text:
The Boy Scouts of America Lose Funding
Intel stops donations until ban on gay scouts and scout leaders is lifted.
Financial supporters of the Boy Scouts of America have been under firm pressure by gay rights organizations demanding that companies take a stand against the youth organization whose policy discriminates against people based on their sexual orientation.
The push might just be working. This week the BSA lost funding from their largest corporate funder, Intel, which reportedly gave the youth organization more than $700,000 in 2010.
The move resulted from a campaign launched by Eagle Scout Zach Wahls, founder of Scouts for Equality, who started a campaign at Change.org. He urged Intel to pull funding for BSA after an American Independent report disclosed that the company gave large contributions to the organization. With the support of GLAAD and the signatures of 30,000 Americans, Wahls pushed the Intel Foundation to halt their financial support to the BSA.
In a statement to ThinkProgress, Intel reaffirmed their policy, claiming that it will not fund "organizations that discriminate on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, veteran or disability status."
According to ThinkProgress, prospective recipients of Intel grants will now have to sign a statement confirming that they do not discriminate based on creed or sexual orientation, and any groups that cannot do so will be ineligible for funding.
Under the policy, Boy Scout troops and councils that refuse to uphold the BSA's discriminating policy would still be eligible for funding. Intel's Chief Diversity Officer, Rosalind Hudnell, wrote in the statement;
Due to significant growth in the number of organizations funded, earlier this year we revisited our policies associated with the program, and applied new rigor that requires any organization to confirm that it adheres to Intel's anti-discrimination policy in order to receive funding. Intel is committed to fostering a culture of inclusion and to supporting the communities in which we live and work.
Trouble first started brewing for the BSA in April 2012 when Jennifer Tyrrell, a mom and den leader from Ohio was removed from her 7-year-old's Cub Scout Pack for being gay. GLAAD then started the lean on the BSA to end their ban on gay scouts and scout leaders by starting a Change.org petition in support of Tyrell. The petition attracted more than 330,000 signatures.
Since then, gay rights supporters have been demanding that the BSA reverse their policy. CEOs for both AT&T and Ernst and Young issued statements saying they disagreed with the ban on gay scouts and scout leaders and supported a proposed resolution to end the ban.
Even President Obama and Mitt Romney agree that the BSA should not discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation.
Many families have chosen to boycott the youth organization, removing their sons from troops or not permitting their sons to join in protest of the anti-gay policy. This choice has opened many family conversations around the dinner table about gay rights and discrimination.
The BSA has agreed to review the ban on homosexuals but as of now, no changes have been announced.
Should the Boy Scouts give in to pressure to lift the ban? Is your family boycotting the BSA? Do you talk to your children about gay rights? Please share your thoughts and experiences in the comments.
Greg Williams
7:20 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
If the military can do it, then so can the Boy Scouts.
Rebecca McCarthy
7:29 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Greg, there are similarities between the two organizations already. The thing is, the military is a publicly owned enterprise and the Boy Scouts are private. Were/are you involved with either one?
Greg Williams
9:07 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I was part of the Boy Scouts as a kid for a while. I'm not involved now, and I know I won't be as long as they continue to discriminate.
Leigh Hewett
9:16 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I agree with Rebecca's comment that it's a bit tricky since the BSA are private. Seems to me that they should have the right to make any kind of limitation on who can join. That doesn't mean that I agree with their choice but it is their choice to make. We can choose to support them or not.
John Dunn
7:56 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
The BSA is a private organization that has as its core a belief in God. All of the world faiths are repesented and none of them advocate homosexuality. This is definitely something I will consider the next time I buy a computer. My newest laptop does not have Intel chips, and by my estimation Intel is losing market share. Two can play this silly game. The boycott starts today.
Rebecca McCarthy
7:58 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
John, were you a Boy Scout? My father and three brothers were. I have no idea how the organization will respond to this. What do you think they will do? we know what you will do.
8:55 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
John - I agree with you 110%. As a Christian nation we need to take a hard stand. I'll also boycott Intel chips.
Greg Williams
9:23 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Homosexuals are Christians, too. Jesus didn't discriminate against who could follow him, either. He was quite the radical by giving non-Jews a way to follow God. The core history of Christianity is about accepting those who are considered outcasts.
I love how these Christian organizations pick and choose which parts of the Bible they're going to follow. For example, Jesus spoke directly against divorcing and remarrying. He clearly said that to do so violates the "Thou shalt not commit adultery" commandment. So does the BSA also discriminate against anyone who is in that situation? If it is going to claim to be a Christian organization, it seems that it should at least follow all of Jesus's teachings.
9:56 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
BSA is not a Christian organization. Duty to God is part of the Scout oath, and all faiths are welcome. Perhaps the confusion lies in that many packs and troops are chartered through Christian churches.
Risa Haynes
10:40 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Bonnie, I have struggled with whether to even bother getting into this argument with a stranger, but I feel compelled to remind/inform you that the first of the Amendments to The U.S. Constitution, collectively known as the "Bill of Rights," states clearly that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This not only guaranteed freedom of belief but also ensured that no single religion would be given privileges over others.
So, no, America is NOT a Christian nation.
This is yet another subject that makes me glad to have a daughter, although to be honest, I wouldn't have put a son in the Scouts either. My husband and I already know how to hike, camp, fish, build fires, and instill morals in our child (morals that don't include hatred/discrimination for ANY reason). And the ONLY time in my life I have ever been physically assaulted by ANYONE was by an eagle scout, so their track record for helping mold boys into men is pretty abysmal in my experience.
JP Frachiseur
3:44 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Lets start the boycott today!
Not only against that though, lets boycott everything that is shunned in scripure, like the great game of foot ball, polyester, and king crab! Why pick and choose right? Lets take this christian nation right back to the dark ages where the bible belongs!!!
John P. Dunn
10:19 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Rebecca, I regret every day that I was not a Boy Scout. I have been a scout leader for six years. I am not sure the BSA will do anything. That is not what they are about. They are about building men of God, and Greg, that is however they recognize God. All faiths are represented in the BSA, and to my recollection, none of them advocate homosexuality. Risa, I am sorry you had a bad experience with one Eagle Scout. I guarantee none of the young men I know with that rank would do anything but help you if you needed help. The thing is, folks, most people nowadays don't give a tinker's damn about what you do in your private life. We are basically sick of your agenda to take us beyond toleration to acceptance and ultimately advocacy. Sorry. The Supreme Court ruled in the BSA's favor, and we intend to take advantage of that until the next knucklehead files a lawsuit. I want my son to learn how to camp, and to do a good turn, and to have fun. My guess is getting the "homosexuality awareness merit badge" would not be at the top of his list of what is fun.
Robert E
2:11 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
I frequently hear Christians claim that the United States is a Christian nation, or that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a Christian nation. When they bother to offer evidence it's usually some McCarthy-era addition to our pledge or our money, or some quote (often bogus) from a speech or a letter by one of the Founding Fathers.
Think about this for a second: If you were starting a Christian nation, how would you go about it? Would you make oblique references to "Great Powers" and "Guiding Hands" in obscure speeches and letters, or would you fill your foundational documents with references to Jesus Christ and the Bible?
The Founding Fathers were brilliant men. They spent months and months working on the Constitution. They were very, very careful about what they wrote, discussing and debating every passage at great length. It seems to me that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they would have said so somewhere in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had no reason to be vague. There was no ACLU, no "Activist judges." If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written:
Robert E
2:12 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
God Almighty, in Order to form a true Christian Nation, establish Divine Justice, insure adherence to His Laws, provide for the defense of His Church, promote His Word, and secure His Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, has led us to ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Instead they wrote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The words "Jesus" "Christ" "Bible" "God" and even "Creator" appear nowhere in the Constitution ("Endowed by their Creator" is in the Declaration of Independence.) Just how stupid would someone have to be to create a Christian nation then forget to mention Christ in the Constitution?
Robert E
2:12 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Also notice that nobody ever asks what the Founding Mothers might have said. There were no Founding Mothers. The Founders were all men; White men, many of them slave owners. White male slave owners who may or may not have been Christians, but explicitly forbade any kind of religious test for office. In other words, you have a far stronger case if you'd like to argue that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a racist and sexist nation.
I think you can make a good case that some or even most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but it's absurd to think that they wanted to impose that belief on the nation, and even more absurd to imagine we should be bound by their prejudices.
8:44 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
The scouts were here and operating way before Intel started donating, they will continue to make a positive impact on boys lives without all this gay noise. If you don't like it don't join. There are plenty of gay groups that will listen to your complaints.
Leigh Hewett
9:18 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
We have been lucky that our son has yet to show interest. Honestly, I'm not sure what I would do if he wanted to join. Several of my friends are boycotting the BSA and I know that some of their sons are disappointed that they aren't scouts. Also, the conversation about gay rights with a 7-year-old is tricky and one I'm not sure that I'm ready to have. I hope that some of my friends who have discussed it with their kids will chime in and share their experience.
9:49 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Leigh, I hope you will consider Scouting for your son if he shows interest. Even though I disagree with the policy, I believe that our family has greatly benefited from our Scouting experiences, and our sons have grown and matured through the leadership opportunities available through Scouting. We don't sit around at Scout meetings bashing gays. We spend our time planning and going on camping trips, learning scouting skills, performing service projects, etc.
9:31 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
The BSA just finished a review and decided to uphold their membership standards (link to this summer's press release here: http://www.scouting.org/Media/PressReleases/2012/20120717.aspx). I fail to see how being gay is inconsistent with the mission of the BSA to "... prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." Given that the BSA is a private organization, and many of the current membership is anti-gay, i think a change in policy is years away. I do hope that change happens by the time my teenage sons have children of their own in Scouting.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
1:46 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
If the sole focus of objecting to BSA is in the matter of GAY admissions, why hasn't an alternate organization been formed by now? Contact INTEL and take their funding as a core.
Those who are DETERMINED to force your own views on others as a symbol of the tolerance you claim to champion really rings hollow. Keeping your children out if they show interest, well a as parent that's your prerogative.
Leigh Hewett
3:39 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Thanks for this link. From what I understand BSA is revisiting it again and The Associated Press reported that the organization has agreed to consider a new policy for 2013 that would allow local Scouting groups to decide for themselves whether to accept gay members and leaders, but no official decision will likely be made until May 2013.
Here is the link with that info...
9:43 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I feel sad for all the little boys of the world who won't be Scouts or will never enjoy Chic-Fil-A waffle fries again because their parents are using them to take a stand in an adult fight over gay rights. Kids aren't aware of sexual orientation and shouldn't be made aware of it until they are older. Not that being gay is bad but a kid should be out in the woods with friends and building camp fires, not stuck indoors contemplating the rights of adults' sexual orientations or where the BSA gets their money. Let the grown ups fight this fight without taking the fun away from being a kid. I have gay friends and I love them but that is the extent of my support for them. I love them unconditionally and teach my kids to love them too, just for being good people not because they are gay.
