text:
Fire Craig MacTavish
Jonathan Willis
February 02 2009 05:30PM
I've been a fan of Craig MacTavish for a long time. I defended him last season, and I defended him at the start of this season. He's a smart guy, and has done a good job getting unheralded players to perform beyond what one would reasonably expect to be their level of ability. People look back at the early days of Lowe/MacTavish and say "mediocrity", but maybe they don't remember the budget this team was run on pre-lockout; there was a certain joy to watching players like Smyth, Smith, Marchant, Grier, Niinimaa, etc. put their nose to the grindstone and grit out a playoff spot while team with a higher payroll and greater individual talent swung and missed. Then there was the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals run, and great things seemed to be in the making.
The two seasons following the Cup Run weren't great. The team was brutally unbalanced entering 2006-07, and Kevin Lowe seemed determined to undo every good decision he made the previous year. The defensive corps was dismantled, and entered the year with a top three of Daniel Tjarnqvist, Jason Smith, and Steve Staios. It was so bad at one point that Danny Syvret, Bryan Young, and Sebastien Bisaillon were all on the active roster. I gave MacTavish a pass that year, as the team had been so obviously mismanaged that expecting a playoff spot was folly.
2007-08 was a great building year; the team rode Mathieu Garon's stellar play (especially in the shootout) and dressed a truckload of rookies, most of who impressed. They missed the playoffs by a hair, but seemed to be clearly a team on the rise, and MacTavish probably deserved some credit for it.
Enter 2008-09. Kevin Lowe, despite an apparent aversion to having more than one veteran centre on the team, had an excellent summer before being promoted. The Oilers had a young group of forwards, but that was balanced somewhat by an excellent top-four on the back end, and a legitimate tandem in Garon and Roloson. It wasn't a perfect roster, but it was a vast improvement over what Craig MacTavish had been given in previous seasons.
Unfortunately, Craig MacTavish has been coaching like a man unhinged for much of the season. For example:
1. Ladislav Smid: Left Wing
So, when developing a 22-year old defenceman with 132 NHL games who is finally starting to emerge after looking like he was in over his head for the past two seasons, what's the best place to use said defenceman? On left wing, of course! Or in the press box -- because those are the two places where promising defencemen blossom.
2. Fernando Pisani: Centre
Looking down the roster, I see five natural centres (Horcoff, Gagner, Cogliano, Pouliot and Brodziak). Only one of them is a veteran, and my preferred choice for third-line centre (a good one choice: Marty Reasoner) was dealt away by the GM. Still, I have a) a speedster with some size issues b) a former first-round pick who's shown well defensively in parts of two previous seasons and c) a face-off ace and regular penalty-killer to chose from. My solution? Convert Fernando Pisani, a stalwart defensive presence to centre, moving two centres to the wing and dropping Brodziak to the fourth line. Of course, Pisani can't win a face-off, and struggles against tough opposition, so I respond by leaving the line together, and playing them against lesser players, until Pisani's injured.
3. Dustin Penner: Fat and Lazy
I have a player who was my second-best power-play point producer (behind only Ales Hemsky) and best power-play goal scorer last season returning again. Logically, it makes sense to bump him to the second unit, because I have another player coming in (Cole) who is a) historically a poor power-play option and b) playing out of his normal position to replace him. Makes good sense, right? And since this guy has only once played tough minutes (last season, with Horcoff and Hemsky), it makes sense to toss him on his off-wing with Pisani as his centre and run him against tough opposition.
In any case, he responds by posting great scoring numbers for his icetime (2.00 PTS/60, behind only to Ales Hemsky) and one of the best +/- numbers on the club. That needs to stop, so I call him out not once but twice in the media as being lazy/inconsistent/etc. Then I healthy scratch him for a couple of games, to be sure he got the message.
4. Staios and Strudwick: It's like having Stevens and Langway on the same pairing
Since I've decided that both the team and Ladislav Smid are best served by him playing LW on the fourth line, or serving as the number seven defenceman, my default third pairing is Staios and Strudwick. I make it easy for them -- lots of minutes against softer opposition and lots of offensive zone draws (despite the fact that I have four offensive defencemen who could make use of those draws to, you know, score), yet they're still getting out-shot by an awful amount. I decide that the best course of action is to praise the pairing in the media.
5. Kyle Brodziak: who needs linemates to succeed anyway?
After my centre juggling earlier, I needed to find somewhere to use Kyle Brodziak. Brodziak was great last year, catching fire along with Stortini and some guy who wasn't quite good enough to be brought back in the summer. I decide to use him with a rotation of Moreau, Stortini, MacIntyre and Jason Strudwick. As an added bonus, I think he can probably handle starting in his own end for every single shift (Brodziak has 205 defensive zone faceoffs and only 91 offensive zone faceoffs, for a difference of 114. The next closest Oiler is Horcoff, who has 66 more defensive than offensive zone draws).
Sadly, Brodziak can't seem to handle even this dream scenario, in a contract year no less. I decide that the solution is to call him out in the media and healthy scratch him as well.
The Final Straw
There are other things that stand out: the love for Liam Reddox, the complete lack of tolerance for any error by Mathieu Garon, using three defencemen on the same power-play unit, running other players out of position, icing a miserable penalty kill and a mediocre power-play, but I only have so much time. Besides, it's all secondary to the cardinal sin that MacTavish committed today.
Days after a 10-2 loss (with no bag skate) and in the same season as a 9-2 loss (with no bag skate), Craig MacTavish decided today following a listless 2-1 loss to Nashville to bag skate the Edmonton Oilers.
He didn't decide to bag skate the whole team, though. Instead, he ran practice, and then picked out his favourite whipping boys -- Dustin Penner, Kyle Brodziak, and Marc Pouliot -- and bag skated the three of them by themselves.
I'm a numbers guy, so I have a certain level of skepticism when somebody floats the chemistry/momentum/gut-check card by me. But the idea of picking out three players who have already been harped on all season, and skating them alone when they were far from the only culprits in this lukewarm season, or even in that last loss, is so repugnant to me that I can't even fathom what made him do it.
You win as a team, you lose as a team, and if need be you bag skate as a team. Craig MacTavish should know better.
It's time for a new coach.
Excellent post Jonathan. MacT has seemed out of sorts all season. Alzheimers in his genes, perhaps? A combination of medications?
welcome aboard Jonathan! Great to have you on the waggon.
February 02 2009, 05:47PM
Wow, I like your Gonads, Finnally you and Brownlee are seeing the light. Do you think you will have less privlages in the locker room? You said everything that fans have said plus more. I think that it should go a lot higher also where management is concerned. Like you said it's time for a change but the people who can change this don't see a problem. The atmosphere also at Rexal has to change, they have to get the fans in the game by not boooooing. It's a start keep up the good work!!!!!!
February 02 2009, 05:56PM
This website has been on fire lately! I like it.
I still don't see a problem with those three being bag skated, after all they have all been non factors for a long stretch, but I will agree that the whole team probably should have suffered rather than just a select few.
If there wasn't a divide in the room between the MacT's favorite sons and the rest before, I don't see how there can't be one now. And when you stack all his crap moves end to end like that, along with convincing arguments as to why there was really no reasonable method to the madness, I can't see any reasonable defense for this guy to keep his job.
Bring on the excuses now MacT fan boys.
February 02 2009, 05:56PM
While I think a change may be necessary, I can't help but feel that MacT's replacement is going to be Huddy or Buchberger rather than a real coach.
I was a Fan Of MacT: the player. As an aging grider, and Captain of a brutal Oiler Squad; I watched him live, in the Saddeldome score a hat-trick. I, along with Willis, backed MacT until this season. It is terribly depressing to watch this proud, intelligent, Oiler icon descend into madness... Even a casual observer of this team can see how poorly MacT is managing his assets this season.
February 02 2009, 06:09PM
Pokie Reddik wrote:
Do you think you will have less privlages in the locker room?
Librarian Mike wrote:
While I think a change may be necessary, I can't help but feel that MacT's replacement is going to be Huddy or Buchberger rather than a real coach.
I totally agree...with the Oilers rarely looking outside the box(Tambellini), you can only assume the promotion will come from within. If there is a coach out there that wants to coach this team please let Tambellini pick the coach so that at the end there will be some accountability. Right now Tambo is running this team under K-LO's guidance and if he wanted to pull the trigger on Mac-T he would face great resistance.
February 02 2009, 06:10PM
I agree 100%, But it will never happen Mac T and K lowe are best friends and I think the only reason Mr Katz bought this team is so that he can hang out with the oilers from the past and chum with the team.We are turning into the Toronto Maple Leafs organization ( The late Harold ballard era) and we dont even realize it.When will someone, anyone get some balls and do something!!! I know one thing, my days as a Oilers season seat holder are coming to an end, I am tired of the Oilers propaganda machine working full time and feeding us fans with bull s_it!!
February 02 2009, 06:12PM
Didn't really see this one coming.
We never really know what goes on within the team. Although I'm interested to see how the team would respond to Mac's firing, we dont really get to see what goes on within the team. Maybe these three were out getting wasted the night before and Mac caught wind of it. All three were benched at some point during the game and all three were out on the ice after the team today.
Penner made one of the laziest plays I've ever had the privilidge of witnessing against Nashville on Sunday. Just standing around as the puck passed him three times just outside the Oilers blue line. He had just jumped on the ice and was gone just as fast. We didn't see him after that.
I agree that some of the moves this year have come from Mac not "keeping it simple" but, I'm not sure that we'll see him fired during this season and maybe not next season either. I give him one year after this and he's gone. Sucks cuz the collective momentum may not last through it all.
February 02 2009, 06:17PM
February 02 2009, 06:20PM
Everyone is really good at pointing out the problem, but people aren't nearly as good at finding the solution. If getting the Oilers into the playoffs were as simple as replacing Craig McTavish, I hope no one seriously thinks that Kevin Lowe would put his personal feelings, whatever they might be, in the way of team success.
