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Cows slowly chew grass under the rays of County Down's warm sun. They're in the shadow of a saint, and they don't even know it
Across the road sits Saul Church and its amber-coloured round tower. It's a modest place – no frills, no grandeur, no gilded altars or lavish ceilings. It's modest because St Patrick, who it was built to commemorate, had a modest life. And if you want proof, jog back 1,700 years to this same spot where he established his first church... in a barn.
But we're getting ahead of ourselves, because long before Patrick was a saint and well before he was a saviour, he was a slave.
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Just like the cows, the sheep on the side of Slemish Mountain have no idea this is where Ireland's patron saint found fortitude. Kidnapped from his home on Britain's coast, a teenage Patrick was bonded to slavery on Slemish.
Imagine it: ripped from family and home as a teen, deposited on a rocky outcrop without a soul in sight, and subjected to rain, sleet and snow. Patrick did all he could do, and turned to prayer.
However he did it, Ireland's patron saint managed to leave a glow of serenity behind on this mountain, as well as on the vastness of County Down's pastoral heartland.
A successful escape took Patrick home, but dreams plagued him. The pagan land of Ireland demanded his return, and so he came back to turn Ireland's population from pagan to Christian.
This time, though, it was at his own pace. Under the elbow of County Down and up into Strangford Lough, if Patrick needed a fresh impression of Ireland, he found it here. He sailed into a scene of scattered islands, rocky nooks and green fields.
But Patrick wasn't here for the scenery. He had work to do.
Patrick's busy schedule took him to the site of what is now St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin (so named after he was said to have baptised converts here); and to the Rock of Cashel in Tipperary (where Patrick is said to have baptised the King of Munster by accidentally putting the spiked end of his crozier through the king's foot).
It took him to Lough Derg in Donegal to found a monastery; and to the Hill of Slane in County Meath, where he lit his Paschal fire.
It was on Croagh Patrick, though, where he had an epiphany. On scree slopes and with views of Clew Bay, Patrick spent 40 days and 40 nights.
And St Patrick isn't the only one to have found solace on the peak. Each year, thousands of visitors climb the mountain for a slice of the clarity the saint himself sought.
Some do it barefoot. Some find answers. All find peace.
Standing over the smooth stone that denotes the saint's final resting place at Down Cathedral, it hits you – Patrick left a legacy. His life was epic, and Ireland clings close to his memory to this day, with legends, rich heritage and one of the best festivals in the world.
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College Sponsored Networking Events
Businesses and successful alumni come to campus to share their wealth of knowledge and network with students on a regular basis. We also host Speed Networking — face-to-face encounters with company representatives. Bring both your "A" game and your resume, and you could leave with a job offer or two!
Link to URL:
Release Date:9/7/2012 9:02 PM

subset: commoncrawl


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EAST CARBON-Our loving father, grandfather, brother, and friend, Warren B. Whitlock, age 85, passed away Sept. 30, 2008 in Price.
He was born Jan. 24, 1923 in Annabella, Utah to Joseph and Lillian Porter Whitlock.
Married Sarah Frances "Sue"Coggins Goniotakis, Jan. 11, 1969 in Price, Utah; she died March 17, 2007.
Warren was a member of the Christian Missionary Alliance Church of East Carbon. He was a longtime resident of East Carbon where he served as a Head Start volunteer for many years. He enjoyed traveling, family gatherings and going to lunch every day with his friends at the senior center in East Carbon.
Warren was an honorary life member of Price Elk's Lodge #1550. He honorably served his country in the U.S. Army during World War II. He retired from Kaiser Steel in 1982 and was a dedicated member of the United Mine Workers of America. He will be dearly missed by all who knew and loved him.
Survived by his daughters, Patricia Frandsen, Price; Linda Diane (Mike) Doporto, Salt Lake City; Terri (Art) Salas, Spring Glen; twin brother, Garren B. (Louise) Whitlock, East Carbon; brother, Jimmy (Pat) Whitlock, Kanab; nine grandchildren; and 12 great- grandchildren. Preceded in death by his parents, wife, Sarah; sisters, Elaine, Ludean and Sharon; brothers, Odell and George.
Funeral service was held Monday Oct. 6, 2008, 11 a.m. Christian Missionary Alliance Community Church in East Carbon. Family was at Mitchell Funeral Home Sunday evening from 5-7 p.m. and at the church Monday one hour prior to service. Interment, Cliffview Cemetery, Price.


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With this masonry fire pit plan, you can skip the concrete and mortar. Instead, use that time to build our rustic log benches.
5 Best Pergola Plans & Inspiration
With this masonry fire pit plan, you can skip the concrete and mortar. Instead, use that time to build our rustic log benches. You'll be sitting around a fire on a cool evening before you know it.More
My wife and I love lighting a big fire in the backyard to cap off a day of entertaining. But building a pyre on the lawn left an ugly charred circle that grew larger over time. It made me cringe the next morning; it was like a visual hangover. We also worried that a wind-blown ember could torch the nearby woods.
I considered building a traditional brick fire pit on a concrete footing, but that's no small undertaking or expense. The first step would be to dig a 30-inch-deep footing trench down through rocky soil. Then I'd have to get the concrete into the trench. Even if I opted to get the material delivered, it's not easy lugging it by wheelbarrow. Mixing it by hand also seemed like a backbreaker. So I abandoned the idea of traditional masonry. Investigating chimineas and steel fire rings at a nearby home center, my wife and I discovered the Fossil Stone Fire Pit from Natural Concrete Products, a $500 kit of concrete blocks and a steel fire ring.
Much to my surprise, a buddy and I constructed the pit in 4 hours. When night fell, I kindled a big fire. Friends gathered, and I relaxed with a cold beer. The pit looked great and safely contained the fire without a burnt ring of grass the next day.
Here's what not to do: Build the pit under low-hanging limbs or power lines. Also, avoid putting it over or near a septic tank, leaching field, well head, or property line. Local laws will almost certainly require you to position a structure of this type a given distance from your neighbor's plot, not to mention your own house. Check the codes at the town hall or the fire department.
After my buddy—Roy Berendsohn, Popular Mechanics' senior home editor—and I had located the ideal spot in my yard, we drove a stake at the approximate center of the pit, looped a mason's line around the stake, and then tied the line around a can of white landscape spray paint, with which I created a 102-inch-diameter circle. This is large enough to accommodate the pit, whose outside diameter is 66 inches, and a surrounding 18-inch band of River Jacks gravel.
To create a base for the pit and gravel, we dug a hole 4 inches deep bordered by the painted circle and dumped in enough crushed stone to fill a few wheelbarrows. (I used 2A Modified, a common road-building material in my area; check for something similar at your local stone yard.) After raking the stone to a depth of about 2 inches, we compacted it with a hand tamper.
For aesthetic reasons and to ensure the fire-pit blocks align properly, it's important to build the pit's walls on a level surface. So we marked a 68-inch-diameter circle (a couple inches wider than the outer wall of the pit) on the compacted stone, then used a 4-foot mason's level to check the surface. We weren't as fussy about leveling the rest of the stone, since it would be covered just by the gravel.
Tool Test: The 5 Best Edgers To Tame Your Lawn


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You guy's are too quick to dismiss a thread that could actually be more on the entertaining side than the informative or debatable side that seems to be the abundant around this section. I'll play along, it would seem like fun to see other peoples own custom made Jolly Rogers.
I Love You!
Your "seemingly" unintended stupidity is very amusing.
Nice thread though, don't know what you guys are getting all fired up about..
"With a thrust it's a Spear; with a sweep it's a Naginata, when you hold it, it's a Longsword; a Cane can become each of those things!"-
Kugatachi Danki
Bored? Play BattleDawn
"The Best Strategy MMO Browser Game"


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St George Collection: travel in style by Aaron› 26 Apr 2012
With it being St George's Day this week we've been unveiling our new collection , inspired by the flag of England's patron saint, which features a smart range of kits and boots for England players and fans. But what about carrying it all off? Today, we've got some fantastic luggage that will allow fans and players to show their support for England in a smart, sophisticated way this summer, which will all be available from 4th May.
The St George Collection Leather Weekender Bag will be used by all the England players as they travel to Poland and the Ukraine this summer. Crafted from a soft but durable leather, the bag features the iconic England crest and Umbro double diamond logo embossed on the side and subtle red England striping. Inside, the bag's link to the St George collection is enhanced by the rich striping detail also found on the England shirt and Umbro's St George football boots.
Alongside the weekender bag is the St George Collection Leather Messenger Bag , a stylish addition to the travel range for this summer. With a durable, comfortable over-body strap, this spacious leather bag also features the England crest embossed on the main body. Inside, the red striped lining connects the bag with the St George collection, and ensures that wherever you travel you'll be in a smart frame of mind.
The luggage range for the summer is completed by the St George Collection Leather Wash Bag , a smart piece that allows you to show your support for England wherever you travel. Crafted from the same smart leather as the other luggage pieces, the wash bag features the England crest embossed on the side and the stylish Umbro red striping on the lining.
All the luggage additions to the St George collection will be available to buy on May 4th.


