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Skip to comments.Survivors detail Suharto-era massacres
Posted on 01/27/2008 3:11:35 PM PST by NormsRevenge
BLITAR, Indonesia - Hiding out in the dense, humid jungle, Markus Talam watched Indonesian soldiers herd manacled prisoners from trucks, line them up and mow them down with round after round of automatic weapons fire.
It was 1968, and the killings were part of a final offensive by forces under Gen. Suharto to wipe out the communist party and secure his position as leader of Indonesia, now the world's most populous Muslim nation.
"They gunned them down and dumped their bodies in a mass grave dug by other prisoners. I remember the sound of the guns clearly: tat-tat, tat-tat, tat-tat ... over and over again," said Talam, 68, who was later jailed for 10 years after being named a leftist sympathizer.
Suharto, who died on Sunday at a Jakarta hospital, seized control of the military in 1965 and ruled the country for 32 years, suppressing dissent with force and supported by an American government at the height of the Cold War.
Estimates for the number killed during his bloody rise to power from 1965 to 1968 range from a government figure of 78,000 to 1 million cited by U.S. historians Barbara Harff and Ted Robert Gurr, who have published books on Indonesia's history. It was the worst mass slaughter in Southeast Asia's modern history after the Khmer Rouge killing fields in Cambodia.
A frenzy of anti-communist violence stained rivers with blood and littered the countryside with the bodies of teachers, farmers and others.
"They used to dump the bodies here," recalled Surien, a 70-year-old woman who lived near a bay used as an execution ground. "People called it the beach of stinking corpses because of the smell."
The CIA provided lists of thousands of leftists, including trade union members, intellectuals and schoolteachers, many of whom were executed or sent to remote prisons.
Another 183,000 died due to killings, disappearances, hunger and illness during Indonesia's 1975-1999 occupation of East Timor, according to an East Timorese commission sanctioned by the U.N. Similar abuses left more than 100,000 dead in West Papua, according a local human rights group. Another 15,000 died during a 29-year separatist rebellion in Aceh province.
In recent interviews around the city of Blitar, a former communist stronghold, survivors of the atrocities recounted a life on the run, living in caves, being beaten and beheadings of other captives.a
"I am disappointed. I saw great cruelties and am lucky I am not dead," said Talam, whose simple two-room home overlooks a valley dotted with overgrown mass graves.
Dragging on a clove-cigarette with trembling hands, he described how he was detained by police but escaped. He stumbled across dead bodies in shallow graves and slept in dank caves with hundreds of others, eating what the jungle had to offer for 50 days, until being picked up.
Talam, a former member of a left-wing union for park rangers, said he was tortured and beaten repeatedly during interrogations while detained on remote Buru island, where about 12,000 political prisoners were held, 1,100 miles east of the capital, Jakarta. "Why has no one been put on trial?" he asked.
In fact, the dark era remains largely unknown to many Indonesians. Those believed responsible still wield influence in politics and the courts. Details of the communist purge are banned from school books, and the military has blocked efforts by relatives to unearth mass graves.
Near Blitar, a prominent monument and museum honors the crushing of the communist threat, and the Communist Party is still banned in Indonesia today.
There is no official record of the shootings Talam said he witnessed by the Indonesian army near Blitar, which lies 310 miles east of Jakarta.
Though Suharto was swept from power in a 1998 pro-democracy uprising in this nation of 235 million people, no one has ever been tried for the bloodletting, in part because some of Suharto's former generals remain in powerful posts today.
"One of the enduring legacies of Suharto's regime has been the culture of impunity," said Brad Adams, the head of Human Rights Watch Asia.
Moreover, public interest in reviving a turbulent past is muted in the largely poor country, where people are more concerned with day-to-day survival, said Putmuinah, an 80-year-old former communist city council member in Blitar.
"The ones who should be held accountable for those crimes are Suharto, his government and his regime," she said. "Suharto ordered the elimination of communists and left-wing sympathizers."
Putmuinah hid in a cave south of Blitar before being picked up and detained for 10 years. "They robbed me of the opportunity to raise my seven children," she said.
"They beheaded many of us because we were members of the union for women," she added. "I was spared torture because I knew the commander who arrested me."
Suharto's regime capitalized on existing tensions between Muslims and atheist communists, inciting the nation's powerful Islamic groups to join the purge.
Hasyim Asyhari, 67, a former member of a conservative Sunni Islamic youth group in the Blitar region, said the group received army orders to identify, hunt down and kill communists.
He said he is proud of saving the nation from communist domination and helping "turn communist sympathizers into good Muslims."
"We used farm tools, daggers and clubs" to kill prisoners, Asyhari said in an interview. "I followed the orders of the government."
This was the setting for "The Year of Living Dangerously," starring Mel Gibson and Sigourney Weaver.
Soeharto came to power when the country was in a mess, partly because of the communists influence during the time of his predecessor, Soekarno. Unlike Polpot or Hitler, I don't think Soeharto mastermind all the killing of the communists in 1960s, although for sure he didn't prevent it from happening.
And how many MORE would have died if Indonesia was under communist control? Those numbers pale with the 1/3 of the total population of Cambodia that was killed under Pol Pot's communist regime or under Stalin's iron control...
Curious as to how the article shows the muslims and communists in a good light but the CIA as bad.
In a way, the actions against the communists in Indoneasia mirrors what went on in Chile and several other nations and the US's reaction to it. While massacering innocent unarmed civilians is inherrently wrong, there was a Cold War going on. If the communists in these countries had been unimpeded, they probably would have ensured equal if not worse tragedies to say nothing of the end result of the Cold War.
I've been asking myself a question since reading this article...
What is so horribly wrong with that was done? There is no peaceful coexistence with communists. They make the fight a true either/or.
The only real options available when confronted with an implacable enemy is to kill them or submit to them. Jailing them doesn't do squat. You've got to release them sometime, and even if jailed for the rest of their lives, they end up as indoctrinators of their fellow inmates and inspiration to those still unjailed.
What other options are there when opposed by an openly hostile ideology that demands your culture's obliteration and replacement?
The biggest problem here is that Suharto didn't do these things to defend liberty and democracy.
All his people suffered while he prospered
ET? AP does not mention it because the US didn't care. Duh.
On 4 or 5 December, while still in Beijing, Kissinger received a cable from the State Department suggesting that the Indonesians had "plans" to invade East Timor.(25) Thus, Ford or Kissinger could not have been too surprised when, in the middle of a discussion of guerrilla movements in Thailand and Malaysia, Suharto suddenly brought up East Timor. Suharto noted that while Indonesia has no territorial ambitions, Fretilin has not cooperated with negotiations and has declared its independence unilaterally. The current situation, he said, will prolong the suffering of the refugees and increase instability in the area. Suharto then assured the Americans that the four other parties favor integration, with the apparent implication that a mere majority among the parties to the conflictabsent a popular referendumalone constituted an act of self-determination. We want your understanding, Suharto continued, if we deem it necessary to take rapid or drastic action.
Ford and Kissinger took great pains to assure Suharto that they would not oppose the invasion. Ford was unambiguous: We will understand and will not press you on the issue. We understand the problem and the intentions you have. Kissinger did indeed stress that the use of US-made arms could create problems, but then added that, It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self defense or is a foreign operation. Thus, Kissingers concern was not about whether U.S. arms would be used offensivelyand hence illegallybut whether the act would actually be interpreted as sucha process he clearly intended to manipulate.(26) In any case, Kissinger added: It is important that whatever you do succeeds quickly.
Indeed, timing and damage control were very important to the Americans, as Kissinger told Suharto: We would be able to influence the reaction in America if whatever happens happens after we return. . . If you have made plans, we will do our best to keep everyone quiet until the President returns home. Kissinger also asked Suharto if he anticipated a long guerilla war, apparently aware that a quick military success would be easier to spin than a long campaign. Suharto acknowledged that there "will probably be a small guerilla war" but he was cagey enough not to predict its duration. Nevertheless, his military colleagues were optimistic; as one of the architects of Indonesian policy, General Ali Murtopo explained to a U.S. scholar some months before the invasion, "the whole business will be settled in three weeks."(27)
"It just calls them East Timorese. The AP never told us that when the Muslims were killing the Catholics. And, they dont tell us now."
Sorry I don't buy that. Everyone knows that Islam is the Religion of Peace.