Lowe can see there are problems with this team. Fixing them isn't as easy as many make it out to be. In the previous post, I saw a suggestion that we should trade Penner for Frolov. I'm laughing as I type this. Yeah, that would probably work, in the same world where KLowe could sign Tony the Tiger to play first-line center. In our world, though, Frolov isn't going anywhere anytime soon, especially for a guy like Penner.
The big problem with cutting MacT is quite simply who to replace him with. Lowe has him behind the bench because he doesn't have any better options. Who is out there right now with any kind of experience? Someone who is going to come into this room at this point in the year and do something that MacT isn't already trying; someone who isn't bringing in their own personal baggage and is going to get the room to buy in to his system on the eve of the playoff drive; does that person even exist? Whoever you bring in is currently not coaching in the NHL because either A) they had an NHL job and they lost it (not good) or B) they have never had an NHL job, (also not good).
Yeah, Lowe could take a chance on a Junior guy; maybe you get Boudreau, maybe you get Hartsburg; you spins the wheel, you takes your chances. Or maybe you promote an assistant from somewhere; Charlie Huddy as head coach would be a big improvement, right? Or maybe Tambo steps down and looks after the coaching himself; that's a surefire playoff ticket, right?
Suggesting that MacT be fired is no more a solution than suggesting that we should pick up Frolov. You have to explain how by firing MacT, this frees up space for the next guy who will get the job done. And that guy is . . .
February 02 2009, 06:23PM
"The fans and Media need to readjustment their expectations of Penner." - Craig MacTavish in preseason after telling reportors that Penner would be playing on a checking line with Moreau and Pisani.
Fast forward a month or two and sure enough MacTavish turned into what he had just prior warned about.
At the time of his benching Dustin Penner led the team in the plus/minus catagory with a +8 rating.
At the time of Penner's benching Edmonton had a negative GF/GA differential.
MacTavish is so brilliant that he took out his best 5X5 player (according to the +/- metric) out of rotation for a team losing at 5X5.
What exactly was were these new expectations that MacTavish was referring to? Leading the team in +/- while playing in a checking role with Moreau and Pisani is nothing to sneeze about nevermind benching material.
"Oh but he didn't work hard"
Who gives a Robin Brownlee how hard he works if he he's delivering results. Reddox the little engline that could has the worst Corsi rating and the worst GFON/GAON differential (-.98) out of anyone on the team not named SMac but MacTavish thinks he's the cat's meow because he works hard and accomplishes nothing.
Penner was the 13th most proficient PP goal scorer last year and MacTavish took him off the PP this year in favor of Cole. Indefensible - yet the local media likes to shift the blame of MacTavish's self-inflicted wounds anywhere but the source.
February 02 2009, 06:23PM
Ender the Dragon wrote:
You have to explain how by firing MacT, this frees up space for the next guy who will get the job done. And that guy is...
Kevin Lowe, or Charlie Huddy, for the rest of the season. After that, go all out for a replacement.
This sort of favoritism cannot be tolerated. The team cannot see it tolerated.
Thank you...I've been a pretty big MacT supporter in the past too, but for the reasons you've stated, enough is enough. Every point you've raised here is valid, and it's getting ridiculous...I like MacT...he could be a color commentator or something (he's got the good looks for TV, and yes, I went there) but I've seen enough of him as coach.
February 02 2009, 06:27PM
Whether MacTavish inherited a team full of Crosby's or a team full of Stortini's is irrelevant - his role is exactly the same; extracting every morsel of talent out of the players that he DOES have. It's common sense to anyone and everyone that this team isn't living up to potential.
February 02 2009, 06:31PM
Jonathan Willis wrote:
And that guy is… Kevin Lowe, or Charlie Huddy, for the rest of the season. After that, go all out for a replacement.
So my question then becomes this; if you are emplacing one of these two fine gentlemen behind the bench, are we still expecting the team to make the playoffs? (Because I don't see that happening, myself . . .) And if that isn't the expectation, then why bother?
Just a question, what would we talk about if our team was as good as say the Sharks or the Bruins??
R-DAWG wrote:
Just a question, what would we talk about if our team was as good as say the Sharks or the Bruins??
My guess is planning the parade route!
February 02 2009, 06:40PM
Thank you Jonathan Willis. Best post by far, and for that I grant you the keys to the Fire MacT Bandwagon for the month of February. It's awesome to see a MacT supporter converted to the dark side. We welcome you with open arms, and need I say it's about damn time. Welcome Willis.
February 02 2009, 06:43PM
@ Ender the Dragon:
You bring up some valid points. Firing MacT isn't the quick fix solution this team needs. There are still some glaring holes that need to be filled with on ice personnel. But really how long can you continue, year after year to get the exact same results, no matter which players we have on the ice? How long before you finally realize it's time to take a chance on trying something new? How many times has it been now that players have been run out of town for underachieving, and then go on to have solid years with another team, while the Oilers continue to barely make the playoffs?
You can only try and jam a square peg into a round hole for so long before you realize that something in this equation isn't working.
I think people are being a bit hasty in thinking that our only problem is MacT and that getting rid of him will answer all our prayers and lead us straight to the cup. There is a lot of other areas we need to look at for sure. But I think it's been long coming for the team to look at other options behind the bench. If it doesn't work out, that's fine, at least they tried something new rather then being complacent with mediocrity.
February 02 2009, 06:48PM
Thank you!!!
I have been saying it since the start of the 06 season.
@ Ender the Dragon:
Sometimes I can see a change being as good as a rest. Some teams respond very well once their coach is fired (Chicago?). At this point I think a fire hydrant would be an improvement.
I think Bucky did a great job with his AHL squad, which is why he is up here (not because he is an old boy, as some people are wont to speculate). Maybe he is "the guy" maybe it's Billy Moores... maybe it's Bob Mancini (after all most of our team is "developing", right?).
February 02 2009, 06:50PM
Oh and that Penner for Frolov trade is absolutely unbelievable. Who do they think is running L.A anyway? JFJ?
February 02 2009, 06:54PM
20 K Fire Mact petition get it done??
Jon: The arguments you make in points 1 through 5 are glaring examples of questionable decisions MacTavish has made this season. Your conclusion, however, is a bit naive.
First, I know you weren't at Millennium Place, so you've obviously been caught up in having what MacTavish put Brodziak, Penner and Pouliot through characterized as a "bag skate." I didn't see it as such. You're right about these three players having plenty of company in terms of players who didn't perform well against Nashville, but in the last 20 years I've seen a handful of players -- not just the Black Aces -- put through extra work after main practice is over plenty of times. It's not common, but it's not a once-in-season situation, either.
Second, Brodziak isn't a MacTavish whipping boy. In fact, based largely on glowing reviews by Kelly Buchberger, Kyle is one of the players MacTavish really wants to see succeed. That's just a fact, even if skating him extra might seem like an odd way to show it.
Third, the win as a team lose as a team sentiment is a time-tested cliche that applies in many circumstances, but that doesn't translate to all players being treated the same in the real world. For instance, "optional skates" aren't really optional for all players -- as Robert Nilsson found out. There's a rule of thumb that rookies, younger players and role players attend. At the same time, certain veterans, especially if they've played heavy minutes, have been given the latitude by MacTavish to opt out of practices that aren't optional. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. Again, that's a case where all players aren't treated the same in the real world. Happens with other teams, too.
Lastly, it doesn't matter if you or I or anybody outside the dressing room finds what MacTavish did today "repugnant." What matters is what the players think. If the way MacTavish handled the situation today and the way he's handled some other issues this season have the players tuning out and turning off, then he's in trouble. I've been trying to find out if that's the case and I haven't heard it -- not even off the record -- yet.
There's arguments to be made against the way MacTavish has used certain players this season, and you made them, but citing the singling out of players in the context of what happened today as the last straw is, like I said, a bit naive.
February 02 2009, 06:56PM
Charlie Huddy is also a cancer in the room, not to many players from the past liked him or respect him.
February 02 2009, 07:02PM
@jeanshorts - I think you've hit something important here. MacT's made a lot of questionable decisions (as Jonathan did a great job pointing out). But how much of this is him trying to compensate for the holes in the lineup and for a team that despite his ability, he does not know how to work with?
How else to explain some of the decisions to go with young guys like Reddox and old dogs like Moreau and Staios?
I lay a lot of this at the feet of Lowe who overlooked some major flaws in constructing it.
That said, I don't think any other coach has them higher than 5th right now because they are not in the same class as Detroit, San Jose, Chicago or Calgary right now. And I'm sorry, they don't get out of the first round regardless.
So more change is coming and where/when will it happen? I actually think they won't can MacT because they still think they can slip into the playoffs with him, as opposed to seeing a change and them possibly falling off a cliff.
But this is why you're paid the big bucks to make the tough decisions and the fan base is growing impatient for change.
February 02 2009, 07:04PM
@RobinB Ryan Rishaug had a similar story also, namimg these same tree players as whipping boys for macT, Didn't MacT say he had a good history of turning other teams rejects into players? whats he done for Brule? Penner was a problem that Lowe brought in to save face from the Pronger deal which is still a Mystery, 1,2,3 picks now thrown in to the Pronger deal. A bunch of defencesive players can't teach offence plain and simple. Wayne calls it as he sees it.as do a lot of fans.
February 02 2009, 07:10PM
@ oilerdago: Every team has holes. A good coach gets the most out of his lineup/players.
How many players this year are having below average years? That should answer you question.
We always have a excuse for this team. Holes in the lineup is the latest excuse.
February 02 2009, 07:18PM
To follow up on what Robin said, I never got the impression that those three guys were "bag skated" today. I seem to recall that MacT said he and the coaching staff would do whatever it took to help guys who needed help. Seems like MacT was living up to his words as those players (Penner especially) seem to acknowledge that they're not at the top of their games right now. That sounds an awful lot like a coach doing his job.
The rest? Well I'm only a fan so I can't say why MacT does what he does. Sometimes he hints at things though. He's said before that when he plays guys out of position he's trying to get them untracked. Or if we look at this year as a teaching season as much as a "get into the playoffs" season (with so many young guys I could believe that), I can easily see how getting a young D to play offense once in a while might expand his skillset. Again, I'm only guessing here.
