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HOLY COW! That is AWESOME!!! Really man, that is like crazy talent!!! :thumbup
HOLY COW! That is AWESOME!!! Really man, that is like crazy talent!!! :thumbup
Totally cool Brian...
Yeah, totally cool looking! I like that visor/frown look. Nice idea with the fan too.
I love this thread! So much so that yesterday I purchased one of these with the intention of modding it.
Great work Brian!
Deleted by "The Duck"
Last edited by The Duck; Oct 30, 2008 at 1:03 PM.
Y'know, when I saw that helmet sitting in Zellers, I considered buying one, but thought that it'd look ****** plasticy. But what you've been able to do... that looks pretty good. Even with just the slight modification to the visor, it looks awesome. I may have to pick one up now
Deleted by "The Duck"
Last edited by The Duck; Oct 30, 2008 at 1:04 PM.
I apologize to Stormtrooperguy and have since created a new thread. I shall not post here except to otherwise comment on his SPECTACULAR build!
Sorry for the inconvenience...
dang i wish i was that talented
lol wish i had the time to do this
bumping this back up...
i've been working on converting this to a clone wars style helmet... here's where i'm at:
i added the other side of the lip in. i still need to make the lip along the bottom more symmetrical... the right side is still a bit big. it's not as bad as it looks in the pic though... there's bondo hanging over the edge on that side, which makes it look all sorts of off... a bit of sanding is needed, but it's minor.
while doing this, i reshaped the mouth area a lot. still more to go there, but it's getting closer!
in studying the pics more, i noticed that the aotc helmet has a flat area on the mouth/chin, where the clone wars one doesn't so i got rid of said flat part.
i also shortened up the mouth. when i was adding on, i brought the lower edge down way too far. i took the front edge up by a bit over 1/4".
after all of the putty, i coated liberally with bondo.
another change i made was to make the curve at the back of the fin more dramatic.
next up i'll rough sand it all, then start building up the back. there's no point sanding it all out smooth when it's going to be getting tossed around and having more bondo on it.
the back should be pretty easy... not a whole lot of detail back there at all.
Beautiful work Brian! I love how this is going.
I keep looking at my Hasbro lid and keep thinking of starting to mod it. I just have too many jobs on at the moment. Maybe I could just steal yours?? LOL!
Last edited by Skupilkinson; Dec 2, 2008 at 7:21 AM.
wow the work you've done on the hasbro helmet is amazing! Looking at the final product, one would never know how it started its life... Great job!
Words cannot express how impressed I am! Would you be willing to produce more of that helm?
tonight i did more bondo, and shortened the chin. i still need to clean up the edges along the bottom of the helmet... the lines are a bit wavy right now. that's tomorrow.
i also fixed up some asymmetry issues in the face, and shaped the mouth properly (no detail piece, indented further)\
as far as reproducing... once this one is done, i think it will be more than mine enough to feel ok making a few. not sure how that will work out, but i'll make sure to post about it if i do
I'll be watching out for any news.
The new pics are stunning! You've got the ear pieces sloping inwards now too eh? The attention to detail is amazing!
Wau man looking good!!!!!!!!!!!
that is awesome , i am so doing this, off to walmart!!!
I'm having a blast working on this. It's great seeing it coming to life.
I can imagine! I felt the same seeing my Mando lid come to life and now seeing my DC-17m.
Though this is much more exciting to watch.
Great progress Brian.
how did you build out the lower jaw line, how did you flare it out? because on the toy helmet , you have to bring out the jaw line to make it like the clone war style.
and i like what you did to the ears., where did you find your reference for the back and sides of the helmet? i googled it and did not come up with much useable material. you mentioned you had alot of photos to go by.
and we have a helmet back now!
it's 3 layers of no parking sign glued together, with about 1/8" of bondo on the outside and a good 1/2" on the inside for strength.
i've got to sand it out smooth, then start building up the details.
the bottom edge will get shortened up as i go i'm sure, but for now it sits level, which is all i wanted.
the reference i'm using is mostly screen captures from the clone wars movie. i got a digital copy with the bluray dvd i got, and have taken shots as needed.
i've been putting copies of the good stuff on my web site. both my own caps and things i've found:


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Like and Dislike
In our constant effort to improve the Harriet experience, we've implemented a new comments feature for readers to express their likes and dislikes.
The new comments feature allows readers to anonymously state a "like" or "dislike" preference for comments on Harriet posts by clicking on the "thumbs-up" or "thumbs-down" icons below each comment.
Each reader will only be able to "like" or "dislike" once for each comment, so there's no reason to worry about getting a frantic "like" click frenzy–or the opposite– from one particular reader.
The like/dislike ratio will be displayed to the left of the handy icons, updating with each vote. If a comment hits a certain dislike ratio, that comment will be hidden, requiring readers to click to view it.
We hope this feature will give the Harriet community another way to voice its opinions about the discussions occurring in the thread. If you have questions about the new feature, please email us and let us know.
Comments (77)
Will you continue to moderate comments for select individuals? Or does your new feature re-open real-time posting to everyone, so they can participate in discussions as they unfold?
Travis, could we add a CIRCUS MAXIMUS visual to the Harriet array? This would accentuate the "bread & circuses" feel, which has been gaining momentum. & maybe some stills from Fellini Satyricon. Or shots of dead gladiator. Lion eating Spare Rib.
Don't get me wrong, I like the concept. Slam-dunk. Crowds & Power.
Just so we remember that in certain occasional, unusual, very suspenseful & dramatic situations (see : Bicycle Thief? 12 Angry Loud Blowhards?) the Majority is sometimes… [drowned out by mob roar]
Thanks for your response. I see the dislike button's working on my comment, which was held for moderation briefly — had I violated anything? I think I've only posted here once before, a few days ago.
Travis wrote:
>Each reader will only be able to "like" or "dislike" once for each comment, so there's no reason to worry about getting a frantic "like" click frenzy–or the opposite– from one particular reader.
Unless a "particular reader" is posting under more than one name, no? It seems to be the case that some regular commentators (in certain cases some *very regular* commentators) are posting under different aliases.
Is there any way of controlling the use of multiple comment-box pseudonyms –which in this environment is insidious, I believe– via tracking of ISP addresses? (I saw Don Share mention ISP addresses once– I believe they reveal a message's place of origin?)
And how about keeping people from voting up their *own* comments? Any way of doing that?
Hey…can we vote on all those crappy poems posted on the main page, too?
Oops. Sorry! (Did I say that out loud?)
And may I make one more suggestion? If those who get a lot of "thumbs down" votes are to be punished by way of disappearing comments, what about *rewarding* those who get the most "thumbs up"?
For example, what if the two or three leading vote-getters over a period of six months were rewarded with a Guest Commentator stipend, even a small one: say at quarter rate that of the regular Big Name Harriet bloggers.
I mean, why not? Lord knows some of us spend enough time doing it! Why not create a new part-time career opportunity for those who just can't help themselves? I mean "who just can't help ourselves."
No question it would attract news. And it might, who knows, even lead, down the road, to a new MFA specialization (in second and third-tier Creative Writing programs):
"Professional Comment-Box Writing for Poets."
The notion might sound wacky, and I suppose on one level it is, but hey, when you think about it…
Travis said:
>I like your rewards system idea. We've talked about a number of different options along those lines, so we'll see where we end up.
Well, then would you please vote for my comment? I want to start racking up the numbers without delay. And I refuse to vote for myself!
IMHO, Nixon Chimes (i.e. "Nichts & Chimes") buttons are a welcome addition. Personally, I've found them helpful since they were instituted on "Egoless" about a decade ago.
These questions are in no way complaints:
1. In the future, will they be applied to the original post? (Sauce, goose, gander.)
2. Can we see the raw totals? (+3 is a sweep in a triumvirate, a cliffhanger in a general election.)
3. Can the names of the responders be placed at the top of each post so we know who we're reading beforehand?
Thanks for all you do for Harriet, Travis!
Best regards,
All in all the new feature strikes me as sound and a good idea actually. In my experience blogs and poetry boards tend to have far more passive readers than they have active posters. In conversations these readers tend to get discounted. The fewer active posters can sometimes take too much possession of the proceedings, too easily convinced their posts are just this side of holy writ and accepted as gospel by all those who do not speak up, when, in fact, the reader might be thinking something along the line of 'I can't be bothered with such a blather.' (And let's face it. Few are the posters not speaking to an audience.)
On the other hand, and to paraphrase Jung, every good idea has its danger. I can imagine a poster who has a fan club of members giving him the thumbs up automatically. Conversely, I can imagine a poster having ticked off so many members that, no matter what he or she says, the post will get the thumbs down and as automatically. For example, I can think of posters whose cumulative verbiage is such that, when they post, I tend to scroll through without carefully reading anymore. I suppose I could give them a thumbs down without actually having read the post and out of sheer tedium. I can also think of posters whose limited pool of ideas I've heard so many times I might again give a thumbs down without actually parsing the current post's ideas.
Harriet friends, I think I just talked myself out of ever using the feature. I think I would rather engage someone whose ideas strike me as grand, bogus, or tedious instead. This strikes me as more honest and as personal as these faceless cyber encounters can ever be.
Hello Travis.
How many individual readers need click 'dislike'before the comment is hidden, please?
Desmond Swords says: "How many individual readers need click 'dislike'before the comment is hidden, please?"
I've found that the answer seems to be two. Man, I am so out of here. This amounts to thought policing.
I have now had the opportunity to observe this feature in action.
IMHO: bad idea! This is exactly how we ended up with George W. Bush.
No thanks.
Hey, Kent…I just voted for myself. You should too…you're making sense. This is legal under the Constitution.
Hello T.
I attended a poetry event last night in Dublin and got chatting with a Canadian and American who read this blog and my suspicions as to who's considered the voices of authority and most pleasurable to read, were confirmed by two non contributing readers and simple poetry lovers.
Your hidden comment of July 16, 2009 at 7:25 pm, has a minus sign and then the number three -3, is displayed to the left of what Travis has termed the handy icons, stating the dislike ratio is three times that of the like. What it doesn't reveal is the number of, what Travis assures us are, individual reader-votes.
Until we have the information to the question asked, I cannot speak with authority on it, but instinctively I'd see various ways of interprating this thumbs up and down development.
For example, Alan Cordle's very short question-comment reproduced below has a -13 dislike ratio
Will you continue to moderate comments for select individuals? Or does your new feature re-open real-time posting to everyone, so they can participate in discussions as they unfold?
What's interesting is the number of times the handy 'dislike' icon has been clicked in relation to the comment-question. The tenor in the language of this 28 word piece is entirely civil and the comment-question wholly innocuous and yet, assuming that Travis's one-vote claim is correct, there at least 13 people who have expressed a dislike for these 28 words.
This suggests that it is not the comment they dislike, but the author of it, as the comment-question itself is a one sentence neutral non-offensive text. What's to dislike about it?
Instinct also leans toward the thought that the readers expressing a dislike for it are competing writers rather than non-writer silent readers attending here to imbibe the printed conversation of professional poets.
One very successful way to get a readership is to become a banned poet, as traditionally these have often been the ones writing the most interesting and original work, which in the time of it first appearing is roundly pounced on and the subject of attack by the jealous.
The genuine, silent Reader and objective non-partisan non-combatant uninterested in the petty politics of professional poets and who after only a good read, will easily discern the truth of what's happening on chatboards with a fairly static cast of protaganist and far from not reading, go immediately to their favourite banned poet and feast on their writing.
But please, let me be clear: 'like' and 'dislike' icons I've no problem with at all, whatsoever in any way shape or form, as they will contribute to the evolution of the site in a hopefully beneficial way for all lovers on the poetry coach, as they will aid us in the act of expressing thoughts with concision and clarity, keeping, whilst allowing us to guage the level of interest in our writing and dislike of whatever eloquence we believe present in our work by what are, essentially, rival competitors in a market-place in which our product is advertising our practice.
It may well be the case the most popular with the Reader are the writers with the highest number of 'dislike' next to the left of the handy icons.
Dear Reader
Thank you very much for supporting my practice. I have my first book coming out soon: Poetry Assassin. Forty poems from a Fitzgerald poet for the disgustingly low price of 15 dollars.
I like this.
I just voted to dislike myself and got the number up to four.
Thanks very much
Not that there is any way of policing this, but on Reddit we generally try to encourage people to "upvote" or "downvote" a comment on the basis of its value to the discussion, rather than on the basis of whether they agree or disagree.
There is a difference. Perhaps there could be a disclaimer somewhere.
I'd hate to have people decline to give their valuable opinion just because they have a large negative number by their comments.
just an idea.
Where is the button to click and approve of bogus Hiroshima survivor personae? Because I do!
But I disapprove of toilet paper.
Thank you very much Travis.
I figured out how the handy icons work. I clicked at random on the handy 'reds', thumbs down icon on comments showing a positive ratio of 'greens', thumbs up, and noticed that it reduced the number of greens by one.
I then clicked on greens for comments sporting a higher red ratio and noticed the number of reds lower, and so worked out the system. I was particualrly pleased I secured three thumbs down within the first few minutes of my fifteen word July 16, 2009 at 9:01 pm comment, as this suggests a very strong reaction to my writing by, I am guessing, rival professional and not so professional, amateur poets who instinctively react in the unsophisticated manner that expressing oneself via algebra/s of 'like' 'dislike' red and green, suggests.
My current practise on this matter is to click red on any comments showing positive for green and green on comments showing negative red.
Thanks very much.
You might want to email Terreson and let him know what happened, in case he checked out already.
For some reason I believe this like/dislike device is going to lead to a mass usage of "Like" and "Dislike" in the actual 3-dimensional world.
It is interesting that the human duality (which I encountered first in literary form through Joseph Campbell) comes into play even in something so small as like/dislike.
I then came across it again while reading up about quarks — how their natural state is a subatomic triumvir of sorts. Two "up" quarks and one "down" quark (a proton, no?). Nature at its basics tends towards three — so instead of yes/no, mind/body, time/space, like/dislike… things are more likely — yes/no/maybe, mind/body/soul, time/space/infinity, like/dislike/ehhh…
This is a terrible idea. Why would a poetry-related site want to encourage glib, facile responses, instead of extended, reasoned ones? Of all the replies one might make to a thoughtful post, "I like this" (or "I dislike this") must be the most useless imaginable. Do you really want to make quality synonymous with popularity?
But perhaps the initial post was satirical, and soon you will be promoting boiled-baby as a supplement to the food supply.
A good word to the wise. But I have a feeling there may be a causal relation between "dislike" and "extended". (There's such a thing as over-extended.)
Amen corner.
Travis Nichols says: "Hi Desmond (and Terreson!),
We're going to see what kind of response the feature gets before implementing the "collapse ratio" on any kind of regular basis. So, Terre, that your comment got collapsed after two was just a test to see if the thing works. It does. And now your comment is back up there in plain view for all the world. So don't leave just yet!
Thanks for your patience.
First off it would have been nice to have been told my initial post to this thread, and those of others, amounted to a test. For some reason I tend to expect more of poets than I expect of, say, the CIA known for conducting tests without complicit acknowledgement of its subjects.
Second thought. My initial post is objective. It presents both the positive and the danger side of the new idea. It then states that I am not inclined to participate in the new way. So what is to be disliked about such an assessment? Is it disliked because I point out the postive value, because I point out the danger, or because I say the new system is such I choose not to participate in it? So is it disliked because I pointed out the postive, or pointed out the danger, or because I said I wouldn't engage in the new feature, or because someone(s) have an animus against me?
Third thought. Almost two years ago I witnessed the (creative) demise of poets.org, the online extension of The Academy of American Poets. The site is a shadow of its former self, so to speak. Here, with this new protocal, I predict the same drop off.