I am not defending Suharto's human rights record but I AM questioning the bias of the article. Just about every communist government killed a large amount of their citizens to maintain control. In fact, I don't think I ever heard of ANY communist government that respected human rights... Have you?
I just dont want to call this guy as a saint.
In light of what the communists have done in other lands, Suharto made a choice - them or us. He did what he had to do. Trying to accommodate the communists would never have worked.
The nature of the Communist war led ultimately to the "dirty wars" of South America and the Indonesian iteration of the war was the same but at Asian levels of mechanical savagery. In a less than modern country the communists had to be rooted out totally or they would prevail and slaughter their own enemies and perceived enemies.
The Indonesian events of 1968 were a significant reason that the Dominoes of 1975 did not fall beyond Indochina. It does not surprise me that the CIA might have been involved. America was the principle stronghold of resistance to Communism and the one country seriously opposing the Soviets.
It began as a purge of Communists and turned into an ethnic cleansing of Overseas Chinese. The Communists were mostly Chinese. Sukarno had used the Communists to hold power and would have ultimately lost Indonesia to them if he had continued to rule. Indonesia in 1968 was very much part of the Viet Nam War.
It is probably pretty accurate but from the viewpoint of the Communists-as-victims. It went down the way things go down in Asia. Methods and outlook have not changed much since Attila. The Human Wave attack in Korea were the Huns or the Mongols with rifles.
That's true. In 1968, Indonesia's population was over a hundred million. A Pol Pot or Ho Chi Minh-style 'remaking' of the society would have cost-at an absolute minimum-ten times the figure of one million that is frequently cited.
And that figure, to me, is very suspect. Remember how for years the figure of 15,000 dead was given for Pinochet's takeover? Only after his regime left power was the true figure available-around 3,300 for his entire 16 years of rule. Most were killed in the first three weeks, and many were hardly the starry-eyed idealists portrayed by the left. Chile's army fought pitched battles against marxist militias in the streets of Santiago.
Hopefully, a full airing will one day be given for Indonesia's dark year.
We called it a Cold War but it was quite hot in many places. In reporting it things were all compartmentalized and it was made to appear as different local actions, but it was all the same war, from Argentina to Ethiopia to Indonesia and Vietnam.
Indonesia as a whole propspered under Soeharto, especially when you compared it with Soekarno's period. Yes, he and his family prospered more than others.
Don't forget Korea on that list of hot cold warism.
and Mozambique and Angola and Peru and China and Quemoy and Burma and Algeria and... and... and...
"Another 186,xxx died due to killings." Makes sense.
Their is no doubt that the communists in Indonesia were backed by Russian and China. Killing off the communists and back Soeharto gave Indonesia a whole new direction and opened it to US and the west and drove out the Soviets.
This was part of the containment and reversal strategy in Asia.
I started working with Indonesian business's in 1971 while based in Asia and helped to organize and develop one of the biggest private companies there. That company now has hundreds of "middle class" employees.
and... and... and...
For a Cold War, it had a lot of hot fronts.
The sad thing that is overlooked in the discussion of Suharto is how his victory over Indonesian Communism rendered the whole Vietnam war so goddammed unnecessary.
The 'Domino Theory' was based on the assumption that if Vietnam fell then so would Thailand and Malaysia and then the Communists would get what they really wanted; Indonesia. Indonesia was the target of the Japanese in the Second World War and it was the target for the Communists. With its vast reserves of oil, rubber, tin, copper, bauxite, gold etc it was the jewel in the crown.
In 1965 Indonesia had the third largest Communists party in the world and they looked set to take over the country from the shambolic rule of Sukarno. But then Suharto handed their asses to them on a plate and in three months without using a single US soldier he wiped out the Communists and utterly destroyed them. After that Indonesia was firmly anchored in the western sphere of influence.
With Indonesia secure, and Malaysia and Singapore likewise under the Brits and Australia in the south and an American supported Philippines there was no need to worry about Indo-China, if they fell to Communism it would be no great loss to the world, as indeed happened but instead 55,000 young Americans were to die in a pointless war and America was to suffer a defeat from which it has still not fully recovered.
The one strategic benefit of the Vietnam War was sucking the USSR into Afghanistan. That was the Big Domino.
Indonesia's dark year shut the lights off for the USSR and China in Indonesia.
Indonesia was, indeed, the prize for that whole part of the world. Control of Indonesia would have given the Communists control of the major part of world sea traffic including oil transport, as well as another large source of oil.
You are comparing apples to oranges here. Nobody on this board would say Suharto was a "saint."
The truth was Suharto used brutal methods to eradicate the communists threat.
The only other option for the people would be total capitulation to the communists. Then we would be talking about this thirty some years later about how MILLIONS of people died...
Ethic Chinese disguise their roots with weird names like Soeryadjaya to blend in with their dangerous hosts.
Economics was a major part of it. Politics played its part, too. The Communists tried to organize a coup and the reaction did not stop with the dead and captured actors. It was an excuse to capture the Chinese money and eliminate them from positions of power and influence, social as well as political. Henry VIII's move against the Catholic Mmonasteries and Catholics generally came from the same desires. The Catholics controlled much of the wealth in Britain and Henry was broke. That move also served to detach Britain from the Continent. Suharto detached Indonesia from the Communist enterprise while getting control the resources. There is not much new under the Sun.
All his people suffered while he prospered
Which leads to the question, what were the conditions that recruited people to the communists?
Oh they were worse. much worse.
No doubt about it.
The Indonesian communists were worse than Suharto, I presume you mean. How so? Did they kill as many as Suharto did?
But back to my question, what were the conditions that made the Communists attractive to so many poor Indonesians?
I mean the conditions were bad under Sukarno.
That lead to the popularism of communism.
Suharto didn't really alleviate the oppression he just rounded up the rabble rousers and killed them.
Megawati Sukarnoputri finally brought some democracy to the place, though there are so many poor with no opportunity's there it is staggering.
You might want to ask yourself what still makes communism so attractive to so many mindless idiots here in the US.
Rational reasoning is not always required or even desired. Fairy tales and make believe are a huge portion of the communist pipe dream. That, and appealing directly to the most base and destructive hatred of envy that can reside in men's souls.
Of course, among the elites of the world, there's ever only been two options since the fall of the aristocracy.
Everything must either be fascism or communism. The uniquely evil American thing is never even considered as a possibility.
"I mean the conditions were bad under Sukarno."
I think of Sukarno as being a Robert Mugabe type leader, a man who fought for his people's independence but who then went on to bankrupt his country in pursuit of his own egomania.
Or you can find and eliminate the factor which makes them your implacable enemy.
The radical element is supported by Saudi oil money. We started really having problems with them once Saudi money started funding radical madrassahs and radical imams. The radical mosques would dry up and blow away if they had to get their funding from people who needed to actually work for a living
I think the communists also frequently exploit real injustices. For example, in South Vietnam, the US kept urging the government there to implement land reform, also a communist cause.
In Indonesia during Suharto's time, I wonder what injustices, like feudal land arrangements perhaps, the communists exploited.
It was actually 'land reform' (as I recall many liberals called Ho Chi Minh an "agricultural reformist", so much nicer than "Communist" don't you think?) that caused the problems for the Communists in the first place.
Thinking they were on the verge of victory under Sukarno's rule they started "actions" in the villages, seizing the lands belonging to "landlords" or "capitalists", in effect anyone with a half decent landholding saw their property being stolen by cadres sent down from Jakarta. Very quickly people began to resist the Communists, by 1965 there were extensive networks of anti-Communist resistance fighting the land grabs by the Reds.
Following the abortive coup of September 1965 the Army under Suharto was able to mobilise these anti-Communist forces and the Communists were utterly routed.
It was not the army but local people who exterminated the Communists, local people very unhappy about having their land stolen by political apparatchiks.
I think "up to a million" is pretty damned bad. If that's the best you can do.....
FWIW, I had a friend in college who is Indonesian of Chinese descent. He remembers being hidden under the floorboards of his house several times, when his parents thought Suharto's thugs were coming.
They were lucky enough to be quite wealthy, and survived because they lived in a walled compound, and had a well-armed private army to protect them.
A hell of a lot of other folks weren't so lucky. They weren't communists, but they were Chinese.
