text:
Church Council Urging Vote Against Voter ID
Minnesota Council of Churches represents the leaders of many Protestant denominations.
Seeking to bring attention to what it calls the "voter restriction amendment," the Minnesota Council of Churches announced its opposition to a state constitutional amendment that would require voters show photo identification at the polls.
The amendment, said Rev. Peg Chemberlin, the Council's Executive Director, has fallen too far out of the public eye.
"We encourage and want a vigorous debate and conversation in the next few weeks on this amendment," Chemberlin said. "In fact, I hope there's some pushback. I hope people ask 'What's going on? Why have you taken this position?'"
In a written statement, the Council's President, St. Paul Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America Bishop Peter Rogness said "the fundamental issue that brings us here is our concern for those for whom this step – which seems easy for most in the mainstream – becomes a barrier to participating in the shaping of our public life together."
It was an issue of "defending the right of the last, lost and least to vote and therefore oppose the amendment," he added.
The Council's decision is not binding on member denominations, Chemberlin said. Instead, the decision by the Council's board was a matter of denominations "calling on each other to encourage this vigorous debate at the local level."
A spokesperson for the Minneapolis Area Synod of the ELCA, which represents much of the western Twin Cities, said that many of the synod's churches were intensely focused on defeating the state's marriage amendment, and the synod would not likely be organizing them to engage in the Voter ID issue.
Chaz Ruzak of the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area said his denominations offices has provided local churches with many neutral voter education resources, but hadn't taken a stand on the issue.
As of publication time, representatives of other denominations in the Minnesota Council of Churches couldn't be reached for comment.
Many religious and religious-based organizations have declared their opposition to the Voter ID amendment, including Catholic Charities, Lutheran Social Services, First Unitarian Society of Minneapolis, and liberal groups ISAIAH and Jewish Community Action.
Al Anderson
6:20 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
So, leftists - its' time for you to leave your comments that "Religion should stay out of political affairs".
I don't think religious institutions should go political on abortion or gay marriage either (either side of it).
Disenfranchising legal voters by double voters, felons or illegals votes is the real issue here.
8:29 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Al, it's not that "religion should stay out of it", it is that laws and amendments should not be passed based on what a religion or religious book says....meaning that gay marriage should not be denied because the Christian Bible says it is an abomination. The organizations above are not doing this.
9:54 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Where are the court cases, where are the convicted criminals spending time in prison for this?
There is REAL disenfranchisement that occurs every election but Republicans aren't doing anything about it...
Every time there is a recount in any election there are always votes that get changed - so that means that either the votes were counted incorrectly the first time - or on the recount...
This means that there are LOTS of votes that are being counted incorrectly - you may vote for Romney but it might be incorrectly counted for Obama (or vice versa) now isn't that really a problem - and yet we hear nothing about it...
Susan Parks
10:12 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
I love this country because of the freedoms, but freedoms attached to responsibility
but I really get upset when people abuse our country and take advantage of it ($ , privilege of voting etc) There are many immigrants to American, BUT to be able to take advantage of our freedoms YOU NEED to be here legally, otherwise DON'T take my money!!! My parents did it right, my grandparents did it right WHY can't these people. It is NOT that hard to get Proof of WHO you are to vote. On a second note, the gov. should NOT change the definition of marriage. Now having said that Yes it is up to the individual if they want to marry the same sex or the opposite, even though I believe 2 sexes were created for a reason. Gov. should NOT dictate religion or any freedom of choice, that is why we live here. Any gov. control, except when it has to do with our safety should not happen. The bills need to be revised, and not written as is.
margaret richardson
6:21 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
The League of Women Voters has published a helpful graphic that details the question on the ballot, the actual constitutional amendment and what it means for voters. Once again, the devil is in the details and the final interpretation and legislation that is required to enact the amendment. Specifically, the types of IDs that are acceptable have not been determined - that would be the 2013 legislature.
11:42 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Since Margaret has posted the ridiculous LWV piece which concisely outlines all the lies and misleading statements the Left have been spouting for years about voter ID, here's a couple links to the other side of the argument which debunks everything the League of Liberal Women Voters would have you believe.
Also, this thread is about Voter ID, not the marraige amendment, so all the 'vote no because laws and amendments should not be passed based on what a religion or religious book says" are way off the mark. No Voter ID argument is based on ANY religious grounds.
Susan's comment is the very definition of a 'strawman' argument. Shame on you, Susan, for trying to put words in the mouths of supporters. And shame on these churches for putting their weight behind undermining the integrity of our election system.
margaret richardson
6:28 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Al Anderson - we have had 2 full State recounts within the last 8 years. The only fraud that was uncovered were felons who had voted before their voting rights had been restored. IDs would not prevent. MinnPost reports that there have been 10 cases of reported voter fraud and no cases of voter impersonation reported since 2000.
Al Anderson
7:17 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
What's not reported and not easily detected is vouching fraud. On the day of the election -- someone can come in and vouch for up to 15 people to vote. This with one (or more) utility bills with an address on it. It's very disingenuous to say that the only fraud that has been reported is felons voting - as the largest voter fraud hole is the ridiculous vouching that goes on in this state. And yes, voter id will fix that issue.
jody siefert
2:21 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012
minnpost.com, the most misleading, leftest media out there. Margaret, do you expect intelligent, non-sheep, folks like us to believe facts from minnpost? The problem with Minnpost is that they neglect to give the public all the facts; essentially misleading and taking advantage of those who are uninformed. So sad, we can now add "Democrat" as the new religion as I see it everyday how the DFL platform blinds those that claim they have faith to vote against God.
6:47 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
ya whatever marge. lets jsut look at al frankins recount...one for you TWO for, me. one for you, two for me...
Funny how you have a dead heat, and nearly every "found" vote goes to the left...hmmmm
margaret richardson
7:22 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
The State Canvasing Board certified the election. It was made up of Eric Magnuson, Chief Justice of the MN Supreme Court appointed by Pawlenty, G. Barry Anderson, Assc Justice of the MN Sureme Court appointed by Pawenty, Kathleen Gearin, second judicial court, elected 1986, and Edward J. Cleary second judicial court, elected 2002 and Mark Ritchie. If you had a valid issue of fraud, please prove it. If you are questioning the integrity of our elections, that is a very serious charge especially since we are close to an important national election.
margaret richardson
7:51 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Al, do you know how many voters are "vouched" for in any election? I can't find any figures.
Al Anderson
10:51 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
I can't find the figures either -- but vouching is rampant at higher ed towns and urban centers. Vouching is much less prevalant in suburban/exurban/rural areas.
Double voting in two states (while against the law) is very easy to do (absentee vote in one - get vouched for in the other) and the chances of getting caught are small since it crosses multiple state lines.
And it is instances like the one noted in the last election that gets me riled up to fix it. By the way - we are talking about the MN Daily here ...and not FoxNews that featured this
8:37 am on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
to yomammy, while your comment sounds like you were trying to be factual, they were perfectly ridiculous--not even cute or clever. Thank you Margaret for documenting the individual Canvassing Board members and particularly for pointing out that 2 high ranking members were appointed by Republican Gov Pawlenty.
Daryl Fryxell
3:35 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Everybody know that Pawlenty was a RINO--Republican in name only. So what does that prove? Exactly nothing.
Ken in MN
12:53 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
"There is no basis in fact, whatsoever, in these inaccuracies propagated by the Minnesota Majority here, none," Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said Wednesday. "After the most closely scrutinized election in Minnesota history in 2008, there were zero cases of fraud. Even the Republicans lawyers acknowledged that there was no systematic effort to defraud the election, none."
Donald Lee
9:30 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
I have seen this allegation that "even the Republican lawyers acknowledged.... no fraud". I would appreciate some sources of this information. I can imagine the lawyers not alleging fraud during the recount, because it would be irresponsible to make rash accusations without proof, and proof is mighty hard in voter fraud. (No ID, remember?)
But.... This comment suggests that the lawyers said that there was no fraud, which I have a hard time believing.
Point to something specific, please.
Daryl Fryxell
3:34 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Liberals like Margaret are incapable of basic math.
When you have precincts in which the reported vote total is significantly higher than the number of registered voters in that precinct, there is obviously fraud.
Let's be frank. The DFL likes fraud because it benefits them.
margaret richardson
4:01 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Daryl - Please post this information. Could it be because there are same day registrations that make up the difference? Otherwise, you may assert that there is fraud, but the facts are that there have been two full State recounts that have found no fraud, no identifiable cases of impersonation. Only a few felons who voted before they had their rights restored.
I can't speak for Al Anderson's assertions on fraudulent vouching. I believe you have to complete a form at each precinct (by the lead election judge) that details each instance of vouching. I assume these have been made public somewhere, but I have not been able to locate the link so I can't say the number.
My first vote was an absentee ballot because I was out of the country on a study abroad program. When I first moved to MN from college, I had to register same day at the election precinct. I had a roommate vouch for me because we were all sharing an apartment and I was not on the utility bill. I found the system to be easy and have voted in each election.
I fear for people like my neighbor's sister who is disabled, blind and only partially mobile. She lives in a facility where she does not have an ID, has never had a Driver's License and would be severely impacted if the Voter ID were enacted. She has voted in past elections, but that has been a struggle. These additional obstacles might make it insurmountable. Just one instance. But without any proven fraud that voter ID would prevent, this is unjust.
Donald Lee
9:38 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
Ms Richardson writes: "Could it be because there are same day registrations that make up the difference?"
No. Once registered, same day registrants are included in the count of "registered".