Fourth thought. Travis and all, you got poetry board snarks here that are known to anyone who has worked the lines. One poster upthread, for example, is known through out the online poetry community for, in his capacity as moderator, deleting posts that stand contra to his personal beliefs. He just erases posts. I am guessing ya'll don't get the snarkiness of which poets are capable of.
Fifth item. On the small poetry board I run the consortiuum's mother board has this option of good/bad karma for every post. It is like your new like/dislike feature. The first thing I did when creating the spot was to disenable the function. I figure poets and people either speak up or sit down.
I wouldn't see it as a big deal Terreson. Most comments (on any poetry board) amount to one liners. It's all relative.
The guardian books blog has a *recommend* icon, but not a dislike one, and it is interesting that on the very busy threads, there can be 100 plus recommendations for a short one liner, which may be an insult crudely expressed. The thing is, i think, is that we're all instinctive creatures, and if this tehcnology was around in 1930's Germany, the people who organised mass-murderer on an unprecedented scale, would have thousands of greens and the ones speaking up for Jews, black people, gay, lesbian and gypsies, would have thousands of reds to their name.
People aren't voting a dislike for the comment, but for the author. The very logic the like dislike founds itself on, is at the opposite end of the spectrum from intellectualism, and comedic really. It's just a bit of fluff.
And it is only people with aspirations of becoming like we who write a lot and leave posts over one line, who click red. When you are better than other people at poetry who also want to be the best; it's a red rag to a bull and they will hate your guts.
In the text I have as the blueprint non of y'all are interested in, the 7C bardic one that gives a definition of poetry from the mind of one with 1000 years of druids behind them and 1000 years of filidh poets in print ahead of them: it says that one of the four human joys for a poet is:
The joy of health untroubled in the abundence of goading one receives on taking up the prosperity of bardcraft.
When you are cleverer and clearly more genuine than your (usually paid) rivals who poetry si a 9-5 job, you have to be untroubled by the abundence of goading you get. The better you are, the more goading. The more real you are, the more reds you get of the irrate less eloquent.
I am very proud that I seem to be in second place after Cordle in the most reds competition, overtaking Brady who is clearly widely read, can engage in intellectual exchange, and yet who people educated up to and over doctorate level, turn into raging red-necks when he leaves his say.
Because they cannot beat him in debate and it really gets on their nerves, so all the people he trounces, of course they aren't going to face up to the truth that they aren't as clever as they think they are; but cast him as the idiot and go on pretending its them and not him with the main brain.
If there are only 20 so reds against you, that's nothing. How many hundreds and thousands of poets read this board?
The bottom line is the people who work at poetry, they are doing it for Money; but for people like Brady, Woodman, me and you, the red stars, we do it for Love. The people doing it for money, the ones doing it for love, upset their cosy fantasies that they are somehow the inheritors of the dead poet source they champion: the originals who, if they were here talking now, would be in our red team.
It's comedy Terreson.
Thanks very much for reading, please click red, come on, help me get in front of Cordle.
Oh, what ego more fragile than the writer of poetry?
Only poets and heroes would trade wealth for vain glory.
I got you down to -22! But I'm hoping for -40, so don't try to keep up. BTW, I think your money theory is spot on, Swords. But the money comes not through writing lasting verse or even selling books, but by making a name for oneself first.
Did he just write "boiled baby"?
I am laughing on the inside right now.
Giggling on the outside.
I was just looking back over some of the earlier threads I'd been engaged in to see how the Like/Dislike function might have changed the tenor and indeed the whole direction of the argument. I found Martin Earl's FISH II thread particularly instructive because it wormed it's long, devious way through various fishy difficulties, one being that Martin himself was, as he described it, "on the other side of the moon" (he was travelling from Lisbon to New York–which, incidentally, are on almost exactly the same latitude. Did you know that, Martin, and what's on the same latitude as Nova Scotia?).
Things are seldom what they seem in a dialogue either, and sometimes what seems a straight remark ends up in the Outer Hebrides while a perverse tangent becomes the Zen shot that gets a thread right back on track. I was placed in a sort of devil's advocate role in that thread, which might not have been possible if Martin had been there all along to readjust what he meant–as he did very eloquently right at the end well over 100 comments later. On the other hand, the difficulties I introduced led us to other endings including Directive, the classic poem about getting lost, and on to Christian Wiman's "Five Houses Down." This might not have happened had readers been encouraged to dislike what I wrote instead of reading it.
Like and dislike is precisely what we must NOT concern ourselves with in such a dialogue, otherwise how can we ever be expected to change our minds? If we come in with the assumption that this or that angle is beyond the pale, or this or that poster is from the other side of the tracks, what hope is there for a balanced Harriet? For I see Harriet as different from all the other poetry sites because it's the only one that is not maintained by and for the PoBiz, simply because it is a.) financially independent of the PoBiz and b.) not run by PoBiz staff. Indeed, Rebecca Wolff has just headlined that she's "Paid to Post," an astonishing observation. Can any other blogger in the world claim that but someone blessed by Harriet? And my assumption would be that the regular staff are paid well too, as indeed they should be. But who else gets paid well to work with poetry but those who are dependent on the teaching business, the higher the more remunerative?
That's why Harriet has a huge incentive to rise above the tendency to "Like" and "Dislike," which inevitably is going to bug us because there are such rivalries in the field—as there always will be when any job market's tough.
One of the things I liked most about Columbia up there on Morningside Heights in the 50s was that there was no town-and-gown tension, whereas it was simmering there right below the surface all the time in New Haven (I lived on Orchard Street!). And in Cambridge the friction was ancient and deadly, indeed to such an extent that if you went up to Kings or Christs with a local accent in the 50s you would have to get elocution lessons or the other students would bully you. I mean, there were fist fights all the time, particularly on Saturday nights!
The only time the local rowdies and the silver spooners got peacefully together was when the Beatles came to town in the early 60s!
Like and dislike have no place here on Harriet, at least if you want to welcome into the community individuals who are outside the mainstream. I hear Desmond Swords loud and clear, our "grafter" from Dublin–who incidentally chose to speak the Queen's English in his last comment just above and not the various North Country and Irish dialects that are his native tongue–he did that so we would not dismiss him. And Desmond can make the town-and-gown argument much more eloquently than I can because he's suffered so much humiliation from it in the past.
There should be no place for such prejudice here on Harriet, and I do ask you urgently to reconsider this new scheme.
Hello Alan.
I was in the Oaktree pub in Kilmainham tonight, after dining with several colleagues in po-biz: Dublin playwrite John D'Arcy, Tipperary poet Noel Sweeney and God; Mike O'Moore from Balanateer in Dublin 25; who I'd gone the Oaktree with: leaving Sweeney and O'Moore in a modernist minimal and spacious apartment in the arts district of south inner city Dublin. The hostelry is just close enough (after a ten minute stroll) to being on the edge of the metropolitan suburban fringe, for a rural feel of being at total peace to be present, as we drank our couple of pints.
Prior to God and I going to the pub, we had spent the immediate afterward of our shared dinner reading poems: God, D'Arcy or Sweeney, issuing instgructions as to the accent one must recite in.
American deep south, culchee, Monaghan, Kerry, Munster, Belfast, Galway, Mayo, Kilkenny, New York, LA, cokcney, mancunian, geordie, Welsh, Cornish, Canadian, Indian, Nigerian and scouser.
These were some of the voices, accents we had to try and speak in. And it struck me as we issued our thoughts verablly, how the surname was being used – making me realize that that is all one can hope for as a bore with pretentions to becoming serious in the endevour of being straight faced.
Any write who is taken seriously, is known by their surname. My name is Kevin Desmond and so I made sure from the off, this was adhered. Sweeney too: not interested in pretending to play friends with people. What's your name: Sweeney; no pretending we are anything other than the strongest of rivals in po-biz.
And it reminded me, that you and I Cordle, have that, whilst few others on poetry-social-network sites like this, do.
An interesting article Harriet's new way brings to mind.
oops, errata.
Should read..
And it reminded me, that you and I Cordle, have that, whilst few others on poetry-social-network sites like this, do not.
Thank you very much, please click red.
Agreed. The tyranny of the demos in action, demonstrated before one's very eyes.
Yet that seems exactly where this sort of thing tends to go. I've seen it happen on several poetry boards before. It almost always ends up as an ad hominem popularity contest. I find it fascinating how even on this thread the intelligent questions by a few folks, in a neutral, non-judgmental way, have already gotten dozens of negative comments.
One fatal flaw of this system as it's currently set up: It IS a popularity contest because we cannot see the actual vote tally, only where it stands as a total. It would be interesting to see, when the tally is in the negatives, if there were any positive votes, for example. Or if lots of votes cancel out to zero, coming from all sides.
Thanks, Tere–a truly inspired response, and one you are certainly qualified to post!
For those of you who don't know him, Terreson is the author of "The Pee in the Pool of On-Line Poetry" at Clattery MacHinery, essential reading for anyone who wants to research the whole phenomenon of Cyber Poetry today.
Wikipaedia entry for SHUNNING.
"Shunning is the act of deliberately avoiding association with, and habitually keeping away from an individual or group. It is a sanction against association often associated with religious groups and other tightly-knit organizations and communities. Targets of shunning can include, but are not limited to apostates, whistleblowers, dissidents, people classified as "sinners" or "traitors" and other people who defy or who fail to comply with the standards established by the shunning group(s). Shunning has a long history as a means of organizational influence and control. Extreme forms of shunning and related practices have rendered the general practice controversial in some circles."
Thanks for that, Arthur Durkee–a valuable comment.
On the other hand, it's obvious that quite a few posters have clicked 'red' out of protest, or perhaps just to show what could happen if the system were abused. You can't judge anything by the 'reds' and the 'greens' on this thread, it seems to me, except that a simplistic dualism has no place in evaluating views about poetry. Indeed, a binary scale creates opposing factions–fans generational flames, hardens critical defenses, widens the divide between those within the academic enclave and without. Since Harriet belongs to the people, let's work toward a more holistic dialogue.
As a community we seem to like best discussing the 'odd-men-out,' like Robinson Jeffers, Philip Larkin and, yes, Elizabeth Bishop, poets who refuse to join any clique but, like all gifted eccentrics, "keep the spot sore."
Would that some of this interest in the peripherals of modern poetry rubbed off on our tolerance for each other.
Just prior to the introduction of red and green thumbs, every thread on Harriet was wrenched into a back and forth on Thomas Brady's hobbyhorse. Confront him, overwhelmingly refute him, as I and others did, or ignore him, the result was the same: the discussion was hostage to the lowest common denominator.
This vulnerability to the loudest bore is an artifact of cyberspace in the absence of a hands-on moderator, or as now, a community mechanism for up and down. Community verdict on Brady's blather was overwhelmingly down. He has apparently either recognized that he was unwelcome and withdrawn or been banished for bad ratio. I hope the door didn't hit his butt too hard on the way out.
It's good to talk about poetry and poets without being incessantly preached at that anyone you might be interested in isn't Keats. Those remaining here can certainly be silly: I find Knott's insistence on Carruth's criminal complicity with Norton in the case of The Voice That Is Great Within Us truly strange. But he doesn't insist on taking over every single thread.
And it's true: the poet can be one weird voice crying uncomfortable things in the wilderness. Stone him, stone him!
Balance that with the welfare of the community. Answers are not easy.
John Simon Oliver, friend,
Your post came up just as I was writing my plea for protection, and you posted first. So this comment is a little out of order.
Yes, I have stood up for Thomas Brady, but look, over the past 6 months he has blasted Harriet into orbit. I mean, why don't you look at the numbers? It's easy to see that from a small sleepy place last January Harriet's become dynamic, popular and the mosty attractive poetry spot in town. And that's why I defend him, and with such relish. On the other hand, I also point out all the time what I find over the top in what he says, or just plain unacceptable–which you never seem to notice in my apologies. And why not? What's wrong with your eyes and your judgement?
