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What exactly does a drummer/percussionist do?
The quick answer would be ... we drum. We keep a beat for the band to play to!
In fact, that's the answer I get most often, except from the more accomplished performers with whom I've played, recorded or encountered.
How would someone with more insight answer my original question?
Real-life example #1
At one time, I'd been co-leader of a group that had an upcoming performance, with very limited rehearsal time. I was responsible for the music's quality, instrumentation and, on some of the pieces, the song's arrangement (its length, style, verse and chorus order, chord/key changes, and the creation of the medley of songs).
When musicians play the mallet instruments, timpani, hand percussion, drum set and most other toys in the percussion family, they are considered percussionists. As such, I have a background that also includes music theory. So, I'm able to have conversations with any other instrumentalist regarding notation, chordal structure, interpretation, feel, and other topics outside the realm of someone without this experience. Folks that only pursue drum set typically will not have this background.
In this particular group, I happened to be its drum set player. I've heard that it's rare for a drummer to be able to lead a group from behind the set, while on the band stand performing, or at rehearsals. I was told that was the exact reason why I was put in the co-leader position of this group.
Percussionists don't just drum; we can also be band leaders and music directors.
Don't believe me? Check out the Buddy Rich Big Band. While Buddy was still with us, he pushed his band unrelentingly -- live or during rehearsal.
Real-life example #2
I was having a conversation recently that involved blues music. I mentioned that I enjoy playing it, but I'd been playing it too much as of late.
This same individual had heard snippets of music from an original recording project I'm currently involved with. He mentioned that the parts he listened to, to him, sounded like a cross between Allan Holdsworth and Rush.
High praise, because both of those artists have incredible musicianship and amazing drummers.
I didn't quite know what to say. The comparison caught me a bit off guard (in a good way)!
Further into the convo, he mentioned that blues drumming is typically much simpler than the progressive rock genre I was currently laying down tracks for, and he thought that I'd get bored playing in a blues band with "all of the talent that I have."
Our chat happened to be interrupted at that very spot.
Had our exchange continued, I would have replied that I don't think I would be bored. I'd simply been playing too much blues lately.
Playing the blues requires fine musicianship, and an ability to improvise. A drummer must play complementary rhythms with any soloist. Blues notoriously can and will take off in many unrehearsed directions during live performances, and sometimes while recording!
Because many blues compositions contain solos, a drummer must possess a strong sense of time, and must support the soloist tastefully. Certainly, plenty of "canvass" upon which a drummer can create interesting ideas.
Again, except for the most versed musicians I've been associated with, an underlying current states that a drummer's job is simple: Play a beat. Drummers are "time keepers."
How does that old joke go? "Drummers aren't musicians; we're just folks who play with musicians."
Funny how often that joke is actually reality for many circumstances I've witnessed as a bystander, and have been a part of myself.
Percussionists don't just drum; we're as sensitive to music as any other instrumentalist -- just in ways our musician "brethren" are usually unaware of.
Yes, we drummers have the power to make those soloists sound ... goooooood!
Real-life example #3
I joined an existing band a few months back. This ensemble is not a "super-group." Most outfits aren't. However, it is comprised of good musicians who desire to improve along the way. This is how most bands operate.
Unless you're a super-group named Asia, that is.
At the time of my joining Rock Berlin, they'd just started to pursue original music. Several songs were either started, partially finished, finished (kind of), and maybe a guitar riff or two.
While both my music theory and arranging skills came in handy once again, I also threw on my "composer's hat" and wrote drum parts for the songs, and offered some melody and chord suggestions. I'm currently in the midi-recording phase of this new music.
Recently, our guitarist moved out of state to pursue a job in the medical field. During our going-away dinner, he revealed some interesting thoughts he'd kept about each of us. He is a neuro-psychologist and an incredibly astute dude, so I was a tad worried about what he might say when he got to me!
He said, "With your discipline and pedigree as a musician, the band is much more focused than in the past. That's what you brought to the band, Jim."
This was nice to hear, because I had no way of knowing how these guys operated before my arrival. The others offered they also enjoy the band's direction and practice environment much better now.
I know this, because I specifically asked if this was the case. I had unknowingly changed this group's approach. According to them, this was a huge positive. I'm glad it worked out this way.
Percussionists don't just drum; we can be composers. We approach our craft in as focused a manner as any other instrumentalist would. We simply have different responsibilities to the music.
In many ways, we are the ultimate team players!
What are YOUR thoughts of what drummers/percussionists do? I look forward to reading the comments you post below!
Interested in percussion lessons? Or, just curious about my studio? Please contact me via my studio's Facebook page. You'll find much to explore - including all of my past blog posts. Hit the "like" button to let me know you've visited. Thanks - I appreciate you!
My studio can also be followed on Twitter: @JimKubeDrums.
Liz Wessel
7:01 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
A great read on all of the contributions drummers make to music - you are so blessed with all of your talents!
Jim Kube
7:21 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Liz -
You are always so kind. Thank you for taking the time to read my post yet again!
Heather Asiyanbi
7:31 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
@Jim - my daughter wants to take up drums ... a friend has taught her some basics, enough to join the freshman band as part of their percussion section (as a junior who has played clarinet since 5th grade). I'll share this with her!
Jim Kube
8:20 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Heather -
Thanks for sharing my post with your daughter - I hope she finds encouragement in it!
I taught both of my daughters percussion while they were in the Fall's school band program, and I currently teach many more girl drummers who are on my full time teaching schedule - most are in school band programs throughout the area.
If your daughter would like to further her studies, I hope you'll look me up. I'd love to help her out. My studio's Facebook link is at the bottom of my blog posting.
Whatever path she chooses, best of luck to her :)
Heather Asiyanbi
9:00 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Girls do rule! So nice to know you agree ;) She does want to learn more, and we're hoping to maybe get her started with lessons this summer.
Jim Kube
9:08 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Very nice Heather. Again, whatever direction she goes with lessons, I'm excited for her!
Jim Kube
8:19 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Steve ® -
I can find no fault in your logic :)
Thanks for spreading the truth, brutha!
Jim Price
8:40 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Jim, as longtime musician (guitar) myself, I've heard – and made up – tons of drummer jokes. I'm sure you've heard most of them. But out of my true respect for your craft, I won't tell any. I'll just thank you and your rhythmic kind for providing the essential foundation for music from the dawn of civilization to the latest modern "beats," and there's a reason for calling them that.
OK, one joke, but on me: How do you get the lead guitarist to stop playing?
Put sheet music in front of him.
Jim Kube
8:57 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Jim -
I appreciate the respect you have for the drummer's craft. You are a TRUE MUSICIAN - not JUST a guitarist :)
Hey - I love drummer jokes! I tell them myself ... ha!
BTW - I love the pentatonic scale. Do you ever use it when you solo?
Thanks for commenting, my chordal/melodic brutha!
Jim Kube
8:58 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Charlie Brown -
Awesome joke! :)
Thanks for bestowing it upon us!
Jim Price
9:04 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Jim, I'm LMAO re: "do you ever use the pentatonic scale?..." Only a real musician – even if he's a drummer – would get how subtle a stiletto that is to a guitar player.
(Three chords, five notes, and a cloud of smoke...)
Jim Kube
9:30 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Jim -
"Three chords, five notes, and a cloud of smoke..."
Denise Lockwood
8:45 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
LOL... Jim... I've been taking guitar lessons for almost a year. Mr. Denise bought it for me for Christmas and we decided that we needed a hobby with both of the girls in college now. It's been a blast. Heather has convinced me that I need leather pants...
Jim Price
8:58 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Ms. Denise, you will be greatly rewarded no matter how good you eventually get. Stick with it. And while you don't need leather pants, they certainly can't hurt.
Jim Kube
9:01 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Denise -
Heather is correct ;)
Have fun pursuing the guitar!
Denise Lockwood
9:18 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Lar and I are learning TSO's Christmas Eve in Sarajevo, and we jam on Monday nights... Maybe in about six months I can rock the leather pants... and fringe jacket apparently.
Shelly Schmor
10:19 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
I know you as a drummer work hard, you are uber talented, and I do remember listening to rehearsals at that smelly old "band" house and it would make you crazy when people weren't counting! And anyone that keep all those yahoos in line had to be good! :)
Jim Kube
10:34 pm on Sunday, November 11, 2012
Shelly -
You not only illustrated my point perfectly; my night was just made.
I'll be laughing about your comment for a while!
Much love your way :)
Annie Nominous
12:48 am on Monday, November 12, 2012
An accomplished band instructor and pipe organ player once told me that playing the drum set is akin to the pipe organ because you are using both hands and feet at the same time, each playing their own music/part. I thought that was a real compliment coming from an accomplished pipe organ musician!
Jim Kube
3:16 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Annie "N" -
Your band instructor/pipe organist acquaintance is correct on all levels.
This is the heart of what drummers/percussionists endeavor towards - and it's a tall order!
A good percussion instructor can help the player to see this aspect sooner.
Thank you for your excellent comments!
Kathi Kube
12:53 am on Monday, November 12, 2012
Totally agree with Shelly! And Jim, in all our years together I have always been in awe and very, very proud of your musicianship, discipline, and approach to each and every beat you play. Yes my dear, you rock. But you also swing, samba, and shuffle, too! Love you always! Kat
Jim Kube
3:42 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Kathi -
You are an incredibly loving and supportive wife. Thanks for putting up with all of the "racket" these many years! ;)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts; they have much meaning to me.
