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IC versus OOC (Storyline spontaneity vs objectivity)
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:34 am
Post subject: IC versus OOC (Storyline spontaneity vs objectivity)
Before i start quoting all the rants about *InCharacter* versus *outofcharacter*, i'd like to point you to a nice site dedicated to RolePlay in JumpGate:
The transition between IC and OOC seems to flip cause and effect. OOC its "I have this level, therefore I can cast X spells". IC its "I can cast X spells in a day, therefore in comparison to my peers I have Y level".
now then
JaGar wrote:
Another thing that irks me is when I see (on the role play board) posts like this
Omega, How about something like this?
Karash becomes fleet admiral. He would be in charge of organizing the fleet to defend against an invasion. He is also responsible for arranging the training of any and all Octavian pilots in combat vs Sols and Quants.
Omega becomes head of Internal Security and is 2nd in command of the fleet (in case Karash isn't on-line when an invasion occurs). Omega is responsible for tracking down, and eliminating, pilots with Oct bounties. Also point of contact for Status of Force agreements.
Someone else (don't know who .. maybe Nohbody) is in charge of ensuring stations stay stocked and organizing FMs.
Each of these "wings" can establish a well rounded chain of command in case the leader isn't on-line. For SOF agreements, if it makes it past the "cabinet" level positions, requires a majority vote of member squads.
To declare war on another squad or faction, once it makes it past the "cabinet", would require 2/3 of member squads to approve it before the declaration is official.
This is a VERY rough draft of what I have in mind. As you can see, there is no overall leader. That's the Emperor's job, and no one here is trying to take it from him.
Other particulars would be hammered out over the negotiating table.
Not only is the above OOC because it is on ND RP Forum and the writer is speaking as himself (OOC) and not his character (IC) but if this plan were accepted by Karash, it would be useless and not fun because everyone who read the post would know the outcome.
This is like kids playing cops and robbers, 1 kid says you be the cop i'll be the robber and we can use dads shed as the prison and you can lock me up and I'll escape and shoot you.
Ok thats a bit over the top, but you kinda get the idea
The way RP is supposed to work in JG is like this........
This is what I am and what I do and you have to deal with it.
Very few players actually RP, most are out there doing mission, running cargo etc and don't give RP a second thought. Some try RPing but get stuck when the game changes and have to drastically butcher or change their story to fit their new path.
Roleplaying is an art, one which you cannot just fall into and takes a lot of planning and cooperation to get the desired result. This recent and well thought out RP by OEC is a good example of what JG is truly about and I can assure you, it took atleast 2 months to plan and coordinate.
I made a plea (OOC) that OEC stand down from their RP until the current FM is completed and Octavius has the s5 pp in its hands, but after a good nights sleep, I thought why should they ? They are playing the game the way they want and we have to deal with it! They are not breaking any rules and are playing along within the description given to the Octavian people. I also said the timing was wrong, but I am wrong!
What better time to force a coup and sieze the throne than when newly discoverd technology has been put into prodution that would improve the firering power and handling of Octavian craft ? If OEC succeeds before manufacturing is complete, then when the s5 pp finally rolls of the factory floor it would make their position all the more strong. The task of the Confederation is stop OEC before production is complete or face annihilation.
Game signature excluded because this post is IC (work it out :smile:
[ I had to remove my sig from my profile to do that]
JoeStraz wrote:
Why was my post OOC? Where was I talking about myself OOC? I laid out an outline of what a new alliance would be like. It was an attempt by my character to get both sides to the negotiating table. What's wrong with that??
Also, my calls for a cease fire during the FM are also IC. Again, what's wrong with that? OOC: I could care less if OEC stands down or not. I, and my squad, will be running the FM civvy anyway, so I know they aren't in any danger. IC: I see this as a perfect "excuse" to put down arms and try to hammer out an agreement. Who wouldn't try to cease an opportunity like that??
JaGar wrote:
Not you talking about yourself Joe. You talking about the game as yourself and not your character. See how confusing it can be ?
If as you claim it is your character talking then you are indeed IC however I can't see your character selling out the confederation by offerring Karash an Admiraly within the fleet therefore I took it as OOC.
BTW Joe & Nosmo, I wasn't getting at you personally, there are several posts from which I could have chosen but yours was the least confusing.
EXACTLY! chatting about near traitorous activities under a moniker of *IC* gets you a big fat black mark on your reputation.
It's rather simple. keep anything involving OOC comments about "Storyline Posts/Roleplaying Events" that might compromise your character's integrity to private messaging. (ie. most everything involved in manufacturing a nonspontaneous plotline; Otherwise, prepared to be labelled "n00b")
Oh, BTW, this does not mean that anything you say is perceived as *IC* (though i'm sure members of Gargamel/Nazgul will take exception to that comment)
JoeStraz wrote:
It wasnt traitorous. I'm no longer in the Confed. I left so I could be 100% impartial. Karash being fleet admiral made sense since he has the most combat knowledge. A confed member would be 2nd in command of the fleet, but in charge of internal security. Heck, we could even work up something where they swap positions once a month.
What I posted was an outline of what could be .. nothing more. Omega asked what I had in mind, and I threw out a rough draft of something. That's it.
I'm (my character) is still going under the assumption that Karash still has the empire at heart. He just spoke with his Octavian temper. Heck, when I heard about the Phoon size 4 PP, I almost joined him!!!
Personally, I don't see anything I did as selling out anyone. There is comprimise in negotiations .. give and take. All of those need to be hammered out, and I didn't even scratch the surface in that message.
BTW -- I didn't take anything personal. I don't mind constructive criticism :smile:
yes, but reading your comments in CONTEXT that you'd left just to say something "objective" just sounds like partisan politics to me. (i doubt Karash wants ANYTHING to do with OctConfed, so your "compromise" isn't. What you're actually doing is weakening the *IC* positions of BOTH SIDES; Ergo sum traitorous to OCTAVIA)
BTW, saying you're an "objective and impartial" negotiator is moot...There has to be negotiations planned by both parties before you slap up compromise deals. You're selling out BOTH sides, and looking mighty traitorous to OCTAVIAN interests as a whole.
JOSSH biblio on Octavia
Octavius is known for its commonly mercenary attitudes, where blood is often thinner than water.
Anyone remember the old GDW Traveller RPG? (i'm thinking of the Vargr, specifically the mercenary culture)
Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:49 am; edited 5 times in total
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:56 pm
Post subject:
And here's
's take on RPing
What is RP? Is RP discussing and planning events, talking to your enemies and deciding on an RP war? Is RP speaking in elizabethian english on UO? Is RP publishing regular reports about your activities, and giving a story to other people? Nope.
Roleplaying is very simple, playing a role that is separate from who you are in the real world. It doesn't mean that your little character has the right to be whatever you want it to be, your character has the right to be whatever he can make of himself in the world he's living in. It doesn't mean that you have any kind of control. Too many supposed RP'ers seem to rely on having control of the universe around them to say what they want it to do, instead of simply living in that universe. Thats NOT roleplaying, thats writing a story, and acting it out.
In short, roleplaying isnt about the language you use, its not about who you talk to about it, its about existing in the game world as your character. Not having the game world exist to make your character be whatever you want it to be.
Too many people want their characters to be some kind of great and wonderful hero, or a vicious pirate hated by all. You simply can't say that your character is a great hero and expect it to have any bearing on anything. Your character has to EARN that title.
Ok, time to shut the hell up=)
Majorfreak, the point to that post is, that you cant expect the universe and other people to behave the way you see fit. You're playing a character who's only effect on the world is what that character can do. I am basicly bitching about people who complain when someone breaks thier role in the universe. (Ie a guy whos proclaimed himself a great pirate hunter, complaining that the pirates keep killing him for no reason)
Rollio wasnt a bad guy because he posted on the board or his squad page that he was a nasty pirate. He was a bad guy because he REALLY DID kill people.
I'm bitching about self-proclaimed RPers who are really just being storywriters and actors. PvP and RPing go hand in hand, especially in this game. Not saying you need to do both, but it is a natural combonation.
Your character isnt who you say it is, its who you make it into.
As far as im concerned, non-pvpers should realize that in this game they may be forced to deal with it, although through a few simple steps they can avoid virtually all PvP.
Non-pvpers should never:
1. Fly honor guard
2. Get a bounty
3. Enter unregulated space(If you're not willing to take the risk, pay someone else to)
4. The most forgotten one, Don't talk shit to people, piss someone off enough and they might just kill you for it.
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:16 pm
Post subject:
ooooooo...and i found this archived thread:
Meta: Fanfic and Roleplaying
(It revolves around the controversy over our first betatest event run by
(and hijacked by
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:06 pm
Post subject:
ND RP forum thread
Looks like
went to town with his insights...
OOC about RP
First, I'm sorry I have to make this post.
I come from a long history of RPs, mainly paper, some plastic, and I have often been the GM. From this experience, let me say that there is nothing more annoying than the player who thinks he's the GM. You get this alot with first time gamers, and I think we've had a case here recently.
Here's some RULES for everyone to make sure things go smoothly:
Rule #1 in any RPG, paper or Online: The GM is GOD. (in jumpgate's particular case GOD is the Devs and Themis because they literally control the universe) The GM's job is to control the environment and the NPCs.
Rule #2: You can only influence the universe in the ways that your character can influence the universe. You have 0 control over the NPCs, etc.
