text:
Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
July 16 2008 11:17AM
Dear Everybody,
We have been running this site for nearly nine months now. It's a lot of work. We have to turn on our computer, we have to think of things to write, and then we have to decide which spell-check option to pick when we write the words wrong. Then we have to hit publish. In short, it's a real pain. But we do it for the kids. You know, all five of our readers whom we love dearly, even when they mock us. Because even though it hurts, we know they care.
And we think there are people out there who are way better at blogging than we are. Better at thinking, better at writing and better at smelling [good]. We have our favourite blogs, and we often wish that we could work with some of these people.
But wishing won't make it so. So we write this open letter to our favorite blogger—Jonathan from Copper and Blue. This guy writes every single day, sometimes twice. Robin Brownlee once called it "important, must read stuff." Has he ever said something that nice about our own Wanye Gretz? No, he once noted that "Wanye Gretz has shit for brains."
And so, in the absence of having any better ideas on how to do this we formally ask: "Jonathan from Copper and Blue, will you join us? We have a shiny new website coming, we have candy and our moms say that we clean up good when we're forced to leave our rat-infested apartments to steal moonshine from homeless people."
Hungrily yours, The OilersNation
Good choice. Jonathan's blog has joined Lowetide, Battle of Alberta and mc79hockey as the must reads of the Oilogosphere. (IOF would be there too if updated more frequently)
July 16 2008, 11:45AM
Holy Shit! That would be awesome! You guys are both great, and it would be sweet to see Copper and Blue join the scrum
I have never been to his site, but I like all the comments he leaves on here.
Do it Jon!
Cool! Do it Jon!
I see you left OilersNation off your must read list.
I hope this doesn't mean that OilersNation is going all serious.
There is a nice mix of concrete Oilers info (Brownlee) and asinine ramblings (everyone else).
Or is that a nice mix of inane Oilers speculation (Brownlee) and globally significant ponderings (everyone else).
I dunno, it's one of the two....
Oh hells no we aren't going serious. I don't plan on burndening my mind with "real facts" or "accurate statistics."
We think that Copper and Blue would fit nicely into our overall site. Brownlee with the inside scoop, Jonathan with the independant analysis, and me - playing the tamborine naked down Jasper Avenue wearing nothing but an old Joffrey Lupul Jersey.
"Asinine ramblings" - that brings a tear of joy to our one working eye!
Provided Jonathan responds of course.
I can't wait to see the shiny new site!
Oilersnation is a nice site, but the lack of RSS feeds means it's not on my "must read" list.
Well, considering I posted all of 9 minutes after the original post, it's fairly safe to assume I check up on OilersNation frequently. No slight intended!!
Well, with such a gracious invitation, what could I possibly say?
Then I say that picture of Shawn Horcoff with a heart around it, and decided that this site has some good things going for it.
But I have a demand. One, singular, solitary, demand. If I am to write for this site, it must do something for me:
I want to see a picture of Marc-Andre Bergeron in Oilers silks displayed somewhere on this site for the remainder of the off-season.
Why? Because he's representative of the little guy. In fact, he is a little guy. I will give you some suggestions; any of these will be fine:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/022v8CS72q2Hl/610x.jpg - dominating Henrik Zetterberg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0auA9bZ6lF44N/610x.jpg - crunching Mike Fisher
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00N1dn86Pld8x/610x.jpg - upending Dustin Penner
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08xq6zJdrP1FH/340x.jpg - looking heavenward, thanking God for his awesomeness.
To quote the great Michael Scott: You have one week.
Jonathan: Cut the short guy chip on the shoulder routine and don't make demands that Wanye post a pic of mistake-prone runt Marc-Andre Bergeron -- he's pathetic enough already.
As for me? You're OK for an ham-and egger with no journalism background, but let's not get carried away just because these simpletons insist on courting you like a horny 17-year-old looking to get some on prom night. I got your boxcar stats right here, pal.
Jonathan: Cut the short guy chip on the shoulder routine and don't make demands that Wanye post a pic of mistake-prone runt Marc-Andre Bergeron — he's pathetic enough already.
Who, as pictured above, DOMINATED Henrik Zetterberg. For one second, in all fairness, but that's still better than Matt Greene's record.
As for me? You're OK for an ham-and egger with no journalism background, but let's not get carried away just because these simpletons insist on courting you like a horny 17-year-old looking to get some on prom night. I got your boxcar stats right here, pal.
Does the Edmonton Sun actually count as a journalism background, Robin? I mean sure, it is technically a newspaper, but come on...
Does the Edmonton Sun actually count as a journalism background, Robin? I mean sure, it is technically a newspaper, but come on…
Oh snap. Yeah Robin, that just happend.
Jonathan: Please forgive me if don't cut and paste a copy of my resume here, but I'll happily forward it to you by e-mail for approval.
If you deem my credentials acceptable in spite of the six years I spent at The Sun, just drop Wanye and the guys a note that I have your blessing and I'll keep contributing what little I have to offer to ON.
I know talking to actual players, general managers and agents during the 24 I've spent writing for a living years doesn't count for much, but if you give me a chance I promise to do my best. If that's OK with you.
Jonathan: And one other thing. Ken Campbell, who happens to be a veteran writer who is widely respected in the business, promises that if you don't tell him how and what to write and imply that he's some kind of dummy like you did in that BS cheapshot you took at him, he won't tell you how to weld.
Oh, that's not necessary, Robin. Your word that you'll do your best is good enough for me.
Jonathan: And one other thing. Ken Campbell, who happens to be a veteran writer who is widely respected in the business, promises that if you don't tell him how and what to write and imply that he's some kind of dummy like you did in that BS cheapshot you took at him, he won't tell you how to weld.
That seems fair. I'll also avoid taking shots at Glen Sather, who happens to be a veteran general manager who is widely respected in the business, for signing Dmitri Kalinin to a 2.1 -million dollar contract or Wade Redden to a 6-year, 39-million dollar contract with a no move clause, just because they're both bad signings.
And since we're talking about Campbell, I like a lot of his points on a lot of different issues; he's hardly Tony Gallagher. In this case, though, the idea that signing a player to an overpaying offer sheet drives up contracts is ridiculous; I'd go on, but I did notice you took care not to argue the point I actually made.
Jonathan: I took "care" not to argue the point? Got me. No, I didn't bother. And really, why should I?
To quote the great Michael Scott: You have one week
Sounds like a done deal...cooool
July 16 2008, 10:58PM
Keep it up fellas, it's like Lowe and Burkie with intelligence added to the recipe.
Pure Gold Gents!
Jonathan: I took "care" not to argue the point? Got me. No, I didn't bother. And really, why should I?
Because neither of us is particularly educated in the fields of game theory or economics and it would give you a rare chance to be an amateur at something?
RobinB to Jonathan "Hey kid..this could be the start of a beautiful friendship."
mrzael: That, or the prized recruit -- assuming I give the website guys the OK to let him write here -- gets a thumb in the eye socket if he doesn't figure out what's what and who's who in a hurry.
Robin, Jonathan does have a point which I haven't seen any MSM guy address. No matter the contracts offered, the players will end up with exactly the same percentage of the pie at the end of the day. Who cares how it is distributed? Have any MSM guys even browsed through the CBA? Why is this argument not worth bothering with? If Jonathan does a shitty welding job ;), and I'm a paying customer, you're damn sure he's going to hear about it from me no matter how long he's been on the job or how good his past work is. Why are journalists any different?
ooohh..and I thought Big Brother was good last night.
Boondock: Do you really think Jonathan has a point that no MSM guy has addressed or is it more likely you just haven't read it? Likewise, your question about whether any MSM media guys have even browsed the CBA? What do you think? I'm guessing they have. And it's not a question of whether the argument is worth bothering with, it's a question of how much time I'm going to spend debating somebody who (in the Campbell reference) comes in with the premise he's amused by hockey columnists because they almost always get things wrong. Finally, questioning arguments or taking issue with blatant errors or ommisions and flawed logic is fair game, but it's just as grating to MSM guys to have "bloggers" and fans suggest they're stupid and naive as it is to the same bloggers and fans when MSM guys are ignorant enough to dismiss the possibility that many of them have something to offer.
July 17 2008, 09:48AM
Jon: please don't join ON. They don't have RSS feeds.
And it's not a question of whether the argument is worth bothering with, it's a question of how much time I'm going to spend debating somebody who (in the Campbell reference) comes in with the premise he's amused by hockey columnists because they almost always get things wrong.
I'm amused becaue this specific argument has been made repeatedly, even by good hockey writers, and it bears rebutting, not because "hocket writers almost always get things wrong".
