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Wednesday, September 12, 2007
Response to Comments on Bad DPS
First off, believing that "most people are dumb" is an adolescent fantasy. Most people are average and want to get better. They just don't know how. What works in one area doesn't work in another area, and that dissonance causes them problems.
If you're a guild working on T4 content, take a WoW Web Stats log of your raid. Or take a look at one of the numerous WWS posts on the Raid and Dungeons forums. Over and over you will see the same mistakes. And it's not even "mistakes" like frost vs fire.
You'll see:
- Hunters not using Steady Shot
- Hunters missing shots
- Rogues using Shiv instead of Sinister Strike/Backstab
- Dagger rogues using Sinister Strike
- Rogues missing attacks
- Rogues using Eviscerate instead of Slice and Dice/Rupture
- Warlocks not keeping DoTs up
- Cat Druids not using Shred
- Mages missing spells
- Mages using many different spells instead of their best spells
- Shadow Priests not keeping DoTs up
You'll see the same mistakes, again and again. And at some point, you have to wonder if there's a reason that all these different people are making the same mistake, and how things could be changed to keep them from making such systemic mistakes.
Also, I'm not saying that healers and tanks are perfect. It's just that our mistakes tend to have immediate consequences, and thus we try to correct them on the very next attempt.
You do occasionally see systemic tank and healer mistakes. Tree Druids who don't stack Lifeblooms, Priests who spam Flash Heal, Prot Warriors who don't Shield Slam.
(The fact that Paladins only have 2 healing spells, one of which is spammed on a tank, makes it pretty hard to have systemic errors. About the only one I can think of is paladins not using Lay On Hands.)
Healer/tank mistakes tend to be of the immediate, tactical variety, such as healing the wrong person, or BoPing a warlock with Moroe's Garrote instead of saving it for a healer/mage. The thing about tactical mistakes is that you realize the mistake quite soon after you make it. That "feedback loop" is there, and that makes it easier to improve.
37 comments:
- Anonymous2:19 PM, September 12, 2007
This still doens't explain the flamebait nature of your OP. It was not simply titled "Why are Players so Bad". You state in a round about way the DPS is a bunch of tards in general. It's really quite dissapointing compared to the usually high quality of your writing and ideas.
More than ever DPS now requires skill in raids and does have measurable results for failure. Talented DPS should not be expected any more than talented tanking or healing. If DPS can manage to keep up the heat on a target while still doing all the other tasks it needs to, they should be touted just as much as the tank who hold a mountain of aggro while mitigating, or the healer keeping the raid up during challenges.
Your offhand slights just reflect your inexperience with playing DPS skillfully. If you knew what you were talking about you would have the same respect for them.
What you are implying in your post is that any non tard can do great DPS and also juggle all the other factors. And you are outraged that you have so many tards not living up to your wishes. You're wrong. Good, talented, intelligent DPS can do this. Regular DPS will have trouble with it. Pat your skilled DPS on the back, rather than just scoffing at those with average skill.
Once you know what it takes to achieve it, you'll have more respect for it. Once you know what it takes to achieve it, you'll have more respect for it.
I have mad respect for T4 dps who can crack, say, 900 DPS. DPS who rides the threatline are awesome.
But most DPS players, especially at the T4 level, are nowhere near that. I just think that asking for 600 DPS is not an excessive demand, and is more in line with basic competancy.
What you are implying in your post is that any non tard can do great DPS and also juggle all the other factors.
If "great DPS" is defined by 600 DPS or so, then yes, that is what I am implying.
Also, avoiding environmental hazards is not a great hardship. If it hasn't escaped your attention, us healers have to avoid the same hazards, only we have to watch 25 changing health bars at the same time.- Anonymous3:25 PM, September 12, 2007
Another intersting factor some mediocre DPS often neglects is the long term push against threat.
Here I mean riding close to the threat cap for a reasobable amount of time and holding back if need be at least at the start. You can save your big threat dump (vanish, soulshatter, invisibility, etc) for the most long term impact. For a longer fight this could be like 1/2 way or 2/3 through depending upon the fight. After the dump you can pretty much go balls to the wall on DPS until you start climbing back up into the danger zone again. After practice and experience with aparticular fight you can learn when to do the big dump to maximize this heightened DPS period.
Of course lower geared or poorly skilled DPS will never have to worry about the threat cap, so they can do thier semi-afk sleepy DPS the entire fight :D - Anonymous3:52 PM, September 12, 2007
As a healer who recently respecced for DPS after two years of raiding as two healers I can honestly say I agree with almost everything Coriel had to say in his original post. It is INARGUABLE that healers and tanks face different feedback. Groups can get by with bad DPS far easier than they can bad healers or tanks, this gives much less incentive and feedback for DPS. DPS'ers are not "tards", are not dumb people in of themselves, it's entirely environmental and incontestable. There's tons of bad healers and bad tanks, but relative to one another, healers and tanks are more skilled ON AVERAGE.
ON AVERAGE. You rogues, mages, locks, shadow priests reading this blog are not idiots who suck, the fact that you read wow blogs probably means you are mostly shining examples of your classes, but on average there is simply less feedback and incentive for your classes to improve, end of story.
-Agrippina, Perenolde - Anonymous3:55 PM, September 12, 2007
"This still doens't explain the flamebait nature of your OP. It was not simply titled "Why are Players so Bad". You state in a round about way the DPS is a bunch of tards in general. It's really quite dissapointing compared to the usually high quality of your writing and ideas."
Where does Coriel fault the people who play DPS'ers at all? Both posts lay the blame squarely on game design.
-Agrippina, Perenolde - Anonymous9:45 PM, September 12, 2007
While I agree to an extent that the OP's initial remarks may have seemed somewhat heavy-handed, he does make some good points. A poor DPSer is less likely to attract attention than a poor healer, because other DPSers can compensate for a lack of DPS on the part of a couple people.
Of course some of the general statements I saw in the original post were somewhat suspect. For example, trying to max hit rating for certain classes is not optimal, enhancement shamans are advised to avoid maxing hit rating in exchange for more crit and attack power because you get better returns after a certain point. There really aren't that many general DPS truisms anymore as there is enough variance in each class's mechanics to make such general advice less effective than it used to be.
Finally there is the fact that WoW is a game. People often have a general idea of their character's image, even on non-RP servers. While combat swords may do more DPS than any other rogue spec, it may not fit a player's image for their rogue. Warrior players may like the idea of rampaging with a big two-handed weapon rather than using two one-handers despite the fact that dual wielding is generally better DPS. A certain measure of min-maxing is necessary to progress but don't expect people to play something they don't enjoy just because it works better. A good number of paladins in my guild are ret pallies and we still let them raid despite the fact that most people scoff at ret DPS. Do they top the damage meters? Generally no but they and everyone else have fun, which is really what is most important. I wish people would stop talking about spec. Spec doesn't matter as much as people think it does. Maybe Fire is better than Frost, or Combat Swords is better than Daggers, but it's a matter of a few percent, and is something for the theorycrafters to debate.
A Frost Mage doing 400 DPS is not going to vault to 800 DPS just by speccing Fire.I agree.
The difference between the three roles is as follows:
- If the tank isn't tanking, the healers die (and everyone else a few seconds later)
- If the healer isn't doing at least a decent job of healing, the tank will die (and everyone else will shortly follow)
The DPS role is a much more subtle one. While yes, there are damage meters, people have the tendency to disregard their lower percentage. Tanking / healing mistakes are *much* more noticable, and much quicker to be fixed because of this. In early TBC endgame, a geared and intelligent group of tanks and healers can carry a group through some of Karazhan. Sure, DPS is important, but as you said, "Over and over you will see the same mistakes." I often hear the 'gear excuse', which is silly. I've known certain players to out-DPS those better geared than them. Even though it is 'just a DPS', there is definate 'right way' and 'wrong way.'
Oh, and.. "Cat Druids not using Shred' /sigh- Anonymous7:49 AM, September 13, 2007
Backing away for a bit and looking at it as a game design question, I don't see the "lack of input for DPS" as a game design error or flaw. I see it as a game design choice. Perhaps that's because I played old-school games like Ultima 3 and 4, where there was virtually no feedback, almost everything had to be discovered, and there was no Internet to look stuff up (maybe you could buy a game guide, but it never occurred to us at the time). In WoW, if you want help there are many, many free ways to get it!
Of course, my position does imply that the finger of "blame" is pointed back at the player base... :)
And after all, what can you expect from a pool of 9 million subscribers widely ranging in age, gaming experience, and seriousness about the game?
There will be a WIDE range!
And as I said in a previous post, it's up to the players to figure it out why they fail when they fail. At the root, it's not much different than repeatedly failing a quest or a PUG wiping repeatedly on an instance boss - except that it involves more people (raid) and is a wall that stops further progression. So it seems like a big deal because unlike a quest (where you can level up or get a buddy or do a different quest) or an instance (come back later with a different PUG) a boss stopping raid progression leaves fewer options for solving the problem. Agreed about spec. I mean... bad mouth ret all you want, but if a player wants to go ret, and they commit to being ret, I'll let them into my raid. If they want to go Boomkin, go for it.
