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Dr Karl › Dr Karl's Great Moments In Science
Dark matter's telltale sign
We can't see dark matter, but we know it exists by how it affects galaxies. In the last part of this series, Dr Karl gets in a spin about rotation.
By Karl S Kruszelnicki
Related Stories
- Audio: Dark matter's telltale sign (Science Online Audio)
- Dark matter 101, Science Online, 06 Mar 2013
- Dark matter shapes the Milky Way, Science Online, 12 Mar 2013
Over the last two episodes, I've talked a lot about our universe, and more specifically, how on average there's about five times as much of this mysterious dark matter as there is of regular matter.
The astronomers have suspected the existence of dark matter for some 80 years. The clue that alerted astronomers was two kinds of "rotation". First, there was the rotation of galaxies around each other, and second, there was the rotation of stars within a galaxy.
So with regard to rotation of galaxies around each other, way back in 1933, the astronomer Fritz Zwicky took a very close look at a cluster (or group) of galaxies called the Coma Cluster. He measured the speeds of the individual galaxies inside this cluster and found, to his vast surprise, that they were going so fast that they should easily break away from the gravity of this cluster of galaxies. But they weren't breaking away. He worked out that to keep the Coma Cluster intact and stable, that there had to be some 10-20 times more matter in the Coma Cluster, than he could see with his telescope. This was one of the first hints of the existence of dark matter.
So what about the second clue, the stars rotating inside a single galaxy? Well, it was the astronomer Vera Rubin who discovered that anomaly in 1973. She would pick a galaxy (typically with about 100 billion stars in it), and using a new technology of the time, measure how fast the stars were orbiting around the centre. She got a real surprise.
It was nothing like our solar system.
In our solar system, the planets close to the Sun go around really rapidly, while the planets further out from the Sun travel much more slowly. So the innermost planet, Mercury, orbits at around 48 kilometers per second, our Earth travels a little slower at 30 kilometers per second, while Neptune way out on the edge crawls along at around 5.4 kilometres per second.
But that was not the case in Vera Rubin's galaxies. The stars near the bulging core of a galaxy travelled around at the same speed as the stars right out on the edge. In our Milky Way, most of the stars, whether they're close to the central black hole, or 50,000 light years away (way out on the edge), all travel at roughly the same speed, about 210-250 kilometres per second.
There was only one way that the theoretical astronomers could explain how a galaxy could spin like this. The maths told them that the galaxy had to be surrounded by a halo, or spherical ball, of some type of matter. And, because it didn't shine, they called it "dark matter".
So what do we know about this dark matter?
First, it's dark, because it doesn't interact with light, or indeed any electromagnetic radiation.
Second, it's definitely not regular matter, like the stuff you and I are made of. The astronomers tell us this from their observations of various galaxies, and star clusters, colliding.
Third, dark matter is not antimatter. If it were, we would see very specific gamma rays being produced whenever dark matter collided with regular matter.
Fourth, we know that it's not black holes. Black holes have a lot of mass crammed into a small volume, so they have a very strong local gravitational field. We would expect to see lots of so-called gravitational lenses, where gravity bends the light of a distant object. We're simply not seeing these gravitation lenses.
Fifth, astronomers have mapped dark matter on a huge scale, analysing the light from 10 million galaxies. They looked at this incoming light to see how it was curved or bent — presumably by intervening dark matter. After five years of hard work, they mapped an intricate cosmic web of intermingled visible galaxies and invisible dark matter. This web covers over a billion light-years. The dark matter seems to be a mesh, or in three dimensions, like a giant sponge with dense and empty regions. The regions of dense dark matter seem to cover a portion of sky about the size of several full moons.
There are three main contenders for the title of dark matter at the moment, each of them some kind of exotic and strange matter. The main categories are: hot dark matter, warm dark matter, and cold dark matter. At the moment, cold dark matter is winning, but that could change.
But if I've learned anything from Goldilocks and the Three Bears, I'll bet that cold dark matter will be just right…
Tags: the-universe, stars, galaxies
Published 19 March 2013
© 2017 Karl S. Kruszelnicki Pty Ltd
Comments (38)
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Help101 :
19 Mar 2013 1:21:00pm
Just an idle musing...
If we are made of matter and can see/interact with other matter yet can only infer the existence of dark matter, is it possible that other entities are made of dark matter and see/interact with dark matter yet can only infer the existence of matter?
As dark matter makes up 5 times more of this universe than matter would a dark matter entity conclude that matter is just some strange aberation to their otherwise normal dark matter landscape?
mathuranatha :
20 Mar 2013 4:53:59pm
Hmm , well what if the beings made of dark matter can in-fact interact with those made of our matter ,and the beings made of ordinary matter [including us] are to a lesser or greater degrees aware of and reciprocate in that interaction?
Maybe all those unscientific cultures claiming to interact with ghostc , fairies ,nature spirits leprechauns ,demons , asuras , hobgoblins ,demigods and devas etc etc were actually more aware of reality than the very recent science based society .
hugh wells :
31 Mar 2013 10:03:55am
its best not to make jumps in reasoning like this but then who would have thought that the Math of infinite numbers could point toward bizarre multiverse realities read Brian Greene ?
Les Harris :
20 Mar 2013 6:53:54pm
I have long thought that the energy spectrum that we have so far mapped might be just a fraction of the entire energy spectrum. Now that the existence of dark matter and dark energy appears to be reasonably certain, they would certainly qualify.
Help101 :
22 Mar 2013 10:40:15am
Hi Les Harris,
I completely agree with you.
I too think that our understanding of 'big' is really still vastly too small to come close to even realising how big 'big' really is.
Which is perhaps a limitation of our human brains.
Maybe with a bit of evolution and the help of a few new smart people in the future our comprehension of our place in the larger universe (ie. larger than the observable component of our universe), multiverse, and/or Bulk (and what ever frame of reference the Bulk(s) exist within ... and so on) will become clearer for us.
In relation to the energy spectrum I suspect it is also much larger than we can currently measure or understand. I realise many scientists don't like infinity (as it is a pain in the but to do math with) but on a mere theoretically basis there is no reason why in an infinite (multi)universe infinity is not also applicable to energy spectrums.
It is all rather tantalizing.
MarkS :
21 Mar 2013 12:02:17am
Electrons and Protons are attracted to each other with a strong force and are destined to combine to form atoms. Neutrons on the other hand are electrically neutral and if there were lots more of them than could ever be used by the atoms in the universe, can there be stable cloulds of neutrons in intergalactic space at 3 degrees Kelvin that don't react with the small amount of electromagnetic radiation between the galaxies. Generally speaking, I think that it is only the obiting electron of an atom that reacts with EM radiation, but on a neutron which is electrically neutral no reaction, therefore can't be seen, yet it has mass and is normal matter that's contained within most atoms. And dinosaurs are thin at both ends, eh hem...
Help101 :
22 Mar 2013 9:58:14am
Thanks MarkS,
That sounds like a much more realistic hypothesis and explanation for dark matter.
Whether masses of neutrinos are what dark matter is (HDM theory) or whether it is made up of sterile neutrinos and gravitinos (WDM theory) or weakly interacting massive particles (CDM theory) will be interesting to find out in time.
Perhaps the Dark fluid theory which proposes that dark matter and dark energy are not separate physical phenomena as previously thought, but are linked together and are really specific sub-effects of new extended laws of gravity at very large scales.
I look forward to scientists filling this gap in our understanding of the currently observable component of our universe.
Brazza :
21 Mar 2013 12:03:02pm
Yes those are my thoughts more or less. In forming a view of the status and reality of dark matter, it would pay to open the question of the relativity of our own rerality, how we are seen, or understood, from the standpoint of another reality which we "infer" but do not directly experience, or for that matter, know. By analogy, our universe of knowledge has frequently been found wanting, hence the need to expand it, for its own benefit.
Help101 :
22 Mar 2013 10:14:28am
Hi Brazza,
Great points, it will be interesting to see (in time) whether learning more about dark matter will alter our accepted view of multidimensional space/time and what reality really is (and whether it is purely relative to the observer).
I enjoy the concept that an electron can only have a theorised position and while the vast majority of electrons will a statistical probability of being where they should be within the sub atomic structure they also have a tiny probability of also being somewhere completely different (ie. elsewhere in the universe) at some point in time. As such it is statistically possible that one or more of the electrons that form part of our own sub atomic structure could potentially be somewhere else in the universe (and not within us in a relative sense) at some point in time which would suggest that part of all of us is potentially scattered across the universe.
ie. Atomic electron orbitals are statistically defined as volumes that represent the bulk of the area under a probability curve. This, of course, has led to the idea that one of the statistical tails allows orbitals to stretch to infinity.
