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In Part 1 of this series of posts, we discussed the process of crosswalking–matching items on current program records schedules to the new functional schedules–for records created in the process of licensing a new applicant to practice a given profession. What about after the full license has been created, though? How should agencies handle the records surrounding renewal, lapsed licenses, inactive licenses, and expired licenses?
To begin, let's look at the functional and business processes behind license files. A small minority of occupational licenses are lifetime licenses: once someone is approved to practice, he or she does not have to renew the license. It remains active and effective unless it has been revoked.
The remainder of professional licenses, though, require some sort of renewal process, typically through licensees' submission of continuing education hours and renewal fees. Some occupational licensing boards also conduct random audits of licensee-reported continuing education hours.
So, what happens if a licensee fails to submit continuing education and/or renewal fees on time? It depends, based on the occupational licensing board's establishing statutes and rules. Non-renewed licenses often become inactive¹, meaning the licensee is no longer allowed to practice, but can still be reactivated upon submission of continuing education credits and a fee (either the renewal fee or a special reactivation fee). However, if a license is inactive for too long, it can fully expire²–meaning that if the licensee wishes to become active again, he or she must start over as a new applicant.
Finally, licenses can be revoked due to clerical error, or for cause. (Part 3 of this series of posts will go into greater detail on investigations and disciplinary hearings within Occupational Licensing Boards.)
So how were these workflows documented when the current program schedules were written? It varies from board to board, but many older schedules, which were written with a paper workflow in mind, document this entire process.
In the Board of Nursing schedule, the core licensee file is based on the preliminary application. We can see this through the two "inactive files" included in this excerpt (Items 21041 and 21048), which direct reactivated licenses to be transferred back to the core application files (3333 and 3334). Inactive files are scheduled for destruction after 2 years, meaning the license has fully expired and cannot be reactivated. This retention schedule also has an additional category of license file–one in which the licensee is known to be deceased (Item 21012).
Additionally, this excerpt contains two additional items that are critical to the maintenance of current licenses: renewal records (Item 21047) and reinstatement records (Item 43769).
Now let's look at how these same records are scheduled on the new functional schedules, under Subfunction 13-2: Authorizing and Licensing:
Under the new schedules, all records related to the core license are scheduled under the same RC No.: 1324.3. How exactly does this work?
Tip: There are two possible trigger periods!
The three-year retention period does not start until "expiration or renewal." Within each license, there is a core body of material that is retained until the license fully expires–typically, the license itself, initial application, qualifying exam scores, etc. Records relating to renewal, however, are less important than this core body of material. The trigger period for these records is when the license renews. So the license renewal and license reinstatement files on the schedule excerpt can be destroyed 3 years after renewal or reinstatement, while everything else needs to be retained until 3 years after expiration.
Tip: What does "expiration" mean?
Inactive license periods vary greatly by board. Some don't have an inactive period at all, while others will let licensees reactivate ten or twenty years after the license first lapsed. On the functional schedule, "expiration" means that the license can no longer be renewed, and the licensee must apply as a new applicant to practice again. Any inactive licenses, then, must be retained the same way as active ones–until they have fully expired.
Using this information, we can match the example schedule to the functional schedule like this:
Where does this leave the core license file, though? Under the current program schedule, these records are scheduled to be retained for 32 years total – two in office, and 30 in the State Records Center. This retention period is based on a typical career length rather than the status of the core license. Space considerations may have caused the board to decide to schedule its records this way. Other boards may have similar long retention periods for inactive (but not expired) licenses, if the licenses have a long window for reactivation.
In these cases, what matters is how long the records are ultimately retained. The State Records Center is still operating as additional storage space for semi-active records. If your agency has a long retention period like this and has previously sent records to the State Records Center for storage, contact your records analyst to work out a storage solution under the new schedules.
- Terminology varies by board. Other boards use the terms "lapsed" or "expired" to describe this schedule status.
- Again, terminology varies. Boards that use the term "expired" to refer to an inactive license frequently use the term "relinquished" to refer to a license that can no longer be renewed or reactivated.


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Currently reading
These Eyes
Cate Tiernan
Recently added
4:00 pm 12 March 2013
Belles is an entertaining read. The characters and settings are vibrant, and there is a good, strong message about being yourself, not judging, and having guts. I am looking forward to the next book.
Belles starts off by meeting Izzie Scott and Mira Monroe (Also known as Isabelle and Mirabelle). Izzie is a sweet girl who lives in a poor town, Harborside, where she swims and has ice cream with her friends each day. Her home life isn't so good though. Her grandma has medical issues and on somedays doesn't even know she has a granddaughter. Izzie is only narrowly avoiding foster care.
Mira Monroe is a snobby rich girl who hangs out with other girls like herself. Of course, she doesn't mean to be snobby, it is just the way things are in Emerald Cove, the glamorous part of North Carolina. Mira is best friends with one mean girl, Savannah, and turns a blind eye to her friends cruel comments and actions. Mira is a good girl at heart, just she has no guts.
One day Izzie gets the bad news that her Grandmother is moving into a nursing home. She is sent off to some distant relatives she didn't know she has, the Monroes. Izzy doesn't fit in to Emerald Cove, especially after she makes enemies with Savannah. Even Mira plots with her friends behind Izzies back. She blames Izzie for the changes happening in her family and social life.
Throughout the book there are a lot of good messages. When Izzie is judged unfairly, and laughed at because of where she came from, we learn to not judge without backstory and evidence. We learn to have guts to stand up to not-so-much friends. And to do what you want to do, not what others tell you to do.
I love how Mira grows throughout the story, she becomes not so afraid of being herself. Izzie helps her a lot with this. She sees how Izzie is real, not like her friends. A lot of Mira's attitude in the beginning of the book is caused by the society around her. She doesn't know how to act any other way. Emerald Cove is kinda a snobbish place, but I hope Izzie and Mira can change it. Especially since there are a lot of good people in Emerald Cove, just the mean ones hold the reins.
This book has secrets, blackmail, mean girl plotting, and the hopes of two budding romances. It kept me reading with all it's drama, good messages, and real characters. I highly recommend this book.
