text:
The Ed Show for Thursday, April 12, 2012
Read the transcript to the Thursday show
Guests: Howard Fineman, Joe Biden, Maxine Waters, Terry O`Neill, Daryl Parks, Ruth Conniff,
Catherine Crier
ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW tonight from Boston.
My exclusive interview with Vice President Joe Biden will have you
talking tomorrow. This is a big F-ing deal.
This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Governor Romney
calls the president out of touch. Hey, how many of y`all have a Swiss bank
SCHULTZ (voice-over): The vice president was stumping for fairness
today in New Hampshire. And then he sat down for a wide-ranging interview.
(on camera): What`s your position on stand your ground? So the war
on women is real?
A Democratic operative said that Mitt Romney`s wife, Ann Romney,
hasn`t worked a day in her life. We know the story. She raised five boys
at home. What`s your response to that?
(voice-over): Tonight, Vice President Joe Biden in his own words and
its an ED SHOW exclusive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Zimmerman, you`re appearing here for your
first appearance at this time for a charge of murder in the second degree.
SCHULTZ: George Zimmerman shows his face in court. There are big
developments in his case. Martin family attorney Daryl Parks has the
And Scott Walker is so scared of getting fired, he`s running ads
against two opponents.
NARRATOR: For eight years, Tom Barrett has led Milwaukee backwards.
Kathleen Falk raised property taxes every single year.
SCHULTZ: We`ll have all of the major developments out of Wisconsin
and the vice president weighs in on the recall.
SCHULTZ: Good evening, folks. Thanks for watching. Good to have you
with us.
Breaking news off the top tonight, the White House has confirmed North
Korea fired a long-range missile this morning, around 7:38 a.m. The rocket
launch failed. However, breaking up shortly after launch, according to the
U.S. officials.
We are awaiting a formal statement from the White House. But the
Obama administration had already canceled food aid when North Korea
announced the missile test.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said today that the United States
would be going to the U.N. Security Council seeking action and we will keep
you up-to-date on the latest developments on this story as the hour moves
on here on "THE ED SHOW." the Obama campaign is ready to go head to head
with Mitt Romney. The battle lines have been drawn and there`s no doubt
where team Obama stands.
Vice President Biden was on the campaign trail in New Hampshire today,
preaching economic fairness. He called Mitt Romney out by name. The vice
president said Romney will give additional tax cuts to the rich at the
expense of middle class families.
BIDEN: To put it bluntly, we think it`s out of step with basic
American values. And I`m calling these guys un-American. They are sound,
patriotic Americans. I don`t want to hear anybody play that game with me.
But it is out of step at least with the American values, of middle-
class values that most of us were raised with. And Governor Romney calls
the president out of touch and anti-women, by the way. But -- out of
touch. Hey, how many of y`all have a Swiss bank account?
BIDEN: I sat down with the vice president after his speech today. We
talked about the tax burden on the middle class.
SCHULTZ: Mr. Vice President, thanks for your time.
BIDEN: Yes, it`s great to be here with you. I`m a fan.
SCHULTZ: Thank you.
My head explodes when I hear, you can`t raise taxes on the job
creators. What goes through your mind when you hear that?
BIDEN: What goes through my mind is where in the heck have these guys
been? That was the same argument sitting on the Senate floor listening to
George Bush make when he put that God-awful tax cut through for the super-
wealthy without paying it. They were going to create jobs. What happened?
A slower job growth than any time in 50 years once that passed.
SCHULTZ: Do you think this is an instant replay?
BIDEN: This is an instant replay, man. And I don`t know -- I mean,
they talk about out of touch. Haven`t they seen this movie? I mean, what
makes anybody think -- look, all this does, these God-awful additional tax
cuts that Romney wants to put in there, another $250,000 a year tax cut for
the average person making over 1 million bucks on top of the Bush tax cuts,
$800 billion over the next 10 years?
SCHULTZ: He can`t do it.
BIDEN: He can`t do it. We can`t afford if.
SCHULTZ: It won`t work.
BIDEN: By the way, it doesn`t work. If we want to incentivize
businesses, we should be giving tax breaks to the innovators, we should be
giving tax breaks, making the R&D tax cut permanent, investing in new high-
tech manufacturing capabilities, alternative energy.
SCHULTZ: The middle class understands the unfairness of our current
tax system, according to the vice president. Millionaires and billionaires
understand it, too.
SCHULTZ: A White House campaign staff member told me yesterday that
67 percent of the American people want the wealthy to pay more. Do you
believe that number and do you think that people are with you on that?
BIDEN: I absolutely -- I believe -- the wealthy -- look, I come from
a wealthy state of Delaware. And I got elected seven times as United
States senator being a progressive, and I never once engaged in the so-
called class warfare. But because I found out and you know as well as I
do, wealthy people are just as patriotic as poor people. They are just as
patriotic as middle class people.
SCHULTZ: You said today they are ready to do more.
BIDEN: They are ready to do more. I remember taking a look at a poll
when we were trying to get the jobs bill passed. And we said, in order to
put 400,000 teachers and teacher aides back to work in about 15,000 to
20,000 firefighters and cops, all you had to do was raise five tenths of
one percent the tax on the first dollar millionaire made after the first
million, and I remember the polls showing millionaires, a majority of
millionaires supported that.
So I just think these guys -- I just -- I think the American public is
ready to step up and do their fair share, including millionaires.
SCHULTZ: I also spoke to the vice president today about the
challenges of a presidential election in a post-Citizens United world.
SCHULTZ: Citizens United, there`s a very good chance that the Obama
campaign won`t match the money that`s going to be raised by the super PACs.
And the template may be being played out in Wisconsin about boots on the
ground, social networking. How important is that recall for the confidence
of the country that people want their government and want to have a voice?
BIDEN: In a sense, I think, it`s already been accomplished. It`s
already given confidence when here you had an overwhelming percentage of
the people of Wisconsin to say we should have a recall vote. It almost at
this point doesn`t matter who wins the vote. It matters.
SCHULTZ: Yes.
BIDEN: But the point has been made, it wasn`t just Democrats. It
wasn`t just union members who voted for that. In order to get to the
numbers they had, if my recollection is correct, as many people who voted
in that voted for the governor, the previous election, saying there should
be a recall election. And that is people standing up.
SCHULTZ: Is this the template?
BIDEN: This is the template.
SCHULTZ: It is?
BIDEN: I just got finished talking to our volunteers. There is only
one real anecdote to what is expected to be the hundreds and millions of
dollars spent carpet bombing the president -- primarily me, too -- but I
mean, the president is the guy they are probably going to go after because
he`s the leader. He`s the boss.
And I said, there`s only one anecdote. It`s your next door neighbor
knocking on your door saying, I know these guys. Let me tell you, Ed, they
are good men. This is -- that`s not true what you just heard. That`s why
we need more people.
Barack Obama in his last campaign had the best organized campaign in
the history of modern presidential politics, put more troops on the ground.
The anecdote to their millions of dollars in negative advertising is people
-- people on the ground. And so I think and I believe we will have the
best ground game in the history of American presidential politics. That`s
SCHULTZ: The Obama campaign appears to be laser focused on the middle
class. They want to draw a clear distinction between where President Obama
wants to go and where the Romney camp wants to go. The Obama team is
leaning on this message of economic fairness. The question is, will it
play? They think it`s going to be a home run.
Vice President Biden says the American people do get it. Will Mitt
Romney get it and get with the middle class before November? That`s the
big question. We`ll have a lot more.
Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: are the American people with the Obama team on tax policy?
Text A for yes, text B for no to 622639. And you can go to our blog
at Ed.MSNBC.com and leave a comment. And, of course, we`ll bring you
results later on in the show.
I`m joined tonight by Howard Fineman, NBC News political analyst and
editorial director of the "Huffington Post" Media Group.
Howard, great to have you with us tonight. It was --
HOWARD FINEMAN, HUFFINGTON POST MEDIA GROUP: Hi, Ed.
SCHULTZ: It was interesting being with the Biden team today and
following them.
There is an air of confidence about them that they are on message,
that this economic fairness, this is a horse that they`re going to be able
to ride all the way to November. Your thoughts?
FINEMAN: Well, Ed, first of all, it`s significant that you`re doing
the interview -- the great interview there in New Hampshire. New Hampshire
is a swing state. It`s a state that President Obama won in 2008. It`s
going to be up for grabs again this time.
And the White House is convinced that in that state, we`re talking
about taxes is tricky, you know, that`s the live free or die state, anti-
tax state, no income state, no state sales tax, et cetera. The White House
is confident they can make this case because they`re not just talking about
taxes per se, they`re talking about fairness. They`re talking about being
fair and playing by the rules in American society and values.
Now, most of the American people think that the current tax tables are
unfair. They think they are skewed towards the rich. They think they are
onerous and unfair. So, the White House is pushing on an open door there.
And I think it`s smart.