Which leads me question, like you, what reality really is.
Brian :
24 Mar 2013 10:01:11am
So with a Multiverse theory dark matter may just be not visible, because it is out of sync with this Universe (aka it is one or more other Universe/s entirely), or are you in one of the others?
So who's going to explain the possibility of the interaction of two or more Universes?
Help101 :
28 Mar 2013 2:57:22pm
Hi Brian,
No, not as such.
The multiverse idea certainly allows for Dark Matter to exist within our universe, and other universes, and doesn't suggest that Dark Matter is another universe, which isn't to say other universes may not have very different amounts of Dark Matter (not to mention the potential to have other exotic particles which aren't in evidence in this universe).
The Big Bang itself is postulated as being the result of the interaction of two or more universes (Branes) within the Bulk.
Ronnie C. Wells Jr :
21 Mar 2013 12:40:35pm
Well if that's possible then this could be possible. Assuming we are matter of what can be seen with our own eyes. Like the planets and galaxy's we can see. Humans and animals can be the same matter so we can see it. Dark matter could be like ghost and an unseen world to us, but dark matter can see and manipulate everything. Like air on on this planet can consist of all dark matters. Only because it can be hot, cool, and cold. Wind is a matter that dosn't interact with physical matter and dosn't give of gamma radiation like it dosn't interact against galaxies. Dark matter can act just like the unseen matter of air. Which pushes clouds and precipitation around but we can't see it. Just because we can't see it dosnt' mean its not real. Just as the same as dark matter in the galaxy and other galaxies. It would act as a constant motivator in the same direction. Almost like the tides in the ocean, we can predict where and when they will go like El Nina and El Niño. So why isn't the theory of dark matter the same concept? Wouldn't it act like a constant variable in galaxies or on other planet's or even our own planet. I believe the answer's to dark matter may not only be in galaxies but on our own planet. This could be a possible theory to work on or invest some time into. If we can find the answers here on our own planet then possibly it's the same in galaxies?
Help101 :
22 Mar 2013 10:32:05am
Hi Ronnie,
A great idea there.
It seems that dark matter does in fact interact with matter in that dark matter has a mass which causes (under traditional theories of gravity) a warping of our space/time continuum which therefore causes a type of interaction with matter and of course causes photons to appear to bend their trajectory (as they travel on a straight line). It will be interesting to see what relationship dark matter has with matter (it obviously holds our galaxies together, and galactic clusters together, for one).
The DAMA/Nal experiment and its successor DAMA/LIBRA have claimed to directly detected dark matter particles passing through the Earth. So perhaps we will find answers here.
I strongly suspect as we learn more about supersymmetry and the various proposed string theories we will be capable of understanding more about dark matter and dark energy.
We seem to be at the cusp of a new horizon.
hugh wells :
31 Mar 2013 10:09:35am
unfortunately not true dark matter is only inferred as of now there have been no confirmed detections.
hugh wells :
31 Mar 2013 9:54:59am
its tempting to conjecture but its best to read the literature first and although maps of dark matter have been produced there are many puzzles in the literature eg local concentrations not consistent with observations ? The MOND hypothesis makes things worse because it is sometimes a better fit but there is great reluctance to throw out special relativity ? At this stage of knowledge its best not to conjecture be patient and read the literature the clues are there ?
hugh wells :
31 Mar 2013 9:59:41am
in the sense that anything is possible unless it is forbidden yes but dark matter does not appear to act in the same way as baryonic matter and may not be able to form structures such as suns planets and biological entities ? You see the point you cannot miss out the intermediate steps and jump from the concept of dark matter to baryonic matter structures ?
geekay :
21 Mar 2013 8:36:10am
Facinating. Help101 that's what I was thinking -another dimension. Perhaps "god" lives there? Maybe we might be able to make a "space ship" out of dark matter, or coat it with dark matter, and travel around the universe...endless possibilities
Help101 :
22 Mar 2013 10:47:32am
Hi Geekay,
In an infinitely large multiverse it is statistically possible that all the gods (and anything else) exist at some point in time (which is a poor frame of reference).
That is an interesting idea, perhaps dark matter (and dark energy) will become the energy source of the future which will enable us to power the theorised FTL Alcubierre Drive etc.
As warp drives currently have energy requirements which can be considered to be absurdly gigantic, or 'merely' have a mass-energy requirement the equivalent of the planet Jupiter to that of the Voyager 1 spacecraft we will need some new form of energy to achieve the ability to warp space to allow for FTL travel around the universe, perhaps dark matter/energy will fit the bill?
hugh wells :
31 Mar 2013 10:18:39am
come on now we all hope for greater understanding of the reality but there are very good reasons for accepting the constraint of the velocity of light in a vacuum. Merlin in the once and future king states the principle that anything not forbidden is compulsory ? As for Gods its best to quote Pierre Laplace who when asked by Napoleon why he did not mention God said i did not need that hypothesis Sire ?
Help101 :
02 Apr 2013 3:53:37pm
The Alcubierre Drive concept is based upon the idea of not trying to go faster than light in a vacuum but to use a mechanism by which space-time could be "warped" both in front of and behind a spacecraft, without violating Einstein's law of relativity.
In terms of the engine's mechanics, a spheroid object would be placed between two regions of space-time (one expanding and one contracting). A "warp bubble" would then be generated that moves space/time around the object, effectively repositioning it, the end result being FTL travel without the spacecraft having to move with respect to its local frame of reference.
While nothing locally exceeds the speed of light, space can expand and contract at any speed.
Not long ago physicist Harold White announced that he and his team at NASA had begun work on the development of a faster-than-light warp drive.
He states "My early results suggested I had discovered something that was in the math all along," he recalled. "I suddenly realized that if you made the thickness of the negative vacuum energy ring larger, like shifting from a belt shape to a donut shape, and oscillate the warp bubble, you can greatly reduce the energy required, perhaps making the idea plausible."
He presented the results of his Alcubierre Drive rethink a year later at the 100 Year Starship conference in Atlanta where he highlighted his new optimization approaches, a new design that could significantly reduce the amount of exotic matter required. And in fact, White says that the warp drive could be powered by a mass that's even less than that of the Voyager 1 spacecraft.
The reduction in mass from a Jupiter-sized planet to an object that weighs a mere 1,600 pounds has completely reset White's sense of plausibility, and NASA's.
Just think, in the not so distant future we could be arriving at a location 4 light years away in a matter of weeks.
pennyturtle :
21 Mar 2013 7:11:05pm
If I pass a tiny little magnet over a paper clip, all the gravity the Earth can muster won't stop the tiny magnet from out muscling the paper clip from it's grip. The force of gravity is insignificant when compared to electromagnetic force.Theoretical physicists, the same who are busily inventing concepts such as dark matter and dark energy, look out at interstellar and intergalactic magnetic fields,and choose to not allow that a magnetic field is generated by a moving electric current, especially one moving through plasma.If you read the releases concerning the Voyager probes, the scientists are continually amazed and surprised by both the levels of plasma being measured, and the electromagnetic field they are still encountering. Many experimental plasma physicists and electrical engineers, such as Dr. Donald Scott and Dr. Anthony Peratt, predicted these results. Peratt has created scaled models of spiral galaxies using two points of charge in a plasma with the aid of no black holes, and no dark matter. Others have observed and recorded the effects on the red-shifting of light when interacting with electromagnetic forces without conjuring a shred of dark energy.
How did we get to a point where experimental scientists could be so cast in the dark, so to speak, while the old boys club of theorists could allow their inventions created to cover their ignorance be put about as if it was fact?
john :
24 Mar 2013 4:05:47pm
Blasphemy!!!! A non-believer!!!! Burn him!
Help101 :
28 Mar 2013 3:04:09pm
Hi Pennyturtle,
Gravity is the weakest of the four forces and it is about 10 to the power of -36 times the strength of the strong forces. This weakness is easily demonstrable as you suggested.
However, the power of gravity is in the range of gravity, which is unlimited (every object in the universe exerts a gravitational force on everything else. The effects of gravity depend on two things: the mass of two bodies and the distance between them. In more precise terms, the attractive force between any two bodies is directly proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the bodies).
The dominance of gravity on macroscopic scales is due not to any intrinsic strength but instead to its enormous range and constant attractive nature, especially as compared to the other forces.
While at first glance gravity may seem weak it is in reality the most powerful of all the four forces, so powerful in fact that it can warp the fabric of our space/time continuum (even your paper clip does).
