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Tuesday, March 15, 2011
Do women need an annual pelvic exam?
A new article in the Journal of Women's Health by Westhoff, Jones, and Guiahi asks "Do New Guidelines and Technology Make the Routine Pelvic Examination Obsolete?"
The pelvic exam consists of two main components: The insertion of a speculum to visualize the cervix and the bimanual exam where the practitioner inserts two fingers into the vagina and puts the other hand on the abdomen to palpate the uterus and ovaries. The rationales for a pelvic exam in asymptomatic women boil down to these:
--Screening for chlamydia and gonorrhea
--Evaluation before prescribing hormonal contraceptives
--Screening for cervical cancer
--Early detection of ovarian cancer
None of these are supported by the evidence. Eliminating bimanual exams and limiting speculum exams in asymptomatic patients would reduce costs without reducing health benefits, allowing for better use of resources for services of proven benefit. Pelvic exams are necessary only for symptomatic patients and for follow-up of known abnormalities.
Screening for chlamydia and gonorrhea
Screening for chlamydia in young women is evidence-based: It reduces the rate of pelvic inflammatory disease. New tests are available (on urine and self-administered vaginal swabs) that do not require a pelvic exam by a doctor. They are sensitive and cost-effective. Supporting references are listed in the article.
Hormonal contraception
Doctors used to require pelvic exams before they would dispense prescriptions for oral contraceptives. This was never shown to be necessary--no findings from these exams influenced the decision to issue a prescription. One concern, the possibility of a pre-existing pregnancy, can't be entirely ruled out by a pelvic exam, but the risk can be minimized by starting the pills after a normal menstrual period. Now all the major guidelines (from the FDA, WHO, ACOG, Planned Parenthood, etc.) specify that a pelvic exam is not required for hormonal contraception.
Cervical cancer screening
Pap smears have been proven effective in reducing morbidity and mortality from cervical cancer. Speculum exams are necessary to obtain specimens for Pap smears, but Pap smears need not be done annually and speculum exams need not be accompanied by bimanual exams. Current recommendations are to begin screening at age 21 and to re-screen at intervals of two to three years. New technology currently in development may eventually allow for equivalent screening without a pelvic exam.
Ovarian cancer
The evidence shows that bimanual exams are useless for detecting ovarian cancer, and they are no longer recommended for this purpose.
Other benefits and risks of pelvic exams
While other conditions such as fibroids, ovarian cysts, and yeast infections can be detected by examining asymptomatic women, there is no evidence that early diagnosis improves outcomes. Overscreening for cervical cancer has been shown to lead to harm. Findings on pelvic exams can be false positives and can lead to unnecessary interventions.
"U.S. rates of ovarian cystectomy and hysterectomy are more than twice as high as rates in European countries, where the use of the pelvic examination is limited to symptomatic women."
Is it time to abandon the annual pelvic exam?
Yes, I think so. The existing evidence indicates that omitting it in asymptomatic women would not affect health outcomes. This article is representative of a growing consensus in the medical community, especially in other countries; but many U.S. doctors are still doing annual pelvic exams. I suspect (just my opinion) that they are afraid of looking stupid or getting sued if they miss something, or are clinging to what they were taught to do out of inertia. Meanwhile, science-based doctors are leaning away from annual physical exams in general. As WebMD says: The annual physical exam is beloved by many people and their doctors. But studies show that the actual exam isn't very helpful in discovering problems. Leading doctors and medical groups have called the annual physical exam "not necessary" in generally healthy people.
Even in patients being followed for diagnosed diseases, the physical exam sometimes degenerates into a token ritual. I've noticed that although I have no heart or lung symptoms, my own doctors like to check my lungs at every visit by putting the stethoscope on four spots (right, left, front, and back) for one breath each, and to check my heart by applying the stethoscope briefly to one spot. I tolerate it because I know it makes them feel better, but I consider it totally useless.
Admittedly, there is a human element involved: Hands-on interactions and the perception of "doing something" can be reassuring and can enhance the doctor-patient relationship. But can't a caring clinician attain those same benefits within the realm of science-based medicine? A doctor's time is better spent on proven health screening measures and in educating and counseling patients than in carrying out nonproductive rituals.
This post by Harriet Hall, MD, appeared at Get Better Health, a network of popular health bloggers brought together by Val Jones, MD. Better Health's mission is to support and promote health care professional bloggers, provide insightful and trustworthy health commentary, and help to inform health policy makers about the provider point of view on health care reform, science, research and patient care.
Labels: cancer, evidence-based medicine, guest post, OB/GYN, screenings, sexually transmitted diseases
3 Comments:
- said...
It's interesting that the "annual" exam took off in the States before being properly assessed in RC trials.
The UK did a 10 year study and found the exams were unhelpful. Other studies showed the examined group had more unnecessary procedures, surgery, biopsies and some were left with health problems.
The annual exam has never been part of my life. I see the Dr when I have a health issue - asthma when I was younger, now dermatitis and I have my blood pressure and cholesterol checked every 18 mths to 2 years. I don't have cancer screening. I did my own research, looked at my risk profile and considered the actual risks and benefits of the tests. I didn't get that info from a Dr or the Govt.
All cancer screening does harm - it's a Q of weighing up the risks versus the benefits. Every year another test is being sold to us in a one-sided way - at the moment I'm looking at FOT and colonoscopies. I'd never accept the screening authority or a doctor's recommendation to screen....I make up my own mind.
The routine pelvic exam is not recommended here in symptom-free women, I'd refuse it anyway - it's not evidence based and more likely to harm you. Neither is the routine breast or rectal exam - they don't help and breast exams often lead to unnecessary biopsies.
I hate to read US forums on womens' health care - so many women afraid, humiliated, harmed and all for nothing and the way these exams are sold to women is so terribly dishonest and unethical. The use of stirrups says a lot about the way women are viewed as well - they are unnecessary and only used in theatre and during procedures here, not in consult situations.
Also, the widespread use of coercion to force women to have unnecessary gyn and breast exams and voluntary cancer screening - women being refused the Pill, migraine meds, HRT...UNTIL they comply...
I was shocked to read this is life for an American woman. No wonder my American colleagues get their health care out of the country while on business trips and many of your women use on line pharmacies. I don't blame them...to think these women are effectively locked out of health care by doctors forcing their own agenda. I cannot imagine any ethical Dr refusing a woman reliable BC until she agrees to unnecessary and unhelpful gyn and breast exams and until he/she extracts agreement for cancer screening - something that can only ever be an option - because it carries risk to the healthy body. Legally and ethically our informed consent is required for ALL cancer screening. No Dr has the right to make that decision for us or to accept risk on our behalf.
Unplanned pregnancies, abortions, miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies carry FAR more risk to our health and lives. How has this been permitted to go on for so long?
Fortunately, articles like this one will help to raise awareness, but many US women fear their bodies and need medical surveillance and (false) reassurance that all is well..."How do I know I'm healthy, if I haven't been checked?" - that sort of thinking.
It will take time, but hopefully these articles will encourage more women to read further and to question their doctor's advice.
- said...
I had my first pelvic exam given to me without my INFORMED consent. The doctor didn't talk to me at all before doing the procedure. He probably assumed that I'd had one before. I didn't know what was going on and it was very painful and frightening. I'm still trying to cope with the emotional trauma. I don't think I'll ever have a pelvic exam again and I've been trying to find as much info as I can about the CSA blood test that some say is more accurate at detecting cancer than a pap smear. I've been met with a lot of criticism for being repulsed by pelvic exams but I can't help how I feel. I think doctors should be obligated to ask (not just assume) consent. It seems like many people don't care about this issue or avoid talking about it and I'm glad this article had taken up the topic.
- said...
