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Public discussion on tribal jurisdiction held in Isle Mark Dayton and Gen Olson featured speakers long-since disestablished. The U.S. By Julie Shortridge Approximately 70 people gathered at the Isle government center Saturday, August 15 to hear a panel of eight speakers discuss issues of tribal jurisdiction, authority and sovereignty. The public discussion was sponsored by the Lake Mille Lacs Association, Inc., a group of landowners in the Lake Mille Lacs area formed to protect the interests of the lake, watershed and landowners. The 2 '/2 hour meeting included a few minutes of Association administrative matters, including a vote to approve the budget, nomination of officers, and review ofa spending report. The Association has been concerned about the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe government's efforts to expand its regulatory authority over the old 61,000 acre Mille Lacs reservation established in the 1855 treaty, which has been Environmental Protection Agency and the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency have gone along with the Band's claims. Some landowners and citizens in the area are concerned about the state and federal government granting this expanded authority over the area to the Band because non- Indians are not allowed to vote in Band elections, would have no say in Band policies, and would have limited input into decisions affecting the area. Some also view this as an effort by the Band and federal governmentto re-establish the old 61,000 acre reservation. TheU.S. SupremeCourtruled in 1912 that the Mille Lacs Band had no claim to over 29,000 acres disestablished as reservation land under U.S. public land laws prior to the 1889 Nelson Act. As for the remaining 32,000 acres, the Supreme Court ru led that the Band was entitled to recover damages, arid the CourtofClaimspaidover$711,000 for those acres. Again just three months ago in the Cass County v. Leech Lake Band of Chippewa case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Nelson Act of 1889 extinguished Indian title to all reservations in Minnesota except for White Earth and Red Lake. All Minnesota Chippewaat that time were expected to move to these two reservations, but not all did and a group of Chippewacontinued to live in the Mille Lacs area. In a letter to the Lake Mille Lacs Association dated November27,1995, Governor Carlson said, "The historical boundary lines ofthe reservation are not appropriate for use today in determining jurisdiction ofthe Mille Lacs Band in relatipn to state and local regulatory authority." The Governor went on to say that the Mille Lacs Band government has authority and Discussion/to pg. 6 Press/ON to file suit against Mille Lacs, pg. 1 Public discussion on tribal jurisdiction held in Isle, pg. 1 Gaming Commission to probe Shooting Star, pg. 1 Today's Elders endured much in struggle for survival, pg. 3 Press/ON banned from Bois Forte reservation, pg. 4 Mille Lacs waiver of sovereign immunity agreement, pg. 8 Voice ofthe People e-mail. firstname.lastname@example.com Gaming Commission to probe Shooting Star by Gary Blair According to sources who spoke with an investigator from the National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC) on Thursday, August 13, the White Earth reservation's Shooting StarCasino will be probed for management and fiscal irregularities. "We were told that NIGC was responding to complaints about the legal status of the casino manager's contractand the financial management of the casino. The investigatortold us that he has the authority to review any documents that he wants to see. We were told that he (investigator) would be going to the casino located at Mahnomen, MN within.one week to ten days," the source said. Sources say the investigatortold them that he had just arrived from South Dakota, had bought a home and was helping to set up a local NIGC office in the Twin Cities. A source said the investigator told them, "We (NIGC) also received complaints about the financial and accounting practices at the (Shooting Star) casino." Starting in June 1998, White Earth enrollee Roberta Brown sent the first of two complaints to NIGC headquarters in Washington, DC. Brown's letters, contained copies of casino manager Raymond J. Brenny's management contracts with the reservation's tribal council. Brown questioned whether Brenny's management contracts with the reservation's tribal council had been approved by the federal gaming commission. Contacted on Wednesday, Brenny said, "I suppose he (investigator) will contact the (tribal) council first." When asked for his thoughts on the probe, Brenny answered, "No comment." Attempts to contact White Earth interim chairman John Buckanaga or secretary/treasurer, Erma Vizenor for comment were unsuccessful. Vizenor's secretary, Charlene Hanson, said she would relay the information to them. Native American Press Ojibwe mews We Support Equal Opportunity For All People Founded in 1988 Volume 10 Issue 45 August 21 U888 | A weekly publication. Copyright Native American Press, 1988 Tribe spent more than $500,000 defending former chief OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - It cost more than $500,000 in legal fees to defend former Choctaw Chief Hollis Roberts on sexual assault charges, but none ofthe money used deprived tribal programs, officials said. According to internal documents obtained by The Daily Oklahoman, the tribe shelled out $552,298.99 in fees between December 1995 and Roberts' trial in June 1997. "Given the amount of time and work those lawyers put in, that probably isn't an unreasonable amount," Bob Rabon, tribe attorney, told the newspaper. Roberts was the tribe's chief from 1978 until his conviction on three counts of sexually abusing female employees. He was sentenced in April to more than 11 years in prison. Tribe spokeswoman Judy Allen said no federal funds were used to pay lawyers. The money came from an administrative account and didn't deprive any programs aimed at helping Choctaws, she said. A federal Bureau oflndian Affairs oft icial in Muskogee said that with few exceptions, it is illegal for a tribe to spend its federal funds on attorney fees. No tribal funds have been paid for Roberts' appeal or for any other legal work for Roberts after his conviction June 6, 1997, Ms. Allen said. A few days after Roberts was indicted in June 1995, his 12-member tribal council voted to pay his legal bills. The Oklahoma City firm of Fellers Snider Blankenship Bailey & Tippens was paid $431,739.39. Roberts' two main trial attorneys, Burck Bailey and Warren Bickford, work for the firm. The Stipe Law Firm in McAlester was paid $54,671.60. One of that firm's lawyers, Eddie Harper, was part ofthe defense s team for a time. The tribe also paid three out-of-state firms, none of which is listed with the Oklahoma Bar Association Gordon W. Bulla & Associates, $33,966.56; National Legal Research Group, $16,529.94; and Dennis W. Arrow, $15,391.50. Ms. Allen said she-didn't know what work they performed in Roberts' defense. Mark Dayton, candidate for Minnesota Governor and Gen Olson, a Minnesota State Senator and candidate for Lieutenant Governor on the ticket with Norm Coleman, were two of eight keynote speakers at an August 15 meeting in Isle, MN ofthe Lake Mille Lacs Association, Inc., a group of landowners in the Lake Mille Lacs area formed to protect the interests ofthe lake, watershed and landowners. Press/ON to file suit against Mille Lacs Chippewa Tribe meeting he was cov- Couple challenge Crow taxing authority BILLINGS (AP)- A federal judge has been asked to decide what authority Indian tribes have to tax nonmembers living and doing business on the reservations. InasuitfiledthisweekinU.S. District Court, James "Putt" Thompson and his wife, Julia, owners of the Custer Battlefield Trading Post at Crow Agency, renewed their longstanding challenge of taxes assessed by the Crow Indian tribe. The couple charge the tribe has no authority under federal laws or treaties to impose its taxes on non-Indians doing business on private land owned by non-Indians. The issue ofthe tribal tax is currently pending in tribal court. In the past, the Thompsons would have had to exhaust all their tribal court remedies before taking their case to a federal judge. But their lawyer, Charles Moses, said Thursday that recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions indicate that tribal courts can be bypassed in some cases. Moses has asked Chief U.S. District Court Judge Jack Shanstrom to assume jurisdiction and stay tribal court action in the case. Moses said that if the case remains in tribal court, it could be there for years. Taxes, interest and penalties claimed by the Crow Tribe could grow to exceed the value of the business and ultimately destroy the business, the complaint said. The lawsuit also contends the tribe is considering property taxes on non-Indian-owned ranches and farms within the reservation. The Thompsons contend that in light of their situation and the potential problems that future attempts to tax such lands create, ajudgment defining thetribe'sauthority is imperative. Dale Whiteof Boulder, Colo., the tribe's attorney, said he had not seen the complaint and could not comment. Tribal officials were unavailable for comment. (NAP/ON) The Native American Press/Ojibwe News served notice this week to Mille Lacs County and the Mille Lacs Reservation Tribal Police that the newspaper intends to sue them over the