February 02 2009, 07:19PM
@ Pokie Reddik: Not Wanye's post; Wanye was converted to a MacT-hater some time ago. This is Jon, one of the last MacT guys in existence. Much more significant . . .
February 02 2009, 07:23PM
@ Curtis
You're right, every team has holes at the start of the season, even Detroit right now has one. But how many games has this team lost because it can't kill a penalty? And yes, it's more than just winning a face off, it's all things that go into a transition from the kind of team MacT can coach to one that he's not figured out yet.
And I think that could also be why Lowe won't let him be fired (as well as the fact that he's his friend).
February 02 2009, 07:29PM
@ CurtisS:
Agreed. Look at Florida. I challenge you to name 5 guys on that team other than Jbow and McCabe. They have one certifiable superstar in Jbow, but other than that it's a long list of guys who would be lucky to be third liners on a lot of other teams. But as of right now they are one point out of a playoff spot and have won 6 of their last 10. Whoever their coach is, he's doing a pretty damn good job with very little resources to work with.
February 02 2009, 07:34PM
jeanshorts wrote:
. . . Firing MacT isn't the quick fix solution this team needs. There are still some glaring holes that need to be filled with on ice personnel. But really how long can you continue, year after year to get the exact same results, no matter which players we have on the ice? How long before you finally realize it's time to take a chance on trying something new? . . .I think people are being a bit hasty in thinking that our only problem is MacT and that getting rid of him will answer all our prayers and lead us straight to the cup. There is a lot of other areas we need to look at for sure. But I think it's been long coming for the team to look at other options behind the bench. If it doesn't work out, that's fine, at least they tried something new rather then being complacent with mediocrity.
JS, are you sure that's you? Very nicely stated.
One minor point I submit to you; Are you sure that 50 games in and hanging onto 8th place by a thread is the time to do it? MacT may not be the best coach in the NHL right now, I'll give you, but he's certainly working his ass off every day to try and get this group of guys he's been given into the playoffs. He may just pull it off. Traditionally, coaching change at this time of year does not a playoff team create. Are you willing to sacrifice a possible playoff berth (and with the race in the West being what it is, it might not even be against the Sharks; Calgary, anyone?) for an immediate new face to hate, or could that change not be accomplished just as well in the off season, just maybe giving a few extra days of hockey than Canucks fans to cheer during? Nothing is guarenteed, of course, but this 'Fire MacT immediately at all costs' mentality that some guys are spewing on here seems to me to be cuting off your nose to spite your face. Over to you, JS . . .
February 02 2009, 07:35PM
@ oilerdago:
Penalty kill didnt get any attention from the coaching staff till what game?? 30 games in and Mact said we as coaches have to do a better job. Now that PK since than would be good for the middle of the pack and alot better than what is was. So is it holes in the lineup or is coaching taking to long to figure things out this year.
I pick the latter. Since we have the same lineup as the first 30 games.
February 02 2009, 07:35PM
the reason for the success and promise from last season is Glencross,what he did for the fourth line and to get the team going,along with some superb leadship of Staios(not his fan but respect him) look at the stats for the last 25 games and see how many wins that line helped with. Gagner and the "kids" didn't win every game for them. but the 3 G's (Gagner, Garon, Glencross) were a big part of it.
February 02 2009, 07:37PM
@ Ender the Dragon: Sorry I meant Jon, I was thinking of wayne though.
February 02 2009, 07:42PM
jeanshorts wrote:
Whoever their coach is, he's doing a pretty damn good job with very little resources to work with.
Funny, we used to say that about MacT.
February 02 2009, 07:48PM
@ Ender the Dragon:
We're already in this spot with him, so we might as well ride it out till the end of the season and see what happens. Like I said I don't think firing him immediately is going to turn us into the San Jose sharks. But I do feel it could be better in the long run for the team to get a new system in place ASAP. The only downside to that is, that if we do make the playoffs, that pretty much guarantee's MacT a free pass for at least another season, regardless of how early our exit is. So for us anti-MacT guys it's kind of a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't scenario really.
I just really think it's time for a changing of the guard. Like I said earlier, it's not the worst thing in the world to try something different when you keep getting less than stellar results on a regular basis.
I fell asleep watching the last game. I've fallen asleep on my couch at least five or six times this year during Oiler games. I have been an absolute Oiler nutcase my entire life...but I'm beginning to lose interst. What is being a fan? You cheer for a team. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. You should always be engaged; either thrilled or enraged but always entertained. These guys bore me. I never ever slept through games played by the terrible teams of the mid 90's...
WOW! Those are some strong arguments! I'm more torn than ever. But no matter how everyone feels, Mac T isn't going ANYWHERE this season. Management has repeated throughout the year and who could move in and guarantee the team will play better? I'm just as upset about the Nashville performance as the rest of you, but had we won the game I'm not so sure we'd be reading a "FIRE CRAIG MACTAVISH" headline...not today anyways...
Sorry. This is about MacT. The fact that we could lose 15-2 tomarrow and MacT will definately keep his job also bores me. It still angers many... but I'm becoming apathetic to the pathetic.
February 02 2009, 08:03PM
I've got no problems with MacT singling out 3 players to have a long talk with and then extra practice. My first thoughts were why the hell wasn't Gilbert included in this group. But then I thought that Gilbert may actually be upset and taking it hard that he f'd up yesterday. Basically he manned up on his mistakes. Something the other 3 and especially Penner didn't do. That's my guess anyhow.
February 02 2009, 08:04PM
All I'm trying to get people to accept is the the possibility that KLowe (and yes, Tambo too, if you think his opinion matters) realize that a coaching change might be good for the team but are waiting for a better time than right now. Now is bad, never is also probably bad. I'm sure they get that. But any time without a better alternative is definitely bad, and they get that too.
Don't you think KLowe understands that if he replaces the coach after another first-round exit, he probably gets to try again next season, but if he pulls the trigger now and the Oilers go from 8th place to 12th, he's looking for a job in the off-season too? OK, so there's self-interest to factor in. But I don't want to see 12th place any worse than Lowe does, so a coaching change tomorrow makes no sense to me either.
February 02 2009, 08:16PM
I dont see how anybody can make the arguement that MacTavish should still be coaching this team.
February 02 2009, 08:22PM
Jack "slacking off at work" Bauer wrote:
I dont see how anybody can make the arguement that MacTavish should still be coaching this team.
I'll hold judgement until we either make or break the playoffs. Till then he ain't goin nowheres. Simple as that.
Fartboy. Not many people are willing to see this season flushed down the can just to see if MakeTea is going to get his act together.
February 02 2009, 08:50PM
Rob wrote:
Fartboy. Not many people are willing to see this season flushed down the can just to see if MakeTea is going to get his act together.
So why not write them out of the playoffs right now like your doing boRe? Cuz right now we are actually IN the playoffs. Thanks for coming out though.


text:
Progressive party
IntroductionProgressive party, in U.S. history, the name of three political organizations, active, respectively, in the presidential elections of 1912, 1924, and 1948.
Sections in this article:
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2012, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
See more Encyclopedia articles on: U.S. History

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Should the Flames Pursue Marc Staal?
Kent Wilson
July 31 2013 12:27PM
On Monday we talked about the Flames potentially targeting Cody Franson thanks to the Leafs less than ideal cap situation. The New York Rangers are currently in a similar situation, with only about $3M in cap space to re-sign RFA Derek Stepan
and John Moore, which might potentially leave Marc Staal available for a song.
Stepan is just 23 years old, but scored 51 points as a sophomore and then usurped Brad Richards as the team's top center last year, managing 44-points in 48-games. He's not going to be cheap to re-sign.
If Stepan costs $4.5M to retain
and Moore $1.5M, the Rags are going to be under water by about $1.5M. Meaning they have to find a way to become cap compliant in a hurry and the days of Slats simply burying a big deal in the minors are gone.
What are the options?
The problem for the Rangers - and for a team like the Flames would could potentially offer cap relief (for a price, of course) - is that almost every player over $3M (aside from Brad Richards - shoulda bought him out) is a fairly key contributor. Rick Nash, Ryan Callahan, Derrick Brassard, Ryan McDonagh, Marc Staal, Dan Girardi and Henrik Lundqvist are the $3M and over crowd. Brassard and maybe Staal are the most expendable of that group, although Brassard went on a nice run upon landing in New York, so I don't see them dumping him.
Marc Staal seems to be the best option. He has battled significant injuries over the last few seasons and seems to be slipping down the depth chart. Staal broke into the league as a capable defensive defender after being chosen 12th overall by NYR in 2005, but has since lost his spot on the top pairing to Ryan McDonagh and Dan Girardi. After overcoming a devastating concussion from 2011 (delivered by brother Eric), Staal rcently suffered an eye injury this season after getting hit with a puck in the face. He appeared in only 21 regular season games and a single playoff game as a result.
Word is Marc is healthy and ready for training camp, but the Rangers seem to have built their blueline with a lot of redundancy in mind this summer just in case. They currently boast 9 NHL defenders (Staal, Moore, McDonagh, Girardi, Michael Del Zotto, Anton Stralman, Justin Falk, Stu Bickel and Aaron Johnson). That's a lot of bodies.
Staal's value to the Rangers has been significantly lowered by the emergence of McDonagh and Girardi. Outside of a shut-down role and given his price point, Staal isn't terribly useful because he is fairly limited offensively (although he has spent some time on the PP and scored more than five goals twice in his career). He would be a decent enough 2nd pairing anchor for a guy like Del Zotto, but at $3.97M per year (with the real dollars escalating to $5.45M by 2014-15), it seems a steep price to pay for Sather and company, especially given their current budgetary needs.
How Good is Marc Staal?
The 26-year old's underlying numbers have been fairly underwhelming for a few seasons now. At one time he faced some of the toughest minutes on the Rangers and kind of tread water, but in 2011 he dropped down the rotation and still got killed. This year in 20-odd games he was middling possession-wise, but probably because he had a fairly cushy zone start ratio (58%). Staal's effect on his teammates possession rates in 2011-12 was pretty deleterious as well.