4/5 stars
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Circulation and mixing in Lake Champlain
Yadav, Badri Vishal
MetadataShow full item record
The objective of this study is to evaluate general circulation patterns and exchange coefficients in Lake Champlain during summer, to characterize mass transfer between major bays and the main lake. The motivation for this work is to support a general project concerning the movement of potentially toxic algae blooms in the lake. Circulation patterns are evaluated by analyzing prior data and synthesizing data from a Lagrangian study performed in the central region of the lake using surface drifters. A non-steady mixed segment water quality model is developed using existing measurements of chemical concentrations to estimate exchange coefficients for transport between the main lake and major bays. Results are compared with a previous steady state model based on annual average conditions and significant differences are found. Bulk dispersive transport is shown to generally be more significant than advective transport. Maps are produced summarizing the general circulation patterns and estimates of exchange coefficients found during summer months, when algal blooms usually occur in the lake. Results of this study should be useful for understanding the general circulation in the lake and for predicting the movement of algal blooms. Keywords: Lake Champlain, lake circulation, water quality model, algae blooms, Lagrangian approach, surface drifters, phosphorus and chloride budget, dispersive mass transport coefficient.


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America's Native Tribe is Predicting Earth Destruction with a Comet
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Earth Destruction is approaching in company of Comet.
Destructive comet is going to hit the Earth in near future resulting in Apocalypse
The native tribes of America have various strange beliefs and the same applies to the Hopi tribe that is famous for its accurate predictions. They believe that the Earth's destruction was happening many times in the past approximately three times and now again a comet will destroy the Earth.
Hopi tribe
Hopi tribe is one of the America's native tribes. The legendary personality in the tribe predicts about different things and in past their predictions came true in a large proportion. According to their beliefs, Earth has met some destruction in the past, and we belong to the fourth world. They predict now that another apocalypse is going to hit the Earth in immediate, imminent times. But what will be the major cause of Earth destruction?


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Views: 420, Replies: 7 » Jump to the end
Jul 16, 2017 12:45 PM CST
|Today I split my hive. I took the queen and put her in the nuc along with 2 frames of brood and 1 frame of honey, 1empty frame and 1 empty frame of drawn-out comb. That left my big hive queen less hopefully they will make a new one.
Name: Al
Jul 17, 2017 7:18 AM CST
|Look in a couple more days and you should find queen cells. Use care when handling frames with cells on them.
You not dressed with out a smile.
Jul 17, 2017 7:34 AM CST
|I was planning on cutting out all but 2 or 3. To try to keep them from reswarming. What do you think should I do that.
Name: Al
Jul 19, 2017 6:44 AM CST
|First off I would have did a true split instead of a making a nuc if I was worried about the colony swarming.
A true split is taking half the bees, in my case one of the deeps and setting it on a double screen board, use a cloak board if you want them to make their own queen and just the screen board if you add a queen form a nuc or buy one.
But with what you did I would probably cut away a bunch of the cells but I seem to always miss a few.
You not dressed with out a smile.
Jul 19, 2017 9:36 AM CST
|Thanks for the info. I really didn't want to do a split. But I was told the are going to swarm. They said that should help if I get most of the queen cells.
Name: Al
Jul 19, 2017 7:28 PM CST
|To prevent a swarm when queen cells are present in the hive I do a artificial swarm. Take the queen and roughly half the bees to a new deep.
I tried the cutting out of queen cells and it just never worked for me, I always missed one some place.
You not dressed with out a smile.
Jul 19, 2017 8:30 PM CST
|That's the way I understand it you can never get them all. That's why I just took the queen and a couple frames of brood to make her think she swarmed. The guy told me to get as many queen cells as I can but to make sure I leave as least 3 he said the new queen should kill the rest and hopefully they won't reswarm. Like I said before l didn't even want to do a split till next spring but I also didn't want to risk losing half my bees to a swarm. Odds are I'll be at work when they do
Jul 29, 2017 9:28 AM CST
|Here's an update on my split. It didn't work. the queen either flew away or was killed. As it turns out when I did the split there was 2 queens in the hive. I know this because after 9 days I was looking for queen cells and I found eggs and young larvae and the new queen
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IdleAire Technologies Corp., a provider of truck stop electrification services to the long-haul trucking industry, came out Thursday, April 5, with its 2006 financial report, and there's a lot more red ink than black on the page.
The Knoxville, TN-based company reports it had $14 million in revenues last year, but claimed $60 million in losses – about double its losses from the previous year.
In a press release, IdleAire officials said the losses were mainly caused by the increasing number of facilities that are being built around the country.
As of Dec. 31, 2006, the company was operating 99 sites in 26 states.


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In need of motivation to stay focused and uplifted. This one for you. Enjoy
In need of motivation to stay focused and uplifted. This one for you. Enjoy
So, I'm working on Day 3 of affirmation speed paint video. I just wanted to show the shimmer on this metallic watercolor paint Batman got me a few years ago. I think it's freakin cool.
How proud of you are you? Have you EVER said it to yourself? I bet I know the answer to that. It's very very easy to take ourselves for granted. I know for me, I'm my worst critic. But I believe if we want better for ourselves, it starts from within.
❤ Today's Affirmation : I am proud of me❤
I said this to myself while driving the other day. And got teary-eyed. It was the weirdest thing. I wasn't expecting that at all. But it felt so good to hear. I felt weak for a second, but more than that, I felt stronger within myself. So I CHALLENGE YOU to tell yourself that you are proud of you. I would love to hear how it went. And keep an eye our for this speed painting on my youtube channel (OpaChi Artist ) later on today.
30 Days of Affirmation Day 2 posted! I hope you enjoy watching the process as much as I do making it. But more then that, I really hope these Affirmations help you get through this thing called 'life'. YouTube : OpaChi Artist to watch the full time-lapse video. ❤ or just click Right Here
I'm on YouTube! I told myself this year will be the year I reach out in a different way. See my daily affirmation art process in action on my new Art channel on YouTube. I'm kinda nervous, but I'm using that as courage fuel! I know I can do this… It's brand Spanking new, so YouTube lovers, art collectors, and all the in-between, check it out! Like and subscribe! Just hop on YouTube and search : OpaChi Artist. My goal is to post upload everyday (or every other day) since these are "daily affirmations. Hopefully this will be a bigger gateway to a brighter, more self sufficient life as well. Enjoy. I'd Love to hear what you think. 😘
Good morning, early birds and night owls! So, we all have goals. I'm. Sure of it. And sometimes, we fall short of those goals for a thousand different reasons. Unfortunately, none of those reasons matter. When you fall down, you get back up and keep trying. Staying in a "forever ready" attitude could mean the difference between finally completing your goals and getting stuck in the cycle of 'try again'. Seriously, you can't expect to do your best the 10th time around if you are doubting or dreading that reset.
