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Robert Sapolsky asserts that humans have one trait that best defines and distinguishes us from other species: the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in our head, and yet continue on in the face of it.
Parallel realities and the deep structure of space-time sound like science fiction. These are matters of real scientific inquiry. Lord Martin Rees is an astrophysicist and self-professed atheist who paints a fascinating picture of how we might be changed by what we do not yet know.
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is Master of Trinity College and Professor of Cosmology and Astrophysics at the University of Cambridge.
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Listen to Martin Rees present his "Scientific Horizons" Reith Lectures in 2010 on the BBC, exploring the challenges facing science in the 21st century. The series was presented as four lectures:
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The Combined Array for Research in Millimeter-wave Astronomy (CARMA) in Big Pine, California is an astronomical instrument comprising 23 radio telescopes. All the signals collected are combined, correlated, and "folded" by a computer to produce high-resolution astronomical images.
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Really puts things in perspective to re-affirm the fact that Human beings are not the end all be all of the universe/planet earth, yet at the same time are the most complex organization of atoms we know of.
I am Mormon. What I take away from this conversation is the awesomeness of the universe and its creator. Mr. Rees' discussion reminded me of the Mormon doctrine of Eternal Progression. A famous Mormon maxim from President Lorenzo Snow says, "As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be." No official Mormon Church teaching attempts to specify all the ways in which God progresses in his exalted spheres; "there is no end to [His] works, neither to [His] words" (Moses 1:38). God's glory and power are enhanced as his children progress in glory and power (see Moses 1:39). The concept of eternal progression is a salient feature of the gospel of Jesus Christ that distinguishes it from traditional Christian theology. Latter-day Saints not only seek personal and righteous improvement in this world but anticipate the continuation of progression eternally. While this concept is surely not part of Lord Martin Rees' views, his discussion reminded me of this doctrine from my religious tradition. One of our traditional hymns includes these lines, "...... No man has found 'pure space,' Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound; Improvement and progression Have one eternal round....."
The host's comment that the majority of her regular listener's are atheists or agnostics was a surprise to me because I am a regular listener and am neither. I have a strong belief in a higher spiritual power and find great comfort in my Christain faith and in ceremonial practices that defy rational explanation. I am curious about the foundations for our shared values and find most aspects of the host's interviews enlightening in this respect.
Best regards,
check the transcript. She
check the transcript. She says "We have a lot of listeners who are atheists and agnostic.." pointing out that "they have ethical lives and they have spiritual lives."
First of all, I must confess that I have not heard the entire conversation. But as soon as I heard the subject matter and the fact that it included something called "parallel universes", I was intrigued and excited. Since 1995 I have been having occasional visual hallucinations which I have kept a record of. They most always occur up to about an hour after I've turned out the light to go to sleep. The first time happened after I had recently moved into a different place (I was living alone and had been divorced for about 12 yrs at that point). I woke to see a face looking at me and when I quickly turned on the light, it disappeared. This was very frightening at the time. Since that time, there have been many other occurrences. Always different. Most often, people - men, women, children - some in silhouette - some with more detail. Once, I saw a cute dog staring at me from my bed. I got up to shoo him away before I remembered I didn't have a dog and no way for one to get in! These images always disappear as soon as the light is turned on. I have also had these when visiting overnight in other places. At times, I have been very frightened as the first time, but most often now I am usually startled and slightly annoyed to have my sleep interrupted. Over the years I have wondered what it could all mean. It didn't feel like a "haunting" (several years ago I saw a psychic who was no help). Nor does it feel like a dream - there is never a narrative and I do dream occasionally. The idea of a parallel universe was a thought I had - but it seemed very "far out"! I finally decided it was a brain thing and told my doctor who suggested I see a neurologist. I did, but after answering many of his questions in the negative, his only suggestions were to have an MRI or to take certain medications. He did feel that if they were dangerous, I would have had some indication by now. They haven't killed me! Having an MRI was an expense I didn't want to accept with so little expectation of any meaningful result. (well, I didn't really know what it could be) So now as a long shot, I'm sharing my story - wondering if it will mean anything to some one who thinks about these things. I should tell you I am a 75 yr old female, divorced mother of 4 grown children, active in community and church activities. I never hear "On Being" at the regular time as I'm on my way to church! Now, I think I will listen to the entire program from today...
Here is a loose transcription of a Q and A from the end of the show:
Q: "You note that among cosmologists...the polls are [divided between the idea] that it's so unlikely that everything came together to create this hospitable biosphere that there must be some purpose behind it, whether they call it God or not; and then there's another poll that says it's...an incredible, exquisite, random accident."
A: "I regard this as a...scientific question, not a metaphysical question... We do want to know how much is there in physical reality beyond the part of Universe we can see with our telescopes...could it be that there are different physical laws [for some areas of existence]...I think when we have the Unified Theory of the very large and the very small and the nature of space it will help to settle that question...whether there is as it were only one form of space or many different forms of space."
Q: "Do you rule out the possibility of purpose or Creative Intelligence...?"
A: "If there was a purpose I wouldn't expect human brains to understand it. I just think it's far too anthropomorphic to actually use the word 'purpose'...It seems to me that we are part of this world, many aspects of which are mysterious...I regard the rest as a mystery."
To say that the question of whether or not there is Purpose in Creation is a scientific question is quite unusual for a man with the education and intelligence of Lord Martin Rees. At first I was repulsed, thinking that he was as absolute and rigid in his views as the most die-hard religious fundamentalist. To re-frame one of the key philosophical questions of man as scientific...can he be serious? Karl Popper argued that a hypothesis, proposition, or theory is "scientific" only if it is, among other things, falsifiable. Without going into a discussion of 100 pages and quoting many philosophers, any educated person can immediately see that "Purpose" cannot possibly be proven or disproven. What Martin Rees essentially did is sidestep Krista's question and reframe it as a question he's comfortable with: whether or not the Laws of Physics are constant throughout the Universe or not. Like a good politician.
Lord Rees goes on to say that "if there was a purpose I wouldn't expect human brains to understand it." It is interesting that he thinks the human brain quite capable of thinking about Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, but not about Purpose! Are we that metaphysically-challenged as a species? Why are we brilliant and amazing creatures at the cutting edge of evolution when we tackle scientific questions, but we are complete dunces and nitwits when tackling ethical and philosophical questions?
If you look closer at this last quote of his, it's actually a paraphrase of Darwin who said regarding the question of there being Design in Creation, in a letter to Asa Gray, an American botanist and devout Christian:
"I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do... evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us... I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance... I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.— Let each man hope & believe what he can."