They are also taking the tax issue and putting it in a larger context.
And, frankly, changing the subject a little bit merely from the current
sort of mediocre state of the economy and saying, look, we`ve made
improvements here but if we go back to the Republican theory of things,
which is symbolized by the tax code, we`re going to go right back into the
recession that we had under George W. Bush.
FINEMAN: I think it`s been very, very clever on their part.
SCHULTZ: They are confident that they have the blueprint to keep this
economy going and by the time the election comes around, they can have 32
months of private sector job growth.
FINEMAN: Yes.
SCHULTZ: They also believe that, you know, their plan, the Buffett
Rule is going to make it better for the middle class and what the Romney
plan is, is going to make it worse for the middle class.
FINEMAN: Right. They want to set -- yes, they want to set this up,
Ed, and they are setting this up -- the White House is -- as a contrast.
It`s not just a referendum on the president. Although I think they`re
going to be able to willing to take that referendum as you say because the
economy is improving.
But they want to present the starkest possible choice between the
Romney plan, which is sort of the Ryan plan plus versus what the president
wants to do. And that`s to distribute the tax burdens more fairly, that`s
to target tax credits to exactly where they can do the most good as Joe
Biden said in terms of innovation. And they believe if they set up that
contrast between an improving present and the presidential plan that
creates more fairness and what Romney would do to take us back to the days
of George W. Bush, that they`ll win that battle.
SCHULTZ: Yes.
FINEMAN: That`s how they want to frame the entire election. And
they`re starting in the right place, which is New Hampshire.
SCHULTZ: And, Howard, within the last hour, we have gotten word that
the North Koreans have attempted yet another launch, three-stage rocket
failed in its first stage, and we are waiting word from the White House on
this. But U.S. officials have confirmed that this rocket launch was a
You were with the secretary of state today, Hillary Clinton, as this
was all setting up.
FINEMAN: Yes.
SCHULTZ: What`s the next move for the United States?
FINEMAN: Well, according to Secretary Clinton who was very, very firm
on this earlier today at her briefing over at the State Department, she
read word by word a United Nation`s Security Council resolution flatly
stating that the North Koreans were barred from not only nuclear
development but from testing ballistic missile technology which is
precisely what the North Koreans did today, even if the thing ended up on
the sea. That`s beside the point.
So, the secretary made it clear they were going to go forcefully to
the United Nations, to the Security Council, citing that resolution, and
seek some kind of sanctions or condemnation of the United Nations. You can
expect Ambassador Susan Rice, who`s been working on this even as we speak,
to be very forceful about it tomorrow and you`ll see a lot of activity, a
lot of tough talk at the United Nations tomorrow.
SCHULTZ: And we will bring you the latest developments on North Korea
as this broadcast continues.
Howard Fineman, thanks for your time tonight. Appreciate it.
Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen and share your thoughts on Twitter @EdShow. We want to know what
you think.
Coming up, more of my exclusive interview with Vice President Joe
Biden. He weighs in on the GOP`s war on women, as well as those
controversial remarks by a Democratic strategist made about Ann Romney.
You won`t want to miss this.
And George Zimmerman made his first court appearance today, charged
with second degree murder of Trayvon martin. Zimmerman`s lawyer did not
request bail.
Stay tuned. We`re right back.
SCHULTZ: Coming up, Vice President Joe Biden reacts to Hilary Rosen`s
comments about Ann Romney and shares his thoughts on the Republican`s war
on women. I also got the vice president`s thoughts on stand your ground
laws across America, as George Zimmerman makes his first appearance in
court. Attorney Daryl Parks and Catherine Crier join me for that
And Vice President Biden says Wisconsin is a template for Democrats.
We`ll bring you the latest from the Badger State.
Share your thoughts on Twitter using the #EdShow.
We`re right back. Stay with us.
HILARY ROSEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: What you have is Mitt Romney
running around saying, well, you know, my wife tells me that what women
really care about are economic issues and when I listen to my wife, that`s
what I`m hearing.
Guess what? His wife has actually never worked a day in her life.
She`s never really dealt with the kinds of economic issues that a majority
of the women in this country are facing.
SCHULTZ: That was Democratic strategist Hilary Rosen really stepping
on it last night. The righties pounced on Rosen`s remarks and tried to
paint her as an Obama adviser, even though she does not work with the White
House, the Obama campaign or the DNC.
Both the Obama campaign and the DNC swiftly repudiated Rosen`s
comments. First lady Michelle Obama offered this strong message, "Every
mother works hard and every women deserves to be respected."
Ann Romney responded to Rosen on FOX.
ANN ROMNEY, MITT ROMNEY`S WIFE: My career choice was to be a mother.
And I think all of us need to know that we need to respect choices that
women make.
SCHULTZ: This afternoon, Rosen apologized for her comments.
ROSEN: Mrs. Romney, I applaud your decision to stay home and raise
what are obviously five wonderful boys. This is not about stay-at-home
moms versus working moms. I think your husband needs to stand up for
women`s economic struggles and so far, we have not seen how he`s going to
do that on the campaign trail.
SCHULTZ: Earlier, I sat down with Vice President Joe Biden to talk
about these comments by Hillary Rosen, Mitt Romney`s fuzzy math and the
GOP`s war on women.
SCHULTZ: The Romney camp is saying that 92 percent of the jobs that
were lost during recession were with women. What`s your response to that?
BIDEN: You know what that reminds me of? I used to practice law when
I was kid and it`s an old joke about the kid who kills both his parents and
then pleads for mercy because he`s an orphan. Who caused these jobs to be
lost? All of them, men and women.
Before we came into office, the six months before, 3.5 million jobs
lost. Before I lowered my right hand on that magnificent day on January
20th, when a million people watching, 750,000 some lost that. Another 4
million before the first job bill we could get passed begin to rectify
SCHULTZ: But he`s trying to make the case that women have been
inordinately hit in this recession. Is that true?
BIDEN: Well, women have been hit but men also have been hit. The
point is, every -- look at all the number of people who have been kicked
out of the middle class, dropped out because they can`t stay there anymore.
And this guy talking about women, these guys talking about women?
These guys have a social policy on contraception that takes you back
to the `50s and they have a policy tour -- I mean, when asked the question,
do you think the legislation passed mandating that your son and daughter
doing the same work will have to get the exact same pay, the Lilly
Ledbetter law, they couldn`t answer of -
SCHULTZ: So the war on women is real?
BIDEN: Oh, I think the war on women is real. And, look, I`ll tell
you, it`s going to intensify. The next president of the United States is
going to name one and possibly two or more members of the Supreme Court.
SCHULTZ: A Democratic operative said that Mitt Romney`s wife, Ann
Romney, hasn`t worked a day in her life. We know the story. She raised
five boys at home. What`s your response to that?
BIDEN: My response to that is an outrageous assertion. Look, I have
fought my whole career -- I`m no hero. I don`t want to make it like --
whether it`s Violence Against Women Act or Equal Pay, my entire career as a
senator and as vice president is to get to one point, where my daughter is
able to make whatever choice she wants and no one question it. My daughter
happens to have her Masters degree, she`s a social worker, she`s getting
married. If my daughter wants to be able to say, I`m staying home and
raising my kids, no one should question it.
SCHULTZ: So the right wing is trying to make the case that Democrats
aren`t sympathetic or respect stay-at-home moms.
BIDEN: Well, let me tell you something -- they don`t know the
Democrats that I know. When my wife was killed and I was raising two young
boys myself and then Jill and I got married, we`ve been married now over 35
years, the boys were young, she`s a professional. She has her doctorate,
she has two master`s, she`s a teacher.
She decided -- she decided, not me -- she said, Joe, I`m going to stay
home to learn school. That`s her decision. And that generation, starting
with my wife, was able to make those decisions. It`s either she`s going to
-- and I just think this is just look at the record of who has promoted
women`s health, who`s promoted women opportunity, who`s promoted the
opportunity to have people on the Supreme Court that recognize that women
are absolutely, thoroughly, totally equal in every way with men.
SCHULTZ: And are women going to be with you with this election? I
mean, the polls show that there`s a gender gap and it favors the Democrats.
BIDEN: Ed, I -- you know, I`m a little probably unusual in this
regard. I never predict what people are going to do.
All I`m saying is I think the case that we can make, Barack`s
policies, our past, our expectations, our dreams for women contrasted with
the Republican agenda as it has been and continues to be relative to women.
I don`t think it`s a close call.
BIDEN: And I think women will make that judgment.
SCHULTZ: Coming up, Congresswoman Maxine Waters and the president of
the National Organization for Women, Terry O`Neill, weigh in on my
interview with Vice President Joe Biden.
And the president also weighed in on the stand your ground laws.
Catherine Crier will discuss with that case of stand your ground, and the
case against George Zimmerman.
