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Saturday, March 29, 2008
"Digger" Dominates Craftsman Truck Race On Fox
The storylines for the Saturday afternoon Craftsman Truck Series race on Fox were fantastic. The diversity of the drivers in the field almost guaranteed a race with action from start-to-finish.
There were the Truck Series regulars that ranged from Rick Crawford to Ron Hornaday Jr. The Martinsville "visitors" included Modified champ Donny Lia, open-wheeler Scott Speed and young Chrissy Wallace. Almost the entire field had a story to tell.
Certainly, one of the most compelling was the ride Dennis Setzer was piloting. The remaining pieces of the late Bobby Hamilton's racing operation had been slowly coming together with lots of help from lots of people in racing. Combined with Setzer's well known short-track prowess, things could not have gone better.
It was Chris Myers and not Krista Voda who manned the Hollywood Hotel since this Truck race was on Fox. Regular Truck Series viewers are used to a competent and energetic Voda setting the table for the race. That was not to be the case here.
Myer's acknowledged "act" is ridiculous, as anyone who has seen the real personality of Myers on other cable sports programs knows all too well. Myers hosts Center Court, the signature interview program on The Tennis Channel.
That Chris Myers speaks intelligently to a diverse group of athletes, coaches and tennis personalities one-on-one. The difference between a stuttering and stammering Myers in the Hollywood Hotel and the sophisticated interviewer asking informed questions to international tennis stars is amazing.
On Saturday at Martinsville, Myers was simply a distraction while the rest of the broadcast team scrambled to provide the information fans needed. These Truck broadcasts on Fox have no pre-race show, so at least the racing was underway in a timely fashion.
Back after throat problems, Darrell Waltrip filled a nice role on this telecast. He and Phil Parsons have worked out a very good relationship on-the-air. DW talks big picture and Parsons fills-in the details. In this broadcast, that partnership was effective throughout the race. Between Waltrip's Martinsville history and Parsons Truck Series knowledge, the issue of Michael Waltrip being absent for this telecast did not arise.
Early in the race, it was clear that even on a cold Martinsville spring day, the Fox team was going to make good pictures and sound. Despite the gray skies, the technical crew delivered consistent coverage and just like a good basketball referee, was not really noticed. Everything just worked.
With 250 laps to run, the Fox Producer allowed viewers 25 laps before he introduced the one consistent presence that viewers would be seeing for the entire telecast. "Digger" the Gopher Cam was introduced on this short track with his animation and the race would never be the same.
The action on the track was outstanding, the stories throughout the field were compelling and the pit reporters were right on-top of the action. Unfortunately, by lap 37 the Fox Director had decided that "Digger" was going to be a part of the regular race coverage and not just a toy to use once and a while.
It was 58 laps into the race when "Digger" became a total distraction. As the field sorted out and the stories of the race began to unfold, "Digger" was now being used by the Director more frequently. The change in the perspective from high-to-low and the lack of any ability to see what was going-on in the race began to take its toll on the coverage.
During green flag racing, "Digger" would be used as the camera to frame a graphic for promoting other Fox programming. The meaningless tires of the Trucks would just stream by without any reference or meaning.
During a caution on lap 82, Fox introduced a new feature from the Hollywood Hotel. The Craftsman Tools of the Trade feature put a new air impact wrench on the set for Jeff Hammond to explain. Chris Myers holding an air gun looked like Superman handling kryptonite. It was clear he had never seen one before.
Hammond patiently explained that it was almost like the air guns the crews used down on pit road. Myers was puzzled, and asked "and what would you use it for in the pits?" As America drew a deep breath, Hammond quietly said, "taking lug nuts on and off." Is there anything more that needs to be said here?
Fox had now found yet a new use for "Digger." This was the camera angle used while going to commercial under caution. It was also the camera angle used to come back from commercial.
After lap 100, "Digger" began to dominate the telecast. Now, this camera was actively being "cut" into the telecast as a regular "camera cut" on a lap. "Digger" was now part of the live race coverage.
Slowly, all of the positive NASCAR on Fox production elements began to fade as "Digger" began to overwhelm viewers. The quad-split for the pits, the double video boxes for interviews and the nice crisp Fox graphics lost their luster.
The race recap just past halfway was nicely edited, but transitioned into Chris Myers selling "Digger" T-shirts from the Hollywood Hotel. Hammond seems mildly amused by all of this hype, and told Myers that "Digger" is "just as funny as you are." That quip was not lost on veteran fans.
With only 100 laps to go, "Digger" was once again on the air while 6th place Denny Hamlin spun. At the time, the announcers were once again talking about"Digger." With 67 laps to go, "Digger" was on the air when Brian Scott spun. Viewers saw the action on the track once again through multiple replays. Of course, the final replay angle was "Digger" complete with the animation and sound effects.
The big "Digger" moment came with only 13 laps to go when Rick Allen yelled "problems as Jack Sprague gets turned around coming out of 2!" Once again, Fox viewers had been watching big truck tires drive past "Digger" and missed another key moment of the race. The Director had been using his favorite toy and not covering the action on the track with less than 15 laps to go.
At the finish, a big gaggle of Trucks raced to the line. TV viewers saw the action from a nice wideshot, and in this case the benefit included two spins from the second and third place Trucks. This was the story of the race, Kyle Busch spinning Johnny Benson out on the last lap.
After the post-race interview with the winner, Fox made some very interesting choices. Chrissy Wallace was interviewed on her top twenty finish and Kyle Busch was interviewed on his "accident" on the final lap. Johnny Benson was left out in the cold even though he was a key story.
Fox also did not speak with Whelen Modified champ Donny Lia, or open-wheel veteran Scott Speed, who finished ninth and tenth respectively. Throughout the race, the unfolding Brendan Gaughan saga was documented extensively. Gaughan battled back from his late pitstop for fuel and finished in eleventh place. Despite his Davidson College storyline and the NCAA Tournament tie-in, he was not interviewed.
The SPEED crew produces their Craftsman Truck races as a "feature presentation." The effort from Krista Voda's pre-race show all the way through Rick Allen's final sign-off has been nothing short of outstanding for several seasons. The production choices are made because the team knows the on-going storylines of the series by heart.
At Martinsville, the announcers in the booth and the reporters on pit road turned in solid performances and gave the viewers all the information they could handle. The "hole" in this telecast was the over-use of one single "toy" that Fox has inserted into coverage this season for absolutely no specific reason.
Once in a while, the track-level perspective of "Digger" the Gopher Cam is interesting and makes for entertaining viewing. The key words in that sentence are "once in a while." It was unfortunate that the Director chose to insert this one production element far too many times in this Truck Series race.
It distracted from the good stories on the track, prevented viewers from seeing lots of key action, and ultimately became a storyline itself with the endless promotion and hype. Fox has been to this track for years without "Digger" and never had a problem with camera selection during the race. The same cannot be said for this season.
With a much longer Sprint Cup race on-tap for Sunday, it should be interesting to see if the NASCAR on Fox crew continues to shift the focus from the drivers and action on the track to their new "toy" that comes complete with a full line of merchandise. As we said in the headline, it was "Digger" that dominated this event from the drop of the green flag.
The Daly Planet welcomes comments from readers. Simply click on the COMMENTS button below and follow the easy instructions. The rules for posting are on the right side of the main page. Thanks again for taking the time to stop by.
37 comments:
- Anonymous said...
"Regular Truck Series viewers are used to a competent and energetic Voda setting the table for the race."
I'm sorry but that quote makes it sound like you are saying Chris M. is incompetent. Is that what you are trying to get across in your opinion?
- March 29, 2008 at 9:43 PM
- Anonymous said...
Thank you for your review and I agree with you about Digger.
I know some people aren't going to be happy with the coverage today of Chrissy Wallace. I think they may need to step back and realize that NASCAR has a huge female fanbase (more than 40 percent) that really wants to have a good female driver(s) succeed. The coverage today was not overkill. I'm sure more drivers would have been featured if the race had not run over, but Chrissy was THE story outside of Setzer and Busch/Benson. Plus they interviewed her post race for what, 20-25 seconds?
