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Tynan Elder Oak wrote: Most people would wait until a particular tree spirit 'calls' them and then start working on it. How one does that is totally up to the individual but usually it is considered a good idea to 'sit and talk' or share energy with the staff and develop a kind of a relationship with it before starting to work with it.
katie bridgewater wrote:there is already an excellent thread on staff making here:
lots of practical advice and experience - it will save you waiting for everyone to post again!
Kima wrote:katie bridgewater wrote:there is already an excellent thread on staff making here:
lots of practical advice and experience - it will save you waiting for everyone to post again!
When I click on the link, I get this message: "you are not authorised to read this forum"
I found another thread called "Wands - making and choosing". Is it the same one?
IMO hazel, ash and chestnut make the best staffs, they all grow straight and strong. Crab apple is very good too, lovely colour and knobbly. Hazel and apple look best with the bark left on, chestnut with it taken off, ash either way. Birch and willow get rather brittle and long lengths of holly and blackthorn are hard to find, though they are very good if you can find them, likewise rowan, though a making a rowan staff will most likely mean cutting the whole sapling.
I like to put a ferrule on the bottom, I prefer a metal one though a rubber one might suit if you use it on concrete a lot. Without a ferrule the end will get worn, damp will get in if you walk with it and eventually the bottom will start to discolour and split.
If you want a twisty one find a wood where honeysuckle (woodbine) grows, as it grows round a sapling or straight branch it will strangle the wood and this makes for an interesting twisty shape.
Although you can find dead wood which isn't rotten, often dead wood has woodworm or fungi which you really really don't want in your house. For this reason I'd recommend cutting live wood especially if you aren't experienced enough to spot signs of worm or deathwatch beetle. Cut it with a small saw. Leave a clean cut, try not to tear the bark. A sloping cut which sheds water will be healthiest for the tree.
Dry for 3 or 4 months in shade in a ventilated shed or garage, dip the ends in molten wax if you can be bothered as this prevents splitting, though if you cut a longer length than you need initially then you can always saw off the few inches at each end if they have split. If you can, dry it in a horizontal position otherwise the top will dry out sooner than the bottom. If its bent or crooked you can straighten it by cable tie-ing it to a straight stick like a broomstick. Once it is dry it will stay straight
After its dry, if you are going to keep the bark on, give it a light rub with a damp cloth to remove greeny scum, use a knife to remove any little twigs or stubby bits, then smooth over the cuts with sandpaper. Sand the whole thing nice and smooth with a fine grit paper (240 grit or so). Then you can seal it with beeswax polish or a wood oil, like Danish oil, I wouldn't recommend varnish as its toxic and unnecessary.
If you are going to take the bark off how easy this is varies with the tree, but usually a sharp knife, followed by sandpaper does the job. Some trees are really easy to peel when they are green and awkward when dry (like willow, pine or hazel), though the wood will dry more evenly and be stronger in the long run if it dries with the bark on. Once you've peeled it and sanded it you'll need to seal it in some way, with wax or oil, otherwise the wood will absorb dirt where you handle it and be vulnerable to worm etc. These oils etc will darken (fire) the wood, if you want a light finish then a lime wax will be best.
Thickness is a matter of taste, for me, for a walking stick length one anything thicker than your thumb seems overkill, for a full length staff an inch to inch and a half in diameter seems plenty to me otherwise what you have isn't a staff, its a log!
Coreylee wrote:
Ok, I've come pretty far along on my staff, but now I've run into a few questions. I was wondering if anyone reccomended putting a crystal on the end of the staff and if so how is such a thing done it's giving my fits. I was also wondering about putting symbols on it. I was thinking of staning the want painting what symbols I wanted to on it, and then putting polyurythane over that, but I have no idea how that's gonna turn out.
Personally I don't like the use of crystals (a very good souvenir of the rape of the earth as Paul Mitchell sings), unless of course you found it yourself on the beach or something. A nicely shaped beach or river pebble, or a bit of antler could look splendid though. Anyway it is very difficult simply to stick something non-porous like a crystal or a stone to something porous like wood, and not have it fall off the first time it gets knocked. You either need to set it into some sort of socket or insert a tenon or rod to connect the two. If the staff top isn't big enough to carve a socket into perhaps a bit of copper tube which fits over the top of the staff and also allows the crystal to fit into it would do. The best glue to use for this sort of thing is a two part epoxy adhesive (like Araldite in the UK).
Antler, horn, bones and pebbles can be drilled to accept a piece of threaded rod, the easiest way is to drill in (it is possible to drill into stone with specialised masonry bits, antler, horn or bone drill easily with any HSS bit) then screw a long bolt into the antler/bone so that a good length of thread is still visible (ie the bolt isn't all the way in) then hacksaw the head off the bolt leaving the thread. Drill a hole in the top of the staff, cover the threaded rod in epoxy glue and then screw the two parts together. Since many bones are naturally hollow cutting one end off may also make a socket which could receive the top of the staff, though you might have to enlarge the hollow in the bone or carve a tenon into the top of the staff. A thick enough piece of antler could also be carved to make a socket, the marrow like core to an antler is easy enough to remove with a knife, file or drill, and the strong bony outside would make a good socket to receive the top of the staff. Both antler and bone can be carved easily enough to take symbols etc, since obviously you can't burn designs onto them. Antler especially does have a strong grain which makes it easy to carve along its length and hard to carve across the grain, so practise on a scrap bit first!
There are lots of wood stains available, spirit stains work best but aren't very earth friendly and you need to wear gloves and work outdoors. Better is a water based stain with low VOC (volatile oil content). Polyurethane varnish coats wood in a layer of plastic, and it looks like it too. A wax or oil based finish is much more natural and less environmentally damaging. Pyrography (wood burning) is an easy way of marking symbols onto wood, you can buy special pyrography irons but a soldering iron or even a screwdriver heated up in a flame will do the job.
Nico wrote:What is a staff for?
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Confirmed as the connoisseurs favourite, the AnotherLateNight series has sold by the bucketload and received praise across the board. Now as time moves on, it's time to put the 'Another' to bed and carry on carrying on with LateNightTales, but don't worry, it's business as usual and the winning formula is staying up with us. A fluid journey through the twilight hours where your favourite artists let you in on their innermost aural secrets. The host gets involved delivering an exclusive cover version of their favourite half-light gem, backed with a LateNight spoken word story that runs over the next 4 releases. Are you sitting comfortably?
Nightmares On Wax, aka DJ EASE, aka George Evelyn steps forward and delivers his LateNightTale - giving you an insight into the tunes that have shaped his sound.
The LateNight phenomenon always aims to deliver you, the listener, with a put-it-on-and-let-it-play LateNight party pack. The series keeps with a policy of being all about the quality of the tunes and N.O.Ws eclecticism and eccentricity makes him another perfect candidate to tell his own set of tall stories for the small hours.
This ain't no normal nightmare...
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National Staff Development Council (NSDC)
Model Professional Development Awards Program
National Partnership for Excellence and Accountability in Teaching (NPEAT)
Co-nect, Inc.
THE PRACTICE: Professional development should provide learning opportunities that relate to individual needs but are, for the most part, organized around collaborative problem solving.
(Select Action Research from pull-down menu.) Article in UFT's Special Edition, Volume 14 about Constructing Knowledge: Building Communities of Learners through Job-Embedded Professional Development (CK), an action research project conducted during the 2000-2001 school year by the Northeast and Islands Regional Educational Lab at Brown University (LAB). Action research was the vehicle used to engage participants in a quest to develop habits of mind for collaboration and inquiry. The goals were to build growing communities of learners to work with local evidence and ultimately to alter their practices based on findings resulting from their inquiry. Article includes outline of project design and case studies for several sites.
(Select Creating Clusters from pull-down menu.) Article in UFT's Special Edition, Volume 14 about study groupwss as primary vehicles for professional development in the Teacher Center at Theodore Roosevelt High School. the Bronx, NY. specific examples given about what they do.