If either of these rules is violated, the result is bullshit. Allow me to take some examples-
Tesrend's Embargo-
First, everything I saw was limited to actual players affecting the universe in ways that their characters could actually affect the universe. I don't recall Tesrend claiming that the Quantar Speaker appointed him to enact this embargo (which, unless a GM had used an appropriate account, would have been bullshit). The squads making up the Free Trade Coalition grouped up and called themselves the FTC. They did not make claims that an NPC had brought them together, financed them, etc. If they had, it would have been bullshit. Furthermore, GOD gave validity to this RP, as can be seen on JOSSH. The end result - Good player made storyline.
Milkman's diplomatic mission-
While I find the whole GrimFalcon part a little iffy, apparently Milkman sat in Hyperial station until a GM got online as a dockworker or whatever and talked to him. If those Quotes actually came from a GM running an NPC, and not some other pilot pretending to be an NPC, then it's good RP. If they did come from another pilot pretending to be an NPC or worse yet, if Milkman made those quotes up himself, then it goes in the bullshit pile.
OEC and Aristo -
Hmm tough call. Knowing OEC they probably actually flew down to Hyperial and sold the engines. They probably spewed a bunch of stuff on f3 too. I doubt however, that a GM used an NPC at said 'event' or at any time communicated as an NPC on behalf of Aristo Conglomerate. So while it pains me, I'd have to put this one in the bullshit pile, but it's extremely high quality bullshit, and had they bothered to ask or work with Moll on it, it might not have been bullshit.
Can you stretch the rules?
Sometimes. I think a good example would be the ONP/Orion Faction disk thing. That TRI guy they were supposedly in contact with was probably being 'played' by one of them, and not an actual GM. The important part here is that their storyline affected only them, and so it didn't matter if the TRI guy was being 'played' by them. So even if it was bullshit to the rest of us, it doesn't matter becuase it didn't affect us. Furthermore, the GMs picked this one up and ran with it, so it officially happened, and isn't bullshit at all.
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2002 9:28 am
Post subject:
MuffyTheTrollSlayer was in fine form dealing with yet another Whine And Cheese festival from SpaceDrake.
jeezuz. might as well go on a school trip. lol. pffft.
look, it's easy to explain:
SAS soldier wrote:
proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance
This includes GM's TESTING special tools before hand on a test pilot server that was already available...Not having the darned tools work as "promised" is hilarious, as well as pathetic. It's not anyone's fault that the tools didn't work...holy crap! I'm sure the GM's felt really sorry that they assumed the teleport stuff would work.
i'm not going to bother quoting the RP FAQ, cause you've already stated how at fault the GM's were, and your pathetic whining about how the shit hit the fan in no way puts any smear on your already tarnished reputation
Yeah, right! pffft. please explain to my how my pride in your squad's efforts against adversity and GM tool failures turned to disgust at your shameless display of finger pointing.
The fact the special tools you were promised (that the RP FAQ clearly states you shouldn't have been promised) didn't work as planned should have in no way detracted from your valiant efforts...
The fact that CaptCrunch failed to communicate to his escorts querying him repeatedly...
The fact that you "mistakenly" launched with HG tags on (uh yeah, right, and i suppose you forgot you can't change them at Hyp?)...
Plus the fact Dolus Malus managed to gank you and your delegate.
(all except you whining cause you weren't given a freakin "WINGAME" button)
Fortunately, most of us are overjoyed that /home was used at Hyperial, and that the HSS means that Hyperial has the beginnings of an active faction later than sooner...meaning your whine and cheese festival will be forgotten rather quickly (too bad. You could have gained honor instead of a big "Wynar" tag)
Last edited by MajorFreak on Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:18 am
Post subject:
ND plot forum thread
Agramor wrote:
Very interesting question, really. In the days of text-only games, a.k.a. MUSH et al, roleplay was the major force behind daily gaming. A convention was used then, much like it's been outlined here, that you posted or "posed" an action that had potential, then those around had a chance to pose a potentially opposing or supporting action. Reasonable RP would be resolved by all present.
Bad RP actions had effect as opposed to potential. These posts or poses were called "powerplays". In most cases, a powerplay was ignored, or called upon by all present in an OOC manner. The game itself didn't have a way to resolve RP issues unless the GM's were extremely active- the consequences of powerplaying were most usually being shunned by all around you. AKA /ignore.
Example of a powerplay: "I can't take this anymore!" I reach out and grab your throat and squeeze until you suffocate.
Same example as a potential: My eyes open wide, and my face contorts into a mask of anger. With animalistic fury I launch myself at you, hands outstretched and fingers reaching for your throat- "I can't take this ANYMORE!"
The examples here in JG given above are good. Here we have the ability to mix RP with actual game mechanics, provided you're careful about plot, introduce only believable factors (i.e: no indestructible robot troops), and are careful not to interfere via non-consentual RP (i.e.: Pilot Agramor was sleeping in his quarters, and I assasinated him)
Calash wrote:
The troops are for effect more than actual combat. By saying that you will be delivering 1000 troops, and following it up by crerating a convoy to escort a hg tow to the station you open up the possability for counter-roleplaying and conflict. Moll would have the final word on if these troops had any effect since they are NPC and by basic RP law we can not directly control there actions.
In reality there should be no in-station fighting that does not involve a GM to regulate the RP of it. Very few of us can be trusted not to exceed the limits of possability when given the ability to create any situation (An example is your IC, though very funny :) ).
but, to turn your example into reality, make it something like this.
Then, get 2-3 tows togenter and lots of escorts, all HG, and inbetween the times listed try and land your troops. Carry 500 of something semi-heavy to simulate the troop containers. If you land it will be the GM decision as to what type of damage the troops would cause before being repeled.
GM_Moll (edited for clarity) wrote:
OK, all teasing aside, I really wanted to comment that Agramor and Calash have really nailed it in terms of how I tend to work with things.
I really think in-station fighting is really too hard to pull off. For believability purposes do all your fighting right outside, and make the point to get *in* the station.
Will you ever be able to destroy a station from the inside? No.
Will you be able to damage it extensively? Oh sure. Ask Hyperial about all the damage pilots were asked to clean up. ;)
Will you ever be able to destroy a station from the outside? I don't know.
Can you destroy a station now? Yes and no. Technically, anything's possible. Feasible is another issue.
I'd love to see a lot more attempts of diplomacy and interaction rather than:
"I bring 100 troops"
"Oh yeah? Well I BRING 500 troops!"
"Did I say 100? I meant 1000 troops!" etc.
.. gonna get crowded in these stations at that rate, and keep in mind, this isn't a planet. This is space. You really have some limitation of how many troops you can fit on a station, and TRI would have available. (Example in action: How many enforcers do you ever see at a time? 3-4? Each of those ships have 1 person, and TRI considers that sufficient.) Unless you're able to shuttle pilots up from the nearest planet, it is generally a bad idea to start deploying more troops than you can reasonably account for.
You can say you're deploying all you like. You can say whatever you like. TRI and TRINN can acknowledge you've said it. But when it comes down to it, if you can't back up your numbers somehow (1 person per 50 troopers, for example), what are you doing? Deploying a pack of bunny rabbits, for all practical purposes.
Otherwise TRI needs to really start accounting for all these extra people, enroll them in TRI and give their hard workers a raise... ;) (j/k)
All my opinion of course. Everyone's welcome to RP however they wish here. Credible RP is important, and something I talked about in the Fiction FAQ (should I break those up into separate posts?)
Try not do anything which is not fictionally plausible
The key here is don't over-exaggerate your place in the galaxy. You're all pilots, okay? You're all important to TRI's efforts.
aid, it's still a wide range of possibility....
Uhm...i do believe they've forgotten a really important point: these marines that were transported via jumpgates HAD to have been given the genetic modifications...you've got to think about the fanaticism of these folk to be willing to give up their reproductive ability...(can't take that lightly)
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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:22 am
Post subject:
ND general forum thread
RazorsKiss wrote:
In my experience, consistency goes a LONG way toward having an easily recognizable character. If you want to RP a bad guy - always be a bad guy. If you don't, the whole suspension of disbelief goes away, and you're left with the impression - "so if he's really a bad guy... why was he helping so and so, or doing such and such". I know it's just a game, but the more consistent your character is, the better you will be recognized - for your character. Then you can separate the personal you and your in-game persona - as long as the public you is always more or less the same.
I've been New Dawn since day one on the server. Got in right as stress test was about to start. I've never been anything BUT a flux hunter - I've had about a year to work on that persona, that "party line" that I adopt. If I am working on a faction mission - it's because it helps me get a better ship to hunt flux with, or better weapons, (ie: nukes), or to promote unity vs the Conflux. Etc etc amen. Sure, I slip ooc every so often. It's fun goofin around late and night and talking about goofy stuff.
But when it's time to role play, or I'm out just flying, I try to be what our roleplay says we should be. Doesn't always work, but I do my best.
I'm hunting flux - it's our "mission" - our "charter"
Cargo? - I need money to fund our activites toward that goal.
Artyhunting? - I'm upgrading my ship to make it a more effective weapon...
Non factional
Non - PvP (our stance is that it's counter productive to the work of "Reconstruction" - so we only fight if fired upon, and sometimes not even then.)
TRI - TRI gives the orders to fight the Flux, we do it. Without a TRI, the war would not go as well - it would divide our forces and weaken us.
