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FEA actually approximates a structure by filling it with triangular elements and calculating the effect at each corner and in the middle of each straight line, TET-10 is a preferred element, so-called because it uses tetrahedrons and computes at 10 points (6 sides 4 corners).
Engineers like triangles because you can consider the sides to be in tension or compression andsuch effects tend to be an order of magnitude more significant than the bending moments seen at the corners.
Take a look at any tube frame, such as for an aircraft fuselage or a race car, and you will tend to find triangulation. Tubes can be of smaller section when they can transmit loads by tension or compression instead of bending.
None of which really speaks much to the question at hand. The thing that can't reliably or easily be simulated by FEA is the effect of welding in something to close off a C-channel section. Weld tends to be a stress riser, especially when it can't be properly normalized. Welding tends to create an area that has been heated resulting in a higher local hardness, and higher local strength, and at the edge of the heat effected zone is where you are most likely to find fracture first (on good welds).
Which means what? As far as the question at hand, probably nothing again...
In practical terms, though, there is a problem with boxing a c-channel traingularily (if that's a word)... It's an acute corner, and that isn't usually very good for getting the end of a wire to where one piece of metal touches the other. You're more likely to create a weld that is like bridging an air gap, and that means a non-optimal weld... One thing you don't want is transmitting load through weld, you want welding to be the joining of metal from one piece to the other by melting them together.
You could do this by cutting off the unused bottom flange, but now it's more work. And a sharp cormer to hit your head on.
|What did you use to box the frame? 1/8" plate steel?
|you wont save more than 5-10 pounds by swiss-cheesing the frame.. and im sure you will accumulate that weight in road crud in the frame prety quickly.. also water wont be able to run back out.. ive attached some pics of what i did on my malibu, it added about 20 pounds and made a world of difference
|This is a good thread for me right now. I removed the rusted old x-frame and left with open c-channels. The front section is all boxed in and middle to rear is open 2 x 5 c-channel and towards the back 2 x 3". I'm going to box mine in and like you i'm concerned about the extra weight. My solution along the 2 x 5 section anyway is to make a nice row of 3" or so holes like a swiss cheese frame. After it's boxed I was going to add in a new trans, rear shock crossmember and another crossmember like one for a ladder bar in front of my front leaf spring mounts and add in a 2x2" ? square tubing at a 45 degree from the ladder bar crossmember to the boxed in siderails.
|bet on black
maybe what he is trying to say is overall flex in the frame, not just one rail of it. while i think we can all agree that a boxed rail would be stronger and less prone to flex than an open c-channel, the cross members may still flex and let the two channels no longer be parallel in side view.
it seems like there are two different situations being discussed here. i don't have any way to prove it, but a triangulated cross member would have to be less prone to flex as a simple square one would, right?
While I was looking around trying to find an answer before opening this thread, I ran across something that looks promising. The trouble is that some of it looks like math and some of it looks like some kind of programming language and almost all of it flitters by right over my head:
How long do you need it to last? I would venture that either design will outlast all of us.
Metal fatigue doesn't usually occur in structures that are never subjected to stresses that are less than 1/2 their yield point. I would think that the open leg of a channel would be subject to developing stress risers at the edge way before the same channel that was boxed. Even figuring in a crappy weld. Also, the opposite corner would be sharper of an angle, and would have less ability to resist development of stress risers than a 90 degree corner that you'd have with a fully boxed beam.
And making joints at an angled side of a beam would make a fabrication nightmare, Although there would be more of an interface area to spread the stresses out.
Do you have any examples of structures that use a triangular cross section type beam instead of a rectangle or square?
I'd think if it was stronger it would be in much greater use today.
I think many times metal fatigue occurs because it was crappy metal to begin with, and joint design and misapplication of the end use causes failure.
It's easy to say that metal fatigue was the cause of failure, when you've exceeded the design limits of the frame many times over by putting more weight, power and subjecting the frame to higher stresses than it was ever intended to resist..
BTW, I misunderstood your first post. I thought you were talking about the frame structure as a whole, not just the beam.
|Your list of "what if's" are the sort which require "finite element analysis" and, now that I'm retired, I don't have access to the software with that capability. I modeled with sharp corners, which certainly would be avoided. But, I believe I can safely say that, after the FEA and after every effort is made to remove stress concentrations, a structural engineer would still go with the fully boxed configuration. But, again, if you're looking for space to neatly tuck away fuel lines, for instance, the triangulation would be quite adequate.