Stay with us.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Here`s what I know,
that there`s no tougher job than being a mom. And, you know, when I think
about what Michelle`s had to do, when I think about my own mom, a single
mother raising me and my sister, that`s work. So anybody who would argue
otherwise, I think, probably needs to rethink their statement.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.
That was President Obama earlier reacting to the controversial remarks
made by Democratic strategist Hilary Rosen.
I am joined tonight by Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California, and
Terry O`Neill, president of the National Organization for Women.
Great to have you with us.
You know, the Republicans are playing this now as the Democrats are
anti-family and the Democrats are not family-friendly.
Congresswoman, your response to this. Is this going to be over
tonight or is this conversation going to continue?
REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, the debate about women is
going to continue. It is an issue in this campaign.
The Republicans and Mitt Romney have shown that they don`t care about
women`s issues. They didn`t try to do anything to make sure that women
were protected in this Ryan budget, and then they scared us to death
because they talked about not caring whether or not we had contraception.
Do you realize that contraception has changed the lives of women? It
has given us choices. We can chose to have children and not have them,
have as many as we want, and that gives us the opportunity to stay home, to
And when they brought this issue up, many of us thought we`d never
have to revisit an issue like this again, that those of us who fought in
the women`s movement have gotten this country way past that.
No, this is a debate that is going to be ongoing in this campaign
because women now understand that we`re being threatened, that all of a
sudden we`re being put in a position where we`re going to have things taken
away from us that we thought we had gained. So, no, the debate shall go
on. There is a war on women.
SCHULTZ: And -- well, that`s what the vice president said. We`ll get
to that in a moment as well.
Terry O`Neill, there is some blog traffic out there supporting Hilary
Rosen`s comments saying that what she really meant was that these are
financial issues and that Ann Romney just hasn`t been out there, having to
be a breadwinner and -- for her family. Do you think that there`s a real
division here in the public`s eyes on this?
O`NEILL: No. I think it`s really manufactured by the political
spinmeisters, frankly, on the Romney side. Look, what would we be saying
if Hillary Clinton had said this, that Ann Romney has never -- has not
worked for pay outside the home a day in her life? That`s -- I understand
that that`s an accurate statement.
And that raises the exact issue that Hillary Rosen was trying to get
to, which is do Mr. and Mrs. Romney have the kind of life experience, and
if not the imagination to really understand what most American families are
going through right now.
I think that that was what Hilary was getting at. And -- and so she
left out the words for pay outside the home. I`ll tell you, my mom was an
at-home mother all her life. She used to say about herself, I don`t work.
It`s not accurate. She was one of the most -- she was one of the hardest
working women I`ve ever met. That`s what she said.
SCHULTZ: I think the president was outstanding in his interview
tonight. I mean, President Obama could not have handled it in a more
respectful and serious manner. And earlier we heard from the vice
president. He believes that there is a Republican war on women. Here it
BIDEN: I think the war on women is real. And look, I tell you where
it`s going to intensify. The next president of the United States is going
to get to name one and possibly two or more members of the Supreme Court.
SCHULTZ: Maxine Waters, the Romney campaign and the RNC are already
raising money off of this. So I think the vice president was correct when
he said the war on women is going to intensify. How much more intense can
it get? Especially with the fact that the Republicans are losing big time
in the polls on this issue?
WATERS: You`re absolutely right. You can see that gender gap. And
it`s growing. And it`s not going to stop. Because, again, a lot of the
younger women in our society never thought they`d have to deal with some of
these issues. They thought that the women`s movement some years ago had
equaled the playing field.
And then we see that it has not been equal. It has not been talked
about. The president understood it. And one of the first things that
President Obama did was to make sure that he passed the Ledbetter
legislation to equalize the pay for women.
So he came into office understanding that still work had to be done.
And so as the president has shown that he not only supports women, he
supports women`s equality, the Republicans have now raised this issue in
this campaign in ways that young women now understand, oh, my goodness, we
are at risk. We have taken two steps forward, and this administration
under Mitt Romney would take us backwards.
SCHULTZ: Well, Terry O`Neill, the Ledbetter Law, which was signed --
it was the first piece of legislation that the president signed, was really
so far behind the times. We were just catching up. And in a conference
call, the Romney team could -- didn`t even acknowledge that they knew what
it was. Doesn`t that speak volumes about how far behind they are?
O`NEILL: It absolutely does. They evidently didn`t know what it was.
How can he claim that he cares about women`s economic security or economic
well-being when he doesn`t even know what the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act.
Let`s be clear, the Lilly Ledbetter Act only brought us back to square one.
It was a legislative fix after the Supreme Court misinterpreted Title 7.
So that just brought us back to where we had been before. What we
really need to do it pass the Paycheck Fairness Act. I would love to hear
Mitt Romney explain whether he supports that and, if not, why not?
SCHULTZ: That is an answer he should give, no doubt. Congresswoman
Maxine Waters and Terry O`Neill, thanks for your time tonight here on THE
ED SHOW. We appreciate it.
WATERS: You`re certainly welcome. >
SCHULTZ: There`s a lot more coming up in the next half hour of THE ED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Zimmerman, you`re appearing here for your
first appearances -- first appearance at this time for charge of murder in
the second degree.
SCHULTZ: Ahead, a surprise in the courtroom today as George Zimmerman
showed his face for the first time.
And the vice president weighs in on Stand Your Ground.
SCHULTZ: What`s your position on Stand Your Ground? Is that a good
law? Is it necessary? >
SCHULTZ: And Scott Walker is lecturing two Democrats on how to create
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under Barrett, Milwaukee has had one of the worst
job creation records of any big city in the U.S.
SCHULTZ: Coming up, we`ll set Wisconsin`s governor straight.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. George Zimmerman made his
first court appearance today for the killing of Trayvon Martin on a charge
of second-degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Zimmerman, you`re appearing here for your
first appearances -- first appearance at this time for a charge of murder
in the second degree. And you are represented by Mr. O`Mara. Is that
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, ACCUSED KILLER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember your right to remain silent. All the
other rights that he has told you about -- you have to say nothing. And
we`ll go forward here on some procedural matters only at this time.
SCHULTZ: Zimmerman`s attorney, Mark O`Mara, did not ask for a bond.
He said he would request a bond within a couple of weeks, after the fever
surrounding -- the fervor surrounding the case settled down. Zimmerman is
in protective custody in the Seminole County Jail. His arraignment is set
for May 29th.
And he`s expected to enter a former plea of not guilty. The
magistrate today ordered all future documents be sealed. Zimmerman`s case
has not been assigned to a trial judge.
But the two-page probable cause affidavit gives an indication of the
prosecution`s cases. It said Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin,
disregarding the police dispatcher. Trayvon Martin had been talking to a
friend prior to the confrontation. And he was scared.
It said, Zimmerman confronted Martin. The cries for help were Trayvon
Martin, according to Trayvon`s mother. According to the prosecution, while
Zimmerman was on a 911 call, he said "punks," not a racial slur.
Let`s turn Daryl Parks, attorney for the family of Trayvon Martin.
Mr. Parks, good to have you with us tonight. What is your response to some
of what I just read that is in the affidavit?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR THE MARTIN FAMILY: Well, a lot of the facts
are things that we already heard before, Ed. And I think that, you know,
we knew that the evidence that was found in the 911 tapes were things that
would lead the prosecutor to definitely file charges in this case. And
that`s why we had the confidence that we had.
You know, we`re glad we`re at this point. Right now, it`s not a
probably happy moment for anyone. But it`s good to see the wheels of
justice turning. And this family`s glad to finally be in a courtroom
SCHULTZ: The probable cause affidavit also says Zimmerman profiled
Trayvon Martin. You know, I guess terms of definition, profile Trayvon
Martin -- how would you describe that? What do you think George Zimmerman
PARKS: Well, it was rather clear from the 911 tapes that when George
Zimmerman saw Trayvon Walking just down the street, he said words like,
he`s suspicious; these guys always get away with it. So it was clear at
that time that he had some preconceived notion about Trayvon and people
like Trayvon in his mind.
That`s the only thing it could be. So from the very beginning, the
tapes say it all in this case. You need not go very far.
SCHULTZ: Here`s Trayvon`s mother, Sybrina Fulton, this morning.
SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: We are happy that he was
arrested, so that he can give his side of the story. One of the things
that I still believe in, a person should apologize when they are actually
remorseful for what they have done. I believe it was an accident. I
believe that it just got out of control, and he couldn`t turn the clock
I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a
teenager and that he did not have a weapon?
SCHULTZ: She later said she didn`t really mean it was an accident.
Explain this.
PARKS: Well, clearly -- let me put it in the context. I was actually
there in the studio there in D.C. when she made that statement on "The
Today Show." First of all, she was rather clear that Tracy had made some
comments about Mr. Zimmerman getting out of the vehicle early in that
She was piggybacking on that. So when she made that -- she was
talking about he should not have gotten out of the car -- the truck, excuse
me -- and he did. So that part was -- the encounter itself was an
accident. Not the shooting. It`s rather clear and uncontroverted that
George Zimmerman meant to shoot Trayvon. He has not denied that.
