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Robin Brownlee
June 07 2012 08:03AM
Nail Yakupov was in town Monday. Mikhail Grigorenko arrived last night. Ryan Murray will be here Friday. There's been no sign of Alex Galchenyuk in the City of Champions so far and there are no plans by the Edmonton Oilers to show him around Rexall Place or have him meet owner Daryl Katz.
Add to that the Oilers have already had GM Steve Tambellini meet with Swede Filip Forsberg in Europe and that they've talked, and might again, with Griffin Reinhart of the Edmonton Oil Kings, and a reasonable person might conclude Galchenyuk isn't in the mix of the four or five players the Oilers are considering with the first overall pick in Pittsburgh.
As Jim Matheson wrote Monday in the Edmonton Journal: "The only question I have is this: what about Yakupov's Sarnia Sting linemate Alex Galchenyuk, another big Russian centre who ripped up his knee this year, but has terrific ability. Is he not in MacGregor's top 5? Is he not coming to town?"
A fair question to be sure, but not inviting Galchenyuk to Edmonton for a tour of the dressing room and an audience with Katz doesn't mean the Oilers aren't interested. It's quite the opposite, actually. It turns out the Oilers have already done a fair amount of due diligence on Galchenyuk – they've had more than one sit-down discussion with him already.
Galchenyuk missed all but two games last season with a knee injury after finishing second among OHL rookies in 2010-11 with 83 points. It's difficult to get a read on the development of a player after an abbreviated season like this one, but a lot of hockey people out there are of the mind he'd have pushed Yakupov atop player rankings, had he been healthy.
Even with a season that was essentially lost, talk is a lot of teams have the Wisconsin-born Galchenyuk rated in or near the top five picks in this draft class. The Oilers are one of those teams, even if he won't get a tour of the town like Yakupov, Grigorenko and Murray.
"I don't think there should be any conclusions to anything because people don't know what's already been done and who has been met with," chief scout Stu MacGregor said. "We've done extensive interviewing with Galchenyuk.
"A lot of times you're doing this to get another look because you're interested in something. When you're already satisfied with what you think you have, it doesn't have to be a visual thing all the time."
Brad Davis, Kent Hawley and Bob Brown of MacGregor's scouting staff have interviewed Galchenyuk on separate occasions. Hawley is good friends with Galchenyuk's dad, Alex. They spent two seasons playing together with the Madison Monsters in the minors in the 1990s.
"We feel very comfortable with what we have with Alex Galchenyuk. We're good with him," MacGregor said. "Bob Brown does a ton of interviews for us. He's experienced. He's been around. He knows the development game.
"Like, why bring Forsberg over here? Steve was there (Europe). He could go meet him. It was easy. It's comfortable. It's better for the player."
Bottom line is the Oilers don't have to, and won't, bring Galchenyuk in to Edmonton for a grip-and-grin. That doesn't mean they aren't eye-balling him as a candidate for that No. 1 pick. They are.
As an aside, Galchenyuk pretty much blew concerns about his knee right out of the water in fitness testing at the NHL combine in Toronto a week ago. He topped every prospect in the peak power output test on the bike. That story is here.
Listen to Robin Brownlee Wednesdays and Thursdays from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. on the Jason Gregor Show on TEAM 1260.
Nail is the undisputed #1.
I think it was their coach who said that Yakupov and Galchenyuk are the hardest working junior player's he's seen, and that they were constantly pushing each other.
I believe that Nail was also quoted as saying that Galchenyuk is the most talented player on Sarnia.
Couldn't agree more.
"Nail along with Alex Galchenyuk are two of the hardest working players off the ice I have seen in my 12 years with the Sting. He is constantly working on his game be it on the ice or in the gym constantly wanting to get better. In the dressing room he is a true character. Easily one of the more popular players among his teammates. He has two distinct sides to him. When it comes to hockey he is all business but outside of the game he is one of the more engaging personalities I have come across in my time in junior hockey." - Mark Glavin (Assistant GM of the Sarnia Sting)
I've been a fan of Galchenyuk since he played midget hockey here in Chicago.
Nail is BPA, so he'd be picked ahead of Galchenyuk.
But he doesn't project well as a center in the NHL, he's more of a flashy LW, and we have a few of those already.
Grigorenko is the top NHL-caliber center in this draft, and that's why he gets a visit. If he drops and the Oilers can swing a deal for Carolina's pick, I'd love to see him as our #2 center.
I love the idea of the Oilers picking up another high end center. I'd be pretty shocked it they do pick Galchenyuk though. I bet he becomes a standout.
Robin, thanks for the link to the fitness results.
June 07 2012, 08:44AM
Yak will probably be the man but passing on skilled big centers will not be easy.
Yakupov a lock for first . What we do after that pick is what's intriguing , and that appears to be moving up and getting a second first round pick that is likely to be a defenceman . Possibly one or more two second round picks (via Penner if Kings win Stanley-pick 60 ) and a roster pick could procur another top 10 pick . Tambellini hinted at going for need after the first pick as i recall from recent interviews . Will we target Montreal ,or possibly a trade for Subban? I'd like to see us move up and get Truoba or Dumba .
Keep in mind next years draft that could be far better than this years . Staying young , it is unlikely we will finish much better than 11th- 12th in West next season . That would mean beating out Columbus , Minnesota . Out East we might beat out Montreal so far . Say we luck out and finish 24th overall . That in my mind is still another terrible/futile season . Thats not progress in my eyes ,that's continued futility ! Playoffs for our team is still just a dream - the nightmare continues into next season .
June 07 2012, 09:36AM
I think the oilers would be crazy to pick Grigorenko over Galchenyuk.
They both have elite skills and are big centers. Grigorenko has constantly had his character and heart questioned. You build a team around heart and character. Even if Gal had slightly less skill, which I do not believe is the case, he is a guy that does not take nights off. That is a problem the oilers have with many of their vets right now. Why look at someone who brings more poor effort to the rink?
Many scouts have said they thought Gal would be ahead or in a tight race with Yak had he played this year. His Knee is back healthy and is obviously strong if his peak power with it is higher than anyone else tested. Missing the yeay of development may very well slowed his development and because of it he may need another year before moving to the NHL. long term he would look awful good on our second line.
I would love to see the Oil trade down inside the top 5 getting another asset and taking him. I think he will have more impact anywhere he goes than Yak as he is bigger, stronger, plays centre, and has a similar skill level.
This would make Gagner expendable and he could bring back more good assets. People have been talking about trading Gagner for a long time. I agree that if he is playing with small soft wingers we should have a bigger centreman, but unless that bigger centreman is coming back the other way we need Gagner. I don't think anyone wants to see Horcoff promoted back to a scoring role on our second line, but he is the next best centre we have after Gagner.
Nice to hear about a player who I thought had fallen out of favor for some reason, with the Oilers.
I'm wondering if there is a deal in the works to get both players? Reading that both of these players have natural chemistry on and off the ice suggests a pairing that needs to play together.
I wonder if Tamby has even thought of the possibility of acquiring both players?
"I wonder if Tamby has even thought of the possibility of acquiring both players?"
The thought may have crossed his mind, like so many others. Thinking and acting are two different things with regard to Tambellini. A 30th, 30th and 29th finish would indicate he acts very s l o w l y.
June 07 2012, 10:34AM
It's great to see the Oilers are really interested in Galchenyuk. It's not as much of a reach taking Alex in the No.1 spot as it would be taking Murray in that same spot. If Edmonton is fortunate enough to land both, Nail could remain here if there's hockey next season and Alex may benifit from one more year in Sarnia.
This is another great opportunity to sell/move out some of the often underperforming veterans. Probably the best of the 3 opportunities compared to the 2010 and the 2011 entry draft.
Sell the farm and get both.
The Oilers are not going to pick a defensman with the number 1 overall pick. Tambellini has said he has a roster need for a defensman, but not an organizational one. That means drafting another defensive prospect that doesn't help us out right away is not going to happen. Murray isn't even a Hedburg caliber player and Hedburg didn't even step into the NHL on the top 2 pairing, nor do I think he's even there now.
Moreover, Kevin Lowe has said it will be pretty difficult for the Oilers to not take the BPA. The only way is if they get an offer they can't refuse, which to me sounds like something from Brian Burke. Names like Luke Schenn are being thrown around, but to be honest, his numbers are not that good and I don't see how he makes us better than what Gregorenko, Galcheniuk, or Yakapov would bring to the city.
There's Taylor Hall and then... The Oilers only have one. They're deeper on the RW with skilled players like Eberle, Hemsky, and then Omark in the AHL. The left side features two way role players with Smyth, Hartikainen, Jones, Petrell. Despite what everyone is saying about needing another centre the Oilers also need another true top 6 winger to round out the top lines. It just isn't their most pressing need.
June 07 2012, 11:22AM
Well….in all seriousness. What exactly would it take to land Galchenyuk? I just can't see him getting past # 3 or #5
I see it as an overpayment to get that pick; what would the Oilers need to give up to get into the top 5? I personally think it would be like having Hall and Seguin. Yakupov & Galchenyuk would give us an amazing 2nd scoring line!
It's a deal that has to be made! If Tambellini want's to continue to be a GM he's going to have to make some kind of a move to crawl out of this hole.
I've been a fan of Galchenyuk since he played midget hockey here in Chicago.
Nail is BPA, so he'd be picked ahead of Galchenyuk.
But he doesn't project well as a center in the NHL, he's more of a flashy LW, and we have a few of those already.
Grigorenko is the top NHL-caliber center in this draft, and that's why he gets a visit. If he drops and the Oilers can swing a deal for Carolina's pick, I'd love to see him as our #2 center.
Exactly but I think Big Brig is going to have to fall to about 7-8-9 range before the Oil can make something happen to get him.
I know I'm not an NHL GM nor am I as uknowledgeable on prospects as the scouts and many nerds around here BUT I would personally lean towards drafting Galy. I really like what I hear about him:
- Centre - Big - Highly skilled - great personality (this one is huge for me) - N.A. born - completely recovered from injury - explosive speed - complete player - great vision and hands - Pro hockey pedigree - likely would have challenged for #1 rank if not injured
Sure it would be a risk and it's not my job on the line but he just sounds like a better fit and, frankly, a better prospect than Yak.
Yakupov and Galenychuk to the same team is very unlikely. Getting a top 5 pick requires significant assets. We can't get that without giving up one of Hall/Eberle/Nuge.
So bascially forget it. Besides, I think you would have to get #2 from CBJ to make it happen. I suspect they are going to pick Galenychuk after we take Yakupov.
June 07 2012, 02:34PM
"As Jim Matheson wrote Monday in the Edmonton Journal: 'The only question I have is this: what about Yakupov's Sarnia Sting linemate Alex Galchenyuk, another big Russian centre who ripped up his knee this year, but has terrific ability. Is he not in MacGregor's top 5? Is he not coming to town?'"
Matheson, like most of the media coverage I have heard, ignores the fact that Galchenyuk was born in Milwaukee, played his junior hockey in the US, and never - as far as I can tell - played for Russia internationally. It's kind of like referring to Brett Hull as a Canadian winger... Not all that important, but it bugs me for some reason.
Reverse psychology! Take Yakupov 1st overall, watch Galchenyuk slide, then make a deal with the Leafs sending a couple of roster players and taking back Komisarek's salary to free the Leafs from salary cap hell and the 5th overall pick. Then pick up Galchenyuk.
This reminds me of Kane/Gagner and Crosby/Pouliot. Does the center look better than he is because of who he was playing with? We already know that Yak can still shine without Galchenyuk because that's what he did this year. We therefore know that Yak can perform with or without Galchenyuk. We know that Galchenyuk looks good with Yak but how is he going to play without him?
Hemsky and GAgner, + a prospect to Columbus for their 2nd over all pick. OIlers Pick Yakapov, and Gaylenchuck. Thats how it can be done.
June 07 2012, 04:46PM
@Oiler Al
Right. Because you'd trade the #2 overall for an aging, oft-injured skill player, an undersized skill center who is a perennial 40 pt producer who can't win draws, and a prospect.
Why not trade the #1 overall to SJ for havlat, pavelski and a prospect?
Unless the prospect is RNH, that trade ain't happening.
Edit: I actually like Gagner, so please don't spend time defending him to me. Just trying to prove a point.
June 07 2012, 04:57PM
Unless you can get the Hurricanes interested in Hemsky and possible Paajarvi for the 8th, then anything is possible from there.
Heck maybe Grigorenko is there at 8 much like Couturier was last year.
From the 8th spot you can make a push or option to stay and pick a defensemen.
Fact: Tambellini needs to make something happen sooner then later, his days of assessing then re-assessing are long gone. He has one last shot to get onto the playoffs or damn close to the playoffs or he's done.
Does a new coach and one new player get you in, I'm guessing he's going to have to make a serious move.
Robin - What do you mean they still may have him as a candidate for the #1 pick? Stu MacGregor said in an interview just a couple days ago that Yakupov, Murray, Grigorenko, Forsberg, and Reinhart were the guys they were considering, leaving Galchenyuk out. Did he clarify this to you and say he missed him or something?
Yes, he is a heck of a prospect, could even turn out to be the best long-term pro in the bunch, but just because he has recovered from his knee surgery doesn't mean he is anywhere near as likely a prospect for greatness as Yakupov. This is an article for the websites devoted to the teams who pick AFTER the Oilers. It would still be a gamble to pick Gal second or third but it might be worth taking as only Yak has superstar ability. Why would the MB not include him in his list of possibles if they were considering him as their top pick? You don't have to play games when you pick first. There is an outside chance they might be considering trading up if he gets through the top five but I doubt they would be willing to give up what they would have to. It is Yak or Murray going first. No one else is being seriously considered.
puzar99, please dont put murray`s name in there with yak`s, it`s not even close, it`s yak & yak only, end of discussion
@Robin Brownlee
Or he is done posting from that ip address*
June 08 2012, 12:49AM
I've read all the comments on Burke trying to acquire both, Yakupov and Galy. Just wanted to point out that it would be much easier for the Oilers to acquire both of these players than the Leafs.
After listening to the interview again, I think I'll disagree with you on this one. They ask him how many he's down to for the top pick, he says 4 or 5. They list the obvious ones in the guys they brought to town in Yak, Murray, and Grigorenko. And then MacGregor voluntarily mentions Forsberg and Reinhart when prompted to fill out the 4 or 5. He could have mentioned Galchenyuk with the last two guys but he didn't.
Hey, those scouts you mentioned interviewed Yakupov too...after all, they play for the same team, watch one guy, you're watching the other. They interviewed both guys at the combine. Then they bring one guy to Edmonton, and leave the other home. Loud and clear to me. Ya, they're 'satisified with him', 'they're good with him', as the guy who won't be their guy come June 22. Just reading between the lines.
Hey Robin....I signed up today to ask about Galchenyuk. I really like this guy over Nail as he is a big centermen that I think could be an upgrade to Gagner in a year or so. I also am concerned with Yakupov's concussion history as well as where he would play? If he can't move over to the opposite wing, where does he fit?
P.S. Hows the Biz running?