Athens Mama
6:02 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Our mindless involvements with prejudiced organizations impact our children in that when they do become aware of these issues and our lack of response to them, they see what we stand for and what we support.
Athens Mama
6:02 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I have talked to my son about this. If he wanted to join, I would not hold him back.
Michael k
9:51 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Wasn't there a time when lots of private businesses would not serve blacks? Did those business owners have the right to limit their products or services to whites only?
El Jefe
11:29 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Its quite simple. Its a club. They can decide who is allowed to join. If I don't like I can start my own club.
Mike A.
11:48 am on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I guess Intel is not as wise as their name suggests.
Deb M.
12:12 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
My oldest son is very interested in joining BSA - and there are alternatives to BSA in Athens, GA which we are looking into. And except for this one instance of intolerance on the part of the Boy Scouts, I would love to sign him up. But it is a bit Orwellian to one minute say we should not judge people based on things they can not change about themselves and then turn around and let him participate in a group that clearly does; "Animal Farm" come to life if you will. It's really not fair to my sons to send them mixed signals. "Some are more equal than others" is not really something I want to expose them to just yet in life
12:47 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I just signed my son up for scouts and I totally disagree with this discriminatory policy. If my son grows up and agrees with me then I would expect him to advocate for change from within the club. I would think his opinion would matter more as a club member than ours from the outside. When people speak out against discrimination and hate, positive change can happen.
12:57 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Duluth2 wrote, "We don't sit around at Scout meetings bashing gays." That's beside the point.
John Dunn wrote, "The BSA is a private organization that has as its core a belief in God." The decision-makers at BSA are bigots. Disguising their anti-gay bigotry as religion is consistent with their bigoted predecessors who fought to maintain slavery and segregation.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
1:51 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
No, they aren't bigots.
They just have a core belief you don't care for and the way you handle your descent of their position says more about yourself than "them".
4:34 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
RE: "...the way you handle your [dissent] of their position says more about yourself than 'them'."
Indeed. It says that I'm not a bigot, and that I have no patience for bigotry.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
5:19 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Actually you juist might be
6:11 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
If the implication is that folks who support gay rights are anti-Christian, my response is that the anti-Christians are those who justify their bigotry by waving the Bible around.
Ryan Brooks
1:00 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I'm going to throw my two cents in here (which isn't worth that much). Private or not, no one shouldn't discriminate due to sexual orientation. When I see Christians say we have to take a stand I agree, but only when it comes to defending the right to have your belief. Chick-fil-a supports the biblical definiton of marriage, but serves any and all who enter. Just because you support it doesn't mean you close off those who don't. By saying it that way it seems one would suggest that we close our church doors to those who aren't exactly like we are and that's wrong. Everyone needs Jesus, regardless of the life or lifestyle they choose. By saying that, its seems that we limit the power and works of Christ.
Rebecca McCarthy
1:21 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
The Boy Scouts may have a problem with gay people, but they seemed to have easily accommodated predators and pedophiles for years in their organization. An investigation by the LA Times showed the abusers moved around more than did pedophile priests, going from troop to troop, sometimes in different states. It's a disturbing story, and situation. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-boyscouts-20120805-m,0,5822319.story
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
1:54 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
YES - there are "fallen men and women" everywhere in society.
And the sad fact is, if one were to dig very far, I'm certain we could find GAY abusers too.
Racer X
7:32 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
R is right. There are predators everywhere. It is up to parents to train their kids to recognize and report them while parents themselves keep a sharp eye on their kids. Predators should be castrated.
Ryan Brooks
1:41 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
NJ, why is that? I would love to hear you explain why with more than a sentence?
Athens Mama
6:05 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
NJ4America is a bit of a troll. Keep in mind that there may not a whole lot of meaningful feedback forthcoming.
2:45 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Hmmmmm. I was thinking of allowing my son to join the BSA. But now I think I'll insist he join a group of gay kids as an alternate. Closed minded (dare I say bigoted) gay kids are the type of role models I want him to look up to, not something as prejudiced as BSA.
Obviously, I'm being sarcastic here. The BSA is an honorable organization and our thoughts, concerns, comments are useless unless you have a son showing interest in the Scouts. Then you have to make a decision along with him of whether to join the BSA, join some other organization, or join nothing at all. Beyond that, its only the business of the BSA, not ours.
I believe the gay community recently tried exercising their will against Chic-Fil-A. This backfired big time. My guess is that the BSA will garner donations thousands fold over what Intel is taking away.
Athens Mama
6:05 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
"This backfired big time." - - - Really? Then why is it that they are publicly backpedaling now?
6:42 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
There is no backpedaling. They are clarifying their gifts/donations. And Chic-Fil-A's all over America sold out on the day proposed to show support. Their business since has improved. And the day the gays showed up to protest, no one cared. Even the gays didn't show up...only three people at Hamilton Mill location and they left after 10 minutes. So, yep....backfired big time.
Leigh Hewett
3:40 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Rebecca-that link is so disturbing! Thanks for sharing it with us, though.
Rebecca McCarthy
3:50 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
If I had a son, I would not allow him to join the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts until they took measures to make sure predators can't be involved. So far, they haven't done this, and I wouldn't knowingly put my child within reach of a possible abuser.
John B
6:41 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I'm glad you broached the subject of predators as it was missing from the discussion in this thread. And I concur with your stand. As a parent, it's not about who's gay...I could care less. That said, although predators can be found anywhere, the BSA is a magnet for them for obvious reasons.
6:44 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
How do you do that Rebecca? Most wives can't even tell if their own husband is an abuser. Abusers hide their practices well.
John P. Dunn
10:27 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
The BSA has some of the strongest policies on youth protection. Leaders are investigated when they apply and there after are required to take a biannual youth protection course. The boys have to take a youth protection course annually, which is, frankly, quite blunt as to the predators that are out there and how they operate. The truth is, unless someone has been convicted of a crime, they will likely pass a background check. That is for the BSA, the GSA, and any and all youth activities, including sports. We take it very seriously.
Linda Labbo
4:44 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
My son was a boy scout for many years and enjoyed camping, camraderie, and activities designed to build his confidence, self esteem, and character. He carried many of those lessons with him into his teen and young adult years. I believe the BSA will do the right thing, which is to focus on integrity and character building. These core beliefs must guide their decision making as to whether or not to continue their stance about who can and can not serve in leadership positions.
Tammy Osier
6:15 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Ryan and R agreed. I do have to wonder how they knew the BS leader was gay though. If someone shows good leadership, then it shouldn't matter who they are- however, If somone comes into a group and does not teach what the group is about but starts another agenda that's contrary to what is expected, then maybe there was some behavior that got them canned. We don't know. It doesn't share much detail. Being a private organization, they have a right to govern behavior and stand by core beliefs; like Linda said, integrity, character etc...
Pedophiles don't always have a record. But-they are everywhere. We need to teach our kids how to handle situations where they might be vicitimized and hopefully, catch anyone who could hurt a child regardless of their beliefs or lifestyles.
Leigh Hewett
6:35 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Athens Mama,
Last I read, Chic-fil-a was not changing their stance after all. Just wanted to let boycotting folks know before they rushed over to get their chicken sandwhich.
10:03 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
It's Boy Scouts right to discriminate, and it's their private funders right to withdraw their support as long as they do. I don't see a problem here. Intel is a private company, and I'm more likely to support them now. I wouldn't send my son anywhere near the Boy Scouts - and not just because their homophobic douchebags - a much deeper rot pervades them, since they also willfully covered up sexual abuse going on in their midst. Sounds a lot like the Catholic church.
John B
10:38 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
So what you are saying is the BSA needs to be tolerant and inclusive of homosexuality while ensuring none of them are predators..........is that right?
11:02 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
There's no correlation between pedophilia and being gay, you know that, right, John? At least I hope you're educated enough to know that much.
What I'm saying is, BSA can discriminate all they want as a private organization. But that doesn't give them the right to subvert laws designed to protect minors from abuse, and they should be prosecuted for doing so - just as the Catholic church should be prosecuted as well. And while it is their legal right to discriminate, I do my research, and many others do, and won't support any organization that discriminates against my family. And I will actively go out of my way to support companies who refuse to support other companies who discriminate. That's where our power lies in a democratic, capitalist society.
So, that means that the BSA is free to discriminate and solicit donations from other bigots, who I'll also boycott, and they can watch on the sidelines while society leaves them behind. Because the reality is, they are on the losing side of this debate - young people are more and more tolerant about lgbt people and in time, won't tolerate backwards douchebags who continue to discriminate. But it's their right to do so, up to a point. I say, good luck with that. Look how well being antiquated has worked out for the Catholic church - the average age of active Catholics is rising and their membership is dropping. They'll either have to change, or disappear in to the folds of history - much like the BSA.
John B
11:22 pm on Wednesday, September 26, 2012
I have to admit I'm not educated enough to understand much about pedophelia but if a man finds someone of the same sex attractive regardless of age I would assume being heterosexual is a stretch. Again, I am no expert but not because I'm uneducated...just uneducated in reference to pedophelia...so I stand corrected if what you are saying is true. BTW....I think most people are tolerant and accepting of the LGBT population...but those who are not I would necessarily say they are douchebags...and calling those who may not be as accepting bigots doesn't help your cause. It just makes you look angry, but I do like the content and presentation of your post.....
John B
9:54 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I guess I'm not convinced there is no correlation now Eve. I found article after article that resembled this one. http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=is02e3
If you have more credible sources please post for my reference.
Greg Williams
6:20 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Calling someone a bigot is not derogatory or angry. It doesn't matter if the person is nice or mean with their beliefs. They're still a bigot. It isn't restricted to just religious beliefs, either. Fit the definition and that person is a bigot.
John B
6:31 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Excellent Greg...by your very definition that makes you a bigot correct? Sounds like you're not tolerant of those who don't share the same beliefs or opinions as you....and you sound a bit angry about it. Just fitting the definition right now.
Greg Williams
6:55 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I freely admit to being intolerant of intolerance.
John B
8:42 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I appreciate your candor Greg. So you would agree that your intolerance is bigotry? I'm just using your definition. And in reality, using your definition, we can all be classified as bigots for some reason in our lives as there are things we are intolerant of. I'm ok with that.
Leigh Hewett
9:04 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Although I can appreciate a healthy debate, I respectfully ask that you two try to continue this conversation without throwing around heated words and arguing about semantics. Let's play nice or not play at all, okay boys?
John B
9:13 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
There are no heated words. You must live in a bubble. We have a point-counterpoint discussion going on here that I consider healthy. I have no ill will towards Greg. Not sure why you would inject yourself into this other than you have nothing else value added to offer in the thread. By the way, I mean that with the utmost respect....
Leigh Hewett
9:24 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Well, I wrote the article and started the conversation so I like to keep up with what goes down on here with the comments. From past experience, conversations like these can quickly spiral into name calling and nastiness. I just wanted to make sure that this thread stays respectful. By all means, carry on your debate gentleman. See that, I called you gentlemen instead of boys. I can play nice too.