SCHULTZ: Defense Attorney Mark O`Mara is saying that his client,
George Zimmerman, may apologize to the Martin family. How would that be
PARKS: Well, these are Christian people. And we all -- everyone who
are Christians know that forgiveness is a big part of what we do. But you
have to understand that sometimes even forgiveness is a little bit harder
when you`ve lost your child.
So I think she would hear him out, and she would do her best within
her power. But she`s dealt with an awful lot. And certainly she has, you
know -- the system has let her down some.
SCHULTZ: Well, it would certainly put George Zimmerman in somewhat of
a light, showing some sympathy, which would be a good move by the defense
team, don`t you think? He`s been portrayed by some as a very harsh
character. And now if he comes out and apologize, wouldn`t that be pretty
much the standard move by the defense team?
PARKS: It would be great, Ed. But you know what? Up until this
point, even last night, as his brother gave the very lengthy interview to
someone, they were not contrite at all about what they had done. And you
know, some remorse probably would go a long way in this case. But we
haven`t seen any of that yet.
SCHULTZ: Daryl Parks, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you,
Vice President Joe Biden speaks out about Stand Your Ground laws.
Attorney Katherine Crier joins me for the conversation next.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. The Stand Your Ground Laws
have been a hot topic of conversation around the country. Vice President
Joe Biden talked about it today.
SCHULTZ: What`s your position on Stand Your Ground? Is that a good
law? Is it necessary?
BIDEN: Well, look, I think it`s -- I think it just leads to nothing
but ambiguity. You know, there has been, from English common law all the
way through the history of the laws in this country, is that you can -- you
can stand your ground if you`re being attacked. But what you can`t do is
pursue, when you`re no longer in danger pursue and use lethal force against
an individual who is fleeing.
And so one of the reasons why I thought it was so necessary, and the
president called for it, the attorney general, even the governor of Florida
called for it, to set up a special prosecutor, to go take a look at facts,
is that that had to be determined.
The special prosecutor concluded there is evidence to try this man.
SCHULTZ: I am joined tonight by Catherine Crier, attorney and author
of "Patriot Acts, What Americans Must Do to Save the Republic."
Catherine, great to have you with us tonight. What is your response
to Vice President Biden`s comments on Stand Your Ground?
CATHERINE CRIER, ATTORNEY: I think he made an important point, but he
didn`t go far enough. Because the biggest problem I have with Stand Your
Ground is it is so broad as a statute that it doesn`t clarify that not only
do you not pursue someone when you`re no longer fearing imminent bodily
harm, but you don`t instigate the fight. Someone might then begin to
defend themselves. And you have a legitimate reason to shoot.
So if, in fact, there was an altercation provoked by George Zimmerman,
his pursuit of Trayvon Martin, and if, in fact, evidence shows that Trayvon
may have at some point turned to defend himself or confront the man
following him, that that doesn`t, in and of itself, allow you to stand your
ground and use deadly force because someone has turned on you and you now
fear for your life.
So there`s a lot more to the statute than the vice president
SCHULTZ: And the Stand Your Ground Laws obviously getting a great
deal of scrutiny around the country because they passed in numerous states.
The second-degree murder, is it going to be hard to get a conviction
with this law on the books, from what you know on about the case?
CRIER: Well, it`s going to be interesting, because I certainly think
that the special prosecutor has made a gutsy call. She could have gone for
manslaughter. We all would have accepted it. But I think she was
satisfied reviewing the evidence that not only did Neighborhood Watch say
you don`t carry a gun; the 911 operator said stay in your car. There were
only about five minutes from the time he ended that call until Trayvon
Martin was dead on the ground.
In that five-minute period, part of the time Trayvon is talking to his
girlfriend. Part of the time, people are hearing his cries for help. And
that certainly -- the evidence will come out in court. That may be
contradicted. But thus far, there seems to be a consensus it was his cries
we heard.
All of these things go to counter the affirmative defense that, in
fact, George was the fearful one. He felt victimized, he felt threatened.
And the special prosecutor seemed satisfied in bringing the second degree
murder charge.
SCHULTZ: Is this going to make it easier on the defense team to make
a case for their client with this law on the books?
CRIER: It`s going to be an interesting argument that I think Mark
O`Mara is going to make, the counsel for Zimmerman. He has said on air
that Stand Your Ground is, for many people, a license to kill. And I think
he`s going to make the argument to the jury, is we may not like this law,
but it`s the law. And my client has the right to avail himself of those
very broad, much too broad provisions.
But I do think that rational, reasonable people will listen to the
argument and say, wait a minute, you have to truly be in fear of your life
and the victim in a circumstance to apply this.
SCHULTZ: Catherine Crier, thank you for joining us on THE ED SHOW
CRIER: You bet.
SCHULTZ: Coming up, several developments in the recall of Wisconsin
Governor Scott Walker. Stay with us. We`re right back.
BIDEN: Here you had an overwhelming percentage of the people of
Wisconsin say we should have a recall vote.
And it almost at this point doesn`t matter who wins the vote. It
SCHULTZ: Yeah.
BIDEN: But the point has been made.
SCHULTZ: Is this the template.
BIDEN: It is the template.
SCHULTZ: Today, Vice President Joe Biden telling me that the
Wisconsin recall election is the template for overcoming the cash advantage
Republicans have as a result of the Citizens United ruling. We`re already
seeing the effects of the unlimited Republican fundraising in the Badger
State of Wisconsin.
Governor Scott Walker is already out with attack ads against two of
his potential Democratic opponents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For eight years, Tom Barrett has led Milwaukee
backwards. Under Barrett, Milwaukee has had one of the worst job creation
records of any big city in the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kathleen Falk says she wants to take Wisconsin
back. But back be to what? As Dane County executive, Kathleen Falk raised
property taxes every single year. The unemployment rate tripled.
SCHULTZ: Walker wants to pick a fight on jobs. Is that right? Well,
in 2010, Scott Walker promised he would create 250,000 jobs. Instead,
during his first 13 months in office, well, he racked up the worst jobs
record in the country. There were 7,500 fewer jobs in Wisconsin than there
were the month before Walker took office.
Let`s bring in Ruth Conniff, political editor for "The Progressive
Ruth, this is rather unusual. He must be really nervous. He has got
everybody in his sight who may be a potential opponent. What do you make
of it?
RUTH CONNIFF, "THE PROGRESSIVE MAGAZINE": We knew it was coming, Ed.
This is going to be the negative TV ad campaign, financed by the largest
amount of spending our state has ever seen in its history. And right out
of the gate, Walker is attacking his potential opponents on his own biggest
So this is right from the Karl Rove playbook. He wants to talk about
job creation. As governor, as you pointed out, he racked up the worst job
creation record in the United States of America, the first time in
Wisconsin history we`ve been anywhere near that.
And now he wants to blame a mayor and a county exec who have very
little to do with job creation, when you come right down to it. The
governor, the president, Fed chair, they have something to do with job
creation. So for him to blame them is kind of like a cook making a
horrible meal and then trying to pawn it off on the wait staff.
SCHULTZ: You heard Vice President Joe Biden say Wisconsin is a
template for Democrats across the country. How aware do you think
Wisconsinites are about the national implications of this recall, and how
they really, whether they like it or not, are setting up a template on how
to fight back against all the special interest money and Citizens United
money that`s fallen from the sky over the Badger State?
CONNIFF: I think we know it. We know it. We feel it. We have felt
it from the beginning with these huge historic rallies in Wisconsin. But
this is really ground zero for the Republican agenda, a corporate takeover
of democracy.
And it`s right here. It`s playing out. It`s -- Paul Ryan said it
best. He said Wisconsin was the birth place of progressivism. And that
battle between the right wing and the corporations and progressives is
coming to a crescendo here our home state right now.
SCHULTZ: What about the story that developed today that there may be
an opponent in a Republican primary against Governor Walker, a guy named
Arthur Coal Rigs (ph), who calls himself a progressive Republican. What do
you know about this guy?
CONNIFF: I know Arthur very well, as anybody who has been downtown at
the capital does, because he was at the capital every single day during the
protests. He`s a 23-year-old guy who was energized by the protest movement
here. And really what he`s doing is taking us back, giving us a little bit
of Wisconsin history.
The Republican party started here in the state of Wisconsin. It was
an abolitionist party. And the Republican staffers around the capital
nicknamed him Abe Lincoln, because of his looks.
SCHULTZ: So are Democrats going to vote for this kid to get Walker
out before the recall?
CONNIFF: No. You know who is going to vote for him, Ed? Republicans
who have had it with Walker, but can`t bring themselves to vote for a
Democrat. He gives them an option.
SCHULTZ: All right. Ruth Conniff, we`ll follow the story. Thanks so
much for joining us tonight.
