text:
Wisconsin is going to have a second chance to choose a governor soon. A lot of dust is being kicked up in the realm of normal political rants, finger pointing, blame and what not ... it's a passionate decision coming up. At the same time, to my mind, some hard questions regarding ethics are not being asked.
Whether you like our current governor or not, you must admit that he has hung out with some folks who either clearly were in violation of the law or have serious ethical challenges. Personally, it wouldnt matter to me if he was a Democrat or a Republican, I simply can't abide this idea that our leaders have huge ethical issues and we agree to not speak about them.
Where the heck are the old fashioned reporters who ask the tough questions, come what may? Are the powers that be simply too large, too frightening, for our free press to go after these issues. Or is this mute button clicked because media is owned by some of the key players who manipulate politics, moguls who consciously and meticulously control what the public may hear and steer us toward a sort of functional oblivion — so that we keep conducting our routine lives without serious thought of protest?
This article should alarm anyone in this state.
Run in October 2011, it discusses actions by the Koch Brothers, arguably Gov. Scott Walker's largest contributors. It is well worth the read, and if you are of the opinion that Boomberg is not a credible source, the statements it makes can be easily researched from a spectrum of sources.
Included in that article is the following paragraph.
"A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries — in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East — has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism.
Now, I am no research genius — but here is a statement that is either TRUE or FALSE. Koch Industries either sold this stuff to the Iranians, or they didn't. If they did, then we currently have a governor who finds it ethical to take large amounts of money from a couple of guys who think they are beyond the law ... and who chose to deal with IRAN, whom most conservatives, I expect, believe is one of our greatest enemies! And I have to ask myself ...
What does the governor think about this statement? Does he approve of the Koch Brother's sale to Iran? Does he think this is a bald faced lie? What is his opinion about the statements in the Bloomberg article?
I am not going to hold my breath for an answer as I don't think anyone will ask him. I think our media, liberal and conservative, is cowed down due to the ownership ... that we have a sorta-free press now, depending on what you want to talk about. And, as an American who loves this country, I am sick of learning that yet another leader, gets to power on the big bucks of people who clearly act outside the law, who write their own book on conduct, and who do not give a damn about the consequences to little people like you and I.
My double question to you is ... conservative or liberal ... will you read this article and research it if you don't believe what it says; and then, will you still hold that this man is the best to lead this state?
I can assure you that if this was his opponent I would ask the same question ... to me this is simply a question of ethics.
J. B. Schmidt
11:05 am on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
I believe your story, but what are we to determine as poor behavior/bad judgement versus what is acceptable damage in the nature of politics? George Soros has been involved in many questionable actions and yet Democrats receive dump trucks full of many from him. My guess is that if you tried hard enough, you could find a questionable act conducted by any company that donates to politicians.
I am not quite sure what you want here. Are expecting conservative to step forward and demand Scott Walker leave office because his ties to Koch? Are you expecting liberals to disassociate themselves from any politician that has ties to George Soros (Tom Barrett)?
If the candidate has not performed an illegal act or allowed an illegal act to occur, then that needs to be your base for judgement. To make guilt by association a criteria would leave no one available for politics.
Johnny Blade
11:51 am on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
And the Democrats support Planned parenthood which MURDERS babies ... Hmmmmm very ethical
Johnny Blade
11:53 am on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Brian ... How many corporations own most media outlets .. I think you will find your answer there, it is similiar to the Russian PRAVDA ... it is government controlled media
Brian Carlson
12:00 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
This is the type of response I hear when I talk about this question of ethics. We have a sort of combination of cynicism and subjection to the inevitable, that politicians are funded, and to some extent run, by wealthy donors who may have questionable histories. George Soros, by the way, gave George Bush Jr. quite a check for Harken Oil Co, when it foundered, in order to buy political influence, according to him. He goes both ways. But I would encourage anyone to look into these mega funders of either party. I dont think we have to cave and accept that our leaders have strings pulled by these sort of folks. I think it should be a central topic of conversation. It isnt just accepting money...these are not benevolent souls we are talking about. Koch Industries has extensive business interests in this state and they expect actions for their money...we must assume.
What I hope is that conservatives or liberals or moderates would investigate their candidates...and that the propaganda be checked against who their funding comes from. I would think many conservatives would be less than comfortable with the fact that Walker gets huge amounts of money from a casino mogul for instance. But how many know that? Soros political involvement should be looked at as well.... that is my point: Check these guys out. And realize that money comes with requests for gods sake..if not orders.
J. B. Schmidt
12:18 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
@ Brian
I can agree with that, but to simply investigate will not change the outcome you dislike. I have investigated Walker and still prefer him to any Democrat I have seen. I have investigated Romney and will still vote for him over Obama all day.
There two things that stand in the way from people having the enlightened approach you seek. 1) Everyone has their own idea of right and wrong. Who is more wrong, Walker for taking from Koch or Obama taking from Maher? Depends on which candidate you support. 2) Information on the web is to mottled and many people don't know where to look. Should they look to my blog for info or yours? That would depend on your political persuasion.
As long as we have multiple political parties there will always be this kind of political involvement.
Brian Carlson
12:05 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
JB.... :" It was Soros who saved George W. Bush's bacon when his management of an oil exploration company was ending in failure. Soros was the owner of Harken Energy Corporation, and it was he who bought the rapidly depreciating stocks just prior to the company's collapse. The future president cashed out at almost one million dollars. Soros said he did it to buy "political influence." 15 Soros is also a partner in the infamous Carlyle Group. Organized in 1987, "the world's largest private equity firm" with over twelve billion dollars under management, is run by "a veritable who's who of former Republican leaders," from CIA man Frank Carlucci to CIA head George Bush, Sr. The Carlyle Group makes most of its money from weapons expenditures."
Brian Carlson
12:10 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Johnny, the issue here isnt about Democrats or Republicans. It is about leadership and whether or not our leaders support people who violate our laws. I think there are serious ethical issues here. Saying that other people in government also are unethical does not excuse the Governor. Determining that all politicians are unethical and thats just the way it is...is caving to my mind. Our leaders are above the law? I dont think so. I simply think that our Governor should be asked if he approves of the Koch Brothers selling petrochemicals technology to a state our current government views as an enemy. If he doesnt, why does he accept money from them?
2:45 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Have the Koch brothers been indicted on federal charges for these allegedly illegal sales to Iran?
Brian Carlson
12:22 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
JB... Walker is not running against Obama...at least yet. And I hope we can aspire to more than the lesser of two evils at some point in time.
J. B. Schmidt
1:09 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Was your point of this blog to ask a serious question and get a deeper understanding of the ramifications within society or to attack the conservatives unwilling to be broken by your powerful level of convincing?
I know that Walker is not running against Obama, but the heart of the matter which I thought your blog was about lies with in each at opposite sides of the spectrum.
If you wish to discuss solutions, then discuss. You are trying to have a discussion in which you hold all the answers and until we see it your way you will continue to pound us with half facts. You end with little side notes about understanding this occurs on both sides of the political aisle; yet, you are unwilling to accept it yourself and instead continue to launch attacks against conservatives.
Your assumption is that in the past the people running for office were upright citizens free from the ills that plague our society. They lead with pureness of heart and enlightened mind. That only businesses that were flawless in their perfect upholding of the law donated to political parties and the politicians that received that money only did so with the understanding it came with no stings. That is a joke. Politics has always been about scratching the other guys back. I think Johnny has the best solution. Why not discuss that rather then lay out more reasons Republicans are worse?
Johnny Blade
12:44 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Here is the problem ... The government has tooooo much power over us .. if we limit the federal government especially, to the limits of power established in the constitution we wouldn't have this problem, there would be no reason to stuff them with money to influence there power over us ... it is simple, we the poeple have given them this power over us for the "free" handout at someone else's expense
10:42 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
We the People are the government. The danger is when special interests buy legislators. Don't change the laws, change the corrupt politicians. How is that done? By researching candidates' past records and political affiliations, and if one slides past, remove them from office and replace them with a patriot.
Brian Carlson
1:05 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
One mis-statement... The Koch Bros are not Governor Walker's largest contributors...just heavy contributors.
3:28 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Do we know that for certain? They are even heavier contributors to the PACs that back Walker. We just don't know how much.
10:38 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
It's very difficult to track how many Koch millions have been filtered through super PACs, in addition to direct campaign support and indirect support to organizations such as the Republican Governors Association. The super PACs maintain private donor lists.
I just looked into the Right Direction Wisconsin PAC (Michael Adams, Treasurer). This is the organization credited for paying for the most recent attack ad on Barrett. Turns out RDW is simply the campaign spending arm of the Republican Governor's Association, who spent $5million on pro-Walker ads in 2010. The Kochs donated $50,000+ to RGA in 2010, by the way.
Brian Carlson
2:35 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
JB...I have no assumptions about people running for office in the past being upright citizens. Corruption affects many governments, some are rife with corruption, but probably all have some corruption. Again, this neither makes corruption right, nor does it justify corruption when it is evident or easy to access.