Rees, again twisting the facts to fit his view of reality, re-frames Darwin's quote this way in the lecture "The Runaway World":
"And when asked about religion, Darwin diffidently responded 'The whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. Let each man hope and believe as he can'. A glaringly different stance from some of his present-day disciples!" (LAUGHTER)
- from http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00srktg
If you look at the context, Darwin was NOT talking about religion (from what we know, he was actually a very religious man). He was talking about a specific religious viewpoint as it applied to biology. The way Lord Rees ignores the context and turns it into a blanket statement about "religion" makes me feel like I'm watching someone trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.
To sum up, it seems to me that either Lord Rees is a die-hard fundamentalist in believing that all of reality is physical (or physical pretending to be other than physical), or he really thinks any viewpoint other than his narrow scientific one is really a bunch of nonsense, and he is changing the subject to be politically correct and polite. From my point of view, it's either irrationally stubborn narrowness or deception, and I am not impressed by either.
PS: for a fuller discussion of what Darwin actually said,
see: http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-2814
and: http://yhoo.it/l4zlzp
What a great conversation! It was full of common sense applied to complex and important issues. When logic is applied to such things as ethics, evolution, and religion they take on a much more meaningful place in our lives. The science of string theory is daunting to understand but Dr. Rees did a very good job of outlining how they can be viewed by non-scientists. He is a lovely person with a great intellect.
I have no diplomas in higher education. I have learned more than one thing in my 63 years. In nature one can find the answer to many things. The example of " Cosmic Origami" is one of many clues left to us in nature. Jim Kelley
I am a zen meditator, and was fascinated by the use of the word origami, to describe the hidden structure of what we at we call space-time. It must be how the creatures, more highly evolved than us in dimensional status,
our "gods", so to speak, must see things.
Surely, we are not the ultimate of evolution.
As Alan Watts puts it, we as humans, are not just some accident of the universe. We are more than
random flashes of conciousness, between 2 eternal darknesses. We are being given the opportunity to evolve.
There is an old Taoist concept, which I discovered thru macrobiotics. It goes something like this: In your previous
existence, you had a 9 month life inside your mother, so you could develope the organs needed to survive on the
next level. During this time, you were sustained by the placenta, and after 9 months, you died, and were thrust
into this world, where your human body is now the placenta for the inner energy development, and our collective
mother is Mother Earth.
Our job is to develope the spiritual organs needed to survive on the next level, when our earth placenta dies,
and we are thrust out into the cosmic ocean.
I highly recommend the old book, Space, Time and Beyond, to understand how magical our human lives are. We cr
create our future event sequences, in a set of parallel universes, but we are confined to a linear time flow.
All done in our subconcious minds.
The Krishna founder Prabupada says that each human life, is a 1 in a gazillion chance, that the soul gets, to move
up higher, into the worlds of pure mass-free energy.
And think, most of us just waste it pursuing material pleasures. That is not to say the pleasures of earth are to be shunned, but don't stay here for them.... there are much better worlds. Worlds without the death and decay
that is part of our mortal existences.
COMMENT/OBSERVATION: I so relished Lord Martin Rees' remark, "It may seem ironic that I could talk with some confidence about a galaxy a billion light years away." (o; because we don't often acknowledge that a great part of modern cosmology is more "new-age mythology" than science--because it is not based upon hard evidence, nor can it yet be confirmed by validated observations.
However, cosmology does and must provide my imagination, and capacity for wonder, generous doses of mystery and awe. As a specific foil to Lord Rees' gentle irony, NPR's Weekend Edition Sunday (5 June 2011) highlighted an aphorism by Belfast Maine family Doctor David Loxterkamp: "Patients cannot see outside their pain; we cannot see in. Relationship is the only bridge between."
Actually, for a couple of decades now, I've thought about the living red corpuscles coursing through my arteries and veins: for any awareness these cells might possess, I would say that they cannot imagine the existence of the spiral Andromeda galaxy. Even so, and to cut to the chase, I continue to hold a private axiom--that AWARENESS must be a universal property of all Matter and Energy comprising and engaging my consciousness of the cosmos. (It's a reciprocal thing between myself and You All: from the unimaginably Immense to the inscrutably Small. It's a professed "common ground" which also helps me to celebrate "the kingdom of heaven." Amen.)
Would like to research more
Would like to research more about the nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies that are made in the interiors of collapsing stars.
Does anyone have a link to
Does anyone have a link to the Lindon Eaves interview?
Religion can imped science;
Religion can imped science; but, it is the ultimate defennse against science gone totally mad such as the descion to even have a neuclear bomb. Ethics is only te begining of undderstanding that we must practice humility and respect that the universe is not ours. We are tresspassers. Our goal is to pray for fogivenss for the tresspasses of men when they go mad in their egomaiacal search.
Thanks for another great
Thanks for another great conversation. Thanks to Krista for posing brilliant questions that gave Lord Rees plenty to work with. She seems most interested in the overlap or interface between science and faith. two most powerful forces, and she brings love and joy, two other powerful items. to the discussion. Great job, thank you! One point of correction to a previous comment - she said that some, not that a majority, of her listeners are atheist or agnostic. It's great that she respects all sides of this debate.
Dear Krista,
Dear Krista,
I very much enjoyed your interview with Martin Rees and I appreciate his stance on the right relationship between science and religion. If I could, in all respect, correct an assumption that Mr. Rees echoed during the interview regarding the nature of religion. In the interview he states:
"And that makes me skeptical of anyone who claims to have the last word or complete understanding of any deep aspect of reality."
I find it distressing whenever I hear a scientist give as a reason for their non-observance the idea of religious 'certainty'. There may be many reasons for not wanting to participate in religious life, but it seems to me that can't be one of them.
Religion is NOT about certainty.
Religion is in fact about the the very opposite of certainty. Religion is based in humility and has at its root the very uncertain nature of the entire enterprise we call existence. At its best, it keeps us rooted in that humility by reminding us that no matter how much knowledge we as a species accumulate, as individuals, we are exceedingly limited in our capacity for understanding. That is not to say that religion opposes the accumulation of new knowledge. Knowledge informs religious observance. I admit that religious institutions are slow at processing new knowledge and bringing it into the focus of its communal life. It is debatable, however, whether this is a virtue or a vice.
When Rees later states that "I think the most we can hope for is some incomplete and metaphorical understanding and to share the mystery and wonder" he is in fact ironically giving us the very definition of the purpose and practice of religion.
When two people get married, we call that a 'leap of faith', not because we know how things will turn out, but because we have only limited knowledge and capacity to guide how things might turn out. There is no certainty to it. That's why we call it faith.