I agree with this. And yet the national OB-GYN professional organization just recommended annual pelvic exams anyway, admitting that the evidence for benefits for mortality reduction, etc. isn't there. Why? Because apparently women still need to be monitored and checked up on by doctors, for blood pressure purposes, weight, discussion of healthy living, etc. But they do BP and cholesterol screening at health fairs and screening days at work, and those of us who are into health and fitness anyway don't need to be babysat by doctors -- especially because we're probably healthier than at least half the docs! So the whole thing seems very paternalistic: you need us to supervise you because we don't think you can be responsible grown-ups who take care of themselves. That said, since pelvic exams aren't decent screening exams for ovarian cancer, and there ARE early symptoms of that deadly cancer, I think the medical community should be doing more to educate women about what symptoms to be alert for, because they're subtle and often only recognized in retrospect. I've NEVER had a doctor tell me that there were actually symptoms of it, and that knowing them could save your life. You have to read stuff on your own to learn that.
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Somebody left poor Wayne in the oven too long!ReplyCancel
Munn – she needs to have me eat that butt.
2 broads in the first pic tag team
The two gals in the top photo have interesting dresses. Everything else… does Walmart sponsor the ACM Awards?ReplyCancel
Wow Olivia looks amazing!ReplyCancel
Jeebus, Wayne Newton looks like Jack Nicholson's The Joker.
And WTF – Guy Fieri on the show? Advertising his new restaurant? How low can you go…
Scotty McCreery is not destined to be a fashion icon.ReplyCancel
LL Cool J was there because…?
The lead singer from Blues Traveler has slimmed down a bit! I once had a neighbor get drunk and tell me about the time she attended one of his shows, snuck backstage and gave him head. She said he called her fat and was a super dick afterward. So that is all I can think of when I see him.
Good times!ReplyCancel
I must have missed Guy Fieriest and Olivia Munns songs when radio played them.ReplyCancel
*Fieri *ReplyCancel
I bet Olivia lets award show producers eat her butt to let her walk the red carpet.
There was a great line about Beff Stern in the book reviews of Oh My Dog on Amazon: "If you had to bleed out beagles to make red carpet, Beff would have puppy traps set up all over Manhattan."ReplyCancel
Don't know any of these except Olivia Minge and gay Robin.ReplyCancel
It's boobs OR leg, Olivia.ReplyCancel
@Molls: See Geez Louise's comment, and you have your answer. They throw a Munn and other names in the mix, to get attention, because lots of people don't pay attention to country music.
The day Willie Nelson dies is the day country is dead to me.ReplyCancel
Count knows true cuntry. Old school for sure.ReplyCancel
Olivia will attend opening of an envelope. she is dating joel kinnaman who actually LOVES that she gets so much publicity, the same way alex skarsgard got publicity from being with the Bosworth virus. the swedes say they don't want the pr but they seek out pr friendly girls knowing they are playing the game.ReplyCancel

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By Brad Locke/NEMS Daily Journal
CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. – Poise has been a defining character trait for Mississippi State this season, and it needed every ounce of composure Monday.
In the ninth inning of Game 2 of the Charlottesville Super Regional, MSU was looking to get three more outs to secure victory and a trip to the College World Series. It didn't happen smoothly.
Closer Jonathan Holder, who has set a school record this year for saves, was on the mound with a 6-3 lead. He had entered in the eighth inning after the game resumed – it was suspended by rain and lighting the night before.
After a flawless 10-pitch eighth, Holder had trouble finding the strike zone in the ninth. A single and a walk put two men on base with one out, and so coach John Cohen came out for a visit.
"He just came out there and said, 'Go with your stuff,' and that everybody trusts me," Holder said.
Things get crazy
That seemed to work, as Holder struck out Jared King for the second out. But then things got crazy.
Joe McCarthy rolled a grounder to third and just beat the throw to score a run and delay MSU's celebration.
Brandon Downes then bounced one to first baseman Wes Rea, who underhand-flipped it to Holder on a play MSU has executed routinely countless times this year.
But Holder lost track of the ball and slipped, and another run scored to make it 6-5.
That gave Virginia runners at second and third. On an 0-2 pitch, Derek Fisher hit a grounder to third baseman Alex Detz, who made a perfect throw to Rea to clinch the win.
"It's just so easy to think that the whole world is going against us, and it isn't going to happen, what are we doing," Cohen said. "But (Holder) has tremendous composure, as do all these guys, that we're going to figure out a way to win the ballgame."
Shortstop Adam Frazier said there was no panic.
"We knew it wasn't over," he said, "and with the tying run on third, with Holder on the mound you still feel pretty comfortable, and we got it done."


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It was a cold night yesterday and I baked some cookies..
It really smelled like Christmas, home...
It was a cold night yesterday and I baked some cookies..
It really smelled like Christmas, home...
And so, as Tiny Tim observed, "God Bless us!! Everyone!!''
A Christmas Carol - Charles Dickens (1843)
I seen fred claus on the movie channel earlier...does this mean we will get more christmas movies yay.
Also my gym have a new programme about loosing weight for christmas and they had little christmas trees and lights around so cute!!!
Steph xx
So excited for christmas 2012
Just wrapped some presents today.Now thats a sign of Christmas!
I should wrap the few that I've purchsed. Have plenty of paper left from last year.
I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas
whole day today,it was cold and cloudy and all the people in warmer clothes....
I really felt like winter is already,like a snow day but of course there was no snow.
When it seems the magic slipped away...
We find it all again on Christmas Day.
*Seeing isn't believing.Believing is seeing.*


text:
Micky Flanagan: The Out Out Tour
Show type: Tour
It's been a great 18 months for Micky - he appeared in BBC 1's Michael McIntyre's Road Show, his Radio 4 series What Chance Change? was a hit with listeners and critics alike and he is one of a handful of comics to perform their own Comedy Central special. So now it's time for Micky to hit the road performing the best of his last two Edinburgh shows. It's not just time to go out, it's time to go Out Out!
Older Comments
paul thompson - 18/11/2011
Seen a lot of comics in last few years, easily up there with the best of them. Fantasticly funny
liz bird - 06/12/2010
Laughed from going into the show to coming out, so funny you will have a tummy ache after watching this show and tears down your eyes through laughter.
Show Dates
This comic also appears in:
Micky Flanagan: An' Another Fing
Micky Flanagan: Back In The Game
Big Value Comedy Show... Early
Just for Laughs: Montreal Festival Showcase 2009
Leicester Comedy Festival Preview Show 2009
Micky Flanagan: What Chance Change?


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At Hostel O meu Rei installations we have a reception and 24 hour, TV room equipped with TV, DVD and Playstation, home theater, computers with internet access, WI -FI, table for board games, laundry s... Lisää...
- Hinta Huonetyyppi
Green House Hostel
The Green House Hostel is located in one of the most beautiful beaches of our coast, with a beautiful sunset, beaches with many waves, great weather. Flamengo Beach, has beautiful palm trees and a bea... Lisää...
- Hinta Huonetyyppi
Tô em Casa Hostel
Being at home is more than warmth is more than a comfortable environment.
Located on the most tourist neighborhood Tô em casa hostel gives you the opportunity to enjoy the best of this beauti... Lisää...
Hostel Pousada Pais Tropical
We are a young Polish - Brazilian couple with a great energy and will to act.
In our work we combine the best of these two cultures - Polish efficiency and Brazilian joy.
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Open House Barra
100% Money Back Guarantee! Discounts on five days stay. CALL
Beautiful place ran by Artists in Barra, the safest area, close to the nicest Beach and Carnival Parade. Dance and Capoeira free classe... Lisää...
- Hinta Huonetyyppi
Fusion Guesthouse
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El Shaday Guesthouse
Che Lagarto Hostel Salvador
Privileged location, comfort, young and fun atmosphere, well equipped and great customer service. The best option for you to stay in Salvador! Our guests recommend us: -"For the price and locati... Lisää...
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Hostel Capoeira
Hostel Capoeira is a perfectly located in the historic centre of Pelourinho. Near the best restaurants, agencies, galleries and entertainment centers and the main tourist attractions.
