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What is largest Nazarene church, by Sunday morning attendance, led by a pastor under 30? Under 25?
This question is based on one of my hidden agendas? I'm gonna keep it hidden but a hint is 1 Tim 4:12
What is largest Nazarene church, by Sunday morning attendance, led by a pastor under 30? Under 25?
This question is based on one of my hidden agendas? I'm gonna keep it hidden but a hint is 1 Tim 4:12
I am not sure how we could find this out, but my hunch is that the largest church pastored by a minister under 25 would likely be smaller than 100.
As for the largest with an under 30 pastor, I have no idea.
I am wondering why headcount matters in relation to the scripture you quote, Dan? Is there a correlation?
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 LaughingDavid Graham, Dennis M. Scott - "thanks" for this post
I'm glad you asked It has absolutely no relationship to the Scripture I quoted. It has to do with my perception of how we measure success, level of responsibility, or level of importance. This is the other side of my brain working through a train of thought that thinks an elder=an elder=an elder; 15 or 115.
I also think that we have assigned a higher level of importance on primarily administrative functions versus the primarily pastoral functions, but that might be another topic thread.
Michael, I was part of a board that called a pastor under 30 to a church of ~ 200, though I think that is rare. I think you are in effect, correct, with your assumption, which would lead to my follow-up question, Why?
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingMarian Schwaller Carney - "thanks" for this post
Probably for the same reasons you don't see very many CEO's under the age of 25 or 30 in very large companies. Even with extremely talented people and high quality education it takes time to learn the skills necessary to lead larger organizations. There are some extraordinary people that can pull it off very young but most of the rest of us have to work through the learning curve.
I don't think there is any inherently greater value/spirituality etc in a pastor of a larger church but there is a different skill set in play. (Probably more business related than spiritual) Smaller church pastors may have this as well. We just have evidence of it in someone who has been the pastor of a larger church.
Last edited by Craig Laughlin; April 27th, 2012 at 07:30 PM. Reason: spelling
It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingMeghan Schoonover - "thanks" for this post
I think it is interesting that you connect this with the business world. I have a friend in the business world to observed to me that if business worked the way churches do, we woud be in bad shape. His point of reference was the way young leaders are set up. In business, if you have a promising young leader, he says they are put in situations where they will accumulate lots of quick, easy successes. His observation of the church is that often the promising young pastors are put in the most challenging small churches where they are constantly frustrated and often see themselves as failing...
Perhaps another slant on Dan's question might be, how many Elders under the age of 40 are on any district committees... DAB, Studies, Credentials, Finance, Camp, NYI, NMI, SS, whatever? I was talking with a friend, and off the top of our heads, of all those positions, we came up with 2. One on NYI and one on Studies. There may be others, we just couldn't recall any.
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I like it, I like it a lot. I would like to keep the questions to 30 and below though.
I remember a recent conversation where I was pshawed (a polite form of you must be crazy) for suggesting that a 15 year old could be a full board member (NYI president in this case.) The "end all" argument was that a 15 year old could not be trusted to be discrete enough for executive sessions. My response was that I viewed 15 year old, immature pre-adults, as more reliable than 50 year old gossips.
In case you haven't figued out where I am coming from, I view the potential of a young adult's contribution as equal to the potential of a mature adult's contribution. When asked by this same group where I thought teens should be serving, I said, "Everywhere, has no teen expressed a call to the preaching ministry? If so, why haven't they preached yet?"
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Another slant would be to ask how many of your districts have a formal mentoring program for young pastors? Follow-up, if you have formal mentoring program do you use it and how effective is it?
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I'm 29. I pastor a church that has a membership of 256 and we currently run 80-95 on any given Sunday. Had 150 on Easter Sunday morning. I currently serve on our district's NYI council and district vice-president.
I won't be ordained until 2013 which means I won't be eligible to sit on other boards, e.g. studies, credentials, dab, etc... until then.
Our district does have an intentional mentoring program. I am currently a part of a leadership class that meets once a month with our DS. 7 of us meet to discuss leadership, social trends in our culture and churches and we also examine ourselves and how we can become better pastors and leaders. The DS also includes a "how to session" each month. How to hold an annual meeting, how to have a difficult conversation, how to take in new members, and other topics of that nature.
I hope this information helps with your research.
Post Thanks / Like - 8 Thanks, 0 LaughingMark Bolerjack, Rich Schmidt, Scott Sherwood, Mike Schutz, Eric Frey, Dennis M. Scott, Todd Erickson, Hans Deventer - "thanks" for this post
Dan, keep in mind regional differences. New England just does not have the bigger churches as much of the rest of the country. We do take "Live Free or Die" pretty individually up here The side effect of which is, lots of us are bi vocational -- there just is not the money for full time paid positions. That kind of life takes some maturity to sustain, although it is not exclusive to those of us over 30 by any means.
Yeah, I think you are right. When I was in the business world I had several mentors that both helped me a lot and "promoted" me to the higher ups. When I left I was in line for a very high paying job and was considered the front runner. I was 29. I benefited from the fact that I had been blessed with some very talented mentors that enjoyed investing in the next generation and ran interference for me.
I actually think the best preparation for a larger church is probably being a staff member in a larger church. especially if the Sr. likes to mentor. The skills for a church in the 40's and a church in the 400's are very different. (I've done both) I've noticed that a lot of the pastors of larger churches never pastored smaller churches. They were associates for 10+ years in big churches then go to a church of 150 to 200+ as Sr. Pastor.
I would love to see a real mentoring program among clergy but (at the risk of getting myself in trouble) I don't want to invest myself in someone who doesn't have his/her act together and there are way to many pastors that fit that category. So "imposed" systems aren't going to work well. Rather we need to find a way to create a rich environment to grow mentoring connections.
It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 LaughingMarsha Lynn, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post
It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.
The Illinois district has one. It is still new and I am just getting into it because I was part of a different mentor group as part of MA at Olivet. Because of it's newness there are still some kinks to work out, but this is an area that the district leadership has noticed needing to be addressed. Pastor's shouldn't just be thrust into a church and left to fend for themselves, the district needs to support its pastors, especially the young/new ones who are still having their ministries shaped.
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 LaughingDavid Graham, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post
Dan, we (Netherlands District) have linked each young pastor, or in not young but just starting as a pastor, to a seasoned pastor.
And we are actively involved with the Eurasia Leadership Development Initiative, training young leaders, not just in isolated meetings, but also linking them with mentors.
Our district has a focus on LDI.
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We elected an elder who was 29 at the time of the election to the DAB in Marc. My current DS was below 40 when he was elected DS. I myself was elected district secretary when I was 29. Was elected to the church board of the Dutch Reformed Church I was a member of in those days when I was 23.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingGreg Gates - "thanks" for this post
The direction here seems to be that of placing younger pastors in larger established churches. I agree that many younger pastors have the skill level to be effective in such positions. I also know that some (many?) older pastors do not. Here's the question that bugs me: Why is it that so very few of us have the ability to assume the leadership of a church -- any size, but particularly a smaller church -- and build it into a growing, vibrant, church. Why do the vast majority of us remain stagnant or show little growth over time? Also alarming to me, is the numerical decline in churches that were once large, strong churches that provided leadership by example on the district level. I have seen many like that who now struggle to keep the doors open. One other thing: My guess is that the vast majority of our new church plants are now "house churches" or focused on minority populations. Don't get me wrong. I am glad for both of those, but I wonder why we do not plant more new churches that are aimed at the "Anglo" community anymore? My guess is that most of the church closures in the U. S. are churches that were formerly regarded as mostly white churches.
I think that part of the answer lies in the economic challenges. (salary, housing, benefits, etc.) Economically, it is much more difficult to pastor a smaller church. Combine that with the other stressful issues of pastoring a small church and it can be overwhelming. I also think that the mindset today when someone is entering the ministry is different than it was 45 or 50 years ago; I think that part of that is because of the difference in education and educational investment. Of course, technology and culture also impact it greatly.
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In the day when Church Properties Board was elected, at age 27, my name appeared on the ballot against a distinguished, capable and very experienced incumbent. The DA vote turned out to be a tie, and we had to vote again. Apparently, delegates voted for the young guy, and I was elected, although I had absolutely no experience to bring to the table. I attended meetings, and the other candidate was quickly appointed to fill a vacancy. His was pretty much the only meaningful voice on the board. Granted, it was for me a learning experience, but I went on to focus in other areas. Grateful for the opportunity.
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingGreg Gates - "thanks" for this post
I once attempted to get myself nominated to the church board as a teen so that we would have a voice. The teens even began doing a little bit of campaigning. This church had elections during a service with open nominations. During the process one of the retired pastors stood up and declared that all board members should be land owners. I still can't believe they went for that. Let's take a teen who is showing initiative and interest in the church and shut them down. Really? Don't we believe that a more mature teen could have something to offer? Regarding executiive sessions, how well do some of the more mature adults keep things to themselves?
I was in another church and our group of 30 somethings had been trying for years to get someone on the board. I once got left off the nominations because I didn't tithe by check or envelope. Each year we would get somebody nominated only to have them not get voted in.
