that you will continue supporting Bob White and Buckskin Brigade. 19 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department has taken the 20 initiative to invest in the future of hunting and we 21 applaud you for that. As Derrick Bark of Harvard University stated, if you 22 think education is expensive, try ignorance. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Robert Brown and 24 Neal Wilkins. 25 MR. BROWN: I'm Bob Brown, I'm head the Department of 63 1 Wildlife and Fishery Sciences at Texas A&M. And I'm 2 here today just to thank you on behalf of our students 3 and our faculty for your continued support of our 4 research programs, extension programs, and our academic 5 programs. Unofficially, I can probably thank you on 6 behalf of the other eight universities in Texas that have similar programs funded by 7 Texas Parks and Wildlife. At Texas A&M right now, our department 8 as has 14 active research projects funded by Texas Parks 9 and Wildlife totaling over a million dollars in funding. These range from population 10 studies on alligators to studies on Rio Grande turkeys 11 mourning doves, white-wing doves, a study on economic 12 impacts of anglers at the Sam Rayburn fishery, studies on prairie chicken habitat, 13 the Texas shrimp fishery, 14 distribution of black-capped vireos, and analysis of use of boating 15 facilities in Texas. These projects fund over 20 graduates 16 studying for degrees and Ph.D.s. In addition, we have about 17 $200,000 this year alone from Parks and Wildlife funding our extension programs. These 18 include very collaborative efforts on the Texas masters naturalist program, our 19 conservation education program which includes both aquatic and 20 hunter education and collaborative efforts to address the quail decline in 21 Texas. And importantly this year Texas Parks and 22 Wildlife , Texas A&M, and the Texas Wildlife Association are sharing 23 leadership in an important effort called the Future of Hunting in 24 Texas. But the most important thing I think you do for us, that costs you the 25 least money is your support of our academic programs. At Texas A&M, we 64 1 have about 400 undergraduates and 200 graduate students in wildlife and 2 fisheries. Dr. Slack is with me today. He brings over 3 our freshman class every semester to sit in on your Commission 4 meetings. Those have been very enlightening to our students and I think they've probably been enlightening to Dr. Slack as well. 5 In addition, we take literally hundreds of students on dozens of 6 field trips to your management areas and your fish hatcheries. 7 you also support summer internships for our students and I know that funding 8 is tight but I encourage you to maintain it as well as 9 possible. Also, you we house both Michelle Haggerty who 10 is our master naturalist coordinator in our department -- is housed in our department 11 as is Matt Wagner our local technical biologist who 12 works with our students and our clubs on deer check 13 station and burns and things of that nature. Matt is also pursuing a Ph.D. in our department. 14 And finally I would like to thank you 15 and particularly for all your staff from your director on 16 down for their constant willingness to come over to 17 college station and give talks to our students, both in their classes and in their club 18 meetings. This hands on experience in dealing with 19 wildlife management and policy issues in Texas is 20 absolutely essential for the training of our future 21 biologists in this state. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Neal Wilkins and 23 Susie Marek. 24 MR. WILKINS: Madame Chairman, members of 25 the Commission, my name is Neal Wilkins. I'm the 65 1 extension program leader for Wildlife and Fisheries at 2 Texas A&M. One of the things I want to do is actually 3 point out a couple of the partnerships that Texas Parks and 4 Wildlife has with Texas A&M and our Texas Cooperative 5 extension. You've already heard about one of those 6 partnerships, the Texas Brigades. You've heard 7 about the cooperative and collaborative efforts that Parks and Wildlife employees 8 have with our academic programs. With our extension programs 9 we have two very important partnerships and these play partnerships 10 well into the sunset provisions that you were asked to 11 emphasize this last year. One of those is our 12 conservation education program. Through the efforts of 13 Steve Hall, your education division director, we have 14 hunter education programs which leverage our 4H leaders 15 and adult volunteers to meet our joint mission of youth 16 education, through this program, the end product are 17 adult volunteers which work with youth in hunter 18 education work with youth in everything from the Texas 19 youth hunting program to efforts in minority and under 20 privileged inner-city youth in making sure that we have 21 proper recruitment of those individuals into our hunting 22 population. We have an angler education program which 23 reaches thousands of kids per year. And we also have a 24 cooperative program Prairie View A&M that you are a partnership in. 25 That partnership with Prairie View A&M helps conduct natural resources camps every 66 1 year. With Prairie View A&M that reach hundreds of 2 minority children coming out of the major metropolitan 3 areas and actually gives them their first experiences at 4 fishes and also encourages them to participate in other 5 outdoor education activities. We have dozens of examples of other 6 effective partnerships -- one of them is Texas master naturalist 7 program. Texas master naturalist program has resulted in 1700 trained 8 volunteers -- over 100,000 hours of volunteer effort. It's 9 been dedicate to do natural resources in the State of 10 Texas. I want to thank you for the support of these 11 programs, encourage you to expand these when you 12 can and keep these partnerships alive with Texas cooperative extension. Thank you very much. 13 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jeannie 15 Dullnig after Susie Marek. 16 MS. MAREK: Madame chairwoman, Commission, 17 Mr. Cook, friends of the staff here at Texas Parks and 18 Wildlife, my name is Susie Marek and I am the executive director of the Friends of Inks Lake State Park 19 Our Memorandum of Agreement between state parks 20 Texas Parks and Wildlife rather and the Friends of Inks 21 Lake State Park expires on August 31st. And I'm here to 22 let you know that the consensus of the board of directors is to not pursue a new 23 memorandum of agreement. Our group at Inks also will shortly 24 dissolve after August 31st, as soon as the last donation check 25 has cleared the bank. Per our contract a list of physical property purchased with 67 1 Friends money has been provided to Bill Granbury, Region 7 2 director for review anything that TPWD wishes to have 3 off of that list of course would become yours Per our contract 4 Also the monies in the Friends bank account will be 5 forwarded to a 501C3. And we've decided to forward that 6 money to the Foundation of Parks and Wildlife to the 7 Lone Star Legacy Endowment Fund, dedicated to Inks Lake 8 State Park. Our reason for terminating our relationship 9 is the removal and the transfer of superintendent Paul Kisel. Paul 10 has been the superintendent at Inks for the last six years. He 11 was the assistant superintendent for seven years prior to that. Paul 12 was a dramatic force in bringing tremendous changes to 13 the park, a lot of improvements and expanded electrical sights 14 increased facilities to accommodate the handicapped 15 above and beyond basic requirements. And a total 16 revamping of the park screen shelters to mini cabins. We felt the 17 distinct loyalty and we still do to Paul Kisel and to Inks Lake State 18 Park mainly because of Paul's commitment to our park to 19 our visitors and to our community. There's been no 20 reasonable explanation given for the action taken 21 against Mr. Kisel and with our heart and sole being 22 transferred to the Texas Oklahoma border, I believe at 23 Eisenhower -- the climate the way it is right now we no 24 longer wish to be partners. On a personal note, I've 25 been a volunteer since 1994 at Inks and a camper at Inks since 68 1 1967. I have met many dedicated Texas Parks and 2 Wildlife during this time. And I've actually worked 3 with a number of you from time to time in my role as 4 board member on Texans for state parks. I have truly 5 enjoyed my volunteering experience with the possible exception of the long days down 6 at the legislature. Unfortunately, the management 7 decision to remove Paul Kisel saddens me greatly and 8 but to move on. I thank you very much for your time 9 today. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Dullnig and John Robinson. 