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Copyright on chess moves - shadows on the wall?
Last week, ChessBase was apparently 'forced to cease Internet broadcasting of the Topalov-Kamsky match'. As we noted in our report on the first match game, live broadcasting of the chess moves in this match without permission was prohibited by the Bulgarian Chess Federation (although they didn't seem to have a problem with Chessdom's, Crestbook's, ICC's and TWIC's live coverage). This has led to heated discussions on this site. The key question here is: can you copyright a chess move at all?
The above quoted article on the official match site doesn't address this question: it merely gives an overview of the actions which were taken by the lawyers of the parties involved. It ends with a quote from the president of the BCF, Stefan Sergiev:
This is a precedent in the world of chess and we are grateful to attorney Polzin for his assistance. This case will serve as a lesson to everybody who violates the copyright law.
Well, perhaps, but without concrete arguments (instead of words of barely concealed triumph) it all remains very mysterious. And it's such an interesting question! You can look at it from a legal point of view, from a philosophical point of view and from a historicial point of view. The very fact that it has been debated since the rise of professional chess (over 150 years ago) as this thorough overview by Edward Winter shows, indicates the complexity of the question. You should really just read the whole piece yourself, but let me just quote what Capablanca had to say about the matter:
A chess game, from its very nature and the manner of its production, must be the joint property of the two persons producing it ... You can charge what you like for the publication of the games in any form you may deem to your advantage. But, unfortunately, that is a common privilege, of which anyone may take advantage.
Capablanca's opinion raises the question what this 'very nature' of a chess game is, exactly. Basically, a chess move seems to be information. But what kind of information? That's a philosophical question, and it has obvious consequences for copyright issues. I like Macauley Peterson's definition of moves becoming 'factual events in the world', but I don't think it's so easy to say that because of this, there can't be copyright on them. In fact, there's a whole branch of copyright theory that deals with this question. To quote the Wikipedia article:
There are many other philosophical questions which arise in the jurisprudence of copyright. They include such problems as determining when one work is "derived" from another, or deciding when information has been placed in a "tangible" or "material" form.
This seems to go to the heart of the matter. What is a chess move, apart from a physical act ('event') by one player moving pieces on a board? Is it a 'thing'? A thought? Does it exist somewhere in time or space? When I think of a chess move in Amsterdam (say 1.e4), is it somehow different from Topalov thinking that same move in Sofia? Does it change by him actually playing that move? Anyway, aren't all thoughts free?
From a legal point of view, I haven't been able to find any laws or jurisprudence on the this matter, even though many commenters have said that there are certainly laws that deal with this question. But what laws exactly? In the Topalov-Kamsky case, are we dealing with Bulgarian law? With EU regulations? Or, in ChessBase's case, even with German law (as the article on the match site seems to imply)? Things are, in my view, complicated by the fact that we're dealing with broadcasts on the internet: in other words, in a global, virtual environment.
The whole copyright discussion has changed heavily since the rise of the Internet. A very interesting speech (and following discussion) by Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software or GNU Project. which he held at MIT some years ago, deals in a fundamental way with many of the issues of copyright and the new virtual world. His point of view, too, has many shades of grey, as the following excerpt shows:
[I]nstead of increasing copyright powers, we have to pull them back so as to give the general public a certain domain of freedom where they can make use of the benefits of digital technology, make use of their computer networks. But how far should that go? That's an interesting question because I don't think we should necessarily abolish copyright totally. The idea of trading some freedoms for more progress might still be an advantageous trade at a certain level, even if traditional copyright gives up too much freedom. But in order to think about this intelligently, the first thing we have to recognize is, there's no reason to make it totally uniform. There's no reason to insist on making the same deal for all kinds of work.
The discussion about the difference between a textual representation of a move (or a game) and the actual live broadcast of the game on, for instance, Playchess or ICC (or indeed here on ChessVibes), reminds me a bit of Plato's Theory of Forms and his famous Allegory of the Cave: isn't a chess broadcast merely a 'shadowy projection' of the Idea of a chess game? And isn't it silly to worry about these projections which are, after all, merely a weak reflection of the Truth?
Engraving of Plato's Cave, 1604
Of course, the matter will be (and has been) discussed over and over again on the internet and beyond. We have actually mentioned it before on ChessVibes as a commentary on the popular Monroi gadget. I do not want to formulate a definite opinion (yet). I've just tried to collect some links throwing (I hope) various lights on the matter. Have a look at them. I hope you will agree with me that, really, things are never that simple.
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8 years 3 months ago
I for one think that copyrighting chess games is ridiculous. Who would own the rights to 1.e4? Would I owe Kasparov a royalty if I play the Catalan?
I do however take issue with live coverage ... this aides electronic cheating to have a game reproduced as it occurs. To me Chess isn't a spectator sport by nature ... I'd just assume analyze a championship game a week later as speculate on moves as they are being made. The result is the same either way = improvement in the observer.
I was personally not aware that Chessbase was barred from broadcasting (mostly becuase I don't follow the broadcasts). I did link to the chessdom live coverage on the chessvin.com blog and I can't help but wonder why other services were allowed to broadcast and chessbase was stopped. It sounds like a corporate war going on behind the scenes ... those in the chess information business have seen it coming since Chessdom launched.
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8 years 3 months ago
The German chess federation came to the conclusion that there is no copyright on chess moves, but that has not been confirmed by any court in any way yet as far as I know.
If you can read German:
Robert H?ºbner once tried to avoid publication of his games in a tournament. That was the (main) reason for the above expertise.
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I happen to be a lawyer and I can only confirm that, from the legal point of view, we're dealing with highly complex problems. I think the main problem is that nobody knows how the courts would decide - and this is what really matters, after all. Somehow it's a pity that Chessbase didn't dare to engage in a lawsuit - at least this would have led to a certain clarification.
By the way, I would like to point out an important twist at the end of that German article: While the authors come to the conclusion that there is no copyright on chess moves, they also say that this doesn't necessarily mean that anybody can commercially exploit chess games played by others. To put it more clearly: you can publish chess games just for the information of people, but as soon as you want to make money with them, things become tricky.
Once again, this is just the opinion of the two authors. As they point out themselves, it's the judges' opinion that really matters.
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8 years 3 months ago
I really think the main problem here lies in that a chess move is not really seperated from the game of chess...the entire game, that is. If someone held the copyright to the game of chess, they would also own every position that could arise, and perhaps more, because the "idea" of the game, the rules, would be copyrighted. It just seems weird to me that someone could own a move within such a set of rules, without owning the rules themselves. (ok, maybe "the world" is actually, in a sense, a set of rules. so its a question of complexity and creativity. But the rules of chess arent that complex, are they?)
you could also look at the practical consequences. If you can own a chess position/game, why wouldnt you be able to charge for everyone else to use it? That is the whole point with copyright...I own this, you pay me or dont use it.
Maybe they arent trying to copyright positions or games though, maybe they are trying to claim they own the transmission of the moves? I have no idea if it would be possible in court, but it sounds better than trying to copyright a position or a whole game. Of course, then anyone who was watching the game and just told the moves to chessbase would get that problem out of the way...so it seems futile.
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8 years 3 months ago
I do not think the main problem in Topalov vs. Kamsky match lies in the chess moves itself. The main problem is that Chessbase took the moves from official site and "forwarded" them to the playchess. I think this is the main problem. It would be perfectly OK if Chessbase had it's own staff in Sofia who would transmit the moves to playchess. But they didn't. It's not the chess moves that are the problem. The problem is that chessbase hijacked the transmission without asking.
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8 years 3 months ago
This matter is complex, that's true. But chess should (i really believe, it should) work as the television works. There is a copyright in every program they make, and the same should happen in chess. Every game (and every move inside of a game) is a production of the players which are playing the game. When the circumstances gets to a situation where the games are officialy transmitted in a page, that page can decide who can also transmit the game, and so on: the moves.
Of course: television is right outside the little box. You can watch every program on internet. Where are the rules? I'm not sure. The internet matter is so complex that everything can be in one way or another. But, to conclude my thoughts. If the official page doesn't want to give the permission to some page (in this case, Chessbase) to make a live transmission, they are in his right. Why not?
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8 years 3 months ago
Poor Plato must have rolled in his grave...
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8 years 3 months ago
As far as I know, there is some jurisprudence, though it remains to be seen how applicable it is in the current situation. There has been a court case regarding the live publication of basketball scores in het USA. The conclusion was copyright law didn't apply, so the broadcasting continued freely. In the the earlier discussion of the chess case, it was noted by someone that the lawyers of the organisation of the Kramnik-Kasparov match deemed the USA basketball ruling applicable in the chess situation. Therefor, they advised against trying and enforce copyright on the moves played in that match.
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What I find really odd is not broadcasting games on the internet, but how Chessbase profits from the collective cretive efforts of thousands of chessplayers. In essence, I think they are making good bussiness out of something they don't properly "own".
It's fine they get money for Fritz, Chessbase and Playchess. That's fair busines, they created that product.
