text:
Dear Chip,
Congratulations, once again, for far exceeding my expectations on how far a politician will go in misrepresenting the facts to peddle a worthless piece of legislation - in this case - HR 1162. HR 1162/HB 797 makes T-Splost look great in comparison (See Sunday's AJC article).
I can't believe you dragged Mark Richt into your propaganda piece. Has Georgia Tech, your alma mater, forbidden you to link your name with theirs in the same sentence?
Since you insist on bringing up SAT scores once again, I must give you the remedial SAT lecture. From the College Board site; "A Word About Comparing States and Schools - The SAT is a strong indicator of trends in the college-bound population, but it should never be used alone for such comparisions because demographics and other nonschool factors can have a strong effect on scores." In other words it's meaningless because the #1 Ranked State, Illinois, tests 5% of students and Georgia tests 80% - whether they plan on attending college or not.
What if you had the power to subject the Georgia Bull Dogs to such bogus ranking criteria? Talk about personal catastrophe!
And then we have your the "math is simple" argument. The only simple aspect of Georgia's QBE formula is your understanding of it. Check out this explanation and please get back to the voters. Hey, how did the polling go on that line? Guess we'll find out when we get robo calls in October.
Oh, and how about those cost efficient public charter schools you want to send all of Georgia's students to? No football stadiums (sorry Mr. Richt, Nerf football is all we will pay for), no performing arts centers, no baseball fields, no bus transportation, remedial needs funding? ESOL? AP courses? special needs kids? I really don't want to hear what your solution would be for those kids Chip.
Inaccurate? Who cares, right Chip?
Have a wonderful holiday weekend with your family and children who I understand don't attend public school,
Elizabeth Hooper
Jennifer Hall
5:41 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Absolutely on-target. Can't add a word to this one. Beautiful!
Elizabeth Hooper
9:15 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Thanks Jennifer,
We need to speak up or accept the consequences. Spread the word!
Steely Dan
9:43 am on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
The continued complaints about using SAT scores as a metric are humorous. GA may be testing 80% of its kids but given the 100% increase in per-child spending over the past 2 decades, why don't these SAT scores EVER EVER change? Regardless of the % of kids taking it, these stagnant-over-time scores prove that more money isn't the answer....though it's absolutely the ONLY answer that Traditional Public School (TPS) officials know of. Why haven't TPS been able to get us out of the SAT cellar? GA isn't the only state testing a large % of its students.
I'm curious - what's the explanation for our state's dismal HS Graduation rates? How will more funding fix those, seeing as how a 100% increase in per-child spending has done nothing to stem the tide of GA HS dropouts?
For all those who live in districts that are failing our children (APS, etc), 1162 must pass to give them the possibility of an exit from TPS Hell. For all other parents trapped in failing TPS, 1162 must pass for the same reason. Not everyone can just up & move, esp. in this depressed economy.
Perhaps if TPS held themselves to the same standards as charter schools, we may not have such issues. When Charter schools fail, their teachers & admins are fired and they go out of business. When TPS fail, their teachers & admins get raises and increases in funding without the necessity of making a single change.
Susan L.
5:52 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Oh, if this were only "a worthless piece of legislation" -- and, for the record, I agree with you that it is beneath contempt!! -- the harm that it will cause for the education of children all over the state of Georgia cannot be overstated. Shame on you, Mr. Rogers, for putting the profit margin of your friends and campaign contributors ahead of our children!!
Rebecca McCarthy
5:58 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Susan, Thanks for sharing. What specifically do you abhor about the legislation? I know how I feel but am curious what others are thinking.
Athens Mama
6:15 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
We all have a perspective on this. Yours is not more valid than the other side. Parents and students do not have public choices today and customer service in some schools is nil. How about the innocence stolen from my child and other children? How about the school receptionist who yelled at my child for printing his check-in slip (standard protocol) before eight o'clock in the morning? It goes on and on and on and on Ms. Hooper. How about the teachers who are making use of the federal and state tax dollars - making excuses for cursing at children? I've had enough excuses and dribble drabble about "we're doing this, we're doing that." Let's all just tell the truth here and admit that there's not going to be any change for people who abuse their posts as long as there is tenure, teacher unions, and high stakes testing. Your machine is sick, and I've had enough of all of you whose children haven't suffered the "guvment worker" mentality of some of these people. "Take a number and sit down. We'll get to you if and when we feel like it." You will do anything to protect a broken machine.
Steely Dan
9:53 am on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Well yeah, esp. when the 'broken machine' is generating BILLIONS of $$$ for local BOEs every year.
Can anyone look a parent of a child trapped in a hellhole district like APS and tell them that they really don't need the alternative a charter school provides and that the traditional public school model is doing just fine and providing a great, real-world education for their children?
Hint: Even APS teachers don't believe that: "Those kids are dumb as hell", according to one APS teacher:
Yet, when the BOE denies a charter request in the ATL District in order to shovel more money back to TPS in the district, parents will have no choice but to send their kids back to the dead-end-road of the APS if 1162 doesn't pass.
A vote for 1162 is a vote for giving ALL parents the chance at a better education for their kids, not just the ones who live in countys with forward-thinking BOEs.
Athens Mama
6:24 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Where's the accountability for the behavior that goes on? WHERE IS IT? TELL ME! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/30/psychological-abuse_n_1707140.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
If it were 15 years ago in my life, I would have gone public. PR, PR, PR - all anybody cares about. Where are the intellectuals who care about CHILDREN and CHILD DEVELOPMENT? You're telling one side of the story as if there aren't good reasons why a state agency has to be created in order to give Georgia parents more choices in education. I've dealt with it before - this "protect and defend" them at all costs. Your machine is throwing away a 1/3 of the children that enter into in some counties. And yet you cling to it as if reform is so simply at our fingertips. All we have to do is work with our local School Boards, right? They'll just be perfectly willing to give away their precious money - the precious money they keep spending on technology when first graders don't have parapros anymore and some kids with Special Needs are still undiagnosed and unserved. "Just keep feeding the machine....and everything will be ok.....support the public schools......" Well, Ms. Hooper, you must be in an area where you are LUCKY enough to trust every person the school district designates to care for your child if you have to work. I wouldn't have let my child stay alone for an hour with the teacher they wanted to assign us for an elementary grade.
Frank Jones
6:41 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Athens Mama...If the school receptionist is rude to you or your child, get with the Principal! If you or your child is treat unfairly, it is YOUR JOB to stand up. Whether we're talking traditional public schools or charter schools, you will encounter some people who are unknowingly brash or simply having a bad day...It isn't just a public school problem.
As to schools not being able to keep parapros in the rooms or adequately helping SPED children...the schools are doing the best they can with the money they're provided. Keep in mind that Chip Rogers and friends have been cutting school funding! Even now, while they're underfunding public schools, they are overfunding charter schools. Show them your anger and demand public schools be fully funded.
Lastly, comparing public schools to Country Walk daycare the sex abuse hysteria of the 80s and early 90s is hillarious. Most/many of the convictions were overturned as the children were coached and coersed to provide false testimony.
Kids First
9:18 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
And yet with all these cuts we have remained exactly where we were in the good times.
Athens Mama
6:56 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Sweetheart, nothing ever gets done in some schools. Some SPED kids are not diagnosed early, and so they remain in classrooms where their needs are not served, and the teacher can't teach with the distractions created. As far as showing my anger - I show my vote! I vote Democrat, unlike most of the rest of the state who keep putting conservative who vote "No" on Education over and over. Paul Broun, Saxby Chambliss, etc. etc. etc. Great job electing effective leaders Georgia.
Stevie Nicks
7:11 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
@Athens Mama...Sweetheart, keep throwing your vote away by voting for the Dems...what has that done to change education (or anything else) in GA? Personally, I vote for whomever I feel will do the best job, not because they have an R or a D by their name. If your local school isn't working for you what are you doing to fix it??? complaining about it here isn't enough!
Rebecca McCarthy
9:00 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
From what empowerED Georgia folks tell me, these schools approved by the privately run Charter School Commission won't have any room for Special Education students. Those children will remain in the public school system. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but these are for-profit "public" schools that won't serve the "public" because they won't provide many of the services that public schools do now. Athens Mama: sorry your experience with special education in Clarke County has been poor. Ours has been great. The school and the school district and the teachers have all had the goal of helping my child succeed. And guess what? She is!
Paula Schwanenflugel
9:22 am on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
I agree with Rebecca here. Unless the state also requires charters to allow attendance by ANY public school child (i.e., regardless of early achievement, social class, race, special ed status, prior school behavior and attendance, need for school bus transportation, and English language learner status, to name some things that tend to differ between public and charter), and for the same amount of money per child (current charters are heavily subsidized by corporations), there is no fair "choice" here for the taxpayers of Georgia.
Hal Schneider
12:20 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
You are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Charter schools have to use a lottery system when there are more applicants than seats available. They are NOT allowed to pick and chose who they will admit any more than a county public school. They ARE part of the PUBLIC school system. They ARE NOT private for profit schools. It is amazing how much disinformation is out there and being propagated. Everyone needs to spend some time actually LEARNING what this amendment does before perpetuating all of this misinformation!
8:45 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
To Rebecca: What I say to your special demands on Special Education is special charter for Special Education students. Why drain the resources from the big pot that should serve the majority? When each and every school is required to be equipped of hiring SE resources [from SE counselors, educators, and support staff], don't you think that's kind of inefficient when you could potentially pull all those resources into one center? This would also benefit those students who'd get the 'best of breed' education that are being supported by competitively selected SE resources who'd be drawn to centers like these as they may seek to be with others who are SE resources rather than being the sole representative at each of the schools where they're just a one minority voice. This is why we need SCHOOL CHOICE. Many parents who have special needs child may also love this idea because they know that they can receive more holistic approach to their special children as their overall daily school experiences so that they don't stick out but be able to mingle with all kinds of children who have different needs.
Jennifer Hall
8:37 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Hal, they may have to take them, but they CAN be "counseled out."
Hal Schneider
12:30 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Yes, Jennifer...as they can in ANY public school!
11:19 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
You are wrong on this. Every child is welcome at charter. We have downs kids, autistic kids, sensory kids and more and more.
Rae Harkness
11:26 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
That is so true..charters can't "pick and choose like magnet schools," get the facts right...
5:07 pm on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
@ Maly and Rae
I know the charters does take some children with special needs like down syndrome, but how long do they stay? ,I have spoken to some parents who left a charter school because the services they received were far inferior to those at traditional public schools. I also talked to a parent who that said she was told by the charter admins that the IEP needed to be modified because the charter school teacher ( a second year teacher) did not see the need for all of the modifications. Traditional public schools can't do that because it is against the law. can a charter school handle children in wheelchairs who have no motor skills and have a feeding tube and are in diapers? Traditional public schools do.
Jennifer Hall
8:17 pm on Saturday, October 6, 2012
Hal, a public school cannot counsel them out. If they are expelled for behavior, public options are found for them. They are not simply told "goodbye." If the child has an IEP, there are specific laws that must be followed for that. Keep this on the issue at hand. Is another non-elected agency needed in our government? No. Since the supreme court declared the commission illegal, 16 schools have applied to the state to open. All 16 were approved. It shows that the commission wasn't necessary then, isn't necessary now.
