text:
Sooooooo, if nobody else is going to "go there" by all means allow me to be the first. Why is Mitt Romney getting a pass from everyone from the mainstream media to the evangelical right on the matter of his religion? While I certainly don't believe there should be a religious test for public office, religion has always been part of the vetting process for our Presidential candidates.
President Obama's religious affiliation was the topic of much discussion during the 2008 election and remains so to this day. As recently as just a few weeks ago mainstream religious figures like Franklin Graham were questioning our President's professed Christian faith so as Romney himself would say, "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."
In the interest of full disclosure, I do have a bit of a personal bone to pick with Mormonism. My ex-wife converted to the Mormon faith during our divorce and was convinced to move our two young children 1,800 miles west to Utah. Now in their 20s, I'm still dealing with the aftermath of my ex's conversion.
The first thing to understand is that Mormonism is not a Christian denomination. Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity or salvation through Christ alone as Christians do. Jesus Christ is a part of their beliefs, just as he is part of Islamic beliefs, but he is not the center of their faith. They also have a book, The Book of Mormon, that they believe holds the same authority as The Bible. Mormons believe that their church is the one true restored church which is why they go to such lengths to convert Christians to their religion.
This is where Romney comes in. All Mormon men are required to serve a 2-year religious "mission" once they turn 18. Incredibly, during the war in Vietnam young Mormon men were given a draft deferment to complete these "missions". So while other young men Mitt's age were dying in the jungles of Southeast Asia on missions of their own, Romney was off bicycling through France battling that nation's Jesuits for the greater glory of the Mormon church.
Romney isn't just your average Mormon either. He was Bishop of his ward in Massachusetts for several years which is the LDS equivalent of pastor or minister. He later served as President of the Boston Stake which is made up of over a dozen wards in eastern Massachusetts.
While he serves in no current capacity with the church it goes without saying that he is one of our country's most prominent Mormons and is well connected to church hierarchy. Last year alone the Romney's gave over $3.5 million to the Mormon Church.
So the question is, and I think this is a pretty profound question, is America ready to elect it's first non-Christian President? Have we "progressed" to the point where religion is no longer an issue for those we choose to guide our nation? Would you feel different if Romney were a Buddhist? How about if he were Muslim? Honestly, I'm still trying to sort out my feelings on this. Help me out here.
Joe Dirt
4:06 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Correction - second non-Christian President. Although Obama 'claims' to be a Christian he is the first president to not regularly attend church services while being in office. So he may claim a religion - but he does not practice it.
Rebecca McCarthy
4:15 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Joe, I know many active and loving Christians who, for various reasons, such as their hospital jobs or the health of their elderly parents or children, do not attend church regularly. We practice our religion everyday in our lives, not just on Sundays.
Brian Crawford
4:21 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Sorry Mr. Dirt but you seem to be a bit misinformed. President Obama has attended services as often as any other of our recent Presidents. Presidents generally choose not to attended "regular services" out of respect for the church members they would inconvenience with their security requirements. I have observed President Obama practicing his Christian faith on many occasions.
4:30 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
I think the reason people were questioning Obama about being Muslim or not, was more due to the fact that the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 and who our soldiers fight everyday are Muslims. I am a strong Christian and cannot be waived but I do not judge others on their personnel religious choices, as long as they believe in something and it causes no harm to others then there is no reason to judge or question them.
Brian Crawford
4:43 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
I think you can rest assured Christina that Barack Obama is your brother in Christ.
Racer X
6:56 am on Monday, June 25, 2012
The Koran dictates repeatedly that non-followers, infidels, must be exterminated. The Koran tells them to kill us. They take that shit seriously and we need to as well. Any orthodox Muslim, no matter how ensconced in the American way of life, has to do as his Mosque requires and killing Infidels is on the agenda. I have had American Muslims admit this to me.
I have no problem with Muslims except for their propensity to kill people of other religions. If we want to protect ourselves, we must withdraw our troops from all of the Middle East and tighten our borders to keep them out, all of them. The more we intrude on them, the more murderous they become. They have been killing each other for thousands of years, are nothing more than animals and need to be left to their own devices.
As for Obama, there is no question he plays both sides of that fence. Someone who has Muslim faith cannot be a "brother in Christ". If Obama is re-elected, we can kiss our beloved country good-bye. Is that how we want to reward all of the brave men and women who have fought for and died for our country? Do we just give our country away to outsiders?
4:42 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Mormons believe themselves to be Christians. (Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints )
If THEY believe themselves to be Christians it's pretty difficult to argue that they arent Christians isnt it?
Or are you suggesting that somehow one denomination is right and another is wrong? Who, exactly , gets to judge ? More importantly ,why bother?
Frankly I couldnt care less if the dude worships a pile of filthy socks while dancing naked with rabid wolverines if thats his thing. A man's faith is between him and whatever magic invisible friend/sky wizard / complex carbohydrate he believes in and is no one else's business.
Tell me what you're going to do about unemployment,foreign policy ,taxes , immigration etc. REAL issues that matter and keep your personal superstitions to yourself .
Brian Crawford
4:49 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Okay, I think that puts you squarely in the "does not matter" column. But again, Mormons don't claim to be Christians. Christians believe that salvation is achieved through faith in Christ alone. Mormons do not.
4:43 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
I am getting really sick and tired of the Morman bashing, and people saying they are not Christians. I myself was raised Catholic, I now just consider myself a born again Christian. In my first marriage, my wife was born raised and practiced Morman, as most of her family, which included both her father and grandfather who are both pasters in there churches. Of the many times i went to there churches, they preached and talked about the same teachings that all other Christian churches teach. They never once tried to convert me, or tell me being a Catholic was wrong, for again "We are all taught the same basic principles! That Jesus is the savior." To this day, i still speak with many of them, and they are some of the most honest respected people you will ever meet. So for those who for whatever reason think they are not Christians, you really need to pick up a book and try to learn some truth!
Brian Crawford
5:00 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Well Joe, then your experience has been much different than mine. Dr. Richard Land, of The Southern Baptist Convention also disagrees with you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljm9WeaePLE
William D. McMillian
10:50 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
In your reference to picking up a book and learning some truth. The the problem is what book are you referring?. The only real truth is found in the 1611 KJV Bible. The problem with the denominations other than Christian is they either add to or take away from the word of God. Rev. 22:18,19. You cannot add to or take away from God's and call yourself a christian.
Racer X
10:02 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
William, I am under the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that King James himself added and took away from the bible to create the 1611 KJV Bible. It seems to me that to say the 1611 KJV Bible is the word of God is like saying King James himself, was God or a tool of God. It's hard to buy into that. Who is to say that King James wasn't just another jackass? And who are you to say that the 1611 KJV is the end all to Christianity? It could be that the 1611 KJV Bible is just an exceptionally good history book.
Either way, I think saying Romney isn't a Christian is 100% Grade A BS and anyone who says so ought to be ashamed of themselves. I think it is more important for our President to be an actual American. At best, Obama is only half American and that just doesn't cut it for me.
4:56 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
It seems as though you are attempting to inflict your version of Christianity on to those who may not believe as you do . Sorry dude, you dont get to define other's beliefs according to your own >
Here's a link from the official LDS website to help you understand that they do indeed believe themselves Christians regardless of your personal beliefs to the contrary
Brian Crawford
5:14 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
The first thing you learn about the Mormon church is they have a great PR machine. Regardless of what rosy picture they paint, they are not Christian in the traditional sense of the word. In their own words "traditional Christianity has wandered from the truth over the centuries". The Christian church has a long history and has evolved into many different denominations that share several core beliefs. The Mormon church is not part of this history and is not "just another denomination". I'm not saying this is good or bad but it is an important distinction to be made.
Brian Crawford
5:23 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
By the way, the Mormon church certainly believes THEY get to define others beliefs according to their own. Why do you think they're knocking on your door?
Lee Sanders
5:25 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
I've often wondered how he has gotten the endorsement of the religious right as well. It does seem odd that they have a sitting (Protestant) Christian in the White House and up for re-election but are willing to overlook the "faith" button and elect someone whose beliefs many consider a to be a cult. (Just ask Pat Robertson LOL) All because he's a Republican. I guess you can bend on some issues but not on others?
I have to admit, I agree with Grant. I don't give a rip what he believes. Although some of the beliefs of the LDS faith seem a little out there, I am not going to decide what religion is right or wrong. Who am I to judge?
Brian, you do bring up a good point. How would you all feel if he was a practicing Pagan, Buddhist, or Hindu? Not that there is anything wrong with any of these religions but I have a feeling the "majority" would have left him in the dust long ago.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
5:33 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
They may be reviewing the actions / fruits of works performed and coming to differing conclusions...
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
5:27 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
As to if religion matters anymore - don't forget to check out this discussion from a few days ago …
And to the assurances given about the current occupant of the Whitehouse, it's NOT our place to judge.
But basing one's position of faith on the frequency of being seen in a building - may not be the best yardstick to use if one is so inclined to proceed.
Lee Sanders
5:29 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Actually Brian, so do Christian's by way of "The Great Commission". The Christian Church tries to proselytize too. Any religion that say's "our way is the only way" is probably out to change people's minds about their own beliefs. That argument doesn't hold a lot of water.
Brian Crawford
5:36 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
For the record, I am not an evangelical. When I go to church, which shamefully isn't often, I'm a live and let live Presbyterian. My arguments here are mostly for discussion.
Lee Sanders
6:08 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Brian. No problem. I was just pointing out that one of the tenants of the (most) Christian faiths is the belief that you go into the world preaching/teaching to all. The problem comes when that over-rides the the values or beliefs of others. Or as history likes to call it "The Crusades".
7:16 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
I've never had a Mormon knock on my door. I HAVE been visited be enough "other " Christians that I'm trying to get myself into the "Jehovas Witness Protection Program"
Attacks on the religious beliefs of others for political gain are despicable.It was despicable when they did it to O and your shot here is every bit as disgusting Brian. A man calls himself a "Christian" I'll respect that and believe him to be what he claims. Suggesting that he isnt because he doesnt follow your specific "path" is quite simply wrong , not to mention exceptionally rude.
Mormons are Christian because they say they are, they believe themselves to be believers in, and followers of Jesus Christ. I know its all about sects with some of you guys , and y'all cant even seem to agree on even a single version of your Holy Book but you dont get to discount another man's beliefs because they dont match yours. That's just wrong
In any case Romneybot v1.0 is the only one out of the pile of refuse the GOP offered up this round that didnt spend the majority of his time attempting to "out Jesus" the other guys. Other than his required wrongheaded stance on gay marriage I have little fear of Romney inserting his religion into our government.