Non-judgmental, inquiry-based approach to leadership development in which principals form partnerships to help each other reflect on their practice. PAL partners work together over a period of 4 to 8 months, shadowing and interviewing each other to collect data and analyze their leadership activities in context. Participants also meet regularly as a group, learning and practicing various inquiry skills (e.g., shadowing, interviewing, theme identification), as well as sharing and processing their partnership experiences. These meetings, together with the partnerships, provide a supportive forum for professional dialog that reduces isolation, deepens understanding, and supports change.
Describes the Mathematics Case Methods project that references a collection of cases for use by primary teachers and another for classroom discussion by students with teachers serving as facilitators. The cases portray real-life teaching dilemmas that build teacher capacity through the careful process of reflection and inquiry generated by facilitated discussions with other teachers. They assist teachers in developing deep pedagogical content knowledge, the ability to see the subject through the eyes of the student, and to know what instructional experiences can be used to capitalize on that child's thinking. Whether cases are content specific or deal with broader teaching issues, case discussants examine different approaches to teaching and learning, considering the benefits and drawbacks of each.
This resource is developed and maintained by The Education Alliance at Brown University. Seed funding was provided by the U.S. Department of Education. Send comments to: email@example.com


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IPTV's Dan Wardell @ 9:30am (free ticket required)
What |
When | Jul 20, 2011 from 09:30 am to 10:10 am |
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Stories and adventure with Dan Wardell from Iowa Public Television's Kid Clubhouse. Pick up your free tickets for Dan's 9:30 or 10:30 program when you register at the library for the summer reading program.
Dan Wardell is producer and host of the IPTV Kids Clubhouse at Iowa Public Television. His adventures take him to schools and libraries across the state, teaching kids to turn off their TVs, to go outside and play, to use their imaginations, and most importantly, to read a good book.
Wardell's Reading Road Trip is an exclusive 60 stop library tour each summer and has performed for over 50,000 kids and grownups during the past four years. All of his travels, in addition to his "Healthy Minutes" and IPTV Kids Clubhouse segments can be found here: www.iptv.org/dantastic
Tickets are free & required, and can be picked up at the library for either of Dan's programs.


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Collections of Recipes
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Do you have any cooking questionsor need a cooking tip?
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Recipes with Tasty Side Dishes+Summer Season+Appetizer Course+for-a-crowd+Spring Season
Minted Mixed Peas
Grandma would pick the sugar snap peas for this dish right from her garden. The minted butter is simple, but makes the peas taste so fancy!


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Missions Links
We want to share some information about who we are and what we are doing. God is at work in a wonderful way on our campus in the area of young people who are seriously considering how they can fit into His global picture.
Chris DeWelt is the Director of Missions. He began teaching at OCC in the Fall of 1999 and has brought a wide range of missions experience including eight years on the mission field in the country of Chile. Chris served as president of the National Missionary Convention in 2004 and actively serves as an adviser to a multitude of students, mission teams, and organizations.
Tara Schaubert is currently serving as the Administrative Assistant to the Director of Missions.
Here are the four principles that form the framework of our program. The Missions Department of OZARK CHRISTIAN COLLEGE is dedicated:
If you have an interest in missions, either to serve cross-culturally or to send cross-culturally, we are here for you. There is a real excitement on campus to see the nations come to the throne of God.
June 3-6 and 10-13 for adults (55+). Come enjoy the Sights, Sounds, Scenes and Shows of Branson.
June 5 through July 3.
July 1-3 and 8-10 for Jr. High girls.
July 9-12, visit OCC's booth. Watch for details on the Alumni & Friends reception.
Changing the world.One leader at a time.


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Four California men allegedly victimized in clerical sex abuse have settled their lawsuits against their former priest, the Los Angeles Archdiocese and Cardinal Roger Mahony for almost $10 million, their attorneys said Tuesday.
The priest, no longer in the clergy, abused the boys on several occasions dating back to the 1970s, including during overnight trips to San Diego and Riverside counties, the attorneys said.
The priest pleaded guilty to molesting boys in 2007 and was released in 2011 with credit for time served, the attorneys said.
Four civil lawsuits were filed separately by two brothers and two other people, and the plaintiffs reached a settlement this month with the church and Mahony, said attorney Vince Finaldi of Irvine, California.
None of the plaintiffs was a victim in the criminal case against the priest, but a third brother of the two sibling plaintiffs was a victim, Finaldi said.
J. Michael Hennigan, an attorney for the archdiocese, confirmed the settlement of $9.9 million with the four men who alleged the former priest, Michael Baker, was their abuser.
"We accepted responsibility for all of Michael Baker's misconduct, and the issue with respect to these cases was trying to find an acceptable number to resolve the cases," Hennigan told CNN.
Baker couldn't be immediately reached for comment Tuesday.
He and Mahony are identified as defendants in one of the lawsuits, Finaldi said. Though the other three lawsuits don't list Baker and Mahony as defendants, Finaldi said they are indeed defendants.
Under California procedural requirements, defendants are not listed by name in suits filed by sex abuse plaintiffs older than age 26, Finaldi said.


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AutoMD Shifting the Power to You
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Mark Matheson
Follow defenseman Mark Matheson on Twitter @25Maddog
Our First Road Trip
Hey Wolves Fans! Want to start off by thanking everyone that came out to support us this past weekend. The Allstate Arena was loud and electric, which made for a great welcome back weekend for #thebooys.
Fall Has Arrived!
Three sure tell signs that summer is over.
1. The leaves have changed color.
2. The temperature has dropped and people are preparing their households for another winter.
3. The most exciting part of fall, is the fact that another hockey season is beginning.
Maddog's Back!
Hey Wolves Fans!!! Hope everyone enjoyed the hot weather this summer and you're geared up for another Chicago Wolves Hockey Season.


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the thing that struck me a weird is that when they interviews the so called parents, they didnt seem to broke up about their kid being just shot.
so wait there is a chance that Victoria Soto is still alive? she was soooooooo hot
Team CAL
Where is the audio, they were probably talking about fond times with their kids or they are strong or it wasn't just after or they are kind of in shock or whatever. If you buy what the idiot who put up this video says you are the dummy, the hoax is the theory of a hoax.
Last edited by DogStar69; 01-16-2013 at 04:10 PM.
Howard is a Vomit.
oh, if only Monk would neg Dogstar69 again
John 3:16
yea I agree about that one, but the one before with the guy that came out for the press conference was the one I was talking about. And all the fund collection sites and facebook sites that came out days before. Relax man I just came across this video and watched. and questioned a few things so chill


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Enjoy this fun look at Learning is for Everyone's Makerspace Project Red Bull Creation 2012 entry! Team members hailed from LI4E's FTC Team Duct Tape , and put their collective creativity to the test to develop the massive Rube Goldberg-like device in just three days!
Here's the team's description of their creation:
This over-engineered beauty is the Red Bull Wake-Up-Call alarm clock. Since anything worth doing is worth over-doing, this Bullduino-driven morning persuader is configured out a variety of repurposed items, including:
- a 60 year old Seth Thomas travel clock
- a Yamaha stage piano with speaker and woofer
- an NXT brick
- a couple of LEGO motors
- a steel trap triggered by a falling anvil
- and lots of duct tape!
They Make, therefore they Are – awesome!


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To analogize intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, even for such liberal-tugging reasons as genocide, an old and favorite shibboleth whose mere utterance seems to excuse, in the liberal imagination, any sort of foolishness, not to mention to obviate the laws of physics and all the lessons of history, to something like stopping a mugging is to engage in the lousiest sort of casuistry. The Sudan is not a person.
To interventionists seeking a case for so-called humanitarian intervention--often proposed and never practiced--the Darfur presents a possibility to deploy the troops free of any moral taint. It is good and evil, refugees and marauders, displaced people versus government-backed militias. Right? Right?