Same as always ... horrible exploitation by rich landowners, and vast political corruption, and violence used to keep the uppity ones down. We all know that Communism relies on lies and oppression, but flourishes because communists aren't the first in the area to use lies, corruption, and oppression.
Communism works because it exploits legitimate grievances. That's why it's popular in the poorer areas of Mexico, for example.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but why was Suharto targeting the ethnic Chinese? Were they grouped with the Communists?
Communism was a convenient excuse -- the real issues appear to be more class- and ethnically-based. There's a lot of backstory, including racial tensions and Indonesia's colonial history.
Wiki offers the following discussion on Chinese Indonesians. As always, there were a lot of reasons, not least of which was that the Chinese were fairly dominant in the Indonesian economy.
Yeah, that'd work. Like it takes so many millions of petro dollars to wire up a suicide jacket.
It's the ideology that breeds the malcontents. Life is always about dealing with injustice. There will never be a fully and completely just and equal society or culture or community.
Only those living on their knees with their sucks grafted to the propaganda spigot of the socialist utopianists swallow that kind of silliness.
The Chinese did suffer disproportionately under the anti-Communist purges but unfortunately they were disproportionately represented in the Communist party, as they were in Malaya a decade earlier. It was very foolish for such an industrious hardworking people to get invoved with such an ideology but perhaps they thought in a Communist society aligned with China they might get a fairer deal. Sad that as usual they became the scapegoats for legitimate anger as they were in 1998, the Chinese are the Jews of SE Asia. I am glad to say their position is much better nowadays and hopefully that will continue.
It wasn't only the Chinese who were victims however, by the time Suharto came to power there was a nascent multi-sided civil war already raging in central and east Java and in Bali. Chinese, Balinese, Madurese, Javanese, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, rural, urban, Communist, Islamist etc they were all at each other's throats due to Sukarno's misrule.
Suharto and the Army exploited this chaos and united the disparate groups to fight the Communists, it was an awful time but once order was restored Indonesia had a much more peaceful and prosperous future compared to the nightmare a Communist takeover would have been.
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Skip to comments.Cloud ships on course to beat climate change, says Copenhagen study [fleet of 1,900 ships...]
Posted on 08/06/2009 5:02:35 PM PDT by Sub-Driver
Cloud ships on course to beat climate change, says Copenhagen study
It is hoped that the clouds produced by the "cloud ships" could cancel out the greenhouse effect Ben Webster, Environment Editor, and Hannah Devlin
They sound like ideas from a Jules Verne novel, but giant engineering schemes designed to alter the climate offer the cheapest way of avoiding catastrophic global warming, according to a growing number of scientists and green-minded entrepreneurs.
Most of the schemes have been dismissed as impossibly expensive or impractical, such as the proposal to create a space sunshade by using rockets to deploy millions of mirrors in the stratosphere.
One relatively cheap solution, however, is gaining favour among many different groups and is endorsed today by an independent study that compares the costs and benefits of all the main ideas. A wind-powered fleet of 1,900 ships would criss-cross the oceans, sucking up sea water and spraying it from the top of tall funnels to create vast white clouds.
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The idea has been circulating for a decade but until now has merely been one of many climate engineering pipedreams. A study commissioned by the Copenhagen Consensus Centre, a think-tank that advises governments on how to spend aid money, found that the fleet would cost $9 billion (£5.3 billion) to test and launch within 25 years.
(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...
Everyone knows that unicorns eat CO2 and fart pure oxygen. Why don't they just raise more unicorns??
Living life in an echo chamber really does yield some idiotic results. This plays well as a Monty Python skit.
On the contrary, I think this is great. I'll gladly support this as an alternative to the carbon police and government-enforced privation. Spray away.
There are ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self- sufficient tropical areas parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.
The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has risen by a fraction of a degree a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.
To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world's weather. The central fact is that after three quarters of a century of extraordinarily mild conditions, the earth's climate seems to be cooling down. Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the cooling trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic.
"A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale," warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences, "because the global patterns of food production and population that have evolved are implicitly dependent on the climate of the present century."
A survey completed last year by Dr. Murray Mitchell of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reveals a drop of half a degree in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968. According to George Kukla of Columbia University, satellite photos indicated a sudden, large increase in Northern Hemisphere snow cover in the winter of 1971-72. And a study released last month by two NOAA scientists notes that the amount of sunshine reaching the ground in the continental U.S. diminished by 1.3% between 1964 and 1972.
To the layman, the relatively small changes in temperature and sunshine can be highly misleading. Reid Bryson of the University of Wisconsin points out that the Earth's average temperature during the great Ice Ages was only about seven degrees lower than during its warmest eras and that the present decline has taken the planet about a sixth of the way toward the Ice Age average. Others regard the cooling as a reversion to the "little ice age" conditions that brought bitter winters to much of Europe and northern America between 1600 and 1900 years when the Thames used to freeze so solidly that Londoners roasted oxen on the ice and when iceboats sailed the Hudson River almost as far south as New York City.
Just what causes the onset of major and minor ice ages remains a mystery. "Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data," concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. "Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions."
Meteorologists think that they can forecast the short-term results of the return to the norm of the last century. They begin by noting the slight drop in overall temperature that produces large numbers of pressure centers in the upper atmosphere. These break up the smooth flow of westerly winds over temperate areas. The stagnant air produced in this way causes an increase in extremes of local weather such as droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long freezes, delayed monsoons and even local temperature increases all of which have a direct impact on food supplies.
"The world's food-producing system," warns Dr. James D. McQuigg of NOAA's Center for Climatic and Environmental Assessment, "is much more sensitive to the weather variable than it was even five years ago." Furthermore, the growth of world population and creation of new national boundaries make it impossible for starving peoples to migrate from their devastated fields, as they did during past famines.
Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects. They concede that some of the more spectacular solutions proposed, such as melting the Arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers, might create problems far greater than those they solve. But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies. The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality.
The Cooling World:
Original Newsweek article with scary maps and graphs:
[. . . the fleet would cost $9 billion (£5.3 billion) to test and launch within 25 years. This is a fraction of the $250 billion that the worlds leading nations are considering spending each year to cut CO2 emissions.]
If it's a choice between these "cloud ships" and Cap-and-Trade, I vote for the S.S. Rube Goldberg.
Saudi Arabia could fund this with an oil profit rounding error. And they could use the resulting freshwater.
Ooo, ooo, I know, I know....launch a nuke, they cause "global winters" right??? Seems the perfect solution...sounds as reasonable as this idiodic poop!
Well if you believe contrary to observation that the earth is warming, not due to the Sun, but to greenhouse gases. Why would you want to create machines on a massive scale that emit a compound with some of the most potent heat retaining characteristics known to man? Water vapor holds heat. That's why virtually all of the power generated by humans are basically from large water heaters.
Idiots trying to play "God" will destroy us.
I guess no one told them that global warming stopped about a decade ago, according to whom you ask, and that the last two years cooling brought us back to the temperature as it was in 1980. Oblivious idiots!
Sucking up huge amounts of sea water pushing it up tall funnels by wind power only ???
Alex, I'd take things not possible for 400 please
Unicorns often being referred to by their secular name, aka "TREES".
Clouds are liquid water droplets that reflect all wavelengths of light including infrared. They have very different properties than invisible water vapor.
Thick, low lying cumulus clouds block sunlight. High, thin stratus clouds tend to trap heat.
The following which I pieced together, describes a possible connection between the sunspot/solar activity cycle and climate.
If you look at the chart below, you will see that sunspot activity (during solar maxes--the individual peaks every apprx 11 yrs) has been relatively high since about 1900 and almost non-existent for the period between about 1625 and 1725. This period is known as the Maunder (sunspot) Minimum or "Little Ice Age".-etl
From BBC News [yr: 2004]:
"A new [2004] analysis shows that the Sun is more active now than it has been at anytime in the previous 1,000 years. Scientists based at the Institute for Astronomy in Zurich used ice cores from Greenland to construct a picture of our star's activity in the past. They say that over the last century the number of sunspots rose at the same time that the Earth's climate became steadily warmer."..."In particular, it has been noted that between about 1645 and 1715, few sunspots were seen on the Sun's surface.
This period is called the Maunder Minimum after the English astronomer who studied it. It coincided with a spell of prolonged cold weather often referred to as the "Little Ice Age". Solar scientists strongly suspect there is a link between the two events - but the exact mechanism remains elusive."