❤ Today's Affirmation : I AM READY ❤
Be ready and stay that way. The build-up of enthusiasm (being ready) may be exactly what you need to help you achieve those goals every time. It really doesn't matter if you fall short. It's going to happen sometimes. What matters is what you do next. So, I ask you. Are you READY?
When I first started drawing as an adult, this (⬆⬆) was all I thought I could do. Sketches for Artisan works of mine. I didn't have a lick of confidence in myself. I seriously thought I was wasting my own time. But it felt right, somehow? If felt like I was disappointing the world by not trying. Eventually, after falling many times, I got better…
… And better still…
Placing me at a point where I can say I'm well on my way to NOT sucking. You too can stay ready and tackle any thought that tells you otherwise. Stay ready with enthusiasm and watch the change in outcome. It'll blow your mind. Light and Love. L
A little "Night Sky" practice for one of my current commisions. I couldn't sleep and the kids are so congested, all I hear is sniffling and attempts to breathe during those sniffs coming our of their room. . Poor babies. Batman is still working, so why not I?! Lol! I'm in love with making night skies. That's not weird, right? Happy creating, all.
What do you do when you can't sleep?
Oh, commissions are currently open. I have three now, no biggies. I'm ready to take on even more.
This is a rough draft and color test for a bigger painting I'm working on. I ended up really liking it and framed it to see. Yeah, I think I'll finish this "rough draft" eventually and see where it leads. But the big painting will have her in different colors. This is the beginning of yet, another OpaChi chapter in my life. My New Year is all about making my name mean something in the artist/artisan world.
🎀Today's Affirmation : I am The New Year🎀
Now, this isn't about being or acting snooty or big headed. It's about helping yourself believe that you ARE important enough. YOU Do matter, as we all do. So why not share your gifts with the world and watch it explode with passion for you and themselves? Do you see how that works? Positivity is just as contagious as negativity can seem to be. Sometimes seeing someone do something brave is all that's needed to unlock your own passion.
I have a friend who purchased this ⬆⬆ art from me. She said my posts have made her want to draw and she loves it. It's "so relaxing", as she put it. To me, that was more rewarding then the sale…. But the sale was nice too. Let 2017 be the start of your never ending story. Never stop learning and never give up on your goals and dreams.
What's your new years resolutions? Are they believable and doable for you?
Happy new years, everyone. Light and love. L
First off, R.I.P Carrie Fisher. 😢 In honor of her amazing life on earth, I did a caricature of her.
❤ Today's Affirmation : The Force is with me Always ❤
To me, the force is another way of saying something within you that you cling to all the time. Especially during tough times. The force could be thoughts of what keeps you going. Your reminder for why what do what you do. It could be thoughts of the dreams and goals you are currently striving for. The people in your life that you work hard for. Like Chi, the force is anything and everything positive in your life that pushes you to go just 'one more day'.
So what is your driving force? What keeps you going further then you did the day before? I hope everyone is having a great week. ❤
So , why Jolly? Well, it's definitely a Christmas-y themed word. But I don't mean "Ho ho ho" Jolly (I just wanted to draw Santa), I mean the kind of Jolly that makes you feel all warm and loved inside. Still not with me? Okay, close your eyes and think of something, someone, or some act that brings you pure joy at first thought… You feel that? Yep, nice and Jolly. 😆
🎄❤ Today's Affirmation : Today, I Am Jolly🎄❤
Choose happiness over irritation today. Choose Joy over anger – even when you get cut off in traffic. No need to take that personally. Some people are just born jerks. That doesn't mean you have to be and it definitely doesn't mean it has to ruin your whole day. So, remember this one for today or feel free to share your own Affirmation for today in the comments. Light and live, TGIF! ❤
5 More Days (including christmas)!!! I swear I'm as excited as Danielle. Emma is 2, so she's just excited to spin the ornaments on the tree when I'm not looking.
❤🎄Today's Affirmation : The Best Gift Is Life🎄❤
It's easy to get caught up in the goings on of life that we may not realize we are just "going through the motions" and not really "living" it. It's so easy. Trust me, I know. Take a few steps back every now and then today and just breathe in all that's around you. Even in tough moments (I had three today), remembering to breathe instead of spaz gets me through it quicker then suffering in silence. We are alive. We can make choices and do fun things and hard things and all the in between things. Life… 'Nuff said. ❤


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Gujarat polls: From Dawood to a neta, how the Angadias are being used
The scanner is on the Angadias following an expose that suggested huge sums of black money was being brought in for the Gujarat elections. With the Election Commission capping the expenditure at Rs 28 lakh per candidate, many are relying heavily on black money.
The India Today sting revealed how politicians are using the Angadias to bring in the dirty cash. The Angadias were recently in the news when Dawood Ibrahim's brother, Iqbal Kaskar revealed that a lot of dirty cash was being moved for the syndicate through the Angadias.
The Angadias who are primarily diamond couriers have a well-entrenched network. They form a trusted network and are around 200 in number spread over Ahmedabad, Rajkot, Surat, Baroda, and Mumbai.
The Angadia system works on mutual trust and is an unofficial courier cum banking service. They are the conduit to the transfer of crores of rupees belonging to traders and rich people. Their area of operation is mainly between Mumbai and Gujarat.
The trust factor on the Angadias is so high that they would go to any length to protect their clients and also hide the contents. Hailing as they are originally from Kathiawad region in Gujarat, Angadias have been in business since the Independence days. They have in fact been the mainstay of unofficial courier-cum-banking service for people based in Mumbai and Gujarat.
Who are the Angadias and how do they operate
While doing business, they use code words such as Jokhim and Zhewar to convey the content of the parcel. Traders and businessmen based in Mumbai and Gujarat rely heavily on them to transfer money, jewelry, and diamonds. They transport in less than 24 hours for a very small fee. They charge Rs 100 for a Rs 1 lakh worth transfer.
There are around 200 Angadias in Mumbai and another 200 in Ahmedabad, Rajkot, Surat, and Baroda. In Mumbai, Angadias run the business from the Bhuleshwar, Opera House, Zaveri Bazaar localities in south Mumbai and northern suburbs like Malad, Borivli, and Ghatkopar.
They ferry the cash and other valuables bound for Gujarat to Mumbai Central Railway station, in vehicles with escorts - mostly privately hired security personnel.