Impeach Now
8:19 am on Monday, November 12, 2012
Jim...Great article...as usual...but i have an opinion, and therfore, everyone must stop to hear it!...jk...over the years, i've watched you progress musically and because of that I have also developed an acute awareness of musicianship, prolly not as acute as you, but terminal none the less. Thus, the reason i enjoy all types of music and become critical (to a fault...sorry) of those (especially today with all the electronic rhythms that don't use "real people" to play them) that only listen to one "style" of music, cuz the rest "is lame". But usually, upon further questioning, I find out that their narrow "choice" of music preference has alot to do with much of what you stated in your article...the idea of misconceptions. Back in the 80's when the "rock/metal scene" was becoming huge, I noticed a huge influx of "bands" that relied on presentation only...didn't write their own stuff...were dependent on the help of "professionals" to "create" their spoon fed songs and honestly, i liked it, but today, i can hear it more than ever. This is not to say they didn't have talent or were any less talented, but the culture sort of dictated that progression which kind of killed that whole genre of "arena rock" (for lack of a better label) for me. that is why progressive bands (like Rush, Dream Theater or Tourniquet for example) are always at the top of my playlists. The musicianship of each member shows through in their abilities to play with the band and compliment each other...
Jim Kube
3:54 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Dave -
Thanks for sharing your many observations.
Impeach Now
8:44 am on Monday, November 12, 2012
...this is why my choice of music is a little of everything...that's why i don't have playlists on my ipod...just randomize please...because each specific type of music has its own innate ability to speak to your life as any other. Musicianship, like mechanics, carpenters, etc..have alot in common with perception...they both require an acute awareness of whats happening outside of anything that can be taught...or read in a book...though education always helps because it broadens perceptions in many ways. I have been thoroughly spoiled by having the priviledge to see your talent progress so my perceptions are very different in many ways (and I make no apologies for that) thus, when I listen to any "style" of music, my inclination is to find out "why" it is what it is, beyond the coolness of its "face value" per se. The drumming has always been about adding the extra measure of bringing the band together by adding or placing key rhythms where there may not have been a noticeable change otherwise, like the choice of using a crash instead of a splash cymbal (as an example) for an entrance which can change the dynamic entirely and develop a new "attitude" in the music itself. It's those small things that each hit, chord, fill, pause, etc. will make music exciting for those that "think outside the proverbial box".
Impeach Now
8:45 am on Monday, November 12, 2012
Especially in this digital age of being able to "fix" everything with the few strokes on a keyboard. So, drumming is more than just timekeeping, it's the symbiotic relationship with the music that may or may not bring the song together...
Jim Kube
4:00 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Dave -
A fine conclusion.
Thanks for sharing your heart regarding music/drumming!
11:45 am on Monday, November 12, 2012
Excellent article, Jim. You've done a great job of explaining how the percussionist is so much more than the time-keeper. And I'll add, on a personal note, that your musicianship and your talents as teacher are amazing!!
Jim Kube
4:38 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Lainie -
You are always so kind and gracious in your comments!
Thanks so much for taking the time to read my post yet again.
I'm glad my explanations hit home :)
patchreader 123
1:45 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Love the article!
Besides Buddy Rich and Neal Peart, who else has influenced you/do you like?
One of my current favs is Jason McGerr of Death Cab for Cutie - a great drummer for a great band.
Jim Kube
5:18 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
patchreader 123 -
Thanks for checkin' my story out. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Tito Puente: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZQh4IL7unM
Evelyn Glennie: http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie_shows_how_to_listen.html
Markus Rhoten: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07kcQFFlJJ0&feature=related
Gary Burton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxtr86zmYbk
Vic Firth, Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Tony Williams, Philly Jo Jones, Horacio Hernandez, Steve Gadd, Neil Peart, Peter Criss, Jo Jo Meyer,
Chric McHugh: http://menomoneefalls.patch.com/blog_posts/nuances-of-the-keith-urban-concert
Dave Weckl, Steve Smith, David Garibaldi, Clayton Cameron ...
Thousands more! :)
I don't really have a favorite, per se - I'm an amalgam of my entire body of listening!
The above left impressions on me for various reasons: Stage presence, studio approach, musical phrasing abilities, freakish talent, general technique, approach to world music, creativity, band leader abilities, double bass creativity, professional approach, brush technique - on and on. Anybody I can learn something from. I'm positive I've left important folks out!!
I'm glad that you currently have drummers/musicians that catch you ear!
Jason McGerr IS an awesome drummer :)
Thanks for sharing your musical thoughts and heart, and the links!
patchreader 123
6:45 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
I just realized that I mispelled the name of "The Professor," Neil.
Typed too fast. I'm so ashamed................
Jim Kube
6:52 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
patchreader 123 -
No shame given! Not under my posts!
It's a typo. Welcome to humanity!!
Again - thanks for your great comments :)
Bob McBride
6:11 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
One of my favorite drummers with one of my favorite guitarists and a not-too-shabby bass player....
Jim Kube
6:26 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Bob -
Jeff, Vinnie and Tal.
Well played sir, well played ...
6:53 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Ha ha, my first thought was the answer to the riddle "They hang out with the band"!
Seriously, great article, all good points. As a guy who is focusing heavily on composing and recording original music right now, I know a drummer's input into the composition of music and writing of songs really brings so much to the song.
Hey we should get together and take off in many unrehearsed directions recording some blues sometime,,, after you've taken a break from playing so much blues. I am always up for playing some blues.
Jim Kube
6:57 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
Rob -
I'm almost always up for the blues.
Break's OVER!!
Thanks for your comments, and for your wonderfully heartfelt compositions!
I appreciate you, bro :)
Jim Kube
7:00 pm on Monday, November 12, 2012
BTW - what are your thoughts regarding the drummer you work with on your original tunes?
Jim Kube
6:52 pm on Tuesday, November 13, 2012
Paul -
Thank you, and thanks for the encouragement!
Jim Kube
10:45 pm on Tuesday, November 13, 2012
David writes via Facebook -
I like to think drummers give soul to the music being played. Maybe it's just me but generally, to most music I hear without percussion, I always end up thinking "something's missing". But maybe I'm just biased
Jim Kube
10:54 pm on Tuesday, November 13, 2012
David -
Interesting comment about drummers giving soul to the music.
I agree! :)
The part about songs missing something when it doesn't include percussion - depends on the song.
Too much percussion/adding percussion can also ruin a song. Have to use a "musician's ear" when composing those parts. The overall song MUST be considered, especially if there are vocal tracks in the composition
Thanks for commenting on Facebook, appreciated!
Jim Kube
10:59 pm on Tuesday, November 13, 2012
Bill writes via Facebook -
Very good stuff Jim!
Jim Kube
3:54 pm on Wednesday, November 14, 2012
Bill -
From one drummer/band leader to another - boy, do I appreciate that sentiment coming from one of my peers.
And, you do a wonderful job with your band - sounds great!
Thanks very much for commenting!
Jim Kube
11:13 pm on Tuesday, November 13, 2012
Margaret writes via Facebook -
Nice blog again, Jim!
Jim Kube
11:14 pm on Tuesday, November 13, 2012
Margaret -
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for reading my post. :)
Pete Voorlas
6:34 am on Wednesday, November 14, 2012
My brother in law is Eddie Bayers. He is the third most recorded drummer in history. A studio drummer. When the road bands need stability they bring out a top drummer to lead the way. The last ten years he's done George Strait and Allen Jacksons album drumming. He is married to my sister Lane Brody from Racine. Enjoyed the article.
Bob McBride
6:47 am on Wednesday, November 14, 2012
I'm familiar with your sister. I know she did some work with Thom Bresh, Merle Travis' son - amongst others. Until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware she was from Racine. Thanks for posting.
Jim Kube
4:00 pm on Wednesday, November 14, 2012
Pete -
I'm familiar with Eddie's work. He's an amazing example of what my post is about!
Thank you so much for bringing him up:
Notice how he's reading charts while up on stage :)
Pete Voorlas
7:11 am on Wednesday, November 14, 2012
Besides playing drums at such a level, in the 1960's Eddie played keyboards for Gracy Slick, Paul Cantor and Stevie Winwood. He broke his hand and became a drummer while holding both sticks up. I'm not a drummer but I think I'm explaning it OK. He's a musical genius. Watching him listen to music, you know he is hearing things most of us are not. His ears even seem to move. I'm not bragging, he's the drummer, just thought I'ld share this.
Jim Kube
4:04 pm on Wednesday, November 14, 2012
Pete -
Thanks for sharing these other aspects to Eddie. I was not familiar with his other talents!
Again - awesome example of was my post is about.
Thanks for your enlightening (not bragging at all) contribution to the thread :)
Pete Voorlas
6:01 am on Thursday, November 15, 2012
One last comment, I am a former Marine, the Marine Corp had a close relationship with John Phillip Suza. What I have noticed is the all armys have bands, but drummers go to war! Lane and Eddie did a beautiful song for my infantry company reunion called "Thanks for What You Did". Kind of cool having your deepest feelings put to song by a prolific song writer. Thanks for being kind, I never post.
