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Tuesday, November 17, 2009
James White Refutes Zakir Naik
43 comments:
- Ari said...
At least something changed! He no longer repeats the VCR analogy but upgraded to a DVD. Who says he isn't on the cutting edge of anti-Christian propaganda?
- November 18, 2009 at 3:46 AM
- leviMichealathan said...
pitty dr james had to spend so much time refuting stupid claims...
oh well...the work of a Christian is never done; we r called to give an answer to all questions/objections: the good the bad and the ugly!
naik and others always say: if the Deity of Jesus is so important, why is there no outright statement from Jesus.
suppose we accept that as a good argument. let's turn this argument around...
If the mentioning of muhammad in the Bible is so important, why is there not a single outright statement in the Bible (not that there r any)?
i wish i could listen to the full debate between shabir and james. - November 18, 2009 at 5:02 AM
- VJ said...
joker naik refuted once again by DR white...pity he had to waste a lot of time on that ignorant fool,
i am pretty sure Dr joker naik will never take up the debate challenge since hes a coward for the last many years.,,
like said by Ali sina hes just a showman..
and all his excellent memory is waste cause it doesn't have logic in scholarly perspective..
anyways its still destined for one place and that HELL....lol
at least osama being the worst of all has the courage to face his opponents..unlike Dr naik...maybe he should learn something from osama..........:) - November 18, 2009 at 12:43 PM
- Fernando said...
VJ saide: «at least osama being the worst of all has the courage to face his opponents...unlike Dr naik»...
yes... I totally agree withe you... and that's whie people likke the Muslim Photon saies Osama is the #1 muslim apologist in the entire World... - November 18, 2009 at 4:18 PM
- thegrandverbalizer19 said...
James White makes a point that is interesting, but doesn't do Islam justice. His favourite statement 'Islamic Apologetics is Bankrupt'.
You know what we have James White (possibly among the top 5 best representative for Protestant apologetics) debating Sami Zatari a 20 year old college entry student!
Awesome James that must have been some mighty challenge indeed.
The times I did see James try to defend the integrity of the scriptures against Shabir Ally and Bart Ehrman epic fail!
1) Of course he was playing devils advocate using a slick line of well the Qur'an does actually not say that the Bible is corrupted. Which is true; however he never gave any positive arguments on why to accept the Bible. Infact maybe some one can show me any book, publication or blog entry where James White gives his 'evidence that demands a verdict' so to speak.
Again epic failure on behalf of James. Great at debating poor on invitation.
Round 2) With Shabir Ally again James just looked tired and like he just strung some arguments together. When Shabir corners him during question and answered James does seem rattled and this is very uncharachteristic of James during cross examination.
The proof that James doesn't really want honest dialouge with Muslims is the very telling fact that Shabir Ally's rejoinders to James are still awaiting replies.
Also don't people as Christians as truth seekers wonder why James would want to debate Zakir Naik? Think about. Zakir Naik is amazing at rattling off verses from the Qur'an and the Bible that's just about it.
So since Zakir Naik doesn't have depth in apologetics that Shabir has why would James want to debate him?
James is a calvanist and he believes that the gospel message is only for the elect although I was impressed by his recent debate in Australlia where I said to myself 'omg' is James actually evangelizing?
Maybe the goal of James White would be to show the Muslim side or those listening attentively just how lacking Zakir Naik is in depth. I think that would be a noble goal and if that is what he sets out to achieve that Zakir Naik is not the juggernaught Indian Muslims think he is than have it mate.
But if James or any Christians/Muslims want meaningful exchange it would be nice to see more written debates, more thought out more time to respond and reflect. I think they have more substance. Though in the entertainment religiously charged atmosphere of today where emotions run high who doesn't want to grab some pop corn and see a Christian and Muslim dawn their egotistical alter egos and clash on a podium of heated exchanges to the thrill and amusement of the dumb downed audience.
I mean another thing too maybe some people simply don't have the skill to debate others.
Case in point Sam Shamoun doesn't debate Ergun Caner.
James White has been running away from Bobb Ross (google him) for a very long time on the issue of regeneration before faith. Why?
James White Refutes Zakir Naik , yawn..
James White debated Nadir Ahmed and a Sami Zatari a 20 year old child.
NUFF SAID!!! - November 18, 2009 at 4:24 PM
- David Wood said...
We know you're a Muslim pretending to be a Christian. If you want to practice Taqiyya, do it somewhere else (or at least make it more difficult to investigate your claims about your beliefs). - November 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM
- mkvine said...
Dr. White debates Sami Zaatari, so what? If a 20 year old Muslim kid is the best that Islam has to offer, then what does that say about Islamic apologetics?.... Nadir Ahmed, the self proclaimed "best Muslim apologist in the world" got owned by Dr. White. Again, if that's the best Islam has to offer, then what does that say about Islam?
Let's see what you have to say about Zakir Naik, "So since Zakir Naik doesn't have depth in apologetics that Shabir has why would James want to debate him?" hmm... so much for the "Doctor of Dawah." So the problem is not Dr. White, the problem is your OWN Muslim apologists. Maybe they should step up their game? You mentioned NON muslim "apologists" such as "Ergum Caner" and "Bob Ross" but what do they have to do with Islam? Also, I did follow your advice and googled "Bob Ross" and all that came up was some white guy with an Afro who paints for a career... Maybe I missed it, give me a link.
Shabir Ally is one of the only Muslim Apologists that I have respect for. He does try to have an engaging dialogue, unlike most of the other Muslim apologists. However, I have to disagree with you on his debate with Dr. White because if Shabir Ally would apply the same standards that he uses to judge the bible, then those same standards can be used to turn around and refute the Qur'an. Oh, I almost forgot, don't even mention Osama Abdullah LOL. - November 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM
- ben malik said...
Is grand-verbal-diarrhea high or something? Dr. White ate up Shabir and Shabir didn't know what hit him. You need to stop smoking that black rock that Muhammad loved to lick.
- November 18, 2009 at 6:39 PM
- leviMichealathan said...
deedat and naik claimed that if we could show them where Jesus said: "I am God; worship Me", they will become Christians. LOL.
i thought that there's no historical evidence for the death and resurection of Jesus (according to islam)
naik, r u telling us that u r willing to believe sumthing that has not evidence for it? but then again, u r a muslim. lol
r u also telling us that the Bible will no longer be corrupted because these words appear in it?
r u also telling us that muhammad is not in the Bible if these words appear in it?
etc, etc, etc...
so, here's ur postition:
1. there's no historical evidence for the death and resurection of Jesus
2. if Jesus said: "I am God; worship Me" i will believe in the death and resurection of Jesus
here's the christian position:
1. there's very good historical evidence to believe in the death and resurection of Jesus
2. the death and resurection of Jesus is the ultimate proof of Jesus' Deity because actions (the resurrection) speak louder than words
although there's plenty of statements in the Gospels to prove that Jesus claimed Diety, they mean nothing without the resurrection! - November 18, 2009 at 7:02 PM
james is great. i liked the part when he explained the prophesy abt shabir ally in the old testament. LOL
- November 18, 2009 at 7:47 PM
- Nakdimon said...
Zakir Naik makes a bunch of claims about Mo being in the Bible. I wish that Muslims would give Deuteronomy 18:18 up for goodness' sake. Zakir Naik mentions:
Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
Dr Naik points us to verse 18 but the entire thing begins at verse 14:
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die." 17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.
Moses tells the people that those whom live in the land that God has given them listen to people who practice sorcery and divination and God forbids the Israelites to practice those things. Instead of doing that, God will raise among them prophets who will tell them the councils of God. In short: Don't listen to sorcerers, listen to the prophets that God will raise up. Where will those prophets come from? That we find in verse 15:
נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי, יָקִים לְךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ:
אֵלָיו, תִּשְׁמָעוּן
A prophet FROM YOUR MIDST, from your brothers, like me, will YHWH your God raise for you, to him you will listen. (Literal word-for-word translation)
According to this verse the prophet would come from the midst of the children of Israel. Not from outside of the nation of Israel. Deuteronomy 18 verse 18 is simply a repetition of verse 15. So if verse 15 speaks of an Israeli prophet then verse 18 speaks of the same Israeli prophet. Therefore to apply this prophecy to an Arab "prophet" is completely incorrect and contrary to the prophecy.
I will publish an article dismantling the so-called prophecies from the original Hebrew text that Zakir Naik claimed are about Mo in the Bible.
Nakdimon - November 19, 2009 at 3:53 AM
- Fernando said...
thegrandverbalizer19 said: «The times I did see James try to defend the integrity of the scriptures against Shabir Ally and Bart Ehrman epic fail!»...
