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Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by KGREG, Nov 2, 2013.
The chances of that happening is about as good as Stuckey finally making it to his sophomore year.
Well that is not necessarily true - there could have been other, better deals available which he turned down to play for the Pistons. Secondly, that was only a single instance of 'the market', in another instance/context he could be worth a different amount.
It is absolutely true my friend. That is how markets work. Then logically, the Pistons offer was the "best" offer. I have no idea what this part means.
Sorry I have spent way to much time studying and working within economics to let simply incorrect views of á market' stand. By what measure? People make bad decisions all the time. If there - hypothetically - was a deal for say 4yrs/60m, then there is no quantitative measure which supports the idea that the market determined the outcome. We know for a fact that Andre Iguodola turned down a $8m larger contract offer to play on a frontloaded version which isn't fully guaranteed for GSW. Can we assume that the value of not playing for Denver is higher than the money available, sure. But then it has nothing to do with the market and all to do with individual decision making. Essentially, markets are fluid. This isn't game theory. They move up and down. What you said was essentially 'things are worth what people pay for them', but I happen to think that is inherently flawed as an argument. I bought a car for $2000 which would normally have sold for 4000-5000 due to a number of circumstances on the sellers behalf. The market had determined that car would generally sell for 4-5k, there would have been plenty of interested buyers willing to part with that money, yet I bought for 2K, well under my budget of 4 (which I was willing to pay). The market didn't determine anything, circumstance did. Josh Smith falls into this basket.
We may have slightly different definitions, but there was a market (albeit a closed market, limited to the 30 NBA teams, their cap conditions etc) that gave Josh Smith one or more offers, of which he chose one as "best" for him. By his own subjective valuation. Economics is value free. "Good" and "bad" are value judgments. The only thing we can say, is that Josh picked the Pistons deal, ostensibly (as a rational actor) because he thought it was the "best" offer for him. Markets are compromised of individuals making decisions. You can't sell something for a price no one will pay (unless you're the government). Prices are set when two parties agree upon a value or rate of exchange. You can't create a non-arbitrary price with only one party.
In today's media environment if Smoove was offered a better contract we would have heard about it. Just as you point out Igoudala's better contract offer. Smith signed with us. We offered him the most $$. The market this offseason might be different, but in the summer of 2013 the market for Smoove was the 56 million or whatever we gave him.
Economics is most certainly not value free. It is perfectly reasonable, and rational, to compare outcome both quantitatively and qualitatively. To ignore either or these is absurd. Economists often make value judgements, backed up by evidence. Interesting too, that you brought up the idea of a rational actor. Which was exactly what I am talking about. There are few circumstances where you can think of either party in a negotiation as a rational actor. I certainly don't think a NBA player negotiating a contract is one of these. I'm not arguing that there is some kind of price paradox, I am arguing that value and price don't necessarily line up in this scenario. Here is a better one - my brother once gave me a $1 coin for my $2 coin. Both parties accepted the terms of the contract, and it was legally enforced and dictated by two separate parties. This is measurably bad value for me. I was underpaid. The market only determines prices, not values. Value is determined ex parte, so when I say Josh Smith is underpaid and there is reasonable evidence to suggest that he is, statements like are not necessarily true. The market provided deals, sure. But his decision (assuming there were multiple offers) is what created an outcome, and a value imbalance. Not the market. Why would we hear about it? Small market teams offer max contracts to players all the time under the radar, only to be rebuffed. They don't necessarily want everyone to know that they are being constantly rejected...
Man I love this place!
Uhm... it is if you want to have a meaningful discussion about economics. If you want to argue about our different values, that takes economics out of the realm of science and into the realm of debating. No offense, but I don't care what your values are, nor do I expect you to share mine. In fact, if we get reductive enough (and it would require a much longer discussion) no two people have the exact same values. It's not even possible to measure. Only between the two parties in the exchange. When they do so, they aren't acting as economists. They are acting as social commentators, or political analysts. Economics doesn't promote any particular values. According to Mises, who I tend to agree with, all human action is rational from the perspective of the person acting, or they would not act in that manner. The fact that different people have different needs and wants, at different times, and different predilections, biases, tendencies and with different information. The only way (and this is a claim about epistemology) that someone could have an objectively CORRECT value, would be someone on par with God, someone omniscient. No such person exists. Everyone has incomplete knowledge, and so the decisions they make can only be judged as rational within the bounds of their own capacity and knowledge to act. I don't know any other way to prove value than price. That's why we have markets and not Soviet commissars setting prices for goods and services. In fact, the Soviets used to borrow price information from Hong Kong back in the day in order to create their own internal price structures for the USSR. There is no objective measure of value, and we know that because of the Marginal Revolution. All value is subjective. I dislike discussing arbitrary fictional scenarios that don't happen often, if at all. Let's stick to discussing basketball. The only person who can say Josh Smith is underpaid, is Josh Smith. And if he feels he is worth $20 mill a year, and no one offers him that, then it is just his opinion man. He may as well also think he has super powers and can fly like an eagle. You're continuing to say "value" imbalance when again, value is subjective. You can't make objective claims like that without rejecting 200 years of economic thought. Now I'll allow, people by and large can get sloppy with expression, and people like to speak in terms of the objectively true/not true, but that's not correct, and any Classical, Austrian, and maybe even most Neo-Classical economists should instantly spot that stuff as not up to par. I think the burden of proof is on the person claiming there were other offers to substantiate that claim. If you can substantiate that Josh had other offers, great. If not, then we should probably abandon this line of reasoning because it would only be conjecture. Also, no hard feelings intended if any are felt. I really enjoy this sort of argument
Because we've both been quote bombing a lot, I will try to summarize my position. Josh Smith got a contract offer from Detroit. He may have received other offers, he may not have received other offers. Smith took the contract offer with Detroit. The "market" for Josh Smith, was Detroit's offer, plus any other offer. By choosing Detroit's offer, regardless of its nominal value, Smith was (implicitly) declaring that the Detroit offer had the best value for him. It could have been Joe's pitch. It could have been playing with Greg Monroe. It could have been more money than other people offered. It could be because he is a Red Wings fan. It could be some combination of all or none of those things. What we know, is Detroit made an offer, and Josh Smith took it. If there were other offers, Josh Smith did not take them. He chose Detroit's offer over any other. If it was the only offer, he took the best offer available. By choosing Detroit's offer, Smith has made a value judgement that such an offer was the "best" available to him (via the market of NBA free agency).
