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102 Comments
have you ever heard of GWEN towers ground wave emergency network and their use as mind control. Do you ever wonder why these "lone" gunmen end up either shot dead by authorities or commit suicide
Hey Jason,
No, I haven't heard of that, but it sounds like something right out of MK-Ultra. I know it sounds VERY conspiratorial, but I do believe that these types of "lone" gunmen end up killing themselves because they were programmed to do that; maybe not in all cases, but in too many to count.
Project Paperclip explains how the U.S. "imported" lead Nazis to this country and they joined forces with the CIA to continue work they had been involved in under Hitler. The work included mind control techniques.
Many have written books about this including Russ Dizdar who often speaks of the coming "Black Awakening" where mind control slaves will be "triggered" to do what they have been programmed to do. Yes, it sounds extremely far-feteched to the average person, but there is so much out there, it is difficult to deny it anymore.
Frankly, I don't put anything like this past Satan.
I saw a commercial for the program Dragon on t.v. I fould it strange that the pragram is called dragon and that the number to call to order it was 1 888 666 2738. I am not reading anything into this just thought it strange
Wow, that is interesting, Jason. Had not noticed that before at all. It DOES make you wonder, doesn't it? 🙂
I don't know much about SDA, JW, or Judaism. But I thought Christianity was about loving your neighbor? Some of the comments here are shocking. SDA women wear makeup like whores? Last time I checked, Jesus loved us all. Even the whores.
What is your definition of love, Larissa? Too many secularists believe love is an emotion. The comment regarding women with too much make-up is not an indictment against prostitutes. It's against women in church who have chosen to emulate the look of a prostitute, which should not be the case for people who say they are Christian.
You may wish to take the time to read the gospels to learn that while Jesus loved everyone, He had little patience with legalists and hypocrites.
Sadly, probably the most important truth that we can know in this life is that though God absolutely loves everyone, too many – through their own choice – will find themselves in an eternity completely apart from God. God's love can only do so much. He can provide the way TO salvation, but even His love cannot force anyone to enter into that way.
The church of Christ believes that they are the "one and only true church", and all others are lost and sinners just like non church goers. I quit attending any church as I got tired of the way all of them try to put you in their box of what Christianity is.
A true Christian is one who "declare(s) with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved," (Romans 10:9-10).
I'm sorry for your frustration, but I would encourage you to keep looking for a church where you can fellowship with other authentic believers. I'll be praying for you, Treva.
I would like to ask you, Modres, if that's okay.
Many people or Christians have an issue with the fact that Seventh Day Adventists, other Seventh Day Sabbath keeping denominations, LDS, and some others, feel that keeping the Sabbath is important because it's in the 10 Commandments. (That's actually the reason I keep Sabbath. Not because I have to, but because God included it in the Commandments.) Some say that we don't have to keep that law anymore, but many Christians believe that the key to following Jesus is keeping the 10 Commandments. So what do I do with that one?
The Bible doesn't necessarily say anything about keeping it on Saturday. Some churches keep it on Sunday. After what I have learned about time and the Bible I recognize that some are going to ask, how do we know that Saturday is Sabbath if time has changed over the time that the Earth was created? Well I think that since Saturday is what the 7th day is for our life today, it's the best that we can do in the request that God asks us to rest on the Seventh Day.
I think what Sabbath was created for is actually a good thing if you look at it. The reason He created Sabbath was so that we could have a day to rest and worship him without the hustle and bustle of our everyday lives. I don't think that Sabbath was meant to be so controversial. But I am curious about what you stance is on the subject of Sabbath.
Because how do you feel about the 9 other Commandments?
There are 613 laws in the OT given to Moses. Of those, many were to be obeyed by the Levites. The rest were for the average Israelite.
Of those, the ten main commandments essentially encompass all of God's Law and represent His moral code. Unlike many of the laws that were given to the nation of Israel, the moral code are those laws that are to be obeyed by Christians.
I believe that the Sabbath does not have to be the last day of the week. There is evidence from Acts that the disciples met on the first day of the week – Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day. I realize that many take issue with this sentiment and that's okay. Each person needs to do what they believe they are responsible for doing. You indicated that you do what you do, not out of a sense of duty or as a work for salvation, but simply because you want to obey Him. Amen to that. I'm right with you there.
I also believe – taking it a step further – that every day should be a day when my life is set aside to worship the Lord. My life – actions, words, and deeds – should be such that He is glorified and I find rest and renewal serving Him each day.
Regarding the other nine commandments of His moral code, I believe not only Christians, but all people should keep them. It shouldn't be done as a means to earn salvation, because we cannot earn salvation. It is something we either receive or reject. It should be done as the normal outflow of a life that is redeemed by God. Unfortunately, while in this world, we continue to have the sin nature which, as Paul says, wars against us, prompting us to do things we do not want to do. Our job is to rely on Him for His strength to resist it and at best, it will not be done perfectly here in this life.
I think it is possible to obey the law, outwardly, with our actions. I think that without Christ, it is impossible to obey the law from our heart consistently. Jesus said that if a man lusts after a woman, that man has already committed adultery with that woman in his heart. As far as God is concerned, that many has literally committed adultery, but if he has not done the physical act of sleeping with that woman, as far as the world is concerned, he has not committed adultery and appears to be a moral person. We have no idea what goes on in a man's heart and what he presents to the world that we see as his "character."
King David first lusted in his heart after Bathsheba. He should have turned away and confessed at that point, but he didn't. He allowed the lust of his heart to cause him to commit adultery physically. The consequences were greater than had he stopped things with the lust in his heart. They were both sins and as far as God is concerned, the same sin. However, the latter, physical sin caused far greater consequences in David's life. I'm sure you get the picture. Obeying God's law should come from a right heart and should be seen in our actions. However, we can show the world one thing while God sees the truth of our heart.
It does no good if I donate money to the poor if I really do not want to do that in my heart. If I help someone, or do something for them and outwardly, I look as though I want to, but inwardly, I really hate the idea, I've done nothing good at all.
When we get to heaven of course, we will do everything perfectly from within and that is hard for me to imagine because of the difficulties that are often involved in this life on a daily basis.
I do not believe in murder and this extends to abortion. It is not right. I do not believe that capital punishment is murder and if we go back to Genesis 9, we see that God told Noah to put to death someone who deliberately put to death someone else. This is not referring to a death caused by self-defense. It is referring to premeditated murder.
I do not believe in stealing or in lying on my taxes (same thing). I don't believe in coveting anything my neighbor has. I believe that we should follow God's moral code, period.
Love is really at the heart of all the commandments and the lawyer in the NT received Jesus' accolades when he correctly summed up all the law like this: love God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
The problem is that I think all of us human beings (and I am absolutely including myself here) have a really difficult time loving people by nature. It really is not within the capacity of our fallen nature to automatically love people. We tend to be selfish and ignore the needs of others. We have to be trained by God Himself to live out a life of love. That frustrates me at times because I can see how far I have to go. At times, it seems like a very steep road.
Love is not based on feelings or emotions, yet it can be expressed in those areas, can't it?
I sometimes find myself dutifully going about my life trying my best to love others, while forgetting myself, only to realize that I'm just not good at it.
Not sure if I answered your question or not, Emily. I appreciate your asking it. In fact, it would probably be a good subject for an upcoming blog in the near future.
In short, I believe we have an obligation to obey the moral code of God, as expressed in His Ten Commandments. At the same time, they should not be obeyed because I might be thinking that through those laws, I will gain eternal life. Essentially, the Law was given – as I'm sure you know – to point out the fact that we are all lawbreakers. We are in need of something outside of ourselves. Of course, that is salvation, which comes only from Jesus, God the Son. Without that, we can try to perfectly uphold every law from now until the day we die and still find that our efforts amounted to nothing as far as God is concerned.
When we die and have our sin nature "surgically" removed from us by Christ Himself, we will then automatically be able to do without thinking what is often so difficult for us to do now. We will perfectly live a life of love and because of that, we will also automatically uphold every law of God naturally.
In the meantime, we strive and struggle to do what God wants us to do. I believe we do this best by submitting our will (which is almost always at odds with His) to Him in order that He might live His life of love in and through us.
I have been associating with JW for 8 yrs now. They have been loving and kind. No pressure not one little bit. Sure there are zealous ones that wanr everyone to embrace it all now, but their zeal is not an attack on me and my patience with baptism (finally this year).
Here's the thing. I was raised Baptist as a kid (3 visits per week) and some random church visitation to your list of "safe places" of worship.
When I started to study with JW I was blown away. Using my own KJames bible I learned many things. For real Gods name removed Thousands times over?!?, Hell is Sheol? What is Hades and Gehenna?? Satan is real and is demonic influence.
Prophecy makes more sense now to me and so do many of Gods messages because it is his word.
Here is the other thing. My family hates JW because they are continually lied to over and over. The amount of internet lies and half truths is confounding. Yes I know fully about disfellowship'ing. Did you know it takes a long time to be disfellowshipped? Did you know a person can keep their heavy opinion to themselves and not cause havoc within the congregation by drawing attention to themselves and not be disfellowshipped? Its called inactive. People can leave when they want. Again – it is called inactive.
So please stop pandering to the many who never set foot in a Kingdom Hall, got to know the loving families that are not passing judgement on others because that is not in their place. They just try to lovingly teach others bible truths. If other don't wish to associate there is no grief, only open loving arms because that is what Jehovah gives us daily. Undeserved Kindness, the Free Gift of Life, salvation cannot be earned because the Christ shed blood is our salvation and his right to present us to his Father.
Go to a Kingdom Hall and tell me all the lies money making religions spread is true.
It is no more true than pointed exaggerations of the world defining police officers, doctors, etc as bad because a few have fallen short.
Go to a Kingdom Hall. No band, no spiritually starved crying hordes (some crying sometimes), just love for God (Jehovah), his word and the proper food being given at the proper time. It is total nonsense that you state I cannot have salvation as a JW if I chose to leave. Only Jesus and Jehovah can read hearts so if anyone abused a member and temporarliy got away with it they will have to answer for abusing his flock and no one can ever say that abused flock won't have a chance at salvation.
The bible teaches of a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Perhaps you need to study with a Jehovahs Witness to get an accurate description before writing anymore heartfelt blogs of untruth and unjust judgement of a people you do not know.
Google and ear tickling company are never the real world.
Hi Jonathan,
Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions and beliefs.
I don't recall publicizing some list of "safe" churches, Jonathan. People who attend Baptist churches are not automatically saved, nor are those who attend Presbyterian, or Methodist, or any other allegedly "safe" church. Salvation comes from SEEING the truth, then EMBRACING that truth. The thief on the cross did both and gained salvation that very day. He wasn't in a church. He was dying on a cross next to Jesus.
There are many people who attend churches, read the Bible, pray, witness, preach and teach who are not saved. Certainly, God knows who they are and He also knows they have deceived themselves into thinking that they have salvation simply because they attend some protestant, mainline church. That's not how it works.
The problems with Jehovah's Witnesses are multitude and most of it has to do with their doctrine.
One of my aunts was a Jehovah's Witness for most of her adult life and died one. We discussed things over the years. I also went to a Kingdom Hall with her one day. What I found absolutely amazing is that even though I was there as her guest, I was COMPLETELY shunned. Not ONE person, including the pastor said "boo" to me. Why? Because I was not one of them – a Jehovah's Witness. They shunned me because of it. My aunt did nothing to let them know their actions were offensive.
I'm sure they are very loving to their own, Jonathan. Most groups are that way.
The idea that in order for me to truly understand what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, I have to spend time in their Hall listening to their lectures, or talking with JW's in-depth is ridiculous, in my opinion. Many groups use that argument, but it simply doesn't hold water. There have been MANY books written BY JW's as well as many written by FORMER JW's. While you might argue that the former JW's might have an axe to grind, the truth of the matter is that their doctrine is evident for all to know.
The New World Translation is very inaccurate. In fact, the individuals who claimed to produce that translation – under oath – stated in a court of law that they knew neither Hebrew or Greek, yet they somehow managed to create the New World Translation. Interesting.
Moreover, as noted, there are many problem with JW doctrine. For instance, John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Yet, the NWT says "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was A god." I took Greek when I attended seminary years ago. There is NO indefinite article in the text at all. I'm aware of how JW's argue their point, but they are, unfortunately, incorrect. You have chosen to believe them because of how they treat you and how they appear to have opened your eyes.
The nonsense of JW doctrine is seen when they deny a Trinity. They say there is only ONE God. So do I. There IS only one God. Of course, as you know, I believe that the Godhead is made up of three distinct Persons, who share the attributes of deity and there appears to be ample evidence of this in Scripture. Because we cannot wrap our brains around that concept does not mean it is untrue, as a husband and wife JW pair tried to tell me. It doesn't make sense therefore it cannot be true. We are HUMAN with very limited understanding. The belief that we should be able to understand the Trinity in its fullness is also ridiculous. I also do not understand how God can always be in the eternal present, where the past, the present, and the future are ONE. I don't understand that, yet that is what it is when we talk about our eternal God.
The JW says no, my understanding of God is not correct. They keep repeating that if there are three members of the Godhead, then I believe there are three individual Gods. No, not at all. Nothing of the kind. Just as every human being has three parts – body, soul, and spirit, yet it is ONE human being, so too does God have three distinct personalities, yet they all SHARE the same attributes of deity.
Yet, JW's, by their own admission, confuse the issue of the Trinity and contradict themselves when they then are forced to admit that Jesus was "a" god. How could Jesus be ANY type of God if there is only ONE God? Doesn't Isaiah tell us that God shares His glory with NO ONE (cf. Isaiah 49:1)? Why then would He do something that contradicts that by sharing His glory with Jesus, if Jesus was not God Himself?
The entire first chapter of Colossians asserts that Jesus created EVERYTHING and before Him, there was NOTHING. Yet, JW's believe that Jesus was a created being because He is called "the first born" or "first begotten," or because God the Father says, "You are my Son, this day have I begotten you." The word "begotten" here means "appointed." It has nothing to do with the act of creating or of being created.
Look, Jonathan, I truly appreciate where you are coming from and I hope and pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the truth. I know that you believe you HAVE the truth, but the plain fact of the matter is that you have not accepted Jesus for who He is, but for what you BELIEVE Him to be.
We could go back and forth over every aspect of JW doctrine and get nowhere; you being sure of your position and me being sure of mine. I would simply ask that you prayerfully do your own study. Get some books by people who USED to be JW's and see what they have to say? Are they believable? Do they make sense? Do they seem to understand Scripture?
I guarantee you that within the JW system, prophecy makes NO sense at all, I'm sorry to say. It's tragic. They believe the 144,000 represent people within the JW system who were "saved" long ago and every one else who is "saved" remains on the earth, not in heaven. There is absolutely no eternal security within the JW system.
I've had many JW's (and Mormons and others) at my door trying to explain the Bible to me. The tragedy is that they know their script, but when you take them off script to help them try to see what the Bible actually says, they panic. They don't like it when you offer to pray for them because they believe that demons would answer that prayer. It is very sad to me.
You also ought to do some research into Charles Taze Russell. He was fully involved with the occult and when he died, he was found with a pentagram necklace on and other occultic accoutrements in his room. He was also very anti-Semitic as most cults tend to be.
I will pray for you Jonathan. I have spent years studying numerous cults. I have a Bachelors degree in Bible, a Masters degree in Biblical Studies, and a doctorate in theology. I've studied quite a bit. I don't need "google" to tell me what the Bible says.
By the way, I'm not done studying either. It's a life long process. I hope that one day, the Lord will open your eyes so that you can see the actual error that you have ingested into your soul. The truth will set you free, Jonathan. Error on the other enslaves.
Lord bless,
Fred DeRuvo
how can one claim to have the love of god in their heart while becoming angry at people like myself concerning situations I have no ownership of?
regarding your one uncomfortable encounter with that kingdom hall I must say I cannot explain why you were not spoken to…there are many things going on and one of a million could have been that particular day
when we see new visitors we are so happy and very encouraged if they are a new study or out of town visitorregarding reading opposing views I have read many
all of them were either:
angry angry angry and left me feeling empty with no positive alternative other than I am a fool and JW are evil or
they covered specific bad situations that were not handled appropriately by whomever was in the lead at the time
for me to state every hall is run perfectly and every decision is handled perfectly is insanity
you are talking about imperfect people and yes in this world every organization deals with corruption and lies
the real answer is how are things handled afterward?from what I ahve seen very very well indeed
but that is not published is itso if I slam joe blow and tell you he is a jerk
then joe and myself make good you still hate joe cause he was a jerk (or so I said he was)slanderous talk if like a wildfire
in the end I have seen the valuable information against the society as wildfire for those opposers to consume and spread with their supportthe only thing that made that happen was attending the meetings, taking in the meat of their publications, reading the bible daily, and getting to know the congregation out in field service
nothing but love
a feast of love
you have no idea how amazing it is to go out in service and preach the good news of gods kingdom
opposition is expected but for the most part opposing neighbors are very respectful and kind
ones that are spiritually starving are such an encouragement when they learn basic bible truths of which the most important is god loves them and has good food for them to feed on dailyif they dont want to learn more or get baptized they are still better off most times understanding their bibles that they can use in a study
I learned with my king james and used it for a year with no problems
So –
I respectfully disagree with your measurement towards a community of 7 million peopleto make one visit to the hall, slam the organization publicly on the web, and continue persecuting christians for trying their best to follow gods law is upsetting – but isnt that the point of persecution? the best strategy satan teaches us is to frustrate ones opponent so they lose focus
but you are not my opponent if you love godout of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks
I will not encourage you to carry on in this manner
matter of fact this exchange is precisely why the society encourages us not to contend with angry persecutors of our faiththe scriptures call it being unevenly yoked
I have nothing but love for you and my neighbors
the greatest teacher Jesus showed us that we are all children under the power of undeserved kindness
we cannot own frustration with one another – periodso I kindly request that people please stop slamming 7 million law abiding god fearing individuals who are earnestly trying to adhere to a level of spiritual integrity that most in these times find uncomfortable
it is not a judgement – it is an effort to please the almighty
you are not a target of judgement by any JW
if we truly love god Satan wants us to hate Jehovah's Witnesses
because we truly love Jehovah with our whole being and never want to be known as judgemental, overbearing, or contentiousif someone does not wish to continue studying the NWT there is no pressure
if a member becomes spiritually tired they are greased over with the oil of gods word and given whatever time they need to re-energize
i see people deal wiht life all the time and step away from pioneering or being an elder
there is no pressure
this is a volunteer organizationif/when anyone did deal with pressure then they were/are under improper influence and need to change halls immediately
all of these lies about how the organization operates today is flat out unreasonableness powered by anger and we know where that stems from
please be well my neighbor and may Jehovah bless your days with peace as he does me and my family
Hi Jonathan,
I do not understand how you can accuse me of being angry. Were you at my computer when I wrote what I wrote? Did you see my facial expression? Was I foaming at the mouth?
Jonathan, there are HUGE theological and doctrinal problems with Jehovah's Witnesses. It was not my intent to slam them, you, or anyone else associated with the Watchtower Society. It was simply my intent to point out what I believe to be the truth. I'm sorry you feel I'm being inaccurate and judgmental.
I never indicated or attempted to imply that you are a fool, Jonathan and I'm sorry you understood that from my initial response to you. I simply responded to your comments as best I could and as often happens on the Internet, things get lost in translation because of the ABSENCE of a face-to-face discussion.
I can assure you there is absolutely NO anger here at all toward you or the Watchtower society. None. However, it saddens me greatly that people like yourself are caught up in a cult that denies the deity of Christ and changes the rules for salvation. It is very sad. I pray for my cousin (of my aunt) as often as possible, that the Lord will open her eyes to the truth.
That is not an attack. It is simply referencing what Jehovah's Witnesses teach against the truth of Scripture.
I truly wish you would do some independent research about the Watchtower, Jonathan. I say that because I am concerned for your soul, not because I'm angry, as you accuse.
