text:
Type: Bug
Status: Closed
Priority: Blocker
Resolution: Fixed
Affects Version/s: 2.1.2, 2.2
Fix Version/s: 2.1.3
Component/s: Backup
Testing Instructions:
Log in as admin Select an existing course or create new course. Backup an existing/new course (settings -> backup) Restore this course as new course Start restore process (settings -> restore -> click on restore link) Confirm details (Press continue) Restore as a new course (In top section "Restore as a new course" select a category and click continue), it should show notification. Click continue. On settings screen press Cancel and on confirmation screen press cancel Make sure no new hidden course is created. Repeat first 3 steps and now complete restore process by clicking next and you should see a new course.
- Log in as admin
- Select an existing course or create new course.
- Backup an existing/new course (settings -> backup)
- Restore this course as new course
- Start restore process (settings -> restore -> click on restore link)
- Confirm details (Press continue)
- Restore as a new course (In top section "Restore as a new course" select a category and click continue), it should show notification.
- Click continue.
- On settings screen press Cancel and on confirmation screen press cancel
- Make sure no new hidden course is created.
- Repeat first 3 steps and now complete restore process by clicking next and you should see a new course.
Affected Branches:MOODLE_21_STABLE, MOODLE_22_STABLE
Fixed Branches:MOODLE_21_STABLE
Pull from Repository:
Pull Master Branch:wip-mdl-27790-modified
Pull Master Diff URL:
I have just restored a 2.0 course in a 2.1 test site and, as well as creating the course from the backup, there is a another course called "Course restoration in progress", which is empty.
Gliffy Diagrams
Issue Links
- caused a regression
MDL-30391 Exceptions thrown during a restore and being mangled and unreadable.
- Closed
- has a non-specific relationship to
MDL-30178 Prevent user to exit restore without finishing the restore process
- Open
MDL-30177 Analyze the exact moment when new course is created in restore process, so that it can be deleted when required.
- Open
MDL-30394 Popup warning is too much information when attempting to restore.
- Closed
- has been marked as being related by
MDL-32547 Configure temporary file deletion, to avoid moodledata/temp/backup filling up the filesystem
- Closed
- will help resolve
MDL-29357 x2 duplicate doesn't delete temp folder
- Closed
- All
- Comments
- Work Log
- History
- Activity
- Links Hierarchy
Yup, this shows to non-logged in visitors in the courses list. Fugly.
Thanks for reporting this.
I've put it on our backlog and promoted it.
In the meantime adding more information, such as replication instructions, fix test instructions, a workaround or even a code solution, will help us and other users.
Seems to be an artifact left behind when a restore doesn't complete 100%.
Some thoughts:
1) Can be made hidden by default
2) Can be deleted immediately on "cancel"
3) Look for places to delete the temp course on failure too.
i'm leaning towards (1) making temporary courses hidden by default after the restore.
There must've been a reason why Eloy left the courses around knowing full well that anyone could re-run the restoration from the backup files. (maybe to report issues?)
(hopefully people trying to arbitrarily access this course during a restore has got nothing to do with this.)
MDL-28453 created to hide the temporary course (as a quick temporary fix).
The big task of possibly not needing a temporary course id (or maybe deleting via cancel) will be dealt with here.
Hi guys,
Just a bit of info on this issue.
The `Course restoration in progress` course is created during a restore as soon as the restore controller is needed which is round about step 2.
If for any reason the restore is not completed then this course remains. A problem during restore such as permissions errors, or simply the user failing to complete the restore (closing the browser) lead to this orphaned course.
As mentioned by Apu, the course is now created as a hidden course which aids the problem however it is more of a band aid than a complete solution.
From memory when the restore was being worked on we discussed how we might deal with unwanted courses leading from incomplete restores and the following solution is what was settled on.
During the cron routine where we clean up old backup + restore controllers from the backup_controllers table we could look for incomplete controllers and then check the associated courseid and remove if the course has not been touched since the restore. These checks are really just going to be checking that the course hasn't been repurposed (by a user or another restore attempt). This is a less drastic change requiring just an improvement of our cron routine, however it has the disadvantage that courses will still exist until the next cron run cleans up backup controllers.
Eloy does this ring bells with you?
If you are still happy with the solution being in this form let me know and I'll start work on it.
I think that Sam's comment for remainining "in progress" courses (aka, unfinished controllers) can help for sure. But with some clarifications:
1) When restoring to new course ($restore->execute())... surely we could try/catch the whole restore execution and, on exception, safely delete that course. We know it is a new one, just created.
2) Obviously 1) is not applicable to restore operations done against existing courses, those should not be deleted.
3) After 1) and 2) we can utilize Sam's approach above, just to delete remaining ones if the problem didn't happen in $restore->execute() but in another point. But once again, only when restoring to new course.
4) In any case, we should try to get as much info as possible when the error happens because the goal is to minimize such failures to a minimum and surely there are more and more prechecks that we can execute and / or UI bugfixes in order to pre-detect wrong situations that will lead to error (and phantom courses). Surely this point is worth another issue.
Just my 2cents. Ciao
Are you also removing the visible notice about the restore from the front in this fix?
Hi, it's looking great some comments:
A) Trivial: I would not use "AND bc.status < " (minor) but different instead, we don't know if tomorrow we'll be creating new statuses with other values.
B) Trivial: The sortorder and timecreated conditions seem a bit unnecessary (do not add anything IMO).
C) The cron deletion: I think we should keep that 100% out. There is no way to know what has happened between the execution of the restore and the execution of the cron. Perhaps the teacher has edited the course and performed other restore operations on it, or has added activities, or has been reused by the admin to create another course... Basically we only can guarantee that the deletion is safe when it happens under the life of the controller, aka, on restore exception and on user cancel. Out of there, any deletion can lead to serious problems. So my -1 for the cron part.
And that's all. About the JS bits I cannot say much, sure they work as expected. Thanks!
Thanks for the feedback Eloy.
Can you please suggest what can be an alternative for point A. Well, I can remove this check as well, because we are calling cleanup only form controller and making sure that it's creating new course. So probably bc.status check can be removed as well.
Also, I will be looking at this again to see if course creation can be moved in execution. I tried that before, but it seems very complex. Will give it a try again
I'm not terribly pleased with the prospect of the temporary course being left behind if the user just shuts the browser, if their computer crashes, if they reboot, it they lose their Internet connection, if their session times out etc. I realize its complicated however all we're doing is shifting responsibility from us to the user who really shouldn't have to worry about cleaning up stuff that was created automatically.
"There is no way to know what has happened between the execution of the restore and the execution of the cron. Perhaps the teacher has edited the course and performed other restore operations on it, or has added activities, or has been reused by the admin to create another course..."
This problem is even worse for an actual human being in a large institution. If you're an admin or one of many teachers and you come across a bunch of temp courses you also have no way to tell which you can safely delete.
What about something like adding a flag somewhere, maybe a column in the course table, that indicates that it is a temporary course. When the flag is set we display a big warning on the course page sayings "this is a temporary course" and make the course read only from the UI. Then cron can safely remove any courses with that flag set after a given period of time has passed.
If we must stick with this current scheme the English in this string isn't quite right.
$string['confirmnewcoursecontinuequestion'] = 'A temporary (hidden) course will be created for restoration process, please do not close browser. If you donot want to continue later use cancel button';
Should probably be something like this.
$string['confirmnewcoursecontinuequestion'] = 'A temporary (hidden) course will be created by the course restoration process. To abort restoration click cancel. Do not close the browser while restoring.';
Thanks for the feedback Andrew
String has been modified as per your suggestion. Putting it back for peer-review, so that Eloy can provide some more inputs.
After talking to Eloy, we decided:
- apply current patch fixing the ones under "restore controller". (cancels + exceptions)
- prevent user execution stop from the browser. (subtask)
- analyze the exact moment when we are creating the course and its life (subtask).
Having 2 and 3 as subtask will be more safer to make sure correct course gets deleted.
Carrying this over to the current sprint as it is still in progress.
Hi Rajesh, i was just having a look through this :-
1) i don't know how likely but we need to note that public function cancel_restore() --> public function cancel_process() is a killer for STABLE branches. There could be class abc extends restore_ui out there that we would end up devastating comment?
2) please create the sub-tasks mentioned
3) we need a good string of test instructions for this.
4) i assume we're not doing any clean up for the temporary courses that people may already have ( admin's responsibility ? )
Thanks for pointing that Aparup,
I have added cancel_restore function to avoid any regression. Added required subtasks and added test instructions.
Yes, we are not doing any cleanup as we can't be sure if the course is a temporary course and has been modified since it was created and cron was run. This should be handled by MDL-30177
Hi Raj,
With regards to the STABLE patch, i don't think we even need to wrap cancel_restore within cancel_process, it seems that the wrapping is totally redundant for 21_STABLE. It is perfectly fine and bc staying as cancel_restore() alone. I'm not even sure for the pressing need to rename the function in master but lets not add wrappers to functions that don't do anything real for STABLE. That said, I'm happy to integrate this once we do away with the redundant wrapping in STABLE.
