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Talking Advanced Stats with Elliotte Friedman
Thomas Drance
October 06 2011 01:32PM
You all know Elliotte Friedman – he's the Hockey Night in Canada Broadcaster who happens to write the best English language hockey column in the world. His 30 Thoughts go up every Monday (they're rarely delayed, but when they are, Twitter has a panic-attack). No one captures chatter from the rink quite like Friedman does every Monday. It's those insightful tidbits that make his 30 Thoughts columns indispensible to NHL fans. When 30 Thoughts returned from its summer hiatus this year, I noticed that Friedman was talking about zone-starts and hockey analytics in a way he previously hadn't done. I thought perhaps there had been a change in his thinking over the summer in regards to fancy-stats, so I decided to e-mail him and see if he'd talk "moneypuck" with me. Elliotte agreed, and while I had my Wayne Campbell meeting Alice Cooper moment, we set the date of the interview for this past Tuesday. On Tuesday, Elliotte's wife gave birth to the couples first son – but Elliotte e-mailed me the next day and was still interested in talking about hockey-stats. On behalf of the Nation Network, I'd like to extend my gratitude to Elliotte for his candor and class, and our congratulations to him and his wife on the birth of their son. What follows is the conversation we had:
Thom Drance: Elliotte, one of the main reasons I wanted to speak with you was the appearance of advanced metrics in your regular 30 thoughts column beginning last month, I'm curious, how would you describe your interest in these number?
Elliotte Friedman: I've always been interested in statistical analysis and what it can mean. I think that, in this day and age if you're not open-minded to something – it's a bad thing. You have to be open minded to all ideas and theories to see if they really make sense, and can help you judge players, teams or whatever. For me it was just a matter of having the time to figure out what they were trying to do, and if they made any sense.
My dad for example is a CFO of a company, but that numerical gene has kind of skipped a generation. So it takes me a little bit longer. This summer while we had a bit of down-time, I was able to look at some things and sort out, you know, this makes sense to me and this doesn't, and I think this works and that this doesn't. Some of things Gabe uses I thought made a lot of sense. So that's basically what has happened, I had a chance to sit down and figure out what I like, what makes sense to me and how I can use it in evaluations and reporting.
TD: I'm curious, was there an article or a piece of evidence that really grabbed you, or has the increase in attention you've given to this sort of analysis developed more gradually?
EF: I think it's a few things. Number one, anyone who read Moneyball probably thought, "what does this mean? Is it only baseball, or does this apply to other sports?" Whether you think the Moneyball ideas are smart or stupid – there's no doubting they exist. I think if you're an executive for a team, or even a reporter covering games, you're probably not doing your job if you don't at least investigate whether or not they're useful tools.
Number two, I read Kukla's Corner a lot, and he has a lot of people on there who use Corsi numbers, and Gabe Desjardins used to do a thing, and initially you would read it and your eyes would glaze over not understanding it. But eventually as you plow into it, you try to figure out "what does this mean, what are these guys talking about?" Number three; I like a challenge so I thought, "okay can I figure out some of this stuff."
The last thing is, Ron Wilson is a guy who is big into statistical analysis and some of the coaches I've dealt with have their own ways of using stats. Like Butch Carter when he was with the Raptors, one of the stats he used to evaluate big-men was something called "rebounds per minute." So if you have a coach who believes in a certain stat, it gives you a pretty good insight into what kind of player he likes. Whenever the Raptors were looking at a player or I thought there was a player they would look at – I could calculate his rebounds per minute, know what the number was, and determine "this is a Butch Carter type player, or this isn't a Butch Carter type player." I think in this day and age, you have to have an understanding of the teams you cover. I used to cover the Raptors a lot, and that was one thing that said to me, "if I know this coach likes this kind of stat, lets look at available players and see where they fit." And I found it gave me a greater understanding of which type of player he would think was valuable.
TD: What particular hockey metrics are you familiar with and how do you view their relevance and utility?
EF: One thing I believe in a lot is zone-starts. That was a big thing in Vancouver last year – the twins for example would go to Vigneault and say "we'd like to kill penalties" and Vigneault would laugh at them and say "no I want you concentrating totally on offence," and you'd look at the zone-starts and there they were: starting if the offensive-zone all the time. That's really interesting, I like to know which players teams are putting on the ice in certain situations. What it also helps you with, is if something different happens in a game. If you're used to a certain player being used in a certain spot at a certain time, and all of a sudden he's not there. It shows you something is up. So I find zone-starts to be very helpful and fascinating.
I'm still trying to get more of a grip on quality of competition. You have guys and you're told they're great defensive forwards - well are they? While coaches maybe don't believe in a shut-down line, they believe in putting "best on best", because they feel if their best guys have the puck, your best guys aren't going to be able to get it. I would say the zone-starts, and the quality of competition and team stuff is the most interesting to me.
TD: While particular individuals have been tracking things like this for decades, hockey as a whole has been generally slow to embrace analytics. It's only really been in the last couple of years that these "moneypuck" principles have gained momentum. Why do you think hockey has been slower to embrace this stuff than the other major North American leagues?
EF: You know what, I'm not 100% certain that's true. I'll tell you why, James Mirtle did a piece a couple weeks ago in the Globe, and they talked about how only some team's used them. I think that's false - and not because of James - but because some teams won't tell you.
The Vancouver Canucks do a lot of different things – last year I did a piece on the sleep bracelets – and we have barely scratched the surface of what we know about what they do. Fear the Fin did a really interesting interview with Doug Wilson a couple of weeks ago, and he tried to ask about statistical analysis and Wilson shot him down almost at every turn. I think most teams are probably using something, and maybe, though I can't with any certainty, have been using some statistical analysis for longer than we've been aware of. But because some of these teams like to keep these things a secret, we just don't know the full extent of what they use.
Like Ron Wilson, he apparently has a series of stats he uses that he believes are a great window into a player's abilities and level, but the one time I asked him if I could find them out, he wouldn't give them to me.
TD: The role of a hard-cap, do you think it has worked as a sort of: "necessity is the mother of invention" factor?
EF: There are a couple of things… Number one, with the salary cap and especially for teams with smaller budgets - every GM is going to make mistakes, it is inevitable. What you have to do is make sure those mistakes hurt you less often, and happen less often, than they might. That's the key thing – managing mistakes. The easiest way to avoid making mistakes? Ask: "do we know everything we could possibly know about what we're looking at?" And the more ways you can come up with of quantifying it – the better you are. I really believe that.
It's like, what's the most important thing? Preparation. If you don't have good preparation you can't succeed. And you can't fault people for coming up with newer and different ways to prepare. You just can't afford to make a lot of mistakes whether there's a cap-system or not - you have a budget and you can't afford to blow it. You will - but you have to mitigate it, because in some cases it's impossible to avoid making mistakes, but what you're looking for is more analysis to help you avoid it.
And the other thing, I think is general competitiveness. How can you think of other ways to beat your opponent? Is there something you can create that they don't have. Do you look at another organization and say, "they have things we don't have. How do we change that? How do we get what they have, and how do we improve on what we think they have?"
There are a lot of really smart people in the game who are always looking to be challenged by a new line of thinking, and they're always looking to say "is there something else we can use to evaluate?" If you're not evolving, you're falling behind. That's the way it is now, you're constantly looking for new ways to get an edge on your opponent, and so you're always trying to think of new ways to get that edge.
TD: One of the best things about your thirty thoughts columns are the oftentimes anonymous opinions you get from players, coaches and decision-makers. In your experience, which teams, do you think look the most for these new ideas, or have that competitive edge to the highest degree?
EF: Well Vancouver certainly does – there's no question about that. San Jose certainly does… I'll give you another example, I think that one of the reasons Calgary hired John Weisbrod is because he's one of the guys who believes in that, and they wanted to bring more of it into their organization. I think Boston has certain ways that they do some things - I really got that impression. I don't know about Toronto's management staff, if they're big into it, but their coaching staff certainly is. The Penguins would be for sure, they're the most open about it. I also think Detroit, probably a little bit more than they let on.
TD: I'd like to share a couple of contrasting quotes with you, and get your take on them. The first is Brian Burke when he appeared on the B.S. Report in May. Bill Simmons asked Burke: "the whole statistical movement… for some reason hasn't trickled into hockey like it has into some of these other sports… is hockey just a sport that you can't really measure with statistics." To which Burke replied, and this may be turtling: "I keep looking at these things… the sport that lends itself best to statistical analysis is baseball. It's a series of one on one confrontations that are repetitive… Our game is way more spontaneous, we use films for systems and tendencies, but great players aren't going to do the same thing every time so I don't think it has the same benefit"
The other quote is from a Dave Feschuk article about Canucks defender Chris Tanev – who could be a poster-boy for the "moneypuck" movement. Feschuk quotes Tanev's father, and his father chalks up his son's passing ability, and poise with the puck partly to the time he spent playing roller hockey; but also to the families application of baseball principles on ice. "Baseball teaches you situations — 'What are you going to do with the ball when the ball comes to you? I introduced that system to Christopher when he was 7 years old — 'What are you going to do with the puck when the puck comes to you?'"
So which take on hockey – that it's "largely spontaneous and immeasurable" versus "in subtle ways – it's in fact repetitive and predictable" strikes you as more convincing?
EF: Here's the thing with me, and the problem with the whole "statistical movement" versus "non-statistical movement" thing. I don't know why this has happened, maybe it's because of Moneyball and people just don't like Billy Beane. I mean, Billy Beane does sort of come off as an arrogant guy in that book. But I just don't understand why people have to say it's one or the other, and I'll tell you this, some of the worst people when it comes to arguing about that - are some of the people on either side of the debate.
To me they're probably both right to some degree. Brian Burke is right in that there are a lot of things in hockey that maybe you can't predict for like you can in baseball. But I also think that Mike Tanev is right in the sense that you have to ask yourself okay, when you're in this situation, what are you going to do? I mean, why do people practice – it's because it's repetition.
I think part of the problem is that people who believe solely in statistical analysis forget an unquantifiable thing called "heart." I can't tell you how many times, when I've had conversations about this, people who believe in statistics don't believe in heart, or they don't believe in pressure. And I hate that, because the reason they don't believe in it is because it's foreign to them, and non-quantifiable. And I think that's terrible, and really dumb thinking. To me I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle.
If I was a general-manager or if I was developing a player, I would be looking for everything. I want to see how a player competes, I want to see how a player battles, I want to see who is a good teammate and who isn't. If you just hand me a spreadsheet…
Like the whole thing about the way the A's drafted Jeremy Brown, is so crazy to me. I mean with a spreadsheet, and Paul De Podesta's laptop – and the guy never makes it, because they don't know what he's prepared to handle. To me the A's drafted the guy and ruined his career in the same moment. In the same moment they destroyed their own asset. I look at that and I say "you know what, that's outrageous."
So to me the answer is in the middle – if you have the number one overall draft pick you should be looking at "so who is this guy, what is he all about, what are his strengths and weaknesses," and then you should have somebody who is in charge of analysis saying, "well this is what we've learned about him, and this is what our concerns are, and now we have to figure out how to address that." If you're not using everything, you're not being good at your job, that's what I believe.
TD: Lots of stat geeks looked at this years Selke nominations and were shocked. Toews and Kesler, for example, were not even the "elite defensive centers" on their own teams. Do you think we'll reach a point where the PHWA is prioritizing zone-starts and events against, so that hockey can have a Frans Nielsen, "Felix Hernandez" type Selke winner?
EF: Yeah I think absolutely it will get there. I tell you, when I was voting last year (and I think I voted for Kesler) I remember I was being lobbied for Frans Nielsen. I had a few people that said to me well look at Frans Nielsen. I did. It's not like I didn't consider him. But one of the reasons I voted for Kesler over Malhotra myself, is that I think being a defensive player isn't only about being a defensive player. I think if you're a two-way player, and an offensive threat – to me you're automatically a better defensive player.
Everybody knows what a great defensive player Pavel Datsyuk is – but why is that? It's not only because he back-checks, it's because he's always got the frigging puck. You can't take it off him, no matter where you are on the ice. So if he's playing against your best players, and you can't get the puck, he nullifies your guy. I think a guy like Kesler is not in Datsyuk's class - but I think about it that way. If this is a guy who is a 40 goal threat, and is a threat to score more than Malhotra is, does that not make him automatically, if they're both really good defensive players, doesn't that make Kesler better?
To get back to Nielsen – last year, there were a few people, and Islanders fans saying, "look at him." I think you're silly if you don't listen, and people were constructing some reasonably good arguments, so I watched a few more games in depth, and he looks like he could be a really good player.
I think sometimes people take it as an insult "oh my guy didn't win – these reporters are morons and they don't know anything." I understand sometimes that people look at us reporters and say "they're not into statistical analysis" and I would probably agree to that to some extent. When you're a man or woman who covers a team everyday – you're probably going more by feel than you would be stats, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do find that I read more people who use some of these statistical arguments, and make sense with them. And I think there are some reporters who are more open-minded. But it's hard to be when you're following a team around every day, and you watch 80, or 100, or however many games it is, and you've got somebody telling you "no, you're an idiot! You should be watching Frans Nielsen, instead of somebody else" – I understand how people would say, "well I'm not listening to that jerk."
TD: I definitely think an issue with stat-heads to some extent is our lack of political savvy… Sometimes we fail to calibrate our arguments in a way so as to not make the person hearing them defensive, thanks Elliotte.
EF: No worries Thomas.
** Thanks again to Elliotte for his time and exceptional answers.
EF has been the premier sports reporter in Canada for the last 5 years. He does his homework and is always a delight to listen too. If CBC is smart they will pay him a mint to keep him, because he`s essentially MacLean replacement in ten years. CBC`s lost many of their good guys. MacLean, Oake, Friedman, Hewsen and the Don are the only ones I got time for anymore. The rest are weak (don`t get me going on PJ Stock, worst commentary in hockey today), and if TSN ever gets their claws into EF, I`d love the to hear the insightful debate between Mackenzie and Friedman. It would not get any better then that.
I can't believe Friedman hasn't been scooped up by TSN or RSN yet. Seems like he is being wasted on CBC.
October 06 2011, 01:39PM
Really good stuff. Thanks Thom.
" I definitely think an issue with stat-heads to some extent is our lack of political savvy… Sometimes we fail to calibrate our arguments in a way so as to not make the person hearing them defensive."
Case in point, Mudcrutch79. ;)
October 06 2011, 02:05PM
On the "heart" point... Naturally, I disagree with Elliotte, on the very principle that "heart" isn't anything quantifiable. If a quality doesn't lead to goals or lead to wins, by definition it doesn't matter. I think that the most undervalued players in the league are the ones who are viewed to not have "heart" but have the skill-set to compete. They just aren't political enough to get themselves into top-six minutes.
I remember something Bryan Murray said last year about wanting to be the team "taking the shots" when he signed Sergei Gonchar. Obviously that didn't work out, but this summer he took a flyer on Nikita Filatov and got him for cheap. I think that while both moves were made under the same principle, he overpaid for Gonchar and underpaid for Filatov.
Lots of great stuff in here. Good interview, Thom.
October 06 2011, 02:13PM
Great interview! GOOOO NATIONS!!!
October 06 2011, 02:25PM
Awesome stuff. Elliote is by far the best person on the HNIC crew.
Great guy. My wife and I got a chance to meet him and most of the HNIC crew last year at a Heritage mixer and he was fantastic. We were being all shy not wanting to bug the NHL players on staff and Elliotte made us feel right at home. Introduced us to everyone and made us feel like we knew him other than him being a forced host at CBC media event.
Can't say enough about the guy and not surprised he took the time out to go over and above even after his child's birth. CBC scooped him from the Score a few years back and with his work it won't be long until one of the big 2 Sports networks get their claws into him.
great read. thanks.
I was thinking about the question regarding the approaches to the game (Burke's answer versus Tanev's). From a defencemans perspective you want structure, "when you see this, do that". You may not have time to think so you want it to be instinctive.
From the forward perspective you are trying to break down the structure of the defense to create a hole or get someone out of position. A lack of pattern, creativity is the need there, which reflects what I think Burke's position is in his response.
Friedman's answer of both being part of the answer makes sense to me, viewing it from that sort of approach.
October 06 2011, 04:03PM
I was thinking about the question regarding the approaches to the game (Burke's answer versus Tanev's). From a defencemans perspective you want structure, "when you see this, do that". You may not have time to think so you want it to be instinctive.
From the forward perspective you are trying to break down the structure of the defense to create a hole or get someone out of position. A lack of pattern, creativity is the need there, which reflects what I think Burke's position is in his response.
Friedman's answer of both being part of the answer makes sense to me, viewing it from that sort of approach.
Really good point.
Defense = structure and repetition
Offense = creativity and chaos
I can't believe Friedman hasn't been scooped up by TSN or RSN yet. Seems like he is being wasted on CBC.
Like it or not, HNIC is big money broadcasting, very profitable, lots of big talent. I'd say Jim Hughson is the best PBP guy in the game and he's on the mothercorp. Makes sense to have one of the better analysts there too.
October 06 2011, 04:19PM
EF should be a politician. "Question: Do you prefer A or B? Answer: I like both A and B..."
He really comes across as an intelligent person. Could he have a future with an NHL team as a management-type or are those spots saved for the Lawyers/Ex-NHLers?
Great article Thomas, thank you for the insight.
Thanks for a great read. Glad to hear the Flames are looking for that edge with Weisbrod. Flames have a busy travel schedule, and that sleep system seems incredible, do the Flames operate one as well? Their travel is nearly as bad as Vancouver's.
October 06 2011, 04:36PM
@Cam Charron
"If a quality doesn't lead to goals or lead to wins, by definition it doesn't matter"
That the quality cannot be measured is exactly why you cannot link it to goals and wins. What is there to link? You have a number of goals or wins in one column, and something that cannot be measured in the other. It is an unknown.
You are looking at it and saying that it doesnt lead to wins without even realizing that you simply lack the tools to even make that judgement.
There is no EA sports Leadership, Character, or Heart stat to even draw a line between them and wins or goals. How could you conceivably come to the conclusion that one has nothing to do with the other given that you lack the information required to make that calculation?
October 06 2011, 06:51PM
Awesome stuff, Thom.
I've had a brief interaction with Elliotte that paints a pretty good picture of the man. When I was interning for the Hockey News earlier this year I had a chance to cover a Boston - Toronto game at the ACC and during the scrums I got cut off and shouldered and elbowed out of the way by several reporters during the mad scramble to get to the front of the scrum, save for one reporter who saw me in the back looking pretty helpless and removed himself from the scrum and allowed me to go into his position of prime real estate to the left of Patrice Bergeron. It was Elliotte Friedman who didn't know me, or who I was reporting for. I was a nameless face in the crowd. A terrific reporter and a compassionate man.
Agree with Elliott's balanced approach to the meaning of statistics and doing an analysis of players and how to develop them using strengths and weaknesses. EF's sincere "niceness" as a man comes through in his broadcasting work and he does prepare well and thus the great informatino he gives.
OK. You know what? This was kinda cool. I'm not a sports stats guy, but it's interesting to hear how NHL teams apply them.
October 07 2011, 08:33AM
Never great to be on the other side of Elliotte in a hockey debate, but I'm pretty comfortable saying what I wrote was accurate.
There are definitely quite a few teams making only the most basic use of stats in a Moneypuck sense and that alone puts hockey behind the other big three sports. This is changing, but right now, there's plenty of resistance in orgs to this type of thing.
Just look at the story Gabe relayed about a GM basically writing off his work as a gimmick. And even with teams like the Pens, there's widespread skepticism (in and out of org) whether what they're doing is of value.
Long way to go.
October 07 2011, 08:56AM
I wonder if the apparent difference between Mirtle's reporting and Elliotte's views lies in what truly constitutes "advanced stats". I don't know what precisely Elliotte thinks teams are tracking, but maybe it's analogous to Joe Girardi thinking he relies on "statistics" because he leans heavily on batter vs. pitcher matchups (which sabermetric types scoff at because of sample size issues).
Of course Friedman admitted it was largely speculation since most teams deny any use of advanced stats.
October 07 2011, 09:32AM
"I think part of the problem is that people who believe solely in statistical analysis forget an unquantifiable thing called "heart."-Elliot Freedman
October 07 2011, 09:32AM
P.S. Great interview. keep it coming!
October 07 2011, 10:18AM
Wonderful, wonderful piece. The balance and sense of context shown by Elliotte Friedman are 1st rate and it is wonderful to see ON pursue this sort of conversation.
This is the sort of piece that could benefit from national exposure, yeah?
@Cam Charron
"Naturally, I disagree with Elliotte, on the very principle that "heart" isn't anything quantifiable. If a quality doesn't lead to goals or lead to wins, by definition it doesn't matter."
How do you know that heart doesn't lead to goals or wins? You just inadvertently reinforced Elliott's point.
October 07 2011, 10:25AM
"If a quality doesn't lead to goals or lead to wins, by definition it doesn't matter"
That the quality cannot be measured is exactly why you cannot link it to goals and wins. What is there to link? You have a number of goals or wins in one column, and something that cannot be measured in the other. It is an unknown.
You are looking at it and saying that it doesnt lead to wins without even realizing that you simply lack the tools to even make that judgement.
There is no EA sports Leadership, Character, or Heart stat to even draw a line between them and wins or goals. How could you conceivably come to the conclusion that one has nothing to do with the other given that you lack the information required to make that calculation?
Oddly enough, to an extent I agree with you.
There certainly is no tailor-made EA Sports style stat or attribute for any of these things and it's so tough to see that its there. One of the best arguments I've seen for "grit" element is that "I can't describe it, but I know when it's there"
What's our definition for "grit" or "clutchness" thus far? A guy who speaks up in the locker-room or a captain who fights? Losing teams tend to have these sorts of players too. The fact that we can't define exactly what it means to have heart and it's not anything we can look for means that it may be something we should put to the wayside.
I think that a player can develop leadership over the course of the season, and you can give a guy like Nikolay Zherdev a real chance, sit him down and have an honest conversation and he will buy into the system. There's no more way to disprove that notion than to say "Zherdev doesn't have intangibles".
October 07 2011, 10:27AM
Well, we published it across the Network. We'll see if anyone else picks it up.
October 07 2011, 11:11AM
@Cam Charron
"The fact that we can't define exactly what it means to have heart and it's not anything we can look for means that it may be something we should put to the wayside."
I have to disagree. That it is difficult to define just makes it something that is impossible to tackle using only empirical methods. It does not mean that it might be something we should put to the wayside. Maybe those who solely focus on stats should put it to the wayside, since heart and character dont play nice on Excel spreadsheets. However, there is still a place for heart and character in the analysis of hockey players.
Heart and Character are subjective, but so are the interpretations of corsi, qualcomp, and every other stat available. I mean, you yourself wrote that based on the numbers you thought Omark should have been the Oilers Selke nominee. If that's not proof of the inherent subjectivity in these statistics then I dont know what is.
Bottom line is that even the things we can define are subject to enough interpretation and viewed through enough filters that what they represent is as difficult to nail down as the meaning of "heart".
October 07 2011, 01:59PM
The notion of "Heart" or "Grit" being unmeasurable is a bit misleading. "Heart" and "Grit" are often terms used for players with a hard working, focused, never give up attitude on the ice. Those terms are often used for players that don't necessarily have the natural talent of some, but get the job done through hard work. In that sense of the words, "grit" and "heart" will show up in stats. If such qualities do in fact exist and matter they will show up with more hits, shots, and goals for and fewer against when the player is on the ice.
What may not show up in stats is leadership and/or ones influence on his teammates that he isn't on the ice with. Can a player, in some way influence the play of his teammates when that player is not on the ice with them? It is certainly possible. One players hard work and dedication may rub off on his teammates. A quality veteran may act as a mentor to younger players. Or conversely, one bad attitude may spoil an otherwise cohesive team. But generally speaking, I don't think any one single player can have a significant impact on his teammates performance when not on the ice together. I am rather skeptical that "heart" and "grit" are completely unaccounted for in a statistical evaluation of players.


