text:
Vol. XLIII—No. 25
Bethel College, St. Paul, Minn. Thursday, April 24, 1969
"Diversity of interpretation" noted
Group renews efforts
for college, conference
Urban Involvement aid
Officials have released results of the "Ex-tremely
Important Opinion Survey on Campus
Housing" recently conducted by the Student
Senate in cooperation with the campus plan-ning
The purpose of the survey was to provide
students with an opportunity to express their
opinions in regard to the new campus housing
plans. While more may have completed the
form, the total number turned in was 462.
In answer to the question, "Would you
personally object to all student (except those
married or who commute from home) being
required to live on campus and in a dormitory
room for all four years?", the men responded
with 155 yes and 35 no and the women with
197 yes and 55 no. •
Favorable reactions were few but included:
more interaction, better to have supervision,
greater involvement in school activities, and
convenience. Some agreed if exceptions would
be allowed for those who could not afford it
or if only freshmen were required to live on
A variety of reasons was given for not
requiring a dormitory residence for all four
years. These ranged from "causes run-down
students and poor grades because dorms are
bad for studying" to "dorms need maturity
levels — upperclassmen and freshmen live and
study differently" and "new experiences can
be gained off-campus."
Many suggestions were offered in response
to the question, "Are there any other factors
you feel should be considered in planning
for new campus housing?" Some of them
were: transportation to cultural events in the
Twin Cities; some counter-measures to compen-sate
for its remoteness; do not require full
meal plan; Sunday night dinner; enforce quiet
hours; student theater; coffee and pastry
vending machines; more flexible hours for
girls; variety in room colors and furnishings;
sturdier furniture; sound-proof halls; permit
cooking; consider a variety of alternatives —
dorms, suites and apartments; prayer rooms;
towel racks in rooms; sound-proof individual
study rooms; offer different types of rooms
at different prices; maid service, and an honor
dorm for upperclassmen with no hours and
keys for late hours.
The following is a breakdown of the ratings
of the factors in the evaluation of campus
housing, using the symbols D for desirable,
U for undesirable, and I for indifferent.
Dorm room (two in a room)
Male 111 53 22
Female 186 42 12
Suites (as provided in the
new dorm)
Male 110 66 11
Female 185 42 10
Male 139 33 10
Female 195 33 15
Free choice of on-off campus
(freedom to live wherever
In a meeting Tuesday night the
committee of Students for Urban
Involvement met once again to con-tinue
plans in the effort to find
financial support.
The committee, which has been
in existence since the closing of
the Bethel Center last fall, was
formed upon the realization that
the Evangelical Church was ne-glecting
the needs of urban society.
A proposed program was origi-nally
to be instituted in the fall
of 1969. But because of difficulty
encountered in obtaining a definite
committment for the needed funds
its implementation has been post-poned
until January 1970, at the
Committee members conceded
that even if they should receive an
immediate confirmation of finan-cial
support the time and effort
involved in arranging and incor-porating
necessary classes and se-
Male 165 6 14
Female 189 17 27
Transportation to shopping
Male 102 71 14
Female 201 33 16
Retention of present manors
Male 74 93 22
Female 98 91 47
Increased resident control of
dorm life (social activities,
open house privileges,
smoking, etc.)
Male 97 21 65
Female 106 38 87
Co-ed lounge and recreation
Male 173 14 2
Female 223 7 7
Elimination of hours for
junior and senior women
Male 133 22 23
Female 170 24 51
Officials who compiled the results of the
survey observed that, from the comments made
on student's sheets, it appears there was a
wide diversity of interpretation — whether
"resident" meant head-resident, houseparent,
or "resident" student and if "control" meant
over students or by students. Some reacted
violently and only to the word "smoking".
Their conclusion was that the response is
probably not a good indicator, and a more
specific survey would have been more con-clusive.
letting qualified students and per-sonnel
for the program would keep
them from meeting their original
In the course of the effort to
acquire the needed support, the
program has been twice revised,
but remains essentially the same
as the plan originally proposed last
The proposal, as now outlined
by the committee, would involve
a merging of resources of Bethel
College, its students and the Bap-tist
General Conference in a pro-gram
in which Bethel students
would reside in an inner city home
with supervision and continuity
provided by a carefully selected
married couple for the duration of
an academic year.
Students would not only give vol-unteer
service to agencies already
in existence in the area, but would
also develop independent programs
in an effort to make relevant and
apply classroom knowledge to prob-lems
in our society.
Included in SUI's proposal is the
provision that students, in attend-ing
special seminars and carrying
out research and other activities
related to their work, obtain 30
college credits for their year of
SUI's proposal will be confront-ed
by another hurdle on its way
to success when it goes before the
Mission Board of the Minnesota
Baptist Conference May 12 for ap-proval.
Vietnam film
views history
"Vietnam: How We Got In, How
We Get Out," is the title of a film
Pi Gamma Mu is presenting at 9
p.m. Monday in Bodien lounge.
The film is a speech by David
Schroenberun that he gave to a
San Francisco business group last
year. Members of Pi Gamma Mu
viewed the film last Thanksgiving
when they toured the U.N.
A historical analysis of North
Vietnam and United States rela-tionships
forms the basis of the
film. From this historical view-point,
Schroenberun assumes a
negative approach to U.S. foreign
policy in Vietnam.
A panel of four students will re-act
to the film after its viewing.
Then an open-ended forum will be
held with John Cowan, president
of Pi Gamma Mu, moderating.
Poll reveals objections to housing plans
Other students from area col-leges—
St. Paul Bible Institute, Con-cordia,
Macalester, Hamline, St.
Catherine's, St. Thomas', William
Mitchell College of Law—received
citations at the night banquet.
Members of the Jr. and Sr.
Chambers contacted the honor
scholars previous to the banquet
and sat with them during the ban-quet.
The main speaker was the
Hon. Robert J. Sheran, who spoke
on "Disciplined Dissent."
Lanny Boyd, from St. Paul, is a
biology major and plans to attend
Richard Olander, from Cam-bridge,
Minn., is a math major
planning on graduate school at the
University of Minnesota.
Janice Fjeldheim, from Lincoln,
Nebr., a major in church and ap-plied
music, plans on graduate
school at the U. of M., ultimately
teaching organ.
Jeff Loomis, from Jamestown,
N.Y., is an English major and will
attend graduate school at North
Carolina on full scholarship, where
he will specialize in comparative
l iterature.
WIDE-EYED — A group of seminarians and their wives recently accompanied about 70
youngsters from underprivileged homes in the Twin Cities to see the Shrine Circus.
Top-ranking seniors take honors
Lanny Boyd, Karen Steinke, graduate school at the University
Richard Olander, Janice Fjeldheim, of Minnesota.
and Jeff Loomis recently received
Karen Steinke from Windom,
citations from the St. Paul Jr. Minn., is an English major and has
Chamber of Commerce for being applied for admission to the Peace
the top ranking academic students Corps.
in Bethel's senior class.
Taylor finds participation "worth the effort"
Student-faculty committee has strong, weak points
by Greg Taylor,
president, Bethel College Student Association
Student participation in decision making at Bethel
finds its life in trust and respect for students as per-sons
and equals before Christ.
The best qualities of the secular campus should
be matter of fact on Bethel's and so the leap has
been great this year in closing the gap of consideration
and cooperation with students in decision making
at Bethel.
Almost all of the faculty and administrative
committees have had two or three students designated
for participation on them this year. Over 40 students
in all are directly involved this way and response
to an evaluation form now being returned by com-mittee
chairmen indicates there is a great degree of
satisfaction with the concern and dedication of the
student members.
Displeasure has been expressed only with the
hesitancy of some students to participate more agres-sively.
These committees incidently, are working on
curriculum reform, admissions, minority group re-cruitment,
the program of the education department,
discipline, student affairs, dean's staff concerns, and
most other aspects of Bethel's existence.
For students, the participation has been for real
this year, meaningful, even worth the effort . . .
with only few minor hang-ups. Apparently there have
been instances of students being ignored as members;
meeting times would be selected without regards to
the schedules of the student members or notices would
not be sent to them prior to the meetings. But then
some faculty members have been ignored too, so .. .
We've discovered this year that unlimited power
does not seem to be vested in the faculty either.
Some committees have not seen active student par-ticipation
only because the committee itself was a
put on. So a student has an equal vote with a faculty
member who has no power or purpose . . . It seems
the authority and power of the faculty committees
will have to be clarified in the future.
In this process of clarification, some consolidation
could be included too. There is a muddle of over-lapping
jurisdictions betwixt faculty committees as
well as student committees, and usually where there
is an overlapping nothing much happens. But if we
consolidate so that only 500 people would be neces-sary
to keep the Bethel bureaucracy decently manned,
we will have to clarify whether we have a faculty
committee or a student committee. This distinction
is important.
If it is a faculty committee the initiative, respon-sibility,
and the expenses of the committee ultimately
lay with the faculty though students may be members
of the committee. Likewise, if it is a student commit-tee
these qualities will lay with the students.
Students this year have clearly shown themselves
willing to become involved in areas where faculty
members have been rather reluctant to — for instance
social regulations or finances for the college. In
spheres of interest such as these the wise thing would
'be to have the committee responsible to those most
eager to act, be they faculty or students.
Also in this regard, faculty "advisors" on student
committees this year have not exactly overwhelmed
us with their participation. The same evaluation
forms sent to student committee chairmen have indi-cated
that the faculty members of the committees
never show except sometimes when they play the
oppressor bit.
We may not desire censors but we are willing to
accept whatever suggestions or aid they could offer
as resource personnel. If they are members of a stu-dent
committee, though, they should be as voting
members — not as veto empowered members as they
sometimes presently envision their role.
Next year if we have faculty committees with say
three members from the faculty and two members
from the students or student committees with three
students and two faculty members, we will also have
to clear up the procedures with regard to the faculty
meetings (their equivalent of a senate) and the Stu-dent
Association Senate. Shall all policy be voted on
by both? If not, students should be as welcome to
the faculty meetings as the faculty are to Senate
meetings; one should not by structure predominate
over the other.
I should inject here a comment about the "com-munity
government" concept now being tinkered with
at some schools. This is a bust. At least it's a bust
if any of the three parties — students, faculty, or ad-ministration
— are unprepared to yield or compro-mise
on any given issue.
Here our administration clearly holds the upper
hand as both our students and faculty have seen.
So rather than a seeming unity by euphemism, let's
recognize the realities of our situation and not be
caught in a position where it could be said that 'you
helped make the decision, so live with it!'
After all, in moral terms we represent 1,000
students to about sixty faculty to 10 administrators;
our community is clearly lopsided to our advantage.
