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I like to take a hot sandwich to my kids at school on special occasions. I decided to go to Burger King because of their $1 double cheeseburger special. When I arrived at the restaurant, there were no cars in line at the drive thru. I placed my order at the drive thru order box at 10:49am. All I ordered was 3 sandwiches. My order was taken promptly. I was told my total ($3.00) and asked to pull around to the second window. I had exact change and gave it to the employee. Immediately, I was told that my hamburgers were coming through the broiler and that it would be a few minutes. I was ok with that. I was ahead of schedule and would rather have fresh food anyway. But then I was asked to pull ahead to wait and they would bring it out to me. This is the point that made me annoyed. There were no cars behind me, so I certainly wasn't holding someone up from getting their food. So I politely asked, "What is the point of me pulling up? There was no one behind me." Her response was, "We are on a timer." as politely as possible asked her what the timer was timing. Knowing full well that it was timing how fast they serviced the customers. Her response was that "it averaged out the customer times." Honestly, as a customer, I dont care what their drive-thru car time average is. All I care about is MY time. I started to tell her that I was concerned how the urgency of my order getting to me would be diminished as soon as they werent being "timed", when she said that she didn't want to argue with me and shut the window. I received my sandwiches by 11:56am (7 minutes later). I considered asking for a refund, because, I must say, the thought of food tampering crossed my mind. I checked the sandwiches after I got them and they seemed to be fine. I would like a representative of Burger King to contact me and explain to me the proper procedure when dealing with drive-thru customers. Is it acceptable to ask them to pull forward without their order complete just to stop the timer? Is there so much pressure on employees and managers to acheive a good "average car time" that they sacrifice customer service to artificially lower these times? Is this the managers idea? Is this endorsed by the managers manager or area manager? Who should I contact if this were to happen again?
I don't mind pulling ahead at all. However, what happened recentlypissed me off. I placed my order and pulled up to pay (this was at a&wbtw). I was told my chicken was going to be "a few minutes". I saidsure and pulled ahead. Well, I waited for like five minutes, meanwhilecars are lining up behind me(obviously asked to pull ahead and wait aswell). The person behind me even had the balls to honk their horn atme like they thought I was just waiting there for fun. So finally thelady comes out(the manager nonetheless) with my order and says to me"Your making quite the line up. Here's your order". I'd like to knowhow I was creating the line up by waiting for my order. What the helldid they expect me to do? Pull ahead onto the street and block trafficor pull into the parking lot and wait for them to find me? I justdrove away. My blood was already boiling from having to wait that longnot to mention being honked at.
Corporate is behind the drive-thru timer to make sure the employeesare getting your product out fast. But, you coming to the drive-thruright after breakfast when they are changing over for lunch may take acouple extra minutes.Where as these employees are threatened write upsand even termination if time is not met. Burger King still keepsadding more and more to their menu, so it takes the customer longer tofigure out what they want. By then their time has been used. How wouldyou like to work a job where some one can't make up their mind, andthen gets to pay window and changes their mind all together? Whilethese employees are trying to do their job as they are told,theyactually do come across people like you daily that don't have an ounceof human compassion for their fellow man doing an honest job. Youshould have waited longer than 7 minutes. It's called karmababy!!!!!If you weren't in a hurry what's your problem? P.S. For thoseof you in a hurry, make your mind up quick,( there is always a presell board first) then a menu board where you actually place yourorder, don't add on to your order when you come up to pay, get off thephone, have your money ready, and give people a break once in awhile,it's not always about you.
I have experienced this on several occasions. I simply refuse to pullforward and wait, when there is no one in line behind me. That isridiculous. If they are doing their jobs correctly, then my food willbe made and delivered through the window on-time. Problem solved. Ifit there was only one single car behind me, then yes, I would considerpulling forward. But not when I'm the only one there.
I've had similar complaints about this practice of having customerspull forward at the drive-thru and wait. I used to be compliant insuch situations, especially at places where they had special orderparking specifically constructed so there was a logical and safe placeto actually park while waiting for one's order. A lot of places don'thave that, leaving people to sit there idling in the middle of theparking lot or some other inconvenient spot. If the place wasn'tdesigned or built with a post-drive-thru waiting area, then theyshouldn't ask customers to pull forward. I've been fouled up tryingto get in to the parking lot to dine in while they've had peoplewaiting in the parking lot for their drive-thru orders. The last time I agreed to pull forward at the drive-thru, I waited andwaited for what seemed an inordinate length of time. I finallyparked, got out and walked inside, only to find my order had alreadybeen sitting there bagged up on the counter. Apparently, they"forgot" to bring it out to me. I've also found that they've been intentionally vague about how longit would take. I was at a Burger King one time, ordering a doublecheeseburger, and the employee said it would be "just a couple ofminutes" and asked if I would pull forward. I politely refused. "Butit'll just be a couple of minutes," she said. I said, "Well, if it'sall the same to you, I'd rather just wait right here, since I've hadtrouble when I've pulled forward in the past. Then the manager cameover and got a bit huffy with me, and he also insisted that it wouldbe a "couple of minutes." After he realized that I was standing firmand wouldn't move, he got even more angry and said, "Well, okay, then,it'll be five minutes before it's ready." I happen to think that there's a difference between five minutes and"a couple of minutes." Instead, he gave me my order within a minuteand said that he gave me Whopper meat in a rather snotty tone. Thatwhole experience has made me avoid Burger King ever since.
Sadly you nailed it. However McDonalds and all others are in the sameboat. Truly speed of service and product hold times are the #1 abd #2concerns. Normally however long wait times are bumped by the system,so it does not affect times. It records those as slowpokes. Theproblem of course is that if they let you sit at the window there isthe chance that soneone else pulls up within the 7 minute time framecausing thier average to jump out of site. I don't know if the timesare sent to corporate but it truly is a contest between stores to getthe best times. 7 minutes, is a long time. Cook time for 6 patties would be 3:40 andthey can make up to 4 sandwiches at a time by the rules. Adding incompletion times to 30 seconds means you should have got it in 4minutes maybe 4:30 if inside customers were a factor. Steakhouse cooktime is 5:30 giving a 6 minute average. These figures do not reflectorder time, typically would add another 30 seconds depending on yourknowing what you want and any need to repeat the order when noisy carsetc are figured into the process. Microwaving each sandwich addsanother 20 seconds still putting you out of range. I would have goneas far as 5 minutes being reasonable, given that there could be asmall delay in getting the order started.
I don't particularly mind being asked to "pull forward" per se - thepoor unsuspecting employee is just doing what they have beeninstructed to do by corporate policy. The deeper, corporate deception is what I object to - they arecounting on my willingness to be agreeable, and they have noconscience about instructing an unsuspecting employee to ask me toparticipate in their corporate game-playing. The "drive thru" timesare carefully monitored and calculated for all stores in the chain -through the wonders of computers - and the results are thenmanipulated and reported within the corporate structure. This is the"gotcha" game that "too big to fail" companies now play on all of uspoor dumb paying customers - and they provide no recourse against it.An "excellent" drive-thru time, combined with other compiled (andprobably also manipulated) data, makes for an overall "excellentcustomer service" standard - one of the many criteria that is examinedclosely by banks when they are approached to lend more money to thesegiant companies. They just conveniently fail to mention that they haveestablished corporate policy which circumvents the real truth of their"wait times". A particularly good example of this egregious behavior is exemplifiedwhen one has a "bad" customer service experience with a big company. In a follow-up encounter with the company, while still attempting toget resolution to the original problem, the customer then receivesadequate service (which should have been provided the first time). Immediately upon conclusion of the second customer service encounter,the customer is then asked to "rate" the company's customer service -but the "rating" is limited to the current, or adequate, encounteronly. The company does not allow the customer to rate the companyoverall based on the total encounters required to resolve thecustomer's issue. Just another little trick of the "customer service"trade in the 21st century - one that is particularly well-played thesedays by Bank of America, among others. I decline to participate inany survey that doesn't allow me to address the complete story of mycustomer service problem with them. If enough of us decide we no longer want to be manipulated behind thescenes by these slick little ploys, they will eventually stop doingthis in the name of "customer service". Generally, though, the bigcorporations assume that we are all too busy, too distracted, or tooignorant of how they manipulate data to their advantage to care oneway or the other. And as long as they have that deceitful andcondescending attitude toward "customer service", it will remain lowon the priority list of any company. So when I'm asked to "drive forward" and I'm the only person in line,I just smile sweetly and say "Thanks, but I'm just fine right here."
This happened to me at Hardees this morning. I refused to pullforward - for one I am not going to help them circumvent the timer systemthat cost a lot of money to make sure the orders are put out timely. Another reason for me is the common mistakes. Say you pull forwardand they bring your order. What happens if they have missed something and they just handed you the food and took off back into the store???? Now you have to go inside the store or get back in the long drive through line. Possibly you might not be dressed to go inside, this might be why you went through the drive through... It's all wrong and anybody here who defends the the "pull forward system" must work for a store that has this.
It's like getting a star by your name for knowing your ABCs. Does thewinner also get to wear a little paper crown for a week?
I never actually knew all this stuff about drive thru times, but I cansay that I remember being asked to pull forward many times growing upand recently at a Hardee's. I didn't ask why, but I was the only onethere, and it didn't really bother me, I thought it was weird, butwhatever. I was happy to have my breakfast!
