text:
The Child Jesus prepares his Precursor |
Friday, June 24, 2011
The Nativity of St. John the Baptist and the limbo of the children
42 comments:
How can someone know and love God without actual grace or habitual grace?
Matt - June 24, 2011 at 5:50 AM
What happens to adults who die in original sin only?
Patrick - June 24, 2011 at 7:06 AM
Why can't the Church teach on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants from the truths that have an intrinsic connection (or a logical connection) with revealed truth?
- June 24, 2011 at 8:11 AM
This is a hard saying for those of us who have miscarried or stillborn babies, who had every intention of having them baptized soon after birth. I certainly hope that God imparts abundant grace in his merciful love to these little ones, whose original sin seems to bar them from supernatural happiness.
Faustina - June 24, 2011 at 1:23 PM
What about the Catechism (CCC 1261) which states:
"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
Is that just a statement of mystery outside the norms of the economy of salvation, and therefore is not in conflict with your analysis? - June 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM
Dear Father,
Thank you! You got guts to actually say what the Church teaches! Now, what of those grandparents, aunts, uncles and all the Italians who baptize babies surreptitiously, either prior to the public baptism in church, (just in case), or in the sad case of parents who have left the Church and don't intend to have the child baptized at all? Is this a mortal sin? (And, uh, should I confess it??)
And you may have addressed this one before, the Big Question: How do we get Original Sin? If my soul was created by God at the moment of my conception, so the soul is clean as it comes from the Hand of God, but Original Sin is not simply a "physical" "malady" (is it?) Now I suspect the answer lies in the fact that we're not "a body and a soul" but a mysterious composite.
Now, I'm being lazy, but I am also being cagy, because you, being the theologian, but also an excellent technical writer, target your response to us sophomores, when you want to, of course! And I get a lot out of your analysis and synthesis of the issues. God bless you, Father. - June 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM
The misconception of a children's limbo in Hell really underlines a kind theology that attempts to take into account what happens, for instance, to a child who is innocently put to death (i.e by abortion). This non baptized infant (who retains original sin) would, if we are to follow this view, go to this mythical place (limbo) in hell where they would be happy. In short, this is a pharisaic approach in respect to God's mercy. Secondly, in simplistic terms, it is not possible to be in Hell and yet be "happy". In conclusion, would God send aborted children to Hell ? Certainly not.
There are out there non-pharisaic theologians who actually develop a theology based on Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium that accounts for these souls and God's infinite mercy.
Richard. - June 24, 2011 at 11:42 PM
I think that, as a mother, who has lost children through miscarriage at age one or two month in utero, I would not like to think they are in a part of Hell as mentioned above. I believe God's love reaches infinitely far beyond our reasoning and seriously do you think Jesus would ever say to me "These little innocent ones are in a part of Hell." I don't have to sacrifice my children to "a part of Hell" in order to uphold the doctrine of original sin.
- June 25, 2011 at 7:51 AM
Sorry but my little ones who died in utero very early on and were not able to be baptized are not in a "part of Hell" Every true mother knows this and knows just as we can not understand how there can be three Persons in one God we can not know or understand how the infinite love of God will reconcile the doctrine of original sin and the future of these innocents. Seriously, God can do all things and nowhere does Jesus say these innocent little ones will live for all eternity "in a part of Hell." A Mother
- June 25, 2011 at 8:05 AM
- Dionysius said...
I am surprised you do not mention the Catechism which states that we may have hope of salvation for these children.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
This provides a much more optimistic view of things, which seems to me more in keeping with Gods infinite love than the theory of limbo. The present Pope seems to support this idea, which of course he should, seeing it is in the catechism. - June 25, 2011 at 9:10 AM
Unfortunately I will not be able to comment regularly comment over the next few days due to lack of computer access. I will respond as soon as possible.
- June 25, 2011 at 11:58 AM
- dominic1962 said...
Does anyone actually have an *argument* against Limbo other than emotionalisms and scoffing? What else is there besides Limbo as understood by St. Thomas and the other scholastics in our tradition that has any real support besides the Augustinian view? The new theology view that practically (and probably) everyone gets saved eviscerates not only the doctrine of Original Sin but any number of the Church's doctrines with their fuzzy imprecision and erroneous idea of "mercy".
- June 25, 2011 at 12:07 PM
@dominic, the church's trust and hope in God's mercy is not mere emotionalism and scoffing.In the name of mercy, God can do great things no mind could imagine.Who could have thought that he could live his glory and come to earth to die a disgraceful death for his ungrateful creatures. So no, hoping in God's mercy is not mere emotionalism.
Andrew - June 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM
- Nick said...
To me, the chief difficulties to balance are these two points:
1) The Church has spoken clearly on the case of dying in "original sin alone" as being to hell but without pains of fire. The Church has spoken and acted clearly in regards to baptizing Infants in the first place, which would be totally mocked if the Infant already had a free pass to heaven.
2) Jesus died for all men. Period. How does an Infant get the chance to experience Christ's Merits? Or what of faithful Catholic parents who eagerly want to baptize their infant but the infant is miscarried? It would seem that the Christ-empowering gifts given to Christians was powerless to help a parent rescue their child. To not ever have given that child any chance could be framed as a form of Predestination to Hell, a Protestant heresy, which is repudiated by the Church.
True, the birth of St John and St Jeremiah were 'extraordinary', but the tears of Saintly parents for a child they want to baptize is undoubtedly 'extraordinary' in it's Christian heroism.
Concerning the notion that Limbo is a place of natural happiness, the reasoning is sound, and the main objection seems to be that this is located within the realm of "hell", which people cannot see as anything other than fiery.
I think it would be a very interesting theological study if a Saint (while alive) was given an extraordinary vision of seeing their miscarried child in Heaven, and this vision was approved by the Church. - June 27, 2011 at 12:27 PM
I have nothing to add either to the article nor to any of the comments. Just want to say thank you to all for the discussion!
- June 27, 2011 at 10:23 PM
- dominic1962 said...
Well, where did this come from? I didn't say that the CCC's allowance of hope is mere emotionalisms and scoffing, but rather some of these comments seem to be such.
That said, if you actually look at the constant actual teaching of the Church, the Doctors, the Saints, etc. you will find very slim pickings for anything other than an affirmation of something like limbo. Thus, even the more recent CCC's statement seems rather odd in that if you look to what has always been taught, it has never been framed in such a way that there is a good chance or hope that those who are not baptized will be saved. The thrust has been, get those kids baptized because those who die in original sin will not be saved. Period.
We should also note that even in the case of abortion, it has been considered that much more abhorrent because such an act basically kills the child twice-once on the temporal sense but also because they are prevented from reaching heaven. (cf. Effraenatam of Sixtus V)
We cannot grasp the totality of God's will, but to use that as a justification for a theological position is intellectually slipshod. Its like throwing your hands up and saying, "It's a mystery!" Well, yes, but that only means we can never plumb its depths, not that we can make it whatever we feel like. - June 28, 2011 at 8:33 AM
- Dionysius said...