Gold and diamonds are transferred physically, while a conveyed word is normally sufficient for transfer of cash. Generally, the sender and recipient decide on a code. The sender takes a code from the recipient - which is generally the serial number of a 10 or 100 note.
Then the sender informs the Angadia, who in turn conveys the same to his person at the recipient's end. Subsequently, it is delivered and the Rs 10 note bearing that currency number is taken - as a proof of delivery.
At times a telephone number is also used in place of currency note numbers. Here the recipient gives a missed call to the courier's cell to check the number.
Physical delivery of cash or diamond takes place on a daily basis. Generally, they go by Gujarat Mail and return the next day by Gujarat Mail. The Gujarat Mail departs from Mumbai Central at 10 pm and reaches Ahmedabad at 6.25 am the following day, while in the return direction the train leaves Ahmedabad at 10 pm and reaches the Mumbai Central Railway at 6.45 am the following day.
"Thirty to 50 percent of seats in two coaches of this train is booked by the Angadias. For security reasons, they travel in groups. They generally sit and gossip all through the night or sleep in turns.
OneIndia News


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Claire: Lady Gaga is hot
Marc: Lady Gaga is NOT hot.
Claire: I challenge you to a blog duel
Marc: I accept, you harlot. Continue reading
Claire: Lady Gaga is hot
Marc: Lady Gaga is NOT hot.
Claire: I challenge you to a blog duel
Marc: I accept, you harlot. Continue reading
Greetings from La Guardia airport! Your highly esteemed (ok, ridiculed) co-blogger is sitting on the floor with her dog and her laptop, bored and cranky because her flight has been delayed two hours due to, get this, the anticipation of rain. Not even real rain. What the hell is that? The airlines aren't even trying anymore.
I just watched a small child drop a piece of cheese on the airport floor, pick it up and then feed it to her father. Ew.
In honor of this ridiculous travel holiday and the highly caloric meal that follows it, Marc has agreed to do a Thanksgiving-themed Either/Or. I provide the subjects, he makes hasty and uninformed opinions. Everybody wins. Well, except the Indians.
Molly is birthday-ing in Georgia, which leaves me to man the blog all by myself for an entire week. What should I write about?
Here are some options:
1. Why Bruno wasn't funny
2. I could have sworn Walter Cronkite was already dead
3. Central Park exercise etiquette, or: why weekend cyclists are total dickslaps
4. If my 3-day-old Chinese food is still edible
5. If I should be amused or horrified by the fact that astronauts left discarded food containers on the moon.
6. The startling accuracy of the tagline to Lindsay Lohan's made-of-TV movie, Labor Pains
7. Why I'm pretty sure that this is Marc's fault
8. I keep wanting to write about polio so that I can tag every post "polio" and make this the most popular polio-related blog on the Internet, but Molly won't let me
9. The Willis Tower
10. My dog runs away from her own poop
Wherein Marc and I discuss our friendship, all of the women he has banged, and what we are going to do on our IMPENDING VACATION TOGETHER (along with like, 5 other people).
Marc: I can't believe you don't remember bonding over DMB!
Claire: i have zero memory of that
Claire: also i am at a loss as to how we became friends. heh.
Marc: I'm retracting my previous email
you're back to the bottom of the list
Claire: which is is not a bad thing. that's the best friendships, where you're like "annd….then 5 years happened"
Marc: "there was a summer, and then we bought pants. and he slept in the hallway of my dorm." Continue reading
Marc sent me a package in the mail yesterday and for once it wasn't covered in his own urine. So I'll be listening to his 2-CD set of jazz classics (which he kindly titled "The Education of a Fool") and I'll let you know what I think. Until then, Marc is going to tell you what HE thinks. That's right. It's time for this week's Either/Or with Marc.
The name Marc vs. the name Mark
First of all, I'm quite clearly better than anyone with the name Mark. With that said, my parents really dropped the ball on this one. After naming my brother Erik, not Eric, they decided to keep the trend alive with me. Or, my mom's side is French. You pick. Sure, it can be nice to be different and have an uncommon name. It can also be nice to not have your name misspelled your whole life. And that's not even your fault, it's mine for having a 'c' instead of a 'k'. Marc hasn't stopped anyone from calling me Marky Mark for 20 years and it did cause my 3rd grade teacher to call me a liar when I said my name wasn't actually Marcus. Give me that special K.
Claire's note: This is the saddest thing I've ever heard. I mean, after Darfur.
Marc is Claire's friend (as he so annoyingly reminds us below. barf) but I have taken over the question-asking this weekend, as Claire is too busy eating Mexican pork with her father. Here goes…
Detroit or Wall Street?
Marc: Detroit isn't much more than riots, poverty, cars and bad professional sports. Wall Street is known for money and greed, and plenty of both. Both of these entities share responsibility for the disposing of our economy, quite nicely I might add. Wall Street did it in such a slick, Gordon Gecko sort of way that you almost have to admire their complete lack of morals and utter sleaziness. Detroit on the other hand, well, it's hard to admire a city that burns itself down every six months. Motor City loses, like it always does.
Canada vs. Mexico Continue reading
Marc has opinions. These opinions are frequently wrong. Here are some of them.
Note: Claire and Molly will not be held accountable for anything he says. Unless it's funny or insightful, in which case we thought of it first.
Fat people vs. Gays
Well the obvious answer here is a very gay, very fat man. Foregoing that option though, the answer is clearly Gays. If we're going by stereotypes, which we obviously are, both of these groups are exceedingly jolly, often do well with beards and are typically found as the hilarious friend of a television or movie character. Celebrities include, but are not limited to, Homer Simpson, Doogie Howser, Dom DeLouise, John Waters, Santa Claus, Ellen DeGeneres, Notorious B.I.G. and Rosie O'Donnell, who bats for both teams. Gays come out on top though due to their delightful wit and generally immaculate fashion sense. The potential for slovenly behavior and 400 pound frequenters of Long John Silver's does not bode well for Team Fatso.
Never being able to say how you feel to the person you love vs. telling them, being rejected, and dying alone
This is basically dying on the inside vs. dying on the outside. I'd rather die on the outside and score pity points from many people, not to mention the opportunity to harbor a good grudge, which is always fun. The latter is the correct choice. Besides, if this person doesn't like me, how good could they possibly me? I'm better off without that loser.


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Reasoning To Belief: Feser's The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism — Part VI: Akin And Abortion After Rape
Stop in the name of the Law!
