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I just bought a 1974-built house with aluminum wiring and a 150A Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel [ why did I buy it? location, location, location ]. I need to re-wire the house, replace the panel with a 200A Cutler-Hammer in a better location, but I need to do it on a budget, and I also need to simultaneously live in the house - I can live with partial power, but I have my limits - thankfully, I live alone, so I have nobody to worry about but myself . My background: Software engineer with some EE education; handy with electricity and electrical test gear, comfortable around a service panel, but not an electrician; handy with power tools; able to read code docs (though sifting out the non-residential stuff gets tiresome). So, I'm confident about doing all but the service entrance and the actual cutover of the service to the new panel. Engineer that I am, I came up with the following 10-step plan to carry out this live-in rewire job. Given the constraints of my day job, I'm allocating 120 man-hours and six calendar weeks for this effort. After reading the plan, please comment on: 1) Is there anything that I didn't think through? 2) How can this plan be improved for speed and efficiency while not compromising safety or more living convenience than is alreay being sacrificed? Thanks much! ---------- THE 10-STEP LIVE-IN ALUMINUM-TO-COPPER HOUSE REWIRE PLAN: 1. Trace all circuits house-wide with a fox-hound circuit tracer and produce a correct and complete circuit map from panel to end of all branches. 2. Assess whether existing circuit routes are appropriate and up to 2013 code, and adjust where necessary; also determine whether new dedicated branch circuits are required or advisable. All multiline shared-neutral branch circuits will be replaced with dedicated-neutral circuits. The result will be a new circuit map. 3. Estimate total cost of components (and electrician labor used in 7) and pull permit based on that cost estimate and new circuit map and plan. 4. For each branch circuit (in order of least-used to most-used, lowest-amp-rated to highest-amp-rated): A. Turn off breaker at panel B. For each section of branch circuit (in order of furthest from panel to nearest to panel) [ SEE NOTE 1 ] 1) Precisely cut away sufficient wallboard necessary to expose section of wire and all cable staples / fasteners. Save sections if possible. 2) Verify that no current is present on the wire at the terminating end of the branch, and at the adjacent outlet. 3) Disconnect wire from all outlets and switches the wire is connected to. 4) Remove far-end outlet [ and switch ]. At this point, the adjacent connected outlet is terminating the branch circuit. 5) Pull cable staples and pull out disconnected section of aluminum wire. 6) Replace outlet box and switch box if required and/or advisable. 7) Rough-in feed new section of copper wire of same (or thicker if required) AWG, either in existing or newly determined path (based on assessment in 2.) . Feed and staple to 2013 code. C. At the last outlet before the panel [ SEE NOTE 3 ] [ Option 1 - expensive ] Remove last section of aluminum wire between panel and first outlet, feed new copper wire , and install a new FPE breaker [ Option 2 - inexpensive ] Retain last section of aluminum wire on the panel until cutover to new panel, using a UL-listed AlumiConn Al/Cu coupler to couple last section of aluminum to new copper. D. Install new outlets / switches at each section of branch circuit. In the box(es), label all wires for easy tracing per the new circuit map. E. Perform continuity and grounding tests on all sections of the branch circuit. F. Re-fit, but do not permanently repair, wallboard cutaway, allowing for instant removal and access to new cables and boxes for inspection [ SEE NOTE 2 ] G. Turn on the breaker, resulting in a safely functioning branch circuit. 5. Mount new panel at desired location, as close to meter as possible. 6. Rough-in new copper from new panel location to first outlet of each branch circuit per the new circuit map established in 2) 7. Bring in an electrician to : A. Do a dry-run inspection of all rewired branch circuits [ SEE NOTE 4 ] B. Cutover all new branch circuits from new panel to first outlet of each branch circuit. C. Install new 200A service drop and cutover to meter. 8. Remove and discard abandoned FPE panel, and if Step 4.C Option 2 is selected, extract remaining aluminum wiring. 9. Schedule and conduct inspection, make necessary changes until approved. 10. Repair all cutaway wallboarding. 11. Enjoy the safety and versatility of an approved, all-copper-wired home! :-) NOTE 1: If end-of-day or other stopping point is reached after step 4.B.4) and before return to step 4.B.1) , the remaining connected segments of the branch circuit should be in a sufficiently safe condition to where , if necessary, the breaker can be turned back on and the remaining legs of the branch circuit safely returned to service. NOTE 2: It is hoped that at the end of each iteration of Step 4, individual inspections will not be required as long as and cables / boxes remain accessible. NOTE 3: Step 4.C : Which of the options listed makes more sense, given that I have a FPE panel? Keep in mind that either option is a short-term connection ( 1 month max ) pending cutover to new panel. NOTE 4: Alternatively, this might also be done periodically after each iteration of Step 4.This message has been edited. Last edited by: GottaDIYIt, | |||
1. Here's a big one that will save you loads of time (but will cost you more money): Check with your code department first. Most areas with code departments will only issue an electrical permit for a project of this scale to a licensed electrician. To put it into perspective, I am a licensed general contractor and have been since the 80's. I am not a licensed electrician. I could not do your rewiring project - it takes a licensed electrician. No electrician = no permit. No permit = no insurance coverage in the event of a fire or other problem. In short, if your area requires an electrician to do this, then you'll have to hire one. 2. No matter if you do it or you have an electrician forget this disconnect/reconnect/disconnect/reconnect plan. There is no need for all the extra work to remove the old wire - all it's good for is scrap and certainly not worth all the time, effort and destroyed walls to try to pull it out. So keep your entire system up and running, install your new service panel and run all your new copper to all locations. Then the only step left is to remove the old wire from each individual box and install the ends of the new wire in the same. You can probably get inspected right before you make this final switchover. Once you start the switch use extension cords to power essential 115v circuits (with the cords powered from your existing main box). The 220 to the stove will be wired to a new outlet anyway, so keep the old one intact until the final switchover. That just leaves a couple of HD runs like heat/air and water heat where the new lines will pass inspection without being wired into the final connection - keep these units on the old power until you are ready to feed power through the new main. 3. Do not discount the difficulty that is involved with all the wall repair. Do all your wall demo up front first. Don't be tempted to make many as small as possible cutouts - a huge waste of time with so many patches that your finished walls will look like crap. Instead, cut out large sections of wallboard with two things in mind: 1. Give yourself enough removed so that you can run all your new wires to each location. 2. Cut out the wallboard in such a way that it makes sense for reinstalling new. This means in most cases removing the lower 4' of one side of each wall. You may be thinking that that's a lot of new drywall (and it is) but it will save you huge amounts of work during the wiring process, will allow the inspector to see all the he needs to see and will make for a much easier and better looking wall when you are done. Don't even consider saving any old drywall pieces - throw them away and save yourself a lot of trouble. All of your plan really hinges on the code requirements in your area though. Check that first as your participation may be limited to watching the progress and writing some checks. Jaybee | ||||
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. We're talking about an unincorporated area near Portland, OR - I have a co-worker who re-wired his own home in an incorporated suburb nearby, having an electrician do the panel cutover. He worked directly with the inspector who he said was actually quite helpful and cooperative in ensuring that quality and compliant work was done. I'll have to ask him his permit method, but I could imagine that he had the cutover electrician pull the permit, who then entrusted him to run the cable and outlets. I'll quiz him more to find out for sure and follow up here. In any event, I would only hire an electrician willing to allow a mostly DIY effort, her role being merely advisory up to the new panel and active at the new panel and beyond. I hear you on taking out sufficiently large chunks of drywall for ease of wiring and inspection. I'm not as concerned about the look of the repairs as you are - drywall repair is something I'm good at - how good it looks is all a matter of attention to detail :-) I understand the rationale for not pulling out the abandoned aluminum, but I really don't want it there if it doesn't need to be ; moreover, I want to use the existing run paths where possible. Anyhoo , more homework to do .. Thanks again :-) | ||||
It's a big job. Good luck. Jaybee | ||||
Thanks. I know it's a big job. That's why I want to go in eyes wide open and have a solid plan. BTW, it looks like my state law says as long as it's residential or farm property, and I own it, and I'm not selling, renting, or leasing it, I'm good ... http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/479.540 My county's electrical permit app has a declaration to sign stating that I qualify under that statute. ..kinda makes me sad for would-be DIY-ers in TN ... borrowing from the Beastie Boys, "you gotta fight .. [boom][boom] ... for your right ... [boom] ... to DIY! ... LOL Again, thanks for lending an ear! | ||||
