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The question of whether to ease restrictions on the sale of raw milk, also known as unpasteurized milk, has stirred up considerable debate.
In 1987 the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) began requiring that milk be pasteurized to kill bacteria. Raw milk contains numerous pathogens, such as salmonella and E. coli 0157:H7, that cause significant food-borne illness and can lead to hospitalization, kidney failure and even death.
Raw milk proponents say the requirement is unfair and point out that farmers are allowed to sell raw meat and raw vegetables — the two biggest sources of food-borne illness. They argue that raw milk shouldn't be treated differently.
Fans of raw milk assert that it tastes sweeter and fresher. They also claim that it fights allergies, digestive problems, eczema, autism, arthritis and learning disabilities, and boosts immunity — properties that they say are removed by pasteurization. The FDA and other public health officials, however, point out that these claims aren't supported by research.
Proponents of pasteurization remind us that prior to pasteurization, raw milk accounted for up to 25 percent of outbreaks of food- and water-borne illness. Now dairy products account for only about 1 percent of outbreaks — 70 percent of those are attributed to raw milk or raw milk cheeses.
Where do you stand on this question? Do you see it as an issue of big government versus the rights of individual producers and consumers? Are you concerned that in this case freedom of choice comes with risk of serious illness?
- Jennifer
Jennifer K. Nelson, R.D., L.D.
Katherine Zeratsky, R.D., L.D.
Selecting "Submit" signifies that you have read and agree to our posting guidelines.
I am a veterinarian, and I am appalled at the ignorance of our society to believe raw milk is a miracle cure and the "big brother" mentality of government is out to harm the American people. Raw milk is unsafe, period. It has been thoroughly researched and proven; just google brucellosis, tuberculosis, listeriosis, coxiella, staph aureus, enterohemorrhagic ecoli. Modern dairies are not filthy nor cruel to their animals, no matter how many times you watch Food, Inc. Educate yourselves, anecdotal success stories have no basis on this matter.
If raw milk production were regulated and batches of milk were periodically tested, the milk would be much safer to drink. It is the sloppy farming that allows FECAL matter into the milk that makes people sick. It is never the milk itself that causes illness, but the contamination of the milk by dirty farming. Keep it clean to keep it safe and it is a superfood! (please reference the absolute success in South Carolina raw milk farming and store sales)
Written by a pregnant woman who consumes 3-4 cups of raw milk daily and who's first son went straight to raw cow's milk after raw breast milk!
Iam 53 years old and have consumed raw milk all my life. First from hand milked cows as a child, when we would strain out the manure and hair, untill now as we milk 2 cows with a machine in a very clean enviroment. I have never got sick from raw milk and my doctor only sees me every few years for a physical. I have perfect blood pressure and Cholestrol levels. I take no over the counter or prescription drugs. My brothers, on the other hand have struggled with multiple health problems associated with this modern age. The only difference between us is our diet. They don't drink raw milk, and I drink at least a half gallon daily. I just feel sad that so many people like the FDA who are approving drugs with side affects that are killing people daily.
I drink Pennsylvania certified organic raw milk. It is tested once per week and is perfectlty safe to drink.
You should not drink raw milk from any place at all. I must come from a clean source, of course and from grass fed cows.
The FDA is so currupt! They put flouride in our water, allow high fructose corn syrup and artificial sweetners in food - to hell with anyting the FDA says about food safety.
I agree with most of the comments here including this one by Tony:
So when exactly did the Mayo Clinic discontinue the Milk Cure?
I think that anyone who has researched the pros and cons, then sees fit to drink raw milk to gain the enormous benefits, does so as an informed individual. Government needs to butt out, afterall, why trust them, they advocate adding fluoride - a know toxin to our water. I know what I want in my body, and I am am intelligent enough to find a clean place to get raw milk. people who want to drink it, are well researched on the subject.
I think that one of the reasons it is frowned upon, is that it is of such great benefit to the body that it may actually heal and cure some illnesses where pharmaceuticals will kill you.
I have endometriosis, and my husband has a hard time sleeping which caused him to have chest pain. I'm 29 and he's 30. For him to have chest pain at his age isn't good at all. We found a farm 61 miles away from us that sales raw milk and decided to check it out 3 days ago. It was very clean and they millked the cows right infront of us. Although the milk wasn't cheap at a whopping $10 per gallon, it was worth it! My endometriosis hasn't acted up and my husband was able to sleep without the aid of medication and hasn't had any chest pain since. I will never buy store bought milk again! By the way, the feds are nothing but a bunch of money hungry people. The drug companies pay them billions of dollars each year to keep the more natural cures away saying that they're not safe. END THE FED!!
"The FDA and other public health officials, however, point out that these claims aren't supported by research."
It is nothing more than a grand demonstration of the art of misinformation.
The GABRIELA study is indeed a very comprehensive study involving several thousand European school aged children.
The empirical evidence is absolutely clear regarding the benefits of raw fresh milk.
Yet, the FDA points states "these claims aren't supported by research". This is the food we do not want to eat!
Raw milk must be an individual choice. If there are health concerns you should address the causes of those issues, such as cleanliness. If we outlawed every food that made anyone ill there would no longer be any foods left. I want to be able to buy fresh produce (including cantalopes), non-irradiated meats, raw eggs, etc.
Anyone selling raw milk through retail outlets should be regulated and inspected just like the farms providing the carrots.
Conventional milk really is produced under the most toxic (hormones, antibiotics, no grass) filthy conditions imaginable, that "milk" has to be pasturized as there is nothing safe about it. Milk for the raw market must be produced under very strict guidelines.
However, if there are farmers who want to do that, and people that want to buy it, then we need to support and encourage it as clean raw milk is a wonderful food packed with healthy fats and vitamins.
I buy raw milk from a local farm, that I have visited. Luckily in my state, one of the few, it's totally legal.
I love raw cheese, and support farms that treat there animals well.
From the time I was 13 to about 19, my parents had their own milk cow. This was in the 1990's by the way. That was the only milk, cream, cheese and butter we had. Never once did I get sick consuming these products. My father's cholesterol actually improved while consuming these raw dairy products. Our cow was like a family pet. She was well cared for and well fed and we knew that cleanliness was a must. I am convinced that raw dairy from a small, clean dairy is safer and much more nutritious than pasteurized, store-bought milk. Why do you think they have to add Vitamin D and other nutrients to pasteurized milk? It's because the natural nutritive properties of the milk are destroyed as part of the pasteurization process.
Over 500 people contracted E coli from raw oysters between '95 and '05 and over 250 died. There was an outbreak of E coli from pasteurized cheese in 2010 leaving 38 sick and 15 hospitalized. These are two small examples of food borne illnesses which are never discussed or draw SWAT style raids of federal agents. Knowledge is power - quit being so gullible and swallowing everything the feds feed you.
Pasteurization was developed as a result of growing urban populations and the huge unsanitary dairy farms which were needed to feed the masses. It was a godsend at the time and considering how disgusting most mega-dairies are, it still is. But milk from a well run, well tested raw dairy is safe. Safer than the white fluid your buying at WalMart. Mega-Dairy hates the growth of demand of raw-milk because they can't compete - they're too dirty and they know they can't afford to create sanitary dairy's to meet the growing demand. Are you still believing the crock that the Feds are somehow a branch of 'We The People'? They're the gestapo goons for corporations - all large corporations. Just bc the feds attribute illness to their enemy number one, it doesn't, and never has had to be the truth.
I really do not care if people choose raw milk- I eat raw oysters and wild mushrooms but I am tired of the health claims that are not backed by any science. These folks are the same as the science denying climate change disbelievers.
I grew up in Ireland in the 1970s. Then you could still buy raw milk from farmers - straight from the cow. The regular instances of bacterial infections in children and old people because of raw milk were very frightening. Raw milk carries disease . It can kill you! Not everything that's natural is good for you... like Bovine TB.If you disagree with pasteurization for some reason avoid all milk.Its not possible to choose a farm and decide it safe every day !
There is a major logical hole in the following insinuation:
"Proponents of pasteurization remind us that prior to pasteurization, raw milk accounted for up to 25 percent of outbreaks of food- and water-borne illness. Now dairy products account for only about 1 percent of outbreaks"
It could be that before the 1900s, prior to pasteurization's adoption, the pumping, storing, handling, transportation, and home storage of milk were all factors THEN (not necessarily TODAY) in such outbreaks. For instance, home refrigerators only became widely adopted after 1930, well after pasteurization. Relevance? E Coli does not multiply nearly as much under refrigeration as it does at room temperature.
Just started drinking raw kefir. I was amazed that it cleared up a problem I had been having for months within just a few days. Something that the pasteurized version had not helped. I'm an educated adult perfectly capable of making nutrition decisions for myself and my family.
I have never had raw milk but I have been trying to get it for over a year. I would like to be able to decide for myself if drinking it makes any difference I can get raw fish, spinach, chopmeat,and peanut-butter all which have been recalled for contamination. The only reason I see for raw milk being illegal is in that it really does help all these health problems and Big Pharma would have the money sucked out of it's pockets and kept in the consumer's pockets when their pills aren't needed. I'm tired of the government playing my parent and telling me that it know's better than I do what's good for me. I may not always make the right choices but isn't what freedom is all about, to make even a wrong choice sometime.
Weston Price was also an advocate of including "healthy fats" in one's diet.
I live in Chicago and I've been drinking raw milk for over six years. I have never gotten sick from it. In fact, I rarely, if ever get sick anymore.I was in a car accident that left me with severe nerve damage, arthritis, and osteo-necrosis(bone death) I never have any more joint pain. Our bodies need healthy bacteria to cleanse itself. Raw milk contains raw fat. We need some "healthy fats" to pull toxins out of our bodies. (Avocados and coconuts are also healthy fats) A low fat diet is not entirely healthy. Raw fats have a regenerative quality of building and cleansing that is necessary. It saddens me that our present day health care system is purely driven by the profit motive.