Leigh Hewett
9:41 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
No problem, John B. Thanks for reading and commenting.
Greg Williams
9:43 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I've been informed by a professional writer friend that the definition I posted above is not a good definition. Here's a better one from Webster. "A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."
When the BSA kicks out a mother running a troop because she's gay, that is an injustice caused by bigotry. When you react to right an injustice, that does not make you a bigot.
Injustice (from Webster) "absence of justice : violation of right or of the rights of another".
Now, you can say that the gay mother doesn't have a particular right to be involved in the BSA. If you change it to "black mother" would you feel the same way? As a private organization they aren't legally required to allow blacks, either, but it would certainly be seen as an injustice and bigoted if they tried to exclude someone based on race. The BSA knows it would be an injustice, which is why they don't exclude based on race.
We're in the midst of a culture change around homosexuality just like we had (and still have) with race. It's going to be a bumpy road until it becomes generally accepted as an injustice to discriminate based on sexual orientation.
7:42 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Bottom line.... They are a private group that doesn't agree with or support the gay lifestyle. If you don't like it, don't support them. That simple. start your own gay group. Nothing stopping you from doing that is there? tolerance and acceptance are two totally different words.
8:16 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Last year, my son joined scouts and I did as well as a leader. I regret not having been involved in scouting when I was a youth and am thoroughly enjoying it now. I agree that what was done in the past is discpicable with the abuse and the covering up of the abuse. However, it is very obvious that they take it seriously now with Youth Protection Training and two-deep leadership.
8:27 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I will also say that it should be completely reasonable to allow (i.e. tolerate) an organization that has a set of moral values, including ones that state active homosexuality is immoral. I would not want my impressionable son to be under the leadership (i.e. influence) of someone who exhibited a behavior I do not agree with; such as alcoholism, pedophilia, verbal abuser, homosexulaity, adultry, etc...
I appreciate the BSA having some standards as opposed to the current societal shift that is removing all taboos and boundries under the guise of "openness" or "tolerance" and forcing it on others or else...
8:45 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
A Scout is......TRUSTWORTHY, LOYAL, HELPFUL, FRIENDLY, COURTEOUS, KIND, OBIDENT, CHEERFUL, THRIFTY, BRAVE, CLEAN AND REVERENT. The Scout Oath includes "to be morally straight". If you don't agree with these precepts, then please GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. A Scout does not agree with the homosexual lifestyle.
10:08 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Eve......I did not say I was a good speeller. How do you spell accomplishment? Accomplishment is a long word, made up of many letters. That is entirely appropriate, because there are many different qualities and values that go into creating accomplishment. Just as it takes fourteen letters to spell the word "accomplishment," so too does it require at least as many positive values to bring about any worthwhile living. Everything you do begins as a thought in your mind. Although you won't make things happen solely by thinking about them, with your actions you are constantly making things happen in your world, and your thoughts direct those actions.
The BSA has helped build the future leaders of this country by combining educational activities and lifelong values with fun. The Boy Scouts of America believes — and, through over a century of experience, knows — that helping youth is a key to building a more conscientious, responsible, and productive society.
9:18 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
John B,
Are you attracted to people of all ages? I'm not. If you're attracted to people who are children, you're a pedophile. Personally, I'm only attracted to people who are adults. Virtually all LGBT people would say the same thing. In fact, statistically most pedophiles are straight, white, men, regardless of their attraction to young girls or young boys. Many are married to women and report healthy sex lives with those women. It's a fetish, like any other fetish, only one that is deeply damaging and hurtful and violent and therefore should never be realized.
Rebecca McCarthy
9:20 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Thanks, Eve, I was going to say something similar.
9:28 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
What happened to society that one day we started using "LGBT" like we're talking about normalcy? I always felt something strange about the guy dressing as a woman in the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
John B
9:46 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Like I said, understanding pedophilia is not my strong suit so I appreciate the education. But when you say most pedophilias are straight, white, men...how many of them do you think hide behind that very veil but are really nothing but predators pretending to be something they are not....like straight. I can't buy the fetish thing. Honestly, pedophilia is a result of someone who's wiring is completely crossed up. To call it disturbing would be an understatement.
Leigh Hewett
9:47 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
You win the award for most intelligent comment of the day. Thanks for this.
9:43 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I wasn't sure how to spell censor so I used both. I was a straight scout as kid and I didn't hate people like Grant does.
John B
9:54 am on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Yup...Grant has a copyright on being angry...no doubt.
Jan Kennedy
12:27 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
My family has been involved with Boy Scouts of America for several generations. We've always appreciated their high standards in everything, including an oath which each Scout takes to stay "morally straight." With most people, esp. Christians, considering that to refrain from sex except in the context of marriage, BSA is absolutely right NOT to give in to gay pressure. And - marriage is only between a man and a woman according to all faiths that I know of. Stand strong, Boy Scouts! And I hope that Girl Scouts will also - I have family members involved with them.
John Cook
12:31 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
In the Cairo Speech, Obama said, "It is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as THEY see fit." So it is important for Muslims, but not for citizens of other faiths?
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
11:13 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
So one could then infer that the BSA is actually more tolerant of Muslims than many posters here... interesting.
Rebecca McCarthy
7:32 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
What does this have to do with Boy Scouts? I miss the point. I think if I put up a recipe, someone would find a way to slam President Obama, his wife or his children.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
6:46 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Because a byproduct of the current BSA policy is actually fulfilling the suggestion made by President Obama "to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as THEY see fit." .
Which oddly enough, is spot on concerning the focus of gay presence.
Allison Knight-Khan
12:40 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Allison Knight
Responding to R,
No, you can't infer that BSA is "more tolerant of Muslims." In fact, we went to a meeting and one of our neighbors wore an "anti-Muslim" t-shirt by Hank Williams to let us know how he feels. This is just ignorance. Straight Christians believe, like Muslims, that man is created for a woman and vice versa and there are no exceptions.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
2:54 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
So what about DARWIN? If the Female/Male thing from religions' point of view is intolerant, how about his scientific theories?
1:34 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Some of the finest men I know were/are Eagle Scouts.
1:44 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Some of the finest individuals I have ever had the honor of knowing are homosexual...
Your point?
2:01 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Grant, no one is putting you down for your sexual preference. That's your business. You being gay doesn't mean you lose freedom. It's just that scouts don't allow you guys joining their club. Why would you want to?
2:07 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
He he ... Cute, I see what you tried to do there!
Apparently you missed the part where I wrote "That said , like the Klan , the Neo Nazis ,the American Family Association and other similar groups the Scouts is a private organization and as long as they exist independent of the government as a private organization they get to choose their membership based on whatever criteria they wish to apply"
Thanks , and have a splendid day
Jan McKenzie
4:34 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
Since when does disagreeing with someone's agenda mean that you are hateful? It seems to me that anyone who disagrees with the activists is automatically labed and branded with some strong language. Feels like propaganda and strong arming to me. You can love and respect someone and still disagree with them.
10:26 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I think the BSA should only allow homosexual men to be Scout Leaders. Then they could take our young boys into the woods for campouts. Maybe they should bring along a Catholic priest as a chaperone. That way, right after our weekly talk to our boys about "gay rights" as Leigh asks, they could go off and get a little first hand knowledge. What could go wrong? I'm sure Intel would resume funding. I'll bet NAMBLA would send them a nice check too.
Rebecca McCarthy
7:35 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
James, setting aside your sarcasm, you might want to look at this story to learn what went wrong with predators, none of them homosexual, in the Boy Scouts. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-boyscouts-20120805-m,0,5822319.story
9:38 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
@Rebecca, how can you claim a male that likes to have sex with boys is not a homosexual? That is ridiculous. They may be pedophiles too, but they are still homosexual. Also, the word homosexual does not appear in the article you posted. What in it led you to believe that men who abuse boys are not considered homosexual?
I assure you there are gay pedophiles in the world. They even have their own organization. If the BSA were to allow gay scout leaders is it a stretch to think that the gay pedophiles would want to become scout leaders? Can't you understand parents and the BSA wanting to protect their boys from these men?
John B
10:03 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I share your same concern about how we view homesexuality and pedophilia. I don't believe there is no correlation. There are studies that show a direct correlation and other studies that show no correlation. In my mind there has to be some correlation. That said, and in defense of Rebecca, she did state in a post north of these that she would shield her son from the BSA due to predators (pedophiles) not homosexuals as she see no link.
11:13 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
John B and Leigh,
I flagged John B's most recent comment as inappropriate. Citing so-called research by a hate group is not appropriate in a discussion. The Southern Poverty Law Center, which classifies groups as hate groups based on their activities, classified the Family Resource Center as a hate group in 2010.
John B
11:54 pm on Thursday, September 27, 2012
I was unaware they are a hate group as you claim Eve..geez...cite your reference for the claim...Again, the more I researched the more I found much the same information that there is very much a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. I'll post more references or you can just google. In the interim, please post your references to counter. What sources shall we use that you consider credible.
John B
12:16 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
And even if FRC is considered a hate group do they lose their first amendment rights?...not sure you can classify the post as inappropriate...more knee jerk because you might not like what you hear. Again, the more I delve into the topic you will see as many articles that associate as you do that disassociate. Just saying. Not looking for a fight.
John B
1:02 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
a better fair and balanced link. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Spirituality/gay-priests-problem/story?id=10381964
bottom line...very disturbing.
Amy L
7:59 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
From your own link:
Medical professionals agree that the majority of known pedophiles are heterosexual.
The only person in the article who said that there is any link between homosexuality and pedophilia was the cardinal in the catholic church. Go figure...
John B
8:14 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Well Duh Amy...that's why I put up the link. And if you followed my posts I explained I was no resident expert on pedophiles and stated it was a fair and balanced article. But thank you so much for turning the bulb on for me....you have something against Catholics? Sounds intolerant if you ask me.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
6:51 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
"Medical professionals agree that the majority of known pedophiles are heterosexual."
Makes sense, because the largest part of society as a whole is… heterosexual!
Captain Obvious takes flight once again.
Brian Crawford
3:10 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I've been involved in scouting most of my life. Some of my best memories are from scouting events, both with my father and later (as a scout leader) with my son. While I understand the Boy Scouts' long held stance against allowing homosexuals to participate I think it's probably time for change. They didn't seem to mind when my nephew's 6 month old daughter attended his Eagle Ceremony. Societal mores change over time.
6:56 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
The below is worth repeating. The BSA has helped build the future leaders of this country by combining educational activities and lifelong values with fun. The Boy Scouts of America believes — and, through over a century of experience, knows — that helping youth is a key to building a more conscientious, responsible, and productive society. A Scout does not agree with the homosexual lifestyle.