In 2007, the International Theological Commission, published a 41 page document on the THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED, which can be found on the Vatican website here:
This official Vatican pretty well demolishes the concept of limbo and its publication was authorized by PopeBbenedict in January 2007.
I am very surprised that this blog does not mention this extremely important document. Frankly, such a blatant omission does not help the credibility of this otherwise great blog. - June 28, 2011 at 6:51 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
Your comment is ridiculous.
If you had read the document from the ITC (which DOES NOT share in the "official Vatican" magisterium), you would know that the document does not "demolish the concept of limbo".
Rather, the ITC (which is only a consultative body to the CDF and not an official arm of the teaching authority of the Church) explicitly states that the faithful are still free to believe in limbo.
The ITC only pointed out (as I have in the post) that the idea of limbo has never been an officially declared dogma of the Church -- therefore, theologians may speculate about other possibilities.
Your blatant misunderstanding of who the ITC are and what the authority of their document is (together with your lie about the content of the document) does not help your credibility.
Come back when you are ready to discuss with integrity and honesty. Good day! - June 29, 2011 at 8:46 AM
- dominic1962 said...
That document has no official authority whatsoever. It is on the same level as that commission that Paul VI set up that said birth control was permissible.
- June 29, 2011 at 8:46 AM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
TO ALL: This weekend I will try to get caught up on comments from the week.
Thank you for your patience! - June 29, 2011 at 8:46 AM
- Alessandro said...
This is a long matter to analyse, but I'll try to harmonize both positions: the official statements of Lyons pinpointed by Reginaldus on one side, and the "hope" of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Recently, Pope Benedict XVI has stated that Limbo isn't to be held as a dogma, but what does that mean? Does that rule out the inspiration of the Council of Lyons? Not at all, and I'll show you why.
The Church admits that Original Sin is an impediment to the bliss of heaven. This is true. We also know from the dogmas of the Catholic Church that there are three forms of baptism: by water, by blood and of desire. The first form of baptism is the ordinary sacramental form: everybody must attain to that safe form. The second form is the baptism of martyrdom: a Biblical example are the Holy Innocents, whose massacre by Herod the Great was so important in their salvation that even the Church commemorates them as saints in her calendar. The third and final form is the one resulting from the desire of a person to receive baptism: that was very important in the earliest centuries of Christianity, when the Church delayed the administration of baptism until the adult candidates were ready – not because the Church was contrary to infant baptism, but because most converts were adults in the first ecclesiastical generations, and some of them may even be impostors and persecutors of the Church, which was indeed a grave problem at the time.
What we know from infant baptism is, nevertheless, that the faith of the child is unnecessary: it's the parents who want the child to be baptised. So, it may well be that baptism of desire can also apply to the stillborn and to infants who are awaiting baptism, in particular when the parents have already decided and desired their infant must be baptised as soon as possible. This is a first case when children may be brought to heaven under certain circumstances.
A second case is that of aborted children: their blood makes them martyrs, so that they may receive a baptism of blood. As for the non-Christian infants who die in pagan families, I think no form of the previously mentioned baptisms may apply. Nevertheless, the statement by Benedict XVI points to the idea that there's some limit in the traditional doctrine of limbo.
Limbo is ordinarily believed to be eternal, but the fact that children can get to heaven when they die without baptism doesn't impede them to meet Christ and recognize him on Judgment Day. So limbo may even be temporary for those who unvoluntarily died without the chance to make a choice. Non-baptized children in limbo "would know and love God with a natural knowledge and a natural love" and " be entirely ignorant of the mysteries of salvation", in the words of Reginaldus. But on Judgment Day we will all meet Christ in person: these children, naturally loving God, once enlightened by the mysteries of salvation, may plausibly be able to receive a baptism of fire and spirit. - June 30, 2011 at 4:41 AM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
While I do not agree with the arguments you put forward, I can see that you are at least attempting to deal with the question within the context of the Tradition (rather than from emotions).
In previous articles, I have argued against an idea of "baptism of desire" as well as "baptism of blood" for infants who die ... but I don't want to go into all that again here.
Simply recall just how great a miracle you are proposing ... these millions/billions of children would all be like John the Baptist (or, as you would have it for aborted children, like the Holy Innocents) ... does that really make sense? does it really seem likely?
The one point I will argue, however, is the idea that the children in limbo (if there is a limbo) could go to heaven at the end of time ... this is most certainly not an option.
The Catholic Church teaches infallibly that the particular judgment occurs immediately upon death and is permanent. There can be no change ... if limbo is part of hell (and it must be), then the children who (I believe) are there cannot ever be saved.
There will not and cannot be any final reconciliation of those who died in mortal sin, or even only in original sin ... but they are in hell (or limbo) forever. [this is a de fide dogmatic teaching of the Church]
-- the debate is over whether or not these children die in original sin, or whether they may receive the exceptional and wholly extraordinary grace given to John the Baptist. (I think not, others will argue yes)
In any case, thank you for the comment. There is certainly much room to debate on various aspects of this teaching. Peace! - June 30, 2011 at 2:43 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
A person can know and love God naturally, even without habitual grace.
This is what I propose is the case for the souls in limbo.
To know and love God supernaturally, grace is needed. - June 30, 2011 at 2:45 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
It is not possible for adults to die in original sin only.
At the very least, they commit a sin of omission by failing to turn to God with their whole heart, mind, and strength. This is a mortal sin in them, and for it they are condemned to Hell.
Hence, there cannot be any who have reached the age of reason who have only original sin (or even only venial sin) on their souls ...
The theologians (including St. Thomas) hold that the first rational act will either be filled with grace and merit the forgiveness of original sin, or it will be a mortal sin (usually of omission). - June 30, 2011 at 2:48 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
To All, regarding the Catechism,
The Church is quite clear in CCC 1261 ... she is unable to pronounce in favor of the eternal salvation of these children ... "the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God" ... as opposed to children who die after baptism, whom the Church teaches go directly to heaven.
The Catechism is not against limbo ... but only avoids mentioning it since the whole debate is a matter for theologians to discuss and is not yet clear enough for the Church to make an official pronouncement.
In truth, whether the children go to heaven or to limbo does not have a great impact on our faith -- this is why I leave the options open in my article (and this is also why I am desturbed when people attack me for saying that limbo is a possibility) ...
What we simply must hold to, however, is the reality of original sin which can only be forgiven by the grace of Christ through the sacrament of baptism which is "simply and absolutely necessary", either by water, by desire, or by blood.
Any theology which makes it so that all people (as infants in the womb) are somehow "magically" baptized by some implicit desire would certainly undermine both human freedom and the dogma of original sin and Christ's saving redemption. - June 30, 2011 at 2:53 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
The question of how we contract original sin is very complicated ... what we know for certain is this: It is contracted through generation (and not through imitation) ... i.e. we receive it by the same mode we receive our nature, through procreation.
St. Thomas elaborates (and improves) the earlier opinions of St Augustine and others -- he states that original sin is contracted through Adam because all people were present "in his loins" ... meaning, the active generative power of procreation (i.e. the male reproductive system) contained all humanity insofar as all humanity would spring from Adam's loins.
