text: Fan Comment Karma Never Comes Jay Wood 06/01/2018 162comments | Jump to last Any one recall what they were doing on 27 September 1999? Or, more recently, 17 October 2010?I ask because the first date is the last time we beat 'them' at Anfield. 18 frigging years ago, Kevin Campbell's early goal giving us a 1-0 win. And the second is our last victory against the pinkies, seven years ago, a brace of goals from Tim Cahill and Mikel Arteta in a 2-0 win at Goodison Park.In addition to that, last night's cup exit now makes it a dismal record high 16 games without a single win against them. Sixteen games, people. ADVERTISEMENT About these ads Now I consider I have great patience and tolerance with regard to all things Everton. But this is the Merseyside derby we are talking about. I'm not as extreme as others who claim they would consider it a successful season as long as we beat 'them' twice a season, regardless of other results or where we finished in the league.But quite frankly, if I was 'one of them', reading on ToffeeWeb today comments such as 'Well, it was an improvement on the league game … at least we had a go … thought we did well … we played okay … we were unlucky … a good effort … we looked a decent side … the lads put in a brilliant shift …' ad nausea – Well, I think I'd be laughing me kecks off at us.Is this seriously what we have been reduced to, as a fan base? A shrug of the shoulders? Expressing gratitude that we didn't get tanked 4-0? A casual acceptance that a century-old record of never having lost an FA Cup against 'them' at their pile, gone? A January exit from the FA Cup at their hands?My, how our expectancy in the derby games has shrivelled away to nothing. Sadly, with good reason.In the same time since we last failed to record a win over yonder, Manchester City – even when still shite and paupers in comparison to their neighbours – regularly bloodied Manchester United's nose, home and away.In the same time since we last failed to record a win at Anfield, look at this list of teams who have gone there and got results. And this list contains only teams comparable or of lower ranking than Everton. I excluded the many home defeats the pinkies suffered at the hands of the acknowledged top clubs in the Premier League era.In the same time since we last failed to record a win at Anfield, Aston Villa have won there 4 times; Crystal Palace 3 times; Southampton and West Brom twice; 'super powers' like Ipswich, Charlton, Birmingham, Blackpool, Wolves, Wigan, Fulham, West Ham, and Swansea have all recorded wins there.I defy anyone to say at any time in the past 18 years that any one of those clubs were considerably superior to us and so better-placed to achieve a positive result away to Liverpool. How is it that so many lesser teams can go there and have the guts, the guile, the sheer cussedness, to get a win? How is it that, in the games that for many Blues are the most important fixtures of the year, we simply don't turn up?Our record going on nigh 50 years now shames us. Do you know how many of the 116 derby games we have won since winning 2-0 at Anfield in March 1970 on our way to clinching the title that year?Twenty!!! That is just one win in every 6 games. One win on average every 2-3 years.Breaking that down further, consider this. If you have a child you have cursed with a love of the Blues…● At 7-years-old, they have yet to witness Everton beating Liverpool● Aged 13, they have seen 4 wins for Everton● Aged 21, 7 wins● Aged 26, 12 winsIt may grate with all Blues, but is it any wonder given the results that t'other lot give so little importance to the derby games now, winding us up even more by saying their big derby games these days are against the Manchester clubs?Karma, the tide, good fortune, whatever … it's taking an awful long time to turn. Share this article Reader Comments (162) Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Tom Dodds 1 Posted 07/01/2018 at 06:30:52 Perhaps, Jay, as Karma can be an eternity of waiting, depending on the nature, or the scale of the retributional context... ie, we have put up with years of being owned by a complete and utter fraud and charlatan of a chairman, with a fanbase that I would say in the main actually (still) haven't twigged to the extent of his lack of financial input and the multitudenal depth of his gross incompetency.Whereas, their supporters would not of put up with one (or two at the outside) seasons of 'our farce' borne out by the way they outed Messrs Gillette and Hicks.This all sounds slightly askew from the original overview of your (our) angst but, as we are pondering fate, karma etc, my take is that both sides are basically Scousers. We are, and always have been gifted with good insight or, as Paul McCarthy once said, an 'inner brilliance'. I've always felt that, and it has always served us well especially with our knowledge of the game of football.Back to the derbies, I simply think that our other half (Scouse-wise) have always shown us the way but we just haven't sussed it yet.What I mean is, what we call 'Kopite behaviour' is actually where WE should be at, ie, getting out there marching on Goodison Road, rolling oursleeves up (Okay, we did it once, and btw they, the Board, did shit themselves) and NOT backing down!Maybe us Evertonians will (one day) snap out of this trance and rid us of the Grimer Wormtounge(s) that keep us some-fuckin'-how (despite 'new money') forever going round in circles. Or maybe it's like Déjà Vu... but for eternity??!One thing for sure... I hope to God it's not... Kismet! Steve Brown 2 Posted 07/01/2018 at 07:20:48 Brilliant article Jay and great post from Tom Dodds.The corporate culture over the last 25 years has been characterised by poor leadership, no strategy, zero investment, commercial ineptness, acceptance of mediocrity and low standards in every organisational layer and function. We might hate and despise Liverpool but their fans would never have allowed it to happen. Moshiri has invested heavily in the club, but it genuinely makes me despair that he retains Kenwright, Wood and Elstone in roles of influence.And I hate to say it but we fans have been institutionalised to. Why else would we accept 22 years without a trophy, 18 years without a win at Anfield, managers hired from Preston, Wigan and Soton? And for me the absolute nadir of hiring a manager who is regarded as the lowest common denominator by every club that has hired him, who has only won the 3rd Division trophy in a career spanning 26 years and whose brand of football encapsulates why no top ten club would ever hire him. To read Everton fans lauding him on here and rationalising the dross he serves up as football shows the extent to which our standards as a club have collapsed.We can regard Koppites as horrible, nasty, deluded and unsympathetic, but they marched on Anfield to oust Gillette and Hicks for one tenth of the failure we have suffered. They laugh at us and call us "bitters" because we accept everything and then whinge incessantly about how hard done by we are. If we accept this crap as the customers why should anyone at the club feel then need to do better? Thomas Lennon 3 Posted 07/01/2018 at 08:20:06 For the vast majority of the period you mention, and a long time before that, we have been more of a club of Corinthians than a club of winners. We want to see the business of the club run along lines of fairness, harmony, respect and accept the gift of success when it comes, congratulate conquerors when they all too frequently come and go.With these principles, we have remained in the top league for a long time but never won other than a single FA Cup post '87.Moshiri arriving signals a change: he wants to win. He hasn't eliminated the structure that kept us up but is trying to bring in winners in a market that has quadrupled prices even as he set out to find winners. It is proving difficult; but year after year of investment is needed, not 12 months in isolation.By all means protest but make sure your targets are the right ones. Have we yet turned down a player because his price was too high? For myself, I am concerned that our competitors seem to be able to buy in under-performing or raw players and develop their game Ferguson was a master at it. I guess Davies was a good exception last season and Kenny this but you look at Lookman and wonder where there is improvement? Though there is no doubt he has improved, just still not getting past players as well as he could; likewise Calvert-Lewin is half-a-yard short of nicking goals he should be getting. That new feller's ball retention and passing need work too name of Rooney.We all saw a better team display on Friday after a slight pause in games; I hope our next game shows more. Allardyce has done what he can in the face of huge numbers of games in a short time. Now we are back to weekly games, there has to be further improvement. This has turned into a season of redevelopment rather than failure. Amit Vithlani 4 Posted 07/01/2018 at 08:20:41 I agree with the sentiment, Jay, and you certainly provide food for thought. I would go further and analyse our derby record pre-Kenwright and now. His reign has imbued a culture of complacency which seeps through this club, even continues to do so after Moshiri's arrival. We know this from various episodes from the summer transfer debacle, to the manager search, to the cretinous game-by-game mandate given to Unsworth.Even in little things we have regular fails T-shirts with pictures of the Kop for example, and, only until recently, having one of the worst commercial set ups in the Premier League.The comments you make about our fans are not fair. This club's custodians have run the place like an old boys' club parodied on many comedy shows. It inevitably lowers expectations as failure is seen as a norm.I attach great significance to the derby, not least because good results in the last two decades have generally sparked us to have good seasons:Big Dunc's derby debut saw us win for the first time in 5 derbies (I think) and we went on to win the FA Cup; Carsley's winner set us on our way to a top 4 spot; Gosling's winner saw us reach the FA Cup Final; the 3-3 thriller at Goodison, where we stormed back, saw us finish 5th.Time for Bill Kenwright to stand aside and allow a clean sweep of his cronies Woods, Elstone and any other hangers-on. John Ronnie 5 Posted 07/01/2018 at 08:56:47 Not that I'm a Cricket fan but I guess I can see the similarity in the mind set of the England players going to Australia to compete for the AshesI'm already reading some reports saying they are glad it's not a whitewash! They've been hammered ffs seems they've gone Down Under knowing they would lose sound familiar?Our players need to be hypnotised next time we play there as this is more of a physiological issue than an ability one. Jay Woods[LAT] 6 Posted 07/01/2018 at 09:30:22 There are several reasons why we can't win there or even at home now against them.The biggest is an inferiority complex that permeates both the squad and the fans, resulting in us dreading every match against them instead of relishing having a real go at them. I am certain our players are affected by our negative vibes. Meanwhile, LFC confidently enter every derby game demanding and expecting a win.We also have consistently had inferior players, lacking the financial resources LFC has; nevertheless, the laws of averages would dictate that we would still manage the occasional win over that timespan at their place; but that isn't factoring in the paralysing fear mentioned above.I don't know if any of our players fraternise with any of theirs. If they do, I would be very angry about it. Recall Carragher's comments about our players being all palsy-walsy in the tunnel before the game while his mood was channeled rage; night and day attitudes. You also have Baines making playful banter with their fans while we're losing. It's like a tacit admission that we're only playing in the derby to make up the numbers. Disgusting and intolerable.As a club and fanbase, we need a testosterone injection, not just for games against LFC, but against all the other alpha teams in the Premier League. But we also need to be buying the kind of players they are buying too. So there is a financial component in this situation. Mark Tanton 7 Posted 07/01/2018 at 09:39:04 There was a period of time recently where we had the better players. Under Moyes and even Martinez, we were better on paper than them, and yet we still refused to turn up for the fixture. Don Alexander 8 Posted 07/01/2018 at 09:56:23 Jay (LAT), to buy the kind of players they're buying requires professionalism at the business end of a club. I doubt Klopp is a Koppite, and neither are the owners over there. They take hard decisions for the good of the business, and good thereby becomes visible on the pitch.We, on the other hand, have been "led" by the football equivalent of a pantomime horse with Kenwright and Elstone to the fore and aft. Kenwright in tears has been embarrassing for decades together with his faux-scouse "charm". Instead of hard-nosed winners, he employs failed players who massively squandered their playing careers to coach our squad! And I regret to say that the notion of recognising the so-called massive achievements of Sir Phillip Carter as a club legend further epitomises our ludicrous attitude as the only club to have consistently, massively failed from those selected to be the cream when the Premier League began under his "leadership". If Moshiri still can't see and rectify this, I have grave doubts about the future. Clive Rogers 9 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:25:58 I feel sure that Moshiri knows by now that Kenwright is a buffoon in both football and business terms. Moshiri recently stated that the business side was a shambles when he took over with the Chang deal "more about friendship". Kenwright himself recently said, "I know nothing about business", as if business acumen isn't necessary to run a football club.In this regard, I feel certain that Kenwright retaining the Chairmanship must have been a condition in him selling his shares. Otherwise, there is no way he would have been appointed. Brian Williams 10 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:54:39 I think it's obvious that they operate on a completely different level to us on all fronts. Take the latest transfer(s). We're "allegedly" looking at Mawson of Swansea and Adoulaye Doucoure of Watford. They're looking at Mahrez and/or Thomas Lemar.We sell our "best player" for £75-90m, depending on who you believe, and fail to replace him, while they spunk £75m on a centre-back who knocks us out of the FA Cup.They then sell Coutinho for £142m and have more than half left to replace him. They've also got Keita bought, waiting to come to them in the summer, I think.There's the difference. Rob Dolby 11 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:07:54 There is never any one reason for things like this. Our record in