It's an inaccurate assertion, and it's healthy to question it, especially given how widespread an assertion it is. Conventional wisdom that's wrong needs to be called out, and the biggest source of my amusement is that otherwise bright, knowledgeable people make the same mistake solely because it's conventional wisdom.
As for not debating the point based on my tone, that seems a little thin-skinned, but it's certainly your prerogative.
1- thank you for contributing to this website. I appreciate your insite and first hand knowledge of the team and the league. 2- i found blogs like lowetide and copper and blue through the interweb and i have really enjoyed the breakdowns and in depth analysis that is being done on these sites. generally speaking i find myself wanting more after reading a column or opinion piece about rumors and inuendo in the local newspapers. i am not sure if it is an editorial decision on the part of the newspapers but i think that there is obviously a market for a different style of reporting than what is given in the MSM.
i read your blog daily. whether you join up with ON or not i will continue to do so.
this line between MSM and bloggers is bullshit. the line is being blurred constantly with writers (such as Robin) crossing over to a different media source. it is not your job to decide who is "allowed" or qualified to blog or write their opinions. if dickheads like Ekland keep writing their crap then other dickheads will keep reading it. let the consumer decide what they want to read and stop with the infighting. in a few years its all going to be the same anyway.
Brownlee says:
"it's just as grating to MSM guys to have "bloggers" and fans suggest they're stupid and naive as it is to the same bloggers and fans when MSM guys are ignorant enough to dismiss the possibility that many of them have something to offer."
Uhh... the only difference is MSM guys GET PAID BY the bloggers and the fans. Brownlee sounds like a player who thinks the fans who pay to see him play shouldn't be allowed to boo him.
Why is Brownlee being so pissy? Is someone thinking of giving his paycheque to Jonathon?
I laughed when Brownlee tried to pull rank: 'I know Wayne Gretzky. I'm a big shot. I'm the Edward R. Murrow of the Oilers- of Alberta even! You're just a welder. I'm gonna thumb you in the eye and tell the web-guys not to hire you.'
I tell you what, you phone Wayne, ask him to tell us all how great you are, and see if he phones you back...
Just to make things clear- I'm not a welder. I'm an instrument technician.
Believe me when I say that the skills required for welding are completely different than the ones required for what I do.
My friend is a welder - don't diss my buddy......... :-)
Matt: You're right. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- there's lots of good information and opinion to be had outside of the MSM. There's room for both.
Kris: Congratulations on establishing an unofficial and laugh-out-loud new low for comprehension skills. My reference was to Wanye Gretz, our in-house master of many thoughts bizarre, NOT Wayne Gretzky.
Apparently, this whole schtick has gone right over your pointy little head. Next time, I'll have our ON Instant Label Generator produce one of those disclaimers -- "THE FOLLOWING IS JUST A JOKE" kind of thing -- to avoid confusion.
My friend is a welder - don't diss my buddy………
I work with a half-dozen welders, and have worked with better than 20 in my 3 years at my current job. I've seen some very good ones, and like most who rise to the top in their profession, they're generally bright, capable people.
I do, however, know that English skills aren't a prerequisite for the job, and in BC, neither is Grade 11. Like I've said, there are certainly bright guys out there, but it isn't really an academic trade.
Haha! And here I was going to say that Robin and Jon were laying it on a bit thick.
Nice juxtaposition I think. Robin with the veteran inside scoop, Jonathan with the independent view and Wayne with the asinine ramblings.
BTW - from what I understand, WAYNE would almost surely call back to say how good Robin is. You do know that he's (Robin) been an institution in the dressing room for quite some time, right?
David S: It is true that I've been in an institution for some time, but I'm feeling better now and will be out soon.


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The Emery County Care and Rehabilitation Center is adding another service at their facility. Director Larry Friis said the center is setting aside 10 beds as a community service for High Function Skilled residents. A High Function Skilled Resident is one who will live relatively independent but who has need of medication monitoring. An example of this would be one who has diabetes or some other illness that needs to be monitored for control, tracking and medication dispensing. Sometimes it is not more than reminding one to have medications at appropriate times of the day. The High Functioning Skilled Patient will receive three meals a day, bathing facilities and laundry services along with other conveniences as needed.
These 10 beds will be available for private pay individuals with an average cost of approximately $85 per day or $2,550 a month.
Friis said, "The south wing will be open for this service. This will be for private pay individuals who will be able to personalize their rooms. A resident will be able to bring their own television, furniture, pictures, or other items that will be conducive to personal comfort. There is desk space available for computers," said Friis.
These rooms offer some private showers and we are ready to accept patients now. "We offer these rooms to those individuals who want some independent living, but who need some care also. They will be free to come and go from the facility and can maintain a personal vehicle if they wish.
"These independent people can still drive and do things on their own, such as attend doctors appointments or do other activities and we will be here to assist them as needed.
"For instance, someone might choose our facility because they have been here recovering after a hospital event and decide they like the extra help. The help here makes residents more comfortable. In this situation they could decide to move to our independent living wing and also bring a spouse with them, if they choose. Sometimes spouses cannot care for their loved one at home and we can help with that too. Our facility can be used for those who need help and who might be partially dependent on others. We can help spouses maintain some independence as they help care for their loved one.
"Some couples may decide they like the extra help with setting up doctors appointments and having their meals cooked and they might enjoy the laundry service. We can do all those things and provide medical care as needed. This allows freedom for the residents, but also a level of care they won't receive at home. This is a service not being offered in Ferron. We are accepting residents now. We encourage citizens to come and have a look at our facility," said Friis.

subset: commoncrawl


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Tahari Calypso Sandal
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GiGi Brazilian Bikini Wax Microwave Kit
- Overview
- Brazilian Bikini Wax Microwave Formula, 8 oz (226 grams)
- Pre-Hon Lotion, 2 fl oz (59 ml)
- Pre-Epilation Oil, 2 fl oz
- Wax Off, 2 oz (59 grams)
- Slow Grow, 2 fl oz (59 ml)
- 5 Small Acuu Edge Applicators
- 5 Large Acuu Edge Applicators
- Features
- Remove the cap and plastic disc. Place jar on a microwave safe plate in the center of microwave. Heating time varies with each microwave. Heat for 30 seconds. Carefully break the surface of the wax with a large applicator. Continue to heat in intervals of 15 seconds until you can stir the wax so it takes on a thick, honey or caramel-like consistency. Do not heat longer than a total of 1 minute, wax may become too hot to apply. Remove jar from microwave carefully. If jar is uncomfortable to touch, let cool in the microwave before removing. Test the wax temperature before applying to bikini area.
- Cleanse area to be epilated with Pre-Hon Lotion. Pat dry with tissue.
- Apply Pre-Epilation Oil sparingly to area to be epilated.
- With applicator, apply a thick coat of wax in the direction of hair growth.
- Allow wax to cool on skin until it becomes soft and pliable, approximately 30 seconds.
- Hold skin taut, pull wax off with one quick motion in the opposite direction of hair growth keeping hardened wax as close to the skin as possible. Never re-apply wax to epilated area.
- Immediately apply firm pressure to epilated area with the cushion of your fingers or palm of hand to clean skin.
- Apply Wax Off liberally on treated area to remove any wax residue and to moisturize skin.
- To maintain epilation results longer, smooth on Slow Grow everyday after showering to inhibit hair growth.
- About the brand
A complete hard wax kit specifically designed to remove coarse and stubborn hair from the bikini area. This hard wax formulation is fast, efficient and gentle and requires no strips for removal.
Kit Contains:
Created by beauty expert Ligia "GiGi" Colombo, GiGi professional hair removal systems have been revolutionizing waxing and skin care for over 30 years. The GiGi collection includes microwave waxes, shave gel, bleaching creams, depilatories and everything else you need to keep your skin bare.
And Then I Opened The Boxi was so excited an did my research as much as I could and I seen that many approved of this product for the low price and how well it works. but here is where my problem lies.. I opened my box ready to get started. not only could i not get the top off but the container holdin the wax is cracked. now to read the instructions.. wait what the?! is this Spanish? where is the English I mean maybe I'm jus overlooking it. I'll be back later. oh wait I think I found it on the side of my cracked wax containerAug 29, 2011NickaHAIR TYPEBlack / Thick or Coarse Hair
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Best Result With A Little Help!I bought this wax, awhile ago n I have used it ever since! IF U HAVE WAX LEFT ON UR SKIN N CAN'T GET OFF, JUST SIMPLY USE BABY OIL TO REMOVE IT!!! N for best result and to maximize hair removal use baby powder on the areas in which u wish to wax! Enjoy!Mar 11, 2011LalaHAIR TYPEThick or Coarse Hair
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Unbelievably Awful - Useless!I am floored by the good reviews of this stuff! It is unequivocably awful. Stringy, impossible to apply, and worse than that, it simply doesn't work. Left most of the hair behind. Tried it repeatedly with the same results. The instructions are worse than useless and maybe I did something wrong, but I don't think so. I think this product is just cheap crap.Mar 11, 2011Leslie K.
