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For LimoLama...
In the furnace of summer, the timeless; in whirling snowflakes, the timeless; in heavy traffic and rush hours, the timeless,;in the cool breeze over the lake, the timeless, in puddles, rubbish bags, flowers and weeds, towers of steel and mountains deep, the timeless.
You cannot leave this place and this time, therefore it is within this time and place that the timelees unfolds.
In the Genjokoan Eihei Dogen teaches about ashes being only ashes, firewood only firewood, he says that Spring does not become Summer. A child does not grow into an adult. We are lived by thusness and every manifestation has no before or after.
What is the before of the wave? What is its after?A wave cannot be separated from sea- land- sky- planet- galaxy- universe, all sentient beings arise in one wave. A single wave doesn t meet its origin, does not touch its end. Life is nothing but life, death nothing but death. Every single timeless manifestation reflects the roundness of the moon.
Worries, projects, becoming, coming and going are narratives and stories, fictions and frictions made by a a fearful and shaky self.
To surrender, to drop body and mind, is to allow the great body of reality to fully live our life, and not to mind much, not to worry. It is not up to us to do the work. We are very good at messing things up.
There is no Buddha out of this life of ours and it is too big to understand. That's why we sit and let Buddha do it all. As we sit we manifest enlightened activity without knowing or seeing. Nobody, No Buddha left to care or mind anyway.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
In park, at hotels, Downtown Disney, or outside the Disney complex... we have you covered. Where to shop, stop for a bite with kids, have romantic evening for adults, or dance the night away.
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For a new salad that I have been thinking about I wanted a nice and cool and creamy dressing and I was thinking about trying something a little bit different, an avocado dressing. I am so totally addicted to avocados and I am always looking for new ways to enjoy them! I was originally planning on including diced avocado in the salad but I liked the idea of a creamy avocado dressing even more. For the avocado dressing I was thinking about starting it off a lot like a guacamole with plenty of fresh ingredients like cilantro, lime juice and even some jalapeno peppers to add a touch of heat. A quick search of the internet for these ingredients turned up a recipe for an avocado dressing pretty much just like the one that I was thinking about on Skinny Taste . I did make one quick change to the recipe by including some mayonnaise which goes fabulously well with avocados. I have to say that this avocado dressing is amazingly good; nice and creamy so so fresh and vibrant! Now I just need to resist eating it all by the spoonful so that it can make it into the salad!
Updated 20150831: Added new photos.
Creamy Avocado Dressing (aka Guacamole Buttermilk Dressing)
A cool and creamy avocado dressing with tangy buttermilk, fresh cilantro and lime juice along with some spicy jalapeno pepper.
- 1 medium avocado
- 1 small jalapeno
- 1/4 cup cilantro
- 1 lime, juice
- 1 green onion
- 1 clove garlic
- 3/4 cup buttermilk
- 1/4 cup mayonnaise (or greek yogurt)
- 1/2 teaspoon ground cumin
- salt and pepper to taste
- Puree everything in a blender until smooth. Store in fridge and finish within a few days.
Note: Use more buttermilk to make it thinner or less to make it thicker.
Avocado BLT Pasta Salad
BBQ Chicken Salad with Creamy Avocado Dressing
Chipotle Sweet Potato and Black Bean Quinoa Cakes with Creamy Avocado Sauce
Chipotle Roast Sweet Potato and Black Bean Quinoa Salad with Creamy Avocado Dressing
BBQ Chicken COBB Salad with Cilantro Lime Ranch Dressing
Taco Salad
The Best Guacamole
Jalapeno Popper Dressing
Cilantro Lime Vinaigrette
Roast Strawberry Balsamic Vinaigrette
Avocado and Roasted Tomatillo Salsa
Roasted Poblano Crema
Thai Sweet Chili Dressing
Pesto Guacamole
Kalamata Olive and Feta Vinaigrette
Caesar Salad Dressing
Cilantro Lime Ranch Dressing
Creamy Avocado Salsa Verde Dressing
Creamy Feta and Dill Dressing
Creamy Berry Poppy Seed Dressing
Guasacaca (Avocado Sauce)
Creamy Tomatillo Ranch Dressing
Cilantro Lemon Tahini Dressing


text:
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At K=5, the West Eurasians are split into Europeans (yellow) and West Asians (blue)
October 06, 2010
Eurasian ADMIXTURE (a precursor to Eurasian-DNA-Calc?)
At K=5, the West Eurasians are split into Europeans (yellow) and West Asians (blue)
28 comments:
- GrIQ said...
The central asian in French seems very high. Overall this admixture levels are similar to the admixture analysis of Davidski (Polako). And Spain in this experiment would have around ~64-65 european, ~3-4 north african, ~17 west asian, ~13 CAsian and the rest between SSA and E.Asian
- Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:39:00 pm
- Dienekes said...
The central asian in French seems very high
The labels correspond to the geographical origin of populations where each component is highest (bolded part in table), so we don't have to imagine Central Asian tribes moving to France. - Wednesday, October 06, 2010 4:03:00 pm
- princenuadha said...
Wow, the middle eastern component doesn't really distinguish the Fr. Basque from the French, only the central Asian one.
- Wednesday, October 06, 2010 5:16:00 pm
- ashraf said...
Thank you for the interesting topic
It seems that the population clines are rather geographical not ethnolinguistic (due to the fact that even until very recently the very majority of the populations were illetrate countryside inhabitants who will ,with time, adopt the language of the ruler class who afford to built a solid state[except of course very remote areas and areas inhabited by the same linguistic group of the ruling class newcomer]) which goes back at least to Neolithic times and bronze age migration[and to letter extent historical migration waves]waves could only diffuse some newer component with a gradient decreasing as far as we go away from the "bronze age newcomers homeland" but still, all this being said, the Central Asian green component disparity between indo-european speaking Frenches and Vasconic speaking Francian Basques is rather suggestingful.
My question is:
*Could we determine the spatial as well the temporal "homeland" of each component? and could we consider the homogeinity of Yorubas (100% Sub-Saharan African) and Hans (99% East Asian) as a "proof" that the Africanid (aka "negroid") and the Mongoloid biocultural "homeland" would be , respectively, Africa and Eastern Asia.
Thanks - Wednesday, October 06, 2010 5:53:00 pm
- Onur Dincer said...
It is obvious (once again) from the uniform distribution of a very small and very similar amount of the "Mongoloid component" in most of the West Eurasian populations at K=3 that it isn't actually a Mongoloid component in them but a misleading result of using relatively isolated and drifted populations like Sardinians and Basques. In Mozabites, OTOH, the same allegedly "Mongoloid component" is "pretty diminished" due to the significant Negroid admixture.
- Wednesday, October 06, 2010 7:26:00 pm
- pconroy said...
This confirms what Polako found, that North Russians are very similar to Orkeynar - thus, as I mentioned earlier - are a poor proxy for North Western Europeans. - Wednesday, October 06, 2010 9:24:00 pm
- Dienekes said...
At K=7, the Druze split off from the W Asian cluster. I think it will be feasible to do at least one K a night for a while, so let's see how many of these populations will be re-discovered from the data.
- Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:57:00 pm
- Dienekes said...
This confirms what Polako found, that North Russians are very similar to Orkeynar - thus, as I mentioned earlier - are a poor proxy for North Western Europeans.
I don't see how this follows from being similar to N Russians. Actually they are not that similar, as they lack the Yellow component (K=6). - Wednesday, October 06, 2010 11:01:00 pm
- pconroy said...
What I mean is that at K=6, the other West Europeans, have a significant West Asian component, lacking in the Orkneyar and Russians - e.g. French (13%), French Basque (12%).
What I've gathered from Polako's results, are that:
1. The Irish/British would be similar to the French, but the West Asian component is under 10%
2. The North Russians have less than 2% East Asian component
So therefore the Orkenyar are more similar to North Russians than any North West European population - ergo not a good proxy sample for NW Europeans. - Thursday, October 07, 2010 12:40:00 am
- Vincent said...
I think it'd be interesting to skip directly to k=19 and see how well the 19 sample populations get picked up.
- Thursday, October 07, 2010 12:52:00 am
- pconroy said...
I agree - like the French cattle paper - Thursday, October 07, 2010 1:12:00 am
- Marnie said...
The Orkney Islanders are a proxy for themselves.
Wish we could see the Orkney sample run against the Norse, Shetlanders, Welsh, Irish, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Icelanders, Eastern Scots and Sami peoples. Something like that.
In other words, there needs to be more samples from Northern Europe if there is going to be any understanding of the appearance of various Asian components in Western Europe.