IMO, those people who chose these "bad" specs are going to put a hell of a lot more effort into knowing their class and pushing that extra couple of percent out.
For instance, I was the pally officer for my guild, and one of my holy pallies approached me and wanted to go ret. I told him, sure, but only if you commit. He did, and he was ret for the next raid. He came in pretty low on the damage meters, near where the main tank was.
We did a couple of instances, got him some enchants, replaced his weapon (over the course of 1 week), and jumped to #4 on the charts. Over other rogues, mages, locks and such.
It's easy for dps to get lazy. Tanks and healers usually have to stay on top of things, and if they don't, they get yelled at. No one really yells at a mage because he ooms too fast or gets cleaved in half. If a healer gets cleaved in half, well... they catch some flak for it.
Reyia, Frostwolf.- Anonymous8:19 AM, September 13, 2007
One of the posters in the previous thread hit on something I've been increasingly convinced of (apologies for not looking it up for proper credit: lunch break is short).
I'm starting to feel that the role of a casual-raiding guild has become "information source" as much as raid slot source. At least in my own experience, the people who don't want to read EJ every day (or don't have access) for the latest theorycrafting are my friends and peers. I find us increasingly becoming a channel for distributing a lot of these ideas - whether via unofficial class leads, or posts on our site, or homegrown "guides", or simple in-game chatter. I'm also starting to put more of our organizational resources behind this function.
No doubt guilds who'd done the hard(er)core raiding scene had previously identified this need - guild as info clearinghouse. But it's been a discovery for myself and our members. - Anonymous8:39 AM, September 13, 2007
A lot of this talk about DPS having no feedback or being able to get away with playing lazy, is really an outdated mentality. It may have been true when we had 40 folks raiding MC and only 20-30 were really doing he work.
But in 10 man KZ there is no room for even one sleeper (especially if it is not all on farm), and our raid leaders and class officers are on top of people everyone, tanks, healers AND DPS. If you are putting out 400dps as a ret pally you are going to get called out as dead weight. If you don't show improvement officers are going to have increasingly less patience with you. Just like a shitty tank or dumb healer, you are going to be asked to wake up or eventually get left out.
When you have fights like Curator, Aran, and stage 3 of the Prince, DPS has direct feedback to success or failure. It is INARGUABLE.
-Jason When you have fights like Curator, Aran, and stage 3 of the Prince, DPS has direct feedback to success or failure. It is INARGUABLE.
Not on an individual level. Your one mage pulling down 1000 DPS masks those people doing 400 DPS.
Sure, your average raid DPS is 600, but individual contributions are all over the map.- Anonymous9:46 AM, September 13, 2007
But when it is just 10 people (or even 25) it's easy to pick out the slacker. I'm usually in charge of whipping our melee DPS into shape, and when I am pulling the weight of 2 slackers I get pissed and let them know they are not performing adequately. If I see the trend repeating I look more closely at what they are doing and help them correct.
Maybe my guild is just wierd like that, but we don't let it slide. And we are just a casual guild. I imagine more bleeding edge folk are even less tolerant of sleepers.
-Jason Jason, you're the person who's looking at the meters and evaluating performance. You are the feedback loop, not the game.
If you weren't there, or someone wasn't performing your extra duty, would these "slackers" still be improving?
A lot of guilds don't do what you do, or have someone who's good at it. They don't run through meters or use WWS and evaluate performance. Heck there's a significant portion of the audience who sees damage meters as evil and useless (witness the comic posted above).- Anonymous10:50 AM, September 13, 2007
Well this might be splitting hairs but in a MMO I'm part of the game, as are all the social and leadership aspects that come out of being in a group.
I mean a tank can be a dumbass and clueless to results as DPS. He can sit there and spam taunt and sunder and hold aggro, but never shield block and get crushed. To him the healers just messed up and failed to heal him well enough. He's a dumb tard.
How is this any different then a dumb tard dps putting out crappy dps and thinking he did fine?
All of these tards get a wake up call from raid leadership and can either change or get left out of raids. - Anonymous11:27 AM, September 13, 2007
But again, how is lack of feedback a fault of the game?
If I lose at tennis or chess or PacMan or Super Mario Bros., I don't get feedback as to what went wrong.
Feedback virtually always comes from another player or a coach; it is not inherent within a game.
IMO, WoW has no obligation to provide anything but a dead boss or a wiped raid group; anything else is gravy. If I lose at tennis or chess or PacMan or Super Mario Bros., I don't get feedback as to what went wrong.
I disagree with this. With most games, when you make a mistake, it has an obvious result. In chess, when you make a mistake, you lose material.
In Super Mario Bros, if you jump too early, you fall in the pit and die. The "distance" from mistake to result is very short.- Anonymous12:33 PM, September 13, 2007
Well, actually, it depends.
In chess I might sacrifice material in order to force checkmate - a beginner would never consider a move that obviously loses the Queen, but a master might see that such a move is the beginning of a forced combo that results in checkmate. An eye for a combo is the result of playing and studying and, at higher levels, coaching.
In Mario Bros. I might initially not know about a hidden block or a monster lurking just off the screen, but a veteran knows these things and uses timing and controller skills to avoid the hazards. But it may have taken a lot of falls into the pit and collisions with the monster to get that timing down just right.
In the same way, it might not be initially obvious that a Shadow Priest should keep up VT and SW:P. And what of SW:D, which is a powerful instant that damages the caster? Maybe the life returned by VE will allow an alert Shadow Priest who knows the battle to sneak in SW:D to increase overall DPS. On the other hand, that thought might not even cross the mind of another player.
But there is not a good way (that I can think of) for the game to suggest SW:D since it is a risk / reward scenario. It is possible that SW:D will be followed by an AOE from the boss before the life is regained, and the Priest goes down (with resulting loss of his DPS). And what if the game suggested how to maximize DPS - only to have DPS then steal aggro and wipe the raid (DPS just plain overdoes it, or doesn't notice that the tank is stunned and not generating threat, or a crit jumps threat over the threshold, etc)? There are enough factors involved that I think that WoW is wise to leave it to the players to figure things out.
Such a design is frustrating in failure - but quite rewarding in success.
Just an alternate view... :) - Anonymous12:52 PM, September 13, 2007
I agree that this post seems a bit generalised but i agree that most dpsers can improve techniques, as can all players. It is down to class leaders etc to help their classes do the best.
Samownall World of warcraft blog - Anonymous1:03 PM, September 13, 2007
One player's "mistake" is another player's tactic.
This post is the reason why the game sucks. People like the author are spamming their theorycraft on the world while individuality is squashed.
I'll eviscerate all I damn well like, thank you. If you want to control the world, go play The Sims. The more of your type that we launch out of Azeroth, the happier the in-game world will be. - Anonymous1:09 PM, September 13, 2007
Heh well there is an example of a poor DPS, unwilling to examine tactics, adapt and learn. If Eviscerate works better for you with your gear and talents, and has better dps results than rupture, great. But you should not be blindly doing it just because you'll do it all you want. That mentality is fine for easy stuff or raids on farm when you have the luxury to F around. But there is no room for that on tougher learning/progression raids.
-Jason Thank you to the anonymous poster who basically confirmed the problem with a lot of players.
I honestly have not a care in the world how people play until it starts causing problems in raids. And right now, people who are too close minded to even think about changing their playstyle to benefit the raid are causing a lot of problems.
We don't go out there and spend hours testing and pouring over WWS reports and brainstorming for over 1800 posts on EJ in a single class mechanics topic just because we want to ruin your game. We do it because we want people to progress and see endgame content, because we want to see it ourselves. You like eviserate, thats great, I love it on my 52 rogue alt as well. Ice over fire, more power to ya. If you can make it work in a raid then go ahead and do it. But as it is right now there are certain styles of playing that help a raid out much more than others. Back in vanilla it was easier to accommodate different playstyles because there were other people to help drag the group up. That is no longer the case. I've said it time and time again, but an endgame raiding guild can not afford dead weight anymore. And sadly thats what a lot of people who aren't willing to at least try out changes become.- Anonymous4:14 PM, September 13, 2007
As a combat mace rogue who usually does more pvp and has recently gotten into pve, I'd like to say thanks. I'm embarassed to admit I had forgotten about using Rupture on bosses. BUT, I would have to disagree with your "using Shiv instead of Sinister Strike" comment. Keeping Deadly poison on the offhand and Instant Poison on the mainhand lets me do way more dps and only using Shiv when I need to stack the dot count back up to 5. Of course, I could be taking your comment out of context and maybe that's exactly what you meant. Either way, good blog!
ReplyDelete Hunter's not using Steady Shot is a sin? I barely ever use, and why should I when my Auto Shoot takes only 0.3 more seconds than Steady Shot? Between Arcane Shot, Multishot, Scorpid Sting, and Kill Command proccing, I don't have the time to be getting ready just for the instant I should hit that button before it messes up my timing. I do use it when we stun, daze or concuss a target, but Steady Shot is not in my regular rotation, nor do I think it should be. (Maybe if I wasn't BM, but I am.)
ReplyDeleteJust a few little responses to the commenters.