Amy L
7:58 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
This debate boils down to whether or not you believe that sexuality is a choice. If you take the religious or "gut feeling" view that it is a choice, then you can feel justified in excluding people who you feel chose an "immoral" path. If, however, sexuality is inborn like handedness or race, then there is NO justification for excluding people based on it.
Do those of you who are straight choose to be so? Why do you assume that lgbt folks do?
8:13 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Homosexual behavior is a choice just like pedophilia is a choice. They are both wrong, no matter how you look at it. A 1st grader could tell you that you can't attach two bolts together. A bolt goes with a nut to actually work. Even if you don't believe in God, it's blatantly obvious that homosexuality is a dead end and makes no sense whatsoever in the natural world - it's a easy candidate for non-survival of the 'least fit' for all of you natural selection fans.
I will admit there are some that have inclinations towards that behavior, in a similar way that others have a hard time with anger management, alcoholism, or pedophilia. However, that doesn't justify 'giving in' to that temptation.
Amy L
8:20 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Andy, what are you basing that assertion on? Your gut feeling? Do you give in to the temptation to be straight? Do you feel tempted to sleep with men? If not, why do you assume that homosexuals aren't just as certain and steady in their sexuality?
8:28 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I'm not tempted to be straight just like I'm not 'tempted' to be polite to others. I'm not saying it's a choice akin to choosing to put on a red shirt instead of a green shirt. I'm saying they are choosing to give in to the temptation similar to choosing to yell or hit someone out of anger. The 'urges' may be innate, but that doesn't mean they should embrace them or we as a society should celebrate it.
John B
8:30 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Not a choice. Hardwired at conception to be what you are. This coming from a Catholic.
8:32 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
John B,
Are pedophiles and polygomists 'hardwired' as well?
John B
8:37 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I'm of the opinion that polygamists do so by choice. They are not hard wired it's more akin to the alpha male syndrome. Pedophiles on the other hand are hardwired to do or like something that is very unnatural and vile. You have to be hardwired for that type of sickness (IMHO). The only choice I see for pedophiles is the choice to act or not on their desires.
Amy L
8:40 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Why not? Gay people have loving long term relationships just like straight people. Why shouldn't that be celebrated? You may think it is not natural or immoral but that is just your lack of empathy. Why is following your "innate urge" to be with a partner of the same sex in a CONSENTING RELATIONSHIP necessarily a bad thing.
I cap'ed consenting relationship because I know what your next argument will be. Pedophillic urges are wrong because the target of those urges is incapable of consent. We rightly condemn any such act because of the damage it causes to the child involved.
8:50 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
It sounds like you'd support legalizing/legitimizing all "victimless" crimes, such as drugs and prostitution? These behaviors are illegal for a reason. Our wiser forebearers knew that these immoral "victimless" activites degrade society.
One example would be adoption. Any counselor or psychologist would tell you that the best environment for a child is a household with a MOTHER and a FATHER - not two mommies or two daddies. This child will grow up unbalanced and ultimately a victim.
Amy L
8:59 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Prostitution and drug abuse do have victims. We outlaw them for the same reason we mandate motorcycle helmets and seatbelts. "For your own good" laws. These are very grey areas though. Some countries have had success with limited and regulated legalization of drugs and prostitution.
Amy L
9:22 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
As for your completely baseless comment about same sex parenting, Here are the results of just one study I found with a quick google search. So much for "any psychologist will tell you"...
This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. opposite-sex parents); family and relationship variables; and the psychosocial adjustment, school outcomes, and romantic attractions and behaviors of adolescents. Participants included 44 12- to 18-year-old adolescents parented by same-sex couples and 44 same-aged adolescents parented by opposite-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Normative analyses indicated that, on measures of psychosocial adjustment and school outcomes, adolescents were functioning well, and their adjustment was not generally associated with family type. Assessments of romantic relationships and sexual behavior were not associated with family type. Regardless of family type, adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported better school adjustment.
9:29 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Amy, research can work both ways...
The first place I went, here's what I found...
What about the effect of homosexual behavior on society?
In addition to a domestic violence rate that is 20 times higher than among heterosexuals, these are some of the negative effects homosexuality has on society:
Daughters of lesbian "parents" are more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior and experience the consequences of that behavior.
Children of homosexual "parents" do the worst in 9 of 13 acedemic categories when compared with both married heterosexual couples and cohabitating couples.
Homosexual behavior is linked with higher rates of promiscuity, physical disease, mental illness, substance abuse, child sexual abuse and domestic violence--all things that impact society negatively. Don't try to say homosexual behavior doesn't hurt society--it is a major force that tears down society and harms children.
Amy L
9:34 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
This from the American Academy of Pediatrics: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/2/341.short
A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children's optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.
Still further evidence that good outcomes for children come from having loving parents REGARDLESS of the gender of those parents.
9:36 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Care to share the source of that whargarbbll? Thanks
I might ask what you propose to do with all these gay people that God keeps making? Shall we go all "Leviticus " on them ?
Amy L
9:37 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
You will notice, I have cited articles from respected, unbiased, scientific sources.
Racer X
7:58 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
The Boy Scouts of America exists to teach young men how to be good men. Part of being a good man is to learn to be tolerant of others.
Here's the rub, dang it; I wouldn't want my son camping out with a queer kid or a queer Scout leader. I also don't want my kid going after a flower arranging or hair-dressing badge.
Ed's above quote is right on.
If people want to be "different", it's ok with me, but if you want to march to the beat of a different drum, you HAVE to stay OUT of the parade.
Amy L
8:27 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
One of the problems with your argument is that there are already many scouts and scout leaders who are gay. Just like there were many gay service people in the military despite the ban on gays in the military. Also, its funny how you automatically assume gay means fem. You know about 50% of homosexual men are masculine right? They wouldn't like flower arranging or hair-dressing any more than any other straight boy.
Amy L
8:14 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Some links for those of you who haven't already made up your minds:
American Psychological Association:
American Medical Association:
Religious leaders disagree on the meaning and interpretation of passages in holy books. Religious people cherry pick certain passages to follow and most others to ignore. Our professional scientists and doctors DO NOT disagree on the obvious fact that sexuality is NOT a choice. And, if sexuality is not a choice, then discrimination based on sexual orientation is WRONG regardless of where or when it takes place.
8:22 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
What do the "experts" say about pedophiles? Why are some adults 'driven' to pedophilia and others are not? Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying pedophilia and homosexuality are the same. What I am saying is they are similar in that they are both obviously not normal behavior. I am also saying that my theory is that while some may have those urges, urges alone don't justify acting out on those urges.
Amy L
8:32 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
How are they similar? One involves mutual consent between people who share an attraction. The other is predatory, non-consensual, and the attraction is not shared.
8:39 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
They are similar in that they both defy natural order. I will agree one is victimless and the other is not (however, I'm sure NAMBLA would have a different opinion on that). They are also similar in that they are perversions on how our bodies were designed.
I will also state that most people practicing sexually deviant behavior (homosexuality, pedophiila, beastiality, etc...) were themselves either sexually abused as children or had a detrimential family life growing up. This behavior is a less than ideal way to respond to the past abuses.
Amy L
8:48 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Again you sneak in the sexuality is choice argument by saying that homosexuals were likely abused into being so. Sexual orientation is not a choice. I think I have proven that with the links above. By continuing to assert that it is a choice, you prove that you are not one of the open minded people I am trying to reach.
9:02 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I've never understood how people could think that homosexuality is a choice. I have several gay friends, good friends who are amazing people who have said that if given a choice they would not choose to live such a hard lifestyle. Gay people have less rights, are often treated like second hand citizens, and are sometimes forced to hide their feelings because society fears them. It must be a horrible feeling to be treated like less of a person because of who you love. It may seem unnatural to some but those who respond in fear just can't fathom a lifestyle different than their own. I feel sorry for the close minded people of the world that are shutting out a group of people who (in my experience) are in loving and caring relationships. Same sex couples who hold down professional jobs, help their community, and don't have any interest in straight males or young boys. Some of whom might actually want to volunteer their time with kids because they care about children. It pains me to know that these men won't have that chance because people are close minded and afraid.
9:16 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
What you state is an unfortunate consequence of our more permissive society. The more we as a society embrace this behavior and try to justify that it's innate, the more it eliminates hope from people with these urges that there's a way out. If they're continually told that they were born that way, why try to fight it. They then are "forced" to swim upstream against what is "normal" and thus have many difficulties. We are now approaching a tipping point where society is trying to change that stream so that it's not alternative lifestyles going upstream but now traditionalists.
Amy L
9:27 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
That is the way it has worked for all of human history. It is called progress. Old ideas die out with those who stick to them beyond all reason. 50 years ago, we were all having this argument about including black people in our white only schools, lunch counters, restrooms, etc...
9:31 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Maybe traditionalists need to quit worrying about which way people are swimming in the stream. Your fear of change is forcing you upstream. Do you want a way out from the color of your skin (whatever lovely shade that may be)? The history books are full of stories of people being oppressed because of their race. Imagine if society never woke up to that nonsense. You are fighting a non-winning fight, Andy. Gay people don't need to find a way out of their "urges", I think that society needs to rethink giving into the urge to oppress people who are different from them. Just a thought and one that I hope you would open your heart to consider.
9:36 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
With the exception of racial inequality (which was most definitely wrong and unjust), I would say there has been no moral progress. I would much prefer living in the 1950's when I could turn on the TV and let my kids watch Leave it to Beaver and not Modern Family, when over 1 millions innocent babies weren't being killed each year, when I didn't have to shield my 9 year old daughter and 7 year old son's eyes from pornographic magazines at the gas station or near pornographic (Cosmo) at the grocery store, when I didn't have to walk past dozens of signs in the WalMart entry way of kids who are missing b/c they were stolen for indecent purposes, most likely by crazed sex addicts that needed to feed their temptation...
What you call progress, I call depravity of civilization.
9:04 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Just because I interpret my observations, beliefs and the empirical evidence differently than you does not mean I'm not open minded. The likewise could be said as well. I just don't understand why supporters of this activity are too close minded to admit that it's ABNORMAL BEHAVIOR - it doesn't make biological sense. It makes as much sense as a dog trying to mate with a cat.
Amy L
9:12 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
You aren't interpreting the evidence differently. You are ignoring the evidence in favor of your own belief. Are you one of those who believe that educated people like the ones at the APA and AMA linked above are just elitist liberals with an agenda? Is that how you dismiss their findings on the origin of sexuality? If so, then yes... you are close minded and nothing anyone says will ever change that.
John B
9:44 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Unfair of you to call Andy close minded because his moral compass and yours does not align. Two different perspectives that's all.
Amy L
10:00 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
If it were just me arguing against him, you would be right. It is however, him vs all the people who have studied this issue who make up the AAP, AMA, and APA. That is why I can call him close minded. He refuses to acknowledge and intelligently refute the points I have made. He always retreats back to something like "its just wrong".
John B
10:09 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
"It's wrong" to him because that's what his moral compass (inner core) is telling him. Trying to change that is like telling folks to change their sexual orientation. Same thing right?