text:
Ulster have named an almost full-strength XV for their clash with Connacht at Ravenhill, with Stephen Ferris and Rory Best both starting.
Ulster have announced an almost full-strength team for their PRO12 clash with Connacht at Ravenhill, with Rory Best and Stephen Ferris both starting.
Coach Mark Anscombe has made five changes to the starting team for what promises to be an emotional occasion as it will mark Ulster's first home game since the passing of Nevin Spence.
Ireland hooker Best has returned to fitness and will play for his province for the first time since the Heineken Cup final in May. Declan Fitzpatrick, Johann Muller (captain), Ferris and Paddy Wallace are all called into the starting XV.
Fitzpatrick and Best are joined in the front-row by Tom Court, with Muller back to partner Dan Tuohy at lock. Ferris will play alongside Chris Henry and Nick Williams in an impressive looking back-row.
Centre Michael Allen has been ruled out after suffering an ankle injury in the process of scoring against Cardiff at the weekend. Darren Cave will move to outside centre in his place, allowing Paddy Wallace to slot in at inside centre. Paul Marshall and Paddy Jackson will continue their half-back partnership, while the back-three of Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble and Jared Payne is also unchanged.
Meanwhile, Connacht head coach Eric Elwood has made four changes to his starting XV.
Up front, Denis Buckley makes way for Brett Wilkinson as loosehead prop while Ronan Loughney, who last week was called up to the Irish training squad, returns at tighthead.
Elsewhere in the pack, Dave Gannon replaces Eoin McKeon as blindside flanker. Gannon is joined in the back-row by former Ulster flanker Willie Faloon, who will captain Connacht.
There are no changes to the backs with Dan Parks making his second appearance for the province as fly-half. Try scorers from last week Tiernan O'Halloran and Fetu'u Vainikolo start again on the wing while the centre partnership is Eoin Griffin and Dave McSharry.
Form: Ulster top the RaboDirect PRO12 table and still have a game in hand over all their rivals, having won four from four so far to make their best ever start to a campaign. The Ulstermen's only defeat at Ravenhill since last October was to Leinster on 20 April. Connacht achieved their biggest ever victory over Leinster on Friday and are now seeking a third successive victory over their fellow Irish provinces for the first time since 1956. Connacht's only win in this competition over a rival province in their own backyard came against Leinster at Donnybrook on 13 September 2002. Connacht are going for back to back victories over Ulster for the first time since 1997-98, but have not won at Ravenhill since 16 November 1960.
The teams:
Ulster: 15 Jared Payne, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Darren Cave, 12 Paddy Wallace, 11 Andrew Trimble, 10 Paddy Jackson, 9 Paul Marshall, 8 Nick Williams, 7 Chris Henry, 6 Stephen Ferris, 5 Dan Tuohy, 4 Johan Muller (c), 3 Declan Fitzpatrick, 2 Rory Best, 1 Tom Court.
Replacements: 16 Rob Herring, 17 Callum Black, 18 John Afoa, 19 Lewis Stevenson, 20 Mike McComish, 21 Michael Heaney, 22 Luke Marshall, 23 Craig Gilroy.
Connacht: 15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Tiernan O'Halloran, 13 Eoin Griffin, 12 Dave McSharry, 11 Fetu'u Vainikolo, 10 Dan Parks, 9 Kieran Marmion, 8 George Naoupu, 7 Willie Faloon (capt), 6 Dave Gannon, 5 Mike McCarthy, 4 Michael Swift, 3 Ronan Loughney, 2 Adrian Flavin, 1 Brett Wilkinson.
Replacements: 16 Jason Harris-Wright, 17 Denis Buckley, 18 Nathan White, 19 John Muldoon, 20 Johnny O'Connor, 21 Dave Moore, 22 Miah Nikora, 23 Mata Fifita.
Date: Friday, October 5
Kick-off: 19:05 BST
Venue: Ravenhill
Referee: George Clancy (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Eanna O'Dowd (Ireland), Brian Macneice (Ireland)
Television match official: Ken Beggs (Ireland)