This is why Jesus did not contract original sin ... he was conceived not by the power of men, but by the Holy Spirit.
Since, our Savior received his human nature from the Holy Spirit (taking the matter from Mary), Jesus did not receive original sin from Adam.
Peace to you! - June 30, 2011 at 2:57 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
While your comment helps me to grow in humility, it offends against your charity ... since you have no right to call me a "pharisaic theologian" and imply that my theology is not based on Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.
Most of all, I am quite offended that you doubt my trust in Divine Mercy.
In any case ... I am not a theologian, I am just a parish priest who is trying to spread the Gospel in the digital age.
Peace to you. - June 30, 2011 at 2:59 PM
"we do know that the graces given to St. John the Baptist and Jeremiah are extraordinary and extremely special (and that they were given specifically for the edification of God's people in crucial moments of salvation history)."
If I'm not mistaken, sacraments are signs "instituted by Christ to convey grace." As such, they are wholly subservient to the act of God, even if God chooses to make them the normative means of salvation. Clearly, God can and does act outside of the normative process of salvation- the three examples above attest to this.
What I'm questioning is whether the three cases above can be accurately compared to the case of infants. The three above were freed from original sin in an extrasacramental way to provide a certain "service" or function in salvation history- as you say. For example, by freeing Mary from original sin, God allowed her to live a blessed life that serves as an example for us. There is a certain element of public ministry involved- all three of these individuals lived as rational adults in the world, interacting with the world engaged in the normal process of salvation. Their graces are extraordinary, but they are so in comparison to the ordinary world of sin and repentance.
Infants seem a little different. They never have the capacity to use their reason or participate in the same way in the world and the process of salvation. For many, they never leave the womb. For others, they never have the chance to operate as they are meant to do. As such, are they really comparable to the three examples? Mary, John, and Jeremiah are unique in that they lived a life preserved from sin, whereas infants never really get off the ground. While we can have no certain knowledge in this matter, is it not reasonable to think that giving extrasacramental grace to such infants is not particularly extraordinary, given that they don't lead an ordinary life anyway? - July 3, 2011 at 8:16 AM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
The idea of any man being saved as an infant and without the sacraments is entirely extra-ordinary ... Christ himself has said that baptism is necessary for salvation. ... The Catechism of Trent summarizes the general teaching of the Church Fathers and Doctors: "Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism ..."
What bothers me most is that people seem to think that infants are some-how owed heaven. It is almost as though people think that children are conceived in grace, or at least that God is bound by some law to bring them into grace.
But this is not the case. Men are conceived in sin. Infants are not ordered toward God, but are ordered against God (both on the natural level and the supernatural level).
If nothing happens -- i.e. if no extraordinary graces are given -- the infants cannot possibly be saved. - July 3, 2011 at 5:04 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
This is my main point:
Infants don't have to "do anything" to be condemned to hell (i.e. Limbo) ... the Church has taught that those who die in original sin alone go immediately to hell, but are punished diversely (i.e. the infants "suffer" limbo, while those adults who die in mortal sin suffer hell proper) ... if infants do nothing (i.e. commit no actual sin), and God does not fill them with grace either through sacramental baptism or through some other entirely exceptional means (comparable to that in the case of John the Baptist), these infants cannot possibly be saved. - July 3, 2011 at 5:11 PM
"What bothers me most is that people seem to think that infants are some-how owed heaven. It is almost as though people think that children are conceived in grace, or at least that God is bound by some law to bring them into grace."
I certainly accept that people are not owed heaven per se. Salvation is a gift, not a right. However, observing the fact that God created mankind and chose to offer salvation to men, is it not reasonable to think this would apply evenly across the board? Infants do not deserve salvation -as humans-, but should they be refused salvation -as infants-?
For example, substitute race. By analogy, suppose it was claimed that God offers salvation to Europeans, but only natural happiness in limbo to Asians. This person could argue that since no one is owed salvation anyway, it is entirely at God's discretion to distribute his gifts as he see fits. If He doesn't want to give that gift to Asians, such is His prerogative, by this line of logic.
Of course, this is abhorrent to Catholic doctrine. It is easy to see that a just God would not predicate his gifts on something so arbitrary and out of human control.
It seems much the same way when you substitute age. Just as a person has no control over their race, a person has no control over their age. An infant does not choose to be an infant, and does not choose to be unable to be normally baptized. Why would a just God predicate salvation on such an arbitrary and uncontrollable factor as that?
This does not claim that infants deserve salvation. No one deserves salvation, whether European or Asian, infant or aged. The fact of the matter is, however, that God has freely chosen to make salvation available to mankind. Is it reasonable to chop this audience up into little bits, denying salvation to Asians, to infants, to blind people, or to skinny people? - July 4, 2011 at 2:36 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
The discussion is beginning to enter into the realm of predestination and reprobation (which, by the way, is taught by the Church) ... an area which I don't think is worth getting into here.
Rather than getting into all that ... I think it more helpful to return to the central question: Is the forgiveness of original sin for an infant without baptism an extraordinary and exceptional grace or not? According to the teaching of the Church and by analogy to the case of St. John the Baptist, this seems to be an exceptional grace entirely outside the ordinary means of salvation.
Given that fact, how can we have grounds not merely to speculate, but even to pronounce with boldness that all these infants are saved?
I do not say that I am certain they are in limbo (though I cannot see any way around this conclusion myself), but I do think that people who reject limbo have failed to understand the implications of such a position. - July 4, 2011 at 3:26 PM
Rather than getting into all that ... I think it more helpful to return to the central question: Is the forgiveness of original sin for an infant without baptism an extraordinary and exceptional grace or not? According to the teaching of the Church and by analogy to the case of St. John the Baptist, this seems to be an exceptional grace entirely outside the ordinary means of salvation."
It seems to me like we are hung up on two different uses of the word "extraordinary." You seem to be using it in the sense of "highly unusual/unlikely."
In contrast, I am using it in the sense of "non-normative/non-procedural." For example, the Tridentine rite is "extraordinary" in the sense that it is non-normative. The OF is the regular normal mass for the Latin church, but at the same time there's nothing that "unusual" about the use of the extraordinary form.
It is undeniable that baptism by water is the normative means of imparting sanctifying grace. Any action of God outside of this normative structure is definitely extraordinary and non-normative. We both agree on this point, as I see it. God can clearly act either ordinarily or extraordinarily as He chooses. What I do not see is the connection between "extraordinary" and "unlikely." Saying that the TLM is "extraordinary" does not mean that it is unlikely to occur, and similarly I do not see why saying that God acts in an extra-ordinary manner with infants means that He is less likely to do it.
Thank you for your replies! This is quite interesting theologically. - July 4, 2011 at 4:56 PM
If (as I understand) the human soul is always (even at conception) mature and that at the age of reason (assuming one lives that long) the person makes a choice for or against God and given that at the moment of death our intention toward or away from God is set for eternity, is it not probable or at least plausible that at the moment of death for those who are unbaptized and prior to the age of reason (including the stillborn and miscarried) they make the necessary choice?
As potential comparison, did not Christ Jesus descend to Hell (at that point merely the abode of the physically dead) to offer the possibility of heaven to those whose earthly lives ended prior to His sacrifice?