That's only a small sample of games overall (73) and he has been playing through injury issues for the last two seasons, so it's possible he could overcome those and improve. That noted, Staal has never been one to drive possession in the show, almost always boasting negative absolute or relative corsi rates. For context, McDonagh does a much better job in the same or tougher circumstances by the same metrics, so it makes sense he's bumped Staal down the roster, even absent the injury problems that pushed McDonagh into that role out of necessity.
Staal ticks some of the boxes for Calgary - he's big (6'4", 210 pounds), young, and can throw his body around. There's concussion concerns and it's entirely possible his days of being a capable top line shut-down defender are done. That said, he would still likely slide in as the 3rd or 4th best blueliner on the team if the Flames acquired him. He could also be a useful trade piece in a season or two if he could step in, stay healthy and consistently play top-4 minutes. At the very least, his pedigree would tempt trade partners at the deadline in 2015 (assuming the Flames didn't want to keep him around by that time).
Like the Franson situation, ultimately it comes down to what Staal would cost to acquire. He's a decent asset and a worthwhile addition if the Flames can grab him for pennies on the dollar, but not so much if the Rangers are looking for anything close to market value. He's not the sort of singular player who could change the Flames fortunes, but claiming small, good value bets like this along the road of the rebuild is eventually how you emerge as a contender at the end of it.
Around the Nation
- The season ahead
- How has the Edmonton roster changed from last year?
- Dan Hamhuis is on a pretty team friendly contract
- Leafs VP states incorrect fact about Bozak. Internet will burn
- Arbitration avoided. Zach Bogosian signs for $36M
As someone who as watched Staal play regularly over the past 5-6 years, you are severely undervaluing Staal. He was playing some of his best hockey before the eye injury, and his loss on the blueline showed. McDonagh gets alot of talk for his defensive play, and he rightfully should, but Staal is equal to him or better at shutting offensive stars and plays a much more physical game. He's much better than Girardi as well. His offensive game, while not overly impressive, is pretty solid for a shutdown dman and he has the skating ability to join the rush and get back to defend. His passing is solid as well. On the Ranger's he's a 3-4 defender because McD and Girardi have been that damn good, but on any other team, especially the Flames. He's got a very manageable cap hit as well. I just dont see the Rangers trading him unless they get a considerable return, notably a bonafide top-6 winger.
Also, John Moore is undercontract for another season. Not a free agent right now.
carolina picks him up, as the final inSTAALment. they have the other two brothers plus the slug in the minors. flames need to kick the tires on franson.
You must be delusional... How would Staal be 3rd/4th on the depth chart for the Flames? Because he doesn't put up the same amount of points as the other D-Man??
Staal didn't become a great D-Man based on points, he became one based on how on a daily basis, he would shut down the opposing teams top star, whether it be Crosby, Ovi, Parise, etc.
He hasn't had a full training camp/season the last 2 years. Guarentee you give him this, he is back to being a star D-Man.
Where you think he is no longer a star, past his prime, think the Rangers need to dump him (can buy out richards next year, the salary cap will jump way higher by the time he is a Free agent), think the Flames would be able to get him cheap, is beyond me.
I think the Flames have a chance to get Franson without giving up significant assets.
However Staal is a proven top 4D and a previous 12-overall pick. If the Rangers decided to move him I think there would be a line up of teams interested.
As with Toronto, New York is going to be looking at picks and prospects. While the Flames could consider a 2-round pick and a mid level prospect for Franson I don't think they can afford to get into a bidding war for Staal.
^"on any other team, especially the flames, he's a top-2 defender*"
Didn't this guy just get invited to the Team Canada training camp? Like Alex says, you don't get guys like that for pennies on the dollar. Carolina, on the other hand, is probably willing to trade something real for Marc Staal.
Well it's a moot point anyway, if the Rangers trade Staal it will be to Carolina. Might as well rename them the Carolina Staals.
I doubt a trade could be worked out between Carolina and NYR. I wouldn't be trading Staal to someone in my division, nor would I be trading anything valuable in my division if I was Carolina.
Tampa, on the other hand... But what do they really have? Not to mention they're still in a bit of a cap-bind.
I've read on some Carolina blogs about them debating if they should just trade Skinner for Staal, unite the Staals & solve their D issues for comparable price. I don't think we can compete with that. Leafs will want too much for Franson as well, but we could extort a good pick/prospect if we eat Liles contract for them. It would be almost too easy.
If I'm a GM I would give Rutherford a call and see if he was crazy enough to be seriously considering trading Skinner for M Staal. If he was I would offer Slats whatever it took to get M Staal (within reason)and flip him for Skinner. I am sure Rutherford would rather trade Skinner out of the division.
I doubt it's a possibility, but who knows? Maybe with E&J Staal there they are dumb enough to think that Skinner is expendable? I'd look into it.
It's the only way I trade for M Staal because I believe that the moment he is a UFA he will sign with his brothers anyways.
@everton fc
"I know the Rangers desperately wanted a replacement for Prust."
So did the Flames. After trading him. Twice.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we could afford Staal or Franson (I don't think we would want to give up what's necessary to acquire either - obviously, the kind of assets we need in a rebuild).
I'm just putting on my GMs hat for a minute and trying to look at this logically (not that Sather and Rutherford are the sanest of the bunch); and it makes little to no sense to trade Skinner or Staal in division. I mean, why would you want to force your hand and play Skinner head-to-head 4 or 5 times a year if you're the Hurricanes? Likewise for the Rangers and Staal.
I mean, I understand what you're getting, and you obviously have to believe you're winning the trade either way. But, both guys have been hyped by their respective organizations. You would just think that another team could still offer you something respectable (not saying the Flames), and you wouldn't have to play that guy 4 or 5 times every season for 'x' number of years.
Yeah but if a deal makes sense & is a good hockey deal, it shouldn't matter. Flames have made deals with Colorado before. Those that think its nuts for Carolina giving up Skinner, he didn't have that great of a year last year, they have commited big $$$ to Eric, Jordon & Semin & have a huge hole on D. So from their view it makes sense.
He's probably never going to be the same player as he was before those injuries. The Rangers do have a lot of defenders and will have to move someone out. The only thing is after two years, he would be a UFA and bolt to Carolina for a chance to play with his brothers.
Definitely better defensively than Butler, Russell, O'Brien, Smith, and Wideman. If we can use him for the transition years it would be great. I think the Rangers will probably keep him because he is a core guy and will be needed if they ever get back into a long playoff run.
@Kent Wilson
Rangers have zero interest in moving staal he's the best defender on the rangers. Delzottos the not d man I or anyone else see the rangers moving they have over 34 mill in free cap space next season staal will be signed long term. Delzotto is the guy the rangers are going to move once Stepan re signs with the club.
John Moore isn't an RFA until the end of this season where the Rangers will have more cap space.
Staal for Butler!!!
On a semi-related note, the Flames website seems to have forgotten Butler exists..
Staal for Butler!!!
On a semi-related note, the Flames website seems to have forgotten Butler exists..
Could we add Jackman and take Dorsett back which I believe would add cap relief.
Well, I was tfirst thinking "Yes, go for him" but you sorta convinced me that it wouldn't be a great idea. I'd prefer Franson anyways!
July 31 2013, 01:39PM
@jai kiran
I doubt a trade could be worked out between Carolina and NYR. I wouldn't be trading Staal to someone in my division, nor would I be trading anything valuable in my division if I was Carolina.
Tampa, on the other hand... But what do they really have? Not to mention they're still in a bit of a cap-bind.
July 31 2013, 02:35PM
I've read on some Carolina blogs about them debating if they should just trade Skinner for Staal, unite the Staals & solve their D issues for comparable price. I don't think we can compete with that. Leafs will want too much for Franson as well, but we could extort a good pick/prospect if we eat Liles contract for them. It would be almost too easy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we could afford Staal or Franson (I don't think we would want to give up what's necessary to acquire either - obviously, the kind of assets we need in a rebuild).
I'm just putting on my GMs hat for a minute and trying to look at this logically (not that Sather and Rutherford are the sanest of the bunch); and it makes little to no sense to trade Skinner or Staal in division. I mean, why would you want to force your hand and play Skinner head-to-head 4 or 5 times a year if you're the Hurricanes? Likewise for the Rangers and Staal.
I mean, I understand what you're getting, and you obviously have to believe you're winning the trade either way. But, both guys have been hyped by their respective organizations. You would just think that another team could still offer you something respectable (not saying the Flames), and you wouldn't have to play that guy 4 or 5 times every season for 'x' number of years.
July 31 2013, 04:14PM
Could we add Jackman and take Dorsett back which I believe would add cap relief.
I'd love to have Dorsett here. But you all know that.
As for Staal... Concussions scare me. I think it'd be great if her were re-united with his brothers. That's a good move for Carolina.
Franson still interest me. He's a right-handed shot. And he's no Babchuk!
Not to change topics, but I wonder what would it take to get Dorsett? I could see a guy like him wearing a capital letter on his jersey down the road. I know the Rangers desperately wanted a replacement for Prust.
Cody Franson over Marc Staal any day!! Not to mention Marc Staal might be partially blind in one eye for the rest of his life. He has always been one of the more overrated players in the league for me the past three plus seasons. All the brothers are just riding Eric's coat tails in my opinion.
Brodie! 2 years
July 31 2013, 05:45PM
Brodie! 2 years
2.125 per
Why did it take so long to sign him to such a reasonable bridge contract?? Guess the Flames wore him down... Lol. Nice to think TJ was looking for term and not money!!
*relieved sigh*. I must admit, back in June when we were all arguing with Colin S (et al) about whether to be worried or not... I never thought we'd be here, at the end of July, FINALLY mentioning that Brodie got an extension. I never imagined it would take so long, I must say.
Good contract. I would have liked it to be a bit longer....
although it's really not that long. they haven't even gotten through many of the arbitration cases yet. The late end to the season kind of makes it feel like we've been waiting forever I think. I wasn't at all worried that we'd have a hold out from camp or anything like that.
July 31 2013, 06:30PM
I like this article, and I agree 100% with its overall conclusion.
But the more I look into it, the more and more absolutely convinced I become that Corsi and Fenwick mean absolutely nothing when it comes to defensive defencemen.
