text:
by Phil Johnson
Without question, the most common complaint I hear from my charismatic friends about the Strange Fire conference is, "You always paint with a broad brush!"
I hate being pedantic, but I can't resist pointing out that such a criticism itself is a fairly sweeping overstatement. It's true that some broad generalizations were made during the conference. Language without nuance can sometimes be useful to make one's meaning forcefully clear (Jesus often used hyperbole for emphasis).
But it can also have the opposite effect, especially in a hotly contested family dispute. This is one of the first lessons young husbands learn—sometimes the hard way.
For that very reason, I don't much like generalizations in a context like this. I therefore tried in my seminars to be very specific. For example, in a breakout session titled "Is There a Baby in the Charismatic Bathwater?" my main goal was to explain as precisely as possible why we don't believe there is a safe zone in the whole universe of charismatic conviction. I also wanted to explain why we believe some of the finest and best-known Reformed non-cessationists are unwittingly providing cover for aberrant people and movements in some of the most problematic districts of the charismatic community. I quoted, named, and documented a fair number of specifics.
So far no one has played any sound bite from my seminar and complained that I personally was guilty of broad brushing. The main grievance against me has been precisely the opposite. I was too specific. Did I really need to criticize certain leading Reformed continuationists by name?
Still, I am quite happy to agree wholeheartedly with our critics about one important thing: Broad-brush arguments alone are not a sufficient answer to the problem Strange Fire attempts to address. But I also want to challenge fair-minded people to look further than the sound bites you hear critics of the conference repeatedly citing. There certainly was more substance to the conference than a few cherry-picked sound bites. Once again, those who say all the arguments set forth in the conference were applied with an industrial-size roller are themselves making an unfair generalization.
Let me add this: It took a spectacular lack of self-awareness, blended with a stunning ignorance of the actual concerns we are raising (or a prodigious dose of chutzpah), for Michael Brown to coax from Sam Storms an effusive endorsement of Mike Bickle, just minutes after Brown played sound bites from other Strange Fire speakers and scolded me with the you-shouldn't-lump-us-all-together stanza of the broad-brush complaint. Dr. Storms boldly and emphatically held Bickle up as a spiritual model to follow, suggesting that Bickle is John Piper's equal in piety and gospel clarity.
There's your answer, in case you are still wondering why some of the speakers at Strange Fire refused to pause and draw a hard-line distinction every single time they mentioned Reformed continuationists. Why don't we automatically exempt our Reformed charismatic brethren from all the criticisms we aim at the lunatic mainstream in Third Wave, word-faith, drunken-glory, and holy-laughter fraternities? Why don't we portray mild continuationism as a perfectly safe middle road? Why don't we just shut up and let our charismatic brothers and sisters who are Reformed or conservative evangelicals follow after whatever miracle-claims and charismatic prophecies they like?
Well, let's review:
Sam Storms is one of the most frequently cited names whenever anyone lists the soundest theologians in the continuationist camp. Dr. Storms is a Calvinist in the tradition of S. Lewis Johnson. He's a gracious, likable, kindhearted, and usually well-spoken man who is supposed to be living proof that someone can be Reformed, charismatic, and biblically responsible all at once.
Mike Bickle is the founder of Kansas City's International House of Prayer (IHOP). Bickle is also the guy who admits with a grin that 80 percent of the phenomena in the thousands of charismatic meetings he has sponsored and participated in have been utterly false—phony, fraudulent, fleshly—totally and completely fake. Bickle insists that's not a problem. He is willing to "allow the false for the sake of the real."
Bickle and Storms worked together as mentors to the Kansas City Prophets during the prophets' rise to fame and fall into moral disgrace. The leading figures associated with that movement (and by most accounts the most gifted of the bunch) were Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Both of them suffered scandalous moral failures. Neither Bickle nor Storms (nor any of the self-styled prophets) saw it coming.
Another leading figure in the prophecy movement of those days was Rick Joyner, head of MorningStar ministries (home of the "Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey" and other worse nonsense). Joyner is frequently seen these days with Michael Brown discussing various topics ranging from politics to Pentecostal phenomena. Dr. Brown has given every indication that he is a close pal of Joyner's.
Joyner personally engineered the public restoration and return to ministry of Todd Bentley, the adulterous, biker-booted heretic who (in terms of fame and influence) is arguably the single most hideous corruption of "ministry" the charismatic movement has yet produced. Bentley is a living blasphemy and a walking reproach.
In other words, the Todd Bentley madness and the worst abuses of charismatic prophecy are much more closely connected to Michael Brown's circle of fellowship than Brown and Storms want to admit. There's really only one degree of separation between Michael Brown and Todd Bentley.
So Sam Storms gives fulsome praise to Mike Bickle; Michael Brown collaborates with Rick Joyner. They are like Aaron and Hur—holding up the arms of these prophets who freely admit to prophesying falsely. Meanwhile Bickle spreads havoc among naïve charismatics with phony phenomena and false prophecies. And Joyner aggressively promotes a wanton spiritual menace.
But note well where Brown and Storms aim their criticism. They both doggedly insist that the nuttiness of popular charismania is overblown by critics like me.
Dr. Brown says he is totally unaware of some of the most egregiously false prophecies and bizarre shenanigans we have specifically pointed out to him—even though these things are happening right under his nose. Yet he wants the critics (and me in particular) to trust him when he says he is confident that the charismatic movement worldwide consists mainly of people with sound faith and sober minds who are godly, biblically literate, informed believers. Sure, he'll admit that there are occasional "extremes and imbalances"—but Dr. Brown refuses to say that the prosperity gospel is a damnable false gospel, or that it's dangerous to follow the lead of unhinged charismatics like Bickle and Joyner.
Frankly, I don't own a brush broad enough to paint that mess. Is it reasonable to believe that the best and brightest charismatics are seriously concerned about what's biblical—while these men give Mike Bickle and the modern prophecy movement a ringing public endorsement and balk at acknowledging that the charismatic movement is beset with very serious problems?
Are they even capable of recognizing "extremes and imbalances" when they see them? Remember, Dr. Storms worked with, and affirmed the supposed gifting of, the charismatic movement's most famous prophets for years, and apparently none of them had enough genuine discernment to realize that their main prophetic guru (Paul Cain) was a drunkard, a homosexual, and a fraud. When it comes to discerning charismatic claims and distinguishing truth from make-believe, Dr. Storms is frighteningly naïve.
During the Brownsville Revival (a fiasco which Michael Brown insists was a mighty work of God, even though the host church was left as spiritually and financially desolate as Detroit), Dr. Brown was so adept at causing people to be "slain in the Spirit" that his nickname was "Knock ′em Down Brown."
These men have indeed seen and participated in the dark side of the charismatic movement. Perhaps readers will understand why I'm skeptical of their cheery optimism about the overall state of the movement.
The false doctrines and bad practices that dominate charismatic television are not confined to one corrupt branch on an otherwise good tree. In reality, both historically and by direct line of descent, the whole movement stems from a rotten root. Error and delusion are the phloem and xylem of its central belief system.
I don't mean that as hyperbole. That's the point we are trying to make.
(NOTE: I received an e-mail from Dr. Storms correcting some inaccuracies in the original version of this post. He informed me that Rick Joyner was never an actual member of the Kansas City Prophets, nor did Dr. Storms meet him more than once or have any influence as his teacher or mentor. Dr. Storms also wanted me to make clear that he has not seen or spoken with Paul Cain in over a decade and does not in any way endorse him now as a true prophet. I've also clarified a few phrases that were ambiguous. I apologize to Dr. Storms for both the inaccuracies and the ambiguities. I do not want to misrepresent his position.)
(NOTE: I received an e-mail from Dr. Storms correcting some inaccuracies in the original version of this post. He informed me that Rick Joyner was never an actual member of the Kansas City Prophets, nor did Dr. Storms meet him more than once or have any influence as his teacher or mentor. Dr. Storms also wanted me to make clear that he has not seen or spoken with Paul Cain in over a decade and does not in any way endorse him now as a true prophet. I've also clarified a few phrases that were ambiguous. I apologize to Dr. Storms for both the inaccuracies and the ambiguities. I do not want to misrepresent his position.)
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You use a fine brush to paint a lot of detail in my opinion! Thanks brother!
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Phil thanks for your awesome work in the ministry and for John's. I have the complete set of NT commentaries and a large number of books from GTY that I have bought over the years. I enjoyed the conference and the direct approach of dealing with doctrine. I value your opinions and appreciate your defense of the Gospel. That being said I still struggle with being a continuationist!!!! I have no problem with saying what we see in modern charismatic movement is not only contrary to scripture but should be openly rebuked.