Factions: We give up almost all of our loyalty to the faction of birth - we fight flux. Any other war is counter-productive, most "factional issues" are beneath our radar.
Do I believe all that? Who cares? It's the RP we do, and it's fun to have a unique stance, and be a unique squad with a RP different from the rest of the server. It gives us an "identity" - when you think of New Dawn, I bet most of you could say exactly what we stand for.
We try not to be too strident. Though I am rather opinionated, so I guess I'm the loudmouth of the bunch. I also like to write, so I end up here quite a bit giving "our take" on an issue. It's all part of the "Squad roleplay" scene.
Karash, Rostam, DrKronic, {ND}Falcon, Aubrey, Tyke,
(I don't care what anyone says, because I don't care about the issues themselves =) - I saw him the very first day he started, and debated the merits/demerits of ND's non-factional stance, and he has not changed his tune on any issue I've seen on these boards one iota - that deserves a pat on the back, no matter where he stands on whatever issue. He doesn't deviate a bit)
Russian, Hurricane, MadCat, BlkAngel, Tesrend - those guys are who make the server go round. Roleplay for the fun of "making a stand" on whatever issue they care about, then defending it by actions in game, and defining both their own, and their squad's beliefs and behavior. It's awesome to read the REAL player driven storyline. For PvPers, those guys ARE the storyline. I doubt there will be a huge storyline for you, ever, because the ones you make up are so much better.
Sure, there are the "3 year storyline" developments, the Amananthii, the Hyperials/Quant jihad, "Can we trust TRI?", the special secondary storylines, like the Katdinal story, but the ones that are important are the ones we weave into it. Where would the "assimilation" and Amananthii story aspects be without GrimFalcon and his prophecies? What would Octavia be without OEC, ION, or, omg... UZI?? What would you have as a "rebel" group if the KH crew and "The Gang" weren't around? Who would be the "bad guy" if Rollio weren't around? Say what you want about Rollio - he's the best pure "evil" guy in the game. Where would Pirates be without TDP? Quantar without Rostam, Rix, Tes? Who would be the true traders if not for UMEC and MA/MACK's examples? I miss Solrain Guard already. Where would the flux storyline be at on this server - like the EU server where all they can think to do is say "let's see if we can talk to the cute lil fellers!" BAH! We always need a New Dawn =) Besides, EP2 is our wet dream come true =) You won't be seeing much of us unless you come into flux space at that point I think =)
Anyway, I guess my point is this: The story is there for you to BUILD ON. That's not all there is. Sure, there's limitations to what you can do by yourselves, but the closer you can come to guessing where the story is headed, and place yourselves in a position to take advantage of it and incorporate yourselves into it, the more fun roleplay will be. We got lucky and stumbled on the chance of a lifetime for our squad. TDP is drooling at the thought of real pirate gear. I suspect you'll see an en masse return of TDP to it's "feared and evil bastich" status once EP2 comes around. Find a cool niche in the story, and stay there. See what you can make out of it. It may turn out bigger than you realize.
the hyperlink to this post is
Last edited by MajorFreak on Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:28 am
Post subject:
I play jumpgate as a means of entertainment. I am who I am..._Primo_ is used on all games I play. Its simply a handle not a persona. I play online games for 2 reasons: 1-single player games are too predictible. I have never met an AI that was worth a flip. They offer little in the way of challenge. They don't talk to you, tell jokes, or anything remotly engaging. When is the last time you had an engaging conversation with a conflux member? 2-Real live players are everything that AI's are not. They are unpredictible, 10 times more challenging to guess thier next move, and well....they will interact with you in other way besides shooting at you. I have and continue to meet facinating players/people online. Games are much much much more fun when you have a group of people with common interest than just sitting looking at a screen for hours on end by yourself. Granted some players get under my skin but....thats not much different from real life is it now? Big difference....gaming allows me to meet folks from different cultures that I would otherwise never get to meet.
As for roleplay if thats your bag...go for it. Its just not mine. I have enough trouble keeping up with all the political posturing in this game as it is without having to figure out how a rp would fit into it.
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Test Pilot
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:13 am
Post subject: I dont "roleplay".
I think Primo might be right. I was just having the same thought. I am not a roleplayer in the hardcore PnP DnD sense of the word. Characters I play in games tend to act the way I would act in that situation - or at least how I would like to act if I was ever faced with that dituation. My characters in RPGs are kinda like idealized versions of myself :)
Well - ok - in games like NWN I always take female characters but thats just because I find them more pleasing to look at. really.
But - the more a game forces me to interact with other people - the more I feel its important the character I project be more like me.
There is something backwards. In a PnP session you are sitting there with the other people. Playing a role is a fun worthwile thing to do as you already know the other people and you can appreciate how their characters deviate from the RL persona.
For internet games I - where you dont know the people youre playing with - too much roleplay I think is possibly bad - because it turns the other characters into AI. It becomes a farce. Why bother to play a game involving other people if you can never actually meet them, you can just navigate your character though interactions with their characters - where the characters personalities are arbitrally chosen? It is about as meaningful at that point as holding a conversation with the conflux - just a bit more unpredictable.
So me - I dont roleplay. And people who do - "roleplay" in mmorpg's - I shall just have to conclude are idiots and jerks because I'm never going to actually meet them in any meaningful way.
I need to work on these thoughts a bit longer I think - but thats the core of the idea so far.
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:21 am
Post subject:
There is no such thing as a MMORPG
Really. Roleplay happens in a specific enviroment by people who generally know each other. That is, roleplayers generally interact on both OOC and IC levels, and when its happening - its obvious by the context which is which.
Whith online games - the social cues present with real people are lacking so (a) its all but impossible to tell the difference between IC and OOC without clumsy pre-fixing, and (b) probably a very small % of players are actually competent roleplayers that partake in LARPs or PnP RPGs.
Normal roleplay does not happen in a persistent world as, well - most PnP games come with facy titles like "1 thousand interesting ways to die". PnP RP is very short term.
With a persistent world, where significatn effort goes into levelling a "character" - people become more attached to their characters and the detachment necessary for good "roleplay" goes out the window.
Plus id argue that roleplaying - actual detached roleplaying - is a waste of time in MMORPGs because you ply aMM games because of the social aspect of interacting with other people. If there is no strong OOC interfaction, and all interaction is IC, then it actually doesnt matter than other humans are involved - because you never meet them, or get any hint as to their real personality whatsoever.
I find it more rewarding to view Jumpgate as a game played by people, with (or against) other people. Anyone who behaved like an idiot is - for all intents and purposes - an idiot in real life. Roleplay doesnt come into it - if you meet baadf00d in game - be sure that you are meeting me - not some character ive decided to toy with for a while.
On Spoilers
As an extension to the above - if this was a true role play enviroment, spoilers would be all but impossible. Roleplaying is by definition a duality - there is the information *you* (the role player) knows - there is the information the character you are playing knows. *you* know that your character has 9/20 hitpoints, 1327 XP and a 1d4 barefist attack. Your character knows theyre bleeding and feeling rather bruised, has partaken in a small number of fights, and its going to take a while to pummel the opponent into submission.
In PnP RPGs players have access to the Players Handbook (or equilavent). They know the stats of weapons their character has never seen, the abilities of devices their character has never encountered, and what abilities their character is going to gain on level up. So it is with the stats and abilities of the POS.
A spoiler is when elements of how the storyline is going to go are revealed - and MG control the EU storyline and ND dont, so it is impossible for ND to emit spoilter materials - strictly speaking.
Last edited by MajorFreak on Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:31 am
Post subject:
Xindaan goes off about stuff
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:23 pm
Post subject:
Kami wrote:
There is no RP in JG. You need consistency for that, if not from the GMs, then the players (a pipe dream).
Consistency = "without contradiction" (which usually falls flat because alot of the more tumultous player events are conducted by pilots who switch squad/pilot names like it's going out of style.)
Contrasted Words incoherence, incongruity; impropriety, inappropriateness, unsuitability
Also of note is the very "quake in space" attitude that prevents attempts at putting the 'Honour' in "HG"
Not to mention the evil nature of CASUAL civripping attributed to "anti-TRI/faction terrorism" (ie.
was the prime example of how to do this consistently) Consistency from
was what made him respectable...hell, even i respected that in him even though i thought he was a crybaby who didn't say much for fear of being laffed out of the game for being a self-absorbed twat.
Too bad HONOURABLE squad RulesOfEngagement, RESPECTABLE bounty hunting and DECENT pirating actions are so curtailed by the inability to "carry" a perm.bounty (ie. negPR) and we're left with less and less people willing to put the effort into consistency when the very rules coded into the game automatically make your RP fly in the very face of reason.
("incharacter actions must translate to incharacter consequences")
BaadF00d wrote:
Being consistent with your roleplay IS being willing to accept the responsibilities. Its the people who jump roles, and who do OOC things (like swap credits from a trader to a civ ripper - and post this fact on the boards demanding that the accounts be treated seperately) who are inconsistent - inconsistent to avoid the consequnces of their previous actions - so they simply invent new RP for themselves.
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Test Pilot
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:41 pm
Post subject:
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Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 27
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:33 am
Post subject:
I'll give you an example - squik.
He shot at us, broke NAPs, lied, cheated ,etc etc etc.
Until we got mad at him.
He took one bounty on us through the entire "conflict" (if you can call a New Dawn vs anyone a conflict)
We took over 50. He is one stubborn bastard. He
would not
give us a NAP. Period.