Thanks for comment Aparup,
During cancellation of restore process, every stage call cancel_process except settings stage (where cancel_restore is called).
So if user cancels restore on settings stage cancel_restore will clean the temporary course and if it's called from review stage cancel_process has to clean temporary course.
There are two ways to solve it:
- Have both the functions and do the same job of cleaning and redirecting.
- Use clean_restore for all the stages.
Please suggest what is expected in stable branch.
FYI: Base class base_ui has cancel_process, so according to my understanding, course should be cleaned in cancel_process.
ok spoketo Raj, we're going with the wrapper, this is required so that we purposefully override base_ui's cancel_process(). we'll keep cancel_restore() as a wrapper to cancel_process()i the restore class for bc in stable.
Sorry guys but I disagree with the solution at all. From the user's point of view, the new message is just confusing. If I am the user who just chose to restore to a new course, the message "A temporary (hidden) course will be created by the course restoration process." is nothing but confusing. Let me also query triaging this as a blocker. How does it block Moodle features?
Yes, you got this finally upstream, just in time for Moodle 2.2beta. Congrats and thanks!
Hi David,
- 'disagree with solution at all' means entire solution disagreement or just the string (perhaps we don't really need that popup or could rephrase it? i did find it slightly 'Too much info'-ish )
- i agree with your comment about triaging this incorrectly.
Hi guys,
Sorry but I have to agree with David, for sure that dialogue warning is more confusing that what is actually going on.
I really think we should consider removing that dialogue.
In a related matter (and how I ended up here) I have opened a new bug
MDL-30391 which is a regression caused by these changes.
The exceptions that get thrown now by restore get horribly mangled.
Thanks Everyone for pointing that.
I think, if we are not willing to have a dialog, then it should go in user docs to make sure user knows the consequence of existing the process.
There is hardly any code left in the patch to remove, Eloy
It do make sense to modify docs, then to add dialog and irritate people.
Thanks to David, for raising this
Not sure if this needs to be a new bug or not, but in backup/util/dbops/restore_dbops.class.php line ~1347 function create_new_course, there is a comment saying // forcing skeleton courses to be hidden instead of going by $category->visible , until
MDL-27790 is resolved.
Seeming this has now been resolved, should we fix this up to use $category->visible instead?


text:
On the Third Night of Chanukah My True Love Gave to Me . . .
. . . another Chanukah video to help celebrate the holiday!
A Chanukah Video Highlight
"The Latke Song (by Debbie Friedman)"
December 03, 2010: The 3rd Night of Chanukah
Remember – You can check out a new holiday video each day right here or check out our Chanukah Video page for past video highlights.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
|U.S. Department of Transportation
|Federal Highway Administration
|INFORMATION: Issuance Major Project Guidance
|January 19, 2007
|J. Richard Capka
Reply to
Attn. of :
|Division Administrators
On August 10, 2005, the President signed into law the new surface transportation act, the "Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act : A Legacy for Users" (SAFETEALU) (Pub.L . 109-59, 119 Stat . 1144). The requirement for the Project Management Plan and an Annual Financial Plan are contained in Section 1904(a) of SAFETEA-LU . This provision amends 23 U.S .C . 106(h), as follows:
Issuance of Final Guidance
The FHWA issued Interim Major Project Guidance on January 27, 2006. In response to feedback received on the interim guidance, we have revised and reformatted the guidance to address the issues and concerns that were expressed. This final guidance was developed in close consultation with several FHWA Division Offices and States to ensure it was informed by the knowledge and experience of those who are most familiar with these day-to-day responsibilities. This material is intended to be a tool to assist FHWA field offices in fulfilling current law.
We appreciate the feedback that many of you provided. It has assisted FHWA to expand our role beyond the traditional oversight to ensure that the organization is well positioned to make certain Major Projects are delivered in a manner that captures the public's trust and confidence in the State and Federal transportation agencies' ability to effectively and efficiently deliver a quality product. The public must perceive that the finished product was a wise investment of the very substantial amount of public resources.
One significant change that is made with this final guidance is moving the requirement for submission of a project management plan from the beginning of the NEPA phase to the end of the NEPA phase. This was done to allow time for the project to be better defined through the NEPA decisionmaking process before a formal document was prepared. However, this change does not suggest that there is a decreased emphasis on good management of the project during the planning and environmental phases. In order to ensure proper attention to project management during these early phases, the FHWA Division Offices are asked to utilize the attached document, Risk Management Tool for Managing the Planning/Environmental Phases of Prospective Major Projects, to engage the State Transportation Agencies in project management discussions. The divisions should prepare an analysis similar to the example prior to the beginning of the NEPA phase of each anticipated Major Project.
This guidance references several other documents that are posted on the Major Projects Web site. These are Project Management Plan Guidance, Finance Plan Guidance and Cost Estimating Guidance. We encourage you to review this guidance, as well as these other documents carefully, and then meet with your States to discuss it.
Again, we hope this information is helpful. Should you have any questions, please feel free to contact Dwight Horne (202-366-5530), Rodney Barry (202-366-1561), or Gloria Shepherd (202-366-0106).
FHWA Major Project Guidance
Risk Management Tool for Managing the Planning/Environmental Phases of Prospective Major Projects
cc: Associate Administrators
Directors of Field Services


text:
This B- list mostly movie actress is still married. She and her celebrity husband have definitely hit a rough patch. Part of the reason might be the fling she is having with her publicist. The two are inseparable.
Paula Patton
it's the publicist's baby then huh?? should be due by now.ReplyCancel
When will these awful people disappear? Hasn't it been 15 minutes?ReplyCancel
That poor guy. Suffering through a relationship with a filthy cheating spouse. I am glad he found the courage to leave.ReplyCancel
Getit girl!ReplyCancel
We are assuming its a guy?ReplyCancel
Glad she found someone. Its not fun being married to a jerk.ReplyCancel
The publicist looks a lot like Thicke. People do tend to go for the same physical type, over and over again.ReplyCancel
She's supposed to be a casting couch queen.ReplyCancel
Please, they obviously had an agreement that women were fair game, demonstrated by their alleged frequent 3sums, but she she decided that their marriage and arrangement meant nothing to her when she went out chasing dick. Poor Robin. It must really hurt to be disrespected like that.ReplyCancel
I think they had a open relationship as long as there was no public embrassment, like alot of HW "couples".ReplyCancel
They were also supposed to have crazy anything goes parties.ReplyCancel
HEy A.C. I thought Jerkula was joking? Maybe not.ReplyCancel
For years it was speculated she was the one running around. And that she only married him due to his father's connections. It's only in the last few years the heats been in him. Interestingly, it's a publicist she is cheating with. Gotta control the spin.ReplyCancel
Good god man. Put a tampon in and pull it together.ReplyCancel
I think the sarcasm was airborne on that one A.C. it's good that you didn't catch it though.ReplyCancel
It just took me 15 minutes to remember who she isReplyCancel
WHAT A.C.???? Say it isn't so!!!ReplyCancel
I was thinking the exact same thing.ReplyCancel
If y'all keep cock blocking my trolling, I'm going to have to find a different gossip site.ReplyCancel
Team Get Some, gurrrl.ReplyCancel
No please stay!! I need all the porn and lube whore advice I can get!!ReplyCancel
@Sugarbread: Gun Oil. A buddy who works in a midwest porn shop says the gays travel many miles to but it there. Comes in Silicone and water based. I guess the water based would be better for vag sex.
LOL! When I just Googled it, I saw they have it at CVS now.
@Yoj: 7 is the wholesome Yin to my scumbag Yang.
@Jordan: That is what I was going for. If I was a little more of a lunatic, I would save quotes from the broads here badmouthing male cheaters and repost em for tales of female cheaters. Would be great to catch someone arguing with their own words.ReplyCancel
it's at cvs?? great i can use my rewards card for butt lube.. awesome!!!ReplyCancel
Poor Paula is not so much a victim.ReplyCancel
When I said fuck his ass I was referring to how her actions would affect Robin (fuck his ass over – go get some for yourself). Then again my comment could be taken many different ways. I hope Miss Paula is taking it, giving it and getting it all the ways she pleases.ReplyCancel


text:
Watch President VanWagoner's Athletics Vlog
MVCC offers one of the most extensive, diverse, and successful two-year college intercollegiate athletic programs in the entire country.
MVCC prides itself on the overall depth and well-roundedness of its entire athletic program. There are a wide variety of individual (12) and team (10) sports for men and women. The diversity of the program (11 sports for men and 11 for women) virtually assures any interested student that there is the opportunity to participate in the sport of their interest at MVCC. The majority of the coaching staff are full time employees of the college and are here to help each athlete grow and develop both in skill and as an individual. The entire college community is excited by the achievements of our athletes sending many teams and individuals to regional and national competitions and triumphs.