Now that is power if you ask me.
hugh wells :
31 Mar 2013 10:21:01am
The Old Boys Club you say eg Einstein ?
katesisco :
22 Mar 2013 12:59:34am
Galaxies in a cluster: speed so fast should spin off.
Stars in a galaxy: all the same speed.
Planets orbiting round (our) star: fast close in, slow out.
Instead of gravity breaking down (imaginary matter required)perhaps a better explanation is that magnetism breaks down on a small scale.
M Mathis has some interesting papers on the net based on magnetism being spin.
JoeBloggs :
22 Mar 2013 2:39:17pm
Dr Karl,
Any ideas on how we might be able to use this dark matter to generate usable energy?
I note that the paper by Jia Liu, from Cornell University "Dark Matter as a Possible New Energy Source for Future Rocket Technology" and gives an example of a dark matter engine using dark matter annihilation products as propulsion and seems to suggest there is the potential to use it to accelerate a spaceship close to the speed of light (in the case where there is a central black hole in the halo the radius of the dense spike can be large enough to achieve this).
Do you think this is just a flight of fancy or a potential new propulsion system?
Are there any systems you are aware of that could harness dark matter?
I appreciate we still aren't quite sure what it is at this stage.
pennyturtle :
24 Mar 2013 1:42:54pm
There's a lot of talk about utilizing dark matter for our uses and future technologies. This is the same dark matter which, after over twenty years with thousands of research hours and many millions of dollars spent, not a speck has been found. How useful was an understanding of gravity in the technological advances which have led to me sitting at this computer writing, and you reading this comment? If you are powered by hydro electricity, I grant there's some, though only when coupled with the manipulation of an understanding of electromagnetic forces and principles. Otherwise, nearly all of the technological advance that has brought our civilization to its present position has found its roots in electromagnetism, not gravity. Perhaps it's time cosmologists took a hint.
Jon :
24 Mar 2013 5:12:36am
I think it's just a matter of time that a theory like the Mond theory disproves this whole dark matter idea entirely. If you can't see the things the maths theorists are proposing, if the stuff they are proposing doesn't interact with anything... I would alledge there is no such thing. I'm of the belief people just have not figured out the maths to the "as why" the things we see are what they are. Dark Matter = an incorrect theory... this is what I'll postulate anyway.
Help101 :
28 Mar 2013 3:08:55pm
Hi Jon,
The MOND theory is an interesting one but it does have its problems.
For example an empirical criticism of MOND, released in August 2006, involves the Bullet cluster, a system of two colliding galaxy clusters.
In most instances where phenomena associated with either MOND or dark matter are present, they appear to flow from physical locations with similar centers of gravity.
But, the dark matter-like effects in this colliding galactic cluster system appears to emanate from different points in space than the center of mass of the visible matter in the system, which is unusually easy to discern due to the high-energy collisions of the gas in the vicinity of the colliding galactic clusters.
MOND proponents admit that a purely baryonic MOND is not able to explain this observation.
Dark matters :
25 Mar 2013 2:13:58pm
I still dont understand how they come to the conclusion that dark matter is made of a different material than we are
Help101 :
28 Mar 2013 3:15:53pm
Hi Dark Matters,
There are three separate lines of evidence that the majority of dark matter is non-baryonic, i.e. not made of ordinary matter (protons, electrons and atoms) like you and me.
1. Detailed analysis of the small irregularities in the cosmic microwave background observed by WMAP and Planck shows that around five-sixths of the total matter is in a form which does not interact significantly with ordinary matter or photons.
2. Large astronomical searches for gravitational microlensing, including the MACHO, EROS and OGLE projects, have shown that only a small fraction of the dark matter in the Milky Way can be hiding in dark ompact objects.
3. The theory of Big Bang nucleosynthesis gives a good estimate of the amount of ordinary (baryonic) matter at around 4 - 5 percent of critical density; while evidence from large-scale structure and other observations indicates that the total matter density is substantially higher than this.
However a small proportion of dark matter may be baryonic dark matter: astronomical bodies, such as massive compact halo objects, that are composed of ordinary matter but which emit little or no electromagnetic radiation.
The study of nucleosynthesis in the Big Bang produces an upper bound on the amount of baryonic matter in the universe, which indicates that the vast majority of dark matter in the universe cannot be baryons, and thus does not form atoms.
Dark Matter also can't interact with ordinary matter via electromagnetic forces; in particular, dark matter particles do not carry any electric charge. Neither does it emit or absorb light or other electromagnetic radiation at any significant level.
Michael :
27 Mar 2013 9:02:21pm
Actually one answer for dark matter is very simple. Take the stuff we are most used to and imagine it is an energy string connected in time a linear dimension. Then to exist in our dimension it must require force to move in any of the three spacial directions. Why do we assume atoms are solid when we are not. Humans are in this moment of time because we are a combination of electromagnetic forces. Example a very heavy knot in a middle of a string is tight under tension. Swing the string and the knot is the focal point of force felt. The rest has force but at an incresing distance from the knot. If the string is very very long the force in the string is greater than the knot but has no focal point. Very simple. It also explains why a harmonic wobble can be set up in a gyro using force and calmed again also using force. Simple dimension stuff really if only there is anyone smart enough to get over that nothing is solid it only appears that way.
Help101 :
28 Mar 2013 2:04:03pm
The wave–particle duality of matter would tend to suggest that nothing is actually solid, ... as it is always a wave ... unless it is observed with a view to determining where a particle is.
ie. upon measuring the location of the particle, the particle will be forced into a more localized state as given by the uncertainty principle. When viewed through this formalism, the measurement of the wave function will randomly "collapse", or rather "decohere", to a sharply peaked function at some location.
As such the 'solidness' of a particle is entirely relative to the observer.
It could therefore be argued that if you don't try to see if an object is solid then it isn't.
pennyturtle :
29 Mar 2013 5:31:52am
Theoretical constructs involving ever increasing dimensions are not going to help anymore than dark matter and dark energy speculations. They are untestable and unsupported by experimental work. Dr Karl informs us that 95 or 96% of the universe is either dark matter or dark energy. So what percentage of this dark stuff has to be allowed for to fly to the moon, send a probe to Mars, or guide the Voyager spacecrafts to the edge of the solar system? If it's dark matter that provides the gravity to prevent the stars, including Sol, from flying off our galactic hurdy gurdy, why does it play 0% of a part in the solar system? Plasma physicists, here on Earth, can demonstrate scalar versions of the visible universe phenomenon. An example of charge creation is when observable matter, here on Earth, is subject to the piezoelectric effect. This is the backbone of the next generation of charge creation and harvesting for electrical devices. Charge can be created through movement, such as vibration or spin, or compression, as in your BBQ lighter, of crystals. Scaling up, the Earth has at it's core, what is believed to be a dense core of crystalline iron and nickel. This has been postulated through study of S and P seismic waves. The gravity of normal matter, comined with the spin of the Earth on its axis, creates enough force to generate an electromagnetic field. Remembering that an electric current creates magnetic fields, and that magnetic fields can only be generated by electric forces, our scalar model can make sense of solar phenomenon such as the temperature of the sun's chromosphere being measured in the millions, compared to the surface at about 6,000 degrees. When the electromagnetism generated by all the matter in the galaxy, moving through the plasma which the Voyagers are still recording on the edge of interstellar space is factored in, no new dimensions, or dark matter are required to simulate the workings of an atom, a planet, a galaxy,a supercluster or the universe. It's all about the movement, predominantly spin, within plasma, with a bit of normal gravity to add its weight, so to speak.
jackcleary :
04 Apr 2013 12:27:13pm
kudos to pennyturtle for his/her article Mar.29...how refreshing to read possibilities based on known and proven technologies. Whilst the 'scientific' scientists create dark matter out of nothing, it appears quite possible that their hypothesis must have existed before the "Big Bang" illumination. i.e. it was dark then, and it still is!
MarkS :
08 Apr 2013 12:07:24am
If dark matter is real, not seen, but whose gravitation is felt, then why wouldn't it be drawn to the stars and planets and become a part of them, making them more Massive beyond current expected predictions. Gravity as a force of attraction must surely be trying to bring Matter and dark matter to the same local concentrations in space to the point that every star and planet should contain more dark matter that normal matter. (Based on the statement that there is more dark matter than normal matter) Yet when the mass of matter is measured, there doesn't appear to be any significant error that would imply that there is darker matter in the same location of the material under measurement.