I finally got appointed to a different committee by the pastor and eventually was voted the chairman of that committee which gave me a seat on the board by virtue of my position.
No wonder more pastors are going to in house nominations with no yes votes.
Of course many churches like the one I serve now simply have everyone who is eligible and willing to serve on the board and would love to have choices.
Not sure what my point is. Just rambling based on previous comments.
It would be unlikely to see a young pastor called to a big church. More likely that the young pastor started the church or took a small church big.
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingSusan Unger - "thanks" for this post
I think this has alot to do with preparation. The way big churches and small churches operate and are lead are VERY different. At this point, all I can speak from is my personal experience. I have an undergrad degree in Youth Ministry and an MDiv. I can tell you that both taught ministry from a "large church" perspective. I am not sure this was intentional, but it was clear. Most of the practics profs were big church pastors (Dan Boone, David Busic, Wayne Sharpes, Bruce Petersen, et al). I was even told that if I had any interest in teaching practics then I need to pastor a large church because that is what schools want taught (by one of my professors). So the education is geared toward leadership in large churches. My training is similar. I grew up in a church 300+. During college I attended and did my internship at a church 700+. In seminary I attended and was on staff at a church 150+ but because it was in KC it was very different than the typical church its size. We had 5 on staff and a couple of the lay leaders were seminary grads. It operated almost identical to the church of 700 I attended in college. That is my education/training. Then out of seminary I took a church of 60. Almost nothing I learned of leadership and programming was applicable. None of my experience was applicable. I was completely unprepared for solo ministry in a small struggling church. I still have to work hard to not default to all my education/experience in big church leadership. I don't know if this helps answer your question or not, but this has been one of my bigger struggles in ministry and I think it might shed some light on your question.
All of the above
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A quick note on relative competencies. Most professions if have dealt with believe that because they are competent in their profession, they can also be competent in mine. There are competent administrators who are also competent doctors (who I work with daily) and preachers (who I care about most). However, preachers just like doctors are not taught to be administrators, nor are they even taught leadership skill sets. Both groups only have what they bring with them in those terms. They are spending all their academic time on their specialty. So, ecept for the very few (both Doctors and Clergy), we automatically promote them into leadership (primarily administrative in nature) and in some cases purely administrative positions.
My general observation is that a doctor who becomes an administrator (does not see patients) is no longer a doctor. My corrolary is that a preacher who does not fill a pulpit is no longer a preacher. Granted both groups need teachers from that profession. In practice you need a chief of the medical personnel or a chief of the theologians. In general neither are competent (unless they bring it with them) to handle the administrative tasks associated with the buisness aspect of thei professions.
This is diverted from the topic. So back to my original topic. An ordained Elder, regardless of age is fully qualified for their profession. That they do not have other skills necessary to run the church does not follow. The charge is to Preach the Word, not be CEO of the Church. Let your trustees take care of that. If you have eliminated the trustee designation from your board, maybe you should bring it back.
This resonates with me, as I spend all week in the business environment. I am working to keep the language and systems of business out my church language and perspective. There is useful experience there of course - I tap into it all the time to pastor. But, I try to do that with the vision of a shepherd, not a sales rep.
I deliver a sermon, but I am not going to think of my sermon as a 'deliverable'. It is a gift and a responsibility! Leading a church is NOT the same as leading a company. Adopting such language for the church is a big turn off for me, and I expect it is for a lot of people we are and might be ministering to.
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 LaughingGina Stevenson, Gene Tatsch - "thanks" for this post
Well, I regularly attend our district Pastor's meetings and am routinely the youngest one there (I turned 30 in December). There are occasionally some youth pastors who show up who are a few years younger than I am.
I wonder if the age discrepancies are more an issue of how much more we require for ordination. For those pastors retiring now, it was entirely possible to be ordained in the Church of the Nazarene as a teenager - thus giving some pastors a decade of ordained ministry by 27 or 28 years of age. Shoot we have a GS elected who was 28 before the age restrictions went into effect.
Now, it's rare for anyone to get a district license, even, before they're 18 years old. Most likely you'll be 23-25 before you're ordained, even on the fastest schedule.
No pastor with that level of maturity and education is going to be called to an even moderately large congregation (200+) before they're 30.
To really find a pastor like that, you'll likely have to look for a church plant in the midwest somewhere that grew really fast.
...just my $.02.
I have a theory that the most attractive career track (for pastors with upwardly mobile ambitions) is to pastor a large church, by having grown it from zero or from sub-100. There is something to be said for pastoring a church where nobody can compare you to your predecessor.
This is in contrast to the career strategy where one etablishes a track record of improving a church and then moving on to the next project; progressively taking on larger assignments.
It seems to me that a young pastor of a large church will probably have led the church to that size since an existing large church wouldn't hire a young pastor.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingRyan Scott - "thanks" for this post
Something else to consider is that it isn't necessarily that all large churches wouldn't hire a young pastor, but more of the matter that DS's just don't/won't bring a young pastor's name before a large church because they want them to "prove themselves" first. If someone is called to pastor and has the widsom/maturity, then the age shouldn't matter, but it does. (this is not a knock against DS's, just a note of how things tend to be)
I had my first local license when I was 17, had my district license at 22, and was ordained when I was 28. I'd say that is closer to the norm these days.
Among our district advisory council (12 or so people) I am the only one under the age of 50 (am currently 29), and can only think of 2 or 3 pastors serving on district boards and committees that are under 50 as well.
Steven Furtick (at age 26) started Elevation Church in Feb. of 2006 with 121 people at their launch service. Today, their services in 6 different locations see around 10,000 in attendance. Thousands more view Elevation services online each week.
Could a denominational church see this happen?
If this question needs to be cut into another thread, please do so.
I know of a church that was running less than 30 on sunday morning and they had a larger membership than that but the member had stop coming. The church call a 21 year old kid to be there pastor and his wife was 19. He was a fire ball and a good preacher within year or two the church was running over 100 ever sunday. He left that church and took a church on another district running over 200 he was there for couple of year and decide to go into the evangrelist field drop out that and went back into pastoring but not a nazarene church. It a pentecostal church that runningover 300 he has been there for awhile and I feeling he will stay. So some young guy have the abilty to pastor large church. but not many.
Honestly, I am of the opinion that it takes more ability to pastor a small church (30-100) than a church that is larger than 100. In such a church the pastor has to be able to do everything because volunteers are not always readily available. Yes, large churches have their own issues, but from my experiences growing up the larger churches usually had a much more specific pastoral role.
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 LaughingCraig Laughlin, John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post
Yea, the yard work is the one thing I kind of wish we didn't hire out here, cause I really enjoy mowing the grass. But growing up, my dad/family did the mowing, cleaning, maintenance, snow removal, etc. There are definitely plenty of other tasks that are more important for the pastor to be doing (like interacting with the congregation).
I agree a pastor of a small church end up doing everything i remember being call to a small church that was runnning 45 the only question before they acepted us if i wore cowboy boots and if my wife play the piano. I guess they were looking for a piano player and did care what the pastor did. I remember one small we pastor where we need a sunday school teacher for certain age I went and borrow a teacher from another church she was with us for six month before she went to her home church.Some time pastor has to do things that large church doesn't have to do.
Agreed, but in the sense that it takes far more skill to pilot a single engine plane at an altitude of 50 feet at low speed without running into anything, least of which the ground.
I think there is a time and a place where a small church is best suited to uniquely serve the community. In other times and places it is simply a monthly exercise in dodging insolvency in a crowded religious landscape.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingRich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post
I used to be on the advisory board. Not anymore. I was elected 3 years ago when I was 34, served my two-year term, and then wasn't nominated again. I've served on our Ministerial Studies Board for years.
BTW, for those who didn't see it in the other thread, earlier today we elected a 42-year-old pastor to be our new DS.
We have several young pastors on our district. The DS got a few of them who started around the same time into a mentoring group with a more experienced pastor. Another handful of us who pastor church plants / restarts meet monthly, and our average age is probably in the 30's. The ones in their 20's, though, are pastoring brand new works in impoverished areas, so they're not what Dan's looking for.
BTW, since it came up earlier, I'm not sure when I got my first local license, but it was probably around my freshman year of college, since that's when I was called to pastoral ministry. So I probably got my first district license in 1994 at age 19, and I was ordained in 2002 or 2003 (can't remember just now), when I was 27-28. I could have been ordained earlier, but I went to seminary instead of accepting a call to pastor a tiny little (now closed) church.
Anyway, our church plant was running over 200 people within a few years, before I turned 30. Then it declined pretty rapidly due to my learning some leadership lessons the hard way, and has hovered around 100 ever since. For the past 3-4 years, we've been growing slowly but steadily, thanks be to God. But I'm 37, so I'm outside of Dan's sample group.
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingGina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post
The relatively higher level of education prior entering the work-force is going to push that arbitrary age that I was asking about by 2-6 years. I routinely, though the number is not large, witness teens confirming their call to the ministry at around 15 or 16. Many begin to receive an urging earlier. Those ones who are confirming those calls almost always have an adult nurturing that process. I wonder how, many we lose because they don't have an adult or adult helping them to explore and confirm (or dis-confirm) their call to ministry. I put dis-confirm in parens, but how many times do we automatically assume that a stated call to full-time ministry, really is the leading of the Holy Spirit?