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Fast Facts
The Lexington at Jackson Hole Hotel & Suites is a finely appointed hotel known for its outstanding amenities and customer service. Travelers will enjoy The Lexington's comfort & Western hospitality, and our knowledgeable staff will help you choose the perfect adventures in Jackson Hole.
The Lexington at Jackson Hole Hotel & Suites was founded, in 1970, as the Trapper Inn, by the Kudar family. After 40 years of successful operation, a major expansion and remodeling project was completed in 2006, elevating the sophistication of the hotel's offerings. In 2009, The Trapper Inn became part of The Lexington Collection yet still maintains its local pedigree with the leadership of Diana (Kudar) and Tim Waycott.
And in the Spring of 2012, The Lexington Hotel & Suites completed our most recent phase of upgrades. The Courtyard rooms have been completely remodeled with careful attention to every detail. These rooms have been stripped to the core, reconstructed and appointed with beautiful, luxury finishings. Click here for more details!
As a unique, family owned hotel, The Lexington at Jackson Hole boasts a wide variety of finely furnished guest rooms. Our two Queen Suites & Luxury King rooms offer a spacious, modern luxury. Our courtyard rooms, completely renovated in Spring of 2012, offer a traditional space with added amenities like heated tile flooring. Explore our rooms and suites.
The Lexington at Jackson Hole Hotel & Suites offers a host of thoughtful, modern amenities to make your stay memorable and relaxing. See what we have to offer.
Is it "Jackson" or "Jackson Hole"?
"Jackson" refers to the actual town of Jackson, which was incorporated in 1914. "Jackson Hole" refers to the entire valley area, including the communities of Wilson, Teton Village, Kelly, Moran, and Jackson.
The name references Davey Jackson, a beaver trapper of local fame, as well as a geologic feature called a hole, where the land continuously sinks due to plate tectonics. For many years, The Lexington's home was referred to as "Jackson's Hole" but, now, you'll notice the old apostrophe has been dropped. So, both terms are accurate, depending on whether you are discussing the town or the valley area.
The Lexington at Jackson Hole Hotel & Suites has a convenient, center-of-everything location in downtown Jackson, Wyoming. Located just 1.5 blocks Jackson's famous Town Square, guests are close to dining, shopping, entertainment, as well as wilderness adventures and outdoor recreation.
Get directions to The Lexington at Jackson Hole Hotel & Suites.
What airport should I fly into?
Jackson Hole Airport (JAC), located just 9 miles from the Lexington's front doors, provides daily flights via several commercial carriers. Some guests choose to fly into Idaho Falls (IDA), 2 hours away, or Salt Lake City (SLC), 5 hours away.
Can I rent a car or use a shuttle service?
Guests may utilize our free airport shuttle service. Call (307) 733-2648 for arrangements.
Available from 7am to 9pm.
Rental cars and taxis are available at the airport and in town as well.
Is there local public transportation?
Yes, the START bus system provides transportation throughout the town of Jackson and to Teton Village. There are 3 bus stops within 1 block of The Lexington. Bus rides on the town shuttle are FREE. Bus rides to Teton Village cost $3 each way.
Click to view conditions from the Jackson Hole Airport Webcam.
Call 307-733-2648 for the best rates. Click here to book online.
A deposit is collected at the time of reservation:
Multiple night stay: 50% of total reservation
Cancellation Policy
Reservations must be cancelled 72 hours before check in date for a full refund.
Within 72 hours, the deposit is forfeited.
Sales Tax – 6%
Resort Fee – 3.5%
Lodging Tax – 2%
Check In/Check Out Times
Check-in time is 3pm. Check-out time is 11am.
Other Policies
- Children 12 and under stay free in parent's room with existing bedding.
- Rollaway beds are available for a nightly charge of 15 USD.
- Cribs are available at no additional charge.
- Sorry, pets are not permitted.


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Nicks is def. the most physical WR we've had.....large majority of his plays are made in traffic with lots of contact. he's a playmaker for sure.
Coughlin soundbyte shows Dezz was right....there's something going on with him....
Like Jimmy Graham, Gronk, Megatron, Marshall, Damarius Thomas etc.....
That is why our red zone struggles continue.
And I love Nicks but Plaxico with his size and length had much better ability to use his physicality to gain position and catch a ball in coverage.
edit - ALL those guys you mentioned are much bigger than Nicks, whether in height or in just mass
We thought that maybe Barden might be when we drafted him but that didn't turn out well.
When we had Shockey and Plaxico, Eli had no problem throwing it into the endzone with those guys covered. Because they were physical and would make the plays.
We don't have THAT kind of guy right now. So our RZ woes continue.
Whats everyone doing for thanksgiving?? Give me stuffin and graaavy
Nicks was told that since he didn't practice during the week, he wasn't playing.
Some idiot reporter asked;
"Did Hakeem FIGHT YOU GUYS to stay in the lineup?"
TC said.."No, not really".
TC never used those words. It was a reporter trying to stir **** up and it worked on you guys.
The reality is that Nicks doesn't trust the Giants medical staff after last season and saw a doctor this week outside the team and TC got pissed.
I don't blame nicks one bit for his failure to trust them.