I remember as a kid the milkhouse where our milk was strained into milk cans to be picked up by the milk hauler. The milk cans were kept in a spring fed cooling tank. We kids would take a glass into the milkhouse, lift the strainer and put our glasses under to catch the warm, delicious milk. Didn't get any better than that. Now I can't drink milk at all. I must buy almond or coconut milk because I don't like the taste of soy. Lot pricier than raw milk could be and not nearly as tasty. There were 9 kids in my family. None of us got the "usual" sicknesses (except measles, chickenpox, mumps which we passed around on purpose). I truly believe we have sanitized our way into superbugs and other diseases we have no resistance to because we haven't be naturally inoculated against them.
I realize that the focus of this blog is health; however, this issue raises critical legal issues as well. We have become far too complacent in allowing government intrusion into the most private and personal aspects of our lives. Regardless of what we believe about the health benefits of raw milk, it is completely unacceptable and intrusive for the government to require that we ingest processed foods of any kind--including pasteurized milk. Check the labels on your pasteurized skim and 1% or 2% milk. You will see two additives--Vitamin A palmitate and Vitamin D3. Do some Internet research on what those are: synthetic, chemically created (using toxic solvents) additives that replace what is lost when the butterfat is skimmed off. And not on the label: powdered milk (made by a process that some scientists say increases the risk of artheosclerosis) is added in to replicate the flavor lost when the cream is skimmed. Pasteurization is more than just heat treatment--we need to educate ourselves, then take back our right to choose our food.
So when exactly did the Mayo Clinic discontinue the Milk Cure?
I have read 2 articles on the Mayo Clinic website and am very disappointed in both. the first article was on dioxins coming from plastic. Zeratsky blames soil water fat fires & burning household trash w/o explanation, while giving "chemical & industrial processes" very little blame. This is a person bent on blaming individuals and nature for dioxin contamination when this is known not to be the case
When it comes to the focus of her article, plastics in the microwave or fridge transferring dioxins to food, she states "this isn't thought to be true"
What? The Mayo Clinic's nutrition representative, writing an article on dioxins in our food, blames people & nature for dioxin contamination then says she doesn't know if plastic contaminates food, then lists things to do to avoid the contamination she claims may not occur...
Now with the story on raw milk, Zeratsky displays the same disrespect for the truth as she had in the dioxin story. She uses fear-mongering "cause significant food-borne illness and can lead to hospitalization, kidney failure and even death" to scare us into line with the corporate philosophy regarding milk consumption
Unfortunately I am not surprised, but very disappointed
I'm surprised that the Mayo Clinic doesn't come out on the side of raw milk. It's not processed like white flour and most pre-packaged foods and it's been around for thousands of years. The Mayo Clinic used a raw milk therapy once upon a time, what happened?
nice post, Having a choice is never a bad thing.
Controversy! http://www.draxe.com/is-milk-hurting-or-helping-your-bones/
We bought our own cow after raw milk helped cure my husband of chronic illness. I used to think it was just the dairy lobbies trying to shut down sales from private one-cow families but now I think it's even more than that. I finished reading "The Milk Diet" by a doctor who cured patients of virtually everything with his special raw milk protocol. I learned that one of the founders of the Mayo Clinic was also a raw milk proponent and reported excellent results. What this means is that if correct use of raw milk can cure ourselves of most diseases without the aid of toxic drugs with debilitating side effects (which beget the use of even more drugs) then raw milk is indeed threatening to a very big (and political) industry.
When I bought my cow, I had to show her papers to no less than three USDA agents and they parked in front of my house for several days after that (I presume to see if I was selling milk). Talk about paranoia. I wish they would go after the meth users and illegal immigrants as much as me and my one little cow.
As a child I suffered from asthma, allergies, and eczema. Moreover, I sustained a severe injury to my skull and spine during an accident before age 10. All of the above compelled my family to trust the MDs, allergists, and nutritionists. Thirty years of hell ensued. I am now 39, and I do not hesitate to state that I would not be alive if it were not for raw milk (from grass-fed cows). This is not a "claim;" I am living proof of the effectiveness of this "white blood." I have consumed well over 2500 gallons of raw milk over the past 6 years, with nothing but positive results. I have won my life back, and the medical industry has lost my business for life.
The doctors were always quick to prescribe corticosteroids to treat the symptoms, but always failed to mention that naturally high doses of pure, easily assimilated and utilized cortisol could be found in every glass of raw milk. Never once was I advised to look to mother nature for the answers. Well, shame on them, but also shame on us for going right along with them.
Let me conclude by quoting one of the greats of the Mayo Foundation itself (pre-Mayo Clinic), Dr. J. Crewe: "For more than 16 years I have conducted a small sanitarium where milk is used almost exclusively in the treatment of various diseases. The results have been so regularly satisfactory that I have naturally become enthusiastic and interested in this method of treating disease."
Thank you, Mayo Clinic, for honoring your own
In the summer of 2009 I drank raw cow and goat milk. I never got sick once and I was "rolling the dice" everyday for 90 days. I will never touch pasteurized milk again. Also, don't be fooled, the only "real" reason the dairy industry wants milk pasteurized is because it significantly extends the shelf life of there product. PS. There are people in the world trying to pasteurize eggs in the shell! Find all of these people all and kill them before there ruin another amazing food! (The "killing them" part was a joke, don't do anything stupid because I think they only serve pasteurized milk in prison. lol)
Seems like from the comments and personal testimonies below that there are 2 logical conclusions from all this:
1: Clean and proper handling of raw foods (including milk) is REQUIRED. Poor hygienic and improper handling of anything raw WILL cause adverse effects and health issues.
2: Raw milk from cows has many health benefits that are in fact killed off and nullified by pasteurization. Ultra-pasteurization even causes free form L-Glutamine amino acids in the milk (by separating the amino acid from it's protein binding) which alone is responsible for MANY adverse health effects in the world to include autism and cancer, it's a processed building block of DNA which cells use as instructions to operate.
If I want to ingest anything which some overpaid institution questions as healthy I should have the choice to do so. So I can prove them wrong. My question is: why is America always being led by what corporations and bought-and-paid-for institutions say?
I reluctantly changed from pasturized to raw milk for a year during my teens. Although a sickly kid, I never got sick from the milk. I didn't like it for several months; after all it was thicker than normal whole milk (even with the cream skimmed off) and tasted like whatever weed, grass or flower the cows ate the day before). I did adjust to it and eventually liked it as well as pasturized. It came from about five miles away, from a family-member farm. We also ate fresh eggs from down the street from family-raised free range chickens, rabbits butchered on a back-yard chopping block, chickens we had to help kill/pluck from five miles away, venison that suddenly appeared on a kitchen table (just feet from my homework) to be butchered, and all types of pork from what seemed like a family pet strung up in the garage just hours before. All natural, but far from natural behavior for a city girl. None-the-less, we never got sick from any of it.
Just to be accurate, salmonella and E. coli 0157:H7, don't come from raw milk, rather they are CONTAMINATES that come from other sources. The Proponents of pasteurization may well be motivated by industry profits and therefore their opinions may be contaminated.
Its funny that there are now yogurts adding live (good) bacterias to their pasteurized products and claiming digestive health benefits. First we have to kill the good stuff and then add good stuff back, I guess there is profit in Processing food.
Pasteurization was an extraordinarily sound choice for protecting public health. But, so long as no raw-milk-born diseases are directly communicable then certainly allow raw milk fans to play roulette with their own health, and that of their children.
If long odds sound like a safe bet..... even with your life at stake, then spin the wheel. And, if the odds do swing against a few....they certainly will remember to say, " I insisted I knew best and that I would handle the risk."
This is kind of silly, but I want to know where people get raw milk that tastes sweeter than homogenized. The raw milk we tried recently tasted like clover--not pleasant at all.
I'm with Anita on having a choice being good.
Anything that is "dirty" can and will infect you! Example: if you eat an organic apple or a non-organic apple (it does not matter) IF THE person that picked, packed, unpacked AND placed the food ON the stand used the toilet and did not wash his/her hands before... you may ingest bacteria or ??? Additionally, the transportation meduim : a truck, a train, a knap-sack can also add to the possibility of contamination! If ANY food is kept 100% "CLEAN!!!!" THE FACTOR OF BEING RAW IS NOT THE CULPRIT!!!! But, rather the hand, the conveyance, or the packing that touches will infect!!! That is why a doctor is " supposed" to wear "Disposable" gloves when examining you! Bacteria and viruses have $$$$$$ attached! If we hired all the food handlers with Ph.D.'s then the price of food would be beyind the reach of many! So we compromise! I have complained more than once when I saw a food handler displaying organic apples...after blowing his nose! We can't put a "bacteria" policeman" in every food chain!!! BUT, We can wash the apple when we get home! However, we cannot "wash the millk." So we heat or boil it! The best we can do is to "EDUCATE" ALL TO BE AS "CLEAN AS POSSIBLE." EVEN THE "BOSS" WHO IS JUST INTERESTED IN MAKING $$$$$
Having a choice is never a bad thing.
Raw Milk contains enzymes and lactase producing bacteria needed by our bodies to break down and assimilate the milk sugar lactose. These helpful bacteria are killed in the pasteurization/homogenization process. Due to the presence of lactase in Raw Milk, people with lactose intolerance are normally able to consume non-processed dairy products without any ill effect.
