text:
Have you ever spoken to an unbeliever who knew some of his Bible—just enough to be angry and confused? If so, you probably heard questions (accusations) like these: "What kind of God orders the slaughter of entire cities—women, children, and animals included—without mercy? Why does God allow so much pain, suffering, and evil in the world? How do you reconcile the love of God with the eternal flames of hell?"
So often, the attribute of God that confuses unbelievers most is His love. They can't fathom the depth of God's love in the Incarnation and Crucifixion of Christ. But beyond that, they refuse to see other expressions of God's love, expressions that sometimes escape our notice too. Here's John MacArthur to explain. Click play . . .
Listen to this 10-minute clip:
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Great blog series, Thanks GTY!
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I agree with the blog and God bless.
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I am wonderfully overwhelmed by this series and all the information each has contributed. It has caused me to think about God and His love for me and others that I think I had not considered before.
Thank you all. I love reading this series and then checking out the lessons some of you have mentioned as cross references. I can't believe that I have been chosen by our Lord to be in His family. Even though I don't understand why....why me?...I am thrilled to know I have been chosen by Him and for Him.
I love learning how it all works. He loves me. He pours His love on me and it fills me so that I must return such love.And to know I am one of the elect to exchange such a sweet love, I hardly know how to express it. Not the norm for me. This is why I have not been commenting. I've been drinking it all in.
Thank you GTY! It all just clicked. It all fell into place. Common grace for us all, believers and un believers. But....a deep, unchanging love for all of us that believe and.....LOVE God with all our hearts, souls and minds. Matthew 22:37 I see it, I get it and I believe it and for once in my life, I don't have to analyze it. Thank you Sweet Holy Spirit. I feel like dancing!
That was a nice post Rebecca, I have the other side of the problem. It is very hard for me to understand Gods emotions at all, I understand that Jesus condescended to humanity and gave us an example of love in his life and on the cross. But I don't understand how God could have an enemy, he is all powerful. It seems to me that all emotions are in some way based on a need and God has no needs. I also understand that we don't have the language or understanding to define Gods emotions so we just put them in our little boxes of understanding. When talking about Gods love and other emotions that we describe God as having I can't help but feel that we are learning about how God wants us to act in reference to his "emotions" but not actually learning anything about God which feels untruthful somehow.
God's common grace demonstrates His love for His creation. I never understood this until I learned about common grace. I look at non-believers differently now and see how blessed they truly are by God without even knowing they are blessed. All the more reason for believers to share the Gospel with them and then let God open their eyes. God is good.
Donavan #4,
I think you'll be helped when you realize when we are talking about God's love, we are not talking about an emotion. Love, real love, is not an emotion. Our culture confuses affection (emotion) with love (verb). The Bible does not speak of God "having" love as if it is a substance or emotion. Rather, it speaks of God "loving" meaning a kind if action.
There are times when the Bible assigns emotions to God, but that is a different discussion that when talking about love.
We are commanded love God and neighbor. That is not a command to have emotions for them. That is a command to acts toward them in a particular way.
I agree with every word that Pastor John said in the sound clip. Praise God that He gave John the ability to break down complex theological concepts into structured points that are easy to understand.
I may have heard the answer to my question in the audio; Does God accept us for who we are? That's the question. I'm asking because I heard that comment made in a bible study at my church and I tried to explain that we are unacceptable without God transforming our very nature then making us acceptable. It did not go over very well. I'm in one of the those half traditional half contemporary, well actually 20/80, churches that mainly focus on God's love, as you so aptly stated "For God sooooo loved the world..."
Do you think all this contemporary stuff is just a new name for the charismatic movement?
Thanks again for all the effort you guys put into these blogs and rightly dividing God's word.
You bring up a good question. It comes down by what we mean by "acceptable." No sinner is acceptable in God's eyes. Ever. In order to be acceptable one must be perfect--which only Jesus was/is. At no point does God make a sinner acceptable on his own. A person's acceptability is always the direct result of him being "in Christ," being made righteous because of Christ. A good exercise is to read Ephesians and take note how often Paul says things like "in Christ" or "in Him". Apart from Christ we cannot be acceptable to God.
That said, God takes us as we are. Not because we are acceptable, but because He is rich in mercy and because of the great love with which He loved us (Eph 2:4-5). I tell you, brother, you read Ephesians 1-3 carefully noting who we were, what God has done, and why He did it, and you can't come to any other conclusion that it's all about Him, and not about us.
I wouldn't necessarily tie "this contempoary stuff" with the charismatic movement, though perhaps there is some connection (John MacArthur has stated that we'll never know the true impact of that movement).
Thank you for your answer, about the verb of Gods love that is very helpful.
The idea of the simplicity of God is generally that God has no parts and that he is identical to his attributes like love, hate and such. So with that in mind God is love and God is hate also (of course hate in a righteous sense).
Common grace is also common non grace because yes the blessings fall on everyone in the nice restaurant like John MacArthur says but the bill comes also and it's really expensive. I agree with everything JM says in his sermon but common grace (Gods general love) seems meaningless because Gods general anti-grace is on everyone also. I'm not trying to argue about the idea of Gods love I'm looking for an answer to give the atheists who often ask me questions at work. How does common grace make a difference?
Donavan #11,
There is probably more to it, but my immediate response to how does common grace make a difference? is this:
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)
Whatever else can be said, common grace denies the unbeliever the ability to say, but you never gave me a chance! That applies to the New Yorker who rejects the gospel as well as the infamous pigmy in Africa.
Also, unless you know of a passage I'm not aware of, I don't think it's appropriate to say "God is hate." God's hatred is the direct result of "God is righteous" and "God is just".
This very topic has been weighing heavily on my heart for several weeks. So I am thankful that it is a topic just now. Being influenced by reformed teaching has had it's ups and downs for me. The "up" is the confirmation that God has chosen to love me because He just DID. I did not/do not deserve it, and never will. I KNOW that I am loved in Christ. It is a doctrinal "knowing", as well as at times even tangible... for God is a Person, and made in His image... we both have emotions and show them as we relate. (His are perfect.) The "down" is that I have begun to wonder if God does not love the lost after all... based on the teachings, and the verses that are continually highlighted about being elect. And I have been honest enough to tell God how disappointed I am to be serving a God who really may not love everyone. I had HOPED that He was a God that truly did love the world in His own perfect way.
When I come before God and search His Word, I find that "God so loved the WORLD." And I am baffled why this is not taught and received as truth. Or at least read as many times as the verses that indicate God picks and chooses only. The verses John MacArthur read in the excerpt of this blog are other examples. I want to believe these verses like I have always believed them as a babe in Christ... and yet feel challenged that we must somehow explain them away so that our reformed doctrine "if, then"s line up. Leaving me somewhat confused and frustrated. If God so loved the whole world, that He gave His only begotten Son... then we should never apologize to the world for admitting as much. If he invited the dirtbags to come to the banquet when the chosen would not come... wouldn't that include ALL of us? So the offer of salvation... goes to all. With God's sincere love to back it up. (For is love, Love, if it is not sincere?)
So then, a question: Is the Bible mistranslated, when it comes to God loving the "world"? I am hearing all kinds of explanations of why it does not mean "world"... but when we are to stand on God's truth alone, and not be persuaded by every wind of doctrine... I am not feeling too keen to mishandle His Word, and try to explain away so many verses. ("I stand at the door and knock...") So the word "world" did not really mean world? Then why was it not translated more clearly? If the English translators failed to capture the word/meaning of "slave" (as per John's new book)... could there have been some mis-steps to this concept of "world", or even "election"? (Was the English translation done primarily by reformed believers and their slant?)
If Jesus treated Judas with such amazing kindness as a true friend til the very end... That is proof that He loved/loves sinners intimately. Would not common sense call that an utter waste of God's time... He knowing all things? For Judas was to betray, and weep, and commit suicide- and be lost forever. At least we could agree that the directive to love ALL, as Christ did... is Biblical.
Amen Gabriel, God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4 KJV,But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) Romans 3:5 NASB God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? Romans 3:6 KJV
I just read Q&A #193 Does God Love Whom He Does Not Save?
The question was "Does God Love Whom He Does Not Save?"
I disagreed with a portion of the answer, and it raised a thought/question/possible inconsistency with Pastor John's position. First let me quote the last line that Pastor John wrote, regarding the Rich Young Ruler:
"And so he turned away from the only true Source of the life he thought he was seeking.
That is the last we ever see of this man in the New Testament. As far as the biblical record is concerned, he remained in unbelief. But notice this significant phrase, tucked away in Mark 10:21: "Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him." Here we are explicitly told that Jesus loved an overt, open, non-repentant, non-submissive Christ-rejector. He loved him."