Frank Jones
10:02 pm on Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Athens Mama...Glad to hear you are a fellow Democrat. We need a few more as the Republicans are a fiasco in this state and elsewhere in the south. I'm hopeful that sooner, rather than later, moderate Republicans will see Deal, Rogers, Chambliss and the others as incompetent, zealots and vote them out.
Elizabeth Hooper
8:14 am on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
I think our public schools should be a "politician free " zone. Is nothing exempt from money and political influence? Obamas education policy is just as ineffective as Bushes was. HR 1162 is about people who don't live here parachuting in to impose their wants and views on our kids. If their experiment fails, there is no evidence that it is succeeding anywhere else except in specific, well managed instances, does anyone really think the foundations, "think tanks" and money men will say, "We're really sorry, let us fix the mess we made." This is top down , outside in, plan that is being executed across the country. We will all pay a step price for failure to speak up.
Thomas Hart
9:56 am on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
One of the most compelling elements of the school choice debate is the amazing way the pro-charter effort in Georgia cuts powerfully across every demographic. I witnessed Democrats and Republicans, conservative and liberal, rich and poor, urban and rural, teacher, parent, and student, and every race the melting pot touches, come together at the Charter School rally at the capitol. It was striking. They were calm, focused, and determined to make a difference in the future of their children, and they will. I was hoping that the debate would be more about substance than personal attack. Both sides have good points to make that would enrich the discussion and enable solutions. Your letter to Senator Rogers diminishes the debate by resorting to a personal, snarky, attack. You are setting a tone. I hope your future blog posts are more about your positions than personal attacks.
Elizabeth Hooper
12:25 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Please Thomas, when Chip Rogers stops misquoting facts at every opportunity he gets I'll start showing him respect. Don't you think Georgians deserve respect? Lying to people shows a lack of respect. He knows what he's doing. The fact that his lies wil effect millions of kids makes me physically ill. How about you?
1:36 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
Ms. Hoooper ...well said! Chip Rogers and company have been lying to the people of Cherokee County since the beginning of this. His manipulation of his fellow legislators to do his dirty work related to this amendment has not been forgotten by those of us who have been watching. From the redistricting of the School Board seats to remove opposition to his schemes to the Charter School Amendment, he has been up to his neck in this. Am at a total loss as to how how people fail to see him for what he is. I only wish his hotel deal had been a success as opposed the financial fiasco it was. Maybe that would have kept him busy.
Hal Schneider
1:56 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
We really need to take the personalities OUT of this decision! This is NOT about Chip Rogers! It is about whether we essentially want to shut down the charter school movement in this state by leaving the decision wholly up to the local BoE who has a serious conflict of interest! This is all about MONEY folks, and nothing else. What local BoE is going to vote to give up the state funding for a student AND allow competition to their monopoly! The current law is unworkable and needs to be fixed!
beth pfohl
1:04 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Elizabeth, I am sorry that the only experience you have had is that of the public schools in Georgia. My daughter attends the public Cherokee Charter School. She is thriving in the Cambridge Academy within the school. They are currently working a grade level above in the core subjects. I am hoping she can also attend a top college as my oldest son just did. This school is meeting all of our expectations and Chip is winning this battle. Your posts seem more rooted in anger and emotion than facts,
Elizabeth Hooper
1:44 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
beth, my posts have been rooted 100% in facts Have you read them? Please let me know precisely what part of Chips AJC opinion was factual? I'm happy that your experience with charter schools has been positive. To repeat, this debate isn't about whether the state of Georgia will or will not have charters schools. We have charter schools. Precisiely what more do you think Chip wants from the taxpayer and why do you think its a good idea to further remove the decision of what educational opportunites a community needs from the local community via an amendment to the constitution when charter petitioners ALREADY have that optiion? Please support your answer with facts.
No Name
1:29 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
When I read stories like this, I realize that the whole debate is tainted with everything BUT what is good for children. http://www.peachpundit.com/2012/08/23/governor-deal-vs-the-gwinnett-chamber-of-commerce/
Parents should be pulling their children out of the system be it public or charter. It is all politicized.
Frank Jones
9:39 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
No Name...There is no reason to pull a child out of a well run, quality school of which there are plenty in the area. I agree the whole school debate is politicized and big money/for-profit money is being thrown into the equation.
Ms. Hooper, myself, and others repeatedly present facts that 100% dispute the mis-leading and flat out wrong information presented by the anti-traditional folks. Most of us support and agree that charters should be available, we just don't believe that the decision should rest at the state level with an appointed board. Instead, we'd prefer the traditional schools to have the freedom and flexibility to operate in a more charter-like way.
The best thing for the children is to have parents actively involved in their overall education...This includes helping with homework/projects, challenging them, encouraging them to read the paper/magazines/etc, discussing current events/history/other topics, taking trips, and more. The more of this, the more the student will learn and learn to reason.
No school can or should teach a child everything he/she needs to know.
Athens Mama
9:53 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
@Frank Jones - I agree. My kids are in middle and elementary and have been educated for 11 years in our public school district. My kid tested in the top 7% of private school students, coming out of the local public school district. I'm not here to knock all public schools - not by any means. It's the same with public school teachers - some of the very best teachers I know have been teaching for years in the local public school district. My issues have stemmed from, in my opinion, an inadequate system of teacher evaluation and removal if necessary, and some from the impact other students have had on my child. In certain situations, my hands were tied unless I had the money for private school or the time for home schooling - at which time I had neither one. I would have given blood for a charter choice school.
No Name
9:56 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Frank - I know there are good teachers out there. My point was really about the mismanagement of funds. The kids are often pawns and an afterthought. Too many administrators. Etc.
Elizabeth Hooper
10:54 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Hi No Name,
I'm not giving up on public schools and have great respect for the teachers and administrators who do their best despite this culture of traditional school bashing which seems to be all the rage. It is out of control and goes against everything I thought America stood for - equal opportunity for all, public good, honesty, cooperation, respect for others, integrity, public policy for the good of the majority rather than a few. This is a "perfect storm" of parties who have banded together to support HR 1162 to dismantle public education to suit their own separate agendas. Sounds a bit creepy? It is! But very important to pay attention to. We still have freedom of speech as far as I know. Many, many Georgians are willing to speak out to prevent "the state" from adding taxation without representation to the state constitution. I hope you'll join us.
No Name
11:25 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
I have strong reservations about the charter system, probably for different reasons than many listed here. But regarding public schools, you may have a skewed view by living in North Fulton. The public schools in the inner cities are not working there, but I'm not convinced that charters can fix it since it involves the systemic problem of broken families.
11:32 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
First we do NOT have an option if the local BOE denies a petition for a charter then there is NO appeals process! The criminals in America get an appeal but our children do not. Wow, see you song Carr about the children. The courts have already ruled that only the local BOEs have the right to establish charter schools. So, if this amendment fails All of the charter schools that the State BOE put in place will be challenged sd illegal and they will close. So, no appeals process for our young and innocent. Oh, also how about having problems at local school, problem was taken up the food chain to superintendent. Parent was told, nothings changing and if u don't like it move. REALLY???
Jennifer Hall
8:15 pm on Saturday, October 6, 2012
Maly, where are you getting all of that from? That's what they are telling you? Please read the following article for some information on that. Since the Supreme Court ruled the commission illegal, 16 schools have applied to the state, and all 16 were approved. It shows that this amendment adds a layer of government that isn't needed. Nothing wrong with some of these charters. Some are great. Some are not. But the amendment does nothing but put power into the hands of a few. Not a good idea. http://onlineathens.com/opinion/2012-10-06/blackmon-charter-issue-too-important-inaccurate-discussion
Elizabeth Hooper
3:38 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
sounds like an emotional answer Beth. You did not answer my question but this is not a test after all. This a legal debate. "The State" wants more power. Is it wise to give it to them or not? In my experience "the state" is not better equiped to make decisions for me than my local school board. In addition, my three children have done well in our public schools. Since we're bragging about children - my eldest graduated number 5 from Northview HS - no easy feat. She then went to GaTech and majored in architecture. She graduated number 1 in her architecture class and has a great job in her field - also no easy feat. My second graduated from UGA in 3.5 years and has an excellent job in Boston - all her doing. My son is at Alpharetta HS and works his tail off as do all of his friends. Your generalizations about "all public schools in Georgia are failing" are rude and disrespectful in my opinion. Do I dectect a "southerners are all stupid red necks" bias? I certainly hope not!
Mike payne
5:23 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Well as long as you are happy with your schools the rest of us will just eat cake and shutup.
11:39 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Hey Elizabeth Hooper, I would love for my child to go to tor school. I think you would feel different if your child had to go to an APS school, or how about one of those schools where the accreditation is about to be snatched again. Lets switch schools and see where you stand.
Athens Mama
6:45 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
@Elizabeth - the state wants the power to supercede the short sightedness of some of the local BOEs and give some of the kids a fighting chance. In my district, a third will not graduate. One of my children is a super social child with a below average level of academic engagement in the school we were zoned for versus an above average level of academic engagement in the school I paid to move us into. I think each of our perspectives is very affected by the way our own districts serve our families.
@Rebecca- the discussion of Special Education is a sensitive subject and a multi-layered one. Given your position and communication skills, I would bet that your child's learning issues are not related to environment. However, some are, especially in some districts. You would have to observe to believe what the Special Ed services your child would receive in some schools. How about if your child just had specific issues with numbers or letters? Maybe your child has sensory issues and needs less noise or specific instruction in areas like writing. This is not the same as the child who moves about the classroom throwing desks, hitting across the face, or punching. Yet, in some situations, these children are grouped together, simply because they all fall under "Special Ed." So, an uninformed parent might accept the services being rendered as acceptable, not knowing that this might not reflect the realities that exist elsewhere.
Athens Mama
6:52 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
When I'm referring to kids with Special Needs being underserved, I'm talking about the instances where they don't have IEPs yet. Either the system hasn't moved them through the tunnel of paperwork yet or the team is waiting. If you have ever seen a GA PreK room with one child running through the circle, hitting, screaming, and throwing things at the teacher, with no other adult in the room, that is what's going on. Once there is another teacher or para, then there are more resources. In first grade classrooms, they just yanked all the paras, so if there are kids who have moved from out of county and their parents haven't registered them as having IEPs, then they will not get served until the paperwork gets delivered or redone. Time. Time passes. Time. Time passes some more. All that time, kids who have a variety of educational needs remain in the chaos. Some, like one of my children, do very well. By fifth grade, that child can do all of his/her work, help redirect kids with behavior issues, and help those who are still struggling to read. Others, like another of my children, don't do so well at all. They start off with "P"s. None of the teachers tell you that "P"s mean "F"s. They sugarcoat things - they're progressing, still mastering, etc. Until third or fourth grade and you realize that your child can't add. Your child, the one to whom you read, reared with guidance and love, spent time illuminating. And you are nothing but STUCK if you own property.