Amy L
10:18 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Opinions change, sexual orientation does not. His best friend could come out to him as gay tomorrow and Andy would hopefully realize that his OPINION about gays has been wrong all along.
John B
10:58 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I think Andy's perspective is a little deeper than opinion. Yes, opinions change but I'm guessing it's more driven by his morals/values. They don't change so easily.
11:05 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
An individuals personal morals and values cannot and should not be applied to other individuals who may not share them .
9:40 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Please watch this...
This is the same young man who started the change.org petition cited in the story.
9:51 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
i've seen the video several months ago and he's obviously an intelligent, confident and passionate young man.
10:01 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
I'm really happy that you can see that, Andy. It gives me a sliver of hope that you can see that some good can come into this world as a result of homosexuality.
9:48 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
This will be my last post as I need to get to work...
Point 1: Don't equate the civil rights fight w/ gay rights. That argument doesn't work with those that believe gay behavior is a choice, whereas skin color is clearly not. Many black conservatives cringe when that comparrison is made.
Point 2: references supporting traditional household, here are two:
Amy L
10:02 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
"with those who believe (against all evidence to the contrary) gay behavior is a choice"
Fixed that for you Andy.
Amy L
10:09 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
As for your links, first of all, they are from websites with obvious agendas.
Secondly, if there were a correlation between worse outcomes for children of gay parents, do you think it might be because those parents are more likely to have been fired from their jobs, ostracized from friends and family, denied the benefits of legal marriage, or otherwise discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation alone?
10:47 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
The websites may have an agenda; however the studies do not. I don't think Louisianna State University and the University of Texas have an agenda (if so, please explain). Additionally, one of the main findings of the studies was discrediting the one from the APA that you cited..
Amy L
10:52 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
We as a society establish academies and associations of the various sciences so that we can come to a general consensus about what we should study and what we think our results from that study mean. We need this consensus to define our policy on issues that affect our daily lives. Every association of medical and scientific professionals have said that sexual orientation is not a choice. Yes, some individuals have written papers that seem to find otherwise, but they are a vanishingly small minority.
My main point is this: If the consensus of the people who study this issue is that sexual orientation is not a choice, then is it really morally responsible to deny homosexuals ANY freedom given to straight people? Especially since homosexual people are ALREADY included in these groups as long as they keep silent about their orientation? Why should we ban otherwise successful scouts, den mothers, and scout leaders only because we find out they were gay all along?
11:05 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
All the links from the bigots come from religious websites that justify their bias. All the links from others come from science. That tells you all you need to know. You can argue rationally with people who insist on being irrational.
But I appeal to the religious side: Show me where JESUS says one damn thing about gay people. It's not there. It all comes from Paul and others who distorted his message. In fact, Jesus encourage people to be tolerant and accepting of those mainstream society had rejected in their bigotry. Too bad more Christians today aren't more like Jesus.
John B
11:12 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
Sounds like you're intolerant of Christians Eve. Funny how you paint them with a broad brush but you're not a bigot correct? The only bigots you know are the one's that don't agree with your perspective.
Risa Haynes
11:53 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
eve (amy, jesse and anyone else i have left out), you have all done a commendable job trying to inform/educate/open the minds of john b and others like him. and you have provided such irrefutable and unbiased sources and offered such clear and thoughtful ideas to this debate. but the truth be told, the type of people who turn the word "tolerance" into some wicked work of the devil being imposed upon them will never understand. they do not walk in the footsteps of jesus, although they can certainly be considered sheep. their day of reckoning will come, their membership accepted or revoked, though probably not on the factors they considered important. maybe someone reading this who didn't chime in was questioning their pre-fab beliefs, and your intelligent discourse helped open another perspective. but these folks on this thread don't have a clue about the big wide world at their doorstep. it's so funny (i.e.ironic) to hear self-proclaimed christians go on about tolerance when their own religion's origins were once secreted away from the intolerance of the day, their own religions "lifestyle" questioned as an abomination or suspicious. just as homosexuality has had to exist in the shadows, so once did christianity. the really funny thing to me is that religion is more of a "choice" than sexuality. but there we go again, speaking in terms of rational, intelligent, and tolerant. don't get me wrong john b and others, i tolerate your beliefs just barely. your money's green too.
John B
8:15 am on Saturday, September 29, 2012
Hi Risa:
Let me start by presenting you with the same Mensa challenge as I did with Jesse and she failed to answer. Find one of my posts in this thread that's anti-LGBT. You're just another activist who gets caught up in blind rage or better yet just a sheep. For your edification, I support the LGBT community in their quest to find equal footing. That said, I choose not to bash or paint others with a broad brush who aren't aligned with your vision. You (activists) are quick to look for a fight not to fight the fight and subsequently your message becomes distorted and diluted. Now, I can assume you won't be sending me a Christmas card this year either?
Robert E
2:27 am on Sunday, September 30, 2012
The bible is not an excuse for bigotry and hate. Religious bigotry and hate is still bigotry and hate. It really does not matter what the source is. Don't make excuses for homophobia that you wouldn't make for racism. Just imagine a Christian saying:
I have a deep conviction in the authority of the Bible. And the Bible clearly approves of slavery, and in fact commands it in some cases (Exodus 22:3; Deuteronomy 20:10-11, 14). Furthermore, I belive, based on Genesis 9:25-27, that the descendants of Ham are to be the slaves of the descendants of Shem and Japheth, and after deep reflection I've concluded that Africans are the modern-day descendants of Ham. So please don't call my support for enslaving Africans bigotry. It's not. It is a working out of deep convictions.
11:06 am on Friday, September 28, 2012
That should be, you CAN'T argue rationally with people who insist on being irrational.
1:23 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
John B.
Funny, I haven't read anywhere in this thread where Eve is trying to take away the rights of others based on their sexual orientation or making intolerant comments. I'm so over people claiming that gay right supporters are intolerant. If you're so worked up about having someone challenge your viewpoint or the right to your opinion, take a moment to think how homosexuals feel to have their rights challenged. Not just their opinion but basic rights. If the tables were turned and heterosexuals were stripped of basic rights and privilege, I would fight for you too. I actually care about my fellow man, even if they are different from me. The truth is, you're not going to change your viewpoint and the LGBT community isn't going anywhere. If anything, your attitude is strengthening their cause because the more they have to fight in this world, the louder they will get. Homosexuals deserve love and support, just as much as you do. I hope that by the time my children are adults this will be a non-issue because of the conversations that open-minded parents have with their kids about discrimination (of all forms) today. I can only hope that the next generation will do better than us.
1:29 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Oh...just to clarify, I am a straight married woman who happens to love all people. So, I am fighting a fight that's not even mine. I hope that more people will get involved and support the LGBT community, even if they aren't directly affected by it. Because this world belongs to ALL of us, not just the straight people who walk the straight and narrow.
1:31 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
On what basis to you get that I'm "intolerant of Christians"? I am very tolerant and encouraging of Christians who "get it" --- those who are capable of rational discussion, and who believe in this great nation which was founded on the separation of church and state. All others - they have a right to their opinion, but I will fight like hell when they try to impose that opinion on me.
John B
7:01 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Read your post again Eve. I'm done with you. You're a lost cause. I'm moving on to Jesse now.
2:21 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Okay, this is on my heart today, obviously. I can't help but think of these lyrics written by the Christian band, Casting Crowns. I hope that my fellow Christians will read this and maybe rethink their attitude about the LGBT community. Not to get all preachy but come on, if you believe with all your heart that homosexuality is a sin then you have to know Christ loves ALL sinners, not just you!
"Jesus, friend of sinners, we have strayed so far away
We cut down people in your name but the sword was never ours to swing
Jesus, friend of sinners, the truth's become so hard to see
The world is on their way to You but they're tripping over me
Always looking around but never looking up I'm so double minded
A plank eyed saint with dirty hands and a heart divided
Oh Jesus, friend of sinners
Open our eyes to the world at the end of our pointing fingers
Let our hearts be led by mercy
Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Oh Jesus, friend of sinners, break our hearts for what breaks yours"
2:48 pm on Friday, September 28, 2012
Also, this poem says it all:
North Georgia Weather
9:47 am on Saturday, September 29, 2012
Is this the way any of you would be talking in front of a Boy Scout? You sound like a bunch of kids.
This is not about you or your feelings, this is about the rights of a club or organization to make their rules and set their values for what they want their organization to be like. People don't have to like it, and if not, they are free to start their own club.
We no longer have freedom if everyone's values and belief's are forced upon us because it's the politically correct thing to do. But they do have the freedom as a private organization to operate as they desire.
Why is that so hard to understand?
John B
10:22 am on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I don't think it's hard to understand...just not universally accepted as you can see by the posts in this thread.
Racer X
8:27 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
NGW- As usual, we are in agreement. We are raising a nation of spineless whiners. We even elected one as President.
9:49 am on Saturday, September 29, 2012
i grew up in scouting and am an eagle scout ,gays are and will be never welcome in scouting it is a private organsation that is religious from the christian view point . part of the scout law states a scout is reverent a scout is clean . homosexuality is unexceptable to gods law and is deemed unclean . the boyscouts will not except sexual deviants . if they find out your gay or the other kids do they will throw blanket partys for u .
Amy L
2:23 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
"'Observe my regulations. "'Don't let your livestock mate with those of another kind, don't sow your field with two different kinds of grain, and don't wear a garment of cloth made with two different kinds of thread." (Leviticus 19:19)
"Don't round your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27)"
"'A person who curses his father or mother must be put to death; having cursed his father or his mother, his blood is on him." (Leviticus 20:9)
21:17 "Tell Aharon, 'None of your descendants who has a defect may approach to offer the bread of his God.
21:18 No one with a defect may approach - no one blind, lame, with a mutilated face or a limb too long,
(Leviticus 21:17-18)
Lev 25:44 "'Concerning the men and women you may have as slaves: you are to buy men- and women-slaves from the nations surrounding you.
How are you doing holding to these other laws from Leviticus?
Amy L
2:31 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I assume by "if they find out your gay or the other kids do they will throw blanket partys for u" you mean that any kid suspected of being gay would get beaten...
So scouts are "reverent" but would also gang up on and beat up someone because you question their sexuality?
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
2:49 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
Scouts acknowledge faith in GOD, but by their practice don't adhere strictly or solely to Christian tenet values.
Depending on the location, troops and districts are comprised of many or even a majority who claim Christianity. Fine line to be sure BUT it's solid; similar to the one found in the (gasp) Masonic Lodges, a theme for another discussion.
Racer X
12:19 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
The Boy Scouts don't allow gays, period, get over it. Being deviant always comes with a price.
Next thing you know there will be arguments for letting transgender boys into the Girl Scouts.
Be deviant, knock yourselves out. Have a great time. Most people, including me, don't give a darn. Just don't try to force your deviance on the mainstream, it only makes you look worse.