My questioning about it really centers around the tribulation period. During the tribulation period, will the two witnesses that stand up have the gift of tongues? The TRUE GIFT of tongues not the mombo jumbo that the Pentecostal movement is trying to deceive people with. Also do the Angels have that gift? Do they speak in a language that everyone understands them in their own language? I guess I struggle with those questions really is the only reason I am not ok with saying the gifts have stopped? Not sure what the heck that makes me in terms of the gifts.... By the way VERY NICE job by everyone involved in the conference. YOU GUYS HANDLED A TOUGH SUBJECT out of love, motivated by the right reasons, even though it is politically incorrect to do so. THANK YOU ALL. May God continue to bless you
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My questioning about it really centers around the tribulation period. During the tribulation period, will the two witnesses that stand up have the gift of tongues? The TRUE GIFT of tongues not the mombo jumbo that the Pentecostal movement is trying to deceive people with. Also do the Angels have that gift? Do they speak in a language that everyone understands them in their own language? I guess I struggle with those questions really is the only reason I am not ok with saying the gifts have stopped? Not sure what the heck that makes me in terms of the gifts.... By the way VERY NICE job by everyone involved in the conference. YOU GUYS HANDLED A TOUGH SUBJECT out of love, motivated by the right reasons, even though it is politically incorrect to do so. THANK YOU ALL. May God continue to bless you
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Thanks Phil! Very helpful... I was thinking through this the other day as well when I came across Titus 1:12b-13a, "'Cretans are always liars, evil beats, lazy gluttons.' This testimony is true." Paul was obviously not affirming that every single Cretan was a liar, evil, and lazy, since this would also put Christians who were Cretans into that category. It's understood that he was speaking categorically of the whole. As you noted, "language with nuance can sometimes be useful to make one's meaning forcefully clear." That seems to be exactly what Paul does in Titus.
I listened to the podcast of you and Dr. Brown on his radio show discussing the Strange Fire Conference and I must say you have been blessed with incredible patience. Thanks for the work you all are doing at GTY in exposing these folks.
I can certainly understand your exasperation at charismatics not wanting to exercise discernment. It has been something that has bothered me about them for a long time. I was actually engaged to a charismatic girl in the Assemblies of God, and while I loved her dearly, it bothered me that people in her church did not call out some men who were obviously false teachers who people in her church knew were false teachers.
Still, I do think we need to be careful about the broad brush. For example, take this statement:
"Why don't we automatically exempt our Reformed charismatic brethren from all the criticisms we aim at the lunatic mainstream in Third Wave, word-faith, drunken-glory, and holy-laughter fraternities?"
The obvious answer to that is the reason we should automatically exempt them is because they have different positions. We should seek to listen to them, and critique what they say, and not make assumptions that just because they have lapses in judgment that you can somehow use the same arguments as wackos like Benny Hinn. Fairness, and, dare I say, integrity, demand that, at very least, you *do* automatically assume that they are exempt from the same criticism until they make the same error. There is at least one distinction which I am hope you would agree with-Piper and Storms are Christians, and Bentley and Hinn are not. That is one criticism Piper and Storms are quite exempt from.
More than that, I think we need to be careful of statements like "charismatics believe in new revelation." It is true, there are quacks that do believe such things. However, the charismatics that I have run into try to make a distinction between prophecy and word of knowledge on the one hand, and revelation on the other. How they can hold that position together, I don't know. That is why I am not a charismatic. However, in all fairness, there is a distinction that must be acknowledged [though not necessarily thought of as coherent], if we are to be fair.
Turning this around, one might use is the fact that John MacArthur is a dispensationalist, and so is Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsay. And yet, I have heard John MacArthur say some of the same things I have heard those quacks say. I have never heard John MacArthur condemn these men's teachings. It would be very easy [and tempting, given some of the unfair criticisms of dispensationalism today] to lump you all together, and make broad sweeping statements. A lot of people do that, and it is wrong and unfair. Especially with brothers in Christ, we need to be careful how we represent them. Discernment with out wisdom and fairness can become a monster. Again, this does not excuse Michael Brown, or any of the other charismatics for their extremes in the other direction. I firmly believe there are problems there. However, we need to show fairness and Godly patience so God will hopefully show them what is in their blind spot.
Adam: The operative word there is "automatically." See context.
Phillip Johnson,
About the only thing I can figure [and I do want to understand and fairly represent you] is that you are saying that there are those who would say that we should *never* levy the same individual criticism against Reformed continuationists that we do against the wackos that believe in things like holy laughter. The problem is, I have never heard anyone say that. What I *have* heard people say is, if you do make the same criticism of both sides, there needs to be a fair and concerted effort to make sure that you distinguish between the different kinds of charismatics, so that, when you do say that both the Reformed continuationists and the quacks on TBN are guilty of the same thing, you will not be misunderstood as lumping those two into the same group.
For example, if you go get Benny Hinn's Good Morning Holy Spirit and John Piper's The Justification of God, the difference between the two is night and day. If you go to a service with Benny Hinn presiding and a service with John Piper presiding, the difference, is, again, night and day. Without that recognition, rightly or wrongly, it can seem as though you are lumping the two together. I have actually had that complaint raised against me before, so I know that such a misunderstanding is possible. For example, when I talk about dispensationalism, I am always clear to distinguish Hal Lindsay, Jack Van Impe and their ilk from John MacArthur and my former theology professor Dr. John Feinberg, because one time someone thought I was equating MacArthur with Jack Van Impe. However, having done so, I will be more than happy to say that the church/Israel distinction both groups make is wrong, that their inserting of gaps everywhere is wrong, and other points that both have in common.
I would say, especially at a conference where, as Dr. MacArthur said, you are trying to define the body of Christ, and say [rightly I believe] that quacks like Todd Bentley are not part of the body of Christ, in can be extremely misleading to make the same criticism of both reformed charismatics and the TBN quacks without first taking the care to distinguish. I understand, as you can see so clearly in your own mind what you are trying to say, but it is possible to be misunderstood when proper distinctions are not made, as I myself have found out.
However, that also doesn't address the problem of saying that charismatics believe continuing revelation. Many do not. I would say that *is* an example of broadbrushing. Yes, I agree, it is inconsistent for the not to believe in continuing revelation, but, to be fair, there are charismatics that try to hold that there is no continuing revelation today.
Hi Adam: I'm not entirely on-board with Jack Van Impe, but, especially in light of your over-all point that you are making to Phil here, how is it that you are comfortable calling Hal Lindsay a "quack"? (I have absolutely no problem with Phil's points, by the way. I am a member of Grace Community Church and I attended the Strange Fire Conference, and everything I heard and was taught was biblically accurate--as is always the case with John MacArthur and those in his circle. The outrages of the charismatic movement were perhaps not even exposed enough--if that were possible.)
Dear Phil. You are sorely missed at Team Pyro. Thanks for a great post and for your boldnesss together with staff at Grace in making this an issue. It was way overdue and it needed the heavy treatment that it got because it is a global issue of epidemic proportion in spite of what the critics are claiming. It needed a broad brush treatment because it has been running unchecked like a forest fire for a decade at least. Those who should be helping to put it out are instead giving it fuel. I was amazed to find out recently that Michael Brown not only endorsed Brownsville but was a protagonist. He also endorsed Cindy Jacobs in a pre-conference attack of the SF conference. Thanks to the prompting of James White I watched a clip of a girl named Alison from Brownsville - readers please watch it because this is what is passing as a move of God's Spirit these days. I remember Cindy J coming to southern africa some years ago and holding meetings in Zimbabwe where she "prophesied" about the imminent flourishing of the nation. Her prophecy was emblazoned on posters that people put up in their homes - I actually saw one. The diammetrically opposite thing happened after that. Zimbabwe became probably the poorest country in the world, with no vaild currency and farmers had to leave their homes and possessions and run for their lives. I remember churches in SA sending missions teams to Zim to help feed people who had nothing to eat in their homes. many Zimbabweans have left their homeland. yet the false prophetess still gets an endorsement from a vocal critic of the conference (because the test is Grudem's vineyard version and not Deut 18) and makes regular appearances on local "christian TV". The same Dr Brown also happens to believe that the manifestations in that clip are a move of the HOLY SPIRIT? Someone is WAY off the mark here and if he and Dr Storms are the best examples of scholarly sanity amongst the movement the rest of us are either very deceived or we are in big trouble and hence the need for a conference like this.
Adam (#6 & #8),
I think the "broad brush" is appropriate because there is a common theological problem: charismatics believe that God continues to speak today by means other than Scripture. Although we know some charismatic brethren try to distinguish "prophecy" from revelation (a fact that was observed many times during the conference), the result is the same: they believe God continues to speak outside of Scripture. Once people are open to God speaking through so-called "prophecy", even if they admit that "prophecy" must be tested because it is subject to error, objectivity is lost, and they are now at the mercy of people's "discernment" which becomes hopelessly subjective. So, I think you're being too generous to say they have different positions. I think the difference is superficial because the core problem is the same cancer. The differences are in degree and terminology, not in substance. John Piper's inability to immediately dismiss the "prophecy" that his wife would die in childbirth stems from the same theological problem as the people who "prophesy" on TBN. Phil is right in saying it all comes from the same rotten root.
(1) Listening to the audio link provided in the post, their glowing endorsement of Mike Bickle as a man who is humble, self-effacing, Bible-centered, Gospel oriented... People say the same things about the Pope. Does that mean we should listen/follow the Pope too?
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. (Titus 1:16)
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)
(2) Regarding, them stating there is a difference between a false prophet and someone who claims to be a Christian prophesying falsely, is a lie intended to deceive their listeners (Colossians 2:4).