You can watch my full interview with Vice President Joe Biden on our
website, Ed.MSNBC.Com. By the way, vice president of the United States
says he`s a fan of this broadcast.
SCHULTZ: You like THE ED SHOW?
BIDEN: I like THE ED SHOW a lot, man. I watch it. I tell you what,
we come from, figuratively speaking, the same neighborhood.
SCHULTZ: Yes, we do.
BIDEN: We had the same aspirations. You ended up being an all-
American. I ended up being all muffin when I --
SCHULTZ: I don`t think so.
SCHULTZ: He`s stretching the truth there, folks. That`s THE ED SHOW.
I`m Ed Schultz. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening,
<Copy: Content and programming copyright 2012 NBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Copyright 2012 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>
- Discuss Story On Newsvine
- Instant Message
Add The Ed Show headlines to your news reader:
Sponsored links
Resource guide


text:
Follow This Company
Embedded System Cyber-Security Engineer
Position Description:
Primary Duties:
Additional Valued Attributes:
PACCAR Inc, operates through two segments: design, manufacture and distribution of light-, medium- and heavy-duty trucks and related aftermarket distribution of parts, and finance and leasing services provided to customers and dealers. The Company's finance and leasing activities are principally related to Company products and associated equipment. Other manufactured products include industrial winches. The Company and its subsidiaries design and manufacture heavy-duty diesel trucks, which are marketed under the Kenworth, Peterbilt and DAF nameplates. The Truck and Other businesses include a division of the Company, which manufactures industrial winches in two United States plants and markets them under the Braden, Carco, and Gearmatic nameplates. In North America, Australia and 16 European countries, the Company provides financing and leasing arrangements, principally for its manufactured trucks, through wholly owned finance companies operating under the PACCAR Financial trade name. (Source: 10-K)

subset: commoncrawl


text:
'M13' on the Loose in Switzerland 'Bears Learn in a Very Precise Way'
"M13" weighs 120 kilograms (265 pounds) and has been wandering across Switzerland's Graubünden canton looking for food over the past week. He's already plundered several beehives for honey and killed a goat in its enclosure.
Gamekeepers succeeded Wednesday night in tracking the bear down and tranquilizing him so they could attach a collar that includes a direction-finding transmitter. Since then, officials have been precisely monitoring the animal's location. In accordance with the Swiss Environment Ministry's management plan for dealing with wild bears, gamekeepers are expected use a deterrance program to teach the bear to avoid contact with humans.
Each time the bear approaches food sources that are close to towns and villages and intended for consumption by humans, gamekeepers plan to fire at the creature using special, non-lethal ammunition to drive him away from people for the long-term.
It's not the first time a wild brown bear has entered the region. Four years ago, "JJ3" showed little fear of humans, but all measures to keep the bear away failed and he was finally shot and killed in 2008. It's a fate that was shared by Bruno, the first brown bear to enter Germany in 170 years, who was shot dead in 2006.
But animal rights activists are more optimistic in M13's case. "There's more hope," said Johanna Schoenenberger, 40, who heads the Bear Project for the Swiss chapter of conservation group WWF. In an interview, she explains how deterrence could succeed this time and also why the bear's death would represent a major setback for her work.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Ms. Schoenenberger, how does one train a wild bear?
Joanna Schoenenberger: The gamekeepers have to be quick. If the bear approaches a village or a source of food, then they must go there and fire at his coat using so-called bear ammunition, a type of rubber bullet. It's not nice -- but it is still in the bear's best interest. The most important thing is that the bear needs to feel threatened by proximity to humans and their food sources. That's the only way he will learn to stay away.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: That sounds like a lot of work.
Schoenenberger: Yes, it is difficult. The bear has the initiative, the people need to follow him. They also can't just shoot him somewhere in the middle of the forest. It has to be done in connection with food sources, like beehives. They also have to be determined in their actions so that he will connect this painful experience with humans and human foods.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What matters most in these efforts?
Schoenenberger: It is important that during his excursions near humans that M13 has more failures than successes. Bears learn in a very precise way. But that also requires large personnel expenses. With JJ3, it took quite a lot of time and didn't deliver results in the end.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why are you more optimistic this time?
Schoenenberger: Because we are tackling (the problem) much earlier. The later the deterrence begins, the greater the number of successes the bear is likely to have had and the greater the chance his behavior will be irreversible. It will be difficult to burn those failures into his memory.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are there even any positive examples of this approach?
Schoenenberger: I have worked on bear deterrence in Alaska and it worked extremely well using bear ammunition. There, we only had to do that once with even very brazen bears.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: But the Graubünden canton is not Alaska.
Schoenenberger: Right, unfortunately not. Here there have been mostly negative experiences, mainly because efforts began too late. Perhaps it was also due to the fact that only rubber pellets have been used so far. We also had little experience with bears, though we are more hopeful now.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: So the bear must look for sustenance elsewhere. Is he even capable of surviving in the region?
Schoenenberger: Yes, it's possible. His behavior up until now is due to a number of factors: He is a young male, which makes him curious by nature. There is also a lot of snow still on the ground, forcing him to search for food near the towns.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Let's assume the deterrent works. Won't the same danger be an issue next winter too?
Schoenenberger: It could be that the game starts from the beginning again. But if he learns fear now, he will keep it with age. Studies show that there is sufficient habitat and sustenance for bears here. The problem is more about the space in people's minds.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What should they do now?
Schoenenberger: People shouldn't leave things out that attract bears such as trash, cat food or chicken feed. But this is difficult to implement on a large scale. Often people switch gears only after the bear has actually come by already. In one night he can travel great distances. The entire valley must treat this as a priority.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: With WWF you carried out a five-year project aimed at making life possible for bears along the Swiss-Austrian-Italian border triangle. There are now bear-resistant trash containers, beehive protection measures and educational hiking trails in the very area where M13 has now been spotted. How would you feel if the bear had to be killed?
Schoenenberger: We should have learned from JJ3. If it's not possible for a bear to survive there now, it would be a total defeat for me and our culture.


text:
Senate Dems look past risks
Senate Democrats are taking a risky bet by waiting for House Speaker John Boehner to cave on the government shutdown — and leave Obamacare unscathed.
Democrats successfully avoided being blamed for shutdowns in the mid-'90s, but that record could easily change if a prolonged and economically damaging closure prompts public outrage at everyone in Congress, not just Republicans.
Democrats are showing no signs of backing down, transforming the Senate into a brick wall that blocks repeated volleys of legislation from the Republican-controlled House. There will be no piecemeal spending bills, no compromise on Obamacare and no last-minute budget conference.
There's but one option, Democrats say: the Senate's clean six-week spending bill.
( PHOTOS: Shutdown's little-known side effects)
"We've got to make a stand to make it clear once and for all that we're not going to be held hostage," said No. 2 Senate Democrat Dick Durbin of Illinois. "The unity is strong."
Conventional wisdom is that the public will blame Republicans for a shutdown, but even at this early stage, it's not a slam-dunk. A Washington Post poll shows a 63 percent disapproval rating for congressional Republicans and 56 percent for Democrats on budget talks. A CNN poll shows 69 percent of respondents think the GOP is acting like a spoiled child; 58 percent said the same of Democrats.
It's hardly surprising that everyone hates Congress as an institution, given that productivity has plummeted and partisan rancor has soared in recent years. So despite congressional Democrats' desires to cast themselves as the grown-ups fit for governing, right now they just look to many like a less bad alternative to the Republicans.
( POLITICO's full government shutdown coverage)
"This is a failure and no one looks good. But clearly, it's a House Republican shutdown," said Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.). "There's an understanding that people aren't happy. It's not good for anyone."
"Are [people] going to be disappointed no matter what and angry if it prolongs itself? Of course," said New Jersey Sen. Robert Menendez, the former chairman of the Senate Democrats' campaign arm.
"It's very hard not to be tarred. I'm hearing from Maine: 'Why aren't you fixing this?' You know, I'd like to fix it. But I don't want to fix it at the price of establishing a precedent that this is the way we are going to legislate," said independent Sen. Angus King, who caucuses with the Democrats.
( Jim VandeHei reports - Shutdown & Obamacare: Poetic justice for GOP)
Republicans in the Senate acknowledge that, at least for now, Senate Democrats hold the higher ground in the public's eye. But they are just waiting for Democrats to slip.
"They think they're in the driver's seat on this because historically this has always splashed back on Republicans," the Senate GOP's chief message man, John Thune of South Dakota, told POLITICO. "There's certainly a risk for the Democrats in sort of the way they're approaching this — overplaying their hand and starting to incur some of the wrath of the American people they think is going to be directed at us."
Democrats seem comfortable for now, pushing the message that they are more mature than their rabble-rousing peers in the House who are hellbent on attacking a health care law that President Barack Obama and his colleagues in Congress say is not up for discussion. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) enjoys describing House Republicans as anarchists, fanatics and just plain "weird," given their fixation on Obamacare.