It's really hard to imagine how this little ball of fire could have any impact on our climate at all. /s
But the main arguments being made for a solar-climate connection is not so much to do with the heat of the Sun (the sun isn't necessarily getting warmer) but rather with its magnetic cycles. When the Sun is more magnetically active (typically around the peak of the 11-year sunspot cycle --we are a few yrs away at the moment), the Sun's magnetic field is better able to deflect away incoming galactic cosmic rays (highly energetic charged particles coming from outside the solar system). The GCRs are thought to help in the formation of low-level cumulus clouds -the type of clouds that BLOCK sunlight and help cool the Earth. So when the Sun's MF is acting up (not like now -the next sunspot max is expected in about 2013, according to the latest predictions), less GCRs reach the Earth's atmosphere, less low level, sunlight-blocking clouds form, and more sunlight gets through to warm the Earth's surface...naturally. Clouds are basically made up of tiny water droplets. When minute particles in the atmosphere become ionized by incoming GCRs they become very 'attractive' to water molecules, in a purely chemical sense of the word. The process by which the Sun's increased magnetic field deflects incoming cosmic rays is very similar to the way magnetic fields steer electrons in a cathode ray tube (old-time television tube) or electrons and other charged particles around the ring of a subatomic particle accelerator.-etl
From 2008...
The Center for Sun-Climate Research at the DNSC (Danish National Space Center) investigates the connection between variations in the intensity of cosmic rays and climatic changes on Earth. This field of research has been given the name 'cosmoclimatology'"..."Cosmic ray intensities and therefore cloudiness keep changing because the Sun's magnetic field varies in its ability to repel cosmic rays coming from the Galaxy, before they can reach the Earth." :
From a well-referenced wikipedia.com column (see wiki link for ref 14):
"Sunspot numbersover the past 11,400 years have been reconstructed using dendrochronologically dated radiocarbon concentrations. The level of solar activity during the past 70 years is exceptional the last period of similar magnitude occurred over 8,000 years ago. The Sun was at a similarly high level of magnetic activity for only ~10% of the past 11,400 years, and almost all of the earlier high-activity periods were shorter than the present episode.[14]"
[14] ^Solanki, Sami K.; Usoskin, Ilya G.; Kromer, Bernd; Schüssler, Manfred & Beer, Jürg (2004), Unusual activity of the Sun during recent decades compared to the previous 11,000 years, Nature 431: 10841087, doi:10.1038/nature02995, . Retrieved on 17 April 2007 , "11,000 Year Sunspot Number Reconstruction". Global Change Master Directory. Retrieved on 2005-03-11.
"Reconstruction of solar activity over 11,400 years. Period of equally high activity over 8,000 years ago marked.
Present period is on [the right]. Values since 1900 not shown."
From NASA's Solar and Heliospheric Observatory's "Not So Frequently Asked Questions" section:
Q-Does the number of sunspots have any effect on the climate here on Earth?
A-Sunspots are slightly cooler areas on the surface of the Sun, due to the intense magnetic fields, so they radiate a little less energy than the surroundings. However, there are usually nearby areas associated with the sunspots that are a little hotter (called falculae), and they more than compensate. The result is that there is a little bit more radiation coming from the Sun when it has more sunspots, but the effect is so small that it has very little impact on the weather and climate on Earth.
However, there are more important indirect effects: sunspots are associated with what we call "active regions", with large magnetic structures containing very hot material (being held in place by the magnetism). This causes more ultraviolet (or UV) radiation (the rays that give you a suntan or sunburn), and extreme ultraviolet radiation (EUV). These types of radiation have an impact on the chemistry of the upper atmosphere (e.g. producing ozone). Since some of these products act as greenhouse gases, the number of sunspots (through association with active regions) may influence the climate in this way.
Many active regions produce giant outflows of material that are called Coronal Mass Ejections. These ejections drag with them some of the more intense magnetic fields that are found in the active regions. The magnetic fields act as a shield for high-energy particles coming from various sources in our galaxy (outside the solar system). These "cosmic rays" (CRs) cause ionization of molecules in the atmosphere, and thereby can cause clouds to form (because the ionized molecules or dust particle can act as "seeds" for drop formation).
If clouds are formed very high in the atmosphere, the net result is a heating of the Earth - it acts as a "blanket" that keeps warmth in.
If clouds are formed lower down in the atmosphere, they reflect sunlight better than they keep heat inside, so the net result is cooling. Which processes are dominant is still a matter of research.
NASA graph of sunspot activity over the past 400 years [note the profound lack of sunspot activity during the "Little Ice Age" period (apprx 1650-1720), AND the sharp INCREASE particularly during the past 60 years:
100,000-Year Climate Pattern Linked To Sun's Magnetic Cycles:
ScienceDaily (Jun. 7, 2002) HANOVER, N.H.
Thanks to new calculations by a Dartmouth geochemist, scientists are now looking at the earth's climate history in a new light. Mukul Sharma, Assistant Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth, examined existing sets of geophysical data and noticed something remarkable: the sun's magnetic activity is varying in 100,000-year cycles, a much longer time span than previously thought, and this solar activity, in turn, may likely cause the 100,000-year climate cycles on earth. This research helps scientists understand past climate trends and prepare for future ones.
Water from the sea, creating white clouds.... wait a minute.. the water cycle happens naturally all by itself!
This is stupid. This already happens in nature. Its called evaporation
From NASA's Solar and Heliospheric Observatory's "Not So Frequently Asked Questions" section:
Many active regions produce giant outflows of material that are called Coronal Mass Ejections. These ejections drag with them some of the more intense magnetic fields that are found in the active regions. The magnetic fields act as a shield for high-energy particles coming from various sources in our galaxy (outside the solar system). These "cosmic rays" (CRs) cause ionization of molecules in the atmosphere, and thereby can cause clouds to form (because the ionized molecules or dust particle can act as "seeds" for drop formation).
If clouds are formed very high in the atmosphere, the net result is a heating of the Earth - it acts as a "blanket" that keeps warmth in.
If clouds are formed lower down in the atmosphere, they reflect sunlight better than they keep heat inside, so the net result is cooling. Which processes are dominant is still a matter of research.
by Jeffrey A. Glassman, PhD
"Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere [historically] is the product of oceanic respiration due to the well-known but under-appreciated solubility pump. Carbon dioxide rises out of warm ocean waters where it is added to the atmosphere. There it is mixed with residual and accidental CO2, and circulated, to be absorbed into the sink of the cold ocean waters. Next the thermohaline circulation carries the CO2-rich sea water deep into the ocean. A millennium later it appears at the surface in warm waters, saturated by lower pressure and higher temperature, to be exhausted back into the atmosphere. Throughout the past 420 millennia, comprising four interglacial periods, the Vostok record of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is imprinted with, and fully characterized by, the physics of the solubility of CO2 in water, along with the lag in the deep ocean circulation.
Notwithstanding that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, atmospheric carbon dioxide has neither caused nor amplified global temperature increases. Increased carbon dioxide has been an effect of global warming, not a cause. Technically, carbon dioxide is a lagging proxy for ocean temperatures. When global temperature, and along with it, ocean temperature rises, the physics of solubility causes atmospheric CO2 to increase.
If increases in carbon dioxide, or any other greenhouse gas, could have in turn raised global temperatures, the positive feedback would have been catastrophic. While the conditions for such a catastrophe were present in the Vostok record from natural causes, the runaway event did not occur. Carbon dioxide does not accumulate in the atmosphere."
The graph above represents temperature and CO2 levels over the past 400,000 years. It is the same exact data Al Gore and the rest of the man-made global warmers refer to. The blue line is temps, the red, CO2 levels. The deep valleys represent 4 separate glaciation/ice-age periods. Look carefully at this historical relationship between temps and CO2 levels (the present is on the right hand side of the graph) and keep in mind that Gore claims this data is the 'proof' that CO2 has warmed the earth in the past. But does the data indeed show this? Nope. In fact, rising CO2 levels all throughout this 400,000-year period actually *followed* temperature increases -lagging behind by an average of 800 years! So it couldn't have been CO2 that got Earth out of these past glaciations. Yet Gore continually and dishonestly claims otherwise. Furthermore, the subsequent CO2 level increases due to dissolved CO2 being released from warming oceans, never did lead to additional warming, the so-called "run-away greenhouse effect" that Al Gore and his friends keep warning us about. In short, there is little if any evidence that CO2 had ever led to increased warming, at least not when the levels were within 10-15 times of what they are today. -etl
"The above chart shows the range of global temperature through the last 500 million years. There is no statistical correlation between the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere through the last 500 million years and the temperature record in this interval. In fact, one of the highest levels of carbon dioxide concentration occurred during a major ice age that occurred about 450 million years ago [Myr]. Carbon dioxide concentrations at that time were about 15 times higher than at present." [also see 180 million years ago, same thing happened]:
So, greenhouse [effect] is all about carbon dioxide, right?