Jim Kube
3:17 pm on Thursday, November 15, 2012
Pete -
Thank you so much for your service to the country. Thank you for helping secure my freedom!
Very nice sentiments regarding Sousa. He WAS an amazing songwriter!
You're correct - he was gifted in bringing out the emotions of the time.
Pete - please feel free to post here ANY time. You will ONLY encounter kindness from this side of the screen.
Thanks again for you service, courage and ALL of your wonderful comments :)
Mike Dison
5:16 pm on Thursday, November 15, 2012
Drums and the bass player are key brother!!! No matter what type of music you are playing!
Jim Kube
4:55 pm on Monday, November 19, 2012
Mike -
Well said brutha, well said!
Spoken like a true band director ;)
Thanks for commenting, buddy!
Jim Kube
9:22 am on Saturday, November 17, 2012
Sharadha writes via Facebook -
Nice post, jim: I think one of the best concerts the four of us have ever been to had only percussionists, various drums from different parts of the world. Drums make me happy in a way no other instrument can.
Jim Kube
9:48 am on Saturday, November 17, 2012
Sharadha -
Thanks for reading my post.
Interesting how that concert made you feel. You're correct - drums/percussion can affect us in a way no other instrument can - especially if the sounds produced are unexpected, unique, or the drums used are not indigenous to one's country.
Thanks for your comment!


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Exit Interview: Contrary to popular belief, Bolts truly were average Jason O. Watson/US Presswire San Diego QB Philip Rivers certainly didn't enjoy his finest season in 2011, but he turned it on down the stretch. With the 2011 season in the rearview mirror, it's time for NFL.com's annual "Exit Interviews," a chance to review the ups and downs of each team's past season and spin it forward. 2011 in a Nutshell: You earned it, San Diego. Another installment of the Norv face (of frustration) is coming your way, fresh off a giant wave of excitement only mediocre football can bring. Thoughts? Issues? Concerns? Probably many, as fans watched their Chargers ride a six-game losing streak during the middle of the season straight out of the playoff race. The fans deserve better, the talent level does not. Part of the "unfulfilled promise" of this team is based on suspended reality. Contrary to popular belief, the Bolts have the talent of a 7-10 win team, not a 14-win powerhouse. This isn't Marty Ball, and it's not 2006. Call it straight-up mediocrity.What Went Right: Ryan Mathews still gets hurt too much, but he looked very good when he was healthy. Mike Tolbert did a nice job, as well. Frankly, the Chargers should've run the ball more. Mathews averaged 4.9 yards per carry, and yet Turner sometimes still abandoned the run (like during the midseason home loss to the Raiders).Despite all the negative pub, Philip Rivers wasn't nearly as bad in 2011 as fans were led to believe. Yes, he threw 20 picks. But many of those were because Rivers actually takes shots down the field. Not to mention that the inconsistent play of his wide receivers, as well as Antonio Gates being out of shape, greatly hurt him (more on that below). Either way, this team would be playing in Legoland without Rivers under center. He also tore it up when the Chargers got hot late during the season. Over the last five games, Rivers tossed 11 touchdowns to just three interceptions, compiling a 109.3 passer rating.Even with their problems, Vincent Jackson and Antonio Gates were still both productive. Jackson caught 60 balls for 1,106 yards and nine touchdowns, furthering his reputation as one of the league's better big-play receivers (at least when he didn't lose the ball in the lights). Appearing overweight, and slowed by chronic foot troubles, Gates ultimately had a down year by his high standards. Though, most NFL tight ends would do anything for a "down" season of 64 catches, 778 yards and seven touchdowns.What Went Not So Right: Gates' injury woes, which included three missed games, really hampered Rivers. The quarterback's interceptions hurt the defense, and the defense allowing 83 points after those turnovers hurt the team's playoff hopes.Defensive coordinator Greg Manusky was fired right after the season for spearheading a unit that allowed 23.6 points per game. Only two teams (the Lions and Giants) allowed more points per game and still finished with a winning record. San Diego suffered from injuries to Luis Castillo, Shaun Phillips and Bob Sanders (huge surprise!) that covered all three levels of the defense. The secondary really struggled, enabling opposing quarterbacks to post a 92.5 passer rating while giving up 29 touchdowns. Offseason Crystal Ball: So naturally, fire Manusky, and all is solved, right? Meanwhile, Norv Turner and general manager A.J. Smith got a reprieve. Smith's level of popularity with fans and players is similar to that of Barry Bonds. The tenor of fans' excitement that Turner was retained could probably be categorized as "less than delighted." And yet, the players seem to want to play for him. When I spoke to linebacker Takeo Spikes during Super Bowl week, he did not hesitate to fully support Turner's return.Needless to say, this should be both an interesting and integral offseason for the Bolts. It got off to a fast start with the knee-jerk canning of Manusky, and should continue with the expected release of starting tackle Marcus McNeill.How will John Pagano fare as a first-time defensive coordinator in the NFL? We'll find out in September. Who will replace McNeill on the left side? We'll find out much sooner. San Diego might draft a tackle, as well as re-sign Jared Gaither. The big tackle is a free agent, as are Jackson, Tolbert, Castillo, Spikes, center Nick Hardwick, fullback Jacob Hester and nose tackle Antonio Garay, among others.The biggest predicament is what to pay Jackson, who should command big money on the free-agent market. The club could release Castillo or guard Kris Dielman to create more room under the projected salary million cap. San Diego is already estimated to be under the cap by at least $10 million. Cutting Castillo (due nearly $5 million), or even Spikes, would give Smith some room to retool. He also has a decision to make at kicker: Nate Kaeding or the less costly Nick Novak? Team Needs and Draft: Offensive line help, defensive end, secondary and wide receiver. Three starting linebackers are at least 30 years old, so that's another area worth considering. Defensive backs Quentin Jammer and Antoine Cason are average, while youngster Marcus Gilchrist must step up. How about a strong safety to play next to Eric Weddle? These issues make it even more essential to fortify the defensive front. The Chargers must get pressure to mask deficiencies in the defensive backfield.Follow Elliot Harrison on Twitter @Harrison_NFL
Not just the record, but the talent. I, at least, give the guy credit for being one of the few outsiders that realize this team needs a talent transfusion stat!
If all of the pieces and parts are healthy, talent wise our offense is above average and our defense is below average and with the "depth" on the roster the margin for error is very, very slim. I am hoping we can add defensive playmakers in the off-season, particularly someone who can successfully rush the passer. It is looking like they will be able to shore up the offensive line as it appears Dielman and Hardwick will probably be back and I am thinking we will swap Gaither for McNeill. I wouldn't complain if a solid free agent RT showed up. Bottom line: If the offense and defense can add some talent in a couple of key spots, the Chargers should be back in playoff contention. Here's hoping they are!...I just re-upped my season seats.
Or he's just another fan who only understands the shallow stats he can read on a sheet of paper. 1yr ago our defense was top 10 with the same talent pool everyone is ripping to shreds now.
Yes really. We were 2nd in sacks and 10th in points allowed and STs did the defense no favors, if anything they were far better than their rank. And if we could stop anyone on 3rd down probably would have been again this year........but as we don't even attempt to rush the QB on passing downs. It is what it is, players paying for coaches stupidity. Obviously we'll never agree on this, but I hope Pagano can pull his **** together an prove people wrong.
Keep believing that if you like, but it's a load of bull. The Chargers #1 ranked defense was based on yards allowed per game. That stat was obviously skewed by the long runbacks and TDs allowed by the NFL's worst special teams unit. The defense didn't have as many snaps as it would in a normal year, therefore they were fresher and not worn out at the end of games. Most teams rack of yardage (especially on the ground) in the 4th quarter when the defense is tired. The Chargers defense wasn't out on the field long enough to get worn down.
I think you missed my point. I should have clarified .... the ignored member's content was likely predictable. Although that shouldn't be a revelation either.
Dude start paying attention. I never said anything about their #1 YPG rank because I agree it is skewed by the special teams putting the defenses back to the endzone constantly. The PPG rank I gave you includes all special teams points allowed. So if anything its skewing in the negative way, which means our defense was even better than 10th in points allowed if you take out the handfull of special teams TDs we gave up. In the end it averages out, the 2010 Chargers were 2nd in sacks, 4th in 3rd down defense, and 10th in points allowed (the 3 biggest defensive stats). It was a top 10 defense wether you want to admit it or not.
Again, I don't see it.......... and can the dude crap, will you? Believe it or not, when the defense has less field to cover, it's actually harder for the offense to score. I'm not talking about having the ball at the goal line either. Many teams, the Chargers included, have issues scoring TDs in the red zone. When the field is shortened, the defenders are in better position to make a play on the ball. Elite offenses will still score their share of TDs, but average ones will have to settle for more FGs. When the special teams allows long runbacks, the defense comes on the field knowing their backs are against the wall, and they play that way. It's a little different mindset than when the opponent has the ball at their own 20. Less field to defend, and less total snaps played will make the defensive numbers better, not worse.
Talk about over rationalization....dude. And of course incorrect. Your answer only serves to push the point that I have already agreed with, that the yardage stats were skewed because we were playing on short fields with less downs. Its a very simple concept: With their backs to the endzone on every possession the defense should be giving up more points, because opposing offenses don't have to move very far to get in scoring range. They didn't. End of story. If you want to start getting into elite offense vs average offense, fatigue, stamina, roster depth, day or night, home or away, rain or shine etc....then you're working to hard to make your own rationalization.