Given what I stated earlier, I think that evidence of a good on-purpose mentoring initiatives should result in at least a few ministers receiving ordination about the time they graduate with their Bachelors in Religion. It has only been relatively recent initiative that districts and our colleges have coordinated so that graduating with a Bachelors in Religion ensures all academic requirements for ordination are fulfulled. This was not always the case even 10 years ago. I sometimes think that ordinatiion or some type of experience should be required before a student is accepted into an advanced program but then dismiss the thought because I know that path is not for everyone. Masters are becoming somewhat of a norm, but I think that to some degree a doctorate implies experience as well as education. Some part of me wishes for that perception to be and remain a reality.
Many times we see our youth (those 40 and below) as our hope for the future. I see them as our hope right now. I value the wisdom of my peers and those who are older, yet I see no reason for us to be dashing our young on the rocks while people my age expect to work in relatively comfortable positions.
This thread has been encouraging for me. I am seeing both evidence of established processes as well as the recognition by others as to its need. The full-time minister is both a profession and a vocation and thus needs a solid renewal process (young replacing old) in the form of good education, mentoring, internships, and apprenticeships. We as a denomination seem to be collectively recognizing that need and are beginning to act on it. That is indeed a good sign.
It would be tricky for someone to meet the experience requirements while also going to school, I would think. To be eligible for ordination, a district licensed minister must have served full-time as an assigned minister for at least 3 consecutive years. If part-time, then longer.
Consecutive is no longer a requirement (if it ever really was). You might be confusing experience with the requirement to hold a district license for 3 consecutive years and to be assigned. I think that might have been a myth perpetuated by a group that wanted to restrict the flow of new ordinands. Consecutive "experience" is not a requirement. Additionally, there is a provision for part-time to count also (4 years as an unwritten rule that was written at one time). Its entirely possible. Even in its most strict interpretation, it should be easy to move a student from licensing to ordination within 4 years. The reason its hard is because we collectively say "May God be with you in your Pursuits" and conveniently forget that we have a duty as God's family to help our family members in their pursuits. You may say "God will make a way", I say, He has. We are the way to ordination in the Church of the Nazarene. We are collectively weak in this area and we can do much better. Those who actually have mentoring and placement programs can do better and those who don't need to get moving.
Here are the manual quotes:
One who is called of God to this ministry who currently holds a district license, and who has at one time held a license for not less than three consecutive years and recommended for renewal of district license by the church board of the local church in which he or she holds membership or by the District Advisory Board...
To be eligible for election, the candidate must have been an assigned minister for not less than three consecutive years, and the candidate must currently be serving in an assigned ministry. In the case of part-time assignment, it should be understood that there should be an extension of the consecutive years of in-service time, depending on their level of involvement in local church ministry, and that their testimony and service demonstrate that their call to ministry is primary to all other pursuits.
You have to have been an assigned minister for three consecutive years at some point, even if they aren't directly previous to the assignment you currently hold.
Some districts interpret it in different ways, though.
It used to be that the three consecutive years had to be the three years immediately prior to ordination; that is no longer the case.
...just my $.02.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingRich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post


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Jan 23 2012 12:47 PM #1161
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
I somewhat agree, but you're taking it to extremes and spazzing out at tad.
I picked up the True Gem of the King under the mountain. BLOCK ME? Seriously? 0_o There are 3 store relics and only 2 are good.
Armour and relics are different animals. You can't craft all the different relics and you aren't hurting the economy.
Personally I'm sure there are many people who wouldn't want to be in a kin with someone like you anyways, so maybe this is a win win situation for everyone. Keep it up! Put your words into action! Create a kin called LOTRO Police so we know who to ignore first!
Thing is, informing them they are hurting "the" game simply means they are hurting your "vision" of the game.
We can agree we need to reign in this store business with our feedback, but attempting to socially pariah people because they wanted to use their TP is idiocy.
Plus, anyone who buys that armour, which is a fair chunk of TP for a set, isn't thinking things through. They'll out level it fairly soon.
Depending on how it looks it may work it's way into wardrobes so in reality its a cosmetic piece in my eyes, but an indication of Turbine testing the waters.
Jan 23 2012 02:14 PM #1162
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
From your FAQ, Mr Turbine: http://www.lotro.com/betasignup/faq.html
Will I still be able to play and enjoy the game without buying items from the LOTRO Store, or is that my only option for gaining weapons, armor, potions, and other goodies such as premium loot?
The purchase of items in the LOTRO Store is entirely optional. While items in the Store are designed to immediately enhance your in-game experience, premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay.
Might want to amend that to "We now offer Store armor, the best one can get up untill level 30! But after that, FOR NOW, there's no additional stuff to buy."Officer of the Iluvatarian Knights: http://iluvatarorder.forumcircle.com/portal.php
--Convience not Advantage--
Jan 23 2012 02:28 PM #1163
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Regardless of how I feel about the armour being in the store, it's still completely optional. Armour is so inconsequential at that level anyway. I've leveled up several characters to 30 before crafting myself any armour. I used nothing but landscape drops and quest armour. The only things I typically buy or craft myself at that level are weapons and sometimes jewelry, if I can find it on the AH cheap enough.
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 23 2012 04:23 PM #1164
Jan 23 2012 04:27 PM #1165
Jan 23 2012 04:37 PM #1166
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Ding ding ding. If it's there, someone is going to buy it.
Because new players don't know that they don't need uber armour to be successful. And many of them have real-world money to buy TPs and thus buy from the store, but don't have the gold to pay some of the ridiculous prices that people place on their crafted goods. I used to stack out my characters from the time they hit the real world at level 7, making sure they always had crit crafter upgrades. Then I realized what a waste of time and money it was because the game has gotten easier and easier to hit level 30 with minimal effort. The Undying title is a bit of a joke now.Ayrolen-Anikosi-Anfribur-Ametrine-Amari-Ayaneth-Asparagus-Anayalos-Alyradal-Aloe-Asiago-Altanoin
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 23 2012 05:29 PM #1167
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
And that's the market, now. Someone new, who will see they can get over-statted gear from level one up to 30, who knows no better, will spend the 450TP for T1, 750TP for T2, and 1100TP for T3. Come new into the game, and bang! spend 2300TP. Even if a new VIP (which I think subscriptions will soon enough be a thing of the past), the 500TP allotment hasn't added up yet, and since lvl 20 can be reached in a very short span (certainly not a month, unless an extremely casual player!), that's 2300TP that's going to be paid for. From the in-game stand-point, it's a completely unnecessary expenditure.
To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.
Jan 23 2012 05:33 PM #1168
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
I agree with all of that. But none of that is a good enough reason for me to harass players by telling them that they're ruining the game for me by buying that stuff, refusing to group with them, kicking them from kins, or putting them on my ignore list. This is LOTRO, not Junior High (despite what the people in GLFF would have most people believe).
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 23 2012 05:53 PM #1169
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Turbine's strategy obviously is to go at new users.
New users doesn't mean a veteran of 80 levels of WoW and having played DoD since the 1970ties. It is a Tolkien game, a Lord of the Rings game. Turbine wants to attract people who come here for the lore.
Many people in that target audience have never, ever played a RPG. They have no idea how to work the skills, what tank/healer/DPS means, what skill rotations are.
For them level 15-30 can be pretty challenging. And since for many of them the lore'n'landscape is the point they don't want to learn how to whack that mob properly either. Many of them will be adults with shortage of time but enough cash. They die one time too often, they would pay for the store armor.
Jan 23 2012 05:59 PM #1170
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.
Jan 23 2012 07:14 PM #1171
Jan 23 2012 08:04 PM #1172
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 23 2012 09:38 PM #1173
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
I can't remember if it's in this thread or one on a completely different site, but someone said that the players who remain in this game are what Turbine needs to fuel their business model, even if they don't spend money on the game. Having a high population is itself a draw for new players. Because of that, this post goes on to say, the players who remain in the game deserve the garbage that Turbine will throw at them.
I beg to differ on that. It goes along with what Ayrolen says about the kind of reputation the community has. In an earlier post, I said this setting for the game was a treasure to find. Others have said it well, too-- a living, breathing Middle Earth. I'm willing to dig through the garbage to find that gem, to keep this game as a name above other MMOs. The company once was proud of their presentation-- they've created a beautiful setting that goes well with the story. I'm hoping and guessing there still is pride in the work; maybe not from the corporate execs-- it's apparent they could care less about the game than as a dollar figure; but I think the designers and developers still take pride in their created world. I'm sure their questions to the devs when new ideas are presented aren't along the lines of how long will it take, but are more directed to how much will it cost, and that can be disheartening. I'm hoping the devs take heart at what they read in here; I guess, too, at the same time I'm hoping they do read this forum. I'd think they do, even if it's at home after work or before they go to bed at night. The treasure of the game is still there, buried in garbage right now, but still there nonetheless.
Turbine has changed their stated corporate stance about selling stat gear in the store. They can change that stance again. If the player community stands strong in its own belief that a wrong step needs to be righted, there's a chance it can be. Folks, dig through the garbage.To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.