Athletic Director-Gary Broadhurst
Jan 17, 2013
Gary Broadhurst is in his thirty-fourth year at Mohawk Valley Community College and is currently the Associate Dean of Athletics & Physical Education. He directs one of the most extensive, diverse, and successful two year college intercollegiate athletic programs in the country. Under his leadership the Hawks have captured 17 NJCAA National Championships while finishing second an additional 12 times; 48 Region III Championships with 43 runner-up finishes; and 91 Mountain Valley Conference Titles. Under his guidance MVCC student athletes have been selected as NJCAA All-Americans 375 times, 885 have been recognized as All-Region and an astounding 128 have been individual NJCAA National Champions. Six student athletes have been selected as NATYCAA Scholar Athlete of the Year; more than any other institution in the nation and twenty-one have been chosen for the SUNY Chancellor's Scholar Athlete of the Year. The Hawks won the inaugural NATYCAA Cup in 2004 in the non-scholarship division and have never finished lower than eighth in the history of the national award recognizing excellence at the national level of competition in comprehensive athletic programs.
Broadhurst is the Women's Regional Director of Region III of the NJCAA. He previously served as the Chair of the region's Board of Directors for over ten years. He is primary author of numerous policy statements, documents, and procedural operations during his tenure on the Board. Among these was the creation of the Region III Director's Cup; an award that recognized excellence and diversity in broad based intercollegiate programs. The Hawks have won the award twice and never finished lower than third place in the region. He has also has served as the treasurer for the Mountain Valley Collegiate Conference since 1998.
Broadhurst is actively involved in national professional organizations. He is the immediate President of the National Alliance of Two Year College Athletic Administrators. During his presidency NATYCAA is celebrated its 25th anniversary as the only professional organization that represents all two year institutions of higher education in the United States for athletic administrators. He is the current Treasurer of NATYCAA. He has also served on the Executive Committee of the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics. NACDA is the professional and educational association for more than 6,500 athletics administrators at more than 1,600 institutions throughout the United States, Canada, and Mexico. He also serves on the New York State SUNY Athletics Oversight Committee.
Broadhurst has been the recipient of numerous awards during his career including the NACDA Northeast Athletics Director of the Year; 2007 and 2012, the SUNY Chancellor's Award for Excellence in Professional Service, and was selected by his peers for the inaugural NJCAA Region III Athletic Director of the Year.
In addition to his athletic duties as Associate Dean, Broadhurst also administers a comprehensive physical education curriculum at Mohawk Valley. Holding the rank of Professor he is responsible for the curriculum development and faculty for the Physical Education, Recreation & Leisure Services, Sports Medicine, and Coaching Certificate programs. He also oversees the operation of the Robert R. Jorgensen Athletic/Events Center; an 112,000 square foot facility housing a field house, performance gymnasium, fitness center, athletic training facility, student athlete success center, pool, racquetball courts, yoga/aerobics studio, and multi-exercise room.
Broadhurst began his career at MVCC in 1979 as a Technical Assistant. He was promoted to the faculty ranks in 1988 before his appointment as Director of Athletics in 1996. During his tenure he served as head coach of men's basketball, women's basketball, men and women's bowling, softball, and golf programs. He has taught almost every course in the department's curriculum; including several certification courses in the American Red Cross, American Heart Association, and National Safety Council organizations. He is recognized by the State Education Department as certified instructor in the state's coaching certificate curriculum. He is also a Certified Pool Operator.
A graduate of Sauquoit Valley Central School, Broadhurst began his post-secondary education at Mohawk Valley Community College in 1973 before completing both his B.S.E. and M.S.E. degrees at SUNY Cortland. He resides in Sauquoit with his wife of 33 years, Joan and is the proud father of two adult children, Rachel and Gary.
(315) 792-5573


text:
This Just In ...
Kevin Fischer is a veteran broadcaster, the recipient of over 150 major journalism awards from the Milwaukee Press Club, the Wisconsin Associated Press, the Northwest Broadcast News Association, the Wisconsin Bar Association, and others. He has been seen and heard on Milwaukee TV and radio stations for over three decades. A longtime aide to state Senate Republicans in the Wisconsin Legislature, Kevin can be seen offering his views on the news on the public affairs program, "InterCHANGE," on Milwaukee Public Television Channel 10, and heard filling in on Newstalk 1130 WISN. He lives with his wife, Jennifer, and their lovely young daughter, Kyla Audrey, in Franklin.
Angry Notre Dame fans, send e-mails to Kirk Herbstreit
As a devout Catholic and Notre Dame Fighting Irish fan, I never get too upset when the Notre Dame detractors (haters) spew their jealousy on national television.
This morning during the ESPN College Football Gameday, Kirk Herbstreit....
(so-so college QB.....
.....he never played in the pros, and he's a so-so ESPN analyst) picked
Final score:
Notre Dame 31
Notre Dame would have won by a bigger margin if not for a couple of turnovers that led to two BC field goals.
High school defense, Kirk?
Tonight, Notre Dame's "high school defense" gave up 269 total yards against
Kirk Herbsteit's alma mater,
Notre Dame haters, keep it up. You will never take away the rich history and deep pride associated with this great institution.
Gee, Kirk, you kinda looked like a wussy high school QB on that play.
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text:
Trade Iginla and Other Thoughts
Kent Wilson
December 01 2011 10:04AM
I asked the questions in the Flamesnation quarter pole roundtablem but I didn't get to share my own thoughts on Flames and the season at hand. Now is as good a time as any.
End of an Era
On perhaps the most pressing debate in Flames circles today, plant me firmly in the "trade Iginla" camp. I'll build my argument around a comment made by Jeff Lebowski in the recent Stoking the Fire (mostly because it's a convenient starting point, not to pick on Jeff in particular) -
Trading Iggy and/or Kipper is the stupidest notion. You need Kessel type return to impact this franchise and no team will give that compensation. You can not get adequate return for what Iggy and Kipper mean to the integrity of this team.
It's not 2004 anymore folks. Iginla and Kipper are two players in their mid-thirties with a handful of years left on their contracts who are drifting inevitably from their peaks - peaks that are quite obviously in the past. They aren't going to be in Calgary forever and they aren't pieces you build around anymore. The Iginla/Kipper epoch of the Flames history is pretty much in it's denouement.
Calgary has finished 10th in the west two years in a row and are set to do so again this season. I'm not going to advocate the club trade Iginla for anything, but this notion that he and Kipper are integral to the success of this team is nonsense (what success?). The Flames current quest isn't to retain the doddering stars of yesteryear. It is to find new stars.
Try this exercise: project what the Flames will look like in the summer of 2013 (that's the summer after next). Jarome will be 36 and a free agent. Kipper will be 37 with one year left on his deal. Tanguay will be 35.
A transition is coming one way or the other. The team can either try to leverage depreciating assets like Iginla and Kipper for a return or they can keep them around and let them drift away for nothing, Markus Naslund/Matts Sundin style.
- Of course, I'm talking ideally and from a position comfortably outside the org. In reality, all the noise coming from the management office indicates the Flames have no interest in trading Jarome and that he's here to stay. I think this stance comes from a couple of directions:
1.) PR - No one in the upper offices wants to be the guy who chose to trade one of the best players to ever don the Flames jersey. Moving folk heroes is tricky business - both the return and the optics need to be just right. As such, it looks to me like the club is setting it up so Iginla essentially has to be the guy to make the decision - then none of the suits can be made to look like the bad guy.
2.) Marketing - Iginla remains the most marketable face on the Flames roster and his absence would create a giant sucking vacuum on the roster in terms of selling the club. The decision makers may be reluctant to actively shop Jarome until they can find another player to take his place as "face of the franchise".
A New Hope?
Speaking of which, Sven Baertschi may become that guy if he continues to tear through junior. He currently boasts the best point-per-game pace in the entire CHL (2.37/game); a pace that would see him finish with 156 points in 66 games. Last year he scored 85 in 66 for context.
I've been tracking Baertschi's point totals across game states and the kid has 24 even strength points, 20 on the PP and one SH. He started the year out mostly cashing in with the man advatage, but has been killing it at five-on-five recently (10 ES points in four games).
It's worth noting that the Winterhawks are a very high scoring team which is obviously helping Baertschi post his numbers. It's also unlikely he'll continue on such a torrid scoring rate: last year no WHL player managed more than 116 points for instance. However, if he can post more than one ES point-per-game and finishes with more than 100 points this year, those are two big arrows pointing in the right direction for him.
Of note: I believe the last time a Flames pick scored 100+ points in junior was Cory Stillman (6th overall) all the way back in 1990-91. Matt Lombardi pulled a 130-point season out in his final year of junior, but that's far more common for 20-year olds and is therefore less notable. Jarrett Stoll is the only other guy who kind of qualifies: he managed 106 in his 18-year old season for the Kootenay Ice. THe Flames failed to sign him though and he re-entered the draft in 2002 where he was drafted by Edmonton. Calgary returned the favor by picking Lombo, who had been an Oilers pick two years earlier as well.