I would respectfully suggest that the Doctor's Nelson & Zeratsky due some more research into this topic, so as to have a more informed opinion prior to writing an article. The following sentance; "The FDA and other public health officials, however, point out that these claims aren't supported by research." shows me that you two are either not fully up to speed on this topic, or have a bias against raw milk. There have been several reputable medical studies conducted across europe that do in fact support those claims. As well as numerous studies that show cause for concern regarding hidden health hazards of both pasteurization and Homogenization of milk.
Due to being limited to 1500 characters I won't be able to cite every study or medical article in support of my comments, nor the long list of medical professionals (MD's, DD's, ND's, RD's, FACN's, CNS's, CCN's) in support of Raw Milk and Raw milk related research and studies. Instead I implore you to have some integrity and actually take the time to become informed before hoping on the FDA bandwagon.
Look up: J. R. Crewe, MD... Weston A Price, DDS... and Ron Schmid, ND for starters. Once you're up to speed on that you might be interested to know that over here in Germany we still use the same basic methods as Dr. Crewe to successfully treat and in rare causes cure IBD?
For folks leaving comments; Use an open mind, and perhaps a grain of salt or two... an head over to realmilk.com to get a different persp
A person named Celia has posted below that she feels she must drink raw milk because she is "lactose intolerant." Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a person who is truly lactose intolerant have problems with milk products in general? Lactose intolerance apparently has to do with the inability to digest milk sugars, and are not milk sugars present in the raw product too?
While visiting in India during the 1990's, I stayed in a few rural or even city residential places that brewed their morning tea with milk from a family cow every morning. After milking the cow (or cows, depending on the number of people to be served), a metal bucket was carried into the kitchen and the milk was boiled for some time before anyone ever drank it.
The same with preparation of yogurt; the milk went through a heating process before it was put into a bowl and left in a cupboard overnight for "curd rice" the next day.
No matter how simple the lifestyle of the people, noone ever filled a glass from the udder and drank it. It isn't the same as when a human baby takes milk from its human mother.
As long as raw milk comes from a licensed store or farm, I don't see a problem. I am lacto intolerant, and raw milk is the only dairy I can drink. People depend on pasteurization for cleaness so it doesn't matter how old or dirty the milk is when it reaches the plant.
People who grew up on raw milk consumed it at or near the farm, so fresh that even special cooling was not needed to keep down bacteria. Now, huge farms and long-distance transportation of milk require extra attention to keep it from making people sick. My neighbor got a terrible listeriosis from eating unpasturized cheese and is still brain-damaged.
WE are encourage to eat fresh veggies and fruit, raw and steamed because of the health benefits as cooking kills most of the nutrition in them. I grew up with raw milk and for 4 generations there was never a problem. It all depends on the farmer and how clean he keeps is livestock. If you buy from someone who takes care of his cows there isn't a problem. We were always picky about where our milk came from. Just like buying anything else - you need to research the supplier.
I have read the stupid reports about the safety of pasteurized milk but that is because they have killed all the benefit out of the milk. I used to drink raw milk and I was well and never got sick but after pasteurization I fell victim to all sorts of problems. Bring back raw milk and health will improve.
I grew up on raw milk and never had a problem. My wife also used raw milk till our local farmer died.
The secret is proper handling. Growing up, we got the milk within minutes of the milking and it went directly to our refrigerator. Mom had 11 kids and none had problems. Clean handling and proper storage is the secret.
Raw milk still causes diseases in my local area, and I would not like to see legislative changes.
I grew up consuming raw milk and its products and consider myself very luck to have avoided: Bovine Tuberculosis; Listeriosis; eColi Infection; and the list goes on. There is a reason for pasteurization and its for our protection. I love the taste of raw milk, especially when its still steaming in the pail but I would not drink it today. Raw Milk may offer protection from various problems but so does many other things. We need the pasteurization.
Since raw milk is so much more digestible than pasteurized milk testing should be done to see if it would be beneficial in reducing osteoporosis. My children were healthy and completely tooth decay free while young and consuming gallons and gallons of fresh raw milk from a Jersey herd grazing on the hills of Vermont. They loved it and I loved it-cooking with it is incredible. Unlike pasteurized milk it is refreshing and thirst quenching-delicioius and it is healthful.
"prior to pasteurization, raw milk accounted for up to 25% of outbreaks of food..." This statement implies that it was pasteurization that cleared the problems up. I heard that these problems were eliminated before pasteurization was mandated. Pasteurization started in the mid 1940's after the problems were eliminated through better hygiene and eliminating the urban farms that were the source of the problem. It's a sly way of stating a fact to imply something that isn't true.
Health risk. I had a close friend fall ill due to raw milk consumption. People manage dairy farms and people make mistakes.
A great new site on raw milk pros and cons is www.realrawmilkfacts.com
Cheeses made from unpasteurized milk is part of the success of the very best cheeeses in the world.
Unpasteurized milk should be sold as an option. Maybe additional care in processing should be mandated.
I believe that raw milk should be made available to anyone that wants to consume it. Sure there are risks
however, those risks are eliminated with 100% free range cattle, all the risks reported can be connected to all the growth hormones, antibiotics and who knows what other drugs to speed up the growth for maximum profit. I had the pleasure of visiting Slovenia recently,
and had my first taste of raw milk, squirted into a tall glass compliments of Anja, who was 100% free range and drug free, I never had any health problems after, and I never felt as good after drinking pasturised as I did drinking raw milk. Give us that choice, as we know the risks just as we know the risks of a fast food diet, smoking and drinking alcohol which have all been known to kill in one way or another, yet why is no one is debating whether or not to put restrictions on these?
we must get raw milk, like raw meat @ vegetables
My understanding is that pasteurization "denatures" or renders useless some of the very important amino acids (especially branched chain amino acids) in milk. Additionally, pasteurization removes some of the immune system boosters (immunoglobulins). These elements reportedly help boost glutathione in the body. So, I think raw milk should be available to those who desire to consume it.
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Horse enthusiasts in Emery County, ages 8-18, can participate in Horse 4-H. For those who have participated during the past year, an awards night was held recently. During the summer, the young people had the chance to participate in five shows around the state. Each earns points at the shows, and when the season is finished, the top five point winners in each of the three age groups are selected to go to the state competition, which this year was held in Heber on Sept 22-24.
In the junior division, the top five were: Camie Whittle, Cindi Stevens, McKoy Allred, Jorgen Allred and McKenzie Juggert. In the intermediate division, the winners were: Mandy Langston, Benjamin Toomer, Mindi Luke, Dakin Allred, and Meran Allred. In the senior division, the winners were: Cade Whittle, Tawny Conder, Melissa Toomer, Kelby Farnsworth, and Jesse Jensen.
Other participants in the Horse 4-H program are: Dallas Hurst, McKlane Allred, Sidnee Conder, Heidi Toomer, Chet Funk, Brett Sorensen, Katina Farnsworth, Gentry Guymon, Markie Rudman, Brady Jensen, Kelby Funk, Sarah Jensen, Michelle Sorrells, Maegan Luke, McKay Allred, Whitney Jensen, Vicki Rudman, Misha Johnson, Keven Jensen, KC Shaw, Baylie Bohn, and Jacie Fasselin.
The top five winners in each age group won matching red hoodies to wear at the state competition. The top two in each division were given belt buckles, and each of the riders who entered a record book was given a cash prize.
Jack Funk is the president of the horse council, and Wendy and Eldon Whittle, Bob Toomer, Terry Langston, and Tammy Funk are the leaders.

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Bally Waldi Satin Flower Pump
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Free Agency: It's a $70 million Cap World, Now
Jonathan Willis
July 01 2012 08:04AM
It's difficult to wrap one's mind around the economics of an NHL with a salary cap ceiling of $70.2 million. It was just a little over six years ago, after all, that the ceiling was $39.0 million coming out of the lockout, and salaries have escalated apace.
The contracts signed today are going to seem crazy, but the trick is to view them in the context of the salary cap (often, they're still crazy, but typically much less so).
Take, for instance, the Paul Gaustad deal. My initial, immediate reaction was that the dollars were crazy, but it's not nearly the overpay I thought it was. Let's compare it to the (admittedly rich) deals that the Oilers offered Fernando Pisani and Ethan Moreau.
Moreau was signed to a four year contract extension early in the 2006-07 season, a deal with an annual cap hit of $2.0 million per year. The salary cap that season was $44.0 million – and as we learned in the fallout of Ryan Smyth's first departure, the Oilers didn't really expect it to keep escalating. That $2.0 million represented 4.5% of the Oilers' cap room - $3.2 million in today's terms.
The Oilers signed Pisani to a four-year extension in the summer of 2006 on a deal with an average cap hit of $2.5 million per year. Again, we'll use the $44.0 million salary cap for the season ahead, and once again we need to realize that the Oilers didn't expect things to keep going up. That deal represented 5.7% of the Oilers' cap room - $4.0 million in today's terms.
Paul Gaustad is a better player today than either Moreau or Pisani was on the day the Oilers signed him (though the Oilers' vision was likely clouded by Pisani's insane shooting percentage in the 2006 playoffs). He inked a deal with an annual cap hit of $3.25 million – easily in the same range as those two players, and I would argue less of an overpay than either Moreau or Pisani received from Edmonton.
It's the same logic that got Ales Hemsky $5.0 million per year. What would he get as a free agent today? It's going to be worth watching what the UFA wingers sign for – it's a thin class, and as players get inked it will thin out even more. Players with talent are going to get paid because it's a limited marketplace, teams are trying to reach the salary floor, and other teams suddenly have tons of cap room thanks to the rise in the ceiling.
The dollars are going to seem crazy. It's just important to keep them in perspective.