Clearly not. The Sudan is embroiled--and has been embroiled--in a complex civil conflict for many years. Would we plunge in, oblivious to language, culture, and indigenous folkways, which differ from tribe to tribe, village to village, region to region, and cordon off the refugee camps, putting Hummers in the way of horses. For how long? And then how do we send the displaced home? Who returns expropriated property? What is the legitimate government? What does intervention mean.
And on this point the proponents of intervention are no more capable of explaining the purpose and end-game of their wished-for police action than George W. Bush is of defining victory in Iraq. The interventionist sees a Bad Thing, and he conisders himself a Good Person, and for all its depredations and in spite of its history, he sees the United States as a Force For Good In The World, if only it wanted to be, and it is his utmost desire that the moral standing of his society be proven to him through its generous application of ordnance to Bad Guys.
The interventionist is apt to make improbable comparisons. If you see a crime in the street, is it not your duty to do something? Irrelevant. A mugging, a rape, or a murder is a discrete act; it does or does not take place. It is or isn't arrested. But a civil conflict, no matter what clarity distant observers believe they can discern between its moral and immoral actors, is not a discrete act. It is thousands and thousands of individual acts occuring over time and geography. Each act has a history; each actor has a past. There are questions of language and of culture, of full and partial loyalties, as well as of full and partial enmities. There are circumstances that will remain opaque to outsiders. A civil war is a web that doesn't easily come untangled simply because the Western conscience wishes to salve itself through international vigilantism. If we wish to incrementally improve lives around the world, we can buy and sell with them on fair and equitable terms, and we can reopen our borders. All else is folly. With guns.
Tuesday, March 11, 2008
Who Is My Neighbor?
100 comments:
- eatbees said...
I wonder how many interventionists would really step between a mugger and his victim? They would be the ones peering out from under their drawn shades while muttering, "Someone should call the police."
Interventionists are largely motivated by selfishness. They want the ugliness to go away so they won't have to think about it any longer. - 2:38 PM
- Anonymous said...
Right again Msr. An individual act, whether in Darfur, Gaza, Kosovo or hometown USA, is one thing. Unleashing an army is something else altogether.
For the interventionists, please evaluate who to attack and who to ignore: Palestinians, Kurds (Turk, Persian and Arab), Greeks (Cypriot), Turks (ibid), Navajoes, Maori, Tamils, Indians (Zimbabwe), Indians (Kashmir), Pakistanis (Kashmir), Lebanese, Chechnyans, Basques, Irish (UK), Inuit, Bosnians, Kosovars, Serbs, Croats, Armenians, Jews, Panamanians. Now try to tell us why.
drip - 2:46 PM
- Ash said...
The title of your post isn't answered in its body, is it? Did I miss something? Who is your neighbor?
You seem to accept that an individual should intervene if a drunken old jerk is raping a little girl but if 40 Janjaweed guys are raping 200 Darfurian girls it does not warrant an intervention. Is it the number of participants? The distance from your home? They aren't American citizens? You don't understand their relationship? Muslims can do it if they like?
I'm not arguing that the US should intervene in Darfur specifically, even with a cosmetic coalition of the willing. I am arguing that there is a basis for intervention an the US should contribute to a coalition to serve the warrants if they be unsealed by the ICC. This is intervention yes, but in a very proscribed way. - 2:56 PM
- IOZ said...
Your thinking isn't very clear, ash, and your second paragrah is an awfully poor attempt to get a rise. "Who is your neighbor" is the question Jesus asks of the scholar in the parable of the Good Samaritan.
- Anonymous said...
Ash, you're quite a boob.
- Anonymous said...
Let me try and be a bit more diplomatic than my predecessor in anonymity, Ash: What makes you think the American empire has any interest in doing what you suggest? What makes you think it has the moral standing to act in such a manner?
The answer to these questions, are, obviously:
1. You're very dim-witted
2. A chemical imbalance - 3:30 PM
- Anonymous said...
ash how about go and read WHAT HAS AMERICAN EMPIRE DONE beginning with displacing spanish colonialism ,
the conquest and occupation of philippines should help clear some cow-webs and moving forward in time will do more good .
empires by the nature and need engage in loot pillage rape destruction etc etc of occupied people / land .
badri - 3:37 PM
- Ash said...
Yes, muddled thinking does prevail at times and I shall try to be more clear.
IOZ, your writing style also appears to have risibility as a goal. I enjoy it. However to the main point - you do seem to allow/accept intervention in an individual case, and I presume, you accept it in the broader society through our justice system, the police ect. Or are you an anarchist? How different is the issue when you extend it beyond the borders of the US? Is it really a difference in kind? If you think it is a difference in kind should there be no restraints on actions? In reality all actions are done by individuals. The state can provide 'cover'. I know, I know, its all a muddle but it is a complex and interesting issue. - 3:42 PM
- The Promiscuous Reader said...
good point, most recent anonymous, but I'd begin with "bringing the Indian savages to Christ," not with liberating the Filipinos from the Spanish yoke and bringing them to Christ.
- Ash said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- The Promiscuous Reader said...
ash, why are you so obsessed with establishing that the rapist is 40 years old and drunk? Would you intervene if he were a stone-sober 20 year old frat boy?
Actually, your question reminds me of a story, possibly apocryphal about the notorious Bloomsbury bugger Lytton Strachey, who declared himself a pacifist conscientious objector during World War I. One of his judges at the conscripton board asked him, "What would you do if a Hun were raping your sister?" He replied, "I would endeavor to interpose myself between them." - 3:48 PM
- Ash said...
yes, yes, the Evil Empire has done, and is doing, many evil things. It seems some here think it only does evil. Part of the problem is the evil empire acts like an empire when it should cede some authority and decision making to others. Still it is an empire and it is with many constant interactions with the world, some including violence. The fact that America has done much bad in the past isn't actually relevant to whether an International Criminal Court could not provide the basis for helpful interventions in the future (prosecuting the leaders of the massacre in Darfur for example).
- IOZ said...
The next time you happen to be strolling through the Darfur countryside, ash, I fully support your plan to stop a rape. I am not, alas, able to determine how that is germane to the armed intervention by a foreign military in a civil war.
- Ash said...
TPR, because it is a simple depiction of an intervention that would be easy (hit in the head with stick) with clear moral lines (young girl being violated). Darfur is brought up by many because it is perceived to be an easy case to make on the larger scale though IOZ makes good points on the folly of treating it simplistically. However he seems to have arrived at the conclusion that any intervention is bad, that it cannot ever be ok. This is what I disagree with. We live in a highly connected world surrounded by artificial boundaries called borders with folk pounding the crap out of others for a variety of reasons. It seems to me that to adopt a no intervention, not ever, stance is to accept a Hobbesian world of rape and plunder as the norm that we want.
- Ash said...
The favored method seems to be to arm proxies. Pick a side and hope for the best. Just let 'em duke it out, duck and run for cover. In the Israeli/Pali conflict I guess we can just stop funding both sides. - 4:06 PM
- puppylander said...
"In the Israeli/Pali conflict I guess we can just stop funding both sides."
no. we can't. - 4:10 PM
- IOZ said...
I don't think that you've read much Hobbes, or you might recognize the irony in calling your "highly connected world surrounded by artificial boundaries called borders" a "Hobbesian world of rape and plunder."
- Montag said...
Instruments of state power are a tricky fucker.
That these instruments can be controlled by The People (For The Purpose of Good,) in any meaningful sense, is fantasy.
The forces that do act to control them, I contend, do so (just as in our host's example "civil conflict") with so many separate motivations, cross-purposes, party loyalties, etc. that the results are at best amoral and for the most part ugly in human terms.
To take a stab at the titular question: Our neighbor will ever be the one the elite sold us.
PS: The ICC is absolutely off the table of US foreign policy. Period. Our war criminals at home don't want anything to do with it.
PPS: heheh. IOZ said, "moral taint." - 4:26 PM
- Montag said...
maybe i missed something (there were only a couple of comments when i started typing my last.)
is the question: intervention or no intervention?
or is it: intervention for moral purposes is impossible from within an imperial power apparatus?
i never tested well. i hope i don't fail. - 4:32 PM
- la Rana said...