I love this line- "Smith's level of popularity with fans and players is similar to that of Barry Bonds."
Well then if they are better than their ranking when do we schedule that Lombardi trophy parade downtown?
And he's earned it with a similarly egotistical, arrogant attitude. But I do wonder - would steroids help his drafting ability?
where did this hack of a writer come from? Dude says in one paragraph that Castillo and Dielman are free agents, then in the very next paragraph says they might be cut to save money. He also lists DE as our 2nd biggest need? I wouldn't even put that in the top 10, even if we cut Castillo.
Inclined to think he means "pass rusher" by DE. Doubt strongly he means 3-4 DE which we need depth on but don't need a top draft pick
LOL...... end of story. A football "expert" in your own mind. You're forgetting that when the special teams gives up scores, the defense doesn't take the field at all...... the offense goes back in. And if you have an offense that can sustain drives, then the time of possession is tipped toward the Chargers. The Chargers time of possession in 2010 averaged 6 minutes and 45 seconds more than their opponents. Obviously, that means the defense had to spend less time on the field. And when scores are given up by special teams, there are less points that the defense is responsible for giving up. Both factors that make the defensive stats looks better.
I would say that these are more important, not in any specific order: OT(possibly 2), NT, OLB, ILB, TE, WR(probably 2), SS, CB......Ok, make it 8 positions that are needed more than DE
Then he needs to learn the difference between teams that run a 3-4 and those that run a 4-3 and call out their needs accordingly
Ant your not getting me. I'm saying we were 10th in points allowed including all the return TDs we gave up......thats not bad at all. It means when the opposition didn't score on STs our defense was stout as hell. Not to mention all the big returns that didn't score but still put our backs to the endzone. If we hadn't given up so many big returns...would the opposing team have still scored on the drive? A much smaller chance of that. TOP has nothing to do with this.
I'm not Ant....... but you're right, I don't get you. Obviously, the Chargers defensive stats were more than a little misleading. If the Chargers were as good a team as the stats seemed to indicate, then it would've translated into more wins...... it did not. The defense came up small last year when it came to game changing plays. Sure, they had more sacks than this year, but they didn't come at critical times of the game. The Chargers did not have a dictating defense..... hasn't had one since the Wade Phillips days of Merriman and Williams. Rivers was a turnover machine this year, throwing 20 INT's....... a bunch. Last year, he only threw 13...... that's 7 less. Funny thing, the Chargers turnover differential stat is identical in 2011 and 2010...... minus 7. That statistically better defense last year, only managed 2 more takeaways than this year's crap defense. Probably the biggest stat in determining wins and losses (other than the scoreboard), is the turnover differential. In that critical area, there really isn't much difference between Rivera's group and Manusky's.

subset: commoncrawl


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Surrey hot rodder Steve Wright gets emotional when he talks about buying a derelict 1940 Studebaker coupe drag race car and tracing its history back to a Los Angeles-area high school shop class.
His interest in the car started as a thread on the Hokey-Ass Message Board, known by all hot rodders simply as 'the HAMB.'
Steve had sold his 1955 Chevrolet drag racer and was looking for a historic 1940s gasser. Gasser is a term used in the early days of drag racing to describe an old stripped-down coupe with a huge motor and a straight axle front end for the least amount of weight and the most horsepower to travel a quarter mile from a standing start in the shortest time possible.
Someone on the HAMB had posted a photo of the old Studebaker gasser and was looking for its history. Steve engaged online and became obsessed with the very rough old dragster with the engine missing.
Steve had been intrigued with Studebakers from a young age growing up in North Vancouver with a bullet-nose 1950 model as the family car. He had owned several 1953 models but he couldn't get the mystery of the 1940 Studebaker coupe drag car out of his mind.
His interest increased when he discovered the car was located less than an hour south in Washington state. The owner didn't know any history on the car, having purchased it several years before in Southern California. He had been told by the brother of the former owner, who had died, that the car had once displayed the name Garey high school and may have been raced at Irwindale east of Los Angeles.
He had removed some of the mottled paint to discover gold leaf lettered Advance Speed & Marine but had hit the wall in learning more about the car after three years and was losing interest.
Steve bought the old drag race car with the determination that he would uncover its history. That would be a challenge to the most astute detective. He started with what he knew. He contacted the owner of the speed shop, who told Steve his company had gone out of business in 1975 and he didn't know anything about the car.
Then he travelled to Los Angeles to visit Garey high school in Pomona for direct inquiries. No one there knew anything about the race car.
He leafed through old school yearbooks without success. In the 1966 issue, he discovered the auto mechanics shop teacher had been Royce Hunt. But he had retired years before and no one knew his whereabouts.
When inquiries with a photo of the old car on the Garey high school alumni website came up empty, he posted a request for information on a nearby high school's alumni website. After months without a response, someone posted a clue: "I think this is the car that Royce Hunt had at Garey high."
The man who responded used to work in an auto-parts store patronized by Hunt when he was an auto mechanics instructor. An online search yielded a phone number in Pomona and Steve called.
"I told him I thought I had something that used to belong to him," Steve says. "Royce said 'Oh my god! I looked for the car for 20 years without success and had no idea what had happened to it.' "
Royce had purchased the partly-built race car from its owner in Long Beach, Calif. in 1968. The car became his shop class project and student enthusiasts formed Road Agents Racing. When the car hit the drag strips in Southern California, it was equipped with an experimental 455-cubic-inch Oldsmobile 'elephant' motor producing an estimated 610 horsepower coupled to a beefy turbo 400 automatic transmission and an ultra rare W27 aluminum rear end – all donated by Dale Smith and the Oldsmobile factory racing team.
The car was painted red and named Great Balls O' Fire. The Road Agents became the first National Hot Rod Association sanctioned high school racing team and their car burned up the drag strip, travelling the quarter mile in 10.78 seconds at 210 kilometres per hour. The high point was racing at the 1971 Winternationals, held annually at the Pomona drag strip.
When the Garey high's principal saw a photo of the car in a local newspaper, he ordered that the 'inappropriate' name — Great Balls O' Fire — be taken off the car. The Studebaker A/gas drag racer was subsequently repainted blue with Garey high school lettered on the doors.
Steve and his son Evan visited with Royce Hunt and his wife Vicky in their Rancho Cucamunga home and developed a strong friendship. Last year, they met at the California Hot Rod Reunion at the drag strip in Bakersfield, Calif. Steve had restored the car back to the way it was when it raced complete with a high-horsepower Oldsmobile engine. Five original members of the Road Agents racing team turned up as well.
"Royce had tears in his eyes when he sat in the car and fired up the engine. He was 72 years old and cruising in retirement," Steve says of the time he spent with the car's builder. "But the reunion with the car and all the great memories it brought back really seemed to give him new purpose and spark."
Sadly, Royce Hunt died in October of this year.
"I just feel I found a wonderful friend in Royce and he was a shop teacher who really worked hard to find a way to keep kids in school who otherwise may have dropped out. He had a tremendous impact on their lives."
Steve will keep the car as a tribute to Royce Hunt and his teaching accomplishments. The car has also brought members of the former Road Agents racing team back together.
Steve plans to take the car back to California for another reunion. This time, he is hoping to get most of the former members of the car club together to celebrate a special time in their lives.
(For a link to the HAMB thread, visit www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317447&highlight=old+pomona+pics)
Alyn Edwards is a classic car enthusiast and partner in Peak Communicators, a Vancouver-based public relations company. Contact him at firstname.lastname@example.com


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The United States Professional Tennis Association's World Conference on Tennis will be held Sept. 16-21 at the Hyatt Regency Monterey Hotel & Spa in Monterey, Calif.
The conference, which is the premier educational event for the tennis industry, will feature numerous general sessions, seminars and specialty courses. It also offers all things tennis, from the International Tennis Championships to the nation's largest tennis-only buying show, to industry meetings, awards presentation, parties and more. It is the country's largest tennis gathering with approximately 1,500 attendees expected, including tennis professionals, industry leaders and representatives, manufacturers, wholesalers and media.
USPTA members, their friends and family, nonmember tennis-teaching professionals, industry leaders and media are invited to attend the conference. Sign up early for special pricing and discounts.
More details about the conference, including registration information, are available at www.usptaworldconference.com or by calling USPTA at 800-877-8248.