Really? eben Shabir Allie recognized thate James White presented a better case than him... And whate aboutte Ehrman? He eben had to writte an apology to his editor explaining why he did not had placed some off the information doctor White presented to him...
how aboutt being mentally intoxicated?
I'm sure Doctor White woulde be more than whilling to debate Zakir Futil Naik everytime everywhere... can you say the same about this latte? YOU KNOW YOU CAN?T: he runs away from true Christian debates as Satan runs away from the Cross...
dear thegrandverbalizer19... be a man and show us all your courage in leaving islam, thate false religioin thate saide thate «I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!'» (Ishaq 243) - November 19, 2009 at 5:53 AM
- Nora said...
thegrandverbalizer19 said:
"James is a calvanist and he believes that the gospel message is only for the elect although I was impressed by his recent debate in Australlia where I said to myself 'omg' is James actually evangelizing? "
Good grief, how on earth do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you give no evidence of even understanding of the beliefs of the person you are criticizing? - November 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM
- IslamSINS said...
grandverbalizer (what a misnomer!) - Might you carry your own pompous self to a podium for a debate? It might be great fun, worthy of popcorn and Coke, to hear you try using your multi-sylable gobbledygook to show your ummah how it should be done. Oh wait! Naik fancies himself a bit of a grand verbalizer, also, so you'll need to look elsewhere to distinguish yourself.
Give a Muslim a computer, and they all think they're grand speakers. Of course, they also think "allah" is the same as the God of the Bible, ignoring - or completely ignorant about - the ocean of discrepancies. Allah can't even agree with himself, so 4.82 is a challenge that should never have been issued. We've "pondered" the Koran and found it not only filled with many discrepancies, but saturated with lunacy.
Muhammad was schizophrenic so his "god" is schizophrenic. This imposes schizophrenia on every Muslim, without exception.
YHWH calls His children to be holy because he is holy. Allah calls his slaves to be imbeciles because, . . . well, he is an imbecile.
GV, terminally consigned to the pit for eternity, carried away by his Islamic Tourette's Syndrome.
Repent, GV, and find the brain given you by your creator, Christ, the God who will also judge you in His great and terrible day. - November 19, 2009 at 12:09 PM
- mkvine said...
I forgot to mention, it's beyond me why Muslims like to quote Deuteronomy 18:18 as support for Muhammad. This is the same chapter, which a few verses later says "But if a prophet presumes to speak in my name an oracle that I have not commanded him to speak, or speaks in the name of OTHER gods, he shall die" (v.20). Didn't Muhammad speak in the name of OTHER gods (i.e Allat, Al'Uzza and Manat)? Isn't this the same Muhammad which spoke an oracle (surah) from SATAN and NOT from God? It seems to me that the same verse that Muslims like to quote for Muhammad, only turns around to refute them! According to v.20 Muhammad would be a false prophet, as is evident from the "Satanic Verses." I'm sure Dr. Wood would agree that the Satanic verses is a historical fact.
- November 19, 2009 at 3:57 PM
- Anthony Rogers said...
It looks to me like the Grandverbalizer may be a grand waste of time - a one-hitter-quitter (just like the one-time Muslim apologist Yahya Snow). I don't think he came in here to interact with anyone on anything; he likely just wanted to say something, anything, so that he could be heard.
Now that he got to see his picture next to his first "published" comments here at Answering Muslims, he will quite probably slink back to the Muslim underground. I highly doubt that he wants to crawl around in the light for very long. That's my prediction, but I'll happily be proved wrong if he wants to actually try and engage the issues that are brought up here. - November 19, 2009 at 5:44 PM
- leviMichealathan said...
thegrandverbalizer19, u r very smart and intelligent! allah has blessed u with incredible insight and wisdom...
Christianity is no-good compared to islam; can u believe that Christians actually follow the evidence? i mean, whatever happened to blind faith? what a bunch of fools Christians are!
how about taking over osama's prestigious position?
i'm sure u will do a good job; perhaps even better; it will be like osama is still here with us!
All the Christians on this board r so relieved bcos they do not have to engage with osama anymore; he really pulverised our arguments using humour, witt and charm; well...mostly humour...
So will u take the job?
please say yes. please! - November 19, 2009 at 6:44 PM
- Traeh said...
James White says interesting things about statements in the Bible where Jesus seems to distinguish himself from God and speak of God as greater. James also points out statements where Jesus identifies himself with God in some sense: "I and the Father are one."
To my mind, that is the paradox of transcendence and immanence. On the one hand, God is absolutely Other. On the other hand, God is absolutely within. One thing that distinguishes Christianity is that it maintains that intense polarity or opposition between transcendance and immanence, accepts both poles as real, and finds the middle term or unity of the poles in the Holy Spirit. The result is a perception of the Trinity. No other religion, so far as I'm aware, maintains that polar unity to the same degree. All other religions favor one or the other pole. Most have favored immanence.
Prior to Judaism, had God ever been perceived as so totally Other to humanity and the cosmos? Prior to Judaism, the distinction could be lost between human and divine, as in the phenomenon of God-kings, and Gurus who claim to be God, but in no way distinguish themselves from God.
Jesus did both: he distinguished himself from God and did so with the consciousness of God's utter transcendence, a consciousness that apparently only the ancient Jews, among the peoples of the earth, had so fully achieved. And after that having been to some extent achieved, to again become one with God would from then on have a completely new meaning, a meaning that incorporates the free individual in a consciousness of a unique and unrepeatable history. No more eternal returns (cf. Eliade).
In this light, perhaps Jesus was the linchpin, the pivot, of all earthly and cosmic evolution.
The further back one goes in history, the closer human beings seem to have felt to the gods and to God, the more human beings felt and perceived spirits and non-physical powers in everything, in every spring, in every animal, in every bush. Those spirits were not projected as a kind of childish scientific explanation of nature. Those spirits were experienced.
But over time, that awareness was gradually lost. Consciousness evolved and changed. Human beings, who had once had little sense of individual self, and were somewhat like babies in the womb of the gods and a more spiritual natural world, more and more were ejected from or fell, with nature, out of that divine presence, by stages, and more and more were thrown back upon themselves, each toward the discovery of his own individuality.
During the historical stage prior to that of the ancient Greeks, most peoples had lived in images, rather than in thought. But with the Greeks, image faded into thought. It was thought still imbued with spiritual life, but it became progressively dryer and emptier as the centuries passed.
The Greeks and Romans in effect carved a sort of hole, with their thinking, into the plenum of existence. They created an empty space within the human being, where once the voices of gods had impelled men and left them unfree. But the emptiness that was coming, with all its darkness and difficulties, was something that could not compel. Nothingness, unlike the voice of a god, does not compel one. That is the nature of thought, at least of ordinary thought.
And Jesus Christ, the divine being, who had been approaching the earthly realm from out of the spirit, perhaps for eons, by many stages, then incarnated, at the low point of human evolution, when human beings would have descended into an abyss through their increasingly complete detachment from the spiritual worlds. Jesus Christ brought the divine ego into humanity, into the hole that had been carved out by thinking. From that point, it has been the task of humanity to incorporate that divine ego, that divine individuality or higher self, as the guide to all future evolution.
I find all that a plausible paradigm. I don't know if it's all entirely true, but it seems to me the best paradigm, when one looks into it enough. - November 19, 2009 at 8:22 PM
- Alcaff said...
I'm an Indonesian Christian. I know that some of my christian brothers here meant the god of Islam when speaking of "Allah". However, I must confess that I cringe a little whenever someone that "Allah" is not the true God, or is the devil, etc.
We Indonesians always have used the word "Allah" as referring to God and all our Indonesian bibles use the word "Allah" as well since the very beginning - November 20, 2009 at 12:06 AM
- Nakdimon said...
We Indonesians always have used the word "Allah" as referring to God and all our Indonesian bibles use the word "Allah" as well since the very beginning.
Selamat Alcaff, I can imagine that you are uncomfortable about us making that link with Allah of the Quran. My father-in-law is Indonesian (Surabaya - in fact he is there right now). I also know that the Indonesian Bibles are called "al-Kitab", my father-in-law has one. Indonesia obviously has had Arabic influences in the transmission of the Indonesian translation process. But I understand that when Arabic and Indonesian Christians speak about "Allah" they do not refer to the god of the Quran. And that is too bad, because it gives Muslims the impression that we believe in the same god as they do, which is NOT the case. Allah of the Quran has virtually all the traits of Satan and therefore we can't help but to make that link. He is Satanic. Maybe we can be more specific so not to create confusion on what we mean.
Would it help if we said "Allah of the Quran is not God" or "Allah of the Quran is Satan"?
Btw I dont understand where the Arabic influence comes from. Why was there chosen to follow the Arabic (obviously Islamic) naming for God?
God Bless,
Nakdimon - November 20, 2009 at 3:19 AM
- Fernando said...