God's Word about this is clear and God is not a man that He should lie:
1 John 4:1; Jeremiah 14:14; Jeremiah 29:8; Matthew 7:15; 2 Peter 2:1; Ephesians 5:6,7; Mark 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:3
(3) Regarding Rick Joyner, Phil Johnson forgot to mention that Rick Joyner is also a member of the Knights of Malta.
Source: http://www.morningstarministries.org/about/questions-and-answers/knights-malta-rick-joyner#.Um_mpXAQa4s
The Knights of Malta is a Catholic Order whose leader is a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church and its allegiance is to the Pope.
Source: http://www.knightsofmalta.com/
(Do some simple searching on Google and you will find Rick Joyner announcing it to his congregation and then encouraging them to join the Knights of Malta too.)
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecc 12:13)
Thank you Phil for your strong stance. I have family members who are caught up in this movement. I so long for straightforward language about this that will get their attention. I watched the live stream, almost the whole thing here from Houston, Texas. I'm glad you are one to take some heat for us. I hate to add to the heat, but I think we might all need it. I did hear boos and hisses during the conference. I wonder if we don't encourage that sometimes with our tone and some leading inferences. It seems like there maybe some corrective notes you could add about approach that would be helpful.
Dear George,
Do you mean the kinds of "boos and hisses" you see on Twitter, or audible boos from the audience at the conference? Because I didn't hear any boos in the auditorium. There were a few gasps and rumblings at times when some fact was cited or video was shown that shocked people--but the disapproval wasn't aimed at the conference speakers. In fact, I have to say, the feedback from the people who actually came to the conference was completely positive. One man challenged me vigorously a couple of times between sessions, but even he was polite and friendly. I didn't detect the slightest whiff of ill will.
Nevertheless, I think I know what you are saying, and yes, I do think an ugly tone can undermine even the best of arguments. I know I'm not always the best judge of how my own "tone" comes across. When I was writing at Pyromaniacs, "tone" complaints were too common to blow off completely. And in Dr. Storms's email to me, he admonished me to dial back the rhetoric.
I take the point, but I also wrestle with the fact that we live in postmodern times where honest, virile dialogue has been eclipsed by an effeminate and unbiblical notion of artificial cordiality. We speak of "transparency" (which has a fragile and gossamer sound) rather than "honesty," which is more how truth should be handled. Today's tone police would almost certainly cry foul against virtually every biblical writer and prophet. Paul might be jailed for hate crimes over Titus 1:12-13, which (let's face it:) paints with a fairly broad brush.
Still, for the record: I appreciate candor; I don't approve of deliberately insulting language. Sometimes the former is interpreted by the recipient as the latter. That's unfortunate, but not a sufficient reason to be less than truthful.
At the end of the day, I AM more concerned with the truth than I am with whether people think meek-and-mild is the only way to represent Jesus properly. I hope and believe that the time is coming in this over-tolerant culture where voices of candor WILL be the voices that are heard. It would seem to me that if true communication is ever going to take place again, there HAS to be a shift like that.
Due to the length of this comment, I will need to submit two posts.
I have some questions. I have posed these and other questions by attempting to post them on other GTY blogs re Strange Fire, but apparently my blogs have been rejected, because they were never actually posted. I find this very disturbing, especially given the fact that virtually every blog that has been posted is complimentary to John MacArthur and the Strange Fire conference. I am hoping that you will not continue this course of action.
So as to not waste my time and yours, I will ask only the first of my questions here. If it does not get posted and answered, I guess there is little point in asking the rest of them. So here goes .....
I have listened to Mr. MacArthur's presentation, and I have read everything I can find about Strange Fire and all of the varied responses thereto. Regardless of Dr. MacArthur's intent, most people seem to feel that he lumped all Charismatics together into a group. He then stated that they are "largely" (his words) not part of the Body of Christ. This statement can only have one meaning. He must mean that most of the people who identify themselves as Charismatics are not Christian. They are therefore by definition not saved.
I did not begin my spiritual journey in the Charismatic arena. I accepted Christ in a mainline conservative non-denominational Bible teaching church. Probably a church much like yours. My wife accepted Christ there too.
Over the last three decades, my wife and I have gradually and slowly gravitated towards a more Charismatic mindset, and, while we have serious issues with the fringe element in the Charismatic movement, we now consider ourselves Charismatic, both in theology and application. We do not agree with cessationism, and we value our dynamic and experiential relationship with Jesus. Just so you know, we do not bark, howl, or handle snakes, but we have been known to shout for joy from time to time. I am laughing at myself, now.
Thank you so much for taking your time to give this lengthy response. Your thoughts on this are of great value to me and I hope all of us.
I agree with you that it is time to stand and speak the truth on this in terms that any who hears will not mistake its meaning. I am biblically and experientially aware that many will be upset when that that has been the status quo for so long, is confronted. I believe you to be in a group of men who handle confrontation very well. My concern however, is with the audience response to a comment made about one of the known false teachers. I heard boos and I think hisses. I believe it was one of John's openings.
Sometimes I am guilty of an attitude that I think I heard on display, so I may be more sensitive to it than some. I hope my tone is respectful as I bring this to you.
I would not like to be in your shoes right now. I am glad you are willing to take the tremendous criticism as your love for the church is on display.
This is the second part of my post...please read both parts together.
As I listen to both the words and inflections of John MacArthur's statements, it seems clear to me that he is saying that we are not part of the Body of Christ, and therefore he must be saying we are not saved.
What kind of theology would allow for even an intimation that this is true of us? I can come up with only two possibilities. Either John MacArthur believes that my wife's and my original salvation was not a true salvation, or he believes that, while we were once saved, we have lost that salvation.
If this observation pertained just to me and my wife, the answer would be easy. But the fact of the matter is that virtually every Charismatic person I know has had the same history...saved in the mainline Church, but then gradually migrating to a Charismatic mindset.
So, then, the question. What does John MacArthur believe to be true about me, my wife, and my Charismatic friends? Are we saved or not? From what theology does his belief emanate?
Please do not try to answer the question by saying "well, that depends" or "we do not know you". After the "largely" statement and the other tacit and even explicit generalizations made at Strange Fire, I really feel a more direct and straightforward answer is warranted.
I am not trying to be antagonistic here. I am deeply and profoundly concerned about the way this whole controversy is affecting the Body. And before I decide how to decide, I need to ask this and other questions.
Thank you for considering my request, even if you choose not to respond.
Steve Carlton,
I didn't get what your actual question was. But let me respond to some of the things you said:
We don't censor comments just because they are negative or at variance with our opinion. We would only censor profanity, intentional insults, off-topic posts, over-the-top anger, or things of that variety. I'm sorry your earlier comment[s] didn't post. I'm not part of the process, so I won't speculate about what may have happened. But if you'll read the comments again, you'll discover that they are not all "complimentary to John MacArthur and the Strange Fire conference." That's no doubt the majority opinion, because a lot of our ministry's partners and supporters hang out here. But we do try to be fair with dissent.
Perhaps your question had to do with the rationale behind the suggestion that a large number of charismatics are not truly converted. Read Matthew 7:13-14; 22-23. I think further that John MacArthur's opinion on that point is based on the absence of a sound biblical message in virtually all the major charismatic media outlets and megachurches; the prevalence of the prosperity gospel in charismatic strongholds worldwide (even places like Africa, Latin America, Haiti, India, etc.); a general gospel ignorance among professing evangelicals of all kind; plus the fact that the simple gospel is either downplayed, left out, or twisted in volume after volume of charismatic literature.
Non-charismatic evangelicalism is not exactly in a stellar state, either, to be perfectly candid. We get that point. But we say what we can about that as well, decrying pragmatism of all kinds at every opportunity.
Praise God for the coming together of these Godly men who will stand for the truth at the Strange Fire Conf. That is Love.
I have read two comments by you on on the October 23 blog "What Now?"(#12,17) and then Travis Allen graciously responded to your questions (#18). So, GTY has not been unfair with regard to that question at least. Your question here is similar to that one, so you have been answered. Perhaps not to your liking, but you have received an answer.
After reading your comments, it's appears to me that you take MacArthur's statements about the world-wide Charismatic movement as a personal attack. They obviously are not. But, given the abundant evidence that the movement world-wide is awash in false teachers promoting false doctrine particularly about the Gospel, there is good reason to make this statement.
Frankly, as Phil has stated, the entire evangelical movement is populated by many who think they are saved who probably are not because they have believed in a false Gospel. (That's another issue GTY and MacArthur have already addressed many times).
So, I would urge you to do what we all should: examine yourself to see if you are in the faith as Paul instructs (2 Cor. 13:5).
Let me also say this: you and others continually object to what you call "generalizations." Well, a generalization is something that is true of a significant majority of individuals within a group. I think that a major objective of the SF conference was to provide evidence that most of the modern Charismatic/Pentecostal movement around the world is awash in damnable heresy that is an affront to the Holy Spirit. It's my view that the SFC went a long way to establishing that. Whether or not this generalization applies to you cannot be answered by Phil or John MacArthur since they don't know you personally. They don't know what you are trusting in for your salvation. Of course, I trust that you do.
I trust that you have believed in the true Gospel of justification by faith alone in Christ and His cross work. I trust that the Jesus you have placed your faith in is the true Jesus of the Gospels. If your faith is genuine saving faith, then your life and doctrine will reflect that when examined by the truth of the NT.