I wish that people in the scientific community would get that straight in their minds. If they did, they might begin to understand that religion and science are not only foreign to each other, they are in many ways kindred spirits.
Rich Walser
Among the greatest joys of
Among the greatest joys of "On Being" is the admixture of spirituality and science. Those parts of me that revel in spirit and in scientific thought are enlivened by turns each week as I tend to my Sunday morning breakfast rituals.
This week's interview added another layer to my understanding of the nature of the Universe through a blend of science and metaphysical thought. With each new revelation from astro- or sub-atomic physics, the correlations between science and the cosmology of the Western Mystery Tradition come into sharper focus. Martin Reeses description of "bugs on sheets of paper" separated by a dimensional distance that we currently have no language to express comes very close to the ancient description of the Planes of Existence.
This week's program brought up another topic of importance to me: the tension between "religion" and science. The reason for the quotes here is to emphasize the fact that most or all of this disagreement arises between proponents of a "spirit-free" view of science and the exoteric forms of religion. Those of us in the esoteric religious community heartily cheer the advances in scientific thought because they help to clarify things that our ancient masters taught. Learning new ways to think about the world doesn't shatter my beliefs. Quite the opposite; it broadens and deepens my wonder at this ingenious Universe and I am forever grateful to live now, during an age of enlightenment!
I thought that this was a
I thought that this was a very interesting podcast. I was interested the religious views of Lord Martin Rees because of the struggles that can sometimes come between religion and science. I was not surprised to find out that he was an atheist. As he was talking about what we don't know about space, it's hard to fathom something that goes on forever and what can be out there. I found his analogy with the bugs on a piece of paper very helpful in understanding his thinking. We go about life without thinking that there could be other life elsewhere. There is a lot to space that we don't know and it's hard to wrap our minds around the fact that there may be other life out there.
To me this podcast included a lot of science, which I think Rees has a hard time separating this from religion. He goes on to talk about how he is worried about the future of humans on earth. I personally view technology as a great thing that helps mankind. I have never put much thought about the bad that can come from it as well. I kept waiting for the connection to religion, and just under 30 minutes into the show he finally tells why he is atheist. With all the unknowns in the world and those he has found through science, he seems to struggle with religion because religion claims to have a deep understanding of reality. I can understand where he is coming from in that religion cannot explain every aspect of the universe. He seems to be the type that things need to be proved through science and experimenting. Obviously religion cannot be tested in this way.
I enjoyed the conversation
I enjoyed the conversation and appreciate Lord Martin Reese' desire for a smarter more thoughtful public dialogue and peaceful coexistence of the religion vs. science discourse. One thing that I often find perplexing in these types of philosophical or religious discussions is why it is so hard for some people to consider that others may indeed believe in the importance and findings that science brings to humanity, and disagree with the dogmas that come with today's mainstream religions, yet at the same time not be atheists.
To me, the possible complex origami that Lord Martin describes might lie within a single small point in space, is further reason to believe that humans do not and cannot have an understanding of what may lay beyond in the spiritual realm. It is possible to believe in the importance of science, and the conclusions it draws, and yet still be spiritual and have a faith in a God.
As long as we are human there
As long as we are human there are many things we cannot and will not ever understand. That does mean that the "claims" to understand many ultimate things are only guesses, maybe good guesses, or worse useless dogma dreamed up on starry nights in the desert of our ignorance.


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Difference between revisions of "Installation"
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===compilation from sources on RHEL / CentOS / Scientific-Linux===
===compilation from sources on RHEL / CentOS / Scientific-Linux===
You should use these RPM packages that have been built for RHEL6 based distributions:
You should use these RPM packages that have been built for RHEL6 based distributions:
*[http://sourceforge.net/projects/fsarchiver/files/fsarchiver-bin/0.6.13/fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.x86_64.rpm/download fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.x86_64.rpm]
*[http://sourceforge.net/projects/fsarchiver/files/fsarchiver-bin/0.6.13/fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.x86_64.rpm/download fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.x86_64.rpm]
*[http://sourceforge.net/projects/fsarchiver/files/fsarchiver-bin/0.6.13/fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.i386.rpm/download fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.i386.rpm]
*[http://sourceforge.net/projects/fsarchiver/files/fsarchiver-bin/0.6.13/fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.i386.rpm/download fsarchiver-0.6.13-1.el6.i386.rpm]
Revision as of 13:16, 4 March 2012
There are two ways to use FSArchiver. You can either download a livecd with this program on it (eg: any recent SystemRescueCd), or you can install it on a linux system on your computer. If you want to install FSArchiver, you have three solutions:
- you can use the official fsarchiver package that comes with your Linux distribution (recommended method)
- you can just copy the official static binary (very easy: you just have one standalone binary file to copy)
- you can compile fsarchiver from sources
Installation from sources
If you want to compile it from sources, you will need to have the following libraries installed on your system, including their header files. On RPM based distributions, you often have to install packages such as libXXX-devel.rpm to have the header files, since the base package (libXXX.rpm) does not provide these files. Here are the required libraries:
- zlib (and zlib-devel)
- liblzo (and lzo-devel)
- bzip2-libs (and bzip2-devel)
- libgcrypt (and libgcrypt-devel)
- libblkid (and libblkid-devel)
- e2fsprogs-libs (e2fsprogs-devel)
- xz-utils-5.00 (and xz-devel)
If libraries or header files are missing:
- In case you don't have the xz/liblzma or liblzo installed, you have the ability to compile fsarchiver with no support for lzma or lzo:
./configure --prefix=/usr --disable-lzma --disable-lzo && make && make install
You can also use the static that provides support for all the compression levels and which does not require the libraries to be installed on your system.
To compile the sources, you have to run follow these instructions:
1. download the latest sources
First, you have to download the latest sources, it's a file called fsarchiver-x.y.z.tar.gz. Just save it to a temporary directory.
2. extract the sources in a temporary directory
mkdir -p /var/tmp/fsarchiver cd /var/tmp/fsarchiver tar xfz /path/to/fsarchiver-x.y.z.tar.gz
3. compile and install from sources
cd /var/tmp/fsarchiver/fsarchiver-x.y.z ./configure --prefix=/usr make && make install
Installation of the precompiled binary
If the compilation does not work, you can just download the static binary, extract it, and copy the binary somewhere on your system (/usr/sbin for instance). There is just one 32bit binary for i386. If you are using a 64bit linux, this binary should work since most the 64bit linux kernels are able to execute 32bit binary, thanks to the option CONFIG_IA32_EMULATION.
