text:
I am a parent of two children who attend school in South DeKalb County. I have always paid my PTA dues, blindly believing that it was part of being an engaged parent.
Last year I had the difficult choice of deciding where to send my daughter for middle school. I liked the local middle school magnet program, but was hesitant to send her there because of school-wide discipline issues. I worried even more because at 11 years old, my daughter (who is a gymnast) is very physically fit, but also fully developed and subject to inappropriate comments from older boys. Our home middle school and high school have even more discipline problems. The high school has the lowest graduation rate in the county.
To add to my worries, I also had a 5 year-old son ready to start kindergarten. How could I keep him from entering a system destined to fail him as well? After a summer filled with worry, I saw a story on television about two new charter schools: Ivy Preparatory Academy for Girls and Ivy Preparatory Academy for Boys. I did some additional research and was so impressed by the school that I enrolled both my children and immediately paid my PTA membership fees as well.
The first year of PTA at Ivy Prep began well, but in January of 2012, I began to question the mission of the PTA. A friend up in North Fulton received an email message from his PTA, urging him to vote against HR 1162, a resolution that would allow the state to authorize charter schools denied by local school boards. He was furious and complained to his school PTA. Our PTA President received the same email from Georgia PTA and wrote to them: "HR1162 is actually supported by some of your members. I am the president of the PTSA at Ivy Prep Academy and we are rallying for this resolution to pass. We are members of Georgia PTA and have paid dues. Please stop sending messages to "oppose" a bill that would actually assist your members." Of course, we did not receive a response.
As the year went on, we began to see more and more "official statements" from Georgia PTA. Many Ivy Prep parents began pushing to change our PTA to a PTO. At this point, we have three "sister schools." One has a PTO and two have PTAs. When our school opened the year with a PTA, I refused to join. Since then, our PTA group has asked the Georgia PTA to rescind our membership, but they have refused.
Public school education reform is a key issue in America. It doesn't matter whether we are Democrats or Republicans. We want our children to have the best education possible. When our children are attending an area school that is not serving their needs, we want other viable options. That's right, we want choice! This year, the Georgia General Assembly worked tirelessly to pass HR 1162 and HB 797. HR 1162 gives the state the authority to approve (not run!) qualified charter schools that are denied by local school boards. HB 797 controls the funding that will go to these schools and mandates that no local funds will be diverted to these schools. Both measures passed with bi-partisan support.
In a recent change of policy, National PTA not only reaffirmed that that charter schools offer meaningful choices for parents and families, they also supported the creation of multiple charter school authorizers, not just local school districts. Yet Georgia PTA refused to adopt their position. They act like recalcitrant children, refusing to follow their parent organization's guidelines. Georgia PTA released its own statement, as reported by Patch writer Rodney Thrash.
The "facts" the Georgia PTA presents are not just misleading, but false. If Georgia PTA refuses to align itself with National PTA, then the Georgia PTA leaders need to be excused from their duties. The National PTA web site states that it is the largest volunteer child advocacy association in the nation and it provides parents and families with a powerful voice to speak on behalf of every child. To me that means "Every Child, One Voice," not "Every Child, One Choice."
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Frank Jones
10:56 am on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
You're entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided it is. My opinion is that the national PTA has it wrong in their support for for-profit charter organizations. My opinion is that if the less rules and regulation model advocated by charter schools is better, then that model should be applied to applied to and allowed at traditional schools. My opinion is that public funds should be managed by locally elected individuals who are accountable to the entire community. My opinion is that local control in most circumstances is better than state control.
Steely Dan
2:23 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
You're entitled to your opinion too, no matter how misguided it is. My opinion is that parents need 1162 so that they've got an alternative to local-board disasters like APS, Dekalb County, and Bibb County. Your opinion that local control is better 'in most circumstances' completely, willfully ignores the needs of parents & children in districts like these...and as usual, your opinion comes down to Funding, rather than what's best for educating the child. No to 1162 eliminates alternatives for parents in those types of districts but no matter to you - Funding is more important than Educating.
Fact (not opinion) is...the traditional public school model you support is failing most American children. I completely agree that the charter school model (and private school model for that matter) should be applied to all traditional public schools. Unfortunately, liberals and union members (See Chicago) do NOT want this to occur. They want automatic raises during an economic recession & zero accountability for their inability to educate. So since these failed educrats won't get out of the way of the Georgian parent who wants their child to actually receive an education, 1162 is needed to ensure that the future of GA public schools includes charters.
No More Bullies
6:06 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
Steely Dan: APS and DeKalb County have probably approved more start-up charter schools than anywhere in the State, so hopefully your ongoing fears for those poor children are now allayed.
10:56 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
The resolution to allow state approve charter schools grants more local control to parents. You can't get more local than that. In the absence of alternatives, public schools don't have to work hard to try to keep parents happy. When you provide a choice it forces everybody, charter and traditional public schools alike to work hard. Look at the college system in the US which is rated as one of the best in the world and compare that to the middle/high school system in the US which is rates as one of the worst. Public colleges in the US are forced to work just as hard as private schools at attracting the right talent and both can coexist and thrive. As far as schools being for-profit, you should consider multiple studies that prove that entities that operate on a for profit principle end up being the most cost efficient solution. That's why capitalism as a system won and socialism lost.
9:13 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Did you know that state employees have not had a raise in 4 years? I have spent many weekends and weeknights doing all the paperwork required to do my job as a teacher. As a single parent, my own child has gone without to buy needed supplies, like paper and therapy materials that my school system doesn't have the money to purchase. Many teachers pay for children's lunches and field trips when their students have no money to pay for it. Charter schools will not take any child with a disability or those with behavior problems. They pick and choose who they want. Be careful what you wish for. It may not be that the grass is always greener on the other side. The solution is to quit funding AFTER school activities and unnecessary staff and focus all of our money and attention on the students. Tell me why a superintendent needs to make a half of a million dollars or why a coach needs to make $200,000. That's the problem. Put the money back into the schools. We do our job every day to best of our ability with what little resources are provided
Steely Dan
11:49 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
Kaitlyn, here in Cherokee County, teachers are getting across-the-board 3% raises in January, according to a July budgetary article Rodney Thrash posted here.
Also...there are tens of millions of Americans who haven't had a JOB, much less a raise, in 4 years either. Times are tough - we are all dealing with tightened budgets and the resulting fallout of the Recession.
I'd think that publicly-funded charters would have to accept special-needs children, else face lawsuits. Where are these lawsuits, if your allegation is correct?
I agree with you 100% on overpaid superintendents and athletic coaches. I'd much rather people like you on the front lines of education get my tax $$$ than some superintendent using it to fill up his gas-guzzling SUV via monthly car allowance. The people actually Teaching & funding for their classrooms should be First priority. Those Administering or Supervising should be paid last, if at all. Instead, it's the other way around, which is why we have furloughs. What I don't understand is why so many of the teachers I speak to support this system, rather than one that funds their needs 100% first. Do teachers really need Admins and Supers in order to do their job?
Darryl Wilson
12:03 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
You vote for yourself when you vote against ANY rule that allows the state to overturn an election. It may take you 3 trips to the ballot box to protect te value of yor vote.. so be it. But to give away the last source of power of a self-governed society, is a self-inflicted wound that simply has no recovery. Don't do it.
Elizabeth Hooper
3:29 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
Steely, Please stop misleading people. Parents can apply to a local BOE to start a charter school and if denied, they can apply to the state under current law. From the DOE:
Ms. Hooper,
Pursuant to your email below, the authority of the State Board to approve a charter that was locally denied is found in O.C.G.A. Section 20-2-2064.1(c), which states:
No application for a state chartered special school may be made to the state board by a petitioner for a conversion charter school that has been denied by a local board. Upon denial of a petition for a start-up charter school by a local board and upon application to the state board by the petitioner, the state board shall approve the charter of a start-up charter petitioner for a state chartered special school if the state board finds, after receiving input from the Charter Advisory Committee, that such petition meets the requirements set for in Code Section 20-2-2063 and the provisions of this title, and is in the public interest.
What exactly about that do you not understand? And please stop preaching about greater parental involvement in HR 1162 - there is NO requirement for a non-profit to even include PARENTS on the governing board of a state charter school - HB 797, line 205 - 209. You are giving honest parents who have started community based charter schools which EVERYONE would agree can be a positive thing a really bad rap.
Steely Dan
6:46 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
Mrs Hooper, what exactly did last year's court ruling achieve then? What did that Court ruling overturn? That decision was a short-sighted one not supported by most Georgians and 1162 will go a long way toward righting the wrongs inherent in that decision. The fact that 1162 itself was supported by a 2/3 bipartisan majority itself speaks volumes. Were 2/3 of GA elected House reps wrong?
