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text:
1.Delivery Time And Delivery Methord
The Runescape Gold delivery time depends on the seller's commitment time and delivery speed. General speaking, It takes about 10 minutes to 24 hours. There are usually several ways to delivery game goods: Face to Face Delivery, In-game Mailbox delivery, Game Auction House delivery. If the seller does not delivery within the promised time, please communicate with the seller in time, or contact our online customer service. Note that Do Not Trust Anyone Who Wants Trade You After You Get Runescape Gold.
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Prices set by other players or PowerSellers on Runescapegold4u are considerably lower than the high markups you would find on expensive retail sites. Runescapegold4u is Quite simply the most secure place to buy and sell Runescape Gold. You are 100% guaranteed full and as-described delivery. Runescapegold4u guarantees that the seller will deliver your order, or your money back.
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For Players or Professional seller who want to sell Runescape Gold, Please register on our website and select the game, server and the type(Game Currency, Items And Skins, Accounts, PowerLeveling, CDKeys And Codes). Then give a reasonable price and write some description for your goods. When a buyer places an order with you, please contact him and deliver it in time. When the customer confirms the delivery, you will receive the disbursement.
Copyright © 2008-2019 runescapegold4u All rights reserved.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Once you start working with some of the handy new C++11 features, it is a bit difficult to stop using them simply because you want to work on an Android project. Fortunately, the Android NDK supports C++11 features, although they are not enabled by default. The default Android NDK configuration provides only a minimal C++ runtime support library and doesn't include the necessary flags to activate available C++11 features. In this article, I explain how set up a project to use C++11 features, relying on Eclipse and the latest available Android NDK, version r9d.
Consider a very common scenario in which you want to create a new Android app by reusing existing C++ code. In these cases, a typical solution is to develop the UI in Java and use the Java Native Interface (JNI) to make calls to the C++ code from Java (and the other way around if necessary). If your existing C++ code has been written taking advantage of C++11 features, you certainly would not want to create a new version removing all these C++11 features just to make it fit with the default Android NDK configuration.
Fortunately, you can activate the NDK's C++11 features to allow you to work with modern C++ amenities, and you can go on using the
auto keyword, lambda expressions, and other useful C++11 features.
I'll assume that you have basic experience working with Eclipse, Android Development Tools (ADT), and the Android NDK; hence, I won't provide specific instructions for the basic setup of these tools. You will need ADT and NDK installed on your system in order to test the examples. Because ADT and NDK have important changes in each new release, it's important to note that I am using ADT Build v22.6.2-1085508 and NDK Revision 9d. This way, I can focus on the necessary configurations and tweaks related to C++11 and the related features. I'll use a simple example Android app that employs a few C++11 features combined with some use of the Standard Templates Library (STL). Finally, I'll explain additional options and configurations that you might need to consider.
Example Project
Create a new project in Eclipse and select the Android Application Project wizard. I use
Cplusplus11 for both Application Name and Project Name, and the package name is
com.example. I leave the default options for the different steps within the wizard, and I select the Blank Activity option with the Create Activity checkbox activated. I use the default activity name,
MainActivity. This way, the wizard will create a Cplusplus11/src/com.example.cplusplus11/MainActivity.java file that defines the
MainActivity Java class as a subclass of
ActionBarActivity. I'll go back to the Java code later.
Now, it is necessary to add native support to the project. Right-click on the recently created project in the Project Explorer and select Android Tools | Add Native Support…. I use
libCplusplus11.so as the library name. Notice that you simply need to enter
cplusplus11 in the dialog box and the Eclipse plugin will add the
lib prefix. The Eclipse plugin will add a new
jni folder to the project with the following two elements (see Figure 1): cplusplus11.cpp and Android.mk
Figure 1: The sample Android application project structure in the Project Explorer after the native support has been added.
Right-click on the project in the Project Explorer again, and select Properties | C/C++ Build. Deactivate the Use Default Build Command checkbox and enter
ndk-build NDK_DEBUG=1 in the Build Command textbox. This way, the NDK debugger is enabled.
The default contents for the
Cplusplus11.cpp C++ source file is just a line that includes the
jni.h header:
#include <jni.h>
The default contents for the
Android.mk build file includes the following lines:
LOCAL_PATH := $(call my-dir) include $(CLEAR_VARS) LOCAL_MODULE := cplusplus11 LOCAL_SRC_FILES := cplusplus11.cpp include $(BUILD_SHARED_LIBRARY)
It is often helpful to use the Android logging features when you call C++ code from Java through the JNI, so I add the following line to pass the name of the specific system library that provides Android logging features and tell the linker to generate a module that links to
/system/lib/liblog.so at load time. Notice that
-llog is decomposed in the
-l option followed by
log; that is, the library name with neither the
lib prefix nor the
.so extension.
LOCAL_LDLIBS := -llog
The following lines show the new contents of the
Android.mk build file:
LOCAL_PATH := $(call my-dir) include $(CLEAR_VARS) LOCAL _MODULE := Cplusplus11 LOCAL_SRC_FILES := Cplusplus11.cpp # Generate a module that links to /system/lib/liblog.so at load time to enable logging LOCAL_LDLIBS := -llog include $(BUILD_SHARED_LIBRARY)
Now, it is necessary to add a new build file to the
jni folder named
Application.mk. This file describes which native modules the Android application requires. The following lines show the initial content that I use for this build file:
NDK_TOOLCHAIN_VERSION := 4.8 APP_ABI := armeabi armeabi-v7a x86 mips # Enable C++11. However, pthread, rtti and exceptions aren't enabled APP_CPPFLAGS += -std=c++11 # Instruct to use the static GNU STL implementation APP_STL := gnustl_static LOCAL_C_INCLUDES += ${ANDROID_NDK}/sources/cxx-stl/gnu-libstdc++/4.8/include
The default compiler is GCC 4.6. The
NDK_TOOLCHAIN_VERSION key specifies the
4.8 value to define the toolchain to use GCC 4.8 as the compiler. The default configuration of the NDK build system generates the machine code for the
armeabi ABI; that is, the
ARMv5TE-based CPU. The
APP_ABI value allows you to select different ABIs.
If you are developing on Windows and you meet the necessary hardware requirements, it is usually a good idea to install the Intel x86 Emulator Accelerator (HAXM), which speeds up Android emulation on Windows. If you are working with this accelerated emulator, the CPU/ABI of your target Android Virtual Device (AVD) will be
Intel Atom (x86), so you will need to include
x86 in the
APP_ABI values. In this example, I've included all the target ABIs in
APP_ABI, but you can specify only the ones you need. Notice that you can achieve the same effect by using
APP_ABI := all. There are many additional options for
APP_ABI, but I wanted to focus on the importance of this setting because when you use different CPU/ABI configurations in your target AVD, the Java code will raise an exception if you try the load the library and you didn't specify the right values for
APP_ABI (since the appropriate library won't be generated).
APP_CPPFLAGS key specifies the set of C++ compiler flags passed when building C++ source. The following line enables the supported C++11 features for all your modules. However, you must take into account that pthread, RTTI, and exceptions aren't enabled by default. The C++11 support includes the
auto keyword and lambda expressions. There is also support for
std::thread, but note that there are still some problems with the usage of
std::thread that lead to unexpected app crashes.
APP_CPPFLAGS += -std=c++11
As I explained before, I want to use some STL features, so the following line specifies the static GNU STL implementation. There are other alternatives, such as the STLport library and the experimental libc++ implementation introduced in NDK r9d. You can read more information about libc++ here.
APP_STL := gnustl_static
Finally, it is necessary to specify the path for the GNU STL implementation headers. The following line specifies the path to these headers included in the NDK folders. Because I've specified that the toolchain use GCC 4.8, I make sure the headers path corresponds to version 4.8. Notice that you must have the Android NDK path configured in Eclipse. To do this, select Window | Preferences | Android | NDK, and make sure that the NDK location value is properly configured.