I worked at BK, and I know up here after the 1 minute mark, the thingmakes loud, painful beeps in your ear every second. I once had a ladyrefuse to move the car for six minutes while her chicken cooked!That's 360 beeps! As well, even thoug it doesnt seem more than trifial than you, a lotof places DO have a lot of pressure on their employees to keep thosetimes down, sadly. The employee probably just doesnt want to get intotrouble. Hopefully Corp will see this and do something about those wait times. I know keeping a wait time down is good but shouldnt be punishing ifthe situation is stupid.
I work at McDonalds. Above our drive thru window we have a sign thatstates "If a car is at the window more than 30 seconds and you don'thave the food, put the order in hold and pull them up!" The employee isn't gonna diddle around inside just because they pulledyou forward, the employee wants the customer out of there as fast asthey can get you out. I could see why the employee got a little irkedwhen you questioned why you had to pull up, plus you were getting yourfood fresh. It takes 10 extra seconds for them to run your food out to you, it'snot like they asked you to get out of your car and come inside towait.
I worked at Arby's in high school and once an order had been paid for,it could be cleared from the screen at any time. We technically werenot supposed to clear it until the order had been handed out, butpeople did it all the time. Most of the time, when we had to asksomebody to pull forward, we would upgrade their fry to a large orthrow in a free shake, etc. for their trouble. I think it was kindasilly of them to make you pull forward just to cut down on theirtimes, but I don't think it's that big a deal. On a totally separate note, I'm surprised the school would allow youto bring fast food for your kid for lunch. Many schools won't evenlet parents pack a cookie or a candy bar as a treat in their lunches,but fast food is okay? I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting togive your kids BK once in a while, just trying to understand......
I had the same thing happen to me only better. The cashier asked me to pull up 10 feet then BACK UP to the windowagain to "reset the timer" It was in Manchester, NH.
Out of curiosity, does anyone here know how BK actually handles drivethrough speed? It seems odd for the window person to say somethingabout the "speed" of the transaction being timed. Most places I knowjust tap a button when they are "done" with a transaction to clear outthe que screen. It was annoying at McDonalds, because you would be trying to bag anorder (I was a newbie), and the order would get cleared off thescreen, you could only lay out so many paper receipts at a time andyou would have NO idea what was actually supposed to go in the bag orwhat they wanted for their drink. My guess is that this is what contributes to the high number ofmistakes at the drive through window. This was probably a placeholder answer in lieu of a longerexplanation, not a very good one, though, since I doubt asking you topull forward actually affected their "speed." I don't hit drivethroughs often, but at Culvers I usually end up pulling ahead (Alongwith three or four cars) because there are a lot of people behind meand the food is all made fresh. I'd personally rather have it thatway. To be fair, most places probably skew the delivery time. I doubt mostplaces are going to do anything about it though.
I think the reason the CSR asked the OP to move ahead was because shewanted to allow others through the drive thru, not because of thetimer. Instead of telling the OP indelicately "I'd like you out ofthe way," she brought up the timer. BK should take a stance on whether asking customers to pull ahead isappropriate, timer or no timer. Personally I don't see a problem withit, but others here feel differently. To me, it is no different than asking me to move aside inside thestore. At least in the store, others usually have the option ofchoosing a different register. Outside, one car in the way holdseveryone up. While the concept is pull in, get your food and leave,that isn't always possible. I have never liked the fact that the emphasis seems to be on drivethru customers when I am standing inside. We should all have the samepriority, no more, no less. This could be solved by just shuttingdown the drive thru, which would result in more people gettingexercise and being healthier.
took my wife and kids to Wendy's. In the confusion of ordering mealsfor kids - one vegetarian - we neglected to get one small drink. While eating, we realized the mistake and I went back to the counter. I told the cashier that I didn't get one of the kid's meal drinks, soshe got me one. Back at the table I remembered that the meal mydaughter got was not technically a "kid's meal", so I owed for a smalldrink. I went back again to pay, but the manager wouldn't accept mymoney. He flat-out wouldn't. But I am not going to write a letter tocorporate reporting him because he bent the rules. I am morallycorrupt, and would undoubtedly burn in Hell (if I wasn't an atheist). I would actually like to write a letter of praise, but don't want torat this guy out. Terrence, I owe you a beer.
Haha! This is one of my pet peeves! Glad to know I'm not the onlyone out there! I used to work a late shift, and would stop at BK onthe way home for dinner at about midnight once or twice a week. Theywere not ever busy-most times I was the only person there. Theyalways, always, always asked me to pull forward. I can totally seeand understand if there was another car behind me. Even if one comesup while I am waiting-they could then at that point after they tookthe other persons order ask me to pull forward. But it was literally"here is your change please pull forward and we will bring the orderto you".
The whole discussion on this letter is around what the OP and othermembers here ASSUME to be a violation of a rule. Consider this; Maybe there is a policy where employees can pull a carforward if there is a legitimate delay, for example food is cookingfresh. Maybe BK's upper management has decided that since thesesituations are not typical and do not represent a "normal"transaction, the car can pull forward and not kill the service time.There still is a "check" on this system, because if too many peopleare pulled up and have to wait, complaints will be coming in to thestore and management about the speed of service.
this letter is still #1! When I worked at Target, there were certain "processing" levels wewere supposed to adhere to - Scanning and completing the transactionsin a specified amount of time to achieve "green" status. Eachtransaction was timed and a percentage calculated. Good cashierswould consistently process above 90% to maintain "green." Often times, there were things out of our control - price checks,customers hunting for change or credit cards, manual verification ofcredit cards or processing of paper checks - that took longer. Should*I* as a cashier have to take a hit on my speed score because ofsomething completely out of my control? Should my personal numbers(that were used in reviewing and determining raises and promotions)look bad because of the actions of a customer or a co-worker? The answer is no. Which is why we had a little "Suspend Transaction"button on the register to stop the clock if a situation like thishappened. They didn't circumvent the system, there was a legitimate delay ingetting the food to you and that is why they stopped the clock. Itwasn't that the person at the drive-thru was slow or not beingattentive enough. It was something that was fully beyond theircontrol. You are completely twisting around the point of the clocksand trying to pervert the situation to being some evil plan againsthumanity that it's not. I'm wondering if you've even ever worked in fast food establishment tounderstand WHY they put those things in place to begin with! Perhapsif you had, you might not have written a letter like this. It's an insult to those employees that after they ensured that you gotfresh food in a reasonable amount of time, you still sought to punishthem.
Here is my thought for what it is worth....I agree as a customer thatit is an inconvenience although maybe not a big one. The larger issue is that the store is cheating the system. They areessentially falsifying corporate data and if they aren't honest withlittle things then they aren't with big things either. If I owned astore where that happened I would fire a store manager for allowingthis practice - In fact I've done just that in similar situations.
I can't believe this much thought has been put into this. When theytell me to pull up, I just pull up. No big deal. Which reminds me, when I visited Seattle a few years back, we wentthrough a McDonald's drive thru. Before we got to the window, our bagwas there. We still giggle about it to this day, that was some fastservice! OP, unclench.
I don't blame you for being upset, it seems like they havecircumvented a safeguard to ensure a certain level of productivity inregards to drive-thru times. One rule though, I never argue with people who handle my food tillafter it's in my possession and even then, only if I never plan oneating at that establishment again. Good luck, I liked your letter it was informative.
Just out of curiosity, does the OP say anywhere if this BK has aspecific time that they start serving lunch? I did a quick search andfound that it varies from Franchise to Franchise - some serve burgersall day, some start at 10:30 and some at 11:00, etc. Wouldn't it be a hoot if they didn't serve lunch until 11 and weretrying to be helpful by making burgers at 10:49?
i worked at a fast food restaurant for several years. i can tell youthat a person waiting on their food IS top priority, and the sense ofurgency doesn't go away when you ask them to pull forward. i didn't always ask people to pull forward if i didn't expect anothercar to come along, but i don't see anything odd about it. one time i didn't ask a lady to pull forward, and when i opened thewindow to give her the food, she wanted to know why i wiped her foodcontainer with a NASTY rag. i wiped gravy off the side of a styrofoamgravy bowl with a rag. i don't see what the problem was (then or now)unless she was planning on licking the container. so, maybe they havepeople pull up to avoid unnecessary comments like that. people whohave nothing to do can create all kinds of scenarios in their head(like food tampering). by the way, we weren't on any kind of timer. i asked them to pull upjust so (like someone else said) i didn't have to ask them later whensomeone did pull up. i'm asked to pull up all the time and i don't think a thing about it.
"Is it acceptable to ask them to pull forward without their ordercomplete just to stop the timer?" Well, yeah. That's the "fast" part of fast food and a standard thingin the industry. Even It doesn't bother me any. To me, it's more important that my food iscooked properly and my order is prepared correctly. Getting in and outof the drive-thru in two minutes means nothing if my hamburger is wayundercooked and I get sick because of it.
I worked at Burger King for 2 years as a teen, and I did this topeople ALL the time. It was never a problem. Most people I servedunderstood our policy whether or not there was a person behind them. Imean, what's the big deal? It will still be handed to you when theemployee walks outside to your car, you don't have to walk anywhere toget it. Also, the employee could actually get in trouble and written up iftheir drive thru time wasn't good. When I worked there, the averagetime HAD to be 2 minutes and 30 seconds or we would be reprimanded. As a naive teen, also it being my first job, I accepted this and triedmy best and had no problem pulling people up. It's a very common practice, and you're getting your food fresh. Thereis no reason to complain.