arrest ofa reporter at an Oct. 22, 1997 MCT meeting at the reservation's Grand Casino and Hotel. Claiming damages in excess of $50,000, the notice alleges "false imprisonment, harassment, police misconduct, discrimination and violations of the claimants' First Amendment rights." Reporter Jeff Armstrong was arrested by tribal police and jailed by the county when he verbally challenged an order to leave a Minnesota ering for the Press. While held in the Mille Lacs County jail, the reporter was denied the right to contact an attorney and to file a petition for a writ of Habeas Corpus. Armstrong had argued that Tribal Executive Committee president Norman Deschampe's order was in violation of the Indian Civil Rights Act and that the state statute creating the reservation police force failed to obtain the referendum consent of tribal members, as is required under federal and tribal law. Although the reporter refilled the petition after his release, Armstrong alleges that the county deliberately blocked a hearing on the merits ofthe petition. A U.S. district court dismissed Armstrong's federal Habeas Corpus petition pending the exhaustion of state court proceedings, without addressing the substance ofthe petition. Mille Lacs County never filed a written response to Armstrong's assertions in more than 8 months of litigation, and only offered cursory oral arguments in support of state jurisdiction. The state district court in Mille Lacs ultimately dismissed the case for lack of jurisdiction, but the state and county failed to appeal the ruling for fear of the consequences of an adverse appeals court ruling, (see pg. 5 for notice) FBI seeks suspect in Red Lake slaying Hemp controversy growing on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation By Cathy Onstad Bemidji Pioneer The suspect in a Red Lake Reservation homicide remains at large, officials said Wednesday. James Allen Roy, 33, is accused of shooting and killing Charles "Sonny" Reinhard Dolson, 41, with a .22-cal iber handgun Saturday evening at the Dolson home south of Redlake, states aU.S. District Court complaint. The FBI obtained the murder warrant shortly after the shooting, as Roy fled, abandoning his pickup truck where .22-calibercasings were found similar to ones also found at the Dolson residence, the complaint said. Dolson's wife, Barbara, told police she saw a dark blue pickup pull into the Dolson driveway along Highway 89 south of town. SIOUX FALLS, S.D. (AP) - Some members ofthe Oglala Sioux Tribe are moving forward with plans to cultivate hemp, even if they have to take the Drug Enforcement Administration to federal court. Hemp has grown in the wild for decades on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, despite the DEA's repeated attempts spraying and dousing with chemicals, setting fields on fire to wipe it out. Grow.ing hemp, which is a cousin to marijuana, is illegal. The Land-Use Association, a group of tribal members in the small reservation town of Slim Buttes, wants to turn the tall hemp stalks into paper, mats, construction blocks for housing and other products. The group says the money-making venture would create jobs and homes in the impoverished area. Milo Yellow Hair, the tribe's vice president, said the reservation has struggled with the issue for at least two years and finally decided to proceed with the hemp project after other economic- development initiatives failed. "Now we are left to tackle the so- called gray area initiatives," he said. "When they hear the word hemp, they think marijuana. Then they think drug use, and then it becomes a pol ice state. But that's not what we want to do." Hemp and marijuana are both varieties ofthe cannabis sativa plant, but hemp typically contains less than 1 percent ofthe narcotic chemical THC. Marijuana plants contain 10 percent to 20 percent THC, which makes pot smokers high. Two weeks ago, the Oglala Sioux Tribal Council changed a tribal law to allow for making products out of hemp. The revised code says a plant with less than 1 percent of THC is considered industrial hemp and is legal. But according to federal law, growing hemp no matter how low its THC content is the same as growing marijuana. And the same criminal penalties apply to people growing either plant. Anyone who wants to grow hemp plants legally for industrial use must get permission from the DEA, said Karen Schreier, U.S. attorney for South Dakota. "The same ru les apply on and off the reservation," she said. Yellow Hair said the tribe will apply for a DEA certificate'of registration to grow the hemp, but the process is not easy. Schreier said she does not think the DEA has ever approved an application to grow hemp plants. Larry Johnson, resident agent-in- charge ofthe DEA office in Sioux Falls, said the tribe's chances are not good. "I seriously doubt that they will be able to meet the requirements," he said. Tom Cook, who is in charge ofthe Land-Use Association's hemp project, said asking the DEA for permission would be a "useless endeavor." For now, the tribal group plans to proceed without breaking the law. He Slaying/to pg. 6 Judge rules against state on jurisdiction By 1910, much of that land had been The case originated in 1993 whe Hemp/to pg. 3 SIOUX FALLS, S.D. (AP)- A large portion ofthe original Yankton Sioux Indian Reservation remains "Indian country" that is under tribal and federal jurisdiction, ajudge ruled. U.S. District Judge Lawrence Piersol's decision is a setback for the state, which has exercised jurisdiction over the estimated 260,000 acres in Charles Mix County for nearly a century. The ruling "extends the confusion" and will be appealed. Attorney General Mark Barnett said Saturday. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in January that about 168.000 acres of the former reservation has not been Indian country since 1894, when the tribe sold it to non-Indians. Its ruling affirmed state jurisdiction over that land. But the high court did not address another 260,000 acresof "allotted land" which, in the process of 'breaking up the reservation, had been given to tribal members for private ownership. By sold by tribal members to non-Indians, Barnett said. "This is a victory for those who believe the solemn treaties made by the U.S. government should be lived up to," said James Abourezk, a Sioux Falls attorney who represented the Yankton Sioux Tribe in the case. He went to court to keep the state from exercising jurisdiction on the 260,000 acres in question. Barnett said problems of jurisdiction are compounded because the land is scattered all over. "It's a complete patchwork which frankly is the worst possible scenario for law enforcement and that means for the people who live there, because when a crime occurs you effectively need a surveyor," Barnett said. "Even in the middle of the city of Lake Andes the jurisdiction boundaries are all over the place, which is an impossible situation for law enforcement." hen the Yankton Sioux Tribe tried to stop construction of a landfill within the reservation boundaries. Abourezk said he doesn't think the U.S. Supreme Courtwill hear the case again. "Because the high court refused to touch the allotted areas, it's clear that they believe the treaty of 1858, which set out the boundaries, still stands, with the exception of the ceded (sold) areas," Abourezk said. Barnett thinks otherwise. "The U.S. Supreme Court, as a general rule, will not decide anything more than they have to to resolve the matter in front of them. In this case they felt they could rule on the deeded land, land which actually was deeded in 1894 and sold to homesteaders," Barnett said. "The one thing that probably all the parties could agree on is that the case needs finality," he said.
Object Description
Title | The Ojibwe News / Native American Press (Bemidji, Minnesota), 1998-08-21 |
Preceding Titles | The Ojibwe News; The Native American Press; |
Edition | Volume 10, Issue 45 |
Date of Creation | 1998-08-21 |
Publishing Agency | Native American Press Company (Bemidji, Minnesota) |
Language | English |
Minnesota Reflections Topic | American Indians |
Item Type | Text |
Item Physical Format | Newspapers |
Formal Subject Headings |
Ojibwa Indians Community newspapers Indians of North America -- Newspapers |
Locally Assigned Subject Headings | American Indians; Native Americans; Ojibway; Ojibwe |
Minnesota City or Township | Bemidji |
Minnesota County | Beltrami |
State or Province | Minnesota |
Country | United States |
Contributing Organization | Bemidji State University, 1500 Birchmont Drive NE, Bemidji, Minnesota 56601-2699 |
Rights Management | Content and images in this collection may be reproduced and used freely without written permission only for educational purposes. Any other use requires the express written consent of Bemidji State University and the Associated Press. All uses require an |
Local Identifier | bdj_1998 |
LCCN | sn 2001061871 |
OCLC Control Number | 37486420 |
Fiscal Sponsor | Funding provided to the Minnesota Digital Library through the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund, a component of the Minnesota Clean Water, Land and Legacy constitutional amendment, ratified by Minnesota voters in 2008. |
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subset: commoncrawl


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Bran Mak Morn wrote:What is a "White Dragon Druid?" I was discussing druidry with someone and they asked me this. I also seen this on the on a thread. Is is some kind of racist gobbledegoop?