If this is so, I see this as a balance of Justice and Mercy.
If this idea is contrary to church teaching, please advise.
Samantha - July 6, 2011 at 12:43 AM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
You are correct, "extraordinary" and "exceptional" do not mean the same as "rare" ...
Still, because the grace is exceptional and extraordinary (and because the only revelation of such grace being given is in the cases of John the Baptist and Jeremiah), it would be a bit rash to start speculating that the grace is given to millions (billions?) of others.
In any case, I just hope that people realize what they must be claiming when they deny limbo ... - July 6, 2011 at 11:29 AM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
Samantha, the important thing to remember is that there is no chance for change (either for or against heaven) after death.
The souls in the limbo of the Fathers did not have to "decide" for or against Christ when he descended -- they had already chosen Jesus before their death (knowingly or not).
I cannot see how we can hold that these infants have the opportunity to make a choice (certainly not after death).
Peace! + - July 6, 2011 at 11:33 AM
Just a thought Father: Canon Law 1183.2 states: 'The local ordinary can permit children whom the parents intended to baptize but who died before baptism to be given ecclesiastical funerals.'
Since Requiems are not said for those in Hell, does this not presume that somehow these children have been cleansed of original sin? That the intention of the parents have somehow made up for a baptism of desire maybe?
While canon law certainly treats it as an exception, the fact that it is allowed could suggest something.
Incidentally Father, we would love for you to be our parish priest! - July 10, 2011 at 8:11 AM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
You are correct, funeral Masses may be offered for children who die without baptism ... however, it is good to note that the prayers are different from those of baptized children.
If the child has been baptized, the prayers presume the child is in heaven.
If they child has not been baptized, the prayers simply offer the child to God's mercy -- they do not so much pray for the child (as would be the case for a baptized adult), but simply speak of the mystery of God's mercy.
Hence, even the 'funeral' ritual for a non-baptized child recognizes the extreme difficulty in speculating on the child's entrance into heaven.
In any case, I do not mean to say that I am absolutely certain that these children are in limbo ... what I DO MEAN TO SAY though is that people go too far when they claim that God "just has" to save these children or that "we cannot possibly imagine" that these little one's are in limbo (hell).
Such an attitude (while understandable from an emotional point of view) is radically contrary to the Tradition of the Church.
Thank you for the comment and for bringing up the additional point! Also, thank you for your kind words; please pray for all priests that we may follow after His Heart.
Peace to you! + - July 10, 2011 at 12:30 PM
I'm coming to this discussion late but I read through all of the responses and I have a question that has not been asked yet.
We cannot DO anything to sanctify ourselves or DO anything to merit or deserve the removal of original sin. Therefore isn't it correct to say that baptism is a vow to accept God and enter into his santifying grace, and that grace is then what grants us our salvation and absolution? In other words, OUR vow and OUR action is still not what saves us - but only God's grace?
It seems to me that God can/would extra-sacramentally grant that same grace to anyone who has not had the ability to make the choice for or against baptism since our choice is not what saves us.
From the standpoint of God's justice and mercy, it seems impossible to me that anyone who is too young/ignorant to make a rational choice to accept God and receive baptism would have their heavenly salvation denied for the lack of a choice they were as yet unable to make for themselves anyway, more especially if it's not our choice that saves us to begin with. And if that is true, how much more impossible it seems to me would salvation be dependent on whether any other person acts to baptise them. (This is not to say that I don't believe in infant baptism since I think we can act in a positive way for others.)
I cannot believe that God sends anyone to hell (even limbo) that has not had a chance to rationally accept or reject Him. Even we humans in our extreme lack of charity and mercy and justice recognize that as being something we would not do. How much more so would God act in love. How He accomplishes this may forever remain a mystery to us but perhaps it is similar to what Samantha pointed out that Jesus did while He preached to the unbaptized dead.
momor - July 12, 2011 at 3:52 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
Your comments imply that God would be unjust if he did not grant salvation to a child who was conceived in original sin and not baptized.
You seem to think that the children, by virtue simply of being created, have a right to heaven.
We have to stand back from the emotions and take a serious look at the theology and the teaching of Christ on the absolute necessity of baptism.
In any case: The position in favor of limbo (which you think is simply impossible and contrary to any sense of justice) is the position of the vast majority of the Fathers, Doctors, saints, and theologians.
We have to learn to be a bit more docile to both Tradition and reason -- and to resist the impulse of our passions and sentiments.
Finally, I do not mean to claim that I am certain the children are in limbo -- my point is only to say that, if they are saved, the exceptional grace given to John the Baptist turns out to be not that exceptional at all ...
(please do not take this response too harshly, I simply want to write clearly and concisely ... and this whole debate is getting a bit old for me)
Peace to you in Christ our Savior! + - July 12, 2011 at 7:06 PM
I don't see what the age of reason has to do with it. The kids are stuck with original sin whether they would choose it or not. Their parents should have had them baptized, I guess.
The question nagging at me is whether we might speculate that limbo could be anything like purgatory, in other words, that prayers offered in atonement could have some impact? If it really is a part of hell then the answer seems clear (Lazarus/rich man), but thought I'd pose the question anyway and try to learn something... - August 9, 2011 at 7:40 PM
- Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
Very briefly: The reason it is important whether the child has attained to the use of reason is that, if the child has, then there is the possibility of actual sin (and also the possibility of a baptism by desire). Hence, the child who has reached reason will not go to limbo -- he will either go to heaven or to hell (since limbo is for those who die in original sin alone).
Regarding whether limbo could be like purgatory ... recall that it is for those who die in original sin alone. It has been declaired that those who die in original sin alone go directly to hell (though they do not necessarily suffer sensible punishments). Therefore, limbo must be part of hell (it is the "fringe" of hell ... limbo means "fringe").
Hence, it is clear that prayers cannot help those who are in limbo and that they will be there for eternity.
I hope that this clarifies things a little bit!
Remember, I do not mean to say that we have to believe in limbo ... I only mean to say that "if" limbo exists, this is what it would have to be ... and that no child who dies with original sin can possibly be saved.
Peace to you. + - August 9, 2011 at 8:27 PM
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Section 132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831. See Official Declaration 1.
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing plural marriage are set forth.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many awives and bconcubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, aprepare thy heart to receive and bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye bdamned; for no one can creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a ablessing at my hands shall abide the blaw which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the anew and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my bglory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the aconditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, boaths, cvows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and dsealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is eanointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ikeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of aorder, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I aaccept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not aappointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father aordained unto you, before the world was?
12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall acome unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by athrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall bnot remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
15 Therefore, if a aman marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the bnew and everlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb's gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
24 This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The ablasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall bnot be cforgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit dmurder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be edamned, saith the Lord.
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the alaw of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
29 aAbraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
30 aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose bloins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of aAbraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32 Go ye, therefore, and do the aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, acommanded it.
36 Abraham was acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for crighteousness.
37 Abraham received aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received amany wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 aDavid's wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an aappointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy banointing, she hath committed cadultery and shall be destroyed.