I'm not sure why that is, and its certainly not the conclusion I would have expected. But it is my inescapable conclusion after several years of looking into 'advanced stats'.
I have yet to see any valid way to numerically quantify the contribution of defensive defencemen.
July 31 2013, 08:29PM
@The Last Big Bear
It's no secrete that there are no real metrics(at least in the public domain) that measuredefense-first defensemen. If a guy and drive possession or put out points, then he's a statistical loser. Personally, I see a great value in shutdown d-men, but there is measure tools to validate what you believe you are seeing.
@The Last Big Bear
What about more regularly talked about stats like plus minus, hits and blocked shots.
August 01 2013, 04:51PM
Blocked shots means the puck is in your zone and the opposition is getting shots off.
If you can't clear your own zone, you can rack up lots of blocked shots.
Hits depend on which buildings you play in most, because they are counted by the home crew in each arena, and there is a significant difference between buildings.
Plus minus is only good for comparing 2 guys who have the same usage. If your defenceman is only played against the other team's top scorers, and has a crap partner (think Jay Bouwmeester in Calgary with Butler), he's going to have a poor +/-.
I think the closest you can get is total ice time (basically just asking the coach who his best defenceman is), +/-, and GA/60 on the PK for guys who get 1st PK time.
@The Last Big Bear
Further to this: Anton Babchuk is a perfect example of why you can't use blocked shots or +/-. He used to get a lot of blocks, and people used it to defend his own zone play. The fact of the matter is, he was just plain bad. And I can honestly say that I was always surprised to hear how many blocks he had on any given night becase I never remembered a single one.
As for +/-, just look at the top players in that category in any given year. Aside from a couple guys like Bergeron, they're never the same. And they're often bit players on good teams. There's pretty much no repeatability in the stat, and I'd go as far as to say it's NEVER useful for the purposes of player evaluaton. Look at Brett Kulak. In his draft year, he was a team best +29. Last season, he was a team worst -34. +29 to -34 in ONE year. Did he get that much worse? No, and in fact he was the best player on his team by a wide margin.
It astonishes me that anyone ever tries to defend plus minus anymore.


text:
|Posted by Keiko Takahashi on March 09, 1999 at 16:16:53:
|In response to Re: Leaky Shower
: We are purchasing a 70 year old home that has a leaky shower. There is evidence of moisture (no rot) under the house where the shower is located. It seems to be coming from the shower floor which is tiled. What are our obtions? We would like to keep most of the original look. What are we looking at $ wise to fix this?
All conventional tiled showers are bound to leak in the long run. However, NOT WITH OUR SHOWER PAN LINER. In order to keep the authentic look of your current shower, I would recommend our Tile Redi Waterproof Shower Module. Available in three different sizes, it completely eliminates the process of mudding the shower floor saving you up to 3 days in construction time! You can apply ceramics directly to it and it has a lifetime guarantee not to leak so you will never have the same problem again. It is fairly inexpensive (under $200) and you can even install it yourself.
|Replies to this post
|There are none.


text:
skateluvr if you go to the competitions folder the list is in the Japan Open thread. - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...s&goto=newpost
skateluvr if you go to the competitions folder the list is in the Japan Open thread. - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...s&goto=newpost
Last edited by Tonichelle; 10-07-2012 at 11:18 PM.
source). Does that have any long-term effects? Even if not, missing nearly two years of training and competition is bound to affect a skater's progress.
Where I think Hanyu and Gachinsky have an edge is on jumps - Hanyu got his consistent at a younger age (he's still not 18!) and is now doing two different quads, and Gachi learned Mishin technique from early on, which can't hurt. Hanyu also has an advantage when it comes to the variety of spin positions he can do.
p.s. IP, your inbox is full
Didn't that coach that he just let go help his jumps?
Buttercup, I'm gonna have to start saving our PMs to my hard drive, as I clearly don't delete them quickly enough!
Though I do wish Krall had a bigger role than what Chan envisioned, I can only see how it'll play out before making judgements. And even then, who knows?
Chan had a bad day during the Japan Open. It can happen to anyone. Nevertheless, I don't think this will affect him at all. The grand prix series haven't started yet and skaters get better as season progresses. In my eyes, he is still pretty much a favorite to win every event he will participate. I just don't understand why some people were "jumping around with joy" with Patrick's failure at the JO
I don't think people are cheering anyone's failure, just that the judging didn't ignore the falls.
Well, maybe not on this forum but unfortunately there were some nasty comments on facebook. Anyway, I'm sure he'll bounce back
Let's see where Patrick is now according to Japan Open results:
1) If he landed a perfect 4T, but fell three times, he'd have gotten 10.30 + 1.00 (assume that he'd get +1 GOE which is easy for him if he lands it) = 11.30. And assume that he'd have gotten +2 in PCS for this jump. He'd wrap up +7 points more from this jump. He'll get total = 144.42. He is still the last.
2) If he landed a perfect 4T-3T, but fell three times, he'd have gotten 14.40 + 2 (assume that he'd get +2 GOE for it) = 16.40. And assume that he'd have gotten +2 in PCS for this jump combo. He'd wrap up +14.16 more for this jump. He'll get total = 151.58. He'll be in fifth and bearly beat Brezina.
3) If he landed both quads perfectly, but fell two times on other jumps, assume that he'd have gotten +4 in PCS, he'd wrap up +21.16 more for both quads. He'll get total = 158.58. He'll be in fourth and only beat Brezina and Plushenko.
4) If he landed both his quad jumps and landed 3A, but fell on 3Lz + seq, his 3A would have gotten 9.35 + 1 (assume that he'd get +1 GOE for it) = 10.35. And assume he'd have gotten +1 in PCS for 3A. He'd get +27.16 more for landing two quads and a 3A. He'll get total = 164.58. He could then become third and beat Brezina, Plushenko, and Buttle.
5) If he landed all his jumps, but made a few mistakes, such as doubled his 3F and singled his 2A, assume his 3Lz + seq will be 3Lz-1Lo-3S which will be 11.77 without GOE. Also assume that he'd get +1 PCS for this jump. He'd wrap up +37.75 more points. His total = 175.17. He will be first. His PCS might be 84.42 +6 = 90.42. Slightly lower than Takahashi has gotten this time. Or if his PCS is on the high end, it might be +7 more than he's actually gotten this time. So it could be 91.42.
Sounds quite reasonable to me.
By the way, I didn't see a direct link to this program in any threads other than Patrick's Fan Fest thread. So I brought it here:
Patrick's La Boheme at Japan Open 2012
I think the choreography is amazing! So, that was the result of David Wilson's work on a skater with the best skating skills! If Patrick could skate this program clean, this will be another materpiece! I love this music, and love his costume. This music and choreography suit Patrick like a glove. Looking forward to seeing him skate it clean - if he could skate clean with only Kathy Johnson by his side.
Honestly, Johnson is a warm, nurturing mother figure. I don't think that is enough for a world top skater. Patrick is still dreaming. He hasn't woken up yet. I so want to be proved 100% wrong about this.
Also, his PCS took quite huge a hit because of his four falls. He was in the fourth place on PCS after Takahashi, Buttle, and Plushenko. He has only beaten Kozuka and Brezina. It seems very fair to me.
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-09-2012 at 10:25 PM.
thanks toni for link. it could be a great chan program. 4 falls too bad. but he is great in his exhibitions. Could it be he is so fast he cannot contol his jumps? he needs Yuna for a jump coach, lol.
Last edited by skateluvr; 10-08-2012 at 11:56 PM.
that was a seriously good program. If he near clean with that it will bring down the house.
Last edited by lavender; 10-09-2012 at 12:42 PM.
The "blunder boy" for whatever reasons had trouble executing his jumps at the JO.
But after watching him skate this new program my impression was:
"Faster than a Speeding Bullet, More Powerful than a Locomotive, Able to Leap Tall Buildings in a Single Bound:
Its a Bird, Its a Plane, it's SuperChan" (TM )
OK, maybe the part about "able to leap tall buildings" wasn't quite right that night but the rest seems to fit.
Last edited by janetfan; 10-09-2012 at 11:16 AM.
An off day or a meltdown happens to the best of them and is not an indication of the skater's general level. What are more worrisome are chronic issues a skater cannot resolve, such as UR, wrong edge, or stamina porblem.
In rodeo, if you fall off the bronco, then fall off the bull, then fall off your horse in calf-roping, and then your little sister falls off her horse in barrel racing, your total score for the meet is No Score + No Score + No Score + No Score. You also get No Score if you touch the animal with your free hand.
Patrick Chan is the World Champion of Figure Skating. He is one of the greatest, if not THE greatest of all time. The boy fell down four times. Where's the hook? Where's the gong?
True, the security of his edges of his edges, his speed across the ice, the passionate soul of his choreographer -- these send the CoP into paroxysms of ecstasy. Still ... bah! humbug!


text:
Our own Erin has been selected as one of GSUSA's National Young Women of Distinction. Erin earned her Gold Award in 2009 with her project "Life's Landing Pad" and is one of only 10 girls nationwide selected for this award.
Read more about Erin's project on the GSUSA website http://www.girlscouts.org/convention/whats_happening/ywod.asp. Erin is a 2009 graduate of Citronelle High School, and is currently a junior at Judson College. She will speak at the National Convention in Houston this November, where she will receive her award and a scholarship.
Congratulations, Erin! We're so proud of you!


text:
Melanie Taylor >> See More Amateurs
Galleries in Full HD!
Galleries in Full HD!
Meet Amateur Melanie Taylor, a model and dancer from from Los Angeles, California. She's German by descent, evidenced in her blonde hair and broad facial features, and her breasts and curves are all natural. "I'm originally from Detroit," she says. "My family moved...
Get this complete pictorial in stunning resolution & HD video! View Full Gallery!


text:
The Alumni Memorial Union has a plethora of services available to students within its walls. Whether you're in a student organization and need assistance from the Office of Student Development or Marquette University Student Government (MUSG), need to set up a local checking account at U.S Bank, have to pick up a gift at the Marquette Spirit Shop and then ship it back home at Union Station, the AMU offers students many services.