11 MS. DULLNIG: Madame Chairman and members 12 of the Commission, thank you for having me today. I'm 13 Jeannie Dullnig, and I represent the Stewards of the 14 Nueces, which is a group of landowners and 15 conservationists that came together out of our mutual 16 concern for the health of the Nueces River. We are also 17 river users in that we swim and canoe, kayak, fish, many of us 18 hike and bird watch in the beautiful and scenic Nueces 19 River. So we believe in the public's rights to use the 20 river, but we don't feel that the public has the right to abuse any 21 resource. We are not a special interest group and we're 22 not asking for anything for ourselves. We simply want 23 to see a wonderful state-owned resource preserved and 24 protected. We were here in a large group this time last 25 year. We testified about the negative impact of off 69 1 road motorized vehicles in the river and we documented our 2 testimony with photographs. We decided not to come in 3 mass this year. We know your time is valuable and we 4 know you heard us, but we are still concerned. We're 5 more concerned than ever. And the abuse of public 6 streambeds continues and is escalating as an alarming 7 rate. The river cannot defend itself against this type 8 of activity. Since I was standing here one year ago, 9 you have received reports from two of your own biologists telling of the indisputable damage to the 10 aquatic habitat in the riparian 11 community of the river system. Also in the past year a 12 task force was formed and four meetings were held. 13 After much discussion testimony research and scientific 14 findings Texas Parks and Wildlife staff took the 15 position that motorized vehicle activity is a harmful 16 activity. Page 16 of the final report to the commission 17 states, quote, it is the opinion of Texas Parks and 18 Wildlife staff that in those streambeds where motorized 19 vehicle activities are conducted water quality fish and wildlife and their 20 habitats are negatively affected by those activities. 21 Motorized vehicle used in a streambed is not a benign activity rather than 22 research conducted in other states has demonstrated the 23 negative effects of MV use in streambeds on fish and 24 wildlife resources. Preliminary results of 25 investigations in Texas support these findings. It is 70 1 an ecologically harmful activity, end quote. As a 2 result of the task force, TP&W staff came up with two 3 options to present to the legislature as a member of 4 that task force I'd like to say that I support option 5 one and the Stewards of the Nueces also support it. 6 However, we also strongly believe that a state agency 7 should have the legal statutory authority over 8 activities in navigable streambeds and we feel 9 that Texas Parks and Wildlife is the logical one to 10 assume this responsibility. It is our opinion that the 11 ecologically-sensitive river systems in this state should 12 be afforded the same protection and preservation as our 13 state parks and in closing, I urge you honorable commissioners as 14 managers and conservators of the resources of this great 15 state to please accept the responsibility for these 16 water ways. And protect them before it's too late. 17 Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Hugh Preston Perron. 19 MR. ROBINSON: Chairman Idsal, Commissioners. My name is John 20 Robinson. I'm a landowner on the Llano River therefore I have a 21 front row seat to the destruction of the Llano riverbed 22 I've provided you with pictures showing you the before and 23 after effects of the traffic. During the past two years 24 I've witnessed the disappearance of the bald eagle, water 25 turkeys, Texas white pelicans, herons,turkeys and 71 1 most of my other bird life. The increase in population 2 has had a big impact on the Llano River. John Graves 3 has written a book about six of the Texas Rivers. One 4 of those is the Llano. I'm going to quote from that. 5 Most of the 18 or 19 miles of the lower river miles from 6 the town of Llano to above Kingsland is not only tough 7 boating but tough to reach. There are few access 8 points. This is a bit hard on the recreationist, but 9 probably good for the river itself since these sections 10 get human use and pay a considerable part in maintaining 11 the streams overall health including fish populations. The 12 pictures I provided you are of that section of the 13 river. So you can see the change from the time that he wrote his book and today. 14 My concern today is the lack of law enforcement. Drug 15 use is commonly noted. Alcohol consumption is a 16 concern most drivers leaving the river have been drinking heavily 17 and should be checked before driving out on the highway. 18 Ranch Road 3404 upstream the two game wardens issued 19 123 citations between January 2001 and June of 2002. 20 And I was involved in about 40 of those. Many 21 violations are not cited and no law enforcement officer is 22 available. A web site refers to the sheriff of Llano 23 County as a joke. The two game wardens are assigned to patrol Lakes Buchanan 24 and LBJ on the weekends. I called the game warden last 25 weekend and was informed that they had to turn in the 72 1 four-wheelers and he had no way to respond to my call. 2 We need help. If the legislature does not curtail the vehicle traffic in the river law 3 enforcement capabilities must be improved and expanded. 4 I hope that we do not have to return to the old days 5 when we had to apprehend the trespassers. Thank you for 6 selecting me to serve on the statewide task force. It 7 was a great experience for me. Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Trey Berndt. 9 MR. PERRON: Madame Chairman and committee members 10 thank you for this opportunity to talk. I'm Hugh 11 Preston Perron, I ranch Llano County and have ranchland bordering the Llano River. 12 My brother Leroy Perron, Junior served on the task 13 force and is unable to make it today. He asked me if I can 14 convey his comments on option one and two and also know 15 had written Larry McKinney, senior director of aquatic resources. I want to 16 respond to Texas Parks and Wildlife proposed option one 17 and two that's a preference I would like to offer 18 observation on our several task force meetings and 19 general exceptions for components one have accepted the 20 expert testimony the people brought before the task 21 force to provide it with the necessary information and 22 the results of a study relating to our mission. Of the 23 many expert presentations made by law enforcement 24 officers, biologists, geologists, hydrologists, environmentalists, and fishery experts, 25 all components have constantly, vocally, and aggressively challenged 73 1 every expert that disagreed with their particular 2 points of view. This occurred repeatedly regardless of the level of qualifications or 3 standings of the experts in his particular field or 4 their experiences or their years of specialized 5 educations or the evidence they brought to support their 6 findings or opinions. Regarding proposed options of the 7 task force to consider, I am in favor of option one. 8 The resource under study is a statewide resource and 9 should be regulated by statewide authorities. The 10 development and the enforcement of the River bed use 11 regulations should be uniform throughout the state to 12 ensure fairness to all those concerned. The regulations 13 should address a single subject. The use of wheel 14 vehicles in or about the riverbeds. Other recreational 15 forms of river And River bed uses are not now and have 16 not been historically a problem. Fishing, boating, 17 hiking, and birding and riparian areas have never created the 18 uproar and public concerns currently associated with 19 wheel vehicle use as in evidence now by several 20 newspaper articles and letters to editors. The state can 21 use funds from the motorized trail program to provide 22 suitable sites for wheeled vehicle use that will not 23 have the serious and adverse environmental impact on 24 being experienced in our state owned riverbeds. My 25 reason for opposing option two are several. Management 74 1 by local options will without doubt result in a 2 mixture of conflict regulations and different 3 jurisdiction and some overly and unnecessary protective 4 and other and permissives as to be useless to the goals 5 to which they are aspire. The lower level of experts 6 and experience going into the regulations making it the 7 local level will result in a less objective, less 8 informed and less manageable result. A far better and 9 more comprehensive result is likely to emerge from the 10 effort of the state agencies with years of cumulative 11 experience in the field. A large and trained staff 12 educated in the subject at hand and adequate funding and 13 resource to devote to the task. 14 Additionally, if control is regulated in individual 15 communities the likelihood of political contest at the 16 local level of control over this new authority is likely 17 to be heated and diversities and various local interests actively vie 18 for control. 19 MR. COOK: Mr. Perron -- got a 20 red light here. 21 MR. PERRON: Okay. Thank you. COMMISSIONER ANGELO: We have your letter sir. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Trey Berndt and Sky 23 Lewey. 