Uninstalling fsarchiver is easy since it only installs one file on your system, which is the compiled binary. To uninstall fsarchiver, just remove
FSArchiver has to kind of dependencies: libraries and file-system tools.
libraries dependencies
Several libraries with their header files are necessary to compile the sources (cf previous section about installation) and to execute the program if it has not been compiled in a static way. You can avoid the problem with libraries dependencies by using the static binary that you can download from the sourceforge download page.
file-system tools required
The file-system tools for the file-system you are using are required to restore a file-system.
You should not have any problem with the file-system tools (such as a program which is missing because it is not installed) when you save the file-system (using
fsarchiver savefs). You only need the file-system tools (such as e2fsprogs, reiserfsprogs, xfsprogs, ...) when you want to restore a file-system. And it should not really be a problem since you often want to restore a file-system by booting from a livecd such as SystemRescueCd, since you cannot restore your root file-system when you are using it, so booting from a livecd / usb-stick is mandatory in that case.
FSArchiver only requires the tools that match the file-system of the restoration. For instance, if you are trying to restore an archive to a reiserfs partition, you will need the reiserfsprogs to be available, even if the original filesystem was ext3 when you saved the file-system to an archive.
Distribution specific information
installation on fedora (using yum)
Recent Fedora releases provide an official package for fsarchiver where all the optional features are enabled (lzma compression, encryption, ...). You can just use the following command to download and install fsarchiver and all its dependencies.
yum install fsarchiver
installation on ubuntu (using apt-get)
Ubuntu 10.04 (Lucid Lynx) and more recent have an official fsarchiver package in the universe repository. It can be installed with the standard apt-get command:
sudo apt-get install fsarchiver
If you want to compile it by hand on Ubuntu, here are the instructions to install the required libraries and to compile the sources:
apt-get install zlib1g-dev libssl-dev libbz2-dev liblzo2-dev e2fslibs-dev attr-dev libblkid-dev uuid-dev libgcrypt11-dev liblzma2 tar xfz fsarchiver-0.6.13.tar.gz cd fsarchiver-0.6.13 ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
installation on debian (using apt-get)
Thanks to Michael Biebl there is now a fsarchiver deb package for debian. You can just install it with the normal command:
apt-get update apt-get install fsarchiver/testing
installation on arch-linux (using pacman)
There is now an official package for fsarchiver in arch-linux: for both i686 and x86_64. You can install it with the following command:
pacman -S fsarchiver
installation on SUSE (using zypper)
- There is an official fsarchiver package for Suse.
- There are three ways to install software in SUSE:
- First, following the link above with "one click install" -- simpliest way.
- Second, add additional repository and install with GUI-tool YaST.
- Third, add additional repository and install with CLI-tool zypper.
- To add a repository with the CLI: zypper ar <repository-url> (see repository addresses below)
- To install fsarchiver with the CLI: zypper in fsarchiver
- Repositories:
- openSUSE 11.2 stable:
- openSUSE 11.2 unstable:
- openSUSE 11.1
- openSUSE 11.0
- openSUSE Factory
- Here is the command to install development packages if you want to compile it by hand:
- zypper install libgcrypt-devel lzo-devel zlib-devel xz-devel libbz2-devel libext2fs-devel libblkid-devel libuuid-devel libattr-devel
compilation from sources on debian
Here are the instructions to install the required libraries and to compile the sources on Debian-6.0 (Squeeze):
apt-get install e2fsprogs zlib1g-dev libbz2-dev liblzma-dev liblzo2-dev libgcrypt11-dev e2fslibs-dev uuid-dev libblkid-dev libattr1-dev pkg-config tar xfz fsarchiver-0.6.13.tar.gz cd fsarchiver-0.6.13 ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
Here are the instructions to install the required libraries and to compile the sources on Debian-5.0 (Lenny):
apt-get install e2fsprogs e2fslibs-dev libblkid-dev liblzo2-dev libbz2-dev zlib1g-dev uuid-dev libattr1-dev libgcrypt11-dev pkg-config tar xfz fsarchiver-0.6.13.tar.gz cd fsarchiver-0.6.13 ./configure --prefix=/usr --disable-lzma && make && make install
Unfortunately, there is no stable package for liblzma for Lenny, so you cannot compile support for lzma if you only have stable packages on your system. If you want to enable the support for lzma in fsarchiver, you will have to install liblzma-dev from testing using apt-get:
apt-get install liblzma-dev/testing tar xfz fsarchiver-0.6.13.tar.gz cd fsarchiver-0.6.13 ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
compilation from sources on RHEL / CentOS / Scientific-Linux
You should use these RPM packages that have been built for RHEL6 based distributions, that is the recommended way for most users:
If you want to recompile fsarchiver yourself, you can use the following instructions:
Here are the instructions to install the required libraries and to compile the sources on RHEL / CentOS / Scientific-Linux version 6.x:
yum install zlib-devel bzip2-devel lzo-devel xz-devel e2fsprogs-devel libgcrypt-devel libattr-devel libblkid-devel tar xfz fsarchiver-0.6.13.tar.gz cd fsarchiver-0.6.13 ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
Below are the instructions to install the required libraries and to compile the sources on RHEL / CentOS / Scientific-Linux version 5.x. You need at least version 5.5 of the OS in order to get support for the xz/lzma compression. If you are using this OS in an early 5.x version you will have to disable support for the xz/lzma compression in fsarchiver:
yum install zlib-devel bzip2-devel e2fsprogs-devel libgcrypt-devel libattr-devel libblkid-devel xz-devel tar xfz fsarchiver-0.6.13.tar.gz cd fsarchiver-0.6.13 ./configure --prefix=/usr --disable-lzo && make && make install
compilation from sources on gentoo
Gentoo implements the support for packages using ebuild files. There is now an official ebuild for fsarchiver in gentoo, so you can directly install it using the "emerge" command as long as your portage tree is recent. You may also have to change the keywords to make the installation possible:
- Add app-backup/fsarchiver to your /etc/portage/package.keyworks if required:
echo "app-backup/fsarchiver ~*" >> /etc/portage/package.keywords
- Change the USE if you want non-default compilation options:
echo "app-backup/fsarchiver lzma lzo gcrypt static" >> /etc/portage/package.use
- Run the installation command:
emerge app-backup/fsarchiver

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Without NRG, school district to have massive layoffs, tax hike
Editor's note: This is the second in a four-part series previewing Monday's public hearing with the Public Service Commission on NRG.
Questions about the future of NRG Energy in Dunkirk – whether it will be repowered being the key one – have been a concern for interested citizens of Chautauqua County since the company announced its intention to mothball its Dunkirk generating station in March 2012.
Whether or not NRG will build the natural gas dual-cycle plant is a decision that lies in the hands of the New York State Public Services Commission.