8:19 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
If you believe state charters will meet the needs of any special ed child long-term, you need to do some serious, in-depth research. As Rebecca, Paula, et.al. note, these charters will either not accept those childen OR will serve them so poorly that the parents will opt to return them to their local public school.
Need evidence? According to the GaDOE report card (data reported by school), for 2010-11, over 6 percent of Fulton Science Academy's students were categorized as Special Ed. http://archives.gadoe.org/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=36574&T=1&FY=2011
Careful review of the audit of FSA's expenses (again data from FSA records, supervised by FSA accountant),shows, however, suggests a MAJOR disconnect. Pages 31 and 32 reflect that FSA paid $1540 per month in Special Ed salaries of a total salary encumbrance of $195,655. For comparison, other monthly expenses were salaries for a principal $7500, two assistant principals $11,000, and security resource officer $2420 (contracted), as well as weekday overtime of $4508 and $7538 in legal service fees.
What level of special ed services do you think was rendered for a salary of $18K? (That is half a base teacher salary.) Paying 3 administrators $222K (plus benefits) gives you some idea of how charters can "focus their resources."
8:27 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
A copy of the audit may be accessed on a previous Patch article http://alpharetta.patch.com/articles/fulton-science-academy-ms-audit-reveals-many-problems#pdf-10316715
Thank you for calling out those who choose to deal in misinformation, Elizabeth. I took MARTA downtown yesterday and spent the entire trip discussing education with a fellow rider from East Cobb (with adult children), including the fallacies of the need to replicate services with a second state charter option. He seemed interested, so hopefully will continue to pass along the facts, not fallacies.
Athens Mama
8:42 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
@Me: You're right. Kids with Special Needs will have a chance to apply for admission to charter schools - but IEPS will be optional. The likelihood of many students with Special Ed needs being admitted to charters is small - but maybe not nil. For instance, I know a child gifted in 2 subjects but with a learning disability in another. If the child was gifted in Science and it was a Science focused charter - that might not disqualify that child. However UNLIMITED FEDERAL FUNDS guarantee that students with Special Ed needs get services in regular public schools. Lower performing gen ed students - some even low performing AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THEIR SCHOOL ENVIRONMENTS - don't get anything extra and are lucky to even get direct feedback on their schoolwork. Any research available that investigates Special Education needs that COULD BE CAUSED BY EDUCATION ENVIRONMENTS? No. Kid is developmentally delayed - happens to lots of kids, particularly boys. Kid can't count by tens beyond 100. Kid doesn't understand what "counting by 100s" means. Kid moves on without anyone rectifying this - kid has no IEP. Kid makes it to third grade. Class instruction moves at a rapid rate, standards including algebra, geometry, order of operations, and other "higher order thinking" skills required to be taught, even if kids are behind. Kid falls through cracks, never makes it into advanced math. Middle school gen ed math is a cesspool of behavior problems. Kid doesn't graduate.
Athens Mama
8:53 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
"Government worker" mentality dictates that a teacher with years of experience behind him/her gets a quality job teaching this third grader. Teacher shows up and teaches what is required every day, talked behind the scenes about the irresponsible families to which his/her students belong, with disdain even for the innocent students. Teacher never makes corrections to students' writing that they go over and process. Teacher never remediates students who are behind. Teacher scoffs at students who are slow or don't do well, even on poorly designed assessments. Students should just "study" harder. Teacher assigns stations for an hour per day, during which time teacher works with small groups. Teacher never checks to ensure that students have absorbed accurate information during this time. Teacher continues to show up year after year, until teacher gets tenure. Then teacher REALLY gets to treat his/her students how teacher feels about them. Teacher may even receive accolades for his/her work during this time, recognized by co-workers - teacher is always nice in front of them. Teacher may even scream in students' faces at the top of his/her lungs, in front of hundreds of people. No one stops him/her.
10:11 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
@Athens Mama Sad to say, someone has horribly misinformed you if you really believe "UNLIMITED FEDERAL FUNDS guarantee that students with Special Ed needs get services in regular public schools." The Feds have seemingly unlimited expectations of what schools will provide for special ed students and their families, but their contributions to meeting those expectations are actually quite limited. This is why charters won't take those students, which would mean that local systems would take a double-hit with the proposed charter amendment funding provisions, One hit would be from having the new state charters pull more than what the system would earn from the K12 budget, and the second would be that of course a higher percentage of students would be special needs.
In this Fulton report from 2010, only 25% of the average expense of $30,323 per special ed student was paid with federal funds; also, only 14% was covered by the state, leaving 61% ($18,624) to be paid with local property taxes.
It is sad that you and your child have had some miserable experiences. I assure you that we had some serious bumps in Fulton County as well. HOWEVER, each time I fought a battle, children who followed my child also benefited. That can help in the long term, I promise.
Athens Mama
10:16 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
....or maybe it's that public school districts receive those funds on a "per head" basis, but they aren't exactly spent that way?
I complained by mouth and in person, battled and lost, then moved and won.
10:16 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
@FrankJones Last year this time, we were hearing how wonderful Fulton Science was as well - to the point of allegations that our TPSs in North Fulton were embarrassed by FSA's successes. My, how things have changed... and the stories of dissatisfaction with FSA begin to pile up.
Of course the state didn't renew their charter either...does it look like for good cause now? A new charter commission to rubber stamp each and every charter appllcation would be better how?
Athens Mama
10:16 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
All the time people battling "for their children" in the public schools, time lost, lost, lost, lost, lost....
Frank Jones
11:00 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Not so! Friend of mine has a child that need extensive speech therapy. School was required to provide 2-3 days of therapy. Parent got 5 days/wk theraphy. Neighbor has a child with speech and attention issues that was interfering with his learning. School provided counseling and other services. Child is now at or above grade level. Another neighbor has a very smart child that wasn't being challenged and was bored. They contacted the school and worked out a solution. Child is now being challenged. I have a child with a medical condition but outwardly appears fine. School made reasonable accomodations to address issues, implemented 504 plan and IHP. All of these cases were in traditional public schools -- CCSD.
It is possible to work within the school system. Just make sure you do your research, have whatever information you need, document your conversations, meet them in person, be pleasant and positive, know what you want, and work with them. Most importantly, know your rights! If you still run into roadblocks, there are free & paid advocates that can help.
Athens Mama
11:13 pm on Wednesday, August 29, 2012
@Frank - you are completely right - IN SOME SCHOOLS. Your rights are pretty minimal if your child's abilities fall within the mainstream. Some schools and teachers work hard at customer service. Some schools and teachers bend over backwards to serve parents and students. Some treat you like garbage. I've experienced both. I post relentlessly on this topic because my kids are all packaged up and ready to go, but I cannot ever forget those who are left behind. I particularly bleed for those who do not know anything different because they have never experienced another place or another way.
Steve Youngblood
6:55 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Let's just focus on the wish to Mr. Rogers for the weekend. How crude is that? Chip is paying for his kids to go to school but pays again for a private school and that's bad? I know people who send their kids to private school for religious reasons, for learning difficulties and more. Most really sacrifice. They aren't living the posh Alpharetta life, sending their kids to the really great public schools while arguing that other shouldn't have what they have. It seems that Ms. Hooper thinks it's great that during the 2 years of the commission, the districts saw 60 schools, approved 4. The 56 went to the commission where 16 were approved and 14 opened. Doesn't seem to be a huge bureaucracy out of control. Seem a small group provided an appeals process just in case the fat cat superintendents didn't reject a school just to ensure their power base (students, which equal MONEY). They don't like competition. The year before the commission, they approved ZERO schools.
Is Ms. Hooper worried better schools in Atlanta may make it more desirable and thus competitive with North Fulton?
It's about kids NOW. Not ten years from now. NOW. We don't need this liberal mindset anymore keeping our dropout rate at 30%.
Mike payne
11:27 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I find it amazing the anti-choice crowd crows about local control and how the state is over stepping the "local school board". Well as a parent of two kids in Cherokee County who has decided to take advantage of the charter school if that is not local control what is? Janet Reed and Dr. P do not know what is best for my kids yet they want to dictate where my kids attend school. The only argument the anti-charter people make is about money. The argument the people who support the charter option make is about what is best for the kids. On election day we will see how it plays out, will the GA schools that have finished somewhere between 45th and 50th for as long as I can remember stay the same, or will we trust that competition will make things better.
Last note, if the anti-choice crowd wins and my kids are FORCED to go back to a govt. school they will survive as I am lucky enough to live in the Johnston district and it is not a bad school, but I am passionate about this fight because what about the kids that will be FORCED into a school that is unsatisfactory to the parents. Where is the local control in that option?
Frank Jones
12:37 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Mike...Its not all about the money! Money is just one of many arguments against for-profit charter schools. Other arguments include...charters typically have same or WORSE academic outcomes, charters don't accept ALL students, charters operate in secrecy (no open bidding, no public review), and the charter commission isn't accountable to the public.
If the charter amendment doesn't pass and if CCA were to close, no one is going to force you to send your children to CCSD schools. You have many other choices...as you've always had choices.
The pro-choice people need to take a step back and realize that we're all in this together. It's not just about my child or your child. It's about making the school system better for ALL CHILDREN and the best way to accomplish that is to work within the system and hold the CCSD board and administrators accountable.
Our schools are good and its been reported that our district had the highest average SAT scores in the state. Now I don't want to hear your argument that GA is 48th in the nation because you know that is a flawed argument since the state rankings are dependent and skewed based upon the percentage of students taking the SAT.
Steve Youngblood
5:46 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Yeah, we're not 48, we're 46. Oh, the inaccuracies! I like how you keep using the term "for profit charter schools" hanging on to your disdain for profit. Does that mean Alpharetta is a for profit high school because they have a John Deere Gator and Deere is a for profit tractor maker? They're buying products and services from for-profit firms. They "profiting". Their EVIL.
Uhhhhh, let me think,,no. What if the principal doesn't spend all the money she makes. Is she "profiting"? Yikes, a profiteer! Get her out of there.
Where I live, my kids only have one elementary school, one middle and one high school. Sure, there is/was a charter school nearby. One charter doesn't make for "choice". I want some of the schools around us to change fast or shut down. But, these legacy schools are all there, basically, permanently. I want choice in the product sold. Let them bid with excellent performance for my kids.
The scores and rankings don't say we're "pretty good". Anyway, I don't want pretty good. I want great.
Susan L.
5:52 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Frank Jones -- Thank you so much for always bringing this back to the solid facts!! It truly is about ALL CHILDREN!!
Frank Jones
7:07 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Steve...Your post makes no sense and you obviously don't understand the concept of profit. Maybe you should go back to school and learn the difference.
Steve Youngblood
7:16 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I would guess that you are so "anti-profit" that you wouldn't understand what I said. I guess you thought you "schooled" me. Pardon the pun. Sorry dude, being an entrepreneur, I can assure you, I get the profit thing. The term "for profit charter schools" was used. Or should I say, misused. The management companies that manage some charter schools (most are not managed by "for profit" companies), who may be "for profit" don't represent a problem due to their "profit" motive. Now, if they suck, that's another story. What is it? Sucking or profit? I'm against sucking. If they suck and earn a profit, then I really want them to hit the road. Can't say that about the legacy public schools. They suck and that's that. And that's why we have the amendment to the constitution on the ballot in November. To provide options to parents and kids in a failing school environment in Georgia.