LOCAL_C_INCLUDES += ${ANDROID_NDK}/sources/cxx-stl/gnu-libstdc++/4.8/include


text:
- Reviews
5.0 / 5.01 ReviewDurability5.0 / 5Reliability5.0 / 5Performance5.0 / 5Ease Of Use5.0 / 5Value5.0 / 5Would You Recommend?Yes (1)Durability5 / 5Reliability5 / 5Performance5 / 5Ease Of Use5 / 5Value5 / 5Would You Recommend?YesI like it enough that we are going to buy one more of them .They are great and we live out in the woods. We have a deck that goes around three sides of our house, and we like to sit and eat out there in the evening !!
July 3, 2020Purchased
- Was this review helpful? Yes (0) No (0)
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- Flag as Inappropriate
- Order With Confidence
Our Guarantee
Our guarantee has not changed since we introduced our first product in 1962. If for any reason you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase, let us know – we will make it right. If you would like a refund or exchange, please return the product on a timely basis (within 30 days), in the same condition in which it was received. After 30 days, we will continue to support the product for a full year, but refunds and exchanges are not accepted. Personalized products such as embroidered shirts or engraved glasses are not returnable.
Price Guarantee
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Orders shipping to the United States have three shipping options: ground (which typically takes 3-5 days), 2-day air, or overnight. Note that these are days in transit are business days, so Saturday and Sunday are not included. We ship by UPS and US Mail.
Overnight shipping is also available on most items.
Return Policy
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text:
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text:
CATERPILLAR 2095636 D8T TRANSMISSION for salePOA
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|Listing Type
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Make an enquiryCall now: 07 3373 2900
RD Williams Parts
29 Dunn Road
Rocklea, QLD


text:
« first day (501 days earlier)
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09:00 - 19:00
19:00 - 20:00
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Grace Note
This marks the end of the Town Hall Chat
. I would like to thank all of the candidates for participating here, and for running in this election, as well as everyone who came to ask questions.
Candidates, if you don't have to speed off, feel free to continue posting answers.
Andrew Barber
Thank you!
Grace Note
I wish everyone good luck in the elections!
Robert Harvey
Remember, you can still complete your answer; the digest should include a few minutes after the Town Hall. Just remember to link to the original question.
@Shog9 Some (recent) questions surprise me in the number of votes they get even though in my view they're pretty poor questions. Some of them can be improved with edits. Some get comments (and presumably flags too) that validates this. In the remaining questions there's a judgement call to be made, but closed questions can be reopened and the new wording on the close messages makes this quite a bit clearer which I think goes some way towards helping make closure a less bitter pill to swallow.
@RobertHarvey If you put all of the candidates in a line in random order then the 5th one from the right. Its simple math :)
@TimStone Feedback is important to improve yourself so if something on meta was related to me or a decision I made I would of course check if they have a point - and possibly learn from it.
@KendallFrey I'd leave it as it is.
dangit. I had questions, but got dragged off to an hour long set of meetings
Andrew Barber
@KendallFrey If such an answer were made
, I don't expect it would last long at all. I understand the general idea of wanting "Epic Historical" posts around, but I don't know how useful that answer is - especially when just linked to in a comment on more recent questions.
@Lix You've never edited? I don't believe you.
@casperOne I don't agree with editing spam out of deleted spam answers. It makes it harder to spot if the next possibly spammy answer on that question is a re-post of previously deleted stuff or not. I've seen a few moderators do that, I disagree but it's hardly something I'd rollback and it's been discussed on meta a few times.
Brad Larson
@Lix As I said in a comment on his nomination, I regularly run across George Stocker while performing cleanup tasks, and his posts on Meta have contained some of the most well-thought-out arguments about site policy that I've read. He gets little recognition for this, though. Similarly, @awoodland has shown dedication to keeping things clean and has supported people well on Meta, which are great traits for a moderator.
Second the "you never see George until he's RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU AAAAAH!" comment.
right, I'm off to sleep. Thanks @GraceNote for the THC & @TimStone.. you're gonna have a hard time in collating the replies ;P
@ErnestFriedmanHill I'd like to see more first time users familiar with how the site works, what's on topic etc. so they don't walk into the usual traps. I think that would benefit everyone - they would perceive people as more friendly and regular users would get less frustrated and abrasive.
@ErnestFriedmanHill Bring back the old
"no answers" style
Tim Stone
@Sathya I'll work some magic, no worries. ;)
@TimStone ;)
@Aarthi reply once and reply well. If that doesn't cut it a full blown argument helps nobody so the only constructive thing to do is take a step back and avoid making things worse.
Ernest Friedman-Hill
@ThiefMaster +1
@Aarthi Case-by-case. For things like this there is no general solution so you have to consider each case on its own.
@Shog9 I love editing things on the site - I find myself missing markdown wherever I go... Its the best isn't it? :P. Voting to close questions is a regular occurance for me - possibly becuase of my sometimes heavy hand but mostly because of the reason these moderator elections are being held - there is a lot of content in need of cleaning up; And there is more and more every day.
@waxeagle Post it on meta, see what the community thinks about it and if there is enough positive feedback ping the devs or someone from the SE community team about it in case they didn't notice it.
Brad Larson
Glad to be here. I have to run off to my next session at the conference, but thanks for the opportunity to participate and the kind words. Hope the election goes well for everyone.
@waxeagle if it's something that can be done in a user script that's a pretty good way of making showing things work and showing people like it. There have been a few things that have come through that way. Bounties on feature requests tend to work quite well sometimes for showing support and attracting developer attention. I'd rather avoid bugging developers in chat though.
@RobertHarvey Nope. Especially spam and non-answers are incredibly quick anyway. And since I booted a few hundred spam drones from IRC a few hours ago those numbers don't really intimidate me. Even though you probably can't really compare a single command to get rid of easy-to-spot infected clients and checking 30 answers if they are really non-answers.
oh man what did I miss?
@BoltClock Looking at the time when the bounty was placed and the time the refund was requested an honest mistake would be viable for a refund. If answers have already popped up then things are a bit more tricky - I don't think that bounties should be refunded at all if (valid !NAA) answers are already posted.
@RobertHarvey not particularly intimidating. I'm more limited by my 15 delete votes (and lack of other options in some cases) in terms of the number of flags I look at in the flag queue than anything else.
@TimStone I'd check flags and handle anything which I'd notice as a regular user, too. I'd keep "using" SO after all and when noticing something that should be dealt with there'd be no reason to wait for someone to flag it. Before becoming moderator I'd have flagged it anyway and from a look on my "helpful/declined flag" count my flags usually fit with what the mods think is correct.
@casperOne Hard to state a finite amount of time for this... I'd say once I make it into the
The Wheel of Blame!
things should start going into auto pilot :)
@Hans You are not going to miss me singing "Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz."
@TimStone largely dealing with things people bring to moderators attention. Letting users guide the site involves allowing close/reopen/delete/undelete to occur "organically" in borderline cases to my mind. Unilateral action on unflagged content has to be reserved for only rare, completely unambiguous cases.
@Gilles If the answers were posted almost at the same time and are possibly rather simple chances are good it was just coincidence. I'd mention this to both users and hope that the issue is resolved with that. If not it depends on factors like the behaviour of the users what to do.
@Gilles if the edits come in the grace period it's hard to prove anything as a moderator. I think developers have access to more detailed information (like POST requests from clients) which would reveal that information. It's not really something worth pursuing to that level though unless the users have a history of doing things like this. There might be other side evidence tough, e.g. unedited comments which reveal something. Annotations on the accounts might be worth looking at.
@jmort253 I did 5 hours of IRC support in a gaming network (i.e. lots of "time-consuming" users) for about three years and never experienced any issues like this. Probably burnout is unlikely to happen at my age anyway. But I don't have any specific strategies - never needed them. If I did get some issues at some point I'd probably ask for a short break.
@TimStone With regard to the action that was taken I don't think that someone posting on meta about it will give me a change of heart. That is of course unless a piece of crucial information comes to light in the meta post. Every action you take and its ramifications should affect your decision making process in the future.