NRG maintains the new plant will meet future reliability needs, otherwise there is no need to build it. The PSC has been studying the issues involved since January, when it was assigned the duty by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. The process is in the home stretch and the finish will include a public hearing on Monday at SUNY Fredonia's Williams Center. Presentations by National Grid and NRG with a question and answer period will be given from 6-7 p.m., and the hearing will begin at 7 p.m. An administrative law judge will preside over the hearing, and people from the audience will be allowed to testify.
A key issue for taxpayers is the future of the revenues currently received under a payment in lieu of taxes agreement reached between the Chautauqua County Industrial Development Agency and NRG in 2008.
One person who is planning on speaking is Dunkirk City School District Superintendent Gary Cerne. The NRG PILOT payment the district receives through the CCIDA is a significant component of the budget.
"Obviously, the PILOT is huge for us. We'd have to raise taxes 42 percent to make up for the loss of revenue," Cerne explained. "Our exact amount is $4,062,020, which is 10 percent of revenue. How do you make up 10 percent of your revenue? It's impossible. The only way to make it up would be to raise taxes 42 percent, or I could cut 58 teachers, neither of which is possible. We're between a rock and a hard spot."
The PILOT program has outs for both the CCIDA and NRG. As it stands now, NRG will make its regularly scheduled payment for the first half of the next budget cycle, but after that the agreement calls for the payment to be based on the number and size of generators in operation. Currently, under a reliability need, NRG is running one of its two smaller generators and is set to do so until 2015.
If the NRG Dunkirk PILOT program ends the plant and property return to the tax rolls.
"Then the legal battle starts. What's that plant worth? Who knows how many years that would take to solve. So in the short term we've got a revenue problem," Cerne said, adding the district has begun making contingency plans. "We've got a whole list of things that we can do and we're already starting to nibble away at a few things, but we don't want to be overreactive because who knows, if the repowering comes in we might be back at the table renegotiating the PILOT if they get the repowering."
Cerne said he had no idea how the issue would play out.
"It's so hard to determine. It depends on whose numbers you listen to," he added. "We've been to meetings with National Grid and things like that. They've got a set of numbers and I'm sure NRG has a set of numbers that are contradictory to theirs. It's hard to even determine which direction it may go right now."
Cerne said the district's employees are being asked to get involved with the hearing. Nancy Baker, the teachers union president, has sent emails to members.
"I have had conversations with her and John Hollins, the CSEA president, and Rock Vallone, the administrator's president. I've spoken to all three either via email or conversations and I sent another reminder to everyone in the district (Tuesday) of the importance of being there on Monday."
Cerne said he was planning on speaking but had no details on a lineup of speakers.
"I'm definitely planning on sharing some of the information with everyone there," he added. "I know Mrs. Baker would like to speak. I am hoping we have a meeting before long to sort out the lineup. We're trying to rally as many people as we can. We want a full house."
Parking will be available in both the Dods and Steele hall parking lots, along with the Ring Road lots. A CARTS bus will be circulating to provide rides to the Williams Center, which is handicapped accessible.
Coming Sunday: NRG's impact on Chautauqua County. Send comments to email@example.com


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Here's how RW members rated this race in the past (468 votes).
In short: Hell's frozen over and not what it once wasIn full: I had great fun running this but with the air temp at minus 3 degrees it was a little chilly in the water sections. This year saw the return of the car park near the start. This was at a £4 premium but well worth it if just to reduce the likelihood of hypothermia walking to the alternate car park about a mile away. Despite the loos being frozen up, the start being disorganised and several runners taking short cuts I still love this race.Date of review: December 7, 2010
In short: Not as tough as it says on the tin!!In full: I was expecting this to be a tough race but it was only the British weather that delivered on this front. Most of the distance is a moderate trail run with a few short sharp hills and two water obstacles near the end. As the course goes a long way out there are no spectators for most of it, just a few frozen cadets standing around in a few places (hats off to them by the way!). It was good fun but I saw a couple of people in difficulty near the end and there was very little medical help for them. There really needs to be just two big male and female changing marquees or something at the end for people to get out of their wet stuff, I was borderline hypothermic and so were many others. Great fun if you've never done anything like this before but doesn't come near the organisation and atmosphere of events like Tough Guy.Date of review: December 6, 2010
In short: Hellrunner - they wish. More like bit of cross country and a waterdunk.In full: Disappionted overall. I thought this was going to be "hell". But for me it just felt like a long cross country run with a couple of swims near the end. The organisation was fine. T-Shirt was ok. Just not worth the money and didn't live up to it's OWN hype.Date of review: December 3, 2010
In short: Challenging & freezing. No help for almost hypothermic participants!!!In full: Having ran this race last year, I found it to be easier going underfoot as the ground was much drier this year. However, the bog of doom had ice on it before the start and the air temperature was below freezing. Therefore the race was much harder than last year after going through the water hazards as you were absolutely freezing. This to the point that I still have some nerve sensation problems in one of my fingers. Note to self: must not fall into the water next time! The hills were tough but if you spent time training on hills then they were not too much of a problem. There were no silver blankets (or any official assistance) at the end. I am surprised no one had hypothermia. There was also no band playing half way round so there was less atmosphere than last year. All this said, I beat last year's time by 6 minutes so was pretty chuffed! I would consider doing it again (check the weather forecast beforehand!!)Date of review: December 3, 2010
In short: Bit of a Let Down, V Cold but FAR easier than expectedIn full: Having entered a number of off road races which include water hazards in the past and enjoyed the challenge, I thought Hell Down South was going to be a real challenge. Also, having viewed the video it looked as though the organisers put in a lot of effort to make the event special. Sadly, my experience of the race did not live up to expectations. The actual run was pretty straightforward trail running with nothing that was any more challenging that normal training runs. I admit that the water hazards were absolutely freezing and upped the difficulty factor somewhat, but with temperature at -2 on the start line, I guess this was to be expected. I was so glad that my friends and I had come prepared as there seemed to be little help at the end of the race for those suffering with the cold. This could have had serious consequences for less well prepared runners and I think is something the organisers need to think carefully about. I know this race is run at your own risk, but the unusually cold days this year could have resulted in real problems for some people. The loos were the most hellish part of the day to be honest (and I hear they were even worse on Sunday). So I won't be doing this one again. There are cheaper, more challenging and more fun events to be run!Date of review: December 3, 2010