But asking money for merely compiling millions of games produced with a lot of effort and creativity by chessplayers? = "Megabase"
I cannot think of an Editorial company publishing the entire collection of Gabriel Garcia Marquez without paying him for the rights.
Hereby, I propose that Chessbase pays a heavy fee to the Professional Chess Association (PCA) for publishing games from professional chessplayers. The money thus collected by the PCA may serve well to those GMs who are lacking money for an expensive medical tramnet, for instance.
Why not?
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Sorry, I was watching TV as I wrote my posting, so I have corrected some typos now:
What I find really odd is not broadcasting games on the internet, but how Chessbase profits from the collective creative efforts of thousands of chessplayers. In essence, I think they are making good bussiness out of something they don't properly "own".
It's fine they get money for Fritz, Chessbase and Playchess. That's fair busines, they created those products.
But asking money for merely compiling millions of games produced with a lot of effort and creativity by chessplayers? = "Megabase"
I cannot think of an Editorial company publishing the entire collection of Gabriel Garcia Marquez without paying him for the rights.
Hereby, I propose that Chessbase pays a heavy fee to the Professional Chess Association (PCA) for publishing games from professional chessplayers. The money thus collected by the PCA may serve well to those GMs who are lacking money for an expensive medical treatment, for instance.
Why not?
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Further to my previous posting, the PCA may try to raise a pre-tournament contract to be signed for all those players who don't want their games going to "Megabase" without paying to the PCA.
I guess any law student could raise a valid contract accounting for this.
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Interesting stuff, supergrobi, but it does raise the question why ChessBase stopped the transmission. After all, they have at least the German Chess Federation backing them...
By the way, let's keep the topic straight. This is not about ChessBase being the bad guys for whatever reasons - it could have happened to ChessVibes or ICC or any other chess site displaying the moves live as well.
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And finally, if Chessbase doesn't agree to pay, fine, let them go to nobody's land.
Let's guess the PCA is able to develop a chess program similar to Chessbase, say, "PCAbase", including all the recent tournament games published in them. In a few months PCAbase will be up-to-date and Megabase something from the distant past.
I for one would be more than happy to pay some money I know will go back to the chess masters who "actually created" the moves; rather than fueling a dirty busines like "Megabase"...
Again, why not?
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8 years 3 months ago
I suspect that the Bulgarian Chess Federation took issue with the moves being relayed 'live' and not with the issue of copyrighting the moves, etc. They put up the entire games on their website after the game, and didn't object to any analysis of the moves on any site, to my knowledge.
There seems to be a creeping attempt to monetise the immense popularity of chess on the web: the Foidos 'experiment' is a case in point. That's the real debate, if you ask me.
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Sorry, I messed up the acronysms.
I meant the "Assocation of Chess Professionals (ACP), not the dead "PCA" Kasparov/Short affair from the nineties...
LOL... Of course, the above arguments remain the same!
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@GuidedByVoices: When Chessbase charges money for its MegaBase it is not about copyright, it's about the work they did to compile the database. They don't own the games, nobody does, so they're free to compile them and charge money for their effort. Nobody forces you to buy it.
@me: I hope you realize that NOONE has staff at a tournament to relay the moves, everybody uses the official relayer. If using the moves of the official website is hijacking, then ICC, Chessdom, TWIC and Chessvibes are all guilty as well. In case the Bulgarians wanted to charge for the rights it was a stupid idea to broadcast the moves on the internet for free, because copying off the relay is legal. Imagine a radio reporter at a football match and somebody who listens to him and has a live blog about the events of the game.
For me the reasons why there can't be a copyright in chess is relatively simple.
1) Chess moves are events in the real world, the work done by the players causes them to make these moves, but is not identical with the moves (How often have we calculated completely irrelevant variations?).
2) If there was copyright on chess moves no chessgame could be played twice without breaking the law, because playing the copyrighted moves would mean a reproduction of the original game. The thought that 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.e6 fxe6 9.Ng5 Bxd4 10.Nxe6 Bxb5 11.Nxd8 Bf2+ 12.Kd2 Be3+ would be illegal is nice (no known drawing lines without a fine :) ), but in every other cases it would be horrible. Say two amateurs play a game and just by chance they copied a game between two GMs. Poor amateurs.
I am somewhat surprised and relieved to find my arguments in the document by the German federation.
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@guitarspider. How does the German article actually define a chess move? (I tried to find it, but couldn't.) Is it only a (generic) piece of information, regardless of when and where it was played, or do they consider it fixed in space and time? If they did, it would make the second argument invalid in my opinion.
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It depends if chess is considered a form of Art. Then the creation of the chess game can certainly be copyrighted. Similar to the creation of a painting or a music concerto.
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8 years 3 months ago
I agree that from an objective point of view, it is not at all trivial. I am even inclined to agree with Capablance (compare it to a piece of art, or an article, short story, novel etc).
HOWEVER: from a practical point of view it just would not work, especially in todays world. It would quite litterally be impossible to enforce. And even if it would be possible to enforce: suddenly all access to chess games would cease (unless we pay for it), I don't think that would be very benifical for chess as a whole.
Chess players can make money from their games under the current situation; example: Fire on Board: Shirov's Best Games.
As to chessbase ceasing broadcasting the games: they are a business. My guess is they did not think it was worth it taking this to court or creating some sort of sandal, Team Topailov sure know how to do that.
(And unless an ICC insider tells differently: I'm pretty sure they did not pay the organizers. The organizers don't like chessbase and decided they could not transmit the moves. They just pretended ICC and all the others did not exist, maybe because ICC has been threatened in the past and ignored it.)
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3 years 2 months ago
I do not create a leave a response, however after reading a few off the responses on Add new coomment |
ChessVibes. I actually do have a couple of questions for you if you don'tmind.Could it be ust me or do a few
of these comments come across like they are coming from brain drad visitors?
:-P And, iff you are writing at additional online social sites, I would likke
to keep up with you. Would you post a list of the complete uls of yur
shared sites like your Facebook page, twitter feed, or linkedin
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As far as I am aware the article doesn't really define a chess move, but page 1 b) says what I said in 1) with more words and sophistication. It seems to me that they think a chess move is not fixed in time and space (p3, case 4 for example). 2) is more what I fear could happen with copyright. The thing is there is the problem game vs moves. If you play book variations, how can you possibly have a copyright? But if the moves are protected, someone has the copyright and you would be breaking it, because someone already played the variation. Is it then possible that the game you play is partly a breach of copyright and you have the copyright after you get out of book? If you play a variation you found in a book, shouldn't the author of the article (or his engine???) have the copyright? This too would mean you are violating the copyright by playing the moves. These practical problems are huge in my opinion. I think they had the same concerns, because they mention a lot of similar points in their article, although they talk more about abstract law than the consequences for the players. It is interpretation on my part, but I think it's justified.
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8 years 3 months ago
Everyone has an opinion....
Mine is that that a recording of the game (camera on the players making the moves, press conferences, etc.) is a "broadcast." The recorded moves of a game are not. All "relayers" (ICC, Chessbase, TWIC etc). do is report facts of a game in real time.
Philosophical considerations aside, a move in a scoresheet describes an event that happened at a particular point in time by a particular person. It is the record of a fact - or a series of facts in the case of a whole game. It is not the event itself, nor a 'recording' of the event itself.
I think it is incorrect to say the live relay of moves is a "broadcast."
In US law this would be akin to reporting the box score of a baseball game. As noted above, that's been found to be legal without violating any copyright. Describe that Player A did thus-and-such (or that Team A did this, Team B did that, etc.) and it is no copyright violation in the US - even when transmitted in real time.
Chess simply seems to be one (of apparently very few) recreations where the record of facts has historically seemed to have more intrinsic value than seeing the event itself. But that shouldn't mean that a scoresheet suddenly gets 'better' copyright privilege than the equivalent record in other sports.
Just my take on it.
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8 years 3 months ago
Of course it's not a question of copyright of moves. AT ALL!
What a biased aproach!
And in chess the moves are almost all there is about a chess event, especialy for remote public.
Much more than images or sounds, the moves matters a lot.
Imagine a sport event, say basket. If I organize it, I may turn it public by open the doors of the place, or even allow the press to broadcast it live (sound and/or images).
And everybody finds it natural that, even calling it a public event, I´m entitled to charge rights for those broadcastings in real time (not to mention the entrance fees!). And I can make money on it, because I'm the one who organizes it, and because there is lots of interest on this event I'm organizing.
And nobody talks about how ridiculous is "trying to copyright ones and zeros in pixels and in digitalized sound".
The question is not so simple, so please, dont throw shadows to our eyes! Plato must be revolving in the grave, really!
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@me (and others) "The problem is that chessbase hijacked the transmission without asking" - apart from the fact that this is very hard to prove, I don't really see what the exact difference is between hijacking a move from a site and hijacking it from the live event itself. In both cases, the information stays the same, no? (Would it have made a difference if someone looked at the official live transmission, learned the moves by heart, and then reproduced them from his own memory on another site?)