I agree with both of you guys. Josh took what the Market presented to him. In the NBA, the TAM (Total Available Market) changes on a minute by minute basis. When Rodney Stuckey slams his thumb in a car door and injures himself, it has a ripple effect to the talent pool of NBA players.
Did Smith turn down a higher offer to come here? Whats the Anyway, Hard cap will be around 77 mil next year ( projected ) so figure around 80 mil 2-3 years from now. Its supposed to be so punitive by then that no one will go over it. If we give Moose a Smith like contract at 13mil/yr. After that lets say Drummond commands 17 mil/yr then we will have 42 mil tied up in the front court starters. What will Jennings make 8mil/yr? Lets also assume that a decent SG will get another 8mil/yr So we would have 42+16 = 58 mil tied up in the starters. That leaves 15 players - 5 = 10 more players to sign with the remaining 22 mil or roughly 2.2mil/player.
How would you know that small market teams make max contracts all the time under the radar only to be rebuffed unless you heard they make max offers all the time only to be rebuffed?
I think you nailed it right there. There is no way we can keep all front court players longterm and field decent guards and bench players. When Joe signed Smith I think it signaled he really had doubts on Monroe's longterm prospects in Detroit. Also hedged his bet. I think it is 50-50 or less we resign him.
I like the kid, but unless Drummond starts shooting his fritos north of 60%, and develops enough of an offensive repertoire to average 20/15 with 2-3 blocks a game, $17M would be a boat anchor of a contract. As is, he's not worth much more than Monroe or Smith.
Jennings' contract is only 3 years, so he needs to be re-upped in th esame year as Drummond, good news is that so far there's no way I can imagine paying him more than what he currently makes, maybe even less if you gurantee him 5 years....would he balk at 5 years/ $35M? I also think you can get Drummond for $15M/yr, but after the first year Smith falls off the books and I think you can get him to take a $2 or $3M/yr paycut. We're actually pretty solid financially. I think we'll have about $25M for the other 10 players and let's say that 3 of those guys are MLE level players, so that'll be what about 3 X $6.5M, leaving about $5M for the remaining 7 players.....I imagine that we may end up about $3-$5M over the hard cap......which isn't too bad if you're competing for a title.
We're in much better financial shape than we were in 2009. Next year this time, we'll actually be paying only for players that can play.
I was not talking about personal values, but ways of valuation beyond price. Which exist. They are framing information with their background. Any measure without context is meaningless. Not a fan. I tend to think of rationality as acting in measurable best interest. And that is the generally accepted economic sense of the term. My point is that what Josh Smith is paid is not necessarily what he is worth. This isn't some anti-economics line of reasoning. It is actually perfectly reasonable. All it says is that the output of labour is greater than the cost. Marx anyone? Ill admit I have been sloppy - but at the same time you have said that value is not an economics problem, but it clearly is, unless of course you skipped all economics between 1600 and 1960. Subjective statements are not, but measurable value is. We don't need other offers. We can estimate the perfect market outcome using past performance. No hard feelings. Me too.
I hope you continue this debate. I find it fascinating.
Many teams could not afford to bid on Josh due to lack of cap space. So, with limited bidders, it is difficult to know what his true market value might be (i.e. if all 30 teams could bid on him free of salary cap limits/ luxury tax penalties). That is how salary caps hurt NBA players. For instance, imagine that 30 NBA teams were within $2MM of a hard cap and they all wanted to bid on Smith. He would have gone for $2MM and would have picked the destination that was most attractive to him (location, lifestyle, endorsement options, state income tax rates, schools, etc). It would be hard to say that was his market value. It was where supply and demand intersected, but demand was artificially squashed. However, it only takes 2 to tango, so many times, the market price is achieved even if bidders are limited. Did Smith get his market value in this case? I hope not and that Joe got a discount for having space. Maybe there were no other bidders though and Joe overbid.... possible.
Separate names with a comma.


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Bill Orieilley
The Jimmy Dore Show 9-21-12
The Jimmy Dore Show Sept 21, 2012
This Week:
Mitt Romney made the only mistake you can not make in politics, he accidentally told the truth. Of course I am speaking of the infamous 47% tape where he calls half the country "victims with an entitlement mentality who won't take responsibility for their lives". And then it gets really bad.