Read Part I, Part II, Part III, Part Interlude, Part IV, Part V, Part VI. Part Last.
Earlier this month, Missouri Congressman Todd Akin uttered these infamous words: "I know it wasn't rape-rape. It was something else but I don't believe it was rape-rape."
Oops, no. Sorry. Wrong quote. Those were actually the words of Whoopi Goldberg spoken in defense of convicted child rapist and film director Roman Polanksi. Goldberg was of the opinion that the little so-and-so (the 13-year-old girl, not Polanski), had it coming. Or something. The price Goldberg paid for her "slip" was exactly nil.
I have it now! What Akin said, in answer to a question of the abortion in the case of rape, was this:
Well you know, people always want to try to make that as one of those things, well how do you, how do you slice this particularly tough sort of ethical question. First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare. If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But let's assume that maybe that didn't work or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child.
Not a particularly fluid explanation, and a poor choice with legitimate. What Akin meant was that in the cases of, as Whoopi would put it, "rape-rape", a woman is less likely to become impregnated than if she has intercourse with her husband. And that even if she did become pregnant as a result of rape, "the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child." Because abortion is always wrong.
Incidentally, it is an empirical, not a moral, question whether a woman is less likely to become pregnant from a rape. The answer is therefore irrelevant to whether it is moral to kill the baby. As in irrelevant. Akin and his many critics, including those who should know better, forgot this. Nevertheless, here is a quotation from one doctor1, showing that Akin might not have been far wrong:
A 1988 textbook, the second edition of "Human Sex and Sexuality" by Edwin B. Steen and James H. Price, estimates a 2 percent pregnancy rate. A 2012 textbook, "Comprehensive Gynecology," 6th edition, gives an estimate of between 2 percent and 5 percent and states that "in the experience of most sexual assault centers, the chance of pregnancy occurring is quite low." Estimates depend on flawed methods, with inevitable biases. An experiment to give an accurate figure is, of course, impossible. And does the estimate really matter to the woman who has been raped? Either she gets pregnant, or she doesn't.
Another tidbit: the woman behind Roe v Wade, Norma McCorvey, who wanted women to legally kill their fetuses, testified to the Supreme Court of impregnations due to rape. She recanted in 1988 and said to the Senate2:
The affidavit submitted to the Supreme Court didn't happen the way I said it did, pure and simple. I lied! Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffey needed an extreme case to make their client look pitiable. Rape seemed to be the ticket. What made rape even worse? A gang rape! It all started out as a little lie, but my little lie grew and became more horrible with each telling.
One imagines (this was 1973) a young Al Sharpton taking notes. Anyway, back to Feser!
Natural law says rape is wrong. We all, at some level, acknowledge this when we say rape is wrong. And it is absolutely wrong, which means it is always wrong, regardless where and when people happen to be. It would be wrong even if a body of men made rape "legal"—say, in Hollywood, as long as the perpetrator had won one of: Oscar (earned or honorary), Emmy, Tony. A Golden Globe allows only groping.
But why is rape wrong? It is hardly an explanation to say, "Because natural law says it is." The question is: how do we arrive the morally true principle "rape is wrong" from natural law?
The "nature" of a thing, from an Aristotelian point of view, is, as we've seen, the form or essence it instantiates. Hence, once again to haul in my triangle example, it is of the essence, nature, or form of a triangle to have three perfectly straight sides. Notice that this remains true even if some particular triangle does not have three perfectly straight sides, and indeed even though…every material instance of a triangle has some defect or other. The point is that these are defects, failures to conform to the nature of essence of triangularity; the fact that such defective triangles exist in the natural world and in accordance with the laws of physics doesn't make them any less "unnatural" in the relevant sense.
To change one of Feser's example in a way I hope he approves of, suppose it were discovered that a gene or genes were associated with rapists: rapists have this gene or genes more often than do non-rapists. This empirical fact would not make rape "natural" or morally right. Nor would we suddenly attend "rapists pride" parades.
Nor would it be plausible to suggest that God "made [rapists]3 that way," any more than God 'makes' people to be born blind, deaf, armless, legless, prone to alcoholism, or autistic. God obviously allows these things, for whatever reason; but it doesn't follow that He positively wills them, and it certainly doesn't follow that they are "natural."…
In the same way, should it turn out that a desire to molest children has a genetic basis, no one would conclude from this that sexual attraction toward children is a good thing, even if the person who has it was able to satisfy his disgusting urges without actually touching any children…
Now I realize, of course, that many readers will acknowledge that we do in fact have these reactions, but would nevertheless write them off as mere reactions. "Our tendency to find something personally disgusting," they will sniff, "doesn't show that there is anything objectively wrong with it." This is the sort of stupidity-masquerading-as-insight that absolutely pervades modern intellectual life, as it has the same source as so many other contemporary intellectual pathologies…For we need to ask why there is a universal, or near universal, reaction of disgust to certain behaviors, and why certain traits count as unnatural even though there is a genetic factor underlying them.
Human beings "have a nature or essence, and the good for them, like the good for anything else, is defined in terms of this nature or essence." And the "good for us is in fact whatever tends to fulfill our nature or essence in the sense of realizing the natural ends or purposes of our various natural capacities." Doing what is good "may require a fight against one's desires and such a fight might in some cases be so extremely difficult and unpleasant that one might not have the stomach for it."
But can we derive an ought from an is? Yes.
[H]uman beings have a formal cause—their form, essence, or nature—and this formal cause entails certain final causes for their various capacities. So, for example, our nature or essence is to be rational animals, and reason or intellect has as its final cause the attainment of truth. Hence the attainment of truth is a good for us..[T]he sense of "good" in question here is a completely objective one, connoting, not some subjective preference we happen to have for a thing, but rather the conformity of a thing to a nature or essence as a kind of paradigm (the way that, again, a "good" triangle is just one which has perfectly straight sides…).
Given our capacities and the existence of formal causes, "what is good for human beings in the use of those capacities is to use them only in a way consistent with this final cause." And all this "remains true whatever the reason is for someone's desire to act in a way contrary to nature's purpose—whether simple intellectual error, habituated vice, genetic defect, or whatever—however strong that desire is." Including, of course, a desire to rape.
As Feser says, this "subject requires a book of its own." He only provides the barest sketch and covers only the most contentious areas. Nowhere does he, nor do I, for example, attempt to show, in complete detail, just why rape is wrong. He shows why abortion is wrong, even in the case of rape. It is the killing of a human life—in a, it hardly needs to be said, unnatural way.
