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Thursday, October 10, 2013
What's in a Box?
A few days ago, David Driscoll posted an article on his K&L blog about the problems he runs into with customers who complain not about the whiskey that K&L shipped to them but about the box. I thought it was an amusing post, but apparently, some folks on Twitter and the StraightBourbon forum took offense that Driscoll would treat whiskey boxes so irreverently.
For my part, I don't care about whiskey boxes. I buy whiskey to drink not to display or resell. I do use the boxes for storage (extra storage is always helpful in earthquake country), but once I'm done with a whiskey, the bottle, box and anything else goes straight to the trash. Most of them are just flimsy cardboard or cheap metal tins anyway (that are inevitably dented by me if they aren't already dented when I get them - which they often are).
It actually upsets me when the boxes (and bottles) are too nice. It means that the company spent significant money, money that is passed onto the consumer, on something that's going in my trash bin. A terrible example of this was the Old Rip Van Winkle 23 year old decanter of a few years ago which came in a giant wooden cube. It was a great bourbon, but what a totally useless waste of money and resources (and the thing had a sort of creepy, coffin-like look to it, but maybe that was appropriate for a whiskey from a dead distillery).
Also, to elaborate on something Driscoll said in his StraightBourbon response, when we fetishize packaging, we only add to the industry perception that jacking up prices with fancy boxes and bottles is a good marketing strategy. If you're one of those people who wrote a nasty email to your retailer about how your tin was dented, I don't want to hear you complaining about the next $500 whiskey released in a hand blown bottle nested in a wooden boat.
What do you think? If you are one of those people who finds value in the box? I'd love to know why.
33 comments:
I'm a whiskey drinker, not an investor determined that alcohol is a brilliant retirement plan. I couldn't care less about a box. If the bottle arrives at my house intact, the box has done its job. Cheap cardboard is perfect for my purposes. I have better things to save than marketing materials.
- October 10, 2013 at 8:40 AM
Posted a poll on this issue to our informal whisky club...so far the vote is that packaging is not necessarily relevant. In a lot of cases, what is printed on the box is reprinted on the bottle.
For myself, I keep the boxes only until the bottle is opened, which leads me to ask what I am going to do with the wooden box my HP 25 bottle came in...back in April, my older brother picked up a bottle of HP 25 for me in New Brunswick, since it was $197 there, as opposed to $350 here in Ontario. When he went into the store to make the purchase, they asked him whether he wanted a carboard box or the wooden box. He asked if there was a difference in price. They said no, there was no difference, so he opted for the wooden box...and it looks really pretty, but I have no idea what to do with it... maybe I can use if to hold my dice and rpg figures... - October 10, 2013 at 8:50 AM
- My Annoying Opinions said...
I like attractive packaging (which does not have to be the same as expensive packaging). I have no interest in re-selling any of my whisky but as I have a large collection sitting on my shelves, waiting to be drunk I would prefer to keep closed bottles in tins/boxes--safer from the depredations of my kids and dogs--and not have my shelves look drab or ugly in the process; they're in a room I work in and aesthetics are important to me in general.
But I certainly don't buy whisky on account of its packaging. That said, if I am paying a lot of money for a whisky, and it seems likely that some fraction of that pays for the box then I want the box too. See, for example, the Highland Park 25. - October 10, 2013 at 8:54 AM
- Steffen said...
I have it exactly the same way as you Steve. 99% as we dont have earthquakes. Boxes are good for lightprotection for the few bottles I store outside a cupboard. If the box looks too fancy I dont buy a whisky. I once got a 5 £ discount in Campbeltown when I said I didn't want the box
When the rather simple Cadenhead box is 5 £, imagine what other more fancy boxes cosst consumerd
Steffen - October 10, 2013 at 9:14 AM
Thanks for adding to the discussion SKU. One thing I think we all can agree on is that when we're in a store, looking at the shelf ourselves, and we have the choice between the clean wine label or the one with the tear, we're all going to choose the clean one. To a certain extent, we all as humans have some level of aesthetic pleasure. There's nothing wrong with aesthetics. I am a total sucker for a beautiful label and statistics show that better labels on bottles help them to sell faster. But whisky producers never thought about how these packages or containers were going to be shipped across the country and how their tins would hold up during the process. They were never intended to get packed in styrofoam and arrive blemish free on your doorstep. They were meant to look pretty on a shelf when the customers walked down the aisle, to catch your attention. I can understand why people want the packaging, especially if they're paying for it, but I can't promise it will be blemish free. These are flimsy materials with little tolerance for the elements.
- October 10, 2013 at 9:43 AM
- Unknown said...
I appreciate good design ... the Angel's Envy bottles are the best I've seen in a while. And when the bottle is empty, it gets recycled. Boxes are a waste of resources, I agree. They also get recycled, though my wife did liberate a Booker's box to grow plants on the picnic table. Will that make me buy another bottle? Nope.
- October 10, 2013 at 9:48 AM
Funny you mention the 23 yr Pappy coffin. I had a local store that somehow had one. They had it displayed so you could see it as you walked in. After sitting there for almost a year at $500, they moved it to the back. After a year-and-a-half it finally sold.
Packaging really doesn't matter. I bought two bottles of GTS from this same store and they asked if I wanted the box they came in and I declined. Best thing was I got the GTS at 10% off because they couldn't move it. - October 10, 2013 at 9:49 AM
- sku said...
Since when does Stagg come in a box? Usually I just see it in the tissue paper.
- October 10, 2013 at 9:53 AM
- BMc said...
I keep the ugly boxes. The Old Rip van Winkle 10 year is plug ugly, for instance. I'd love to get my hands on the infamous Butt Ugly Bottle that Elmer T Lee used to come in when it was higher proof.
- October 10, 2013 at 10:21 AM
- BMc said...
whoops, I meant bottle, not box. Who keeps the box?!?! Even the best ones are boring, compared to the bottles inside.
- October 10, 2013 at 10:23 AM
When I bought both bottles of stagg, the manger asked if I wanted the box they came in. It was a a retangular, 3 bottle box. It was cool looking for a carboard box with the stagg logo on it, but I had no use for it other than to store my son's lincoln logs.
- October 10, 2013 at 11:19 AM
- sku said...
Oh yeah, those are the case boxes.
- October 10, 2013 at 11:25 AM
- My Annoying Opinions said...
Don't sleep on the usability of whisky boxes. We couldn't afford to build a shed in our yard but now my Glenfiddich Snow Phoenix tin holds our firewood and lawnmower. And our children sleep in my Amrut Intermediate Sherry box. Really, these things pay for themselves and then some.
- October 10, 2013 at 11:34 AM
Unfortunately, this all goes to the central reason why a consumer buys what that consumer buys. Sure, if you are buying a bottle of Fighting Cock whiskey, for $16.00, you probably are buying it to drink till gone, and then you buy some more. But, as used as an example, you are paying $400.00 for a bottle of whiskey, you are probably buying it for the image (or the image of having great taste). And that is the problem. When image - or investment - is the driving factor, the presentation is as equally important as the liquid inside. This is similar to the fountain pen craze, when someone plunks down thousands of dollars for a limited edition Mont Blanc, and does not even open the package, will have the contents x-rayed and the negative kept, in order to show that there is in fact a pen inside, and the whole thing kept for future resale. A wide range of reasons for the purchase exists. So, one should not be surprised when it all comes to a point of complications, anger and hurt feelings.
- October 10, 2013 at 11:39 AM
The last Wild Turkey 14 Tradition is textbook example of everything annoying about whiskey packaging. Excessive cost for a bunch of garish crap. Just sell the booze in a bottle, I don't care if it's just a screw cap bottle, and leave the faux pewter and mahogany to Ron Burgundy's study.
RN - October 10, 2013 at 11:41 AM
I don't worry about blemishes in the packaging unless it's going to be a gift.
Retailers--Driscoll--I'd be interested to know, though, if there are any types of damage short of breakage that suggest the booze has been mishandled. - October 10, 2013 at 2:29 PM
Perhaps the reaction is less about the packaging and more about the attitude of a certain retailer who takes to their closed-comments blog to complain about customers (you know, the people who pay for things and that you are supposed to provide customer service to) who purchase expensive whisky and have the nerve to be picky. My suggestion for retailers is to focus a bit more on being customer service oriented and a little less on being pseudo-celebrity bloggers. Just think, in the time it took to pen that little entry, an additional 40 emails could have been sent to customers to try and make them happy, rather than voicing your frustration at the people who pay your salary.
- October 10, 2013 at 4:53 PM
"My suggestion for retailers is to focus a bit more on being customer service oriented and a little less on being pseudo-celebrity bloggers"
You see Steve, eventually the real problem always reveals itself. - October 10, 2013 at 5:09 PM
By all means please stop discouraging people from believing there is a premium value to boxes. I'm hoping to retire early and live off my thin Karuizawa cardboard for a few years.
If that fails, I guess I could live in it. - October 10, 2013 at 5:18 PM
LostBottle - I've shopped at K&L for five years and, I'm sure I'm not alone in saying, that David Driscoll is one of the most customer-serviced salesmen I have ever met. When I briefly moved out of state he personally took all my whisky to the post office and shipped it himself (since K&L couldn't do it). I've never had a store go to the lengths to keep my business like K&L has done. I think maybe if you'd actually shopped with them you'd know that already.