subset: commoncrawl


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HELPER - Ernest Larry Madrigal, age 57, passed away Oct. 7, 2003 in Price while surrounded by his family.
Born Sept. 5, 1946 in Standardville, to James Joseph Sr. and Rose Martinez Madrigal. Married Dorothy Kouris in 1968 in Price, later divorced.
Member of the Catholic Church. Lifelong member of Carbon County where he was a firefighter and EMT in the area for many years. Graduate of Carbon High School Class of 1965 where he wrestled and played football. Ernie was very patriotic and he honorably served the U.S. Army with 101st Airborne in Vietnam where he was a Green Beret. He enjoyed socializing with everyone, sports and he especially loved his San Francisco 49ers.
Survived by three daughters and one son, Bernadette (Juan) Madrigal-Zarate, Price; Ernest "JuJu" (Nancy) Madrigal Jr., Crestline, Calif.; Faye Madrigal, Orange County, Calif.; Angel Madrigal, Avondale, Ariz.; two brothers and two sisters, James (Betty) Madrigal, Helper; Linda Mitchell, Jacksonville, Mo.; Rufie (Dianne) Madrigal, Kearns; Teresa Richey, Helper; special friend, Tara Prudence, Price; four aunts and one uncle, Bill (Betty) Madrigal, Price; Amelia (Heinric) Gorlitz, California; Tilly Martinez, Minnie (Alvero) Rojas, Andrea Martinez, all of Helper; special cousin, Martin Martinez, Provo; numerous nieces, nephews and cousins; nine grandchildren, Amanda, C.C., Kris, Chana, Falicia, Apollo, Burl, Mark and Nece. Preceded in death by parents; sister, Veda Madrigal; and grandson, Michael Anthony Chavez.
Funeral Mass was held on Oct. 11, St. Anthony Catholic Church. Vigil service was held Friday evening at the church in Helper. Committal service, Mountain View Cemetery, Helper, under the direction of Mitchell Funeral Home.
PRICE - Our loving daughter, sister, aunt and dear friend, Nancy Mary Martin, age 62, passed away peacefully Oct. 7, 2003 at her home.
She was born July 7, 1941 in Price, to William and Pauline King Powell Martin.
Nancy was a lifelong resident of Carbon County and graduate of Carbon High School Class of 1960. In 1964, she graduated from Brigham Young University with her bachelor's degree. Nancy loved having lunch with her friends and especially caring for her mother. She loved her dogs and will be dearly missed by a community of family and friends.
Survived by mother, Pauline Martin, Price; two brothers and three sisters, William W. (Dorothy) Martin, Margaret (Edward) Ellis, both of Price; Betty (John) Brasher, Spring Glen, Bonnie (Bert) Boren, Ogden; John C. Martin, Beaver Dam, Ariz.; 15 nieces and nephews, 31 great-nieces and great-nephews; and her special companion, Misty Boo. She was preceded in death by father.
Graveside services were held Oct. 11, Price City Cemetery under the direction of Mitchell Funeral Home. In lieu of flowers the family suggests contributions to Primary Children's Hospital.
EMERY-Our beloved Ruth "Jean" Christiansen, 76, passed away with her family at her side Oct. 2, 2003 in Price. She was born Dec. 20, 1926 in Idaho Falls, Idaho to Reno Giles and Leola Madsen Crook. She married Merlin H. Christiansen on Sept. 6, 1946 in the Salt Lake Temple. She was a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints where she has served in many callings including an 18 month mission at Temple Square. She enjoyed crossword puzzles, all types of musical activities, sewing, and will long be remembered for excellence in quilting. She was also a member of the American Legion Auxiliary, the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers and the Emery County Historical Society. Jean was currently working, along with her husband, as director of the Senior Center in Emery.
Survivors include her husband Merlin of Emery, her children Nancy (Tom) Parry of Salt Lake, Rene' (David) Dalley of Springville, Scott (Karelyn) of Layton, Glenys (Lannie) Sitterud, Ken (Earlene) Christiansen both of Emery, Karla (Kerry) Powell of Huntington, Marie (Louis) VanderHerp, Becky (Jed) Allred both of Ferron. She is also survived by 38 grandchildren, 32 great-grandchildren, brothers and sisters: Ray (Ruth) Crook of Levan, Kay (LaRue) Crook of Perry, Kathleen (Robert) Gabbitas of Bakersfield, Calif., Doris Funk of Salt Lake, Truxton (Lottie) Madison of Ephraim, Bessie (Chet) Sams of Idaho, Virginia (Al) Wise of Texas, Nola (Kerry) DeLong of Washington, Madge (Charles) Gall of California, Roger (Nadine) Madison of Arizona, and sister-in-law Adele Madison of Idaho. She was preceded in death by her parents, son John, four brothers and one grandson.
Funeral services were held Oct. 6 at the Emery Ward Chapel. Interment followed in the Emery Cemetery under the direction of Fausett Mortuary.
PRICE - Isabell White Jensen, age 87, passed away Oct. 8, 2003 in Salt Lake City.
She was born Dec. 10, 1015 in Cleveland to Emory and Lucille Cowley White. Married Dean Jensen Feb. 3, 1936 in Cleveland; marriage later solemnized in the Manti LDS Temple. He died Jan. 10, 1971.
Member of the LDS Church and the Daughter's of the Utah Pioneers. Isabell lived her life to the fullest, always giving of herself. Isabell loved being a mom and grandma. She was an avid reader and everyone loved her beautiful hand crocheted lace.
Survived by children, Ned (Karen) Jensen, Sunset; Tom (Becky) Jensen, Glendale, Ariz.; Louann Birch, Price; Vernita (Jay) Brown, Salt Lake City; brothers, Lavar (Beth) White, Blackfoot, Idaho; Ted (Nelda) White, Bountiful; sister, Charlene (Andy) Mortensen, Cleveland; 17 grandchildren, 16 great-grandchildren and one great-great-grandchild. Preceded in death by parents; son-in-law, Bob Birch; and four brothers, Jack, Bill, Frank and Bobby White.
Funeral services were held Oct. 11, Price LDS 11th LDS Ward Chapel. Interment, Price City Cemetery under the direction of Mitchell Funeral Home.
PRICE-Lyle Bryce "Sookie" Bryner, 80, passed away Oct. 9, 2003, from pneumonia and a fight with cancer. His family was at his side. He was born Dec. 11, 1922, in Price to Junius Birch and Mary Ann Bryce Bryner. He married his sweetie, CeCelia Jewkes, Nov. 9, 1950, in the Manti LDS Temple.
Lyle was a lifelong resident of Carbon County and raised his family while living the simple life of a farmer and rancher. After his wife CeCelia passed away in 1999, he found special love again and married Katie Bowles, Sept. 18, 2001.
He was a musician, teaching himself to play the mandolin. He found great joy in sharing his musical talent and brought happiness to countless others. He excelled at sports and earned All State High School honors in basketball and football and he helped lead Carbon High to the '41 State Football Championship Final.
Lyle served in WWII in the US Army, 10th Mountain Division, fighting in the mountains of Italy. His fellow "army buddies" were among his most treasured friends and he stayed in contact with many through regular reunions and correspondence his entire life. Highly patriotic and civic minded, he served on numerous agricultural and water boards and committees for over 50 years.
He enjoyed hunting, fishing and his grandsons and joking around. He was a devoted husband, father and grandfather, and shared his sense of humor with everyone. Lyle only knew two kinds of people; friends and people he hadn't met yet. He was a friend to everyone, no matter their religion, position or the size of their wallet.
Lyle was LDS and his favorite of many callings was Nursing Home Coordinator for Sunday Services, where his friendly and loving personality brought joy to his elderly friends.
Survived by his wife Katie; son Ross (Shauna), and daughter Marie (Dave) Bowles, two brothers Ted and Max; three grandsons and a special niece Jackie Oman, all of Price. Preceded in death by his parents, first wife CeCelia, four brothers and one baby sister.
Funeral services will be held Oct. 14 at 11 a.m. at the Wellington LDS State Center. Viewing Monday evening 7-9 p.m. or Tuesday one hour prior to services at the church. Burial Price City Cemetery under the direction of Fausett Mortuary.