42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has acommitted adultery.
43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.
44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and agive her unto him that hath not committed badultery but hath been cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.
45 For I have conferred upon you the akeys and power of the priesthood, wherein I brestore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.
46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you aseal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bbind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you cremit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will acurse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.
48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you agive any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be awith thee even unto the bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I cseal upon you your dexaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your efather.
50 Behold, I have seen your asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I caccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.
57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for aSatan bseeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his cexaltation and glory.
58 Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
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text:
Thursday, January 17, 2008
Strike up the Band
I scooted over and set my camera down next to me, lest someone else come along and sit on my lap. Do you think the camera deterred the next "clueless personal space" person who came along? Nope. A man and his two year old son sat down next to me. I glanced at the little boy and smiled as he stuck his finger up his nose. Charming. The next time I looked over at him, he was using the very same finger he'd just shoved, knuckle-deep into his nasal passages, to touch my camera still sitting on the seat beside me. He looked up at me and I swear I heard him say, "Ha ha ha-ha-ha!" Gee thanks, kid.
So I scootched over a little more and watched the clock, waiting for the concert to begin. Before long, I was surrounded by spectators and the smell of old lady perfume (you know the really stinky flower kind), wet dog, stale smoke, and good old fashioned B.O. filled my nostrils. Had I been pregnant, I would surely have thrown up right then and there.
Finally the musicians filed in and took their seats. They began playing their numbers and I forgot about the annoying people around me. Both bands sounded really good actually. A little different than when they first started playing their instruments. They'd play a song and with a proud smile, inquire, "Did you like that? Do you know what song that was?"
Ummm Row, Row, Row Your Boat?
Uhhh, Frère Jacques?
Huh uh.
Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?
No Mom. It's the theme from Harry Potter! Didn't you recognize it?
Ummm yeah. Oh yeah. That was going to be my next guess!
Anyway, somewhere in the middle of the concert I noticed the little boy who had been sitting next to me was now four rows down, taking close-up, flash pictures; blinding the poor kid sitting next to him. His father was still at the top of the bleachers, seemingly oblivious that his two year old had moved on to bigger and better things.
Say cheese! flash
Say cheese! flash
Say cheese! flash
Yeah, that never gets old.
Sitting on the bleachers for the concert reminded me that baseball season is looming ahead. Then the real fun starts. Four kids playing ball at different fields across town at the same time. I know I'm looking forward to that.
Check out what's new at Mamaslike!
55 comments:
- Suburban Correspondent said...
You are definitely a better mom than me. I hate attending those things, and will only do so with some knitting in hand. And 4 kids playing sports at once? We've never even tried it. Even with 2 playing soccer, I found it sort of challenging to be in 2 places at the same time. And the younger kids spent their entire Saturday mornings being carted around from field to field and eating granola bars. They gained weight, I swear.
- January 17, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Oh gosh! I thought you were going to say that booger-boy was using *your* camera 4 rows down!
Glad you atleast enjoyed the music. - January 17, 2008 at 11:35 PM
- Kalynne Pudner said...
I think like Fay...was gonna ask, "Was it your camera?"
We did the multiple sports thing. Oh, lord, yes. One night it was SOOO BAD that I came home and wrote about it -- and this was before my blogging days. Tried to sell it to Family Fun but they judged that it wasn't very.
As soon as I started blogging, I posted it, as a long way of saying, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."
http://phdwithninekids.blogspot.com/2007/12/gps-for-parents-of-very-busy-children.html - January 17, 2008 at 11:47 PM
- MaNiC MoMMy™ said...
OMG, I was going to type the EXACT same thing that Fay just typed! Hahahah! So I won't, but that's exactly what I THOUGHT! Booger-kid. blah.
Last year my three kids all did baseball/softball and they all played the same day: Tues/Th. and since I can't triple-clone myself, it was a disaster, as I'm sure your springs are!
This year, I'm THRILLED to know they all have no interested in playing!!!
How are your points going??? I'm dying for WW to have another No-Points Day on the calendar! - January 17, 2008 at 11:50 PM
I also thought you were going to say the little boy was using your camera! Glad to hear he had his own camera to booger up.
- January 17, 2008 at 11:51 PM
- Debbie @ Three Weddings said...
We haven't had our concert yet. Last year my husband and I nearly died when we heard the first few notes of the 5th grade band. It was awful! But then they quickly got in sync and they were actually pretty good.
When I was a kid I was going to play my brother's trumpet so I tried playing along to the CHiPs theme when it was coming on. My brother told me I stunk in a way only a brother can. I ended up with the clarinet. - January 17, 2008 at 11:56 PM
- Kim VanDerHoek said...
Good to know where the best seats in the bleachers are. Thanks for the tip! I'll be sure to bring wipes in case I run into any booger-boys.
- January 18, 2008 at 12:15 AM
why do people feel the incesint need to invade your space? it's like there is this magnet inside of them forcing them closer and closer. and they always have uncontrollable spit issues! i just want to shout, "good gravy people! don't you know it's cold and flu season?! and don't you know there is an invisible box drawn all the way around me in which you are not allowed to enter? get out or risk losing the offending body part to the crazy screaming woman!" now is only my six kids, their friends, and the friends parents would only listen to me...
- January 18, 2008 at 1:06 AM
- Lucille said...
OH I feel so so smart that I knew to sit on the bleachers so early on in the school performances! I have a bad back so to me it always made sense.
I hear ya on the people that I refer to as SPACE INVADERS - I actually wrote about them a few months ago on my blog....check it out if you have time as I'm sure you'd get a chuckle from it!
Hope you were able to de-booger your camera bag!
www.whosgoingtotellyou.blogspot.com - January 18, 2008 at 1:36 AM
I'm with ya, Dawn, on the space invaders. It's to the point now that I won't even go to the movie theater. Along with people sitting on top of you, there are those who feel free to talk during the entire movie as though they are sitting in their own living rooms. So I just stay in my own living room. Good thing we have DISH network and a slew of dvds.
My husband's pet peeve is the people who stand around and block space so much you can't walk by them. He's especially fun to be with in a crowded mall or the airport. His mantra is, "Don't these people have any spacial awareness?" Um, no, honey. Some people don't. He's from North Dakota so a big space bubble is to be expected.
My dream trip is to take him to New York City. He'll have to undergo some serious retraining on the whole spacial awareness issue if he's to survive there...
Sandy in Tucson - January 18, 2008 at 2:12 AM
- Unknown said...
Hahaha....the people that attend our church must have been in attendance at that concert...I thought the same thing as Fay too, that the little snot had taken off with your camera. Glad the music was at least pleasant, even if the company wasn't.
- January 18, 2008 at 2:37 AM
Am I the only one leaving this page with a dreamy smile on my face and Patrick Swayze on my mind...? Thanks Dawn, I needed that!
- January 18, 2008 at 5:38 AM
As you can see, a lot of us feel your pain! Attending my dd's graduation commemcement at the local community college, the gym was packed! Some people were coming our way having seen someone they knew just behind us. I and my other dd stood up so they would have an easier time passing us without sticking their behinds in our faces. Instead of passing they TOOK our seats! And they wouldn't move! We ended up standing.