By the way, your name seems familiar to me, perhaps from many years ago.
Blessings to you.
Mr. Steve Carlton; (now, this is written in love, please know that)
Sir, nice to meet you, my name is Mike Kennedy.
So, since God is in control of everything, I think He would just like me to get to the point of why I believe you really need to ask God to show you what things of the char. beliefs are wrong and what the Bible really says....courtesy of God who uses John and others to do so. I prefer John, myself; there is no other man who is totally taught and capable to do the job on interpreting God's Word. Been listening to him for over 34 yrs.
I was 28 when God called me and now I am 62..(been around ) and because I asked God to show me what I needed to know and why, He has graciously been answering me these last 34+ yrs.....mainly because He is in CHARGE of me and knows what I need when I need it..in His timing alone.
First, after salvation, He left me in the char. realm and listen to John, for 10 yrs., not to punish me or confuse me, but to let me genuinely KNOW FOR SURE what was in fact the truth about Him and His Word. Stuff that was confusing like; tongues, any more revelations from God, sanctification, losing salvation (coming out of catholicism, that guilt trip is lonnnnng),etc.,etc, etc..
See, what I thankfully learned is that, ok, God is going to see if I can pass this faith- test-thing, (and He will) or will He just let me be God to myself, and let me think whatever I learn is right cause I think it is. I know for a fact, He WANTS TO TEACH YOU EVERYTHING NOW AND FOREVER MORE!!! Prov. 3-5,6. And if you don't let Him do that, you will be caught up in the wrong stuff and not believe the truth when it comes to you because your pride will think you know it already. And you may, IF (biggest word in the dictionary) you do know all that Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic that's in that Bible.
And although He will try to stop you from dragging yourself into the WRONG stuff (especially) about the Holy Spirit, you won't because of that pride that will cause Jesus to say what He said in Matt. 7-21. I had it happen to me, sir, and it was a BIG shock of fear that took a while to wear off, and I don't wish that on anyone. I call it , "having the spiritual rug pulled out from under you". The first time I was frightened for 4 months....and the second time... Once you've been there and again, it's still scary, but hopefully not as long.
Yes, God loves us, sure, but what happened to the disciples that booked after they supposedly got saved????? God's not looking for perfection, but direction, as CLOSE to perfection as we can get. But He knows it'll never happen, but if He stops us in our tracks when we're on the wrong road, it IS for our good. Maybe this is something to stop you? HE stopped me, cause He knew I would listen and ask questions and change.....HE is in charge, so I would let Him. (I suggest checking out John's sermons on your questionable items, they will really help......they did me)God bless
For those readers/listeners who continue to think/insist that Phil Johnson, et al. brought up fringe Charismatics, or things from the past that the Charismatic community has already sufficiently dealt with, etc., here is Rick Joyner LAST WEEK on his TV program 'Prophetic Perspective on Current Events' with his good friend Todd Bentley, talking about the "revival healing angel" that visited him, and Bob Jones' "the angel of the wings of change", the glory of God coming down like a canopy, manifesting gold all over the floor, bed, raining gold, everywhere from this angel, boasting of their supposed signs and wonders in South Africa...
LIES, LIES, LIES, and more LIES:
Oct 21, 2013, Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley:
Oct 22, 2013, Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley:
Oct 23, 2013, Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley:
Oct 24, 2013, Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley:
Thus says the Lord God: "Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! (Ezekiel 13:3)
They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, 'Thus says the Lord!' But the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. (Ezekiel 13:6)
An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
For he flatters himself in his own eyes, when he finds out his iniquity and when he hates.
The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
He devises wickedness on his bed; he sets himself in a way that is not good; he does not abhor evil. (Psalm 36:1-4)
More from God's Word is Truth:
2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Jeremiah 23:16; Jeremiah 7:24; Jeremiah 9:3
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1)
Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. (Mark 13:5)
Great article, Phil, well done..and those links..phew (!)
I guess the work of actually investigating a thing makes taking the broad generalization a much less resistant path..it would seem. The flames of this "broad brush" have been smoldering for weeks now and all attempts to stomp them out, as such, seem more and more futile (at least to our naked eye). You've done a fine job here and in your conference messages, Phil, all the messages were Golden, but there are some deaf ears out there that need true miracle healing. (I say that knowing my own "hearing" is far from fully developed!)
I just don't get it.. how is it that people hear so differently what was presented so clearly and articulately at this conference? I don't mean everyone was supposed to come away in absolute agreement with ev-er-y-thing presented, and I realize there are people not so familiar with MacArthur's preaching and strong stance, (he is after all one of the last men standing strong for the Faith) but seriously..for anyone to say for instance that he proclaimed ALL charismatics are going to hell..? (that is if one had actually listened to him). Preposterous. One only needed pay the slightest attention to the context of his words (and the videos in the mix) and it would have been clear that's not what he meant. And people are upset about his "nothing good ever came out of the charismatic movement" comment. I understood that to mean he was not talking about the Common Grace that God continues to make available to all men-even through false movements and religions; but "good" as in true Righteousness, true Holiness and a True Gospel that truly saves. Finally, the consistent misrepresentations of what true cessationism isand is not as charismatic leaders/bloggers and commentors continue propagating a cessationism that says God has ceased doing miracles, or ceased healing, or the Spirit has ceased His work in us, or ceased gifting His church etc... These are false and tiresome representations of cessationism. (may I suggest an excellent article explaining these things: http://thecripplegate.com/what_cessationism_is_not/ )
I really appreciate what Pastor Clint Archer said: "The difficulties the church encounters—from persecution to petty squabbles—are opportunities for us to grow closer to the Lord and closer to each other, as our faith is tested and tempered...And let us never have our compassion deadened to the point where we relish a fight, where we gloat in perceived victory, or be guilty of savoring the smell of theological napalm in the morning. (source: http://thecripplegate.com/the-smell-of-napalm/#comment-1099813726 )
In the end we must all get along--because we have been given all that we need by the Spirit to work joyfully in the Spirit to maintain unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, doing all in humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love.
Let me briefly throw my two cents in...
ALL pentecostals and charismatics have a common origin, namely Azusa Street, and before that Charles Fox Parham's Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas. Don't believe anyone who says that the charismatic movement began spontaneously in the 1960s. It did not. It was the result of a deliberate strategy by the pentecostals to bring their beliefs and practices into the mainstream.
If you study what happened at these events, you have to come to the conclusion that it was all fake, promoted by liars and charlatans. There was never anything genuine there. The "tree" is poisoned and all its "fruit" are bad.
Yes, there are good men who have been deceived by this - Piper and Storms amongst others - but they are part of a family which includes some very dubious members, and whose ancestors were basically crooks.
I have been listening to Grace to You for over 25 years and it has made an enormous impact on my life. I have talked to people who have called John MacArthur unloving and an "in your face" person, but they have taken his sermons out of context without hearing the whole message. John IS loving and passionate for truth, and sometimes people don't take the time to hear all that he has said. This is especially true when people listen to a portion on social media of what John has said and not the whole message. I challenge people that make that claim to visit the Grace to You website and listen to the entire message. I believe John cares more about exalting Christ than anything else and has been misinterpreted by those who choose not to make those informed decisions.
I was raised in a Presbyterian Church and married a Roman Catholic man. At that time, I believed that Roman Catholicism was just another Christian denomination, with just more symbolism. I was not aware of all the Roman Catholic doctrine and neither was my husband. After we married, I began listening to GTY. Gradually, I felt like I was not being fed at the Catholic Church, but continued to go with my husband and counted on Grace to you for my "food". This went on for several years. Eventually, I shared with my husband that I felt like I needed more biblical teaching at church, so he continued to go to the Catholic church and I started attending a strong bible-teaching church. We moved out of state. My husband's co-worker was an elder at a PCA church and invited us to his church. We began alternating each week between the PCA church and the Catholic church so we could go together. Later, when GTY was aired on DirecTV, we would get up early before church and watch GTY on television. My husband began to see how much he was missing. All this time, I kept praying for my husband and patiently waiting on God to see what He would do. Over a few more years, my husband began reading his Bible more and more, and eventually he decided that he no longer wanted to attend the Catholic church. He has grown into a very strong, biblically-sound Christian and loves the Word of God.
I think it is important to pray for our brothers and sisters that may be in ANY system or church that is contrary to the gospel. We have to be patient with our loved ones and friends knowing God is sovereign. It is necessary to confront false teachers, and God has placed us in situations with friends and family we need to reach and we have to be careful to not alienate them while we are trying to reach them. It is natural to want instant results and even manipulate those we care about. We need to point out the truth in love and leave the results to God.
My point is, be patient, pray, and be continually loving without brow-beating your family and loved ones while you point out error and speak the truth. Leave the results to God in HIS time, not yours. God is faithful and may be using you to lead others to the truth. Everything God chooses is at the proper time. Many times, what God does, are things we could not have planned ourselves. I would rather leave the results in His hands because His timing is perfect and is what is needed at that time. I think of Isaiah 64:3-4 where God does unexpected things for those who wait upon Him.
Why don't we just see what Scripture says right?
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (Speaking of even one false prophecy)
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled [c]rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you."