the Premier League era against the clubs that have spent the most is embarrassing and that includes the Red Shite.We are the poor relations. Even last summer we thought we had the finances to compete only to realise that we only have enough to keep us 7th at best. We are in the market for players that the big boys don't want which are gambles. The physical side of the game has changed. Pre-Sky we could always match teams physically and especially in derbies, kick the shit out of them and not worry too much about diving, conning the ref etc. We could also match teams in the transfer market until the Sky deal came in which again favoured the big boys and killed off the Football League teams cut of the TV money. This year Niasse was the first player to be charged with conning the ref for the pen at Palace. Most weeks the same offence is committed by a player from the big boys and nothing happens including the pen the other night. It's beyond a joke.We as Evertonians could write a book about bad decisions against us in Derby games I can only go back as far as Clive Thomas but in the time since it has felt like we have had to beat 12 men. This comes back to refs not wanting to make decisions against the big boys.The only way to redress the balance is to buy our way out of it. Our profile needs to be raised and big money spent on players. It looks like Moshiri has had his fingers burnt by Koeman and may concentrate on the stadium rather than team which does us no favours.In hindsight, the managerial appointments have been less than inspiring. Arsenal were in a similar state to ourselves prior to Wenger. Look at what he as built there compared to us. Their whole new stadium, playing style and buying power is all down to him. In that time we have had dross besides a couple of years from Joe Royle we have had managers who have lowered expectations as part of their self preservation. Martinez did dare to dream but that was about it a dreamer who talked a good game. 11 years of Moyes without a pot to piss in.It's been a slow painful demise over a 30-year period. Moshiri has offered us at least a glimpse of hope at restoring pride; he isn't in the same league as Chelsea or City. The Shower of Shite have just spent £75m on a centre-backand sold a player for £140m twice the amount we got for Lukaku.Our record against the big boys will only change once we have the right manager, tactics and money and at present we don't have any of those 3 things. Paul Birmingham 12 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:10:54 Sadly the required mentality, dynamic and focus to be successful has been lacking at EFC board room level since the Premier League started.The boards scams, let downs etc is legendary. I recall years ago I had a load of good black and white PA pictures of a EFC players and on passing by Goodison at the time I showed them to the CE, at the time, Michael Dunford, he said he'd get them signed and returned to me.Needless to say, that was the last I saw of them. I hope and hope that the club will turn the corner but self inflicted chaos and the shadow of The RS, doesn't help.Times have changed since the mid 80s and the club can't keep being nostalgic. There must be a business plan, with core objectives for the team and off the pitch, but I sense we are going through smoke and mirrors. The Tosun transfer in, the Barkley sale price... We lack cutting edge? Are the club board really serious for the future? Time will prove, but in our hearts and souls, our allegiances are total, but do the EFC supporters old and new really see the club hierarchy having the same belief in the club? Jay Woods[LAT] 13 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:16:49 Some great posts there lads!Thinking a bit more about it since my first post above, it occurred to me that our Premier League record away to all the other big clubs in the league is pretty much on the same dismal level as our record at LFC, so there's more to it than a local inferiority complex.I agree with others who have said the only route out of this malaise is via spending. Just as long as we spend on the right players. Rick Tarleton 14 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:19:20 We've become the Espanyol to Liverpool's Barcelona. That is why the North West's El Classico, for younger reds, especially those from Scandinavia, is the game with Man Utd. We are to Liverpool just an irritating younger brother, rather than a true rival. In 1955 I attended my first derby, we were doing quite well in the old First Division, Liverpool were struggling in the Second Division a month or so before they'd lost 9-1 to Birmingham City. We were guaranteed a win at a packed Goodison Park. We lost 4-0.However, in the sixties we had the better of many of the derby matches. My favourite was a 4-0 win at Anfield in, I think '65 when a young Colin Harvey ran the show and, despite Everton being weakened by injuries, we hammered them.I feel that the Everton team now fear derby games, they have few expectations of winning, and are happy if they can hold out for a 0-0. It's a mindset, while we don't always win against others of the top 6, we do have a far better record against all the other teams than we do against Liverpool.Can one of these sports psychologists that Allardyce loves, come in and hypnotise our players into a more positive mindset before the game at Goodison Park, please? Tony Hill 15 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:24:26 They developed a world brand throughout the 70s and 80s, ignited by the unique Shankly, which left us trailing as the other club from the city. Despite their recent lack of trophies, they've always picked up enough along the way including, of course, the Istanbul nightmare, to maintain momentum. Heysel and missing the Premier League boat were also obvious factors.So they're global and we're not. Psychologically and commercially that affects a great deal in the way the clubs are perceived (including by the media, naturally) and perceive themselves.Of course, we have been poorly run (although they came perilously close to disaster under Gillette and Hicks) and I agree that Kenwright has to leave with his mates, urgently.I've said on here before that Atletico Madrid should be our model in a lot of things both on and off the pitch. The shadow they've been in is much bigger than ours but they have worked in detail and over a long time to get out of it and to become serious contenders. It can be done and I happen to think that we're going to get there quicker than some believe.There's another point that I always hold on to. We can analyse all we like but sometimes, especially in sport, these things change for no apparent reason. The wheel just turns. That is so even if, for us now, it seems as though it never will. Jay Woods[LAT] 16 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:26:01 Rick Tarleton, that's 100% how I've been seeing it too: it's Espanyol and Barcelona mirrored on Merseyside. Rob Halligan 17 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:34:25 I've been going to Anfield since at least 1972, 46 years to be precise. I've seen us win twice, and one of those was a cup match. I was playing Saturday football in the 80s and early 90s so I guess I missed about 10 visits there, including Sharpie's worldie. So you could say I've seen us win one league game there in about 36 years, the one Jay mentions in the OP. Pretty grim really. Alan Bodell 18 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:35:51 Tony, that's a great logical post you made there and it surely will turn someday as we have suffered enough at those over there, we were just flying and then Heysel. Brian Williams 19 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:39:16 Rob (#11).Spot on, mate! Jerome Fander 20 Posted 07/01/2018 at 13:25:37 Still hard not to notice that 8 of those 14 teams were relegated from the top league. Football is a strange game, but money is the main driver in today's world. We don't spend as much as the Red Shite. Maybe one day soon the tide will turn.... then again!We haven't got over being banned in 1987 from Europe. They did. We need to learn lessons and fast!! Len Hawkins 21 Posted 07/01/2018 at 13:55:57 I used to work with a RedNeck and, apart from being Irish, he was one of them blokes who could get photographed sat with the Queen at the State opening of Parliament. Somehow, he was at Shankly's funeral and he told me the Priest was a blue and in his eulogy he said "Everton's time will come again" and it did in the 80s. Sadly the great 80s Everton team broke up because of Heysel and the European ban. That is why it is easy and comfortable to hate them bastards with a passion not bitterness, just a well-deserved hatred of a scumbag club and its scumbag followers. Ste Traverse 22 Posted 07/01/2018 at 14:35:16 Why should we criticise our sides for being shit scared of Liverpool when many of our fans are exactly the same?I've still not forgot coming on here gutted the night we lost that League Cup semi final to City a couple of seasons ago and reading posts off beauts saying they were somehow 'happy' we'd not got to the final because Liverpool had already won their semi and we'd be playing them at Wembley and were terrified of the prospect.That, for me, summed the cowardly attitude we have as a club when it comes to facing them. Chris Leyland 23 Posted 07/01/2018 at 14:44:07 I've just been playing Fifa against my lad. We played Everton vs Barca. As the team came out, the commentator opened up with a long spiel about us being in Liverpool's shadow and how our fans must wish we could move to another city. This is a computer game and they have even infiltrated that too. John G Davies 24 Posted 07/01/2018 at 14:48:07 Ste 23,As my dad drummed into me from a young age: "two arms, two legs, one head. Doesn't matter how big they are, get in there." We have spewed it time after time over the years and it is sickening. Shane Corcoran 25 Posted 07/01/2018 at 14:58:21 Karma me hole.On ambition, as we've no distractions now, and we have a centre-forward, 7th place again is likely to present a Europa League place. How many of you want or don't want to finish in 7th? John G Davies 26 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:02:14 Yes please, Shane. 7th would be a good achievement after the disruption of this season. Shane Corcoran 27 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:03:54 John, I agree.What I'm getting at though is that I'm sure some would see the same arduous run to the group stages, as well as the group stages themselves, having a negative impact on our domestic season in 2018-19. Not I though. John G Davies 28 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:16:28 It's Catch-22, Shane. Logically they will tell you if we finish 8th and no Europe we can go for top 4 next season without distraction of European football. Ain't gonna happen. Too big of a jump. I will take Europa League, a cup run and 7th again. Tony Hill 29 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:17:15 Yes, I think qualifying for Europe is important and I think we'll do well out of it next time. I also expect that by the end of the season we'll be in 7th position and playing good football (having beaten the RS at Goodison). Given the Koeman fiasco that would be excellent. Richard Reeves 30 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:18:04 Inferior managers, an inept chairman, and a complacent and apologist fan base. We get what we deserve so, in a way, Karma is already here. Jay Wood[BRZ] 31 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:19:11 A number of posts identify a couple of things that I also feel.1) it is not just against Liverpool we have a poor record home and away, but particularly away; we have a poor record against all the Premier League 'elite' since its introduction2) we were at least on a par with most of that 'elite' when the Premier League was founded and ahead of most of them in most aspects history, titles, status, finance, stadium, squad and player attractionOn #1, I'm pretty sure I would be correct in saying that at the formation of the we only had a marginally inferior head-to-head record historically against 2 clubs Liverpool and Arsenal. The former only marginally, largely due to that golden era they experienced in the 70s, early 80s, when unquestionably they dominated English football (and us!).All other clubs, including Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and Spurs, our head-to-head record against them was well in credit.If I did a similar analysis of those clubs and our results against them in the Premier League era alone, it would make for similar sorry reading compared to how results were before.To emphasize this, some more bruising numbers of our head-to-head results versus Liverpool.In the 47 years I referenced, in which time Everton has won a mere 20 games home, away or on neutral territory against them, Liverpool have beaten us 55 times in 116 meetings - a 5.5 : 1 win ratio in their favour.In the 18 years since we last beat them at Anfield, their record at Goodison over 19 games is won 10, lost 4, drawn 5 - a 53% win ratio for them. On our own patch.If that return it doesn't hurt you, it hurts me. Because as others mention, in many of the games we had either a better team than them, or at least had parity with them, as well as going into many a derby game as the clear form favourites.And almost every time, we blew it. We just didn't perform.This, IMO, is a direct consequence of point #2: poor leadership and management by the club's custodians who, unlike many of our peers and some lesser clubs, simply did not realise and tap into the potential and opportunities the Premier League offered early enough as others did.This has left us not even bobbing along in their wake, but being completely tossed overboard without as much as a life belt, barely able to keep our head above water.Finally, just to reply to one point in particular by Amit @ 4 (and one I anticipated). He wrote:"The comments you make about our fans are not fair."With respect, Amit, I am not having a pop at fans, because I'm one of them. I'm one of them who always looks for positives, even in defeats. I am as guilty as any one for saying on occasions the comments I quoted.Why? Exactly as I tried to demonstrate: because like so many Blues I am just as guilty of having my expectancy of a positive result against Liverpool (and other Premier League 'elites') shrivelled away to nothing, as I originally wrote.Believe me, I have depressed myself looking at and discovering the numbers I have uncovered. If Moshiri is going to make the difference we all hope for, he has a lot of work and catching up to do as effectively we have given our natural and historical peers a 25 year start. Dave Abrahams 32 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:21:48 Jay, I have got possibly less tolerance than you when it comes to Everton getting beat by Liverpool and it does my