Does that calculation take into consideration the flexing at corners or is it based upon an ideal, theoretical, unflexing shape? I would be surprised if that CAD software was doing anything more than plugging numbers into the formulas and spitting out the results. Those results don't cover everything to be considered.
I just don't think that polar moment of inertia is the whole picture. That only tells you how much the object resists. It doesn't tell what happens to the object if it is subjected to continuously varying torsion over a long period of time. It doesn't tell what happens to the steel along the edges where the planes meet after that boxed frame has been bounced down the highway a few years.
It looks to me like the greatest stress will occur at the corners. A box can flex at the corners at levels of stress far below the failure point. Isn't that what causes metal fatigue? Especially with sharp corners, isn't boxing setting the frame up to fail from little cracks, sometime down the road?
|grouch, my CAD software calculates the polar inertia for me, so all I had to do was describe a "for instance." With a 4 X 2 "C" fully boxed (0.090 walls), the polar inertia is only about 10% greater than with the triangulation. So, if you have some need to triangulate a section, there's not a whole lotta difference. Note, however, that the fully boxed is the better choice. And, it's lighter.
Yes, loading is shared among A, B, C. The bottom flange, A' is no stronger than before C was added.
Imagine clamping the frame in a vise at about mid-way along one side and then bouncing the opposite side up and down. Wouldn't a rectangular box shape distort more readily than a triangular one? Is this the type of flexing that boxing is aimed at?
Clamp it at one suspension mount point and bounce the frame at the diagonally opposite corner. Would the triangular cross-section resist that flexing more than a rectangular cross-section?
|home brew
I'm no engineer but I think that your new web piece (call it C) would be transferring loads from A to B just as it does when it is not boxed by B'. In the boxed situation the loads on A are shared by B and B'.
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Ok, given a C channel of A, B, A' dimensions, typical boxing closes the open side, to yield A, B, A', B'.
If, instead of that 2nd B side, you put in a web from one corner, say the B-A corner to the upper outside, it would be sqrt(A^2 + B^2) wide. That triangular tube would be weaker than the ABA'B' tube? The shape doesn't figure into its strength?
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The Canisius College swimming and diving team completed its regular season on Saturday by sweeping longtime rival Niagara.
The men won 176 to 121 to improve to 9-2 in dual meets this year, while the women took the meet 195 to 93, improving to 7-4.
The women raced their way to first place finishes in every event. Eight different women took home first place finishes in the meet, with six of them winning in multiple events.
Senior Anna Schena celebrated her senior day by taking first place in the 200-yard butterfly with a time of 2:12.90, just six hundredths of a second ahead of sophomore Alicia Wheeler.
Wheeler was able to clip Schena in the 100-yard butterfly though, taking the event in 1:00.55.
Reigning MAAC Female Swimmer of the week, junior Marissa Oakey took home the top spot in both the 500- (5:15.12) and 1000-yard freestyles (10:46.15). Sophomore Alex Doody won the 200-yard freestyle (1:59.52) and 200-yard IM in a time of 2:18.05.
Sophomore Clare Battaglia was able to win both the 100 and 200-yard backstrokes in the meet. She finished the 100-yard backstroke in 1:00.30, and raced to a time of 2:12.75 in the 200.
Freshman Marissa Watroba was equally as dominant as Battaglia in the breaststroke – winning both the 100 and 200. Freshman Hannah Graesser also chipped in a pair of wins, taking the top spot in both the 50 and 100-yard freestyles.
Finally, sophomore diver Audrey Mulhisen rounded out the women's winners taking first on both boards.
On the men's side, five different Griffs won events with freshman Wyatt Sintay, sophomore Spencer Bray and junior Eddie Quarantillo each winning a pair of events.
Sintay took first in both breaststrokes, finishing the 100 in 1:00.62 and racing to a time of 2:12.87 in the 200.
Bray won the 200 and 500-yard freestyles, swimming to a time of 4:43.12 in the 500 after opening the meet with a time of 1:45.67 in the 200.
Like Mulhisen, Quarantillo took the top spot on both boards once again for Canisius.
Senior Corey Petrie (1000-yard freestyle), junior Nick Sereday (50-yard freestyle) were the other Griffs to take home individual victories on Saturday.