( PHOTOS: 18 times the government has shut down)
But other than being able to block whatever the House sends over in a spending bill that degrades Obamacare — which Senate Democrats have now done three times — the Senate majority can only do so much during a government shutdown other than hold news conferences, make speeches and exploit Obama's loud microphone to win the PR battle with Republicans.
Senators and committee heads are hampered by a general staffing shortage on Capitol Hill, resulting in the cancellation of congressional hearings that would otherwise be used to promote Democratic priorities like the economy or the environment.
"We're going to try to do the best we can. But for hearings we would like to have, government witnesses probably can't come," said Senate Environment and Public Works Chairwoman Barbara Boxer of California. "Everything we do is hampered. Very much so."
( PHOTOS: Harry Reid's career)
And pursuing legislation during a shutdown that is unrelated to funding the government is unlikely to happen, aides say, leaving the Senate in a holding pattern as lawmakers in that chamber wait for House Republicans to blink.
Voters see what's going on here — and if they don't, they've had their "eyes closed, ears blocked," said Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.).
"Even when they disagree with it, they respect public officials who take a stand and resist the kind of hostage-taking tactics that we've seen," Blumenthal said.
( Also on POLITICO: Collision course: CR and debt ceiling)
Phrases like "hostage-taking" and "gun to the head" are being peppered liberally throughout floor speeches and media interviews as Democrats coalesce around the narrative of a "Republican shutdown" led by the House's intransigence to work with the Democratic Senate and White House. On Wednesday, Senate Democrats will hold a rally alongside furloughed federal workers to optically align themselves with American workers affected by the shutdown.
House Republicans are trying to counter that theme by pushing Senate Democrats to enter formal negotiations on keeping the government funded. The Senate rejected that idea Tuesday, and the GOP immediately sought to exploit it.
"They literally just voted against working out a compromise," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.). "They seem completely opposed to negotiation or compromise."
Reid ended up appointing conferees later in the day — to the long-stalled farm bill, not fiscal negotiations. If refusing a sit-down with Republicans is seen as Democrats taking their ball and going home, Democrats have but one response: Check the scoreboard.
"The polls overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly blame the Republicans. They know the Republicans don't like government. They know the right wing has taken over their party. And the history they know is Republicans blocked Social Security, Medicare and now the Affordable Care Act," Boxer said.


text:
WOW! jfklsdj;fdl SO MANY GREAT RESPONSES! /huffs *V*
Thank you so much, Fiz, for pinning this thread. It's a huge honor and I hope some really cool stuff can actually come about because of it! : D
Dang, though, so many good ideas and posts to go through.
Firstly, I've added all those who volunteered (as tributes) to either provide art/services or advertise. IF I MISSED YOU accidentally lemme know and I'll rectify it!
Secondly, I added all the suggestions I've gotten so far. FOR REAL GUYS IF YOU SEE ANYTHING you really want to happen--grab a hold of it and start organizing yourself, or asking the questions on how TO organize it. I will do my best to help out any projects I can. I'm very good at organizing and brainstorming. Of course I can't do every project ever, so I really need people willing to step up and take control of things they really wanna see happen.
I can see it working out if a group of users came together to mod it. Like how you can show specific things on the front of your userpage. (I forget if you can feature collections) but with that you could collect commission guides or journals, even using favorites could work out. If there were mods with enough time to do so, they could even do monthly to weekly journals advertising those who are open. This way you have, like, a continuous news feed with all sorts of artists open at any given time. /Would really like to see this become a thing tbh
Applications would probably have to include the character initially, but also maybe things that character likes, or 'types' that character is interested--if they prefer romantic or friendly gestures, or even allow for gag gifts, etc. I think it could be worked out!
As far as Weasyl Fantasia goes....
I really would like to be hands on with this project and push into being something if possible. Even if it takes quite a bit of time and effort aaah
Can anyone tell me the themes and examples from past Pixiv Fantasias as example? I work best with examples,and I've read and checked out a lot but AHHH I don't have a Pixiv myself and all the Japanese confuses me @3@
I also know dA Fantasia is a bit more RP-related. Which I wouldn't want to discourage RPing, but I think I like the Pixiv version of being more illustration/art-based.


text:
Using Model View Presenter in WPF
I have owned a copy of Sams Teach Yourself WPF in 24 Hours for about a year, and I still find it an interesting book. One thing I like about this book is that doesn't just show off WPF features - it shows how to use the Model-View-Presenter pattern in doing so. The book was written by Rob Eisenberg and Christopher Bennage from BlueSpire, who are also the guys behind the Caliburn WPF framework, so they know a thing or two about the Model-View-Presenter pattern.
Like the Model-View-ViewModel pattern, we can mostly agree upon what the MVP pattern is, but in practice nearly every implementation looks different. I want to highlight some of the differences between my approach to MVP and theirs, and I have attached a sample application that demonstrates these.
As in the Teach Yourself WPF in 24 Hours book, my sample application is a contact manager. Here are the key points:
- The application has a shell, and a docking panel like Visual Studio.
- There are two types of views that can be opened - a Contact List, a Contact Details for an individual contact
- It uses Composite WPF for region management and loosely coupled communication
- It uses Autofac 2.0 Beta for IOC
- It uses AvalonDock for tab management
You can download the code to follow along. You can also download the Teach Yourself WPF Contact Manager from the Sams website (you may need to register before the download appears).
Model-View-Presenter Differences
First let's highlight some differences in terms of approaches to the MVP pattern between the two. Martin Fowler splits the MVP pattern into Passive View and Supervising Controller, but if anything I think both approaches are Supervising Controller, just in a different way.
View->Presenter Communication
The first example is in how views and presenters communicate. In Teach Yourself WPF, views can hold a reference to the presenter - the following code is for a button click event handler:
private void Save_Click(object sender, RoutedEventArgs e)
In my approach to MVP, Views should be independent of the presenter and not hold a reference to it, though they may be bound to a Model. If a view really wanted to communicate with a presenter, it would do so via raising an event:
event EventHandler SaveRequested;
private void Save_Click(object sender, RoutedEventArgs e)
var handler = SaveRequested;
if (handler != null) handler(this, EventArgs.Empty);
(Of course, this is assuming that in both examples, we aren't using WPF Commands)
Some considerations to keep in mind here are:
- In the Teach Yourself WPF way, the
Presenterneeds a reference to the
View, but the
Viewalso needs a reference to the
Presenter. For loose coupling to work, both of these should be interfaces, which may require a second interface. Using events, you normally create an interface for the view - there is no need for an interface for the presenter, since the view does not need to reference it.
- On the other hand, testing is made a little easier with Teach Yourself WPF approach. To simulate the click event, you just have to call the method on the presenter. But to simulate the click event in the eventing approach, you have to mock the view and raise the mock event.
Presenter is DataContext?
One pattern the Teach Yourself WPF book uses, and Caliburn too, is that the
Presenter is normally the
DataContext for the view. This is different to the approach I've normally used, where data context is a separate object - either a domain model object, or a view model object that the presenter manipulates.
One benefit of this is that in the Teach Yourself WPF approach, properties on the presenter are available for direct binding. A presenter can use some code like this:
public void Initialize()
Contact = LoadContactFromDatabase();
public Contact Contact { get; set; }
However, in my approach, the presenter normally sets properties on a
Model object, which it assigns to the view:
public void Initialize()
View.Model = new ContactDetailsModel();
View.Model.Contact = LoadContactFromDatabase();
Model property on the view is just a wrapper around the data context, but the key point is the
DataContext is not the presenter - it is a different object. The presenter can manipulate the model, and the view can manipulate the model, but the view doesn't touch the presenter (except perhaps indirectly via raising events).
A similar thing happens with Commands. In Teach Yourself WPF/Caliburn, a command would be exposed to the view by a property on the presenter. In my approach, the presenter gives the command to the model, and the view gets it from the model.
public void Initialize()
View.Model = new ContactDetailsModel();
View.Model.Contact = LoadContactFromDatabase();
View.Model.SaveCommand = new DelegateCommand(SaveExecuted);
Here are some points to consider:
- The Teach Yourself WPF approach is simpler because it requires less code - you don't have to create a separate class for the model.
- However, it does put both state and behavior in the same object. In the approach I have used, state and behavior are separated.
Is it MVVM?
Though Teach Yourself WPF/Caliburn use the term presenters, some of the points above make me feel almost as if they are closer to the MVVM pattern than the MVP pattern. In MVVM:
- The
ViewModelis usually the
- The
Viewbinds to properties on the
- The
Viewholds a direct reference to the
- The
ViewModeltypically contains both the state of the view and it's behavior (check)
The one thing Caliburn and Teach Yourself WPF do that wouldn't fit the MVVM profile is that the
Presenter holds a reference to the
View - something
ViewModels should never do. However, in many ways it feels that the Presenters in Teach Yourself WPF/Caliburn are closer to the MVVM pattern than they are to the traditional MVP pattern.