I do not understand this comment from you:
"you have no idea how amazing it is to go out in service and preach the good news of gods kingdom"
How do you know? Isn't that a bit judgmental on your part? Again, you are judging me based on what, this blog? Since you know nothing of my life outside of this blog, how could possibly be so arrogant as to make a statement like that? I mean, seriously, I'm not angry at all in my response to your comment, but I'm just wondering how you allow yourself to judge me like that when you have no idea of the truth of your statement.
I do not believe for a moment that I am "slamming" anyone. I am presenting what I understand to be facts of the situation. I am concerned – DEEPLY concerned – for people who may not be biblically saved. I had enough conversations with my aunt who was extremely active in the Jehovah's Witnesses community to know what was taught and believed. I also read a number of the books she loaned me written by those within the Watchtower organization.
I'm truly sorry you have taken umbrage at what I have written, Jonathan. My intent is not to anger people or make them feel judged, which is why I have done my best to not single individuals out but to simply comment on what an organization teaches.
If you are fully comfortable in your beliefs, shouldn't your attitude toward me be one of sadness and sorrow? After all, you believe I am wrong. Instead, you are doing your best to adjudicate yourself before me, while criticizing and judging me for the things I have said and for how you believe I live my life.
I also agree with you that debating rarely solves anything or convinces anyone. Jesus never debated. He simply stated. That's what I'm trying to do.
You said you have read many books about Jehovah's Witnesses and all you see is anger. May I suggest that either you are imagining it OR their anger at least in some cases is justified. After all, for those who saw the truth and came out of the Watchtower Society, often the initial reaction is to be angry for having been lied to by so many for so many years (as they contend). Anger is part of the healing process. But based on your reaction to my post – accusing me of being angry when I'm not at all angry – makes me think that you might be possibly seeing anger every time someone says what you consider to be a negative word about Jehovah's Witnesses.
Sometimes, anger is a good thing. Jesus was very angry at the religious leaders. He was also very angry at the money changers. Paul was angry at the Judaizers. We can become righteously angry at those who are keeping others from seeing the truth.
If you can walk away from someone's home after listening to their refusal to hear what you believe is truth, and do so without concern, then there is something wrong. At the same time, if you see ALL opposition to your message as persecution, there is also some thing wrong.
Keep searching, Jonathan. Don't settle for what you believe you have now. We won't ever be done in this life.
Thanks for writing and take are.
Lord bless,
I have to say this.
If you really are an organization that loves Jesus then why do you cut all form of communication from your family or be asked that you do if they are not JW? I have known one JW and I didn't know he was but he was one of the nicest guys. Then I have a friend who's brother and sister are JW and for awhile he wasn't allowed to talk to them because he didn't stay JW but became a Christian. So why do you do that?
And you should do the research on your history. Do you know that the guy that founded JW kept having prophecy's that never came true so they kept making up all this other truth to try and make his prophecy's seem legit? And did you know that this same guy hung out with the SDAs? Do you realize that we teach none of what you believe in the JW? That we teach entirely Christian? I don't even know how that man got what he got because I can promise you that it wasn't from us. And anyone who rewrites the Bible is not a good idea. It presents a new gospel that as a Christian, I'm not even supposed to have anything to do with. I won't even read the Clear Word Bible which is apparently our Bible. I never heard of it until this year. But I read the actual Bible. I read the NLT, NASB, and the KJV.
this is all in Revelation 17
the harlot and the scarlet beast the beast destroys the harlot islam is the harlot the PE is the beast and then the beast will burn the harlot with fire
That's one interpretation, Jason.
I see the Beast as referring to the Antichrist and the SYSTEM (both the religious AND the commercial) of Babylon that Satan created to push through his goals and objectives. Many believe the harlot is actually the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know. I'm not sure I agree that Islam is the harlot and the global elite is the beast. I think the global elite USES both the Babylon religious system and the Babylon commercial system for their own personal gain. Once the Babylon religious system (Revelation 17) is no longer needed, it will be destroyed. The Antichrist will BE the object of worship, no longer requiring another false system. Then, in Revelation 18, we see the commercial system of Babylon destroyed, leaving Antichrist in full control of the religious AND commercial enterprises. Both culminate in him.
Hello there brother Modres. I'm sorry if this is not your real name, but I'm using this it as a result of this name being the title on all your comments below. I am an SDA young person, specifically of 19 years of age who is very privileged to be part of what I believe to be God's final movement here on Earth. I will not get into specifics as to why I espouse to this belief, but what I want to do is to comment on the subjects that have arisen below.
Title of the article asks, "what do Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists have in common?" and I believe this to be a plausible question, especially considering that most evangelical Christians believe that all three of these meet the definition of what they would consider a "cult" to be. On this I would say, conclusions are always made based on the assumptions(definitions) of the hypothesis. I hope the criteria we use to judge if whether a proposed Christian denomination is cultic or Christian is based on the bible and not on the assumptions of preconception or misconception.
I have made an observation that you are somewhat aligned to what most evangelical christians would consider to be the reformers' view of the gospel. From what I have read in your comments, I have no reason to doubt the legitimacy of your honesty in seeking to get from an adventist's point of view their understanding of the gospel. I do not perceive you to be looking for an arguement, or to be looking to shove it down SDAs' throats that they may believe a "false gospel" or anything of that sort. Not at all. What I believe you to be is an honest truth seeker who wants no one to be in error in subjects of such colossal importance.
That being said, let's consider a few things.
An axiom is a premise so evident so as to be true without controversy and for most of us, we consider the undeniable fact that we are saved by all that Christ has done and nothing that we have done or can do, to be axiomatic. Believe it or not, SDAsm is a proponent of the authentic biblical teaching that Salvation is all about Christ and nothing about me. Phil3:9 and gal2:16 is unequivocal on this point, literally dozens of other verses could be sighted and I have never met an SDA who's denies this.These clearly point out that the works or deeds of the law cannot justify any man. Christ is my Lord and savior and there is no salvation in any other but him, Acts2 tells us this. The problem comes up when we start to define terms like justification and sanctification and which one is a requirement for salvation and which one is not. The issue really is not about the sabbath or a bout the law, but the crux of this matter is about these two subjects of justification and sanctification. So then, what needs to be done is to found out from the bible, the true view of salvation as it relates to justification and sanctification. Questions like what is the new birth and who's work is the work of sanctification need be answered. Without a thorough biblical understanding of these crucial subjects, we will forever be pointing fingers at each other and ignoring Him that is the truth. The one whom in his very life was the gospel, Jesus Christ our Lord. I will leave you with a quotation from mrs EGW , she says "Hanging upon the cross, Christ was the gospel" (6BC 111). There is massive profundity in that quotation. The gospel is not merely a theology, or and ideology. I is not a concept, but it is about a person. It is about His love for humanity, what He has done and what He continues to do. And there are many great a thing that He has done and is doing…………
My question to you is what is your understanding of justification and sanctification as it relates to Salvation?
I would agree with you, Njabulo.
The problem of course – and the reason I wrote the article in the first place – is due to the extended controversy around Seventh-day Adventism. I think it is probably incorrect of you to assume there is no controversy at all – because obviously, there exists within it people who seem to be thoroughly unclear about what constitutes salvation. As I have repeatedly stated, some within SDA have told me to my face that I am going to hell because I do not worship on Sunday. This belief exists within segments of the SDA movement; of that, there can be no doubt and it really needs to be addressed.
The goal I have always had in writing about SDA (or Mormonism, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or Catholicism, etc.) is not to become embroiled in argument, but to seek out those within those particular systems and evangelize THEM.
I have had any numbers of SDA people come to this blog to either shout me down or attempt to disprove my points, as if all SDAs believe as you do. My main concern is not that I "win" an argument or not. My main concern is that for all the people who ARE SDAs, that they come to the same understanding about salvation that you and others have.
In far too many examples, too many within SDA simply want to argue as if there is no possibility that anyone within SDA could make the mistake of thinking that salvation is by faith PLUS works. Unfortunately, I believe it to be far-reaching and in my opinion, the best people to help others within SDA are those who are (or were) also part of that system.
I seriously hope you will take the time to consider what I'm saying. Thank you and may God bless you.
Your premise is false, you say "I mean that they cannot LEAVE their group to become PART of a mainline, orthodox denomination. It is that simple". when one leaves a group they leave because they "Don't believe in it's tenets any longer. You try to imply as if they leave the Church then somehow carry the same beliefs with them, if so why leave? Your comparison should have stayed with the first two as they have Cultic beliefs that are unbiblical.
Where as the SDA church in which I was brought up in before I left it after 27 years has many if not half that don't follow EGW, and eat meat as well, So before you break out your "you terrible SDA line" stick to what you know.. Mormons.
PS There are over 300 Sabbath keeping Churches and the Seventh Day Baptist are one of them ironically the founder of the Adventist movement was a former Baptist .
I wish I could follow your reasoning, but you use quotation marks here and there covering part of what I said and then you have an open-ended quotation mark that appears to include what you say…
My point is that I have been told by SDAs that they can worship wherever they want to worship – within SDA or another "denomination." Yet, I've heard from other SDAs that if they leave the SDA to worship with another "denomination," that would essentially mean they would possibly wind up worshiping with a group that does NOT worship on Saturday. Many within SDA (who have actually told me this) believe they would LOSE their salvation because these same people believe that worship was changed FROM Saturday TO Sunday by one of the early popes. They also believe that this pope was the antichrist (who changes the times and seasons).
So my point was that even though some SDA members tell me they are free to worship on Sunday or Saturday depending upon who they worship with, it seems disingenuous simply because of their belief that they are doing the right thing by worshiping on Saturday. If they are doing the right thing by worshiping on Saturday, then to stop worshiping on that day for Sunday would put their entire salvation in jeopardy.
I am aware that SOME SDAs do not follow White. I am also aware that SOME SDAs do not worry about which day to worship on as a matter of legality. However, there ARE plenty of people involved in SDA who believe that they CANNOT worship on a day other than Saturday. They also believe that they CANNOT eat meat. These positions are tied into their own view of salvation. These are the people that I am reaching out to.
There is plenty wrong with Seventh-day Adventism as taught by Ellen G. White. I find it amusing (and just wrote a blog on this) that there are Seventh-day Adventists who "don't follow EGW, and eat meat as well." What's the point of being a Seventh-day Adventist? As my most recent blog notes, Ellen G. White IS Seventh-day Adventism. It's like a Mormon remaining a Mormon but not following Joseph Smith's teachings. How does that happen?
Frankly, if I were part of a group like Seventh-day Adventism, I would simply learn to ignore what people say about it or move to something else. The reason is that when the average person thinks of Seventh-day Adventism, they think of Ellen G. White and her failures theologically.
As I have said repeatedly, if a Christian wants to worship on Saturday, that's up to them. If they are doing it because they believe that failure to do so might result in a loss of salvation, there is a problem. If a Christian does not want to eat meat, they have that right. If they don't want to eat meat because they think it somehow ties into their salvation or potential loss of it, they are not eating meat for the wrong reasons.
I have never stated or implied that Seventh-day Adventism is "terrible" or that the people who are involved in it are either. The reality is that THE reason I discuss it here and present my findings has everything to do with the fact that I want people to be free of all cultic manipulations and that includes those found within SDA. You see my words as an attack on SDA. That's not the case.
It doesn't matter if there are 3, 300, or 3,000 "Sabbath keeping Churches." The question is WHY do they worship on Saturday – because they WANT to do so or because they believe they HAVE to do so? If the former, there is nothing wrong with that. If the latter, they are ADDING to salvation.
You left the SDA church after 27 years. What do you consider yourself to be now? Just curious and by the way, since you are no longer a SDA, then can I assume you have left because you either found problems with it, or question the entirety of the issue of salvation in general? If the former, then can I assume you have relocated yourself to another sect or denomination? If the latter, then I will assume you presently participate in no religious observance of any kind? Hopefully, that is not the case, but if you left SDA for something else, then what about all those people who remain with SDA who honestly believe that their salvation hinges upon whether or not their particular day of worship?
My dad told me recently that SDA's are Jews, the remnant church that keep the commandments of God.
Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 both say "to those who say they are Jews and are not , but are the synagogue of Satan", could this be a reference to SDA's and groups like Jehovah's witnesses that claim to be the remnant church?
That would make sense and Jehovah's Witnesses have similar beliefs.
Regarding the "synagogue of Satan," that probably specifically refers to the situation in Smyrna at the time that John wrote Revelation, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Jews in Smyrna had essentially discarded their belief in the Old Testament. They were more "cultured" than other Jews. Though they claimed to be Jews, they had given up their religion and simply went through the motions. Ultimately, because of that, they were Jews in name (through birth) only.
The same seems to be the case with Revelation 3:9 – the church at Philadelphia. All of this ties into Paul's words in Romans 9 when he speaks of what constitutes a REAL Jew. He says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel," (Romans 9:6). I think Paul is saying that just because someone is BORN a Jew, it does not mean that they are truly "of Israel." As far as Paul was concerned, a true Israelite was one who had found salvation in Jesus Christ. All the rest were not of true Israel. The thing that separates the true Jew from the false Jew (one who is Jew by birth only) is FAITH.
This exact same thing was what occurred in the Old Testament when God purged the rebels and unbelievers from the nation. He did this repeatedly with nearly each new generation because there were many in the camp of Israel who were only Jews in name only. They had no faith in God and it was constantly evidenced by their rebellious attitudes.
People (wrongly, I believe) take Paul's words in Romans "spiritually," or "allegorically" and take him to mean that the Church has somehow replaced Israel. This is not the case and I think if we take that section of Romans in its entirety (chapters 9 – 11), it becomes easy to see.
I heard my dad say the other day that "Sunday Laws" were coming. His church believes that the government is soon going to pass mandatory Suday worship laws. Another member of his church then said "I'll shoot anyone that tries to make me worship on Sunday"
He also said that "people say we are a cult, we're not a cult" trying to bait me into an argument while I was unarmed (no bible at hand) and he was in the company of other SDA'sI believe that SDA's suffer from a persecution complex. When Jesus said that "they persecute me, they will persecute you" (paraphrased)
I think that SDA's, in their conspiracy theories, use this false sense of persecution to justify the idea that they are true Christians.Any thoughts on this idea?
First off, I've not heard of any "Sunday Laws" coming and second, I cannot imagine the government trying to force people when to worship. Even the ACLU would be up in arms over that one because in that case, the government would obviously be in violation of separation of church and state.
You could be right about the persecution complex. My aunt – who was a Jehovah's Witness most of her adult life – felt that way and believed that the "persecution" she experienced because of it was due to being part of the "true" Church.
I was researching SDA and found a website that claims that Paul was a heratic in his writings, especialy the books of Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, (any book that states we are under grace not law) and that he was an agent of Satan. Do the SDA's really believe that GOD would allow anything like this to be in his book. How small the god of the SDA's must be if they think Satan wrote in GOD's bible. How could they believe, much less teach such heresy.
Have you ever heard of this?
I've run across individuals and groups who reject Paul's teachings, but those individuals/groups were not associated with SDA, at least not obviously.
I have found numerous groups/individuals who apparently believe that certain aspects of God's Word should be disallowed. They place too much emphasis on man and not enough on God's ability to create a book that accurately reflects who He is and what He wants us to know about Him and His purposes.
Taken to the extreme, there are also "Red Letter Christians," who only read the words of Christ and go from there. It's nuts, in my opinion, because it minimizes God's power and ability. Of course, they would fully disagree with that assessment.
My dads SDA church does not encourage personal bibles. They all have the same bible, by the same publisher. They are hardcover with the same cover art on them. When I asked him about it he said it was to ensure that every one was on the same page. Have you ever heard of this before?
When I gave him a list of passages by book, chapter, and verse, to show him that we are not under law but under grace, he could not find them in the bible. He then took the list to his church leaders and they told him that I was unteachable and not to waste his time trying to reach me since I was considered lost and unsaveable.Could it be that they use those bibles and not personal bibles to keep their congregation from searching scripture on their own.
It just seems weird to me that he can't find anything in the bible (other than Daniel and Revelation).-
Interesting. It would appear that various SDA churches can do what they want when it comes to which particular Bible they use. However, as Mark Martin found out, when they begin to off the SDA path related to salvation, etc., they are in danger of being ostracized and excommunicated.
It certainly sounds as if those particular SDA churches that push the Clear Word Bible do so to keep everyone "on the same page."
I have been a Seventh Day Adventist all my life and have never once had anyone in my church tell me that I would lose my salvation if I stopped attending church on Saturday. I don't believe that, and I honestly don't think that most other Adventists believe that. We choose to worship on Saturday because that's what the Bible says to do.
You have basically called us a cault for believing in Saturday worship. Our day of worship is not what we believe saves us, though. Like other Christian churches, we find our salvation in God'd forgiveness and the sacrifice of His son dying for us on the cross.
Our strong belief in Saturday Sabbath is no more strange than other churches' beliefs in Sunday worship. And, it is certainly less strange than the Catholic churches idea of having to go through confession with a priest to be fully cleansed of their sins.
If you truly believe that our belief in Sabbath and our church doctrines make us a cult, then isn't every single church out there a cult? All of the Sunday worshiping Christian churches then must also be a cult for believing that Sunday is the correct day to go to church, because they couldn't start going on Saturday… That would make them no longer a member of their denomination. The Catholics must also be a cult then, too, for their uniform beliefs on birth control and the need for confession with a priest and praying to random saints. Atheists must also be a cult because they couldn't start going to church and still call themselves an atheist.
The reasons you gave for all the churches you attacked being cults could be applied in some form to every single group out there.-
It's obvious people are not really reading my articles for meaning, nor (as in your case) are you actually reading the comments left by others and my responses to them. It's becoming redundant. Had you spent the time doing that, you would have realized (hopefully) that your post was not necessary because it's already been covered.
I get it – there are people like you who think that I'm saying one thing when I'm not and you also believe that those SDAs who DO believe that salvation can be lost if forsaking worship on the Sabbath are few and far between.
I am going to stop allowing these redundant posts from folks like yourself who do not bother to actually enter into the full conversation by taking the time to read EVERYTHING that has been posted.
I believe Seventh-day Adventism is a cult. You disagree. That's fine. I also believe – based on MY personal conversations with numerous (not a few) SDA individuals that the general belief by many within SDA is that salvation can be lost by forsaking worship on Saturday.
As I have also stated, I have been told by too many SDAs that I am already going to hell because I do not worship on Saturday like the rest of the "true" Church known as SDA.
It is NOT that you believe you must worship on Saturdays that makes you a cult (and again, I never stated that). The specific teachings of "prophet" Ellen G. White, which are in many ways, anti-biblical, makes SDA a cult.
I own books (and have read them) by KNOWN SDA people (Steve Wohlberg, Doug Batchelor, and others) who are members of SDA. They are the mouthpieces for much of SDA. While there are disagreements among leaders and authors within SDA, I have yet to read of someone who DISAGREES with either of the two individuals I've mentioned. If someone has written a critique of these gentlemen's work, then I would greatly appreciate knowing about it.
Regarding the subject of SDA, I will actually have more to write soon.
As far as this "thread" goes, any response I receive from people that is simply more of the same (that's already been stated by others), it won't be posted. Tell me something that I don't know or has not yet been posted by others.
Thank you.
If someone gave a you a gift and asked nothing in return, and you payed that person for the gift, not only do you void the gift but you insult the giver. Christ, by his blood, gave us gift of salvation, and with his resurection he also gave the gift of eternal life. To say that we must do anything to help pay the sin debt makes void these gifts.
Salvation is something that you cannot earn, buy, or lose, since we neither bought, worked for, nor deserve it. IF you cannot earn it you cannot lose it; it is truely a gift, given freely to all that believe. God chose us before the foundation of the world, ALL we must do is believe on Christ. Every person knows if they are saved or not, you cannot tell by any external means, keeping laws, holding to traditions, not eating certain foods, our search for righteousness. IF holding these things merrits anything with GOD then why did Christ need to come. In his own words "father if there be any other way then remove this cup from me".