I've seen comments on several Cup drivers' message boards today with people specifically watching the race for Chrissy - or if they were going to watch the race anyway, they were rooting for her to do well.
And this was an impressive race for her coming straight from late models. I'm going to repost what I posted in the race thread because I think it's important for people to realize that Chrissy warranted the coverage today.
Guys, what Chrissy Wallace did today was very impressive. I had my doubts about her, but she finished 17th in her first NASCAR race.
Contrast that with Erin Crocker who has 29 truck starts (2 in 2005, 25 in 2006, and 2 earlier this year). Erin finished 36th in her first race (crashed out).
Erin did not get a top 15 until this year, in her 28th race. She finished 14th at Daytona (and then finished 22nd at Cali). In running the full season in 2006, her best was three top 20s (two 16th place finishes and an 18th).
So basically, with one race (and no confirmed scheduled races coming up) Chrissy Wallace has already surpassed Erin Crocker in my mind. She's still got a LONG way to go, but that was more potential than Erin ever showed, and I doubt Chrissy's Germain equipment and crews were as good as the ones from Evernham Motorsports.
While I agree that Scott Speed should have been mentioned more, Chrissy backed up all the coverage she got with a good showing.
- March 29, 2008 at 9:49 PM
- stricklinfan82 said...
Great column. You pretty much echoed my sentiments from the in-race comments about the overuse of the damn gopher cam. I started getting a headache seeing the same camera shot over and over and over again. It can be cool once in a while to see a thundering pack of vehicles driving over a track-level camera but to use it seemingly every single lap during green flag racing was definitely overkill. Attention Fox: WE CAN'T SEE THE RACE FROM THAT CAMERA ANGLE. And, as I also pointed out in the in-race comments, we missed far too many accidents on restarts thanks to using the gopher cam excessively. Every restart seemed to follow the pattern: gopher cam, switch to the wall "speed shot", switch to gopher cam, switch to the other gopher cam, switch to the speed shot, go back to a normal camera for a second, back to gopher cam. It just got to be way too much to handle.
Other than the overkill on Chrissy Wallace while completely ignoring the very similar stories of fellow-newcomers Donny Lia and Scott Speed that outran her all day long, the other glaring problems with Fox continue to be the 4-box for pit stops and the scoring crawl.
I personally prefer the traditional 3-box with a wide shot of pit road on the right side of the screen, and it was especially curious of Fox to use one of the boxes to show the leader on the race track following the pace car during today's race.
As for the scoring crawl, Fox's information is always outdated and I especially dislike the new idea of scrolling positions 1-10 twice and then going to a 1-36. The scoring crawl was invented to keep fans updated on the cars not being seen on camera, and those are usually the cars running 11th on back. I shouldn't have to sit through seeing the top 10 names 3 times before I finally see who's running 11th. I should see a constant crawl that goes 1-43, 1-43, 1-43, 1-43, and that crawl should have real-time intervals and position changes, not the rundown and interval as of the last time they crossed the finish line.
On the flip side, ESPN does a fantastic job with their crawl. They always scroll the entire field and update the intervals and position changes in real-time. I just can't understand why Fox is seemingly using 1993-aged scoring crawl technology while their competitor at ESPN is using state of the art timing and scoring that couldn't be any more accurate up to the millisecond. Get with the times Fox!
- March 29, 2008 at 10:04 PM
- Anonymous said...
Anonymous 9:49, slight correction on your comment: Chrissy Wallace finished 18th, not 17th. The FOX ticker had her 17th, but official results changed it.
Other than that good post! Don't worry, some people are just never going to get it and complain any time a female racer gets on the screen and call it overkill. :-) They're just gonna have to deal. As you pointed out with that comparison, Chrissy deserved all her airtime today. (BTW, it wasn't Speed's first truck race like it was Chrissy's - different circumstances.)
Also priceless when the audio was the conversation between driver and father : "Dad!" "Just keep digging, honey". As DW and Phil said, never heard a spotter call their driver "honey." I liked that DW thought it was funny and "kinda sweet".
Anyway, I'd rather see airtime of Chrissy Wallace about actually performing on the track than Brendan G. being interviewed about the Hoyas getting knocked off by Davidson a while back. Or like tonight's race where they started off the pre-race showing video of Danica Patrick getting her pictures taken in her swimsuit. Not the way to make me take Miss "I-Still-Haven't-Won-A-Race" seriously, but I'll bet a lot of guys won't complain about that TV broadcast choice as much as they will about Chrissy getting a short interview after the race.
- March 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM
- Daly Planet Editor said...
Anon 9:43PM,
I write a column and then you form your own opinions. If you choose to share them, you can post them here.
Perhaps, you might take a moment to read the column again. As always, I complimented Mr. Myers on his journalistic abilities and his veteran TV presence.
I am a fan of the Tennis Channel, and I watch his program regularly.
- March 29, 2008 at 10:33 PM
- Daly Planet Editor said...
Anon 10:28PM,
I think the Chrissy Wallace story was outstanding and I never suggested in any way that it should not have been shown.
What should have been done, in my opinion, is to also get Johnny Benson, Donny Lia and Scott Speed on the air quickly and "pay-off" the stories the network had been telling us about since the race started.
Thanks again for the comment.
- March 29, 2008 at 10:36 PM
- bevo said...
Great post JD.
I had stuff to do today and caught the race at a sports bar. Couldn't listen much because of the hockey and baseball games playing at the same time. That made the constant use of "Digger" even more aggravating. By the last 30 or so laps left I was the only one watching, the other 20 people gave up on it.
Hope they don't pull the same crap tomorrow.
- March 29, 2008 at 10:45 PM
- Anonymous said...
Great column D.P.E., also agree with Stricklinfan82 post. You both called it right. As for me I say the time has come for "Digger" to end....as road kill.
- March 29, 2008 at 10:49 PM
- Newracefan said...
I use to like the digger cam and the animation doesn't really bother me but the over use of those camera angles was horrible. It made it difficult for me to just watch the race. Is it the same producer for the cup race? All I can think of is be afraid be very afraid.
Chrissy was a big deal for me and I was ok with the coverage of her run. I wonder if it was on Speed instead of FOx would we have heard more about the other first time drivers, not to mention the JB interview.
The Hollywood Hotel was a big waste, this race is way to short to allow it's use. About the only time it made sense was during the red flags but I'm sure Phil and DW could have kept us entertained or better yet fill it up with commercials and we wouldn't have to watch them during a green flag run or miss the restart after a caution. I will admit I enjoyed the HD for the trucks since I do not have Speed HD.
PS Lose the top 10 ticker it's annoying.
- March 29, 2008 at 10:51 PM
- Anonymous said...
Anon 10:28PM,
I think the Chrissy Wallace story was outstanding and I never suggested in any way that it should not have been shown.
March 29, 2008 10:36 PM
JD, I should have been clearer. I was referring to the post above mine at 10:04 and some on the other blog that referred to airtime for Chrissy Wallace as "overkill" - not your blog at the top. Sorry about that. :-)
I did really want to see an interview with Johnny Benson. Reading his post race comments he said they've got to start penalizing drivers for that type of driving, it happens all the time in the truck series and nothing gets done about it. Maybe they'll have something from him on NASCAR Now tomorrow from after the race, but you're right they should have gotten him today. But IMO Scott Speed (not his first race) and Lia (not as unusual a story as Wallace) and Gaughan were less priority for TV than Chrissy if FOX was short on time (and they were).
- March 29, 2008 at 10:51 PM
- Anonymous said...
I used to like Myers on the "pre race" segments. But it seems this year hes trying to be my uncle benny and tell knock knock jokes for the entire time we see him.
His "comedy" is getting old in a hurry.
How much money can the be making off of Digger? I can fathom for the amount of time they spend pimping T-shirts that they could make just as much with a subway add. DW must have a huge stake in that thing....
- March 29, 2008 at 11:00 PM
- Sophia said...
Welp, since it's fox again tomorrow, I shall have on MRN since today's show got TREATED like radio. Between the useless SLING SHOT CAM (because that's what I wanted to shoot at it on my tv) we treated the tv like radio and I even did laundry.