Were the Druids themselves "racists" ? Are some modern day Druids ? Like all religious and tribal traditions known to mankind, they certainly practised a form of ancestor worship, hence the elaborate funeral rites and tombs they constructed. But the Druids were precisely the most cosmopolitan members of their tribes and had an ecumenical outlook, which led them to be active as peacemakers and practitioners of non-violence. There is a difference between a "benign racism" based on love and non-violence, and a "virulent racism" which is based on hatred and violence.
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I will never attend another AA meeting; I will never change my mind.
You will never get to walk into another AA club again.
You will never get to go to the Friday morning AA meeting again.
You will never get to brag about how long you have been sober again.
You will never get to rescue another alcoholic again.
You will never get another call from people you know in AA again.
You will never get to read the Big Book again.
You will never get to feel the power you have over the many who fail in AA again.
You will never get to pontificate at the meetings again.
You will never be the big Guru again.
You will never have the attention that you get at AA meeting again.
You will never be asked for your advice again.
You will never get to forgive those who fail again.
You will never get to go to meeting with other alcoholics again.
You will never get to go to the AA conventions again.
You will never get to start another AA group again.
You will never get to greet the members as they come in the door again.
You will never get to feel that they will be glad they knew you again.
You will never get to go to the Christmas eve or New Years eve all night meetings again.
You will never get to think they will say what a good AA you were when you die.
You will never get to go to the 7 am meeting again.
You will never get to start over in AA again.
You will never be asked to give an open talk again.
You will never be the chairperson at the group again.
You will never be the coffee maker at the meeting again.
You will never be a sponsor to the new person again.
Why don't you do this for several months and then go. Just think how glad they will be to see you again.
You don't really want to stop going to {AA} now do you?
I think that about covers it.
I must have missed that show. I don't know Keeper or anything about her, but she lost her son? I think Monica might've mentioned this to me at some point, but not in detail. Tell me that Clara didn't just blame this woman for not checking up enough on someone who caused her son's death. I'm asking, because I don't know, and really hope that didn't just happen.
PIE, Keeper's son started drinking when he was a teenager. He went to AA and got a sponsor. Keeper asked around as to the reputation of this guy because they were new in town. People knew he was a child molester but refused to disclose that information. Her son was raped and murdered by this guy. For a long time it was unknown who the murderer was. The way he was caught was he went to rehab and showed some of his personal child pornography and the person reported it. It was discovered he was part of a child pornography ring that was preying on people in AA. That's what clara's defending.
Troll free AA critical forum
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
OMG....that's just one of the most awful things I've ever heard. He was murdered? Good lord. How horrible. No one disclosed this guy's crimes? How sick. So, if people don't do a full background check on someone who ends up....murdering them or their family members it somehow makes them culpable? Seriously? Sorry, that's a bit too just world fallacy for me.
It was horrible. Just a very sad story. Actually, Keeper had signs along the way. A woman she had asked about the guy told her that she wouldn't do it, but she didn't disclose what she knew about him. That would have been enough for me. Another AA left her son property work 700K. I would have wondered a great deal why someone would do that. It was just bad, awful, egregious... all the way around. Forntunately, the man took photos of his atrocities and a woman in rehab stole them and took them to the police when she was released. Another man ended up killing the perp before he could be tried.
I am hardly defending it, Cause. You are simply trying to make it about me when it isn't.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
But nothing about the AA group that vouched for this sick fucks credibility???? I suppose you want Keeper to look at her part in it. No, that's OK, you do it for her:
"Keeper had signs along the way"
"She didn't disclose what she knew about him. That would have been enoufh for me"
"Another AA left her son property work (worth" 70k. I would have wondered".
You know just the right things to make a woman that had the worst possible thing that could ever happen to her, feel guilty on top of it. Typical AA. Sickening.
Check out below. Clearly a reminder how insensitive you are:
"I thought something should have been asked of Keeper, and my question would have been to ask her why she never thought it was weird that her son had been given a 700k inheritance by someone he didn't really know for long and wasn't related to... I can't tell you how much on my radar those people would have been. I also don't know why Keeper wouldn't run her own check on the man. There have been online capabilities for a long time, used primarily for employment"
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara won't see anything wrong with that and say so in the same sentence she says she has not been brainwashed. I really don't think she understands what she's saying. It's a sort of "protect the hive" mentality where nothing else matters. Don't be too hard on her. "She is not at fault. She was probably born that way"
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
Well, Keeper is the one that mentioned asking the woman about the sponsor because she thought she knew him from a previous state and that the woman was mysterious. Why am I to dispute what Keeper herself said? Why had her son been gifted so extravagantly?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Jesus. No one should've let this man sponsor anyone, if even allowing him to be in the group at all! What was wrong with these people? Too busy keeping "their side of the street clean" to bother with a bloody child molester sponsoring someone? What the hell?!?!?
I am not sure what the woman knew or had heard or how reliable she thought the info might be, but Keeper indicated that she asked her because the woman and the guy had lived in the same place in Florida. The woman didn't recommend it but wasn't forthcoming with any specific details. I don't know who else in the group might have known about it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Which particular show was this? Does anyone have the date?
Lets see how far you can dig yourself with this one. What group and clubhouse did they go too?
By the way call up the Knoxville, Tennessee Intergroup while your at it, and tell them they have judge Richard Baumgartner mandated to AA and he's a pill popper, not an Alcoholic.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Keeper didn't say.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Right PIE. Horrific isn't it? Of course it was the mother's fault, not the AA's who knew he was a child molester and didn't tell WHEN ASKED!!! Shocking but not surprising. I shudder to think the way Keeper would feel if she looked in on this thread and found herself being blamed. The woman's still terribly, terribly brainwashed, and it would absolutely crush her. Speaking of just world fallacy, I sincerely hope there's a bit of karma for those who hold victims in contempt. I've seen what seems like karma in action. It isn't swift, but it sure packs a punch.
Troll free AA critical forum
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Yes, well, I think above all other peeves I may have, I rather hate just world thinking the most of any human behavior. I certainly do hope they get what's coming to them somehow. Speaking of Massive and her blog, it seems, if I remember correctly, that that's what the "dissenting" commenter was doing there as well. A whole pile of victim blaming. These types can't stop themselves, it seems, with their obsessive thinking that drives them to find constant fault (in hindsight, especially) with others. It's like they're being compelled by something they cannot control....rather like addictive behavior, don't you think? Certainly a "character defect" of sorts. Perhaps these resentful stepping types best do another 4th & 5th step. I don't really see how one could be actually "working the program" while still living such a contradictory message.
I don't think the dissenter was blaming the victims as much as she was pointing out that all you can do is tell someone but that people will still do what they want and they are the ones that answer for that.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara, I don't really remember what all that person said, only that it was so offensive and awful to me that I had to fire off a response immediately. I'll look it back up.
Ah, here it is. "That means that if YOU were thirteenth stepped and you bought into it, YOU screwed up." Yes, blame the vulnerable people who get taken advantage of for not being on top of their game....while in the midst of trying to end their addictions. This woman shouldn't be allowed anywhere near anyone trying to recover from addiction. She's a great example of the problems I experienced myself, the people who don't only NOT help but are all to happy to sit there telling you your faults and problems. If I could get a general restraining order against any such people who hold these beliefs and attitudes, trust me, I would. How utterly vile.
I found the show with "Keeper", it's here:
Jesus. I have no clue what this is referencing, but that sounds very, very messed up.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
When Causy doesn't like the conversation or the direction it is moving she attacks the person she feels is responsible. Most times this will be a pro-AA'er.
This story is no less tragic then all the other child abductions, rapes, child trafficking ect....that goes on in this country everyday (of every minute).