Why would you exclude the Orkney sample because it is indicating an Asian component?
Which other "West European" populations have this? Why? - Thursday, October 07, 2010 1:42:00 am
- Fanty said...
"What I've gathered from Polako's results, are that:
1. The Irish/British would be similar to the French, but the West Asian component is under 10%
2. The North Russians have less than 2% East Asian component"
Where have you gathered that?
In Polakos results the Orkadians are similiar to Norse, Swedes, Germans, French and British.
They are no were close to Northern Russians.
There are the Germans, Swedes, Poles and Belorussians between the Orkadians and the North Russians. - Thursday, October 07, 2010 1:50:00 am
- Average Joe said...
How about including some British, Irish, Dutch and German samples?
- Thursday, October 07, 2010 2:23:00 am
- Dienekes said...
I think it'd be interesting to skip directly to k=19 and see how well the 19 sample populations get picked up.
Too slow, even at K=8 with all 540K markers. - Thursday, October 07, 2010 10:27:00 am
- might be said...
Fantastic blog!
It is unrealistic to separate individual human populations of the same region (say Europe) by ADMIXTURE (or any other similar structure-like approach)just as was done in the cattle paper. It is likely that only popultions with a lot of drift - Kalash in Pakistan for example - will get their own "colour". The populations just are not different enough. The new components at higher Ks will be distributed across populations (with clines). Moreover, at these very high K values the algorithm will probably not converge (meaning that parallel runs will not arrive at the same result). To save calculation time you can thin the dataset by geting rid of some LD using PLINK for example. See Admixture manual. - Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:29:00 pm
- Fanty said...
"My guess is that he is using a high-K estimate."
This is from the calculation he now uses with FTDNA Family Finder members:
K5 Intra-West-East-North-Asian: (rounded up or down, by the rounding laws)
Amerindian: 1%
Anatolia/Caucasus: 4%
North-East European: 85%
North Eurasian (Yakut etc): 9%
East Asian: 0.3%
Amerindian: 0.7%
Anatolia/Caucasus: 18%
North-East European: 80%
North Eurasian (Yakut etc): 0.4%
East Asian: 0.4%
My own results (German blend from all over the northern half of the German Empire from the Dutch border to the Russian border.:
Amerindian: 1.5%
Anatolia/Caucasus: 20%
North-East European: 77%
North Eurasian (Yakut etc): 1%
East Asian: 0%
K6 Intra West Eurosian (Again the calculation he used on the FTDNA members):
Mediteranean: 6%
SoutheastEuropean/Anatolian/Caucasian: 1%
Middle Eastern: 3%
East/North-East European: 67%
Westeuropean: 22%
North Aftican: 1%
Mediteranean: 10%
SoutheastEuropean/Anatolian/Caucasian: 5%
Middle Eastern: 0.08%
East/North-East European: 38%
Westeuropean: 46%
North Aftican: 0.5%
My own results:
Mediteranean: 23%
SoutheastEuropean/Anatolian/Caucasian: 4%
Middle Eastern: 0.6%
East/North-East European: 44%
Westeuropean: 28%
North African: 0% - Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:43:00 pm
- Dienekes said...
Amerindian: 1%
Anatolia/Caucasus: 4%
North-East European: 85%
North Eurasian (Yakut etc): 9%
East Asian: 0.3%
I don't see where this particular breakup is coming from. How are e.g., Pathans supposed to fit into this scheme, which seems to be lacking the Central Asian component?
Is the methodology explained anywhere? - Friday, October 08, 2010 12:06:00 am
- Fanty said...
"Is the methodology explained anywhere?"
I can only name you what apear to be the anchors he uses (or where the clusters are the greatest in):
K6 Intra European:
Western European (Frensh Basque)
East-Northeastern European (Chuvash)
Southeast European/Anatolian/Caucasus (Georgian)
Mediteranean (Sardinian)
North Africa (Mozabites)
Middle Eastern (Saudi Arabia)
K5 Euro-Asia-Amerind ...
Amerind (Karitiana)
Anatolian/Georgian (seems pretty even between Georgian and Armenian)
Northeasteuropean (Lithuania)
North Eurasian (Yakut)
East Asian (Dai)
I also know there is quiet some amazingly large difference between the "North Russians" from the reference population and his Russian 23andme project members. Who somehow apear almost as distant from those "North Russians" than they apear to Germans. But apear very close to Belorus and Polish 23andme profiles.
"Pconroy" would say: "Northern Russians apear to be not a good proxy for Russians!" ;-)
You recall this map I did from his 23andme thingy?
The 23andme Russians are all in the region where Russia overlaps with Belorussia. All the other parts close to the 23andme Fins and the Chuvash reference are the "Northern Russians".
"How are e.g., Pathans supposed to fit into this scheme, which seems to be lacking the Central Asian component?"
I think Pathans are more like southasia.
Its totaly lacking ;)
But already visibe in the name: "K5 Intra-West-East-North-Asian:"
And the anchor list too. There is no Anchor in that region to mark Iranian tribes like the Pathans. - Friday, October 08, 2010 12:51:00 am
- Marnie said...
might be:
From the ADMIXTURE manual:
"As a rule of thumb, we have found that 10,000 markers suffice to perform GWAS correction
for continentally separated populations (for example, African, Asian, and European populations
FST > :05) while more like 100,000 markers are necessary when the populations are within a continent (Europe, for instance, FST < 0:01)."
Dienekes, I see you're running 540,814 markers. A third of them are European. So don't you need more "markers" to pick out populations within Europe, for instance? In any case, it's very interesting that a distinct population for the Druze was resolved.
As K increases, could you let us know the termination criteria for this run? Are you converging or exceeding "N" iterations?
Thinning the marker set for linkage disequilibrium would seem to be laborious. ADMIXTURE is begging to be set up for parallelization on multiple platforms. Anybody know if this is in the works?
Another team seems to have done this. Anybody heard of parLEA? The paper is open source:
http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/11/1440.full - Friday, October 08, 2010 3:13:00 am
- Marnie said...
Sorry Dienekes. Your marker size is OK and just above the "rule-of-thumb" of > 100,000 markers for the Euro population.
Again, this speaks to a runtime/marker size requirement limitation for ADMIXTURE. At K=7, sounds like you're taking at least a day. So for a minimal data set for Eurasia~=500,000, at K=7, you're taking about a day.
Don't know what platform you're running on.
Again, I'd be curious to know what your runs (convergence, runtime) look like for k > 7.
Anybody tried changing the convergence condition?
ie. admixture -a qn2 ...
(manual, section 2.8) - Friday, October 08, 2010 3:34:00 am
Those admix runs all depend on which ethnic groups are used, and from what geographic region.
Dienekes is using one African reference, the Yoruba, and one East Asian reference, the Han Chinese. West Eurasians, Central South Asians and North Africans probably have admix from Africa, and other parts of Asia other than from the Yoruba, a West African ethnic group, or the Han Chinese, one ethnic group from East Asia. That is the problem 23andMe have encountered with American blacks and mixed race people; using one reference from Africa, and one reference from Asia does not work well in finding out admixture or racial composition. With Europeans, no one has been able to tease out Mesolithic, Neolithic, Indo-European, North African, Islamic Middle Eastern, Central Asian or East Asian contributions to the makeup of Europeans. The best that is done is ambiguous labels like Mediterranean, high in Sardinian Islanders and so on.
My interest in admixture is knowing what is what, and when, and to whom can the admix be attributed. I would like to know how much contribution came from the Neolithics, and separated from later Middle Eastern contributions. After all the immigration events are separated by thousands of years. - Friday, October 08, 2010 9:30:00 am
- Dienekes said...
Dienekes, I see you're running 540,814 markers. A third of them are European. So don't you need more "markers" to pick out populations within Europe, for instance? In any case, it's very interesting that a distinct population for the Druze was resolved.
The trouble is that Europeans have relatively low distances from each other, so the subdivisions occur among other populations first.
It's possible to speed it up of course by reducing either the likelihood convergence criteria or pruning the markers. That will no doubt allow most populations to be resolved, but the admixture estimates will suffer (inferred "mixedness" increases as the number of markers decreases). - Friday, October 08, 2010 10:56:00 am
- might be said...
hi again.
Marnie: thinning the dataset is very easy and quick. see indep-pairwise in PLINK. after that you just use --keep for the plink.prune.in subset. for a 1000 ind 600000snp set it takes a few hours. - Friday, October 08, 2010 11:03:00 am
- Fanty said...
