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My friend and guest on today's podcast, Kristina Hoyer, and I talk about a wide range of topics from high-stress situations and how to handle them. We talk about her career in the military as an elite Navy rescue swimmer and her transition to civilian life. Last, we talk about her experience with trauma and the lessons you can learn from her experiences.
Episode Notes
Kristina and I chat kiteboarding
- Learning when to bail
- Training to know your limits
- Learning how to get through high-stress situations
- Kristina's experience in the Navy
- Resiliency-based mindset
- Transitioning to purpose-driven stress
- Strategies for bringing the body into a parasympathetic. state
- Kristina's experience with RPR in Costa Rica
- Dealing with chronic pain
- Find Kristina on Instagram
- Or online: Kristina Hoyer Collective
This podcast is brought to you by the Physiologic Flexibility Certification course. In the course, I talk about the body's homeostatic regulators and how you can train them. The benefit is enhanced recovery and greater robustness. We cover breathing techniques, CWI, sauna, HIIT, diet, and more.
Rock on!
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Dr. Mike T Nelson
PhD, MSME, CISSN, CSCS Carrick Institute Adjunct Professor Dr. Mike T. Nelson has spent 18 years of his life learning how the human body works, specifically focusing on how to properly condition it to burn fat and become stronger, more flexible, and healthier. He's has a PhD in Exercise Physiology, a BA in Natural Science, and an MS in Biomechanics. He's an adjunct professor and a member of the American College of Sports Medicine. He's been called in to share his techniques with top government agencies. The techniques he's developed and the results Mike gets for his clients have been featured in international magazines, in scientific publications, and on websites across the globe.
- PhD in Exercise Physiology
- BA in Natural Science
- MS in Biomechanics
- Adjunct Professor in Human
- Performance for Carrick Institute for Functional Neurology
- Adjunct Professor and Member of American College of Sports Medicine
- Instructor at Broadview University
- Professional Nutritional
- Member of the American Society for Nutrition
- Professional Sports Nutrition
- Member of the International Society for Sports Nutrition
- Professional NSCA Member
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Hey what's going on? It's Dr. Mike T. Nelson here. And we are back with another episode of the Flex Diet Podcast. And today, I've got my good friend and guests, Christina Hoyer. And we talk about a wide range of things from high stress situations, what should you do in them different ways of getting through them? When should you walk away?
This may be an experience to a sport you're doing or even heavy lift in the gym. We also talk about her career in the military as a elite, Navy rescue swimmer and her transition out of that back into civilian life. And then a fair amount of discussion about, I would say, just trauma in general. And are there different tools and techniques you can do?
What is her experience with that? So I originally met her at Dr. Ben houses place at the flow retreat center in Costa Rica. And I helped her with some pain that she was having. That was a very transformative experience, I think, for both of us. And it definitely helped. So she talks about her journey with that and where she's at.
And then we discuss some lessons that you can apply if you're going through something similar in your life, or you know, someone that is, and just a real wide ranging conversation. She's awesome, I would highly recommend you check out her stuff, especially most of it, the newer updated stuff is on Instagram, we'll have the link down here below. Really, really wonderful stuff. And she's been out here to the extreme Human Performance Center, done some fun Max, two K's and metabolic cart testing and Moxie and club bells and lifting and sprinting and all that kind of fun stuff. So enjoy this conversation with Christina Hoyer.
This episode is brought to you by the Physiologic Flexibility Certification. So the phys flex certification is four different based interventions of how to become more resilient and more anti fragile. So once you've got the basics down of exercise and basic nutrition and recovery, what should be the next area you would want to focus in.
Or if you know, you're going to be in a high stress situation coming up, or just want to be better prepared for whatever life has for you next, I would argue that these four interventions are the best way to facilitate that ability to be more resilient and anti fragile. So that is the basis of the physiologic flexibility cert, you can go to physiologicflexibility.com. For all the information there. It is currently not open yet, but you can put your name on the waitlist and you will be able to get all the information about the next time that it opens. So enjoy this conversation with my good friend, Christina Hoyer.
Kristina Hoyer
Good. How's everything been in your world?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
It's been good. We got back from South Padre the other day, the day and a half in Austin. So we got back may 5, I think. Okay. Yeah, which was good. It was good. I mean, we got a fair amount of kiteboarding out out, maybe like 10 days, which wasn't bad. I flew my 70 meter probably half of the time. So of course, I would like a little bit more when but had some good days. I'm a 12 meter and didn't quite hit my goal of a 20 foot vertical jump, but I hit 17 feet.
And I had consistently over 10 to 14 feet and landed probably 90% of them better in terms of landing deficiency, or before it was a little bit more hit or miss. And then at a PR for distance, so like 111 feet, somewhere around there. So that's amazing. Yeah, so it was pretty fun. Yeah, it was good. It was it was fun. I took my surfboard out one day, I didn't do any foiling. I was going to but the water a lot of times was like super low. And the days it was a little bit better. It was windy and I'm like, Ah, screw it. I don't want to learn anything new and the ship kicked out of me. I just want to ride my twin tip and try to jump so
Kristina Hoyer
especially when you get the opportunity to like have really good winds for that. I feel like you have to take advantage of that anyways, right? Yeah.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
And it's kind of like, pick your battles, you know, and, but nothing too bad happened. I blew valve once sort of walk in from like a three hour session, so I kind of sucked. And then I had my Spreader Bar exploded on me one night, which was my own fault, because I could not have used it probably 13 years and I literally that day was like, hey, you know, took God out in the afternoon. I'm like, I'll go back out and like, you know, I should probably use a different bar. And I got all the out there and realized I didn't I didn't grab the other one. Yeah, like, yeah, it'll be fine.
For 13 years in a row. Yeah, no worries. It was like an evening session, and I went to load up for a job. But all of a sudden, you hear this loud snap? And like, like, everything was gone. No. So yeah, cuz you've got a chicken loop, this loop that holds you into the line. And then my thought was, well, we've got a safety line on the side. So if that breaks the safety line, we'll pull the kite and you can still get access to the kite and just you have to walk in or whatever. And the water wasn't overhead there. So they both exploded, and they both disappeared. So all of a sudden, there goes my kite, my bar my lines, like everything. I was like, Oh, shit. So I'm like, running through the water, like trying to get it.
And luckily, two of my other friends, one of my friends went out there and grabbed the kite, so it didn't keep going off. And then another guy came out. And so I'm like, well, I'll just roll it up and walk in. I was pretty far out at that time. So he was nice enough, I deflated it. He came back and just grabbed it in a big ball. And then it was course evening. So it's starting to get dark. And I'm just like, man, like before that I'm like, I could self rescue, but the wind was a little bit offshore. So I'm gonna end up like way on the other side. I'm like, I'll just keep walking, as long as I know what direction is towards land and don't get disorientated. And then like, another guy came by and dragged me to shore and there was only like a mile and a half walk on shore winds to get back. So still,
Kristina Hoyer
that's pretty hefty. That's, yeah, like all your gear and everything to like, that's like kind of a walk.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, so luckily, I didn't have my car. At that point. He someone brought my board up. So it ended up being worked out. Okay, I got all my stuff back. And nothing was other than the spreader bar was broke. But so it could have been a lot worse than that.
Kristina Hoyer
So after 13 years, see, that's like a pretty good run.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I know. And it's one of those things where, like, you know, I inspected it every time but it was I took way too many materials classes, but it's like what they call a catastrophic failure, where everything was fine, but if you get like a little bit of a crack inside, when I was in New loaded unpressured the whole thing, I'll just you know, just below so yeah. Yeah, lesson learned. Maybe every
Kristina Hoyer
10 years, like replace the equipment or something like
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I did that with my helmet this year before he went on a ski trip in February. It's like, Oh, I've had my hold on for probably 10 years. Yeah, probably just time to suck it up and get a new one.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, it sucks with like, how it's an investment. I feel like for any of those types of sports, like buy once cry once I think is the same. Yeah. So it's like, at least it lasted 10 years, instead of it being like, Okay, I'm gonna buy this. And then like, just three or five years from now, I'm gonna spend that chunk of change again. So 10 years is not too bad.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, I also do this mental thing where I have some money saved. If I have to, you know, lose a kite, which could be hundreds to 1000s of dollars, depending on which one that I practice the mental thing of just letting it go, which I know sounds a little weird, because I don't want that slight hesitation when something's going really bad. Or you have to purposely get out of everything to be like, No, I should try to save my case. Like no, don't just that's, I can be easily replaced, like other shit that happens to you can't be so yeah.
Kristina Hoyer
I feel like just a good practice in general in life, right? Like, material things can be replaced, but like your life or limb is like, you can't put a price point on that until you experience like losing your capability to do something. And then you're like, maybe it would have been better for me to let go of my very expensive piece of equipment so that I could like continue to do this more. Or can you live life? You know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, and especially like, I've also practice going to different areas sometimes or just days where, like, everything looks great. Like there's no reason you feel like you, you shouldn't go and there's that subsidize that that fine line between I know it's a little stress inducing versus Am I really feeling like something's not right, you know what I mean? Cuz there's always little apprehension, you know, and that type of thing.
And we were in Australia a couple of years ago, and I dragged all my kiteboarding gear down there was supposed to be windy and we're there for two and a half weeks, I'm like, has to be great. We got a rental car, we could move the gear around. So I'm hauling my gear to like all these different places we were at. And one day we get to this new beach and wide open areas. Not any rocks Fair. Mana waves. It was pretty windy. I was like, nobody else is here. And nobody was like super nervous about it too. And I'm just like, ah doesn't, you know something just doesn't feel right. You know what I mean? You're just Yeah, so I, I didn't have them go in, which I think is probably the right decision.
But that was like the only potential time I actually could have went on the whole trip. So it's like this, this thing of like, you paid all the money, you haul your gear around, you're trying to do this thing, but then you have the chance to do it, it's like, are you still able to walk away at that point, because you had this feeling of like, it may not be a good thing, you know, but there's that kind of the pressure also of like, I came here to do this thing. And I brought all this stuff, and I paid all the money and you know, so right, what is irrelevant at that point, but it's like the, the sunk cost fallacy. It's like, I've spent all this time doing this, like, it's, you know, doesn't matter at that point. But mentally, you're just still kind of focused on that.
Kristina Hoyer
I think it's like a, I don't, I'm not gonna be able to quote this properly. But I like a mountain near saying to that, like on Tuesdays that feel like it's like the absolute most perfect day to go like that is like most often not the right day for you to go because it's like, that's like the day where like, the most devastating things tend to happen on the mountain or something like that. I can't remember I remember hearing it in a documentary. But I think it's like that inner. I don't know, this might sound funny, right?
But like that inner voice like that, knowing of like, okay, there's a difference between my ears, like exhilaration based fear around like preservation of life. But I'm doing like these sports that push you to that edge. And then the other side of that, that's like, there's something that feels just off about this today, like that little small indication that like, depending on what sphere of like the world and science you anchor into like is either your subconscious gathering a whole bunch of bits of information that you're not consciously bringing to the front of your mind.