1Disclosure: I met Dr Orient at the DPP conference where I was invited to speak.
2Interestingly, the linked article was written by a woman who was conceived in a rape.
3Feser used club feet as his example, not rapist. This is my change.
Read Part I, Part II, Part III, Part Interlude, Part IV, Part V, Part VI. Part Last.
28 thoughts on "Reasoning To Belief: Feser's The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism — Part VI: Akin And Abortion After Rape" Leave a comment ›
God obviously allows these things, for whatever reason; but it doesn't follow that He positively wills them
So God does/causes some things without intent and has "Oops" moments?
Notice that this remains true even if some particular triangle does not have three perfectly straight sides, and indeed even though — every material instance of a triangle has some defect or other. The point is that these are defects, failures to conform to the nature of essence of triangularity …
Of course, in no way, would it ever imply that one's concept of a triangle might be wrong. If what I see doesn't match my ideal it must be defective? And if you encounter someone who doesn't match your concept of right or wrong then they are obviously defective?
There may be many reasons for assigning right and wrong. Surely one can do better than an appeal to some ideal concept of humanity.
Dr. Briggs,
You stated that rape is absolutely wrong. You stated that abortion is "always wrong".
Do you hold that abortion is absolutely wrong?
If not, then you hold that there are circumstances where some greater wrong outweighs the wrong of abortion.
It would appear that God "allows" situations to exist where we can only choose the lesser of the two wrongs, which it seems includes killing babies.
If a person created this dilemma (having to choose between killing a baby or else doing something worse), we would rightfully call him a monster.
How then is God not a monster?
It's mesmerizing to find out that the very same person from whom you have learned to be wary of overcertainty in scientific studies, is convinced that God's existence can be proved…
If not, then you hold that there are circumstances where some greater wrong outweighs the wrong of abortion.
That doesn't follow at all…to quote from the post:
Natural law says rape is wrong. We all, at some level, acknowledge this when we say rape is wrong. And it is absolutely wrong, which means it is always wrong, regardless where and when people happen to be.
Replace 'rape' with abortion, and you have the same thing going on. There's no "outweighing" going on…rape and abortion are both intrinsically immoral acts, and are equal in that respect.
It would appear that God "allows†situations to exist where we can only choose the lesser of the two wrongs, which it seems includes killing babies.
? Who is choosing "the lesser of two wrongs"? The one is choosing to either rape or not, and the other is choosing to abort a child or not.
It's mesmerizing to find out that the very same person from whom you have learned to be wary of overcertainty in scientific studies, is convinced that God's existence can be proved…
Interestingly, overcertainty in scientific studies is a result of giving the quality of metaphysical demonstration to scientific arguments; and undercertainty of God's existence comes from giving the quality of scientific arguments to what is meant as a metaphysical demonstration…
I see that the occasionalist (look it up, folks) theologians are already here. Suffice it to say that Aquinas's God does not personally determine every event. The idea of "secondary causes" is what allows this to work. If God personally determined everything–including evil–, then how could he be called anything but a tyrant?
Glad to be of assistance.
For those interested in (dense) reading material on the importance, nature and possibility of secondary causality, I recommend this piece from David Bentley Hart: http://www.scribd.com/doc/87859758/David-Bentley-Hart-Impassibility-and-Transcendence-on-the-Infinite-Innocence-of-God.
Personally I would take the word abortion mostly out of the discussion. Murder is absolutely wrong. However, the intentional killing of another human is not always murder, for example: self defense (justifiable homicide).
I would apply this reasoning to abortion. Abortion is sometimes, but not always murder. In the case of a pregnancy where niether mother nor fetus can survive the pregnancy, the fetus can not be saved in any case and the mother can only be saved by killing the fetus abortion would not be murder.
Re: oops moments. I believe you would agree there is a difference between allowing and positively willing.
Yes, I do, but this is God we are discussing.
If I implement a design that did something I didn't intend then that's because I have shortcomings in complex foresight. However, if I were able to foresee the consequences, wouldn't allowing them to stand signify intent to implement them?
God can't foresee the consequences of God's Own actions? Hard to see how "Evil" hasn't been designed-in if God is All-Knowing and just allowed it. Or is God not All-Knowing?
As far as "secondary cause", how is it any different than pulling the trigger of a functional, loaded gun with the safety off then claiming you didn't intend for the gun to fire? Wouldn't you counter instead that all events between the pulling of the trigger up to and including the ejection of a bullet were intended even if not directly specified or supervised? What does the supervision of every event have to do with anything if you've ultimately caused it and knew it would happen?
Maybe the Aquinas explanation is just another variant of "God moves in Mysterious Ways" which answers nothing but mostly implies: "Don't ask"? Kinda like my mother's response to hard questions: "because" — but with obfuscation.
Anyway, this is what I tried to embody in "oops moment" which effectively is: "Huh? I didn't intend that!"
Could it be God doesn't really care about some things? If so, why should we?
Is asking for the elevator speech too much instead of saying the equivalent of Aquinas waved his hands and solved the problem? It's not very good argument or explanation. Oblique references might be fine in Theology 503 but a bit out of place here. If you can't summarize it, you probably don't understand it.
I see the new and improved edit box. It grows! Yay!
And now it's gone.
Nice try. Maybe you can get it back.
As far as "secondary causeâ€, how is it any different than pulling the trigger of a functional, loaded gun with the safety off then claiming you didn't intend for the gun to fire? Wouldn't you counter instead that all events between the pulling of the trigger up to and including the ejection of a bullet were intended even if not directly specified or supervised? What does the supervision of every event have to do with anything if you've ultimately caused it and knew it would happen?
Maybe the Aquinas explanation is just another variant of "God moves in Mysterious Ways†which answers nothing but mostly implies: "Don't ask� Kinda like my mother's response to hard questions: "because†— but with obfuscation.
Hey, look–it's DAV, pontificating in ignorance. No need to read the material before posting, that's for sure!
Dr. Briggs,
Ethically, the correct decision to take, is the action that is the least wrong.
If an action is always-wrong, while there is no context where it is right. Regardless of this, given a choice of actions, the always-wrong action may not be the least wrong action available.
If an action is absolutely wrong, then there is no other action that can be more wrong.
The case where an absolutely wrong action can be ethically be taken is if one must choose between two absolutely wrong actions.