Why sit to be treated to the show as JD wrote. It was bloody annoying. They could NOT use a simple, standard camera angle for anything.
I liked the Chrissy story but was HUGELY disappointed FOX said we would hear from JB but we didn't.
Man, already FOX's versin of "DRAFT TRACKER" is alienating those of us who said (last year) we can't wait until Fox because ESPN is dreadful.
Well, I was wrong about Fox, and I promptly admit it (one of the 12 steps !!) I like the guys in the booth but the DIGGER TOY needs to go find a mate and disappear into the sunset now that mating season is here.
I am done with Fox. They either have TWO different producers for the races or they are like NASCAR NOW and have bipolar...one day good, next day, NOT good.
IRL started off rough with the Danica swimsuit pics and their HORRIBLE SPLIT Screen over kill but they got better.
I am dusting out the boom box in the morning to LISTEN to the Cup race. They may pretend to start the race with little usage of Digger cam but we all KNOW their agenda now...sell T shirts.
Maybe Digger was on the last TWIN show and I missed it but man...Who would think such head spinning, vertigo inducing USELESS camera work would be in CONSTANT use for the race today.
Thanks for the column JD and the chance to rant, kvetch, and sometimes, cheer, with the other posters.
- March 29, 2008 at 11:19 PM
- Anonymous said...
Great article.
I wish they would have interviewed more of the drivers as well, like mostly everyone else has said.
And I agree with some of the others in the previous topic about Matt Yocum and how he put his arm around Keebler.
I know we aren't supposed to bash.. but I'm sorry, I need to vent somewhere. I knew Kyle was gonna wreck Johnny when they restarted. It's so upsetting watching Johnny, one of the most respected drivers out there, get wrecked by some impatient "driver" who wasn't happy with 3rd?! Johnny needed those points. But it's ok Kyle, you got wrecked too, so you should be mad.. yea right.
Ok sorry JD. Please don't delete that. I just wanted to let out the frustration.
Congrats to Setzer.. I'm proud of that whole organization.
- March 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM
- Anonymous said...
Also, Matt Crafton had a career best 2nd and wasn't interviewed.
- March 30, 2008 at 12:04 AM
- Anonymous said...
Erin did not get a top 15 until this year, in her 28th race.
If we take the comparison back even further, Kelly Sutton finished a career-best 15th once in 54 races over five seasons, with seven overall top 20 finishes.
Wallace only has to get a 13th place or better to have done better than Crocker and Sutton in Trucks. An 18th is not a bad start for one race and being 19 years old, so I didn't mind them talking about her today.
Her TV presence since when I saw her on NASCAR Now was pretty different. Perhaps they took her in for some quick media training, one of the best sports media trainers in the business is based in Charlotte NC.
- March 30, 2008 at 1:11 AM
- IKILGORE said...
Hey John!
Once again, great column. I enjoy reading your posts. You need to admit that you really don't like Chris and just get it over with. We are all tired of your constant tirades about him and I am sure hoping you will just come out and say it.
The "Digger" cam is a great toy. You guys are missing the point on one thing: Martinsville is boring!!! Anytime you can change it up is always a good thing. You people that complain about "Digger" are the same ones who complain about "Crank it up!" and any type of technical inovations a network might have. This is not the 1990 ESPN coverage that everyone loved. Have any of you been to an actual race? If you sit in the grandstands and watch them go around in circles you don't know anything that's happening unless it is right in front of you. The TV networks do a good job of showing what is happening.
To the people who complaing about the ticker. Just remember that we are dealing with a half mile track. On one of the networks someone said that the trucks travel three laps in one minute. You have a 36 truck field and three laps a minute... well can you see how it would be HARD to update the ticker all the time? It's not 1993 technology, its more like who really cares about the guy in eighteenth when there is only seventeen trucks on the lead lap?
The Truck race was great and I wish that SPEED could let FOX broadcast the Talladega show. Keep up the good work JD.
PS: Those who don't like "Crank it up" have never been to a race because that is all it is!
- March 30, 2008 at 2:00 AM
- stricklinfan82 said...
anon @ 10:28,
I'm not trying to downplay Chrissy Wallace's accomplishment by any means. I was rooting for her to run well and I thought she did an excellent job. She was a relevant human-interest story and it was good to see her get some attention.
The point I was expressing with the "overkill" comment is that she received far more coverage than almost any other driver in a similar position has ever received. We've seen female drivers in the Truck Series, we've seen the children of current NASCAR drivers make their NASCAR debuts, we've seen minority drivers make NACAR debuts, and we've seen Formula 1, Indycar, and Sprint car drivers make their debuts... and I can't remember anyone else receiving nearly the constant coverage she received today in her NASCAR debut.
It's good for her of course, but we didn't see nearly this much constant coverage all day long with female Erin Crocker when she made her NASCAR debut, African-American Bill Lester when he made his NASCAR debut, F1 drivers Scott Speed and Juan Montoya when they made their NASCAR debuts, Indycar drivers like Dario Franchitti and Sam Hornish when they made their NASCAR debuts, or other children of NASCAR stars like Stephen Wallace and Justin Labonte when they made their NASCAR debuts.
Chrissy absolutely deserved TV coverage, but I thought the coverage was excessive considering the prior precedence in covering the NASCAR debuts of other women, other children of NASCAR drivers, and other "newbies" in general that had more impressive resumes heading into their NASCAR debuts.
Newcomers Donny Lia, Ryan Lawler, and Scott Speed outran Chrissy today and were basically ignored, that's where I had the biggest problem. I think the wealth should be spread and other drivers should get shout-outs and attention when they have good runs too.
In my opinion (and maybe mine alone, I don't know) TV coverage of new drivers should be earned by performance on the racetrack, and not by that new driver's gender, race, family tree, racing pedigree, or any other factor outside of on-track performance. With racing careers being so dependent on sponsorship money it becomes unfair, in my opinion, when TV time and valuable exposure to new drivers is afforded based on a producer or director's choice of which newcomer is a better storyline and not based on which newcomer is actually running better on the racetrack.
- March 30, 2008 at 4:45 AM
- RPM said...
Chris Meyers needs to go. If he has'nt learned NASCAR by now, he never will. The "I'm a dumb wannabe fan" act has worn thinner than a tomato cut with a Ginsu knife by Ron Popeil.
I'm sorry FOX, but you have for the most part an audience of seasoned fans. We get tired of the spoonfed newbie antics rather quickly. Do you explain the handoff or forward pass on your NFL coverage on every single play? NO!
Why not? Because the audience knows the sport! Give us dumb ignorant backwoods hick viewers some credit. You are broadcasting to an audience that is hardcore racing fans. The 10% of random viewers with no idea of the sport is alienating the 90% of your core viewers.
By the way FOX, why do those guys move the chains on the football field when teams go ten yards?
- March 30, 2008 at 6:26 AM
- Anonymous said...
I am so happy we have Chrissy Wallace she is going to be what RE tried to make out of Erin Crocker. I agree with the poster that mentioned Kelly Sutton. She was always better than Crocker but never got the attention. I think Chrissy is the real deal.
I like Digger, and I don't mind the overuse, although I agree it is OVERuse. Poor CM can't get out of the rut FOX has put him in IMOH and if he did start asking intellegent questions no one would notice he is SUPPOSED to be the bufoon now.
As for KB, I think it is unfair to criticize him for hard racing with JB but not give him props for not eviceratng the 85 when he should have. KB actually faced the music if with the most copliant dance partner at FOX, JB didn't need to answer the wreck, KB did and did it well.
I repeat what I said the fist time the trucks were on FOX. KEEP THE TRUCKS ON SPEED. The regular speed crew seems to suffer from performance anxiety when they get over on the BIG network.
- March 30, 2008 at 6:38 AM
- Unknown said...
If we want to get rid of Digger then we must embrace Digger.
Accept and expand!
All the other cameras need names and cartoon figures.
The cameras that hangs over the wall coming out of turn 2 and turn 4, call those "Slug".
The camera that is at the exit of pit road and just stares at the white line, call that one "Junkie".
The camera that is 5 miles up and shows the whole track, call that one "Google Earth".