And you don't necessarily fully understand, but it's just indicating to you this or it's like your intuition, like your deeper inner knowing, that's just like, there's something that's gonna go wrong that you can avoid by like listening to this, you know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. And that's always hard to like, even with lifting like, everybody's had. You've had it, I'm sure I've had people listen to this podcast where you're like, you kind of have to make that split second decision of like, do I push through this rep? Or do I kind of not? Right, you don't have like a whole bunch of time to think about it at the point where you have to decide, right? Yeah.
Kristina Hoyer
Standing there for a couple of minutes, like, I don't think so.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, I heard that from when I was learning to wakeboard, and trying to on a full length road cross, you know, jump from one side of the way to the other side. Yeah, and just suck so bad when you miss, right? Because you just hammer into the other side of the week where you don't quite make it or you land funny.
And so I got in this habit of like going off and then halfway through just freaking out and just like letting go the handle, oh, day a couple of times, I actually landed it, but I didn't have the handle in my hand. So then you go through the process of like, trying not to hold on and then you just get pummeled half the time. There's no easy way I don't think a lot of times to when you're in that kind of middle ground, right? Because if I let go all the time, I'm never gonna make any progress. Right? Hold on 100% of the time. He is small percentage, some bad shits gonna happen.
But if it's a new thing, like you just don't have the skill set to figure it out. Right. So it's just like, How can I kind of ride the edge of Yep, that was a good time to let go. Nope. That wasn't, and sometimes you just kind of have to force yourself through it a little bit, too, you know?
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah. Yeah. That's not like riding I guess like riding the edge. I guess you could call it right. That I feel like genuinely only comes from experience. Like you have to get out there and like, get totally pummeled by a wave, like over and over and over again.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
surfing is very much like that. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Kristina Hoyer
Surfing I feel like it's very much like that. And it's like, that's the reason why these sports are kind of fun to us, though. I feel like is we've gone through really good surfing days are really good kiteboarding days where it's just like a total blast. And you're like, oh, yeah, and you're knowing your bot like your weight distribution is amazing.
And like, you're able to really like connect, I guess with like the board and the equipment and like move through things well, and then there's the other days where you're like nothing went well today. I learned a lot though on like what not to do on this board. Well, what waves I am currently capable of handling and what waves I'm not currently capable of handling. Um, but yeah, there's I've left my soul and notion a couple of times.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I think you get better at making that sort of split second decision to, you know, have in in the moment, is this the right thing or not. I remember also kiteboarding, a couple of years ago, I went up was doing a jump. And for some reason, I was trying to like 12 feet up, and the kite was instead of a bug knee was out in front of me.
So I completely screwed something up. I remember being at the top of the jump looking at my kite in front of me. I'm like, and I just let go, like, I let go the bar, I just let go of everything. Which means at that point, you're just going to drop out of the sky, like a sack of potatoes. And like the second I did it, I was like, well, it was so bad. That was so the wrong decision. You know what? And like, later, you're like, I should have brought the kite back up over me.
And it would have been fine. But yeah, again, you have that like, millisecond to kind of decide and knowing when do you override what everything in your body is telling you to do? Right? So I'm kiteboarding. When you bring the bar in, you actually can power up the kite so it goes faster. So when you're learning when you watch people, and they get really stressed out, even like seasoned pros have gotten, you know, damaged or killed, unfortunately, sometimes when something happens, and they freak out, and they pull the bar in, which causes everything to accelerate, right?
Because that flexion response of getting stressed is to go in the fetal position to pull stuff closer to you, which just accelerates whatever bad thing was happening to you at the time. You know, so can you get enough reps in where you can hopefully have that like, you know, a couple of milliseconds to override that and to retrain it to let go or, you know, to get out? And kind of what are the consequences of that to just like Olympic lifting, right? Like, when do I ditch the weight? And when do I try to fight through it because I think I can get it? Right knowing that that carries an inherent risk, but it also carries a higher reward. Like when you do that, and you actually get to the thing, you're like, Oh, I was like the best ever.
Kristina Hoyer
That is so true. I man, when I first started the Olympic lifting, I remember just like the I had a very, very, very aggressive mindset block. Oh well, wait. Um, it sounds like a super simple way. But it's just that like, once I hit 135, and I had like, like a 45 on each side. And I could stack like a whole bunch of tents and put a five on and it would be fine.
But it was like having those plates on there. And I like my mind every time was like, gets you to the point where it's like, you're gonna die. If you like you're gonna, it's for sure. And so it's interesting, like, with things like this. And like one thing that comes to mind a lot with it is like cold water exposure, right? Definitely, really practicing overriding that initial instinct of like, your, your mind is literally like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing this, this is not going to be good for us.
And practicing and developing that muscle and like kind of that switch that mindset switch because like you said, it's like a millisecond second day, you have to decide like, from the pole to the full extension to the catch. Like you have to be able to override that part of your brain that's like, don't don't receive this bar. Like, it's gonna be bad for you, bad for us bad for longevity and survival. And then but once you finally get over that, and you like actually stand up with a weight and like complete a whole lift with a weight like that, that PR moment or that mindset breakthrough moment is like nothing else. Hey, so amazing.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, and I think of the two examples I think of too. One of them was like, like scuba diving. Like we did some dives down in Bonaire years ago. And we were down about like 100 110 feet. You know, it's usually pretty relaxing, the water was super clear. But there's also the thing of, you know, once you get past 4060 feet, especially recreational diving, you can't really freak out. You know what I mean? Like, you got a partner there, right? You can know all the safety protocols, you could buddy breathe, etc. But you can't just ascend back to the surface. No, right? Because you have to have safety stop all these other things.
So it's a weird mindset of like, okay, nothing can really go wrong, but if it does, okay, here's what I'm gonna do like so. I think you'll get better at that with with practice. Right? So doing it in a safe environment practice buddy breathing, practicing safety measures, and a lot of it after that, it's just it's kind of this mental thing. Right? So I like like you said the cold water to have can I tell As myself in ways that are very, very safe, so very high safety margin, but I get the same sensation, right, and I agree 100% with cold water, because you know, you've been here, right, we've got the freezer, it's a pretty safe environment, right?
I mean, and the safety factor is pretty high, even at 45 degrees, you could be in there for several minutes, and you're still gonna be fine, it's not gonna be fun, but you're not really gonna damage yourself. And obviously, at some point, you could, but I think that's a good way to practice that kind of mindset of, if I'm in a situation were to, if I freak out, some really bad things can happen. Right. So like, even kiteboarding for a while, I would freak out. So I let the bar out in the air, which then causes the kite to kind of left me just to crash out of the sky. So like on a bigger jump than what I expect, can I just keep holding the bar in because everything in your, your body kind of wants to wants to let go and get away.
But if you do that, like even worse stuffs gonna happen? Yeah, you know, and just kind of getting more comfortable with that like, okay, to 10 feet, that was good, okay, just 14 feet, okay, that wasn't too bad. And then being able to be in a more relaxed state. And when you can do that, like you have more sensation, you actually have more data, you have more information, you know, can I go off kind of like look around a little bit while I'm up, like know about how much time I have, you know, or the first time you do like a jump of two feet, you almost piss yourself you're like, ah, you know.
Kristina Hoyer
I love that. No, that's like, I think that's something that for me, I I mean, I think just in general, right? People look at people like individuals who have either participated in like a high stress job or high stress athletics or whatever right arena of life that they've participated in, like many moments of like acute adrenaline and acute stress.
And then they have this like, overall, like more, I would say, like grounded and calm like demeanor about them, I think throughout like regular life. And a lot of that I think comes from like that realization that like if you can stay in like a less stressed space, then time slows down a little bit, you actually have the opportunity to gather a lot more data and a lot more perspective. So you can like respond to a situation and sort of like allowing that innate reaction to be the first thing that kicks in. And then there's that like, secondary response that is more of what how you wanted to move through it.
But now it's like, Well, you already reacted, and now we're experiencing the after effects of the reaction instead of the forward movement of the response.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. So in your past job in the military, tell people about what that was, and how do you think those concepts apply to what you did in the past?
Kristina Hoyer
Um, I would say so I, I was a United States Navy rescue swimmer for six years, and it was a blast. It was a crash course in how to handle yourself in high stress situations, for sure. I remember the first time that I ever did star jumps and like don't actually jump
Dr. Mike T Nelson
or jump for people who don't Yeah, yeah, I was like,
Kristina Hoyer
remember, not everyone knows. No, no
Dr. Mike T Nelson
military has, like, there's much more acronyms probably than physiology. So
Kristina Hoyer
we save so much time, though, you know, totally.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Kristina Hoyer
Um, so search and rescue jumps is basically where you coming out of a helicopter on the side of the helicopter or jumping out of the door, and jumping into the ocean in an attempt to save somebody who's stranded or drowning, or you know, anything where you're swept out to sea and are unable to save yourself. Of course, there's like jet objections and down helicopters and man overboard and all that other kind of stuff as well.
So we typically by the pub are supposed to by the publication are supposed to do jumps from the helicopter at a certain height and a certain speed. But when we're doing training jumps, we have multiple rescue swimmers jumping out of the helicopter at a time so it's like jump one jump and other jump and other and as they're jumping, the how the helicopter pilot is like pulling power and lifting to come out of the hover for when we're jumping out.
And so the last person to go you typically get a much higher jump poor bastard. Yeah. And the first time I jumped out of the helicopter, even though I'm definitely a bit of an adrenaline junkie myself, everything in my body was like, no, like, no, you've come this far. I Know that you made it at all. But you know, we're down here. This is where we draw the line. And so I hesitated, they tap on your shoulder, and it's like jump, jump, jump, right, and you're supposed to deploy yourself from the helicopter. And I just sat there, and I was just frozen, like, absolutely frozen in fear. And my instructor at the time gave me an encouraging, push.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Like, it's your time you're going out.
Kristina Hoyer
You have to go. And so I jumped at a much higher height than I should have. Because I did hesitate. Right. And that was on me. Yeah. So I think like that, and that happening over and over and over again, through my career, like, getting to jump out of the helicopter, and then that on top of, you know, landings at night and other more stressful things happening, you're flying in a helicopter, right?
There's a lot of things that go into operating those types of things, when you're deployed, and I've see and actually on mission sets. I think for me, like the the biggest thing that developed for me, and the applicability of it is that there's almost like this separation now between like that instinctual voice and then like the more resiliency based higher voice. And like that voice gets to be louder now and has the opportunity to be like, Well, I'm the adult in the chair, who gets to make these decisions. And like, yes, you have those responses and those reactions that are more innate.
But that higher voice and not one that's been developed through those high stress situations, what is like, honestly, probably the most helpful thing for me to just like have that, that recognition in that space between where I have the opportunity to respond versus react, and also make decisions on like, I can create more time and more space, when I need it, as long as I can remain like calm and collected enough to gain data and perspective, and then move forward, and then be able to make decisions a little bit quicker than if I would have just stayed in the reaction.