Wrong. The most important players on the greenhouse stage are water vapor and clouds [clouds of course aren't gas, but high level ones do act to trap heat from escaping, while low-lying cumulus clouds tend to reflect sunlight and thereby help cool the planet -etl]. Carbon dioxide has been increased to about 0.038% of the atmosphere (possibly from about 0.028% pre-Industrial Revolution) while water in its various forms ranges from 0% to 4% of the atmosphere and its properties vary by what form it is in and even at what altitude it is found in the atmosphere.
In simple terms the bulk of Earth's greenhouse effect is due to water vapor by virtue of its abundance. Water accounts for about 90% of the Earth's greenhouse effect -- perhaps 70% is due to water vapor and about 20% due to clouds (mostly water droplets), some estimates put water as high as 95% of Earth's total tropospheric greenhouse effect (e.g., Freidenreich and Ramaswamy, 'Solar Radiation Absorption by Carbon Dioxide, Overlap with Water, and a Parameterization for General Circulation Models,' Journal of Geophysical Research 98 (1993):7255-7264).
The remaining portion comes from carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane, ozone and miscellaneous other 'minor greenhouse gases.' As an example of the relative importance of water it should be noted that changes in the relative humidity on the order of 1.3-4% are equivalent to the effect of doubling CO2.
Water Vapor Rules the Greenhouse System
Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect (4). Interestingly, many 'facts and figures' regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system, carelessly (perhaps, deliberately) overstating human impacts as much as 20-fold.
Water vapor is 99.999% of natural origin. Other atmospheric greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and miscellaneous other gases (CFC's, etc.), are also mostly of natural origin (except for the latter, which is mostly anthropogenic).
Human activities contribute slightly to greenhouse gas concentrations through farming, manufacturing, power generation, and transportation. However, these emissions are so dwarfed in comparison to emissions from natural sources we can do nothing about, that even the most costly efforts to limit human emissions would have a very small-- perhaps undetectable-- effect on global climate.
Water Vapor Confirmed As Major Player In Climate Change
ScienceDaily (Nov. 18, 2008) Water vapor is known to be Earth's most abundant greenhouse gas, but the extent of its contribution to global warming has been debated. Using recent NASA satellite data, researchers have estimated more precisely than ever the heat-trapping effect of water in the air, validating the role of the gas as a critical component of climate change.
These envirowhacko schemes get funnier every day.
Most clouds exist below where jets fly and have a powerful cooling effect during the day, blanketing effect at night. We can't control the Sun but we can influence Earth's natural iris cost effectively. Global warmongers hate this subject and always say we know little about clouds.
The American tax payers will pay for this wave and fountain show, so it doesn't matter what the cost is.
So a clear winter's night is just as warm as a cloudy one. Yeah right. The clouds hold in the heat. Like I said. They don't block all wavelengths either. I'm not sure where you get your info from but a person can get sunburned on a cloudy day.
This is an engineering solution rather than a tax and regulate scheme. Most engineers are conservatives. We couldn't supply 7 billion people on Earth with food and freshwater without geo-engineering schemes.
My boyfriend calls me "Cloud." It's so cute. I call him Cloud too. It's way better than the usuals, honey, sweetheart, etc. Cloud.
In either case, as long as taxpayers money isn't involved they can design any stupid thing they want.
The liberal word of the 21st century...HOPE!
Change is second in line.
The morning after a clear winter night is colder than a cloudy one because the surface heat radiates out to space. Whether clouds have a net warming or cooling effect has more to do with their thickness than their altitude. Clouds are Earth's iris and are the most significant factor in how much solar energy originally enters the oceans and climate. Human activity already influences them.
The heat radiates out because the clouds aren't retaining the surface heat. Clouds during the day don't block all the radiation but do, just as during the night, retain the longer wavelengths such as infrared/heat. They also reflect a lot of radio frequencies for the same reason.
Given the cooling that is reality, should these "cloudships" be implemented and be successful they wiould probably usher in a new Ice Age with attendant famine, etc.
Clouds reflect the surface heat back down, and sunshine back up. It does not matter to the surface what the heat content of a cloud is, only it's thickness and altitude. Blankets don't keep you warm by being warm, but by reflecting your own heat back at you. Due to its inefficiency, a blanket becomes slightly warm from your heat loss, but that has no influence on how warm it keeps you.
Because clouds are reflective they can be used at night to retain heat. Farmer's used to use smudge pots to create man-made cloud blankets that kept citrus trees from freezing. Clouds can be influenced to swing the surface temperature either direction. We can prevent an ice age or global warming with cloud control. We can't influence the Sun, but we can influence clouds.
Oh wow, and they thought Reagan was crazy for his Star Wars plan, something that could have saved us! BUT CLOUD SHIPS? These people just don't know how stupid they sound!
Global warming on Free Republic
Latest from Global Warming News Site
My gut feeling says that is definitely not a good idea.......
That's what I thought. Water vapor would be the only low energy way I could foresee and it would be a very low volume.
Clouds are poor reflectors of radio frequencies. Radar cannot see a cloud, but can see precipitation. On the other hand thick clouds are strong reflectors of infrared heat. Almost all of the heat in a cloud originally came from the surface at the time the water evaporated. Clouds absorb very little new heat from the surface once they are up there.
What's the saying? : Nothing's impossible for those who don't have to do it.
Post of the day!
[. . .they could use the resulting freshwater.]
If this program would increase rainfall over the Middle East without adversely affecting the climate elsewhere Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai and some others might be happy to pay for it.
Smudge pots produce heat which helps to keep citrus from freezing. The smoke is pretty much gone once the pot is 'primed'. After it gets about 29 or 30 degrees F, they don't work. (former Florida Citrus Belt resident)
Why don't they do something much less expensive and a lot more effective: PRAY!
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PRICE-Our loving mother, sister, grandmother, great-grandmother and friend to all, Lois Ada Moore Failor, age 83, passed away suddenly on Aug. 19, 2010 in Salt Lake City.
She was born on Jan. 20, 1927 in Tacoma, Wash., the second daughter of Frank and Ada Irene Hamilton Moore.
Lois was raised by her mother in Salt Lake City and graduated from South High School in 1944. On Feb. 5, 1946, she married the love of her life, William "Bill" Edgar Failor in Ely, Nev. They began their lives together by moving to Quincy, Ill. for 15 years where she worked as a telephone operator, also at Quincy Speaker and for Motorola for five years.
In 1961 Bill and Lois moved back to Salt Lake City where she worked as an inspector for Sperry Rand for two years. Then in the fall of 1966, they made their journey to Price, Utah where she's resided ever since.
Lois was well known for the 26 years of dedicated service to the children and City of Price as a school crossing guard. She helped many children and then their children make it to school safely. Lois was always the one to dress up in some of the most outrageous costumes for Halloween and she was seen helping children cross the street dressed up as a gorilla, a milk cow or even a clown.
Lois was a kind and gentle friend to all and will be remembered for her smile and ability to tell jokes. She was always generous and never met a stranger. She definitely had the gift of gab and she brought great warmth and friendship to all. Her greatest enjoyment was spending time with her children, grandchildren, and her many friends at the Senior Center in Price.
Lois is survived by her three children and their spouses, Jeffrey Alan (Julie) Failor, Wellington, Utah, JoAnn Jody (Charles) Trujillo, Battlement Mesa, Colo., Dawna Irene (Joe) Priano, Sandy, Utah; 16 grandchildren, three great-grandchildren; her only sister, Mildred Jensen, Rockville, Utah; dearest cousin, Doris (Les) Oxborrow, McGill, Nev.; and her dearest friend, Darlene (Stu) Foster, Price.