I think blogs are about conversation. I asked a question...a question with a question. Simply, why does no one ask Governor Walker his opinion about this action by his close allies and supporters...the Koch Bros? It is a two part question... I think reportage is "lite," often on issues which seem very significant. I pose the question, why is this so?
Brian Carlson
2:35 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Secondly, I would like to know what the Governor thinks and what people in Wisconsin think about this situation where powerful contributors to statewide leaders are seen to be disreputable...and the money is still accepted and utilized. Given the fact that this money comes with at least tacit expectations... are we all ok then with disreputable folks calling the shots in our state, benefiting handsomely from legislation they are "buying", etc? I think these are fair questions. I think the level of lobbying, statewide and nationwide, on all sides of the political spectrum are very disturbing. I don't think either party has an exclusive on the topic of being tied to lobbyists or this sort of influence. This doesnt prevent me from asking if this is acceptable to the readers of Patch, if they know about these issues, if they support this sort of influence, etc.
I think we should look at what Mr. Soros, the Koch's and numerous other people who purchase influence are doing with our leaders. Fortunately, a lot of it is accessible on the net for people like yourself who do research these candidates and figures. I also think that people who accept money should be held accountable to some extent, that this should be transparent information.
Brian Carlson
2:58 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Cow Dung...as I read the article, Koch industries itself sent in an investigator who came to the conclusion that law was being violated. Koch industries determined for themselves they were in violation....
"Those activities constitute violations of criminal law," Koch Industries wrote in a Dec. 8, 2008, letter giving details of its findings. The letter was made public in a civil court ruling in France in September 2010; the document has never before been reported by the media.
Egorova-Farines wasn't rewarded for bringing the illicit payments to the company's attention. Her superiors removed her from the inquiry in August 2008 and fired her in June 2009, calling her incompetent, even after Koch's investigators substantiated her findings. She sued Koch-Glitsch in France for wrongful termination.
3:09 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
OK, it sounds like they [Koch industries] took it upon themselves to investigate their actions, determined that they were in violation of the law, and presumably took steps to stop the activity.
Why should Walker be concerned with actions that happened in 2008, that were found to be 'incorrect' based on Koch's own investigation and stopped?
3:10 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
" Koch Brothers, arguably Gov. Scott Walker's largest contributors"
I don't think this is true, very few Koch contributions went directly to Scott Walker.
10:53 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Don't forget the super PACs, like AFP. Money spent on pro-Walker attack ads directly help Scott Walker.
12:38 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Yep, not forgetting anything. But who cares? Do the democrats not have PACs?
3:51 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Brian Carlson, You and Bren are way off on the Koch connection. Do you know that the "phoney phone call" would have been the first time that Walker talked to any of the Koch brothers personally? I think that to this day Walker has not really had any personal contact with the Koch brothers.
This is nothing more than a parrot of a lefty talking point, it's time to give it up.
10:52 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Did you listen to the fake phone call, Greg? The fact that the call got through to the Governor suggests that Walker did know Dave Koch (through ALEC of course), and/or eager to speak with him. Your thoughts and dreams can't compete with reality, Greg! ; )
It's known that ALEC personnel were in contact with Scott Walker about stripping collective bargaining rights before he was even inaugurated. And Koch lobbyists moved into a brand new office right across the street from the Capitol Building in early 2011. Scott Walker was an active member of ALEC. Rebecca Kleefisch was on cable TV defending ALEC. Koch Industries is a primary corporate partner and funder of ALEC, recently donating $1 million and loaning $500,000 more to promote their radical agenda--the one that has given us union busting, corporate tax cuts, Stand Your Ground/castle doctrine, etc.
You may hope with all your heart that the facts are "lefty talking points" but all your hopes can't change the facts. Dave Koch was recorded on video as saying that they have spent money on Scott Walker in Wisconsin and that they would be spending more.
9:39 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Funny how Walker knew Dave Koch so well but he somehow failed to realize that it wasn't his voice on the phone...
4:06 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Will Someone Start Asking the Hard Questions?
Is WEA Trust charging WI Taxpayers 20% over market value for health insurance OK? Is it ethical for Barrett to climb into WEAC's pocket?
If Walker was in WEAC's pocket I'd ask these same questions.
Lyle Ruble
5:03 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
@Brian Carlson...You have hit the nail on the head. Ethical questions should be the questions to be asked. With politicians attached to the "money cow teat", it is more important than ever to question funding and ethics; what those political contributions are really buying. I, long have been an advocate of public financing for political office, eliminating the preponderance of influence of the plutocratic oligarchy This is as anti-democratic as one can get.. .
9:38 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Yet you seem to support the recall of a person that threatens the Democrat's cash cow of union donations...
Lyle Ruble
9:50 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
@CowDung...I want to see the union cash cow go extinct as well as the corporate cash cow. There is only one answer and that is public financing.
10:54 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Yes. Special interests are the greatest single threat to our democracy.
Brian Carlson
5:13 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
I don't know about WEAC Greg. I am sure there are many injustices going on. Again, the preponderance of corruption doesn't mean we should turn blind eyes to it when it's exposed. Help us out with information or start your own blog Greg. or both... But I think none of the conservatives here have said... Hey, it's fine that the Koch Bros sold petrochemical technology to Iranians, fine that a sitting governor takes a lot of money from oil intererests that are helping Iran despite an embargo! You think that action happens without Koch Bros KNOWING about it? the action they took was to fire their investigator.
Jay Sykes
8:03 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Koch Industries has 50,000 (fifty thousand) employees. My guess is that if they were directly involved with the decision to ignore the embargo, one or more disgruntled employees would come forward; certainly not every employee would agree with the ethics involved in ignoring the embargo or the politics of the brothers Koch.
7:37 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
I still think that corruption in our own state tied directly to the candidate, is more important than a claim of something that may have happened half way around the word, without even a shirt tail connection to Walker. Please connect the dots.
Brian Carlson
10:04 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Half the way around the world is no longer half the way around the world. The economy is globalized, the nations are interwoven in loans, the corporations bridge any traditional boundaries. If money and influence comes in from billionaires who feel free to run contrary to embargos placed on foreign powers, the nature and extent of that influence becomes suspect. Moreover, how can you take money from people you do not respect and feel are running outside the law. Again, do you think its a good thing the Koch Brothers sold petrochemical equipment to the Iranians? A large part of their Wisconsin business is petrochemical related. I just wonder what the Governor thinks and why he would partner up with people like these and feel "conservative." We are trying to squeeze the Iranians in order to avoid war...another trillion dollar war that many, notably lots of Israelis, seem to want, not to mention the hawks in this country. Meanwhile we have billionaires end rounding the game. I think there is a pretty strong line between the dots.
Brian Carlson
10:08 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
From CBS news:
Tell me that the relationship between a Governor and these guys is inconsequential.
10:19 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
It is inconsequential if there is no true relationship.
The Koch brothers also support many charities, does Walker get or take credit for that? NO.
Brian Carlson
10:24 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Good god Greg...the Mafia supports charities. Does that clean their money or mean that the influence they have on politicians is cleaned up? Come on. Read up on the Kochs and get back to me if you like them. Money...big money... is control..or at least serious influence. That is relationship. But of course everyone has their own opinions...
10:24 pm on Wednesday, May 9, 2012
Can we better compare this to Obama selling arms to the Mexican cartels? Same game, right?
Lyle Ruble
7:00 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
@Greg....C'mon, this was a law enforcement sting that went rogue. The program was actually started by the Bush Administration and continued by the Obama Administration. The ATF and DEA dropped the ball on this one.
Brian Carlson
8:37 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Is Obama selling arms to Mexican cartels? If so, please post links. Arms sales is a huge business and a detestable one to my mind. But please let us know whether you are comfortable with people who clearly are in violation of embargo policies relative to Iran, who profit by assisting that government, also funding the campaigns of a sitting governor and thereby gaining influence on his statewide policies.
2:06 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
The rest of your post is nothing but assumptions and does not deserve any reply.
8:50 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Brian, you seem to be doing a really good job at blogging the "new talking points" that Barrett will be running on. I thought this recall was about taking away the "rights" of public employees??? Hmmmm...are you specially interested? I love how because someone has money they get labeled "special interest." I don't see any blogs by the Koch's trashing Barrett.......
Brian Carlson
9:21 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
I haven't seen Barrets talking point on the issue I raised about the Iran sales by Koch. Aside from that, I don't think I made any talking points that are on Barrets list. Will you be specific as to what you are addressing?
Brian Carlson
9:25 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
The Kochs founded and fund AFP, Americans for Prosperity, a tax exempt organization that violated it's status by creating political attack ads across this nation. You can easily access the ideology and methodology of AFP if you want to see how the Kochs "trash" politicians who aren't in line with their private agendas.