Over the top goes with Tom's sort of territory, I would say, such a great turner-of-tables, a scholar magnificent and first class satirist. For that reason I simply won't let you all gang up on him. Equally, I don't want you all to conclude that I'm a figment of his imagination either, which has been very hard on me, and gotten me into all sorts of trouble with the management–because I'm the one that's in disgrace, not Thomas, I'm the one that has to wait up to three days "in moderation" before I get anything posted.
You tell such wonderful stories about poetic battles in South America, John Simon Oliver, about towering personalities clashing in chaos, about ridiculous causes, tilting with windmills in pink frilled extravagances. So why are you so unsettled by Tom? That defeats me completely–you are so much older and more experienced than the young grad students who one can understand why they go bananas. I mean, you're face to face with the Real Thing in Tom, the real Che Guevara of Letters–and Che Guevara wasn't half ridiculous, and a fraud, and a vain villian to boot. But look at the gold in his image? Look at what he's become–and what he did?
Can't you give some of the generosity one needs to deal with Pound or William Empson, God forbid, or Ron Silliman to Tom, John Oliver Simon? Can't you see he's our brightest future in the making?
I honestly have no idea who Thomas Brady is, and only guess that he's young. Don't miss his forest for the small trees he throws up, I say, don't let his breast works block your vision!
Harriet is witnessing an unfolding, and you want to silence him? You, John Simon Oliver?
Sid was dyslexic; so he thought people were dissing him. It's hard to like Sid. Face it, the threads are verbose and seldom to the point; if there WAS a discernable direction in the original post. The flaw is not in the stars… I like the feature, but Sid's agin it. Remember, a no vote will elect George Bush to a third term (the machine is rigged!).
The thumbs are certainly reductive, and the lions are always hungry. (And the recent game-boy matches for scores are adolescent, but one can try to ignore them.) But the blatherers–are deadening to the mind and to the spirit. One could hope that they have ears to notice how much dead space they can create. But if not, Harriet, please do listen to pleas for a different experiment. This one is not succeeding. Like/dislike are really not adequate words for poets.
You always speak out of your love for life and your experience, and every time I see your name come up I look forward to a special gift–even if sometimes I'm personally a little disappointed (joke).
This last post is most definitely a gift.
There are always solutions just as there will always be the ends to those solutions that will plunge us back into muddles–and worse. The problem with Thomas Brady and myself are so recent, and although I can't assume this for myself, certainly in the case of Thomas the gifts he has brought to Harriet have been infinitely greater than the recent irritations. As I maintained in my note to John Simon Oliver just below, I feel Thomas Brady is a phenomenon that is unfolding right here on Harriet before us, which is one reason why he has been so repetitious. What we've got to do is find a way to cradle that gift in him even when it poops all over us and squalls. That applies to all of us, I would say, but particularly to leaders like yourself. Indeed, why can't we make this most special Blog: Harriet the place where 21st Century Poetry really began? Why can't we police ourselves by talking to each other instead of squabbling?
I've learned a lot in the last week, even though I've been furious. I'm sure Thomas is listening too–probably even better as I am so old!
I like the idea someone mentioned upthread of putting the poster's name at the beginning of each post rather than at the end. I also agree that the like/dislike categories are too simplistic and that the experiment as it stands isn't very useful.
You might try getting my name right, Christopher.
I'm so sorry, John Oliver Simon. Like Martin Earl I learned to read in the 50s (in the 40s actually–I'm older) and was taught to sound everything out. So I'm a poor speller and not good at whole word recognition.
I'll never do it again, I promise (setting himself up for yet another disaster!).
I apologize again for mixing up the order of your name, John Oliver Simon. Please forgive me.
OTOH, I agree with JOS about hobbyhorses and one trick ponies mucking up the threads.
With all due respect, Rachel, I don't agree with the way you say that. That's blog talk and this is Harriet. There's been far too much of the old mud slung about in the last 2 weeks, and we're looking now for soil much more fertile. We're also interested in more useful vehicles than bandwagons, which after all just lead to war or to Florida elections!
It's not that you're wrong necessarily, just that "hobbyhorses" and "one trick ponies" are clichés and we can do metaphors.
Christopher Woodman says: "With all due respect, Rachel, I don't agree with the way you say that. That's blog talk and this is Harriet. There's been far too much of the old mud slung about in the last 2 weeks, and we're looking now for soil much more fertile. We're also interested in more useful vehicles than bandwagons, which after all just lead to war or to Florida elections!
It's not that you're wrong necessarily, just that "hobbyhorses" and "one trick ponies" are clichés and we can do metaphors."
Woodman, you finally succeeded to reaching to my last bad nerve, and this over three sites. Where do you get off telling Rachel, or anyone else as you have want to do, the way they should say what they think? I mean talk about thought policing! While you rail against poetry sites and po-biz, frankly, yours is a most censorious voice. You are forever telling us how we should think and how we should speak and how we should see things.
Don't ever tell anyone again how they should say what they think.
I'll think about what you say carefully, Tere–I certainly don't want to stir up more trouble.
I thought I covered myself by saying a.) "With all due respect" and b.) " "I don't agree with the way you say that." It was just my own opinion, in other words–my attempt to help. Also I'm 70.
I think this little flare up pretty much gets to the heart of the matter. Would anyone else care to comment?
Somewhat relevant to this thread about 'judgment' on poetry blogs, many of you may remember the raging debate we had about censorship. It preceded, and may even have inspired the current 'Like/Dislike' feature. At that time, one Jack Conway was wreaking havoc here. He may actually be the only person ever officially banned from Harriet.
At any rate, his real name is J. North Conway and I thought some of you might be interested in following this link I found about our old (hell-raising) friend Jack C.
"BIG NEWS for my new book!
Named one of the five best for the season.
Comment by Jack C."
Blog talk? No. I use both of those terms in real life. Cliches? Sure, but apropos, IMO.
As to the rest of your post, "we"? Are you riding in on your own bandwagon?
This is exactly why likes/dislikes doesn't work: it brings the discussion down to this level. Or rather, it brings it down to this level far more quickly, and far more directly. As if poets' fragile egos weren't already delicate enough!
Jung once said: The person least likely to realize when they are being possessed by their unconscious forces is the person in question. I see this in play all the time. Not to try to psychoanalyze anyone from a distance, although it's tempting when it's as obvious as it often is, but people really do reveal a lot about themselves when they react from emotion rather than considered thought. It's often TOO easy to make a knee-jerk reaction in this medium, when one can dash off a reply in the heat of the moment, and hit "Post Comment" before they cool off. Pretty much everyone does this. (I make no claims to being better than anyone else at this. Certainly I do it too. Who doesn't? On the other hand, I do make claims about having learned by observing.)
You say you couched your request in polite terms. That is nit-picking of the worst sort: it is defending ill will by saying it's okay because it was politely worded. That's basically adhering to the letter of the law (laws of courtesy, of there are such things) while trampling all over their spirit. The veneer of politeness is not convincing, in this instance, because the message behind the polite veneer was strongly condemnatory.
Yes, you do have a bad habit, no matter how politely worded, of telling others how to think, and how to express themselves. Before you take umbrage: you DID ask.
On the other hand, in this you are hardly alone. The blogosphere (which includes Harriet; see below) is rife with such rhetoric. I don't see less of it here than elsewhere. In fact, I see pretty much the same voices, and the same arguments, here as everywhere else in PoetryWorld. It gets boring, frankly, because it's so utterly predictable.
This thread, and most of the other "discussion" threads on Harriet suffer from being dominated by several loud voices who believe that the only way to state their views is by shouting down everyone else's. And also who have nothing positive to say—all comments are negative, or attacks, or veiled insults. Do you really stand in that category? You decide. Nonetheless, a little self-awareness goes a long way, and you (and everyone else) might look at the way you (everyone) express yourself, as well.
Coming down on other people for the way they express themselves is exactly what you say you don't like other people doing to you: think about it. (This is classic mirror-projection, to use another Jungian term: people projecting out onto the world exactly what they can't see in their own selves; and the world is very kind as to mirror it back.) It's a matter of walking one's talk. If one says that one doesn't like to be corrected, then one is on very shaky ground when one has the habit of correcting others all the time.
Finally: Saying that this is Harriet and not "blog talk" is patently absurd: for one thing, this IS a blog. For another, most people operate pretty much the same way, no matter what the venue, be it blogs or message boards or Harriet. (Saying "this is Harriet" presumes several things, some of them elitist, others of them separatist, few of them affirming rather than insulting. Who's a snob, then?)
"You can't judge anything by the 'reds' and the 'greens' on this thread, it seems to me, except that a simplistic dualism has no place in evaluating views about poetry."
In which case, why bother having them?
All it does it stir things up. it doesn't add anything. It just turns discourse into even more of a binary partisan argument. Make no mistake, most people are going to click red or green depending on whether or not they like what the person says, or whether or not they like the person. It's purely subjective.
In this literary-critical world, especially in poetry, where so many critics already decry the rampantly subjective nature of most reviewing, do we really want to make things MORE subjective? or provide more fuel to that particular fire?
Not I. Obviously I share the minority position, however, and I'm quite content with that.
There's mostly truth in what you say, Ralph Durkee. Indeed, it's another illustration of the way even the best human beings can be undermined by hidden contradictions, leading them into behavior that is just the opposite of what they stand for. So we have the tragic dark sides of our saints, Albert Schweizer, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, and the discordant notes in the biographies of the wisest and most uplifting human writers, George Orwell, Robert Frost, and those legions of unfathomable meltdowns and suicides.
But it's heavy hitting to apply them so heavily to me here, Arthur, and indeed can be the first fatal step in the process that leads societies toward cancer wards and even final solutions. The dissident that has the courage to go against the grain is always vulnerable to such charges, and the establishment always holds all the cards when it comes to the crunch. If the dissident reacts to the accusation that her intrusions are selfish or his voice too loud, he or she is dismissed as self-absorbed — an Emmeline Pankhurst is dismissed as a lady that protests way too much, and a Ralph Nader for road rage!
All I can say is that if I am guilty as accused, which I am, the observations I made to Rachel still remain valid. Thomas Brady arouses a lot of anger on the site not only because he rides hobby-horses, i.e. distinct intellectual positions he espouses with great force and frequency, but also because he's so witty, unflappable, and better informed than anybody. Indeed, he's a powerful threat to the graduate students and academics who would dominate this site, and I mean, who is this guy with so many facts and no credentials? Also he's a pony that does more tricks than they've ever thought of in college, and this makes them go bananas. Indeed, there's no end to Tom's fun with them, and he never seems to tire or get mad. So let's get him.
As to myself, Arthur, I will try harder not to give advice or take what appear to be superior positions, but I do believe in Harriet, and I'm a lot older than most of you. By the same token, I hope you can be more tolerant toward me in return, and not dismiss me as a fraud. Indeed, your advice has two cut in two ways!
I think I have this right. I am pretty sure I have this right. So the like/dislike rule applies to respondents only? It doesn't apply to a blogger's original thread?
I mean if the respondent should run the chance of getting shunned why shouldn't the blogger run the chance of getting the anonymous thumbs down? Fair is fair.
Truth be told…but never mind.
Well, you DID ask. I didn't open that door, and I probably won't go through it ever again, here. I said what I needed to say; and the rest is not up to me.
Will my opinions on like/dislike sway the powers that be that determine whether such options will continue to be used on Harriet? Doubtful, very. But then, I don't expect my opinions to be even heard, here, much less actually listened to, or responded to. Like you, like others, I've been around this block several times, and I have no illusions.
In fact, my remarks were general. I DID say that others act in those ways, I did. That pretty much everyone can get into it. So if you want to take my remarks as applicable to many folks, that;s fine. If you want to take them personally, I can't help that, either. Yet I do think about how I phrase things, and I tend to say them only after carefully considering my own language, so as to be as precise as possible, and state my positions clearly. If I wasn't clear enough in already stating that my points do cut all ways (not just both ways), then consider me as saying so now. Again, everyone has done it—although some make more of a habit of it than others.