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8 years 3 months ago
On a similar point to guitarspider, if copying of broadcasts are made illegal, what is stopping two amateurs, say with nicknames "Topolav and Kamskii" playing an identical game, broadcast for free with identical clock times, just happening to correspond with the exact game being broadcast? The idea that you can copyright a chess move at a given time seems nonsensical.
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Indeed, Patzerboy, this is what I tried to indicate with the question "When I think of a chess move in Amsterdam (say 1.e4), is it somehow different from Topalov thinking that same move in Sofia?". It's a crucial point, and as I understand it, the article on the German page also doesn't have an answer to it.
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A professional chess game (ie, worth broadcasting it live or compiling it into a games database) is the joint creative effort of two players at their work. Regarding his own games, an active chess master may take money home by winning a high spot on a given tournament or by commenting his games to be published in a chess magazine or book. However, in the name of fairness, whenever somebody else is making money out of his games, he should be paid back.
I do not think we can easily work out how to manage internet live broadcasting, because I think Internet is a black box of cut & paste in itself, ill-regulated if at all.
My concern is products such as "Megabase". Other than an amateur chess player, I am a productive scientist. In this context, I wouldn't be happy if a company decides to "compile" my papers and sell them to interested competition. Nobody can, however, because once I submit the reviewed, final version of any of my papers, I sign a copyright contract directly with the editorial running the journal publishing my work. It's a 1-2 pages standard contract.
In the context of professional chess games, I easily envisage here a GM signing a copyright contract with the ACP when entering a tournament (ACP is the natural body caring about his well-being). How the ACP then gives raise to a coherent games base to be sold worldwide is of course another issue. But then, back to the point, some money should go back to the GMs, IMs, FMs an so on producing the actual games contained in the ACP database. To make it even more atractive, the chess masters might be asked to comment 10-25% of their games contained in the ACP database. Of course, this doesn't mean taking the professional games out of circulation. You could still go to TWIC or other websites to download the games or, alternatively, follow the games live on the internet. What the proposed ACP database would give you is comprehensiveness and technical annotations (ie, an atractive commercial product).
Other than the chess and science fields, I would switch to music. I cannot imagine someone "compiling" all songs ever created by the rock band Iron Maiden (200+). It would be prohibited by copyright laws, only because the band members signed a contract of reproduction/distribution...
The question here is, can the ACP raise such sort of contracts to protect the working rights of the professional chess players? I think the answer to this question is yes, but the idea needs to be embraced forcefully.
From a different point of view, what a professional chess player does on daily bases is to struggle in a highly competitive field to bring bread to the table, like in any other profession. What he creates and we so freely call a "chess GM game" is the historically discrete final outcome of many years of 4-10 hours hard work a day... To give raise to any of his games, the GM had to pay for everything, trainer, magazines, books, software, flight tickets to distant playing venues, hotel acommodation and so on and so forth... Why should a company like Chessbase make use of any professional chess game at all based on the poor claim thay are "merely compiling"... I cannot help but feel that Friedel has been laughing out loud about the lack of regulation in the creative field of professional chess... Get the point?
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GuidedByVoices, one difference between music and books or articles is that chess games have two different 'authors' all the time. You propose GMs sign a copyright contract: fine, but what about the opponents? Do they sign too? What if the opponent isn't a GM but some unknown amateur player? Does the amateur still have rights to his own game or is this only for the GM? What if the amateur doesn't care about copyright and the GM does - who settles the case? So you see, the situation is much more complicated here.
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8 years 3 months ago
@GuidedByVoices: The copyright agreement you sign with a scientific journal is a transfer of copyright. You give them the copyright of the article that took you months of hard work, and they don't give you a penny for it. They actually make money with compilations of such articles (journals, proceedings, etc). I'm not saying it's wrong, most scientists make their articles available for free on preprint servers anyway (like arxiv.org). So my question is: if you're not getting any royalties for your scientific articles, why should chess players get some for their games? (and if you ask me, the same question applies to musicians and their music).
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I do not get your point Johny.
First, a rock band or a phylarmonic orchestra are usually more than 2 people. Many books display more than one author. Anyway, to the point:
(1) Copyright contract for chess players are not to be signed on a game by game basis, but in the context of the whole tournament. I would rather think of signing the contract before round 1 starts. If an amateur player does not sign, fine, let's invite another.
(2) I truly believe that we, chess players, are taken too far away by the particular features of our game. I cannot think of any other sport, scientific brand or artistic field where "amateurs" rule over "masters"... Amateurs play for fun, professionals do it for money.
(3) It seems to me that a refusal from an amateur player to make living standard of a chess master a tiny bit better is not ethically or even morally right. We should always strive to get things done the right way. If something does not hurt me but may help someone else, how can I walk away? Why on Earth would I do something like that?
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Yeah a band or an orchestra has maybe more than one or two people, but it's usually the same people, with the same interests - not different ones all the time, as in chess.
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I did not say I make money out of my papers. My point is that in the science field, you decide to what journal you transfer your copyrights and the mechanism is fairly straightforward. It could be done in chess as well [from chess master to the ACP], why not?
My whole point is that the money collected by the "commercial ACP gamebase" may serve well, for instance, to those GMs who are lacking money for an expensive medical treatment. Or they could share the earnings once a year. The knot of this discussion is that money generated by the work of the chess master should go straight back to the chess master's pocket, not to Friedel's one...
Back to the scientifical publication system, which is also highly questionable because the Journals are selling knowledge which may impinge on humankind well-being and health issues, at least there I can chose where to publish my work, can't I? In chess, all the money goes smoothly into Friedel's pocket. Furthermore, at variance of the strange situation of the chess masters, I can even chose whether my papers get published or not! Indeed, I can decide not to submit my work or, alternatively, I can delay publication for strategic reasons...
Chess masters should not lack control of their creative efforts. It's theIr work. They should have (human!) rights. I have always felt that chess GMs have been not particularly lucky regarding their rights as really hard-workers. I have a couple of GM friends who just quitted competitive chess because it's extremely hard to earn enough money for a decent life... It also comes to mind the case of talented and strong GMs like Picket, Sadler and others...
Let's make chess a decent profession!
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A tournament game is not only an effort of 2 players, it's also an effort of the organizer who payed the room for the game etc. Players just do their job, and if they are good enough they get payed well for that by the organizer. If somebody should get some money for publishing the game, it would be the organizer. GuidedByVoices, try to apply your thoughts about ACP to other sports, you might find them odd.
Regarding permission about live broadcast: Talking about moves and technical details how the game is beeing broadcasted is not that much relevant. Question is whether somebody is making some profit from broadcasting games without a permission. Again - compare it with other sports, nobody serious would come to a playing hall with hidden camera in order to do live broadcast of the game.
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The discussion was also picked up on the blog Marginal Revolution.
It's a thoughtful post, and the author makes a sensible point noting that "transferring income to chess players is not a goal per se."
It seems to me this is also what Stallman points out in the article I mentioned. Why would it be a good idea to have a copyright on chess moves (or games) anyway? Who benefits, the public or the players?
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To Martas:
Your thought "Players just do their job, and if they are good enough they get payed well for that by the organizer" might apply for 2700+ players who sometimes take home appeareance fees and have got sponsors (Leko, Anand, Topalov, etc). Now, what about the remaining 95-99% GMs, IMs and FMs who are 2699 and below. How does your thought apply in those gruelling Swiss Tournaments where only a few masters are lucky enough to take away the money? Is there any chess master out there winning several strong open tournaments yearly, thus making any significant money?
Mentioning the ACP so much in my previous posts makes perfect sense, because, at variance of other sports, ACP is made up by chess masters who work for their fellow chess masters...
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8 years 3 months ago
I agree with xtra: I think a chess move can't be copyrighted because all the possible moves exist since chess itself exist. Saying "exist", I mean who can be played. The only one who could own a copyright would be the inventor of chess, so it doesn't really help us: ) You can't invent a move or a novelty: if a move is called a novelty it's just because nobody played it before but the player who played it didn't invent it. It's not like a book, for instance. In this case, the writer creates something which was not existing before. In chess we know that there is a finished number (ok very big but finished) of game which are possible. I think there is nothing to find, to discover, a chess game is just a choice of a game between thousands and thousands (and more) possible games....
But I think it's true that the problem during Toplav-Kamsky match was not about the copyright of a chess move but only about the live broadcasting.
PS: Sorry for my english :)
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To arne moll:
Exactly the point. But the other way around: mention one, only one other sport where you can see all the games ever played for free or, alternatively, giving the money to an intermediary (Friedel) instead of giving any money to the players?
A professional football player takes money home, regarless he win, draw or even lose. Professional chess players must win about 75% of the points to get a chance to win any money... It's a cruel profession, can you realise that, can't you?
Finally getting there!
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Then I would not give an exceptional novelist the Nobel prize, because the alphabet and grammar rules where already there. Any human creation is finite and belongs to a context.
How many games can you play along your entire life? The more games you play, the closer you get to GM level skill?
GMs must be seen as artists... When they look at the chess board, they see something completely different from weaker players. Taking back your example of the book, my younger son is already able to write, but I wouldn't pay him to read his texts...