Ok, there's the quote. Here's my comment/question: Jesus loved this man, and the passage has NOTHING to do with common grace. It doesn't say anything about bestowing upon the man earthly blessings. Then what kind of love is this? Why does Jesus love Him? Is it a compassionate desire for the man to be saved?
The passage DOES demonstrate that the Gospel offer was made to this man. And according to the audio clip, this is a loving thing to do... But how can this offer be loving, if the man has no ability to accept the offer - and can only accept it AFTER God regenerates him?
For example, it wouldn't be loving of me to offer a paraplegic man in a wheelchair 1 million dollars if he runs a marathon. That would be cruel! Similarly, it isn't loving to offer a man salvation, but withhold the only means by which he could attain it (God-infused faith and regeneration).
Gabriel #12
In terms of the simplicity of God, one of the descriptions of god is hating, 1Kings 22:8, 2Chr. 18:7, Amos 5:21, Rom. 9:13 God hated Esau, and because God said he hated, that means that he is hate in his his nature just as he is love in his nature, because of the principle of Gods simplicity. Please don't think that in any way this hate is unrighteous it is righteous hate because it comes from the nature of God. Thank you for you wisdom.
OK now to argue, maybe it will help someone who is clouded by tradition more than understanding the truth of the Bible:
The extent of God's love, traditionally God does continue to love people in Hell, so God is loving people that he is burning/torturing for hundreds, thousands, millions, billions... of years. Rob Bell silliness aside, there is no second chances, so when the man said "with friends like that who needs enemies", seems to sum it up. I'm not talking about my Biblical problems with eternal punishing I'm talking about the difference between God loving those in Hell and God hating those in Hell what's the difference? Common grace is as real as common curses, common grace is simply only speaking about one side of the equation, other than not having an excuse, whats the difference between God loving or hating us relating to common grace not our personal relationship with God?
Perhaps the idea of the simplicity of God is incorrect and my argument has no foundation, if so how much love, hate, justice etc. does God have according to his nature?
I love to discuss questions about traditions, please don't think I'm trying to be disrespectful or argue for no reason.
I just went to the website on my iPad and downloaded the app. This is awesome! Thank you so much. Now I have access to GTY's wonderful resources at just a touch. Perfect for devotions, travel, Bible study, countless ways. God's continued blessings on your ministry.
Aurelio #15
Your question is essentially How can God hold sinners responsible for their condition when it can't be altered except by Him.
I understand the question, but to ask it is to demand that God's standard of love and justice fit our fallen human expectations. Jesus offering the gospel to a man unable to respond doesn't seem fair to us. It doesn't sound right.
But keep in mind, God doesn't do a thing because it is fair. He determines what is fair. And if we're talking about what's just, fair, and right, then we all get hell. A better question would be why does Christ save anyone?
God choosing some for salvation and passing over others is not about being fair. It's God demonstrating His grace and glory. Those who object would do well to read and heed Romans 9:19-20. You're familiar with that passage. Paul anticipated your objection to the doctrines of grace, and answered it.
I'm glad you're thinking this through, Aurelio.
By the way, in the audio clip, John explained the type of love Christ demonstrated in Mark 10. He showed compassion through warning and gospel proclamation.
#15 Aurelio
From Sanford
Jesus loved the "rich young ruler" with the love of compassion.
Knowing that the man would not give up all and sell everything he had and follow Him, Jesus loved him with the love of pity.
That's what is meant by the statement "He loved him".
I hope that helps.
Regarding Mark 10:21, Mark does not tell us how or what it meant for Jesus to love that man. Instead, Mark shows us.
Jesus loved him by revealed to the man his sin--the love of money. Jesus loved him by telling him the truth because either the man was dishonest about his righteousness, or self-deceived. Most likely the latter.
Jesus had no trouble letting people know he had compassion on them i.e., Mat.9:36,Mat.14:14,Mat.15:32,Mat.20:34,Mk.5:19, Lk.7:13(not exhaustive of course) I think when our Lord said "love" He meant what He said. What Jane said earlier #13 for some reason reminded me of Ex.20:25, while I know what context the Exodus is meant, somehow it came to mind here.~"If thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it."—Exodus 20:25.KJV When God says He "loves" we better take heed how we try to dismantle love, if that is what He truly meant and not try to make it fit a particular man made doctrine. Calvinism, Arminian or whoever. They were simply fallible men.
thanks for the clarity of your position (which happens to be Grace Community's position, too). I appreciate that you make your views simple to understand...
You made it clear: You believe that God offers salvation to people who are unable to respond. You believe this is loving. You did not object to my illustration about the paraplegic since you apparently believe it is an accurate analogy. I, on the other hand, believe that OUGHT implies CAN. When the Bible says you OUGHT to do something, it implies you CAN do it (of course, we need God's help, strength, illumination, etc to make any movement toward God). I have this belief, not based on emotional desires of what I would like to be the case, but, rather based on my exegesis of Scripture. So this is a clear difference in our theology of God's love (and that's cool, since Paul wrote that their must be differences amongst us in order to manifest the truth - 1Cor. 11).
Without getting into a Calvinism debate, in Romans 9:19-20, Paul quotes A HYPOTHETICAL OBJECTOR ("who resists his will?"). It is not a quote from Paul and I do not believe that Paul even agrees with it. (cross reference Romasn 3:8 and 11:19-20. when Paul agrees with the objector, he says "well said" - yet he doesnt say that in Romans 9).
Sanford, thanks for the point - it helps.
Donovan #16,
I think you need to explain what you mean by the "simplicity of God" because if God is anything, He is not "simple".
Also, can you remind me where it says God is loving people in hell? I'm not sure I would agree with that. I don't think it is valid to say God both hates and loves people in hell. I can't think of any biblical reason to affirm that.
I'm a little suspect of your foundation of God's so-called simplicity. And I also don't think asking "how much" type questions is valid to begin with. I don't think the Bible uses love/hate/justice as if they were measurable substances.
And please, let's not get side-tracked into a discussion on hell.
Aurelio #22,
When the Bible says, "You must be perfect..." does that mean we can?
My last words on this subject to you:
I didn't comment on your paraplegic illustration because it fails to present an accurate picture of how God judges unbelievers. The sinner's inability to come to Christ is not a natural inability, but a moral inability (Jonathan Edwards has a helpful explanation of that in his book The Freedom of the will). God judges the sinner on that basis—his unwillingness to come to Christ—not his inability. I think Gabe's question to you is valid. God demands that you and I keep the 10 commandments (for the sake of illustration, I'll lay aside the argument of whether or not the Mosaic Law is still in effect). Are you able? Then surely God will understand and withhold judgment. Right…? Wrong. How many other illustrations could we employ to challenge your view?
My comfort lies in the fact that the view we're advocating is thoroughly biblical. As Arthur Pink used to say, "No man could have ever invented this doctrine. It goes against the grain of natural man and bristles his pride."
The same Christ who said "No man can come to me unless the Father Who sent Me draws Him," (John 6:44) said "You are unwilling to come to me so that you may have life." (John 6:40) See the tension? It's a tension taught in the Bible, not a system of theology. Therefore, I choose to live with it, glory in it, and teach it.
I'll let John have the last words on this tension with his answer to a gentleman at Grace Community Church on Q&A night. Enjoy.
Now this question is always asked—How to harmonize those two truths—and I answer it typically in as simple a way as I can to help people understand this. Look, we're talking about the eternal God of the universe, okay? And I know we desperately want to reduce Him to a manageable size. We want to figure Him out but we're really unable to do that. Okay? This is the inscrutable mind of God, unattainable, imperceptible beyond our comprehension. How is it that God can condemn sinners to hell because they do not believe the gospel when they have within them no capability to do anything other than reject it? And how at the same time He can hold them responsible for their rejection when He alone is the one who saves them? I don't know how God resolves that, I just know that's exactly what Scripture teaches.
Scripture teaches that the only people who are saved are the ones that God has chosen, that He regenerates, that He awakens, that He gives sight to, that He grants faith and repentance to at the hearing of the gospel. God has to do it all. And yet the sinner is responsible. And so the Bible pleads with the sinner. It proclaims the gospel to the ends of the earth to the sinner and holds the sinner accountable.
I have this belief, not based on emotional desires of what I would like to be the case, but, rather based on my exegesis of Scripture.
So can you provide your exegetical basis for saying that ought implies can?
John 6:63-65
New International Version (NIV)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
A pure reading of this text...in any translation...cannot render anything other than this understanding (unless one twists the passage to fit a presuppositional bent that cannot allow for God's sovereignty in salvation): That Jesus knew fully who would believe and who would not believe as well as who would betray Him. He preached life to ALL of them regardless of His knowledge and demonstrated to his disciples that only the elect...those given by the Father...would respond favorably.
Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 4:6 these words: "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
This is a powerful passage that speaks about the creative power of God in creating light out of darkness and likening that event to the event which brings light and life to a darkened and dead soul...what the bible calls quickening or regeneration.
A.W. Pink writes in regards to this topic: ""For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" (John 5:21). "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63). All the Divine operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. Quickening is His initial work in the elect. It is that supernatural act by which He brings them out of the grave of spiritual death on to resurrection ground. By it He imparts a principle of grace and habit of holiness; it is the communication of the life of God to the soul. It is an act of creation (2 Cor. 5:17). It is a Divine "workmanship" (Eph. 2:10). All of these terms denote an act of Omnipotency. The origination of life is utterly impossible to the creature. He can receive life; he can nourish life; he can use and exert it; but he cannot create life."
Great questions/comments...i do believe I have an exegetical basis for believing this:
First let me say that I don't want to spend a lot of time on these issues, but I was asked to respond. I really am trying to stick to the issue of the extent of God's love.
Yes I believe that OUGHT implies CAN... moral obligation implies moral freedom. The common objection to this is "But Jesus said to be perfect! And that's impossible - thus ought doesn't imply can!"
Let me quote Geisler's reponse to this:
"First of all, when we say "ought implies can" we do not mean that whatever we ought to do we can do by our own strength.... We can't do anything but, as Paul said, '[We] can do all things through Christ who strengthens [us]' (Phil 4:13). Sure, we are told to 'work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling' (Phil 2:12), but only because 'it is God who works in [us] to will and to act according to His good purpose' (Phil 2:13). Hence, 'OUGHT implies CAN' only in the sense that we can by the grace of God. Without His grace we cannot overcome sin.
Second, further evidence that we can do what we ought to do byGod's grace is found in a familiar passage: 'No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he willalso provide a wayout so that you can stand under it' (1Cor.10:13). It couldn't be clearer: God never prescribes anything without providing the way to accomplish it. If we are morally bound, then we must be morally free."
He adds later in the book:
"Furthemore, it is a mistake to view depravity as NECESSITATING sin. Even Augustine...said, 'We are born with the propensity to sin and the necessity to die.' Notice that he did not say we are born with the necessity to sin, but only with the propensity or inclination to sin. Sin in general is inevitable, but each sin in particular is avoidable - by the grace of God. One can aways become a believer, and for a believer there is always a way of escape from sin (1Cor 10:13).
Regarding Arthur Pink's quote... I own his books I like him... but if the standard for judging one's theology to be correct is that it rubs people wrong and "bristles his pride"... well, thats not a good way to judge worldviews, so thus I cast his comment out.
Regarding John 6:44 - i have issues with the way the word "draw" is interpreted, and cross referencing it with John 12:32 makes it clear that it cannot mean irresistable grace on the chosen... but let's not go there, since it is off topic a bit. I read the passage differently that you guys (and James White's "Drawn by the Father" work is wrong in my analysis).
Bringing this back to the topic: The extent of God's love is seen differently depending on what our Biblical interpetations are. I think this is very helpful for many readers out there-do your homework, buy some good books on these issues we are chatting about, listen to debates on this topic.
Count it all joy in the midst of strive.
I was hoping someone could help me with some issues concerning a friend. Well,he has been in and out of Church for 25+ yrs. that I'm aware of. So, when it says nobody can come to the Father... John 6:44 KJV How does one explain that he had any intrest at all in God if he has not truly been regenerated? Is the drawling from the Father just the general call to salvation to anyone who has an ear to hear? It's not the effectual call that brings in the elect? Who will respond without fail? My sheep hear My voice...John 10:27 KJV I know that the soil parable and that the persevering of the saints may or may not be be marks of regeneration. He will then go weeks or months without Church or picking up the Bible, that mixed with alcohol abuse and other obvious ungodly signs of a unredeemed person. Then,he will go to Church for months at a time attend Bible studies etc,. I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: Does this somewhat resemble the Rich young Ruler? Christ presented the Way,Truth& Life and he rejected Him and chose to remain lost? So has the Holy Spirit been compelling him for 25+ yrs. to come and he truly has never choosed the True life, that he is deluded, his conscience seared to the point of being unable to live for Christ in a saving way? Does the fact he still shows intrest in Christ mean he still has hope? Or is this a manifestation of guilt for a wicked,unrepentive life? Thanks to anyone who may help me with this. Also sorry for the long paragraph,I have not yet learned how to type properly on the computer. God bless all.
This is a definition of the Simplicity of God:
In theology, the doctrine of divine simplicity says that God is without parts. The general idea of divine simplicity can be stated in this way: the being of God is identical to the "attributes" of God. In other words, such characteristics as omnipresence, goodness, truth, eternity, etc. are identical to his being.
Gods properties are identical with himself so, for example, God does not have goodness, but simply is goodness.
This is how we say that God is love. And so my problem with saying God has emotions.
Because of this principle no one can say that his love is more central than his sovereignty for instance, God is those things in his essence or nature. Thats also why God doesn't have any amount of love, justice, or any other property attributed to God by the Bible God is those thing so he doesn't have an amount of them. The interesting property is hate, the Bible certainly attributes it to God, I honestly don't know the answer to this.
#29 Aurello
A few questions for you:
1- Does God have the right to determine salvation completely on his own?
(I say yes)
2- How dead are people in trespasses and sins like in Eph 2:1?
(I say totally dead)
3- When God said he loved Jacob and hated his twin Esaw before they were born do you feel that God violated your ought / can argument?
(ought / can ideas are only a convention, I say it doesn't matter)
#32 Keith
What characterize a Christian is growth, gaining, maturity to the image of Christ, I think.
Go to pbministries.org and pull up A.W. Pink. Read all his commentaries on Hebrews. I would give you a specific commentary to read, but I simply can't remember which one in particular talked about the two-fold operations of the Spirit (I am leaning towards Heb 6, though). Calvin heavily influenced Pink, as did John Owen on this subject.
What I find particularly amazing about Pink on this subject of the two-fold operations of the Spirit, or as I call it, the common operations of the Spirit, his understanding of this operation is in total harmony with Jonathan Edwards' thoughts in his book Religious Affections. Just to give a quick summation: Edwards proved from Scripture that for every true act of grace in the heart, Satan has a counterfeit. So this should make us extremely diligent to make our calling and election sure.
On a side note: as much as I have studied in this particular area, I don't believe I have ever heard any theologian say that Satan can counterfeit the love we have for the brethren. This is just a small nuance I picked up on. I have yet to read Sam Storms' book Signs of Life, as I believe it is thematically the same.
"Many" people fall under the common operations of the Spirit, and do taste and partake of the good things in Christ, but sadly fall just shy of a true repentance. But please listen to these men here at GTY. They have much wisdom to add.
God bless,
i wonder too abut Esau, for he rejected and hated his birthright. He married outside of his family even God commanded his family and him not to. God's hate is different than ours. Just thinking..
His mercy and forgiveness is always there it one turns from his ways, right.
Aurelio writes in #22,
Paul quotes A HYPOTHETICAL OBJECTOR ("who resists his will?"). It is not a quote from Paul and I do not believe that Paul even agrees with it. (cross reference Romasn 3:8 and 11:19-20. when Paul agrees with the objector, he says "well said" - yet he doesnt say that in Romans 9).
I don't take Paul's words to his "objector" in Romans 9:19, 20 as him agreeing with him either. I take his words to be a rebuke. Read the remainder of verse 20, into verse 21. BTW, explain what you mean when you state, "It's not a quote from Paul."
I am curious, CAN men do good works to please God and earn salvation?
I don't believe we ever could, hence the reason why we need a divine substitute.
However, in Revelation 20:12, 13, the standard by which God judges the dead are their works. The sentence that is handed down to them is eternal punishment, implying that none ever produced the works necessary to earn their own righteousness.
My question: Will this be fair of God to do? Why or why not? How could the standard of God's judgment be based upon righteous works when these people CANNOT earn perfect righteousness to begin with? Is God requiring from them something they could never do?
Donavan #33,
I don't know if you have access to Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, but he has a good discussion on the Simplicity (he prefers the term "Unity") of God on pages 177-180.
It sounds like you're confusing the attributes of God with the actions of God or the expressions of those attributes.
For example, the Bible nowhere defines "hate" as an attribute of God. Hate is an expression of God's righteousness and justice against sin. Similarly, the Bible does not say "God is a killer," because when God kills, it is an expression of His justice.