Re:Parental involvement: Not sure why this is such an issue with you. Is there a requirement that traditional public schools include parents on local school districts? The many years I spent on my son's school PTA had zero parental involvement in curriculum, funding, and other school issues of real importance to my son's education. We were little more than vehicles for fund-raising. So spare me the 'parental involvement' angle, as there's clearly none required in traditional public schools.
Finally, please stop misguiding people about funding issues if 1162 passes. The amendment is clear that no local monies will be used to fund state-approved charter schools. I know that Funding is the end-all, be-all item of importance for you status-quo advocates but rest assured the taxpayer-filled trough that trad. public schools siphon $$$ from won't be affected. Not that it matters - increases in funding have never and will never fix the problems of our failed liberal public educational model. Thus the need for charters in the first place.
Thomas Hart
10:21 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
State authority to authorize charter schools, or do almost anything in education, is one lawsuit away from falling to the same "exclusive" power ruling that ended the State Charter Commission. Justice Nahmias spells the issue out clearly in his dissent: http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-nahmias-dissent.pdf
Would you support a lawsuit that removes the state completely from education in Georgia except as a revenue stream?
Steely Dan
6:42 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
Furthermore Mrs Hooper, your complaints about 1162 creating unnecessary gov't rings hollow when the facts are presented. The passage of 1162 would result in the creation of a charter commission that would have 5 people ALREADY EMPLOYED BY THE DOE on it. And how would these people be funded? From the Charter Application itself, not from the taxpayer.
I.E. This would have ZERO impact on existing funding and would not result in the need to employ ANY new gov't workers.
Juan Dela Cruz
3:24 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Ms. Hooper, I have read in many of these blog posts the statistics. Of the 60 schools that applied for charters while there was a commission, only 4 were approved. That's terrible. Zero were approved the year before the commission. That's total failure by our local school systems.
I am tired of those very well to do people saying "my school is good, so you don't need one".
3:53 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
We paid a lot of money for preschool, and the core curriculum from the state, county, and federal government is too easy for our kindergartner. It's review and she's bored. We're already talking with the teacher about getting her supplemental workbooks (and from what I understand, that should be doable. I am disappointed that it shafted the Charter Schools that had passed the conceptual stage like the Imagine International Academy in Smyrna. I think that's a serious letdown for the communities involved.
4:02 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
RE: "National PTA...supported the creation of multiple charter school authorizers, not just local school districts. Yet Georgia PTA refused to adopt their position. They act like recalcitrant children, "
In the editorial above, Mr. Harkness has taken two contradictory positions:
1. The Georgia PTA should not take a position on this issue because they have dues paying members who disagree with their current position.
2. The Georgia PTA should adopt the position of the National PTA, even though the Georgia PTA has dues paying members who disagree with that position.
You can argue for one of those positions, but not both.
If Ms. Harkness wants to argue that both the national PTA and state PTA should not take a position on this issue, then that would be one thing. But instead she's arguing that the Georgia PTA should not take a position on this issue, UNLESS it's the position that SHE agrees with.
To be clear, state-funded charter schools do not take LOCAL funding away from existing public schools; they take STATE funding away from existing public schools. The State of Georgia is already failing to meet its legal obligations to fund public schools under the state constitution and under Quality Basic Education (QBE) legislation. Every dollar sent to a state-charted school is a dollar not sent to the existing school school districts, as required by law.
Steely Dan
6:59 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
True but to be clear, local school districts are already taking the property tax money from charter parents without providing an education for the children of those parents. Local district $$ is NOT 'following the child' (not quoting you here CJ - just using an oft-repeated phrase).
Fortunately, metrics show that charter schools do a better job of educating and graduating kids and at a much lower cost than the traditional public school model, a model that 95% of America agrees no longer provides an excellent education for children.
Rae Harkness
6:11 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
The point is that National PTA is the parent organization. If Georgia PTA members disagree with National PTA, they need to form a new group with a clear mission. Charter PTAs paid dues to both Georgia PTA and National PTA based on the fact that the organization is there to support their students.
6:40 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
If the national PTA generally opposed such charter school amendments and the Georgia PTA supported this particular amendment, would you argue that the state organization should comply with the dictates of the national organization? Or would you argue that the national organization should allow more local control when it comes to advocacy activities having to do with specific ballot questions at the state level?
Also, I would argue that opposing the Charter School Amendment in Georgia IS supporting our students. I hope that both sides of this issue will get together and seek to persuade our state representatives to fully fund QBE.
Rae Harkness
7:43 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
If the National PTA generally opposed such measures, we would have had a PTO.
Steely Dan
7:08 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
I would argue that opposition to 1162 is akin to supporting the status quo, a status quo that has our state embarrassingly ranked near the bottom of an America already mired in the mid 30s in global education rankings.
More funding isn't the answer. Getting the liberalism out of the traditional public school model is but places like Chicago show how deadset against any real change those involved in public education are.
It's always -- and only -- about funding for the public school backers.
I agree with Frank Jones - Why not incorporate those items that make private and charter schools succeed into the public school system?
As it is now, opposition to school alternatives is not supporting the student but instead support the admins and superintendents already lined up and feeding at the public taxpayer-filled trough of funds.
$7 billion annually should be enough to fund all public schools - traditional AND charter.
10:54 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
RE: "Why not incorporate those items that make private and charter schools succeed into the public school system?"
Steely Dan seems to operating under the false impression that private and charter schools are, overall, better than public schools, despite evidence to the contrary.
In fact, results for private and charter schools are mixed, at best. For example, Cobb County voted last year not to renew the charter for a charter school that was not performing up to the standards of public schools: http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/15842000/article-Reality-tough-to-Imagine-for-ill-fated-Cobb-charter-school.
At the risk of offending, this entire debate is between those who are aware of the reality that private/charters are not a magic bullet, and those who live in the fantasy that they are.
To be clear, there is a magic bullet, several rather: More hours in the school day...more school days in the school year...buildings that don't leak, don't make children sick, provide heat when it's cold and air conditioning when it's hot...smaller classes...and the best and brightest teachers that we can find. I'm sorry to report that those things cost money. And if people are going to whine about their school taxes, then they should expect crappy schools.
Rae Harkness
11:10 pm on Tuesday, September 11, 2012
Yes, results are mixed, but the bottom line is that charter schools are accountable to their communities. If they don't deliver, they disappear. My area high school failed to graduate 40% of its seniors. Yet they continue to operate, year after year.
2:31 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
CJ: You can say what you want, but most of the top ranked high schools in the country are charter and magnet schools, including in a very rough area in a poor town I know of up North, which was in the past far behind the wealthier town I grew up in.
Frank Jones
8:37 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
Steely...You took my statement/question out of context and massaged it in order to make it support your argument for charter schools...My statement/question was prefaced with an "if" and at no point did I say that the charter & private school model was better than traditional schools. As you should remember from other posts on this site, I have pointed out specific issues with the test results of CCA compared to CCSD whereby, CCA performed no better than CCSD and even worse than CCSD.
@Rae...Traditional public schools are accountable to their communities. Period. Unfortunately, some communities apparantly aren't active enough in overseeing their boards or active enough in their children's education. There could be a multitude of reasons for this. The proposed amendment lessens the local communities' control over their children's education and allows state-appointed bureaucrats who are subject to state political will & lobbyists to infringe upon local education.
With traditional schools, you have a problem, go to the local board and super. With state appointed bureaucrats, you have a problem, travel to Atlanta and try to schedule a meeting. Good Luck!
Frank Jones
8:44 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
@Brian: You are correct...most of the top ranked schools in the country are magnet and charter schools. What you fail to realize is that they aren't top ranked schools simply because of their organization structure but because they have taken the top -- the very top -- of the student bodies from the local school systems and housed them under one roof. Heck, if we took the top 10% of students from any school district in GA and placed them under 1 roof in that district, that school would be tops in the country!
If you're talking about a handful of magnet or charter schools, it's easy to appear to get better simply by attracting the top students. If you try to roll magnets and charters to the masses and educate all students under those models, you'll have exactly the same results....With the exception that for-profit charters will cost you much, much more!
Steely Dan
10:16 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Talk about 'taking things out of context', Frank?
One charter school (CCA) doesn't equate to all charter schools anymore than APS == all public schhols.. I'm sure if the CCA was spending the $$$ per-child that the wasteful district is, its results would be higher. As it is, CCA didn't fail to meet CRCT guidelines in its first underfunded year, something that 4 overly-funded CCSD schools couldn't say the year before.
And no APS, Bibb County or Dekalb County shenanigans would ever be tolerated at the charter level, as they'd go out of business when parents remove children from them.
While you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how misguided it is, privates and charters do a better job of educating children. Their HS graduation rates are far higher than the abysmal rates of the public education system and they remain open when Teacher Unions go on strike and shut down public schools. They succeed primarily because they are in the business of Educating Children, not Whining For Funding, which is the primary concern of all public education.