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Don't Waste Your MoneyAfter careful consideration....and reading everyone's reviews....I should have just saved my money. I have tried this product 3 different times and followed the directions very carefully. It doesn't get very much of the hair at all. You would have to go over the same area several times before getting it all and that would irritate your skin way too much. Not only that, but it is sooo time consuming. I will definitely pay to have a professional take care of all my hair removal needs!Mar 3, 2011Valerie / USA
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All I Can Say Is... Wow!!!So I was alittle hesitant, as some people were burnt by the wax, etc. I read the reviews and still wanted to try it. afterall, so many people are still raving about it. just FYI I do understand what people are saying about the wax "expoding" when trying to mix the wax. I accidently microwaved the wax longer than instructed... about 3 minutes and took it out, and pushed the wax in to mix it and it splashed. instruction clearly told me not to microwave it longer than a minute... anyway, it also stated not to use the wax till it was honey like consistency so I waited to wax. results were better than professional/ salon. I LOVE it. my results were cleaner, not as painful. SERIOUSLY! I am going to repurchase. the best wax i've tried EVER.Feb 16, 2011Kate / SF CAHAIR TYPEBlack / Normal Hair
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Finally!This is a great alternative to salon waxing! Probably the equivalent to the 'sensitive' or 'painless' option that they give you in the salon. Mind you, it's not completely painless, (that would be too good to be true), but from my waxing experiences, and compared to other do-it-at-home-Brazilians that I've tried, this is the least painful of them all. Messy - yes, but worth every penny. Best to line the floor with newspaper or something so as not to ruin it with dried wax that takes forever to come off (learned my lesson the hard way). Might be a little difficult for first timers - well, more than difficult if you've never had a wax before. It certainly does take some getting used to. But bottom line is, it works great and is absolutely doable yourself and for the price, you save yourself a lot of money in comparison to professional waxing. I should probably do what many of the other reviewers have suggested and purchase wax strips to go with this, but I've been lazy. It might be a good idea. You can still do it without them, as I have many a time, and achieve great results!Feb 12, 2011Heidi
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World Of WaxingRead reviews and this product was pretty impressive.
Best do it at home waxing ever used.Feb 3, 2011Krista
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It Works Great Just Don't Over Heat Or Underheat Itif the wax does not come off your skin just use a waxing strip place it on the spot and press it on the wax and pull it off. the wax will come right off. if it doesn't just put some more warm wax on the area and take it off with the strips.Oct 8, 2010Betty D. / Alpha Omega
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Great!The ladies who gave themselves second degree burns with this product were just clumsy/not careful. You can't just jab at hot wax you've just microwaved, even if it does have a hard layer on top of it. I've used lots of different kinds of hard wax and this one was great. The best part was the number of applicators it came with, as well as the oils and creams for before & after care.Sep 22, 2010Ally / Canada
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InterestingInteresting, so that's how products/gel" rel="nofollow">http://www.nads.com.au/nadsproducts/gel">hair removal of this product works. It sure was effective.Sep 9, 2010Hyun C. / PhilippinesHAIR TYPEBlack
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Dave Mustaine recently took a few minutes to show LoudGuitars.com his jam-room gear on this year's edition of Gigantour, the critically acclaimed package festival founded in 2005 by Mustaine. Check out the clip below.
Bram Teitelman of Metal Insider recently conducted an interview with David Ellefson. "When we met Megadeth bassist David Ellefson last week at Vevo headquarters, he was about to do something he hasn't done much before: play a three song acoustic set with the band in front of a small audience.
The second annual Monster Energy's Aftershock Festival has expanded to a full weekend in 2013. The biggest weekend in rock to ever hit the capital of California will take place September 14 and 15 at Discovery Park near downtown Sacramento, CA. Northern California's biggest summer rock 'n' roll festival will feature two main stages, with appearances from Avenged Sevenfold, Korn, Megadeth, Shinedown, Papa Roach, Volbeat, and many others.
Markos Papadatos of Digital Journal has posted the following review of Gigantour's stop in New York City, NY. "While Newsted and Black Label Society were noteworthy enough, Megadeth proved to be the true star of the show with their high-energy production that included laser lights and big screens.
Agah Bahari for Live In Limbo has posted the following review of Gigantour 2013's last stop in Toronto, ON. "Following the performance by this year's line-up, Newsted, Hellyeah, Device, and Black Label Society, Megadeth stepped on the stage of Molson Canadian Amphitheatre at exactly 9:10PM, as the headliner of the 5th Gigantour, to perform for the packed venue of passionate enthusiasts and hardcore metal-heads.
A new show has been added to Black Sabbath's "Reunion World Tour" of Latin America featuring special guests, Megadeth in October. The bands will perform at Esplanada do Mineirao in Belo Horizonte, Brazil on October 15. Tickets go on sale to the general public on August 19 via Tickets For Fun (www.ticketsforfun.com.br).
Jeanette LeBlanc for BeyondTheWatch.com has posted the following review of Gigantour's stop in Toronto, ON. "On Sunday August 11th, metal heads gathered from all around the GTA at the Molson Canadian Amphitheatre in Toronto for a day filled with metal legends. Gigantour is an annual tour headlined by Dave Mustaine's Megadeth...
Former Metallica bassist Jason Newsted performed the classic Metallica song "Phantom Lord" with Megadeth last night (Sunday, August 11) at the final show of this summer's Gigantour in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Check out fan-filmed video footage of his appearance below.
It's been one hell of a summer for rock and metal fans, as Dave Mustaine put together quite the bill for Gigantour 2013. The Megadeth-led touring festival featured special guests Black Label Society, Device, HELLYEAH, and Newsted. With the final date now played, Noisecreep.com asks you which of these acts was your favorite Gigantour performer of the summer. Vote for your favorite Gigantour act in the Readers Poll at Noisecreep.com.
French webmagazine Hard Force's "Metal XS" recently conducted an interview with Dave Mustaine. Dave discusses Megadeth's relationship with the French fans, "Super Collider", his new record label and more. You can now watch the chat below.
Tweets from @Megadeth/megadeth-dave-mustaine


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Speech Communication Career Facts
A degree in Speech Communication can lead to a career in:
- teaching
- broadcasting
- speech or language pathology
- audiology
- journalism
- performing arts
However, the value of speech and communication cannot be overestimated in its importance in any successful career. Few professions exist in which effective speaking and listening are not highly prized. Power belongs to those who know how to communicate, and poor communication skills are a serious handicap to anyone. Those who communicate the best, no matter what their profession, succeed the most.
Classes in speech communication involve speaking, thinking, organization skills, group dynamics, creativity, writing and interacting.
Communication, Media and the Arts Department
Gannon Bldg, Room 131
Phone: (517) 483-1546
Additional contact information »


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WATERTOWN, MASS.A 19-year-old college student wanted in the Boston Marathon bombings was taken into custody Friday evening after a manhunt and intense standoff that left the city virtually paralyzed and his older brother and accomplice dead.
Police announced via Twitter that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was in custody. They later tweeted, "CAPTURED!!! The hunt is over. The search is done. The terror is over. And justice has won. Suspect in custody."
Tsarnaev's brother, 26-year-old Tamerlan, was killed early Friday in a furious attempt to escape police. Tsarnaev himself was in serious condition when he was apprehended, and has been transported to a local hospital. Several officials expressed relief that Tsarnaev was captured alive.
Col. Timothy Alben with the Massachusetts State Police said at a news conference after the arrest: "We are eternally grateful for the outcome here tonight. We're exhausted folks."
An undated view of the boat in which Dzhokar Tsarnaev was believed to be hiding.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev had been hiding in a boat in a neighborhood that had been on lockdown near Boston. The crowd gathered near the scene let out a cheer when spectators saw officers clapping.
"Everyone wants him alive," said Kathleen Paolillo, a 27-year-old teacher who lives in the area.
CBS News correspondent John Miller reports a Watertown man who had been observing the lockdown came out for the first time late Friday and saw a tear in the tarp that covers his boat. He climbed up and looked inside. What he said in a later 911 call was "there's a bloody mess in there."
Three Boston police officers responded and they climbed up and looked in there and they said they saw somebody moving. They backed away and called for tactical teams.
They said something popped up out of the tear in the tarp and opened fire and they returned fire. The incident commander then called for a ceasefire so they could set up a perimeter.
The FBI's hostage rescue team arrived and took tactical control of that scene.