Thats a good thing, not an attack point
Brian Crawford
7:41 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Sorry to disgust you Grant but this is exactly why this needs a public airing. Based on my understanding of the Mormon faith and my firsthand experience with Mormons, it is MY fear that Romney is much MORE likely to insert his faith into our government. It's not that Mormons aren't good people, but their religion isn't in line with traditional Christianity and it is far too repressive for most non-Christians. If that's what you want, great! Caveat Emptor!
8:08 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
So you got all butthurt at disparaging claims against Obama's religious beliefs but you'll gladly play that card against Romenybots? Even go so far as to ignore actual statements of faith, policy and belief from the actual Church source and insert your unfounded or anecdotal experience as fact ?
You expect us to believe you Brian? Dude, hypocrisy doesnt suit you. I normally find you to be insightful and reasonable, all I can see here is a plain and simple attack and an attempt to use a man's personal religious beliefs against him .
Not cool man, I had hoped you to be better than that
8:17 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Tell ya what Brian, since you feel you are the "go to " guy when it comes to other people's religious beliefs...
I am an ordained Minister of the Universal Life Church
Please tell us what I believe, how I practice my faith and what role it might play in my life..
Brian Crawford
9:20 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Never claimed to be an expert on world religions. I am however a professed Christian, not that I'm a particularly good one, and I do have some first hand experience with Mormonism. If worshiping a flying spaghetti monster gives you peace then more power to you but if you try to tell me that God has revealed to you that believing in flying spaghetti monsters is a requirement for my salvation, I'm going to disagree. I'm not trying to say Mormonism is right or wrong, but it is most definitely not a part of the traditional Christian church. I'm curious how those who have strongly held evangelical beliefs and who wish to vote for the more conservative candidate are dealing with this dilemma.
Patty Burgess
9:48 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
So, Brian is a professed Chirstian, although by his own words not a good one, and therefore he is CHRISTIAN. Mormons are professed Christians, and almost all that I have known were good ones, yet they are NOT CHRISTIANS. Exactly how does that work again? Mormons worship in a building they call temple rather than church and they read and study a different version of the bible than Presbyterians
. They also worship God and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Why are the first two things so much more important to being a Christian than the second two?
Brian Crawford
10:40 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Hi Patty, the distinctions between Mormons and Christians are much more profound than the type of building they worship in. They believe the teachings of Christ include teachings from other books including "The Book of Mormon", "The Doctrine and Covenants", and "The Pearl of Great Price" that were revealed to their prophet and founder Joseph Smith by a holy angel named Moroni beginning on the night of September 21, 1823.
11:07 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Brian writes
"They believe the teachings of Christ include teachings from other books including "The Book of Mormon", "The Doctrine and Covenants", and "The Pearl of Great Price" that were revealed to their prophet and founder Joseph Smith by a holy angel named Moroni beginning on the night of September 21, 1823."
And the Christian church is based on a "vision" some dude named Paul had about a guy who he never met ...So what? What makes one fairy tale better then the other?
rose h
9:18 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
The ULC has no traditional doctrine, believing as an organization merely in doing "that which is right." Each individual has the privilege and responsibility to determine what is right for him or her as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. The Church does not stand between the member and his or her belief system.
The ULC's stated beliefs are as follows:
Objective: Eternal Progression.
Goal: A Fuller Life for Everyone.
Slogan: To Live and Help Live.
Maxim: "We Are One."[2]
rose h
9:19 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Chris·tian (krschn)
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
I don't think ULC is a Chrstian Church.
Brian Crawford
9:56 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
That is indeed the secular definition of Christian.
10:15 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
It is "the definition" of "Christian Brian... Simply put, one that believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ...
Your definition may indeed be "different" and your can share your opinion as you like but doing so doesnt change the simple fact that Mormons ARE Christians simply because they claim to believe in and follow the teachings of Christ.
I would never begin to tell you what is required for your salvation. Your path is your own , as is mine as is Romneybot's. Only the arrogant or the ignorant claim to know the path for others...Or maybe those willing to sully themselves by picking the low hanging fruit and attempting to use religion as a political tool.
I would have assumed self respect would have put you above such ugliness, disappointed to see that you're willing to go lower than the scum on the other side..
Pitching a hissy fit because some sect doesnt "do it" in the manner that you do is weak. Posturing in an effort to use the hatred and uneducated bigotry of the blind flock is something to be ashamed of.
Are we to believe "God Hates Fags" is the standard "Christian " mantra ?
Brian Crawford
10:39 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Right, but Mormons don't follow the teachings of Christ. They add a bunch of stuff in there that is not a part of the traditional Christian belief system. If you read the link you posted through the eyes of someone who believes they are saved by grace through Christ, the differences hit you like a ton of bricks. We obviously disagree on this. While I'm sure they're out there, I don't personally know any Christians who believe "God Hates Fags".
Patrick Chandler
11:17 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
"Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity or salvation through Christ alone as Christians do."
"Christians believe that salvation is achieved through faith in Christ alone."
I have to admit I have very much enjoyed this thread, I would like to offer a word or caution or at least open the door of inclusion a good bit wider. As an ordained minister within the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) I can say that I do not believe that salvation comes through Christ alone; rather I feel that my Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. brother and sisters also shall achieve salvation. I am sensing a broader litmus test in the quotes above. Do I believe Jesus is the Messiah? Yes, I do. I am a Christian. But I believe God is bigger than any one faith tradition. Let us remember that Jesus was not a Christian himself. Nor was it his desire to begin a new faith tradition, rather to bring an existing one into a deeper relationship with God. All of this is to say that "Christian" is a broad label of folk. And when we talk about "traditional Christianity" whose tradition do we mean? Let us also remember the ways the "tradition" has been twisted over the last 2000 years by people (mostly men) whose purpose was to serve their own political means.
Brian Crawford
11:58 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Thank you for pulling me back off that ledge. I think I did mention I'm not a very GOOD Christian. I've actually done a poor job explaining myself. My personal beliefs are much closer to what you have so eloquently described. Pax.
Patrick Chandler
1:02 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Whether I think they (or anyone) else is "Christian" is irrelevant. That kind of thing tends to devolve into arguments over who is "Christian enough." As a white, heterosexual male minister who is pro-choice, an ally of GLBTIQ persons, and with a more inclusive view of salvation, I am sure there are some who would not view me as "Christian." I know how that makes me feel, so I would rather go down that road with others.
I have done some research on the Mormon faith and do find it very different from my own understanding of the faith I practice. But then again, so do the people of Westboro Baptist Church and they call themselves "Christian." (And let me be clear, I am in NO WAY comparing Mormons to the idiots who follow Fred Phelps.) I do know that we often condemn things we do not understand and that countless Mormons are good, fine, compassionate, giving people.
Greg Williams
10:39 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Patrick's statement fits right in with my own feelings. I don't feel that any one religion is right and all the others wrong. Religions that believe that they are the only one that is right and all others wrong are where I do disagree, but only on the part where they think they're right vs all others wrong. Trying to enforce your religion on me or anyone else is where it goes wrong. I don't care what religion you are as long as you don't do that.
For the record I attend a Lutheran church that has an inclusive view of salvation as well.
Karsten Torch
1:02 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
I am confused by one thing about this....Didn't Jesus say something to the effect of the only way to Heaven was through him? John 14:6, I believe. So any faith that professes belief in the New Testament would kind of have to stand hard by this line, no?
Patrick Chandler
1:32 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" (John 14:6, NRSV)
This text, about which you are speaking, as I understand it speaks not to the issue of salvation, but rather the intimacy of the relationship one can have with God, through the person of Jesus (as you see in the text, there is no mention of heaven or salvation, just "knowing" in a relational way). In other words, "if you want to see God's nature, live as I live, do as I do, pray as I pray, love as I love, welcome as I welcome, and there you shall come to understand God." As I said earlier, Jesus was trying to bring Judaism into a closer relationship with God. This is often mistakenly interpreted as a "salvation text." Also, we have to remember that these are words the Gospel writer John ATTRIBUTES to Jesus. There are no eyewitness accounts to the life and ministry of Jesus in the Bible (John's Gospel was probably written some 50-60 years after Jesus' death) and we must also remember that the Gospel writers, being human like you and me, often wrote with a particular agenda and message they wanted to get across. For John, that message was that through signs, people would come to the belief that Jesus is the Messiah. (John 20:30-31).
Daniel Reid
2:11 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Honest question for you, Patrick. You say that Jesus, in John 14.6, is actually saying, "if you want to see God's nature, live as I live, do as I do, pray as I pray, love as I love, welcome as I welcome, and there you shall come to understand God." Then you go on to basically deny the historically orthodox understanding on the inspiration and authority of scripture.
My question is, on what basis do you claim to know, really know, how Jesus lived, acted, prayed, loved and welcomed?
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
11:18 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Seems I recall from the past similar issues about JFK and Catholicism brought "up just for discussion"...
My how times change.
Brian Crawford
6:58 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Carter's "Born Again" Christianity was also a topic of much discussion.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
3:15 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
BUT on the premise you have started here
Since the Kennedy – Romney parallel is a far more similar in nature, are you saying for the record you couldn't / wouldn't / didn't vote for JFK? (Not sure of your age)
Because quite frankly, that's how this discussion is coming across…
Marne M
11:18 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
"Christians believe that salvation is achieved through faith in Christ alone."
This is certainly not the case. Catholics, who number somewhere around 1 billion Christians in the world, don't believe the "in faith alone" doctrine. Nor do Orthodox, nor Anglican, etc. etc. Sola Fide is a protestant doctrine. You can't simply exclude wide swaths of Christianity to make up your own definition.
Brian Crawford
12:04 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Ouch, smack down accepted. So then you consider Mormons to be Christian as well?
Brian Crawford
11:30 pm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012
Anyone who has searched for information about the Mormon church knows there is a lot of Mormon bashing on the interwebs, and in all fairness a lot of bad information. After much scratching about I've found what appears to be a "nutshell" introduction into the Mormon faith written by Mormons on the LDS Freedom Forum site: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21579
There is a PDF file at the bottom of the post. It is a truly interesting read.
Oscar G.
12:12 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Religion should never even be an issue when deciding our politics.
The rest of the world thinks we're all wacko for even bringing God/Jesus into a political setting. And I don't blame them.
Religion is often used by the clergy (and politicians) as a means of controling the masses.
And earlier conversation tonite had a 52 y.o. man telling us that "Obama's mother was an atheist and he wasn't even a real American." As idiotic as that sounds, there are people who believe that, and think that someone's religion, or lack thereof, is their definative label. And that somehow, their version of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" makes them more or less qualified to be an elected servant of the people. It makes my head hurt listening to that manure.