On the other hand, for example, was calling me "Ralph" meant to be a joke, or was it a brain-fart? It's the ambiguity of such things, if you don't indicate them to be joking around, that makes people take umbrage, and get pissed off. I reserve judgment for now. I'll just say, condescension works all ways, too; you may think you're a lot older than most of us, but that may or may not actually be true. Doubt anyone around here knows much about me, nor do I expect them to—or care to. Not my problem. (And I'm completely neutral about the issue, to be honest; I am moved to shrug, at most.)
It's very hard to tell tone of voice, or if people are joking, in a text-only medium in which no-one can hear the other speaking. This is well-known. Hence, the need to use language precisely rather than sloppily. (I find it hilariously paradoxical how so many poets are so sloppy in their prose, or their blogs, etc., when at the same time they decry imprecision in Poetry.)
Did I ever say I dismissed you as a fraud? I'm familiar with you, and your history. I've done my research, and I even defended you when you were being banned, elsewhere. Don't assume I'm ignorant, and don't assume everyone here is younger, or less experienced, than you. This is precisely why going out of your way to tell people how to express themselves comes across as condescending: because in fact you don't really know if it's merited or not, you just assume it is. And THAT is arrogant.
And no, I am not singling YOU out: lots of people do that, and my comments are general. But again, you DID ask.
What you say about "dissidents" (perhaps too strong a word in a discussion that really means nothing, in the big scheme of things) is true in many situations, online. Having been perceived as such myself on numerous poetry boards and blogs, simply because I bring a different (non-"poetry professional" yet very well-read) perspective to discussions in which I choose to participate (which is a tiny percentage of what I actually read through). I've been banned a few times, and I've left a few poetry boards willingly, of my own volition, when it became clear that outsider viewpoints were not only not welcome, they were rejected with extreme prejudice. One wastes one's time if one pursues matters, in such circumstances. I'd rather go write a poem. LOL
Calling oneself a dissident is often a tactic of self-justification. I did not say that YOU were doing that, but I did point out that in many of these poetry sites the worst gadflies (you've named some few of those, so I shan't) tend to use exactly that excuse: "I'm being attacked simply for being the voice of dissidence." Actually, when someone is being an agent provocateur they're not being a genuine dissident, they're just stirring up trouble for the sake of stirring up trouble. There IS a difference. Pretty much everyone knows what that difference is, from observation and experience. The other tactic one sees a lot, among those who think that discussion consists of insult or shouting everyone else down, is claims that they're just being honest or telling the truth. But being honest isn't being only negative, and only insulting. Not in the real world of discourse, anyway.
You say this sort of thing so often that I suppose you believe it. I suppose I'm coming around to the notion that you are Brady, since it's so hard to imagine that anybody could be taken in by his act. Maybe you could point us benighted academics (that's how we get pegged, even if we're also well known for our poetry & criticism, right, Chris?) to some instances where he proved "better informed" than, well, anyone at all, ever. We must have repressed our memories of these shameful comeuppances.
again (sigh) that's a reply to CW, not AD. this "reply" thing works even less well than the thumbs do. (I clicked "thumbs down" on one comment no fewer than ten times, just for the hell of it, & each one was recorded by the site.)
P.S. I only spoke out on this thread because your question, which seemed to genuinely invite honest responses, opened a door to a discussion I find interestingly relevant to the topic of this thread. The whole like/dislike issue opens the floor for a (meta-)discussion regarding critical styles, and commentary styles. It's worth discussing, in general, because mostly it's taken for granted. Or so my experience has been.
Often one runs into personality-ego-level minefields whenever this topic about style of discourse comes up. The question of how to respond to someone one disagrees with, without being either condescending or pedantic, is very much a matter of style-of-discourse. I have always maintained that if one can think of only one way to make one's point, one has set false limits upon one's own style of discourse. There is almost always a more courteous way to say something, if one just stops and thinks about it. The quick-response of a blog comment as well as the even quicker response of a like/dislike button, by their very speedy nature, promote knee-jerk responses rather than thoughtful discourse.
So, if one really wants to generate discussion and dialogue, here or anywhere else, the like/dislike binary paradigm seems a very backward way to go about it. Such simple binary opinion-registering isn't likely to deepen discussions, only to polarize them. Hence, I deem it useless, and more likely to generate new divisions rather than heal old ones.
What's even more amusing, Michael, is when the only category worse than "benighted academics" is "benighted amateurs," particularly when such further dismissals come from the same source. As if no credentials were ever good enough to satisfy, or any lack of credentials. LOL When one sees that sort of internal contradiction, it's not difficult to see that the true underlying thought is "everyone but ME is benighted." On balance, the reverse is often more true than not.
You did say it, Arthur, indeed you did. And I did ask the question and you did answer it.
The "cuts two ways" at the end of my last comment was just a hope that I wasn't the only one listening. I also do suspect that you replied to me at some length partly because you do take me seriously, Arthur, whereas the tone of Terreson's and Rachel's attacks made a reply hardly worthwhile. I did reply in any case, and yes, I'm still in the loop–which means I'm still open. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel that either Terreson or Rachel are engaged now that the door is slammed shut.
Dear Everybody,
I think one of the biggest mistakes I have been making on this site is to defend Thomas Brady, I know that, and yet here I've gone and done it again. I think I only do it out of an old teacher's instinct, to crack down on the bullies and rub their noses in the right of even the most unlovable and annoying child in the class to be free!
It was hard to reply to Rachel's attack without following it back to John Oliver Simon's before it, because she used his exact words–polysyllables, but so few of them. He had written:
"Just prior to the introduction of red and green thumbs, every thread on Harriet was wrenched into a back and forth on Thomas Brady's hobbyhorse. Confront him, overwhelmingly refute him, as I and others did, or ignore him, the result was the same: the discussion was hostage to the lowest common denominator.
This vulnerability to the loudest bore is an artifact of cyberspace in the absence of a hands-on moderator, or as now, a community mechanism for up and down. Community verdict on Brady's blather was overwhelmingly down. He has apparently either recognized that he was unwelcome and withdrawn or been banished for bad ratio. I hope the door didn't hit his butt too hard on the way out.
I replied in some detail, but unfortunately I got John Oliver Simon's name wrong and although I've apologized after every instance (4 of them in all, and I'm still sorry) he has never spoken to me again.
Perhaps the on-going snub is also because of the content of my reply above where I defended the person whose name shall no longer be mentioned. Of course it was partly your fault, John Oliver Simon, because in-spite of our total differences you insisted upon calling me him. And you of all people should know the difference, and certainly not stoop to that level.
I wonder if, in exchange for this undertaking from me, the 4 posters involved in this immediate discussion, JOS, R, T, & MB, could also give an undertaking not to suggest I'm the unmentionable either. It doesn't really matter, but it might help lift the clouds if you do.
Arthur Durkee has been fair on this–he knows who I am, and that I'm just me. Indeed, he also knows that if you combine me with someone else you dislike you just create another binary, and that means more dualism and strain.
So, if one really wants to generate discussion and dialogue, here or anywhere else, the like/dislike binary paradigm seems a very backward way to go about it. Such simple binary opinion-registering isn't likely to deepen discussions, only to polarize them. Hence, I deem it useless, and more likely to generate new divisions rather than heal old ones.
What is interesting, is how online text that takes less than 3 seconds to scroll past, causes others to react as strongly as they have done.
I don't get it, on the web, text on poetry generating so much bad blood.
If the texts of Brady and Woodman had no validity, they would be ignored and no one would care. It is precisely because they are saying treuths which others find uncomfortable, they generate so much anger from others. At least, that is just my personal, individual opinion.
Brady might be a one trick critic, but his argument is well put and he reads very well, clearly very widley read, whilst his detractors, by the force of their ire, it is clear have lost all sense of reason when he is about.
They cannot counter him, so start moaning he is *dominating* threads. It is not Brady who dominates, but the force of his intellect.
One idea may be to hide comments that are over a specific length, and that way the reader would now that that comment was a voluble one.
thank you very much for reading.
I also had the same thought as Terreson, that the original article should be subject to the love-hate button.
A common complaint about the Internet, whether it's being leveled by a journalist who just lost his newspaper job or someone who found herself the target of online rage, is that it's such a shallow, spiteful place. While it's a ludicrous statement — the Internet is merely a medium, not anything homogeneous — the complaint is valid in large, and vocal, parts of the online world. It's odd that in this age of loosened borders and individualism, online you can be drowned out with boos and hisses just by stating an off-center position. Sure, the idyllic promise of the Internet is that it can bring you news from around the world and expose you to people and things you never would have seen otherwise, but in reality many of us use it simply as an echo chamber. […]
With all the filters, communities, forums, and moderated comment sections, you never need hear an opposing viewpoint ever again. Web site forums that used to be interesting and lively can quickly turn knee-jerk and unified, with those possessing quirky senses of humor or an interesting take on things shamed into never commenting again. […]
The bully who will relentlessly attack the target of his rage from the safety of a blog is often the same person railing against the lack of human decency today.
— Jessa Crispin
I don't know if you are using multiple personas here or not. I never said that you were Thomas Brady, however, because I don't believe you are.
I did indeed suggest that you were one and the same as "Thomas Brady," a pseudonym to begin with, because your unfailing sycophantic praise of him has a truly narcissistic tone. It's very hard to imagine anyone being taken in by his act who isn't on the take.
You say you aren't him. I accept that. Let's move on.
I don't even truly care who's who. Anymore than I care about author photos. Content counts for me. The poetry. When the blather here turns to interpretive biography, i change the channel and go back to my books. The rest is–or I hope remains, shorter lines, or silence.
It seems the discussion has run its course. Just as well. Guess we'll see in what direction Harriet takes herself.
Let me just say, though, that I have, in fact, actually been to places even more serious and humorless than a poetry blog. Let's see, I had to go to my ex-boss's funeral that time… and then to Mother's, then Dad's, my brother-in-law.
Shit, I still have to plan my own damned funeral. I had to bury the old dog today.
Thank God for poetry blogs or I'd never have any fun.
If I might be permitted one more observation, here at the end.
The trouble with the Like/Dislike option is that it encourages posters to think as they are reading a comment, "Do I like this?" instead of "What is this trying to say?" or "What's in this for me?" or, best of all, "What's going on here in general? How did this come up, for what reason? What's in this for the discussion?"
As it is now one becomes polarized, whereas in an ideal discussion one should rise above both personalities and viewpoints. That's an ideal, of course, but this is a site I would hope could model an ideal, and be an example of poetry discourse in this country at its best.
As to the nitty-gritty of it, and speaking more honestly than I probably should, I know that the present system brings out the very worst in me personally, and I suspect the same thing happens to others–you can see it very clearly in the absurd swings in the voting. Also, I can hear the howls of protests everywhere, "Why did that comment get trashed?" "Why red for that?" Well, sometimes what you wrote got trashed because I trashed it myself, that's why. Indeed, I get all heated up by those Reds and/or those Greens and I think, this simply isn't fair! — and start spraying my scent around indiscriminately which, needless to say, is going to be mostly Red when I'm feeling like that. I mean, I've cast so many votes in the last week I'm not proud of, and I hate to see our beautiful discussions so defiled!
I'd love to see lots of green votes for what I'm saying so we could all admit that this is, Yes, what we're doing and No, not what we want.
Tags: Comments
Posted in Uncategorized on Thursday, July 16th, 2009 by Travis Nichols.