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Liberal Arts: The Search for Meaning through Culture
by Jim Larner, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Music | Jan 02, 2013
As we celebrate the 75th anniversary of Marian University in Indianapolis, it seems appropriate to reflect on what makes an education from Marian University distinctive. Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is our Catholic identity. But what also sets us apart from other institutions is our commitment to a liberal arts education. This emphasis on the liberal arts provides our students with life skills that reach beyond any chosen career path and explores common themes experienced by human beings through the ages.
Each student at Marian University takes courses required in the general education curriculum. These courses assure a well-rounded education and a firm grounding in the liberal arts. One of the most distinctive courses is Humanities, an interdisciplinary course, team taught by professors of music, art, and literature. At other institutions, this type of course is taught as a broad overview of western culture, where students become culturally literate by learning to identify masterworks of the past.
Cultural literacy is very important, but in our humanities course it is only the first level of engagement. The subtitle of the course is "The Search for Meaning through Culture," which accurately describes a major goal of the course. This fall, nearly 200 students will read the epic of Gilgamesh. Most scholars agree that this story is based on an actual human being who lived around 2800 B.C. E in Uruk—present day Iraq. According to the legend, Gilgamesh is a powerful young king and although he protects his people from outside forces, he is an arrogant and abusive king. The people of Uruk pray to the gods for help. The gods intervene by sending Gilgamesh a friend with whom he shares many adventures. When his friend suddenly dies, Gilgamesh experiences such mourning that he decides to go on a quest for immortality. I don't suppose it will surprise you to learn that he doesn't achieve immortality—and yet here we are 5,000 years later talking about him. Why is Gilgamesh still remembered after all these years? He is remembered for the transformation he experiences on his journey. He sets off on a quest which seemingly ends in failure, but through his journey he learns a far more important lesson. He comes back to Uruk a benevolent and beloved king and thus does, in a way, achieve the immortality he sought.
So what do Marian University students learn from studying Gilgamesh? We can look at the various levels of learning that take place. The first level is the level of cultural literacy. This is the Jeopardy level. Students will know that Gilgamesh was a king who lived long ago and went on a quest for immortality. Beyond this level, they will learn about the cultural values and concerns of an ancient civilization. They will learn about the art and the music of those people and what they were trying to communicate to the world. Next is a deeper level where students are able to interpret Gilgamesh's journey as a metaphor for someone who had to endure many trials to learn how to become fully human. And finally, students learn how to explore the lessons of Gilgamesh and apply them to their own lives and the world around them. That is "the search for meaning through culture."
Like Gilgamesh, our students are on a difficult quest—to earn a degree. Like Gilgamesh, they may have lofty goals—maybe to become the chief executive officer of a Fortune 500 company. Progressing toward their goal they will face many challenges, successes, and failures. How they deal with those experiences will reveal their underlying character. With an emphasis on the liberal arts, Marian University prepares students to assess challenges from multiple perspectives. I hope we all agree that we don't want our leaders making decisions based solely on "the bottom line," or worse, making decisions based on personal gain. We need leaders who can evaluate a situation from multiple perspectives. We need leaders with a strong moral and ethical foundation. We need leaders who have learned and value the quality of empathy—the ability to have insight, respect, and compassion for others. The liberal arts foundation that Marian University provides prepares our students to make well-informed, values-based decisions.
There is more and more emphasis on professional instruction in higher education today—and certainly that is very important—but there is also a danger in placing too much emphasis on the transitory nature of career preparation. The pace at which the practical knowledge of a vocation is changing is unprecedented. Information that freshmen learn may well be obsolete by the time they are seniors. The advent of the computer age has changed every profession—but has it changed the lessons learned from Homer and Dante? Has it made the music of Bach and Beethoven or the art of Michelangelo and Van Gogh obsolete? There are elements of learning that are timeless. In fact, we might say the lessons of the great works are actually timely in that they of evolve throughout our lifetime. Think for a moment of an influential book that you have read more than once. Did the message of the book evolve with repeated readings?
I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Oscar Wilde. We don't want to graduate students who "know the price of everything and the value of nothing." Through a liberal arts education, our students learn values necessary to create a better world. And Marian University is creating a better world by transforming lives—one student at a time. This is our goal. This is what makes an education from Marian University truly distinctive.
Contact Us
Marian University
3200 Cold Spring Road
Indianapolis, Indiana 46222
Employment Opportunities
Privacy Policy
Non-Discrimination/Title IX
Marian University is sponsored by the Sisters of St. Francis, Oldenburg, Indiana.
© 2012 Marian University
Notice of Nondiscrimination
Marian University does not discriminate on the basis of race, ethnicity, color, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religion, creed, national origin, age or disabilities in the recruiting and selection of students for admission.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
The Benrud Family Church committee was re-organized and has held two meetings since the successful move and remodel of the Norwegian Evangelical Church, known as the Little White Church on Water Street in Sparta, Wisconsin, to Norskedalen. The Benrud family worked with Morrow Homes of Sparta, owner of the former church, who donated it to the Benrud family, who in turn has donated it to Norskedalen.
Following the successful move of the former church in July to the Norskedalen grounds, the church was put back together, and the remodeling is complete, except for the painting of the new cedar siding, which will happen in the spring.
The committee, consisting of representatives of Norskedalen and representatives of the Benrud family, has met twice to oversee the completion of the project. Due to the continued generosity of the Benrud family, there was enough funds beyond the initial $152,000 required for the move and remodel, and the $80,000 endowment given to Norskedalen for the perpetual care of the building, to add furnishings to the inside of the chapel. At the first meeting in September, a pulpit and pastor's chair was donated by a Benrud family member. Further work has resulted in the donation of at least one pulpit. The chapel remodeler, Alan Arnold, donated a simple wooden altar back and the committee is overseeing the completion of an altar that will be a close replica of the original. Pictures and descriptions of the inside and outside of the original Little White Church have allowed the committee and the Benrud family to restore the appearance of the original to the extent possible. The Trinity Lutheran Church (the church that began with the Little White Church in Sparta) had preserved some of the original pews – they have donated these pews and others are being built as replicas for the chapel. Trinity has also generously donated the original pump organ.
The committee has finalized the name and presented it to the Norskedalen board who has accepted it: it will be known as the Benrud Little White Chapel. Donations that were made to specific projects as part of the 19 year Benrud family quest to build a church at Norskedalen will be designated with plaques on the appropriate item, e.g. windows, steeple, door, display units, etc. Even though the estimated costs may have differed from the previous fundraising campaign, the donors will be recognized for their generosity if they donated the full designated amount. Many of the final actual costs, e.g. windows, were actually higher because the Benrud family chose to create replicas of the original.
Our committee will work with the property committee to complete the landscaping and to add other furnishings as donations make this possible. The chapel windows and doors were decorated by co-chair, Ruth Amundson, for Christmas and the chapel will be available by early spring for visitors. Committee member, David Amundson, has been photographing this incredible project throughout the process – the committee is very indebted to him for his ongoing work. A very special thank you goes to Curt Benrud for his hundreds of hours and miles in making this project happen. Curt is currently working on coordinating the reconstruction of pews and with fulfilling the Norskedalen decision to use wood heat rather than the original proposed and funded gas heat and air conditioning. We also with to thank committee member, Tip Bagstad, who has continued to work on the final Benrud Little White Chapel, as well as to support the efforts of the Benrud family in their quest of the past 19 years.
Finally, all are invited to the dedication of the Benrud Little White Chapel that will take place on Sunday morning, August 1. Questions, please e-mail me at firstname.lastname@example.com or call 414-745-4362.