Do I feel comfortable with Mitt Romney? No, NO and Hell No! And it's really because of his business practices, as well as his affiliation with one of the biggest hate sponsors of recent years. The Mormon Church.
I don't care if you believe what the Bible says about Jesus. That doesn't dis/qualify you from being perfectly capable of doing the job at hand.
Your "magic underware," own personal planet when you die, and history of poligamy are a different story however. Your public affiliation with the largest organizations against LGBT Americans..Oh No. All done in the name of his "religion." He doesn't represent us all, so he represents none of us! Not now, and hopefully, not ever.
Oscar G.
12:22 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
And for the record, no, I'm not gay.
I do however believe in the rights of every American and to have someone at the helm who's professed belief system/church funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars into a hate campaign against certain groups of American citizens, it doesn't work for me.
That's about as Un-American as you can get in my book.
And all done in the name of his beloved religion.
No thank you. I think I'll stick with the crazy I already know best!
Brian Crawford
12:34 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Thanks for weighing in Oscar. I'm still torn about this. On the one hand, I've never voted for or against someone based on their religion. On the other it's comforting to think that the person with their finger on "The Button" shares my core values.
Chris Long
9:20 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Brian, you are on record on the Patch as being a staunchly anti-republican liberal, & you've made no secret of your contempt for all things republican (often deriding republican policies & anyone who would vote for an "idiot w/(R) behind their name"). That's fine, that's you're right, & I'm not arguing that, but it's disingenuous for you to act as if you are "torn about this". Voting for Romney is not even a consideration for you, regardless of what his religious beliefs are. & if you just wanted to pick your personal bone w/Mormonism you could have done so w/o even mentioning Romney. Your purpose w/this opinion piece is to attempt to create doubt &/or dissention among potential Romney voters under the guise of a thoughtful discussion.
PS – It's also a tad specious to say that "it's comforting to think that the person with their finger on "The Button" shares my core values". If this were such a troubling issue for you, why single Romney out? Is it that you feel Mormons have a predilection for Armageddon & are somehow more dangerous than the leaders in nuclear Russia, China, Pakistan, India, Israel & North Korea who also do not share your professed religious values?
Chris Long
9:20 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
It's also disingenuous to act as if Romney's faith has not been covered ad nauseam. This is Romney's 2nd go-around—the Mormon issue was brought up during Romney's first POTUS campaign, & has been discussed many times since then, including this election's primaries, as he's always been the presumptive nominee.
What exactly is it that you think should be vetted anyway? If you believe as you state that there should not be a religious test for office, & you perceive that Romney is not being subjected to a religious test, then where is no problem. You've gotten what you want, so why would you try to make it an issue if you think it should be a non-issue?
There is no question about Romney's faith and if he practices his faith. So the question is not, like Obama, whether or not he is actually of a particular faith or if he is just using faith as a political prop, it is, like Kennedy, whether or not people are comfortable w/the religion & its practitioners. Questioning whether or not a Mormon can/should be POTUS is just as discriminatory as whether or not a woman or a minority can/should be POTUS. That's a delicate subject, & the reason the Mormon issue is not being explored any further than it has already (& certainly not to the degree that you want it to be) is that to take it further one risks being falsely labeled a bigot, or rightfully exposed as a one (whichever the case may be).
Brian Crawford
10:14 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Sorry Chris, I can see where that might sound disingenuous. Let me clarify. I meant I am torn about the question, "Have we progressed to the point where religion is no longer an issue for those we choose to guide our nation?" I thought my feelings for Romney were obvious. I wouldn't vote for the man if he were running for dog catcher. Come to think of it the irony of that might be too good to pass up. Anyway, you get my point.
This isn't about my bone to pick with the Mormon church, that's actually kind of in the way here. It's mostly about the fact that the evangelical right is usually the most vocal about these sorts of issues and yet since Mitt locked up the nomination they've been silent as a tomb. As for the press, show me one in depth discussion about Romney's Mormonism.
A person's belief system is a rather important part of their character. At my age I straddle a generational line where these things mean more to some than others I think. If we are going to elect a man President I think we deserve to know what's in his heart because he will be making decisions that effect the entire world.
Brian Crawford
10:27 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
One of the things that attracted me most to Obama is the fact that he had dedicated much of his career to helping the poor improve their lot in life. As a Christian I recognized this as a very Christ like endeavor. The man obviously has a brilliant mind and could no doubt be making millions in annual compensation as a corporate CEO.
Romney on the other hand has spent most of his life making rich men richer, mostly himself. There's nothing wrong with that but it does speak to his personal values. Romney is a very wealthy man but it appears he has done little with his money other than give it to the Mormon Church which itself isn't exactly known for it's charitable works.
Patty Burgess
9:56 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Brian, what are your core values? Do you love your neighbor as yourself? I do. Do your turn the other cheek? I do. Do you follow the 10 commandments as closely as possible? I do. Do you believe in kindness to all, charity, humility, grace, doing to harm to others? I do. Do you believe in a Creator? I do. Do you believe you're better than millions of others on this planet who don't believe exactly that way? I don't. I'm not a Christian.
Brian Crawford
11:06 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
We share many of the same values and I certainly don't think I'm better than you or anyone because of my beliefs. Well, maybe Grant but he's a special case. j/k
If you think I'm trying to claim some kind of moral superiority here then you are misinterpreting my purpose.
11:31 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Actually Brian ,
You're attempting to claim Spiritual Superiority...Both religions are self professed "followers of Christ" you're just trying to claim that your Jesus is somehow better than their Jesus because you think your bugnutty guy that had a vision is somehow better than their bugnutty guy who had a vision..
Obviously a no holds barred Jesus on Jesus cage match is the only logical way to pick a winner...
I look forward to voting for the first candidate that has the balls to stand up and answer questions about his favorite invisible man with "My beliefs are my own and are none of your business"
The day that occurs our country will have begun to cure itself from the disease of religion it has been plagued with
1:06 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Who cares?
Religion is indoctrinated into little children - a form of brainwashing. Weak children cannot resist. Only the strong can resist.
Spiritualism without religion, indoctrination, and brainwashing is fine. Religion is a disease. I won't go crusading to eliminate religion - each person has a right to their own beliefs. However, please spare the children from the abuse of religious brainwashing. Each person has a spark of the divine and therefore that spark can be corrupted as part of the brainwashing. Religion without the spiritual aspects is a community group, which is fine.
Christianity is based on distortions introduced by the Roman Catholic church to aid in empire expansion and then later divided into other churches that suffer from the same distortions of the original catholic distortions. For instance, the scrolls chosen were hand-picked in order to make Ioshua into a deity versus an example of how to be a good man, which was his intention.
There is no heaven and no hell. Another distortion. A hell is a personal hell you create by judgement. The concept of judgement is another distortion. You only judge yourself.
"God is everywhere" is a distortion of "God is every thing (and no thing)". I Am is not even passed down in Christian texts.
Judaism, which Christian was a reformation of (Ioshua was intending with others to reform Judaism, not create a new religion) was already distorted.
1:13 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
On another front, my only complaint with the mormon religion beyond the fact that it is a religion to begin with (which makes it inherently negative like all religions) is that polygamy in the religion is skewed to favor the men versus allowing both genders to marry multiple partners.
It's also completely inexcusable that our legal system doesn't accept mormon multiple partners. That flies in the face of freedom of religion.
Furthermore, religion should be kept out of politics. There is a separation of church and state, supposedly. In reality, there is no such thing, which is sad.
Finally, many people have been murdered in the name of religion, and many people burned at the stake, crucified, etc. Any positive things that comes out of religion can be done without the religious part of it. For instance, the positive things Christians do in the community can be done the same way without the spiritual aspects.
Spirituality should be personal connection to all-that-is, inward seeking, not outward.
Marne M
1:14 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
I'm sorry if I came off a little touchy. I'm Catholic. I grew up in Minnesota, but moved to Georgia in 2000. It seems like I have to defend that I am Christian on a near-weekly basis, sometimes. It gets frustrating.
I don't think it's up to me to judge whether or not Mormons are Christians. They believe in Christ and follow his teachings. They interpret some parts of the Bible differently (this is hardly novel, since protestants and Catholics can't even agree on the number of books in the Bible). They have some extra teachings that seem a bit odd to me. But if Mitt Romney, or any Mormon, says that they are Christian, then that's enough for me, to be honest. God knows the truth of things. I'm far more concerned about their actions, their moral principles, their fiscal platforms and about a hundred other things aside from what name we give their belief system. I don't think the Pope told Kennedy what to do, and I don't think the Church of LDS is going to be directing Romney from some dark secret corner either!
Diane Bercegeay
9:53 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
I can say I'm an Olympic athlete but it doesn't make it so.
Being a Christian isn't something you say or believe about yourself to make it true. The Christian religion began in the 1st century by followers of Jesus Christ. Jesus claimed to be the son of God and he taught that the only way to God (his Father) and eternal life is through belief in him. There are not multiple paths.
Further the Bible clearly says that 'belief' in Jesus involves turning away from your sins (repent) being born again (of water and spirit which is described as being cleansed and filled with the Holy Spirit of God) and obeying Jesus' commands.
No one is required to believe this; it doesn't make you a bad person if you don't. But if you don't believe it it means you're not a Christian, even though you may be a member of a Presbyterian or Baptist or Catholic or any other protestant church.
If you think you're a Christian and you believe that 'good' people go to heaven or that there are multiple ways to heaven in addition to belief in Jesus Christ I would urge you to immediately take some time and get clear about what you believe. Your eternity depends on it.
Patrick Chandler
10:32 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
I have spent my entire life along the journey of belief, faith, and engagement with the Holy and Sacred I know as God. I have come to and been nurtured in my faith and relationship with God through my relationship with Jesus. I am very clear today about what I believe and feel my eternity is in good shape. I am a student of scripture, knowing not only what it says, but its meaning (as I have come to understand it) based upon its historical context. Faith is not about "right belief" as much as it is about relationship and response. I also believe strongly in grace. Am I perfect? No. But the God I have come to know in Jesus is a welcoming and inclusive God and there is much condemnation expressed towards the arrogance in exclusivity of the Pharisees who think they "fully get it" when no one else does. I very much look forward to realizing my heavenly reward and joining you and Gandhi at the Grand Banquet Table. Thank you for your concern.
10:40 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Ahh Diane ,
So glad you cleared up all that for everyone. So, you're right and everyone who's beliefs differ from your interpretation is not a Christian AND on the Hellbound express.
Must be nice to be so enlightened..
With all due respect, or at least what I can muster....Horse puckey!