- October 10, 2013 at 5:22 PM
If the K&L blog allowed comments it would be troll city. Smart move on their part. You can't write articles like that and expect level-headed responses.
- October 10, 2013 at 5:26 PM
@LostBottle, I don't find that the article complains about customers at all. If anything, it sounds like Driscoll is trying to get people their boxes and that's creating an entirely new set of issues. He's more frustrated that the packaging exists because he can't control its condition. The whole article is anti-packaging, not anti-customer. I think you need to chill out a bit.
- October 10, 2013 at 5:53 PM
I think David D. responds to more than enough customer emails, and I don't think his blog post takes away from that.
If K&L doesn't receive boxes in good condition then it's not their fault. If this were a commodity not in hot demand, the liquor stores could try to refuse damaged goods. But what are you going to do when you get a limited allocation of what your customers want, refuse the shipment (if it's even allowed by law)?
On the other hand, I do like the boxes while I still have the bottles, especially before I have opened them. They are good for protecting the bottle, including from light, and some of them are nice. If I want to display my bottles on a shelf, it's nice to have a mix of boxed and unboxed bottles--not because I fetishize packaging, but because I like to display my "toys" that are one of the interests in my life. Some boxes are nicer than just having a bunch of bottles lined up--one only needs to look at the display case photos on message boards to see examples.
However, I am referring to cheap cardboard tubes and boxes. Over-the-top packaging is unnecessary. There is an unlimited number of designs that can be printed and embossed, and that is enough for me.
By the way, there is absolutely no way a standard box or tube costs 5 GBP in the volumes they buy, regardless of how much of a discount they gave you. - October 10, 2013 at 5:53 PM
This kind of self-centered drivel is why I've totally quit reading StraightBourbon and BourbonEnthusiast.
It's the same 15 guys spouting off endlessly just to hear themselves talk about whiskey, encapsulating previous quotes endlessly. I couldn't care less about them or the damn packaging.
David Driscoll and Sku are voices of reason, and I'm more than happy to listen to what they and their readers (OK, at least Sku's) have to say.
Tomorrow I'm headed to WhiskyFest New York...where the rubber meets the road! - October 10, 2013 at 6:10 PM
sam k, either you lie and did not "entirely quit reading StraightBourbon" or you are yammering on about something you never bothered to read and have no idea about. Which is it?
Speaking of endlessly quoting the same thing, should I sign off with "where the rubber meets the road" or some other tired cliche while promoting my own self-centeredness by trying to impress internet strangers with my plans? - October 10, 2013 at 7:50 PM
- sku said...
Alright folks, let's please not devolve into personal attacks. Thank you.
- October 10, 2013 at 8:26 PM
- My Annoying Opinions said...
"Sku's Recent Eats: Bringing People Together, One Post At A Time"
- October 10, 2013 at 8:28 PM
Agreed on the K&L front. David has put in orders for me via email at 1 AM. The guy is a customer service machine who apparently doesn't sleep.
- October 10, 2013 at 9:33 PM
Looks like someone in this thread inspired their own K&L spirits blog post!
- October 12, 2013 at 11:02 AM
That's interesting, Sku. I throw-out the whiskey and keep the boxes. I also boycott hotels and airports with vending equipment that scuffs the labels of my Sierra Mist. And don't get me started on any McDonald's that has ever tried to rip my family off by handing my child a "Happy Meal" in a bag. It's all about customer service. If you don't have the boxes, then don't pretend to be selling my child a Happy Meal. I will not pay the full Happy Meal price without the pristine Happy Meal box, and I will never patronize their franchise again unless they offer me a groveling apology and generous discount.
- October 12, 2013 at 2:15 PM
Matt - Actually that post was inspired by a guy who sent me an angry three-page email about how my improper use of grammar, and my unwillingness to correct it, insulted him on a personal level. He's not sure if he wants to continue shopping with us as a result. It's one of the most amazing emails I have ever received.
- October 12, 2013 at 4:20 PM
I hope you suggested he read Bourbon Truth (which I quite enjoy -- thanks for the tip, Sku)!
- October 12, 2013 at 4:45 PM
David, he is probably one of RP's disciples.
- October 13, 2013 at 1:09 PM


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Edited. Yes, already.
It's been a challenging few days. The Husband has been working non-stop, which leaves WonderBaby and I in a sort of single-parent family condition, wherein I get very, very tired and sometimes cranky. (How real single-parent families do it, I do not know, I really, really don't. I would be dead from exhaustion by now were it not for the presence, however erratic, of my husband as a parenting partner.) Also, we couldn't celebrate our anniversary, because he was working, which was sad. And, I got sick this weekend and had to spend much of Sunday afternoon laying on the floor on a sniffly haze while a hyper-mobile WonderBaby stomped on my head (which, because numb, did not suffer much damage.)
These things, however, are all manageable. What I'm really struggling with is a sort of identity crisis.
I am no longer a full-time stay-at-home-mom. Nor, however, am I full-time working mom. I am something in between. I have gone back to teaching at the university part-time, because they made me a nice offer and because they said please. And because I like teaching, and because I want to keep my foot in that particular academic door.
So, on Mondays and Wednesdays I leave the house and leave WonderBaby and head out to one of the suburban campuses of the University of Toronto and I teach political philosophy.
I like doing this. I've long been ambivalent about seriously pursuing a career in the academy, but not for lack of love for teaching. I love teaching. I love turning students on to these dusty old books, these fusty old ideas, bringing these to life in the same way that my teachers brought them to life for me. I love seeing students get excited about the puzzles of philosophy. I love it when Plato and Machiavelli and Rousseau and Nietzsche seduce them and transport them and inspire them to talk, to argue, about philosophy and politics and life.
I love this. But it's not motherhood. At the university, I am 'professor,' or even, sometimes, 'Ms.' (and, once, Mrs... which completely blew my mind.) But I am never recognized as a mother, as somebody's mom. Never.
Which, although understandable, feels strange, because I have come to so fully identify with my identity as mother that to be anywhere and to not be wearing my 'mother' hat feels awkward. Awkward, in part, because I had never, ever thought of this identity as a 'hat,' as an identity that could be removed and set aside. Nearly every breath that I have taken, nearly every word spoken, since November 14, 2005, has been as a mother. Even when I went back to teaching, briefly, one evening each week for 6 weeks in the spring, I still felt every inch a mother. I walked and talked as mother; I wore my motherhood as a badge. I announced to my class at the very first lecture, I just had a baby. I had spit-up stains on my clothes. I wore LilyPadz inside my nursing bra. My body felt WonderBaby's absence, every minute of that absence.
Once, during the break in the lecture, while standing at the lectern, fussing with my notes, I burst into song:
I love you
A bushel and a peck
You bet your pretty neck
I doooooo!!!
My head was full of motherhood. I did not, could not, leave my motherhood behind.
Now, I can, and I do. I can and do leave it behind.
And it feels strange, so strange. It feels strange because I both love it, and hate it. I love the feeling of freedom, of being unencumbered by stroller and diaper bag and the random paraphernalia that attends babycare. I love the silence of my office. I love that my head is filled with the words and ideas of dead poets and philosophers, that I can concentrate, think, that the flow of ideas between head and page or head and mouth is not interrupted by Raffi or the Johnny Cash Children's Album. It is freedom from motherhood. It is exhilarating.
But it hurts my heart. In the moments that I pause, and think of WonderBaby - and there are many such moments - my heart contracts and I very nearly gasp for my next breath. I miss her, I am missing her, I am missing seconds, minutes, hours with her. It takes all of my power to keep from running for the bus and heading for home, in those moments.
How can I choose to be apart from her, I ask myself. How can I choose this? But I do choose it. I must choose it.
I must choose to be both mother and myself, these other selves. But it feels, sometimes, like my identity has become fragmented, torn. Will it always feel this way? Or will I, gradually, knit these selves together? Come to terms with all of those missed moments of motherhood?
Or will I, one day, just run for the bus?
If you're going to make a break for it, Mommy, take a cab.
Call to Action posts are still being added to the Changing the World, One Blog at a Time list. I've gotten a bit slow on adding the links, but they are still coming, so keep checking back and keep sending them in.
Because you all keep asking: yes, the Johnny Cash Children's Album is real. How have you been living without it?

subset: commoncrawl


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When I was 14 I finally started spending my own money on haircuts. Of course it was no coincidence that I was in high school and I was in a new town and I didn't think my shaggy, pouffy mullet was really "in" anymore.
No, it was never "in". A combination of poverty and junior high depression resulted in a look that shouted "I haven't had a haircut in 6 months and I feel bad about that and please don't ask me about it!" Think Matthew Broderick in War Games, but add a whole lotta party in the back. No, think the kid in "Iron Eagle". That kind of coif.
So when we moved to Kingston and I had a little allowance money in my pocket I started spending a little of it on haircuts. A very little of it.