"My interest in admixture is knowing what is what, and when, and to whom can the admix be attributed. I would like to know how much contribution came from the Neolithics, and separated from later Middle Eastern contributions. After all the immigration events are separated by thousands of years."
Well, we all want this.
But I doubt that this is possible without knowing the DNA of exactly those mentioned people.
If I imagine mixing tea, coffee, coke, juice etc...
There is no way to soort out at what time the coke was put in.
Its also questionable if its possible to sort out if the "Sugar" component ist from the coke or if it was sugared coffee involved.
And sometimes its even worse.
Its still disputed if something like "Indoeuropeans" ever existed as a people or if this is only a language and culture that spread. As long as this problem is not sorted out, the question, what the DNA of the indoeuropeans actually is, is kind of off.
I want to know some other things too: Why have all Europeans the same mothers (mtDNA) but different fathers (Y-DNA)? ;)
Yeah, most of us tend to think in Y-DNA because it seems to make sense and ignore mtDNA because it does seem to not make any sense at all.
Who spread the blue eyes mutation all over the northern half of Europe? A external visible indicator that autosomal DNA must have a North/South split, at least in one of the many layers. And all that in the last 6k years (blue eyes mutation is meant to have happend 6k-10k ago in the Ukraine and ALL modern day blue eyed humans are suposed to have it inherited from the same person....kind of unbelievable)
Thats a connection between Northern Russians and Orcadians btw. too ;-)
I have a lot of hope in A-DNA to solve some problems. Like debunking Y-DNA drift effects (wich would be the case if populations would have totaly different Y-DNA/mtDNA setup but close A-DNA)
But some things it wont solve. Unless, we have ancient A-DNA to compare. And a lot of it from all overthe world and from each milenia. Wich we will never have. - Friday, October 08, 2010 11:56:00 am
- Marnie said...
"The trouble is that Europeans have relatively low distances from each other, so the subdivisions occur among other populations first."
Your K=7 run likely indicates that the populations of Europe still have real admixture in them. The Orcadians have both Euro and Central Asian components in them, and the Central Asian component is higher for them than the French. As someone with a partly Scottish background, I think that's real.
The French have a higher subcomponent of Western Asian in them. Perhaps that's a result of either a refugium population infusing into France from Corsica and Sardinia or Greek (Marseilles) influence. Probably both.
Maybe that's too simply, but there's a hint of both in your k=7 run. (Actually, you can see West and Central Asia in Euro populations at k=6.)
I don't mean to get on your case, Dienekes, but it would be good to know runtime, platform type and convergence (yes, no) for these runs.
might be:
Thanks for the recommendation about pruning. What are your observations about loss of accuracy. How much redundancy is there in a data set like the one Dienekes just ran?
Also, give the massive about of raw computer power out there, again, this problem should be parallelized. Forget about messing around with datasets! ADMIXTURE, where is your option for parallel runs??!!
Thanks! Very informative. - Friday, October 08, 2010 5:26:00 pm
- might be said...
I have not seen any loss of (in fact change in) results after pruninig (at least for ADMIXTURE). In fact, LD pruning is recommended both by clustering algorithm writers (see STRUCTURE or ADMIXTURE manuals)and even more so for smartpca of EIGENSTRAT.
About parallel runs of ADMIXTURE: I'm not sure what you mean - distributing a single run on different cores? If yes then I don't really see a need for that. Since in a normal setting you would anyhow have to run say 100 runs at each K to see how the Loglikelihoods behave then that's where you do it in parallel. You run say 1000 runs (10 diffrent Ks) at the same time on 1000 cores. - Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:09:00 pm
- Marnie said...
might be:
I think you mean throwing say, 10 different K's and 10 different cflag termination criteria values in parallel?
With the parallel cflag runs, you'd be hoping to catch the minimal cflag condition for convergence? I guess that would change with K.
That sounds like a good brute force way of evading mucky convergence problems. :) - Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:03:00 am


text:
Topic Index
Anatomy of the Skin
Skin Tests
Describing a Skin Condition
Common Skin Disorders
Non-Infectious Skin Conditions
Benign Skin Growth and Pigmentation Disorders
Skin Injury
Online Resources
The skin is the largest organ of the body, covering the entire body. As the outer protective covering of the body, it is exposed to the environment, making it vulnerable to growths, rashes, discoloration, cysts, burns, injuries, infections, and other disorders.
Dermatology is the study of skin diseases and conditions. A dermatologist treats disorders relating to the skin, hair, and nails.
A dermatologist is a physician who has completed medical school, at least one year of postdoctoral training and three or more years of intensive residency training in dermatology. After medical school, internship, and residency, a dermatologist is eligible to take the board certification examination offered by the American Board of Dermatology.
Other physicians and specialists, may be involved in the prevention and treatment of skin disorders.


text:
Too many people won't give BlackBerry 10 a fair chance because they're emotionally invested in other platforms, probably the iPhone. Those people are doing themselves and their companies a disservice. Observed dispassionately, BlackBerry 10 appears to be a compelling phone platform for business users, and if BlackBerry has earned anything over the years, it's the right to be taken seriously in meeting business needs.
Running a business intelligently means making intelligent decisions based on business needs, not personal prejudice. BlackBerry (née Research In Motion)'s biggest impediment to recovery is the tendency among humans to resort to prejudice. Observed dispassionately, BlackBerry 10 appears to be a compelling phone platform for business users.
Of course, we're still early in this process. All I've seen is demos on a webcast; I haven't even held a device in my hands and I certainly haven't given it the testing in a real-world environment that it would need in order to be considered for serious business use. But if BlackBerry has earned anything over the years, it's the right to be taken seriously in meeting business needs.
Several years ago, when users became enthralled with iPhones and began ditching their BlackBerries, it wasn't because the BlackBerry wasn't meeting their business needs. It was because the iPhone could plausibly do so and was so much more pleasant and fun to use. The business capabilities have been back-filled in the iPhone over the years since, but BlackBerry still has the strengths that gave it years of dominance pre-iPhone.
And now, with BB10, it plausibly has a new, surprising strength: productivity. Personally, I've never been all that fond of my iPhone. I always find simple tasks to be inconvenient and non-intuitive. BB10's interface has a design called BlackBerry Flow, which allows you to move between tasks easily with gestures. Once you learn the gestures you can do stuff quickly with only your thumb. See the video below:
That's just one reason why BlackBerry 10 should appeal to you for business use. Another is BlackBerry Balance, its separation of work and personal spaces on the phone. IT gets to manage apps and data in the work space and separate the work items from the personal items to whatever degree it wishes. IT can, for instance, prevent the user from copying data in the work space and pasting it into the personal space, as demonstrated in this video:
Finally, BlackBerry has raised the standard for base-level management security for mobile devices. It pretty much invented the MDM (Mobile Device Management) field with features like remote wipe. Apple's MDM APIs were a rip-off of the BlackBerry interfaces. But dozens of companies like SOTI, MobileIron and Apperian have emerged over the years to fill in the considerable gaps in mobile security left by MDM. These companies use a variety of techniques, including MAM (Mobile Application Management), that have come collectively to be called EMM (Enterprise Mobility Management).
One of the main points of EMM is to balance the needs of businesses to secure their assets with the needs and rights of users on their personal devices. BlackBerry is baking some of these techniques into its BES (BlackBerry Enterprise Service) 10 product. See this brochure for more on this approach. These features are not shipping yet; the company estimates Q2 2013.
Watching the BB10 rollout I was prepared to take them seriously, but I wasn't prepared to buy in. But now I'm seriously open to it. I'm up for a new phone in the next few months and I know now that I can't get one without giving BlackBerry 10 a fair shot. You should do the same.
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UPDATED: 10:30 p.m.
The inauguration of Hong Kong's Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying, on July 1, 2012, was denounced by democracy activists who objected to the manner of his appointment at the hands of a few hundred members of an elite electoral college. Exactly six months into his term of office, the political climate has intensified.
Mass demonstrations took place on New Year's Day, with tens of thousands of protesters calling for the leader of China's freest city to step down and demanding that the post be filled on a directly elected basis. University of Hong Kong enumerators said that over 30,000 took part.
Pro-Leung rallies were also staged, and though much smaller (police estimate a total of 8,500 participants), they nonetheless reflected a polarization of political opinion that has become more pronounced during Leung's administration. In one corner, a mostly middle-class movement, with well-educated young people at its core, is determined to maintain and expand upon democratic freedoms as a bulwark against mainland-Chinese encroachment, while propounding a strong Hong Kong identity distinct from the rest of the country. In the other, a movement drawn from pro-China trades unions, the working class and seniors seeks greater harmony and integration with Beijing, both for patriotic reasons and as a means of buttressing the local economy. "Freedom, democracy and culture are only part of the superstructure," says pro-government demonstrator Tung Wah-hing, a retired engineer. "If the economy improves, democracy will improve."