If someone claims to be a Christian , they are. YOUR definition or interpretation is not the only one. They could even claim YOU have it wrong and arent a true Christian by their definitions
You guys cant even agree on a version of your Holy Book..
Patrick Chandler
10:53 am on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Grant, while many of my fellow Christians would not agree, it is not, in my opinion, about the agreements or disagreements about the Holy Book (I agree there is disagreement and that the BOOKS often contradict one another and with good reason), but the Holy and Sacred story and Presence the collection points us towards. There is a big difference. The irony to me is that some create a false idol of Scripture - something clearly forbidden in the story. Funny, isn't it?
Karsten Torch
1:35 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Wow. Grant, what she states is the case according to the New Testament. You know, that silly little bunch of writings that pertains to Jesus? The one that actually says everything that she said. So, technically, she IS right, the only way to God is through Jesus. Not through good works. Or just because you feel like you are due a better afterlife for whatever reason. It's not HER definition of Christian, it's the Bible's. Which, last I checked, was the ultimate authority on the subject. Unless, of course, you know something we don't.....
David Leader
12:27 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
And most Of the founding fathers were, at their largest, Diests; and those such as Jefferson were believed to be full-on atheists. The mormon church is no more weird than most churches, more sane even than Catholic. But who cares about religion, the key is their ability to lead. Seriously, do you actually believe that Gingrich is now a "strict catholic" after all of his past wrongdoings? No, he says it because there is an assumption that without Christianity you have no chance of winning an election.
12:55 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
What ever happened to keeping politics and religion separate??
I think people should be elected on their ability to do the job. Religion shouldn't even be on their application!! The way it currently stands you cant even run for office if you don't have a religion...that is ludacris!!! I would like to see someone with no religious ties run for office...after all religion has only caused wars over the years!! Lets get real!!
1:56 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Which Bible ? The Mormon's also have "a bible" ... Are you suggesting that one collection of old campfire stories compiled hundreds of years after any of the events are rumored to have occurred is somehow "more authoritative" than some other , different collection of old campfire stories?
Again , there is no "authority" on who is doing it right. Different factions have different beliefs and they have been killing each other over it for centuries..all in the name of "peace and love"
Jesus is also reputed to have said , if indeed He existed at all "Love thy neighbor as thy self"
I've read that passage in several versions of Bibles and have yet to see it followed by an asterisk excluding one group or the other as so many religions tend to do ..
Marne M
2:03 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
To say that religion has only caused wars is patently false. The Catholic Church, for example, is the world's largest charitable institution. Christian churches run hospitals, universities, parochial schools, soup kitchens, clinics, and shelters throughout the United States. And atheists are equally capable of starting wars and committing atrocities -- we have some fine examples in Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.
Even conservative estimates state that 80% of the world believes in some sort of higher power. So it's natural that we look to the belief system of the people that we put in power. I don't make decisions based only on a person's religious beliefs -- I didn't vote for Gingrich in the primary, for example, even though he and I are both Catholic. But I'd have to think long and hard before voting for an atheist, and be assured that they were going to respect the values and beliefs of the other 80% of the world.
Religion gives us a lens by which we can better understand a person and their beliefs. It's not the only lens. There are "good" and "bad" members of every world religion. But it's A lens, and an important one.
Marne M
2:09 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
To be clear -- I'm not arguing that those particular leaders fought in the name of atheism, merely that religion isn't required for horrible human beings to act like horrible human beings.
5:38 pm on Tuesday, July 10, 2012
sounds like your not giving respect to those who don't believe the same as you! typical of the religious followers...i say think what you want but don't push it on others!! Are you trying to start yet another war?Read your history books and you'll find religion is almost always the root of the problems...and whether you believe in religion or not should not determine whether you can run the country...how ridiculous!!!!!
Marne M
5:54 pm on Tuesday, July 10, 2012
Where did I say that I have no respect for atheists? I consider a great many things when I'm going to vote. Is the person a Conservative or a Liberal? What is their fiscal policy? Do they have a strong ethical history? Are they, for lack of a better term, a jerk? I look at the entirety of their platform and personality. If I feel that a person is going to be disrespectful and antagonistic to the 80% of people who are religious or spiritual in some manner or another, then that's going to be a red flag. It's a completely reasonable response -- people vote based on their conscience all the time, as is their right.
I might or might not vote for an atheist. I simply said I'd have to think about it, and be convinced that they were going to represent me (or my town, my region, my country, etc.) in a manner that I found appropriate. There is absolutely nothing "ridiculous" about it. I wouldn't vote for a liberal either, but that doesn't mean I don't respect the approximately half of the country who would.
12:40 am on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
you keep saying atheists! you sound like you are a labler! I doubt 80% of the people are religious in this day in age...many are followers or pretenders because they are scared to offend you!!! I was raised a catholic because my parents didn't want to offend there parents...I thought for myself and came to my own conclusions...i think more people should try thinking for themselves and stop following the crowd! We need a leader that knows business!! PS. I am by far a kinder person to my fellow human beings and animals than any religious person claims to be...I wish you well!
Marne M
1:07 am on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
Yes, I can see that you're a regular bastion of tolerance, what with you insulting a large chunk of the population as being too afraid or too ignorant to think for themselves, as opposed to actually addressing the argument. And adding, "I wish you well" is a nice touch -- sort of like saying, "bless your heart" after you've finished trashing someone. You can keep your version of tolerance, thank you, as your words certainly don't bear out the actions that you claim. I will continue to vote my conscience, with or without regard to someone's religion, as I see fit.
2:46 am on Thursday, July 12, 2012
wow that was rather rude...you don't have to be religious to have a voice.
I guess you don't understand me. Sorry if you took offense. It was okay for you to say that 80% of the people belive as you do...maybe that is insulting those that dont.
BTW, i really did mean that I wish you well. I don't say one thing and mean another.
I wish everyone could just be happy! Unfortunately it seems that too many people are trying to find faults with everyone else. Its a shame!
Brian Crawford
2:13 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
So to pull us back on track, after listening to this wonderful discussion and reading some fresh viewpoints on Mormonism, I'm standing by my original assertion that Mormons are not a Christian denomination. Not saying they're bad people or damned to perdition. Just not Christian. So my question still stands; does it matter? It's obvious that those who don't feel bound by religious convictions could care less. I'm interested in knowing what some of our more religious regular contributors think so I'm calling you out. Ben Cathy, Ray Newman, Jason Brooks, Jeffrey Allen? Where are you guys? I know you read this stuff. Ray, the Southern Baptist Convention says Romney's not a Christian. Do you stand behind that? Does he have your endorsement?
Robyn Weidler
2:25 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
I am a Christian. I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. People commonly refer to us as "Mormons". Some of the preceeding comments about our faith are true, but most are not. If you want to know what Mormons believe, you can chat with a Mormon on www.mormon.org or you welcome to come and worship with us. Services are held on Sundays at 9:00 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. at 1080 Julian Dr., Watkinsville.
Brian Crawford
2:40 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Thanks for the comment and the kind invitation. I've had many chats with Mormons over the years and have good friends within the Mormon community who I greatly admire, I just disagree completely with Mormon theology. One of the reasons this is so hard to talk about is because the last thing I want to do is offend good folks like you. But as you know, there are many significant differences between Mormon beliefs and say Methodists or Catholics.
Karsten Torch
3:17 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Brian, this is actually a very good piece, and I see your dilemma here. Much the same dilemma I have with the subject, albeit for different reasons. Mormonism is, or so it seems to me, a cult. But, it is a Christian cult. Just not one I personally agree with. But not because I've had negative dealings with them.
For me, those dealings came with the Baptist and Catholic religions. Baptist, because when I was younger and visited the local big Baptist church, the most vocal members against drinking (which I still don't see referenced as being bad in the Bible) were the ones getting popped for DUI every weekend. So, for a long time I just thought the entire church body was nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. For the Catholic church, and this is still a problem that I have with them, they seem to be run like a corporation, where the dollar seems more important than anything else. Married? Want to be divorced? Well, since the Catholic church doesn't recognize divorce, just throw enough money at the problem and get your marriage annulled. Problem solved.
But, this wouldn't enter my vision with regards to a candidate. Belief between you and your god is between you and your god. I wouldn't vote for a Muslim, but not because I don't like Allah, just because there's things in the Koran I have issues with. The problem with Obama was one of what kind of church and his pastor, and the fact he was so involved with Muslim groups as a child and younger man.
3:27 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Karsten ... Splendid of you to admit your religious bigotry honestly .Most folks would attempt to obfuscate that just a little.
I have my doubts as to your familiarity with the Koran but by all means please share those "things you have issues with "
I have to assume you "have issues with " slavery , rape, genocide,incest too? You maybe aware that most versions of the Bible are filled with this sort of stuff
4:56 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Great post and great discussion!
However, from my perspective, the primary issue that this post highlights is the double standards on these issues. If President Obama had the same history and connection with the Mormon church and had used that connection to avoid the Vietnam War, then undoubtedly, his political opponents would be on it like a dog on a bone--meaning, of course, that the press would be all over it as well. But in Romney's case, crickets.
I couldn't care less about either Romney or Obama's faith, or the lack thereof. It does, however, bother me to see people paying attention to how much Obama attends church while ignoring the fact that Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 rarely, if ever, attended...as if any of it matters. In fact, some Christians make good presidents and others don't. I also have no doubt that some atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, and Mormons would make great presidents as well.
And yes, one's Vietnam record still matters. Romney--who has hired George. W. Bush's foreign policy advisers and has been beating the war drums for Iran since he started running--expressed support for the Vietnam war back in the day. He also let others fight it while getting deferments that allowed him to spend years in Europe brushing up on his French and trying to persuade people to join the Mormon church.
The Dish
5:33 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Yes, religion still matters.....especially here in the south.
I am a Christian and I attend a Baptist church. My church, and most Baptist churches, believes that Mormonism is a cult. That's what I think is so fascinating about this election. I haven't heard much of anything about Romney's religion from the right/conservative side. The right is usually good at attacking each other. What's going on here?
My theory........the conservative majority understands the importance of winning this election and refuses to be 'baited' on the issue of religion. It was obvious from the beginning, Mitt was going to be the nominee. Most people I know wish it would have been someone else, but it is what it is.
Bottom line: Conservatives would rather have a Mormon than the 'Christian' we are currently stuck with. I think that alone speaks volumes to the Religion debate.
Like I said, religion still matters......just looks like freedom and liberty will be a higher priority come November.
Brian Crawford
5:55 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
So then for you politics comes before religion? By the way, Obama's been in office almost 4 years and freedom and liberty are intact. I think we're okay.