At George the $6 Barber. He specialized in the type of cuts the kids going to the Royal Military College needed to get: Buzzed on top, shaved on the sides, "high and tight". I never went that far; I made him work for my $6. But my haircuts were pretty basic. And George was old and practically blind. But even a blind barber can do a simple cut when he's been doing it for 50 years.
Ever since George I've been a big fan of barber shops. They are exceedingly manly sanctuaries, usually with a game on the television and a Maxim or a Playboy lying around to read while you wait for your turn to get your ears lowered. I love the barber.
But, I've also always been a little envious of Emily's "I'm going to get manis and pedis" afternoons. Not because I crave the girl talk or have a desire to get my toes painted; but for the relaxing nature of the experience. My cut takes 15 minutes; it's not exactly "me time". But there is no way in hell I'm going to go hang out at Pinkie's for an afternoon.
But I would like to just relax somewhere. And I'm not so attached to dirty fingernails that I fear a little pampering. If someone could do something about my cuticles or my clogged pores while not also asking me what colour my panties are, that would be great.
It turns out there is a place, a magical land of golf clubs and black leather furniture; of facials and football; of haircuts and beer.
Yeah. Beer.
Apparently at some salons when you walk in they spring champagne or wine on you or something. Champagne makes a fine drink in the afternoon if you are going to wait for your toenails to dry, but it's not my cuppa.
I went to American Male on Saturday, and the hot, bored, receptionist greeted me with my choice of beverage. I opted for a coke, because, well, it was 1 in the afternoon and there was no hockey game on; but it was nice to know that I could have had a beer if I wanted it.
There are golf clubs and skis hanging on the walls, and there is nothing like lavender stinking up the place. Just the scent of leather.
I was taken in hand by Linda, who asked "Have you ever had a paraffin dip?"
Surely that was a line. As was: "You look like that guy on Grey's Anatomy: Dr. McSteamy."
Whatever. They were good lines.
She wouldn't tell me what she was going to dip in wax until I agree to remove my wedding ring. I suppose she didn't want the reminder that she was asking a married man to go into the back room with her.
I admit it: the lines worked on me. I caved. I took off my ring and followed her into the back room.
And then Linda spent an hour doing things to me that no one ever has; touching me in ways that made me forget all about my commitment. To George, the $6 Barber and barbers everywhere.
My hands were dipped in hot paraffin wax and then wrapped in plastic bags and covered with something like an oven mitt. Then she took me over to the shampoo station and had me relax in the chair while she washed and conditioned my hair. And I found out that a facial is essentially a face massage, and it feels awesome. A hot towel on my face and a scalp massage later and I had a hard time remembering what I had even come in for. Hadn't I always been here? Lost in a haze of wax and conditioner?
But really I had come in for a haircut. It just so happens that this cut comes with a half hour of rubbing and stroking.
Eventually Linda and I made it over to another black leather chair. I sat in front of a huge mirror while she came up behind me and asked if I knew what I wanted.
"Um. No, it's my first time."
"Then let me take care of you."
Oh, Linda, baby. I'm in your hands. Forever.
She took care of me, alright. Pulling, tugging, getting out her little brushes every now and then to tickle my eyes and nose. I could see it all in the mirror.
Eventually, too soon, it was over.
"Do you want a blow?"
Wow. I didn't think I could handle that after everything else.
"We'll just let the air take care of you, then."
She had to hint, gently, more than once, that our time was over. I didn't want to hear it. I wanted to stay in that chair forever. But it wasn't to be.
I went to the counter and paid my bill with my personal credit card; I didn't want this one showing up on the joint account statement.
And I booked an appointment for two weeks from now. For a "cleanup".
I may never go back to a barber again. I may pay Linda to "detail" my hands and feet next time, or get a full body massage after my next cut.
I will never have to worry about my palms being hairy. I know that Linda will always be there, with her magic massaging fingers and hot wax.
The Man Spa, and Linda, have ruined me.


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The New York Times' website isn't working for us, and many other users, again this morning. As All Tech Considered reported Tuesday evening, the Times appears to be the victim of another hacking by the Syrian Electronic Army — a pro-Assad organization that has previously taken over the websites of other U.S. news organizations, including NPR.
The Times has created an alternate website to display its stories. Click here to get there. Among the top stories there as of 7 a.m. ET:
-- "Obama Weighs 'Limited' Strikes Against Syrian Forces."
-- "Arab League Rejects Attack Against Syria."
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-- "Merrill Lynch in Big Payout for Bias Case."
-- "Times Site Is Disrupted in Attack by Hackers."
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- Transaction Information: Financial information that is collected is used to check the users' qualifications for registration and to bill the user for products and services. However, payment details are collected directly by our payment vendors and are not received or stored by the company.
- Search: Your search queries on our websites.
Information We Collect Through Automatic Data Collection Technologies
As you navigate through and interact with our websites, we may use automatic data collection technologies to collect certain information, not tied to your user profile on our portal, about your equipment, browsing actions, and patterns, including:
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- Automatic Information: When you visit site, our servers may automatically record certain information that your web browser sends. This may include your activities, your IP address, browser type, browser language, referring URL, platform type, domain names, date/time stamps, and related metadata.
We also may use these technologies to collect information about your online activities on our websites and/or our partners websites over time and across third-party websites or other online services (behavioral tracking).
The information we collect automatically may include personal information or we may maintain it or associate it with personal information we collect in other ways or receive from third parties. It helps us to improve our websites and to deliver better and more personalized services, including by enabling us to:
- Estimate our audience size and usage patterns.
- Store information about your preferences, allowing us to customize our websites according to your individual interests.
- Speed up your searches.
- Recognize you when you return to our websites.
The technologies we use for this automatic data collection may include:
- Cookies (or browser cookies). A cookie is a small file placed on the hard drive of your computer. You may refuse to accept browser cookies by activating the appropriate setting on your browser. However, if you select this setting you may be unable to access certain parts of our websites. Unless you have adjusted your browser setting so that it will refuse cookies, our websites will store cookies when you first visit the websites and when selecting certain options on the websites, such as logging in.
- Web Beacons. Pages of our websites and our emails may contain small electronic files known as web beacons (also referred to as clear gifs, pixel tags, and single-pixel gifs) that permit the Company to do certain things, for example, to count users who have visited those pages or opened an email and for other related website statistics (for example, recording the popularity of certain website content and verifying system and server integrity).
Such information will be gathered solely by the company and is for use solely by the company and trusted partners, including our service providers, sub-processors, and advertising and marketing partners. When we request information that is not required for us to fulfill our promises to you, you will be notified that such information is optional and be given the choice not to provide it.
Analytics and Anonymization
We have implemented Google Analytics features known as Google Analytics Demographics and Interest Reporting. You can opt-out of Google Analytics for Display Advertising and customize Google Display Network ads using the Ads Settings provided by Google. In addition, you can use the Google Analytics Opt-Out Browser Add-on to disable tracking by Google Analytics. We will use the data provided by Google Analytics Demographics and Interest Reporting to further develop and improve our products.
Third-Party Use of Cookies and Other Tracking Technologies
Some content or applications, including advertisements, on our websites are served by third-parties, including advertisers, ad networks and servers, content providers, and application providers. These third parties may use cookies alone or in conjunction with web beacons or other tracking technologies to collect information about you when you use our websites. The information they collect may be associated with your personal information or they may collect information, including personal information, about your online activities over time and across different websites and other online services. They may use this information to provide you with interest-based (behavioral) advertising or other targeted content.
We do not control these third parties' tracking technologies or how they may be used. If you have any questions about an advertisement or other targeted content, you should contact the responsible provider directly.
How We Use Your Information
We use information that we collect about you or that you provide to us, including any personal information:
- To present our websites and their contents to you.
- To provide you with information, products, or services that you request from us.
- To fulfill any other purpose for which you provide it.
- Help streamline our marketing and hosting operations and to improve the quality of the site user-experience.
- To provide you with notices about your account, including expiration and renewal notices.
- To carry out our obligations and enforce our rights arising from any contracts entered into between you and us, including for billing and collection.
- To notify you about changes to our websites or any products or services we offer or provide though it.
- To allow you to participate in interactive features on our website.
- In any other way we may describe when you provide the information.
- For any other purpose with your consent.
- To comply with any relevant laws, regulations, ordinances, rules, directives, or statutes.
If your IP address indicates you are in the European Union or the European Economic Area, we do not use your email address or other personal information to send commercial or marketing messages without your consent.
But if you chose to opt-in to receive marketing materials from us, possibly when you created your account, be aware that we may use your information to contact you about our own and third-parties' goods and services that may be of interest to you. If you do not want us to use your information in this way, please check the relevant box to opt-out located on the account creation form on our websites or at the bottom of any marketing emails you may receive from us. You can also opt-out by sending an email to firstname.lastname@example.com.
You expressly and specifically acknowledge and agree that your email address or other means of communicating with you may be used to send you offers, information or any other commercially oriented emails or other means of communications. You may remove yourself from such mailing lists at any time by following the instructions that shall be sent as part of any such mailings.