The unity of purpose in our presence at Bethel goes
a long way towards a sense of community without
such a euphemistic prop.
And in conclusion (I'll buy an ice cream cone for
anyone who has read this far), we should start
thinking about the administration and the Board of
Regents of Bethel and ask what our proper and
logical relationship to them should be.
Should a student be a vice-president on the admin-istrative
Council (like the Student Association Presi-dent)
or elected by the Conference to the Regents?
And what about our faculty, could we hear some
faculty power?
Page 2
the CLARION Thursday, April 24, 1969
Student participation in decisions
keeps growing on college campuses
fiook Rebieth
"Alternative to Irrelevance"
"Can our present educational system contribute to learning
based on the total environment?"
er Education. Often spurred by
campus confrontations, the trend
toward student involvement in
campus decision-making has been
Types of student participation
have taken many forms — ranging
from student membership on com-mittees
seeking new presidents to
joint student-faculty administration
decision-making bodies.
In Kentucky, for instance, stu-dents
sought and obtained a state
law to gain student membership
on boards of trustees of six state-supported
institutions, including
the University of Kentucky, where
students are helping to find a new
president. Students also have serv-ed
or are serving on "search" com-mittees
at Georgetown University,
Davidson College, Hartwick Col-lege,
and the University of Ore-gon,
among others.
An increasing number of insti-tutions
are permitting students to
sit in on faculty-administration
committees — in some cases as
voting members. At the University
of Redlands, for example, the fa-culty
recently voted to include
students as voting members on
committees concerned with cur-riculum,
personnel, foreign pro-grams
and honors, as well as stu-dent
affairs committees.
Seven students will become full
voting members of the university
senate at New York University.
At Maryville College in Tennessee,
an "all-college council" has been
formed of six students, six faculty
members and six administrative
officers. The council will be the
institution's chief deliberative and
legislative body responsible for
long-range planning and for direct-ing
the activities of the entire col-lege
At the State University of New
York at Binghamton, students,
faculty and administrators will vote
this spring on a new community
by Pastor Maurice Lawson
Next week's chapel sessions will
begin with President Lundquist and
his administrative assistants shar-ing
concerns and plans for Bethel.
Questions may be submitted in ad-vance
to President Lundquist's of-fice
or to Greg Taylor.
Tuesday the results of t h e
"Search for a Church" discussions
will be shared. A high school choir
the CLARION
Published weekly during the academic
year, except during vacation and exami-nation
periods, by the students of Bethel
college, St. Paul, Minn. 55101. Sub-scription
rate $4 per year.
Editor-in-chief Margie Whaley
Associate Editor Chuck Myrbo
News Editor Marjorie Rusche
Feature Editor Faith Zwemke
Layout Editor Sue Bonstrom
Sports Editor Wally Borner
Business Manager Bill Goodwin
Circulation Manager Pat Faxon
Proof Readers Karen Rodberg
Mary Jo Healy
Photographer Ray Smith
Advisor Jon Fagerson
Opinions expressed in the CLARION do not
necessarily reflect the position of the college
or seminary.
At Columbia University, where
lack of student involvement in
governing has been cited as an
underlying cause of last year's
disruptions, there will be a vote
later this spring on a plan to es-tablish
a 100-member university
senate with 20 student members.
At Upper Iowa College, two stu-dents
have been added with full
voting privileges to the college's
executive committee, which form-ulates
college policy, exercises ad-ministrative
control a n d deter-mines
budget matters.
At many institutions where spe-cific
changes have not been made,
joint student - faculty - administra-tion
committees have been formed
to discuss and make recommenda-tions
about changes in student par-ticipation.
Such committees have
been formed at Bucknell Univer-sity
and the University of Pennsyl-vania.
At MacMurray College in
Illinois, classes were cancelled for
three days while campus-wide dis-cussions
were held on the state of
the college and on possible re-forms.
Among other recent develop-ments
have been the addition of
students as voting members of
academic council committees at
Stanford University, the admission
of three students as non-voting
participants in trustee's meetings
at American University, and the
In IBetheFs recent Student
Association presidential contest,
a total of 638 valid ballots were
cast, of which 323 were write-ins
for Dave Shupe, 163 were for
Bruce Otto and 147 were for
Tom Mesaros. An error in the
election report in last week's
CLARION gave the total 638
votes to Shupe.
from Kenosha, Wisconsin will also
The Tuesday theme of church
renewal will be followed up on
Wednesday when Pastor Leland
Eliason will "tell it as it is," re-counting
his own quest for honesty
in his life and ministry.
Dave Shupe, student body presi-dent-
elect, will plan the Thursday
chapel. On Friday, Gunnar Hog-lund,
director of youth of our Bap-tist
General Conference, will be
the speaker.
Teacher fails;
students 'ace'
(ACP) — A math instructor at
Ohio's Wright State University is
apparently "flunking out" because
he gave all his students "A's" last
semester. Arthur DePre called his
special hearing before administra-tive
officers a "virtual attack" and
said he was going to resign.
He defended his position by stat-ing
his students earned their "A's"
by achieving all the standards he
had set up. While DuPre was con-tinuing
to express amazement at his
students' academic prowess, fellow
faculty members seemed less im-pressed.
seating of students and faculty on
many trustee committees of Colgate
Although it would seem many
colleges and universities are mak-ing
serious efforts to give students
a voice in decision-making, Mary
Meehan, former director of the
U. S. National Student Association,
wrote that "student representation
on two or three minor committees
may be only a gesture of appease-ment
by faculty or administration."
"But," she continued, "student rep-resentation
on one or two major
committees may signify philoso-phical
acceptance of direct student
participation in campus govern-ment
. . . much depends on the
type or extent of student repre-sentation
and on the attitudes of
students, faculty and administra-tion,"
Miss Meehan wrote.
Martin, Warren Bryan. Alternative To Irrele-vance.
Abingdon Press, Nashville & N.Y.
c. 1968.
by Dave Shupe
Last Thursday afternoon I had
the privilege of attending a Bethel
faculty meeting in the President's
Dining Room. The majority of the
hour was spent in a discussion of
the book, Alternative to Irrelevance
by Warren Bryan Martin, which the
faculty was to have read.
Martin is connected with the
Center for Research and Develop-ment
in Higher Education. •
Dr. Edwin Groenhoff, social sci-ence
professor, led the discussion,
giving an extended synopsis of
Martin's principal ideas, many of
which have been utilized in the
planning of Bethel's new cam-pus.
In the discussion that followed,
it became apparent that some of
Martin's suggestions for educa-tional
reform are in direct con-trast
with prevailing student opin-ion
at Bethel. For instance, Mar-tin's
living-learning concept, to be
effective, requires on-campus resi-dency
for all students; the trend
in student feeling is toward off-campus
Discussion centered on this con-flict
as numerous faculty members
and myself presented student opin-ion
on residency requirements. The
final concensus, if any, seemed to
stress flexibilty and student choice
in these matters.
I was impressed with two things:
the openness of the faculty to my
participation in the discussion, and
the centrality of the ideas expres-sed
in Martin's book to new campus
plans. I urge all students, there-fore,
to express their ideas openly,
and, for those wishing to seriously
review new campus planning, to
read the book, as I am. You may
buy one at the bookstore or, per-haps,
borrow one from your ad-visor.
(ACP) — The Chronical of High- government plan that would es-tablish
a policy-making university
assembly with a ratio of five facul-ty
members to three students to
two administrators.
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Missionaries to Minnesota
Thursday, April 24, 1969 the CLARION Page 3
Kathe Gowdy
Marilee Benson
Jim Ankerberg
by Karen Nelson
Myriad activities face f our
Bethel student missionaries who
have been selected to work in the
Minnesota area this summer. Kathe
Gowdy and Marilee Benson will
be traveling all around the state
teaching Bible School, while Lynn
Wilson and Jim Ankerberg will
be stationed in the Negro ghetto
in Minneapolis.
Kathe Gowdy, a sophomore ele-mentary
education major already
has had a lot of valuable experi-ence.
Her home is outside Milwau-kee
where her parents direct Camp
Fred Loock, a conservation camp
for boys from the inner city.
Her basic interest in children
can be seen by her participation in
the girl's club program at the Beth-el
Center and a Sunday School class
at the Hazel Park Alliance Church.
After college Kathe is hoping to
teach in the inner city or ghetto .
"I'm going to go in one direction
until God closes the door," she said.
Marilee Benson, a sophomore
from Kiron, Iowa, has also had
some valuable experience which
should aid her in this summer's
work. In the summer of 1967 Mari-lee
traveled for seven weeks with
the Iowa Baptist Conference as a
Bible School teacher.
A music education major, she par-ticipated
in band and orchestra in
high school, and now at Bethel
she keeps herself busy with both
band and women's choir. Marilee
feels that, "to teach children is a
great privilege and a great ex-perience
for growth." After college
she plans to teach music in junior
high school.
Kathe and Marilee will begin
the summer at Eagle Point, Minn.,
and from there travel to the
White Earth Indian Reservation
where they will teach for four
weeks. Both girls are looking for-ward
to this assignment with re-served
anticipation. They will be
spending two weeks in Ely, one
week in Fort Francis, and will be
finishing the summer at a camp
near Cloquet, Minn.
Lynn Wilson is a junior from
Hebron, Ind., where her parents
own a dairy farm. In high school
she participated in choir, YFC, and
was a nine-year member of her
4-H club. She is busy at Bethel
serving as the vice president and
chaplain of Hagstrom dormitory.
At the North St. Paul Baptist
church she is a group leader for
Pioneer Girls.
Lynn's major is social work and
her minor is sociology. She is look-ing
forward to working with the
Negro people and seeing how
theories apply to practice. Lynn
wants to be open to what God
wants and is now planning on doing
casework at a rehabilitation center
after graduation.
One of the more "permanent
fixtures" of the chemistry labora-tory
is Jim Ankerberg. This hard-working
junior is a chemistry ma-jor
and biology minor and plans
on going into medical school, per-haps
in preparation for the mission
field. Jim is the youngest in a fam-ily
of four and lives in Byron, Ill.
Lynn and Jim will be working
with Central and North Central
churches doing visitation, club-work,
and day camp work. They
will be living in homes in the area.
Both are looking forward for a
summer of training and blessing.
Band prepares
for midwest trip
.Bethel's 65-piece Concert Band
is preparing for its annual spring
tour through Minnesota, Wisconsin
and Illinois, April 30 through May
The Band will present a program
of varied classical and sacred mu-sic.