24 MR. BERNDT: Good afternoon. I'm Trey 25 Berndt. I'm representing myself. My wife really doesn't believe I can say anything in three 75 1 minutes. So if I do that, I'd like somebody to send her 2 a note or something. I've been fishing and swimming and 3 paddling in Texas rivers for about 30 years. I 4 represent really - I've come to you as a perspective 5 of fly fisherman, but I think you'll find my perspective as 6 common among paddlers and landowners, as well. 7 First off, I'd like to really thank the 8 Commission for the hard work on this subject and the excellent staff 9 report and I'd like to commend the staff that wrote the report. It's tough to come out and 10 give your opinion when you work for a state agency sometime and 11 be clear about it. And this report does. And this 12 report documents that wheeled use of vehicles is an 13 ecologically destructive. And that's a very clear 14 statement. And I think the whole issue needs to start 15 from there. 16 Pictures are worth a thousand words -- I can 17 show you pictures and maybe get under my three minutes I 18 pulled these off the web site from one of the off road 19 organizations this documents the problem far better 20 than I could tell you. It shows multiple vehicles in 21 the river. One photo -- and I'm going to leave these 22 with you. One photo shows up to ten or 11 vehicles in 23 the river or entering the river at the same time. I can 24 tell you, as a fly fisherman -- and I should back up. I 25 floated this section of river that are in these pictures 76 1 about a number of months ago. And it was very 2 discouraging as a fly fisherman. Got to have two things 3 for bass, I'm not a wildlife biologist, but I don't think ou'll disagree with me. You've got to have bugs. 4 You've got to have aquatic life. You've got to have 5 minnows. That's what they eat. That's your bass 6 fishery right there. There's no way that either of 7 those things are going to be in this area. The bugs 8 won't reproduce, the aquatic insect life won't be there, the minnows will head for 9 the hills. The bass will be gone. So I would ask you 10 to take a look at these -- they're discouraging. And when 11 I floated through there several months ago, I saw multiple wheel tracks 12 no sign of fish life. And maybe more importantly and 13 this goes to the issue of is being in the river the 14 issue. Well, being in the river isn't the issue. The issue is is being in the 15 streambed. Because in the areas where there had been 16 multiple wheeled vehicle activity and these are generally large groups ten or 11 that go down the 17 river and the pictures will show you that, the bank 18 was eroded, as well. And there were terribity (sic) in the 19 stream. Fundamentally I'm going to go under my three minutes nd I'm going to leave you these pictures. 20 This is fish habitat issue. That's the first thing we 21 need to protect. And I would ask for the Commission's 22 help as we work on the legislation on this issue. 23 That you guys can support and help us protect this 24 resource. And thanks again for your time. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Charles Draper next. 77 1 MS. LEWEY: Madame Chairman, Commissioners. My name is Sky Lewey. 2 I work for the Nueces River Authority. Con Mims couldn't be with 3 us today. He asked me to bring his remarks. Chairman 4 Idsal and Commissioners, as a member of your 5 recreational vehicles in state owned stream beds task force, I 6 want to thank you for authorizing the group and 7 especially to commend Dr. McKinney and the other TPWD 8 staff who helped him guide this task force. For their 9 highly professional and courteous conduct. Your staff 10 was outstanding and it was a pleasure and honor to 11 serve. Your staff has presented to you a report. 12 Resulting from the work of this task force titled 13 the findings on use of motorized vehicles in navigable 14 streambed task force. Please note from that report that 15 it is the opinion of TPWD staff that in those stream beds 16 where motorized activity is conducted water quality, fish 17 and wildlife and their habitats are 18 negatively affected and that this is an ecologically 19 harmful activity. They further note that Texas rivers 20 and associated plant communities are some of the last 21 relatively in tact, unaffected wildlife and fishery 22 habitats left in Texas. They warn that it appears 23 unlikely that the water quality habitat and fish and 24 wildlife resources in those streams experiencing a water 25 activity can are sustained over the long term. 78 1 Especially if the ORV activity continues and grows as it 2 is expected to do. Please note that this activity is 3 continuing and growing and has spread to the reaches of 4 the upper Nueces River that a year ago were virtually 5 untouched, as shown in the attached photographs. I want 6 to reiterate the urgency of this resource protection 7 matter. Recreational vehicles are not allowed to 8 operate in riverbeds in any state park or wildlife 9 management area in Texas. Recognizing how damaging ORVs 10 can be to the natural resources and how incompatible 11 they are with other river users, other states in the 12 country have laws authorizing the banning of vehicles 13 from the rivers or otherwise controlling their use. 14 Overall, 33 states have river protection laws designed 15 to protect the recreational aesthetic and natural 16 resource values of their rivers. ORVs should not be 17 allowed to spoil the opportunities of other 18 recreationists to fish and swim and paddle and otherwise 19 enjoy a natural environment. They should not be allowed 20 to destroy the beauty of our public rivers for the sake 21 of recreation. Your support of any action to prohibit 22 the use of off-road vehicles in state-owned streambeds 23 would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your 24 considerations of these comments. Con Mims executive 25 director. 79 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thanks to the Nueces 2 River Authority. Charles Draper. Susanna Freduig. 3 Freduig? 4 MR. DRAPER: Good afternoon, Madame 5 Commissioner and Commissioners. My name is Charles 6 Draper, I'm the steward of the Nueces River. Unfortunately, 7 I'm not going to have the full-time with my three minute allocation to get 8 to the report that you are getting right now. It's a 9 presentation I made to the Natural Resource Committee 10 back in February 27th. It really deals with public 11 lands and the gradient boundary theory, which seems to be a real problematical issue between 12 private property rights and what actually belongs to the 13 public lands. 14 Under the Texas Administrative Code on 15 chapter-- subchapter eight, chapter 65 the subchapter 16 applies to all activities subject to the Department of 17 Regulation on lands designated by the department as 18 public hunting lands regardless of the presence or absence of boundary markers. 19 The important point is public hunting lands are acquired 20 by lease or licensed or management agreements trades 21 gift purchased. These records are of acquisition are on file with department of Central 22 depository. In summary, they're recorded 23 conveyances. So the problem is that according to Ben 24 Thompson, who is the General Land Office head surveyor 25 is that the Nueces River none of the Texas rivers have 80 1 ever been surveyed, so there is no survey that 2 ascertain where that boundary line is. With regard to 3 the public domain verses gradient boundaries in chapter 21 of the public survey of 4 lands it says each survey of public land shall be made 5 under the authority of law and by a surveyor duly 6 appointed, elected, licensed, and qualified according to the 7 Vernon Texas Civil Statutes. 8 Now we consider where the state or the 9 landowners survey established the matter of law -- the boundary between the Canadian riverbed and the riparian land. 10 The legislative resolution gave landowner 11 permission to sue the State of Texas as to locate the 12 boundary in Senate House bill 165. But more importantly I would like to go and try 13 to delineate where the gradient boundary is. And we had 14 a landmark case that came out of the Texas Supreme Court 15 which on page two is Brainard, Rogers, Briscoe, Pickens, Pickens, Morrison Cattle Company, Whittenburg, Klein, Turner, Bowes, Whittenburg, et.al petitioners against the State of Texas 16 17 and the General Land Office. And they really 18 looked to Oklahoma versus Texas act which said is in 19 bold this bank is typically the (inaudible) bank and is 20 seldom at -- it the erosion or the cut bank. The point 21 is that a lot of the problem with the 4X4s 22 that are in the rivers they don't delineate between where the gradient boundaries are and what 23 the public lands are and so if they can't delineate it. 24 It's very difficult to ascertain what they are 25 trespassing on and what is actually public lands. So I guess we would like to ask you and 81 1 the commission to educate law enforcement so that they 2 would understand what the gradient boundary is and what is 3 part of the public domains in this next legislative 4 session. 5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Susanna Freduig. 