Because like that time that I jumped, if I when I stayed in that reaction, I was so frozen. And if I would have been in the state I am now which of course like I needed all those years of development, I would have been able to go a lot quicker, because I have that resiliency based mindset developed from those many moments of experience.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Do you think some of that is like the technical term that uses like threat inoculation, which is just fancy words for putting yourself right on the sort of the, the hairy edge of where things could go awry, but it's probably within your training in your comfort zone? Obviously, they're not doing this on day one, you have extensive training that goes into it. But yeah, in certain situations, no matter how much training you have there, you're just emotionally unlimitedly wired for your body to be like this a bad idea?
Kristina Hoyer
Absolutely, yeah, I've been I've actually I've never heard that term before. But I, I completely agree. And like you said, right, there's like that certain amount of training exposure that we have with it. But there's nothing that can equate to like, like, literally, you know, like you're flying in, and like the helicopters, the you know, dropping down and altitude and your feet are already out the door, and like wind is flying by and like, depth perception is so different.
Like when you're above the ocean, and in a helicopter, so you're on, you're at like 50 feet, and you're like, This doesn't look bad. Then you get into like, the 10 or 15 foot. And you're like, well, this actually is like, this is kind of scary. This is this is kind of like what if this goes wrong, you know? And it is it's we have so many protocols for safety and so much training that goes into it and a proper way to jump and if not a proper way to jump and, you know, regulations and standards for speed and altitude.
So I agree with you, it's like right on that threshold of the threat where it's like, there's a probably like 70% chance that this should go right. Yeah, it's like, right there on the sweet spot. I guess you could say it for a threat inoculation.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
So what do you think about at that point, like what do you do? Did you have any sort of personal things you would do or things you found helpful?
Kristina Hoyer
Um, man. Let me think about them. I would say at that point. When I was in the beginning, there was nothing I thought about besides I have to do this. Yeah. I have no choice but to do this. But further down the line there. I think what really was helpful for me is like, similar to how some athletes have like a, like a setup or like a pregame ritual, or even for people who don't necessarily play sports, but they have like a, a systemized way of like going into things that make them nervous, whether it's like a podcast or a client call or whatever, right where you have your rituals.
So I think what eventually became helpful for me was like anchoring into like, okay, like, all my gear is checked, like, this is how I check my gear. I'm at the edge of the the door and the helicopter like I'm as far out as I can go without falling out of this helicopter, like I am, I can clearly communicate with my crew chief, I'm off of comms. But like, I know that they know what they're doing. And I know, I know what I'm doing.
And I've checked all my gear, I know exactly where I'm going exactly what I'm doing. And like having that like kind of procedural anchor, I think was really helpful to like, reaffirm to me in the moments like, you know what you're doing? You've been here before. Yes, there are factors that are different. But the success the success rate has been there, or slash and you've recovered from the ones that weren't as successful. Yeah. Right. So it's like, because you're not always going to be like, Oh, that was the best thing ever. Right? Yeah. I remember, the worst, like, hardest jump I ever took was from, like, 35 feet. Oh, and it was, you know, like, the last person coming out of the pole of the, like, the pole of the selective the helicopter was trying to, you know, stay pull away from it, right. And I knew it was too high.
And I tried to communicate it. But I was just like, You know what, I'm just gonna do it. Right. I'm just gonna get it over with, we're in a training gym. And I jumped out of the helo and we kind of joke in our community, because that's what happens when you go through like hard stuff together. Yeah, that like the amount of arm swings, like on the way down, because you're like job holding on to your radio and your mask and snorkel. But when he it's a really long fall, you'll literally like rotate your arms to try to like keep your body up. And it's usually like one rotation for like, every 10 feet.
And so, so I like rotated my arm so many times trying to keep my body up, right. And I ended up having like black and blue bruising all the way, like on the back of my size, and my bum. And I the bottom of my chin, like ripped open like I had, I'm hitting them water. Oh, yeah. And my mask and snorkel flew off, but we like tie them to our equipment, because that happens sometimes. And we don't want to lose our masks. And so I like that flew last night and like find it and I was like, I'm okay. Bye.
But after like moments like that, it's about like, for me, it was always about coming back to like, alright, what are the percentages of times that you've had success? And what is the percentage of time that you've had like a blip or what you could consider a failure, or whatever you want to look at it like, and it was always as long as like my percentage of recovery, or my percentage of good executions through stressful situations was higher than the amount of failures or perceived failures, then it's like always anchoring back into that. Because I'm super analytical. So of course, I'm going to spend like an excessive amount of time analyzing why this went wrong. But if I spent all my time doing that, then I'll just sit in fear forever, you know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, it was snowboarding when you'd go off a jump that you weren't quite expecting. You would call it in the air rolling down the car windows. Oh, yeah. I did that. Once that mom, Bohemia. I was up in Michigan Tech. I did ski patrol. And so we signed on there. I didn't normally do ski patrol up there. I did at Mountain Ripley.
And we got there the Hill had just opened and they just got hammered with snow. Like, Ron there wasn't open yet. There was like three and a half feet of snow. And so I'm with another guy, we're going down. It was like, Hey, look at all that snow there in that close run. That'd be fun to do. He's like, Let's go do it. Oh, like kick us out. He's like, Oh, who's gonna kick us out and like, oh, yeah, good point. And we knew that they had a drop off because for line testing the chair but that wasn't until one in the afternoon. Okay, so he's nigga under there, and I'm going down the hill.
And I'm like, Oh, this is so cool. And I, I see this little mound, I was like, oh, it's gonna be fun to jump off this little mountain and I go off. And what I didn't know is that it dropped like 20 feet on the other side. And so I go off, you know, five, six foot drop. And I'm in the air, like just rolling down the car windows going. Like a long time. We're like a long time. And it was nice and soft, like landed nothing. Nothing bad happened actually landed on my board, and then just faceplant and right after that. But that was like so probably like one of the best runs ever done in my life.
And then the patrol director shoot us out for good a half hour and yeah, but it was worth it. No one was gonna tell us No, I know. He's like, when it says close. That means no one's supposed to go down. And I'm like, hope sorry.
Kristina Hoyer
You're like, but if you would have seen how epic the run was?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I know. I know. I think there's other saying too, that people don't rise to the occasion, they fall to the level of their training. Yeah, just something that I try to think about too, right. So kind of you. There's some point you have to kind of take that leap, right. But can you kind of progressively just trying a little bit more like kind of expanding your capacity just a little bit, but at some point, you know, you kind of you just kind of have to go for it too, you know?
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, absolutely. I almost feel like those two like that. Like those unexpected, crazy jumps, like, in life all around are kind of like those things that set that new bar for us. Like whether or not you've actually been like, trained to that new bar, right? You haven't been trained to Yeah, but at least that's like the possibility kind of like, you know, we weren't able to run a sub four minute mile until somebody did it. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.
And so it's even for our own individual capacities, like taking those leaps and taking those jobs, even though they're unexpected most of the time, like, almost open our eyes to like, oh, man, like maybe I actually have like this whole level of capacity and capability that I never really wanted or expected myself to tap into. But now I have like an expectation of like, this is the new level I want to be working towards. So how can I start tailoring my training to push me to that level through like the incremental changes over time, and then I can take that jump in unexpected manner?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, one of the phrases I like and Kimber the guy's name, but I think it's the crazy guy who invented the Segway. But he had a saying of like, you know, don't Don't tell me it's impossible. Just tell me nobody's done it before. Right, which I thought was really good, because a lot of people will confer that nobody's done it before. Therefore, it's impossible. Yeah, it was actually an inaccurate statement. It just means nobody's done it before. Right? It may be possible may actually be impossible, but the answer is we don't know yet. Right. So I always thought that was like, super interesting.
Kristina Hoyer
I love that. I love that too. Especially like the we don't know yet part. I think that's a part of, I don't know, just like discovery in science in general that we've like, kind of almost like gotten away from and some of like, the public sphere of things where it's like, like, a lot of science is about discovering and trying to find new places and things and paths and stuff that we've never done before and that we don't know or understand, and it just hasn't been there yet. Or it really might be impossible, but we don't really know that yet. Because we haven't really tried it.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, if you want a better answer, you probably need a better question.
Kristina Hoyer
It's a skill set to learning to ask really good questions.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Oh, definitely. Do you? Do you think your mindset was all of this stress will make me better? Or how did you view just stress as just a general thing? Because I think many times gets I don't wanna say misinterpreted maybe.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, absolutely. I could agree with you especially when we're coming to like when we're looking at like the simple stories right? Stress I think is like distilled into this like demonized thing, right? When I was in the service, I just loved stress. Like not like I thrived in this space of like, I have to always be so busy I remember when I was younger even before I got in the service like the way I would measure like a successful day was like whether or not I got to the end of the day and my feet hurt.
So I had to be so busy and so like stressed out and like had that constantly have that like adrenaline drip going on. But so I did very much so see stress as like my my advocate stress was like my that's what was always going to be the thing that got me to the next level. Well as like a human being, or as like a service member or rescue swimmer, an aviator, whatever I wanted to apply it to an athlete. And the interesting part about that is that I got to the end of my six years and then ended up having to develop a very new relationship with stress, because I was so addicted to it. And it was the only type of life that I knew and like that I loved. And then my body started to demand me to slow down a little bit more, and to become a little bit more purposeful with how I used stress. And the cool part about that is that like, now, it's like more of an effective lever than ever before.
Versus before it was just like, right? Like, give me my stress, like, constantly be moving that even taking like a rest day or a day to like actually integrate and recover and like, like you need those like that is a part of an an effective training regimen is like having time to recover. And I never could understand that, like people who would rest or take naps or like, take a day off. I was always like, so yeah. And then once my body really started to ask that from me, it was like, Okay, now let's learn about how can we take this this advocate this friend, this like thing that we've always known to be very helpful and effective for us.
But how can we make it actually more effective and more helpful and like more intentional, instead of it just being like this kind of thing that would just like grind away with me. And then I'd get then of like, you know, like a couple months of like, really a lot of busyness and be like, Oh, I wonder why I'm so tired. We're more coffee.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, that's similar to me, like I spent God, decades of my life being the solution to all life's problems is work harder. Drink More coffee, listen to more death metal. Yes. Amen. Amen. It's like, and the hard part is, because that actually does work up until the point where it doesn't work. And then you're left with this. Your brain is so confused, because all your associations were that this was a thing that helped me reach whatever level you're at. And now the cost starts becoming exponential for it, and you can't do it like you did before. And you're left just going, Oh, whoa. And then you feel like you don't have any coping mechanism. You feel like you can't get anything done. You're comparing it to what you did before? And, yeah, it's kind of a very interesting transition.
Kristina Hoyer
Yes, one of the I would say one of the most aggressive transitions to make and like a lifetime, like one of them, right? There's many, but I'm one of them. And I think that's one of the reasons why we see like so much of the veteran population, like come out of the service, or have seen at least come out of the service and just kind of like, aimlessly wander for a while, because there's so much like, like, there's a lot of pieces to that puzzle. But there is like, there's so much of this stress lifestyle.