Legal bases for processing (For EEA users)
If you are an individual in the European Economic Area (EEA), we collect and process information about you only where we have a legal basis for doing so under applicable EU laws. The legal basis depends on the Services you use and how you use them. This means we collect and use your information only where:
- We need it to provide you with the Services you requested, including to operate the Services, provide customer support and personalized features and to protect the safety and security of the Services, which includes all processing necessary for the performance of our contract(s) with you;
- It satisfies a legitimate interest that is not outweighed by your data protection rights and interests, such as for research and development, to market and promote the Services, and to protect our legal rights and interests;
- You give us consent to do so for a specific purpose; or
- We need to process your data to comply with a legal obligation.
If you have consented to our use of information about you for a specific purpose, you have the right to change your mind at any time, but this will not affect any processing that has already taken place. Where we are using your information because we or a third party (e.g. your employer) have a legitimate interest to do so, you have the right to object to that use although, in some cases, this may mean no longer using our services.
Location of Your data
All of our information, including the personal information about you described in this Privacy Notice, is stored in the United States of America.
Data Retention
We will retain your personal data for the period necessary to fulfill the purposes outlined in this Privacy Notice unless a longer retention period is required or permitted by law.
Disclosure of Your Information
We may disclose aggregated (i.e. anonymized) information about our users, and information that does not identify any individual, without restrictions.
We may disclose personal information that we collect or you provide as described in this Privacy Notice:
- To our subsidiaries and affiliates.
- To contractors, service providers, and other third parties we use to support our business and who are bound by contractual obligations to keep personal information confidential and use it only for the purposes for which we disclose it to them.
- To a buyer or other successor in the event of a merger, divestiture, restructuring, reorganization, dissolution, or other sale or transfer of some or all of company assets, whether as a going concern or as part of bankruptcy, liquidation, or similar proceeding, in which personal information held by the company about our website users is among the assets transferred.
- To fulfill the purpose for which you provide it. For example, if you give us an email address to use the "email a friend" feature of our website, or copy a co-worker on a request being made through our portal, we will transmit the contents of that email/request and possibly your email address to the recipients.
- For any other purpose disclosed by us when you provide the information.
- With your consent.
We may also disclose your personal information:
- To comply with any court order, law, or legal process, including to respond to any government or regulatory request.
- To enforce or apply our Terms and Conditions or Privacy Notice and other agreements, including for billing and collection purposes.
- If we believe disclosure is necessary or appropriate to protect the rights, property, or safety of company, our customers, or others. This includes exchanging information with other companies and organizations for the purposes of fraud protection and credit risk reduction.
Choices about How We Use and Disclose Your Information
We strive to provide you with choices regarding the personal information you provide to us. We have created mechanisms to provide you with the following control over your information:
- Marketing Emails. You can review and change your personal information in our marketing systems by using the unsubscribe function on our marketing emails.
- Tracking Technologies and Advertising. You can set your browser to refuse all or some browser cookies, or to alert you when cookies are being sent. If you disable or refuse cookies, please note that some parts of our websites may then be inaccessible or not function properly.
- Promotional Offers from Us. If you do not wish to have your contact information used by the Us to promote our services, you can opt out by un-checking the relevant box located on the form on which we collect your data (the order/registration form) or at any other time by sending us an email stating your request to email@example.com. If we have sent you a promotional email, you may send us a return email asking to be omitted from future email distributions or use the opt-out feature on the email.
Accessing and Correcting Your Information
You are legally entitled to request details of the personal data we are holding about you. The Site provides you the ability to keep your personal data accurate and up-to-date. If at any time you would like Us to rectify, erase or restrict the processing of your personal information, or you would like to obtain confirmation whether or not your personal information is processed by Us to access your personal information, exercise your right to data portability or withdraw your consent to processing, please contact us.
We do our best to respect your privacy rights and provide you access and control over your data. You may make any of the following requests regarding your data by contacting us at firstname.lastname@example.com:
- Access and review your data.
- Correct your data or request that we delete some or all of it.
- Obtain copies of your data in human or and/or machine-readable format suitable for importing to other software.
- Restrict us from using or processing your data.
Be advised that we use a differential backup system; this means that we cannot delete your specific information from our backups. We cannot delete your personal information except by also deleting your user account. We may not accommodate a request to change or delete information if we believe the change or deletion would violate any law or legal requirement or cause the information to be incorrect.
Recourse, Enforcement & Liabiliy
We are committed to investigate and expeditiously resolve complaints about your privacy and our collection or use of your Personal Information. The Company uses the self-assessment method of verification of compliance. Individuals with inquiries or complaints regarding this Privacy Notice should first contact us at firstname.lastname@example.com.
International Data Transfer
Our websites are hosted on our web servers in the United States. If you are located in a non-US jurisdiction, for example in the European Economic Area ("EEA") / European Union ("EU"), you agree that the provision of personal data or other access to our website constitutes your consent to the transfer of such data/information, including personal data, to the United States, a jurisdiction that may not provide an equivalent level of data protection to the laws in your home country. However, we have procedures in place to ensure the protection of your information, including your personal data.
We have implemented measures designed to secure your personal information from accidental loss and from unauthorized access, use, alteration, and disclosure. All information you provide to us is stored on secure servers behind firewalls. The safety and security of your information also depends on you.
Where we have given you (or where you have chosen) a password for access to certain parts of our websites, you are responsible for keeping this password confidential. We ask you not to share your password with anyone. We urge you to be careful about giving out information in public areas of the websites, including chat areas described below. The information you share in public areas may be viewed by any user of the websites.
Unfortunately, the transmission of information via the internet is not completely secure and, although we do our best to protect your personal information, we cannot guarantee the security of your personal information transmitted to our websites, particularly the end computer that you may be using to interact with our websites. Any transmission of personal information is at your own risk. We are not responsible for circumvention of any privacy settings or security measures contained on our websites, described in this Privacy Notice, or stated in our Terms and Conditions.
Your browser offers so-called "cookies," which - if you allow their use - store small amounts of data on your computer about your visit to our websites. Cookies assist us in tracking which of our features you like best. And when you re-visit our websites, cookies can enable us to customize our content according to your preferences. However, cookies tell us nothing about you personally unless you specifically give us additional information.
Cookies used on our websites by category:
- Strictly necessary cookies - These cookies are essential in order to enable you to move around the website and use its features, such as accessing secure areas of our websites.
- Performance cookies - These cookies, including Google Analytics cookies, collect anonymous information on the pages visited. Google Analytics stores information about what pages you visit, how long you are on the site, how you got there, and what you clicked on. This data is collected via a JavaScript tag in the pages of our websites and is not tied to personally identifiable information. By using our websites, you agree that we can place these types of cookies on your device. These cookies collect information about how visitors use a website, for instance, which pages visitors go to most often. These cookies do not collect information that identifies a visitor. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. It is only used to improve how a website works.
- Functionality cookies - These cookies remember choices you made to improve your experience. By using our websites, you agree that we can place these types of cookies on your device. These cookies allow the websites to remember choices you make and provide enhanced, more personal features. The information these cookies collect may be anonymized and they cannot track your browsing activity on other websites.
- Advertising cookies - These cookies are used to deliver advertisements more relevant to you and your interests. They are also used to limit the number of times you see an advertisement as well as help measure the effectiveness of the advertising campaign. They are usually placed by advertising networks with the website operator's permission. They remember that you have visited a website and this information is shared with other organizations such as advertisers. Quite often targeting or advertising cookies will be linked to site functionality provided by the other organization.
You also have choices with respect to cookies. By modifying your browser preferences, you have the choice to accept all cookies, to be notified when a cookie is set, or to reject all cookies. However, note that if you reject some or all cookies, your experience at our websites and on other sites throughout the World Wide Web may not be complete. Some sites require cookies to function, such as those with e-commerce features. In addition, if you do not allow cookies, you will not be able to take advantage of personalized content delivery offered by us or other Internet sites.
Unsolicited Email Received by You
Company does not send unsolicited email to anyone who has requested we do not contact them. Any newsletters that we send are only sent to those who are active members of the site. To stop receiving email or newsletters from the company, either follow the instructions on the email or newsletter itself or send a request to be unsubscribed firstname.lastname@example.com.
The company also does not condone spam by affiliates or chat hosts advertising our websites. Spam by our affiliates is prohibited by our Acceptable Use Policy. Some trusted partners may email a member to present special offers to our members. Further, according to our published policy, if the company becomes aware that a customer or affiliate is in violation of the law or this Acceptable Use Policy, the company reserves the right to impose disciplinary action in its sole discretion. Our disciplinary action may include: removal from our servers of files that violate our Acceptable Use Policy, the expulsion of the customer from the site's program, termination of site services, and forfeiture of all commissions.
If you have any questions about this Privacy Notice, please contact our data protection officer at email@example.com and provide us with your name, the site name of your membership, your login name, and any information you feel is important.
If you are concerned about an alleged breach of privacy law or any other regulation by the company, you can contact our Data Protection Officer who will investigate your complaint and give you information about how it will be handled.
If you are not satisfied with the way in which the company has resolved your complaint, you have the right to complain to the data protection authority in your country. You may also refer the matter to a court of competent jurisdiction.