Furthermore, it sounds like you may be assuming that every attribute is present and expressed at the same time as every other attribute. In other words, God's expressions of love are at the same time expressions of hate, justice, holiness, wisdom, etc. That is an incorrect way of thinking. God can and does express His attributes singularly. So when God sustains your next breath, you could legitimately say that is an expression of His grace (and perhaps love, but certainly not wrath).
The supreme example of co-mingled expressions is on the cross where God expressed His love for mankind and His hatred of sin. He expressed both grace and wrath in the same act. But not every action of God is an expression of every attribute.
So to sum it up, God's hatred is an extension of His holiness and justice. It in no way contradicts His love or grace.
Back to an earlier question you had about how common grace makes a difference: "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed" (Romans 2:4-5).
What Paul is saying here is that God's kindness (common grace) is meant to lead unbelievers to repentance. Unbelievers should ask the question, "How could a holy and righteous God know what I did last night and not kill me in the night?" Unbelievers should be in awe that they wake up in the morning. But, because of their hard heart, God's kindness serves to actually increase God's wrath toward them in the day of judgment.
An atheist won't like that answer, but then again, if an atheist is asking that question, you're probably wasting your time with them. You should instead ask them, "What evidence would you accept?" That will tell you how interested they really are in the Truth.
Keith #32
You asked: Is the drawing from the Father [John 6:44] just the general call to salvation to anyone who has an ear to hear? Is it the effectual call that brings in the elect?
The drawing Jesus mentioned in John 6:44 is effectual. We know that because in the second half of the verse, Jesus promises to "raise up," or resurrect those whom the Father draws. His reference to "raising up" in verse 44 parallels other verses in that section of John that clearly indicate He's talking about believers (see vv. 39, 40, & 54).
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
In other words, the Son resurrects the one His Father draws. I would liken it to the certainty of God's continuing work in Romans 8:30. Whom God predestines, He calls. Whom He calls, He justifies. Whom He justifies, He glorifies. God is the author and finisher of our faith.
Regarding your friend, the best you or anyone else can do is speculate to what degree the Holy Spirit has been involved in his somewhat sporadic interests in Christ over the past several decades. He needs to be confronted by the certainly of God's Word.
I think 1 John is one of the most powerful and helpful resources to put into the hands of someone exhibiting the qualities of your friend. In First John, the apostle lists three tests for those claiming to be born from above. At the risk of oversimplification, here they are:
The Test of Fellowship: Do you love God and the brethren?
The Test of Orthodoxy: Do you believe in Christ the God-man?
The Test of Obedience: Do you obey the commands of Christ?
Maybe you could offer to study that epistle with your friend, or encourage him to begin reading it on his own as you pray for him. 1 John was the book God used to expose my unbelief as a lost church member.
To add to what Tommy said in #40, the word "draw" in John 6:44 answers the question itself.
It is not a synonym of "woo" (as in, yoohoo! I'm over here!), it is a synonym of "drag" (as in, "they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them in the marketplace," Acts 16:19, same word). It's also used in John 18:10 when Peter "drew" out his sword. It's also used in John 21:6 and verse 11 to speak of "hauling" the nets full of fish.
Perhaps "draw" is not the best translation because it does not have an overt effectual nuance. But the Greek word is inherently effectual even with a little forcefulness (though we should never think of God forcing people against their will. He would never do that. Instead, He changes their will and gives them the gift of faith).
The verb "is" does not set a priority of God's attributes.
Nor can you divorce love from justice...therefore you cannot divorce hate from love...because love hates injustice.
#34 Donovan - in answer to your questions:
1) I agree with you - and God determined that He would save those who respond to the Gospel with the out-stretched hand of faith (which is non-meritorious, cf Romans 4:4). There was NO condition upon God to offer salvation, since none of us deserve it, but there is ONE condition for man to receive it - faith. Humans do not initiate salvation and cannot earn it.
2) People are dead in the sins - of course. Totally dead, yes, in that they cannot earn salvation and do not seek God without His intervention. We are wretched sinners who desire to fulfill our cravings continually. When we are saved, we are transformed. The analogy of us being dead like Lazarus is ridiculous, or that "we were dead at the bottom of the ocean eaten by sharks" which I hear RC Sproul use all the time... True, dead, shark-eaten people cannot accept Christ, but they cannot reject Him, either... so that analogy has got to go!
3) Jacob and Esau in Romans... there are two interpretations of that passage that are better than yours, i think. I tend to think it is a reference to TWO NATIONS, since the passage in Genesis 25:23 that is being referenced clearly states that.... thus, not individual election, but corporate election. Furthermore, the passage from Romans 9:13 is from Malachi, about 1600 years after they lived! This means that God must be saying He "hates" Esau AS A COUNTRY (the Edomites). And furthermore, "hated" really means "loved less" in this passage. Check Genesis 29:30-31 and Luke 14:26 for cross reference.
I'm sure I just opened up a can of worms with all these Calvinists! Hopefully, we can stick to THE EXTENT OF GOD'S LOVE and not get too much into unconditional election and total depravity.... although, the more i think about it, the more i think a proper understanding of these doctrines will impact our view of God's love.
Thanks so much Tommy and Elizabeth for the very helpful advice. Mary, I will read Pink's commentary on Hebrews and I will also, Tommy study 1 John myself then offer to do a verse by verse study with him. Thanks again for all the kindness and fellowship to be found at GTY. I find myself growing and being edified as I read the wisdom of it's participants.
Fred #38
The point I was making about Romans 9:19 is that Paul disagrees with the objector's comment "Who resists His will?" - thus Paul is saying that God's will CAN be resisted (cf. Acts 7:51), thus sinners CAN be blamed (answering the objector's question "Then why does God still blame us?").
In answer to your other question - No work can please God and earn salvation. Salvation comes "By grace through faith..." FAITH IS NOT A WORK according to Romans 4:4-5.
Yes, God is fair in His judgment described in Revelation. They are judged for their sins, and since they didn't receive the antidote that would have purged their sin (names not found in the Book of Life). It's like a man who is bitten by a venemous serpent... He is laying there dying, and a remedy is handed to him... all he has to do is drink it. He has plenty of time to drink and be cured, but he refuses and rationalizes himself to death, never drinking the antidote. What killed the man? Technically, the venom kills his body, since it poisons the man's blood stream and messes up his bodily systems. But on the other side of the coin we can say that the man ultimately died because of his refusal to drink the life-saving drink.
That's probably a cheesy attempt at describing the situation, but I think it accurately describes Biblical truths in a simple way. Bottom line is: God provides a way of escape for all people - so your questions about God's fairness in judgement are now answered. Oh yeah, and people cannot "earn perfect righteousness", but they can have Christ's imputed.
Aurelio #45,
thus Paul is saying that God's will CAN be resisted
The context invalidates this conclusion. You must follow Paul's logic and not merely his silence. The objector might say, "Why does he still find fault, for who resists his will?"
Paul's response is not that people can resist God's will. Paul's response is, who are YOU to question God's justice?
Contrary to your conclusion, Paul's silence and his words mean that Paul agrees that no one can resist God's will, but he vehemently disgrees with impugning God's character because of it.
Paul's next point in v. 20-23ff is God does whatever He wants with whomever He wants, and there is nothing anyone can do or say about it because He is the sovereign Creator. The clay cannot protest the potter.
Your conclusion completely destroys Paul's entire line of argumentation.
Aurelio writes,
How are you getting that conclusion from the text? Moreover, how does you conclusion take in the rest of Paul's comment to this "objector" in verses 20, 21? You seemed to have skipped over them.
so your questions about God's fairness in judgement are now answered. Oh yeah, and people cannot "earn perfect righteousness", but they can have Christ's imputed.
I think you are missing my point. You claimed that "OUGHT" means "CAN." If I am understanding you, you're saying God will never command anyone to do something the CANNOT do. Am I representing you accurately? Hence, if God commands men to be perfectly righteous, they CAN do such a thing, at least as I understand what you are saying. God judges all men according to their works. This implies, at least according to your view of things, that men CAN do good works to earn God's favor. Yet none of them, according to Scripture, CAN do this. I just see an inconsistency with your thinking here.
Moreover, according to your view, they CAN have Christ's righteousness imputed. Fair enough, but what of those men who die never hearing of Christ? There are millions who have lived and died never knowing Jesus even lived, let alone died for their sin, but according to Scripture, they will be judged according to their works. Is God fair being fair in holding them accountable?
I'm confused, on the one hand you're arguing for ought implies can, but on the other hand you quoted Geisler saying that the ability is solely by God's grace.
So are you saying that God's grace must be operative in every unbeliever in order for them to repent? Are you arguing for some kind of universal absolute prevenient grace?