Wm Shears
11:53 am on Tuesday, October 30, 2012
Daryl, tell me, where do those letters to minority voters, telling them to vote on Wednesday, or to vote at the library, or any other lies to suppress the vote come from? Democrats? Hardly. Why is it every time--every time--I hear of a case of voter intimidation, it is the Republicans doing it?
Daryl Fryxell
4:41 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
You people with the sob stories really make me laugh. If one fraudulent vote is counted, all voters who cast a legitimate ballot are disenfranchised.
Let's take your imaginary blind person. If she is getting disability or SSI, she was required to show an ID to apply for that. If she is on food stamps or any other form of welfare, she needed an ID to get that. If she is in a "facility", she wouldn't be admitted without proof of identity. You can't cash a check without an ID.
I'm getting tired of liberals like Margaret that are greatly upset that DFL vote fraud may be significantly reduced and feel the need to use the fallacious, rad herring argument about the poor and disabled not being able to afford an ID, which the indigent can get for FREE. Let's dispense with the nonsense and just admit that you want DFLers to continue to win by fraud.
margaret richardson
6:51 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Daryl - I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until you started your post with "you people". Now I know just what kind of person you are and will disengage because obviously I am not dealing with someone who is seeking to understand, but rather with someone who labels, ridicules and diminishes. My neighbor's sister is not imaginary, but obviously not someone who would "count" in your world. May your hardened heart be softened.
5:03 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Republican party isn't concerned about voter rights. They are trying to suppress the vote wherever possible.
5:29 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Thanks Edward -- I was really getting upset with Al Anderson's remarks!!
If I had replied to the IDIOT, I'm sure I would have been deleted!!
Al Anderson
6:39 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
At this point - that situation is nothing but heresay. Nice try.
Vouching is the door that allows most of the fraud to walk through. Very hard to trace fraud through absentee ballots and same day registration (via vouching). Easy to vote in multiple states.
And Kitzer -- just because you're upset -- never gives you reason to call people names. Nice going!
6:52 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
This vouching thing is a red herring. How many people do you know who would risk a felony conviction to get one or two extra votes?
It. Doesn't. Happen.
Donald Lee
7:45 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
It is really, really hard to say something "does not happen". The best you can do is say that you have not seen it.
Voter fraud in MN is like that. Because of the way the laws are set up - with ballot secrecy, and no effectively ID requirements, the "felony" is easily avoided because it is almost impossible to get caught. MN Majority found 6000 same-day registrants in 2008 who gave bogus addresses and then voted and that's only of the ones they checked! Some of them may be typos or other innocent errors, but many were clearly fraudulent. Trouble is, since we have no idea who it was who registered same-day - you cannot prosecute.
Sorry folks, this is evidence of fraud, and is way more than the margin of victory in 2008. A photo ID is a truly minimal burden for voters.
VoterID will pass.
10:38 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Al 'baby' -- I have plenty REASONS to be upset, and right now you are at the top of my list!!
If you think I'm going to say nice going to you - Guess again!!
Also, there have been a few other IDIOTS that have TRIED to tell me what to do!
All of them have been GOPS!
6:31 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Donald, I want to correct some things here about 2008 and add data from 2010:
The secretary of state's office differs in their analysis of the data. They reported in a May 1st 2011 memo to the House Government Operations and Elections Committee that 13,363 voters in the dataset who used election day registration on November 4th, 2008 were flagged for challenge or changed to inactive status due to a PVC return, and note, 10,095 were returned because the voter moved either in-state or out-of-state. The secretary of state concluded, "therefore there were 3,262 voter records among the 2008 Election Day registrants for which there is no obvious explanation as to why they were returned."
"In total, 1,244 Election Day registrants who voted in 2010 were subsequently mailed undeliverable PVCs for which there is no known valid explanation. Taking into consideration the presumed delivery of 426 to 604 secondary PVC mailings, between 640 and 818 Election Day registrants provided names or addresses that could not be verified, some after two attempts. 399 of those have been referred by
election officials to county attorneys for possible criminal investigation.
The number of suspicious PVC returns following the 2010 non-presidential general election is significantly lower than is documented for the 2008 presidential general election. Voter turnout was lower in 2010, but not in proportion to explain the disparity in PVC returns by turnout difference alone."
6:51 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
A couple more numbers:
2,821,147 people voted in Minnesota in 2008
2,123,369 people voted in Minnesota in 2010
PVC cards are often returned for simple reasons besides fraud. The voter moved (this is the BIG one), the voter was on vacation when the card was sent out, or the voter missed the card in the mail. Many of these things are corrected or are verified with a second mailing.
Donald, this "may" be evidence of fraud, but with only 399 "referred" for prosecution out of over 2,000,000 votes in 2010, I will wait to see the prosecution rates of these individuals before I decide if this is indeed fraud vs. human error.
And apparently it is not "impossible to get caught"....399 are or were referred for prosecution but I haven't been able to find the outcomes of these investigations.
Donald Lee
10:23 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
This report: http://wewantvoterid.com/documents/2012_PVC_Report_Final.pdf breaks down the PVC issues. Some of the numbers do not agree with what Susan posted, for some reason, but others do. The link above is using the same source document from the SOS.
Note that the date of the SOS document is May of 2011 - 2.5 years after the 2008 election. Why the delay? One reason proponents of Voter ID are unhappy is that the SOS is so busy campaigning for defeat of the VoterID amendment that he has no time to do his job ensuring election integrity.
Susan is waiting for the prosecutions to happen. Please explain how a prosecutor prosecutes when there is no way to ID the person who voted? The 3262 PVC cards returned for "no obvious reason" were all same day registrants. They may have made errors, but also may have listed parks, abandoned buildings and warehouses to perpetrate fraud.
Who registered? Who do you prosecute? No ID was required at the polling place. Vouching makes fraud easy, and no ID is required of the person vouching either!
We know that 3262 PVC cards were returned with no "obvious reason". Can we really dismiss this as "nothing" and maintain the fiction that there is "no fraud"?
Go ahead and say the number is small, but it is more than the margin of victory. How many fraudulent votes balance one "suppressed" voter?
We have to do better than this.
Donald Lee
10:27 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
And on the "outcomes of these investigations".... County attorneys are often in the same class as our SOS - too busy campaigning for the defeat of VoterID to be bothered prosecuting. Mn Majority has been asking for prosecutions, and getting nowhere. There is clearly no enthusiasm for these prosecutions.
10:40 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
Donald, I got my numbers and related information (except the number of voters in each election) from the exact document you linked. This includes the mention of 399 referred for prosecution...maybe you need to ask them how they flagged these, and what their plans are for prosecution as I am not a prosecutor.
Donald wrote: "County attorneys are often in the same class as our SOS - too busy campaigning for the defeat of VoterID to be bothered prosecuting. Mn Majority has been asking for prosecutions, and getting nowhere. There is clearly no enthusiasm for these prosecutions."
Aren't you the one who takes exception to allegations without proof?
Donald Lee
11:14 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
True. What proof do you need? The SOS is making public speeches about how harmful the VoterID amendment will be. If that's not "taking a stand", I don't know what is. The SOS's job is to ensure voter integrity. Any obvious partisan leanings are improper. Active campaigning is clearly out of bounds, yet he continues....
Let me quote from this document: http://www.minnesotamajority.org/TheIssues/ElectionIntegrity/tabid/188/Default.aspx
"On October 31st, 2008, Minnesota Majority forwarded such evidence as it has found to date to 30 county attorneys and 30 county auditors. We requested investigation of these irregularities. According to Minnesota law, a county attorney who is notified of such issues shall promptly investigate. Several failed to reply at all, and two outright refused to initiate investigations, even though they are required by law to do so. Failure to investigate allegations of election problems received as an affidavit is a misdemeanor offense and any county attorney found guilty must also forfeit their office under Minnesota statute."
7:32 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Donald, I will admit that I haven't followed Ritchie closely on this issue, but if you are going to ask "someone in the know" about voter fraud, wouldn't the man in charge of voting in this state be a good authority on the subject?
And wouldn't the county attorneys know what will make a good prosecutable case? So if the people that know the job best are giving their educated opinions on the subject, this is somehow sleazy partisan politics?
Instead of going to my doctor for my next injury or illness, maybe I will ask the mailman's opinion instead because I know he is a Democrat and my doctor is a Republican....seems a bit silly, doesn't it?
8:24 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Susan wrote: "if you are going to ask "someone in the know" about voter fraud, wouldn't the man in charge of voting in this state be a good authority on the subject?"
I'm going to use your logic and suggest you ask former Secretary of State Mary Kiffmeyer (the woman in charge of voting), co-author of the Voter ID amendment.
8:28 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Mary Kiffmeyer wrote: "Nationwide, not a single case of voter disenfranchisement has been shown." I should introduce her to my dad, and if she or anyone else believes that he is a one in a million case, they don't know Minnesota at all.
Yes, Markus, you make a good point, but her statement above shows me that I either can't trust her judgement or I can't trust her knowledge of the electorate.
Donald Lee
8:37 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
I have a rule - never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.
The SOS and county attorneys reasons for their behavior. Nefarious reasons are not my first guess, nor even likely. From their point of view "too busy" is the likely response. Who isn't? If prosecution is really hard - it clearly is - and there are no kudos to be had for success, and lots of static to be reaped for pursuing it, why in the world should they do it? I might be tempted to call this lazy, but I don't know. Maybe they are simply overworked. What is clear is that they are refusing even to try. (according to Mn Maj)
Even if passed, Susan's father is not necessarily disenfranchised. The details matter. The specific procedures for absentee ballots matter. Whether or not he gets help voting matters. Mary Kiffmeyer may still be right, even after the amendment passes. I know of no one who wants people like him to be barred from voting.