Frank Jones
10:34 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Steve..You aren't the only entrepreneur out there and trust me, I truly know what profit is, what mis-management is, and what fiduciary responsibility is. The issue at hand is are the for-profit management companies truly operating in the best interest of the children (fiduciary responsibility), whether the company is operating using arms-length transactions (potential mis-management) and trying to generate excessive profit.
Profit, in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, but profit is a cost/benefit analysis between the results of traditional schools vs. the results of an alternative which in this case is charter schools. Based upon the fact that the majority of charter schools perform no better than traditional schools, one must question whether the profit motive improves schools and whether the profit made by the management companies is a reasonable expense.
Now you keep coming back to how bad traditional schools are and you say they "suck". I'll agree that some schools in Georgia have lousy test scores. But the real question is whether the school and the administration are bad or whether it's the student population and the community. In Cherokee County, our schools are good...They don't suck.
So you want charter schools to provide an option for kids in failing schools? Please note that the amendment doesn't require charters to take over or move into failing districts. They'll move into white, upper income areas. The easy to teach kids.
Kids First
9:25 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
The schools in Cherokee Co are great Frank yet something like 800 children (let's say 500 families) said to themselves, this is the school that better serves my kids. They're run by a non-profit governing board that may cancel the contract with Charter Schools USA anytime. Ask Imagine Schools....it's been done. You know what my family did? We visited the local charter school and made a decision to attend the traditional public school. Does that mean the families that chose the other option are wrong, misguided, should just volunteer a few more hours at the traditional school and 'presto' it's now the better option? I don't think so.
Mike payne
2:53 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Frank I bet my life you have never been to the Charter school in Cherokee County. I have my two kids attend there and I can tell you there is more diversity at the CCA then there was at his public school (especially on the staff). Your statement that CCA does not except all students, are you saying they discriminate? You have made dozens of posts on this subject and several times you have made implications that the CCA crowd is picking and choosing their students, what part of a lottery confuses you? You and the other professional posters on this site say the SAT scores are not a good measuring stick, how about graduation rates? Georgia was one of five states with the worst graduation rates. The others are Florida, Nevada, New Mexico and South Carolina. We are not all in this together as you would like to think, we have tried your way and you and your ilk have failed the children in GA. It is all about the money for you, your posting history is there for all to see and in 90% money is your main concern when you are not insinuating the people who support CCA are bigots. You also said I have many other choices, well that is nice of you to say. I choose the charter school is that alright or should I come out of pocket and go private school? Luckily I can afford to do that but what about people that can't, what choice's do they have?
Frank Jones
10:48 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Mike...Diversity of the staff isn't a bad thing. Diversity of students isn't a bad thing. But yes, CCA can actively and passively discriminate against certain students. For instance, if a physically or mentally impaired student applied but CCA deemed that they can't provide the level of service the student requires, CCA can turn that child away -- active discrimination. CCA doesn't provide transporation to the school and requires parents to deliver their children to the school. This requires additional cost to the parents and it requires additional time that the parent may not have to drop off and pick up the student. As such, the school may not be an option for some families -- passive discrimination. Further, CCA requires parents to activily participate and contribute time. Once again, some parents may not have the time to contribute. Again, CCA wouldn't be the right fit -- again, passive discrimination.
SAT scores and Drop-Out rates are guidelines that can be used, if used appropriately. Unfortunately, many people and politicians don't use them appropriately. In addition, many school systems and states have manipulated drop-out rates and thus, state to state comparisons are suspect.
Now lastly Mike, my posting history is out there for all to see, and at no point have I ever called or implied anyone was a bigot. Ill-informed YES, biased YES. Racist or bigot...NEVER.
Jennifer Hall
9:47 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Mike and Steve, would you please define "failing schools" or "schools that suck?" You say that Johnston's not a bad school. You are correct. It's a great school. Could you tell me which schools in CCSD you would classify as "bad" and how you came to that conclusion? On what data are you basing your conclusion that Georgia schools rank between 45th and 50th? Frank already let you know that argument is invalid, and that can be proven.
Mike payne
9:00 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Jennifer you read my post but it seems you did not comprehend it. This is a STATE issue so yeah Cherokee County kids will survive but as I stated in my post this is about keeping kids out of failing schools and as a Graduate of a Clayton County HS this is something I am familiar with. Does it matter what data I give you to show Georgia's educational failure? We used SAT scores that was "flawed" so then we used graduation rates and that argument is "invalid" because Frank said so. Forcing parents to send their kids to schools they are not happy with is evil. You are on the wrong side of history my friend, you and Frank are defending the indefensible.
11:58 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
have him prove it then. It is Provence about our high school drop out rate. It is also Provence that our sat scores ate 46 in the nation. Hummmm, but our schools are great. Ok
Jennifer Hall
8:12 pm on Saturday, October 6, 2012
Maly, I almost cannot comprehend your reply, as your grammar/spelling leave a lot to be desired. However, since you used the number 46, I'm going to assume you are referring to the SAT ranking. This has been explained numerous times in this post. 80% of Georgia students take the SAT just to see if they will qualify for HOPE. Some of them are unsure about whether they'll attend college. Illinois, the top-rated state, tests only 5% of their students, all of those are definitely college bound. If we were test a similar demographic, the rankings would be far different. Let's keep this on the issue. Do we need an appointed, non-elected state agency to approve charters when there are already two methods in place? No. We don't need more state government.
Steve Youngblood
10:03 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Typical liberal "define what is "is"". I don't know what CCSD is. i just know the stats for Georgia. My kids went to Alpharetta HIgh. Good school. Not great, but, good. For the average "posh" Alpharettan, living on a lake, that's great. But, what about GEORGIA? For those from "up north". OUR STATE? We are not competitive. Not just with other states. With the world. Korea. Japan, Germany. Jennifer, what other language to do you speak? Any? Do you wish our kids spoke more? Math, want more? Forget the interests you represent. Support the kids in all of Georgia that are Left Behind. We need the inner city kids and the posh suburban kids to have an opportunity to be great, for us and for themselves. For Georgia's future. They need the opportunities NOW. Not potentially in 10 to 20 years.
Steve Youngblood
10:45 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Frank, as a fellow "Frank", how depressing you are so caught up in what "is" is. The fact that a few charter schools are managed by "for profit" management companies is so "so what". You are trying shake shiny things around to get the attention off what are failed and bloated school systems that support >$400K school superintendents who have failing schools yet reject change.
You seem to only be against changing the "status quo". Maybe you're saying "hey, things aren't great, but, they're not becoming less great". Or, "others suck, but we suck less". Not good enough. Not good enough for Georgia's kids. Inside of your district or out.
Frank Jones
10:59 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Steve...this isn't a liberal/conservative thing as schools should be neutral. I know many Republicans and many Democrats who support traditional schools and are opposed to this charter amendment. Leave that stuff behind.
I find it ironic that you say that your child went to Alpharetta High and that it is a "good school" but "not great". While SAT scores have their failings when used in comparisons to other states, they're more useful within a district and within a state. Alpharetta High School's average SAT score was 1679 and 1660 in 2011 and 2012, respectively and were in the top 10 schools in the state for those years.
One must wonder what score qualifies as great or even very good in your book...2,000? 2,300?
Steve...again you speak of the inner city kids. But the amendment does nothing to ensure that charters move into the inner-city. You and others are using the poor and the black to get charters for your kids.
Steve Youngblood
11:15 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Really, you have to bring racism into this? Ughhh. My kids are set. I got 'em into college. Don't need charters for me. You mention the great scores at AHS. BAM. Your a Dizzie Lizzie follower. Guess you feel it's all about what happens within the small North Fulton area. NOPE. This is only a small part of Atlanta and an even smaller part of Georgia.
Again, all you focus on is "up here". We live in Georgia. I know, you live in North Fulton, not "Georgia". I live in Georgia.
And had the commission not saved Museum School, there would have been a success that would never have been. Now, they're part of Dekalb. The school and district are happy. .............. Your Welcome.
I'm set. My kids got the best GA could give. Not what I got in Florida. But, good. I want better. I want our kids to go beyond Florida. Beyond Mass. Beyond CA. Beyond Korea!
You guys want to play race games. Damn. Move back up north for that. GA is for all kids, no matter what race. No matter what economic level. Just like a democrat to play race/wealth envy cards.
Frank Jones
8:50 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Steve...You keep talking about saving the poor, black, inner-city kids from failing school districts. That's noble and APS and Dekalb have made the headlines. However, the charter school amendment isn't designed to ensure that the poor, black, inner-city kids get choices.
We're both for all of Georgia's children. We differ on the approach. I want to improve the education outcomes for all students via the traditional school systems that aren't broken. You want to create an additional, hodge-podge system that will offer varying alternatives to a small fraction of students.
Mike payne
11:32 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
There you go again Frank CCA "you and others using the poor and the black to get charter for your kids". Proving my point once again. You know so little yet type so much. My daughter has been classified as developmentally delayed yet she was accepted, I could name at least three more kids that I personally know (with issue's) but you bore me. I will finish this tomorrow when I am at work and have spell check available (Clayton County graduate) haha.
Athens Mama
4:08 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Both liberals and conservatives support the charter amendment. I'm a flaming liberal - and I support the charter amendment. There need to be MORE CHOICES NOW. I've heard all the arguments about how we already have access to local BOEs - blah, blah, blah - NO WE DON'T. I've heard about how the evil state commission is going to upsurp all the power from local communities - blah, blah, blah - LOCAL COMMUNITIES SUFFER WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE MORE CHOICES FOR EDUCATION. Now to read that the charter schools are going to steal from the poor and the blacks. That is the most disgustingly ridiculous argument I've ever heard in my life. I won't even respond to the reality of that one, except to say that my family has certainly seen LOW INCOME days and WE SUPPORT CHARTER SCHOOLS and THIS AMENDMENT. Why? Because even though we were poor, we built a strong foundation of intellectual support at home and have enjoyed great academic success, even with few resources with which to work. Certain resources had to be there in order for us to reach success, however - A QUALITY PUBLIC SCHOOL. I recognize this, and support choices so that those who do not have access to QUALITY PUBLIC EDUCATION SERVICES can be given a chance at that access. Those who oppose seem to simply support the status quo, even when it fails. In CCSD, 30% of students don't even get their h.s. diploma. That, my friends, is not good enough.
Frank Jones
8:55 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Athens Mama...re-read my post. No where did it say that charters were going to steal from the poor and the blacks. It did state that many pro-choice supporters are using the notion of poor, black, inner-city kids in failing schools (APS/Dekalb) as justification for the charter movement and yet, the charter amendment has no requirement for future charter schools to be in failing school districts.