If I read your response correctly (and if I am using the same meanings as you are) then I think you take both abortion and losing the life of a mother to both be absolutely wrong.
However, my main point has to do with whether God is worthy of intellectual defense. (Please keep in mind that these questions, while frank, are intended to be respectful of your readers' various beliefs; I may be treading into areas that faith-based theists may consider settled.)
It seems to me that there are those theists that have found God through rational means (of which I include belief, or "educated guessing"), and those who have found God through faith.
My question is restricted to rational explanations of God.
It would appear that God, as you described Him, sets us up to only fail. God grants us the ability to appreciate right, and aspire to do right things, but presents us with an existence of choosing between a always-wrong actions, and occasionally absolutely-wrong actions.
If a human being were to force us to make these choices, we would call this behavior evil and we would despise and reject him.
My question: Is there a rational reason to hold God to a lesser ethical standard than a human? If not, why can't we rationally demand the same behavior of God than we can of each other?
A side issue that in your earlier essays on your discussion of Aquinas's First Way (which I regret I could not participate), you accepted his assertion that there must be a First Actuality, instead of an infinite series of actions. The infinite series interpretation was rejected (in your essay and in the discussion thread) but without explanation. My guess is that Aquinas assumed (perhaps for the sake of illustration) atomicity in actions. However if the observable universe is infinitely divisible, then actions are not atomic, and every instant can consist of the infinite series of actions. Hence the First Actuality interpretation becomes unnecessary (not necessarily false, just not required). Is there an error in this alternate analysis?
A second side issue has to do with the nature of God. Since He is outside the space-time of our universe, He (presumably) experiences our universe all at once. He is well aware of the effects of his actions as Prime Mover, so must be indifferent to any human suffering that results. One explanation for this is that He must value our free will more than our suffering. As a father, I do not value my children's freedom above their suffering. Is God a poorer father than I am?
Again, what I am looking for are any classical rational resolutions to these questions. If I have made any error in fact, scope, assumption, or analogy, please let me know.
Type correction to my previous post: "If an action is always-wrong, then there is no context where it is right."
Thank you for the 'ethical' formulation; even Dr. Briggs fails to distinguish between Moral and Ethical, occasionally.
in twitter sidebar, typo:
Romney, not Romey.
A rape pregnancy rate of 2%, or 2% to 5%, that is more than twice as much . And the figure is not relevant without the consensual pregnancy rate.
And what is this Natural Law? Something next to this God? Or a different name for an aspect of this God?
Anyway, with the Christian one, you can always ask for forgiveness, both for the rape and the pregnancy. Which makes the discussion a bit academic as it will turn out that neither action has long term consequences (long term, as in the afterlife).
Is asking for the elevator speech too much instead of saying the equivalent of Aquinas waved his hands and solved the problem? It's not very good argument or explanation. Oblique references might be fine in Theology 503 but a bit out of place here. If you can't summarize it, you probably don't understand it.
aka "TL;DR"
I love these formulations from people claiming to be fans of science, which would end up disproving science as well. i.e. "If you can't summarize [Quantum Mechanics], you probably don't understand it." (add your own!)
If anything, those of actual learning realize that the more you understand something, the HARDER it is to summarize because one then ends up either 1) making use of a lot of terms and references that were created for the express use of summarizing that are actually oblique to those without the requisite background knowledge or 2) trying to give the requisite background knowledge and end up in a long rant just trying to get the listener up to point that most introductory students start at.
OR: DAV, stop blaming others for your ignorance.
regarding your side issue (first way). I struggled myself.
Let's try it with the motion of the waves of the sea. (This is a new experiment for me). The movement of the water depends on the winds. The winds depend in their turn on warmth and warmth is sustained by the action of the sun. And now you may speculate further or simply say: It is through God that we actually have a sun, causing actual warmth on earth, causing actual winds, causing actual waves.
Even if you were to speculate further, you must acknowledge beforehand that the series must end with something actually causing something. If it must end, then the last in line must be it's own cause, hence a first mover. If it does not end, nothing is actually caused and hence there are no waves, no winds, no warmth, no sun, no nothing.
So the next time you are enjoying the sight of the sea, think about it that it is God who is extending his power through all his proxies to your leisure. I love that thought.
The price Goldberg paid for her "slip†was exactly nil"
Irrelevancy overload! So, society accepted her cruelty because of liberal media bias, her race (an argument could be made that most, if not all, African Americans who are of mixed blood and slave descent are the product of forcible rape), or sex (woman have a a prejudice themselves about the definition of rape -anecdotally, I once had a woman tell me hers was a "stranger rape", as if it was somehow she felt less at fault?).
For we need to ask why there is a universal, or near universal, reaction of disgust to certain behaviors, and why certain traits count as unnatural even though there is a genetic factor underlying them
Feser is failing to reason: his assumption is that there is a direct genetic expression and not vestigial. It is possible that we have dormant genes that find new purpose (a gene recycling)? It possibly could explain the mastery of art, science, our collective disgust reaction, or even deviant behavior. The question is how they are triggered -nature or nurture?
Just a few notes — all of which highlight the importance of using words appropriate to the issue discussed rather than inventing words, or new meanings for words usually used elsewhere. Knowing the subject, and the jargon that goes with it, avoids a lot of problems.
"RAPE" — there's many ways to define it, but in legal jargon there are two types: 1) statutory, which is by mutual consent but in which one party is legally obligated not to engage in the act anyway, and 2) forcible, which is self-explanatory. NOTE that even president Obama, a lawyer, has gone on record to the effect (if not exactly) that 'rape is rape' — well…not really becuase "rape" not further defined includes a LOT of consenting acts.
"ODDS OF SUCCESSFUL IMPREGNATION" — ALWAYS pretty low; 2% to 5% (or whatever) from any encounter. Given that, and that the vast majority of pregnancies occur from consensual encounters, the number/proportion by forcible rape (no doubt what was meant by the oddball term "legitimate" rape) is necessarily very small.
So, the hullaballoo — especially from the liberal element of society — about what Akin said hinges on semantics first, and nitpicking about odds of pregnancy & the dubious remark about bodily functions that might work to impede pregnancy–a factor Akin remarked on and then even dismissed as being particularly relevant….
….to point out that the emphasis should be on not punishing an unborn child, which involves issues of high significance & personal values.
Liberals, to avoid addressing the value of children, applied their usual switcheroo of shifting debate & attention to points that aren't really significant or even germaine to the issue Akin addressed.