text:
Skip to comments.Rewrite the Second Amendment
Posted on 04/05/2013 4:02:09 PM PDT by Sir Napsalot
(snip) Lost in this confusion and anxiety is the possibility that a basic consensus on guns exists among Americans. Opinion polls suggest that a majority recognize a right to bear arms, subject to reasonable regulations protecting public safety. This strong dual commitment, if clarified and entrenched in our Constitution, could reassure most, though not all, of us.
Before you mock the idea of a constitutional amendment, consider that hardly anyone is happy with our unstable status quo: gun enthusiasts fear their rights are under constant threat; gun-control advocates point to the danger of illegal guns and easy access to firearms.
Most Americans are committed to the Constitution and rely on the courts to adapt our antique highest law to modern technological and cultural developments. Many of us trust the judiciary to balance rights against the inevitable restrictions on them. But we are left with the awkward, irresolvable phrasing of the Second Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
What part of shall not be infringed do you not understand? the gun-rights advocate asks. What part of a well regulated Militia do you not understand? goes the retort.
But in the 1980s, a movement to interpret the amendment as promoting the right to bear arms for self-defense emerged. It reached an apotheosis of sorts in the 2008 case, which struck down the District of Columbias ban on handguns. It was the first time the court had ever restricted gun regulation, but the 5-to-4 vote also suggests that the decision is not fixed doctrine.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
"This constitutional uncertainty should suggest to both sides the possibility of agreeing on a formal clarification of the constitutional text. Zealots will scoff, but many reasonable people would find reassurance in a revised Second Amendment that was properly balanced. Those who propose responsible limits, like background checks, would welcome constitutional support for common-sense safeguards. Those who worry about the slippery slope of encroachments on gun rights would find comfort in an explicit reassertion and reinforcement of the general right to bear arms."
We keep hearing overwhelming Americans support 'common sense' and reasonable measures like universal criminal background check.
Thoughts? Opinions? Can we rewrite the Constitution via Amendments to forever give our freedom away?
The hubris of these uneducated mouth breathers to think they could better the work of Madison, Mason and Jefferson is astounding.
Here is my answer to the commie lib retard who comes back with that. The educated among us know that the Bill of Rights belongs to the people of the United States. The Bill of Rights prevents the government from violating the peoples' God given rights. The Founding Fathers would NOT have wasted their time guaranteeing that the government would always have the right to form a National Guard. That's just moronic stupidity to think that. IMHO.
See? It makes sense no matter HOW you frame it, right? Opinions polls are more important than Constitutional Rights.
You don't "rewrite" any Constitutional amendment, you propose another that acts on it and put your proposal up for a vote in Congress and then a ratification by the states. The difficulty the gun control fanatics have encountered is that every time this issue does go to ballot, they lose.
"Well regulated" at that time meant to be in good working order - as in a "well regulated" clock. Not to have a bunch of laws (regulations). There was no standing army - but all able men were to be able to grab their weapons of war at a moments notice.
" What part of shall not be infringed do you not understand? the gun-rights advocate asks. What part of a well regulated Militia do you not understand? goes the retort."
They wanted the people to be armed to prevent the Govt/ militia from becoming overbearing thus well regulated.
You Sir have it right. That is exactly what "well regulated" meant in the late 18th Century.
(rewritten just a touch)
"Lost in this confusion and anxiety is the possibility that a basic consensus against homosexual marriage exists among Americans. Opinion polls suggest that a majority recognize a right to only heterosexual marriage, subject to reasonable regulations protecting public safety. This strong dual commitment, if clarified and entrenched in our Constitution, could reassure most, though not all, of us."
Sorry, NYT, but two points are missing.
1. Militia was not part of the national army (as is the Reserve and National Guard). The Militia is the citizenry with the capacity to protect the nation in an emergency who are NOT part of the Army, Navy, AirForce, or Marines.
2. Well-regulated meant "equipped" or "provisioned." That's what made "regulars" distinctive from "Militias". That is what is unique about this 2d amendment provision. It's saying that the citizenry must be armed to defend the nation. A Militia with the basic equipment of "regulars". IOW, a right to keep and bear arms for protecting the nation from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
The writer is an idiot and trying to have it both ways parses his opinion.
The Constitution of Mexico and the USofA on the issue of 2A are not even in the same realm.
Mexico's Constitution bars citizens from military grade arms and they are expressly prohibited from carrying them in inhabited places, subject to local law.
The 2A of America states plainly that "the People" have a right and it shall not be infringed upon.
This is the disturbing part of his screed that I couldn't shake:
What part of shall not be infringed do you not understand? the gun-rights advocate asks. What part of a well regulated Militia do you not understand? goes the retort.
My reply:
What part of "The Right of The People" did you purposely gloss over?
yeah... from the miserable wretches in DC and some state capitals!!!
Zachary Elkins is an associate professor of government at the University of Texas, a director of the Comparative Constitutions Project and an author of The Endurance of National Constitutions.
What part of "...shall not be infringed" do YOU NOT understand? Yes it is FIXED doctrine. You fellas better stop pushing. You apparently do NOT understand how much you are upsetting people.
Squawking point parrot head drivel. The Orwellian bleating sheep have NO IDEA what COMMON SENSE means, let alone being able to define it in a debate about the 2nd.
Throw that Useful Idiot a cracker.
Hey Dumbo, Well Regulated referred to "standardization of equipment and training."
The 2nd stands on it's OWN, AS IS! No "common sense, brraaaaawwk" adjustments needed.
Want some "common sense" there dumbo? How about finding out what drugs the psychobabblers have been handing out like free lunch!
Almost ALL mass shooters, going back to the '70s, were on and off psychotropic drugs.
How bout some "COMMON SENSE" control of PSYCHIATRISTS?
These clowns and charlatans get away WITH MURDER, and are largely UNREGULATED. THEY are the cause of much grief in society.
Time to grab the psychobabblers by the hair and bodily throw them in the dock. No "weaseling" out of the interrogation.
I don't think this was a 1980's revelation. It was always there.
There must be 300 gun laws on the books, None of them stopped Obama and Holder from giving guns to mexican cartels, and no one went to jail for it.
Gun owners are not as stupid as politicians thin they are. We know what the end game is.
We know we are all frogs in the boiling waters, and we are trying to jump out, but liberals and crooked politicians keep shoving us back in.
One day they will push too hard and American Patriots will start pushing back.
Is a convenient way that people have of cutting off an argument. Some slopes really are slippery. Look at seat belt laws.
Cars before about 1964 or so didn't even have seat belts - they were an option. Then the government required lap belts. Then shoulder belts. Finally, they passed laws that required seat belt use. Those laws started off as a "secondary enforcement" effort. Then it became a primary enforcement effort, and now will result in a moving violation.
I wear my seat belt all the time, every time I'm in the car. I'm not arguing that seat belts are a bad thing. I'm pointing out that the slope, once wet, is dangerous.
Or, put another way, the camel, once it ever gets its nose in the tent, never lets up. Ever.
"Opinion polls suggest that a majority recognize a right to bear arms, subject to reasonable regulations protecting public safety". <—— Oh yeah? Who says so?
The government cannot issue any constitutional "regulations" regarding the use and availability of firearms. The 2A is a guarantee to the people that we'll have the means to overthrow an overweening and tyrannical government if it ever should come to that.
It means that the fox isn't allowed to guard the henhouse. If We the People allow this then we become the chickens.
A death rattle from a dying industry.
Liberals: still trying to find a way to re-interpret the 2A so they can take people's guns from them.
The Constitution was written not for a point in time but to address the nature of man, which is timeless and universal.
well-regulated == well-trained
> The hubris of these uneducated mouth breathers to think they could better the work of Madison, Mason and Jefferson is astounding.
That's insulting to mouth-breathers everywhere.
How about "because governments have a natural tendency to behave lawlessly and tyrannically if not held in check, it is the right and duty of all free people to be prepared to oppose such lawlessness and tyranny. Government actions whose purpose or substantial effect is to discourage people from arming themselves effectively against such threats are illegitimate, and lawless persons in the government who engage in such actions should be recognized as enemies of a legitimate free state."
The socialists should simply leave while they can. Walk away.
On top of that, the following US SC decision in the 2010 McDonald case incorporated the 2nd into the 14th Amendment Due Process clause, thus applying the 2nd to the states.
Damn liberals would have us think that the 2nd is not "settled law", which it is. The NYT can go screw itself.
And Roe v. Wade vote was what?
The first use of these militias during "peace time" was against federal tax collectors. Even the left-skewed wikipedia says this:
"The first test of the militia system occurred in July 1794, when a group of disaffected Pennsylvania farmers rebelled against federal tax collectors whom they viewed as illegitimate tools of tyrannical power."
May be of interest to you. (If not, sorry.)
[Art.] 2-a. [The Bearing of Arms.] All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.
[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
And then we can work on getting the Courts to rule in ways consistent with the intent of the Constitutions of the States and the Federal Government.
Correct. And there are those that believe 1A's "law respecting an establishment of religion" refers to law that shows respect for religion.
Regarding the idea of a constitutional amendment, the corrupt federal government cannot afford for the Constitution's Article V, the constitutional amendment process, to be put into the limelight imo. This is because if Constitution-ignorant voters found out that only the states, not the federal government, have the power to ratify proposed amendments to the Constitution, then citizens would also know that the states have absolute control over the federal government via the Constitution, not vice-versa as the corrupt media, including Obama guard dog Fx News, evidently want citizens to think.
What part of a well regulated Militia do you not understand? goes the retort. ...
The Supreme Court has officially noted the following regarding 2A. The Founding States made 2A not to confer gun rights, but to clarify that it is appropriate (my word) to use guns for the natural right to self defense, a natural right which Congress shall not interfere with.
"The second and tenth counts are equally defective. The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States." --United States v. Cruikshank, 1875.
Finally, note that John Bingham, the main author of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, had included 2A in his examples of constitutional statutes containing privileges or immunities which 14A applied to the states. See Bingham's mention of 2A in middle column of following page from post Civil War congressional record.
Congressional Globe, House of Representatives, 42nd Congress, 1st Session
What part of shall not be infringed do you not understand? the gun-rights advocate asks. What part of a well regulated Militia do you not understand? goes the retort.
Congressional Globe, House of Representatives, 42nd Congress, 1st Session
Jake Tapper to Obama and Bloomberg: If you want to regulate guns, maybe you should learn gun basics first
Re: Article V
Both parties are so eager to absorb > 11 millions ill-informed illegals to give them voting rights (on top of our current ill-informed voters), because it will be so much easier to overcome the requirements for
(Wikipedia) "Amendments may be proposed by either:
- two-thirds of both houses of the United States Congress; or
- by a national convention assembled at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds of the states.
To become part of the Constitution, amendments must then be ratified either by approval of:
- the legislatures of three-fourths of the states; or
- state ratifying conventions held in three-fourths of the states."
See, there's a problem here: the courts have already 'clarified' the Constitution so that the explicit and unconstrained prohibitions of the first amendment (e.g. "Congress shall make no law [...] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press") is of no effect. You see, in the 1919 case Schenck v. United States the Supreme Court declared that Congress could indeed make laws abridging speech [and, incidentally, the press]. The case was started over violations of a sedition act because a protester printed out his objections to WWI and thought to encourage people to non-compliance with the draft (as well as petitioning the congress to stop the war & draft) -- now this is important, the US has almost always made exceptions for those religious who felt moral objection to war (Quakers, etc) precisely because of their moral objections to war -- so there was some precedent of moral obligation being held in high regard. Furthermore, the First Amendment was affirmed to make explicit the freedoms of people to protest politically, IOW exactly what the man was doing.
And the USSC said: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force." -- when it is patently obvious that citation is about an injunction [judicial act] and not a congressional [much less legislative] action.
My point is this: our government routinely violates the Constitution.
What is the consequence to those violators? And what are the consequences of the violations?
Well, let's just stop and ponder this.
Mr. Elkins seems to be assuming that things like "reasonable restrictions" and "background checks" are things "many reasonable people would find reassurance in a revised Second Amendment that was properly balanced."
And just what defines "proper balance?"
Who writes the definition of "proper balance?" You, Mr. Elkins?
I am sure that you would answer YES, Mr Elkins.
However Mr. Elkins, due to the massive amount of arms sales that have already occurred during the course of the "most transparent administration" and due to the fact that there is no apparent end in sight for said arms sales I would submit to you Mr Elkins, that "many reasonable people would NOT find reassurance" with you or any of your neo-communist ilk engaging in such an exercise as rewriting the Second Amendment."
But I would offer that such an idea has already been explored.
Allow me...
"The unalienable Right of all individuals as the people to keep and bear all arms with accoutrements at all times in any circumstance, in any location, in or not in defense of themselves or other individuals in any manor as individuals or groups and in or not in defense of their state as organized or unorganized militia, shall not be infringed in any way by any process, rule or law from any domestic or foreign source, forever."
Not quite what you had in mind Mr Elkins?
I do not understand your objection the the new and clarified version of the Second Amendment, Mr Elkins.
It relieves all of the concerns you have expressed, Mr. Elkins.
No more "uncertainty," no more "gun enthusiasts fear."
Gone will be the "constant threat" of infringement.
We will no longer be "Lost in this confusion and anxiety."
We will have rid ourselves of the crushing issue regarding the "awkward, irresolvable phrasing" of the Second Amendment by "agreeing on a formal clarification of the constitutional text."
No more "worrying about the slippery slope of encroachments."
The "violent rhetoric" will have been stopped as we have "adapted our antique highest law to modern technological and cultural developments."
Of course, in retrospect, we will have simply proven (once again) the incredible effectiveness of the Founding Fathers to clearly articulate their ideas.
The Founding Fathers version... 27 words.
My "adaptation of antique highest law to modern technological and cultural developments" version... 74 words.
New and improved version? Almost three times as long, to say the same exact thing.
And did the Founding Fathers know exactly what they were doing?
You Betcha.
If the Founding Fathers meant for there to be laws restricting an American Citizen of their right to freely and without restraint posses arms they would have clearly written it into the text of the Amendment just like they did in these...
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law
Amendment III
but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment XII
no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny
And these...
The Second Amendment is absolutely clear here.
It is:
"shall not be infringed"
Not "according to the rules of the common law"
Not "but in a manner to be prescribed by law"
Not "but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation"
Not "without due process of law"
Not "Congress shall have power to enforce this"
Not "The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation"
Not "unless they shall by law"
Not "Congress may by law"
Not "and shall not prevent"
Not "No law"
Yeah, the Founding Fathers had every single opportunity for YEARS to put such a stipulation in the Second Amendment.
What do we see there?
Do we see the stipulations that are in many of the other Amendments?
The "Bill of Rights" took seven months to write. This was in addition to the eleven years for the Constitution. The Constitutional Convention was 116 days long. The Bill of Rights was not ratified until 1791.
There was plenty of time to create stipulations for the Second Amendment that would allow certain encroachments based upon existing or future law or laws. Such stipulations exist throughout the Constitution and it's Amendments, including the first ten.
The Second Amendment contains only one stipulation.
"Shall not be infringed."
My conclusion is they damn well meant exactly not in the slightest scintilla. They were experts in what happens when such concessions are allowed. It is the absolute definition of "slippery slope."
Such concessions are the exact cause of being tangled in the 20,000 infringements spider web of laws, rules, ordinances and policies of today.
But, to be sure, let's look one more time.
"The unalienable Right of all individuals as the people to keep and bear all arms with accoutrements at all times in any circumstance, in any location, in or not in defense of themselves or other individuals in any manor as individuals or groups and in or not in defense of their state as organized or unorganized militia, shall not be infringed in any way by any process, rule or law from any domestic or foreign source, forever."
This one is just for you because there is no "uncertainty and confusion" when we come to understanding YOU, Mr. ZACHARY ELKINS, associate professor of government at the University of Texas, Austin, Texas.
Zachary Elkins
Associate Professor Ph.D., University of California, Berkeley
Curriculum Vitae
Contact V E-mail: email@example.com
Phone: 512.232.7250
Office: BAT 4.120 v Campus Mail Code: A1800
Professor Elkins research focuses on issues of democracy, institutional reform, research methods, and national identity, with an emphasis on cases in Latin America. He is currently completing a book manuscript, Designed by Diffusion: Constitutional Reform in Developing Democracies, which examines the design and diffusion of democratic institutions, and recently completed The Endurance of National Constitutions, which explores the factors that lead to the survival of national constitutions. With Tom Ginsburg (University of Chicago), Professor Elkins co-directs both the Comparative Constitutions Project, a NSF-funded initiative to understand the causes and consequences of constitutional choices, and the website constitutionmaking.org, which provides resources and analysis for constitutional drafters in new democracies. Elkins earned his B.A. from Yale University, an M.A. from the University of Texas at Austin, and his Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley.
Unfortunately, the liberals are too stupid to realize they're poking a tiger - not a bundle of wet straw. That is most unfortunate for them, because when they finally do realize their error, it'll be far too late to avoid the inevitable consequences.
Of course I'm interested. Ping me anytime you want, darlin'.
You have just explained why the Article II, Section 1, clause 5 eligibility requirement to be President, 'Natural born Citizen', hasn't been amended.
Once the explanation is widely understood - a Natural born Citizen is born in the United States of citizen parents - there will be few if any dissenting votes.
A contest!
The right of the law abiding American Citizen to own any firearm, for the defense of his country, family, possessions, the United States Constitution, and against tyrannical and oppressive government, shall not be infringed, furthermore, The federal government, or the states, shall make no law restricting the ownership of firearms. And The American people can hunt too.
(First draft.)
This big fight is over what is a "reasonable regulation". I have seen that polling question before, and it almost never defines what respondents consider reasonable. When the clarify what regulations are actually being considered support is often anywhere from under 40% to barely over 50%, depending on what is proposed. I.E. I personally think background checks should be improved, am not convinced that Schumer's bill contains any improvements to the current background check system, and am certain that it contains numerous provisions that are either irrelevant or counter-productive.
He is correct. Another factoid that is ignored is that the Militia Acts came after the 2nd Amendment - likely to take advantage of the fact that the populace was guaranteed the right to be armed.
If they want to rewrite it, I would suggest, "The ability of a populace to defend itself from an overbearing government being integral to the preservation of Freedom, anyone who attempts to disarm the population will be shot".
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After dinner, he took me to his grandma's house. We played cards and talked about the Bible. He totally rate daped me.
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Lucky Brand Reese Wedge Sandal
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Big Book Of Science Experiments (Hardcover) Book
TIME For Kids' successful Super Science Book just got bigger and better-with the all-new Big Book of Science Experiments. This full-color and expanded hardcover book presents 100 fresh and fascinating experiments for kids 8 to 12 to wrap their heads (and hands) around.The inquiry-based experiments cover aspects of physical, life and earth science, and dovetail with the school science curriculum. The intriguing experiments were created by the experts at Mad Science, the world's leading science enrichment provider. Probing questions to be explored include:How does oil affect plants? Which traits do you share with your family? Can a battery turn a nail into a magnet? Clear and colorful step-by-step directions accompany each experiment so children can easily follow the procedure. Additional background information and fun facts for each experiment lets kids know how it affects them and their world, explains the science behind what they've just done, and gives concrete extensions and ways to learn more about each subject.A Science Fair chapter gives readers winning ways to present material to the public, including how to create visuals to display results, how to use and control variables, and how to tackle the scientific process. Audience: Children - Grade 4-6, Age 9-11
- Author: Time for Kids Magazine
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- Dimensions: 9.75 H x 0.75 D x 8.50 W inches
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Happy Hours Lead to Unhappy Mornings
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Tools of communication have transformed American society time and again over the past two centuries. The Museum has preserved many instruments of these changes, from printing presses to personal digital assistants.
The collections include hundreds of artifacts from the printing trade and related fields, including papermaking equipment, wood and metal type collections, bookbinding tools, and typesetting machines. Benjamin Franklin is said to have used one of the printing presses in the collection in 1726.
More than 7,000 objects chart the evolution of electronic communications, including the original telegraph of Samuel Morse and Alexander Graham Bell's early telephones. Radios, televisions, tape recorders, and the tools of the computer age are part of the collections, along with wireless phones and a satellite tracking system.
"Communications - Overview" showing 1 items.
The Heliograph Station--signalling between land and naval forces--near Pasay, Philippine Islands. Copyright 1899 by Underwood & Underwood. [on negative] 20943 Photonegative 1899
- Notes
- Company catalog card included.
- Currently stored in box 3.1.51 [100].
- Date
- 1899
- 1890-1900
- publisher
- Underwood & Underwood
- Local number
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- Archives Center - NMAH