Brian Carlson
8:52 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Brian Carlson
8:48 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
If you like the Koch Bros and feel comfortable with them steering Wisconsin policies, including their concerted attack on the EPA, the current administrations efforts to grow alternative energy, wind power, etc., how do you like Sheldon Adelson, thegovernor's no.2 backer? Does the Tea Party feel that casino moguls are now model citizens, representatives of that sort of America they feel has been lost? Money is relationship...it is a political statement.
8:54 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
The evil Koch brothers own billions of dollars of real estate in Wisconsin, employ thousands and they shouldn't have a say in who is governor? Are you liberals mad....of course I know the answer to that, but they have just as much right as you goofs to give $5 bucks to Barrett.
11:38 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
@Alfred -- They shouldn't have more of a say than someone who actually lives in Wisconsin and has to live under the conditions they are promoting. And one of those conditions would be where the Koch brothers have more say than someone who can't obtain the 'proper' ID to vote.
They can contribute all they want, as long as we know the extent they're doing it and can decide for ourselves who's going to benefit.
9:16 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Alfred, you hit the nail right on the head! But realize, this is all he left can talk about. Barrett has been a disaster as mayor. What has he done in Milwaukee that he can hang his hat on? Nothing. That is why the left will be talking about the Koch's, the longest John Doe (and most public...ever) investigation ever, and lies...stay tuned Alfred...they have just begun.
Brian Carlson
9:28 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Csl, can you point out which lie I have posted here? I appreciate comments with substance.
Brian Carlson
9:18 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Brian Carlson
9:17 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Alfred, is it goofy to dislike the idea that government is, to a greater or lesser extent, for sale to the highest bidders? You actually WANT billionaires in control? Apparently plutocracy is your government of choice then... We can go back to the Gilded Age, to the days of the Robber Barons...assuming we are not already there. Or do you prefer a Corporatocracy? Can you state your preferred form of government and what the definition of that form means to you?
9:40 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Why do you want to squelch the voice of a fellow American? The constitution says nothing about our free speech in relation to net worth, if the Koch brothers want to support a candidate who are you to tell them they can't? I get that you are a marxist at heart Mr. Carlson, but at the end of the day, the Koch brothers have rights equal to yours. Get off of your jealously of them being more successful than you.
9:33 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Weird....just got this email (I like to read what the left is thinking) from Phil Walzak...sounds familiar:
Friend --
That didn't take long. Just as we suspected, Scott Walker and the Koch brothers are using their stockpiles of right-wing corporate cash to hit the airwaves with a massive negative advertising blitz aimed at Tom Barrett and our campaign.
Less than 24 hours after Tom accepted your nomination, both Walker's campaign and a Koch-fueled SuperPAC launched misleading attacks that the Washington Post has already blasted for their "extreme hypocrisy."
Well, we have some news for Scott Walker and his special interest friends: our grassroots network is in it to win it on June 5th. We're not pulling any punches, and if Scott Walker and David Koch are going to come after us, we're going to hit them right back -- hard.
Will you help Tom Barrett fight back by watching our new ad that shows how Walker's failed leadership is responsible for killing a Wisconsin job every hour? Click here to watch and assist our rapid response operation by rushing an urgent contribution of $5 right now.
The article in the Post goes on to note that despite what Walker's hypocritical ads say, the truth is:
Brian Carlson
9:38 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
I haven't seen that until you posted it ...I am not aligned with anyone and can't speak to their agendas.
9:33 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
"Wisconsin has had the worst job growth in the country, at a time when the rest of the country is recovering. Since Walker argued that his controversial policies were necessary to jump-start job growth, his recall election will be largely all about the economy, and Wisconsin's lag behind the rest of the country" -- Washington Post, 5/9/2012
Scott Walker's right-wing machine is ferociously attacking Tom Barrett, because they know that Wisconsin's middle class is uniting behind Tom's message of putting Wisconsin first. They may have the money, but we have the people-powered army that is ready to go neighbor-to-neighbor spreading the truth about Walker's disastrous agenda that puts out-of-state corporations ahead of working people.
The clock is ticking -- there are only 27 days left before June 5th -- and our campaign needs your continued support to stop Walker and the Koch brothers from using their corporate firepower to mislead Wisconsinites.
Please take a moment to watch our new ad and chip in with a $5 contribution to replenish our rapid response fund right now.
Thank you,
Phil Walzak
Deputy Campaign Manager
Brian Carlson
9:40 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Not sure what point you are making Csl. Did you want me to say something about the accessibility of info on Koch Industry agendas?
9:47 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Why would you? You are not aligned with anyone and cant speak to their agendas.
9:37 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
This is a lie:
Run in October 2011, it discusses actions by the Koch Brothers, arguably Gov. Scott Walker's largest contributors.
Brian Carlson
9:44 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
If you scroll back you will see I corrected that mis-statement as soon as I recognized it was inaccurate. They are major contributors.
9:56 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Good talk Brian. I need to get back to work before I am out of work! Good Day!
Brian Carlson
10:06 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Brian Carlson
10:04 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
I have been tagged directly or indirectly in this thread, as part of the left, or a Democrat... When I say I am not aligned it is because I don't know the full agendas of many organizations I may agree in part with...but who may be up to other things I disagree with. Also, I am not part of a monolithic block... what is a "republican" or a "democrat"? The words have very little distinct meaning. The right, the left...these are gross abstractions. I am one citizen of what touts itself as a free and democratic country... And I would like that freedom and democracy to be real, not to be a
smokescreen to lull the majority into a symbolic daze while corporate moguls call the shots on what gets done. We were to have a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Right?
10:10 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Right! Thats what I thought I was getting when I voted in Scott Walker...you know...a government by the people. I guess the huge money Unions did not think I should have that right.
Brian Carlson
10:26 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
You were mislead to some extent then. Unions, of course, represent their membership. Corporations are all about their bottom line. SuperPacs work for the advantage of their boards. The influence of, if not control by, big money, to use your term, eclipses the interests of individuals, gives a lie to the idea that you are represented. You are taxed but the idea that you are represented, has to be qualified. Fortunately, it's still possible to speak up for what you like or in protest.
10:35 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
You do realize that the unions fund SuperPacs as well, don't you?
10:35 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Well if you really think that Unions represent their membership...it is you that is mislead. The teachers union was ready and willing to let teachers go rather than offer a fair and comparable health insurance option. And what was it they were doing with the excess cash from WEAC? Lets take the amount WEAC gave to the Democratic Party of Wisconsin and compare that to what the Koch brothers gave Scott walker.
I agree, we are fortunate to speak...thanks for the blog.
10:30 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Corporations represent thier shareholders Brian. Deny you are a liberal all day long, its obvious which side you are on.
Brian Carlson
11:32 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
I wish there were reply buttons for all posts. Yes CD, I know unions also fund SuperPacs. I dont like lobbying as it is played out in this country and I dont like Super Pacs. I dont like the fact that government can be bought. I think contributions to candidates and to sitting officials should be very transparent and very limited. I dont like Obamas Super Pacs..., I dont like the ones that fund Walker. I dont like propaganda in general... by which I mean the use of content "lite", truth skewed, political advertising, that heavily deploys visual symbols and cues, and hammers simple slogans like "Forward or Backward...that is the only question we face," steering voters away from real conversations such as the one we are engaged in.
I am no one of course. I dont think of myself as significant in the grand scheme of things. I am posing a question as to whether or not government leaders should be questioned as to relationships they have with prime donors... particularly when those donors periodically run seriously outside of the law. I am wondering why the specific issue I cited ISNT an issue, evidently, with many supporters of this Governor. I dont hear answers... The general drift I get I would sum up by phrasing,
"this is just the way things are. Business as usual. All sides guilty." In other words, backers of this Governor are ok with his tie to a corporation guilty of huge sales of petrochemical equipment to Iran, to violating embargos..etc. Its not a problem.
12:49 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
U.S. law allowed foreign subsidiaries of U.S. multinational companies to engage in trade involving countries subject to U.S. trade sanctions, including Iran, under certain conditions, Brian, was an ignorant cheap shot.
1:09 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Funny how you seem to be devoting most of your time to complaining only about the SuperPacs that are associated with the Koch brothers rather than SuperPacs in general.
As far as the other 'issue' you cited, if they are truly guilty of illegal sales to Iran and violating embargoes, then they should be brought up on charges and convicted. The fact that the Koch brothers are not in prison or even facing charges indicates that it really isn't the issue you are trying to make it out to be.
If you heard people saying "this is just the way things are. Business as usual. All sides guilty.", then you are only listening to what you want to hear.
3:05 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
"In other words, backers of this Governor are ok with his tie to a corporation guilty of huge sales of petrochemical equipment to Iran"
Campaign contributions do not a "tie" make. Unless you are grasping at straws, which you are.
2:11 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Not saying that it is "our Brian", but check line #10.
2:20 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Oh, but come on....he is just a Non-aligned observer. Seems to me he is very aligned and by writing a blog...would that make him more than an observer?
2:56 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
When it comes to being a Non-aligned observer some hard questions regarding ethics are not being asked.