Yes, God is fair in damning them since they COULD HAVE received Christ. If they would have responded to the little light that God provided, He would have revealed more light. But these people dont even respond to the light of revelation or the light of conscience. God placed people in the "boundaries of their habitation" and the era in which they would live on purpose - so that they would "grope for Him and find Him, for He is not far from us..." (Acts 17).
Ought still implies can, since we CAN do all things who strengthens us. If we accept Christ, we can flee sin.
#48 Gabriel,
Eveything good thing is by God's grace! God graces us with the help we need in times of temptation to overcome sin.
God's gracious intervention is absolutely needed for a sinner to repent. A sinner would never repent on his own, without God's help. Sinners reject, or RESIST, the Spirit's wooing. Check Acts 7:51
Even John Piper admits that many scholars believe that Paul rejects the objector's comment in Romans 9:19. He doesnt agree of course, but he grants that it is a scholarly interpetation - see "The Justification of God", pgs. 189-190
I think this blog has made it clear: We cannot speak of the EXTENT of God's love without speaking of the EXTENT of the atoning work of Christ.
Please forgive me in advance, if I am commenting on topic that's been discussed before...still am having much difficulty with comprehending: 1) Man CAN NOT come to God, unless He 1st draws him. 2) Whom He does not draw, will not/can not, come to Him. 3) Those who do not come to Him, are doomed. I know that just because I don't understand a thing, does not mean it doesn't make sense! I feel stuck. Does anyone have a better grasp on how to understand this? Thank you. p.s. if anyone responds, please break it down easily...I'm not of great intellect!
#51 Posted by Aurelio Cortez
"Even John Piper admits that many scholars believe that Paul rejects the objector's comment in Romans 9:19. He doesn't agree of course, but he grants that it is a scholarly interpretation - see "The Justification of God", pgs. 189-190.
Piper does not admit that "many scholars" believe...and I quote from page 189 of Piper's Book..
"But there are a few scholars who do not agree..."
Admitting that a "few scholars" do not agree in an interpretation hardly supports your claims.
Anymore than suggesting that the "scholars" of the Watch Tower Society interpretation of John 1:1 is legitimate because they call themselves "scholars" and believe/agree to it. Attaching the word "scholar" to a propsition does not validate it's claims.
Is it possible that you are illegitimately transfering your theological presuposition on to Roman's 9:19 in the same way you illegitimately transfer your presuposition onto Piper's words?
Your three points sound correct to me, but I'm no scholar. You broke it down very well, i think.
I guess I would add to your second point one thing: John 12:32-33 says
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL people to myself. He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die."
So apparently God draws all people, but some (the reprobate) resist the call of God. Jesus also said in Matthew 20:16 and 22:14:
"For many are called, but few are chosen."
I was not using the "scholars believe" argument to say that I MUST BE correct. That wouldnt even make sense since I used a scholar, John Piper, in my comments, and he doesnt even agree with me on any of this stuff.
Coming out of the Watchtower Society, I completely get your point about how they use the "Scholars Believe" argument. That's a great point.
I agree. that God chooses one to be a nation, Abram was a moon worshiper. God took him out of his father and family to be a nation and be his God.
Jesus commanded the demons to leave the two men from wandering the tombs and told them to proclaim what He done for them.
Jesus as dying on the cross forgave the robber on the cross.
Jesus shone a light on Saul the christian killer to be a witness of Christ and wrote books, Romans, and etc by the Holy Spirit...
Judas the betrayer, was born to have Jesus kill by the chief priests and the Gentiles..
God chooses to save a live or condemn..
I like this quote:
"Jesus did not come merely to make salvation possible, but actually to save His people. He did not come to make redemption possible; He died to redeem His people. He did not come to make propitiation possible; He turned aside God's wrath for each of His elect people forever. He did not come to make reconciliation possible; He actually reconciled to God those whom the Father had given Him. He did not come merely to make atonement for sin possible, but actually to atone for sinners...Christ's work on the cross was not a hypothetical salvation for hypothetical believers, but a real and definite salvation for God's own chosen people.
A redemption that does not redeem, a propitiation that does not propitiate, a reconciliation that does not reconcile, and an atonement that does not atone cannot help anybody. But a redemption that redeems, a propitiation that propitiates, a reconciliation that reconciles, and an atonement that atones reveal a most amazing grace on God's part and draw us to rest in Him and His completed work, rather than our own."
From The Doctrines of Grace: Rediscovering the Evangelical Gospel
By James Boice and Philip Ryken
I think you have done a good job of arguing your position, but the synergist always faulters when it comes to that little bit that man must do or have, in this case its faith. So when I get to heaven I can say, I'm sure happy that at least I had a little faith to let God into my life.
Aurello said:
There was NO condition upon God to offer salvation, since none of us deserve it, but there is ONE condition for man to receive it - faith. Humans do not initiate salvation and cannot earn it.
To quote a great book on Calvinism THE HISTORY AND THEOLOGY OF CALVINISM.
How does God elect unto salvation? The answer revolves around two key doctrines of Calvinism: absolute sovereignty and free grace. In a nutshell, election is solely by sovereign grace.
He chose us Eph. 1:4. First, God did the choosing, not Man.
In election, God is active and Man is passive. All non-Reformed views reverse this order.
If I am correct I understand Aurello as saying there is ONE condition, faith. That is ONE condition that puts man in control and not God.
Gabriel #39
I just bought Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology It's great, thank you. Because of this idea of Gods "Unity" I have been confused about even great preachers speaking about Gods emotions because technically that's an incorrect way to describe God, I know its quibbling but still true.
An attribute is a characteristic, God in many place in the Bible like 1Kings 22:8 when God says he hates in that text the Hebrew word "sane" means hate just as we would think of it. In that context the description of Gods "feeling" is hate. But I don't see a problem with God having an attribute like hate that some of us perceive as negative because it is righteous when God does it, but then again I think death and killing before the fall of Adam was righteous also (Hi Fred).
Thanks again Gabriel
Back to the question at hand
I don't want to talk about Hell but I would like to know peoples thoughts on the question, Does God still love people in Hell. Most people I've read say he does. If he doesn't then when does he stop loving them? If he does then isn't that a conflict because of the separation factor? Understand I'm really just asking about the extent or not extent of Gods love.
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Farewell Trout House. Hola, Hola!
After twenty plus years in Sunriver, The Trout House Restaurant, overlooking the Deschutes River, has finally closed up shop. A favorite among locals and visitors alike, The Trout House will certainly be missed.
However, as we say farewell to an old friend we welcome a new one to the Sunriver community - Hola! Peruvian and Mexican restaurant opened for business on Monday in the old Trout House building. Hola! will be open every day for lunch and dinner (and delicious margheritas) and may soon be open for breakfast.
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Wonderful pictures. Those are making my mouth watery!A question; With the high amount of water you use, how stable and pliable is the dough when you work with it/stretch it?From personal experience, if I use more than 50% water (in baker's percent) the dough sags/droops if I don't strictly keep it on the table. The shape turns oval once I try to hold the stretched dough in my hands longer than 1 second.
new2dough,When I have made my Papa John clone doughs, which contain a lot of oil, I have used a hydration in the range of about 55-58%. However, my dough balls can't compete in terms of quality and robustness with a dough ball that is made in the highly commercialized equipment that Papa John's uses in its commissaries (Quality Control Centers) under tightly-controlled, laboratory-like conditions. I would have to lower the hydration and/or amount of oil to be able to have a fighting chance. I'm not sure whether Chau does any tossing or spinning of his dough skins in search of that elusive "perfect" pizza. I am sure his doughs are more robust than mine because of the dough regimen he uses, which has to be better than what my KitchenAid mixer can produce, but it is quite possible that he could toss and spin his dough skins if he so wanted.Peter
Hi Peter, I didn't realize that the equipment itself could have such crucial impact on the result. I don't even own a KitcheAid, just a very simple kneading machine... I guess I have to accept that it's going to be very difficult to achieve a similar result the professional kitchens have.Me, I have to make the best out of a basic kneading machine, low-temperature oven and low protein flour. :-P(I'm feeling like I'm hijacking this thread)
Chau, I agree with you in trying all types of methods, etc in order to better learn the impact of each change.There have been some interesting changes to pizzamaking over the last 10 years or so.....with "cross-over" of different breadmaking techniques being one of the major ones (stetch-and-fold, etc).If I had more friggen time to make pizza, I might eventually get to a point where I settle on a specific routine to make a certain style. But with limited time, it will take forever before I would dare entertain that I have tinkered with enough varying techniques to put it on cruise control and stick to one thing. As far as perfection, I do think it is possible to make one from time to time, but it is mostly a chase which cannot be duplicated consistently....and one's idea of perfection is likely to change as time goes on....more like a mile post on the road than a beacon that can be reached.Another sick thread here. The crumb on many of your pictures here is spot on Chau. --K
Thanks Kev, I agree.