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|2013-02-10, 19:59
|Link #5181
Shall we?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe
After all the crap they've pulled up to this point, I more or less demand that they give us unique Gundams. 90% of all the "new" characters introduced look like carbon copies of the old cast already. If the suits are copies of the old ones, too, people will be pissed. Rightfully so. (though I guess it would be kinda hilarious)
I don't mind if the new suits pay homage to the old ones. But if Snow White turns out to be Wing Zero with different weapons and a slightly different paint job... well, let's just say I'm not reading the novel for its amazing story.
Talking about the story, I just read through the (horribly google translated) 20th chapter. From what I could make out, there's some dude called Bill Maxwell (or something along those lines; the Chinese pronunciation sounds like "beer Maxwell") who is a distant relative of Eric Shergold? I believe it says something about him being on L2 doing volunteer charity work, so there's reason to believe that man is Father Maxwell.
Also, Sabrina gave birth to her daughter when she was 17. Meaning she was at most about 16 when she married Eric.
...No wonder that second pic looks to me like the cover to some weird TreizexRelena lolicon doujin. It's called 'jail bait' for a reason, Sumizawa. >_>
|2013-02-10, 21:15
|Link #5182
Join Date: Jan 2010
|2013-02-11, 10:36
|Link #5183
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: refrigerator box
Now, if they're trying to say that Duo's real biological father was a dude named Bill Maxwell then... then... WOW! What a freackin' coincidence! I'd throw my arms up in the air and just accept the fact that Dekim Barton or some other Barton is Trowa's biological parent! Same goes for Heero, he probably really is a Yuy!
|2013-02-11, 12:13
|Link #5184
Shall we?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe
Spoiler for excerpt:
Sumizawa, you sly dog! You had this planned out 20 years beforehand!
And c'mon, Heero being a Yuy is a given. Probably even Heero Yuy, after his grandpa. This novel is not gonna end until it's revealed that Heero and Relena are cousins. I'm betting bottom dollar here!
|2013-02-12, 11:52
|Link #5185
Joseph Defense Squad
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mars
So, um, wait. James "Clerk" xD More Katrina/Katerina/Catherine(a) naming madness.
Lolicon and teen pregnancy. Scuse me; what.
I'm trying so hard not to laugh.
Every time I visit this thread, I
a) want to gouge my eyes out (thanks Eeni <3 )
b) cry
c) contemplate whether or not I should get a fringe cut again, because that's the only valuable thing that can come from a million, albeit pretty, but rather repetitive pics of Katrina, Sabrina, Relena, everyone else who looks exactly like them. I still can't tell who is who, nor do I want to.
And wth is this Sherwood forest? I missed the inclusion of Robin Hood? -sigh.
I, too, am waiting for the reveal that R&1 are cousins. Or long lost siblings. No, I can't put it past this Sumizawa character and his bong.
-____- sad times. This novel always leads to sad times.
|2013-02-12, 12:52
|Link #5186
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Chile
|2013-02-12, 19:39
|Link #5187
Shall we?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe
And yes, you read that right. Sabrina, whose official name now is "Katrina," named her daughter Katrina(/Katerina?) after her own sister Katrina. That currently makes ...7 Catherines or variants in total featured in this novel. Plus a hidden one, since James Clerk Maxwell (the real person) was married to a Catherine.
Special mention goes to Greek and Norse mythology (Prometheus/Phobos/Cyrene/etc. and Fenrir) and Casablanca ("Play it once, Sam"). Pretty sure I still missed a bunch.
Yu-Gi-Oh!, Digimon and Soul Eater may also qualify, seeing as there are loads of card game refs, a digital cat doubling as ZERO system and Katrina's partner and Mille supporting a battling Quatrine with his piano, which is more or less a direct rip from this.
And considering the a**pulls left and right, one might also list Alice in Wonderland. Or Lucy in the Sky of Diamonds. Actually, I think there was something about hatters and March hares mentioned in the Duo vs. Naina fight...?
But in all seriousness. Quess and Char doesn't really count, since it's a younger girl (cough 13??) crushing on an older man. It's not like Char had any interest in her (I hope, I haven't watched CCA). Younger folks being into older folks is okay, heck even normal (as long as they aren't old enough to be one's parent >_>).
Now, Riddhe and Mineva is not without misgivings, but a) he didn't get her and b) as far as the anime is concerned, his obsession with her came outta left field anyway. They spoke, what, three words to each other and he's already declaring his undying love for her? I haven't read the novels but I hope they do a better job there.
As for FT, I looked up everyone's ages; Heero is stated to be four years older than Katrina and Eric is 15 years older than Sabrina. Making Heero 19, Eric 30 and the Peacecraft twins 15 when they all first meet each other.
And here's where it begins to gross me out. Heero and Katrina I don't mind, since four years are laughable and Heero didn't hit on Katrina anyway. Even if Katrina wanted him to lol.
Eric on the other hand was instantly smitten with a teenager, going so far as to get Sabrina's entire freaking country out of its debt with his own money. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she even married him because of his money? She had the hots for Heero, too, after all. Anyway. Presented like this, Eric totally comes off as an ephebophile. I have a huge problem with that. I mean, imagine your teenage daughter telling you she's in love with a guy a few years younger than yourself. And she says that the guy loves her, too. Would you give them your blessings? Or would you punch the guy's face in?
Really, why Sumizawa has to go and make things sick is beyond me. Three years wouldn't have made a difference. :/
And yes, I know I'm reading way too much into this stupid thing, but... I teach kids that age. I'd hurl if I started to feel attracted to any of them (and I'm only in my mid-twenties).
Last edited by IkuzeMinna; 2013-02-12 at 20:05. Reason: grammar fail
|2013-02-12, 21:23
|Link #5188
Joseph Defense Squad
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mars
Scuse me. Going by Gundam (crack ^^) logic, this dude here:
Spoiler for big image:
is the only one who could legitimately walk in Char's, erm, more questionable footsteps. Just saying :P
Some random impregnating (!!!) Katrina Mk. 2390 is just a weird, creepy pedo, period. And the whole thing is just pretty repulsive, not comparable to Char at all- who last time I checked didn't impregnate the Quesses of this world.
The Riddhe and Mineva thing... is still nothing like this. I doubt he had plans for impregnation either.
So yeah, I'm with Ikuze, this whole business is gross.
Though it's the marriage and pregnancies I really draw the line at. Because, as a self respecting female, I am just nauseated by the thought.
@Ikuze: Thanks for te refresher. Some of this, I tried to forget very hard xD I don't even care anymore to figure out which Katrina they're speaking about at any given moment. It's just too ridiculous... you don't give two people in a novel the same name... LET ALONE MULTIPLES. Who also all look exactly alike. Who sanctioned that?
And yeah, there were Alice references what with Naina being the Queen of Hearts, or piloting one or whatever.
Next we learn that the real name of the Peacecrafts is Targaryen and Noin is a crazy horse barbarian.
<____< I don't even.
|2013-02-13, 06:29
|Link #5189
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Ok so I recently got PayPal and I'm considering buying the novels then scanning them to share the raws with everyone. However, if Zeonic Scanlations still intends to translate the novels, I wouldn't be opposed to just donating the money there. Is Zeonic Scanlations still planning to translate the novels?
|2013-02-13, 10:40
|Link #5190
Join Date: Jun 2011
Err. Am I the only one not bothered by the age difference between Eric and Sabrina? :\ It's not like their sort of relationship and union never happened in real life. So for that to come into fiction, even if it's Gundam Wing, I don't find it alarming at all. I mean, yeah, I get that it's not entirely acceptable in today's society, but then the GW world is different...
On a sidenote, the A Song of Ice and Fire series is full of that sort, and I could just imagine the cast of Gundam Wing in that world what with all that's happening.
Last edited by Mareike; 2013-02-13 at 11:20.
|2013-02-13, 20:06
|Link #5191
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: refrigerator box
I don't understand why Sumizawa would make Hilde so violent. She didn't come off as such in the anime. Sure, she put a gun to Duo's head, but she doesn't seem the kind of character that would have pulled the trigger. There was nothing violent about her. Now she's just that psycho girlfriend you don't want to be around... So, seeing all this abuse and violent nature, I guess Duo isn't such a douche bag for all that crap he did to her, he just didn't want the spousal abuse! Poor Duo, she really is a bully! I mean, she even gave him a name without consulting him about it!
And your welcomed SkullFaerie, I live to throw wrenches into working, complex machines ^_^
Last edited by Eeni; 2013-02-13 at 20:17.
|2013-02-13, 23:29
|Link #5192
Joseph Defense Squad
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mars
Why, people, don't look at me like that, we keep coming back to read this novel of pain, we're all clearly strange.
And I don't get the Hilde thing either. That excerpt alone is really off. But it's not as if everyone isn't acting comletely weird anyways, so it's not a surprise really :/
As for Katrina and her stint on teen mom season 15324... yeah, sure, age differences aren't weird in certain settings such as Thrones or anything up until, uhm, the 1900s upwards I guess.
But those are usually NOT happy unions. If you want to quote Daenerys or somesuch, come on. That was odd and very situational. And even then there are psychological concerns involved. That's hardly a happy love story.
These unions are usually arranged and make girls very unhappy.
Also, despite the 1850-1900 touch of GW, it's set in a modern, advanced society with modern gender roles and attitudes, thus the whole thing seems strange, sorry.
|2013-02-13, 23:58
|Link #5193
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Am I into it? No, but by no means is it something completely out of the realm of acceptiablilty or shocking.
This honestly is another case of something about the novel that is being made into something way bigger then it should be. I have several issues with it like most people, but given how other Gundam novels go this one isn't striking me as anything more offensive then what we get out of stuff like Unicorn.
For instance, Haman was 22 and fell in love with Judau at 14. The gap isnt' as big true, but still it's over half way to Eric and Sabrina age, and that is already to much for me and most people. Yet I don't remember the AGE being the big issue with Haman and Judau.
Last edited by FalsePrime; 2013-02-14 at 00:09.
|2013-02-14, 05:00
|Link #5194
Joseph Defense Squad
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mars
As in the above, Haman didn't marry and have kids with Judau- he didn't even return her affections. So that comparison falls completely flat.
Youger celebrities, or any people of age getting married to older men isn't an issue either.
16 year olds getting married to old guys and having their babies is what we're taking issue with.
Do you hear about that happening today? Sure- in unpleasant, illegal, forced marriage or poverty and lack of education or third world contexts.
How many happy, well-adjusted, independent and married teen moms with spouses much older than them do you know? Very few to none, I'd think.
It's odd. Then again, everything in this novel is odd, it's impossible to take seriously anymore, this is just one more weird thing.
Oh well...
|2013-02-14, 12:15
|Link #5195
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
As far as real couples? I know two that are married and have children together with age gap being 10 years for one and 12 for the other.
Again this isn't something I would ever want, and I do find it a tad odd. That said, I still think it happens far more often then what your making it out be.
|2013-02-14, 14:28
|Link #5196
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Chile
|2013-02-14, 15:12
|Link #5198
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
|2013-02-14, 20:28
|Link #5199
Shall we?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe
And do we ever get an explanation for either girls' "character development"? No siree! Sumizawa is too busy trolling us with flashbacks of people who aren't even in the present storyline.
You know, I had to reread the part of why those two married, because it's just stupid beyond belief:
Really, instead of marrying her, he could've just told her mommy that Hilde was being mean. Would've saved him some trouble.
Spoiler for old post:
My point is, Sumizawa could have made that point just as easily with Sabrina being 18.
You don't even need to look at other series for unusual marriages; Wu Fei and Mei Lan were both underage when they married. Treize fathered Mariemaia when he was 17. And FT aside (I'm not taking that convoluted mess into consideration), King Peacecraft looked as though he was a man well past his prime and considering Zechs' age and everything, I always assumed there was a respectable age difference between him and his wife. You don't see me throwing a hissy fit about any of those though.
The problem with Eric and Sabrina is, that although she was the one to propose (which makes sense, since she's a queen), Eric didn't have to go and immediately bed a minor, even if she was his wife. Never mind getting her pregnant. Heck, where I live that's considered felony. Rightfully so.
By the way, no one here is blowing this subject out of proportions. There simply isn't anything else we can talk about that hasn't been discussed five billion times already. There are no Gundams and no story that actually qualifies as a sequel, just flashbacks, flashbacks and more flashbacks of people most of us STOPPED CARING ABOUT 10 CHAPTERS AGO.
Content aside, I don't know what Sumizawa is thinking, but this approach works neither in a monthly publishing nor in a complete book. You want to tell a story that took place in the past? Do it in one go, don't spring bits of that crap every two chapters at us. I know I'm not the only he aggravates with it. But saying that Sumizawa is a piss-poor writer in that regard is preaching to the choir. It has been done already.
So, Eric the sicko it is (no matter how much Sumizawa tries to justify it by making Sabrina fall in love with him).
But I'm fairly surprised to say that the marriageable age in Japan is actually 20. 18 for males and 16 for females if you have the parental consent. What's a lot funnier is that the age in Denmark (where we all know Cinq is supposed to be), is 18. But there's something called "Kongebrev," which translates as "letter from the king [granting an exemption]" that allows you to marry at age 15.
I guess that means Sabrina wrote such a letter for herself when she proposed to Eric.
Last edited by IkuzeMinna; 2013-02-14 at 20:39.
|2013-02-15, 01:10
|Link #5200
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: refrigerator box
And I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but for once Sumizawa moved a plotline along. At least, as far as any plot so far is concerned, this marriage was actually an interesting side story. Kathrina/Sabrina/ThatTwin didn't want to marry Eric or even accept his money when first offered. As I remember, please correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm sure I am somewhere), he suggested marriage, she declined, he suggests to give her the money no strings attached, she still declines, and finally accepts to take his money when she was in a dire situation. I can't remember her reason for also accepting the marriage (probably as a thanks for the HUGE help), but she did and since Sumizawa hasn't told us what happened afterwards, I would guess that they lived a long life together.
How's that for flinging wrenches!?!?!?!?!?!
Has Duo accepted paternity over Jr. yet? Or is Sumizawa still "trying" to troll us here?
|gundam wing
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Best picture ever xD
Aku Soku Zan
P.S. I heard the anime would be having another season with these chapters basically put into episodes. Is it true?
man in 2 days it got from chapter 208 to chapter 221 lol this is going way too fast !
good job guys -- keep it up. Kenichi has been lifting my spirits these few days until I find a new manga to read. I love the commentaries -- I don't know why others complain. If you don't like them, just skip them. It's rather easy --- well, maybe not.
releases are going faster and faster
Chapter 230 is out on MangaFox !
Spoiler!Man Elder is insanely too strong LOL with only 0.0002% of his power he can cut a tree in half
234 latest chapters at onemanga
up to 256. i got the raws up to 311 which is the current one i think. it really is a good manga. interesting. and i just always loved fighting manga, but not really a weapon person. it was all put together nicely though. not incredibly realistic like say baki son of ogre, etc... but i still adore it
Where did you get raws up to 311 mate? I couldn't find more than 270 :(. I can read japanese but can't find raws. Damn makes me frustiated :(
I thought Berserker would return to help out. As of 261 glad to see Kenichi is fight much better. Lovingthe fast release too