I agree. If there was no one behind you there was no reason to pullforward. If the timer is recording wait times, your full time spentwaiting should be recorded.
though, there's also the possibility that there is no response.. or that the response is professional but vague such as "beinginvestigated" or "has been resolved" without actually telling thecustomer what the result is.
Why should they get their time ruined by a guy who refuses to pullforward? It's efficiency. How would you like it if you were behindsomeone such as yourself who sat there arguing.
First of all I waited until 10:56 not 11:56... that was a typo,sorry. Second of all, there were 0 cars behind me from start to finish. Third of all, and most importantly, The second I pull up and get offthe clock, is the exact same second that the staff doesn't care howfast my order is prepared. They already earned their 30 sec.drive-thru time. Why would they care if some customer has to wait? Also, I never started an argument. I simply was inquiring about theirprocedure. The employee was the one who determined it was anargument.
I don't understand why you didn't move up like they asked. They wouldhave brought the food right out to you, so it would only add a fewseconds to the wait. Once, I ordered a fish sandwich (among other things) from Wendy's.Those can take some time to prepare. I was the only one in line andthey asked me to pull ahead and wait. I only waited about ten minutes and nearly six cars went through atthat time. So, my point is...there wasn't anyone behind you *then* butwhat if someone comes along a little later? I would have just done what I was asked to do. No need to argue. Theyare the experts, they know what they are doing.
In case another car does come along, it's easier to ask you NOW Topull forward (they seemed to know that your order would take a while)than to open the window and ask you to move after you've alreadywaited a couple of minutes.
If you pulled ahead and waited for your food to be brought to you whenit was prepared, you wouldn't need to be concerned about foodtampering or how average car time is calculated. Problem avoided.
I guess I don't understand why you think you got worse customerservice by being asked to pull forward as opposed to sitting at thewindow? I worked BK way back in High School, and yes we did getdinged for long drive-through wait times. Asking someone to pullfoward if there was something that was going to take a while longer,like waiting for a fresh burger, was common practice. 7 minutes fromorder to food doesn't seem excessive at all, so I'm not sure I canagree that your service was at all compromised.
At first I thought this was a valid complaint, but after reading theresponses, I too have to wonder why this was such a big deal. All youhad to do was move your car and have the order brought to you. Idon't understand how doing that would affect the food or service. Unless your order was not completed satisfactorily, I really don'twhat you are complaining about.
you only had to wait 7 minutes for the food (assuming the 11:56 was atypo) so the only issue is that they asked you to pull forward? I don't see how customer service was degraded. now if you had to wait 15-30 minutes with no line behind you... theni'd see it as a CS issue, but I'm just not seeing it here. And... i'm also wondering why the sudden suspicion of food tampering?
You pulled up at 10:49 am and got your burgers at 11:56??? Hopefullyyou turned the car off Good Day
This is standard procedure at most drive thrus. If an order is goingto take a long amount of time, you pull forward and they bring it outto you. It is not necessarily them trying to artificially lower times,it is an efficiency issue if another car or multiple other cars hadcome. The timer would be completely shot if multiple cars who could beserved immediately had came and had to wait for 7 minutes because youtried to start an argument with the lady at the window because youdidn't want to pull up.
So they asked you to pull up? whats the big deal? its more of a hasselfor them since they now have to run around the counter and outside tohand it to you. Why do people feel the need to argue with the workers. Would it bringyou a bit of joy to get someone fired over this?


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"Beyond Awesome Attitude is Allowed"
October 10, 2009
Lots of inspirational moments and would like to share them with you all!
For me, I always found that whenever I have a good attitude in general, it really enables me to move and achieve with such ease. There is a huge differences between a good attitude and a bad attitude. I feel stuck whenever I have a bad attitude about something. So I realized that having a good attitude helps me find answers that I'm looking for, able to solve things, and reverse my bad attitude. Such as looking at the glass as half empty toward to looking at the glass as half full.
Going raw for me has been all about having a good attitude and even more so to get excited about new flavors that each recipes hold, the physical changes that I've seen within myself, and I feel like as each day goes by that I am more of a kinder soul than I was the day before.
The Raw Food Lifestyle is here to stay.
Today is the appreciation for the moment that I have decided to live, love, and laugh while eating raw food for life.
Love to you all!

subset: commoncrawl


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Steven Curtis Chapman performs "Christmas Time Again" from his new Christmas album, JOY, now available in stores and on iTunes: http://itun.es/i6Dn8qW.
"Christmas Card" is available on Steven Curtis Chapman's new Christmas album, JOY, now available in stores and on iTunes: http://itun.es/i6Dn8qW
SCC shares about new song "Christmas Card," from his new Christmas album, Joy, now available in stores and on iTunes: http://itun.es/i6Dn8qW.
Steven Curtis Chapman performs "Christmas Card" from his new Christmas album, JOY. For a limited time, you can download JOY for only $7.99 on iTunes!
SCC shares about his new Christmas single, "Christmas Time Again," from his new Christmas album, Joy, available October NOW!
Steven Receives First Ever Rich Mullins Impact Award
This past week the trade group, Christian Music Broadcasters (CMB) honored Steven Curtis Chapman with the first-ever Rich Mullins Artist Impact Award. The award is presented each year to an artist or group to recognize their long-time contributions to the music and ministry of Christian Radio. CMB members nominate artists to be considered for the award.
The Christian Alliance for Orphans presented The Defender of the Fatherless Award to Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife Mary Beth, the founders of Show Hope, an orphan care and adoption non-profit ministry. The Chapmans received the award earlier this month before 2,000 advocates of orphan care and adoption at the Christian Alliance for Orphans' Summit VIII, held at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California.
You submitted questions and Steven answered them! –
Watch SCC vs. The Box from Rhapsody
Steven has released a greatest hits collection entitled, #1's Volume 1. The project features the original recordings of some of his biggest hits remastered for the highest quality digital sound. As the title suggests, the tracks are songs that made it to the top of the radio chart, plus an additional bonus track of the emotional and exceptional "Cinderella."
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What's the Big Lesson from Kansas City Chiefs Shooting Tragedy?
Some say it shows the need for more gun control, others say it highlights the dirty little secret of head injuries in the NFL, and yet others say it puts a spotlight on domestic violence. What do you think the biggest lesson is?
Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher shot and killed the mother of his child and later himself this past Saturday morning. Proponents of gun control immediately cited it as another reason for stricter gun control. Strong Second Amendment supporters were quick to point out some of the other issues involved. This story in The Huffington Post talks about head injuries in the NFL and this one in The Washington Times talks about previous reports of domestic violence.
Maybe it'll turn out that concussions, or traumatic brain injury, played some role in sparking those unconscionable actions. And maybe that will make a parent prioritize player safety should he or she allow a child to play football.
Maybe the image of a hulking 25-year-old linebacker, a man considered a leader by his teammates, holding a gun to his head outside Kansas City's practice facility will incite a conversation about gun control among a new demographic.
Or maybe a video will go viral. A video in which Brady Quinn, the embattled Chiefs quarterback, gives a remarkable postgame address that reminds us to think about our own relationships.
This was obviously a tragedy, but what do you think is the biggest lesson that we should take away from it? Is it a need for more gun control, a wake up call for the NFL to take a look at traumatic brain injuries, or should it prompt more be done to address domestic violence as a national problem?
Racer X
9:01 am on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
We need to look harder at individual responsibility and individual accountability. We have become a nation of "helpless victims". Guns are not the problem, society is.
There are bad guys and there are good guys. Taking guns away from the good guys is obviously not what we want to do.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
7:55 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
It's a GOVERNMENT mandate if ever there was one.
We NEED to tax ALL the sports players, they clearly have TOO much spending money buying toys they have no knowledge of how to use...
Its the village thing to do...
10:13 am on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
At the root of this issue is domestic violence. He could have killed her with his bare hands if he had not had a gun.
11:29 am on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Researchers at Boston University have completed several studies on brains of football players, here is an article on one of their latest findings...
I'm not saying the NFL is to blame or that the game of football itself creates killers, but to me it is obvious that the physical game of football where multiple concussions occur, can and does cause degenerative brain disorders which then lead to memory loss, depression, and dementia. Mixed with the right person and you have suicidal tendencies and possibly violence.
In this particular case with Belcher, I'm not sure if he has a history of concussions or not. The Chiefs actually provided counseling to this couple in the past. This is more of a domestic violence issue to me. If your spouse has physically hit or harmed you in any way, I can guarantee it will happen again and will only get worse the next time. Get help now.
As for guns, would it have been a little harder for Belcher to kill his girlfriend and himself if he did not have a gun? Yes. Could he have killed her and himself without a gun if he chose to? Yes. Would it be easier to get fat if I ate at McDonalds every day? Yes. Could I still get fat if I didn't go to McDonalds at all? Yes. Getting rid of the gun or McDonalds does not change what is in one's heart. That is where the problem lies.
David Brown
12:00 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Mr. B, I agree with Bob Costas. He was factually correct in what he said.
Mr. B
1:01 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
He wasn't necessarily factually correct. He said, "If Jovan Belcher didn't possess a gun, he and Kasandra Perkins would both be alive today."