head in. The last 10 years, at least, have had me ranting and raving at our lack success and effort in beating them.However on Friday night, watching the game on TV I saw a team that had more fight, effort and no little ability than for quite a while, so for me, although I wasn't happy,how could any Blue be? It seems the tide is turning and In the next few weeks different players will be coming into the team, three or four who played the other night will be squad players at the most and will not play in the same team together.As I said in another post about the game, let's see what Moshiri can do. If the new ground doesn't materalise and the funding dries up then we all know that the club is going nowhere. Jay, you seem to be an honest man, answer this: After we has equalised on Friday, were you roaring at your TV, thinking we had a good chance of winning, just as much chance as them? I did. Kevin Tully 33 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:24:49 I've never been so embarrassed to see us set up like "Premier League San Marino" there a few weeks ago. To see Blues celebrating that performance tells you all you need to know. This has nothing to do with the manager of the time. Moyes admitted he 'just wanted to get out alive' away to these teams, and that culture still wafts through the corridors of Goodison. Any organisation is led from the man at top, whatever some want us to think. I read a post on here yesterday that the chairman & CEO have nothing to do with the running of the club, it's Walsh, Moshiri & the Russian who are running things how amazing that the chairman and CEO are just figureheads! Fans accept it, the board accept it, so anyone fighting for improvement is already on the losing side. Positions are still entrenched from the days Green was calling the shots. Fans even refused to accept he had anything to do with the club then, even after being presented with the fact he fired Wyness whilst on his yacht. Forget about the fans changing. Sean Patton 34 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:35:06 JayIt is unacceptable and the galling thing is they aren't particularly good. I mean, in the 70s, you could understand it as they were winning everything in sight.We have actually finished above them twice since we last beat them, so have been better over the course of a season, yet still couldn't manage a single derby win. The youth teams in this period have won multiple times including 4-0 and 5-0 so it's not the entire club that has a complex.It will turn it has to. I guess we have to hang on in there until it does... what choice do we have? David Barks 35 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:37:55 We don't try to win so we don't. And this was before Allardyce even came, so it's only getting worse. Just hold on for 0-0 if we can, that's our strategy. It was the same against Chelsea a few weeks ago and I remember reacting with disgust as Goodison erupted in roars of celebration at the final whistle. Zero shots on target and 30% possession at home in that match, and Goodison celebrated as if we were a non-league side that just earned a replay in the Cup, essentially balancing the books for that season. It was pathetic.So this club is where it deserves to be at this point. And it won't change unless an owner comes in that takes the initiative to do so, because the supporters certainly won't. As this continues, we will see the youth of Liverpool continue to support the red side in growing numbers. Our fan base will die off, and that isn't hyperbole. The youth when given a choice will not have any reason to support this shite when their friends are glowing after watching Liverpool score goals for fun. That shiny new stadium won't mean a damn thing. John G Davies 36 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:40:43 David, Genuine question. Are you from Liverpool? Dennis Stevens 37 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:47:52 Still think we'll win the League again before they do although that's probably not that much of a claim! Christine Foster 38 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:50:23 Good posts, but not Karma, the neglect and a club run badly are to blame. For me no matter how you cut it performances on the pitch are a reflection of the lack of professionalism off it. But, I believe Moshiri is going to clean the lot of them out. Kenwright and Elstone are being sidelined and I think Moshiri is really angry at the incompetence of the transfer decisions this season and took control of the situation by insisting on Allardyce to protect his investment. I doubt it's what he wanted but he could not trust the advice he was being given.Successful businessmen don't become successful by taking the advice of others; he gave them leeway and has regretted it since. Somewhere along the way, soon I think, Kenwright will depart for "health reasons" and Elstone will be dropped from an exec role... the wheel will turn. David Barks 39 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:51:27 John Davies,Please don't sink to the level of questioning where one currently lives. Please don't do that. I was wrapped in Everton blankets as a baby, been a Blue my entire life. Was lucky enough to witness Carsley's goal in person. Family is from Kirkby, currently spread out in Wirral, Kirkby, Liverpool, Washington, and California among other places. What's your point? Mark Tanton 40 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:54:16 Christine how on earth can you suppose what Moshiri makes of Kenwright and the running of the club? He seems perfectly happy to give Bill a responsibility for the important stuff doesn't he? I think it's just wishful thinking on your part we don't know the dynamics of the leadership structure, but Kenwright seems as at the heart of it all as ever. Sam Barrett 41 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:54:44 Just a response to David's claim about our fan base dying off in the coming years. This is absolutely not going to happen in the city of Liverpool. I have friends and family members who are Kopites and none of them go to watch them regularly. Most of my Evertonians do. This applies more to the youngsters of the city. Our child season tickets are amazingly affordable. Where it may happen is in the rest of the country, world wide and the media. But as all 3 are totally infested by them already, I cannot see it getting any worse. Darren Hind 42 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:57:05 There is only so many ways of telling people what they already know.The desperate run of results is not confined to matches against our nearest and dearest, our record against Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd and more recently Spurs is cringe worthy.Call for change and you will be shouted down in pubs on the street and in here by people calling for patience. These results are a by product of patience.You can't tell people to be patient when they rail against low expectation and then complain about the low expectation Alan Bodell 43 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:58:10 David, that is a strange post saying the youth of Liverpool will 'continue to support them', that's weird mate as we are born and do not choose, thankfully. John G Davies 44 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:00:10 My point is you have no take on the situation if you think Everton dads will allow their kids to be Liverpool fans. You also have no take on it if you think our fan base will die off. We haven't won a trophy for 23 years and we have an 8,000 waiting list for season tickets. David Barks 45 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:06:31 Alan,That's a cliche, just as Nil Satis Nisi Optimum means nothing in regard to the current state of the club. For the last five years I have sat in countless Google summits reviewing studies of the millennial generation and already studying the generation coming after them. Number One thing to note is a complete disregard for brand loyalty.While that doesn't 100% transfer over to football support, it does and will have an impact. Simply going by what the parents do or say is not what these next generations are about. They are actually rejecting it more and more. It's a psychology that is only growing. It is all about value for them. The goal for any business is to grow their customer base, in Everton's case their supporters. This club has done nothing to do that for decades now. You only need to look in the crowd at Goodison to see how old the supporters are in general. If you think the football can go on like it has for the last couple of decades without a negative impact, you are deluding yourself. Jay Wood[BRZ] 46 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:08:23 Dave @ 32.Bloody oath, Dave! Of course when we equalised I jumped up screaming and running around the room, waking Toffee the mutt (what else could I call him?) from his slumber, barking and leaping around with me.Even in football-mad Brazil, my friends and neighbours laugh and sit in open-mouth amazement at my intensity when watching Everton. I hope I never lose that.It's what we do, isn't it, Dave? Hope! Believe! Finally, this is our time!And then we lose.Yeah fellah. Compared to the league game, the performance was an improvement, but only marginally so, not radically so.You and I and more senior Blues grew up with an expectancy that we would beat the buggers. As I tried to show, you have children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews who in their entire lifetime have had little or nothing to cheer in the Merseyside derby.The data I've researched shocks me.It hurts, Dave. It really, really hurts. Tony Hill 47 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:09:08 Yes, the youth of Liverpool recognise what is authentic and support is handed down within families, both Red and Blue, admittedly with occasional and inexplicable variations. That's what David Barks confirms in his own case.The crucial thing is that we need to get mentally tougher and that has been so for a long time. That's why I was so pleased to see Holgate's idiotic and dangerous push on Firmino. Focus that rage and we'll be well on our way. I think we've already started, actually, under our new and ridiculously maligned management. Andrew Presly 48 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:10:57 Surely this summer, Moshiri waves Bill n' Bob off, gives Sam his £6m thank you and we can get on with building something long term? Steady progress on the pitch centred around the young players and getting on with building the stadium. Otherwise what is the point? Best of the rest (7th) and no derby wins til death do us part?! I didn't know about that Cup record we had at Anfield. Shame to see that one go with such a whimper. Tony Hill 49 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:12:28 David (#45), have a look at our away support which is very young. Nor do I recognise what you say about the Goodison crowd. It just isn't true and I have no idea where you've got that from, it's bollocks. Dave Abrahams 50 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:15:49 I have never ever seen an Everton home game on TV, because I am always at Goodison on these occasions. However, I have been in pubs scores of times when Liverpool are at home and they are packed tight with Liverpool born supporters, lots wearing the red shirts, men in their fifties who have never been to Anfield in donkey's years.I would say there are at the very least as many Blue Scousers who go to the match as Red ones and, if the two clubs were involved in cup matches on the same day in London or elsewhere, there would be more Blue fans going to the game. John G Davies 51 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:16:52 David 45,You lost me when you compared Everton FC to a brand. Do you go to the home games? Brent Stephens 52 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:19:47 Alan (#43), "We are born and do not choose thankfully".Some of us chose, despite a red (and red-faced) father! David Barks 53 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:22:03 John Davies,Everything is a brand. What do you think Man City and Chelsea have done? What do you think the whole "People's Club" crap was? It was branding Everton as exactly that, the people's club. It's a business that needs to expand their customer/supporter base as that is where the money comes from. Liverpool is a brand, make no mistake. Gary Russell 54 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:22:41 Just read the Echo Everton page online and this article surprised me, especially this bit... 'The Blues also boast a higher profile of younger fans than the rest of the league at their home games - 26% are 22 and under compared to 18% for the rest of the league.'http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-science-behind-premier-leagues-14121949It also reports, 'The latest "Home" campaign video attracted almost 500,000 views on all club channels in week one!'Then I came on here to see posts about young fans etc. Seems we are in good shape fanbase wise if we can believe the findings. 