- Where ever you fall on the trade Iginla debate, I think we can all agree that Rene Bourque needs to be moved. It pains me to admit that because I was a tireless Rene Bourque booster prior to his re-signing, but the dude has absolutely fallen off a cliff since he inked his long-term deal and he's trending in the wrong direction. Last year, he played with Jokinen in a semi-shut down role so his near team worst possession and scoring chance differentials were somewhat justified and it was worth waiting to see if he would bounce back this season.
No such luck. In fact, he's a few miles worse. He still lags behind just about everyone on the club in terms of driving the play by both chances and possession, except this year his assignment is a lot easier with Glencross/Jokinen/Iginla/Tanguay seeing the lion's share of tough match-ups. That has left Bourque mostly to bat clean-up and he's completely struck out: worst relative corsi amongst regulars, awul scoring chance ratio, middling competition and the easiest zone start situation (54%) this side of PL3. Getting beat up by other teams top-lines is one thing - utterly failing to take advantage of easy minutes is another.
Whatever the teams plans - be it rebuild, re-tool, status quo...Bourque needs to go. He's a detriment on the ice and his contract is going to be exposed as an albatross very soon.
- As far as I can tell, the Flames are probably slightly better than their record indicates so far but have taken a step backwards from where they were last year. I think they are likely to claw their from the depths of the western conference basement, but not much farther. Last year they could have made the post-season as an 8th seed and it wouldn't have been grossly out of line with their real talent level. Unless something drastically changes this season, though, 10th fits the Calgary Flames like a glove.
- Around the NHL, the most surprising coach firing for me so far is Randy Carlyle. The Ducks definitely suck, but I'm not sure there's anything more he could have done about the situation. The problem this year so far is Cory Perry is not running hot and Jonas Hiller is not constantly bailing the club out with a sky-high SV%. The roster is puddle deep and Carlyle was one of the more active bench managers in the league. It will be interesting to see what Boudreau does in his place, since his use of Washington's assets seemed far more middle-of-the-road.
At this point, if the club doesn't enter a "rebuild" mode, I find it somewhat unreasonable to move Iginla. Kipper - easier to swallow by far. In fact with Schneider becoming available (possibly) soon, it may be worth it to shrug off Kipper's contract. I'd be happy to ride a Mike Smith type goaltender until the latter period of a rebuild. That all being said, Iginla or a serious prospect+ or a couple first rounders, and the Flames should be taking a good serious hard look at it.
December 01 2011, 10:18AM
Just HAAADD to go there eh Kent? I just dont know about the whole "trade Iginla" sentiment. The return would likely piss just about everyone off, and though I would hate to see a 'secondary scorer' make 7 million, he's still the best we've got. I still hold that he could be part of a rebuild, at half his salary.
On Baertschi, did you read that prospectus on him?
I tend to agree with a lot of what's said there - there's a lot to like there, but expectations stemming from domination in junior have to be tempered. I hope he pans out to be a first line guy, I could see him becoming an Eberle type based on what I've seen from him..but thats still a very small sample size. On Bork - I couldnt agree more, I think he's always had somewhat of a "who gives a f*ck" attitude on the ice, but I think that's also been compounded with a subconscious fear of injury, in short I think he's playing scared. I think a lot of people here are overvaluing the kids coming up. Suffice to say we don't have the "kid" line in our system. We really DO need to hunt for a future franchise guy, whether its fishing for a top 5 pick or trying to land the big fish UFA (Parise please)..
I also hope they land quite far from 10th in the West.
December 01 2011, 10:21AM
Great read as usual, I was really surprised tht the ducks fired there bench boss, he has constantly proven he can get the job done with below average players not named Geztlaf ///Perry /Ryan. Those three players along with hiller lead the team to a good season last year and I wouldn't mind getting rid of sutter and getting Carlyle. Maybe tht way we could also try to pick up Ryan for maybe a bourque +prospect and pick or maybe possibly even trade iggy to acquire Ryan. He ccould be the next building block and help with a rebuild
December 01 2011, 10:24AM
Do you think the Ducks were making a choice between Carlyle and Ryan? Do you think Ryan stays now?
Ducks had to make that call. Had Boudreau not been available, I'm not sure Carlyle gets fired yet, but that team needed a change.
I don't get this notion that "you can't fire good coaches". Coaches have shelf lives. They just do. When hockey isn't fun (see Carlyle's Ducks or Sutters' Flames), you NEED to bring a new voice in to 'freshen' things up. The same can be said vice versa (see Flames that Darryl took over - they NEEDED that guy, now they NEED to get away from that type).
Anyways, I called Boudreau to Ducks 46 hrs ago... so I'm obviously a genius.
Bang on RE: Iginla, Kipper & Bourque, Kent. Time to move on.
I notice you did not call these "random"
I think it's always important to have your eye on a core group.... not "THE core".
Who WAS our core? Iggy, Kipper (is about all that's left)
Who IS our core (the ones who will (may) be there when we return to being contenders in 4-6 years earliest)
Gio, Jbo, GlenX, RBQ, Backlund, Comeau and the youngsters. Your '82 and later birth years.
If you don't like the '82 or later core...that's fine! (I don't like parts), but thinking that Kipper and Iggy (irrespective of how good/bad they are) are part of a competitive core is delusional.
We still have a pretty good core, but we've got to stop reliving the past achievements of "THE core"
If you can trade Kipper or Iggy and improve our competitive core... do it, if not.... probably not.
December 01 2011, 10:50AM
trade anyone or everyone, and can butter. the rebuild needs to begin now. replace kk and the lot as well.poor drafting, no player development and no committment to winning has resulted in todays pathetic club. 2 drafted players in a lineup the other evening, gawd thats a joke.
In regards to Bourque, I think you have to get rid of him, if only to free up his salary with the rest of the salary dump next year, and because this team loves to run at the 50 player maximum, giving no leeway. I don't think it matters what the return is. I'd rather have the roster spot open for a younger guy to not play on the 4th line.
As for Iggy and Kipper, if they want to stay, you have to let them stay. All the goodwill built up in having these players play here will be wasted if there is a botched trade (most likely outcome with King pulling the trigger).
If things are handled properly, and we get a Parise for the top line next year, the transition for iggy to go from top line next year, to 2nd line the year after is in place. And we can eat the extra salary for that year, becuase he is a UFA after that.
As for Kipper, if this team doesn't have a suitable replacement (Irving?) for next year, I think we need to take a run at schnieder, or Lindback, or Enroth to plan for the future. I don't know when Lindback or Enroth are FA's, but they should be on the radar.
Well put Kent, the Iginla era was what it was and is now over, time to move on and trading Iginla helps do that.
I can see KK telling the owners, "but if we move Iginla, that's our #1 best-selling jersey gone and that creates X $/year." Which, it appears, is all this ownership really cares about anyways. Just average enough to sell hope and fill seats to sell jerseys and beer.
As far as Iginla and the team each trying to have the other side make the first move in reagrds to a move - how old are these guys? Go sit down together and come to a decision already. This idiotic game of chicken they're playing right now is unprofessional, childish, small-minded and detrimental to the team now and in the future.
Time for this club to sell 'team' and not 'icon.'
Man, I can't believe I had Baertschi rated at about 20 now. Impossible to say how he does in the NHL, but right now he's looking like a steal.
Not sure Carlyle would be the way to go for a coaching change. I think he's a great coach, but he largely has the same approach, values, attitude and demeanour as Sutter. It would be the same message in a new package.
@Ross Creek - you are a genius for calling that.
My ideal scenario: Iginla gets moved to the Caps and part of the return involves the Avs pick.
Flames then finish bottom 5 as well. 2 lotto picks in the deepest draft since 2003.
Here's the reality: moving Iginla means a 3 year rebuild. Keeping him and driving the club off the cliff in 1.5 years means the club is forced into an Edmonton-style 6 year rebuild.
Take your pick.
December 01 2011, 11:02AM
I totally agree with you on Carlyle being a bad fit for Calgary right now.
Awesome photo of Iggy and Kipper together.
I guess as a hardcore Flames fan it pains me that both may not win a Stanley Cup as Flames.
I kept thinking that these two would be able to will themselves back to another Stanley Cup final and win. However, four first round exits and two non-playoff appearances are the reality.
If you are going to trade Iggy,try to get a really good return. Nothing of a Phaneuf-Stajan debacle?
You would also get a good return for Kipper as well. However, are Karlsson and Irving ready for prime-time duty?
At least let Iggy score #500 with Calgary and Kipper get win no. 300 before they get moved, if at all. Maybe end of January or February.
All three of those goalies are Restricted free agents, so that'll be tough.
Schneider for sure would probably like to get out of Vancouver, but they also aren't keeping him on the bench, but he's going to be pricey next year.
What could we trade for those guys? Nothing. Vancouver, especially, wouldn't likely deal Schneider to Calgary.
If we traded Kipper (which is likely an option), we'd need to bring a goalie back IMHO... and that, combined with his salary, really limits trade partners.