Revisions to this Privacy Notice
Jordan-Prryce.com reserves the right to change this Privacy Notice from time to time. If we make material changes to how we treat our users' personal information, we will notify you through a notice on the corporate website home page, via email, or when you log in to use our portal. Please check the Privacy Notice frequently and particularly before you submit additional personal information via our websites. All revisions to this Privacy Notice will be posted on our websites via a link from the homepage. We also display the effective date of the Privacy Notice on the bottom of this page.
Last updated: 27-08-2019
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This rectangular pendant features a flower encased in resin within an alpaca silver frame and bale. Measures 0.75 inches long.
Meet the Artisans
The artisans of Tecalpulco, Mexico have long been known for their silver and abalone jewelry. ArtCamp, short for Artesanas Campesinas (or rural female artisans), is a women-owned cooperative that continues this tradition. The group constantly introduces new methods, materials, and machinery to compete in the highly competitive jewelry market, even surviving a collapse in the marketability of their pieces in the 1990‰۪s after jewelry from other countries flooded the US market. The artisans have become business women, understanding the importance of customer service, quality, and design. Their product range includes semi-precious stones, shells, and even tiny flowers captured in resin. Each piece is accentuated by silver alloys or precious metals, and represents the tradition of fine Mexican jewelry . |


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Les Petits Bellots
Les Petits Bellots is an independent, multi-branch, bilingual mini-crèche located in London, welcoming children from the age of 6 months to 4 years.
Our aim is to encourage happy, confident children to take an interest in their surroundings and interact positively with others. This is achieved through a combination of free play, storytime, dancing and structural activities within bilingual sessions in French and English.
Short sessions offering two-hour breaks are a great solution for those who prefer a short-term option to the longer-term nursery shifts. You get time for yourself without having to give up your child for the whole day: your child learns French, a little independence, and the ability to socialise in a happy setting.
Our mini-crèche consists of an experienced, qualified team of French and English-speaking staff, using their skills to ensure the intellectual, physical, emotional and social development of the child. We cap the classes at eight children so the teaching and playing really is unique.


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Jan Lee
Jan Lee is a former news editor and award-winning editorial writer whose non-fiction and fiction have been published in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, the U.K. and Australia. Her articles and posts can be found on TriplePundit, JustMeans, and her blog, The Multicultural Jew, as well as other publications. She currently splits her residence between the city of Vancouver, British Columbia and the rural farmlands of Idaho.


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Huffington Post reports:
LAKE CHARLES, La. — A Louisiana pastor was fatally shot as he preached to a crowd of more than 60 during a revival service and a suspect has been arrested, law enforcement officials said Saturday.
The shooting at about 8:20 p.m. Friday was at Tabernacle of Praise Worship Center in Lake Charles, Calcasieu Parish Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Kim Myers said Saturday. Sixty-five people were inside at the time, including the victim's wife, said Chief Deputy Stitch Guillory.
Deputies have no information on a motive or on whether the preacher and suspect knew each other, Myers said.
Myers said Pastor Ronald J. Harris Sr. was shot twice by the gunman. The man went into the church while Harris was preaching and "walked up to him and shot him at close range," Myers said. The suspect shot him again when Harris fell to the floor.
The pastor was pronounced dead at the scene.
Woodrow Karey, 53, of Lake Charles is charged with second-degree murder and was held in the parish jail Saturday, Myers said. Karey's bond has been set at $1 million.
The gunman left the church, but Myers said Karey called the sheriff's office and surrendered.
Myers said after picking up Karey, deputies found two guns in a wooded area – one was a shotgun, the other a .22-caliber pistol.
Myers said Karey has no known criminal history.
Myers said deputies were "interviewing everybody who was there at the church."
Family members who answered the telephone Saturday at the Harris home in Lake Charles said there would be no comment. There was no answer at a telephone listing for Karey or at Tabernacle of Praise.


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Forum Post: WHO Agency: Air Pollution Causes Cancer
Posted 10 years ago on Oct. 17, 2013, 3:11 p.m. EST by LeoYo
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
WHO Agency: Air Pollution Causes Cancer
By MARIA CHENG4 hours ago
LONDON (AP) — What many commuters choking on smog have long suspected has finally been scientifically validated: air pollution causes lung cancer.
The International Agency for Research on Cancer declared on Thursday that air pollution is a carcinogen, alongside known dangers such as asbestos, tobacco and ultraviolet radiation. The decision came after a consultation by an expert panel organized by IARC, the cancer agency of the World Health Organization, which is based in Lyon, France.
"The air most people breathe has become polluted with a complicated mixture of cancer-causing substances," said Kurt Straif, head of the IARC department that evaluates carcinogens. He said the agency now considers pollution to be "the most important environmental carcinogen," ahead of second-hand cigarette and cigar smoke.
IARC had previously deemed some of the components in air pollution such as diesel fumes to be carcinogens, but this is the first time it has classified air pollution in its entirety as cancer causing. The risk to the individual is low, but Straif said the main sources of pollution are widespread, including transportation, power plants, and industrial and agricultural emissions.
Air pollution is a complex mixture that includes gases and particulate matter, and IARC said one of its primary risks is the fine particles that can be deposited deep in the lungs of people.
"These are difficult things for the individual to avoid," he said, while observing the worrying dark clouds from nearby factories that he could see from his office window in Lyon on Wednesday. "When I walk on a street where there's heavy pollution from diesel exhaust, I try to go a bit further away," he said. "So that's something you can do."
The fact that nearly everyone on the planet is exposed to outdoor pollution could prompt governments and other agencies to adopt stricter controls on spewing fumes. Straif noted that WHO and the European Commission are reviewing their recommended limits on air pollution.
Previously, pollution had been found to boost the chances of heart and respiratory diseases.
The expert panel's classification was made after scientists analyzed more than 1,000 studies worldwide and concluded there was enough evidence that exposure to outdoor air pollution causes lung cancer. In 2010, IARC said there were more than 220,000 lung cancer deaths worldwide connected to air pollution. The agency also noted a link with a slightly higher risk of bladder cancer.
Straif said there were dramatic differences in air quality between cities around the world and that the most polluted metropolises were in China and India, where people frequently don masks on streets to protect themselves. China recently announced new efforts to curb pollution after experts found the country's thick smog hurts tourism. Beijing only began publicly releasing data about its air quality last year.
"I assume the masks could result in a reduction to particulate matter, so they could be helpful to reduce personal exposure," Straif said. But he said collective international action by governments was necessary to improve air quality.
"People can certainly contribute by doing things like not driving a big diesel car, but this needs much wider policies by national and international authorities," he said.
Other experts emphasized the cancer risk from pollution for the average person was very low — but virtually unavoidable.
"You can choose not to drink or not to smoke, but you can't control whether or not you're exposed to air pollution," said Francesca Dominici, a professor of biostatics at Harvard University's School of Public Health. "You can't just decide not to breathe," she said. Dominici was not connected to the IARC expert panel.
A person's risk for cancer depends on numerous variables, including genetics, exposure to dangerous substances and lifestyle choices regarding issues such as drinking alcohol, smoking and exercising. Dominici said scientists are still trying to figure out which bits of pollution are the most lethal and called for a more targeted approach. "The level of ambient pollution in the U.S. is much, much lower than it used to be, but we still find evidence of cancer and birth defects," she said. "The question is: How are we going to clean the air even further?"
Online: http://www.iarc.fr/en/publications/books/sp161/index.php


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A spinning back elbow.
It's a Mixed Martial Arts move that separates the men from the boys. And, women from the girls.
But Elsie Zwicker and Brenda Gonzales were anything but ladylike Saturday night.
The two professionals duked it out in the main event of King of the Cage "Battlegrounds"
Duking it out may be an understatement.
Zwicker and Gonzales indeed battled like warriors, as the home Ute Mountain Casino fans chanted "Elise, Elsie, Elsie."
Then, came the spinning back elbow, and down went Zwicker.
The raucous chants for its McElmo Canyon hero quickly turned to a collective gasp. A collective deep breath that sucked the air out of the room. Zwicker laid on the ground getting the wind knocked out her by Gonzales.
With the women's 125-pound junior flyweight world title belt on the line and Zwicker's eyes nearly swelled shut, the cage official called the fight at the 4:59 mark of the secondround.
Gonzales, 30, retained her championship belt and moved her pro record to 4-0. As she leaned back against the cage holding a bag of ice to her face while catching her breath, Zwicker (6-5) remained on the ground.
Once Zwicker, the one they call "Sweetheart" came to her feet, the fans applauded and the two fierce competitors congratulated each other.
"I felt a little sluggish. The first-round, she came out balls to the wall, you know. She's just tough," Gonzales said. "The second round, I got a little tired. I just kind of knew I had to land some big shots and take control."
Both battered and bruised, it was Gonzales who would gain control with the spinning back elbow.
"That's one of my favorite moves. I practice that a lot," Gonzales said. "I was hoping to catch that (drop) kick and If I was right on the money, it would be a game changer. I threw it and got it to land."
Zwicker matched Gonzales' intensity in the first five-minute round. But Gonzales, a former boxer from Moriarty, N.M., just had more left in the tank in Round 2.