Brian Carlson
3:50 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
The fact that I vote in general elections does not mean I am aligned with one party or another. No...Csl.... my middle name is not Thomas. Observers can make observations or what use are they? You guys have a lot of "rules" I never subscribed to. Do you expect bloggers not to come from a particular perspective? Is that your stance in your replies? Obviously, each of you have views, like or dislike our Governor for this or that reason, etc. Why would you expect I should be different?
3:11 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
We can all point fingers. It is easy to find bad guys in positions of power. No one here has a monopoly on virtue. It is time to live in the present ... to act in the present and to make your will for peace known.
Brian Carlson
3:55 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
I have already said that no party or official has a monopoly on virtue. Greg you are repeating points I have made. I appreciate that but you seem to think they are arguments. I agree with you.
I do not agree that we should remain quiet when our officials are being influenced by people who steer legislation in exchange for serious financial contributions. If any of you believe the Koch Brothers have no significant influence on what goes on in this state, then we agree to disagree.
Relative to trying to determine who I am specifically Csl, my photo is posted as is my real name. I do not hide behind nicknames, or first name only signatures. I wish everyone on Patch would do the same.
4:11 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Easy Brian...I just asked if you signed the recall petition? I was curious to know. I make no bones about it. I am a conservative and have a problem with paying $8,000 a year in property taxes for not much. I have no kids in the school system. Scott Walker is doing what I think is right and WHY I VOTED HIM IN THE FIRST TIME. But again, I am being told by the left that my vote did not count....
Brian Carlson
4:30 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Yes. Whether I did or not has nothing to do with whether there is an ethical problem with taking oil money from people who trade across embargo lines. I am no one. The Governor, on the other hand, is the highest official in our state. He represents the law statewide and should stand for federal law as well. What does he think of the Koch deals? We will never know. But their money looks good.
Brian Carlson
4:26 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Csl.... You have every right to vote for Scott Walker and to defend him. No one has told you your vote doesn't count. Recall elections are part of the provisions our state has made for situations exactly like the current one. No one is forcing this nor does a recall election itself mean that your vote will not count. Mr. Walker is our Governor right now... you voted for him...right? He may or may not win the recall election...it appears it will be a close contest. In that election your vote and mine will count exactly alike. Who is this "left" that tells you things....? Is there a spokesman for this "left"? This is what I mean about black and white thinking... Is "left" all that you disagree with? Is is simply people who vote for non-Republicans? It is very vague terminology as it is when liberals talk of "the right" as if that meant something particular. Language is highly limited as a means to communicate to begin with...but I think we need more clarity of thought which means more precision in terms of words. Just my opinion...
Brian Carlson
4:38 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Hey, I would honestly like to thank everyone for keeping the replies and statements on this thread above the belt. It was refreshing not to have to watch the thread transition to blog vandals slinging taunts at one another. Conversation is interesting and of potential value when the silly boyish squaring up and posturing is transcended. I like to hear diverse points of view presented in a respectful interchange. That is constructive, even when we disagree.
Brian Carlson
5:20 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Greg, I liked the urban dictionary thing! Yes... of course. As all human truth is subjective we are all self deceived! One thing I am not deceived about though is having any thought as to being a pro at life! Definitely an amateur. A hacker! There are few water hazards or sand traps I am not familiar with.
9:03 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Brian, I haven't read all the posts, forgive me if I repeat some themes. While you state your complaint is against a political system and the lack of ethics within it, you focus very specifically on only one example, Governor Walker and Koch Industries' campaign contributions. So no wonder those who support the governor are a little dubious of your critique. Of course unethical behavior is to be condemned. But ethics exercises, real and academic are posed all the time, for example, your survival is at risk as you drift in the sea. Lifelines are offered only by very rich people, all who's ethics are questioned by some because of how they attained their wealth and others just because they are wealthy, call them Koch and Soros. Your only immediate decision is to grab a line or drown. If you grab a line perhaps in time you can reform a system that only permits wealthy people to throw the lifelines. This is the course President Obama has taken; originally in '08 claiming he would accept matching funds, only to change his mind and out raise his opponent. Today his Department of Justice is reluctant to prosecute Wall Streeters complicit in the '08 financial collapse because many in the DOJ come from that world, and many of the Wall Streeters financially support the president's campaign. Is a good person or good career that is saved by a bad person necessarily compromised and wasted? To some the answer may be easy, to many others it will be complicated, i.e., it depends ...
Lyle Ruble
9:40 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
@Eric....I am encouraged that Brian is at least asking the questions. You bring up some interesting issues. I am most captivated about if evil can be converted to good. This brings up the question of does it matter how a fortune is earned and maintained as long as it provides some limited good. How much good would have to be done to offset the evil? The first question to be asked is how was the fortune earned and was the process and intent evil? It reminds me of the associations maintained during WW II where American financial institutions covertly and actively continued to do business with the Third Reich. Included in that group was G.E. and AT&T, putting business interests ahead of national interests. Rather than an ethical issue it appears to be more of a moral issue. In this case if Koch Industries is profiting by doing business with Iran, even if it's legal, is it moral when so many of our citizens and friends have been killed indirectly by their actions. We once almost brought a president down because of Iran Contra. In the course of my life I have known a number of Iranians and I don't consider them enemies, but their radical Islamic interpretation and fatwas are my enemy. If Koch Industries providing them with petro/chem equipment is aiding to the reduction of threat, then it is a good thing. However, this is something that is undetermined. It appears that when it comes to power and wealth, the powerful practice what I can only call pocketbook morality.
Nick Poulos
9:51 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
"Questions are the piety of thought"
keep up the good work.
One question we need answered: Why do Walker's ads lie and distort reality?
9:52 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Walkers ads don't lie and distort reality. Why does Nick Poulos lie and distort Scott Walker?
10:44 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Steaks and politicians. Steaks - rare or well done? A piece of meat either way. Politicians, a little or very corrupt? A politician either way. I prefer my steak rare and politicians left hanging on the meat hook in the butcher house freezer. Corruption and collusion from politicians does not taste good nor is it a value from a taxpayers standpoint. T- bones on the grille are tasty without the side effects of regret of eating them, unlike voting for undesireables like the state is faced with.
Nick Poulos
11:05 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
@Alfred: you're too funny.
Walker's ethics are only one issue. His near-fascistic ways; his apparent lack of concern for people, workers, families, educational needs,; his commitment to destroy the principles of a democratic republic; etc. "True North principles" never change, unless you are Scott Walker, apparently. It's a shame none of you see past the distortion of reality. "Truth is un-hiddenness." Obviously, you've been drinking the plutes's Kool-Aid: Get thee to a Tubal Detoxification lab, pronto!
Neil John Smith
12:18 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Hello, my name is Nick Poulos, and I'm a rageaholic.
Neil John Smith
11:28 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Is everyone here really this dumb? Am I missing the big picture? The #1 goal of a business is to..........wait for it................wait for it..........MAKE MONEY! That is the SOLE purpose of a business!!! Is everyone here really that far out of touch with reality?
Brian Carlson
7:19 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
The question, again, is not about money. It's about what is done with money and HOW that money is made.
Brian Carlson
11:39 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Eric, I come out of a religious based background, several religions informing me, and none of them, to my knowledge say that ends justify means...moreover that good ends can be justified by bad or evil means. I pretty much still hold with that belief. Not everyone does and you may or may not be one of them. Koch Industries determined that what they were doing was illegal...not me. I don't know what came after that beyond the firing of the investigator. There is and was an embargo.
I am not apprised on the situation you described with Obama, but if he is guilty of breaking a law or is trading favors with people who are breaking the law, he should be called on the carpet for doing so.
I encourage the dubious to research Koch industries themselves and deduce what they will. Maybe they will feel better about their governor...maybe not.
As to bad persons saving good ones, that doesn't seem to be the issue I addressed. I was talking about influence...not support. The money is less the issue than is whatever may be returned for it... It's not likely a gift...more of a trade. If you trade with a bad person, to use your analogy, what is it you are asked to do and does that serve your state?
Neil John Smith
11:56 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
My only beef with Koch Industries is that they are not publicly listed. Because I want in on that action.
9:02 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Brain, I'll trust you that Koch Industries has done some things I'd disapprove of, and again, almost anyone achieving a powerful position is generally open to critique from the rest of us, though we can all debate the degree of critique that is warranted. I know that the Koch brothers have been supporters of liberterian causes for decades, and that unregulated international trade fits with that philosophy. I also recall that candidate Obama campaigned on engagement with Iran. So I'm not entirely sure what degree of critique or admiration the Kochs deserve. What interests me most is our broken campaign system. I find your sentence, "I was talking about influence...not support", a little confusing, because I think you go on to equate support to influence and quid pro quo, which most of us assume is normal in politics. What seems inconsistent to me, is that Governor Walker and the Kochs are held out as amoral or inethical examples, and President Obama and his wealthy supporters are rationalized as good guys who's ends justify their means. Looks to me like the whole campaign system distorts democracy by allowing the wealthy and/or organized to shout over everyone else. The powerfully/wealthy will frequently be judged as morally wanting by the rest of us, but we'll just as frequently disagree on the specifics of who should be critiqued when. What I think we should always agree on, is to not have a political campaign system that magnifies the power of the wealthy and their warts.