Quoting from Strange Fire, the book:
"Any self-proclaimed prophet who leads people into false doctrine and heresy is a false prophet... the New Testament is relentless in echoing that same warning. Anyone who claims to speak for God while simultaneously leading people away from the truth of God's Word is clearly shown to be a false prophet and a deciever." (p. 106-107).
Discernment is heightened when we take all that we see, do, feel and hear and test it to what the Word of God says. If anyone wants to discern truth from error, test it to Scripture (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
Further, how are these people not afraid of the warning of Revelation 22:18-19 made by our Lord?
The only answer that I can think of is that these people are not true believers and they know they're frauds. I say that because any true believer, trembles at God's Word, handles the Word of God carefully and realizes the sufficiency of Scripture.
Sola Scriptura! We don't need anything more than that.
Just one other suggestion that will be tremendously helpful:
If you haven't already, read the book and listen to the sermons given at the conference. It will help you make a more informed opinion.
I understand the frustration with the over-use of the "broad-brush" comments even after you've dealt with specifics and had that come back also as a criticism. I have a confession: I too have used the phrase to describe the conference, so this post has helped me to re-think through my reasons for using that phrase other than it possibly just being an effortless and convenient cliche to use carelessly because I haven't done any substantive homework. But, having watched the entire conference live, with some other reading, I don't think that's the case. While I can agree with you that there was a lot more substance than mere cherry-picked soundbites, there still were individuals and particulars that were either avoided or distorted, seemingly intentionally.
Is this not a good way of understanding what "broad-brushing" is?...To paint in such a way as to leave out details or mis-characterize the "individuals" and "particulars" that, if given more, adequate, or complete attention, might significantly lessen the immediate splash and wave of impact you're actually trying to accomplish?
You've admitted above that you misrepresented Dr. Sam Storms. And we appreciate that sincere apology and public clarification. But could not that ironic mishandling of the particulars with that individual in this post indicate something that is probably not limited to just this post?
Indeed it does.
Broad-brushing is just a nicer way of saying "Half-Truthing".
And to be fair, you can't avoid broad-brushing and not presenting the whole truth on everything, because in this case, it's what you don't know that's causing you to paint articulate colors blindly and broadly.
And come on Phil, is it not "broad-brushed" to make one huge stroke over to the charismatic crooks and cranny's and then a huge stroke back in an effort to proselytize everyone over to cessationism?
I know. You said we say you "always" paint with a broad brush. Well of course if you quote us like that, then we have to agree you don't "always". But here where the Truth Matters, or in the case of the "strange fire" conference--the Half Truth matters, you have crafted your own broad brush, that I will agree with you, in terms of truth, is not near broad enough.. or detailed enough.
You can't avoid the fact that you've done this no matter how many times you attempt to discredit others personally by propagating some sort of charismatic blood-line, while avoiding their scriptural arguments and their tested experience.
A glaring example:
See my next post.
Jack Deere's name came up only twice (that I can recall)--Once when John Macarthur intentionally misinterpreted/misquoted Jack as saying/believing that the "doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture is demonic" (while the audience gasped); Second, when you told your story about you, Lance Quinn, and John meeting with Jack and Paul Cain in John's office.
First, anyone who has read Jack's books would never come away with the conclusion that he believes that the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture is demonic. And, has Jack not asked you guys to stop misquoting him on that very thing? Yet you still have continued to use that as a way to discredit him while ignoring the impact his biblical arguments have made on many ex-cessationists.
I think you know Phil, that any honest interaction with the arguments in Jack's books require a lot more work than what your readers will ever attempt, especially if you make him look like a villain first.
Second, your story about meeting with Jack and Paul Cain in John's office is quite a deceptive decoy...one that you've used for a couple decades now to ignore the actual content of Jack's books. How long has it been since you've spoken with Jack? I know for a fact that you and John both have publicly, grossly, and unfairly mis-represented Jack. I think it also, along with what you've written publicly to Dr. Sam Storms, deserves a public apology.
I'll ask it again:
Is this not a good way of understanding what "broad-brushing" is?...To paint in such a way as to leave out details or mis-characterize the "individuals" and "particulars" that, if given more, adequate, or complete attention, might significantly lessen the immediate splash and wave of impact you're actually trying to accomplish?
I like that definition. And yes, I understand it cuts both ways. That's why mature conversations are the most helpful, not militant crusades.
We may all be guilty of use "broad-brush" tactics, but one thing is for sure, our use of that phrase still stands and still applies to what you've done with this conference, what you're doing now, and how you're doing it.
So paint away...
Bryan Burke: "You've admitted above that you misrepresented Dr. Sam Storms."
That's an interesting way of putting it. See, I would have said that I bent over backward not to misrepresent Dr. Storms. I actually said (above) that I have no desire to misrepresent him.
I give you full points for brazenness in doing the very thing you claim I'm guilty of. But I do think in doing so you have undermined the potency of your argument.
Bryan: "First, anyone who has read Jack's books would never come away with the conclusion that he believes that the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture is demonic. And, has Jack not asked you guys to stop misquoting him on that very thing?"
To my knowledge Dr. Deere has not made that request, nor was I even the one who cited him on that. But I did find where he addressed the issue with Philip Jensen: Vineyard Position Paper 2. (see p. 23).
In essence, Dr. Deere seems to suggest that he is operating with a unique definition of "the sufficiency of Scripture," and that is supposed to absolve him from the charge that he said the historic doctrine of biblical sufficiency is "demonic."
He writes, "This quote is typical of the rest of The Briefing and of our discussion with Phillip Jensen when the subject of the sufficiency of the Scriptures came up. Not one time in The Briefing do any of the authors define 'the sufficiency of Scripture.' This whole discussion in The Briefing makes no reference to what the Scriptures say about their own sufficiency."
The classic theological definition of biblical sufficiency is the one given in Westminster Confession of Faith (I.6):
The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.
Jack Deere has a different definition, one that accommodates "new revelations of the Spirit." Indeed, the denial of fresh revelations from the Spirit is precisely what Deere labeled "demonic." If he has a different explanation of what he meant, I have never heard it. Bottom line: I think the charge is fair. It is, after all, what he said.
Bryan: "Second, your story about meeting with Jack and Paul Cain in John's office is quite a deceptive decoy...one that you've used for a couple decades now to ignore the actual content of Jack's books. How long has it been since you've spoken with Jack?"
Bryan: "Is this not a good way of understanding what "broad-brushing" is?...To paint in such a way as to leave out details or mis-characterize the 'individuals' and 'particulars' that, if given more, adequate, or complete attention, might significantly lessen the immediate splash and wave of impact you're actually trying to accomplish?"
What you really seem to be suggesting is that if I don't acknowledge and affirm whatever spin Dr. Deere would prefer to put on our interaction, I'm guilty of unfairly broad-brushing. Is that it?
Believe that if you like. I say Dr. Deere still has not sufficiently explained his "that's demonic, even though Christian theologians have perfected it" remark. Worse, he was the loudest evangelical voice championing Paul Cain all those years, and he is culpable for the massive confusion and multiple false prophecies he aggressively gave credibility to. Instead of scolding cessationists who haven't managed to look past his dismissive accusation about biblical sufficiency and doctrines of demons, you ought to be challenging him to take his share of responsibility for the Paul Cain fiasco and own the rotten fruit that came from that.
It seems clear that 'continuists' are succuming to that old original sin of wanting to 'be God'. I watch this happen all the time with people in general. A restless discontent with simply being a created being saved by God's sovereign grace. Very similar to an addicts craving for 'more', never satisfied with 'enough'. When genuine gratitude for God having anything to do with you is experienced, the cup does indeed runneth over, and genuine satisfation of the soul is experienced. There isn't a circumstance confronting any human situation not addressed clearly in scripture. But, of course that isnt going to get you 'high' on special insight, power or knowlege. Simply put, outside God's provisions in His word lay egoism, emotionalism, low self-esteem, addictive personality types.....saved or not.
Thank you for adressing the chanting 'whip you into a frenzy', very intoxicating, new 'worship' music that feeds into all of the above, coming out of the groups Jesus Culture, Hillsong, etc.
Thoroughly enjoyed the Strange Fire Conference. Been a follower of GTY for nearly 26 years. Have already read the book Strange Fire which treats these critical matters with thoughtful scholarship and biblical exposition. Unfortunately we are in the itching-ears-era that Paul expressed to Timothy. Sound doctrine is being subverted by subjective experiences and gross false teaching. I echo John's heart and those that loves God's truth to earnestly contend for it which always makes one unpopular. You're always labeled as intolerant and unloving when confronting their error.
John as a cessationist has defended his position biblically and now it is incumbent upon the Charismatics to defend theirs.
If there is a Truth Matters conference in the future, I would love for the theme to be the "Doctrines of Grace".
I would love to see a former Charismatic speak at one of these conferences. I believe all the issues have been put on the table, but it would really give a different perspective I think, I could be wrong.
Scott, I used to have charismatic beliefs.
Whilst I was pleased with the Strange Fire conference and I am in general agreement with its message, there were some things that concerned me.
I cannot accept that the majority of charismatics are not christians. My experience is that they are definitely born-again and would agree with cessationists on most things. They generally have a deep and sincere faith. I need to emphasise that things we have in common are far greater and far more important than the things that divide us.