@jmort253 the good stuff about the site is the most important thing at the end of the day. Sometimes I go and look for good content specifically instead of looking for the bad stuff. That's interesting, distracting and puts the bad things in perspective. I hope that would continue to work as a moderator too.
@ThiefMaster It sounds like everyone who answered this question so far has really good experience and strategies for avoiding burnout. This will make the decision tough, as we have a great pool of candidates.
@KendallFrey It is a fun way to convey useful information which makes it a great answer - it contains good information and is still amusing to read while not. And I think it's one of the most awesome questions on SO which would deserve overflowing the score data type. :p
@KendallFrey Locked seems like a sensible status. It reflects a frustration that some users felt at the time I think. It conveys the message reasonably well although I would rather write something more neutral personally it's not offensive.
@jmort253 Not sure if it counts as a strategy, but since I a) use SO between other things (i.e. not like a hard 10-hour job) and b) it's a hobby I don't think there is a big risk of burning out.
@ThiefMaster: It's a meme though, seldomly used in a polite way, and it incurs a lot of bickering and extra moderation effort. Is it worth to keep for "historic significance"? (euphemism for google juice). Would you have the moderation guts to delete a similar popular joke post, one which you're less attached to e.g.?
Yannis Rizos
@ThiefMaster Oh, you're in for a surprise ;P
@YannisRizos As somebody who is an IRC operator for 6 years (and a few months) now I think I'm pretty ready to moderate a chat, too. Especially since the users in the SO chat seem to be much more mature than most users on gaming IRC networks.
@YannisRizos chat flags are tricky. They depend an awful lot on context - one user calling another names could be friendly and intimate or rude and insulting. Making that judgement call quickly is hard sometimes. In some rooms the regulars seem very good at making that call quite quickly, I wouldn't want to interfere with that, but I've seen a fair few flags on chat so I don't think it'd be a huge problem stepping up a bit. Being active on chat is a plus here I think.
@casperOne This incident occurred while going through the lists of posts from the
2012 cleanup effort
. I would raise all my flags at my disposal (40+) and get them all "resolved" by one moderator closing the post with the appropriate NARQ or NC notice. Once day and on one batch of flags, all the questions were deleted instantly.
@mario Yes, historic significance - and things being grandfathered - are valid reasons to keep something in my opinion. Besides that, I'm strongly against "depublishing" well-known things.
@mario However, with
like "what's your favourite programming meme" etc. which got deleted some time ago I'd rather (i.e. if possible) go a way that profits everyone: not keeping them as questions directly on SO but redirecting to some kind of "SO graveyard" containing "memorials" of nice/amusing/funny things that were on SO but don't fit here anymore
@casperOne I think that when the instruction went out to flag old posts becuase they wouldn't receive enough attention (not necessarily because of the content) that the team should have had a singular action. Only one batch of 40+ flags resulted in immediate post deletions.
So, who is going to offer salami?
I came mainly for that reason.
/me prefers a salami pizza.
@GraceNote I'm probably shooting myself in the foot here, but I don't think the outcome of the elections will be a huge change of behaviour or time for me, whichever way it goes. After the last election I probably spent more time flagging and got more involved on meta. I don't see my involvement dropping either way. I'd be happy if the community decided they trusted me enough to give me access to more tools, but not taking offence if there's other better qualified candidates you'd rather vote for.
@ThiefMaster I thought that was called pepperoni pizza. That is fine for me too.
@ErnestFriedmanHill Live refresh on the election page :)
It's funny that in Italian "pepperoni" means peppers, as in belly peppers.
Now that I chat mainly in English, I doubt of how I write Italian words.
But actually, I'd rather take some pepperoni chips. ;p
@Aarthi Take it out of the public eye - possibly into mod messages (not sure of the protocol here)
@GeorgeStocker: Did you just remove the salami from this room?! :p
@waxeagle Possible duplicate of "How does the bounty system work?" ;)
@RobertHarvey Not in the slightest. If anything we'll be able to take that with a pinch of salt becuase 3 more users are on their way up to help :)
@TimStone If I see a post in need of moderation there is no need to wait - I'll take action right then and there - I'm already looking at the post. I think the bulk of the work will be dealing with issues brought to the moderators.
@Gilles clean up the comments, tell the offending users not to use the comment threads as a platform for arguments and depending on the escalation of the incident suspensions might be in order.
George Stocker
Sorry about that guys, my team is releasing a product this week, and we have been in impromptu meetings all day.
If there is another one of these, I'd be glad to take part.
Rebecca Chernoff
@GeorgeStocker you can just add your responses now, they'll make it into the digest posted on meta
George Stocker
Sounds good.
Hopefully all the questions were starred (they were, right?)
@GeorgeStocker a couple of non-questions got starred, but yes.
@GeorgeStocker I ran out of stars near the end, but someone was still starting I think
Rebecca Chernoff
@GeorgeStocker that's the idea
@KendallFrey Touchy subject there... Locking the post is definitely the right choice but it's historical significance (as the notice states), IMO, earn it the right to stay put.
@jad... this is EXHAUSTING! :P heheh
George Stocker
@TimStone Two users are cursing at each other? Seems like they've both lost their cool. First things first is to ping them both and let them know to not do this in public. Then, remove the rubber necking effect by removing the comments that do not add value to the question. Lock the question [if necessary]. Then reach out to them, figure out what has got them upset. Listen; respond, and reiterate that that sort of behavior isn't welcome, but their contributions are.
@casperOne I feel like I already do this. At least for my day-to-day activity, the Diamond would just make it so that I didn't have to burden anyone else with obviously actionable stuff. Right now it feels like there's not enough people out there actually cleaning up the content, and that's what I spend the majority of my time doing on the site.
@casperOne I've been around Stack Overflow for a long time, so I've grown accustomed to the ebb and flow of the community sentiment around what belongs on the site and what does not. To me, that's a positive trait to have in being a moderator: Understanding the community. On the negative side, I tend to think I'm right, even when I'm not. That's where asking other moderators for help will come in. If it's a borderline problem, I'll elicit help.
@MichaelMrozek New Users are both the ones that need the most patience and the most moderation. When I can, I try to salvage borderline questions with good edits. When the question is too bad to be salvaged, I'll leave a comment and vote to close. That won't change as moderator: I'll still take the time to edit those questions that have good potential.
George Stocker
@JeremyHolovacs Moderators disagree? Never. (Kidding). It's just as important for moderators to be on the same page as it is for the question to be handled correctly. Between the two, I'd rather the question be handled correctly than the moderators be on the same page -- but that's why Moderators should work together and borderline questions should be looked at by more than one moderator before action.
@TimStone Always Editing. Edit the question if you think it can be salvaged. If it can't be salvaged (and if you edit a lot of questions, you get a feel for what can be salvaged), then it should be closed and potentially deleted. People imitate the actions they see those that have 'power' take. If as a Mod you edit a lot of questions, people will hopefully see that as positive reinforcement to edit questions when they can.
@funkymushroom When you edit a question, you shouldn't change the intent of the question -- but there's a lot of leeway to make that question better for someone else that has that problem.
@waxeagle There have been very few flags that I've ever been borderline on. Most of the problems are visibly apparent. In situations where they haven't been, I've taken the following tack when flagging: "This question seems to have these problems. I feel like I need another person to validate the problems I see. Flagging this question for [closure, deletion] based on these reasons. "
@MichaelMrozek It makes me want to make doubly sure the actions I'm taking are correct. This feeds into taking borderline questions to the group [of moderators].
@JeremyHolovacs I've taken a different tack than others here. I've spent a lot of time editing questions, and only flagging when I was either out of close votes for the day, or when I wasn't sure I was making the right call (or I thought the question was egregious enough that it needed moderator attention). Most people flag and move on (I explain the reasons why I think that happens here:
@Shog9 I use them all the time; I use the /review dashboard the least (because with the number of flags we have, it takes some time to go through all of them during a workday). I'm very comfortable with them.