Another object that I have created for each view is a
Parameter object. When you open a view, it's common to need to pass arguments to the presenter - such as a customer ID, filter information, and so on. Instead of making these properties on the presenter, the pattern I follow is to put them in a separate object. This is a technique I learned at from a client, and though it seemed redundant at first, it has grown on me.
For example, in the sample application, when you click a contact, the
ContactDetailsPresenter is shown for that contact. The parameter object looks like this:
public class ContactDetailsParameter : Parameter
public ContactDetailsParameter() : this(0)
public ContactDetailsParameter(int contactId)
ContactId = contactId;
public int ContactId { get; set; }
public bool IsNew { get { return ContactId == 0; } }
The presenter can make use of these arguments when initializing the view:
public class ContactDetailsPresenter : Presenter<IContactDetailsView, ContactDetailsModel, ContactDetailsParameter>
protected override void Initialize()
View.Model = new ContactDetailsModel();
View.Model.SaveCommand = new DelegateCommand(SaveExecuted);
View.Model.Contact = Parameter.IsNew
? new Contact()
: _contactRepository.GetContact(Parameter.ContactId);
The key benefit that parameters have is that you can use them to identify information about a view, without actually creating the presenter or view. This is common when you want to re-activate an existing view.
In the sample application, you can click a contact and they will open in a new tab. If you click another contact, another tab opens. But if you click the same contact a second time, you don't want a new tab to appear - instead, you might want the currently open tab to get focus.
To open a view, I normally raise a Composite WPF event:
private void ShowContactExecuted(Contact contact)
EventAggregator.GetEvent<ShowViewEvent>().Publish(new ShowViewRequest(typeof(ContactDetailsPresenter), "ContentPane", new ContactDetailsParameter(contact.Id)));
The arguments are:
- The type of presenter
- The region name to insert the view into
- The parameter, with all the arguments the presenter needs
There is a singleton event listener which receives that event and works something like this (simplified):
if (region.HasMatchingView(parameter))
var presenter = Container.Resolve(presenterType);
region.Add(presenter.View, parameter);
The logic for deciding whether to re-use the view in the parameter is implemented like this:
public ContactDetailsParameter(int contactId)
ContactId = contactId;
// Use the same view when ContactID's match, but for new views, never reuse them.
ReuseViewBy(() => IsNew ? (object)Guid.NewGuid() : ContactId);
While this approach has many upsides, it does increase the number of files needed for a full MVP view:
The upside however is that you do get a flexible, consistent approach to views that can handle pretty much any scenario - and having used this pattern in a fairly complicated LOB application, I'm pretty confident that it can handle anything. A good New Item template for Visual Studio can greatly speed up the getting started time too.
Some things to consider:
- A parameter is a good way to encapsulate the arguments for a presenter
- But it does introduce an extra class, though that in itself has some benefits
Composite WPF Regions vs. Presenter Hierarchies
I have used Composite WPF in five client projects now and I'll continue to do so. It's a fantastic piece of work that does help you to solve many common scenarios without being overly controlling. The major feature Composite WPF brings for me is regions, which allow you to compose and nest views, and allow the to communicate via the event aggregator.
Composition is an aspect of Teach Yourself WPF/Caliburn that I really don't feel comfortable with, especially from a Composite WPF background. Check out the Caliburn documentation on presenters. Depending on your UI, you can choose from:
- Presenter
- Navigator
- PresenterManager
- MultiPresenter
- MultiPresenterManager?
Each of these are kinds of presenters and serve to fulfill a specific composition pattern. They are necessary because, for example, if you have a view with two child views, the parent view's presenter needs a reference to the child presenters, and vice-versa sometimes, so they can communicate. It reminds me of the CAB SmartPart/Workspace approach.
The Composite WPF region approach does away with all of this. Here's the start up code for the sample application:
_container.Resolve<IEventAggregator>().GetEvent<ShowViewEvent>().Publish(new ShowViewRequest(typeof(ShellPresenter), "Shell", new ShellParameter()));
_container.Resolve<IEventAggregator>().GetEvent<ShowViewEvent>().Publish(new ShowViewRequest(typeof(MenuPresenter), "Menu", new MenuParameter()));
_container.Resolve<IEventAggregator>().GetEvent<ShowViewEvent>().Publish(new ShowViewRequest(typeof(ContactListPresenter), "ContentPane", new ContactListParameter()));
This code opens the Shell, and injects the Menu and ContactList into it. However, the Shell view has no notion of either of them - the ShellPresenter is just a presenter, not some kind of MultiPresenterManager. If it needed to communicate with them, it could do so via a loosely coupled pub-sub model called the Event Aggregator.
Keep in mind that the Composite WPF region system would work just as easily with a Teach Yourself WPF presenter approach (presenter as
DataContext, etc.). The composition approaches aren't necessarily exclusive either - hierarchical presenters as used with Caliburn can work alongside regions.
In this post I focused on two alternative approaches to implementing the Model View Presenter pattern - a traditional, strict approach with strong separation between state and behavior, and the Teach Yourself WPF/Caliburn approach which is a nice intermediary between MVP and MVVM. I think both patterns have their strengths and I've tried to provide some ideas on what those might be. I also contrasted the related composition approaches which aren't necessarily exclusive. I'd love your comments on additional strenghts/weaknesses you've experienced with either pattern.
And if you are building WPF line of business applications and haven't picked up a copy of Teach Yourself WPF, I'd definitely recommend it. This post is also not a thorough representation of the features that Caliburn nor Composite WPF provide - Caliburns Actions are definitely worth a look.
Welcome, my name is Paul Stovell. I live in Brisbane and work on Octopus Deploy, an automated deployment tool.
Prior to founding Octopus Deploy, I worked for an investment bank in London building WPF applications, and before that I worked for Readify, an Australian .NET consulting firm. I also worked on a number of open source projects and was an active user group presenter. I was a Microsoft MVP for WPF from 2006 to 2013.
Hey Stovie, I think the event driven pattern where the View raises events to communicate to the presenter instead of directly calling it is largely academic. Simply because it looks more loosely coupled doesn't actually add any value IMHO and in fact adds more code and indirection to something which can benefit from more direct invocation. Doing it only because its "loosely coupled" therefore == good I think is just adhering to theory for the sake of it. However I will qualify this by being more web implementaiton biased (and yes I know other MVP implementations use this technique), but again I have not seen it actually add value, just add to the theoretical weighting of the idealistic implementation. Obviously its just my preference, but I think its too easy now to get carried away with loosely coupled indirection without thinking about the why.
I did forget to mention though.... nice article Paul. :-)
Hi Glav,
I should have mentioned in the post that although that's how the view would communicate with the presenter if it really really wanted to; when it comes to WPF the majority of view->presenter communication happens through binding and commands. So in that case the
Button would be bound to an
ICommand, which when executed would call the delegate on the presenter and there'd be no need for code behind or events.
I guess one advantage it does bring is that the view could be reused by different presenters. It's pretty uncommon but possible.
Hi Paul,
Great post. Your MVP implementation is very similar to my own variation, which I've called PMVP (Presentation Model-View-Presenter). It's actually quite similar to MVVM; my Presentation Model contains the same UI-oriented properties and events that you'd see in a View Model (data sources, bindable commands, property change notifications, etc.), but the presentation logic is contained within the Presenter rather then being rolled into the View Model. I never liked the idea of cramming the presentation logic into the VM--this approach just seems cleaner to me.
I really enjoyed reading this post. When we wrote the WPF book, we wanted to add a few things that we weren't seeing in other books at that time. The pattern MVVM wasn't really being discussed broadly at that point, so we chose the more traditional MVP pattern. However, as you note, our implementation is really an MVP/MVVM hybrid. I struggled a bit with how to present this when writing the book. We wanted to give readers a strategy for being successful with WPF that went beyond the mechanics of the framework and encouraged good software practices. But since the book was ultimately a WPF book, we had to be careful how far we went with this (we tried to keep our implementations very simple). You may have noticed sprinklings of other more general software practice info throughout. We also wanted to encourage readers to pursue this subject beyond the covers of our book and learn to apply it in other ways.
Concerning Caliburn, the Presenter classes are very confusing, mostly because of their names. In v2 I have renamed and reorganized these classes, to be more consistent with Jeremey Miller's Screen Activation Lifecycle patterns. This is, after all, the purpose of these classes. The main difference between screen activation and region injection is perspective. Regions are view-first. Screen activation is model-first. Don't be fooled by event aggregator. You are just as coupled using regions as using Screen composition. With regions you are coupled to strings and with screens you are coupled to interfaces. Pick your poison ;) I can say that in practice we haven't had any issues with Screen composition. It has simplified a lot of problems. For an intersting example, have a look at NHProf. The entire UI is composed in this fashion.