Another way to put it...We need the charter school amendment to fix the failing schools in APS and Dekalb...But we're going to put charter schools in the suburbs.
beth pfohl
9:04 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank must be a teacher or he would not be in such a "tizzy". My youngest daughter attends Cherokee Charter Academy and it is working wonderfully for her. I agree that some of the public schools in Georgia are "good", but not great. Why should we be held hostage by our local school board who were elected by teachers? The reason the charter parents drive their kids to school is because the school was not approved by our local board and don't have funds for buses. I have seen teachers posting comments hoping the Charter students fail. Why are people happy with average schools? What is great about an ACT score of 22? Georgia Tech applicants generally need at least a 30 to be considered. The children of the United States (Georgia) are woefully unprepared for life. What is wrong with demanding more? Just asking........
Frank Jones
9:46 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Beth...So, so wrong. I'm not a teacher nor is my wife a teacher. We're business professionals who understand management, financials, and operations.
It amazes me that you and others believe that only teachers are against the charter school amendment and specifically CCA. It's true that many teachers are against them but so are many other adults. Further, it could be that many teachers are against charters because they have first hand knowledge of what it takes to educate children whereas many of the pro-charter folks are parents looking for utopia.
People aren't happy with average schools and the status quo. People expect and the school systems are perpetually trying to improve the curriculum and the teaching environment.
As to "average", let's face it, most students are by definition average and as a result, their test scores will by definition be average. I've not look up ACT scores nor GT's requirements, but I'll assume your numbers are right. If GT requires a 30 to consider a student and the state's average or school system average is 22, then that doesn't seem too far off. Georgia Tech is a premier university and accepts premier students. Not everyone, not every "average" student should be able to attend a premier university.
Mike payne
9:29 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank this is amazing you call it "passive discrimination" due to car pool. Wow do you think we like spending 30 to 45 minutes a day in that line with gas sky high? The reason we do not have buses is because funding, so you want to shut us down and not give us school choice, so we sacrifice our time and money and actually take on the responsibility of taking and picking up our kids to and from school. If a parent "does not have time to contribute" as you say they are a perfect candidate for the government schools you so love. Who does not have time for their kids education? If they do not have time then they certainly must have the money and parents who do not want to volunteer have choice's (I know that is a word you despise) to satisfy the school. Now answer my question that you ignored, what are these choice's you speak of if the Charter schools close?
Frank Jones
9:51 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Mike, have you ever heard of a two wage-earner family where one works in Alpharetta and the other in Marietta and they're required to be at work by 8:30? They'd be barred from driving their child to CCA. Have you ever heard of families with multiple children with sports, music and other after-school activies? Time isn't free and many parents have responsibilities from dawn to dusk that prevent them from volunteering at school.
Not everyone has a stay at home spouse and tons of free time. So yes, passive discrimination does exist.
Steely Dan
10:46 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
How would they be 'barred from driving their child to CCA'? They'd have to arrive earlier, drop their child off, and proceed to work. Like almost all anti-charter people, you are laughably uninformed on the topic.
Believe it or not Frank, many MANY people make do every day without needing the government assistance you so desperately advocate for in every single one of your posts. Not everyone needs the gov't to hold their hand, Frank. As is clear in districts like APS, Dekalb County, Clayton County, Bibb County, and elsewhere, local districts are often crony-filled disaster areas that do a terrible job of serving the needs of children and parents in their district. Approval of 1162 gives people like that a way out of failed ed. districts. Not sure why you hate those types of people so much to want them to be forced to stay in their failed schools.
If the local board had approved the CCA, they'd have busing and your point would be nullified. But because of the overt discrimination of the Board against Parents For Choice, this didn't happen. The CCSD board is clearly prejudiced against any parent who wants more than the type of education found in the traditional public school system. Discrimination against those parents certainly exists.
No More Bullies
12:23 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Steely Dan is wrong. The petition for the charter school never included any component of transportation from the local district. Read it yourself. Charter Schools USA promised to provide some transportation for approximately 25 percent of its enrollment (and they typically utilize a private bus service to do this), at a cost of roughly $250,000. This year's CCA budget, approved by the local and governing council, gives CSUSA over $100,000 MORE than the petition's 5-year budget called for in the second year, and still not at full enrollment of 1145 students. Why? Could these funds have not been used for the students? A school nurse? A couple of buses? The truth is, CSUSA will NEVER provide transportation for any of its students in Georgia because they intend to use a loophole in HB797 (the authorizing legislation for the amendment) to declare "statewide attendance zones" so their petitions go directly to the state commission, and bypass local review completely. What do they care how far a parent drives their child to school? Being a state commission school will pay better with all state dollars, as the local share of school funding is dwindling away with the shrinking tax digests anyway.
Juan Dela Cruz
2:50 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank, if you and your "partner" both work and one has to be at work by 8:30 and the other some other place at some other time, well, work it out. My wife and I had an epic situation with 2 kids, one going to Buckhead and traveling, the other all over the southeast. No local family to help. We covered all of it. And sports and church and volunteering. I don't think we were "discriminated" against. Well, OK. I did discriminate again jobs that wouldn't let me do those personal things I needed to do.
Passive discrimination. HAH. Is that what you call it when you're not willing to make it all work? It's someone else's fault for "passively discriminating" against you? Charter's require parental involvement. But, raising a good kid does too. Get crackin'
beth pfohl
9:54 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank, my son attends Georgia Tech. He went to an expensive private school, thus my frustration.
Jennifer Hall
8:06 pm on Saturday, October 6, 2012
There are many students at GT who attended Georgia public schools. An expensive private education isn't necessary if a child wants to attend GT.
Mike payne
12:03 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank my wife and I both work (both of us have a 45hr work week). I help coach a baseball team that my son is on and he also plays LAX my daughter plays soccer. You could fill a library with what YOU DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE CHARTER SCHOOL OR THE BRAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BROKEN FREE FROM THE CHAINS OF OUR GOVERNMENT SCHOOL SYSTEM BECAUSE WE WANT BETTER FOR OUR KIDS AND ARE WILLING TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES. Your group depends on the good graces of UNCLE SCAM to do the right thing, how did that work out for the Native Americans? This government you defend is the same one that less than a hundred years ago would not allow women to vote. You speak of diversity and how it is a good thing, what you fail to understand is you think we are diverse because like most democrats you judge us by how we look, we are more alike than diverse because we all willing do what it takes if we think it is better for our kids. Only someone full of hate or totally devoid of common sense would call it "passive discrimination" because we take our kids to school (and that is only because we do not have the funding thanks to your crew yet you blame us for that).
Frank Jones
3:57 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Mike...you're being a bit over-dramatic aren't you -- "broken free from the chains of our government"? And it's ironic that you are both anti-government and pro-government at the same time...You want government funding for your charter school at the same time that you claim government is evil having discriminated against Native Americans and Women.
Let's get back to the facts:
1. Charters typically perform no better than traditional schools.
2. Charters are not accountable to the people.
3. Charters make money by NOT spending the money on the kids.
4. Charters are paying lobbyists and marketing firms to promote the amendment.
5. Charters can deny a student for physical and/or mental disabilities.
6. Charters can expel a student and send him/her back to traditional schools.
7. Public money should be overseen by duly elected public officials accountable to the public.
8. The charter amendement and a separate charter commission isn't required for there to be charter schools in Georgia.
12:13 am on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Frank, we have before and after school care. Drop off early pick up late. I am a single mother of 2 and I have to be in Marietta for work. I live 25 min from the school but I will move heaven and earth to get mychild to CCA so she can have a chance. She has special needs and attends CCA. And is doing great! You are so illinformed.
Rebecca McCarthy
12:29 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
you have no experience with Special Ed, your comment tells me. Do you know what kinds of students are in this category? children with fine motor delays (like my daughter); children who have speak delays; who have gross motor delays, ie, they can't throw or catch a ball or hop on one leg; children who have trouble controlling their impulses, who say and sometimes do the wrong or inappropriate things (lying on the floor, refusing to cooperate). If you think all special ed students are developmentally delayed or mentally impaired in some fashion, you are wrong. They don't need to be segregated from the general curriculum or from students who don't have these challenges. Because, with early intervention and one-on-one help, they will work out of special ed and will be in the classroom with their peer groups. These kinds of classes are collaborative classes, in which there is a special ed teacher and a lead, classroom teacher. Everyone wins in this arrangement. My other daughter, who isn't a special ed student, is very tolerant of everyone, and doesn't make fun of anyone who's abilities are less than average. A school just for special ed students, unless, perhaps, they are autistic, needing round-the-clock assistance, or have hearing or vision problems, strikes me as an ill-conceived idea.
2:10 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Rebecca, I agree with most of your comment, but take exception to some of the conditions you listed that might benefit from a "special" school. One of my children has a condition you listed. I do NOT want that child in a special school. That child must function in a world of "normal" people. That child needs to be mainstreamed, with appropriate accommodations, to function in our "normal" world. Also, our school system is doing a remarkable job helping with our special need.
Mike payne
3:20 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
No more bullies, that name cracks me up, from now on I would like to be known as world peace. There is no bigger bully in the world than government but I do not expect you to get where I am coming from. These loopholes you speak of and how CCA will never this and cheat that again you and Frank like to get on here and bash with your bad information, well here is a fact-Last year in Cherokee County not only did Charter Schools USA not take a fee, they donated over a million dollars to ensure Cherokee Charter Academy was financially whole at the end of the year. This was due to the uncertainty of particular funding streams for state chartered special schools; however, the management company (CSUSA) was aware that the school was going to be in a deficit situation and made the decision they would rather take the financial hit themselves than impact what was happening in the classroom.
And Frank we are all still waiting on you to answer my question, your silence is deafening.
No More Bullies
4:38 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Mike: "donated"? Is that in writing from Charter Schools USA? An increase of $100,000 over the budgeted fee is repayment of some kind. How would you characterize it? A bonus? A sweep? The management contract (all this was in the petition that the school district posted online for the public to see) that CSUSA uses with all its Florida schools includes the following Article V, Item J: "Start-up Financing/Operating Losses. CSUSA may, in its sole discretion, provide funds for operating losses for the Charter School, including funds for the development of a curriculum, technology system and school operations plan; recruiting, selecting and pre-service training of staff members; and cleaning, fixing and equipping of the Charter School building as required by this Agreement. CSUSA advances shall be budgeted and shall be in amounts acceptable to CSUSA. CSUSA shall be reimbursed from the Revenues as and when funds are available." This may be in your school's contract, maybe not. You should ask for a copy and see for yourself. You should also read HB797 section regarding the statewide attendance zone.
Frank Jones
4:04 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Mike...I've heard several times that CSUSA donated a million to CCA. Unfortunately, the financial statements of CCA aren't readily available and it isn't possible to confirm that CSUSA donated a million or loaned a million to CCA. Further, let's assume that CSUSA donated a million, they didn't do it with charitable intent! The would have done it in order to secure further rent and management fees thus negating the charitable intent and the donation.
Mike payne
5:40 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank, for the third time, you said "You have many other choices...as you've always had choices." Please name those choices. It is painfully obvious you have it good in Alpharetta and you are happy with that school system (like your teammate Elizabeth Hooper) and if 1 dime is diverted from your precious government school you just will not stand for it. So you post on this forum defending a system that some parents do not believe in and try and make us villains for doing what we think is best for our kids. Let us review some of your better statements.