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Charles David Ines Wedge Sandal
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text:
Cleveland Library will be the site of the display of local artist, Clifford Oviatt's paintings and other artwork. He has been described as having wonderful patience and great imagination. He has a photographic memory, too, which makes it easy for him to paint scenes without a picture in front of him as a guide.
Clifford began painting when he was 11 years old. He thought it looked interesting so he just gave it a try, and the rest is history. He is self-taught and still finds great self-expression through his work. His favorite subjects are landscapes and wildlife, and he enjoys painting on canvas and murals best. Most of his paintings, including murals, take about 100 hours to complete, so he does them in his home or on location.
Painting isn't Cliff's only talent in the art field. He makes mountain man items out of leather, creates bird houses, arrows, and bear heads from polymer clay and oak, builds shadow boxes, is now rebuilding a black powder gun, and can copy anyone's signature perfectly. When his dad wasn't around, Cliff would sign notes to excuse himself from school classes, without the office even realizing it wasn't his father's signature.
Clifford began to teach painting classes in 1971, and still teaches at Pinnacle Canyon Academy and Cleveland Elementary once a week. "Each art class is a fun time due to the students appreciation," says Cliff. One of his students is his wife Verlynn, whom he married in 1992.
Oviatt's artistry is all around Emery and Carbon counties. Four of the murals in the Museum of the San Rafael are his work, along with the cast wall relief panel and area around the fireplace at the Castle Valley Ranch in Emery. Talon Resources, San Rafael Research, the court chambers in Wellington, and many local homes sport Clifford Oviatt paintings. Everyone is welcome to see his wonderful work displayed at the Cleveland Library for two weeks beginning May 7-18. This great man is appreciated for his willingness to share his work with everyone.