In your area. I believe if you are 'the owner'. You 'can perform the work'. Just like I can. But I am in MN. (you just said this is possible ^ ) You just saved a few thousand dollars right here ^ ) You sound very well qualified to do this job, more than most DIY peoples. So far I can only come up with some reminder code issues you should comply with such as wiring tacks, conduit grounding, metal box grounding, fixture grounding if required, ceiling fan light box supports, no wire crowding, neutral at every switch, 6 inches of wire sticking out of box (measured from back of box), twisting wires with linesman pliers prior to wingnut, 1 Neutral under each load center screw, Grounds of same gauge wire can be combined under 1 screw to panel allowance of usually 2 or 3 "read panel instructions for this max ground wire number per screw", Sub panels get grounded to main panel and main panel should be grounded to your water main or ground rod but i like water main better. Multi-Branch Circuits which share a neutral cannot be on same phase\space but must be side by side (the side of 2 phases) with handle tie so both will turn off if one turns off. A 'Double Pole' breaker in the width-size and amp rating is required if you cannot find handle ties. These are all very basic but overlooked a lot. Multibranch circuits are usually for Dishwasher plus Garbage disposal combined on one 14-3,15a and Furnace plus WaterHeater-ERV outlet which is also 14-3, 15a. I assume you know how (but wanted to explain) to MBC jump the above and below 2 phase sides so it only takes 15a on black-wire from one phase and 15a on red wire from other phase above or below it. If you are following 2011 NEC. You will be fine. I haven't heard of 2013 NEC yet but i will look into it and edit this paragraph. What killed me on cost of my remodel is the required AFI breakers at 37.00 each and tamper resistant gfi outlets aren't cheap either. Sub-panel was 60 bucks not bad, 250ft coils of Romex were about 80 dollars each and i needed 3 but you will need more in your project. A coil wheel is nice to have when running wire in project your size. This would be my 1st tool investment to save tons of time pre-shaping your wire as you remove from coil. Only use the same brand of breaker as the Load Center it goes into. Warranty will mention this. I only use G.E panels myself so i don't have any information regarding CH but i hear they are just as good if not better This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder, | ||||
JB, Excellent info! Exactly the kind of input I'm looking for to make for the best possible plan. I said 2013 just in case things change by the time I start work in January. I have a PDF copy of the 2011 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code, but if a new one is not issued in January, I assume 2011 will still be the controlling document. I asked the inspector of the house what he thought the "gold standard" of panels was - he immediately replied Cutler Hammer. The breakers that HomeDepot stocks these days seem to bear that out - primarily CH and GE - they stock Siemens as well which are supposedly compatible with Westinghouse/Bryant, and some very-expensive FPE-compatibles. Cheers!This message has been edited. Last edited by: GottaDIYIt, | ||||
Westinghouse/Bryant sold their line to Cutler-Hammer when Westinghouse broke up (well, technically they sold all business lines when they bought CBS) and that is known as the "BR" series. the "CR" series was the legacy Cutler panel system. they are NOT compatible or interchangeable. I would use one of two paths on the new panel/service... either do everything in parallel, new wiring to all devices and masts etc, and then cut it over all at once and pull out the old stuff... or cut circuits that don't need rewiring over to the new panel, dropping them temporarily, and energize everything again at once on the new panel. don't even think about adding more stuff to that FPE arcwelder, even temporarily... single breakers run around $45 and doubles $65-70, and you will only need them for a short time. dump that gnarly hog completely. sig: if this is a new economy, how come they still want my old-fashioned money? | ||||
Naming the benchmark of panels is truly a personal preference. But having posted that, Cutler-Hammer while a respected name, takes a back seat to Square D Homeline & QO panels in these parts. You may want to Google Cutler-Hammer CR panels because a soft recall of that product line. "Why isn't everyday Earth Day ?" | ||||
only thing I found on CRs was loose breaker tu buss bolts on the main breaker. this is something the electrician should have checked on installation. checking the torque on all connections carrying current is a basic part of the job, and the first thing that a master did when we paid for a panel inspection after buying our house. (inspection needed, was an FPE, and the wife was not springing for a new entrance installation. good news: tensions up to snuff. bad news: 6 breakers turned up as famous FPE no-trips. two more failed later, the water heater breaker was actually burned.) sig: if this is a new economy, how come they still want my old-fashioned money? | ||||
On another board I read of problems with CR breaker type boards and if you contact the man they are supplying new panels and breakers. Can't recall the board az I was searching for a neutral lug to fit a 25 year old CR panel. Calling the 800 # did not help as they told me the part was obsolete and no longer available. And that was not a very big help to me at all. I would install a C_H panel in a heart beat though. "Why isn't everyday Earth Day ?" | ||||
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From the moment the ship docked in Le Havre in the fall of 1948 and Julia watched the well-muscled stevedores unloading the cargo to the first perfectly soigne meal that she and her husband, Paul, savored in Rouen en route to Paris, where he was to work for the USIS, Julia had an awakening that changed her life. Soon this tall, outspoken gal from Pasadena, California, who didn't speak a word of French and knew nothing about the country, was steeped in the language, chatting with purveyors in the local markets, and enrolled in the Cordon Bleu.
After managing to get her degree despite the machinations of the disagreeable directrice of the school, Julia started teaching cooking classes herself, then teamed up with two fellow gourmettes, Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle, to help them with a book they were trying to write on French cooking for Americans. Throwing herself heart and soul into making it a unique and thorough teaching book, only to suffer several rounds of painful rejection, is part of the behind-the-scenes drama that Julia reveals with her inimitable gusto and disarming honesty.
This memoir is laced with wonderful stories about the French character, particularly in the world of food, and the way of life that Julia embraced so wholeheartedly. Above all, she reveals the kind of spirit and determination, the sheer love of cooking, and the drive to share that with her fellow Americans that made her the extraordinary success she became.
Le voici. Et bon appetit!
©2006 Alex Prud'Homme; (P)2006 Books on Tape
"This is a valuable record of gorgeous meals in bygone Parisian restaurants, and the secret arts of a culinary genius." (Publishers Weekly)
"Julia deserves a better narrator"
I was really hoping the other reviewers were being hypercritical... alas, this is not the case, and I am truly flummoxed as to why a book by and about a woman who loved the French culture, language and experience so much was assigned such a narrator. To be fair, although the narrator wisely does not attempt to impersonate Julia's iconic trill, she brings a lot of warmth and personality to Julia's words (in English). She gives the French accent a good go, but hardly with a professional's required attention to detail in handling such beloved material. It is indeed jarring, detracting and disappointing to anyone with even a rudimentary experience of the French language.
A wonderful book, however, and aside from the most cringing mangling of the language of Moliere, enjoyed it tremendously. Any other reader would have earned this 5 stars.
I almost didn't buy this unabridged version of My LIfe in France because of all the negative comments in the reviews about the the narrator's horrible French pronunciation - said to be too distracting. Well that is just foolishness and perhaps down right snobbishness as well - Ms. Farr does a serviceable job with the French pronunciation and it's certainly not distracting. The book so far is an absolute delight and I highly recommend it. Ms. Greenberg who narrates the Abridged version sounds very good as well and may indeed do better with the French but I did not want to miss a word of Julia's fascinating and wonderful life story. Enjoy!
"What a pleasure!"
I listened to this book on a trip through Avignon and Paris and it was wonderful. What an addition to our travels by TGV south from Paris. The reader was a delight and more than up to the challenges of the french language and all the culinary terms. Julia's take on the world a breath of fresh air. I was sorry when the book came to and end. However, to compensate I have pulled out my dog-eared copies of "mastering the art" and jumped back into cooking a la Julia! Brava Audible!
"Content 5; Narration 3"
This book is a wonderful connection to a fascinating woman and her very exciting, rich life. I learned to cook with Volume 1 and now I feel like I am learning about a friend.
I heartily encourage others to 'read' it.
I agree with those who criticize the narration: while it would be difficult to capture Julia's iconic voice, it absolutely does matter how words are pronounced. I am constantly jarred out of the story by words in French (and even English!) that are mispronounced.
I believe someone who is paid to read aloud should spend some time researching how words are pronounced before beginning the task.
Snobbish? I don't think so. Just asking for competence.
"Wonderful story, worth listening to but..."
...as mentioned in other reviews, and I almost feel sorry for the narrator, she is not a French speaker, but tries. I cringed most at ca y'est pronounced as "ca y'esT". Yikes. It's still worth it, though. And other than the French, she's actually quite pleasant. The story is second to none if you love Julia Child. I'm grateful she lived long enough to finish the project. It's a gem.
This book is as charming as Julia herself. Her voice comes through clearly, and although she was never unkind, she did not shy away from expressing her frustrations with certain people and situations in her life. It's an account of how her interest in food and cooking developed, and how she came to take the path she took. She and Paul saved letters, so the book is rich with authentic detail about the events of their lives. My only regret is that now that I've finished it, I can never come to it again to listen for the first time. It made me feel much closer to a woman I've never met, but miss terribly.
"Excellent book; narrator's French is weak"
I thoroughly enjoyed this book. As a francophile, accompanying Julia as she falls in love with France and the French (even with all of the idiosyncrasies) is a delightful ride. My only regret about this audiobook is the narrator's proficiency in French. Julia uses French words throughout the book--adding quite a bit of flavor to her writing (no pun intended)--but the narrator gets the pronunciation wrong maybe 10 percent of the time, and not-so-great maybe 60 percent of the time. Kind of unimpressive considering the context. But I'd definitely recommend this book.
"Great book, needs a better narrator"
Disappointing that the narrator can't quite transmit the essence of Julia's words. Her French is lacking, which distracts from the story.