I went to -100 PR on him - not once, but twice. He died over 50 times in one week.
As a side note: This very reason is why we've cultivated our NAPs so assiduously, and so single-mindedly.
I was not fired at ONCE - I've carried this bounty almost two months, and not a shot fired at me by any single other person on the entire server. I had an
bounty for over two weeks. I
have a bounty. But due to good diplomatics, good reputation, and a good public airing of why, how, and when I did it, noone from New Dawn was shot at a single time, period.
The bounty system is phucked. I didn't bother working it off, because he was so unreliable I was likely to have to do it again. Now he's joined OSP, and has plenty of people shooting at him (plus we have a NAP with OSP). I'll take my ICC. I'm a big boy, and I know how it works. I may not like it, but I know how it works, and I was justified to do it. But I don't know many others that could have pulled that feat off.
In fact, I carried a -100 sol bounty as well from blowing away a chauvanistic jerkoff that thought it was cool to mouth off to my g/f and proposition her in :help (rather lewdly, actually). He seemed utterly surprised I would kill him civ. Sucks for him.
Just an anecdote for how we use our RP, and why we do what we do - it's not because we're carebears, though we get accused of it for not fighting. It's not that we think fighting is "bad" - it's that no other squad has made killing flux their central RP to the degree we have. When the tags system went in was when we quit PvPing. It lost it's charm. Flux had just been added, and noone were "dedicated fluxhunters", so {ND}Falcon took it up.
The simple fact is that we don't want to be shot at in unreg, which is where the flux are. If we do, we have some of the best shots in the game. All we do every day is shoot at stuff... think we can't fight? heh heh heh... We have an IC reasoning behind everything we do. We don't fight pilots because it wastes manpower we could be using to fight flux. If someone keeps us from that goal, we deal with it as ruthlessly and quickly as possible, so we can get back to business.
If they switch civ after shooting us? Screw TRI, and their bounty rules. They will ride the pod until they give up - once you hit -100 PR, it no longer matters, so just split the kills up among 1-2 pilots. The NAPs are the buffer that keeps us free to police ourselves - if someone shoots at us, noone will be standing in between us and that pilot. They are completely open season.
If you're a PvP squad, the NAPs get more complicated. For a non-PvP squad, public facade is everything, and reputation is your playground - or you get the feeding frenzy. The one downside to our super-NAP-network is that we're quite possibly the safest squad to fly in, bar none. How is that a problem? The powergamers/power-levelers are *constantly* lying to us, leveling up under our tags, then leaving for PvP. This taints our neutrality, reputation, and our NAps, sometimes. We are among the most "up-to-date" pilots in Jumpgate on the subject of second accts, and who is flying who else. We don't like it, because it's 1) Annoying, and 2) Time consuming. But it happens - and happens a lot. People impose on our friendship, on our trust, and our reputation constantly. JG politics is a minefield. lol.
Just a short vignette about bounties, In-character consequences and their effect when you're NAP'd to the hilt, like we are.
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:58 pm
Post subject:
example of how NOT to roleplay
Does it strike anyone else as surreal that someone has gone out of their way to grab all Displacers, effectively taking control of most artifact hunting, and the greatest ire that posters have here is for FRG's telling us that they know who did it?
Monopolies are bad for just about everyone. We should be thanking Isorg for threatening to expose those who would end the free trade of Displacers, and with them eventually artifacts in general. FRG could have simply kept this information for themselves and leveraged it to extort money from the perpetrators. They could have used their tracker to see the stripping coming and hoarded Displacers for themselves, telling no one and profiting later.
Instead they are out here in public battling those who prefer stripping in secret to taking responsibility for ones actions on the market. Were I Isorg, the vitriol of some posters in this thread would make me say to Hell with it, take my tracker home, and let the public realize how screwed they are when the arties dry up.
I salute FRG's defense of free trade of Displacers.
There is no margin for error, nor bluff, nor /ignore...and there's ALOT of *IC*/*OOC* reasons for =ESM= to completely ignore this "roleplay" (which was, unfortunately, what =FRG= decided was 1337 "roleplaying")
this isn't roleplay at all. i can't define it, but i'm sure if you read this thread you'll understand the gist of why this breaks *IC*/*OOC* boundaries
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:46 am
Post subject:
I just expect that if a squad bothers to post a policy, guidelines on how they are going to RP the game, that they should follow it. My mistake in thinking that a squad with a page titled Honor Guild would follow their posted Role Play. I won't make the same mistake with your squad.
Those that post a RP and do something else, I don't work with at all.
Notice how
completely ignores the fact this statement was made in an *OOC* context with *OOC* terminology? (Not to mention it condones the sort of 'Enron' "regulatory" measures that covertly said, "say what you will, just don't get caught")
Falling into the fallacy that if one's stated RP turns out to be false, it isn't called 'deception' or 'violating policy' in an *IC* sense, but implied that one is *OOC* incompetent about how to roleplay. (ie. If you don't say you're going to do this, then yer a lousy RPer)
Thumper's Mom wrote:
If yer not gonna say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
Personally, i've always found
to be a stuck up prig even back when he whined and bitched about getting civripped while doing logistic duty for =Phoenix= as though HIS load of <insert uninsured gear> somehow elevated a squad war gank into "OMG TOS VIOLATION! GRIEFER GRIEFER!"
Ventura & Gander
are excellent examples that Carebears assume they know how to "roleplay" just because their pilot's behavior is mostly engaging in 'non-pvp' activities. Not only that they get this sense of entitlement about lording 'it' over the Peasants.
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Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:10 pm
Post subject:
This is the third consecutive post on "The Displacer Fiasco".
Just because a 3rd party program CAN access any and all info coming from NetDevil's server, does not mean this *OOC* access and permission (from ND/TRI/MG) to use a specific proggie translates directly to *IC* in a 'Carte Blanche' sense. (both access to TRI info and authority to speak for TRI)
the sad thing is, GM_Moll and her MG counterpart have nothing explicitly stating this rule...I assumed they had. which is a pity. The only thing GM_Moll has on this subject is
, along with FRG's "authorization" statement
Unless TG was actually stupid enough to explicity have said OOC authority/access = IC authority/access. Personally, i think
merely gave permission to use the proggie in a strickly OOC sense, and are just keeping mum. period
Not to mention FRG&ESM have obviously avoided any contact with TRI/TG in both an IC and OOC sense respectively. Which is a bloody shame and proof positive that noone trusts our 'CommunityServiceProviders' to do anything but play tiddlywinks with their own incestuous NDA storyline which they feed to us like it's some kind of privilege. (are they afraid we'll see through their plotholes and "suspense" like a badly written Harlequin Romance?)
personally, i don't know why they think their storyline is so sacrosanct (EU and US server differences aside) that they need to keep it under NDA like soap opera producers keep the next "shocker" episode under wraps
Nothing can be a $#^^$@#% plot twist if we don't know what's to bloody TWIST in the first place, especially when spontaneous player events like this "displacer fiasco" fail to register as news worthy on a comparative level to vapid storylines like the "katdinal intrigue" articles (if you can FIND them; it's supposed to be a "privilege" to make the effort to do so) -- all this proves there's a disconnect between player run event organizers and TG at a level both take for granted.
Information should be available that we recognize a plot twist when it happens instead of a, "zzz *snort* hmm? storyline? EP2 here yet? hmph. zzzz"
Official NPCs and news on JOSSH that reflects the official storyline should give the same weight and context to player run events of note instead of seemingly waiting for that one perfect RP event that poses no risk to TG/MG/ND (but invariably blows the hell up in their faces)
That is what gives this thread it's Raison d'entre
There's another point i'd like to make. That being the clumsy way 'CommunityServiceProviders' state their opinions. (just look at the OV/emperor "-100pr" threat in a purely abstract sense stripped of it's other meanings)...With such lax attitude between *IC* and *OOC* roleplaying terminology and mode of speaking, cannot one imagine that these same companies we trust to run our storylines are actually powergamers themselves?
I believe both TG and MG so misunderstand *IC* versus *OOC* and the dynamic interaction BETWEEN the two as to give the impression they don't know if they're coming or going.
This becomes all the more painful when OOC and IC statements seem to be translated directly and understood to mean the same thing by a rather terrified community.
(it's sort of like catching a child who's just found out where daddy's gun is kept)
i trust ND/TG/MG as far as i can throw them. From the evidence of the past, present, and future plans i'd say everyone else is a fool if they do trust them
*shrug* I trust the judgement of numerous players and squads though...I trust that i've judged the opinions of other less reliable players and squads as well as TG/ND/MG. It is not hopeless to me -- i see a vibrant community that fosters initiative on the basis that the 'CommunityServiceProviders' can't even hope to screw things up badly enough because they can't even get two steps before tripping.