@YannisRizos For most sites it's pretty clear what belongs where -- we're at the point now where the migration paths are much clearer than they used to be, so it's not often that you'll see a question migrated to programmers. If there are borderline questions, either leave it in place or take it to the group.
@Kalamane define 'isn't exactly on topic'. If it's a "What's your favorite programmable [thing]", then that's a question that is really off topic. (Both as a list of X question, as a not constructive question, and as a question that's better posed on Reddit).
@BoltClock When the bounty was put on the question because the question was off topic and the OP put the bounty on the question so it couldn't be closed. That's when I'd do that. If we had more users that could handle the amount of traffic we need to handle for closing questions, then I may not -- but right now we have a lot of traffic, and not very many people [ratio wise] that vote to close questions that are demonstrably off-topic. Questions get through the cracks.
@TimStone I have a history of being on meta, participating, and seeing what the community sentiment is. I even try to post what I believe the direction should be. If I ever take an action that rubs the community (as a whole, instead of one user negatively affected), then I suspect there will be a very visible outcry on meta (as there would be if any mod did something like that). It's healthy, and I'll listen where needed.
@Aarthi I may be in the minority here, but I like to be open about the actions I take. There shouldn't be a question as to why I did something (If the reason is not evident, then I've failed). I am happy to make my case on meta, but as I've seen in the past, if you do something correct, and someone complains about it, the community will post their opinions. If you're in the 'right' then you'll be vindicated by the community.
@waxeagle They're allowed to ignore feature requests. If it's something that blocks me from doing my job as a moderator, I'll keep an active line of communication about it; but I don't expect the Dev team to implement anything just because someone says they need it. Since I'm a developer myself, I'd do my best to try to implement it, show them the value, and go from there.
@RobertHarvey No.
@TimStone The role of a moderator is to make decisions in cases where the community can't (or doesn't have a consensus) and to remove actively harmful content from the site. As part of that, it's my 'job' to go through the flag queue, but I'm also there to see things as they occur. As a moderator, I'll follow the same process I do now: Try to salvage bad [but potentially good] questions, close blatantly bad questions, and ask other moderators about the borderline issues.
@Gilles Happens all the time (two answers with similar content). Let the community sort it out through votes. If the answerers are smart, they'll do things to differentiate their answers from one another (solving the problem themselves). There's really no way to say what is plagiarized unless it's a word for word replica. If it is, I'll talk to the user involved, but otherwise -- let the community handle it.
@jmort253 I normally come to SO during breaks in work (or during builds, or lunch) for the last (almost) four years. I haven't gotten burned out yet. I don't see that changing.
@KendallFrey It's been handled appropriately. It's locked because the answer is contentious. It's staying on the site because it's helpful and it's funny. It's so helpful because it is so funny. I don't see any reason to change that.
@YannisRizos Yes. Moderator chat; I haven't seen chat outside of that work too well (unless there's a specific question), but I would be in chat where needed.
@GraceNote Moderation is about taking the actions needed to keep the community clean. It's not unlike that of a janitor or gardener. It is not glorious work. It's not all about laying down the law, either. It's about doing the work necessary to keep the community going and thriving. Some days that means editing questions; others that means tracking down troublesome users; sometimes it means closing questions. Use the right tool for the job. I've done that since day one, and that won't change.
@Lix @BradLarson is a great example of someone who understands what it takes to be a moderator. He doesn't just flag potentially great (but problematic) questions, he works to fix them. We need more people like that on Stack Overflow. Don't ask others to do that which you're not doing yourself.
Whew. Done.
Kendall Frey
Wow. I'm guessing you answered more questions than any other candidate.
George Stocker
If not, I at least made it appear that I did.
Michael Myers
The digest should make this (moderately) easier to follow
George Stocker
Indeed. Ok, time to head home. See you guys later.
@MichaelMyers Daily. Less on Mondays, but more on weekends, so it averages out.
Joel Rodgers
I wanted to know if moderators are compensated in anyway for their efforts?
@waxeagle Bump it by editing. As a moderator, my feature requests would still be just as important as before...
@RobertHarvey Nope! (Although all of that in 15 minutes is a little... wow. Not in an intimidated way, though.)
@TimStone "Primarily" both :) I browse the questions regularly, and I wouldn't stop doing that. Obvious offenders are obvious.
@KendallFrey It's mildly helpful, mildly annoying, pretty famous, and I'm fine with it staying exactly the way it is.
Tim Post
@JoelRodgers We get some neat stuff like T-Shirts, stickers, business cards, etc. And at the end of year a contribution to a charity we select is made in our name.
Michael Myers
@JoelRodgers If you count T-shirts and business cards, yes. Otherwise, no, the
adulation of the crowds
is the only reward.
Tim Post
Moderation is more often than not a thankless task. Doing it is a hobby and a way to give back to something that helped you. Once in a while though you do get a nice comment from a user that had a better experience due to some action you took.
@BrunoPereira It's not entirely true that there's no backing up; plenty of moderator actions are reversible. I definitely won't make any irreversible decisions that I'm not 100% sure of, and as for the rest, my CRAT (calculated reversible action threshold) appears to be 98.5%. I'm willing to do it... well, for the entire forseeable future. I want to do it because I like helping people.
@Shog9 I'd say I'm comfortable with them all. They're not difficult to pick up.
Tim Post
@minitech There
are occasions where you have to be extremely careful
, some actions that we take are in fact
difficult for a developer to undo if needed. However for the most part, tools that we have access to feature plenty of guard rails and safety nets just in case.
@YannisRizos To be honest, I don't use chat much so no, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking action on anything but the most obvious cases and I'd leave it to other moderators for as long as necessary to learn what the right course of action is :)
@TimPost Yup - the moderator-only sort of things are part of the 100%. Locking less, deleting less, closing less, editing less.
Yannis Rizos
@minitech Oh, that's Calculated Reversible Action Point... ;P
Travis J
@YannisRizos - Was that a reference to a simple seat without a back or arms?
Yannis Rizos
@TravisJ I can neither confirm or deny this is true
Travis J
@YannisRizos - I wouldn't expect it any other way. Clearly this does not have enough context and usually refers to an object instead of a boolean.
Yannis Rizos
@minitech Chat is... interesting (from a moderator perspective). Won't spoil the surprise ;)
@YannisRizos This worries me.
Yannis Rizos
@minitech Nah, don't worry about it. Remember, if elected, you'd be part of a team. Not just your fellow SO mods, but 100+ SE mods are here to help.
@YannisRizos Right :) Thanks.
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text:
Pitt87 wrote:Based on your preference, I think I would suggest is dinner at Six Penn, drinks after at Sharp Edge on Liberty... honestly, even dinner at Sharp Edge is great. If you are interested in a show, I think Stomp is here that weekend also.
llipgh2 wrote:NOLA in Market Square is really good, and not that expensive. New Diamond Cafe is pretty good too.
Letang Is The Truth wrote: elements is either hit or miss for me.
Letang Is The Truth wrote:oh really? wow didnt know that. is anything there now?
Shyster wrote:Letang Is The Truth wrote:oh really? wow didnt know that. is anything there now?
No, not yet. I'm sure Gateway Center's building management is looking for a new tenant. Elements had a really eclectic menu when it first opened, and I think it drove away the business-lunch crowd because that demographic didn't want to deal with "weird" food. While they did revamp their menu to include more conventional fare (pizzas, sandwiches, pasta dishes), I don't think they ever recovered.
Some good places downtown IMO:
Six Penn
Sonoma Grille
Nine on Nine
Las Velas Mexican Restaurant
Shyster wrote:
Some good places downtown IMO:
Six Penn
Sonoma Grille
Nine on Nine
Las Velas Mexican Restaurant
Letang Is The Truth wrote:Where is las Velasquez?
Kraftster wrote:It used to be in market square by Oyster House, but I think that location had a bad fire?
llipgh2 wrote:Letang Is The Truth wrote:Where is las Velasquez?