Otherwise, a recommended book for any fans of Julia.
A published novelist and technical writer, who lives in Northern California with a cranky but loveable parrot and lots of books.
"A lovely memoir"
This audiobook was a wonderful escape from my dreary December into the bright, lively world of post-war France.
Julia Child writes with vivid and loving detail of her years in Paris and Marseilles with her beloved husband, chronicling her education as a cook, her friendships, the writing of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking," and her many adventures in the shops, markets, and kitchens of Paris. Delightful!
"Well narrated"
OK, the reader's French isn't perfect, but if you know some French you can tell what she's aiming for and if you don't ... well then who cares! More importantly, she pulls everything else off with a beautiful, lively performance.
The book conveys a nice sense of Julia Childs' personality, her experience learning to cook in a country she's crazy about, and some sense of the zeitgeist during the late forties and fifties.

subset: commoncrawl


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Louis Theroux visits school fair (From Wandsworth Guardian)
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Louis Theroux visits school fair
1:40pm Sunday 8th July 2012 in News By Alice Austin
Documentary maker and former pupil of Allfarthing School, St Ann's Crescent, Wandsworth, returned to open their summer fair.
Louis Theroux was delighted to accept the invitation to open the fair last month and brought his two children along to enjoy what the school had to offer.
In his opening speech Mr Theroux got nostalgic when recalling his school days, and commented on how much he enjoyed his time there. He also said he was pleased that the school had retained the friendly and inclusive atmosphere he remembered.
Mr Theroux posed for photos with visitors and staff, while the tables were turned when two year four boys conducted a challenging interview with him for the school news bulletin.
Mike Munley, vice chairman of the school, said: "The Allfarthing Summer fair is one of the highlights of the school year. It is always crowded, and this year's theme was the Best of British. The school and ground were bedecked with Union Jacks.
"The proceeds are still being counted but PTA organisers are confident the school will benefit from a significant sum raised on the day."


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Phew, I have just completed an upgrade bonanza! I installed KDE 3.5.8, Python 2.5, Xorg 7.3 and Compiz Fusion development version. It took me close to 48 hours to get it right, much with the help from various excellent walkthroughs in this forum.
The only (?) thing that puzzles me is that some menu items seem missing in Konqueror: If I right click in a folder view I don't see the option to create a new folder or a new text document like before. The only thing I can do is to create a link, and the submenu to that option looks very strange.
Any ideas? If you did similar upgrades, please tell if your menus are the same or if they are working just fine. Could it be a KDE bug?


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Well, Happy Xmas Eve! Tomorrow is the NHL trade deadline (3PM EST) and it's usually quite the flurry but with the new salary cap, no one is quite sure what will be happening. One thing is sure. Mats Sundin (TOR) refused to waive his no-trade clause, and of the players the Leafs are rumored to have on the block, the only likely one is the massively overrated and overpaid, Bryan McCabe (D). Apparently Peter Forsberg (2003 MVP) is coming back to join the Avalanche,. Marion Hossa is the one superstar likely to be moved, and he could be a real force in the playoffs for his new team. Chris Chelios thinks that Fedorov could return to Detroit, and be a bargain in doing so. Should be an interesting day tomorrow! :D
I can definitely see Fedorov coming back as Columbus will try to get something for him before he leaves as an unrestricted FA after year's over. Hossa is a longshot because Atlanta will demand a lot and I just don't see Holland giving up too much. But it will be a fun day tomorrow.
I'm looking forward to it. I'm on vacation this week, so I should be able to catch most of the coverage (That is, as long as my daughter isn't watching Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Handy Manny, Tigger & Pooh or Franny's Feet). The habs have been reportedly interested in bringing Hossa in. That would be AWESOME as long as we didn't have to give up too much for him and as long as Gainey is able to sign him to a long term deal. He's a UFA after this season and his price as a rental player would be too high.
Stars reaching for Richards; Habs zero in on Hossa - NHL Experts Blog - NHL - Yahoo! Sports Stars reaching for Richards; Habs zero in on Hossa
The Habs traded their starting goalie, Cristobal Huet to the Caps for a 2nd round pick. TSN : NHL TRADE DEADLINE - Canada's Sports Leader While Huet was scheduled to be an UFA after this season and is 32 years old, this weakens the team right now, so I hope Gainey has other plans in mind. I'm surprised that all they got was a 2nd rounder for him.
The Blackhawks have acquired forward Andrew Ladd from the Carolina Hurricanes in exchange for forward Tuomo Ruutu.
This is a great deal for Dallas. They get Richards and Holmqvist for Mike Smith, Jeff Halpern and Jussi Jokinen TSN : NHL - Canada's Sports Leader
Here're the details on Richards trade: Tampa sends Richards and G Holmqvist to Dallas for G Smith, C Halpern, and F Jussi Jokinen.
The Sens picked up former Wing Martin Lapointe for a 6th round pick. I like this move for Ottawa. They're able to add some grit for only the price of a late 6th rounder. TSN : NHL - Canada's Sports Leader
Adam Foote has just been traded back to the Avs. No details yet on who or what is going back in return. Edit: The pick is a conditional 1st round pick based on the Avs making the playoffs this year and a second pick if the Avs are able to re-sign Foote. Wow, a first rounder for the 37 year old Foote? Plus the potential for a 2nd pick. That seems a bit steep to me.
Former (and rumoured to be soon returning) Detroit Red Wing Sergei Federov has just been traded to the Caps. TSN : NHL - Canada's Sports Leader Edit: Columbus gets D-man prospect Theo Ruth in the deal
Good thinking. They couldn't possibly know anything about hockey up there. They probably get all of their info from carrier penguins.


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Since my son made a footprint craft for Father's Day, I made a handprint one with his little sister. I just adore all the Daddy & Me handprint crafts I see and decided to make one with her. I adapted ours to suit us by changing it to a Papa & Me craft. I painted my husband's hand blue and had him make a handprint. Of course it would have been fun for her to paint his hand too, but between his work schedule and her napping there wasn't a good time to do so. It's still a precious keepsake nonetheless! The next day, I painted Baby Sister's hand pink and made a handprint on top of his- so cute! I found a free printable I Love You Daddy Poem thanks to my Pinterest addiction that I ended up retyping to say Papa instead of Daddy.
I am linking to these crafty parties!


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Last Updated : 6/19/2013 7:19:28 PM
Union Territories
Uttar Pradesh
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Centre allows Maoist-hit states to hire helicopters
New Delhi: In her heydays, her sharp olfactory senses helped nab many hardened criminals and curb narcotics smuggling in the city. With age and instincts failing her, the oldest female canine in the Delhi Police dog squad is being retired at the ripe age of 11. Bought for Rs 5,000 from a local dog breeder in 2002 when she was just seven months old, she was fondly named Anu for being the 'most friendly' canine.She will be relieved of her duties by the end of March after serving the police force for over 10 years. "She is the only dog who can roam around freely, be it the training ground or the office. Not even the senior officers mind this...she is loved by all," a police officer told IANS, requesting anonymity.The only female Doberman in the head unit of the city's dog squad in Model Town in north Delhi which has 14 more dogs - all Labradors - the veteran canine has assisted in the training of several other dogs before their induction. "Handlers took her help in training the new dogs as she was so experienced... but sadly she is not in her prime physical shape due to her age," said Constable Vidyasagar, Anu's handler.He added that an NGO would be adopting her after her retirement. According to many other handlers, Anu was the star of several dog shows when she was young and had won many awards for her intelligence and agility. While age has slowed her down, it has failed to affect the winner in her. "Recently, she won a bronze medal in the All-India Police Duty Meet competition held in Haryana," the handler added.According to Sub-Inspector Digvijay, in charge of the Model Town dog squad unit, the canines are inducted when they are eight months old and normally remain in service till they turn eight. "The dogs are very important as they help us detect explosives, seize drugs and track criminals," Digvijay said.According to Delhi Police spokesperson Rajan Bhagat, a Labrador would be replacing Anu and will be purchased from the Indian Army. "We have already written to them for purchasing two dogs," Bhagat said.At present, 59 dogs of four different breeds are in the dog squad of Delhi Police's Crime Bbranch located in Chanakyapuri and RK Puram in south Delhi, Kalyanpuri in east Delhi and Janakpuri in west Delhi, apart from the main unit in Model Town.Of the 59 dogs, 45 are Labradors, five are Dobermans, seven are Cocker Spaniels and two are German Shepherds. Most of the dogs were bought from the Indian Army's Remount Veterinary Corps based in Meerut in Uttar Pradesh.A puppy aged around eight months costs between Rs 20,000 and Rs 35,000 while an older canine trained by the army would cost around Rs 2.5 lakh, a police officer said.
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Because my flight was canceled. I called them immediately asking them if it was possible to change the booking, as we would be on the next flight, a couple of days later. I was ready to pay a penalty fee of course. Instead I received a brusque reply saying that the booking couldn't be changed, so we lost all the... More
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CLARKSBURG, W.Va. (AP) — West Virginia has seen a decline in overdoses from bath salts since a law making the drug's ingredients illegal went into effect last year.