60,000 stadium sounds reasonable. John G Davies 55 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:26:54 Not to me they're not, David. And not to any Blue I know. They are my team. I asked the question "Do you go to home games?" as you have no take on the amount of kids at Everton home games. Dave Abrahams 56 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:28:57 Jay (46), yes I did the same here in Norris Green, my wife ran the stairs, not so much as with me, she said someone has scored at Anfield, she could hear the roars here over a mile away.What I meant though, Jay, I thought we were as likely to score again as them.Do you not believe, Jay, that we have been hampered with the unbalanced squad we were left with after the summer dealings and can you not see we will improve with the expected players coming in, in January? I can and I expect Everton to give much improved performances if/when this happens. (Being Everton, I had to put that "if" in.) David Barks 57 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:30:14 You know what, I'm wrong. All is rosy at Everton and our football is brilliant. Our support at home is fantastic, Goodison is a roaring cauldron. Pay no attention to being beaten time after time by our neighbours, and the lack of a trophy for two decades, lack of a league title in three decades. It will never have an impact at all because we all know that Everton are better than Liverpool because we say so. Great, the next generation has so many exciting 0-0 home games to celebrate. They'll eat it up. David Barks 58 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:33:37 John Davies,I live in fucking Los Angeles mate. So sorry I don't fly over for every home match, but I have to pay the mortgage. I get over as often as I can, which is on average a couple of matches a season, usually 2 home and 1 away trip. So kindly shove your little "true supporter" test up your arse. John G Davies 59 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:40:09 Slow down buddy. Chill out. Have a skinny double green alfalfa smoothie I don't do the better Blue thing. I asked a genuine question did you go to home games as you obviously were not aware of the amount of kids who go to the game. Ciao babe. xx Sam Barrett 60 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:40:11 No-one's saying everything is rosy at Everton, David, just responding to your claim that Everton's fan base is dwindling when it clearly isn't, John asked you a relevant question as to why you would think this.You make a lot of good points on here, mate, some are often uncomfortable reading, but good points nonetheless. But on this one, you are wrong; I'd quit while you're behind. James Hughes 61 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:41:40 John G. You may not like it but David is right. Football is a brand, one built on emotion, passion, tribal family and love for the badge. You may not agree but that is the point of replica kits, etc. The selling of the brand is what has helped make other clubs huge and left us far behind in the finance stakes. Dermot Byrne 62 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:45:50 Agree, James. But how it is to each of us differs and based on so many things. Dave Richman 63 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:48:50 Jay Wood: Your post should be compulsory reading for every Evertonian in the world. Particularly those that are so accepting of mediocrity, and love anyone that shows "passion" which, by the way, appears to be the latest buzzword pertaining to Everton on social media. An example of this is Oumar Niasse He "shows passion" you see, and "deserves to stay at Everton after all he has been through". The fact that he is an appalling footballer seems to be irrelevant, and I can't for one second imagine that shower across the park taking to such a terrible player.I was absolutely furious on Friday night. Apoplectic. Yet I read all kinds of posts on Facebook saying things like "Ah well, at least we tried", which some seem to feel is commendable when referring to a squad of extremely well paid footballers They may well have "tried", but we fucking lost to them. Again. And I am sick to death of that. John G Davies 64 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:49:38 Sitting at a bar on holiday. Cockney lad sitting next to me. "Oo's yer brand, scarse?" Nah Tony Hill 65 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:55:17 I don't think everything's rosy, far from it. But shouting loudly at the rosebud won't make it grow. David Barks 66 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:58:14 John Davies,Do you honestly think that Everton is financed by the supporters who go to Goodison? If so, you are sadly living in a past long dead.Everything is about the foreign TV deals and merchandising, global, not local. The Premier League is a brand, a global brand. And the clubs that take part are brands, marketed around the globe. That is why you have Manchester United kits sold and worn all over Asia. And it's why Manchester City and Chelsea shirts are common viewing in the USA. They are brands marketed to bring in revenue that supports the club and makes the owners all that cash.Don't believe me? Take it from Manchester United themselves, who know a thing or to about this.http://ir.manutd.com/company-information/business-model.aspx"Within the Commercial revenue sector, we monetize our global brand via three revenue streams: sponsorship; retail, merchandising, apparel & product licensing; and mobile & content. Sponsorship: We monetize the value of our global brand and community of followers through marketing and sponsorship relationships with leading international and regional companies around the globe. To better leverage the strength of our brand, we have developed a global, regional and product segmentation sponsorship strategy. Our sponsorship revenue was £162.3 million, £160.1 million, and £154.8 million for each of the years ended 30 June 2017, 2016, and 2015, respectively." Stan Schofield 67 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:00:21 Beating Liverpool, or rather failing to, is given too much focus. What happens in derbies is simply a symptom of an underlying problem. And that problem is lack of really big money. I started going to the match in 1961 when I was 7, and by the time I was 16 I'd witnessed 3 trophies and consistent top end of the table finishes, as well as consistently wonderful and stylish attacking football. But it was all based on having more money than other clubs.Until we get into that position again, and get massive injections of money, we'll continue to be top-end of mid table and at best winning the occasional Derby match if we're lucky. Anything else is simply rearranging the deck chairs on a ship that's drifting. John G Davies 68 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:01:13 Kindly stick that up your arse, David. Steve Carse 69 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:04:09 Can we put one thing to bed the myth that the derby means nothing now to RS absolute bollocks, not for those living on Merseyside at least. They were saying the same thing in the 80s until we knocked them off the top and if you think we're bitter now, you should recall how their patronising and condescending attitude towards Blues turned quickly to nastiness and bitterness as a result.Indeed if we're looking at why so many other clubs have won at Anfield over the last 20 years since we last did you need to look no further than the very fact that they DO care very intensively about the Merseyside derby. Don't let them kid you otherwise. Jim Bennings 70 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:08:32 It's merely a lack of mentality!We have always gone there and shrunk in the carnival flag waving atmosphere, all our players have shit themselves big time even the so-called blue scousers maybe the exception of Rooney but he's never made enough appearances, Baines is a powder-puff lad, Barkley was always a spanner short of a toolbox and would never have been our Steven Gerrard let's be honest.As people say, it's a mental block now, nothing else but a mental block, smaller clubs regularly go away from home to Anfield or other venues like Arsenal, Chelsea and win (Watford at Arsenal last year, Burnley at Chelsea, Crystal Palace won four back-to-back trips to Chelsea and Liverpool between 2014 and 2017) places we haven't sniffed a win at since Gazza was a fit young lad playing a part for England in Euro 96.So it can only be classed as a mental block that's existed at Everton for years now, to have so many years without beating these sides goes beyond financial restrictions, clubs like Bournemouth, Watford, Palace regularly prove it's very doable to win at such venues.That is why Everton's biggest signing ever would be to employ a sports psychologist. Tom Bowers 71 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:11:19 It's easy to jump on the bandwagon when things are rosy. The game has changed a lot over the years as we all know and big investors have generally determined who wins rules the roost. The top six indicate that right now and over the last few years.However, one thing about life is that things change.Some of the also-rans of previous years are gradually attracting big investors as they see how world wide media coverage of the ''beautiful'' game can bring in big rewards.Just look at the profit the RS have made on the Couthino deal.Everton's turn may not be far away now that Moshiri is here but we have to be patient and have the right personnel in place. That may or may not be Big Sam or Little Sam but there is a lot of very promising talent at the club right now, more so than there's ever been in my opinion and it just needs the right people to bring it all to fruition.Yes, it is galling to have to stomach the constant disappointments especially in derby matches where the RS have most of the luck but every dog has it's day and I think time will prove me right about things changing. Jay Wood[BRZ] 72 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:11:25 Dave @ 56.Of course I believed, mate! I really, really thought we were going to finally throw off that 18-year millstone of not winning there.Our goal was the best move of the match. Jags charging forward down the right to set up Siggy for the goal the best part of it! What the frig was he doing there?! Brilliant by the skipper!And then... we lost. Coughing up a really soft goal in the last 5 minutes. For all the 'improvement'.If you follow my posts on here, you know full well my position on many aspects of the club. Part of the tolerance and patience I display is for the new manager to be given time to turn around the train wreck he inherited.I've already written on TW let's see how the squad looks come 1st February, as much as for who has been shipped out as to who gets drafted in. None of that explains or justifies the near 50 years of abysmal returns against Liverpool that my original post analysed.Oh! And as for David Barks, you make some legitimate remarks about marketing and customer recruitment and retention and how a football club most definitely represents 'a brand', David.That said, a football (sports) supporter is different in some ways to the 'customer profile' of other 'brands' because of the often personal, historical inheritance and emotional attachment they have to the club they follow. They cannot be casually persuaded to switch to a 'superior brand' that offers more 'features'.I also think you are being too dismissive in how much improved Everton is these days with their marketing and branding, as Gary's link @ 54 highlights. The league high numbers on young attendees at Goodison reinforce that. I believe you are stateside these days David and I don't know how frequently you get back to Liverpool these days, but I think you also seriously underestimate just how strong the Blue following is in the city still, as others point out.I recently made my first visit back to the city of my birth in nigh on 20 years. Okay, I mixed mainly in Blue circles with friends and family during my stay, but I also have to say time and time and time again, in shops, cafes, restaurants, pubs, with taxi drivers, whatever, the overwhelming majority of strangers I spoke casually with revealed themselves as Blues.That is not invention David. It is based on actual experience.If Moshiri proves the real deal and gets it right, he can stir a slumbering giant.The historic performances against 'them', the focus of my OP, still hurts though! David Barks 73 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:12:34 Whats the matter John? No comeback for being clearly proven wrong by Manchester Uniteds investment department that football clubs are indeed brands? Since Ive answered two of your questions, why dont you return the favor. What is your age and occupation? Brent Stephens 74 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:18:15 David "Number one thing to note is a complete disregard for brand loyalty. Simply going by what the parents do or say is not what these next generations are about. They are actually rejecting it more and more. It's a psychology that is only growing. It is all about value for them".Is there any evidence that that works significantly in football at local level as opposed to non-local level? ie, are young people from Merseyside these days shown to be ditching their original local club (say, Everton) pretty much as easily as a non-local (say, Chinese) would? I'd be very surprised but maybe the evidence is out there. David Barks 75 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:19:39 Jay,I completely agree that the city is filled with Blues. I experience the same when I come over. And I do not expect current Blues to switch their support. My God that would never happen. What I was saying is that, in the future, I fear the children will make that choice before they get the emotional attachment. Yes, I am perhaps using some of the analytics I work with regarding millennials and the next generation and applying that. I do not believe it will have the same level of impact that it has in brand retention of other industries, but I believe it will have some impact.Not in overwhelming numbers at first. But it doesn't have to be. As others have said, and I acknowledge and am proof of, it is mostly passed down. So a few kids switch to red, then their kids will be brought up reds. What you certainly won't see right now is kids choosing us over them. I will live in eternal optimism that Moshiri will one day turn it around, or that the next owner will. But so far it's getting worse, but performances that in the past would have been rightly condemned are now being accepted and in other cases actually approved of. Sam Barrett 76 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:21:54 The moment I hear anyone at the game refer to Everton as a 'brand' is the moment I give up. Paul Tran 77 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:22:09 Not karma for me.Lack of ambition, motivation and poor recruitment at all levels.Complacency and poor decision-making after the 1970 title win and after the 1984-87 triumphs. By all means blame Heysel; think about what we did ourselves. Persuaded Harvey to take the job when he said he didn't want it. Then we joined our neighbours across the park at running the club like a family corner shop and got left behind. Years of underfunding, poor recruitment and over-retention have followed.Since he came on board, Moshiri has wiped the debt, brought in a big-name manager and backed him, then sacked him when things became terminal. Now he's brought in a manager with authority who can actually communicate, unlike the last two. I'll judge him on what he does till the end of the season.Let's concentrate on the things we can do. Run the place like a proper business, making it clear what success actually means and firing anyone who can't/won't toe the line. Having a coherent spokesperson in place to keep the fans informed on all matters. I'd have all the non-playing staff on performance-related contracts. Making it clear what our ambitions are, so we keep our young talent. Only buying players when we know specifically how we're going to use them, making sure that we close deals quickly. Getting rid of players who are clearly past their best instead of giving them another 3 years.I don't like seeing us lose Derbies or playing defensive football. Where we are now is where we were a year ago, a dull team winning some and losing some. I do like us looking organised for the first time in four years; I love seeing youngsters coming through with an attitude and application that puts some 'senior' players to shame. Now we need to drill the forward players as