Isley Adams
6:15 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
"looks like freedom and liberty will be a higher priority come November." - The Dish
Why do people always portray the president (usually of the opposing party, ironically) as a tyrant or dictator? President Obama, nor President Bush, took away the country's "freedom" or "liberty." It's amazing how many people act as if their party should be the only ones to hold political office, as if they represent the entire county or know what's best for the entire country. I do agree with you, The Dish, that the republicans' refusal to support their fellow Christian over a Morman, a religion many of them consider a cult (Liberty University, for example) does say a lot about the republican party, this election, and the political climate of this country. Yes, religion matters in politics. If it didn't, politicians wouldn't pronounce their devotion so strongly (Except, Mitt. He keeps his faith fairly quiet for the same reasons this blog was written.), republicans wouldn't paint Obama as a muslim, and people on this thread wouldn't express reservations about voting for an atheist. I think the only thing that may matter more to voters than a politician's religion is the one thing we aren't discussing on this thread. The one thing that makes Romney and his "cult" more palatable to conservatives than their fellow Christian alternative. The one thing that makes one candidate's foreign born father a non-issue, and the other's a reason to disqualify him. Hmmm... what could it be?
6:42 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
RE: "Yes, religion still matters...the conservative majority understands the importance of winning this election and refuses to be 'baited' on the issue of religion..."
This comment reinforces the previously mentioned double-standard. Many conservatives have no problem 'baiting' others on the issue of a candidate's religion when the candidate is with the other party. But when it comes to their own candidates, the subject is off limits.
The Dish
10:52 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Brian: Religion in general and my faith are two different things. But to answer your question, I refuse to take your liberal bait so you will not be getting your 'soundbite' from me.
Isley: Please enlighten us. What is "the one thing we aren't discussing on this thread"? At least Brian has the backbone to throw religion out there and debate it.
Brian Crawford
11:12 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Since you won't answer the question, Iet me summarize your previous statement. You believe that the majority of conservative Christians want to win so bad that they are willing to sell out their own Christian faith to vote for someone that they believe is a member and leader in a religious cult. Correct me if I'm wrong.
North Georgia Weather
11:15 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
The religion that someone brings to the table is not nearly as important to me as their moral character. Actions speak much louder than words in this case, at least for me.
Tammy Osier
6:14 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Brian has a point (did I say that?-lol). He has a point when he exercised his concern about whether Romney will insert his beliefs into government. Last I heard, we weren't at war with Mormons. We are at war with muslim countries (who are influenced by that thought) and BHO was raised as a muslim by a father who was a communist sympathizer. Talk about divided allegiance. The problem with some of that (when people say, Oh but he's a christian), is that there is a place where muslims are told that they can deceive if it's for Allah sake and kingdom. It made me really nervous when he became president since when the media didn't do any vetting, I did. And what I found was astounding. You become the company that you keep and his college years were spent with people who believed in Marxist thought.
I could be completely wrong about him, but many of his decisions have gone the wayside of our constitution and if the Keynesian economic system that he seems to be espousing comes full swing, our economic system as we know it could be destroyed. If our country falls, it will be very easy for another country to take us down. Actually, we might be able to destroy it from within ourselves before that happens.
Isley Adams
6:31 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
President Obama met his father twice. When he was born and once when he was ten. I'd say that hardly qualifies as being raised by a Muslim. So you believe President Obama attended a Christian church for over twenty years all in an effort to "deceive for Allah?" Then he planned to become president and ruin the country? Wow. And what's this about him not being vetted? You do know he was in congress before running for president, right? You know they vet people, too, right? I'd say he is probably the most thoroughly vetted president we've ever had because of people constructing conspiracy theories like you just presented. And this is coming from a guy WHO DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM! What is it about President Obama that makes me people fear the worst? Hmmmm... What is it about him that makes people refuse to believe anything other than unsubstantiated fear mongering? Hmmm.... What is it about him that makes people say he not or may not be "one of us?" Hmmm...I wonder what it is?
6:57 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
RE: "We are at war with muslim countries...there is a place where muslims are told that they can deceive if it's for Allah sake..."
No. We're not at war with Muslim countries. We're at war WITHIN one Muslim country, fighting alongside Muslim allies to defeat radicals...radicals to their faith in much the same way that the KKK or David Koresh or Eric Rudolph are radicals to Christians.
And with one horribly misinformed comment (i.e., Muslims are told they can deceive), one tragically misinformed individual dismisses a beautiful faith, shared by millions of peaceful and decent people from around the world...a faith that, incidentally, shares it's foundation with Judaism and Christianity.
Brian Crawford
7:35 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
The problem with all of that Tammy is you hear all this stuff on TV or read it on your computer or hear it from Rush and you think, "Why this must be true because they're real American patriots just like me." But it's not and they're not. They're filling your head full of garbage so they can pick your pocket. I wish you could see that.
Tammy Osier
7:06 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
To answer Brian Crawford original question, "why is Romney getting a pass?" I think it's because people now have an "anybody but Obama" attitude. They didn't at first. At first, people had a big aversion to him when he was simply running. NOw, I think its purely political. I think you might agree with that. I think that's the only reason. It does surprise me that the media has given him a pass. Very unusual, to be honest. The media is fickle, I guess.
IA - I've not heard anybody say he's not one of us. First time I've heard that term. I think maybe it would be because of many anti-american sentiments that he's espoused. People oppose far left policies because they are so socialist in nature. Marxism and kenesian economics always look good on paper but in reality don't work. That's why our country is in the shape its in. It simply doesn't work in reality.
Brian Crawford
7:29 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
This is a bit off tack but...I suppose you could say Obama is Marxist/Socialist, but then he would be the worst Marxist/Socialist in the history of the world. Under his watch corporate profits are at an all time high, government spending is relatively flat, the private sector has added over 4,000,000 jobs, government has shed over 800,000 jobs, CEOs are paid like rock stars (better actually), the stock market is booming and the rich are making out like the bandits they are. You might say Obama sucks at this Socialism stuff.
Tammy Osier
7:35 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
My original point was to make the point that it might matter if you went to an islamic school when you were a kid in Indonesia and we are at war with countries on that side of the world. There might be sympathy towards the enemy. Not saying it is, but it would make a difference (worst case scenario) if you sided against our allies (the strain with Israel now is a good point).
But the bottom line is that many can say they are this and they are that (whatever faith they claim) and as my daddy always said, 'it's not what you say but what you do". A person's record of the good should outweigh the bad (all entitled to mistakes as long as they are learned from). A person of devout faith usually is humble, not haughty. Reagan was a man like that.
Brian Crawford
7:39 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Reagan was an actor. He spent most of his life in Hollywood.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:57 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
NOT just Washington DC ...
Isley Adams
7:38 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
You've never heard anyone say he's not one of us? Refusing to accept a birth certificate is saying he's not one of us. Your statement about him working undercover for Allah is saying he's not one of us. What else could it mean? I've never heard anything "anti-American" from the president. Not agreeing with him doesn't make him "anti-American." socialism is a part of America. Sorry. Public schools, roads, parks, police, fire departments, etc. I find it interesting that once Gingrich paints the President as a kenesian economist, suddenly the term is used by everyone. Dis Clinton practice kenesian economics? Cause that's what President Obama wants to return to and the economy was humming.
Tammy Osier
7:51 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
I didn't say he was personally working undercover for allah- I was making an exaggerated point that if someone was the faith of our enemies then they could (hypothetically) become an enemy of our country. taken to the umphed degree, it would matter what they believed.
Clinton ended up with a very good economy when he got a majority republican house and senate and was smart enough to move the the center with them. Clinton was a smart man in that respect. I learned about Keynesian economics in college many years ago and it was easy to see liberal policies resembling it closely.
Brian - Reagan was also a governor (as opposed to a senator who had only been on the job for 3 months) and became a very good president. That talking point won't hunt. If you go there, then we'll have to judge everyone else by their earlier years and liberals would scream pretty loud if we judged by that criteria. Reagan eventually matured into a well respected, humble man and governed well.
Brian Crawford
8:23 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Small correction, Obama was a US Senator for 3 years before being elected President, not 3 months.
Tammy Osier
7:52 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
The "pick you pocket" reply got me there. I kind of think tax and spend tax and spend tax some more nad spend some more does a good job of picking my pocket thank you.
Brian Crawford
8:20 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
You do realize Obama has cut your taxes several times since taking office don't you?
Isley Adams
8:10 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
President Obama has tried to to work with republicans, but they refuse. They even turn against policy the created, like the individual mandate. President Obama is not the radical "lefty" conservatives paint him as. If he were, liberals wouldn't be so upset him (extending the Bush tax cuts, for example). Reagan would not make it out of the primary now-a-days. He was in favor of the policies you call liberal. He was a staunch supporter of the social safety net. He RAISED taxes. He RAISED the debt ceiling multiple times. He expanded the federal government. He restructured the tax code so the poor don't pay income tax. Conservatives love to harp on that, yet they never attribute it to Reagan. He was a liberal by today's conservative standards. Conservatives seem to edit history when they speak of Reagan. So, Tammy, do you think conservatives should run all branches of government because conservative policies are so much better than liberal policies?
8:46 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Religion is such a divisive topic, as evidenced by the responses here. I will absolutely go on record as saying that organized religion is a force of evil in society the world over, anyone stating the contrary is not willing to look at the history of organized religion and the great crimes they have committed in the name of their religion. I know many religious people who I respect a great deal, but I always fail to understand why they will give money to their organizations even when they acknowledge what that organization is using the money for. There are usually justifications that their church helps the poor and down on their luck, which are worthy causes; but some of that money goes to sanction child rape, misogyny, bigotry, racism, murder, and many other evils. If your church has an affiliation with ANY higher organization and sends ANY of your money to that denomination, then you are tacitly supporting these ends EVEN if you do not personally believe in them.
Harry Dorfman
11:20 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
This thread has gotten old and tiring...but for anyone that wants to get a response out of the locals make a note - religion. Who really cares what people think about religion. If u like it you like it and if you think it is a big piece of fiction then roll with that. Maybe some of this effort can be focused of the screw job we are being presented by the new, expanded City of Peachtree Corners/glorified HOA
Brian Crawford
5:18 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Sorry Harry, before you tune out...good luck with the Peachtree Corners HOA!
11:51 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Brian.....Your arrogance and willingness to filter other's beliefs through your own is appalling.....The Mormons claim to be Christian, believe they follow Christ but apparently dont do it to your satisfaction so you ignore the Scripture you find so compelling and pass your Judgement upon them?
Wow,must be nice to be so enlightened as to be able to rise above your own scripture while attempting to judge others who follow a different book by violating your own.
That my friend is some serious derp.