Forty-three cases were reported in 2012, compared to 250 in 2011, said Dr. Elizabeth Scharman, director of the West Virginia Poison Control Center.
Scharman told The Exponent Telegram that the number of cases fell significantly during the last four months of the year. Thirty-one of last year's cases were reported before the end of August.
In April 2012, authorities shut down two stores in Harrison and Upshur counties that were major suppliers of bath salts in north-central West Virginia. Owner Jeffrey Paglia, pleaded guilty last November to one count of drug conspiracy and one count of structuring monetary transactions to evade reporting requirements on income from the stores. He is awaiting sentencing.
"I really feel we have put a dent in it with the enforcement aspect with the task force and patrol," Clarksburg Police Chief Marshall Goff told the newspaper. "It is something that law enforcement as a whole has been concentrating on."
"The north central region as a whole has banded together to attempt to eliminate this stuff," Goff said. "It is a combination of police on all levels, government officials and residents coming together to fight this problem."
Harrison County Sheriff Albert Marano said police are still seeing bath salts abuse in his county. But it's not as prevalent as it once was.
Despite the decline, synthetic stimulants continue to be a problem in the state. After the law went into effect, people began modifying ingredients.
"We can't identify what the active ingredients are. It will be a continuing issue to keep up with changing formulas they are coming up with," Scharman said. "There are at least five different chemical classes of psychedelic stimulants. We group them together as emerging psychoactive substances here and in surrounding states."
Del. Richard Iaquinta, D-Harrison, said he believes the law would cover most of the drugs' modifications, and it would help overcome some of the previous obstacles.
"I haven't talked to anybody that would suggest that we revisit that," he said.


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Americans United for Life (AUL) says in Amicus Curiae Brief before the U. S. Supreme Court that the Law Forces Unconstitutional "Abortion Premium Mandate" on American People
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Americans United for Life President and CEO Dr. Charmaine Yoest called the controversial healthcare law before the U.S. Supreme Court today "the largest expansion of abortion since Roe v. Wade." To combat that expansion, AUL has challenged the law on multiple fronts, including joining an amicus curiae brief in the arguments last week in United States Department of Health and Human Services v. State of Florida.
"Americans United for Life made key predictions during the healthcare debate – many of which have tragically come true," said Dr. Yoest. "But in throwing out this travesty of public policy, the U.S. Supreme Court can negate Obamacare's massive expansion of abortion." Continue reading


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Why We Support Construction of a New Animal Shelter
The current shelter is a reminder of a shameful period in Attleboro's history. A new one will help the animals and symbolize the hard work that hundreds of residents have done to make our system one of the best in Massachusetts.
We all know that the Attleboro Animal Shelter building is a "broken," dysfunctional and in some ways, dangerously outdated building—woefully sub-standard by any measure. As a matter of practicality, we need a new building. There doesn't seem to be an argument against this from any quarter.
My reason for supporting a new facility goes beyond the building of a functional facility.
When I visit our animal shelter and venture into the back room to see the homeless animals, my eyes are always drawn to the first "stall" on the right. Sixteen years ago, when I first stepped foot in this building, this was the stall that housed the next dog to die.
On my first visit, which was most unwelcomed by the staff, this particular stall was occupied by a beautiful, young and healthy Irish setter who I called Fransesca. I took her picture and offered to help find her a home. She was "euthanized" the very next day. No second chances there. I still see her face and her proud stance. There was no reason to end her life other than a lack of caring and that she might bring people there to see her.
This back room also holds memories of winter days, below freezing, with no heat for the homeless, abused and frightened animals; water buckets filled with frozen water, wet inner stalls and no bedding. There were times when longhaired dogs had ice on their fur. The pads of the dogs' feet were red and raw from the cold. This building was a soulless place of no hope and suffering. It was "the Pound"—a place where dogs went to die.
A small group of volunteers waged a very long battle to end the cruel practices within the walls of this building, and I am proud to say that we were successful. Today, our work is carried on through a new group of highly dedicated volunteers.
Today when I enter the back room where the homeless animals are housed, I feel the effects of a heating system, fresh water and food for all. The dogs have warm bedding and toys to chew on to ease their stress. The room is busy with caring people coming in and out—walking, soothing, socializing and visiting with all. I feel the compassion and humanity versus the apathy and emptiness of the past. I can look into stall No. 1 and see a bright-eyed pup who has never known a gentle touch getting ready for playtime and soon, a new home. Today, this room is just a "waiting room" until each dog moves on to his/her new life—a place of happiness and hope.
This present state of our shelter didn't happen overnight. It took many, many years and many, many residents of this city. It has been a long hard journey with a lot of blood, sweat and tears—literally. Hundreds, possibly thousands, of Attleboro residents helped this happen. I could never count the hours that people have spent caring for our animals, paying the medical costs, fostering when the building is full and holding a sick animal in their arms as he/she is euthanized when all medical care fails. The work is hard, rewarding, emotionally trying, uplifting and all-consuming. Hours beyond belief are put into fundraising for shelter costs.
I could go on and on about what needs to be done to run a successful shelter. It is un-ending, and we who care would not have it any other way.
I have visited a lot of shelters in my lifetime. I can say with certainty that you can tell a lot about the city/town by observing the level of care the homeless and vulnerable animals receive. The conditions at the Attleboro facility did not speak well for the city when I first moved here 16 to 17 years ago. To me, it will always be a shameful place in Attleboro's history.
Today, I believe that Attleboro is a different city. Many of the old ways are dying off and we are finally stepping into this century in many ways.
A new Animal Shelter is highly symbolic to me and an affirmation of all the hard, very hard, work that hundreds of residents and volunteers have put into making our shelter system one of the best in the state. It is a symbol that recognizes that the work that is done there is important. Our homeless and discarded animals no longer go to our shelter to die. Their new lives begin at our shelter. We can no longer be satisfied with the physical conditions at our shelter. It is just not who we are anymore.
That era is over.
There is a difference of opinion about what to do with the old building when our new facility is built. Some want to save it for storage and some want to tear it down. I'm OK with either option. More symbolism I guess. Tearing down the walls that hold so many horrible memories has merit. Letting the building stand can be a reminder for the years to come that this building no longer reflects the way we care for our homeless animals—a visual reminder to never let the things that happened there happen again. We are better than that.
I would like to see a plaque put on the front of our new shelter that holds just four words:
What Happens Here, Matters.
—Roxanne Houghton and Marilyn Shearer
A public hearing will take place Tuesday at 7 p.m. on the proposal for the city to seek a $1.116 million loan for a new animal shelter.
7:37 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
The current shelter is a reminder of a shamful period in Attleboro's history? Really, are you kidding me? How about before there was a shelter at all? Again, great that you volunteer and love animals but I still have the same argument. Why are we not sharing in the care for these animals? Why does Attleboro, North Attleboro and Seekonk all have to build multi-million dollar shelters at the same time? It makes no sense to any tax paying citizen with half a brain in their head. You can cry all you want about stray, unwanted dogs being put down, that's what the pound is for. We don't have a "no dog gets left behind" policy, if we did, thousands of mutts would live on Pond Street.
Gretchen Robinson
1:34 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
let's go back to the dark ages when gun lovers went to the dump to shoot stray dogs? This comment is way off base. Irrational.
Steve Hopkins
8:08 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
somewhat of an overwrought letter! I agree with Paul. Also regarding the cost...! How can it cost or need to cost that much money. You could build a very nice house of maybe 3500 sq ft for that much. Cut the granite counter tops, wainscoating, chandeliers, hardwood flooring, crown moulding, carpenting in the 'office' etc.
The old building should not be torn down - that's just wasteful - part of the 'boomers' generation and a couple of others! I'm a boomer by the way! "buy it, use it, break it, throw it away"! Don't try to fix it!!!! Just go buy another one!!!
why not have a "tri-town" shelter? of quad town- Seekonk, Rehoboth, Attle and N.Attle??? Makes economic sense. Maybe some long time volunteeers would feel "put out" by having to share with other towns? Aaaw, too bad! Atleast the animals would be well taken care of and that is the goal here, right?
Maybe a person needs to be hired to run a major fund raising campaign? A professional, run in a professional way. Much grander than curent fund raising efforts to buy pet food, and everyday items for the shelter.
Set up a shopping list such as a bride does and ask people to contribute materials to build a new shelter. Again, a million bucks is way out of line, IMHO! Outrageous!
8:56 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
Imagine the stories of infighting between the volunteer organizations of the various towns over who has control. I've yet to see a good reason as to why a regional shelter has not been looked into.
Steve Hopkins
8:20 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
Oh, I have offered , a few times, to help with the smaller, routine fundraising efforts to photograph adoptable pets for free. I would take professional portraits of each and let the shelter organization use them, for free! Some of the photoss they use do not show off the animals to their best. No Response from anyone there.
also, presented offer to take portraits at other fund raising events, at a very reasonable cost to the pet owner, and contribute most of that fee back to the shelter.
Still, no response!!! Well, perhaps there was one time "oh, we have a photographer" ! Yes, but, as on EBay, sellers are encouraged to post very good photographs to help their items sell better!