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Napoleon III Sculptural Mantel Clock
- Item No.
This stunning Napoleon III clock boasts outstanding artistry and innovative design
Key Features
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- This rare Napoleon III clock by Brocot combines mechanical brilliance and artistic skill
- Crafted of rouge marble and patinated bronze the clock also incorporates a calendar
- A fantastic equine bronze sculpture complements this exceptional timepiece
Item Details
- Height:
23 3/4 Inches
- Period:
- Origin:
This highly important Napoleon III patinated bronze and rouge marble mantel clock by Louis-Gabriel and Achille Brocot is a work of mechanical and artistic beauty. Featuring a Brocot pin-lever escapement with ruby pallets for precise telling of time, this clock also incorporates a calendar, measuring the date and day of the week with great accuracy. This superb timepiece is distinguished by its vivid rouge marble case surmounted by a patinated bronze horse sculpture and gilt accents.
The clock is marked "Brocot brevete"
Circa 1860
23 3/4" high23 3/4" high
The clock is marked "Brocot brevete"
Circa 1860
23 3/4" high23 3/4" high


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Tory Burch Gossip
Tory Burch gossip, latest news, photos, and video.
Next up for Jen?
October 3, 2007 00:00:00 Posted at October 3, 2007 00:00:00
Tory Burch and Lance Armstrong are over. Distance is the official reason, the unofficial reason is probably because he's a dickhead. Don't get me wrong… once upon a time Lance was the ultimate Quiveration and a former #1 on the Freebie Five. But just because he crusades for cancer doesn't make him a nice boyfriend or even a considerate husband. Full Story


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LFR6 - Game 20 - Naz can pazz
Steve Dangle
February 26 2013 11:31AM
Nazem Kadri putting up points and I'm speaking Russian. This season is way different than last season.
The question isn't: Will acquiring this player cost too much?
The question is: Will this player upgrade this team and help them win more games, during the time that he will be here.
I think yes. Therefore they should make the trade. It's ok to think that no he won't. But you'd be wrong. Which is ok. It's just ... wrong.
Are the Leafs good enough to get into the playoffs and once there pose a credible threat to win the cup? Right now? Maybe. They sure would look better with O'Reilly in the lineup, dropping Bozak to a lesser role.
In conclusion: Yes please.
February 26 2013, 08:00PM
Yes, I want O'Reilly. I am terrified of what he will cost given the Leafs' recent track record for shipping out promising young players.
Please do the Russian flourish whenever Grabbo or Kulie scores. Or any Leaf, really. Imagine a Russian call of the Kadri plays.
February 27 2013, 12:46AM
Craig - How can you say that when you don't know what would be going back the other way?
Well I assume Nonis won't give up much more than fair market value. So I suppose there could be a situation where I don't like whats given up but.... ya I don't think that'll happen is what I'm saying.
If he can help the Leafs as much as I think he can (which is a point up for debate) then it doesn't really matter what's given up. Obviously there's limitations to that statement if you really want to get picky.
It's like AA said: Don't worry about what you give up, worry about what you get back.


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This Just In ...
Kevin Fischer is a veteran broadcaster, the recipient of over 150 major journalism awards from the Milwaukee Press Club, the Wisconsin Associated Press, the Northwest Broadcast News Association, the Wisconsin Bar Association, and others. He has been seen and heard on Milwaukee TV and radio stations for over three decades. A longtime aide to state Senate Republicans in the Wisconsin Legislature, Kevin can be seen offering his views on the news on the public affairs program, "InterCHANGE," on Milwaukee Public Television Channel 10, and heard filling in on Newstalk 1130 WISN. He lives with his wife, Jennifer, and their lovely young daughter, Kyla Audrey, in Franklin.
Photos of the Week (06/29/14)
1) United States' Clint Dempsey scores his side's second goal making the score 2-1 against Portugal in a World Cup match last Sunday. Photo: Julio Cortez / AP
2) Portugal's Silvestre Varela scores his team's second goal as goalkeeper Tim Howard of the United States looks on. The last minute goal resulted in a 2-2 tie. Photo: Elsa / Getty Images
3) Goalkeeper Tim Howard of the U.S. (L) and teammate Matt Besler react after Portugal's Varela (C) scored an equalizer during their 2014 World Cup G soccer match at the Amazonia arena in Manaus June 22, 2014. (REUTERS/Dylan Martinez)
4) Fans in Grant Park in Chicago react as the Portuguese team scores the last minute 2-2 equalizer in the FIFA World Cup 2014 preliminary round group G match. Photo: Tannen Maury / EPA
5) President Barack Obama caught soccer fever and spent some time watching the first half of the U.S. and Germany World Cup soccer match on his way to Minnesota on Thursday aboard Air Force One. To Obama's right is senior advisor Valerie Jarrett. Photo: LARRY DOWNING / Reuters
6) Fans of the German national team watch the World Cup 2014 match between Germany and USA on their sofas at the public viewing at stadium of German soccer team FC Union in Berlin, Germany, 26 June 2014. (EPA/MAJA HITIJ)
7) Team USA fans Jon Gonzalez and Angie Plummer have mixed reactions at Zeppelin Hall Restaurant and Biergarten in Jersey City, N.J., throughout the USA vs. Germany FIFA World Cup match. Photo: Michael Loccisano / Getty Images
8) US goalkeeper Tim Howard (back C) receives Germany's 1-0 lead during the FIFA World Cup 2014 group G preliminary round match between the USA and Germany at the Arena Pernambuco in Recife, Brazil, 26 June 2014. (EPA/SRDJAN SUKI) Here's another look. Photo: BRIAN SNYDER / Reuters
9) United States fans react while watching the final minutes of the 2014 World Cup soccer match between the United States and Germany at a public viewing party in Detroit. Photo: Paul Sancya / AP
10) American astronauts on the International Space Station, Steve Swanson and Reid Wiseman, followed through on their World Cup bet, allowing their German crewmate Alexander Gerst to shave their heads to match Gerst's bald pate following the U.S. team's 1-0 loss to Germany on Thursday. Photo: NASA / ISS
11) Uruguay striker Luis Suarez was banned for nine international games and four months after appearing to bite an Italian opponent Tuesday in a key World Cup qualifying game. Television replays showed Suarez apparently biting the shoulder of Italy defender Giorgio Chiellini as the pair clashed in the Italian penalty area. It happened about a minute before Uruguay's Diego Godín scored in the 81st, lifting Uruguay past Italy, 1-0. Suarez was already sanctioned with a heavy ban for biting Chelsea defender Branislav Ivanovic in the English Premier League in 2013. In this photo, Suarez holds his teeth as Chiellini reacts moments after the collision. Photo: EMILIO LAVANDEIRA JR / EPA
12) A U.S. soccer fan pretends that Uruguay's soccer striker Luis Suarez is biting him as he takes a selfie next to an Adidas advertisement featuring Suarez near Copacabana beach in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, Thursday, June 26, 2014. FIFA banned Suarez from all football activities for four months on Thursday for biting an opponent at the World Cup, a punishment that rules him out of the rest of the tournament. (AP Photo/Matt Dunham)
13) Forget banners. Many Japanese fans were waving bright blue garbage bags at the group stage finale against Colombia. The Japanese have touched spectators around the world by cleaning up their trash after every match at the World Cup. After their 0-0 draw against Greece last week, fans of the Blue Samurai shrugged off disappointment and cleaned up after themselves inside the stadium following the final whistle. It's a class act that has its roots in Japan's values of being respectful of hosts and protecting the environment. Japan's 1-4 loss to Colombia on Tuesday eliminated the team from the World Cup. Photos: Christopher Lee / Getty Images and Adam Pretty/ Getty Images
14) A flight attendant wearing a Brazil soccer team jersey demonstrates the emergency mask on an airplane travelling from Kunming to Hangzhou June 23, 2014. A Chinese airline company renovated the cabin of one of its flights then dressed the flight attendants with soccer jerseys as a way to celebrate the 2014 Brazil World Cup and hoping to attract more customers, local media reported. (REUTERS/Wong Campion)
15) The blood soaked uniform jacket worn by Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand when he was shot to death in Sarajevo is on display at the Museum of Military History in Vienna, Austria. Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie were assassinated in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914, an event which eventually led to the outbreak of World War I, 100 years ago Saturday. Photo: Image credit: Ronald Zak
16) Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson listens while testifying on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, June 24, 2014, before the House Homeland Security Committee hearing regarding the growing problem of unaccompanied children crossing the border into the US. Johnson told the committee he would consider "every conceivable, lawful option" to deal with a continuing flood of immigrants crossing the U.S. border illegally from Mexico into southern Texas. (AP Photo/Charles Dharapak)
17) A displaced Iraqi Christian man who fled from the Christian village of Hamdania near Mosul province in Iraq, lies on the ground at a temporary shelter for the displaced Christian families in Ainkawa, a suburb of Irbil, with a majority Christian population, Iraq, Saturday, June 28, 2014. Around 2,000 Christians had entered the Kurdish city of Irbil by Thursday morning, June 26. A Christian official there said the Kurdish region is the only part of Iraq where Christians are protected from violence. Photo: Hussein Malla | AP
18) A view of the north tower of the Golden Gate Bridge on June 27, 2014 in Sausalito, California. The Golden Gate Bridge district's board of directors voted unanimously to approve a $76 million funding package to build a net suicide barrier on the iconic span. Over 1,500 people committed suicide by jumping from the iconic bridge since it opened in 1937. 46 people jumped to their death in 2013. (Photo by Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)
19) The United Nations cultural agency designated the network of over 2,000 years old, man-made caves outside of Jerusalem a World Heritage site, the eighth such site in Israel. UNESCO added the caves of Beit Guvrin-Maresha — known as a "city under a city" — to the prestigious list of World Heritage sites during its annual meeting in Qatar last Sunday. Photo: MENAHEM KAHANA / AFP - Getty Images
20) Lava flows out of the Piton de la Fournaise volcano on the French island of La Reunion in the Indian Ocean on June 21. Photo: Richard Bouhet / AFP - Getty Images
21) A resident with his face covered in mud and concealed in dried Banana leaves, makes the rounds of houses to beg for candles prior to attending a mass to celebrate the Feast Day of St. John the Baptist at the village of Bibiclat, Aliaga township, Nueva Ecija province in northern Philippines Tuesday, June 24, 2014. The unique annual tradition, which dates back to the 1940's, is being observed to pay homage to Saint John the Baptist, whom they claimed saved the lives of residents of this village. The residents are known as "Taong Putik" or Mud People. (AP Photo/Bullit Marquez)
22) Castellers Colla Joves Xiquets de Valls start to form a human tower called "castells" during the Sant Joan festival at Plaza del Blat square in Valls, south of Barcelona June 24, 2014. (REUTERS/Albert Gea)
23) A man representing the devil leaps over babies during the festival of El Salto del Colacho (the devil's jump) last Sunday in Castrillo de Murcia, Spain. The festival, held on the first Sunday after Corpus Christi, is a Catholic rite of the devil cleansing babies of original sin. Photo: Denis Doyle / Getty Images
24) A Hindu devotee performs a stunt with his motorcycle during a rehearsal for the annual Rath Yatra, or chariot procession, in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad June 22, 2014. The annual religious procession commemorates a journey by Hindu god Jagannath, his brother Balabhadra and sister Subhadra, in specially made chariots. The Rath Yatra will be held on June 29. (REUTERS/Amit Dave)
25) Workers construct an Eiffel Tower replica made of chairs on Monday in Paris. Designed by outdoor furniture maker Fermob, the piece marks the 125th anniversary of the Eiffel Tower and the Fermob coffee house "Bistro" chair in Paris. Photo: STEPHANE DE SAKUTIN / AFP - Getty Images
26) The world-famous 'Mona Lisa', in the original by Leonardo da Vinci, decorates the facade of a building next to the atelier 'Blauer Turm' (lit.: Blue Tower) in Hollfeld, Germany, June 27, 2014. Within a few weeks, German artist Volker Wunderlich painted the picture on the facade of the former brewery 'Weisse Taube' (lit.: White Dove). The name explains the addition on the facade of two white doves. (EPA/DAVID EBENER)
27) British artist Tracy Emins sits in front of her 1998 piece 'My Bed' on display at Christie's on June 27, 2014 in London, England. This iconic work from the YBA moment is being offered at auction for the first time and is estimated to sell for between 800,000 - 1.2 million GBP. (Photo by Rob Stothard/Getty Images)
28) Canadian hooper Rebecca Halls performs with illuminated hula hoops at the Hula Hoop Festival Hoopurbia 2014 in Berlin, Germany, Sunday, June 29, 2014. Hoopurbia 2014 is the third edition of an urban hula hoop festival bringing together hoopers from around the globe for six days of workshops, dance parties and performance showcases with hula hoops. Photo: Gero Breloer | AP
29) Polar bear Giovanna plays with her twin polar bear cubs Nela and Nobby outside in their new enclosure at Tierpark Hellabrunn zoo in Munich June 26, 2014. (REUTERS/Michaela Rehle)
30) Eight-year-old Xing Xing entertained the crowds at the National Zoo in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, on Wednesday. Xing Xing is one of two Chinese pandas loaned for ten years to Malaysia to mark the 40th anniversary of diplomatic ties between the two countries. The panda was formerly known as Fu Wa but in an announcement made Wednesday he and his partner were renamed as Xing Xing (prosperity) and Liang Liang (pretty). Photo: AHMAD YUSNI / EPA
31) Kayden Dunaway, 6, falls off a sheep during the Mutton Bustin' competition at the Garrard County Fair near Lancaster, Ky. on Thursday June 26, 2014. The maximum weight for each contestant is 55 pounds. The sheep were donated by The Bluegrass Stockyards in Stanford, Ky. (AP Photo/The Advocate-Messenger, Clay Jackson)
32) Tristan Robertson-Jeyes, aged 3, plays with a 'Teksta T-Rex' toy dinosaur outside Hamley's toy shop on June 26, 2014 in London, England. The toy dinosaur, which retails for 75 GBP, is included in Hamleys' predictions for the top selling toys for Christmas 2014. (Photo by Rob Stothard/Getty Images)
33) Guinness Book of Records judge Philip Robertson (left) holds a giant spoon as Dan Williamson, director of Sales and Distribution at Kemps LLC, holds up a certificate declaring a new record for the largest scoop of ice cream, at Cedarburg's 29th Annual Strawberry Festival. Kemps broke the record in honor of its 100th Anniversary. Kemps workers start scooping out small dishes of ice cream from the giant scoop for the crowd at the festival. The strawberry-flavored mound weighed 3,012 pounds. Kemp was prepared to give away 30,000 bowls of ice cream to fest-goers. Journal Sentinel photos: Michael Sears
34) A rollover crash in Bel-Air, California, last week didn't seem to faze the elderly couple involved. After the blue Honda tipped over, the uninjured couple posed for pictures with the car — even though the wife was still trapped inside. The couple seemed to be in good spirits, according to Los Angeles police. The woman even asked her husband for her purse so she could take a picture of herself, police said. Los Angeles County firefighters helped free her. Authorities did not say what caused the rollover in the first place.Photo: RMG News
The Relfie
Celebrating Life's Less Graceful Moments
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Isn't this spell a little too convenient?
I mean, the ability to completely and utterly annihilate every enemy around you while leaving your allies uninjured???! Dam...
And it doesn't even seem to spend that much magic energy either, since both the old man and Luxus looked fine after using it
So, haxx or no haxx?