Preceded in death by parents, her spouse Bill of 58 years who passed away on Dec. 6, 2003; infant son, David; and granddaughter, Misti Irene Downard.
Funeral service, Thursday, Aug. 26, 2010, 10 a.m., Mitchell Funeral Home, (233 East Main Street) Price. Family will be at Mitchell's Wednesday evening from 7-8 p.m. and Thursday one hour prior to service. Interment, Price City Cemetery. Friends are welcome to sign the guestbook and share memories of Lois online at www.mitchellfuneralhome.net.


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U.S. Army War College >> Strategic Studies Institute >> Publications >> Details
Conflict and Conflict Resolution in the Sahel: The Tuareg Insurgency in Mali
Authored by Lieutenant Colonel Kalifa Keita.
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Brief Synopsis
June 27, 1990, is a significant date in the recent history of Mali. It marks the beginning of what Malians call "The Second Tuareg Rebellion." The first had been staged against the post-colonial Malian government in 1963. The national government had suppressed that rebellion with harsh coercive measures, and the Tuaregs continued to nurture grievances. The second Tuareg rebellion coincided in the early 1990s with turbulent political developments in Malian society as a whole. It soon was clear that Mali's stability and progress were contingent on ending the insurgency. This, in turn, required a solution to Tuareg grievances. By the mid-1990s, Mali apparently had found a solution. Though by no means easy, or assured, that solution may provide useful insights into conflict resolution in the region as a whole. This study describes the nature of the Malian solution and indicates the reasons for its success to date. More specifically, this study considers the Tuareg rebellion from the perspective of a senior Malian military officer who lived the events. It describes a conflict little known and poorly reported outside of West Africa. It emphasizes the trauma of conflict in developing societies and the excruciatingly difficult political and economic choices faced by their leaders. It highlights the appropriate role of the international community in resolving such conflicts. Finally, it illustrates that resolution of intra-state conflict in Africa requires intensive efforts to secure the willing cooperation of local communities with military and civil government agencies.
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Canucks Team Needs: Secondary Scoring
Jeff Angus
June 18 2013 10:53AM
We kicked off "Team Needs" week at Canucks Army on Monday with a look at third-line centre options this offseason. That series continues today with a look at top-six forward options.
I looked at some second line options last week (including David Clarkson and Valtteri Filppula), and that analysis will be expanded upon a bit in today's post. Let's assume that Ryan Kesler remains at center and the Canucks find themselves in the market for a top six right winger at a bargain basement price (a very realistic scenario). Who is available in-house? How about on the trade market?
The Diagnosis
Secondary scoring has been a problem with the Canucks over the past two seasons, especially in the playoffs. David Booth was brought in to help in that department but outside of a solid stretch of play in 2011-12, he has failed to deliver in the way of tangible production. Basically David Booth drives play when he's healthy, but he doesn't drive offense.
Assuming that David Booth and Ryan Kesler are put together on the second line, and that in an ideal world Jannik Hansen and Chris Higgins hold down third line roles, what type of player do the Canucks need to best compliment them? The answer is an easy one – a playmaker. That doesn't mean that the third player on that line has to be Henrik Sedin 2.0, though, which is good since that player doesn't really exist. Booth and Kesler are both shoot-first players, and finding a winger who sees the ice and can get both of them the puck in prime scoring areas would be the best course of action for Mike Gillis to take.
Playmakers typically play center, as the position allows them to spend more time with the puck on their stick (which is why many believe that Kesler may be best suited for the right wing with a more "typical" center). However, there are a number of elite (or very good) playmakers on the wing, including Martin St. Louis, PA Parenteau, Daniel Sedin, and Patrick Kane.
For all of his faults, Booth is still relatively young, he has a proven track record of production, and his underlying numbers have always been good. I think the eye test is just as important in Booth's case (bad luck has been a factor, sure), and he hasn't really looked comfortable in a Vancouver sweater. He zigs when his linemates zag. He shoots when he shouldn't, and seems to have trouble at times with even the most basic stickhandling maneuvers. He was particularly out of sorts during Vancouver's first round defeat against Los Angeles in 2013.
We all know what to expect from a healthy Kesler. He's one of the best two-way forwards in hockey. He's a power play dynamo. He wins faceoffs and plays a lot. But can he maintain his aggressive style of play and avoid injury? Kesler hasn't just had a few bumps and bruises over the past two years – torn labrums in both his hip and shoulder. Each of those is a very serious injury, procedure, and extensive recovery.
Possible In-House Solutions
Zack Kassian
In a perfect world, the Canucks use whatever limited cap space they have this summer (currently none) to find a third line center and another defenseman, and Kassian reports to camp ready to play top six minutes. Kassian is exactly what the second line of Booth and Kesler would need in a linemate – he's not fast, but he can keep up with them in terms of skating. Kassian's best attribute is his vision and creativity. We have seen flashes of it over the past few years, but he is still lacking in the consistency department.
An example of said vision:
The Canucks won't be expecting Kassian to play top six minutes next season (at least they shouldn't). However, it would be a major boon to the team if he came to camp and earned that second line spot. He has top six abilities, but they don't show through consistently. Basically he has yet to take the next step with his development. Kassian ultimately is too skilled to be just a physical third or fourth line presence, and his solid first round against the Sharks (one of only two or three Canucks who can say that) was an encouraging sign heading into the summer.
Nicklas Jensen
On paper, at least, Vancouver's 2011 1st round pick is also a great fit for a potential Booth-Kesler line. Jensen is a big body who sees the ice very well. Like Kassian, he isn't a speedster, but he can move around the ice just fine. Jensen has more offensive upside than Kassian, but he also has more limited NHL experience. The Canucks definitely won't enter the offseason assuming that he is ready for top six minutes (heck, even penciling him into the lineup is a stretch), but that doesn't mean that they can't hope for it.
The team wants to get bigger, younger, and stronger? Jensen hits all three of those.
Jannik Hansen/Chris Higgins
Hansen and Higgins are both "tweeners" – players who are capable of playing on a scoring line in a pinch, but much better suited for third line responsibilities on a contending team. And if you promote one of them to the second line, you create another hole on line three.
The Open Market
I highlighted several UFA options last week. Among the players profiled – David Clarkson, Nathan Horton, and Jarome Iginla. Clarkson isn't a playmaker in the slightest, but he is a possession monster who plays with an edge and makes his living in and around the opposition's crease. He'd be the ideal signing for many teams this summer, Vancouver included. However, because of his unique attributes, he is very likely to command upwards of $5 million per season.
Here are a few other UFA options to fill the right wing position on line two:
Michael Ryder
Ryder has defied the typical production path of most offensive players, hitting career numbers in his early 30's. He's more scorer than playmaker, and he doesn't bring a lot else to the table other than that beauty wrister. But offense is exactly what has let the Canucks down in recent years. Ryder had 21 points in 27 games with Montreal after coming over from Dallas last season, and he scored 35 goals with the Stars in 2011-12.
Montreal won't be bringing him back, and the Canucks previously took a look at Ryder during Gillis' first summer on the job in 2008 (Ryder turned down Vancouver's three-year $12 million offer to sign an identical one with the Boston Bruins).
At the end of the day, Ryder has five 25+ goal seasons in the NHL. He can put the puck in the net. He turned 33 this summer, and something in the two-year range would be an ideal fit for Vancouver.
Damien Brunner
Brunner had a very solid North American debut with the Wings in 2012-13 – 26 points in 44 games, and five goals and nine points in 14 postseason contests. Although he isn't big or particularly fleet of foot, he's a skilled offensive player and is only 27 years old.
The Canucks got a sampling of what he can do back in late February:
Brunner only scored two goals in his final 25 regular season games, though. Was it other teams figuring him out, or did he hit a bit of a wall after scoring 10 in his first 19? Brunner played 91 games this season, combining his time in Switzerland during the lockout with his NHL rookie campaign. That is a lot of hockey for someone used to 40 or 50 games a season.
Brad Boyes
Boyes went to the Islanders on a cheap one-year deal and rebuilt his offensive game (and subsequently his value as a free agent). It was a calculated risk, and one that will likely pay off for him come July 5th. Playing with John Tavares and Matt Moulson will be his meal ticket to a big contract. He's a solid player, and he has scored 40 goals before (although that was a while ago). Is he the right fit for the second line? Probably not, but he won't cost as much as Clarkson or Horton.