Rae Harkness
8:46 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
@Frank...That's simply not true. State-appointed "bureaucrats" are not "controlling" the school. They serve as authorisers. The board of the charter school is the go-to when there are issues. And they are much more accessible than the county BOE members. It's hard to even get seated in a county BOE meeting.
Frank Jones
11:28 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
@Rae...true, but not. The board of the charter is the first place to go if you have an issue. If they don't resolve the issue, the next step is to go to the state appointed board for results. It's the state appointed board that has ultimate control of the funding for a state-sponsored charter. And when you're talking big-business for-profit charter schools doling out money, good luck getting funding for a problematic charter school canceled and their approval yanked.
True, it can be tough to get setting at CCSD board meetings, however, I don't believe CCA publicizes its board meetings and I believe they hold them jointly with their sister school in another county. Makes it tough to attend.
Rae Harkness
8:51 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
@Frank...how will charters cost more? Even after HR 1162 / HB 797, funding is still only about 2/3 of what local schools receive per student. Effective use of taxpayer dollars + performance = a win for everyone.
Frank Jones
11:52 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012
@Rae...as currently proposed, charters will receive less funding than traditional schools. However, charters do not have to accepts ALL students no matter their physical or mental issues. Essentially, charters are accepting "cheaper to educate" students and leaving more costly students to the traditional school system. In addition, charters like CCA don't offer transportation services which reduces their costs.
In my comment about charters costing more, it was based upon several aspects. First, my comment was assumed that charters were rolled out to cover ALL STUDENTS and they had to educate the higher-cost student which will equate the real cost. Second, for-profit charter schools want to turn a profit of around 15%. This 15% profit margin will increase our costs by 15% unless they can mysteriously shave 15% from expenses. Lastly, in the traditional model, real estate and buildings are owned by the public (via the school system). The public will own that real estate forever. Under the for-profit charter program, the real estate will be owned by the for-profit company and we (the taxpayers) will pay rent forever. Owning over time is cheaper than renting!
The For-Profit Charter Model isn't about the children. It's about 15% profits. It's about acquiring real estate. It's about maximizing their return on investment. It's about Profit without Risk.
Steely Dan
10:31 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012
CCA doesn't offer transportation because they don't have the money to do so because the local board didn't approve them.
The traditional public school model is not about educating children. First & foremost, its primary goal is Funding for superintendents, admins, and teachers. Its second goal is then shoveling as much taxpayer cash as possible to the numerous For-Profit companies that are lined up at the public-school trough: For-profit companies that supply books, computers, buses, gas for buses, lunch food, etc. The Ombudsman company alone charged GA taxpayers over $15 Million for services that included graduation coaching and working with at-risk students. That's $15 million being spent on a For-Profit company by our public school system.
I can guess your response: "It's OK When We Do It!!!"
Last and least, it then attempts to provide an adequate education of children. It fails at providing this for 1 of 3 GA children who dropout of school and don't even get a HS diploma. It then uses this statistic (that it helped create!!) to enhance its chances at acquiring more funding (i.e. the primary goal). And the Cycle of Mediocrity and Failure continues.
Parents aren't stupid and see this for what it is. It's why they opt-out in droves at the first opportunity at an alternative to this dismally-failed liberal education system.
No More Bullies
12:16 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
CCA can't afford transportation, but they can afford to pay their management company $891,000-- a full $100,000 over and above the proposed fee in the 5-year budget in their petition? And is there a school nurse this year, or are volunteers still manning the clinic? Interesting priorities. On test scores, CCA did not meet the state average in math in two grade levels in CRCT, and fell way short of the state average on the writing assessment. Yes, public schools contract with private vendors, but it is a transparent process that is a transparent competitive bidding process. And, vendors provide a service or goods, they do not determine budgets, hire and fire staff or make curriculum decisions-- that is the job of a board.
Rae Harkness
1:56 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
I have a lot more faith in an individual charter board than a collective county school board. There's a lot less money at stake.
Jen Falk on Gwinnett: When I started my campaign, I painstakingly reviewed the school budget. One of the things I kept finding is just how difficult it is to question the status quo. For example, my team and I noticed with curiosity a line item "Banking Fees and services for central office and local schools (including fees for investment advisor)" It turns out this is where the the $150,000 is buried (and probably has been for 5 years) to pay for 2 economic development folks at the Chamber. When GCPS defended the positions by claiming without empirical data that Partnership Gwinnett brought $800 million to the area, providing $6 million in tax revenue to GCPS, curiosity turned to disbelief.
Rae Harkness
2:00 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Please refer to the federal definition of a charter school, which Mr. Lewis recently posted: http://peachtreecorners.patch.com/articles/must-we-resort-to-fabrications-when-discussing-the-lives-of-children-dfa090c6
Rae Harkness
2:03 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
In particular:
(1) CHARTER SCHOOL- The term charter school' means a public school that —
(G) complies with the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, and part B of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act;
(H) is a school to which parents choose to send their children, and that admits students on the basis of a lottery, if more students apply for admission than can be accommodated;
Frank Jones
2:26 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Steely...So your belief is that every school board member, superintendent, administrator and teacher is in it for the money...to get rich off of the taxpayers? Once again, you've outdone yourself! Your comments show your lack of knowledge and business.
In respect to using for-profit vendors, "It's OK When We Do It!!!" is true because unlike CCA and for-profit charters, the local school board that is duly elected by the public, sets the operating budget, determines what needs to be purchased, puts purchases out for bid, establishes criteria for approving bids, publishes the budget, holds open board meetings, publishes notice of said meetings, and is accountable to the public via elections. For-Profit Charters...No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No and No.
You love to talk about graduation rates...so here goes. Graduation rates are impacted by more than just how good our schools are. There are socio-economic issues that impact graduation rates. In the many parts of the south, education hasn't historically been perceived as being important. In the past, the south has been heavy agriculture, mills, and other "blue-collar" professions. Basic schooling sufficed. As a result, many rural adults don't have high school degrees and may not push their children to excel in school. We're just one generation from the Deliverance, Appalachia, and poor south. It takes time for new culture to take root. AL, GA, FL, SC, MS, LA all have low graduation rates!
Steely Dan
3:18 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Frank, being in the private sector makes me far more aware of 'business' than anyone in the for-profit business of public education, where no lack of performance ever results in job loss or lack of raises. Only in the public sector are employees rewarded for such behavior as is seen both in public education, as well as transportation and other gov't sectors.
Thank you for your honesty in acknowledging that there is much that is "For Profit" in public education.
re:socio-economic issues - If that's the case, then how is More Funding for those regions going to help? If socio-economic issues are a root cause, how does increasing Superintendent, admin, and teacher pay help these students of poor families? We've got a near-30 year history here in GA where per-child spending across the state (including poor regions) has increased over 100%....yet student performance has remained stagnant or decreased in many areas.
If parents without diplomas aren't pushing their children to graduate in those areas, how will increasing those districts' budgets change this?
Closer to home, there were under-performing schools in the half-billion-$$$ CCSD just a few years ago, prior to the charter school's existence. Why do you feel those parents should remain trapped in these failing schools, rather than having an alternative? Why is it OK to take the parents' property tax and not provide a quality education with it?
Diane Loupe
12:38 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Since the local school system has approved your charter school, this amendment would not take away that power. The Republican state School Superintendent opposes this bill because it would divert money away from public schools at a time when the state is cutting public schools. I support public schools, and I also think charter schools have a place. As a PTA member, I got an email from the state PTA that says "National PTA's revised statement also says the public charter schools must have at least one parent on the charter school board, have meaningful parent engagement and shared decision making. This (Georgia) amendment omits parent involvement completely. Unlike local charter schools, there is no requirement for state authorized charter schools to include parents in any decision making process and when asked to have parent engagement included as a requirement, it was specifically denied."
I think the state PTA must represent all students, not just those in charter schools. I think the Georgia PTA made the right call on this one, and I figure it must not have been easy.
Rae Harkness
1:50 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Parent involvement wasn't part of the amendment because it had nothing to do with the issue - providing an alternate authorizer when local boards deny a charter application that is properly put together and has community support. GA PTA was just grasping for straws by coming up with this ridiculous idea. How many local schools have a provision for parent involvement, engagement and decision making? Actually, many charter schools have mandated parent hours. Ours does.
Frank Jones
2:43 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Rae...Many public schools welcome parent volunteers. Many charter schools MANDATE parent involvement. For many parents, a mandate to "volunteer" at a school is unreasonable based upon their family and work schedules. As a result, a MANDATE could prevent some children from attending a charter school and thus making the charter...not so public.
The GA PTA is correct in their position. There is no need to set up a separate bureaucracy. It would be better if all of the effort and money advocating for charters was instead being directed to our existing school systems.
Steely Dan
3:22 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Rae: "How many local schools have a provision for parent involvement, engagement and decision making? "
Answer: ZERO. Although they do love parents who volunteer for the endless fund-raising that the PTA coordinates. Forget about making any real difference in your child's education via PTA involvement though.