Featured soloists will be Gail
Klemetti, flutist from Albuquerque,
New Mexico, who will play Kent
Kennan's "Night Soliloquy," and
the Trumpet Trio playing Agos-tini's
brilliant "The Three Trum-peters."
John Larson of Lombard,
Illinois, Band narrator, will an-nounce
the program.
Concerts are scheduled at Red
Wing, Minn.; Kenosha, Wis.; Fox
Lake, Ill.; Skokie Valley, Ill. and
various churches in the Chicago
Julius Whitinger, director of the
band, is a retired member of the
U.S. Navy Band, Washington, D.C.,
where he also served as ceremon-ial
director. The famed U.S. Navy
Band Sea Chanters, which he di-rected,
appeared in several per-formances
before various presi-dents,
including the late Dwight
D. Eisenhower. Mr. Whitinger is
a doctoral candidate of the Catholic
University of America, Washing-ton,
EDUCATION Iv
John Pearson, '68
Student Body President
Seattle Pacific College
• Daniel Amsler, Magna Cum Laude,
Bryan College.
• James Speer, Student Body President,
Biola College.
• Gary Hamburger, President, Alpha
Psi Omega, Southwestern State,
• Robert Spender, Student Body
President, Barrington College.
Involvement with some of the fin-est
minds in the evangelical corn-munity.
Involvement with top graduate
students from all over the world
training for the leadership of to-morrow's
church, as pastors,
teachers, missionaries.
Involvement in special study
programs that take students to
Europe and the Middle East.
Involvement with people in-volved
in finding Christian solu-tions
to the great problems of an
agitated world—and testing them
in a metropolis like Chicago.
Begin your involvement with
Trinity by mailing the coupon
Director of Admissions
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Bannockburn, Deerfield, Illinois 60615
Please send me your Introduction
to Trinity Evangelical Divinity
School Brochure. BE-49
Bethelites will serve this summer
by Linda Sparks
It will be a "Spring Thing" to
officially welcome spring when the
Bethel College Women's Choir per-forms,
in concert, a variety of
secular and sacred music at 8
P.M. Monday in the Fieldhouse.
Directed by Oliver Mogck and ac-companied
by Beverly Pearson and
Jo Ellen Worrell, the choir will
present both secular and sacred
numbers in an atmosphere as light
as spring itself.
Featured selection for the con-cert
is Clinton Elliot's "The Owl
and the Pussy-cat", a humorous
satire on musical styles, such as
Handel, Wagner, and Gershwin, all
blended into a contemporary sound.
Pat Chase sings a dramatic solo
as the Owl, and Susan Bomstad
delicately portrays the demure
PussyCat. The seriousness of this
composition can only be appreciat-ed
by close attention to both
lyrics and accompaniment.
Another major work is the fas
mous "Waltz of the Flowers" from
the "Nutcracker Suite" by Tschai-kovsky.
Also included in the secu-lar
section are a number of art
Governor asks guidance
a Negro, John Staggers, who works
on Capitol Hill in Washington,
D.C.. The topic was race relations.
For more than an hour, Staggers
led a discussion of Negro-White
relations and communication prob-lems.
"The problem kept coming
back to man's basic attitudes and
how they must be changed . . .,"
a Bethelite spokesman observed.
After a breakfast of bacon and
eggs, scripture was read from both
Old and New Testaments, a dedica-tion
prayer was given by the
president of General Mills. Fea-tured
guest speaker was Alan Page,
defensive tackle for the Minnesota
Bethel students attending were
most impressed by Gov. LeVan-der's
speech. They perceived in
LeVander a "genuine concern to
honestly seek God's direction and
A student leadership seminar
following the breakfast was led by
An unconventional worship service
by Sally Robertson
If one darkens the dimly-lit door-way
of Room 3 in the Seminary
Building at around 10 p.m. Sun-days,
he will peer into a candle-light
atmosphere with primitive
seating facilities.
This informal weekly gathering
in the basement room has earned
the name "Catacombs."
It all started when a small com-mittee
of students got together
with Pastor Lawson and attempted
to combine a suitable time (after
"Mission Impossible") and a popu-lar
style (semi-hootenany) into a
Sunday night worship service that
A Benedictine Monk, who was guest speaker at last week's
Catacombs session, illustrated his theme, "Christ in B!uejeans"
with this picture. In an analogy of Christ's life to a tennis
game, the speaker said, "Christ played hard and fair; He won
for us. But sometimes we walk away from the match, leaving
Him sitting on the bench."
songs by Schubert, Schumann and
'Brahms, plus a few early American
tunes, such as "Barbara Allen" and
"Ching-a-Ring-Chaw" which is ar-ranged
by Aaron Copland.
The second part of the program
will consist of a few songs taken
from the choir's Winter Concert
Tour. Included are: "Psalm 13," by
Johannes Brahms, Randall Thomp-son's
"Psalm 23," and "Psalm 150"
by Kent Newbury.
"This spring concert has provid-ed
us with an opportunity of doing
a great variety of literature in
many styles, both secular and sa-cred.
We intend to have fun in
presenting it and we believe it
will have great contrast and will
contain something for everyone
to enjoy," according to Mr. Mogck.
F-S will be at
Hotel St. Paul
Freshmen and sophomores will
meet on May 2 at the Hotel St.
Paul to meander and dine to "The
Rain, the Park and Other Things,"
this year's theme for the freshman-sophomore
A dinner will be followed by a
folk-rock concert by the "Expresso
Flower" from Wheaton College.
Plans for the event include a
fancy array of floral decorations
which will create a romantic "scene
in the park," according to class
officials. Tickets will be sold until
the day of the banquet.
would attract interested students
who don't usually feel the need or
put forth the initiative to don all
their Sunday finery for the second
time in one day.
Thus far, the Catacombs has
offered a meaningful alternative
for about 70-100 students each
Sunday evening since Christmas.
Meetings are usually short, with
a half-hour or so of audience
request singing or group specials
and 10 minutes of a more direct
devotional. Several faculty and
seminary members have shared
new ideas and insights; and stu-dents
have exchanged significant
experiences with each other con-cerning
their success in involve-ment
and witnessing off the cam-pus.
Just before Easter Break, Willie
Hale, a Negro singer from Zion
Baptist Church in Minneapolis pre-sented
a thrilling concert of spirit.
uals to the group.
Last week at Catacombs, a Bene-dictine
Monk, presently doing grad-uate
work at the University of Min-nesota,
presented the provacative
theme of "Christ in Bluejeans" in
an attempt to reorient thinking
along the lines of a relevant and
modern day Jesus, not only the
historical figure who we so often
leave back in the 2nd century con-text.
If the unconventionality of the
Catacombs arouses one's curiosity,
he probably won't be disappointed.
There are only a few weeks left
and this 45 minutes at the conclu-sion
of the week-end have proved
to be refreshing and rewarding
ones for many students.
Happiness is . . . being able to invite fellows into a
women's manor apartment — then, for a switch, letting the
girls supervise while the men make the pizza.
"Where should I Live?"
is a difficult question
by Faith Zwemke
Toward the end of the year just when most roommates have adjusted
reasonably well, the annual notice appears regarding applications for
next year's housing. Thus, questions arise of whom to live with and
Most Bethelites are familiar with dorm living, but few know all the
ins and outs of apartment or manor living. Although regulations for
guys and gals are not the same in either living arrangement, many of the
advantages and disadvantages are comparable, and a recent interview
with students acquainted with dorm and manor living revealed some of
Cited as an advantage by all of those interviewed was the greater
freedom granted in the manors. For the girls, one area of freedom in-volves
late hours, and also an elimination of the point system.
As one girl put it, "You don't have to plan your evening to the
exact second or get hit over the head with an 11 o'clock axe if you're
a couple minutes late." When questioned about the more relaxed time
clock, most dorm council members in the manors seemed to generally
agree that although there were some who took advantage of the liberty,
most residents seemed to adhere quite well to established hours.
Other freedoms granted to both male and female manor residents
include the privileges of entertaining members of the opposite sex and
cooking their own meals in the apartments.
In discussing these freedoms one male student remarked, "Dates
cost a lot if you have them as often as Bethel girls seem to like, but
being able to have a girl up to your apartment for a pizza and a few
hours with the T.V. sort of helps out the pocket book." Some female
apartment dwellers commented that it was "fun" to have the boys in for
dinner and show them a little "feminine handiwork."
The general topic of cooking and eating seemed to be one of the
major considerations of manor residents, and various opinions and meat
arrangements were discovered.
Some apartment residents all chip in on a weekly grocery list;
others buy food individually. In one situation, male and female capi-talized
on each others' talents and came up with an interesting arrange-ment.
The fellows in a Falcon Manor apartment decided their cooking
abilities were not superb, and the girls in another apartment discovered
they could swap a little ability for some "bread" . . . so together the
guys get a good meal while the gals save on the budget.
Also along the food line, the question was posed as to the advan-tage
or disadvantage of 'being on the meal plan. Most students agreed
that it was probably less expensive to eat in the apartment, but many
also mentioned that in addition to having to prepare food, it was easy
to stray from a well-balanced diet when relying on one's own kitchen
savvy. One girl interjected, "It's nice to be able to go to breakfast in
your pajamas."
Along with added freedoms come added responsibilities, and if
these are neglected, problems arise. "One such problem in the manor,"
said one student, "is that it's hard to tolerate or tell one of your room-mates
who leaves their junk all over to pick it up like everyone else."
Another girl went on to say, "money can be a real hang-up if you don't
make it clear in the beginning just exactly what is everyone's share."
Among those interviewed a repeated advantage of the dorm was
its convenience. One student stated, "If you're involved in anything on
campus you spend a lot of time running back and forth."
Minnesota's winters also crept into the picture as one girl said, "I'd
give anything for my little cubicle in Bodien when its 20 degrees below
zero and I have first hour biology!"
Another frequently mentioned advantage of the dorm revolved
around the idea of getting to know more students. Nearly all of those
questioned felt that dorm life was much more conducive to "good bull
sessions with a lot of different kids." Most conceded that apartment
living tended to narrow one's circle of friends.
Girls and fellows alike have experienced forgotten dinners and
smoke-filled kitchens along with homey easy-chairs and private telephones
in Bethel's manors, while dorm residents enjoy a two-minute walk
to supper and virtually anybody's room at any hour.
Obviously, the question of "where" involves many considerations
and few of minor importance.
Page 4 the CLARION
Thursday, April 24, 1969
Women's choir plans concert
Serious religious reflection by
state governmental officials was
recently witnessed by five Bethel
Dale Saxon, Keith Anderson,
Bruce Lawson, Steve Roe, and Dave
Pound attended the Eighth Annual
Minnesota Governor's Pr ay e r
Breakfast last Thursday at the St.