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Audrey Brooke Paramount Satchel
Sorry, this item is sold out!
Looks like you've got more shoe shopping to do - have fun!
Looks like you've got more shoe shopping to do - have fun!
Item # dsw12prod4060270
Audrey Brooke is a versatile brand offering everything from totes to cross body bags in the most stylish way. The Paramount satchel is a timeless choice with its classic design.
- Genuine leather satchel
- Two compartments with top zip closures
- Rolled handles with 7" drop
- Removable chainlink strap with 14" drop
- Detachable logo keychain
- Fabric lining with zip pocket and two slip pockets
- Center snap compartment
- Dimensions: 16" x 6" x 11"
- Imported
By: hayds
Location: LOS ANGELES
February 15, 2013
Cute bag
"I bought this bag today and have already received a compliment. This bag is very cute, however the bag that I got didn't have the cross body strap attached to it. I was wondering if it did when i first glanced at it and now that I see the bag on line Ive realized that it is missing. It's really not that big of a deal since I liked the bag at first glance anyway. However, I would have liked to have had the option with the strap since I paid full price for it. So,for that I am giving it 4 stars."
By: soHappy
Location: New York, NY
February 04, 2013
I carry it every day
"I needed a bag for my commute to work, but didn't want 1 tall compartment where I would have to dig. This is very versatile as described. I carry it crossbody, on my shoulder, and by the short handles. I knew there were 3 compartments and even in a rush I find what I need. The black leather looks better than some of my more expensive bags. Keep in mind the center compartment is magnetic closure. I use it often for things like my water bottle, flats, and other things that will be removed when i get to work... lunch, etc. It carries a lot of stuff but no more digging for the metro card! Good purchase."
By: BluejayFL
Location: Miami
December 08, 2012
I love this bag,
"The leather is very soft, is very well made and big to carry all you need. The only down side is that has two separate compartments, if you are In a hurry and are not very well organized you end up having to open them all to find what you need, but you get used to it, I am going to get a brown too."
Click anywhere to close this.


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Main Content
- 4-Way stretch
- 85% Recycled polyester/15% Spandex
- Back flap pocket with hook & loop fastener
- Lycra gusset
- Metallic foil print
- Sewn-in bungee lanyard to hold keys or wax comb in pocket
- Sewn-on stripes
- Side slits at hem
- Size 30 has a 9" inseam
- Tie front with six Hurley grommets
- Water-repellent
- Embroidered logo patch
- EZ fly closure
- Imported
- Hand wash, line dry
- Imported
- Brand: Hurley
Other Customers also liked:
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Manufacturer direct items are shipped directly from the manufacturer. These items are not available for international or expedited shipping.
Customized items can be personalized with options such as your name, your favorite number, and/or designs. Some options may be limited by league rules.


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Top Paw® Dog Water Fountain
Your dog can enjoy fresh water all day in a large, comfortable drinking area thanks to this free-flowing water fountain. A charcoal filter removes odors and bad tastes to keep the water tasting great, while the 50-oz. built-in reservoir provides a steady, enticing stream of water to keep your 4-legged friend properly hydrated. Ensure your thirsty pup always has an ample supply of fresh water with this Top Paw Water Fountain for Dogs. The free-flowing fountain constantly offers an enticing drink for your furry friend and is backed up by a 50-oz. reservoir that keeps water on hand and makes refills a snap. Your pooch will love to lap up every drop thanks to a charcoal filter that keeps the water clean and tasting great. The durable, BPA-free polypropylene plastic drinking area offers plenty of space for your dog to drink in comfort.
- Made from BPA-free polypropylene plastic material for safe use and durability
- Free-falling stream entices your pooch to drink a healthy amount of water
- Replaceable charcoal filter removes bad tastes and odors from the water to provide a refreshing drink
- Submersible pump ensures quiet operation
- 50-oz. built-in reservoir increases capacity, maintains water level and makes refills easy
- Large drinking area offers plenty of space for your pup to drink comfortably
- Modern-style, dark gray design complements your home
- For large-breed dogs
- Once fountain is assembled and the pump is in place, make sure to insert the charcoal filter properly; place fountain in desired location and make sure to protect your floors with a mat or other durable surface from spills
- Fill the fountain with water to the max fill line, then plug the electrical cord into the outlet; monitor the fountain and fill with water when low
- Warranty: 1 year limited
Please keep out of reach of children
Availablein a 2-gal. size.
Now: $ 24.99 to $ 52.99
$ 2.97
$ 32.99 to $ 39.99
$ 23.99 to $ 29.99


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Episode 426: Monique Jenkinson
October 28, 2013 · Print This Article
This week: This week Brian and Matt Sussman talk with Monique Jenkinson, whose work draws from dance, theater, performance art and drag. Hot topics include: staging a guerilla fashion show in a museum, the subversive power of Disney princesses and how performers are like archives. Plus, more divas than the Daytime Emmys!
Don't forget the apexart "Unsolicited Proposal" deadline looms large, go go now!! http://www.apexart.org/unsolicited.php
We'll miss you Lou.
Matt says "The photo should be credited to Arturo Cosenza".