The meet also served as Canisius' Senior Day, as Sam Hansen, Kelli Graber, Jake Kowalski, Joel Kowalski, Mary Hoak, Kelly Noll, Petrie, Jake Pisano, Adam Swift, Tyler Evans, Leah Villari, Andrew Edbauer and Schena were honored during the meet for their time as Griffs.
Canisius will now have to wait nearly a month before returning to the same pool to compete in the MAAC Championships on Feb. 13-15.


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Today we conclude the countdown of the greatest games of 2012-13 with the final entry. To catch up (or re-read) the earlier entries, click here for games 2-25.
No. 1: Carolina 4, Penn State 1 - Women's Soccer, Dec. 2, 2012
No. 1: Carolina 4, UCLA 3 - Women's Tennis, Feb. 11, 2013
No. 1: Carolina 13, Maryland 12 (3OT) - Women's Lacrosse, May 26, 2013
Let's get one thing out of the way up front. Is picking national championship wins for women's soccer, women's tennis and women's lacrosse taking the easy way out? Yes, it is. First-time titles for lacrosse and tennis and No. 22 for soccer were all won in very different ways, ways that perhaps make it impossible to deem one somehow better than another.
But these three national championship wins - all won in incredible, improbable and exhilarating fashion - stand together as the pinnacle of one of the finest athletic years in Carolina history.
Women's Soccer
Somehow women's soccer's 21st NCAA title and 22nd national championship was the most unlikely of the three when the respective tournaments began. Anson Dorrance's Tar Heels opened the NCAA Championship with a record of 10-5-2, and their 10 regular season wins were the fewest since 1979, the first year of the program.
Despite the record, a high RPI and a schedule that featured 12 games against opponents in the RPI top 30 saw UNC earn a No. 2 seed when the tournament draw was released. After an pair of comfortable home wins over Radford and Illinois, the next three rounds were anything but comfortable. Carolina needed penalties to oust Baylor, two overtimes and a pair of incredible goal-line clearances to survive BYU and another golden goal to beat Stanford to reach the national title game against Penn State.
Kealia Ohai opened the scoring after just 71 seconds with a howitzer off the underside of the crossbar, and for the second time in three games, the Tar Heels held an early lead.
But just as BYU had in the quarterfinals, Penn State equalized before halftime when Taylor Schram chipped over an on-rushing Adelaide Gay in the 19th minute.
Carolina regained the lead just moments after halftime and then extended its lead to 3-1 thanks to a pair of unlikely goalscorers. Hanna Gardner scored just her second goal of the season in the 46th minute on a thumping header off a corner kick before Satara Murray tallied her first and only goal of the year in the 64th minute. Murray's goal was nearly a second for Gardner, whose free header was saved off the line but only as far as Murray, who rifled the rebound into the roof of the Penn State goal.
Ranee Premji ended any lingering drama in the 75th minute when the senior scored on a one-time redirect from Crystal Dunn to make it 4-1.
Ohai was named most valuable offensive player and Murray grabbed defensive MVP honors, but it was an all-around effort for the Tar Heels, who had advanced to the final by the slimmest of margins before finishing the tournament with a dominant performance worthy of the high standards of the program.
Two months later it was women's tennis that would grab the championship spotlight.
Women's Tennis
The Intercollegiate Tennis Association is the governing body for much of the college tennis season before the NCAA takes over for the spring championship, and the ITA sponsors its own national tournament in February. The 16-team ITA National Team Indoor Championship annually features the country's top programs, 15 of which qualify through an on-campus tournament to join host school Virginia in Charlottesville.
For the 2013 edition, Carolina defeated Auburn and VCU in Chapel Hill to earn a spot as the No. 6 seed in the tournament. As a seeded team, the Tar Heels drew unseeded Texas A&M in the opening round, a match the Tar Heels swept, 4-0. Three months later, the Aggies would finish as national runners-up at the NCAA Championships.
After a thrilling 4-3 win over third-seeded USC in the quarterfinals and a comprehensive 4-0 sweep of second-seeded Duke in the semis, Carolina faced defending champion UCLA in the Monday morning final.
The Tar Heels dropped the doubles point as well as the first completed singles match, meaning that UNC would need to take four of the remaining five singles matches to win the title for the first time in school history.