well as the defence. We need to recruit players who create a spark with their skill and attitude. We need diamonds that glow all the time, rather than every so often. Players and staff need to know what's expected and the consequences of succeeding or failing to do it. That's what will get us up the table, challenging and winning trophies.Karma? You make your own luck, you learn from your mistakes and get the basics consistently right. In the 47 years I've been actively following the club, we've done that for about five of them. Debt cleared, stadium on the way; let's make a fresh start and do these things properly for a change. Jim Bennings 78 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:22:09 Even we, Everton, have visited places like Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea etc and they have had nothing at all to play for and have clearly looked disinterested in the game (sometimes even down to 10 men from first half) we still can't punish them and get the win. Arsenal on the last day of last season springs to mind, they had a Cup Final the following weekend and were down to 10 men after 13 minutes yet still prevailed 3-1.Numerous times we had a man advantage at Anfield but still lost.We once played an Arsenal team that looked visibly pissed at Highbury after wrapping up the title a week earlier, 2002 but they won 4-3 thanks to us behaving more pissed than them.We need a sports psychologist and we need one now. Stan Schofield 79 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:23:21 Jim@70: Spot on about it being a mental problem against Liverpool. Over the last decade and more we've finished on average 10 points and 3 placings behind Liverpool, but if we'd won derby games instead of going belly-up, the gap would have been small, and indeed we would likely have finished above them quite often. So it's small margins, but margins influenced by mentality.All I'm saying @67 is that, even if that mentality problem were solved, there's a much bigger underlying problem to do with money. Sort that out, and you solve many problems. Jim Bennings 80 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:28:33 It's like anything. Would a person so fearful of flying get on a plane confidently without medication, intervention or hyponotherapy?? Maybe they wouldn't even fly at all?It's the same principle with Everton in big games away from home.We need an outside influence like a sports psychologist. Paul Tran 81 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:31:32 You're right Jim, and it's interesting that Allardyce is the first manager we've had that's spoken about this. I hope he takes action. The mentality needs to come at least as quickly as any money. Darren Hind 82 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:38:30 This is where people confuse themselves. We have been playing awful football for years now and we are patting ourselves on the back for finishing above clubs who don't spend anywhere near what we spend. This "I'm prepared to wait till February" lark is just a snapshot of the way this club has been run for over 30 years.There are two things we want from our club: to play attractive football, and to win things. There is no serious hope of Allardyce doing either. We may get the odd stirring game, but we already know we will be the Premier League's gargoyle as long as he is here. What the fuck are people waiting for??? That's a genuine question by the way. If you are prepared to accept the eternal promise of Jam Tomorrow... why be surprised when others don't expect any today? Jay Wood[BRZ] 83 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:41:40 David @ 75.Unlike John G in this thread, I don't readily dismiss some of the claims you are making, specifically to "... children [choosing other clubs] before they get the emotional attachment [inherited from their parents/locale/peers]."There is clear evidence in the last couple of decades that local clubs do lose out as a younger generation opt to follow the bigger, more successful 'brand', rather than 'Toffington City' playing in League Two.As an example, on that recent trip to the UK I also crossed the Pennines to visit friends and family around Leeds, quite a hot bed of local support for the team at Elland Road.Now 15-20 years ago the young son of one die-hard Leeds United family was proud to wear the kit and pretend he was Yeboah or Viduka, winning the league for Leeds.He is now an Arsenal supporter. It is also a source of huge annoyance to my mate who increasingly sees Man United shirts being worn by kids in this previously hot bed community of Leeds fans. If you have any inkling of the rivalry that exists between the 2 clubs, you will understand what total heresy it is for Leeds followers.Now maybe the Blue half of the city of Liverpool is more resilient than that. But the scenario you paint is not one that should be casually or sneeringly dismissed. John Daley 85 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:42:24 The last time we beat them at their place was during my first week at university. I was 20 at the time, so I've now been waiting bordering on half my life for it to happen again. Waiting nearly 20 years; not to see them pick up a tin pot or take part in the Champions League proper, but simply to bag 3 points at the ground of a... not particularly great throughout that entire period... Premier League rival. It's absolutely pathetic when you think about it. As a club, we deserve everything we get. Live life on your knees long enough and, sooner or later, some filthy lecherous scumbag is going to say "Fucking suck on it". Well, that lot stick it to us year after year and the most spirited resistance we can muster is to occasionally spit rather than swallow.Instead of standing up and fighting back, our solution seems to be to stitch yet another complete arse of a showing onto our face, like a footballing version of 'The Human Centipede', now nearly 20 shit-eaters strong and stretching out for miles.I remember my old man reacting with disgust when David Moyes came out and said it was "unbelievable" and "incredible" for Everton to get so much as a draw at Anfield, given the difference in spending power. He became resigned to going to his grave without seeing us record another win at their ground that very day. Yet, it now seems that snatching a point and playing the part of plucky spoiler is indeed satisfaction enough for some. A lamentable league performance, where we looked no further than launching it out of danger and were handed the undeserved lifeline of a soft penalty on our sole foray forward, is now savoured because it left their manager with a titty lip on over the fact only one team tried to play?A Third Round FA Cup exit is said to be a 'step in the right direction' simply because the bare minimum requirement of a bit of damn grit and effort was evident in a derby game?Maybe it's just the fact that perpetual failure has finally resulted in a large number of the fanbase becoming resigned to our fate of bobbing about directionlessly like a dropped log trying desperately not to be flushed down the bog, but lacking the necessary limbs to claw our way back to the loftier position where we once 'hung out'. Far from the first time people have cottoned on to the club being shite, of course, but in previous era's there had always been some hope, no matter how miniscule, of the right appointment... the right signings... the right youngsters... the right investor...of something.... being the catalyst for Everton to finally reawaken and kick on once again. After the latest false dawn, not even the most deluded, droopy eyed, fuckwit is going to be falling for that one again any time soon, surely?Apologies, this past week has put me on a right downer. Paul Tran 86 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:02:47 Darren. Agree with all of that. What would it take for us to get this instant turnaround and who do you think might do it? John G Davies 87 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:04:31 The $64 million question, Paul. Paul Tran 88 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:11:43 Not trying to be flippant here, I can't think of a manager who turned up at a club in a mess and immediately transformed it into a paradise of attractive, winning football.Even Man City, with all their money, took a while before they got it right.Where I do agree is that we never see the signs of these, only one or the other fleetingly.I'm not convinced we'll win anything with Allardyce either, but I do think he'll leave his successor with an easier job. And then it's up to us to recruit well. Ohhhh. Dave Abrahams 89 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:11:44 Jay (72), that is why I replied to your O/P. I wasn't happy one contented because we lost, but because I can genuinely see us getting better, starting with that display on Friday. We did okay with a weakened team that will most probably be strengthened very soon. In my opinion, three players turned out who are not good enough to play consistently for Everton in the future and will be replaced very soon. We might be in agreement there, Jay. Amit Vithlani 90 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:14:57 Sam @ 74"The moment I hear anyone at the game refer to Everton as a 'brand' is the moment I give up."This sounds like something Bill Kenwright would say, and belongs to an era when we were sponsored by the makers of fax machines.The value of the Premier League overseas rights is rapidly catching up with the value of the domestic rights, and within the next 5 years will overtake it.Like it or lump it, money power is the influencing force in this league. Like it or lump it, the Premier League is a business where brand matters.Like it or lump it, Premier League revenues from overseas (TV rights, merchandise, advertising) will overtake revenues from the domestic and local fan base.The Premier League is a global product run by businessmen. Moshiri is in for £230m-odd for this reason. Brand absolutely matters.If we are to end our dismal derby run, we will need to recognise, gear up and cash in on this global trend. Tony Hill 91 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:22:11 Where do the laments take us? When we sack Allardyce after 5 weeks and make ourselves look even more pitiful, who will be our saviour? Thrashing about in outrage with vague notions that it should all be much better if only we could think how, will take us down and not up. Tony Abrahams 92 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:22:34 Steve Carse is bang on the money, and we play right into their fucking hands, every time.The last time we beat them was the worst for me because they were fucking shite, and we just accepted a 2-0 win. I remember having to make a joke about it with some Evertonians, because I was fuckin' fumin', and they were obviously thinking I must have been a red.Joe Royle had it right: get stuck right into them, then laugh and joke, at the end. Throw in a couple of throw-away remarks, and put the boot back on the other foot. I think Allardyce will approach these games on similar lines, given time, and Sammy Lee, already knows their traits, so hopefully soon they will be calling him a fucking traitor!I see what Dave means though (me dar) because I text Jonjoe Kenny's dad, after the game on Friday night, because although we lost, I was made-up with him, and a few of are younger lads. I think it will have hurt them kids, a lot more than it's hurt our players for years, so that is the positive I'm clinging to for now.Make the bastards tell us they hate us to our face, because it's the snidiness, and the smugness, that goes right through me, and probably every other Evertonian. Jim Bennings 93 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:24:50 John,It was Kenwright love child David Moyes who first instilled the losers underdog mentality on every trip to Anfield and every other trip to what was then the so-called top four. The man has never won away to Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or Manchester United (some say he even struggled for wins there as United boss. -) .It was Moyes that once said we can count ourselves after every trip to Old Trafford to "get out of there alive" and of course the infamous "Knives to gunfights" phrase.11 years of overall failure by the man Kenwright would still have here now , let's not kid ourselves Moyes managed Everton at a time when finishing 4th was achievable. Manchester City were nowhere to be seen as a club then, Tottenham were having short term affairs with everyone from Glenn Hoddle, Jacques Santini and Juande Ramos, resulting in-bottom half finishes.Liverpool were in and out of transition under various managers. There was only Arsenal, United and Chelsea that had first dibs on the top three places. Many a time our rivals for 4th or 5th were the likes of Aston Villa, Blackburn and Middlesbrough.Moyes wouldn't have lasted a minute in today's world and that my friend is why his last two clubs have been those that merely view survival as the Holy Grail. Alan Bodell 94 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:26:40 Brent (#52), I feel for you mate as it's tough having a close one next you especially as the train is arriving and your next to them on the platform, Brent Stephens 95 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:32:20 Aye, Alan! I switched allegiance when I was very young and changed schools most of the other lads being blue. God my old man gave me grief for ever after that it was their rise under Shankly. But I've never wavered since (no longer a boy!). Jason Wilkinson 96 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:44:09 Why don't we win at Anfield? Simple. Our players don't believe it's possible. We start out playing to protect what we have.... Nothing.How do we change this? Play some football and try to score more than them instead of trying to nick a goal and defend like we are at Rourke's Drift. John Keating 97 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:03:38 There's no denying our recent results are shocking against the RS but to be honest we've never really had a hold over them, even in the best of times.Since the formation of the Premier League I do believe it has become more of a mental issue throughout the Club.Getting the next win over them is and will be huge for the youngsters a lot of them are just becoming immune to it.As we've discussed on other threads for the youngsters' sakes I'd be more than happy for the RS to have 90% possession have 50 attempts on goal as long as we win it by one in time added on. Brian Harrison 98 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:48:29 Just to address the question of not attracting the younger supporters because of the lack of results. A survey was posted yesterday showing Everton had the highes number of under-22s attending on a regular basis which was 26%. So that puts the nonsense of losing our young fan