Yet somehow, public school status-quo advocates think a lack of politically-mandated parental involvement in charter schools is some sort of Red Flag or dis-qualifier.
Hypocrisy, cleanup on aisle 4!!!
Steely Dan
3:28 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Make up your mind, Frank. Is parental involvement a good or bad thing? Obviously I was never forced to volunteer for PTA involvement but I don't understand why you seem to think that mandating parents to be involved with their child's education is a bad thing? Nor do I think you're correct in stating that it's some sort of make/break issue in regards to the enrollment of the child. The charter school is open to all, contrary to your dishonest implications to the contrary.
It'd be better for public schools if all the energy spent on incessantly whining and complaining about a lack of funding was instead spent on educating children.
Frank Jones
10:53 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Steely...Want to talk about whining? You are one of the biggest whiners around! "I want charter. I want charter. I want charter." Stop your whining and actually come forward with intellectual comments and arguments! You're such a bore.
Steely Dan
11:09 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
And Frank, when faced with facts, predictably devolves into Phase 3 of the Failed Liberal Method of Debate: Shoot the Messenger.
You're the first -- and only -- person in this thread to hurl personal insults, Frank. It's OK - I can take it, as it's the First Sign of a Lost Debate. For every statistic I provide, you provide an excuse for the failure of public education. An excuse that is NOT solvable via "More Funding"...yet that ends up being your idea of a 'solution' to any and all problems.
You know your liberal ideologies are complete, total failures. So you've got nothing left to do but attack the messenger. The Message remains unchanged: Your liberal ideologies when applied to public education have been unmitigated disasters for America's future, as evidenced by our global ed. ranking and our dismal state ranking.
You aren't interested in any statistics I've provided, since all come to the same conclusion: Your ideas are TOTAL failures NOT solvable by taking more Taxpayer Money.
Call me some more names, Frankie! It reveals the failure of your side of this debate more than anything I could possible type.
Kara Martin
8:28 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
Diane, my children go to CCA and I believe you are confused regarding this school. The local board did NOT approve this Charter School. As a matter of fact they denied it numerous times. Kind of funny since this school is providing a great education to the children enrolled. It was denied based on one issue, power and greed. The local BOE does not want a school it does not have complete control of in its district. It has nothing to do with the education the school could provide to the children. Which is very disheartening since this should have been one of the main factors! Regarding parents being on the board of Charters, CCA has at least 2 parents on the board that I know of. Also, this amendment does not take money away from district schools. The only money these schools would receive from the state would be the per pupil funding. Which the district loses if my child goes to private school or is home schooled. Therefore, the assumption by you is that if a Charter is denied that all of those parents would remain in the district school. I can tell you if this amendment fails my children will not. Therefore, you still will not receive that state funded per pupil amount. You do however, receive my local taxes regardless of where I send my child. So again, how is this bad? You are making money on every child not attending the district school at the local tax level.
Diane Loupe
2:04 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
As I understand it, if a local school board denies a charter, they can appeal to the state board of education, who has the authority to authorize the school. So, this amendment only creates another bureaucracy at a time when public funds for education are scare and should not be wasted. I'm not opposed to charters, but I am opposed to wasting school dollars to fix a problem that doesn't exist. In Decatur City Schools, there are parent advisory boards and committees that work extensively with the schools. Decatur is a charter school system. I think this amendment is bad policy. Why should the state PTA support anything that diverts money from neighborhood schools to charter schools? How does this amendment help your particular school? What problem does this amendment fix?
Rae Harkness
2:11 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
I want to address your question thoroughly. I just popped in at home for lunch break and will respond tonight. I'm screening Won't Back Down tonight at North DeKalb Mall after work. I appreciate your active discussion on the issue. Decatur has some great schools.
Elizabeth Hooper
6:14 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Please answer Diane's question. Why won't you acknowledge that under current georgia law if a charter petitioner is denied by a local board, they have the right to appeal to the State BOE. Why duplicate that mechanism that is already in place? What are you after? Life insurance in case someone challenges that authority. We're all being dragged thru this mess so you can have an insurance policy? Also - the state BOE had this authority prior to the Charter Commission which was disbanded. Was is challenged then? Please site the legal case numbers if you find any. Thanks.
Thomas Hart
10:16 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
I already answered this same question above and on several of your (and Frank's) other posts. I will post it again in case you missed it….
State authority to authorize charter schools, or do almost anything in education, is one lawsuit away from falling to the same "exclusive" power ruling that ended the State Charter Commission. The lawsuit addressed the constitutionality of the State Charter Commission but the precedent of the judgment would be applicable to even the State BOE. The existing State BOE authority would also be struck down if tested against the "exclusive" wording used in the Supreme Court ruling. Justice Nahmias spells the issue out clearly in his dissent: http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-nahmias-dissent.pdf
Please read it.
Would you support a lawsuit that removes the state completely from education in Georgia except as a revenue stream?
Frank Jones
11:00 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Thomas...Your reply supports Elizabeth's contention that the state ALREADY has the authority to approve charter schools. The state would not have the authority when:
1. There is a lawsuit challenging the state's authority, and
2. Only if the state lost
Until then, the state can authorize charter schools.
Thomas Hart
11:08 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
So what do you think the chances are that no lawsuit will be filed?
Frank Jones
11:34 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Thomas...Don't know. There haven't been any in the year + since the Supreme Court issued their opinion. There could be a lawsuit tomorrow or never. Until it happens, the state shouldn't be trying to change the constitution.
Thomas Hart
11:36 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Would you support a lawsuit that removes the state completely from education in Georgia except as a revenue stream?
Frank Jones
12:23 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
Thomas...There is a place for local control and there is a place for state oversight. For instance, we have local police, but the sheriff's dept trumps them. We have state patrol which trumps the sheriff's department. We have GBI which trumps the state patrol. And lastly, we have the FBI which trumps the GBI.
In respect to public education, I believe that the locally elected Board of Education should have control of public education in their attendance zone. The state should act as a funding mechanism in most cases. Only when the local district is truly failing, the Board is dysfunctional, there is gross corruption or other breaches of state and federal law should the state step in.
Under HR1162, the state is seizing control of education from local districts and placing it in the hands of appointed bureaucrats. The state plans to turn education over to for-profit management companies which operate much more secretly than traditional public education. And worse, the track record of these management companies are no better or worse than our current schools.
HR1162 places our children's education in the hands of politicians who probably couldn't handle a real job...Rogers defaulted on a million dollar loan and bankrupted a business, Deal was run out of congress after using political influence for personal gain, our banking chairman is being sued for banking corruption, Kathy Cox filed bankruptcy, and on and on.
Thomas Hart
10:01 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
I read your response as a wordy "yes". I think the ink on that lawsuit is already dry and if the Public Charter Amendment doesn't pass, it will be filed in short order. The result will be immediate shutdown of the current State charter schools.
The flaw in pointing out the failings of our state elected leaders is that it presumes the local board members and superintendents hold some moral high ground. We could have some real fun with that discussion.
If you want a quick turnaround on quality, let the parent choose the school. Nothing says quality like a waiting list. You figure out quickly what works and it can be duplicated. Elections are great but they are at best on a 2 year cycle. Change comes slow. We loose (and have lost) generations of students waiting for needed change. Two levels of accountability would keep the board members and legislators tuned to the voters and the schools tuned to quality and performance.
Frank Jones
12:30 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Thomas...You read incorrectly. My response to you was that the state should be hands off unless there is corruption, gross incompetence, gross failure within a specific district. To give the state blanket authority to act in ANY district for ANY cause is problematic.
Thomas Hart
12:38 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
What is your opinion on the 2 levels of accountability? In particular, adding parent choice to drive education performance.
Diane Loupe
3:35 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Steely, as a public school parent, I've seen good principals get rid of poor teachers. You've identified many problems with schools, but cutting salaries sure isn't the answer either, is it? We all know that students perform best when they have parents who value education, and that can be sorely lacking in some public schools. But Georgia ALREADY HAS a charter school system, and this amendment is NOT going to create that. This is going to create more bureaucracy and divert scarce resources from public schools. I think it awfully simplistic to imply that nothing will help underperforming schools ... But one think almost certain to hurt those schools is to take away their money and perhaps the core of motivated parents who generally make up a PTA and PTO. It is far easier to turn out high-achieving children when those children have college-educated parents who donate money to the PTA, than a school filled with poor students whose parents are one paycheck away from eviction. This amendment isn't about giving parents trapped in a failing school system an alternative ... they already have charter school alternatives. I'm sorely tempted to say what I've heard some conservatives say to me about health care alternatives...if you don't like the insurance provided, change jobs. Shouldn't they also advise those parents to move if they don't like their local schools? I know, I know. It's not an option for many folks.