subset: commoncrawl


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Maintain Consistency throught kitchen and all bathrooms?
if I am doing a small re-model and installing new countertops and floors, is it better to insall the same countertop in the kitchen, guest and master bathroom to make it look consistent? Also, shoud the bathrooms get the same tile for the walls/shower/tub enclosures. I wasnt sure if it is better to have everything be the same so it matches, or if design wise it is better to have them differ, even if in similar styles (contemporary).?
IMO the different rooms don't have to match. I would prefer a variety.
I like different materials but keeping in the same style.
Counter top usually refers to a horizontal worksurface in kitchens or other food preparation areas, bathrooms or lavatories, and workrooms in general. It is frequently installed upon and supported by cabinets.
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contemporary countertops
There would be no good reason to have them all match.
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There's plenty on offer for kids at the Eco-Living Fair. Check out the fun activities, workshops and shows including the Gypsy Caravan, arts & crafts and more.
Getting there and parking
The Eco-Living Fair is held at the Randwick Community Centre in Munda Street. Get directions for walking or cycling there, the free bus route and bike valet service.
Information for residents
The 2017 Fair will be on Sunday 3 September. Council will minimise inconvenience but there will be increased vehicle and pedestrian traffic on the day. Click for details.


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2013–14 Undergraduate Bulletin
2013–14 Undergraduate Bulletin > Academic Departments, Programs, and Courses > Department of Anthropology > Anthropology Courses (ATY) > 400 > ATY 465
Explores multiple causes of disease and cultural variation in health practices. Topics include culture and political ecologies of disease, ethnomedical systems, and healers in cross-cultural perpectives.
Copyright © 2012. The University of North Carolina at Greensboro. All rights reserved.
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Nina Designs bronze jewelry findings are the perfect starting point for making jewelry. Feast your eyes on our latest Blog Partner round up with a focus on making necklaces.
Lisa from Under Her Charm really impressed us with her superb stamped charm cluster necklace. Lisa's etsy shop is full of individualized beautifully crafted stamped jewelry. Here are Lisa's kind words about Nina Designs she shared with her readers; "Nina Designs creates some of the most beautiful and unique jewelry supplies, and is also a big supporter of the artist community…" Thank you Lisa! And thank you for sharing your designs with us!
Charlie from Clayspace did amazing things with the items we sent her in last months blog partner goodie bag. We were really impressed with how cleanly she mixed materials and metals. The result was a number of very unique pieces that used Nina Designs bronze jewelry findings in exciting ways. This new mom is more than a ceramicists and jewelry maker, she incorporates inspiration into a clear vision all her own.
Check out our other talented blog partners for more necklace inspiration! Earthenwood Studio and Jewels of Sayuri both made beautiful necklaces as part of last months blog partner program.
Interested in becoming a Nina Designs Blog partner? Email firstname.lastname@example.com !


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Twitter Watch
Floyd Sr. to train Floyd Jr.
Looks like Floyd Mayweather Sr. will be training Floyd Jr. for his May 4 fight in Las Vegas against TBA. Floyd's regular trainer Roger Mayweather is out due to what is believed to be health problems.
Me & my trainer (my dad) back working together getting ready for May 4th rock.li/p/2218
— Floyd Mayweather (@FloydMayweather) February 14, 2013


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Sanyo PRO-200 Review
0. phoneArena 20 Jun 2008, 06:09 posted on
The PRO-200 is the second of two QChat devices Sanyo has available for Sprint. It is the entry-level phone in Sprint's QChat lineup, and its features are accordingly thin. Unlike its brethren, the PRO-700, the 200 is not certified to Military Specifications. This makes it a bit smaller and consumer-friendly though, and the quality is still apparent...
This is a discussion for a review. To read the whole review, click here
posted on 20 Oct 2010, 01:55 0
1. (unregistered)
the sound quality during a direct connect call is much more "robotic" and "scratchy" than my previous DC phones (i90 and i850) on both ends. it's actually quite annoying, i guess b/c i'm used to the more "true" sound i got from my old motorola phones. if this continues i will be returning it.
Comments for : Sanyo PRO-200 Review


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I am a 32 year old, white, female, who has had keloid scarring in the past. I had my ears pierced as a child that resulted in big keloid scars that I was able to have removed. I am in the process of losing weight but my biggest fear/deterrent is all the excess skin afterwards. Skin removal would be the answer to that problem but I am terrified of the possibility of major keloid scarring. Is it safe for me to have the procedure done? Any recommendations?! Please help!
Can Someone with Keloids Have Skin Removal Surgery After Major Weight Loss?
- tams from calgary
- 5 years ago
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Montreal Alouettes linebacker Shea Emry has apologized on Twitter for punching Saskatchewan Roughriders' lineman Brendon Labatte.
Emry was ejected late in the first half of Montreal's victory in Regina on Saturday for what appeared to be a punch below the belt to Labatte after a Roughriders touchdown.
The 26-year-old apologized to fans of both teams as well as to the CFL and commissioner Mark Cohon.
"I apologize to the @cfl @sskroughriders and @MTLAlouettes fans for my actions yesterday," Emry twetted on Sunday. "It was a mindless act that isn't admirable.
"That's not the person I am off the field nor is it an (example) I want to set for youth that are watching me on the field. #CFL.
"I apologize to @canadiancommish (Cohon) for putting the @CFL in a light it doesn't need to be viewed in. I'm a better person than that shows."
Emry, who had been named defensive and Canadian player of the week in the previous week, is likely to face further disciplinary action from the incident.Report Typo/Error