If one was to assume that dark matter could pass through normal matter, it may be possible then that any dark matter that came in contact with the earth or sun if it comes to that, would go straight to the centre of those respective bodies and not be present on their surfaces. However the total gravity would be much larger than expected. The only way accept the larger amount of gravity would be to assume that the core of either of these bodies has a denser material within, but the reality is that it doesn't, it just has dark matter in dispered in it...
But really, unless you can explain why the objects in the solar system don't appear to contain any Dark matter, there probably isn't any anywhere.
Help101 :
11 Apr 2013 11:48:06am
"If dark matter is real, not seen, but whose gravitation is felt, then why wouldn't it be drawn to the stars and planets and become a part of them"
or... as Dark Matter is more abundant than normal matter why wouldn't the galaxies and stars etc be drawn towards the areas of space dense with Dark Matter?
Which is exactly what happens.
Try reading the article again, particularly the bit about what astronomer Fritz Zwicky and astronomer Vera Rubin noticed, concluding with "There was only one way that the theoretical astronomers could explain how a galaxy could spin like this. The maths told them that the galaxy had to be surrounded by a halo, or spherical ball, of some type of matter. And, because it didn't shine, they called it "dark matter"."
MarkS :
17 Apr 2013 12:56:20am
Question, do the bodies observed within our Solar system appear to exert a greater level of Gravity beyond what their respective compositions would predict. If it's good enough for Dark matter to exist within intergalactic space it's good enough for all of the bodies within the solar system after 5 odd billion years to have mopped up some of this mysterious gravitationally attractive substance...
Secondly, I'm not sure that the solar system makes for a good comparison with galactic structures. Other than the Asteroid belt, at all other orbits there is only one body. At any distance within the galactic plane from the centre, there are so many objects sharing the same galactic obit that the comparison almost dies. If you could imagine a string of Saturn sized planets sharing Saturn's orbit, but spaced one every 0.5 degree of arch, although the Sun is holding them back from flying into space, so to are the two nearest other Saturn objects. ie the one in front and the one trailing in the orbit.
Perhaps rather than performing this mind exercise, Saturn's ring material may make a better galactic analogy. Does the objects within the inside of any of the discs rotate at a different angular velocity to that towards the outer part of the same disc, or does the gravity between the objects make the disc appear to more or less move as a solid object. If this is the case, then the comparison between planet orbital speed against distance from it's star should not be imposed on a galaxy, but that of Saturn's rings.
So is there enough stars in the outer galaxy to hold the structure together? My guess is yes and no. Not enough to hold a solid uniform structure, but one that created spiral arms with the density required to hold the system together. What I am suggesting, is that towards the outer Galaxy, the objects aren't so much orbiting the galactic centre so much as being dragged by the spiral arm that it is within.
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Rick and Janet Cross of Price are announcing the marriage of their daughter Brandy Kristine Randall to Joshua Lloyd Wagner, son of Cato and Janice Wagner of Huntington. The couple will be married Jan. 15 at Desert Edge Christian Chapel in Huntington.
A reception will be held in their honor at 3:30 p.m. following the wedding.

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Germany Beginning Research Series Lesson 3: Using Maps, Gazetteers and Websites
This lesson will help learn to verify your ancestor's locality information by using maps and gazetteers. Once you have solid locality information you can use the Family History Library Catalog to locate records. The lesson utilizes two case studies to demonstrate the use of these tools. You will also find links to online resources included within the lesson.
Hansen's Map Guides: Finding records with parish maps
In this presentation, you will learn to use Kevan Hansen's "Map Guide to German Parish Registers" series to find the Lutheran or Catholic parish for a given town, determine whether or not the Family History Library has records for a given parish, and determine which parishes should be included in an area search.


text: Vintage Sports Car Drivers Association (VSCDA) hosts the 21st Blackhawk Vintage Classic Gates open 24hrs starting at 6pm on Thursday the 13th. Gate fee is $10. All proceeds from the gate are donated to the Tebala Shriners Children's Transport Fund. Children 12 and under are free. Camping is Free. There will be vintage airplane fly-insFind out more »


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The male analog to menopause—or andropause—has been associated with menopausal-like symptoms, including weakened bones, decreased sex drive, and even hot flashes and irritability. While this condition is controversial, more and more men are asking their doctors for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) prescriptions to alleviate some of these symptoms. But is TRT a safe and effective treatment for age-related declines in testosterone? And which men—if any—should be taking it?
Testosterone is one of the male sex hormones—or androgens—responsible for the development of masculine characteristics. During puberty, testosterone initiates the enlargement of the penis and testes, growth of facial and pubic hair, deepening of the voice, increases in muscle mass and strength, and growth in height. In male adults, testosterone is involved in the maintenance of sex drive, production of sperm cells, male hair patterns, muscle mass, and bone mass.
As men age, their production of testosterone naturally declines. But this age-related hormonal decline is much less dramatic in men than in women. During menopause, the production of estrogen and progesterone decreases sharply in women. The drop in testosterone is much more subtle in men.
Low levels of testosterone have been associated with weakened bones, diabetes and cardiovascular disease rates, diminished sex drive, and muscle loss in aging men. Signs of low testosterone levels include decreased sex drive, erectile dysfunction, low sperm count, reduced fertility, and increased breast size. Some men may even experience menopausal-like symptoms, including hot flashes, irritability, difficulty concentrating, and depression.
If your doctor suspects your testosterone levels are low, a simple blood test can check it. But since testosterone levels fluctuate widely throughout the day, a single test may not be able to diagnose testosterone deficiency. Generally, the acceptable range of levels is between 250-1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) for total testosterone.
While testosterone does decline with age, diseases and conditions of the testes, pituitary gland, hypothalamus, and various genetic conditions may also cause reductions in the production of testosterone. If your testosterone levels are abnormally low, your doctor may perform additional tests to look for damage to the testes, or hypothalamic or pituitary gland diseases. If one of these diseases or conditions is detected, treatment may resolve the testosterone deficiency, or TRT may be indicated. In addition, some medications may cause the testosterone level to drop. Diminished testosterone levels are a known complication of chronic opioid therapy for chronic pain.
There are different delivery methods of TRT for clinically low testosterone levels in otherwise healthy men, such as pills, injections, patches or gels, and a tablet that adheres to the gum surface. TRT might benefit men who suffer the symptoms of low testosterone in a number of ways, including:
For years, menopausal women took hormone replacement therapy (HRT, a combination of estrogen and progesterone) to relieve symptoms of menopause and increase bone density. However, HRT has been linked with increased risk of breast cancer, heart disease, stroke, and blood clots. It is not clear at this point if testosterone therapy effects cardiovascular outcomes in men.
There are also concerns that TRT may increase the risk of prostate enlargement, and prostate cancer. So far studies have not shown conclusive evidence of this.
If you are considering this therapy, talk to your doctor about the potential harms and benefits.
The Endocrine Society
National Institute on Aging
Health Canada
The Canadian Society of Endocrinology and Metabolism
Daniell HW. DHEAS deficiency during consumption of sustained-action prescribed opioids: evidence for opioid-induced inhibition of adrenal androgen production. J Pain. 2006;7:901-907.
Daniell HW, Lentz R, Mazer NA. Open-label pilot study of testosterone patch therapy in men with opioid-induced androgen deficiency. J Pain. 2006;7:200-210.
Hijazi RA, Cunningham GR. Andropause: is androgen replacement therapy indicated for the aging male? Annu Rev Med. 2005;56:117-137.
Hormonal replacement therapy (HRT). EBSCO DynaMed website. Available at: http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed. Updated March 15, 2015. Accessed March 31, 2015.
Menopause male. Cleveland Clinic. Cleveland Clinic website. Available at http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/male_menopause/hic_male_menopause.aspx. Updated January 22, 2009. Accessed March 31, 2015.
Patient guide to testosterone therapy in men. Endocrine Society website Available at: http://www.hormone.org/patient-guide/2010/testosterone-therapy-in-men. Published June 2010. Accessed March 31, 2015.
Testosterone therapy. EBSCO DynaMed website. Available at: http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed. Updated January 22, 2015. Updated March 31, 2015.
Understanding puberty. Kids Health—Nemours Foundation website. Available at: http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/growing/understanding_puberty.html. Updated October 2012. Accessed March 31, 2015.
Wang C, Nieschlag E, Swerdloff R. ISA, ISSAM, EAU, EAA and ASA recommendations: investigation, treatment and monitoring of late-onset hypogonadism in males. Int J Impot Res. 2009;21(1):1-8.
1/21/2008 DynaMed's Systematic Literature Surveillance http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed: Emmelot-Vonk MH, Verhaar HJ, Nakhai Pour HR, et al. Testosterone therapy in older men with low testosterone levels. JAMA. 2008;299:39-52.