We are suposse to pay those who excel at chess...
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"Now, what about the remaining 95-99% GMs, IMs and FMs who are 2699 and below. How does your thought apply in those gruelling Swiss Tournaments where only a few masters are lucky enough to take away the money?"
You act like we should pity them. It's not like anybody forces them to play in those tournaments, you know...
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Let me just state that I'm stunned that this discussion continues to the present day. Taking it point by point:
First of all, it is 100% clear that if anyone owns copyright to the game, that it is *neither* the organizers nor sponsors of an event, but the players. Therefore the request from the Bulgarian Chess Federation is meaningless unless it comes from both Kamsky and Topalov.
Second, it is also clear that *both* players own the copyright to a game, if such a concept existed. This would mean that every game of chess you play creates a legal contract between the two players. It is this fact alone that makes the copyright issue completely untenable.
Third, I'm stunned at the hate Mega Database is getting. First of all, 62,000 games are annotated by players who were paid for those annotations. Second, you have 4,000,000 (approximately) games, so in this case, there are 8,000,000 copyright holders. Let's say that ChessBase decides to pay the full proceeds to the copyright holders after every sale of Mega 2009:
Mega 2009 sells for 149,90 €
8,000,000 games
Each copyright holder gets 0,0000187375 € per game
Wow. First of all, let's talk about the stupidity of ChessBase having to send out 280,000 checks, but let's also talk about how worthless the money would be! I personally have 130 games in MegaBase, so that's a whopping 0,002435875 € for me. Even a guy like Sveshnikov with almost 2,000 games would only be getting 0,036238325 €.
So let's see, if there *IS* copyright in chess games it is:
- Worthless
- Unenforceable
And if it *was* enforceable, chess is dead. No more software, books, magazines, bulletins, or anything.
Have fun, guys, but this argument was logically killed ages ago.
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8 years 3 months ago
Dear GuidedByVoices,
I don't know how many fellow bloggers will be able to follow ... but as I am a publishing scientist myself, I disagree with part of your posts starting today 12:20PM:
In my opinion, a finalized peer-reviewed scientific paper is comparable to an _annotated_ game. Beyond the results it contains at least discussion and conclusions, maybe also suggestions for future research. Discussion includes statistical treatment of data, comparisons with earlier studies, and interpretation of results. In a chessic context, this is equivalent to earlier games in the same opening (or, as recently here on Chessvibes, similar rook endings) and variations. "Suggestions for future research" may be something as "21.-Rc7? loses, maybe 21.-Ne4!? can hold the draw"; conclusions may be "this line of the King's Indian is under a cloud (or even losing by force)".
And any GM may keep things partly secret, not giving all of his opening analysis because he may still want to play the same line in the future - just as you and I can keep things secret for the next publication on the same topic ... .
The 'raw' moves are then comparable to the raw analytical (or experimental) data. These are (or should be) freely available to colleagues after publication. No publisher will prohibit us from doing so, quite a few actually encourage (or even force) authors to put them in a publicly available database.
And, still in a scientific context, databases or opening books are comparable to review articles or textbooks. Here the author does the additional job of compiling and synthesizing data from numerous sources, and he _may_ even be paid for it.
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GuidedByVoices - again, have a look at other sports. If you play whatever at lower level, you have to win some prize money in order to get some money out of your playing. You would never get money because somebody published your game or showed the nicest moment from some of your games.
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LOL John F. Hard to disagree with that. Anyway, isn't Chessbase also offering all those games online for free on chesslive.de?
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Yes, Arne, but remember, the unannotated database is 49,99 €. Therefore, the market states that the 62,000 annotated games are worth 2.5x what the 4,000,000+ unannotated games are.
And I think we can all agree that the annotations have copyright protection!
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Discussion in 'April 2009' started by max, Apr 11, 2009.
Great recap on Kwame, thanks.
Yup, hard not to wonder what could have been if they had a defensive system in place (or of any kind) and they stuck with Kwame the whole time. He's another victim of Amir's potential.
Kwame is in the same boat as Amir - victims of a coach thinking that playing a pair of 34 year old players Sheed and Dyess as much as possible is a good idea. Lets also not forget about the 10 or so games wasted where Prince played PF.
Meaningless game. Still watched it. Why not. Even in this meaningless game, Curry does not try anything different at small forward. Instead, he played Herrmann just under 40 minutes, all at small forward. Herrmann scored double digits, on very bad shooting, and gave up around 20 points for lack of defensive rotation and transition D. As a team, we were constantly found lacking in defensive rotation. nd we lost by the way, not that it matters. Sheed did play the first nine minutes. Just so I can write the following: It does not work to pair up two centers. Not in this league. Almost no team plays two dominant scoring centers, so you don't need to play two centers to guard them. The little bit of time that Herrmann was not playing, and Sheed and Kwame were not paired up, we played small ball. Bynum and Stuckey as the guards and Afflalo at small forward. This does not work none too well. Defensively, we had problems the whole game. Problems stemming directly from the choices Curry made of who to put out on the floor. Nothing at all different from the last few games. Its been four games now since Curry coached to win a game. The playoffs are about to start. We all get to see if Curry actually will continue the madness, or will coach for wins. Of course, I can see Curry's version of coaching for a win. Since he can't figure out anything on rotations, he will just overplay his starters to the max. It will be an ugly series coming up vs. the Cavs. At least it will just be a quick four games. To be clear, all Piston losses. More details on the game. Afflalo started, played major minutes, shot ok. Bynum played a lot, started the 2nd half. He started out cold, but got it going late in the game. Sheed contributed a triple made in his only 9 minutes played. Kwame was pretty darn good, about 17 and 14. Or so. All off inside play. Free throws not too bad at all these days. Amir played quite a bit, blocked a bunch of shots. Made a jumper. Made a hook shot driving across the lane from the left. For no apparent reason though, he was taken out of the game for good around midway thru the 4th. Bynum, Afflalo, Herrmann, JMAX, and Kwame played the last half of the 4th, and OT. Amir made the play of the game, scratching Beasly in the eye, who was killing us up to that point. JMAX had 7 offensive boards, but just 3 defensive boards in lots of minutes. He hit some jumpers, did some damage around the lane. His defense was solid, but hey, with Herrmann in the game, you can only do so much. We have lots of good defenders to surround Herrmann, but in the end, if you only use 4 defenders, the other team will find a hole in your defensive scheme. Back to Herrmann. I am sure someone will counter that they only saw about 8 points scored directly on Herrmann. But hey, if you watch enough basketball, you begin to notice that the whole team plays transition D. The whole team does defensive rotation. Herrmann does not even begin to do his share. (although his 2nd half efforts were much more acceptable than his 1st half efforts which were non-existent.) Herrmann is put in his own one man zone at the baseline, and the other 4 players are left to cover everything else. Note, Herrmann is a small forward, supposedly. Small forwards do not just sit on the baseline on defense. Take a closer look at any NBA game and you will see what I am talking about, if you bother looking. Stuckey did so so. Nothing that spectacular. Some people might try to say that hot shooting by Miami won the game. But hey, where was our small forward, who normally would be playing some perimeter D to make their outside shooters life a bit more difficult. Thats right, sitting on the baseline in his own personal one man zone.
Kwame has the size to man his position. Amir does not. In all seriousness, starting Amir was probably one of the worst decisions made in the league this year.
But it's not reflected in that actual results. Whatever it is he was doing on the court, it was helping the team.
Pistons 2 for 13 on the three ball. You wonder sometimes if this team (Post-Billips) is in the NBA with that kind of output. Joe, please get a shooter. Afflalo showed some offensive presence so that was the highlight for me. Can Bynum play any defense against the high screen? How can a guy be such a good offensive rebounder (Maxiel) and have trouble on the defensive glass? Is it because he is a tweener? I really can't figure that out. His missed free throws at the end were costly. Maxiel's offensive game is to score inside and bang so he gets to the line a lot which makes his free throwing an issue. If you get to the line and miss, it is a missed possesion. (Did people catch the column in the Detroit News on Amir and Maxiel? It took McCloskey the whole season to question their output???). I have said all year that Hermann is not really a shooter. Let the real season begin...
That's why i am not gonna watch the Cav-Pistons games, to darn depressing. Only time i am thankfull for the timezones, i won't be able to watch the game live as i will be sleeping. And yes i could get up but no i won't, lol
That was some brutal free throwing by our big men in crunch time. It was semi interesting watching Bynum and Quinn duel it out. Why no Sharpe? That was the only reason I was excited to watch this otherwise meaningless game. I just don't get the development thing I guess. 2 year contract and we paid him to do nothing for 50% of that time? Kwame Brown has a player option next year. It is pretty realistic to think that he is going to opt to come back, right?
I'll be at the playoff chats as much as I can. Today I had a conflict.
If Sharpe played any at all, people would start questioning Curry's sanity for playing Herrmann instead of Sharpe. Sharpe consistently is the first guy down the floor for transition D. Herrmann the last. That right there is enough for me to make the change.
Only 2 Pistons in the + tonight.