And much, maybe all, of that would have been avoided if he had chosen his words better.
That's a lesson for us all.
Abortion is a special case of killing…just like the morality of abortion is determined, in part, on the motive for the abortion (e.g. defective fetus guaranteed to die shortly after childbirth or even sooner, etc.).
Since killing other humans is "moral" under some circumstances, presumably killing a fetus, a special case of killing, is moral under some circumstances.
"God" is cited–but without definition; and that is very significant as what "God" means & values & has conveyed to humanity is so radically different from one sect/denomination to another as to render that reference ambiguous, at best.
However, the usual meanings attributed to "God" include "free will" by practicioners. That includes the choice to sin. Murder/killing is regulated by society, with or without a reference to "God" or "God's will" to the extent such regulation is needed for society.
But to what extent is regulation needed for an abortion, especially were the circumstances are such that reasonable people disagree?
If "God" or "God's will" is cited for intervening, by denying the ability to get an abortion, does that leave the person involved "better" from a moral perspective?
Put another way, does taking away the opportunity to "sin" (if that's how its viewed), taking away the element of free will, lead to more morality? If so, then by that standard some of the most morally upright people are in maximum security prison cells.
Also, invoking "God" in some form is commonly done and carries with it the implicit theme that God needs some people to intervene & control others for their benefit. But that's nowhere evident in any of the major faiths. In fact, exactly the opposite is clearly established — the faithful must choose to be faithful and act accordingly of their own free will. There's no provision overt or implied about putting them in some sort of social box to prevent misbehavior.
Thus, invoking "God" to impose a limit on free will to force moral behavior is inconsistent with everything we know, from all major faiths & their denominations, about how "God" is said to operate.
Which means there's a corruption in the application of "God" going one here.
For we need to ask why there is a universal, or near universal, reaction of disgust to certain behaviors, and why certain traits count as unnatural even though there is a genetic factor underlying them
If there is a universal form of men and we grasp it and we apply it to our particular being, a desire is born to "improve our sloppy lines†(as if we were triangles). If this ideal lives strongly within our souls, we develop disgust and joy accordingly. If we do not do so, we simply acquire the appetites of society as it is now. Your constitution may be prone to certain appetites over others, but that just throws a little variation into the mix.
So, if you are an optimist, you can look for the general likes and dislikes for moral orientation:)
Nate Winchester,
"Too complicated to summarize" is the refuge of the wannabes and hand-wavers and other "Holders of Secret Knowledge". In the Unix world they are the first to shout RTFM. YOS, for example, does a reasonable job but he's likely a professional writer. Look at hos posts for hints.
In any case, I am more interested on the poster's take and understanding — not his/her source's viewpoint. Telling someone to go read Aquinas, Aristotle, etc. without summarizing and/or narrowing the search; parroting; and things like "go learn philosophy" 1) comes across as appeal to authority, name-dropping and posturing and 2) is uninformative.
I notice you were able to summarize your life's philosophy here in just one sentence — but then, it's not very complicated, is it?
Explains your good-natured humor.
rank sophist,
pontificating in ignorance
Ain't it clever how I did that with question marks after my proclamations? Talk about pompous and dogmatic! Thank you for your answer. Informative as we have come to expect without a hint of rancor or condescension. Good job.
🙂 that's what I would call an Oops moment. I now regret not stating my evaluation of Hawking's argument "in just one sentence".
"Too complicated to summarize†is the refuge of the wannabes and hand-wavers and other "Holders of Secret Knowledgeâ€. In the Unix world they are the first to shout RTFM. YOS, for example, does a reasonable job but he's likely a professional writer. Look at hos posts for hints.
Heh, well touche. Since my day job is spent with a lot of computers, so I'm quite sympathetic to "RTFM" (or RTFC as they say in gaming lingo).
And yes, YOS is a professional writer, but then he's doing what I mentioned as part 2) having to recover old ground that most intros cover.
Telling someone to go read Aquinas, Aristotle, etc. without summarizing and/or narrowing the search; parroting; and things like "go learn philosophy†1) comes across as appeal to authority, name-dropping and posturing and 2) is uninformative.
Now to be fair, all of these posts have been almost nothing but summarizing and narrowing the search by pointing out intro texts, or even linking to Ed's blog which is chock full of philosophy and intro stuff.
I notice you were able to summarize your life's philosophy here in just one sentence — but then, it's not very complicated, is it?
Don't confuse my life's fandom with philosophy now. 😉
Hopefully, we can put our back-biting behind us (no pun intended).
Don't confuse my life's fandom with philosophy now.
fair enough.
Back from holidays and I can already see that the God party is long gone now. Oh well, and I did have so much fun with this philosophy of inventing categories and characteristics and drawing out "God" from under the concept's carpet and call it a "proof", with the ironic funny twist of thus proclaiming the new atheists as "silly". Monty Python wouldn't have done it better, mr Briggs, so I thank you for that.
Regarding the current subject, I am still amazed that you derive that rape is "wrong" from the "nature" of the human species and so on. If rape is absolutely, definitely, amazingly "WRONG", then how is it that it was so well condoned by the Bible itself in the times of the hebreus? Watch carefully how the reasoning that these were "primitive" people does not matter one jolt, if morals are to be absolute. As far as I can tell the holy ten commandments do not include "RAPE" as a sin, rather it admonishes us to not do such sinful things as proclaiming the LORD's name in vain, or to hold him dear, or to not work on saturdays. Because clearly, that's a much bigger problem than rape.
It must be. God implied so.
Rape is a particularly vile form of physical assault (except statutory rape or rape of a man by a woman, which seem to require some voluntary assistance, and are more legal definitions than just physical assault). The basis for any form of violent assault being "wrong" is the absolute fact that your rights stop at the boundary of others rights. You can call "rights" god given or just the necessary requirement for practical civilization to exist, but they are necessary. By these definition, taxes not agreed to by the vast majority, or rules not agreed to by the vast majority, such as redistribution of wealth by legal force, are illegal.
By these definition, taxes not agreed to by the vast majority, or rules not agreed to by the vast majority, such as redistribution of wealth by legal force, are illegal.
You assume that legality comes from popularity. Even Mr Briggs is capable of seeing through that inanity.
Please give me the basis for legality if it does not come from popularity. I did not say what is right, I said what is legal. Often what is legal is not right. Slavery is an example.


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