What is so sad is the disgusting immoral behavior by Monica, Ben, JR, Causy and all the others here on this site (that came here from Stinkin Thinkin) that perpetuate their filthy motives and call it advocacy. These people are not advocates, they are people who were cast aside by AA and got their feelings hurt and now want to use whatever news, person or situation/circumstance to get back at AA. They are vindictive.
Causy, is an idiot who should not be taken seriously at all. "It is on, bitch" Nice, Causy, real nice. Your answer Causy, is to abuse others, that say things you don't like.
You guys are not fooling anyone with your disingenuous motives. I don't care who Monica has on her show or who you are representing. It doesn't change who you people are and what you stand for.
"The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends."
Shirley MacLaine
Abuse, rape and murder and up pops Danny. It's like chum in the water.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
Chum, yes it is. I thought he was re-banned too. I think I'm gonna puke.
Troll free AA critical forum
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Wait, this idiot hasn't been re-banned? Pity.
Yeah Clara, this reincarnation of Danny B is female, with a policeman for a husband. You two should meet up, since he claims to be female, he can be your Sponsor and you won't be going against the "suggestions" of roughly 99% of the AA groups in the world on having an opposite sex partner. You might ask him to shave first.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
I wasn't able to hear all of it as it blipped out. While I am not blaming the woman for anything, I would surely have listened to what I was being told about the guy. When a woman told her she wouldn't recommend the guy as a sponsor, it didn't register to Keeper. I WOULD have done a check. To say that you can't get any information on someone because you were getting married, had gotten sick, etc., were moving away seems really sad.
My nephew is autistic and doesn't have a voice. I know my sister has done numerous checks on people in his world for this very reason.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Do you think that one occurrence should be enough to force AA to check all sponsors Clara? Or do you think 5 such occurrences would warrant checking? Or 10? What is the acceptable abuse rate before mandatory criminal records checks are introduced for AA sponsors?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
He was 14 years old. I wouldn't have left that to anyone else. The structure of AA is not one where anyone has a "boss." We didn't have youth members in our clubhouse so I cannot begin to think what should and could be done.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
It's a shame none of them relate to the questions I asked. Usual tricks.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
I am sure you are still hanging around AA people, ask them? Monica (Massive goes to meetings with her husband) maybe ask her, better yet ask her husband. Often times I have read from many posters here that they have gone to meetings (again) ask them?
You don't ask these questions because you could really give a shit, if you wanted to be honest. Many of you who post here, this is as far as your participation goes in changing the status quo concerning AA.
You folks are so full of shit it doesn't surprise people anymore. So many come away from this forum after reading a bit with the opinion that it is just a bunch of bull. The orange papers stand on their own merit. But these forums have been turned into a circus from the likes of JR, Causy, PIE, IFOD, Ben, Monica (Massive) ect....
"The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends."
Shirley MacLaine
Clara, quit lying. Nobody told her anything.
Troll free AA critical forum
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Listen to the broadcast. You don't have to believe me.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
I don't have to listen to a broadcast I've already listened to in order to know you are a liar. You lie here just about every day. Is that what you learned in AA, clara? That you can just say one thing then say it's opposite and nobody will call you on it? Sorry, you have picked the wrong audience here, clara.
As far as I'm concerned, everybody in AA who know he was a child molester and didn't report that fact to the mother was guilty of being an accessory to that boy's rape; guilty of being an accessory to that boy's murder. But, then, that's AA for you.
Troll free AA critical forum
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
I completely agree, C&E. They're all guilty as hell.
I don't know what the woman knew or how she knew it, but if someone suggested it wasn't a good idea, I think I would have given that heed. I don't believe she came right out and said directly that he was a molester. Who knows what she knew or had heard or what might have just been a rumor, but she raised a flag. Keeper wanted a male influence for her son and she had a lot of stuff going on personally. It was just a horrible situation all the way around.
I don't particularly care if you believe me or not, but I never once said I went to meetings in DC. It was ten years before I came to the rooms. You are simply mistaken.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Why is that, Cause? I wish that someone could have told any of the people on the panel that AA isn't for everyone and if they are unhappy with it, to go find something that could work for them. But when you say that here on the board, it is never accepted as a loving sentiment that it can be. Posters act as if someone is being kicked out when that isn't the case. Go get the help that you need! AA isn't going to fall if Clara, Avo, Monica, Soberman, Ben or Beckett aren't coming to meetings for whatever reason. But to spend that long in anything, feeling the way she describes, makes no sense. It isn't as if there haven't been options around for 30 years.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
The manipulation of AA was done by Bill Wilson so he could make 8 times a month what the average person made at that time, not work, drive a Cadillac, live in a home in the expensive part of New York that he conned out of a widow called Helen Griffith and have his mistress Helen Wynn nicely placed 15 minutes away in Pleasantville for quick access.
Bill Wilson is dead, the main person trying to follow in his footsteps right now is Clancy and his Pacific Group which is know worldwide as a rogue AA group.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Im so sick of some of this work.
wtf is wrong with you Clara? Are you not connected to people in any real way? How can you ask me this stupid fucking question. You really don't want an answer.
You are fucking insulting me. It's clear to me and everyone here. What kind of person does that.
AN AA asshole. That's who. Just leave me alone and dont talk to me with your stupid opinions . I have had ENOUGH in my stupid 37 years, 36 in AA and especially the last 2 I was a GSR in LA with the worst idiots in GS I have ever met!!!!
What would one do with all that free time now that AA meetings were no longer necessary?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
Good idea alkie. The sooner the general public knows that AA was founded on deception, lies, fraud and a hokey cultist religion the sooner we as a society will be able to honestly help those in need.
AA and the 12 step program of religion is a fraud and a sham. Oh, and it kills people.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
Run from the cult members and go to the spa with a friend. Read a book in my backyard. Talk to my sons. Hang with my hubby! I love my family. Have a great coffee with a sugary treat.
Very funny LFOD! For steppers, that really is the only game in town. They are so addicted to meetings, even when they are sick of them, they can only think of switching them up. I have heard everything from less meetings to more meetings, to more spiritual meetings to just do speaker meetings. Then there is the great meeting in the sky after someone passes, which probably means they went to hell but they don't realize that is what they are suggesting.
But you will never hear anybody tell people to move on. Make new friends and find new interests to break the addiction/cult religion cycle.
Why do you care? What are you doing here?
"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks."
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
AA damages people and kills others.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS


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Confronting Unethical Conservatism
I wrote this first part after receiving an email from mumsy dearest to the immediate family that really got my goat, but before I could start this thread I ended up responding to the email directly which I is included further down.
This is the emotional set up and was all I was going to post to start this thread, but apparently I need to be angry to pack a punch. Its a bit long but I think its much more dramatic the way it all worked out. ~~ I was at my parents house recently and my brother (Mr. NRA-4-EVR) was there too. He was saying to my mom, disdainfully, how Hillary Clinton was saying that Its time stop thinking about the individual and start thinking about the community, and my mother retorts Yeah, just like Pelosi. I patiently inquired as to what exactly was wrong with that thinking and was told by my mother that it was communistic, at which point my head promptly exploded. Upon reassembly I was then treated to the story of Dr. Zhivago and how the Russian government took the property from the rich and gave it to the poor, implying that if we dont stop these newly empowered tax and spend Democrats the same will happen here. I found out that they support tax cuts for the wealthy, corporations, and cutting of government benefits and programs for the poor. If anyone wants what they have they can just go out and work for it even though theyre also against the minimum wage. I tried to counter on several points but they had excuses galore, finally I brought up Iraq and the unnecessary billions were spending there and got the FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEDOM mantra, Yes Ill let my neighbor down the street starve and go homeless if it means protecting freedom!" I actually had to explain to my brother that there were no WMDs and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and when I mentioned the civilians we are killing he said he couldnt believe our soldiers were killing them, as though the ONLY culpability in a persons death is the person pulling the trigger. Creating the situation that unnecessarily kills people, A-OK. ~~ Long story short and their story is a typical one they mistake Republican for true conservatism and Democratic compassion for taking whats mine. I dont do well under pressure so I want to be prepared with a list of things to rattle off next time as to where their precious tax dollars ARE being spent, as this ignorance continues to rear its ugly head. And to clarify just one thing, the real issue is not that they may be wrong on the facts, its that they dont care enough to research and KNOW whether or not they are right OR wrong on the issue, not unlike our beloved Dobson drones. ~~ So Im looking for things like statistics and/or congressional bills that have been passed where they cut taxes for the wealthy but also cut benefits to veterans. Anything along the lines of You dont want to spend money on this, but youre willing to spend money on this?! More money spent on prisons vs schools would be a good example. One actual example I remember was approving the 20 million dollar victory party for Iraq yet cutting some 14 million in funding for improved helmets to protect those in combat (Im still looking for the source on the latter). Cutting veterans benefits or gear for the troops is primo info. Like when anti-gay bigots love homosexuals by treating us like dogs, they support the troops and wounded Iraq veterans by ensuring their financial insecurity and health care misery and that of their families. Let me know if anything comes up like this or if you remember anything from the past few years. Ive been watching C-SPAN like a hawk since 04 and I know Ive witnessed scores of examples in that time. If you dont have the source dont worry about it, I can always do a search if I get desperate.