Amy L
2:25 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I'll just copy/paste my earlier comment since you obviously didn't read it. Please attempt to come up with an intelligent response...
We as a society establish academies and associations of the various sciences so that we can come to a general consensus about what we should study and what we think our results from that study mean. We need this consensus to define our policy on issues that affect our daily lives. Every association of medical and scientific professionals have said that sexual orientation is not a choice. Yes, some individuals have written papers that seem to find otherwise, but they are a vanishingly small minority.
My main point is this: If the consensus of the people who study this issue is that sexual orientation is not a choice, then is it really morally responsible to deny homosexuals ANY freedom given to straight people? Especially since homosexual people are ALREADY included in these groups as long as they keep silent about their orientation? Why should we ban otherwise successful scouts, den mothers, and scout leaders only because we find out they were gay all along?
Racer X
8:24 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Amy, I have nothing against gays. In fact, I think gays have a long row to hoe and I know life is tougher for them, I do feel for them.
I don't have any religious objections, I just reserve my right to choose who my son has as role models.
Life is not fair and any Academy or Associations of various scientists who try to tell you it is are just blowing smoke up your skirt.
Good luck in your endeavors, I wish you all the best.
3:00 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
amy ,gays and lesbians have moved into every thread of society to the point now that a few write a paper and state that there sexuality isnt a choice .they sit around on talk shows and proclaim they had no choice ! yet isnt life all about choices .
for good for bad for evil or worse . in the bible it show'd how god dealt with sodom and gommarah so hows that example for u at how god deals with them , so for kids not wanting a gay kid around them staring at them like a piece of meat .kids will police themselves gays carry diseases like aids and std's so even if ur in close to them breathing in there breath as they talk to u can give u there diseases .
Amy L
3:44 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I feel as if I am being trolled but I will respond anyway for the benefit of the others reading this...
You obviously have no understanding of the peer review process. A "few" gay researchers can't just "write a paper" and change the entire collective opinion of our scientific community. First of all, those "papers" have to have real science to back them up before they ever get published and taken seriously. Secondly, the conclusions reached have to be repeated many, many times by many independent researchers. That is how scientific research is done.
Your second "point" about diseases is just your own bigotry talking. You most likely live and or work with someone who is gay. There was probably a gay boy in your scout troop. People like you always assume homosexual men are all limp wristed sissies who will be obvious to spot because they are more feminine. Most gay men are actually slightly MORE masculine than the average straight man. Mike Horsman said above that he didn't want his kids earning hairdressing or flower arranging badges. This attempted dig is just laughable. Do you really think the more feminine boys will be the ones who even want to be scouts?
There are already gay scouts. Gay people already serve as counselors, den mothers, scout leaders. All they want is to not have to fear that some inadvertent facebook post will get them outed and thrown out of an organization that they love.
12:48 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Do you seriously believe that a person breathing on you can give you AIDS or STD's? You can't be fore real, if you really believe this, you have to be the most uneducated and ignorant person on the planet. What year is it in your world? Did you hit your head recently, do you need someone to call help for you? For God's sake, educate yourself...
3:09 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
Leviticus 20:13
New International Version (NIV)
13 "'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Amy L
4:19 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke [reason with] thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." (Leviticus 19: 17-18)
So much for those "blanket parties".
Amy L
7:10 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I hereby declare victory over this thread. If you have a problem with that, READ my earlier posts and at least try to come up with an INTELLIGENT rebuttal.
8:37 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
I hereby declare you irrelevant and nonexistent and void your victory. Sorry, its not a choice; I was born this way. I can't help voiding victories. It's in my nature. I'll write a paper and have it published if I need to prove it.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
11:11 pm on Saturday, September 29, 2012
The winner received the coveted "Legend in their OWN Mind" award...
4:19 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
I struggled with this issue, and ultimately I decided that I would not allow my son to join scouts at this time, even though his sister is in Girl Scouts. Our local group seems very open and welcoming, but I do not want to pay any money to support a national organization that will discriminate. Sadly, there really aren't any alternatives in our area. He'll join other clubs, but not Boy Scouts, unless they change their policy. Luckily, our church is open-minded, so my children are already receiving the message that Jesus does not discriminate. I disagree with the idea that homosexuality is a sin, but even if you choose to believe that it is a sin, ALL of us sin, and Jesus spent a lot of time with sinners. So discrimination against "sinners" is just plain arrogant and hypocritical.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
7:56 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Sad but your son will miss a lot opportunities based on this choice.
But I admit, I stopped supporting the United Way when it attempted to force its view of the world on the scouts. It's one thing to support charitable groups, it's quite another entirely to force policy.
Tammy Osier
11:06 pm on Sunday, September 30, 2012
Yes, He spent a lot of time with sinners so that He could love them unconditionally. For what reason? So, that they would come to Him so that he could cleanse them of their sins and make them holy. That's what his love is about. Putting them in right standing with Him so that He could change them. God does not descriminate in His love for us, but His loving us has a purpose.
But, to get back to the politics of it, Mike is right. A private organization has the right to set their standard. If people who disagree, then they have the "right" to form their own club. Amazing that those who holler so much about rights are the very ones who want to violate those who exercise theirs. Funds get pulled from organizations every day. This one only makes news because someone makes it public so as to have something to argue about.
Amy L
12:31 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
What if instead of banning gays, the scouts banned everyone who is left handed? Would left handed boys who wanted to scout be welcome to form their own club? Does a world in which we have separate clubs for right and left handed boy scouts really sound like a good idea to you?
Do you really think it is right for scouts, scout leaders, counselors, etc who love and support the BSA, but are outed by accident or malice, to be kicked out just because they don't bat for the right team?
Amy L
12:10 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
The only reason I quoted the bible was to showcase the hypocrisy of trying to "live by" some parts of it but not others. Slavery is condoned on the same page that homosexuality is condemned. People who have sex before marriage qualify for the same punishment as men who have sex with each other. Its all a bunch of bullshit about how people lived back then. None of it should have any bearing on how we live today. The mental gymnastics required to apologize for or explain away the obvious contradictory and barbaric nature of the stories in the bible are insane. Watch ANY debate on youtube with Chris Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc... It is hilarious how fast the Theists have to retreat back to Deism. There is absolutely no way to get from a Deist worldview (an entity was responsible for starting this whole mess but doesn't take any part today) to a Theist worldview (omnipresent, omnipotent god who cares what you eat, which way you pray, and who you have sex with.
North Georgia Weather
5:57 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
What a stupid analogy. Grasping at straws?
Amy L
7:23 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
If I am "grasping at straws" it should be easy for you to provide a reasoned rebuttal. Why even bother posting at all if you are only willing to say, " I disagree with you but am unwilling or unable to provide any useful argument."
8:26 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Here's a reasoned rebuttal for you Amy: The Bible is the Word of God. End of conversation.
Amy L
8:48 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Which bible? The current one? The one that has been heavily revised, redacted, and mistranslated? The one that so obviously has no problem with slavery, genocide, and torture? If you were an all powerful, all knowing being, would you really allow your one and only instruction manual for your creations to be so dismally awful?
Robert E
5:31 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
David I have news for you the BSA is not a Christian Organization. I am a practicing Witch and have been a Scout Master for over 30 years. The BSA does not care what religion you practice as long as you beleve in some sort of higher power. We do not teach the bible but encourage the boys to grow in their own faith. I do not discriminate and would accept any boy into my troop regardless of their faith or sexual orientation. What the Boy Scouts does teach is to respect the religious beliefs of others. So if you are looking for a Christian group for your son maybe you would be more comfortable sending your son to Bible Camp.
Racer X
6:28 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Amy, again, I have no religious objections, I just think it's GROSS. And, in the off chance that it's NOT all nature, I don't think heteros should be forced to take a chance with OUR children. It has nothing to do with hate, just trying to raise our kids to be normal, well adjusted young men and women. Just because we don't want our kids to be gay doesn't mean we hate gays, that's just silly.
Amy L
7:17 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
"Just because we don't want our kids to be gay doesn't mean we hate gays, that's just silly."
Actually, your comment proves that you do have at least contempt for gays. No one can change who they are attracted to. If your son is straight, he will remain so no matter how many gays he might meet or "gasp" even be friends with. If your son is gay, one would hope that he could feel free enough to admit it and not live for years in shame and fear of discovery.
Amy L
7:31 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
You guys are really stupid if you think that the current ban on gays is really keeping them out of the scouts. It is true that some will avoid the BSA because they want to make a statement about not supporting it, but I feel many just join anyway and take their chances with discovery. The organization does a lot of very good things and people want to be a part of that. The only thing that will change when the BSA stops banning gays is that the gays ALREADY IN THE SCOUTS will no longer have to be afraid that they will be kicked out.
Racer X
8:33 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Actually Amy, life is especially hard for gays and always will be. That's why I hope my son doesn't turn out that way. I wish for him a normal life. If he turned out to be gay I would love him just as much and be as supportive as I can. I would try my best to understand.
I just don't understand why you expect 98.3% of the American population to blend with 1.7% of the population. Common sense, which our country is running pretty low on, dictates that it would be the other way around.
Amy L
8:57 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Life will not always be hard for gays. Current polls show 80% support for gay rights among people under 26. Their kids probably wont have an issue with it at all.
Amy L
9:31 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
How did you come to the conclusion that it is not working? The continued obstinacy of a couple of people posting relatively weak arguments gives no insight into the opinions of those who are just reading without posting. I know that it is very unlikely that I will change anyone's mind who feels strongly enough to post about it.
John B
9:54 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
You're of the opinion that you've moved the gay acceptance needle for those who aren't posting? I'm thining just the opposite. Your approach is akin to force feeding a kid to eat liver. Here is a quote from Tammy above. "Amazing that those who holler so much about rights are the very ones who want to violate those who exercise theirs." That's the fundamental issue and probably why you get so much push back even from those who may support the same cause.
Amy L
10:21 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
I'm pretty sure white people were pretty ticked off when their "right" to sit at the front of the bus or keep black people out of their businesses was "violated."
Sexual orientation is much the same as race or handedness. And before you make the "false equivalency" argument again, I think the lack of any coherent thought from my opponents in the "it's a lifestyle choice" argument several posts above demonstrates how weak a case they have.
10:57 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
I completely agree with your stated positions and I think you are doing an outstanding job of supporting those positions with facts and evidence .
The fact remains , however that the BSA is a PRIVATE CLUB and , as such has the right to deny membership to whomever they wish on whatever criteria they choose to set. Indeed they could bar entry to lefties if they chose to .
John B
11:02 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Sorry Amy but another dumb analogy. The fact is no one will be able to post anything that contradicts your stand that will sound remotely intelligent to you because...well it doesn't support your cause. It's apparent that you are surrounded by idiots. You have already claimed victory.......so what's left for you to accomplish?
11:09 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
Brilliant response John,
Completely devoid of any sort of evidence or even any attempt at intelligent discourse with a healthy dose of pointless name calling as a cherry on top .