Bomb techs cleared a path to the boat to make sure it wasn't a booby trapped or that there was anything waiting for them.
Boston Police Chief Edward Davis said they attempted to talk Tsarnaev out of the boat, but did not succeed.
The FBI hostage rescue teams made an entry to the boat, was able to observe the suspect still moving and pull him out of there. They confirmed he was wounded, there was a lot of blood, but that wound appears to have occurred earlier.
A Department of Justice official told CBS News no Miranda warning was given to Tsarnaev because government is invoking the public safety exception.
During a long night of violence Thursday into Friday, the brothers killed a police officer, severely wounded another officer and hurled explosives at police in a car chase and gun battle, authorities said.
The suspects were identified by law enforcement officials and family members as Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, ethnic Chechen brothers who had lived in the Dagestan region in southern Russia. They had been in the U.S. for about a decade, an uncle said.
Their uncle in Maryland, Ruslan Tsarni, pleaded on live television Friday: "Dzhokhar, if you are alive, turn yourself in and ask for forgiveness."
Authorities in Boston suspended all mass transit and warned close to 1 million people in the city and some of its suburbs to stay indoors as the hunt went on.
"We believe this man to be a terrorist," said Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis. "We believe this to be a man who's come here to kill people."
The bombings on Monday killed three people, including a student from China, and wounded more than 180, instantly raising the specter of another terrorist attack on U.S. soil.
Investigators in the Boston case have shed no light on the motive for the bombing.
State Police spokesman Dave Procopio said police realized they were dealing with the bombing suspects based on what the two men told a carjacking victim during their getaway attempt overnight.
Shortly before Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's capture, the White House said President Barack Obama has spoken by phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin about the investigation.
Obama "praised the close cooperation that the United States has received from Russia on counter-terrorism, including in the wake of the Boston attack," the White House said in a statement.
The Boston Red Sox announced that their game against the Kansas City Royals at Fenway Park tonight has been postponed. The Boston Bruins (who were to play the Pittsburgh Penguins this evening) likewise have postponed tonight's game.
Updated timeline / map of pursuit of Boston bombing suspect
The suspects were identified by law enforcement officials and family members as ethnic Chechen brothers from Dagestan, which neighbors Chechnya in southern Russia. They lived near Boston, and had been in the U.S. for about a decade after receiving asylum, an uncle said.
The two have been identified as Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, 19, of Cambridge, Mass., and his brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26. They are legal permanent residents of the U.S.
CBS News confirmed that Dzhokhar is an American citizen, having been naturalized on September 11, 2012.
He is reportedly a student at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth and lived in a dorm there. Correspondent Anthony Mason reports that Tsarnaev was seen on campus yesterday afternoon where he spoke with a friend, who said there was nothing out of the ordinary in their conversation.
Tamerlan -- the suspect seen in FBI photos released Thursday as wearing the black hat -- was wounded in an exchange of gunfire with police during last night's pursuit. He was captured and rushed to Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, where he died at 1:35 a.m. Doctors said he had gunshot wounds and a blast injury. The wounds were throughout the trunk of the man's body, CBS Station WBZ reported.
Ruslan Tsarni, an uncle of the suspects, told CBS Station WBZ "it absolutely devastated me," upon learning that his nephews had been named a suspect in the Marathon bombing. "It's not comprehendable, in our family."
Alvi Tsarni, another uncle of the suspects, told CBS News said he was shocked about learning news of his nephews. "It's not possible. My nephews can't do this stuff, there's no way," he said.
In Toronto, the suspects' aunt, Maret Tsarnev, told the CBC she was in disbelief after seeing the FBI's wanted photos this morning. "This cannot be true," she said. "If somebody wants to convince me, show me evidence. . . . I am suspicious this was staged -- this picture was staged," she said.
The MIT shooting on the Cambridge campus Thursday night was followed by gunfire and explosions in Watertown, about 10 miles west of Boston.
John Miller reports that the evening's events began with the robbery of a 7-Eleven convenience store in Cambridge. It was originally reported that the two suspects were involved in the robbery; however, a spokeswoman for the Cambridge 7-Eleven on Massachusetts Avenue told CBS News that the robbery was unrelated.
Nonetheless, when an MIT police cruiser responding to a disturbance call entered the area, the suspects apparently feared they were being targeted.
"They encounter an MIT Police Officer, and rather than see, 'Is he going to follow us? Is he going to chase us?' it appears that they came up and engaged him, killed him in his police vehicle, took off," said Miller.
The MIT officer who had been responding to report of a disturbance Thursday night was ambushed and shot multiple times, according to a statement from the Middlesex district attorney's office and Cambridge police.
The officer, who was later pronounced dead at Massachusetts General Hospital, was identified as 26-year-old Sean Collier.
The Middlesex district attorney's office said Collier was a Somerville resident who had worked at MIT since January 2012. Before that, he was a civilian employee of the Somerville Police Department.
Authorities said after the shooting, the two men rode off in a stolen police vehicle, then carjacked a man in a Mercedes-Benz, keeping him with them in the car for half an hour before releasing him at a gas station in Cambridge. The man, who was not injured, informed police of the carjackers.
The search for the vehicle led to a chase that ended in Watertown, where authorities said the suspects threw explosive devices from the car and exchanged gunfire with police at about 1 a.m. Friday. Dozens of police officers and FBI agents were in the neighborhood and a helicopter circled overhead.
A transit police officer was seriously injured during the chase, authorities said.
Officer Richard Donohue, Jr., 33, was rushed to Mount Auburn Hospital in Cambridge, where he is in critical condition, reports WBZ.


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Economic Analysis of Contract Law after Three Decades: Success or Failure?
Eric A. Posner
University of Chicago - Law School
March 1, 2002
U Chicago Law & Economics, Olin Working Paper No. 146
Law and economics has failed to produce plausible descriptive theories of contract doctrines. This paper documents these failures and suggests that they are due to a methodological problem involving the concept of transaction costs. If transaction costs refer to writing or information costs, then rational individuals would agree to complex contracts that are not in fact observed, and contract law would, for the most part, have no other function than that of specifically enforcing contracts. If transaction costs refer to limits on foreseeability and other cognitive restrictions, then law and economics assumes implausibly both that people are rational enough to allow legal rules to influence their investment and breach decisions, but not rational enough to allow legal rules to influence contractual design. Implications for normative analysis are discussed, and non-economic approaches to contract law are surveyed and criticized.
Number of Pages in PDF File: 52
Keywords: contract theory
Date posted: March 26, 2002 ; Last revised: November 16, 2011
Suggested Citation
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text: 1:24 Scale Fully Licensed Lamborghini remote controlled model car. Easy to use controls - Forward/Backward, Left/Right, Forward, Reverse and Stop. Excellent model detailing, with cool privacy windows, and working lights. Independent Suspension with alloy effect true to model rims and low profile tyres. Supplied fully assembled and ready to raceCheck stock and price


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The Puerto Stool, inspired by our own Concha dining chair. Composed of a vinyl cord seat and powder-coated steel frame. Available in Bar or counter height. Easy to clean, it will never blow over, commercial friendly, doesn't stay wet. Peferct for outdoors and In.
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Style of Design: Eclectic
Upholstery color: Purple
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Boo! Did we scare you?! Well, some of these costumes might! The Denim Therapy team rounded up their favorite Halloween photos from years past, and asked some of our favorite denim brands what their Halloween plans are too. Scroll to check out the hyper-creative, highly amusing round-up of festive fun from your resident denim experts.
"So this Halloween I am going to be a SEXY BEAR! LOL. Two years ago I was a caveman (pictured below), last year I was BRUNO in Yellow Laderhossen, no pictures of that."
Lauren and Lea, DL1961 Premium Denim (Left)
Lauren: "I am lucky enough to live in NYC's West Village, so on Halloween I can literally walk out my door and into the Greenwich Village Halloween parade. The parade has become a tradition every year for me and my friends. Since there are so many costume stores on 6th and 7th Avenues, I might have a different costume for every day of Halloween weekend this year."
Ron Poisson, designer and owner of Cult of Individuality, with his daughter Olivia, his son Tristan, and their dog Brutus (Right)
Ron: "This year unfortunately I am in China working so I'm missing being home with my family. It is always a tradition to carve pumpkins and then for me to dress up with my two kids, Olivia and Tristan, my wife, and our dog to go trick or treating around our neighborhood. I think I enjoy it more than my children!"
Ron Poisson with his family & the pumpkin carving ritual (below)
"We had a pumpkin decorating contest. This is our 1st place winner. Georgia May Jagger-lantern!"
Raffael, DT's Photographer (left) and Renee, DT Manager of Operations (right)
Raffael: "I was a moustacho-wearing Soviet solider. This year I'm going to be Cheburashka, a Russian stop-motion animation character from 1969."