Jan 23 2012 09:49 PM #1174
Jan 24 2012 01:42 AM #1175
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Officer of the Iluvatarian Knights: http://iluvatarorder.forumcircle.com/portal.php
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Jan 24 2012 02:30 AM #1176
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
targeting new players who had the misfortune to buy the armour as it seems is counter productive but the point remains. how shall we fight this?
what actions must take in order to make TB sorry for even thinking of it?
I said I won't spend anymore money on their store even if that means I must lose my precious relics I am keeping since the Li's revamp.
What other actions exist?
Jan 24 2012 03:03 AM #1177
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Just wanted to follow-up on what I posted way back at the start of the thread. After what I can only describe as an insane amount of armour crafting (T1/2/3 & Light/Medium/Heavy) over the past week and a half I thought I'd post some eye-opening information (at least it was for me):
What I crafted:
First week - roughly 80 items in each of the following - T1(Light & Medium), T1(Heavy), T2(Light), T2(Medium), T2(Heavy), T3(Heavy), T3(Medium). All of them using optional components and had at least 60 crit in each group (I did not craft any shard/symbol gear at this time). In the end more than 400 critted armour pieces and other non-crit armour. I placed them on Firefoot's AH over the past week across various alts.
How many sold?
By the following Saturday - I had less than 30 crit armour pieces left and had sold more than 400 items on the AH over the course of the week. For the second week I crafted roughly 70-80 crit items in each category T1/2/3 & Light/Medium/Heavy for >550 crit armour pieces. Within the first 24 hours (Monday) sold >130 items, T3 being the strongest tier sold.
What do I take from this? Regardless of whether the armour is needed at that level, whether other armour is available via questing or the skirmish camp, whether players can craft their own items, etc. I am amazed at how well the lower-level armour sells, how strong the demand is, and how many players in that level range are checking the AH for gear. There is a gigantic laundry-list of contributing factors that could fill up the suggestions forum, but at least from what I see there is a substantially higher demand than the long-term supply on our AH. Long-term it is not realistically possible to maintain even a fourth of the crafting I've been doing given the current AH/crafting systems, both in terms of resources (hides/ore/optional) and maintaining a strong variety on the AH. It's been a HUGE pain just crafting/posting the items thus far.
This does not change my opinion that I wish that the statted armour never made an appearance in the Store and I still do believe that there is a strong need for changes both in terms of crafting and the AH, but regardless of whether players need better gear or how easy/hard the content may be players still want to be able to pick up crafted quality items reliably and probably preferably with in-game currency.
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Jan 24 2012 03:12 AM #1178
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Aside from not buying anymore points?
1) Cancel your VIP account, if you have one. If you're a Lifer, this doesn't apply, since why would you do that? In short, if you have a recurring subscription, go Premium instead.
2) Refuse to spend what Turbine Points you currently have on-hand. Yes, you already bought them, but chalk it up as a loss, and ignore the Store from here on out.
3a) Do not log into the game. Ignore its very existence, and play something else, as your very presence in the game make the game look more populated to others, and by proxy helps Turbine.
... or...
3b) Log into the game as much as possible. Use up bandwidth and processing cycles for their equipment, costing Turbine money while not providing any more money yourself to offset those costs. If possible, use this time in solo Skirmishes, so that you aren't appearing in game to others wandering around (thus making the game look less populated, see 3a).
4) Speak up! Comment on this here, as well as on 3rd party websites that are discussing the Store Gear issue. Make your voice heard, so that the whole industry is quite aware of what is going on in LOTRO.
Just a few suggestions, since you asked. Screenshot of comment made, for posterity
Jan 24 2012 06:35 AM #1179
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
You'd think the mods would have turned this into an official thread and put it in the official feedback section... then again, they don't want too many people finding this and making it seem like they've made a mistake. Better for them to just leave it here where very few scroll down to look.
Jan 24 2012 07:06 AM #1180
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
They have done more than just that, the Community support team that has responded in this thread have all turned off there Dev tracking flag when responding. They are in fact intentionally hiding it as best they can. the fact is however it's a moot point, its not just here in this thread it's all over the internet.
OrladenLegion of Honor: Officer
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Jan 24 2012 09:22 AM #1181
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 24 2012 10:13 AM #1182
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
I commend you for your efforts in making all of that gear. I craft for alts and know how much of a pain it can be to make a single set of gear for lower levels.
What this shows to me is that there is a big demand for low level armour and they probably weren't lying when they said that is feedback they've been getting. Could they have put the armour in game somehow instead of putting it in the store? Probably. I have a feeling though that if they reworked the level 10-30 quest rewards or made additional changes to crafting to address this then a lot of the people complaining about the gear in the store would have complained about them focusing on that and not other bugs. i.e. "Why are you worrying about stupid level 20 armour when X, Y and Z are still broken?"
So instead they took the easier path and put it in the store where it would be quicker and easier, they wouldn't have to allocate development time on it, and they would make some money.
Jan 24 2012 11:37 AM #1183
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Great Job!
[somewhat off topic]
I have westfold/guilded crafters of all professions. And in some (Historian) I have 3. While there is a separate crafting forum that languishes from Dev attention, here is my pre-Amour-in-the-Store experience on Nimrodel.
I only craft for levels UNDER level 30. Why? Nothing over level 30 sells as there are better sets of everything in drops and quests.
I crafted light/med/heavy complete top to bottom set(s) on average once a week. So a complete full set of L16 critted armour + shields + weapons hit the AH.
I crafted scrolls/tokens/potions too. Tokens mostly high level ones but potions, loads of them hit the AH.
Food, I crafted critted/1perweek/guild meals too. Also the trail foods. Those hit the AH also.
I crafted sundries like dyes too.
I filled in where other crafters had not made much. So, if someone had 10 helmets(critted) and 5 critted 1h swords, I skipped the helmet worked on the rest of the armour set and made 2hd swords or axes or daggers etc.
I liked crafting and didn't mind gathering materials to do it.
I charged what I thought was a "fair price" for what that level had, especially if they didn't have friends to help them finance their acquisitions. I've been posting on the AH for a long time, there was never a real shortage of anything on Nimrodel.
Turbine does not like crafting and pretty much either nerfed it or competes directly with it in their store. There was some hope with Westfold that crafting had gotten a boost again and I did craft many many Teal/Guild pieces for friends and for sale. I also sold extra Sigils and those that got them from me, got them for less than the AH prices at the time.
Yes, there is a demand for low level armour. There is a demand by crafters to "help us make good stuff". Largely the latter is ignored by Turbine, why should they? They can sell the potions, dyes, and "fluff" and make REAL DOLLARS not fake in-game gold like the crafters. They can sell the recipes too and crafting bundles that make everything BOA. You cannot sell the output to anyone, it's strictly craft for yourself with those. If you use the bundles then you cannot compete against the Store. Turbine wins both ways.
The one-shot critted recipes forgotten on completion are expressly geared to craft for yourself. I skipped those and crafted the normal recipes or guild ones until I got crits. Again, anything to prevent the crafter from competing against Turbine.
Now, some of the above has been in the game since day one. However, instead of changing it to improve the situation, Turbine puts in restrictions and hindrances to enhance their own revenue.
It's not a coincidence, it's by design. It's not new, it's contrived. It's WAI (working as intended) by Turbine. After all, Turbine created it, they designed it, they wrote it, they deployed the code and they control the process.
YMMVLast edited by SabrielofLorien; Jan 24 2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: too many typos
I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
<Your winnings, sir.>
[sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
Jan 24 2012 11:47 AM #1184
Jan 24 2012 11:49 AM #1185
Jan 24 2012 11:57 AM #1186
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Only one, that I can find, which was merely a "stop the bickering and insults and stay on topic" response from Celestrata. That doesn't really warrant a spot in the Dev Tracker. There's only so much that she and Sapience can say at this point without getting the ok from Marketing and other higher-ups. She and Sapience aren't running the show, they're moderating the community.
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 24 2012 12:01 PM #1187
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
I do not like this option. I think it potentially ruins the player economy and the integrity of the game. Why craft? Why spend time leveling up or searching for better armor? Just spend money, buy the best stuff and get it over with. P2W is not a game I want to play.
Jan 24 2012 12:20 PM #1188
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
At the end of the day the only thing that will make any difference is if people cancel their subs, stop spending in the store, and even stop logging in all together.
I'm guessing that as well monitoring this thread, they will also be monitoring the sale of these new items, as well as sales from the store in general along with subscription levels. If they see a big enough drop in subs, plus people spending a lot less on the store since the introduction of these items then that would send the signal.
Turbine obviously don't seem to care anymore about the integrity of the game or their own reputation imho otherwise they would not had taken the step down this road that they have, it is only cold hard money they will be interested in and the only people who can do anything about it are the players. It worked in Eve when they introduced £80 monocles and walking in station. The players were concerned about the direction this would lead to i.e. pay to win, enough players rioted ingame and cancelled subs that CCP had to take notice, reverse course and refocus game development back into the core of the game.