Last reviewed March 2015 by Michael Woods, MD
Please be aware that this information is provided to supplement the care provided by your physician. It is neither intended nor implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice. CALL YOUR HEALTHCARE PROVIDER IMMEDIATELY IF YOU THINK YOU MAY HAVE A MEDICAL EMERGENCY. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider prior to starting any new treatment or with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
Copyright © 2012 EBSCO Publishing All rights reserved.
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text:
Oz will begin to remember Luffy's memories with the scooby gang, um I mean the Straw Hats. Which will make him defeat Moria so Luffy's bounty doesn't raise once more, for a while at least.
Since Oda did the classic foreshadow of Oz saying, "I don't know you guys." at the end of the chapter to Ussop's remark. Meaning that Oz eventually will remember and etc.


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Follow @CourtneyPFB on twitter for updates.
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Lulu Townsend Glitter Envelope Clutch
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At Staten Island University Hospital, our physicians have earned a reputation
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Staten Island University Hospital provides complete medical
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settings at both our North and South site locations.
Read on to learn more about the full range of
services offered at SIUH, including
locations, contact information
and descriptions of programs.
At Staten Island University Hospital, we strive to provide
the best health care for our patients. We also seek
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That's why we provide many helpful
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Would you like to visit someone who is a patient at Staten Island University Hospital? If so, we welcome you. Family and friends
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Staten Island University Hospital is part of the Staten Island community. In addition to providing state-of-the-art healthcare services, we educate our
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Providing quality health care for our patients is our greatest priority.
In order to do this, our hospital family is committed
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We provide accredited training and
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The Cancer Genetics Program at Staten Island University Hospital offers genetic counseling services to patients that may be at an increased risk for inherited forms of cancer.
Cancer genetic counselors are specially trained health care professionals with an extensive knowledge of the genes associated with different forms of cancer. They can evaluate your likelihood of developing cancer in your lifetime by thoroughly reviewing your personal and family history.
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Browse by Creator
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Number of items: 2.
Kumar, P., Kassam, J., Denton, C., Taylor, E. and Chatterley, A. (2010) Systematic review: Risk factors for inferior shoulder subluxation in patients with stroke. Physical Therapy Reviews, 15 (1). pp. 3-11. ISSN 1083-3196 Available from: http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/12522
Chatterley, A., Denton, C., Taylor, E., Kassam, J. and Kumar, P. (2007) Risk factors for shoulder subluxation following stroke: A systematic literature review. In: Student Conference, University of the West of England (UWE), Bristol, 12th June, 2007. Available from: http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/1559
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Conference Information
|Full Title:
|American Association for the Advancement of Science
|Short Title:
|Boston, MA, USA
|Start Date:
|14-Feb-2013 - 18-Feb-2013
|Lise Menn
|Meeting Email:
|click here to access email
|Meeting URL:
|Meeting Description:
|This year AAAS will meet in Boston February 14-18 at the Hynes Convention Center. An enormous range of topics on science and science education will be presented.
Symposia of particular interest to linguists include:
The Language Organ, The Bases of Human Language in Human Biology, organized by Stephen Anderson, Yale (February 15, 8:30 AM-11:30 AM)
Historical Syntax: The Biology and Evolution of Human Language, organized by Joseph Salmons and David Lightfoot (February 15, 1:00 PM-2:30 PM)
Language Evolving: Genes and Culture in Ongoing Language Evolution, organized by Stephen Levinson and Karen Emmorey (February 15, 3:00 PM-4:30 PM)
The Connectome: From the Synapse to Brain Networks in Health and Disease; Old Dogs, New Tricks: How Plastic is the Human Brain? organized by David Holtzman, Washington University (February 16, 8:30 AM-11:30 AM)
Computation, Computational Efficiency, and Cognitive Science, organized by Anna Marie Di Sciullo and Robert Berwick (February 16, 1:30 PM-4:30 PM)
Teaching the Brain to Speak Again: New Frontiers in Trauma and Stroke Recovery, organized by Nan Bernstein Ratner, Maryland and Margaret Rogers American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (February 16, 3:00 PM-4:30 PM)
Understanding Memory: the Legacy of Case H.M., organized by Howard Eichenbaum, Boston University (February 18, 9:45 AM-12:45 PM)
|Linguistic Subfield:
|General Linguistics
|LL Issue:
|Calls and Conferences main page


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The residents of Clawson gathered in the Clawson Park Sept. 22 for a Chili Cook Off to celebrate the end of summer and just have fun. On two of the park tables were large photo books of past Clawson events for anyone that was interested to view. The city park had games set up for the children such as counting beans in a jar, coloring pictures on the top of Frisbees and climbing on the old cottonwood tree. Some were seen playing basketball on the tennis and ball court.
Mayor Mandie Price welcomed everyone to the event and after an opening prayer she gave a tribute to past Postmistress Sandra Justice. Justice was given a decorative clock in commemoration of her many years as Postmistress at the Clawson Post Office. Sandra has retired after 31 years of service to the community. On the back of the clock is a photo of the Clawson Main Street with the Post Office.
Justice thanked everyone and said she misses that job already, but after 31 years it was time to retire.
The winner of the Chili Cook Off was Town Council Member Jerry Price, Carry Bloomer's chili was second and Shawn Price's chili was third. The two judges for the chili cook off were Laramie Morgan and Nicole Morgan.
Mayor Price invited everyone to come forward and enjoy the chili and scones. There were many different pots of chili to choose from. When the eating of chili slowed down Auctioneer Larry Cook was invited to auction off tables full of cakes, pies, cinnamon rolls, hot cross buns, bags and back packs all donated by members of the community.
The funds from this auction go toward funding next years Clawson Day Celebration and other community events throughout the year.


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WASHINGTON — The day after a mass shooting in the nation's capital that left 12 Navy Yard workers dead, top Democrats said the tragedy has not changed the political reality in Congress, where any legislation affecting gun owners' rights does not have the support to pass.
"We don't have the votes," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Tuesday when asked whether the shootings at the Navy Yard could boost support of stalled legislation to toughen background checks and make it harder for people with mental illness to buy guns.
The Senate tried and failed to pass gun legislation earlier this year in response to the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. A bipartisan compromise authored by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Pat Toomey, R-Pa., fell six votes shy of the 60 votes required to break a filibuster.
RELATED: Background check bill on hold in Senate
Manchin told reporters Tuesday that he was seeking additional information about alleged gunman Aaron Alexis, his reported history of mental illness and how he acquired the firearms used in Monday's shooting. "It's not gun control, this is gun sense," Manchin said, but he conceded that the legislation would not return unless it was clear it had the votes to pass.
Following Monday's massacre, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D.-Calif., asked "When will enough be enough? Congress must stop shirking its responsibility and resume a thoughtful debate on gun violence in this country. We must do more to stop this endless loss of life."
In the House, Minority Whip Steny Hoyer, D-Md., candidly acknowledged that the political risks for taking such votes are high and help explain the reluctance among lawmakers to support tougher gun laws.
Last week, Colorado voters recalled two state lawmakers who supported stricter gun laws. "Public opinion apparently does not manifest itself at the polls," Hoyer said. "What manifests itself at the polls is the hard-line groups that energize their single-issue voters."
Polls consistently show tougher background checks are supported by a majority of Americas. "Almost everybody thinks this is a rational thing to do," Hoyer said, but there is still not enough support in Congress.
At the White House, White House press secretary Jay Carney sidestepped questions on whether President Obama would attempt to restart his push for tighter gun laws in the aftermath of Monday's mass shootings
"He doesn't accept it is the new normal," Carney said on Tuesday. "He believes Americans don't and can't accept that. He continues…to press forward in doing what he can through his executive powers to take measures to reduce gun violence—common sense measures. And we continue to call on Congress to listen to the voices of their constituents and legislate accordingly."
Contributing: Aamer Madhani


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Skip to comments.An Iowa jury will decide: Is woman a heroic mom who saved her kids or a shrewd killer?
Posted on 10/22/2011 9:26:01 AM PDT by ConservativeStatement
EARLY, Iowa (AP) Something shocking happened one cold night a decade ago in this quiet country town of 500 people, but even now, just one fact about it all is undisputed:
Tracey Roberts, at home with her three children, fired 9 shots from two guns into her 20-year-old neighbor, leaving him dead on the floor of her bedroom.
Tall and thin with curly brown hair and blue eyes, she was 35 at the time. It wasn't long before her image appeared in newspaper coverage of the shooting and even on a national TV talk show, where she was celebrated as a heroic mother who acted in self-defense to protect herself and her young children from men who broke into her home and assaulted her.