text:
Stress-related genes may be preferentially and rhythmically expressed as part of the circadian rhythms of older fruit flies, researchers report.
Discovering Archaea, 1977
March 1, 2014|
Ribosomal RNA fingerprints reveal the three domains of life.
March 1, 2014|
Ribosomal RNA fingerprints reveal the three domains of life.
May 1, 2013|
Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin's unheralded codiscoverer of the theory of evolution by natural selection, found inspiration in the specimens he collected on his travels.
April 1, 2013|
A bizarre group of Antarctic fishes lost their red blood cells but survived to tell their evolutionary tale, revealing a fundamental lesson about the birth and death of genes.
October 1, 2012|
A unique organism sighted only once, more than a century ago, could shed light on the evolution of multicellularity—if it ever actually existed.
July 1, 2012|
The discovery of the 2.5-million-year-old Taung Child skull marked a turning point in the study of human brain evolution.
October 1, 2011|
Twenty-five years later, the magazine is still hitting many of the same key discussion points of science.
October 1, 2011|
An early advocate of the sequencing of the human genome reflects on his own predictions from 1986.
August 1, 2011|
After completing his studies in medicine and biology, a restless Ernst Haeckel set off for Italy in 1859 to study art and marine biology. The diversity of life fascinated the 26-year-old Prussian, and in addition to painting landscapes, he spent the
June 4, 2011|
As epidemics swept across the United States in the 19th century, the US government recognized the pressing need for a national lab dedicated to the study of infectious disease.
Page 1 of 1