This week by Jonathan Willis
- Jay Grossman talks about the Khabibulin contract
- The UFA market for defensemen: it's going to get ugly
- Ralph Krueger: in the driver's seat
- Oilers' development camp invites
- Jets re-sign Ondrej Pavelec, pay top dollar
- Oilers issue qualifying offers to seven
- Report: Oilers interested in Blackhawks' defenseman Niklas Hjalmarsson
- The 2012 NHL Entry Draft: Recap
- Should the Oilers have made a pitch for Zbynek Michalek?
- The Oilers select forward Mitch Moroz 32nd overall
- The Jets select Lukas Sutter 39th overall
- The Canucks select Alexandre Mallet 57th overall
- The top five ranked players left after the end of the first round
July 01 2012, 08:06AM
fist on fist, stealing from the last post.
thats a good jump for sure,but think when we have to extend hall,eberle,rnh,yaks and schultz over the next 1-3 years,do we have room for a suter type defenceman?if not who do you see them targeting
July 01 2012, 08:11AM
Mr Willis,
Do you think Smyth gets done before the deadline?
Why all the talk of S. Doan, isn't he a RW?
What back up goaltenders(1B) are out there and who is playing in OKC?
Thanks Happy Canada Day!
July 01 2012, 08:39AM
i turned thirty the day Pisani scored that goal.....what a night. Never noticed the trainer hitting the glass with the towel. Who's hand is that that swatted at him to wise up? UFA's..... whether signing one or loosing one, its the scariest acronym in sports.
July 01 2012, 09:42AM
Good read JW
With the constant rumors of Bouwmeester being on the market do you think the Oilers should make a play at him?
I think he's got to be one of the better D-men available?
Also, would you take a risk on ether Armstrong or Latendresse?
I also read Ottawa's could move Bishop.
July 01 2012, 09:43AM
Smyth signed! 2 years 4.5 million, not bad at all!
July 01 2012, 09:47AM
So TSN is reporting Smyth signed 2 years at 4.5 mil!
July 01 2012, 09:56AM
Is there going to be a live chat room tracker during the day?
NM it's on Flamesnation
July 01 2012, 11:40AM
Willis, As incredibly unlikely as it is, I think you could make an excellent GM. Mostly because I tend to agree with you.


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Sort by: Viator Recommends | Traveler Rating | Most Recent
Lucerne Suggested Itineraries
By Viator, December 2016
1361 Ratings | Tours & Tickets
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While beautiful in their own right, Zurich and Lucerne also serve as gateways to the idyllic pastures, lakes and mountaintops of Switzerland's countryside. To experience the best of Switzerland ... Read more
Mt Pilatus Day Trips from Lucerne
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Encircled by towering peaks and glittering lakes, if you?re looking to take in Switzerland?s famous mountain vistas, Lucerne is ideally situated, with easy access to the Top of Europe at ... Read more
Jungfrau Tours from Lucerne
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Soaring above the Bernese Alps, the perennially snow-dusted Jungfrau is one of Switzerland?s most emblematic mountains. Forming the postcard backdrop to Interlaken and the Bernese Oberland, the ... Read more
Bernese Oberland Day Trips
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With its dramatic panorama of snow-smothered peaks, glacial valleys and lush lakelands, the Bernese Oberland is postcard Switzerland at its most enchanting, and it?s no surprise that the idyllic ... Read more
Swiss Alps Day Trips from Lucerne
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With its dramatic location surrounded by snowy peaks and shimmering lakes, you can?t visit Lucerne without taking a trip into the mountains. Hair-raisingly steep peaks and breathtaking glaciers are ... Read more
Lucerne Tours from Zurich
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Lucerne is a picturesque city in the heart of Switzerland.� Founded in 1179, it sits across Lake Lucerne from the town of Altdorf, where legend has it that William Tell shot an apple off his son?s ... Read more
Day Trips to Lucerne from Zurich
By Viator, September 2013
With Lucerne less than 1 hour from the center of Zurich, it?s easy to swap city life for a sojourn in the Swiss countryside and there are a number of options for day trips. Perched on the banks of ... Read more


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Is it too early to start thinking about Valentine's Day?
Well, if you enjoy making your own Valentine cards, I think now is the time to be thinking of ideas. I have always LOVED making Valentine cards with my kids to give to their classmates. So I've been busy collecting ideas!
Here are some great Valentine ideas that have inspired me..
I hope you find some that inspire you too!
DIY Doilie Candy Hearts
at Chic Tags
DIY Doilie Candy Hearts
at Chic Tags
Nuts & Bolts Candy Robots
owner unknown... found HERE
at Modern Parents Messy Kids
at Etsy by kraze4paper
at Tammy Mitchell Photography
at Mer Mag
at Gratz Industries
at Etsy by Jojolarue
at Martha Stewart
at Funky Polkadot Giraffe
at Shim & Sons
at Keepin' it Real
at Tammy Mitchell Photography
at Two Shades of Pink
at Etsy by kraze4paper
at Living with ThreeMoonBabies
at Zakka Life
at The Crafting Chicks
at Winter Dandee
at Positively Splendid
at The Teacher Wife
At Second Street
at Giver's Log
at Impressions
at A Small Snippit
at Life in the Thrifty Lane
at All Things Simple
at eighteen25
at See Jane Blog
at I am Momma - Hear Me Roar
at Martha Stewart
... and from here at Sun Scholars
Hershey Kiss Valentine Roses
Still looking for more??
Check out my latest collection of AMAZING homemade valentines HERE.
Still looking for more??
Check out my latest collection of AMAZING homemade valentines HERE.
Happy Valentine Crafting!!!


text:
By REX D. JONESHuntington
Dear Editor,
U.S. Highway 6 between Green River and Spanish Fork should become an Interstate Highway. And, Utah Highway 10 between Price and I-70 should become a four-lane minimum access highway. These highways currently meet the needs of the 1950s and 1960s. Intra and inter state commerce travelers use these highways today. Safety on these highways must be improved.
We have different personalities and age groups traveling our highways. Long convoys of traffic along these highways have become an unfortunate standard. There are many people who misjudge their ability to pass safely within these long convoys�serious accidents happen as a result. Further, having a four-lane highway might expose speeding travelers to an awaiting state trooper.
Although many tax dollars go to the Wasatch Front, much of the traffic and highway users travel in other parts of the state going to, coming from or passing through the Wasatch Front. The traffic demands an improvement in highway safety in other parts of the state...and the need is now.


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By SLIM RANDLES
Anita brought Dud some coffee at 9 p.m. and gave her husband a hug. He had two lines typed on a sheet of paper, with the rest of the manuscript sitting beside it.
"How's it going?" she asked.
"Slow right now, Hon."
"It'll come," she said. "You'll see." Then she left quietly.
Dud Campbell opened the desk drawer and pulled out the title page of the book again. He had typed it up specially, just the way he wanted it, and Anita had put it on the computer.
"Murder in the Soggy Bottoms," it read. "By Dudley M. Campbell."
He smiled.
Of course, the guys down at the Mule Barn truck stop referred to Dud's once-rejected mystery as "The Duchess and the Truck Driver," because the story involves, well, a duchess and a truck driver. After its initial rejection by the publisher, Dud decided to modify it so there would be only three murders in chapter one, rather than the original eight. It has taken some doing, but he plugs away at it when he gets time.
He sipped the coffee and looked out the window at the streetlight shining on the snow in the yard. Do you suppose every artist goes through this? How many mystery writers, Dud thought, face this very same dilemma? For two of the murders, not a problem. But he couldn't decide who murdered number three or why. This seems to be pretty important to the story, so he has to figure it out. Like a puzzle.
He could go with just two murders, he supposed, but that third victim deserved killing, that was the problem. Could he have two murderers? One could knock off the two, the other take care of the third?
Oh well, it's a cold, dark winter's night and a good time for thinking, and the coffee's good. And Dud still has his day job, of course. Such things are probably the cornerstones of great creative work.
Brought to you by 3Rivers Archery, the home of traditional shooting. Visit them at www.3riversarchery.com.


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These flat wooden shapes can be painted or glued and used in a multitude of dimensional craft projects. The large value pack of 1000 pieces, ranging in size from 1 in. to 1 1/2 in., includes a variety of shapes such as stars, circles, ovals, squares, triangles, and hearts.
There are also individual packs of various sized hearts and stars ranging from 1 1/8 in. to 3 3/8 in. in size.
There are also individual packs of various sized hearts and stars ranging from 1 1/8 in. to 3 3/8 in. in size.
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(October 24) Today we're celebrating . . . Dhanteras – 5 Days of Diwali: Day 01
Dhanteras (Hindu)
5 Days of Diwali: Day 01
In many regions of India and other Hindu nations, the first day of Diwali is marked by a holiday called Dhanteras. At sunset, Hindus bathe and offer a diya (lighted oil lamp) to Yama Raj, the Lord of Death, for protection from an untimely death.
Homes and business are decorated with diyas and kandils (colorful paper lanterns). Many also offer a fire ritual for good health and strength in the coming year.
More: Diwali on the Net – Day 01: Dhanteras -The Festival of Wealth
photo credit: via flickr


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Cole Haan Kids Air Sheila 2 Girls Youth Rain Boot
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Item # 255966
She'll be walking in the rain in ridiculous style with these adorable Air Sheila 2 rain boots from Cole Haan Kids.
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What if you got up in the morning and put on your favorite pair of jeans, sat down in front of your vanity (or if you're like us, opened a pocket mirror on the the subway during the morning commute) and proceeded to apply denim makeup to your face! You read about the Sally Hansen denim manicure, but what if we took it a step further? This super-creative photo shoot from WAD Magazine shows us what life might be like for the denim obsessed if they had their way!