Hi Brother Alcaff...
Saya harap Anda baik...
As you see I still remember your (my antient) language...
I understand clearly your point... Just somme points I reallized during mie path back to Christianity...
1) the arabic word for the generic "God" is, without any doubte, "ilah", as we can reallize from pre-islamic texts...
2) "allah" is the name off the (false) muslim "god" or "ilah"...
3) the reason Christians began to use the noumn "allah" to reffear to "God" in islamic countries was an inculturation (adopting other one culture) by aculturation (denying oneself culture)... somtehing likke when in Rome behabe likke romans... thats the reason the Bibles in muslims countries call "God" bie "allah"...
Semoga Tuhan memberkati Anda dan membantu keluarga Anda... - November 20, 2009 at 3:52 AM
- Fernando said...
Hi Ed...
are you a Christian? or someone in the search off the truth?
in any case I dearly liked your comment... profound and beautifull..
yes... I also believe thate everything is created in Jesus (Col 1:17)... He's not, in his absolute transcendency, exoghenous to the creation...
the biggest transcendency is, as a matter of fact, the inmanece...
a god like allah thate, for the sake off the (mearly human concept) transcendency, cannot intercat withe his creation is not transcendent whatesoever...
The Word off God was always present to His creation and interacting to it since the beggining off the Universe... humanity begann to be more and more transparent to His presence and in the "final days" (Hb 1:2), when that transparence reached its spiritual peak, He incarnated...
Glad to see you thinking aboute this... may God bless you and your familie...
Fernando - November 20, 2009 at 4:03 AM
- sam said...
y do muslims then say THERES NO GOD BUT ALLAH.
if allah is God then whos God is it? the muslims or the worlds?
Whos is Allah?
which bible do u use to describe this Allah? r u sure ur not reading the quran?
my friend if u read and write english then i suggest u read the NT bible the true gospel of Jesus. - November 20, 2009 at 10:49 AM
- Alcaff said...
Hello Nakdimon
"Would it help if we said "Allah of the Quran is not God" or "Allah of the Quran is Satan"?"
Yes that would certainly help. I too don't believe that we worship the same god as the muslims (alhough many christians in Indonesia do believe so). It's just that, personally, I feel very uncomfortable joining in a discussion with another christian brother when he use the word "Allah" as a false god (even though I do understand that he refers the word to the muslim god)
"Btw I dont understand where the Arabic influence comes from. Why was there chosen to follow the Arabic (obviously Islamic) naming for God?"
We have a lot of words in our vocabulary that originated from other languanges such as sanskrit, dutch, english and arabic. It just so happened that we use the arabic languange of "Allah" for God, like many other religious terms that we use. We do have another term that we use in the bible which is TUHAN (which means LORD). - November 20, 2009 at 2:30 PM
- Alcaff said...
Hello Nakdimon
"Would it help if we said "Allah of the Quran is not God" or "Allah of the Quran is Satan"?"
Yes that would certainly help. I too don't believe that we worship the same god as the muslims (alhough many christians in Indonesia do believe so). It's just that, personally, I feel very uncomfortable joining in a discussion with another christian brother when he use the word "Allah" as a false god (even though I do understand that he refers the word to the muslim god)
"Btw I dont understand where the Arabic influence comes from. Why was there chosen to follow the Arabic (obviously Islamic) naming for God?"
We have a lot of words in our vocabulary that originated from other languanges such as sanskrit, dutch, english and arabic. It just so happened that we use the arabic languange of "Allah" for God, like many other religious terms that we use. We do have another term that we use in the bible which is TUHAN (which means LORD). - November 20, 2009 at 2:31 PM
- Alcaff said...
"Hi Brother Alcaff...
Saya harap Anda baik.."
Hi Fernando
Terima kasih dan salam kenal
"I understand clearly your point... Just somme points I reallized during mie path back to Christianity...
1) the arabic word for the generic "God" is, without any doubte, "ilah", as we can reallize from pre-islamic texts...
2) "allah" is the name off the (false) muslim "god" or "ilah"...
3) the reason Christians began to use the noumn "allah" to reffear to "God" in islamic countries was an inculturation (adopting other one culture) by aculturation (denying oneself culture)... somtehing likke when in Rome behabe likke romans... thats the reason the Bibles in muslims countries call "God" bie "allah"..."
Yes that might be true Fernando. However, we just don't have any other word to replace "Allah" with in Indonesian. For me, Allah is the triune God. And when I pray and worship Him, I use that word just like millions of christians in Indonesian do.
"Semoga Tuhan memberkati Anda dan membantu keluarga Anda..."
Thank you for your kind words, may God bless you and your family too - November 20, 2009 at 2:46 PM
- Alcaff said...
y do muslims then say THERES NO GOD BUT ALLAH.
if allah is God then whos God is it? the muslims or the worlds?
Whos is Allah?"
Hi Simon
For us Indonesians, Allah is the generic term for God. We don't have any other substitute for the term "God" in our language. Of course some muslims want to claim that Allah is exclusively their term, but we Indonesians (the majority anyway) usually see the phrase "THERES NO GOD BUT ALLAH" as to mean that there are no other god(s) but GOD. So we would agree with the muslims when they say that, because the way we see it, there is only one true God (monotheism)
"which bible do u use to describe this Allah? r u sure ur not reading the quran??
Of course I'm sure. You can google any Indonesian bible on the web or buy any Indonesian bible and see for yourself. - November 20, 2009 at 2:56 PM
- Alcaff said...
Here is the article from the Indonesian Bible Society regarding the use of Allah in our bible:
Why are the terms "Allah" and "TUHAN" used in our Bible?
The use of the term "Allah" is still being called into question by some users of the Bible published by The Indonesian Bible Society (Lembaga Alkitab Indonesia--LAI). This problem has surfaced because there are some groups who refuse to use the term "Allah" and want to revive the use of the name Yahweh or Yahwe. As a matter of fact, in the Hebrew text the name Yahweh or Yahwe is writen with just four consonants (YOD-HE-WAW-HE, "YHWH") without any vowels. But there are those who insist that these four letters must be pronounced/expressed. They believe that the Indonesian Bible Society translation is deviant and even leads the Christian public astray here in Indonesia. Is it possible that the Indonesian Bible Society, which has been entrusted by the churches with the task of translating the Bible, has made such a basic mistake? Where in fact does the problem lie? The following explanation is meant to set forth briefly the considerations that underlie the Indonesian Bible Society's policy with regard to this issue.
Why does the Indonesian Bible Society use the term "Allah"?
In the TB version (so-called "New Translation") of the Bible (1974), which is being used widely throughout the archepelago by both Catholics and Protestants, the term "Allah" is being used as the equivalent of 'ELOHIM, 'ELOAH and 'EL in the Hebrew Bible.
* Gen 1:1 "Pada mulanya Allah ('ELOHIM) menciptakan langit dan bumi."
* Deut. 32:17 "Mereka mempersembahkan kurban kepada roh-roh jahat yang bukan Allah ('ELOAH).
* Ps 22:1 (v.2 in TB) "Allahku (EL), Allahku, mengapa Engkau meninggalkan aku?"
From the linguistic perspective, one cannot deny that the terms 'ELOHIM, 'ELOAH dan 'EL are connected with the root 'L, the god who was worshipped in the ancient Semitic world. EL, ILU or ILAH are related general forms that were used to refer to the highest god. The ancient Israelites apparently used the term that was used by the nations around them. Does this mean that they were followers of polytheism? Of course not! The ancient Israelite people had a new understanding of these words. The one they worshipped was the one and only Creator of heaven and earth. This very same process is still going on whenever the Word of the Lord reaches various tribes and cultures all over the world.
Some groups who reject the term "Allah", in fact, are of the opinion that the term "Allah" should not be found at all in the Bible used by Christians. Some give the reason that "Allah" is the name of the Lord worshipped by Muslims. There are also those who connect the term with the gods of the Arab people. If this position were correct, then certainly 'EL, 'ELOAH and also 'ELOHIM would have to be removed from the Hebrew Bible! In addition, some inscriptions that were found in the sixth century show that the word "Allah" was used by Orthodox Christians before the birth of Islam. Up to the present time, Christians in countries such as Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, Jordan and Lebanon still use the term "Allah" in their Bibles. So the word "Allah" cannot be claimed to be the property of only one religion. - November 20, 2009 at 3:03 PM
- Alcaff said...
The Indonesian Bible Society's policy for translating 'ELOHIM, 'ELOAH dan 'EL is not a new policy at all. The first translation of the Bible, which was done into Greek around the 3rd Century B.C. is the oldest example that we have. The translation which is known by the name of "Septuagint" was done in Alexandria, Egypt and intended for Jewish people who spoke Greek. In Genesis 1:1, for example, the Septuagint uses the term THEOS which normally was used for Greek gods. Evidently, the New Testament also uses the same word as in the following example: "Terpujilah Allah (THEOS), Bapa Tuhan kita Yesus Kristus" (2 Cor 1:3). Certainly THEOS in this quote was not understood as involving polytheistic worship.