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
The motive doesn't make sense. Why did she want to kill the kid?
I was just about to ask that same question. I reread the article and still failed to find a motive for the reopening of the case.
I meant why did she do it?
Reopening the case? It was never closed. Murders don't have a statute of limitations.
You mean her side of the story? Probably to protect her kids against an intruder. Why did she otherwise "want" to kill him? I'm not sure.
I have a different question.
What was this "kid"? (he was 20 yrs old) doing in her bedroom?
The lady sounds completely crazy. I wouldn't doubt for a second her guilt.
She was trying to frame her first Ex. The diary was an effort to claim her ex hired the kid to kill her.
You apparently do not have a 20 year old son. They are just dumb clucks at that age. She probably came on to him. Hubbie was out of town. Did he turn her down? She had asked him to come over to do some "copy" work....
That's why many states will bring a case before a grand jury so they can "no bill" the case by voting not to indict to protect against future malicious prosecution. A reopening of the case would require new evidence.
so the kid was dispensable, frame her first ex why?
Just to be clear, what I read is that the case was not reopened, it was never closed.
I don't get what you are saying. "Future malicious prosecution?" You mean like a defendant suing because he got prosecuted but found not guilty?????????? No such animal.
I can't figure out what you are getting at.
" The motive doesnt make sense. Why did she want to kill the kid? "
It appears she wanted to frame her ex-husband of hiring the neighbor teen boy of murdering (attempting to murder since she killed the boy in self defense ) her and their son.
If the prosecution is correct, she wanted to kill the teenager, and during the investigation have the "diary" found which would implicate the first husband.
She was afraid of losing custody of the son she had with him...she also claimed the ex abused the kid...did you read the entire article? They had a history of contentious litigation.
Image courtesy of www.rexxfield.com © Rexxfield, LLC
She wanted to kill the kid to set up her ex-husband Pittman. There was a journal found in Wehde's handwriting saying that Pittman had hired Wehde as a hitman - the theory is that Tracey Roberts tricked Wehde into writing it and then killed him.
Her visit to the newspaper editors' house three days later and her appearance on Montel Williams' show suggest she is a drama queen. Something very wrong with her history - armchair diagnosis says she has borderline personality disorder - everyone is against her and she is justified in doing whatever she needs to do to survive.
If the article said anything about the custody of her children I missed it but I hope they're with their fathers.
She's made a lot of accusations against different people that couldn't be substantiated. Far fetched accusations.
The article said this boy that she shot was special needs. This story doesn't make any sense. She's changed the story several times, too.
These kind of wackos who just want attention, need to be avoided at all costs.
I had read it, but the pieces didn't make sense to me. thanks for explaining.
Sounds like YOU may have or had a 20 yr old son who fits your description.
My FOUR sons, at age 20 were already in management jobs or in the Marines. My grandson, by age 20, was serving in the AIRBORNE - They all grew up responsible young men. (Sorry yours doesn't seem to have.)
I find your assumption laughable. And if you have/had a son that fits your description - well, that says a lot about you - "apparently. "
There's an old saying that's applicable here ~ just because you are paranoic doesn't mean people aren't out to kill you.
Now that is a drama queen. Poor kids, poor husbands and poor young dead man.
I am happy for you. and don't take credit for it it is from God.
My kids had all the right stuff, desks, lamps, own rooms, pencils, Scouts, church stay at home mom. One led a charmed life and one had a very hard time. I am not yet a grandparent. I am still trying to shepherd the one.
Don't fret about maniac. My observation is that 1 out of three kids from a good family is common sense challenged and struggles in their own clueless-ness for years.
Thanks, I can't tell you how challenging it has been.
With him dead, he could not refute the journal contents implicating her ex as having hired a 'hit man'.
evil evil
And your despicable statement says MUCH more about you.
The poster was making a general comment about 20 year old males, akin to 'all men are pigs'.
Ask any male on this forum, if they were 20, got a 'come-hither' from a good-looking woman would they walk away? Trust me, not even your sainted sons, raised by you to be paragons of virtue are gonna do that.
And YOU, from your pious holier-than-thou pedestal, cast aspersions at a FReeper who knows your sons better than you.
Don't believe me, ask your hubby (although I fear he may be fearful of telling you the truth).
Your children and grand children will be just fine.
I think maniac's proudness of his children got
a little clouded with my kids are better than yours mentality.
20 years old is hardly a kid.
The day I turned seventeen 55 years ago I enlisted in the US Army, I did not consider myself a kid even at that age.
Apparently, whomever divorces her goes through hell. She accuses them of all sorts of things to try and screw up their lives. It appears that she is a good hater.
What an arrogant, stupid comment you made in assuming anything about yldstrk or his progeny.
Some future DA trying to make a name for himself might try to prosecute just because technically there is no statute of limitations for murder. The "no bill" gives quite a bit of protection against future prosecution of someone who kill in self-defense.
I'm agreeing with you. I don't understand what her motive was. And the detectives seem very vague about what they think happened.
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December 6, 2012 · Print This Article
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New Balance 801 Recovery Slip-On Sneaker - Womens
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Ralph Lauren Collection Katrin Leather Peep Toe Sandal
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Hello. I'm so glad i found this site bc i feel strongly about attachment parenting. This is my first post. I am really in need of some help and advice relating to breastfeeding problems. 5 years ago, i had breast augmentation surgery. I researched it VERY well at the time. Unfortunately, having children wasnt really a priority for me. I cant say that i didnt want any or didnt see myself having any but it was a non issue, if that makes any sense. Sadly, it never even registered on my radar screen. Therefore, breastfeeding certainly wasnt a priority for me. Oh, how things have changed. I am a first time mom now and am absolutely AMAZED at how strong of a desire i have, to breastfeed. It's like a built in biological instinctual undeniable drive inside me and it has ended up meaning more to me than anything almost. The problem is, my surgery has affected my supply. I am REALLY REALLY struggling with how to cope with the fact that i am having such a hard time and my baby is ultimately suffering bc of a decision that i made. certainly it was in the past and it wasnt intentional but that doesnt make me feel any better. why doesnt it? everyone keeps trying to tell me that and it doesnt help. I am being super hard on myself but i dont feel i deserve not to be that way. I am VERY VERY natural minded, which i know flies in the face of the surgery in the first place. I have changed a lot. I had a home birth, unmedicated....i am choosing not to vaccinate (again after thorough research) and i am practicing attachment parenting. I feel that most important piece of the puzzle is breastfeeding. am i putting too much pressure on myself and too much emphasis on it? I read posts on this forum from women with breast cancer who can not breastfeed and my heart goes out to them. I feel i am different bc i CHOSE this. please help?
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dealing with enormous guilt over breastfeeding
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dealing with enormous guilt over breastfeedingTags: None
i was really hoping to find some words of encouragement or advice on ways to cope. I am aware that the problem i have is bc of a choice i made and that choice isnt necessarily going to make me too popular on a site like this where everyone is very natural minded.
Maybe i am oversensitive and fragile right now. I am not trying to offend anyone, i promise. I am being most sincere. Initially, I debated on whether to post but then I saw that there were bottlefeeding with love threads and other posts and thought maybe there would be women out there who would understand. i'm not looking for sympathy or trying to be melodramatic.
i'm just having a very hard time. anyway, that is all i wanted to add, for what it's worth.
New Forum Member
- Mar 2008
- 1326
Don't be alarmed that you haven't gotten a response yet... sometimes it takes a day or two. I hear that you feel conflicted and responsible for your low milk production. I would encourage you to still "mother at the breast" with a supplementer as ANY milk from you is still very good for your baby, as is the actual comforting skin to skin. I am sure you will get more varied replies, maybe with others in your particular situation. You are doing the best you can in your circumstance and I commend you for reaching out.
How old is your baby? Do you know anyone else currently breastfeeding that you might consider a milk sharing agreement?
thank you for your response. maybe i should have more patience! sorry.
I have a sister who is breastfeeding however i dont know how i'd get the milk bc she isnt close by (3 hour drive each way) and it has to be kept cold and it's very expensive to ship it refrigerated, i would imagine. I dont even know if that would be possible.
I have looked into milk banks but they have limited amts of milk and are primarily for the NICU on pediatrician referral from what i've gathered.
Do you think any amount of milk is better than no milk, even if it's only 5 oz per day of breastmilk?