Steady Shot does rely on how fast your weapon is Kruncs. The big selling point of the skill is the fact that it does not inturrupt your autoshot timer, meaning it is very easy to weave in between autoshots to maximize your dps with a slower weapon. I won't pretend to be an expert on hunters, but from what I've seen on my guild's WWS reports it is is very heavy usage on most boss fights from both our MM and BM hunters.
To the poster about hit rating for enhancement shammys, you are correct. After about 20-25% hit crit is better for overall dps. But until you reach that point its closer to worthless than hit. In addition I would like to say that ret pallys can put out a fair amount of dps if they have the gear, aggro issues are actually the main concern of retribution right now.No offense, but kruncs is (perhaps unwittingly) serving as example of DPS players who don't know pretty basic aspects of their class. Steady shot is key for hunters. In my guild, steady is putting out nearly as much damage as auto-shot, especially for BM hunters. Our latest Reliquary kill: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=xzi1t5ynk5huq
This isn't an isolated incident, and a cursory inspection of the EJ or even official hunter forums would reveal that for BM hunters, a spammable steady/auto/KC macro is the easiest way to maximize DPS. Yet clearly even some players who care enough about the game to read related blogs manage to miss these kinds of class fundamentals.Dunno, I've just never bothered with it when grinding. And up until a month ago, I was never in a raid outside of a BG, so never cared about maximizing DPS. Thats a long time of going without, so I just can't seem to think of it as being vital when I've never needed it. I did know that they are on seperate timers, but as I said, I don't think of it when I am in the instances. Bad me. *uses his BBSoS on himself*
But you know what? I still out DPS my other members, so I don't think it is the greatest sin I could be commiting. Since we started actually raiding, I have been learning more about my class to be more DPS efficient. But I went from 1-68 pretty much soloing with my Hunter, so I don't feel too stupid on the stuff I don't know and haven't done. On one note, no one has ever complained about my DPS except that I steal agro if I am not careful enough, but never that I am not doing enough DPS.
I'm a great example of what not to be... thanks. *hangs his head in shame and goes to mix some Trogg Ale*Heh, kruncs, don't take it personally. We can't improve unless we make mistakes. In the immortal words of G.I.Joe, "Knowing is half the battle."
Besides, you illustrated my point perfectly. You didn't need Steady Shot for grinding and even group play. It's only when you hit a raid DPS check that you would find that your DPS is lacking. And the fact that you beat your other members indicates the scope of the problem.
It's not just that one or two DPS don't know how to play, it's that the majority of them don't know how to reach their full potential.- Anonymous8:18 PM, September 16, 2007
Very nice job defending your thesis Corelia, by the way.
-Agrippina, Perenolde - Anonymous11:40 PM, September 16, 2007
TBH, feedback is important, but think of how time-constrained you are already.
Maximizing my paladin requires me to run instances to gear up, grind rep to get rewards, farm for money to afford enchants and other upgrades, and then if I raid with a "casual" raiding guild, I also have to run about 4-5 hours a night for 4 nights a week.
Thats only in-game. To keep my paladin up-to-date, I have to visit all the top theorycrafting sites and frequent the boards. This means I visit WOW-Europe forums, elitistjerk forums, worldofraids, and read through huge threads for a bout on average half an hour a day and even doing that have barely dented the sheer amount of info out there.
To keep up with raiding, I have to read up on bosskillers, watch boss videos, and visit elitistjerks and worldforaids again just to read how different guilds do the bosses.
This is a big time commitment and only for one toon.
Think of what raid leaders and class leaders have to do? Its simply too hard to provide good feedback to people even using WWStats because there are simply too many variables in the game to account for and provide reliable feedback on.
You claim that people lack feedback, but in the end, officers do less to improve a player than the player themselves. If you are motivated to change then you will independently pursue information yourself until you improved.
I topped the healing meters in my old guild by large amounts before, but when I joined a serious raiding guild I found myself behind the lead paladin by 20-30% during a raid.
Intrigued, I looked up more on my class and read through literally hundreds if not thousands of posts on ways to improve my play, and several addons later and with much play-testing I ended up beating him.
I have tried my best to help other healers, but in the end, educating yourself is really the only way to improve your play. I'm sure that hunter wanted to improve, but its clear he was simply too lazy to look up much of the information for himself.
If you spend 20-40 hours a week playing a game, you can spend 5 hours or so a week looking up information on your character.
PS. GOOD Paladin healers do not use only use 2 spells. All good paladin healers use around 4 different rankings of holy lgiht, flash of light, and have various sets of healing gear for different situations.
My point is, only a lazy player will be unable to figure out whats wrong. All the information is out there. A little googling and persisitence is all it takes to find it. - Anonymous11:18 AM, September 17, 2007
a "good" paladin healer that does not use 4 piece t5 should use TWO spells in raids, and will do extremely well with his TWO spells. downranking HL is largely pointless even with the libram and bol. even maintaining lightsgrace in a RAID environment is largely pointless. burst healing is the job of druids(swiftmend/ns), resto shamans(ns), and priests(pw:s, mend to a lesser degree). paladins do a bulk of the healing on meters by offering a sort of channeled renew. in a 5 man you could keep lights grace up as you are likely the only healer, but i a raid environment paladins should really not be using holy light much. a common problem i see in raids is the tank gets low, all the paladins switch to holy light to try to save the tank, and the 0.5-1 sec difference results in a dead tank.
gear i agree with. if you are with a shadow priest you should stack +heal and to a lesser extent crit. else, mp/5 and heal should dominate your gear in a raid environment. note that 1% crit is only worth 3.6mp/5 SPAMMING flash of light.
as for dps "skill", dps in general dont require SKILL in my opinion. a mage spams one button, and just needs to gear properly so his one button has maximum effect. sure there is invis/evoc/mana gems, but usage of those is largely a matter of a read about/taught routine. healers may mash one or two buttons as well, but their target changes constantly. a good healer needs to watch 25 health bars while being aware of the environment around him. its a balancing act between the two, combined with range/dispel considerations. a good healer anticipates damage before it arrives. you need to time your heals to end slightly after a swing, so you can cancel to save mana, or let it go. health bars do not update as fast as animations, so you need to track what animation your tank performs(dodge/parry/miss) and cancel/continue the spell accordingly. for dps, a mage for example is generally casting on one or two monsters. whether or not his spell hits the one or two targets he is assigned to is IRRELEVANT. the mage does not have to pay attention to the health bar of the boss for most cases, and can focus exclusively on pressing fireball(ok and maybe scorch) and watching the game view for any environmental hazards.
basically dps requires NO skill, and anyone can be told to gear for X hit, rest damage/crit, press x buttons in order and you will top meters. healing cannot be performed in the same way, and pushing your healing to the limit requires far faster reflexes and awareness than dps. and this is largely in fact by almost every tank death being blamed on healers.
sarcasm inc.
tank died because mob was alive too long and healer ran out of mana? healer problem, he needed more mana, pots probably. good example of this - heroic mech chain 3 pulls on the way to pathaleon.
people took a ton of cleaves/aoe damage and dps died in the process resulting in a wipe? healer problem, didnt keep the cleaved people alive. example - nethermancer in heroic mech.
tank got instagibbed by a bad parry/instant strike/autoswing combo? healer problem, should have been precasting heals in anticipation of instagib spike damage.
example - bog overlords in heroic underbog.
the feedback is all the same. people died, and healers prevent people from dying. healer problem to most. any sort of "tank doesnt have enough gear" or "dps didnt do enough damage" cant be proven without WWS -comparisons- to other high performing raids. heals keep people alive, thats proven and hard to refute. after all, someone died and heals prevent that from happening?
the same largely applies to paladin tanks. wearing nearly full epics and dying to heroic trash, and someone telling me "damn paladins die so fast". note i had roughly 17.5k armor and 45% full avoidance(miss/dodge/parry) in my tank gear, as well as roughly 15k hp. too easy to blame things you cant prove. - Anonymous3:44 AM, November 29, 2007
I totally agree with the feedback idea. I see SO many players who just really don't know anything about how agility, crit, hit, spell damage, AP, etc., will affect their class, and some of them don't even know how to spec, and of course a lot of people don't know anything about cast sequnce either. Being an Arcane/Fire mage, I generally talk to all of my caster buddies about stats and such, but it seems like every day someone asks me what seems like a stupid question, then when I respond they're like...wtf? thats gotta be wrong. For example, casters always want to stack crit and spell damage (especially crit) instead of spell hit, not realizing that spell hit will increase their dps way more than crit or spell damage, and when I explain it to them, it's like their little brains just explode. I think it's because the spell hit is like an invisible increase in dps. You don't really see it (other than that you see less Resists), but it's much more exciting to see your crits doing a couple hundred more damage every time instead of seein your crits actually hitting 99% of the time instead of 91.
Anyways, I do the best I can with giving my guildies feedback, and it definitely seems to help. There are some people (like me and others in my guild) who just know their stuff (yeah, it took me forever to accumulate the knowledge), and some people who just do better when they're told what to do, and they can then execute and perform well in a raid. I can't imagine being the latter though, because it seems like just hitting buttons because thats what someone told me was the best way to dps/heal/tank would just be boring and stupid. And thats why I did the research, found out WHY I hit those buttons in that order, and then played around with other stuff to try and figure out a fun way to dps, CC, and still rock the dps charts.