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Your Wedding VenueCarlingford Heritage Centre is a beautiful, restored medieval church which has retained its original function as a place of assembly. It is the perfect venue for your special day! Wedding ceremonies are very popular here at the Heritage Centre, not a surprise given it's beautiful setting overlooking the old Medieval town of Carlingford and the natural beauty of Carlingford Lough with breath taking views of the Mourne Mountains. |
What we offer...Individual seating for wedding parties up to 150The venue space which includes the use of our Yamaha Grand Piano & Spot Lighting (should either be required). All flowers. chair coverings. candles etc. must be provided by the wedding party but don't worry as we have the contact details for a number of suppliers who have frequently provided their services to happy couples getting married here in the Heritage Centre. If you require a rehearsal we will be delighted to facilitate you, just let us know in advance to ensure the centre is available. Contact details for local service providers are available also e.g. Musicians. |
Important Information Please find links below to the Citizens Advice Bureau which provides all the necessary information on Civil Ceremonies in Ireland and also the HSE (Health Service Executive) with Registrar information and contact details for County Louth. Citizens Information Bureau Here For more information you can call us on +353 (0)42 9373454/888, Email us here or Contact us through our Facebook page Carlingford Heritage Centre For further information on Wedding Receptions here in Carlingford please visit our nearest neighbours who will also be delighted to assist you! The Four Seasons Hotel Carlingford Here Ghan House Here The Carlingford Arms Here Carlingford Sailing Club Here & Carlingford Accommodation Here |


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TheEastSide wrote:Thewestside! I missed you. Where you been? How can this be the 2009 drug report? Its still 2008.
I never said that Albanian criminals are more significant in America then Italian criminals. I've argued that Albanian organized crime surpasses Italian in certain area like Detroit but never in America overall. I've said that they are more prominent in Europe but again, never stated so for America. Just more of your lies and inability to produce a proper argument.
TheEastSide wrote:I never said that Albanian criminals are more significant in America then Italian criminals. I've argued that Albanian organized crime surpasses Italian in certain area like Detroit but never in America overall. I've said that they are more prominent in Europe but again, never stated so for America. Just more of your lies and inability to produce a proper argument.
However, I find it very weird Albanians were not mentioned in that report.. when so many other http://www.usdoj.gov reports do mention them as significant if not top traffickers in areas such as Detroit, Chicago and New York/Jersey. Especially in marijuana and MDMA.
The most I have said is that they are responsible for importing a percentage of middle eastern heroin in America
TheEastSide wrote:They arent involved in importing anything. Besides the cells from IOC that were set up in North America. Even they dont import anything to be mentioned as significant importers. The Italians were mentioned because they distribute narcotics in America. Not for importing it. The importing comes from the Spanish groups as well as some Asians.
I have never claimed them as any more significant then they are. I never said they are big time traffickers in America. I have always stated certain areas and regions when I talked about Albanian criminals in drugs. The most I have said is that they are responsible for importing a percentage of middle eastern heroin in America. That is why I am surprised that they werent mentioned. Again, inability to produce proper arguments is kicking in. If you want to argue with me, at least tell the truth.
TheEastSide wrote:No they dont but you are too ignorant on Albanian mafia matters. You were one with Teekay to say, "Besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?" Most of your knowledge of the Albanian mafia comes from me.
TheEastSide wrote:No you dont. While I spend 90% of my reading on Albanian OC, you spend it on Italian OC. For everyone of my claims, you needed a source. That is how much you know about the Albanian mafia... for the Italians you know exact names and figures. You can tell us about some Italian mobster choking his girlfriend to death but before I came here you didnt even know about Daut Kadriovski, Princ Dobroshi, Agim Gashi, The 15 families, Behgjet Pacolli. You didnt even know about Alex Rudaj. When we first started posting on here. You alongside Teekay were yelling out, besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?? How about the Albanian marijuana trafficking organizations in Canada [The Albanians from Canada that put Rudaj to shame remember?], the Detroit groups [Ermira Hatija and this human smuggling organization that America is charging the defendents $70 million USD], how about Daut Kadriovski. You probably did read about Albanian organized crime before I started to, I dont doubt that. But you dont spend enough time reading it to actually know what it really is. You dont know anything of the Kanun which is pretty much the code the Albanian mafia strictly follows. But you can tell us probably every code the Ndrangheta writes down.
Also, if you have any articles of Australian organized crime, send them over.
TheEastSide wrote:thewestside wrote:http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs31/31379/31379p.pdf
Check out the Drug Trafficking Organizations section in the report.
Thewestside! I missed you. Where you been? How can this be the 2009 drug report? Its still 2008.
TheEastSide wrote:How do you know I didnt read it? I read almost every part that had the word Italian in it. I searched the words Italian in it on the top and read every highlighted part. While you make it seem that the Italians are still significant importers, that is not the case at all. This is why I am always arguing with you. You hype the Italians and downsize everyone else but we have to take you serious because you have a college education. Please. I never said that the Italians werent involved in importing drugs. I just said they are barely importing drugs. And they barely are. Most of that report states them as distributors of drugs not importers. The IOC groups do import but its not even a fraction of what the Colombian and Mexican groups do. Or even the Cubans. You make it seem like I am some biased know it all who only cares about the Albanian mafia. Its not like that. I just dont like it when you downsize everyone else and pump the Italians up. Its obvious your in the Italian favor in every conversation. I mean you spend 95% of your time researching them. You can tell us about specific details like that Madonna guy strangling his girlfriend but you didnt even know who Prince Dobroshi is. You didnt even know Agim Gashi and he was in Italy. But you say you know enough. You know what you want to know, which is barely anything. You read a few summary reports and think you have the Albanian mafia down. Then you spend the rest of the day reading about specifics on the Italians mafia.
They arent involved in importing anything. Besides the cells from IOC that were set up in North America. Even they dont import anything to be mentioned as significant importers. The Italians were mentioned because they distribute narcotics in America. Not for importing it.
TheEastSide wrote:You dont have to to be content because you have no reason to act superior here. I was wrong about the Italians and their drug operations. I did claim that they dont import anything anymore which is obviously not the case. But you make it seem like they are still importing hundreds of kilos a month. The IOC is more active in drug importation then the LCN in America being because they have deeper connections.
I dont know how to have an honest argument? I give a dossier saying the Albanian mafia rules the west and in response you give me a news report saying, "Ndrangheta: Europes leading crime machine". Then the newspaper doesnt even bother explaining how it is or why it is. It just goes off about their cocaine activities. The most that was was a catchy title to catch the readers attention. YOUR the one that has no real argument.
I never claimed the Albanian mafia to be more powerful then the Italian mafia in America. So I dont know what your trying to prove with this report or any of your responses in this thread. The only place I have claimed the Albanians to be more powerful is in Europe and the Middle East.
Did you start with the fruitfly business again?
TheEastSide wrote:Oh wow, your really a capital dcikhead to the limit. You just dont stop. I made statements about the Italians before hands. This article did prove me wrong but not really. The Italians are involved in narcotics in America but you are making it seem like they are where they were. Have you noticed that the Italians were mentioned last everytime they said Colombians, Dominicans, Cubans and Italians. On that map thing where it shows where they are active the Italians are only seen active in about 12-15 cities. Mostly where there are LCN families present. While every other group is active everywhere the Italians are plus alot more. But your making it seem like the Pizza connection is coming back. All in all, the Italians were not mentioned that much throughout the report.
Most of their drug activities are in marijuana and MDMA and to a lesser extent, cocaine and heroin.
No see there is a big difference between something released from the police and a news report that provides no information. Now the Belgian police dossier came from the Police department, and they explained just why the Albanian clans rule the west. The Ndrangheta report only stated for the title that "Ndrangheta is Europe's leading crime machine" only for readers attention. Then it makes no reports or claims of it again below. I mean, it would be different if an official said it and he explained how, but not because its the title of a news article.
Right. Your problem is that you twist my words upside down, and respond to your own version of what I said. In doing so, anyone can think they are honest and straight foward while the other person is hard headed.
I'm not that bright? Well if you actually knew who I was, you would know that I skipped a grade. All in all, school is boring, I get by without lifting a finger. You on the other hand already have a college education and severely lack any insight in your own studies. I dont know if its because your biased or just the typical dumb, idiotic college educated American person.
TheEastSide wrote:Besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?
TheEastSide wrote:The only thing I read about importing was the little sentence that said they are involved in importing from Maritime US POEs. The Italians are visible traffickers of drugs in America but nowhere close to the point in which you see them.
Lol! Idiot! Multiton does not mean what you think it does. It doesnt mean MULTI TONNES!
Keep reading the report. You'll notice on the overview or in another section is says that Italian DTOs traffick in marijuana and MDMA and to a lesser extent cocaine and heroin
Yes whatever you say. There is no talking to you... If I give you an official report and claims for my own claims and assumptions. Im biased and have an agenda. If I quote Cataldo Motta saying that the Albanian mafia PUSHED the Ndrangheta out of prostitution in North Italy, I am a bised idiot with the memory of a fruitfly. The only way I can have creditabilty with you is if I say the Italian mafia controls everything, everywhere. Otherwise, I am a Nazi Nationalist Albanian. I have proved my point of the Albanians in Europe. What you believe is up to you. I know for myself where the Albanian mafia stands in Europe.
I do take responsibility for what I say. But you answer to your own forms of what I say.
TheEastSide wrote:If you compare this NDTA to the 2008 NDTA you will notice that the Italians have increased their activities this year. The existence of IOC is becoming more visible in America. The article also mentions that the LCN is reestablishing their drug networks despite their massive arrests thought out the years.
Also I never knew Asians were really that powerful in drug trafficking in America. According to the report, they out weigh the Colombians and are second to only the Mexicans.
I see you did not reply to me on this thread. Typical. Everytime I call you straight out on your BS, you back away and dont answer.
Egotistical wrote:I see you did not reply to me on this thread. Typical. Everytime I call you straight out on your BS, you back away and dont answer.