#1. ...the schools are doing the best they can with the money they're provided. Keep in mind that Chip Rogers and friends have been cutting school funding! Even now, while they're underfunding public schools, they are overfunding charter schools. Show them your anger and demand public schools be fully funded.
#2. The best thing for the children is to have parents actively involved in their overall education...
#3. Time isn't free and many parents have responsibilities from dawn to dusk that prevent them from volunteering at school.
#4. CCA requires parents to activily participate and contribute time. Once again, some parents may not have the time to contribute. Again, CCA wouldn't be the right fit -- again, passive discrimination.
Mike payne
5:40 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
#5 Now lastly Mike, my posting history is out there for all to see, and at no point have I ever called or implied anyone was a bigot.
#6 You and others are using the poor and the black to get charters for your kids.
#7 the amendment doesn't require charters to take over or move into failing districts. They'll move into white, upper income areas. The easy to teach kids
#9 CCA can actively and passively discriminate against certain students
#10 have you ever heard of a two wage-earner family where one works in Alpharetta and the other in Marietta and they're required to be at work by 8:30? They'd be barred from driving their child to CCA
And my favorite of all
#11 government is and has been very successful in many endeavors when the politicians allow knowledgeable government professionals do their jobs...public university systems are a prime example and many local public school systems do amazing jobs.
Mike payne
5:57 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Frank are you saying it is not a fact your Government discriminated against Native Americans, Women, Blacks and many more? When are you going to answer my question? Do I need to repeat it? School choice is the civil rights fight of the 21st century so no I do not feel I am being "over dramatic". I am about ready to channel my inner John Brown. I survived being chained to a horrible Clayton County school system so I speak from experience you speak from Alpharetta, now step aside good sir, freedom of school choice is coming through.
Rae Harkness
11:25 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Amen...I hail from a local school with the worst graduation rate in the county. Engaged parents demand a safe, effective learning environment.
Frank Jones
11:51 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Mike...We are the Government. Our forefathers, parents, and even us as citizens have discriminated against segments of the population. It's a fact, but as a society, we're evolving. That said, why in the heck are you bringing up Native Americans, Women and Blacks? It makes no since unless you're claiming Pro-Charter people are being discriminated against like Native Americans, Women and Blacks.
Mike, as I've said before...you've always had choice but you're not happy will them: home-school, private school, & church school.
Elizabeth Hooper
5:41 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I certainly don't want to intervene in the discussion you and Frank are having but I'm curious to know if you heard any of Sen. Emanuel Jones press conference last Tuesday at the capitol? He was speaking for the Black Legislative Caucus. He said point blank that this amendment is not about education it's about making public education private. He and all of his fellow legislators and the spokesperson for Rev. Lowry who was unable to attend stated that this WAS the civil rights issue of the day and that they were NOT going back to the 60's and stand by while the private sector resegregates public schools via charters that will discriminate against blacks who will be unable to get to them and will divert money and resources from existing public schools. This entire coaltion was voting NO - they were furious. Did you not hear him speak? I strongly suggest you contact Sen Emanuel Jones. I do not think you are speaking for his community
Hal Schneider
6:02 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
Well, Elizabeth, almost everything that Sen. Jones said is misinformation. Charter schools ARE NOT private schools. They are open to EVERY child within the area they serve, and they use a lottery system when there are more applicants than seats, so the idea that they discriminate is just an out-and-out LIE. As usual, people are trying to make a racial issue out of this in order to inflame passions, and for NO other reason! Apparently, Jones thinks a 67% graduation rate in the state is an indicator that the current system is doing a great job! Let's just keep doing the same things! It'll all work out all by itself, right?
Juan Dela Cruz
5:50 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
What in the heck makes you thing Jones and the "Black Legislative Caucus" speak for people who happen to have African heritage? Is it skin color? Wow, that sounds a bit racist. Of course, so does the comment by Jones. You see, this is all about perceived control.
Going back to the 60's? That's just shock talk. Those guys are worried that parents and concerned Georgia citizens will make kids smarter and more independent, and capable. They won't need race pimps like Jones and the BLC anymore.
It's time to view kids in Georgia as kids. No race, no color, no income level. Just kids we need to educate and support so they can flourish in our great and free state and country.
12:23 am on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Elizabeth, did u hear the black legislator tell him to get out from his child's education. I believe he called him a wanna be civil rights black man. So, he is not speaking for all of the States African Americans.
Jennifer Hall
8:56 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Steve, It's funny that you determine my political viewpoint from my stance on one issue. My reason for opposing this amendment is rooted in conservativism. "Less government, local control." Second, I believe it is appalling that you would choose to use the word "liberal" as an insult. Your intent was obvious from your context. I know several people who are truly liberal. They are intelligent, thoughtful people. I may not agree with them politically, but they have compelling reasons for their viewpoint and it makes for interesting discussion. As Athens Mama pointed out, there are liberals and conservatives on both sides of this issue. Attempting to insult "the other side" is not going to lead to a though-provoking discussion.
Speaking of discussion, that was my intent in asking you to tell me your criteria for a failing school. I truly wanted to discuss the issue based on what your viewpoint was. After reading the wild tangents these comments have taken, it's obvious that a thoughtful discussion won't happen.
I also think it is funny that you keep badgering Frank Jones to answer your question when you won't answer mine.
Athens Mama/Hal, a graduation rate of 67% statewide and 75% for Cherokee does NOT translate into a dropout rate of 25%. The grad rate means that's the percentage of students who graduate in 4 years/3 summers. Others take longer. I'm trying to find out if there is data to follow the remaining students to give a more accurate picture.
Hal Schneider
12:38 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Jennifer, are you REALLY defending a 67% graduation rate in the state of Georgia. I don't care how it's calculated when you compare it to other states because it's calculated the same way everywhere. It's abysmal and an indicator of how seriously the Georgia "county" public school system is failing our kids! The SAME metric, measured the SAME way in Michigan is 90%. Please don't try to make things look better than they are by throwing out a bunch of excuses and "reasonable" explanations. There's only one explanation. The current system has NO competition. Competition breeds EXCELLENCE! That's what I want for our kids!
Jennifer Hall
9:00 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Read the following for an explanation of the graduation rate Pay close attention to the information that is below the chart. Please keep in mind that some students require more time to complete graduation requirements.
There are many programs in our high schools to help retain students and get them the help they need to stay in school and graduate. Mike/Steve -- one of you mentioned that you are in business. Have you approached your local high school to see if there's a program that's a fit for what you do? Maybe they could use you as a mentor, or to take an intern? I'm not a high school teacher, so I don't know details on what programs they have or what their needs are. But I'm sure they'd be only too happy to get you involved.
Jennifer Hall
9:02 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Apologies -- I forgot to include the link. Here it is. http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/External-Affairs-and-Policy/communications/Pages/PressReleaseDetails.aspx?PressView=default&pid=33
Jennifer Hall
9:01 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Beth, in addition to Frank's thoughtful response about GT, keep in mind that there are MANY public school students who gain admission to GT.
Jennifer Hall
9:06 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
I'm going to leave with a quote from Dick Yarbrough that perfectly sums up my reason for not supporting this amendment: "Somehow, people think I oppose charter schools. I do not. What I do oppose is giving our friends in the Legislature the opportunity to get their hands on the process, aided and abetted by for-profit charter school management companies (and their campaign contributions.) This isn't about the kids; it is about money -- and lots of it. The Metro Atlanta TSPLOST failed in part because polls indicated a high distrust of our politicians by the voters. Why, all of a sudden, should we trust them with our children's future?"
Steve Youngblood
10:05 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Jennifer, if you're quoting Dick Yarbrough, you are not a conservative. Don't try to jingle the shiny things of "what do you define a failing school" bit. You know the stats. You're just on the side of the big, bloated bureaucracy. You don't care about the kids on the other side of the map who don't don't have what's needed to make it.
You don't care about local control. Local control means KIDS. Not school districts with >$400K per year superintendents who lay off teachers, underfund schools and point to the few schools that are doing well as proof the local system is working fine (and get the backing of folks like yourself.)
Here are the charter stats. During the commission being in operation, 60 schools requested a charter. 4 were accepted by the districts. 56 applied to the commission. 16 were granted charters. 14 opened. The year before the commission, ZERO were approved by the districts.
10:20 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Steve, And in how many schools with "the kids on the other side of the map who don't don't have what's needed to make it" have YOU worked? I have friends and family who have worked in those schools for decades and this charter bill has NOTHING in it to address the needs of those students.
Local control is NOT a new bureaucracy at the state level. In Fulton, now a charter system, the process is underway to establish school governance councils at Cohort 1 schools for this year. The principal doesn't vote on those councils; THAT is local control, sir.
(BTW, Your "charter stats" are way off; Fulton approved way more than 4 charter applications alone. Do some more research, provide your sources, then come back with reliable information.)
10:29 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Read the editorial page of today's AJC to get an idea of the impact of some charter schools in rural Georgia. For one school, which serves a five-county area, the population of the school is 75% white while the public schools serve 98-99% black children. Is this not de facto government-funded re-segregation? The numbers of students on free/reduced lunch in that public charter is also significantly lower than the average, so it is a socio-economic as well as race segregation...
The charter bill would NOT serve the under-served without requirements that the schools reflect the demographics of the community from which it draws. And it does NOT make that a requirement.
Kids First
10:38 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Take a look at the census for the families in that 5 county area. It much more closely represents the population at that school than the traditional public schools. So you don't want to see the whole population educated in public schools?
11:56 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Okay, I did look at the census. (Because I spent 25 years in South Georgia, I suspected you were off-base, and it was so.) The charter school does not match the demographics of the community. in fact, it supports the recent research which shows that charter schools often pull from private schools rather than offering access to the under-served in traditional public schools. Patuala Charter's student population is 75% white. From the 2010 census: Calhoun, Clay, and Randolph Counties are 37-38% white: Early, 49%, and Baker, 51%. That means that this charter school has 150 - 200% as many white children enrolled as the population suggests. Since some of the public schools are 98-99% black, one can only assume that those white children were privately or home-schooled in the past. My guess is that a majority of the other 25% also come from homes where parents have a relatively higher socio-economic status. So where does that leave the kids from the "other side of the tracks?" Worse off than before...
12:29 am on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
This amendment doesn't address anyone. It also doesn't say dothsidr black people this excludes you. Ivy prep an all girls school of mostly minoriety student's, kicked the snotty out of their peers in testing!
Steve Youngblood
10:37 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Even better. I grew up on the other side of the tracks! Even better again, I DO go to these schools TODAY. I don't just "hear from friends". Get out there and see them yourself.
This charter bill has EVERYTHING to do with those kids. You know it. You just stand for the big interests and the bureaucracy. It will ensure that parents and a community who desire to start a school and perform the necessary due diligence have the opportunity now without the local system feeling threatened and turning down the school to keep out the parents and kids.
You also know very well, this commission is the same one as before. No new state bureaucracy. Just the state ensuring the people and kids of Georgia don't continue to get trampled upon by the power hungry districts. But, you know that. You're on the side of the vested interests. Not the parents and kids who desire education choice in their community.
My stats are exactly on. I did the research. Got the info "from the horses mouth". My info is spot on. Yours is not. But, you know that.