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Togo, twice the size of Maryland, is on the south coast of West Africa bordering on Ghana to the west, Burkina Faso to the north, and Benin to the east. The Gulf of Guinea coastline, only 32 mi long (51 km), is low and sandy. The only port is at Lomé. The Togo hills traverse the central section.
Republic transitioning to multiparty democratic rule.
The Voltaic peoples and the Kwa were the earliest known inhabitants. The Ewe followed in the 14th century and the Ane in the 18th century. The Danish claimed the land in the 18th century, but by 1884 it was established as a German colony (Togoland). The area was split between the British and the French under League of Nations mandates after World War I and subsequently administered as UN trusteeships. The British portion voted for incorporation with Ghana. The French portion became Togo, which declared its independence on April 27, 1960.
Togo's first democratically elected president, Sylvano Olympius, was overthrown in 1963. He was shot and killed by Sgt. Etienne Eyadema while he attempted to scale the walls of the American Embassy to seek asylum. The government of Nicolas Grunitzky was overthrown in a bloodless coup on Jan. 13, 1967, led by Lt. Col. Etienne Eyadema (now called Gen. Gnassingbé Eyadema). A National Reconciliation Committee was set up to rule the country, but in April, Eyadema dissolved the committee and took over as president. He suspended the constitution, banned political parties, and created a cult of personality around his presidency; his official biography describes him as a "force of nature." Under pressure from the West, Eyadema legalized opposition parties in 1993, but the first multiparty presidential election in Aug. 1993 (which gave Eyadema more than 96% of the vote) was considered fraudulent, as was his 1998 reelection. In Feb. 2005, Eyadema died—he had been Africa's longest-serving ruler (38 years). A day after his death, the military installed his son, Faure Gnassingbe, to serve out his term. Gnassingbe took office on Feb. 7 amid strong international condemnation. Under internal and external pressure, Gnassingbe stepped down later that month and agreed to elections on April 24. Violent protests surrounded the elections, and these protests grew when the results were announced: Gnassingbe won 60% of the vote while main opposition candidate Bob Akitani received 38%. On May 4, Gnassingbe was sworn into office. In June, Gnassingbe appointed opposition leader Edem Kodjo as prime minister.


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If you have been denied SSD or SSI, you still have the right to make an appeal. In fact, you have the right to make several appeals, if necessary. While many applicants get approved based on their initial applications, many others receive benefits only after going through the appeals process, so don't give up.There are time limitations on every step in the appeals process. In general, if you disagree with a decision you will want to request the next level of appeal as soon as possible.
If you disagree with the initial determination regarding your eligibility for benefits or if the SSA changes your benefit amount and you disagree, you can appeal through reconsideration.
How: Request reconsideration by sending SSA a signed note with your Social Security number stating that you wish to appeal the decision. Or, complete Form SSA-561 (Request for Reconsideration) or Form SSA-789 (Disability Cessation Appeal).
When: Make the request within 60 days of the date you receive the written notice of initial determination. If you request reconsideration within 10 days, any payment being made to you will continue until a determination is made, provided your income and resources do not exceed SSA's limits.
Reconsideration will take approximately 90 days to complete.
If you disagree with the reconsideration determination, request a hearing before an ALJ. You may review your file, submit new evidence and present your own testimony at the hearing. The judge may also want you to have additional medical exams and tests completed.
Because these hearings are done in-person, it is important that you attend or you may lose your appeal rights and benefits. If you cannot make the hearing, contact the judge as soon as possible before the hearing and explain why.
How: Either write to the SSA and requesting an ALJ hearing or complete Form HA-501 (Request for Hearing).
When: Make the request within 60 days after you receive the notice of reconsideration.
AJL hearing will take approximately 530 days to complete.
If you disagree with the judge's decision, you may request an Appeals Council review but the Appeals Council will select which cases it wishes to hear. You may also submit new evidence here.
How: Either write to the SSA and requesting an Appeals Council review or complete Form HA-520 (Request for Review of Hearing Decision/Order).
When: Make the request within 60 days after you get the hearing decision.
Appeals council will take approximately 220 days to complete.
If you disagree with the Appeals Council, you may file a civil action with the U.S. District Court in your area.
The court will decide whether to overrule the SSA's decision by granting you benefits, or, more often, by remanding the case (sending it back) to the ALJ for reconsideration. The SSA will no longer be able to help you at this level.
Federal court will take approximately 540 days to complete.
All necessary forms can be found at the SSA's website.
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The information provided on the PHA website is provided for general information only. It is not intended as legal, medical or other professional advice, and should not be relied upon as a substitute for consultations with qualified professionals who are familiar with your individual needs. PHA does not endorse or recommend any commercial products or services.
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Psalms for All Ages is a series of seminars to equip pastors, worship leaders and key lay people in planning and leading worship services that minister to congregation members of all ages. Join us for one seminar or more!
This 3-part series will generate a much-needed opportunity to discuss, examine, and learn about inter-generational worship, for the benefit of local churches from a variety of denominations and ethic backgrounds. Through the study of different types of Psalms, we hope to expand the congregation's repertoire in corporate worship.
FEBRUARY 22 (Part 2 of a 3-part series) *note PUBLIC LECTURE on Feb. 21 7:30 p.m. with Frank C. Senn "Liturgy and Spiritual Formation". Lecture will be held at Oakridge Lutheran Church 585 W 41st Ave, Vancouver
Keynote Speaker & Workshop A: Frank C. Senn
Lecture 1: The Psalter: A Songbook for all Generations
This lecture will discuss the Book of Psalms as the hymnal of ancient Israel, the songs sung by Jesus, and the use of the Psalter in the history of the Christian Church. It will raise the concern of psalms being banished from contemporary Christian worship by the overuse of hymns and spiritual songs. It will propose that the psalms can be used to bridge the gap between those favoring traditional hymns and those desiring contemporary worship songs and can also be used as a tool to engage all generations in singing the word of God. Pastor Senn will describe various ways in which the psalms are being sung today.
Lecture 2: Psalms and Processions: Worship in Motion for all Ages
This lecture will propose that our worship has become too stationary and that it fails to engage us bodily because we have become too dependent on printed material or projection screens. It will describe worship in the ancient church as being 'in-motion' as the congregation moved from place to place singing psalms and litanies. Processions, like parades, can engage us bodily and involve all ages in full, active, conscious participation. Pastor Senn will describe some occasions in the church year for which processions while singing psalms are appropriate and also moments in worship services that call for movement of people.
About the Keynote Speaker, Frank C. Senn
Frank C. Senn is a renowned American Lutheran pastor and liturgist, currently Adjunct Professor of the History of Liturgy at Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary. He recently retired from pastoral ministry, having served 23 years as Pastor of Immanuel Lutheran Church, Evanston, Illinois. He has served as president of both The Liturgical Conference and the North American Academy of Liturgy and was formerly a professor of liturgics at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago. He is author of many books, including Christian Liturgy: Catholic and Evangelical (1997), New Creation: A Liturgical Worldview (2000), The People's Work: A Social History of the Liturgy (2006) and Introduction to Christian Liturgy (2012). Dr. Senn holds B.A. in music from Hartwick College, M.Div. from Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago, and Ph.D. in Liturgical Studies from University of Notre Dame.
WORKSHOPS: Participants will be able to select workshop options upon arrival
Workshop A: Ways of Singing the Psalms Frank C. Senn
In this workshop, the following chant traditions will be demonstrated, including Gregorian (simple plainsong), Anglican, metrical psalmody old (Genevan Psalter) and new (the new Presbyterian Hymnal has just come off the press), Gelineau (popularized by Taize), Lutheran psalm tones (Lutheran Book of Worship and Evangelical Lutheran Worship), and Roman Catholic responsorial psalmody.
Workshop B: Integrating People with Differing Abilities into our Worship Services Rev. David D. Hayward
In this workshop, issues related to integrating people with disabilities into our churches will be examined. We will also probe the theological and Biblical call of hospitality. Practical ideas to enrich our worship experiences will also be offered.
About this workshop presenter:
David D. Hayward grew up in India with Canadian Baptist missionaries parents serving in an aboriginal tribe. While on furlough, his parents were unexpectedly stranded in Canada. Then his father stated a Sunday school with some young adults who had mental and physical disabilities and that had grown into a church called Joy Fellowship. Many of these folks had grown up in church, but had not found the environment very friendly as they grew up. His father's vision was to provide a place where they and people like them could find a warm welcome, appropriate Bible teaching and discipleship training, and places to practice serving others. After working as elementary school teacher in Vancouver for 10 years, after his parents retired, David became an associate pastor and has been serving Joy Fellowship for almost 20 years. David holds a BA in Western Canadian History and Asian Studies from UBC and an MDiv degree from Regent College, Vancouver.
DATESSaturday Feb. 22 (early bird deadline Feb 1, 2014) Saturday May 3 (early bird deadline Apr 12, 2014)
* This program is made possible through a worship renewal grant from the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, Grand Rapids, Michigan, with funds provided by Lilly Endowment Inc.