The term "Allah" in the history of Bible translation in the archipelago
Before the "TB"(New Translation) was published by the Indonesian Bible Society in 1974, there had already been several Bibles in the Malay language which was the precursor of the Indonesian language. The Gospel of Matthew translated by A. C. Ruyl (1629) was the first attempt at Bible translation in the archipelago. Interestingly, in this very first Malay translation, the term "Allah" was already being used as in the following example: "maka angkou memerin'ja nama Emanuel artin'ja Allahu (THEOS) ſerta ſegala kita." (Mat 1:23) The translations that followed also retained the term "Allah", among these were:
* Translation of Genesis by D. Brouwerius (1662): "Lagi trang itou Alla ſouda bernamma ſeang" (Gen 1:5)
* M. Leijdecker's translation (1733): "Pada mulanja dedjadikanlah Allah akan ſwarga dan dunja" (Gen 1:1)
* H.C. Klinkert's translation (1879): "Bahwa-sanja Allah djoega salamatkoe" (Isaiah 12:2).
* W.A. Bode's translation (1938): "Maka pada awal pertama adalah Firman, dan Firman itu bersama-sama dengan Allah" (John 1:1).
As is evident from the examples above, the term "Allah", which only recently has been called into question by a portion of the Christian community, has already been in use for hundreds of years in translations of the Bible which have been circulating throughout the archipelago. In short, when they continued to use the term "Allah", the team of translators from the Indonesian Bible Society (LAI) considered the weight of history as well as the process of translating cross-culturally which has already been evident in the Bible itself.
What is the basis for the Indonesian Bible's Society's policy with regard to the problem of "YHWH"?
Admittedly, the orgin of the name YHWH is not an easy one to trace. From a linguistic point of view, YHWH is often linked with the word HAYAH 'be, become', as is expressed in Exodus 3:14: "Firman Allah ('ELOHIM) kepada Musa: 'AKU ADALAH AKU.' ('EHYEH 'ASHER 'EHYEH). Lagi firman-Nya: 'Beginilah kaukatakan kepada orang Israel itu: AKULAH AKU ('EHYEH) telah mengutus aku kepadamu.'" The exact meaning of this expression is not known anymore, but some understand it to refer to the Lord's presence who always exist in the middle of His people. - November 20, 2009 at 3:04 PM
- Alcaff said...
On what basis does the Indonesian Bible Society use "TUHAN" (LORD) (all in capital letters) as an equivalent for YHWH? To answer this question, we need to pay attention to the history of the Jewish community after the period of captivity when they were very wary of expressing the holy name YHWH directly because out of a feeling of deep reverence. In addition, the exact pronunciation of YHWH is/was no longer known. Each time that the word YHWH was encountered in the Hebrew Bible, they would say, 'ADONAY which means 'Tuhan' ('Lord'). This pronunciation tradition was also clearly evident in the Septuagint which uses the word KYRIOS ('Tuhan' "Lord") for YHWH, as in the following example: "KYRIOS menggembala¬kan aku, dan aku tidak kekurangan apa pun" (Ps. 23:1).
Apparently, Jesus and the apostles followed the same tradition! For example, in the temptation in the wilderness, Yesus answers the temptations of the Devil by quoting from Deuteronomy 6:16: "Ada pula tertulis: Janganlah engkau mencobai Tuhan (KYRIOS), Allahmu" (Mat 4:7) In this quote the name YHWH is not used but rather KYRIOS (LORD). If the name YHWH has to be written as in the Hebrew text why didn't the writer of the Gospel of Matthew retain the original name? Similarly, in the letters of the apostle Paul, the name YHWH is never used. For example in Romans 10:13, Paul quotes Joel 2:32: "Barangsiapa yang berseru kepada nama Tuhan (KYRIOS) akan diselamatkan". It is evident that the word that is used here is KYRIOS (LORD) not YHWH.
Is it possible that Jesus and the apostles are following a tradition that is wrong? Of course not! On the contrary, the writers of the New Testament were following the tradition of the Jewish people who said 'ADONAY ('TUHAN') each time they encountered the name YHWH. Because the New Testament was written in Greek, the word KYRIOS was used as the equivalent of 'ADONAY which reflected the tradition for the pronunciation of YHWH.
In short, the Indonesian Bible Society is following the example of Jesus and the earliest Christians with regard to the pronunciation of YHWH. In the TB ('New Translation') version of the Bible, the Indonesian Bible Society's term "TUHAN" is written with all capital letters as an equivalent of 'ADONAY which reminds us of that pronunciation tradition. This spelling, in fact, intentionally differentiates between "Tuhan" ("Lord") (with only the first letter being capitalized) which is the equivalent of the word 'ADONAY when it does not represent YHWH. Note the following example: "Sion berkata: 'TUHAN (YHWH) telah mening¬gal¬kan aku dan Tuhanku ('ADONAY) telah melupakan aku.'" (Yes 49:14). This distinction, of course, is not relevant for the New Testament, which does not retain the spelling YHWH.
Various modern translations follow the same tradition, for example in English: "the LORD" (New Jewish Publication Society Version; New Revised Standard Version, New International Version, New King James Version, Today's English Version); German: "der HERR" (Einheits¬übersetzung; the Bible according to the translation of Martin Luther); Dutch: "de HEER" (Nieuwe Bijbelvertaling); French: "le SEIGNEUR" (Traduction Oecumé¬ni¬que de la Bible). - November 20, 2009 at 3:05 PM
- Alcaff said...
The policy of the Indonesian Bible Society with regard to the divine names has not been made lightly or simplistically. Various aspects have been thoroughly considered, among others:
* The original texts (Hebrew and Aramaic for the Old Testament; Greek for the New Testament) and their interpretations
* The traditions of the Lord's people in the Old and New Testaments.
* The history of the use of the divine names in the translation of the Bible in a variety of languages and cultures from age to age.
* The policy that teams of Bible translators have used around the world, especially those associated with the United Bible Societies.
There has been agreement among churches, both Catholic and Protestant who have been using the Bible published by the Indonesian Bible Society up until the present time. For example, as the translation of the TB version of the Bible by the Indonesian Bible Society was being finalized in 1968, a consultation was held in Cipayung with leaders and representatives of churches from a variety of denominations. At this consultation, among other things, it was agreed that "Allah" would continue to be used as in the previous translations.
The Indonesian Bible Society has never operated under the pretense that their translations were perfect and would never need to be improved. However, considering the lengthy and painstaking process which was followed in order to publish the Alkitab (Indonesian Bible), the demands of some groups who would like to remove or restore certain names, cannot be met without deliberation. In every decision-making process related to the translation of the Bible, various factors have to be carefully considered with regard to the original texts, interpretations, translation traditions as well as their impact on the fellowship and witness of the Lord's people as a whole, especially in our own country.
Finally, fully conscious of our human limitations in God's presence, we offer to Him our praise and thanksgiving who has expressed his revealed Word to train people in righteousness and equip His people for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17). He is the one who has prepared people to incarnate the Word of His truth in a variety of languages and cultures from age to age. Everything is from Him and through Him and to Him. To Him be the glory forever and ever.
Jakarta, May 2009
Indonesian Bible Society
http://www.alkitab.or.id/content/view/100/2/lang,en/ - November 20, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Hi Alcaff,
Saya dari Indonesia dan sekarang tinggal di luar negeri. (I am from Indonesia and now am living overseas).
When I was back in Indonesia I kept talking to people that the attributes of Christian God (Christian Allah) are totally opposite to the one of Muslims'.
Since it is a total opposite to name it 180 degree opposite direction indicates Islamic God (Allah) is no more than satan.
Thus, we may use the same word "Allah" however we refer to different Being. One with its Supreme Quality in Trinity and the other the satanic quality.
I guess the intrinsic meaning in a context defines the word not the other way round.
Subsequently, the confusion should be resolved easily by its vast distinction.
Again, as Dr James White reiterated many many many many times in his debates that "CONTEXT" matters.
Semoga Allah Tritunggal Kristen memberkati anda.
May Christian Triune God bless you. - November 20, 2009 at 7:14 PM
- Adam said...
Peace of Lord Jesus Christ be with you Gem and Alcaff.
Regarding the name of God.
In my mother tongue We call God as Dev(Dave) or Deva. For Jesus we call Jezu and in other Indian Languages Yeshu, Yeshua, Yesu
In Hindi or Sanskrit and many North Indian Languages (Indo-European) We Call God as
Dev (DIO in Latin)
Param Ishwar
In Tamil and other South Indian Language they call God
In Urdu and in Kashmiri We call God
Many Muslim or almost all Muslim of the Indian Subcontinent (Indo-Pak) Called Khuda.