And then you get out and there's no, there's no one's pushing you anymore. No one's like putting that pressure and not constant stress anymore. It's just like, now you've got to figure out how are you going to do that yourself and make it purpose driven, and not make it just like this? I'm just going to beat myself into the ground until my body can't do it anymore type of mentality, you know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. And I've had some interesting conversations, they probably won't mind me sharing this, but with our good friends, Jeff, and you know, Rick, obviously, from social forces experience, yeah, and just talking to them. And I think they would openly admit in public, and I'm not putting words in their mouth, per se, that they think both would agree that to be the person they're at now, which is very different, especially being out of the military, that that person, consequently probably couldn't do the jobs that they did before.
But at the same time, realizing that they don't, they want to be somebody else and be something different now, which I always think that it's really cool. When you can see people who have done what I would imagine is an excruciatingly hard transition and have done it successfully. Right?
Because it's you're transitioning away to be somewhere else, but knowing that by doing that, you you wouldn't be able to do the job you did before even though you don't want to, right, it's almost like letting go of like that was almost another person another time in your life. Versus I've seen other people who haven't been able to do that. Right. And they're still holding on to this thing that they did before even though they can't Do it now. And they're not not required to do it now, but it just seems like they're having a hard time transitioning because they're still kind of stuck in the past all the time, too.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah. Yeah. It's that's like the I mean, the military is designed in the military, right? Like, yeah, exactly masculine very structure, like there is there it is, the military, right has it very intentional and important job to do. And, I mean, being able to witness and just like from a distance to witness and then no little pieces of Rick's story to like, watching him grow and evolve and change from his accent to like, where he is now has been such an inspiration for me.
And Jeff, I don't know personally, but being able to watch like the development of the Special Forces experience and the way that they've put that together to I just think that though, the transition out and as you're kind of like born into, like, a new version of yourself, you almost have to like say goodbye to that identity, that you got to hold while you're in the service. Because I know for me, and like, like you me then and me now what did I feel like I look like two different women because it's, I was so just pure intensity, pure intensity pure adrenaline, there wasn't any space for softness, or, like empathy or love or like the appreciation of like, like, even going to like a botanical gardens and like enjoying, like, the beauty of flowers, or like really like sitting at the beach and just like loving being by the ocean, like, like, like, listen, we don't have time for that, we need to zoom for like three hours and then somewhere else, you know.
It is this opportunity to expand into so much wider of like the spectrum of what's available in life. And I can absolutely, like echo those sentiments because it's like, I if I would have stayed in the service for 20 years, I would have missed out on this like, almost like Yin side of life that is like, filled with joy and ease and love and emotion. But it's really cool because it affords the capability to still tap into that adrenaline and intensity and like more of that, like well rounded. Like well rounded human. And I think some of like the most well known martial artists in our lifetimes have really conceptualized that idea is like once you can be embodied and like the yin and the yang, you can be more intentional with your intensity, and then that intensity becomes even more powerful.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Which is cool. Yeah, I think of that as Can you oscillate between parasympathetic and sympathetic, right? If it's time to relax, can you down regulate, low enough to actually relax? And, you know, consequently, if it's go time, it's go time, can you up regulate, to get to do whatever it is you need to do.
And just, you got I've never been in the military, but a lot of my friends who have especially at very, very high levels, and I think they've gotten much better at this, some of the highest levels are actually better at this than other levels of teaching people. Okay, here's, I was talking to Ben Jeff about this, like using RPR and other stuff to teach them to down regulate, but you can't directly sell that because that's not a rewarded thing. But selling it as this will help your shooting accuracy.
This will help your performance which it definitely does. There's lots of anecdotal reports on that. And then they have the experience this has happened a few people have, oh, wow, that actually helped my performance. But it also helped me to down regulate off the performance on the other side. You kind of sneak it in of like, yeah, vegetables are good for you. But we'll we'll stick them inside a doughnut first. Donut
Kristina Hoyer
here eat the donut. It'll make you a better human being all right.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I don't know if you have any thoughts of like, how do you what have you found that it's helpful to kind of get through those those transitions?
Kristina Hoyer
A lot of so one of the I mean, breathwork has been huge for me not even breath work, right? Because I feel like those like coin terms can kind of come with a lot of preconceptions right like rotation and mindfulness and breath work. They all kind of come with their own preconceived lenses. But even just like being able to hear my breath, and influence my breath has been really huge because that changes when you're in Paris. empathetic versus a sympathetic response.
And being able to influence that. Or even just hear it or feel it is huge because it's almost like training your ear or training your senses to be able to more regularly detect it. And then one of the ones I super love them, I actually teach like some of my clients and stuff too, because I feel like it's kind of incognito is like being able to like incorporate your senses, like your sense of touch, or like your motor sense. And one for me is like, if I'm coming up, if I like can feel myself going into like a more sympathetic response. And I either want the sympathetic response.
And then I want to like come back to a neutral space, or I want to stay like really centered in the sympathetic response. I literally do like a breath to touch with my fingers. So it's like an inhale and I touch the, the pointer finger, exhale, touch the next finger, inhale, touch the next finger, exhale, touch the next finger. And it just helps really keep me in like an intentional, centered, grounded sympathetic response, instead of that, like, like space.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Do you watch your fingers? I'm just curious, do you close focal attention at that time?
Kristina Hoyer
It depends on where I'm at. And what's kind of going on around me if it's something that like I'm in front of people, I don't want them to know that I'm like, secretly freaking out right? Like that. It's just down by my side, and I'm not looking at it. But if I am like, preemptively, or if I'm just in a space where I can, like literally kind of pull back then I do watch it. I feel like though the watching it, it helps me so much more than when I'm not able to when I was wondering Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Because that's like, that helps. Because then when your parasympathetic is more like wide field of view, right? And then sympathetic is like bringing it more into like that acute, closer point. Point of vision. Okay. Yeah, so that's like, those two helped me a lot when it comes to either like staying focused in acute responses, or when it's like coming down from it. It's like, really, the breath helps me come back to my body. And when I'm when I'm in my body, and like I really feel like that like, all right, all I can feel all of my limbs, right, I can feel like my entire body. I'm feeling really grounded and I feel like calm again.
That is usually brought on by like, Okay, let's do some nasal breathing. Let's do some box breathing some longer slow. Exhales those really helped me come back. And then like the finger touch is like my that's like that's my all time favorite.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Cool. That's awesome. Any other things you found that are helpful?
Kristina Hoyer
Um, let's see when it comes down Well, I mean cold water immersion is awesome. Like if you're coming off of something like you went to go skydiving and you want to and like not have an adrenaline rush for like 48 hours you come back to the body like quicker after I have used that or even just like cold water on the eyes like if you not able to get into like a whole cold shower or whatever like that cold water on the Facebook water on the eyes.
Yeah, I probably say those are like my own, most personally used to type of techniques to like, kind of come back to center and like really stay here. I used to be like a big believer in like, like mantras and like inner conversations and things like that. But I've kind of pulled away from that a little bit more because the I have, as of right now favor more on like the physiologic changes to help influence the actual like, what's actually happening in the body.
And then letting the mind follow afterwards versus leading with the mind and then hoping like, that influences the body. Just because I've seen more to be more effective not only for myself, but for like other like with clients and stuff I've worked with. And I I've read a couple of studies to where like you, I think you have to have like a, it's like 60% or greater self security before mantras or anything like that have helped anyways, I'll have to find the paper but it was like wild. I was like, Okay, this makes sense. Weiss for some people, those type of internal dialogue, affirmations don't really change much for you. And it's got to be more of like that physical, actual changes with the body to help clear out some of the stuff with the mind. And then once there's more room made, then there's like room to breathe, essentially.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, yeah, I think that's, to me, kind of like the next level. There's More people talking about this. My friend, Dr. Lisa has talked about this. And there's a book I did with a caneta Jennifer Hynes. There's a podcast on here talking about mental health and movement. And I think we're getting more data now to show that you've gotten some, quote, mind issue or thing you're trying to change, then, yeah, you can probably change it with your mind. But maybe you need to do some something body related and vice versa. Yeah, as I remember some of the training I did and be activated. I'm Doug Hill saying that the mind is in the body and the body is in the mind. Yeah, you can go all the way back, you know, to scientists, philosophers have been trying to figure out what is consciousness? How was your brain related to your body? And is it an embodiment? Or are they separate?
And I think, unfortunately, science because how it's been siloed has kind of split those areas apart, right? So there's the neurology department. And then there's the physiology and Exercise Physiology. And they're all in their own little silos. And now we're trying to get, I think, better at figuring out what is it for you as a human organism, because as your client, you're working with clients, then it's the entire person that's sitting in front of me, like maybe they have something physical going on. So maybe it is their mindset that's screwing them up, right? Or they can't get out of their own head. So maybe they need something physical, you know, to do, obviously, we're not trying to treat any disease or anything, but just getting them moving forward towards their goals.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, it's interesting that like, we're kind of trying to come full circle to because I remember when I like, first started becoming even just remotely interested in this world as like an adult. And I was like, it was seriously so bothersome for me that like the mind and the body are in like separate compartments. And I'm just like, I don't understand, right, like we, it's all in one way. And this is, this is my weird term. So that's, it's all in one skin suit, right? We're all big ol thing, skin.
And all of this is connected, like all of it like this, this brain helps guide all of the functioning going on all through here. And I just think it's like, I remember, I was so upset about it. But then at the same time, I have grown into an understanding in the sense that like, there's so much, there's so much like, when you're looking at the science and the medicine and the research and the discoveries and just everything that we have stumbled upon, and like the universe that lives inside of here.
And so in a sense, I can understand it, because it's like one lifetime, and one human being isn't going to be able to like, completely conceptualize the intricacies of an entire human being in physiology and kinesiology and neurology and organic chemistry and like all of the things that can go on. So I think divide and conquer was essentially the concept.
But now we like do we instead we divided and we kind of separated and we disintegrated the body. And so now it's like how can we all come back together? And like put like self egos aside or like a lens that like this modality is the only best modality ever to walk the planet Earth? And like how can we come together and integrate as practitioners to like, help human beings be more integrated beings?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, because I think there's the fee, we believe the human body is survival based, then there has to be multiple redundant systems. And if that's true, then my bias is that there has to be multiple inroads to make change, right? Because if if there was only one thing that created a huge change, then everybody would agree on the one thing, right, but we don't and for different people, different states, depending on what they go have going on, maybe even their thoughts about what they believe in certain therapies or whatever.
Yeah, there's gonna be things that are probably more efficacious than other things, for sure. But I think it's kind of egotistical for people to say that only this thing works, and everyone needs to do exactly this thing, which has been, you know, usually proven wrong, right, we can still find things that are more efficacious. But now that you're ever gonna get it down to it's just this one thing. And that's what everybody has to do.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, yeah. I tend to encourage people to shy away from the this is the only way type of individuals just because it's a guy most of the time because I've been there too, right. I feel like anyone who's been in the health and wellness or medical industry, like you get to a point where like, this is the way I know, like I know and I want everyone to try it because I want everyone to feel better and I just know this is it.