Images via The Style Bliss.
—Michelle Christina Larsen
Tags: denim cosmetics, denim eyelashes, denim lips, denim makeup, denim nails, WAD magazine


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American Games - 20th Century Classics for Winds: Schoenberg, Cushing, Maw et al.
1 CD / Altissimo / 2012-02-28Works: Nicholas Maw: American Games, for band; Charles Cushing: Angel Camp, for band; Florent Schmitt: Dionysiaques for band, Op. 62; Nikos Skalkottas: Greek Dances; Arnold Schoenberg: Theme and Variations ...
Performers: United States Marine Band, The
Conductors: Foley, Timothy
Ensemble: United States Marine Band
From the earliest days of our nation, the United States Marine Band's primary mission has been to provide the best music in the world to...continue...
Recording information: Center for the Arts, George Mason University, Fairfax, (06/23/1997-06/27/1997)....continue...
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Bebe Perform Bootie
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Fringe is in! Represent in a rockin' way with the Bebe Perform. This bootie has a fierce platform and heel that will take your style to new heights.
- Suede upper
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By: swt1
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December 11, 2013
"when I pulled them out of the box, I immediately noticed some discolored spots on them. upon further inspection I realized that the spots were places where the material had thinned, almost like they had been worn many times! I plan on returning them as soon as I can get to a store to do so, as I would hate to have to pay to return something that was shipped to me in such condition!! will not be ordering shoes again anytime soon, this experience has taught me to put my hands and eyes on shoes before I buy them!"
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Narrower Frames, an Update
By Camilla Bee, Editor Last month we featured an article on narrower frames, reviewing their advantages and the philosophy behind them. We asked for feedback, as we're considering producing them commercially. We hope to have an answer as to whether we can do them or not, and if so, how soon they'd Read more >


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Skip to comments.(Culture War Rages On): California bans 'brides,' 'grooms'
Posted on 09/09/2008 8:35:52 AM PDT by Publius804
California bans 'brides,' 'grooms'
License rejected for couple seeking traditional marriage
Posted: September 08, 2008 9:05 pm Eastern
By Chelsea Schilling
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
ROSEVILLE, Calif. "Brides" and "grooms" are no longer allowed to marry in the State of California.
That privilege is only extended to individuals who allow themselves to be called "Party A" and "Party B" on marriage licenses.
Pastor Doug Bird of Abundant Life Fellowship in Roseville, Calif., was alarmed to find the state now rejects the traditional terms after he officiated his first marriage ceremony last week following the California Supreme Court decision to overturn Proposition 22.
The couple had written the words "bride" and "groom" next to "Party A" and "Party B" because they wanted to be legally recognized as husband and wife.
However, the Placer County marriage license was denied.
"I received back the license and a letter from the Placer County Clerk/Recorder stating that the license 'does not comply with California State registration laws,'" Bird said in a statement from the Pacific Justice Institute.
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
Culture war is right.
Soon you wont be able to say ANYTHING about homosexual marriage.
If you do, you will be liable to be nailed to a cross over it. (it is coming)
Party A and Party B
Why not just Comrade?
Y'all are in the center of wacko-land. My prayers are with you.
I hope you all don't think this is just politically correct speak. There is a lot more to this verbage change and homosexuality is the red herring.
THIS is about changing parental rights with children to STAKEHOLDERS.
In the United States, courts often must determine who the legal parents are among the many adults who might be involved in planning, conceiving, birthing, and raising a child. Judges in several states have seized upon the idea of psychological parenthood to award legal parent status to adults who are not related to children by blood, adoption, or marriage. They have done so even over the objection of the childs biological parent. Advances in the same-sex marriage debate have encouraged group marriage advocates who wish to break open the two-person understanding of marriage and parenthood.
The National Health Education Standards has gone further and envoked in loco parentis by redefining parents as families. Families have been classified as stakeholders. Childrens stakeholders are being identified as any entity that is seen as a resource in a childs community. The legal definition of stakeholder is a third party who temporarily holds money or property while its owner is still being determined.
This is much bigger than a 'culture war' AIT. I've been screaming in the wind with my post 6 for over a year now. I don't know if no one listens or no one gets it. Probably both.
Next? They are already there. We will never again darken the door of a Hallmark store.
Ohio is signed on with Healthy People too.
The 'gay' part of all of this is to hide the redefining of the legal language.
IOW, this is already policy in your state and no one has figured out how to introduce it to you.
I think they should make it multiple choice. Groom/Butch Lesbian/Gay male #1/Animal Fetishist on one line and Bride/Lipstick Lesbian/Pansy/Girlyman/Animal's name and species on the next.
Yes, this is pathetic but I think this particular incident is less a bias in favor of gay marriage and more a bias in favor of bureaucracy and the general rule that one does not alter an officially-recorded vital record form. There is a battle to be fought but this is a minor skirmish compared to the main conflicts. The best approach, to me, would be to have legislation authorizing two different official forms or a form which permitted the parties to specifically designate Partner A or B or Bride or Groom. Yes, the gay mafia would fight it but it would overcome the near impregnable refusal of bureaucrats to change a procedure.
And the MSM and Lefties wonder why Governor Palin is such a hit.....
Ping to article and post 6.
HSLDA has been covering Healthy People 2010
Healthy People 2010 is huge. It has 28 categorized initiatives encompased that branch off into far reaching initiatives with public private partnerships and grants programs.
Healthy People 2010 has been being introduced incrementally. In sections, it looks harmless; but when the initiatives are zipped together, it is devastating.
One of the aims of Healthy People 2010 is to end private ownership and rights. It makes us stakeholders of our properties. It makes us stakeholders of our personal rights. That means of our health and our children.
State departments of educations have been encompassing in loco parentis in their Healthy Schools programs. Healthy Schools is the evil offspring of Health People 2010. This is about MORE than issuing birth control. This is MORE than homosexuals marrying. THIS is about changing parental rights with children to STAKEHOLDERS.
I think Ohio has simply used blank spaces for years. I united ______ and _________ in marriage.
Fruit and Loop?
This is more than about marriage. Please read the posts I've made.
Thanks for the link, Calpernia. There is much happening on many fronts the average person is not aware of, and unless you are in a position to be confronted by the policy being implemented, it is easy to be unaware.
These are related threads.
Animal Tagging and SCHOOL LUNCHES???
Healthy People 2010
Obviously a narrow-minded, un-inclusive ruling
- Where is "Party A/C" and "Party D/C?"
The Left, Marxists, and Satan
want to destroy the traditional family unit.
The family is the core unit of civilization. It is also the place where parents learn, from their children, about their own relationship with the Holy Father.
A Global Kidnapping
Around the world, the two-person, mother-father model of parenthood is being fundamentally challenged.
In Canada, with virtually no debate, the controversial law that brought about same-sex marriage quietly included the provision to erase the term natural parent across the board in federal law, replacing it with the term legal parent.
With that law, the power in defining who a childs parents are shifts precipitously from civil society to the state, with the consequences as yet unknown.
In Spain, after the recent legalization of same-sex marriage the legislature changed the birth certificates for all children in that nation to read Progenitor A and
Progenitor B instead of mother and father. With that change, the words mother and father were struck from the first document issued to every newborn by the state.
Similar proposals have been made in other jurisdictions that have legalized same-sex marriage.
In New Zealand and Australia, influential law commissions have proposed allowing children conceived with use of sperm or egg donors to have three legal parents.
In the United States, courts often must determine who the legal parents are among the many adults who might be involved in planning, conceiving, birthing, and raising a child. In a growing practice, judges in several states have seized upon the idea of psychological parenthood to award legal parent status to adults who are not related to children by blood, adoption, or marriage. They have done so even over the objection of the childs biological parent. Advances in the same-sex marriage debate have encouraged group marriage advocates who wish to break open the two-person understanding of marriage and parenthood.
The National Health Education Standards has gone further and envoked in loco parentis by redefining parents as families. Families have been classified as stakeholders. Children's stakeholders are being identified as any entity that is seen as a resource in a child's community.
Quote from NationalGuidelines.org http://www.nationalguidelines.org/guideline.cfm?guideNum=0-12 :
>>Schools often have insufficient resources to provide a comprehensive and multifaceted continuum of interventions. By having direct contact with families and key informants in the community, schools are better able to identify barriers to student success and well-being and better equipped to develop solutions that overcome these barriers. Schools can enhance home-school links by sharing concerns with families and developing solutions that address students' unique needs.
In addition to the benefits for students' education and well-being, students' families, and school staff, there are reciprocal benefits for community agencies who partner with schools. Businesses, the justice system, community health and safety systems, and others may benefit from a healthier population. Community agencies and organizations that provide services to children and families often gain a more visible profile when they become partners with schools.
Examples of neighborhood stakeholders in student health and well-being are students themselves, as well as their families and teachers. Other school staff, community business owners, police, faith-based institutions, universities and colleges, local health departments, health and mental health service providers, dentists, emergency medical services, educators of first-aid, departments of health, justice, education and social services, and other agencies that serve families have stakes in the well-being of the student population and school staff. Communicate regularly with partners and potential partners in order to learn what each has to offer.<<
Do mothers and fathers matter to children? Is there anything specialanything worth supportingabout the two-person, mother-father model? Are children commodities to be produced by the marketplace? What role should the state have in defining parenthood? When adult rights clash with childrens needs, how should the conflict be resolved?
...and the next sound you hear is California sliding into the ocean!
Well, now, we can't have that, can we? That would interfere with the plans of the Unholy Big Brother.
They came out with their own gov site since I've started following this hydra
Take a look.
Example of how the legal language gets snuck in and changed.