I look forward to your Romney Birther Diatribe as I am sure it's apt to be just as well developed and intelligent.
1:55 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
This is exactly why our four fathers made the constitution the way they did. Church and State should be kept appart. When we look at history and Church gets involved in the State, later it becomes corrupt. My step father was a Mormon. He was a wonderful, wonderful husband to my mom. The reason Christians are so defensive about Mormons being called Christian, because "The Bible" was written by at least 66 authors over hundreds of years apart. "The Mormon Bible" founded by 1 man, Joseph Smith, who saw and angel, and then his followers made a correction Bible. Christian Bible talks about the Virgin Mary, Jesus Christ giving His life for us for our sins, etc. The Mormons believe that Mary slept with God and that He was a man before, which is a Big no,no for Christians how can the Creator who calls us His Children have sex with Mary? And Jesus Christ, God in the flesh and God's only Son, who died for peoples sins...the Mormon's believe,There are many Gods. Brigham Young-Journal of Discourses 7:333 "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods. They also believe that Satan "Lucifer" is Jesus Christ's full brother. For Christians to say Mormon's are Christian, it's like your child having a sickness that you know has a cure but they won't take there medicine. And Mormon's for the Christian's they feel the same. Hope this is helpful.
North Georgia Weather
7:57 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
You all get that Brian is just trolling and trying to incite the masses don't you.
Good job Brian! ;-) It worked!
John B
8:45 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Yes to your first question...no to it worked. Now awaiting for a pro-life/abortion debate. C'mon Brian...don't dissapoint me.
Brian Crawford
8:51 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Steve, why is it that anytime someone makes a legitimate point or raises a legitimate question about your side, conservatives accuse them of trolling?
Isley Adams
11:03 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
The Dish- I refuse to take your conservative bait and point out the obvious issue many conservatives have with President Obama. At least I have the backbone to use my real name.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:15 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Maybe you're not as smart as you think...
Talking Politics at Work: Not So 'Free Speech' Says Midtown Attorney
A recent study showed that 35 percent of bosses openly share their political views with employees. Another study by the AFL-CIO concluded that 8 percent of employees believe that it would be illegal for their employers to terminate them for engaging in political expression at work.
"In reality, that 8 percent of employees are wrong, and their bosses may be violating company policy too," Stewart said in a news release.
So, how can so many employees hold such a wrong opinion about their speech rights?
"The answer is a lack of understanding about the constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and of the protection of employee speech under the National Labor Relations Act," she said.
12:13 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Brian Crawford writes
"Since you won't answer the question, Iet me summarize your previous statement. You believe that the majority of conservative Christians want to win so bad that they are willing to sell out their own Christian faith to vote for someone that they believe is a member and leader in a religious cult. Correct me if I'm wrong."
many of them were willing to vote for Newt "family values" Gingrich..
I'd love to believe that the majority of "Christians" on either side realized that their religious beliefs apply only to their own lives and that others may have different beliefs and it's really nobody elses business..
But that's just silly..
I do think that there are those intelligent enough to vote based on real presidential issues as opposed to who has the best invisible friend.
Brian Crawford
2:58 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Hey Grant guess what, my invisible friend loves you...hahaha.
3:15 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Brian Crawford write
"Hey Grant guess what, my invisible friend loves you...hahaha."
Splendid...MY invisible friend is DELICIOUS!
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:40 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Now that Romney has now been appropriately "Kennedy-ed" at this point.
We can now we conclude this discussion with the Kennedy Nixon election of 1960, information from TIME magazine. Seems we really can go "Back to the Future" through an eerie link with today as "Executive Privilege" has just been claimed by our president for items outside his office.
To what extent do you believe the religious issue may influence the results of the election? Do you agree with Sen. Henry Jackson that, although Vice President Nixon keeps saying he doesn't want religion discussed, others with the Republican Party are pushing the issue?
John F. Kennedy:
I hope that religion will not have any effect upon the election. The constitutional provision that there shall be "no religious test for office" is wise, and I am hopeful that the American people will agree. As to the next part of the question, I would agree that the leaders of the Republican Party have indicated that they did not want religion discussed. I have no personal knowledge concerning the activities of others in the Republican Party on this issue.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:41 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Across the American political landscape, the hot light flickered like the glow of revivalist campfires. The religious issue in the '60 Presidential campaign simply could not be snuffed out. For every statement intended to douse it, another set the blaze flaring again. The burning topic was on the lips of past and present occupants of the White House, and preoccupied both men who hope to be the next tenant; it was tossed back and forth by leaders of the nation's religious thought—some of whom has now become embroiled in politics.
Political figures, generally, took the approach that it was a pity to inject the religious issue; but the other fellows were doing it. Former President Truman hurled these bitter words at Republican nominee Richard Nixon: "While he stands at the front door proclaiming charity and tolerance, his supporters are herding the forces of racial, religious, and anti-union bigotry in by way of the back door." He had no doubt, Mr. Truman added, that Nixon knows "what is going on."
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
12:44 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Rebuttal: From another big name in Protestant churchdom came a sharp retort. "Dr. Peale and his associates … show blind prejudice," said Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr, vice chairman of New York's pro-Kennedy Liberal Party. And Dr. John C. Bennett, dean of Union Theological Seminary, joined Dr. Niebuhr, calling religious opposition to Kennedy "a kind of Protestant underground."
With unintentional timing, one more powerful Protestant voice was raised. The Presbyterian Outlook, the unofficial but accepted organ of 4 million members of that denomination, came out with a fervent editorial calling upon Americans to choose "the best available leader, whether he be, in this case, Quaker [Nixon's faith] or Roman Catholic."
Catholic John Kennedy himself reiterated his position more forcefully than ever. "The Constitution," he told a press conference in Burbank, "is very clear on the separation of church and state. I have been clear and precise in my commitments to that Constitution, not merely because I take the oath which is taken to God, but also because I believe that it represents the happiest arrangement for the organization of a society. Therefore I believe in that theory … just as strongly as Dr. Peale of anyone else."
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
1:00 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
@Brian seems you may wish to touch base with your OWN church a little more
Presbyterian Outlook, the unofficial but accepted organ of 4 million members of that denomination, came out with a fervent editorial calling upon Americans to choose "the best available leader, whether he be, in this case, Quaker [Nixon's faith] or Roman Catholic."
Brian Crawford
3:09 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
I don't know R, I think the parallels to Kennedy are thin at best. The Democratic Party was not controlled by evangelicals at the time. The differences between Catholics and Protestants weren't as pronounced in America as they were in parts of Europe. I was too young to vote but I know my parents and most of their Protestant friends voted for Kennedy. They didn't view the Catholic church as a cult. I think the issue was much bigger in the press than with the average voter.This seems a bigger leap to me.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
3:24 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
@ Brian
This just may show how much you may appear to "have in common" with those you oft accuse of being closed minded.
If you are brighter than JFK and the leaders of your OWN church, GOOD LUCK with that. It appears though, maybe some others are more progressive than you after all. ( or at least actually learn from history)
Tammy Osier
2:05 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
How about this - judge a man by what he does and let the constitution be the guide of his decisions. That way, when a president goes outside those parameters, we can hold him accountable to what our framers espoused as a docment that has proven itself for over 200 years.
2:22 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Tammy...did you forget your asterisk ?
I think you meant it to read
"How about this - judge a man by what he does and let the constitution be the guide of his decisions * "
* Does not apply to Muslims
2:42 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
RE: "* Does not apply to Muslims"
Such religious bigotry is insulting, ignorant, and hateful. That somebody would proudly post such a "joke" is disappointing, to say the least.
Tammy Osier
2:48 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Not I didn't forget anything Grant. We actually have many muslims on our side working to help us understand what we're up against in the war on terror. They have a good track record for being pro-american. In the case of Obama, I might pause if I knew that he was hanging arouind and schooled by all of the anti-american radicals that he was known to keep company with (one responsible for blowing up government buildings and would do it again). That comes up under the "what he does" category. At that point, his beliefs do guide him in his actions and would definately give me pause. Same as an abortion clinic bomber would. I concluded (after all this discussion) that faith alone means nothing, but add to it what he's done, which should give an indication as to what he may do in the future.
Tammy Osier
6:16 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Chris, I stop posting on here when people start making things up. Grant is the only one with a right to an opinion. I have a big problem with terrorists using their religion to blow up other people, that's as far as it goes. I vote accordingto party idelogy.
I don't pick apart other people's beliefs as you will note that Grant does. You should have a greater problem with his disrespectful prejudice of people's faith referring to their "invisible friends". Yet, I can't say that it would bother me if someone were influenced by a belief system when we are at war with that same belief. Seems to be a conflict of interest that could possibly be dangerous. People are entitiled to their beliefs but to make fun of them crosses several lines. Grant, you need to be careful when you talk about people's "history". You border on slandering someone's reputation and I thinking Sharon might have a problem with that kind of line crossing. I know I do.
Sharon Swanepoel
7:10 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Please remember to be respectful - this is for a healthy exchange of ideas not personal attacks. Please refer to our terms of use.
Sharon Swanepoel
8:58 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Please, let's not make this personal. It's a discussion on subject matter, not individual people.
Patty Burgess
12:31 pm on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
Sharon, I'm afraid you have your hands full with this thread!
Gail Moore
1:06 pm on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
I think we should now move on to Intelligent Design ... in school ... LOL!
9:08 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Tammy writes
"judge a man by what he does and let the constitution be the guide of his decisions."
I completely agree with that statement .
Not to get too personal but since the topic is "Does Religion Matter"
Can you honestly say you would vote for a Muslim presidential candidate Tammy?
North Georgia Weather
9:19 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Can't take any chances Grant. I say no. And it's based on observations, not pre-conceived ideas or notions. We are the infidels according to them.
10:27 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Who is "them"? All Muslims? Are you sure about that? How many do you know? There's no disagreement among Muslims about how to interpret the Qu'ran? If all Muslims think alike, the isn't it logical for "them" to take the position that all Christians think alike, and therefore we are all no better than the worst acts of the Irish Republican Army, the KKK, or the likes Eric Rudolph and David Koresh?
By the way, where in the Qur'an does it say that "we" are "infidels"? The worst thing to do with the Qur'an is seek confirmation for what one already believes in and turning a blind eye to any evidence that is inconsistent with his/her preconceived attitudes and biases. Anyone can find in the Qur'an whatever he/she wants to prove. Anyone can do the same thing with the Bible. Some members of society have used the Bible and still use it to justify all kinds of heinous acts (including slavery, discrimination, and war).