No one knows that Belcher wouldn't use some other method to commit murder/suicide. Nevertheless, Costas should stick to sports and leave political commentary to the politicos. I think he should be terminated.
John B
1:43 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Bob Costas is a twit. The young lady was shot multiple times. Not once....to me that speaks of uncontrollable rage. If he hadn't had a gun he would have carved her up or just beat her to death. I'm so tired of hearing guns are the problem, or now concussions are the problem. BS folks...how about some individual accountability. I guess it's just easier to blame something or someone else. How about he was just a piece of crap thug that had no real value for life. More coming out on this story that will show a pattern of violence. Don't need a crystal ball for this.
Scott Stone
4:07 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
David Brown.... Go tell Nicole Simpson that she would be alive today if OJ didn't have a gun.... He couldn't have been more factually incorrect.
Michelle Couch
12:48 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
This is a tragedy that is multifaceted. Individuals and organizations will pick which ever angle best suits their position and use it to further their argument in favor of. I'll opt out of the blame game and pray for the families, as well as their child who will now grow up without a mother and father.
As far as the NFL and head injuries playing into the equation > lets count the number of murder-suicides across the nation that don't make the national news because they are not NFL related.....
What is the ratio?
NFL murder-suicides to Regular society murder-suicides?
tank rollins
1:48 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
the lesson to be learned is....THERE IS NO LESSON....the majority of people in this world never learn....
David Brown
3:08 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
The pro-gun logic is very predictable. Last night, my wife and I were listening to Bob Costas's comment on the news. I predicted to my wife that someone would rebut Costas's comment by saying that Jovan Belcher could have killed Kasandra Perkins with a knife, instead of a gun. I was right on with my prediction.:)
John B
5:20 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
I predicted that someone would come on here and blame guns instead of the idiot that pulled the trigger....I was right on too!
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
7:58 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
"rebut Costas's comment by saying that Jovan Belcher could have killed Kasandra Perkins with a knife"
Well David I guess your realization proves the point that the TRUTH really is universal and can cross political boundaries ...
Jeffrey Allen
3:12 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. That is a very predictable...and logical...rebuttal. He could have strangled her to death...your "predictable"answer would be...to ban gloves?
Here's a thought...what if SHE had a gun to defend herself with? This story could be very different...
David Brown
3:37 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
I knew you would come up with that retort too.:) I've heard it all before. God bless you, my brother.
North Georgia Weather
3:59 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
David... you'll never learn will you?
Tammy Osier
7:58 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
He would have done it anyway. You have to understand the mindset of a suicidal criminal. They WILL find a way. They are driven, almost insane in a way. People who make the anti gun excuse don't understand the psychology of it. You can't leave that out. Personally, I'd rather be shot than to be beat to death with a baseball bat. More humane.
8:03 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Football is a violent sport. Everything from the violent contact required to play the game(?) to the vocabulary used to describe the action involved. (Practice violence;
Act with violence)
Tammy Osier
8:07 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
The vartiable that is never used in this is that the anti gun people cannot or will not use any statistics involving a murder by any other means. It would blow holes in thier theory, but proves ours. That's why they won't reply when you bring it up. OJ grabbed a knife and slit her throat in a rage. This guy was probably in the same state of mind (and ironically, a football player- what a coinkidink).
I challenge David- could he have done that? If you say no, then it's quite obvious that your belief is not based on fact or statistic but the desire to be right about something even if others can prove otherwise. Too bad, because you can't have a conversation if you fail to see the other sides point of view. I can (am willing) to see yours. IF we had no guns, the world would be safer. I agree. BUT we do and therein lies the problem. As long as people get into fits of rage, and can kill someone based on that person being bigger than the victim, it might have helped her to be able to stop him by any means. Instead, she's dead. A gun might have saved her - and not having one would have killed her too without having something to defend herself with.
Amy Jellicoe
8:37 pm on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
Guns for law enforcement and military only. Everybody else, sit your butts down, take some jiu jitsu, and stop the madness. Too many innocent lives taken away from the earth. Trayvon Martin would still be alive today, had George Zimmerman not had a gun. George Zimmerman would have killed another innocent person, had fate not put Trayvon Martin in his path.
Racer X
7:53 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
OK Amy- I am calling foul. George Zimmerman is a nice guy who was watching out for his neighbors, what he got was a disrespectful thug beating him up. Don't believe the media hype, Trayvon would be alive today if his parents had taught him how to be respectful.
When Zimmerman approached him, all Trayvon had to say is "Hey man, I don't want any trouble. I am staying with my Dad's girlfriend a couple doors up. If you walk over there with me you will see."
Instead, Trayvon came out of his Ninja-bag and attacked Zimmerman. It's pretty clear from the pics that Zimmerman was fighting for his life. If Zimmerman didn't kill Trayvon, he would have been killed himself AND Trayvon would still end up dead later at someone else's hand.
Ultimately, Trayvon's parents killed Trayvon. Poor parenting killed Trayvon, nothing more.
"Everybody else, sit your butts down, take some jiu jitsu, and stop the madness."
Jiu jitsu is a fighting martial art. How do you "sit down" and learn it? Just wondering.
Amy Jellicoe
8:19 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Gee Racer X...."Don't believe the media hype"....but your hype and the information presented by the Zimmerman's defense team is the TRUTH? Pardon me, but disrespectfulness, and lack of home training, is a crime punishable by death? I respectfully disagree. Hopefully, I'm respectful enough not to be murdered. I hope George Zimmerman rots in prison and then gets murdered by an inmate, Jeffrey Dahmer style.
John B
10:35 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Really Amy? Seems like you know exactly what happened that night. And for someone who is advocating non violence and gun control please explain to me how that reconciles with hoping Zimmerman gets murdered in jail? I wouldn't exactly define you as the voice of reason...rather fuel to the fire.
Amy Jellicoe
10:27 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
John B.
I know exactly what happened that night. An armed, grown man shot and killed an unarmed youth. The dead youth can't defend himself. The murderer has a voice, and he is vilifying the dead child. It's good to be alive!
Karsten Torch
9:16 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Yeah, and if Zimmerman hadn't been armed, he would have been the dead one. But, since some young thug would have still been alive, this would have been better, right?
Good Grief Y'all
9:19 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Karsten, Zimmerman's life and Trayvon Martin just being alive would be a different outcome if that big brave neighborhood protector had stayed in his truck, gun or no gun. You're calling the victim a thug, why? Because he stood up to someone stalking him, minding his business and interfering with his civil rights? Isn't that being brave - being a man, defending himself? Zimmerman was the aggressor . . . an armed one. Preemptive killing of someone who might someday, if he lives, become a criminal is still against the law. Also playing God.
John B
4:19 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Well then...case closed. Amy and GGY know exactly what happened that night. No need for a trial. Let's just hang Zimmerman.....
Good Grief Y'all
5:20 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
John B, what I said has been reported. No delusions there. And you think my delivery sucks? Maybe I should take that as a compliment, considering the source. Thank you!
Mr. B
7:18 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Reported by whom? MSNBC? Let's just do away with courts and let MSNBC decide everything.
Good Grief Y'all
7:34 am on Saturday, December 8, 2012
Reported by various reasonably creditable news outlets, broadcast and print. GZ should have stayed in his truck. The only thing right he did that night was to call 911.
His other stupid, dangerous actions took a life.
Tammy Osier
6:38 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Amy, I think we forget what the purpose of gun is. It is for protection. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we took up all the guns. It would have to be from law abiding citizens, and the crooks that we catch. So, if we could get the guns out of the hands of the crooks that we don't catch, we'd have it made! But we can't, and one of them would break into a home and be able to rape, kill or whatever they want to do and the head of the house would be unable to do anything to protect his family. If we confiscated all the guns, that would mean tht we had found all the criminals and we would be able to lock them up. Of course, we would be going around our constitution and become a police state at that point. The argument just doesn't go anywhere. It would be a nice utopia, but doesn't work when you consider why we need them in the first place. To protect FROM the bad guy.
Amy Jellicoe
8:25 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Obviously Tammy, you're a mother, and keeping your family safe is paramount. Let's talk about all the young children who are killed by guns that law abiding citizens have in their home. Is it still worth it? If my kid is going to your house, I ask if you have a gun in your home. If yes, my kid will not go anywhere near your house. I'm not cool with people who have guns. I think you're the bad too.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
8:08 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
The short answer is YES!
As to your choice to keep your children away from homes where guns are located? THAT'S your choice too. As well as it's ours to stress to OUR children to be TOLERANT and understanding of those who keep their minds closed refusing to LEARN.
Unfortunately OUR children have to coexist with yours in the long term, but being brought up with responsibility as a cornerstone, they will be better prepared to do so...
Evelyn Smith
7:44 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Mental illness, thats the bottom line! We need to study mental illness more and recognize that the diseases exist. I don't think a gun or football had nothing to do with this sad situation. Many people don't recognize that physiological issues are never diagnosis until something horrible happen. My heart and prayers go out to all people affected by this horrible event!