In addition to those already mentioned, the AMU houses several food and beverage locations (Brew Bayou, Marquette Place, Lunda Room and Brooks Lounge), the University Information Center, the Marquette Card offices, the Office of Student Affairs, the L.E.A.D. Center, Student Educational Services, University Ministry, the Chapel of the Holy Family, the Event Management Office and the International Center.
The Alumni Memorial Union is home to Campus Ministry (AMU 236). Through Campus Ministry, the Alumni Memorial Union has various reflection places:
For further questions regarding reflection or Campus Ministry, stop by AMU 236 or call (414) 288-6873.


text:
Skip to comments.Iowa Supreme Court rules both lesbian spouses names should be on childs birth certificate
Posted on 05/03/2013 10:23:16 AM PDT by newgeezer
The Iowa Supreme Court Friday affirmed a district court ruling that both spouses in a lesbian marriage should be listed on a childs birth certificate.
The court ordered the Iowa Department of Public Health to reissue a birth certificate to Melissa and Heather Gartner, of Des Moines, for their daughter, Mackenzie Jean, who was born in September 2009. The department refused to list Melissa, the nonbirthing parent, on the birth certificate.
It is important our laws recognize that married lesbian couples who have children enjoy the same benefits and burdens as married opposite-sex couples who have children, the court wrote in a 29-page decision issued Friday.
By naming the nonbirthing spouse on the birth certificate of a married lesbian couples child, the child is ensured supported from that parent and that parents establishes fundamental rights at the moment of birth, the ruling states.
The Supreme Courts 2009 Varnum vs. Brien decision legalizing same-sex marriage provides the bedrock for Fridays decision, the court noted.
What about the child who may need to know who their biological father is? hmmmmm
This is nothing less than state-sanctioned child abuse.
I WISH that an EF5 Tornado would hit Des Moines and WHIPE it off of the map!
They put the non-biological father on the birth certificate ALL THE TIME. The law doesn't care about DNA, they care about the law. The husband of a woman who gives birth is legally the father - even if he isn't the biological father. Kind of a messed up situation for some - their wife cheats on them - gets pregnant - and they are legally responsible for support of the resulting child.
Fun fun fun!
And when polygamy becomes law, how many names will go on birth certificates?
Well, in this day and age, I'd like to see a "partner", spirtual, emotional or otherwise be potentially held legally responsible for a life they commit to being, transitioned or sustained in whatever manner in support of their deviate lifestyle.
I actually see this as a stakehold in repsponsibility that lashes the other, not child-bearing partner, to a potential financial responsibility other than the poor schmuck man they may or may not have tricked into their deviate schemes.
Bring it on! Make both of them carpet munchers responsible for that life they misdirected and probably ruined. I say good.
Put the turkey baster on there too then - it had more to do with the baby than the "other" "mother".
Let me add that I believe no child should be put into this kind of setting. But then I worry more about the well being of the child than I do about the "fundamental rights" of her so called "parents".
Where do they list the sperm donor? After all, he is the biological father.
And when the 2 lezzies break up - What man will they sue for child support?
They don't. See post #5.
That's why laws against incest will be annulled. No legal way to keep track as it is.
After polygamy comes... Yep, you guessed it.
After the moose bit my sister - she married him. Had a baby.
So now my nephew's birth certificate shows Bull. J. Winkle as the daddy.
(This story while not true - is no more bizarre than two bull dykes as parents on the BC)
I guess the biological father doesn't count..
This is going to really mess up genealogy research down the road. What they deem as "cute" or politically correct... roadblocks that child from finding out their true heritage or bloodline. Also, just gives them something else they can hate you for when they want answers to, "where is my Dad?"
Already happened... they sued the donor in court for child support, and won. I believe it was a recent court case in Kansas.
It is also important that birth certificate follow scientific principles of reproduction and list the genetic parents from whom the offspring has sprung, a genetic paper trail, if you will, which may be valuable later in life in diagnosing disorders and charting mutations.
Poor kids. As if they don't have enough crap in their lives.
I guess they want to turn kids into freaks to be more in tune with our enemies.
Would it help prevent this ?
TOPEKA, Kan. A sperm donor is being ordered to pay child support to a couple he helped have a child.
William Marotta says he gave up all legal rights to the little girl.
But under Kansas law, because the couple didnt use a doctor to get pregnant with Marottas sperm, the state says hes responsible for the monthly child support payments, according to FOX 4.
Marotta met the lesbian couple through a Craigslist ad seeking a sperm donor.
Marotta is an idiot. I have no sympathy for him. Let the femi-nazi pro-butch courts rape him a new one.
If your article tells the whole story (and, if this was Kansas), a doctor would still be required to absolve the sperm donor of any responsibility. (Why is that? Why isn't a contract sufficient? Is the doctors' lobby that strong in KS?)
Actually, Mackinzie is a bastard. All else is just window dressing, pig lipstick.
You must not watch the Disney Channel. If you had, you would know that you can go anywhere in your imagination.
Interesting argument here...
I've scoured our constitutions again and a again, and no matter how many times I look, the legislative branch is the only branch with lawmaking power given to it.
It did no such thing. Courts don't make laws. Iowa law to this day recognizes only real marriages.
And then a year later, the 'father' claims 'that's not my child and I dare you to prove that it is'!
Well, yeah, and there was the recent case of the sperm donor guy who got sued for child support after the two "parent" queers split up. This is all "bedrock "of course.
What an evil, Frankensteinian thing to do to human beings.....denying the Truth and Natural Law and artificially constructing an irrational reality for a child so he can not grow up in a realistic world. Always governed by "feelings" and never reaching maturity where Reason rules the emotions.
How evil and dehumanizing and selfish are these Marxists.
And to think we have a 'Justice" system that denies Natural Laws (Science) and Reality and Truth. It is disgusting and evil and unconstitutional.
All Just Law has to be Right Reason.
so be "married" you stupid idiots but you can't both claim parentage....its biologically impossible....
let this be a lesson...never let a dtr or niece or anyone female you know give up their baby to just anybody....make sure the child gets to a normal home with a normal marriage...
This is quite literally a coup d'etat. The overturning of our republican form of representative self-government.
And the Republican "leadership" is complicit.
I'm so mad I could spit nails.
This is Varnum II.
it'd be like letting an elephant and a woman be the official parents of a human baby because the elephant is strong and muscular and could protect the baby...
Deeper into the abyss.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
ON the subject of 'deep abyss'.
I understand that since MD has instituted/passed/signed the 'do funny marriage bill' that come 1JAN if a 'couple' are partners and NOT MARRIED, they will revert to just another shack up and will not be able to share bennies UNTIL they get married.
Watch the FALLOUT from this little act.
Not only will 'they' be suing because the state is FORCING them to marry, once they WIN (and surely they will) the regular shack ups will declare that since the 'do funnys' can share bennies without getting married, then the straight shack ups should get bennies also.
And figure that not soon after, conventional room mates (as we know them..share house/apt etc WITH NO SEX INVOLVED) will be clamoring to get in on the act.
SO FAR this just is for State Employees BUT you can imagine the rest of the state will attempt to follow suit. (Dependent on who 'benefits' from it).
These new rules are making my hairline ache.
It is important our laws recognize that married lesbian couples who have children enjoy the same benefits and burdens as married opposite-sex couples who have children,
Even if we have to make it all up out of thin air!!!!!
I don't mean to be hating on homosexuals....but its gone just too damn far especially when it comes to the welfare of a child...
Welcome to Bizzarro World.
Why is this basic concept so difficult for a modern, educated, civilized society to grasp?
Because "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" ...
let's get this straight, two woman cannot produce a child, so a child, any child, when born is not the result of human reproduction of two women and yet a "birth certificate" - a certificate recording the result of an act of human reproduction, which cannot be an act achieved by two women, is suppose to lie about what "a birth" means and state, in error of the facts, that the child's biological mother and her girlfriend are both "mother" of the child
it makes no sense whatsoever and the fact that it makes no sense stands regardless of anyone's opinion about anyone being "gay"
Birth certificates are not supposed to be ownership registrations.
of all the problems we face in this country and there are still some who seem intent on their sexual turn on and making it look like they're a family.
These people need to stop this nonsense, it makes them look insane and mentally backwards.
The fact is that it takes a male and a female to make a baby
plain and simple
these people need to get a life
You are right. So it isn't a birth certificate.
I knew a kid raised as a basket case by lesbians. I'm sure he's committed suicide by this time.
"married lesbian couples who have children enjoy the same benefits and burdens as married opposite-sex couples who have children,
Sorry, but I'm going to have to say it:
Except for the di*k benefits.
So "parent" doesn't mean PARENT anymore. Is that what they're saying?
The bastard's mother is the parent, the other is a nurturer
It's at least plausible that another man could be the father. But there is absolutely no way that this combination is possible.
Just another example of the re-definition of marriage also redefining parenthood and a multitude of other realities.
And, whoever controls the debate gets to define the terms.
For example, who the **** knows (or cares) what "infringed" means anymore?
The very first time the SCOTUS handed down an anti-Constitutional ruling and it was allowed to stand, the writing was on the wall. The actual words in the Constitution mean NOTHING. Dubya's Chief Justice John Roberts made that quite clear with his Obamacare insanity. That may have been the final tipping point. Our precarious 5-4 majority is dissolving before our eyes and will soon be gone. "God Bless America" indeed. He did, even while America kept telling Him to get lost.</rant>
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.


text:
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Turns out its all three.
Rose tinted glasses is a popular derogatory term used to attack those of us who enjoyed older style MMOs or the rare and often not shut down MMO with special mechanics, generally those involved in base building, open world pvp, or crazy complex economics.
If you have ever made a thread or post about your love for SWG, UO, DAOC, or Shadowbane chances are you have been hit with the accustation fo wearing rose tinted glasses. Its happened to me quite a bit, and sad to say its not true, I wish I had them, they are tres populare with the ladies.