And then once you get past that point, then you get into the world of I'm never going to know everything and most of the time what I know will probably be wrong in like the next one or two years, like, and it's just like you, there's so much that you know, you don't know. And so then you just do the best of what you have. And I left like, I think a challenge with humanity across the board is like we always want like a finality of like a concept or finality of an answer or a finality of a direction.
And with the human body, there's always going to be things that change, like this year, for the next three years or whatever, like this might be the modality that works really, really well for your body. And then like it might change, one day, your body might change. And then all of a sudden, that one that that one guy said was the answer to everything. Now that one's your answer for like, six months, you know? So it's like this almost this need for, we need an answer. We need answers. It's like how we have become as advanced as we are, and why we're always asking the question of like, what are we doing here?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, no. Yeah. And I think that's the, both the art and the science, right? Because research is only like, my little phrases I like is, research will give you kind of the general direction, but research will give you the answer. Because most people only care about like an n of one answer, right? I mean, I get a client sit in front of me, and we could do something and they get a crazy result and then be like, Oh, well, here's 17 studies, it says that shouldn't have happened. Like, they don't give a shit about any of those studies.
They're like it happened, you know? You could argue that could be a placebo, who knows? Right? And I've gotten into some will say discussions online, where I'm like, because they're opposites, right? So if I'm designing a research study, I want to have a placebo group, I want it to be randomized. I want to do all these things, to have it be statistically significant. We're trying to figure out what we can know just a tiny part, right?
But trying to disprove something, if I'm working as a clinician or a trainer said, I'm trying to do the exact opposite of that. I placebo the shit out of people. Yeah, as long as I know, it's not going to make it any worse. Right? I know, there's not a negative downside to it. Because the reality is, they care about the result. And that's what you're getting paid for as a result. Now, again, that can go too far. And people can do all sorts of wacky stuff. And that's a whole separate discussion in and of itself. But at the end of the day, like what are you using as your measuring stick? Right?
Were you trying to do a research study and you just didn't have it properly controlled, then it's a bad research study, right? Or it's not at the same level of efficaciousness. But I'd argue if you're like clinician, and you're not trying to do everything you can to help the person in front of you. Again, making sure you're within your scope of practice, you're not doing things that are going to make them worse or taking, you know, excessively high risks.
Yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's kind of what you're supposed to do. Right? Because I was interesting. I, I hung out with some pretty advanced body workers in the past. And some of them were were amazing. Like, you'd have a therapy session with him. You're like, holy crap, that was amazing. Like, why did you do this one thing? And many of them are like, I don't know, like, you don't know. Like, you have no idea like, no, like,
Do you have any theoretical things about what might happen? And some are like, No, I just felt like this is a sign of this or that. Right? It was, it's like, getting a Michael Jordan as a coach. Right? You're so unconsciously competent, that he probably would be a very bad coach. Yeah, cuz he probably doesn't remember what it was like to not be good. Right? Like some of the best athletes are horrible coaches. Yeah. Right. Because you just do this one thing, like, No, I'm, the one thing doesn't work for me. Right. And some of the coaches are also not the best athletes either, right?
But they're able to get people at a much better level, because they can see what's going on, they can give them the next drill to get them to do the next level. So I think a lot of times we conflate those two, right? That, oh, this person can deadlift, you know, 700 pounds, they must be a great coach. They might be but they might not be right doesn't automatically mean that they can teach somebody else how to do that, beyond themselves.
Kristina Hoyer
Being able to break that down to is like like, because if you've put in like so many so many so many reps, right? And then you've moved through it for your own individual body and your own individual like techniques. And then being able to reverse engineer that is like it's like a skill set. I feel like it's like a capability that you have mentally or that you've developed maybe intentionally mentally to because I feel like for a lot of either pro professional athletes of any any sport really or even like any skill, they maybe didn't start off with the intention of like ever coaching. So
Dr. Mike T Nelson
that wasn't their job, right? I don't think Michael Jordan ever wanted to be a coach. He's like, I want to be the best basketball player. So we're what he wanted to do. 100% That's by far like the best path
Kristina Hoyer
Yes, by far the best. Yeah, you did it for sure.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I interrupted you there.
Kristina Hoyer
I completely agree with you. Like, it's just they never had the intention of it. So it's like when you, you didn't he didn't have to cultivate the awareness around like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing when you do that? They just like no, I asked my body to do it. And I did a million reps of it, and perfected and wiggled out all of the stuff that wasn't working. And I just threw it away. It's like, when you brain dump after like, a, an exam that you don't care about, right? Like, I did it, I got a and all the information is in the trash. And I don't know how I got there, because I'm not intending to teach somebody about this, you know, versus if you're like, Alright, I'm gonna have to teach somebody about everything I'm taking this exam on after I take this exam. So I'm gonna, like really learn that information. And like, keep it in there until I teach somebody.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Which is why like, when I taught more college students, I always like teaching grad students more than undergrads, because the grad students always had the realization of like, holy shit, I'm going to have to know this, because I'm going to go off to get a job, then someone's going to expect me to know this.
Right? So they're almost more willing to learn stuff, not just pass an exam, or like, you know, statics or freshmen, you know, sophomore class that the question all the time is, is this going to be on the exam, and that used to just drive me insane, as I understand it, because a lot of professors don't set stuff up, they put things that they've never talked about on the exam. So I understand why it's a question.
And when I was in that state, that was my first question all the time. But, yeah, it's hard to get people past that, because they're just thinking, I just need to get a good grade. Now I need to learn the material. Right? And those things are not always the same thing. Right? I mean, there's classes, I've gotten an A and then I couldn't tell you squat about any of it right now. I probably couldn't tell you two days after the final exam, either.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah. That's like undergrad have was like, cuz I just recently finished my undergraduate last year. And going from like, even just like military setting to like actually, like going through and undergraduate to it was just really interesting. Because there are, it's it is, I don't want to say this in a bad way. But I feel like it's almost like the more passive part of your, like, higher education experience, because you're just like,
Oh, you're just gonna go get this degree, like, it's like your ticket to the playground, right? Like, you can either like, you have to go get this degree. So you can like, get access to all these other jobs, or you have to get this degree so that you can have access to like a higher education that you want to be moving towards. And like, hopefully get some exposure to what you really want to get like a masters or PhD in. But it was always really interesting to me just like because I love learning. I'm like obsessed with it. Like I have to put like a limit on myself. For like, you're only allowed to like take this many certifications or like this any courses. But it was always really interesting. Just like how many people are moving passively through like the educational experience?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Do you have a few more minutes? Or what's your hard stop for me? Do
Kristina Hoyer
I have plenty of time I got to get my my hard hard stop would be like one o'clock. So okay.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
But yeah, I was gonna ask you about if you want to just share. And again, we can cut this part out if you don't want about the first time we met, you was down at our wonderful friend, Dr. Ben houses place down in Costa Rica. And it was awesome to see so many people from different walks of life trainers who wanted to speak in about education, want to learn more, and you know, train and do everything. And then we ended up doing some RPR on you if you wanted to talk about how that went? I would love to Absolutely. Because I do think it does relate into kind of transitions and things that everyone myself included always kind of subconscious things that people can carry forward to.
Kristina Hoyer
Yes, 100%. So I'll give kind of like a little bit of a mini very fast background on what got me there. So I ended up getting medically discharged from the Navy for what they call a chronic pelvic pain condition. Very broad spectrum. It was undiagnosed and just kind of was this mystery.
And I think the hardest part about that was not only was I going through this transition of leaving the service, but now I was leaving the service not on my own accord. And I was having to say goodbye to this idea of this like fully, wildly intense, athletic like super driven, no pain body that I had for most of my life up to that point and I couldn't I had no answers. I had absolutely no answers and For long for a period of time, they're like as I was getting discharged from the service, and for a little while after, like, my biggest accomplishment everyday was like, getting out of bed and like going to eat food. Like if you can get out of bed today, and you can make it to the kitchen. You did it, right. And it's just so painful.
I spent so many nights awake, just enduring, crazy stuff. And so I made it to the Costa Rica retreat, because I had started this coaching business. And I was kinda like this little baby coach. He was like, I want to teach nutrition.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
That's all, they all talk to you. Yeah. I want to help everyone
Kristina Hoyer
with everything. So I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I was so nervous, right, like you would go, I'm going down to Costa Rica to meet these people who have been in this field for so long to present this research, and this whole research project and all these things. And I'm like, going through this whole time in my life where I was like, I don't even know who I am, like, I don't know who I am. I don't know what I'm doing. I have this insane amount of pain in my body that will not move, it will not change. Like it's there every day. And so I think we were on like the fourth day, fourth or fifth day. And so I have gotten to watch you present and like a bunch of other people presented setpoint. And so you had talked about RPR and I had heard a couple other people talk about it and seeing a couple of sessions.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
And you weren't completely scared away. So that's a good thing.
Kristina Hoyer
I was like, so stoked on it. Because I was like, I'm kind of like a I mean, I'm a pain in gain type of gal, right? I have been most of my life. And so I was like, Wow, this looks like it's really miserable. It's so it's like we're this dry. And that I remember we went through like the whole session. And then you went to the release my right DMO process.
And I literally, really so much like so much emotion came up. Like I it was one of those moments where you're just like, overwhelmed by it. Like there was no vision No, like, there's nothing that came to indicate why it would be there. Right. And up to this point, it had been almost two years of consistent, intense pain I was on Tramadol I had been taking like regularly taking narcotics, and like the painless, it's just would never go away, it would never change.
And that night after RPR was the first night in two years I had ever I had been pain free, like completely pain free. And like, I was like, I remember laying awake at night and being like, what is what is happening and I cried of joy, of course. And that to me is like it just insane because it up to that point, nothing could influence it. And I had tried everything right, like every swear by a modality, right and gone through all the scans gone through all the tests gone through all the things. And so to have it move that to me was kind of like the the day that the dam was blown up. Right.
And like it was the only thing that could remove that dam. And so now ever since then, it's been this really amazing journey. It's been about two years. I think since then. Yeah. It's been this really cool journey of like, now I'm in this really deep like communication with my body where I still have the pain. But it's not every day. It's not insanely like just clenching my life with its jaws of misery. Like I have room to breathe. And I have learned so many more techniques and like tools to just like keep more regulated. Right? And it was that that break in the pain, right?
Like that change in the nervous system, like it needed something to reset, and to release. And I think a lot of it stems from or stemmed from, like my insatiable need for just high speed for most of my life. And the lack of room for anything other than that, and I just kept storing every experience that I ever had in my body. Because I was like, Oh, that's good, like, keep going. It's fine. Yeah, we'll just put that one in here. or what but yeah. And so yeah, it was I mean, I don't think I'll ever have a like lat I don't think that memory will ever become uncolored. Like, it's just so bright and vibrant and like I can remember it like it was like last week. It was crazy.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I remember you held Jodi's hand for about, like 15 minutes to
Kristina Hoyer
Jodi is the best. It's like, so she is the most perfect person to be in those situations with you. Yes.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Yeah. And I think for, for people listening to like, you know, what do you have as a call on new contextual pain, meaning, nothing makes it better. Nothing paradoxically makes it worse, right? You're like, Oh, my God, how could it get any worse? Yeah, you have almost no oscillations, there's no variability in it. And so people I've worked with, like, I've had a good friends who've had that lot of military people. And it's just hard to watch.