We have the Republican Presidential nominee sitting in with us for the entire show and he actually answers some of our questions about all of this. Mike MacRae, AMerica's greatest impressionist, who does the best Mitt Romney impression in the country, thrills us for the hour and tempers all my anger for Mitt Romney with well timed jokes. Big thanks to Mike MacRae!
The Forbes Magazine named the 400 wealthiest Americans in their latest edition, and Mitt Romney was not on it. He got so angry that he had Bain buy the company, fire everyone, and gave all their wives cancer.
For some reason the Sunday news talk show all love to book LIz Cheney. I can understand why she is such a good "get", seeing that she is the daughter of a war criminal, she is more than qualified to pontificate about everything.
Bill Oreilley calls and is a little drunk again. He is upset with our treatment of Romney and wants to straighten us out about it!
Mitt Romney caricature by DonkeyHotey
With Frank Conniff, Steve Rosenfield, Mike MacRae, Robert Yasumura, Stefe Zamorano!

subset: commoncrawl


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It is 'Bergkamp Week' on Arsenal.com as we
build up to the Dutchman's farewell testimonial at
Emirates stadium on Saturday.
We asked Arsenal Magazine editor Andy Exley to choose his favourite Bergkamp interview from Club publications last season. He plumped for this one:
Arsenal smashed their transfer record when Dennis signed from
Internazionale on June 20, 1995. He made his debut on the opening
day of the season against Middlesbrough in the 1-1 live Sky Sports
Super Sunday game at Highbury. His first goals for the Club came at
Highbury, a month later, in a memorable win over Southampton. The
season ended with Arsenal finishing fifth, and taking the final
UEFA Cup slot with victory over Bolton on the last day of the
season, courtesy of Bergkamp¹s winner in front of the
Clock End six minutes from time.
What are your memories of your debut Dennis?
Well it was my first connection with the crowd of course. I didn't know what to expect from the day. At that time I was one of the younger players at the Club. Look at the team that played that day, I think they were all older than me so that helped because it gave me a feeling that I would be ok with so much experience around me. That's how it felt. We had just had a good pre-season together, Glenn Helder was there with me. It was a new experience for me and I just wanted to play my own game. I was still looking for my sharpness of course after coming from Italy. We had quite an attacking team that day with Ian Wright, David Platt, Paul Merson. There was a great defence too, so it was quite a solid team already. Straight away I settled and it was a nice team to come into.
It was seven games until you scored for Arsenal, and you broke your duck with a stunning brace at home to Southampton. Was the pressure getting to you at that point?
No, because l didn't know anything about the media speculation waiting for my first goal. It was only afterwards I knew about that. I was living in a hotel at the time, I wasn¹t reading the tabloids, and I didn't see the football programmes. After being in Italy I wasn't really interested in the tabloids. But I understand that it got to the stage where people were talking about it. There was something in the papers about who is going to score first, the new Tottenham striker, I forget his name [Chris Armstrong] or me.
Was there relief after you finally did score though?
As a striker you want to score, and when I did I thought 'ok, now I can start'. The second goal came and I don't think I would have scored that if I hadn't scored in the first-half. It gave me the confidence. I was trying to find myself until that point, but from then I felt that I had really started.
Were you wondering if you had done the wrong thing coming to England in those first few weeks?
No, because I thought it was all normal. I had come from Italy in a competition where not many goals are scored. I was just trying to find myself in the team, and in the country so that was more important than scoring goals at that time. Ian Wright was scoring, we were doing well, so there were no complaints, no pressure.
The season ended on a high with that late winner against Bolton, how important did that prove to be?
That was my first season and we weren't in Europe that year so anything we could achieve better than the previous year would have been good. For that time it was seen as a good season, but we needed something to show for it, and qualifying for the UEFA Cup was it.You don¹t really realise how important it is until afterwards, the next season when you think, yes we¹re in Europe now, we are a big Club.
Bruce Rioch, the man that brought Dennis to Highbury, was sacked
as manager just days before the new season, yet it
wasn¹t until October that the new man, Arsène
Wenger, officially took over. It heralded the beginning of a new
era for the Club, and fans got an early taste of what to expect
from 'new Arsenal' when Patrick Vieira made a memorable
debut as a substitute in the 4-1 home win over Sheffield Wednesday.
In November Dennis played his part in his first victorious North
London derby, and celebrated the third goal with as much passion as
any fan that evening.
Arsène Wenger took over early in the season, were drastic changes made right away?
No, it was a subtle change. When he first came in he would always sit up in the Directors' Box at Highbury for the games. But it was a strange situation at first because we knew he had taken over, yet he was still abroad. Patrick Vieira had even signed and played for the team before Arsène Wenger took over. The staff didn¹t really know what to expect. They hadn't seen the new manager yet [he was still under contract at Grampus Eight] but here was a player who he had brought in and they didn¹t know what to do with him. I remember at first he was training with the reserves, for the first few days, because the staff didn¹t know what to do with him. But then Arsène became more and more involved until he came over here for good. From then on it was a slow change, but a lot of things did change. The
training sessions, the food, but it wasn¹t an abrupt change, it was subtle.
Patrick Vieira was just 20 when he made his debut 28 minutes into the game against Sheffield Wednesday. What do you remember from that day?
I didn¹t play but I was there at Highbury watching. That was such a big game for him because from the first moment he was there, he came on and single-handedly changed the game. He had the authority, the posture, everything. You could tell he would become a big player. By that time we had seen him already in training and what he showed in that game was good enough for us and he never looked back. He needed that game to change everyone¹s mind and he did that. You could say that performance set the tone for his whole career at Arsenal.