Clarke MacArthur
Clarke MacArthur has failed to "eye test" for many Leafs fans, and also for headcoach Randy Carlyle. But he's been immensely productive in the recent past, is an under-rated playmaker, and drives play. Moreover, because he struggled last season in a severely limited role, he'll come an awful lot cheaper than the likes of Horton and Clarkson - players he's ultimately very comparable too. MacArthur might be one of the best potential value players on the market this summer.
Danny Briere
With the addition of Mark Streit, the writing is on the wall of Danny Briere in Philadelphia. Forty-eight hours after the conclusion of the Stanley Cup Final, Briere will be bought out and free to sign a standard player contract with the other 29 teams in the league. Briere's value has likely atrophied as a result of his diminished production the past couple of seasons, though as Cam Charron pointed out over at TheLeafsNation at least some of that is percentage and luck based. Briere has spent time playing the wing during his career, and certainly qualifies as a "playmaker" of the sort that we're talking about.
It is tough to speculate who the Canucks could pursue this summer, as they have zero cap space right now. There will be a lot of moving parts leading up to July 5th, though.
The Trade Market
For speculation's sake, we looked at who the Canucks could target if they were to trade Alex Edler this summer (including Loui Eriksson, TJ Oshie, and Sean "every team wants to trade for me" Couturier. After seeing some of the contracts paid out to defensemen over the past week or so (Sergei Gonchar, Mark Streit, and Roman Josi), I think we can safely say that trading Edler (short of a monumental return) would be a significant mistake, even for a team relatively rich in defensemen.
If Edler is off the table, there really isn't much in the Canucks organization that could be dangled to land a second line forward. The team won't move Jensen, Kassian, or Brendan Gaunce. Maybe Chris Tanev if the team and him can't come to terms?
Assuming that Ryan Kesler and David Booth can remain healthy next season, a huge if, there are a few unproven options within the organization who might fill out the second line. Options outside of the organization, meanwhile, are more proven but likely too expensive.
Finding the right fit for the second line depends on that lines actual makeup (I could see Booth playing a third-line role next year, for example) and how that line will be utilized. What's clear is that, cap-crunch aside, the Canucks need additional secondary scoring depth. How much cap space the Canucks can create between the end of the finals and July 5th, however, will ultimately determine what sorts of players the Canucks can target.
2013 Team Needs:
I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on your suggestion that Booth and Kesler are shoot-first forwards....
And i really like the suggestion of Danny Briere. Although he is injured proned and older, he's a helluva player... and is a great playmaker....also a clutch playoff performer.
I originally thought about this lineup:
Sedin / Sedin / Burrows Booth / Briere / Kesler
But then I thought about it.. Despite Briere quite may be the gel/solution to connect Booth and Kesler... The line of Sedins and Burrows together again is just the same formula that went to no success in the 2013 season.
So I want to suggest this lineup..
Sedin / Sedin / Kesler Burrows / Briere / Kassian
The top 6 is based on Kesler being able to bring that mojo to the Sedin line that seems to be lacking mojo when it counts... Also, this is based on the fact that Booth gets healthy enough for us to dump his ass.... Or if we cant.. i would not mind to give him a chance on the top 6... Booth / Briere / Kassian... and then we trade Burrows (*although he's my favorite player.. and i know its unthinkable and unbearable for me to see Burr in another team)... but these are desperate times and that calls for desperate measures. Trade Burrows for prospects and/or bottom 6 forwards or Faceoff specialists...
Also, Kassian along with Burrows and Briere would be good for him too... Kassian needs TIME to gel... Coach V was dumping him up and down... into 1st line, 2nd line, 4th line... GIVE THE FKER SOME TIME TO GEL AND GET SOME CHEMISTRY.... fk.... We need a more patient coach and...
...this is why I also prefer John Stevens than John Tortorella due to what i perceived as a more patient mentorship... but then from a team morale point of view, I like Tortorella because he's a straight up guy that tells u ur playing like sh(t if you are... Picking Stevens will be like keeping the status quo.... Picking Torts really means we're serious about correcting the "toxicity" and "accountability" of the dressing room...
Because at the end of the day, all these somomab*tches on Canucks were the same guys telling us... "No we got this.." ... "Oh this is the best team that I've been on heading into the playoffs.".... "Oh maybe the shortened season will allow us to go further."... RESULT: 4-0 Playoff Sweep in the 1st Round... Maybe Tortorella can be the scapegoat to take the Vancouver media for the players... and the players may benefit from that?... I dont know...
BUT DAMNIT.. SIGN DANNY BRIERE to a 2 yr $8m deal... Pavol Demitra (RIP Pavol) money.. but obviously I think Danny would be better than what Pavol offered in those 2 years.
Why not trade to get #2 pick overall in 2013 NHL Draft.....
Edler, Luongo and Canucks' 1st Round pick
to Florida
Florida's 1st Rd Pick (#2 Overall), and George Parros / Marcel Goc / Sean Bergenheim...
Lines would be verrrry solid:
Sedin / Sedin / Kesler; Burrows / Mackinnon / Jensen; Booth / Gaunce / Kassian Higgins / Goc / Sestito (Weise/Hansen/Lapierre)
Hamhuis / Bieksa Garrison / Corrado Ballard / Tanev
stop smoking so much drugs.
@Mantastic.. well that's a careful and elaborate response.
It's a forum. Just posting ideas. If you don't like reading it, don't.
While I doubt it's plan A, the most likely scenario involves Kassian, Jensen and possibly Schroeder battling for that 2nd line spot with Higgins and Hansen as fallback options.
"I think we can safely say that trading Edler (short of a monumental return) would be a significant mistake, even for a team relatively rich in defensemen."
I'm okay with trading anyone. But these proposals centred around wingers and young centres like Couturier have always seemed too light.
St Louis traded Erik Johnson for Chris Stewart and Kevin Shattenkirk.
If Edler is traded, it should be for something like that.
I think Edler would receive a 7 year $49 million contract at minimum if he had hit the open market. Top pairing defenseman with the tools to be #1 defenseman do not grow on trees.
how can i unread something that i've already read? you can't like or not like a post until you've read it. you're statement is invalid.
what's the point of posting a crazy idea that would never happen and is clearly crazy?
shattenkirk was an unproven rookie with upside at that point of time and Erik Johnson had his draft pedegree that still hasn't been realized (so they thought). it was really just a Chris Stewart + an A prospect for a past #1 overall d-man.
an Edler trade compared to Johnson trade now isn't the right comparison to use at all. Edler is a know quantity that has probably hit his ceiling, which isn't a #1 d-man because he's been sheltered
here's another comparison...
LA Kings traded Jack Johnson (who isn't nearly as good as Edler) and a late 1st round pick for a legitimate sniper in Jeff Carter.
So if Edler is traded, we should expect - at the bare minimum - a player of that caliber in return.
this is a better comparision but still has different factors which isn't a perfect comparison. Carter didn't fit in CBJ and wanted out bad so his value lowered. but both trades involved subpar GMs giving up more for high pedegree D-men, which edler is not, to no fault of his own.
shattenkirk was an unproven rookie with upside at that point of time and Erik Johnson had his draft pedegree that still hasn't been realized (so they thought). it was really just a Chris Stewart + an A prospect for a past #1 overall d-man.
an Edler trade compared to Johnson trade now isn't the right comparison to use at all. Edler is a know quantity that has probably hit his ceiling, which isn't a #1 d-man because he's been sheltered
Johnson was nearly 23 when the trade went down. Yes he was a 1st overall pick. But that was nearly 5 years prior to the trade. I'd argue his star had dimmed a bit at that point.
Are you suggesting Johnson then was worth significantly more than Edler now? Not sure I agree with that espescially considering Edler is controlled on a team friendly contract for 6 years.
"an Edler trade compared to Johnson trade now isn't the right comparison to use at all. Edler is a know quantity that has probably hit his ceiling, which isn't a #1 d-man because he's been sheltered"
Can you think of a defenceman like Edler with a similar contract that has been traded in the recent past?
I can't. Of course the Johnson trade comparison is imperfect. Top pairing defenseman in their primes on good contracts almost never get traded.
That fact alone is why a team should have to pay a ton for Edler. Or keep him.