12:39 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
In my church they pass a basket and yet they say that everyone there is a sinner. Should we raise questions about their ethics?
Neil John Smith
11:48 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
So hide behind your trite cliches and meaningless banter and observations. Or the rants about <insert politican name here> is owned by <insert company name here>. As long as the poltician is working for American's financial gain he's got my vote. And that, my fellow patch friends, is how it works.
Neil John Smith
11:53 pm on Thursday, May 10, 2012
What it comes down to is this....an economic war. And I want America to win. I could care less what American corporations do abroad as long as: THEY PROVIDE ME WITH A DIVIDEND WHEN I BUY THEIR STOCK. Selfish? I know.
@Lyle. I could care less about what GE and AT&T did during WWII. GE has treated me very well. I should show you my car I bought with my dividends. Very stunning.
If GE or Aegis Defense Services or General Dynamics or Rockwell Collins or Navistar Defense or Oshkosh Corporation invented a product that maimed or killed people abroad who cares? As long as the dividend increases! Good for them! You know why? Because all those crappy countries abroad are trying to do the same thing.....how funny!
Lyle Ruble
7:08 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
@Neil...I find your attitude, ideology and practice morally bankrupt. Those who share your immoral beliefs are at the core of the problem that denies the worth and humanity of others. Yes, this is all about "pocketbook morality".
Brian Carlson
7:28 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Quite true Neil. Many people reason like you with no apparent concern as to how the companies they invest in gat to profitability... Just so they get there. This is why our lifestyles are constructed upon the misery of so many others. This is why, for a symbolic but true example, our kids get to wear college logo sweatshirts made by children who earn 32 cents and hour working twelve hours a day, six days a week... Kids who will never get close to college, let alone the ability to buy cool gear to advertise their schools. Many people can sleep easily with this type of world. Some feel we are somehow entitled to our wealth, that we are helping those people with our exploitation...even that God has blessed us in particular so that this is all divine will. I don't.
J. B. Schmidt
7:46 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Those kids and making more money at $.32 per hour then they would have bent over planting rice be hand. If they weren't working long hard hours in factories they would working long hard hours on farms (for no pay). Should we leave those countries and return those people to a life of complete poverty or is there a chance that making our products could be improving their lives? Do you have proof their lives are worse?
11:26 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Yes, Neil, but which Americans? If those dividends you like so much are being generated by putting average Americans out of work through off-shoring and by paying the rest less for their work, there will come a time when consumers can't afford the product anymore and those profits drop. We already saw that during the recent downturn. Did your stocks and your funds pay you dividends then?
The economy is sucking its consumer base dry to generate extra wealth for CEOs and stockholders, who will be well insulated from hardship when it all crashes. I would call the people who promote this and allow it to happen traitors to America and our way of life.
Brian Carlson
7:29 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
This is the attitude that brings planes to our buildings. But I appreciate Neils candor.
J. B. Schmidt
7:30 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Can we also take the Democratic party to task regarding Koch donations?
I would be willing to put a healthy bet on the Democratic party taking the five figure donation they requested had Koch Industries not outed them for hypocrites.
Since both parties take political donations from Koch, the only answers to your questions are: 1) They don't care where the money comes from. 2) They don't know the inner working of the businesses that donate. My guess is that it's a good part of both and if a reporter asked the questions you wanted asked, any politician in his right mind would answer ambiguously with #2.
The problem is that people on the right are ok with Koch, while at the same time people on the left are ok with Soros. Eliminating these people will not fix the problem as new people and influences will replace them.
Brian Carlson
7:32 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
I recommend "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins to anyone who wants to learn the dynamics from an insider as to how this economic war, mentioned above, is conducted. On a global scale we make countries self serving "offers they can't refuse," and once accepted, their indebtedness puts them in our pockets.
J. B. Schmidt
7:54 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Yes, evil American business. The world would be so much better without them. We would all be happy subsistence farmers bartering for what we need with goats and eggs. We can all dream of that day as socialism slowly chokes of wealth generation in our societies.
Brian Carlson
7:51 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Greg, the post on ATF gun "walking" to drug cartels is very disturbing and should have a lot more examination. many believe the war on drugs is maintained to perpetuate instability in specific regions so that we can continue our influence with military or CIA presence... An advantage that would be imperiled by the presence of freely elected democratic leaders. This has been part of our history certainly.
Brian Carlson
8:30 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
JB you are too intelligent to read what I write as black and white as you have. Empire building, by any empire, has been, by general standards of morality, amoral. Weaker countries are conquered, either directly by force, or directly albeit less obviously by economic means, and are subsequently exploited. Exploitation that pays marginally more than abject poverty, working conditions that are, by any ethical standard, prisons... The workers being physically abused, working ridiculous hours with next to impossible demands for production at meager wages, with absolutely no rights...these, to my mind ARE evils of business as usual. You may find them acceptable... But this take that we are doing people favors by offering slave wages and conditions to people who might otherwise starve is, to my mind, a grievous excuse to ignore our own complicity in grave human rights abuses most certainly a cornerstone of MANY, not all, businesses. There are stellar examples of businesses that actually help their workers... Exploitation is not help.
9:09 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Brian, you are posing lots of questions and only half critiques, so how would you make it better? As JB eludes earlier, do we all return to log cabins and bartering, or ... ?
Neil John Smith
9:22 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
You know what would be fun? Going through everyone's house on this posting and looking at the goods they have and what country it was produced in. Would be very enlightening. Or how they earn a living, where the money actually comes from. Follow the money trail. At least I'm honest with myself. And understand how a capitalist society works.
Lyle Ruble
10:09 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
@Brian Carlson....The comments you are currently receiving are an indication that we are, in fact, suffering a deterioration of morality. The outcome of the Reagan years is that greed and the pursuit of self interest is the highest moral principle. It is clothed in the values of self sustainability and personal responsibility. In a strange way this is the outcome of a distorted belief in Social Darwinism. The empire of the United States has gone the way of all the past empires; dedicated to our own supremacy without any thought to our eventual decline and the results on our own population. Exploitation of others makes us vulnerable to exploitation. We are already beginning to see it with a devaluation of the worth of labor. It appears to me that we are in a trend where humanity is being globally devalued and for the longest time in this nation has treated our own human beings are nothing more than another resource to be exploited to create wealth and power for a select few.
One must remember that the ultimate rests in the citizen's hands, the vote. We can make a powerful statement by voting in those that still value human beings and the future of a positive life.
10:29 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Lyle, really? If we were to examine your pristine past and career, can you honestly say that all of your choices in life put the good of mankind above your own selfish interests? Instead of always looking down your nose at the rest of us, take a good long look in the mirror at your own life....you are no different than our good friend Neil.
J. B. Schmidt
10:52 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Please explain to me the morality of the exploitation of the rich. Why is it morally correct to forcibly take money from those that produce and give to those that don't? Any honest evaluation of the last 200 years has proven that capitalism and wealth has done more for this planet then any altruistic agenda of social equality.
The devaluation of the workforce has always been. Please name a time when a business existed for its employees. Business since the beginning of time has existed for the owner and as a result of his desire for wealth the employees benefit.
Lyle Ruble
11:10 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
@Alfred...I will ignore for now your incessant Ad hominem attack and respond with no one is completely moral. But conducting my life in a moral manner is very important to me. Just as pulling out investments in apartheid South Africa in the 1970s, refusing to invest in companies that exploited workers, companies that are major polluters, etc.
There have been many opportunities for me to become insanely wealthy, but I walked away because the means to that wealth were immoral or amoral.
I simply look at the stated values of those who find nothing wrong with how wealth is attained along with what they do with that accumulated wealth. It is not looking down my nose but a sincere evaluation of moral behavior.
Lyle Ruble
11:26 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
@J.B. Schmidt....The jury is still out concerning whether or not the 200 years have made mankind better off. That is also how you judge "better off". I am amazed that you would claim the wealthy as being exploited, there is no sufficient logic to support such a supposition.
There are a number of companies that employee owned, cooperatives and such. I refer you to Nucor Steel once again. Their employees have a say and are willing to sacrifice for the good of the company when it is necessary and the company rewards them in return.
You and I have had a number of discussions over morality and you see greed as the main motivator for achievement. As you know I completely disagree with this view and the causal conditions are numerous and complex. However, without a clear set of moral principles to govern human behavior and especially how we conduct business, our culture and society will not be long for the world. In my book it is better to be moral and poor than immoral and rich.