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Room with TV + Internet (ME6)
מספר אנשים מקסימלי2
חדרי שינה1
גודל17 מטר רבוע
Floor No.
- מטבח
- מכונת כביסה / מייבש
- ארוחת בוקר
- חדר הניתן לנעילה
- אינטרנט/ אינטרנט אלחוטי
- טלויזיה
- מגבות
Accommodation summary
|B Mile End Road, E1 4UN London, בריטניה
|סוג נכס
|חדר פרטי
|פרטי הזיהוי של מקום הלינה
|Acceptance rate
|Response time
|A few hours
|Calendar updated
The spacious room containing a comfortable double bed and closet space is colourfully-decorated to present guests with a homelike atmosphere. A well-equipped kitchen is available to guests as well as a bathroom.
The historic Tower of London is just a 15-minute distance on the London Tube. Built near to the site of the original theatre, Shakespeare's Globe Theatre is 25 minutes' away using London Tube.
Guests are a short distance from Stratford where they will find an international train station, the Olympic Park and the Westfield Stratford City Shopping Centre, one of the largest urban shopping centres in Europe.
כללי הביתBed linen and towels are provided.
A clean-as-you-go policy is required by all guests.
Please treat the apartment as you would your own home.
|Check-in before
|עזיבה לפני
|מדיניות ביטולים
Great location, near the undergraund station!difficult to take the keys.Fortunately we were helped by a young couple who were in our apartment.windows little insulation from the cold and a lot of noise coming into the room. wi fi free.Clean. all in all a good apartment for those who have many needs and a budget...
The room Kaz rented us was, simply put, amazing. We found everything as told, the directions were correct and easy to understand and the way into the city was impeccable. We were able to cook and store our food in the kitchen by the apartment, which made our stay cheaper, the kitchen is in good use and clean(for english standards at least), so was the bathroom and the actual bedroom we were staying in. The only thing that can be concerning, if not used to it, is the noise which is quite loud at night, since you are placed at a street, but living in a city like London, what is there to expect differently? You can reach every location in the city quite easy with the tube and getting to the apartment was easy - even with suitcases. We didn't personally meet Kaz, but we were left keys to the apartment and our room, the wifi code and everything you might need. If ever going back to London, I will definitely consider booking a room there again.
Room is big and clean. Apartment is very nice. Across the street is shop. Underground station is 5 minutes away. I would recommend it to anyone.
Overall we had a great time in London. These rooms are perfect for a short city trip where you are on the move during the day and just need a shower, a bed and a lockable room in the evening.
The cleanness was ok, of course not hotel-standard, but for this price absolutely fine. The bins where emptied daily.
Nevertheless, some things could have been better:
For example, the toilet paper was empty on our third day. We had to take care of that by ourselves.
Furthermore, in the reservation it said that breakfast is included, but unfortunately we only found some cornflakes in the kitchen, no milk. In our opinion at least some milk belongs to a normal breakfast - how should we eat the cornflakes without it?
But since there is a supermarket right across the street, these facts where not so bad.
Of course the rooms are quite worn. There missed a castor on one of our two chairs, for example. By improving these little things, it would become a way better stay.
But all in all, a good and cheap alternative to the expensive hotels and overcrowded hostels in London.
- הבטחת איכות מקומות הלינה
- כל מארח מאושר טלפונית
- תשלום מאובטח


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Well, buy cashmere if you want someting warm and luxurious and budget is not an issue. Or maybe try a couple of John Smedley, cotton for summer/spring, merinos wool for winter.
Is there no consensus on this? Some are saying only cashmere, others are saying 'sea island' cotton and others 'merino wool'. I am very sure I want long-sleeve v-necks, so which online outlet can I find good oens at a good price? It is not my intention to wear them under sports jackets (it's just not my style; if I'm wearing a sports jacket I'll not wear a jumper).


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Sugar Land is located in Texas.
Sugar Land, Texas has a population of
Sugar Land is
family-centric than the surrounding county with
41.53% of the households
containing married families with children.
The county average for households married with children is 45.43%.
The median household income in Sugar Land, Texas is
The median household income for the surrounding county is $84,211
compared to the national median of $53,046.
The median age of people living in Sugar Land is
40.7 years.
The average high temperature in July is 94
degrees, with an average low temperature in January of 42 degrees.
The average rainfall is approximately 46.6 inches
per year, with 0.1 inches of snow per year.
Real Living Karapasha Realty
21306-A Provincial Boulevard
Katy, TX
Real Estate Agents & Staff
Beth Wolff REALTORS® Real Living
1775 St. James Place, Suite 100
Houston, TX
Real Estate Agents & Staff
Real Living The Hatmaker Group
1021 61st Street, Suite 100-B
Galveston, TX
Real Estate Agents & Staff