December 01 2011, 11:27AM
I hated to see Nieuwendyk go in '95 but that trade, unlike so many in Flames history, worked out pretty well. And as much as I love the guy who can play for the same franchise, especially a future HHOF member like Iggy, but I think the Flames franchise is in desperate need of a future face.
Iginla will always be the face of the Flames resurgence and the franchise owes a lot to the guy, but I think we can all agree that Iginla deserves a shot to play for a cup and the Flames' have a black hole for a future, so lets start defining that future by getting something in return.
Its not often I agree with Grant Pollock (http://www.outlawsportstv.com/calgary-flames/jarome-igonela/) but I think he is right in that the Flames may be a year or two late to have gotten a suitable return for a franchise player.
I've had your same "82-and-younger-core" in mind over the last month as well... which is why I've said the only UFA I MIGHT re-sign is Stempniak. They can sign other team's UFA's that are older, but none of their own (although I wouldn't sign anyone over 32).
Take a look at the east and think about who could be making a playoff push that would need a goalie. FLA jumps out at me and could give us a decent return.
Tampa and NYI are the others I can see, but the move doesn't make sense for NYI this year (because they suck) and I think Yzerman is too smart to overpay.
Iggy is a different story and I could see a bidding war happening at the deadline for him. Maybe I'm dreaming though.
December 01 2011, 11:32AM
Awesome photo of Iggy and Kipper together.
I guess as a hardcore Flames fan it pains me that both may not win a Stanley Cup as Flames.
I kept thinking that these two would be able to will themselves back to another Stanley Cup final and win. However, four first round exits and two non-playoff appearances are the reality.
If you are going to trade Iggy,try to get a really good return. Nothing of a Phaneuf-Stajan debacle?
You would also get a good return for Kipper as well. However, are Karlsson and Irving ready for prime-time duty?
At least let Iggy score #500 with Calgary and Kipper get win no. 300 before they get moved, if at all. Maybe end of January or February.
I agree, I'm not convinced that Irving or Karlsson are ready. I would really like to make a trade to aquire a young goalie and hopefully one pans out. I'm thinking an Iggy trade could/should include a Rask, Bernier, Schneider etc. With a greater return I would be ok with Bobrovsky or Neuvirth. Iggy+ to Wash. for Neuvirth, Alzner & COL 1st would be sweet.
Maybe NAS would give up Lindback for Bourque & Moss (or other). I still believe you need goaltending to win so getting a good young goalie for the future core would be a great start.
As for the Bobby Ryan stuff. Is it really over now that they replaced the coach? If they are having financial difficulties, maybe the whole trade idea came from knowing that they would have to eat Carlyle's 3 year contract. Shipping off Ryan would be a way to save some $$$ and balance the costs. If we can work a deal for Neuvirth & Alzner +, we could move Butler, Horak and maybe Bourque. I would even include our 2013 3rd for Ryan.
Our future would look pretty solid with the additions of a good young goalie (Neuvirth), Dman (Alzner)and FWD (Ryan).
I totally agree with you on Carlyle being a bad fit for Calgary right now.
That makes 3 of us. Good coach, wrong team.
December 01 2011, 11:49AM
Make that 4. Read Dave Shoalts article in todays Globe. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/changing-the-coach-takes-away-players-excuses/article2256448/
He makes the point of a coaching style and mentions the grizzled coach, "But a team really in need of a change from taskmaster to worker's friend is the Calgary Flames. Head coach Brent Sutter is the leading proponent of the family creed that there is no fun in hockey." I think this really puts alot into proscpective. Look at what kind of coaches the Flames have had since 2002. D. Sutter - Mean SOB J. Playfair - taskmaster but too soft M. Keenan - wasnt given the name "Iron" Mike for no reason B. Sutter - See D. Sutter.
A few of the solutions offered up here are not realistic. To 'dump' or 'get rid of' means you need to have options to do that. Do you think anyone wants Bourque right now? Do you think Van is pining to unload Schneider? Tukka Rask anyone? Getting younger and faster with Randy Carlysle? At least put some reality in your suggestions. Calgary would not get the return they want for Iggy. The hockey ops may do OK unloading Iggy but the business of the Calgary Flames would suffer greatly. The people who don't post or read these blogs are the masses and they want stars. Until you have a replacement star in the making, you need to wait. That said, Kipper and Iggy should not leave with the team in a crap state. Get it rising and let them be part of the handing of the torch. It's ok to lose for a while. We're getting a bit used to it right now.
December 01 2011, 12:07PM
The Flames 2-4 lines looks very good going into the future. A second line of Baertschi-Backlund-Nemisz will be decent. A third line of Glencross-Reinhart-Comeau should be an effective two-way line. We also have players like Ferland, Arnold, Gaudreau, and Granlund that could step up as well if any of those players don't turn out.
The Flames D is marginal but decent depending on what you think of Bouwmeester, Giordano, Butler, and Brodie. Wotherspoon, Leach, and Ramage may prove to be decent NHLer. The Flames should have the cap space to bring on a top 4 D if required.
The Flames Goaltending is a question mark but hopefully Karlsson or Irving proves to be starting material. We also have Ortio and Brossoit in the system, though a few years away from playing. But you can usually find an NHL starter if you have the cap space, and we should.
But that leaves us without a top line. As Kent says Iginla and Tanguay are already past their prime and are already getting beat up by other teams top lines. And we have been looking for a 1C for years now.
I think you need to trade players like Tanguay, Bourque, Kipper, and Iggy to attempt to address the top positions.
I like players like Baertschi and Backlund. But lets face it, Baertschi-Backlund-Iginla isn't going to look too hot against Hall-Hopkins-Eberle during the 2014 battle of Alberta.
For the past number of years, management has made a decision not to enter into a rebuilding mode, which means they made a decision not to trade players like Iggy and Kipper for 'future' assets.
Simply put, Iggy and Kipper are rapidly declining assets, and their current value is a fraction of what could have been obtained two or three years ago.
Managements failure to understand the hockey world has cost us double, 1/ a Kessler type return for the asset, 2/ because we stayed in the middle of the pack (by keeping them) top 3 or top five draft picks.
Assume, you traded Iggy two years ago for two high end prospects / first round picks, and by moving Iggy the team finished bottom 5........ we could have had 2 top five picks plus the return on Iggy...
Dismal asset management
December 01 2011, 12:17PM
Why do so many people actually think that Parise is a lock to sign in Calgary next summer? There's no chance, none, notta, zip, nil.
I'm pretty sure Parise follows the NHL. With the current position the Flames are in, why would he want to sign with a team that is about to enter a full rebuild?
December 01 2011, 12:20PM
Why do so many people actually think that Parise is a lock to sign in Calgary next summer? There's no chance, none, notta, zip, nil.
I'm pretty sure Parise follows the NHL. With the current position the Flames are in, why would he want to sign with a team that is about to enter a full rebuild?
I don't think anyone really considers Parise any kind of lock. Frankly I think the notion is quite far fetched - doesn't mean I can't hope for it.
December 01 2011, 12:51PM
With Carlyle available, why not try him on the Flames? It'd be nice to have a coach who actually matches lines for once.
December 01 2011, 12:55PM
Clearly not realistic.
However, if the Flames did manage to trade Tanguay/Bourque/Kipper/Babchuk for assets (picks) and then traded those assets plus Iggy to Philly for Schenn and Brobovsky at the deadline (plus a player or two to make the salary work).
Go for the lottery and get Yakupov in the draft. Back the money truck up for Parise.
A quick buy-out of Stajan, demote Karlsson, resign a few RFAs and throw an NHL contract at Holland and all of a sudden you have:
Parise-Schenn-Yakupov; Baertschi-Backlund-Nemisz; Glencross-Reinhart-Comeau; Byron-Horak-Holland
Bouwmeester-Giordano; Butler-Brodie; Smith-Carson
Bobrovsky; Irving
Plus you have 20-million or so in cap space to upgrade your D. Mobile team with four lines capable of offense without sacrificing strong 2-way play. It will be a powerhouse in a season or two.
Will that scenario happen? Of course not. But the Flames need to make aggressive moves this deadline and next off season.
December 01 2011, 01:03PM
I think the Flames are going to need to get aggressive very soon here, you're not going to be able to replace all 12 UFA's in the offseason, and you run the risk of having to re sign some of them. Lets get it going already.
December 01 2011, 01:09PM
Hey Kent, With regard to Iggy and Kipper: My point was they have extreme value to this team but as you note they are older and have fewer productive years in front of them. Teams recognize your point so they won't give the type of return Burke was able to give to acquire Kessel (proven scorer, very young).
Iggy scored 40 goals last year. He is the central cog to Calgary's offense. Kipper has been the saving grace this year. They mean everything to Calgary. Not 2004, today. Granted Iggy is in a slump. So are a lot of good players. The prevailing sentiment of the trade Iggy camp is, this is no slump, he's washed up. His best days are behind him. I don't think this is true. Not on this team. On this team he plays top minutes. He has Crosby's role. Difference maker.