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Hostel Solar dos Romanos
Sopro de Iemanjá Hostal Cultural
We are a cultural place created for people, their stories and dreams. We receive guests and artists from around the world. We focus on quality of the accomodation, we suggest tours and interesting pla... Lisää...
- Hinta Huonetyyppi
The HospedaSalvador Family Hostel, is set in a beautiful house in an eclectic style facade, which dates from architectural typology of the nineteenth century, thus making the local environment of a hi... Lisää...
Hostel Casa do Indio
Hostel Casa do Indio, In the heart of Salvador amid a colonial architecture, churches, museums, forts finally cultural centre. Near the most beautiful beaches and tourist spots in the historic centre... Lisää...
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Hostel Sobrado25
Hostel Sobrado25 is an antique house next to the Church of the Rosary of the Blacks in Largo. We think about those who put a backpack and go out in search of adventure with maximum economy.
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HI Laranjeiras
Since 1994 the Laranjeiras Hostel offers dorms and private rooms in a XVIII baroque portuguese colonial house. Laranjeiras combines colonial style with modern facilities for backpackers travelling aro... Lisää...
Hostel Patua do Pelourinho
Really nice Hostel in Pelourinho, has dorms and also private rooms with double bed and additional beds.
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Hostel Rio Vermelho
One block from the Beach, in the Home of Iemanja, Hostel Rio Vermelho is rustic and full of warmth. Rich earthy colors, bold artwork on every wall, and unique architecture built for the comfort of its... Lisää...
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A Meson Pousada
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Hostel Torre
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Sleep Well Hostel
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Hostel Itapua
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Albergue Pedra da Sereia
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Tee varaus matkan varrella uusien Hostelworld-matkapuhelinsovellusten avulla.


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Showing 1-24 of 106 items found in Arts & Culture
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A League of Their Own - Illinois Railway Museum
This comedy follows the formation of the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League during the 1940s, at the start of World War II. All of the movie's scenes on the train and at the railroad depot were shot at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, home to more than 250 restored electric, steam and diesel trains. The Nebraska Zephyr passenger train seen in the film is part of the museum's permanent collection.
Above and Beyond Framing and Gallery
Custom framing, art and gift gallery. Featuring Steve Hanks, Tom Lynch and Scanlan.
Adlai E. Stevenson Historic Home
Adlai Stevenson II was an important and influential figure in the political history of the United States. Stevenson was Governor of Illinois from 1949 to 1953 and ran twice for President as the Democratic National Candidate in 1952 and 1956. He also served as Ambassador to the United Nations from 1961 - 1965. The grounds are open daily for self-guided tours. The peaceful setting allows visitors to experience the historic landscape similar to when the family lived in the house. The house has been designated a National Historic Landmark. Group tours can be arranged through the Forest Preserves - 847-968-3422.
Argonne is one of the country's premier facilities for energy-related research and development. Visitors must be at least 16 years old.
Arlington International Racecourse
At Arlington International, we aim to make every day of the season special by combining the excitement of thoroughbred racing, gorgeous grounds and fantastic food to create a winning track experience for our guests! Whether you're looking for a fun and exciting day out with friends and family, a casual and charming afternoon at the races, or a sophisticated and stylish get-together, Arlington International offers an extraordinary experience for everyone! Live racing and entertainment from May through September or find a full calendar of race dates and events at arlingtonpark.com.
CITY:Arlington Heights
Florals and custom made silks.
CITY:East Dundee
A variety of arts events are staged at this location in Argonne.
Enjoy the fusion of traditional Indian architecture with modern technology; Explore the various facets of Hindu rites & rituals, as well as the core philosophical precepts of the religion; Experience peace & serenity. All are welcome.
Big Shot Piano Lounge & Restaurant
Big Shot is an upscale Restaurant & Piano Bar. A cozy place to meet, eat, and drink while listening and interacting with talented musicians. From the warm atmosphere to the variety of enticing menu items, this intimate spot will showcase live talent every night. The extremely friendly restaurant will invite its patrons to participate and sing along with new songs performed by talented professionals. This will definitely be a place to start and end an evening.
CITY:Arlington Heights
Our work embodies skill, insight, and respect for both the material and process. It is useful in the kitchen, on the table, or as an accent to decor. The warmth and beauty crafted into each pot will touch those who use it. Its artistry functions best through daily use, through intimate acquaintance.
Challenger Learning Center for Science & Technology
The mission of the center is to honor the memory and spirit of the Space Shuttle Challenger 51L crew by providing hands-on space exploration curriculum and center that enhances thinking skills and inspires those to meet the challenges of 21st Century.
Chicago Athenaeum International Sculpture Park
Sculpture from around the world is on display from sunrise to sunset at this park located in Schaumburg's Robert O. Atcher Municipal Center.
Exceptional theater productions are performed by children for children.
Citadel Theatre is dedicated to producing inspiring theatre by bringing together gifted professionals from all the theatrical disciplines to create exciting, compelling work of the highest caliber.
CITY:Lake Forest
This theater venue hosts top-notch entertainment, local and national bands, karaoke and comedy shows.
Afghans, books, baby quilts, birdhouses and feeders, ceramics, goose clothes and geese, southwest artifacts, lawn and garden decor and more.
Creek Bend Nature Center features interpretive displays and hands-on exhibits. All the exhibits you loved at Tekakwitha Woods have been relocated here, including Prairie Ecology, with the bison and biodiversity components, and the ever-popular Clams-Eye View of the Fox River. There are separate rooms for classes and a lab. There's something for any nature lover at Creek Bend Nature Center, from bird watching to guided nature hikes, nature programs and self-guided activities.
CITY:St. Charles
The opulent Cuneo Museum and Gardens, located on 75 acres and dotted with formal gardens and statuary was the perfect setting for the wedding scenes in "My Best Friend's Wedding." The gazebo where the best friends were caught kissing was built specifically for the film, but Cuneo's owners liked it so much they decided to keep it permanently. Take a guided tour through the historic Mediterranean-style Cuneo mansion to see Renaissance artworks and lavish European furnishings.
CITY:Vernon Hills
David Adler Music and Arts Center
The David Adler Music and Arts Center is dedicated to promoting music and the arts as an integral part of everyday life. Its year-round activities are designed to foster critical thinking and interpretation, participation, entertainment, and achievement in music and the arts for the people of Northern Illinois. The David Adler Music and Arts Center maintains and interprets the historic home of architect David Adler, which is the base of its activities, and a visual image of the harmony between music, the arts and daily life.
See a Wild West show and museum of Western memorabilia, then dine at Donley's Old West Steakhouse.
Downtown Arlington Heights Shopping & Entertainment District
Diverse collection of charming local shops and major retailers. Outstanding restaurants, theaters, nightlife, and entertainment, all within walking distance.
CITY:Arlington Heights
Drink is the perfect place to join your friends for a few cocktails, have your next event, or dance the night away with Chicaog's hottest DJs.
This authentically restored and furnished 1843 prairie farm house features costumed interpreters who involve visitors in mid-19th century farm life.
CITY:St. Charles
Built in 1917 for A. Watson Armour, Elawa Farm is a stunning example of estate farm architecture. Come and learn about Historic Elawa Farm and what it looked like way back when and what is happening today at the farm. This farm is a 16-acre parcel of land, including the original farm complex buildings that were part of an early 20th century gentleman's farm and has a unique combination of natural setting, designed landscapes and buildings of architectural and historic significance.
CITY:Lake Forest


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G400 - Satu
Designer: J.M.C.Bennett
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Wingspan 60 inches
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Plans are usually printed and despatched within 1-2 working days via 1st Class Royalmail.
Please allow up to 21 days for international delivery.
Please note all plans are delivered folded.
Please note, all of our plans are made/printed to order and are therefore not returnable unless faulty or defective. For more information please check our returns policy.


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Would you vote for the $3.7 billion for emergency funding to deal with the border crisis?
Which is the greatest disaster:
President Obama says we are better off since he became president - Do you agree?