Don't know where that is...but Las Velas is in Market Square. :lol:
It's above the New Diamond Cafe.
Kraftster wrote:Oh, nice. Yeah I had something there one time that had me crying pretty badly. Habanero something.
Edit: Diabla Carne is what I had, I think.
llipgh2 wrote:They rebuilt in the same place.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


text:
Celebrating illustration, design, cartoon and comic art of the mid-20th century.
Tuesday, December 07, 2010
Haddon Sundblom: "[His paintings] have what people like!"
"Technically," writes Whitaker, "his paintings are always sunny. They and their characters and settings breath an air of refinement."
"They are romantic, idealistic, melodious, wholesome, healthy, pleasing. They look good. His men are men, his women desirable, his children adorable. He gives the human race cause for self-respect."
"Never do his compositions ever suggest anything sordid or depressing, either in color or in subject matter. They have what people like!"
"One might suggest," Whitaker concludes, "that the advocates of the mud-and-misery school of painting could learn much from contemplating the results."
* Thanks to Heritage Auctions for allowing me to use their scan of a Haddon Sundblom original at the top of today's post.
* Thanks also to Aron Gagliardo of the American Academy of Art for the photos of Sunny Sundblom's clip files, which are part of the Academy's collection. More on Sundblom's connection to the American Academy of Art ... tomorrow!
* My Haddon Sundblom Flickr set.
60 comments:
awesome awesome site! I love 1950/60's americana illustration, it's a great source of inspiration. you can check out my work over at my blog page if interested :) im always looking for new people to network withReplyDelete
My response to Fredric Whitaker's comment and opinion of Haddon Sundblom's illustrations, is compressed into just one word.. AMEN!ReplyDelete
Tom Watson
- Rich4:58 AM
Amen! As well...ReplyDelete
In these times I have seen Santa Claus taken for a ride in all kinds of distorted designs.
In Sundblom's I enjoy the complete lack of and freedom from cynicism.
- Remo7:02 AM
Personally I think it's a shame that Sundblom has become irrevocably linked with Coke because the quality of his work goes far beyond this easy categoriation.His work is always beautifully composed, his lighting and color are always well designed and appropriate and the fluency of his brushwork impeccable. I'd love to see more of his editorial work because any study of his work always ends up on bloody Cocoa Cola!ReplyDelete
He must have done a load more than that in his career.
- Remo4:30 PM
And what exactly WAS wrong with a bit of 'mud and misery'? Should everthing have been seen through this kitsch technicolor prism?ReplyDelete
BTW was Jon Whitcomb a Sundblom disciple, his work certainly has that look.
Ping: A few posts back you did a run on 1950's illustration. Don't get me wrong. I love 50s stylized minimalism. But, c'mon, just look at this stuff! Sundblom epitomizes a style of American illustration (1930s and 1940s) that was just so jaw-dropingly gorgeous nothing ever really compares. Look at the light in this stuff!!ReplyDelete
Very nice, thanks.ReplyDelete
- borky1:12 PM
This guy's stuff smacks of that feeling you got as a kid when you were first allowed to drink a small amount of alcohol at Christmas and everything seemed to suddenly become flooded with this warm sparkling glow like pure living sunlight and your heart felt like it'd explode with this feeling of intense love you felt for everyone, even complete strangers you'd pass on the street, and you realised that under the seemingly perpetually dull dreariness and endless shadowy tetchinesses of what we normally take for reality was this other brighter possibility of a greater reality where everyone and everything wished nothing but the best for each other and there'd be nothing but happy endings for all of us.ReplyDelete
I love your blog, really, really love, I have more respect for this golden age stuff all the time.ReplyDelete
Giving the human race cause for self-respect is not something we're hot on these days, a big subject but funny how things as apparently superficial as style and advertising make it really obvious.
is it kitsch or is it uncynical? Is this sunshiney thing the real thing or is the muddy moody thing the real thing? You could say it's all subjective but I'm not sure I believe that... I think believing the vision depends on how good the artist is...
I love Borky's commentReplyDelete
Okay, I'm certain to get groans from writing this, so first let me say that I adore Sundblom's work. However, it's important for me to also say that it's unfortunate he wasn't allowed to paint what ALL people would like, particularly people who weren't caucasian. This is not "the human race." The characters are NOT universal, but very specific. Yes, I understand why it was that way, but that article is just screaming it out to me, and I wouldn't have written this otherwise. Sorry for being a downer.ReplyDelete
DBClemons: A character can be "universal" or representative of "the human race" and still be of a specific race or country of origin. The definition of universal is having basic human characteristics that all human beings share or traits that touch something universal in all living men and women. Sundblom's characters are certainly universal. His catalog of work covers mostly white characters, but that does not mean that the emotions brought forth by his characters aren't universal simply because the characters are white.ReplyDelete
By your definition, none of Michelangelo statues would be universal simply because his subjects were all of a specific race; nether would any of the artwork by Van Gough, Matisse, Bellows, Wyeth, etc, etc.
- Remo12:43 PM
C'mon guys this is the 'real world' seen thru the eyes of advertising.To that extent it's ok but we also need to see the darker side of life, therein lies the thrilling drama of Maguire, Fawcett, Mcginnis et al.ReplyDelete
- Rich2:04 PM
To me it's a question of proportions:ReplyDelete
Of course we need not suppress "the darker side of life" in any artistic creation. Through all the times there have been awful and admirable renderings of hell, for instance, and it's happenings.
But speaking of our times: is there any scarcity of "mud and misery" in nowaday's multiple media? Isn't there rather a rareness of things fundamentally un-cynical?
I'm not fancy-go-lucky ignoramusing on any kitschy ideal world.
I enjoyed borky's irresistibly embracing and all-comprehending comment, as Chloe does, and having said this would like to wish you ALL a happy X-mas:-)
Interesting that examples of skillfully painted illustrations conveying the spirit and traditional esthetics of Santa Claus and Christmas, would induce snarky, snide and derogatory remarks from those that are apparently too hip and too enlightened with new wave ideals, to find these illustrations anymore meaningful than just sentimental advertising gimmickry.ReplyDelete
Hey, there's plenty of garbage showing the way over-the-top dark side category, at many museums of modern art.. so knock yourself out, if that's what turns you on!
Tom Watson
- Wes10:31 PM
I can't say it better than borky, but I can add that the ilustrations reflect an intense value for the sunniness and sensualness of existence, or at least for the charactars being depicted. This is a great line that says it all: "everything seemed to suddenly become flooded with this warm sparkling glow like pure living sunlight and your heart felt like it'd explode with this feeling of intense love ..."ReplyDelete
I have never heard of Jon Whitcomb working with or for Sundblom, but I can see the resemblance in the general idealization of the female face. Probably more a function of them both being influenced by other artists of the same time period. Whitcomb was born only seven years after Sundblom, in 1906.
Remo; I agree - there's nothing wrong with a little mud and misery. "Everything in moderation," is my dad's philosophy and I've always found that to be true. I think in this case, Whitaker was speaking from a position of having seen a dramatic shift in what art directors of the mid-1950s were rather suddenly embracing: illustration by a younger set influenced by abstract expressionism.ReplyDelete
I don't believe Whitaker would have considered Fawcett, MacGuire or McGinnis in the 'mud-and-misery' category, but rather the Robert Weaver types who were beginning to get quite a lot of ad and ed assignments - and whose work began appearing in the AD Annuals around this time - while Sundblom's stopped appearing.