Renee: "We were trailer trash (the 5 of us took over the party)."
Michelle Christina, DT Editorial Director
"I was a DIY Bollywood dancer last year, but I made my costume last second and by the middle of the night my denim cut-offs were showing. Oops!"
Sarah, DT Editorial Contributor
"My costume this year is going to be Bedelia Grantham from the 1982 horror flop Creepshow. Costume includes: ratty blonde wig, black sun hat, black cape, black pants, bottle of whiskey, and a dinner length cigarette holder.
My favorite past year's costume was when my sister and I decided to be topical, and she was Kevin Federline (wearing my dad's clothes and a goatee drawn on with eyeliner) and I was a smoking, pimpled, and pregnant Britney Spears."
J. Sandoval, DT Editorial Contributor
"I was a "vampire rocker" (don't ask). On a cool note I was wearing a white denim vest with an embroidered skull—fancy! This year I'm planning on being a gothic mad hatter."
DT Editorial Interns Brie (Left), and Elyssa (Right)
Brie: "I just managed to get my hands on an old Halloween pic (Belle), then my (tentative) costume idea for this year is Jane Lane from Daria."
Elyssa: "I was the Spice Girls with my friends—Ginger Spice!"
Judy Yang, Reco Jeans Intern
"This year, I'll be dressing up as a princess inspired by SNSD's new album's concept as princesses. I'm really excited since I love dressing up!~ Last year I dressed up as Minnie Mouse, which was really fun. I'm also looking forward to everyone's costumes. Hope everyone will have a fun and safe Halloween!"
Paul Pyo, Doctrine Jeans
" I am planning to dress up as either Bruce Lee in his yellow jumpsuit or as Elf in the Will Ferrell movie. This isn't a picture of me but it's a picture of my daughter, Kenzie, and my dog, Lucky, in their panda costumes from last Halloween."
DT's founder, Francine, couldn't find a pic to share, but she'll be dressing as a cowgirl. Perhaps a post-Halloween post is in order?
Remember, if you trip and fall while you're trick'or'treating, we'll take care of that rip in your jeans! Learn more about Denim Therapy's repair services.
—DT Staff
Tags: costume ideas, Cult of Individuality, Denim Repair, Denim Therapy, DL1961 Premium Denim, doctrine jeans, Georgia May Jagger-lantern, halloween, Hudson Jeans, reco jeans


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Much like Halas Hall, the Bears' offense remains under construction.
Bears coach Marc Trestman said Thursday that he and his assistant coaches continued to work on creating a new playbook for the offense. Once that happened, Trestman said, Jay Cutler and his teammates could start studying the plays.
Trestman said he had spoken with about two-thirds of the players on the Bears' roster in preparation for next season. Trestman said he spoke on the phone for with Brian Urlacher for more than 30 minutes about the franchise and about football in general, but he was noncommittal when it came to Urlacher's future with the team.
As construction crews worked outside to expand Halas Hall, the Bears introduced each of their new assistant coaches, including offensive coordinator Aaron Kromer and defensive coordinator Mel Tucker. The only vacancy that remains on Trestman's staff is for a wide receivers coach.
Although the offense will be renovated, the defense likely will not be overhauled. Tucker said he planned to maintain a 4-3 defensive scheme similar to what was in place during Lovie Smith and Rod Marinelli's tenure with the team.
-Tom Musick


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Howard Simon's Blog
Marrone hits home run with defensive coordinator
by Howard Simon
posted Jan 10 2013 12:00AM
I'll admit I was scratching my head when the news broke that Doug Marrone was bringing Nathaniel Hackett with him from Syracuse to be the Bills Offensive Coordinator.
4 years as an offensive quality control coach(the lowest rung on the NFL coaching ladder) doesn't qualify as thorough NFL experience in my opinion.
Marrone really didn't say much in his introductory press conference but one nugget he did throw out there was that he would be looking for coordinators with "thorough NFL experience" especially on the defensive side of the ball.
He followed through with that emphasis on the defensive side of the ball. The skepticism I had with the Hackett hire was trumped by my excitement over the selection of Mike Pettine as the Defensive Coordinator.
It appears there is a belief around the NFL that the Bills defense was not as bad as the statistics would indicate. Perhaps the issue was coaching and schemes.
Some of the coaches who interviewed for the Bills job were interested in part because they felt there was enough talent on the roster that it wouldn't be a massive rebuilding project.
Pettine, who turned down a contract extension from the New York Jets early last season, could have waited things out. There are a number of teams that have yet to hire head coaches and therefore a number of staffs have yet to be built. But the 46 year old Pennsylvania native jumped on the Bills offer when Marrone called.
Pettine has been around some very successful defenses thanks to his relationship with Rex Ryan. Say what you want about Ryan, his loud personality, his bold guarantees and his somewhat creepy Mark Sanchez tattoo, the man knows how to build and coach a defense.
Pettine, who was the first assistant hired by Ryan when he got the job with the Jets, has spent the last 10 years working with Ryan. He was the Jets Defensive Coordinator for the last 4 seasons and coached with Ryan in Baltimore the 6 seasons prior to that.
In all 4 years with Gang Green, they boasted a top 10 defense and while Ryan was the mastermind, he gradually gave more responsibility to Pettine who ended up calling the defensive plays in 2011 and shared them with Ryan this past season. The Ravens defenses, with Pettine serving as outside linebackers coach, were in the top 6 from 2005-2008.
Even though Pettine doesn't have Ryan's personality, he still gained the respect of the Jets players and he shares Ryan's aggressive, attack philosophy when it comes to defensive schemes.
"He's the smartest defensive coach I've been around," Defensive Tackle Mike DeVito told the NY Daily News after the paper reported the possibility of Pettine leaving after the season. "He's at another level when it comes to knowing defenses and play calling so obviously he'd be a guy that would be missed."
For those of you that thought one of Dave Wannstedt's weaknesses was the inability to make in game adjustments, one Jet believes that is one of Pettine's best assets.
"His ability to change on the fly is something that stands out to me," said safety Yeremiah Bell. "He does a good job of adjustments and seeing what other teams, how they're trying to attack us. He's right up there with the good coordinators who can, after halftime, figure out what they're trying to do." Bell is an unrestricted free agent in March and could be one of a few defensive players interested in following Pettine to Buffalo.
Devito and safety LaRon Landry will be free agents as well. Linebackers Bart Scott and Calvin Pace and safety Eric Smith might all be salary cap cuts and could be available too. Pettine is bringing Jets Assistant Defensive Backs Coach Jim O'Neil with him to Western New York. O'Neil has received some credit for helping Landry produce what turned out to be a Pro Bowl season.
In addition to his years of NFL experience, Pettine obviously has intimate knowledge of a division rival and he was part of a staff that did a better job than the Bills when it came to beating New England. In Ryan's 4 years, the Jets went 3-6 against the Patriots including a playoff win at Foxborough in the 2010 post season.
The move weakens a division opponent by taking away Ryan's right hand man and a key coach on the defensive side of the ball, the strongest part of the Jets.
One league source told WGR Marrone wanted Pettine so badly that he flew to New York right after his introductory press conference on Monday.
Pettine should also give the Bills defense some badly needed creativity. The Jets used a base 3-4 but played a 4-3 at times in games and mixed in the old Buddy Ryan "46" defense, bringing 8 men up to the line of scrimmage.
They liked to use overload blitzes, sending multiple blitzers from one side of the defense. New York also had some packages with 7 defensive backs and used a 3 safety nickel package. According to Football Outsiders, the Jets blitzed 46% of the time in 2010 and 30% in 2011. According to the Buffalo News the Bills blitzed on less than 20% of the plays last season.
One possible problem Pettine might need to address is the Bills secondary. Ryan builds his defenses from the back and puts a lot of responsibility on the corners, who need to excel in man coverage, and the safeties.
As far as the Bills corners go, Stephon Gilmore looks like he will be able to handle that challenge but there are question marks all over the remainder of the depth chart at that position. Look for the Bills to address cornerback early in the draft and perhaps in free agency.
The hiring of Pettine and the secondary friendly scheme might help the Bills convince playmaking safety Jairus Byrd to forego free agency and stick around. Perhaps Pettine will push the Bills to go after Bell or Landry when the market opens up to bolster the position.
Jim Leonhard is another name to keep in mind. The former Buffalo Bill played 3 seasons for Ryan and Pettine and boasts the football smarts that are valued in their schemes. Leonhard is with the Denver Broncos but will also be a free agent in March.
As much as we talked about quarterback this past season, and understandably so, the defense killed the Bills. Going into the 2012 season, most of us thought a vastly improved defense would help spur the Bills into a playoff spot. That might happen one year later, thanks to the presence of Mike Pettine.