6 MS. FREDUIG: Hi there. I'm Susanna Freduig. 7 For me to be up here, you know it has to be really 8 important. I support the mission of the Stewards of the 9 Nueces. And I was born and raised in Uvalde County. 10 I've grown up forever up and down the river with my 11 brother. We'd go fishing and love the river. But we're 12 seeing it destroyed. And if we don't act now, we're 13 going to lose it. I've got grand kids. I don't want to 14 lose it. So I'm asking y'all to please help us with 15 this situation and save it for -- for my grand kids and for 16 your grand kids. Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 18 (inaudible) 19 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: David Langford. 21 Bobby Beamer. 22 MR. LANGFORD: Thank you, Madame Chairman, members of the Commission. I'm 23 David Langford and I am representing the Texas Wildlife 24 Association. You've heard today from our president, 25 Derry Gardner, and our new CEO, Kirby Brown, and also a 82 1 couple of our brigade cadets. I am fortunate enough to 2 have a new CEO at TWA that will allow me to go back to being a 3 photographer that sometimes helps out around at the TWA 4 office. Consequently, this may be my last time with any 5 official TWA status at this annual public hearing. Next 6 year in August, I might be a private citizen. I'll 7 still be here, but I'll probably be a private citizen. 8 I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those that I 9 have had the privilege to work with since starting in my 10 official capacity here. I have worked with all of the 11 Commission chairmen since Ed Cox to present. I have 12 worked with all of those commissioners since then to 13 present. I was here when Lee bass and Chuck Nash were 14 just commissioners. I've also had the privilege to work 15 with all of the executive directors from then to 16 present. Of course I worked longest officially with 17 Andy Sansom but since Bob Cook and I have known each 18 other since this was a warm shallow sea. I feel like that I 19 have worked with him for a long time. And I 20 especially appreciate working with all of the staff 21 from then to present. Listening to all of these people we 22 have all worked together on many many issues. Some have 23 been very difficult and complicated. Some have been 24 very derisive. Some have been very devisive. Some have 25 been pretty easy to take either side on the debate team. 83 1 And very few have been pretty easy. One of those is I 2 say easy I mean philosophically, not necessarily 3 procedurely or getting it done. I close by saying 4 that this - listen -- is an easy one. There's nothing to this. 5 It's simple. It's not an access issue. This is a 6 damage issue. You cannot go over to the grounds of 7 that pink building over here in downtown Austin - you can sunbathe, you can picnic, 8 you can do whatever you want to out there. It's not an access problem, 9 but you cannot have a tractor pull down there. You can 10 go over here to the Bob Bullock Museum and have all the 11 access you want in there, but you can't get out your ropes and put tons and 12 drive holes in the wall and climb up to the top of the 13 building. Why do you allow the activities outside the 14 borders of Garner State Park that you would not allow 15 inside. I close finish by saying we will go to the '03 16 legislature and work hard to pass legislation not to ban 17 access, but to ban destructive behavior and destructive 18 practices. This is an easy one. Also in favor of the West Texas management is 19 deer permits. And let me tell you the declaration in 20 that hallway out there looks great. Thank you very 21 much. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, David. 23 Bobby Beamer and then Allen Mize. 24 MR. BEAMER: My name is Bobby Beamer. 25 I'm from Spring, Texas. I'm one of the founding board 84 1 members of the Texas Motorized Trails Coalition. I'm 2 one of the two representatives for Texas for the National Off- 3 Highway Vehicle Conservation Council. And I'm not here to talk 4 about river access. I'm here to talk about OHV parks. 5 The work that you've done with Andy and the RTF grant 6 program to help TMTC make an impact and give people a 7 place to go is tremendous. It's historical. And that's 8 where your focus should be. As all these issues that 9 I've been monitoring which I haven't been involved in 10 the task force personally, but I've been monitoring all of 11 the documentation and everything that's been going on. 12 And the focus once or twice came across OHV parks and 13 how that was an outlet to give the 200,000 ATVs in this state a place to 14 go. There's kids sitting in their driveways on ATVs 15 pretending to ride because they have nowhere to go and 16 play. That's where we come in. That's where we've 17 gathered the management team that can help make it 18 possible. I'd like you to look at California's system 19 with 130 privately owned and municipal and nonprofit 20 organization funded managed properties where people can 21 go ride off road, which alleviates the issues that we're 22 having now. I'd like for you look at the PALS Program 23 in California, especially where they give urban kids a 24 chance to go out and play, teach them how to properly 25 use the equipment and have some fun. And as far as 85 1 teenage boys are concerned, an ATV is dangerous and exciting. 2 And that's exactly what they want to do, rather than 3 hang out with their buddies and get in trouble. And if 4 you give them a chance, they'll do it. I talked to Paul 5 Slobak (sic) and Harold Sloams (sic) in California at all of the 6 NOHBC meetings that we've had about their PALS and program and trying to 7 implement something like that in Texas. It's a 8 difficult job and it's going to be -- it's going to take 9 money and time. But if we can do It, we can take the 10 next generation of kids and get them out of illegal 11 trail riding, which is what my dad and I had to face all 12 the way back when I started riding, and still do. And 13 focus them in these little pocket parks that we can 14 build close to urban areas where the kids and their dads can load them in the 15 truck -- 20 minutes later there are some place where they can have some fun and they're not going 16 to be tempted to go riding illegally on the creeks and the springs and the bayous close 17 to their homes. Got my speech. I'd like you to -- I'd 18 like you to help the recreational trails fund make two 19 changes, if at all possible. Probably not possible, but 20 if at all possible that the first it GLO properties 21 and Texas Parks and Wildlife properties that are 22 unsuitable for hike and bike are exactly what the off 23 road community want - nobody else wants them -- give us the opportunity to use the 24 recreational trails found to buy those properties. And 25 that's all I have to say. That's plenty. That's going 86 1 to keep us busy for the next decade. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Allan Mize and then Carol 3 Smith. 4 MR. MIZE: Commissioners, thank you for 5 your time. With this there's little I can say. I'm -- 6 first of all, I'm Allen Mize. I'm from Uvalde and I'm 7 also a member of the Friends of the Nueces, the Stewards 8 of the Nueces River. I've been a property owner on the 9 Nueces River since I was born. My father bought five 10 acres of land because he loved to enjoy the Nueces 11 River. And I've been there all my life. And there's 12 little I can say about the situation more than any other 13 has said other than an experience that I had here 14 recently in July, just to shed a little light on the 15 magnitude of the situation. The gradient boundary 16 situation was brought up earlier. And when a four-wheel 17 drive vehicle enters the basin within a few hundred yards down the river, 18 they have to make a decision whether they're going to 19 trespass or whether they're going to drive in the river. 20 That's just the way that the riverbottom is. The state 21 owned property is defined by the gradient boundary. And 22 a four-wheel drive person, as they go down the river, 23 has just got that decision to make - are you going to drive in the river or are you going to 24 trespass. 25 I was -- I took my six-year-old girl 87 1 fishing about the middle of July. And in the amount of 2 time of the six-year-old's attention span, 53 vehicles 3 went down the river right there around the Montell area. 4 Some in the water some trespassing, but all down the 5 river bottom. One group of 14 and those 14 crossed the 6 river just down stream from where we were. And folks, 7 that's that's pretty hard on the ecology of the river. 