I have a hard time calling Bynum's showing "excellent". Chris Quinn had 7 points when Will came in for Rodney @ the 7:22 mark in the 4th. By the time the game was over, Quinn had 26 points. Plus, he took 18 shots to score 16 points, fouled out in 28 minutes, and was the worst on our team @ -9. He was the only guy who could score in the overtime, but realistically, he was the only one shooting there for a while it seemed. Hopefully he gets back in his groove for the playoffs. And yea, I thought it was pretty weak to not give Sharpe at least a few minutes of real PT for a years worth of hard work.
I must have been watching a different game. Amir looked lost, well, looked like someone who hadn't played in ages. I didn't see any need whatsoever to bring him in over Kwame or Max, both of whom where getting after it. Amir was blocking well on help, but I didn't see anything else to recommend him. It was a weird game though. Just not clear to me why no one thought to try a different defender on Quinn at some point there in the 4th or OT. Bynum is clearly pretty easy to lose on screens and Quinn got anything he wanted. Why not at least try to stop him? Maybe that would have been too big a violation of the macho one-on-one is all we play defensive approach.
There was a game on last night? Who played?
Really. Who knew this stuff was still going on? Unfortunately Miami and Chris Quinn did (and Detroit didn't).
You know my working hrs better. When the game started, I was dressing up to work. By time regular gametime end, I just reached the office. And by time OT ends, I managed to log into the forum but by then, was too frustrated to go into chat cause of the score. Will be in chat for the rest of the Pistons season.
I was out to companion the guy who writes my paycheck every month to see our client this morning during the Miami game time. The training camp ended and the real season is here to go. Go Pistons. BTW, is Amir dating several daughters of our fans here ? LOL.
Did you see who was guarding the pick and roll when he drained all those 3's? Our best P&R defender, who cheated every time by not showing hard enough.
What i don't get is why Curry doesn't seem to believe in adjustments? He just continues to watch the same thing happen over and over again. If someone is a defensive guy why not a switch him onto someone you're getting lit up by? Or adjust coverage? He might as well just go to sleep. I'm sure Arnie Kander could do a better job.
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subset: commoncrawl


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SANTA CLARA -- Cornerback Perrish Cox will help the 49ers compensate for season-ending injuries to Kyle Williams and Kendall Hunter.Ted Ginn will continue to handle the main duties on kickoffs and punts. Cox has been tabbed as the team's new backup return man, he told CSNBayArea.com on Friday, just prior to the 49ers' departure to play the St. Louis Rams.Williams and Hunter are the only other players on the roster who have returned kicks this season. Williams led the 49ers with averages of 13.0 yards on four punt returns and 27.2 yards on 13 kickoff returns.Hunter averaged 23.6 yards on seven kickoff returns. Ginn has averaged 10.6 yards on 25 punt returns and 23.0 yards on 11 kickoff returns.Williams (left knee) and Hunter (left Achilles) were placed on injured reserve this week and are officially out for the season."I really feel bad for both of those guys," Cox said. "Now, I have to step up whenever I'm called on."Cox, who did not have any kick returns in the exhibition season, has been practicing punt and kickoff returns all season, he said. He returned kicks with the Denver Broncos in the 2010 regular season and in training camp the following year. In 2010, he averaged 2.3 yards on three punt returns, with a 19.1 average on nine kickoffs.Rookie running back LaMichael James has been listed on the 49ers' depth chart as the No. 2 man behind Ginn on both kickoffs and punts. James has not been active for a game this season.Coach Jim Harbaugh on Friday declined to comment on the team's backups on punt and kickoff returns. Harbaugh did reveal, however, that Ginn takes over for Williams as the team's emergency quarterback. Ginn played quarterback in high school.With David Akers limited this week in practices due to a pelvis injury, Harbaugh said the emergency kicker is Andy Lee or Isaac Sopoaga. Akers has been cleared to play Sunday.
Eric Reid embracing new role with 49ers: 'I was made for this position'
Eric Reid embracing new role with 49ers: 'I was made for this position'
SANTA CLARA – Despite recording seven interceptions in his first two seasons and being named to the Pro Bowl as a rookie, Eric Reid said he believes he is now in a role that best fits his skillset.
Whereas in the past, the 49ers' safety positions were considered interchangeable, there is a clear delineation this season under first-year defensive coordinator Robert Saleh.
"Even dating back to college, this is the first time there's a distinct strong (safety) and a distinct free (safety)," Reid said. "I've been used to the interchangeability type of role.
"(In) some situations, certain calls where there's a motion, we might flip. There are a couple situations where I might be in the post in the free-safety role, but it's not nearly as much as it has been in the past."
Reid, who is listed at 6 foot 1, 213 pounds, said he is excited to be stationed closer to the line of scrimmage for run support while free safety Jimmie Ward patrols the deep middle of the field.
The 49ers offseason program concluded Wednesday, and Reid found himself in the middle of the action with an interception on a short Brian Hoyer pass over the middle. While he will still be counted upon for coverage, his biggest impact could come to assist a run defense that last season ranked among the worst in NFL history.
"I love it, being around the ball more," Reid said. "I anticipate making more tackles, hopefully making more plays. I feel like I was made for this position with my body type, being a bigger safety. I'm excited about this year.
"I feel like I'm using what God has blessed me with, more, which is my size and being in the box in the run game. In the past, I felt like I could do more. And being in the post, I can't use my size as much when it comes to the run game."
After producing seven interceptions in his first two seasons, Reid recorded just one interception in 26 games over the past two seasons.
As a first-round pick in 2013, the 49ers picked up the fifth-year option this season for $5.676 million. He is scheduled for unrestricted free agency at the conclusion of the season. Reid said the 49ers have not spoken to his representation about a long-term extension. That will come, he believes, if he lives up to his end of the bargain in his new, streamlined role.
"I look at it from a business standpoint," Reid said. "I majored in business. They have me under contract. They don't have any reason to talk to right now. I imagine if I play well in the first half of the season, they'll reach out to me. Maybe they'll reach out to me before training camp, I don't know. It's whatever route they decide to take. It's a business. I'll treat it as a business. I have a job to do, so I'll do it."
Mike Shanahan's official role with 49ers: Father of head coach
Mike Shanahan's official role with 49ers: Father of head coach
SANTA CLARA – Kyle Shanahan always wanted to coach football with his father. But, first, he knew he had to prove himself without any boost from his well-known dad.
Once the son established himself as one of the NFL's respected offensive minds, the Shanahans teamed up for four up-but-mostly-down seasons with Washington.
Mike, the two-time Super Bowl-winning head coach, hired his son to serve as his top offensive assistant in 2010.
"I thought we saw football similar, but we quickly realized after a few weeks that we saw it differently," Kyle Shanahan told NBC Sports Bay Area in February. "We grew together. He gave me a lot of leeway while I was there. It was fun to try a bunch of different things, having to even incorporate the zone read when we got Robert (Griffin).
"We did our deal in Washington, and I wouldn't take that back for the world, but that was pretty much the end of it."
Kyle Shanahan broke into the coaching ranks under Karl Dorrell at UCLA. He moved onto the NFL to work with Jon Gruden on the staff of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Gary Kubiak with the Houston Texans. But nothing prepared him for the scrutiny he would face as offensive coordinator under his father.
Kyle Shanahan adjusted the Washington offense to take advantage of Griffin's skills as a dual-threat quarterback as a rookie 2012. The club qualified for the playoffs with a 10-6 record.
But things blew up the following season as the Mike Shanahan-Griffin relationship soured. Shanahan and eight assistant coaches, including Kyle, were fired the morning after Washington's 3-13 season concluded.
Mike Shanahan has remained out of coaching, though he was a finalist for the 49ers' head-coaching job after the 2015 season. The 49ers hired Chip Kelly.
Kyle Shanahan rebuilt his career with one season as offensive coordinator with the Cleveland Browns and two successful seasons with the Atlanta Falcons to enable him to become CEO Jed York's choice to replace Kelly.
There is no official role for Mike Shanahan, 64, on his son's staff with the 49ers. But the father has attended several of the team's practices this offseason, including both days of the 49ers' mandatory minicamp this week. Mike has been issued his own iPad that gives him access to the 49ers playbook and coach's film. He will likely visit for an extended stay during training camp. But Kyle said he believes his dad will mostly remain home -- only a phone call away -- during the regular season.
"He's enjoying life right now," said Kyle, 37. "He's got a pretty good deal in Denver, where he lives. He can help me out in other ways anyways without having to be here every day."
Mike Shanahan does not need to be in the building every day to counsel and have influence on his son as he tries to navigate his first season as the head coach while also maintaining the responsibilities of running the team's offense.
"You're going 1,000 miles an hour," Kyle Shanahan said. "Sometimes to see everything you've got to really slow things down and take your time to look at stuff and you don't always have that time as a head coach.
"It's nice when someone you know who thinks similar to you has a similar background and he just sits in a room all day and watches stuff. He doesn't have any other responsibilities. He can see some things that I'm not always seeing and just to bring things to light that maybe I missed or other people have missed."