Look around at teams, would Iggy have that role on those teams? What would they give in return? Which type of team would want him? A team with a top 5 draft pick? What do you expect in return? An established young top player? Any first round pick? Look at any teams draft class, how many out of an entire class make it to NHL? There is no certainty. Keeping in mind how Iggy produced last year, how many players in the history of the league score like Iggy has? You're gonna automatically replace that in next years draft? What is the historical return for trades involving players in similar situation to Iggy ie productive player around 35? Look at post 2005 so salary cap and influence of younger players for cheap in league is factored in.
I think the real return on the market would be so underwhelming. That return would have very little chance of making an impact of equal quality to what we have with both of Iggy/Kipper.
If you look at the trade that brought Iggy here: Nieuwendyk left but Fleury was still here (probably some other good players too). The organization is not ready for that today (young players to step up). Calgary would lose all integrity. It would be a nightmare.
I'm sorry, but why are people penciling in guys like Reinhart & Holland for next season. That's quite a bit of a stretch.
December 01 2011, 01:28PM
@Jeff Lebowski
"If you look at the trade that brought Iggy here: Nieuwendyk left but Fleury was still here (probably some other good players too). The organization is not ready for that today (young players to step up). Calgary would lose all integrity. It would be a nightmare."
We're going get there at some point anyway, it's all about how long we are in that situation. Getting a return on Iggy/Kipper can move us quicker through that pain.
I should apologize. I my to start a franchise player, like a Parise, or someone of that ilk. We have the cap space to sign a big name, younger guy, and if one is a UFA we should give it a run to see if we can't land one. If we can't then we can at least look on July 2 for a trade with a team that wants to shed salary. Maybe a Bobby Ryan becomes available at that time.
Philly has alot of picks in this upcoming draft. Anyone think we could do a deadline deal of Iggy to Philly for a 1st and schenn or Coutourier? Or if we are super lucky, we can give them anyother player on the roster and get Giroux in return?
Iggy and Tanguay for a 1st a Giroux?
December 01 2011, 01:48PM
"If you look at the trade that brought Iggy here: Nieuwendyk left but Fleury was still here (probably some other good players too). The organization is not ready for that today (young players to step up). Calgary would lose all integrity. It would be a nightmare."
We're going get there at some point anyway, it's all about how long we are in that situation. Getting a return on Iggy/Kipper can move us quicker through that pain.
I don't believe that. The biggest problem that has affected Calgary since the lockout was the failure to adapt to the evolution of the game.
High end skill lost out to Brandon Prust in the draft philosophy.
Feaster has already changed that (and to be fair Darryl Sutter changed a little too: Backlund but far too late considering Pelech, Chucko etc).
Acquiring more talent can be done without trading Iggy/Kipper. Especially considering the upcoming salary freedom.
The question is what kind of return will you get from Iggy/Kipper. I say, not the kind this team needs to overcome their immediate and near term value.
Detroit has been able to draft exceptionally well while keeping their best assests. Calgary just needs to draft better players and acquire more skill via free agency.
December 01 2011, 01:52PM
That makes 3 of us. Good coach, wrong team.
Make that 4!
December 01 2011, 02:08PM
I'm sorry, but why are people penciling in guys like Reinhart & Holland for next season. That's quite a bit of a stretch.
You have better options to put in the lineup? ;)
Not so sure about Holland, but I think Reinhart is a pretty strong bet to be on the Flames next year.
December 01 2011, 02:14PM
Philly has alot of picks in this upcoming draft. Anyone think we could do a deadline deal of Iggy to Philly for a 1st and schenn or Coutourier? Or if we are super lucky, we can give them anyother player on the roster and get Giroux in return?
I think with the play of Crosby in Pittsburgh, Philly already feels behind the curve, and the 8-ball. They are definitely a team that should be in the market for Iginla. Schenn or Coutourier and a 1st is reasonable, but there is absolutely NO chance of the Flames getting Claude Giroux out of Philly. None whatsoever.
@ Icedawg: I also sincerely hope we don't end up in 10th either, personally I'm still hoping for 13th or worse.
@ RossCreek: Coaches do have a shelf life, unless their names are Barry Trotz or Mike Babcock.
I couldn't agree more that it's time to shop these assets, failure to do so now will only result in more years of missed playoffs down the road, we are at a impass, failure to exit onto rebuild ave will result in a very long stretch on highway # suck. Hopefully while they are at it they rebuild the mgmt core too and start a whole new aged philophy with you know.... a GM that's actually a hockey guy and ins't the Presidents puppet.
Last year would have been a better time to trade iggy when he was worth his cap hit. I don't know how many teams would be willing to take his $7M cap hit for next year with his current performance. I'd like to see Kipper moved as soon as a playoff bound team decides they need a goalie. It helps us move higher in the draft and gives a half-season to see what Irving and Karlson can do in an unmeaningful year anyway.
I'm definitely in the trade-iggy camp, but content to wait until next year when his contract becomes more tradable. If he really does want to stay here instead of take a cup run elsewhere though, he's earned it and I'm fine with that also.
Jarome Iginla, David Moss & Henrik Karlsson to Nashville for Ryan Ellis, Colin Wilson, Patric Hornqvist, Anders Lindback & a 2nd.
Godd? Bad? Ugly?
I would be happy to 'settle' for Schenn, Couts and a 1st. Those guys will be future building blocks you can rely on.
As for your comments regarding PR Kent, didn't Holmgren say a few days before Carter and Richards got traded both of them were not going anywhere? Let's hope we are in the same scenario, no point in showing your cards at the poker table before you make a bet and get called.
December 01 2011, 02:35PM
You have better options to put in the lineup? ;)
Not so sure about Holland, but I think Reinhart is a pretty strong bet to be on the Flames next year.
Thats what I mean - we don't have ANY bluechip prospects still - Baertschi may well be very good, but he will never be a franchise guy.
Probably the trade I like best so far would be:
Iginla + Karlsonn to the Flyers for Schenn, Vorachek(more money would need to come back, he fits the bill as I don't think the Flyers part with anyone else), Bobrovsky and a 1st rounder.
We get a potential #1 in Bob, with a backup in Irving, two good Forwards and a First rounder, probably a later one, but ours will probably be really high so its okay.
@RCN, that trade is good, but I'm not sold, I like Ellis but I don't, I don't mind small D men, but I still don't know if he can do it at an NHL level, if he could, I think Nashville would have him up right now cause they can use more offense.
December 01 2011, 02:53PM
I'd settle for trading Ken King to any willing takers for future considerations.
If there was any season where Flames' fans finally broke faith with Iginla, this would be it. You hear it on overtime, you hear it in sports bars and amongst office sports talk: Jarome Iginla needs to be moved. Does it make sense to trade him now? I don't think so - it would make more sense, in my mind, to move him closer to the trade deadline where teams who are looking to push for a cup run now will be willing to part with their prospects.
Off season changes to management HAS to happen. Is there any possible way we can lure Ken Holland or any other Detroit staff to lend their hockey expertise to our personnel?
December 01 2011, 03:04PM
I don't think you get that much. Perhaps Iggy and Karlsson for Schenn and Bobrovosky. With peices for salary.
I don't think you get that much. Perhaps Iggy and Karlsson for Schenn and Bobrovosky. With peices for salary.
I looked over the roster and I can't seem to find another guy other than Vorachek who would fit the bill to get some more dollars in the deal, can't really take anything from the defence, the other forwards are either guys they don't want to trade or wouldn't really help in the dollars department cause you havd to trade 2 or 3 of them and we are up at 50 contracts.
But Iggy is easily worth Schenn and a First, if Dusting ****ING Penner is worth the D prospect and a First, Jarome Iginla is worth Schenn and a first.
December 01 2011, 03:26PM
Jarome Iginla, David Moss & Henrik Karlsson to Nashville for Ryan Ellis, Colin Wilson, Patric Hornqvist, Anders Lindback & a 2nd.
Godd? Bad? Ugly?
The main issue I see is that Nashville is far from a contender. The Flames may not get the best value from a contender, but I'd still really hate to see him traded to a team equally as bad as, or worse than, Calgary. The rumour mill has stated that Boston would be interested in him, and if that's the case then I'm all for it. They're not the strongest group of skaters, but they're above average on the whole, and Thomas is balls-out amazing. I could see them winning another cup.
Boston? Boston traded away probably their best forward prospect last year to Toronto, what is left that we would want? I know they just drafted Hamilton, but would we want a Dman in return?
Thats the best place to send Iggy if we want to help him win the cup, but for helping the Flames, I don't see what we would get in return to help our offense out.
Proponents of trading Iginla often (rightly) point out that Iginla came to Calgary only at the price of trading Joe Nieuwendyk. That trade was viewed very negatively at the time, but 20/20 hindsight has given it a decidedly rosy glow. However, what actually happened to the team after that trade? One first-round exit and then a seven year playoff drought. Was Al Coates a visionary genius who saw something special in Iginla? Probably not. Iginla was years away from being a viable NHL'er and Coates's hand was forced by Nieuwendyk's demand to be traded. Why did Nieuwendyk want to be traded? Well, the Flames had been gutted and were a shadow of their former selves. The infamous Gilmour trade of '91 saw to that. Why Calgary ever traded another player with Toronto after that is beyond my ken.