Unfortunately, that child doesn't seem to want to part with that fully loaded and fully automatic Glock, and there are worse things to harm than mere "storyline"
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:24 am
Post subject:
Perfect example of someone unclear on the concept
(while actually believing they're hip and "with it")
yes, i pick on Nazgul simply because they ARE the perfect example of what NetDevil has done wrong to attract lowlifes like this into our community that really wishes ND would get their ass in gear and stop perpetuating the "CIVigilante/HGanker" culture
That whole thread (all 225+ replies) is an example of what happens when one relies more on spindoctored *OOC* insults than researched *IC* ripostes...a perfect example because i think the lot of them haven't a clue what IC/OOC means, especially when it comes to dealing with Nazgul's deliberate OTT trolling which they call "Roleplay"
notice how Nazgul flippantly uses wordplay to powergame themselves into positions of "authority"...it's that old lie about how "with great power cums great responsibility" (reminds me of people who don't give any respect but demand it in return)
that is, until you're their peer...riiiiiight
*sigh* hypocrites'R'Us
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Chief WO4
Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint
Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:37 am
Post subject:
*shrug* Any RP in a mmog is entirely selfish. why? Because it's always an attempt to broadcast one's own backstory. I think alot of people lose track of that motive and replace it with "for the good of the game/players/gms/blah" ('good intentions')
easier to play the 'martyr' if things don't go one's way
Of course, those without any backstory lean heavily on 'good intentions' - case in point being the 'blockade amananth' stock drama. You can usually tell the losers because they'll react OutOfCharacter to any well thought out InCharacter critique of their "roleplay" (of course, you can tell the trolls by their InCharacter reaction to OutOfCharacter critiques)
i'm postulating a theory that the line between fanboi and troll is very thin indeed - though that's a bit offtopic and probably belongs with the carebear/griefer dichotomy
Muffy wrote:
: you've got to put yourself into the shoes of your faction. Me, i'd wonder (a) is that "Official" going to further my faction's role in the world of TRI, or is this yet another powerplay by some bit-player who's only going to sour our relationship with TRI or it's subdivisions?
Basically, one has to accept that most people's take on "RP" boils down to high school politics of the most banal sort. Not to mention the oft used "storyarc" of mmog GMs that amounts to your average TV-episodic (here today, gone next week) that amounts to...well...spam
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If the heat is getting to you, head to Alaska….
Check out all the activities gathered onto the ASMP Alaska's calendar page.
Highlights include Hal Gage's "Alaska's Coastal Landscapes" workshop July 25-26, a lecture entitled "Pursing Your Passion in Photography" by Eddie Soloway on July 30th at 7 p.m. at the Anchorage Museum at Rasmuson Center (free and open to the public) and a workshop July 31 – August 2nd, sponsored by the Alaska Photographic Center.
The next week:
A great event is happening in August in Homer, Alaska on the spectacular Kachemak Bay.
Guest presenters are Keith Carter, Barry McWayne, Ted Orland and Amy Scott.
For 5 days, a group of individuals will live and breathe fresh air, fresh fish and PHOTOGRAPHY. I was invited to participate this year but regretfully had to decline due to prior commitments, and hope to make the trip sometime.
Headquarters: The Alaska Ridgetop Inn. Format: unique among the photo events I have been to in that the schedule allows for dialogue and print sharing, lectures and casual conversations (see Keith Carter's title "Gumbo Ya Ya" in the event schedule below). Sounds fantastic!
From the event webpage:
"Organizers are working on the final details of the Homer Photo Fest 2009 featuring citywide photography exhibitions, delectable seafood opening treats, portfolio reviews, workshops, lectures and round table discussions about… (what else) PHOTOGRAPHY!
Here's a snap shot of the Festival: The Homer Photo Fest will take place August 4th – 8th, 2009. Join us for five days of workshops, one on one portfolio reviews, public lectures by noted invited national artists and exhibitions by three award winning photographers. All this kicks off with an opening night gala, exhibitions throughout the week by three featured winners of the Homer Photo Fest Nationwide Portfolio Competition. If that doesn't get you to Homer then the food will. Each opening night reception will feature along with excellent art, the very best in Wild Alaskan Seafood and other culinary delights. The Homer Photo Fest ends with a seafood banquet dinner as a send-off to a very fun filled week of photography. Click on the EVENT link for a complete schedule.
As part of the Homer week of Photography, Homer Photo Fest sponsors a portfolio competition open to photographers nationwide. Photographers working in all photographic mediums and formats are welcome to submit a minimum of 15 (maximum of 20) photographs along with an artist statement about their body of work. Our four invited guest photographic arts professionals will judge the entries, select one "juror's choice" artist who will receive round trip airfare to Homer and a solo exhibition of their selected portfolio during the Homer Photo Fest. The juror's will also award two honorable mentions that will also receive solo exhibitions during the Homer Photo Fest. All selected artist will receive a $300 monetary award. Click on the PORTFOLIO COMPETITION link for rules and entry form.
Guest Artists
(serving as portfolio competition jurors, portfolio reviewers, and lecturers):
Keith Carter is an internationally recognized fine art photographer and professor at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas.
Barry McWayne is a fine art photographer living and working in Alaska and is Curator of Fine Arts Emeritus at the Univerisity Museum of the North in Fairbanks, Alaska.
Ted Orland is an educator, designer and a nationally recognized fine art photographer teaching at the University of California, Santa Cruz.
Amy Scott is the Curator of Visual Arts at the Autry National Center, Los Angeles, California.
Homer Photo Fest is a collaboration of the Bunnell Street Gallery, Homer Council on the Arts, Pratt Museum, Homer Photographic Center and the Kachemak Bay Campus-Kenai Peninsula College/UAA. Additional support generously provided by the Alaska State Council on the Art and Gage Photo Graphic."

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Princeton Reclaims Eisenberg Cup
Complete Results, Courtesy Row2k.com
PRINCETON, N.J. – Princeton's varsity eight has been posting very impressive times throughout the early part of the 2010 spring rowing season. Yale saw first hand how fast the Tigers are Saturday on Lake Carnegie. Princeton, ranked first in the EAWRC Coaches Poll, reclaimed the Eisenberg Cup by defeating the Bulldogs and Virginia. The Tigers finished in an impressive 6:23.5, four seconds faster than Virginia (6:27.4) and seven seconds faster than Yale (6:30.3).
The Bulldogs' best finish was second in the second varsity eight. Princeton was first in 6:45.6, while Yale crossed the line in 6:55.2, more than four seconds faster than third-place Virginia.
Virginia captured the varsity four race with a time of 7:34.4. Princeton (7:41.6) was second and the Bulldogs (7:47.2) placed third.
Virginia had the top two boats in the third varsity eight, while Yale was third. The Bulldogs finished second to Virginia in the second varsity four.
All three teams entered Saturday's races nationally ranked. Virginia was No. 1, Yale No. 4 and Princeton No. 6. The teams will likely see each other again at the NCAA Championships in late May. Yale and Princeton will face off again at the Eastern Sprints on May 16.
The Bulldogs return to the Gilder Boathouse next Saturday to race Radcliffe for the Case Cup.
Report filed by Tim Bennett, Yale Sports Publicity


text:
all necessary information to send me advertising
I was born in Tehran, Iran, just few days before the first "Persian Gulf War" began. I moved to Germany 1985 to where my father had already escaped (writer is a quite dangerous job in Iran). I lived in Cologne, Wuppertal, Niederrhein and – my favorite – the Ruhrgebiet.
I finished my Bachelor in "Applied Communication- and Media Science" at the University Duisburg-Essen. Since 2008 I try to get familiar with the hills of the Teutoburg Forest. Why I left my beloved Ruhrgebiet? Because I started to study Interdisciplinary Media Science in the maybe ugliest but at the same time most practical University, the University of Bielefeld. I'm involved at Hertz 87.9, the college radio for Bielefeld. I work as a freelance journalist and trainer.
Have also a look on my professional website.
I wrote in the last years few articles in different media and start to produce features for the radio. Here are some examples. Check out the references on my professional website as well:
Our University has a really cool radio station, Hertz 87.9. It's totally funny to work in a real radio station. I'm part of on of the teams of our daily show "Der Morgen". I produced some features for other shows, too. Just check the links above. Since 2010 I'm member of the project leading team and take care about organisational and as well as technical aspects of Hertz 87.9.
Of course, I was involved in some projects:
With some friends I took part at a competition by Nokia, the Push N900. We enhanced a skateboard with sensors and bluetooth and connect it with a game running on a Nokia N900. Just check out our Website for more details.
The "Autonomes Zentrum Mülheim" (autonomous center) is an old indoor horse riding arena, which was adapted to a self-organized culture-centre. There is a lot of space for different projects, parties, groups and concerts. In some of these groups I help or participate.
There are a lot of other activities in the AZ, but I was "just" involved in these.
I started to help a little bit to translate and write documentations for GNOME, a free desktop for Linux, *BSD and other Unix Systems. But unfortunately, I have so much work at the University, that I couldn't find free time to work for GNOME. Mostly I reported bugs and helped on the GNOME conference GUADEC, like in Kristiansand (2004), Vilanova i la Geltrú (2006) and Istanbul (2008).
The Independent Media Center NRW (short IMC NRW) was a network or group of people, who are interested and active in independent media work. The focus was on helping out at Indymedia Germany and reporting about social movement actions. But it also should be a network for any kind of independent media activity in Northrhine-Westfalia (a region in western Germany) and not limited to indymedia.org.
Since I bought a Nokia 770 I was involved a little bit in the Maemo Project with reporting bugs. In Meamo things change so fast, so I couldn't keep up all the time. Now the project transform to MeeGo, I'm curios what comes next.
Ubuntu Linux is an Linux Distribution, based on Debian. It use GNOME as default desktop enviroment and aims to provide a operating system, that everybody can use, independent from their language or computer skills or disabilities. I tested unreleased Versions of Ubuntu and wrote bug reports. Also I was a "member" of the Laptop Testing Team and gave feedback about Ubuntu on Acer Travelmate 223 and the last released Apple iBook G4 (12", 1.33GHz).