Anti-Bullying Bill Up for Senate Vote Today
My blog post covering NJ's Anti Bullying Bill. Sounds irrelevant to this right?
No, it is not.
Look at the language in Section 2c.
Section 2c has the Attorney General listed as parens patriae.
The AG as Parens Patriae is not listed as acting for this (bullying) situation, but languaged as 'as being'.
Parens patriae was sometimes evoked by courts during conflicts in family disputes because not all courts always had jurisdiction and the courts weren't always obliged to take that doctrine.
But this language states that the Attorney General IS the parens patriae of children.
This means, in loco parentis has been implemented in our state and we are late to the notification. Just the same as changing the marriage license language means it was implemented in California, and the people there are late to the notification.
In loco parentis is Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent". IOW parents have become Stakeholders or third party holders.
I am a BRIDE - period! The MAN marrying me is a GROOM - period! This town is sick in the head! This sickness must be ended once and for all. MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A HUMAN MAN AND A HUMAN FEMALE - period! I don't care what you do in your bedroom, legislating for you is out of the question - period!
Help stop these evil doers from making themselves more equal than the rest of us.
Getting or not getting a license won't change the legal status of people's children. The language change is confirmation that the legal status has been changed.
Party A and Party B.
Do not insert Tab A into Slot B. Just get some Scotch tape and afix two Tab As together I guess.
Californicators leading our way to Sodom.
In the disturbed minds of the liberal societal deconstructionists we won't have reached complete enlightenment until all of our children are raised in hatcheries a la Brave New World.
The Lebensborn Project never really shut down.
you are kidding me. for me, i always said that will mark the beginning of the end of the united states of america.
THIS is about changing parental rights with children to STAKEHOLDERS. <<<
Communism in its purest form...all children belong to the state.
Next comes the removing them from ALL homes, so the brainwashing begins at birth.
Communism or Hitler, not a lot of difference to me, all evil.
>>>Communism or Hitler, not a lot of difference to me, all evil.
This is more of a true statement then will ever be touched on. German agents helped from Lenin from Siberia and helped smuggle him back into Russia to seat him. Cleon Skousen is the only one I've seen so far to tell that story.
Cleon Skousen is the only one Ive seen so far to tell that story.<<<
Cleon attempted to tell us what was coming and it did come.
The Communist Manifesto 1963, in real life today.
Since people always try to debunk the 'Communist Manifesto', I'm adding this as a footnote:
Communist Manifesto is printed in
The Naked Communist by W. Cleon Skousen, bio: http://www.skousen2000.com/biography.htm
The Communist Manifesto was written in 1847 by Karl Marx and Friederich Engels when they were invited to join the Federation of Just (later renamed the Communist League). It was adopted by the Federation of Just congress and called the declaration of principles or Manifesto to the World.
Marx and Engels were commissioned into the Federation of Just in Brussels. They announced the New Program of International Communism with a plea for revolution to:
overthrow capitalism, abolition of private property, elimination of the family as a social unit, abolition of all classes, overthrow of all governments and the establishment of a communist order with communal ownership of property.
Karl Marx put all his ideas down in a book called Capital. One of his students, Mikhail Bakunin, smuggled this book back into Russia. Lenin, who embraced the writings, was installed by GERMAN officials after the Tsar was murdered.
I highly recommend reading this book. It is hard to find since it is out of print. It was written as training material for students and the armed forces.
so the state of california is now messing with teh establishment and free exercise clause.
bring on the federal suits.
I'm so tired of seeing that perverted image...
Cal, thank you for the info on the source of the manifesto, I have copied it for later.
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text:
John Taylor, British Museum
This is the latest in a series of posts about the unfolding of the Norwich shroud, a joint project between the British Museum and Norwich Castle Museum and Art Gallery
In the last few weeks the shroud of Ipu has given up more – but not all – of its secrets. A close comparison of the piece belonging to Norwich Castle Museum with a photograph of the portions in the Cairo Museum has shown that the torn edges certainly join. The Cairo fragments have parts of spells from the Book of the Dead, some of the missing words of which are supplied by the piece belonging to Norwich.
All of the texts on the Cairo pieces have been published by Irmtraut Munro, and I have now identified those on the Norwich section. So we can now say that the shroud contained the words of at least 23 spells, and it is possible that others were originally present, which are now lost.
The texts on the Cairo portion include spells to allow the dead person freedom of movement, air to breathe and the ability to control one's heart. There is also a self-contained group known as the 'Transformation Spells', which enabled the dead to assume different forms, including those of a falcon, a heron, a swallow and the god Ptah.
The main part of the Norwich fragment contains spell 64, one of the most complex and obscure of all the texts in the Book of the Dead. It makes various allusions to the nature of the creator god, to the supernatural powers which the dead person claims and to his/her ability to escape the confinement of the tomb so as to enjoy the life-giving rays of the sun. It ends with a long rubric – the conspicuous columns in red ink – which recounts the mythical finding of the words of the spell inscribed on a brick beneath the feet of a statue of the god Thoth in the temple of Hermopolis.
This remarkable document is said to have been discovered 'in the time of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Menkaure, true of voice, by the King's Son Hordjedef, who found it when he was going about to make inspection of the temples.' After spell 64 come spell 30B, which prevented the dead person's heart from betraying him/her at the judgement, spell 100, which enabled the deceased to enter the sun god's barque, part of spell 149, a description of the mounds of the netherworld, and lastly spell 136B for 'sailing in the barque of Re'.
Several other mummy shrouds bearing Book of the Dead texts are known from the 17th and early 18th Dynasties (sixteenth century BC). Three are in the British Museum, but these differ from Ipu's shroud in having coloured illustrations as well as texts. In fact, the closest parallels for Ipu's inscriptions are to be found on the shrouds of members of the court who were buried at Thebes. Not only are these written in a similar style but there is a high degree of consistency in the particular spells chosen and in the sequence which they follow.
So, who was Ipu? The Cairo pieces of the shroud include her title, khekeret nesu, which can be loosely translated as 'Lady in Waiting'. It was borne by women who belonged to the court and who were usually members of high-ranking families . So Ipu was evidently a person of consequence; whether any other records of her survive has yet to be discovered.
Where was the shroud found? Nothing definite is known about the Norwich part before it was bought by JJ Colman in 1897, but the piece now in Cairo is reported to have come from excavations by Gaston Maspero at Deir el-Bahri on the Theban west bank in 1891. But since we know Maspero was not in Egypt in 1891 this date is probably incorrect.
Another very similar shroud in Cairo has exactly the same recorded provenance but independent evidence shows that this one, made for a man named Mentuhotep, was found in the Royal Cache at Deir el-Bahri. This secret tomb, cleared under Maspero's authority in 1881, contained the mummies of many of the kings, queens and lesser royalty of the 17th to 20th Dynasties, hidden there for safe keeping at the end of the New Kingdom. Almost all of their original valuable trappings had long gone; most of them were enclosed in second-hand coffins and some were wrapped in linen that had been made for other people and recycled. Mentuhotep's inscribed shroud had been reused to wrap around the mummy of a princess Merytamun.
So, did Ipu's shroud perhaps come from this same tomb, where it had been reused to wrap a royal mummy? The villagers of Qurna who found the cache about 1871 removed many portable items and sold them during the years before the official clearance in 1881, so the possibility exists that the Norwich shroud passed in this way into the stock of a local antiquities dealer, before eventually entering the collection of Colman.
The shroud will be discussed in depth during the free Study Day Unveiling the Norwich Shroud: an ancient Egyptian shroud conserved and revealed at the British Museum on Thursday 7 April, and repeated on 24 May at Norwich Castle Museum.
Filed under: Conservation, Norwich shroud


text:
Five things: Only two of which even tangentially connect to the Flames
Ryan Lambert
July 25 2012 03:26PM
1. Now things are moving
Shea Weber? Locked up. Rick Nash? Finally traded. Shane Doan? Came out and set a deadline for the Coyotes to figure everything out or else he's gone.
The logjam that existed when I wrote about the stagnant trade market last week is now no longer an issue, and one suspects that will get everyone up off their asses and onto the phones, as teams now seek frantically offload some of their unwanted contracts before someone else starts giving out offer sheets or trading largely inconsequential pieces for regular 30-goal scorers. We now have about two or three premier free agents left on the market, one of whom no one will sign because he's Alex Semin. The second Doan signs with the Flyers or the Rangers, pretty much every team will be more or less set with their rosters as far as major free agent transactions are concerned.
Thus, all that stuff about the Flames not being able make moves because no one is interested in doing at this time so should be out the window. And it's then that we'll see just how committed Jay Feaster is to keeping the roster as is, which he's said he's comfortable with.
Given what Nash fetched, or rather, failed to fetch, one supposes that the trade market is more profitable for buyers rather than sellers these days, and given the number of teams looking for defensive help, can a Jay Bouwmeester bidding war be especially far away?
And okay yes, this is all harping on Bouwmeester, but the reason he's been talked up is that he's the one big-ticket contract on the Flames besides Miikka Kiprusoff, Mark Giordano, and Jarome Iginla, who are under lock and key, that wasn't a Feaster acquisition. Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler, Cervenka, Wideman. All Feaster guys.
And okay yes, there's also Anton Babchuk and Matt Stajan, but it's important to be realistic about people wanting these contracts. No one wants these contracts and for very good reasons: They — both the players and the deals — pretty much stink.
At least Bouwmeester has demonstrable value. There's a lot of talk from teams around the league about how "we won't trade our guy unless someone really bowls us over." But if the Flames don't get rid of him given an even good offer, they're making a huge mistake. If that's what Rick Nash pulls, home-run deals aren't going to happen. Get used to it.