Donald Lee
8:38 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
I left something out.....
The SOS should not campaign on issues before the voters. It's a conflict of interest, and the voters should condemn this behavior, regardless of which side you're on.
8:42 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Susan, you made my point for me. Kiffmeyer and Richie are both politicians. Both have an axe to grind. I wouldn't go to either for an objective viewpoint.
If you were assured your father was going to be able to vote absentee without being subject to all the possible obstacles you have envisioned and described in previous posts, what would your objection to Voter ID be?
8:46 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Edward wrote: "This vouching thing is a red herring. How many people do you know who would risk a felony conviction to get one or two extra votes?
It. Doesn't. Happen."
You. Don't. Know. That.
9:03 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Markus, if there was a notation of an exemption for those that would suffer a financial or physical hardship by having to leave their home to get an ID, I would now vote yes. I had a big concern about the cost of implementing this, but there are people here who's opinions I have come to respect, and if the FISCAL Conservatives are willing to take on the cost to implement a policy (that we can not prove is needed) then I guess I will give up my argument about cost.
12:09 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Susan, I watched a lengthy debate on the issue and remember hearing that after age 65 (I think it was 65) the valid ID does not expire. Might have been earlier than that even. There were other things as well to address the elderly and homebound. The people who are behind Voter ID really did think it through and they were exceedingly concerned about two things: ensuring all eligible voters can vote, and preventing fraud. I'm glad to hear you are open-minded about the whole thing.
10:02 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
JoJo, my concern is about voting yes or no when we don't know the details. I understand there was previous legislation (with details) that Dayton vetoed, but I am shocked that we are being asked to vote on something without details....in fact those details won't be decided until after the vote. I'm not quite sure why people (especially Conservatives) are comfortable with this. I can not vote yes to something that could disenfranchise so many of our citizens. If we had the details first, it would seem more honest to me....but we don't, we only have promises, and how well do we trust the promises of our politicians? Especially when it's the opposite side of the aisle making those promises to us. They say they will somehow make it possible for my dad to vote as easily as he has in the past, but no one has to hold them to this, once they get their 'yes' votes.
Al Anderson
7:52 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Edward -- while I don't (thankfully) know Wendy Rosen from Maryland --- here's a question for you -- if someone running for Congress would do what I mentioned (double voting through absentee ballot FL/registration in MD), how many people who will be much less vetted do the same. Red Herring? Claiming it is a red herring is a red herring
Mike Gindele
8:18 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
All I can say is , I am voting yes on both . One man one woman, and yes on voter I.D. We wouldnt have Al Franken if voter I.D. was required in 08, that being said we would not have Obama care either. Al Franken was the deciding vote in Obama care.
9:55 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
I am just sick to death of liberal religious organizations taking a stand on political topics with immunity, while mainstream and conservative church/religious organizations are constantly warned "don't you dare...you'll lose your non-profit status!" If I hadn't made up my mind on Voter ID already, I'd vote yes just because this liberal group says to vote no.
So irritating!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3HYoDmXzkY&feature=plcp is a fantastic video I stumbled on as a commercial before another video I was looking for started to play. Given my experience as an election judge, I have NO doubt this happens a lot in some areas.
10:43 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
I think you better put the 'bottle' away and go nighty-night!!
And PLEASE disqualify yourself from being an election judge - for obvious reasons!!
Matt Behning
10:00 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
wow, Kitzer... just a reply of insults and name calling? I'm not surprised, facts and logic are not on your side.
11:05 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
What in the world are you talking about, Kitzer? You define the classic liberal: skim a post; spew hatred, insults, and commands that barely relate!
11:21 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Yes, I'm a Liberal!! DAH!!
As far as 'skimming a post' -- I read, unlike you!!
Spew hatred?? Read your own comment, and then let's talk about HATRED!!
Insults?? if you want insults, I'll be glad to give you some!!
Commands?? Sorry, I'm not a GOP!!
James Sanna
12:11 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Kitzer - Take a deep breath, take five, and come back to this discussion once you're ready to take part in a civilized discussion about the issues rather than calling other commenters names.
JoJo - Your comments aren't models of civility, either. If you're taking issue with Kitzer's style of commenting, please address your comments to Kitzer's behavior directly, instead of making a blanket statement about all liberals.
Respect other commenters in this stream, please. Several of the other participants have been able to, until now. Please look to them as examples.
Al Anderson
9:34 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
James Sanna
Yet - when someone like Kitzer posts a message with highly personal insults about someone here - you choose to leave the posts here rather than to delete them.
Matt Behning
10:10 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Honestly James it is rare to find a liberal who'll reply without offensive name calling, links to liberal blogs as proof for their arguments, and a complete sense of how they're a victim and everything wrong in America is somehow linked to a republican (like bush) or a greedy rich person.
It would be nice if liberals wouldn't escalate every discussion to a heated debate on fairness.
Al Anderson
6:27 pm on Friday, October 26, 2012
James Sanna -- I see you didnt reply to my comment about deleting highly offensive insulting posts. I hope you agree that by leaving them up you are telling us that
1) Anyone has the opportunity to do likewise without having their post deleted and
2) You are ok with people using that form of communication here.
I find this one-sided approach to Patch editing to be far too common place with the Patch...which is why the Patch has little credibility with fiscal or social conservatives in regards to political/news features.
11:28 pm on Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Oh my. Mr Editor, James Sanna...I think you need to unplug this Kitzer person. Yikes!
Matt Behning
3:30 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
You all need to get your fact straight. Watch the debate Dan McGrath had with the liberal against voter ID (google it).
Then if you have more false beliefs that it'll cost voters money, that grandma who forgot her ID or a service veteran or blind person won't be able to vote check out
Seriously the TV ads against voter ID are void of facts and just trying to fear monger voters into believing "thousands of voters won't be able to vote"
Get the facts straight before you post more lies and accusations.
Tommy Johnson
8:10 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
***"There is no evidence of fraud in this election. And maybe it's the law out there; maybe it's the character of the people in Minnesota. We don't have any fraud."***
--- Joe Friedberg, Republican Attorney for Norm Coleman's Legal Team, at the Minnesota Supreme Court on June 1st, 2009
People can post all they want about all the supposed fraud in Minnesota's elections, but: after 7 months of the 2008 Recount, when push came to shove, the lead attorney for Coleman's Recount Team testified they found no evidence of fraud. None.
Reasonable people need to remember that.
There is no need to amend our State Constitution. If an election law needs to be changed - and the proponents of voter restriction have yet to prove it does - then change the law.
I'm asking reasonable people to protect our State Constitution and vote no on November 6th.
Matt Behning
3:34 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
We lead the country in voter fraud conviction since the 1930s I'd have to watch the debate over but there were convictions in the 08 and 10 elections, not to mention all who didn't get caught. Saying we don't need to check IDs with voting in this day in age when you can't drive, smoke, drink, attend school, work, pay taxes, bank, make any major purchase, hunt, fish, rent anything, loan a library book, etc without an ID is just sick.
Donald Lee
1:40 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
I need to look into Mr Friedburg's comments. Regardless, it is one man's opinion, and does not trump either contrary evidence or common sense.
Happy in St. Michael
9:14 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
No evidence of voter fraud, huh? What about the woman who worked in Secretary of State Mark Ritchie's office until a few months ago, when they discovered she had at least 2 I.D.s (1 fake), had used the fake one to get welfare for years, AND had voted under both I.D.s in elections! There's a documented case of voter and welfare fraud for you...coming from Ritchie's own office!!!! Look it up. The media actually covered it (albeit briefly).
How do you explain the 6,200 votes that cannot be accounted for from the 2008 election, voters who listed fake addresses, remote (uninhabited) areas, or places without residences? What about the ballot boxes that disappeared and then mysteriously reappeared during the recount?
Provisional balloting works in the 44 other states that have it and they estimate only 1.5 people per precinct would use it.
Tommy Johnson
9:42 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
***"What about the woman who worked in Secretary of State Mark Ritchie's office until a few months ago, when they discovered she had at least 2 I.D.s (1 fake), had used the fake one to get welfare for years, AND had voted under both I.D.s in elections! "***
Really? A quick google search reveals, from Fox9 News:
***"FOX 9 News checked to see if Victoria Ayoola had voted in recent elections, and it appears that she did; however, she did not use her legitimate identity to vote. "****
BTW - in your zeal to point out she was arrested while Mark Ritchie is Secretary of State, you forgot to note that she was HIRED by Mary Kiffmeyer - a Republican.
As far as those votes "that cannot be accounted for from the 2008 election" - are you suggesting that Coleman's Recount Team ignored them before their Lawyer told the State Supreme Court that there was no evidence of fraud?
All those millions of dollars Coleman's Recount Team spent, and they ignored them?
Reasonable people need to consider who is more credible: Coleman's Lawyer at the State Supreme Court, or the postings of anonymous people on blogs.
11:06 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
So.... how well trained will the people at he voting spots be at spotting fake ids?
I suspect that most of them will not be able to spot a decent fake ID and if they call out too many ID's as "fake" but are real - what then?
What happens if you go to vote - produce your ID and the person says "I think its fake" and turns you away - what then?
5:01 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Tommy - so how would Voter ID have stopped this woman from voting? Assuming her fake ID was decent - she would have shown up - produced the ID and voted without an issue.
Do you really think that all of these poll workers are gonna be pros at spotting Fake ID's? How much training will they receive? Will they be required to pass a test to ensure that they are able to spot a Fake ID? Will an eye test be required since spotting a decent fake ID can come down to fine details...