Paul Hilton.
One student from Bethel was
frustrated by the direction the
conversation was taking, so de-cided
to change it. "Realizing I was
at a 'Prayer Breakfast', I also rea-lized
no one had mentioned God
yet; on the contrary, one speaker
admitted being atheist in leaning.
After getting up the courage, I
raised my hand and explained that
I was a Christian, believing that
only Jesus Christ can solve the
problem of men's attitudes (i.e.
racism) for we ourselves are help-less."
'Catacombs' arouses curiousity, attracts crowds
J. Leonard Carroll, Pastor
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Thursday, April 24, 1969
the CLARION
Page 5
Speakers taste sweet success
Marg Erickson and Bob Bryant claimed first place trophies
in events at the recent fifth annual Northwest Debate and For-ensic
Soprano, flutist present recital,
premiere Swisher's composition
The uniqueness of a duo "senior"
recital by two juniors will be wit-nessed
Saturday evening on cam-pus.
Joanne Halvorsen, lyric so-prano,
and Harriet Norgren, flu-tist,
will perform solo, duet, and
with assistance, trio music. The
recital starts at 8 p.m. in the Sem-inary
Hall Chapel.
Joanne, a student of Oliver
Mogck and accompanied by Linda
Dow, will perform several large
Baroque works, including a solo
cantata by Buxtehude and arias
from both Bach's St. Matthew and
St. John Passions; romantic lieder
by Schumann and Brahms; and
contemporary spiritual arrange-ments
and art songs. She will be
accompanied on the Buxtehude
The two recitalists are both ele-mentary
music education majors
and have played in band at Bethel
for three years. Harriet has also
been a member of the orchestra
for one year and Joanne of the
college choir for three years.
9:25 A.M. and 6:40 P.M.
NOTICE! Bus now available for students wishing to attend Church
Worship — Bus leaves Bodien at 10:30 A.M.
by Chuck Myrbo
The Junior-Senior banquet will be at Lord Fletcher's
Friday night. Ken Irons and Bruce Otto, planning this year's
banquet, decided to go first class — and they picked a winner.
I was out there several weeks ago, and as far as I'm concerned,
the banquet can't come soon enough. I had (appropriately) the
Pepper steak — two inches thick and seven dollars long
(ticket prices are higher, to pay for beverage, tip, and enter-tainment)
and well worth it.
Lord Fletcher's is fairly new; it'll be celebrating its first
anniversary in May. On Lake Minnetonka, it's built like an
English pub, and the atmosphere is carried out to the waitres-ses'
outfits and the manager's accent. The room we'll be in is
right on the lake. It should be a beautiful evening.
To get to Lord Fletcher's (unless you've found a better
way) take the freeway (94) west to the eleventh street exit,
go right on eleventh to Hennepin, turn left on Hennepin and
go straight out highway 12 (Hennepin turns into 12). Take 12
to county road 15, which crosses 12 in Wazata; turn left on 15
and go to county road 51. Turn right on 51 and take it to the
restaurant. * * * *
For a glimpse of a world you probably haven't seen (and
one your mother wouldn't believe if she did see it) go to the
Grateful Dead concert Sunday night at the Labor Temple in
Don't let the word "concert" throw you — if you go in your
straight clothes you'll feel supremely out of it. Outfits range
from the fairly straight (there are a few) to Hell's Angels
jackets, and lean toward the hip.
The Angels are there, in a nice little bit of irony, to help
the cops maintain order. They get into the concerts free, and
make sure that the aisles stay clear and no one gets out of
hand. No one, but no one, lips off to an Angel.
Last Sunday night's Labor Temple concert featured Muddy
Waters, with Sweetwater as a second act — it was a total
freakout. Muddy Waters is a Mississippi-born blues singer who
has been around a long time. He's backed up by another guitar,
a piano, and a mouth organ. He's beautiful. And "Long Distance
Call" was beautiful. And "Hootchy Kootchy Man" was beautiful
But Sweetwater was the surprise that made the evening
a twelve-story high. Sweetwater is a hard-rock group — an
unlikely combination of an electric piano, a cello, a set of
African drums, a flute and a siren. The siren is a girl, who
doesn't play anything. She just wails; and moves.
It hasn't been fifteen years since Elvis dropped into the
world from that gas station in Tennessee and even non-conser-vatives
were sure that rock music was "of the devil." It's only
been five since the Beatles began to change hair styles (and
practically everything else) and everyone knew it couldn't last.
Muddy Waters' blues made us realize where some of us
have always been. The crowd at the concert showed us how
far the rest of us have come in finding what they have always
had — that blues-born ability to make music to merge with.
And Sweetwater, with one half-hour number, brought that
crowd of over a thousand people to its feet in a maxi-happening
that showed us why we came.
The crowd loved Sweetwater then. And Sweetwater loved
the crowd. And everybody in the place loved everybody in
the world. And we wished they'd leave the stage, because there
was nowhere to go but down. But they started playing again —
and went up. The majority who weren't stoned already were
feeling as high as the minority who were. Then they played
still another number, and the people who weren't satisfied
just being on their feet flooded the stage, and we all would
have flown up to the ceiling of we had only known how.
But then it was over, and as we stood there catching our
breaths, trying to drop back to the ground as slowly as possible,
the emcee came out and rolled the universe into a ball: "When
it gets too bad, and the goin' gets tough, there's always music."
MEN PART-TIME or FULLTIME WORK
Call 226- 1039
It was a climactic end to a
season of hard work last weekend
as a group of Bethel students
claimed second place among col-leges
participating in the fifth an-nual
Northwest Debate and For-ensic
The last area forensic and debate
tournament that Bethel will par-ticipate
in this season saw 18 Beth-elite
contestants and three judges
—Dave Whitney, Don Rainbow and
Mrs. Margaret Dewey—arriving at
Wisconsin State University at Su-perior,
Wisc., for the tournament.
After three rounds of prelimi-nary
speaking, Bethel had placed
six people in finals of six events-
Sherie Lindvall in after dinner
speaking, Debbie Amundson in
oratory, Hugh McLeod and Bob
Bryant in extemporaneous speak-ing,
Gayle Nelson in poetry and
drama interpretation, and Marg
Erickson in rhetorical criticism.
With the finals tabulated, Bryant
and Marg Erickson were announced
as first place trophy winners in
their respective events, Debbie
Amundson as a second place win-ner,
and Gayle Nelson as third-place
winner in two events.
Bethel placed second to Wiscon-sin
State University at EauClaire
in overall sweepstakes, with 10 and
13 points respectively. There were
25 schools from Wisconsin, Illinois,
Indiana, Minnesota and North Da-kota
represented at the tourna-ment.
More than one half of the Bethel
students participating in the last
event were just introduced to com-petitive
speaking during the recent
Bethel Forensic Festival.
Coach Whitney and team mem-bers
are looking forward to an
exciting year next year. "Bethel
is finally moving into a position
of leadership and challenge in
speaking activities," according to
James Mason, chairman of the
speech department.
Team members hope to win more
contests and bring home more tro-phies
next year, as well as to gain
new participants and support of
other students.
work by the flutes of Harriet Nor-gren
and Gail Klemetti.
Harriet, a student of Robert
Beverly, will be accompanied by
Mrs. Ruth Fardig of the Bethel
music faculty. Her solo selections
include a movement from the first
concerto of Mozart, "Sonate" by
the contemporary composer Paul
Hindemity, and "Poem" by C. T.
Griffes. With Gail Klemetti joining
her on flute and John Hopkins as
clarinetist, she will conclude her
section of the program with the
Trio, Opus 37, of Beethoven.
Both Joanne and Harriet will
have part during the recital's pre-miere
performance of "In t h e
Night," an original composition of
Jay Swisher, junior secondary mu-sic
education major. Writer of
all parts of the work, (piano, voice,
and flute), Jay plans to do gradu-ate
work in composition.
by Wally Borner
Stanley Cup Play Offs
While Montreal and Boston are at each others throats
in the senior division hockey play off, it appears that the St.
Louis Blues may be too good in their own division for their own
good. After taking both opponents four straight games in best
of seven contests, St. Louis will have to take a lay-off while
waiting for their next foes. In so doing, they could lose a bit
of the edge which has kept them on top all season. It's almost
impossible to say who will win the Boston-Montreal series,
and it is almost certain to go seven games. And if that seventh
game should happen and be televised, you can bet your boots
that you won't see a harder fought contest for the rest of the
Wilt brings the Lakers in
Chamberlain may be about to prove that he's as good a
coach as he is a player. The Lakers will be meeting the Boston
Celtics for all the marbles in pro basketball. But then with a
bunch of super-stars like West and Baylor and the coach,
that makes things much easier. The unbelieveable thing is
that Wilt is taking a good over-hand shot at the gift line and
is actually beginning to make 50% of his free throws. This
series will be another close one, but with Don Riley backing the
Lakers, how can they lose.
Baseball—the exhaustive year
With four divisions which no one can really get excited
about, it's going to be a pain to try to remember who leads
where and why. The way it stands, somebody could win their
division and not even be playing over .500. Kind of like the
Vikings last season who were 8-6. But any way, it will be an
interesting season in some respects such as when will the next
open letter to Twins fans come out and will anyone care for
the novelty in Montreal if the Canadiens win the Stanley Cup.
But anyway, here's how the season will end:
American League — East
Detroit and Baltimore will fight it out for first with
Detroit getting the edge. The Yankees will try to revive the
dream but only manage third. Boston will have a colorless
year except for Yaz and Conigliaro who will get an award for
determination. If Cleveland can get out of their rut, they may
lose their last place spot to Washington.
American League — West
Ih has to be the Twins on the basis of hometown prejudice,
color, and of course Billy Martin. Chicago has as many prob-lems
as the Twins and will take second. Oakland's pitching
staff will make it tough and finish a strong third. California's
experience should put them over Seattle and Kansas City.
Seattle seems to have just a bit more talent than K.C.
National League — East
The Cubbies are leading right now and it would be great
to see them win. However, St. Louis is in the same league.
Philadelphia and Pittsburgh will tie for third and the Mets
and Montreal will tie for fifth.
National League — West
This one could be the biggest toss up. San Francisco has
the edge but Atlanta and Los Angeles could also take it. Cincin-nati
is a dark horse. Houston should be able to overtake San
Diego before the season is over.
of 25 hits
Clark, Delich bolster baseball hopes
currently leads Bethel's offense with 10 hits
in 21 official-at-bats.