That was the first time I heard the word 'multiton'. It must have been a typo. It doesn't show up on the online dictionary or anything. I have Mozilla firefox and it underlines my words in red if I spelled them wrong while I type like Microsoft Word and it is underlining multiton as we speak. The only result for multiton on the internet is that it is a pattern of a certain class. If they really did mean multi-tonnes. It was a typo. If they didn't, it means something else.
I remember the report specifically saying they were involved in marijuana and MDMA and to a lesser extent, cocaine and heroin. Go back and read it, my computer takes forever to load it.
Also, Fred Snelling never said the Rudaj Organization amounted to a sixth family. That was a misquote from the newspapers like New York Times and such. Fred Snellings real quote was "Your used to hearing about the five families, well... this must be the sixth." And like I said over and over, the comment comes from the fact that Rudaj was structured like the mafia families. He had his under bosses, members, associates, enforcers and such and viewed him self as well as portrayed himself as a mafia boss. It wasn't about actual power. It was about the image of the Rudaj Organization. If it was about actual power. They could have called the Asian crime syndicate that was busted at the same time as Rudaj the sixth family because they had more members and were probably more powerful then him.
Okay, let me ask you. Why would I need to have support from people on this board when I have support from officials in Europe? Does my case actually get stronger if lets say the Belgian police didn't support me but Faciulina did? You need to leave this popularity contest.
Lets just leave it like this about the Albanian mafia in Europe. I have a police dossier from Belgium that supports me. What do you have?
I am not having this conversation with you anymore. You accuse me of being stupid and ignorant. I accuse you of the same thing. I accuse you of not reading my sources clearly. You accuse me of pumping up the Albanian mafia's position. You accuse me of cutting out snippets even though I provide you with sources, quotes and reports of officials [which I don't know would be considered snippets] but that is not enough from you. I accuse you of being totally ignorant of the Albanian mafia because you spend your time reading about Madonna strangling his girlfriend.
IGNORING WHAT? OMG LOL! WHAT AM I IGNORING? Give me one source that says the Albanians are not the top organization in Europe. What we both have is information on both groups. We have statements, sources, credits, etc... on both groups but only one of us has an official document saying loud and clear. The Albanian mafia dominates Western Europe. And I think we know that the Albanians are more powerful in Eastern Europe then the Italians. So its only common sense that the Albanians surpass the Italians in Europe. I mean they control heroin. Come on, not to mention their roles in other fields such as prostitution, robberies, car thefts, arms trafficking and human trafficking and legal investments.
Egotistical wrote:Or maybe it was because you had nothing else to say. Look at your responses down low. Probably the worst responses you have made yet.
Go on dictionary.com and type multiton. See what comes up you fcuking moron. The word does not exist. It was a typo.
Okay so I got mixed up and crossed over LCN with IOC. Big deal. You have made mistakes just as big before.
He said, "What we have here might be considered a sixth family." He never said what you are accusing him of saying. Typical dumb westside. The Albanians pushing aside the Italians in America does not stem from Rudaj. It stems from the Albanians presence overall. When you have Albanians rising through partnerships and making their own organizations and go against the Italians. Normal people would think that they are pushing them aside. Even Junior Gotti's bodyguard was Albanian. Top assassins for the LCN are Albanian. High level associates are Albanian. Then you have Albanian groups shutting down their operations and going against them. Something the Chinese, Russians and Blacks never did.
IGNORING WHAT? OMG LOL! WHAT AM I IGNORING? Give me one source that says the Albanians are not the top organization in Europe. What we both have is information on both groups. We have statements, sources, credits, etc... on both groups but only one of us has an official document saying loud and clear. The Albanian mafia dominates Western Europe. And I think we know that the Albanians are more powerful in Eastern Europe then the Italians. So its only common sense that the Albanians surpass the Italians in Europe. I mean they control heroin. Come on, not to mention their roles in other fields such as prostitution, robberies, car thefts, arms trafficking and human trafficking and legal investments.
I bring him up because you know that Denaro stangled his girlfriend but you cant tell me a single thing about Agim Gashi, Aldo Bare, Princ Dobroshi, Behgjet Pacolli, Daut Kadriovski, Naser Dzelijiji, Viktor Hoxha, etc... You cant tell me how the Albanian mafia is set up or operates. You cant tell me any specifics of the Albanian mafia. The only time I have ever heard you give specifics on the Albanian mafia is when you copy and paste what the FBI says about Albanian organized crime in America. Then you accuse me of your so called "tunnel vision".
Egotistical wrote:Multi-tonnes is how it is spelled. I have never heard of multiton. There is no definition for that word on the internet. Go look it up. While the Italians are probably involved in importing multi-tonne loads of cocaine and marijuana into the United States it still doesnt make them significant smugglers. They are behind the Mexicans, Asians, Cubans, Colombians. That article did proove me wrong on the Albanian stance in drug smuggling in America, thats all. But the Italians are right where I always thought they were. The reason they used multi-tonne as a reference to their importation is because they mentioned marijuana with cocaine. The Albanians smuggle multi-tonne loads of cocaine and marijuana into the United States. I can say that. In an RCMP report. Albanians are the only group that are mentioned by specific ethnicity when they were talking about marijuana distribution and transportation. They also mentioned Asians and Caucasian traffickers as well. So do you really think the Albanians are not bringing in more then 1000 pounds into America from Canada? Thats a tonne right there and the Albanians bring in alot more then that if they were mentioned in that report. So if I lump cocaine in with marijuana. I can say that the Albanians are bringing in multi-tonnes of cocaine and marijuana into the United States. You take that one little sentence and think of it how you want to. Your dreaming if you think the Italians are bringing in multi-tonnes of cocaine at one time into the United States. KEEP FCUKING DREAMING FACIULINA #2.
Yes you have. Just the fact that you said I dont think so shows how much of a petty moron you are.
He didnt 'dub them' the sixth family you moron. He said what we have here MIGHT be considered the sixth family. It was early. They didnt know the Rudaj organization membership numbers or anything. They didnt know whether or not Rudaj's organization would have been able to continue operations. He said might. Freaking moron.
I am sure it has happened but we just dont know about it. Why else would a Genovese captain talk about such hate he has towards the Albanian gangsters for being stubborn and unable to negotiate? Alot of Albanian criminals in America work with the LCN. Some even work for. Rudaj was just an example of what would happen if the Italians provoked an Albanian crime group. Generally, the Italians dont do that.
It shows that Albanians are everywhere. They are in the highs and lows of the LCN organizations not to mention most of them are in their own groups through out the United States. Why would the LCN need Albanian assassins and bodyguards? Why dont they have Italian ones? You claim its because of heat and such. But they could use Italians that are outside the LCN right? Wrong. Because most Italian criminals are incapable of such things. The average LCN age is like 60.
The idea is impossible why? The Albanians control heroin. 80% of it coming into Europe in brought by the Albanians. Heroin is twice as profitable as cocaine. So if the Ndrangheta made 50bn last year from bringing in 80% of the cocaine then the Albanians made 100bn from bringing in 80% of the heroin right?
Prostitution, who leads it in Europe?
Arms trafficking? The Russians and Albanians both come before the Italians but there is no clear information for me to say which one of them is more active in the field.
Human trafficking in Europe? Albanians.
Car thefts? Again debatable between the Albanians and Russians but both come way before the Italians.
Robberies? Albanians.
You dont know where the Albanians stand in either places. I had to tell you that the Albanian population in America was not 113,000. Which shows your ignorants to even the simplest things. I had to tell you who Daut Kadrvioski is. I had to tell you about Detroit. I had to tell you about Albanians in Canada. You claim you know of the Albanian mafia but I had to tell you 95% of everything you know about them. The only thing you say about the Albanains is what you copy and paste from the FBI on their Balkan organized crime sections.
Egotistical wrote:I never said they arent involved in smuggling drugs. I said they are no where near as active as they were in the past. Keeping in mind that IOC is responsible for smuggling drugs alot more then LCN. And IOC's activities have grown in the past year so I claimed what was presented from law enforcement at the time. Notice how in the 2007 or 2008 report. The Italians are barely mentioned, both the LCN and IOC.
What the hell are you talking about? Go up several posts and you'll see me typing that I was wrong loud and clear about the Italians stance on drug smuggling in America. Technically I wasent even wrong because up until now, there has been no information claiming them to be even active importers of drugs. Read the 2007-2008 report.
Ah your truely a fcuked up person... honestly. Snelling's comment was, "Your used to hearing about the Five families, well this must be the sixth". Like I said, the comment was more because Rudaj operated like a family. When you have over 30 members and they're acting and calling themselves the sixth family, dealing with the five families and set up like one. You look like a LCN family. Snelling also said, "They hoped that one day... they could become the Sixth Crime Family in New York". But you didnt read that because you were too busy reading about what some Italian mafia boss said to his kid 5 years ago at his baseball game while drinking mountain dew. Can you tell us what he was wearing as well?
First of all, you need to quit calling Rudaj an isolated incident.
It wasent, there isnt any information about other attempts on the LCN but there is.
It hasent been made public because it wasent a whole group going against the higher ends of the LCN crime family. You wont hear about a smaller Albanian group doing this to a soldier in the Genovese crime family. But you would hear if an Albanian group goes against the entire family and wins.