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
Let's all sit back and be grateful for what we've taken away from others.
I got this in my email from my mother to the immediate family, your standard loving motherspam as it were, without the link or mention of where it was from. If youre familiar with World Net Daily I need explain no more (theyre hideously anti-gay). If not, heres a taste (just a taste) of the article. Click on the link to read it in full.
Anyone who considers that response to threat to be acceptable IS a threat. Basically I walked away from this article/email with the sense that (re Iraq), as a Christians, we should destroy the lives of others and then sit back and be grateful for what we have that they don't. Puke-o-rama.
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
And finally, the motherload. (Warning: Sarcastic as hell)
This is my response to the email above. Keep in mind that my Christian brother and his wife (not the NRA4EVR brother) who signed the anti-gay FL marriage amendment were also recipients of that email, so its written with them in mind too.
~~ Quote:
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
Reading your story reminds me of the book "Don't Think of an Elephant" That book does a really good job of explaining the mindsets or "Frames" that give Conservative Republicans and Progressives such very different mind sets. It explains, for instance, how the word "freedom" means completely different things to Conservative Republicans and Progressives.
It can get frustrating trying to dialogue with folks who simply do not see the world the same way we do. We can't give up, though. Steven Webster |
Thanks Steven
Ok this is about to get good.
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
In Response to my response...
(To be clear, I'm having problems in the spiritual non-violent department.. In fact I need an "intervention." ) That said:
~~ Heres the funny one from my sister (the older one, my age). I guess shes not used to seeing www.links.com in her email. Her last sentence with the 'links' though actually works.. Soak it up kids hell to pay on the way. ~~ (reply)Whew!!!!! Wow! Hello Patrick. Youre alive and well I see. www.oprah.com Spending all your time worring about things that you cant change. www.drphil.com Bitching about them to those who are closest and (really could care less), working on a computer that you didnt earn and living in a home that was a gift. www.google.com Must be nice! Maybe Im on the wrong websites. I dont know why youre so interested in the lives of Irakeess and Muslins www.fabric.com when you do nothing but cause a daily verbal and non verbal war on your own family. You are no better than Bush. www.nickjr.com By the way who the heck is Haliburton and what hard earned tax dollars are you talking about? Yours??????? You have to www.work.com to earn www.dollars.com that could be www.taxed.com. Right? Anyhoo .Blah Blah Blah about the rest. www.gottago.com -X
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
Maybe, if your family is so obsessed with their freedom, ask them what they think of the President. Perhaps they have forgotten that good old Bush can tap and record any telephone conversation he feels like, if he can call it a threat to national security. Or maybe they don't know that the government has the power to throw citizens in jail without the right to a trial or a phone call, on the sole basis of suspicion of terrorist activities. They probably think that we as a people are truly free, but they forget that as the days turn to weeks, and months to years Iraq continues to piss other people off. In response to pissed off people our government moves to protect us. And by their protection, we loose freedoms.
Maybe you should clarify with them, that to have freedom is to loose safety, and to be safe is to loose freedoms. That might enlighten them to their own hypocrisy. Austin PS - I myself would gladly give up freedoms for my safety, even if it sounds other wise... I hope that helps...
Live a life none can condem, Walk with God hand in hand, None can harm you nor hurt you then, Take off your mask, and open your heart Walk the walk, and play your part. |
Thanks you guys, I know.
It's a good suggestion tpdncr4christ, I'm just not the man to deliver their message of interest. I'm much better at dropping nuclear bombs to open people up to people like you that may actually can deliver those messages in spiritually non-violent ways though.
And davidcom, I didn't realize I would get sprayed in the way that I did. I've been in internet relay with them this afternoon, but let me try and hone this a bit better. I think it works out, at least in structure. P.S. It's gonna get worse before it gets better...
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
He who knows goes first
So your family shoots barbs back and forth? At least you are talking. That's something. A something that can lead to something else. Beats talking to a brick wall. I wrote an email to my siblings this past year regarding gay marriage (3 out of 4 of them actually- my youngest brother has a 'live let live' policy) and got a response that echoes yours above from my missionary brother and his wife. My other three siblings? Nada. It's hard having those who profess to love us actually ignore our concerns. They separate themelves from us by their judgement/condemnation, creating an abyss between us, one that cannot be traversed easily, unless, of course, one takes the tack that there isn't any separation at all, which entails a change of perception on our part. Holding onto that may be hard, but someone's gotta do it. All else is vengeance.
Be the love you seek. |
Drum roll please.........................
The other responses were telling, they wholeheartedly supported this one from my brother who signed the FL marriage amendment petition. The others may not have known that, but I did.
The man and "his wife," literally went out of their way to prevent me from enjoying not only the right to marry, but also the rights of marriage, and did so behind my back. ~~ These Are MY Words!: Quote:
~~ Gives new meaning to idea of projectile "vomit" as it were.. But as Martha Stewart says, Its a good thing." Hes done all my work for me. The letter I have been beating myself up to complete is no more. Switch around a few words and the above expresses the HORROR of what I live with every day in my mind (regarding him).I realize I'm responsible for my thoughts and not to absolve them of responsibility but I know they dont mean to be mean, but I am truly blind with rage. And I know Im transferring all the Dobson et al lies-anger onto them that they dont even deserve. I actually want to hate them. I have become the thing I despise the most. ~~ Such a seemingly uncharacteristic response from him is enlightening despite its disillusionment. It puts him squarely on my level, except for the fact that he doesnt realize that...yet. I thought he expressed himself well though if nothing else. Definitely merit to his message. But Im still judging them through the pigeon hole of the petition they signed, Thats where I draw the line. So I guess it comes down to at least agreeing on what the line itself is in order to minimize conflict. That would be the part I failed at completing...so far.
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
Ahhhh... my darling! You have renewed my faith in the family closet. Oy!!
Yes, yes...I did argue with my old man over New Years, but we kept it strictly politics and rilijin'...as always. We don't ever let it get personal. Chin up, young person!
There is no law against love. |
If they gave us the tax breaks that go with marriage we would have more money to spend which would stimulate the economy even more.
Just to keep you abreast of the situation..
So my sister wrote this from earlier, above. The links are a joke, she was making fun of me for including links in the original email. And then I made fun of her making fun of me back (below), so don't worry about clicking on them.
~intermission~Dirty Laundry~intermission~ And then she wrote this, Quote:
~~ My thoughts:Quote:
(there's my fear.. I'm confused, I don't know what to do. Never mind everybody, I'm perfectly afraid now.. ) ~~ Quote:
characteristics of the devil (from above): Quote:
And duplicitous? I dont mean to nitpick or anything but that adjective alone pretty much makes the devil half God. Which makes sheer evil half good. If the devil is duplicitous by nature, then by nature it cannot be a cohesive unit. To the extent that duplicitousness is impossible, so too is the devil. The devil, by its own nature is impossible. Nothing could be truly duplicitous and still be one whole thing. And nothing doesnt exist! Now how do I put that into dogmatic terms even a Catholic mother could love?