You can download my PGP Public Key. If you like, you can also check the Fingerprint, but maybe it's better to check it in real life.


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Anyone else attending the French Car Show 2013 being held at Castle Coombe at the end of July 2013?
More details can be found at:
French Car Show 2013
Forum rules
Please understand that the Frontera Owners Group or any organiser of events will not be held responsible for any loss, damage, accident or injury caused by attending an event. You are responsible for your passengers and for your own safety and should carry the necessary recovery and safety equipment. You agree to follow the rules of the Highway Code, Green Lane Code and club pay and play site rules whichever applies. For greenlane events; All events should adhere to the GLASS Code of Conduct, and please note that Rights Of Way often change and if a TRO (traffic regulation order) has been put in place by the local council you should not drive the lane. If you do not agree to the above you should refrain from taking part in the event.
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French Car Show 2013
Anyone else attending the French Car Show 2013 being held at Castle Coombe at the end of July 2013?
More details can be found at:
Kodiak Transglobe 2.0 SWB
Bricks are the knowledge you are taught,
the cement is the experience you gain that holds them together.
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text: Proactive Approach to Pests July 10, 2013 12:00 AM Tweet TAGS: Marketing, Overseas December 18, 2014 By Ellie Murphy Farm Journal Media Intern Email Using an effective pest management plan saves time, money, and energy in the field. Creating a strategy means looking at all of the clues together. Farm Journal's Field Agronomist Ken Ferrie says, "In the area of insect management, the goal is not to be caught off guard. Insects are somewhat predictable." Beating a pest problem is more difficult when the situation becomes an emergency. In Episode 5 of Corn College TV Season 3, Ferrie suggests using a reliable, proactive plan. (Click here to order Corn College TV Education Series on DVD.) Looking at traps and weather conditions throughout the season can help detect heavy flight and hatching patterns, but a good plan looks at how all of those clues are acting together. Ferrie says, "There are a number of different trapping sequences you can put into place. You can marry that up with weather conditions, and then marry that up with the susceptibility of the crop." Watch Corn College TV Episode 5 below to learn more about predicting the onset of insects and weeds. Click here to register for 2013 Corn College events this summer. Back to news


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text:
See the kid with the Fu Manchu mustache in the yellow? He ruined my night.
A few months ago, I butted into a friend's Twitter conversation. She and another friend (both live in Pittsburgh) were discussing heading up to Erie to see the Windsor Spitfires as they play the Otters on a Saturday in February. I interjected, saying I wanted to go, and so I bought the game tickets, reserved a rental car, and got a hotel room in Erie, Pennsylvania.
That Saturday arrived this past weekend. It was not only my first Windsor Spitfires game, but also my first junior hockey game.
I became a Windsor Spitfires fan about two years ago, in my first exposure to junior hockey: the 2009 Memorial Cup, broadcast on NHL Network. I think it was the Spitfires' color scheme that first attracted me: they sport the familiar red, white, and blue, with the same font used on the jerseys as the Capitals. They also reminded me of the Capitals in terms of playing style, with lots of offensive firepower, particularly the previous two years with Taylor Hall, Adam Henrique, Justin Shugg, and others in the lineup. They still retain arguably one of the best defensemen in the CHL, Ryan Ellis.
I set out early Saturday morning, and spent seven hours driving in the rain. Yuck. Seven hours and several cups of coffee later, I arrived in Erie to a light snow. I checked into my hotel and waited for a reasonable hour to head out to dinner. Well, it started snowing. A lot. By the time I set out for dinner and the game, the roads were covered, not plowed, and extremely slippery. My rental car was a Toyota Corolla. Not exactly a car made for snow.
It was a slidey trip over to Tullio Arena in downtown Erie. The arena reminded me of my high school gymnasium -- before its renovation in 2000. It was pretty old and rundown, but packed with a little over 5,400 very rabid fans. I headed down to rinkside as the warmups began.
You couldn't wipe the smile off my face. I'd only ever seen these guys on my TV or on my computer watching OHL Live. There was Ryan Ellis! Kenny Ryan! Jack Campbell! Alexander Khokhlachev (please draft him, Caps)!
After the too-short warmups, I met tweeps Erika and Devin for the first time, and we found our seats, four rows behind the Otters bench.
Ryan Ellis scored first in the first few minutes of the game, but after that, there wasn't much for us to cheer about. The Otters struck again and again, and Jack Campbell was pulled after the fifth Otters goal in the second period. He was replaced by Michael Nishi (new trade acquisition John Cullen apparently had the flu).
Going into the third period, Zack Kassian, Alexander Khokhlachev, and Nick Ebert did not reappear on the ice (they were banished to the locker room for poor play). Brady Vail scored one late in the game for the Spits, but it was far too late. The Spits lost 8-2 as Otter Brett Thompson got a hat trick plus one, scoring four goals.
Remember the Capitals 7-0 loss to the Rangers? Yeah, it pretty much felt like that.
So, not a great first time seeing the Spitfires. But I was still so happy to actually SEE them. It allowed me the chance to see things you don't get from a score sheet or from a pixelated computer broadcast with TV timeouts.
Jack Campbell, after being pulled, didn't sulk in the corner of the bench. He was standing there leaning over the boards the rest of the game, opening the door for teammates as he intently watched the game.
Ryan Ellis proved himself to be the perfect choice for Spitfires captain in his final age-eligible season. He was constantly encouraging his teammates, offering constructive criticism when something went awry, and supporting his goaltender, most notably by skating over to Nishi after he'd allowed a goal and patting him on the head and offering words of encouragement. I can't wait to see Ellis in a Nashville Predators uniform.
Sunday, after making my first ever Tim Hortons stop at a location just down the street from my hotel (PS, coffee, delicious, amazing), I traipsed home, with a soundtrack provided by my phone's TuneIn Radio app. Which meant that I was able to listen to Kolbe call the 12:30 Capitals/Penguins game while I was on the road, and I listened to Michal Neuvirth and the Capitals gloriously shut out the Penguins 3-0 as I was passing just outside of Pittsburgh.
No, the trip wasn't exactly what I wanted, but it was worth it all the same. Next time, I'll just have to head out to the Spitfires' home WFCU Centre in Windsor, Ontario, and watch them win at home.


text:
In the course of our recent study of the Stephenson/Stevenson family in Lincolnshire, we have run across a fascinating Stephenson family group. John Stevenson married Anne Clarke on 09 July 1688 in Hogsthorpe, Lincolnshire. John and Anne had three children: Elizabeth (born 05 October 1690), John (born 18 February 1691), and Edward (born 08 July 1694). They were apparently well-to-do for they had four servants — Elizabeth Kirkby, Unknown Balaam, Willm Hastrop, and Anne Harrison.
Born about 1663, John was a contemporary of whom we have come to call Henry I, born about 1666. Anne, John's wife, was born about 1667. The ages of all three are derived from the ages they declared on their marriage records. At this time, we do not have the birth or christening record of any of the three.
Anne Stevenson's maiden name, Clarke, is the same as Susannah's, wife of Henry I. Were they sisters or close relatives? We do not know yet, but we are hoping the information will surface as our study continues.
In 1692, the English Parliament levied a poll tax on each landowner to finance the war with France. John Stevenson had to pay 6 shillings as his share, i.e. 1 shilling each for himself, Anne, the two children who were born at the time of the tax, and servants William Hastrop and Anne Harrison. Although the other two servants are recorded by name, it does not state whether a tax was paid for them.
Speculation abounds about this family group, of whom we have learned so much. It is highly probable that there is a family connection to our Stephensons but we have not nailed it down at this time. Sandra and I have requested records from the Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake City that may yield further information. As we learn more, I will keep you informed.


text:
Loren Nerell - Lilin Dewa CDLoren Nerell - Indonesian Soundscapes CDLoren Nerell - Taksu CDSteve Roach - Stream of Thought CD
I love Taksu. It remains my favorite of Loren's works.
Michael William Gilbert Moving Pictures
Opeth: Live at Royal Albert Hall (black metal of the highest calibre)
Celer-Pockets of WheatJanek Shaefer-Extended PlayEberhard Weber-Colours 3-CD BoxAC/DC-Volts
New "ambient" John Foxx, or new "really loves J.G. Ballard and Gary Numan" John Foxx?
Which "new" John Foxx CD are you referring to? Think the latest is "Quiet Man," but I read it's spoken word with some background music...


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This Really How N*ggas Act When Some New Chief Keef Drops: Young Chop Mad Hype To Chief Keef's "First Day Out"
Posted by Jay
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Tuesday, January 25, 2011
Let me have it (answers, not a pot roast)
So, right, Facebook. None of that was on Facebook. What I DID mention on FB was that Jake had also taken the opportunity (in a second email, no less) to tell me to STOP PIN BASTING MY QUILTS. She says that 505 Spray & Baste is totally the way to go, and she hasn't pinned a thing in 10 years. I expressed my skepticism and then offered the question to my Facebook peeps: pin or spray? I got so many responses that Jake and Melissa (my other QH overlord) and I decided to make an article out of it: The Great Quilt Debates. So, I want to know what all you non-Facebooky people have to say. Give your answer in the comments, and I may quote you in the article, using only your first name and maybe a city/state. Two more questions will be posited here in the next few days, after you've had enough time to weigh in.