Remo; Sundblom did do a lot of non-Coke work, especially in the first half of his career. Tom Watson has very kindly sent me a bunch of scans of those, which we'll look at next week. By the late '40s to early '50s, however, his work appears less and less often in the magazines - never as editorial art - and almost always as ad art for Coke. Its also the period when his Coke ads become most accomplished in terms of his technique. I think that's probably why we see those images most often.ReplyDelete
Chloe; Thanks for your comment - I'm really delighted to read that you love the blog. :^) Thanks to everyone for your comments as well!ReplyDelete
Mykal; I agree that Sundblom's stuff is a knock out, however I disagree that the '50s minimalistic stuff is somehow less worthy or accomplished. I think most artists find that over time they are searching for minimalism... the great comic book artist, Alex Toth, is a good example of an artist who accomplished that goal. Actually, in my opinion the secret to Sundblom's magical painting ability is that it is in fact incredibly minimalistic in its own way. Nothing is overworked or overrendered... he had the ability to mix exactly the right colour on the brush and place a daub in exactly the right spot with such confidence... its stunning!... and it works so beautifully.ReplyDelete
But some days I want to taste something sweet and some days I want something savory, you know? ;^)
Rich; There is still a lot of optimistic, sunny work being done today, one just has to look for it because the stuff that grabs the attention in the media is almost always overwhelmingly negative and depressing. The media today really embraces negativism, fear and horror (it seems to sell better, I guess), and as a result we get a distorted view of what all is out there. To be honest, I see more sunlight than storm clouds in the stuff I look at each day. But I'm not looking at the mainstream stuff.ReplyDelete
- Remo1:48 PM
I think there is a truth in great art that enables it to rise above simple good/bad categorisation.Sundblom's work captures a bright joyful mood but a lot of this kind of advertising art is cloying and fake.It was created by calculating marketing men to sell product and anyone who loses sight of that has been taken in as intended. Deliberately ugly art is just as fake,I personally find a lot of those 50s men's 'sweat' magazines featuring grotesque Nazis with whips etc really unpleasant.But a truthful statement, be it bathed in sunlight or wreathed in shadows remains a great thing.
Remo, Your first sentence made sense to me, after that, you lost me. I think you are looking at the mid century illustrations through your personal prism of todays world. I look at mid century illustrations through my perspective of 50 or 60 years ago. The ad people new that even if some people's lives were not ideal like the illustrations, it suggested what it could be. The only cynics that I knew were those that sneered and scoffed at mainstream society, and formed their own groups of artists, writers and poets, known as the 'Beatniks' and later the 'Hippies'. They thought they were enlightened, and above the norm. For the most part, attitudes weren't jaded, and the public responded to idealistic bright happy ads.ReplyDelete
Those Nazis with whips were no different from sword wielding Knights or pillaging Vikings that were depicted in turn of the century adventure stories. The truth is Nazis were not nice people, and that is how they were depicted in most illustrations. I don't have a problem with depicting the truth either.
Tom Watson
Tom; I can imagine that not everything about the ad business was just cynical manipulation - that at least some of the motivation behind ad campaigns was to 'lift the spirits' of the public, but surely ad people didn't naively believe the products they were helping their clients sell would improve the purchasers' lives.ReplyDelete
And surely even "regular folks" must have looked at the impossibly perfect world presented in Sundblom's Coke ads with something of a jaundiced eye...?
I've read quite a bit about the history of Mad magazine, which came out during the early '50s. The publisher, William Gaines, often included mock ad parodies for exactly that reason; Mad's 1950s readers loved the magazine because it exposed the hypocrisy of, for instance, cigarette and liquor advertising.
My point being, surely it wasn't just the beatniks who were cynical about mainstream society? Mad's circulation was in the millions during the '50s. I can't imagine that many young people wearing mohair shirts and berets and playing bongo drums while listening to beat poetry! ;^)
- Remo5:00 PM
Tom,I studied 20th century history to a high level and I know for a fact that those depictions of Nazis are ridiculous caricatures and you show your foolishness to believe the evil of these men can be depicted in such a cartoonlike manner. You also show yourself to be someone happier with a comfortable fiction than a unwelcome fact.Those ad execs on Madison Avenue were selling you a dream I'd have thought you might have have realized that by now.ReplyDelete
But of course 'Madmen'is full of idealists isn't it?
Remo and Leif, let me see if I've got this right from those that are obviously more qualified to correct my apparent distorted foolish observations and perceptions of mid century society and interpreting the illustrations of that period.... The 50s' Madison Ave ad men, most ad illustrations, corporate manipulators and perhaps even a deliberate U.S. government strategy working in tandem to cleverly plot and execute diabolical misleading implications and lies in advertising, magazine covers and other propaganda material, to clumsily and ridiculously hoodwink and brainwash the mindless public into thinking that the Nazi's were evil, Communism was evil, corporations were good and society was actually made up of decent hard working people, who were basically living happy, productive lives, bearing the fruits of a prosperous era after a great depression and four years of war and hardship. A gullible society that was conned into dreams of unrealistic pie-in-the-sky notions that their lives were not merely a hum-drum of mind numbing day to day struggles and a target for victimization.. sprinkled with those absurd visual depictions that life was actually full of sunlight, happiness, lovable beaming grandparents, bright shinny toothpaste ad smiles and cute charming angelic pink cheeked children clad in clean starched garments of precious little frills and bows.ReplyDelete
I'm glad you guys straightened me out on that. I guess myself, Fredrick Whitaker and those I came in contact with back then, were part of that mindless society that bought the big lie! Or, maybe they were reading Mad magazine and were finding out the truth, and I just wasn't aware. It's sure comforting to know that clearer heads from those that 'studied twentieth century history at a high level' can read the tea leaves so accurately and truthfully. Thanks for the enlightenment. ;-)
Tom Watson
I can't speak for Remo and the Nazi issue, Tom; I was just asking about advertising people.ReplyDelete
So if I read correctly through your very thickly applied sarcasm you're saying that because one was not present during a particular time period one cannot draw a conclusion based on studying the popular culture artifacts and historical documentation of that time period? That only the first-hand experience of someone who was there can provide an accurate, unbiased assessment of what society was like?
Leif, you can draw your own conclusions based on whatever fits your point of view. My opinion is my point of view, based on my unbiased experience and knowledge in advertising and illustration at that time. I never became jaded or disillusioned by my experience in many aspects of advertising. Charlie Allen has expressed my views, Barbara Bradley has expressed my views and many of my friends and acquaintances in the business have expressed my views. Much has been written about different eras during that time, and decades or even centuries later. It is not always accurate, and it is not always false. But, if it is controversial and alarming, it draws particular interest, no matter how inaccurate it might be.ReplyDelete
When I was a teenager in the 50s', my friends and I read Mad Magazine, not because we thought it exposed hypocrisy or had some poignant social message, but because it was bizarre and often humorous. I thought the Jack Davis illos. were super, and that is what really interested me. Obviously you see it differently, but that was my experience, and nothing has really caused me to think any differently. And, changing someone's opinion is not my goal.
I think looking at these excellent old illustrations for the great talent that they were and still are, is much more gratifying than trying to psychoanalyze and project ones social ideology into these early illustrations, 60 years later.
Tom Watson
Tom wrote:ReplyDelete
"Leif, you can draw your own conclusions based on whatever fits your point of view. My opinion is my point of view, based on my unbiased experience and knowledge in advertising and illustration at that time."
Tom; I can't argue with the specifics of your personal anecdotal experience, but I have to quibble that ANY experience (yours, mine, Remo's - anyone's) can be unbiased. Statistical, quantifiable, industry measured, scientifically proven and provable... that can fall into the realm of unbiased - but your personal experiences are naturally influenced by a multitude of life circumstances and formulated opinions - and therefore, biased. And if biased and not backed up by hard data, then not necessarily very accurate or exemplary of the broader picture.
In the case of you, Charlie and Barbara, i would suggest that you all enjoyed pretty fortunate circumstances - I don't now that its typical of the broader experience or not. I don't know if we could ever really quantify that statistically.
But, hey, you're welcome to your opinion! And thanks for always sharing it - our discussions are always thought-provoking. :^)
- Remo2:47 PM
I'm not really sure what Tom's trying to say here.ReplyDelete
I know what I'm saying,that Sundblom and a few other illustrators succesfully captured a view of post-war American society that was sunlit optimistic and wholesome. I also know that some clever advertising men of that era overdid the rosy-cheeked bit and created an impossibly utopian view of U.S society that became mythic.