Jay Sykes
3:17 pm on Monday, May 14, 2012
AT&T once supported the the evil empire. So what do I do, when I want to make a telephone call, as nearly all the major phone companies in the USA are made up of the 1984 AT&T assets divestiture(baby bells,ATT invented the cell phone system);no phone calls for you!!! . Need an MRI, or any of many,many other medical imaging procedures; probably not, as it is likely a GE machine or running GE technology.
Lots of conjecture and innuendo, but, no evidence that the brothers Koch specifically endorsed the plan to sell to an embargoed country. However. there appear to be ethical issues with the way they disclosed the problem when they discovered it. Maybe, for some, guilty in the court of public opinion; in a court of law, clearly not guilty.
Nick Poulos
11:16 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
@Alfred and @JB; my thinking is close to Lyle's: so I won't repeat.
I do find that your comments deflect your thinking from the path that might lead to thinking those deep thoughts n asking those questions that look for the truth, that which is unhidden. All of us-not only in the US, but across the globe are interconnected. Essentially, more Americans discount this Truth than embrace it and live accordingly.We must change our approach to thinking; we must change our thinking about Democracy and Capitalism.
It may be true for all of us that our beliefs, opinions, behaviors, and attitudes have changed as we have grown, learned to ask more of the right questions, and come to grapple what it means to be interconnected.
I am sure that as a recovering plutocratic Republican my opinions, beliefs, etc. have grown and changed. I would hope that they do for all educated people. If not, get thee to a tubal detoxification facility, now!
I haven't had the privilege of sitting with Lyle or others who question what is going on but I think we all have come to realize that in this interconnected world an approach founded on Augustinian and Aristotelian beliefs will be better for the whole. Isn't that with what we all ought to be concerned? Instead we have Ayn Rand's selfish,objectivism fueled by calvin's misunderstood belief about earning. Hyper greed, hyper capitalism is just plain sinful. Embrace instead: Truth, Unity, Beauty, Goodness and Love. try it for a decade, see the results.
Brian Carlson
11:50 am on Friday, May 11, 2012
Jb...Last century, certainly the most extraordinary in human history by geometric proportions in terms of material advancement, technology,science,etc.... over 200 MILLION people died as a result of military conflicts... perpetuated by administrations very much motivated by materialistic goals. I dont call that advancement, the "ascent of man" or progress in any sense of the word. If progress is predicated on the slaughter or usurpation of human beings... it is not progress. Our technological and scientific prowess, has outstripped the sort of maturity and wisdom to understand how to apply these advancements for the betterment of mankind as a whole. We are entirely interdependent on one another... Eric... I wish I could solve the huge problems but of course I cant. What we can do is work on a paradigm shift that is no longer based on the way things were the past few centuries.... no longer rooted in a myopic and isolationist nationalism... but cognizes what should be obvious... the globe has no lines drawn on it...my air and water is your air and water... the sun shines on us all ....or doesnt. We have to think globally while acting in our communities...such as this one.. to share thoughts in a respectful manner. We have to grow up to the requirements of a single planet.
J. B. Schmidt
3:40 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
Which of those administrations were built on free market capitalism and which was a dictator or communist rule. There is a stark difference between the material desires of a regime (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) and the national desire to prosper as seen in the US. While the US system creates few uber wealthy individuals, the vast majority are benefited. The proof is that that even our poorest rank in the top 10% of world income. The regimes that started the wars and killed the vast majority of people in the last 100 years were dedicated to making governmental officials wealthy to the detriment of the populous.
At the same, you cannot blame US prosperity for the poor in the world. The world would be a much worse place if the US had not embraced capitalism and used wealth to beat Hitler, communism or spread trillions in aid to nations in trouble.
12:49 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
I think your blog was well intentioned, but certain examples took it off track. In the end it will make me look differently at things like Obama's billion dollar "War Chest". I'm sure the who's and where's could fill a massive blog with ethical challenges.
Brian Carlson
3:49 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
Greg, I am happy if my blog leads you to deeper examinations of anyone's war chest including the Presidents'. When you come up with some examples, like the specific one I cited, let us know. The standard one is Soros... and I agree, it would be better if everyone understood what he is up to. At the same time, Soros helped George Bush Jr. out extensively, buying Harken Oil from him for the expressed purpose of purchasing political influence. So... some of these guys go both ways so to speak.
Brian Carlson
4:00 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
J.B. You have a huge topic introduced there. I would imagine that the Axis powers all saw themselves as capitalists. Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, and a host of other large corporate powers built the war club that took us years to break. Hitler, to sort out one of the true bad guys, had a plan for a Third Reich. He was to be the next Caesar. To do this, he had to break the British Empire. What do you imagine differed significantly between the plans of the British Empire and the plans of the Caesars? They sought to have that flag waving wherever the sun arose...global empire. Caesars was as global as he could be at the time, but the Brits pulled it off. In doing so, they exploited peoples all over the planet with impunity, with racism, with a suprematism that was very close to the sort of white Aryan suprematism Hitler touted. I dont know how many people the Brits killed over the whole length of that empire and prior to pulling out of all their holdings..."granting freedom," to these people. They certainly were not free under the Brits. Hitlers plan was horrific and finally was pulled down. It was pulled down by a concert of the waning British Empire and the new empire, the super power United States. From the days of Manifest Destiny, the US has systematically, progressively, spread its holdings, influence and control around the world. If you are in the dark as to the nature and extent of our actions, in Latin America, the Middle East, etc. you should read up on them.
Brian Carlson
4:06 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
It is not all a history to be proud of JB. I sincerely wish it was. The prosperity you mention was built, to great extents and continues to be built on the suffering of non-Americans. It requires it. THis is the elephant in the closet of all of our lifestyles. Denying it or ignoring it is an option. But the folks who suffer aren't deluded about the nature of American power. Even our NGOs are used, in concert with the economic warfare and direct interventions (threats, assasinations) to pressure alignment with our "democratic" will. Free markets? Hmmmm.
Jay Sykes
4:26 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
Lots of conjecture and innuendo, but, no evidence that the brothers Koch specifically endorsed the plan to sell to an embargoed country. However. there appears to be ethical issues with the way they disclosed/resolved the problem, when they discovered it. Maybe, for some, guilty in the court of public opinion; in a court of law, clearly not guilty.
It was noted above that AT&T and GE once supported(conducted business with) the the evil empire(Hitler et al.). So what does one do, when they want to make a telephone call, as nearly all the major phone companies in the USA are made up of the 1984 AT&T assets divestiture(baby bells & AT+T is the cell phone inventor);no phone calls for you!!! . Need an MRI, or any of the many,many other medical imaging procedures; guess one should suffer, as it is likely a GE machine or running GE technology.
Please define the line, with mathematical precision, as I will use it in all my decision making.
Lyle Ruble
5:15 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
@Jay Sykes...Each of us must decide what is acceptable morally and ethically. You well know that many companies walk a very fine line between ethical and unethical practice. This can and does often lead to them stepping across the line into illegal practices. For many corporations, attorneys are key in decision making and to prevent stepping across that line. I remember the day when Allen Bradley was constantly being dragged into court for unfair business practices and losing. This just an example of solid profitable companies doing what they want regardless of moral or legal consequences.
G.E. and AT&T have added to technology, but they are not the only innovators in the world. Their corporate leadership should have been brought up on charges of treason. Another couple of well known names that were financially involved with the Third Reich was Penobscot Bush and William Harriman. It just proves to me that there is several levels of justice, one for the 99% and one for the 1% plutocracy.
Brian Carlson
7:12 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
I think I mentioned earlier that the planet doesnt have lines scribed on it where countries end. Corporations are ubiquitous. They may headquarter here, but the product is made on the other side of the planet. There appear to be several governments.... The idealist mythological one we were taught about as kids, the work-a-day government, with it's representatives and senators and presidents, it's two parties....then there are massive multi-national corporations with incredibly large incomes, and, last but not least, there is the CIA and other covert forces, which historically is not always in line with the administration. I think we have to grasp the truth that there is no Santa, and let the first rest on the shelves near our childhood toys and photos. When dealing with the second I think healthy skepticism, listening between the lines and looking beyond the postures, seems critical. Those folks are well aware of the other two governments... And we must do what we can to peer through the subterfuge to see as much as possible what the he'll is going on. We can't see through red white and blue colored glasses...
Brian Carlson
7:23 pm on Friday, May 11, 2012
We have to look sharply if we love this this country. We can't screen out all communication from "the other side" if we are to live together and improve our country and world. Denying what we have done wrong will not win us any trust in the future. Wecanbuildon what isgreatabout this country but not with blinders on, not by resisting fair critique. We may again be able to raise our heads one day....speak without hypocrisy about human rights to others who abuse them, and become able to assert that this country stands for equality, freedom and liberty. But we only fool
ourselves if we assert this while wearing the ermine robes of empire. The rest of the
planet can see through them.


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Prom was this past weekend, I'll be sharing more about it soon but I prepared this post ahead of time so I could enjoy the weekend without stressing about the blog!