Steely Dan
11:21 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
Diane, I don't favor cutting teacher pay. I favor completely, totally funding the classroom First. Teachers, students, etc. Fund these so that there are no furlough days. Whatever is left over can be used to pay admins & Superintendents, neither of which are needed for teachers to do their jobs. From my many teacher meetings over the last decade, the last thing teachers want is more Admin Red Tape.
Anyone in the private sector can attest that noone's job gets any easier or better by adding more Management. I suspect public education could easily get by with cutting loads of fat from the Admin Overhead portion of the budget.
This amendment won't create any new gov't positions. Existing state DOE members would serve on the commission and any expenses incurred would be picked up by the charter school in question, not the tax payer. No new gov't hires. No extra expense to the taxpayer.
I don't see anything wrong with diverting some resources to charter schools. Charter parents are already having their property taxes seized from them and NOT used on educating their child (Local property taxes are NOT 'following the child' where the local board didn't approve the charter). And throwing good money after bad (continuing to hurl money at public education without any accountability) and expecting improvement is honestly just a sign of insanity or that the Chicago Teacher Union is in town.
Frank Jones
12:41 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Steely...You lack of financial and business is showing again. Admins and Superintendents are necessary for the operation of a school district. Further to have quality individuals in these roles, the district must pay competitive salaries.
Anyone in the private sector knows that you must have managers overseeing the sales forces, setting goals, and policies to ensure that the sales force does its job. Anyone in the private sector knows that you must have accounting staffs and controllers to ensure that the accounting is approriate, vendors paid, and corporate assets are safeguarded against theft, loss, and mismanagement. Anyone in business knows that you must have council on staff or retainer to ensure that you don't break the law, review contracts, etc.
Every great successful for-profit organization has reached success by hiring quality management personnel. Your argument that management personnel isn't needed is flat wrong....Again!
Steely Dan
12:04 am on Thursday, September 20, 2012
Frank, if increasing the salaries of local Supers & Admins produced better results...how come GA's educational rankings have plummeted the past 2 decades that we've been doing this?
No teacher's performance is improved by increasing the pay of a superintendent or admin. No student's ability to learn is improved by increasing the pay of a superintendent or admin. As usual, your ideology is a total failure when the cold shower of reality is turned on to it. But since it involves "Spend! Spend! Spend!", it's predictably the only idea you can come up with. You've clearly got no idea what it takes to succeed in the private sector if you believe that More Management is the Key to Success. Every honest private sector worker in this thread is laughing at you. But 'More Management' is the same as 'More Government' to you.
Some of us don't need the managerial babysitting you clearly require for success, Frank. I'm betting no teacher does.
Diane Loupe
3:43 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Mr. Dan, the PTA's objection was to not mandating parental representatives on the board, a valid point, and your comment about ZERO school systems with a provision for parent engagement is inaccurate. My school system in Decatur does. I don't think you will ever find ANY competition education advocate who would EVER tell you that parental involvement is a bad thing. Incessant whining? Well, when we live in a world in which schools get all the money they need for children and we have to have a bake sale to buy a nuclear weapon, then we can talk. Money isn't everything, but it sure does help buy textbooks, hire teachers, buy lunches and build playgrounds.
Steely Dan
11:27 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
But (at least in my county) there was a time when districts got "all the money they need". Our superintendent incessantly pines for the days "before the austerity cuts", as if this was some sort of Shangri La period of educational enlightenment...yet a cursory glance at test scores and HS graduation rates for that period shows no discernible difference whatsoever between then and now.
Schools have been getting plenty of money over the past few decades. Per-child spending in GA has doubled the past 20 years. Where's the associated uptick in student performance?
PS: I know you aren't making the 'for-profit==evil' argument but it's noteworthy to point out that the companies providing the textbooks, lunches, and playgrounds in your example are all for-profit companies employed by the pub. ed. system. I've got no problems with these companies making a profit, btw. Incentive is a good thing, contrary to the complaints of Frank and his ilk.
Frank Jones
12:49 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Steely...For what it's worth, there is something called "time value of money" and "inflation index". Essentially, a dollar 20 years ago bought more than a dollar today.
You stated that "per-child spending in Georgia has doubled the past 20 years". I'll trust your statement is accurate; however, based upon the inflation index, there hasn't been a doubling of real per-child spending. Instead, it would only be roughly at 21% real increase in total spending. And that 21% real increase could easily be attributable to an acceleration of capital expenditures required to accomodate the influx of population/students.
Frank Jones
11:53 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012
Ms. Hooper...I have a few questions re: HB 797 and HR 1162 that you may be able to answer.
Under HR 1162:
1: The state can approve "special schools" which MAY INCLUDE state charter schools. What other type of special schools are there?
2. "State charter schools shall not include private, sectarian, religious or for profit schools". Could the other implied special schools include religious, sectarian, private or for profit schools?
3. The state is authorized to expend "state" funds...in such amount and manner as may be provided by law; provided, no deduction shall be made to any state funding which a local school system is otherwise authorized to receive...as a direct result or consequence of the enrollment in a state charter school of a specific student or students...
3a Does the state allocate the federal funds to school systems. Would this prevent the state from allocate federal funds to charters?
3b HB 797 was written to provide additional funding above QBE. Couldn't the assembly further change the funding mechanism at their discretion?
3c Couldn't it be argued that as a consequence of a state charter school opening, that the local school system lost state funding for each student that left to attend the charter?
4. "The General Assembly may be general law provide for the establishement of education policies for such public education." Doesn't this allow the assembly complete control over public education?
Elizabeth Hooper
8:46 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
Hi Frank,
So happy someone is taking time to read the legislation. I am not an expert, just a concerned citizen reading between the lines which is exactly what we all have to do because the legislation is intentionally worded to not cause alarm and give leeway to take future action that is not stated explicitly. In my reading, the key is "otherwise authorized" in terms of funding. The general assembly determines the QBE formula and the BOE is responsible for distributing Federal funds I believe. I need to do much more research on that aspect. As in HB 797, the assembly can modify the formula, sign the bill and then the number crunchers say after July 1st in this case - look what the new amount for state charters is! Because Georgia cannot run a deficit, clearly money for HR 1162 and the pay raise just approved on July 1st has to reduce funding somewhere else. I heard another rumor of ESplost money being diverted to state charters - again perhaps a call to the state budget office is in order. Interesting that NO ONE will tell the voters where exactly the money's coming from. Despicable.
Elizabeth Hooper
9:47 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
Hi Frank,
So happy someone is taking time to read the legislation. I am not an expert, just a concerned citizen reading between the lines which is exactly what we all have to do because the legislation is intentionally worded to not cause alarm and give leeway to take future action that is not stated explicitly. In my reading, the key is "otherwise authorized" in terms of funding. The general assembly determines the QBE formula and the BOE is responsible for distributing Federal funds I believe. I need to do much more research on that aspect. As in HB 797, the assembly can modify the formula, sign the bill and then the number crunchers say after July 1st in this case - look what the new amount for state charters is! Because Georgia cannot run a deficit, clearly money for HR 1162 and the pay raise just approved on July 1st has to reduce funding somewhere else. I heard another rumor of ESplost money being diverted to state charters - again perhaps a call to the state budget office is in order. Interesting that NO ONE will tell the voters where exactly the money's coming from. Despicable don't you think.
Frank Jones
12:01 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
HB797 - this bill provides supplemental funding for the state charter schools. Couldn't the General Assembly change the law at any time to provide additional funding to state charter schools? For instance, under this bill charters will receive
"The average amount of total revenues less federal revenues less state revenues other than equalization grants per full-time equivalent for the lowest five school systems ranked by assessed valuation per weighted full-time equivalent count"
Couldn't the assembly change this to be "for the highest five school systems"? Or even 2 times QBE? Couldn't the state also change the law to provide block grants to any charter opening a new school or opening new grade levels?
Essentially, where is our protection that the state won't change the law to fund charters and their for-profit management companies disproportionately as compared to traditional schools?
Elizabeth Hooper
8:55 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
continued - sorry not to answer each specific question - the short answer to money in my opinion is that the General Assembly and the Gov. have broad or all, authority over state funds. They can do whatever is voted on, they have a plan and no one's talking. To answer #4 - this is a huge statement in HR 1162 that I have not heard discussed yet. Does it open the door to vouchers? It is vague and I'm sure deceptive. As usual, no one's talking. If you know of a constitutional lawyer, it would be very appropriate to get a legal opinion. If I can find one, I'll write in.