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|Thread Tools
lowering a top on a 31 ford coupe
Hi all, i am looking for some quick pointers on how to keep my top level and true when welding it back on. i thought of using shims, but maybe there is a better way. I am inexperienced when it comes to this, and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks
I have always used wood blocks and paint sticks for shims. duct tape will hold them in the window sills till you tack everything up, remember that even tho they look rather "square" the cab has a slite taper to it that gets bigger as you lower the lid, start at both sides of the rear window and make up for the material difference gradually as you work to the door frame,equally on each side, last one i redid for a guy, they started at the drivers door and by the time they got to the other side they had about 5/8" extra material that they didn't have the smarts to figure out.so they "folded" the metal over and resculptured the pass side with Quarter panel in a can (Bondo) looked real strange!!!
When I chopped my 1931 A Coupe back in 1999, I started by disassembling the rear turret of the body, removing the "T" strips and shortening them the desired measurement of the the chop, In my case I did a 2" chop....I used 2" masking tape to lay out the cut, and then put a piece of masking tape on each side of the 2" tape, removed the 2" strip, and I used a thin abraisive disc in a die grinder to cut the strip...I put the two sections back together with my MIG welder, finished the welds off, and then spot weled the "T " strip back into place....
I should add that I had no wood in the body whatsoever....
I cut the tops off of the doors for clearance in dropping the top......(and did this part last....)
I then did the same thing to the front posts, I removed 2" at the bottom of the posts at the cowl, and as the posts are tapered, I adjusted the width with a couple of short vertical cuts, and then reattached the posts....I used a piece of steel and clamped it to keep it straight up and down...
Now it was easy to lay out the cuts for the sides of the body turret with tape again...I removed the wood in the upper part of the "B" pillar and made the cuts....I welded the "B" pillars separate from the body skin, disced the welds down, and then reattached the sheet metal using the same tape trick....
The doors were now the last parts to chop and reweld...
My top chop turned out very nice....As I'm sort of tall (5'11") I debated on a 2" or a 3" chop...and settled on 2", figuring that I could always lower it another half inch or inch if it didn't suit me.....I used the stock seat and it's a fairly tight fit for me... From all of the research I've done, a 3" chop is a pretty good one on a 30/31 coupe, but a 30/31 Tudor body can be chopped 4", as the doors are an inch taller than the coupe doors....the windshields are the same height though...keep in mind any legal minimums as to windshield height....
For the past 26 years I pondered chopping a Model A, but being raised as a restorer first, I was very hesitant to do so...but I built my chopped coupe's body out of parts from 16 different Model A's...out of parts that all the restorers dismissed as "too rough"...
My first car show caught a lot of them at a surprise, as the body was in primer and freshly chopped with no glass other than the windshield....it took them a while to figure out that I not only had pieced together the entire body with a mig welder, but had chopped it also...
They judged my car, but they were pretty upset, but the statement I made was that they could have gotten the body for the same price I paid for it (free!)..but it was too rough and they passed it up....They thought my Wescott fenders, painted in gloss Black enamel, were originals...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....when finished it will have new patch panels all around and a nice coat of John Deere Blitz Black...a satin paint that looks like primer....probably applied by the brush method...
A-Bone's Rule!
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Hey everyone,
I just got my first brand new manual tranmission 2005 WRX Sedan and I am pretty new at driving stick. Does anyone have advice on driving stick and the best ways to take care of the clutch. SOme people have told me to leave the car parked in 1st gear while others have said to leave it in neutral while parked? Thanks for the help!


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August 26, 5-7 PM
OPENING RECEPTION One Language Project - Dog Portraits and Audio/Video Stories
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Tag Archives: transformation
A wonderful short video from the Global Oneness Project
Posted on May 22, 2012 by naturestage
"What if the world embodied our highest potential? What would it look like? As the structures of modern society crumble, where do we find solutions that can help us build the future that serves us all? Below is a short … Continue reading →
Posted in activism, empathy, environment, film, social innovation, Uncategorized | Tagged global consciousness, global oneness, humanity, transformation | Leave a comment


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The meeting brought together high-level policymakers from OECD and non OECD countries to debate policy successes and failures, identify best practices, promote co-operation and design a roadmap in the area of SME and entrepreneurship policy.
This launch event presented preliminary findings from an OECD report on sector competitiveness in Kazakhstan which suggest that Kazakhstan has a strong competitiveness and FDI potential in key non-energy sectors such as agri-business, fertilizers, logistics, business services and information technology.
The UN-OECD-NEPAD have joined forces to improve international and regional co-operation for growth and development in Africa. This partnership and the first results of their joint work were launched at a public briefing at UN Headquarters in New York on 11 October 2010.
English, , 206kb
Organised in Paris on 5 October 2010, discussions at this roundtable focused on recent investment policy developments in Canada and South Korea, country responses to Argentina's position on payment of ICSID arbitral debt, recent annulments of awards under ICSID and green growth and international investment law.
This consultation with Professor John Ruggie discussed the potential role of the OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises in the operationalisation of the UN "Protect, Respect and Remedy" Framework.
Key players in the supply chain of tin-tantalum-tungsten and gold, government representatives and international and civil society organisations met to finalise the due diligence guidance on responsible supply chain management of conflict minerals.
Discussions at this meeting focused on investment policy issues in Latin America from a Latin American perspective, taking into account the social and economic development needs and objectives of the region.
The 2010 OECD Corporate Responsibility Roundtable launched an update of the Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises with discussions focusing on supply chains, human rights and evironment and climate change.
On 16 April 2010, Peru's Minister of Economy and Finance Mercedes Araoz officially launched Peru´s National Contact Point which is located in Peru's Private Investment Promotion Agency (ProInversíon).
English, , 250kb
Organised in Paris on 26 March 2010, discussions at this roundtable focused on a review of recent investment policy developments in participating countries, the identification of investors and responsible investment in agriculture.


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Have the freshest free hiking tips sent to you each month!
There will be trade-offs among the top 4 factors in backpacking food ideas:
Here's the compromise I've reached: I carry dehydrated food for breakfast and dinner, and make lunches out of tasty, uncrushable trail foods.
In addition, I pack a multivitamin and other nutritional supplements, "just in case".
I go into a multi-day trip realizing that I will come out the other end with intense cravings for fresh salads, fruit, and hot home cooked meals.
I chalk up the cravings as the price of admission to the back country, a price I am more than willing to pay.
Plus, it feels so good to finally eat whatever I'm craving! In a perverse way, I almost look forward to the deprivation.
Want to calculate exactly how much food (calories and nutrients) you'll need?
When I shed my sleeping bag in the morning, I'm in a "let's-get-on-the-trail" frame of mind, so speed is of the essence.
Boiling water added to instant oatmeal, plus a mug of antioxidant loaded green tea, do the trick.
I also throw a handful of dried fruit & nuts into the oatmeal, which ups the nutritional value and keeps my taste buds from grumbling about bland old oatmeal.
Note that this combination balances the 3 major fuel sources: carbohydrates, fats, and proteins.
My favorite instant oatmeal: McCanns Irish oatmeal, maple and brown sugar variety. You can toss a bit of oil into it to up the fuel quotient, if you'd like.
I like the convenience and portion control of individual packets.
My cheapest instant oatmeal: from the bulk bin at my local food store. It doesn't come near to the creamy goodness of McCanns, but sometimes it's all I've got.
Bonus points for adding a tablespoon of chopped walnuts, ground flax seeds, or chia seeds!
Sometimes the little details in backpacking food ideas make a huge difference in taste and nutrition.
If you're going to use flax, go for the golden flakes! Gluten free and high in fiber, but remember to drink extra water.
Chia seeds are amazing powerhouses of nutrients, and weigh almost nothing. I highly recommend these as an addition to your micronutrient supply.
By the time it's time to find a great sit-spot around mid-day, I'm famished.
I pull out the sandwich I made that morning, and munch away while enjoying the view.
That's only for the first few days, however. Bread doesn't ride well in a backpack.
So I turn to crackers and nut butters, or sometimes just nuts and jerky and dried fruits (no sulfur dioxide, so the fruit looks a bit wrinkled and darkened).
Be sure to guard the crackers from inadvertent "smush" events (like sitting on your backpack).
I follow the carbs & protein with some high protein cookies (think nut butters or nuts), a chunk of chocolate, or an energy sphere.
I realize that some hikers prefer the chunks of cheese/salami/crackers route, or just trail mix (nuts, raisins, chocolate) and granola bars as classic backpacking food ideas.
I used to do this in my long-ago 20's and 30's, but found that salty, processed, heavy foods did not agree with my digestion.
So now I keep it light and carb rich.
I've hiked with people who only munch on trail mix for lunch, and they seem to do just fine. That's a bit too light for me!
I've also unearthed lightweight tins of easy-open sardines or herring in very tasty tomato sauce or oil from the bowels of my backpack.
Paired with crackers, quite tasty! Be sure you have a spork to capture every last drop.
Just be careful to keep any fishy oil away from your clothing or pack in bear country.
And about that spork... I tend to lose them, so I buy a 4-pack at the beginning of the summer hiking season.
Ah! First the boots come off, then the stove gets cranked up to boil water.
The boiling water is used to rehydrate some soup, which I sip as more water boils.
The salty soup takes the edge off my ravenous hunger, rehydrates me, and adds back some of the salt I lost during my hike.
This little backpacking food idea was passed along by my Girl Scout leaders 4 decades ago!
After much experimentation, I use the Backpacker's Pantry line of dehydrated food.
Because they are lean on artificial additives but high on flavor and nutrients (some even have vitamins and minerals added).
I go to this company for great backpacking food ideas - lots of entrees, vegetables, and desserts for you to scope out.
I think they're a viable
backpacking food option at the end of a long trail day.
Antioxidants can be hard to come by after a few days on the trail.
Usually you get these plant-derived protective molecules (a.k.a. "phytonutrients") in salads, cranberries, apples, red wine.
On the trail, turn to peanuts and dark chocolate to keep your cells protected from damaging free radicals (highly energetic little guys, looking to cause trouble on a molecular level).
You want to eat enough food to keep up your core temperature throughout the night and to replace the water you sweated/peed out during the day.
Don't skimp on calories when you're backpacking. Consider it richly deserved fuel!
You might have to erase or block all of the marketing messages about thinness while you're on the trail. Eat up!
While you are in "rest and digest" mode, dominated by the parasympathetic nervous system, the nutrients from dinner are being used to rebuild glycogen reserves for the next day's hike.
Also, your body is repairing damage to muscles, tendons, and bones from lugging your pack up the trail. No inflammation for you!
As an additional benefit, you won't wake up at 2AM with hunger pangs if you take the time to prepare and ingest a hot dinner.
And cold nights won't bother you, because your internal furnace is well stoked.
One more thing you can do to keep yourself healthy on the trail: brew up a cup of tea right before bedtime.
Click on the photo to discover six reasons why the best backpacking tea should be on your hiking menu.
Bottom line for backpacking food ideas for your next trip?
Fall back on the mantra of the 3 major classes of fuel biomolecules: carbohydrates, proteins, fats.
Here's an idea to try in order to gauge how you are doing, nutrient wise: keep a daily food log on the trail.
Note which backpacking meals or foods were especially satisfying, which brands or flavors you loved, and any weird cravings you had.
This takes only a few seconds, but yields valuable insight when you look back over it months later as you prepare for another trip.
If you're prone to drama, you can also doodle the names of the things you hated and embellish them with exclamation marks (or worse), just for fun.
If you want feedback from body parts beyond your taste buds, be sure to compare pre-trip body weight with post-trip weight, plus keep track of your daily energy levels.
This info builds a complete picture of how your "fuel burning plan" (a.k.a. "backpacking food list") worked out.
Tweak until perfect!
Wow! What a great way to justify lots of trail time!
If you like to be creative and devote precious outdoor time to cooking & cleaning up (see my bias?), there are tons of great recipes for backpacking food ideas, from talented outdoor chefs, to try!
Chef Glenn is a personal favorite and go-to site.
For me right now, in an aging hiker's body, the bottom line is nutrition, rather than taste and fancy flourishes.
I found this entertaining way to decide whether you're a minimalist or a gourmet back country chef: choose your own eating adventures.
So I'm probably in the minority: a cooking minimalist. I humbly accept my outcast status, because to me, the entire point of going into the back country IS to explore the back country!
But ya gotta eat, right?
I always trust the wisdom of my body when I get home from a backpacking trip, especially if I'm a few pounds lighter.
If I crave pickles on toast with a side of bacon, that's what I eat until the craving disappears!
It's just my little "thank you" to the muscles and bones which got me up and down the trails, and back home safely.
So you have my permission to honor your cravings.
They might be little postcards from your digestive system to your brain, saying "Pick up a pound of pickles (or whatever) on your way home, honey."
Home page > Hiking Nutrition > Backpacking Food Ideas
Didn't find what you were looking for? Use this search box to find it quickly.