- January 18, 2008 at 7:01 AM
Dawn, i think the "personal space" rule went out the door with the "don't wear your hat indoors" rule and the "stand up during the National Anthem" rule.
I'm a high school teacher and I noticed that my students don't observe the "personal space" rule. They get in my face to ask me a question, shove their paper in front on my face and always interupts me when I'm talking with another student. They think they are the most important student in that classroom and that I should drop everything and help them! - January 18, 2008 at 7:15 AM
- Karen said...
I am a personal space freak. It's gotta be an arm's length to feel comfortable. I would have been seriously annoyed, too.
- January 18, 2008 at 7:21 AM
- Kim said...
Yes, I am so looking forward to spring when soccer, motocross and gymnastics start/continue. How to finess 2 in soccer one in gymnastics and then off to motocross races all over the state every weekend for my two boys and husband. Ugh.
- January 18, 2008 at 7:43 AM
- Rick said...
What instruments do your children play?
http://organizeddoodles.blogspot.com/ - January 18, 2008 at 8:27 AM
- Brenda said...
Then you will enjoy it when your kids move onto high school sports. Practice everyday or sometimes twice and the actual events 2 or 3 times a week. Say it with me "They grow up so fast."
- January 18, 2008 at 8:29 AM
Dawn, you are famous now! People WANT to sit next to you! Imagine if it was say Julia Roberts sitting on the bleachers, I would invade her space! Or at least try to get as close as possible =)
(yes yes I am comparing you to Julia...) - January 18, 2008 at 8:47 AM
Too funny. Gotta love those band concerts. The early ones are hard to get through without laughing. Thankfully the kids do improve and so does the music.
- January 18, 2008 at 8:57 AM
My secret is I paid my older kids $50 NOT to be in band. Know how much money I saved? Chorus is FREE. :) AND I didnt have to HEAR it!
I like it when we go to the early screening of a movie that has been out ie about 10 people including the 6 of us are coming to see it and people sit right in front of me! HELLO! This place is EMPTY! I get up and move. I am sure they dont even notice. - January 18, 2008 at 9:03 AM
Ooh...I was one of those people who sat in your space last week when I was at the movies. But in my defense, I was forced in the row first, and it was either I sat in someone's personal space or the last person in our group would be required to - so I thought I'd be nice and do it. Then the stranger I sat next to got up and moved to the other side of her movie friend. So yeah, she was thinking the same thing you was. Oops.
- January 18, 2008 at 9:12 AM
- Lorien Clark said...
Just wanted to tell you that I read your blog all the time and it makes my day. So I have nominated you for the You Make My Day award!
- January 18, 2008 at 9:19 AM
- Julie said...
Love that post - I agree with the space invader issue - it's like when you are in line at the store or something, and the person behind you (who invariably REEKS of something) feels it neccessary to stand exactly 2.5 inches from you. ARGGGG!!!
I just love kids & sports schedules! (read with LOTS of sarcasm) One year, my son was in soccer and baseball, which have overlapping seasons. Then my daughter was in soccer, softball, AND dance (luckily only all 3 for about 3 weeks, then soccer & dance ended for the year). If you think it's bad trying to clone yourself, try cloning your kids, too!! ha ha Fortunately, I have regained my sanity and informed my kids that there will only be ONE, I REPEAT ONE after school/weekend activity at a time. - January 18, 2008 at 9:32 AM
Apparently, people annoy you.
- January 18, 2008 at 9:32 AM
- Unknown said...
Thanks for the Dirty Dancing reference. Not much more to say that others haven't already said... "Nobody puts Baby in a corner." Or in your case, "Nobody backs UberMom into a corner!"
Have a great weekend. - January 18, 2008 at 10:02 AM
- Michael M. said...
I bet if you covered youself in green fish and some of your kid's other kitchen inventions (and smelled like an old lady yourself), etc....that nobody would sit next to you. :)
- January 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM
- Kyddryn said...
My poor mum was a chorus mum...she not only had to attend the concerts, she drove to many of them with a Jeep load of girls in blinding blue moire taffeta (never again) dresses, all of us warming up our voices and chattering like magpies about the upcoming performance. At least she got good seats, since we were always early. Your kids'll remember that you were there and some day may even understand the torture and dedication that is being a band mum. Whew!
- January 18, 2008 at 10:16 AM
- Grandmother Goddess of the Garden said...
Space Invaders! Bwwwaaahhhhhhhh! I went to a Dylan concert a few years back and they had "bench seating" with numbers painted on the seat to depict your "space". I'm a small person (please don't hate me for it) and these huge college jocks sat down next to me and did the "male" spread...you know, when their B#$^'s need more room than the seat provides. These guys were all over my space and me. Much to my husbands dismay I got fed up and asked them if they actually needed to take up that much space due to their incredible size (I wasn't that nice) because if so the rest of the crowd would probably be interested in a peak. I guess an usher heard my dilema and came over and checked their tickets...they weren't even supposed to be sitting there! I watched the rest of the concert in spacious bliss.
- January 18, 2008 at 10:17 AM
- MaBunny said...
LOL, I too thought you were going to say you realized it was your camera that the little nose picker was running around with. Glad you enjoyed the concert.
Don't envy you all the running aroudn with the upcoming baseball season due to the gas prices!! But thats another whole ranting post.
Have a great day Dawn!
MaBunny - January 18, 2008 at 10:18 AM
- Tammy said...
I think I have a solution - a stadium chair! They make them very lightweight now and that way you can sit anywhere in the bleachers you want. As for the booger kid, I don't have any advice. Just carry lots of Purell!
- January 18, 2008 at 10:42 AM
- Unknown said...
Oh boy multiple sports things, I am hoping to avoid that this year, but I have a feeling that will mean multiple practice days, and I am not sure that that is any easier.
And at least the little kid didn't have your camera taking pictures. That would have been my luck! - January 18, 2008 at 10:48 AM
- onthegomom said...
I cannot stand to attend those band/chorus concerts! It isn't that I don't want to see my own kids, I just hate the crowded auditorium!!!! I feel your pain.
- January 18, 2008 at 10:52 AM
- Unknown said...
That sounds truly horrifying! I'm going to get my brother in law to make me a shirt that says "I Believe In Personal Space" and wear it all the time. I'm completely freaked out when people get too close to me.
- January 18, 2008 at 11:06 AM
- Unknown said...
I haven't read your blog in such a long time and you're still funny as ever. I was actually feeling a little down about things and decided to read your blog for inspiration :-) As always, thanks!
- January 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM
- Maggii said...
Ha.....for me it's always someone REALLY tall or with BIG POOFY hair manages to sit right in front of me at my daughter's chorus concerts and musicals...it never fails ..no matter where I sit....they find me...LOL
last year for Annie..I couldn't see anything going on in Center Stage( which is where most of the play took place mind you)Luckily I'd gone to the dress rehearsal the night before so I'd pretty much seen the whole thing..and my daughter wasn't Annie or any other
"big" part so most of her scenes were stage left or stage right...LOL
But this year, she's Maria in The Sound of Music and I swear if some BIG POOFY Haired Bozo blocks my veiw...well there's going to be DRAMA in the House..and not on stage...LOL - January 18, 2008 at 11:44 AM
What instruments do your children play? I'm sure it meant a lot to them to have your support!