Black bean soup has become one of my more recent absolute favorite soups. I have always been a big fan of soup, but black bean has just become my new bestie, especially since I made the whole vegetarian change in my life a couple months ago.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Panera's black bean soup, but never quite realized how easy it is to make my own black bean soup at home.
This version is not really exactly like Panera's because I decided I wanted it to have a bit more body to it. The addition of rice is purely optional, but I think it really adds something! You can enjoy this as a meal by itself or if you're feeling hungry, some bread or focaccia would be aweee-some.
Black Bean & Rice Soup
2 cans black beans
4 cups vegetable (or chicken) broth
2 Tablespoons all-purpose flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon garlic powder
1 teaspoon onion powder
1 teaspoon cayenne pepper
1 teaspoon paprika
3 cups prepared rice
- Blend together the black beans with the broths, using an emulsion blender or food processor.
- With the black bean mixture in a large pot, add in salt, flour, and seasonings. Cook on medium heat until nice and hot. (You don't need to bring it to a boil).
- Add in rice and keep on medium-high heat for about 10-15 minutes, stirring occasionally until everything is incorporated. Enjoy!
Random Fact of the Day: The human heart creates enough pressure to squirt blood 30 ft. (GAGGGG!!)
Related articles
- Easy Black Bean Soup (chronicinthekitchen.com)
- Crisp Black Beans Cakes with Spicy Avocado Mousse. (thenomadiczest.com)
- Pork in Black Bean Sauce (projectlearntocook.com)


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Read what our customers say about our Personalized Christmas Ornaments and their shopping experience!
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Welcome to the Woodcraft website. We are continually adding new features to make your visit and shopping experience the best it possibly can be. Woodcraft strives to have a user-friendly website that is informative and easy to navigate to efficiently meet your sport riding needs. Whether you are checking us out for the first time or a repeat customer we welcome your feedback. Our experienced staff is ready to answer all your questions so feel free to contact us anytime by email or telephone.
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Cheap hotels near Place de l'Opera in Paris, France
The Place de l'Opéra is one of Paris' most prominent squares, its centerpiece the city's gorgeous Beaux Arts Opéra Garnier. An architectural marvel, replete with gilded ceilings, bejeweled chandeliers and sculptures, the opera house was designed during Napoleon III's reign and took 15 years to construct.
From Place de l'Opéra, it's easy to get to most Paris' central sights. Place Vendôme is just a short walk away and it's about a 15-minute walk to the Jardins des Tuileries and a bit further to the Louvre. The shops along the Grands Boulevards (Boulevard Haussmann, Rue la Fayette) are just a quick walk northeast of Place de l'Opéra.
The square is central to getting around the city, as the "Opéra" Metro station serves three lines (3, 7, 8) with connections to many more. The city's Roissybus leaves from the square regularly for Charles de Gaulle airport.
Hotels near Place de l'Opera: We've come to love the hotels in the area around the Place de l'Opéra. (We used to find it a bit too busy.) Budget hotel options abound in nearly every direction, with many favorite cheap sleeps a bit south near the Louvre.
Hotels get even more affordable if you head in the direction of the Grands Boulevards, and even cheaper if you continue north toward Montmartre and Place Pigalle. The further you go north, of course, the less central you'll sleep (although the area is well-served by the Metro).
Check Rates for hotels near Place de l'Opera, ParisChecking Rates for hotels near Place de l'Opera, ParisNo availability
An error has occurred but we're onto it. In the meantime, try a search using other dates.
Ascot Opera
starAddress 2, rue Monsigny (Near the Louvre)
Located two minutes from the Palais Royal (and another few minutes to the Louvre), the Ascot Opera is a cozy, three-star hotel with some flashes of style.
Address 20, Rue Jean Jacques Rousseau (Near the Louvre)
The BVJ is a no-nonsense youth hostel with a strict 18-35 age limit, located two blocks from the Louvre.
Hotel Andre Gill
starAddress 4 Rue Andre Gill,Paris 18eme (Montmartre)
We were really pleased to happen upon the two-star Hotel Andre Gill, a quiet hotel that packs in budget-minded travelers, offering quality, clean rooms at very low rates for Paris.
Hotel Chopin
starAddress 10 Boulevard Montmartre (Grands Boulevards)
We were captivated by the Hotel Chopin. Located inside a 19th-century shopping arcade, the two-star hotel boasts a setting that's sure to make romantics swoon.
No online booking
Address 25 Rue du Bouloi (Near the Louvre)
Located two blocks north of the Louvre, the two-star Hotel Crayon is a bright new boutique hotel that offers renocated room, each with their own bright color scheme.
Check Rates for Checking Rates for No availability
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I was chomping down on some pork spare ribs for dinner tonight when I got to looking at the bones and wondering, hmm, can I eat this? I know that early humans are suspected to have benefited greatly from the consumption of marrow and I'm pretty sure I've seen a few modern Paleos mention marrow consumption.
So I have a few questions...
- Is the bone marrow of any animal always safe to consume (assuming that the attached meat is stored & cooked in a manner suitable for consumption)? Is there any time that I shouldn't crack a bone open and have at the marrow?
- What are the nutritional benefits of consuming marrow?
- Are there any benefits to consuming the hard outer bone shell? These can be flakey with some bones and thus reasonably edible. I wouldn't have had any difficulty consuming much of the shell of the spare rib bones, for example.
- Cartilage doesn't seem particularly edible or enjoyable to consume, am I correct?


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Matching 1 Tags
A Plea to My Shepherds
... I would exhort these, my fellow conservative evangelical shepherds and thinkers, to set aside all reticence and fear, emerge from anonymity, and storm the forum of discourse, engaging this most pressing matter with vigor, equanimity, and humility. In doing so, know upfront that there will be few handrails to guide; you will not be building upon an extensive precedence of published conservative thought.
Series: Harmonizing Science, Ethics, and Praxis
In this three-part series, Cal DeWitt offers insights and examples of why science and ethics must work together to help us make informed, practical decisions within our society. DeWitt's science-ethics-praxis model provides a framework by which we can live more effectively as God's stewards.
Katharine Hayhoe: Evangelical Christian, Climate Scientist
As an Evangelical and a scientist, Katharine Hayhoe is already a member of a rare breed. As a climate change researcher who is also married to an evangelical Christian pastor, she is nearly one of a kind.
Series: Asa Gray and Charles Darwin Discuss Evolution and Design
Many Christians believe that they face a painful choice-- either life was designed by God or it is an evolutionary product of natural selection. Charles Darwin himself believed in this dichotomy, and people ever since have felt the need to "choose sides". However, looking back at history, we find that one of Darwin's chief scientific colleagues, Asa Gray, did not share this perspective. In this three-part essay, part 1 charts the relationship of Asa Gray and Charles Darwin. Part 2 describes Darwin's struggle with the problem of natural evil and design in nature, and part 3 explores how Asa Gray was able to embrace evolution without rejecting the idea of design.
David Lack and Darwin's Finches
Considering the immense popularity of "Darwin's finches", it is quite surprising to learn that Charles Darwin himself had very little to say about them. In fact, it was actually David Lack, one century later, who conducted the critical research that immortalized the finches in biology textbooks and popular lore.
Gracious Dialogue
Our desire to engage in gracious dialogue with fellow believers who reject biological evolution has been receiving increased attention in both the Christian and secular press. More importantly, we are being joined in this reconciling project by our brothers and sisters in Christ who have often been defined primarily as our "opponents".
Naming 'the God Particle'
The discovery of the Higgs boson would certainly be a breakthrough for particle physics and cosmology, but would such a finding also radically redefine theology's understanding of God or challenge the existence of such a deity? Is there actually any theological or religious significance in Higgs physics at all?
What is Scientism?
Scientism is a rather strange word, but for reasons that we shall see, a useful one. Though this term has been coined rather recently, it is associated with many other "isms" with long and turbulent histories: materialism, naturalism, reductionism, empiricism, and positivism.
Series: A Quest for God
In this five part series, two young men, Josh and Aron, engage each other through e-mail letters. Their conversation oscillates between the seemingly suspicious elements of God and the gospel (raised by Josh) as well as responses that offer meaningful insight into these questions (answered by Aron). Ideas such as prayer, judgment, and the concealed nature of God are among the many points in this truth-seeking exchange.
Mitochondrial Eve, Y-Chromosome Adam, and Reasons to Believe
When presented with the evidence for human population sizes over our evolutionary history, a common point of confusion for evangelicals is how this evidence fits with Mitochondrial Eve. How can we all come from one woman (and one man) but also come from a large population of 10,000 individuals?
Series: From ID to BioLogos
In this series, Dennis Venema describes his personal journey that took him away from the Intelligent Design arguments toward the evolutionary creation worldview. Through careful and honest research, he discovered ID scientific reasoning to be analogy-based, in sharp contrast to evolutionary science, which was supported by concrete data. After accepting this view, God's presence ever strengthened him as he explored the compatibility between the Bible and God's creative mechanism.