And no offense to the poll workers but given the age of the poll workers where I vote - and how close and hard they have to look to find names on the voting rolls - I am not feeling really positive about their ability to examine each ID and determine its authenticity.
Tommy Johnson
5:09 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Rob asked: ***Tommy - so how would Voter ID have stopped this woman from voting?***
It would not have stopped this woman from voting. Please join me in voting no (twice) on November 6th.
Donald Lee
1:43 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
It would not have stopped this woman from voting, but it WOULD have prevented her from voting effectively anonymously, allowing for some hope of prosecution.
Matt Behning
10:16 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
We used simple ID ap, a cheap internet card reader, and a $50 laptop in the 2012 republican primary elections.
Fake ID's won't work... repeat voting won't work... it's so user friendly a cave man could now be an election judge.
Seriously go to www.protectmyvote.com and get your facts straight before you give yourself a stroke thinking of more lies and what ifs about the voter ID amendment.
Happy in St. Michael
9:14 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Minnesota is only 1 of 2 states that allow vouching for voting (because it's INSANELY EASY to cheat the system), and the other state only allows you to vouch for 1 person. You can bring a bus full of people with you and vouch for each and every one of them...without any of them showing I.D. or proof of address (not that utility bills would be difficult to falsify, anyways). The number of states with Voter ID requirements is up to 33 and several more have it on the ballot this year. In these states, voter turnout has actually increased overall, even among the low-income and minority voters opponents CLAIM would be "disenfranchised" by the system.
Matt Behning
10:17 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Yep it used to be you could vouch for 50 people... now it's only 15 lol
Mike Gindele
1:19 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
It seems like we need an I.D. to do anything else in this country, why not produce I.D to vote?
4:20 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Unlike almost everything else, voting is a right, not a privilege. The burden should be on the government to prove I cannot vote, rather than on me to prove I can. (A database would be the best way to do that.) What constitutes a valid id? Two of my adult kids have lived in 4 different places in the last 2 years and don't have a photo ID with correct address (but do have bills, rental agreements, etc. that prove where they live). Do they get a new voter ID, free, every time they change precincts? Will they receive them in a timely manner? Will they be allowed time off from work to get them? If we choose to not show ID, how long a line will there be at the "come later with your id" place? Will I be allowed time off from work for that? My father-in-law hasn't driven in years and has no picture ID, nor do several of his friends.Will they be provided free transportation to obtain a valid id? If a driver's license is my valid voter id, do I get it free? If not, can I apply and receive a free voter id card, since I shouldn't have to pay to vote? How does a picture ID prevent a felon from voting? What if I don't look like my picture anymore? Who decides whether or not I look like my picture? What if they think I look like my picture, but my Hispanic neighbor doesn't look like her picture, and my black neighbor doesn't look like his picture? Would we be able to stop the use of fake ids just as "easily" as we stop the use of fake driver's licenses? Too many questions.
4:53 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
What will you do if a poll worker looks at your ID and says that they believe it is a forgery and they won't let you vote?
If we don't have people trained to a high level to spot good fake ID's - then what's the point - anyone who is willing to risk the penalties to commit voter fraud certainly aren't going to be deterred by the need to get a decent fake ID.
And if they won't be trained to spot a Fake ID - then either they will let people with Fake ID's go through or they will likely call some real ID's fake and deny people their right to vote...
8:25 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Kathy, (below my comment here)...
My goodness. PLEASE go to www.protectmyvote.org and learn a few things!!! Nearly all of your concerns are unfounded (I say nearly because I grew tired of your hand-wringing and what-if's). The tireless work of a lot of volunteers has brought us to this point. Fraud is real and is about to ensure the end of legitimate elections. If you aren't afraid for your candidate to stand on his or her own merit, then you MUST vote YES on the Voter ID question November 6th!
8:38 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
JoJo --- You're the one that is doing all the 'hand-wringing' and 'what if's' on this thread! (Your reply to Susan)
You remind me of an old-maid teacher --
'Don't cross the street, a car will run you over!!'
'Don't look at a man, he'll rape you!!'
'Don't look at the full moon, you'll go crazy!!'
-- Where were you on the evening of September 30th 2012??? --
10:08 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
"The amendment does not require an ID with the individual's current address; it is only used to verify identity." Election judges will decide whether I can vote on site or provisionally based on looking at me and my picture. Pretty subjective and subject to interpretation and discrimination. Any penalties for abuse of power? "Voters will always be able to obtain a free state-issued photo ID at any time." Again, does the law provide that my employer must allow me time off to do so, as it does with voting? Will I be provided transportation if I require it to get my ID? "It requires confirmation of identity and eligibility to vote (citizenship, not a felon, etc)." I had to pay money whenever I've needed to obtain a certified birth certificate. Will those now be free? "..would be provided a provisional ballot, allowing them a full additional week to certify their ballot and have it counted." Will I be able to get a birth certificate or other documents to prove my citizenship within a week? Will the law provide that my employer must allow me time off to do so? (More questions to come if I have time, on absentee and provisional ballots.)
Matt Behning
10:21 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
We used simple ID ap, cheap card readers, and $50 laptops in the 2012 republican primary elections without a hitch.
Fake ID's won't work... repeat voting won't work... it's so user friendly a cave man could now be an election judge.
Seriously go to www.protectmyvote.com and get your facts straight before you give yourself a stroke thinking of more lies and what ifs about the voter ID amendment.
8:04 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
The amendment itself does not answer many of my questions. At no cost - does that include no cost to myself in terms of lost work time, in terms of obtaining a birth certificate, for example, to prove my citizenship? Can anyone tell me for sure that the law won't require, say, those moving within past 30 days to go to the downtown Minneapolis courthouse to vote, rather than their precinct? Nothing is said about the timeliness with which the state must provide the id. "Valid government issued ID" is not defined; it says nothing about utility bills + old id. What constitutes "substantially equivalent identity and eligibility verification" for absentee ballots? Still too many questions (and I have more, those are just examples).
10:16 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Kathy is confusing the amendment with a statute. The amendment is not supposed to have that level of detail in it. That is left to the legislature to hammer out in the statute it creates.
Also, voting is not a right, it is a qualified privilege which can be taken away or not granted at all if the person doesn't meet eligibility requirements. It happens all the time to citizens under 18, those convicted of a felony, those deemed insane or no longer in charge of their faculties. See Alexander v Mineta (2000).
Additionally, If you don't have a birth certificate, naturalization papers or passport (which requires a birth certificate to get), how did you register to vote in the first place? What documentation did you use to prove citizenship? Your comment about the 'burden' of having to get a birth ceritificate is ridiculous as we ALL had to get such documents to register in the first place.
And Rob's assertions are rebutted below, but for ease: all his 'what if' statements are based on the flawed assumption that the state will adopt a certain system for ID. We don't know what they will adopt yet, all we know for sure is the system proposed last year and vetoed by Dayton, would not require election judges to figure out if an ID is real or not. All ID's can be scanned like a credit card and the proposed system called for that.
All this hysteria from Rob, Kathy, et al is just that. None of it is based in fact nor a proper understanding of the law.
Jesse M.
5:25 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
To: Tommy Johnson, Margaret Richardson Kathy, Rob¬_h78 and Ken in MN,
Please stop confusing these folks and this vote with facts and logical reasoning. People would rather buy into the fear and rhetoric then be bothered with hard evidence, or in this case, the lack thereof. Unfortunately, some people will believe the sensationalism that they hear on Fox News and take it as gospel. There is no way, in their minds, that any other views can be correct, or even feasible, so trying to shower them with the facts is like trying to put out a grease fire with water.
I applaud your efforts, but some just feel the need to tell others what to do and how to live, like it's any of their business, or they fabricate problems where problems just don't exist. There's just not much you can do about it. Hopefully MN voters will speak loud enough at the ballot box to put an end to some of this ridiculousness.
Thanks for trying, though!
Mike Gindele
7:35 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Perhaps we should give the voters the option of producing 3 forms of I.D.. A valid drivers license, a current property tax statement or a current pay stub. If you dont have either one of those then you dont contribute to society therefore you should not get to vote.
7:55 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
That's great Mike, you just wiped out a whole group of retired people who don't drive and rent a home or live in a nursing home....never mind that they spent up to 50 years of their life working and paying taxes.
8:04 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
To Susan: Election judge heads are going to assisted living facilities next week so residents can vote easily. And I doubt Mike meant to omit non-drivers valid ID options, which will be counted as valid ID to vote. For your last point, maybe you should spend some time checking around your neighborhood and offering to drive your elderly neighbors to the poll instead of using them to make a weak point. That's what we do and encourage others to do.
8:16 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
JoJo - I'm sure you would stoop to drive anyone to the polls!!
After all, you'll be sitting there and claiming FRAUD on anyone who happens to have his hair parted on the wrong side or if they have (GASP!!) their ears double pierced!!
8:23 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
JoJo, you have no idea what you are talking about when giving me advice. As someone with a quadriplegic housebound father, I know more about this amendment and it's positives and negatives than most posting here combined. My comment was a direct reply to Mike's comment. How about if you keep your suggestions to yourself when you know nothing about a person's life and/or intentions.
It's funny, other "election judges" and officials have posted comments on other threads about the issue and they seem to contradict your (educated) opinions.
8:25 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Susan -- AWESOME reply to JoJo!!
As I've stated before -- 'IT' should disqualify ITself from being an election judge!!
10:12 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
"If you dont have either one of those then you dont contribute to society therefore you should not get to vote." Like if you don't own property, you can't vote? Who are you to judge whether or not I'm "contributing to society"? Should "contributing to society" (and by whose judgment?) be a requirement for voting? Pretty scary.