April 25-May 1
25 Golf, Bethel vs. St. 'Thomas
25 Baseball, Twins at Chicago TV
26 Tennis, Bethel at St. Cloud
26 Baseball, Bethel at St. Olaf
26 Track, Bethel Relays
26 Baseball, Twins at Chicago TV
27 Baseball, Twins at Chicago TV
28 Baseball, Twins vs. Kansas City
29 Golf, Bethel vs. River Falls
29 Baseball, Twins vs. Kansas City
30 Track, Bethel at Hamline
30 Baseball, Twins vs. Seattle
30 Baseball, Bethel vs. Luther
1 Tennis, Augsburg
1 Baseball, Twins vs. Seattle
With any sport at any level, it is always interest-ing
to see what kind of crop of rookies the season
will have. At Bethel, it is especially interesting be-cause
of the lack of any great number of stars to
shoulder the load in any sport.
Jack Trager's first year as baseball coach has
proved satisfying in this area of freshman ballplayers.
Two first year students have broken into the lineup
and are becoming two of the most solid performers
on the team.
Gary Clark, from DesPlaines, Illinois, is the
Royal centerfielder for this season. Coach Trager
commented that Gary is a superb outfielder. He has
good range and can get a good jump on the deep
fly balls. However, Gary is becoming the most ef-fective
batman on the team. After gathering only
one hit in the first three games, he has collected
nine hits in thirteen official at bats in the four vic-tories.
With a group of quitting and graduating lettermen,
one of the biggest gaps was at the hot corner. Jim
Delich has taken sole possession of that spot and,
except for a shaky first game, has done an excellent
job in patrolling third base. Besides playing solid
defensive ball, Jim is currently hitting .300 and has
scored eight runs.
The unusual part of Jim and Gary's young Bethel
baseball career is that they have been put into the
relief role for the mound staff. In two games, Jim
has pitched 2 1/3 innings, giving up one hit, no
runs, and striking out four. Clark has worked four
innings, and has also given up one hit, no runs, and
chalked up four whiffs.
With a winning streak under their belts, these
two rookies, and some good veterans, the Royal base-ball
team is planning on a plus .500 year.
Page 6 the CLARION
by Wally Borner
The track team journeyed down
to Gustavus for their Relays com-petition
Saturday and showed that
the spring trip paid off. Taking
second place to the host, Bethel
out-performed four other schools,
with Augsburg the only one making
anything in the way of a threat.
The Gusties took seven first-place
finishes to Bethel's five. But
those five included impressive vic-tories
in the 440-yard relay and
the mile relay. The latter is the
one which will be remembered
longer because it was a new rec-ord,
the only new Bethel record of
the afternoon. Jack Campbell, Fritz
Fredeen, Rick Berggren, and Dave
Pound pushed themselves to a time
of 3:26.8 — four tenths of a second
better than the old record. The
440 yard team was the same except
for Bob Olson replacing Rick Berg-gren.
'Bethel took second place in the
880-yard relay, the distance medley,
and the shuttle run. Of the relays,
only the sprint medley brought off
a low placing as the Royals man-aged
a fifth place.
Bob Olsen tossed his shot farther
than anyone to take honors in that
category. Darrel Nelson and Jim
Carlson tied for fifth as they are
beginning to give Bethel a potent
threat in the weight events.
Fred Swedberg took first in the
Javelin and second in the discus.
His jav toss was far enough to
show the possibility for breaking
his own record in that category
in the near future.
Bethel's own Relays are on tap
for next Saturday at 1 o'clock. The
meet will be at Ramsey High
School with some very good coin-
Thursday, April 24, 1969
petition. 'But Bethel plans on run-ning
up the most points. And it
would be very good to see some
boosters at the track.
Oh, and yes, Dave Pearson did
take first place again in last Sat-urday's
TRACK—Gustavus Relays
Gustavus 106, Bethel 92, Augsburg
83, Duluth 39, Concordia 15, Mor-ris
Shot Put: 1) Olsen 45'10 3/4" 5) tie—
D. Nelson and J. Carlson
High Jump: 1) Pearson 6' 1/4"
440 I.H.: 1) Gust. 57.2 2) Fredeen
Pole Vault: 1) Aug. 13'6" 5) Larson
10' 6"
Javelin: 1) Swedberg 170'3" 3) J.
Carlson 140' 8"
440 relay: 1) Bethel��Pound, Camp-bell,
Fredeen, Olsen :45
880 relay: 1) Gust. 1:33.2 2) Bethel
—Pound, Pearson, Fredeen, Ol-sen
Shuttle: 1) Gust. 1:03.8 2) Bethel—
Lehman, Larson, Fredeen, Pound
Distance Medley: 1) Aug. 11:10.3 2)
Bethel—Campbell, Berggren, Ol-son,
Carlson 11:26.3
Discus: 1) Gust. 130' 103/4" 2) Swed-berg
116' 93/4" 3) Nelson 116' 1 1/2"
3 Mile: 1) Aug. 15:28.8 5) Carlson
Mile Relay: 1) Bethel— Campbell,
Fredeen, Berggren, Pound 3:26.8*
Long Jump: 1) Gust. 22' 8 3/4" 3)
Fredeen 21' 41/2" 4) Pearson 20' 8"
Triple Jump: 1) Gust. 43' 1" 2) Leh-man
42' 93/4" 3) Pearson 42' 5"
Golf Box
Hamline-17 Bethel-1
Out In Tot Pts.
B Anderson 45 46 91 0
H Laufenburger 37 38 75 3
B Peterson 44 40 84 1/2
H Schultz 37 41 78 2I/2
B Finch 45 40 85 Yz
H Alberts 37 42 79 21/2
B Loomis 45 46 91 0
H Judd 40 41 81 3
B Lindberg 51 43 94 0
H Linblom 37 39 76 3
B Sitte 45 45 90 0
Bensman 42 38 80 3
Outfielders gather 11
Bethel raised its 1969 baseball
record above .500 last Saturday as
they unleashed a powerful hitting
barrage to topple Lea College at
Albert Lea in a double header.
The Royals uncorked 25 hits and
18 runs to sweep the unprecedented
laugher. (That's baseball jargon
for a lop sided score).
In the first game, Bethel won
7-i on the strength of the 5-hit
pitching of Lowell Richardson. Six
of the ten men who played had
two or three hits. Bill Painter had
the big hit of the game when he
singled with the bases loaded in
the fifth inning. He went on to
score the fourth run of the inning
on Bob Brodin's single.
Gary Clark opened the game by
scoring an unearned run in the
first inning. In the following frame,
Doug Warring, who reached base
on an error, came home on a hit
by Dean Ericson.
The sixth inning was the fluke
as the Royals rapped off four
straight singles, made an out, and
got another single. However, slop-py
base running kept Bethel away
from the plate and they scored only
once. Two base runners were cut
down at the plate.
Lea's lone run came in the fifth
inning on a walk, stolen base, and
a single.
Richardson's route going perfor-mance
gives him a 2-1 record on
the year.
In the second game of the twin-bill,
Lea capitalized on errors to
chalk up 6 unearned runs to make
the game a little less one sided.
But their defense was not flawless
either. In the first inning, Bethel
jumped to a three run lead without
getting hit. Two walks, two hit
batsmen, and two errors by the
shortstop gave Bethel its tainted
lead. Randy Stauter walked with
the sacks filled to be credited with
the inning's only RBI.
The fourth inning came off a
little better as Bethel did earn one
of the two runs. Ericson scored
on a ground out after being advanc-ed
to third by the singling Gary
Clark. However, another infield
error gave Bethel life and put
Clark in scoring position for Steve
Hanson who brought him home
with a base hit.
Hanson picked up his second
RBI of the game in the sixth by
knocking in Bill Englund. That
run tied the game at 6-all after
Lea finished its scoring in the
fifth inning.
Thus, the stage was set and
Bethel came off with a big five-run
rally to ice the game. With
Jim Delich on base by a fielder's
choice, Gary Clark picked up his
fifth hit for the afternoon. Bill
Englund made first on a fielder's
choice which failed to pick off
a man. Bill Painter came up and
did a repeat performance of the
first game by singling in two runs.
With three hits under his belt,
Lea intentionally walked Steve
Hanson. Then, the big blow of the
game was a double by Doug War-ring
to clear the sacks of three
more base runners. Bethel only
had nine hits in the game, but
eight of them figured in the scor-ing.
Bob Brodin joined Richardson
by taking his second win of the
young season.
Track squad earns runner-up spot
Strong hitting attack dumps Lea
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text:
Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) is an illness caused by a newly discovered virus in the same family as SARS. Most of the documented cases have come from Saudi Arabia, which has seen a 54 percent mortality rate in those patients. Martin Cetron, director of the Division of Global Migration and Quarantine at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, discusses the emerging virus.
MERS Virus Update
By editor • Jul 26, 2013

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Official calls for more education funding
The largest association of Connecticut cities and towns is calling on a state task force to recommend increased funding for public education, despite a continuing drop in state revenues. James Finley, executive director of the Connecticut Conference of Municipalities, said Tuesday that the Education Cost Sharing grant, the largest pool of state aid for local education, is underfunded by more than $763 million. That means local property taxpayers cover the difference. Finley said the state does not need to fully fund the Education Cost Sharing formula right away. He said it can be spread out over a number of years. (AP)


text:
Wednesday, November 17, 2010
Two Minute Drill
* Brian at MGoBlog presents Senior Day Haiku (we're always trying to help some of the smaller Michigan blogs get a little traffic)
* Tony Gerdman's Michigan Monday - Check out his comment on the special teams and the call right before the half. Said the same thing as we were watching the game (correction, Gerd: the Michigan D gave up ZERO offensive TDs to Purdue last Saturday, not one. Their lone TD was a Denard pick-six)
* The Wiz was in West Lafayette for the Purdue game and took a lot of pix.
* You know how Michigan State has a reputation as a party school? Well it's not thanks to these guys.
* If you haven't seen it already, this middle school trick play is the best you'll probably see this year.
* Remember college?
I love how the slipper-boots match the trash can.
8 comments:
- Andy said...
Sorry for the lack of wallpaper today.
I am on the road and didn't get it done.
- November 17, 2010 7:51 AM
- surrounded in columbus said...
looking at the "remember college" pic, i couldn't help but notice that her toilet paper roll is empty. this will not end well.
also pleased to note that isn't my daughter, either. so i'm 2-2 in avoiding seeing her on the web page.
only 3 & half more years to go...
- November 17, 2010 9:02 AM
- BaggyPantsDevil said...
She must have been part of the test audience for Colin Cowherd's sitcom.