Also, how much milk do they start to need once they start solids. She is 6 months now. i know they gradually, very gradually, start to rely less on milk but that it's still the main source of nutrition. For example, they say a bf baby takes in on average, 24oz of milk per day until 6 months. Then what happens?
she wont use the SNS. i have one and she will not suck when the tube is in her mouth. it is REALLY hard to get her to take ANY form of supplementation. We've mixed bm with her solids but you only get a small amt that way.Last edited by firsttimemom; 05-27-2008, 11:32 AM. Reason: forgot to add
New Forum Member
- Mar 2008
- 1326
Originally posted by firsttimemom View PostDo you think any amount of milk is better than no milk, even if it's only 5 oz per day of breast milk?
How do you that that that is the only amount? If you are comparing to the pumping amount--you may have more, babies get milk much better then pumping.
So have you breastfed and formula in a bottle her first 6mo? What was the arrangement. I was referring to the little tiny tube attached to your breast and right next to your nipple when she is breastfeeding. Or possibly syringing (special feeding syringe) into her mouth while breastfeeding... But I think maybe you are past that because of her age.....
Don't dismiss milk from your sister. There are ways to get it efficiently and cheaply. Maybe a drive once a month to get frozen supply in a cooler?
You have a lot of questions! Keep them coming!
You are right. i should get her to freeze the milk. The 5 oz/day is the amt i am assuming she'd be willing/able to give me since she'd be starting to pump just for me (she doenst normally).
I was told that frozen milk has none of the benefits of breastmilk though bc the live elements have been frozen. Is that true? I still want the frozen milk, dont get me wrong but i thought/think it isnt nearly as good as fresh.
I can pump but only get something from the left if i double pump since the letdown reflex on the left is damaged from the surgery. Hence there is less milk in that breast bc i can not get her to nurse it very often. The right side has good and bad days. i find one main effect of the surgery is that my output is VERY finicky. one day i can be dry, next day i will have some milk.
So far we have managed on just breastmilk but her weight gain is low (25th percentile).
I have so much guilt over this as well but when we try to supplement her, she wont take it! it's so stressful.
New Forum MemberJunior Forum Member
- Apr 2008
- 125
SAHM to Kaitlynn (11/26/93), Arianna (7/3/03), and Mackenzie (5/22/07)
Originally posted by firsttimemom View PostDo you think any amount of milk is better than no milk, even if it's only 5 oz per day of breastmilk?
Are you currently supplementing with formula? How do you think your baby is doing with the amount of milk you have?
The decision you made in the past is in the past and it does not affect your ability to love and nurture you child. I'm sure you will be thanked for everything you have done!
New Forum Member
- Apr 2008
- 585
Heather M, mom to Reannon age 5 and Shane age 3 and Tessa Born 4/17/09
just because she is in the 25th % doesnt mean she is not getting enough......does she have enough wet diapers for her age?? My DD (who I pumped exclusively for for 14months, she always had BM but it was in a bottle) had all she wanted of bm and was in the 12th% at 1 yr, but she was growing and healthy and had enough wet diapers so I never worried about it. 25th% is not 'off the chart' for being small, she is still on there!!
I think 5oz is better than nothing, she will still get some of the benefits!!
When I was EPing for my DD I tried to give her fresh as that is the best way to give it but after a year I started weaning myself off the pump gently,it took 2 months to dry up but I gave her frozen milk too. It still has everything they need....fresh IS best but frozen comes in a close second IMO!!!
Even with the cost of shipping the milk frozen, it would still probably be cheaper than formula, man that stuff is expensive!!
Good luck!!
Hi FirstTime Mom.
I can hear the pain and anguish in your post, and you are struggling with some big emotions. Remember, though, that there is a difference between "guilt" and "regret". "Guilt" is when you knew better and chose to do something anyway, while "regret" is when you didn't know and made the best decision you could at the time. You were younger. You weren't thinking of kids. Nobody told you it could cause a problem breastfeeding, and you wouldn't have known how important that would be to you anyway. You made the decision that you thought was best for you at that moment in time given the circumstances at the time. You really need to forgive yourself for that, and let go of the guilt. You regret the decision, and would change it if you could, but it's over now and you need to look forward. You are doing so many wonderful things for your baby. Nobody is perfect, and nobody has the "ideal" situation. If you need to feed him with formula, thank god there is formula available! You are NOT "choosing" to bottlefeed. You have a medical condition. It was an elective surgery then, yes, but the point is that it that you don't have a choice now. You never made the conscious choice not to breastfeed. And, the even bigger point is that even if you had "chosen" to bottlefeed, you could still form a strong, secure, loving attachment with your baby and could still practice attachment parenting. You can bond over feeding ("bottle nursing") just like you would with breastfeeding. It's comes more naturally with breastfeeding, but it can be done with a bottle, and there are moms here who have done it and who have wonderfully healthy relationships with their children. If you are feeling guilt every time you try to feed your baby, that could inhibit your ability to really enjoy the moment and to bond with whatever feeding method you use.
Any amount of breastmilk you can get for your baby will help nutritionally, so keep pursuing those options. But remember the attachment bond can be the same. Be gentle with yourself, and forgive yourself just like you would a friend in the same situation.
New Forum Member
- Mar 2008
- 1326
Originally posted by WildBlueberry View PostAny amount of breastmilk you can get for your baby will help nutritionally, so keep pursuing those options. But remember the attachment bond can be the same. Be gentle with yourself, and forgive yourself just like you would a friend in the same situation.
Here is a link toward ideas for shipping human milk.
Do you have a local group?
See, I told you people would respond!
Thank you so much for all of your posts. I am really struggling. I know regret is different from guilt. I have both but the regret is so huge...all i can think of is why why why did i do it? it's tormenting me on the inside. it's affecting all aspects of my life including work and my friends and family. It's just really horrible in every way. I havent really enjoyed my daughter very much bc of the stress involved. imagine if every time you sat down to nurse, you felt a panic attack coming on.
Namoifreidrickmd: thank you for that link. i am interested in the milk share program bc i talked to my sister at lunch and she has two kids and doesnt know when she'll have time to pump consistently. I am in Canada though and i am not sure if i can join up as a recipient for that reason. Do you happen to know?
I know any amount of breast milk is such a good thing and i am glad to hear that frozen is still nutritious.
Thanks so much
Forum Administrator and Casualty of Love
- Mar 2008
- 1731
dedra---leader, api of stark co., ohio
MomMom and devoted wife to 3 creatures of delight
i'm unsure from your posts if you have been exclusively bfing up to this point. could you clarify? i think it's awesome that you have been nursing through all of this. she's had 6 mos. of BM!! that's something for you to celebrate! that's way more than most babies in this country. what a gift you have given her!
also, could you clarify if you have actually started solids? if she has, you can definitely continue to nurse and relax about your supply.
thank you for sharing your story. there are many other moms out there like you. i know that we get the reputation of being "natural-minded" people and that may be true of many of us, but i think if you stick around, you'll find there is a wide variety here.
hi paxmamma.
sorry to be brief--have baby with me here.
i am excl bf to this point but we syringe her a lot of breastmilk when she hasnt seemed to nurse well. i pump and try to stim my supply and give her what i get.
what do you mean by, if you have started solids, you can relax about your supply?
she has started on pureed foods. i mix it with breastmilk
today i find she is nursing a lot less.
i find that i also am having a v hard time getting a letdown on either side and limited swallowing
how much bm do you think a baby can nurse in 30 sec to one min of actual drinking/swallowing?
soemtimes that is all she gets, usually actually. somehow she gained this week, must be the solids.
pls respond re how i can relax about my supply if i have started solids.
i know i should be hapy with 6 months but it has been so damn hard and i want so badly to continue
Hi firsttimemom. I am a lurker who has decided to say hi.... hello everyone!
Well, I think what paxmamma was meaning by the you can relax now comment is that now that your LO is on solids she will be getting some of her nutrition from them and therefore the 'weaning' process has begun. Maybe you could now try doing the puree without the milk added and save the stuff that you pump for other occasions? Like maybe to freeze for later if you find you can no longer feed... would give you that little bit longer
I am sorry that you are having such negative feelings about the whole thing. As everyone else has said you are doing a great job! The fact that you are so worried about it now just goes to show how much you care, and because you have stuck with it for these six months it also shows that you are willing to do what it takes to look after your LO in the best way possible..... you have already proven you are a great Mum!
As far as how much she can be getting in 30 sec to a min... well its hard to say really as it does depend on your letdown and your baby. My little boy often has really quick stops at the breast and seems to be very satisfied. He really only ever takes longer than about three min if he is wanting a cuddle. And with the let down - its no wonder you are having trouble with that if you are so stressed out at every feed!!! Have you tried something like feeding her while in a nice bath or doing something equally relaxing? It might help.