Is the Howie Carr Show devoting too much time to the illegal alien crisis?
Will President Obama ever go to the border to see the conditions for himself?
Will Mitt Romney run for President in 2016
Under the Obama Administration has the United States lost it's standing as a Super Power?
Did the residents in Murrieta, California do the right thing turning away the Immigration Buses?
Is President Obama the worst president since World War 2?
Do you often feel proud to be an American?


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Marlin Eldred officially started as the Economic Development Director on May 20. As the director his main goal and focus is on growing the economy in Emery County. He views economic growth in three ways. "The first is growth from within Emery County. This is focusing on growing existing business and or helping to start new business from within the county.
"Strengthening our local businesses will help them grow and create more jobs. If a business is started from within the county the business owner knows our economic situation and can adjust for that and is also more committed to stay.
"The second area of growth is in tourism. I want to change the perception of Emery County from a pit stop for gas to a place to take a week long vacation. Vacationers need to spend a few days in our county and spend money on local goods and attractions.
"The last area of growth is through bringing in outside businesses. My main focus will be on the first two areas mentioned but as the opportunity arises I will work to bring in outside businesses. I am committed to Emery County and economic development. If anyone has ideas or needs information about starting a business please call me at 381-5576," said Eldred. He can also be reached by e-mail email@example.com


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Jason Gregor
May 22 2013 12:18PM
From June 15th to the 30th NHL teams have a chance to rid themselves of their bad financial decisions; also know as the buyout period. This year the buyout period should be more active with the introduction of two potential compliance buyouts per team.
Here's a quick refresher on how it works.
The regular buyout works like this.
If a player is younger than 26 at the time of the buyout, his team can buy him out for only 1/3 of the remaining value on his contract.
If the player is 26 or older then he is bought at 2/3 of the remaining value.
Teams still take a cap hit for the player, but the costs are spread out over twice the length of his remaining salary. For instance, if a player has two years remaining on a contract that paid him $4 million every year, ($8 million remaining) the team buys him out at a total cost of $5.36 million. Then they would split that into four payments.
His cap hit for the next four seasons would be $1,333,333.
The compliance buyout works the same, as far as paying the player, but the major advantage is that the player's salary doesn't count towards the team's overall cap hit. This is a huge opportunity for teams that are saddled with over-priced contracts, and need to free up some cap space.
Teams are only allowed two compliance buyouts. The Rangers and Canadiens have already used one on Wade Redden and Scott Gomez respectively, so that leaves 58 possible candidates. Teams can use a compliance buyout this year or next June.
If a team uses a compliance buyout, that player cannot re-sign with that same team for at least one season. I've never read anything that would prevent two teams from agreeing to buyout players, then sign the other team's player and trade them back to their original team. I doubt it happens, but I've never read anything that says it's prohibited.
Brad Richards, 33, New York Rangers: 7 years remaining with a $6.67 million cap hit.
He is owed $36 million in actual money, so the Rangers would have to buy him out at $24 million, but he wouldn't count against the cap.
If they used a regular buyout it would cost them $1.7 million in cap space for the next 14 seasons.
Daniel Briere, 35, Philadelphia Flyers: 2 years remaining with a $6.5 million cap hit.
He is only owed $5 million in actual dollars, so the Flyers could buy him out for $3.35 million. If he was a regular buyout he'd cost a lot more in cap space. I believe he's a lock to be a compliance buyout.
Ville Leino, 29, Buffalo Sabres: 4 years remaining with a $4.5 million cap hit.
He is owed $15 in actual dollars, and the Sabres could buy him out for $10 million. Leino only played 8 games this season, but he registered 6 points. He finished the season with lung issues, so he'd have to be deemed healthy before they buy him out. I'm curious to see if the Sabres opt to cut bait with a player who has 10 goals and 31 points in 79 games over two seasons in Buffalo.
Mike Komisarek, 31, Toronto Maple Leafs: 1 year remaining with a $4.5 million cap hit.
He's owed $3.5 million, so it would cost the Leafs $2.33 million to buy him out. That is pocket change for the Leafs, and even though the Leafs currently have $19 million in cap space next season, I see him as a legitimate compliance possibility.
David Booth, 28, Vancouver Canucks: 2 years remaining with a $4.25 million cap hit.
He's owed $9.25 million in actual dollars. It would cost the Canucks $6.19 million to buy him out. The Canucks are in dire need of cap space, so buying out Booth makes sense, as long as he is deemed healthy. He finished the season on the IR.
Keith Ballard, 30, Vancouver Canucks: 2 years remaining with a $4.2 million cap hit.
He's owed $8.4 million in actual dollars, and it would the Canucks $5.6 million to buy him out. Getting rid of Booth and Ballard would free up $8.45 million, but it would also illustrate two of Mike Gillis' worst signings. Ballard was a healthy scratch in the playoffs, and seemingly can't stay out of the Canucks doghouse.
Ilya Bryzgalov, 32, Philadelphia Flyers: 7 years remaining with a $5.66 million cap hit.
He is owed $34.5 million, so it would cost the Flyers $23 million to buy him out. The Flyers are currently over the $64.3 million cap for next season. They need to find some cap space, and at the same time improve their team. Bryzgalov's play was actually fairly decent in Philadelphia this season, according to the beat reporters, but his aloof attitude seems to have worn out its welcome with his teammates and management. However, $23 million, just to say goodbye, is still a huge chunk of money, even for the rich Flyers.
Dany Heatley, 32, Minnesota Wild: 1 year remaining with a $7.5 million cap hit.
Heatley is owed $5 million, so the Wild would need to ante up $3.33 million to send him packing. The Wild have $8.5 million in cap space, but they need to re-sign Cal Clutterbuck, Matt Cullen, Jared Spurgeon and decide what to do about a starting goaltender. Backstrom is unrestricted. Buying out Heatley would almost double their cap space.
Eric Belanger, 35, Edmonton Oilers: 1 year remaining with a $1.75 million cap hit.
Belanger is owed $1.25 million, so it would cost the Oilers $833,333 to get him off the roster. I don't see him being in Edmonton next season. The Oilers could use a regular buyout on him, but because his contract was front-loaded he would be a $916,667 cap hit next season, and a $416,667 cap hit in 2014. The Oilers likely won't be in a cap-crunch this season, so they could save a compliance buyout for a bigger contract if necessary.
Some have suggested the Oilers send Belanger to the minors in early October and hope someone claims him on waivers, but I doubt they want him in the AHL around their younger players.
- The Oilers only need to qualify Magnus Paajarvi at $850,000 to maintain his rights, so I think we can safely say that will happen. The bigger question is what will his new deal look like? I could see him getting a two-year deal at $1.5 million/year. His agent likely wants more money or only a one-year deal to allow Paajarvi an opportunity to have a good season and cash in next year. I'm curious to see how MacTavish handles Paajarivi's contract.
- Many have asked if Shawn Horcoff is an option for a compliance buyout. I don't see the Oilers doing that unless MacTavish makes a few deals to acquire a few veteran centremen. You can't expect the Oilers to compete if they have Nugent-Hopkins, Gagner and Lander as their top-three centres next season. They need some experience and strength. I don't see Horcoff being bought out this summer.
- Here is Jordan Eberle's second commercial. How would you rate it compared to his ATB ones?
- Who are some other players you feel would be obvious compliance buyouts, other thanTomas Kaberle in Montreal?
We will need Horcoff for at least 1 more year. It will depend on what MacT can do regarding that position for Horcoff's last year. Next year he can be bought-out for 2M and saving 5.5M on cap.
I dont recall this happening. I thought that was Ryan Whitney?
May 22 2013, 04:49PM
What I would like is for Lecavalier to be bought out. Maybe a 5 year, 27.5 million dollar deal (5.5 million a year to save the counting) and he could be our second line centre. Thoughts everyone?