And then where I get super worried about them is once they reach that point where they, they feel like they're out of options, right. And I saw a guy kind of go through this with the therapist, he's working with saying, you know, they're starting to talk about like, weird experimental procedures, like highly invasive stuff. And to see like, kind of the light kind of drain out of his eyes of like, this is the end. I was like, Oh, shit, you know, yeah, it's great that he decided, okay, I'm either gonna kill myself, or I'm gonna figure this out on my own, I'm not gonna rely on anybody else. And, you know, luckily, he was able to get some stuff figured out.
But to be there in the room is that's like happening, not knowing what direction the person is gonna go. It's just like hole. And I get it like, because your brain is thinking. I don't know what else to try. Like, I've tried all this stuff. Yeah, doesn't make it better, doesn't make it worse. So that's always one of the questions I ask people is like, does anything modify it, because if you can find something that modifies it, then not only do you have a little bit of leverage, you kind of give the person hope you kind of a direction to go. But I get super worried about people once, their perception is I don't have any more leverage, I'm kind of out and I don't know what to do. And the pain is still there. You know, it's like, that's just so scary.
Kristina Hoyer
It is. It's really scary. And like, coming, you know, coming from my own story, right. It's the I think the hardest part about I know, for me, right speaking my own experience, is like, because I still live with it, right? Like, it's like at this point, it's like, oh, yeah, that's my homie like, you know, and, like, I can't even really put in, like, I can't measure how many moments it usually happens at night, because the world is asleep. And it's more acceptable to be like awake at 2am. And no one sees you when you're having these moments, right.
And I can't tell you how many times I've like been sitting in the bathroom, like just literally crying my eyes out, like I have nothing left. I have nothing left. I have no other stone to on turn, like to turn, you know. And it's every almost every time after those moments, right? Like you said, you either have to make the decision to kill yourself, or make the decision to keep taking this into your own hands and move forward. Right? Like, there are so many modalities out there so many. And I over and over again have that I've ran out of ideas.
And every time I thought I've left I made it to the end of the road. There was more road, I just didn't know yet. And I didn't know someone to show me something else. And like the biggest thing that's made the like the world of a difference for me is having people in a community around me that believe i can get better. And really believe I can get better because when I when I got discharged, this is like one of my biggest things with the the military medical system and the whole, like medical discharge space is the doctors that were discharging me didn't believe I would get better.
And literally like, like there was like, Oh yeah, you'll have this for the rest of your life. Like you will never ever, ever, ever feel good again. And if anything, it's like I literally got told it was my fault that I was. Yep. And then they were you know, trying to throw out all crazy stuff. Like she literally told me that I should get a hysterectomy. I was like, Oh, wow, I'm pretty sure that you guys already figured out that there's nothing wrong with that. Right? Why would that be a good one? There's
Dr. Mike T Nelson
nothing wrong with it.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, and then like did a laparoscopic laparoscopy to just like kind of look around in there and it's just a lot of invasive stuff. And I like I've enjoyed arsenite ran into who has an invisible, like, pain, right? An invisible condition. Like, no matter how dark and heavy some of the days can get, like, you cannot stop hoping that there's something more. Because there's been more space and room to breathe in my life than ever before. And if I would have given up a long time ago, I would have never been able to like do anything like travel come and see you and Jody Yeah. Like, go to Costa Rica, like, do any of that stuff. Like, that was all so hard for me. And now it's like, no, I can just like, go on vacation or go on a trip, or go on a four hour road trip and sit down and not feel like I'm gonna be like, in so much pain for two weeks, you know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. And I think those expectations are also huge if you know, medical people are listening. You know, another good buddy of mine got discharged from the military, he in Iraq got hit over the back of the head that smashed in the side of his skull, like I saw his X rays, like the whole part of his back of his head was imploded. And then he fell out of the helicopter on his back two stories up. So when he got out of the military, he did a lot of stuff to be more functional.
So paradoxically, he didn't get a lot of medical pay or anything from him, because he was considered too functional to, you know, sort of qualify for anything, but he would have just crushing headaches, you know, complain about it. I remember being in some training classes with him, just looking at him in the quarter, lying down with his hoodie pulled over and looking like as white as the wall behind him. Wow, you're just like, holy crap. You know, and he, you know, would go to the military at the time isn't many years ago. Hopefully, it's getting better. Yeah, yeah.
Here's your trash bag full of opiates, fun. And he's like, I don't want to do that. He's like, that is like for him. And again, it's a personal choice. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it. But for him, he's like, that's like, the last of the last options, because he's like, I can't function. He's like, I can't do anything on him. It's like the side effects were, you know, horrible. Yeah. But he went on vacation to a place that had much lower atmospheric pressure. And all of a sudden, he had like, a couple hours where he didn't have headaches, and this headache started getting better. What? Yeah, and, you know, could have been environment could have been changing location. Who knows.
So we ended up moving to a different location. And that kind of allowed him kind of like you were saying, the, the dam, that kind of open like that, just that small amount of leverage combined with, you know, was very knowledgeable about what was going on, you know, fast forward, you still have some days where he has, you know, some headaches here and there. But, you know, nothing, you know, like it was before. And it's, yeah, it's so hard to see people going through that, because I would imagine that in that state, like, your brain is almost incapable of thinking of the options. Right now, if anyone has had like, really, really high amounts of pain, like, it's very hard to think your way or even move your way out of it at that point, right.
Because you can't really focus you can't really think, you know, very clear. So I think having, you know, the people, they can help with whatever modality it is, and I also then think that destroying the narrative then of, I'm always going to have pain. Yeah, like in your case, like my thought pattern was, you're like, Oh, my God, I have a few hours last night of no pain. I was like, awesome. In my head, I'm even thinking that even if you went back to having pain at a 10 out of 10. It's such a monumental win. Yeah, that narrative now is not true. Yeah, narrative of I will always have pain, the rest of my life is 100%. Not true.
So even if it took many months, or you know, obviously, a lot of the work that you've done, I think there's something really powerful about discrediting what you've been told is supposed to be true. I think that's even worse. When you've had MRIs, you've had laparoscopic, you've had all these medical procedures. Mechanically, everybody's telling you you should be fine, but really not. Right? I think that kind of sets up this internal narrative of like, am I batshit? Crazy? What am I doing? Am I bonkers? Like there's supposed to be nothing wrong with me, but I have this huge amount of pain. That's just horrible.
Kristina Hoyer
Yes, yeah. 100% is in that man. Like if I can tell any aspiring doctor or even like just anyone in working in this field, really like anyone who is directly working with individuals on the internals of like, how their body works and feels like those absolutes even just saying that one time to somebody who is already like lower on their fuel of hope left, right, like that really settles into the body and like if I wouldn't have gotten that break in pain after RPR session, like it is, like you said, when I'm in those nights, I cannot think of anything else. Yeah, I am literally sitting there.
And I'm like, there is no other option, like I have not a single one more. And it's creating not mobility and creating not at least the small small whisper of like, I have had a moment without it. So if I can have one a moment without it, that means there is potential for more moments without it. Right? Right. So like that dialogue from medical professionals, or even just health and wellness professionals is so vital. And then like, also, like reaffirming that, like their lived experience is their lived experience, whether or not an X rays shows it and MRI shows it.
And ultrasound shows it like if you are experiencing pain in your body, it is valid. It is real. It is not seen by anyone else, but it is known for you. And like nobody else needs to tell you. It's real. It's real. So let's figure out how we can move it for you together, even though I don't feel it. You know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. And I always go back to the, the feeling is believing. Right? So, you know, before we had the RPR session, I probably could have tried to talk to you about all this and you'd be like, Screw off whatever. Right? You know, like you wouldn't be You were very nice person, you would listen. But subconsciously, it's very hard when you get to a certain point to believe anything else. Right. But once you actually feel the change that happens.
There's a I think that sometimes that's why you know, psilocybin with therapy for quitting smoking, and some of these other plant medicines, etc, are so profound and opened up kind of a window of change. Because if anyone's ever done them, like you have the most like real feelings that you've ever had about things. I know that sounds very bizarre, but it's hard to come out of that situation and be like, Oh, wow, like you, you felt what it felt like to be wherever you were. Right.
So I think to have this sensation of not having pain, that that is something that 100% happened, right? You can't think your way out of that it didn't happen because it did. And then the narrative is no longer true, which then allows you to kind of you know, build forward from there.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, yeah, having that. Almost like the I actually saw the grass was greener moment, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I got to peek over the wall. I get to, like, chip away at the wall. It's yeah, it's been. I mean, that was seriously it was like the pivot point, the moment where it all got to, like, shift into something new.
Because I was like, man, if this is my life, like I've, I've recently had a dialogue with somebody that literally mirrored back a conversation to me that I had with myself, like, uh, like, three years ago. And they were like, if I'm gonna feel like this forever, like, I don't want to think I want to live past like, 40. And I remember saying to myself, I was like, man, if I'm like this at like, 20 How old was I 26 say, there's police officers driving by just noise. Um, I think I was like, 26, I was like, Man, if I am gonna are 27 If I'm gonna live like this forever. And this is like how I feel. And everyone who's older than me, tells me it just gets worse for me. Like, you get more achy or whatever.
Then like, how am I supposed to keep going like, and then I had this really weird reverse that were like, most people are like, you know, you want to live this long, healthy life to like, 90, I was like, what if I do live fell 90 And like, you know, natural causes take me. So it's been like such an interesting journey. But I'm, I'm really like, now that I'm in this space, I'm in. Like, it's afforded me the opportunity to learn so much about these different modalities. And like, I've had to try a lot like I've really, I mean, I've knocked on almost every door that I currently know, right until more roads shows up.
But it's cool, because it's like, there's so many modalities out there that like people don't necessarily understand like, like RPR, right, yeah. And like, once you get into the point where you're, you're ready and willing to do anything to help yourself move into a better space. That's kind of when you find things like RPR or where you actually go try like some of the more outside of the norm modalities. But it would be really awesome if people could not get to the end of the road mentality where they like, oh, I will try anything before they try things like that is if I could have like, been in that space earlier. That many, many nights avoided.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Yeah, and do your credit, like you still took action, you went down to Costa Rica to be with a bunch of weirdos and hanging out in the middle of jungle not knowing what the hell was gonna go on, you know, give a presentation to, you know a bunch of other more weirdos and you know, most people would not have done that, you know. And so when I first met you, I, I would have never thought you had that much level of pain like that.
Like your disposition didn't tell me you had a lot of pain. But it's kind of a weird thing that I look for in people, right? Is it? If they're at that point, did they think they can get better? And some people maybe not so worth trying? But my impression was that you were at the stage where you were still willing to keep trying things, which I think is the point that people that are at that point, listening to it, obviously, get professional help.