Mike Shanahan was a successful NFL offensive coordinator for seven seasons. He won a Super Bowl on George Seifert's staff with the 49ers in January 1995. His dad believes his time around the 49ers has a lasting impact.
"When I was with San Francisco, Kyle was at the 49ers training camps in Rocklin," Mike Shanahan told Fangirl Sports Network. "He stayed with me at camp and we talked about football every night.
"He had the opportunity to experience an organization that had won four Super Bowls in nine years. He also had the opportunity to be around some great people and leaders. He still tells stories and talks about people like Steve Young, Joe Montana, Harris Barton, Tom Rathman, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Deion Sanders, and many others. What a great experience to see how these men handled themselves on and off the field."
The Denver Broncos hired him to become head coach shortly after the 49ers' 49-26 victory over the San Diego Chargers in Super Bowl XXIX. Shanahan went on to win two Super Bowls in his 14 seasons with the Broncos.
Kyle Shanahan was a wide receiver at Duke before finishing college at Texas, where he caught 14 passes for 127 yards in two seasons. He figured he would have a career in football and it would not be as a player.
"I've wanted to coach my whole life," Kyle Shanahan said. "This is all I've known, just growing up around football. It's almost all I've been into, too. Since I was little, it's distracted me from everything I've done, especially school. I always tried to tell my mom, 'Just be patient, it'll play out for us in the long run.' Fortunately, it did.
"Once I realized my genes were a little bit better as a coach than as a player, I pretty much locked into that – and that was about halfway through college. I haven't looked back."
During his short time with the 49ers, players on both sides of the ball have expressed amazement at how knowledgeable Kyle Shanahan is about the game of football. His dad told Fangirl Sports Network to succeed as a head coach he must always be dedicated to stuyding, learning and teaching the sport.
"He loves the game and knows it inside and out," Mike Shanahan said. "My advice to him is to never lose the drive to study the game as he's done over the last 13 years. To stay in the NFL as a head coach and have success for any length of time, you must never lose your drive to teach and stay abreast of what the top teams are doing every year: offense, defense, special teams. You must be able to coach all positions to really understand the whole game."
Former 49ers president Carmen Policy said he remembers young Kyle serving as a ball boy during 49ers training camp in the early 1990s. Policy, who remains close to Mike Shanahan, has followed Kyle's rise in the coaching ranks while playfully questioning the sanity of the family business.
Said Policy: "I used to tease Mike, 'What kind of father are you to let your kid go into coaching?' I said, 'You should be charged with dereliction of parental duty.' And he'd laugh and say, 'Yeah, I tried talking to him and then my wife tried talking to him, but that's his passion, and that's what he wants to do, so I'm not going to dissuade him from it.'
"And, then, look at what happened. Here he is. He's the head coach of the 49ers, and that's just incredible."


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Anyone know anything about power steering boxes!I got a seconhand power steering box that i was told was out of a 74 model chrysler by chrysler, i think vj. For what i can find on net in pictures the early types look all the same. I took old manual box out of my ve reagal and fitted the power steering box. I know i have to replace steering column shaft or whole column to a power steering column as the maual column is longer aswel the coupling splines are different.I had to cut the inner guard so the housing for the hydraulic hoses on power steering box could fit.Is This the wrong power steering box i used or is there different housings for hoses or does a power steering car have a different inner guard shape??
If you are replacing the steering column. Use all the parts that go with it.If your purchasing the column get the steering box hoses and atleast the P/S pump.I know that Chrysler did use different boxes for a truck and a car. The ratios were different, 16 to 1 versus 22 to 1 and so on.The junk yard should be able to tell you what goes with what. If your doing a restoration get everything from the same manufacturer.I don't know if this helped you....Bob Aka-pepsi1
I was able to install the hydraulic steering the other day , pretty simple install the only difficult part was enlarging the helm opening and having drill new mounting holes. the whole setup is really nice,it eliminates all slack in the steering and makes it very similar to a cars steering. I am able to easily turn the wheel without the engines running which was very difficult with the rack cable system previously. The seastar cylinder mounts right on top of the factory power steering rack and is a very clean setup. What a difference, highly recommend this. I will be posting pictures as soon i have some.------------------------ 2013 MERCEDES BENZ SL-CLASS


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Converse have been around since the early 1900's and were one of the first companies to produce 'rubberized' shoes or trainers as we know them today. Converse trainers are probably the most recognised style across the world and have probably featured at some point in most people's lives. Converse was once the official shoe of the National Basketball Association and the ever popular Converse All Stars trainers introduced by Chuck Taylor became 'the' shoe for basketball players. Even up until today, the Chuck Taylor all star trainer, although not used within the NBA anymore, is one of the most popular fashion items with many celebrities and sports stars.
172 Items


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Cooper's Creek Recreation & Wildlife Management Area
Suches, GA 30572
Coopers Creek Wildlife Management Area is one of Georgia's larger wildlife management areas. It spans more than 30,000 acres, and lies within the Chattahoochee National Forest. This WMA is located in the extreme northeast corner of Georgia and nearly borders North Carolina. There are numerous outdoor activities, including bicycling, camping, fishing, hiking, horseback riding, picnicking and hunting. A variety of hunting is available, including deer, turkey, bear, small game and furbearers.
The trails in this wildlife management area offer nearly eight miles of easy to moderate hiking. The trails follow old logging trails and new footpaths through a variety of hardwood, mixed pine and hardwood, and white pine and hemlock forests.
Info & Amenities
Admission & Fees
Licenses required depending on use: hunting license, fishing license, WMA license http://georgiawildlife.com/licenses-permits-passes#Recreational_Licenses_and_Passes
Nature Trails
Facility Amenities
Free Parking, Parking on Site, Self-guided Tours
General Information
Group Amenities
Suitable for Ages
All Ages


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Hundreds of children at the Menteng Elementary School in Central Jakarta were allowed to leave their classes in order to gather around and watch on television results coming in from the United States because they wanted one of their alumni, Barack Obama, to become president of the United States. "Obama, Obama, Obama, we love you!" they shouted as figures came in from abroad. Headmaster Kuswadiya told teacher to suspend classes because this was an historic day for the elementary school which became the only one in the entire world that could boast one of its alumni headed a major nation of the world.
For weeks, every day prior to the beginning of classes, teachers and students have been praying for "Barry" to win the election. As news came that "Barry" had won, the children dashed from the school screaming and yelling with delight. They regarded Barry's victory as their own and all expressed the hope, "I want Obama to come here so we can talk with him" said Ajo, a fifth grader.


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Understanding Regulations and Requirements
Start Here - Understanding Regulations
This website and our annual printed Sport Fishing Regulations Guides contain the information you need to know to fish in freshwater and saltwater in Georgia. Please consult fishing regulations carefully before you go fishing since regulations may vary on different bodies of water. Following the steps below and consulting the menu items on the right-hand side of the screen will help you have the best possible fishing trip:
View a copy of this length limit notification sign
NOTE: A regulation change related to striped bass, white bass and hybrid striped-white bass and the Savannah River took effect on October 1, 2005.
Navigate to Page:
Ranger Hotline
Report poaching and wildlife violations. You can receive a cash reward if your tip leads to an arrest—even if you wish to remain anonymous.


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You are here
Center for Professional Development and Career Experience
Center for Professional Development and Career Experience
Contact Information
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Monday-Friday, 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
Wednesday until 6 p.m. (Fall, Spring)
570-389-4070 | #ProfessionalU
Unleash your inner Husky by taking steps to build a Professional U before you graduate and enter the world of work.
Get Ready – Participate in free workshops and learn how to pinpoint your career goals, write a resume, dress for success and more.
Get Experience – Get workplace experience while earning your degree through job shadowing (SEL), academic internships, study abroad or academic research.
Get Connected – Take a Career Road Trip to tour an organization in an industry of interest; attend Professional U networking events with alumni and make beneficial connections with working professionals.
Get Hired – Attend Career Fairs or participate in on-campus interviews to meet representatives from organizations interested in recruiting BU students for internships, employment or graduate school.
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Good day fellow atheists!
My question to you today: What was the final moment, action or realization that made you completely confident in your deconversion. In other words, what pushed you from agnostic (or belief, if it was sudden for you) to atheist.
For me it was a realization in philosophy class while we were studying philosophy of religion. Seeing how the arguments against god seemed much more logical and sound pushed me into a complete confidence. Since then I have been doing research to further my understanding of atheism and religion.
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Hi Teri this may sound conceited but I've always known there was no god but I had to fight many battles to be contented with it
It doesn't sound conceited. To be honest, I think I also always knew that there was no god. It just took me a long while to realize why I thought that, and that it was rational and not abnormal to think that.
My final straw came from an atheist "pamphlet" that's been around online for years. I clung to religion by the tiny thread of Intelligent Design. It made PERFECT sense to me and I could never think of anything to disprove it. Then I read this pamphlet and the incredibly obvious was pointed out to me: If nothing so complex as the universe can exist without a creator, then what about God? Wouldn't he be more complex than the universe, so how could HE exist without a creator. Damn, that last little thread snapped. Looking back, I'm not sure how ID ever made *any* sense to me at all!