Racer X
8:07 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Our society discourages men and women from being proactive- Here is the story of a guy who was working at Autozone when an armed robber came in, put him in the bathroom and went to the safe with the manager. The guy (ex- Air Force) then escaped the bathroom, ran out to his truck, retrieved his weapon and went back in to successfully thwart the robbery. What Huffpo does NOT tell you in this story is that the Sheriff asked him "Why did you not just keep running when you escaped?" The AZ employee responded that his co-workers are like family to him and that he learned in the Air Force to "never leave a man behind".
The Sheriff calls the AZ employee a hero, then two days later, the day before Thanksgiving, the AZ employee got fired. For the record he is ex Air Force and he and his wife have a baby on the way. Way to go "society".
Amy Jellicoe
8:31 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Good for AutoZone. FIRE HIM! Obviously, he's too stupid to discern how to behave in the civilian world. If the robber had shot him and crippled him, he would have sued the company and put them out of business. That's another George Zimmerman waiting to happen. Let him go get some therapy.
Karsten Torch
3:12 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Wow, you're right, let's not kill the criminal, let's let him kill other people. Because criminals have more rights than others. Please.
What we need are more stories where the POS that attempts a crime winds up dead at the hands of some armed citizen. Those are the stories that warm my heart...
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
8:13 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Why of course the employee should be fired We just CAN'T stop robberies because the customers pay for the losses when they purchase...
The Village pays one way or another FORWARD HO!
North Georgia Weather
8:20 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Exactly R. Correct as always. Where common sense went, I have no idea.
North Georgia Weather
8:24 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Amy (or whatever your name is), what are you telling criminals? By making these misplaced rules, you reduce your position of surprise and retaliation to the criminal. They would much rather rob a place that has no weapons versus a place that does.
Think about it for a minute...
Amy Jellicoe
10:16 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
North Georgia Weather (or whatever your name is), I'm not telling criminals anything. I'm telling decent, law abiding citizens to be safe from themselves. Don't own guns. Newsflash Dude! Criminals rob places that have things of value. Hence, they rob banks, jewelry stores, etc. Fortunately for me, I won't die for material possessions, nor would I kill anyone for taking anything that I can replace with money.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:21 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
@ Amy
So if that's true ...
The government's never-ending desire to tax us into oblivion, take from the worker bees and give it to anyone else will solve all our problems.
Because when NO one has anything and we ALL are left with NOTHING, there will be nothing to steal and crime goes away!!! Foolish us, we had no idea it's because the village loves us that it MUST destroy us!
Please remain in your (our?) homes while we assist in the transition, it's for your own protection...
North Georgia Weather
5:59 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Amy (or whatever your name is), click on North Georgia weather and you'll find my name. I only go by NGW to promote the weather blog. And what about you?
Jeff Mason
8:43 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Don't keep guns in your house and keep your emotions in control. Common Sense stuff.
Karsten Torch
3:22 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
I would argue not enough guns...especially in these cases....
Dennis the menace
11:32 am on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
An armed society is a polite society!
Karsten Torch
3:19 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Regardless of all the data to the contrary, there are still people out there that want to take guns from the hands of law abiding citizens. Or they're under some delusion that criminals will all of a sudden pay attention to laws and turn their guns in once they're illegal. Never mind the fact that crime, both with and without guns, goes up when guns are outlawed. Or that crime drops as people have more rights to carry guns. Assault weapon crimes went up during the ban, dropped after. Coincidence, I guess?
This boils down to personal responsibility. In my house, my daugher has always been aware of the guns. Knows not to touch them. If friends come over, they're put away. Pretty simple. But I know that kids would play with them if given the opportunity, so I plan accordingly. To be fair, though, if you don't want your child at my house, no problem. I have no problem letting mine come over, or just nobody going anywhere. I'm easy....
Michael k
3:49 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
It's curious how some people can be so passionate about the Second Amendment and so utterly opposed to the First.
Michael k
4:24 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
t's been two years since someone last committed homicide in Windsor, Ont.
It's a stretch that impresses law enforcement officials on both sides of the border.
"It's a record that all of us right across the country envy, it's really quite extraordinary and I think it's something that the people of Windsor should be very, very proud of," Toronto police Chief Bill Blair said.
"I use it as an example," Minneapolis police Chief Timothy Dolan said earlier in September.
As of Sept. 1, Minneapolis had 22 homicides this year.
Gun control touted
"The cities are so similar in so many ways, the policing is so similar — except for one factor, and that's that they have reasonable gun control up in Canada," Dolan said.
Windsor police credit those gun control laws and their focus on local guns, gangs and drugs for keeping the homicide rate low.
"It's a long stretch, but to attribute it to any one thing, I think, would be really dangerous," Windsor police Chief Gary Smith said. "There's a lot of things that stop the homicide rate, but the biggest factor is how we police it, because if we can keep the guns off the streets then that also reduces the risks."
Detroit a stark contrast
Detroit, which is just 1,200 metres from Windsor and has a population four times larger, has recorded 260 homicides to date in 2011.
Racer X
7:47 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Michael K.- Nothing personal, but to credit gun control as the reason for fewer murders in Windsor than in Minneapolis is misleading. Though neighbors, one is a Canadian city that is 77% White and 3.9% Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor,_Ontario#Demographics) while Minneapolis is a city in the USA that is 70.2% White and 17.4% Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Minneapolis#Income.2C_employment_and_disparity)
One could make the assertion that there are far fewer murders in Windsor than Minneapolis because there are fewer Black people, but that would be racist.
I am not even going to address Detroit.
My point is that there are MANY fundamental differences between the two cities and gun control may well have nothing to do with the decrease in murders. For example, sweeping changes in border control have done a really good job in keeping nefarious Americans out of Canada, which could easily be stemming the murder rate. Also, Canada is much harder on the drug trade than we are. In the US the criminals have too many rights and we are much easier on them.
I believe the higher murder rate between the two cities is more an indicator of how lost our country is. Canadians hold themselves much more accountable for their circumstances while we Americans blame everyone but ourselves. Guns have little, if anything, to do with it. Why hasn't anyone in Windsor been murdered with a knife? Because, generally, Windsor has higher quality citizens than Minneapolis.
Tammy Osier
7:50 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Amy, to answer the question posed to Racerx, Is lack of home training punishable by death? YES!!!! Let me explain.
I actually work with gang members and kids in trouble with the law. When I do life skills, I have to reteach them that their body language means everything. They wold come to me in trouble, and when reading the referral, I always had to point out that when you curse at someone, refuse to answer theri question and consequences ensue, you suffer those consequences. Answer the question. Watch your anguage. cooperate with adults. Simple. I worked with law enforcement who did everything they could to help those kids understand that you can't run from Police, assault an Officer etc... without dire consequences. If you refuse to give your name, assault an Officer, pull out a weapon,or run, you may end up dead. Yes, your body language and manners can mean your life.
To answer the next question. I would have reservations letting my child go to someone's house who had guns. Again, that's a personal responsibility issue. I would certainly ask, as I know you would.
Amy Jellicoe
9:57 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Wow Tammy,
This comment: "Is lack of home training punishable by death? YES!!!!", makes you a cold and heartless woman. I'm frightened to be living in a community with people like you and Racer X. It's this same mentality that breeds and nurtures the George Zimmermans of the world. I pray to God the gun control laws get stricter. Otherwise, more children are going to lose their lives, and more people like you, are going to lose their freedom.
Racer X
10:16 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Amy- Lack of home training is not punishable by death, but being stupid is. Life is hard, it's even harder when you are stupid. Stupid mistakes get people killed all the time. His parents did not teach him how to be smart, how to make good decisions and because of that Trayvon is dead. Trayvon quite obviously attacked Zimmerman which, as it turns out, was a stupid thing to do. I believe Darwin has done a study on this subject.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:28 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Make poor choices out in the world and death may come sooner than later.
Remember, life itself is terminal, your own actions have some influence on the length of the stay.
Tammy Osier
7:59 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
When I was young, we were taught respect for weapons. You were more afraid of what yor Daddy would do to you if you went near them than to touch something that you knew was off limits. You had a heathy fear - and respect - for them. We didn't go around shooting each other up. Didn't happen.
I heard a scenario of the issue of this post today that made sense. Let's say that the girlfriend, in fear of her life, ran to her purse and pulled out a .38 revolver and pointed it at him. It might have calmed his temper down considerably. He may have come to his senses and backed off if he knew she meant business. Her life might have been saved had she been able to defend herself or at least DETER the attack. Sometimes cops walk around on a beat or patrol for one reason only - to DETER someone from making a bad decision. Deterrence is a good thing. It's prevention. The bad guys are always going to make the wrong decision. But the good guys can stave it off by deterring if possibly.
The other alternative is that she would be dead, unable to defend herself in any wayAs it turns out, she had no choices.
Tammy Osier
8:47 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
RacerX, I was going to bring up the border control but you beat me to it. Did you know that you can't go into canada if you have EVER had a DUI? They will trace you back to your misspent youth even though you haven't inbibed for 30 years. No joke. Obviously, they have a better class of people residing there. In the US, we'll accept just any old body. Heck, we've got people that are here because they've committed crimes in their countries and have escaped here to avoid prosecution. those tats don't wash when so many other all over the world show that crime rates go down when the criminals don't know who might be armed and it's encouraged as a society to arm yourself. The statistics are there for the finding.