In November we beat Tottenham 3-1 at home, is that one of your fondest Highbury memories?
Yeah, I didn¹t know much about the rivalry between the clubs before coming here, but it came to me. People talk about it and at that time the level between the two teams was quite even and I realised that it was a fantastic game to play in and to do well in. There was an extra atmosphere. I played in the Milan derby, and big games for Ajax but because of the fans this is the typical derby. The fans are close to the pitch, and they create a great atmosphere. That particular game was fantastic. I won a penalty, Tony Adams then scored to put us ahead, and I scored the third one. For me it was the complete game because I got the assist for Tony¹s goal too. Everything was there for me, there was a bit of drizzle, a fantastic atmosphere, and it was extra special because we beat Spurs.
Dennis Bergkamp was voted double Player of the Season as Arsenal won the FA Cup and League Å'double¹ in 1998. He top scored for the team with 22 goals in all competitions, won two player of the month awards and the goal of the season. His season was cut short as he limped off injured during the penultimate match at Highbury, against Derby County, yet by then the hard work had already been done.
Early in the season you were on the pitch when your
strike partner Ian Wright broke the all-time Arsenal goalscoring
record at Highbury. Were you aware that you were a part of history
at the time?
Not at the time. It wasn¹t until I got close to 100 goals myself, and looked at the all-time list, that I realised what he had achieved. It was amazing, breaking a record that had been there for so long. I saw him day in, day out, he just scored goals for fun, in training as well. He would score from such positions that I thought 'how did he do that'? I didn¹t realise how impressive the record was until I saw it in writing, and saw his scoring ratio. We all loved him in the team and there¹s no doubt that if you don¹t like playing football with Ian there is something wrong with you. He brings joy to the game. I came over from Italy where everyone was always very concentrated, professional and serious virtually all of the time. Even in Holland, music before games just doesn¹t happen. For me Ian stood for all of that, the typical English atmosphere and humour in the changing rooms. It helped me a lot I must say, to make the switch from Italy.
You scored Match of the Day's Top 3 Goals of the Month in August, and won Player of the Month in each of the first two months of the season. Do you think that stage of your career was when you were at your peak?
It¹s difficult to say because I believe each season it gets more and more difficult to be a good player, you have to keep improving. The game is always changing. But take nothing away from that season because everything clicked at that time. I felt settled in the team and I felt I could take the pressure. In the first few years I wasn¹t hiding, but there were players there who would take the pressure, but that year people expected more and I could do it. Week in week out that gave me confidence and that¹s why I had such a good season, and it¹s one of the best I¹ve ever had.
So physically were you at your peak then?
Maybe, but it¹s now eight years later and I still feel good, and I can still score goals like I did. Maybe it just all clicked that year. People were looking at me, the players were looking at me too to make a difference and perform and I was able to do it. We all performed well that season though, it all came together for us.
Hobbling off at Highbury against Derby County with three league games and the Cup Final left must have been a huge disappointment for you, did you realise how bad the injury was immediately?
With a hamstring problem you know you will be out for some time, but I was happy because I knew I had done a lot of good things already for my team that season. I still felt I was a real part of it, it was disappointing to not be properly involved in the celebrations but the hard work had been done and I was involved in all of that. But it was hard missing those games. For me the only good thing, and the only thing to look forward to was the World Cup that summer. So I focussed on that. I was really looking forward to the FA Cup Final, really was, but it would have been harder if I didn¹t have any football to play for the next eight weeks, but the World Cup helped me forget about it.
For the fourth season in a row Dennis Bergkamp reached double figures in the Premiership scoring charts, as Arsenal finished second in the table. But he was slowly becoming more recognised as a creator, as well as a scorer of goals no more so than when he was named man-of-the match in the 5-0 win over Leicester, after being involved in four of the goals. He also played in a couple of memorable Highbury fixtures that season Freddie Ljungberg¹s goalscoring debut against Manchester United and Kanu¹s controversial debut against Sheffield United in the FA Cup, a game which was later restaged.
Freddie Ljungberg made an instant impact on his Arsenal
debut, but when Arsène Wenger brings these unknown players
into the squad do you ever think 'is he going to be good enough
for us?'
No because I'm a strong believer in only bringing in two, three or four players each season and they don¹t have to be big names if you already have lots of big names, and at that time we did. We had players who could be there for a few more years, it was a solid team, with a good back four. Of course if you bring in a player nobody's heard of and he doesn't do well, then nobody minds, because you didn't expect anything. But if he is a success, then great, you have got a player out of nowhere, and Freddie made that impact straight away and became a great player. That's a talent of the boss of course, to be able to bring in players like him.
You didn¹t score against Leicester City in the 5-0 win at Highbury, but you set up four goals. After a game like that do you go home just as happy as if you had scored a hat-trick?
Yes I do because although I score goals, I've never seen myself as a real goalscorer like some strikers can be, to be there at the right time to get the tap-ins. I think after that game people really started to think 'he's more of a creator.' People started to understand that and the previous season I was the top scorer but that wouldn¹t happen any more. I now had more strikers around me who were better goalscorers and I'm happy with creating because I believe that's my strength, to see things. So if that combination works I don't have to be the goalscorer. I'm happy to drop back a little bit. I think I could be a selfish striker, but the way I play is to always look for the best option.
You played in the infamous Sheffield United FA Cup game at Highbury which the manager offered to replay at the final whistle. What was the players' reaction when you heard you had to re-play a game you had just won?