8 It's been documented also that these groups have been 9 counted in excessive of 108 vehicles in a row driving down the 10 river. Something has got to be done about this. I think the challenges at that 11 you face and all of us face is that these folks don't 12 realize that they're doing anything wrong. As a 13 recently elected school board member in Uvalde, I find 14 it shameful that in my own district we don't teach 15 ecology. We've got to get in the classroom at the 16 elementary school level. And I think Texas Parks and 17 Wildlife can maybe get with TDA or TEA, Texas Education 18 Agency, Texas Association of School Boards. And we've 19 got to get in the classroom at the elementary school 20 level and stay there through the through the level and 21 up to graduation. Again, education in the areas of solutions, park 22 -- the gentlemen before me spoke about parks. Let's 23 give them a place to go. It's a growing sport. Let's 24 just get them out of the Nueces River bottom. And 25 regulation, I think that's the only way to go at 88 1 this situation right now short-term. Long term, it's 2 education. And the last thing I'd say is read your 3 own mission statement. I was going to read it to you, 4 but all of you know it. And it's right there in your 5 mission statement. I read it in the lobby. Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Next I believe we 7 have Carol Smith and followed by Nick Smith. 8 MS. SMITH: Good afternoon, 9 Commissioners, Commissioner Armstrong. My name is Carol 10 Smith. I represent the American Motorcyclists 11 Association Community Council for the Texas Hill 12 Country. I have had handouts please - no dear -- the 13 ones that are in front. I'm sorry. I brought quite a 14 bit of paper with me today. I am also a member of the 15 Riverbed Task Force. I'm also a member of the TMTC 16 Board of Directors, which Bobby Beamer spoke about 17 earlier. At the House of Representatives, I presented a 18 letter from the AMA, which Chairman Idsal should have a 19 copy of. I didn't have enough to give everybody. But 20 I'd like to read the beginning opening statement of 21 that. The American Motorcyclist Association is a not 22 for profit organization founded in 1924 and incorporated 23 in Ohio with nearly 270,000 enthusiast members 24 nationwide. About 10,500 of them live in Texas. Too 25 often, motorized recreation has been managed by 89 1 extremes, either by being ignored or prohibited. The 2 ongoing debate reaffirms the need for the state to manage off- highway 3 vehicle use by providing appropriate recreation 4 opportunities. In 2001 alone, more than 45,000 new ATVs 5 were told in the state of Texas. Texas ranks number one 6 in ATV sales in the nation. Yet the state provides only 7 minimal managed recreation opportunities. With this, 8 I'd like for you to look at the booklets that you have 9 there. In the very back of that booklet, there is a 10 map. If you'd open that map and look at it, you'll note 11 that California has 133 OHV parks. A number of those 12 are managed by Forestry Service. A number of those are 13 managed by their Parks and Recreation. A number of 14 those are managed by municipalities. When you mention 15 scientific evidence, I have a -- I'm sorry. I keep 16 losing my thing here. I'd like you to notice this stack 17 of paperwork that I've brought here. That is six states 18 that have done months and years of study on OHV 19 recreation usage. This is what Parks and Wildlife has 20 presented. Okay? Rick Taylor, when I interviewed him 21 on November 19th of the year 2001, said that this was an 22 informal survey, that he was not an expert on river 23 ecology. I would ask please that we do more scientific 24 evidence before we have a chance to close these river 25 beds. There are many of these like the Mendacino (sic) 90 1 National Forest upper lake ranger district in upper lake California, which states that given that 98 2 percent of the erosion occurs during rain storms, the 3 natural ability of the stream to clean sediment out had a big 4 effect on the sample result. This is the downstream 5 control samples were at times cleaner than the upstream 6 control. This is the difference often much greater than 7 the impact from trail runoff. 8 COMMISSIONER COOK: Ma'am? 9 MS. SMITH: Many of with these studies will prove that with managed 10 recreation opportunities there is no trails damage. 11 There's no stream damage. 12 COMMISSIONER COOK: Okay. Ms. Smith, 13 time is up. MS. SMITH: Yes. MR. COOK: Time is up. 14 MS. SMITH: Okay. I have some other 15 information that I'd like to give to you afterwards. I 16 don't have enough time today. But I'd like to work with 17 you in creating managed off-road vehicle opportunities 18 for the state. Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Nick Smith and 20 Raynice Shudde. 21 MR. SMITH: Hi, my name is Nick Smith. And I am board 22 of directors with the AMA Community Hill Country 23 Council. And a little bit of the testimony y'all have 24 heard here this afternoon concerning tubing and kayaking 25 you need a couple of things for that on the Nueces 91 1 River, which is plenty of water. On the average, from 2 what I've seen, I've been recreating, hunting, trying 3 to fish for about 40 years there. On the average, I see 4 three to six inches of water -- very difficult to kayak 5 in or inner tube. I've spent a lot of time there up and down the lower part of the Nueces -- the 6 upper side of it. I have seen a lot of things that none 7 pp see coming from particularly the landowners and stuff 8 are very valid about people being drunk, drug use. You 9 can find that anywhere. You don't have to go to the 10 River to find this. It's everywhere. So it's not just 11 strictly something that's happening at the river. And 12 that's kind of a management problem. And I think if we 13 were going to try to close the rivers and deny people 14 vehicular access, then you've basically privatized these 15 areas for all the parents and grandparents and their 16 grandkids, because I will not be able to get there at 17 that point. You have to make places accessible for the 18 handicapped. Most of the good swimming holes that I 19 have found are four or five miles off the beaten path and you're not going 20 to hike to -- I'm certainly not going to hike to them and if you close it to vehicle 21 access, you privatize it at that point because your 22 public is basically not going to be there. You're not 23 going to canoe there. You're not going to inner tube there. There just simply isn't enough 24 water to get in there at any given time. So I ask 25 that we look at some of the options that are being created and brought forward to 92 1 you, especially in the -- in terms of the studies that 2 have been brought to you'll through Parks and Wildlife. We need to find out if 3 this river is functioning properly, regardless of what 4 it looks like. Our wildlife and stuff is a different 5 issue from the looks of maybe some running areas and 6 stuff. So we're providing our own studies to find out 7 if the river is functioning properly and what areas of 8 it are doing that. And that's what we hope to 9 accomplish and bring forward to a panel at a later date. 10 We're not going to work out of simple speculation of 11 photographs and people's opinions. I've been to every 12 one of these task force meetings and listened to quite a 13 bit of it. So with some more studies if we find a 14 problem, then hopefully we can find a solution and help 15 solve it. And it's going to be done through studies and 16 not through speculation. Thank y'all. 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: George Garner: Get 18 ready. I think. 19 MR. GARNER: Madame Chairman and 20 commissioners, my name is George Garner. And I'm not a 21 representative of any organization or anything. I'm 22 just a citizen of Texas. And I my subject today is 23 public use of public land. And I do think there's an 24 issue here about access, because if I wasn't driving a 25 vehicle but just walking down the river, I would find 93 1 landowners -- some of those in this room would object to 2 me being there. Just my presence on this state-owned 3 land is an offense to them. And I feel like that 97 4 percent of the state is privately owned as it is. 5 There's three percent left needs to be kept open to the 6 public for the public's use. And I agree with the 7 gentlemen prior to me that talked about -- about 8 providing places. If you don't want the four-wheel 9 drives to run up and down on the rivers, then provide 10 another place for them, because there's a lot of ATVs. 11 I don't know how many thousands somebody said was sold 12 every year. And there's a lot of people that own 13 four-wheel drives. Now, I don't own a four-wheel drive 14 Now, I don't own a four-wheel drive and I don't run up and down the river. But I think 15 there should be a place for those people. And Parks and 16 Wildlife are acquiring lands regularly acquisitions of 17 lands. There was about three of them in the agenda this 18 morning. So that there's bound to be someplace for 19 these folks to go with their four-wheel-drive vehicles. 20 And most citizens don't know that public land has a 21 legal -- public citizens have a legal right to use these 22 river bed lands for recreation such as picnicking and 23 hiking and biking and whatever. It belongs to the state 24 and ought to be made available to the public and access 25 should be left open. I would like to ask the Parks and 94 1 Wildlife to stop trying to get the legislature to pass 2 more laws restricting the public from using the rivers, 3 beaches, or other public lands for recreation. Hunting 4 has already been outlawed in 18 counties in Texas. And 5 the list grows longer each year. It started with three 6 counties, and now it's 18. So anyway, bottom line is we 7 need to keep public land open to the public, period. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Raynice Shudde. 9 MS. SHUDDE: Madame Chairman, members of the board. My name is Raynice Shudde. 10 I'm from Uvalde. I'm a third generation Nueces River 11 lover. My grandparents lived on the upper Nueces. My 12 dad and mother lived in Uvalde. There's been nothing 13 like the destruction for this length of time. The 14 stories I've heard were always walking the river, 15 fishing the river, enjoying the river. But we were 16 always taught great responsibility for the river. The 17 last few years, it's been extremely apparent that 18 someone must take a stand and protect this wonderful 19 resource we have. 20 I was noting the Texas river sign out in 21 the hall. I think each one of you would be embarrassed 22 - I sure would - to put up a Nueces River out there with the ruts 23 and the destruction that is going on at this point. I 24 do agree. I think it would be wonderful to have some 25 places for these off-road vehicles, but certainly not in 95 1 the riverbeds. And I can't add any more than what or 2 David had said. It has nothing to do with access. It 3 has all to do with destruction. And as a third 4 generation river lover, I just -- I hope you-all will 5 look down the line at the next three generations of 6 Texans, the future Texans, that you represent will be 7 privileged and allowed to enjoy the natural beauty of 8 the river without the vehicles in it. Thank you very 9 much. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Heinz 11 Aeschbach and Margaret Aeschbach. Did I get that right? 12 MR. AESCHBACH: I want to mention two 13 things here shortly. Number one, about McKinney Falls 14 State Park. I would like to make another strong 15 statement I wrote to you-all. We talked here about it, 16 that the park should not be transferred. There are so 17 many reasons I'm not going to enumerate them now. It 18 just seems incredible that it is still in the final 19 draft. 20 But number two, looking at the document I 21 see looking at this I find it to be quite flawed. And 22 the draft, the final one, is not that much changed. 23 First we need to look at priorities. I think the 24 priorities are that there are state parks that are 25 accessible where people can experience nature, where they 96 1 can learn about nature. They can learn about history that 2 improve quality of life and improve mental health and improve physical health. 3 The document shows 98 percent of Texans 4 feel it is important to have an opportunity to go to 5 state parks. You have the statistic 33 percent that go 6 to state parks. We have a discrepancy of 65 percent. 7 Two-thirds of the Texas population obviously wants more 8 access. Now, how do you get more access if you close 9 several good state parks that are right where the people 10 are? Then about assumptions. There are notions about 11 size. We want big state parks. Why? Nature is nature. 12 You don't need a lot of back (inaudible) we have to distinquish 13 between parks for quality of life and we have to 14 look at management and natural eco systems. That's not 15 the same. Then we look at the distinctions, also. 16 There is a big distinction between a national park or 17 state park alongside the nature is important. And your 18 county parks, you can't switch these two. (inaudible) 19 20 The city park and the state park is not the same. You cannot switch McKinney Falls State Park or Kerrville 21 state park or Lockhart State Park to a city that is not that function. These 22 are not baseball fields. These are not places for 23 people to go drinking and running their dogs, et cetera. I 24 wanted to just shortly talk about. In this document, 25 you have the distinction of 90 mile radius. I talked 97 1 about that before. It just doesn't make sense to look 2 at something arbitrarily and make a big document out of it. 3 MS. AESCHBACH: I'm Margaret Aeschbach. 4 And I've lived in Texas most of my life. State parks in 5 my estimation are special and unique. It's a shame that other 6 special and unique places like for example, Barton Creek greenbelt were not 7 dedicated as state parks for conservation and 8 protection. I really appreciate the way the McKinney Falls 9 State Park has been maintained over the 20 -- last 26 years of its 10 existence. And I appreciate the balance between 11 recreation and habitat. 12 The staff and volunteers do an excellent 13 job of interpreting the special features, and mostly 14 maintaining an overall atmosphere of order and respect. 15 The specialists of McKinney Falls State Park 16 is well documented. And I have here the little 17 document. It's about the Texas Historical Society 18 of one of the unsung heroes of the Texas Revolution, Thomas McKinney 19 and this recent publication about the 20 geology of McKinney Falls State Park. It's good to be 21 mindful of the gift of the land donated by the Smith 22 family from McKinney Falls State Park and the Texas 23 Parks and Wildlife Headquarters where we are right now. This bronze plaque in the lobby will have to be replaced if the 24 McKinney Falls State Park goes over to the city or 25 the LCRA. The plan to develop 5,000-acre parks within a 98 1 90-mile radius may look good on paper, but for a real 2 life park users those numbers are purely arbitrary. Why 5,000 3 acres? Do the planners black bear to the Texas hill 4 country? I recently visited the Davis Mountains. And 5 I couldn't -- one of the parks that's been expanded over 6 the 4th of July weekend. There was no one using the 7 primitive camping area. And the hike and bike -- the 8 mountain bike trail, no one there, as well. And 9 furthermore, it was so badly rutted from disuse and 10 erosion that it was only really possible for the most 11 experienced and best equipped bikers. I'm all in favor 12 of 5,000-acre nature preserves but let's not be diluted in thinking that Texans 13 all want a back country experience. Texans need the 14 opportunity to reconnect with nature and their families. 15 State parks are not theme parks. Reading a book, 16 breaking a pinata, taking a flap are all immeasurably valuable activities, . 17 but most importantly, let's not forget respecting, learning about 18 nature as interpreted through guided walks, interpretive 19 trails, and displays like you can find at 20 McKinney Falls State Park. This plan sites Texas as 21 being the first in the state with the largest number of 22 bird species. And I'd wager to say that all of the ones 23 listed on page 36 of the plan can probably priority 24 bird species, which are declining, are probably 25 observable at McKinney Falls State Park. Thank you. 99 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Kyle 2 McCain and Janice Bezanson. Please try to limit your 3 comments. I have to repeat this again to three minutes. 4 MR. MCCAIN: My name is Kyle McCain, I'm the city 5 manager with the City of Mejia. Confederate Reunion 6 Grounds were put on the low priority list. There was a 7 lot of worry that was raised in Mejia. The state park 8 there sits between the old to Fort Parker Restoration site and 9 Tort Parker. These are very near the Booker T. 10 Washington-Comanche crossing park. These parks all sit 11 within the 90-mile radius of the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex and the park, Confederate Union Grounds specifically 12 represent a unique -- two unique parts or 13 distinct parts of Texas history. One is the post 14 reconstruction post civil war period where the 15 confederate reunions were held in that area. And one 16 of the things they built there was a little pavilion 17 which is a beautiful structure and used to this day for 18 weddings and other reunions. The other part of it is the oil boom 19 in the 1920s, Mejia boomed 50 to 70,000 20 population. And that park was the source of water for 21 the oil boom. So there's two parks that are very 22 closely tied into history. The communities in our 23 area -- the city of Groesbeck, Limestone County, city of Mejia put a lot of money into the 24 Old Fort Parker restoration . And we, in fact, the City 25 of Mejia puts a lot of money out of our hotel motel occupancy tax to promote all three of these parks. In 100 1 fact, all four of the parks the Confederate Reunion Grounds, Fort Parker, 2 -- the Old Fort Parker restoration site in trying to 3 develop historical tourism in our area. And we would 4 like not only to see that the Confederate Reunion Grounds 5 are protected as a state park, but my mayor has also 6 asked me to go one step beyond that and ask that y'all 7 consider hiking trails and campground facilities at the 8 Confederate Reunion Grounds. And that park sitting 9 between the other two parks actually would be part of 10 the link between hiking trails connecting all of three of these 11 areas. 