Elizabeth Hooper
9:20 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
To repeat my question - the States authority to authorize charter schools was not challenged prior to the formation of the State Charter Commission was it? That is a yes or no answer. What evidence do you have that it would be challenged now - in writing. The supreme courts ruling against the charter commission is not evidence of future litigation it is extrapolation. You are asking the voters in a very misleading fashion I might add to give "for profit" operators the rock solid legal ground to make an investment in Georgia. Come on now Thomas, why is their problem my problem. Why is it my problem if Red Apple/Charter schools USA isn't comfortable purchasing property and leasing it back to themselves in the face of a POTENTIAL legal challenge or why should I need to make things a bit easier for them by allowing a "state wide" attendance zone so they can bypass those cumbersome local school boards. Who are you anyway, Thomas, and what dog do you have in this fight? It's rotten to the peach pit!
Thomas Hart
11:08 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
The entire lawsuit was a challenge to the State's authority. The lawsuit was directed at the State Charter Commission but the precedent reaches potentially much further and will be tested. I find no comfort in the assertion that the education power brokers will not secure their "exclusive" authority through the courts.
As far as my dog... I do not have an executive salary/benefits, guaranteed raises, generous retirement, powerful voting bloc, or tenure in the fight.
I have my children and my tax dollars.
Diane Loupe
9:34 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
Front page story in today's AJC says that the vast majority of money to support the passage of the amendment is coming from out of state, including $250,000 from a Wal-Mart heiress. "Opponents point to the out-of-state money as proof that the push to change the state's constitution is coming from outside forces that ahve an ideological stake in the debate or simply want to make money by operating charter schools in Georgia."
Elizabeth Hooper
9:53 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
Thanks Diane and AJC - finally this is getting some wide spread press!
10:00 am on Friday, September 14, 2012
The Walmart heiress is known for her support of conservative issues. You also have to wonder what the Koch brothers have to do with this. They want to re-segregate schools. And they want to dismantle every government program. One of their goals is to destroy the public school system. http://www.thenation.com/blog/167502/koch-brothers-exposed
Rae Harkness
12:00 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Or perhaps from companies that would like to open up shop in Georgia. I wouldn't want to open a new business in a state that ranks near the bottom in education. Ed reform in Georgia (and every other state) is an issue that touches everyone and all areas of business. No one seems to care about the money and time that educator groups and unions are devoting to stop passage of 1162.
Frank Jones
12:58 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Rae...Our low educational ranking is distorted simply by the number of students taking the SAT. As some have pointed out, many students take it simply to see if they qualify for the Hope Scholarship.,,maybe so. If you compare our results and participation rates, it's easy to see that top performing states have the best results while the state (including GA) which have the highest participation rates have the lowest results. The rankings have nothing to do with actual school performance.
Your last sentence is humurous as the same can be said of those supporting HR1162. As I've said many times before, we should all be working together to solve any and all problems in the traditional school system instead of wasting our time fighting each other.
However, we're fighting each other because special interests, big-business, for-profit management companies know that the best way to get their way is to divide us. United we stand, Divided was fall.
Thomas Hart
1:43 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
One additional consideration on the "Hope Scholarship effect"... There are 4 states that exceed us in participation rate on the SAT. 3 of those states also exceed us in performance.
Steely Dan
10:42 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
It's interesting. I agree of the irrelevancy of the SAT scores statistic but what's amazing is that...no matter how many billions we spend on GA public education ($7+ billion in 2012), these #s never really improve. At some point, shouldn't GA at least aspire to be the 'best of the worst' of the states that match our high SAT participation?
Instead, it's year after year of mediocrity, year after year of excuses, year after year of multi-billion-$$ ed. budgets, and year upon year of complaints that "We need more funding!!".
An increase in charter schools, esp. at the HS level cannot possibly make things worse here in woeful GA. 1162 will help make that a reality.
Elizabeth Hooper
1:15 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Again, dragging the entire state thru a consitutional amendment process so those pushing more charter schools can feel "more comfort" really borders on the absurd.It also isn't true. Please don't say in the same breathe that you're a fiscal conservative.
Thomas Hart
1:47 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
Deep breath...... I am for charter schools, school choice, taxpayer value, and the Public Charter School Amendment.... and .... I am a fiscal conservative ... and ... I don't expect you to understand that. One breath.
Steely Dan
10:38 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012
What "isn't true" is your belief that this will create some sort of additional burden for the GA taxpayer.
It will not.
If it passes, this amendment won't result in the single, solitary creation of a single gov't job. The new commission would be filled by existing, already-employed State DOE members. Any expenses they incur would be picked up by the charter school application process, not the tax payer.
12:58 am on Saturday, September 15, 2012
Do you not consider charter school employees government workers? If they are being paid by the State and they are in the State pension program, then are they not government workers?
Please show me where HB797 says the State Charter Commission will be made up of existing DOE members? Show me where it says how the new Commission will be paid for? I know where it is because I have read it, I just want you to show me so I know you have read it. Then I want you to read how they are funding these students and see if you truly understand it. It means MORE tax money will be spent to educate our kids. It means if you vote yes, you are OK with your local dollars going to the local TPS (because the state requires the local govt. fund that student even if they aren't there) AND the difference (and then some) going to the State Charter Student. It means that instead of your local money "following" your kid to their new school the county gets to keep it (actually has to keep it, they don't have a choice) and then your state tax money pays for your kid to go the their new school. They have "guaranteed" that the State money will not come out of the education budget for TPS k-12 but haven't stipulated where it will suddenly appear from. Gee, do you think it might mean higher taxes? And the mess in Dekalb, Clayton, APS gets to continue because our legislature has done nothing to stop it, yet your local tax dollars get to continue to be "misused".
Kara Martin
9:00 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
I want to start this off by saying that the bickering and name calling between those opposed and those in favor of the Charter Amendment is becoming more like the refereeing I do in my home with my two children then that of a debate among adults differing in opinions. If we all spent the same amount of time finding solutions to the educational problems facing our youth that we do in arguing about it we would be in a much better situation by this point. There is a need for Charter schools and this amendment as there is a need for traditional public schools and their funding. The solution is not to CHOOSE one vs. the other, but to find a way for both to exist and thrive. There are things that the Charter school does that work, perhaps focusing on the positives would help give a different perspective. Before I do so I want to address the issue of approval for state charter schools. As it is right now, since the Supreme Court Ruling, no new charter school applications have been approved. Applications that were given prior to this ruling were looked at and some were allowed. This was a temporary solution to give these worthy schools an opportunity. This was not a long term guarantee or approval process. This ruling specifically states that only local boards can approve charters. Simply stated, any school currently approved by the state will not be allowed to be reviewed by the state when it is time. It will be illegal according to the ruling! No more state approval!
MA Evans
9:54 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
Senator Chip Rogers (R) District 21 introduced HB1162. One of the goals of the Republican party with the help of the Koch brothers is to dismantle public education. That is the reason for this amendment.
Kara Martin
10:24 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
Here are a few of the facts surrounding Charter Schools:
- Charter schools are accountable. If a charter school is not performing then it is closed. Under this model a child does not attend a school that is failing him/her because the school ceases to exist..
- Teachers are on a yearly contract. This means that if a teacher is not providing the best possible educational experience to the child they can be let go. The teachers at Charters must perform and continue to challenge and help each of their students. There is no tenure. This enables Charter schools to hire and retain innovative, intelligent, enthusiastic teachers that continue to strive for the very best for each and every child academically.
- Charter schools are Public schools. This means that anyone can apply for enrollment at a charter school. If more applications are received then space available for students a lottery is performed. Basically like the lottery performed for Georgia pre-school spaces. Students are NOT hand picked nor are they turned away based on economic or racial status.
- Charter school believe that parent participation is a key ingredient to a child's success in school. Therefore parent participation is highly encouraged. There are many opportunities for parents to involve themselves in their child's education. Many Charters require parents to have a minimum of volunteer hours while their child is enrolled in school. These can be acquired in many ways:
Kara Martin
10:27 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
These include- Volunteering for school events, activities, fundraisers. PTC committee membership and volunteering. Donating materials or supplies. Photocopying teacher work sheets, cutting out things for teachers, room parents, setting up volunteer sign ups, emailing info to classroom parents, etc. Many of these hours can be done from home in the evening. Making the opportunity to gain your hours flexible for everyone.
Kara Martin
10:46 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
- Charter schools are run by a non-profit board. I will use CCA as an example. The charter for CCA is held by a non-profit board, known as the Local Governing Council or LGC. This board has hired a management group to oversee payroll, admin, facility maintenance, etc. The management company gets paid a fee to oversee these issues. The management company can be fired if it is not completing it's contract. The management company is employed much like the superintendent and the central office staff. The argument that for profit companies should not be used in Charters is an unfair statement unless you are also arguing that public schools should not be using any for profit companies as well, which they do.
- Each school gets a per pupil amount from the state and local government. That amount follows the student to whichever district or charter school they attend. If a child chooses to home school or private school that state money also does not go to the district. however the district does still continue to receive the local funding NOT the Charter school. Therefore the district school experiences lower class sizes, it allows for more individual teacher to student time, it actually gives more money per student because they are not only receiving the per pupil rates for that child enrolled but an additional local tax per pupil amount for each child no longer enrolled.