So as much as we can complain on forums, it does no good if people don't back it up with action, I know I will not log back into the game unless things change and we get a clear communication that the game is not going pay to win, I'm afraid 'not at this time' when it comes to higher end gear and items just doesn't cut it, i'll invest my time and money with another company if this is the route Turbine want to take.
So, either enough of us care and actually do something concrete about it, or we are the small minority and probably not wanted as customers by turbine anyway I guess time will tell on this one.
Jan 24 2012 02:21 PM #1189
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Jan 24 2012 03:38 PM #1190
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Putting someone on ignore is not abusive. In fact it's the preferred way to politely handle a situation with a player that you never want to communicate with again.
Maybe you'd rather make them a full set of crafted gear for free since that would be a nicer way to help them not contribute to the way the store continues to intrude on gameplay. However, the last time I crafted a set of crit gear for a random newbie they sent me a tell a few hours later asking for another set because they deleted their toon and re-rolled because they didn't like their hair.
Bottom line, people need to know about the issues with the store. Only a small fraction of the people read the forums and have read this thread. The key to players pushing back against the store is to make the gear less appealing in-game either through peer pressure or crafting assistance.
Everyone in my kin or on my friends list already knows that they can come to me for any crafting requests. We've complained about the store armor thoroughly in vent and I can't imagine any of them buying the store armor for an alt. If enough people handle the situation the same way then the armor sales should fail which is the only message the execs will understand."For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
Jan 24 2012 03:50 PM #1191
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
You seem to have conveniently forgotten everything else you said in addition to putting players on ignore. Here, let me quote you to refresh your memory:
"The ONLY way for players to draw the line is to spread the word and use peer pressure in-game. Tell people that you see running around in store armor that you think they are harming the game. And yes, put them on ignore, kick them from your kin, don't join fellowships with them, send a message to people who buy 'advantage' items."
Sending people tells to inform them that they are "harming the game", kicking them from kinships, etc, IS not only abusive, it's incredibly petty. Like I said, this isn't Junior High. This is a game that I play for entertainment. I will not resort to "peer pressure" to get Turbine to do what I want. I expect Turbine to do the right thing on their own.Ayrolen-Anikosi-Anfribur-Ametrine-Amari-Ayaneth-Asparagus-Anayalos-Alyradal-Aloe-Asiago-Altanoin
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 24 2012 04:02 PM #1192
Jan 24 2012 04:08 PM #1193
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
Elendilmir Arda Shrugged -Crickhollow The Colonists
Jan 24 2012 04:46 PM #1194
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
You don't go off at other players. And when store armour is the only armour available, and with the continued crafting nerfs that is how it will shake out, how will you feel? Here is how to use peer pressure: stop paying and stop playing. If you quit paying, but still play, you are helping Turbine attract more customers. People like full servers.
If you stop playing, and explain to all your friends/kin who play why you've stopped - that might do something. Insulting people who don't know the game of old is just being cruel.
Jan 24 2012 05:11 PM #1195
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Great. Got logged out in the middle of typing a much more "nice" post and lost it so here's the short version:
- I feel like what could happen is -- we have three semi-equiv lvl 75 raid sets currently, all requiring grind -- i could see an offering of a "well if you don't want to grind here's a convenient store-bought alternative set"
- That feels a lot like a "scam" -- make everything more and more of a grind, frustrate people, offer store-bought relief from frustration
I can only hope this is not the direction we're looking at. =(
I read in one location that the thought behind this armor was "people are complaining that they can't get at good low level armor" -- ignoring the "why don't they just craft or buy from AH or ask people to buy"? -- it seems like a better solution than store bought might be to address why they're having such troubles finding it. Perhaps even implement a way to allow people to post crafting -requests- in-game. In other words "Hi there, I need a lvl 20 armor set, am willing to pay 500s" and someone could claim it and create it for them. Sort of a "contract". =) Or maybe the low level quests aren't giving enough armor options and they should be adjusted to do so.
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Jan 24 2012 05:36 PM #1196
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
Part of the reason that it's harder for new players to craft their own stuff is that many of the Expert NPC vendors had their tier 4-6 recipes removed. The official line is that this is a "bug", but it is not yet listed in the known issues, nor has it had any sort of fix.
Right now, the only people who can craft decent non-guild gear are those who had already purchased the recipes before the "bug". For new players, the only option for self-crafting in these professions is to go with guild items, which means paying TP for each tier of guild access, or buy shards to craft one-shots.
At this rate, I half expect the rest of the recipes to be removed as well. Why should Turbine have these low level recipes in the game to complete against the store-bought armor? They've already removed the competition for the next tiers of armor, so it's only the next logical step.
Jan 24 2012 05:37 PM #1197
Jan 24 2012 06:01 PM #1198
Re: What is new in the store, armors?????
We'd like to address some of the concerns expressed about the new amror. Because we want to insure that this message isn't swallowed up in the twists and turns of the ongoing discussion, we're closing this thread and would ask that you direct your attention to this thread instead.
Rick Heaton, Community Manager, The Lord of the Rings Online.
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Love-Itis – All The Rare & Unissued 45s From The Vaults Of Magic Touch 1967 to 1977
CD (Item 485223) Magic Touch/Funky Delicacies, Late 60s/1970s — Condition: New Copy
A beautifully done look at the music of Harvey Scales – a damn funky cat from the Milwaukee scene, finally getting his due! The package is overflowing with groovers – hard funky 45 cuts that Scales recorded for the Magic Touch label – mostly in the late 60s and start of the 70s – wrapped up here in a lavish booklet that's filled with well-researched notes, and vintage photos – a set that really sets a whole new standard for the Tuff City label! Scales' groove is one that we've always loved on 45 – a dancefloor-directed version of soul that falls somewhere in a space between Archie Bell & The Drells and Dyke & The Blazers – but with a heavier sound overall. Yet having all these cuts together in one place seems to give them even more intensity than before – a powerhouse package of 20 rare tracks that run the gamut from upbeat soul to heavy funk to a few early disco numbers as well. Titles include "Love-It is", "Broadway Freeze", "Get Down", "The Yolk", "The Funky Yolk", "Get Down 1970", "Funky Football", "Trying To Survive", "Bump Your Thang", "Groove On Sexy Lady", "Rock The World", "Welcome Home", "The Sound Of Soul", "Too Good To Be True", and "Love Is A Gas". Beautifully done package – with an almost Numero-like feel inside the booklet! © 1996-2013, Dusty Groove, Inc. |
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The Undershirt Dilemma
Generally, when it comes to undershirts, we say go with a simple v-neck. Crew necks that show under an unbuttoned dress shirt match well only with shaggy hair, chinos, and a white backwards hat. Maybe some Doc Martens too. And while upper-body-commando sometimes works well, you'd hate to be caught unprepared on a hot, muggy, pit-stain inducing day.
But unfortunately, it's not always that simple. For example, v-necks often don't go well with white dress shirts if you are buttoning them all the way up. They show through, and then you're left with the shadow of a "V" framing the knot of your tie. Here are a few common scenarios that should keep you covered (or not):
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- Dress shirt with top button open - this is what the v-neck is best used for. Get the benefits of a bottom layer without the unseemly sight lines of a crew neck. (Polo Ralph Lauren, $23 for two).
- Dress shirt with more than one button open – Sometimes one button undone just isn't enough. If this leaves some of your v-neck exposed, you'll need something deeper. Try the American Apparel ($51 for 3) version, unfortunately without the stretch but still a slim fit. And if you're wearing something light and summery, of course you should just drop the undershirt altogether.
If you wish to discuss this topic more… take it up with this guy: http://www.undershirtguy.com/.


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A group of Boston and surrounding area Wheaten Terrier owners. So that wheaties outside this website can always find us our default meeting is: The second Sunday of each month at 10 AM in the summer, 1PM the remainder of the year At the off leash recreational area at Thorndike Park, Arlington MA We'd love to meetup at a beach or a park sometime too. Please click here to share any ideas for additional meetups with the group!
Meetup details are available only to members.
Hi Little Yorkie Lovers! Our Meetup is designed for tiny Yorkies (4lbs. and under) to have fun playing with other Yorkies their own diminutive size. The Boston Little Yorkies meetups are also a perfect environment for little ones who are shy or nervous. They can romp, share sniffs and have a great time without fear of being trampled. Our meetups are held indoors and outside in enclosed, safe environments. Join our friendly, supportive group for afternoons of fun, and sharing tips with other Yor …
This is a group for dog owners who like to walk their dog at Great Brook Farm in Carlisle. I enjoy taking my Boston terrier for walks there and thought it would be fun to form a pack walk. My dog isn't ready for off leash walks yet by herself but has done well off leash in a pack. I'd like to walk on Saturday or Sunday mornings. Let's socialize the dogs and socialize ourselves while we enjoy the outdoors and get some exercise! We aren't discriminating here, let's bring dogs of all sizes! ;) I'm …
There are no upcoming Meetups.
Meet with other local JRT Dogs owners. Have fun meeting other JRTs and talking about this incredible breed.
There are no upcoming Meetups.
We wanted to start a group in order to socialize with other small dog owners in the local area for socializing walks and companionship and sharing of dog caring resources. We also share neighborhood celebrations and and charitable activities. Anyone who has a small doggie and a good heart with a good sense of humor should join us!