The cameras in the cars that stare at the drivers all race, call those "Mother-In-Law".
The camera on the pit crew helmet, call those "Spy Cam".
You get the point, embrace the idea, expand on it, show how silly the whole thing is and it will go away.
- March 30, 2008 at 6:59 AM
- Anonymous said...
Here's another vote to cut down the use of the in-track camera. Its a cool angle at times, but its not where the racing is.
I thought that the coverage of Chrissy Wallace was perfectly appropriate. First, unlike other female drivers who have attempted the truck series, she has been winning races at the level she's been racing at. Second, its become downright unusual to see a new driver who has come up through stock cars. Third, she's good enough to have interested Tony Stewart in her career and any driver Tony is willing to mentor deserves watching. Fourth, she's from a racing family -- a fact which is always going to draw attention (consider the fact that Jeffrey Earnhardt and Austin Dillon have gotten broadcast time during Nascar coverage without even being in the races).
People need to take note of the way Matt Yocum interviewed Kyle Busch after he messed up as compared to whatshisface from ESPN last week. Which gets a better interview from a driver who is upset? Friendliness, respect, and a personal touch? Or a confrontational, adversarial, I'm-gonna-get-somethng-juicy attitude?
ESPN reporters need to learn that they're going to be interviewing these same drivers not just all year but for the next ten, fifteen, or even twenty years and that the drivers will remember how they've been treated and react accordingly.
- March 30, 2008 at 8:01 AM
- Anonymous said...
Myer's acknowledged "act" is ridiculous
Meyers and the HH are a total waste of air time, I wouldn't miss either a bit.
- March 30, 2008 at 8:26 AM
- Anonymous said...
If I had the ability Iwould create "KillDigger.com" wehre every time the the stupid little thing popped up we could kill it somehow.
FOX... you do realize we are there to watch a race right? Apparently not.
- March 30, 2008 at 8:36 AM
- snowfaller said...
First of all, they had to interview Chrissy after the race. She had been the main story all week and if they left it open at the end there would be just as many people complaining...
As for interviewing JB, it's certainly possible they asked him and he said "in a minute" to cool down a bit. Unfortunately, with the race running long they didn't have any sort of a postrace show at all so if they had a few more minutes we very well may have heard from JB.
I'm dreading the race today (Digger).
- March 30, 2008 at 8:46 AM
- Daly Planet Editor said...
Nothing could be further from the truth. You are confusing personal with professional.
Myers original role was to be "the California clown" for Fox and admit he knew nothing about the sport and was an "LA kinda guy."
Years ago, that worked well with DW and Jeff Hammond. Now, not so much. Fans know the sport and also know from watching other NASCAR shows that folks like John Roberts, Steve Byrnes and Krista Voda have been working very hard in this sport every race for years now.
As I mentioned in my column, you should see Myers other shows on TV. He is glib and informed and sophisticated. The NASCAR thing is an "act."
In the Truck Series, fans are used to a smart Voda hosting a fast-paced thirty minute pre-race show. This element of having someone hosting in the infield should be expanded by SPEED, but why not give Voda a break and let her host the Trucks from the Hollywood Hotel?
I just do not understand the downside of that, and we all saw the results on national TV.
- March 30, 2008 at 9:12 AM
- Anonymous said...
I don't think we need to see Gopher "once in a while". I think once was enough and it needs to go away forever. I feel pretty much the same way about in car cameras. I just want to see the race.
I liked the coverage of Chrissy Wallace. She did better than most 19 year old kids. In the future, they should focus on her the same as if she was a male.
- March 30, 2008 at 10:49 AM
- Anonymous said...
It's good for her of course, but we didn't see nearly this much constant coverage all day long with female Erin Crocker when she made her NASCAR debut, African-American Bill Lester when he made his NASCAR debut, F1 drivers Scott Speed and Juan Montoya when they made their NASCAR debuts, Indycar drivers like Dario Franchitti and Sam Hornish when they made their NASCAR debuts, or other children of NASCAR stars like Stephen Wallace and Justin Labonte when they made their NASCAR debuts.
I didn't see all those debuts, but I saw the debuts of Montoya (ARCA), Crocker (ARCA, Busch, and Trucks) and Stephen Wallace (ARCA). They ALL got extensive coverage before, during, and after the race, and except for Crocker in Busch and Trucks (she did exceptionally well in ARCA at the beginning) they all lived up to the TV hype. C. Wallace did the same thing yesterday.
It may be unfair but people are interested in people who are different to NASCAR or have a family name in NASCAR. For JPM's debut there was media from all over the world at the race and fans all over the world bombarding the ARCA website for results and asking if there was a link where they could watch the race live.
- March 30, 2008 at 10:52 AM
- Anonymous said...
Fox introduced a new feature from the Hollywood Hotel. The Craftsman Tools of the Trade feature put a new air impact wrench on the set for Jeff Hammond to explain.
Actually this is not a new feature. It is usually shown on SPEED Channel with Ray Dunlap during the race. Since Ray is a SPEED Guy, Jeff Hammond did it this week. It is a segment used just for Truck Series coverage.
- March 30, 2008 at 11:15 AM
- frankp316 said...
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- March 30, 2008 at 11:19 AM
- Daly Planet Editor said...
Anon 11:15AM,
Have you ever seen it done from the Hollywood Hotel with Jeff Hammond and Chris Myers before?
I had not, and that is the reason I made that statement. I am a big NCTS fan and always enjoy RD showing off new tools.
- March 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM
- Anonymous said...
Anon 8:01, you basically said what I was thinking, especially as pertains to Chrissy W.
Also I, for one, like that they alter the positions tracker, especially late in the race. I don't want to know who is running 30th as much as how the top 10 are positioned. Running thru the entire list each time can cause some postition changes to be missed.
- March 30, 2008 at 12:18 PM
- Anonymous said...
I misunderstood something in the 10th graph of your post... By my reckoning, they used the "ditch cam" three times in the first two laps, when a high degree of position-setting was occurring; and I basically knew we were screwed. The perspective is certainly interesting, but it usually provides nothing to the coverage and offered the ultimate insult when one of Mr. Raymer's spins was reviewed only from the "hole cam" -- outrageous misuse of a trivial application, which you pretty well covered.
In the end, Chrissy Wallace was well covered, especially considering the hook her dad, a successful NASCAR driver, spotting provided; but IMHO she fell to fourth-most-important spot behind Setzer, Busch and Benson, who needed to provide the counterpoint to Kyle's wheel-hop story. It was tough to see a video clip of JB hanging on pit road post-race only to never be interviewed, but to me, the most ridiculous aspect of post-race was that Kyle couldn't understand that, after he (insert most vile slur here) Benson, he got what was coming to him as Matt Crafton, who had the same basic thing happen to him last year, knocked KB out of the way on his way to the checkered flag... Oh well.
And to sum up their coverage, I would have loved to have had one clue to how Jon Wood came from 34th to seventh, where he got together with Timothy Peters, then went back to 30th before getting back to the top 15, before finishing 28th? You would have thought a former Martinsville race winner with a very fast truck, getting black-flagged three times would have been worth one note from the pit reporters.
- March 30, 2008 at 12:26 PM
- Anonymous said...
here is the interview of JB, what happened? I got turned around. how was your truck today? I want to thank all my sponsors amd my crew, they really worked their butts off to give me a good ride, did you have any worries about running out of gas? no and so forth and so on, yadda yadda yadda. If you hear one interview after the race you heard them all, just like going to the circus.
- March 30, 2008 at 1:17 PM
- Anonymous said...
I have often asked myself why Chris Myers is even a part of the NASCAR telecast. His comment about what the crews use the air gun for just confirmed my thoughts.
- March 30, 2008 at 9:20 PM
- Statboy said...
After watching Digger come out of his hole approximately 147 times this weekend, I was starting to change my opinion that Fox is better than ESPN and put the 4-letter network back at the top when it comes to NASCAR coverage. But then I think to myself that ESPN will beat us to death with draft tracker this fall and I just want to stab myself in the eye with a screwdriver.
All big-time networks come up with gimmicks. I just hope this one dies before next season rolls around.