Nothing bad can ever happen. ~God |
Patrick- Your mom is....well....a handful. I bet she didn't mean it this way, but when I read her words "God has certainly taken a back seat", I started to laugh, imagining a wizened old man in the back seat of a cab, you in the passenger seat, your mother at the wheel. God yelling "where they hell are you taking us lady?"
My fundi brother has been known to 'go off' about original sin, which makes me think of babies being born with some kind of deformity. It's strange, when you take a good look at the strange ideas people come up with. And original sin seems one of the most strangest of all. It's a very effective idea, however, if one wants to decide what and who is sinful. Then the hoop jumping starts. I know the great theologians have stacks of books on this idea. All I gotta say is that, no matter how you add it up, what pretty face you draw on it, in the end, it's a bad idea, and an even worse teaching tool. It's like telling a tennis player something is wrong with his feet. If he thinks about it too much, he won't be able to move. He's gotta learn to keep his eye on the ball. The Inner Game of Love.
Be the love you seek. |
Original blessing
A Google search turns up all sorts of references. BenL |
Eastern Orthodox are very skeptical of Augustine's theology of Original Sin because of its emphasis on utter depravity and an in-born stain of guilt such that those born into Original Sin cannot be in the presence of God unless that sin is removed (this is where the theory of 'limbo' comes from ... it is where babies without actual sin, but with Original Sin (due to lack of baptism) go because while their lack of actual sin precludes the 'punishment' of hell, the presence of unremoved Original Sin precludes full communion with God). Augustine's theory of Original Sin also forms the basis for substitutionary atonement theologies as well as things like the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
The view that many Orthodox theologians have of Original Sin is that it is the inheritance of mortality -- it isn't so much a stain that precludes communion with God as the inheritance of immortality in our mortal flesh ... an inheritance that is "washed away" in the waters of baptism in which we die with Christ and are risen again in Christ -- in other words, in baptism we "put on Christ" and therefore share in his inheritance of immortality, replacing our prior inheritance of mortality, and our death experience is transformed, if we live our lives in Christ, to the death experience of Christ - i.e., not as a terminal experience, but as a passage to new life. Original sin, seen in this light, is, to my spiritual experience at least, more understandable, less abstract, and more sensible -- but I do respect Augustine's views as well as those who have theologies that derive from his own. |
running with the tangent
Wanting to undertand what you are trying to convey, would you consider a restatement for this lowly layman?
Be the love you seek. |
Community and polarization
Wow, some deep stuff here....
The original sin argument is thick with history but how come no one ever talks about how it alienates us from God, self and neighbor allowing us to bear false witness about things like WMDs, and against our poorer neighbor, and the immigrant, who are all being blamed for our economic problems. There is a deliberate attempt to paint welfare recipients as the real problem yet the amount of money spent on the poor in these programs is a speck of sand on the map compared to corporate welfare. We should worry a whole lot more that corporations are taking over our destiny than liberals or democrats! Some interesting links: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html http://www.randomhouse.com/features/...boutbook.html) Those who favor corporations over their poor neighbor can call themselves a lot of things but they can't square the practice with biblical christianity. Both OT & NT are replete with warnings, admonitions & laws demanding that we take care of the poor. Jesus' whole life was spent doing that (talk about accessible healthcare...people fought just to touch the hem of his tunic!) More links to describe the domination of corporations we are under and the free ride they are getting: http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2003/...tr1135443.html http://www.time.com/time/2002/enron/ http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney...last_1011.html http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/ns09222004.cfm http://homepage.mac.com/gcatalone/ib...307/index.html We are so polarized over these issues but it's time the FACTS got to the masses. The middle class are shouldering the tax burden and the poor are getting left behind [pun intended]. Pray for America to be liberated from the corporate demonic influence that has seized us.
god over me, god before me, god behind me; on thy path, o god, thou in my steps... |
I guess the way that my Eastern priest friends taught it to me was that when we are born, we are born into a life of death -- that is to say, death is in our flesh and bones, it is a part of our condition existentially. We're all mortal -- from the moment we are born, one of the great realities of our life is the reality of death. Eastern theology sees this as being the mark of original sin -- we inherit this mortality from the sin of Adam (and Eve) -- it was that first sin, the original sin, that changed Adam and made him mortal, and therefore it was only his mortality that could be passed down unto all subsequent human generations. It's this mortality that is the mark of Adam's sin in all human beings. In Jesus Christ, the mortal human nature inherited from Adam in the flesh of Mary is united with the immortal divine nature of the Son of God in one person. Christ's human nature is united with his divine nature by means of being united together with it in the one person of Jesus. And because it is united to Christ's divine nature, his human nature -- by virtue of this union -- is no longer a mortal human nature (i.e., that which was inherited from the post-fall mortal nature of Adam), but an immortal one, restored to its original pre-fall state of immortality by virtue of being united with the immortal divinity of the Son of God. Individual Christians are born into mortality as everyone else is. By virtue of baptism, the person dies with Jesus and is raised with Jesus and "puts on Christ" -- that is, one's mortal nature is transformed through union with Jesus (not a union by incorporation into Christ's person, as it was for Christ's human nature, but a union by grace and communion with God in and through Jesus) into an immortal nature. That doesn't mean that people don't die -- even Jesus died. What it means is that when death happens, it is the same experience for the Christian who dies "in Christ" as it was for Christ, because the Christian's mortal nature has been transformed into an immortal nature through a transformative life of communion in Christ. [***-- see below] Now what I wrote there makes it sound like baptism is magic, but that's not generally the way it's understood by Orthodox -- baptism is the beginning of the transformative life, not its dispositive end. The tradition is that one's entire life is a way of living out one's baptism, of growing ever closer to Christ, into ever more perfect communion with him and, through him, with God. It's a life of transformation and grace that the Orthodox refer to as "theosis" (often translated as "dvinization", but that's really a poor translation ... what it means is that the individual's human nature is being transformed by grace into the kind of human nature that Jesus has -- into a "divinized" human nature thoroughly flooded with God's grace (which the Orthodox refer to as "divine energy")). So when original sin is looked at as the "inheritance of mortality", that means that we're all born into a mortal state as human beings. It doesn't mean, from this perspective (and I'm not saying other perspectives are invalid, I'm just trying to clarify this perspective), that one is not "justified" in the eyes of God. It simply means that one is mortal, and this is not what God intended us to be when he created humankind. The tremendous act of self-giving by Jesus in undergoing a human death (so that death could be transformed for all of those who live "in him") was done, per this perspective, not to pay off a debt, or to satisfy divine justice, but to restore humanity to its intended state of immortal life and communion with God. This perspective doesn't view the crucifixion from the perspective of substitutionary atonement, but rather from the perspective of triumph and restoration -- God's voluntary act of undergoing death so as to take away the "sting" of death, and restore his creation to the way he intended it to be, despite its own flaws and mistakes. I think I've probably still stated what's a very simple idea in a complicated way. Stated as simply as I can manage: God became human so that humanity can become what God intended humanity to be -- not just morally (although that's very important because it reflects a life of growing communion with God in Christ), but in terms of humanity's very *nature*. ------------------------------ *** -- The liturgical traditions of baptism differ, and in some ways also reflect the divergent ideas about "Original Sin". In most "mainline" Western traditions (not all, but most), baptism is normally done by the sprinkling of water over the head, or perhaps the pouring of water over the head. The liturgical symbolism in either case is primarily one of "cleansing" -- washing away the stain of Original Sin and making one a part of the Body of Christ. In the Eastern tradition, the baptism is performed differently. Most typically with infants (but also with adult newcomers), there is a large font, and the child is thrust down into the water and up again out of the water rather vigorously three times by the priest (a typically trinitarian formulation), with the liturgical symbolism representing not only washing/cleaning (also present, of course), but also a "dying" (going down into the water) and a "resurrection" (coming up out of the water). This up and down way of performing "immersion baptism" is an intrinsic part of the rite, and is also performed for adult converts -- it's never done by pouring water over the head because that symbolism -- while perfectly appropriate for a more Augustinian approach towards Original Sin -- doesn't really reflect what the Orthodox theological tradition has become about these issues. It's interesting to see these kinds of liturgical diversities as a reflection of underlying theological diversities. Last edited by novaseeker; 02-02-2007 at 08:18 AM. |
Wow Patrick, here are some hugs for you, you need 'em! {{{ }}}
So, we are back at the argument "the devil made you do it". Yeah, I have some family who feel that way as well. It's a frustrating and nearly impossible argument to deal with. AGGGHHHHHHAAAAAAA! I dunno, just a thought, but perhaps the common Christian belief of "original sin" is partly why some folk destroy their precious little children? To save them from hell??? It's just so bizzare to me, and although it's something that's been hammered into my head (and out my ears thank goodness) by so-called Christian folk my whole life, but still hard to grasp and BIZARRE. Sometimes it feels easier to go back into hiding and avoid 'them'. But we can't give up. Keep on keepin' on Patrick!
"Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you earn it and win it in every generation." Coretta Scott King |
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The survey indicates Hurricane Sandy could be a factor in this year's shopping season for consumers, especially those in the affected downstate areas.
The organization compiled the survey information in the month before the storm hit the downstate area.
The survey indicates retailers are confident about this year's shopping, but Sandy is now part of the equation, says the Retail Council's Rebecca Flach.
"So that now throws a whole new variable with consumers, particularly downstate consumers who may have lost homes, vehicles, and other assets," Flach says.
Retailers believe that holiday shopping revenue all comes down to consumer confidence in the economy, which Flach says is the same message over the past four or five shopping seasons.
"What we've witnessed over the past several months is increasing consumer confidence. The reports that we're seeing both at the state level and nationwide were looking pretty upbeat, prior to the storm," Flach says.
The Retail Council survey also indicates nearly 4 in 5 retailers have plans for seasonal hiring.
Below you'll find the complete news release from the Retail Council of New York State.
Before Hurricane Sandy left its mark on New York City, Long Island and the Hudson Valley, the majority of New York retailers were confident and prepared for a strong 2012 holiday shopping season. That's according to a survey of Retail Council of New York State members conducted just prior to the storm where 78 percent of participating retailers said they expected 2012 holiday season numbers to be the same as or better than 2011.
"Retailers were poised for a healthy holiday season, but downstate consumers who lost homes, vehicles and other assets may now take holiday funds to buy necessities versus the latest electronic, jewelry or other holiday wares," said Retail Council President and Chief Executive Officer James R. Sherin. "There is real potential for consumers to shift spending to some industry segments like home improvement stores and away from others that heavily rely on holiday sales to keep them in the black."
The Retail Council, the state's largest retail trade association, representing stores of all size and variety from national chains to independent Main Street merchants, conducts a Holiday Sales Watch survey each year between Thanksgiving and Christmas to track retail sales and trends.
To kick off the 2012 assessment, the Council conducted this Holiday Season Forecast survey to get a sampling of what members believed the season would hold in store for New York state retailers. The survey was mailed to Retail Council members in mid-September and results were collected through Oct. 26, before the hurricane struck on Oct. 29 and 30.
While optimistic, the majority of respondents still had their eyes on the economy, or as one member put it, "the customer's confidence in the economy," as the greatest factor to affect their 2012 holiday sales. This was followed closely by the presidential election and, eerily, weather, as factors that could impinge sales.
"Year after year the Council and our members worry about the crippling effects of a major storm on holiday shopping," said Sherin. "We typically think of heavy snow fall or a blizzard, but Hurricane Sandy will have far broader and longer lasting consequences for both consumers and businesses in New York State."
The Council also asked members about inventory and hiring intentions in the forecast survey. Sixty-nine percent of participating merchants said they planned to purchase the same as or more inventory than 2011. A clear majority of participants (79 percent) indicated they would hire the same as or more employees compared to last year to assist them in the upcoming weeks.
"Destroyed shipping ports, mangled rail lines and roads, gas shortages and lack of electricity may prevent or delay the delivery of much-needed holiday inventory," said Sherin. "Consumers should start early and pick up any must-have gifts when they see them as refilling store shelves may be more challenging for merchants this year."
"Merchants have made it through the last few years of an unstable economy with caution and strategy. This mentality will continue particularly for downstate retailers as New York City, Long Island and the Hudson Valley rebuild in the months to come," Sherin said.
In addition to the forecast survey, the Retail Council polls members three times via telephone between Black Friday and the week after Christmas to gauge retail sales and trends. Visit www.retailcouncilnys.com for the latest updates to the Holiday Sales Watch.


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ATV crash kills elderly man in Scott County
(WBIR-Huntsville) An ATV accident killed an elderly man on Friday in Scott County. The Scott County Sheriff's Office confirmed it happened at Brimstone Recreation during the White Knuckle ATV Festival in Huntsville Friday afternoon. Officials said the Illinois man passed away at the scene. Crews took the body to the University of Tennessee for an autopsy. They're not releasing ...
Children of murder victim fight to keep convicted killer in prison
This picture, showing Myrtle Chapman with her two children, was taken at Ginger Zuck's wedding in December 1994. Chapman was killed on March 25, ...
Armadillos move into Morgan Scott Counties
The National Park Service says it is keeping its eyes on an invasive species that could threaten an East Tennessee attraction. Armadillos have been steadily migrating north from states like Georgia and Alabama in recent years. The animal, which prefers warmer weather, has been able to adapt to East Tennessee's cooler climate. So far, the creature has been spotted in Morgan and Scott ...
Powell church hosts food pantry for area
Powell Presbyterian Church hosted a Second Harvest Mobile Food Pantry Sunday for families struggling around the area. Church Clerk Dan Jarvis said even during these warm months, it's important to keep the spirit of giving alive and help out the community year-round. "You don't have to be physically strong and things like that to help like this," said Jarvis. ...
High-flying kids take to the skies in Morristown
(WBIR-Morristown) The skies were the limit for dozens of kids and teens Saturday afternoon in Morristown. The Experimental Aircraft Association brought kids ranging from 8-to-17 years old to hangars at Morristown Airport. Their mission was to ignite a passion for aviation in the next generation of engineers and pilots. The EAA started in 1953 in Milwaukee, Wis. by a group that built ...
59.9°F Mostly Cloudy
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The King of Marvin Gardens [Blu-Ray]
The King of Marvin Gardens was director Bob Rafelsons attempt to fully establish his artistic voice. His previous two films, the experimental Monkees trip Head (1968) and the alternately raucous and austere character study Five Easy Pieces (197 ... ...
On Facebook
Gunman robs pizza delivery man in East Knox
Not that any criminal is smart or anything,but risking a felony w a gun to rob a pizza guy? What,do they love pizza that much or really expect a guy delivering pizza for a living to be carrying lots of big money? I guess if this brainiak was going to steal a car from a car dealer,he would order the salesman to gas up the used 79 ...
Destination Imagination wraps Saturday
Doug Borrman of Coon Rapids, Minn., lets the students on the town's Destination Imagination team spray paint his beard during the ...
Knox Know-It-All Whatever happened to the White Pages
AT&T phased out standard residential delivery of the White Pages to Knoxville households in February 2012, having already ended the service in Memphis, Nashville and Chattanooga as part of its Residential White Pages Consumer Choice program, according to AT&T spokeswoman Cathy ...
Red Cross sends 2 more East TN volunteers to Moore OK
(WBIR-Louisville/Knoxville) Those affected by the deadly tornado in Moore, Okla. are in need of almost everything, from food to shelter. This past week, 10 American Red Cross volunteers from East Tennessee traveled to Moore. Don Barker and Rachel Dunne left from McGhee Tyson Airport on Saturday morning. It will be Dunne's first deployment with the Red Cross. "You're meeting ...