(TIME's Asia Cover Story: Can Hong Kong Trust Leung Chun-ying?)
The immediate pretext for the antigovernment demonstrations on Jan. 1 is the question of Leung's personal integrity, which has taken a battering from a deepening scandal over unauthorized additions to his house on Peel Rise, one of Hong Kong's most expensive addresses. The enlargements, which came to light shortly before Leung's inauguration, may appear minor, consisting of a small storage room, a trellis and other works. But in a densely crowded metropolis, where even affluent families can live in spaces far smaller than what their counterparts would enjoy in other developed cities, the idea that Leung had made the additions without obtaining the required authorizations and paying the appropriate fees is deeply dismaying. Compounding the damage to his reputation is the fact that his win against Henry Tang, his main opponent in the election last year, hinged upon a shift in public opinion that favored Leung after it was revealed that Tang's house featured extensive illegal additions. Leung — a surveyor by profession and veteran of Hong Kong's property sector — famously criticized Tang, during a televised debate, for making the enlargements.
The scandal worsened during December, when it was revealed that one of Leung's former homes, in the tony seaside district of Stanley, was also under investigation for unauthorized additions. Leung's wooden performance during a Legislative Council appearance on the issue on Dec. 10 caused further damage to his credibility and even prompted rare criticism from a pro-government legislator, who described the Chief Executive as "obstinate."
The scandal is being played out against an already harsh political backdrop for Leung. Since he took office six months ago, public discontent has escalated over everything from rising housing costs and pollution to the social and economic changes being wrought by an influx of mainland Chinese, who are making significant impacts on the city, whether as emigrants, tourists or investors. There was also an outcry over an attempt to introduce into the school curriculum classes on "national education" — courses seen by many parents and students as Communist Party brainwashing.
(MORE: Why Hong Kong Wants Nothing to Do with 'Patriotism' for Now)
Leung has tried to address livelihood issues and concerns about infringements by mainlanders, with some success. But further progress has been stymied by the controversy over his integrity and by a lack of clear answers to the big questions that underpin all current political debate in Hong Kong: How can the government and the legislature become more representative of the city's increasingly sophisticated populace? And how will Hong Kong's future be best guaranteed — by cooperating with China or by standing up to it?
In 1997, when Hong Kong ceased to be a British colony and became a semiautonomous region of China, many assumed that, true to its pragmatic and businesslike nature, it would quickly fit in with its new sovereign power. But in fact there has been a creeping cultural separation between the two. To the great embarrassment of Beijing, the colonial-era flag is now increasingly unfurled at demonstrations by protesters who see it as a symbol of everything that makes Hong Kong different to the rest of China, including rule of law, multiculturalism, openness to the world and media freedom. At the New Year's Day march, flag waver Steven Chan says he thinks of himself as a Hong Kong person, not Chinese. "We have the same blood but not the same values. That's why we aren't Chinese," he says. "Even though this is a colonial flag, it represents freedom."
At the root of much political frustration is the inability of Hong Kong people to elect their own leader. Anti-Leung protesters have scathingly nicknamed him Six Eight Nine after the 689 votes he received during last year's election, during which a carefully vetted committee of just 1,200 voters cast ballots for one of three candidates. Beijing has given 2017 as the earliest date at which it will allow Hong Kong to directly elect a Chief Executive, but is quite capable of shelving the matter indefinitely should the political climate worsen in its wayward enclave. In the meantime, a culture of protest is growing as Hong Kong's disenfranchised masses have no choice but to take to take to the streets to make themselves heard.
(MORE: Q&A: Hong Kong's New Leader Is a Divisive Figure but Aims to Build Bridges)
Popular protest dealt a lethal blow to the administration of Hong Kong's first Chief Executive, Tung Chee-hwa. He stepped down in the middle of his second term after several missteps — including a bid to introduce national-security legislation, which many feared would curb freedoms — brought half a million onto the streets. That precedent makes it at least conceivable that Leung may not serve his full five-year term. He is already facing an impeachment motion over his unauthorized building works. The vote, which will take place on Jan. 7, will not succeed, as it only carries the support of the Legislative Council's democratic minority, but as Allen Lee Peng-fei, a seasoned political commentator, notes, "The sentiment is there."
According to Lee, "Whether he should step down or not is a decision for Beijing to make." While Xi Jinping, who will soon be China's President, recently expressed approval of Leung, the Chinese leadership must now recognize that Leung's administration has sparked a political crisis. If he is to resign, it will not happen overnight. "Even if the authorities have a Plan B, it takes time to prepare," says Joseph Cheng, a political scientist at City University of Hong Kong. "It is most unlikely that he will step down in the coming year or so, and I think people know it, even the demonstrators." In the meantime, given the flak he increasingly coming under, Leung might start contemplating another addition to his Peel Rise home: a bunker.
— With reporting by Patrick Boehler


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Drones have not been spotted flying over the little town of Deer Trail, Colo., about 55 miles east of Denver.
But that hasn't stopped an effort by some in the town of 550 residents to make it legal to shoot down the unmanned aerial vehicles.
On Oct. 8, people there "will vote on whether to issue permits to hunt drones," The Associated Press writes.
"The idea of hunting the federal government's drones began as one man's symbolic protest against a surveillance society. But other townspeople embraced the idea as possible magnet for tourism — and revenue — in the tiny community of about 550 residents. If voters approve, Deer Trail would charge $25 for drone hunting licenses, valid for one year.
" 'They'll sell like hot cakes, and it would be a real drone hunting license,' said Deer Trail resident Phillip Steel, who drafted the ordinance. 'It could be a huge moneymaker for the town.'
"The town would offer a $100 bounty reward for shooters who bring in debris from an unmanned aircraft from the U.S. government."
Along with the fact that no drones have actually been seen and that any would likely be well above the range of the shotguns that the proposed ordinance would allow to be used, there's the complicating fact that drone hunting could land you in jail.
"Shooting at an unmanned aircraft could result in criminal or civil liability, just as would firing at a manned airplane," the Federal Aviation Administration has warned, according to the AP.
Copyright 2021 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


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Lawrence v. Texas
Historic case that overturned all remaining state sodomy laws in the United States
In 1998, John Lawrence and Tyron Garner were arrested in Lawrence's Houston home and jailed overnight after officers responding to a false report found the men having sex. The two men were convicted of violating Texas's "Homosexual Conduct" law, which made it a crime for two people of the same sex to have oral or anal sex, even though those sex acts were legal in Texas for people to engage in with persons of a different sex. Lambda Legal quickly responded to represent Lawrence and Garner. Battling for years in the Texas courts, we sought to overturn the criminal convictions (which made the two men registerable "sex offenders" in several states) and to have Texas's law declared unconstitutional. When the highest court in Texas eventually refused to even hear our arguments, we convinced the U.S. Supreme Court to take the case. In a stunning victory, the highest court in the land found the "Homosexual Conduct" law unconstitutional and established, for the first time, that lesbians and gay men share the same fundamental liberty right to private sexual intimacy with another adult that heterosexuals have.
The mere existence of sodomy laws often had been used to justify wholesale discrimination against LGBT people. In striking down those laws, this historic ruling removed a major roadblock in the battle for LGBT rights. No longer can gay people be considered "criminals" because they love others of the same sex. Moreover, laws that deny gay people liberty or equal protection no longer can be justified on moral grounds alone.
Lambda Legal's Impact
The breadth of this landmark case is extraordinary. The Supreme Court declared all sodomy laws unconstitutional, putting an end to the sodomy laws that remained on the books in 13 states at the time of the ruling, including laws that criminalized only same-sexual conduct and laws that criminalized oral and anal sex irrespective of the sex of the participants. The Court also reversed Bowers v. Hardwick, its 1986 decision that upheld Georgia's sodomy law on reasoning that had been extraordinarily harmful to gay people's struggles both for liberty and equality. The decision's sweeping language about gay people's equal rights to liberty marked a new era of legal respect for the LGBT community. Lawrence v. Texas is considered the most significant gay rights breakthrough of our time.
- September 1998 Police arrest John Lawrence and Tyron Garner in Lawrence's private apartment and charge them with having consensual sex in violation of Texas's "Homosexual Conduct" law.