And if you have any opinions on pot roasts, I'd be happy to hear those as well.
57 comments:
- Monique said...
I don't pin or spray my quilts. I use a three roll quilt frame--I hand quilt-- and so avoid that whole mess.
As far as pot roasts go...ummm.. I'll pass on that topic.
- January 25, 2011 at 1:49 PM
- ~Michelle~ said...
Spray all the way - I've never pinned! Tip - you may want to put something down to catch the overspray, or else your hubs will be pissed when you get spray baste all over the BRAND NEW hardwood floors. I personally don't make many efforts to ventilate when spraying either - I must like the fumes!
- January 25, 2011 at 1:52 PM
- Nancy said...
I pin...I pin for many reasons but mainly because I have pins and I don't have the spray. I like to use what I have...and that goes for pot roasts too..
- January 25, 2011 at 1:55 PM
- Anne said...
Spray basting is too messy. I baste with safety pins.
don't like pot roast, any way you slice it.
- January 25, 2011 at 1:57 PM
- Patty said...
OK so is there really a Japanese Penis Festival? If so, when & where? You gals sure seem to know alot about those kind of things. LOL
- January 25, 2011 at 1:58 PM
- Patty said...
Oh I forgot the question....I spray because if I pin and FMQ I always run over the little buggers and my machine bulks at that kind of treatment.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:00 PM
- DianeY said...
I'm going to pass on the pot roasts-you do such a good job!
I usually pin, but I think I'd spray if I could find the spray on this island (Oahu).My LQS has tried to carry it, but can't find any supplier who will ship it! I brought some back from LA the last time I was there, & it worked great.It was supposed to be good for 3 quilts, but I used almost the whole can for 1 so I think I overdid it a tad!
- January 25, 2011 at 2:09 PM
- Baskets Of Quilts said...
I pin since that's what I first learned. Spraying sounds too messy for me. As for debates the biggest ones in quilting I've read about were pinning vs. Spraying, prewashing or not fabric before use, pressing to one side or open, and cotton thread vs. Other types or brand of thread. Sounds like a great article. Maybe you should have a poll.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:12 PM
- Megan said...
I thought of a poll, but there won't be so many answers that I can't tally them on my own, and I really want the comments.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:15 PM
- Vicki said...
I'm a pinner. The potential for mess with the spray is why I haven't tried it yet. Pinning's not that bad.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:19 PM
- Kwilt Noob said...
I already gave my two cents on FB. Spray is a poisonous mess of goo.
I'll never eat pot roast again!
- January 25, 2011 at 2:27 PM
- The Calico Cat said...
Send it to a long armer & forget about it.
(Spray otherwise.)
- January 25, 2011 at 2:27 PM
- HRH Gigi said...
Spray all the way. I could not get things smooth when pinning. Just the act of putting in the pin and fastening it closed pulls the fabric from the surface and then lays back down, sometimes causing ripples. And I did not want to put in as many as I really needed to keep it secure (read: lazy). With spray the whole thing can be smoothed perfectly. And it stays. I have two lap size quilts, spray basted, waiting to be actually quilted, that are folded up and moved around quite a bit. And they are still ready to go, even a few months later. I love it.
And I can quilt with much more concentration as I don't have to worry about where my next pin is and when I should take it out. I hate that game of chicken. Will you get that next little section done without hitting the pin, or will the pin get in the way and blow the rythym.
I have heard concern that the spray is bad for your needles and/or machine. But since I did not pay the equivalent of a small car for my machine, I am good with it. Spray on.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:27 PM
- The Calico Cat said...
I forgot...
If you spray, don't spray the batting, it has too many nooks & crannys. Spray the back, press the batting to it, spray back side ot the top & press that to the batting.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM
- Wendy said...
I pin. The spray's not bad, and I like to use it, but it's rather expensive and I'm rather cheap.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:33 PM
- HRH Gigi said...
Oh, one more thing on the joy of spraying. If you get your husband or other unsuspecting volunteer to help, you can baste 3 big quilts in less than 30 minutes. Seriously. And we spray in the garage for the mess. We have carpet (previous owners) but you could easily put down a tarp, drop cloth or old sheet. No problem. You're going to wash the thing for the crinkliness anyhow when you're done, right? (Sorry, that was two things.)
- January 25, 2011 at 2:33 PM
- Linda said...
I've also been spraying for about 10 years. I don't use 505 but another spray I buy locally which is much cheaper, not as smelly and holds well. I also find that irregularities in the quilt (God forbid I have coolie hats, wrinkles or such) tend to behave much better when they've been sprayed. I used to have well over 500 pins, now, I have very few, and I like it like that!
As to your other question--I'm having trouble with the pot roast idea but agree with your pigs in a blanket. Of course, I have a son who was not circumcised so I'm an "expert", right?
Lurking Linda
- January 25, 2011 at 2:39 PM
- Bree said...
Spray, spray, spray, spray, spray, spray, spray!!! I have been pricked by my last pin, my friend. I LOVE the spray. Swear by it, and have procrastinated basting perfectly good quilts when I had plenty of time to quilt them merely because I was out of spray.
- January 25, 2011 at 2:44 PM
- Bree said...
I'll add, I have a two year old. A little spray-baste mess is the least of my mess-related problems. ;)
- January 25, 2011 at 2:45 PM
- floribunda... aka Julie said...
I own a can of spray but it's been sitting for a long time because all I remember is the stickyness everywhere. Wait -- isn't that a perfect segue into the meatloaf discussion? (all I'll add is that my DH is a heathen with a pig in a blanket)
- January 25, 2011 at 3:13 PM
- SewHappyGeek @ excellcrafts said...
I used only a tack gun on my first quilt and it got wrinkles. I used 505 on the second quilt, with tacks on the edges and it's fantastic. Never was tempted to pin as it looks like it would be a tedious nightmare.
As for weiners, I'm an American married to an Englishman living in the UK, and he's still got 100% of his 'wing wang', as my tween calls it. It kinda looks like a cross between a sad old man and squidged sausage in a casing. But when it's, um, alert it just looks like they all do - the last chicken in the shop and all that...
- January 25, 2011 at 4:30 PM
- greelyrita said...
I used to pin, then I sprayed. Pinning is hard on the back and fingers, though the spoon method helps with the latter problem. Spray is messy and expensive but it's quick. I tried a couple of different sprays and they don't all hold equally well. The first spray I used was Elmer's which listed quilts but was not soley for that. It was the cheapest and held the best. Now I have a 3 roller quilt frame and I machine quilt. I prefer this last system.
- January 25, 2011 at 4:32 PM
- deborah said...
I am rolling in the floor...
I pin, because I'm very sensitive to the fumes from the spray. Maybe if I could spray one outside, I could get by with it..I hate pinning and crawling around trying to straighten everything.
- January 25, 2011 at 4:43 PM
- Charlotte said...
I only spray small quilts that I am going to stipple - machine quilting hides a multitude of sins!
- January 25, 2011 at 5:10 PM
- Natalie said...
I pin mostly because I have pins and I don't have spray. If I had to rationalize my choice to continue using pins I would have to say it's because they are better for the environment and because pinning gives me the opportunity to admire my work more closely (and catch stray threads).
- January 25, 2011 at 5:12 PM
- Wilma NC said...
I used to pin when I hand quilted. Now I do big things on the frame, but when I do smaller things on the Bernina, I spray baste. But I still have all of my pins...
On the other topic, I have always thought that a circumcised penis looked much prettier. And being a nurse, I have seen thousands!!
- January 25, 2011 at 5:18 PM
- Kitty said...
I don't spray OR pin - I use "fusible" batting on the quilts that I quilt myself. It eliminates both having to use pins and the mess/fumes/smell of the sprays. It's great!! My larger quilts get sent to my long-arm quilter/friend. I let her do the basting and quilting for me - that's what friends are for!
And how come "fusible" wasn't a choice?
- January 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM
- Stormy Days said...
I have never pinned, I just don't know how many pins it would take and how do you quilt around those pins, is that some free motion I don't know. Anyway, I have sprayed and I also like fusible batting, not the cheap stuff, which will leave you crying. As far as pot roast, well, my memory may be faulty, but not pot roast and not a little monk either. Let me think about it. I'll let you know.
- January 25, 2011 at 6:44 PM
In the past, I pinned the quilts. The last quilt I used the 505 spray and it seems to be holding quite well. I read about using Aqua Net hair spray and plan on using that for my next quilt - just to try it out. It would be a lot cheaper and easier to find then the 505.
- January 25, 2011 at 7:05 PM
- Karin said...
Pin baste or ''Dritz'' baste large quilts, spray baste small quilts/pillows/etc. That's what I do.
- January 25, 2011 at 7:16 PM
- Mary said...
I pin and pin and pin and pin. I HATE pinning. The older I get ....well, just straightening up after a session on the floor is painful. And not once but twice I have stitched into my finger playing chicken with the pins. Spray sounds like a good idea but I can not find 505 in my small town. My ideal fix would be a long arm. Ohhh how I covet a longarm.
- January 25, 2011 at 7:48 PM
- mjnauert said...
I always pin baste my Japanese penises so that they WILL become circumcised. I have told you before that I am talented with a seam ripper.
- January 25, 2011 at 7:49 PM
- Sarah Craig said...