But these days Saudi funded Wahabbi scums are forcing people to use ALLAH instead of Khuda. As They claim ALLAH is a right term to call their God.
As I know Just like Afghanistan and Hindia
(India, Bharat, Hindustan, Huda, Hind) Hindunesia (Indonesia) was also a Hindu country. Why dont you search for the ancient name or generic name for God.
Its better Not to use ALLAH as the Kaaba worshippers are alredy forcing their people to use ALLAH.
Our Rural Indian pronounce Indonesia as Hindunesia.
Dear Gem,
Regrding debating Kaaba Worshippers
I think its our duty to Expose the Kaaba and the false prophet. But keeping in mind to make apologetics as a tool to heal and win than a sword
About this man Zakir Naik
He is running away to debate Christian Apologists and Hindu scholors from Arya Samaj (Arya Samaj a Hindu sect which against statue worships just like Bible christians)
Zakir fool his worshipers
using Protestant literature against Catholics
Jehovah Witness Literature against Christians
Arya Samaj literature against All Hindus.
Arya Samaj has challenged Zakir regrding Zakir claims of muhamMAD in the vedas the Kalki Avatar.
The Shivaism sect of Hinduism claims Kaaba was one a Hindu place of worship. They are proving proof and logic.
Many India muslim (poorly educated) are even aware of islam. Hence men like zakir rule their mind. - November 21, 2009 at 3:10 AM
- Brianman said...
Is this the best James White can do? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Oh my God, please.
James white always says "could any other prophet say this? and How can Jesus not be a diety?" this is just as bad as Zakir Naik speed reading.
I actually wanted to hear stronger arguments from James White that I can work on.
Any Trinitarian Christians, please respond to this:
And please affirm if they are correct or not.
Thanks a lot guys. - November 21, 2009 at 7:40 AM
- Fernando said...
1) you asked: «Is this the best James White can do?»... no it's not... butt to bee hable to speak to those who are on the same level off Zakir Naik one must nott be over technical... it woulde be like someone speaking about Trignometry to a 6 years old... have you read any off James White books? perhaps itt coulde you good... butt I doubt: you could nott eben present an argumentation on why Whites job was not good: you just played the old clown tactic...
2) about your links...
a) trinitarian Christians is a tautology... just like Christian monotheíst...
b) no, they are wrong... clearly wrong... they don't eben know the basic greek gramatic tahte explains teh difference between "noun" and "predicate noun"... - November 21, 2009 at 2:51 PM
- ICA-Kiev said...
It's amazing how almost all muslims who ask about Christianity ask the very same format of questions such as: Where did Jesus say He's God, worship me!
Well, first of all, even if Jesus claimed to be God with no ambiguity, do you still need to hear him add: "Worship me"? of course, no, because if he really would say it in that format people would just fall on their knees in worship (IF they believed him for merely saying it). So, what really remains of the question is: Did Jesus claim to be God? Yes he did, and specifically he said it to "Muslims":
First, A question to the muslim: If Jesus used one of God's 99 names that you have wouldn't that make him saying he IS God?
One of God's 99 names in Islam is:
Al-Haqq (الحق), which means the Truth .. well check this out:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Did any one notice that?
Today, many of the arab speaking muslim scholars would say: "Al-Haqq said" when they want to quote the Quran. And here we have Jesus saying: I am the WAY, the TRUTH (Al-Haqq), and "the Life" ..
Won't you worship him then? - November 21, 2009 at 8:00 PM
- Fifth Monarchy Man said...
I would be happy to discuss John 1 with you but right now I'm not sure what good it would do.
You have already said you reject the Gospels along with the rest of the NT because they were written after Paul.
You also have admitted that in the past you have lied here about you believe.
As it is you seem to be not really interested in the truth but instead only interested in confirming your own opinions.This sort of thing is not new. Jesus often delt with people who pretended to be seekers but were not.
It is possible I am wrong but you have given no evidence to that effect yet.
So before we can proceed you need answer a few questions
1) By what standard do you judge the truth of a proposition
2) If it were shown that the Bible taught something contrary to what you believe would you reject your belief or reject the Bible?
3)If the Bible taught something about the nature of God that was difficult to understand or except would you trust the Bible or would you instead assume an error?
4)If there is a question to which you are unqualified to judge (Greek grammar or syntax for example) will you commit to educating yourself from scholarly sources with no ax to grind before you decide.
How you answer these questions will go a long way in determining the kind of response you get from me.
I don't mean to be harsh but untill you are realy willing to be serious you will only be wasteing your and my time.
Peace - November 22, 2009 at 1:20 AM
- eagle said...
zakir naik is such a liar and deciever because his Allah is the best deciever according to Quran and his prophet Muhammad allowed Muslims to lie in three cases on of them is in the war ind this is kind of war and the war is deception . Islam is from Satan and Muhammad was driven by Satan and the best proof to that as whan Muhammad spoke the Satanic Verses
- January 24, 2010 at 5:40 PM
- pure said...
Difference between Muslims and Christians and their faiths is this:
1)Christians believe and respect all the prophets from the beginning and the books they wrote with the inspiration of God and we protected them and we included all of them in our bible and answer any allegations towards them.
-> Muslims speak about all the previous prophets as though they have respect and they believe God sent books to them,but they undoubtely believe that All the books are corrupted except Quran and attack all the books of the previous prophets.
2)Christians have to defend all the previous prophets books (40+ prophets),believing that God is trustworthy and he is allpowerfull and he is just and not partial as he looks towards all the prophets equally and believe that he has guarded all.So we are defending a book written 4000yrs before i.e; Torah.
->Muslims have to defend only the book of 1 prophet Muhammad for any allegations,because according to them all the previous prophets are fools as Allah thought it not to preserve all of them.Only Muhammad is the Rocker.
So more burden on christians rather than muslims as we doesnt agree that God's word is corrupted and we answer any allegations against all the prophets which God previously sent,which includes 66 books.
is this the Character of God that he didnt Guard any of the previously sent books,(1024 prophets and 343 messangers).
Defntly i believe God's character is not of this Type,and yahweh is trustWorthy.
So with the above criteria Sura Al-ikhlas suits yahweh but Not Allah.isnt not? - January 18, 2012 at 1:43 AM
- Iwona said...
I Like your way of USELESS Attack on Islam and on DR ZAKIR NAIK.
James White and David Wood if you people thinks we muslim and Dr Zakir Naik are wrong then Please come and Debat..
Come and prove your point..
Your work on this website is Rubbish , so come and prove your point not like one way traffic..
http://www.irf.net - May 2, 2012 at 5:04 AM
- Iwona said...
No need of lectures...
Think that if Jesus is God , then for God is it very difficult to say that " Jesus " i am God worship me, where he did so many mircle to prove about himself that he is true Phrophet of God, so for Jesus that was very difficult that i am God..
Please stop saying useless talk and come and have a dabeat and prove all the muslim that Jesus is god and all the muslim are worng.Quran is not words book..
Dr. Zakir Naik
President Islamic Research Foundation
Tel: +91 2223736875
Fax : +91 2223730689
http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_contact&view=category&catid=12&Itemid=28 - May 2, 2012 at 5:13 AM
- Unknown said...
I think Zakir Naik has used this "There is not a single unequivocal statement, not a single unambiguous statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ Himself says that, 'I am God. Worship Me,'" tactic a thousand times! I've seen many Christians ask him a question regarding Jesus Christ's divinity and this is answer that he always gives! Ask about Jesus from John, he will give you this answer. There was another Christian who asked about Jesus being the Alpha and the Omega from Revelation, and again he launched this boring and unconvincing argument. Ask him about Jesus being divine from Isaiah, and again this is what he will tell you. Ask him about Jesus' divinity and he will give you this same answer again and again. Ask him about Jesus' existence since all eternity and you'll get this answer. Go to YouTube and see how many have asked him and he repeats this statement over and over again. That's the only answer he has! Foolish guy!
- July 25, 2013 at 9:32 AM
- Unknown said...
I am an end time prophet. Jesus is coming soon as an asteroid. I am here to help spread the good news. https://www.facebook.com/linda.jacob.581187 Come and see.
- November 18, 2017 at 2:54 PM


text:
Columns Retired Columns & Blogs |
.........see you next year same as usual :D
"We had the same number of exhibitors in the main rooms but CANJAM added a few more this year. Approximately 431 companies were represented. I did a precursory look at the stats for attendance and we had the same amount of countries as last year30and 47 out of 50 states (no AL, RI, or WV). The countries represented were Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, India, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, and the UK. Unbelievable!!"