Senior Gina Suarez-Malaguti started the comeback with perhaps the biggest win of her career, a 6-3, 6-4 win over No. 6 Robin Anderson at the top singles position. Tessa Lyons got her own straight-set win on court six, topping Courtney Dolehide 6-1, 6-4 to even the dual at 2. When Caroline Price finished off Catherine Harrison in three sets on court five, the momentum was squarely in the Tar Heel corner.
But Chanelle Van Nguyen closed out Lauren McHale on court four, meaning the match and the national title would be decided on court three between UCLA senior Pamela Montez and UNC freshman Whitney Kay.
Not only did the deciding match need three sets to find a winner, but it eventually took a tiebreak in the final set. Kay had been the hero of the quarterfinal win over USC with a clinching win, but a third-set tiebreak for a national championship was next level stuff, especially after seeing a match point go by the wayside at 5-4 in the third.
Amazingly, it didn't seem to faze the freshman.
Kay got out to a 4-2 lead at the first changeover and won a pair of points on her serve to get it to 6-3. Montez fought off the first two match points, but Kay hit a clean forehand winner to win the tiebreak, 7-5, and the match, 6-2, 4-6, 7-6.
The win vaulted Carolina to No. 1 in the ITA national poll, a spot it would occupy for the majority of the spring season. The Tar Heels claimed the ACC regular season title and the No. 2 seed in the NCAA Championship. While UCLA would end UNC's bid for a national championship double, the ITA National Indoor title raised the status of the Carolina women's tennis program to never-before-seen heights.
Women's Lacrosse
To seek a third national championship in an academic year might seem greedy, but that's exactly what the Carolina women's lacrosse team was after when the Tar Heels opened their season in February. After a season-opening loss to Florida, UNC rolled through the rest of its schedule - including a win over defending national champion Northwestern - save for a pair of losses to undefeated and No. 1 Maryland.
The Terps beat Carolina at Fetzer Field to claim the ACC crown in April, but a bigger prize was at stake for the third meeting that May evening in Villanova, Pa.
The Tar Heels topped Loyola and Virginia in the opening rounds of the NCAA tournament before thumping Northwestern 11-4 in the national semifinal to set up the grudge match with Maryland. The Terps entered the title game with a perfect record of 22-0, and only Carolina in the regular season and Syracuse in the final four had even come close to beating them.
What came next was a Memorial Day weekend classic that captivated Carolina fans around the country, even those that didn't realize just yet that they were women's lacrosse fans.
The timing of the game at 8 p.m. on Sunday night during the holiday weekend and its spot in front of a national audience on ESPNU created a perfect storm of fan interest. Twitter was alive with Tar Heel fans, many of whom had never seen a women's lacrosse game before, rooting on their new favorite team.
Carolina rushed out of the locker room with all the momentum as Brittney Coppa scored twice in a span of 1:07 and the Tar Heels grabbed a 3-0 lead within five minutes. Aly Messinger completed a first-half hat trick seven minutes later and UNC maintained a three-goal advantage for most of the period.
The start of the second half was an ugly flashback to the ACC title game when Maryland went on a 7-1 run to blow open a close game. Led by Tewaaraton Award winner Katie Schwarzmann, the Terps scored five straight goals to take an 11-9 lead with less than 20 minutes remaining.
But unlike in that ACC Championship game, Carolina weathered the storm and nosed back in front. After Coppa's unassisted goal made it 11-10, Kara Cannizzaro scored a pair of goals - the second coming on a free position shot - to push the Tar Heels ahead, 12-11.
Maryland tied it through Alex Aust with four minutes remaining, and the NCAA title would be decided in overtime.
Three overtimes to be precise.
After a pair of scoreless overtime periods, both teams had chances to win it in the third extra stanza. A Tar Heel foul in the opening moments of the third overtime put Maryland in behind the Carolina defense, but freshman goalkeeper Megan Ward stoned Brooke Griffin from point blank range and started a transition opportunity the other way.
Coppa weaved her way through the Maryland defense, carrying the ball more than 50 yards down the middle of the field before finding Sammy Jo Tracy, who fired a low, hard shot past Maryland's Kasey Howard to win it. As the Tar Heels rushed to mob Tracy, officials conducted a lengthy stick check before finally confirming the goal as good and giving Carolina its first national championship in women's lacrosse.
Ward's save and Tracy's goal provided the perfect exclamation point to a game that won Carolina and the sport of women's lacrosse a lot of new fans.