Steve Hopkins
8:24 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
here are some examples of the what I can offer to the shelter ---at no cost to them!!!
9:59 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
Steve I think it's a great service you're offering. I don't know of anyone that inquires about an animal at the shelter with no photo shown or, one that shows them cowering in a corner. I hope your generous offier is accepted.
Gretchen Robinson
8:14 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
your photos are stunning and creative. If you make an offer and one group doesn't follow up with you, go elsewhere. I agree high quality photos make a real difference and I have had conversations with shelter volunteers elsewhere about just that. Try, try again.
9:55 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
I agree, a new shelter is needed and combining them is a great idea to cut costs. Some towns are talking about combining Veteran's agents to save money. One thing I'm curious about is the cost difference to adopt from each shelter. I've adopted a cat from Seekonk, rather expensive, but that's ok, she's the best cat in the whole world! A dog from Attleboro, the cost was ok, and of course he's the best dog in the whole world! And a cat from Pawtucket another best in the whole world cat! Cost was $15.00! The volunteers at all Shelters are awesome and really care but how do they come up with the fees? Just curious. Shelter animals are the best!
Steve Hopkins
3:12 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Generally assuming that with combining towns, cost to build would be less for each individual town, and cost of services would be less. Therefore a fixed price/cost should be established to adopt a pet. Perhaps more for a dog since most are larger than cats and eat more? Any pet that required extensive pre-adoption care or re-hab might call for higher adoption cost, within some est guidelines.
still joining 'forces' makes a lot of sense for a group of small, abutting towns. Every town does not really need "their own" shelter.
10:57 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
I adopted a cat from the Attleboro shelter a year ago. It cost me $150, the staff was great. I had to provide reference and fill out more forms than it takes to purchase a gun. No complaints as I understand they want to make sure that the animals are going to good homes. Attleboro needs a new shelter, a regional shelter if properly managed would make great sense. My only cause of concern at the Attleboro shelter, when I adopted my cat I also brought in $100 worth of Purina One cat and dog food as a donation which I felt they didn't want, as they tried to give me another bag of the same with my Kitten along with all sorts of great toys, treats and food dishes etc. I didn't need any of these items as I already had them, I think it's great for someone who doesn't have these items with their new pet to help get them started. But I was taken back by the staff's failure to thank me for the donation because it was not what they were specifically looking for. I checked their web site first to make sure I was buying the appropriate food. Turned out the flavor of Purina One I purchased was not to their satisfaction. These are shelter animals hopefully on a temporary stay to a forever home, but we all can't have filet mingon even when we are not homeless. People make donations of products with good intentions only to have those items given away instead of used in the shelter.
Steve Hopkins
3:15 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Wzzzzrd - Some people think much too highly of themselves.!!!
4:38 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Steve - My point, don't ask for donations on your web site if your not going to use them as intended.
Just sayin'
11:53 am on Monday, January 14, 2013
I have to agree. I've reached out before to offer my services as a volunteer for the shelter or the dog park (I know they are separate organizations). The response? Crickets. Yet I hear and read so often lamentations of how there is so much work being done by so few people and how they need volunteers. Maybe it is just a case of dis-organization? If so, hiring a part or full time position makes sense for volunteer organization. I honestly do see a benefit in having this new and improved shelter, but the price tag makes me wince. I wonder if there is a more efficient way to spend the dollars. I remember when the city council questioned the price tag a few months ago and they were basically called animal haters. But if we could find a way to be wise with the money building the new shelter think of the money saved that can be used on other shelter resources (supplies, etc.)
Steven Scott
1:37 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I don't know about the Shelter,but all you have to do to help at the dog park is show up. You will be put to work and thanked just as I was.
Steve Hopkins
3:24 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Who is specifying what goes into the million dollar building? The volunteers or the animal control person or who ever is paid to supervise/run the shelter. Is there such a person in Attleboro.
Someone is perhaps specifying a shelter as exists in Berverly Hill or Westchester Cty in Ct.!!! Or is that NY???
first step - cut that amount in 1/2 and start paring down some more. Even a $500,000 'house' for pets seems extravagant to me. Are they asking for a complete operating room and recovery room, sleeping area and bathrooms for the workers??? Need to see lot of detail regarding the design of this proposed bldng.
12:47 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
The more I hear about the staff/volunteers the more I wonder why is a new shelter being built. Does anyone think that a new shelter will change old ways? Sounds like the volunteers want to save every animal but the staff knows what has to be done. Who would want volunteers in their way all day long at their job?
Roxanne Houghton
1:26 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
You are "barking up the wrong tree on this one" - pardon the pun. The "old" staff is long gone and has been replaced with two wonderful ACO's who support the volunteers and their humane philosophy, 100%. Times have changed, thankfully. The friction that you seem to want to create, is just not there.
12:51 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Paul volunteers are there every day including Holiday's. Cleaning cages, feeding the animals, walking the dogs being available for adotions etc.. The Shelter can't exist without the volunteers.
2:28 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
No one wants friction, just common sense, but when it comes to animal shelters, the animal loving fanatics have none. They want to call people animal killers and claim normal tax paying citizens want to slaughter every animal in town. All you voluteers, don't forget who is paying all the bills.
Steve Hopkins
3:30 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I think it is often a situation of volunteers becoming a controlling entity.
What is an ACO - Animal Care ........? Seems like a person(s) who is responsible for entire junction of the facility. In that case the volunteers would be supporting the ACO's. Right?
Chrys Swenson
1:36 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
In the 10 years I have lived in Attleboro I have adopted 2 dogs from the Attleboro Shelter and my dealings with the staff and volunteers was very pleasant. The volunteers care tremendously for all the animals and take very good care of them.
I do think it sad that you drive over the border and in Slater Park they have a beautiful shelter.
I think with frugality and common sense during the planning phase, we could have the same thing in Attleboro. It would be good to see if construction work could be donated like a Habitat for Humanity build to save costs and keep the money for the future medical care and supplies for the animals. Volunteers have been used to do work for other projects in Attleboro such as the playground at Willett school, use willing helpers again.
Steve Hopkins
3:34 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I have suggested that for this project as well as the new concession stand at AHS. Never a single response...yet anyways.!
Joyce Leven
2:00 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
There are plenty of abandon buildings in most towns that could be converted to shelters. The last thing any local town needs is one more new building when we haven't bothered to look at the existing structures.
Steve Hopkins
3:35 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Excellent idea. Have any of the volunteers considered this avenue? Has anyone else in town?
Gretchen Robinson
3:06 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
thankfully, most taxpayers and voters in Attleboro are more enlightened. They consider their tax rate but they also want to be responsible to the great need out there. In the years before all the staff and volunteers, we'd often see dogs roaming through, hungry, emaciated. And abandoned cats, ever consider what it's like to be a housecat and then be left outdoors by the side of the road to freeze in winter. Let's not be mean about this. The shelter is needed.
2:35 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Using frugality and common sense were mentioned here, that's a stretch for some, but what a great idea! People would be more than happy to donate time, materials or whatever was needed. Why not look at all building options. I believe the animal shelter in Pawtucket was built with mostly private funding.
Steve Hopkins
3:38 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
amy - It's just soooo much easier to spend someone's (our) million dollars and have a contracting firm design/build and hand over the keys!!!
they who feel that need to be placed 'on the back burner' and a reasonable group take over and get it built! or rehab an existing building.
Gretchen Robinson
2:57 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Roxanne, I support your assessment. We need a new animal shelter. Period. It's long over-due. To the naysayers and penny pinchers I say, let's be thrifty but not cheap. Whoever mentioned marble countertops. That's a slur. No one is talking about a palace. What's being proposed is a state of the art facility not something grandious.
As for all you who 'know better' than those involved in the planning, it's easy to do a whack job on the plans. But it's not going to work--this time. There is a whole cohort who are working to get this through. A new generation of people who care and are finding and using their political energy.
The longer we wait, the more it's going to cost. People looking to adopt a cat or dog go from on shelter to another. I got one of my best cats from the town of Cranston's shelter. If the shelter is substandard, they'll go somewhere else.
Steve Hopkins
3:48 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Gretchen - ooooH Please! I mentioned 'marble' among other things. Something is making up that 1 million dollars. What are those items? I can imagine what a million dollar home would have and then try to compare that to a million dollr animal shelter. That would be a very long stretch of one's imagination!!
"it's not going to work this time"??? what project has "it" worked on in the past???
Just sayin'
3:56 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I find your comment counter-productive and elitist. I see no disagreement on this forum that the shelter as it exists today is a disgrace. You're right - not everyone is involved in the planning. Therefore, we don't know what has been and what has not been considered. The shelter will be built with the community's money. The community deserves to ask questions and offer suggestions. We all want it to be the best it can be given the resources available. Why would you dismiss someone's suggestion because they were not in your clique? Pride?