I read an SDA book my dad gave me, the writer said in his own words that when he learned of the sabbath commandment he realized that there was ONE law that he didn't keep, (the fourth commandment). REALLY, only one? Christ said that he that saith he has no sin is a liar and his father is the devil who was a liar from the begining. By SDA's claim that they keep the law they are liars, which makes them guilty under the law. Christ said that he who believeth on me and is baptised will be saved and he who believeth not shall be condemned.
Baptism is not required for salvation, but as showing the world we believe and have faith in Christ. It is an Entole (commandment) of Christ. Jesus was accused by the pharisee's of breaking the sabbath, Paul was brought up on charges by the Jews of breaking the Laws and and teaching others to do so.Christ never taught the keeping of the law, if keeping the law was so important (especialy the sabbath law) then why did he keep quiet about it. Nowhere in the gospels does he say to do this.
Matthew 19:18 Christ told the rich young ruler to follow the commandments, (note that he did not say keep the sabbath) The rich young ruler was the SDA of that day claiming he kept all the law from his youth (he put his faith in his wealth) and went away sorrowfuly for he had great possesions. He is the exeption not the rule. Christ knows the heart. Our righteousness is but filthy rags. -
I think my biggest issue is I feel like you have decided that I don't have salvation based on the fact that I wear the title of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. You don't get to tell me whether or not I have salvation. 1 John 5 tells me that I have Salvation. It's not up to you as a human being to tell me whether or not I am saved. I am not lost. I love Jesus with all my heart and belong to Him. All I've ever wanted was to be by his side for eternity. I'm just as much a Christian as you will ever be. I just don't walk around saying something is something that I'm not a part of or have never been a part of. And every single church or religion has a handful of people who believe their church is it and all of those not a part of it will go to hell. I am almost certain that your church or denomination thinks the same thing. I stand firm in saying that I'm a Seventh Day Adventist and I am NOT lost!
Hi Emily,
I have ONLY decided – based on what is taught within the SDA – that people who religiously follow the teachings of Ellen G. White have a very difficult time finding salvation. But your comment is really ironic. You are not aware of just how many times I have been told – in no uncertain terms – by those within SDA that I am already going to hell because I do not worship on Saturday. Aside from Simon and a few others within SDA, this has been the normal response to me when discussing the issue of salvation with members of the SDA.
In fact, I have been called a heretic simply because I believe that there will be a Pretribulational Rapture of the Church prior to the Tribulation. This – I'm told – is my downfall and will result in my going to hell. I've developed a fairly thick skin over the years. However, it HAS caused me to question what I believe and to thoroughly search the Word to understand where I might be failing, if at all, when it comes to what I believe. There is nothing wrong with that and I'm sorry you have taken umbrage at it.
But please do not accuse me of telling you personally that you are going to hell. I'm in no position to do this. I have simply based my understanding on what I read BY those within SDA and what they have told me personally about SDA. It amazes me how often I hear from folks like yourself within SDA that there are few and far between who believe that anyone outside of SDA is going to hell. That has not been my experience. It has been a majority of people within the SDA who have absolutely no qualms in telling me that I am lost.
Your anger is telling. You've never been told by ANYONE to question what you believe? Moreover, it has never been either directly or indirectly stated to you that you are lost? Wow. I've been on the receiving end of that by people from SDA, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and those within the New Age. Of course, those within the New Age don't say I'm "lost." They simply say that because of my lack of understanding, many more reincarnations will be required until I can get past my archaic and antiquated thinking.
You say that it is a handful of people within various groups who believe their church is THE church, etc. As I've tried to explain to others who have posted comments here related to this article, I am a member of the Protestant faith. There are many denominations and what makes those denominations work together even though the people within them often separate to that particular denomination not over doctrine necessarily, but over modes of worship, or the participation in the Lord's Supper.
Yes, those of us within Protestantism fully believe we are correct. Those within Roman Catholicism also believe they are the only true church. SDA also believes – like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses to name two – that they are the truth church and everyone outside of those groups is lost.
It really is not as you say – that it's merely a handful of people. Within SDA, the essential belief is that within the system of SDA, true light of the gospel is found. Anyone outside of SDA is not truly saved. It is the same thing with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and many other cults/sects too numerous here to mention.
You comparing yourself with me is ridiculous. You have no more understanding of my true heart condition than I of yours, yet you say without equivocation that you are as much a Christian as I am. How do you know? You cannot truly measure anything within me, so who is judging whom?
Look Emily, if you believe you have the truth, wonderful. If you believe yourself to be an authentic Christian, tremendous. Did you read Jason's comments posted before yours?
My concern is for PEOPLE and their salvation. That – believe it or not – is a GOOD thing. I do not want people to depart into eternity without KNOWING Jesus. If you KNOW Him and are in relationship TO Him, then you have absolutely nothing to fear.
I'm afraid that you do not know as much about SDA and Ellen G. White as I do. I could be wrong there as well, but I am always seeking God's truth and I have not arrived to the point where I believe I have it all. Do you?
I am a Christian of no particular religion (religion being defined as Lutheran, baptist, etc). I believe in the fudamental basis of Christianity, Christ is God always, virgin born (to a sinful mother) born a man in the flesh, he died, rose again and my faith in him is my salvation, without him there is no salvation. And all scripture is devine, for teaching and correcting wrongfulness.
My dad is SDA and desperatly wants me to convert because to him I am not saved. I have researched SDA, and compared it with the bible, and I cannot in good faith accept SDA teachings.
SDA churches take words out of context, by which I mean that John and Paul wrote in Greek. John wrote Revelation and used entole for commandments, while in his other writings used Nomos for reference to the Law of the OT. Jeremiah 31:31 states that there is a new covenant coming; Isaiah 1:11-14 and Hosea 2:11 stated that the old law will be done away with. Christ being God had both the right and authority to give laws, which he did (love God, and your neighbor, comunion etc.) These are the Entole of Christ
The SDA teach that they are the remenant church of Revelation, yet it is clear that the remenant are the 144 thousand Jews, 12 thousand of the twelve tribes that are sealed by God. Revelation 7:3-10
I feel for you having to answer the same thing over and over. At least your questioners are civil, when I try to talk to my dad he gets angry when he runs out of "proof" for his beliefs
God bless you in tying to reach the lost in SDA.
Yours in Christ
If your definition of a cult is that your lose salvation by leaving it, you really need to include Catholicism in this list. Seventh-day Adventists don't believe that you gain salvation by being a Seventh-day Adventist. You receive salvation by the grace of God and your love for Him compels you to keep His commandments. That's why they worship on Saturday, the seventh day. "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." That's a commandment, every bit as much as "Thou shalt not kill," or "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," are commandments. And I have never personally heard any Seventh-day Adventist regard someone who chooses to leave the church as lost or condemned. Yes, they believe they have the truth and it is an important part of their walk with Christ, but doesn't every church believe that? Why would you worship with a group of people who say, "Well, we don't really know if our fundamental doctrines are true, but they sound good enough." The reason there are denominations is because people have interpreted the Bible in different ways, and they all believe they are right and others are wrong. That doesn't mean we have to pass judgement on those who disagree with us. That isn't our place, and the Bible will tell you that. We just have to do the best we have with the light God gives to us, and that is what we will be judged on in the end. I do know, however, that Catholics believe they are the only denomination that will be saved. To leave the church equals irrevocable damnation. In fact, to disagree with the church or the Pope in any respect is a sin. I don't know a lot about Jehovah's Witness or Mormons, but I know your views on Seventh-day Adventists are misinformed and your exclusion of Catholicism, the most cult-like Christian denomination of them all, from this list of "cults" unveils your bias against all those who disagree with you.
You know what I wish? I wish people like you would actually read my words for meaning instead of superimposing your meaning over my words. I never said that a cult is defined by the belief that a person can lose salvation. Though I mentioned that as being what I consider to be one of the aberrant teachings within SDA, it is by no means the determiner of why I believe SDA to be a cult.
In essence, without Ellen G. White, there would be no Seventh-day Adventism. Her errors are many and well documented. It surprises me when I hear people say "I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, but I do not pay attention to what White taught." That's kind of like admitting to being a Mormon but denying the "truth" of Joseph Smith. You cannot have one without the other. If a person really ignores White's teachings, then the question to ask is why are you still part of the SDA system?
If people continue to call themselves members of the SDA, yet ignore the teachings of Ellen G. White, I suppose that individual can be a true Christian, just like someone within Catholicism can actually be an authentic Christian while ignoring or denying many of the aberrant teachings of Roman Catholicism. Most, however, wind up leaving Catholicism (as my wife did, for instance), or Mormonism, or Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., once they come to a realization of the truth.
At its root, many of Ellen G. White's teachings and beliefs are completely incompatible with Scripture, in my opinion. There is even a serious question as to White's alleged plagiarism, which has been shown to have at least some veracity in the charge.
If you look at the history of SDA, it becomes clear that it was founded on a wrong principle in the first place: The Great Disappointment. I don't have time to go into it, but Ellen G. White attempted to take something that was wrong (the predicted date of Jesus' physical return by Miller) and turn it into something true (that Jesus DID return, albeit spiritually and He began His judgment at that time and is continuing it now). This is absurd and has been roundly shown for what it is, yet there are many associated with SDA who prefer to continue blindly along their path believing that White simply made a mistake. The entire system of SDA rests on her shoulders, unfortunately.
I'm aware of why SDAs worship on Saturday and I've gone round and round with these same SDAs about it to no avail.
As far as my "bias" is concerned, that bias exists in your mind. I have tried to fairly and accurately present what I consider to be some of the error within the SDA system. More often than not, people who ARE in that SDA system will tell me one of two things: 1) I am wrong and going to hell, or 2) They are an SDA yet do not follow the teachings of Ellen G. White. This second group also denies that the SDAs in the first group represent a large number of SDAs. They are the "fringe" of the group. From my study, that does not seem to be the case.
As far as what constitutes a cult, the definition is really not precisely clear since people ascribe their own meaning to the word. As far as the authentic Christian is concerned, a cult would be a system of belief whereby individuals within that system normally look to someone other than Christ as the final arbiter of truth. Yet, that is not a thoroughly clear understanding either. For instance, every true cult began by at least one person, who eventually was seen by the followers as being the beacon of truth. Joseph Smith fits this category, as does Charles Taze Russell. Ellen G. White also fits the bill since as I mentioned, without her, SDA would not really exist.
At the same time, simply because a cult (or even a denomination) looks to one particular individual, this does not necessarily mean that the group they represent is a cult. Martin Luther, Calvin, and many others, some of whom began their own denominations were looked up to and in some ways venerated. John Wesley or Charles Wesley were both instrumental in forming Methodism as a denomination. The Wesley brothers both maintained an Arminian view of salvation, as opposed to Calvinism because of their connection with the Church of England at the time. In its initial stages, the Methodist movement was a call to know Jesus personally as Savior and Lord. Unfortunately, over the years much error (in my opinion) has become part and parcel to the denomination, severely muddying the waters for the average individual within Methodism.
Ultimately, a cult – as far as the authentic Christian is concerned – is determined based on that group's view of the five fundamentals of the faith. Do they believe Jesus is God, Savior, and Lord. That's a good question for you to answer too, Red. Do you believe that Jesus was and remains God, the Second Person of the Trinity?
Moreover, one of the main determiners of truth related to cults is how they view salvation. I'm not talking about whether or not it can be lost (though that is an important topic). I'm talking about how salvation is received and how salvation is maintained.
You say that after receiving salvation, "your love for Him compels you to keep His commandments." Then you list several commandments, one of which is worshiping on Saturday (the Sabbath). So, if someone STOPS worshiping on Saturday, then one would naturally conclude that their salvation is in danger of being lost, according to you. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost because we are told in numerous places that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. I'm aware of the arguments in favor of a person being able to lose salvation, but I disagree with them.
In essence then, while you state that salvation is fully by grace, you admit that MAINTAINING salvation is by WORKS, or by your own effort to follow His laws. In that sense then, you would of necessity say that my salvation is in question solely because I do not worship on Saturday and therefore, I routinely break one of the Ten Commandments. That is the natural end of the argument based on your beliefs.
You DO know then that there are 613 actual commands within the Mosaic Law, correct, not just ten? While some of those were given specifically to the Levitical priesthood, the rest were to be obeyed and honored by the average Jewish person within the nation of Israel. What this means is that while you are busy observing the main ten commandments, there are hundreds that you routinely IGNORE, likely out of ignorance, or because it is taught in your sect that only the main Ten Commandments are to be obeyed.
I could take the time to point out that the early Christians actually met on the "first day of the week" to worship, which was Sunday. I could point out that Jesus Himself upheld all of the commandments and even specifically mentioned and supported NINE of the main Ten Commandments, but when it came to worshiping on the Sabbath, Jesus also clearly indicated that He was Lord of the Sabbath. I could do my best to show you that all of the commands of the OT were summed up in TWO commands; that we should love the Lord with all of our heart, mind, and soul, and treat your neighbor as yourself.
The reality is that people who live by the law are obligated to follow all of it (cf. Galatians 5:3). Though Paul was speaking of circumcision here (which is no longer a requirement, since it was God's covenant with Jewish people of Israel), the general upshot of his comments are to be taken to mean that those who willingly place themselves under one part of the law are obligated to obey all of it. I doubt seriously that you obey the hundreds of laws provided by Moses, do you? I can't imagine that you do. You simply obey what those within SDA have defined as God's law – normally seen as the Ten Commandments. The other 603 are essentially ignored by you.
Your comment – "That doesn't mean we have to pass judgement on those who disagree with us. That isn't our place, and the Bible will tell you that." – is misguided. My sole point is that IF someone is going to follow the teachings of Ellen G. White to the letter (or even the majority of her teachings), salvation will be difficult at best to find and receive. That is simply placing a judgment on what Ellen G. White has taught. I am not passing judgment on individual people within SDA, but it is clear that for those thoroughly immersed within a false system (such as Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, SDA, Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, The Unification Church, etc., etc., etc.), the ability to receive authentic salvation is severely hampered at best.
For instance…do I believe Mitt Romney is a Christian? Only God knows his actual heart, but if I base my understanding on what Mormonism actually teaches, and understand that as a "good" Mormon, Mitt Romney is a practicing Mormon and adheres to the teachings of Mormonism, then NO, he cannot be an authentic Christian. (I may be wrong there where his heart is concerned, but I'm judging what Mormonism teaches.) Why? Because of the Mormon view of Jesus and the Mormon view of salvation, along with many other things that are part and parcel of Mormonism that do not square with the Bible.
Seventh-day Adventism, like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses (and sure, throw in Roman Catholicism, if it makes you feel better) all ADD to Scripture. They look to at least one individual who is seen as the "head" of that particular system. With Roman Catholicism, it is each new pope. With SDA, it is Ellen G. White. With Mormonism, it was Joseph Smith and then Brigham Young and so it goes.
It's fine to write a COMMENTARY about aspects of the Bible. Unfortunately, groups like the ones mentioned all add their own written (or oral) works that are venerated either equally WITH the Bible, or are seen as being ABOVE the Bible in truth. Whether people within the SDA system hold Ellen G. White's books and writings in such a regard is an important point and even for those within SDA who do not, the plain fact of the matter is that many within SDA DO highly esteem White's writings, to the extent that they will take her word over biblical truth. This is when things become cultish.
Regarding the numerous denominations that you mentioned, you need to distinguish between cults and denominations. Most denominations believe generally the same fundamentals of the faith. The differences lie in things like the style of music used in a worship service, whether or not communion should be done once per month or every week, and things of this nature. These preferences do not take away from the fundamentals of the faith, like the virgin birth of Jesus, His final and complete propitiation for our sin, His death and resurrection, His Second Coming, and more. Some people do not like modern worship music, so they look for a church where hymns are the mainstay. This is why there are denominations.
Cults usually revolve around one (or two) main people who teach to that group as if what they say is from the very mouth of God. In that sense then, those teachings are given a loftier position than the Bible, God's Word. If they say something that differs with the revealed will of God in His Word, THEIR teachings are given a higher place than the Bible.
So whether you place that type of emphasis on Ellen G. White's teachings/words is for you to decide. Unfortunately, there are MANY within the SDA system who DO place that type of emphasis on Ellen G. White's teachings and many of her teachings when compared with Scripture are either found severely wanting, or they are absolutely anti-biblical.
I belief you get salvation by the gift of salvation just like other Christians. I believe that the "work" that is taught is actually obedience and the way you live your life. It's like when you first meet someone and you don't like them so you don't want to do what is asked but as you grow to love them you find that you enjoy doing what they ask? It's that kind of thing.
The Sabbath day is not the only thing that separates my religion from the rest of the world. The state of the dead and the Second Coming also play a role.
And I would like to say this. Every church or religion has at least one person who believes you will go to hell if you are no longer a member of that denomination. Every single one. That doesn't make the religion or church itself a cult. And yes you know, the church does believe in a prophet named Ellen White. But I was raised entirely without her. I was raised on the Bible and I was taught to question things by my dad. My understanding of Biblical things comes from questions I've asked and studying and praying about things on my own time. I believe that we have the state of the dead correct. The Second Coming as well, though I'm not sure what separates it from all other religions.
All I'm saying is that the Seventh Day Adventists are not as wrong as you feel we are. I'm a Seventh Day Adventist but when I talk with others I just tell them I'm Christian because that's what I am first and foremost.
And another thing, one of the things I appreciate about my church is they prepare you for what's to come in the End of the World. That's what the Seventh Day Adventists do. Or at least from my understanding and I feel that because I have been prepared I now know how to be strong or I have been given the tools to remain strong in the end. The end of the world is not going to be easy and I gladly welcome it. I know it's going to be full of persecution and I for one am proud to say that I will stand for Jesus no matter what. I think it's great that Christian churches teach Salvation because it is needed and I want everyone to know about it. But recently I have begun to wonder if they are also being prepared for what is to come.
And you're right, just because a church teaches good morals and great work ethic when it comes to Jesus doesn't mean they're Christian. But from what I have seen from hanging out with the LDS, at least, they know how to be passionate about what they believe in whether it's right or wrong. And the LDS church does have some things right. Not all, as I will agree to that. But they do have things that other Nondenominational Christians churches lack. Sometimes it appears to me that people are beginning to be taught less and less on what it means to be Christian and truly Christian and use the name just to make themselves look good. I know what it means to be Christian and I'm grateful for the Adventist background for helping me keep my morals straight. I'm not saying that all Adventists keep their morals straight because I have friends and family who have strayed which is why we need the gift of salvation. But I am saying that I am grateful for the way I was raised, because I know that the Seventh Day Adventist Church as proof that I could not have gained from anywhere else. I am sorry you see my church as a cult but just know that I'm not going to hell because of what denomination I wear as a name. The name does not save nor condemn you.
That's what I have to say. That I can write this without lying to you that I am a Seventh Day Adventist Christian. Maybe instead of looking at the overall church, maybe you should look at the individual people as well.
All of that said, I do appreciate what you are doing. There are things I have learned about the LDS church and I wish my friend really knew the truth about some things. I understand your passion to share the truth because all I want right now is to share Jesus with him and that Jesus offers the Gift of Salvation. Working for your place in Heaven isn't necessary. All God asks in turn is that we live our lives so that others may see Him through us and repent so they can live with Him in the end. But with that change of heart comes a new life.
I think the SDA church is evolving just like I read in one of the comments above. I have heard sermons preached that aren't necessarily welcomed by all members of the church but they reflect and agree more with Christianity rather than just being strict Adventist doctrine. Honestly, I believe both the LDS and the SDA church has some good things about them. But it's up to the members individually, to decide if they will step out and really go after a relationship with Jesus because that's what truly matters. The SDA, Catholics, LDS, they're all just titles and they do nothing for your salvation.