- March 31, 2008 at 4:39 PM
- Anonymous said...
billwebz - that was FUNNY!
I know that every week there are a lot of stories around that need to be told. Trucks sometimes dwell on one person or one topic alittle too much, but that digger thing...WOW! They really went overboard on that one. It's funny how NASCAR wants to make up stuff so they can sell more things. We have enough things to buy. Just educate people on what is going on around the track or stories behind the scenes, past stuff that need to be relived or new things be ventured is all the announcers need to do. Keep an eye on the track, explain and educate what is going on there. Show more than 5 trucks a race. Tell all the stories and you'll have a greater fan base. No need for "new toys" leave that to Cup. Truck racing is best left as racing.
- April 2, 2008 at 2:40 PM
- Bucket Trucks said...
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- July 10, 2009 at 7:29 AM


text:
Hey, guess what, Ryan Madson didn't come back to the Phillies. If you are surprised he didn't come back to the team that dangled a nice big contract in front of his face and then pulled it away like so many cartoon footballs and left him stuck with a 1 year deal in Ohio's Armpit, then you're a more forgiving human being than I, I suppose.
BTW – Not sure anyone calls Cincinnati "Ohio's Armpit", but I just did now, so there. No offense intended, Cincy…just yackin'.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Eric LeVine wrote:Diane (Long Island) wrote:Voila! Thank you, Dale.
I can't tell you how long it took me to find it even after you mentioned it.
I really wish you had spent 2-3 minutes perusing this document: https://www.cellartracker.com/content.asp?iContent=41
It is still worth a quick skim.
The new site BEGS people in two prominent places to do so. I sent personal emails to everyone asking them to do so. It covers this exact topic (THE MENU).
Which I did, and found it extremely confusing.


text:
Matthew Monstar wrote:Profiler wrote:What do these defensemen all have in common? Pronger, Schneider, Niedermayer, Zhitnik, Havelid, Chara, Spacek, Lydman, Tallinder, Corvo, Aucoin, Sarich, Warrener, Foote, Hannan, Norstrom, Zubov, Boucher, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Souray, Staios, Salei, Van Ryn, Blake, Stuart, Preissing, Tverdovskiy, Johnsson, Markov, Hamrlik, Zidlicky, Martin, White, Sutton, Witt, Mara, Malik, Redden, Phillips, Timonen, Hatcher, Rathje, Jovanovski, Morris, Boynton, Gonch, Sydor, Rivet, McLaren, Brewer, McKee, Boyle, Kuba, McCabe, Kubina, Kaberle, Mitchell, salo, Ohlund, Poti, and Pothier.
Give up? They all make as much, or more than the "overpaid bum" Ryan Whitney. Now, you look at that list, and tell me you wouldnt rather have him RIGHT NOW over at least (if not more) half the guys on that list? Forget potential. Look at that list people! Sure, there are guys on there that are better, but come on. Zhitnik? Boynton? Derian freakin' Hatcher? I understand you guys get upset because he isn't Ulf Samuelsson in front of his net, and will never get over that he doesnt use his size. I get it. But to act like you can find a better defenseman for the $$$$ we are paying him....I mean seriously, we spent $2.5 on Sydor last offseason, and he is making just as much as Whits. Go ahead and try to tell me he is better. I know it is an isolated instance, but seriously.
I know I will get slammed that this isnt the thread that this should be brought up in, but since shot were taken here, this is where I am putting it. I will wait with baited breath for the rebuttal from the Whits haters.
Cant people state an opinion of whitney? Dont throw a hissy fit, calm down.
Oh, I get it. You are not allowed to state an opinion on Whitney unless it is negative.....okay, I will make a mental note
I know it was mentioned in aother response after my original post, and I am not sure if it was a general question or to me inparticular: but I dont have a lovefest with Whitney, and get annoyed with his play in front of the net too, but the criticisim of his game is just way more than is deserved a lot of the time. Hell, you could say the same about Gonchar too. Not every defensman in the league is physical, and stong at every aspect of the game. If they were, you wouldn't see stiffs like Gill making $2 million a year on the hope he can at least be respectable at the other phases of the game, just so he can "clear the net". Ask Toronto fans how happy they are with McCabe's play in front of the net, or Habs fans about Souray in the past, or Philly fans about Hatcher. The fact is, coplete players dont grow on trees. Hell, ever when we do get a guy that can clear the crease, we then complain about how they are too slow, or how they cant move the puck, or get beat wide all the time. Well ladies and gentlemen, there are only two guys in the league that clear the net consisently, and DONT get beat wide: Phaneuf and Pronger. Thats it, thats the list.
I guess this is just a long way of saying that, unless you are a Sid, or a Mario, you are going to have some weaknesses in your game. Whitney and Gonch have trouble in front (and by the way, so did Larry Murphy....that is HOF'er Larry Murphy.......I am just saying....), Orpik and Gill has trouble with speed guys, Sydor is starting to lose a step, but it isnt like these guys dont bring other assets to the table. I understand people are going to vent here, that is what is so great about a message board. I hated Melichar, but I have to even admit I got tired of reading the same things over and over about him too. If you want to complain about a guys play, fine, but dont act like Alex Goligoski is going ot be the answer to teh Penguins defensive woes, because if you think the "hulking" 5'11 D-man is the answer to the net clearing problems, you are sadly mistaken.


text:
After a bit of hemming and hawing over the winter, I took the plunge and went with a CSA for the summer. I picked up my first share last week and it included several vegetables that were a bit foreign to me.
According to the Heaven's Harvest website, the share this week consisted of: scallions, Hakurei turnips, summer squash, sweet potatoes, red chard, romaine lettuce, baby bok choi, collards, lemon balm, chives (boo – no chives for me!), and strawberries.
As I was heading down to New York for the weekend, I prepared a little lunchbox for my trip using the fresh bounty that I had.
I researched the white hakurei turnips and learned that they don't require peeling. Recalling the first time that I made jicama cilantro slaw and inadvertently bought a large turnip (yes, this was well before I had developed into the sophisticate that I am today…I kept exclaiming, "my, this tastes quite earthy!"), I figured a modified slaw would work well with the delicate turnips. So, I did a quick 45-minute marinade of julienned turnips in lemon juice, salt, pepper, extra-virgin, and chiffonaded lemon balm, and then threw the mix over hearty romaine lettuce.
I next prepared some chard, also chiffonaded, and then quickly sautéed in olive oil with salt and thrown atop a whole wheat wrap slathered in hummus.
Finally, I rinsed and dried the strawberries and repacked them in their container.
And then I threw everything into an old salad greens container next to a bottle of water, and rushed off to South Station.


text:
Apple Keywords - Top apple.com Keywords for SEO & PPC
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Finding common patterns is the key to making search data understandable and actionable.
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text:
Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page :
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Joined: 02 Feb 2012
Posts: 380
Posted: Thu 06 Dec 2012, 22:45
Post subject:
jpeps wrote:
elroy wrote:
And to me, to be fair (and, of course, this is my personal opinion), if you're taking, you should also be giving if at all possible.
Fortunately, you can do that very easily at Puppy Linux, without having to first ask permission from a group of "authorities" with their own personal agendas. If there's something that can be improved, you'll get feedback to that effect from users. That makes it a win-win situation.
Yes, and that's the beauty of the murga forums. You may get thrashed if so deserving, but you're more than likely to get positive, useful feedback. I've used the Arch forums, and while certainly very useful, I must say that in comparison, the puppy murga forum is more friendly for the newbie. It's because of this that, as a forum, murga is of utmost value to myself. But I must be honest, the Arch wiki is without peer at present. I applaud those that are taking the effort to make the puppy wiki as usable as possible, but to begrudge the Arch wiki would be unrealistic. It is very thorough, and at present has no peer.
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Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 633
Location: Kamloops BC Canada
Posted: Fri 07 Dec 2012, 05:31
Post subject: Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good
Here is an article that looks at some of the hosts for open source projects:
Considering that the article was published three days ago, it seems rather timely with respect to this thread.