New2dough, I believe from your other thread, the flour you use is ~10% protein. That is very similar to a pastry flour. As you may be aware, different strengths of flours can absorb a different amount of water based on their protein content and yet still exhibit similar workability characteristics provided a similar amount of gluten has been developed into the dough. For example, when I use AP flour vs HG flour the hydration ratio may vary from 68% to 73% (AP to HG) but yet both doughs will behave similarly provided I have adjusted the knead times accordingly. Just for a point of reference, if I am using strictly pastry dough at around 9-10%, I may use around 63-65% hydration ratio. Also keep in mind that I live at high altitudes and in an arid desert climate. My flour may very well be more dry compared to flour in a more humid environment and therefore may need more water to begin with. From my experience, how workable a dough is has more to do with how much gluten has been developed into the dough and less to do with hydration ratios. Yes hydration ratio does have an effect, mainly that the higher it is, the harder it is to develop that gluten. But if one uses folds to develop that gluten properly, I have found that even high hydrated doughs will behave similarly to a lower hydrated dough with less gluten development. So you may discover with time, that if you develop the gluten more in your dough, even a higher hydrated dough will act very similarly to a lower hydration dough given the same flour. If your dough is drooping too much, falling apart in your hand, or losing it's shape when you jiggle the open skin on the peel, it may mean that you don't have enough gluten developed into the dough. You can fix this by doing several folds prior to and as you are balling the dough up before it gets proofed. Here is a post I made about working with high hydration doughs. Again, a nice and airy crumb is a balanced one. It is the proper balance of hydration (relative to the protein content of the flour), the amount of gluten built into the dough, and the bake temperature and time. Reply #134http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.120.htmlChau
N2D, you are not hijacking this thread. You are initiating a good exchange of info here. I would agree that it can be rather difficult for a home pizza making hobbyist to emulate commercial pizzas without the commercial grade equipment and ingredients. If anything, commercial pizza is definitely more consistent than home made pies. I wouldn't say that commercial pizzas are usually better than home made pies though. I guess that depends subjectively on taste and the skill of the hobbyist. I would also say that if you spend enough time in this forum learning from the many experts here, you will be able to make fantastic pizzas with no mixer, a few quality ingredients, and your home oven.IMO, you can make really good pizza by hand in your home oven. The only thing holding you back is the low protein flour. Get your hands on some bread flour, a decent stone, and keep learning and practicing. Good luck,Chau
In Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10449.msg92753/topicseen.html#msg92753, I quoted Tom Lehmann on the matter of spinning pizza skins. He often refers to himself as "toss-spin challenged" when it comes to spinning pizza skins. Even he knows that it takes a lot of practice to be able to open up and spin and toss skins. If the hydration of my dough permits tossing and spinning pizza skins, I do it, just for fun and personal enjoyment and to keep from getting too rusty on the routine. However, when I have watched pizza makers in NYC make their pizzas, there was no tossing and spinning. I have seen it in places like Papa John's but the workers don't go overboard in the routine and try to show off, like the PJ worker in the video at .Peter
You are welcome...but who the heck is Kev? Lol...
Hi Chau,Thanks for your post with advise.I've looked at the link you provided and found it interesting. I kind of knew more gluten would absorb more water, but when you say high hydration + high gluten and a good gluten network development all combined still could (and should?) render a good dough with good and strong characteristics, I told myself I gotta try this one day. When you fold the dough, do you mean the way the French bakery people do it by throwing the dough on the table, fold it, pick it up and repeat it?
Hi agian Chau,When I visited the US (mainly California) I had some time to go shopping and had an opportunity to buy a oven stone at some chain store called Kitchen---something. I figured this would help me a lot with my home pizza making but I found it very awkward to use. It disturbed my work flow in a way that frustrated me which at some point I stopped using it. I guess what i'm trying to say is that once you get used to your own kitchen stuff at home, you could get pretty good results by trying to make the best out of the situation. Expensive (and heavy) stones, high wattage ovens, mixers probably can help you come out with good results, but in the end, I think it must feel comfortable and not disturb the work flow. So yes, I agree with you.
Chau,You have always made great strides in your methods and also using different flours and hydrations. I recently have been learning about using higher hydration in regular NY style pies and can now see how right you are in watching the dough and reballing or doing folds. I never thought I could work with high hydrations, in NY style, until I read the Tartine book and then tried those methods in high hydration doughs. I had only tried high hydrations in Sicilian pies before and those didnt need to be opened.Thanks for helping me learn. Norma
Thanks Norma. I always appreciate your comments. I'm glad you are experimenting with higher hydration doughs and hope that it can improve your pizza. Just keep in mind that at some point, high hydration becomes undesirable creating a dough that is too wet. An overly wet dough is hard and resist developing gluten. This actually prevents oven spring if there is not enough strength in the dough to tent up or hold up those air bubbles. Chau
Chau,I haven't gotten to the point when experimenting with high hydration doughs, of creating undesirable dough that is too wet. I probably will find out though experimenting about that. When I used Paul's flour at a high hydration and kept folding like you and something like the Tartine bread books teaches, I saw how much more bubbles were in the dough while bulk fermenting and even on the skin the next day. The dough kept getting slack or just sticky, but with each reballing or folding the dough became more manageable. Then I cold fermented the dough until the next day. That pizza was the best pizza I have made up to this point, as far as moistness in the rim and also a nice airy rim. I am sure I will learn more as I continue and also have flops. Thanks again, Norma
No, when I fold the dough, I just fold it in the hand or on the bench. BUT the example you listed is a great experiment. I have been trying to get members to do just that to show how easy it is to over develop gluten by kneading, even high hydration doughs. If you use that method of kneading and knead as such for 20m, you are guaranteed a dry and leathery crumb post bake provided you haven't used a high % of oil in the dough. For fun, you can take any typical pizza dough recipe, omit oil, and knead using this fashion for 20 min. Bake and enjoy a very chewy and dry pizza. As another test to show how folding dough can really strengthen and sometimes over strengthen dough (even high hydration doughs). Take any doughball you typically make. After the bulk rest and during balling, add an extra 10-15 folds. Simply flatten the doughball in hand and fold like a taco. Now fold the other 2 ends together always keeping the outside of the dough, the outside. Repeat this until the dough won't fold anymore. This is extreme but you can practically see how strength is added by folding. Now let that dough proof up for several hours and then try to open it. It will resist opening and will tear if you force it b/c too much gluten has been put into the dough. This works with high or low hydration doughs, it just happens faster in low hydrated doughs. Pizza making is all about gluten development, fermentation, and the bake. Chau
Norma, I'm glad you posted this as this is partly how I got into working with high hydration doughs a year ago. I started out kneading dough by hand using the french method of kneading as mentioned above by New2dough. Not having a mixer I dedicated myself to learning how to knead dough. Naturally I looked at different kneading methods for breads and settled on this french method. Base on other members long knead times, I ended up with tough and leathery crumbs. To fix this I naturally increase my hydration levels, which made the dough slack. I began adding the folds in to mitigate this slackness. I also noted that it trapped air bubbles that would seemingly show up in the end crust. Using common sense, I figured more folds would naturally trap more bubbles. This is how I learned that I could over fold a dough and have a hard time opening it. The posts I've been making lately about how to work with high hydration doughs and gluten development have been the result of a year's worth of active experimenting. The Tartine book, with it's great pictures, have really help me tie this all together and confirm a lot of what I've been learning in the past year. Without the forum, I would not have been able to make near the progress that I have. I'm not there yet, but definitely enjoying the ride. Chau
N2D, I'm curious as to how this pizza stone disturbed your workflow? In what way? Can you clarify? I understand your point here but I offer a couple of points to consider. 1) a good pizza stone that can retain and give off heat well is essential to achieving a good oven spring.2) I wouldn't push anyone to do anything uncomfortable but keep in mind that often times when we experiment outside of our comfort zone, it can be very rewarding. We can discover new techniques, learn about ourselves, and achieve improve outcomes.Can you post a picture of your stone. Member Scott123, is a stone expert and can help you learn how to use the stone properly if you so desire. Chau
Chau,Maybe you have addressed this before but have you been able to get your Bosch machine to yield a comparable dough in terms of gluten development with different types of flours and hydration values as you can get by hand kneading with the same flours, or do you find that you have to "manipulate" the Bosch to get the same results?I was also curious to know if you have ever made doughs at lower elevations and less dry conditions and, if so, with what results and differences. Maybe I can answer my own question by standiing on a chair the next time I make some dough and see if I can detect a difference .Peter
Hi Chau,I failed to explain in my previous post, sorry.What I meant to say was, pre-heating the stone in the oven is fine, but handling it is quite difficult.The main problems I encountered were ;a. The stone (+ oven tray) is heavy and demands a delicate balancing or the stone is prone to slide off the oven tray when moving it from the oven to kitchen table for toppingb. When the pizza sheet is placed on the stone for topping, I have to do it very fast because the sheet starts to develop bubbles almost immediately,c. Putting back the tray & stone into the oven is a delicate balancing act (a), with the high risk of allowing too much oven heat out because the oven door was open too long...d. The stone itself absorbed lot of moisture which made the crust too dry (probably higher % of liquid will remedy the problem).I agree with you though that one needs to think outside the comfort zone in order to develop!Here's a picture of the stone I bought (sorry about the mess. some of the topping slided off the sheet during an attempt to use a different technique..it is impossible to get it off, the stone itself absorbs every juice it can get its surface on) :


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Lindsey Vonn says she had successful surgery on her right knee, posting a photo of herself snuggling with her adopted dog, Leo, on her Facebook page Wednesday.