"She definitely got me with at least two good punches. They blurred my vision. She hits hard," said Zwicker, 30, while holding an ice pack against her bandaged face. "The elbow that caught me above the eye, really dazed me. It rung my bell. I was trying to recover from that, but she was following through (with punches)."
It was Zwicker's first loss at home. But in a sport filled with the ultimate highs and lows, Montezuma County's favorite sweetheart is sure to be back in the cage.
In the other pro fight, Grant Hobbs made quick work of 38-year-old Dameon Baker at 125 pounds.
The former Dove Creek wrestler body slammed Baker (Rawlins, Wyo.) and took tke control early. Baker briefly seized control pinning Hobbs against cage.
However, Hobbs secured a reversal and Baker was on the ground. Hobbs packed a 1-2 punch of grappling and boxing, with the latter resulting in Baker's demise. Hobbs kept connecting with punch after punch, and the official signaled for the bell.
Hobbs (Cortez Lifer MMA) upped his pro record to 2-1 with a knockout at the 1:51 mark of the first-round.
"Hard work and dedication is what it takes, and that's what you've seen tonight," Hobbs said. "Everybody knows me as this two-time state champion wrestler. I'm not just a wrestler. I'm a Mixed Martial Artist. I can go from the ground to my feet, back-and-forth. It doesn't matter."
Hobbs was cool and calm with a confident demeanor, acting like he's suppose to be winning in the cage. It was Hobbs' second straight triumph as a pro fighter.
"I didn't have any pressure on me. I was 1-1 as a pro," he said. "I knew I had to do something to stay alive and stay on the positive side. I just went in there and did it like I do every time. I stayed calm and relaxed, and pulled the trigger when I needed to."
Lifer MMA was 2-0 on the night.
Joey Trevino avenged his last loss at 130 pounds. It took just 38 seconds to even his amateur record at 2-2 with a win by first-round guillotine chokehold submission over Kyle Platero (Grants, N.M.).
"An excellent day for us," said Kaan Clark, trainer at and owner of Lifer MMA. "They all did really good. They all listened to their corner and did what they were supposed to do. You train hard and that's the end result."
The next King of the Cage fights at the Ute Mountain Casino are tentatively scheduled for March, 2013.
[email protected].


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macOS Mojave Compatibility Information for Digital Imaging Products and Application Software
Refer to the following links for information about macOS® Mojave version 10.14 compatibility for Digital Imaging products and application software.
Note: If a link isn't available for your product or software, it is still under evaluation.
- Application Software
- α (Alpha) Digital Cameras
- Cyber-shot® Cameras
- Digital Camcorders
- Bloggie® and Webbie HD Cameras
- Accessories
- System Software (Firmware) Updater


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©2011 Mark Allen |
Thursday, October 27, 2011
Some More Dwimmermount Art
59 comments:
So, the first codex will include all of your "house rules" for Labyrinth Lord? Then the second codex will provide details on Dwimmermount itself? Will the third also include descriptions of Dwimmermount? And I assume the surrounding territories will be described as well.
The first one is house rules for LL, yes. The second describes new monsters and treasures from my campaign. The third is the setting and referee-related rules. Dwimmermount itself is getting its own complete product and I'll have more to say about that later.I hate to float a Baby Ruth bar into the pool party, but I'm not liking the characters too much. This knight/warrior at a dungeon entrance just looks too much to me like the illustration of what old school Dungeons and Dragons would look like in a jr. high school history book 200 years from now, drawn by somebody who only got two sentences of description about the game. Maybe after 3 years + of checking out the OSR, I'm just getting tired of "iconic" old school imagery. It was all cool and nostalgic at first, but now I'm kind of heading back towards what made me grow out of a lot of things like classic dungeons (the more of this old school homage stuff I see the more attracted to Carcosa and even old school Runequest I get).
Not bad art at all in general, and the tunnel and entrance does stir up those old school good feelings a tad. I just don't like it with that knight/paladin/fighter/cavalier/whatever-he-is in it.
And the lady? What the hell is the old broad at the Ren Faire who works at the Toad-in-a-Hole booth doing schlepping into a dungeon? Are you freaking kidding me? I'm all for changing up from the hot, half-demon sorceress chicks (hmm...maybe not), but c'moan. I tell you what, you get girls to play in your D&D game, this certainly is not the image of their character you had in mind when they said "can I play an MU?" Or maybe they had to roll 3D6 in order, did pretty bad, and just said "screw it. She's old. Nobody said you had to be young and athletic to tackle the Tomb of Horrors."Very nice artwork.
Although I was never a fan of the great helm when dungeoneering. A bascinet (or open-faced) helm gives much better protection because you are able to see your opponent clearly, and more importantly, the opponent approaching you from the side. Plus they are hot to fight in.
And the illustration shows quite nicely why my favourite dungeoneering weapon (as a fighter) is the shortsword. Nothing better for close quarters. Horseman-weapons, such as the longsword, just don't cut it. <grin>Reread what I wrote James. I was calling on my own superficiality and wasn't taking a knock at women at all.
But out of the two dozen + females I've had as regular players since I was in my late teens I don't think any of them ever created a character that was much older than their early 30's. I don't think that is superficial at all, but it's the truth of it. They weren't always beautiful and boxum, but they certainly never rolled up a crone.
For all I know that is an NPC guiding the fighter in that pic (charm person?), so it's cool. It's just that if it's meant to be a character, having her be a lady in her 60's wearing peasant garb is a strange change-up to me. IMHO. Perhaps others will find it barrier-breaking or thinking outside the box or whatever. Most of your readers seem pre-sold on anything you show at this point, but on this point I just differ from the majority. Mob rules.>>Reverance Pavane
"A bascinet (or open-faced) helm gives much better protection"
Erm, an open-faced helm doesn't give much better protection that a great helm by its very nature of being open-faced. :)
Also, as a confirmed pedant :) I feel the need to point out that historically bascinets are a later time period than great helms.
Of course, d&d (and fantasy rpgs generally) are notorious for lumping together arms and armour from different time periodsSo what you're saying is that women are shallow and superficial and would never play a character who isn't young and beautiful?
I've never played an unattractive character, nor have any of my girlfriends... so for the most part yes. Not always necessarily beautiful, but always at least somewhat cute or attractive... and in my experience hardly anyone makes an adventurer who isn't young.
As to the art itself I do have to agree with brunomac... It may just be my late entry into the hobby, but the whole "ren-faire" look that seems to be in vogue to the old-school community just looks... silly to me, particularly in conjunction with the idea that old-school play is a little grittier and more mercenary. A certain amount of stylization to make adventurers look cool is a good thing. I'm not saying full dungeonpunk, but...
Well... look at Johnny Weismuller in a pair of brown trunks, Errol Flynn in a green unitard and felt jerkin, or Burt Ward in elf booties and green underwear.
Now look at Tarzan as drawn by Disney, Jonas Armstrong with a cowl and leather armor, or Robin as drawn throughout the 90s and oughts.
Which one looks more like a reject from a panto, and which one looks like someone that knows how to throw down? Keep in mind I'm not asking what's more accurate to the text (Tarzan) or the period (Robin Hood), I'm just saying that they look more like they might be taken seriously, without being excessive at that.Rach, I don't say so because you agree with me to a degree, but damn you are wise beyond your years. I wish I could put it as well as you do. All those updates you mention were great.
Going forward without losing what is good about the subject. Heaven forbid, even adding to what is great about it.@Red Cardinal: I do disagree, since it allows you better visibility in what is already a very limited visibility situation. [This allows you to block and parry much more effectively. Of course I'm assuming that a fighter knows how to use his armour and weapons to best effect, rather than just stand there and take it.]
Sure people can thrust toward the face, but your instincts actually help protect in that situation (and would provoke the same shield response anyway). So, you are slightly more vulnerable to an archer's critical hit. I'd take the extra visibility any day.
But more importantly it allows you to see a lot more of what's happening outside of combat, which greatly increases your survivability in the dungeon environment. Hence, less likelihood of taking damage, hence better protection. <grin>
As for the time periods, well, I agree we are talking D&D here. And I suspect that in a magical universe where magic armour exists the art of metallurgy is going to be much more advanced (after all, it was the basis of the magical aspects of alchemy in ours), and thus it is more likely to be produced earlier in the "ahistorical record," and for much the same reasons. The great helm has the simple attribute that it was easy to produce with quite primitive metalworking techniques.@Bruno,
I think your looking at the picture in the wrong way: Instead of asking how the hell would this old magic user lady be exploring the dungeons of Dwimmermont, you should be thinking what could be the reason she's there at all. Obviously the knight is acting as her guardian and it looks like they're not just rummaging around killing uglies and taking their stuff, but on a mission of some sort that only they know. I don't know if James has any plans of making those two as NPC's, but I certainly will. It's not only a a good illustration but makes you think a bit.Iron: nice that I could be looking at it the wrong way, while you have it all figured out with zero evidence to anything you said. But still...all sooooooooo obvious.
If this gets you thinkin', then some actual unique and inspiring artwork must make your melon explode like in Scanners. Like I said, many of JM's readers are pre-sold, so stick figures going down a dungeon would probably get a nice round of golf clapping going on here.If this gets you thinkin', then some actual unique and inspiring artwork must make your melon explode like in Scanners. Like I said, many of JM's readers are pre-sold, so stick figures going down a dungeon would probably get a nice round of golf clapping going on here.