Indeed it was. RMAF 2012 was one of the most upbeat shows I have attended since my very first in 1969. My thanks to: Marjorie and her staff for their hospitality and help; Art Dudley, Stephen Mejias, and Jason Victor Serinus for writing up a storm on our website; to Roy Gregory for organizing the seminar room; and to all the exhibitors and attendees who made the Show such fun. See you all in 2013. Happy Listening!
.........see you next year same as usual :D

subset: commoncrawl


text:
The sights:
Homebaked hostess gift packages filled the kitchen countertops this week, some plates ready to be delivered to friends and neighbors and other baskets destined to travel to holiday dinners or parties. Pretty bows added some color to the more neutral golden browns and beiges of sweet and savory treats.
The smells:
Mmmmmm, the pungent scent of curry, cumin and garlic filled the kitchen while the spiced nuts roasted, and that aroma did linger on for a few hours afterward. Sweet citrus, vanilla and almond fragrances perfumed the air on morning after morning as an assortment of butter-rich cookies cooled on stacked racks. Cheese crisps, cheese straws and cheese wafers added their own distinctive tang as they took their turn in the oven.
The sounds:
There was such a noisy mix! Open with the whirring rumble of the Kitchen Aid mixer, add the intermittent chop, chop, chopping of knives mincing nuts and dried fruits, dial in some Christmas carols as background music , and add endless teasing and peals of laughter as I baked and RL nibbled on raw cookie dough and sampled more than a few finished treats.
The reality:
We're having w-a-y too much fun in the kitchen this month, especially with the taste-testing part. We'll run out of sweet and savory treats before Christmas if we don't stop snacking on the goodies. It's my fault that we need more savory items - who can resist sampling "just one more" cheese crisp? or cheese straw? or...
Cheddar Wafers
adapted from ChocolateandZucchini via SmittenKitchen via The Lee Bros. Southern Cookbook6 ounces extra-sharp cheddar (or any hard cheese), shredded and softened
4 tablespoons butter, diced and softened
3/4 cup AP flour
1/4 teaspoon sea salt, plus more for sprinkling
3-4 green onions, minced (or 3 slices bacon, cooked crispy and crumbled)
1/4 teaspoon smokey paprika (or cayenne), plus more for sprinkling
milk or cream, as needed to bring the dough together
- Use a stand mixer or food processor to make take all of the effort out of this recipe - or work a little harder and do it by hand with a pastry blender.
- Add the shredded, room temperature cheddar to the mixer bowl; Whirl it around to cream it.
- Add the diced, softened butter to the bowl and cream it with the cheese.
- Add the flour, salt, smokey paprika and minced onions (or bacon) to the bowl and mix well until the dough comes together into a ball. If it seems too dry and crumbly, add a tiny bit of milk or cream and keep mixing until a rough ball forms.
- Shape the dough into two logs and wrap each in plastic wrap or waxed paper. Chill for an hour or two until firm enough to easily slice. (ChocolateandZucchini suggested placing the dough in the freezer for 20 minutes instead.)
- Preheat the oven to 350°F. Line baking sheet pans with parchment paper or use a Silpat.
- Slice the chilled dough into 1/2 inch rounds and space an inch apart on the baking sheets. (Return any unused dough to the fridge between batches.)
- Sprinkle lightly with salt and smokey paprika and bake until golden and crisp, about 10 to 14 minutes. Let the cheese wafers rest on the baking sheet for a minute before transferring them to cooling racks.
Cheddar Wafer dough is stiff and not at all pretty. |
A chilled roll of dough cuts easily into uniform slices. |
Stacked racks of Cheddar Wafers are irresistible and invite immediate sampling. |


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text:
Muslim 'Moderation' = Patient Strategy
The following was originally posted on The English Defence League Extra, and is reprinted here with permission.
Muslim Groups/Individuals Within a Non-Muslim State
Much is made of how 'moderate' Muslims are in the UK and how many moderate Muslims there actually are.
Muslims constitute a minority in the UK. The population of the UK is around 60 million, about three million or more of whom are Muslims. (The estimates vary because accurate stats aren't really kept on religious groupings, only ethnic ones. One maximum has been estimated at as much as five million Muslims.)
Thus, would it make much sense for Muslims or Muslim groups to be radical, or militant, or overly vocal? As a minority, Muslims are well aware of the fact that they cannot demand too much or, indeed, be too Islamic. Overt Islamism or radicalism would quite simply backfire in a country in which Muslims are clearly a minority.
We must ask ourselves this: Exactly what would Muslims need to do to be immoderate, radical or militant (specifically by multiculturalist standards)?
Of course most Muslims can't introduce full or even extensive sharia law off their own backs. On the whole, they cannot pull their children out of non-Muslim schools. They cannot vocally support terrorism. They cannot admit to accepting violent jihad. And so on.
To do so would be out rightly self-destructive because few of these demands would be met at this moment of time. (But in a few years?) Thus, Muslims have no choice but to be moderate. Not because they believe in Islamic moderation, but because militancy, Islamism and fundamentalism would backfire.
Similarly, Muslims would find it very hard to get away with systemic kinds of Islamic of Muslim intolerance towards others or towards non-Muslim institutions, both legally and in terms of non-Muslim opinion. Thus, if blatant Islamic militancy or intolerance will definitely backfire for most Muslims, what would be the point of displaying such things?
In addition, Muslims as individuals may be militant and intolerant because, as individuals committing individual acts, they can get away with it.
The same is true of fringe groups like Muslim Against Crusades/Anjem Choidary and Hizb ut-Tahrir. These group do not want to be mainstream.
But what about the mainstream groups like Muslim Association of Britain (MAB) and Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)?
Why would they self-destructively become too demanding, too militant or, indeed, too Islamic?
This would ruin things for them. This would put a halt to their long-term plans for the slow but sure Islamification of the UK.
The same with Muslims as a whole, either as communities or as the sum of Muslim communities. They too know that complete Islamification would be impossible at this point of time. They know that excessive militancy would backfire.
So why not wait instead? Why not increase Muslim demographic power and then start being more demanding and militant? Again, to do so now would simply backfire.
Even in the case of Islamic zealots, there is only a limited amount a Muslim, or a Muslim group, can do in a non-Muslim society.
That is why terrorism is so often used.
There is nothing to stop a Muslim from becoming a suicide bomber or a terrorist. That is, he need not accommodate himself to British law and custom because, from the beginning, he is evidently outside that system.
But for Muslims as a whole, as well as Muslim groups, they must work within British law and custom. So by definition their militancy and their Islamism will be curtailed. Curtailed not through Muslim choice, but from facing the fact that Muslims live within non-Muslim states (with their non-Muslim laws and customs).
In the end, then, it is not the case of Muslims and Muslim groups being moderate, as some of them indeed are, but it is more the case that they must be moderate.
They must curtail their demands and their Islamic militancy. If they do not, the Muslims know that the cause that is the Islamification of Britain will take one or more steps back. Why would Muslims or Muslim groups want Islam to take one or more steps back? Thus they play the game. They say the right things and make the right gestures. Sometimes, of course, Muslims or Muslim groups are not that careful. They overstep the mark. They are too Islamic or too demanding. This is to be expected because the boundaries need to be continuously tested. Some Muslims will even be sacrificed by their fellow Muslims on the altar of the slow, but sure, Islamification of the United Kingdom.
Muslim 'moderation' is actually a sign of Muslim weakness vis-à-vis the larger non-Muslim secular state or society.
Numerical/demographic and political weakness is far from being the same as religious moderation or tolerance. Even a Muslim zealot will bide his time because he knows that any act of zealousness would evidently be self-destructive. And even a Muslim terrorist waits and prepares rather than selects the first target that enters his vision. Muslim periods of quiescence, or relative quiescence, and not, therefore, periods of Muslim or Islamic moderation.
Islamic/Muslim States within a Non-Muslim World
Imagine what would happen if Iran, the Sundan, Somalia, Hezbollah, Hamas, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. obtained nuclear weapons or had vastly increased military power.
Now it will be interesting to apply the same arguments to the larger scale. Instead of talking about the relative weakness of Muslims or Muslim groups vis-a-vis British society, let us think instead about the relative weakness of Muslim or Islamic states vis-a-vis the world.
Here again we can say that if all Muslims states were stronger, or even if just one were stronger, than the US or the West, what would happen? Think of Iran with nuclear weapons. Think of Saudi Arabia with a vastly increased military? Think indeed of the possible massively increased power of Hezbollah and Hamas relative to Israel.
I can quite confidently say that in one, or indeed in many, of these cases we would now be experiencing massive conflict and even Armageddon. Just think of how many Muslim purists or fanatics wouldn't think twice about using nuclear weapons against Israel.
But Israel would only be the beginning. After Israel it would be the United States. Then Britain. And then Europe as a whole.