I pinned my first couple of quilts, then discovered basting spray and I've never looked back! I tape my batt to the living room floor, hang the back of the quilt on my clothesline and spray it, then bring it in and apply it to the batt; trim the batt to size, then flip it and re-tape it to the floor. Outside to the clothesline again to spray the front of the quilt, inside to apply it to the batt, and you're all done in about half an hour, and only about 10-15 minutes of that down on the floor! If only I could figure out a way to do it on the wall! (I'm working on that...)
Tell Anonymous that Rave hairspray works ok for things you don't have to roll to quilt, like mug rugs, coasters, potholders, and small quilts, but it is not repositionable and doesn't hold well if you roll the quilt. It is a lot cheaper, though, so I keep a can on hand for small jobs.
Spray basting has eliminated most pinches on the back of my quilts, which endeared it to me from the start. I'm now trying to train myself to use a quilting frame and faux-longarm quilter, so I won't be using the spray as much, but it's awesome stuff!!
- January 25, 2011 at 9:29 PM
- Opiesgirl said...
I didnt even know about the spray basting! I will definately try it out - can't stand the pin basting.
I always thought the 'pot roast' looked like a turtle wearing a turtleneck...
- January 25, 2011 at 9:54 PM
- Zazzu said...
Pin. Don't like the mess or smell of the spray.
I like crockpot roasts, cuz they're easy.
- January 25, 2011 at 10:26 PM
- Kit Lang said...
I am a pinner because I mostly don't work with cotton (silk, satin, linen are my usual fabrics) and the sprays don't work on those.
As for potroasts - I suggest a liberal application of spray, with pins for support as needed. :)
- January 25, 2011 at 10:34 PM
- Joy said...
Pin, both my quilt and my fingers. If I used the spray stuff, I'm almost positive that I'd have to figure out how to unstick the toddlers from the cats without running them through a washing machine.
- January 25, 2011 at 11:04 PM
I tried pinning a couple of times...hated doing it and hated trying to quilt around the pins. Tried tacking....also a PITA. Don't like the messy spray, some sprays gum up your machine works, and anything that smells that badly for that long can't be good for you or the quilt. My solution was a longarm, or you can send out to a longarmer, or try Sharon Schamber's method of basting....still basting, but no pins. Look her basting video up on You Tube or her website in the Free Videos section.
- January 25, 2011 at 11:53 PM
- Peggi said...
I'm giggling over the comments from posters who seem to think you're talking about actual pot roasts...
I've already weighed in on FB re pin vs spray, but am curious and hoping you pursue the fusible batting thread - I had no idea it was available!
- January 26, 2011 at 12:09 AM
- Mary-Anne said...
Pin. And tho it's a pain in the arse taking them out because I usually get to a point where I refuse to take off my f-ing gloves AGAIN, I just can't trust something with the consistensy of hairspray to hold it all together.
- January 26, 2011 at 12:30 AM
- Tsigeyusv said...
I've pinned, and gotten some nasty wrinkles in the backing. Probably from lack of experience, but it warped my perceptions.
I currently spray. I use my linoleum floor and blue painter's tape, to make sure the backing is nice and non-wrinkled. I lay out the batting and get out those wrinkles next. I then lay out the quilt top. Once everything looks good (enough) and there is plenty of backing material around all 4 sides, I then peel back half the batting and quilt top, spray, then press down the batting, respray for the quilt top, then press that back into place. I turn around and do the second half. It's quick, it's pretty easy (although with age, my knees definitely wish I had a carpeted surface), and it keeps the fabric wrinkles from showing. Now if only I could use it on my face.
As for your second topic; my former husband was trimmed man-meat. My two sons are unscathed. Both look okay to me.
- January 26, 2011 at 4:27 AM
Pin, tried everything else. Tacks don't hold tight enough. Spray gums the sewing machine needle.
Not only does Japan have festivals with large sculptural dodads, they also have Shrines with those same art works displayed in front of shrine. Makes for a great photographic moment, but not one you put into the family album.
- January 26, 2011 at 7:34 AM
- annettesquilts said...
I quilt for myself and others on my home sewing machine. I have received a few spray basted quilts from clients; dislike it intensely. Gums up the machine and there were folds glued into the batting layer. When I baste, I use straight pins. Quick to insert, quick to remove and I am a lot less likely to sew over one.
- January 26, 2011 at 10:09 AM
- Michele said...
I hand quilt, and pins have been known to leave holes/snags when removed. I thread baste. It's tedious, but it does not do any damage. Also, pins can rust over time. Michele
- January 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM
I started using the Sharon Schambers method of basting with DMC floss and base boards. Takes longer but I can do it sitting down & watching tv & my back doesn't kill me afterwards. It works really well for hand or machine quilting. Here's a link to the video
- January 26, 2011 at 1:26 PM
- Lisa Bee said...
I'm trying to reduce the number of random chemicals that get onto or into my body. I don't use packaged shampoo or laundry detergent and I started making my own soap. Spray basting doesn't really fit with my esthetic.
Also, I'm not sure how I'd detach the dog hair from the quilt if it was covered with adhesive.
- January 26, 2011 at 2:40 PM
Deborah says:
Neither really. I won't use the spray baste due to chemicals and I don't want to take the chance of gumming up my fancy shmancy sewing machine.
Pins are ok for some small things.
Usually I just use my sewing machine to baste (if I'm going to baste at all). Sew a few stitches, snip, move the project 12 inches along, then sew a few more stitches, snip. Repeat.
The trick is to either use a contrasting color of thread if you are anal (like me) and are going to want to un-baste your quilt after quilting. Or use a matching thread and let the snips work themselves out in the wash over time. Or you can get your 4-year old to pick them out for you.
Deborah in Asheville, NC
Re: Pot roast or sausage....my husband is Jewish and I've seen a couple of pot roasts. I'll take the sausage.
- January 26, 2011 at 3:32 PM
- Mary said...
I spray my quilts. I've quilted many a quilt basted with spray and have never had it gum up on the needle.
The part I hate it crawling around on the floor to do the spraying. I think it was Patsy Thompson's website that shows how she pins her backing to the wall to spray. I just don't have a large enough wall space I want to have covered with pinnable board all the time.
- January 26, 2011 at 7:35 PM
I always spray baste. No more pins for me. Arthritis in the hands and knees made me want to scream when I had to pin.
- January 27, 2011 at 12:06 AM
I'm old and can't do the floor thing so I started spraying and LOVE it! Will only use 505....everything else was gummy. Sometimes, I add a pin to a corner, but the spray holds but is also repositionable. I'm a believer!!!!
- January 27, 2011 at 11:40 AM
Chemical smells really bother me, so I pin baste. A long time ago, a teacher at a guild workshop recommended spray basting. She said to only do little squirts all over, instead of heavily spraying. Then, she would pat the fabric onto the batting, rather than smoothing and stretching. It seemed like it would save a lot of time. But, killer headaches keep me from spraying.
- January 27, 2011 at 6:18 PM
I pin baste because
1. I avoid change and have been pin basting for years
2. I avoid aerosols if at all possible and don;t have anywhere large and weather proof enough to spray baste in a well enough ventilated area- and if I did I would probably still avoid aerosols, not really liking the idea of a full face shield and an N95 mask as part of my quilting regalia
3. I want to wait a hundred years and see if all those spray basted quilts fall apart from chemical deterioration
(PS I don't understand all those options for leaving an email address and becoming your "friend" but I do love your blog, so will have to remain anonymous)
- January 27, 2011 at 11:15 PM
- Teresa said...
I pin with safety pins so I don't draw blood.
My lungs are the type that seize up at any exposure to anything scented, unscented, chemically, droplety opportunity, so I'm not even going to try the spray baste - I'm just to lazy to spend the following 3 hours in emerg.
So pins it is.
My DS in 'intact'. Did you know there is an iPhone App for 'intactivism?" Apparently is less that 5 bucks. Just in case anyone is interested.
- January 27, 2011 at 11:26 PM
- Teresa said...
I pin with safety pins so I don't draw blood.
My lungs are the type that seize up at any exposure to anything scented, unscented, chemically, droplety opportunity, so I'm not even going to try the spray baste - I'm just to lazy to spend the following 3 hours in emerg.
So pins it is.
My DS in 'intact'. Did you know there is an iPhone App for 'intactivism?" Apparently is less that 5 bucks. Just in case anyone is interested.
- January 27, 2011 at 11:26 PM
- Mariella said...
I have no "pot roast" experience. I'm happy with my own Mr. Trimmy!!
As for the pin or spray....neither do I employ. I'm a "Quilt As You Goer" and I bat up my blocks as they are finished and since the pieces are manageable, I can easily baste with thread and needle with the blocks taped to my cutting table and it's all easy peasy. No bending down to the floor or anything disagreeable like that.
- January 29, 2011 at 12:03 PM
- Pattie Crum said...
I used to spray only but had trouble with the back sometimes pleating so now I spray and also pin just a bit evenly all over, now I don't have any problems with the fabric moving and I can't say enough how much you need to use a walking foot if you're straight line quilting and for binding. btw, I live with a "natural one" and there's no differance in the end, so to speak.
- January 30, 2011 at 11:32 AM
I use pins and it works pretty good ... but then again I've never tried the spray for fear of toxic fumes, so what do I know.
Love pot roasts. Would even consider keeping a few as pets.. were it not for the aforementioned fear.
- February 20, 2011 at 9:31 PM


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