Kara Martin
10:49 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
- But most importantly it benefits the children! Many of the children attending charters are receiving a type of education that they were not at district schools. That is not to say district schools offer a poor education (some do but some do not). It is saying that the way a child is taught at times requires a different strategy. Therefore the children that were failing in district schools, under this new style of teaching, are flourishing. Is this not the main focus? Helping those who would have been a statistic lost to the world a chance at success and greatness. So please, tell me what we exactly are opposing?
MA Evans
11:47 am on Monday, September 17, 2012
There are some now fighting against charter schools - academics, teachers and civil rights groups. Stanford University researchers found that 17% of these schools out-perform comparable public schools while 37% under-perform. Those statistics aren't encouraging. Teachers don't have a voice in these schools because they bypass unions. These teachers are 132% more likely to leave than public school teachers. There is also new evidence that charter schools are racially isolated. If charter schools were teacher led, had a diverse population and provided a superior education then they would be a good alternative.
Steely Dan
12:13 am on Thursday, September 20, 2012
Any system that bypasses unions is a good system. Unions are completely, totally worthless and full of lecherous, lazy people with no incentive nor desire to perform. I.E. Chicago. Unions often protect & continue paying pedophile teachers, due to 'contractual obligations'.
Last I checked, GA teachers don't have a voice because they 'bypass unions' too. That's a credit to GA teachers. Keep unions out of GA!!
PS: Inner city public schools are some of the most racially-isolated schools on planet Earth. Visit LA or NYC and see for yourself.
Frank Jones
2:58 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
Kara, I agree that we should all be focusing on making our schools better for the children. However, we differ on the approach! You wrote a nice series of posts, but they are flawed and use mis-information/propaganda to present your case. I'll tackle each one...
1. "There is a need" for charters. Truth is that there is a perceived need for charters by a small but vocal group of parents. Truth is that there is a necessary need for charters by for-profit management groups trying to make money.
2. "The solution is not to choose one vs. the other". That's a matter of opinion.
3. "If a charter school is not performing then it is closed." Please note that "performing" is a relative term that isn't black and white and determining whether a charter is performing can and will be argued. A politically appointed board, influenced by politicians who are influenced by lobbyists will make the call.
4. If a charter school is closed, where are the students supposed to go? Oh, I know, a traditional public school that is required to accept ALL STUDENTS.
5. "Teachers are on a yearly contract..." which enables charters "to hire and retain innovative, intelligent, enthusiastic teachers". Many people like security and the ability to multi-year plan. Many innovative, intelligent, enthusiastic people would frown upon the insecurity you're praising and seek employment where they plan for a future.
Frank Jones
3:07 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
6. "Charters are public schools" where students are not "turned away based on economic or racial status". Charters are technically public schools simply since they receive public funding. However, they aren't truly public schools which must accept ALL STUDENTS no matter their situation. For instance, charters are not required to take ALL STUDENTS and may exclude students based upon their physical and/or mental abilities.
7. Charter schools believe in parent participation, it is "highly encouraged" and "many charters require parents to ... volunteer hours." For starters, "highly encouraged" and "required" are contradictory terms. You mentioned ways that parents can volunteer time such as photocopying, cutting out things, emailing info, and such. These things are back office administrative tasks and are not involvement activities in a child's education. These items are simply unpaid labor and cost savings for the for-profit management company. Further, you say that parents can buy their way out of there volunteer hours by buying things for the school. That's akin to taxation or a tuition assessment...Not exactly public education.
Frank Jones
3:16 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
8. "Charter schools are run by a non-profit board" which hires a management company and for an example you cite CCA. In CCA's case, you have the facts all wrong. Charter Schools USA set up the Georgia foundation, set up the non-profit board and selected the board members. Charter School USA hired itself via its hand-selected board members. This was not a "grass-roots"/ground-up endeavour but instead, a top-down/corporate planned school.
9. "The management company gets paid a fee...can be fired...is employed much like the superintendent and the central office staff". It is hirely unlikely that the management company will be fired in CCA's case since the board was hand-picked by the management company. Further, it is unlikely that Charter Schools USA will be fired as it controls the real estate. It is also false to compare a management company to the Superintendent and central office since the management company not only pays its people but also keeps a sizable portion of the fee as PROFITS. The superintendent and central office receive compensation only. There is no separate profit motive.
Frank Jones
3:30 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
10. "The argument that for profit companies should not be used in charters is an unfair statement" since traditional schools hire third parties. That claim is false because in the case of traditional schools, the school determines the need, specifies the terms, has open bidding, budgets the funds and does all of this in the open subject to public review and oversight. Charters on the other hand, does everything behind closed doors and without open bidding or self-dealing rules....it's like having the fox guard the hen-house.
11. Funding - you argue that local state and local funding should follow the student and that if local funding does not follow the student to charters, that the traditional schools benefit. That is certainly one way to local at the situation, but there is another valid way of analyzing the situation. It can be argued that the school system knows that a certain percentage of students will be home schooled, attend private, church or charter schools and then reduces the school tax rate. As such, everyone in the county receives a tax break for each student not attending a traditional school.
12. On funding, it is likewise a valid argument to claim that since the state is now funding charters supplemental amounts (to supplement for local money & capital expenditures), that the state will either cut its share of funding per student or implement a tax increase in order to have enough funds to cover the additional costs. There's only one pool of money.
Frank Jones
3:44 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
13. "The children that were failing in district schools, under this new style of teaching (charter-style), are flourishing." You claim that charter schools have a special type of education not found in traditional schools and that failing students are no longer failing. Are you saying that ALL failing students are now "A-B" students? Are you saying that ALL failing students are no longer failing? Are you saying that no A-B student has slipped to C-D-F?
Obviously, I support public schools and believe that public schools should be administrered by a locally-elected and accountable school board. I support charters and altenative schools as long as they are set-up, managed, or approved by the local school board which retains ultimate oversight. I do not support the commercialization of public schools and the underhanded political moves by the state legislature.
I wish that you and the other Pro-Profit parents would work within the existing system to help improve schools for all students, instead of insisting on a separate system that will incur greater costs (short- and long-term) than the current system. It's a shame that so much effort is being spent dividing us as opposed to uniting us.
John Konop
4:00 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
Regular Get Schooled blog readers know Cherokee businessman John Konop as an astute commenter on the economics of education. He's also a great debater as he focuses on the facts and does not get carried away with politics or ideology.
And he posts under his name, which signals that he stands behind his comments.
Konop has sparked debate in Cherokee County over questions on the funding of a charter school there and who gets stuck with the bill. Konop raised these issues with the Cherokee County School Board at a recent meeting.
Here is a followup letter he sent board member Michael Geist:
Dear Mr. Geist,
According to a recent newspaper article, it seems you are still very confused about why you're getting so much negative feedback about the lack of fiscal controls in the charter school amendment that you support. I will once again clarify the issues by explaining how the Cherokee Charter Academy (CCA) was funded and how the current charter school amendment fails protect tax payers.
• CCA's owner/operators (a private company) were given over $1million of taxpayer money as start-up capital........
Read More
Thomas Hart
4:33 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012
I read the AJC article. Make sure to read deep into the comments to see the well constructed and asserted arguments that countered Mr. Konop and his considerable intellect.
I was at the BOE meeting where Mr. Konop attacked Mr. Geist by name from the public microphone. Board policy states that the public is to address the board as a whole and not address the individual members when given the mic. Mr. Geist endured Mr. Konop's pointed words with dignity. The real shame is that the BOE Chairman chose to let Mr. Konop continue and only spoke up to clarify that most of the board was in agreement with Mr. Konop instead of preserving the decorum necessary for public comment. I think Mr. Chapman owes Mr. Geist an apology.
June Jones
10:52 am on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Mr Hart, I think Mike Chapman should apologize to the entire county for his actions and lack of respect for the parents and to his fellow board member. He is angry with Mr. Geist because he supports the Charter Academy. Mr Chapman regularly fails to be articulate or conduct himself in a professional manner. Unfortunately the people spewing comments on this page have only a fraction of the information they need to make an informed decision on this amendment.
Steely Dan
11:42 am on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Meanwhile. Dekalb County's local BOE is being investigated by SACS and may lose accreditation due to school board mismanagement.
This is the sort of Local Board that Frank & Mrs. Hooper wishes we'd all just "work within the existing system" to enact change. A Board that ""isn't a board anymore. It's actually nine political leaders who have their own alliances and allegiances."
"They pursue their own interests, in spite of what the system needs. It's their interests that are in charge of what happens,", according to the SACS President Mark Elgart.
These are the exact sorts of people running most county BOEs and are poster-child reasons why charters are needed and why the current model of Local Board Cronyism that Frank Jones supports must be overhauled. But since that won't be happening anytime soon (too many Billions $$$ at stake!!), 1162 must pass to provide alternatives to the complete, total joke that is the GA public educational system.