In short: Insane but brilliantDate of review: December 3, 2010
In short: the race its slef was fantastic but was let down by the organisation sadly :(In full: I loved the mud, course and pysical challange of the race. Running while that cold and wet was hard but enjoyable. :) Sadly I came away anoyed at the organisation and saftey of the race. For the money we paid it was not good. Some members of our group came close to hyperphemia ( We all understood it was a posibilty and what the race was about ) How ever you expect the organziers to understand this and be set up for it. First hand i saw this was not the case. There needs to be tents with heaters where people can get changed with blankets and peopel to help. Luckly we were part of a big group and could help each other in and out of clothing. The way the first aid dealt with people who could cope was terible. Date of review: December 2, 2010
In short: This event is a real ice breaker... literally.. with the frozen bogs and lakes!In full: Great run, but would have been a greater challenge if some of the earler water features did not have a path to avoid it. Really good fun, but very cold, and the bog is very deep, smelly and frozen, really felt for ther smaller people who had to swim rather than wade..Date of review: December 2, 2010
In short: Brilliant Fun & cant wait for next year!In full: This was the first time i had ever entered a race like this and also the longest run i would have done in terms of miles - i was nervous but very excited at the same time. The atmosphere was amazing and even though i was running on my own it didnt matter as everyone was friendly and in good spirits. The weather worked to our advantagin one way with all the hills of mud frozen but not when it came to going through the bog of doom. I will never forget that feeling of getting in that bog and wondering if i would finish at all but the amazing feeling of finishing made up for it all. A great race, well organised and great fun!Date of review: December 2, 2010
In short: FAB, Cold, HellIn full: This is the BEST event I have done this year. It was hard but fun. Shockingly cold, mental water hazards, hilly terrain, great organization. I will be back to better my time next year.Date of review: December 2, 2010
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Thanks for posting this dough formula, but it leads to more questions before anyone can comment.1) Is this a same day dough? It has a high amount of yeast, but you don't indicate rising time, etc.2) Mixing. I use a food processor for most chicago thin at 50% hydration with low oil, but if I'm making a deep dish dough, with the higher oil content, I hand mix. ( Don't own a Kitchenaid)3) Baking. You stated this is for a cutter pan, which I like since I don't own a stone. But you don't suggest temps, times, etc.Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing. I'd just like to know more about procedures, because the dough looks like something I'd like to make.
But I'm especially interested in the baking procedure, since I really don't have any interest in stone baking.
I'll give this a try next weekend! I've never had Aurelio's, so I won't be able to judge how close it is to the real thing, but regardless I know it will turn out awesome!!!
Aurelio's Sauce28 oz Classico purée (or peeled ground if not available)1/2 Tbs salt1/2 tsp pepper1 Tbs sugar1/2 tsp oregano1/2 tsp basilThis sauce totally nails it. I combined recipes from various best guesses, and this one really seems to be it!Cheers,GarveyP.S. I apologize that I have no pictures to post.
Congrats, man, on finishing the Ph.D.! And I totally get the "too hot for pizza." I haven't made any pizza since late June.


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AlexZorach wrote:By stronger, do you mean more smoky, or having a more powerful black tea character (i.e. more bitter, stronger aroma, more caffeinated?)?
I find that the better Lapsang Souchongs almost all tend to be extremely mellow, with very little bitterness. They're also all low in caffeine because souchongs are made from large, mature leaves. If you want a stronger black tea character, you might want to look at a blend (like Russian caravan) or blend some yourself.
John dan... wrote:I'm mainly looking for stronger smoke flavors.


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Tool-Free Locking Bathtub Bar
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This steel locking bathtub bar helps make taking a bath easier. It has a white enamel coating that is mildew resistant. The bar sits 14" above the tub wall, and no tools are required with the crank-style, locking device. It also comes with rubber pads to protect the tub wall.
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David Akers (1975/88): The 1910 is one of the more common issues of the series. Locating an example in MS-63 condition or less will present no difficulty at all. In MS-64 and even MS-65, there are enough examples in existence that one can be found with just a little effort. Some extraordinary MS-65+ to MS-67 or better examples are also known of this issue, perhaps as many as eight to 10 in all, making the 1910 one of the few Indian Head eagles of which it is possible to find a really superb quality example.
Most 1910 eagles are very sharply struck, as sharp as any other issues in the series. The vast majority of specimens are fully frosty with a very fine graularity to the surface; a smaller number are satiny. Lustre varies from slightly above average for the frosty specimens to excellent for the satiny ones. Most of the frosty examples are orange and greenish gold in color, while the satiny ones are typically light to medium yellow gold.


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Paramore have announced two shows in Belfast and Edinburgh before the Reading and Leeds festivals. They'll be headlining Belsonic 2012 on Sunday, August 19th and playing at Corn Exchange on Tuesday, August 21st. The 19th marks the band's first performance in Ireland since playing sold out shows at Belfast's Kings Hall and Dublin's O2 Arena in 2010.
Tickets for both shows go on sale this Friday through Ticketmaster.
08.19 Belfast, UK @ Custom House Square (16+)
08.21 Edinburgh, UK @ Corn Exchange
08.24 Reading, UK @ Reading Festival
08.25 Wetherby, UK @ Leeds Festival
photos by Ramsey Cardy


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Candy House "Elegant" Tower of Gourmet Chocolates
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About this itemA tower of chocolates to tempt the taste buds! Includes a Deluxe Assortment of Chocolates, sweet and salty Caramel Nut Corn and Mint Meltaways.
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I was there for the first night, and let me say it was amazing. They looked so much more vibrant last night than they did even on the DVD from the Royal Albert Hall. Clapton's solos during "Stormy Monday" and "Born Under a Bad Sign" were some of the best I've heard him do. Jack Bruce still has such a powerful voice, and Ginger Baker blew me away with his solo during "Toad." The greatest drummer alive - no question! (Sorry Ringo)
Anywayz, can't wait to see Paul next month to cap off a great concert year. I just wish Clapton would work more with Cream - to finally hear "Tales of Brave Ulysses," "White Room"(With Jack Bruce singing), "NSU," "Sweet Wine," etc. done the way they were meant to be done was just mind blowing. It's also the best version of "Badge" I've ever heard. Jack Bruce's bass lines were unbelievable. (Not to mention Clapton's guitar and singing)
I could go on and on. I will remember every detail of that night forever. (Just as I remember the first time I saw McCartney live)


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Very nice. I looks like this oven has enough top heat to bake a sub 2 minute pie.
Is that snow on the edge of your table Bo? Nice look'in pie man...
John, my issue with this oven has, from the beginning, been about heat balance, not whether or not the top of the pizza can be baked in less than 2 minutes. Between the tall dome and lack of thermal mass in it, the balance skews way too heavily towards the bottom.