Everyone (save IOZ, oddly) seems intent on gang-banging ash, but she seems sincere enough, and I haven't quite abandoned the hope that we might teach these lessons to others and persuade some from their folly.
That said, its always interesting to engage the pro-humanitarian-intervention set on the particulars. With regard to the Sudan, are they aware, for instance, that Sudan is struggling to recover from a civil war not involving Darfur, which may still result in succession of the south from the north (like a new UN recognized state, a la Kosovo); that the abduction of children, which has garnered international attention, does not involve Darfur but occurs in the South; that many if not most parts of the country are hopelessly divided among tribal groups, some of which have proven hostile to any governing structure that does not intimately involve them; that Sudan has an ongoing conflict with Chad; and that poverty, famine and violence are common throughout the country?
Then there are the problems in Darfur.
What, pray tell, would humanitarian intervention even look like (let alone hope to achieve)? I mean fuck, the only time it's even claimed to have worked we just indiscriminately dropped bombs on people. - 4:32 PM
- ran said...
"The fact that America has done much bad in the past isn't actually relevant to whether an International Criminal Court could not provide the basis for helpful interventions in the future"
why don't we start with prosecuting Bush and his co-conspirators for war crimes and crimes against humanity in Iraq? or is justice just for the little people? - 4:46 PM
- Ash said...
Isn't "Hobbesian World" blog slang for a world without government, survival of the fittest, the one who dares takes what he can? i.e. a world without government.
la rana wrote:
"What, pray tell, would humanitarian intervention even look like"
Let me try my version what what it could look like:
ICC issues arrest warrant for Ali Muhammad Ali Abd-Al-Rahman and Ahmad Muhammad Harun.
A sufficient international force is mustered (led most likely by the US as we love all things gun like) and the two are extracted and held to face trial. - 4:53 PM
- Christopher said...
Is it really a difference in kind?
Well, the police in my neighborhood rarely drop bombs on us from airplanes.
The American justice system certainly hoovers up its own fair share of innocent people, but I would tend to argue that once the difference in degree is big enough it becomes a difference in kind.
I am sympathetic to the idea of some kind of international court, though, for essentially the same reason. Conflicts within the United States are settled more peacefully then conflicts between us and another nation.
Ash, what constitutes "intervention" in your mind? Does it refer purely to military action? - 4:53 PM
- Ash said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- Ash said...
I'm sorry to post so much but the seat is hot.
No, Christopher, there are many types of intervention ranging from funding to de-funding, to violence. - 5:01 PM
- Ash said...
ran, their crimes have NOT risen to a level that the ICC would consider it. Maybe we'll get to a point someday where legal ramifications would make waging offensive war worth as second thought
- Brian said...
"The fact that America has done much bad in the past isn't actually relevant to whether an International Criminal Court could not provide the basis for helpful interventions in the future"
God....Just God. I'm sorry to join the "gang bang," but let's see the logic hear:
From it's founding as an empire, the United States has slaughtered, raped, and pillaged. ALL empires do so. It is in their nature. This is not in the PAST, some DARK AGE that an Obama Presidency would magically transform. We are CURRENTLY engaged in the imperial project, with hundreds of bases and facilities around the world. We are CURRENTLY dropping bombs in a conflict initiated by US that has resulted in, conservatively, 600,000 deaths.
Yet, Ms. Ash kindly and softly says "We have done such in the past but maybe, just maybe if people like us, or international bureaucracies staffed with "good" people just like us (even though said people like us have engaged in as much rapine, war, and empire as the current nasty crew)
I hate to be harsh, but...that's not kindheartedness or positive in any way-it requires positively chosen blindness.
As for arresting said tribal leaders...you are ignoring Ioz' and other's main points: This is a nasty little squabble amongst multiple partners. There are no innocent leaders, one could argue. Arresting these two gentlemen would do nothing to resolve the underlying structural chaos. - 5:08 PM
- ran said...
"their crimes have NOT risen to a level that the ICC would consider it"
what? they've only murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis in an illegal war of aggression based on a pack of risible lies. they have as much right invading and occupying Iraq as Germany had invading and occupying Poland during WW2. where's the ICC's threshold anyway? - 5:13 PM
- Brian said...
Also, how many hundreds of thousands of people must die before their "crimes" merit prosecution by said ICC? The Bush Administration, and certainly the Clinton Administration, the carter Administration, the Nixon Administration, the Johnson Administration, and good ol Horndog Jackie K individually and cumulatively killed, funded death, or otherwise caused to be killed far more people than the typical Sudanese warlord. Why are their crimes somehow less severe or worthy of action? Tell that to an Iraqi mother cradling the armless torso of her toddler, or the members of a wedding party slaughtered from above by aerial weaponry.
Which means, in reality, YOU and your precious ICC are doing nothing more than making political decisions based on enemies and conflicts du jour. The ICC is nothing more than a Political court, staffed by politicians kowtowing to political interests, which current means the American military machine (and, in the future, Chinese economic power as we bankrupt ourselves in these oh so patriotic interventions.)
I cannot believe someone could make the statement you made. Their crimes do not merit consideration by the ICC? Jeezou! - 5:14 PM
- Ash said...
You guys might try reading up on the court as it appears you know little of it. Here is there little blurb in the about but if you follow the link to the Rome Statute then you knowledge will be even greater.
"The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an independent, permanent court that tries persons accused of the most serious crimes of international concern, namely genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The ICC is based on a treaty, joined by 105 countries.
The ICC is a court of last resort. It will not act if a case is investigated or prosecuted by a national judicial system unless the national proceedings are not genuine, for example if formal proceedings were undertaken solely to shield a person from criminal responsibility. In addition, the ICC only tries those accused of the gravest crimes.
In all of its activities, the ICC observes the highest standards of fairness and due process. The jurisdiction and functioning of the ICC are governed by the Rome Statute. Download the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (PDF, 448KB)."
http://www.icc-cpi.int/about.html - 5:25 PM
- ran said...
crimes against humanity by the US in Iraq? check.
war crimes against the Iraqis by the US in Iraq? check.
illegal war of aggression by the US against Iraq? check.
this is a slam dunk case, or else the ICC is a worthless political institution as brian says. so much for its goddamned "independence". - 5:35 PM
- Charles Davis said...
Ah, so the ICC is now the Last Great Liberal Hope -- the same court that couldn't convict Milosevic after several years of stacking the court against him. I'll believe it's "independent" the day that anyone from the Bush or Blair governments is prosecuted for the war in Iraq. But you know what? Not. Going. To. Happen. And for the same reasons that the United Nations didn't do a damn thing about the US and Britain violating its charter to launch a war of aggression against Iran -- because these supposedly independent bodies are controlled by the Western governments and they won't allow anything that causes them to lose face. War crime tribunals are for the smalltime murderers, while Anglo-Saxon "humanitarian interventionists" spend retirement at the country club.
As for intervening in Darfur, I'm reminded of what Stephen Kinzer, author of All the Shah's Men, recently had to say about U.S. intervention in Iran in 1953:
"When you violently intervene in the political development of another country, you can never predict what the long-term consequences will be. And most likely, although the consequences will be terrible and tragic for the target country, they will be even worse for the country that launched the intervention."
Sounds about right to me. - 5:38 PM
- Brian said...
What does "Act" mean? To paraphrase one nasty dictator or another, how many divisions or nuclear bombs does the ICC have?
The definition of most serious crimes remains worthless, as well. Why did the ICC try Slobodon and not white slaver/drug running KLA "freedom fighters" (or, for that matter, the not-so-innocent after all Croats, Solvenese, and even some Bosnian leaders?) Political decisions, all.
You still don't answer the questions: Why is Sudan so much more terrible than American policy? Why,given history, do you assume that now we will be a force for peace, love, and understanding. Empires cannot be such. The sociopaths and power mad greedheads who almost always head such empires are not interested in such. The solution is dissolution-waekening the ability of centralized powers to impose their will on a vast scale.
Such decisions are inevtiably political - 5:41 PM
- bRIAN said...