While thinking about hosts for Puppy based projects, it occurs to me that many people want to have a place to call our own, rather than meet up at SourceForge, Google Code, or some other well known public website. That being the case, consider the merits of using Raffy's site... Why not transform it to be
the meeting place
for Puppy enthusiasts to collaborate on specific projects.... projects that originate from the discussions that evolve here at the Forum?
More food for thought,
is pronounced: "mun-see". Derived from my surname, it was my nickname throughout high school.
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Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 7024
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Fri 07 Dec 2012, 07:45
Post subject:
While still young compared to SourceForge, GitHub has become the de facto host for open source projects, with over 4.2 million repositories at the time of writing. GitHub's strength is their tagline, 'Social Coding'. On GitHub, it's trivial to make a copy of another developer's project, make changes to that project, and then submit those changes using GitHub's pull request system.
This thing about being the "de facto host" sounds suspicious to me. I wonder if that 4.2 million includes every clone of every repository...
Do you know a good
program? Please post a link
Classic Puppy quotes
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Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 7024
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Fri 07 Dec 2012, 08:18
Post subject: Re: Collaboration in Puppyland has great benefit
And since we're almost back on the subject:
greengeek wrote:
In the interests of longterm stability I think it is important to look for a collaborative platform that does not fall prey to what we have seen over the last couple of years.
Lots of valuable Puppy info got lost when the FBI took down MegaUpload. Google and others are coming under greater pressure to "spy and control". Lot's of people have found their valuable data locked up and unable to be accessed.
Free offerings, including Google (microsoft's mortal enemy) are a natural target for corporate and governmental interference. I just think thought should be given to a paid service that is less likely to fall prey to these risks.
1. I struggle a little with the comparison between MegaUpload and something like Google Code or Sourceforge.
Sites like MegaUpload were always widely regarding (including by their users) as being primarily a tool for copyright infringement: leasing a ship to the "pirates". But I don't see people accusing sourceforge and google code of being tools for copyright or patent infringement. They are a lot more "respectable".
2. I guess I'm taking both sides of an argument here, but from what I could see the heavy users of MegaUpload were typically paying users, so I don't think you can say it was an easy target because it was a free service. Was it even a particularly easy target? It didn't even have a shortage of money to defend itself, but having money doesn't help. The US government thinks it is God and that the law doesn't apply to it, so it can just steal everyone's files...
Do you know a good
program? Please post a link
Classic Puppy quotes
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Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 6730
Location: Earth
Posted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 14:10
Post subject:
Thanks to all as we move the emotion out of the discussion and focus on Collaboration methods. This is evidenced by comments over the last couple days.
Firstly, can a collaboration model exist where members "equally" sit at a working/conference table to contribute as much as they can for a common effort? Does this require a Project leader or can the working table be the "project leader" with all table members working toward goal?
Next, if this can be thought of as a good experiment, which tool (site) can be utilized so that we can track each's contribution as the project morphs to product landing in the PLDF (our forum). Would this experiment of table members contributing freely in both definition and goal be workable?
Be reminded, that as with any radical approach, there is periods of newness without any past evidence to go on. But, open source and the internet and now tools that are freely available can allow a change in how things are done that were not possible in past models of doing stuff.
I think all here are peering at its possibilities ... albeit from differing vantages....but still peering. Step back a little and relook at what you are all saying and I think you can begin to see a new path where teaming can become 2nd nature.
Here to help
Edit: P.S. I am not directing at anyone with my first sentence. It is merely a general statement,
not aimed anywhere!!!
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engines
or use
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Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3217
Posted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 15:17
Post subject:
gcmartin wrote:
Thanks to all as we move the emotion out of the discussion and focus on Collaboration methods. This is evidenced by comments over the last couple days.
Here to help
gcmartin, no offense, but am I correct in assuming that you have no experience working with groups in this capacity?
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Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 326
Posted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 20:04
Post subject: cart before the horse?
Just an observation. Is this thread a bit of cart before the horse? Let us define what we want before we find where and who to design it.
I have been observing and using Linux for a long time. Been in this business a lot longer. I think before you worry about finding a group to design a new flavor... you should consider what is desired.
As long as it is difficult for any one other than a developer to add new programs to a flavor or Linux... you will never have mass acceptance.
As we all know it is nearly impossible to find a program to do xxx and simply load it to our preferred flavor of Puppy or any Linux.
I believe the cooperative effort should be directed on more than a new flavor of Puppy. It should be a flavor that incorporates or assists the USER in having a PUPPY that is extremely easy to update in terms of new applications. No I am not referring to a repository of selected applications. I am referring to the thousands of program that exist in the world. ONE CLICK, save and run.
For instance. I would love to see a full blown database. Where I can take my existing thousands of forms and run. I would love to be able to ONE click a new application. I would love to one click for printer recognition (an old flavor of Linus used to auto detect, and load the correct drivers at start up time, similar to auto detecting of video).
In short. What is needed is a collaborative effort to make Puppy easier to use, easier to update, and easier to play with flavor of Linux.
It is a pure shame that between the many flavors of the month, you can not run x program. It must be "Customized" for each flavor. Yes, I know this is not just a Puppy issue. But until it is rectified, Puppy and Linux will never become a real competitor.
Much progress has been accomplished in the past few years. But this is not a plug and play system as far as additional software is concerned.
Can we start a list of what we would like to see? Pie in the sky? Then see if the items can be checked off. To start any project we need to conceive of what we want.
Start of a list:
One click install.
Killer applications, such as DataBase
One click Printer Install.
Clean up some of the forms to make them more user friendly and remove unneeded keystrokes.
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Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 7024
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 20:46
Post subject:
As we all know it is nearly impossible to find a program to do xxx and simply load it to our preferred flavor of Puppy or any Linux.
Isn't the whole point of the modern puppies based on Debian/Ubuntu/Slackware/etc that you can easily install anything from that distro's repositories? Does it not work most of the time?
Do you know a good
program? Please post a link
Classic Puppy quotes
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3473
Location: The Blue Marble
Posted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 21:27
Post subject:
Everybody who is everybody should know Michael Abrash. Long read, but very interesting in relation (or should I say, in contrast) to this thread.
To save your time, start reading from "Valve is different" section, onwards.
Fatdog64 forum links:
Latest version
Contributed packages
ISO builder
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Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3217
Posted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 22:59
Post subject:
Great read. Just dive in and do it....
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Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2549
Location: near here
Posted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 10:36
Post subject:
Great article, I would like to know more about how Valve works.
Not all the work involved it creating an OS is interesting or innovative.
Some the more tedious work can be done by working smarter. Like having a system to track features and bugs - instead of it being spread out over a forum. Other things may require paying people, perhaps like maintaining repositories. Then there are costs like running a server.
Many distributions have a foundation which can collect funds for the project. But with Puppy is down to donating to individual developers.
helping Wiki for help
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Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3217
Posted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 11:56
Post subject:
darkcity wrote:
Some the more tedious work can be done by working smarter. Like having a system to track features and bugs - instead of it being spread out over a forum.
Development teams for large projects have a number of services like Bugzilla, etc., that they can employ. Typically, apps get stripped to minimize size at the user level. Forums are for different types of issues mainly related to user experience. The "one click" proponents generally don't know how to use a terminal.
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Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1126
Posted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 14:23
Post subject:
mavrothal wrote:
gcmartin wrote:
Are we at a maturity-level of PLDF to step-out in investing in such an effort?
This is not how it works.
Is not for you, me and the "treasurer" (kudos
) to tell/advise TaZoC, 01Micko, JamesBond etc what and how.
Nobody is going to build
Try this instead (with this order).
1) Build what you can.
2) Tell (concept) what you want to build, show (code) how you go about it and where you are at (prototype).
3) Ask for help where you can not do it yourself (for whatever reason)
4) Ask for alternative technical suggestions/improvements/impementations
5) Invite (usually privately) people that contribute to join
6) If things start moving to the direction you want and can not be accommodated by the current structures, try to make it an "organization" (ie website, wiki, bug-tracker, IRC channel, mailing list and eventually forum).
PS: make sure you have a lot of time and some disposable income.
gcmartin wrote:
Don't take this wrongly, but, I think
that approach
is not a very good one. And because I say this doesn't mean that your comments are not of value. They are...