Make-A-Wish whisks local teen to Disney World
(WBIR-Knoxville) Make-A-Wish Foundation whisked a local teen battling heart issues to the most magical place on earth. Garrett, 14, has had several surgeries in the past on his heart. His one wish was to travel to Orlando and visit Disney World, Universal and all the other theme parks. On Saturday, he took off from McGhee Tyson Airport to Florida. His mother, Connie Metcalf, said ...
Making the news
We must define the nature and scope of this struggle, or else it will define us. Neither I, nor any President can promise the total defeat of terror. What we must do is dismantle networks that pose a direct danger.
Barack Obama
The U.S. president was speaking on his administration's counter terrorism policy.
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In the middle of the Strip, and opposite the Mirage and Treasure Island is the Venetian, adjacent to its sister ...
Keep readingRecord Your Vote
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Knoxville Times
Knoxville Times – News Portal for Knoxville, TennesseeThe Knoxville Times is essentially a local Knoxville newspaper, but with a national and international perspective, designed to provide readers with a one-stop shop for Knoxville, national US, regional, and world news coverage, weather and sports information, with live updates on breaking business stories, and what's happening in the financial markets.
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Posted Nov 07, 2012
ByIt's Top 12 night, where 'the fight really starts,' according to Demi Lovato.
But hold on for a sec. The amped-up, 'roid-rage announcer guy says there's a 'big twist!!!!!' coming our way. Moments later, Simon Cowell announces that a mistake was made last week and they're bringing back an eliminated contestant. And that contestant is …
Photos from the LA Premiere of the "Fast & Furious 6" at the Gibson Amphitheatre on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 in Univer
The dramatic music soared and tension increased as the finalists stood, waiting for the decision of who would be th
'The Voice' reduced its roster of finalists down to eight as it bid goodbye to Josiah Hawley of Team Us
Photos from the RHS Chelsea Flower Show in London, England. The Chelsea Flower Show is celebrating its 100th birthd
Photos from the premiere of Warner Bros. Pictures' "Hangover Part 3" on Monday, May 20, 2013 in Westwood, Californi
The four finalists, Zendaya, Kellie Pickler, Aly Raisman and Jacoby Jones and their partners danced three routines


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Hi, I'm Alison.
Welcome to my world: artistic expressions, visual inspiration, film, music, photography, art, a fair bit of Potter, a pinch of Marilynl, a large dose of SPN, a sprinkle of Doctor Who, a cup of RDJ, peace, love, pixie dust, magic and some general ramblings.
"Spilled beer on the road! Who's comin' with me?"
I lead an Amy Poehler Appreciation Life!
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Hello to all,
I recently purchase a Mac pro 12 core 2010 model ($1000) in Gumtree (Australia). I emailed the seller under the email add firstname.lastname@example.com. The seller reply back with her own personal email which is email@example.com. I found out she is currently in UK taking care of her sick father.
So we made a deal that I will pay the item through this shipping company called GreenShippingCo.
The rule is to wire money first through Western Union and it will be sent to one of the "green agent" of the shipping company. The interesting part of this is that the seller mentioned to me that she is ok with refund in case the item is not legit.
But one thing bothers me is the shipping company website which is http://green-shipping.zxq.net.
The problem with this website is there's no address, contact no. and only email plus fax no. I tried searching through google under the zxq.net and found out its a free web hosting site. That is why I need your help guys. I would like to know if the person I am dealing is legit and the shipping co. is not fake.
Here's the copy of the invoice.
We are glad to announce you that you have a package in custody at Green Co Deliveries.
Please visit our website http://green-shipping.zxq.net for details on your package.
Green Courier. reduces risks associated with Internet transactions by acting as a licensed, trusted,
neutral third party for on-line transactions. The seller leaves the merchandise into Green Courier.
custody. The merchandise will remain in Green Courier. custody until the buyer provides the payment
informations to Green Courier. The payment will be made through a Money Transfer Service. Once the
funds are verified by Green Courier , the merchandise will be send to the buyer.
Once the buyer receives the merchandise, the payment informations will be released to the
seller only if the buyer is completely satisfied with the merchandise. If the buyer will not be satisfied
with the merchandise, Green Courier. will send the merchandise back to the seller.
Important Delivery Information:
Message from Green Courier. Support:
Use Western Union to make the payment.
Pay using Western Union Money Transfer in association with World Air Courier Inc.
Locate the near Western Union Office by clicking HERE.
Verified Green Courier. Agent Info:
You must send the payment to our agent.
First Name: MICHELLE
Last Name: FERGUSON
Address: 27 High Street
City: London
Zip Code: NW10 4NE
Country: United Kingdom
Scheduled Delivery: 12-06-2012
Shipment Detail:
Ship To:
Country: Australia
Zip Number:
Package Content:
Apple Mac Pro Xeon 64 bit workstation 2.66_12CX/6X 1G/5770/1TB/SD
Type Service: 2 Days Green Air Courier
Weight: 30 lbs
Tracking Number:
Email address :
Status of Delivery : On Moving
After you will send the payment to our Green Courier please fax the following details:
-MTCN# (10 digits number from the payment receipt)
-Exactly Sender name and address
-Exactly Receiver name and address
-Exactly Amount you sent(in GBP-GREAT BRITAIN POUNDS)
Please also send the westernunion details at our email
NOTE: Western Union Money Transfer is designed mainly for sending cash to friends and family in need , so telling them you are sending the money for a business,transaction will prevent your money transfer to go through and you will be unable to complete this transaction (the fee is 50 % higher for a commerce transaction than the fee for friends and relatives),so if they ask please tell them that the payment is for a friend,relative and not for a transaction.
Attention! When you fax the Western Union Transfer receipt, be sure to include the Transaction ID #: Green Courier84095726, for the transaction you're appealing.
Purchase protection and refund:
Currently, this seller has USD 7,258.00 deposit in an Green courier . managed purchase protection account. Transactions with this Green Courier. seller are covered by purchase protection against fraud and description errors. For your safety, this account was locked today, for 30 days time. The seller is unable to withdraw any money from it, within this period.
Should you need a refund for this transaction, the insured amount will be taken from the seller's purchase protection account and sent to you. The refund is sent to your bank account, by check or money order. The way you are refunded is at your choice. You have 90 days from the above verification date to request a refund. Refund requests are processed within 3 days. The account is managed by Green's Square Trade center. This transaction is supervised by Green's Safe Harbor team.
Conditions to be meet before you may ask for a refund:
Here are the situations suitable for a refund request:
1) If the item doesn't arrive and/or the seller stops communications after the payment was received;
2) If the merchandise you receive has different specifications than the ones you agreed on;
3) If your merchandise arrives in a much longer period than the one you agreed on (more than 15 days from the payment clearance day).
For cases 2) and 3) you have to send back the merchandise to the seller prior to ask for your refund. If you did not pay the seller by the required payment method, your refund request would be declined.
This e-mail message was sent to you from Green Air Courier Safe Harbour team.The seller was informed about this transaction being started and is awaiting your payment. It is recommended to send the payment as soon as possible, as your purchase protection is valid for 30 days only.
To ask for a refund, simply reply to this notification and enter in the subject line:
Refund request for Green Courier Transaction #180025613664
You can track your delivery by accesing this link: http://green-shipping.zxq.net


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Response to Homeless Childbearing Women's Health Care Learning Needs
Clinical Nursing Research, 05/04/2012
Stringer M et al. – These findings informed an 8–week educational session (1 hr/week). During the past year, four 8–week sessions were conducted with attendance between 8 and 14 participants. Each week a different health topic was discussed incorporating the associated unique challenges of homelessness.


text:
1 reviews
Code: HH41412
Shipping Weight: 0.5 pounds
Shipping Special
Line and fitting is identified by 5/8" O.D. line with a 3/4" wrench size S.A.E. fitting threade onto it.
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