Oh and I only have one post-Karazhan item, my tier 4 pants, and they're not as good as the Trial-Fire Trousers from the Opera Event (I can't believe I still haven't gotten them), and I can pump out over 1000 dps (1031 last night in Kara from Moroes through the Curator), but when I see someone doing 700 dps I definitely think they're doing well. And yet...I expect more anyways, just because I've gotten enough sweet gear to do 1000 dps in Karazhan gear.
Oh and who says mages are UP? Whatever.
It took me a LOT of hard work to get to the level that I am at, and I don't demand respect for that or anything, but anyone who has run with me just give me that respect. I don't see how saying that a lot of dpsers need feedback to improve is insulting dpsers. I think it's a fact, and whether you give yourself feedback by using WWS or Recount or something, comparing gear and stats with other characters, or if someone just tells you what to do and you do it...it's effective, and honestly, yes, anyone can hit the buttons in the right order, but to be an effective dps class in a raid situation, you gotta have skills, knowledge, and experience. So I give respect to those who have all of those things, and those who don't, I try to help them get those things, because they're most likely more than capable, they just don't know what they need to do.


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Face to face: Obama, Romney in crackling debate
Published 10:25 pm Tuesday, October 16, 2012
HEMPSTEAD, N.Y. — An aggressive President Barack Obama accused challenger Mitt Romney of favoring a "one-point plan" to help the rich in America and playing politics with the recent deadly terrorist attack in Libya in a Tuesday night debate crackling with energy and emotion just three weeks before the election.
Romney pushed back hard, saying the middle class "has been crushed over the last four years," that 23 million Americans are struggling to find work and that the death of the U.S. ambassador to Libya was part of an unraveling of the administration's foreign policy.
The president was feistier from the outset than he had been in their initial encounter two weeks ago, when he turned in a listless performance that sent shudders through his supporters and helped fuel a rise by Romney in opinion polls nationally and in some battleground states.
Obama and Romney disagreed, forcefully and repeatedly — about taxes, measures to reduce the deficit, energy, pay equity for women and health care as well as foreign policy across 90 minutes of a town-hall style debate.
Immigration prompted yet another clash, Romney saying Obama had failed to pursue the comprehensive legislation he promised at the dawn of his administration, and the president saying Republican obstinacy made a deal impossible.
Romney gave as good as he got.
"You'll get your chance in a moment. I'm still speaking," the former Massachusetts governor said at one point while Obama was mid-sentence, drawing a gasp from the audience. He said the president's policies had failed to jumpstart the economy and had cramped energy production.
The open-stage format left the two men free to stroll freely across a red-carpeted stage, and they did. Their clashes crackled with energy and tension, and the crowd watched raptly as the two sparred while struggling to appear calm and affable before a national television audience.
While most of the debate was focused on policy differences, there was one more-personal moment, when Obama said Romney had investments in China.
"Mr. President, have you looked at your pension?" Romney interrupted.
"You know, I don't look at my pension. It's not as big as yours," shot back Obama to his wealthier rival.
Under the format agreed to in advance, members of an audience of 82 uncommitted voters posed questions to the president and his challenger.
Nearly all of them concerned domestic policy until one raised the subject of the recent death of the U.S. ambassador to Libya in a terrorist attack at an American post in Benghazi. Romney said it took Obama a long time to admit the episode had been a terrorist attack, but Obama said he had said so the day after in an appearance in the Rose Garden outside the White House.
When moderator Candy Crowley of CNN said the president had in fact done so, Obama, prompted, "Say that a little louder, Candy."
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has taken responsibility for the death of Ambassador L. Christopher Stevens and three other Americans, but Obama said bluntly, "I'm the president, and I'm always responsible."
Romney said it was "troubling" that Obama continued with a campaign event in Las Vegas on the day after the attack in Libya, an event the Republican said had "symbolic significance and perhaps even material significance."
Obama seemed to bristle. He said it was offensive for anyone to allege that he or anyone in his administration had used the incident for political purposes. "That's not what I do."
One intense exchange focused on competing claims about whether energy production is increasing or slowing. Obama accused Romney of misrepresenting what has happened — a theme he returned to time and again. Romney strode across the stage to confront Obama face to face, just feet from the audience.
Both men pledged a better economic future to a young man who asked the first question, a member of a pre-selected audience of 82 uncommitted voters.
Then the president's determination to show a more aggressive side became evident.
Rebutting his rival's claim to a five-point plan to create 12 million jobs, Obama said, "Gov. Romney says he's got a five-point plan. Gov. Romney doesn't have a five-point plan. He has a one-point plan. And that plan is to make sure that folks at the top play by a different set of rules."
"That's been his philosophy in the private sector," Obama said of his rival. "That's been his philosophy as governor. That's been his philosophy as a presidential candidate. You can make a lot of money and pay lower tax rates than somebody who makes a lot less."
"You can ship jobs overseas and get tax breaks for it. You can invest in a country, bankrupt it, lay off the workers, strip away their pensions and you still make money. That's exactly the philosophy that we've seen in place for the last decade," the president said in a scorching summation.
Unable to respond at length because of the debate's rules, Romney said the accusations were "way off the mark."
But moments later, he reminded the national television audience of the nation's painfully slow recovery from the worst recession in decades.
There are "23 million people struggling to find a job. … The president's policies have been exercised over the last four years and they haven't put America back to work," he said. "We have fewer people working today than when he took office."
Economic growth has been slow throughout Obama's term in office, and unemployment only recently dipped below 8 percent for the first time since he moved into the White House. Romney noted that if out-of-work Americans who no longer look for jobs were counted, the unemployment rate would be 10.7 percent.
Both men had rehearsed extensively for the encounter, a turnabout for Obama.
"I had a bad night," the president conceded, days after he and Romney shared a stage for the first time, in Denver. His aides made it known he didn't intend to be as deferential to his challenger this time, and the presidential party decamped for a resort in Williamsburg, Va., for rehearsals that consumed the better part of three days.
Romney rehearsed in Massachusetts and again after arriving on Long Island on debate day, with less to make up for.
Asked Tuesday night by one member of the audience how he would differ from former President George W. Bush, the last Republican to hold the office, Romney said, "We are different people and these are different times."
He said he would attempt to balance the budget, something Bush was unsuccessful in doing, get tougher on China and work more aggressively to expand trade.
Obama jumped in with his own predictions — not nearly as favorable to the man a few feet away on stage. He said the former president didn't attempt to cut off federal funding for Planned Parenthood or turn Medicare into a voucher system.
Though the questions were from undecided voters inside the hall — in a deeply Democratic state — the audience that mattered most watched on television and was counted in the tens of millions. Crucially important: viewers in the nine battlegrounds where the race is likely to be settled.
The final debate, next Monday in Florida, will be devoted to foreign policy.
Opinion polls made the race a close one, with Obama leading in some national surveys and Romney in others. Despite the Republican's clear gains in surveys in recent days, the president led in several polls of Wisconsin and Ohio, two key Midwestern battlegrounds where Romney and running mate Paul Ryan are campaigning heavily.
Barring a last-minute shift in the campaign, Obama is on course to win states and the District of Columbia that account for 237 of the 270 electoral votes needed for victory. The same is true for Romney in states with 191 electoral votes.
The remaining 110 electoral votes are divided among the hotly contested battleground states of Florida (29), North Carolina (15), Virginia (13) New Hampshire (4), Iowa (6), Colorado (9), Nevada (6), Ohio (18) and Wisconsin (10).
Obama has campaigned in the past several days by accusing Romney of running away from some of the conservative positions he took for tax cuts and against abortion earlier in the year when he was trying to win the Republican nomination.
"Maybe you're wondering what to believe about Mitt Romney," says one ad, designed to remind voters of the Republican's strong opposition to abortion except in cases of rape, incest or when the life of the mother is at stake.
Romney countered by stressing both in person and through his television advertising the slow pace of the economic recovery, which has left growth sluggish and unemployment high throughout Obama's term. Joblessness recently declined to 7.8 percent, dropping below 8 percent for the first time since the president took office.


text:
Repeat It Today with Tears
Anne Peile
Serpent's Tail
Debuts are tricky by nature. An author enters our world from this starting point, it's a dividing line, will we love it or hate it? New things are often viewed with scepticism.
Set in 1970s London, Susanna is living with her mother, and knows nothing of her father. She finds her life unbearable in her surroundings and decides to distance herself as much as possible. Making a secret list of everything she can find out about her father, she eventually discovers his name, and begins to seek him out in the unconventional atmosphere of Chelsea. Under a false identity, she begins an illicit affair, which will only end in disaster.
Described by the author as "a traditional love story", Peile highlights the human need for acceptance and love. But deception destroys not only the self, but shatters the lives of all concerned. The subject matter is incredibly controversial, however, Peile humanises Susanna, and we are filled with empathy, as we see her transgress. Handled with sensitivity and care, there will certainly be many discussions around this book.
Shirley Stevenson


text:
Daniel Martin Moore
In The Cool of the Day
Sub Pop
When you see Sub Pop is behind a band / singer songwriter, you have to get excited. This is the label that brought Fleet Foxes and Wolf Parade to our iPods, so expectations are always high.