- December 1998 Motions to quash the charges against Lawrence and Garner as unconstitutional are denied by the Harris County Criminal Court. The men plead "nolo contendere," preserving their right to pursue their constitutional challenge to the law.
- November 1999 Lambda Legal presents arguments to the 14th Court of Appeals in Houston challenging the men's conviction.
- June 2000 Court reverses the conviction of the two men and overturns Texas's "Homosexual Conduct" law, declaring it unconstitutional.
- March 2001 After rehearing the case, a larger panel of the Texas Court of Appeals overturns the earlier appellate ruling, upholding the men's conviction.
- April 2002 Texas's highest criminal court, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, refuses to hear Lambda Legal's appeal.
- July 2002 Lambda Legal asks U.S. Supreme Court to review the constitutionality of Texas's "Homosexual Conduct" law. The case presents the high court with two independent constitutional claims that Lambda Legal urges it to review: one based on equal protection, the other based on rights of privacy and liberty.
- December 2002 U.S. Supreme Court agrees to hear the case.
- January 2003 Lambda Legal files its brief urging U.S. Supreme Court to overturn Texas's "Homosexual Conduct" law.
- March 2003 Lambda Legal presents oral arguments before U.S. Supreme Court challenging the constitutionality of the Texas "Homosexuality Conduct" law.
- June 2003 Victory! In landmark ruling for lesbian and gay Americans' civil rights, U.S. Supreme Court strikes down the "Homosexual Conduct" law.


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Monday, January 17, 2011
"God Exists" and "The Bible Is True"
Hello Aaron:
This may be my last reply, because you demonstrate a level of understanding of the history and reality of your own religion and holy book that really requires a "Bible and Christian History 101" course, not a few letters from an association volunteer. And even though I am involved in Austin with an Educational Foundation, I'm not here to spoon-feed you a semester's worth of information you could easily find online if you honestly even wanted to know how your Bible came to exist. I suggest you start here and follow the links to educate yourself on at least the basic facts about your own holy book:
There have been many versions of it—including many "final" versions of it. And today there are in fact at least three "orthodox" Bible versions that are accepted in mainstream Christianity; and these are not all based upon the same set of base manuscripts for their content. When you say "The Bible," then, you are using a word that refers to at least three different widely used anthologies of early Christian writings that are all considered "THE" holy Bible by different, large groups of people who all call themselves "Christians."
>The Bible was written by Moses - who yes, was a shepherd
There is no compelling evidence that Moses even existed, let alone that he wrote any part of the Bible. We have wildly exaggerated tales about him, mostly in Jewish mythology, but nothing to confirm this was ever a real man, any more than a figure like Paul Bunyon.
The idea Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament is a Jewish myth. Christian Bible scholars know this. May I ask where you obtained this information and who told you this was true? Further, can I ask you why you believed it without researching it yourself? Many Bibles today come with Translator's notes which would tell you—right there inside your Bible—that we don't have the identity of the author of the Pentateuch—the first five books that Moses is said to have authored.
"Modern biblical scholars see no signs of Mosaic authorship, but indications of much later writing"
>but also by a doctor/historian (luke)
Again, this is not a valid claim. It is not known who authored the gospel of Luke. It's just an old church traditional tale:
> and a guy who was a master of Jewish law (Paul).
Again, some books are attributed to Paul. But authorship assignment still requires speculation. There is no "fact" of who wrote the books within the Bible. But it is an undisputed reality that whatever is in there now is a revision of whatever was originally composed (which we no longer have).
Whoever is feeding you your information is unreliable and/or lying to you. Go to a Bible shop and open up the first page of each book in a NIV. You will see a page that tells you who the authors are *suspected* to be (if there is even a suspected author) and whether those assignments are based on scholarly guesses or just old religious traditions. What you will not find is anything conclusive to identify authorship to any high degree of certainty. And what you will not find is any credible Bible scholar who has studied these texts—believer in god or not—claiming they know who the authors actually are.
>Why would guys like Peter put embarrassing things about themselves in book where they're just trying to gain followers (Jesus calls Peter "Satan," peter deneies Christ). If you're tyring to lie to build a following, you don't do that.
Can you demonstrate Peter authored any book of the Bible and explain how you can be sure he did?
More importantly, when did I claim to know what anyone's motives were for authoring 2,000-year-old letters? I have no idea what motives some anonymous author had 2,000 years ago for writing a letter—and I am sure you don't, either. More importantly though, whatever was originally written is now gone. What we have now are altered texts that are no longer representative of the original writings.
I don't know if you're inclined to read more. I had been giving you very brief replies. My thinking was that if you couldn't even recognize your own reasoning was absurd (in my examples of how you reasoned about Gremlins vs. god), I wasn't sure a lengthy and densely informational response would be of any use to you (and would just waste my time). That said, I did put together a response to you, but mainly to post to our blog for the benefit of others who might actually be inclined to learn from it. However, if my assessment of you is incorrect, and you can follow the information below, here it is for your edification, broken down into three (hopefully easy-to-digest) parts.
1. Your support for your belief using "you can't prove it's not true" is irrational. And here is why:
You asserted god exists and the Bible is true; and you challenged someone who does not believe god exists and the Bible is true by asking if the claims "god exists" and "the Bible is true" could be disproved. However, you admitted you could not disprove gremlins exist; and when you admitted that, you acknowledged only that "maybe" they exist, but you "don't know" (meaning you aren't committed to saying if they do or do not exist).
But as someone who did not believe gremlins exist, who admitted he could not prove they do not exist, if your argument (i.e., I believe god exists because that claim cannot be disproved) is convincing, why do you not now believe gremlins do exist? Until you say it is true that gremlins exist, you are not a person who believes gremlins exist. That is you are still a nonbeliever in the existence of gremlins. Your position is merely it is possible they could exist, not that you believe they, in fact, do.
If you do not find an inability to prove gremlins do not exist to be a convincing argument for their existence, why did you use that same line of argumentation with me for your god, repeatedly? If even you demonstrate you don't accept it as compelling--what on Earth made you think anyone else would find it compelling?
2. "The Bible is true" does not make sense based on my understanding of the word "true."
"True" as I understand it, generally means "correlating to demonstrable reality." So, when you say "the Bible is true," I assume you mean that if we examine all of the best evidence for things claimed in the Bible, it will show a consistent positive correlation to what the Bible claims about reality. Since this is not the case, I don't know how you're using "true." Here are two examples of what I mean, one addressing extra-Biblical reality, and one addressing internal Biblical reality.
Example 1: Extra-Biblical example:
You asserted not that evolution is false, but that you believe god was the catalyst for evolution. If you aren't disputing evolution, then we can say that, in fact, we agree the Bible is not true in the case of Genesis and the account of how humans came to exist on Earth. According to the Bible, man popped fully formed and already communicating using language. And ultimately this same first human was wearing clothing and using agriculture--straight from his magical beginnings from dirt.
If we look at what evolutionary biologists put forward as the model of human evolution, then the Bible is not "true." There is fossil evidence, DNA, and beyond biological evolution, a demonstrable history of how and when human agriculture is first evidenced compared to how long humans had existed previously in nomadic or hunter-gatherer cultures. Additionally we can tell from excavations approximately when people began to fashion tools (and by proxy when the idea of "manufacturing" things, such as clothing, may have been introduced), and there is simply no evidence to support that the earliest humans would have been "truthfully" represented by the Genesis account. All of the evidence appears, in fact, not to correlate to that account as "true."
Example 2: Internal Biblical Example:
The New Testament passage (Gospel of) John 7:53-8:11 is as good an example as any. As an atheist, I have no objection to agreeing that the men and women who are hired to translate the best modern translations of the Bible are qualified people for the job. They are expert at reading and interpreting ancient languages that the average person wouldn't begin to have a clue about. Additionally, they are devoted specifically to the texts used within the Bible. These are men and women who have devoted significant portions of their lives and careers to the Biblical manuscripts specifically. And I accept them as "expert" when it comes to claims about those manuscripts.
In the NASB and NIV versions of the Bible (both reputable translations), if any person takes an interest in doing so, they have a wealth of input from these experts, literally, at their fingertips. There are marginal notes, footnotes, endnotes, etc., right on the pages where the text appears. Anyone can see what the translators have to say about the texts Christians are reading in their Bibles. And I can't imagine anyone claiming the people inserting these notes are not qualified to giving the best opinions of what the best and most current data demonstrates about what is "true" about these texts.
Throughout the pages, there are many insertions of notes that alert the reader that the text is in question or is disputed. It will alert you that this or that verse here says X, but in some other available manuscripts it does not say X (or says Y instead).