And you know well "Charter Systems" are BS. That's what a bloated district does to thwart competition. They lob on the "charter" bit on to the back of their logo and somehow that means they're new and hip. I don't think so. The problem is still the same. Parents and leaders can no more easily start a new school under that system as the current. But, you know that.
11:34 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
@ Steve: I know that you seem to think that repeating things over and over makes it true. It doesn't.
I HAVE seen, and been in, those schools, since my hometown is in a very rural area and I hear DAILY the woes of those districts. People in those areas won't call their own school boards to task, allowing them to create positions like "director of football operations" when teachers are furloughed 10 days and have to sub for each other during their planning periods. There is such worship of the football gods that there is NO WAY they will create an academically rigorous, sustainable charter school.
i know that your stats are absolutely invalid, so I have to question everything else you say. Fulton currently has eight (8) start-up charter campuses in our district, plus they had previously approved FSAMS and a number of conversion charters, so that is over twice the number of charters you say all districts in the state have approved. What source is "the horses mouth?" ('Cause they have a BAD case of halitosis!)
You say you want change, but you discredit a charter system as "BS." Have you looked at a charter system application, attended a meeting explaining options for governance boards, considered that you might change a school rather than starting from scratch? I thought not.... Here is info on Fulton's charter system: http://portal.fultonschools.org/chartersystem/Pages/Default.aspx
Monty Brewster
11:35 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
The charter bill have EVERYTHING about taking tax dollars away from those kids. As I mentioned on another thread... until charter schools actually offer innovative educational techniques and are run by not-for-profit EMO's I will not be convinced otherwise.
If it was truly about the kids, the charters would invest in the best teachers instead of relying on teachers with little or no experience, and some that are not even certified to educate our children.
1:28 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Bill, Guess how many full-time meteorology teachers there are in GA K-12 schools? (None would be the answer.) So could you also teach geology, astronomy, oceanography, energy, the scientific method, and human impact on the Earth to 6th graders as well as a fully-certified science teacher? With differentiation? (And maybe also a couple of classes of life science? Or chemistry and physics to 8th graders next year?)
Thought not; now offer to guest lecture on your meteorology experiences to a 6th grade class or two. Contribute rather than just complain; gain some experience!
Monty Brewster
4:28 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Bill, there is such a thing as pedagogy. I would love to see you teach a class of high school students. Just because you have a knowledge base doesn't mean you have any idea of how to teach it.
Monty Brewster
4:30 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Bill, would you also be willing to teach full time for $30K/year?
Monty Brewster
11:52 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Bill, I would argue that if this legislation passes the victims would be more like this: 1. children; 1. taxpayers/parents; 1. teachers. There is a separate agenda underneath the puppeteering that "empowerment" holds. Parents are being duped into fighting for corporations that care absolutely about nothing other than profiting off of our children.
Teachers aren't in it for the money. I thought that was obvious. But since you bring up the point... how are those private school teachers fairing? Are they all making 6 figures?
12:34 am on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
What? Again bad information! All teachers in Ga charter included have to be certified teachers. That means degrees! CCA has teachers that have 15 to 20 years experience. We also have teachers with masters degrees, dual certifications and multiple education d. Youneef to do your reaseatch before spouting such ignorance.
Monty Brewster
4:41 pm on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Maly, I was going to give you a list of teachers at your school of choice that are not certified, but no one is listed on your website. That's odd that the faculty is not listed on a school's website. High turnover? But yes, Maly, charter schools can employ non-certified teachers. Here's my ignorant research -
beth pfohl
12:04 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Monty, you have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you should do some research before making a comment. CCA has a Cambridge Advanced Program that is not found anywhere else in Georgia.
Monty Brewster
4:46 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
How many students are enrolled in the CAPS program at CCA? I do apologize for not having researched this, but it appears that this is new to CCA this year and it was not offered last year.
Jennifer Hall
1:07 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Beth, the Cambridge program is not recognized by UGA or GT. Our public schools use programs that are accepted by major universities. Bill...seriously? I am supposed to trust you to teach science to my child based on your assertion that you are qualified? You wouldn't be willing to go through the certification process?
12:38 am on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Hum Cambridge University isn't a big university? How do u know the other colleges wont except? Like I said reasearch!
Monty Brewster
5:08 pm on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Maly, if CAPS is such a ground breaking curriculum, how come no other schools, other than those owned by CSUSA, use it?
Jennifer Hall
1:08 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Steve, since you've chosen to make assumptions about me based on my stand on one issue, I'll give you an assumption based on information you've shared publicly. You're a businessman with a child in a North Fulton public school who has attended charter school conferences for some years now. Based on that, I'm going to assume that you stand to make some money off of this should it pass.
Juan Dela Cruz
1:26 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
There goes the lib. Always somehow linking everything to "profit". Uhhhh,,,no. Jennifer, your left wing views are way off.
Many of us here know who each other are. But, we would never call out those things. Ahh, the left winger would though.
Just so you know. The product I pitch in the market has never been and will never be purchased by a school. Or by a school system. Or by a government, of any size. I have no conflict of interest. If this bill passes, I gain nothing. Except that my state will have a vehicle for more easily approving charter schools, more than likely outside of my school district. If it fails, I lose nothing. Except that Georgia will lose a vehicle for more easily approving charter schools, more than likely outside of my school district.
I have attended 2 charter school conferences. Won't be this year (if you looking). Did you know there will be district teachers there? Oooo, you better tell on them!
The stats for Georgia schools are there. They can be much better. My kids schools are OK (although I would argue can always better.) But, this isn't an argument based on the fact that we have good schools. It's an argument based on the fact that many of our schools aren't great. And the people closest to kids are the parents. And they deserve a right to petition to open and school without a bureaucracy blocking it for political reasons.
That's why we have the amendment on the table.
Athens Mama
8:18 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Juan - as a liberal - I can say that the words "for profit" coupled with Education do not bother me in the SLIGHTEST. Why? Because when I worked in property management, I was out to make my employer a profit - absolutely. The more money my employer made, the more secure my job. So........THE CUSTOMER WAS THE FIRST PRIORITY! ................and that,folks, is how we made those big profits......
Jennifer Hall
1:38 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Juan, I was addressing Steve, not you. Charter schools already have plenty of avenues to gain approval, both locally and through the state. I am actually for charters that are actual charters. In the 90's, charter schools began as a way of finding true innovation in education. That I am completely in favor of. What I'm against is state control with a non-elected commission to oversee this. Now, if you can address issues without name-calling and assumptions, I'll be happy to chat with you. As I've stated before, my opposition to this amendment is based on the conservative view of less government, local control. Charter proponents already have what they need to get charters approved.
Athens Mama
8:23 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Jennifer "Charter schools already have plenty of avenues to gain approval, both locally and through the state." ---Really?
How about in Athens, GA? You might see someone post - But wait! We have a flourishing charter school here in Athens. Does everyone in the district have access to that charter school? Does it offer academic and school culture incentives that would attract positive students and families?
The whole argument of people bashing "You want to make public school private." I am so baffled by this I can barely type the words.......
What is the problem with wanting to RAISE THE STANDARD OF PUBLIC EDUCATION TO PRIVATE? And I agree with Mike, WHERE THERE'S A WILL THERE'S A WAY - EVEN FOR THOSE WITHOUT A STAY-AT-HOME PARENT. I have managed to do many acrobatic things to ensure the well being of my children, and I'm a single parent who has always had to work.
Steve Youngblood
2:14 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Juan is me. I have two accounts. One under my nick name, the other under my name. One on one machine, the other on the other.
The commissioners will be appointed by elected officials. Just as the Board of Regents and all other agencies that do work for the state. The State Board of Education is also appointed by elected officials. This is no different than it it is today. The Forrester Commission. Professional Standards Commission (for teachers). Here they all are: http://sos.georgia.gov/elections/boards_gov.htm. All appointed by elected officials. All spending Georgia money. Including the state funds for charter schools.
Charters do not have what they need to be approved. The local districts WILL NOT approve them. History proves that.
Monty Brewster
4:58 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Were there no new charters approved by the state since the Supreme Court's ruling? I'm fairly certain it has occurred, and additional funding has been secured for this year to support them.
8:13 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Fulton County approved a number of both conversion AND start-up charters, and has eight start-up charter campuses right now. History proves that SOME local districts WILL approve charters who meet the appropriate criteria. If your district hasn't, maybe you need to find better charter applicants AND school board members open to innovation. Why should we, in a district who has approved charters, have to make up for the deficiencies in your district?
No More Bullies
5:40 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
I believe there are four charter schools on the State DOE agenda for October approval and several renewals, so it is ongoing. The State DOE has to oversee the schools approved by the State and supply the support services (special Ed, curriculum, testing, data reports, etc.), so there WILL be increased bureaucracy with an increase in approvals, they simply aren't staffed to handle it even with 16. The renewal process looks pretty sketchy... a lot of the data and information relies on self-reporting, and the State is not staffed to do more than a cursory glance at these. for example, on staff satisfaction, the CCA board did not agree with the staff's assessment of the leadership at the school so they rejected the survey and ordered a new survey be done (which less than half the staff completed the second time). What is the message to the staff in that situation? Don't complain or tell us there are problems, we won't believe you. And you still get to report to the state that staff are happy! The state person reviewing the renewal won't know the survey was a do-over unless they read the Cherokee Tribune or Ledger News.
8:16 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Amen, NMB. The state admits that they give charters MULTIPLE chances to improve, rather than strict oversight of their results and evaluation of their efficacy. Creating a state charter is somehow seen as a panacea; I expect it has more potential to be a pandemic, sadly..
Jennifer Hall
6:54 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Bill, read my post again. It is simply saying that the inverse of the graduation rate is not a drop out rate. A previous poster said we had an approximately 30% dropout rate. My post was to clarify that.
Will you please tell me how this "competition," as you see it, is going to help me as a teacher?
Monty Brewster
11:55 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Bill, it is people like you that have absolutely no idea how education inside the school actually works, making all the policies that has put us in this position in the first place.
However, if you really think your ideas would work, maybe you should open your own charter. If Amendment 1 passes, you'll probably just need to write what you put above on a napkin to get it approved and fully funded.
beth pfohl
8:26 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
The students in the Cambridge program also complete the entire year of the the common core standards by December and then move on to more advanced topics within the Cambridge program. I am aware of our local colleges' policies as my oldest son is now a freshman at GT. I don't see anything wrong with challenging these students. I have found this to be more challenging than the AIM and Honors classes my three other children were in.
Jennifer Hall
5:58 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Bill, it is for the children. But, as their teacher, doesn't this entire thing have to benefit the teacher for it to impact the children? Research shows that the teacher is the most important SCHOOL BASED factor in a child's education (but not the overall most important factor.) Higher wages? Every charter teacher I know (and I know several) makes far less in the charter than they do in the public school. And how will the parents "write a check????" Your reasoning there doesn't make sense. Also, it sounds like a magic wand is going to be waved and voila -- paperwork is gone! That's magical thinking. Accountability is going to be part of any school. Can I ask when was the last time you were in a classroom?