I don't think most charismatics major on extra-biblical revelation and they would generally regard it as always being subject to the test of scripture.
And I don't believe that 90% of charismatics have word-faith or prosperity gospel beliefs.
[Note: I do not have experience of Africa etc and things may be different over there. The situation in Nigeria is quite different to America, for example].
People are attracted to the charismatic movement because of the sorry state of conservative evangelicalism. The joy of the Lord and the life of the spirit are sadly lacking in the cessationist world, both individually and corporately. This is also a broad brush, but sadly it is true. And charismatics are often egalitarians and do not place limits on women's ministry, which again is attractive. (Having studied both sides of the debate, I personally believe that egalitarianism is the correct understanding of the Bible's teaching - but that's another matter).
The way the charismatic movement grows is by people having some sort of "baptism in the holy spirit" experience and speaking in tongues. This convinces them that the claims of the movement are correct and causes them to reject the cessationist viewpoint. They become locked in by virtue of their experience. After all, if I can speak in tongues, that must prove that the sign gifts haven't ceased. And even if there are problems in the movement, the basic principle must be correct, because my experience confirms it.
It takes a lot to break free of this mentality!
Also, theology never happens in a vacuum. If there is a large movement in the church that is continuationist, then theologians (Piper, for example) will consider if the Bible supports their beliefs.
I don't know if this is the sort of perspective you were looking for - I hope it's helpful. If you'd like, I'll write something more about the whole subject of experiences, which is key to understanding the movement.
David (#55),
May I ask how many charismatics you know? Because if experience is the ultimate measure of truth, I highly doubt you've got the anecdotal evidence to make any valid claims about what "most charismatics" believe.
We all must dispossess ourselves of the notion that our experience is at all a valid measure for truth. What I can see and touch and hear is not comprehensive in the least--in fact it's remarkably limited.
Charismatic defenders love to say that their friends aren't anything like what we see on TBN--that faith healers and prosperity preachers are just the fringe of the movement. And yet tens of millions of people worldwide tune into TBN every day. That kind of audience isn't the fringe of anything.
For all the charismatic defenders out there: Please stop using the broad brush of "my experience" to whitewash the entire movement.
I considered myself a charismatic for almost 30 years. In that time I visited numerous churches, read a lot of books and magazines, and went to many conferences. I've had encountered pentecostals, denominational charismatics, and the "new" churches (eg Vineyard). I would guess that the number of people I met during that time is in the thousands. So I think I am pretty well-versed on the charismatic movement. That's the basis for my views.
I agree, experience is not the test of truth. So when it comes to charismatic demographics, there needs to be some statistics to back up the claims. Things like "90% of charismatics follow the prosperity gospel" do not ring true to many, including me. I haven't seen any research to confirm them. It's just as anecdotal as my own experience.
Likewise with TBN, how do we know their viewing figures are true? I would treat them with great suspicion. And some people may just watch a particular program, not be a wholesale consumer of everything the channel broadcasts.
I am not a charismatic defender, in case that wasn't obvious. I regard charismatic beliefs (ie the continuation of the miraculous or sign gifts) as false teachings, I no longer hold to them, and I share my reasons for rejecting them whenever it is appropriate.
I do believe that the Biblical case for cessationism is strong. But, as I was trying to say earlier, charismatics will rarely be convinced by a presentation of cessationist theology. They will say "well, I speak in tongues, as do many of my friends, so cessationism can't be right". How do we respond to this? The answer lies in understanding speaking in tongues...
You wrote: I agree, experience is not the test of truth. So when it comes to charismatic demographics, there needs to be some statistics to back up the claims.
How about the statistic you causally dismissed in your very next sentence? Or do you think John MacArthur and the other speakers at Strange Fire simply made up the stats they referred to during the conference? I hope you'll take the time to read Strange Fire and study the compelling evidence it presents.
I'm glad you no longer consider yourself a charismatic, and that you don't intend to defend their position or their practice. But this theological scourge has thrived primarily because too many people have underestimated just how corrupt it truly is. Let's not make that same mistake.
I don't have a copy of Strange Fire, although I am planning to get one in due course.
But I know that others queried the 90% figure when it was first made, and I haven't seen any explanation offered online so far. So why not tell us, here and now, how it was arrived at.
Frankly, it doesn't need to be explained again online. The speakers at Strange Fire cited their sources, and I'd encourage anyone who has a gripe with what they heard--or what they've heard about what was said at Strange Fire--to go back and listen to those messages. Sound bites and pull quotes aren't the best way to advance the debate or edify each other.
As for the 90% statistic you've taken issue with, it's not a new number devised for Strange Fire. It previously appeared in John T. Allen's book The Future Church, and was originally derived from research data from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. Those and other sources are thoroughly cited in the book.
I hope that helps.
Again right on target. I came out of all of this mess years ago before these "new " guys got into it all. Fraud, deceit and just plain false doctrine is the order of the day in most all I ever experienced and was involved with. The Church at large throughout history has dealt with all of these heresies and renounced them soundly as such. Church history doesn't seem to matter any more with these type of movements, for they wish their experiences to be the criteria of Biblical inerrancy! God's word is of no real importance unless you can take a few words out of context and make a pretext.
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text:
CAT Chat Minutes
April 30, 1999
Information/Follow-up items
We need to check the oxygen content in our water system. Does anyone have an oxygen monitor that can be borrowed for these tests?
Contact your floor coordinator. XFD has a few units, which can be loaned out on a temporary basis. For the long run, we are investigating several methods of supplying a nitrogen cover gas for the water system, which should significantly minimize the oxygen content in the water. Mohan will provide an updated list of the costs by the end of the month.
User Operations
Storage Ring Availability: The storage ring availability over the whole run so far has been very good. This past week, the availability was about 95%. During the past week, one rf trip occurred but the problem was rectified quickly, leading to very little downtime.
User operations will end on Sunday, May 2, at midnight. Scheduled maintenance is scheduled through May 24. User operations will resume on Wednesday, June 2 at 0800 hours.
The chilled water system will be shutdown on Monday, May 3, at 8:00 am. The shutdown will last approximately three days.
General Information
A quick reminder that Argonne's Open House will take place tomorrow, Saturday, May 1st.


text:
Here's how RW members rated this race in the past (16 votes).
In short: Well Organised, beware THE HILL!Date of review: August 8, 2012
In full: Only critism is there weren't enough water stops, especially for such a hot day as it wasDate of review: August 7, 2012
In short: Well organised HalfIn full: As above, a well organised half by the Dartford Harriers. Course is more than undulating in my opinion and was made wuite tough at times by the hot weather.Marshalls were friendly and encouraging but like other have said, could do with another water stop in the second half. Lovely medal at end and enjoyed the finish on the athletics track. Would I do it again? Yes due to the great and smooth organisationDate of review: July 24, 2012
In short: Nice scenery in the middleIn full: I ran this because it had recieved rave reviews on RW previously. I'd say that it is a better than average road half marathon, but I wouldn't rave about it. Organisation was good, with lots of marshalls on road crossings - although there could have been more in the final busy town park, where I had to take evading action to avoid running over a toddler who had sprinted out of a junction into the path. Marshalls were very entusiastic. Water points were a liitle oddly spaced - every 2 miles in the fist 6-7 miles, then only one in the second half, where runners are likely to need water (especially on a day as hot as this one). Scenerry was mixed - a couple of miles of housing estate at the start and finish, but lovely kentish country lanes in the middle. Course not particularly flat, but not particularly hilly either: the "big" hill at ten miles is longish, but not steep.Atmosphere was mixed - as often seems to be case on road races: lots of friendly chat or at least smiles, but a noticeable minority who insist on wearing headphones (against race instructions), oblivious to those around them, or barge through elbows flying when overtaking. If you're in the middle of the field, does it really take much effort to smile and thank the marshalls? - they've given up their Sunday morning for your benfit, after all.Date of review: July 24, 2012
In short: I loved every second of this race - even the killer hillIn full: This race wasn't as hilly as I was expecting. I'm not a fan of hills and avoid running them when I can, but only the last hill around mile 10 was pure evil. The others were just an annoyance! And of course, what goes up must come down and the downs weren't too steep which meant you could gain some speed on the way down. It was a very pretty race through the countryside with a lap around the race track at the end. A nice medal, banana and orange squash at the end. I didn't get a PB but I did finish 10 minutes faster than I thought I would. A great race which I will be doing again next year :-)Date of review: July 24, 2012
In short: Hilly, tough, challenging course, not enough water stations at the last half.In full: easy to get there, nice car park with good marshals, 10 min walk to race HQ, nice start then dull Dartford streets, after M25 its a country side with few steep hills, lots of friendly people around...around mile 10 there is a long steep hill, not enough water stations on second half of the race again dull dartford streets, finish is good though, bit of wait in cramped area for kids to take chips off your shoes then nice medal, orange squash and banana, water, sponges..i enjoyed the challenge it is more like a half trail marathon! Date of review: July 24, 2012
In short: Really wll organised and a nice local feel to the whole day!!Enjoyed the pedestrian bridge crossing and Gore hill towards the end!Date of review: July 23, 2012
In short: Scenic, friendly, well-organised with a killer hillIn full: I was enjoying the atmosphere as soon as I arrived. The organisers were friendly and chatty, the guy on the microphone put everyone in good spirits. This spirit was also reflected in the marshalls around the course - clapping and cheering. It really made all the difference.The scenery was beautiful. With the heat the first two hills (although not as hard as I'd feared) were tiring. I put that down to the sun rather than the course. That last (10 mile) hill hurt. I gave up trying to run when I saw people walking faster than those running. I really could've done with a drink just before that hill but not sure the route/traffic would allow for that.Wonderful entry into the final 400m on the race track - never had a name shout out before :) I prefer a medal, orange squah and banana to a goodie bag any day.I'm glad I this wasn't my first half marathon. But as my first non-flat race I loved it. I'm sure I'll be back.Date of review: July 23, 2012
In full: This was my 4th race this year and I say that the whole organization was excellent, the staff were very friendly and helpful. The scenary was very picturesque...I have thoroughly enjoyed it and will do it again next year.Date of review: July 23, 2012
In short: Excellent rural course, with super organisation. ExemplaryIn full: While did seem to be a lot of water stations in the first half, I was amazed at the sheer number of people (especially club runners) walking up the Gore Road hill. These are runners on better than 8 minute/mile pace, they should have looked at the parcours, done a suitable amount of hill training and paced their run in the knowledge that there would be an effort at 9.5miles. As for the other two "hills", there was one reasonable incline and another sharp ramp. North Kent is not short of ups and downs... Practice. The organisation by Dartford Harriers was brilliant and the atmosphere was great above in the park and track area, helped by the weather. A medal and a banana was plenty, nobody wants lots of leaflets about massage and gels.Date of review: July 23, 2012
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Cassandra Stone has created one of the hottest collections in affordable formal dresses and pageant dresses. She takes enormous pride in the design and manufacturing of a stunning fashion line of gorgeous and inexpensive formal dresses. We are certain you will find something incredible for your next prom or pageant in this amazing collection of Cassandra Stone dresses!