I meant "Slovenes" of course. Terrible typist.
Don't worry, Ash. Just head down to the latest Obama meet-up. Maybe you can get a job as a junior staffer in some agency or other. CHANGEEEEE!
(Of course, I think the Blessed, Good, Kindly "American People" will elect the Lizard King, so my suggestion may prove worthless). - 5:45 PM
- Ash said...
Sure all decisions are inevitably political but you can constrain those decisions and give them direction via treaty, or, if you will, like the Constitution does in the US.
- ran said...
the Constitution? you mean the paper Shrub and his boss Cheney wipe their asses with daily?
- Brian said...
Boy, that Constitution thing is working real well right now! People sitting in Gitmo for five years, warrantless searches, illegal wars with no declaration of War, etc. etc. Just like it did with the Nissei in 1942, anti-war and civil rights protestors in the 1960s, etc.
Besides, the analogy is flawed. The Constitution theoretically governs a unified State which has monoplized power. There is no enforcing agency for said treaty or the ICC (unlike, say, U.S. Marshalls at Little Rock High School). If the United States (or China, or Russia, or the European Union) wants to ignore the ICC-who is going to enforce the "jurisdiction"? Especially if the real players are being threaetened? - 5:54 PM
- la Rana said...
The ICC was only created a few years ago; is distinct from the ICJ; is pretty meaningless as applied to the US, since we haven't signed the founding treaty; and doesn't have any enforcement power to capture or direct anyone, anywhere, by any means. I think we can conclude that no one here has a fucking clue how the ICC works or even what it is, so let's leave it to one side, eh?
Ash, even that step, which you see as a perfectly reasonable, limited engagement step, is hopelessly mired in complexity and futility. To pull this off you need one of two things: UN Security Council authorization (which you will never, ever, get) or unilateral action by a country with a highly modernized military (in stark violation of international law). So, we are talking about illegal, unilateral intervention. GREAT START!
Now we proceed to logistics. Operation Eagle Claw went just flawlessly, and we tried to do the same thing in Somolia once, but all we got was a lousy movie. Most likely, based on real, not Hollywood examples, a lot of people will be killed.
Even if it works, now what? You have international actors using force in violation of article 2(4) of the UN Charter, with no repercussions or system to control them in any way (meanwhile actually encouraging this activity) and almost nothing has changed in Sudan. Read my earlier post and tell me that carrying out 2 warrants will have any appreciable effect on anything.
In short, all you have to do is think about it to realize how stupid this is. No political allegiance required. No consciousness-raising needed. Just think about it. - 5:57 PM
- Leonard said...
To relate several of the posters' points to the rape analogy.
It is not so much the "complexity" of the individual rape as versus rape&genocide where the analogy breaks, although it is broken there, too, as per IOZ's original post. But the analogy is much more broken when relating "you", an individual, reacting to a crime, to "us", a state, reacting to a crime. You -- ash, or whomever -- can predict pretty well what you would do. You will not have your will captured by, say, the Pentagon. Your right arm will not start doing things of its own accord, the way Blackwater does. You will not be tempted to use cluster bombs against civilians.
However, "we", the state, are not you. You are not the Pentagon, and you cannot control it. You are not Blackwater, and you cannot control them, either. And your will is not the will animating the USA in Iraq, or as it might be in Sudan.
The state is nothing as simplistic as a human being. (And, you know, even individual humans are really not so simple.) To believe that it will act as you think it ought to act risibly untrue.
Ash, this is what people are trying to suggest to you vis-a-vis Iraq. The state is out there acting. You, I hope, would have act differently than it is acting. And yet... it moves. - 5:59 PM
- Anonymous said...
Msr. IOZ,
Now look at what you've gone and done - created a clusterfuck! (or is this a gangbang?)
How the heck did rape get introduced to this discussion in the first place??
People, people, people!
Let's try a different tact: All those in favor of intervention by the the United Nations (the Blue Helmets for you sports fans) raise your hands.
- Scats said...
did i understand that correctly? were you saying Bushite crimes are not ICC-worthy?
That may be true as a statement of legal fact. I'm just curious as to what lets them off the hook, since they would appear to be bigger criminals. What category of criminal acts does aggressive war not rise to the level of? - 6:13 PM
- Brian said...
Leonard: No need to involve the UN.
We have our very own source of "peacekeepers."
I grew up in the heart of AOG (Amish Occupied Government). - 6:14 PM
- cb said...
a) In general, any analogy which casts you as the damsel-saving-knight and your opponents as rape voyeurs should probably be rethought.
b) Leonard got here before me, but I'm saying it anyway. The difference in complexity alone makes the analogy worthless (I could as easily say: "If I encountered two teenagers fighting, I'd try to pull them apart, so I don't understand why we don't do that with the Sunnis and Shiites") but it's worthless on a whole different level too. YOU are not breaking up the fight/stopping the assault/giving the flowers to the kittens. No, instead you are calling up your heavily-armed, usually-drunk, schizoid uncle and telling him to take care of the situation. And once he starts in with his solution, there's no telling when he'll stop listening to you and start listening to the voices in his head. Every OTHER time you've let that idiot out of the attic, he shoots up the main street, kills a whole bunch of people, and winds up passed out in a gutter naked. But THIS time will be different. - 6:51 PM
- Mr.Fundamental said...
ladies, gents, whatnots,
I may have, and we all have, at some points in time, fallen for the idea that blogging somehow affects things in the real world. this ain't no gang-bang, that's fo shizzle. this has all the markings of a circle-jerk. a gang-bang would require a group of someones doing something real to someone else. blogging does not obtain this. arguing in comments does not obtain this.
it may be fun, but it is pointless.
when attempting to get someone other than the usual suspects and the occasional passerby to listen to, or in this case, read and understand, what you are trying to articulate and convey, is it best to club them over the head? or softsoap them and let them come to realize your errors after they've left and forgotten your url? butter em up, is what I say. if they're tripping, help them up. attacking your keyboard is only going to stress your fingertips.
god knows I have failed at this time and time again.
at any rate, good work Monsieur.
oh, and just one thing...who can I hire to protect me from the benevolent-minded, wishful thinkers like ash at the ICC? - 7:23 PM
- Ian said...
If I ever witnessed a mugging, you'd better believe I'd punch some people in the neck. If I hit enough people, I can pretty much guarantee that one of them will prove to be the perpetrator.
- Montag said...
if i came home and found someone harming my family, i would kill them.
though i don't trust the state to implement the death penalty justly.
weird, huh? - 7:50 PM
- stephanie g said...
Unless you guys have a really dry sense of humor no one here has used the word risible correctly.
- la Rana said...
Fundamental, I recommend turning your argument inward. I don't often chide IOZ for regularly and continually espousing analyses and opinions that he also portends will have no effect whatsoever, but commenting to that effect is too ironic to let pass.
- Anonymous said...
This ain't the real world??
Uh oh....
What IOZ said: "If we wish to incrementally improve lives around the world, we can buy and sell with them on fair and equitable terms, and we can open our borders."
Word. - 8:13 PM
- The Promiscuous Reader said...
et tu, stephanie? According to Merriam-Webster online,
2: arousing or provoking laughter; especially : laughable
I believe it was this meaning that the person who said that American excuses for aggression were risible. That's how I took it anyway.
I had no idea what sex ash was/is, and it doesn't really matter. But if you were sauntering along through the blogosphere and saw a young person of indeterminate sex being "gang-banged" by a bunch of netizens, and all you had was your level-9 morphing spell, what would you do?
yet another anonymous: "How the heck did rape get introduced to this discussion in the first place??" Erm, I believe that was ash's analogy to start with, which has been shown up rather nicely. - 8:15 PM
- Brian said...
Ah, Mr. fundamental-All is vanity. We are but dust in the wind. Nothing matters in the long run! :)
Arguing on the net is indeed useless, but plenty fun. - 8:27 PM
- Mr.Fundamental said...
um. blog?
if you're going to dance in comments, you might as well pirouette.
allow me my crazy, yo! - 8:50 PM
- Mr.Fundamental said...