Daniel Martin Moore is from Cold Spring, Kentucky and he did things the old fashion way; sent the folks at Sub Pop a demo back in 2007. They liked what they heard and produced Stray Age in 2008. His follow-up, In The Cool of the Day is quiet and subtle. Encompassing serene vocals with emotive piano, it's an album that has the potential to grow on you.
Moore performs time tested family gospel favourites, remembered from his youth. "Family gospel favourites" is enough to scare anyone away, but this album fits neatly into a particular vein of music with undertones of country, so it's best to forego any preconceived notions and give it a try. It's an album that's too soft in places, but somehow befits this man from Kentucky. It's best to listen to while cooking a meal for old friends – somehow becoming the embodiment of quality time.
Shirley Stevenson


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Talk:Western Rite/Archive 1
Given our recent bit of nasty editing by 126.96.36.199 on this, I think we definitely need to expand this article to include some of the controversy. I'll try to work on a section about the controversial nature of the WR soon, but of course if anyone wants to beat me to it, they're most welcome. Stuff like 188.8.131.52's edits are not. --Rdr. Andrew 21:25, 19 Feb 2005 (CST)
If the vandalism of OrthodoxWiki continues by 220.127.116.11 / 184.108.40.206 / 220.127.116.11 (a visitor from osuweb.net), I'm going to ban every IP from that domain I see. In the meantime, this article is going to be protected (editable only by sysops) for a week. --Rdr. Andrew 12:26, 20 Feb 2005 (CST)
- Hey, you want to write your OPINION, that's fine. But don't lie about the Orthodox faith. The Orthodox Church - ANY JURISDICTION - has NEVER been "in communion" with Roman Catholic schismatics. Your implication that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is in any way a "branch" or other "brotherly member" of the Uniat church is Libelous and must be stopped.
- I'm going to presume that this paragraph is from the Reader Michael (OCA) mentioned on Talk:Main Page.
- If you believe that the article as it currently stands is merely opinion and is "lies," then you are welcome to offer up edits of this article which reflect another point of view. However, accusations that WR Orthodox are "Roman Catholics" is simply inaccurate. They are not in communion with the Vatican, and most never have been. Those that used to be broke communion from Rome in becoming Orthodox (or usually sometime before).
- "Uniate" (as you used in your edits) is also not accurate. The Unia specifically refers to parishes which had been formerly Orthodox, broke from the Orthodox Church, and then went into union with Rome. The only similarity that WR Orthodox have with Rome is that they share common roots for their liturgical tradition (and since Vatican II, the deviation has become quite wide).
- You say that you're in the OCA. Your bishops are fully in communion with the bishops who care for most of the WR parishes. Have you called your bishops to break communion with those who, in your view, continue to promulgate Roman Catholicism in the guise of Orthodoxy? You might better claim that the WR is an attempt to promulgate Orthodoxy in the guise of Roman Catholicism. (After all, the "guise" of the WR is much more similar to Rome than to Constantinople.) I genuinely and seriously wonder whether you have even read the article.
- As you say, ROCOR is not a "branch" of the Uniates, and the article is not claiming that, either. ROCOR does have Western Rite parishes, and at least two WR monasteries (one in Rhode Island and the other in New Zealand). (If you doubt this, I recommend you contact their administration to determine this for yourself.) This does not make ROCOR Uniates.
- In any event, you have thus far shown yourself nearly incapable of contributing to OrthodoxWiki in a rational, charitable manner, throwing accusations about without attempting to work within the standards set here. Your contributions so far are precisely the sort of thing we're working to avoid. Now, if you want to work within our standards and represent heretofore unrepresented points of view in a rational, encyclopedic manner, you are most welcome. If, on the other hand, you are not willing to do so, we'll work to prevent your vandalism. It's your choice.
- In the meantime, I'll make some notes in this article reflecting your opinions in the "Criticism" section. --Rdr. Andrew 06:25, 21 Feb 2005 (CST)
New Zealand
Rdr Andrew,
i am unaware of any western rite monastery in new zealand. there was a group in the 70's that started a skete, but firstly i'm not sure if they are western rite (probably not), and secondly in any event they went under the serbian diocese.
however, you may be referring to the St Petroc monastery in tasmania, australia.
thank you for all the work you've done on OrthodoxWiki - already it is a resource for Orthodox. a/s
- Fixed! --Rdr. Andrew 21:06, 25 Feb 2005 (CST)
I've returned this article to "unprotected" status a day early, because of the change of heart of Sputnik. Glory be to God for all things! --Rdr. Andrew 08:03, 26 Feb 2005 (CST)
Thoughts on Criticisms of the Western Rite.
One of the things I think was missed in the criticism section of this article was that what many find disquieting about Western Rite parishes is that most, if not all, are primarily convert parishes. In some circles there is a feeling that while the rite itself is unobjectionable, there is a danger that these parishes want to be Orthodox but not too Orthodox: they do not want to give up the comforting familiarity of their former religion and might thus come to further 'infect' the Church with other (this time unwarranted) innovations brought in from their former church. This, I think, is behind the worry about the lack of a liturgical tradition that is referenced in the main article.
Or to put this another way, if a long established parish with multigenerational families of Orthodox were to change peacefully from the Byzantine Rite to the Western Rite then many who are now uneasy with the latter would find it easier to become reconciled with it. Of course, other objections such as the uniformity of liturgical practice and so on would still be made but the nature of discourse would, I think, be different. (But not, probably, better - consider new-calendar v old-calendar.)
Nickolas Kalivas
188.8.131.52 16:58, 8 Mar 2005 (CST)
- You can, of course, make these additions to the article if you should so choose. I wonder about the idea of an ER parish becoming WR, though. Why would they do that? It seems something of a non sequitur.
- I've heard this criticism, though, and I'll note it in the appropriate section, along with some of the counters I've heard, as well. --Rdr. Andrew 17:48, 8 Mar 2005 (CST)
I did not want to make changes to the main article since I don't have references that I can point to. Since my comments are anecdotal I prefer to leave them in a discussion until I (or someone else) can point to something that is more than what may be a couple of ill-remembered stories.
As for a putative parish changing rites, I do not expect this to happen since, as you say, why would they do that? I'm using this illustration in an attempt to explain how a long-standing liturgical tradition acts as a buffer to criticism and thus might help to blunt some arguments. Put crudely "St ----'s church has been around for a hundred years and is well respected for its stability, good works, etc. It changed to the Western Rite five years ago for reasons of its own and, while I do not understand why, I trust them so it must be ok."
My powers of expression aren't usually that good, and certainly get worse when it gets near to midnight, but I hope that I've made myself clearer. I have absolutely no desire to be controversial but thought I'd add information about something that I thought might have been missed. In any case, I look forward to reading any updates when they come around.
Nickolas Kalivas
188.8.131.52 17:50, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)
- No worries! As you can see from the article, not everything on OrthodoxWiki is documented (much like the Orthodox Church itself), but the fact that both you and I have heard this criticism is, I think, enough to merit it a mention.
- I understood what you meant about the respectability of an established ER parish becoming WR, but the sheer unlikelihood of that ever happening makes it something of a moot point, don't you think?
- In any event, judging at least from your comments here, I'd say that your expression powers are surely good enough to find use here on OrthodoxWiki—perhaps you'd consider registering an account and helping us out to the extent that you are able and inclined to do so. --Rdr. Andrew 19:14, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)
Perhaps "Objections to the Western Rite" should be its own article. I'd be happy to write it; I think I've heard EVERYTHING. :)
In the late 1990s, negotiations had been underway with the Church of Serbia for the Eglise to come under its jurisdiction, but NATO's bombing of Kosovo in 1999 abruptly ended those hopes, as France was then seen by the Serbians as complicit in its persecution by the West. Talks reportedly resumed in 2004.
I must say I find this paragraph a little bizarre - maybe it's my American mentality of separation of church and state, but why would church negotiations be affected by what the French government does? And why is the reported necessary? Either they did or they didn't, and if it's a maybe, another wording might be more appropriate since reportedly sounds like someone is suspicious of certain claims which are being made. (And if this is the case, the concern should be made explicit). Thanks, Fr. John
- Regarding the issue of breaking off talks after NATO began bombing Serbia -- I think it was essentially an issue of guilt by association. (Notice, for instance, how Americans started boycotting or renaming various French cultural products simply because the French government didn't support the invasion of Iraq.)
- The latter bit is part of a sentence I put in there. I used "reportedly," because I have no source for the information other than someone who is not part of either group saying that it is so, without citing any information. Since this is hardly a "common knowledge" issue, I'd at least like some sort of published source before removing the "hedge" word. --Rdr. Andrew 22:55, 1 Apr 2005 (EST)
http://www.spc.yu/Vesti-2004/12/14-12-04-e.html Try this to begin with. Also, a version of the same report but originating with the French rather than the Serbians, as reported to ROCOR's WRO monastery: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/Michael04.htm - page down to Belgrade, 29 September. - Aristibule.