But I can almost virtually guarantee like when you said you haven't tried everything. And just because all the other stuff hasn't worked doesn't mean the next thing won't work, right? It just means it's like the Edison thing with the light bulb. I was like, Oh, I had like 100 or 1000 experiments that just said, Oh, this wasn't the right one. Yeah, you didn't think that it's not gonna happen? It's not impossible. It just hasn't happened yet. So odds are there's something out there that can probably even if it just moves the needle a little bit that allows you that leverage to do kind of the the upward assessed ascension instead of the downward spiral. Now you can start chipping away at that and start making progress in a better direction.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, my disposition is innate. My dad calls me sunshine. So I've always been very, like, I mean, my my thought process around it when like, the pain was the most severe is always like, and this might not be hit the healthiest for any, like some professional psychologist listening. But my thought process around it was always like, just because I'm suffering doesn't mean that the people around me need to see my suffering.
Because a lot of the time that causes suffering for others, right? Like, it's not easy to watch somebody else suffer. And just be like, oh, yeah, okay, cool, like Rock on, I'm gonna, like keep having a great day. And so it's like, even though my internal world feels heavy and dark, if I continue to embody that, then it's just going to make the internal world heavier and darker. Versus if I can, like, at least still bring like some of that light and not fun and that laughter and excitement externally, then it can help me endure what's going on in here without bringing the rest of my world into like the, the shade or the cloudiness of what's going on.
But one thing that did change for me a lot with that, from when I first was like, kind of starting to experience this to like where I am now, is I really like for anyone who is going through anything like this or knows anyone going through anything like this, it has made all the difference for me to have at least one person that will sit with me, and knows that the inner world is real for me will validate it. Because when I kept it all to myself, it made me feel even crazier, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, no one believes me. No one, no one even knows that's going on for you. Like they can't believe you unless they know. And at least you give them a chance to like, believe you and support you. And so that has been such a huge thing for me to just like, have somebody see my lived experience? And believe me in it and sit with me in it.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Yeah. And I was fortunate when we met like I had some other people I had worked with who had kind of similar situations. One of them when we were down, down to trip in Baja, and fly up one of the guys who was down there because he had called in and said, you know, we're supposed to do a paragliding lesson. He's like, Oh, I can't because my back hurts. And what's the data come over?
We'll do some stuff work on music. Oh, my back feels so much better. So he calls the guy is the guy could do my lesson now. He's like, What the hell happened to you like you just called and canceled like three hours ago. It was like I worked on this crazy guy. And he did some other stuff. And so instructor calls this other person who was down there who she had some back pain and was like working on her laptop, like laying on her back for like six weeks or something. Geez, so
So I talked to her on the phone and my first thought was like, I don't know, like, you know, because you always wonder like, you know, what's going on? Are they going to be receptive to this? I don't know this person. It's referral from somebody else. They don't know me. Yeah, you just wonder how the interaction is gonna go and she's like, okay, and I said, I can't make any promises. I said, we'll, we'll try some stuff, it's probably gonna be really painful. If it helps, it helps. I said, I can guarantee you, it's probably not gonna make you any worse than what you were before. She's like, Alright, great, we'll try it.
So she was standing into place, just down the road. And in love and Tanya, there's a lot of outdoor places, there's a little outdoor kitchen and there's this like folding table there. Put her up on the folding table as this like, weird, surreal like environment because you can overlook the ocean there. And there's a guy hanging out on this couch that these people just wheeled into dropped outside because the rain there. It's like a desert. There's like stuff all outside.
And he's just sitting there like trying to read his book while we're doing the session, which is, you know, pretty painful. Yeah. Most of her issues was her ribcage similar to you, like most people just super stuck. It's worked on her for about two hours. She gets up and walks around, like doesn't have any pain. She's like, What is this? This is so crazy. Wow, I was on the couch reading is this like looking over going like what is going on over there. So we end up going out to one of the bars there that night. And she shows up at the bar, she comes up gives me this big hug. And she's like, Oh, thank you so much.
And I was like, What the hell happened, you know, to her, and referring me back to like three other people that I went with are like, Oh, I got this thing over here. I need help with the wild. But similar type circumstance, she had tried a whole bunch of other stuff. She had gone down there to go kiteboarding she had worked online, but she couldn't work. She could barely, you know, type of her laptop above her. And yeah, so it's, it's just crazy sometimes how I don't know what inputs, I don't know exactly what was beneficial. But the end result was it was better. Yeah, right.
And so I always think of that in terms of just trying something that will probably help. And again, there's other than some pain, there's doesn't appear to be as much of a downside with it either. You know, so the good part about that is when I had the conversation with you, I was like, Well, I think in your head, like you can't really predict outcomes, but you're like, Well, I worked for that person. And I, you know, worked on people for like three years before and you know, sometimes you just see crazy stuff, and doesn't always work.
You know, but the vast majority of the time, it was like, wow, that, that seems to help. So thank you for doing the doing it and your results and just being willing to try it too. So I appreciate it. And it's one of those, they always think back on of course, you try to think back on more of the positive when things you know, work out. And so sometimes I even think of your particular case when I'm working on someone and like going Hmm, well, I don't know, maybe this maybe this is a thing. It's definitely happened many times in the past, not all the time.
I think just having that experience to refer back on even if that was one of only a handful things that I ever do that helped someone like, more than worth all the education, the time and everything else that went into it not to just, you know, to kind of have that that experience and just see what's possible to
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, it's um, it's I mean, I joke with people that this is definitely not it's definitely not really actually joke, but I was at the point where I was literally, like, if I go to a doctor, and they're like, if you just stabbed this leg was everything better. I was like, Bring it on. Yeah, whatever it takes. And especially to like being able to have like that social affirmation and and like other people had gone through it. And, and it was just like, like, that's, that is one thing with like, trying different modalities that I encourage a lot of people with is like, like you, like you said, right?
That risk versus reward factor? Like what are the chances that this is going to make you better? And what are the chances that this is going to make you worse? Like, is there a danger factor to it, and it's kind of like, if you go and you like I encourage people all the time, like if you're looking to go to a new practitioner and you feel uncomfortable about it, ask them if you can just come meet them, like do a meet and greet interview, like you can ask them about the modality you can ask them about themselves, you can really get a good feel for them.
Because I've gone to people before that I ended up not liking I didn't think that they did a great job with their treatment or anything like that. And I got zero results. And then I go to like a different practitioner of the same modality and it like changes everything. Totally. So it's like there's so much like there's a there's a whole iceberg beneath the surface, when it comes to these types of modalities. And it's like I think for you and Jodi with RPR like you provide this amazing safe space where it's literally at least like for me I can identify it as a safe space. Because like I feel complete even though it's painful and it's gonna suck you're always Sue For honest about it, you're like, This is gonna be really brutal, really bad.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
And first thing you can do in that situation is lie to someone, like they're gonna know, in five seconds, you like, bastard,
Kristina Hoyer
you told me this is going to be fine, and it's fine. And it's like, it's a one random thing surface from the body, like it's a, it's a perfectly safe space to like, let it all move through you and to breathe through it and let it come up. And then like, move forward. And the other really cool thing that I like, really value about, like the space you guys have created.
And the way that you move through it is like, I know, I've always been really private about my inner world, right? Like, it's very scary for me to show or feel like a big emotion in front of people besides like big amounts of happiness, right? If it's right, other types of feelings, I get really scared to show.
Because sometimes people make it like this super big deal that you're like, showing this emotion. And the really cool thing that I like get to experience with you guys is like it is it just is and you're moving through it. And the you let it pass and you're safe to do it. And you're okay. And then when you're ready, then you move forward. And it's not like, oh, this huge thing that like has to be, like, held on to and like obsessed about anything. And it's just like, Nope, it came up and move through you. And now we're gonna move on when you're ready. And it's like, that makes a huge difference, in my opinion.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, that's one thing I tried to get across when teaching either be activated or RPR. I do teach for RPR. So RPR is generally where people are working on themselves be activated as Johnny and where you're working on someone else. But so I'm teaching RPR even when people are working on themselves, I tried to tell the people that if other things are coming up, just I got this from Tom Meyers, just just be the good neighbor, just just reassure him, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna pass if they want to talk about it, great, you're not there to diagnose it, you're not telling them any life lessons or anything, you're just there to listen and be empathetic and create and hold a safe space for them.
But if you lose your shit in the middle of that, it's not going to end at all, I mean, like, so I started seeing someone, you can see things kind of, you know, come up, because it is a very traumatic thing that you're kind of going through again, there's definitely a stress response associated with it. And if you're as a practitioner, you're not comfortable with it, then don't go there. And then make sure that you can still kind of hold that space, because you're the only thing that's kind of in a weird way, sort of tethering them at that, at that point.
Yeah, because they're just looking for guidance from you, you don't even have to do anything, you're not trying to diagnose anything, you're just there, hey, it's gonna pass, it always passes. You know, whatever response they have is completely appropriate. I've seen all sorts of crazy shifts, you know, and it's okay. And usually, I've noticed that people like yourself that can, that are brave enough to let it go. Like, they generally do a lot better. And some people are just not ready at that point. That's totally fine. There's no right or wrong associated with it at all. But just a caveat, if practitioners are listening,
Kristina Hoyer
is 100%. And like learning how to hold that space of neutrality, I think, as a practitioner, is I know, for me, it was like a skill set, I had to develop over time being exposed to like, those deeper moments of emotion with people and being able to, like really still, like, be there, like the Good Neighbor mentality.
And like, not, like, I don't want to cry, like you can't cry right now. Like they're crying. You can't cry right now. Like, this is like not your pain, like you get to be like that, like that CO regulator, like they get to regulate to like, okay, there is space of safety, and there is space of like, I am going to be okay, so I'm just gonna, like, be here and moving through all my stuff. And they're gonna keep paddling the boat down the river. Why, like, do this thing and then I'll come back online soon.
Yeah. And it's like learning that was super cool. Because then it's like now that that higher voice in my head kind of gets to like CO regulate for me when I'm like, you know, having a day. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I also liked your point too, about. I mean, I've had some other therapies done that had been very painful. And some of them have been very effective, and some of them not really effective at all. And almost every time where it hasn't been very effective, there's this little voice in my head that's like, okay, it's painful, but just doesn't feel right. It just feels wrong.
Not that they did anything wrong. Not that the technique was inappropriate or anything like that. It just, I was surprised that there's a difference between it's painful, and it feels like we're going in the right direction, versus it's painful and we're going down the wrong path, wrong direction, wrong direction. I think people have just paying attention to that, that comes up and most of the time, like I can't even when it's happening, I can't give you any reason as to what it was like, I have no logical reason for it.
And yeah, you know, even when we did the first plant medicine trip we did in Costa Rica. I told God, I'm like, okay, so we walk in, and we meet, in this case, the shaman, the teacher, or whatever she wants to be referred to as she was great. I'm like, if I have this sensation, and that, it doesn't feel right. I'm like, here's all my money. Here's my cash I already paid already committed. Great. I'm out. Right. And everything went fine. And it was great. But I think the older I've gotten, just knowing that that may came up, and if it does, just at that moment, kind of trusting it and kind of moving forward from there.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, it's, I've heard this said a bunch of times that like, once you get to where you're like, at, like, You're like an old, weathered, been on the planet for a long time. Then you just stop caring, right? And you start doing things that just like really, like, if it doesn't feel good for you, you just leave like unapologetically. And I say this to people.