I think everyone had the same reaction, and knew it was not right to win it like that. We felt that we were strong enough to do that and looking back that was a great gesture. It was strange. Immediately the players thought it wasn't right. You can¹t blame the players, and you had to laugh a bit, but it was just some sort of miscommunication. People didn¹t really know what to do, we just looked around and everyone was carrying on. We were a little bit embarrassed but we played them again so it all worked out.
Also that season was Arsenal¹s heaviest home defeat, albeit coming in a League Cup match, for 75 years. You played in that 5-0 Worthington Cup defeat to Chelsea, what are your memories of the day?
It was a young team but I was coming back from injury and basically I needed a game. The boss was using the Cup to play out the young players, so for me I was just playing a game but for Chelsea it was an important game and they played big players. It was strange to lose 5-0 but really that game doesn¹t stay in my head as a really bad memory because everybody knew what was happening. There was a big team against the youngsters, so it wasn¹t really seen as a big disappointment.
At the beginning if the 1999/2000 season Thierry Henry joined, and a new striking partnership was born. The season was most memorable for the UEFA Cup run which took Arsenal all the way to the Final. Once the Club made the decision to revert home European games back to Highbury from Wembley the results were instant.
Dennis Bergkamp 1999/00 statistics Competition Appearances Goals Premiership 23+5 6 Europe (Champions League) 11 4 Totals 34+5 10
You played and scored when Thierry made his Arsenal
debut on the opening day of the season at home to Leicester.
He says he was 'rubbish' in his first few games for
Arsenal, how did the rest of the players support him?
I've heard Thierry say that he thought he was rubbish when he first joined and thought that the other players would think he was rubbish too. But you know as a player when someone is rubbish or not. He might have had bad games in his head but we knew he had something, we could see by the way he moved, by his control, not just in the games but in training. There was so much potential there. It was just a case of giving him time to develop. I don't know how to explain it but in life you can feel if you have got something good, with anything, and we knew that he was going to come good. It was all there. I don¹t know why it didn't work for him at first, I can¹t talk for him but maybe it was because he was used to playing in Italy where you only get one or two chances per game so over here he was thinking 'I have to score with every chance' and he was trying too hard. But there was never a doubt that he would be successful. I tell you we have had some players here on trial before and you can tell early on when they aren't going to be good as well. You think 'hmm, that's not going to work', but for him we knew it would happen.
Arsenal didn¹t have a great record at Wembley, our home from home in the Champions League, but did you personally enjoy playing there?
I loved it, I loved it there. As a striker you got more space and that¹s what I'm always looking for in a game. When you play on a narrow pitch it's harder, especially when teams come just to defend. Perhaps what happened for us at Wembley though was the other teams got a real boost from playing at Wembley. Our defenders used to say they would struggle there because they were used to being compact at Highbury, and at Wembley there was more space and we struggled with that. For me I always loved it there, I scored there for Holland too, so I enjoyed Wembley.
You scored the only goal in the semi-final first leg against Lens at Highbury, one of your most important goals for Arsenal?
I think so. We had to do something in Europe, get to a final. We played at home first so it was important to win that game and I feel we deserved to get to the final that year. People ask me a lot what my best ever goal is and I find it difficult to separate a good goal from an important goal. I can curl a ball into the top corner for example, but if you don¹t win that game then it doesn¹t matter. I can mention a few goals but I would say the one for Holland against Argentina [in the 1998 World Cup] because it got us to the next round. Then afterwards you look at it and can say it was quite special but the goal itself was probably the most important.
As the longest serving member of the squad, Dennis Bergkamp will have more to reflect upon than most when Arsenal finally say goodbye to Highbury the end of the season. The Dutchman is now into the 11th year of his Arsenal career, and he¹s had plenty to celebrate during that time. Highbury has been the setting for many of his Gunners highlights both for the team and on a personal level. As well as enjoying three title-winning celebrations at the famous stadium, Dennis netted his first and 100th Gunners goals at N5, and has been involved in many of the Club's most memorable and significant performances at 'The Home of Football' since joining Arsenal in 1995. Last month Dennis recalled his first five seasons at Highbury. In this, the second part of the interview, he concludes by looking at the last five years, as well as speculating on playing at Emirates Stadium.
The season will forever be remembered for the agonising FA Cup Final defeat at the hands of Liverpool at the Millennium Stadium. It was a frustrating year for Dennis personally too as he was laid low for long spells with a succession of calf and Achilles injuries. When fit he was often vying for a starting position up front with Thierry Henry, Kanu and Sylvain Wiltord, and was occasionally used in midfield by Arsène Wenger during the campaign.
You played in midfield a bit that season, against Lazio
for example. How did you feel about that?
At the time it was hard for me to get into the team up front. The manager was trying other players, the rotation system as well, but he wanted to try me in midfield. I think I had an assist in that game against Lazio for Freddie, and generally I felt I had a good game there but it¹s not me. It didn¹t feel right. I used to play as a right winger, that¹s how I started in professional football, but this was more in midfield, a right half. Defensively I was not comfortable, I could learn it probably but it was not instinctive.
Dennis helped to inspire Arsenal to their third League and Cup 'double', and the second during his time at the Club.He missed just five league games and finished the season in unstoppable form, often providing the killer ball for Freddie Ljungberg who netted seven goals in seven games in April and May. Dennis netted his 14th goal of the season in the final game, at home to Everton, as the Premiership trophy was presented at Highbury.