2. Okay here's something about that Doan deadline
As mentioned above, Doan came out and said earlier this week that the Coyotes have until Friday to get their ownership situation sorted out at least to the point where he could receive assurances about their viability in the desert.
Hope he wasn't holding his breath.
I do believe that Doan wanted to stay with the only franchise he's ever played for earlier, and he's right that, at some point, enough has to be enough. He's been taking meetings with interested teams for a while now and it's hard to imagine at least one didn't knock his socks off with an offer that's for too many years, too much money and, most realistically, both.
But on the other hand, going from, "I want to see how this vote plays out on July 8," to, "If you don't have this sinking ship back up to full speed by Friday, I'm gone," seems a bit much, no? It's like the drill sergeant in a bad military movie who messes up your perfectly-made bed right in front of you, then screams at you to make your bed like he told you.
Now that Doan has seen what's out there, I can't imagine a return to the desert, regardless of the Jamison bid's future — because let's be honest, how many of these things have we seen already — will be the best possible idea for him as he seeks his cash-out contract.
You can't blame the guy for wanting out, but the way he wants out sure is crummy.
3. Poor Tim Erixon
4. Some quick thoughts on Rick Nash
I theory, I like the idea of the Rangers going out and getting Rick Nash. They gave up relatively little for a guy who could be a dominant top-line winger alongside a great playmaker like Brad Richards and another goalscoring threat like Marian Gaborik. That top power play unit could be terrifying. It also fleshes out the Rangers' one true weakeness last season: A mediocre top-six.
(Yeah, Nash is on a really bad contract but the Rangers are basically a plaything for a terribly rich man who can afford to bury tens of millions of dollars' worth of bad deals in the minor leagues because, well, who cares? If it comes to it, Rick Nash could finish out his Rangers career riding the bus for all anyone cares.)
And with Nash, the Rangers instantly become a team with more credibility than they already had and, given that they already won that division last season, don't seem less likely to do so again given that every other team in the division is now worse (Flyers, Devils) or in stasis (Penguins, Islanders). This feels very much like an arms race against no one in particular, which, I suppose, is a good way to improve an already very successful team.
I know it's kind of rote to say the Rangers are favorites in the East and will likely compete for the Stanley Cup next June, but, well, look at them. Good team, money to spend, just went out and got a great wing. I don't know how Glen Sather does it.
5. Don't cry for me, Shea Weber
I love love love that Shea Weber is now crying poor because the Predators may or may not give him the no-trade clause the Flyers were going to. Boo hoo it really sucks having $110 million dollars. This is the worst day.
Hey Shea, if you wanted all that money and to get locked in with Philly for the next decade and a half, maybe you should have just demanded a trade instead of signing an offer sheet. The Flyers (and a few other teams) apparently thought a trade was possible before Paul Holmgren said "screw it" and just slid him the offer sheet instead. I don't recall hearing anything about a trade demand, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I get it from his end: He wanted a big deal before the CBA expired so he could maximize his earnings. He wanted to go to a city that he knew would spend big money and be a premier free agent destination for the remainder of his career. He wanted assurances that he wouldn't be traded from there, as Holmgren is wont to do with all long-term signees not named Dany Briere.
But it's like, hey buddy, you just tried to screw the team you're now tied to for the next 14 seasons. Why do you think they should owe you something beyond what the CBA mandates they do? If it makes you feel any better, you can use part of the $27 million you'll receive by next July 1 to get plastic surgery that renders you unable to either cry or pout.
Yeah, big quality centres are a dime a dozen, I think we should be able to get 2 of them for JBO. What were we thinking.
*Bangs Head on Table*
Sigh... if Bouwmeester "has demonstrable value" why is it a mistake to not trade him for just a "good" return? Geez, Is there anyone available on the free agent market that can replace what he can do? If yes, teams will sign him instead of trade for Bouwmeester, If no, then why would we want to trade him?
The blueliners likely to be up with the team are currently: Bouwmeester, Giordano, Wideman, Butler, Brodie, Sarich, Smith... that's a pretty good (not great) collection of defensemen. Subtract Bouwmeester from that group and it goes from pretty good to pretty crappy in an instant.
It would be a huge mistake to trade Bouwmeester for anything short of a deal that knocks your socks off.
no one under 6'2 was ever good at hockey!!!
hey, you know what? david moss is like 6'3 and 225. he's hurt all the time. why is size the determining factor on a player?
July 25 2012, 03:59PM
1. I could see the Isles maybe biting on Stajan.
2. Agreed. Doan goes elsewhere. He's been a good soldier but time to get some financial & hockey security. He deserves it. Might as well cash out.
3. I hope other young prospects are watching & seeing what happened with Timmy. The "me" generation think they are owed the world at such young ages. When you have proved nothing, you are owed nothing.
4. Rangers will be scary, especially if they use that cap space to get either Doan or Semin, or trade for more defense.
5. Love your take.
@JF - given we're not doing a blow-up rebuild, agreed. Staying competitive for 9th/10th place is a pipe dream if they move JBo.
Why the hell would Nashville give any sort of NTC to Weber, if I was Nashville I'd give him 5 team MAX NTC as a token appreaciation.
But lets see how well giving a player a huge contract and a full NTC has worked for Columbus and Nash, Ottawa and Heatley, Toronto and Sundin, Calgary and their entire Roster. There are some other higher profile examples I'm missing here.
But you know next year that he's probably gonna ask for a trade again, why the hell would Nashville limit the amount of teams he's going to be traded to. If you give him one, give him a NTC that kicks in after the first 7-8 years deal.
Maybe the appetite for Jay-Bo really isn't there. After Suter signed, I figured teams like Detroit and Philly and others would have come to Feaster to get Jay-Bo.
However, with Holland and Holmgren going public they are happy with their d going forward maybe Jay-Bo isn't the guy they want.
Sure his cap hit is high at $6.7 million but he's only got two years left. He is durable being the NHL ironman and plays a lot of minutes.
Maybe what other teams are offering is not good enough for Feaster or Feaster's asking price is too high. He's probably trying to get a team to take one of Babchuck or Stajan as part of a package deal.
I wasn't under my account when I posted earlier so I can't edit my comment(#4), but add Regehr to that list.
Also add Loungo.
Jay Bouwmeester was -21 last season the next closest defender was Chris Butler at -9. He plays a lot of minutes but with the addition of Wideman and improved play of Brodie, Smith, Butler it makes him expendable if the right offer comes along.
Its funny everyone is knocking Wideman's defensive play because of the past couple of season playing on Washington (-1) and Florida (-26) really killed his +/-, both of those teams had no clue how to play defence. When he was with Boston though (Defensive team) he was +26 in 3 1/2 seasons.
July 25 2012, 05:32PM
"I love love love that Shea Weber is now crying poor because the Predators may or may not give him the no-trade clause the Flyers were going to. Boo hoo it really sucks having $110 million dollars. This is the worst day."
This is my favourite set of words so far this week.
... people knock Wideman's defensive play because he's... shall we say, interesting in the defensive zone. He really isn't all that good. He isn't bad (like Babchuk) but he's certainly below average for a top 4 dman. His offensive contributions, especially on the powerplay, offset that to some extent, however.
also, +/- is almost certainly the most useless stat in existence, so using it as an indictment on Bouwmeester is really not the best argument you can make. Jeff Schultz once led the league in +/-. Jeff Schultz. Relatively recently, Toni Lydman was in the top 3. Christian Ehrhoff was once a +36. does that mean he's good defensively? Nope, because he's not.
I wouldn't be surprised in a couple of seasons Wideman will be the new "Whipping Boy" for the majority of Flames fans just like JBO and Stajan are now.
Just think were would the Flames be if they actually had a good scouting department back in 2003. Ramholt whatever happened to him? In regards to the Nash trade the CBJ, for season after season they drafted high and could never find the right players to compliment him. Whether it was a bad or good trade, the trading of Nash was inevitable because of poor drafting and development from within. For the most part, CBJ have played in a very tough and highly competitive division against teams with a far more superior lineups with talent than they have had.
JBo + Wahl for Paul Stastny. Do it Feaster.
Bouwmeester and Stastny make the exact same amount. Calgary gets a really good center, potential #1, to play with Iginla and doesn't add to the payroll, monetary or time-wise.
Colorado gets someone to line up next to Erik Johnson or they might potentially have 2 very good top D pairings. Duchene and O'Reilly can duke it out for 1-2 Cs, Mitchell and Olver can bring up the rear.
Sounds like a plan to me. We know JBo doesn't ever hit, so leveling him a couple times a game, 6 games a year, would be good for him and us.
July 25 2012, 10:13PM
Feaster...all I want for Christmas is JBo to stay on our team.
oh...and a fire under #12's butt!
Yes, if they were doing a tank job rebuild then trading JBo for just a good return is fine... but that would make everything Feaster has done this offseason stupid... you don't sign Wideman, Stemps, and Hudler if your doing that because it's just a waste. We're not doing a tank job rebuild so constantly harping on the team to do something that only makes sense if one is happening (even though it by extension it makes several other moves pointless) is just a waste of time.
@Fireonice: Totally agree that a Statsny for JBO is a perfect fit for both teams. Our D would scare the pee out of me but our centre position would look a hell of a lot better. I think Statsny needs a change of scenery as well & could do very well under Hartley.
July 26 2012, 08:20AM
I'm still choked we didn't chase after Peter Mueller harder. Sigh.
I think Feaster is waiting for reality to sink in for a few GMs, Holland and Holmgren in particular, as the gaping holes on their blue lines (Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart + Pronger/Carle) start to fester.
From Deroit I'd look for a pair of youngsters, like Smith-D and Tatar-C, and from Philly I'd pull out the stops to get either Couturier or B Schenn as the centerpiece of the return.