"Resting with loved ones and of course my cuddle buddy Leo. So thankful to have such great people helping me. Will update more later. Xo Lindsey"
Leo, too, has a bum knee after being hit by a car when he was a puppy. She adopted the 9-month-old dog last week.
A statement issued by her publicist Lewis Kay on Wednesday, said, "Lindsey Vonn underwent successful ACL reconstruction surgery yesterday. Dr. Jim Andrews performed the procedure and expects her to make a full recovery in time for next year's World Championships in Vail, Colorado."
Vonn announced on Jan. 7 that she would not compete at the upcoming Olympics because of the MCL sprain, coupled with the torn ACL. She is expected to make a full recovery in time for the 2014-15 World Cup season.
Surgery was successful. Resting now #day1pic.twitter.com/GWxah30V9w— lindsey vonn (@lindseyvonn) January 15, 2014
Vonn reinjured her right knee on Dec. 21 in Val d' Isere, France, her second World Cup stop since tearing the anterior cruciate ligament and medial collateral ligament in her knee last February and then partially tearing the same ACL in November.
The 29-year-old Vonn is the most successful female Alpine skier in American history with 17 World Cup titles, including a record six consecutive downhill titles and four overall crowns. She holds 59 World Cup victories, currently three short of tying the women's all-time record of 62 held by Austrian Annemarie Moser Proell.
PHOTOS: Vonn through the years
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Dolphin Artists :: Avenged Sevenfold
Related ArtistsFoo Fighters, Slipknot, From First to Last, Creed, Shadows Fall, A Perfect Circle, Queens of the Stone Age, Trivium, Disturbed, Red Hot Chili Peppers
Avenged Sevenfold (often abbreviated to A7X) are a hard rock band which formed in 1999 in Huntington Beach, California, United States. The band consists of M. Shadows (vocals), Synyster Gates (guitar), Zacky Vengeance (guitar) and Johnny Christ (bass). The band's drummer James "The Rev" Sullivan died in 2009, and the band has not named a permanent replacement. Currently, the band tours with former Confide drummer Arin Ilejay. The band has released five albums since their formation: "Sounding the Seventh Trumpet" (2001) Read more on Last.fm more
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Share Your Orders Thread
…because i totally needed more tea after Terri sent me her box – Tao Leaf Tea order
Golden Assam Black Tea – Organic
ZhengHe GongFu Black Tea – Jin Ping Village
TangYang GongFu Black Tea
Vanilla Black Tea – Organic Blend
Lapsong Souchong Black Tea – New Style
Tangerine Ginger Tea – Organic Blend
Purple Pu-er Tea – Sheng
Shui Xian Lap Cong Oolong Tea – Premium
Ginger Pu-er Shou Tea – Organic
Vanilla Mint Pu-er Shou Tea – Organic
Try me sampler from Della Terra (early b-day present)
I snuck in a small DTT order today:
2oz Grandma's Pumpkin Pie
1 oz Classic Apple Pie
2 oz Lime Chiffon
1 oz Carrot Cake
I needed more Lime Chiffon, and I wanted to get some Pumpkin Pie before it sold out. :) I hope I like it more than DAVIDs.
So I may have placed a few orders, but they weren't for me, which means I didn't really break my hiatus. I just managed to get both of my parents addicted to the tea they had at my house last week ::grins:: They liked it so much they were asking me the second I walked in their front door if I had brought any along on my road trip. They were very disappointed that I only brought tea bags that I wanted to get rid of.
Della Terra
Lemon Chiffon 10oz+2oz
Carrot Cake 1oz
Red Velvet Delight 1oz
Upside Down Rooibos 1oz
Spiced Caramel Apple 1oz
Order Total: $46.19
ingenuiTEA teapot 16oz
Order Total: $21.80
Gah, I couldn't pass up the Della Terra coupons on the weekend, so Sunday I placed an order (on my phone too! Gah, impulsive much lol)
An Autumn Breakfast – 1 oz
Carrot Cake – 1 oz
Chocolate Pumpkin Pie – 1 oz
Grandma's Pumpkin Pie – 1 oz
I'm totally falling in love with a lot of the autumn teas I've tried, hoping these are also successful!
Bluebird Tea Co. have free shipping today if you use the code #SBS. Never ordered from them before, but I had a little spare in my paypal account and it was free shipping, so these are now on their way to me :) –
1 x Earl Grey Crème
1 x Love Potion
1 x Vicky's Sponge Cake
1 x Rhubarb + Custard
VERY fast to get it out to me as well – ordered this afternoon, shipped this afternoon.
Just ordered my "reviewers special" large bag of Caramel Matchaccino from Red Leaf, as well as a large bag of the "special blend". Two large bags of matchaccino for $5? Yes please.
Bought this little jingdezhen teapot on ebay for £1. Yay!
Bad me..bad me…
It looks like Verdant has discontinued its reserve club, and now a bunch of the teas are up for sale for anyone to buy! Gasp…away goes the willpower…I picked the two that appealed to me the most, although I wanted two others as well:
Mi Lan Xiang Reserve Dancong – 1oz, as dancong teas seem to be my ABSOLUTE FAVORITEEE
Early Spring Fuding White tea – 1 oz, as the description sounds heavenly.
Now, no more tea for ages…like seriously, I can't get any more. 3 orders on the way to me :( time for some sipdowns! Lol
Haha that was the 5th runner up for me..other two were the jingshan green and the yabao..oh and the jin jun mei lol…sigh, or just, all of them? :D I'm so bad with Verdant, I want to order every tea they ever have lol.
Haha Sil, some of the Qimen is coming your way. Probably just enough to tell you if you need more :)
Oh, man. This is incredibly difficult to resist. D:
Edit: Okay, I seem to have temporarily rationalized my way out of going on a ridiculous shopping spree. Phew. Wallet is safe for now.
Ag – haha, I know what you mean, two teas was all I could rationalize, mostly because Verdant's Mi lan Xiang black tea is my absolute favorite black tea of all time, and it is discontinued, so I couldn't pass up the reserve oolong..but originally, my cart was around 90 bucks..haha :P watch out for late night orders, when you are kind of sleepy.. you just do it without really thinking lol.
Sil – you are doing so good with your sipdowns! You can resist! :D
Lena – this is about the only type of sale i have a hard time resisting since once it's gone, it's gone…
I know exactly what you mean :( that's why I order soo many Verdant teas, because they might not be around the next year, or in a few months even!
Ugh, I can't even get ONE of them right now. weeps for the $19 an ounce tea
Ugh, Verdant got me. The promise of new, exclusive blends was too much. Well, it's less than half the price of the reserve club, which ended, so I no longer have that monthly expense.
yeah….thinking about this one too. May try a month and have it sent state side to my tea mule and then decide on keeping it after the first month.
uggg I'm so tempted to get in on this!
Sigh…I will wait a little bit, at least a month before getting this..sooo tempting, especially liking that price!
Ok..so I may have caved and ordered it yesterday when there were only 6 spots left…..I couldn't resist after seeing the preview on the site, and fall blends are so good too! Gah, well lots of time to finish up other teas before they arrive I guess!
MissLena – There was a preview of the blends they'd be offering? Rats. I must've missed it. I was waiting to see what sort of teas they'd have the first month or two before I was going to decide if I'd join or not….Then again, it's all full now so I guess it doesn't really matter now anymore anyway. Lol.