There are no upcoming Meetups.
Calling all West Highland Terrier owners living West of Boston, MA!! I'd love for my Westie Henri to meet other Westies. We'll meet once a month at different places around Metrowest and let our dogs play. The purpose of this group is gathering Westie owners to socialize and have play dates, share advice and friendship, and create a resource for each other.
Get an alert email when new Meetup Groups like this start near you.
You'll get advice, help finding members, and tools to make running a Meetup Group easier.


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I slept here 2 nights with my girlfriend. The room was poor but comfortable. A small cupboard at the entrance, a desk, one chair a big window. In the centre of the room, the bed with a nice neon panel which creates a nice atmosphere in the room when you play with the pink and blue colors. The window, fortunally,... More
- Also Known As:
- Lambermont Hotel Brussels, Belgium
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- TripAdvisor is proud to partner with Booking.com, Expedia, Hotels.com, Venere, Orbitz, HostelWorld, Agoda and Tingo so you can book your Lambermont Hotel reservations with confidence. We help millions of travelers each month to find the perfect hotel for both vacation and business trips, always with the best discounts and special offers.


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Gregarious Grell
Binds when picked up
Use: Teaches you how to summon this companion.
Does flips when idle.
Pit-pattering footsteps; vocalizations (on-click)
Loot code required.
This pet is redeemed through the common 'Viscous Grell' loot card from the World of Warcraft Crown of the Heavens TCG expansion. The card may be scratched to reveal a code allowing access to this pet. The code may be redeemed at Blizzard's promotion retrieval page. The pet may be obtained in-game from Landro Longshot in Booty Bay.
I love this little guy! He's the only pet I've stuck with the whole way through leveling. He rarely dies with his heal and does a fair amount of damage. Love my little Greg! Merry Christmas and a happy new year, everyone :)
this lil guy is awsome and merry christmas everyone :)
Merry Christmas, Breanni! Have a wonderful day and thank you for your web site.
Bloodyfields, Thrall US
Merry Christmas Breanni and all you pet lovers throughout Azeroth. See you in the bushes.
IMO, quite the useful battle pet. His spells come in very handy(I was able to take out the little gnome in Hellfire Penn. with just him), and as Attentions mentioned, it seems he can take on a whole team or wild group sometimes, by himself! All in all a VERY nice addition to any battle team, and the nice little bonus for me is I'm yet to see another in Battles thus far :D
I use this pet as my main battlepet. (My epic husband bought him for me as a companion for my warlock. SO MANY IMPS!!!) He can usually solo entire teams of wild pets 3-4 levels higher than himself. His humanoid heals and his cauterize are lovely. :)
If you don't play the WoW TCG, you can get this little guy on eBay for $5-$10. You'll probably spend a lot more than that buying random card packs trying to get loot, so he's totally worth it. (I've lost count of how many packs of WoW TCG cards I've bought, but I've never gotten a single loot card out of any of them!)
You can also cage him to sell or gift to a friend. :)
Defo one of my favorite pets !
Unfortunately I panic a tiny bit every time he makes noise, thinking that a grell is about to leap on me and try to eat my face. I'm sure I'll get used to it in time. Of course, once I'm used to it, a grell will leap on me, I'm sure.
Oh and he has a Mullet!
I don't know about you, but I'd much rather keep company with a Gregarious Grell than an Impetuous Imp or a Disdainful Demon, don't you think?


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Theorie SAGA Touch 1 1/2" Flat Iron
ValentineHairPlatinum BlondeColor Treated HairFine or Thin HairAbsolutely Awesome Flat Iron That Beats My Solia!I've been using a Solia for years and I decided to splurge and upgrade. I cannot say how much I love this. So many things have been said by others that I agree with. If you are used to other irons lower the temp until it does what you need. Gorgeous iron that works so fast. I loved the Solia but this one is so much better. The solia could never get a good bang curl. This does it in a heartbeat. This is the consumer version of the salon version www.absolutheat.com . A great great flat iron.posted Apr 28, 2013Link to this post
Kristie H.AustraliaHairCurly HairColor Treated HairThick or Coarse HairBest Hair Straightner I Have Ever Usedi have honestly tried every hair straightener on market. I have bought a GHD, , the sedu, the one pass by Bio Ionic, The vibe, diva , silverbullet just to name a few. I have spent an absolute FORTUNE on hair straighteners. I just want to point out i never write reviews but i simple had to as this straightener is EXCEPTIONAL!!!!
I have thick, coarse, unruly /curly hair and this hair straightener gets my hair flat, sleek, glossy with one pass of the straighter through my hair..
Honestly if you have hard to manage hair you will love this straighter
posted Apr 23, 2013Link to this post -
Victoria M.San Diego CaliforniaHairDark BrownColor Treated HairThick or Coarse HairBest Thing EverThis iron works like magic. It leaves my hair silky and never gets puffy by the humidity. my hair is slick straight, just how i want it to be.posted Apr 22, 2013Link to this post
Stone P.LAHairMedium BrownThick or Coarse HairIncredible!I'm not one to write a review but this product deserves to be praised! I have had great luck with my GHD and my Salon Tech's, but nothing comes close to the results of this tool. Even better, it looks great too! It's like a Ferrari without all the problems and price. Great work Theorie, I just wish you had a blow dryer, I need one soon!posted Apr 22, 2013Link to this post
Dawn A.WisconsinHairDark BrownNormal HairUnbelievable! A Must Have!This flat iron blows away the competition in so many ways. I have had so many flat irons over the years as a stylist but none have come close. First, the packaging was by far the nicest I have ever seen. Nice touch and didn't expect it. The iron has soft rubber back where your hand grips that really makes it more comfortable to hold while styling for more than 10-20 mins, brilliant! Oh and I absolutely love the cotton cord that protects it! It looks super sexy and keeps my other tools at my station from destroying it since I leave them on all the time. This iron get VERY hot! I used to style all my clients at 450 with my other irons but this one I can use it at 410 and get the same results. I think it's because it maintains the heat better than the rest. Over all this iron is a true performer. I would recommend it to anyone.posted Apr 18, 2013Link to this post
Alicia D.HairDark BrownNormal HairCurly HairColor Treated HairBig Disappointment!I was really disappointed in this flat iron. I am biracial and have naturally very curly hair. The flat iron did straighten my hair really well and left it shiny and smooth, the device itself however did not funtion well. Everytime I would plug the iron in, the display screen would show an "E" for error with a bunch of weird numbers. The only way to fix it was to unplug the iron and plug it back in. Second issue I had was with the touch screen. Although the screen would show that it was locked, I was still able to adjust the temperature accidently while straightening. So while I was using the flat iron, the temperature was going up to 450 degrees and I didnt even know it!
A touch screen flat iron sounds like a great idea, but in reality it's just not practical. I returned the flat iron and bought another BaByliss.posted Apr 8, 2013Link to this post -
TrinaMichiganHairMedium BrownCurly HairThick or Coarse HairFantastic Results!This flat iron is simply amazing! I have been using a cheapie Conair for quite some time. I have naturally curly, course hair. I had to use a serum in my hair to tame down the frizz and help with the straightening process. I would have to pass over the same area 6,7 or more times to get it straight with the Conair. I got this baby in the mail today and was blown away! I thought I would see how good it really was without using the serum. Wow! My hair straightened so nice! No frizzies! My hair glided through the iron soft and smooth. I only needed to go once, sometimes twice through my hair. It cut my styling time in half and I don't need to use the products any longer! The iron is very easy to use and gets really hot! The case it comes in is very nice for travel. I can't believe I waited so long to get a high quality iron. It makes all the difference in the world! The lifetime warranty is an extra bonus!posted Mar 23, 2013Link to this post
Shelly G.New York, NYHairDark BrownThick or Coarse HairMy Hair Is Beautiful, And So Is This Iron! With Money To Spare.Thank you Folica for such a great price on this tool. My salon sells it for $225.00 which is just too much for my budget. I am so happy I saw it on Folica.com and was able to get this Theorie iron for a price I could afford. Wow, what a difference it makes on my hair! I knew I would love it, my stylist uses both the 1 inch and the 1.5 inch when styling my hair. I only needed t 1.5 inch but he uses the 1 inch for curls.