12 Anyway, we would like primarily to make 13 sure that the Confederate Reunion Grounds does receive 14 consideration to stay on the list and would appreciate 15 your consideration in that area. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Janice 17 Bezanson. Is that correct? Oh, hi. Good to see you. 18 And Terry Colley. 19 MS. BEZANSON: Thank you, Madame 20 Chairman, members of the Commission. I'm Janice 21 Bezanson and I'm with the Texas Committee on Natural 22 Resources. We call it TCNR for the acronym. We're a 23 34-year old statewide conservation group and also the 24 affiliate -- state affiliate of the National Wildlife 25 Federation. My members follow Parks and Wildlife issues 101 1 very closely and sometimes they get a little exercised about it. And we're up here 2 really hammering on you a little bit, but I always appreciate the August comment 3 session because it gives me a chance to say thank you for all the things that you're 4 doing right. And there are so very, very many of those. 5 Particularly of interest to my members are the resource 6 protection functions of Texas Parks and Wildlife. Water 7 quality regulations that protect fish and wildlife 8 resources and particularly any activity that avoids 9 destruction of wildlife habitat are of critical 10 importance to us. 11 One of the things we do every other year 12 to try to show our appreciation to the commission and the department is we testify before the 13 legislature when it comes time for the Parks and 14 Wildlife budget to show up. And I think this year is 15 going to be one of the most critical years ever, because 16 we're in a situation where if we do not begin in 17 the state of Texas and really aggressively the land acquisition 18 program, we're going to end up without the wildlife 19 resources that we need in the future. 20 If you look at the water - at the Parks and 21 Wildlife Conservation Plan that is about to be adopted 22 has recently gone through the public hearing and you 23 calculate, you know, the projected growth in population 24 for the state of Texas and then you look at the 25 recommendations for land acquisition, you find that if we do 102 1 grow at that rate and if we buy everything that's 2 recommended in the plan, ten years from now, we are 3 going to have fewer acres of Parks and Wildlife land per 4 capita than we have today. That's going to be a 5 recreational problem, as well as a wildlife problem. 6 But almost more serious even than that is that 7 so many of the large pieces of land in the state of 8 Texas are being chopped up into smaller pieces when land goes on the market many, 9 many times what it's being bought for is either 10 urbanization or being chopped up into smaller pieces. 11 And we need large pieces of land in order to provide breeding and habitat for the 12 wildlife of Texas. So we're going to be at the 13 legislature supporting you and we hope you'll will be there asking for some money for a lot 14 more land acquisition. Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Terry 16 Colley. And then Jay Kane. 17 MR. COLLEY: Chairman Armstrong. Members 18 of the Commission. I'm Terry Colley and the deputy executive director of the Texas 19 Historical Commission. And I, like the lady that 20 preceded me, appreciate the time -- you went straight to 21 red, didn't you, Bob? 22 MR. COOK: I knew it was you, Terry. I 23 do that every once in a while. I'm watching you. 24 MR. COLLEY: Well, we, 25 too, appreciate the work that you do. And you've got a 103 1 lot of issues to deal with. You know the one that we're 2 most involved with is historic sites obviously and we know that if there was an easy solution to this 3 it would have been done already. So we 4 appreciate you appointing the historic sites advisory committee. We appreciate the 5 work of the staff, Bob and Walt and Bill and Cynthia and 6 Lydia. And we want to continue to work with you on it. 7 And I promised Bob that I'd quit shooting him in the 8 foot and try not to do my own foot, too, at the same, 9 too. So thank you very much. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you very much, 11 Terry. And I do want to compliment the Historical 12 Commission, your great leader, John Nau, and the staff 13 for all the cooperation you have shown. And we look 14 forward to working together. We've had a lot of 15 examples in this morning's meetings of interagency cooperation. I don't want the 16 Historical Commission and Parks and Wildlife to be any exception. 17 Thank you very much. 18 Jay Kane and Mary Tallent. 19 MS. KANE: Good afternoon, Madame 20 Chairman. Commissioners. I'm -- my name is Jay Kane. 21 I'm a biologist. My forte is native plants. And I'm a 22 board Native Prairie Association of Texas. I'm not here 23 to ask for money to put in my own pocket. Biologists 24 don't make any money anyway. Y'all know that. I'm not 25 here to ask for money for recreating in any shape or 104 1 form, motorized or otherwise. But what I'm here to ask 2 for is that you-all look very closely at helping save, 3 through conservation easements, the last little remnants 4 of prairie that this state has. Gene asked me to talk 5 about the surveys that we did. Two years ago, we 6 started surveying to try to find out how much of native 7 prairies -- I'm talking about real prairie. I'm not 8 talking about recreated or reconstructed which I try to do, but nobody does a 9 really good job of it. I mean - the Lord did it right the first time and that's the way it is. And 10 we looked at the sites that David Riskind and David 11 Diamond surveyed 30 years ago when they were working 12 with Dr. Fred Smeins to figure out what the plant 13 community association in Texas was on these prairies. And we found 14 that we've lost a third of the remnants in the last 15 thirty years. And what we did find some new ones, but 16 they're all small. So I know y'all are focused on big 17 acreage. And that is important. But what the germ 18 (inaudible) and genotypes and eco types that are left to use 19 to reconstruct these prairies in other areas are only left 20 in these little areas. And they're going to be gone 21 real soon. So we need more conservation easements to finish surveying these areas so 22 that's what I'm asking money for. Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you very much. 24 A subject near and dear to my heart, as well, being the 25 co-chairman of the South Texas Native Plant Restoration. 105 1 I applaud your effort. 2 Mary Tallent and Jack Love. MR. COOK: Mary's gone. 3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Jack Love and Diane Wassenich. 4 MR. LOVE: I'm Jack Love. I'm from Mico, 5 Texas. Everybody knows where Mico is. That's where the 6 dam was getting ready to break July 4th, two months 7 ago. I'm the fire chief. Let's just do this like a 8 wreck. I'll get through it real quick. I found out not 9 too long ago an open records is a very powerful tool. 10 Here is 175 pages I got from Medina County on the low 11 water bridge below Medina Lake dam that's fenced off 12 right now. The public is being denied access. 13 I have a packet I want to leave with 14 y'all. Hopefully, someone will look at it. Here -- if 15 I can go through my packet a little bit. Here's the 16 Texas Supreme Court Law, Diversion Lake versus Heath. 17 Okay? And it says, anywhere there's a navigable stream 18 and a public road crosses, the public has the right to 19 get in it. Okay? That is the bridge right below Medina 20 dam. Right now, it's fenced off. Okay. Of course, 21 those fences got torn down during the flood. Okay. 22 Everybody got equalized. And I have some pictures of 23 that. And, like this guy said right here, pictures are 24 worth a thousand words. And here's a picture here in 25 the Medina River. And it says, private property, 106 1 warning, unlawful entry could subject you to fine or 2 imprisonment, blah, blah, blah. It's sitting in state 3 water. That's what the Supreme Court of Texas said. 4 And the property owners have signs in there saying you 5 can't get here. 6 Now, here's the new bridge. They just 7 tore down the old bridge. They built a new bridge, but 8 the -- both the -- the approaches just got washed out. 9 There's no way for the public to launch a canoe anymore 10 in there, to get in it. But what I'm concerned with 11 is -- and it overlaps -- is fire protection. I no 12 longer can get water for my fire trucks. Neither can 13 any other fire department. 14 12 -- I've been fire chief for a long 15 time out there. I've drug in many a body, stopped 16 runaway boats, and done everything. And now I'm asking 17 y'all for help. 12 years ago, we had -- I'm sorry if 18 I'm using up the time. 12 years ago, we had ten fire 19 departments and 33 fire trucks out there looking for 20 water. Okay. We can no longer get to it. Okay. 21 And here's pictures of the fences. We 22 paid $956, people of state of Texas. Here's in 1915 23 where they petitioned Medina Commissioner's Court, 24 turned it into a 50-foot first class road. Okay? And 25 now the people have fenced it out. The people that 107 1 fenced it -- we paid -- taxpayers paid for this sod, and 2 it's now seven foot behind their fence. I don't know 3 what else to do here. 4 I've got -- also there's the yellow 5 light -- okay. I've got four diskettes I got from Texas 6 Department of Transportation. I'm not going to leave 7 them with you. But if you want them, it's got pictures 8 of the bridge prior to construction, after construction. 