Tammy Osier
10:12 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Amy, that's the reality of what can happen when someone doesn't behave properly. I didn't say that I think it SHOULD be (God forbid!), I said that if a person chooses to diss someone with a gun or a law officer, the natural consequence might just be death. I taught my kids how to behave towards others so that they might live a happy and prosperous life, not one behind bars or God forbid, dead because of poor choices. If you work with criminals (as I do), and have gone to funerals of kids who could have chosen to not provoke a dangerous person, you may find that you agree (when you put this in the context in which it was intended). I have been to 4 gang funerals; two of them were 17, one 16 and one a mere 15. Each one decided to play chicken and lost. To be continued..
Amy Jellicoe
11:09 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
I get it. There are parts of these United States of America, where people get killed for being Gay, Black, Mexican, White, and even for being stupid, like Racer X says. It's the world we live in. I really get it. However, it is irresponsible to say being disrespectful is punishable by death. I understand the context in which you've explained it, but the comment stings. I can't justify people just any schmuck having a gun. GZ did a wonderful thing when he called 911 right before TM "attacked" him. He's going to regret that night when it's too late because he's going to prison. I promise you!
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:34 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Being disrespectful in some situations IS deadly, in reality it's irresponsible to think any other way.
One may not personally care for the facts and real world experiences Tammy has described in this discussion, but her points are indeed sound and should be heeded.
Tammy Osier
10:14 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
I had a friend who was a good parent but the Dad wasn't, and her son was very disrespectful towards authority. He got arrested once, not for the original infraction (smoking in public), but for getting irate and cursing at officers, refusing to comply, becoming unruly. He went to jail. Had he simply put the cigarette out and let the officer explain that there is a rule about that in public, everything would have worked out. Instead, he took it to the next level and got locked up. Next time, he might get that attitude with the wrong person and not be lucky enough to just get locked up. I speak from experience, and it's why I spend my life trying to teach life skills to those who maybe didn't get the proper raising. I call that helping them and loving them enough to confront behaviors and teach them better. I don't know how you can call that cold and cruel. I want to keep them from death, not cause it by thinking it's ok to not teach your children how to function in society.
Tammy Osier
10:46 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Amy. before you make judgements, maybe you should read everythng I wrote. Did you miss the part about gang members? Funerals of children? The examples from my experiences? The fact that I make a living trying to save people by teaching them what they may not have been taught at home to help keep them from trouble? You must think that people can behave any way they want and society has to bow to their whims. My friend's situation and Trayvon Martin are similar. I make a living telling kds, "obey the adult the FIRST time"... To question, talk back, or become disrespectful may give someone an impression that you are something that you're not and they will react to it.
I don't think Trayvon was being judged by his hoodie, I think he was judged by his behavior. I could be wrong, because none of us know what happened that night. Zimmerman may or may not have identified himself- maybe both to blame. Who knows? But from the testimony I heard, I've heard that scene played out a thousand times. I wonder if he had stopped and explained it and asked if he'd like to come and see for himself if he'd be alive. Quite possibly. Behavior DOES make a difference, and behavior is taught mainly by parents.
Amy Jellicoe
11:48 pm on Wednesday, December 5, 2012
I am making judgements Tammy, and I did read everything you wrote. Three times, as a matter of fact. Let's make one thing clear. I respect you for not being a coward like myself (and several other blabbermouths), and hide behind the keyboard with offensive or opposing comments. Of course, my name is not Amy, and I would never talk like this to people in real life. With that said Tammy, I'm still trying to figure you out. You work with teens, you try to help keep out of trouble, but you seem clueless about how teens think. They know EVERYTHING and yes, behavior is taught by parents, but what teen listens to their parents? I believe most parents are like you and me. We teach our kids the right way, and we want them to make the right choices, and hopefully, their mistakes won't get them murdered. But if the law sees it fit to arrest a 70 year old man for vehicular homicide for an accident; then certainly, GZ should rot in jail and hell for intentional murder.
Karsten Torch
9:40 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Here's my problem with this - you hide behind a false name, and admit that you would never talk like this to people 'in real life.' That tells me that you're not really deep-rooted in your conviction, and it makes it kind of difficult to attach any level of respect to what you're saying.
But mostly, this topic comes down to self-responsibility. Both for ourselves, and our family, those we should be teaching. We would not send our children out in a car without teaching them the basics of driving, but we send them out into public without teaching them the basics of how to act. And then we're surprised and indignant when something happens. They wind up in jail, killed by somebody else they have offended, or take their own life because they do something dumb, or are not equipped to handle the real world. And being offended because this is pointed out is not helping anybody. Trayvon acted stupidly. I'm not saying Zimmerman was any better, but Trayvon was a punk that saw an older guy that he thought he could take. Guess he was wrong....
Racer X
10:02 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Karsten- You always put things much better than I do. Thanks man.
Good Grief Y'all
2:15 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
I'm not getting into the gun discussion, just want to ask Karsten this: you accuse Amy of "hiding behind a false name . . . " Do you have a problem with her not using her real full name because of a difference in viewpoint, or do you also have a problem with John B, Racer X, Mr. B, NGW and others "hiding behind a false name"? I can't speak for them, but no matter what your viewpoint is, there's nothing wrong with using a moniker on these public forums. In fact, it's the smart thing for privacy's sake, and safety's sake. Otherwise, you might get the bad guy mad at you because of your opinion or trash talk and become a victim of gun, knife, fist or cyber attack. (not you, as you seem to be civil except when talking about our POTUS and Dems)
Karsten Torch
5:17 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
No, I pretty much have a problem with anybody not using their real name. Hard to take somebody seriously. I may not agree with Brian on much of anything, but at least he uses his name, so is worthy of engaging in dialogue. Racer and anybody else are kind of on my side on most issues, so there's no reason to take issue with it. But if Racer X said "I use a fake name on here because I would never interract with anybody the way I do on here since nobody knows who I am," then yeah, that respect level would drop of precipitously.
Oh, and I'm not real concerned about reprisals. Bring it on. If somebody is such a loser that they want to get confrontational in person over some comments on a blog, they have other issues, and probably need to be removed from the gene pool anyway. Just sayin....
North Georgia Weather
5:26 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Good Grief... you can find my name if you cared to. Nothing is hidden.
Amy Jellicoe
9:35 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
You're right. I'm not deep-rooted in my conviction about people running around Grayson/Loganville with guns. I am a child of God. You can rely on your guns for protection. I'll rely on God. We're both alive, so I guess something is working.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:41 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
The bit about parenting is true, teens don't always listen but that's why parenting is REQUIRED before the teen years and this is where the village concept looses it...
(The teens do hear you more than you think, but it gets harder to admit that parents may be right.)
Because when the "youngsters" get trained that no one is "responsible" and they take that concept to the turbulent teen years - we as a society are screwed...
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:43 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
So President Obama WAS right, Southerners do cling to GOD and Guns, just in differing ways.
One, the other or BOTH at the same time...
Good Grief Y'all
7:30 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
@Karsten - asked and answered: "Racer and anybody else are kind of on my side on most issues, so there's no reason to take issue with it." That's what I thought.
Amy was being honest and you kind of attacked her for that. I doubt most of what's written on these threads would be said in person by anyone writing here. . . polite society and all. If some of you do say this stuff to others' faces, you just may be part of the societal problem of anger and angst which leads to division, road rage and violence. You think Amy and I are cowardly for not using our real names, and I think you're lacking common sense by using yours. Criticism goes both ways.
Some of those you're inviting to "bring it on" may be crazy, quicker and sneakier than you. Bravado can get you killed. Smarter to use your head and maintain privacy for you and safety for anyone around you who may become a victim because of your bravado.
Good Grief Y'all
7:35 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
NGW, I don't care to. You're advertising your blog. I'm not judging that, but you're a commercial.
Good Grief Y'all
8:54 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
I'm calling double standard here. That bravado stance is what got Trayvon Martin killed and people say he was being stupid - for minding his own business and standing up to someone who was also minding his business - is that stupid or brave, or both? George Zimmerman was also stupid, but not brave. He just became fake brave because he was carrying a firearm. Without that piece, he would have stayed in his truck as he was told to do when he called 911. The gun made him brave . . . and stupid. Now he's a killer, having taken the innocent life of someone's teenage son, and he has in the process ruined his own life and that of his immediate family. But, there's hope for him, maybe he can write a book and get it turned into a movie. For Trayvon Martin, no hope, except heaven. For Martin's family, their hope is for justice. And heaven, eventually.
Tammy Osier
6:25 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
But that's my point Amy, NONE of us know what actually happened. So we CAN'T JUDGE IT. I personally think that both made very unfortunate decisions that night. But we don't know so can't judge.
You judge Zimmerman because of your beliefs on guns, so you're obviously going to be passionate. But should you wish the guy to go to hell when it's possibly that the scenario might not have even been what the media said? I just reserve judgement on both. Z had a right to carry, but I think he could have used better judgement. The kid most likely was not a choir boy, and refused to have a conversation from what I understand. It cost him his life, because that makes you look guilty. It's not always parenting. It sounded like he had decent parents. But I don't think he was a choir boy by any means. I don't trust the media. The media knows it can stir people up and I refuse to give into their manipulation.
Tammy Osier
6:43 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
I tell teens is that we should always try to see where someone else is coming from and take the high road. You can't earn respect by being disrespectful. Maybe the original wording was not right. You said that lack of home training is not punishable by death. I said that it is. I guess I should have said it CAN BE. You made it sound like I think it SHOULD be and I never said that. Come on, really? The explanations I gave should have conveyed that.