Might I ask what you feel is accomplished by that?
Amy L
11:43 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
The BSA still receives preferential treatment by the government. For instance, they receive reduced or waived fees for use of government land and buildings. Most of the direct support has been stamped out, but they aren't entirely private.
John B
1:19 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Hi Grant:
Name calling? Reading is fundamental. No name calling in my reply to Amy. Now, if I called you a dolt because you lack in comprehension skills that would be name calling. I certainly wouldn't do that.
3:28 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
John B writes
"It's apparent that you are surrounded by idiots. "
I'll skip the apology thanks
Have a nice day
John B
3:47 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
I consider Amy intelligent and articulate even if I don't agree with her convictions but only an idiot would consider "someone being surrounded by idiots" as name calling. No apology here. Have a spendid day. And please don't try to help Amy, she is doing fine without you.
Amy L
4:17 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
You misunderstood what he meant with the "idiots" comment. He thinks that I am sitting here all smug and superior and nothing anyone says that contradicts my worldview has any value. That is simply not true. I am attempting to have an intelligent conversation. People keep throwing up strawmen, red herrings, and attacking me. It is hard to not let a little of my frustration with this show.
John B
6:55 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Thanks for dumbing it down for Grant. Sometimes his chin strap is buckled too tight. No apology needed Grant.
Anyway, your assesement is spot on. That said, I think the same of those who are on the opposite side of the aisle. Bottom line is it's difficult to have "intelligent" discussions when subjects are inherently controversial and subsequently bring out a lot emotion. Some are better than others but I think you've admitted sometimes even the most level headed and even tempered person can get sucked into the fray?
Racer X
9:11 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
I am one of the 80% who believe in gay rights. Unfortunately for you, I also believe in straight rights. You can not infringe on the rights of 98.3% of the population to protect the rights of 1.7%, it's really just a math thing.
Yes, life will always be harder for gays and yes, it is a bummer.
Now, I need to get some work done. It's time for you to put on your big girl panties and maybe think about doing the same thing.
10:57 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
RE: "I also believe in straight rights."
I wasn't aware that there were any "straight rights." What straight rights are others trying to infringe upon? As a straight man, I'm incensed.
Racer X
11:45 am on Monday, October 1, 2012
They are infringing on the right of a private organization to exist based on a set of moral and religious principles that have been in place since day one.
12:15 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
By not shopping, joining, or donating to an organization, and encouraging others to do likewise, then I'm infringing on their right to exist?
If I decide not to purchase Dixie Chicks music because of a few choice words that they made before an audience, then I'm infringing on the right of a private organization to exist? If I decide to shop at Lowe's instead of Home Depot because Home Depot supports gay marriage rights, then I'm infringing on the right of a private organization to exist?
Or do you have a double standard? One for organizations and causes that you support and another for organizations and causes that you oppose?
1:38 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
"Boycott growing: 500,000 pledge to boycott The Home Depot": http://www.afa.net/Detail.aspx?id=2147504058
Racer X
3:04 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Whoa big boy. I believe I worded my response improperly. Let's try this:
They are declaring the right of a private organization to exist based on a set of moral and religious principles that have been in place since day one to be wrong, which is to deny the BSA's rights to their own beliefs.
Y'alll keep it up though. Chik-fil-a has enjoyed an enormous amount of popularity since this was tried with them, making them stronger than ever. The same result will come for the BSA from all this whining as well.
5:38 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Re: "They are declaring the right of a private organization to exist based on a set of moral and religious principles that have been in place since day one to be wrong, which is to deny the BSA's rights to their own beliefs."
Pro-gay rights advocates are declaring the "right of a private organization to exist...is wrong?" Pro-gay rights advocates are denying the BSA the "rights to their own beliefs?"
Applying your logic, anti-gay rights advocates have declared that the "right of a private organization [Home Depot] to exist is wrong." Anti-gay rights advocates are denying the Home Depot the "right to their own beliefs?"
Whoa big boy. You can't have it both ways.
Racer X
7:53 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
C.J.- This discussion is about the BSA, not Home Depot. Again, please boycott the BSA, that would be awesome. It'll give the BSA a great boost, just like Chik-fil-a.
Allison Knight-Khan
12:57 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
When I lived in Canada, a female teacher told me that a man asked her to go camping with the scouts. She agreed because she thought he must like her to ask her to go camping. It turned out that he was using her as his cover, because he was gay. I felt her betrayal, but as a mother of two boys in cub scouts, I would not want my boys on that weekend campout.
The problem here is that gay people are happy to join, but there is no danger to them. I understand that the woman got her feelings hurt, but that does not mean that BSA should be forced to accept gay men, where they have access to young boys. Look at the Catholic church...need I say more? A friend at University told me that all the other priest were gay except for one other, who turned out to be a boy from my home town.
When the United church decided to accept gay ministers, they were heartbroken because it was an end of "family values." They were right.
The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community told the government, in Canada, that they should not accept gay marriages.
I am not anti-gay. One of the nicest bosses I ever had was gay, but I would not send my son out on a camping trip with him. I want my son to be straight. The prayer I pray every day as a Muslim includes: "Guide us on the straight path, not the path that goes astray or gets us burned in the fire."
The straight path is straight. Tne One God intended one man to marry one woman.
Amy L
1:05 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Allison, your irrational fears were already addressed by others and myself in posts far above this one. Please try to read what has already been covered before you just post the same tired argument that has already been discredited.
John B
1:24 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
So should we lump Muslims under the same umbrellas as Christians and label them as intolerant? Just checking.
1:38 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
The fact that you discredit her argument doesn't make it discredited. If everyone but you accepts it, would you still consider it discredited? Yes, because you are very close minded on the issue (bigoted?).
Why are you so angry, Amy? I realize its difficult to read emotions in electronic postings but without a doubt, everything you post seems filled with hate. Lighten up. You're not going to sway the 98.3%. Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you.
2:39 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
RE: "Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you."
I agree. Who cares if women use abortion as a form of birth control? They're not my children. Who cares if Iran gets a nuclear weapon and blows Israel off the map? I don't live there. Hell, I'm not even Jewish.
Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you. Best advice I've heard in a long time.
3:01 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
CJ, that doesn't even make sense. How does maintaining a rule concerning gays in the BSA relate to mass murder and world war?
Amy L
3:47 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
He is pointing out the irony of conservatives railing against government intervention except when it is to support causes they care about.
3:52 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
How are they related? Neither discrimination of gays in the Boy Scouts, nor mass murder of Jews in Israel affects me. You specifically said, "Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you."
Allison Knight-Khan
4:10 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Amy, name calling never got anyone anywhere and as a reply it does not work here, either. If God, who created you and me, intended man to marry a woman, there is nothing "tired" about it.
You sound very defensive about gays. Why is that?
4:13 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Interesting . Tell me , why does God keep making all of these gay people?
Amy L
2:23 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Where did I reference her faith? Sure its just as loony as every other religion ever fabricated by men, but not necessarily any more or less intolerant.
Amy L
3:22 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Of course. Se my post concerning the difference between Deism and Theism. No one can disprove a "prime mover", but there is no reason to believe anything beyond that.
Amy L
2:36 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Since you insist on a reprint, as we discussed above, banning gays from the scouts offers ZERO increased safety from pedophiles. The science says that 90% of known pedophiles are HETERO. Even if you don't accept that and say that they must be lying or confused about their sexuality, do you really think banning them is keeping them out? All the BSA is doing by completely banning all gays is keeping those who follow the rules out. It's like the argument over banning guns, only the law abiding citizens would end up without them.
3:04 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
I've made ZERO comments about pedophiles. Please keep track of the discussion and don't change subjects to confuse the issue.
Again, quit being so angry. You're going to give yourself a stroke.
BTW, how are you connected with the BSA? You have a girl's name so I assume you're not planning to join.
Amy L
3:19 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
You didn't make the comment, but you defended Allison's assertion that allowing gays would mean more danger for her kids.
I think you are confusing anger with exasperation. It is tiresome to refute the same arguments time after time. I'd like to have a real discussion but it seems all you can do is question my state of mind and motives. How about actually trying to frame a convincing argument that isn't just an attack on the messenger so to speak.
5:49 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Uh, Venturing? Leadership role in the pack or troop? Plenty of opportunities for females to join the BSA. Are you worried about your sons going camping with women and girls?
Allison Knight-Khan
4:14 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Amy L, I think you are missing a very big point. I said that I would not send my boys on a camping trip with a gay man. That is what I would do. You are free to do whatever you want.
Gays are free to make their own choices, but I would not choose one to babysit my children, nor would I put them under their care. It isn't about pedophilia. It's about being straight.
Amy L
4:30 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
"I am not anti-gay. One of the nicest bosses I ever had was gay, but I would not send my son out on a camping trip with him. I want my son to be straight."
So you still believe homosexuality is a choice? Why do you believe that anyone can change the sex that they are attracted to? Are you aware that the science on this issue does not support that opinion? I believe you are the one who missed a big point. Try hitting page up a few times.
Amy L
4:48 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
"It isn't about pedophilia. It's about being straight."
Then why even mention pedophilia in your first post?
Amy L
4:50 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
"I would not send my boys on a camping trip with a black man."
See what I did there?
Michael k
4:24 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Yeah Amy. The gay might rub off.
How do you NOT get that?
Tammy Osier
8:00 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
OK. Here's the reason most people have a problem with it when it comes to kids. Comparing this to handedness and race, is silly and irrevelant and heres why. Most (not all) of the gay population, at least those in the limelight, make it about sex, people get nervous. When you think "gay", sex comes immediately to mind. Heterosexuals don't talk around talking about their sex life or inject it into every conversation. If they did, around children, they'd be asked to leave. I remember years ago, the Disney debacle, where gays, to make a point went to disney and did some acts in public that would have the average Joe arrested. Just sayin' that you can't compare the two, and the fact that sex seems to be uppermost in the mind when you talk about the subject, you can see why it's different. Handedness and race have nothing behavioral to cause anyone to shun them. Unfortunately, gays, when misbehaving publically, have done so.
Having said that, I know people who are gay are are not like that at all. I feel sorry thatt hey have to be judged by what their population does, but it is what it is in that circumstance.
Amy L
8:46 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
I assume you are referring to the "Gay Days" celebration that has been going on at Disney World in Orlando since 1990. I had to google it. What do you really think is more likely: That people who are ordinarily unable to publicly express affection for each other go to this party with thousands of like minded people and go a little crazy to blow off some steam? Or, as you said in your post above, they "misbehave publicly" because they always "make it about sex?"
You have the privilege of walking down the street holding hands with your partner without having to worry about someone driving by screaming ugliness at you just for who you are. You don't have to worry that a picture of you at a party just kissing someone might get you fired from your job. If you really know people who are gay then why does your empathy for them stop at only feeling sorry for the prejudice they face?