The (Lack Of) Conflict Between Science and Religion in College Students
Media-hungry atheist, creationist and religious fundamentalist provocateurs have dominated the science and religion narrative for the past decade. A recently published large-scale survey of college students, however, finds that the call to arms has fallen on deaf ears.
Series: Francis Collins and Karl Giberson Interview
In this six part series, Karl Giberson discusses evolution with BioLogos founder Francis Collins as it relates to the scientific community and the church. Their conversation addresses Collins' scientific perspectives, his Christian faith, and the abundant evidence for evolution. Throughout, the two critique various unscientific approaches to evolution such as Young Earth Creationism and Intelligent Design. Overall, they both express the deep need for the Church in America to accept evolution as a valuable, true theory as well as to cultivate a richer understanding of the Bible among the people.
Series: Recovering the Doctrine of Creation: A Theological View of Science
Robert C. Bishop explains that many believe two things about creation: that the universe was created out of nothing by God and that he accomplished this in six days. This overly simplistic view does not do the robust Doctrine of Creation (DoC) justice, and it unnecessarily hinders much of the dialogue between evolution and Christianity. Bishop "recovers" the DoC by exploring the limitations of creation, God's sovereignty in the process, God's Trinitarian activity and ongoing purpose for his creatures, and the salvation of creation in space and time.
Stochastic Grace
I was raised in a household of atheists. My parents were card-carrying members of the American Communist Party, and therefore the atheism in my household was quite close to the militant anti-theism of the so-called "new atheists".
Series: Miracles and Science
In this five section series, Ard Louis explores the relationship between science and miracles. He indicates the self-imposed limitations of science to discover knowledge while warning against the God-of-the-Gaps explanations. Then, he explains the two types of miracles seen in Scripture: those that are divine timing and those that are violations of the natural. Overall, God sustains natural processes, but, as the master composer, he has the ability to perform miracles as well.
The Benefit of Doubt
But like a church bell on a clear winter night, it is in the crisp darkness of doubt that God's voice carries farther and more clearly. St. John's great insight is that this dark night is a special sign of God's presence, where our false sense of comfort is being stripped away and we are left naked before God and asked simply to trust.
What Are We to Make of Adam and Eve?
There are those who would say that Adam and Eve designate specific historical figures. That makes some sense, acknowledges theologian Alister McGrath, but it makes even more sense to say that Adam and Eve are figures that encapsulate the human race as a whole.
Evolution: What We Know and What We Don't
In this video conversation, Jeff Schloss makes the observation that when we use the term "evolution", it is not always exactly clear what we are actually discussing unless we denote the intended usage.
Scripture vs. the Facts? Working through a Crisis of Understanding
I'm a conservative evangelical. When I became a Christian fourteen years ago, I not only embraced profound new spiritual perspectives, but inherited a host of new scientific views: the earth was young, macro-evolution was false, and to affirm the contrary was to discredit the Bible and even the Gospel.
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Liberty Sandal
With its mix of mint-colored matelassé and metallic leather, our Liberty Sandal makes a statement — from the ground up. A sexy strappy design only adds to its wow factor. Wear it with knee-skimming dresses or skirts and prepare to let this beauty steal the spotlight.
Style Number: 51128312
Style Number: 51128312
Mirror metallic leather.
Matelasse fabric detail.
Roller buckle closure at ankle.
4.5" (115mm) heel.


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Saturday, May 18, 2013
Electric Daisy Carnival New York - May 18 Day 2, NYC
37.7 Miles from you (update)
Sunday, May 19, 2013
Sunday, May 19, 2013
Sunday, May 19, 2013
Justin Martin: Shoreline Ampitheater
@ Shoreline Ampitheater, Mountain View
32.1 Miles from you (update)
Saturday, May 25, 2013
Red Bull Music Academy presents 12 Years Of DFA Records
37.7 Miles from you (update)
Saturday, May 25, 2013
EARS WIDE OPEN feat. Claptone and Steve Huerta
@ Monarch, San Francisco
0.7 Miles from you (update)
115 Attending
Tuesday, May 28, 2013
Red Bull Music Academy presents Kunst als Klang Pt. 1
37.7 Miles from you (update)
Tuesday, May 28, 2013
Red Bull Music Academy presents UNOversal Dancehall
37.7 Miles from you (update)
Waifs & Strays (UK), Atish, Galen & Dax Lee
published 05/10/2013 14:22:53
Night Moves w/ Lazaro Casanova at Monarch
published 05/08/2013 21:55:29
Ms White 3 Feat: Vin Sol and Matrixxman
published 05/08/2013 13:45:19
Justin Martin: Shoreline Ampitheater
published 05/03/2013 13:40:08
J.Phlip: Mezzanine
published 05/03/2013 13:38:52
J.Phlip: Harlot
published 05/03/2013 13:37:35
J.Phlip: Shoreline Ampitheater
published 05/03/2013 13:37:27
Harvard Bass: Vessel
published 05/03/2013 13:36:20
Butch: Vessel
published 05/03/2013 13:20:47
[a]pendics.shuffle: Monarch
published 05/03/2013 13:19:17
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Planning Permissions and the Localism Act
19 Jun 11 - 19 Jun 12
The Localism Act represents the first major legislative change to embody the Coalition Government's localism principles.
Pugin bicentenary celebrations
1 Mar 12 - 1 Dec 12
Exhibition to celebrate Pugin Bicentenary
British Design 1948 - 2012: Innovation in a Modern Age
31 Mar 12 - 12 Aug 12
To coincide with the 2012 Olympics, this exhibition will showcase 60 years of British creative talent. It will document the transformation of design in Britain since the post-war 'Austerity Games' of 1948. Drawing on the V&A's unrivalled collections, the exhibition will include product design, fashion and textiles, furniture, ceramics and glass, theatre design, graphics, photography, architecture, fine art and sculpture, and will examine concepts of tradition and modernity, subversion and innovation.
Architect in the House 2012
16 Apr 12 - 11 Jul 12
Take part in Architect in the House 2012
Liverpool City Tours
5 May 12 - 31 Oct 12
Liverpool City Tours will tell the story of Liverpool's past, present and future. LCT are walks run by the Royal Institute of British Architects
Quadrant 3 Tour
28 May 12 - 28 May 12
Quadrant 3 is a remarkable new mixed-use development – once the Regent Palace Hotel Block - and is now a key element of the Crown Estate's regeneration of the southern end of Regent Street.
The 'ABC' of the new JCT
29 May 12 - 29 May 12
The new JCT 2011 contracts, reflecting the changes to the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996 introduced by the equally inelegantly named local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, are the topic for this practical and informative seminar.
BIM: compete or collaborate?
This session will challenge existing concepts of BIM. The landscape surrounding BIM will be explored to examine other factors that might contribute to cooperative ways of working.
BIM Workshop Programme
30 May 12 - 31 May 12
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JCT - Minor Works Building Contracts 2011 (MW & MWD)
30 May 12 - 30 May 12
CPD 2012 Extras event on JCT Minor Works 2011 in Manchester on 30 May 2012.
What will the NPPF mean for you?
The Government's much heralded National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF) has been launched and is effective immediately. In the third RIBA South West Looking Forward Architecture Forum for 2012, Daniel Weaver of Pegasus Planning, Bristol outlines what the NPPF could mean for you, your clients, and your engagement with local authorities.
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The 2013 Kentucky Farm Bureau (KFB) "Farmer of the Year" application process is now open, and the organization is seeking the Commonwealth's finest nominees for this prestigious award.
Kentucky State University and the Kentucky Cooperative Extension Service will host an aquaculture field day and workshop from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. EDT May 16 at the KSU Center for Sustainability of Farms and Families. Lunch will be provided.
The University of Kentucky Wheat Science Group will discuss important and timely wheat production topics during their annual field day Tuesday, May 14 at the UK Research Farm in Princeton.
60 years ago May 1, 1953 Slated for blacktopping The State Highway Department is staking the St. Rose Road this week in preparation for the application of a blacktop surface extending a distance of 9.3 miles from the city limits of Lebanon to a junction with Hwy. 152 near St. Rose. The contract for the job is held by the Carey Construction Company of Lexington, which intends to send a crew here shortly.
45 years ago May 2, 1968 Arrives in Vietnam
Women's Day Sherman Chapel A.M.E. Zion Church will be having a Women's Day starting at 11 a.m. Saturday, May 11 at the church located on the corner of Chandler/Proctor Knott Ave. Guest speakers will be Rev. Jacqueline King from Stoner Memorial in Louisville and Minister Pamela Buford of Fannie Chapel in Campbellsville.
Musical Tucker Chapel Church will be having a musical, The Heavenly Harmonizers of Lexington, at 4 p.m. Sunday, May 26.


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9 Markets Google Wants To Rule
As Google chairman Eric Schmidt prepares to face a Senate panel on antitrust issues, take a look at 9 key markets where Google seeks mastery.
Start The Discussion | Thomas Claburn | September 20, 2011 12:20 PM
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