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Skip to comments.Did Mary have a bunch of kids? Mary's perpetual virginity before, during and after Jesus' birth
Posted on 12/09/2012 2:05:12 PM PST by Alex MurphyEdited on 12/09/2012 5:21:35 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicbridge.com ...
Excerpted from the article:
Did Mary Have a Bunch of Kids? Mary's perpetual virginity before, during and after Jesus' birth
See related thrteads:
Immaculate Mary
Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary
Why Catholics Believe in the Immaculate Conception
Are there a lot of people worried about this? Does it matter in some way?
Not that I was there, but focusing on magic surrounding Jesus earliest days of life tends toward an adoption of the monophysite viewpoint ~ which we saw discussed in a different thread the other day.
So, back to a question I had, how far back were those early church fathers? Was it way back before development of the fullblown Trinitarian viewpoint, or after that, and are we speaking of Western Christianity or Coptic Christianity?
This particular topic is far from easy to work with.
I am not a gynecologist, but I can read.
The answer is YES.
Bible says she was a good wife to Joseph in all ways. To me that means having sex with him. Many protestants believe that James was also her son—Father was Joseph this time. There were more as well. I have no problem with Mary being a good wife and mother—She is idealized for this. The Catholics must create the Perpetual Virginity myth to keep her as a demi goddess—to attract Romans and Greeks with a fertility symbol/Woman. They seem to forget the important thing is the Message of Jesus! The wonders are not the main point—they are just confirmations of his message and divinity.
I've often wondered if her parents believed her.
Actually it started after her second child. GOD said go out upon the earth and multiply. She would be in non-compliance with Gods command and wishes. Catholics so much wish for a goddess to pray to that they are willing to go to extreme lengths to keep this tired old un-truth alive.
I'm not a Catholic but I am a Christian who believes in the virgin birth.
This talk about Mary's hymen is an insult to all Christians.
Shame on you.
Shame on you."
Thank you.
Jesus went around healing people, walked on water, brought a dead guy to life and more.
I have a hard time not believing this.
It's not limited to the Catholic Church—it is a belief among the Eastern Orthodox and other eastern Christian churches, and was held by many of the early Church Fathers (although not by all) and by some of the Protestant Reformers such as Luther and Zwingli. See the Wikipedia article on "Perpetual virginity of Mary" for numerous examples.
I only ever heard of Mary's one. I read such "on the record."
If there were more, show me the record.
The talk about Mary's intact hymen is far fro a new or modern topic. It was considered an essential belief and doctrine by early church fathers.
All Christians believe that Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ and was a virgin when she bore him.
Discussing the status of her hymen over her life is disgusting. I know you're only doing it to attack the Catholic Church but you've insulted more than just Catholics.
Why don't you go back to your regular gig and attack Mormons for having their own planets and such?
Matthew 1:20-25 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
23 Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel
(which means, God with us). 24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Doesn't get more explicit than that. Joseph had sex with Mary AFTER Jesus' birth, just like any normal married couple.
Matthew 12:46-50 46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 48 But he replied to the man who told him, Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
Matthew 13:55-58 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things? 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household. 58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him.
Galatians 1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
Sorry, my error. The haters all blur together at times.
If you had to pay taxes to Rome you may not want all records.
Those who should be ashamed are those who perpetuate and even expound on the myth that a bunch of early Church Fathers could pretend they're gynecologists and understood the birthing process of Mary 300 years earlier. This is beyond the scope of what is recorded in scripture and people always gets themselves into trouble when they add to what is written.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
The Protoevangelium of James (c. A.D. 120) states that Joseph was a widower who already had a family and thus was willing to become the guardian of a dedicated or consecrated virgin. His children would have been step brothers and sisters of Jesus.
Peace be with you
I do t know if Mary had a bunch of kids, she did have some with her husband after Jesus.
Please see Scripture posted in post 18. If you need more than the word of God, I'm sorry, there's simply no way to accommodate you.
Ah, a voice of sanity.
That sadly, will not go unchallenged.
I have to agree. "Conceived of a virgin" means just that and the discussion should end there.
That bit of nonsense?
Anyone who believes that will believe anything.
That explains a LOT.
The answer is absolutely "NO!"
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Using typology, when the Ark of the Old Covenant was touched — the person died.
Joseph and Mary agreed to live lives of mutual respect and celibacy. Mary did not have any other children. Do You read about the births of other children in the Bible?
No. There was no word for "cousin" and so the word "brothers" was used in the ancient language.
To repeat — if anyone had tried to touch Mary in a sexual way — they would have died.
Even Luther, Zwingli and Calvan agree with the doctrine of perpetual virginity. Please read up on it on the links I provided in the previous post.
Why dont you go back to your regular gig and attack Mormons for having their own planets and such?
You must have me confused with someone else. Besides, the article comes verbatim from a Catholic apologetics site. Take it up with the Catholics if you don't like discussing apologetics from a medical standpoint.
Even in the Bible today, St. Paul addresses communities with the words, "Brothers and sisters."
We can't even find Obama's birth certificate, why can we find those from 2,000 years ago?
Perhaps some modern Evangelists don't know that most of the early reformers including Martin Luther, Wesley, and Calvin, believed in Mary's perpetual virginity. These reformers are considered scriptural scholars(1) by modern Evangelicals. Yet despite being the founders of the reform, their views on this issue are in complete contrast to modern Evangelical thought. These reformers had no problem with scriptural references to Jesus' "brothers" while maintaining their conviction that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth. Max Thurian (not a Catholic) says "In regard to the Marian doctrine of the Reformers, we have already seen how unanimous they are in all that concerns Mary's holiness and perpetual virginity . . ."(1963). The Early Christians of the first centuries also had this take on Mary's virginity.
The idea that Mary had other children first surfaced from a guy named Helvidius around 380 A.D. and it caused quite a stir because no one held that belief at the time. Jerome, responded with a treatise called On the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary. Jerome had access to much documentation from the early Church and he cited earlier well known Christian writers such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr. Helvidius was unable to come up with a reply. His theory died and lay dormant for over 1500 years until it recently resurfaced among modern Evangelicals.
In Scripture, we see many references to Jesus as Son of Mary but never do we see a reference to anyone else as Mary's literal son or daughter. The gospel account of 12-year-old Jesus lost in the temple does not mention siblings (Lk 2:42) nor does Jesus appear to have any blood brothers at the end of his life. Otherwise, He would have entrusted his mother to the care of his brother instead of the disciple John. (Jn 19:26-27) In Mark 3:20, "they went to take charge of him, for they said, 'He is out of his mind.'" In Jewish tradition the younger brothers would never give advice to an elder brother. It would make more sense for older cousins to give Jesus advice than younger brothers.
When Jesus stays in the Temple at 12 years old, there is no mention of Jesus' brothers or other children of Mary.(Lk 2:41-51). Jews used no birth control so if Mary was having sex it is likely Jesus would have had brothers by then. Jewish parents did not have to wait until they had a second son before they called a child "first born" because in Jewish law the first baby was always called "firstborn" regardless of whether or not there were any brothers. At the foot of the cross, Jesus hands Mary to the disciple John, if Jesus had brothers, He would have handed Mary to his brothers, not a disciple.(Jn 19:25-28).
Throughout the Bible, the term "brethren" (Adelphos) is freely used. For example, in 2 Kings 10:13-14, there is a reference to the forty-two "brethren" of King Ochozias. In Genesis 14:14, Lot is called Abraham's "brother" but Genesis 11:27 tells us that Haran is the father of Lot and Haran is a brother with Abraham's brother. That makes Abraham the uncle of Lot, and shows us another example of non-siblings being called brothers.
The well-known Protestant linguistic reference An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W.E. Vine, defines Adelphos as follows:
Adelphos: denotes a brother, or near kinsman; in the plural, a community based on identity of origin or life. It is used of: 1) male children of the same parents . . . ; 2) male descendants of the same parents, Acts 7:23,26; Hebrews 7:5; 3) people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17,22; Romans 9:3 . . . ; 4) any man, a neighbour, Luke 10:29; Matthew 5:22, 7:3; 5) persons united by a common interest, Matthew 5:47; 6) persons united by a common calling, Revelation 22:9; 7) mankind, Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:17; 8) the disciples, and so, by implication, all believers, Matthew 28:10; John 20:17; 9) believers, apart from sex, Matthew 23:8; Acts 1:15; Romans 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Revelation 19:10 (the word 'sisters' is used of believers, only in 1 Timothy 5:2).