text:
Eagle Creek Hub Bi-Fold Wallet Black.
When it comes to securing your important items, nothing beats the reliability of the Eagle Creek Hub Bi-Fold Wallet. This black traditional wallet with a detachable insert comes with a horizontal opening for easy access to your cash and cards. To keep your bills securely tucked inside the wallet, it features a full-length bill compartment with extra hidden bill compartment. And if you want to take your credit card and ID anywhere you go, you can use the detachable credit card/ID holder to keep your items in place. An ID window, on the other hand, lets you easily place and display your ID. Also equipped with four credit card pockets, and two multi-use pockets, this wallet provides just enough organization and security for your credit cards and bills. Go ahead and use the Eagle Creek Hub Bi-Fold Wallet to securely carry your cash and ID!


text:
PRICE - Our loving father and grandfather, Dewitt Daniel "Jack" Cotner, age 76, reunited with his loving wife of 56 years on March 1, 2003, while quietly passing away at his home from a broken heart.
He was born July 12, 1926 in Waco, Neb., to Ira and Adena Sands Cotner.
Married Beverly Lou Easton, Jan. 24, 1946 in San Diego, Calif. Marriage later solemnized in the Manti LDS Temple. She died Dec. 30, 2002.
Member of the LDS Church. Served in the U.S. Navy during World War II. Jack loved the outdoors, he enjoyed working on the trout farm in Pocatello, Idaho and in 1969 opened the first private pheasant hunting in the Carbon-Emery area. He was a retired member of the United Mine Workers of America, Deer Creek Local 1769. Jack served on and was over the Miller Creek Water Special Service District, and also served on the Carbon County Planning and Zoning Committee and the Price River Water Improvement District Board. His greatest love was farming alongside Beverly, and in 2001 the family was awarded the Soil Conservation Award for Carbon County farmers. Jack loved his grandchildren and great-grandchildren and will be dearly missed by family and a community of longtime friends.
Survived by sons, Kip D. (Glenna) Cotner, Ferron; Kevin D. (Kayleen) Cotner, Price; brother, Ora Cotner, Salem, Ore.; sisters, Hazel Butcher, San Diego, Calif.; Wilma Kohls, Fruita, Colo.; six grandchildren, Kasidy, Kandice, Kyla, Kacey, KayDee and Kale; three great-grandchildren, Danay Kenden and Kyler. Preceded in death by parents; brother, Denzel; and sister, Goldie.
Funeral service Thursday, March 6, 11 a.m., Price 3rd LDS Ward. Family will be at Mitchell Funeral Home Wednesday evening from 6 to 8 p.m. and at the church Thursday one hour prior to service. Interment, Cliffview Cemetery, Price.


text:
G by GUESS Cavio Platform Sandal
Sorry, this item is sold out!
Looks like you've got more shoe shopping to do - have fun!
Looks like you've got more shoe shopping to do - have fun!
Item # 246413
Start the season in style! The G by GUESS Cavio will take your look to new heights with its espadrille platform and strappy styling.
- Faux leather upper
- Adjustable heel strap
- Round toe
- 1½" espadrille platform, 5" covered heel
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- Imported
- View more Women's G by GUESS Shoes
By: SassyMM
Location: WNY
February 09, 2013
Cute & Comfy
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January 18, 2013
Amazing but...
"I love them but it looks like they were previously worn. I bought them online but they have scuffs on sides and heel :("
By: LadyD76
Location: MD
October 18, 2012
pink heaven
"love the look love the feel"
By: georgiaonmymind
Location: villa rica
September 12, 2012
Love these shoes !!!!!!
"these shoes are great comfortable and will go with everything"
Click anywhere to close this.


text:
Worst of 2011: Elisabeth Moss's Emmy hair
December 9, 2011 18:26:07 Posted at December 9, 2011 18:26:07 Photos:
Wenn, Bauer
Wenn, Bauer
If you can believe it, Katherine Heigl's wasn't the worst hair of the year. Almost...
But then Elisabeth Moss took the Heigl and amplified the sh-tness of it. And this is what she gave us. Why don't you take a minute, let the horror wash over you...
There is no pleasure in Moss's hair failings. Because of this, I can no longer compare Heigl to Kristen Wiig as the Lawrence Welk sister anymore. Elisabeth Moss has fully taken over. In other words, she's depriving us of some Hate on Heigl fun. How did this happen???