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Spicy Pomodoro Sauce with Pepita Basil Pesto
Social Media Sharing
The recipe for this sauce was derived from one of our original sauces -- Salsa D'Inverno (Winter Tomato Sauce). Using the original recipe as a base, Pappardelle's own Chef Alison added a dash of red pepper flakes and a few other spicy accoutrements to give this sauce a nicely balanced spicy bite. We've also tossed in a dollop of our Nutless Pepita Pesto, which rounds out the flavor and makes for an eye pleasing surprise when you pop the top.
11 oz. container
Product Specifications
Tomatoes (Calcium Chloride & Citric Acid), Basil, Onions, Extra-Virgin Olive Oil, Canola Oil, Zucchini, Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized Cow Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Romano Cheeses (Pasteurized Sheep Milk, Enzymes, Salt), Red Wine (Contains Sulfites), Water, Pepita Seeds (Pumpkin Seeds), Garlic, Fennel, Parsley, Roasted Red Peppers, Vegetable Stock (Sauteed Vegetable Puree Mix (Carrots, Onions, Celery), Salt, Sugar Maltodextrin, Corn Oil, Less Than 2% of Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Potato Starch, Xanthan Gum, Natural Flavors, Carrot Juice Concentrate), Green Bell Pepper, Salt, Crushed Red Pepper, Pepper, Spices.


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Hi, everybody, just registered.
I was wondering if anyone had a link to a pimping scotch tape tutorial. I know there are alot out there, but I dont' really care for most of them that I have found.
I really like the one on rustydesigns.com, but that appears to be nuked. :-/ All I remember about it is that it used the plastic wrap filter.
Any help would be great appreciated. :-)


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Style # 198233
AVAILABILITY: Unavailable for immediate shipment.
With a geometric lace design, low scoop neck and curve-hugging silhouette, this bodycon dress is both romantic and sexy. Turn up the glam by adding oversized hoops, stacked bangles, metallic wedges and, of course, a conversation-starting cocktail ring. Center back to hem: 29"
- 92% rayon, 8% spandex
- Hand wash
- Made in USA
- Model is 5'9" and is wearing a US size S
Rated 0 out of 5
0-0 of 0


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Skip to comments.Does Objective truth exist? If so, why?
Posted on 12/15/2012 8:18:27 PM PST by Zeneta
I'd like to share this for those that are interested in seeking truth.
The issues run far and wide, however there seems a core to understanding that needs to be examined.
easy links:
But, a persuasive argument for objective truth can only be conducted subjectively.
And therein lies the tragedy of our age.
Facts tell but stories sell.
wonder why things were written the way they were?
Thanks for your reply.
Did you watch the videos ?
The issue at hand, is why?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
I rather like that.
This may or may not surprise you, but the encumbrances of language forbid us to entertain the vanity of knowing truth objectively.
That was my point.
Where does logic come from?
can you point to it in any materialistic way?
Ping for later
Yes 1 plus 1 equals 2.
How is it even possible that we know this?
As Albert Einstein said:
The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible.
Only if we agree what those numerical symbols mean. I'll play Devil's Advocate now. I have no idea what those artificial symbols mean. I don't understand your truth, because your language is inadequate. Worse still, I'm deaf.
Now try to get me to understand the objective truth of the beautiful dawn song of the crissal thrasher.
I'll play, but give me a moment to deal with something.
Actually, one of the most persuasive arguments is a simple analysis of the statement, "There is no objective truth."
The statement can not be true.
so I get this FR mail from:
"I see my hands"
Everything I touch
with tenderness, alas,
pricks like a bramble. ~ Issa
I suspect he is a mohammedan.
It has all the weight of an empty tautology, but not its cleverness.
All Cretans Are Liars.
How is logic a trap ?
It seems to me that atheist scientists research enough to find facts that seem to contradict the Biblical details of acts by a divine God, and then ease off on the research when it has validated their belief (or lack thereof).
Real scientists would continue the research and test for repeatable results or unforeseen variables.
Real scientists never stop testing their theories, even those that seem proved.
I agree, but using language we can understand, if not know.
All this is that.
The trap is language -- again! -- and how its constraints and limitations act as a barrier to the conveyance of truth.
Devil's Advocate: I'm also blind. The 49ers have red and gold uniforms. Please help me understand the objective truth of that color scheme.
Does 1 + 1 equal 2?
Then objective truth exists.
Try to live life apart from it and see how it works out.
I can't quote a single passage from the bible, yet I know it to be true.
I have come to this from my 20 years of asking questions.
It is not what I want to believe, it is the logical conclusion.
Does your relativism know any bounds?
Skip the light fandango:
I think you're on to something. Without language, of course, even basic communication from one to another is impossible. But the only thing standing in the way of pure understanding is language.
words are great.
Your circular attempt at reason is another thing all together.
I believe we're not born automatically into grace (objective truth). I believe we have to seek objective truth (grace) on our own (subjectively).
And then it's incumbent upon us to accept it.
That was my point. Sometimes I digress, cuz it's fun.
Fair enough.
I like to push the thoughts and beliefs of those I engage.
I'm an a**hole.
This is as much to say as Truth is necessarily subjective, that is "felt". Objective and Subjective are modes of knowing, and the preminence of science has elevated the former over the latter, but the Greek sophists argued that the subjective is primary, and the objective secondary, that is constructed ... communicated ... external. Our entire personal reality is in fact subjective.
Me too. And I've been called far worse than an a$&hole before.
Enjoyed your thread. All the best!
really ?
How do you know this ?
really ?
How do you know this ?
Do you know this objectively or subjectively ?
Well said.
Without God there is no objective truth.
Without God there is no objective truth.
Dear Fly,
You are on the right track, however I would advise you to establish definitions for the words you use.
At the end of the day you need to own something.
Can't be said enough.
Yes, it is.
Imagine that you are given the goal of creating the complete works of William Shakespeare.
Using coincidence in chaos theory you get infinite monkeys pounding on infinite typewriters for infinite time and you will create those works.
Or you could use a Divine God of order creating and developing the family that would contain William Shakespeare.
The logic requires only one question:
In chaos where would you get monkeys and typewriters, let alone an infinite supply of them and time.
To suggest infinite time, the universe would have to last forever, and entropy suggests the opposite
"The 49ers have red and gold uniforms. Please help me understand the objective truth of that color scheme."
Photons having wavelengths of 700 and 600 nanometers would be incident upon your blind eyeballs (even though you wouldn't be able to detect them).
First, subjectively, and second objectively :-)
But seriously, it makes sense, does it not? What else do we have to go on? And then when we analyze the mind objectively we conclude, yes, the mind has nothing else to go on.
Colors are entirely subjective. If you make a short study of colorimetry, you will find that color standards are based on a standard SUBJECT, which is a statistical composite of experimental human SUBJECTs who report their experience of equivalent colors with variable spectral compostion.
Would you two be gracious enough to let me wedge a word in there?
"Without accepting God, there is no objective truth.
I'm with you and more.
I find it very curious that modern day scientist invoke "Dark matter" and "Dark energy" to explain how we can even exist. Dark, of course means unknown.
Hey, that's cool since we can incorporate some multiverse theory that provides an unprovable out.
I don't see it quite that way. Standing in the way - yes, there are schools of thought that feel that the intellect is a hinderance or worse to knowing the ultimate truth (or truths - depending on your belief) - I don't think so myself.
Pure understanding - what is it? I think really that is knowing or experiencing... which comes back to that being an non-intellectual, therefore non-language - experience.
I feel compelled to relate the old Stanley Myron Handelman bit on this subject. He reports that he had heard that a roomful of monkeys with typewriters would eventually accomplish this feat, so he decided to try, and put the monkeys in a room with typewriters. After a while he decided to see how they were doing, and looked in. To his chagrin, "... they weren't typing! They were just messing around in there!"
I fundamentally disagree with the above statement.
Objective truth exists with or without God. That is what makes it objective.
I found God reluctantly, and had no choice in the matter.
A simple, well not so simple, result of logical conclusion.
You need to gain a greater understanding math and probabilities.
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Cameras will capture the five guys as they live together in California and work on their third album.
The Wanted is wanted on TV.
The British band is heading to California to record their third album and gear up for their new U.S. & Europe tour later in 2013.
So E! has decided to put the cameras on the five guys who will live together in the Hollywood Hills.
Produced by Ryan Seacrest Productions, SB Productions and Global TV UK, the half-hour series will premiere in June on E! and around the world in fall.
Suzanne Kolb, president of E!, says the idea behind the show is to give viewers a glimpse of the "rock star lifestyle," as well as offering a "perfect blend of music, bromance and superstardom."
Exec producer Ryan Seacrest promises "plenty of humor, antics and drama behind the scenes."
Here's how E! characterizes The Wanted guys:
At 24, Max George is the ladies' man of the group and has been linked with Lindsay Lohan. He nearly signed a deal to play football with Preston North End in Manchester before joining the group. Following a very public break-up with his ex-fiancée, Max is playing the field … and loving it.
Siva Kaneswaran, 24, is the most serious and Zen-like member of the band.
Funny but elusive, Jay McGuinness can be the most secretive of the group, and at 22, possesses a "Jekyll and Hyde" personality.
Tom Parker, 24, has strong opinions on where the band should be headed, which often gets him into hot water with his band mates. He's got a girlfriend who fits right in with the guys but the relationship can be challenged by all the time Tom spends with the group.
Nathan Sykes, 19, is the baby of the group but has proven to be one of the most mature and grounded.