He was on Montreal radio gushing about what a dream it would be to play for the Habs, yadda yadda.. I have no problem with him wanting to play there, but he was a free agent and signed here. A professional under contract.. the only thing I want to hear out his mouth is his love for his current team and how its a dream to play for them.
I don't know what the Lightning's financial situation is, but Lecavalier's buyout would be incredibly expensive for anyone.
He's owed $45M over the next 7 years. If they bought him out, they'd have to spend $30M over the next 14. I guess $2.14M a year could be easier to swallow than the $10M they'll have to shell out this coming season to have him play for them.
What does everyone think of Burmistrov for Gagner? A pure hockey trade. Jets get deeper at center. Oilers get a better defensive centermen who could slot in at 2 or 3. Im down with it.
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that compliance buyouts can only be used on players already signed to their existing team at the time of the CBA being ratified.
For example, shawn horcoff can be bought out by the oilers. If horcoff is traded to team X, team X can not "compliance buy out" horcoff because horc wasn't on their team when the CBA was signed (perhaps he could be "traditional buy out"'d though). So all these ideas of trading for a player + pick and then compliance buying out the player are probably not valid. I am too lazy to find a source, but it logically makes sense too.
May 22 2013, 06:27PM
Paajarvi has to be qualified at (current salary) + 10%...no..? $900,000k + 10% = $990,000k
That's just nitpicking though-retaining Paajarvi is the least of their worries.
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that compliance buyouts can only be used on players already signed to their existing team at the time of the CBA being ratified.
For example, shawn horcoff can be bought out by the oilers. If horcoff is traded to team X, team X can not "compliance buy out" horcoff because horc wasn't on their team when the CBA was signed (perhaps he could be "traditional buy out"'d though). So all these ideas of trading for a player + pick and then compliance buying out the player are probably not valid. I am too lazy to find a source, but it logically makes sense too.
@matt-- Don't think so, bud. Plain English-- the player must have a Standard Player Contract in order to be bought out. The Team that buys him out can't resign him but it says nothing about acquiring a player and then buying him out.
Here is the summary from the NHLPA.com website at page 2 and you can check it out for yourself: (http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/Summary-of-Terms-1-10-13.pdf)
During the Ordinary Course "Buy-Out" periods following the 2012/13 season and 2013/14 season, in addition to any other Ordinary Course "Buy-Outs" a Club may elect to effectuate pursuant to Paragraph 13 of the SPC, Clubs may elect to terminate and "buy-out" the already existing SPCs of up to two (2) additional Players (in the aggregate over the two (2) years) on a Compliance basis (a "Compliance Buy-Out"). Such Compliance Buy-Out(s) would be effectuated on the same terms as are set forth in Paragraph 13 of the SPC, except that the amounts paid under such "buy-out(s)" will not be charged against the Club's Cap in any of the years in which the payments are made to the Player. Amounts paid under such Compliance Buy-Out(s) will, however, be counted against the Players' Share during any League Year in which the "buy-out" payments are made. A Player that has been bought out under these Compliance Buy-Out provisions shall be prohibited from re-joining the Club that bought him out (via re-signing, Assignment, Waiver claim or otherwise) for the duration of the 2013/14 League Year (if the Player was bought out in 2013) and the 2014/15 League Year (if the Player was bought out in 2014).
Thanks for clearing that up vetinari (interesting name). Good news for the oilers. Well, maybe Katz will step up and allow a trade for a buyout player. It sure is an interesting trade opportunity.
@Jason Gregor
Correct me if I am wrong... & I am trying to answer more than a few posts with this, so apologies in advance here Jason, as I am not disparaging your (or anyone else's) stats/comments.
Clubs can't use a compliance/amnesty buyout on a player that makes under $3mill per season.
So that would take the Belanger Triangle out of the mix for that option.
MPS would also have to be be given a Qualifying Offer of $900K & not $850K, plus a 5% raise on his past years $900K salary.
As for dealing a player who then gets bought out by another Club & then re-acquiring him. I'm pretty well sure that is still covered by the old CBA. (via the Dean Mcammond rule, where he was dealt & reacquired in a calender year & the trade was voided due to that clause, even if it was just a waiver claim as you cannot circumvent the Cap in any way)
Although, that 1 is up for debate since the NHL & NHLPA only have the MOU to go by until the final new CBA Doc is ratified.
ALL SPC's are under the new CBA rules as of now, there is NO grandfathering of ANY SPC's in any way. Hence the Soccer~Lou deal would cost the Knucks a penalty fee even if he was traded & he retires from his other team before his SPC goes to term.
There is a 2nd opportunity for a buy-out period, but you have to take a player to arbitration for the Club to receive that reprise. You don't actually have to have the meeting to do so either, you can settle & still get the extra buy-out period.
How dare you misspell Shawn Horcoff, Jayson.
Unless there is a buyout of Shawn Horcoff's contract, the culture of this team and the progression of the youth will suffer.
It's time for guys like Horcoff and Smyth to move on to other roles.........apparently the team has plans for Smyth and Horcoff would make a good management candidate. As far as their hockey skills go, especially Horcoff, their best before date long expired.
I hope Mac T shows his courage and totally transforms the bottom six .........watching the playoffs with teams like Boston, San Jose, LA, and Chicago makes one realize that our team needs toughness on at least two if not three lines.
If we were in the playoffs our small team would need a hospital on-site. Thank god that Tamby is gone.........time for Mac T to show us some of his vision , everyone is watching.
Blah blah sh*t on Horcoff, blah blah, meaningless drivel. If Horcoff is bought out, who replaces him? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but Horcoff still has use on this hockey team and is still a great mentor for the younger players. Yes Horcoff has slowed down, yes he's overpaid, but no one on the current roster has the skill-set to replace him. In my mind Horcoff still has a year left with Oilers before cap issues become a problem, so I say let him play.
What I would like is for Lecavalier to be bought out. Maybe a 5 year, 27.5 million dollar deal (5.5 million a year to save the counting) and he could be our second line centre. Thoughts everyone?
I'd also like Lecavalier but not a 5 year contact . Three year with options and devoid of a NTC . He'd still be our first line center on our club , and that's no offence to a still developing Hopkins . Could he turn Gagner into the next St.Louie ? We should be so lucky .
May 22 2013, 11:16PM
DSF don't bother commenting. I encourage you to write a blog, I'll promote it for you, but you won't be hijacking the comments section in my articles. Good luck. Also, no need for anyone else to comment on this. Just talk about buyouts.
^This has to be the most prop'd comment in Nation history.
@Jason Gregor
Can't we buy out Kevin Lowe??? LOL
Who do you think based on the other teams buyouts, should the Oilers target? Eg: Danny Briere, Komisarek etc?
May 22 2013, 11:30PM
I truly believe if Oilers were serious about winning, they would drop the old boys network and hire Alain Vigneault. It would take a strong President to do this. Kevin ( 6 Stanley Cups) Lowe does not guts to do what is right.
Oilers will be losers until Lowe is fired. Edmonton has the worst record in the NHL since the lockout 2004. And Kevin thinks he knows about winning.
Kevin Lowe alone has more Stanley Cups than Canucks will in their existence.
Kevin Lowe played more important games in one season then Alain did in his whole career.
Canucks will not win no matter who they hire. It is on the weakness of the Oilers rosters that the Canucks were made to look good and presentable. It is easy to collect wins in NW division, not so much against the Hawks and the Sharks.
If Kevin Lowe needs Alain to hold his candle, I'm sure he'll consider calling him.
@Jason Gregor
Fair enough JG...
Did not know about the "signing" bonus part of MPS's ELC... (other than the $625K that is added to his Cap Hit via the bonus ratio)
How did you find that information..?
I agree, they will give him a Q.O. without a doubt, & will likely (& smartly) try to lock him into a 2 or 3yr SPC for somewhere in the $1.6 to $1.75 range while hoping he doesn't hit the bigtime after only taking a 1yr term deal. (Which I assume his agency will push for)
My source is from the Pro-Rep Agency, (which I am sure you know of)so I sure hope they know what they are talking about... But then again, look at the R.o'R. agency with the Feaster debacle... (or DID they know it & prayed they wouldn't end up in a Blue~Jacket..?) {Sorry for the > Tin Foil Hat Jargon)
I do have a question for you from ALL the way down here in LaLaLand...