My definition is in Jesus 🙂
Hi Emily,
Thanks for your thoughts.
If it were not for Ellen G. White, there would be no Seventh-day Adventism, for all practical purposes. There are numerous areas where – in my strong opinion – Ellen G. White misses the boat completely. While we can gain immeasurable insight from scholars and commentators alike, they are – in the end – human beings whose writings are not inspired by God the way the Bible was/is inspired.
The trouble is that Mormons (as merely one example) fully believe that they are actual Christians, yet they have a different view of salvation, the virgin birth, the Trinity and they also believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers (created beings).
Again I'll say, that if you believe you have authentic salvation, that is terrific. My goals in writing these individual articles for this blog is to point out what I perceive to be error between certain denominations/sects/cults and Holy Scripture. Not all error pulls people AWAY from authentic salvation, but unfortunately, much of it seems to do just that and THAT is my main concern.
Yes, LDS people are often passionate about what they believe. But so are Muslims and if you stop to consider it, anyone who is part of any ideology believes wholeheartedly in what they follow. If not, they are simply going through the motions, which does nothing for them.
It reminds me of watching "The Godfather." There, mobsters were very "religious" and even went to Mass. Their children were baptized as infants and they would pray the rosary. Were they truly "saved"? How could they be since their lives were the type of lives that Jesus, the apostle Paul, and the other writers of various books of the Bible condemn?
I respect your opinions, Emily. But I have to respectfully disagree with your statement when you said "I believe both the LDS and SDA church has some good things about them." While that may appear to be true from a human perspective, the problem often goes far deeper than many seem to understand. The major problems with Mormonism alone leave me greatly concerned for those folks – folks that God loves immensely. If they are wrong about salvation, then it does not matter what they might be right about. If they are wrong about salvation, they have effectively rejected the Jesus (God) of the Bible. If they reject Jesus and His salvation, it doesn't matter (at least as far as eternity is concerned) that they appear to be "morally good" people to the rest of us.
I realize that my "love" for people may not be perfect. I also recognize that my understanding of God and the Bible is not fully complete and it won't either. My greatest desire is to see people come to salvific knowledge of Jesus Christ. I can't NOT point out what I believe may be the type of error that keeps people from coming to Jesus for that very salvation.
You know, if I were walking down the street and saw a house on fire with people near the windows who seemed oblivious to the danger, I would do everything I could to warn them. I would not simply gently engage them in conversation saying, "Hi. I thought I'd point out to you that the home you are in is in serious danger of burning down and may take you with it. My strong suggestion is that you consider the fact that you might want to get out of the house in order to be saved. It's up to you, of course as I do not want to offend you. I am merely trying to tell you that the house you are in is burning. I realize though that I could be wrong. Maybe it's not really burning at all. I'm not an expert in fires so maybe I'm confused about it. It's up to you what you do. I hope you have a good evening.."
If I saw someone inside a burning house, I would do everything I could to alert them of the danger that it poses to them. I would yell to get their attention. I would do whatever I could to distract them in order to help them understand the imminent danger that the fire poses. To me, this is a life or death situation and I would rather be overly zealous rather than not zealous enough.
I think too many have this idea about "love." Christians are never supposed to "judge" anything because supposedly that's wrong. They think "judge not, lest ye be judged" means we can never point out anything that is wrong. This in itself is wrong, in my view, because "judge not lest ye be judged" is specifically pointing to not judging a person's MOTIVES or INTENTIONS, which we cannot see. However, Jesus specifically states that we can and should make a "righteous judgement" by pointing out things that are either error or wrong. This we do in spite of the fact that it may appear to be "judgmental" or even harsh, but we do it because we LOVE the person and do not want them to spend eternity in hell.
I know what it's like to be called a heretic, or to be told that I am going to hell for one reason or another. Seventh-day Adventists have told me I'm going to hell because I don't worship on Saturdays. Others have told me I am going to hell because I am a PreTribber. Mormons have told me that unless I become a Mormon, I am lost forever. My aunt spent her entire adult life as a Jehovah's Witness, who also believed that anyone who was NOT a Jehovah's Witness has no hope of salvation.
These people are passionate about what they believe, but I believe they are passionately wrong. It is because of that, my passion dictates that I must point out what I believe to be error that keeps them from authentic salvation.
People tend to think that Jesus "loved" people and never raised His voice or became angry. These people have not read the gospels because if they had, they would know that on several occasions He became extremely angry with people and even called them things that would raise people's eyebrows today. Beyond this, He overturned the money changers' tables in the outer court of the Temple, literally chasing them out of the area with a whip. This is not the Jesus that people are comfortable with so they often think of Jesus in terms of a Gandhi-like character – love, love, love.
Sometimes, love has a serious and even harsh side. Why? Because love is desperate to bring people to repentance and true salvation. Love will go into the burning house and yell at people to get their attention, even physically pulling them out of the house before they die. It's not always gentle kisses, smiles, and an ethereal approach to life. This life is serious business. I consider myself to be behind enemy lines (Ephesians 6) and like the soldier who is sent there on a specific mission, my job is to introduce as many people as possible to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Doing so may open their eyes to the truth.
This is the job of the authentic Christian who has been given the ability to see and embrace the truth. Keeping it to ourselves is really not an option. It was not an option with Jesus. It was not an option with Paul. It is not an option with us.
Thanks again for writing, Emily.
Hi Fred,
A very interesting blog you have here. It helped me clear up a discussion that I was having with my Mormon friend. She wanted to know why the Christian world views us as "different." I am an SDA; born and raised and still practicing.I will say that for someone who has never been an SDA, you seem to have some very strong opinions about the faith and you seem very defensive of your position that SDA's are crazed, cultic, lunatics that put E.G. White teachings over the Bible and legalistically hold to Sabbath keeping and dietary restrictions for salvation. At least that's how your responses sounded last year, at the start of this comment thread…I haven't read all of your more recent comments. I'm curious to know in which region of the U.S. you live and what S.D.A. churches have you been in lately or what S.D.A.'s have you interacted with lately? I have to agree with Simon and the other more moderate SDA commenters (which were the majority). that the SDA church of this generation is not so far off the deep end as you want to depict it. Especially not in southern California (where I live) where the great Loma Linda and La Sierra universities are. We have very progressive pastors, church leaders and members who are first and foremost CHRISTIAN. I attend church weekly and I never hear from the pulpit that people from other Christian faiths are going to be lost…in fact, most of the time I hear the opposite! One church that I attended had a cross-over service where an AME preacher came to our church on Saturday and preached and our preacher preached at the AME church on Sunday. At the church where I currently attend we interact with other Christians all of the time and I've never heard anyone say they have a problem with it.
I'll give you that in certain sects of adventism, this fundamentalist, legalistic, ideology of which you write prevails but certainly not in all! And it truly isn't the core theology of the church. I agree with Simon,"who are you to say that we are not REAL SDA'S? Unless my church leadership tells me that and locks me out the church doors I will not accept it! I think that for the purposes of this article you wrote, you need all SDA's to be "hard core" but I'm sorry, we just aren't all like that. And that type of adventism, from what I've seen, is becoming fringe.
I won't take the time to respond to all your points or criticisms. Let me say that I do not need to be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness in order to know whether they are wrong. It's a fairly simple matter of comparing what they teach to Scripture and that is my final authority.
If you fully believe that you possess true salvation, then that's what you believe. My objective was merely to point out that following the myriad teachings of Ellen G White is not going to direct a person to authentic salvation.
I understand you have not read all the comments. If you do that you'll find that I have been told by any numbers of SDA people that I'm already going to hell because I do not worship on Saturday.
Steve Wohlberg and Doug Batchelor – two well known teachers within SDA espouse this belief.
Maybe I'm dealing with "the fringe" as you say. It simply seems to me that this fringe group is much larger than you think.
Since you are convinced that you do have true salvation, I am hopeful then that you are reaching out to those within the fringe group, who unfortunately still follow White's teachings and end working for a salvation they can never earn.
Yes, I do consider myself to be a strong advocate against fanaticism, false belief systems and any other teachings that might separate from a true understanding of God's love and plan of salvation. That being said, I know that I'm not perfect and I still struggle in my own Christian walk so who am I to judge people that adhere to a more fundamentalist path? Perhaps I'm wrong for that thinking and should be more convicted to show people the error of their ways. If so, God will have to reveal that to me.
In spite of being raised SDA and in SDA schools my Ellen White anthology and history is fuzzy. But I have read the book, The Desire of Ages, and it clearly teaches salvation by faith and that we have nothing to do with our own salvation outside of believing in Jesus. I've also read the book Steps to Christ and it is very Biblical and I felt it was uplifting me in my spiritual walk. As Simon said in earlier posts, it wasn't until after the 1920's that the SDA estate took personal letters that she had written to specific people and compiled them into books that were sold on the premise of being used for everyone and applying to all times. Not all SDA's follow ALL of these admonishments and that doesn't make us terrible SDA's (take Europe for example: in Italy the SDA's drink red wine and dance at their socials…I was there, so I know). E.G. White herself never intended for these letters to be used to in place of the Bible and she wrote about her own struggles to follow everything she was writing (especially in the realm of diet). I also know that in her early years she was banished by the church to Australia (the then "boondocks") because they didn't fully agree with or support her position on grace and salvation by faith.
The bottom line is that churches/denominations grow and evolve. The SDA's of my generation are not the same as those of my parents' generation and I'm sure they won't be the same in my son's generation. The core tenants of the church shouldn't change, but a lot of the cultural stuff has and will continue to change. I don't know enough about the LDS and JW's to say the same about them but I will say that from observing my friends who are in those religions I think SDA's may have cultish tendencies but we are not a cult. At least the evangelical SDA's aren't and we are a larger group than you might think.
I don't know of Steve Wohlberg but I do know of Doug Batchelor and have been to his church. The average age in that church is probably 70 so his beliefs and teachings are more traditional, which is common for the SDA's of the older generation.
If you want to take an inside look at relevant Adventism today go to rubitv.tv . You can watch on Saturdays at 11:00 PST or check out the archives. Be sure to watch more than one sermon because we have several preachers who all have their own style and approach…and that's allowed ;=).
I have read a great deal of the official writings of SDA as well as Mormonisn and more. We are not talking about fundamentalism. We are talkIng about ERROR.
You absolutely are required biblically to help people understand the truth of God's authentic salvation. There are those within SDA who wrongly believe that worshiping on any day other than Saturday will get you a one way ticket to hell. Many also believe salvation can be lost. These things are error. There are many things – in my opinion – that do not square with God's Word.
God has already revealed exactly what our approach to the unsaved should be and those who have embraced the type of error. He has done this throughout His Word. I'm not sure why you think He needs to "reveal" it to you when He has already done so in His Word. We should, not because of some misplaced pride in thinking we are correct but because SOULS hang in the balance! Hiding behind the "who am I?" is not good enough because we are to rely on the authority of God's Word, not how we FEEL about something.
You say on one hand with seeming humility that you do not believe you have an obligation to "witness" to those in error. Yet you have no problem doing that with me. This belies the fact that maybe you aren't as humble as you think you are being. Only you would know that.
Does it matter to you that people MAY be on their way to HELL?! If you don't discuss with them the error that they have embraced that may well be keeping them from authentic salvation, who will?
I'm not doing what I'm doing here on this blog because I want to argue with people. I'm doing what I do because my heart goes out to people who certainly seem to be quite possibly on their way to an eternal separation from God! THAT concerns me greatly.
If you can take the time to correct what you believe is wrong in MY beliefs here, then surely you can take the time to correct the mistaken beliefs of those within SDA. After all they are far more likely to listen to you than me. It is for that purpose God may have raised you up. In fact, it seems that you are here more to defend SDA (as Simon does) than to agree that there are likely people WITHIN the SDA system that desperately need the biblical truth that you say you have.
I will say to both you AND Simon: GET TO IT before another misguided soul from the ranks of SDA slips into eternity and their blood will be on your hands. Read through Ezekiel to learn what God said to the prophet. We ALL have an obligation to correct error (as we see and understand it), both according to Jesus and Paul and the other writers of the Bible. If we truly LOVE people, will want to see them saved. We will NOT stay on the sidelines, under the falsely humble guise of "whom am I to tell anyone that they could be wrong?" That is purely a satanic attitude that keeps people from evangelizing. The Great Commission is the one mandate that Jesus gave all of His disciples. That includes YOU.
A person who is a Mormon cannot be saved IF they believe what is taught within Mormonism. It is the same with Jehovah's Witnesses. Within SDA, there is enough error that can easily sidetrack people AWAY from authentic salvation. This doesn't seem to concern you at all, because it would appear that you are more concerned about not offending. For God's sake (and theirs) be willing to "offend" someone with the truth, just as Jesus did on a multitude of occasions.
We are done here. Thank you for (hopefully) being a living witness to His grace, love, and light to those who are yet in darkness.
nothing more than*
I'm not sure where your comment here goes in your previous comments, Emily.
So Seventh Day Adventists are a protestant faith. I think it would benefit you or help you in your… I don't want to say argument, but maybe your goals? To really take the time to learn about the faiths. I have been studying Mormonism for the past 7 months and where as I will admit that event though it appears Christian, I feel as though it is lacking something. Take the time to learn about Adventism. I think you would find that whereas both groups may appear as cultish they have some good values. And I would tell you, that at least in my life as an SDA member, we are not as far off the mark as it may seem. I know those who stick solely to the rules of the SDA church and then I know of those who actually have a relationship with Christ and want nothing more to share Him with the world for the sake of Salvation. We also have people that study the end times and that's what my church also focuses on. Preparing the world for the end. We really aren't as much of a cult as we appear. Not all of us accept all or most of Ellen White's teachings. I was raised without them. But I am grateful to be raised in a church that not only takes God and salvation seriously, but morals as well. I encourage you to spend some time with SDA and LDS members if you haven't already done so or do so. I know not all SDA and LDS members appear Christian or kind. But then there's a lot of us who do are truly Christian.
I've spent years studying both Mormonism and SDA. I've also spent time talking with people from both faiths.
The reality for me at least is that good values and morals are fine, but they do not, in and of themselves provide salvation. There are many people in this world who have what we would consider to be good moral values and while it is tempting to say that they might seem to be "saved" or even "Christian," the truth of the matter is that only those who "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation," (Romans 10:9-10). This is the difference between authentic Christianity and cults (or even most extreme sects).
Moreover, the five fundamentals of the faith are often missing. For instance, within Mormonism, there is no belief in a Trinity as defined in God's Word. The Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) to the Mormon is far different from that which is taught in Scripture. Beyond this, Jesus is understood to be the equal brother of Lucifer. Scripture does not teach this at all. In fact, it teaches that Jesus was/is the God-Man; fully God and fully Man (through the incarnation process).
There are many stark and clear differences between Mormonism and Christianity and some of those same differences are seen between Christianity and what many of the teachings by Ellen G. White upon which SDA was founded.
You are absolutely correct that there are those within SDA who do not necessarily agree with at least some of the teachings of Ellen G. White. I have met others though who have told me that because I do not worship on Saturday, I am on my way to hell. It's a wide variety.
Thanks for your comments.
We don't claim to be an orthodox Christian church. We're a protestant church. But just because I'm SDA doesn't mean I'm part of a cult. I have been taught to think on my own and I'm just as much a Christian as you are. I am comfortable in my own religion and that is why I have not moved on from it. Also, I don't know that I can join another church that has the same beliefs I do. That sounds really discriminative and I'm not trying to be. I know what it means to truly be Christian. I have spent time studying Paul's letters. Right now though, the SDA church's beliefs match a lot of what I was raised with. And because I was raised in the SDA church I kind of get to make this my own thing. Whereas I don't agree with the man made doctrine, I do believe in the Ultimate Truth which every church teaches. I do not believe we are the one true church and I believe that all of those who are followers of Christ and live their lives in obedience to him are the one true church. I believe the one true church is Christian. Let me ask you something, Are you SDA or Mormon?
Thank you for your comments.
I am neither SDA or Mormon. I am an authentic Christian within the Protestant denomination.
Ill pray for people like you to open your eyes. God bless you.
My goal is that people caught in the web of cults will have their eyes open to the truth of God's Word. Maybe that will happen for you one day. I pray that it does.
I have been a Seventh day Adventist for 34 years, and whereas I am not a theology expert I would like to share my perspective on a few things. Our church is comprised of humans like any other church and that causes us to err frequently. And like most other Christians we seek what is true so that we can do God's will. I believe, as well as many SDA's and LDS's that I know, that we are judged according to our willingness to follow the light that we are given. The only works by which we can claim salvation are those of Jesus Christ. We play but a minor role in the plan of salvation. We are called to believe in the Lord Jesus and we will be saved. That belief would be impossible without the gift of faith. As with any talent and gift that we are given by God, we must use it so that it can be maintained and grow. This occurs via an ongoning relationship with Christ. We ask Him to accompany us on our journey and allow Him to change us along the way. Because we love God and desire to obey Him, we follow His law as we are personally and as a church convicted to follow. We do these things as an act of recipricating love and obedience, not as a means to salvation. If we fail to follow the laws God writes upon our hearts, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins as long as that is what we choose. Freewill and agency have been granted to us by God, and that includes the right to turn away from Him if we so desire. Once we are saved after accepting Christ as our savior, the gift of our agency has not been revoked. If we sin, which we will, it is our choice to remain in that sin or to exercise our belief that Christ can supernaturally transform us. This was dramatically illustrated when Peter asked Jesus if he could walk out to meet Him on the water. Peter's continuation of his faith in his friend Jesus directly correlated to Peter's ability to walk on the water or to sink and perish in the sea. By faith we must continue in our relationship with Christ or when He returns He will sadly say "I know you not." Does He factor in our obedience to His law when judging us? Would your husband our wife factor in your fidelity and acts of service when determining if you have a loving relationship? When Jesus returns He will ask if we have given water to the thirsty, fed the hungry, and clothed the naked, not because it is on our checklist of works, but because when we know Christ those are some of the things we do. By their fruit you shall know them. Are SDA's, LDS's, and Jehovah's Witnesses trapped in a cult? Only if we disregard the leading of the Spirit and blindly follow a course of salvation prescibed only by man. I would say most of us are trying to follow our convictions as passionately as the author of this blog seems to follow his. That does not me that there are several paths to heaven. Ther exists a straight and narrow path and God will only judge us on our faith that we are on that path which leads to Him.
Hi Chad,
Thanks for offering your personal opinion about Seventh-day Adventism. When I write about an organization on this blog, I do so normally based on the official position, in this case, Ellen G. White's espoused personal opinion or that of leaders who came after her.
In that case, there is a good deal that strikes me as simply wrong; diametrically opposed to Scripture. I realize that there are those who disagree with me, but what I'm doing is basing my judgment on the teachings of Ellen G. White herself.
In your case, either you are:
a) completely unaware of White's polity when it comes to the doctrinal position of SDA,
b) aware of her position, yet you disagree with it
c) aware of her position, and you agree with it, but explain it uniquely as you've done above to remove or not even touch on the problem areas of the SDA faithSalvation is thorughly based on faith in Christ and His redemptive work; nothing more and certainly nothing less. I agree in part with what you state in your comments to me, however, your statement – "When Jesus returns He will ask if we have given water to the thirsty, fed the hungry, and clothed the naked, not because it is on our checklist of works, but because when we know Christ those are some of the things we do" – is actually referring to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. In that case, that particular judgment occurs AFTER the period of Great Tribulation that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24 (Olivet Discourse). The basis of the judgment then is how the people of the various nations treated the Jews during that time (The Tribulation). Only those who will be truly saved (since it is yet future) during that time will treat the Jews with any dignity and will actually want to help them, since the Antichrist will unleash his power from hell to overcome all Jews.
You and I could go round and round on various aspects of SDA theology. As noted, it appears that you either believe something that is entirely different from official SDA doctrine, (in which case I would ask why you are part of the SDA sect at all), you agree with them and are explaining your position apart from official SDA doctrine, or you don't agree with them and have a separate understanding. I can't answer that question for you – only you can do that.