As long as she is gaining weight and is happy then I think it sounds like everything is going along swimmingly as far as she is concerned! Its just her mama who needs some much needed hugs and encouragement! Remember that you are doing all that you can, you cannot change the past and you are not doing your daughter and favors by beating yourself up! We have all done things in the past that we regret, forgive yourself, its the best thing you can do for your daughter. You are doing a great job. As paxmamma said, you have already given her a great gift of your milk these last six months, more than a lot of mothers do. GL. Your a lovely, caring, thoughtful Mum.
thank you mumtoone! your post was so nice. i really appreciate you taking the time to write it. hugs to you.


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|Posted by Bea on September 15, 2002 at 10:14:10:
|In response to Re: Can Toto or American Standard take home center store parts?
: Unless you buy one of the expensive one piece units the do require some proprietary parts, American Standard uses all generic parts.
: : When a new flapper or new toilet seat or other such part is needed, can Totos or American Standards take these? Or do they require specially made parts?
I have an older American Standard wall-mounted toilet (orange) and need a new seat/lid for it. None of the stores in my area carry these - the holes don't match up (mine are farther apart than those sold in stores). Is it possible to get a replacement lid for these, or do I need a whole new toilet?
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text: Robert Pattinson's dominated Entertainment Weekly's covers for the last three years, but unless you've meticulously collected each one, have you ever stopped to consider how much his look has changed? From the awful make-up of the first cover to his strange expression in this year's Fall Preview, we've seen Rob through that awful, dirty haircut and Kristen Stewart's withering stares. In approximate chronological order, here's RPattz's ever-changing mug.


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Thread: Themed Families..
April 20th, 2014 10:49 AM #246Senior Member
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- Jan 2014
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DS/DS: Gordon Lyon/Hugh Leopold
DS: Oliver Laurent
DD/DD/DD: Ainsley Lune/Delia Leonne/Jamie Lucette
DS: Slater Leandre
DS/DD: Marco Lucien/Fanny Leia
Jenson and Eliza have 7 children, 5 girls and 2 boys, including g/g twins. The first names should come from underrated actors/actresses. And the middle names should come from war heroes.Ladies: Zelda, Sally, Maia, Claire
Gents: Wesley, Ezekiel, Malachi, Gideon
April 20th, 2014 11:21 AM #248
April 20th, 2014 11:58 AM #250Senior Member
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Jack & Carrie
DS: Neo Dagney
DD: Amethyst Kale
DD: Daffodil Aviv
DS: Julius Rock
DD: Emerald Hawthorn
DD: Juno Pearl
DD: Ruby America
DS: Augustus Leo
DD: Aster Isabel
DD: Octavia Hal
DS: Scorpio Pine
DD: Snow Olwen
Penelope and Jake have 6 children, you pick the genders. The first names should be Irish and the middle names should be related to having red hair.Ladies: Zelda, Sally, Maia, Claire
Gents: Wesley, Ezekiel, Malachi, Gideon
April 20th, 2014 12:03 PM #252Senior Member
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J: Suvi Jane
F: Viola Valentine (Viola/violet - birth flower)
M: Easton Marcelo (Easter)
A: Autumn Avril
M: Maja Maple
J: Junius Winter
J: Leo Ulysses (Zodiac sign)
A: Poppy Augustina (Poppy - birth flower)
S: Nina Spring (Ninth month)
O: Harlow Eve (All Hallow's Eve)
N: Nova Bloom (Spring)
D: Decima Soleil
(This is going by Australian seasons)
Sibylla & Matthew have 9 children (genders up to you), each named after cartoon characters that are not exactly intended for children. For example, one daughter's name is Daria. Their middle names should be classics, containing an "i".
April 20th, 2014 02:14 PM #254
Penelope & Jake
Aislinn Ginger
Fiona Scarlett
Erin Poppy
Kiera Ruby
Declan Jasper
Lucas Radley
Sibylla & Matthew
Daria Elizabeth
Robin Felicity
Jasper Edwin
Charlie Oliver
Archer William
Meg Lavinia
Sasha Genevieve
Winry Isabelle
Lana Catherine
Nate and Jessa have 8 kids - 3 girls and 5 boys. Their first names all begin and end with different letters - not repeats between siblings. All of the kids' middle names rhyme.


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The Dirt is back in action again this week with submissions from the first 2 members of Gotta Dance Dirty, jonahberry and Tropicool (aka Dr. Schlongo, aka Daddy O'Climax, aka David LaMelza). We've put together 10 great tracks, new and old, for your listening pleasure, so kick back, relax, and enjoy these tasty tunes with a tall frosty IPA in one hand and a naughty school girl in the other.
• Donovans – FX1 (Canblaster & Panteros666 Remix) √+
Parisian duo, Donovans, released their FX1 EP in early June on Cheap Thrills, equipped with a fantastic remix from Rynecologist and this one from Canblaster and Panteros666. I just can't get enough of the unique sound of Canblaster. Make sure to pick up his Totem EP out on Marble now.
• Brenmar – Taking It Down (Original Mix) [Beatport] √++
Now this track was released at the end of last year, but its inclusion in ///BONES' most recent Summer Mix has invoked a revival of this song for me. Brenmar is also one of my top producers, as his sound meshes the aggressiveness of hip hop with the smooth sensibilities of great House music. Big fan.
• Joachim Garraud – Bang Bang (Dalcan Rmx) √+
This is a throbbing remix from French producer, Dalcan, off of Joachim Garraud's most recent EP, Bang Bang. The legendary DJ/producer has had an extremely busy spring and summer, releasing a full lenth album, 3 EPs, a release on Toolroom's Ibiza 2011 compilation, and seminal sets at Ultra Music Festival and Coachella. The Frenchman will also be playing live at Lollapalooza in a collaborative set with the Jane's Addiction rocker, Perry Farrell. Wow.
• MyKill – Falling (Original Mix) √+
MyKill is a DJ from San Francisco that makes some fantastic funky ass disco. I actually found this track on our good friend Nate's blog a while back and got into it again just in time for summer. Head on over to MyKill's Soundcloud for some more great groovin' goodies.
• The 2 Bears – In My Brain Is Like A Computer (Telling Me What To Do) (Original Mix) [Beatport] √++
Raf Rundell and Hot Chip's Joe Goddard are The 2 Bears. They make music and they wear bear costumes. Both are fantastic. Give this one a listen from their latest EP, Bear Hug.
Foreword from Tropicool:
These tunes are meant to make you infectiously dance in a unstoppable sex-craved fashion. Handle with care; both your marbles and your lady friend(s). Stay horny my friends. (all are check plusses DUH!)
Tribal Disco
• Shindu – Happy House (Herr Styler Remix)
I was first captivated by the original in the Magician's Magic Tape 11, only to then learn about the stellar remix package. Herr Styler adds a very tropicool vibe showcasing tribal drums, flutes, and cowbells nestled atop a funky keys riff. This song never ceases to make me smile, take off my clothes, or eat raw meat. It's the opening tune to Tropicool's "A Turd in the Punch Bowl" mix.
Tropical Disco Funk
• Beni – It's a Bubble (Round Table Knights Remix)
Everything we love from Round Table Knights has been eclipsed by their newest remix of Beni's "It's a Bubble". Steel drums, Funky bubble sounds, and an infectious rhythm disco that leads me to believe I have restless leg syndrome. Get creepy, and don't go home at night. "Hey street walker!"
Sexy Funky House
• Telonius – Last Night (Extended Club Version)
Telonius is a very sexual creature. Listen to the lyrics; live the music video. He has inseminated an incredible single here that's dancefloor, afterhours, and bedroom ready, all hot and bothered. Fucking element of sexy house, funk, and disco all in one has truly created an infectious, jean-tightening, jam!
Nudisco Glory
• Mighty Mouse – Between the Pavement and the Stars (Edwin Van Cleef Remix)
We can always expect pure genius when a song drops under the knife of Edwin Van Cleef or is presented live by the Mightiest of the Mouses. These 2 juggernauts have come together to transform like Megatron and create one Decepticon ass-kicking tune. Euphoric yet groovy, very full bodied. Includes lyrics. Pregnant woman should not consume this beverage.
• Toro Y Moi – Still Sound (Voodoo Bear Remix)
I first heard this jam in the Mustang June Mix, and as the corners of my mouth began to curl up in utter happiness, the funky stings hit and I lifted out of my seat. What a glorious feel-good song. Summer daze, cold beers, and the hot curves of your buddy's sister. Truly a song of the senses; Get amongst it!


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