Just a question / opinion on the
ShowViewRequest event. I've struggled in the past with the semantics here of using an Event to get the next view up - events are broadcasts that something has happened for example
ContactDetailsViewWasShown but in this case you want something to happen and more importantly expect it to. After all if nothing is subscribing to the event (which could happen if something is shifted to another module which is no longer present) then nothing happens when the button is clicked - this happened to me in a CAB application and we
I've always preferred this to be a direct method invocation -
followed by an event (if necessary) -
Hi Graeme, I see where you're coming from. Having a service is possibly easier to mock too and is a little more explicit (and you can probably debug it easier). The benefit the event has is that there's only needs to be one subscriber and event definition - you don't have to create another service for each UI you build.
I could see perhaps something like this:
_navigationService.ShowView(typeof(IContactDetailsPresenter), "ContentPane", new ContactDetailsParameter(12345);
The thing I like about events is they make less assumption about what the downstream service will do. I don't like the presenter dictating the next navigation action - the event is a little more subtle "this happened, you might wish to navigate" as opposed to a forceful "do this" action. In the end I guess it's just semantics, there are assumptions either way.
Scenario is i.e. assume the setup property inspector in Blend 4, when the user types property names in search textbox, the lower view changes for every keystroke. I want to implement this scenario by doing a TwoWay databinding to ViewModel's SearchText property and have presenter do the searching for me and eventually update the UI. In this setup ViewModel should notify presenter when SearchText is changing. This is not present in the pattern discussed. Or I'm missing something. Your thoughts will be very helpful.
Download code link is not working. Is there any other place to get the sample code for the above discussion.
Sample code link is down
Nice article. Unfortunately the code link is still broken...


text:
Bisgaard, located in Aarhus, a Danish beach town is in the middle of the homeland of the Vikings, is a peaceful haven untouched by pollution, where people take care of their environment. It is the birthplace of the beautiful brand Bisgaard, which cherishes feet in the same way it loves its homeland. The natural materials used are associated with the latest technological innovations, and the unique design demonstrates a creativity, refreshingly Scandinavian. Bisgaard shoes match all our childhood moments: the gym shoes, the small elegant shoe, through to the neo-shoes, the Bisgaard collection promises not to bore us! Greatly appreciated around the globe, the brand is already available in 15 countries; Bisgaard shoes are even worn by the children of the Danish royal family. Genuine original creations and gems of comfort and technology, Bisgaard shoes deserve the upmost respect. Marianne Bisgaard and Henrik Thomsen, the creators of the brand, have a mission: to serve the mini citizens of the world. And Sarenza takes pride in participating in this great initiative.
Create an alert to receive brand updates by e-mail!


text:
REFUSiON GmbH necesitaba un nuevo diseño de tema de wordpress y lanzó un concurso de diseño en 99designs.
Un ganador ha sido elegido entre 38 diseños de 7 diseñadores freelance.
As a young Swiss politician (Brenda Mäder, president of the young liberal party of Switzerland) I am currently reshaping my web-appearance. For the campaign (Election of national council as well as the regional parliament's election), a new website will be launched soon.
For the campaign in total, I am looking for a wordpress-template, referring to the idea of the already existing wordpress-design "Obama scheme" (http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/obama). Also, on top of the site, a lettering/logo showing the web-address "brenda.ch" should be shown. This lettering will also be used on hand-outs, business cards, etc. Shortly: The website "brenda.ch" will be the campaign for Brenda Mäder's political campaign.
The goal is to create a brand out of the name of the website. Therefore, one major part of the redesign is to create a Lettering/Logo for "brenda.ch". For the coloring, as written in "Requirements", it should preferably be held in blue and white.
The lettering should remind of the following points/ideas:
- Young
- New idea
- Activity
- Frank, direct, straight to the point
- At the same time: serious
- My main topics in politics are personal freedom and therefore being a counterpart towards the ongoing growing of rules and restrictions. My other main topics are social politics (welfare state, health care, etc.) and, as a young politician, the long-term view in general.
Young people, politically interested people, newspaper-readers (printed version) as well as people having sympathy towards the FDP (Freisinnige Demokratische Partei der Schweiz, liberal party of Switzerland).
The template should be referring to the idea of the "Obama scheme", and show both party logo as well as the lettering "brenda.ch" on top of the page. The template's color scheme should principally stay the same as in the example, but, as the campaign is held in Switzerland, the "stars and stripes"-sujet should be left out.
In Swiss politics, name-letterings/logos are not very common. With the campaign "brenda.ch", I am trying to do something new. This is also what the character of the lettering/logo should be and why the wordpress "Obama scheme" has been chosen as an example. At the same time, my candidature for the National Council is meant seriously.
The current website, a "standard" blog hosted by wordpress:
The wordpress template, to be taken as an example, the "Obama Scheme":
Positiv and negative points of the "Obama Scheme":
+ Coloring
+ Structure
+ Space for photographs
- Typography
- "Stars and Stripe"-Sujet
As the lettering/logo "brenda.ch" will be used for printed products as well, it should be useable for printing large- and small scale.
For every page, there will be a different picture of me in this box to make the website look personal.
Here I would like to proclaim my 3 political statements in a striking way. Those statements should be clickable (Boxes, Buttons, etc.) and link to a subpage. 3 Main topics: 1) Personal freedom 2) Long-term goals 3) work should be worthwile.
- "Home"
- "Über Brenda" (about me. Includes a subpage for a photo gallery)
- "Blog"
- "Meine Politik" (my main political points)
- "Agenda"
- "Presse" (press releases)
- "Kontakt" (contact information)
- (optional place for a further menu-point)
The newly created lettering of "brenda.ch" should be placed on the top left of the website. Additionally, the following two logos of political parties have to be placed in the header as well (attached as pics):
- FDP-logo: http://www.fdp.ch
- Jungfreisinnige: http://www.jungfreisinnige.ch
On the homepage, there should be a Twitter-Feed with the last 2-3 entries and the common links to facebook, twitter and other social networks.
Also, there should be left some space to put in a paypal-account.
Color & Text
As the FDP's main color is blue, the lettering "brenda.ch" should preferably be held in blue and white. In total, the Obama-scheme-colors generally should be kept for the wordpress-template. Furthermore, I expect a complete typography for the website.


text:
You're about to take advantage of one of the greatest opportunities of your college career. By studying away, you'll learn more about another culture in the most fundamental way possible - by actually living it. There are plenty of Web-sites and books that can give you detailed advice about what to do during every moment of your time away, so we'd like to keep our advice brief and stick to a few main points.
You know yourself better than anyone. Aside from having a great academic experience - which you may already know how to accomplish - what do you want to gain from your time away? Are you hoping to make life-long local friends? If so, how do you plan to make them? Do you plan to make a difference in the community through service work? Think about what sort of work you'd like to do, and where you might do it. We're not suggesting that you need to write out a day-by-day plan, just encouraging you to take stock of what's important to you, then seriously consider ways to make sure those things happen.
Returning students often tell us that they wish they'd traveled less. Wherever you're going, whether it's Accra or Prague, don't lose track of the wonders that surround you in your new "home" city. It can be tempting to try to see all of Europe or to try to make it to Timbuktu, but those experiences may make it difficult to get to know your actual study abroad home. And chances are, you'll catch the travel bug while you're away, so you'll get a chance to see the places you missed someday soon.
Study abroad can be expensive. And if you travel a lot, it can be really expensive. Here's a simple plan for making sure you're ready.
Any physical or mental health concerns that you have here in the US will still be with you when you're abroad. That sounds obvious, we know, but it can be easy to forget to consult with your health care providers about things like prescriptions, medical treatment, and counseling abroad. So when you make an appointment for your study abroad physical, go with a list of questions about the sorts of services you'd like to have when you're away. If your physician can't help you, please don't hesitate to give us a call.
You're always welcome to call us with any questions you have, but you may also want to check out books and Web-sites about your new home. We'll say it again: things will be different in your new home city. That's one of the reasons you're going, we hope, but knowing what to expect can often make it easier to accept the differences - some of which may be challenging - that you'll experience. Though we'd like everyone to read up and learn as much as they can especially about staying safe in your new city, we particularly encourage young women, students of color, and LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or questioning) students to find out more about how they may be perceived in their new city. If you have any questions for us, we can assist you or put you in touch with a study abroad returnee who can help out as well.
You're going to hear this over and over again, but it's the most important advice of all. Things will be different abroad, and not just in ways you expect. For example, you obviously know that people speak the same language in London, but do you know what a "cuppa" is? Did you know that Italian law limits the number of hours that heat can be turned on each day? In short, ask questions of our staff, students who've been there before, and locals—that's one of the easiest ways to find out what's up - and keep an open mind about things that are different and may, at first glance, seem strange or worse than what you're used to.