The thrust of this accusation is that you only like those games because you played them first and thus you assign the value of of novelty to the games mechanics instead of your own newfound wonder. It couldn't possibly be because personally you liked being a merhcant or a crafter or a researcher. It can't be that you like the intensity of perma death or only slightly less serious risks from death. It doesn't matter if you played EQ in 1998, WoW in late 2004, and only got into DAOC or UO in 2005. That kind of thing never happens in the vision of people without fabulous eyewear.
Now obviously most of us don't believe that rose tinted glasses can explain our desire for the more experimental pre WoW age of MMOs. Are we right? Turns out the answer is not a simple yes or no. Assuming that there is no significant other difference between two games, rose colored glasses can have a powerful effect. Why? Been there, done that, and no long term emotional investment.
When the somewhat misnamed WoW clones hit release ,many players will flock to the game only to burn out in a couple months and head back to WoW. Yes, ironically WoW players are the primary group of gamers who we can be sure are afflicted with pink world views. Why is this? Because games like SWTOR and WAR are close enough to WoW that you have had the vast majority of their experience already playing WoW. And in WoW you have that novelty bonus and you have also been playing it for years, investing much of your emotional capital there.
Why does this not apply to UO, or Shadowbane, or EvE and other more unique games? Because the amount of powered possessed by the nostalgia phenomenon is not significant enough to overcome feature based differences. Games like EvE and Shadowbane simply aren't made anymore. SWG has no spiritual successor, aside from The Repopulation which isn't really out yet. 3 faction DAOC pvp and realm warfare doesn't exist. Modern games do not put significant class differences into each faction.
When was the last time a game focused as much on crafting as EvE or SWG came out? Compare that to how many games with extensive solo content, end game raid focus, and multiple arena based PvP maps have been made post WoW. Quite a bit of difference no?
Rose tinted glasses have power, but its not the overwhelming force argued for by new school gamers. It can only make decisions between games that are nearly identical.
The reason many people are upset about the state of MMOs is because the glorious variance of yesteryear has gone by the wayside. Just try and convince a serious company to make something that is highly deviant from the WoW model. Are they identical to WoW? No. But its close enough.
Economic gameplay has been relegated to indie games like Wurm and ATITD and to older games maintained by companies who aren't run by greedy men with MBAs like EvE. And god forbid you want an EvE style game but don't like spaceships, or you don't want to play a game that resets every year like ATITD.
I do have some nostalgia for my Tibia years as my first MMO, but not enough that I would play it over games that are in the genres of MMO that I prefer such as economic games and base builders. I enjoyed my years with friends in Guild Wars as my first AAA quality graphics MMO but I don't want to go back to instanced gameplay with boring crafting and only 8 skills. Yet by the argument of rose tinted glasses I should want to play Guild Wars way more than I want to play SWG or ATITD or Wurm.
What do you guys think? I know which posters I really want to weigh in, but I'll take the rest of you guys too
Originally posted by Ausare
Everyone has perpectives what is your point. Yes some people might want a eve type game not inspace. That is not the question. The question is do enough people want the same non-eve game to justify the cost. Even people that want a new daoc can not agree on what it should have annd not have.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. I was not arguing that certain games should be made. I was discussing the claim that people who like certain games only like them because it was the first MMO they played, hence the title being rose tinted glasses. Please exercise some reading comprehension next time.
I had fun with those EQ 1 servers that only released content from the first game/expansion, until they got up to like crazy "can solo everything and anything" expansions like now a days.
Opinion of the original EQ didn't change at all.
Same for trying out those private UO servers, hell the made it better with more options/classes.
Playing crap like GW2 where you're max level in an instant with almost zero effort and are supposed to just play pvp forever and ever since there's no end game or anything else to do in the game makes me hate current ones more and more..
I love an idea, but I generally never find much satisfaction with the actual results.
Does anyone else besides me feel this way towards anything?
It's like how I love the concept behind a certain video game franchise (no names), but I'm generally disappointed by the actual execution of the concept, especially in the story department, or just indifferent to it at best.
OP. Give it two to four more years. These people whose first MMo was WoW or a post WoW MMO will eventaully figure all this stuff out. It just takes them longer to get a real understanding of the MMOs we play. It took some of us an hour to see how shallow Guild Wars 2 is. It took the rest of them a few months. The only thing they'll never know is how fulfilling older MMOs were. Communities in general and being social and making friends were required in MMOs. Now they're all single player and force feed you instance rewards making them meaningless. The days where you'd speed months getting to level 30 or 40 in a game with a max level of 80 or 100 seem to be long gone. We have nothing but business men controling these MMOs rather than gamers. Even with GW2's flaws, I tried for a total of nearly 6 hours over the course of two weeks to chat with people to form a party. Not a single person wanted to form a team. GW2 possibly has the most anti social community I've ever seen.
I really really hope this industry dies soon. Then all these companies can make their facebook games and 5 dollar apps and their single player fanbase can go with them. Then maybe there will be room for games that are actually made to be the best they can be instead of just playable "rat and light switch" games. Current game devs aren't going to fix this mess because most MMO players are used to these mediocre games and can't even begin to imagine what a good MMO is like. Hell, even with a mediocre MMO, all you need is a decent community. A decent community comes about when the game requires you to work together or even work together against other groups of people. If the game is one big cakewalk, everyone will just walk it alone because we're all sheep playing the game devs silly game.
/nonsense rant
Originally posted by Ausare
While the market can support a lot the problem is not enough agree on what to support to make people want to invest time and $20 miliion.
Good thing that has nothing to do with my thread then huh? Whether or not certain kinds of MMOs should be made has nothing to do with my topic. We are talking about why people WANT certain MMOs. My argument being that it is not rose tinted glasses that are the main reason.
I've used the term 'Rose Tinted Glasses' on here from time to time but I usually reserve it for a certain type of fanatical devotion to a subject. When I use it is usually when the flaws of a game have not only been mentioned by myself and others but proof of said flaws have been also presented in a factual maner. If even in the face of actual factual evidence a person still chooses not to believe that said game has these flaws or tries to dismiss them as something totally nonrelated then I pull out the rose tinted glasses comment and will usually stop discussing with them at this point as it becomes painfully obvious that to continue would be pointless. I don't have to use it often but I do when it's one of these special little snowflakes that I described above.
"I'll bite. Yeah, rose tinted glasses do play a role. Feel free to find some puppies after you're done reading Are rose tinted glasses the sole determining factor for everyone? No, of course not. Does nostalgia and a rose tinted look not play a role for anybody at all? The same, most certainly not. Truth lies somewhere in the middle.
It'd be interesting if a survey was held or would be held if people thought their first year(s) of MMO gaming were their best, no matter when they started. And if the first MMO they really enjoyed, was still on the first or second spot of best MMO gameplay experience of all their MMO gaming life. I expect the percentage that answers those questions with yes, based on the accounts of MMO gamers on various forums, will be far higher than a simple 'that 1st game was a better one' would account for. Ofc, it remains guesswork since there is no such survey.
There are research projects however that determined that for most people, their music taste gets 'anchored' in their first formative years of engaged music listening, in their teens up till early '20s. The music trends that manage to steal their hearts in that period of time'll remain their bias and most favored, what comes later doesn't touch us that intensely anymore. Of course, there'll always be exceptions but those were the patterns that those reports laid bare.
Personally, I'm guessing it's kinda like with sex: the intensity and excitement peak that each sex encounter delivers in those first years or those first times that you experience something new is higher on average than later years when you've done it a 100-200+ times. Sure, sex'll always be fun no matter when. But man, those first sex partners, or the sex in those first months with your current partner...
So yeah, I'm guessing nostalgia and rose tinted glasses do play a role, in how some regard their first year(s) of MMO gaming with later on, how much will differ from one person to the next.
It's true that MMO gamers who crave certain MMO mechanics have had little choice of those the past years, when those AAA sandbox and hybrid MMO's arrive we'll see how many of those there actually are and if those MMO's with the mechanics they've been craving for will really bring them what they're looking for. After all, a themepark fan won't also automatically love any AAA themepark MMO, and sometimes they love an MMO but the community isn't there to make them really have fun in it, making them return to a former MMO like WoW which as a game they might maybe like less than that new MMO, but that's where their friends are. I expect that that behavior won't be that different when it comes to the sandbox MMO scene. Maybe there'll be people who'll be chasing eternally after that sensation and feeling they experienced when they first started playing MMO's, forever be disappointed no matter what mechanics and features an MMO will bring to the table.
Originally posted by smh_alot
I'm going to (re)post what I posted in another thread, bc I think it's relevant for this discussion too
The 'rose tinted glasses' or 'first love syndrome' is btw not something that only affects 1st generation MMO gamers (one gamer more than another), it ofc by its very nature also affects those many millions who started playing MMO's since WoW and for whom WoW was their first MMO. Your first real love, whether it's music, a relationship or an MMO, people'll be inclined psychologically to always be more mellow towards it due to the newness and heightened intensity of impressions that newfound pleasures often leave.
I disagree with the statement that diversity isn't improving - I'm assuming btw that people're talking about the top/AAA segment of MMO's, bc there has always been quite some diversity in the lower-than-AAA budget MMO scene. But if you look at the top segment, you'll see themepark MMO's that aren't 'WoW clones' (ofc, I fully realise that for themepark dislikers ALL themepark MMO's will ALWAYS be 'WoW clones') with lots of differing mechanics, you have a number of MMOFPS type games that'll enter the scene, and you even have themepark/sandbox hybrids and sandbox MMO's to be expected in the top segment within the next 1-3 years. That's more diversity in MMO types and feature mechanics than we've seen in the past 6 years and more.
There is a bunch of stuff entering the scene NOW. But for almost a decade we haven't had anything. Its true that we had some AA stuff like LOTRO that isn't a WoW clone, but its still the same STYLE. Towns isn't a DF CLONE but its the same KIND of game. I would say genre but some people interpret that as being much broader than I do.
So while WAR and RIFT and SWTOR aren't clones in the way Yeti Town is a clone of Triple Town, they subscribe to the same philosophy of design. Casual, mostly single player, with a focus on endgame PVE raids and instanced PVP and with all factions have functionally identical classes.
Essentially, themeparks. Its true that people opposed to themeparks think of all of them as WoW clones. But what they really mean by WoW clones IS themeparks. So ignore the WoW clone part and just read it as themepark.