I see what you are suggesting, but, this is what is already done in Puppyland and there are many examples of this.
What you offer is similar to what has been going on.
I am suggesting true collaboration. This starts with a definition. One way of looking at a definition is to look at a starting point of what the developers I suggest already have done, understand, and are clear on. As a team we dont "tell" them what to do...instead we work with them working from a documented design point and working in such a way where everyone contributes what they can to the whole.
Its not just a slapping of packs together or just using a particular repo. Its about looking at what is to be achieved, the audience intended, and using the creativity of the forum, collaborating (at least willing to) for addressing objective.
I'm not trying to talk over someone's heads, here. And, I am not trying to suggest that because one does/doesn't write code he shouldn't be discussing a collaboration project either.
We talking about finding a methodology to work together and giving an honest try at finding approaches for useful work which could become generally available and have enough meat on the bones that everyone can "ride the dog". Much of the prior efforts were done using old approaches and old methodologies. With the open-sources tools and free collaboration tools, this community can achieve working as a team for common useful good.
It will take a willingness to want to work together.
P.S. How did anyone get the idea that "I" (as in eye) suggesting telling a project leader what to do? Is this a funny that I am missing or was someone trying to make a genuine comment?
AND, thanks @Jpeps for your offer of Treasurer and your opening monetary contribution to go toward a paid site. But, I think that as an Open source project team, we MAY be able to get collaboration site areas for free, if, of course, we carry this forward.
I think there is one point that has been completely absent from the talks here. I think everyone is for
here. However the hard truth is that I would venture that 75% of the people here are unable to truly collaborate. This has nothing to do with personality or antyhing of the sort. It comes down to a simple issue of who has the technical ability to actually offer something. There has been talking amonst the Lighhouse Devs of trying to set something up so we can work together, but after talking about it something rather simple came up. In our world of puppylinux, there really isnt much '
code collaboration
' that can take place. We arent working together on code projects that often. The one that did seem to come to mine was the SFS-load-on-the-fly program where a bunch of devs pitched in. But even without GIT or FOSSIL or other coding tools everyone managed to make it work smoothly. In most puppies there really isnt much actually code editing by multiple people. You dont need to be a coder to build a puppy. You can just be knowledgeable in linux and you can take slacko or presice, strip what you dont want out, add in what you want; and presto you have a new version.
And from what I see with most puppy projects thats what happens. One person puts something together, and users ask for apps, etc. Other devs pitch in and help by packing up apps and doing that. But most of the time users are just installing and using. Sure they report back when something doesnt work properly, but thats not exactly collaboration. When the majority is simply clicking to install and then going away to do their own thing... can there be much collaboration? In puppy land because of its fractured nature of development (which I believe is a strength); there are too many different methodologies for all the devs to collab on a single project. For myself, I do things a certain way because I'm trying to learn something that way. I've been working with JamesBond on a project, and as much as I'd like to help more... he's just so much more skilled than me at designing a puppy from the ground up that most of the work has been on him and not on me. Of course we worked out something privately so we are both happy... but the fact is that even amongst people who do develop here... its still going to be imbalanced.
So of what good is GIT or FOSSIL going to be?
What we seem to have every so often is someone steping up saying that 'the people' need more of an input. And its disguised in a way about choice and power being given to the people and not in the devs hands. Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news here... but reality is the people need the devs to build the stuff since they lack the skill themselves. Users cant really collaborate with devs on a puppy version, because they have nothing to offer. So what we'd have is a dev taking orders from dozens of people about how something should be done. And yes I used the word 'orders' on purpose... If the dev is just doing what other people want with no care for his own thoughts... then he/she isnt taking suggestions, they are taking orders.
So coming back to the 'collaboration' issue... how can people with no skill collaborate with people that have the skill? In the corperate world, you will see no coders working to design and lead a coding team. And the coders have no problem with that because they are getting paid. When they leave work, come home to work on their own projects and wishes... they dont want to again be told what to do in their own free time which is supposed to be for their enjoyment.
So when you have an unbalanced field, how can everyone work together equally? As was brought up in the past... the whole crapola about a 'symbiotic relationship'. A relationship that is symbiotic in any venture requires equal give and take from all members. So in the issue of a community collaboration, what can the users or non coders offer the coders that is equal to what the coders are giving everyone else with their time and skill.
GCmartin you say that people should 'work
' developers... what does that mean to you? Using you and me as an example: if you tell me what to do and then I go do it... that not
you working with me
. thats
me working for you
. So what can you do to
work with
me; if Im the one doing all the coding work, and you are just sitting at home saying what you want done.
(I used us as an example so that the pronouns didnt get confusing)
I'm not all doom and gloom though about this idea... If someone wants to make a run at this, I'll gladly donate server space on one of my servers for them to set up the site and run it. While I dont think it'll work... I"ll gladly offer the server up for someone to try.
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Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5827
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande
Posted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 15:37
Post subject:
Q5sys wrote:
Users cant really collaborate with devs on a puppy version, because they have nothing to offer
I think there are many cases where a user does have a lot to offer - because their feedback DOES shape the end product.
I will offer a specific example - sometime ago gcmartin was discussing the idea of using Puppy as a PXE server to allow other PCs to boot from the network. This was a foreign concept to me, and he offered to help me learn how to set up my puppy to do this, by taking me through the process step by step, using a "live document" on Google docs (which I had never previously used..)
He told me to feel free to modify the document in any way that seemed meaningful to me, and that other contributors could do the same - with the intention that the document would reflect the various different understandings and skills of the contributors.
I wasn't just following a tutorial - I felt that I was helping write it.
I felt empowered by that process of direct feedback and was successful in gaining a good understanding of the PXE process. It was more than me just following a set of instructions - I felt I had a way to graft my learning experience directly into the PXE setup process / tutorial.
Most importantly I realised that Google docs was a fantastic "live" method of sharing constantly changing information. It helped to act as an information hub, with input coming from multiple directions. The PLDF tends to be a sequential (and often fragmented) method of aggregating information, and any tools that expand or improve it are a great idea (this is not a criticism of PLDF at all).
Personally I was not happy to have to sign up for a google ID etc because I tend to be a little paranoid, but at least I Iearned that the actual collaborative process that Google docs provided was very valuable, and I was pleased that gcmartin did not belittle my contribution in any way - he actively encouraged me to inject my thoughts into his project.
So what we'd have is a dev taking orders from dozens of people about how something should be done. And yes I used the word 'orders' on purpose... If the dev is just doing what other people want with no care for his own thoughts... then he/she isnt taking suggestions, they are taking orders.
Collaboration only works if it is voluntary for all concerned. I am assuming that gcmartin is suggesting that certain specific goals be set and that any contributor be able to include or withdraw themselves at any time. This is just what the PLDF offers, but I think he is suggesting that there are other methods that assist the process in a material way.
So when you have an unbalanced field, how can everyone work together equally?
I guess the contributions don't have to be equal. It would be interesting to see what the outcome would be if a project was DEFINED and just left up to nobody / anybody. I think that is the crux of jamesbonds post about Valve.
Nobody feels "put-upon" because their involvement is not "required" - it is voluntary. In that Valve article they talk about having their desks on wheels so that it is quick and easy for an individual to include or absent themselves from a particular project. Which raises the question for me of exactly WHERE does the project reside? WHERE does the information actually exist? Do they use some form of database to manage their projects, or rely on the collective memories of individuals. Who tracks the progress?
If someone had a specific Puppy project in mind, what would be the best way to assemble a skeleton for the project to build on? Is it possible to use something like Visio as an adjunct to PLDF? Or are we stuck with the sequential unrolling of the process in an adhoc way?
Is there some way to have a central hub (Visio, Google Doc etc etc) that spawns multiple PLDF threads, yet weaves them into the final project, just as it was DEFINED in the first place.
Yes, this would defy the creative and multidirectional tendencies of the current PLDF, but might suit specific targeted purposes.
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Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3217
Posted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 15:58
Post subject:
greengeek wrote:
If someone had a specific Puppy project in mind, what would be the best way to assemble a skeleton for the project to build on? Is it possible to use something like Visio as an adjunct to PLDF? Or are we stuck with the sequential unrolling of the process in an adhoc way?