You and I are both women, therefore ruled by emotion and passion, so probably spend 1000 words trying to explain what we MEANT - lol. Sometimes I make a bold statement to make a point. This one didn't come off the way I meant for it to. Basically, I am angry when parents that don't teach their kids to be respectful, because I watch every day, helpless, as these kids flounder. I had a kid one time that was rude, disrespectful-cuss you out at the drop of a hat. I saw her mother in public (cussing at a store manager) and understood why she ws the way she was. After working with her for a while, she would look at me (after making a comment) and say, " Was that rude?" She really didn't know, and really wanted to change.
I must understand them because they trust me (you wouldn't believe stuff that they tell me-lol) and I hope, respect me. I do understand them, and don't judge them. That's why they share the things they do. As many words as I use in writing, I use very few with my charges. Mostly they just need someone to listen.
Tammy Osier
6:45 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
I'm done with this thread. Bottom line, my OPINION is that a gun did not kill her- an enraged man did. Gun control would not have kept a gun out of his hands (easy to get on the black market), but had she had education in the subject, might have been able to use one for the purpose that it was intended - for protection.
David Brown
8:17 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Amy, God bless you for bringing a balanced perspective to this hot-button issue. You make alot of sense. I agree with your concern about having your child or yourself around someone with a gun. A brother at a church in my area brags about having 26 guns in his home. You can be sure I will never step into his home. The gun rights folks might label me a hoplophobe if they want. I'm totally okay with that.:)
John B
11:42 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
David, guns travel. You may not step into his house but he shares a common place of worship with you. Aren't you afraid? And the so called brother is a dolt who suffers from alpha male syndrome. Responsible gun owners don't brag about their guns. Not a very good argument to support your stand.
Mr. B
11:45 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Even with a Georgia Weapons Carry Permit, guns are not allowed in a place of worship.
Amy Jellicoe
9:55 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
I guess we're from the same planet. I do not know people like the ones in this discussion. If I was Kasandra Perkins.....well, I couldn't be Kasandra Perkins because I would move myself and my child to safety, the minute I find out that Jevon Belcher had a gun.
Racer X
9:00 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
DB- The "brother" you speak of is an idiot and you are likely correct to stay out of his home. No one other than good friends should ever know you have a weapon.
By the way, if any of you readers are nefarious and need some extra cash for Christmas, I understand Autozone has a zero-tolerance policy on weapons so go help yourselves to the cash drawer. It should be perfectly safe for you to rob them.
Mr. B
11:44 am on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Amy and DB, I have guns in my house, my car and one in my pocket or inside my waistband at all times I am away from the house. Keep your kids away from me in case I have to shoot someone trying to harm me, my family, or even your kids. I wouldn't want to mistake them for the bad guy.
David Brown
12:03 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Mr. B, I will make sure I stay away from you. I am more terrified of you and anyone with your mindset than I am of any criminal.
Mr. B
5:35 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Racer, you reminded me of the old adage..."I'd much rather explain to the cops why there is a burglar with a hole in his chest lying in my floor than have them explain to my loved ones how my family and I have been murdered."
Karsten Torch
5:53 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Damn skippy....
There are some people in this world that just need to be removed from it.
Racer X
8:38 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
DB said "Mr. B, I will make sure I stay away from you. I am more terrified of you and anyone with your mindset than I am of any criminal."
Mr Brown- The irony is that Mr. B is the good guy. Did you ever watch Westerns as a kid? He's the one in the White hat, the one that will step up and stand up for those who can't or won't stand up for themselves.
Amy Jellicoe
8:59 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
Where in the world do you live Mr. B? Some ghetto in Detroit? I live in Grayson, GA. I've never been unfortunate enough to be approached by a criminal. I've never touched a gun before in my life, and I decided to get a burglar alarm in my home because the homeowner's insurance gave me 20% discount. Come to think of it, I've never even heard a gunshot in my neck of the woods. Occasionally, I'd get an intruder in my backyard. I call him Roger the Rabbit. I put food out for Roger and he brings the wife, kids, and cousins sometimes. What do people in Loganville/Grayson do with their guns? Keep it warm next to their bodies? Mr. B, I hope your wife is armed just like you. She may end up unfortunate like poor Kasandra Perkins.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:53 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
So you have never experienced the intrusion of a criminal act personally and yet positions taken seem VERY judgmental against some that might actually have...
Now that would normally make a thinking person take pause on some level, what might they know from experience that I don't?
Two things
May you NEVER experience that life changing event-ever.
But if you do, may your positions survive the test...
Racer X
6:41 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Wake up Amy, for your own sake:
Though one may be naive enough to think they have never been approached by a criminal, it doesn't mean it's true. Ask a cop, they look for easy targets.
As far as what people in Loganville/Grayson do with their guns, if they are smart, they are going to the range and becoming proficient with them.
I hope Mr B's wife is armed too. A husband and wife who are both good with a gun make a great team. Plus, there is no rule that it's only the man's job to protect the family. I know some women who are wicked good shots, and even better mothers.
Racer X
7:45 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Mr. B- "I'd much rather explain to the cops why there is a burglar with a hole in his chest lying in my floor than have them explain to my loved ones how my family and I have been murdered."
Just one hole? That means large caliber. May I venture a guess? 1911 .45 ACP with Black Talon rounds or maybe Bonded PDX1?
Racer X
8:18 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Amy- I LOVE Rabbits, but I can only ever eat one at a time.
Good Grief Y'all
8:32 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
R, I betcha Amy was talking about putting food out for a literal rabbit or some other critter. Calm down.
Mr. B
9:02 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Sorry, been away for a while. Let me try to catch up.
Amy, I live on Lake Lanier in a gated subdivision where we have had many more than our share of break-ins and violent crimes. My wife was armed and very proficient. She passed. I won't go into details but let me just assure you I didn't shoot her.
Racer - Good choice of weapon. Actually, its a Glock 23 with Hornady Critical Defenders. It might be multiple holes but they are well placed. Or it could be all 13 through the same hole.
I love Lapin too. Roasted with carrots and potatoes.
David Brown
8:33 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
"Racer X", your latest comment should be deleted. Your last sentence "Have fun hugging the guy that violates your wife, maybe you could have a threesome. I'd prefer to shoot him" clearly violates Patch's Terms of Use and common decency.
Racer X
8:37 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
I will delete and re-post as I do not wish to offend, but I hope you get my point. You better learn to defend your loved ones and yourself in any situation. It's part of being a man......man.
David Brown
8:41 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
"Racer X", I pray that I never get to the place where my manhood is determined by my use of a firearm. I am secure in my manhood, even though I have never held a gun in my hands.
Racer X
8:51 pm on Thursday, December 6, 2012
DB- Manhood is not determined by owning a firearm. It is determined by your ability and willingness to do whatever is necessary to protect those whom you love. For the record, I pray you, nor I, ever have the need to do so.
Oh, and Crocks, if you are a man and wear Crocks (even camo ones), just forget about the manhood thing and please do NOT buy a gun.
Mr. B
9:03 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Uh-oh. I just looked at my feet. I guess I need some new shoes.
Tammy Osier
6:41 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
GGY, Karsten was commenting on the fact that Amy was humble enough to refer to herself as someone who hides behind a false name (Amy brought that up). I respect Amy for that. She and I may disagree on many things, but I noticed that she is a very honest person about herself and I respect that. At least she doesn't take peoples words out of context and throw them back at them and make an argument that isn't there for the sake of argument. Just sayin'.
Good Grief Y'all
7:44 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
At T.O., Karsten made a judgment about Amy for not using her real name, "hiding behind" he said, to which she honestly admitted. I'm a very honest person, but you haven't noticed. Maybe it's because my honesty has sometimes been directed at you. I have never taken anyone's words out of context and thrown them back for argument's sake or any other reason. Proof, please. You should back up a statement like that. Just sayin' . . . by the way, that's a tired old sayin' If you want to blog you should refresh your phraseology. Besides, I wasn't talking to you, and here you are potshotting. That's a bad habit you have.
Racer X
8:12 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Tammy- You said about Amy, "At least she doesn't take peoples words out of context and throw them back at them and make an argument that isn't there for the sake of argument"
What about when you said "Is lack of home training punishable by death? YES!!!! Let me explain." Then you went on with a perfectly reasonable explanation of what you meant.
Amy replied with "Is lack of home training punishable by death? YES!!!!", makes you a cold and heartless woman", this after your logical, well thought out and informed explanation.
"Cold and heartless woman"? I think not. I would venture to say you a likely quite the opposite. If anything, from what I have read, you probably have too big of a heart.
You are a much better Christian than I.
Good Grief Y'all
8:37 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Racer X, I've been through enough of these exchanges to know that T.O. was talking about me regarding that "out of context" statement - not Amy. Maybe she was not being brave and honest because she didn't direct that comment at me, but meant it for me. From what I have read T.O.'s big Christian heart only extends to Republicans or undeclared conservatives. She was trying to soften Karsten's comment, which was blatant . . . "hiding behind".
Good Grief Y'all
8:42 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Hey, Tammy, how's that application for government assistance or grant (assistance) going for you to further your education? Off topic, I know, but your "out of context" comment reminded me that I read this in another post of yours. That context thing was often used by Republicans in the campaign to try to explain away their foot-in-mouth (actually candid) statements. Rs also are anti-govt. programs except when beneficial to them. That's the definition of hypocrisy and double standard.