The other problem is that the rides in all themeparks do tend to be the same rides with new skins. None of the games have significantly different raid mechanics for instance.
MMOFPS games are not WoW clones. But they also aren't RPGs. Hence the different name. So you could say that we have some innovation in the MMO space, but not in the MMORPG space. And this is not mmofps.com is it?
The thing about the older games was that DAOC functioned significantly differently than EQ or SWG. That's what people want back. Not even necessarily the specific mechanics of a game. And yet they are still under the MMORPG umbrella.
GW was more of a diablo style game and D3 and GW1 aren't really massively multiplayer so much as coop lobbies.
The distinction between the main gameplay of Shadowbane, EvE, SWG, DAOC and EQ was much, much larger than the distinction between WAR, SWTOR, RIFT, WOW, etc.
Now we can't be sure about the games of the future really either. GW2 was disappointing, I'm so glad I didn't get on the hype train for that. Tera was similarly meh. TSW at least had some real differences in game style with skill wheels and weapons and with lore quests, although I would say it wasn't a big enough change for me, most of the rides are pretty much the same.
ArcheAge would be fabulous if we had a release date and I'm somewhat excited for the Repopulation. But the latter is an ATITD/WURM level indie game so it may or may not have some problems like DF and MO had. Its true that indie wise we had some nice games with DF/MO/WURM/ATITD coming out. And I played the latter 2 of those quite a bit.
But DF and MO suffered hard from their devs being too hobbyist imo. At least EvE hasn't sold out like DAOC and SWG did because of stupid suits.
This isn't really on the thread topic of rose colored glasses though.
And you aren't really arguing the thing I am arguing against in my post as I said in the other thread. Your argument is less reductive than the one I have learned to despise.
Another thing that many forget: a lot of the current features were implemented as solutions for issues, irritations and downright complaints that 1st generation MMO gamers had with that first batch of pre-WoW MMO's. Those may not have been the best solutions possible, as the many complaints here about these 'themepark' features attest to, but taking those away doesn't automatically make an MMO so much better. Take quests or quest based leveling away, and you think people'll be jumping for joy when they discover they need to mob grind to level again? Make solo leveling nigh impossible and reintroduce enforced grouping, and how many do you think'll stay when people have experienced a number of times they were doing nothing but waiting for 1 hr or more before they could find a group to level or do anything?
I agree with that there was more diversity in those early years, everyone was experimenting still with that new genre that MMO was. But I'd say that after years, that diversity sees a return in the top segment, with a TSW and GW2 being very different themepark inspired MMO's than WoW, LotrO and SWTOR were, and with MMO's like Firefall, ArcheAge, Planetside 2, Defiance, Neverwinter and World of Darkness joining the bunch. EQ wasn't btw the only MMO that saw a lot of its players leave when EQ2 and WoW launched, as good as all other MMO's including SWG did too. Probably bc most MMO gamers didn't think 'oh, I've been playing this kind of MMO, so I only like this or that type of MMO' but were more like, 'that EQ2 or WoW sounds like fun, I want to give one of them a try!' And a number of those 1st generation MMO gamers stayed in EQ2 and WoW, regardless whether they played a non-sandbox MMO or sandbox MMO before. I think only if those other MMO's have arrived on the scene, we'll find out how much it has been a lacking of MMO's with those particular mechanics have been missing on the scene, and how much has been a nostalgic longing of some to a time when they enjoyed MMO gaming the most for various reasons of which not all of it can be caught purely in mechanics and features.
It's the opposite.
Those games of yesterday that people wax nostalgic about really were that good. Has there ever been a MMO with as good a crafting/resource system of SWG? Nope. The only games close to that was Horizons, which is long dead, and EVE which is another old timer game.
Has any game come close to original EQ in terms of difficulty or community. Nope. That game, along with UO, put the genre on the map.
I feel bad for the players who got into MMOs around 5 years ago and whose first game was WOW or one of the WOW clones. You missed out on three of four incredible games. People who played UO or SWG or original EQ way back when or even Asheron's Call will tell you that none of the games today are even in the same ballpark as those games.
It's not rose colored glasses, those games were great. They started this genre. I don't even blame WOW. That was a great game when it was released as well. The only peoblem was that game companies put money ahead of creativity, which is their right, but they ended up taking this genre down a path that is now content with churning out WOW clones, or TOR flop-fests, or Guilw Wars 2 games for casual players.
Many people are arguing for RTG as the number one reason for old gamers disliking current MMOs. You may not, but its a constant refrain and not only in MMOs.
I like mob grinding, in WoW I would just sit and grind the same area over and over for mobs that drop cloth materials. Of course I quit, but not because of the grinding, I ground various things for months in ATITD to pick up mats. I quit because their economic and industrial game play is shit.
I dislike quests most of the time because a lot of quests just made you run all over the damn map to get that much faster exp. Which is why they invented fast travel, because quests were a fucking terrible idea.
Grinding mobs keeps you all in one spot so the grind is more obvious. If you use fast travel, most of questing is still running around chasing a fucking arrow. I am not trying out for the god damn steeple chase for fucks sake. If you took away the remaining running you would find that quest grinding is just as dumb as mob grinding.
In fact aren't most quests about grinding mobs? Kill 10x right? So quest grinding isn't just similar to mob grinding it IS mob grinding.
What's the other option? Fedex? That is just spending all your time running back and forth.
How many people blabbing this mob grinding shit even played EQ? Most of them are WoW players as their first game. They just don't realize that their vaunted quest grinding is in most cases literally the same activity as mob grinding.
If you played EQ and WoW you should know better than to think that quest grinding is different from mob grinding.
The ideal solution to remove the feeling of grind is to add new activities. That's what made economic and diplomatic and exploration game play so great. If you had each activity as fleshed out as combat you would have enough diversity to avoid the grindy feeling.
RTG is just a convenient go to argument for people who can't do real analysis. I'm and atheist and thusly a skeptic. This shit isn't gonna fly with me.
There were some real improvements in WoW. Mainly interface and ease of use as well as non isometric and other graphics improvements.
But the gameplay like quests and raids was just trying to hide the mob grinding under a thin film of bullshit.
This is also the trick with PvP. If a boss acts like a human its cheating and random and unfair. If a human acts like a human its not random and unfair, its being human.
I have to sit through boring boss and mob behavior because some people are too stupid to understand that human gameplay is random in the same way as a more complex rand% behavior tree in AI.
Ever seen anyone whine that a PvP was too hard? They do that with boss fights all the time. Because modern gamers are trained to expect PVE to be easy, and so they whine when its not.
Do these opinions make me elitist? Only in the same way as knowing that I am superior to 99% of Americans in math or reading comprehension does.
If you can be fooled by the story derived skin over mob grinding called quests, more power to you, I'm jealous. I can't sit around extolling the superiority of quests because I already know its a lie.
Of course questing can be another grind. Grind is when a repetitive activity becomes boring. Mob killing based leveling was exhilarating and fun for many the first 1000 hrs of gameplay. But after 3000-5000 hrs of playing MMO's? The fun for many became less and less, it became a grind. Posts and comments on forums and ingame enough that gave that indication. A fatigue settled in. The same with quest based leveling, at first it was embraced as a refreshing change from the mob grind, exhilarating in how it made leveling more interesting. But sure, after 3000-5000 hours of doing it like that, fatigue of it'll make it less and less fun for many too, and makes it into a grind.
Personally, I like the long travel times, death penalty, harsh difficulty, and so on. But I can also see how a number of those features and mechanics as seen in those early MMO's will be a deterrance for both newer MMO gamers as well as 1st generation MMO gamers. So no, I don't think RTG is insignificant, it plays a role. Of course will more variation in ingame activities and more depth to them make an MMO more interesting, but I apply that to both 1st generation MMO features as well as WoW generation MMO features. imo a healthy mix of both would be best. Next to that, I think a number of MMO veterans underestimate the fatigue or weariness against even 1st generation features or general MMO mechanics that they have - but we'll see how these forums'll be when the first AAA sandbox MMO or hybrid MMO appears, after the first couple of months after its launch.
Well I think that a big problem is people expect new games to be too popular. An MMO should target an audience of 1 million tops, and if more people decide to play, great. But otherwise it will just make everyone unhappy because one game isn't meant to please so many people. That is the real problem with WoW regardless of everything else, it fucked up the expectations of publishers and the MBAs that control them.
Its highly likely that if your MMO budget is over 75 million that you done fucked up son.
Look at other genres as well, it's same process.
When I first started with computer games, it was awesome to try the 1st platform, shoot 'em up, beat 'em up, sports game, rpg etc...
These were innovations and expansions in what computer games were delivering. Some genres have not really pushed that much. I remember Super Mario 64 as pivotal in the platform genre as a sea change of what could be done as well as 2D. So that was an example of a genre at that point doing amazing things. Conversely, I think beat 'em ups have not radically improved since I 1st saw Street Fighter II in an arcade. Anyone mention a killer beat 'em that pushes that genre since that one? Odd as you would think so many non-weapon martial arts would make really sophisticated beat 'em ups for players to learn serious depth of gameplay from... but it has not happened as far as I know.
The result for me is AAA games usually have flash graphics but same old genres with no new interest for me. Except I take the example of Fifa - these sport game improves year in year out. But also seem to be infinitely playable in which ever version you play. Why is that? Well from experience, what I find is that games are similar to other activities in that you learn how to play them that may be somewhat hard work but it's actually really fun/rewarding that stays with you, unlike eg being happy when you eat a meal, it just makes you happy at that time. So games which test you in new ways, namely give you new experiences... those imo are more interesting and why indie are more to my tastes these days. So there is rose-tinted for 1st genres experienced, but it is NOT rose-tinted if those genres have developed and are continuing to develop in ways that provide new experiences.
So as OP says, all the above apply. Agree.
i always played single player games that can collect different things and star wars games.
so i tried some sci-fi only MMOs (global agenda, SWG, SWTOR, tabula rassa) guess what is my favorite
SWG cuz had star wars felling and can collect millions of items for decoration purpose