Frank Jones
3:37 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Steely...Here you go again, twisting my words for your own agenda. As I've posted before, the state should not be getting involved in local school districts if they are working and not problematic. As I've stated, if there is gross mismanagement, fraud, corruption or illegal acts being committed by the board, then yes, the state should get involved.
Based upon the link you provided, SACS has received "allegations of school board mismanagement". At this time, it's just allegations. Until SACS visits the school system, completes their review, and reports their findings, you should not convict and execute the board. If SACS does find problems, I have no issue with the state implementing changes as reasonably necessary.
One of the things that amazes me with your posts is your belief that all public school board members and all school administrators are in it for "the money" and for "their own interests"...as if the for-profit charter school management companies aren't in it for the money or for their own interests. Gee Whiz!
Let's use a little logic for a moment. Whose more likely to be interested in the welfair of the children? A) A for-profit company trying to maximize profits while residing outside of state (i.e. not vested in the local community) or B) Citizens residing in the local community who have not ulterior profit motive? Ding, Ding, Ding...We have a winner "B"!
Steely Dan
10:59 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
Frank, Quit with the lies about 'twisting words for my agenda'. You've been crystal-clear that you believe parents should work with local school boards. Don't cowardly back off your own wording now. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire (as we saw in APS). Yet you feel that parents should just be trapped in failing school systems rather than have an alternative.
Indeed, let's use a "little logic". Who's more interested in the "welfair" (<-- nice public ed. spelling there!) of children, Frank? Those who LOSE THEIR JOBS if they don't educate the children? Or the local superintendents & admins who simply stick their greedy hands out for More Funding & 'step raises' when they repeatedly fail to educate 1 of 3 GA HS kids or their schools fail to meet CRCT standards?
There is no accountability whatsoever in GA public education. Locally, Petruzielo cares not about educating kids and why should he - he gets his fatcat gov't salary of $300K & monthly vehicle stipend REGARDLESS. Conversely, those in private & charter schools LOSE THEIR JOBS if their schools perform at the level many GA schools do. Logically, it's damn obvious who's more concerned: The people with the most to lose if they fail.
It's called "accountability", Frank. You liberal worshipers of Government have no idea of the definition of the word. Nor do you give a crap about educating children - only More Funding.
Or is this me just "twisting your words" again?
Rae Harkness
11:04 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
There is no accountability whatsoever in GA public education. Locally, Petruzielo cares not about educating kids and why should he - he gets his fatcat gov't salary of $300K & monthly vehicle stipend REGARDLESS. Conversely, those in private & charter schools LOSE THEIR JOBS if their schools perform at the level many GA schools do. Logically, it's damn obvious who's more concerned: The people with the most to lose if they fail.
@Steely Dan Totally the truth...When one of our charter teachers isn't up to par, they are gone that week or month...not allowed to continue to fail children year after year!
Steely Dan
11:32 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
Frank, what about the poverty-stricken parents you've cited as examples in the past?
What choice have they 'always had'? Or am I just 'twisting your words' again?
And your example left out:
D) Local superintendents with signed contracts and 6-figure salaries that are not affected by a lack of student performance.
Even in your example, the logical answer is 'A', as no for-profit company lasts long if it loses its "customers" (here, those are the children they'd be failing to educate, which would result in their 'business' (private/charter school) being closed. For-profit companies don't have the luxury of begging for more tax dollars....unless it's Government Motors begging your hero president Obama for more of my money!)
Rae Harkness
12:11 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
@Thomas.....you said that so well, I gotta say, "AMEN"!
Thomas Hart
12:40 am on Friday, September 21, 2012
Choice - an abundance or variety from which to choose
Chapman's Choice – if you don't like it you can move
Hobson's Choice – the choice of taking either that which is offered or nothing; the absence of a real alternative.
Sophie's Choice - a choice between two persons or things that will result in the death or destruction of the person or thing not chosen.
Frank Jones' Choice - a chilling combination of Hobson's and Sophie's choices where the student/teacher/parent/taxpayer should just accept their fate and mediocrity is ok.
Diane Loupe
4:38 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Indeed, not all Georgia public schools are failing. My daughter attended Decatur public schools from pre-k to 12th grade, got a Zell Miller scholarship to UGA and started college with 16 credits due to AP credits and an innovative Spanish program. It's worth it to notes that our school taxes are the highest in the state, and we are now turning away parents who want to pay tuition to attend our schools. Also, some DeKalb Public Schools are excellent and the county has granted some charters. Some of those have not been successful. I note that Steely Dan is lobbing his often erroneous jabs at public schools under a pseudonym. If you truly stand behind what you say, use your real name?
Steely Dan
11:12 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
I don't trust public school teachers to not retaliate against my son, Diane. Some of them are quite petty people, incapable of separating a parent's opinion from their job of educating the parent's child. It's OK - they'll get their annual raises no matter how poorly they do their job. There's no accountability.
I'm sure some public schools do an adequate job of providing an education. Heck, a stopped clock is right twice a day. But I've learned over the years that some of us simply have higher standards of education than others. For us, 'adequate' isn't enough. For example, some fans of GA public schools think that a 66% statewide graduation rate is worthy of praise and is adequate. Others like me see major room for improvement. For unknown reasons, we're scorned by many GA public school supporters for desiring excellence, rather than mediocrity. For $7 taxpayer Billion annually, we should all demand better.
I'm glad that your daughter's school met your standards. My school district hasn't come close to meeting mine.
Rae Harkness
11:15 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
Nor mine. My area high school graduates less than 50%.
Diane Loupe
4:46 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Also, I'd a school system is truly dysfunctional, creating a charter school may help some students, but what about all those other students left behind? Wouldn't a better amendment be one that allowed the state to replace an entire school board if certain standards weren't met. We decry teaching to the test, and the Atlanta troubles show the downfall of high stakes testing. I'm not sure I am against charter schools s much as I am against this particular amendment, which solves a nonexistent problem and is likely to divert scarce dollars away from public schools. (already a mechanism in place to approve charters if local school district will not.)
Steely Dan
11:22 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
Diane, how has more money helped public schools to this point? We're spending $7 billion annually yet not graduating 1 of 3 HS students. Diverting taxpayer dollars to an alternative cannot possibly make things worse. We're already at the bottom-tier of American educational rankings. We've DOUBLED per-child spending in GA the past few decades...yet our metrics have embarrassingly decreased over that time period.
I know that "More money! More taxes" is the mantra of the liberal but at some point, adults need to admit that an idea is a failure and come up with something new. That time is now. Passing 1162 is a step in the right direction. Continuing to throw money at the same supers & admins already failing our children and expecting different results without accountability is complete, total insanity.
5:26 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
I pay property taxes in Dekalb AND Cherokee. My kids attend CCA. I'm disgusted by what is "allegedly" going on in Dekalb County, but I'm not surprised.
Diane Loupe
5:59 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Hope, I'm not defending DeKalb, by any means. They need a good housecleaning. But some charter schools, or voucher schools, can be just as bad. http://www.southerneddesk.org/louisiana-voucher-schools-curriculum-controversy/
Leo Smith
3:36 pm on Saturday, September 22, 2012
That's true. One can argue about the track records of either. Looking at areas where performance on CRCT scores and violence is a problem, and comparing independent charters with traditional publics in that same area, there is no argument. The charters help those students best! Apples to Apples. But here's another important difference. When an independent public charter doesn't meet its objectives, charter law REQUIRES it to close. The children are that important. When a traditional public school has high crime and low graduation rates, they become a perennial feeder system for prison. Only when an extraordinary leader/teacher, willing to catch the heart and trust of caring parents, is able to push past the alienating bureaucracy of school boards do we see school improvement. Some believe that school independence, on a level field, with a fair share, is exactly what the current system stakeholders are afraid of. Why else would you stop parents from giving it their own best effort? Are they suggesting that a governing board of parents, community leaders and teachers are less capable than the average school board?
I've got a penny stock that only pays 4 out of 10 times. Few investors would go for that when odds favor more current, effective, and promising investment methods. A good charter school removes the shackles from a good teacher, a good traditional school has a good teacher fighting everyday against a system inflexible to all children's needs.
Rae Harkness
10:44 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
I also pay prop taxes in DeKalb and they don't go to our charter school. Ideas to help all students left behind? Yes, that needs to be addressed, but to anyone that looked at the news yesterday...loaded guns at 2 DeKalb schools...video of fight at another...resource officer with broken ankle...come on, people! This doesn't come close to education. Some DeKalb Schools are becoming incubators for the DeKalb County Jail!
Rae Harkness
11:20 pm on Wednesday, September 19, 2012
I am so proud of my daughter...she was a guest speaker for the Brighter Georgia Coalition today in support of the Georgia Charter School Amendment. She will be a great leader.