That's a nice looking pie from what LITTLE I can see
Question to the group: given the description above, what could I change that would give me better leoparding? That's about the only thing missing, I think, in this pizza.Botrojan
Great feedback, both of you. Much appreciated.I made another pizza later in the evening with a dough that had fermented longer (it was left over, had been frozen and brought back to life over a couple of days) and the leoparding was better ... though it didn't taste any better. Craig, I will try your suggestions. By the way, the pizza was about 12-inch diameter and to be more precise, the dough balls were generally 12.7 to 12.8 ounces. I keep forgetting that imprecise measures aren't best to use on this board Can either of you give me a link to a recipe on this forum for making great VPN dough with bread flour or something other than 00 flour ... that is, something cheaper and more readily accessible?Bo
Craig, do you have a favorite recipe for me (maybe a link to one here within the forum) ... and, as I said before ... one that uses more readily available flour than 00 or the like?
@PN.Pizza ... the Millars oven absolutely holds heat. I've probably given mixed messages on this. The oven maintains heat very well, just not as well as the typical masonry oven, from what I gather. Again, I have not precisely measured and timed the oven's heat retention properties yet, but I will. Seems like I owe it to this community to do so. One of the problems so far is that ALL of my experience with the oven has been in really cold weather. My sense is that this has to affect, at least a little bit, the heat retention properties of the oven. Like I said, I need to do some more precise measuring and will. But the oven easily retains enough heat to make bread ... I have had pretty good luck the few times I've taken advantage of the lower temps on the back end of making pizza, to make bread.


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Garbage disposal smelling up your kitchen? The solution's in your fridge.
Giada turns this traditional Venetian dessert into a refreshing cocktail.
Lemon pie with meringue in a glass: this one's for Alie's "Grampapotamus."
Fried Parmesan Chickpeas hit the spot for Kelsey's late-night snack attack.
Watch to get Kelsey's tips for tender, tasty muffins (with no berry bleed).
Debi and Gabriele's homemade limoncello tastes like Tuscany in a glass.
Giada combines crisp veggies, cornbread and herbs for a refreshing salad.
Michael Symon mixes up the perfect brunch cocktail: Meyer Lemon Basil Fizz.
How to make a lemon drop for grownups.
Chef Roger Mooking discusses salt and shows how to make a flavored salt.
Get Cooking Channel on your TV.


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I feel there's a lack of good brown ales on the market. Thankfully, one of those few, the Red Hook Mudslinger is back.
Here are all the details:
Redhook Mudslinger Brown Ale Returns as Brewery�s Spring Seasonal
Redhook STILL Likes it Dirty
Woodinville, Wash. � Jan. 2, 2013 � In early 2013, Redhook will be bringing back Mudslinger Brown Ale, the brewery�s spring seasonal. Most recently called Nut Brown, this smooth, easy-drinking brown ale is making its return through April in stores and on tap nationwide.�
At the risk of being accused of flip-flopping, Redhook has decided to bring back the Mudslinger name after the beer�s one-time release as Nut Brown last year. For the record, Redhook voted for the name change before he voted against it. But seriously, the whole mudslinging thing is pretty awesome � whether you�re mountain biking, talking trash to your buddies, or throwing a no-holds-barred mudwrestling contest.
�Mudslinger is Redhook�s take on the traditional brown ale style, and it�s the perfect beer for the spring season,� said Redhook senior brewer Alex Kopf.� �After winning a silver at last year�s World Beer Cup, our team is really excited to bring back Mudslinger again this year.�
Dark in color, Mudslinger is refreshingly smooth and highly sessionable. It�s layered with rich malty aromas and flavors of chocolate, caramel, brown sugar and a hint of vanilla. At 5.8% ABV and 30 IBUs, Mudslinger will retail for approximately $7.99-$8.99 per six-pack. Locations selling Mudslinger can be found using Redhook�s beer finder at http://redhook.com/find-beer/.


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Skip to comments.Nun Tells of Healing After Praying to John Paul II
Posted on 01/17/2011 3:40:57 PM PST by Dallas59
AIX-EN-PROVENCE, France A French nun says she felt new inner strength and vitality as her Parkinson's disease suddenly disappeared in 2005 a recovery the Vatican attributes to the miraculous intercession of Pope John Paul II.
Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, who works at a Paris maternity clinic, told reporters in a rare appearance Monday that she felt "reborn" on waking June 3, 2005 after she had prayed for healing to John Paul.
"There was a new strength inside me, and my body was rediscovering its vitality and fluidity," Simon-Pierre, appearing in good health, told reporters in the southern French city of Aix-en-Provence.
The 49-year-old nun who has largely been shielded from the media said she still sometimes talks to John Paul.
"For this news conference, I told him to stay right beside me!" said Simon-Pierre, who appeared smiling and wearing a white habit at the news conference.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Gee, just think what would have happened if she had prayed to Obama.
I have to ask why not just pray to the Father? This is what I as a christian don't get and do not see it as biblical.
How do you pray to a dead human being who was as mortal as everyone else?
Or is this not a CHRISTian denomination?
I totally agree.
Is she a Christian or a Popian?
I do not have to go through a dead person to get to God. Why didn't this person do the same since a dead person does not cure anything?
Your comment is one of the most ignorant ones I have seen in a long time.
Let me answer that for you: she is a Christian who believed in the Lord as her savior. She asked the Pope to pray for her as you would ask a friend to pray for you. She didn't claim Pope JPII healed her. Instead it is the Lord healed her.
Your comment wins the ignorance award for the day & ought to be followed by a barf alert.
I'm glad she got better and I believe all credit goes to God. I have no clue whether JPII had anything to do with it, and neither do any of us, so we can leave it at that.
Personally, I credit JPII with being one of those used by God (including Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl) to bring down the Iron Curtain. For that alone, I think he is a saint. No need to speculate on magic and miracles.
I assume it is the same reason they pray to Mary, aren't they both dead? It seems like a waste of time to me, I mean I am sure they were both very good people, but, they were both people.
Does this fall under you shall have no other Gods before me?
Nuns praying to the dead pope now? Good grief.
I don't pray to dead people.
That is blasphemous.
The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Beato Subito: JPII Beatification Gets Green-Light
Miracle approved for beatification of John Paul II
Former President Bush's memoir will highlight influence of Pope John Paul II
Gingrich Screens Film on Pope John Paul II
John Paul II and Mary (catholic Caucus
Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII move closer to sainthood
SPECIAL: Popes Pius XII, John Paul II declared 'venerable'
Pope John Paul II Step Closer to Possible Beatification
Popes Move Closer to Sainthood [Jews Says Beatification of Pius XII "Thoughtless"]
Benedict XVI to declare John Paul II venerable at the Vatican (12/19)
You wrote:
"I dont pray to dead people. That is blasphemous."