I'm sure there are plenty of other blogs out there you can visit, if the atmosphere here doesn't meet your high standards of creativity and open mindedness. It grows tiresome when every single comment you make is contrarian to no good purpose. I get it: you're a freethinker who's "grown beyond" of all this stuff we silly fuddy-duddies somehow still think is cool. Great. Move on and leave us to our delusions.Bruno: Thank you. I'm practically blushing.
James: I can say that I'd probably enjoy the occasional bit of stick-figure art, myself. One thing I am very fond of about old-school art is there being room for many different styles and interpretations of the same subject matter in the same book. Modern RPGs tend to have more unified illustrations that tend to all kind of feel similar, even if I do think they have a more exciting style. As a matter of fact the 4e "Player's Strategy Guide" supplement was that it had some more offbeat artistic choices, including a few pieces (as well as the cover) being done by Mike Krahulik of Penny Arcade.
As always I don't wish to seem contrarian, but I like that I have a different, more new-school viewpoint and I hope that it proves useful to James and the readers of this blog in making their game the best it can be by offering a contrasting opinion to think critically about.I'm sorry you see negative in all the comments I've made, present and past, but in reality most have been of a positive bent towards you. But I guess when all you hear is applause for so long, even the smallest disagreement of styles is going to be viewed by you as a scathing YDIS jab, especially if it's in your own comments area that you obviously want to keep "pure."
If ass-kissing sycophant action is what you are seeking, then yeah, you won't get it from me. But you've got plenty of people using words "outstanding," "fantastic," and "knocked-out" for what seems to me an obsession with same-old same-old. I would think you'd welcome the occasional dissenting opinion just to be "open-minded," or at least to be humble to some degree. Or at least to avoid an embarresment of booty smooch riches.When you make a picture, not everyone's gonna like it.
However the only reason I can think of to actually go ahead and comment on it would be:
-to encourage an artist if you do like what they do, or
-voice some point of view that should matter to the person making/showing the work and make them think about changing something, (like "I can;t tell what that thing on the left is")
Nothing about any of this is more than "I personally don't like this picture" or "I don;t think some other person will like it".
Unless James is trying to make huge $$$$ off this project by selling to people with sensibilities unlike his own (which he isn't) then he has no reason to care if you like it or not. If you do like it that's great, that's encouraging--it's helpful in this discouraging world to say something encouraging, if you don't it accomplishes nothing to register your opinion if it has no constructive suggestion embedded in it.
"James you could maybe get some more girls to play in your dungeon if the girl was drawn different" doesn't actually help unless James cares all that much who buys the dungeon.
That's the awesome thing about the hobby business--you only have to please you and people like you.it accomplishes nothing to register your opinion if it has no constructive suggestion embedded in it.
Indeed. I've never understood the need of people to drop by a blog or forum to post variations on "I don't like it" when, clearly, others do. There's nothing useful in that kind of comment and it only serves to generate negativity where there was no need for it.Right:"Hey corporation with a market monopoly on a form of entertainment and therefore major cultural impact over decades of children, take all races genders colors and creeds into account when you make things!"
Wrong:"Hey guy who is printing 2000 of something in his basement and maybe selling 400 of them if he's lucky (while his wife yells at him to get off the damn Mac) to like-minded folk because he loves it and it's his major and perhaps only source of creative expression, fuck what you want---make it the way I want because most people are like me and it's your responsibility to Grow The Hobby!"How's the Fighter going to get that door open, when his hands are full with sword & shield? >:)
Zak S:
"Right:"Hey corporation with a market monopoly on a form of entertainment and therefore major cultural impact over decades of children, take all races genders colors and creeds into account when you make things!"
I find that corporate attitude incredibly annoying, personally. If Tolkien had done that, LoTR would have sucked. If REH had done that, Conan's Hyborea would have sucked, etc.@S'mon
You missed the point:
those guys weren't companies, they were artists.
Besides: I didn't say the companies should listen, I just said that that it wasn't totally pointless to bitch at them and at least ask them to listen to you. They publish a variety for things, they may be able to make room for you by hiring ADDITIONAL artists and writers who are more up your alley.
Unlike bitching at artists and writers, which is totally pointless. They gotta make what they make.I also have a problem with the art, and it is the same problem I have with fantasy when it becomes generic: it is interchangeable and devoid of its own character.
The man is a knight, the woman is a crone, the stair is a stair and the door is a door. All four are almost improbably generic representatives of an idea. That door right there is the generic fantasiest door one could draw, the kind you find in Ye Olde Englande-themed restaurants. Its "fantasy doorness" is unchallenging and obvious. As a piece of artwork, this one does not suggest, does not invoke, does not add, it only describes. It says, "two adventurers, an armoured knight and an old crone, descend into a dungeon on a winding staircase, terminating in an old door". There is nothing more in it. As a result, the scene is technically proficient, but flat and easy to forget. There is no reason for it to exist other than break up text and consume white space.
That does not mean I consistently want art with Otus-inspired weirdness (when that becomes a genre, it produces its own generica, some of it http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2010/02/furious-rant-in-pictures.html actually done by Erol when trying to imitate himself). Rather, I want art that goes beyond the repetition of general fantasy images. Even art depicting the vanillaest AD&D campaign can be good art: Trampier's graphics worked from the same pseudo-mediaeval imagery as this illustration, but he added a scruffy aesthetic to his characters. David Sutherland, another TSR alumnus, infused his work with a comic book-like dynamism and an amateur charm. Therefore, their artwork is memorable even when some of it was technically sub-par.I'd like to point out that I did not make an attack on the artist, actually I like his style that I see on his website (there's what seems to me like actual art genius there in a sketch of London bobbies coming up on Jack the Ripper that I like a lot). I don't attack artists, but I do bitch sometimes on what they are given to work with.
Although for some reason I find it weird almost to the point of disturbing when somebody would want no dissenting opinions on a blog about games, but if it's your house I guess you can shout out rules about it. But to say it has no meaning or doesn't add (especially the very weird defense of "he's just a guy in the basement printing out small runs on his own dime so leave-em alone!"), well, my chiming in got another couple of people to speak up with their alternative opiniions, and to me that is doing something worthwhile...people discussing something in a thread. "Wow - that's amazing!" is not great conversation to me. Guys like James R. at LOTFP seem to actually thrive on alternative, sometimes to the negative, views on his work. I'm getting more respect for people like that the more I see of it.
But James, I will say this in all honesty, at least you don't delete out the negative comments which some others actually do.@Bruno
Here's James:
"Hey guys, I'm making some steak and eggs to eat. There's enough for everybody so if you want some you can have it."
A handful of people:
"Yay! Eggs!"
"I don;t like eggs, I don't think some girls I know will like eggs, and, furthermore, all you people are a mob for saying you like them"
"Ummm....we should care why? And we're a mob why?"
"Whatever, man, you're stifling my dissenting opinion!"
Did you honestly, totally, completely, no shit, -entirely- miss the part of all the stuff posted before where the explicit criteria for making posting your "dissenting opinion" worthwhile is that you do it for a reason?
Nothing in any of your posts includes a -reason- why JM should care about what you think. (Or why a handful of people who disagree with you and are trying to encourage an egg-making guy are a 'mob'.)
Include one, then you've earned your right to have your "dissenting opinion" be worth typing out.Like, do you see this as just a "dissenting opinion"?:
"Like I said, many of JM's readers are pre-sold, so stick figures going down a dungeon would probably get a nice round of golf clapping going on here."
That's just pissing on people for liking something you don't.
And James called you on it--and that's when it got nasty.
And you'll go "Well, jeez can't you guys take a joke?"
Really, of all the human beings on planet earth to direct your razor wit toward, why do you pick a dozen people who are fans of a goddamn person making a goddamn aid for a goddamn game hardly anyone anyone plays?
Do you pull a Simon Cowell whenever you pass a music student playing a cello on the street for nickels?
"Hey, you suck!"
"Fuck off!"
"This is America I have a right to a dissenting opinion you tyrant!"
Yeah: you are totally allowed to have an opinion.
And the rest of the world is totally allowed to ask you what the fuck your opinion has to do with anything important to them.Zak, calm your nerd rage. I can't really answer you with a straight face, becuase while you rant about this subject here, over at LOTFP you're calling dissenting opinions gold and having a good time with it and suggests it moves product. Why not here? Because it doesn't match what you currently want to say and the point you are angrily trying to make. Helluva two-faced huckster, dude. Stop trying to be the angry girlfriend to the guys with blogs you like, getting in the face of a guy at the bar talking mess to your man. Offer James the respect of letting him have the rebuttal, rather than you're raging bitch-on.
No, I don't do a Simon Cowell number on anyone, but I do know what I like and what I don't. I've praised plenty of things James posts over the years, and don't shit or piss on anything he does. I don't think knocking what I don't like about a particular piece of art is that shitty. That going so far is an attempt at bad humor is pissing on it, well, he made his point personally to me and quite well. Seeing as YDIS (which seems to have vanished, which I'd like to know more about) targeted James with an especially assholish post last week, I can for sure see how my timing was pretty bad, and I should have tried to be more like Rach in my critism. If my humor mixed in fails, then it's on me. For that James, I apologize.