I didnt state it as a fact. But knowing the close relationships AOC and LCN have in America. Its only natural that there have been conflicts between the two.
I never said the Albanians are pushing aside the Italians in America. I claimed they are emerging to be bigger then the LCN in North America. EMERGING! As in going too. Not have. Pushing aside means taking over their rackets which wont happen. they are just giving them competition comparatively by growing their own rackets in New York.
Why would it be an overstatement? Albanians are high level associates, mucle, low level associates, bodyguards, assassins. What more do you want? How would you define everywhere then?
I never denied that the Albanians work with the Italians in Europe. They probably work with the Russians too but I havent seen any big evidence of this but it is only natural that they would. What does that have to do with anything. Legitimate business? Thats what puts them over the Albanians? WOW! The Albanians are just as active in legitimate areas as well. Agim Gashi had entire companies in Austria, Milan, etc... he had lines of beuty parlors and other legitimate interests. And he was just one Albanian trafficker. Look at Behgjet Pacolli, his company laundered heroin money and what now? Its a global company. It operates in Cuba, Russia, Kazakh, Italy, Swizerland, Asia, America. The amount of contruction in Albania is at the same pace as Germany. over 95% of the construction is fueled by organized crime.
What your forgetting is that the drug business comes way before the money stemming from legitimate businesses. The Albanian mafia invests in legitimate businesses just as much as both the Russians or Italians, look at the Bronx for an example or Sao Paulo, Germany which is a sector of Hamburg totally owned by the Albanian mafia, its sort of like Amsterdam, its the ideal place for drugs and prostitution. But when the Albanian mafia is generating over 100bn in heroin money annually, I tend to look at that before legitimate areas of the Albanian mafia.
Well if you stop claiming you know everything even about my own people more then me we can stop arguing. The census that you gacve us, I told you to look at the total number the census came up with. The total population of America came to 232,000,000 according to that census and it stated 70 million as unknown. Is there 113,000 Albanians holding an American passport? Yes. Is there 113,000 Albanians in America period? No. The number is over 500,000. But again, because I proved you wrong, you choose to go nuts and claim what you feel like claiming instead.
Egotistical wrote:He didnt state them as a sixth family are you stupid? Go back and read his comment you fcuking moron! I am not explaing this to you again!
There is but it wasent published on the internet. Not every inch of AOC and LCN is published on the internet.
Initially? Initially as in the start of their criminal career? Or as in the start of their organization? For the most part? For the most part of what? Most Albanian criminals work with other Albanian criminals who work from their Albanian ring leaders.
Well the FBI says otherwise. What group is emerging in the US? The Russians, Italians or Chinese? I have yet to hear of any of them emerging. The Albanian mafia is forming right now. The wave of Albanian immigration to the US started in 1997-1998, much later then in Europe because of the difficulty of getting to America illegally from across an entire ocean and through several countries. Only time will tell if the Albanians emerge to the point of exceeding their criminal counterparts in New York. Neither you or me can predict what will happen.
But we are not comparing GDp's between countries. While the Albanian mafia owns pratically every inch of Albania, their legitimate interest go past Albania, Kosova, Western Macedonia, Southern Montenegro in which the Albanian crime element is the only one caspable of producing businesses, construction, etc... in the areas. What about Greece, Sweden, North Italy, Bulgaria, Germany, Switzerland, the Albanian mafia has legitimate interests in every country they operate in. While Albania may be an extremely poor country, the level of construction there is unbelievable. There must be over $1bn worth of construction just in Albania every year not to mention other parts of Greater Albania.
I never argued who is more involved in legitimate interests because I do not know who is more active between the three groups. That is something only someone as dumb as you would do because you like to claim Italian supremecy over everything. Just out of curiosity how do you know the Albanians are involved in the legitimate fields just as much as the Italians or Russians?
From an article I brought in on another thread. The reporter claimed the Albanian mafia earned 38 billion in 1999 just on drug smuggling while three years later in 2002 they earned 70 billion. Its not 2009, I am trying to be reasonable and say 100bn. If they can increase revenues up by 32 billion in three years, they can increase activities by another 30bn in seven years.
You don't need to explain it to me. You are just trying to explain it away so as not to have to admit that Snelling was wrong. Because if you admit that Snelling's statement was wrong, you also have to admit that the claims about Albanians "pushing aside" the Italians is wrong. But of course we both know you will never do that.
I'm asking for ANYTHING. Any information, be it from the internet, a book, hell even message pigeons will do! Provide ANY information whatsoever that there have been other Albanians besides the Rudaj gang that have taken on the LCN. YOU CANT BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY. So quit trying to pretend there is but it's just not available because we both know you are lying. Once again you are making shit up because your arguments are not based on the facts.
Yes, there are Italian, Russian, and Albanian gangsters that have legitimate interests that extend beyond their borders. But the comparative level between the country's GDP's are indicative of the difference in size and scope between those legitimate interests.
I have never claimed Italian supremacy over everything. Once again, you are making up a false argument and attributing it to me. Albanian organized crime, generally speaking, is not as "evolved" as Italian and Russian organized crime. And that can be said both in Europe and the U.S. While Albanians may have great political and business influence within the rather small and inconsquential country of Albania, elsewhere for the most part their operations are mainly the typical "blue collar," purely criminal rackets.
Oh I see, you read one article that quoted a figure from 2002, and then just took the liberty of adding your own guesses for 2009 to come up with $100 billion and then presented it as fact.
CheGuevara wrote:What Fred Snelling said and what Chris Swecker's division of the FBI said has nothing to do with each other. I think your getting a little light headed in your old age.
That is something that cannot be determined. Knowing the close relationship Albanian organized crime groups have with LCN crime groups in America. There could have easily been small conflicts that would not be put up on the internet. Also, there might even be information on other more minor conflicts between the two sides on the internet. You never know until you know.
This is where your ignorance ruins our arguments. In Albania, 1,000,000 tourists came into the country in 2007. Now lets start with a conservative amount. Let's say 300,000 of them spent 1,000 USD. If they do that, every single dollar will be going into the hands of the Albanian mafia unless they go buy food from some local farmers. If they shop, fill up on gas, rent a hotel suite, use an umbrella at the beach. They are paying the Albanian mafia. Now you know as well as I do, that people wont just spend $1,000 USD on a vacation but even if they low budgeted it and did. They would be giving the Albanian mafia $300,000,000 a year. What also has to be mentioned here is that the people of Albania are paying the Albanian mafia as well. Everytime they do their hair, rent a house, go into a hotel, go into a club, eat at a restaurant, etc... You can imagine the profits anually. But even moreso. You have to keep in mind that the Albanian mafia is based overseas for the most part and it invests into Europe as well. Read about Agim Gashi for example. The guy opened companies in Austria, Italy, Germany, he opened beauty shop lines and other businesses all over the place. You cant just say that Albania is much poorer then Italy so the Italian mafia invests into legal ventures more. Those are two totally different arguments. Who invests more into legal ventures I do not know. There is no clear information on it to give an opinion. The only thing I can state is that the Albanian mafia's legal side should not be taken lightly at all.
So basically what your saying is... you can make assumptions but I cannot? You assumed the Italian mafia has businesses in times square based on the past correct? Well I assumed that if the Albanian mafia increased their revenues in drug trafficking by 32 billion in three short years [1999-2002 when they started gaining hold of European heroin] they could increase it by another 30 billion 7 years after that. Honestly, is that not reasonable?
In the Organized Crime Program, we're conducting operations both at home and overseas. We're particularly going after Balkan and Albanian criminal enterprises, which may already number in the thousands in the U.S. These groups are exceptionally brutal and are forming alliances with La Cosa Nostra families. In some instances they're even challenging them for control. They're involved in murders, bank and ATM burglaries, passport and visa fraud, illegal gambling, weapons and narcotics trafficking, and extortion. To get at the group's base of operations overseas before it becomes entrenched here, we are placing Agents in Eastern Europe to work hand-in-hand with local law enforcement.
First, why the new name? This is your 5th name now. JohnnyRed.....AlbaniaUnited.....TheEastSide.....Egotistical....CheGuevara.
It was you who brought up Chris Swecker. Not me. The topic is Snelling's statement and no matter what version you want to go by, or how much some people try to read into it their own interpretation, it was essentially drawing a parallel to the five New York LCN families by labeling the Rudaj organization as a "sixth family." Time has shown that to be a rather major overstatement.
Exactly, we don't know. So it does no good to go into hypothetical scenarios. A lot of things "could be" or "could have happened" but what holds weight is only the available evidence that can proven. You like to cling to a CNN report that stated the Albanians are "pushing aside" the Italian crime families in the U.S. This claim stemmed from the Rudaj organization. And if such were the case, that the Albanians were pushing the Italians aside, surely there would be other accounts of conflicts between the two groups. But you can't find a single other one besides the Rudaj gang, which is now defunct. In short, it was the typical overstatement that has often been made about any number of groups in previous decades.
Nobody is taking the Albanian mob's legitimate interests lightly. It's just that, if you had any comprehesion of the legitimate interests of the Italians and Russians, you would know the Albanians simply don't compare.