Now let's move back to the small scale and imagine British Muslims or Islamic groups having much-increased power, both demographically and politically.
Even with twice as much power, if such things can be quantified at all, this country would be radically transformed. So much so that it would be largely unrecognisable. It would be well on the way to being an Islamic state, which is something virtually every Muslim group wants and which very many individual Muslims also desire.
Muslims have not got such power or numbers today. That is why Muslim groups are relatively quiet and relatively undemanding. Given time, and a large increase in Muslim populations and power, things will be radically changed.
No culture and no state in history has experienced long periods of stasis. And this is not going to suddenly change in the case of Great Britain and Europe as a whole - which is not to say that this change will necessarily be Islamic change.
Whether it is Islamic change or not, is up to us. It is up to the non-Muslim citizens of Britain and Europe as a whole. Our destiny lies in our own hands. No one is forcing us to give way to Islam and Islamification. If sharia law and the rest becomes a reality, it is us, Britain's non-Muslims, who will have allowed this to happen. Muslims, after all, are only being true to their religion.
*) The Muslim population of the UK is rising 10 times faster than the non-Muslim population:


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Ethernet Transceivers
Ethernet transceivers are hardware devices designed to connect computers or electronic devices within a network. They are composed of a transmitter and receiver which allows them to place signals onto the network and detect incoming signals. What are ethernet transceivers used for?Ethernet transceivers link computer networks. They play an important role in providing access to the network, digital data conversion, collision detection and processing on the ethernet interface. They can be configured as discrete devices, joined stations or internet hubs available for multiple connections. Ethernet transceivers work together with ethernet controllers to determine which information is meant for which specific computer on the network. Types of ethernet transceiversThere are two types of ethernet transceivers: module ethernet transceivers and chip ethernet transceivers. Module transceivers are external to a network. They either function as standalone devices or are installed and function similarly to other computer peripherals. Chip ethernet transceivers are small and are either wired directly on a circuit board or inserted onto a system board.


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A unique artist has created this extraordinary series of other-worldly landscapes - using nothing more than rotten fruit and veg.
The bizarre artwork is the result of leaving everything from corn to pumpkins out in the open for up to two months as they gradually decay into mouldy, smelly leftovers.
But by using macro photography to get up close and personal to the surface of the various food, the remarkable shots appear to bring the dead food back to life.
And the results are surprisingly stunning - with the rotten items creating landscapes such as the 'cots-moulds' and space-like surfaces which would look at home in a sci-fi film.
The fascinating foodscapes are the brainchild of Estonian artist Heikki Leis, 38, who has been working on the stunning series, dubbed Afterlife, for more than seven years.
He said: "I once left some boiled potatoes out in a pot for too long and forgot about them for quite a while.
"They had started to mould and on closer examination I discovered some interesting textures and colours starting to form which is how it all began.
"The amount of time it takes for different items to rot varies from between two weeks up until two or more months.
"I've used numerous fruits and vegetables but not all of them produce interesting material for photography which is why the project is still on-going.
"My favourite 'models' are beetroot, potato, turnip, corn and pumpkin - which were all the most smelly too. You certainly need a strong stomach to get as close as I do."
Check out Leis' images in the gallery below:


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Mexican federal police officers escort detained men from a home in Mexico City, Tuesday, Jan. 22, 2008. Eleven alleged hit men for the powerful Sinaloa drug cartel were captured.
The alleged cartel hitmen were paraded before the media like captured soldiers of an enemy state. Dressed in white vests, jeans and casual shirts, the eight men stared straight ahead, chins held high in defiant poses as the photographers snapped away.
Their captured hardware was piled up in neat rows in front, reinforcing the image of a military unit: 20 automatic rifles, 10 pistols, 12 M4 grenade launchers, 30 grenades, and more than 40 bullet-proof jackets bearing the legend FEDA — Spanish acronym for Special Forces of Arturo Beltran, an alleged drug kingpin. The group's mission, law enforcement officials said, was to launch attacks on federal police and prosecutors.
One year into President Felipe Calderon's crackdown on drug cartels, police and soldiers are confronting heavily -armed commando-style units of gangsters on an almost daily basis. In the first weeks of January, the two sides clashed in deadly firefights in Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez, Rio Bravo and Reynosa on the U.S. border, and even in quaint tourist towns in the heart of Mexico such as Valle del Bravo.
The gangsters have also carried out a wave of ambushes and assassinations on security officials, slaying one Tijuana policeman in his home along with his wife and 9-year old daughter. In total, more than 20 police officers, a state judge, dozens of alleged traffickers and at least 10 civilians have been killed in the fighting since the New Year.
The violence has also spilled into the U.S., with Mexican police this week arresting an alleged drug trafficker for using a Hummer to run over and kill a Border Patrol Agent in Arizona.
Anti-drug officials believe the uptick in clashes between the police and gunmen of the cartels is a sign that Mexico's long-running drug violence has entered a new phase.
Until recently, most fighting had involved rival traffickers battling over turf, but today most of the violence is between the federal government and the gangsters. The year-long government crackdown has seriously rattled the cartels, the officials say, and they are making an orchestrated attempt to get the government to back off.
"When you see the killings, the cartels are trying to make a statement to the authorities not to interfere with their enterprises. And they are also trying to send a message to the public saying they are in control," said a U.S. anti-drug official, who asked that his name be withheld for security reasons. "It's a P.R. campaign. But it's not going to work. Because, quite frankly, this country has a new sheriff."?
A conservative, bespectacled lawyer, Calderon has made the crackdown his centerpiece policy. He has sent out more than 25,000 soldiers and police to the worst-hit cities, made record cocaine busts and arrested alleged smuggling kingpins, including Beltran's brother Alfredo.
Proclaiming the fight against drugs a war, he has broken Mexican tradition by dressing up in army uniform. "There will be no truce and no quarter to the enemies of Mexico," Calderon told soldiers in a military base last year.
The president is also looking for rewards from north of the border for his clampdown. The U.S. Congress is currently debating a two-year, $1.4 billion anti-drug aid proposal for Mexico, including high-tech phone-tapping equipment and possibly Black Hawk helicopters.
Calderon argues the U.S. government has a responsibility to help because it is U.S. drug consumers that effectively fund the cartels. But skeptics fear that U.S. equipment could fall into the wrong hands. The drug cartels have turned many former police and army officers. One entire unit of army special forces deserted in the late 1990s to form a paramilitary group called the Zetas, who worked as bloody enforcers to help the Gulf Cartel get the edge over its rivals.
The Zetas' paramilitary tactics were imitated by the rival Sinaloa cartel, which trained thousands of up-and-coming thugs in weapons and communications. After years of mutual beheadings and massacres, the two cartels recently made a truce, deciding the bloodshed was bad for business, Mexican and U.S. law officials say. The wrath of both cartels is now turned on the government.
Some analysts say Calderon can win the war if he continues a sustained assault. "He can smash the big organizations in the same way the Colombians took down the Medellin Cartel," said Mexican drug expert Jorge Chabat. "The cartels cannot defeat the government militarily. Their strength is corruption."
Calderon claims he is cleaning out the narco-corruption in all levels of government. The army and federal police have taken took over police stations in several border cities this month, seizing the local force's guns while they root out corrupt officers.
But not everyone is a happy with Calderon's military-style approach to the drug problem. Mexican Human Rights Commissioner Jose Luis Soberanes told Congress this week that his office had collected evidence of widespread torture, rape and murder by police and soldiers in the course of missions against drug gangs.
In one case, 19 soldiers face a court martial for shooting dead two women and three children in June at a roadblock in Sinaloa state. In another case, soldiers are accused of detaining and raping four girls in the mountainous state of Michoacan.
"Individuals belonging to the armed forces committed grave abuses," he said. "The use of the army to fight drug traffickers can only be a temporary solution."


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Traders were obsessed with the IDC report showing much greater declines in PC shipments than expected (see my prior TraderTalk), but a long piece on the semiconductor industry by Barclays is also getting a lot of attention, and deservedly so.
Barclays not only downgraded Broadcom (BRCM), but the entire semiconductor industry this morning (to "neutral" from "positive"), noting "the growth profile in semis is much lower than many expect...."
And it's not just that PC sales are declining: mobile phone sales are maturing, and a lot of other formerly hot consumer products are in decline. Examples:
- Blu-Ray/DVD sales are in decline,
- Console/Handheld Gaming sales are in decline,
- GPS Device sales are in decline,
- CD Player sales are in decline, and
- Cordless Phone sales are in decline.
Ten years ago, these were growth businesses that spurred massive semiconductor demand. Now, the rise of smartphones and tablets are subsuming other product categories and shrinking semiconductor demand.