{Vine, W.E., An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1940 (four-volumes-in-one ed.), vol.1, pp.154-155}
When I was playing music in a Fundamentalist Church, every man was referred to as "brother." They called me "Brother David." Nowadays, Bible Christians refer to everyone in the Church as "brother" and "sister"- which was totally cool with me. Even Catholic monastic orders call everyone "brother" (i.e., Brother John)
A couple of years ago a huge archeological discovery gave the world the "James Ossuary" which said "...James brother of Jesus." It was in Newsweek magazine and the Evangelical press covered the find extensively as proof that Catholics were wrong about Mary's perpetual virginity. The person who discovered the ossuary, Oded Golan, was arrested July 21, 2003 and appeared the next day in court, where police revealed forging equipment -- stencils, stones and yet-to-be-completed forgeries -- they said were found in his home, according to the Associated Press. The Israeli Antiquities Authority (IAA) found him to be part an extensive forgery ring that has sold millions of dollars of artifacts to museums. Since then news of the ossuary has quietly disappeared from Evangelical apologetics.2
Catholics think it is likely that they were cousins of Jesus. There was no other Greek word for cousin. Catholics think they probably lived in the same household as the Holy Family and Mary's sister, their mother. It was a common practice of the day and still is in middle eastern cultures to live with relatives. Jesus said "a prophet is not without honour in his own town, his own kin and his own house." (Mk 6:4) It is likely that the brethren were not too thrilled with the idea of their cousin being considered the Saviour. However, they did eventually see the light and were converted. They were at the Pentecost and got hit by the Holy Spirit. I bet it was a great "Holy Ghost" party! I would have loved to be there for that Spiritual jolt of tongues of fire. (Acts 1:14)
They could also be the children of Joseph from another marriage where he was a widower. Tradition places Joseph considerably older than Mary. This is found in early Church fathers writings including the Infancy Gospel of James from 300A.D. Origen mentions the Book of James (and the Gospel of Peter) as stating that the 'brethren of the Lord' were sons of Joseph by a former wife. This is the first mention of it, and shows us that the book is as old as the second century.
IX. 1 ....And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself. 2 And Joseph refused, saying: I have sons, and I am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel. And the priest said unto Joseph: Hear the Lord thy God, and remember what things God did unto Dathan and Abiram and Korah, how the earth clave and they were swallowed up because of their gainsaying. And now fear thou, Joseph, lest it be so in thine house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her to keep her for himself. And Joseph said unto Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now do I leave thee in my house, and I go away to build my buildings and I will come again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee. (Infancy Gospel of James approx. 2nd century)
In the New American Bible notes for Luke 2:7 we read:
Firstborn...is a legal description indicating that Jesus possessed the rights and privileges of the firstborn son (Gn 27; Ex 13, 2; Nm 3, 12-13; 18, 15-16; Dt 21, 15-17)
This word "Firstborn" was a very specific term in Jesus' time. Firstborns were consecrated to God. Firstborns inherited property, etc. Also in the book of Moses, there is reference to Egyptian firstborns who died during the Passover. In Biblical times, children who were the only offspring still received the important title of firstborn so that they had the rights, privileges and obligations associated with it. I was born a Canadian. That title of "Canadian" on my birth certificate gives me specific rights and privileges associated with it.
When the Archangel Gabriel told Mary she would conceive a son, she asked "How can this be since I am a Virgin." (Lk 1:33) It's an odd question given that she was about to get married. Why wouldn't she think she would have the baby in the usual way with Joseph, right after they got married? Perhaps because she knew she was to remain a virgin and have a chaste marriage with Joseph. Perhaps this had been revealed to her at an earlier time. The angel was not at all angry with her seemingly idiotic question. When Zachariah asked the same question "How will I know this is so" (Lk 1:17) regarding the birth of John the Baptist to an elderly Elizabeth, God punished him for his doubt. (Lk 1:20) But Mary wasn't doubting God. She honestly didn't know how she would have a child and remain a virgin in her marriage.
In the English language we say "I am hungry" and we say "I am human." One state of being is temporary and the other is permanent. "Being hungry" is temporary but "being human" is ongoing. Greek has two different words for the temporary and permanent states. Mary used the permanent state of the verb "I am a virgin" which meant that her virginity would be ongoing. Why didn't she use the temporary state of the verb in the phrase "I am a virgin" since she was about to be married? Catholics think she knew it would be a chaste marriage.
Evangelicals say that the idea of a marriage with no sex is bizarre. Sure. But a virgin birth and having the Saviour as your kid are also pretty out of the ordinary. Catholics think Mary and Joseph had a very special relationship. They were a very cool family. They were visited by angels, had prophetic dreams, and were running from town to town, from country to country, trying to keep from getting their only child killed. They were bringing up the Saviour who would redeem all mankind from the beginning to the end of history. Sure they were special. This was not an average Brady Bunch middle class comfy-cozy family. God had a very special plan for them and Catholics have no reason to doubt that part of that plan would include chastity. Catholics think God wanted it that way and let them know that that was his will from the outset. In that context, Mary's question "How can this be since I am (will always be) a virgin?" makes perfect sense.
Evangelicals have pointed to Mt 1:25 that says "but had no marital relations with her until she had borne son". They say it is proof that she had children after she had Jesus. The word "until" implies that an action did not take place up to a certain point. It says nothing of what happened after that point. For example, 2 Sam 6:23 says, "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until [heõs] the day of her death." This doesn't mean she had children after her death. 1
The Early Church Fathers are almost unanimous in the assertion that the birth was painless and had no loss of Mary's virginal integrity during the birth. In other words, her Hymen didn't break. St. Augustine said "Jesus passed through the womb of Mary as a ray of sun passes through glass." Pope Martin in 649 AD defined the doctrine that Mary:
This was confirmed by Pope Paul IV and many others before and after. If Jesus emerged from a sealed tomb, and passed through closed doors, surely he could pass through Mary's womb without breaking her hymen and causing her pain. If pain is the punishment of original sin and birth pangs the first punishment at the fall (Gen 3) for Eve's disobedience. It follows that Mary as the new Eve, who was obedient to God (Lk 1:38), would not have suffered giving birth to the "new Adam". If Eve came out of Adam's rib with no pain while he slept, it follows that Jesus (the new Adam) came out of Mary (the new Eve) without pain.
There is a long answer and a short answer to that. The short is that Mary became spiritual mother to disciples of Jesus at the foot of the Cross when Jesus said to her "Woman, behold your son" (Jn 19:26). As Jesus died, a sword pierced Mary's heart (Lk 2:35). That was painful. There is physical birth and Spiritual birth. For Mary the painful part of giving birth to Jesus was on Calvary, not in Bethlehem. The book of Revelation goes on to talk about the children of the woman, being those who follow Jesus. This is the Church, and its birth was painful. St. Paul had had Spiritual birth pangs
My little children, of whom I am in labour again, until Christ be formed in you. (Gal 4:19).
Labour pains are used metaphorically elsewhere in scripture (Rom 8:22, Jer 13:21, Hos 13:12-13, Mic 4:9-10). Father Terry Donahue has an in depth article on reconciling Mary's virginity with Revelation 12 here.
The following is research by Dave Armstrong www.BiblicalCatholic.org. It has quotes from early reformers and influential Evangelicals: In regard to the Marian doctrine of the Reformers, we have already seen how unanimous they are in all that concerns Mary's holiness and perpetual virginity . . .
Whatever may be the position theologically that one may take today on the subject of Mariology, one is not able to call to one's aid 'reformed tradition' unless one does it with the greatest care . . . the Marian doctrine of the Reformers is consonant with the great tradition of the Church in all the essentials and with that of the Fathers of the first centuries in particular . . . . .
In regard to the Marian doctrine of the Reformers, we have already seen how unanimous they are in all that concerns Mary's holiness and perpetual virginity . . .
{Max Thurian (Protestant), Mary: Mother of all Christians, tr. Neville B. Cryer, NY: Herder & Herder, 1963 (orig. 1962), pp. 77, 197} {Raymond E. Brown et al, ed., Mary in the New Testament, Phil.: Fortress Press / NY: Paulist Press, 1978, p.65 (a joint Catholic-Protestant effort) }
The title 'Ever Virgin' (aeiparthenos, semper virgo) arose early in Christianity . . . It was a stock phrase in the Middle Ages and continued to be used in Protestant confessional writings (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Andrewes; Book of Concord [1580], Schmalkaldic Articles [1537]).
Mary was formally separated from Protestant worship and prayer in the 16th century; in the 20th century the divorce is complete. Even the singing of the 'Magnificat' caused the Puritans to have scruples, and if they gave up the Apostles' Creed, it was not only because of the offensive adjective 'Catholic', but also because of the mention of the Virgin . . . [But] Calvin, like Luther and Zwingli, taught the perpetual virginity of Mary. The early Reformers even applied, though with some reticence, the title Theotokos to Mary . . . Calvin called on his followers to venerate and praise her as the teacher who instructs them in her Son's commands.