On another subject, I would like to thank those of you who contacted me with congrats on the sweet Caddyshack reference. At least I got a couple laughs in the midst of my harshness. Happy Halloween all (even you Zak)."I can for sure see how my timing was pretty bad, and I should have tried to be more like Rach in my critism. "
There you go.
That's all you had to say.
Stop trying to make jokes. Or work on them harder.
Calling me an "angry girlfriend" and a "huckster" is just doing the same thing all over again.
As for two-faced:
If you can't simultaneously make noise about something you care about
realize that noise moves product
make a joke about it.
Then you are really not grasping the Southern California lifestyle.Look, I've never been a big OS fan. I've got a lot of respect for the OSR because I really believe, especially with the release of 4e (which I detest), that we need to go back and examine the origins of role-playing (particularly with D&D). I don't comment often, but I feel the need to throw my own two pennies into the mix.
One of the biggest issues I have with the OSR, though, is the outright worship of all things OS. I'm sorry, although I enjoy a lot of the OS elements, I find the art generally uninspiring, especially when compared to the later 2E period. This picture that was posted isn't bad, but it is not equal to Elmore. Sorry, Trampier's art is good but it isn't equal to Elmore either. The angles, poses, and overall framing of most OS artwork is primitive, frankly. I'm not trying to say that Trampier or other OS artists suck--indeed, they're far more capable artists than I will ever be. However, I do not see the excessive virtues that many OS fans seem to attribute to it.
I agree with Rach and Brunomac whole-heartedly. And I do believe that almost everybody on this comment thread is misunderstanding Brunomac's complaint (perhaps purposely). Brunomac is threatening something that has become a sort of sacred cow, especially here on Grognardia. And I believe that sacred cows SHOULD be threatened. Self-examination and self-criticism is a virtue. OS art has a strong nostalgia appeal, but if some people are growing tired of it and desiring different artwork and say as much, construing it as an ad hominem attack and responding in kind indicates that many OSR reformers are becoming ossified in their tastes and have a deeply vested interest in not having their bubbles burst. What Brunomac seems to be addressing (and the point that everyone seems to be missing because they're all too busy being offended) is that artistic tastes ARE becoming ossified and he's tired of it. By pointing out the flaws in the artwork, he's not criticizing the artist, but the art and indicating why he's tired of it.
One of the first things I learned in college was that one cannot identify too closely with one's work because IT WILL BE CRITICIZED and if one's work doesn't get thoroughly assessed one's style and skill will never improve. Indeed, if one only is praised, even for mediocrity, then mediocrity is all they'll ever deliver.
If you guys are all so immature as to take offense, I'm sorry but I thought we were all adults here. Let's please act like it and stop taking this stuff so personally.
As for the criticisms regarding the female in the picture... please. I mean, frankly, the straw-man was absolutely PATHETIC. I'm surprised Brunomac actually confronted it. It's a non-point. You guys basically latched on to an aspect of his argument and purposely blew it up in order to make him appear to have said something he didn't and imply that he's sexist. Straw-man attacks and ad hominem sophistry don't make you right. They just make you bad at making a logical argument. We should be above this sort of thing. We are not enemies. At least, I'd like to think we aren't.
Mark's picture isn't bad. It's good. I like it. It's actually superior to a lot of OS art I've seen in OS materials. It's well shaded and the artist really captures the three-dimensional depth of the passage leading up the stairs. I like that.
However, it is indicative of a style that I find is getting beaten to death. The angle of the picture is perfectly flat and the positions of the characters look a bit stiff. The subject is excessively typical for the OS. I'd like to see something a bit more creative. Since Dwimmermount grew out of an attempt to run a sort of Platonic ideal of an OS game, that's not necessarily a weakness, admittedly. The problems with the art don't mean Mark did a shitty job. It means he can improve; he should improve; life is about improvement.@Dave Cesarano
You said:
"Trampier's art is good but it isn't equal to Elmore either."
As if it was a fact.
Bruno said:
"Like I said, many of JM's readers are pre-sold, so stick figures going down a dungeon would probably get a nice round of golf clapping going on here."
(which was inexcusable--then admitted:)
"If my humor mixed in fails, then it's on me."
Pretending everyone's complaining "Oh no criticism" is a strawman argument.
The problem is there's a way to make your view known in a helpful way, and there's a way to make your view known
Which is what is happening here.
And it's not helpful because instead of highlighting your ideas, it highlights you.
So: Dave, improve. You should improve; life is about improvement.Then, hey, don't make frat boy jokes about your favorite blogger and his readers because he goes into a little back-and-forth with you
don't make a personal attack on one of my best friends out of nowhere based on nothing more than "you heard her name and occupation"
Because those things are what is going to make me notice that you are acting like a jerk on the internet.So: Dave, improve. You should improve; life is about improvement<<<
So is your comment to Dave to "improve" a "joke", or are you just that into being a pretentious, arrogant dick?
I said I wanted to go ahead and try to leave the negative behind in James comments (not because of your meltdown, but out of respect to him) butyou know what dude? Despite how unsavory you find my words, Dave was not insulting to you, James, or anybody here. Insulting him over his fairly insightful and respectful comments just because he calls you on your overly dramatic bitching over all this shows you for what you really are. It takes away any of the meaning your ranting anger may have had. Jeez dude. Save your bile for me if I'm the one you're having a problem with.All,
While I understand that things can sometimes get a little heated in these conversations, I'm going to step in here and remind everyone that, while it's OK to criticize ideas, it's definitely not OK to criticize people. Disagree all you want amongst yourselves and/or with me, but doing so politely and without resorting to veiled or not-so veiled attacks on others is far more likely to get your point across.
As for art, I'm too old to argue about it as if doing so could somehow change anyone's opinions about what they like. But I do know what I like and that's what I've commissioned and will continue to commission. If others like it, too, awesome. If they don't, c'est la vie. The great thing about old school gaming is that it's not about any single thing and, for every stodgy old stick in the mud like mean, there are plenty of others going out on a limb to do other things. If you're expecting neophilia or avant-gardism at a blog called Grognardia, you're going to be in for a disappointment.I get it James, and again I apologize for starting any mess with how I went about expressing my opinion. I don't think my opinion matters that much in the grand or small scheme, but as a three-year reader of your blog, and having been originally inspired by it to put myself out there as a blogger. I maybe felt a little overly entitled/aggresive in putting my personal feeling out there. Sort of like picking on a best friend, something like that can get too comfortable.
Again, I like the artist. And I understand and truly believe you are sharing your stuff just out of joy of sharing it. Your a writer, so a bit of payback for costs is understandable and makes sense.
Like I said, I'll try to keep it to the positive (or at least leave out "frat boy" stuff as best I can) from here on in, and if I want to go ape-sh*t over something I'll do it at my little blog which doesn't get much attention anyway.
Safe Halloween to you and your family. Enjoy that Drac flick and have Snickers-fueled dreams of classic horror! Peace.I like the piece as a tongue-in-cheek fond reference to the dodgy fantasy artwork of long ago. As a serious piece of illustration the concept and execution is decent highschool.
Here's my question, is the effusive praise mostly on show here in appreciation of the inherent self-parody or is it for reals?I like the style, like the (arguably) appropriate armour and gear, I just wish there was something else. Some drama, some suspense.
Almost all the old pictures that ever stuck with me had something going on. The dwarves looking at the magic mouth in the old player's handbook is a perfect example of what I am talking about. They made me to wish I was playing in the campaign that I assumed (as a kid) inspired them.
Even something peering around the tunnel behind them would help (and could still be added in). Anyway I like the artist, will definitely be supporting this product and buying it but that's my feedback even if you don't want it.I find it amazing that this one image, which is a single small piece out of many that'll be included in an upcoming Dwimmermount product, continues to generate such comment. The fact is that this illustration looks the way it does because I asked Mark to draw it this way. It's meant to be both a call-back to the art of the past and a subtle indictment to the art of the present, where all the women are young and beautiful and all the warriors wear spiky armor with lots of buckles and no helmets.
Like or don't like, I don't care, but please don't criticize Mark either for his artistic ability or the lack of "drama" in the piece. He drew the illo the way I wanted it drawn, so any criticism of it should be directed at me, not him -- and you already know my feelings on the piece.
Seriously, guys, this is one illustration where I decided to have some fun by playing with the past and poking fun at the present and everyone goes ballistic over it. The mind boggles.As to youth... well, I think there's a logical basis for it. Adventuring is strenuous activity and above a certain age one's body may find it difficult to keep up. Same reason you don't see a lot of people in their 60s decide to start climbing rocks or spelunking or stuff.
The armor on the fighter I like more than I initially did, but I still feel it looks... plain. Wear and tear from being used, etchings on the greaves and gauntlets, a fantasy creature on the tabard instead of just a lion... something like that would help it, in my opinion, to stand out.
Shit, I'd love to see a knight with a Displacer Beast on his heraldry, that screams flavor to me. Perhaps his ancestor was quite brilliant at dodging death blows.