You scored the winner to knock Liverpool out of the FA
Cup at Highbury, was there a measure of revenge in the air
following the previous season¹s Cup Final
There was a great atmosphere in that game and it was probably due to the previous year's final. It was important for us to show something against them in that game. We always felt comfortable in the FA Cup though, every season, I don¹t know why, it brought something extra to us each time, and atmosphere-wise it was special too. The team were always fired up for it, and yes there probably was some sort of revenge for the previous May. We had to prove something and we did.
Your partnership with Freddie reached its peak at the end of that season. What do you put the excellent understanding between the two of you down to?
Well he is probably the player that makes the best runs. If he goes at the right time he can just find his way through defences and he needs someone who can pass him the ball. He knows what to do with it then, he can control the ball and finish. That's a quality that's underestimated. You have the pressure of controlling the ball, then you have the pressure of scoring the goal, because people expect you to. He¹s a very good finisher, and how he does it sometimes you don¹t know, but the ball goes in and it's a big quality that he has.
Do you two work on it in training or is it natural?
We never work on that, you can't I don't think. It's just a combination of my vision, my ability to pass the ball and see the gap I suppose, and his ability to make the run and finish it off. If it clicks, it's impossible to stop. You can¹t defend against it. All you can do is put an extra man behind, but then that offers options elsewhere.
Having missed out on the Everton game in 1998, was the 4-3 home win on the final day of 2001/02 one of the most enjoyable atmospheres you've played in?
Yep, it was like a party. We had won it at Old Trafford the week before of course, but that was a great atmosphere in front of our fans that day. The pressure fell off and we could just play our game. It was a special day. You want to show how good you are, not by doing tricks and embarrassing the opponents, but by playing well and often that gets you a result too, even if you don't need it. It also meant we scored in every league game that season. When you joined that was exactly what you wanted, to play in an attacking team. It was fantastic, fantastic. It¹s what football is all about in my opinion. Fans will always want to see that. Of course they want results and titles, but week in week out they go to the games and they go to be entertained. When you get the results too you are spoilt. You want results, good football and goals we stand for that, we want to provide that and play in that way. That¹s the way I always wanted to play the game so to be a part of it is fantastic.
Dennis became the 15th player to score a century of Arsenal goals when he scored against Oxford United at Highbury. The Gunners came close to clinching a second successive League and Cup 'double' but defeat at home to Leeds in May ended the title hopes.
How much did scoring your 100th Arsenal goal mean to
People were talking about it a lot before and I realised that it was quite a big thing. First of all you have to stay with the Club for a long time, and secondly you have to be an important part of the team at the highest level to score those goals. Those things all come to mind and you realise it's a good achievement. When you look at the list with all the names on it, you can be proud of it and I am. I'm happy to have that down on paper and to be a part of history. You played in the 3-0 home win over Spurs.
Was Thierry's goal that day among the best you¹ve seen at Highbury?
Yes, I think you have to look at that one it was pretty impressive. It showed what he is all about strength, pace, good thinking in front of goal, and a calmness to finish. That sums him up I think. That goal certainly comes to mind straight away when I think of Highbury.
The 3-2 home defeat to Leeds at the end of the season confirmed that we lost the title. Was that one of the hardest defeats to take at Highbury?
I don't remember too much about that game to be honest. What I do remember from that time was that games were a struggle for us, we weren't making it easy and that defeat to Leeds summed it up. It wasn¹t our year, and we were always having to make an extra effort in those last few games that season, nothing came easy for us. Of course defeats like that are always very difficult to take but there is always something to look forward to afterwards and that's what you have to do to stay positive.
Dennis played his part in the incredible unbeaten league season, as he won his third championship medal in English football. The title was wrapped up at White Hart Lane, and the Gunners' place in history was assured when Arsenal defeated Leicester at Highbury on the final day Bergkamp superbly setting up Patrick Vieira for the winner. The season also saw the introduction of Jose Antonio Reyes, the latest of a long line of 'next Dennis Bergkamps'.
You helped Arsenal make history by beating Leicester on
the last day to complete an unbeaten league season. What was that
game like?
Well the only aim was to remain unbeaten, we had already won the trophy so it was a bit strange. We had just had a couple of dodgy results before, a few draws, so we were thinking 'here we go'. We just needed to put things right in that game and it was a struggle that day too because we had to come from behind. We felt as a team that we were going to be OK though, and we showed what we wanted to do in that game.
A couple of weeks earlier we were trailing 2-1 at half-time at home to Liverpool in a crucial league game. What did Arsène Wenger say during the interval?
The boss said what he usually says, 'believe in yourselves, just play, play your game' because we were holding back. That happens a lot, we hold back and wait for something to happen instead of making it happen. A lot of our bad results come that way. We sit and wait and see how the game develops. When we step up, make the game our own, you see a totally different team. That was an example of that against Liverpool. In the second-half we got out there and turned it around.
So what does Arsène usually say at half-time, does he ever get angry?
He's very intelligent, he does his team talk and says the things he wants to say and that¹s it. He hardly ever gets frustrated or mad because he believes in his players. If someone makes a mistake, that's ok, there is no point in hammering a player for that. If they make the same mistake two or three times, then you start to think hang on, are you awake? Then he will mention it, but he hardly ever gets really upset. I think for the team he has created we don¹t need that approach anyway because the team aren't likely to respond to it.