I'm also saying that there were other illustrators who captured the "flip side to the American dream". Artists like James Avati,Robert Maginnis,and other interpreters of noir-ish themes that ran thru the 40s and 50s.Was that all fiction?
I would have thought the film noir genre must have reflected some facet of American culture.This was also the era of McCarthy and racial segregation,I recall.And the beat scene also, reflecting a questioning of traditional values that ultimately shaped the 60s.
Maybe some illustrators were so far removed from these realities they never even noticed them.But to seek an illustration culture where everything is Mom and Apple-Pie is a little too narrow for my liking.
Leif, I am using the word 'unbiased' in more general terms. Of course, everything we react to is sprinkled with some form of bias and reflects our genetic character, our upbringing, our education, life's experiences and our environment, etc. When I was working in the field, I had no agenda or was not prejudice towards or against the concept of advertising, those that worked in advertising, corporations that advertised, advertising strategy or the consumers of advertising. My motives were to use my talents and experience as an asset to the ad agency(s) or my client. For the most part, my experience was positive. In fact, while working with large ad agencies with major accounts, such as U.S. Sprint, Chevron Gasoline, Levis, Intel, Princess Cruise Lines, Dole and Del Monte Foods to name a few, they made an effort to be truthful, ethical and avoid legal concerns in both copy and the visuals. Like any other business, there were jerks, con men, womanizers and alcoholics, but in my experience, both in S.F. and Chicago, it was the exception and not the rule. I have also occasionally experienced the same cast of characters in a local auto repair shop, factory workers, Insurance Company employees, Realtors, lawyers and even teachers, but I don't characterize the whole profession through the bad behavior of a small percentage. Therefore, I have no bias against ad agencies or advertising in general, nor do I think they were free of specific criticism.. but that applies to all other professions, institutions, etc.ReplyDelete
It was a challenging, enjoyable and rewarding profession for me as an AD, CD and an illustrator. Of course, I had an invested interest in my profession, but I never chose nor was forced to do anything that was unethical, illegal or against my principals. You might think that was just good luck, but I believe it was the norm in most professions back then. My bias is that my dad told me, "you will get out of it, what you put into it".. and I found that to be true.
Tom Watson
- Remo3:06 AM
Ok, so should we revise our image of the American advertising industry from being 'clever and cute' to 'naive and innocent',and we'll assume the industry was populated with unassuming genial figures like Charles Coburn and Dick Van Dyke. Does that really have the (Colgate) ring of truth?ReplyDelete
Sorry Remo, I must have been sleep walking through the mid century world of advertising and illustration. Glad there are alert watchdogs like yourself who has boned up on the REAL story behind those idealistic, phony, oh so wholesome, unrealistic illustrations manufactured by those deceptive, manipulative, greedy Madison Avenue admen. Hey, thanks for straightening me out about that. My retired A.D. and illustrator friends will also appreciate your unbiased insightful EXTRAPOLATIONS.ReplyDelete
Tom Watson
- Remo5:54 PM
Fortunately Tom you don't have to rely on my erudition.Vance Packard's book The Hidden Persuaders seems to have been addressing the same or similar points:ReplyDelete
"His widely read book The Hidden Persuaders of 1957 was a strident attack on the American advertising industry, in which he drew attention to the ways behavioural psychologists, colour analysts, and others were able to persuade consumers to buy products they often neither wanted nor needed. This was followed by other texts including The Waste Makers: A Startling Revelation of Planned Obsolescence (1960), The Naked Society (1964), and The People Shapers (1977)."
But somehow all this passed you by.Fancy that, working in an industry and being so credulous as to how the industry worked.And being an AD as well?
As I alluded to before Remo, I guess reading 'tell all' books about the industry, and believing every word makes you the real expect here, and 'incredulous' me, simply toiling away with blinders on. Maybe those behavioural psychologists got to people like myself first. After all, in order to brainwash society, you have to control communications. As you suggested, it was during the Mccarthy investigation era and paranoia was prevalent. Keep in mind Remo, that books are written to sell, and the more controversial, shocking or revealing the information seems to be, the better it sells.. conveying the appearance that all information is creditable and factual. Brainwashing and mind control was a popular subject for writers, for movies and public conversation, back then.ReplyDelete
Maybe I was just too busy meeting with agency heads and copywriters, meeting with corporate execs, creating, art directing, illustrating and producing ads, while running a fully staffed art department, etc. Incidentally, I was Vice President C.D. and on the Board of Directors for one agency, and I know for a fact, that for the eight years I was there, we ran a clean agency and no behavioural psychologists. I have also done a lot reading on the giants in illustration from the past, including quotes, some that were quoted to me face to face, and nothing I heard or read, even from their own writings, indicated to me the case you seem to be bent on making.
I can only speak for myself, some friends and acquaintances in the business.. and some were high up in national agencies. If it was happening, it wasn't a topic of conversation or a strategy that was being discussed with me, or anyone I was aware of. And, I'm not saying what you read or heard, were all lies. But, you believe what you want to believe, and I will believe what I experienced and that which is backed with real proof, not just conjecture.
And, I think Sundblom painted those rosy cheeked kids and jolly Santa full of light, because that was his style, his trademark.. and it served him and the public well.
Tom Watson
- Remo7:17 AM
Apparently after WW2 they couldn't find a single supporter of the Nazi Party in Germany.Nobody knew one, nobody was related to one, nobody knew about the mistreatment of the Jews.Amazing, complete amnesia.ReplyDelete
And I suppose even Darren Stevens' venal boss at the advertising agency in Bewitched was in no way based on any popular view of Admen?
Sorry to cut and paste again but:
" In 1957, a congressional committee found that nearly all of the dietary products were practically worthless, and that the American public had been paying over $100 million a year for phony latter-day patent medicines. Additionally, in the area of nutrition and health, advertising oversimplified--and therefore falsified--important information. For example, in order to sell more cooking oil and modified fat products, the advertising Merlins declared that "cholesterol" was the main factor in heart disease. This was not a unanimous scientific feeling, yet it was so widely disseminated throughout the culture that it became a "fact." Much the same thing occurred with toothpastes. Several additives ranged from ammoniates to chlorophyll to antienzymes to fluoride--all of which provided inconclusive dental help. Rather than teaching people better nutritional habits and brushing techniques, the advertisers claimed that some new kind of additive would provide proper dental care."
Tom,you can maintain this 'head in the sand' attitude but the vast weight of objective evidence says you're wrong.I'm trying to resist using the word 'deluded' here but it's getting awful hard.
Tom; I don't for a minute doubt the sincerity of your opinion on the business and your career in it. I do however find it a bit surprising that in all those years, all those meetings, all those campaigns, among all those associates, you never encountered a single situation where everyone gave each other a sideways glance, a wink and smirk, and said, "Yeah, rrright!"ReplyDelete
I have a vivid memory of being in a brief for a new kid-targeted product (I won't say what for fear of getting sued, even all these years later). I was to create cartoon mascot artwork for this entire line of, *ahem* "food". At one point the AE, explaining what was wanted of my illustrations, said, "And beside this spot where Leif will draw [the mascot] playing each different sport, we'll print this table explaining to parents how many joules of energy their child will get from each unit of [the 'food' product] while their child plays that sport.
At which point I couldn't help but guffaw out loud at how they'd devised a clever way of spinning the fact that this 'food' product was made mostly of sugar. My outburst received death stares and stony silence from every other person in the room. I quickly realized I'd broken an unwritten rule: we do NOT admit that we are colluding to sell the public a bill of goods. Ever.
- Remo1:54 PM
I think someone was living in a parallel milk and cookies universe.Someone so naive they neither questioned what they were doing or listened to any criticism of their industry.ReplyDelete
That kind of closed thinking can lead to sinister consequences.