I'm like, my goal is to do that way before at like, Wait, yeah, like, I really like to do that. Like, yesterday, or like we like, you know, before my 30th birthday, or like, you know, move into that mentality earlier because, like, you were stepping into a space of like, man, like, when you go on a plant medicine trip with like, a, like a guide, or a shaman or a teacher, like that has to feel good. It has to in a peaceful doing it with Oh, yeah. Same with like any, any of these, like practitioners or people that are like really helping, same idea. Same idea. So it's like, if, if you don't feel good, like, worry about you, like worry about you.
And like, you can always articulate it out of love and intention. But like these people are putting their their energy and time and intention into your healing process. So if you're going to cultivate a team around you to help you heal, whether it's mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, like the people you choose to be on your team needs to be carefully cultivated. And that inner voice is going to guide like so much like, I've had so many moments where I literally have met somebody and been like, Oh, just kidding. I love my money. And I will see you again. Yeah.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, that's one of those lessons. I wish someone would have told me a lot earlier in life, too. You know, so because I always thought that I had to justify it logically, you know, and a lot of times, it's just the sensation. You can have a Malcolm Gladwell wrote about it in the book, blink, you know, like how you, you're making these like split second decisions.
And sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong, but then you always look at what is the risk reward. If I step away now, I'm probably not gonna get any reward, but I've minimized all downside, right? So like, one of my philosophies is, can I I'm okay, taking a potential exponential reward that is uncertain, as long as the risk is minimized, right? As long as I minimize the downside to what I believe in that situation is going to be the lowest, then whatever happens happens, worst case, nothing will happen. Right? And that's okay.
Right, versus some things have a potential very high reward and very high risk that's involved in them, too. Which I think that takes a lot more time and careful decision at that point, right. Because, like, even when we're doing Ayahuasca ceremony, I remember afterwards thinking, wow, that went well. wasn't easy. People had very different experiences that I got to see, my experience was super late. But I'm like, Holy shit, I could see how that could go sideways, like so many different ways. You know, so many ways. Yeah. Yeah.
So I think trusting that, that that person and the experience and the people you've done it with and we were lucky, we wanted people who had done it before in the same place and you know, that kind of stuff. And there are people who are very, you know, discerning so in a lot of that you're kind of leaning on, you know, other people's experience to combine with you know, what do you think your your intuition is also?
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, it's that social trust for sure. And the I love that book, blink by Malcolm Gladwell. That's still one of my favorites by him, by far, so good and just so well written, I feel like very digestible, like to all education levels and all exposure levels. But my version of that what you were talking about is like, what's the absolute worst case scenario? Like, what is the in it?
If that absolute worst case scenario happens, is that an acceptable level of risk for you? Right? And like, I play that game all the time with people like It's like in with myself, right? Where it's like, if you're having a moment of like, you're really stressing about this social situation, or this investment, or this appointment, or this, whatever, what's the absolute worst thing that could happen? And most of the time, it's like something that is so so tolerable when it comes to the wrist.
But it's like our brain is like, on loop trying to like find all these things that could potentially be wrong and isn't finding anything. So it's just like, winding you up, like, give yourself an actual baseline, like, what is the worst worst, worst thing that could happen to from this decision that you're so stressed about? And if you can accept that risks, then you should just let it go? Because you're gonna be okay.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, yeah. And I even found myself we went, I went to a conference this past weekend here in the cities. And it was great. I knew a lot of the speakers and everyone and it was awesome. But I, I also realized, like, going there, and for some reason i, because of the pandemic and being home and not speaking as much.
The weird part is, like, if I'm speaking at a conference, like, it doesn't bother me. But if I'm attending, I realized that it's walking into the threshold of a whole bunch of people that I don't necessarily know. Yeah, it's almost like a weird, irrational thing, especially being a lot more introverted. That, again, I had to kind of walk myself through what's the worst part, no one's gonna come after me. Nobody even knows who I am here. Like, there's nothing bad that's going to happen here. It's this irrational fear of just being around a bunch of people again. And then once you get kind of through that day, everything was fine.
And it was it was great. Yeah, no, but I also realized, I'm like, Oh, I used to have this like years ago, like the first conference, I went to, like, I was so nervous, I didn't want to be there. I felt like it was out of place. I threw up in the bathroom three times the first day because I was so like, distraught about the whole thing. And I realized that part of it was from that, but I had so many reps of doing it over the course of years, it got easier. And now having that gap that space from not having done it for a while, it's like you kind of almost go go back to kind of like the first anchoring thing, you know, and you're like, Oh,
Kristina Hoyer
I remember this in a far off distant past. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's crazy. How much the that like gap in our timeline of 2020, like created so much of like, this new weird social dynamic for a lot of people like, even for I feel like extroverts. It's like, a whole different dynamic to like, go back out into the world after like a whole year of not in the, you know, so I can't even imagine for full introverts because I'm only partially introverted. Okay. Yeah, I like have to recharge with alone time. And then I'm like, back into the world. So I don't know, how am I, I'm sure it would be a struggle. Like
Dr. Mike T Nelson
It's also fascinating and different for different people you would not expect, like I remember listening to Rob Zombie gave an interview, and it was on Joe Rogan, or what it was on. And they asked him, like, you know, well, this must be, you know, great. Like, you know, you're performing in front of 1000s of people, you've been doing this, you know, for decades, like you must not get nervous before performances.
And he's like, Nam, he's like, you get you get a little nervous, but it's manageable. And it's great. But he's like, I'm a huge introvert. Like, I don't even like this interview makes me feel uncomfortable. Wow. And he's like, why don't you perform in front of like, 1000s of people he's like, but when I'm doing that he's like, it doesn't feel like they're all individuals. It's just like one thing. And I've done it so many times, I'm just used to it, but like, to be in a small room with just a handful people is like, I feel much more uncomfortable about that.
Which to me was crazy, because you would think that someone who's performing and been doing it at a high level for many years, and for so many people at that level, that one on one would be nothing. And it was it was the inverse. Wow. Most like, some of the military people I've known who have been in there at a high level, come back and they're like going to the grocery store freak me the fuck out. Like the grocery store. But then you think about like, what their training was and what their level was. It's completely 180 degrees different from what they were so trained and had done for rep after rep after rep after rep and then just all of a sudden get dropped out of that into a different environment. You know, for us, it's it's sometimes always interesting how we can be the inverse of what we would expect it to be.
Kristina Hoyer
Yeah, I It's funny you mentioned the car Oh, sorry, sorry, because it was it's that always
Dr. Mike T Nelson
seems to be one that comes up with people that don't know what it is. But it's
Kristina Hoyer
so weird. I had never had an issue with it until and it's I think that the the really interesting part for for that I've observed with myself and with some of my friends who are veterans is that it doesn't really like unfold for you until it's like year two out of the service, right? Like your one year kind of like, free lunch. Right? Like, I can take vacation if I want to whenever
Dr. Mike T Nelson
my socks? Yeah, exactly,
Kristina Hoyer
yeah, I can put my clothes in my drawer, however I want. Um, and you kind of like, you know, pick apart what parts of it you want to keep and what parts what you want to get rid of. And then like year two, it's like the your, your mental side starts to kind of like the walls start to come down a little bit. And then you get to kind of see like, okay, like, what parts of this building need, like repair and care and attention.
And I remember, like being at a grocery store, I literally remember standing in the aisle and being like, I think I'm about to have a panic attack. I was so interesting, because I had never experienced one before. And this was also I think, like, not in the middle of the pandemic, but like towards the end of it. And so people are super weird. And there's like all this, like, weird rules that I'm supposed to follow that I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. And I remember texting my friend and being like, I think I'm about to have a pair attack. And they were like, if you have something cold, put cold, put cold on your wrist. It can help like mitigate the intensity of it until you can get somewhere like safe, like back to your car.
And I thought it was just like the like hindsight right after the whole experience of it, which was terrible and terrifying. I can't imagine what it's like for individuals to go through them regularly. But it's really interesting, like how the civilian world has these, almost like this mundane level of stress to it, or this mundane, like habitual patterns of things that seem to have, like this weird social rules and structures that are not like as clearly identified as, like, when you're in the military, it's like, everything's pretty clearly identified and you like pretty clearly know the rules of like, what you need to follow and what you're supposed to do. And and like, that's so known, and then you like move into the civilian sector. And there's like, all these invisible rules that apply to the mundane life. And you're just like, what is happening? I think that's like,
Dr. Mike T Nelson
that's, like Xaro world, what happened?
Kristina Hoyer
What a weird world we're living in, and like, how, why does this feel more almost more stressful than like, the world I was living in? That was like, designed to be stressful. And I think it's almost like, it's like this decompression effect where you're so used to this, like compressive very linear, like intentionally pretty stressful environment. And then you get to that like decompression space, like on near to where there's like, Okay, now I'm trying to figure out like, what are the rules around here? And like, do I really like it here? And like, how can I make it more digestible and approachable for me? You know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all your time today. I know you have to run we really appreciate it. And where can people find more about you if you want to be found? coming by,
Kristina Hoyer
um, thank you also for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. And I'm always like, so stoked when I got the invite. So I just love having conversations with you anyways, I can be found at Christina, holier collective.com. That's Christina with a K. And whole your H O ye are collected.com. You can also find me at Christina Hoyer collective on Instagram. I don't really do a ton of other social medias because even though I'm a millennial, I'm not a big fan. So so you can find me or both of those, please, if you want to send me a DM I love like creating genuine, real conversation and community with people. And yeah, thank you again, Mike. It was an absolute pleasure as always,
Dr. Mike T Nelson
yeah. And your Instagram has lots of really good information too. And I think people would really enjoy it. And especially if they're having a little bit more of a hard time or dealing with pain or the stressors that come up. We have lots of really good messages there that I think more and more people need to hear. And it's it's useful, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows either. But it's it's very real and useful, which I really appreciate it. So that's been super helpful. So thank you so much for all your time. Really appreciate it. And we hope to see you again in person sometime soon.
Kristina Hoyer
Yes, someday soon, hopefully. Cool.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah. Thank you. Hi. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Really, really appreciate it. Huge thanks to Christina Hoyer for taking time out to chat with her as always wonderful discussion, so I always enjoy our chats together. Big thank you to her for giving up her time to be a guest on the podcast.
Make sure to check her out on her website and especially on Instagram. You can find her on Instagram at Christina Hoyer collective. Hoyer is spelled H oh Y E R. So, this episode is brought to you by the physiologic flexibility certification. If you want to learn how to become more resilient, robust and anti fragile by using different interventions such as heat, cold changes in pH such as high intensity interval training, long slow distance training, breathing techniques such as Wim Hof technique, super ventilation, breath holds, ketones, carbohydrates and more.
Check out physiologicflexibility.com. For all the information. There'll be a place there where you can add your name to the waitlist for the next time that it is open. If you want the general information about me, you can always go to the main website, which is Miketnelson.com. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really, really appreciate it.
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