base, I think John Davies mentioned the number of young people going the game and that at the moment gives me great pleasure.I think Paul Tran (#88) said he cant think of a manager who turned up at a club in a mess and turned into a paradise of trophies and winning football. Paul you may be to young to remember Brian Clough. My one regret is that John Moores didn't have the balls to appoint Clough when he left Derby, as I believe he would have given us the foundation that Shankly gave the other lot. The problem with Everton is our appointment of managers apart from a couple of exceptions is terrible. Maybe Moores was frightened of Clough just like the FA were. I would just add for those too young to remember Clough what he did with Derby was on a shoe string. Maybe Moores was remembering what Clough said to the derby chairman, Sam Longsdon when at pre season Clough had bought 2 players without telling Longsdon. Longsdon confronted Clough asking who gave him the authority to buy these players. Clough said Sam just go back to the boardroom polish the league trophy and keep out of football matters. Jim Bennings 99 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:50:54 John Keating We had a hold over them in the 90s.1992...Everton 2-1 Liverpool 1993...Everton 2-0 Liverpool 1994...Everton 2-0 Liverpool 1995...Liverpool 0-0 Everton 1995...Liverpool 1-2 Everton 1996...Everton 1-1 Liverpool 1996...Liverpool 1-1 Everton 1997...Everton 1-1 Liverpool 1997...Everton 2-0 Liverpool 1998...Liverpool 1-1 Everton 1998...Everton 0-0 Liverpool 1999... Liverpool 0-1 Everton Imagine a decade of results like that now???It could have been even better if Mikel Madar hadnt missed an open goal at the Kop End in 1998!!!! Steve Carse 100 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:57:04 John (97) "never"?? When I was a lad they were't even in our division and the derby match results had us way out in front on matches won. ps: Anyone out there know exactly when they overtook us on derby victories? Brian Harrison 102 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:10:33 Jim,I agree, we would be delighted with that set of results, but I read some time ago that they have won more derbies at Goodison than we have and scored more goals at Goodison, not a great record. Tony Abrahams 103 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:14:00 Just confirms what you wrote in an earlier post, Jim, because 1999 was the year Agent Kenwright (It's quite possible, given his acting credentials) took over! John Keating 104 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:48:21 Jim (#99), Steve (#100),I go back to the 50sJust quickly:50s won 1, lost 260s. Won 6, drawn 6, lost 570s. Won 3, drawn 10, lost 1080s. Won 7, drawn 8, lost 1790s Won 7, drawn 9, lost 700s. Won 3, drawn 7, lost 1210s. Won 1, drawn 7, lost 9In all competitions.Now I just do not see anywhere where as I said we never really had it over them. Even my favourite team of the 60s didn't grind them into the ground, though that decade and the 90s saw us pretty even Rick Tarleton 105 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:53:58 Steve Carse (69), within Liverpool itself, the city is fairly evenly divided between red and blue and to local fans of both sides, the game matters. But that is only half the story. Liverpool are now a global entity. They have many Scandinavian and Irish fans and to these fans and to all the Liverpool fans around the UK, like the BBC weatherman who said "Come on you Reds" on Friday night, the United game is the derby for such fans.I live in rural Rutland, I see little kids with, in numerical order, Man Utd shirts, Liverpool shirts, Chelsea shirts... Only my grandson wears an Everton shirt. Someone above posted about the way Shankly created a whole mood around Liverpool by cultivating the press. Catterick, while equally successful, shunned the media. Liverpool began the process of picking up fans all over the place, Everton didn't.Financially, this has cost us dearly. I read somewhere that ticket sales at some clubs accounts for less than 10% of income. This situation of the Everton mindset in these games is quite complex. For some reason, our players and perhaps us supporters too, go into the derby game with even less confidence than we have against the other teams in the top six.Money is the main factor, but there are others as well including the whole post Heysel repercussions. If Allardyce can get one of his many helpers to alter the mindset before the Goodison derby then he will have done something that Moyes, Martinez, and Koeman singularly failed to do. Brian Denton 106 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:11:50 What's with this 'Pinkies'? Reminds me of the time as a kid when I read The Hornet - they did a piece on Everton and assured their readers that the Everton fans called Joe Royle 'Lighthouse'. Left me scratching my [9 yr old] head, as I'd been to several games at Goodison by then, and had never heard anyone call Joe that. Colin Glassar 107 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:13:16 Rick, great post and very true. We started to fall behind them in the early 70s after the disastrous reigns of Catterick and Bingham. Even when Gordon Lee had us challenging at the top we still tripped over ourselves.Apart from a few years in the 80s, we've been shit for the last 40 years and have stagnated as a club but you can't keep an Evertonian down for long and it's that eternal hope that keeps us going.Btw, does Rutland TV still exist? Derek Thomas 108 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:39:24 Of course, it's about the brand now. Due to the fact I find it hard to stay out until 3am and pour ale down my neck... well not at the time I don't, just the next day, anyway, the last one I watched 'live' as it were, via TV was the 3-3. This was at the Pig 'n' Whistle, Brisbane.The place was packed to the rafters with RS, mostly under 40, most wearing shirts; there were 3 Blues... one with a shirt me; my 2 lads think shirt-wearing is naff... they may be right.One Blue shirt... as some Aussie said, "That's not a brand, This is a brand!!!' Jay Wood[BRZ] 109 Posted 07/01/2018 at 22:47:14 For anyone who bears to view it, here is a full list of Merseyside derby results, including testimonials! We're leading them in that category, you'll be pleased to know...LinkAs to the question of when they finally overhauled us by having more wins than defeats against us, by my calculations it was not until game 140 (of the 230 games series until now), a 3-1 defeat at Anfield on 7 November, 1981. A full 87 years after game 1 of the derby.They pulled level with us twice in all that time at 3 wins each after just 8 games way back in 1899, then 3 more times in the late 70s before talking the overall lead for the first time as I said above in 1981.We have not gained ascendancy over them in the win stakes since, nor even drawn level with them. The ratio of wins they have achieved since 1981 has seen them inexorably pull further and further ahead. It currently stands 92-66 in their favour.Dunno what others think, but a year after the sublime Everton team won the title in 1969-70, we clashed in the FA Cup semi-final at Old Trafford in March 1971. Comfortably winning the game at half time with a goal by Bally, still playing well we contrived to lose 2-1. They went on to lose the final to Arsenal (who won the double that year), but rose to be the dominant team of the 70s and 80s, only briefly interrupted by us in the mid-80s. In retrospect, I see that as a very pivotal moment in our respective histories. Everton seemed well placed to be the dominant team of the 1970s. Instead, Harry Catterick's health and judgement deteriorated rapidly, Bally was sold and that beautiful side broken up and we entered a wilderness period and have encountered very few thirst-quenching oases since. Bobby Thomas 110 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:06:20 Steve CarseI think it may have been the mid- to late-80s that they overtook us on derby victories. That's an educated guess, by the way.Aren't they equal with us on wins at Goodison now as well? John Pierce 111 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:06:45 This thread is a good example of staid thinking, conventional thought and the denial of the changing market place. Versus the small few, but growing, that accept the failure to adapt, change and most of all lead is at the root of the issue, whether we beat Liverpool or not. The time for patience, method and more conventional schools of thought are ebbing away, if not defunct. If the fanbase cannot or won't be dragged into change, it's very difficult to accept the criticism doled out to the club for not doing the same. Everton have great history and tradition but our repeated conventional approach has seen us slip off the radar and we are defined as a relic of the past.Take the manager: I'm sorry you have to rinse and repeat until you get guy who can improve and simultaneously deal with expectations. But no people plead patience, give the man a chance, we aren't a sacking club. It won us nothing. Chelsea, Spurs, Man City, Sunderland, Watford, even laterly Man Utd all change managers more often than not. Well perhaps if we were we'd have the right guy by now? The average tenure is 18 months; hint. Have your nostalgia, memories and a match going experience which enriches you. As a fanbase, unless we modernise and demand better, there will be more articles like this searching for cosmic redress! John Keating 112 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:20:41 That's some link Jay awful reading.As I mentioned in my post 104, I can only go back to the late 50s and it's been bloody awful all my life time. A few par times in the 60s and 90s. Our good decade of the 80s was surprisingly shit too!Shankly certainly got them psyched up when he arrived and just got a load of self-belief into the Club after relegation and coming back up.That self-belief and arrogance towards us has stayed, I'm afraid. Maybe one of those sports psychologists could help us but we need some bloody thing.Recently has been a nightmare, especially for the youngsters, but it's never really been good. John Keating 113 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:28:16 John (#111),If you look at the article, it's about our results against the RS.If you look at my post 104 and Jays 109, you will see every manager we've had since Carey has failed to put them in their place, including Kendall and Catterick, our most successful managers since the War.Your post seems to imply this is just something recent. Far from it, I'm afraid. Bobby Thomas 114 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:44:10 Brian Harrison #98 Clough would only have done that if he'd had Peter Taylor with him. Still on Everton managerial appointments of that era, there was a two part interview with Jimmy Armfield on BBC 5 (Five Live, 5 Sport or whatever it is), and he mentioned that John Moores offered him the Everton job around '73 when he was early into his managerial career at Bolton. He felt that he wasn't quite ready, and expressed this to John Moores, who countered that he felt Armfield could do it quite easily. Armfield asked for a day to think it over and it was agreed that he'd ring him the next day. Armfield rang Moores, and restated that he didn't feel he was ready for a job that big, just yet. John Moores apparently just said "Ok!" and put the phone down.The Bobby Robson balls-up in 1977 was ridiculous. Met John Moores and Phillip Carter, and agreed a 10-year contract!!!. Robson just asked for 24 hours of hush-hush so he could take care of things at Ipswich face-to-face. Robson was assured discretion would not be an issue. He woke to "Robson for Everton" headlines in the Daily Express, and pulled out of the deal as he felt he couldn't trust the board.Magic. Jay Wood[BRZ] 115 Posted 07/01/2018 at 00:40:01 Methinks John Pierce @ 111 you are using this thread is a vehicle to project some (legitimate) thoughts you may hold about the club and its fans, but I really don't see within this thread examples of "staid thinking, conventional thought and the denial of the changing market place" you claim.You are referencing a topic which is not the main thrust of the thread, although related.Writing as you do you gives the impression you believe you are in a extremely small minority of Everton supporters, blessed with precognitive, omniscient powers, able to see and understand better what the majority in the herd deny or are ignorant of.Sorry to burst that particular bubble John, but there are plenty of TW contributors including posters within this thread, who have spoken over many years and very eloquently on the malaise that permeates through the club and the poor practices of the custodians on many levels.Addressing your point about the manager, you clearly are not paying close attention to what has happened to Everton managers since Moshiri arrived less than 2 years ago.The manager he inherited, 3 years in the job, got us to 2 semi-finals but just 4 months after taking over, Moshiri binned him before the final game of the season.Ronald Koeman, recruited by Moshiri in June 2016. Decent enough first season. Woeful start to his second season. Moshiri binned him just 9 games into this season, just 16 months into his contract.David Unsworth appointed as caretaker manager. Who knows? If he did a decent enough job, maybe he might have been given more time. He didn't. He wasn't. He survived 5 PL games and a couple of Europa League games and was packed off back to the U-23s.Sam Allardyce appointed on a short 18-month contract only.Isn't that all evidence of the primary owner of the club conforming to the manager recruitment model you propose? An 18 month audition and if they don't get results "Rinse and repeat until you get guy who can improve and simultaneously deal with expectations."With regard to Allardyce, the overwhelming majority of TWers did not want him as manager. But having been appointed, a good number of that majority quite reasonably "plead for patience to give the man a chance."Barely 2 months and 10 games in the job, given the road crash that he inherited, are you seriously advocating sacking him already John?To seemingly berate what you imply, or rather explicitly state, is an overly nostalgic, dinosaur fanbase incapable of modernising smacks to me that you hold fellow Blues in contempt.I think they are a bit more worldly wise than you credit them with John.PS - if you truly believe the OP is hoping for cosmic redress as the solution to the conundrum that is Everton FC, you clearly didn't read closely enough or comprehend its core subject matter. Darren Hind 116 Posted 08/01/2018 at 01:03:04 A lot of people researching a lot of stats to confirm what most Evertonians will already know. But, unless you actually get some meat on the bones, the stats are absolutely meaningless.It goes against the grain to acknowledge the