Would you take a gamble on trading the 7th over-all pick BEFORE Draft day if you could get a Pre-Apex type player that can help the Club right away, or do you simply wait & hope you can make a better Draft day deal at the tables without knowing who is going where 1st..? (& maybe lose out on that player because of waiting..?)
Personally, I think not drafting 1st for once is MUCH more exciting for River City fans than just deciding between Taylor/Tyler > RNH/G.L. > Nail/Murray.
I'm sure you'll agree as it will make for much better radio for you & your listeners...
& Yes... We do listen to the show down here in CrownTown... ;)
May 22 2013, 11:53PM
For the record, it was never a question of RNH/Landeskog. It was RNH and Larsson.
@Jason Gregor
I'm sort of with you on the pre-Draft deal, but certain teams get desperate & more G.M.'s get into the mix on that day, & with the entire Draft commencing on 1 day instead of 2, I think it really changes the dynamic to Draft than when you could "reset" with your scouting staff on day #2 after the 1st round was completed.
I know of those sites Jason... Not always the DEFINED truth/facts though...
As for moving that pick... it would take much more than the pick. But that was what I was alluding to... Would it be better to leverage an earlier offer against another few Clubs or pull the trigger right away..?
What IF is the crappy thing you think of at 2am in bar when the lights go on.
I am hoping that is not the case when it comes to New Jersey in June...
For the record, it was never a question of RNH/Landeskog. It was RNH and Larsson.
For the record...
That was in the media's eyes & NOT in the Oilers eye's or a few other Clubs.
It was a HUGE question... You may not dig the answer, but it was to a few of the top 3 teams that Draft.
Although, the Oilers were taking RNH ALL the way...
But YES, it WAS a question that more than a few puck people were seriously asking themselves.
I'm confused as to why we couldn't replace Horcoff if we bought him out?
A competent GM should be able to fill some holes with $5.5million and a roster spot, no?
May 23 2013, 08:09AM
Why trade down from that 7th pick. Oilers will get nothing but another support type player back. A player who, when he steps onto that ice, is at best, going to be another non factor type player.
Oilers need impact players, not yet another Gagner, Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky non factor type most nights.
What does everyone think of Burmistrov for Gagner? A pure hockey trade. Jets get deeper at center. Oilers get a better defensive centermen who could slot in at 2 or 3. Im down with it.
I would consider this a step backwards. Gagner is a much better all round player than Burm at this point in their careers. Not sure how Burm projects but we lose this one at the start. I honestly believe that a big winger with skill is all that it would take to improve Gagner's defensive stats. He needs someone to do the heavy lifting and assist with scrambled face-offs. He doesn't lose too many clean draws but has no support to clean up the loose pucks. A 'Horton' on the wing would make that second line click. Alternatively, a big centre with Gagner shifted over to the wall. The kid has great skills, great hockey sense, determination, and 6 years of NHL hockey under his belt. I just can't see how you give that type of player away when we have so many other issues. And you'll never get full value in a trade for him.
May 23 2013, 09:44AM
What does everyone think of Burmistrov for Gagner? A pure hockey trade. Jets get deeper at center. Oilers get a better defensive centermen who could slot in at 2 or 3. Im down with it.
Burmistrov and Bogosian, in exchange for Gagner and Hemsky. Deal?
Maye it's just me but #33 comment indicates there aint any honor in lala land
Why trade down from that 7th pick. Oilers will get nothing but another support type player back. A player who, when he steps onto that ice, is at best, going to be another non factor type player.
Oilers need impact players, not yet another Gagner, Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky non factor type most nights.
Non-factor type player - Gagner??? I don't know about that. He was a factor every game. He was always creating offence. (Sometimes it was for the other team,) but he was certainly a factor.


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Skip to comments.'Baby' Pilot at Controls of Doomed Air France Airbus
Posted on 05/29/2011 12:42:16 PM PDT by lbryce
HE was one of Air France's "company babies": a dashing 32-year-old junior pilot - and a keen amateur yachtsman - who had been qualified to fly the airline's ultra-sophisticated Airbus A330 jet for barely a year.
Yet despite his inexperience, Pierre-Cedric Bonin found himself responsible for the lives of 228 passengers and crew members on June 1, 2009, when the cockpit of his $190 million aircraft lit up with terrifying and contradictory alarm signals en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.
While Bonin held on to the plane's side-stick controller and looked at his instruments in disbelief, his co-pilot, David Robert, 37, began troubleshooting. The captain, Marc Dubois, 58, was napping outside the cockpit.
According to a newly-released report by French investigators - which finally answers some of the questions surrounding the mystery of Flight 447 - a fatal sequence of events had already been triggered when the plane's external speed sensors suddenly gave inconsistent readings, possibly because of ice.
This is thought to have caused the autopilot to disengage, which in turn brought warning of an aerodynamic stall.
That is when Bonin - who remained at the controls while Robert shouted with increasing desperation for the captain - did something that aviation experts have described as inexplicable: he pointed the nose of the Airbus upwards, causing it to slow down dramatically. He kept doing this for at least one minute until the plane had climbed 3,000ft to 38,000ft.
This one rudimentary mistake, according to the initial findings of France's aviation safety authority, might have been responsible for the aircraft no longer having enough air flow over its wings to remain aloft, although no blame has yet been officially assigned.
(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.com.au ...
Awesome 360 degree Zoom Viewer/A 380 cockpit
The fact of the matter is that for many years airlines have been very anxious to have all flight data transmitted in real time to prevent just this very tragedy but the pilots' union has vehemently opposed just such measure because they did not want higher-ups questioning their judgment, decision-making process, and instead have opted for the "black box" approach that is mindbogglingly useless in saving lives.
The passengers are dead. It's very comforting to know the precises circumstances in how the passengers died. Instead of having provided live data that would have certainly saved flight 447, all that there is to show for it is Vive la France.
dashing 32-year-old junior pilot runs a $190 million plane and it's passengers into a free fall. Hopefully his dashing co-workers take note and pay attention to their training.
It is hard to fathom how 3 pilots could have essentially ridden a stall from FL380 to the ground (sea) ... the combination of no external ques, and contradictory instrument information had to be confusing, but after a minute or 2 of holding a nose high AOA with no improvement, it seems at least they would have tried something different, like pointing the nose down. Very bizarre incident.
How the heck does the report know how the co-pilot looked? Stupid writing!
Whoops. I thought he was the co-pilot. He was the pilot.
Where was Sully Sullenberger III when you needed him?
>I don't believe that for a second.
And you are entirely correct not to.
This article is mostly nonsense.
I still don't see how 3 pilots could have held a nose high attitude right into the water from FL380, conflicting indications notwithstanding.
Something is missing although the report on PDF document is more inclusive.
Does Rio ice over in June? Since they are south of the equator, this is the equivalent of December 1st for them but I've always thought of Rio as being South America's Miami.
Ice can be encountered at 38,000 feet during any season and at any latitude.
I am no pilot, but even I know that is bad.
You do realize that the average air temperature at 35,000 feet is -50 degrees, don't you?
FL 350. Not exactly balmy up there. (rolls eyes)
The article says he held the nose up for one minute.
So you're saying ground controllers could have intervened and saved the aircraft if the proper ground links were operational? How, precisely?
So Air France places greater importance on a "dashing appearance" than actual experience and expertise?
How typically French.
I think it was the center fuel tank
Question for any heavy metal pilots out there:
1. Does this aircraft have backup mechanical Artificial Horizon.
2. In case of the "glass cockpit" giving conflicting readouts, are the Air France Pilots trained to go back to a mechanical artificial horizon for attitude control? (Note: if airspeed depicted on the glass cockpit is wrong the only way to control speed is by attitude)
3. It sounds like the aircraft was in a flat spin?????
Can the A340 recover from a flat spin with input only from flight controls? What is the training for Air France Pilots in relationship to a flat spin in an A340.