That's actually great to know that the pamphlet appeals to the rational side of some theists! Were you ever a strong believer?
Yes, atheism is a belief. I prefer to call it a lack of belief in a god, that it why I said that people may change from a belief (in god) to atheism. Sorry, I could have phrased that better.
Is this a list of things theists and religions don't let you do? Is this why you deconverted/stopped believing in a god?
sorry to spoil the party but theism is a belief (a)theism is a lack of belief in something supernatural. its supported by logic,science and reason
"believe in not believing"
huh??? Keep it simple.
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
The key is lack of belief. Has nothing to do with believing.
Actually atheism is not a belief. It's a rejection of belief in the existence of a deity or deities. For clarification check this out..
What you quoted was me.. not me, quoting Wiki, I posted that link as clarification of what I was saying in case I wasn't getting the point across. .. Now I avoided the word 'belief' specifically because once 'belief' comes into the picture then Atheism is then seen by some to be a religion. Which is not. Therefore the phrase 'rejection of belief in the existence of a deities" is appropriate for me in describing what Atheism is about.
You'd think if people spent that much time on the question of God and it's ramifications they'd at least be able to make their argument convincing and their books without contradictions. But then blind faith is blind faith regardless of the amount of time involved.
Please read the numerous, well written pieces, in my opinion, that deal with this- start with Atheism, the Case Against God (Smith), then get back with us
(and here is a short article that may help as well http://www.alternet.org/belief/148555/is_atheism_a_belief/)
Yes, you are wrong.
Why are people so hung up on the concept of belief? Here is the dictionary definition I am using. "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof"
I will agree that there are some things I believe in; assumptions that I make about the world that I haven't bothered to consider, or seek evidence for myself. However, the questions of whether there is a god, which ones might be real, and the nature of the universe are questions I have put some thought to.
Religious claims have a notable distinction from scientific claims; they are not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. Claims are made, and there is no way to verify them, and they often contradict logic and readily-available evidence. The ONLY way to accept them is through faith. You have to believe, or don't.
A scientific theory works differently. Someone looks at some mysterious process in the world & wants to figure out how it works. They form a hypothesis, "It looks like this might explain what I'm seeing. If it's true, then I can expect to find X, Y & Z" Then they perform experiments to see if they do, in fact, find x, y & z where they predicted. That can provide very strong evidence to conclude that the theory might be correct. Then they publish their findings so that anyone else can look through their methods and perform the experiments themselves so they can verify their findings.
Until, of course, more data becomes available, or a better idea that requires a revision in the theory. At no point in this process does "belief" play a part.
So do I "believe" in atheism? Of course not! Honestly, there are some stupid questions, and that's one of them. I really have to question the mental faculties of someone who doesn't understand that.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Your puerile word games don't mean that you can pick your own definition for words. Atheism is a lack of belief. Get that through your head. If you are unable to understand the basic meaning of the words you use, you can't have an honest conversation.


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|Topic Review (Newest First)
Originally Posted by krozet View Post
Deposit paid last week, final payment tomorrow.
Especially for auxiliaries, diesels suffer most from not being run for sustained periods at power. Having said that different diesels have service ratings. Generally the manufacturer can advise you on this and given the specs for your boat they can make a recommendation of the power best suited for you. Where the propeller comes in is matching its' performance curve with your engine's Shaft Horse Power curve (from .94 to .96 of BHP or Brake Horse Power which is what's normally in the specs.) performance, for sailboats the goal is to get the curves to match at normally 90% power. The prop's diameter is normally limited by the hull or skeg clearance from the blade tip. You need at least 15% of the blade's diameter for clearance. The next issue is blade pitch. Too much pitch and your engine won't get up to speed, too little and it will overspeed at full throttle. After pitch comes is blade area, too little area and the prop will gravitate at full power. So if your diameter is limited you may have to go from a two bladed prop to a three bladed prop to get sufficient blade area. Propeller manufacturers will calculate the right prop given you boat and engine specifications. Michigan Wheel is a good one for this.
A note: Some manufacturers show both BHP and ISO 8665 power curves. the ISO deals with controlled testing conditions which I don't know much about. Prop manufactures seem ot with using the BHP number for thier calculations.
Again David Gerr's book has all this info
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
So - Robert... have you done the deal on the boat yet?
The current owner scanned and emailed me the Florida title of the boat, and since that title is in the name of the previous owner he sent me the sales contract from the previous owner to himself. The current owner never transferred the title as he lives overseas and didn't know if he was going to sell the boat or sail it home. He scanned and emailed me a sales contract from himself to me as well as an example letter for me to use too get the title canceled in Florida so I could start the process of getting the boat registered in Canada. I have emailed the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles 2 days ago asking them what I need to do in order too get a letter of cancellation for the boat title from their system but have yet to hear back from them. If I don't hear from them today I will have to call them.
I almost started a thread about the whole process but thought I had started enough threads in the last week and didn't want to irritate anyone.
Guess I will be the proud owner of an expensive hole in the water in the next couple days.
|So - Robert... have you done the deal on the boat yet?
Originally Posted by Waltthesalt View Post
Before deciding on a significantly larger engine I recommend checking out Dave Gerr's "Propeller Handbook" from the library. Overpowering can be problematic for the diesel if that means the engine will not normally be run at 80-90% full load.
But that's why I'm here, to learn.
Thanks for any feedback;
|Before deciding on a significantly larger engine I recommend checking out Dave Gerr's "Propeller Handbook" from the library. Overpowering can be problematic for the diesel if that means the engine will not normally be run at 80-90% full load.
Originally Posted by DwayneSpeer View Post
If the old engine is raw water cooled don't even think about a rebuild. The old engine, even if rebuilt is just waiting to fail due to something inside corroding thru.
I don't know about all the manufacturers but when I repowered with a new Beta they made engine mounts that fit onto my old engine bed. I just had some adapter plates made so that the new mount bolts and the old bolt holes worked. No big deal and definitely no rebuilding the engine mounts!
Also, I did all of the installation work on my project and I'm just a back yard mechanic. The two things that were a bit unusual were that the new engine turned opposite of the old and the throttle hookup was also backwards. I now run my transmission in reverse for forward, no big deal for a Volvo Sail Drive, and hooked the throttle up backwards also. Both readily achievable.
The bottom line. Don't give up on a new engine of a different make until you have looked into it very carefully and are sure it just won't work.
I have a line on a re manufactured Yanmar 3GM30F. The info I have received is that the shop has replaced everything except the block. The price is $3900 and comes with a two year inclusive warranty.
I can't find a new 3GM30F or 2GM20F as these have been replaced in the Yanmar catalog with the 3YM20 and 3YM30 and I can't find a price for either of these engines.
For new I have found a Yanmar 3JH3-E that has 40HP but the weight is 100Kg more than the current engine. A couple Westerbeke 30B three's that weigh less than the current engine but output 27HP. A Volvo Penta D1-30 with 29HP that weighs just a little more.
I can't seem to track down an active owners group for my boat so comparing setups isn't going to be possible.
I second Jeff on this one. I have owned two Volvo motors now, I never would have owned the second if I didnt get a 25K discount for it rusting there. The high price of labor and parts make rebuilding an engine a losing bet. Look around, find the owners group for your boat and find out what works well for your setup.
Go new, dont even think about rebuilding
Go with the new.
Check out Beta Marine and other suppliers.
Select size and footprint to fit existing mounts, should be easy.
Select transmission to get right hand vs left hand.
More HP will require different prop. Don't mull over it, just get the new right prop.
You'll be shocked at how much better the new motor, new prop, and new HP level will improve your life aboard.
Ensure closed loop cooling.
Tear down the old motor to reduce weight and chuck it over the side (lol, only if onthe hard). That was the 2nd best day of my boating life, getting rid of the volvo MD7A. what a wreck that motor was.
lots of rugs, and elbo grease and a few beers for friends will get the new motor in place.
Rebuilding that Volvo was the biggest waste of money I've experienced, second only to the stock market. lol
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Date: 01/13/2011
Views: 225
Watching the finals out on the ice
Susan, Ann, Ann's Mom (R to L)
George, Barbara, Dawn (R to L)
Our two organizers, Rachel and Emily (L to R this time)
Virginia just released the stone, and of course I missed it.
Richard, one of the Capital League Skips
Dominique, the other Capital League Skip
Jay and Virginia
Chuck and Jay
Joe Rockenbach patiently waits for the stone
So what's he going to call now
Move some rocks please
Emily and Brian in the singles final
Speaking of Tim
Say What?
Our Chefs for the evening, Mark Lawrence, Kim Belf, and Rich Warner
Some of the younger set
Enjoying dinner
The rest of the table
Virginia, Dominique, Ann, Jay
In the background is Tim Harwood, Chuck Skinner, and David Hobby (Tim's son-in-law) chatting with some younger curlers.