9 And TxDOT did not get involved in any fences. And now 10 the fences are there. The public can't get in there. 11 And the Supreme Court said they were 12 granted a permanent injunction from ever erecting 13 fences. Okay. And they have done it. So there's the 14 law, and nobody is doing anything about it. Okay? 15 Thank y'all. 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Madame Chairman. Parks and Wildlife 18 doesn't have any authority, does it? 19 MR. LOVE: What do you mean, they don't 20 have any authority? They're telling people they can't 21 fish there. 22 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: What authority does 23 Parks and Wildlife have? 24 MR. COOK: Tim. 25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Have you gone to 108 1 TxDot? 2 MR. LOVE: Yes, I've been to TxDOT. I've 3 been -- TxDot is not involved in the fences. Like I 4 told you just a minute ago, they didn't get involved. 5 That was a handshake deal between Medina County and the 6 fence builder, $5,000. That's not in my open records 7 request of 175 pages here. 8 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Love -- the point is -- and 9 I believe Mr. Cook can say it -- can respond to that. 10 The Parks and Wildlife has no authority whatsoever to 11 enforce the no fencing laws. 12 MR. LOVE: Okay. Then why were they 13 telling -- why are they telling people they can't fish 14 in there? 15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Well, now, that's a 16 different -- you're talking about a different subject. 17 MR. LOVE: Well, it kind of overlaps 18 when you say you can't go in there. 19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Who is telling 20 people they can't fish there? 21 MR. LOVE: You've got Medina County 22 deputies and others. It's interesting that the 23 Medina County deputies are on the payroll of the people 24 with the fences. 25 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: But not Parks and 109 1 Wildlife. 2 THE LOVE: Boy, I -- you can get in real 3 trouble talking here. You know what I mean? 4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I don't -- I guess 5 I don't understand what your point is. 6 MR. LOVE: No. You ain't out there. But 7 I mean, it's just -- you've got fences there. They're 8 erected in the wrong spot. 9 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Sir, I recognize 10 you're frustrated and you've really got some serious 11 problems. But my point is that we -- there's nothing 12 this body can do about it. 13 MR. LOVE: Okay. But, I mean -- then we 14 can conclude there that someone can go in there and go 15 fishing? 16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I -- is that 17 correct? I would presume so. 18 MR. LOVE: Since there is a Supreme Court 19 decision on that -- on that very bridge granting it. 20 I'm sorry if I bring -- you know, sometimes the truth 21 will not make you popular. 22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Do you know -- is 23 that stream defined as a navigable stream? 24 MR. LOVE: Of course, it is. It's the 25 Medina River. 110 1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: It is. Okay. 2 MR. LOVE: It's the virgin lake. 3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The only other 4 issue -- who has placed those fences? Did the county 5 place the fence or the abutting landowners? Or do you 6 know? 7 MR. LOVE: Well, the county and the 8 abutting land owners -- a handshake deal, like the 9 Medina County Judge says, that's not going to be in the 10 request. That was a handshake deal between us and the 11 fence builder. And it just sits there. And people 12 drive by and it says, you know, private property. And 13 it's not private property. 14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Well, I think I 15 agree with Mr. Angelo, vice chairman, we don't have 16 jurisdiction over that. You ought to -- 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Have you been to the 18 commissioners court? 19 MR. LOVE: Oh, yes, I've been to 20 commissioners court. And they just -- I am frustrated. 21 And it's not that -- I can't get water for my fire 22 trucks anymore because of the new fences. That's my 23 only source of water, basically. Okay? And now we're 24 fenced out. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Why don't we review 111 1 the information you brought to us, and perhaps we can 2 get to you and -- with some information as to who the 3 jurisdiction -- who does hold jurisdiction. 4 MR. LOVE: Perfect. 5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 MR. LOVE: I understand the incident 7 command system. You're IC. I'm IC. Let's do 8 something. 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 10 MS. WASSENICH: My name is Diane 11 Wassenich. I'm the executive director of the San Marcos 12 River Foundation. And I served on the Texas Parks and 13 Wildlife Rivers Conservation Advisory Board and the 14 four-by-four task force most recently. And I want to 15 thank you for the opportunity because it really widened 16 my experience and my understanding of the issues that 17 you face. I had no idea 17 years ago, when I started 18 working on water quality and water quantity issues, that 19 I would be spending so much time talking about the 20 four-by-four issue. But I did learn a lot and I do 21 encourage you to find ways for the four-by-four 22 community to have places using the gas tax funds. 23 I won't cover all that because so many 24 other people have covered it today. But I do have 25 brochures about the San Marcos River Foundation water 112 1 right application that I want to leave with you today. 2 And I would appreciate the opportunity to 3 answer any questions individually and meet with any of 4 you individually who would like to know more about it. 5 Basically, we applied for a water right because it 6 became very clear to us that your -- your study of 1998, 7 published in 1998, the huge study about the Guadalupe 8 Estuary, was shelved and was not being used by the 9 agency that does do water right granting. 10 In public meetings, we have been told 11 that, yes, they knew that study showed that a certain 12 amount of water was required to keep that bay alive. 13 But TNRCC could not figure out how to use that study. 14 And we came to the conclusion that if we didn't step up 15 and lay some money on the table and apply for the water 16 right, that there was going to be no water left to 17 discuss about how much to leave for the bays and 18 estuaries. And so that's why we applied. 19 This has been going on for about two and 20 a half years. We hope to have a draft permit very soon. 21 And it's going to come down to whether or not your 22 study, Texas Parks and Wildlife's study, is a respected 23 and true representation of how much water is needed by 24 the Guadalupe Estuary. 25 There is a lot of people who are going to 113 1 be opposed to using that study. But I encourage you to 2 encourage your staff to defend that study. It's an 3 important precedent-setting one. And it is key to 4 whether the Guadalupe Estuary will survive or not. 5 Thank you for all y'all are doing on the land and water 6 plan. We've read. We've commented on it. There's some 7 great stuff about water in there. It's going to be up 8 to you, as the agency that does protect the resources of 9 the state, to make sure that our rivers and our bays and 10 estuaries survive. I'm afraid no one else is going to 11 do it. 12 So I thank you for the energy you've put 13 into it, the time and the money. And thank you for what 14 you're going to be doing in the coming year. Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. That 16 concludes the public comment. I do need to acknowledge, 17 for the record, the letter from Dana Larson regarding 18 the causeway rubble creating the world's biggest and 19 best artificial reef. 20 Mr. Cook, is there any other business to 21 come before this commission today? 22 MR. COOK: No, ma'am. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I declare ourselves 24 adjourned. Thank you, very much. 25 (ADJOURNED) ___________________________________ Katharine Armstrong, Chairman ___________________________________ Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman ___________________________________ John Avila, Jr., Member __________________________________ Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, Member __________________________________ Alvin L. Henry, Member __________________________________ Philip Montgomery, III, Member _________________________________ Donato D. Ramos, Member __________________________________ Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Member __________________________________ Mark E. Watson, Jr., Member