4. How close would the center of gravity be to the max aft portion of the flight envelope for the aircraft with the fuel load and passenger distribution and also with 2 hours of fuel burned?
5. The old British Trident could get in "deep stall" and be
unrecoverable. This was a result of turbulence off the stalled wing hitting the horizontal stabilizer. However, the trident was a T Tail and the A340 is not.
ATP pilots please respond with your analysis.
If the pilot was getting high airspeed readings from the computers, then he did the correct thing to raise the nose if he didn't trust the other instruments (the plane must not be allowed to go into a dive and exceed NTE speed, because it will start to break up).
A quad-redundancy FCS might well have allowed it to sort out the mixed signals, but that's another story. I know Boeing was interested in using quad-R, but I don't know whether they have it in their production aircraft.
Please explain why a "flight command center" receiving data from an aircraft, in real time, as it occurs, to intervene, alert pilots on what is really going would not have saved flight 447.
Because the data being sent to the 'center' would have been the same data that was being sent to the fight deck instruments and causing great confusion there.
Because the flight command center would be even farther behind the aircraft
Unless his skills were way deficient, I don't see his 'inexperience' as being a factor.
How typically French.
That, and haughtily holding one's nose in the air...
A 38,000 foot STALL???? Look, I only flew little planes, but nobody has too little time to pull ANY sized plane from a stall at 38,000 feet!!!!! Sounds like a case of super-panic leading to a total mental collapse. But of 3 people??!!
Just as with the crash in which Secretary Ron Brown died (notice the careful use of words) could have been avoided if the crew had had a simple and inexpensive VFR GPS as a third reference, it appears that for all the fancy gear, this Airbus could not supply the flight crew with the simple raw attitude, groundspeed and groundtrack information that my Garmin 496 provides while running on independent internal battery pack.
I am willing to bet that Air France would forbid a flight crew member from even carrying a 496 in his bag just in case.
In both instances, the deaths could have been avoided.
Considering that every pilot is taught stall recovery before they are allowed to solo, I consider all these reports to be complete BS. And it's not something you are taught just once. It's drilled into you six ways from Sunday as you progress in your flying. My guess is that for an ATP to get certified in type he must have recovered from at least 100 stalls in various attitudes and power configurations in a flight simulator.
I was simply asking a question. Yes, I know it is colder higher up in the atmosphere although I'm no expert on the subject. But it doesn't answer the question of why they are blaming icing as a possible cause of the crash. Planes fly across the Atlantic at 35,000 feet every day and do not crash. This one crashed. Why? Icing doesn't explain it since all planes flying at 35,000 feet at -50 below do not crash into the ocean.
My question is what made *this* plane crash and the reports are not giving me acceptable explanations.
I see that the left seat is all set up for the Bamster.
According to the surviving pilot of the Airbus airshow crash, he was trying to climb and the computer was trying to land. The computer won and 'landed' in the trees off the runway end. My point being that the pilots here may have been doing everything right but couldn't overcome the computer. Just speculation on my part but there have been some control issues with this aircraft.
...nah, that could never happen again....
The attitude indicators (artificial horizon) are driven by the Inertial Reference Units (IRUs, a.k.a. INS), not the pitot static system. Stalling is only dependent on angle of attack, so they knew they were in a nose up situation, and based on the cockpit voice recorder, they knew airspeed indications were unreliable.
This was suicide by ignorance. Get the nose down, break the stall, level the airplane, and fly it by power settings (instead of airspeeds). Once out of the icing environment, the ice wil sublimate off of the pitot static system.
I trust U.S. airline pilots more than foreign airline pilots.
I'm not a ATP pilot, but I can categorically state:
1) yes
2) yes
3) the aircraft was NOT in a flat spin
4) per the BEA note to the 2nd Interim report, CG was at 29%. While this was far aft, it was within normal design limits and NOT at extreme design limit.
5) That's correct, only T-type tailplanes can exhibit 'deep' stalls.
The BEA Interim Report No2 of Dec 2009 describes 32 similar icing pitot probe events which occured before AF447. 26 aircraft had the Thales C16195AA probes, two with the Thales C16195BA probes and one with the Goodrich 0851HL probes.
Nine of these A330/A340 events were identified by Air France before 1 June 2009, and their additional review of records located another six events that occured in 2008.
So 15 Air France flight crews experienced the same failures, the same warnings, the same cockpit confusion as AF447, and survived.
Across the multiple airlines which provided analysis data to BEA and Airbus - at least 10 of the icing incidents with at least two pitot probe failures apparently occured in the ITCZ between South America and Europe.
Kind of shoots the lack of training theory out the window.
The program done a couple of years ago (Bill Kurtis for — National Geographic (?)) theorized that ultra-rapid icing overwhelmed the heaters on all the pitots, thus throwing the instrument readings into complete confusion. They had some atmospheric physicists do some experiments in a wind tunnel to show how it could happen under the conditions that were apparently encountered.
They also examined the weather data for the time the crash happened, and concluded that the pilots had a storm cell showing up on their radar that they could negotiate. Unfortunately, hidden from radar behind that one was a mother-of-all-cells that presumably doomed them, perhaps indirectly due to the pitot icing.
This work was done at least a year before the black boxes were located and recovered.
Ice needs two things: low temps and water. 38,000 guarantees the low temp. There was an especially nasty storm between South America and North Africa that day, hence water. The first thing I did the morning of the crash was look at the equatorial Atlantic satellite image, and what I saw made me think the flew into an especially nasty storm, perhaps causing structural damage. Icing makes total sense.
This prompts me to recall more of the TV program I saw.
They piped the conditions they believed the 447 pilots encountered into an Airbus simulator with a highly experienced crew, and they pancaked in too.
The program said that training for Air France pilots has now been changed to cover this situation. I seem to recall an expert on the program mentioning "fly-by-throttle."
Would you be surprised to learn that the Airbus approach to the stall recovery is almost identical to the Boeing one, the Airbus target pitch attitude is actually lower at higher altitudes?
I can see how that would have saved a lengthy aquatic search, but how would it have saved the airplane? If the instruments were not working for the guys in the cockpit, would have they have been working some controller in Paris?
If your ASI is showing you are at the NTE (not-to-exceed) speed, the last thing you want to do is lower the nose. Losing a wing is much less attractive at altitude than getting into a stall.
The CVR suggested the pilots knew the instruments were giving bad data. Regardless, as soon as one's intestines lodge in one's throat, and the checklist is on the ceiling, one knows they are in a stall. Stalls are stalls. They are unsettling. The horn, the burble, the sluggish controls, followed by that (literal) sinking feeling.
To be crude, I recall an Air Force instructor pilot who said the turn and slip indicator (needle and ball) served the same purpose as one's sphincter. He used a different term, but you get my drift. If your sphincter rises into your chest, your instruments may be lying to you.
Reminds me of the old saying, "If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going."
"You do realize that the average air temperature at 35,000 feet is -50 degrees, dont you?"
Tens of thousands of aircraft fly at this altitude daily and their pitot tubes don't freeze. In fact, most commercial passenger aircraft have heated tubes to rule out single point failure including this one.
Air France has given several theories on this crash from a lightning strike to icing in an effort to shift blame.
Operator error and controlled crash into terrain.
You know what else is interesting, although the vertical stabilizers break off all the time, they reattach themselves while in flight and virtually none of the passengers ever notice the phenomenon occuring. Creepy.
Why the focus on the vertical stabilizer, how come nobody ever questions the cockpit breaking off?
True, but having a wing break off in a high-speed dive is even more unsettling (although there are few around to tell that tale).