- Thanks! --Rdr. Andrew 07:19, 4 Apr 2005 (EDT)
The negotiations between Serbia and L'ECOF ARE common knowledge, if you travel in Western Rite circles. Literally every WRV clergyman is aware of them, as well as many in ROCOR, and even the Milan Synod, HOCNA, and various other splinter groups (as Aidan Keller of the Occidentalis Yahoo news list falsely reported L'ECOF had been assumed by the Copts [that's a different church with a similar name], then falsely reported the Serbs had alraedy accepted L'ECOF). Thanks, Aristibule, for providing links verifying my recounting of the facts.
I share Fr. John's questions about Serbia breaking off negotiations with France last time, allegedly because of its support for Clinton's military actions. Perhaps we should see "at least like some sort of published source" before adding it?
- I've removed the section in question. It was a piece of information told to me by a former subdeacon in l'ECOF.
- "Common knowledge" within a certain group is not the same as "common knowledge" as usually defined in academic standards. For instance, it is common knowledge that Julius Caesar ruled the Roman Empire, but it is not common knowledge that some piece of his house was recently uncovered, something that probably only archaeologists would know. --Rdr. Andrew 07:58, 4 Apr 2005 (EDT)
All's well that ends well, Rdr. Andrew! :)
I made some changes to the Western Rite article. Rdr. Andrew Stephen Damick erased said changes. Another user then added some variant of my original comments back to these pages twice, each time having them erased.
The irony is I made these changes at the specific invitation of: Rdr. Andrew. On the Yahoo group "westernriteorthodoxy," I offered stylistic and substantive comments about his Western Rite article, which he had linked on the group. He said of my substantive changes (including my note about the Franco-Serbian negotiations): "Thanks for your input. You're welcome, of course, to make adjustments to the article yourself, but should you choose not to, I'll try to incorporate your suggestions at some point in the future." Hence, I felt welcome to post here. When I took him up on his offer, he decided to censor me and delete the input he encouraged me to publish. I didn't realize by taking up his offer I was somehow falling into his little game.
An admin hoped we could discuss this page in a Christian manner. Frankly, I am apprehensive even entering this dialogue, especially during Lent. As I mentioned, Rdr. Andrew and I met on the Yahoo group "westernriteorthodoxy," a listserv dedicated to Antioch's WRV. After I noted a "Ukrainian Orthodox" spambot's several messages about a Byzantine Rite outreach to the inner city homeless of Hawaii (!) were off-topic and reminded the group many independent church groups claim to be associated with the "Ukrainian Orthodox," Rdr. Andrew repeatedly attacked me with vitriolic rhetoric simply because because I believe with most of world Orthodoxy (including Antioch and the OCA) that to be part of the Orthodox Church proper one must be Orthodox in faith, in practice, and be in communion with one of the 15 autocephalous Orthodox churches. Indeed, even after I twice asked we not discuss the matter, he felt obliged to attack viciously. (All this before even introducing himself.) He then linked his Western Rite OrthodoxWiki article; after I offered some technical feedback he seemed hyper-sensitively defensive. He's even refused to post a comment I have sent to his blog twice about a song named "Massachusetts" recorded by the Bee Gees, although he's added numerous posts since then. All this leads me to believe Rdr. Andrew is averse to criticism of any sort, however innocuous, and may not be an exemplar of reasoned Christian discourse. I hope we will have better luck here, and the rest of you will set the example should things become bogged down again. I simply don't feel like getting into an argument for argument's sake, especially with fellow Orthodox who are, for the most part, doing excellent work.
Magda writes: "Repeatedly making the same changes does nothing to persuade." I was unaware one had to "persuade"; I was under the impression OrthodoxWiki was "a free-content encyclopedia and information center for Orthodox Christianity that anyone can edit." I particularly had this impression after I was directly invited to edit the Western Rite article on the matters Rdr. Andrew and I discussed on the "westernriteorthodoxy" group. I was not aware this meant "anyone, as long as we agree with their viewpoint, even if they link proof of their assertions." :) However, in case you missed them, here's:
Magda, et. al., much of the information I posted came from canonical Orthodox clergy within Antioch and ROCOR, and was verified in a public internet forum by Aidan Keller, a monk formerly with the Milan Synod's St. Hilarion Monastery in Austin, TX. He admitted in this message that SHM's "Archbishop Hilarion" received his orders from the Liberal Catholic Church, a group that has proudly trumpeted its Theosophist beliefs for decades. At some point, SHM became part of an Old Catholic group billing itself as the "Synod of Orthodox Bishops of the Western Rite." I linked the Yellow Pages entry showing that group advertizing itself as "Orthodox," although they were then episcopoi vagantes (again, by Aidan Keller's admission, although he claims they did not present themselves as Orthodox before entering the Milan Synod). You will notice the SOBWR's address in the Yellow Page entry is the same as that of the the Abbey of the Holy Name, the residence of "His Eminence, the Most Reverend Archbishop John, Ruling Archbishop" of the Milan Synod. (Indeed, St. Hilarion's itself has reportedly claimed it was part of the Antiochian Archdiocese. Similarly, Aidan Keller charges his enemies -- he often names Antiochians specifically as such -- with resorting "to lies, orchestrated rumours, shocking intrigue, bribery, and even forged documents," all without any proof, naturally.)
Sources within Antioch and ROCOR state that SOBWR approached ROCOR's Abp. HILARION (then in the U.S., now in Australia). Aidan Keller admits Vladyka demanded they be reordained, and they refused. They were then received into the Milan Synod, by all accounts without reordination. Common sense also dictates if these vagantes refused to accede to ROCOR's demand for reordination, they would not likely do so for the Milan Synod. Thus, as far as the record can be reconstructed, the only ordination administred at St. Hilarion's Monastery stems from a Theosophist church. I freely acknowledge that Russia used to accept Roman Catholic priests simply by "vesting," but I'm not aware that Milan even did that in this case; by all accounts they simply accepted SHM directly, in orders. Perhaps Aristibule has this answer, as well?
You may read Aidan Keller's admissions about his monastery's background here (you must first subscribe), although they are buried beneath mounds of denials and contradictions of his previous statements, etc.
Finally, in my post, I linked Fr. Anthony Nelson of ROCOR's article on the role St. Hilarion's Monastery played in ordaining the head of the Gnostic Orthodox Church (the group that produces "Monastery Icons"). Aidan Keller claims this was innocent. However, according to Fr. Nelson the Gnostic publicly proclaimed that he had been a bishop in a former life, and the monastery had been featured on numerous television programs as a Hindu-Orthodox hybrid!
I believe this proves all my assertions. I added them to give a more complete picture of St. Hilarion's Monastery, particularly since, as I noted, certain figures there have a disturbing background, high ambition, and have been less than honest about their background (and well as the practices, faith, and even Orthodoxy of Antioch -- but that's another post). Thank you.
In Reply #1
Rdr. Andrew sent me some more links to the whole thread of discussion on westernriteorthodoxy. I've briefly read through your discussion together, and I venture the following comments:
- I'm amazed by the depth of discussion. I think at one point Ben said that no good history of Western Rite Orthodoxy yet exists. I'm very heartened to see so much knowledge going around and I have high hopes for this article here. I hope you folks don't give up on all of this.
- It seems to me that your strained conversation is a sad side effect of internet discourse. How quickly differences escalate into flame wars! I'm not convinced that either of you are actually wrong. Let me explain:
- Ben takes issue with Rdr. Andrew's openness to the Milan Synod and other groups which call themselves Orthodox, but are not in fact in communion with any of the ancient sees. Rdr. Andrew responds that we should not write these groups off too quickly, and gives some historical examples to back this up (e.g. the way some groups - even, e.g. the OCA - have failed at one point or another to meet the strict definition of canonicity offered by Fr. Matusiak (which I think is a good summary statement, but not a complete treatise on ecclesiastical polity).
- My impression is that Rdr. Andrew is being too cautious/charitable here. I don't know the specific history of the Milan Synod, but I recommend that we change it's descriptor from "Old Calendar" to something that more accurately highlights the problematic character of its claims. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to provide a link to an article which goes into some of the history of the [[ 1 Holy Synod of Milan|Milan Synod]].
- In terms of ecclesiology, obviously this isn't really the place for an in-depth discussion, but I award points to both parties. Personally, I don't have much trouble holding the two perspectives in tension. It seems that most of us (in mainstream canonical Orthodox churches) can appreciate that, even if we aren't fully in communion with R.O.C.O.R. (not yet at least), they still have a claim to authenticity that's radically different from, e.g., a group like H.O.C.N.A. It is "common sense" to us to state the basic criteria of canonicity without totally excluding some groups which have become estranged for certain kinds of historical reasons (in this case, communist control of the Moscow Patriarchate).
- Ben takes issue with Rdr. Andrew's openness to the Milan Synod and other groups which call themselves Orthodox, but are not in fact in communion with any of the ancient sees. Rdr. Andrew responds that we should not write these groups off too quickly, and gives some historical examples to back this up (e.g. the way some groups - even, e.g. the OCA - have failed at one point or another to meet the strict definition of canonicity offered by Fr. Matusiak (which I think is a good summary statement, but not a complete treatise on ecclesiastical polity).
- 3. It seems to me that both of you have a lot to contribute. Again, I'm not really sure why things have escalated so quickly (maybe because it's Lent?), but I trust that we are all "eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." (Eph. 4:3) and that this can be resolved in a worthy manner.