I was going to do that too! Yes they posted pictures and the names on their facebook I know for sure and just the pictures I think on their site, yes on the club page they scroll through at the top of the page. The names were Northern Wilds, Master Han's forest grove, and Campfire Blend – I love the outdoors and woodsy teas, and these just sound perfect! #nowillpower haha


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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BryanS - I don't know what kind of pie I'm trying to make i guess. From my understanding, I'm trying to make a NY street style pie. the kind that is pretty thin, has a puffed up crust that can be folded, has some chew to it and tastes really good. I realize chedder isn't found on NY style pie but to keep my girlfriend eating them (so I can cook them more often) I added the sharp chedder..Should I be posting in another area? Thanks.
pnj, Make what you guys like. I was just saying that your pizza not really being a NY style pizza and was asking what style you were going for, and it sure does look great.


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"We make money the old fashioned way. We earn it." That slogan. made famous by an American investment company. has for years assured us that the best way - perhaps the only way - to get what we want in life is through hard work. While the earn-your-way-to-success philosophy is sound business advice. many today make the mistake of applying that formula to their relationship with God. Both believers and unbelivers. confused about the role of good works in salvation. are damaging the gospel taught in Scripture by adding unbiblical requirements and subtracting necessary elements.
Justified by Faith untwists the twisted notions about faith that are popular today. helping you construct a clean. accurate and practical definition of biblical. saving faith. This audio series is ideal for your group Bible study and makes a great resource for any Christian who desires a firm grasp on the issues of faith. grace and good works.
March 28, 1982 Romans 3:21-22a 45-29
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Living Planet Report 2012(Esta página no se ha traducido al Español)
"We've entered the era of the global auction," said Global Footprint Network President Dr. Mathis Wackernagel, "where nations are forced to compete fiercely for more expensive and less abundant resources. It's in their own self‐interest to preserve and restore the natural assets they have within their borders and avoid ecological deficit spending. In a resource‐constrained world, such spending will become an ever‐more challenging economic burden."
Read the Press Release. Download the Living Planet Report 2012 (17 MB)
Click here for dynamic view | Download the pdf (16.22 MB)
Download the Living Planet Report Summary Booklet (7.55 MB)| Download the LPR 2012 Special Edition on the Road to Rio (7.82 Mb)
View supplemental country reports: French| German (2.73MB)| LPR Turkey Supplemental Spanish (| Arabic (2.86 MB)| Russian (3.5 MB)
The 2012 edition of the Living Planet Report was launched on May 15th from the International Space Station by ESA astronaut André Kuipers from his European Space Agency mission.


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About the Author: Alberto Rodriguez serves as Spokesperson at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan.
U.S. Ambassador Cameron Munter and his wife, Dr. Marilyn Wyatt, held an open and candid conversation Tuesday, January 25 with 29 university students from underserved areas of Pakistan and covered issues such as U.S.-Pakistan relations, efforts to combat terrorism, and U.S. civilian assistance. The conversation will be broadcast on PTV on Thursday, January 27 at 8:05 p.m. local time and again Friday at 1:05 p.m., in English with Urdu subtitles.
This American-style "town hall" was part of a series of efforts by Ambassador Munter and Dr. Wyatt to meet Pakistanis from different walks of life and discuss their concerns and aspirations. The participants were among 1,400 students to have received university scholarships under the U.S. Agency for International Development's (USAID) Merit- and Needs-based Scholarship Program, managed by the Higher Education Commission.
One student told the Ambassador that "since joining the war against terrorism, Pakistan has lost thousands of people" and asked if U.S. assistance is "really enough to compensate our losses?""That's a tough question, and a good one," Ambassador Munter responded. "There are people from outside who are in your country who are taking advantage of the famous hospitality of Pakistan to attack innocent people. We want this war to end, and I know you do as well."
Dr. Wyatt outlined some of the U.S. efforts to rebuild areas of the country affected by conflict and floods, such as the $36 million program to rebuild schools and water supply systems in Malakand, a $55 million program to improve infrastructure in South Waziristan, and a $62 million program for post-flood agricultural recovery.
Dr. Wyatt also asked the students about their hopes and dreams. Many female students said they wanted to balance the personal and professional to lead happy family lives while pursuing meaningful employment. Meanwhile, several of the young men expressed ambitions to own their own businesses or help build capacity of government institutions.
"We really believe in you," Ambassador Munter said at the conclusion of the conversation. "You have this kind of energy and this kind of commitment. It's going to be a really great future if we can work together to help make these opportunities come true."
Kristy A. in Indiana writes:
Is there any way we will be able to see the talk/will it be made available online?
Eric in New Mexico writes:
News Item:
An American diplomat in the Pakistani city of Lahore has shot and killed a Pakistani motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger, police say.
They say that the consular official fired his pistol in self-defence. US embassy officials confirmed that an American was involved.
The men were pursuing the American in his car when the incident happened.
A pedestrian was also killed by a speeding car from the US consulate which came to help, police say.
They are investigating whether the two men on the motorcycle were robbers.
Weapons were recovered from the bodies of the dead men.
Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen told the AP news agency that the American was being questioned by the police and may be charged with both murder and illegally carrying a weapon: a Beretta pistol.
"Diplomatic staff usually enjoy a certain type of immunity, but I am not sure about murder," he said. "We will consult the Foreign Office and legal advisers in this regard.""The man told us he pulled out his pistol in self-defence," Mr Tarin said.
The American official is now being held in custody.
Officials at the US embassy in Islamabad say they are still investigating what happened and cannot comment further at this stage.
--end excerpt from BBC--
@ Alberto,
Looks like you folks have your hands full, and I hope the facts will clear this fellow of charges.


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Composition FOR FLIPTORRosuvastatin(10 mg)
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pregnancy interaction for FLIPTOR
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It can be taken with or without food, but it is better to take Fliptor 10mg tablet at a fixed time.
Avoid Fliptor 10mg tablet with high-fat meals such as olive oil, nuts & seeds (Brazil nuts), dark chocolate, butter and meat.
Avoid Fliptor 10mg tablet with high-fat meals such as olive oil, nuts & seeds (Brazil nuts), dark chocolate, butter and meat.
Taking alcohol with Rosuvastatin increases the chances of liver dysfunction.
Fliptor 10mg tablet is highly unsafe to use during pregnancy.
Human and animal studies have shown significant adverse effects on the foetus. Please consult your doctor.
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Rosuvastatin(10 mg)
Fliptor 10mg tablet is used in the treatment of increased cholesterol levels in blood, increased triglycerides levels in blood and increased LDL levels in blood
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Fliptor 10mg tablet blocks an enzyme (HMG-CoA-reductase) that is required in the body to make cholesterol. It thus lowers the level of cholestrol in the body.
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Sorted By
- ROSUVAS 10 MG TABLET(15 tablets in strip)Sun Pharmaceutical Industries LtdRs. 14/tabletRs. 210pay 84% more per tablet
- ROZAVEL 10 MG TABLET(10 tablets in strip)Sun Pharmaceutical Industries LtdRs. 13.60/tabletRs. 136pay 79% more per tablet
- ROSEDAY 10 MG TABLET(10 tablets in strip)USV LtdRs. 7.85/tabletRs. 78.50pay 3% more per tablet
- NOVASTAT 10 MG TABLET(15 tablets in strip)Lupin LtdRs. 11.63/tabletRs. 174.50pay 53% more per tablet
- RAZEL 10 MG TABLET(10 tablets in strip)Glenmark Pharmaceuticals LtdRs. 13.85/tabletRs. 138.50pay 82% more per tablet
Expert advice FOR FLIPTOR
- Take Rosuvastatin only as prescribed by your doctor.
- Avoid consuming alcohol when taking Rosuvastatin, it may worsen the adverse effects of this medicine on the liver.
- Notify your doctor if you experience unexplained muscle pain or weakness, which can lead to serious kidney problems.
- Do not take Niacin with Rosuvastatin. Niacin may increase Rosuvastatin's side effects on the muscles, which can lead to serious kidney problems.
- Notify the doctor that you are taking this medicine before undergoing any kind of surgery.
- Notify your doctor immediately if you are or are planning to become pregnant during the administration of this medicine.
Frequently asked questions FOR FLIPTOR
Q. Is rosuvastatin lipophilic?
No. It is hydrophilic in nature
Q. Is rosuvastatin safe?
Rosuvastatin is safe if used at prescribed doses for the prescribed duration as advised by your doctor
Q. Is rosuvastatin gluten free?
Yes, rosuvastatin is gluten fre
Q. Is rosuvastatin better than simvastatin?
Rosuvastatin is better than simvastatin as this is longer acting, more potent and has less side effects. Although, Rosuvastatinand simvastatin belong to same class of medication called as HMG CoA reductase inhibitor (or statins) with similar action