I always appreciated my parents attending my concerts and plays--and before I knew it, I was grown up and gone. So I really treasure those memories! - January 18, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Hi Dawn...I was just wondering if a lot of people in your hometown, or your children's schools, know that you are a "World Famous Blogger". For instance, the secretary at the school and the pencil incident, the booger boy's father from last night, etc.
Do you hear feedback from these people who personally see you everyday?
Hope your Friday is going well.
Donna :) - January 18, 2008 at 12:01 PM
- Roger Miller said...
I totally feel for you on the whole invading personal space issue at band concerts. I always get there early, because why drop my son off and then come back twenty minutes later. I usually bring a book, and always bring a Diet Coke or water(it gets sooo hot in the gym).
So I am usually one of the first 'seasoned' parents there, because I have that whole back row to myself. Oh sure, at one point I may have wanted to sit closer to the bands, but what is the point since it sounds better from farther away anyway. Something about being seventy feet away, and twenty-five feet above that makes the music sound so much better. :-)
It never fails, once I sit down, I'm like a magnet to "everyone" both sides, in front, on top of, you name it.
I think that is the reason I like homeschooling, the most.
Great post. - January 18, 2008 at 12:31 PM
- Heather said...
You crack me up! It reminds me of when our family went to NYC to see a Cirque du Soleil show and and entire family with British accents came and sat down in the seats in front of us. This girl my daughter's age and size proceeds to sit in front of my daughter and wants to use not only a booster seat, but her entire family's coats to sit on!!! My DD wasn't even using a booster as our seats were in one of the first four rows and thus didn't think she needed it. The mother heard our daughter asking the usher for a booster, but at that point they had no more left. I gave the mother a dirty look and she started convincing her 7 year old that she didn't need all the coats under her. I swear if she was any higher, you might as well put her onstage! We gave our daughter our coats to sit on to lift her up, but it wouldn't have been necessary if that girl didn't boost herself so high. She was sitting as high as my 6'1" husband. Totally unnecessary.
- January 18, 2008 at 12:39 PM
- natasha said...
"This is my dance space, this is your dance space" totally classic, and that had me laughing out loud.
- January 18, 2008 at 1:37 PM
- AlaneM said...
Oh sweet personal space, how I love thee!
DH & I used to live near the international district in Seattle & I had this issue ALL THE TIME!!! It was worst at the grocery store. Nothing like putting in your PIN when someone is breathing down your neck.
Have a wonderful day Dawn! - January 18, 2008 at 1:42 PM
I went to my daughter's Christmas concert...actually all upper grades..Madrigals, concert choir, jazz ensemble, band and chamber orchestra...and I didn't know about all of them until I got there. I find a seat on the end. We are a charter school and bought an old church bldg to use so we have pews in the auditorium. Man sits next to me with his two kids, here to watch an older sibling. Youngest is four and cannot be still. He kicked me 3 or 4 times, his dad put him onto the floor to go to sleep under the pew in front and he keeps sliding down under my feet. This goes on for about 1/2 hr. FINALLY, the concert choir gets up there and the boys hanging out in the soundbooth have to go sing. AT LAST! I can go hang out in the soundbooth with the assistant principal (and I am able to figure out the 'stalker boy' who has been creeping out my older daughter. She could break the kid in half easily (and she's a little thing)....I removed my kids if they kicked someone (and woe to them if they DID kick someone) or if they were getting tired and disruptive, or annoying...so why can't other people do that? Mine were/are no angels, but at least they know how to act in public (of course, at home that's another issue)
Susan - January 18, 2008 at 1:57 PM
Isn't it awful? My middle sons play basketball for the high school. He plays JV and sits Varsity, so we sit and watch both games because he usually gets a few minutes playing time with Varsity. Anyway, we also have a 5 year old son who gets bored out of his mind so we pack him a bag of toys and activities. It's great for the JV game, but when Varsity starts, we are packed in like sardines and Preston has no place to sit and color. Then, when he gets restless, we get the evil eye from everyone. It was so bad last weekend that we couldn't even stand up to cheer without elbowing someone and I sat for half the game holding our coats on my lap and sweating to death. BACK OFF PEOPLE!
- January 18, 2008 at 2:01 PM
- Stephanie said...
Hi, Dawn! Just want to let you know that I really enjoy reading your blog! I have been reading it since September. I just sent your son a post card for his project. Have a great day!
- January 18, 2008 at 2:09 PM
- Stephanie said...
Hi, Dawn! I just wanted to tell you that I really enjoy reading your blog. I just sent your son a post card from Maine. Have a great day!
- January 18, 2008 at 2:14 PM
- Terri H said...
Well, I won't ask if booger-boy was using your camera. Enough already have, so I can wait for the answer.
- January 18, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Nana & Grandpa took Taylor to see,
"Elmo grows up" in Mpls. The show was GREAT, the lady sitting next to us with her camera.........by the way, it was with light bulbs. - January 18, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Oh GAWD, how I remember those sports practices and game schedules..and band concerts and play practices and....
I had 6 kids in 7 years-so it all piled on top of each other...and it felt like all I did was live in the station wagon. AND I had a husband that thought all Saturdays were HIS and did not think attendance at games was important. The games were always across town from each other and more than once, I *forgot* someone somewhere. And often, other parents KNEW I'd be there, so I was transporting more than my own.
And then the mealtimes...with all those different practice schedules... meals were a disaster and it's a wonder anyone got fed. Somehow, they (and I) all made it and they're adults now...but OH THE PAIN! - January 18, 2008 at 5:38 PM
Gee everyone, take a breath! Now I'm afraid to go outside for fear of smelling like a little old lady or sitting too close to anyone. I also love my space but at events like these there seldom seems to be enough of it to suit everyone. Everyone is there to support their kids, right?
- January 18, 2008 at 6:13 PM
Why didn't you just give the inattentive father a wilting look and "suggest" that he hold his dear son on his lap so he could see over the heads of the people sitting in front of him. Then I'd hand him a tissue and tell him to clean the snot out of his kid's nose because it's gross.
- January 18, 2008 at 7:08 PM
- nutralady2001 said...
Bahaha at the "Apparently people annoy you" comment.....some-one who doesn't "know" you( like we do) hasn't been following your blog and......just......doesn't....."get it".......
Can't wait for the books. I'm kinda on overload right now having had to catch up on a whole week's worth of blogs/comments (yes I have to read them all)at least with the book I can read it on trains/planes/keep it for those odd moments when I'm sans computer - January 18, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Hi Dawn,
This is my first time ever commenting on a blog. I hope I don't sound like a complete dork. We have six children, too. Michael
('94), Elizabeth ('96), Isabella
('98), Winnie ('00), Sophia ('02), and Theodora ('04). You tickled me with the comment about your personal space. What drives me nuts is when I am waiting for my kids somewhere and a fellow parent comes up to my driver's side window and practically sits in my lap because their head is so far into my car. UGH!!!I feel like screaming "STEP AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE!" One would think that the look on my face would cause them to back up just a little, but some people are funny and don't have a clue. I wonder if people try to send me signals sometimes and I am the one without a clue?Hmmmm...