7:58 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Kathy, you list so many "what-if"s my head is spinning...have you not heard of the provisional ballot nearly all other states use when someone wants to vote but can't produce a valid ID on election day? Provisional ballots are the best and only fair way to deal with that issue.
As an election judge, I can assure you that it will not happen, rob_h78. We can't just say "naw, I don't think that's valid". If we could, we could turn voters down in an arbitrary fashion right now.
I really wish you nay-sayers would stop wringing your hands and read the ProtectMyVote.com information. Try as you might, you can't make the info there false by claiming it is often enough. I did some early volunteering with them and am shocked that people actually claim fraud isn't a problem. I dare say it's those who rely on, or commit, voter fraud that are fighting this one with the most gusto because they have so much to lose. (ring true, anyone?!?)
VOTE YES FOR VOTER ID. Fair, not fraud. THANKS!!!
8:09 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Sooo - JoJo - I guess, according to you and ONLY you, that ANYONE that votes NO to this irresponsile travesty, is commiting FRAUD!!
8:19 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Susan, just read a bit more of your postings...
As an election judge in 2008, two of us witnessed first hand a fraud attempt. A man came in with a postcard showing that "he" (who knows, since we couldn't ask for ID) had registered to vote. Yep, the card made it to him. However, it was for an apartment building in town, and both of us were pretty sure the address "406B" or similar didn't exist. We don't have buildings that tall in town, and it would be unusual to have a "B" on it. Once we noted that he wasn't listed in the book, we knew with near certainty that we had a fraud attempt in our hands. We sent him to the registration table, explaining that something went wrong and he needed to register if he wanted to vote. After talking with a woman at the table for a minute or two, I watching him bolt up and out the door in a full run. You can't tell me that wasn't a foiled attempt at fraud. Why was it foiled? We're a small town and we were all watching him, and no one was available to vouch for him. I have no doubt if he was in Hennepin county he would have voted no problem. Finding someone to vouch for a stranger is pretty simple in many poll places. Election day registration must end, and be replaced by provisional balloting. We want every legitimate vote to count! VOTE YES FOR VOTER ID!
8:31 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
JoJo, if the wording on the ballot indicated a clear exemption where a physical or financial hardship was present - like my dad, or as they did with the "free" ID notation, I would consider voting yes. But since I don't trust our Republican leadership to give this exemption, I will be voting no.
Have no fear though, I am sure this thing will pass as most people don't understand the realities of why many people don't have an ID. Being as those with IDs outnumber those without, it obvious to see how this will go...it's a shame being as we actually live in a republic, not a democracy.
6:11 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
Susan, you say you don't trust the Republican leadership to provide exemptions, but do you trust the Democratic leadership not to be interested in continuing to receive fraudulent votes?
And they are receiving them. I watch it happen every election, and not a single case could be prosecuted, much less proven, but with voter ID, they could be prevented.
8:21 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
I trust that no election official, regardless of party affiliation, would knowingly accept a fraudulent ballot.
8:58 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
There's no way to know if they are fraudulent or not. That's the whole problem. The ballots are anonymous. There is no possible way to retrieve a fraudulent ballot, and no possible way, in most cases, to find out exactly who it was that cast the fraudulent ballot. There was recently a story about a man trying to prove how easy and anonymous voter fraud is. He walked into the polling place in Eric Holder's district in Washington DC and asks if they had an "Eric Holder" on the list. They hand him Eric Holder's ballot without question and he could have used it. He, of course didn't. But if he were actually trying to commit voter fraud, how would anyone ever find out who he really was and prosecuted the case? How? This is why liberals say there is no problem with voter fraud, because there are very few prosecutions. There are very few prosecutions because it is a nearly impossible case to prosecute.
And the cases I see every election are vans full of Hispanics being brought to the polling place a block from my house and two people in the van vouch for them all. Their ballots are not traceable, they are essentially anonymous, and how would you ever retrieve any of these individuals to prosecute them for fraud? They just get back in the vans and leave, never to be seen again until the next election.
Voter ID could prevent all of this.
Al Anderson
8:35 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
This is how one of the Democrats' main operatives feels about who understands the realities of life
8:52 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Al, I can find this quote all over the right's blogs, but I can't seem to find when or where Mr. Carville said it. Do you have any other info? There is nothing on poltifact.com or factcheck.org, and all I can find online is comments from the left saying that the original blogger made it up. Have you found any other info?
11:43 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Kathy, to your comment above, quoting - "Should "contributing to society" (and by whose judgment?) be a requirement for voting? Pretty scary."
Here's the thing. There is no thought police. It's NOT scary that someone thinks ANYTHING. This guy isn't about to go around trying to enforce his statement...he's just expressing frustration. It's when people want to enact certain things that it becomes scary. Much like the leftist policies we are staring at today. It's scary that Obama is forcing us to purchase something or pay a fine for choosing not to or to do something not on his list. It's not scary that someone, including myself, might think those who aren't participating and contributing to society shouldn't vote. The uninformed should not vote. There. Scary? That's should not. I didn't say we should prevent the uninformed from voting.
12:14 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
Kitzer, Susan...it appears my work is done here. I can't make you believe the truth, but giving your ability to learn the benefit of the doubt for a short time was worth it. That was fun! VOTE YES!
5:02 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
I'm really going to miss the H*ll out of you!!
Did you really believe that by LYING you could make us believe you???
Our learning ability TOWERS over yours any day!!
WE are NOT brainwashed!!!
Hope you have fun with your continued POISONING!!
12:18 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Mike Gindele
"Perhaps we should give the voters the option of producing 3 forms of I.D.. A valid drivers license, a current property tax statement or a current pay stub. If you dont have either one of those then you dont contribute to society therefore you should not get to vote."
>>> Yeah - it wouldn't be hard to fake a "current pay stub" or property tax paperwork because they are always so tricky with their black ink (and perhaps few other colors) on decent paper...
Even a DL's - younger people have been using fake ID's to buy beers for decades and that's with people looking at the ID's who look at ID's every day (or should be) - we'll have people who are looking at ID's once every two years or so for one day...
This whole thing is looking more and more like a sad attempt at protecting the Sanctity of the Ballot box.
But, Mike, I do thank you for really narrowing down what Voter ID is all about - "you don't contribute to society therefore you should not get to vote."
That's really nailing the whole thing on the head my friend - you people who support this believe that only people who you deem as worthy should be allowed vote.
Why don't you just come out say that you think that only white, male, landowners should vote and just cut through the b.s.
Mike Gindele
1:17 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Rob ,obviously you are racist because this mater has nothing to do with weather a person is black or white, male or female. You must be thinking black people are worthless and dont have jobs and dont own property. Thats what I get out of reading your last statement.
2:42 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Nice try Mike but you are the one who wrote: "Perhaps we should give the voters the option of producing 3 forms of I.D.. A valid drivers license, a current property tax statement or a current pay stub. If you dont have either one of those then you dont contribute to society therefore you should not get to vote."
You are the one who brought your and the whole issue's reality to light on this thread - it has nothing to do with "Voter Fraud" it has to simply with eliminating people who people like you don't think should be able to vote.
Now, if you construed this statement to myself being racist: "Why don't you just come out say that you think that only white, male, landowners should vote and just cut through the b.s." clearly you need to re-read the statement or have someone explain it to you :)
I can understand you will want to redirect attention from what you wrote.
2:58 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
You all are aware that if Voter ID passes the way it will be finally be implemented will be determined by the upcoming Minnesota Legislature aren't you?
The implementation rules aren't written in stone (it is only a "valid government-issued photographic identification") yet so be careful what you vote for, because you are voting for the Government to be able to enact restrictions on how you can vote - before you even know exactly what those restrictions will be or how they will be implemented...
If Voter ID does pass we must ensure that fraudulent ID's cannot be successfully used and since we all want to ensure that not even a SINGLE fraudulent vote is cast here is what we should start with:
1) Every Poll Worker must go through a minimum of 10 hours of training that includes training on spotting fraudulent ID's.
2) Then every Poll Worker would be required to take a test where they work in a realistic scenario where they will see hundreds of people wanting to vote and some will have fraudulent ID's.
3) A Poll Worker must correctly identify every single fraudulent ID and then deny that person the vote - and if they even make a single mistake they will not be able to work a Voting Location until they can pass this test.
Because if even a Single Fraudulent ID is allowed such that a Fraudulent Vote is cast, then we all are disenfranchised and isn't the Sanctity of the Ballot our #1 Concern?
6:54 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Rob needs to get a clue. The government already has the authority to restrict who is eligible to vote.
"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified.'
As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments.... the U.S. is one of just 11 nations among 120 or so constitutional democracies that fail to guarantee a right to vote in their constitutions."
Therefore, each legislature has the constitutional authority to decide what constitutes 'eligibility' for each state. Thus some states take away the franchise from felons for life and others only for a period of time. So, by definition, if the legislature decides that a person must prove they are who they claim in order to vote, then failing to do so automatically make them 'ineligible.' So no 'eligible' voter is denied.
And Rob's numbered points are wrong, because they assume the legislature will adopt a certain system over another which no one can guarantee. All we can say is that the system proposed in the legislation that Dayton vetoed would not require ANY of the things Rob asserts.
His sarcasm aside, the security of our election system IS the main concern.
Mike Gindele
5:39 pm on Friday, October 19, 2012
Erica, Yes we do have different view points, but I do still love you. Always will, you are the mother of my boys. And yes, you did sign up for government assistance with our 1st born son. The thing is ,I was working and paying taxes at that time and still am, plus I had my own insurance. Not looking to argue with you pretty lady.
margaret richardson
8:21 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Back to where I started. Here is the League of Women Voter's guide to the real meaning and implications of the amendment
If you are going to comment, please address the issues cited.