Amy L
9:04 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Just going to copy/paste my earlier post here since it is relevant to her point and I am feeling lazy:
"You guys are really stupid if you think that the current ban on gays is really keeping them out of the scouts. It is true that some will avoid the BSA because they want to make a statement about not supporting it, but I feel many just join anyway and take their chances with discovery. The organization does a lot of very good things and people want to be a part of that. The only thing that will change when the BSA stops banning gays is that the gays ALREADY IN THE SCOUTS will no longer have to be afraid that they will be kicked out."
I re-posted this because it illustrates why the handedness argument is relevant. Lets say the BSA had a ban on left handed people. Hypothetical left handed kid REALLY wants to join boy scouts because his brother was an eagle scout or something. He could practice like hell at pretending to be right handed and possibly become almost as good. He would still be left handed though. He would have to constantly fear that a thoughtless gesture would "out" him and get him banned.
"Handedness and race have nothing behavioral to cause anyone to shun them."
If you really believe gay people deserve what they get because they make other people uncomfortable just by being who they are then we really don't have anything more to say to each other.
Robert E
11:26 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Heterosexuals don't talk around talking about their sex life or inject it into every conversation. Obviously you have never been camping with 20 boys that all they talk about. The boys forget that tent walls do not stop sound when you listen to them at night all they talk about is their girlfrends.
Michael k
8:49 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
When is a moderator going to remove the NJ4America posting?
As far as gay being all about sex talk, that's an interesting perspective. I disagree. I've never had a conversation with anyone about his or her gay sex life but it may be that I'm the exception. I certainly wouldn't want an adult discussing sex with my child in any manner.
Has the BSA specifically banned prostitutes? I would think they would be talking about sex all the time as well since it is their job. And maybe strippers. Hermaphrodites also. It isn't their job but the sex subject might come up too often.
This certainly makes more sense than the gay rubbing off.
Tammy Osier
9:36 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Amy I wasn't talking about holding hands. You missed the initial coming out (must be young) - it was kind of graphic. I noted the rest of your post - twice assuming I said something I didn't. Did I say anyone deserved anything? No I didn't. Sorry, but I don't make it a habit to converse when the conversation becomes a twisting of my words. And I was being general, trying to show why I believe some people think the way they do.
Bottom line is that a private organization has the right to set the standard for their PRIVATE organization. I just can't help but think that there was more to the original story for this to even be news.
9:43 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Just sharing a link: http://www.inclusivescouting.net/
Tammy Osier
9:51 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Good article. Here's an excerpt from the gay male that wrote it "..NEVER ONCE was I treated any differently than any other guest – it was a non issue – the way it should be. That's Disney's policy and it's a good one. In return for that, my partner and I act appropriately when we're in public – the way any couple should – straight or gay. And before I get any emails from my gay brethren calling me a 'self loathing aunt tom' (someone actually called me that once), let me be clear – I'm proud of who and what I am. I just don't feel the need to force feed it to the world in that way. Disney is a place where reality is suspended, at least for a time. It's not a place for anyone's political agenda – right or left."
"....and in my opinion, deformed into what is now nothing more than a vile spectacle of self indulgence and indecency. No matter how prudish that last sentence may sound, trust me – I'm no prude. I have a liberal streak that cuts through me like a hot knife through butter, but I like to think that I was raised with a certain sense of decency and a pretty good sense of right and wrong. There is a time and a place for everything, and Disney World is neither in this instance."
I think he helps me rest my case. People see and hear that and form their opinions from what is made public.
9:21 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Yeah ...
Are you ctually reading what you write at this point Tammy?
It's a good thing heterosexuals have NEVER acted inappropriately in public. That NEVER happens but if it did it would make all heterosexuals look bad and cause issues for other heterosexuals who had nothing to do with those inappropriate acts..
Do you see the folly in your attempt at cogent argument? Or shall I further illustrate the apparent disconnect by providing links to a few hundred instances of public sexual misconduct by heteros?
Interesting (but rather typical of you) that you have a token gay friend who talks about sex all the time and you conclude from that that it is some sort of trait shared by all homosexuals.
Allison Knight-Khan
10:13 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
I would like to congratulate Leigh Hewett for writing a great article that started a fire!
Leigh Hewett
10:56 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Thanks Allison and thanks to everyone for reading and joining in the discussion. With the exception of a few wackadoo intense exchanges, I think that many of you have held down some amazing and respectable debates. My hope was to get people talking and you guys have certainly hit this from almost every angle. Thanks again for all the comments.
Allison Knight-Khan
10:18 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Amy L, you have the right to your opinion, your lifestyle and your choice of religion and I have a right to mine. Inshallah, God-willing, I will pass my beliefs on to three beautiful children. God bless!
Tammy Osier
10:37 pm on Monday, October 1, 2012
Alison - as I said a little while ago, it baffles me that the people who holler the most about rights want to take up a full page arguing against your rights when you express your right to your belief. Amazing.
Watch out now, you'll soon be denigrated for passing your beliefs on to your children because some don't agree with them (just giving you a warning-lol). I'd like to congratulate you and others for not resorting to name calling and condescension, and twisting your words. Taking either the high road or low road reveals much about the writer in my opinion. You have taken the high road and have a lot of courage.
Tammy Osier
6:38 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
But Robert, adults are not talking about theirs to little boys. I think that's what some are trying to say that they want to be cautious of.
Racer X
7:42 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
I think the fact that this is even an issue illustrates how far from common sense we have strayed in the interest of "Political Correctness".
The BSA is a time honored American tradition. That organization has had more influence in shaping today's real men than any other. Even Obama was a Boy Scout....oh.....wait a minute.......I forgot, uh......never mind. Now that I think about it, that explains a lot.
Get ready Far Left cry babies, the Scouts are coming.
Robert E
1:29 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
This ban is not just about gay scout leaders but gay scouts as well don't you think they could benifit from the values scouting teaches? "The BSA is a time honored American tradition." so was slavery to bad the Far Left cry babies ruined that too Mike.
Michael k
9:21 am on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
If your objection is political correctness run amok, ok. If it is that BSA is a private organization and can decide its policies, ok.
If your objection is that you don't want gays around your children because "Heterosexuals don't talk around talking about their sex life or inject it into every conversation" then you are insane.
If you objection is "Gays are free to make their own choices, but I would not choose one to babysit my children, nor would I put them under their care. It isn't about pedophilia. It's about being straight." You may not be a bigot but you aren't taking the high road.
8:22 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
a while back ago an eagle scout actually came out and said he was giving back his eagle badge ,because he didnt like the way scouting didnt like gays agenda and felt it was unfair !
he mailed it back ,what was bsa comment ?
that boy spent years listening to the scout law and oath he knew what was up !morraly straight means morraly straight ,not turning to tha left .
Scott Terry
10:22 pm on Tuesday, October 2, 2012
Well, if that "morraly straight" scout was illiterate, he has probably failed at everything in life.
Scouts succeed from intellect and knowing the correct reaction in any given situation. You, clearly have not the intellect nor common sense of a scout. For these reasons, the scouts would prefer that you no longer speak on their behalf going forward.
Good Day Sir!
J Wo
2:07 pm on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
Morally straight means not discriminating against someone just because you disagree with them, because they are a different race, religion or anything else. Morally straight means accepting people who are different and that you disagree with. Morally straight is also spelled with one r in morally.
J Wo
2:03 pm on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
As an Eagle Scout, I think the BSA has the right to discriminate as they see fit since they are a private organization. As an Eagle Scout I am also ashamed at how the BSA doesn't practice what it preaches. They discriminate and didn't report sexual crimes to the police... somethings wrong. I know that they BSA's action have tarnished my Eagle Scout award.
There is alot good with the BSA, but apparently there is also alot that is shameful and regrettable.
Racer X
8:01 am on Thursday, November 22, 2012
Obviously the Scouts should report any kind of abuse to authorities.
As far as discrimination goes, the Scouts are taking boys and helping to teach them how to be men, not pansies.
Gays, have fun, knock yourselves out, most people don't care one way or the other, but there is one great truth that can never be ignored:
If you are going to march to the beat of a different drum, you have to stay out of the parade.
6:25 am on Thursday, November 22, 2012
j wo ,it would possibly be best if u jus returded ur eagle badge ,with that R an with a letter of shame ! an see if they care . the boy scouts dont want gays in there ranks or flamin scouts . there badges most of them are .red white and blue .
not the color of tha rainbow
Racer X
8:06 am on Thursday, November 22, 2012
There is the BSA and there is the GSA, which are based on which sex a kid is and their respective normal sexual orientation. Why don't those who don't fit into those two categories start the QSA? Problem solved.
Ned Lane
3:16 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
i am disappointed in the Boy Scouts intolerance. I think boys who may one day turn out to be gay, and boys who will turn out to be hetero, could benefit from being boy scouts.
5:13 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
just because obama and mit romney said something dosnt always mean its true ,these guys told lies and bent the truth to get elected .thay will tell u anything for a vote there pas track record on gays were that THAY were against gays .but come near election time ,THAY changed there tune jus to get votes .!
the boy scouts have codes ,laws and moto ,they live by !
using the bible and teaching boys cleanliness both morally and externally .
homosesexuality is against god laws .
and the bible CLearly states what will happen to gays and that THAY are unclean
chatholics make up most of scouts and they would pull there funding and scouting would stop .
as far as tha military goes u may here gays are allowed but out in tha field its a tottaly diff ball game ..blanket partys with rifle buts are tha norm with scouts tha boys dont like being around gay boys and will torment themb with blanket partys .
smearing beanut butter and jelly all ova the inside of there sleepin bags and clothes so ants will get on them . hiding there things soaking all there things with water so THEY will spend a cold nite in tha woods .
by morning tha gay boys are always whinin and wantin there momas and jus to get a ride home .
boys are ruthless way more than regular society and dont wana be viewd as a side of meat in tha meat market .
gays dont belong in tha military or scouting
Robert E
5:24 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
As a Scoutmaster let me set this straight the BSA is not a Christian organization and is open to boys of all faiths and is in no way based on the bible. The only religious requirement is that they believe in some sort of higher power everything else is between the boy and his god. Part of being a Scout is respecting the rights of other scouts to believe what they want. Don't forget not all Religions consider homosexulaty to be a sin not even all denominations of Christianity feel it is a sin.
Racer X
8:06 am on Wednesday, March 6, 2013
thcooper69- Your spelling, grammar and punctuation are atrocious. No matter what you write, you are going to look ignorant unless you get it together. Please tell me you are in the second grade.
5:50 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
thcooper69, it sounds to me like the mean boys need to learn how to treat others. Whether BSA is a Christian organization or not, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't condone treating people like you describe. If scouting permits such cruel behavior among boys, maybe no one belongs in the Boy Scouts. I certainly hope that your experiences are the exception and not the norm.
Robert E
11:04 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Maureenfh that kind of neanderthal behaviour would not be tolerated in any Scout Troop that I know of. This goes against everything the Boy Scouts stand for.