Thank you Folica, I always get the best deals with your site. I will be back shopping soon!
posted Mar 22, 2013Link to this post -
Kim C.Royal City, WashingtonHairLight BrownCurly HairThick or Coarse HairGreat Flat Iron!I had another top brand flat iron with 2 year warranty and it works great - I thought. I read the reveiws on the Theorie, saw the lifetime warranty and decided to purchase it. . I love it! It takes half the time, I uses 360 degrees, and it is so much quicker than my T3 1 inch and the Theorie cost 10 dollars less and a lifetime warranty!posted Mar 18, 2013Link to this post
Gary K.Miami Beach, FloridaHairMedium BrownNormal HairPerfect, A++ Performance! Now, A Little Tip!Not only does this iron work great, it looks great too! I have been a huge fan of my Theorie iron since I received it 4 months ago. I'd never use another brand as far as I am concerned, especially since this one has a lifetime warranty and plan to keep it forever! I noticed from some previous comments that Theorie had very few negative reviews posted but the ones that were negative were in response to "Fly Aways" and the "plates not sliding as nicely through the hair". Well, I think I can help! As a professional stylist for over 16 years I can explain as to why you or someone else may have had this problem. It's very simple and It's all about the heat! Too much of it! The way a flat iron works is the heat it creates breaks the Hydrogen Bond in the hair, thus removing some water/moisture every time you pass over your hair. The more moisture/water that is removed, the more static and dry your hair will be. With this being said, I tested the heat of this iron compared to a few irons (we won't mention names here) that you're probably familiar with and found the Theorie much hotter, faster at heating up, and stayed much more consistent as I pull it through hair. The other irons, even though they say 450 on the display screen really only go to 420-425. Most irons never actually go to 450, although they say so on the display and on the packing. More importantly, most irons drop the heat very quickly as it passes through the hair so even if it did go to 450 degrees, by the second pass you are down to 390 degrees! This is Typical, but not for the Theorie I have. An iron at 450 is unnecessary for 99% of the population. Users think they need this due to their previous or current irons not actually reaching this Temperature. If you have never tested your iron with a proper temp gauge, you may never actually know. Bottom line, I suggest using this tool at 420 degrees or less if you think you are used to 450 degrees with your current/past model. This is a powerful tool, not like any I have used in the past. Too much heat will damage your hair, but at least Theorie is giving us what we are paying for, not being bogus like the rest. 450 degrees is usually only necessary for Keratin Treatments, not for at home daily or bi daily users. I hope this review was helpful.posted Mar 16, 2013Link to this post
Write Your Own Review
Have you tried this product? Help out by sharing what worked (or didn't)!
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Men's Nike Detroit Lions Local T-Shirt
Item no: 13370262 Price: $27.99
AVAILABILITY: Leaves warehouse in 7 - 10 full bus. days. - (Details)
Product Information
Give a cool shout out to your hometown (or adopted) football team every time you wear this Nike® men's Local short-sleeve t-shirt! A fan slogan supporting the NFL® squad is screenprinted on the front of the cotton top that's sure to become a favorite from the moment you slip it on.
Product Features
Features- 100% cotton
- Short-sleeve t-shirt
- NFL® team graphic and fan slogan screenprinted on front
- Swoosh® logo screenprinted on left sleeve
- Ribbed crew neckline with interior taping
- Officially licensed
- Made in Honduras


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Origin -- Atlanta, GA -- July 15th, 2011
So this was supposed to be on the Heaven stage at the Masquerade, the upstairs room with a 1000 person capacity. I hate Heaven. Fortunately, The Glitch Mob got moved from another venue to the Masquerade for some reason, and obviously they can sell many more tickets than Origin, so Origin moved down to Hell The Masquerade doesn't have the best acoustics or whatever, as it used to be an old cotton mill, and Hell is no different than Heaven in that aspect, but it's a much smaller room and stage and it feels so much more intimate.
The Masquerade put 3 local bands on top of the 3 touring bands, so this show happened to run pretty late. My brother and I got there in time for the last local, Legion X, to play. It was their CD release show so they played like 35-40 minutes. God they sucked. Next was Absymal Dawn. When MetalSucks streamed their album Leveling the Plane of Existence earlier this year, I listened to a couple of songs but I wasn't a fan. Way too modern-sounding and clean for my tastes. Well, they were okay live. They were pretty much tech-death, but they had some cool riffs. They even had an Immolation meets Strapping Young Lad vibe. Programmed to Consume My Own Savior Rapture Renowned Perpetual Dormancy Leveling the Plane of Existence In Service of Time might not be the right order ^ Then it was time for Vital Remains. When I saw them on Summer Slaughter they were okay. Their sound was awful though. This time they were even worse. Their sound was so freakin bad. It had me thinking that Origin was gonna be the same way. Icons of Evil (with intro) Savior to None...Failure for All Hammer Down The Nails Dechristanize (with intro) Fortunately I was wrong. Origin took a long time to set up, and they got on a little after 12. I had mentioned earlier that my mom wanted me to be home by 12:30, so I should have been leaving then. But for some reason I was feeling really defiant that night. I'm 19 years old, for chrissake, about to go off to college, and she wants me home by 12:30? Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this, as most bands end before midnight, but the fuckin' Masquerade screwed up by putting too many locals on so as I said, Origin didn't even start till' midnight. The previous summer my mom had made me come home at 12:30 from a Vektor show, and I only caught one song of theirs. I had never really forgiven my parents for that. I was determined to not let it happen again. I WAS DETERMINED TO SEE ORIGIN. So I stayed. My younger brother kept tapping me on the shoulder during the performance (I was on the rail) but I either ignored him or just turned and shook my head at him. Anyways, enough about me and onto the performance. THEY WERE FUCKING AMAZING. Probably the best live metal band I've ever seen. They still sounded great, despite the fact it was at the Masquerade, I was on the rail (it doesn't sound as good there), and I had earplugs in. Jason was a crazy vocalist. He stood on the rail most of the time and screamed into the crowd. I screamed into his face a lot of the time, but I didn't know any of the words so I was just screaming nothing He didn't pull anyone on stage, but he kept telling people to stagedive, so I pulled myself on top of the short stage and jumped for the first time. There weren't that many rows of people so it was kinda stupid, I just put one foot on the speaker and one foot on the rail and sorta fell into a couple peoples' hands. I'd like to try it again at a show with more people. Anyways, like I said, they were flawless, and so fun. If I'm grounded, I don't give a shit. THAT WAS SO WORTH IT. I guess I hadn't listened to enough of Origin, as I didn't hear them play Saliga or Antithesis, but I'm sure they did play those two songs. They may have played Portal too. Anyways I can give you a partial setlist but that's all. Explosion of Fury Purgatory Staring from the Abyss Vomit You Out The Descent Wrath of Vishnu The Aftermath
Last.fm/user/loganarchy Last edited by larvtard; 07-16-2011 at 10:11 AM. |
Yeah, I guarantee they played Saligia and Antithesis. Those are my 2 favorite songs by them, too! Listen to them MORE!
And YAY, Ben popped his stagediving cherry! It gets easier every time you do it. I almost hurt myself really bad the first time I did it for Magrudergrind since I took someone out and almost landed on my head. After watching Terror live, where there were people stagediving every other second in a crowd that was only 2 rows deep, there's a very specific technique in order to land on your feet. Watch videos of hardcore bands live; you'll catch on. That's actually why I enjoyed Dillinger Escape Plan so goddamn much: There were a TON of people packing the Bottom Lounge, and although me and everyone else were stagediving every other second, there was a large sea of people to land on and surf on. So you could do crazier stuff and not worry about landing on your head- frontflips, jumping off high objects, running out into the crowd... it was insane. |
i have the entire VR and abysmal dawn setlists posted on setlist.fm
5/25-5/26 MDF 6/11 Cannibal Corpse 6/29 Holy Grail 7/24 Halestorm 7/27 SFU 7/30 Mayhem Fest |
Last.fm/user/loganarchy |
Sounds like you had a great time. I'm jealous i recently got into origin and would really like to see them. Also i lol at people that have parents that want them home at certain times. My parents only rule was call me when you get there and let me know when you get home. They also usually asked about what time I would be home I usually told them 1. There was a few times where I satayed and met bands but I would call and tell them what I was doing and everything was cool. I love my parents lol. Luckily at 24 I don't have to do that, oo wait I'm married I have to do that again : |
Couldn't make it to this show due to my brother being a dick. Oh well, my date didn't get Hate Eternal and I caught Origin and Vital Remains at Summer Slaughter 2009 and 2010 respectively. This show did sound like a lot of fun though.
I was talking to Natrlhi at the Cleveland date, and apparently Origin is a completely different beast with Jason Keyser now singing. He makes the live show twice as crazy as it used to be.
Sucks man
Last.fm/user/loganarchy |
My mom still doesn't let me go to shows if she knows I'm going by myself. She thinks I'm gonna get mugged or something...I understand her concern (and it does have some merit) but for fuck sakes I'm 20, and I think she forgets that sometimes. Oh well, I've gotten good at telling her that I'm going to do something else while actually going to a show if I have nobody to go with
So yeah, I kinda feel your pain |
Tags |
abysmal dawn, origin, vital remains |
Thread Tools | |


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Gentle Giant Imported Friesian Gelding
"Macho" was one of the great show horses chosen for the show/exhibition," Black Pearls of Rhythms"!! Macho (registered as Minne van 't Speyksbosch) is a REALLY nice, well trained, 7 yr old STER gelding. He was in Leeuwarden at the stallion keur ... more
For Sale: $26,900
Ad Updated 6/17/2013 3:42:07 PM
INCREDIBLE Mover! IMPORTED Show Stopper!!!!!