{Raymond E. Brown et al, ed., Mary in the New Testament, Phil.: Fortress Press / NY: Paulist Press, 1978, p.65 (a joint Catholic-Protestant effort) }
{J.A. Ross MacKenzie (Protestant), in Stacpoole, Alberic, ed., Mary's Place in Christian Dialogue, Wilton, Conn.: Morehouse-Barlow, 1982, pp.35-6}
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.{Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539)}
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539)}
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."
(Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)
". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."{Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)}
"Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that."(On the Gospel of St. John: Luther's Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)
"Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees."(From the Commentary on the Magnificat)
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
"Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary."
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}
". . . in the resolutions of the 95 theses Luther rejects every blasphemy against the Virgin, and thinks that one should ask for pardon for any evil said or thought against her."
( Ref: Wm. J. Cole, "Was Luther a Devotee of Mary?" in Marian Studies 1970, p. 116:)
"In Luther's Explanation of the Magnificat in 1521, he begins and ends with an invocation to Mary, which Wright feels compelled to call 'surprising'".
(David F. Wright, Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspecive, London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, p. 178, Cited from Faith & Reason, Spring 1994, p. 6.)
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained 'inviolata' before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - 'Hail Mary' . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
'Fidei expositio,' the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}
Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on 'Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.'
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}
I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}
Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary's perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: 'In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.' She is 'the most unique and the noblest member' of the Christian community . . .
'The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.'
{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A history of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}
The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
{"Letter to a Roman Catholic" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}
Athanasius: "Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis:"... the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]). ..."And to holy Mary, [the title] Virgin is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Hilary of Poitiers: "If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Marys sons and not those taken from Josephs former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, Woman, behold your son, and to John, Behold your mother [John 19:2627), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4
Didymus the Blind: "It helps us to understand the terms first-born and only-begotten when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin until she brought forth her first-born son [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan: "Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I: "You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lords body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Origen: ...And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]). [A.D. 248], Hilary of Poitiers [A.D. 354],
Augustine: "In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]). ..."It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]). ..."Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
"That same power which brought the body of the young man through closed doors, brought the body of the infant forth from the inviolate womb of the mother."
Leporius: "We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary" (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria: "[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing" (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I: "His [Christs] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained" (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Council of Constantinople II: "... the Word of God ... came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her,..." (Anathemas Against the "Three Chapters" 2 [A.D. 553]).
Many people wish that this thing about Mary would go away and that the Church would be in greater unity with other Christians if it would.
It appears that most of the closed feelings against Mary have crept into the reform movement in the last 100 years. Many great Protestants have had strong feelings for Mary including C.S. Lewis.
We are not apologists. Apart from all this doctrine and stuff, the reason we believe that Mary is in heaven helping us is because each of us had an experience with Mary that we cannot refute (David's testimony here, Kirsten's testimony here). No one can tell us she is dead. We don't worship her. She is a friend who prays for us and has shown us very cool things about her Son, Jesus. We believe we are better Christians today because of Mary.
If you are afraid to talk to Mary, we invite you to:
Pray to Jesus about Mary.
Any Evangelical would say it is perfectly safe to pray to Jesus about anything. Ask Jesus what's up with Mary. Give him time to respond. We pray you have the same experience that has led to our powerful convictions about the validity of Mary as a helper for the helpless, and a great prayer warrior.
1 source: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
2 source: www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Official_Report.htm
Mary's perpetual virginity here
Some of this research was taken from Patrick Madrid's "Surprized by Truth" as well as personal conversations with Fr. Bob Bedard founder of the Companions of the Cross.
Another source was Dave Armstrong's research. www.biblicalcatholic.org
No need for apologies, it happens :-).
Matthew 1:24-25 NIV
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Matthew 1:25 KJV
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
Truthfully, little of this matters. It is important that Mary was a virgin when the Christ was conceived and that He was Gods son. These discussions are distractions.
In one way it doesn't matter, in that modern people usually don't see gender and its signs as having any significance at all. For instance, most people don't see the difficulties and pains of women's sexual and reproductive systems as "signifying" anything.
Real question: Do these things "signify" something?
An aside: secular feminists see the distinctive things about women's bodies as being a negative, even an indignity. Menstruation is "the curse." Fertility is regarded as a design flaw -- to be remedied by using chemical and surgical spaying to make most women sterile, most of the time.
Most Western post-Christian people agree with this, and this is expressed in their acceptance of things that de-sex us: transsexuality, homosexuality, contraception, sterilization, all of which they see as corrections of an originally unsatisfactory sexual design.
And childbearing: even with modern obstetrics, it's still often an episode of mess, pain, and blood, almost a matter of "sexual injustice" that women have to go through it. I attended a national NOW convention some years ago as a "spy," and heard a panel of women agree unanimously that getting an artifical clinical incubation process to replace pregnancy should be a national research priority, since childbirth as we know it is a form of violence. An inequality between men and women. Disparate impact, to say the least.
Why do the feminists think this way? Well, for one thing, so many things about female reproductive function DO seem to be evidence, not of "Intelligent Design" on the part of our Creator, but as --- like I said, design flaws.
Everything about sexuality can serve as a reminder to a woman that her body is subject to deterioration, including her period (blood and cramps), her first intercourse (blood again, and pain), and childbirth (lots and lots of blood; thanks to modern anesthesia, shrieking optional.)
And in fact it's all there in Genesis: this is a permanent reminder to women that their bodies have been messed up as an inherited species-wide consequence of Original Sin:
Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said:
I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."
So Biblically --- though the guys, especially, don't often think of it --- women's bodies bear certain bloody woes which Signify Original Sin.
This must have been particularly salient for Jews, since they regard contact with bood as ritually defiing, and any female past puberty is going to be dealing with being untouchable and polluted A LOT of the time.
Then there's the Orthodox Jewish prayer morning prayer for men: "Blessed are you O God , King of the Universe, that thou has not made me a slave, a gentile, or a woman."
These thoughts, perhaps, might give you a handle on why Mary, who was prepared and predestined to be the mother of God, and who was "Kecharitomene" ("Filled-with-grace") would also bear the bodily sign of her favor from God: being freed and liberated from all these ancient curses.
Hence the painless and bloodless impregnation and partuition for Mary, most favored of women. She didn't have any of the curses consequent to sin. Great things were done for her by God her Savior. One of them was, she didn't have to be broken into, or broken out of.
Please read the entire article.
I believe that you are mistaken.
Why not post the entire article as a new thread?
Harley, please check the entire article. Only part of it was posted.
First off, that is not true. There is no typology of that explained in Scripture.
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Using typology, when the Ark of the Old Covenant was touched the person died.
Big dichotomy......
In the OT, a person died if they merely TOUCHED the ark, not if they touched the ark in a sexual way.
If the RCC is going to try to use that about Mary, they are being disingenuous to qualify it as sexual touching as opposed to ANY physical contact.
Therefore, if any physical contact with the ark killed someone on the spot, then any physical contact with Mary should have likewise killed people instantly, and yet her mother conceived and bore her without dying. And for her to grow up as an emotionally healthy child, she HAD to have had physical contact with other human beings.
Hmm, so if other normal sinful human beings touched her, why was she not contaminated with sin, just like Catholics claim would have happened to Jesus if Mary had sinned? If Mary needed to be sinless as to not contaminate Jesus, then why didn't Mary's mother have to be sinless so as not to contaminate Mary? And how far back does that go?
But if God were able to keep Mary sinless being conceived and born of a sinful mother, then He could have done the exact same thing for Jesus being conceived and carried by a sinful mother.
And if the unholy coming in contact with a holy thing drop dead from it, then why didn't all the people Jesus touched when He healed them and all the people who came in contact with him while the crowds pressed in around Him die on the spot too?
Do Catholics even think this stuff through, or just swallow it hook, line, and sinker?
*8"If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Marys sons and not those taken from Josephs former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, Woman, behold your son, and to John, Behold your mother [John 19:2627), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4**
Worth repeating!
Please read the entire article. Only part of it was posted.
No one accepts the PoJ as inerrant, but is is not entirely in inaccurate and no one claims that it was not written in the second century when the practices, customs, and traditions of Judah and the Galilee would have been reflected in it. You are of course free to construct your understanding from what is not said in Scripture, but those of us who are sincere in understanding the meaning and intent of Scripture look the available historical and linguistic records for proper context.
Peace be with you
"No one accepts the PoJ as inerrant,..."
And yet is is cited in opposition to Holy Scripture. Odd that.
It is only selectively cited.....
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