And incidentally, don't many, if not most, Christians believe that all non-Christians will literally burn in hell for eternity, no matter how they lived their lives? In other words, don't Christians believe that all non-Christians are, by definition, infidels?
Patty Burgess
10:05 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
"Since you won't answer the question, Iet me summarize your previous statement. You believe that the majority of conservative Christians want to win so bad that they are willing to sell out their own Christian faith to vote for someone that they believe is a member and leader in a religious cult. Correct me if I'm wrong."
How about the millions of non-Christians who vote in every election? Are the Pagans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc, selling out their our faiths because they are voting for someone of another faith? Or, perhaps they are simply voting for the person whose political beliefs most closely match their own and leaving the religious aspect out of it all together. You know....that whole separation of church and state thing in action.
Brian Crawford
11:41 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Let my try to clarify my position. For years the evangelical right has controlled our political agenda by using their faith as a cudgel to deny rights to homosexuals, subvert women's access to reproductive healthcare, and wage holy wars. They have done all of this in the name of Christ. They have insisted on a litmus test for our elected officials that includes all of this in addition to sharing their core Christian beliefs.
They are now faced with a candidate for President that they have publicly claimed is a non-Christian because of his Mormon faith. Many of them believe he is a member of a cult. What to do, what to do.
The Mormon church claims moral superiority over historical Christians (as well as everyone else) and that their church is the one true church. They claim they are Christian because they follow the teachings of Christ and yet they include teachings from texts that any other Christian would not view as sacred.
I am not claiming moral superiority over anyone.
11:59 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Brian ...
Apparently you are new to "conservative hypocrisy".. Keep in mind these are the people who were willing to listen to Newt Gingrinch speak on "the sanctity of marriage" or to hear Santorum rail on against abortions in any case (unless it was HIS wife), and those that believe banning things and denying people rights is equivalent to more freedom
Welcome to Earth !
Now that Romneybot is "their guy" he will be anointed as the savior . Any concerns about his Mormon faith that these folks raised during the primary season will be hidden away quicker that Marcus Bachmann's true sexual orientation .
Of course you pulling a page out of their playbook remains inexcusable , a man's personal beliefs are his own and should remain above reproach.
Patty Burgess
12:28 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Brian, as I see it you are now dividing Christians into groups, some of which are morally superior to others because they don't deny rights to homosexuals, subvert women's access to reproductive healthcare or wage holy wars. You see your form of Christianity as superior based on those criteria....Moderate Christians good, Evangelical Christians, not as good. Also, you say that Mormons claim there church as the one true church. Well, isn't that exactly what Christians do? You say that one cannot hope to achieve paradise except through Jesus Christ (i.e., the
Christian church) and that must mean that Christianity is the one true religion.
Christians do not view the Qu'ran or the Torah as sacred texts either, ergo Jews and Muslims are members of cults. I'm really sorry to say this, but you are claiming moral superiority and it's not only over Mormons but Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans and anyone else who doesn't accept your bible as their holy text.
Again, perhaps people are just trying to vote on political views and not on which Christian, and only a Christian, would make the best president.
Brian Crawford
1:28 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Patty, nowhere in any of this discussion have I indicated I think my religious views are superior to anyone else's, including Mormons. If you can quote something I've said that is otherwise I'll be happy to correct it.
10:17 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
So, to borrow Tammy's quote again
"judge a man by what he does and let the constitution be the guide of his decisions."
Doesnt apply to Muslims according to you NGW? Wow
FWIW The Christian Bible calls folks like me all sorts of names , deceiver, antichrist, INFIDEL(2 Cor.6:14-17) and even calls for it's followers to stone me to death (Dt.13:6-10 )
So, by your "cant take any chances " "logic" I should never vote for a Christian?
See how that works?
10:26 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Love it, Grant. You're absolutely right.
I can't wait for the day that we can elect a non-theist president, America would be much better off. My grand-children will still be paying for Bush and Cheney's holy war, if they survive that long. And for those of you who support Obama, I challenge you to list 5 major acts of legislation in his last three years that have varied from Bush's policies.
Brian Crawford
10:57 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
1. The Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
2. The Affordable Care Act (or Obamacare if you like)
3. The Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act
4, The Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010
5. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act
There are others as well...
10:22 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Amazed you went "there" I made the comment that I would not vote for him because he is a Mormon. Then Obama opened the door for illegal aliens and after telling the world he's a Christain he started waving his flag for gay rights.... we all know this is for votes but still.
I am no longer a republician though I have voted for them my all my voting life, they don't speak for me anymore. The democrats seem to be a bunch of crazed Hollywood types. There really isn't any one for me to vote for.
Sharon Swanepoel
10:41 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
OK Brian, you said you were still trying to sort out your feelings and asked to be "helped out here." So after 130 plus responses the big question is, have you been helped out here? :)
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
10:52 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Not being much of a betting man here, but I think it will take until somewhere Nov 2012...
11:00 am on Friday, June 22, 2012
Diana writes
"Then Obama opened the door for illegal aliens and after telling the world he's a Christain he started waving his flag for gay rights"
You are aware it is possible to be a Christian and in favor of gay Rights arent you Diana?
Does they phrase "Love thy neighbor as thyself " have any meaning for you ?
9:04 am on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
Are you aware that you can love a person but not their actions? My point was Obama will say or do anything for a vote.
Grant you are aware that the Bible teaches homosexuality is wrong do you not? Or are you one of those Christians that believes as long as you don't have to face any confrontation? So no Grant I do not believe it is possible to be in favor for gay rights and be a child of God.
10:25 am on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
I'm aware that there is an Old Testament verse in Leviticus (amongst a great many others that are summarily ignored) that seems to condemn homosexuality . Of course I'm told that the Old Testament laws were "lifted " by JC and do not apply any longer (though I can also find Scripture to dispute that "theory ). So that leaves with the "opinion" of a non divine individual named Paul , who , if he even actually existed was possibly a self loathing homosexual himself and some highly subject nonsense about "sexual immorality" so , even from a Biblical standpoint one could present a valid argument against your religious bigotry.
Personally I dont believe a collection of ancient camel herder campfire stories are grounds for hatred, bigotry or judgement of anyone .
For the record I'm not "one of those Christians", in fact I'm not a Christian at all . I dont believe in a god that would give us the most awesome "toys" in the world and expect us not to enjoy them and share them
Oscar G.
12:31 pm on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
Diana are you aware that Jesus in all the Gospels never had a thing to say about gays? Male or female? And that saying you "love the sinner, hate the sin" is nothing more than using a Get Out Of Jail Free card for bigots and hate mongers who misinterpret then hide behind Scripture?
The Christ was Pro Love. And anyone saying anything else, anything less, and I do mean anything other than, is speaking falsely of Christ and not a true follower of his teachings.
Brian Crawford
12:28 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Actually Sharon I've been helped out quite a bit. I've decided, for my self at least, this is all a good thing. I think religion shouldn't matter. Even though I don't view Romney as a Christian I could vote for him if I thought he wasn't a completely out of touch elitist who's policies would doom American to another decade of decline and set our social agenda back 50 years.
The best thing about this is that through their acquiescence to Romney's candidacy, win or lose, the evangelical arm of the Republican party (about 50% of them) which has controlled so much of our political agenda for so long, is ceding their religious authority on everything from abortion to LGBT rights. Their mere willingness to elect someone they consider non-Christian is enough to shut them up for decades.
A happy ending indeed!
Sharon Swanepoel
12:40 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
So glad Patch could be of assistance here Brian. :)
Chris Long
2:03 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Prior to the "Republican Revolution", the GOP had not held a majority in the House 4 decades. The GOP has only held the majority in the Senate approximately 3 decades out of the last 9. Additionally, the GOP has not held majorities in the majority of state legislatures in 5 decades, or a majority of gubernatorial posts in 2 decades. So in addition to saying that democrats are not religious, you are saying that they are completely incapable of influencing or setting policy...even when they are in complete charge. Thanks for the clarification...though none was really needed.
Brian Crawford
2:33 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Sorry Chris, I couldn't follow any of that. Were you responding to the right post? There are many religious democrats, in fact many, many good Christian democrats. I think the Democratic party has proved over and over that they are the more competent party for governance of all The People. As you pointed out, Republicans have controlled much of our government for the last 30 years and look what a mess we're in. Now they want to muck up the states as much as they have the federal government.
Chris Long
2:44 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Brian, of course you claim not to "follow any of that" b/c it hurts your "it's all the GOP's fault" narrative. It really is easy to follow though. You bash republicans wholesale & claim that the "evangelical arm of the Republican party (about 50% of them) which has controlled so much of our political agenda for so long". At first you didn't quantify what "so long" meant so I gave a general history lesson on the power split in this country over the last several decades…which shows that the democrats have largely been in charge at the state & federal level.
You later go on to specify that the GOP has been "controlled much of our government for the last 30 years", & claim that I point out this fact. I really don't know how you can make that stretch…or that you could think that true whether I said it or not. That just doesn't come close to being true.
Chris Long
2:45 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
At best for your argument things have been even over the last 30 years, but in actuality control is slightly tipped in favor of the dems over the last 30 years. & if you go back over the last 50 or 100 years, it's been overwhelmingly democrat. You see, if you look @ a breakdown of Congress & the presidency over the last 100 years, you'll notice a sea of blue, w/little bits of red strewn about (http://goo.gl/HGKFg). It's not even close.
You're a liberal who doesn't like republicans, fine, but don't pretend as if the democrats are our benevolent saviors. For every bad thing you could say about republicans (& most I'd probably agree w/you on), I could find an equal amount of bad things about democrats. Your assertion that the "mess we're in" is solely, or even largely, the GOP's fault is bogus. If we are in a mess, dems would be most to blame…unless, of course, you're saying that they were completely ineffectual when in power, allowing the minority party to control things, &/or that they made weak policies that the evil GOP could trash in just a few year's time.
Chris Long
3:01 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Back to your "last 30 years" claim. That would take us back 15 congressional sessions to the time of the 97th Congress (well, 15+ including this most current session…112). Here's how things break down over those 15 sessions. Both parties are even @ 2 sessions a piece where either party controlled both houses, as well as the presidency, but the democrats have held that distinction most recently (last session). Democrats have had complete control of both houses of Congress for 6 sessions (including the last 2) to the republican's 5, & Congress has been split 5 sessions. Democrats have held the House (where all the laws start) 9 sessions to the GOP's 7. Both parties are even in control of the Senate, but the democrats have held the Senate since 2007. As for the presidency, the republicans do hold the edge there 10 to 6. It would seem that the split of power over the last 30 years has been somewhat even, though slightly favored in the democrats direction. & if you go back any further the balance tilts HEAVILY toward the blue team. & you're positing that the "religious right", a minority w/in a minority, has been driving our politics? Riiiiiiiight. You may want to come up w/another argument.