Edler isn't a top pairing d-man here and that's why i can't see him being a top pairing d-man on a good team or even calling him a top pairing d-man.
like i said Edler is more of a known quantity at this point of time, pretty much the ceiling of his career. (i can totally be wrong in the future but this is how i see it right now)
Johnsson at the time still had a little potential of improving. younger than Edler is now
i'm not saying that it was a good trade, as i mentioned before the trades featured 2 sub-par GMs and 2 high draft pedegree d-men, you can make the same comparision as Cam Barker for Leddy+ at the time and that's why the trade comparison isn't comparable.
best comparasion is Ballard trade IMO, but Edler has worse adjusted corsi than Ballard for their respective teams before being traded. so 1st rounder, A prospect, and middle six roster player.
Has had injury problems and apparently may not be ready for the start of the season, but I wonder how easily we could acquire Kris Versteeg in a deal for Luo. Could see him being a great fit on the second line with Kesler and Kassian. Also like the idea of Briere. Almost every option we have at this point is a pretty big risk it seems.
Praying that we hire John Stevens over Tortorella. Look at what he did in charge of the Kings D, for the development of Voynov, Muzzin and even Doughty. He seems like the guy who could finally get through to Edler. Also when Stevens was coach in Philly he brought them to 5th in the league in offence from around 23rd.
@Mantastic Edler still has a lot of room to improve. Any team trading for him would believe that.
Unlike Erik Johnson, Jack Johnson & Cam Barker, Alex Edler has yet to be traded and he is 27.
I agree those 3 guys had theoretical upside.
But there was also a reason all 3 were available in trade.
I also agree with you that Edler is more of a known commodity and may very well have hit his ceiling. He is not that young anymore, after all.
Edler, as far as we know, is not available in trade. The Canucks just extended him, in fact.
Ballard was a contract dump by Tallon. He was a new GM and Vancouver is Ballard's 3rd team.
And we could argue Ballard was acquired by a subpar GM as well.
There aren't any perfect comparables obviously.
But I personally feel the Canucks should only move Edler if a team makes them an offer they can't refuse.
i completely agree, that you should only move him for any over pay or when you are getting very good perceived value.
i just disagreed with the comparason used.
some GMs will over value Edler, others will under value him. you just need the perfect dance partner to pull off a heist of a trade, which i don't think Gillis has the ability to do.
acquiring Versteeg will not help the canucks cap problem.
LA Kings also has D prospects like Teubert and Hickey... Stevens isn't reason for Muzzin, Voynov and Doughty, good drafting is.
Edler improving a lot is a stretch... he's 27
Besides Edler, there really is no one of significant trade value on the Canucks.
Technically, he can still be traded before July 1st before his new contract begins.
If 2nd pick is available, why not build the team around Mackinnon and Kesler? It would be sick.
Also, on a side note, I don't get why Mike Gillis signs on these garbage UFAs and just dump them after... i.e. Oreskovich, Pinizotto... but why do they give Weise soooo many chances?
Oreskovich sucks.. okay.. i get it... Pinizotto had some glimpses of good checking and decent hockey... He was injured for so long but still made a small impact.... and now they're not going to re-sign him?... Why not give time to these bit pieces to get used to the system and its not like their salaries are expensive..
you can't get the 2nd overall pick with Edler and the 24th pick. Tallon will only move down as far as 4th and would still require an additional large assest for him to do it.
You're right the Erik Johnson comparable isn't very good.
Heck, the more I think about it the Ballard trade, while still imperfect, is more comparable. Which is scary!
I guess my hope is that, despite his age, teams still see more upside in Edler and that any potential trade would be with a dance partner who is willing to "overpay".
But, sadly, that really isn't something we should be banking on.
How did you guys end up with Ballard as Edler's best comparable?
The market for Edler would easily be bigger than the market for Ballard in 2010.
how would it be easily? everyone knows Van is in a bind for cap space (leverage), Edler isn't a top pairing D-man.
Edler is either bringing back something via a hockey trade roster player (top 6 winger/ middle 6 center) or an A level prospect and pick package.
look at ballard before the trade, pretty much the same place edler is in
Edler has more size and has more offensive upside than Ballard. Right or wrong, GMs pay extra for both.
Edler already has two 10+ goal seasons and two 40+ point seasons. Ballard has neither. Ballard's career high for goals over 82 games is 8; Edler scored 8 goals in 45 games last season - almost double Ballard's best. In 2011-12 Edler finished 7th in the league in scoring amongst defensmen. Ballard has never had the track record that Edler has already accomplished.
I am also not convinced that Edler's struggles aren't, in some part at least, related to coaching and I believe that some GMs will believe that also.
Ballard was (is) an undersized (by NHL standards) defenseman with some offensive potential but he was never likely to put up the numbers that Edler has already put up.
"everyone knows Van is in a bind for cap space (leverage), "
When it comes to good players (yes, Edler is a good player) with more than one team bidding for their services (there would be more than one team), the bind for cap space doesn't mean anything. The price is set by supply and demand.
you can also blame coaching for his counting stats, favourable zone starts, playing with other players that hit their career highs as well. he has hit these numbers because of the position the coaching staff has put him in.
again like i said before some people will over value him, others won't. i don't think you will get a randsom for Edler's return because there isn't many trades you could compare it to that prove otherwise. the only reason you get rid of Edler is because of cap issues or someone is over paying, the return on either scenerios differ by a wide margin.
And you could blame injuries for some of his struggles the past few months ... this could go back and forth forever. The point is that he has qualities that we know GMs value because they pay for them all the time when they sign FAs (restricted and unrestricted) and he definitely has more value than Ballard did.
" i don't think you will get a randsom for Edler's return because there isn't many trades you could compare it to that prove otherwise."
There is a reason why there aren't more trades to compare - teams don't like to willingly part with good young offensive defensemen.
I didn't say ransom, I said he had more value in the market than Ballard and that they weren't great comparables.
signing FA's is completely different then making trades. signing FA's all you're losing is money and cap space. Trading assests is a completely different animal.
I somewhat agree with both you and JCDavies.
If all Edler yields is a Ballard-like package, Gillis simply won't move him.
I can't imagine Edler being available unless a team pays a premium for all the tools JCDavies mentions.
Does that mean Edler can bring back a Stewart/Shattenkirk or Carter package? Unlikely. But all it takes is one team.
If the significant return isn't there the Canucks certainly don't have to move Edler.
Value is value; Edler is worth more in both markets.
"If all Edler yields is a Ballard-like package, Gillis simply won't move him."
Exactly. If Ballard was a good comparable a deal could easily happen but he's not. A Ballard-like return won't be good enough.
that's ridiculous to think like that. if someone was willing to sign Edler to 6m a year they would not trade 6m worth of assets (prospects/roster players/picks) to the canucks to aquire him because those assets are valued higher to that team, like how you value Edler...
i don't know how you are putting a firm value on Edler saying he's worth more when you can't prove that he is, besides just saying that he is.
you just don't want anyone comparing edler to ballard because of in hindsight the canucks got swindled and ballard is awful.
and please don't kid yourself if you think edler is some kind of elite player because he isn't, he's a flawed player.
" if someone was willing to sign Edler to 6m a year they would not trade 6m worth of assets (prospects/roster players/picks) "
I don't even know what this means or where I said anything like this.
Also, I didn't claim that Edler was an elite player or that he didn't have flaws.
If I can't convince you that Edler, as a 27 year old defenseman, has more value than Ballard at 27 years, then this is a lost cause.
you said value is value and that he's worth more in both markets... how else am i suppose to read that?
he's worth more in the open market but on trading market the value should roughly be the same if he getting traded for prospects and picks.
June 21 2013, 04:28PM
Gillis does not have the balls to tamper with the core. Add to that the fact many have no trade clauses and it limits what you can do. Higgy, Edler and Burr have their NTCs kicking in this summer. I say you have to deal all three otherwise you're looking at a long period with players you can't move.
Edler should get you a lot and is signed to a bargain deal (especially after some of the recent signings). He should get you a young, top line player.
Burrows is still good but he is older and the contract isn't that much of a bargain. You could try for a blue chip prospect along the lines.
Higgy is good and he'd be a good guy to keep but I am not a fan of yet another NTC on the team. Take a gamble and try to land a prospect that may become a solid NHL player.
Our core has some offence. Most of it doesn't show up come playoffs. Maybe Gillis was right when he first came here...maybe we can't win with the Sedins as our feature players.