In the Valve article, Abrash had to find new ways to achieve what he wanted, thus learning new skills in the process. That's what "creativity" is about, doing something unique, vs working in a firm where you hammer out assignments.
Some people function better in collectives, where decisions are made by consensus. I don't think you'll find many creative individuals within the ranks. Many programmers are also artists, musicians.
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Yuki Noguchi
Yuki Noguchi joined NPR News in May 2008 as a correspondent. She is a general assignment reporter covering business for NPR's National Desk. She began reporting for NPR in Washington during hectic times, with the 2008 presidential race underway and as the economy started to experience severe turmoil. Her stories have ranged from declines in SUV sales at Carmax to profiles of important figures involved in the Wall Street bailout. Noguchi's pieces can be heard on Morning Edition, All Things Considered and Weekend Edition Sunday.
Before joining NPR, Noguchi worked at The Washington Post, first as a reporter and later as an editor. Starting in 1999, she covered economic development. Starting in 2000, she covered telecommunications and wrote stories about the major industry mergers, the Federal Communications Commission and the rise of some of the Internet giants. On the side, she also wrote about her love of swing dancing. Later, she covered consumer technology, writing features about people and their relationships with their gadgets. This was her favorite beat. Most recently, Noguchi directed the paper's coverage of national technology news. Prior to joining the Post, Noguchi reported on business and politics for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle and The Orlando Sentinel.
Noguchi's parents left Japan to study in the U.S. in the early 1970s. Noguchi and her younger brother grew up in St. Louis. She received her B.A. in history from Yale University. During a year off, she studied in Yokohama, Japan, and worked for Kyodo News Service in Tokyo. She is fluent in Japanese and speaks conversational German. She has forgotten the bulk of a class in Arabic.
Noguchi lives with her husband, Christopher Libertelli, in Bethesda, Maryland. Outside of NPR she practices yoga and still loves swing dancing.


text:
For the past two Tuesdays, I've left the office early, made a mad dash through Harvard Square and up Mass Ave, searched for a parking spot, and stood at a long table in a hot room with a bunch of strangers. It's an exhausting end to a full day at work, but after the first week, I was ready. I brought a pair of ballet flats to change into. I wore a short sleeve dress. I mentally prepared myself to be patient.
Week two was tarts and pies. We skipped the food processor in favor of our hands.
There was squishing cold butter and flour between fingers and crumbling it into little pieces. There was scooping and tossing sandy dough with fingertips to mix it with water. There was pushing dough with heels of hands and smearing it across the counter.
I let my mind wander. I let my hands feel. I let my day slip away.
There was banter as my neighbors and I got to know each other while working the dough and making sure not to overwork it. We checked out each other's progress, comparing doughs as they just barely came together. We wrapped up dough and piled parcels into the refrigerator.
There was slicing and stirring and whipping and melting and tasting while doughs chilled and we made fillings.
There was pushing and pulling of French rolling pins, sliding of palms over tapered ends as dough flattened and thinned across the floured counter.
There was divvying up of tart pans and cutting up of dough. There was light pressing of dough into the slides of pans. There was rolling of pins across edges of pans and trimming of excess dough.
There were rogue pie weights to chase as they spun out of reach.
There were tart crusts to check in the hot oven. There were fillings to fill and filled tarts to bake.
We admired our handiwork.
Pâte brisée (short pastry) by hand
The key to makng a flaky crust is to start with very cold ingredients, to not overwork the dough, and to not add too much liquid. I love all the French terminology, so you may find a few quick French lessons thrown into the recipe.
This recipe makes one tart/pie crust. If you are making a double crust pie, you'll need to double this recipe.
– 1 1/2 C flour
– 1/8 t salt
– 4 ounces (8 T) unsalted butter
– 3-4 T ice water
Combine. Combine the flour and salt on the countertop.
Cut. Weigh or measure the very cold butter. Cut it into 1-inch cubes.
Pinch. Place the butter on the counter and cover it with the flour-salt mix. Pinch and gently smush the butter into the flour until you get pea-sized pieces.
Sabler. Sabler means to reduce into sand. (Sable is sand and French sables are crumbly cookies such as pecan sandies.) Cut into the butter flour mixture with a bench scraper until it resembles sand.
Papillon. A papillon is a butterfly. Spread the sandy mixture into a long rectangle and form a trough down the center. Drip a tablespoon of water all along the trough, and then with your fingers spread, fluff and flutter the sand into the center to gently incorporate it into the water. Using a bench scraper, gather the forming dough and repeat the papillon step a tablespoon of water at a time. The dough will start to come together in shaggy pieces. The dough is ready when you squeeze it and it sticks together. Don't add too much water, or when you bake the dough, it will shrink down and away from the tart pan sides and your tart will be too shallow. Weather will affect the dough – if it's humid, add less water.
Fraisage. Gather the dough together into a pile, and then with the palm of your hand, push it away from you against the counter a few times. The etymology of fraisage is a little complicated, but here's my best attempt. The non-cooking definition of fraisage is the act of drilling. The verb fraiser means to sheer. Though it's spelled differently, I'm convinced that fraiser (and therefore fraisage)) s related to the shear forces of physics. Remember your physics? I remembered just barely enough to look up the phrase. Essentially shearing is the deformation of a material in which parallel surfaces slide past each other. So, you push the pâte with the heel of your hand, and the flour and butter slide past each other. When I did this, I could imagine the layers of flakiness starting to form. Check out the second picture – you can see distinct flaky layers on the front left edge of the tart.
Chill. Gather the dough together and press it into a disc (about an inch thick). Wrap in plastic and chill for at least 30 minutes.
Roll. Lightly flour the counter. Place the disc of cold dough on the counter and using a large rolling-pin, push the dough away from you, pull it towards you, and then turn the dough 90 degrees. Repeat the push-pull-turn combo until you've rolled the dough out into a circle 1/8-inch thick.
Cut. Place a tart or pie pan on the rolled-out dough and use a sharp knife to cut out a circle (or whatever shape your pan is) an inch from the pan edge for a tart or two inches for a deep-dish pie. You want to make sure that the dough will be large enough to go up the sides of the pan.
Press. Lift the dough and place it on top of the pan. Gently press it into the corners and up the edges. Roll a rolling-pin across the top of the pan to trim off the excess dough.
Chill. Chill the pan in the refrigerator for 1 hour or the freezer for 15 minutes.
Blind bake. Preheat oven to 425ºF. Prick the chilled dough all over with a fork, cover it with parchment paper and then fill the pan with pie weights. Bake for 10-15 minutes. Carefully remove the hot pie weights and parchment, and continue to bake for another 5 minutes until the crust is light golden.
Reduce heat. Lower the oven to 350ºF.
Fill. Fill the crust with whatever filling you're using.
Bake. Bake for 30-45 minutes (will vary from filling to filling).
After blind-baking a pâte brisée crust, fill it with this pear and dried tart cherry combination. This tart is not particularly sweet and the addition of rosemary provides a savory note. A friend of mine called it a sophisticated, subtle, and grown-up tart.
– 6 firm ripe Bosc pears
– 1 1/2 C dried tart cherries
– 1/2 C light brown sugar
– 3-4 sprigs fresh rosemary (1 t chopped)
– 2 T lemon juice
– 1 T cornstarch
Preheat. Preheat the oven to 425ºF.
Cut. Peel and core the pears and cut them into 1/2-inch pieces. Chop the rosemary leaves very finely.
Cook. Cook the pears, cherries, brown sugar, and rosemary in a pot over moderate heat, stirring frequently. It should take about 20 minutes until the pears are tender.
Thicken. Whisk together the lemon juice and cornstarch in a small cup. Then stir into the cooked pear mixture and bring to a boil for about 1 minute until the mix thickens.
Cool. Let the fruit cool before adding to the tart crust.
Prepare tart crust. Make, roll, and blind bake a tart at 425ºF for 15 minutes. Remove the pie weights and bake for another 5 minutes.
Fill. Fill the tart crust with the cooled fruit.
Bake. Lower the oven to 350ºF. Bake the tart for 30-40 minutes.


text:
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