3:11 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I don't think anyone here is saying an animal shelter isn't needed. Of course it is! I think there are some great ideas here! Unfortunetly, we do need to look at cost. Thats being realistic. We have lots coming up that we need to pay for and our paychecks just don't go that far anymore, so lets do the best we can with what we've have. As mentioned, the Pawtucket Animal shelter was built with private donations. What's wrong with looking at that?
3:44 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Private donations, awesome! All you animal loving volunteers start going door to door, and show your love that way. Another great idea!
Just sayin'
4:01 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I think you have some great ideas Amy! Volunteer labor, private funding in addition to or to complement public money - these are all great! I'm looking forward to hearing about the pros/cons for these ideas. Someone mentioned a regional shelter system - also a great idea! Maybe these solutions won't work for various reasons, but maybe they just might! No one will know unless the question is asked!
3:47 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Paul let us know when you get a bright idea . We'll be waiting.
5:57 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I already had one, share shelter Seekonk/ Attleboro. It's a no-brainer only this might cramp some of the volunteers style.
Richard Conti
3:48 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Efforts to begin a discussion for a regional animal shelter never got a lot of support last year when I floated the idea. No one I spoke to thought it was worth pursuing. Now Attleboro is left with no option unless Seekonk, Mansfield or North Attleboro are willing to put additions on their new shelters, Their taxpayers are no different than our taxpayers. Should we think that boarding our pets out of town would cost the same as in our own new facility?
Steve Hopkins
4:10 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
"Boarding our pets out of town" whose pets? They aren't ours (yours or mine) until we adopt them! What difference doesa town make?
Seekonk is working on getting an addition! who has spoken with them.recently. Why not? Perhaps the mayor needs to select someone to get a group of citizens from say Seekonk, Rehoboth and Attleboro together to talk this out. probably not existing volunteers who may get a bit 'touchy' about sharing!
Gretchen Robinson
5:16 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Seekonk shelter some 10-12 years ago was run by Jan, who was terrific but most cats were in a room with no window. It was a small and dingy cave. Two of my cats came from there. The work of staff and volunteers was made harder due to the tiny, old, crowded building.
If we go this route of a regional shelter that might result in another 5-10 years going by. Come On folks it's time for Attleboro to step up to the plate. You can criticize and make assumptions (volunteers getting "touchy") but that's a diversion and just dithering.
No one has made the suggestion that we highlight spaying and neutering in the community. Put on pet presentations at libraries and in schools. Let owners know about low fee spay/neuter programs.
Yes, this is a regional and national problem. But it's also a local issue that has been neglected for far too long in Attleboro.
It's time to stop kicking this can (too) down the road. At least a proposal is on the table that can work. As for funding a shelter with donations as supposedly happened in Pawtucket, many of us are tapped out in the donations department. Most charities these days are struggling to maintain their organizations and seeking money from a limited pool of local monies doesn't make sense to me. Then you have New Hope fighting with other charities. No, that won't work IMO.
It's a City problem and it's time for the City to build an animal shelter and stop procrastinating.
Gretchen Robinson
6:04 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
paul, there's lots of no-brainer thinking her (or ignorance). Rather than try to derail this, why don't you show up at City hall tomorrow night. You might find your mind changed. Is that possible, that you change your thinking? on anything?
Course I'm assuming you come from Attleboro and have a stake in this. I mean, why otherwise are you meddling here?
Steve Hopkins
7:19 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Gretchen - what does Seekonk's shelter 10-12 yrs ago have anything to do with spending over $1 million now for a new shelter now. Paul & I and others are against a $1 million cost. Period! No discussion here that we do not need a new facility. Just not as an expensive one.
How large is the proposed shelter? How many $$ per sq ft is building cost?
Why not have a 3 town area shelter with the 3 towns sharing building costs?
Why not look at re-habing an existing commercial building?
What do spaying/neutering programs have to do with the city of Attleboro, alone, spending a million bucks for a shelter? What does that have to do with having a 3 town (or 4 or whatever #) shared shelter?
What is 'state of the art' regarding an animal shelter in your opinion? We would all like to know!
8:55 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
All I want is what's good for the animals and the taxpayers, a Seekonk/Attleboro shared shelter makes so much sense, can't you see that? Thanks for the invite, but I play cards on Tuesday. As far as the meddling goes, no one does that better than you.
Jonathan Friedman
6:49 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
I added PDFs of the schematic floor and site plans at the request of Roxanne.
Steve Hopkins
7:20 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Thanks Jonathan - where / how do we see them?
Jonathan Friedman
7:22 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Steve, below the large picture of the photo, you can see a thumbnail of the photo. Below that are two thumbnails of the PDFs.
Gretchen Robinson
7:24 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
rule no. 1:
site animal shelters away from homes and businesses. They are noisy. Most commercial buildings are close to one or both of those.
As for your other comments, the horse it out of the barn. You are too late. It's going to be voted on. IMO it's time to move forward not procrastinate and hinder the process with this maundering.
Steve Hopkins
7:39 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Tomorrow night is just a hearing! As far as I am aware. And do not think that voting is any part of a hearing. The public has their time to respond and influence the council one way or another.
The two bathrooms should have plumbing on same wall,, back to back. The food prep rm & laundry seems way too big. The 'feline area'...what is that huge space for? Who guided this design with an architectural firm?
Steve Hopkins
7:44 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Is the cost an estimate from M Kim Associates or from a general contractor?
9:13 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
Every shelter project goes way over cost, North Attleboro's shelter is just one example. But folks in North Attleboro have millions of extra tax loot laying around for shelter overrun costs. This one will cost more and so will Seekonk's, that's why we should share the cost or at least consider it, because it's the right thing to do.
Betty L. Colol
9:26 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
@Steve Hopkins - this discussion has been ongoing for at least six years. Apparently you haven't paid attention nor have you taken the steps to find the correct individuals to speak with. You also sound like a very angry man. You have the right to voice your opinion at the public hearing. Good luck. @Gretchen - very thoughtful. Re: food donations - any Vet will tell you a change in diet is not advised. Not only brand of food but also type (lamb vs. chicken).
9:31 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
I don't think Steve sounded angry at all Can you give an example of the angry post you're referring to?. He is bringing up some very good points though. Oh, and yes a change in diet is not advised. So please let people know what is acceptable to donate and what is not.
Steven Scott
9:31 pm on Monday, January 14, 2013
just took a quick look at the floor plan, may I suggest moving the Mens room plumbing away from the exterior wall. May be a good plan for southern climates but not here.
8:04 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
I would suggest the restrooms on the sketch are simply to identify the location...These are NOT the actual plumbing/electrical etc specs. their purpose to to point out that there ARE restrooms.
Stephen Kane
12:40 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Another 'prevailing wage' horror story. That looks to be a $350K-$450K building project. And the city must pay double or triple for it? Why? The state 'prevailing wage' laws are as antiquated and useless as that old dog pound, serving a purpose neither relevant nor useful to today's economic realities. Build this facility? Of course. The old one is way outdated. Pay double or triple what it's worth? What foolishness is this? And why do we sheepishly accept it?
7:21 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
I agree with both Steven & Stephen but the animal lovers don't care about the cost. They say it's been going on for years so now they do not care if it costs 10 million. Some of these volunteers live in Rhode Island, do you think they care? Don't let your love of stray & feral animals cloud your common sense.
Gretchen Robinson
11:27 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
time to get busy Stephen. Get on an oversight committee. Time to get to work. Time for most of the posters here to stop acting like passive victims of the 'system.' Do more than gripe, please.
Stephen Kane
3:11 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
I agree that offline contributions are more important than online. I should know having just spent nine months, 7,500 pieces of direct mail, four thousand dollars, all raised within the District and from friends and family, none from special interests, to alert voters of the Second Bristol District to the high cost of placing their government in the hands of special interests, sketching out a program to bring change, including lowering state debt, reorganizing the MBTA, while working with officials at many levels and across party lines to bring the Gateway Cities economic development program home to the city.
9:24 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
This is the first I've heard of the cost for this building (thank you Patch). Also, if we can combine shelters (as we are combining Veterans agents) then we do all have a stake in this. We should question it. It's never too late to do the right thing. The inconvenient truth is, there is no more money available to be confiscated from the taxpayers. We need to look at how we can do things more efficiently . The animals need a warm safe place and food no question. I think everyone is asking some very good questions that need answers. The question most asked and no one can seem to answer is how do you justify a million dollar animal shelter? That is allot of money!
Joyce Leven
9:54 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Wouldn't it be nice if we had the same passion to shelter the homeless as we do the dogs and cats on the street?
George Glass
9:54 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Why is this and "All or Nothing" deal? When the topic of construction first came to council the cost was well under 1mil.. (more like 600,00-700,00) Council at that time should have pledged a bond for that amount. If you want "State of the art" fund raise. Or lower the expectation of what state of the art is. You can always add later if necessary. I think it is foolish to strap a city to pay such an enormous amount for the animal shelter at this time. Threat of "It will cost more later" fuel the fire. I appreciate the passion of the shelter people, it is too bad they don't feel as passionate toward people (do we even have a homeless shelter?) or the taxpayer and the burden it puts on them.
Brandy G.