10:02 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Yes, by all means - back to where we started. And here are, once again, the links to information that puts the lie to everything Margaret and the League of partisan Liberal Voters would have you believe about Voter ID.
And as added proof, if she and the LPLV are correct, then where are the hundreds of news stories over the past 2 decades from the 33 states that currently have voter ID reporting all the disenfranchised seniors, collge students and minorities? Trick question, THERE ARE NONE. So this isn't 2 hypotehtical points of view arguing their cases. One side is hypothetical and the other has more than 20 years of real-world implementation.
33 states with voter ID laws
Links showing the LPLV assertions are false
Donald Lee
1:24 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
The Washington Post story - listing the 33 states with Voter ID is a great resource. Thank you.
8:37 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
"It's when people want to enact certain things that it becomes scary." The laws we enact are a direct result of the leadership we have elected. People have the power to elect their leaders. When you start restricting "who can vote and who can't", you begin to remove the power of the people to elect their leaders, and yes, that is scary. Restricting "who can vote and who can't" to increasingly subjective and arbitrary criteria begins with a bunch of like-minded people saying, for example, "you shouldn't be able to vote if you don't contribute to society" and ends with laws like those of WWII Germany. Your view is that people who shouldn't be voting are voting. My view is that making it inconvenient or costly to vote is a subtle but effective way to restrict certain otherwise valid voters from voting. Spell out much more clearly in the amendment how specifically it will work, leave almost nothing to laws that can be changed every time control of the legislature changes, and then I'll vote for it.
9:26 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Since Kathy doesn't seem to read comments, I'll repeat myself here:
The government already has the authority to restrict who is eligible to vote.
"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified.'
As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments.... the U.S. is one of just 11 nations among 120 or so constitutional democracies that fail to guarantee a right to vote in their constitutions."
Therefore, each legislature has the constitutional authority to decide what constitutes 'eligibility' for each state. Thus some states take away the franchise from felons for life and others only for a period of time. So, by definition, if the legislature decides that a person must prove they are who they claim in order to vote, then failing to do so automatically make them 'ineligible.' So no 'eligible' voter is denied.
10:16 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
David, - so you are ok with handing over a "blank check" to the politicians to determine what the ID will be, how it will be implemented, how it will be verified at the booth, etc...?
I don't know but it if ironic that many of the people who don't really trust the government, don't like government intrusion, etc... are suddenly willing to run to the ballot box to give politicians more control over what will be needed to vote...
Now, you may "trust" Republicans or Democrats (or maybe neither so much as I don't really trust either side) but let's say you "trust" Republicans to implement this in a way you find acceptable...
Minnesota is a state were power will swing back and forth and I don't see anything that would keep Democrats from changing whatever rules are put in place for "Voter ID" once they are back in power - and if somehow Democrats gain control in 2012 - they will have the majority power to push how "they" want to implement it...
While I will vote "No" on Voter ID, if it passes, it should be lots of fun to watch the fireworks once voters realize that the "can of worms" has been opened and the fight will be on to determine "how" this will be implemented :)
10:26 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Yes, Rob. Just as we hand a 'blank check' to the legislature on EVERY law they pass. And were you just as outraged with the Legacy Amendment a few years ago? That had no details either and we 'handed a blank check' to the legislature on that as well.
Your 'conservatives don't trust government' meme is funny given the fact that this amendment actually forces the government to account for who is voting in the election as opposed to now where we have no clue who is voting and all sorts of schemes can be (and are, given the convictions) perpetrated on the People when gov't is not held to account. Very funny, Rob.
And if you don't 'trust' either side to craft this legislation, then are you also against all the thousands of other statutes they craft each year, or is it just this one? And, yes, the legislature will be able to amend the statute in the future, but we have the power to say who will be IN that legislature through elections. What part of a Representative Republic don't you get? This amendment will help ensure that the actuall WILL of the people elects who they truly want making and amending those laws.
margaret richardson
10:25 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
David - from Pro Publica..."But prior to the 2006 election, no state ever required a voter to produce a government-issued photo ID as a condition to voting."
10:49 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
My bad, it's only been 1 decade for a photo ID, 2 decades for non-photo ID.
"Voter ID has been a hot topic in state legislatures over the past decade. Since 2001, nearly 1,000 bills have been introduced in a total of 46 states. Twenty-four states have passed major legislation during the period 2003-2012 (not including gubernatorial vetoes in five states in 2011), and those bills are summarized in the timeline below."
Margaret should really get more impartial sources than Pro Publica and "truth Out'
So my statement still stands. WHERE are the hundreds of news reports of disenfranchised eligible voters?
Donald Lee
1:29 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
I have a name for this thing about requiring photo ID for voting. It's called "progress".
margaret richardson
10:26 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Better yet, read the whole article.
margaret richardson
10:32 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Not to change the subject, but I think this is a far more serious and real issue with regard to voting.
Exit polling should be done as a back up smell-test measure. Accuracy and transparency matters. Looks like the shiny-object of voter ID is obscuring this critical issue.
10:51 am on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Exit polling as a back up measure? You must be joking. You mean where people have the right to refuse answering, and many do, thuse making it an incomplete survey? But you'd use that as a 'smell-test"? Why not just use the polls from the previous month? They would have just as much validity.
There's only one poll that counts, and that's the one taken on election day by those who choose to vote.
Donald Lee
1:23 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Although I take issue with many of the points in the article, the more eyes we have on the election process, the harder it is to cheat.
The election judges are supposed to post the election results (minus the absentee ballots) in a "public place" at the end of election day. I encourage everyone who votes close to 8 PM to ask for that posting, and write down the results. Compare them to the results you see reported the next day. You should see no surprises.
9:58 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
To Donald Lee's suggestion re: posting election day results:
I closed down our ballot box at the primary, which is done with one member each from two major parties. I take a picture of the election results tape before it's even done printing the copies. Some of the results tapes get put into various envelopes and sealed, and one goes to city hall to be posted. We haven't had anyone else ask to see the tape at 8pm (other than me before I became an election judge) but would welcome it. All polling places should. I especially like MN Majority's recommendation to take a photo of the results tape. Anyone can do it. Since we still can't ask for ID's, it's one of the few things we can do.
Donald Lee
10:06 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
I'd like this to go viral. Pass it on. We need a slogan: "keep it clean - snap the tape". ;->
margaret richardson
12:03 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
But what is your response to our privatized election security? I am thankful that MN has paper ballots.
Donald Lee
1:38 pm on Saturday, October 20, 2012
Computers are tools, not solutions.
There was an article recently in the Communications of the ACM (professional computer science geek magazine) about so-called "on-line" voting, and various ways to do voting "electronically". The article discussed at length how completely inadequate software and hardware technology is to handle voting. The conclusion of the article was that computers may NEVER be up to the task. The article also spent a lot of time complaining how hard it is to get people to understand how bad it is, and why it should NOT be used. (I frequently hear the question: "why can't we just vote on-line?" - A: because it's way too easy to screw it up.)
When the priority is on integrity and accuracy, nothing beats paper and diligent election judges. There are no short-cuts, either.
5:24 pm on Sunday, October 21, 2012
TEA party attorney general in VA decides to ignore Republican voter registration fraud
Donald Lee
7:11 pm on Sunday, October 21, 2012
This is the sort of thing that makes people cynical. I don't know anything about this case, and there MAY be reason for the attorney general is not investigating, but if that AG is tossing applications for partisan reasons, he should be condemned for it. Using his office to corrupt elections should be criminal. If guilty he should be held accountable.
7:30 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012
Dems at least appear to be more blatant about their intent to defraud voters.
7:45 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012
And here's Mark Ritche (D-ACORN) caught ignoring DFL voter fraud in 2008.
Lawrence Gordon
6:51 pm on Wednesday, October 31, 2012
In a written statement... Bishop Peter Rogness said "the fundamental issue that brings us here is our concern for those for whom this step – which seems easy for most in the mainstream – becomes a barrier to participating in the shaping of our public life together."
I would really like to see the proof that voter id prevents anyone from participating in the shaping of our public life together or disenfranchises anyone who has a legal right to vote in his home precinct.
tory burch flats
3:13 am on Monday, November 26, 2012
Ok at this moment, We going to show you precisely what these standards


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It's time for us to clean up Altus! The first city wide cleanup event is scheduled for this Saturday, Feb. 23, 2013, from 8 a.m. to noon. Volunteers will meet at the Altus Rotary Center on E. Cypress, across from the Altus High School Cafeteria, between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. Please come inside the building to register and pick up your trash bags.
The City of Altus will have a roll off located at the community center for trash collection.
The schedule will include returning the trash by noon. McDonald's of Altus will provide coupons to all workers.
Goals of this group include keeping Altus looking as good as possible and keeping trash out of the main waterways in the area.
All businesses along the major thoroughfares have been notified of the clean-up effort and are asked to clean up areas in front, back and sides if their building.
This is a cooperative effort between the Altus Chamber of Commerce, City of Altus, Main Street Altus, Altus AFB, Altus Rotary, Altus Lions, Altus Kiwanis Club, Jackson County Health Action Team – Nutrition and Fitness Task Force, Western Oklahoma State College, Southwest Technology Center , Altus Realtors, OSU Extension Center – 4H Clubs, Boy Scouts, area churches, McDonald's and hopefully many other businesses. The Altus Times, KEYB and KWHW radio stations are also helping, as well as many individuals. Anyone interested in joining this effort is asked to call the Altus Chamber of Commerce at 580-482-0210 to sign up.