Take care. - January 18, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Ok, I didnt read through all 895 comments, so this may have already been said, but just in case it wasnt, and you really do read ALL your comments (haha)
"This is YOUR dance space and this is MY dance space."
Dirty Dancing, possibly the best movie...EVER. - January 19, 2008 at 12:01 AM
- chris said...
You know its to bad we have to be grown and have kids of our own before we see how great mom is.
Thanks to all of you great moms.
www.akiscb.blogspot.com - January 19, 2008 at 7:44 AM


text:
This loaf of bread had such potential. It could've been a star--perfectly pink, terrifically tasty, and oh-so-festive. Alas, things don't always work out as we hope.
See, once upon a time, I had a sugar cookie pizza topped with sweetened cream cheese and a cranberry-orange relish that totally rocked my world. Having blissfully recalled that treat, I decided to incorporate some cranberry-orange relish into a recipe for cranberry nut bread that I had recently seen.
The original recipe called for orange juice and chopped cranberries, but my experiment involved the orange juice and cranberries (and a bit of orange zest) being pureed to within an inch of their lives and folded into the batter. Even before baking, I could tell I was headed down a dangerous road. The batter was uber-thick and a little bit pasty, but I plowed onward (somewhat literally).
The loaf that came out of the oven looked surprisingly lovely and smelled quite appetizing. Sadly, its pretty appearance couldn't make up for the fact that it was extremely tart and not nearly sweet enough for my tastes. The texture was weird too--a little gummy, but not completely off-putting. All in all, although entirely edible and, some might argue, tasty, this is not something I'd recommend or repeat.
Cream of Cranberry Bread
(inspired by this recipe)
2 cups flour
1 cup sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons baking powder
1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
3/4 cup orange juice, freshly-squeezed (but not pureed with cranberries)(bad idea)
1 tablespoon grated orange peel
2 tablespoons shortening
1 egg, well beaten
1 1/2 cups fresh or frozen cranberries,
1 cup chopped walnuts
Preheat oven to 350ºF. Grease a 9 x 5-inch loaf pan.
Mix together flour, sugar, baking powder, salt and baking soda in a medium mixing bowl. Stir in orange juice, orange peel, shortening, and egg. Mix until well-blended. Stir in cranberries (coarsely-chopped, mind you)(not pureed) and nuts. Spread evenly in loaf pan.
Bake for 55 minutes or until a toothpick inserted in the center comes out clean. Cool on a rack for 15 minutes.


text:
Justin Bieber's Monkey Quarantined In Germany
The 19-year-old singer arrived at Munich airport last Thursday. When he went through customs, he didn't have the documentation necessary to bring the capuchin monkey into the country, so the animal had to stay with authorities, customs spokesman Thomas Meister said.
Bieber performed in Munich on Thursday, beginning the latest leg of his European tour. He later tweeted: "Munich was a good time. And loud. The bus is headed to Vienna now. U coming?" He didn't mention the monkey.
The Canadian singer is giving several concerts in Austria and then in Germany over the next week.
Bieber had a trying stay in London recently. The star struggled with his breathing and fainted backstage at a show, was taken to a hospital and then was caught on camera clashing with a paparazzo. Days earlier, he was booed by his beloved fans when he showed up late to a concert.


text:
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When you look for the highest quality real estate service, look to a RE/MAX Associate. Here's why RE/MAX Associates are "The Real Estate Leaders":
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RE/MAX – now an established industry leader – with over 40 years in the industry RE/MAX looks ahead to even greater real estate achievement in the years ahead.


text:
Reserved for deirdre84nj,Custom Made 7mm Round Forever Brilliant Engagement Ring
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Your satisfaction is very important to us. If you are not completely satisfied with your purchases, please return within 30 days of receipt of them for exchange or refund. The jewelry must be in original and unused condition as you received.
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We stand behind the quality and craftsmanship of our jewelry. LOGR offers a free lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects on all LOGR fine jewelry. Our manufacturing warranty excludes coverage for wear and tear, loss of center stone, or theft.
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Yes. We have Customer services in Toronto, Canada and Boston, U.S., you can send your returns to these locations for your convenience. Warranty and repair works are done in Massachusetts. Our jewelry is made at our workshop in China.
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Yes. Any style you like. We can start from scratch on the paper or photo you like. Additional cost applied but very reasonable.
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We make every attempt to ensure that our item description and picture is as accurate as possible, and your jewelry match the online listing. However most items are made to order, that means we made it just for you when you order it, the metal weight and number of accent stones used in a ring may vary depending on your ring size and other factors. In addition, due to the nature of handmade work, each piece may slightly different than other. Merchandise pictures are enlarged to show details but may not be exact same as actual items.
- How to find my ring size?
Please check out here for your reference.
Ethically Sourced Gemstones
Our recycled precious metals are as beautiful as they are responsible. We believe there should be no compromise between quality and conscience.


text:
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iFlex Wood Products are heat bendable mouldings and trim that can be painted, stained, drilled, sanded and varnished. Most are lightweight and can be molded to any contoured surface. They adhere to just about any surface to include wood, glass, MDF, plastic and more!
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Your rights under the California Consumer Privacy Act
The California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) provides you with rights regarding how your data or personal information is treated. Under the legislation, California residents can choose to opt out of the "sale" of their personal information to third parties. Based on the CCPA definition, "sale" refers to data collection for the purpose of creating advertising and other communications. Learn more about CCPA and your privacy rights.
How to opt out
By clicking on the link below, we will no longer collect or sell your personal information. This applies to both third-parties and the data we collect to help personalize your experience on our website or through other communications. For more information, view our privacy policy.


text: Regular meetings of the Board of Trustees are held on the third Tuesday of each month at 5 p.m. in Meeting Room B at the Main Library. Agendas and minutes will be posted below in PDF format as soon as they are available. To request e-mail notification of Board of Trustees meetings, please use our Newsletter Signup.


text:
Over the course of two days in February, scientists watched something amazing happening on the surface of our sun: A giant black spot grew to over six Earths in diameter.
NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center released a picture of the sun, which shows the spots in deep black.
NASA explains that it's hard to know the full extent of the spots, because it's on a sphere "not a flat disk." NASA adds:
"The spot quickly evolved into what's called a delta region, in which the lighter areas around the sunspot, the penumbra, exhibit magnetic fields that point in the opposite direction of those fields in the center, dark area. This is a fairly unstable configuration that scientists know can lead to eruptions of radiation on the sun called solar flares."
Copyright 2021 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


text:
The Coin Collection
Whether it's a special occasion or you want to announce your everlasting love to your partner, there's a diamond for every moment. De Beers Forevermark diamonds are available in a selection of timeless diamond jewellery, from stunning diamond engagement rings to delicate necklaces and classic tennis bracelets, you'll discover the design of your dreams.
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