How many times have I explained this to you now? And you still don't get it. I rarely make assumptions. But when I do, I at least make it on some supporting evidence, as well as state that it is my assumption. You routinely make assumptions right and left and state them as fact. In the case here, I made an assumption about a rather small matter - the likely possibility that there were still some mob-owned and/or mob-connected businesses in Times Square based on the fact that there have been for decades. You made your assumption about something much bigger - the multi-billion heroin profits of the Albanians - by which you simply threw in your own figures bases on nothing more than guesswork. And no, that is not reasonable.
"Which may already number in the thousands in the U.S." Also note that it is referring to Balkan and Albanian criminal enterprises. And once again, there are many Balkan groups, including the Albanians. And once again, unless you want to count the exploits of the Rudaj organization as multiple instances, there is only one Albanian group of record that has "challenged" the LCN for control. And that challenge was hardly in a general sense. It involved exactly two Greek gambling clubs in Queens. Well, unless you also want to count John Gotti's old table at Rao's, which we know you do.
CheGuevara wrote:Well if you could stop snitching me out to the admin everytime you have no argument left. I wouldnt have to make a new one. I find it funny though how I get banned while your making threads that have nothing to do with organized crime.
You said, by Snelling being wrong. The CNN article would be wrong. Snelling's comment and what the FBI division under Chris Swecker said are two totally different things. That is what I brought up.
Fair enough. You have your opinion. I have mine.
Okay, the fact that the Albanian mafia increased revenue by 32 billion IN THREE YEARS during their early years of taking over the heroin market should be enough to reasonably predict they could increase another $30bn in 7 years. Its seems you want others to play by rules you make up but dont follow them yourself.
You see this is your problem. I merely copy and paste what the government says when you ask me to repeat something I said by their sources [thousands of members thing] and then for some reason get mad at me for doing so. I am not the one who keeps stating this. The FBI and government are. Have you ever thought that maybe they are talking about other instances?
Also, when they say Albanian and Balkan criminal enterprises. They usually mean Albanian, Kosovar, Macedonian and Montenegrin Albanians. Those three last groups hold Yugoslavian passports. Not Albanian ones. Thats is why the destinction is sometimes made. I just read an article on that. The FBI said sometimes, we dont even know we have arrested Albanians due to the unfamiliarity we have with Albanian names and being as some of them have Slavic last names. Like that human smuggling group from Windsor for example. They arrested over 20 Albanians but they didnt call it an Albanian human trafficking ring because they didnt know they were Albanian. Albanian criminals have been arrested even in Alaska did you know that? But no clear distinction was made on what they were so it just passed by us.
I have never "snitched" you out to anybody. I have never spoken to a single moderator about you. Maybe some people just get sick of your BS. Ever considered that possibility?
OK, I see what you are saying now. Snelling's trying to draw a parallel between the five New York LCN families and the Rudaj organization, as a "sixth family," was a vast overstatement. As for the CNN article (link below) that quotes Swecker, take a closer look. In the heading it says "threatening to displace La Cosa Nostra families." Here, like a number of your articles based in Europe, these statements are purely hypothetical. Completely open-ended. What "could" happen. Not what "will" happen or is "now" happening. "Threatening to displace...." "Prepared to go to war...." Etc. It is important, rather than just taking these statements and running because they sound good, to examine them more closely and see what they are based on and if events afterward prove them to be true. "Threatening to displace" the LCN as the new kingpins of crime is a big statement. Not unlike many statements that have been made about previous groups. And as I've said again and again, if the Albanians really were such a threat, there would be mor supporting evidence of them taking on the LCN specifically or having more of a presence in the U.S. generally.
OK, but is your opinion based more on a real objective look at the evidence at hand or simply wishful thinking?
I follow my own rules. Once again, I rarely make assumptions or go on guesswork, which you do fairly reguarly. But when I do, I state that I am making an assumption. And even then, I only make the assumption based on prior evidence. And, it's usually on a relatively small matter. Just because heroin revenue raised by X number of dollars over a certain time period, and then by Y number of dollars over a second time period, doesn't mean that you can install your own figure of Z number of dollars for a third time period and then present it as a fact. Even you have to see the difference in making an assumption about something relatively simple as there being some mob business in Times Square and throwing your own numbers into the billions of heroin dollars going into the Albanian mob's coffers.
I have to do this because you so often misrepresent and misinterpret what reports, articles, etc. say. In this case, I wanted to point out that the report said "may" be thousands of members. And why did I do this? Because previously you stated as a fact that there "are" thousands of members. And not only that, you didn't specify that the report was referring to all Balkan gruops. You said that there are thousands of Albanian OC members. This is a classic, textbook case of how you read into things what you want and why I have to correct you.
I'm not sure why they differentiated between Albanian and Balkan criminal enterprises since Albania is certainly a Balkan country. The Albanians are certainly the most prominent of the Balkan OC groups in the U.S. but they are a Balkan group nonetheless and are usually referred to as such, along with groups from every other Balkan country.
CheGuevara wrote:How can I be banned for not agreeing with you? Its you and Teekay who keep complaing to have me banned. I am not the one making threads about Albanian criminals ordering goat cheese at Raos. My question is, why havent you been banned yet?
The Albanian OC presence is very big in America. You just have not looked at it hard enough because you generally dont care. The CNN article said they are threatening to replace the Italians as kingpins of organized crime in America. Did they lie? No. Will it happen. That is not known. We just have to sit back and watch what happens. Until then, neither I or you have an argument about this.
But just answer me this. If it wasent for me. Would you know about Albanians in Canada, Ermira Hatija, Daut Kadriovski, The Windsor group, Lulzim Kupi, Detroit?
No. My thinking comes from the fact that I know much more then you about Albanian OC. Alot of people are very ignorant about Albanian OC including you which results in you lowering the stance of the Albanian mafia's position around the world.
I only did this because while I cannot give an exact number. I can assure you that the Albanian mafia increased their drug smuggling operations after 2002. 1999 was the start of things. In Three years they increased revenue up to $32bn. The Albanian mafia has only increased their activities in drug smuggling in both heroin and cocaine especially due to their close link with the Calabrians and the expansion of cocaine into Europe.
I really don't know. Ask the moderators. I do know one thing though, I haven't pissed off a lot of people like you have.
I have a very good understanding of the presence of Albanian organized crime in the U.S. Just as importantly, I have a good understanding of other ethnic gruops that preceded them. And I see no real difference between the Albanians and them. The same predictions were made of other groups as the Albanians now. It wasn't a case of officials or the media intentionally lying. It was simply what they have always done. Overstated the position of the newest crime group on the scene. Once again, my argment rests on historical precedent. Your argument rests on wishful thinking.
I had read about a couple of them before. I'm sure you will continue to bring a number of "specifics" to my (and the board's) attention about Albanian organized crime. But none of it has any bearing on the state of Albanian organized crime in the U.S. in general.
You may know about more specifics but they certainly don't prove your general claims about Albanian organized crime.
Well, until you can find exacty figures, try and forego making up your own.
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That support, which already totals more than $200 million in funding and humanitarian aid, could be increased even more with this announcement.
But would "support" include lifting the arms embargo on Syria, an idea that France supports?
Nuland stuck this week with what the United States has been saying for months: "We are maintaining our current posture of providing non-lethal support and not going beyond that."
The United States is not ready to arm the rebels due to continued concern about extremist elements within their ranks. Other countries, like Qatar, are providing some weapons.
Any recognition of the opposition, however, raises issues with Russia, a crucial player in the Syrian equation. The Russians were invited to participate at the Marrakech meeting but declined, according to the State Department.
Moscow has been highly critical of actions by the Syrian armed opposition, even while expressing support for a political solution. The listing of al-Nusra Front as a foreign terror organization is a step that Moscow could welcome.
U.S. recognition of the opposition could anger Moscow but it also could have a positive effect. Russia has warned that chaos could ensue if al-Assad is deposed. The United States could use this recognition as a signal to Russia that the opposition council is moving toward becoming a viable government should al-Assad leave.
The next steps in dealing with the Syrian opposition leadership depend to a large extent on how that opposition continues to develop.
Nuland pointed to the process of recognizing the opposition in Libya as a template.
Recognition is just part of the process of trying to create a political solution for the Syrian conflict. At the same time, the United States is trying to urge Russia to use its influence with Damascus to help bring about a political solution.


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Western Communications, the parent company of The Bulletin, the Redmond Spokesman and five other newspapers, today announced that it will reduce its number of employees.
The reductions, which will be accomplished through attrition and layoffs, affect less than 10 percent of the company's nearly 400 workers.
"We avoided layoffs for four and half years through tough economic times, and came through a difficult bankruptcy with a solid plan that stabilized the company," said WesCom President and Bulletin Publisher Gordon Black.
The smaller workforce is the direct result of the immediate loss of revenue from foreclosure notices, according to WesCom.
Oregon, like a majority of states, has both judicial and non-judicial foreclosure processes.
The non-judicial process spares the banks and delinquent homeowners the time and expense of a lengthy court-supervised resolution. It also requires notices to be published in a newspaper like The Bulletin.
But new legal and legislative requirements recently caused banks to abandon the non-judicial process and virtually eliminate the foreclosure notices from Oregon's newspapers at this time.
In the case of The Bulletin, the absence of those notices has resulted in hundreds of thousands of dollars in monthly losses, according to Wescom.
"This was a difficult but unavoidable decision, which, ironically, comes at a time when circulation at The Bulletin has continued to grow," Black said.