May God bless you both, Fr. John (Honcho in Chief)
- Wow, howdy, Chief! :) I certainly hope whatever kicked off things off in such a manner was a passing thing and we can make a "second first-impression." I'm more than willing. I'd certainly welcome any opportunity to promote the Western Rite within Antioch and broader (canonical) Orthodoxy. My criteria for Orthodoxy is not merely being Orthodox and in communion with "all the pentarchy" (Rome isn't around anymore), or even a single Patriarchate, but any one of the autocephalous churches. As such, ROCOR doubly qualifies, as it is in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem (and soon Moscow!). HOCNA, Milan, ROAC, and others are not and so do not. There are troubling allegations of spiritual, physical, and sexual abuse with several such groups, as well.
- What is particularly troubling to me is that many converts come looking for the true Church -- the Body of Christ, Holy Orthodoxy -- and find the aggressive online proselytizing of one of these groups. (Particularly those looking for the Western Rite finding Milan.) Then rather than ending up within the Holy Church (particularly within the W. Rite of Antioch or ROCOR, which can use all the members we can get!), they end up in what most of us consider an "imitation Orthodox" group, so trying to end up Orthodox they end up in a very odd and non-Orthodox organization, convinced they're the real Orthodox. Further, many of these groups are dishonest about their relations with Orthodoxy (St. Hilarion's Monastery in particular, as noted), claiming simultaneously that:
- 1) Antioch and ROCOR love and cherish their liturgy and approve of the "validity" of their orders (red light!);
- 2) Antioch and ROCOR will stop at nothing to crush their "competitors"; and
- 3) Antioch and ROCOR's Western Rites are evil, post-schism, or - gasp! - "Byzantized"!
- I think OrthodoxWiki is providing a potentially invaluable service to interested converts looking for information. In order to guide them into the safe haven of the Church, we need to be clear how mainstream Orthodoxy regards the Greek OCs.
- If I may further muddy the waters, ROCOR despises most Greek OCs, as they were burned after setting them up, but they are still in communion with the Oropos-Fili faction. However, this group says it will break communion when ROCOR reunites with Moscow, so it's a temporary arrangement.
- Father, bless. (And I'll see what I can do about getting you that extra-large monitor! Hey, you too, Andrew -- how's that for fence-mending?) :)
- I would just add: I don't think the examples Rdr. Andrew used are appropos. The OCA was granted autonomy by Moscow, which means at a minimum it was in communion with Moscow. St. Maximus the Confessor was persecuted by his hierarch and fled...to the Pope of Rome. ROCOR has always been in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem (or one or the other). None of this can be said of the ever-splitting Greek OCs.
In Reply #2
Hi Ben, I really do see (and share) your concerns. Just in the past few months, I've been personally troubled by the divisiveness, aggressive proselytizing, and half-truths of one of these groups. I've also been looking into some allegations of sexual abuse against one group in particular and the more I scratched the surface, the more disturbed I was by what I found.
All that said, I think Rdr. Andrew's concern is that we shouldn't lump all these groups together too quickly. I am more sympathetic with some of the Greek Old Calendarists than others... each has it's own history, it's own dramas.
On Wikipedia, there's a thing called NPOV - "neutral point of view" - which we've adopted, in a modified form, at OrthodoxWiki (see Neutrality_and_the_OrthodoxWiki_Bias). I think of this as the editorial voice we're trying to cultivate here - more descriptive than prescriptive. So, I think it's preferable to simply describe the situation of these various groups, including their own claims as well as the accusations against them and how they are regarded by other groups. We're aiming for description, and I'd like to leave any direct pronouncements about these groups to the official websites of the various Orthodox Churches, and any unofficial ones that want to enter into that fray. We're not trying to do everything - thank God they're there - but I do think OrthodoxWiki is filling an important gap in the Orthodox cyber-sphere.
Practically, a descriptive tone would mean, for example, saying "these groups are regarded as schismatic by the Orthodox Churches in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate" or "their belief in reincarnation, if allegations are true, is incompatible with Orthodox teaching" rather than the more pointed and not very helpful "they're heretics."
It seems to me that the facts of the cases speak more loudly than any direct polemic we want to insert. I would welcome a response from folks in any of those groups, as long as they didn't wipe out the words of those who have voiced concerns against them.
One final note - about the OCA thing, I think Rdr. Andrew was referring more to the ambiguous status of the Metropolia before the autocephaly was granted by Moscow.
Wishing you a good battle, Fr. John
P.S. May I invite you to open an OrthodoxWiki account?
Formatting and Indentions
I mentioned in my post on "westernriteorthodoxy," the only real problem I have with the technical side of the WesternRite article is that the indentions are hard to make out, particularly in areas where the article "scoots" one direction or another. I've looked at it on a 20" monintor, and one can barely tell the quoted paragraphs are indented. Is there anyway to increase the indentation say a few more centimeters? I think that would improve the page dramatically.
Just my two cents.
- There is a good deal of latitude given to the contributors in terms of formatting - we certainly want to go for clarity, although we should generally abide by the guidelines in the OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual (which itself is open for discussion).
If you put a couple spaces before a paragraph
it turns into a text box. This can be helpful sometimes!
- You can also indent a paragraph by putting colons ':' in front of it -- the more colons, the further in it goes.
You might also find it helpful to italicize or use boldness in order to make things clear. For more information, please see Help:Editing.
Hope that helps! Fr. John
P.S. A 20 inch monitor? That sounds great! Do you happen to have an extra one laying around :-)
I would not list "westernritejurisdictions," as it was founded for a specific, short-term purpose. A poster on Occidentalis had asked for documentation of several of Aidan Keller's statements on Occidentalis. Keller provided none, then censored him. As a sop to a few members of the Occidentalis group, Aidan Keller formed "westernritejurisdictions" to answer this guy's questions. Six months later, he has provided nothing. It's best to leave that what it was intended to be: a private fight between Aidan and "imjimmyd" (and his wife?). Your readers will get no spiritual benefit from reading it.
I would not list Occidentalis for the same reason I wouldn't put "Milan Synod" in the article, but ALSO for another reason: Occidentalis has been Aidan Keller's forum for several calumnies against the Antiochian WRV. In one message, he claimed the St. Tikhon Vespers service was "substantially Byzantized," because it had the Prayer of St. Chrysostom -- added by Thomas Cranmer in 1549! Again, he claims eerie, scary, bad, mean Antiochians are out to crush him and his wonderful liturgy, which is the lone heir to pre-Schism Western liturgics (although all the books he cites as sources were printed LATE post-Schism, some in the 19th century). He also allows "super Orthodox" (Milan Synod, HOCNA, etc.) to call Orthodox and all non-super-Orthodox VILE, insulting names without censorship or rebuke...but those who ask questions he doesn't like, like "imjimmyd," are censored.
I'm sure there are other Western Rite forums in existence, but I don't have my links handy. Others? Anyone? Anyone?
- beginning of new comments by other user* I have found few Western Rite forums in use by actual Western Rite Orthodox. The 'westernriteorthodoxy' list at Yahoogroups probably being singular. Since the closing of the old "occidentalis" list in about 2002, AWRV clergy have not really participated in any online forum or listserv that I can find. The same goes for ROCOR WRO clergy as of 2003. The only place I know where discussion might be had on the subject is a single forum on another list that is primarily for Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, with Roman Catholics and Orthodox participating. - Aristibule
About the listservs, I would suggest we list everything relevant, but that we clearly note the source, e.g. Antiochian Archdiocese, etc. or Controversial Groups (Milan Synod). We don't have to pretend that, e.g., the Milan Synod has legitimate canonical standing in the Orthodox world, but I think we should include all the data relevant to the discussion.
Maybe this could be accomplished by including a brief overview of the relationship of the "non-mainstream" groups to the Western rite, including some of the things which have been discussed here and in the linked threads, but in digest form (and with links to more detailed OrthodoxWiki articles!).
How does that sound to everybody? - Fr. John
Sounds like a good idea, Father. It might help as many are seeing subtle language pushing the Milan Synod pov over the neutral language in other articles. I've tried to clarify on a few points where I have some knowledge of the subject. The issue is the language in how their Western Rite project is described, being of word choices which either overtly or by intimation cast aspersion on the Western Rite as used by the (mainstream) Orthodox Church. Having said that, reporting using the self-descriptive political language of the group imports the bias of the group. - Aristibule
Miscellaneous Information
- begin
I have a few items to add later once I can get some more detailed information. I'm placing them here as placeholders so I don't forget.
- The role of the Western Rite Orthodox in the "Pilgrimage to Orthodoxy", including the initial placement of then AWRV priest Fr. Michael Keiser over what would become the British Antiochian Deanery (and its subsequent Byzantinization.)
- Dr. Raymond Winch (RIP), who was converted to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism in the late 1950s, and became a proponent for Western Rite Orthodoxy through "The Gregorian Club". His major influence was through his investigations into the canons which direct the Roman rite for those nations speaking the English tongue.
- Use of a Byzantinized liturgy based around the Roman Canon by Russian Old Believers up into the 1960s in Turkey.