text:
Beauty Shoot: Soak It In
Enjoy your sunny Mexican getaway in a mix of impossibly bright hues, festive patterns, and strategically placed cut-outs. Don't forget the sunscreen!
1. Mara Hoffman dress, $363, Net-a-Porter.
2. Sheriff&Cherry sunglasses, $151, Sheriff&Cherry.
3. Agent Provocateur bikini, $220, Agent Provocateur.
4. J.Crew straw hat, $34.50, J.Crew.
5. Jimmy Choo wedge sandal, $435, Nordstrom.
6. Dolce & Gabbana raffia shoulder bag, $363, Net-a-Porter.
Take a long weekend at this preppy American landmark with patriotic stripes, crisp whites, and structured lines.
1. Vix Swimwear maxi dress, $121, Shopbop.
2. Karen Walker deep freeze sunglasses, $329, Karen Walker.
3. Milly Biarritz boat-print bikini, $175, Net-a-Porter.
4. J.Crew printed iPhone 4 case, $25, J.Crew.
5. Pierre Hardy espadrille sandals, $695, Saks Fifth Avenue.
6. Marc Jacobs leather tote, $716, Nordstrom.
The Best of the amfAR Red Carpet in Cannes


text:
Industry News
Palm Beach Boat Show Begins Tomorrow!
Posted by Chris Savage on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 at 12:00:00 am
The Palm Beach International Boat Show begins tomorrow and runs through the 25th of March.
This is the 27th annual boat show that have done in Palm Beach, FL.
Featuring $350 million worth of boats and accessories. In-water portion of the show is on the Intracoastal Waterway along Flagler Drive, show entrances at Evernia St./Flagler Dr. (waterfront) and North Clematis St./Flagler Dr. (waterfront).
Ticket costs:
- Adults: $14 each
- Kids (6-14): $5 each
- Kids under 6 are FREE
- Save $2 each ticket if you order online
- FREE shuttle buses to and from boat show
- Thurs. Mar 22, 12 Noon - 7p.m.
- Fri. Mar 23, 10a.m. - 7p.m.
- Sat. Mar 24, 10a.m. - 7p.m.
- Sun. Mar 25, 10a.m. - 6p.m.
Brought to you by Foster's Yacht Services (FYS)
Posted by Chris Savage on Friday, March 2, 2012 at 12:00:00 am
Foster's Yacht Services
World Renowned Private Website Tracking System (One Of A Kind)
FYS is the only Yacht Service and repair company, not only in South Florida but in all the United States, that allows owners, Captains, Insurance companies, surveyors, adjusters, underwriters, friends and family to follow and track the progress of their repair service or refit project. Doing so with pictures, text, verbiage and video and also daily and weekly schedules as far as what work has been completed or not completed and when it is scheduled to be completed. They can also have their invoicing on line as per a special request only. It is especially helpful for Insurance Companies to track the damage repair and ensures there will not be any other claims for that particular project ever again, as the website stays active in our system for many years for complete documentation. It helps dealers commissioning vessels to track and keep records for all warranty work and the same for manufacturers. It also equally helps the Captains and owners by allowing them to click on the site and watch the project evolve fully documented and managed. Wow, what a way to follow the transformation of the refit or repair right online from your computer with others as well, and watch it come together.
Says owner Dennis Foster, President & CEO of Foster's -
Dennis says the reason why he created this process, was that owners, Captains, brokers and surveyors would call him every 5 minutes asking him what's going on with my boat and when will it be finished. There is only value added here at Foster's where owners can stay informed and watch every step of the process 24/7 right from the comfort of their computer.
We wouldn't have it any other way, says Dennis Foster, it has been very well received by our very demanding customers and provides us with a way to give them exactly what they want, a way to be kept informed through the entire project from start to finish.


text:
6 Units of Glominex Glitter Glow Paint Pint - Yellow
Supplier Details
Verified Supplier (2009)
[ Brooklyn, New York, United States ]
Business Type: Wholesaler
Supplier has 77,280 products
Product Description
Our yellow glitter glow paint 16 ounce jar is fun for everyone! The paint glows in the dark and looks like regular paint in daylight. Each jar holds 16 ounces of non-flammable, acid-free glitter paint. Sold one 8 ounce jar per pack. Caution: This product is not recommended for children under 3 years of age. For safety, do not use on your skin/hair.
Basic Information
About Us
Premier Online Wholesaler and Closeout Dealer on the web. We help small businesses to compete against larger enterprises by offering more than 25,000 high-quality goods at prices close to those at which large chains purchase.
All Time Trading sells its products by the case and prices the goods by the truckload. The company helps its customers to select those items, both seasonal and everyday, which sell quickly to promote both a higher inventory turn and better margins.
Member History
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text:
1 Flash Intro Templates and counting!
Kantrop's Wide Flash Intro Templates
The single template in this section was created by our web designer Kantrop. Wide screen monitors are more popular now than ever, giving web designers more space to work with. It's amazing what you can do, and how much more information you can present to your visitors with wider layouts. If you're looking for flash intro templates that utilize most of the available browser viewing area, these wide flash intro templates are the bigger picture. Wide Flash intro templates are well liked because they often have exciting visual effects, sound, and motion. They are good at keeping the customer's attention while highlighting the best features of the product. Our flash intro templates are basically a presentation movie that represents a website or product that can be customized to meet the individual requirements of the project.
Page Number: 1


text: This tuna melt is the best! When I saw the double layer of cheese, I just had to give it a try. This is unique. The layer of cheese melted over the top engulfs the tuna salad and keeps it in place. What a great dish to serve while watching a football game. You and your guests will love it. I doubled this recipe and substituted white bread. It made a total of eight sandwiches.