Did you notice who was #9? John Cooper. I miss him. :(
- November 17, 2010 9:21 AM
- GoBlueBob said...
T9 will not be happy you gave Yost this photo of her......
BPD....If Cooper could have beaten Michigan a little more consistently he would be at the same level as Carr.
- November 17, 2010 9:39 AM
- Andy said...
Not true.... T9 has wicker trash baskets.
- November 17, 2010 11:24 AM
- Mikoyan said...
why is it that when there's talk of great coaches, Rockne gets mentioned but never Crisler or Yost? I mean Rockne was too chicken shit to face either coach...:)
- November 17, 2010 12:14 PM
- whetstonebuck said...
Don't set yourself up for crushing disappointment. There are many years ahead, overflowing with ample opportunities, wherein your daughter can embarrass you. We just never know how they will invest those fifteen minutes of fame. Relax. Don't tighten your sphincter until it's necessary.
- November 17, 2010 2:58 PM
- surrounded in columbus said...
thanks. i feel much better.
considering i have a 17 yr old stepson & 16 yr old daughter still high school, the possibilities are statistically endless...
- November 17, 2010 4:08 PM


text:
June 23, 2006
"Perhaps it's time to rethink the whole 'law school as default' mentality that infects so many otherwise sane young minds."
52 comments:
- tjl said...
Stracher points out that the number of practicing lawyers at present is roughly equal to the number of inmates in state prison. What an apt comparison. I've often thought of myself in terms like that while churning out some really thankless project like responses to discovery.
What Stracher fails to address is that law school actually is the default option for college graduates with some otherwise lifeless degree in English or Politicval Science. There aren't all that many other practical options.
- MadisonMan said...
I especially liked the comparison of keeping your options open meaning You can still be a lawyer. I've heard the keep your options open line a lot around grad schools, and it really does mean You can still do what you're studying for when you're all done.
It seems like changing your mind about what to do for a living is sometimes really discouraged if you've invested several years in schooling. It shouldn't be.
- Joseph Hovsep said...
Rather than keeping options open, the crushing debt of law school often slams doors shut, pushing law students to find the highest-paying job they can and forever deferring dreams of anything else.
This is something that an early-twenty-something considering law school will probably hear today if he or she seeks out advice, but it can be hard to fathom what that kind of debt really means until you're paying it back. The fault partially lies in this inexperience/optimism, as well as with the easy access to enormous amounts of debt.
One good thing about the legal profession is that, in my experience, lawyers have been very honest-if cynical-when advising young people whether to go to law school. I was a bit taken aback by how many lawyers I talked to before law school confided that they thought they had made a mistake by going to law school, that they felt trapped, that I should do something more fun if I had the chance. And these were so-called "elite" lawyers.
- Joseph Hovsep said...
Law school may hurt your chances in the dating pool as well.
- John said...
The whole article strikes me as very biased towards a big city, New York, Chicago, Washington attitude.
For example, the legal profession is really only the elite lawyers and glorified paralegals? I work in a medium sized firm in a medium sized midwestern city. I know I'm not in the "legal elite", if that means a multi-national firm, but I believe I'm more than a "quasi-legal" paralegal or clerk.
Honestly, the legal profession is much like any other profession-there are good places to work, bad places to work, and many in between.
In addition, the cost-benefit analysis ($38,000 per year in tuition only) may be accurate for a tier one private school, but is not accurate for a lower tier state school.
In addition, I'm curious the salary difference between an associate in a big firm in a big city with private school debt versus an associate in a medium firm in a medium city with public school debt. I'm the later, yet comfortably middle to upper middle class. Rich? Of course not, but happy never the less.
Remember, law school may not be for everyone, but there is more to the legal profession than making it into Harvard or Yale and hitting a 500 lawyer firm in NYC. Those of us practicing in "fly-over" country, along with bankers, small business owners, and millions of others actually are a huge part of the American economy.
Equating the legal profession to elite lawyer or paralegal is somewhat like equating the opportunities for a businessperson as starting Microsoft or struggling shopclerk. There is life in the middle.
Drive through the midwest sometime-there are many happy lawyers who skipped the entire big firm, big city thing all together.
- Dave said...
When I thought of applying to law school, everyone who I consulted on the matter, with the exception of one insane masochist, said that I should do something else with my life.
They were all miserable with the law.
But then they were alll big city corporte litigators unhappy with their large paychecks.
- Pogo said...
So, lawyers hate their jobs, too?
I wonder what job people really love, I mean frequently?
- Simon said...
I suppose the question would be, if fewer people applied, would prices rise or fall? The market would seem to dictate that they would have to fall, but I can think of a few reasons why they might, in fact, rise.
Of the "things keep me out of law school," there are two things foremost in my mind. The first is that it is massively, crushingly, chokingly expensive; John may well be right that the $114k figure may apply only to top shelf schools, but even if you have a school that charges only half that much, that is still massively, crushingly and chokingly expensive. And thus the second - as a corollary to the first - is that law school is full of people who want to make lots of money. And I suppose that is inevitable and unsurprising: if you're going to spend three miserable years paying through the ass to listen to three lectures by some fourth-rate hack teaching critical legal studies (or any number of "soft law" classes, which is to say, "not law at all" classes) for every one bright, shining class of CrimPro or ConLaw (the latter being likely as not to be spoiled by watching some quasi-Brennanite lecturer indoctrinating the younglings), and graduate into - in Michael Dorf's phrase - "the ranks of one of the most hated professions in history," under a pile of debt comparable to the mortgage on a decent-sized house in a nice suburb, it should hardly be surprising that these people want to make money. As our Fearless Leader said earlier in the year, behind every Georgetown gradute are two parents perilously close to bankrupcy. It is no wonder that such people want to make a pile of money instead of going into public service; you could scarcely design a system better calculated to create a torts boom.
There are many, many things which make me think law school would be a wonderful and enjoyable experience; removing the people who aren't there because they're genuinely interested in law, and removing the people who went because they want to make money and see being a bloodsucking injury practise as their ticket, with a possible concommitant fall in prices, would be a wonderful step in my view.
- Dave said...
corporate lawyers that is.
Another reason not to go to law school: the opportunities in business are so much greater.
My father did bankruptcy and antitrust litigation for 25 years.
He'd often remark to me that he would be sitting in a meeting with the heads of large companies, and would know that he and his fellow lawyers would be viewed with, at best, skepticism, and at worst, derision.
Not a fun place to be.
- David said...
"law school actually is the default option for college graduates with some otherwise lifeless degree in English or Politicval Science. There aren't all that many other practical options"..sure there are, if the individual is able to avoid the snobbery trap. Business-to-business sales, for example, can be very lucrative, and for a person with an independent spirit, may be a lot more fun than lawyering.
- CB said...
From the article:
"It's time those of us inside the profession did a better job of telling others outside the profession that most of us don't earn $160,000 a year, that we can't afford expensive suits, flashy cars, sexy apartments. We don't lunch with rock stars or produce movies."
What kind of morans actually think that? They deserve to be disappointed. I agree with John-- the columnist seems to think that the only schools that matter are the top 10 and the only places that matter are the east & west coasts. (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth John)
- Dale B said...
I'm not sure that this sort of thing is limited to Law School, or even grad school, or, for that matter, any undergraduate degree. I am an electrical engineer and have been working as an engineer since I graduated with a BS 25 years ago. There are very few practicing engineers that fit this profile.
In my experience, about 20% of engineering graduates don't even pursue an engineering job. Of those who get an engineering job, roughly half leave the profession in 6-10 years because they hate the work. Of those who stay in the field, most will move into management, sometimes technical management and often non-technical management. Most don't make this move because they like management but because it's an easy way to escape being an engineer.
This also seems to be true for other jobs, at least in my experience, be it accounting, purchasing, marketing, or sales.
The chances that the career choice you make in your early twenties will last for the rest of your life are quite small.
- the pooka said...
I wonder what job people really love, I mean frequently?
College professors.
(Right, Ann?)
- Abraham said...
I distinctly recall in middle school when we had a "job fair," and various people came in from the community to give fifteen-minute spiels about their work, what they do, and what kind of training is required. Even at that young age, I was interested in law and government, and went to the session hosted by one of our local attorneys, who was also the city attorney.
He spent almost the entire session talking about plumbers - how a person becomes an apprentice, learns, works, and eventually becomes a master plumber, while getting paid during all of his work training. He mentioned that becoming a lawyer takes a lot of school, a lot of non-earing time, and a lot of money. His conclusion: "If you want to earn a lot of money, become a plumber."
Not that I took his advice, of course - and actually being interested in law and government, logical thinking and analysis, I came to be somewhat unhappy in law school, which was depressingly focused on work, and status. And in fact I'm not practicing, and am not sure I ever will.
- Jim said...
Funny, I went to UT Austin law school because it was real cheap and seemed like fun! In fact, a major motivator for my attending was that I was sick of my tax dollars going to pay for others' three cushy years.
That was in 1979, when tuition was something like $500 per year. Before, during and after law school I supported myself just fine doing computer engineering and have averaged some 28 weeks vacation per year throughout my professional career of 35 years.
I can't imagine how hard it must be for a patent law firm to find some physicist to work for 2500 billable hours per year, which is what they offered me the one time I was crazy enough to interview at a patent law firm!
- Simon said...
"My father did bankruptcy and antitrust litigation for 25 years. He'd often remark to me that he would be sitting in a meeting with the heads of large companies, and would know that he and his fellow lawyers would be viewed with, at best, skepticism, and at worst, derision."
Indeed; and for those who really want the thrill of being "viewed with, at best, skepticism, and at worst, derision" can experience that feeling for considerably less money than law school tuition by walking into any branch of McDonalds and placing a special order.
- Simon said...
"I can't imagine how hard it must be for a patent law firm to find some physicist to work for 2500 billable hours per year, which is what they offered me the one time I was crazy enough to interview at a patent law firm!"
It does make you wonder: if less people are going to law school, as I mentioned above, that might drive down tuition, but I wonder what effect it might have on the business model of these practises which require crazy amounts of billable hours per week. If there are less garduates, will that make it a seller's market, where firms will be forced to accept lawyers who aren't willing to kill themselves for the firm, or will it do the opposite, precisely because smaller numbers of graduates will lead to fewer graduates in more specialized fields to divide the work between?
- Paddy O. said...
My suspicion is that the jobs people love the most are the ones which are the most difficult to get a paycheck for doing.
That being the case I think the jobs where people work to improve the lives of other people tend to rank high on the happiness scale. Most teachers I know love being teachers, for instance.