One of the main problems with SDA theology and the sect itself is the way in which it began. Ellen G. White is either a false prophet or a true one. She is the main individual to whom all SDA adherents look and without her, there is no Seventh-day Adventism. Certainly, SDA adherents would argue that they look to God and White was merely an individual God so chose to shed more light on His truth.
Apart from the above, the essential difficulties with SDA theology (aside from the Sabbath day only worship (Saturday as I've discussed with others here), is that Seventh-day Adventism openly denies the biblical doctrine of predestination (in contradiction to Eph. 1:1-11), denies the doctrine of the immortality of the soul (in contradiction to Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:46), and denies eternal hellfire (in contradiction to Rev. 14:11). Beyond this, there is the difficulty with any group that affirms that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and that the wicked are annihilated (in contradiction to Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:46).
In short, there are major problem areas within Seventh-day Adventism that are in direct opposition to orthodox Christianity.
If you are unaware of the above, or know of them and yet disagree with the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist sect, that's great. But if one takes seriously the claims of SDA, then it is difficult to come away believing that what is espoused within SDA is actual Christian theology.
As far as Latter Day Saints (LDS), they also have numerous theological problems and the fact that like SDA, they have a book that has in essence taken the place of the Bible (in addition to), this is cause for great concern. Ellen G. White's writings are hallowed by many within SDA. Her teachings are what make the SDA, the SDA. Take those teachings away and you are essentially left with the Bible.
I hope Chad, that you will continue to search the Scriptures and ask God to help you determine the truth (or not) within SDA. You are likely (though I do not know this for certain) someone who takes seriously the concept of worshiping on Saturday, as opposed to Sunday. I've dealt with it with a number of other individuals who have responded to my blog. Some who claim to be SDA say that worshiping on Saturday doesn't matter. Others say it does. I personally have been told by any numbers of SDA adherents that those who forsake worshiping on the Sabbath (Saturday) are in danger of going to hell. Steve Wohl (along with Doug Batchelor) believe and teach that the times and seasons were changed by a Pope and because of that, the world is deceived and will likely wind up taking the mark of the beast (for those alive during the time of the Antichrist).
SDA weaves a very convoluted trail, Chad. I believe that it is impossible to truly be saved within SDA IF a person adheres to the teachings of Ellen G. White. Yes, she was human. Unfortunately, she is seen as a prophet by the majority of those within SDA. Was she? If so, she has taught wrong doctrine making her at the very least, a false teacher.
Like all of us, we need to constantly "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Though this does not mean that we actually WORK for our salvation, it DOES mean that we need to take responsibility for the active pursuit of obedience in the process of SANCTIFICATION. Just as importantly, we need to make sure that what we believe is what God's Word teaches.
There is only one thing which separates the wide path that leads to destruction from the narrow path that leads to life. It is faith only in the finished work of Christ. While you say that, it is clear that there is much doctrinal teaching within SDA that appears to negate it.
Exodus 18:20 And thou shalt teach them "ordinances" and "laws", and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
Definition of Ordinance: a religious ritual of special significance. Such as things that pre-figured Christ like the killing of lambs. It can also be: a law made by a municipality or other local authority. Moses was the "local" authority. Apparently the laws and the ordinances were two separate things.
Colossians 2:14 14 Blotting out the handwriting of "ordinances" that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
"If" the ten commandments were "nailed" to the cross then….we can worship idols, murder, steal our neighbors belongings, disrespect our mother and father. Really?
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.-
Hi Sue,
What God nailed to the cross (through Jesus) was our INDEBTEDNESS because of sin that was created under the Law. In other words, the Law (as explained in Romans 6-7) is righteous, holy, and good. Its job is/was to point out sin and failure. It does its job very well. Because of it, no one can gain salvation by observing the Law because we cannot live free of sin. This of course, is due to the sin nature within us. Even as authentic Christians, we continue to live with our sin nature.
The Law actually causes sin to be seen as it is: utterly sinful.
So when Jesus died on the cross, my individual DEBT created because of the existence of the Law (and my own propensity to sin) was nailed to that cross. Because of my faith in the cross work of Christ, my INDEBTEDNESS to God was thoroughly and eternally CANCELED. God did not nail the Ten Commandments to the cross; only my indebtedness due to my sin and continued inability to keep the commandments (Law).
Does this mean I am no longer responsible to obey the Law? Not at all. I am now actually ABLE to obey the Law through submission to Him because He now lives within me through the indwelling Holy Spirit. However, at the same time, I do NOT attempt to obey the Law (Ten Commandments) to GAIN salvation, since I already HAVE salvation. I also do not attempt to obey the Law to KEEP my salvation, since I cannot lose my salvation according to the Scriptures. Here, you and I would disagree, I'm sure, because of your beliefs.
I'm not supposed to kill, steal, lie, cheat, or anything else that breaks God's moral code. The truth though is that even if I DID break one or more of them, my salvation is not lost because of it, no more than King David lost his salvation when he committed adultery, then lied, and eventually committed murder to cover the first sin. This though does NOT mean that we should live licentiously either, simply because it brings dishonor to God. Moreover, Jesus expanded the fact that we "kill" when we hate our brother. We commit "adultery" in our hearts when we lust after someone. To God, the INTENT is just as wrong as the physical action. Who can stand up under that type of scrutiny? No one (except Jesus).
The question of whether or not Christians are obligated to obey the Sabbath command is another question entirely.
First, there is nothing in the Bible that specifically states that God created the Sabbath observance in the Garden of Eden. In fact, the command itself does not exist until AFTER the children of Israel left Egypt under Moses' lead.
Unlike other laws given by God to the Israelites (through Moses), the Sabbath command is clearly a covenant between the nation of Israel and God Himself, much like the covenant of circumcision. Today, there is no religious reason (though orthodox Jews would disagree) for a man to be circumcised. That covenant was between an Israelite and God WITHIN the nation of Israel. The Sabbath covenant was actually given by God to the Israelites as a sort of reminder of where they came from and how God delivered them.
Exodus 31:16-17 tells us – quite clearly – that the Sabbath command was given specifically for the nation of Israel. "'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed." See also Deuteronomy 5:15.
Of course, numerous groups believe (erroneously, in my opinion) that the Church is the "new" Israel and all blessings have been transferred to the Church after Israel's rejection of Jesus. The judgment of that nation took place in A.D. 70 when Roman armies sacked Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed as well. This belief (that the Church replaced Israel) is called "Replacement Theology," yet I do not find that in Scripture at all. In fact, Paul is clear that Israel – as a nation – will be saved at some point in the future (Romans 9-11).
We need to understand the there were MANY laws given to the nation of Israel that were specific to that nation. In fact, aside from the Ten Commandments, there are really a total of 613 laws that the nation of Israel was expected to observe. [1] Some were solely for the Levites or the priests, while others were for the average Israelite.
The Ten Commandments represent God's moral code, yet of those ten, the Sabbath command was the only one that was clearly and specifically GIVEN to the nation of Israel as a covenant. The others, such as not killing, not stealing, not lying, not committing adultery, or avoiding idolatry were commands that represent God's moral code for those living on this earth. Many nations have laws similar to these and of the many laws within the United States, many of the Ten Commandments were built into those laws.
The Sabbath command however, is a law that was given to the nation of Israel for them to observe as a reminder of their special covenant with God.
"God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:32–35)." [2]
If you are going to observe the Sabbath Sue, then the penalty for breaking it is death. You cannot have one without the other – sorry. Why don't your church leaders mete out death to people who break the Sabbath covenant? Because it is against the law to murder in the United States, that's why. But isn't God's Law HIGHER than man's? It sure is, so again, why don't your leaders kill those who break the Sabbath? Why are they legalistic in obeying the Sabbath, but not as legalistic when it comes to meting out punishment for failure to obey it?
In the New Testament, Paul is also very clear regarding the Sabbath covenant. He states, "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ," (Colossians 2:16-17). You – and all Seventh-day Adventists – are judging me and other Christians like me based on my biblical choice to not observe the Sabbath as being on Saturday. According to Paul, you have no right to do that, yet your persist. I have been told that I am going to hell because I do not observe the Sabbath. That's not what the Bible teaches.
He makes a similar point in Romans: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord" (Romans 14:5–6a).
Some believe (and you might be one) that Constantine allegedly changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday (A.D. 321). The problem is that the book of Acts refers to Christians meeting on "the first day of the week" regularly (cf. Acts 20:7; see also 1 Corinthians 16:2). Historically, the early Church met for worship on Sunday (the first day of the week), not Saturday.
In the final analysis, authentic Christians are to worship God fully EVERY day. Every day, we are to submit our lives to Him that He might work in and through us for His good pleasure and His glory. Yet, we often get together for FELLOWSHIP and corporate worship once or twice weekly. The rest of the week, I should STILL be worshiping God with my life, my actions, and my thoughts. My entire life should be fully dedicated to God, moment by moment.
The Sabbath command was given to Israel, not the Church and that is very clear from Scripture.
[1] http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm
[2] http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html-
While I don't claim to be a Bible scholar I do know a few things. How do you explain the following verse which mentions "man" as in "mankind". Mark 2:
27 And he (Jesus) said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Notice it didn't say "Jew" or "Israelite".
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
You do know that when strangers were within the camp of the Israelites they also observed the sabbath. And not only visitor's but the animals too.
Exodus 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy "stranger" that is "within thy gates":
The stranger was not a "Israelite" so why did he need to observe
the sabbath? What obligation was the stranger under?
The answer in is the following verse:
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed (made it holy) it.
The sabbath was "blessed" and made "holy" before there was ever a "Jew / Israelite". Proof as follows:
Genesis 2: 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: (made it holy) because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. By observing the sabbath you acknowledge that he is the "creator" God. You can observe your birthday on any day you choose but you can't change your birth certificate. The creation of our world will always be linked to a certain day of the week. And holiness and blessing are only given to that day. So, why observe any other? And,….if you only got your information from the Bible itself and not the world, which day would you observe?
You said that the reason the Israelites observed the Sabbath is to remember slavery. The commandment for Sabbath observance specifically says why and that is because of "creation". Again….Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed (made it holy) it. Passover is the observance of the slavery of the Israelites.
And you reference to Collisions 2: 16 talks about Sabbath "days" and and not "day". See Leviticus 23 about "sabbath days". They were specific observances. BTW, the fourth commandment never mentions Jew/Israelite.
Matthew 5: 17 Think "not" that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, "but to fulfill".
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall "teach men" (not Jew) so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This has repercussions in "heaven" itself?
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Sunday is a commandment of "men". Guess who takes the credit for it……the Catholic Church in it's Catechism.
Here's a link for more info…http://www.biblesabbath.org/confessions.html
Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. -
Sue, I'm hoping you read my long response to you pertaining to the fact that the Sabbath was essentially a covenant between God and Israel (based on Exodus 31)? I'm looking through your response and it doesn't appear that you really read all of what I said…
"Exodus 31:16-17 tells us – quite clearly – that the Sabbath command was given specifically for the nation of Israel. "'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed." See also Deuteronomy 5:15."
I did not say that the Israelites were to remember the Sabbath based on slavery. They were to remember the Sabbath because of the fact of creation AND also the fact that God released them from their bondage in Egypt.
You also have to remember that Jesus came to WHO? He came to the lost nation of Israel. He came to seek and save that which was lost, which is why He was so reluctant to minister to people OUTSIDE of the nation of Israel, though He did that on occasion. Jesus' ministry was to the house of Israel.
As I also previously mentioned Sue, if you are going to stick religiously to observing the Sabbath, then according to Paul you are obligated to observe ALL the Mosaic Law (613), not simply the ten better known laws. Moreover, according to the Mosaic Law, anyone who broke the Sabbath was to be executed. Does your sect execute people who break the Sabbath? If not, why not?
Sue, we can go round and round on this, but it's kind of pointless. You obviously staunchly believe that the Sabbath (Saturday) is to be observed by Christians today. I do not. If I am incorrect, then I'm trusting the Lord to show me that. Unfortunately, all of the arguments (even those containing Scripture references) that you have provided seem to me to be man made when it comes to forcing people to observe a particular day – Saturday – as the alleged true day to worship the Lord.
As I indicated, the passages in Acts indicate that the new believers gathered for corporate worship on the "first day of the week," which would have been Sunday, not Saturday. They endeavored to set themselves apart from their Jewish counterparts. Paul however, continued for some time to worship on the Sabbath IN the synagogues wherever he was because he felt a calling of God to evangelize Jews. This obviously changed as we move through the book of Acts, because more of his ministry focused on evangelizing and ministering to Gentiles.
I quoted a number of passages from Paul's writings – Colossians 2 and Romans 14 – that to me, prove that the Sabbath as being observed on Saturday is no longer a requirement. Like circumcision, it was given specifically as a covenant TO the nation of Israel, between that nation and God. Are you this legalistic about circumcision? Do you believe that if you have a son, he MUST be circumcised? Why? That was a covenant given specifically to the nation of Israel.
The use of the word "days" in the KJV for Colossians 2:16 likely is plural there because Paul was not necessarily referring to a plurality of Sabbaths, but grammatically, because he had mentioned a series. However, Paul could just have easily been speaking of the plurality of Sabbath days throughout the year and not as you're suggesting (since there was one Sabbath each week).
You are correct that the fourth commandment does not specifically name "Jews" or "Gentiles," but again, the entirety of the Mosaic Law was GIVEN to the nation of Israel. There is no reason why God would clarify anything, as if Gentiles also were required to keep the Sabbath if they were NOT part of the nation of Israel. The Mosaic Law was given TO Israel. There is no record of it being given to any other nation. As I've explained, the reason the Sabbath was given was as a covenant between Israel and God (Exodus 31).
Regarding the Creation account, as I previously mentioned, there is NO record at all that Adam and Eve were given the covenant of the Sabbath. In fact, Genesis 2:3 simply points out what GOD did after He finished Creation. Like circumcision, the actual Sabbath covenant did not come into play until the nation of Israel. That is clear from Scripture.
I'm definitely aware of the fact that strangers and foreigners who were part of Israel were also required to obey the Mosaic Law. However, as part of Christ's Bride, I am NOT part of Israel. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that the Church is the "new" Israel. As I previously mentioned, this is part of "Replacement Theology," which I do not believe is supported in Scripture.
IF the Sabbath (and circumcision) was given specifically to the nation of Israel (Exodus 31) and as as Christian, I am NOT part of the nation of Israel, I am under no obligation to observe either of these two covenants.
Yes, you'll recall I mentioned the role that Seventh-day Adventists believe the Roman Catholic Church played in "changing the days and seasons," which is exactly why I pointed all the way back to the book of Acts where it becomes clear that the newly born Church began worshiping corporately on "the first day of the week," which is Sunday. Saturday – the Sabbath – is the LAST day of the week. Again, it is clear from Scripture.
I also stated that EVERY day for the authentic Christian is to be a day of worship. We are to enter into an attitude of worship on a daily basis, yet once or twice per week, we gather for CORPORATE worship and fellowship with other believers.
I know that I cannot convince you, Sue. That's fine. If God wants either of us to change our opinion, He is more than capable of bringing us to that realization.
May the Lord bless you as you continue to seek and serve Him.
I was thinking that as many of the posters are Seventh-day Adventists, I would like to share with you a reminder. If you are not an Adventist and do not believe in the inspiration of Ellen White, you are free to disregard this post. 🙂
"Paul knew that the laborer for God must be wise enough to see the design of the enemy, and refuse to be misled or diverted. The conversion of souls must be the burden of his work; he must preach the word of God, but *avoid controversy.*
"'Study to show thyself approved unto God,' he wrote, 'a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.' [2 Timothy 2:15, 16.]
"The ministers of Christ today are in the same danger. Satan is constantly at work to divert the mind into wrong channels, so that the truth may lose its force upon the heart. And unless ministers and people practice the truth and are sanctified by it, they will allow speculation regarding questions of no vital importance to occupy the mind. This will lead to caviling and strife; for countless points of difference will arise." Gospel Workers, pp. 311-312I believe that in taking part in the debate going on here, we are making unwise use of our time, arguing points with people who will maintain their own opinions about us and our doctrines regardless of what we might say or do. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to change hearts and touch lives. Trying to prove ourselves to those to whom we hold no accountability is useless and detrimental to our characters. A spirit of contention is developed, and it is not to the glory of God or the honor of His name.
Live to prove yourself to God, not to mankind. Thank you for taking the time to read this. 🙂
Thanks for your thoughts, Susan.
There is a huge problem with your understanding of what constitutes actual "controversy" as outlined by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:23. He NEVER meant that salvation itself should not be discussed, scrutinized, or even debated to an extent. Paul spent his entire life after Acts 9 on spreading the gospel, which as a by-product, created controversy wherever he went! According to you then, he should have avoided many situations and episodes in his life that resulted in controversy solely because of his desire to see people come to knowledge of true salvation. Surely, you understand that the situation that developed in Ephesus was due to Paul's desire for people to be truly saved (as just one example)? Silversmith Demetrius responded to Paul's efforts to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ by attempting to create problems for Paul. He was partially successful. Satan used Demetrius to stand against Paul and the success that the Lord had in bringing people out of paganism into true salvation due to Paul's efforts. Wherever true salvation is preached there is Satan doing his best to create controversy as he attempts to pull people away from that truth and to shut that open door.
Preaching the truth in love often prompts Satan's response to that truth, which can create controversy. The New Testament (and even the Old) is filled with examples of events that occurred because people taught the truth and Satan attempted to stand against it.
I write what I write here because I want people to come to a true saving knowledge of Christ and to receive the only salvation that is available through the gospel of Jesus. I do not believe that at its heart, Seventh-day Adventism (along with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and numerous others) has or promulgates the truth regarding true, biblical salvation. I believe that works are added to the situation by these organizations and many who have responded to this article have simply proven me to be correct because of their additions to the requirement of faith (going to church only on Saturday, which translates to receiving the mark of the beast when going to church on Sunday, etc.).
It is due to the teachings of people like Ellen G. White (or Joseph Smith, or Charles Taze Russell) that gullible people become sidetracked and actually diverted AWAY from authentic salvation toward a type of "salvation" that is artificially created by man's arguments. In the end, it is no salvation at all.
Controversy for the sake of controversy is wrong. When he says we should avoid controversy, Paul is clearly referring to arguments that deal with the non-essentials of the faith as ones that should be avoided. He is NOT referring to avoiding conversations that deal with the actual essentials of the faith, with salvation being the most important of them. Had that been the case, he never would have preached the gospel! Whenever the truth is preached, Satan will create controversy. He did it in the life of Jesus. He did it in the life of Paul and he does it wherever and whenever the truth of salvation is preached.
I believe that because of the fact that every person is only one breath away from eternity, it is absolutely imperative that they KNOW what they believe about Jesus Christ and His salvation. Moreover, it is equally imperative that they know they HAVE authentic salvation. People are worth saving and to fully understand the truth of salvation is worth discussing and even worth debating. It stands to reason that controversy over truth will follow whenever the true gospel is preached because that is what Satan does.
I fully believe that because of the origins of much of White's doctrine, her connections with people like Charles Taze Russell, and the events that created her rise to fame within Seventh-day Adventism (e.g. The Great Disappointment), many of her teachings are patently false. Because they are false, that makes her a false prophet and because of it, I believe many people are being misled…including you.
No one answers to me. No one is accountable to me. However, we are all accountable to God and the most important thing we can do in this life is to embrace the full truth of the gospel of Jesus so that when we stand before Him, we will not be ashamed or condemned at having believed something erroneous about salvation.
Like Ezekiel, if I do not tell others about the truth of Jesus and His salvation, I will be held accountable before God for that failed mission. I must tell them, whether they listen or not and it is my prayer that God, through the Holy Spirit, will open people's eyes to the truth so that they will embrace that truth and become authentically saved.
My prayers are with you.