I've spent the better part of the past year and a half learning the intricacies and inner workings and politics of my new firm. I'm not even close to an expert, nor anywhere close to the top, and even there they're still learning the intricacies at their level. so I can navigate and not get fired, big deal. the one caveat is, we're freaking engineers, so our social skill and awareness is that of a stone. monkeys are more evolved socially. dolphins, even.
so you mean to tell me that the ICC has experience with and the intimate knowledge of the inner workings, politics, culture and history, of any place on Earth, and is able to set up and implement a system of justice that will be both fair and equitable and all that good jazz, to not only the involved parties, but also on some level, satisfactory to your own innate sense of justice, from which this entire argument sprouts.
excuse me while I try not to laugh. excuse me while I hire someone to protect me from the ICC. - 9:36 PM
- ShatteredMonocle said...
my beard is slightly longer...still wearing the same sweatpants.
thanks again IOZ - 10:54 PM
- paolaccio said...
Mr. Fun: ian and montag like totally have your back.
- Anonymous said...
55 fucking comments and nobody made the obvious point?! You DON'T have a duty to step in and stop your neighbor from beating his wife, you DON'T have a duty to stop a mugger from assaulting his victim.
At least in the U.S. there is no legal duty, and to extrapolate some unarticulated moral duty to find some national imperative to intervene is a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
- TGGP said...
I like how John T. Kennedy and John Lopez sum it up. No objections to stopping a mugging, plenty to worldwide hegemony.
- almostinfamous said...
The answer to the titular question is obviously Mr. Rogers.
- Anonymous said...
58 f'ing comments - and counting!
Must be some kind of personal best for the kindly Monsieur!
Perhaps therein lies a new strategy?
(Post less/comment more, nez pas?)
YF: It's your Christian duty. Goddammit.
(Leave it to Congress, the Courts and the lawyers, and soon it WILL be your "legal duty" ma man.)
- la Rana said...
YF, sometimes I wonder if you play dumb on purpose. In the U.S. there is no legal duty, as you wrote, whereas in some other countries (e.g. Germany) there is. But unless you wish to conflate legal duties with morality, You have abso-fucking-lutely no point.
- Anonymous said...
I think there's a compelling, but ultimately unconvincing case for a moral duty to act.
Knowledge of a crime doesn't compel a moral actor to stop it, we're not fucking superheroes.
- romerocker said...
YF = Mr. Rogers on crack.
- la Rana said...
If you put a disclaimer below your initials, like "I don't believe in empathy, reciprocity, or assisting anyone in anyway that does not at least tangentially benefit myself," it would be much easier for the rest of us to sort out the arguments from the bullshit.
- Anonymous said...
As long as you put a disclaimer below your comments like "I will disclaim any position, including those I personally support, if it allows me to be disagreeable and controversial on the internet."
I'd buy your criticism a lot more if I wasn't 100% certain that you don't buy an individual's duty to act any more than I do. Why you would engage in 60+ comments of bullshit over whether this (non-existent) duty can be extrapolated to a national level when you deny the central fucking premise of a duty to act. . . confuses me.
- Ash said...
holy shit batman this place is crawling with superhero cyberwarrior intellectuals with a direct line to the TRUTH.
Lets set aside the little analogy of individual moral action and take a look at groups of individuals acting.
Many of you seem to be a tad upset, disagree with the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. Why? There is oil there, we need the shit, so we take it. It wasn't me that took it so I have no moral problem. I can bitch that the leadership mucked it up as evidenced by how much it costs to fill up my fuckin' SUV but morally, heck, no problem. Right?
Or do you disagree and think that invading and occupying Iraq for that black gold is a problem? If so, what to do? You've tossed out any notion of justice by abrogating the moral obligations of groups (States) acting so, what is the prescriptive? Hope the Chinese build their military large enough to counterbalance our empire? Or maybe consider another means of adjudicating competing interests then might?
Just askin' the brilliant cyperwarriors at his fine establishment for advice in this issue... - 10:59 AM
- Montag said...
If I may,
Ash: Or do you disagree and think that invading and occupying Iraq for that black gold is a problem? If so, what to do? ... Or maybe consider another means of adjudicating competing interests then might?
IOZ: we can buy and sell with them on fair and equitable terms, and we can reopen our borders.
that is, buying and selling black gold on fair and equitable terms would be one alternative to invasion and occupation. but it will cost us more at the pump doing it that way. and that's not good for business. see how morality doesn't even come into it there? - 11:19 AM
- IOZ said...
Actually it will/would cost less. Our efforts to "secure" unrestricted supply have been the principle (recent) factor in its dramatic rise in price.
- Ash said...
Say the Iranians invade and occupy Saudi Arabia and sell the oil exclusively to China. No problem? Sit on our hands buying and selling where we see fit? - 11:35 AM
- Montag said...
i don't honestly know the truth, but wasn't the fear of [those who started the war,] that in a fair market, competition for declining and increasingly difficult to extract oil supplies, on an equal playing field with Russia, China and India would compromise our ability to contain prices?
- Montag said...
no fair, you just nixed my "fair and equitable terms"! - 11:49 AM
- Ash said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- Ash said...
My main point through the last two days of arguing is that we live in a highly connected world and we should adopt methods of conflict resolution (resolving competing interests) with a legal system as opposed to 'might makes right'. Sometimes legal systems require that violence be used to force conformity.
- Anonymous said...
- almostinfamous said...
...we should adopt methods of conflict resolution (resolving competing interests) with a legal system as opposed to 'might makes right'. Sometimes legal systems require that violence be used to force conformity.
do you honestly not see that you are arguing for position A or position A ?
please explain to me the difference between 'might makes right' and 'occasional violence used to force conformity' as it appears to you - 12:07 PM
- almostinfamous said...
fuck. sorry for the double post and for this apology as well.
deletion of one of the above, and maybe this one as well, at the discretion of IOZ.
thanks - 12:08 PM
- Ash said...
you should be able to delete it by clicking on the garbage can below your posts.
The difference is that you are placing the 'might' which makes the 'right' at the direction of the judicial system as opposed to whomever amasses the most might. We've chosen this method, this 'rule of law' here in the US. There has been an attempt to form a basis for international law but it has been weak. If there is no power to exercise a warrant of arrest the warrant is useless. - 12:15 PM
- Brian said...
My main point through the last two days of arguing is that we live in a highly connected world and we should adopt methods of conflict resolution (resolving competing interests) with a legal system as opposed to 'might makes right'. Sometimes legal systems require that violence be used to force conformity.
And, our (or at least my) response to this argument is 1. Such a system has never been established and probably never can be established; 2. Such a system would in no way to serve to constrain the hegemons or major players in pursuing their interests, thus 3. Your proposed "legal" system is hence useless and pointless.
As for your broader principle of getting access to "our" oil through the war...Oil is a fungible good that flows around in reasonably free markets. China and India are developing access to oil for their economies through commercial contracts that benefit both parties. We have spent three trillion dollars killed or displaced a million people and have bankrupted the nation. Why do you even assume in any way that said Iraqi war makes any sense at all? Heck, we claim to be promoting the glories of "free markets" yet seem completely unwilling and unable to use said markets. Instead, we try to use force.
Many of the political actors who now make statements about denying the U.S. oil are doing so because we in the past have acted directly and violently against them. Overthrowing governments, interfering in political systems, staging coups, helping hated dictatorships learn more efficient mechanisms of torture. Boy, that has really worked out well for us, no? - 12:22 PM
- IOZ said...
Because of course national systems of justice aren't backed by "whomever amasses the most might." Monopoly on legitimate force much?
The Iranians occupy Saudi Arabia? Seriously? - 12:23 PM
- Ash said...