Taking an aircraft of this design and size into a 'full stall' is never done. It is highly unlikely that even the manufactures test pilot could have recovered from that condition. It is not like stalling a 'Cub". Many things happen including most likely the failure of the engines due to disrupted air flow. Swept wing aircraft are notorious for their stall recovery problems.
In general, this is a ridiculous bit of yellow journalism. Pilots and co-pilots of commercial aircraft must have an ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) rating, or the international/ICAI equivalent. This was no student pilot in the cockpit. Because of the nature of long international flights, both pilots must be qualified in commanding the aircraft. The overdramatization and sheer creative writing I read in this report is reprehensible.
As to what happened with this particular flight, that's another thing altogether, but their representation of the co-pilot's qualifications should have been left on the cutting room floor.
Airbus has known that the pitot tubes on some of their planes were faulty and susceptible to icing.
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By COREY BLUEMELStaff Writer
At a special commission meeting held April 28 in the commission chambers, the Emery County Commissioners met with interested representatives from the cities and towns to discuss opening county roads to ATV travel. The request has arisen out of concern to accommodate any visitors or other ATV riders who may need to access the towns businesses from trails and roads on forest service or BLM land.
Commissioner Drew Sitterud called the meeting to order and welcomed representatives from Clawson, Orangeville, Elmo and Ferron. Sitterud stated that he had invited all the councils and mayors in the county to attend the meeting or send a representative. He also stated that he has done quite extensive research into the ordinances of other counties around the state concerning the issue of ATV use.
Commissioner Sitterud reported to the group that this county definitely needs an ordinance to address this need. There are only a few counties in the state that have ordinances like the one being considered. Sevier County is the only county around the Piute Trail system that has an ordinance in place for ATV use on county roads. Their ordinance states that ATVs can be used on any dirt road in the county. Many other counties that responded to Sitterud's questions had responded that any ordinance of this kind needs to be researched very thoroughly.
Millard County has a three page list of roads that can be used for ATV travel, but all staging areas are outside the cities. The staging areas are within one half mile of the cities and access seven trails.
Grand County does not allow the use of ATVs on any paved road, use is limited to dirt roads only. All staging is at the trailheads, there is an in-town speed limit and all ATV drivers must be licensed drivers.
The increase in the number of registered machines has risen by 300 percent over the last three years and the projections are for the growth to continue at the same pace for the foresee able future.
Commissioner Ira Hatch said that he had recently spoken to an attorney who is well versed in ATV laws. The attorney informed Hatch that if the county opens any road to ATVs, then it (the county)assumes some liability. The county will then be expected to keep the roads in a safe operational condition for ATVs. If an accident should occur, the county would have to be proven negligent. The judge in the case would be the one to decide if the road was safe for travel.
Sheriff Lamar Guymon stated that his office is to do the will of the people of Emery County and the commissioners will have the final word, and the sheriff's office will enforce whatever ordinance is adopted. Guymon said Orangeville's ordinance contains the correct wording and that it is a good starting place. Guymon has discussed the issue with his officers and the consensus is that an ordinance needs to be in place that is manageable and usable. Some points for consideration are use on paved roads and supervision of underage riders.
Another issue is that some of the county's dirt roads are very dangerous for vehicles alone, when you put ATVs into the equation, the danger levels increase dramatically. "We need to address the situation, negligence is just as bad as over-enforcement," said Guymon.
Sitterud explained that the county wants to put together a road plan complete with maps and ordinance wordings and begin the process of holding public hearings as far as the county roads are concerned. Each city will need to put together its own plan and maps that will make the desired tie ins with BLM and forest service roads. Those cities that wish to be involved will need to begin work on plans and maps soon to enable the commission to work around the cities needs.
When the cities begin this process, they need to take into consideration the state statutes and the specific language allowing the egress and ingress of ATVs into the cities from the outside trail systems. There should be wording about penalties for those who use their ATVs to just get around town. The state statute prohibits that sort of use, it only allows for those who enter and leave a town with a specific business or resupply destination.
Orangeville's representative, Randall Stilson, expressed that city is only open to low impact roads. He also stressed the importance of all the cities having the same ordinance for ease of enforcement.
Clay Gasser stated that Clawson would like to see the track developed to help keep ATVs off private property. There is a problem in most cities that the ATVs trespass on private property when that land adjoins the city and county or BLM lands.
Elroy Mortensen from Elmo reported that they have passed an ordinance there that allows for ATV use on two of the streets but that there are some problems with enforcement.
The intent of this ordinance is to regulate the riders of the trail systems to get supplies, but there is no trail system. Maps of a trail system are the first order of business for the cities to put in place before the county can make any considerations of ATV use on county roads.
Ray Petersen, public lands director, stated that the machines are not engineered for use on paved roads and that county and city roads are not designed for use by the ATVs. Shared access is a serious safety issue and the ATV users should consider transporting their machines to staging areas. Another question by Petersen was the insurance and liability issue. The liability that would be inherited by the county needs to be taken into consideration.
Jo Sansevero, Ferron city council person, expressed that city's interest in allowing egress and ingress for a four day period during the jamboree in August. The city wants to accommodate visitors and these actions may entice more visitors to return at later dates to further enjoy the beauty of Emery County. The jamboree organizers will issue use permits to those who register at the jamboree. These permits will enable the sheriff's officers to know who is riding legally.
Commissioner Sitterud closed the meeting with the proposal that all the cities create the maps with the designations for tie ins to the trails, and bring the proposals of what each wants to the next meeting. That meeting is tentatively scheduled for June 10.


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Has a guy ever told you to smile on the street? This video is for you
I have a very bitchy resting face or when I am focusing—people are always asking me whats wrong and telling me to smile more—I am 90% very happy mostlyReplyCancel
I don't smile for a reason and that reason is not because I'm not happy. It's so condescending when people tell you to smile especially when they don't know you.ReplyCancel
Nobody better ever try that with me its always keep it real time outside. Tl:dwReplyCancel
yes, and I hate it. makes me want to do the opposite.
sometimes i'm just bloody thinking. or sometimes it's bcuz i don't want to encourage the creep, they are, that's approaching.ReplyCancel
@ Sunny LOLReplyCancel
I don't like the way my smiling face looks, so I only smile when I have to.ReplyCancel
Amen Jack Ducky!
A few months ago I was horribly upset because of financial issues and every time I went out some guy–always a guy—harassed me and basically ordered me to smile. One man was so obnoxious about it he followed me around the block in his SUV, yelling out the window at me about how nothing could be all that bad and I should "cheer up."
What it is is a form of body policing, just like when someone tells an overweight person to lose weight or a slim person that they're anorexic. Unfortunately it seems to happen mostly to women, and usually the offender is a man.
One woman I know, who is a ditz anyway, said that she actually likes it when strangers tell her to smile. I tried to explain to her, using my own experiences, how the strangers don't really care about you and that they're harassing you. She could not get it. I suppose if she's at a bus stop sometime and a stranger pulls up and offers her a ride, she'll take it and say he's just "being nice." Smdh.
In my situation, I've found out the hard way it's best to just ignore the jackass whose hounding you to smile. When I was younger I would tell them exactly what they could do to themselves, and it just made things worse. I think men do that to women just to have an excuse to get us into fights and shiz. Smdh. It sucks to be a woman.
I've had this happen to me so many times, since I was like 15. I agree with y'all completely. Who do they think they are to just demand us to smile – often times using a rude ( or yes! condescending) tone of voice? One guy was really belligerent about it, mocking me and asking me what kind of "Midol mood" was I in. ??? Wth? Whatever schooling in pickup lines these guys have is waay off. I hope there aren't very many women who are that naive to think they're 'just being nice'. In my experience, guys will use just about anything to find an opening and many of them aren't so "nice" when we don't boost their egos. I don't make eye contact anymore and when the inevitable crappy line is directed at me, I either ignore, snort or sneer. It works sometimes. I guess some guys are too ignorant to know when there's no chance.ReplyCancel
When someone tells me to smile I say with a straight face, ok tell me a joke.ReplyCancel