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Shoplifting on the rise
05 October 2012 , 10:07 AM by Sally Rope
Shoplifting is on the rise.
Latest figures have revealed that Australian businesses lost an estimated 7.5 Billion dollars last year. That's up from 6.8 Billion dollars the previous year - so it's a pretty sizable increase.
Is the increase due to rising costs? And what impact is it having on retailers, and consumers who are doing the right thing?
Russell Zimmerman is the Executive Director of the Australian Retailers Association, and he spoke to Nicole about the issue...
Shawn Dowse is from security company Cohera-tech, and he also weighed in on the issue...
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RepairPal Expert Overview
Gulf States Toyota is recalling 672 vehicles because the tire information label contains incorrect spare tire size and pressure information.
Gulf States Toyota will notify owners of affected vehicles during April, 2012. There are no symptoms related to this recall. If don't receive notification and you feel you should have, please contact your dealer. It's helpful to have your vehicle identification number (VIN) handy when you call.
The tire information label contains inaccurate spare tire size and cold inflation pressure information. This could lead to improper spare tire use or replacement, which could result in tire failure, increasing the risk of a crash. Gulf States Toyota will send each owner a corrected tire information label to correct this concern.


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The Italian Dream Job
Navigating Italy's bureaucracy is not for the faint of heart. Then again, neither is getting Christina Aguilera out of her dressing room on time. "My old job was to contain stars who were exploding," says John Voigtmann, former VP of International Marketing at Sony, where he was responsible for acts such as Maroon 5, The Strokes, and, yes, Aguilera. "It was," he pauses, "frustrating."
In 2001, while looking for a wedding location in Europe with his fiancée, Condé Nast Traveler contributor Ondine Cohane, Voigtmann stumbled upon a villa in the Val d'Orcia, a stone's throw from Pienza, Tuscany. The villa was in ruins. Abandoned since World War II, it was owned by a Sardinian sheep farmer who kept his pigs at the property. After four more years at Sony, Voigtmann quit his job in 2005. He and Cohane moved to Pienza, learned Italian and, one year later, paid €450,000 (approximately $565,000 U.S. at the time) for the villa. It took another year and another €1.3 million to transform it into the midcentury modern boutique hotel that Tuscany lacked. The idea was to create a hip alternative to the area's nostalgia; it would even have an infinity pool. He called it La Bandita.
There were more than a few hurdles. The villa lay in a Tuscan park that just happened to be a Unesco world heritage site. "Even the earth was protected," Voigtmann jokes. Forget adding a pool; authorities told him he couldn't even renovate the pig house.
Utilizing the sangfroid that helped him navigate the music business, Voigtmann had a park surveyor testify that the pool site lay outside park boundaries, and Voigtmann explained that he was spending $1 million to repurpose the pig house. "There are a million laws in Italy," he says. "You can't follow all of them, so you separate the ones you actually go to jail for and follow those."
The eight-bedroom hotel, which opened in May 2007, has been so successful that Voigtmann recently purchased another property in a nearby village to keep up with the heightened demand. For now, the former pig house, which starts at €395 a night in the high season, is booked solid.
From Taming Egos to Tackling Bureaucracy
Amount spent on La Bandita renovation (new roof, new floor, new electrical and plumbing): €1.3 million
Estimated hours spent dealing with Italian bureaucracy: 2,190
Kilometers of pipe required to reach nearest water supply: 6 (nearly 3.75 miles)
Number of human neighbors vs. sheep neighbors: 2 vs. 740
Number of bottles of Brunello drunk since opening: 1,420
Amount spent on new property: €1.5 million
Expected cost of renovations to new property: €1.75 million
Sony salary: $300,000 a year
New salary: €60,000 a year, plus a house, a car, and "all the brunello I can drink (literally)."
Price of a stay in the Pig Sty Suite: €395- €495 per night
Data: La-Bandita.com


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Lady Mab Model
Jeremy KruempelPhotographer Male Eugene, Oregon, US
My Website: My BlogMy MM URL: http://www.modelmayhem.com/jerart
Mayhem # 184071
About Me
I am an artist and photographer that is always looking to try something new. I love collaborating, melding ideas to create great art.
I started out doing bodypaintings, as you can see my portfolio is full of them. Along the way I developed a love for photography as well. While I love bodypainting and am always looking to create something interesting and new, I want to explore the photographic art.
I'm easy going and ready to create. So message away and we'll do something great.
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What's for dinner?
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Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 05:36PM
Last night my brother-in-law cooked and we had banh mi sandwiches and cabbage and broccoli stir fry. We had pork for the meat eaters and mushroom for the vegetarians and it was delicious. My first time having banh mi and I'm hooked! Can't wait to make it myself.
Byron,GA> Charleston, SC> Jacksonville, FL> Guilford, CT> Rohnert Park, CA! A southern drawl in sunny Cali! .
The amount of time from slipping on the peel and landing on the pavement is exactly one bananosecond.
I do have a secret yen for pink in unexpected places.
ninja dog
I've decided that I'll never get down to my original weight, and I'm OK with that--After all, 8 pounds 2 oz. is just not realistic.


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The Brizo 699261-NK is a Luxe Nickel Drawer Knob from the Rook Collection that will bring out the 1900s Traditionalism through both the Contemporary and masculine edges to your bathroom décor. This Bathroom Drawer Knob is built out of Premium Metal. The finish on this Knob features the Brizo Brilliance Finish that are designed to not corrode, rust, or tarnish through rigorous daily use. This Drawer pull features a ring- style design that measures 2-3/16" wide with a 1-3/4" in diameter on the base plate. Brizo a luxury fittings brand for fittings and accessories is brought to you within the portfolio of the Delta Faucet Company. Brizo continues to astonish in both craftsmanship and design, they truly believe that durability and unique looks are a must for any home. The Rook collection by Brizo is made to last and impress now and for years to follow.
|Installation Type:
|1 Hole
|Product Theme:
|Cabinet Knob
|Mpn #
|Shipping Dimensions
|6.0" x 2.3" x 2.3"
|2.76 lbs.
4.5 out of 5 rating is our rating for PlumbersStock, we got that rating because we have lots of experience and great people with expertise in plumbing. BUT WE WANT YOUR HELP. This product doesn't have any reviews yet, and we don't want to write our own reviews. It is more valuable to us that the customers get to share their experience with our products. Please, if you have any experience with this product, take a moment to share and help someone else who is trying to make a decision. Thank you!


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It only takes a minute to get started. Fill out our uncomplicated sign up form and login to the site.
This step is optional but will drastically enhance your chances of getting interest from other over 50s members on the site. Write about yourself, your hobbies and upload a nice photograph of yourself.
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Discovered someone who tickles your fancy? Send them a few words or just a wink and see what happens next. With a little luck you'll be on your way to true love.
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