- The special relationship of the Latin rite monasteries and churches of the post-Schism era on Mt. Athos and in Constantinople/Nicea/Crimea/"New England"(unkown place on the Black Sea coast) which included Latin rite communities having privileges not extended towards other 'Latins'. The Varangians (Anglivarangoi) in particular, and how Blondal's theory of them remaining under Roman pastorate is problematic in several details.
- The first Orthodox Christians in the Americas being the family of Leif Ericsson, sent by St. Olaf of Norway with priest to Greenland - users of a Roman rite, and under the 'omophorion' of the Bishop of Hamburg-Bremen (over half a century before the Great Schism). Records of that local church describe an Episcopal visit to 'Vinland' by the Greenland (North American) bishop of Gardar in the period while the Great Schism was developing. That community survived at least until the period contemporary with the voyages of Columbus.
Any help in gathering details on any would be helpful. (I've got papers I'm supposed to be writing as well.) - Aristibule *end
- I can post the information regarding the Old Believers' use of the Roman Canon until the 1960s; Fr. John Shaw of ROCOR actually translated the liturgy in question. Also, Fr. Andrew Phillips wrote up the details of the Vinland use of the Western Rite. I'd happily note the information and link the articles. However, Andrew pointed out on "westernriteorthodoxy" that the article didn't go into the pre-Schism history of the Western Rite, per se. He suggested we start another article. I think this may be worth having all in one place. What think the rest of ye? I'm amenable to either solution. -- Ben Johnson
- Thanks Ben. If we could begin with Fr. Andrew's information, and I'll add and correct from there. I believe I've read it before, and I know some details he might not been aware of. I can understand a separate area for pre-Schism history, but the area I'm interested in is that 'post-Schism' continuity of Western forms within the Eastern Church, or in the West where it has bearing upon canonical issues of our jurisdictions? Would that need to be in a separate article as well? - Aristibule


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Cal left his pumpkin at home by accident, so when I went to drop it off at his classroom (ordinarily in such cases I leave the forgotten item at the front desk and someone from the office ferries it upstairs to the classroom so as to minimize disruption--however, in this case the pumpkin was gigantic and when I offered to carry it up myself they happily left the hoisting to me) I kind of got roped into coming back in later that afternoon to help Cal's teacher with the activity. Honestly, my first instinct when the teacher asked me if I could be an extra set of adult hands (in the setting of 26 fourth graders wielding a variety of hollowed out gourds and serrated blades) was to beg off because look man, I'm busy. But that response was a reflex, ingrained from years and years of having to say no to stuff. Because I actually wasn't busy that day. And having the time to do things like this in the kids' classroom was precisely the reason that I went part-time in the first place.
Which brings me to the topic for today, which I have deliberately been shying away from because the kind of honesty with which I want to discuss this is precisely the kind of thing that causes fistfights to break out in the comments section of The New York Times "Motherlode" blog. (Leaving aside the truly questionable decision to call a parenting series "Motherlode," because random puns aside, parenting is only for ladies, y'all!)
Joe and I agree that since I have made the move to go part-time at work, the quality of our home life has never been better. The benefits are obvious--I have more time to spend with each kid, I am more connected with what they are doing at school and at home, we can actually schedule doctors and dentist and teacher appointments, we are all eating better, acting out less...the list goes on and on. And there are moments every single day when I think, "Thank god we finally decided to do this." The mornings I spend with Nina after the boys are off at school. Time that I get to carve out to spend with Mack alone, which I hardly ever had a chance to do before. Having time for actual conversations with Cal, who for all his idiosyncrasies as a young child is actually turning out to be a pretty cool and funny kid. These are the obvious good things. These are the things that make it clear that the decision to dial back at work was worthwhile.
But of course these are the things that just make parenting in general a joy, and between these clearly treasured moments are the interstices, the webbing, the connective tissue that binds the important bits in a dense fiber of the banal. Because for every morning I spend with Nina watching the sun rise over the Chattahoochee there is of course an entire day of chasing down lost shoes and changing diapers and washing clothes, cleaning up one mess in the kitchen while Nina is creating the next mess because allowing her to create the next mess is the only way I can buy time to clean up the first mess. For every special afternoon with Mack there is the endless run of school pickups, school dropoffs, making sure that lunchboxes are packed and thermoses are not lost at school, corralling shoes and socks and sweatshirts and more socks, items which surely must walk around at night after we're asleep because otherwise there's no explanation for how they spread out and hide all over the house. And for every pumpkin carving activity I do at the kids' school, there is an hour of sweeping up sticky pumpkin seeds, picking up strips of newspaper and magazines that have glued themselves to the linoleum with bioglue, and wiping down desk after desk with antibacterial wipes and hoping to god that the janitorial staff at night come equipped with mops. (Though to be clear: I was more than happy to help, and Cal's teacher was a brave, brave man to even consider staging the mass class pumpkin carve-a-thon without a second adult around. We could have probably used another two or three adults, to be honest.)
It is in these moments, with the brooms or with the wet rags or running in and out of the supermarket or picking up the dropped (well, hurled) sippy cup again for the five hundredth time that I think: It doesn't have to be me doing this. This does not involved an advanced degree, or special training. ANYONE could do this. Or, perhaps more precisely to the point: I took a 40% pay cut in order to wash dishes and do laundry? DOES NOT COMPUTE.
(This is the part where people start polishing their pitchforks. Hey, you missed a spot!)
Look, I know that it's not the special advanced skill with which I drive to carpool or wash the dishes or make the school lunches that the time worthwhile--it's the fact that I'm doing it for my kids that makes it special. I get that. And I also get that, with parenthood, the amazing moments are not in the majority--that it is, in fact, the intermittent and punctuated nature of the awesome moments that make you get up each day and do all the non-awesome stuff over and over and over again. And that's probably true about most things in life, though I'm beginning to find that there's something different about spending a full day parenting rather than a full day being a doctor: it feels less special.
(And here is where you start jabbing the pitchforks. Jab on, gentle village people! Miss ye not the tender essential organs!)
And when I say "special," I don't mean to say that my kids aren't special, or that my parenting them isn't special. It's just that in the mundane moments, it feels like anyone could be doing this. I didn't need to go to college or medical school or spend five years in residency training to do that stuff. My educational background, or training, or the years I spent before I had kids doesn't inform my daily parenting in any meaningful way. It's just me, doing what millions and millions or other people are also doing at the exact same time--probably I'm not even doing as good a job as many of them are, because HAVE YOU SEEN PINTEREST? Just me, momming it up like a character in a Sunny Delight commercial, part of the hoarde, one of a type, a piece of a marketing demographic. And that's the part that doesn't feel special.
And the thing that bothers me is that I never considered myself someone who needed to feel special, or who cared about status. I don't make people call me "doctor," I don't wear my diplomas around my neck on a giant chain, and I think I've worked most of my professional life to try to put aside whatever ego may manifest in my persona because quite simply I don't think it serves any purpose. But obviously it must have mattered to me more than I thought, because while I recognize the luxury of spending more time with my children, and for all my whining I have plenty of help in keeping this family going; I still sometimes think, this is it? THIS is what I miss work two days a week to do?
Because at work, it sometimes seems like the significance of what you're doing is obvious. That the answer to the question, "What did you do today?" could be succinctly summed up by saying: I'm a doctor, I take care of patients. Boom. Instant credibility. Credibility to whom, unclear--perhaps it's just to justify things to myself. But on the days that I'm "off" with the kids...
But then how come it took up the whole damn day?
Obviously this is something I'm still working out in my brain, and clearly part of it is that there are societal indicators of what is considered "important work" that I have allowed to imprint on me (despite the fact that I obviously know that raising my children is important work, therefore the need to take more time to do it right). Also obvious to me is that this probably reflects poorly on my personality in some way--some sort of egomaniacal needs that are not being met by the quotidian tasks of parenting three young children being chief among my deficiencies. But I am curious, particularly after reading this article in the Times a few months ago--does this experience of "status loss" or this sense of becoming unmoored from part of your identity ring true for anyone else who decided to take one step back from a career that has in many ways defined them?


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Plant Sciences **UNA Equivalent - Environmental Biology major**
What can I do with this major?
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- Earn a landscape architect degree and obtain professional certification as a landscape architect for better positions, advancement opportunities, more responsibility, and higher pay.
- Participate in the annual American Landscape Contractor's Association competition.
>Turfgrass Science and Management
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Public Horticulture
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Plant Sciences, Horticulture, and Biotechnology
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- A master's or doctoral degree may be necessary for advancement. Some federal and private agency work, consulting positions, and especially research positions require a graduate degree.
- Maintain a strong grade point average to be competitive for graduate school admission.
General Information and Strategies
- For entry level positions in most areas of landscape design, horticulture, turf, agronomy and biotechnology, a bachelor's degree is sufficient. A graduate degree may be necessary for advancement in some fields such as research and consulting.
- Depending upon which specialty you choose, supplement curriculum with important supporting courses: business, journalism, planning, geology, entomology, soils, biology. Take communications courses and develop computer skills.
- Majoring in two subject areas or pursuing a minor can increase marketability. For example, study in landscape design and business, or public horticulture and journalism, can lead to greater opportunities.