text:
Type: Bug
Status: Closed
Priority: Blocker
Resolution: Fixed
Component/s: moodle.org
As reported by Mayank Gupta in dev chat:
06:03:11 PM) Mayank Gupta: Moodle Website Currently Unavailable?
(06:03:38 PM) Davo Smith: looks fine from here
(06:04:40 PM) sam marshall: confirmed, loading here too
(06:05:27 PM) Mayank Gupta: Its not working here (India) Getting this error message - Website Currently UnavailableThe website you are trying to access is currently unavailable. Please try again at a later time.If you are the site owner, review the following resource to help <http://www.cloudflare.com/wiki/I_keep_seeing_%22My_Site_is_Offline%22> resolve the issue.
(06:08:13 PM) Mayank Gupta: I checked it from another static IP - my windows based server, its opening fine there :0
(06:13:34 PM) sam marshall: jtomkinson was saying earlier how much it had reduced system usage... obviously that's by not letting people connect...
(06:13:44 PM) sam marshall: I think it may ban users based on IP range
(06:13:51 PM) sam marshall: but don't know in detail
(06:14:49 PM) Mayank Gupta: sam: yeah, I read that message too. But, it was working fine for me like 20 minutes back. Why did it block anyway?
(06:18:28 PM) Mayank Gupta: Let me just disconnect and reconnect again. Would give me a new IP lets see.
(06:26:35 PM) Mayank Gupta: Moodle.org is still unavailable for me. Thought its pinging fine ::
(06:37:49 PM) Mayank Gupta: No Helen, it did not ask me for a captcha. I just see this site unavailable page - http://awesomescreenshot.com/084uaac8a
Gliffy Diagrams
Issue Links
- is duplicated by
MDLSITE-1730 Website Unavailable in Community Forums - CloudFlare Protection
- Closed
MDLSITE-1759 website currently unavailable
- Closed
- will be (partly) resolved by
MDLSITE-1735 Moodle.org peformance bottlenecks from perf logs
- Closed
- All
- Comments
- Work Log
- History
- Activity
- Links Hierarchy
Helen, thanks for creating the tracker issue.
Just attaching the screenshot here, the link of the screenshot in
the description is a temporary one.
Moodle.org for me is occasionally unavailable but more often very, very slow. Was fine earlier today though.
The screen Mayank Gupta is seeing is not a result of being blocked, filtered or banned.
This is the page you see when our backend webserver for moodle.org is unavailable, but at that point in time it was operating fine so I would chalk it up to a problem on Cloudflare's end most likely isolated to your geographical area.
I will lodge a support ticket with them anyway.
I'm now having problems too, with repeated cloudflare website currently unavailable messages, even though others in the dev chat say that moodle.org works for them.
A ticket has been lodged with cloudflare support over the 'website offline' error
Can not access...receive error "Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at moodle.org." I am a very frequent visitor, at least a few times a day and have never hadissues before. Now both FIrefow and Chrome have the same error.
I'm supposed to take my MCCC test and the site is down... very frustrating!
Could you please tell me what DNS Address you are getting for moodle.org ?
in Windows you can find this by running cmd.exe and typing 'nslookup moodle.org'
in OSX run Terminal and type 'host moodle.org'
please paste the output or attach a screenshot
We've been unable to view moodle.org for a couple of days now.
$ host moodle.org
moodle.org has address 126.96.36.199
moodle.org mail is handled by 100 smtp.easydns.com.
moodle.org mail is handled by 5 mail.moodle.org.
moodle.org mail is handled by 50 moodle.org.
Hi Jordan,
This is what I see when I run nslookup
Name: moodle.org
Address: 126.96.36.199
I haven't been able to get on last couple of days either. Trying to download plugins to add to new moodle site and unable to get those. Hope this gets resolved soon.
I need to take the MCCC certification test!!! I have to get on - help!
moodle.org's dns was updated over 2 weeks ago and that address should not be being served
please ask your IT department / Internet provider to flush the DNS cache
As a temporary workaround I have enabled access from the old IP
please note this is temporary and it wont last long so you should remedy this issue on your end as soon as possible
its been one week and i have not heard back from anyone regarding this issue
I will close this issue on Monday unless anyone has something to comment?
I'm now getting moodle.org unavailable error messages this morning...
Cloudflare had a DNS issue about an hour ago but it has been resolved
if you cant get a dns lookup on moodle.org through your ISP, try querying coco.ns.cloudflare.com if that works please contact your ISP
otherwise, rebooting your computer may help flush local dns cache
I got the same unavailable message today at 9:08am Japan time. I happen to be with Michael de Raadt yesterday, who suggested that this is probably the time that backups are done--so unlucky for Japan.
I'm having a seriously bad time with this from multiple locations in the UK. It's getting near unusable. Some times are much worse than others but I can't detect any particular pattern. I'm frequently getting a time out on "Waiting for moodle.org" followed by the CloudFlare message.
With my Moodle Partner hat on, I'm really concerned about the impression this is giving - assuming it's not just me of course.
Jordan - I have found that at least once in the course of reviewing a few plugins that I see the unavailable site notice. Sometimes a refresh works, at other times I just have to wait about 5 minutes or so and then come back and refresh. In any case, it's been a bit of a pain for me. Let me know if you have any suggestions for me or if you need any other information. I just ran host moodle.org and came up with:
host moodle.org
moodle.org has address 188.8.131.52
moodle.org has address 126.96.36.199
moodle.org mail is handled by 100 smtp.easydns.com.
moodle.org mail is handled by 5 mail.moodle.org.
I tend to use tabs a fair amount and open up a few plugins at a time. I'm not sure how CloudFlare works but I just wanted to check and make sure it was not how I was using the site that was causing me to be temporarily blocked from it.
Peace - Anthony
Another small update. This has failed for me on (I think) 3 occasions when I have been posting in a forum. On the first occasion, I refreshed the browser four times before the unavailable message went away and then discovered that the post had been made four times. On subsequent occasions, I did not refresh (went to the home page link) and (when I finally got back in) that the post had been successfully made.
So... it would appear that the connection to moodle.org is only partially failing. Submitting a form works fine but then fails when it attempts to display the page.
I've been looking at the website for CloudFlare Protection which is what we are experiencing with the unavailability of Moodle.org for some, but not all.
What I read there was interesting. The reason that you should use CloudFlare Protection is to protect you from unwarranted attacks by SPAMMERS and BOTS and the like.
CloudFlare leverages the knowledge of a diverse community of websites
to power a new type of security service. Online threats range from nuisances
like comment spam and excessive bot crawling to malicious attacks
like SQL injection and denial of service (DOS) attacks.
CloudFlare provides security protection against all of these types of threats
and more to keep your website safe.
Well, if the amount of SPAM that the forums are getting is a sample of the 'security protection' that CloudFlare offers...then perhaps Moodle.org has been hoodwinked! Seems to me that we were better off on 'Cloud Nine' as we were before...at least we could login anytime, anywhere, anyhow...
2-3 times per day, I get the Cloudflare site unavailable page when I attempt to go to moodle.org. This problem is now a daily routine. Usually it goes away in a minute or so, but is frustrating to me, and gives a poor impression to new users.
CF was deployed to protect us against multiple DDoS we were receiving, not for any antispam measures (although it helps) and in this regard it works very well.
The 'website offline' issue people are seeing is a problem on OUR end relating to timeouts and performance issues and it is being addressed.
Make no mistake, without cloudflare you would see DOUBLE the amount of downtime on moodle.org
additionally, the "me too" posts do not help us in any way, please be patient.
Hi Jordan,
I think my "me-too" post is important because earlier at the MoodleMoot Japan, Michael de Raadt suggested that these timeouts were due to the backing up of the Moodle.org site, usually in the morning time of the Japan time zone. However, I am getting these timeouts at an increasingly rate and at different times of day. So that theory must be incorrect.
....and saying "me too" posts do not help you is not helpful when people are obviously frustrated by this.
However, thanks for the assurance - albeit a little late perhaps - that this is being taken seriously.
Cloudflare site unavailable has been going on since 21:21 -> 21:30 4/4/12 Perth Time (ongoing at time of writing), I'm resolving moodle.org at: 18.104.22.168
Replicated .au .uk and .cz
16:00 UK time - moodle.org unavailable most of the afternoon (since about 13:30 UK time) with cloudfare 'Website is currently Unavailable' message. Seems to me that whatever issues Cloudfare is supposed to be helping to alleviate with moodle.org, it is creating an enormous headache for users not being able to access the site!
@Jordan - I disagree about the importance of the 'me too' messages - how else do you know the extent of the issue being experienced by users. We are all being patient, no-one on here (myself included) is posting to deliberately cause you grief and hassle, but a tracker system is in place to report bugs and this seems to be a fairly significant, ongoing issue that needs reporting when it happens - if only to help you identify/record where and when the problem occurs.
18:15 UK time - now tried from home as well to confirm its not an error with the ip address/network from work - it has previously been suggested that cloudfare was blocking based on ip ranges etc.
Moodle.org still down with cloudfare message as before
12:34 US CST. Same for me now, but I was just in forums yesterday and haven't experienced access problems at all until now. Cleared cache and history. Still get unavailable message.
I thought this was just me, but after getting notification just after DanP put in his first report, I had been trying to get to access Moodle.org Themes forum at the same time. So I've been locked out for approx 6hrs now.
Is this something to do with the magnetic dust caused by solar flares which have been reported on the news recently? They said it will disrupt some communications services in the southern hemisphere, and if this is where Moodle.org have their server it could well be that...couldn't it?
Martians for sure (not Martin followers, but those little-green-guys).
Continues down
Hi all,
Tonight's issue had nothing to do with cloudflare.
The message being presented to all visitors was:
Website currently unavailable
The website you are trying to access is currently unavailable. Please try again at a later time.
If you are the site owner, here is a help resource to help resolve the issue.
This means cloudflare was unable to connect to our server, in this case because we were down.
I was notified of the problem but was unable to connect for some hours to diagnose, after finally gaining access it appears the server ran out of memory and as a result lost network connectivity sporadically, even when it was returning pings it was unable to accept http connections due to the memory issue.
I am still going through the logs to determine the root cause of the problem - moodle.org receives hundreds of hits every minute so looking for anomalies is fairly time consuming, especially when even I am unable to access the server.
I will post a follow up later today, its currently 4am and my immediate goal is to get the server back up and running.
Thank you for your patience.
Thank you very much for all your time and efforts at all hours of the day and night to get this issue sorted out. It is appreciated throughout the community!
Just thought I'd add my 2cnts;
I work from locations in .nl.
The two problems I've been facing over the last few weeks are;
1) Website not available messages showing the cloudfare logo
This happens quite often; I would go as far as to say that about 50% of the time I end up looking at this screen.
('Website Currently Unavailable. The website you are trying to access is currently unavailable. Please try again at a later time. If you are the site owner, review the following resource to help resolve the issue.')
Just now again for example.
2) An access not granted message
It seems the IP address at my place of work has been blacklisted because a computer on the network is suspected of sending out spam.
As a result I at least once a day have to enter cachpta's.
All in all, accessing the Moodle fora has become quite tedious.
But I will persevere !
Jordan - Let me know when we can sit down and troubleshoot what may be happening. My IP address this evening is 22.214.171.124 and several times I have tried to search Moodle plugins, approve a plugin, or other site activity and Cloudflare gets in the way. I do need to find some type of resolution to this as it has seriously hampered my efforts and caused me to be remarkably inefficient. Peace - Anthony
We seriously need to find the underlying problem here and fix it. moodle.org is mission critical.
Note that it seems to be working fine for some people all the time, so I still suspect cloudflare is having issues more than moodle.org itself.
Has it been better for the past week? I increased the cloudflare settings a bit last week.
No different this morning. 'Guest' version comes up quickly but fails when I try to log in. Probably around 30 second delay and then the Cloudflare message.
I have been completely unable to access the site for about three weeks now.
Scotland (UK) if it makes any difference.
On my end, Germany, two totally different internet access points, the issue has been worse this week than before. I'd say that 2 out of 3 attempts to do sth on moodle.org fail, usually at login but the site can stop responding at a different point, also when trying to register a local website. I do not see any correlation to the time of the day. Also, I see the problem only with moodle.org. Docs, tracker, demo sites work just fine.
Another point: I go to Moodle.org by clicking a reply link in email from a forum post. I get stuck with site unavailable after entering login credentials. 10 mins later, I try the link again and the reply page displays directly, which means I was logged in earlier. Another 10 mins later, I try to open http://moodle.org/ in another tab – website not available. 5 mins later, I save the post reply and it works.
I'm now getting the following popup when attempting to access any page on moodle.org (before and after logging in):
A script on this page may be busy, or it may have stopped responding. You can stop the script now, or you can continue to see if the script will complete.
Script: http://ajax.cloudflare.com/cdn-cgi/nexp/v=3368044129/cloudflare.min.js:15
In Ireland, I now see cloudflare logo more often than Moodle site, makes me a sad panda.
Sometimes it is just when viewing a page at all
Trying to log in, nearly never works, or never gets to a logged in page.
Quite happy to help test if needed.
This is very subjective, but it is definitely much worse when logging in and after not using the site for a while.
It can take several attempts to log in. However, once in, I can work on the site (mostly) without interruption. However, if I leave it for a while (say 20 minutes or more) and come back I will get blocked again and may need several attempts to re-access.
Another thing I've noticed. The problem seems to be only on the display part of the page. If I, say, submit a forum reply even if I get blocked the message is posted. I fact on one occasion the message was re-posted each time I refreshed the page (and couldn't get in).
Pre-cloudflare .org was down once in a blue moon. Now it's regular occurrence. I've not been monitoring so no stats to help I'm afraid.
Looks bad.
Me2 I was just thinking how great it has been lately, for me at least, Moodling at all times of the day and night...and now this...the cloud came over and all was darkness!
I hope that when Jesus comes again...it's not on Cloud Flare!
Just noting that it seems the problems last week were caused by a lot of DDoS attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack
Please rest assured that we're doing everything we can to find a solution to the problem.
Just wondering how many people are still getting the cloudflare messages since 10/05/2012 (AWS changeover) ?
Suddenly today my browser (FF 12) gives me this message on every page:
"a script on this page has stopped responding. Click Continue or Stop Script"
and gives the following URL for the errant script:
Gordon please see https://twitter.com/CloudFlareSys/status/210301339744473088 this should have resolved your issue
I'm also getting a "A script on this page may be busy, or it may have stopped responding." message when attempting to view any page on moodle.org.
Seems down again (at least here in the US)
CloudFlare error
Website currently unavailable
The website you are trying to access is currently unavailable. Please try again at a later time.
Hi Eric,
There was an expected issue with our web server last night which resulted in the downtime you saw.
This was fixed around 12:30am and I am still investigating the issue.
To be clear, this was not caused by Cloudflare and does not affect this issue.