July 26 2012, 08:28AM
Ugh, double post. Need more coffee.
I like the idea of moving for Stastny. But a thought occurs... The Flames already have too many forwards, and adding one more... plus, the defense looks pretty bad without JBo.
on the other side, the Avs are banking on all of Parenteau, Downie, and Jones to be top 6 forwards, and have a decent enough d corps to afford losing one player if they're getting an upgrade back. I propose:
Bouwmeester + Winger (Glencross or Cammalleri, in spite of the price, are most likely) + maybe a B prospect or a minor league contract
Stastny + Defenseman (Wilson is most likley, though Hejda is a possiblity if salary is an issue)
July 26 2012, 09:14AM
Trade for Stastny? Just what the team needs, another small centre. Wow. Glad you guys aren't running the show, tangentially speaking.
@I'm Just Sayin'
in what universe is Stastny small? He's average sized, like Backlund.
besides, who cares? He's had a couple down years, sure, but he's in his prime, he's got good 2way ability, and he has skill. Getting Stastny is, in no way, a bad move. The question is whether he's worth giving up Bouwmeester, not whether he's worth getting in the first place.
@Justin Azevedo
Good point! I see this is one of your pet peeves as well.
Height would matter a lot if the nets were ten feet off the ground like in basketball, or even if the puck was often passed in the air like in lacrosse. But that's not hockey. Similarly weight would matter a lot more if tackling were allowed like in football or rugby, but it isn't. Hockey requires skill and speed so much more than size, and that's part of what makes it so interesting to watch.
Getting back on topic:
2. I really can't fault Doan at all for the way he's handled himself. You have to remember that this ownership saga has been his life for a couple of years now, so the only thing that surprises me is that he's put up with the uncertainty and the waiting games for as long as he has.
4. As good as they look on paper right now, I can't get behind a NY team loaded up with mercenaries cherry-picked from the smaller market teams who helped developed them. Not that I blame Sather for taking full advantage of Howson's position/incompetence, but I honestly think I'd pull for their opponent in a playoff series regardless of who the Blueshirts were playing. Heck, I think I'd even rather see Shelbyville win another cup. (Well, maybe that's overstating it a bit... but at least their long-suffering fans have had to endure half a decade of futility in order to stock up on marquee players.)
Looks like the player nobody wants just sign an one year deal for a cool $7M with the Hurricanes.
7 million bucks for Semin?!?!? Holy bonkers. That is a load of money. At least it's only 1 year
no one under 6'2 was ever good at hockey!!!
hey, you know what? david moss is like 6'3 and 225. he's hurt all the time. why is size the determining factor on a player?
It has to be athleticism/agility. A big forward that skates and moves poorly isn't scary at all, but Malkin, Eric Staal and Jordan Staal would intimidate any dman.
Part of Dinosaur Sutter's thinking was accurate in that you can't teach size, he just didn't consider other important parts of the equation.
Jankowski has hands and vision and the gift of size. If he can bring it all together he'll be a great Centre.
July 26 2012, 02:22PM
"We now have about two or three premier free agents left on the market, one of whom no one will sign because he's Alex Semin."
Signed a 1 year $7 million contract with Carolina......
Poor deal for Nash? Maybe, Maybe not.....depends on what you base it on
Cap Hit comparables for Nash, Stamkos and Parise. If that is the rational, good deal for the Rangers.
Stat comparables for Nash (4 years removed from 40 goal season), are Pasqual Dupuis and Justin Williams. Stats are comparable for last 2 years. Good geal for Columbus.
Intangible argument? irrelevant. Poor team held stats down? Williams played on 3rd line most of the season. Will do better with better players....possible,how much better was Gaborik with Richards, since that was the argument last year.
As far as Bouwmeester. For the money he costs what does he bring to any team? Is he a shutdown guy? Nope. Is he an offensive dynamo? Nope. Is he a physical force that keeps other players honest? Nope. Bouwmeester is the safest Hockey player in the world. He wont hurt you. He wont help you. He just is.....
@Old Soldier
"Is he a shutdown guy?"
I guess some people don't consider JBo as a shutdown guy because he was minus whatever the number last season. In JBo's defence, most worked as a shutdown pair whose partner is significantly better than a number 5 or 6 d-man. Just saying....
July 26 2012, 06:27PM
@I'm Just Sayin'
in what universe is Stastny small? He's average sized, like Backlund.
besides, who cares? He's had a couple down years, sure, but he's in his prime, he's got good 2way ability, and he has skill. Getting Stastny is, in no way, a bad move. The question is whether he's worth giving up Bouwmeester, not whether he's worth getting in the first place.
The universe of the NHL. Did you miss the finals this year? Are you his Dad? If so, I have to say I was a big fan and can I have your autograph?
@I'm Just Sayin'
you make no sense. Stastny is EXACTLY average height for an NHL center. exactly.
besides, he's bigger than both Cammalleri and Cervenka, so what's your problem? Or do you want the Flames to trade for Dustin Brown? I'd be very interested to know just how you intend to pull that off.
July 26 2012, 07:15PM
Jeff Carter 6'4" 199 Anze Kopitar 6'3" 225 Jarret Stoll 6'1" 213 I make no sense? You have wee man syndrome me thinks.
Stastny, unfortunately does not play like his Dad or Uncles i.e. no grit, which would compensate for his lack of size and strength. I can't comment on Roman, but at least Michael plays with some sand in his jock strap.
If the team is bent on trading Jay, then they need at least 2 pieces to fill top 3 and/or top 2 in return.
Stastny is not a number one, by anybody's definition (except maybe yours), if he was, do you think they would trade him inside the division? WTFU.
"people knock Wideman's defensive play because he's...."
You sound just like the Kool-Aid Drinkers at TSN and the Hockey News so certain of nothing. I personally comment on what I've seen. If Wideman went to any other team it would have been how great a pick up it was, but for whatever reason they all think we should tank for a decade to get a couple unproven first overall picks like Edmonton. They thought the same of Ottawa last year... They were supposed to finish dead last... They did not. The reason Edmonton tanked is because no Free Agent wanted to go there... Dany Heatley ring a bell?
Having watched Wideman in Boston's run in '09 (+32 that year) and with Washington last season he never once glaringly stood out for me, just don't see what your talking about. John Carlson (-15) definitely did and the whole playoffs, yet TSN continued to sing his defensive praise. Haha.
"also, +/- is almost certainly the most useless stat in existence....."
The Flames drafted Brett Kulak as would any team who selected him, solely on his +/- and upside. In terms of defenseman any scout I have ever talked to mentions a prospects situational +/- second if not first when assessing them. The odd time its irrelevant when a player is leaving the ice or what have you but 9 times out of 10 it is a direct indication. Completely disagree with it being a useless stat, so does every scout I've ever talked to.
Jeff Schultz is +83 for his career and only once in six season has he ever finished in the negatives (Last season -2). Christian Ehrhoffs departure from Vancouver was a major reason why Vancouver went from a Stanley Cup finalist to being eliminated in the first round. Kevin Bieksa +/- after his departure dropped 20 points. Toni Lydman has been a plus player every year outside of those spent in Calgary in our horrendous "young guns era".
"His (Wideman) offensive contributions, especially on the powerplay, offset that to some extent.."
Wideman is a Top 10 offensive defenseman in the league.
Look at his Point Totals the last five season: '12 (46 Pts), '11 (40 Pts), '10 (30 Pts), '09 (50 Pts), '08 (36 Pts) Ryan Suters Last Five years: '12 (46 Pts), '11 (39 Pts), '10 (37 Pts), '09 (45 Pts), '08 (31 Pts)
Suter is making $7.5 Mil, yet Wideman is only making $5.25 but according to THN he is the worst signing of the off season. Haha. Not to mention second assist machine Matt Carle signed for $5.5 Wideman had 7 more goals than him last year.
Other Defenders Wideman finished ahead of in points last season: Dion Phaneuf, Drew Doughty, Mike Green (last two years Wideman has 55 more points), James Wisniewski $5.5 Million, Brent Seabrook, Ducan Keith, Kris Letang, Brent Burns, Keith Yandle, Kevin Bieksa, P.K. Subban, Tomas Kaberle.
Our Top.3 Defenders: Dennis Wideman , Mark Giordano, Jay Bouwmeester could easily have 110+ Points that is as productive a Blue line as any. Just don't see how we are going finish in 10-14 like all the "experts" are predicting.
Wisniewski was probably the worst signing of all time.
I don't, and never did, agree with THN that Wideman was the worst, or even a bad signing. His contract was too much for too long, but it wasn't horrible, and he fills 3 needs of the Flames' that I can think of (offense from the blueline, RHS dman, top 4 dman). just don't expect him to be as good defensively as he is offensively.
@ Baalzamon: I think based on the numbers it will be a wait & see how Wideman does. We desperately needed a 3-4 RHS dman, thats what we got & as a UFA you have to overpay in $$$ but remember, you gave up zero assets to acquire. The whining will start after year 3 of his deal. Whatever, every team gets stuck with these kind of contracts, nature of the beast.
@ Mcrib: Reason why the experts are projecting 10-14 is because of what we got down the middle(centres). Personally, I think if we trade JBO we have to have to get a good centre back, so a deal like Backlund & Jbo for Schenn or Courture from Philly would rock & I doubt Philly does that, maybe. Thats why Statsny is a very realistic target centre & he would be a huge upgrade from what we will be starting with as of right now. Our only hope if Feaster does nothing else is hope both Backlund has a huge rebound year & Cerevenka is the real deal or we have a lockout & then we'll be tied for 1st overall by the end of October:)