achievements of the Red Shite. We are programmed to ignore them, but they were a dominant force at home and abroad for decades. They didn't acquire their world wide fan base by beating us, they were beating fucking everyone. They must have won about ten European trophies.We've gone through periods like this before with our results against them. If memory serves me right, Andy King ended a barren seven-year period against them. A glorious day... but, while they were dominating the game, we were slowly falling from grace... and it's gotten a whole lot worse since Murdoch turned the game on its head. We no longer just get beat by "them", we get beat by all of the "big boys".The game has changed. Nine times out of ten, the Sky darlings will get the decision over the other team... and, as "the other team", we have had to suffer some howling decisions in our encounters with them too numerous and too painful to list.To be honest, losing derbies these days is even more painful. They are no longer one of the best teams in the world. That "excuse" has gone... but the memories of their domination (often as a result of those sickening decisions) has somehow affected our mindset. Long after their domestic and European dominance, they were still finding the right player with the right mindset for these games. Only fleetingly have we produced "the right kind of player" for these games players like Cahill and Big Dunc were often asked to carry all of our hopes into battle.The good news is there is always another derby coming along; if we were to twat them 5-0 at Goodison Park in the spring, all that history will be reduced to just that history... we won't let them get a word in. We'll spend the next few months slaughtering them in every alehouse in the city and it will be all the more sweeter.Our day(s) will come... I just wish it/they would fucking hurry up!! Bill Watson 117 Posted 08/01/2018 at 01:45:30 John (#44),I agree we appear to have the majority of the local fan base, especially amongst the youth. I live opposite a park and most of the kids wear Everton tops which certainly wasn't the case 25 years ago.The two recent matches against Liverpool really were an eye opener, to me, as to how many foreign and out-of-town fans they actually have. The bus, there and back, was packed with them bedecked in brand new Liverpool gear including a few 50/50 scarves. The guy next to me even had a song sheet he was reading: I wonder if they're included in the tourist package? It really would be interesting to discover just how many Liverpool seats are sold to the package operators. I disagree with you saying fathers shouldn't allow their kids to support LFC. You can't make someone support a club if they don't want to. I've supported Everton all my life and have missed very few home games since my first in 1958. I'm lucky to still be fit enough to get to most aways, too, and I'm a shareholder to boot.So I'm a Blue through and through yet I have a son who has a season ticket on the Kop. He was a Junior Evertonian with a season ticket as a child but switched, post Hillsborough. That must have been the clincher because we still had a good side in those days.The whole family are Blues apart from him but there's nothing you can do about it. The only plus was that, over the years, it saved me a fortune in replica kits. John Pierce 118 Posted 08/01/2018 at 01:49:20 Jay, all roads lead to Rome, where the psyche of the club and its fanbase are concerned. Results against Liverpool are just the tip of the iceberg. Being a local contest sure it hurts more. It's a microcosm of everything we are bad at, off and on field. Getting beat by Liverpool is to be forced to look in the mirror, it sharpens the focus. But our prevailing attitude as a fanbase is for patience, slow to adapt and not demand more in a very cut throat global world. As for the manager, yes we are getting there, so fair dos. It took us 6 months too long to stop Koeman meandering and Allardyce should never have been appointed. But yeah I get what you are saying. Hard not to be over-zealous when the typing gets going. Call it my own delayed reaction to Friday night. As for holding many in contempt, nah every blue is entitled to their view, I know no better than the next person. I do think that we should try a very different approach to make up the chasm that exists between us and what resembles a decent club. We are a parody that makes Jossy's Giants look professional. I've been patient, 20-odd years, I think that's enough time to say hey guys lets be radical, innovative and be at the head of the wave. That type of change is harsh, and a risk. Something I believe too many find unpalatable and focus on the people trying to initiate or support change rather than the change itself. And I know it might fail, spectacularly too. But I forget the last time I truly enjoyed a game. You know bone rattling, adrenaline-fuelled, hoarse-throated game. That's my catalyst for change. Oh lastly if I have wandered from the path, there ain't a thread on this site that doesn't veer from one thing to another! Bob Parrington 119 Posted 08/01/2018 at 04:52:15 John G Davies @ 44 Cracking' Post on which I believe most missed the point. My two sons, my daughter and my grandsons all support Everton.My view on where we are is that sometimes one goes backwards or sideways before making real progress. I have to say that I think Moyes was a "steady", Martinez was a "sideways" and Koeman (who shouldn't have been) was a "backwards" step.Much as I had misgivings with Big and Little Sam, I am gaining respect after reading up on Big Sam and watching short Sam really passionate on the sideline. I believe this is the start of the future in which we will start to beat the RS. I like the fact that Big Sam is "Balls and all" and won't take any nonsense. John G Davies 120 Posted 08/01/2018 at 06:23:23 Thanks, Bob. I think most did miss the point I was making. The figures in the research showed we have the most young fans. Can't see that changing anytime soon. Eric Myles 122 Posted 08/01/2018 at 06:51:39 I think the father's / mother's Evertonianship may well still influence kids in Merseyside to support us. The kids would be at school with like-minded supporters.But I see a problem where the family is farther afield in UK or even overseas where there would be more outside influences from peers and being the only Evertonian would be an oddity.Certainly is as an adult. Paul Tran 123 Posted 08/01/2018 at 06:55:57 Brian (#98). I knew there'd be one somewhere! (Un)fortunately I am old enough to remember Clough at Derby, Forest and on ITV as a fabulous pundit. Particularly the first game of 77-78 when they tore us apart at Goodison Park.I would loved to have had him at Goodison, but I wonder if he wanted too much control for Moores's liking? Darren Hind 124 Posted 08/01/2018 at 06:59:24 I see the references to Unsworth have resurfaced. Unsworth inherited a much worse situation than Allardyce, yet he took us five places up the table and handed over a team with much of the confidence restored (See Pickford's recent remarks) A few on here didn't give Rhino a chance. They were on him from the off, making as much fuss over a dead rubber as they could. Nobody associated with the club actually cared about that game. Yet many of those who howled about it are the same people are now calling for patience for Sam. Funny that.Anyway, if you want to analyse why we have not beaten the shite in eight years you must first analyse the courage of the men who have lead us into those games.We all desperately want a change around in our results against the shite but we have spent most of that time "being patient" with Martinez, Koeman and Allardyce... worked a treat for us that has Bob Parrington 125 Posted 08/01/2018 at 07:03:43 Eric (#123), we've lived in Adelaide, South Australia since 1986. Our sons live in Melbourne and Sydney and our daughter lives in Portland, Oregon USA.This might confound your theory????? Dick Fearon 126 Posted 08/01/2018 at 07:51:59 I am as angry as anyone about the decades of subservience we have shown towards our cock sure neighbours. My wife and I were on holiday in the Liverpool and in Anfield when Super Kev scored our winning goal. There was a winning vibe in the air that night that defied punditry predictions. Little Franny Jeffers showed he could not be cowed by their vigourous tackling and man-mountain Vesterveld. After a bout of handbags between the pair of them, both were sent off.Before departing Franny turned toward our fans and got a huge roar of support as he raised a fist in a show of defiance.After that swine Gerrard almost cut Super Kevin Campbell in half or perhaps because of it the volume of Blues support far drowned out that of the Koppites.To my everlasting regret, my three long suffering evertonian sons were at home in Australia and missed what was probably our Premier League finest hour. Kim Vivian 127 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:34:06 I live in Kent. Back in '94 midway through that ghastly season my eldest son (who was 11 at the time and had yet to experience Goodison) said in frustration after losing another game "that's it' I'm going to go and support someone else". "That's fine", I told him "but you will also have to find somewhere else to live".He wasn't really on the turn and of course he has never looked back. Both my other lads have also, as you probably know, embraced the Blue family passionately. We don't get to Goodison much but take in away games when they're in our general neck of the woods when we can. You do see Everton shirts around down here where I live, not just on relocated scousers but also locals. The point is, when you do see them you fucking know your talking to a real Everton supporter. That's nice. There's a real camaraderie among us.So many of the RS, Man Utd, Man City these days mob you know are probably just bandwagon fans. Do we feel superior? you bet your Blue life we do. Anyone else can kiss me tat. Rahman Talib 128 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:35:29 I blame Peter Johnson.He damaged us structurally before he bailed.As a result, for 20 years, we could not win at Anfield Amit Vithlani 129 Posted 08/01/2018 at 12:42:57 Eric @ 122"But I see a problem where the family is farther afield in UK or even overseas where there would be more outside influences from peers and being the only Evertonian would be an oddity."I can't comment on the experiences of others, but in my own case, overcoming this "oddity" is all about the story telling. I became a blue at school in Nairobi, Kenya, thanks to our chapel priest who used vivid imagery to liken the blues to good, and the reds to evil. Being "odd" but "good" therefore delivered the courage to stand up to the glory hunters.Ditto my own boy. He was already sold on the club before I took him to his first game against Stoke this season (we flew in from overseas for the occasion). I had got him there by recounting (almost biblical like) the suffering which the followers of the true blue nation had to endure over the years, but along the way our brave knights had delivered a few bloody noses to the evil dragons. He knows that some battles may have been lost but the war was still going on, just as in good versus evil. Tony Abrahams 130 Posted 08/01/2018 at 12:47:09 Thank god "Brilliant Bill" was there to save us, Rahman! Amit Vithlani 131 Posted 08/01/2018 at 12:50:13 I would add, that when I compare the tone amongst Evertonians there is always a basic level of respect, even though we are a broad church. It is as if our suffering binds us. It makes it easier to be a long-distance follower because, when we do encounter fellow apostles, the warmth and appreciation is always there.If I compare this to how the RS behave, it is chalk and cheese. The supporters clubs here in Nairobi have been known to erupt in fights amongst local factions. After Coutinho's departure to Barca, there was open name calling, abuse and insults hurled between pro and anti FSG camps. My brother is an RS and he recounted this back to me.Locally, the RS fan base churns heavily many new followers each year, but many also lose interest due to the lack of success and sometimes the toxic nature of the atmosphere. Whilst there is no EFC supporters club per se here, there are a few followers and if we do congregate to watch a game, there is nothing but warmth.It can't be a coincidence. Jay Woods[LAT] 132 Posted 08/01/2018 at 12:53:28 My father is a Man City fan and the years of suffering he had to endure were nothing ordinary. But when it turned around for them, boy, did it turn.That said, living in hope that we'll one day be consistently competitive is like hoping to win the lottery. Whole lifetimes can pass by without the team you support ever coming good, which is why I am not that keen to encourage my son to be a football fan.Personally, I can't turn it off for myself, and I know you're all the same, despite the lingering malcontentedness it brings. When you realise that even the fans of Bayern, Real and Barca are annoyed about footballing matters most of the time, you know that enduring happiness and fulfilment will never be found in football. Tony Abrahams 133 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:08:15 Amit, I was in the gym before and I could hear a few reds going on saying that we hate them. Couldn't help myself, and told them fuckin' right we do, and I know that you fuckers hate us to.Big difference is we are just bitter! Bitter for being honest, but it's better than being a snide! Alls I heard after the pen the other week was them bastards fuming for at least five days, but the common theme after Friday, is everyone gets bad decisions?I couldn't bring myself to be like them bastards ever, gracious in victory, but only when they get things their own fucking way though. Brian Harrison 134 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:20:02 Looking at all the different posts, I guess I will have to stop taking the mickey out of my red mates insisting that half of their fans don't live in this Country never mind this City. As a lot of the recent posts come from Brazil and Australia and all over the world. Mind, as long as they support the Blues, who cares. Ian Edwards 135 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:30:40 Liverpool fans can't really gloat about trophy wins at present. They haven't won a League title since 1990 28 years and have only one Cup in the last 12 years a League Cup on pens. They have spent over a billion. John Keating 136 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:31:43 I don't know if I'm "bitter" but I do get pissed off sometimes when I think where we could have been and what we could have won but for the European ban.Who are bitter though are the RS every season that goes by without them winning the league.I absolutely loved it when Stevie G handed Chelsea that win at Mordor.After years of nothing City are now the benefactors of the foreign