Only these aren't the sorts of jobs, except for doctors I suppose, which young folks are told they should pursue. It takes until one is in their thirties, I think, for most people to realize themselves and to really discover what it is they want to do rather than what they should do. By that point there are often far too many barriers to leaving the "should do".
- Dave said...
Simon: LOL.
This is why I don't eat fast food.
Or, rather, one of the reasons.
- Simon said...
"He spent almost the entire session talking about plumbers - how a person becomes an apprentice, learns, works, and eventually becomes a master plumber, while getting paid during all of his work training. He mentioned that becoming a lawyer takes a lot of school, a lot of non-earing time, and a lot of money. His conclusion: "If you want to earn a lot of money, become a plumber.""
On the other hand, though, there are similarities between the trades. Both are professions that people bemoan until they need one, and then when they hire you, mutter darkly about how much it's costing them when you're not looking. As a plumber, you get to wear uncomfortable overalls; as a lawyer, you get to wear uncomfortable suits. As a plumber, you get to do boring work; as a lawyer, you may have to do probate stuff. As a plumber, you look at your raw materials and think "what would Blue Man Group do with this?"; as lawyer, you look at your raw materials and think "what would Justice Scalia / Brennan [delete to taste] do with this?". And, of course, as a plumber you may have to do extraordinarily unpleasent tasks like sticking your hand down toilets and crawling around in sewers, and as a lawyer, you may have to work with personal injury lawyers. On balance, maybe plumber have it better.
- John said...
That's exactly what I meant.
But then, practicing here in the midwest, billing 1700 hours a year, decently paid, leaving work by 6 every day, working on interesting litigation matters,and still making partner...
Well, I love my job, so I may be biased.
- J said...
"The whole article strikes me as very biased towards a big city, New York, Chicago, Washington attitude"
And in the discussion of money too - somebody making 60K in Lubbock or Wichita probably doesn't have a significantly lower standard of living than than somebody making 165K in Manhattan, especially if their debtr load is much lighter.
- Dave said...
The Wall St. Journal (which publisjes OpinionJournal.com) has a discussion board about this ver topic, here
- Dave said...
Wow I really should check my typing before I post shouldn't I?
- Jeff said...
Way back in high school, there was a kid who went to vo-tech, and worked nights for his dad who owned his own plumbing business. By the time his peers were graduating college, he had been an journeyman plumber for a couple of years and was working on his master. He also owned a couple of houses and lived in one that he had paid off. By the time his peers (the ones that made fun of him in high school) got out of law school he owned his own business and had people working for him. This was 20 years ago. If he wanted to, he could have retired by 30. He is still working, he has always done new construction so has never had to do the dirtier parts of plumbing, and is very happy and has been for the last 20 years. There is a lot to be said about being a plumber.
- Ann Althouse said...
Pogo said..."So, lawyers hate their jobs, too?
I wonder what job people really love, I mean frequently?"
Law professor.
- Bruce Hayden said...
Maybe a lot of those who go to law school these days go for the money, but my experience was that there were a lot of law students who started law school with the intent to change the world, or work as a PD, etc. But something about the competition and the atmosphere changed many of them so that by the end of the first year, they too were competing for the top jobs paying the outrageous salaries.
I went to law school knowing what it meant to be a lawyer, my father ultimately practicing for 47 years. So, I grew up knowing a lot of lawyers, judges, etc. And even though it was hard work, I had a lot of fun there.
Finally, I ended up in patent law, and enjoy it. It allows me to be a technology junkie. Also, I get to work with some of the brightest people around. Since I work mostly for myself, it also allows me a lifestyle that I wouldn't have in most other vocations - for example, I get to ski quite a bit every winter.
I did work as a software engineer for 15 years before that, but ultimately I found that I was burning out, and couldn't see doing that for another 25 years. I can work at patent law at a much more controlled pace and don't see ever burning out. Indeed, I hope to be able to do what my father did, and a number of patent attorneys I know are doing, which is to work into my 70s.
- Ann Althouse said...
Why is the debt for a law school education seen as "crushing" because it's comparable to a mortgage? People routinely buy houses on borrowed money, and the house doesn't create a flow of income to use to pay off the debt. Are they crushed? In fact, a house the price of a law school education wouldn't even be a very nice house! Education is one of the things that is MOST worth borrowing money for. And remember law students are able to earn money in their summers, often in the range of $35,000 for a mere 10 weeks of work. They graduate and make more than their teachers who have 20 years' experience. And the whole process only took 3 years. Compare that to PhD programs with much less earning potential. I mean, don't be a fool and go into an area of law practice that you don't like, but please don't whine about law school. It's well worth it. If you don't want a certain type of teacher, take somebody else. You'll have a choice for most courses. None of my students are people who didn't pick me.
- katiebakes said...
I think this is completely accurate. I graduated a year ago, and the vast majority of my friends who went to law school, in my estimation, did so because they didn't really know what else to do.
Not like many of those who go into finance do so for any different reason...
- Bruce Hayden said...
I think a lot of lawyers do hate their jobs. There is a lot to hate (not in patent law, but otherwise), including cynicism, long hours, boring work, and in many parts of the law, experiencing a lot of aggression. Indeed, I have always wondered about all the women going to law school - a lot of them can't be all that happy with the level of agression required for a lot of the practice of law. (Yes, I am being a bit sexist here, but I am also intentionally not talking percentages - I don't know if this is 10% or 90%, just that much of the practice of law requires this, and men seem to enjoy it more, on average).
Another problem with being a lawyer is that you have to deal with lawyers on a regular basis. Not only the loyal opposition, but those on your side too. In many firms, you have to watch your back a lot more than your front. Innumerable lawyers are thrown out of firms or firms break up for no sin greater than that some other lawyers in the firm covet their business or the money you are making. I doubt that there are many professions out there where the practitioners are any where as vicious to those on their own side. And it isn't easy for many to live in this sort of environment.
- Jillene said...
As a nearly graduated professional student (not law), this mentality among young twenty somethings is very common. A common comment is that they don't know what else they would like to do so they thought they would try pharmacy, medical, or law school. I don't believe this is the brightest idea and I do my civic duty by pointing this out. It is very expensive (150,000/8 years...ouch!), you should actually want to care for people if you go into a profession that in some way takes care of people, it should never be about how much money you make but what makes you professionally fulfilled and happy, and contrary to popular belief none of these endeavors will be easy even if you are genius. And honestly, genuises are usually not very empathetic which is a good prereq when dealing with people.
- Pogo said...
1. You're right about the ROI aspect when borrowing money for a professional degree. It's like any business: you have to invest in it to make it grow. It's a good thing to have debt to service when you're clearing cash over and above the debt (as opposed to never having been able to go at all, and being debt-free, but vocation-free).
2. I'm glad there are folks who love their work. I used to, but that's not because of any problem with my profession per se, because I notice that many of the people here who work 50-75% time are in fact much happier. So it's the hours, not the work.
- the pooka said...
Compare that to PhD programs with much less earning potential.
But, of course, these days most people don't go heavily into debt for a Ph.D. -- my advice to my students is, if you aren't funded by a (Ph.D.) program, don't go there.
I generally agree with Ann's point, though; debt from law school really isn't much of an issue (at least, no more so than student loan debt more generally). Most of my students go to law school, and when I talk to them later, most of them seem very happy to have done so.
- Abraham said...
Law school is a good ROI if you actually end up practicing law. But I thought the point of the discussion was that too many people go to law school who don't really have that much of an interest in practicing law, simply because it seems like a good investment. But then they either have to work at a job they don't like to make it pay off, or it turns out to be a poor investment and costs them a great deal.
- Eli Blake said...
pogo (9:00), pooka (9:31) and ann (12:19).
Pretty much right on the nose. I love teaching math at a community college. It certainly doesn't pay that well, but the daily academic stimulation and chance to work with young people makes it a wonderful job.
My suggestion for a young person who hasn't figured out what they want to do but has a desire to make some 'progress' would be to enter a trades program like construction, plumbing or auto repair. If you do that, the cost won't be nearly as high, and you are guaranteed that someday you will be grateful for what you learned-- and probably save some significant money when that day comes, too.
- tjl said...
Bruce Hayden described:
"Cynicism, long hours, boring work, and ..aggression."
By law this phrase should be inscribed over the gates of every law school, like the warning on packs of cigarettes.
- David said...
Regarding ROI: when a field is financially attractive, it tends to encourage a lot more people to go into it, shifting the supply-demand balance and eventually making it *less* financially attractive. Since it seems every random liberal arts grad is thinking about law school, isn't it likely that this will happen in law?
Yeah, there will still be big starting salaries for a small number of top grads of top schools, but overall, it's hard to believe it will be sustainable. A fundamental truth about investment is that above-market returns tend to get competed away.
- Maxine Weiss said...
Ann, you chided me when I brought this up two months ago. ---When I said law school was a holding tank etc...
Anyone who isn't pre-med gets herded in.
Doesn't an MBA mean anything any more?
Has anyone read Cameron Stracher's two books? I have. He is great. He wrote 'The Laws Of Return', and 'Double Billion'.
He is someone to listen to.
- Simon said...
"Why is the debt for a law school education seen as "crushing" because it's comparable to a mortgage? People routinely buy houses on borrowed money, and the house doesn't create a flow of income to use to pay off the debt. Are they crushed?"
Peoplpe routinely buy houses that they can't, in fact, afford, and they are routinely financially crushed by it, yes. It's all well and good to say that law school is an investment, but that's like saying that investing $30,000 in WalMart is a good investment - it's only a good investment if you've got $30,000. And like investing in WalMart, "investing" in law school is gambling money on future returns, which may or may not accrue (about which, more in a moment).
"In fact, a house the price of a law school education wouldn't even be a very nice house!"
Weren't other commenters just complaining about the big city / east coast mentality suffusing the article? ;) The answer is "it depends where you live." My wife and I have a very nice house in the suburbs, with a nice parcel of land and more than adequate space for a family of three humans and three cats), bought all in for less than $80k, which we have seen is less than some schools charge in tuition (the only compromise I've had to make is that I can't have a separate music studio and study/library - the horror!). A comparable house in Boston, Chicago, or maybe even Madison, would probably cost many, many times more, and comparable square footage (you couldn't get comparable premises; see comments here) in New York would probably cost the Earth. It depends entirely where you live and what law school you're talking about.
"[R]emember law students are able to earn money in their summers, often in the range of $35,000 for a mere 10 weeks of work. They graduate and make more than their teachers who have 20 years' experience. And the whole process only took 3 years. Compare that to PhD programs with much less earning potential. I mean, don't be a fool and go into an area of law practice that you don't like.