I am sorry if I have misjudged your conversations with other posters; I am sensitive even to mild conflict, so if you feel that my reminder was unneeded, I understand. 🙂 I hope it will serve as a bulwark against future controversy, though, and I thank you for having taken pains to avoid argument with others. What I had more in mind was the kind of tense, defensive discussion so many people seem to engage in over the smallest things. I agree that in spreading the gospel there will be times when we will need to address certain issues without beating around the bush.
If I have once again mistaken your meaning, be patient, but our beliefs regarding salvation are not the way you see them. I know all too well that some people believe that we base salvation on works, but this is not the case. I am no more inherently saved by keeping the Sabbath than you are condemned for doing what you honestly believe is right in worshiping on Sunday. I don't keep Sabbath in order to be saved; I keep it as an expression of love for Jesus, and respect for His law. (John 14:15)
Most of your reply to my initial post I would unashamedly repeat in my own church, as it gives solid reason to share the Word as it is. However, I think I sense some misunderstandings about us in the third to last paragraph. The Seventh-day Adventist church didn't start until some time after the Great Disappointment, when those who gave up hope had already turned away from the Advent movement (which is what William Miller began with his discoveries about Daniel's prophecies). Only a handful of believers continued to study the Bible to see where they had gone wrong. Among those were Ellen Harmon, James White, Joseph Bates, and others important to the foundation of our church. At first, Ellen was actually strongly doubted mainly because she was a woman and the Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. that the Advent people were made up of did not believe in visions from God. They rejected the idea because it was different. However, it became increasingly clear that what she was seeing was not from the Devil or contrary to the Bible.
I know there is a lot of room for misjudgment and misquotation of Mrs. White's writings, just from the fact that they were written in the mid-1800s to early 1900s. Taken out of context, it is harder to understand what she means by certain statements. When her writings are used against her, you must take what people say with a grain of salt. Replaced into context, or compared to other clarifying statements, they make perfect sense, but not alone or paraphrased into an entirely different meaning. If people want an explanation for our doctrines or actions, it would truly be best for them to simply ask us instead of being willing to believe anything others choose to repeat.
Also, I looked up her connection with Charles Taze Russell, and have not so far been able to deduce anything but that he was exposed to Advent beliefs, especially with regard to Nelson H. Barbour, who never was a Seventh-day Adventist as some imply. The ideas that they wrote about together are not even close to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs. If you could, would you please give me some links to evidence that Ellen White was in close association with Charles Russell? I would really appreciate it. 🙂 This is something I want to find out about for myself before I say any more in this particular area than I have already shared with you. Thank you for your prayers!
It is exceedingly sad that you believe as you believe. Moreover, your insincerity is clearly showing, though no doubt, you believe that you have come across as someone who really wants to know ("This is something I want to find out about for myself before I say any more in this particular area than I have already shared with you.")
Do you think I'm an idiot, Susan? Apparently…
You said, "If people want an explanation for our doctrines or actions, it would truly be best for them to simply ask us instead of being willing to believe anything others choose to repeat."
All cult members use that argument. The truth of the matter is that there are many books written by ex-SDA members. Beyond this, it is extremely EASY to obtain books written by Ellen G. White and others high up in the SDA organization that clearly explain the beliefs of SDA. I can do and have done my own research. It's a no-brainer. I have also talked with numerous SDA adherents and I've lost count how many times I've been told that I am going to hell because I worship on Sundays, or SDA is the "true" Church, etc. Every cult makes this claim.
The real tragedy is what SDA people willingly and knowingly keep from saying. The deceptive nature of SDA becomes apparent to those who can think and reason for themselves, when we understand the actual writings and testimony of White and others within SDA.
I really wish I had the time to enter into debate with you, but I don't. The information you seek is out there for anyone who truly wants to know. Unfortunately, you strike me as being sufficiently INSINCERE in your requests.
It amazes me that people like yourself spend so much time trying to prove the merits of SDA theology – what you call your "church," – and the veracity of Ellen G. White, when in point of fact, for anyone who is serious about taking on the issue, the holes in that theology become extremely evident except to folks who have been thoroughly indoctrinated and have already decided that Ellen G. White is a true prophet. According to folks like yourself, there is never anything anti-biblical about her beliefs and teachings, and in effect, the SDA cult is the true Church.
It is tragic, Susan. There is actually LITTLE room for misjudgment and misquotation of White's writings. They speak for themselves and the ramifications of her teachings are in stark contrast to the truth of Scripture at many points. Moreover, there is very good evidence that she was a plagiarist.
It appears as though you are more interested in defending White than actually seeking truth. I am interested in pointing out the truth about Seventh-day Adventism and other cults.
To that end, this is only one page that points out truth regarding what Ellen G. White taught and official positions of the SDA cult:
http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/sda_facts.htmlThe above page is excellent for its presentation on the facts regarding what SDAs believe (and I'm talking about the organization itself) about
– Doctrine of Christ
– Doctrine of Salvation
– False Prophecies
– Consulting the Deadand more.
If you are truly interested in determining the truth Susan, then I would suggest that you avail yourself of the above information.
I want to thank you for your comments, but we can go no further unless/until you are willing/able to see the fallacies within SDA. Until the Lord opens your eyes, that won't be happening and because of that, any discussion we might enter into here would be a massive waste of my time.
My prayers are for your eyes to be open to the truth. Only God can make that happen. We could discuss/debate for eons and unless you are willing to see the truth by God's grace, all we will be doing is discussing/debating. I won't fall into that trap of "endless controversies." The truth is there. Are you willing to see it?
Sorry about my spelling on my post on May 7th. I even mis spelled Jesus. The point I was trying to make was that, Paul was trying to keep the Galatians from going back under the law, after having been saved by grace. I think many christians back then were trying to mix grace with the law. Playing both sides of the fence. Playing it safe. Many in the early church wanted the Christians to be under the old law too. doesn't that make Christs death for nothing? Paul made it clear that the New Christians don't need to keep the law. Acts chapter 15 makes is real clear. Why would we think that we need to keep the law. Doesn't Paul say that whoremongers, liars, thieves, murderers, homosexuals, etc shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Why doesn't mention the Sabbath? You can keep the ten commandments and still be far from salvation. Jesus said if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart you commit adultry, or if you hate a man you are a murderer. We need the grace of God, and be led by the Holy Spirit. The law was given to show us our need for a savior, a schoomaster to lead us to Christ. Many Christians don't drink, smoke, commit adultry, but they can be deceived, if they get hung up on a couple verses. A good test is, What do others say about you? Are you guilty of loving others more than yourself? Do you judge others? I know that we are persecuted for our beliefs, but we should have fruit in our lives. I guess what I'm trying to say is our love showing?
Gary R
With love to you all. Acts 15: 5, 10-11, 28-29. A sect of the Pharisee believed That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Peter said, "Now therefore why temp ye God, to put a yoke up the neck of the dicciples, which niether our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace fo the Lord Jeshus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 28 For it seem good to hte Holy Ghost, and to us , to lay upon you no other burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, he shall do well.
Gal 5:3-4 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto ;you, whosoever of you ar justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then bretheren, we are not childeren of the bondwoman, but of the free.
See Romans 7:1-6 also about dead to the law by the body of Christ.
Read all of Galatians several times, out loud. Speak the word to yourself as Paul is stern with the Galatians. Especially chapter 3.
We obey the law for our love for Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost. We could not do it before Christ, by keeping the Law. Many of the Jews wanted to kill Paul for teaching Christ, saved by faith and grace. I pray you all come to know the real knowledge of the truth, and saving faith and grace of Jesus Christ. If you love your wife, you will be good to her, if you love your neighbor, you won't steal from him. If you ;love Jesus, you will seek to please him. Let's love God first with all our heart and love our neighbor as ourselves, and we fulfill the whole law. With Love, Gary R-
I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say, Gary as your comments can be taken several ways.
Anyone can quote Scripture and many do, but that doesn't prove much.
Yes, Paul was very stern with the Galatians because they were considering becoming circumcised and there was absolutely no need for it. He was careful to remind them that if they put themselves deliberately UNDER one aspect of the law (circumcision) they would be obligated to follow ALL of it.
Seventh-day adventist church is the only true church. We are bound to obey the precepts of God (all 10 commandments, health laws). The book of daniel & revelation gave a specific time the true followers of God will be reveald at the later days. The emerging of the advent movement fit this prophecy. Eventhough, many churches arose from this movement, the bible gave an important clue to identify the true group–they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of jesus. (spirit of prophecy) The SDA truely fit all these things.
To learn more of the adventist church and also the mark &number (666) of the beast, contact any local adventist congregation.
May YHWH bless you for responding
PS: contact them to learn why there are many churches and religion.-
Hi Augustin,
I'm not going to take the time to debate you, but surely you are aware of how many would disagree with your assessments regarding SDA being the "only true church."
Besides White's alleged plagiarism, her association with Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower), there are great many problems with the doctrines taught within the SDA group when compared with orthodox Christianity.
It always amazes me when a group steps up to announce that they are the actual true church. Doesn't matter whether it's Mormonism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the SDA or someone else entirely, denominations are one thing. Often people branch off into one denomination or another not over major doctrinal issues, but normally over issues of worship, or baptism, or something else. Anyone outside of orthodoxy is not considered a denomination, but a cult.
Whether Walter Martin believed SDA to be a cult, there are a good many arguments in favor of applying that label to your group unfortunately.
A plethora of books have been written denouncing White's doctrinal viewpoints, none of which I have time or space to go into here. I wish you would do your own independent research to see what you come up with and by that I don't mean simply reading what others within your group say about those who have written and/or spoken against it. I'm talking about reading the books of those who disagree with your view based on their understanding of the Bible and biblical truth.
In the end, if you believe fully that everyone except Seventh-Day Adventists are wrong, then there is nothing that can be stated to change your viewpoint. The absurdity of such a position speaks for itself. Again, denominational differences are one thing, but because someone is a Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc., does not mean that they are not Christian. It often merely means that there is a difference in understanding the various aspects of Christianity in the non-essentials.
No one would say (that I'm aware) that the Baptists represent the true Church. Which denomination of Baptist, GARBC, American Baptist, Fundamental Baptist, Independent Baptist, or what? These differences exist largely due to the fact that some believe that a local church should be relatively autonomous and not governed by an association or body.
The one thing that makes a Christian an authentic Christian or not is their faith in Jesus Christ.
You base at least part of your salvation on following the Ten Commandments, but even there you're not getting it right. There are 613 total laws, not simply ten. If you are going to follow any portion of the law, then as Paul tells the Galatians, you are required to follow all of it. While many of the 613 laws were for the priests/Levites specifically, there are plenty leftover that the average individual was required to follow. You have chosen the ten mains one and have ignored the other 603. You can't do that.
This is exactly why the ENTIRETY of the law was summed up in two commandments; love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.
I pray you find the truth one day. I pray He opens your eyes. I pray you learn the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
When it all comes down to it (and you said it yourelf), you wind up working FOR your salvation. You cannot work for something that is fully free. Yes, we are obligated to live a life of holiness AFTER we become saved, but failing to do so does not somehow cancel my salvation.
I'm sorry you believe your works are part of the process when God says they are filthy rags.
Matt 7:21; James 2:14…John 6:53; Matt 26:17-28…Matt 5:17; Luke 4:16; John 13:15; Acts 17:2… and again Matt 7:21
If we aren't actually supposed to follow God's word then I don't really see the point in reading the Bible (or for that matter even having a Bible). In fact, if all we have to do is just 'believe' and we're saved then I might as well off myself now and go on to heaven.
By the way, I've never actually heard of an 'orthodox-Christian church' that says they don't keep the 10 commandments…not sure how many people would stay. Which is ironic. Seems to me though, that 'orthodox Christianity' has little to do with the Bible and more to do with good marketing schemes.
As for SDA, I don't know much about it, but I do think that it seems a bit odd to keep some of the laws the way it was kept in the New Testament, yet to then keep some of the laws way it was kept in the Old Testament. Same with Jehovah Witnesses. Although I'd think if you follow Jehovah and don't believe in Christ as God then you would just follow Jehovah's laws? But again, I don't know much about SDA or the Witnesses.
Anywho. Just some thoughts.
The problem though is when it comes to following any of these laws FOR salvation, which seems to be the case for Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-day Adventists, and others.
Salvation is a free gift. We can do nothing to earn it. Many to most would agree with that statement, but then they would also say that salvation can be lost, which in my mind is the antithesis of what Scripture teaches.
I'm supposed to live my life for His glory. I don't always do that and I will not know whether I did or didn't until I stand before Him. This does NOT mean that my salvation is in question though. It simply means any rewards that might have been earned (yes, earned) are in question.
Orthodoxy means believing the five fundamentals of the faith essentially:
1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7;
Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4;
2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20).When it comes to Christianity, Jesus taught that God's moral law should be upheld and He provided many practical examples of what that looks like (e.g. loving your neighbor, loving God above all things, etc.).
I disagree. The problem isn't following God's laws
FOR salvation. It's making a decision to turn ones back on God's laws and do what our sinful nature desires with the false assumption that his grace will then cover us. IMO a person that asks for salvation is granted the gift when they confess thier sins and accepts Christ as thier Lord and Savor. Only God knows a persons heart but I would suggest that a person who does that act knowing full well they intent not to follow what God has laid out will have to explain thier actions. IMO this person has not truly excepted Christ as thier savor and/or confessed all sins. We know there has to be exceptions because thousands upon thousands have lived on our planet never hearing of Religion or they lived what they were
Taught with conviction. IMO God will not hold us accountable for something we didn't know or understand because he is a just and forgiving God but I'm not sure how he will handle those that learn truth and reject it. Puts God in a tough spot. As a parent when a child does a wrong unknowingly vs an outright insubordination we tend to judge accordingly. God bless all those seeking the truth and help us to remember that Christ is the answer not any one organization. -
The apostle Paul would disagree with you on several fronts, all of which he explains in Romans among other epistles. Romans 1 explains that no one is without excuse. No one will be able to stand before God and say, "I didn't know!" It's not possible. What didn't we know? We KNOW that God exists and that there is a moral law. Those who never heard the Word preached to them are judged under the Law. Those who heard the Word and rejected it are judged under the Law. Those who hear the Word and RECEIVE it are judged under GRACE.
Romans 3:23 tells us that ALL have sinned and ALL have fallen short. That includes you, me, and every other person who has ever lived. The only exception that MIGHT exist is God's deference toward babies who if they die as babies are incapable of knowing right from wrong, even though they still possess the sin nature.
You have heard the gospel. Have you received it? If so – according to Romans 10:9-10, you are saved. It is BECAUSE you are saved that you WANT to live a life that pleases Him, though you will still fail from time to time. We never reach the point of sinless perfection in this life.
I agree that a person who says a "sinner's prayer" as it were, but decides he will live as he pleases and ignore God's moral law, does not have true salvation. They are kidding themselves.
Living with conviction does not impress God, unless we are living the TRUTH with conviction. Satan lives with conviction as do all of his minions, yet they will never be saved. Atheists die every day who have spent their lives living by their convictions. It won't save them in the end.
Why did God save you? Why did God save me? Whenever God saves ANYONE, it is for ONE purpose and one purpose only: to glorify Himself. That's it in a nutshell. We like to think that we are extremely important and certainly to some extent we are but only because we were made in His image. Yet, God will not allow anyone into heaven who has never received Jesus as Savior/Lord.
"As a parent when a child does a wrong unknowingly vs an outright insubordination we tend to judge accordingly." Yes, but there is still some sort of judgment.
"God bless all those seeking the truth and help us to remember that Christ is the answer not any one organization." Absolutely, but unfortunately, some organizations plainly teach error and should be avoided.
I'm glad we have found common ground.
"Absolutely, but unfortunately, some organizations plainly teach error and should be avoided."
Unless you can share one organization that is 100% right on everything I believe there is no such thing on this planet. So as you said it's best to avoid the 90% or more organized religions that "plainly teach error" and\or ignore something so blatant as what day is Sabbath. If a group can't figure out something so simple and has to come up with excuse after excuse on why they honor the wrong day then it's hard to believe they are right on some more challenging topics. Let's as you said go to a place of rest and look deep within our heart and ask which group of people is honoring the most basic fundamental principles? Those in your so called "cults"that try to obey the Ten Commandents or the majority that try to obey 9 and explain away the other 1?
Kind of simple really God ask us to come visit with him at a certain date and time each week. We decide it doesn't work for us and show up at another time. Who does that? Do we show up for a wedding a day late? Do we go to the airport a day late and expect to catch a flight. Go to see our favorite ball team at a time or day that fits our schedule other then the scheduled match? No.
God says eat of any tree but this one and we justify we know best and do it anyway. God says keep this day Holy and we justify we know best and disobey anyway.
Maybe the church I attend is wrong on some issues thats up for debate but I know they are right on this simple one and I'm "convicted" by it.
God bless you as you continue to spread his word and continue searching for Gods instructions in your life.
I said "some" but you for some reason think I MEANT 90%. It doesn't equate.
Whether you are a Seventh-day Adventist or not, you obviously believe that worshiping God on the Sabbath is a requirement. I would fully disagree with you because Paul clarifies this for us when he states that one person chooses one day to honor the Lord while another person chooses another day. Still someone else sees every day as the "Lord's" day (cf. Romans 14:5). I'm quite sure you're familiar with that and I think I already know what your response to that would be.
Jeff, I'm pretty sure we do not agree on the Sabbath issue. You could just as easily "observe" the Sabbath (Saturday) with your heart not in it and all you've done is something outward. Someone else can worship God on another day with their heart completely in it. Yet, your position is that they would not truly be honoring God because it's not actually the Sabbath.
Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and His disciples "worked" on the Sabbath. He did not rebuke them, but the religious leaders.
Debating is fruitless, Jeff. We could go back and forth for eons and prove nothing. You're already convinced in your mind as I am in mine.
You said, "Kind of simple really God ask us to come visit with him at a certain date and time each week."
Jeff, I commune with God EVERY day. I worship Him every day. I fellowship with other believers on Sunday.
I'm sure you've never killed anyone. Yet, have you ever been angry enough with someone to want them dead? Have you ever lusted after a woman in your heart? If you've done these things, you have murdered or committed adultery. Just because you dutifully choose one day – Saturday – to worship does not mean you are following His will. It may very well mean that you are being thoroughly legalistic. This is what happens when people focus on the Law.
You keep connecting the legalism of keeping the sabbath, even if a person claims to enjoy keeping the sabbath as it is what he/she gets out of understanding the bible. SDA's don't believe keeping sabbath is what saves them. And one should not get condemned for not keeping one. Yes, the ten commendaments is summed up into love your God and love others, and SDA's believe keeping the sabbath is one way to show that we love God, and it is not done out of someone forcing us that we must do it, but (for a true sabbath keeper) it is one way to enjoy salvation we've received already by the grace of Jesus. All true SDA's believe that faith alone can save oneself, but why should it be a reason to be called a cult, if one insists the importance of sabbath, which existed before the time of moses, before the nation of Israel, but from the very 7th day of God's creation. It's just like you not commiting adultery and what not, and you said you've lusted over something…well so have all SDA's-and on every sabbath we think or do things that are "sinful". Does that mean we are breaking the commendment..yes…however, we are saved by faith and knowing that it gives us one more reason to be thankful for the sabbath for us to enjoy. (not because our leaders told us not keeping saturday is a sin like you said) While it is not right for SDA's to condemn others, it is not right to condemn SDA's for trying to live in an obidence in God.