10:56 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
We have several food banks but no homeless shelter, which is shameful considering the homeless population. The nearest one is in Taunton, I think.
Brandy G.
10:55 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
While I am all for getting a nicer building put in place for the shelter, why does it have to cost $1million when North Attleboro is spending less than half of that to expand and make theirs nicer? I don't understand the need for knocking down the current building and building a new one from scratch. Whether or not this building holds bad memories for you is irrelevant when you KNOW that money could be just as well spent elsewhere in the community.
11:15 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Brandy G. you are 100% correct, except it's going to cost way over 1 million, while veterans sleep in the gutter. We treat stray dogs & cats better than war veterans.
Sandy Miller
12:14 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Brandy - North is spending approx $525,000 so that is actually more than half, not less than half of what Attleboro is spending. Also, North's project is just a renovation.
Brandy G.
5:59 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
You and I both know that in the end this new shelter will cost more than $1 milion. And what I'm saying anyway is that all Attleboro needs is a renovation.
Gretchen Robinson
4:12 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Brandy, there are things going on in NA and factors that make the two situations very diffferent. It's apples and oranges.
By the way the NA shelter was built with leftover cinder blocks and other construction materials left over from the NA water treatment plant.
Gretchen Robinson
11:21 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
because North Attleboro, if what you say is true, is cheaping out.
I wish people here would read the newspapers and see what has going on.
This animal shelter project has been decades in the works. Now all you johnny
come-latelies jump in with your criticisms. Who needs it?
paul, your spreading of misinformation is not helpful. Neither is the panic, here.
Steven, if you think over-runs of costs will happen, then get on an oversight committee. It's time for people to put their money where their (BIG) mouths are. But since most of you are apparently not from Attleboro, I guess all you can do is go negative and vent your frustrations with other things.
Brandy G.
11:25 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
North Attleboro is "cheaping out"? They're getting a Taj Mahal for crying out loud.
By the way, I am from Attleboro. I do read the papers. The cost of this project has been protested against from the beginning and it's kind of cute that you will deny that to make yourself appear reasonable. If there is going to be a $1million animal shelter, then there sure better be a $1million human homeless shelter in the works, too.
Sandy Miller
12:11 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Brandy - Just because a new animal shelter is being built does not mean a homeless shelter needs to be built. That attitude leads to nothing getting done.
Steve Hopkins
1:14 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Gretchen - I am from attleboro. I pay taxes here. You have offered nothing constructive here, nothing at all. It appears to me that the tax payers of Attleboro should just blindly go along with the wishes of whomever was on the design committee and vote YES!
Sorry but that is not the way it works.
Brandy G.
5:58 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Sandy - you missed my point. An animal shelter already exists, and with renovations and expansions the cost could be much lower than it is right now. Meanwhile, Attleboro has homeless people sleeping on park benches, in the woods, anywhere they can get a little shelter, every night. A homeless shelter is necessary -- a brand-new, start-from-scratch animal shelter is not.
11:24 am on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Now it's decades in the works. Gretchen the problem is, we're tired of putting our money where your big mouth is. Where is the mis information?
Gretchen Robinson
12:16 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
as an exercise in critical thinking, maybe go through the above posts, even mine--especially mine--and see who's making emotional appeals, putting misinformation out there, and adding red herring arguments that get us off track, like the charge that the pro-animal shelter people are "shameless" in not caring about the homeless.
12:43 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Misinformation? The truth hurts! Many of you dog & cat fanatics care more about animals than people. Animals are so cute and they love back. Try going to an old folks home and see how many volunteers show up at diaper changing time. This stray animal condo is going to be a lot nicer than some peoples homes. How about the people that have been waiting for shelter for years? Are human beings considered Red Herrings, and if they are can they live at the animal shelter?
Gretchen Robinson
12:52 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
your reactivity and misrepresentations proves my point entirely...
by the way I worked with the elderly for years. How about you Paul?
George Glass
12:56 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Gretchen, you are misinformed to think that I (and others) dont pay attention.
Also if you go back to any animal shelter article on the patch you will find people who are NOT in support of building a state of the art shelter, and you and many others have treat us rudly because we dont agree with your opinion. No one really care what we think any way.
Its an election year and the Mayor and Jeremy Denly will point to this get re-elected. See, I pay attention
Joyce Leven
9:57 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
George, I must ask you--are you the same George Glass that dated Jan Brady in the '70's (I'm sorry...I couldn't resist)
Gretchen Robinson
4:14 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
when the personal attacks start, you are signaling that you are losing in the discussion.
Gretchen Robinson
1:29 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
you are making unfounded assumptions. An election year plays into this but that doesn't mean automatic approval.
I'm not being rude. I asking people to think clearly and use logic. Accusing proponsnts of being insensitive about the homeless is a red herring to distract from the main discussion at hand. It confuses the issues. Saying we don't care about veterans sleeping in the gutter while dogs and cats have a "Taj Mahal" is not having a serious discussion and such comments need to be challenged.
Saying at the outset that the cost will jump to 6 million is scare tactics IMO. Let's deal with reality and not use the scare tactics that infect the national media. Show me proof of other shelters in other towns or cities and then we can deal on the basis of facts. The statements above about the Pawtucket shelter are totally not true.
1:32 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
How do you know the statements arn't true Gretchen. Did you contact the Pawtucket shelter? I wasn't sure, maybe someone can verify either way.
Gretchen Robinson
1:37 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
I have it from someone I trust.
Iif you don't believe me, you contact the Pawtucket shelter or look at the Pawtucket Times online. If one wants to make valid statements, then you have to back it up. Sorry it's not going to be me, today. I have a life outside of PATCH.
Gretchen Robinson
1:35 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
how many critics will watch this with an open mind?
2:24 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
I watched it, and it's just like the TV adds that we see every day. We get that you want this shelter so bad that you don't care about cost, the rest of us do. I will finish my comment the same way I started this thread. It is crazy, in this economy that North Attleboro, Attleboro & Seekonk are all building multi million dollar animal shelters without sharing the costs, shame on our leaders and anyone that thinks we have this kind of money to blow.
George Glass
5:11 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
@Paul, I support you and your comment. In this day and age we NEED to consider alternate options that may have never been utilized before. Clearly none of of the animals are dying in the current facility. Perhaps we can buy some time and research alternate options. It's too bad the city has already spent $50k on the design (see Gretchen I really do pay attention) and Mass state law supports prevailing wage.
These cats and dogs will have a nicer house than me, and the majority of people in Attleboro. Talk about Lucky Dog!
Steve Hopkins
3:14 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Are there funds available for the MASPCA or other national entities? Has anyone on the 'design committee' inquired about other sources of $$$?
Betty L. Colol
8:31 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Gretchen most of these people don't keep up with the issues in the city. You'll never win them over so we should just let them complain because they add nothing to the discussion. If they did keep up they would know that the alternatives they speak of have been investigated. There have been many public meetings where they could have had input into the animal shelter. It seems they couldn't be bothered to show up. I'm curious where they get the idea that veteran's are sleeping in the gutter. Anyone care to enlighten me? Do you participate in the homeless count each year? Are you aware that many homeless people who are offered shelter refuse it. Did you know that many homeless people are giving free lodging at local motels? Educate yourselves.
Just sayin'
10:31 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
They could speak, but with such hostility in this discussion for those not in the inner circle would they have been heard?
Steve Hopkins
9:51 pm on Tuesday, January 15, 2013
Ms Betty - please, sit back and relax. !!! This conversation was begun on the issue of the cost of this project, and NOT whether it should be built or not. Re-read the beginning of the comments.
when a proposal is brought before the public and with a price, such as this one, it makes people take notice. And they have every right to stand up and be heard whether you and the others on the design/concept 'gang' like it or not. You havae to sit back and take the heat.
How many designs and cost packages have been brought before the public before? How many times was the architect told to go back and re-design, lower cost or what ever?
I hope you all are as aggressive with the contractor when he starts mentioning 'cost over-runs' to continue building the structure as specified.
Gretchen Robinson
3:46 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Steve, it's going to be voted on next week. Get over yourself please. The architectural firm, as was said in the hearing, has planned many animal shelters over its 20 years. They know and the building committee (volunteers all) know all the state and federal guidelines. We heard about preventing communicable diseases with proper ventilation, something that neither Attleboro's present shelter OR Seekonk has (Jan used to use fans in the back room in the Seekonk shelter years ago. Do they still?) Kennel cough can spread like wildfire throughout a shelter and some dogs get really sick. All this costs more money for vet. Modern shelters are expensive but cost effective. That's why communities invest in them.
I seriously think you are just trying to cause trouble. When you said, as you did tonight, that, in your opinion, the bathrooms should be back to back, you may have been right. Anyone who watches This Old House knows that. But then when you used that extremely minor point and tried to extrapolate it to imply that the architects and their design was poor, you engaged in a smear attack.
You didn't win any points with me or the Councilors, I think. Yes, you were listened to politely, but the CC are polite to everyone. Meanwhile they know who's a valid
presenter and who isn't. I don't know why you are so het up to derail this plan but I don't think you changed anyone's mind.