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text: International Checking in with ArchLevel Lacrosse: Sights of the European Lacrosse Championships Sammie Lazar / June 28, 2012 England is having quite the year! The Queen's Diamond Jubilee, the Olympics (where I'll be...) and now their lacrosse teams are participating in the European Lacrosse Championship! Our favorite blokes from England Continue Reading Share


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It is now one month before my annual summer airborne trek and, yes, preparation has already begun. In fact, my task list for these long summer outings starts a few months ahead, if you want to include the time I spend reserving hotel or condo space and cars in the most popular places (I use AOPA's web discounts to help make it all affordable). That's just good planning.
I double check all the paperwork for the year is good with my airplane. It generally goes through its condition check—the equivalent of an annual inspection—in April, and by late May any sore points have have been completely worked out by my A&P. In June it is time to ensure that all of my GPS and MFD databases will stay up to date throughout my journey.
It's also when I start a push on my own pilot currency, to make sure that I'm ready for any of the weather my long cross country is liable to toss at me. I never want to feel as if my skills aren't up to the conditions. I hit the PC sim in my office to practice my procedures. Then I rustle up my flight instructor and torture him with a couple sessions of practice approaches, navigation, holding patterns and emergencies.
The emergencies are something I always have in the back of my mind. By the end of June, once I know
my general routing for the summer trip, I start gathering fresh supplies for my emergency back pack, which sits just behind the pilot's seat (not in the baggage compartment where I can't reach it without getting out of my seat). The back pack holds packaged water, a mylar blanket and first aid supplies for dealing with cuts, scrapes and "bleeders." It also has a strobe light, signal mirror, emergency cryovac food and a multipurpose tool. We've got a tiny two-person tent that barely weighs five pounds packed, and if we're going over a lot of wide-open space that's worth tucking in next to my husband's emergency tool kit, too.
That tool kit has come in handy more times than not. These adventures put more hours on our airplane than it often flies in the three months after we return. And hours mean wear and tear. We have, on occasion, even been seen to carry a spare part or two in our cargo area. Overcautious? Depends on where you are going. Do you know how much it costs to replace an alternator on Grand Cayman, or Roatan?
Once I've got my emergency back pack, tool kit and any spare parts together I can begin thinking about
the routing. I know how far my airplane can safely go in one leg, and I know how long I can safely go, say, before I have to "go." In early July I begin checking flight planning software and comparing possible fuel stops. Because I don't know what the weather will be on my day of departure, and because fuel prices fluctuate, I always have two or three potential airports planned for each fuel stop. I'll narrow it down the night before I leave, and even still, I might not make a final choice until I'm airborne and I see what the real flight conditions are like.
It sounds like a lot of work, getting ready for an epic trip. It can be, if you look at it as work. I see all the prep as part of the build-up, the anticipation that is half the fun of going. With that attitude, starting flight preparations early is all part of the fun.


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Targeting success: Staves, Trudeau head to archery nationals
Fluffy golden brown pancakes cooked on the iron grill, a crackling fire in the old stone fireplace and a warm glow on old fish, taxidermy pheasants and old maps set the scene Sunday. The place was the Tupper Lake Rod and Gun Club where the Tupper Lake Youth Archery Club held its fundraiser. All the while the wind howled outside and the sky alternately spit sleet and snow on an otherwise slushy spring day. It was warm inside and the food was good; sausages, strawberries, blueberries and whipped cream on griddle cakes with genuine New York maple syrup was enough to give any pancake house a run for the money. This was all made possible by the Tupper Lake Archers and the Tupper Lake Youth Archery Club members who put down their bows and arrows to wait on tables, collect donations at the door and serve fresh-brewed coffee and hot chocolate as their guests arrived.
The reason for the early spring breakfast money-raiser and the outpouring of support from the community was to help fund a trip to Kentucky where two Tupper Lake youth archers will join 10,800 other young archers for the National Archery in Schools (NASP) national tournament. The tournament will be held May 8-10, Kentucky for young archers in grades four through twelve.
Brionna Staves, age 15, will shoot for her third year at the nationals, and Andrew Trudeau, 14 will attend the NSAP national championships in Louisville for his first time. Both of the young archers are from Tupper Lake.
Brionna and Andrew qualified for the NASP nationals earlier when they competed in the New York State championship tournament. Of the 16 youth archers from the Tupper Lake School District, 11 archers participated in the state championships held March 7 at each school involved. That tourney featured 607 participants who shot targets in their respective schools. The scoring results were tabulated via email in a virtual scoring tournament, however the arrows they shot at targets in each respective school were very much real. The tournament was held at the high school. Brionna qualified for the nationals with 261 points out of 300 possible points on the target. That was the same as her qualification shoot last year, although, she said this year's total was an "off day" and she had been shooting 280s in practice. Last year's 261 qualified her for the nationals for a second time in 2013. Her first nationals qualification came when she was just 13.
Andrew shot a 255 this year in the state championship which he said was a little better than last year's 223.
"Concentration is key," both archers said this week. "And a lot of practice rounds," Brionna said.
One thing is certain, both of them devote a lot of time to archery. So does their coach, mentor and program director Pam Savard of Tupper Lake whose son Griffin is also in the youth archery club at Tupper Lake.
The teenagers know that basic stance and technique are key, however the number one priority before they ever take up the bow, nock an arrow or look through the sight at the target- is safety, "first and foremost," said Coach Savard. She is a retired health and physical education teacher from the Tupper Lake Central School District .
"The first priority at any meet or practice is to make sure everyone is on the same page when it comes to safety," she said, "especially for the little kids."
That's why the meets are strictly regimented in safety. Generally there are commands spoken by officials at meets that include "get bows, shoot, get arrows," common instructions to which everyone on the shooting line must adhere strictly.
In a meet as big as the upcoming NASP Nationals in Kentucky, where there will be upwards of 400 archers on the line at a time, voice commands are drowned out by the hubbub and whistle signals are used. Thus the Tupper Lake youth archers have been practicing with whistle blown commands for the last few weeks.
Both archers have received a lot of help from their grandfathers. Andrew Trudeau is only in his second year with the Tupper Lake High School youth archery program, but he has been shooting archery with his grandfather, John Hoyt, an avid archer and an active member of the Tupper Lake Archers under the auspices of the Tupper Lake Rod and Gun Club.
Brionna Staves has been with the school program for the past three years, however her shooting prowess on the archery range is also attributable to her early introduction to the sport by her grandfather, Fred LaMere, also a dyed in the wool member of the Rod and Gun Club and Tupper Lake Archers. She said she began shooting with her grandfather when she was just seven or eight years old and has always loved the sport.
The young shooters use competition Genesis compound bows, the same as they use in the gym at the high school. Brionna has owned her own bow for the past two years, she said. While Andrew said he uses the bows from school, they both said they practice a lot in the off season.
Is there any secret to her cool poise as she pulls back the string and prepares to let the arrow fly? "It helps to put off all else, but it's still frustrating when you keep missing," Brionna admitted. "I try not to really think about it when I'm shooting. It becomes almost instinctual to a point, but if you over think it, things go wrong." Andrew agrees.