Jose Reyes scored his first Arsenal goals in the home FA Cup win over Chelsea. What¹s he like to play up front with?
It's a different style. He¹s amazingly quick with or without the ball, he¹s got a lot of tricks, a good left foot. For him I think it's important he continues to develop each year because he's an amazing talent but it¹s not only talent you need in English football. He has really responded to that challenge though this year already.
Do you think he will be more of a creator or a goalscorer?
I think it's hard to know. He loves the ball, he loves to play with the ball, he needs to have a few touches but that¹s his game. I think he is still looking for what his position is, he likes to play on the left or up front, he can do both, that's the main thing, but he is an amazing talent and a great left foot. You can see that from the start and he¹s one that is loved by the fans.
Last season Dennis earned his seventh major honour for the Club, ending another superb year on the winning side in the FA Cup Final. It was also the season in which Arsenal set a new record for the longest unbeaten run in football league history. Going into the final home game of the season, against Everton, it was still not clear whether Dennis would be offered a new contract for the following year. He produced a vintage display in the 7-0 win over Everton though, and the adoring Highbury crowd made their feelings known with chants of 'one more year' ringing around the stadium.
You scored in the home match against Middlesbrough which
equalled the all-time unbeaten league run. We won 5-3 after
trailing 3-1, what emotions did you experience that day?
It was fantastic. For me personally there is one picture that sums it all up. After Reyes scored I am in the background celebrating and I was so pleased. It was like it had all worked. We came from behind, and then suddenly we started playing again and made the difference. It was a fantastic feeling. I was captain that day too so I was proud, really proud - my players had done it! I played a part in it too and I really enjoyed that day, I really did.
In the next game at Highbury Cesc Fabregas became Arsenal¹s youngest ever league goalscorer. What are your thoughts on him?
Cesc surprised a lot of people at the start of that season, including people inside the Club. His talent was always there, his vision his passing, that was there. But it seemed when he first came, he was 16, but the pace at which he was doing things was not at the highest level. But he came back after that summer and he had just changed it. He started in the Community Shield, and from then he really surprised us. Tackles were flying in and we could see he had added it to his game. The year before when he was 16 you could say that was missing from his game, but last season he added it. He is another one in the category of unheard of players who will become a big name. He has got a good mind, he loves football and he always looks for the right solution.
The season finished at Highbury with that 7-0 win against Everton. You made three and scored another in that game, did that evening sum up your relationship with the Highbury faithful?
I think so. That was quite emotional. The contract hadn¹t been sorted out, the manager had said something two or three days before the game, but nothing was decided, it could have gone the other way too. For me it was one of those games when everything worked. Maybe I had to prove a point, I don¹t know. It was a fantastic game and the fans were just amazing. They picked it up straight away and it makes you realise that the supporters really know what¹s going on. I wondered how they would react, I hadn¹t talked to a lot of people about the situation, but they picked it up and went with it.
So what does the future hold for Dennis? This is likely to be his final season at Arsenal, and of course it is certainly his last at Highbury. His impact on Arsenal, and indeed English football, will never be forgotten though he has already racked up more appearances for an English club side than any other foreign player in history. Now in his 11th season, he is due a testimonial, which is likely to be at Emirates Stadium in the summer.
Looking at your Arsenal career, what has Highbury meant to you?
You can¹t sum it up in one word or even a few words, it's a combination of things. For me, when I think of Highbury, it's the fans, the closeness of the stadium to the pitch, my family up in the executive box, the grass, the superb pitch, the little tunnel that when you are in you think 'is this one of the top five clubs in the world?' the half-way house, the dressing room, the clock everything. It¹s all very traditional. It could be much more modern, but in English tradition it wouldn¹t be the same so that couldn¹t happen. Then as soon as we go out there, we play such a modern, attractive style of football and that contrasts nicely with the traditional, historical setting of the stadium - that sums up the 11 years for me.
You¹re due a testimonial Dennis, which could possibly be at Emirates Stadium?
Yes, I'm hoping for a game there. I think they have to have two or three preparation events at Emirates before the season starts, and a testimonial could be one of those. I'm not sure yet, but it would be great to get the chance to play there. It will be nice to have some connection with the new stadium, I will have an idea what it will be like to play there because I don't think there's any chance of another season from me. At the moment I feel happy with my career so far and it would be a nice moment to stop because it¹s the end of Highbury. And to be honest I will be 37 at the end of the season, and that will be enough.
So what will you do after retiring? Could you envisage staying in football?
I would have to see what happens, see what comes my way. If I miss it, I will go back into football, if I don¹t then I will stay away. But at first I think I will just enjoy life without the big part that football plays. I will do other things, enjoy England, enjoy London. I think we would stay living here for a while. We will go to Emirates Stadium to watch the team. I will have a box there so I¹ll be able to shout out to the players that they are rubbish!
*amended for the website version to include his games up to the end of the 2005/06 campaign.Copyright 2017 The Arsenal Football Club plc. Permission to use quotations from this article is granted subject to appropriate credit being given to www.arsenal.com as the source


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|Topic Review (Newest First)
The vet doesn't know what s/he is talking about regarding dogs' behavior and the vet needs socialization! I mean, I'm a bit outspoken but this is a client s/he's dealing with and some degree of tact is needed.