Chris Long
3:01 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Over this 30 year timespan you may want to blame Reagan, but he had to deal w/a split congress, or a fully democrat congress, so they share any blame you may want to throw Reagan's way. You may want to praise Clinton, but he had to work w/a fully republican congress for most of his terms, so any praise you want to give Clinton, you must also give the GOP. & you may want to praise Obama, but he had complete control of Congress for his first 2 years & they couldn't even agree on, among other things, his signature "affordable" health care legislation. Even w/both houses of Congress & the presidency on lock, it took forever for them to pass what should have been a slam dunk. They were so ineffective that they had to blame the GOP…even though the GOP was powerless to stop anything the dems wanted to do @ the time. Now, you could, & probably will make an argument that "it's all Bush's fault", but you would be grossly oversimplifying the situation that caused the economy to tank, & ignoring previous democrat policies that helped the economy tank. There is enough blame to go around for everything to stain both parties. So, again, your "GOP messed everything up", & "democrats are the only people who can save us" message just doesn't work…not in the least.
Chris Long
3:13 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
As for the "religious right" & them having to shut up for decades b/c they are silent on Romney, give us all a break. Those in the "religious right" that have a problem w/Romney's faith are on record, & they've never made it a secret. They had their say in the primaries. Of course, you're ignoring the fact that not all in the "religious right" shunned Romney…he did come away w/a portion of that vote in the primaries. Those who had a problem w/Romney's faith singlehandedly kept a nobody like Santorum in the lead group for the GOP nomination for a long time, but in the end they lost. Romney was chosen as the party's nominee, & now party members are coalescing behind Romney. This is nothing new, & there is nothing wrong w/it. Much the same way that Hilary voters bashed Obama, but ultimately voted for him in the general election.
I'm glad that this thread ultimately devolved from the guise of a thoughtful discussion on religious prejudices into the open GOP bashing party it was meant to be. I thought the whole thing extremedy transparent, & that ultimately proved true. Discussions are so much better when they're honest. On to other things now...
Brian Crawford
6:29 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Chris, thanks for that well thought out rebuttal. I will be the first to admit that sometimes I get a bit over zealous in my defense of Liberalism and disgust with the Republican agenda. Part of that stems from the fact that around these parts I'm a little drop of blue in a sea of red but much of it comes from the amount of misinformation that I'm bombarded with from my conservative friends and their constant portrayal of Liberals as Godless Socialists.. And I don't hate Republicans, just most of their policies. It's that whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing.
Chris Long
12:34 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
I am not one to defend republicans, as I am not one & they are often indefensible, but it's particularly comical to listen democrats, who are just as bad (if not worse) act as if they have any sort of moral or ethical superiority over republicans. They're all the same disgusting political animals--there really is not a dime's worth of difference between them. They are all bank rolled by the same corporations, & the right's religious arm, as well as the left's union arm, both run & act just like corporations. Neither party, nor its politicians (w/VERY, VERY few exceptions...of which Obama & Romney are not) are looking out for any of us. Supporters of either side can easily match the other bad example & talking point for bad example & talking point, so fighting over which is less deplorable is a sad, mind-numbing joke. & quite honestly, most of you that are arguing here aren't going to change your minds anyway, so why bother?
1:49 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
RE: "They're all the same...Neither party, nor its politicians are looking out for any of us..."
Independents and swing voters scare me the most. Anybody who can't tell the difference between Democrats and Republicans should, in my view, stay away from the voting booth.
Incidentally, primary voters should also be able to tell the differences among progressive Democrats (e.g., Sherrod Brown), moderate Democrats (e.g., President Obama), Blue Dog Democrats (e.g., David Scott), moderate Republicans (e.g. ???) and Tea Party Republicans (e.g., Jim DeMint). Again, if you you can't distinguish the differences between how your candidates will vote, govern, and impact your families lives, then I beg you, stay home on election day.
Chris Long
2:21 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Chris, spoken like a true extremist. If you really think there is much of a difference between most candidates, regardless of party, then perhaps you should follow your own advice and steer clear of the voting booth. Also, don't pretend that the democrat party is chock full of diverse viewpoints...moderate democrats are an endangered species, & every last blue dog was replaced by a republican in 2010. Thanks for calling David Scott a blue dog though...I needed a good laugh today.
2:30 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
David Scott is and has always been a member of the Blue Dog Congressional Caucus, co-sponsored the Fair Tax, and has voted against numerous pieces of legislation supported by progressives and for numerous pieces of legislation supported by Republicans.
You have proven my point.
Chris Long
3:18 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Chris, I'm a member of a gym, but I never go. In keeping w/the religious topic, many people are members of churches, but rarely go (unless to be seen, or on important occasions). Membership in any entity does not necessarily determine presence or adherence. As for your claims re: the FairTax, Scott does not support it (http://goo.gl/CCzt0), & he's on record in his last campaign slamming his opponent for her support of it (http://goo.gl/Xe1RC). But for the sake of argument, I'll concede you Scott. Still doesn't change the make up of the democrat party. Labeling the GOP extreme & not applying the same label to the dems either means that you aren't aware, or you're just as extreme & cannot notice it.
5:22 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Chris L.,
Thanks for the correction on David Scott's position on the FairTax. I actually read the bill years ago and thought I had seen him listed among the co-sponsors. I apologize for the mistake.
Again, the point is that there are real and important difference between the parties and within the parties. The notion that all politicians are the same and none benefit the country seems to imply that it doesn't matter who we vote for. It does matter, and again, those who feel that way should either get informed or stay home on election day.
For the record, I'm not sure how the ability to identify Blue Dog Democrats, who actually exist (http://ross.house.gov/BlueDog/), but the inability to identify a moderate Republican in Congress (see article below) makes one extremist, but if you say so.
"It is clear that the center of gravity in the Republican Party has shifted sharply to the right. Its once-legendary moderate and center-right legislators in the House and the Senate — think Bob Michel, Mickey Edwards, John Danforth, Chuck Hagel [, Dick Lugar] — are virtually extinct."
4:44 am on Monday, June 25, 2012
What we really need is a three-party system so that the extremes don't win out and polarity isn't used to control us. However, our current voting system doesn't support that. There are about a dozen other voting systems intentionally designed to support a three-party system. They are listed on Wikipedia.
Bill Tayler
1:14 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
I'm a Mormon. I believe in God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. Jesus is my personal savior, and I am saved only through Him, and by His grace. I wrote more details of my personal beliefs here: www.mormon.org/me/3bv4.
8:05 am on Monday, June 25, 2012
No you dont Bill . Brian says "Mormons don't follow the teachings of Christ." so obviously he knows more about your personal faith than you do .
He's special like that .
Kay Clark
3:16 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
When will we culturally evolve to the point that our leaders don't feel the need to pretend to believe in any invisible guides?
Racer X
8:42 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Wow, all this because you are still pissed at your ex-wife? It takes two to tango big guy. I would like to hear her side of the story.
Racer X
10:12 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
"So the question is, and I think this is a pretty profound question, is America ready to elect it's first non-Christian President?"
Profound question? Um, no. Self-serving question? Yes
William Miller
2:05 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
All who believe in and accept Christ are Christians regardless of denomination. Those who argue counter are false in their teachings representations and beliefs. Enough said.
Racer X
3:12 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Amen Mr. Miller. I believe it's just that, pure and simple, like God's love, no strings.
Ted Asher
11:39 am on Monday, June 25, 2012
This thread is a perfect example of our current intellectual and political back pedaling. Here we find approximately twenty-thousand words dealing with an "issue" that our founding document dealt with over two centuries ago. Yep, clearly and succinctly they say:
1. There shall be no religious test for office. (Article VI)
2. (No law shall be made) respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excecise thereof (Amendment I)
I'm just saying.
Oscar G.
11:14 am on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
And well said at that.
Why is this even a discussion when trying to decide whom should be our POTUS?
It has never made any sense to me.
12:49 pm on Monday, June 25, 2012
Mr. Crawford,
As a Georgia Mormon whose roots in Georgia go back to the Revolutionary War and my Mormon roots in Georgia go back to 1916, I am sorry that your ex-wife moved herself and your children to Utah which has caused you much resentment and animosity towards my faith. I am quite sure that her move was an individual choice and may have been to get away from such a cynical person. The Church encourages its members and converts to stay in the areas where they live and not to move to Utah, hence mine and my family's long tenure in the state of Georgia. It is evident that the cause of your vindictiveness is linked strongly to this event in your life where your ex got as far from you as possible. That said, for those reading this very biased blog, if you want the straight answers on what we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe, please go to www.mormon.org or www.lds.org.
Trish Gates
1:38 pm on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
This will be the second then, non-Christian president. The one we have now is no way a Christian. Pretends to be. Let's get back to unemployment, CLOSING OUR BORDERS, bringing out troups home and feeding Americans. Let other countries deal with their own problems. Who cares if the President is catholic, jewish, mormon....whatever.....let's get a President who wants to lead the country = not rule it.
Oscar G.
2:02 pm on Wednesday, July 11, 2012
And your proof of Obama's Non-Faith is what, exactly Trish?
I'm so sick of the hate mongers with nothing better to do than rant on and on about
Obama's life..as if any one of us out here knows a bloody thing about it!
We know about unemployment..let's get to job creation and returning the jobs overseas to American soil. That sounds like energy better spent.
I agree that we should be taking care of our own backyard before we look to anyone else's.
But if you think that MR is in anyway going to help with making America a better place..one that all Americans can be proud of, you're sadly mistaken.
And that mistake could cost the rest of us the very things we hold dearly.
I'm not willing to vote in Mr. Magic Underware just because you read on the internet or in the National Enquirer that Obama doesn't love the Baby Jesus.
>>>The real Decline of Western Civilization: Politics and Religion! Together Again!
Matthew K
1:50 am on Tuesday, July 31, 2012
I'm not one for politics, but rather, for Truth. I couldn't read all the comments made during this conversation, but I saw people of multiple faiths, and each of them claimed to be a servant of Jesus Christ, the only true God. I read the determination for each of them to be right, and for the victory to go to "their side". And yet they weren't all on the same side... Saints of the Most High God, against one another? God has only one side. His own. Someone is always right (on God's side), and someone else has to be wrong (not on God's side). Let the Scriptures (the Bible, understood in it's most basic forms [it's original languages, and subsequent expert translations]) be the one plumb-line for each man of righteous faith. Let us be peace-makers, according to the Word of God.
James 3:17-18 ESV "But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."
May God empower His followers, by the power of Hs infinite grace, to do these things.