Hey, Saddam was poised to do just that but we intervened. If we stop intervening maybe Iran won't but Russia might, or China, or...
its just a 'what if'. You are opposed to intervention monsieur, no? - 12:27 PM
- Montag said...
the 'rule of law' here in the US, on the criminal side, is a prison system with incredibly high rates of incarceration, and even includes torture!
on the civil side, might makes right. financial power lords over us all, and when the courts do get one right (or wrong) it's a simple matter for the mighty to adjust the laws accordingly.
this is not to say i disagree that a just and impartial system of conflict resolution wouldn't be better than countries running around going unilateral all over each other, just that for whatever reason (basic human nature?) this is not possible.
The People should question/resist all coercive power structures and tear them down when they become too powerful to serve justice. - 12:27 PM
- Ash said...
BTW, isn't that what Civil Wars are all about? Amassing the most might.
- IOZ said...
"Saddam was poised to do just that but we intervened." Do just what?
Brother, you'd better go sell crazy somewhere else, cause we're all stocked up here. - 12:36 PM
- Ash said...
crazy? Back in Gulf War I, you know, that intervention, when he pounced on that island of democracy Kuwait?
- paolaccio said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- paolaccio said...
Ash, are you saying Saddam was getting ready to invade Saudi Arabia after he invaded Kuwait? If so... you know this how?
- Anonymous said...
Ash, you're a fucking moron. Shut up already.
- Ash said...
One can never know what might have been but given Saddam's penchant for Pan Arabism, his dislike of Saudi Royalty, and if he'd been left alone in Kuwait the prospect of doubling his control to 50% of the worlds known oil reserves just might have provided him with the motivation to give it a shot. - 2:37 PM
- Anonymous said...
88 comments, and counting.
Do I hear a hundred?
C'mon folks, we can do it!
All we have to do is BELIEVE.
Ash: I'm calling you out.
Since your profile's "blocked" I am going to put it to you straight:
Are you or are you not IOZ's alterego?
Jack Kerouac's birthday
p.s. Dr. Death is running for Congress! No shit. Look it up for yerselves over at Huffpost. Groove on.... - 3:09 PM
- TGGP said...
If anyone hasn't read Michael Neumann's "Victory and Recruitment", go do so. If we just wanted to secure the oil, it would have been a lot easier to just do that rather than the entire country. As it is right now, we're getting less oil than when Saddam was in charge. I for one wouldn't care if he had taken over Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, the ungrateful bastards bear more culpability for 9/11 than him anyway and he would have still sold us the oil. What choice to Third World countries with no other industry have? If they wanted to sell exclusively to a smaller group of people (thereby lowering the price they get), oil is fungible and it wouldn't stop us from getting at it. People think that the oil embargo in the 70s showed how much power they hold over us, but the real harm came from Nixon's price controls (it was the much maligned Jimmy Carter who helped clean up a lot of tricky Dick's shit).
I don't believe in empathy, reciprocity, or assisting anyone in anyway that does not at least tangentially benefit myself
I think reciprocity is a pretty good strategy, but other than that I suppose you've got me pegged. - 3:49 PM
- paolaccio said...
One can never know what might have been
How true that is. What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. - 8:20 PM
- TGGP said...
A mind is also a terrible thing to taste.
- Anonymous said...
There are questions of language and of culture, of full and partial loyalties, as well as of full and partial enmities. There are circumstances that will remain opaque to outsiders.
That there is bullshit. "Outsiders" are very good at judging internal politics and history when their goal is securing the oil or other resources of the conquered, putting strongman puppets in charge, fomenting civil war and rebellion, etc.
The reason why we're supposedly bad at judging these things in "humanitarian" interventions is because we're never actually trying to be humanitarian. It looks like we're incompetent humanitarians when in fact we're highly competent butchers. - 9:12 PM
- Anonymous said...
yeah, we did such a great job backing the Shah. . . really read the whole "Iranian oil situation" perfectly.
Seems to me we might have also misread Pakistan, kinda fucked up Cuba too.
- la Rana said...
I dunno, we seem to do a pretty decent job in the short term. The Shah was in power for 25 years, and then there's the Somozas, Suharto, the Saudis. And that's just the "S's".
- a young curmudgeon said...
Excellent post.
It would be a nice start if everyone in would exercise some humbleness. Knowing that you don't even know enough to influence your local circumstances optimally, let alone in foreign and hostile environments. Unfortunately, the prime indicator and coordinator of effective and worthwile activity, profits in a free market, are absent in both politics at home, and interventionist activities abroad. Relying on moral judgement for decision making is a recipe for disaster. Pure American self-interest should be the basis for foreign policy, and pure self-interest would mean a policy of non-interventionism and isolationism with a small government and a strong military to deter enemies.
Limited individual human knowledge requires cautious and humble action, especially in the area of coercion. - 7:03 AM
- Anonymous said...
Well, 95 ain't bad.
Nice, round, non-prime number.
Now back to the "real" world.
Time to read up on Ashley Alexandra Dupre, 22, the new, new thang. - 8:03 AM
- Anonymous said...
Even isolationism and non-intervention is an action that we decided to take that will impact the events in other countries. We don't get to opt out of these decisions, since even the decision to dither and do nothing has consequences.
As I understand it, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, we have three options.
1. We can sit back and not do anything in the face of really horrible shit going down except offer fair trade and open borders after it's all over. PRO: It's easier; CON: horrible shit continues to happen. (IOZ's position?)
2. We can use our military might unilaterally to intervene and try and stop the horrible shit. PRO: Vigilantism is fun!; CON: We'll probably fuck shit up even worse than it was before, and spawn the next generation of international incidents. (Bush's position)
3. We can try to form some sort of international consensus analogous to the rule of law and intervene using a blend of courts, soft power, and military power, depending on what the situation calls for, while simultaneously working for fair relations between nations that minimizes ruthless exploitation. PRO: Drop in human rights violations, most people generally happier; CON: Most likely just Option 2 in disguise, "legitimate coercion" is really just "might makes right", we can't really make it happen, etc. (Ash's position?)
Now, I would agree that past interventions have been pretty fucking disastrous for everybody involved. But that doesn't mean that a just humanitarian intervention is theoretically impossible, it just means its practically improbable. But given the other options available, it probably still worthwhile to work towards doing Option 3. Who knows, maybe eventually it'll work. Until then, we will probably continue to fuck shit up pretty bad, but shit is already fucked up, so we might as well try to make the best of it.
P.S. Like la rana said, most people here don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the ICC. Don't take your frustrations out on something you don't understand. - 8:41 PM
- buermann said...
I for one think the idea of the US serving warrants for an international court it doesn't recognize and has been hellbent on undermining for over a decade is fantastic.
For our next trick, we'll demonstrate that Saddam's plot to invade Saudi Arabia was a hoax and remove all doubt about the necessity of the latest invasion of Iraq to prevent him from evilly fooling us like that again. - 7:30 AM
- Baka Gaijin said...
Dear most recent Anonymous-- Nowhere did IOZ state that we ought to wait for horrible shit to end before opening our borders and engaging in fair trade.
As for your final conclusion, "maybe eventually it will work"-- "shit is already fucked up, so we might as well try to make the best of it"-- yick. You couldn't possibly make a stronger argument for your Option 3 just being Option 2 in disguise than that.
Presto, that's 99... who's gonna make it an even century? - 3:28 PM
- Brian said...
I don't have to fully understand a worthless, powerless exercise in pointless legalism controlled by Euros who are still comepnsating for their guilt in basically destroying much of the world to enrich themselves. I loved being lectured on morality by Europeans.
(Not to deny that they are choosing a far better path than this benighted land of bombs an d torture).
yeah...that's 100! - 12:23 PM


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All Blacks crowned kings of the world
23 Oct 2011
JON CARDINELLI, reporting from Eden Park, watched the All Blacks beat France 8-7 to secure their second World Cup title.
Four million New Zealanders have had to endure 24 long years in between World Cup titles. On Sunday 23 October, they had to endure a further 80 agonising minutes as their beloved All Blacks edged slowly and, at times tentatively, towards the elusive gold.
The energy of a nation was channeled in the New Zealand national anthem, and the All Blacks played their part with a spirited rendition of Kapa o Pango. France responded through Thierry Dusautoir's passionate gesture during the Tricolores' call-to-arms, and through the team's decision to advance towards the hosts while they laid down the traditional challenge.