Racer X
8:43 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
GGY- As far as I am concerned, Tammy and Karsten are beyond reproach. Any argument you might have against them is futile with me. Good luck to you in your other endeavors.
Good Grief Y'all
9:11 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Racer X, and yet you must have read my comments, giving them some modicum of value, huh? I would expect nothing less of you in cheerleading for T.O. and K.T. You all are cut of the same cloth, based on your comments. That's contrary to the teachings of Jesus, to only hang with and side with those of like minds and life stations. That's easy to do. Harder to do is to pay attention and be open-minded to the opposition - you may still disagree but could also learn something. But it's hard to have a conversation in writing or in person with name-calling and insulting, because then you're having to be on defense. Then there is the tactic of potshotting - basically, sticking your nose in someone else's exchange, not to discuss, but to take aim and insult or falsely accuse. Those elements don't do anything but shut down constructive debates. Read back through the posts and see who's doing that. This thread has been fairly tame, but others not so much.
John B
9:28 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
I see things are slow at the broom factory again today................
Good Grief Y'all
2:01 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
John B, another of the favored posters hiding his true identity. What's your excuse? Karsten doesn't need to know, but I would be interested. This applies to you: "Then there is the tactic of potshotting - basically, sticking your nose in someone else's exchange, not to discuss, but to take aim and insult or falsely accuse." You're one of the pro potshotters.
John B
4:49 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
GGY...if I were to take potshots I would come up with a list of adjectives such as pompous, arrogant, self absorbed, boastful, self-centered, superior, vain....and a few others to describe the tone of your posts. For the record, I agree with about 50% of what you post but your delivery sucks. Please refer to the list of adjectives. Merry Christmas. I hope Santa is good to you this year.........
Good Grief Y'all
5:11 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
John B, I'm stunned. That's quite a list of adjectives. I think that means you agree with very little of what I say. You have never stated agreement with 50% of what I say. I do remember you agreed with my "Go Dawgs!" post, but you had to add an insult even to that. People rarely like the delivery from someone they can't refute with facts. I'm not in a popularity contest here. Here's your potshot after my comment: " I see things are slow at the broom factory again today." It's your delivery that sucks, sir. You have never seen me write such an insult at even T.O. , and to me, her delivery is all of what you described, plus it sucks. (But you like it b/c you agree with her.) Still, I don't call her names and insult. The truth hurts, so I can see why you dislike my style. You're a naughty boy. Santa won't be good to you. You'll have to be good to yourself.
John B
5:16 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
The more you post the more you prove my point...please keep posting.....
Good Grief Y'all
7:28 am on Saturday, December 8, 2012
At your service, John B. You also prove mine. And you're such a gentleman about it ;)
Tammy Osier
6:46 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
Got to interject here - Amy, (re: your detroit comment) - I taught 7 kids that lived in Grayson - the neighborhood they lived in was 250k-350k. They sold drugs, and were arrested for weapons many times. if I told you their names, you'd have heard of them. Two now in prison for murder, two for armed robbery and some of the others are probably still selling drugs to the rich kids in the neighborhood, except for one that I think we were able to reach. I read the detention blotter and have never seen his name thankfully. They committed crimes galore, but because they were juveniles,kept being put back on the street...until finally, two of them took a life and were 17 so went up to the big house (where they need to be away from me and mine, you and yours). Those are expamle of some I've met from grayson. I work the uglier side of this stuff and don't see pristine when I see a small community anymore. gangs are moving to suburban areas- those rich kids have the money to keep them in business. It ain't inner city anymore- not in Gwinnett County.
David, you've obviously never dealt with a real criminal. I can't imagine why you would say such a strange thing. If you were trying to make a point, you made a point that you would defend a criminal over someone trying to save you from someone doing you harm??? Makes me curious what bumper stickers you have on yor vehicle. ;)
8:29 am on Friday, December 7, 2012
A suggestion for David and Amy and any others who are irrationally afraid of guns- google 'gun free zone kit'...there is one link you can go to order your own kit, which comes complete with a yard sign that shows a handgun with a red circle and stripe through it, and it says "Gun Free Residence, Agressors will be met with Disarmed Victims relying exclusively on dialing 911" ...
Bet y'all dont have the guts to put that sign in your yard...
David Brown
5:12 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Jimmy, thanks for the irrational suggestion. I will continue to trust God to protect me. He has done an excellent job thus far.:) My only worry is irrational folks like you.
Amy Jellicoe
7:15 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
How is it irrational to be afraid of something that's designed to kill people? And no, I would never put up such a ridiculous sign in front of my house. My sign says, "VICIOUS PIT BULL." BTW, I'm afraid of pit bulls too, they should be outlawed just like guns; but that's another story.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
8:52 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
As to the sign kit comment above, the truth can often be entertaining but rarely irrational…
4:49 pm on Saturday, December 8, 2012
No need to worry about me David...some day when God is busy protecting somebody else, a well trained legally carrying gun owner like me might save your life...It might just be that it was his will that I be there to protect you. As for Amy, fear of a pit bull is much more rational than fear of a firearm. A gun in a holster, on the hip of a trained person cant do you harm without deliberate action on behalf of the carrier. Dogs, not just pit bulls, unfortunately have been known to 'go off' on their own and attack even their owners without apparent provocation.
Racer X
7:20 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Amy- You really aren't that bad, you shouldn't label yourself as a vicious pit bull.
Tammy Osier
8:34 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Correct. I was not referring to Amy. I think she misunderstood what I was saying on the parenting comment, but she is honest, although a bit hard on herself. she has an opinion and is passionate about it. BTW...I went to work today and got home to find that GGY talked about me from 7:30 to 5:30. WOW, then accuses others. Like I said, Amy's are opinions-GGy is all personal attack for which I won't lower myself with the same. And for the record...most of those people I work with in jails etc.. could all be democrats for all I know. I don't take a survey of their political affiliations before I can help them (oh wait...we only love our own). And yes, I help direct them to government programs-the intended purpose of those programs. You ASSUME that conservatives think they are evil - uh..no. We only think it's evil to take money from working people and spend billions and trillions for programs that seldom seem to materialize-yet-the same politicians suddenly get raises, new jet planes and go on yet another vacation while people are losing their jobs. That's what we object to. We're against government corruption in the GUISE of helping the poor.
And what you call "pot shots' was a simple explanation of what someone was trying to say - you misread it and took it out of context and then began to criticize. When a teacher corrects a child in school, is that a pot shot? geez. Here's a novel idea - let's stick to a mature conversation about he subject matter.
Tammy Osier
9:01 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Well, Amy. since we now know there's no pit bull in your house, don't accidentally post your address - LOL
Do you like German Shepherds?They are good for protection.
Amy Jellicoe
10:47 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Hey Tammy,
I'm good with the dog thing. I was about 11 years old, riding my bike, and this dog started to chase me. I fell off the bike and the stupid animal continued to chase me. It caught up with me, never bit me, but I swear I saw the little mongrel laughing at me. It's been over 30 years and that day still haunts me. I adopted a cat from Petco a few years ago, but he ran away after 6 months with the family. I guess it was never meant to be.
Tammy Osier
10:57 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
Hahahaha...I can just see that dog laughing (you have such a way with words) - lol. No wonder you're scared of them. German shepherds are actually very gently, loyal dogs. The only time they are going to growl viciously is when you (his master) is not home and someone wants in your house. They are very protective. Might be a good match for you.
You've got to remember that those pets were strays at one time and roamed around. I tried to adopt one from Pet Smart and they said i had to keep him locked up in my house and to sign a paper stating i'd not let him be an outdoor cat. Needless to say, I didn't adopt. I'm allergic so he'd have to stay outside. Maybe that's why they want them indoors. Hmmm..
Tammy Osier
11:01 pm on Friday, December 7, 2012
I totally get that 30 yers ago thing. I was riding my bike in my friend Kellie's woods and rode inbetween two trees. The sun was bright and I didn't see the wolf spider (big as your hand) directly between those trees until I was a q/4 inch from it. I screeched to a halt, threw my bike down ad screamed so loud the trees shook. I still remember that and that was 40 years ago. lol
Ed Varn
9:08 am on Saturday, December 8, 2012
" and this dog started to chase me. I fell off the bike and the stupid animal continued to chase me. It caught up with me, never bit me, but I swear I saw the little mongrel laughing at me."
What an awesome metaphor for the Federal government, which IS about to bite us all.
Amy Jellicoe
5:11 pm on Saturday, December 8, 2012
I swear Tammy, you're actually making me seriously consider this. Before I joined the gym, I used to walk around Alexander Park by myself. The earlier I'd be out there, the less women there would be out walking. I didn't feel safe at all. It's times like those when I'd get pet envy. I look at man with his best friend, just strolling in the park...and I think to myself, "I want one of those." Before that fleeting thought could come into fruition, I opted to join the gym. I will think about it though.
Tammy Osier
8:02 pm on Saturday, December 8, 2012
I just like big dogs. Labs are the most gentle (if you have a dog fear, they are perfect), but so are German Shepherds. Both are extremely loyal and easy to train, so would obey you if you said to attack. German Shepherds look vicious but are really not. Wonderful pets and good for protection.