So,,, new vet time.
|Thanks everyone. I actually did not like the vet that much. Several people recommend her and said she loved animals and had fair prices. Personally, I thought she rushed us, didn't want to answer our questions and acted annoyed that my kids were with me. I probably could have worked past those issues, but as I said I did not like her doing that to my puppy or saying I was not training her right because I didn't use physical correction. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels this way. Next time I'll trust my instincts.
|Colie CVT
There are some times when we need to hold the dog's muzzle as technicians - such as keeping the head still while the vet looks into the ears or keeping their head still when the vet looks into their eyes. I do my best to keep my handling to a minimum, use appropriate pivot points to my advantage and I know a lot of ways to adjust myself to keep a vet and myself from getting hurt lol. I'm honestly fairly bad when it comes to puppy mouthing because I find it amusing and don't mind them doing it, or I simply shift my hands into a position that makes it harder to nip at them, so eventually they stop trying.
In general, vets are not behaviorists or trainers. Some of them have more knowledge than others. Those who know GSD would know that they are more of a less is more kind of breed, and you have to work with them rather than against them. I don't know if you as owners have noticed this, but they also always know shepherd people. It is why I get annoyed at times with my co-workers who don't understand my dogs.
I had one of them try to tell me that my new 5.5 month old puppy was picking fights with my 3.5 year old golden. Since I got Doyle, he has been nipping, licking, pawing at Myles' face and body. Myles loves puppies. He loves to play with them. Wrestling is one of his favorite things. However when stuck in a kennel with puppy, he has a limit to how much kissy face he will take. I have been letting Myles tell him it isn't okay, because truthfully Myles needs to tell it. And while he can look/sound vicious, he rarely actually uses his teeth. In my opinion this is dog politics and since Myles is judicious with it, I don't have to be involved. However hearing her say that my puppy was trying to pick a fight had me staring like, are you mad? Other co-workers snorted and said, he has to learn. Some people sadly just don't know dog breeds.
Personally I see it as you have two choices. Either find another vet who knows shepherds better or even just is better at leaving out training advice for those who know more about training, or you can ask the next time you go that she please refrain from trying to discipline your dog as it is your responsibility as the dog owner, not your vet's. I wouldn't dream of doing something like that with a client's dog. Puppies are puppies. I have more fun asking them to sit for treats and squishing their puppy faces, and getting to love on puppies in general.
Just like with your personal doctor, you should be comfortable with your vet and trust them. Who works for some will not always work for others.
|I would turn and run. And fast. Don't ever let another person do that to your pup or you WILL have aggression issues fast.
Yeah new vet. I had a similar experience. I was told my existing vet did not like shepherds. I thought that was silly, how could a youngish vet not like a breed? Well I go in there with my Dutchie and he just reads me the riot act that I have a protection breed that is dominant and that I need to do this and that and never let them do this and that and I was trying to let him know that I knew what I had and the vet just did not listen to me. Mind you this is a vet I have used for over a year. He just was disrespectful... and I swear he did not like that Tygo was going after his shoe laces. His own dogs are labradors. Anyway, I got a new vet whose own dogs are huskies.
Get a new vet. And good luck.
I usually get defensive with threads like this. But actually, that would have made me uneasy as well.
When I talk to new puppy owners I steer them towards positive, let them know what is normal and not. If the pup is getting too rough I yelp! Then redirect. I never ever, nor do any of my Drs physically correct a puppy for being a puppy. Not cool.
Many vets are not current on training techniques. Many are old school. I have seen lots in my younger days that would give me fits now.
If you like everything else about this vet, and want to stay there, then go in prepared next time with super duper treats. Every time the vet does something that the puppy starts to mouth at, shove a treat in his/her face. Redirect right then and there. Be proactive. Training should continue no matter where you are.
When the vet comes in, before doing anything to your pup, tell them " we are working on his mouthiness, if he mouths you, please yelp loudly and when he stops give him one if these yummy treats please". I would then throw in " we really want every vet experience to be positive for our little guy, so we are trying to make sure anything scary is followed by good, that way when he is bigger he won't feel scared or defensive to be here. " The vet will then be aware that you are being proactive ( many clients are not) and will have clear guidelines on how to handle it.
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|The biting, more spirited ones are the fun ones! Grabbing her muzzle will only encourage more biting. Stick with consistent redirection and she'll be fine.
|New vet!
|If it was me, I would seek a different Vet. My first Vet used to do stuff like that to Jonas; from 8 weeks until 5 months old. I really wished I would of not returned after the first visit, but I did until I couldn't take it anymore. If you like this Vet. Tell them you will take care of the training of your pup, and just give it its shots it is supposed to have." Just because they are a Vet does not make them a trainer, or a nutritionist for sure".
|Harry and Lola
Geeeze some vets are just so not GSD people!
it is perfectly normal for your puppy to mouth, by nipping you and other dogs she will learn bite inhibition. Learning bit inhibition started with her litter mates when she would bite too hard and the other puppy would either tell her off or walk away leaving her on her own with no one to play with. You need to do the same and your older one will instinctively do this. This is normal learning behaviour. In order to learn this, they need to mouth!
Some Vets are not interested in assisting pups with learning or helping with aggression, so it is always a good idea to have your puppy focus on you when the vet is fiddling with her. I have always done this with a heap of treats in my pocket and commanding the 'look' and then rewarding. I have also held my GSDs head towards me. I have never ever had an issue, however it is best to be cautious.
Also, something to think about, if you are not happy with this vet then go to another one, hopefully you can find a vet experienced and comfortable with German Shepherds, because not all Vets are and finding one that is makes a huge difference.
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