Paul Bristow
8:33 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Stephen K hit it on the head. There is only one thing driving the price over 1M and that is having to pay prevailing wage. For those who don't know this forces any job large or small to match not only the union wage but benifits. Doesn't take long to make a $600,000 job go over a Million.
Joyce Leven
10:32 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
when the job goes out to bid, you'll get three prices. Add them together and that's what it will take to build the shelter.
11:43 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
You got that right Joyce! That formula would work for firestations as well as school roofs. This shelter when done will be a wicked nice dog hotel/condo and it will end up costing over 2 million. The people that are going to complain about higher taxes are the ones that were standing up last night.
Kim Penque
11:35 am on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Over 100 people strong last night, we united as one and our voices were heard!
What an honor to stand up and be a voice! Today's Animal Shelters are much different than they were 30 plus years ago when our current shelter was built. The days of the "Dog Pound" and the "Dog Catcher" are long gone and it's time Attleboro moves toward the future and provide a new Shelter that will accommodate the needs of our community today and for years to come. A new Animal Shelter is more than just a building and very different than a residential design. It is a home (although temporary) it is a home to Attleboro's animals in need. The combination of animal behavior, disease control and noise control make building an Animal Shelter much different than a building we may see in an Industrial park, and definitely not comparable to the homes we reside in. Animal problems affect everyone, from the stray and abandoned to the neglected and abused. Attleboro's animals need the basic amenities to keep them safe, healthy and mentally stimulated while they prepare for their next step in life. The new shelter will allow us to provide the environment that promotes and protects the health and well-being of the animals in our care.
Each council member has the chance to make a difference. I and many others who attended last night urge the Council to vote yes and approve the bond for the new Shelter on January 22nd and make that choice to make a difference!
12:00 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
It was probably very helpful that they put other projects with school projects The school is very good with stacking meetings. Too bad it's not a ballott question: Attleboro Mayor Kevin Dumas wants the city to seek loans of $1.116 million to construct a new animal shelter and $3.55 million to upgrade Attleboro High School's athletic complex. Anyway, I hope the puppies and kitties enjoy thier multi million dolloar digs.
12:13 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Paul, this is where I must comment on what you just said. The fact you mentioned it will be a dog hotel/condo, tells me that you really haven't looked at the plans and have not been involved in the process. As a tax payer, you have every right to wonder about the costs and whether or not it will increase your taxes. The plan for the shelter is actually not something that is 'state of the art' or over the top. If you do a quick search on other towns/cities in the area that have recently built or will be building a new shelter, the 1 million dollar cost is actually on the lower end - and the cost per sq ft is right around what the others have cost. You may not agree with it, but the standards of animal care has changed (for the better). In order for the volunteers and ACO officers to give the best care and get the animals adopted, the shelter needs to have a HVAC system that separates the quarantined animals with healthy animals that will prevent the spread of airborne diseases, the individual kennels need to be sanitary and made from flooring and walls that will not harbor diseases and are easily cleaned, sealed off quarantine areas that are for animals needing treatment, the proper storage, room for families to meet and greet animals (now they do it outside regardless of weather), and room for the staff to hold meetings and trainings. Also, the council mentioned that there would be no increase in debt since there is debt coming off of the books this year.
1:18 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Yes a new shelter is needed but what is not needed is all the extra space they are asking for. So what if you have to go outside to see a dog/cat for possible adoption. When you get a dog you have to take it outside for exercise don't you? Also, you keep saying that this is their "temporary" home. Well from what I have seen some of these dogs are kept there for more than a year??? And what about the dogs that you say are up for adoption then when a person goes to look at it they are told that the animal is not quite ready yet. Perfect example is that Moby Richard that was in a recent article, where is he right now?? At a facility in Middleboro for more work on his "manners". Tell me this, how much does it cost the taxpayers to house one of these dogs per day? I am so sick and tired of reading month after month or better about a particular dog that has been waiting for it's forever home. It appears that it already is at it forever home right there at the shelter. You ask for all these special rooms for these special needs animals - stop spending our money on them and we won't have to have such a huge facility. I'm told that taxes won't be going up - well they won't be going down either. If we didn't borrow over 1 million dollars I'm sure that we would see some decrease in our taxes. So don't try and justify the loan!
12:44 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Amy, actually the meeting turnaround was not because of the school 'stacking' the meeting. There were over 100 Attleboro residents who attended the meeting who were there to support the shelter. They even had their name called and stood up in support for the animal shelter. So, it wasn't a 'stacked' meeting because of the school also had a project on the docket. That is what the town council meetings are for - it is an arena for residents to express their opinions about the projects or issues for that meeting. I only saw one person (Steve) speak up in the meeting regarding the costs of the new shelter. I respect that and wish more people would be involved like that instead of sitting behind a keyboard and posting. If you feel strongly about something, then that is the forum to express your opinions and have your voice be truly heard and where you can learn about what actually went on.
12:46 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Thank you for the advice TJ. Are you behind a keyboard posting now?
4:10 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Part of the problem is that a public forum down at town hall isn't the most comfortable place to speak up against something. I think this is something that should be on the ballots. I would tend to think if it was, a majority of the residents would vote to cut the costs.
12:48 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Yes, I am, but I was actually there attending the town council meeting voicing my opinion. I am posting because I saw some posts that were untrue and wanted to clarify them.
12:52 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Were the posts untrue or did you just disagree with them? Again for the 100th time. No one has disagreed that an animal shelter is needed. It's just the cost at least for me. So like I said, enjoy your new digs.
12:58 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
No Amy, your post was completely untrue regarding the fact that the school project is what stacked the meeting last night. The truth is, most of the people who were there, were people who supported the shelter and had nothing to do with the school project. That is what I am commenting on as being false. I completely understand the fact that everyone's post is regarding the cost of the shelter and not the need. I have never said that. My other post even stated that as a tax payer you have every right to question the cost of any city project. I just wanted to point out that it is not some animal resort that was posted earlier. I wanted to present some examples of what is needed and what goes into a shelter that could drive up costs.
Gretchen Robinson
4:26 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
mark, were you there last night? or any of the nights when the animal shelter project was open for public comment? No, I thought not.
It would have been perfectly appropriate for anyone to speak against the proposal. Someone spoke against the water treatment upgrade. The meeting was run well and proponents of the animal shelter were encouraged to observe proper decorum. Frank Cook runs a tight ship and Councilors listen with respect and so do attendees.
This is "not your father's City" council!!! People voice their views. I have on other occasions voiced dissenting views and had my opinions respected. To suggest that opponents were too cowed to speak their mind is a misrepresentation of reality.
6:57 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Gretchen, I don't have much time on my hands here; what I was trying to say is that not everyone is comfortable bringing a grievance to such a formal setting.
I'm not very politically involved; I don't watch or attend meetings and am not informed as to when things are discussed.. Other things in life have a higher priority and I often lack spare time. But I still do have an opinion about how tax money is spent. I wish voting was an appropriate way to communicate that opinion!
6:59 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
I do appreciate you egging me on and encouraging me to get down there. Perhaps sometime in the near future...
7:12 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Mark, you are right and most people agree with you. Some of the animal fanatics on this thread think it's stupid to question a price tag that's well over one million and going up as we comment, shame on them! They all say poor Rover has been waiting for new digs since Bill Clinton was in office. If the price was 100 million bucks and Curt Schilling was asking for it, all you animal loving suckers would anti up.
Gretchen Robinson
7:19 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
I think these days, people feel very free to call and express opinions with their City Councilor. So maybe call and discuss issues privately. People even call the mayor. I haven't done a lot of either but I called Rick Conti once with something I disagreed with him on. I kept it civil and he was glad of that. You never know when the City Councilor or other leader that you disagree with this time, might be someone you agree with nex.
I'm not involved in City issues much at all but I have issues that I follow and work towards. Things that are important to me, like the environment and supporting the Library. Hang in there, we're all trying how to learn how to use this medium (emails, PATCH, Facebook) and learn how to have constructive discussions. Alas, too many of us, myself included, take sides and go on the attack.
I think everyone has areas of expertise they might add to discussions. What I don't like is those who are just negative. But that's the way the medium is, in some ways.
Be well. Be encouraged. We can all learn more about how to improve this City we all love.
Gretchen Robinson
7:21 pm on Wednesday, January 16, 2013
mark, wanted to add that it takes a lot of us a long time to find our voice in public: letters to the editor, speaking at a hearing. It's a process so I'd encourage everyone to push the envelope a bit.
6:51 pm on Tuesday, January 22, 2013
There is $800,000. of debt service being retired this year. That's a loan of more than $10,000,000. These three projects if bonded for 12 years will total approximately less than $700,000. in debt service at current rates. However, rates may change within the time it takes to go to bond. Still, it's predicted that it will not be as high as the debt being retired. No increase in taxes due to THESE three projects. Taxes will always go up within the prop 2 1/2 % allowed.
Gretchen Robinson
9:41 pm on Tuesday, January 22, 2013
that's an important point, Dolly. It came out during the hearing last Thursday and I think was mentioned in the newspaper but it bears repeating here.


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