millions. Good on them; wish it was us, though, and as long as it's never THEM! John Keating 137 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:44:05 Brian, just something regarding your post.I was born and brought up in Everton to an all blue family so there was nothing else.When I heat these lads from oversea who haven't the same background but have the same passion, many of them being blues since we last won anything, then they truly are remarkable.They are really true Evertonians. Lenny Kingman 138 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:44:44 Think on the bright side, lads. There's one thing the hated reds can't win at Anfield. The Premier League.After a mere 26 attempts, no sign of the branded trophy arriving in their far-from-overflowing trophy cabinet. Always brightens my day when that fact is recalled. Jay Wood[BRZ] 139 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:58:30 John @ 118...Thank you for acknowledging how differently Moshiri is operating when compared to Kenwright with regard to managers. Effectively, he has already had 4 managers in less than 2 years since he joined us.Compare that to things on Kenwright's watch. Kenwright inherited Walter Smith from Peter Johnson and only dismissed him when things were looking really desperate.Moyes could have stayed for as long as he wanted given his cosy relationship with the chairman, but jumped himself. He wasn't pushed by Kenwright.I think most Blues will recall the toe-curling 'What a manager!' comment by Kenwright about Roberto Martinez with his arm drapped around Moshiri's shoulders on the latter's first game as the main man after our 2-0 FA Cup quarter final win at Goodison over Chelsea.You can stake a reasonable bet it was Moshiri rather than Kenwright who took the decision to give Roberto the hook.Add to that Unsworth's own comments on how frequently he spoke daily to Kenwright whilst caretaker manager, and it is more than a reasonable assumption who Kenwright was lobbying for. So, effectively, 3 managers under Kenwright in 16 years, only 2 appointed by him and only one categorically sacked by him.Compare that to Moshiri's 4 managers in under 2 years, 2 full-time appointments, 2 dismissals and another 'retired' back to the U-23s.Everton under Moshiri then DO do sackings.As to your other points, you will find me very firmly in the camp that does NOT wish to be restrictive or prescriptive as to what a contributor posts. I campaigned strongly for that in the recent debate on the post limit rule Lyndon introduced.I also get annoyed when people squeal a thread has 'gone off topic'. And...? All threads take on a life of their own. Oft times, a sub-theme or two that develops within threads proves more interesting than the original subject matter.I make absolutely no such accusation against you on that score, John.Rather, I challenged what I believed was your misportrayal of what this thread demonstrated, as described by you in the first paragraph of your post @ 111.Similarly, reading that post, your words strongly implied that you were in a small minority of 'savvier' Evertonians, rather than choosing to run with the herd mentality of a majority fanbase you described as:Nostalgic relic of the past failure to adapt slow to change and lead [following] conventional schools of thought [that are] defunct [who] cannot or won't be dragged into change [unable to] modernise and demand better.I will repeat again, TW constantly demonstrates our fanbase is a bit more worldly-wise and hungry for real change than you label them. Dave Abrahams 140 Posted 08/01/2018 at 14:38:32 Tony (#133), going out with my mates tonight for a Chinese meal, it's one of our birthday nights. Anyway if/when we get round to the match, the three Reds will have to admit their penalty wasn't a penalty, because the three of them were adamant that Everton's wasn't a penalty, same as Klopp had to admit it wasn't a penalty after the game on Friday. I'll let my mates tell me why it was a penalty before I let them know what fuckin' hypocrites they are, it won't put them off their meal, as we know "Outraged at everything – absolutely ashamed of nothing." By the way, none of them have been to the match for 30 years or more. Tony Abrahams 141 Posted 08/01/2018 at 15:05:25 Get them all a pint of bitter, Dave, and I'll give you the money when I see you! Sean Patton 142 Posted 08/01/2018 at 16:30:13 Ian @135Damn right mate and that should be repeated ad nauseam from now until March because it becomes a self-fulfilled media prophecy that they are this great team. Fab four this blah blah the best team going forward in the country behind Man City yada yada, they were likened to the red arrows on Friday. Yet they sit only 4th in the table having won just over half their matches! Jay Harris 143 Posted 08/01/2018 at 16:36:19 Everything goes in cycles.At the start of the Premier League we were level pegging with Man Utd on titles.What we failed to do and still fail to do is see the opportunity and tidal wave of potential income and exploit it.We have Liverpooltv, Chelseatv, Man Utdtv etc all on their own broadcast channels. Evertontv is like a small local company.The thinking and planning at the club has been small-time and local under Kenwright instead of seeing and exploiting the worldwide audience that was out there.One of the reasons we can't beat the RS and others is the quality and mentality of the players we recruit.They all have a nasty win-at-all-costs mentality. We have the nice guys that don't fall over screaming for a red card etc.Now I'm happy to forego the lunacy of the likes of Suarez but would love our players to have some of that desire or desperation to win.Only when we have these sort of players and a management that are prepared to stand up to the FA and media will we start to recover our place at the top table.First off, Kenwright and his culture must go and we need to start to show some ambition in the transfer market buy the "best" instead of the "best value". David Barks 144 Posted 08/01/2018 at 16:38:27 Ian, Didn't they win the FA Cup in 2006, the League Cup in 2012, and the Champions League in 2005? Meanwhile we can't beat them. James Hughes 145 Posted 08/01/2018 at 16:55:27 Dave A. Very well phrased in regards to:"Outraged at everything – absolutely ashamed of nothing."They are not alone either, spent Saturday night with my Chelski obsessed brother-in-law and his mates. I just don't mention football anymore. Phil Walling 146 Posted 08/01/2018 at 18:29:08 Moshiri's ignorance over football matters has ensured that his impact here can be likened to that of Randy Lerner at Aston Villa. The only difference is that Lerner was spending his own money whilst our guy has been able to waste the Club's share of the TV riches as well as selling the' family silver'.Lerner was often quoted as saying 'You are only ever one manager away from disaster' and the likelihood is that it will prove just as true here. Perhaps 'a fool and the club's money etc,' is a more apt adage with us but with Kenwright showing him the way to balls everything up everything he touches, the ex-Arsenal man is well down the slippery slope in record time.Not one of us forecast that 'a moneyman' would take us back to the days of double figures League places and total crap football but, hey, we should have known it was bound to go wrong with Bill still exerting his influence!Shame on them both, I say! Brian Denton 147 Posted 08/01/2018 at 18:48:57 Jay, at the start of the Premier League, we were ahead of Man Utd on Titles (9 to their 7).I'm sure I've made this point before. Stan Schofield 148 Posted 08/01/2018 at 19:43:53 Ian@135: In response to the occasional outbursts of arrogance from reds, particularly those that suggest we're shite, I enjoy quoting some stats. Starting with the fact that they've never win the Premier League. Also, for example, over the last 15 years they've averaged 68 points and league placing of 5th, whilst we've averaged 58 points and league placing of 8th. So, if we're shite, they're just 10 points on average better than shite. In comparison, Man Utd (whom they hate) have averaged 81 points, and the difference between that and Liverpool is greater than the difference between us and Liverpool. Plus, the a main driving force for the Man Utd success is Rooney (whom they hate). They tend to go quiet in the face of Premier League stats. Basically, they are a 'contender' but never a winner these days. They're better than us, but only marginally. They're in a similar position to us, wanting to be great again, but failing. But the media would suggest that they're at the top, and of course they believe that hype, so they're deluded. At least we're not deluded. But of course, all of this is really irrelevant, it's just enjoyable to see their faces when you have a grasp of and state the facts. I only state these things in response to their stupidity; otherwise, I'd say nothing.The only thing that matters is us winning, against all teams. They just happen to be one team. We need to get our heads around that, and treat them accordingly, just like any other team. Jay Harris 149 Posted 08/01/2018 at 22:33:57 I seem to remember that, Brian, well spotted and then more to the point. Phil Walling 150 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:04:36 Marginally bette? It's a fecking big margin at present. Just shows how Evertonians' ambitions have gradually fallen away so we are to put up with being 10 points behind shite every year!That's only about 250 points in total since 'football went global'! Stan Schofield 151 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:16:36 Phil, it's not a matter of 'putting up' with anything, it's simply a case of making deluded idiots shut their gobs. Eric Myles 152 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:14:17 Bob (#125) and Amit (#129). Well done, both of you, for keeping the blue flag flying in the face of adversity.My own started out following her dad's passion but soon became distracted by other things. Dave Abrahams 153 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:21:59 Tony (#141), I've got to put my hands up and admit football wasn't mentioned all night. We had a good banquet in the Mayflower, Duke Street; not a bad gaff... in fact very nice. Birthday card was handed over with a tenner off each of us in the card, the recipient was 78 like a rare vinyl 78 record, so six of us with a total of 452 years between us had a fuckin' good night with not an angry word between us, and that doesn't happen very often.The only sad part was the eldest member of the gang, 83 next month, hasn't been very well for the last few months and couldn't make it, so we toasted his good health and remembered friends who have passed on, Blues and Reds. Bob Parrington 154 Posted 09/01/2018 at 11:44:57 Good on ya, Dave. Would have been nice to be there. Life's too short and the theory of relativity (the real one i.e. Time accelerates the older you get!!) hits in pretty hard.We will overcome without it being stated in black and white appears to be a theme on the thread. We will regain our position at the top of the pile. It is just a matter of time!Long live Nil Satis Nisi Optimum! Tony Abrahams 155 Posted 09/01/2018 at 11:56:52 Good post Bob, I liked that mate.Dave, if football never got mentioned, then there will be fuckin murder next week, so Ive still got to pay for 3 bitters! Dave Abrahams 156 Posted 09/01/2018 at 14:39:23 Bob (#154) never heard that one Bob, "Tme accelerates the older you get", is there any way it can be reversed?!!! Jay Woods[LAT] 157 Posted 09/01/2018 at 15:22:59 I think it was Einstein who asserted that the perception of time's passage accelerates as one ages, but I can't see how he could provide empirical evidence for it; it's pretty much all anecdotal and universally agreed through experience. I'm 46 now and feel like a day is much shorter than it was when I was a teenager.I don't necessarily agree that we will ever recover as a club to where we were (i.e. at the pinnacle of the game), at least in the lifetimes of any of us alive today. You could easily envisage an argument for the American draft system, as a means to prevent dynastic club domination, although that's no guarantee either (just ask fans of Detroit in the NFL) and it tends to lower overall standards in the league by spreading quality players around more (which is one theory for the USA's failure to qualify for the next World Cup). Stan Schofield 162 Posted 09/01/2018 at 16:06:45 Regarding getting back to the pinnacle of the game, it'll probably happen if (and only if) we get someone like Usmanov to provide massive bucks like the elite three of Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea. Brent Stephens 163 Posted 09/01/2018 at 16:14:23 Dave "Time accelerates the older you get", is there any way it can be reversed?!!!"Run faster, Dave, and time will slow! Get that fitbit on yer wrist (fitbit, not fit bird that will kill you at your age!). Dave Abrahams 164 Posted 10/01/2018 at 14:12:45 Brent. (163), you tell me a fit bird will kill me, what do think running faster will do do to me for Gods sake !!!!!!!! Brent Stephens 165 Posted 10/01/2018 at 14:15:33 Haha! Fit bird it is, then, Dave. Dave Abrahams 166 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:50:16 Brent, are you crackers??? You know our Tony reads these threads. Ash Moore 167 Posted 11/01/2018 at 23:35:37 It's really as simple as them believing they're better than us and everyone agreeing. No money, the Foxes have two league cups and a Premier League title since we last won anything. ('95 Charity Shield, right?) They at times have been set up to succeed. We have not. Andy Kay 168 Posted 12/01/2018 at 11:56:22 Just wondering wether anyone from Everton FC has put a complaint in to the FA about Lallana deceiving the ref yet. You know, actually standing up for this club for once? Matthew Williams 169 Posted 12/01/2018 at 15:16:40 We have one final chance this season to do 'em, the players must be told to win this game or they will not be wearing the Royal Blue next season.This losing streak has to end, those bastards are just taking the piss now, I want the Blues to start like a fucking train... press, press, press and hurt 'em. But, as others have said, when we've been on top in games we never hammer home the pressure, we slack off within 5-10 minutes and allow them to regroup.We have to keep 'em in the corner & rain down pressure on their week defence... score, then go again, then again... we have to fucking kill 'em off as Man Utd did to teams in the Ferguson era.I don't just wanna beat them, I want us to batter them. It would shake the footballing world if we put those penalty shootout loving twats to the fucking sword... just once... sigh. Add Your Comments In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site. » Log in now Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site. About these ads Find out how to browse ad-free and support ToffeeWeb © ToffeeWeb