- Rich2:20 PM
Yes there were all kinds of rumours - and still are. Just happened to read a treatise on all the thought and psychology that's invested into the concept of a shopping mall. Optimizing it on all fronts. Lots of things to gently stimulate us into a buying mood; often quite unobtrusive, defying conscious notion. That was written in the year 2010 though. I have my doubts if it was like this in those times Tom writes about (when you still could ride an elevator in silence, without muzak;-))... IMO things and ADS of that kind were less sophisticated then, and to a certain degree, more innocent. Perhaps Leif's example already hints at today's world of advertising.ReplyDelete
The interesting discussion here reminded me of a particular rumour, spread some years ago:
It was about movies. Not just about product placement. Which is fairly obvious.
The theory ran as follows: In the reel of film you insert just one picture here and there. Invisible to the naked eye. But the subconscient would register it:
That invisible image would bring the advertising message home.
The audience would be happily inconscient, surface-consciousness-wise.... But with the subconscient enregistering the unseeable.
The unsuspecting recipient, when the occasion arises, from unknown founts - later on feeling a sudden urge:
"Yea!! Let me buy "THIS ONE"...
Too far out to be true?
Leif, sugar does give short time energy, especially in children, and so does a candy bar. To avoid exactly what you and Remo are maintaining was the norm, the agencies I worked with had attorneys that checked all claims, etc., to make sure they were accurate.. plus our client's attorneys worked closely with our copy writers and our attorneys to avoid false claims and law suits. At that time, you had to have legitimate proof to support any claim. If there was any doubt or further concern, we didn't take the chance. Most of my dealings with agencies, while freelancing, was after that process was determined, but I don't recall working on any project that was obviously or subtly shady or dishonest.. to my knowledge. In fact on a few occasions, I witnessed serious debates, discussions and even arguments on the accuracy or legitimacy of a claim or the appearance of a product or service. But, the agency owner or president would have the final say, and didn't want to take the risk, if it might be subject to a legal challenge.ReplyDelete
While in art school, one of the courses I had to take was a Psychology class that covered how colors, shapes,logo designs, headlines, body copy and number of other advertising elements, might be responded to by different age groups, genders and different social classes. This was part of marketing strategy to target the right groups in the right way, in order to produce a more effective ad or illustration. There was nothing devious, sneaky or unethical about the strategy. In fact, the course was fascinating and quite helpful, eliminating approaches that would not be as effective. I used what I learned in that course throughout my career.
Tom Watson
Leif, I don't doubt your experience, but I would venture to guess that the vast majority of your interaction with the advertising world was not devious, misleading or dishonest.ReplyDelete
Remo, you are welcome to your opinion of me or anyone that has a similar opinion as mine. I am comfortable in my own skin, and with the accuracy of my own experiences. I'm not trying to push an agenda here, but you lead me to believe that you are. I just thought you might would be interested in my in my point of view of that time. Reading books that trash an industry, etc., can be interesting and entertaining, but it may be just as deceptive and dishonest as you seem to be claiming the general advertising business was.
Tom Watson
- Remo7:46 PM
Tom,I have no agenda against the advertising industry or you.I think I uesd the terms 'clever and cute' about the former and 'credulous' about you.ReplyDelete
I think its rather charming that someone can have such an innocent attitude about their business.
What i find odd is that even now you dont seem to recognise the truth of that business. Advertising tunes in to peoples' fears and insecurities and provides them wih a product to allay those fears.Whether or not its a new car, designer fragrances, healthy foods,life insurance whatever, the strategy is always the same.To do this Admen need to know how to push the buttons to motivate people to buy. Staying just this side of the truth is part of that skill.
The fact that you seem to have no grasp of this skill -nor even recognise it as existing- is truly strange.
I'm also not sure why you needed to post your last message 6 times- unless its some kind of fancy old school advertising trick.
This has become quite fascinating, Remo. First you said you didn't understand what I was saying, then you trivialized my experience in advertising and illustration by implying I probably wasn't being truthful, then it escalated to accusing me of being in denial, then delusional, and even compared me to the Germans at the end of WW 2, and now you are questioning my mental state!ReplyDelete
Pouring out all of this negative energy over my personal recollections, is quite bizarre. Have you become the self appointed TI thought police, Remo?
Hey, you obviously don't agree with my recollections, or maybe you don't even believe me.. SO WHAT! GET OVER IT!
Tom Watson
Sorry Leif.. I kept getting an error message that my comment exceeded the maximum size to be posted. After I retried a number of times, not knowing they actually did go through, it finally accepted it in two parts.(?) First time that has happened here.ReplyDelete
- Remo10:39 PM
The thing is Tom we're all here because we love mid century illustration, be it editorial or advertising. It just so happens that Lief and I have advanced views that the men in Madison Ave were very slick in their ability to manipulate people's buying decisions.You seem to disagree, despite the weight of objective evidence and clearly you aren't going to change your mind.ReplyDelete
But to sarcasticly dismiss other viewpoints and then whinge when others bite back seems ill-judged.
Remo, apparently I gave you too much credit in this discussion. Try and focus.. the advertising methods I practiced and those I came into contact with, were standard procedures in promoting and displaying the assets and other positive features of the client's product or service. Like a portrait photo or painting, we displayed it in the most impressive way esthetically, The copy was written to inform, support and inspire the reader to purchase the product or service.. that's called "advertising". By viewing the ad, the public was informed and educated about the product or service, and I can easily support that with fact. I am and was aware that some agencies were caught making claims their client couldn't support, either visually or in writing. To my knowledge that didn't happen to any accounts I worked on. I worked with large, medium and small agencies and clients, and I never had meetings with behavioral psychologists or colour analysts.ReplyDelete
I have enough solid evidence that tells me advertising was like most other businesses, some used borderline or unethical practices, but most did not.
That is my opinion based on my experience, those I worked with and other information at the time. Therefore I disagree with your characterization of both advertising agencies in general, and your assessment of my recollections. This is not a contest, Remo. I trust you see the wisdom in just agreeing to disagree.
Tom Watson
- Rich12:09 PM
Just felt like adding an example. Showing a remarkable difference between mid century advertising and 2010. I find it striking enough:ReplyDelete
Nowadays we habe become accustomed, for instance, to airlines in ad liveries. Flying advertisement columns, so to say. Airlines must be charging quite a hefty price for it.
Years ago this also was practised in private. Someone consenting to have his car painted over as a rolling ad would receive an appropriate compensation.
And nowadays?
Well, that's what I'd call successful marketing:
People buying branded clothes, for instance. Crazy after them - displaying the brand name in public on any pant or shoe or shirt.
Now, do they get a compensation for the advertising vehicle?
No! They won't!
It's the very crazy contrary:
They even pay a price premium...he he he...
- Remo10:39 PM
The problem is Tom you dont give any credit.ReplyDelete
Your simplistic explanation of advertising technique is based on the idea that you are 'helping' the consumer to make a choice of brands -no bias, no persuasion:
" The copy was written to inform, support and inspire the reader to purchase the product or service.. that's called "advertising"."
As advertising is paid for by the owners of a specific brand that you represent it stands to reason your most important job is to PERSUADE the public to buy your clients brand, regardless of whether it is actually the best or most appropriate product.Call it what it is, it's a form of manipulation.
That is what's called "advertising".
And I think the fact that you deliberately avoided using words like persuasion and manipulation in favor of terms like 'inform' 'support' and 'inspire' shows you are using exacltly those techniques to make your argument now.
" By viewing the ad, the public was informed and educated about the product or service"
Or rather 'seduced' by the promise of a better life,greater sexual attractiveness or being 'one up' on the neighbors.
That's the reality of advertising.Same then same now.Just accept it for that and stop pretending it was all about doing the public a 'service'.That is either disingenuous or incredibly naive.
Remo, why have you become so emotionally invested in my choice of words to describe my experience in advertising?ReplyDelete
Tom Watson
- Remo5:06 PM
No emotional investment at all.I just think your choice of words is particularly revealing.ReplyDelete
As is your evasiveness.
this blog is truly awes.ReplyDelete
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