Frank Jones
5:24 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Jennifer...Hope you don't mind if I jump in and make some comments to Bill...
Bill...Your anti-government, ant-tax positions have blinded you. You write that if the government wasn't "stealing all the wealth and putting it into the government schools" there would be wealth with which to pay teachers well. Rubbish!
If the government didn't "steal" money from the people for education, people would have more wealth, but that wealth wouldn't be spread such that all children could receive an education. It would reside in the hands of: those without children, those with grown children, and businesses.
Education tax dollars come from parents of school age children AND from individuals and businesses without school age children. If there weren't taxes, the parents of school age children would have to foot the bill, 100% of the bill, to educate their children. And if they didn't have $7,000 per child, the child wouldn't receive an education.
As to the paperwork from the "Educracy" and your free-market mentality of parents measuring success independently, your logic is flawed again. Without the paperwork and standards for the paperwork, the free-market schools would be able to write their own performance reports, manipulate their reports any way they deemed fit, and withhold un-flattering data. The parents would have only their child's data with which to make their decisions, but no reliable data upon which to compare it.
Frank Jones
2:12 pm on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Bill...Your comments indicate that you are an Anarchist that believes all government is Bad and all taxes is Theft/Stealing while everyone else is a Socialist/Marxist.
You asserted that public education only started 50 years ago and that until that time, "parents educated their children". In fact public education has existed in the US since the 1700s and every state has required children attend elementary school since 1918. Per the ARC.ORG website, Pennsylvania required free public education for only the poor children as far back at 1790...poor, you know, the people who couldn't afford to pay for educating the own children.
Why is it your responsibilityto pay for some other parent's child to get an education? It's because, unless you attended private schools your entire life and your children attended private schools, you benefited from other people paying for your education and now it's payback time. Further, you benefit from public education every day of your life when you see the doctor, lawyer, accountant, store manager, financial advisor, carpenter, nurse, etc that received public education.
Lastly, you're just wrong -- plain and simple...There is a hugh a difference between karate lessons and public education. For starters, karate lessons are optional and society doesn't tax to pay for them. Under your Anarchist model, only the rich/elite would be educated and America would be Lords and Peasants.
Frank Jones
4:21 pm on Wednesday, October 3, 2012
Bill...The very nature of a democratic gov't is to provide public services via taxation. All taxation by any democratic gov't is a form of socialism! All taxation is a redistribution of money!
Your exteme views of gov't and taxes run contrary to your argument that gov't should make sure you can "get an education, buy medicine, and live (your) life in freedom" but without stealing your money to give to others. Your ability to get an education was funded by taxing your parent's generation and building national infrastructure. Your ability to buy medicine was made possible by gov't funding of research. Your ability to live your life in freedom was made possible by gov't's national defense and state's locking up felons. You didn't pay for all of this, but you're reaping the benefit.
I won't even waste my time on your insane comment that Government Schools = Marxism.
Your last comment that the poor could achieve more before government schools than after, is crazy. Prior to government schools, the upper classes received an education and a cycle of poverty and child labor prevailed for the masses. However, there were some exceptions who succeeded based upon natural talents. After government schools, all children had an opportunity to succeed - some seize the opportunity, some don't.
The ironic thing is that, as a pro-charter person, you're still advocating "stealing" money from the child-less to give to parents to give to private companies.
Jake Lilley
11:06 am on Thursday, October 4, 2012
Amen, Bill! Thank you for sounding the alarm on this. Unfortunately, most people turn off their brain when you say the word "Communism." So long as the water is boiled slowly, they will continue to defend the chef and never have the foresight or motivation to jump out of the pot.
Monty Brewster
6:35 pm on Thursday, October 4, 2012
Bill, if that is your way of "thinking" then the TX GOP is full of Marxist Commies... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html
Monty Brewster
12:11 pm on Friday, October 5, 2012
The source doesn't matter, as you can find it from about 3.8 million other sources, just type in "Texas GOP no critical thinking" in Google. Continue singing and dancing.
I think the one thing that we can agree on is that there are problems in education. The government is creating those problems, not the teachers and not the administration in the school districts. So how is creating more government going to help solve the issues that have already been caused by the current government?
If you want to solve the issues in education, we need less government. We need decisions on education to be made at the local level, not someone at the state capitol or Washington DC telling us how to educate our children.
I'm voting NO in NOvember.
Rae Harkness
7:03 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
I talked to a charter teacher this week that told me before coming to our school, she was ready to leave teaching forever. She said she is very happy now. The kids are the same, but when she has a problem with a student, she gets support and help from staff to resolve it, where in her old school they swept it under the rug and told her to deal with it herself.
Monty Brewster
7:50 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
I talk to a charter teacher several times a week, and all I hear is about how poorly the charter is run and how much administrative duties get put on the teachers. The teacher talks about how low morale is within the school and how other teachers within the school are crying at night because they are overburdened with duties they should not be responsible for. They are paid poorly while the management group walks away with millions of taxpayer dollars.
Also, it seems to me that issues should always be solved between the teacher, parent and student before ever having to go to administration unless it is something regarding illegal substances or potential harm to someone.
8:22 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
So this is your teacher's first year in the charter? Have you heard of a honeymoon period? Like Monty, I've heard some horror stories as well from teachers, and seen some children who've come out of charters with test scores that did not match how they performed in a traditional classroom, particularly with writing skills.
A friend who has a master's degree from an Ivy League school interviewed for a job teaching English at a charter school. The salary offered? $24K - yes, for a TEACHING position for a FULL school year - so she took a job working as a parapro making $20K in the public school instead. (Oh, and she was told she would be expected to sponsor AT LEAST two after-school activities at the charter as well.) Sounds like a dream job, yes?
Athens Mama
8:26 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Higher pay is a great incentive for teachers - but improved school culture is an even better incentive. I am an Educator and I would take a $5000 per year pay cut if I could ensure a supportive administration and families, a creative learning environment, respect for students and teachers, and a focus on taking things a step further.
Monty Brewster
11:58 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Athens, what if the results of a teacher survey of their administration's capabilities made the school look bad, and the administration totally ignored it and then gave out a new survey, but only to selected teachers?
Rae Harkness
8:35 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
@Monty, gee that sounds like the teachers at my NEIGHBORHOOD school, except for the management group that makes the money...the money DCSS Administrators family and friends steal!
Monty Brewster
11:45 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
So therefor all administrators and teachers must steal. I see your point. They're all thieves, unlike the CEO's that buy legislation to make millions with no investment other than their partnership in ALEC and funding legislator campaigns.
10:37 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
@Monty, Jennifer, No More, et al. I know the "any-charter-is-nirvana" crowd wouldn't spend time on anything not lauding charters, but thought you might appreciate this if it hasn't shown up on Facebook yet for you. It speaks to many of the concerns we have about this amendment, not NFP charters: http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2012/09/wont-back-down-ii-sequel.html
Jake Lilley
10:59 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Although I disagree with just about every point made by Elizabeth Hooper, I'm pretty sure I'm voting "No" on this one. For the record, I am pro-school choice, I voted AGAINST E-SPLOST, and personally believe that all education should be privatized.
So why am I voting "No?" The following is an excerpt from an opposition article, recently posted in the AJC. While I don't agree with every point made by the author, I think he is correct on the most critical issue - accountability:
By Sean Murphy:
"Rather than local school boards' accountability to the voter, a state appointed group of seven people will be empowered to create a separate system of schools. Although they will use your tax dollars for funding, they are not elected; if you don't like what they do, you can't vote them out. Unchecked power will be in the hands of this small, politically appointed group that will decide how and where schools operate."
Finally, I have discussed this issue with a sitting school board member who shares my economic and political philosophy of limited government, free markets, individual liberty and personal choice. Although (s)he is "pro-school choice," (s)he is also voting "No" for the reasons mentioned above.
Jennifer Hall
4:50 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Jake, that is exactly the point. This isn't about where you stand on educational choice. It's not about where you stand on charters, whether they are for- or not-for-profit. It's about who is in control of those choices. I don't want more government.
Kids First
4:41 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Hi Jake,
There's a lot of name calling on this blog so happy to see you write out your thoughts. Just a few things to keep in mind through your decision making time. Remember that the Board of Regents, State School Board and PSC are all appointed entities today. They are appointed for their expertise and 'getting rid' of one is possible.
Will you read one more article? I thought Benita Dodd from the GA Public Policy Foundation had one of the best explanations I've run across. "To be profitable, a company must offer a product that attracts enough consumers then keep them satisfied or lose them. Or it must monopolize the market and keep out any competitors that could build a better widget. That may explain why Georgia's education monopoly bureaucracy is reluctant to allow competitors to enter the marketplace of ideas." http://georgiapolicy.org/choice-charters-and-the-children/
Most school boards in the state have proven to be resistant to charter schools, not all, but most. There are bricks & mortar charter schools in less than 15 of our 180 school systems. That's it even though the charter school law is 11 years old in Georgia. If the school systems do what they should, the commission should only see denied schools that get a chance to appeal but will be denied by the commission as well. Only 16 out of nearly 60 were approved over the 2 years the commission was in place the first time. Like the State School Board, they want to do a good job.
9:45 pm on Saturday, October 6, 2012
Jennifer hall, the 16 schools you are referring to were approved by the charter commission before they wrte ruled unconstitional, and because they were ruled unconstitional most of those schools were unable to open. We need an appeals process for our kids. The traditional public schools keep our local tax dollar to spend on kids. If the charter school kids go back there will be more over crowding and even less money.or, the charter kids will be home schooled and the school district will lose all the money, even local tax money. They really lose then.
9:19 am on Sunday, October 7, 2012
"We need an appeals process for our kids.: You have an appeals process; the state BOE approved three new start-up charters and renewed three others this week. The Supremes ruled that taking local dollars for state charters was unconstitutional, not the state schools themselves. The governor, who has told almost everyone to cut another 3% from their state budgets, miraculously "found" state money to fund those state charters above and beyond the state allotment. So children in state charter schools are more valuable to the state than children in regular public schools? Really?
Look again at funding; the money follows the child. If those students in state charters had moved to traditional schools, the state would have paid less per FTE for them. Local tax dollars would have been spent on those students' education, but the state (somewhere) would have been able to make fewer cuts.
"The traditional public schools keep our local tax dollar to spend on kids." No, the local government allocates money to school districts per FTE. If a student is not enrolled, the TPS does not get the money, so they can't keep it.
"If the charter school kids go back there will be more over crowding and even less money..." There may be overcrowding, but some schools are actually under-enrolled. There will not be less money as, again, that child would be earning their FTE funding.
9:24 am on Sunday, October 7, 2012
"the charter kids will be home schooled and the school district will lose all the money, even local tax money. They really lose then." The school district won't get the money, since the student won't be enrolled, but they also don't have to staff to educate the child.
There is a process by which charters are currently being approved by the state. Yes, they only earn the state allotment now, but they may also re-apply to the local board to qualify the next year for local funds. Maybe the Charter School group should devote their time and energy to helping charter start-ups develop (and improve) valid charter applications rather than fighting to have the state fund your students at twice the rate our TPS students are funded. But a campaign of misinformation is easier than that, I guess...