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Schilling posted 7/16/2013 14:51 PM
This past month I started to confront my own childhood abuse in therapy for the very first time.
Shortly after I confessed what happened to me in IC, my partner in a drunken state confessed his own childhood sexual abuse.
It didn't surprise me based on his many issues as an adult.
But, I can't bring myself to tell him about my own experiences. Because.. I don't trust him. He wouldn't do anything malicious with the information, it might shock him, but.. I just don't trust him because of the many times he has cheated.
I want to tell him, but I can't bring myself to do it.
nealos posted 7/18/2013 09:14 AM
FR2012: I came to realize that I was sexually abused as a kid only because my ex-fiancee pointed it out to me. I am a wayward, and a sex addict in recovery. A little more than a year ago I was in the car driving with my then-fiancee after she discovered my infidelity, and I was giving her an inventory of everyone I've ever been sexual with. For no other reason than to desperately provide her with more information, I told her about my brother and me being sexual when I was 7-8 yo. I really didn't think it was relevant, but only threw it out there because I was grasping for straws. She then pointed out to me that my first sexual experience was with my older brother-- suggesting that was the beginning of a confusing and shameful relationship with my sexuality. I later began to think of that experience as abuse.
For the record I don't blame my infidelity on my abuse. I think it contributed to me having fewer healthy choices as an adult, but it isn't a prudent excuse.
Our experiences are probably different-- my abuse experience was locked away in denied. Even when it came out, I have tried not to allow myself to feel like a victim. What comforts me is knowing that my abuser was sick/confused/scared. People who sexually abuse others were probably abused themselves. I feel sorry for my brother. I don't know where he learned to be sexual, but I would guess he was abused by someone and shown incorrectly what sex was... then he passed it on to me. I try to empathize with my abuser, and that has helped me to accept it for what it is: very very unfortunate, and very very sad.
My mission is to break the cycle. I won't pass on emotionally-detached communication to my kids, and I certainly won't teach them that sex is a confusing & shameful thing meant to be secretive. This is a significant part why I'm in recovery.
Duffy1958 posted 7/22/2013 01:38 AM
Schilling, maybe 10 years enough to spend on a relationship you can't trust. It isn't always necessary to tell your S/O but you would at least like to be able to. Strength for you my friend & a hope for you to find your self worth. You are worth more than a 10 year serial cheater.
Nealous, I applaud your reasons for recovery. Our children are a good reason not to do a lot of things & good reason to make better choices. Good job, loving your kids.
Being a child sexual abuse survivor has so many repercussions! I have PTSD & it makes a huge difference.
I haven't had problems with my self esteem so much as, the residual effects of CSA. It IS like a banner on your forehead, predators notice this stuff. They look for it. By predators, I mean spouses or S/O looking for a
I have become aware of the banner & actively work to change the outward message. So I'm cordial upon meeting ppl. Not so friendly anymore. I like it better. I wear black (I mean business) a lot. Not morbidly so. My hair is not as blonde as it use to be. Dateline has even done a study, in ppl take brunettes more seriously. I'm sure there are other changes. Being aware of your surroundings is a big thing.
These are just my "things" I have done to help myself. It carries over into dealing with my husband. I can 180 good because it's how I usually live my life with people.
PhantomLimb posted 8/6/2013 00:46 AM
This might sound odd-- but I'm looking for some insight as to whether or not my last sexual experience with my WS was an assault or not. I'm going to try not to get too graphic, but I have to explain some stuff to get your opinion.
Background is that I was date raped back in college and after my last sexual encounter with my WS, I had something of a psychosomatic recollection of that rape and it's been tough for me to sort out.
As for the thing with my WS: it was shortly before DDay and I hadn't seen him in about 8 weeks. We did our usual thing but I felt like he was a little rough during. In my mind I thought that he was out of practice and because he works out a lot, I likened it to him "doing reps" on me. He was also pulling my hair a little, which he had never done before. I didn't say anything about it at the time thinking that after so many weeks apart and male egos being what they are, to suggest that he was majorly sucking didn't seem kind. I figured I was moving back home in a couple of weeks and we'd get back into a groove. No big deal.
He suddenly got incredibly sweaty-- to the point that I had to ask him to go towel off or hop in the shower. He came back out and, per usual when we've been apart, we prepared to go again. Usually on round 2 I would get into doggy style because I know he likes it (although it doesn't do much for me-- so it's usually something I do after I'm all set, if you know what I mean).
This is where it got weird. He couldn't really get it in, but he just kept shoving it really hard. I was trying to use my fingers to guide it, but he wasn't even waiting for me... he just kept forcing it. He got it in and started going really hard and he grabbed the back of my head by making a fist with his hand in my hair (he had never done that before). He just kept going and I was trying to bear it. It was definitely one of those experiences where you just want him to hurry up. He was so violent with it that he fell out a couple of times and did the same thing-- tried to force it in again. Finally I just asked him if he was at all close. He said no. I told him I couldn't do it anymore.
He laid down and I tried to do oral, but he started to lose it. I asked him what the problem was (I had never seen him fail at a second round before). He just said the second time was a crap shoot sometimes. I was just glad it was over, so I stopped. We were late for a lunch date, so we got dressed and that was that.
I bled for three days after that and was still uncomfortable/in pain for at least a week after.
A few days later I was out with a friend who asked me how his visit was. I paused and said "good... it was great to see him." I paused again. And then I started venting about how the sex was awful and I didn't understand what was wrong. My friend encouraged me to talk to him about it. I agreed that we needed to talk if the next time was just as awful.
DDay was a few days later (over Skype). A lot of those conversations are foggy because of the shock, but when he told me, one of the first things I remember saying was "Oh, Jesus, please don't let that be the last time we have sex. Don't let that be the way I remember you!" I asked him why he was so rough with me. He told me that, he didn't want to go into too many details, but that's the way the OW likes it (hair pulling, etc). So I guess he just tried that shit out on me? If that's what they're doing together, more power to them!
I told him that I didn't want to use the "R" word with him-- but that I think I could consider what he did to me, now that I understood the context wasn't his lack of practice, was assault. He was just silent.
So I don't know how to think of this. Did he assault me or was he just trying out his new rough play that he likes with his OW?
I hate that I'm carrying this around.
[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 12:50 AM, August 6th (Tuesday)]
AppleBlossom posted 8/17/2013 07:37 AM
Hey Phantom Limb. That sounds like quite a traumatic experience - all of it.
It doesnt matter what your husband was doing, what is really important is how it made you feel. When you are making love with someone, there is a level of trust, no matter what the relationship. If the role and the method becomes something else then it is really important that you both consent to that. If you did not consent to that and you felt violated in some way, you were assaulted. As an abuse survivor myself, I spent most of my adult life trying to minimise the actions against me, but in the end the only way I could recover was to acknowledge what it was.
Not only did this act make you uncomfortable, but apparently it was borne out of some act that he had performed with someone outside the marriage.
I think there are two aspects to this - the physical betrayal and the assault.
How are you coping at the moment?
silverhopes posted 8/19/2013 03:55 AM
AppleBlossom said it. It sounds like a very difficult thing you're carrying, PhantomLimb. Please keep talking about it, we're here for you.
There's something bothering me tonight and I needed somewhere to talk about it. This might sound kinda dumb, I've been watching the Buffy and Angel series recently and reading some online discourses about it. Read articles on a particular character who has been thought to sexually shame his fellow female characters. It brought up a lot of odd thoughts I hadn't known were in here. I feel overexposed. Everything that's not covered up, emotionally or physically, feels like I'm "asking" for inappropriate attention or commentary from people, or any little slip in behavior merits criticism. Not sure why this hyperawareness is going on. I can hear the voices of some of the people in my family in my head. I don't like it. I don't know how to make them stop talking.
Does anyone else ever struggle with conflicted feelings of questioning what's appropriate and proper? Sometimes feelings of being less?
One of the critiques of this particular character was his sense of entitlement. He'd had a crush on one of the other characters, but she didn't return his feelings, so he made commentary on every romantic and sexual choice she made, rather than respecting that it was her and her partners' business. It made me aware of so many boundaries. How much can I really judge what my partner does and doesn't do? More acceptance. Fewer judgements. I was judging him for so long because of things he'd done in the past - not because he'd done them, but because he wouldn't do them with me. Where do I get off feeling entitled to those things? It's comfort I might be looking for, but that comes from within. I have no right to ask that of him, especially if it's something he doesn't feel comfortable doing. No entitlement allowed. I have my own insecurities, wondering if I'm tainted and fighting that - but he's not my bandaid. Intimacy is beautiful. It's still growing. It's not to be demanded.
Just sharing thoughts, still forming what healthy intimacy looks like to me. I think it ties a lot into being a survivor of sexual abuse. Because someone else crossed my boundaries and told me what was expected, what I was and wasn't allowed to say no to. Or shamed me when I said stop. People in my family. That twists things. I have had trouble sometimes with nursing my son, and it's torn because on the one hand it's nurturing him and it's bonding, and on the other I feel deeply uncomfortable as certain feelings come up, mostly with feelings of invasion and feelings/fears that it's dirty. Not sure how to navigate those boundaries. But it was something important for my son, something I'd learned about and believe in. But it's so complicated, and it's one of the things my family and friends have made the most off-hand comments about: "When do you plan on weaning him?" (happening right now). "That child must be constantly on the boob!" "Just don't be nursing him when he's five, haha!" It feels weird that people can make such blatant commentaries on it to my face, but I know it's not meant to be invasive. Just... complicated with the other issues surrounding abuse. The comments feel invasive, even though that's probably not anyone's intentions.
Thank you for letting me ramble. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:59 AM, August 19th (Monday)]
jjct posted 8/27/2013 06:32 AM
Hi everybody!
I've never posted in here, but I'm in a NB with *one of you* - that is, a survivor of SAB, and I've recently started reading in here & other places for insight. I've also scheduled IC for myself to go over some of my findings, and to acquire tools to try to have THE BEST RELATIONSHIP EVAH despite the SAB and its inevitable issues.
No question I got to "fix my picker".
I have seen some patterns I'd like to point out & see if they resonate.
It seems to me that "feelings of being less" are common. I might go so far as to say predictable and inevitable. (I'll let you guys guide me here)
By its very nature, is not SAB *just that message* imprinted traumatically in a young, not-fully-formed mind?
Thus, self-esteem suffers, and issues relating to it surface later - issues you all are so bravely working on. I'm in awe of that. You are all so kind and helpful!