Album: Pictures from David Hobby
Album: Pictures from Bob Leonard


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Mandarin-Style Coin Jacket
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- Description
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The Swedish Ombudsman against Ethnic Discrimination is suing the Swedish Employment Agency for $27,000 in damages to a Muslim man who lost his benefits after refusing to shake a wman's hand during an interview. In May, 2006, the man applied for a trainee position as a welder at a company in Aimhult in southern Sweden. During the interview, the man declned to shake hands with the woman interviewing him, citing religious reasons that do not allow him physical contact with women outside his family. He explained this to the woman, and then placed his handon his chest and bowed. Not only did he not get the job, but his unemployment benefits were removed.
The company claimed the man was refused employment due to his competency in welding, but the Ombudsman believes denial was based on religious grounds. The handshaking incident was intepreted as "indirect discrimination."
This is an interesting case. Taking a job as a welder might at some point having physcial contact wth other welders, partiularly in a threatening situation. Would the man refuse having contact with a female welder if it was a life threatening situation? Would it be discrimination if the man was applying for a sales position which in western societies ordinarily requires extensive physical contact with customers?


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THIS SEASONAlyssa Dávila enters her senior season at USC as a speedy part of the Trojan attack with a knack for scoring key goals. She begins the year ranked No. 9 all-time in career points (50) and career goals (21), and also holds the third-best mark with 11 career game-winning goals.2009Dávila led USC in goals and assists as a junior, scoring nine goals and adding five assists for 23 total points... She appeared in all 21 games, starting four games... Matched the program record with three assists in a single game during USC's win over San Diego... Named to NSCAA All-Region Second Team and All-Pac-10 Second Team... Also selected to Soccer America Team of the Week on Oct. 20 after a two-goal game vs. Cal, scoring the game-winner in overtime... Finished with a team-best four game-winning goals, scoring winners against Gonzaga, Arizona, Cal and Oregon... Notched a pair of two-goal games, vs. Gonzaga and at Cal... Moved into the top-10 all-time in career points and goals and into the top-5 in career game-winners.2008Dávila appeared in all 23 games and started 10 as a sophomore... Again had a team-high game-winning goals, scoring three and finishing as the third leading scorer with seven goals on the year... Also added two assists for 16 points... Now holds the sixth best all-time mark for game-winning goals with seven... Scored the winner against Santa Clara, Clemson and Cal State Northridge... Tallied first career two-goal game at Clemson on Sept. 14.2007Dávila appeared in all 25 games as a freshman and started 11... Provided a team-high four game-winning goals... Her first career goal was a game-winner in overtime against Maryland... Finished with five goals and one assist for 11 points on the year.HIGH SCHOOLDávila was a three-sport athlete at Upland High in Upland, Calif... Also ran cross country and track... Named 2007 CIF Southern Section Division I Offensive Player of the Year as its top scorer with 28 goals and 18 assists... Named LA Times and Inland Valley Daily Bulletin Player of the Year as a senior... A CIF and Daily Bulletin first-team selection in 2006 as a forward... CIF second team pick as a midfielder in 2005... Four-time All-Baseline League First Team selection... For cross country, was named to 2003 all-league first team... Upland soccer team reached 2007 CIF final and won 2006 CIF title... Played club with Arsenal Red (U12), Foothill Storm and Slammers FC... Slammers team won 2003 and 2005 USYS National Championship... An ODP player with the Cal South State Team from 2002-2006... Team reached Regional Championship final in 2005 and won title in 2006... An honor student.PERSONALDávila is majoring in psychology... Parents are Albert and Roberta... Has three brothers, Gabriel, Michael and her twin Albert, and two sisters, Brianne and Brittany... Father Albert was a World Boxing Council Bantam-Weight Champion... Lists her father as her biggest sports hero... Favorite movies include `Remember the Titans,' `Pretty Woman' and `Wedding Crashers'... Born Oct. 4, 1989.
2007 (Fr.) 25-11 21 5 1 11 4
2008 (So.) 23-10 22 7 2 16 3
2009 (Jr.) 21-4 34 9 5 23 4
Career 69-25 77 21 8 50 11


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I beleieve hes from West Virginia :)
Listing location is not a requirement,even though it is helpful.Some people are reluctant to list where they live on the internet even though I'm sure it was an oversite on Cass' part.At this point he wasn't asking for advice,just inviting us to his blog and said he enjoys the forum.Welcome Cass and visit often!!
we love to participate in here at Beemaster!!! Ken


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St. Louis • Saint Louis men's basketball coach Rick Majerus will not return to the team because of a serious heart condition.
The 64-year-old Majerus ended the school's 12-year NCAA Tournament drought last season with a 26-win team that won its opening game and took top regional seed Michigan State to the wire. The Billikens were ranked for the first time since the 1994-95 season.
"Coach Majerus' health is of the utmost importance, and our thoughts and prayers are with him as he faces his challenges," athletic director Chris May said Friday in a statement.
"We are thankful for Rick's efforts as he succeeded by all accounts as our head men's basketball coach. This is an exciting season for the program, and we think it is important to communicate, with transparency, to the student-athletes, staff and our loyal fans that Rick will not be returning."
Majerus has been undergoing evaluation and treatment in California for ongoing heart trouble and the school announced he was on leave in late August. He and his representatives have requested that the school's department of athletics not provide additional details regarding his health.
Majerus has a history of heart woes dating to 1989 and has been on blood thinner medication. He had a stent inserted in his heart in August 2011 in Salt Lake City, and missed a handful of games in the 2011-12 season after gashing his leg in a collision with players who had been diving for a loose ball.
May said former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman, a close friend of Majerus, has been a "true godsend" in dealing with the coach's medical situation.
"Rick put his heart and soul into the team, and though he wishes he could be on the court, he will be pulling for the Billikens to have another great year," Huntsman said. "Rick sends his heartfelt gratitude for a dedicated and superb basketball team and coaching staff, together with the support of the great Billiken fans and the Saint Louis University department of athletics."
Majerus has a 25-year record of 517-216 with just one losing season and was 95-69 in five seasons at Saint Louis. He has taken 12 teams to the NCAA Tournament and four to the NIT, and his 1998 Utah team lost in the NCAA championship game to Kentucky.
UCLA's Muhammad ruled eligible to play
The NCAA has ruled UCLA freshman guard Shabazz Muhammad eligible to play.
The NCAA said Friday that UCLA's sanctions against Muhammad were sufficient after the school required him to sit out three games and repay $1,600 in impermissible benefits.
The NCAA and UCLA found that Muhammad accepted travel and lodging during three unofficial visits to Duke and North Carolina.
Muhammad will be in the lineup when the No. 13 Bruins return to action Monday in New York against Georgetown.
The NCAA announced Nov. 9, less than two hours before the Bruins' opener, that Muhammad was ineligible. UCLA filed a formal appeal Wednesday.


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Su'cuy ner Mando'ade!
Its another Mandosniper give away, and you guess it, all you have to do is write for it. Its an airforce style flight suit in sand tan and medium size, never worn. Ill post a pick of it after the first few entries.
Same rules as last time for those of you interested. enter as many times as you like, share your entry with everyone, no PMs with stuff or offers of money cause Im not interested in money (wierd for a Mando).
This time we will focus on creativity so Im not looking for a snap mission statement, I know you are Mandos but sometimes I forget that others arent trained soldiers. This time we will be looking for a fanfic style entry because we were left hanging with pieces that started great the last time and were waiting for the exciting conclusion. Take the scenario and run with it in whatever direction you want with a few mandatory elements along the way. Here it goes.
A black sun Vigo has hired you and your team of 4 Mandos to assassinate the husband of his mistress who happens to be an Imperial Moff. He lives in a highly defended villa in a cliff line that overlooks the jungle world of Ngoyum in the outer rim. Youve dispatched the Moff but you find out that you and your team has been double crossed and the Vigo doesnt intend to pay, security has been alerted to your whereabouts and two 12 man professional clean up teams from the corporate sector are closing in on your position. Your ship is 50 km away, hidden in a ground cave in the jungle by a delta in a river that runs close to the villa. What happens next? How does this end?
Here are the mandatory elements:
1. Half of your team are female Mandos.
2. One of your team members has to die.
3. No comendiering or stealing a speeder to get back to the ship.
4. End the story before the deadline.
Other than that you are free to come up with the rest of the story and how it ends. Once you end it you cant change the ending. I know the majority of fans arent tactics experts, but you dont have to be. Just make sure that whatever tactics you discribe actually make some sense. Thats it. I cant wait to read what comes out of this from those of you interested. The deadline is Monday the 6th at 7pm eastern time. That should be enough time for us to share. Good luck and may the coolest story win.


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Brianna & Avery
March 24
Charleston, South Carolina
We just love how this wedding mixes unique, bold, and modern details (a bright color scheme, the bride's pink gown) with a historic venue and Southern charm. And can we just talk about that gown for a moment? It truly proves that you don't have to wear wedding white to look like the star of the show – and still completely bridal-appropriate. We're also loving the lush florals, the cool cupcake arrangement, and the scenic ceremony spot.