You've mentioned how SDA's interpret romans 14:5 but overall message strikes your hard…Well for the most SDA's the overall message of the bible clearly tells us the sabbath is the right day of worship and rest, and while you can come up with reason why one might worship on a different day, biblically, we do not pull out our saturday worship anywhere other than the bible. (BTW i know alot of early christians did keep sunday as you mentioned and strongly denied sabbath but there is absolutly no biblical source for their action other that political reasons)
I understand many non-sda's see us as a legalistic group of people, that like to condemn other christians, but they don't represent true characteristics of our church. If you must consider a church a cult, then you must argue from our doctrines, not from some of the member's tendensies and falso witnessing. I beliefe thare are plenty of non christians within SDA church…I also know plenty of presbyterian scholars who insist the ten commandment still stands and sunday is the rightful day of worship. I also know plenty of baptists that believe baptism without full submergion means condemnation. and I also know others who claims only one's who speak in tongues are saved…you get my drift. If you read your replies here, most of the SDA's are here to defend their individual faith, and correct whatever misunderstanding you might have with them, but not to say non-SDA's will go to hell or something. I cannot say much abot mormons and JW's as I did not study their doctrines personally, but since you said we are in common ground with them, i can say that SDA's believe that peopel outside of our church are saved as well, of course many from the "main stream chruch" and we can join them if they are willing to come on Saturday (our church rent a lutheran church on saturday, and the lutheran paster has given us sermon many times-and we are legit mainstream sda's anot some far off branch) or their sunday church, but we'll keep our day "holy" becuase we are convinced that's what Jesus would do…you interpret it as legalism, we see it as health life style in rememberance of God the creator. (BTW, you say some of our comments were legalistic, well so were some of your replys, and they were very "technical" and "subjective"-I am sure christians read the same bible but sometimes don't see what others see-in the end it's the personal choice of accepting Jesus as your savior, not which group you belong to)
ps-i am not sure what you mean by we preach salvation can be lost? Are you saying if someone is once saved, then he is forever saved no matter what he does after? If so i disagree simply looking at the live of Judah or Saul. i've seen many people that turned away from God who were true believers at one point by Satan…he can work hard to make us throw away salvation, he even tempted Jesus!!!-
Look, we could debate this until we both run out of breath and solve nothing. I'm not interested in debating as it really serves no purpose.
Steve Wohlberg and Doug Batchelor both believe that if a person does not worship on Saturday, they've lost their salvation (if they ever had it). They believe that one of the popes was the antichrist and changed the "times and seasons" by changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
The problem with this view is myriad and as I've stated there is ample evidence to more than suggest that the early Christians worshiped on Sunday, not Saturday.
It would be like saying that I must read the Bible every day from 6am to 7am or I am not fulfilling my obligation to know God through His Word. While that is not a law written in stone, the reality is, is that anything we do can become legalistic.
If you want to worship on Saturday, that's completely up to you, but to believe that as a Christian, it is law that you must obey is ridiculous. While Christians are obligated to follow the moral law of God, Paul makes it clear that any day we set aside for worship is fine. As I mentioned, there is a good amount of evidence to support the idea that early Christians worshiped on Sunday, not Saturday.
You need to do what you believe in your heart you should do. I hope you are also eating a Kosher diet as well and it goes without saying that if you are male, you were circumcised for religious reasons.
Be that as it may, if you firmly believe that salvation is by grace alone, then the so-called requirement to worship on Saturday is moot.
Regarding your other charge that people who are saved can live anyway they want to live and remain saved is ridiculous. It's an argument often used by people who do not believe that salvation is eternal. It denies the power of God in the individual's life.
People who SAY they are Christian, yet live however they want to live are in all likelihood NOT Christians at all. There are MANY individuals who profess to be Christians. Moreover, the visible church is FILLED with TARES according to Jesus' own words. These TARES move along the same lines as the WHEAT and tend to look and even sound like Christians, yet they are not and never will be.
Eternal salvation is eternally secure. It's that simple. You are looking at it solely from a human perspective, completely ignoring God's roll in the salvation process.
You say you have seen "many people that turned away from God who were true believers at one point by Satan" and my question to you is how do you KNOW they were Christians? You were able to see their heart? Of course not. You judged their Christianity by appearances only as neither you nor I are able to see their heart. How do you know they were not TARES? That statement you made is absolutely ridiculous.
The only people who are authentic Christians are those who remain so until the end. All others are wannabes, fakers, or TARES. You cannot be born again one moment, then unborn again the next. You cannot be sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption one day and then unsealed the next. Those who remain until the end are DESTINED to do so because Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He will get us through.
Paul and others often encouraged others to press on so as not to fall short. The reason being is that neither Paul or the other writers of the NT knew who was and who was not authentically saved either. They had to go by externals, yet the only sure way of someone ELSE knowing that someone is saved is by watching them complete the journey without falling away.
John also talks about those who went out from them, but were not part of them. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us," (1 John 2:19; emphasis added). John is being wonderfully clear here. Only authentic Christians WILL continue. Those who are not will wander away. It's a very simple concept. Surely you can understand it?
Authentic Christians keep moving onward. Yes, they slip and backtrack at times, but they eventually get back up, confess their sin and move on. The idea that you or anyone else can determine who is and who is not an authentic Christian is laughable. You do not have that ability and the fact that you think you do speaks to the level of pride in your life.
If we're compelled to obey the ten commandments out of love and conviction, wouldn't we be compelled to obey all of them? What makes Saturday/Sunday the sole exception?
I mean, are there genuine hardships people run into for worshiping on Saturday as opposed to Sunday? Or are there nine other commandments out of the ten, which other denominations also consider irrelevant?
And don't forget: The 10 commandments were written in stone and handed down by God himself ("set in stone", as the saying goes), whereas the other 600 or so laws were not.
The imagery is pretty powerful.
Hi John,
First of all, there were actually 613 laws that Moses gave to the people of Israel. While many were only for the tribe of Levi, the rest were for ALL Israel. Are you following ALL those laws, or just the "ten"? You seem to want to pick and choose, saying that since God "wrote" the Ten Commandments Himself, those are the only ones we need to follow. This would ostensibly mean that the others were "not that important." This is asinine and wrong.
Also, please bear in mind that ALL of the laws – including the Ten Commandments – were given to the nation of Israel. The Church of Jesus is under a different set of rules which are summed up in loving the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself. If you study the Ten Commandments, you see WHY they are essentially summed up in the two laws I've just mentioned.
As opposed to living in and under the Old Testament times, the Church lives under the umbrella of love. Paul makes it clear that worshiping the Lord on a particular day is up to the individual Christian. One might worship on Sunday, while others might consider every day a day of worship (cf. Romans 14:5).
If I am truly a slave of Jesus (which I am), then how is it I can view days DIFFERENTLY? Aren't I obligated to view every day as a day in which I fully worship the Lord? I think so.
There is also ample evidence that the early Christians actually worshiped on the first day of the week (Sunday) because they wanted to separate themselves from Judaism. However, people like Paul – a Pharisee – would still go to the synagogue on Saturdays.
Now, if you want to be legalistic about it, then not only should you worship on a Saturday, but you should also be circumcised, and follow all the dietary laws of Judaism. Paul speaks to this problem in his letter to the Galatian believers.
I know I'm not going to convince you of anything, John. Your points have been answered well by many others and if you've read them and are still not convinced, then it is obvious, you are not even open to considering any other viewpoints.
Look, Seventh-day Adventism was essentially started by a woman. Paul clearly stated that he does not allow a women to teach a man (cf. 1 Timothy 2:12). Why? He tells us why. "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."
In effect then, you are part of a system that began due to the teachings of a woman. By the way, Paul is NOT saying that women are second class citizens. He simply defined their role in the church.
It is amazing to me how people pick and choose. While you are so focused on which day to worship, you fail to recognize that your sect was started by a woman and Paul says that because of the deliberateness of Eve's sin, they lost their chance to be a leader. Unfortunately, many women spend their entire lives trying to regain what they lost.
There are many problem areas within Seventh-day Adventism. While I realize that some do not hold White's visionary teachings, the reality is that many do. There are any number of things wrong with that White has taught and it is tragic that so many people place her such high esteem.
The entire reason SDAs worship on Saturday as opposed to Sunday is wrong, in my opinion.
Groups are not saved. Individuals are saved. What are they saved from? Was Jesus named Jesus because He would save His people from their sins? What is sin? If I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, He will save me from something. What is that something? The wages of sin, right? Does He take sinning Christians home to heaven? Does Jesus only deliver from the guilt and condemnation of sin or does He also deliver from its insidious power? My Jesus saves me completely and resting on the Sabbath every week from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday in harmony with the law in the stone is so refreshing, so restoring. It is a taste of heaven. It teaches me to rest from all the works of my flesh throughout the whole week even as I rest from unnecessary physical labor on the Sabbath. When I see Jesus face to face, I will be so grateful that He fulfilled His new covenant promise in my life–that He wrote His law in my heart. Yes, I do believe that I could lose my salvation from sin if I looked at Jesus and said, "Thanks for dying for me but you know what, I don't want your law in my heart. I'd rather not have Your Spirit living in me enabling me to obey all ten of Your sacred commandments. I rather like all my sins. I prefer my own way. And so I pluck His law from my heart and stomp all over it." I encourage you to stop fighting against the Sabbath, stop fighting against what you do not understand. Experience the Sabbath rest for yourself. Obeying God's law will never earn your salvation. Salvation is a free gift in Christ. However, choosing to continue to "not remember" what God has said to remember is evidence that you have not received salvation from your sins.
Andrea, there is no argument you can present that I've not heard and I'm sure there is no argument I can present to you that you have not heard.
You honestly believe resting on the Sabbath is a "taste of heaven?" Come on, get real please. I can get a taste of heaven by walking through the beautiful woods behind my house that the Lord created. I can gain a sense of His majesty by appreciating many aspects of His Creation.
If we are going to compare resting on the Sabbath, then all we're doing is pointing to our pride.
Your viewpoint is sadly very archaic and legalistic, I'm afraid. The entirety of Galatians was written because there were some who were depending upon the Law to save them. You would deny that the Law saves you. You would say you are simply being obedient. That's fine, but unfortunately, because you more than imply that salvation is FOUND within obedience to the Law, then you experience the same difficulties as those to whom the apostle Paul wrote.
The Law He wrote on your heart has nothing to do with worshiping on a particular day. I'm also very sorry you believe you can lose your salvation. That speaks more about how you view God than anything else.
Salvation is ETERNAL. Once you receive salvation, you are BORN AGAIN (cf. John 3). To LOSE salvation would then mean that you somehow would become UNborn again. How is that possible? Moreover, since we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit (until the day of redemption), you are also saying that YOU are stronger than God and can break that seal.
I'm sorry for you. It is your fear of failing and sinning that motivates you, not love you may think you have for God. It is interesting to note that historically, Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists are not that far apart and there is good reason for that. Founders of SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses had many common allies.
The larger problem of course is that you see a failure to worship on Saturday as a major sin. While you are focusing on that one, you are very likely losing sight of any and all other sins in your life. In other words, your legalism sets boundaries and you physically remain within them. Unfortunately, Satan is capable of easily moving beyond those boundaries to tempt us in ways that we are not even aware of, like lust for example.
Jesus said that while the Law punished adulterers, those who even looked at another person with lust in their eyes was guilty of committing adultery, even though they did not join the object of their lust in a physical relationship. He further pointed out that those who WISH another was dead is considered guilty (in God's eyes) of actually committing murder even though they may never have harmed that person.
Do you see the point? You are stuck in the actual, physical law, but the Law of Moses was NEVER capable of changing man's heart. You say you are glad that God placed your Law in your heart. He didn't. All you have done is determined to follow the letter of the physical Law. For you then, if you fail to worship on Saturday through a decision to no longer do so, it is tantamount to rebelling and rejecting Jesus. For you, this means a loss of salvation. It is because of your errant belief that you fail to see that it is for freedom you have been set free. Certainly, this is not a license to sin, but you have simply accepted what your leaders have said; that failing to worship on Saturday is sin.
You are also accusing me of not ever having received salvation and this is based on your faulty reasoning regarding what constitutes sin. You are in essence judging me; a sin of which you need to confess.
There is nothing sacred about worshiping on Saturday and in fact, there is ample evidence that the early Christians worshiped on Sunday, to avoid problems with Jewish members of the community and to separate themselves physically from Judaism. While I realize that you do not believe this, your disbelief does not negate that truth. Interestingly enough, worshiping on Saturday, Sunday, or another day was not something that any of the apostles or writers of the NT spent any time on. The only real reference to it is from Paul who said, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind," (Romans 14:5). I am aware of how many SDAs interpret that statement, but the overall meaning is difficult to ignore. Paul is simply saying that if you believe it is best to worship on a Saturday, then do so. If I choose another day, then that is fine as well.
Unfortunately, what many SDAs have done is made a hard and fast rule about it, so that it makes it impossible for people who worship on any other day to actually be saved. That is not only tragic and wrong, but it is fully judgmental based on faulty exegesis of Scripture.
I'm really sorry you see things as you do. There's probably no need to continue this since neither of us will be moved. My only suggestion to you would be to do your own research. Read the Bible carefully and then study the history and grammar. Check out some commentaries as well from people who have studied subjects like this. In fact, I would also suggest that you read books by people who hold opposing views.
Thanks for writing.
As the Sabbath was observed on a lunar calendar, surely it would not have been a specific Saturday or Sunday anyway? Also, as the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons have changed/added extra-Biblical doctrines, beliefs and tales – I am not very well versed in the SDAs – it would have to be fairly obvious that they are not Christians. The tales invented by Joseph Smith are merely the product of a pubescent fantasy, and to suggest that God is just one of many, many gods running their own planets is outrageous. Great blog Dr Fred!
I've seen a lot of good videos on youtube with good information about occult, health and overall knowledge of the worlds corruption of society. Only thing is alot of these videos saying they are 'Christian" are really SDA and they never tell you up front. I feel it's very deceptive as only a vigilant and discerning follower of Jesus Christ can see where their views stem from. I've been fooled on many occasions where I agree with most of the things concerning what they say scriptually but then they go in the whole Law and EGW doctrines. The biggest concerning is how they believe someone can lose their salavation when they have geuniunely accept Jesus as their Lord and savior. Also the ideal of Jesus being an Angel or appearing as Angel is strange as well. I have no problem with people worshipping on Saturday as we all can agree it is the Sabbath day but when they condemn people for worshipping any other day then your really out of touch with reality. I say worship God at all times!
I'm just commenting because I think it's funny that all, if not most, the comments were made by SDA's. It made me laugh
Yeah, it is a bit ironic.
why did you decide to blog about this? Are you religious? or belong to/used to belong to any of the aforementioned denominations?
Am I religious? I am a Christian, which means I am in relationship with Jesus, so no, I am not religious. I am a Christian.
Why did I write about it? I explained that in the post.
No, I have never belonged to any cult, by God's grace.
Well, I'm not here to 'dog you out' on your blog or even to get angry in the way you expressed your opinion. I respect your passion, and can even agree that some members of the groups listed above can be extremely…"focused" and even close-minded to the thought that anyone outside of their religious denomination could be saved. In one of my earlier comments I wrote that I thought it was funny that most of your comments came from those who are SDA. I found it particularly ironic because I was raised in the Adventist church, have been baptized into the church, and now find myself commenting as well.
You posted "can you actually stop attending that group, leave it for a mainline, orthodox denomination and STILL believe that you are saved?" As an Adventist I believe that this is very possible not next to IMpossible. There is an ongoing joke (that I find hilarious) that when we make it to the kingdom, Christians will huddle together and told to be quiet. When asked why they must stop rejoicing someone points and responds that 'the Adventists are over and they think they're the only one's here"…yea you might not find that as entertaining as I did….but i think it gets my point across. you also wrote "It is through my association with Jesus Christ that I have salvation". Many Adventist will agree with you. When the thief died on the cross he wasn't Adventist. He asked for forgiveness and sincerely accepted Christ for who he was THATS why he was saved not because he didn't eat pork, believed in EGW, or even worshiped on Saturday. i believe that Following the Bible and accepting Christ are the ways to eternal life not which church you've been associated with. i have close friends who are both Morman and JW. They believe as I do. Especially when I started college, but even before, I attended "Sunday church" and found them uplifting with fun genuine people who I really enjoyed being around because of the zeal they had for Jesus. I cannot believe my comment is this long but I just wanted you to know that while there are people who believe and act as you stated above, we're not all like that. Especially in times such as this when it's more important than ever to band together. -
Here is the problem I have with cults in general – and you specifically mention Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons as groups with people who believe as you do regarding salvation. The largest difficulty is the DEFINITION of who Jesus is from these groups. If I view their theology, I cannot help but come away with a DIFFERENT Jesus. For instance, in both Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus is not God, the Son. He is "a" god. This is not what Scriptures teach, in my view. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was God, is God, and will always be God. As God the Son, He chose to add humanity to Himself in order that He might be born and live among us a perfect life, which allowed Him to offer Himself as our atonement. Only God could do this.
It is interesting that both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Triune God (as I believe is clearly taught in Scripture), yet they seem to not see that while they generally refer to Jesus as "a" god, they find no problem with idolatry in that view. The Trinity is beyond the scope of human understanding; however, this does not negate it, simply because we have a difficult time comprehending it. Mormons do not have an orthodox view of the Trinity and neither do Jehovah's Witnesses.
If Jesus is not THE God, then people who say they worship Him are worshiping something or someone else. Understanding that Jesus IS God is tantamount to truly understanding salvation. His identity is so interconnected with salvation that the two cannot be separated.
If you know people that remain either Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, then I have doubts about their understanding of WHO Jesus is and how His identity relates to salvation. If people say they believe that salvation comes by grace through faith (and not works), that's wonderful. They need to go a step further and determine exactly in WHOM they believe. Is Jesus to them merely a man who was elevated to a form of godliness? Did He start out as all human beings, or did He start off as God the Son and as Philippians and Colossians tell us, take on the FORM of humanity, which literally clothed (or covered) His deity from view?
I can only "band together" as you say, with people who share my view of Jesus. I believe He has always existed (John 1:1) and that He has always existed as God the Son. To this deity, He merely ADDED the human form. He became fully human, while retaining His full deity.
Many within Seventh-day Adventism do not believe this and it is because of this alone that I define them as a cult, just like I am forced to do so with Mormonism and those who adhere to Jehovah's Witnesses. A Mormon or Jehovah's Witness who comes to accept Jesus as fully God and fully Man, in essence rejects some of the main tenets of their faith. As such, how can they remain with those groups?
Nice blog. Nice replies. In the end I'm still persuaded that Satan fell from grace because he went against God. Had there been no God for him to go against, none of this theology debated here would have mattered. Let's extrapolate, ten commandments fit nicely inside a box. That box fit nicely inside a sanctuary, that sanctuary was a shadow of the real thing… Hmm, ten commandments always existed along with God. Hence, Satan fell by breaking them. I agree that the ten were nailed at the cross, in the sense that they were fulfilled by Christ. But this compass guides my life. I do not kill, steal, or break the Sabbath command. I'm an SDA. EGW and other controversial topics, forget it. If you can't get past the basic understanding of the word "remember". As in, God said remember, how can you remember something if it never existed… Remember meant it existed before then. I think God himself at creation was doing as he always did on Sabbath, he chilled… Get past that and then we can begin to systematically study the other things you are curious about, but are too prejudiced to comprehend.
It's funny how your own theological prejudices blind you to several inconsistencies. On one hand you say that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross, yet you follow them as they "guide" your life. Beyond this, you use a straw man argument regarding Satan, when you say, "Had there been no God for him to go against, none of this theology debated here would have mattered." In truth, if no God existed, we would not exist at all, much less Satan.
You might be interested to know that there are over 600 laws, not merely ten. The Ten Commandments represent God's moral law, yet when Jesus died on the cross, He did not simply nail those ten to the cross, but He fulfilled (nailed) all the laws to the cross. While yes, Christians are to keep the moral law of God, we do not do this FOR salvation. We do it BECAUSE of our salvation.
When you say you do not "kill, steal, or break the Sabbath command," what you are saying is that you uphold the letter of the law. But how about the spirit of the law? Have you ever been angry enough with someone to wish they were dead? Though you may never have committed adultery, have you ever lusted after someone in your heart? If so, according to Jesus, you HAVE committed adultery with them.