The message was clear: France would not be intimidated by the All Blacks, their media or the New Zealand people's pre-match assertion that they had no place in this final. Their march on the All Blacks would signify a collective up-yours to all the non-believers, and their efforts in this match would underscore their passion and belief that they could indeed upset the world's top-ranked team.
It was this fiery attitude and physicality that had the All Blacks rattled at stages. Tony Woodcock scored a simple try for the hosts when a smart lineout move opened up the French defence, but Piri Weepu failed to make the conversion. In fact, Weepu would miss all three of his attempts at goal and the All Blacks would miss out on eight points as a result. It was this lack of composure that so nearly cost the hosts the game.
The All Blacks were resolute on defence, but then so were the French. They matched the hosts at the collisions which limited the All Blacks' attacking platform. Morgan Parra stopped Ma'a Nonu from breaching the gain line early in the first half, and paid the price for his bravery. He was able to return to the field for a brief spell but was later pulled when he failed to recover from what was a big knock.
The All Blacks would lose their own flyhalf before the first period was through. Aaron Cruden was caught between two French defenders in the 34th minute, and proceeded to hyper-extend his knee. Suddenly the All Blacks were without Cruden, their third-choice pivot, and looking to Stephen Donald, a player who wasn't even in the country until a couple of weeks previously. If the All Blacks were going to pull this one off, the forgotten man of New Zealand rugby would have to steer them home.
Donald relieved Weepu of the goal-kicking duties and took his first opportunity early in the second half. But the 8-0 deficit did little to dampen the spirits of the French, who continued to clatter into the collisions and breakdowns with masochistic intensity.
They also persisted with their ball-in-hand tactics, and their searing counter-attacks stretched the All Blacks on numerous occasions. It was one such counter-punch that would provide the spark for a massive moment, which Dusautoir took expertly to help close the gap to 8-7.
It was during this time that the All Blacks must have been thinking about the failures of the World Cup teams of yesteryear. Weepu had shown a lack of composure in the first half through his inability to convert three very kickable opportunities, and as the French swelled with confidence, the All Blacks grew frantic.
It was a situation tailor-made for the French, and undoubtedly a worse-case scenario for the hosts.
But as plucky as the French were, they were just as erratic as in previous matches at this tournament. Credit should go to the All Blacks defence, but had France shown more composure and patience with ball-in-hand, they may have taken the lead and inspired some real panic in the New Zealand ranks. Had they converted their own goal-kicking chances, they would have assumed control as the clock wound down.
Dimitri Yachvili missed a penalty attempt early in the second stanza, and Trinh-Duc pushed a long attempt wide in the 65th minute. The replacement flyhalf also made a telling mistake when he overcooked a garryowen late in the game. It marked the end of long spell where France had pinned the hosts deep in their own territory.
It was during the remaining minutes that the All Blacks, spurred on by the thousands of desperate but patriotic Kiwis in the crowd, showed their composure. Through the determined efforts of their forwards and the collective discipline on defence, they were able to douse the French flame.
France swept from side to side for several minutes in hope of milking the penalty that would win them the game, but the All Blacks stood firm. They won the turnover, and attempted to play for time, and when referee Craig Joubert handed them a penalty, it signified the beginning of the end.
The All Blacks won the ensuing lineout and another penalty after mauling the French back, and at this point, Eden Park erupted in celebration. It will not be remembered as the most convincing performance, but it will be remembered as the day the All Blacks ended a 24-year drought and assumed the mantle of undisputed champions of the world.
1,158 Comments
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24 Oct 2011, 16:49 pm@HongKongSlong(HongKongSlong)-1112: Fair point, particularly that around standing out in a team that was clearly unhappy for a large chunk of the year. To be fair, I don't think this has been a standout year for many of the others anyway. Kaino had an immense year ans was a worthy contender. Dursurtoir was a definite stand out yesterday, but not so much in the pool stages i.m.o. Not having seen much 6N this year, not sure of the mans form up north, have to assume it was on the money to get the nomination. Weepu didn't deserve a spot on that list, agree. Pocock will have his chance in the future.
25 Oct 2011, 08:32 am@Black Panther(Black Panther)-1097:
thanks BP…
the ABs are World Champs… Ranked No 1… and indisputably the Best Rugby Team on Earth… The players certainly deserve the accolades for performing so well over such a long period of time… and AB supporters can be very proud and should really celebrate and enjoy your time as champions…
and I'm not just speaking of the last four years… I'm speaking of the last 24 years…
as a Bok supporter despite all the banter, i must honestly say that only once in that time did I expect to beat the ABs and that was at home in the 2009 3N… every other time our teams played each other all i could do was hope we played well enough to maybe beat the ABs… and was very pleased when we did… but never expected it… the ABs have consistently been the best team in the world and ABs supporters could be forgiven for expecting to win…
anyway… i hope sa rugby chooses a good coach and makes the right decisions and that being cast in the role of trying to topple the undisputed Champions of World Rugby every time we play will force a new perspective and mind-set of more humility and striving for excellence and less arrogance and entitlement that pervades our rugby…
i really believe in sa we have the players to be the best rugby team in the world… but we fail to draw all the different aspects of our game together from players, to strategy, to leadership, game plans etc etc…
and to be frank… we can learn from new zealand's single-mindedness… hopefully sa rugby, the new coaches and the players will focus on only one thing from here on out… the NEXT game… nothing can be more important than the NEXT game… no matter what team we're playing
if we forget about peaking and aiming for world cups and do whatever we can to to win the next game… maybe bok rugby will regain the greatness of bygone eras… and the rankings etc will take care of themselves…
BTW… as unpopular as it may be in SA… if it was my choice… i'd hire JK to be our coach… to me no one epitomises the rugby most boks fans would like to see us play any more than him… and even though people say it was 'only japan' i think he has done really well with the and would be great with top players… but it won't happen in a million years…
so we'll see what unfolds over the next few months… but looking forward to the s15 and 4N and knocking the world champs off their pedestal…
25 Oct 2011, 09:14 am@ufo(ufo)-1152:
A very gracious comment, I applaud you.As for JK, he has had two stints at international rugby, both with lesser teams, so it is really hard to gauge how he would make out.
Hansen looks a shoe in to replace Ted, but he will be needing assistants. I suspect that would be his best route to further his coaching career.
25 Oct 2011, 09:30 amthank you brads…
yeah… i know people say JK doesn't have the requisite experience and has coached lesser teams… but few coaches have that top experience before being appointed national coaches…
IMO though… JK has successfully walked the minefield of cultural issues in japan… so should cope with the same issues in sa… and the fact that he got japan to perform as well as they did against the abs… i think… speaks volumes about his ability… so i would be willing to take the chance on him…
and we all know there's is only open way he'd coach and that would be to play running rugby… can you imagine how some of our talented young backs would benefit from from JK's skills and enthusiasm…? i mean how many youngsters practise by sprinting downhill through pine forests having to dodge pine trees and if you jink or sidestep the wrong way are gonna run smack nto a rooted tree trunk…?
anyway… JK would be my fantasy pick… but i'm enough of a realist to know it won't happen…
so will have to wait and see what will happen…
25 Oct 2011, 09:48 amKING OF KINGS
26 Oct 2011, 10:00 am@ mpundulu 1130: excellent analysis. Crockett is very important to the ab's future.
28 Oct 2011, 22:00 pm@ufo(ufo)-1152: Best post I've seen here for a while, thx UFO, its what we feel, and you said it. Its neither arrogance nor ignorance, because as you say, we aim to win each and every test, and we treat it with that unrelenting respect a test match deserves.
Admittedly, at times we have been guilty of underestimating the opposition, and its bitten us on the ***, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, eh
28 Oct 2011, 22:08 pm@Cane 73(Cane 73)-1151: The fact Dusatoir was regularly seen during the RWC as France made the final helped more than you will ever know.
One great game he had
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