So, common denominator #1 - feelings of being less, and its attendant older sibling, shame.
Could it be helpful to release shame's shackles on your heart if you knew it arose from that abusive "imprinting of being less"?
How many times have you been told; "You didn't deserve that. You have nothing to be ashamed of."...and still it sits there, like some nail in your soul?
I'm trying to forge a prybar, to pull that bitchnail out!
Common denominator #2 -
"I feel overexposed."
Thinking about it, I think, How can fear not be imprinted?
Fear's inevitable result(s) include:
- not being able to trust, or at least, let's face it, sometimes it wise not to trust, hah!, why we're here in the first place...but
- having "trust issues". Common? I think so...ties into the future-forming of healthy bonds (interesting word, right?) and boundaries.
- Do you feel sometimes you're in an emotional fetal position? Garden-variety A damage leads to this for sure, but I think it's magnified to incredible proportions with SAB survival.
Common denominator #3 -
It could arise from fear, (pretty natural) but I think if it does, it becomes an underlying theme, an undealt-with hum that permeates too many interactions and relationships. Why? Because it's arising from fear, and fear is the triage point, the originator and cause of that particular type of anger. That seems to be why it's "not doing anything for you", not helping, not resolving, not going forward. It's. Just. There.
The other kind of anger is healthy anger, based on what really happened, and owning the righteous rage of; "I didn't deserve this dammit" and getting away - to safety.
It's the anger that moves you to a healthier place, a safer place. It's the anger that puts its boots on,
kicks ass, and walks away from the toxic.
It's good for you, and the other benefit is, you don't have to hold on to it once you're in that "safe place".
Gosh this was long. I think I might've broke the internets.
20WrongsVs1 posted 8/27/2013 08:49 AM
Because someone else crossed my boundaries and told me what was expected, what I was and wasn't allowed to say no to.
Just wanted to say ICR. Took me 20 years (well, 35 from the CSA events, 23 from when I remembered them) to finally get into IC and deal with this damage.
Now post-DDay, I am faced with this: have I ever had a clue of what healthy intimacy looks like? Looking back, signs point to "no."
If you feel uncomfortable or angered when people comment about your nursing, those feelings are valid. If it were a family member I might say, as gently and blame-neutral as I could, "Nursing isn't always easy for me, so I'm sensitive about that topic. When you just said that, I felt uncomfortable."
20WrongsVs1 posted 8/27/2013 09:07 AM
Gently, are you looking for a girlfriend or a fixer-upper? Forging a prybar? Only she can pull that nail out, and only when she's ready.
Are you seeking a better understanding of this woman--like studying Portuguese for an extended trip to Brazil? Or, are you hoping to help her overcome her damage?
Not intending to criticize, just observing and asking questions that are yours to answer (or disregard) for yourself...since you said you need to fix your picker.
jjct posted 8/27/2013 09:33 AM
Seeking a better understanding.
For the purpose of helping her.
Even if it's only just "being there" for her.
So, when I see things, hear things, it doesn't confuse me, so I will know what basic common denominator xyzee thing is coming from at its source.
I will explore the fixer-upper question in IC, because my heart is really being attracted, and I do want to make sure I'm making healthy choices - not knee-jerk or old patterns.
It honestly doesn't feel like it though. I think of her like any one of us, willing to work on things. She does not seem *that broken*...
The prybar.
If I gain insight and understanding (knowledge is power), they are tools for me to wield for my own peace and understanding.
I can hand them to her, knowing she's the one to have to use them.
I can't do it for her.
I been to that town.
No thanks.
Thanks for the questions.
I've learned if some of them make me uncomfortable, there's a reason for that.
I know I don't want to hear that SAB cannot be overcome (like some PD's)...
...but if that's the case, I need to hear it. Please tell me that's not the case...
20WrongsVs1 posted 8/27/2013 09:51 AM
She does not seem *that broken*
Pre-DDay, my BH said the same
jjct, this ICR thread is obviously not popular, despite all the CSA survivors (W and B) on SI. Could be awhile, if ever, before anyone wiser comments.
I just stepped onto the healing path a couple months ago, but I say hell yes CSA damage can be overcome. If the survivor is ready and willing, and she takes the initiative.
So, when I read this I cringed a little.
I can hand them to her, knowing she's the one to have to use them
At the risk of nit-picking semantics: she doesn't have to use them. What if you hand them to her and she drops them? Will that be OK with you?
More questions for you to take to your C...or not. Consider the source (barely-former, recently-deeply-delusional WW) and take it FWIW
Best of luck on your NB journey.
jjct posted 8/27/2013 13:18 PM
That is kind of you - no worries.
I have to let go if she doesn't use the tools.
I am trying to be sanguine (and slow) about it, but I can't imagine feeling safe with her if she didn't...
Edith posted 8/29/2013 10:38 AM
Hi everyone, I am also a survivor of extreme SAB as a child. My mother forced me to go to bed with my drunk father, starting at age 6. Over the years, I have done IC to try and patch up the damage, which was significant, though I hate to think of myself as damaged. Battle scars maybe.
For FR2012, I found that in my early to mid 30s, I was able to finally start to confront what had happened in my childhood. It was like a switch flipped in me that could never be turned off. I knew what they had done to me. I was angry and thought they should have gone to jail. Of course, they lived out their years with respectable silence from my other sibs. Good citizens and all that.
I moved to another state a few years after my confrontation. My sibs all are experts in denial and attacked me relentlessly for my accusations, even though they were all victimized as well. The beatings made my brothers "stronger," my sister claimed our dad just wanted to "cuddle." Cuddle is an obscenity to me now.
After my dad passed some years back, I was really able to build up my healthy rage. I have struggled with my responsibilities as a daughter to my mother, though. IC advised me not to contact them, but they always seem to reach out to me, usually in an hour of need. Which brings me to the current issue.
My mother is ill, has had surgery and hospitalized for almost 2 weeks. I have made arrangements to travel there to visit with her and help out for a few days, which I can feel the anxiety building. She lives in the same house of my childhood. I have a hotel and a rental car in case I need to make a quick escape, but the nightmares are back and this is causing me a good deal of distress.
How do you balance family responsibilities with what they have done? This is probably the last time I will see my mother alive. I'm not sure how I will feel when she is gone, but I don't want to feel guilty for not having been there, at least to a very limited extent.
I very much appreciate anyone's opinion.
caspers1wish posted 8/29/2013 11:41 AM
I think that you have a good grasp of what your SO seems to be going through, and I think it will be helpful for her knowing you want to understand her, as well as it being a great peace of mind for your own sanity to go in with eyes wide open.
Absolutely survivors constantly deal with low self-esteem issues, crippling shame, fear (over things as simple as fear of the dark, to major things like fear of abandonment, feeling hopeless and powerless), not being able to trust, and intense anger.
For me, anger came out at everyone over the smallest of infractions. It didn't really come from fear, although I'm sure there were elements about it (it is maddening to be fearful about things I think I shouldn't be), but it was more anger at myself. Tied in with low self esteem and shame, there was intense self-hate. For not fighting back, for not telling anyone, for not being protected, for feeling responsible for how long the abuse went on, to thinking of how cowardly I was, for not being able to just be ok once I was on my own and away from the abuse. For me, I couldn't do anything right, and I hated myself for it.
All that hate gets focused inward and it's very destructive. It takes a while for the survivor to place the blame and anger at the feet of the perpetrators and enablers of the abuse. Because there is a lot of guilt associated with viewing your parents or loved ones as less than, when they were really less than quality people.
I know I don't want to hear that SAB cannot be overcome (like some PD's)...
...but if that's the case, I need to hear it. Please tell me that's not the case...
I do think SAB can be overcome and it takes time. I still have issues trusting and struggle with intimacy with my partner. I still struggle with shame and fear and anger, but to such a lesser degree that it no longer interferes with my everyday life and self view. The death grip of being SAB no longer has the same choke hold on me as it once did. I can breathe, I can smile, I can relax, feel peaceful, and it feel authentic, not a facade to make everyone believe I'm ok, but really feel ok deep inside. I can even still feel less than at times, and know that I need to just give myself a break. The lows are never as low as they used to be. I've accepted what happened, what I felt during, and after, and forgive myself. My abuser can rot in hell, and I forgive myself for not forgiving him.
caspers1wish posted 8/29/2013 11:53 AM
I know that it is very painful to let go of your parents. I thought I could hold on until my dad died so that I could reach out to my mom and repair that relationship. I came to realization that that waiting was doing a lot of damage to myself. That holding on to the hope that they were someday going to finally come through for me, it was draining.
I wrote my mother this past spring and severed that relationship forever, and it has honestly brought me an even greater level of peace. I've let go on my terms.
I'm so sorry you have to go back to your childhood home where the abuse occurred. I think that if you feel the need to be there while she is ailing, even in a limited capacity, then you are doing what's right for you. If you get there, and it is too much, let yourself acknowledge it, unacknowledged, the anxiety will build. Know your limits. I think it's great you have a safe place you can retreat to if you need to. Don't feel beholden to explain yourself.
I wish I had better words of wisdom for you.
Edith posted 8/29/2013 12:43 PM
Thank you C1W. I was probably about your age when I severed the relationship with my entire FOO in what I thought was a final letter. Of course, over the subsequent years, my mother reached out to me and literally begged me to speak to her.
I was then called upon whenever there was a family crisis, my brother had cancer and they needed my help. I have always been the one to help, despite my being an outcast. My father's funeral was a circus, I was the target of such unbelievable hatefulness. I suppose it was fitting and has helped me cope with my childhood memories. I have allowed myself righteous fury.
So I suppose I have to suck it up, take a deep breath and get on that plane.
Most of my life the rage was focused inward. After his death, I have permitted myself to feel the rage toward the rightful owner(s). But now I have to pretend all is well and let my mother have the peace she has stolen from me.
caspers1wish posted 8/29/2013 13:18 PM
I don't think you should feel obligated to pretend or sacrifice yourself to anyone if it's not in your best interest and is not what you want. Only you know and only you can decide the best course of action. I'm really sorry you are having to struggle with this decision.
silverhopes posted 8/29/2013 17:03 PM
If you feel uncomfortable or angered when people comment about your nursing, those feelings are valid. If it were a family member I might say, as gently and blame-neutral as I could, "Nursing isn't always easy for me, so I'm sensitive about that topic. When you just said that, I felt uncomfortable."
Thank you, 20v. It would feel a lot better to set boundaries with them. Maybe I could say something like that. I feel unbelievably vulnerable admitting I'm sensitive or uncomfortable (I am, it's just so strange how I suddenly felt when I thought about saying it)... It's strange to note it. This might be something for me to explore further.
Could it be helpful to release shame's shackles on your heart if you knew it arose from that abusive "imprinting of being less"?