text:
(37) Customer Reviews
Price Range: USD $115.99 to $278.99
Light Truck and SUVs
All Season
All Terrain
Falken Tire, well known for its high quality, high performance product, has introduced a new, rugged line of all-terrain tires, the High Country A/T. As the manufacturer of many award-winning tire lines, this new multi-terrain lineup is available in today's most popular sizes for light trucks and sport utilities, ranging from 15-inch to 20-inch rim diameters.The new Falken High Country A/T confidently transitions when surfaces go from smooth to rough and dry to muddy. Deep tread depth, heavy siping and M+S performance enable a bigger bite by the tread blocks as they grab the ground in all types of weather and driving conditions.Offering a more aggressive tread design than most original equipment tires and featuring raised white letters or reversible black letter, the High Country A/T has the performance capabilities and style to provide great daily service on highways, back roads or no roads.
All orders are verified for fitment guarantee.
You'll receive an alert as soon as this item is available for order.
I have 12,000 miles on them and they have 30% tread left; highly unsatisfactory. tread pattern very good in off-road and snow though.
Size: 205/70R16
made this review on 10/3/2015 and is a
Confident, Experienced Driver
At the wear bars and worn quite unevenly at just shy of 25k miles. Of those 25,000 miles, about half was on interstate and about a quarter more on two lane mountain highway. I'm very disappointed in these tires.
I've kept the pressures dead on vehicle spec, checked monthly, and rotated every 5,000 miles until 15,000 when the uneven wear was so pronounced that I decided to just run them where they were because rotation wasn't actually doing anything for me. These tires have about 100 miles of sane and sedate off-pavement travel, and weren't abused at any time. The vehicle is mechanically sound, perfectly aligned, and got new Bilstein shocks right after the first rotation. I haven't towed anything since these tires went on, and have never had more than 500 pounds in the bed.
The Snow rating I've given as a three indicates performance when new. Last winter was nervous even with 300 pounds of dead weight in the bed of the truck.
Size: 265/75R16
Vehicle: 1998 Dodge Ram 1500 2 Dr Extended Cab 7 Ft Bed ST (245/75R16) with 40225 KM of Tire Wear
made this review on 10/31/2014 and is a
Confident, Experienced Driver
To see all 37 reviews on tire reviews page
All orders are verified for fitment guarantee
Verified by tire & wheel expert
We honor the fitment.
If your vehicle information is present on your order, we will verify fitment to qualify you for the 100% Fitment Guarantee. If your order arrives and the tires or wheels do not fit your vehicle, we will honor an exchange and pay for freight for the return and new set.If there are concerns about your order we will contact you about potential fitment issues.
Our Fitment Guarantee applies to orders that come with full vehicle information (Year, Make Model, Sub-Model). If you are confident that the vehicle information is not necessary for your order, we will proceed without checking fitment. However, in the event there is a fitment issue with your order, we will honor a return/exchange, as per our
return / refund policy.
You will be responsible for freight charges (both ways).


text:
Mavis Sturman, 87, of 108 West Walnut Street, Carrier Mills died 11:30 a.m. Saturday Dec. 29, 2012, at her home surrounded by her family.
She was born on May 14, 1925, in Cambell, Mo., to the late Fred and Rosa Belle (Lamunion) Elder. She married William L. Sturman on June 27, 1953, in Corinth, Miss., and he preceded her in death on April 9, 1978.
She was a retired seamstress working at Harrisburg Manufacturing, also known as the cap factory. She also attended Dorrisville Baptist Church.
She is survived by a daughter, Linda Paul, Carrier Mills; son, William (Lois) Sturman, Harrisburg; four grandchildren, Traci (Jeff) Babcock, Mt. Olive, Miranda (Jeff) Cain, Eldorado, Josh Paul and Jake Paul both of Carrier Mills; three great-grandchildren, Dmitri Evans, Daniel Evans and Cooper Cain; two sisters, Norma Lindsay of Carrier Mills, and Novella Keener of Dyer, Ind., and several nieces and nephews.
She was preceded in death by three brothers, Leroy Elder, Hobert Elder and Hershel Elder; and a grandchild, Melissa (Billy) Evans.
Funeral Services will be held 1 p.m. Tuesday Jan. 1, 2013, at Felty Funeral Home in Carrier Mills. Visitation will be held 11 a.m. Tuesday until service time. Burial will be in Sunset Lawn Cemetery in Harrisburg. The Rev. Dewayne Taylor will officiate. Memorials may be made to the Dorrisville Baptist Church Missions fund.
To send a personal condolence you may view the obituary page at the website www.feltyfuneralhome.com.
Location, ST | website.com


text:
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Fine of $1 million for Burns Lake mill blast
WorkSafeBC has assessed penalties totalling more than $1 million against Babine Forest Products for violations of worker safety law and regulations that led to the 2012 explosion and fire at the Burns Lake sawmill.
The decision released Thursday includes an "administrative penalty" of $97,000 for violations and $914,139.62 in a "claims cost levy" based on costs of compensation paid out for injury or death of workers. It was calculated from total payouts by WorkSafeBC of more than $5 million for the incident.
Two mill workers died and 20 others were injured when an explosion and fire tore through the Babine Forest Products sawmill on Jan. 20, 2012. On April 23, 2012 a similar explosion killed two workers and injured 22 more at Lakeland Mills in Prince George.
The explosions have been traced to accumulated dry, fine sawdust generated by cutting dry wood killed by the mountain pine beetle, then ignited by hot equipment. The WorkSafeBC investigation documented inspections and efforts to clean up dust in sawmills before the explosions, and a more intense inspection system has been put in place for mills across the province.
Labour Minister Shirley Bond said the Babine penalty is "probably the largest ever assessed in British Columbia" and rejected suggestions that it was simply to get back some of the money paid out to workers and their families.
"It is done very rarely, and to suggest this is cost recovery is simply wrong," Bond said. "Employers pay premiums with every pay period to actually cover the costs of accidents."
NDP labour critic Harry Baines said he expects the company will exercise its option to appeal.
"These administrative penalties will not do anything to keep workers safe, which is what the victims and their families are now focused on," Baines said.
The Council of Forest Industries has developed its own standard for dust control.


text:
Declaration of War (La guerre est declaree)
After meeting at a party, Romeo and Juliette fall in love, move in together, and have a child, Adam. The young couple, wearily navigating early parenthood, begin to suspect that Adam has a medical problem, a fear that's confirmed when doctors discover a brain tumor. Gathering family and friends, they declare war on his illness, and their storybook romance plunges into an unrelenting world of hospitals, exhaustion, and uncertainty.
Cast: Brigitte Sy, Valérie Donzelli, Jérémie Elkaïm, Gabriel Elkaïm, César Desseix
Produced by:
Directed by: Valérie Donzelli
Written by: Valérie Donzelli, Jérémie Elkaïm
Running time: 1hr 40min
Opens: Jan 20, 2012 Sundance 2012
|Theaters for Today
Pick a day
on this day.


text:
Western Chief Shark Sign Boys Toddler & Youth Rain Boot
Sorry, this item is sold out!
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Everyone has an opinion. Here's your chance to share yours! Be the first to write a review of this product and help your fellow shoppers pick the best of the best.