Ferrari, $26,900, Gelding, Black, Age: 12, 16.3H, 1200 lbs, Foaled: 2000, Anton 343 x Tjitte 333, 2nd Premie Friesian Gelding: Ferrari is a very sweet and smart gelding going on 12 years old. He has been competing in horse shows since he was 3 ... more
Ad Updated 6/17/2013 3:42:03 PM
Christos is an absolutely stunning, flashy, friesian stallion. He is by the well-known FPS stallion Sibald 380, who is well known for stunning driving exhibitions at friesian events! His dam is a wonderful ster mare, Idske Mijltje by Frans 289, known ... more
For Sale: $11,900
Ad Updated 6/17/2013 3:41:46 PM
Athena was bred to be a STER, as she is out of a STER mare, with unbroken STER predicates in her motherline. We hand picked this outstanding young filly with a LOW 1.95% in breeding co-efficient, and we are excited to offer such a high class gal! ... more
Ad Updated 6/17/2013 3:41:44 PM
Amazing Full Pedigree 4 Yr Old FRIESIAN Stallion
1/2 Brother to our stallion, Rembrandt, previously sold---that we LOVED!!!! This is an amazing stallion that WILL NOT LAST.... as you may know, i f you watch the website...when we get gorgeous friesian stallions in, that are already going well un ... more
For Sale: $18,900
Ad Updated 6/17/2013 3:41:49 PM
2nd Level Dressage 7 yr old STER Gelding
See www.BlackSterlingFriesians.com for a CURRENT List of our sale horses!!! Jet Black and Handsome, he is an extraordinary Friesian--and he KNOWS it! A well trained and easy going 7 yr old gelding, he is a cross between a baroque and sporthorse bu ... more
Sold/Listed at: $19,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:24:50 PM
Wonderful 2 for 1 Value On Pregnant Friesian Mare
See www.BlackSterlingFriesians.com for a CURRENT List of our sale horses!!! BSF is very proud to present an incredible MARE that is not only a GREAT family/pleasure/trail horse, but will also give you a foal worth more than half her purchase pri ... more
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:24:32 PM
STUNNING FRIESIAN STALLION-Showing 1st Level
See www.blacksterlingfriesians.com for a CURRENT list of our sale horses!!!! Here is an outstanding and flashy Friesian stallion with points in L2 Dressage. His floating gaits make him a pleasure to ride and an elegant FEI prospect. He is a perfec ... more
Sold/Listed at: $27,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:24:17 PM
GORGEOUS Registered Friesian Stallion!
See www.blacksterlingfriesians.com for a CURRENT list of our sale horses!!!! He is an incredible, tall, leggy, elegant son of the Approved stallion, Maiko. Maiko is an excellent Friesian Stallion, approved on offspring. His offspring have very goo ... more
Sold/Listed at: $9,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:24:01 PM
Fairytale 3rd level Dressage Schoolmaster!!!
See www.blacksterlingfriesians.com for a CURRENT list of our sale horses!!!! This boy has truly been loved and cherished his whole life. His mother died when he was born so he was raised by hand by the same family that owned him his whole life. Ch ... more
Sold/Listed at: $24,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:23:44 PM
4th Level Dresage National Champion Friesian !!!
See www.blacksterlingfriesians.com for a CURRENT list of our sale horses!!!! He is the HIGHEST Level dressage Friesian we have ever offered, and he was the 2006 ZZ Light Champion of all Friesians in Europe:) And the Reserve 2006 3rd Level Dressag ... more
Sold/Listed at: $34,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:23:27 PM
Imported STER STALLION-Points in L level Dressage
See www.blacksterlingfriesians.com for a CURRENT list of our sale horses!!!! This is one of our TOP TOP dressage horses that is currently competing, and winning, in L Level dressage [First Level]!!!! He is a beautiful and TALL STER stallion with a ... more
Sold/Listed at: $25,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:23:06 PM
Easy and Reliable Imported Friesian Gelding
See www.blacksterlingfriesians.com for a CURRENT list of our sale horses!!!! 6 year old, very reliable and easy to ride, STER gelding. Very good looking, good movements with a friendly, gentle character. He is easy to ride, previously shown 2nd ... more
Sold/Listed at: $23,900
Ad Updated 4/27/2009 8:33:22 PM
Fairytale Dressage Friesians
Appointments are necessary for access to our stable and horses ... more
Sold/Listed at: $29,900
Ad Updated 5/9/2010 4:22:51 PM
Solid 2nd Level Friesian Gelding--- EASY TO SIT!
This gelding has been sold, See blacksterlingfriesians.com for other friesians for sale or call 415-272-2112 ... more
Ad Updated 3/13/2012 10:55:32 AM
3rd level (z Level) Recently Imported Gelding
iSADORO HAS BEEN SOLD, see blacksterlingfriesians.com for pictures and videos of other friesian sale horses , or call 415-272-2112 ... more
Ad Updated 3/13/2012 10:58:10 AM
FAIRYTALE LOOKING FRIESIAN GELDING- Just Arrived
Just in Time has been sold, Please see videoclips at blacksterlingfriesians.com or call 415-272-2112 ... more
Sold/Listed at: $28,900
Ad Updated 3/13/2012 10:56:13 AM
VERY Special and Reasonably Priced Friesian!
Sold/Listed at: $26,900
Ad Updated 3/13/2012 10:53:48 AM
Nobby has been sold, ... more
Ad Updated 3/13/2012 10:54:48 AM
VERY Special and Reasonably Priced Friesian Mare!
Hiltsje has been sold See Blacksterlingfriesians.com for more pictures and videoclips or call 415-272-2112. ... more
Sold/Listed at: $11,900
Ad Updated 3/13/2012 10:56:53 AM
We arrange transportation from our barn to yours!
All Horses are Vet Checked and Recent Blood Work!
All horses are trained to ride AND drive!
FHANA/FPS Registered FRIESIAN Horses!


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Filed under: THE WEEK/THE WEEKEND | Tags: "Beyond, 2010, 2011, a, Alejandro, ALL'S, and, annual, Argentina, art, art Jeff, artist, arts, as, "doom, BALLAD, band, based, big, bill, bird, blue, blues, book, Boundaries"Scared, Brotzmann, burns, california, Can's, center, Center Joseph, Chaskielberg, Cradleduende, Czukay, DALEY, dance, dancers, dark, dave, Deadlock, delta, dixon, Dustin, earth, ENDS, Ensemble avant-garde, ENSEMBLE UNIVERSITY, Fest, festival, films, folk", Follow, for, forum, Freedman, from, gallery, Go!, Going, GOODBYE, Grey-Blue, gypsy, Hernandez, high, Holger, homeless, i, in, Inc16th, innovative, into, iraq, Irmin, jason, JASPER, JAXON, jazz, joe's, Joel, johnson, Joseph, klezmer/flamenco, lavelle, littlefield, lush, Marine, matt, max, MEASURE, Medieval, megan, Miller, Milo, monday, monk, MOSHE, music, new, now, O'Halloran, O'Haire Bill, of, old, orleans, PAN, park, party, people, peter, photography Paraná, place, poetry, poets, presents, pub, punk, QT:, river, robert, ross, Ruche, Rye:, Schmidt, screen, Screening, SHAKESPEARE, slate, Snyder, sounds, SOUNDTRACKS A, spectacle, streets, style, sweet, swing, that, the, theater, tide, timey, TIN, to, tom, Tones, TONES ENSEMBLE, Tor, two, U.S., UNIT RAS, up, vision, visual, we, Well, will, world, Yochai, Yossi, you, Zlabinger
June 5-11
Arts For Art, Inc. presents the 16th annual Vision Festival, New York City's premier multidisciplinary celebration of innovative jazz music, dance, poetry, and art, held for its third year at the Abrons. Critics have described it as "arguably the most important free-jazz fest in the U.S." (Peter Margasak, Chicago Reader), and stated that "avant-garde jazz culture has no better colloquy in this country than the Vision Festival" (Nate Chinen, The New York Times).
Each year, the Vision Festival honors the achievements of one living artist who has greatly influenced the world around them and paved the way for other innovators to move forward. On Wednesday, June 8, Arts For Art and The Vision Festival will celebrate a Lifetime of Achievement by Peter Brotzmann. This great improviser was one of the first practitioners of the Free Jazz movement in Europe. Brotzmann has programmed his own evening in such a way that it would reflect his ongoing pursuit of musical innovation. This 70-year-old artist is not interested in looking back — only in looking forward and being as creative as possible in the present.
Visit visionfestival.org for more information and listings of Vision Festival events at satellite sites. (SEE FULL SCHEDULE.)


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Fayette County is about to get district voting for all five seats on both the Fayette County Commission and the Fayette County Board of Education.
County Commission Chairman Steve Brown, while expressing his astonishment that the federal judge brushed past a significant legal hurdle to find for the plaintiffs, said Tuesday afternoon that an appeal is not certain. Read More»


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Nothing but Jets
New York Jets news, commentary and insider info from beat writer Kimberley A. Martin.
Jets reportedly interviewing Browns' Davis
The Jets are interviewing Browns linebackers coach Billy Davis today for the same position, according to the New York Post.
Former Jets assistant head coach/linebackers coach Bob Sutton was recently named the Chief's new defensive coordinator.
Davis has spent the past two seasons in Cleveland, but he currently is not listed on the team's web site as a member of the coaching staff. Earlier...