Previous Entries
No. 2: Carolina 43, NC State 35 - Football, Oct. 27, 2012
No. 3: Carolina 12, FAU 11 (13 inn.) - Baseball, June 3-4, 2013
No. 4: Carolina 18, Duke 17 - Men's Lacrosse, April 26, 2013
No. 5: Carolina 2, NC State 1 (18 inn.) - Baseball, May 25-26, 2013
No. 6: Carolina 2, BYU 1 (2OT) - Women's Soccer, Nov. 23, 2012
No. 7: Carolina 76, NC State 65 - Men's Basketball, Feb. 23, 2013
No. 8: Carolina 64, Miami 62 - Women's Basketball, Jan. 27, 2013
No. 9: Carolina 6, Syracuse 1 - Field Hockey, Nov. 16, 2012
No. 10: Carolina 1, Stanford 0 (OT) - Women's Soccer, Nov. 30, 2012
No. 11: Carolina 3, Florida State 1 - Volleyball, Nov. 3, 2012
No. 12: Carolina 3, Wisconsin 2 (8 inn.) - Softball, May 16, 2013
No. 13: Carolina 2, Duke 1 (OT) - Men's Soccer, Sept. 28, 2012
No. 14: Carolina 79, Maryland 76 - Men's Basketball, March 16, 2013
No. 15: Carolina 10, Maryland 8 - Men's Lacrosse, March 23, 2013
No. 16: Carolina 72, Maryland 65 - Women's Basketball, March 9, 2013
No. 17: Carolina 4, Maryland 3 (OT) - Field Hockey, Oct. 20, 2012
No. 18: Carolina 11, Northwestern 8 - Women's Lacrosse, Feb. 22, 2013
No. 19: Carolina 4, USC 3 - Women's Tennis, Feb. 9, 2013
No. 20: Carolina 3, California 1 - Volleyball, Nov. 29, 2012
No. 21: Carolina 11, Johns Hopkins 10 (OT), Men's Lacrosse, March 30, 2013
No. 22: Carolina 1, Fairleigh Dickinson 0 (OT) - Men's Soccer, Nov. 25, 2012
No. 23: Peacock Smashes NCAA Record - Swimming and Diving, Dec. 2, 2012
No. 24: UNC's Big Day at ACCs - Track and Field, April 19, 2013
No. 25: Carolina 30, NC State 6 - Wrestling, Feb. 1, 2013


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Police confirmed the suspect involved in a standoff at a Radcliff apartment building on Seminole Road has died and the situation is stable. Because Radcliff police were involved in the fatal shooting, Kentucky State Police will lead the investigation.
It is unknown what caused the man's death. Police still are on the scene at Foxwood Apartments at 630 Seminole Road at the corner of North Woodland Drive.
The apartment building and surrounding residences were evacuated, Shumate said.
Radcliff police had gone to the apartment to question the occupant about a burglary in the same eight-unit complex. The man reportedly told police that he need to put on shoes. He grabbed a weapon and fired at officers, police said.
Police Chief Jeff Cross said officers returned fire. One officer was struck in the ankle by a bullet, Cross said, but the slug did not penetrate his boot.
Police believe the suspect was the only person inside the apartment, he said.
Officers from Vine Grove, Radcliff, Kentucky State Police are on scene as are Radcliff Fire Department and Hardin County EMS.
For details, see Thursday's print edition of The News-Enterprise.
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The department offers four undergraduate English majors and six minors. The majors are in English, English/graduate-bound, English secondary education and writing. The six minors offered are in writing, journalism, journalism education, film studies, English and English education. The department also participates in the interdisciplinary major in liberal arts and sciences, as well as the gender studies and Native American studies minors.
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The department operates the Writing Center in the Learning Resources Center. This facility is open daily to help all students, whether or not they are enrolled in writing courses. This assistance is free to NMU students.
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A BART spokesman said Thursday that management is putting a new comprehensive proposal on the bargaining table in hopes of reaching an agreement with the transit agency's labor unions before their contracts expire Sunday night.
Read the full story here Web Link posted Thursday, June 27, 2013, 1:05 PM
Town Square
BART management presents new proposal to labor unions
Original post made on Jun 28, 2013
Like this commentPosted by Eva Jamison
a resident of San Ramon
on Jun 28, 2013 at 8:27 am
Fire them all and hire people without the lazy attitude. I ride BART often and the sullen no help for you, Whitey, is displayed often.