Last year when the archers made the trip to Louisville, a 14 hour car trip, the ride was very taxing. This year they have opted to fly out of Burlington, which will cut the trip down to three or four hours, which will both reduce fatigue and give them a little more time for sightseeing around the Louisville area, where they hope to visit Churchill Downs where the Kentucky Derby is held and to see the Louisville Slugger Museum. They'll also get to do some fun archery stuff like an archery skeet shoot, bow fishing and moving targets and archery golf. They will be taken care of in good style at the Crown Plaza right across from the big Louisville Convention Center where the national meet will be held.
"Archery is a lifelong skill," Brionna allows. She said she has also hunted with a bow without hitting anything so far. "I would like to pursue archery for the rest of my life," she said. She's on the right track for that goal. She has been a participant in the Tupper Lake Archers Mountain Challenge, a two day event with four courses through hilly wooded terrain where archers shoot at plastic 3-D targets shaped like animals. The Tupper Lake Archers Mountain Challenge is the biggest archery event in the northern Adirondacks and one of the biggest 3-D shoots in the state. She has also competed in numerous other archery shoots around the area and in the Adirondacks including the Peru 3-D shoot, the Chesterfield shoot, and archery contests in Dannemora and Colton.
For Andrew, the trip to Louisville will be the first time in his life traveling to Kentucky, and he said he can't wait.
Youth archery in Tupper Lake is sponsored in part by a 21st Century Grant through Cornell University. There are a total of 40 budding archers in Tupper Lake in the grade two through sixth grade group learning safety and archery skills. They are bussed up to the Rod and Gun Club's archery range for seven Thursdays through the winter. That's beyond the 16 high school archers who practice in the gym all winter.
Mrs. Savard wrote a separate grant to recover the cost of replacement arrows and targets. Splitting an arrow down the middle with another arrow is a big deal the first time it happens but after two or three times it becomes a costly waste of arrows that need to be replaced or repaired.
The Tupper Lake Archers are also a major sponsor of the youth archery program at the high school and recently purchased 12 Genesis regular size bows, three minis, and three children's bows. Tupper Lake Archers members Kathy Tessier and John Hoyt volunteer to assist the program and other Tupper Lake Archer members like Scott LaLonde, Ray McIntosh and Mike Dominie are frequent assistant volunteers for the program. George Harriman ran the elementary youth archery program for years.
Despite the hours both Brionna and Andrew spend on the archery practice range they are both well rounded students. Andrew was in the recent Tupper Lake High School musical, he plays in the band and sings in the chorus. Brionna is also in the band and chorus, she's on the varsity softball team and the varsity volleyball team, and was also in the school musical and is a member of SADD (Students Against Destructive Decision). Both are honor students. Both join an elite company of high school students who are proficient archers. They can't win any money, or any professional compensation, just recognition, but for now, that's good enough for them. "Besides that it's fun!" Brionna said.
All of the phys ed teachers at both Tupper Lake High School and the elementary school are Basic Archery Instructor (BAI) certified in the eleven steps to archery success and that keeps the sport focused as a good consistent routine which keeps it safe.
The youth archers are scored on a ring target with a bulls-eye worth 10 points and ten concentric rings worth scores in descending order from 10 through 1 for the outside ring.


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Last year, Mo and I traveled down alongside the Mississippi river, attempting to cover [Eight States in Eight Days], but ended up covering [Seven States in Nine Days]. This time, we decided to go overseas, to knock off a few items from her [bucket list].
2. Visit Ronda
Saturday - We rented a car and drove to the mountain village of [Ronda, Spain], which is in the heart of the region of Spain called Andalucia. Why Ronda? This was where Mo's uncle was stationed during the war. The town is built on two mountains, connected by a set of bridges. The tallest is "Puente Nuevo", built in the 1700s, which is nearly 400 feet tall. Ronda is also home of Spain's oldest Bull Fighting ring. Bars and restaurants built along the cliff offer some spectacular views. Mo and I shared a "Paella Mixta" for lunch, consisting of yellow rice with bits of chicken and seafood.
3. Soak in European Mineral Waters
Sunday - Most things in Europe are closed on Sunday, so we decided to have a "Spa Day" at the [Gran Hotel Benahavis], in Benahavis, Spain. This lovely hotel is built over a natural mineral waters hot spring, and an underground spa allowed us to relax in the warmth. The spa also had a dry sauna, steam sauna, and ice cold water bath to complete the experience.
4. Climb to the Top of the Rock of Gibraltar
Monday - Technically, Gibraltar is a separate country, but they use British money (Pound Sterling). To get to the top of the rock, we drove across their airport runway, saw the mosque at Point Europa, parked in large parking lot and took the cable car to the top. From there, we climbed a few more steps to see the grand views of Spain and North Africa, while keeping our distance from the infamous monkeys. These [Barbary Macaque] are cute, but can bite or scratch you if you get too close. Afterwards, we had lunch in a pub called the Angry Friar.
7. Visit the World of Coca-Cola
Thursday - we drove to Malaga, Spain, and flew back to the United States. Malaga is famous for celebrities like Ernest Hemingway and Pablo Picaso. We could not get all the way back to Tucson, so we stayed overnight in Atlanta.
Friday - This gave us an opportunity to visit the [World of Coca-Cola], where Mo's cousin had done some recent marketing work in celebration of their 125 year anniversary. This is a museum with a live bottling operation on display, a 4D movie, viewing areas to see commercials from around the world, and free tasting, sampling some of the 105 different soft drink flavors manufactured. I recommend the Tawney Ginger from Tanzania, and the Simba Guarana from Brazil. I did not care for the Apple-and-Carrot soda from Japan.
8. See a Manta Ray Up Close
Our discount combo tickets included a visit to the [Georgia Aquarium] next door. Mo can't scuba-dive, but she got stung by a ray when she was a kid, and wanted to show me a big Manta Ray up close. The aquarium was quite good, divided up into separate exhibits, including interactive touch-the-fish areas for the kids, Beluga whales, Jellyfish, Seahorses, and a moving sidewalk that takes you underneath the sea life.
I would like to thank Delta Air Lines for letting Mo and I take this trip using frequent flyer miles, Hertz Rental Cars for offering a sweet deal on a tiny Hyundai i20 car, the Gran Hotel Benahavis for their hospitality, and the incredibly warm and helpful people of Atlanta. I am glad that my language skills in French, Spanish and Arabic came in quite handy!


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LINGUIST List 24.3336
Thu Aug 22 2013
Calls: Arabic, General Linguistics/USA
Editor for this issue: Bryn Hauk <bryn
Youssef Haddad <yah
28th Annual Symposium on Arabic Linguistics
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Full Title: 28th Annual Symposium on Arabic Linguistics
Short Title: ALS28
Date: 13-Mar-2014 - 15-Mar-2014
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Contact Person: ALS28 Organizers
Meeting Email:
< click here to access email >
Web Site:
Linguistic Field(s): General Linguistics
Subject Language(s): Arabic, Standard
Call Deadline: 01-Nov-2013
Meeting Description:
The Arabic Linguistics Society together with the University of Florida's Department of Languages, Literatures, and Cultures, Department of Linguistics, and Smathers Libraries are pleased to announce the 28th Annual Symposium on Arabic Linguistics to be held at The University of Florida in Gainesville, Florida, March 13-15, 2014.
Keynote Speakers:
Naima Boussofara - The University of Kansas
Lina Choueiri - American University of Beirut
Niloofar Haeri - Johns Hopkins University
Janet Watson - University of Salford, Manchester
Arabic Linguistics Society membership: $35 for students and $50 for non-students (required of all presenters who are not members of the Society)
To pay online, please go to
Registration Fees:
Through February 13, 2014: $35 for students and $60 for non-students
After February 13, 2014: $45 for students and $70 for non-students
To register on line, please go to
and go to Registration.
For further inquiries regarding the Arabic Linguistics Society, please contact the ALS Executive Director Mushira Eid at mushira.eid
utah.edu .
The event is co-sponsored by the Arabic Linguistics Society and University of Florida.
We thank the following UF constituencies for their generous support:
The Center for the Humanities and the Public Sphere
The Office of Research
The International Center
The College of Liberal Arts and Sciences
The Department of Languages, Literatures, and Cultures
The Linguistics Department
George A. Smathers Libraries
Second Call for Papers:
Papers are invited on topics that deal with theoretical and applied issues in Arabic Linguistics. Research in the following areas of Arabic linguistics is encouraged: linguistic analysis (phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics), sociolinguistics, psycholinguistics, discourse analysis, historical linguistics, corpus linguistics, and computational linguistics.
Persons interested in presenting papers are requested to prepare an abstract, following the guidelines at this link:
When your abstract is ready, please click
then follow the instructions to upload a .pdf file of your abstract. You will receive an email afterwards indicating that your abstract has been successfully submitted. Please note that, unlike in previous years, abstracts submitted by e-mail will not be accepted. You will be asked to provide this information with your submission. Should you face any problem submitting your abstract via the above link, please contact the ALS organizers als28.organizers
Deadline for receipt of abstracts: Midnight (EDT) November 1, 2013
Twenty minutes will be allowed for each presentation followed by 10 minutes for questions and discussion.
For further inquiries regarding the Arabic Linguistics Society, please contact the ALS Executive Director Mushira Eid at mushira.eid
Selected papers from the symposium may be considered for publication.
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