I chose John 7:53-8:11, because it is probably one of the most famous stories in the Bible about Jesus. It is the story of the adulterous woman--who is brought before Jesus for judgment. He there puts forward the famous line "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This has become a very popular story with Christians.
Yet, according to the translators' notes, it isn't included in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. They say outright and boldly, right on the pages of the NASB, that the story was added to the text later. These are translators who have a vested interest in the production and sale of Bibles being a successful industry. They have no cause to undermine their source of income by claiming "it's a fake!" And yet, that's what they're saying if you are someone who accepts this book as "true." If any group had a reason to lie or be biased about the Bible including reliable content, it would be people who work in the Bible-selling industry, selling to people who, like you, want very badly to believe it is "true"--and yet they're telling you (and me) it's not.
So, the best and most reliable evidence, considered by the best experts in the field, with no reason for bias against the text, does not align with your claim "the Bible is true." And you can see this yourself--as any Christian who is interested can also--just by opening a good Bible translation that includes translator notes.
So, I have no idea what you mean when you say "the Bible is true." I see no evidence that it should not be considered to include lies, errors, falsehoods--whatever you want to call them—basically statements that do not correlate with the best evidence we have to judge against in reality.
3. Your claim "god exists" is so far a meaningless statement, to which I cannot respond—since it makes no sense as you have stated it.
So far you haven't really explained what this claim means. I don't know what you're calling god, so I have no idea what to say about whether it exists or not. But for example, I accept the existence of many things—books, water, chairs, even oxygen (which can be demonstrated using balloons and fire, and many other methods). To me, "exist" is a word we use to assert that a particular item manifests in some way in demonstrable, material reality.
This is why it's interesting that you said only that "gremlins may exist" after admitting you could not disprove them. If I were to go into a classroom of 10-year-olds and ask them if gremlins exist, they would inform me gremlins are fairytale, mythical creatures that do not, in fact, exist. Their assessment has nothing to do with gremlins having been disproved. It would be a statement of the extreme lack of evidence for the existence of gremlins. In other words, the people who assert gremlins cause machines to malfunction, have never been able to produce a demonstration of what they're talking about. This leads the reasonable 10-year-old to assert that gremlins do not exist. That is, their manifestation within reality so far cannot be discerned from nothing.
So, we have two bins. One labeled "nonexistent" and one labeled "existence." Everything starts off in the "nonexistent" bin. And once it unambiguously manifests in reality in some way—either on its own, like the sun, or by some demonstration, like oxygen--it goes into the bin of "existence." What we don't do is put items into the "existence" bin BEFORE they are demonstrated to exist or before they manifest self-evidently in some measurable fashion.
Interestingly, a 10-year-old gets this, but you are so unwilling to admit your argument "you can't prove it doesn't exist, ergo it's reasonable to accept that it does" is a fail, that you have demonstrated you will even dishonestly assert you can't really say gremlins don't exist—even though you and I both know that if you were honest, you'd admit you don't give a second thought to asserting gremlins are myths. A 10-year-old is not only more reasonable than you, then, but also more honest.
My question to you is whether this thing—whatever it is you're calling god—"exists," in that it demonstrates a manifestation in reality that we can discuss. Or whether it is indiscernible from nothing? And if it's no different than nothing, I can't agree that "nothing exists." And I can't really examine what we're supposed to be talking about in such a case—and I can't see how you could, either? I have no data points to confirm to even begin a dialog with you about it. When you have some manifestation or demonstration, come back and we'll have "something" to talk about (rather than "nothing").
Thanks for writing.
I'm sorry to say that after this exchange Aaron replied that he'd rather believe in god and be wrong, than not believe. That's right, he threw Pascal's Wager at me, after all this trouble I went to jotting down these notes. But knowing it would go to use at the blog allowed me to avoid feelings of futility and disappointment.
When I replied that Pascal's Wager is a fail, but that he'd have to research it to find out why, he sent back a fairly large cut-and paste-apologist's Web site content that asserted Pascal's Wager was a fail because god demands devotion and real belief, not just someone playing a part.
I congratulated him on finding one reason Pascal's Wager fails, and gave him a few others as a bonus point for having looked it up at all. Then alerted him that copying and pasting without giving credit to a source is plagiarism, because it's like trying to claim someone else's ideas as your own. He had asked me if maybe Matt would write back to him. I told him Matt is copied on all the tv e-list correspondences, but that his probability of a reply from Matt was quite low for two reasons:
1. He'd already said he'd rather believe and be wrong. If someone asserts they don't care if they believe falsehoods, what is the point of anyone arguing with them about the their beliefs? I can't imagine a greater waste of time to enter into.
2. The last copy-and-paste note (paragraphs and paragraphs of material) was indicative of a problem we often see with some mail correspondence. We ask people to contact us to discuss what they believe and why they believe it. Sending us reams and reams of what someone else believes for us to rebut is senseless. If they can't explain what they believe and support what they believe, providing their own reasons, then maybe they're not ready to assert it as their belief? If the person who wrote the content Aaron had stripped and sent to us wanted to challenge us about his beliefs, he's welcome to do so. But nobody on our list is interested in arguing with random apologists' web content through Aaron's endless relays. What an easy conversation that would be from Aarson's perspective? He wouldn't have to think or type or explain anything—just copy and paste while we spend time crafting thoughtful responses using our actual reasoning.
To summarize: Nobody on our list is interested in a one-sided waste of our time.
42 comments:
What a huge reply to someone who won't listen. I always try to avoid giving a lecture to theists in discussions. It is pointless to invest time and energy in educating someone who doesn't want to be educated.
On the other hand, like you said, posting it on the forum provides a nice reference for anyone getting to the same point in a discussion as you did, Tracie. That doesn't make it completely useless.I like the existent/non-existent bin analogy Tracie. Very clear and concise. I have never really understood the whole "the bible says embarrassing things so it must be true" argument. It is like assuming that nobody could actually make mistakes or be dishonest therefore if it appears they are doing so they must in actuality be doing something clever and tricky.
Or like that scene in The Princess Bride where they fellow is trying to deduce which cup the poison is in.
"But Paul knows that I know that him putting an embarrassing passage in the bible would make me think that it is actually true, therefore he would be a fool to do so"
... or somethingIs this a common result with theist e-mail conversations? A careful, thoughtful, rational and logical response does not let the theist get to the point they were hoping for, so they decide to abandon logic, reason, and evidence entirely?
I am struck with the image of someone upending a chess board to avoid losing, which really only deceives the person doing it. Any onlookers know exactly what really happened.
I only hope that the arguments slowly sink in over time, and once Aaron is ready to allow the possibility that there is no good reason to believe, they can have some effect. I do not suppose anyone gives as honest a reason as "I believe in god because the adults I respected as a child told me he was real, and as an adult I am still afraid of the consequences of disobeying them or admitting that they might have been wrong."
I did enjoy the parts about biblical authorship. It is a subject I have never had the patience to study myself. Thank you for the post.- Anonymous1/19/2011 1:57 PM
Yes, it is a common result. Generally it is expressed as "Well, that's where my faith comes in." This means "I'm done trying to rationally defend this--at this point I just can't. So, I plug in faith [believe it anyway]...and that makes it work [for me]."
They don't hear "I can't rationally defend this, but believe it anyway," because to them the label faith has been so heavily endowed as "a virtuous" state/action. So, they see this as a _good_ explanation for continuing to believe even after the evidence has stopped supporting their assertions. But it's no explanation at all. It's just a restatement of the fact: You keep on believing even though the evidence stopped supporting your assertions is what faith MEANS, not what faith EXPLAINS.
It's no better than asserting, "Well, that's where my gullibility comes in." Same statement, different words. Thanks for the post Tracie. It may have been lost on Aaron but it was a good bit of information for the atheists who read the blog. I didn't know a lot of the stuff you wrote about biblical authors and I especially enjoyed the existence/nonexistence bin analogy. I hear the "you can't prove God doesn't exist" argument way too often.
ReplyDeleteFaith can be a troublesome word because it has such positive connotations associated with it, even in everyday language. Like "leap of faith", "keep the faith", "have faith in me","in good faith" etc, ect. It makes equivocation of the word a pretty powerful tool. Sometimes I wonder if we should stop arguing for the literal meaning of the word faith and simply use another. Instead of using their own chosen word, simply use credulous or something. Something that makes clear the intent behind the word when we use it without as much cultural baggage. *shrug*
ReplyDelete"...Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Matt 17:20
I have yet to find a theist who can move anything by saying these magic words - I suppose that means they really didn't have as much faith as they claimed.@ChaosSong
My mother gave me that line when I was like 12.