Yes, things are very different now with Iginla. Unlike Nieuwendyk, Iginla was never a part of a dynasty like the Flames of the 80's. Sure, that dynasty only won one cup, but that was only because of the Oilers at the zenith of the Gretzky days. Still, Nieuwendyk had a taste of being on an elite team and he clearly wanted more. Iginla has soldiered on with a supporting cast of mediocrities for his entire career and apparently he likes it. He wants to stay. Iginla has never asked to be traded. At least, as far as we know he hasn't...
Iginla has, publicly, never done anything but support a team that, quite frankly, has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a cup before he retires. He's a top competitor though, and on some level he must desperately want a real shot at Lord Stanley's Cup. What hockey player doesn't? The "I want to win the Cup as a Flame" routine might have been good a few years ago, but can he possibly still believe that tired old line? Let's say that there actually is some truth to the rumorus and Iginla actually did step into Feasters office and ask the man to trade him to a cup-contender.
What can we get for Iginla? A cup contender needs their marquee players. We're not going to get any form of currently elite player for Iginla. That's just not going to happen. The whole point of a cup-running team making a trade for Iginla is to make their current team better. The only way to get a currently elite player in return is to trade Iginla+ to a team that isn't making a cup run, and would Iggy wave his NTC for that? No, the only kind of trade that can possibly make sense is one for future potential. Rookies, prospects, and picks. This is a decidedly risky path however, especially for a team with Calgary's record at drafting and developing talent!
There is the notion of renting Iginla out. His contract is up after next season, and he could easily be traded this season or the next with the intention of returning in the Summer of 2013. A cup-contender could get a proven playoff producer without a long-term commitment and the Flames could get some prospects or picks, just for losing Iginla for as little time as between the trade-deadline of 2013 and the playoffs, or a season and change if such a rental is done this year instead. If those season's look like write-offs, why not cash in?
The only thing that is truly certain is that we, as fans, are going to hate any trade involving Iginla. If the trade goes *well* we're going to get players who will not produce short-term and run a risk of not producing even in the long-term. A rental probably will not bring quite the return that a trade with a more long-term commitment would either. Still, I do like the rental scenario, since if the Flames look like they're going to miss the playoffs in 2013 I'd love to see Iginla get one last crack at the cup. Who knows, perhaps what comes our way in such a trade will help the Flames make a cup run while Iginla is a veteran fourth liner winding up his career with the team he loves?
December 01 2011, 03:42PM
I would be happy to 'settle' for Schenn, Couts and a 1st. Those guys will be future building blocks you can rely on.
As for your comments regarding PR Kent, didn't Holmgren say a few days before Carter and Richards got traded both of them were not going anywhere? Let's hope we are in the same scenario, no point in showing your cards at the poker table before you make a bet and get called.
Wow. That would be the trade of the century. No chance Philly would part with both Schenn and Couturier for Iginla. I'd guess they wouldn't part with either.
More realistic from Philly would be something like Matt Read, Matt Carle and a 1st. Maybe, maybe, maybe JVR and Carle and a 2nd.
December 01 2011, 03:48PM
Boston? Boston traded away probably their best forward prospect last year to Toronto, what is left that we would want? I know they just drafted Hamilton, but would we want a Dman in return?
Thats the best place to send Iggy if we want to help him win the cup, but for helping the Flames, I don't see what we would get in return to help our offense out.
If Boston would do Hamilton, I'd take that trade in a second. He's got ridiculous potential, he's huge, great offensively, reasonably fast, and allegedly is good defensively for his age.
At this point the Flames need a great defensive prospect as much as/more than a great offensive one. But even if Hamilton wasn't given up, you combine a couple of guys like Caron and Knight with a 1st round pick and you have a pretty solid return as well.
@Jeff Lebowski
1) Where do you envision the team in 2 years with Iginla still here? Certainly won't be in the playoffs.
2) Is he worth now what he was 2 years ago? No, but plenty of GMs will offer something of value to get a guy who scored 43 goals last year to put them over the top. They'll think on their team, change of scenery, more offense, less pressure, etc. Quality, not quantity. Iginla is worth at least 1 top end prospect or high 1st rounder. At minimum.
3) You wouldn't have moved Iginla last year for Schenn? Really? The Avs 1st this year? No, there's no guarantees, but that's why you have a hockey ops dept. The Flames hockey ops dept. is a debate in and of itself, but it worked when we moved Fleury, Niewuendyk, Nilsson.
4) Would you prefer the Sundin scenario?
5) How do you get this talent you talk about replenishing? Pretending there's other ways than the draft is why the flames are where they are. All the finalists stars are drafted by them and so is basically half of their line-up. You get that one great asset and make it count.
6) Re: salary cap freedom - you still have to replace those roster positions. By the time you do that there's no longer $20 million sitting there for a spending spree and Calgary is no longer a UFA destination of choice and every year teams lock up their impedning UFA's earlier and earlier.
7) Get over it. The Iginla era is dead. It didn't work, won't work when he's 34 and by the time the prospects we do have start to really contribute he'll be 37/38.


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By Brendan Conway
Biotech has just about nothing to do with the D.C. deadlock. But investors lately aren't taking chances. This month, they've sold the high-performing sector and sold it hard. As of Friday, the appetite hasn't much returned.
As the S&P 500 rises 0.5% Friday, iShares Nasdaq Biotechnology ETF (IBB) is down a fraction at $201.42, SPDR S&P Biotech ETF (XBI) is down 0.9% at $119.19 and Market Vectors Biotech ETF (BBH) is ahead by 0.2%. Their YTD gains are in the range of 35%-47%. All three ETFs bounced in Thursday's stock-market levitation.
Look to the week's performance, though, and they're not rebounding as quickly as the broad index. The S&P 500 on Friday hurdled Sept. 26 levels and is within shooting distance of its open on Sept. 18, the day it hit an all-time high. But the iShares ETF is struggling to get back where it was on Monday.
Have investors had their fill? A good many investors must think they're getting out when the sector is well valued. Which is what survey respondents suggested to ISI Group analyst Mark Schoenebaum when he asked this week.
Forty-three percent of the ISI survey respondents — they're long-only managers and hedge funds — said they view the sector as valued about right. 38% call it "overvalued." That's compared to 18% who said biotech is undervalued.
About half the group (47%) said they expect larger biotech stocks to finish the year with single-digit gains, which would be well below their strong YTD performance. The next biggest group (24%) called for flat performance.
Deutsche Bank analysts Robyn Karnauskas and Alethia Young took a different view. They wrote this week that they expect another big year of outperformance in 2014, so they're staying positive on the group amid the recent selloff:


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Includes over 15 million citations for biomedical articles back to 1947. These citations are from MEDLINE and additional life science journals. Includes links to many sites providing full text articles and other related resources.
BIOSIS previews
Issued as a part of the ISI Web of Knowledge, the database covers original research reports and reviews in biological and biomedical areas. Coverage includes traditional areas of biology such as botany, zoology, and microbiology, as well as related fields such as biomedical, agriculture, pharmacology, and ecology. Also included are interdisciplinary fields such as medicine, biochemistry, biophysics, bioengineering, and biotechnology. The database covers content summaries, books, meeting abstracts, papers, and posters. BIOSIS also combines the content from Biological Abstracts and Biological Abstracts/RRM.
MEDLINE (1950 - present)
The database contains bibliographic citations and author abstracts for articles from approximately 3900 current biomedical journals covering the fields of medicine, nursing, dentistry, veterinary medicine, the health care system, and the preclinical sciences.
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Multidisciplinary index to the journal literature of the sciences. Covers 3300 major journals across 100 scientific disciplines. Has searchable author abstracts. Can view article bibliographies and search cited references and authors.
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The women's ABEO SMARTsystem 3540 casual slip-on has the comfort and style you are looking for. Featuring classic leather upper with a stationary strap and a chic silver medallion accent, DRYZ foam, dual density midsole, and of course SMARTsystem™ technology, all combine to provide you with ultimate comfort.


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My daughter is 6 weeks old. I really want to carry as much as possible and feel it is so important but have a hard time knowing when to carry her. For example, after she ate today I wanted to wear her but she got really sleeping and feel asleep in my lap. I still put her in the Ergo. But she got very upset and it took forever to get her back to sleep. Plus she never seems to sleep as well when I wear her as she does when I put her in her crib, etc. So, then I end up with a crabby baby because she doesn't sleep well during the day. IN addition, she really only likes to be worn for about an hour before she gets really fussy and I use the Ergo, the Maya, and sometime the Bjorn. Same situation when we shop. Do I take her out of the car seat or put her in and our of a carrier at every store? Then when she does fall asleep in the carrier I don't konw what to do. I feel like I can't but her down but then I can't do things like shower, etc. I feel like it shouldn't be this stressful. My husband doesn't really get it and is constantly telling me to just try putting her down. I really need some help.