It would be, but part of the problem is that I am still around some of the people who crossed my boundaries. Some of them were family members. So a goal I have is that one by one, I am slowly cutting ties and "escaping" from the people who make me feel so uncomfortable. With each person I get away from, it's easier to release the shame back to them. Easier to push them away. But some of them are still around. It's complicated. But your suggestion makes sense.
Do you feel sometimes you're in an emotional fetal position?
Yes, constantly. I'm in the process of imagining a person who is stronger and not vulnerable, and who can effectively get away from uncomfortable people. Right now I'm trying to learn the new habits to support this. One is getting out of the house more often, taking my son to the playground (and standing back as he plays and learns with the other kids), and being a very active mother. Believe it or not, even that was hard and a struggle for a long time, but it's finally becoming a habit. It helps me feel more like an adult to throw myself as hard as possible into my role as a mother. To remind myself that I'm not the child who got abused anymore, I'm the mother who is giving my child a happy, safe childhood. And of course, it's healthier for my son. Motherhood represents strength and caring and protection and trust in your children.
20WrongsVs1 posted 8/30/2013 11:19 AM
Take care of yourself. It was your mother's job to take care of you when you were 6 (my DD's age now). She chose to maliciously hurt you instead, and inflict a lifetime of pain.
But now I have to pretend all is well and let my mother have the peace she has stolen from me.
FTN. The hell you do! You're not a 6-year-old girl with no choices. Your mother begged to speak to you, but has she ever apologized? Or even acknowledge what she did?
You couldn't choose your family when you were six, bless your heart, but you can now. Detach. 180 and NC your entire family, for good this time...unless you feel you have something to gain from it.
You didn't deserve what happened to you, and you sure as hell don't deserve to be hated by your siblings. Nor do you owe your mom a damn thing. I'm gonna quit now before I get any further incensed.
Just, bless you, Edith, I hope you will put your own "peace" first: once and for all.
unfound posted 8/30/2013 17:06 PM
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Showing 1-11 of 11 items found in History
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This mural honors the late Fey Orr, a prominent local businessman and philanthropist. The mural is painted on the Chebanse Grain & Lumber Co. building, and depicts the people and lifestyle of Beaverville.
The Kankakee County Museum is the home of the Kankakee County Historical Society. Founded in 1906, it is the oldest incorporated local historical society in Illinois. The Main Museum Building contains seven permanent and temporary exhibit galleries, the Museum Store, the Museum's Archival Research Library, the Museum's offices, and support facilities. The Museum Complex also encompasses the historic 1855 Dr. A. L. Small House, the 1904 Taylor One-Room Schoolhouse, Column Garden and Outdoor Exhibit Area. The museum boasts more than 85,000 artifacts in addition to 20,000 still images in the photo collection.
Check out this pioneer cabin that gives a glimpse of Illinois' earliest settlers' way of life on the frontier. It is located in a majestic park setting along the Kankakee River.
Depicting everyday life in the late 1880's, this 1869 home features period furnishings throughout. It originally served as a private residence. The Momence Women's Club was instrumental in preserving this lovely house museum. The home is maintained by the City of Momence. The arbor and gardens were created by the Momence High School Shop Class and Main Street Momence.
Kankakee Model Railroad Club and Museum
See large operating model train displays and railroad memorabilia within Kankakee's restored train depot. The museum also features a scale model replicating the city of Kankakee during the 1950's. A restored rail car and trolley can be rented for special events.
Essex Historical Society Museum
This historical site features a one-room schoolhouse and historical artifacts contained in an adjacent brick building. Learn about area strip mines that date back to the 1900's. This Kankakee museum is open by appointment and during special events.
Frank Lloyd Wright's B. Harley Bradley House
The B. Harley Bradley House Designed by Frank Lloyd Wright in 1900 The B. Harley Bradley House in Kankakee, Illinois, is widely acknowledged as Wright's first Prairie Style design. It is listed on the National Register of Historic Places individually and as part of the Riverview Historic District. Following an extensive restoration, the Bradley House now enjoys the opportunity to be appreciated by architecture fans from around the world. This Prairie Style house was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright along with its neighboring home. The houses are acknowledged by the Frank Lloyd Wright Building Conservancy as Wright's first house designs that ushered in Wright's Prairie Style. The B. Harley Bradley House is open for 1 hour tours.
The cemetery is the eternal home of Timothy Webster, a Civil War spy.
Iroquois County Historical Society Museum
This old ourthouse museum houses numerous exhibits, as well as collections of natural and cultural objects that reflect the dinstictive characteristics of the county.
This historic depot is now home to railroad memorabilia displays.
This nine-ton cannon, used in WW II, the Korean War and the Vietnam War, stands alongside Veterans Parkway in honor of the men and women who have served in the Armed Forces.
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Showing 1-24 of 121 items found in Places to Stay
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Modern motel off I-57, featuring cable TV, free continental breakfast, free local calls, Sr. Citizen discounts, close to restaurants and only 10 minutes to Rend Lake.
CITY:West Frankfort
Welcome to the Americas Best Value Inn of West Frankfort, Illinois located just off I-57 at Exit 65. We offer you a clean and friendly environment for your stay in West Frankfort.
CITY:West Frankfort
Americas Best Value Inn - West Frankfort
The inn is located right on Factory Outlet Blvd. It is close to many attractions, shopping destinations, and restaurants. Complimentary wireless hi-speed Internet access is available for all guests. They offer large suites and rooms with one or two beds.There are rooms furnished for handicap access also available and some rooms have exterior access. Just walking distance from the Factory Outlet Mall.
CITY:West Frankfort
Cabin rental near Cedar Lake, horse campground, tack store and outdoor recreation
Boasting a heated indoor swimming pool, this Vienna motel is located along Interstate 24 and 14 miles from Ferne Clyffe. Each guest room is equipped with free Wi-Fi. Cable TV is provided in every room at Hotel 7 Inn Vienna.
Country Schemes Bed and Breakfast
Relax in a peaceful country setting, take a nature hike, fish and enjoy friendly country hospitality.
Cabin sleeps 4, kitchen, bath. Fishing at front door, remote location, joins Goose Pond on North.
America's Best Value Inn - Cheekwood Inn
Located at exit #18 off I-57, offering 40 modern rooms with inside corridors and an indoor swimming pool.
One room cabin rental near hunting, fishing, biking and horseback riding areas.
Von Jakob Vineyard welcomes you to stay at two new charming B&B locations: The Wine House, with 3 suites and The Port House, with 2 suites.Choose from any of our five spacious suites and escape from it all. Located right on the vineyard's grounds within walking distance of the winery, our B&B's overlook the beautiful rolling hills of the Shawnee National Forest. The stylish décor' and intimate setting will be sure to put you at ease. All suites have king-size beds, wi-fi, & Jacuzzi tub. Each suite is perfect for an overnight stay or weekend getaway any time of the year.
CornerStone Cabins is a group of luxurious Southern Illinois cabins surrounded by bluffs, wildlife, and a fabulous view of the stars. Our cabins are ideal for a romantic getaway plus we have accommodations for groups of up to 35 guests. We provide a unique lodging experience and we're only minutes away from all of the finest Southern IL attractions.
Welcome to the Americas Best Value Inn- Murphysboro, which is located in the heart of beautiful Jackson County. We are just west off of I-57, approx. 20 miles to Carbondale. We are a newly remodeled property with a clean and comfortable home feeling.
If you like to fish, enjoy the beautiful outdoors, for boating, hiking, relaxing rent a cabin that puts you right on the edge of beautiful Kinkaid Lake, Muskie fishing at your fingertips!
The Reece Ridge Luxury Cabin is an open, spacious, beautiful secluded home. It is tastefully decorated in a lodge decor, with comfortable furnishings. The cabin is peaceful and serene surrounded by wooded forest full of wildlife. Step into the great room, featuring a large wood burning fireplace and groove vaulted ceilings and walls. Windows provide natural light and awesome views of the surrounding area. The well equipped kitchen and dining room enjoys the same views. The large, open front porch has a swing and rocking chairs where you can listen to the trees quake in the wind and enjoy a morning cup of coffee.
Mudline Lodging Cabin, RV & Campsite Rental in Southern Illinois is one of the closes rentals to Kinkaid Lake and in the heart of Southern Illinois in a quiet country setting. We currently have 1 fully stocked Cabin (Whitetail), 1 Rental RV (Fully stocked) & 1 full hook-up Campsite. Mudline Lodging is the perfect location for your Hunting, Fishing, Family Vacation, Romantic Weekend, or Girls Get-A-Way. We are able to fit your every need.
America's Best Value Inn - Marion
Motel with 90 rooms including a microwave, refrigerator, and coffee pot. Easy on/easy off access to I-57, exit 54A. Offers: Indoor heated pool, free Wi-Fi, and a hot breakfast.
Hotel with 131 rooms Some facility amenities include a business center, free parking, an indoor pool, on-site fitness center, a hot tub, on site-bar, banquet facilities/rooms, and complimentary continental breakfast.
Relax in our comfortable Marion hotel with a choice of thoughtful extras included with every stay. Our stylish guest rooms feature flat-screen TVs and free WiFi throughout the hotel. Enjoy a tranquil night's rest in a clean and fresh bed and start your day right with Hampton's free hot breakfast. Even if you're in a rush, grab a free Hampton On the Run Breakfast Bags, available Monday through Friday, for a quick, healthy meal to go. Cool off in our refreshing pool or work out in our well-equipped exercise room. Located close to a number of businesses, this charming Marion hotel offers a range of professional services. Catch up with work in the business center and make use of professional services including print, fax and copy facilities.
63 rooms and a free toast bar. Some facility amenities include free parking, pets allowed, and complimentary breakfast.
Cable television, outdoor swimming pool, campground open year round, daily and weekly rates, campground has 24 spotswith water, electric hookups, dump station available.
This motel offers affordable rates with a location close to I-57. It features clean and spacious guest rooms with cable television. Senior rooms are offered. Non-smoking rooms are also available.
Includes meeting and convention services. Some of the facility amenities include an outdoor pool, complimentary breakfast, laundry services, hot tub/ jacuzzi, and a park.
Pyramid Acres Campground & Marina
Offers gas, bait, tackle, ice, beer, groceries, contour maps and camping with water and electricity. Open all year. Located at the northeastern edge of the lake.
79 rooms. Kids stay free, accessible rooms, non-smoking. Close to local restaurants.


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UPDATE: Killing of Joshua Snapp
Arrest affadavits in the killing of Joshua Snapp Thursday show that both suspects, 18 year old John Young and 19 year old Joshua Hunt each shot Snapp after accusing him of being an informant and saying that he owed money to Hunt.
According to the arrest report, after the trio smoked some marijuana near Beardsley Road and 240 in the Horn Rapids area of Richland, Young and Hunt confronted Snapp, with Hunt shooting Snapp several times in the chest and then Young shooting him in the head.
Young and Hunt then changed shoes after realizing they left footprints in the sand and drove to the Conoco in Benton City where Hunt put the gun and their original shoes into a bag and threw them into the Yakima River.
Both are being held in the Benton County jail on suspicion of first degree murder and made their initial court appearances Friday. Each is bering held on $250,000 bail. The state has until Tuesday at 5PM to officially file charges