So what did I do? I stood in my livingroom, staring off at some mountains, straining and grunting, trying to move them around.
Obviously, it didn't work.
But here's the thing. I didn't think to myself, "Gee wilikers, I must be doing something wrong." I thought to myself, "This is stupid. It doesn't work. She must not have meant it."Trace a few random thoughts of the email.
A lot of christian's believe god requires a special exemption(pleading) to the non evidence argument because god is god and there is nothing higher plus the large amount of believer's serve as an irrevocable testament to his existence so it must be true.
The reader probably uses a 'subjective truth' because most christian's I've talked with believe there is no objective truth to reality yet they fail to realize their vehicle wouldn't go down the road if that was true. A few have even commonly argued with me further their vehicle goes down the road because of the laws of god. I could just picture bumper sticker's "God Powered" instead of the more scary, "God is my co-pilot."
A lot of christian's are "playing to get into heaven" because they live in fear of going to hell. - Pascal's Wager
Faith is the default trump card christian's like to use when in losing arguments with atheist's.2. "The Bible is true" does not make sense based on my understanding of the word "true."
"True" as I understand it, generally means "correlating to demonstrable reality." So, when you say "the Bible is true," I assume you mean that if we examine all of the best evidence for things claimed in the Bible, it will show a consistent positive correlation to what the Bible claims about reality. Since this is not the case, I don't know how you're using "true".
This is very well written. I don't think I've seen anyone point out the inconsistencies with those type of statements quite so well.- Anonymous1/19/2011 8:49 PM
I know you're just playing Christian's advocate, but here would be my replies:
>A lot of christian's believe god requires a special exemption(pleading) to the non evidence argument because god is god and there is nothing higher
I don't see how this exempts them from demonstrating what they mean by "exist" and "god"? If their god doesn't manifest, how is anyone supposed to know what they're calling god or have a conversation with them about it? It doesn't matter what they think about it. Where are they getting their data? If from a source like "The Bible," the question becomes, how did they determine it the claims in that book correlate to reality if they can't demonstrate a god manifesting in reality? There has to be "something" mapping to "god" or there's literally "nothing" mapping to god. If I can't examine their god, I can't validate their claims (and more importantly--neither can they). They can claim all day that it's higher, lower, wears a white tutu, is bigger than a bread box--it's irrelevant if we have no way to verify the claims.
>plus the large amount of believer's serve as an irrevocable testament to his existence so it must be true.
Argument from Popularity fallacy. Fail. He'd get to research that as well.
>A lot of christian's are "playing to get into heaven" because they live in fear of going to hell. - Pascal's Wager
Fortunately, he sent me content to an apologist's page he agreed with (after I told him Pascal was a fail), who explained god doesn't accept pretenders. So, he agreed Pascal failed after he bothered to look it up, but agreed still based on his assumption of an existent god. Ironically, then, Pascal fails even to a theist in this case, once he looks it up.
>Faith is the default trump card christian's like to use when in losing arguments with atheist's.
Except that it doesn't trump, it fails. It's no different than saying, "Oh yeah? Well, I have gullibility." Faith is just belief. If they say "I have faith even if I can't demonstrate it," they're just saying "I believe it even if I have no reason." The may feel they've trumped someone, but the moment you get the "faith" response extracted from them, you've gotten them to admit they believe for no reason but that they believe. That's not an explanation or justification. It's meaningless. "I believe because I believe." That doesn't actually explain your belief--it's just an assertion that you believe and can't offer any justification. Saying gullibility is a virtue doesn't make their appeal to it any more noble.
>there is no objective truth except for god. All other human experiences other then god are subjective truths.
Isn't their experience of god filtered through their human experience and understanding? So how can they trust their subjective experience in one case, but not others--especially since there are such a massive amount of conflicting claims from sincere believers?
I'd say that nothing is more subjective than asserting attributes about a thing that can't be objectively verified. It's all "you" in that case. Well done! I think deep down it's not even Pascal's wager that keeps them in the flock. They just want to be part of the flock. It's a comfort, even if it means believing (or faking a belief in) something insanely unlikely.
Sometimes I think the best we can do is back them into that corner of admitting that they believe because they just want to. We do them a favor by rebutting the bullshit and getting them to be honest with themselves.
I tried to be a believer, and despite smiling and nodding like the other people in church, in the end I decided I didn't really want to be a fake believer. Fake believers don't get to sleep late on Sunday morning. (Real believers would presumably wake up in a sweat having dreamt about going to hell for missing church)Man I hate arguments of Biblical inerrancy...like some editions of D&D manuals, many of the internal definitions, plots and rules are either outright fabrications or mind-boggling contradictions, and you don't even need to crack open a Bart Ehrman book to figure that one out, though 'Misquoting Jesus' is a fascinating read.
ReplyDeleteTracie, when you told Aaron "that if you couldn't even recognize your own reasoning was absurd", it reminded me of a couple of things I found online recently, particularly the school of thought known as absurdism.
In which it says, " 'The Absurd' refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent meaning in life and the human inability to find any." While I don't agree with everything in the article, I did find some interesting ideas, especially in reference to Jeremiah's post and the term "leap of faith," which apparently evolved from some of Kierkegaard's early works. How someone can recognize "The Absurd" in their actions or beliefs, but then actively ignore it.
There is even a simple chart comparing, atheistic existentialism, theistic existentialism, absurdism, and nihilism, where I might possible send the next person I hear say an atheist believes in nothing.
I think I am getting off topic a little, but I will leave one last thought. After doing research and taking time to respond to the claims of a theist, only to have them show that they considered nothing, are steadfast in their ideas, and still choose to believe because of faith, I am usually left with the feeling that they are closed minded, stubborn, etc. It makes me wonder what a theist thinks when it is the other way around, and they think they have made a great case. Sorry, just rambling.When I called out a theist for plagiarising their "answer" to my post on a discussion thread - I even replied to the points the other person had (badly) made, just to show that there was nothing to avoid discussing for me - she immediately jumped into projection. She said that she doubted that I was coming up with my posts completely on my own. In other words, they have crippled their conversational decency and honesty to the point that they no longer even expect such discourse from anyone else.
As I was talking to several people on that thread, they came up with all sorts of statements to confront me. One was "just shut up" and another was "you also posted at HuffPo a few times, therefore I can make fun of your opinion".
If that's the level of discourse "the other side" is comfortable with, I really don't know how to deal with these people. I wish we could just send them all back to elementary school to learn some basic conversation, research and debating skills and ethics.
I'd find it a simple thing to shrug it off if my brain didn't keep telling me that one of these people offsets my vote in the next election. Ugh.On deeper consideration, I think this kind of correspondence is not a waste of time at all. Even if it wasn't posted on the blog, despite Aaron refusing to accept rational discourse or be convinced of anything new by the end of it, this most definitely helped spread the idea that there are atheists out there who have reached their lack of belief through careful examination. Aaron now has an experience with a skeptical atheist, which I expect he will share with other theists, making the propaganda of "atheists just want to ignore morality" etc. a little weaker.
Cutting him off at the cut and paste stage was only prudent though. There are only so many hours in the day. Time to just link him to the iron chariots wiki.When arguing with the seriously deluded the topic of logical fallacies, comes up repeatedly. The rogues over at the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe have posted and defined their list of a top 20. A review might make some of them easier to recognize.
I think we may be a little overly optimistic about the effectiveness of a reasoned argument
when used to change what is largely an emotional point of view. Reason is only powerful when used on reasonable people.What i hate about theist arguments, are those that any religion can use to "prove", any gods, just by changing the god name, like:
"My god X, created the world, and the evidence its my holy book", or, "My god heal sick people, and this its evidence".
Even if you point out, that this argument can be made to any gods, they just says: "no,no,no, my god its true, the others are false".
At least Aaron, made clear that he dont have any evidence for it, maybe this is the begining of critical thinking, admiting you dont have any higher grounds for your claims...or not.@John K
While I agree that these discussions are helpful I think that your assessment is a little off. I have never had an instance where I argued a theist down, and then had them acknowledge points or express consideration (except for weak theists, but those rarely make the effort to argue). I find it very unlikely that he would return to his safe zone and then admit "defeat".