People alive in Christ aren't dead. Get a clue.
I pray to the father through Jesus. Which is the ONLY way in my faith.
You are thinking as humans think — that once a person dies and the body dies — the soul dies too.
Not so, at the moment of our death our soul is brought before God for a particular judgment.
The soul lives on — just as Christ resurrected body lived on.
Or do you not believe in the resurrection of the dead?
Or is this not a CHRISTian denomination?
You might want to read an extraordinary scientific book "Evidence of the After-Life" by Dr. Jeffrey Long about near death experiences.
It's a fascinating subject and verifies that one's soul lives on, even though the body may be dead on the operating table.
You're going to waste your time quoting the Church Fathers to these people?
Don't you know that Christianity came to them fully formed in a pole barn church down by the interstate off-ramp in 1977?
If you need a book besides the bible, it ain't Christian. There are a lot of great Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are the meekest people I have ever met but that doesn't make them Christian.
Here we go with that tired saw: I pray to a man, but it is not to a man, but a man who isn't a man because he is a man, so that means we don't pray to people becuase we are praying to men.
Let it go Vlad, you guys pray to men and that is blasphemous. GeronL is right on the money. Read the nun's claim.
Is that Bhuddism, Shintoism or that other Asian thing where they pray to their ancestors?
Why would anyone pray to a man for healing? Didn't Jesus pay the price for us to begin with...?
I don't believe that this stops, I believe because it is biblical that departed saints pray for us, but I do not pray to my friends or departed loved ones. I pray to My Father who is in heaven, as My LORD Jesus taught me. I do not go through a friend to get my God. I cry out to God when I am in need of healing. I pray for people they pray for me, but I have NEVER prayed asking my friend for healing, no I ask God.
Variations of ancestoral prayer exist in all of those, including Hinduism. Little separates the Catholic view of veneration of "Saints" from this pagan idolatry.
oh they're making him a saint, they got to have "witnesses to miracles"
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD
Talking to the physically deceased is a pagan practice, and never modeled or taught in the NT by Christ or the apostles.. it is a doctrine of men..
I seem to recall someone asking Jesus saying something about letting the dead bury the dead. Follow Him.
What do you think "praying to saints" means? It means exactly that: asking a fellow "saint" to pray to God! God does the healing. Surely you know that.
I'm sorry, but your belief is so wrong. Dead people are dead, your friends are still alive. The Bible says that those in heaven are happy, there is no sadness, or crying. Why? Because, they aren't privy to what's going on here on earth. If they were, there would be much sadness and tears shed.
I realize that Catholics use this asking a friend to pray for you to show their ignorance of the Bible. It says there is one mediator between God and man - notice ONE, not many. The Scripture about a great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews is also misconstrued and taken out of context. No where in the Bible do we read where the early Christians or apostles prayed to anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
You wrote:
"I pray to the father through Jesus."
So do I.
"Which is the ONLY way in my faith."
Your faith is unorthodox. Mine is orthodox. We ask the saints to pray for us.
You wrote:
"Here we go with that tired saw: I pray to a man, but it is not to a man, but a man who isnt a man because he is a man, so that means we dont pray to people becuase we are praying to men."
I ask the saints to intercede for me. It's just that simple.
"Let it go Vlad, you guys pray to men and that is blasphemous."
I ask the saints to intercede for me and it is not blasphemous.
"GeronL is right on the money. Read the nuns claim."
GeronL is not right and not orthodox. Neither are you.
You wrote:
"Deuteronomy 18:10-12..."
No saints at that time.
"Talking to the physically deceased is a pagan practice, and never modeled or taught in the NT by Christ or the apostles.. it is a doctrine of men.."
The communion of saints is a gift from God.
Did you evene read that link? It has quotes from the Bible too.
The unquestionable evidence of numerous miracles within the Catholic Church is always really just an article of envy for those stuck in Churches without them. The only psychological defense mechanism they have is to deny they exist because to acknowledge them would have catastrophic implications for their belief systems.
We pray to Pope John 23rd for a miracle through Jesus Christ, always.
He's dead Jim.
Christians don't "pray" to dead people.
"What do you think "praying to saints" means? It means exactly that: asking a fellow "saint" to pray to God! God does the healing. Surely you know that. "
1. No verse in the Bible encourages asking departed saints to pray for us.
2. No evidence exists [that I've seen] that this was an Apostolic practice during lives of the original Apostles.
3. No evidence exists that departed saints can hear you when you give them a shout.
As such, I can only conclude this is an accretion, added hundreds of years later, but was never part of the Church.
Who do you think my post was poking fun at? Read it again.
I thought you were talking about the link. You, if you are a scientist, would enjoy this book. Dr. Long talks about how the American Medical Association did not have much evidence about the afterlife and near death experiences. He did an exhaustive study and has a superb website with testimonies of people who actually died, floated above their bodies watching the medical personnel try to bring them back to life, go through a tunnel, see a bright, bright light, meet relatives who had passed away and told them to go back to their bodies because they still had work to do on earth.
Dr. Jeffrey Long became a believer in these NDEs after his through reseatch. Surely you have read about some of them.
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two witnesses John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijahs appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be like angels in heaven. This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peters prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 Paul says I remember you constantly in my prayers.
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 the author writes, Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Rev. 1:4 this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The 24 elders are said to refer to the people of God perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the four living creatures are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood on those who dwell upon the earth. These are imprecatory prayers, which are pleas for Gods judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers rise up before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his childrens requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Old Testament
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing Gods will.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on Gods behalf.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 15:1 the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
And as for evidence: ... whew, lots! But more later, I'm outta here to eat some pork. Blessings and BBQ, friend.
Contemplate the tagline. Nobody ever said we stoip being part of the Body when we are... ahem... departed saints. That means we haave a living connection to each other! Always! Love ya!
Good point.
I meant Pope John Paul II
Er....perhaps not. ;O)
I never turn down prayer from someone on earth!
As for evidence - you'll not find it in the Bible:
1. No verse that commands we pray to departed saints
2. No verse that encourages us to pray to departed saints
3. No verse that demonstrates Christians praying to departed saints.
If you have ANY 1st century references to praying to departed saints, please share them after your pork eating. :-)
Beyond those two sources, you might as well pray to a tree and tell us God made creation to echo our prayers. It is an argument from silence. I don't find those persuasive - any more than the apparitions of Mary appearing on toast.
In the meantime, we are commanded to pray to the Father and commanded to pray in the Son's name. We are told HE is our ONE mediator.
Nowhere are we told that any particular saint has more "leverage" with God than any other saint.
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