text:
Got Java (configured correctly)?
By ThinGuy on Aug 06, 2012
Have you ever had firefox crash with the following error when trying to access a Java-based application?
Didn't find JVM under /<path to>/firefox/plugins
Assertion failed: foundJVM, file ../../../../src/plugin/solaris/plugin2/common/JavaVM.c, line 104
Abort (core dumped )
I'm not talking about a sophisticated Java app here. Just hitting the "Do I have Java?" test page on Java.com will crash Firefox and pretty much any Mozilla-based browser left with the default Java configuration.
Here's what the default (and incorrect) Java configuration looks like on pretty much every version of Firefox since 3.5. You can see it by typing about:config in the URL bar, acknowledge the warning, and filter on "java" (click for larger view):
Stating that the default Java configuration is incorrect, really means that it's set to use the old Java plugin and (in most cases) a rather old version of Java. This plugin that is configured by default is incompatible with Firefox 3.5 and beyond. The first generation Java plugin is called javaplugin_oji and cannot be used with any modern version of Firefox.
Unfortunately, even the latest Firefox (14 at the time of this post) comes configured to use the old Java plugin by default.
This means that if you're trying to run a Java-based app on anything greater than Firefox 3.5, you'll wind up with a crashed app and a core file a few seconds after the browser tries to start Java.
If you've been frustrated by not being able to run Oracle Forms-based apps, WebEx, or any other Java-based browser app on Solaris or Oracle Linux, follow the instructions below. If you're an Oracle Forms user, get ready for smoking fast response time sans MS Windows and IE.
Disclaimer: I know neither Solaris or Oracle Linux are supported clients for Oracle Forms-based apps. Doesn't mean it doesn't work. It, in fact, works great! :)
First things first, learn the name and location of the "second generation" Java plugin. The second generation Java plugin is called libnpjp2.so and is located in:
<path to java>/jre/lib/i386/ for x86 based machines
<path to java>/jre/lib/sparc/ for SPARC based machines.
NOTE: The second generation Java plugin was introduced in Java 1.6 update 10. Ensure that you aren't running an older version of Java, if you are upgrade. Solaris 10 U9 ships with 1.4.2_26, so that will need to be updated in order to access Java-based apps with Firefox 3.5 or greater.
TIP: Sun Ray Software and Oracle VDI always ships with a relatively recent Java release. An administrator can symlink these installations to /usr/java. This will ensure that the browser's Java configuration will always be as current as the JRE used with Sun Ray Software or Oracle VDI, even across upgrades of those products.
rm -rf /usr/java
ln -s /etc/opt/SUNWut/jre /usr/java
For a Oracle VDI server:
rm -rf /usr/java
ln -s /opt/SUNWvda/java /usr/java
Note: The remainder of these instructions assume the following three things:
1) Java, greater that 1.6 U10, is installed (or linked to) /usr/java
2) Firefox, greater than 3.5 is installed in /opt/firefox.
3) The platform is x86
If any of those assumptions do not match your environment, just substitute the correct paths to Java, Firefox, and the correct platform (i386 or SPARC) for your environment
Step 1) Configure Firefox plugins directory
1.1) Create plugins sub-directory under /opt/firefox.
The plugins directory doesn't exist by default since about Firefox 6, so you'll have create it. Just create /opt/firefox/plugins and change the permissions so everyone can read/execute the contents:
mkdir /opt/firefox/plugins
chmod -R 755 /opt/firefox/plugins
1.2) Create symlink the new plugin in /opt/firefox/plugins/
Given the location and platform assumptions above, create a symbolic link in /opt/firefox/plugins that points to /usr/java/lib/i386/libnpjp2:
ln -s /usr/java/lib/i386/libnpjp2.so
/<path to>/firefox/plugins/libnpjp2.so
Note: Do not "copy" the library to the plugins directory, this will not work. The plugin is dependent on the relative path of where it resides. This is different than other plugins that you may be used to installing such as Acrobat Reader or Flash.
1.3) Remove any symlinks that point to the old java plugin.
rm /opt/firefox/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so
Note: Some sites may use a personal
plugins directory. If so, be sure to remove any symlinks for
libjavaplugin_oji.so from $HOME/.mozilla/firefox/*.default/plugins
1.4) Test. At this point, accessing the "Do I have Java" test page from java.com will now succeed and tell you are using the second generation plugin, but certain apps, such as Oracle Forms and WebEx, will still fail.
Now that the correct second generation plugin correctly linked to the Firefox plugins directory, it's time to tell Firefox the name of the plugin and the
location of Java.
Step 2) Configure Firefox with the location of Java and the name of plugin
Note: This step needs to be done by each user who has ever ran Firefox with the old Java configuration.
2.1) Open Firefox
2.2) Type "about:config" in the URL bar and acknowledge the "I'll be careful" warning
2.3 ) In the Filter Box, type java and hit return
2.4) Set both
java.default_java_location_others and
java.default_java_location_solaris to:
2.5) Remove/blank out the existing entry under
java.global_java_version_file (as the file referenced there does not exist)
2.6) Set the
java.java_plugin_library_name to
libnpjp2 (or libnpjp2.so, either will work)
2.7) Remove/blank out the existing entry under
java.private_java_version_file (as the file referenced there does not exist)
2.8) Close and re-open firefox. Enter about:config in the url and ensure the settings took place.
The about config screen should now resemble this picture (click for larger image):
2.9) Test out a Java based app, such as WebEx or Oracle E*Business Suite (EBS uses Oracle Forms). The applications should work correctly, and more importantly, firefox should not crash anymore. At least not due to an incorrect Java plugin configuration!
Step 3) Create default Firefox preferences file for new users
This will prevent first time users of Firefox (or those who wanted to create a new profile) from having to perform the actions in Step 2. To do this, the administrator creates (or appends to the contents of) a file called prefs.js under the firefox default profiles directory and fills out these values for all new users.
3.1) Create the default profile directory, if one does not exist under /opt/firefox/defaults/
mkdir /opt/firefox/defaults/profile
chmod -R 755 /opt/firefox/defaults/profile
3.2) Edit /opt/firefox/defaults/profile/prefs.js
The contents of prefs.js for a proper Java plugin configuration would be:
# Mozilla User Preferences
user_pref("java.default_java_location_others", "/usr/java");
user_pref("java.default_java_location_solaris", "/usr/java");
user_pref("java.global_java_version_file", "");
user_pref("java.private_java_version_file", "");
user_pref("java.java_plugin_library_name", "libnpjp2");
That's it. All users should be good to go for running Java-based apps on a modern release of Firefox.


text:
"There is a tendency at every important but difficult crossroad to pretend that it's not really there." -- Bill McKibben
This intimate gathering with Bill McKibben will explore the difficult choices that humanity faces in the face of dramatic climate change. The outspoken author, scholar, and founder of 350.org will talk about his untiring commitment to promote widespread political action.
Ethics Matter is a monthly series of town hall events with notable policy and academic experts. The events will be taped and distributed for broadcast on television stations across the country. A networking reception will follow the taping.
RSVP is required and seating is limited. The reservation deadline is Friday, October 5, 2012. Due to the studio recording, latecomers may not be admitted. Suggested Donation: $10.
Speaker: Bill McKibben
Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs
Merrill House
170 East 64th Street
New York, NY 10065-7478
(212) 838-4120
(212) 752-2432 - Fax
Map: Click Here (opens a new window)
ContactTo RSVP, please email the address below.
Click here for Live Webcast
Email a question before the event: firstname.lastname@example.com.


text:
How to see Casco Viejo
When Henry Morgan and his pirates raided Panama Viejo (Old Panama)in 1671, a new town was built in what is now referred to as 'Casco Antiguo' or 'Casco Viejo'. As you stroll down the narrow streets of Panama's colonial quarters you will encounter historic churches, beautiful plazas and plenty of restaurants.
At only a 5 minute drive from the Balboa Inn, the "Casco Viejo" is site you don't want to miss. The best way to experience the Casco Antiguo/Viejo is through a guided tour. The local Casco Antiguo Office [OCA] offers free guided tours on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. The tours are usually with local bilingual students and can last from 2-3 hours. Your guide will explain to you the history of the Casco Viejo and it's different sites thus providing you with a full experience of the area. In order to arrange a tour you can call the OCA office or ask one of our staff to arrange it. Be sure to ask for a bilingual guide.
If you can't make the guided tour ask one of our staff for our map of Casco Viejo, it has all the main sites marked and we also try to stay up to date on any events going on in the area so don't hesitate to ask.


text:
Singapore Resorts Hotel Map
Le Méridien Singapore, SentosaPhotos
Le Méridien Singapore, Sentosa23 Beach ViewSentosaSingapore, Singapore (65) 6818 3388
SPG Category 5
W Singapore - Sentosa CovePhotos
W Singapore - Sentosa Cove21 Ocean WaySingapore, Singapore (65) 6808 7288
SPG Category 6
- Road
- Aerial
- Bird's Eye
The information detailed on these pages is subject to change. No representation is made and no warranty given as to the validity of the content, including road conditions, route usability and expeditiousness. The user assumes all risk of use. Microsoft, Starwood Hotels and Resorts, Inc., and their suppliers assume no responsibility for any loss or delay resulting from such use.


text:
Posts: 5826
Registered: 10-12
Eris Falling said:
Well, since I need evidence of map development before the end of this month, as was discussed at the demise of the old thread, I thought that sending out PM's about this would be a good idea.
Ribbiks has said he can not finish MAP20, the slot is open
Posts: 4428
Registered: 07-12
joe-ilya said:
can i do it?
Eris Falling said:
Sure, I'll mark you down.
joe-ilya said:
can i use zdoom (doom in hexen format)?
i must use boom?
Posts: 1795
Registered: 09-07
Antroid said:
/\/\/\/\/\ Darn you Eris, my reply is fancier.
Posts: 1555
Registered: 04-10
MajorRawne said:
Is map 6 still going? Had Purist started work on something and wanting someone else to complete it? I might be interested, I've got into doing classic-style maps.
Posts: 2699
Registered: 04-04
Posts: 477
Registered: 06-12
Posts: 1081
Registered: 09-11
ComicMischief said:
I'm afraid I'll have to duck out, leaving MAP30 open. I look to be inundated with work over the coming months. Sorry!
Posts: 1075
Registered: 07-00
Posts: 2750
Registered: 07-11
cannonball said:
I would be very interested to see what you have done for this map up to this point, maybe we could continue your idea and extend your map rather than scrap it and someone start afresh. I wouldn't mind continuing on with it and i'm sure others would feel the same.
@Glenzinho thanks :)
Last edited by cannonball on Dec 8 2012 at 13:17
cannonball said:
I was thinking more a group effort, say me, you and antroid (as he is doing the previous 2 levels it seems kind of apt to include him if he wants to), I can't remember comicmischief's idea too well but it was something to do with the 7 deadly sins and hence at least 7 sections of the map to do, so it's going to be pretty big and hence I thought a group effort would be less stressful than doing doing it alone :)
Posts: 1497
Registered: 12-03
A shell, an imp.
ducon said:
Why 7 and 3? You can draw a regular heptanogal star.
cannonball said:
lets just see whether we get the unfinished map, we don't know how far comicmischief got so no idea how much work would be left to do. If we don't get the map, then it's start afresh with perhaps a new idea for the level but with the same plan of progression. If this does occur then it would make sense for antroid to do the start section of the map.
Of course all of this is subjective to other peoples opinions on the matter.
code:Luxuria (lust) // Interesting to see how this would be done in DOOM
Gula (gluttony) // Not clue.
Avaritia (greed) // I think CM said the player would regain his weapons here.
Acedia (sloth) // Laziness, but I don't think a half-assed piece of map is what anyone has in mind
Ira (wrath) // Probably put the boss in here
Invidia (envy) // Unreachable items?
Superbia (pride) // Not a clue.
Building the Tower of Babel was, for Dante, an example of pride.
Posts: 116
Registered: 09-12
Joseph Lord said:
i would like to contribute with map30, the idea to finish it in grup is great, but my first work is map23 so here it is, the first version of the map. i wish that it not have problems
i hope u like guys, have fun
Last edited by cannonball on Dec 8 2012 at 14:55
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