Well, I would want to teach. But that's precisely the problem: I mentioned above that investing that sort of money is gambling on future returns, and in order to go to law school, you have to pay for law school. And in order to pay for it, you have to spend at lesat a few years (likely working simply crazy hours) in whatever practise has the highest returns. How can anyone who approves of sky-high tuition complain about disreputable practise (personal injury, etc.), or about the dearth of students wanting to return to academia or go into public service? Law graduates - in general, but particularly those who aren't in their twenties and already have mortgages to pay and families to support - are forced at gunpoint (the bank manager holds the gun) into whatever work can pay back the afore-mentioned crushing debt (and IMO, all debt is crushing, be it worthwhile or not).
Without meaning to excessively personalize what is meant as a general point, but to use my own position as an exemplar: since appellate litigation isn't really an option, I would want to teach. However, it's a challenge to meet mortgage payments, car payments, vets bills, insurance premiums, and all the other financial drains of grown-up life that your average twenty-something law grad has scarcely begun to think about, and then on top of that find the money to pay back another mortgaged-sized debt, on what your average junior faculty makes in a year (not to mention the question of how those bills will be met while I'm off having a grand old time at law school for three years, and thus not actually bringing home any bacon). For me, going to law school would be a sacrifice if it were free, for the time I'd have to spend away from my family; add in the crippling financial cost, and the lack of options for repayment that don't involve tedium (probate, patents) or debasement (ambulance chasing), and it simply isn't an option for me, and I suspect, for anyone else who would be entering school as what are euphemistically called "mature students".
(I go down to U-Ind. every now and again, which is where I'd go if I went, since I have friends and occaisional professional commitments there; every time I do, I make a point of swinging by the book shop and grabbing something from the legal section, and every time I do, since that means going on campus, I'm struck by how much younger the students always seem to look each time I go.)
"If you don't want a certain type of teacher, take somebody else. You'll have a choice for most courses. None of my students are people who didn't pick me."
Ann, if I went to U-Wisc, I'd have to take conlaw twice: once with you, for fun and argument, and once without you, because I'm not certain you'd pass me. ;)
- altoids1306 said...
I can't help but see the parallels to grad school. The key difference is, of course, engineering/science Ph.Ds don't incur debts (which seems to be the primary thrust of the article - career choices limited by debt).
But I think the mentality of "I'm not quite sure what I want to do, keep my options open, wait and see" is quite prevalent in grad school as well.
You're average physics Ph.D doesn't make as much as a lawyer, but, on the other hand, he/she has no shortage of jobs - if they can't find a job in the physics community, investment banks snap them up instantly. One of the rare instances where the higher-paying job is universally recognized as the less-desiriable one.
- Simon said...
Abraham said...
"Law school is a good ROI if you actually end up practicing law."
Not quite - law school is a good ROI if you actually end up practicing law in an area of practise that is both reasonably well-compensated and enjoyable to you. If you don't mind doing a boring job you hate, an application to Family Video is no worse an ROI.
- Wade_Garrett said...
A lot of practicing lawyers advised me not to go to law school, but they were all 55 years old, drove luxury cars and owned large houses. My father was one of them. At the time, I attributed it to a grass-is-greener mentality -- these lawyers were clearly doing very well for themselves, and they couldn't have disliked it all that much if they were still doing it six days a week 30 years after graduating from law school. So, I applied to law school. I'm clerking for Eliot Spitzer,and I really like it so far, but I'm earning in an entire summer what my roommate at Jones Day earns in ONE WEEK. After my liberal arts undergraduate education, I find law school to be pretty repetitive, and more about getting grades and getting jobs than about actual learning. If one more good friend of mine joins a journal or law review that he absolutely hates because "it'll look good on the resume" I might lose it.
- ignacio said...
This thread is fascinating to me. Please continue and elaborate.
- Wade_Garrett said...
Professor Althouse - I generally like going to the University of Wisconsin law school, but there isn't as much choice as you seem to imply. In the fall of my first year, I had seven hours of class on Tuesday and six hours on thursday, and there's nothing like capping off a long day with two hours of research and writing followed by two hours of civil procedure lecture to basically grind all of the gears in your brain to a halt. Those classes are fine in and of themselves, but seven hours of active learning in a day is a lot, particularly when most of it sounds as if its in a foreign language, which is how I felt about the first couple of months of law school.
Civil Procedure was my worst grade in law school, and I attribute it to the fact that my brain was fried at the START of every class, no matter how well I prepared for it. I really liked Professor Clauss, but at that time of day, a civil procedure class team taught by Angelina Jolie and Jack Nicholson couldn't have kept my attention.
Furthermore, a lot of the comments (reasonably) speak of the quality of life that lawyers at mid-sized firms in mid-sized cities enjoy. My father, a partner at a 60-something attorney firm in Buffalo, New York, loves his work. But, when you're a law student, and the only employers who your school brings to OCI are either 1000 attorney international superfirms (all of which are interested in interviewing the same 30 or 40 students) or else public interest law offices that expect you to work for free, you can see how law students despair about their future. Count me as one of that group.
- Maxine Weiss said...
Ann---"the house doesn't create a flow of income to use to pay off the debt".
You don't know California Real Estate.
In California, a house is a much better investment than law school.
I don't understand why law schools haven't embraced the whole 'distance learning' and 'correspondence' course methods.
Since we've alreay agreed that everything that goes on in the law school classroom has nothing to do with firm life.....
And in California, you don't need to even go to law school to take the Bar. You can be a secretary/paralegal (for 3, 5 years?).....and then go right ahead and take the Bar.
I don't think Gloria Allred went to law school (either her or some other famous female attorney).
For whatever that's worth.
Peace, Maxine
- Ricardo said...
There's nothing wrong with "looking at life through the eyes of a lawyer" (even if not practicing), just as there is nothing wrong with "looking at life through the eyes of an artist". In fact, there's a lot to be said for being able to view and analyze life through those windows.
- amba said...
I had several friends like that in the late '60s/'70s/early '80s, Ann, and they were mostly failed artists -- writers, filmmakers. I don't mean "failed" in the sense that they lacked talent or ability; they lacked the confidence, or the obsessive monomaniacal certainty about what they wanted to do, and especially they lost the youthful ability to tolerate not making much of a living, or to make a living at a succession of odd jobs.
- Ann Althouse said...
Terry: "In the fall of my first year, I had seven hours of class on Tuesday and six hours on thursday, and there's nothing like capping off a long day with two hours of research and writing followed by two hours of civil procedure lecture to basically grind all of the gears in your brain to a halt."
That's terrible. I didn't know we did that. I'll look into it.
Simon: "Ann, if I went to U-Wisc, I'd have to take conlaw twice: once with you, for fun and argument, and once without you, because I'm not certain you'd pass me. ;)"
Simon, we have a curve. When it comes time to enter the grades, I follow the rules. And I give relative short reading assignments. I just try to make people think really hard about what they've read and to engage with it and talk about it. I don't really know why this gives me a reputation of being hard, but it does.
- AJD said...
You love being a law professor, huh. Seems to me that what you love is tenure. Tenure is what allows you to spend all your time blogging and making comments like "I wouldn't trust anything a law professor writes."
And on grading: since you have a curve, no professor is actually "tougher" than any other professor. That's the essence of a curve.
WV: hypocrt
- Ann Althouse said...
AJD: You're a bit dim. You don't understand the quote. Try harder.
- Zach said...
Agreed on the physics thing. Sometimes I worry that I'm secretly a quantitative finance grad student, and when I finally graduate they'll be waiting for me with a wool suit, a cigar, and confetti: "SURPRISE!"
One thing that grad school has convinced me of -- if you don't seriously enjoy geeking out in your area of specialty, the time and effort won't be worth it. If you do enjoy it, you'll have a blast. You'll be like the people who hang around in college towns after graduation enjoying the scene, except you're working as a grad student instead of a waiter. There are worse ways to spend a couple of years.
Of course, in physics grad school pays a (small) liveable wage, so you don't have to worry about cash flow as much.
- Simon said...
"I just try to make people think really hard about what they've read and to engage with it and talk about it. I don't really know why this gives me a reputation of being hard, but it does."
ConLaw ought to be tough. It ought to be taught with rigorous expectations. It's important; ConLaw is the class in law school like the class in nuclear physics school where they teach you how to not cause a meltdown - that's the one you don't want to skip or scrimp on the test for.


text:
BELVIDERE (WIFR) -- Michael Doyle, a journalism teacher and publications advisor at Belvidere North High School, was named as a 2012 Symetra Hero in the Classroom for exemplary leadership and instructional skills. Symetra, in partnership with the Chicago Bears, honored Mr. Doyle on November 14. Mr. Doyle was nominated for the award by senior Danielle Harris, co-editor-in-chief of The North View, the school's newspaper.
Among the gifts provided by Symetra and the Chicago Bears was a check for $1,000 to the school, a personalized jersey for Mr. Doyle and two tickets to this Sunday's Bears-Vikings game. He will be recognized during the game on the Bears' scoreboard.
The Symetra Heroes in the Classroom program honors k-12 teachers in three other NFL markets: Seattle, Atlanta, and San Francisco. Each football season 16 teachers are selected in support of programs that make differences in the lives of students and teachers.


text:
The first Homo sapiens appeared on the planet some 200,000 years ago. But even though they looked fully human, they didn't act fully human until they began creating symbolic art, some 100,000 years later. Paleoanthropologist Ian Tattersall discusses those human origins in his book Masters of the Planet.
How Homo Sapiens Became 'Masters Of The Planet'
By editor • Apr 6, 2012


text:
There's nothing more satisfying than curling up on a chilly fall day with a bowl of your favorite soul-warming soup. 'Tis the season for rich, hearty stews and soups featuring pumpkin, potatoes, sausage, and any other deliciously comforting ingredient. Here are 20 different fall recipes we love.
Curried Squash And Apple Soup
Short Rib and Barley Stew
Curried Lentil Soup with Chickpea Purée
Sichuan-Style Chicken Noodle Soup
Curried Sweet Potato and Brown Rice Soup
Curried Celeriac Soup
Curly Kale and Potato Soup with Sausage
Chestnut, Pumpkin, and Farro
Pumpkin and Leek Soup
Quick Tortilla Soup
Roasted Butternut Squash Soup
White Bean and Tarragon Soup
Chickpea Flour Soup from Provence
Acorn Squash Soup with Brown Butter and Maple Yogurt
Gingered Butternut Soup
Agreeably Simple Potato Leek Soup
Squash and Fennel Soup with Candied Pumpkin Seeds
Carrot Vichyssoise
Cheddar Beer Soup
Sausage and Sauerkraut Stew