No announcement yet.
how long to wear each day?
new posts
Forum Administrator and Casualty of Love
- Mar 2008
- 1731
dedra---leader, api of stark co., ohio
MomMom and devoted wife to 3 creatures of delight
it is stressful learning about this new person that has entered your life. it takes time for you to figure each other out. the point of babywearing, bfing, and all the other things we do, is to aid in establish attachment, which is the emotional bond between a parent and child. it sounds to me like you're well on your way b/c you are intent on trying to figure things out.
every baby is different. some like being worn more than others. some sleep better in the carrier, others on a flat surface. listen to her cues. if you choose to use a stroller or carseat carrier, be sure to interact w/her often and get involved w/her exploration of the world. as she grows and you become more familiar w/carriers, you may find it easier to pop her in and out of a carrier at each stop.
i know you probably want someone to say 'wear baby 2.25 hours/day for ultimate bonding', but you are her mom and your instincts are better than anyone else's. be confident!
New Forum Member
- Aug 2008
- 125
AMY-bwing, bfing, cosleeping, attached mama to Conner, the love of my life and the best thing that ever happened to me! Born 3/15/2008
I started by wearing my son when I needed to get things done around the house. If you want to do some dishes or whatever, just pop her in the carrier and do what you need to do. My LO likes me to wear him when I vaccuum. Just wear her until she gets fussy and then put her down and you can wear her again later if you want to. I always wear my LO when I go to the store. I try to group errands together that are close by each other so I can walk to them because I hate taking my son in and out of car seat and carrier too especially if he's asleep. I also wear him when I go for walks. I love wearing my baby, it's my favorite thing. It should be enjoyable to both of you, so do what is comfortable for you both. You'll get more used to it as you do it more and your baby might like it even more when she can hold her head up and look around at the world.
I also just started wearing my baby and I have found if she is sleeping, leave her where she is. She isn't missing anything by being in the car seat asleep. Then when she wakes up put her in the sling. I sometimes will lug around the stroller while wearing her so if she gets sleepy or uncomfortable I can put her in it and keep her happy. As far as how long to wear them, I get worried I'm keeping her in it too long but I have heard of people wearing their baby 12 hours a day! They just have to get used to it first.
My DS1(3yrs) did not like being worn - I did it only when I had to get stuff done. (I got me first carrier when he was like 3 mo - maybe he would have been different if he was worn from the get-go) He's cuddly, but an on the go kind of guy and wanted down more than up early on. DS2 (5wks) would be in heaven to be worn 24/7 (so far). Follow your LO's cues, she'll let you know what she wants!


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Bottega Veneta Leather Riding Boot
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Item # 261610
Bottega Veneta is luxury at its best. Bringing us beautiful footwear done in the richest materials and with close attention to detail, this iconic brand will never go out of style. This timeless riding boot is the perfect addition to your fall look.
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By GARY ARRINGTONSports writer
The 2010 3-A softball season came to a close with the same conclusion as the last two years and that was with the Bear River High School Bears being crowned state champion behind the pitching of Josie Summers.
Bear River won the title game over region 12 champion North Sanpete 8-1. The Bears were dominant throughout the tournament and throughout the season. In the championship game, North Sanpete only managed to get two base hits as they were kept off balance by Summers, a signee at Utah Valley University to play softball next season.
After splitting games in the opening weekend, the Emery High Lady Spartans went to Taylorsville and split games the next week. Emery defeated the south region champion, Canyon View, on Thursday 5-3 and then lost to Manti 5-0 on Friday.
This was only the second time in the last few years that Emery has actually made it to the site of the state tournament as the Spartans finished the season 14-11. Many of the games Emery lost this season were either close games that could have gone either way or games that were lost in the last inning.
Emery, this season, actually defeated two region champions in games and came close against a third. This season's squad consisted of five seniors, five juniors, four sophomores and 10 freshmen. Emery's pitchers this season were all either sophomores or freshmen. It promises to be an exciting season next year for the Emery softball program.
In the game against Canyon View, Emery fell behind in the first inning 1-0 but the Spartans scored four runs in the top of the second inning to grab the lead, which then turned out to be for good. In that inning, Michelle Oliver led off with a single to centerfield followed by a sacrifice bunt by Shelby Mason. Danavin Reed walked, Whitney Roper singled, Abbie Kay singled and then all four of these girls would score. Markette Tanner and Gabby Guymon also would single in the inning to pick up RBIs. Emery had nine base hits in the game with five of them coming in this inning.
Canyon View scored twice more in the bottom of the second inning but never had another serious opportunity to score. Roper pitched the complete game for Emery to get the win. Roper gave up six hits in the game. Guymon finished off the Emery scoring with a home run in the top of the seventh inning.
Roper also pitched the Friday game but four errors by Emery won the game for the Templars. Roper gave up five hits against Manti, the fewest that Manti had got in three games. Manti had no earned runs in the game.
Emery never played a single game this season that weather wasn't a factor. Even on Friday, thunderstorms and wind and cold kept the players, the fans and the coaches in many layers of clothing. Playing in mid-May or playing in St. George didn't matter, as cold and wind were always present.
Gabby Guymon, Abbie Kay, Danavin Reed, Mackenzie Grange and Michelle Oliver have all played their last games for the Spartans but will be remembered both for their abilities and their antics. While each was very solid on the field, each was also not afraid to have a good time in the dugout and at practice. They will be missed.


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Moda Spana Hide Wedge Sandal
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Item # 245736
Reach new heights in the Moda Spana Hide! This slingback wedge sandal is the essence of feminine and flirty summer fun.
- Canvas fabric upper
- Rosette accent over round peep toe
- Slingback strap with elastic insert for secure fit
- 1" platform, 4¼" braided rope wedge heel
- Synthetic sole
- Imported
- Online Exclusive!
By: dmterry123
Location: Texas
February 23, 2013
So cute!
"Adore these cute things! Comfort is okay for wedges. Great for spring and Easter. Size seems to fit as expected."
By: AquaDeMimi
Location: JC NJ
September 26, 2012
cute in pink!
"so cute and simple!"
By: Munchkins709
Location: Florida
August 06, 2012
"this is such a pretty wedge!! I loved it soo much but had to return because when I tried it one the one toe part kept bothering my toes so I knew this is not comfy at all! other than that it is pretty and would be loved by those who maybe are used to open toe wedges =)"
By: HMMMShoes
Location: Cincinnati
June 20, 2012
Very cute, good quality
"These so adorable! I love them so much, that I bought one in pink and one in green, both look good! According to reviews, I got 8.5 and 9 (my normal size). Even though I kept both of them, 9 fits better, as with 8.5 and wide foot, there is not much space. The brade looks very neat, overally - Definetely recommend!"
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The resistance tube is one of the most convenient portable fitness aids for a full body workout.
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Jenesis Holdings - geanee-brand inexpensive Windows 8.1 tablets
Jenesis Holdings is going to release 3 new reasonably-priced Windows tablet models after mid-December.
All 3 models are equipped with Windows 8.1 with Bing, an Intel Atom processor, 4-point multi-touch IPS panel (1280x800), 2MP in-camera and out-camera, Wi-Fi (IEEE 802.11 b/g/n) and Bluetooth 4.0.
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Beaver Creek Wild and Scenic River has its headwaters in the White Mountains, approximately 50 miles north of Fairbanks, Alaska. The river flows west past the jagged limestone ridges of the White Mountains before flowing to the north and east, where it enters the Yukon Flats and joins the Yukon River. The first 127 miles of Beaver Creek, most of it within the White Mountains National Recreation Area, were designated a national wild river by the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act in 1980. The last 16 miles of designated wild river lie within the Yukon Flats National Wildlife Refuge.
Beaver Creek has long been a popular destination for river adventurers. The river's clear water, modest Class I rapids, and unparalleled scenery make for a relaxing trip. Floating Beaver Creek can take from seven days to three weeks to complete. For shorter trips, arrangements can be made with an air taxi for a gravel bar pick-up near Victoria Creek. Others continue for several more weeks onto the Yukon River and take out at the bridge on the Dalton Highway. This 360-mile trip has been called the longest road-to-road float in North America.
Bureau of Land ManagementEastern Interior Field Office222 University AvenueFairbanks, Alaska 99709
907-474-2200 or1-800-437-7021
Learn more about BLMNational Conservation Lands


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The Sak Classic Crocheted Marlboro Solid Hobo
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Item # dsw12prod4460309
The perfect bag for the season, The Sak Classic Crocheted Marlboro Solid Hobo is light in weight but heavy in style with room for carrying everything you need day or night!
- Crocheted shoulder bag
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- Nylon lining with zip pocket and two slip pockets
- Dimensions 12" x 5½" x 10"
- Imported
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