Specifically: mobile phone chip sales are cannibalizing computer chips and—as noted above—most of the consumer segments are in decline as well.
But isn't mobile phone sales still increasing? Yes, but the vast majority of the growth is in emerging markets, where U.S. chip suppliers have much less sales potential.
Got it? Revenue growth is likely to be much lower in semiconductors. How much lower? The industry grew an average of seven to eight percent annually over the last 20 years; Barclays thinks it will be low-single digit or even flat going forward.
Of course, this could all change if there is a new consumer "killer category" on the horizon. Do you see one? A smartwatch? Please.
What's this all mean? You wouldn't know there was an existential crisis in semiconductors by looking at the stock prices. The Semiconductor Index is close to a multi-year high, down only 0.4 percent today. Barclays says, somewhat generously, that valuations are "full."


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The Deer Park Police Department, in cooperation with Roni, our K-9 dog has been a frequently used program for the city. Officer Joel Nitchman is the K-9 handler.
The K-9 program exists for drug interdiction, particularly on Texas State Highway 225. Officer Nitchman and his companion have seized an extensive amount of illicit drugs and money associated with those drugs. In addition, the K-9 program has aided numerous other agencies around Deer Park on the local, state, and federal level.
It is not uncommon to see Officer Nitchman and Roni make in police terms, a large bust that exceeds 50 pounds of marijuana or more at a time. Roni has been trained to identify numerous types of drugs, including marijuana, heroin, LSD, cocaine, Ecstasy, methamphetamines, and others. Officer Nitchman and Roni have become an intricate part of the Deer Park Police Department and with the community of Deer Park.


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A huge thank you to everyone who joined in last month's challenge. All of the creations were amazing! This month's challenge is Backgrounds and can be interpreted any way you like, as long as it has rubber stamping in it.
To join in with this
challenge (we are limiting the challenge entries to 3 per person), is simple;
all we would like you to do is, make a piece of artwork, making sure
that you include the theme and some rubber stamping. Pop
back here to link up using the Inklinkz at the bottom of this post, so
that we can see what you've made and then, leave us a comment to let us
know you have joined in with the challenge.
As always, there will be candy for one randomly picked entrant - the winner will receive a stamp of their choice from The Artistic Stamper .
As always, there will be candy for one randomly picked entrant - the winner will receive a stamp of their choice from The Artistic Stamper .
In addition, you can enter the same challenge on Facebook!
To join us on just go to our new Facebook group, and send us a request to join..
There will be a prize for the Facebook challenge, as well as the blog challenge!
don't forget....if you use The Artistic Stamper stamps on your entry, you
will entered into the draw, twice!
To get you started here is some creative gorgeousness from some of the team....
there! To celebrate this flower fantasy challenge, I have made an art
journal page with lots of stamped flowers : on the background, on the
edges and as a cut out, I used the Lesley's Flowers size A6 © Lesley Matthewson for a floral and colorful fantasy page :
Flower Fantasy is this months challenge, and I thought I would have a bit of fun turning the light bulb stamp into a flower. I have also stamped inside the light bulbs with a calligraphy mat and one of Lesley's flower stamps.
We hope
that you will join in this month's challenge, and also join us on Facebook too.
We look forward to seeing
your creations. Don't forget to add a comment when you have posted your
Have a very creative month


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Turn off all indoor and outdoor faucets and water operable appliances. Go to your meter and open the black lid. You may need a flashlight to wake your meter. Shine the flashlight on the meter. If a small faucet with a drip of water appears, you have a leak.
Show All Answers
Yes. The Food Town on Garth, Baker, and North Main, Wal-Mart on Garth and Highway 146, Kroger on Garth and Alexander Drive, JoeV's on Garth, and Ace Cash, both Garth locations.
To avoid late charges, payment must be received in the Utility Billing office by 4:00 p.m. on the due date.
By internet, yes. Mastercard, Visa, and Discover credit cards. You can pay online by visiting our online payment portal.
To avoid late charges, payment must be received in the Utility Billing office by 4:00 p.m. on the due date. We do not offer phone payments.
Yes. The late charges are 10% of the water, sewer, garbage, and Municipal Drainage Utility Service (MDUS) charges.
Payments left in the night drop after 4:00 p.m. on the due date are considered late and will have a late fee assessed. Payments made using Official Payments are posted the next business day when funds are received and therefore are considered late.
Yes. Visit our online payment portal page to set up automatic bank draft.
Yes. The Utility Billing office sends a notice of non-payment in the form of a letter once the account is past due and at least eight days prior to the proposed termination date. The letter states the date by which payment must be made to avoid service interruption.
If you own the property, the deposit is $50.00 per unit. If you are renting or leasing, the deposit is $200.00 per unit. Business and commercial deposits are calculated based on comparable business use applied to current rates. There is also a $30.00 service fee per meter.
Payments received in the Utility Billing office before 4:00 p.m. Monday through Friday are posted the same day received. Payments placed in the night drop box or paid online are posted the next business day.
Yes. There is a $25.00 service charge to transfer service and the bill must be paid to date.
The City accepts cash, check, money orders, automatic bank draft, and a credit card with proper identification.
In person/drive-thru Monday through Friday 8:00 a.m. through 4:00 p.m.
Online: www.baytown.org (Online Services)
Automatic Bank Draft
Night Drop
Mail: PO Box 4265 Houston, Texas 77210-4265
Utility Service Payment Portal
This is determined by water usage recorded on your individual water meter, which is read monthly. The number of occupants of the home, the size of the home, and the size of the lawn are some of the possible factors that my or may not apply. The meter tells us exact usage.
Yes. Please contact one of the following office.
Baytown Resource and Assistance Center at 281-424-5752
Harris County Social Services at 281-422-8564
The MDUS fee stands for Municipal Drainage Utility System. Please contact the Engineering Department at 281-420-6545 for more information.
The past due amount plus a $50.00 delinquent fee. If all outstanding charges or fees are paid in the Utility Billing office before 2:00 p.m., the water will be reconnected the same day. If payment is made after 2:00 p.m., water will be restored the next business day
The $50.00 delinquent fee is automatically generated and charged, if the past due amount is not paid in the Utility Billing office before 4:00 p.m. on the notice for non-payment due date.
At any time authorized by Utility Billing prior to your payment due date. Once services have been disconnected, a payment arrangement is not available. All payment arrangements must meet eligibility requirements.
Once the funds are physically received in the Utility Billing office, which generally takes 1 to 3 days depending on the method used. We encourage you not to use these methods if you have received a delinquent disconnect notice.
When the account is closed, the deposit is applied toward payment of the final billing. Any credit balance is refunded to the customer by check after the final bill has been processed.
A leak can cause higher usage also seasonal usage such as lawn watering, children's wading pools, filling pools, additional laundry, and washing automobiles. Also, a misread or defective meter can cause a high bill. Your options in case of a leak: Perform self leak test, request a meter reread ($10.00 charge), or request a meter test ($25.00 charge). We encourage you to notify us immediately.
You will need to register on the Utility Service payment portal to have access to view your bill on this website.
No. The night deposit boxes are located in the front and rear of the Utility Billing Office. Payments placed in the night deposit box are posted the next business day.
With the implementation of Automated Meter Reading (AMR), readings are obtained electronically even if the meter box is full of water or has grass grown over it. The ProRead registers are sealed and transmit through a Meter Interface Unit (MIU) located in the meter box lid which picks up the readings emitted by radio frequency.
Residential sewer charges are based on the customer's monthly water consumption with a cap of 12,000 gallons per month. Commercial sewer charges are based on the customer's monthly water consumption with no cap.
Readings are obtained electronically with a special "drive-by" computer, which picks up the readings emitted by radio frequency through a Meter Interface Unit (MIU). Customers are billed in thousands of gallons so not all dials are used in calculating the bill. The last two digits on the right are dropped when entering the reading for billing, i.e. 547413 is read 6474. The previous reading is subtracted from the current reading to calculate the amount of water used between readings. The meter is read each month.
Yes. BAWA, Baytown Area Water Authority, tests for quality control 24 hours a day. They have 94 sampling points, per month, throughout the City of Baytown. The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEW formerly TNRCC) also conducts tests periodically. BAWA was the fourth plant out of over 500 treatment plants in Texas to receive the Texas Optimization Program (TOP) status. BAWA goes above and beyond the minimum limits set by TCEQ.
Baytown Area Water Authority (BAWA), a surface water treatment facility which receives their raw water from the City of Houston.
The City has a contract with Cadence Bank in Houston to process payments through our lock box.
Dripping faucets, leaking joints, and running toilets. Toilet leaks are the hardest to detect. Sometimes it takes months before you can hear a toilet leaking.
City of Baytown - Utility Billing
PO Box 4265
Houston, TX 77210-4265