In my experience, the best we can hope for in these circumstances is that the seed of doubt will be placed. Theists have a remarkable ability to rationalize any inconsistency away; even if the method of rationalization flies in the face of facts and reason.God damn, Tracie Harris, it is inspiring to watch you do your thing! I said it before, and your post corroborates that contention: "You have an ability to win an argument, and you do so with much intellectual and academic prowess." I can relate to the frustration you experience in debating certain Theists. While my arguments, as compared to your's, may appear to be conducted at the 6th grade level, it, too, bothers me when, in making argument with certain theists, my most salient points often get dismissed as if they had never been advanced. I'm beginning to believe that theists have a special selectivity valve in their inner ears -- comforting auditory stimuli get routed from the ear directly to the brain, and disconcerting auditory messages get valved directly out the opposing ear. Of course, I have no evidence for the actual existence of this valve within the ears of Theists. It just brings me comfort to believe that it exists, and so I will simply continue to believe so!!!
I was thinking more along the lines of breaking down the common "angry, just want to ignore the moral rules" stereotype. I have no illusion that he will admit defeat any time soon.
He jumped in, got way more logical arguments than he was prepared to deal with, and even had to fall back to "I would rather believe and be wrong". That in itself is a certain admission of "defeat". I can't help but think that at some level he must have thought, wow, these people have really thought a lot about this stuff.
It is mostly conjecture, but I am glad to have representatives like tracieh chipping away at what the theists like to say atheist positions are with sound arguments. It may not have the gratifying result of instant de-conversion, but doing things like this do make progress.@Peter: It's "Harris'" not "Harris's" ... don't add an extra 's' when indicating the possessive of a proper noun that ends with 's', especially when attempting to deride someone else as a "fucking mental midget". Learning proper grammar will certainly help you on your way to greater reading comprehension, and I wish you all the best in that endeavor.
Which brings me to your question. It's true that some of us became a little derailed in the overall thread, but my first posting that set off the harmless fun was definitely pertinent ... something you would have picked up had you scrolled up slightly higher.This is exactly why I have begun to put less and less effort into my dialogues. You go and you push and you give and you take and then you get to that point where you see the sentence begin with "Well, I just believe" and you know you're done.
At that point you either bow out or stick around for a futile exchange that often degrades into ad hominems.- Anonymous4/22/2011 12:33 PM
I used to argue incessantly with believers, especially those using the word TRUTH in error. I have over the years come to the point where single sentences are all I care to generate anymore. Like, "That is a lie", or "Absolutely no evidence - you fail". I don't know if this is any help. But that being said, I stand in admiration of the effort that went into this blog and trying to deal with somebody who may be ill equipped to understand reason itself.
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Oh, ye be wanting a hint, do ye?
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Now, how many doubloons am I offered for this winsome wench? Ye did ask for the redhead, did ye not?
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Allison F., Mandy R., Alana F., Suzanne B., & Laura G., I've never been to Boston in the fall. How 'bout you?
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There are dozens of NAS (Network-Attached Storage) enclosures on the market that you can pack with hard drives for a tidy storage boost on your home network. All of them promise to keep your data accessible, safely redundant, and available to multiple computers on your wired or wireless network. Some are expensive, others not so much, but when we asked you which NAS enclosures you thought were the best for the job, a few nominees rose to the top. Here's a look at the five best, based on those nominations.
Earlier in the week we asked you which NAS enclosures you thought were the best. We heard your nominations loud and clear, and now we're back to take a look at the top five.
The poll is closed and the votes are counted! To see which of the top five took the grand prize, head over to our hive five followup post to see and discuss the winner!
Synology DS212j ($199)
The Synology DS212j is a two drive bay model aimed squarely at home users and small groups looking to safely store large amounts of data without spending too much money on a NAS solution for their home or home office. The DS212j, in addition to working primarily as a NAS, also can function as a low-power 24/7 downloading system, automating all of your regular download duties without you having to task a computer on your network with the job, and doesn't require you dedicate a disk to its own OS—it has internal memory for that. It's also DLNA certified, which makes for easy media streaming to connected devices on your home network like smart TVs and Blu-Ray players. The DS212J supports a maximum of 8TB (2x 4TB), and sports a pair of USB 2.0 ports and 1 Gigabit Ethernet port on the back. The device comes with backup software for effortless Windows backups, is Time Machine compatible, and can be configured for remote access to your files on the go so you never roam without them. The Synology app for iOS and Android also lets you grab your files on your smartphone or tablet.
Synology DS1512+ ($799)
If your data storage and availability needs are more than Synology's purely consumer and home office products can support—or if you just have the money to spend—the DS1512 is a five bay model that supports a maximum of 20TB (5x 4TB) and sports a pair of Gigabit ethernet ports on the back, two USB 3.0 ports and four USB 2.0 ports for external connectivity, and an eSATA port. If you need to extend the device's storage capabilities, it can easily be daisy chained via iSCSI or eSATA to other models just like it using a Synology DX expansion unit. As it stands though, the SD1512+ is designed for small businesses and professionals who need the space, availability, and redundancy of a large drive array without spending too much. The larger model is a little less energy efficient, but Synology touts its energy efficiency, and the device can support whatever OS you choose to throw on it thanks to its internal (and expandable) memory.
Netgear ReadyNAS Pro 2 ($450)
Netgear's ReadyNAS line of appliances offer some high-end features at lower prices than some of the competition. For example, the ReadyNAS Pro 2 is a two-drive bay model that supports a maximum of 12TB of storage including externally connected hard drives via its six SATA II channels and three USB 2.0 ports. It features dual Gigabit Ethernet on the rear, and embedded memory for its own operating system, so you don't have to task a partition or drive with its OS. In addition to operating as a file server, the ReadyNAS Pro 2 functions as a print server if you attach a USB printer to it, and is streaming compatible with Windows Media Center, PlayStation 3, XBox 360, and more. The ReadyNAS Pro 2 isn't a desktop model, so don't expect bonus backup software or anything, but it does function with Time Machine (after some configuration) and if your Windows backup client can support network drives, it'll support this.
Synology DS412+ ($669)
Synology's DS412+ is still a pro-sumer NAS model, targeted at small businesses more than individuals, but consumers and enthusiasts can enjoy its features on their home networks just as well as small groups or offices can. The DS412+ is a four drive bay model that supports up to 16TB (4x 4TB) and features dual Gigabit Ethernet ports, two USB 3.0 ports, one USB 2.0 port, and one eSATA port on the rear of the device. Like everyone else in the roundup, it's a diskless system, meaning it has on-board memory for its operating system so your installed drives are all for your own use. Like the other pro models, the 412+ can be daisy chained via eSATA or iSCSI to additional units for added storage, and can be configured for remote access or even to host external web sites or business applications that need to be accessible from multiple locations. Again, you get all of the same benefits of the consumer models with this one, all in a space and power-saving package.
Build It Yourself
A good number of you pointed out that you'd rather build your own NAS. Some of your said you would use a computer you have lying around and stuff it full of new, multi-terabyte drives, and others noted that you could just as easily build a computer to serve as a NAS for the price you'd pay to buy some of the better and more high-end NAS enclosures available, and then you could do whatever you wanted with it, without being limited by the enclosure itself. As usual, the choice is a matter of convenience, easy setup, and support versus having choice, expandability, and having everything exactly the way you like. If you choose to assemble your own DIY NAS, we have a few useful guides that can help. Photo by Justin Ruckman.
Now that you've seen the top five, it's time to vote for the all-out winner.
The honorable mention this week goes out to the Drobo, specifically the 2nd generation four-bay Drobo model, which many of you praised for its simple setup. Unfortunately though the Drobo isn't really a true NAS because it needs to be connected to a computer via Firewire or USB, which makes it a DAS (direct-attached storage), so it's not right for this roundup. Had you nominated the Drobo 5N, it would have qualified for the roundup.
Beyond these, we were tempted to group the nominees into models so we didn't have so many Synology models in the roundup, but we did want to find the best NAS enclosures, not who makes the best NAS. Companies like QNAP and D-Link deserve mentioning, even if their models didn't meet with the same popularity. Still, we're betting you have some alternatives to suggest, so let's hear them below.
Have something to say about one of the contenders? Want to make the case for your personal favorite, even if it wasn't included in the list? Remember, the top five are based on your most popular nominations from the call for contenders thread from earlier in the week. Make your case for your favorite—or alternative—in the discussions below.
The Hive Five is based on reader nominations. As with most Hive Five posts, if your favorite was left out, it's not because we hate it—it's because it didn't get the nominations required in the call for contenders post to make the top five. We understand it's a bit of a popularity contest, but if you have a favorite, we want to hear about it. Have a suggestion for the Hive Five? Send us an email at [email protected]!
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BREWER, Paul (1946 - )
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