More and more citizens are quietly and responsibly picking up trash in their areas. They are to be commended for their efforts. All citizens are encouraged to adopt this selfless attitude and clean up their own property, mow, edge and spray their yards for weeds. If we all do this won't our city be bright and shiny.

subset: commoncrawl


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It's time for another round of Editor's Choice Awards here on Poptent. The team here loves going back though assignments like SpaghettiO's, each and every submission is worthy of some praise. Fantastic job. We wish we could award cash to each and every submission, but until that dream becomes a reality we will be sticking to our standard Editor's Choice Awards. Here we go.
Congratulations to Spencer Maley who will be awarded the top award of $500 for his epic animation entitled "The Monster of Meatball Cove 2″ – if you have yet to check it out, it's a must see. Check it out below, or over in our results gallery.
While you are over in our results gallery make sure you check out the four other ECA winners – LACproductions, arbiesen, feefofum, and Outlier_Media. Each producer will be taking home $250, sweet right? We also awarded a whole slew of honorable mentions, each and every one of them rocks.
That's going to wrap this assignment up. Thank you all for participating and we will see you all around the 'tent!


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Coupons can not be applied to all brands, in some cases our agreements with manufacturers do not allow the use of Cymax coupons. If you have tried to apply a coupon to your cart, it could be that the manufacturer has chosen to restrict retailers from offering coupons for their products.
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This library style multimedia storage unit, with a central divider, is designed to accommodate any combination of media in a medium-sized collection. It makes efficient use of space and boasts a considerable amount of storage. Fully adjustable shelves can be set to any position to accommodate your collection.
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Good product
By Jordie
from Washington State
Comments about Prepac Double Width CD DVD Wall Storage in Cherry and Black:
Easy to assemble and works well for cd storage
Great shelving for the price.
By Mike the CD man
from Herrin Illinois
About Me Audiophile, Movie Enthusiast, Practical, Tech Savvy
The double width gives added support to the shelf units and the shelves don't sag like cheaper units I've owned in the past. I use it strictly for storing CD's and plan on buying another for DVD storage. Great product, I would recomend it to anyone.
Great Buy
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About Me Movie Enthusiast
It's the second DVD storage furniture that we buy at Cymax from Prepac and we are very satisfied. [...]
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"I don't always read blogs, but when I do, I prefer Team Dicky."
- The world's most irritating man
I've been out of the blogging game for a while. And when I don't blog, I don't read blogs...except for Team Dicky. When other people think about cycling blogs, they think about Fat Cyclist or Bike Snob, not me. Bike Snob? Too edgy. Fat Cyclist? Not edgy enough. Team Dicky? Just the right ratio of edginess to non-edginess (I believe it's a two-to-one ratio). Another reason Rich Dillen, aka "Team Dicky" is superior to Fatty and Snobby is that he can lead a tour in the Pisgah National Forest and shred and rip the gnar on a 29er single speed. And that is just what he did yesterday.
Nice ByStickel.
Dicky met me at the Fish Hatchery down in Brevard. I'd gotten there an hour early to swap out my wussy-ass tires and huge-mongo gear I had on for last week's Ronde 3.0 — an on/off-road 70 mile race in Boston-ish best suited to cross bikes, not single speed 29ers (what we lacked in open-road speed, we made up for with radness in the trail sections...and then we flatted a lot and lost focus). The set up I had on my One 9 was more ideal for 26 mph, rail trail pace lines than churning up three mile climbs in The Pisgah. My gear was a 34 X 16 and my tires were 1.9 low tread total lameness.
Here's the stupid part.
I had shortened my chain to accomodate the silly-big gear and I had neglected to bring a new chain or the few links necessary to rectify the situation with me to NC. There were plenty of larger cogs in the miniature van, but no chains. How Alanis-Morisette-ironic.
The tire swap went well. Any day you can set up some tubeless tires in a parking lot without a compressor is a good day. There may be a time lapse video of that process later. All the angry weridos who followed me over here from BikeRumor! can sit there and tell me how I'm doing it all wrong – "YOU DIDN'T INVERT THE BOTTLE OF STAN'S LONG ENOUGH...GAWD F—K!"
The above bike belongs to Marshall "Mtn. Air Roasting" Hance. He did not come ride bikes for fun with us in Pisgah. He went down to South Carolina to race his bike. Marshall is wicked SMAAHT and hence he has discovered the truth about singlespeed chain tensioners: they all suck a big fat thing that you suck on and the only real solution to tensioning the chain on a bike that isn't a real single speed is to use a road derailleur that is high on quality short on caginess.
Just remember: if you argue that point with me, you're also arguing with Marshall "I Will Un-F*cking Friend You On Facebook" Hance. Watch out.
And while we're talking about anachronistic photos...
During Boone Roubaix I jetted ahead of the race in the miniature van to scout out some sweet, wide shots of the riders. I felt like I was safely ahead of the field, so I strolled into this place to grab a coffee and some muffins...then the race blew by. I ran out the door spilling coffee and fumbling for my keys. I think I remembered to pay.
This will make sense in a second, bear with me.
On Saturday night when I rolled into Asheville, I went straight out to meet Shanna "Endless Bike" Powell. I don't think I really had dinner. As I was driving home solo at about midnight, I started looking for places to eat. I was sitting at an intersection when a guy walked up to my miniature vehicle. He motioned for me to roll down my window, and I did. "Hey man, do you want some free pizza?" "Are you serious?" "It might taste like onions or some shit, but yeah." "Um...OK." "Cool, wait here." When he came back he was holding a large Little Caesar's pizza. He handed it through the window and said: "JESUS FUCKING LOVES YOU MAN!"
And that is what I had for dinner — Roofie and onion pizza, hold the roofies.
It wasn't an early night and the plan was to meet Dicky at 9:30 AM, about an hour away. But that's all right, I'd gotten a solid two-and-a-half-hours sleep on a deflated Therma-Rest in the back of a van the night before. I was feelin' good!
Another reason why I was feeling good in a non-Alanis-Morisette-ironic sense:
A (still life) picture of health.
Given the tight timeline I didn't have the leeway to stop for breakfast en route to the fish hatchery. Good thing there was half a cold-ish onion and roofie Jesus pizza in Miniature Boogie Van!
Thank you Jesus, some sketchy dude on the street, and Little Caesar.
The awesomeness of the ride in Pisgah with Dicky will be conveyed via video form. I did attempt to run him down like I did Jut Rut back in February...and I caught it all on video. What can I say, brakes don't work in the air. Speaking of videos...the Boone Roubaix highlights (set to a sweet Joe Strummer and The Mescaleros tune) are up.
Time for beers with Endless Bike Shanna and Pisgah Works Bruce.
I feel like I'm livin' the dream. Shoot, I better be livin' it because I sure as hell ain't sleeping enough to dream it.


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Clermont Real Estate — Homes For Sale in Clermont, FL
Clermont, FL Description
Cruising with the top down enjoying the rolling hills of Central Florida...Can this be right? Hills in Florida? Yes, it's true, but only in and around the area of scenic Clermont, in south Lake County. The rapidly growing city of Clermont is ideally positioned at the crossroads of Florida. Located 22 miles west of Orlando and 22...
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Saturday, 13 March 2010
Does a curved pinky (clinodactyly) equal Autism?
Jaylen gets evaluated by a developmental pediatrician every year. The doctor who did it last year was extremely thorough. She spent over 2 hours talking with him, playing with him, testing him, and looking him over.One thing in particular stood out to me after I got the paperwork, something she didn't say in person. It said that he had:
Clinodactyly of the fifth digit.
Well of course I had to go check that out! And if you Google it there are some fascinating results. Go ahead, do it. I'll wait...
Interesting right? There is a ton of info out there on this, why hadn't I ever heard of it? Here is a Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinodactyly.
Some scientists believe that the correlation between curvature of the fifth pinky and Autism is so strong that it can be a predictor of the spectrum disorder. Here is one site with some more about this: http://www.handresearch.com/news/never-underestimate-little-finger-pinky-pinkie.htm. I also found several studies relating Clinodactyly to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Down Syndrome also.
I remember that Jaylen was napping while I was doing this "research" and I couldn't wait for him to wake up. And sure enough, when he did I took a look and there is a slight bend in his pinkies. I have been checking the baby's pinkies too, but I think it may be too early to tell. There is a lot chub to look passed. But his left definitely looks curved. So we'll see if the theory holds true for him too.
Now, go ahead, get your kids and check those pinkies! I want to hear from my fellow Autie moms and moms of kids not on the spectrum, what are your findings? Let's do our own research and see what we think about the correlation. Does a curved pinky (clinodactyly) equal Autism?
********Please note, this is all in good fun (if you can call it that). I am not trying to diagnose or undiagnose any one's child or do a true scientific experiment. Just putting that out there since you all know my experiences from scary angry mommy social sites!*********
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Find out how to collect your favorite items
{ object_type: 'Exhibit Space',embed_type: 'image',embed_detail: 'http://myloc.gov/_assets/ExhibitSpaces/NWPavilion/Ambition/Assets/02248u_enlarge_125.Jpeg',embed_alt: 'Ambition',thumbnail: {url: 'http://myloc.gov/_assets/ExhibitSpaces/NWPavilion/Ambition/Assets/02248u_enlarge_125.Jpeg',alt: 'Ambition',height: '66',width: '125'} }
In the domed ceiling the artist has depicted Ambition, represented by the Unattainable Ideal, who holds the palm branch awarded for achievement and rides on a great winged horse. She is led by Fame, who holds the horse's bridle and blows her trumpet in the direction of the chaotic group of strivers below them. Ambition is shown as the incentive for all human efforts, in art and science.