Obeying the moral code of God is absolutely fine. In fact, authentic Christians are called to do so, and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us the strength to obey the law – both in the letter AND the spirit – that allows us to live a life of holiness to God.
Your last statement, "Get past that and then we can begin to systematically study the other things you are curious about, but are too prejudiced to comprehend" is simply arrogance on your part. You are as prejudiced theologically as you claim I am, so that all by itself does not allow you to empathically understand my position. You have deliberately placed yourself in a position that is HIGHER than me. This means that you have succumbed to pride, which means you have sinned. This is the same sin that Satan gave into and because of it, was not only found severely lacking, but was cast from heaven.
If you believe you are saved, that's fine. You don't need to debate with me about it and in fact, debate generally serves little to no purpose in things of this nature. You're set in your views and opinions as I am. So what do we accomplish? Nothing, aside from exhibiting a "one upmanship" type of response.
I believe – by God's grace – I understand a great deal. My heart goes out to people who believe that living by the Ten Commandments is the way TO salvation. It is not. "It is by grace you are saved, through faith, and not by works, lest any should boast," (Ephesians 2). God made salvation extremely simple. Man takes salvation and ADDS to it because he cannot be content in thinking that God provided salvation completely free, with no strings attached.
Authentic salvation prompts the Christians to live a moral life before God. Counterfeit salvation (which is no salvation) says that man must do something, some type of work(s) in order to GAIN salvation and even MAINTAIN it. Though I clearly see from Scripture how this error can be seen, I also believe that it is just that: error.
I have met SDA individuals (and others) who firmly believe that they have not sinned in years, solely because they have kept the letter of the law. The problem of course – and Jesus pointed this out on numerous occasions – is that anyone can keep the letter of the law. It is the INTENTIONS of the heart that create an environment for sin.
I can truthfully say that I have never committed adultery. I cannot – unfortunately – say that I have never lusted and according to Jesus, lusting after a woman is virtually the same thing as committing adultery with her. The only differences are the consequences following each sin. If I merely lust in my heart, I am sinning against God. If I commit adultery, I am sinning against God and my wife.
Had King David lusted in his heart and stopped there, he never would have made a complete mess of his life by committing adultery and then committing murder.
"In the end I'm still persuaded that Satan fell from grace because he went against God." I agree. The difference between Satan and humanity is that Satan was a created being NOT created in God's image. Humanity WAS/IS created in God's image, which is the sole reason why humanity is redeemable and Satan is not.
Salvation is not following the letter of the law. It is following Jesus to the cross, realizing our need for repentance and agreeing with God that we have fallen short and are in need of Someone to lift us up, something we cannot do ourselves. When we arrive at that point, we come to realize that salvation is found in Jesus, through faith, by grace. This is what separates authentic Christianity from every other religion out there.
I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. I would like to affirm from the bottom of my heart that Seventh-day Adventists teach and believe that we are saved only by the blood of Jesus. As we behold what Christ has suffered to save us from our sins and look beyond the veil by faith to see Him pleading His blood on our behalf, we desire to show our love for Him by attempting in the strength that He provides to honor God by obeying His commandments as revealed in Exodus 20 and in the Sermon on the Mount. I do not believe I would loose my salvation in any way by fellowshipping with Christians of other faiths. My salvation is in Christ alone. Not even my feeble attempt of observing the seventh-day Sabbath merits me anything. All my righteousness is as filthy rags but in these efforts to honor the law that He spoke and wrote with own finger on tables of stone and promised to write in my own heart, I show Him and those around me that I love Him supremely.
Hi Andrea,
Thanks for writing. In looking over your comment, while parts of it are clear, others are not.
There are any number of things within Seventh-day Adventism that are questionable. If you truly believe that your salvation is gained through faith and nothing but faith in Jesus, that's wonderful. There are Seventh-day Adventist who would disagree with you regarding the ability to lose your salvation as well as a number of other things.
Ooh dang i just typed a big comment and immediately after i hit submit it come up blank! Please satisfy tell me it worked effectively? I dont want to publish it yet again if i do not need to! Both the weblog glitced out or i am an idiot, the latter doesnt shock me lol.
Sorry, this is the only comment you left.
I feel bad for you…the devil is leading you and you don't even know it, Moses laws and the 10 commandments are not the same. One is God's law. Please God open the eyes of the ones you need soon, so many more won't follow the lies but so many will learn the truth and will follow Jesus and not be led down the wrong path. If you have faith, you love God with all your heart and you want to please him by doing as he asks us.
Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will deceive many. "And you will hear of wars and rumors os wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet, for nation will rise against nations, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines, pestilence and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another, Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24 4:13 and on…keep reading
So Cheryl, am I to understand that you are calling me a false prophet? I've never said or implied that I am "the Christ."
I doubt seriously that you feel bad for me, Cheryl. That is simply something someone says as an aside, or negation before they rip into the person.
I've written books on Matthew 24 and Revelation. Which group do you belong to Cheryl, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Seventh-day Adventists? Moses' law and the Ten Commandments are not the same? Funny, but I recall that God gave ALL 613 laws to Moses (not just the Ten Commandments). Why aren't you following ALL of them, or are you not aware that Paul says that he who follows ANY portion of the law is required to follow ALL of it? You may wish to read the entirety of Galatians…
Cheryl, regardless of whether you are a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness or SDA, the theology within all those systems is filled with holes and as I said, they all claim that salvation is BY works AND faith. It is faith ONLY that saves us. None of my good works go toward my salvation at all. But we could debate about it forever. Instead, just take it to the Lord, all right?
Fred, what I believe about Ellen White is the same as the pioneers believed and she believed of her self – nothing more. My views ARE the 'orthodox' views now held by a majority of Adventists, commonly called Evangelical Adventism. There is no 'orthodox' SDA 'belief' – there always has and always will be a spectrum of beliefs within the SDA Church. Never heard of Desmond Ford? A huge number of contemporary Adventists don't believe in the Investigative Judgment, or don't believe in the 1844 aspect (but still believe in the phased-judgment aspect), or believe there are multiple meanings. That is my point. Who are you to say I am not a 'real' Seventh-day Adventist?
What you really want is only for conservative, historic adventists to comment on this website. They are not 'orthodox' Adventists, nor proper reflections of the first SDA pioneers, but adherents to a view formulated within Adventism after Ellen White's death from the 1920s-1980s.
If it has come to the point where you feel you must now simply censor me then that is your prerogative.
Please note sansea's reply regarding my posts, Simon. Please tell her that she is not "orthodox" regarding Seventh-day Adventism.
Simon, your comments are becoming exceedingly more redundant and superfluous. You really answer little to the questions I pose, and you simply repeat the same things over and over.
Yes, I've heard of Desmond Ford. Did not know his nickname was "Mike" though.
I also note that he was dismissed from Seventh-day Adventism for his views on Investigative Judgment. Since you seem to agree with him (at least on that subject), then by rights, as I stated, you are a terrible SDA. It is like some of the folks trying to take Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God (which began as a cult) and turn it into something that is mainstream and evangelical. It really can't be done.
You are staying with SDA, though you admit to not following certain basic and unique tenets of SDA. By your very admission then, you are correct, you are not the person that needs to be commenting here. The person who needs to be reading my blogs and commenting are people like "sansea."
You see, you are so busy trying to protect SDA from critique that you appear not to care for those individuals who are lost in the error of it.
So, without further ado, I think you're done here, Simon. By the way, it's not so much that I am interested in censoring you. It's just that your responses are irrelevant to the discussion.
Hello. I am emailing you because your 'blog' contains information that is misleading and misinformed. Your blog writer (whoever this is) apparently knows very little about the Seventh Day Adventist Doctrine and even less about the Bible. The reason for SDA Christians worshiping on Saturday is scriptural-completely scriptural. So why do you attack those who choose to worship on the day that Jesus Christ himself kept? No where in the bible does it command us to delete God's Sabbath day and replace it for Sunday. It is just not there. Keeping Sunday over the true Sabbath is merely FALSE worship. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, rested in the grave on Saturday (Sabbath) and rose on the first day of the week. I realize that Sunday worshipers like to use this as a basis for 'first day' observance. This stance does not and cannot hold up because there is no where in scripture where God ordained or changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. In essence Sunday worship was never sanctified or blessed by God. Rather, it was a man (Emperor Constantine) under the Papacy who instituted Sunday as a day of worship. Read the history of the christian church and see more clearly. Better yet, read exodus 2: 1-3 and Exodus chapter 20:8-11. Review the 10 Commandments. See also Ezekiel 20:12 and Ezekiel 20:20. By the way, the 10 Commandments were NOT nailed to the cross. If they were, then why does "mainstream Christianity" and "orthodox" 'Christians' still follow '9' of them? The only commandment that 'you' (in your terms:orthodox/"mainstream" 'Christians') choose to delete is the 4th Commandment in which God clearly specifies which day the Sabbath is. The Sabbath is on Saturday- the 7th day of the week- NOT the first day of the week. God told us to "REMEMBER" THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY." Jesus Christ and the apostles kept the Sabbath. See Acts 13:42-44. The Seventh Day Adventist church as God's remnant church stands alone. It is not linked in any way with the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses as you proclaim. If you say that Seventh Day Adventists are NOT Christians, you will have to explain Galations 3:26-29. ( If we are in Christ, we are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise.) God's people must be obedient to His word. See Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12., Revelation 22:14; Revelation 22:12-14. Those who disobey God's law are NOT His true people. Commandment breakers will have no part in the kingdom of Heaven. Those who willingly disobey God's law on earth will not be a part of God's remnant people. Christ is coming back for His ONE TRUE CHURCH. SUNDAY WORSHIP IS NOTHING BUT PURE PAGANISM FROM THE DEVIL. GOD HAS PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT CHURCH DENOMINATIONS AND HE IS CALLING THEM OUT OF FALSE WORSHIP. (See Revelation 18:3-4 and see John 10:16. In John 10:27, the bible says: "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." See 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
FALSE IF IT IS NOT BASED ON THE TRUTH. FOLLOW GOD'S DIRECTIVES NOT THE DIRECTIVES OF MAN.Jesus said in John 14:5, "If you love me, keep my commandments."
May the Lord bring you and yours more understanding as you study His word.
Hello Mrs. Sandra,
You open your comments with an attack on me, but you accuse me of attacking SDA, an ideology. You have attacked me personally, whereas I am simply trying to cut through all the jargon within the SDA and provide insight. If you disagree with my findings, that's certainly up to you, however please do not claim that I am somehow attacking SDA.
The fact that you believe I am mistaken in my views and understanding not only of SDA theology but the Bible is an opinion only. There has been much discussion regarding SDA theology and origins by many before me. You won't end the discussion by attacking me personally. My biggest question is this: are you saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? The way you talk about having to obey as if that is dependent upon the maintenance of your salvation leads me to believe that you are legalistically bound up in following the letter of (certain) laws. All I'm asking you and others within SDA to do is to ask yourself in the quietness of your heart whether or not you are convinced of your salvation. The problem though is that you cannot be eternally convinced of it because for you, there is the chance of losing it. This is merely a holdover from erroneous Roman Catholicism, which believes that salvation is gained and maintained by works plus grace.
Of course, you would disagree with me, but I do not see this in Scripture. Peter speaks of our obedience to Christ for instance, but that obedience in context refers to obeying the truth that LEADS to salvation. That truth is found in Jesus and His atonement for us. It is no different than when the thief on the cross realized who Jesus was and at that moment, he obeyed the truth that was revealed to him. He understood that if Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords, he needed to embrace that truth (obey it) and in doing so, humbled himself in order to receive salvation from Jesus that very moment.
It is because of LOVE we seek to obey Jesus in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit. This does not maintain our salvation as some erroneously believe. When I receive Jesus as Savior and Lord, my sins – past, present, and future – are completely wiped out. He no longer remembers them at all. If ALL of sins have been completely dealt with and literally cancelled, then how is it possible to LOSE salvation when I do sin in the future? It's not.
SDAs teach that salvation can be lost, that eternal salvation is not really eternal. Though it may begin in this life, it is tenuous until after this life. This is nonsense. What Jesus did was to finish everything that was necessary in order to provide eternal life to us starting now. According to your own beliefs, you have no surety of salvation. If you STOP worshiping on Saturday, you are in danger of losing the salvation that you believe you have now. In effect, your salvation then is based not on faith alone, but on faith plus works. If you stop worshiping on Saturday for instance, or if you fail to see as truth many of the teachings of your prophet Ellen G. White, then you are in danger of losing what you believe you have.
Obedience in Jesus comes from a pure heart, a heart of love, but it is not something we do that keeps or maintains our salvation, no more than the reason I do things for my wife is because I feel that I had better. I do things for my wife because I love her.
The problem with this is that we can get into all sorts of splitting hair contests, which will amount to nothing. In the quietness of your heart, pleas ask yourself if you believe fully that your sins – past, present AND future – have been permanently dealt with and if so, whether or not you have eternal salvation now. You don't have to report back to me. You simply need to ask yourself what I've outlined.
If you TRULY believe that ALL of your sins have been dealt with including future ones that you have not yet committed, then your salvation is based on faith alone. Yes, I realize that this attitude CAN produce an attitude that says "Hey, my sins are all gone, so I can sin as often as I want to!" but of course, that is a key sign that the person who thinks like that is either EXTREMELY immature in Christ, or not an authentic Christian at all. At the very least, that person does not understand the weight of our sin on the cross.
There is disagreement among SDA theologians as to which pope actually changed the times and the seasons. Some do not believe that any pope changed anything, but in fact, moving from Saturday to Sunday worship was done by the early Christians in Acts to separate themselves from Judaism.
While ALL of the law – 613 of them – were given to ISRAEL, as Christians we have an obligation to follow TEN of them, which represent His MORAL code for His children on earth. However, given that, we do NOT follow those laws in order to gain or maintain our salvation. We follow them because we love the Lord. Since I do not believe that a pope changed the times or seasons, but that Christians began to meet on the "first day of the week" in the book of Acts, then your understanding of Church history is – in my view – false.
The idea – or belief – that a pope changed the times and seasons, making him the Antichrist – by which he moved worship from Sunday to Saturday is preposterous, especially given the fact that SDA people do not even agree on which pope actually and allegedly changed the times and seasons.
You live by the law, and I suppose then that you understand that you MUST obey ALL of the law, not just the ten commandments that you find easy to do.
The entire book of Galatians is about Judaizers; those who were attempting to force people to follow the law in order to gain salvation.
This is what SDAs do. They attempt to enforce certain laws of the Old Testament (but not all of them) as a means of salvation. No, they do not directly come out and say that salvation is by works, but you implied it clearly below in your comments.
Worshiping the Lord on a "sabbath" is reverting back to the Old Testament, from which we are free. By THAT, I mean that we are no longer obligated to live the 613 commands. As Christians, we should obey ALL of God's moral law from the heart because we love him.
Mrs. Sandra, I'm afraid to say that your understanding of Scripture is severely lacking. I've written over 24 books on a variety of theological topics, including one of my latest on the book of Revelation. I may not have perfect knowledge (no one does in this life), but I know my way around God's Word.
The question YOU need to ask yourself is this: if YOU walk away from Seventh-day Adventism and start worshiping with another group, say like Baptists, or Independents, will you LOSE your salvation?
Thanks for writing.
Rev. Dr. Fred DeRuvo (Th.D)
Having worked at a SDA hospital and seen many Adventists in 18+ years, all I can say is that they are all for themselves and are a little bit strange. Their belief in not wearing jewelry as it is considered "adornment" is so off track, because they certainly like to flaunt their wealth in large homes, fancy cars, lavish trips and most SDA women wear makeup like a street whore. I call that the most prevalent display of adornment. Also of note, there are more gay SDA living lies, being caught in situations that most companies would fire those employees for, when all that happens is they actually get transfered to a different SDA facility. The other thing is there so-called vegetarianism. Not so…they drink coffee, eat meat (most are good about not eating pork), and some even drink wine…in a chaplain I know! Suprise, shock…come on…SDA are raised to associate only with their own, and they and they all seem to be thrown into music, healthcare, and such. There are some that I really like, but most are as two-faced as it gets. That is why I do not like ANY organized religion….they all have their own agenda and I just don't want to follow someone else's views….I'll stick to believing what I do is correct in this world and let the Lord decide what he'll do with me.
Here's the scoop, Simon. I am commenting on the essentially beliefs and teachings of Ellen G. White, who is one of the founding members of Seventh-day Adventism.
Whether you or anyone else BELIEVES that Ellen G. White's teachings are prevalent within SDA today or not is moot. There are PLENTY of people within the SDA movement who follow White religiously.
If as you say, you take issue with a number of White's key teachings, then in essence, you are not a true Seventh-day Adventist and would not be considered one by Ellen G. White.
You say you want to only deal with the Bible, yet on your own Web site instituted to refute what you consider to be false beliefs about SDA, you rarely use it yourself.
At any rate, here's the deal…since you – by your own admission – are not a true follower of Ellen G. White, then you are not really qualified to comment on the strict views of White as they apply to SDA. The SDA movement is largely based on White's teachings. You are an exception to the rule, much the way the individual who believes either Darby or Scofield is a prophet is an exception to the rule.
So here is the way this will be from here on out. If your comments continue as they are – drawing attention to you as an exception to the rule, as opposed to commenting on actual "orthodox" SDA beliefs, then your comments will not be published. I have no desire to censor you, however, it just seems to me that you are too busy misdirecting and drawing attention AWAY from the core beliefs of Seventh-day Adventism, by pretending that the preponderance of people within the SDA movement think as you do.
So, as of now, we will stop playing the game. You have your Web site and that should work for you.
Thanks for understanding, Simon.
Can you actually stop attending that group, leave it for a mainline, orthodox denomination and STILL believe that you are saved?
Answer: for SDAs yes. Whilst living in London for a number of years, I attended Hillsong Church because the SDA Churches there were too conservative (e.g. Ellen White, Investigative Judgment, no drums for music and all that).
I see. So you willingly CALL yourself an SDA, have a Web site that defends the SDA party line, but you also state that you do not follow White, or believe in Investigative Judgment? If this is the case, then I have to wonder why you would associate yourself with a group that is by most accounts a cult?
That would be like me being a Mormon, but then picking and choosing which doctrines I disagreed with, but continued to worship AS a Mormon.
There is nothing wrong with attending church on Sunday (at SDA Conventions they have church everyday) but I still kept the Sabbath – i.e. ( didn't shop, didn't watch TV, tried to take time to re-connect with my wife. We also went to a youth group run by SDAs that ran once a month on a Friday night (also the Sabbath).
But the reality is that you legalistically keep the Sabbath (Saturday as if you are Jewish). If you truly believe what you have just said, then you are a terrible Seventh-day Adventist.
Going to church has nothing to do with being saved – one isn't saved by any outward sign, be it baptism, communion, bible knowledge, church affiliation or any 'sacrament'. However, these things are important for one's spiritual growth. It is why Christianity is meant to be a communal religion, and Jesus is where two or three are gathered in His name.
That said, I do agree with you Fred insofar as SDAs, Mormons and JWs all consider themselves 'Universal' (literally 'Catholic') Churches. This is also the same as the 1 billion Roman Catholics and 300 million Eastern Orthodox (who believe the Eucharist and other sacraments are an integral part of salvation). It is also the same for your conservative Exclusive Brethren. I agree this is quite different from many Protestant denominations, which are often little more than regional or liturgical churches, and mixing and matching is much easier.
You make quite a few assumptions, Simon. You sound very lawyerly, like you're right in the courtroom trying your case before a jury. Man, if you could only hear yourself!
Regarding the "universal" aspect of the church, JWs, Mormons, and SDAs believe that they are the TRUE church, not merely the universal church. You make another assumption, or you are simply trying to redirect here.
Finally, how do you go in Churches that don't share your Dispensationalist views, or have these also changed over time?
Asinine question.