On the left a murderer topples a tripod and looks back at the body of a miser whom he has just slain. Three figures reach desperately toward Fame: a helmeted warrior, a sculptor bearing a statuette of the Venus de Milo, and a man being held back by a temptress. A blind poet is seated and on the far right a jester looks toward the viewer, rather than at Fame, as he holds a skull in one hand and a statuette of Victory in the other. He mocks the strivings of personal ambition in this life, knowing that real fame comes only after death. The wall murals below represent a related area of achievement: Literature, Music, Art, and Science.


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Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | |
Testimonies: Diabetes |
"I went to the Wreck Bay Healing Rooms for prayer for both of my feet. They had been very sore and painful for a few weeks ... something to do with Diabetes. I had my feet washed and prayed for, then the Lord Jesus healed me right away. Thank you Jesus. Eileen" - Eileen H. on March 6th, 2013 | |
"As team was praying, specifically for my pancreas to begin to work, I felt a sharp pain in the right side of my abdomen and the word "transplant" came into my mind. I sensed the Lord was saying a transplant was on the way and that He has a new pancreas for me in His body part box. Praise Jesus. I receive." - Roy W. on August 27th, 2012 | |
"I was healed of neuropathy in hands and feet from nerve damage due to diabetes. My left hand was tingling to the beat of the band and now I can feel my hands, fingers, and toes. GO GOD!!" - Marcia D. on January 5th, 2012 | |
"Hi Phillip, I wanted to pass on a praise report to your team who prayed with me on Saturday for my dad. He had gone into the hospital Thursday morning by ambulance with what we found out to be double pneumonia (on top of copd, diabetes, and on dialysis) He was very bad off including hallucinations and confusion. He was just as bad when I saw him on Friday. I anointed him with oil and prayed for him before I left him Friday (though he didn't remember it). I didn't see him Saturday but heard he was not doing well. We prayed for him Saturday at the healing room and Janza saw whatever was there, leave him. I walked in his room yesterday and he was sitting in bed with a smile on his face. The hallucinations and confusion from the illness were GONE! He was feeling so much better. I anointed him and prayed for him before I left that the biopsy of his lungs they were doing today would be negative. I just had a spirit of praise all morning. I then got a call from my sister that the preliminary report from the biopsy is that it did not appear to be cancer!! Glory to God ! I am believing that to be the final diagnosis !! I really, really enjoy ministering with your team Saturday. They each have such wonderful unique gifts and will make a great team. I would love to be ministered to by them any time!! Love you all,Cindy, Washington HR" - Cindy H. on October 17th, 2011 | |
"One week ago, Ruben (10-year old) broke his arm in two places; he asked his parents to bring him to the Healing Rooms. During prayer, Ruben was able to straighten his fingers for the first time (since the injury) he reported that the pain was gone from his arm. He was also given strong prophetic words regarding his destiny, and he was encountered with a strong sense of the love and the presence of God. For about one hour, this young man alternated between laughing and sobbing because he was filled with the Holy Spirit and joy. After he received healing, Ruben wanted to pray for his Grandmaâs diabetes and eye problems; Rubenâs mother stood in for his Grandma, and he prayed for her healing. Afterward, Ruben could only say "He healed me," being too choked up to talk. An X-ray is scheduled for this coming Thursday." - Ruben on June 23rd, 2011 | |
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Testimonies Per Page: (5) [10] [25] [50] [ALL] |


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Design Article
Wireless audio distribution - the last 30 meters
Brent Allen, SMSC
Home owners long for the ability to place speakers anywhere in the home without having to worry about running audio cables and/or power cables across the floor. Similarly, they would like to be able to walk around the house wearing headphones or earbuds listening to their favourite music without disturbing other family members who may not share their musical interests. But wireless technology to date has always come with significant compromises, such as lower audio quality, poor radio performance, and frequent battery replacement/recharging, that have prevented the application from taking off.
This article discusses the audio quality characteristics that wireless technologies need to satisfy this application, and the trade-offs various wireless technologies present. Audio quality covers a range of topics involving metrics such as dynamic range and total harmonic distortion. In the context of wireless audio streaming, the performance of the radio channel also has an impact that must be considered in the category of audio quality.
Analog vs Digital
Most people are familiar with 'radio static'. When audio is carried over a radio channel using analog technology, there is no opportunity to correct any errors that occur during transmission so any small corruption of the radio channel results in an audible artefact in the audio stream. And radio connectivity in the real world is always imperfect.
Radio interference is pretty much unavoidable, especially when talking about consumer electronics devices using shared radio spectrum. But even when there are no other radios nearby, interference can be caused by multi-path fading, which is essentially the radio interfering with itself by bouncing off walls.
So when considering how to wirelessly stream high quality audio, we immediately turn to digital technology. Digital transmission of audio gives us the ability to detect transmission errors, correct them before they reach the listener, and take steps to avoid future errors.
Digital radios for consumer electronics, including wireless LAN (802.11b/g), Bluetooth, Zigbee, cordless telephones, and baby monitors use unlicensed radio spectrum, known in the U.S. as the Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) bands. The spectrum from 2.40GHz to 2.48GHz is an example of one of these bands. Any device wishing to communicate in this band must be able to deal with the interference generated by these other devices, as well as avoid causing undue interference with the other devices.
A robust overall solution must be able to re-transmit data corrupted by interference at another time and possibly on another radio channel when and where there is no interference. The ability of a wireless digital audio solution to do this depends on several factors:
- The size of the audio buffer determines how long the system can wait for interference to clear up before the audio stream is affected. The buffer allows the speaker/headphone to continue to play buffered data while the radio connection is being restored. Although larger buffers can deal with more interference, they also introduce more latency that can be unacceptable in certain applications.
- The peak bit rate of the radio channel determines how much time the radio must be active to transmit the audio data (the longer the radio is on, the more likely it will get affected by interference), and how quickly the radio can transmit data that has built up in the audio buffer to get ready for more interference.
- Minimum bandwidth requirement refers to the amount of spectrum required by the wireless solution (the more spectrum consumed, the more likely it will be affected by interference).
- Dynamic frequency diversity refers to the ability of the wireless audio solution to quickly move to another frequency, or channel, if the current channel is experiencing poor performance. Speed is critical.
Different solutions make different trade-offs of these elements. For example, several proprietary radio solutions use a Wi-Fi (802.11b/g) RF front end with a proprietary baseband. These solutions benefit from higher bit rates, but suffer from larger spectral footprints and may not be able to switch frequencies quickly.
Bluetooth solutions have a relatively low bit rate (forcing the use of lossy audio compression) and use Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) to get frequency diversity, but still have a minimum spectral footprint of about 20MHz which is similar to Wi-Fi (see figure below).
SMSC's Kleer technology is an example of a technology that has sufficient throughput to transmit lossless uncompressed audio, and only requires 3MHz of spectrum with 16 channels to select from. It is much easier to find 3MHz of available spectrum than it is to find 20MHz+, thus this type of radio is much less likely to cause interference (or suffer from interference) while coexisting with other radios (including other Kleer radios) in the same band.
Frank Eory
Great article, nicely covering the major issues of wireless digital audio distribution. I'm looking forward to trying out an SMSC-powered set of wireless speakers.
Besides the issues covered by the article, I think the number of audio streams supported is important as well. In home theatre system, the left and the right speak play different contents.
While there might actually be some value in wireless audio, using it just to avoid running wires is a terrible waste of spectrum. Remember that there is only so much spectrum, and when it is full there is no more room, and something loses. So yes, it is neat to be able to do this, but it does constitute a waste of spectrum.
The reason for not using up all of the spectrum today is that tomorrow something much more useful may arrive that would benefit us a lot more than not having to run speaker wires. That is one reason. Next, consider that these wireless systems offer no protection from interference by other systems using the same frequencies. Beyond that, there is an interesting realm of copying concern, if we have a digital transmission of some copy protected program, and the transmitted version is not copy protected, we have just defeated the "copy police". I admit that is a stretch, but it could get some folks excited. To repeat myself, when the spectrum is all used up, it is gone, and they aren't making spectrum any more.
Frank Eory
As the author points out, it's much easier to find 3 MHz of available spectrum in an ISM band than it is to find 20+ MHz. Yet even with the 20+ MHz needed for 802.11g or the 40 MHz needed for 802.11n, hundreds of millions of WiFi users are able to make their WiFi devices work, despite sharing the same spectrum -- with other WiFi users as well as with Bluetooth, Zigbee, cordless phones, baby monitors, etc.
The argument that tomorrow may bring a wireless application that is more beneficial is, in my opinion, a good argument for allocating even more spectrum for unlicensed ISM use -- not an argument for limiting ISM use to only those standards that are already established (WiFi, Bluetooth, etc.).
As for copy protection concerns, that is a good subject for an entirely different discussion about analog vs. unencrypted digital vs. encrypted digital content and the DMCA law...and why copying for personal use is permitted for the first two types of content, but not for the third (encrypted).


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Loosely based on Shahrnush Parsipur's magic-realist novel, Shirin Neshat's debut feature uses Iran's 1953 CIA-backed coup d'etat as a backdrop for examining the anatomy of the country's patriarchal society.
Over the course of several days, Women Without Men follows four women of varying social class and age as their lives converge in a haunting metaphorical orchard. All are at points of transition: Munis, the political activist; Zarin, the young prostitute; Fakhri, the unhappily married middle-aged upper cruster; and Faezeh, the innocent. Together, they struggle to find themselves amid the political and social turmoil of the time. … Read More