text:
Appointed by Pope Benedict on December 6 as Archbishop of Warsaw, Stanislaw Wielgus resigns just before special 'ingress' ceremony this morning.
Watching on TV now it looks like a wedding where all the guests turn up only to discover it's a funeral. President Lech Kaczynski is sitting in his pew with the wife. The whole of Poland's political and religious establishment is there.
It's like some sick reality TV show. Big Brother at prayer.
Archbishop Wielgus, thought proven to have been spying for the communist authorities over a period of 20 years, is there, humiliated. After all, only on Friday he made a statement saying: "I damaged the church. I denied the facts of this collaberation."
This contradicts previous statements he has made before denying any collaberation with the Communists.
Case closed then, surly?
But when the resignation was read out in the Cathedral this morning most of the congregation started shouting and chanting in protest. I have never seen anger in a Church before.
Then top Polish Catholic, Cardinal Glemp stands up to say a few words. But if the government – which will be defined in the history books for its relentless, ruthless vetting of public officials for collaboration with the communist regime – thought Glemp would be making some kind of apologetic statement on behalf of Wielgus, were in for a bit of a shock.
Cardinal Glemp said that 'Today we have seen a 'court' where the evidence against amounts to Xerox copies of copies of copies of old documents. The case for the defense has not been put. We do not want this type of court.'
When he said these words applause rang throughout the cathedral. It seems that the Polish Church thinks that Wielgus – who admitted lying on Friday after a month long hounding by the media, by historians, by the government – thinks that he has been the victim of a witch hunt. Glemp seems to think that the government's vetting process in this case has not been fair. Much of his flock appears to agree with him.
Someone in the Church shouts out 'Stay with us…'
What looked to be the end of the matter seems to be only the start. Some in the Church now have joined a growing number who think that the 'vetting culture' here has turned into a frenzy of recrimination, of revenge, where innocent victims get caught up in the craziness (though as has been pointed out in the comments below, the irony is that Radio Maryja listeners - who have done as much to create this culture of revenge as anyone - are complaining the loudest. They are saying that the incriminating documents were leaked by someone who was in the communist secret services trying to screw the catholic Church..).
Revenge is the motive for much of what is happening today - not justice. I have seen at close hand a completely innocent person get caught up in this, accused of collaboration, of being 'a Red'. It's not pretty, it's not fair, it's not civilized, it's not justice.
Sick, old Cardinal Glemp himself will now stay on in the role of Archbishop of Warsaw until they can find someone else who has no skeletons – real or imagined – in his closet.
Crowds are standing in the rain outside the Cathedral, chanting, protesting. Strange times in Poland get stranger still.
Sunday, January 07, 2007
'Red Priest' resigns, but the Church fights back
Posted by beatroot at 1/07/2007
Labels: lustration
76 comments:
And yet if he had not been a collaborator, then what possible motive would he have had for admitting so? None, so far as I can see.
I'll have to disagree with any sentiment that seedy church leaders ought not be publicly revealed as the dangerous collaborators with the communist regimes who put them into power that they were. He's not going to jail over it; there's no need for tears. But it does, generally speaking, seem high time the high and mighty take their turn to fall from grace just a little bit. For liars who pretend to be agents of moral authority, I'd say there is a small bit of justice in having the crown of worms tarnished. - 2:14 pm
beatroot, I find it amazing that you still don't understand Poland. But maybe this is because Poland is impossible to understand...
You see, the Polish church is not monolithic. So in this case, there was a group denying the accusations, comprised mainly of Radio Maryja and its followers and a (probably larger) group believing the accusations were substantiated (or at least worth investigating). Unfortunately the hierarchy uncritically pushed for ingress, polarizing the church members. So as a result, the cathedral was mainly filled with Wielgus' supporters, resulting in what you saw.
Cardinal Glemp was right that Wielgus was treated unfairly -- but then, the whole situation was caused by the hierachy uncritically pushing the case forward instead of investigating the rumors.
This what happened wasn't very nice, but the outcome is not very bad; it can be even viewed as a positive event. Having an agent of an anti-Church institution in the position of a top moral authority would probably cause a much greater harm to the Church. - 3:04 pm
- beatroot said...
Maybe this is a point you will never understand.
In today's Poland, whether Wielgus is guilty or innocent is not nearly as important as how guilt or innocence is established.
Justice is a process
As Glemp was saying this morning when someone is accused of something as important and career defining as this then you have on the one hand the accusations, the prosecution; then you have the defense; then you have a body independent of both that comes to an objective and independent decision.
This has clearly not been the case here.
At lower levels of Polish society people are wlaking into work in the morning and suddenly being accused of being 'a red' a 'communist fossil'…and that's it: career over.
In a country that is a mature democracy an allegation would be made, a defense set up and then an adjudication independent of both accuser and accused would be made.
This is not happening in Poland today.
In the old days someone would be branded a 'counter revolutionary', a 'Zionist' and that was it. Nobody expected an independent and fair decision under communism because it was, well, communism.
And then Poland became a 'democracy' with due process of law and an independent process of justice.
Except it hasn't – what it has at the moment is victor's justice – just like in the bad old commie days.
And you don't need to lecture me on the difference between the Radio Maryja radicals and the Established Church in Poland. Glemp, as part of the Established Church, showed today that he is aware of what a civilized method of justice looks like. Maryja hasn't a clue. - 4:13 pm
The Church is not, for better or for worse, a democracy.
The guy resigned. He admitted his guilt.
Glemp et. al. screwed up in pushing for his appointment without thoroughly investigating the almost-Bishop's past. Too late now for Glemp to insist upon unfairly convicting the guy. He admitted his guilt. He be gone.
Meanwhile, the Radio Maria folks are vengeful fascistic turds.
What's so hard to understand about all this? - 4:43 pm
- sonia said...
This is a good exemple of how the plague of Communism spreads even to its avowed opponents. Like McCarthyism, it's a case of the Bolshevik paranoia reproducing itself in a sort of perpetuum mobile.
The important thing isn't whether Wielgus WAS a Communist sympatizer. The question is whether he IS one now... I don't care if he spied for Jarzelski. I wan to know what he thinks about Chavez...
There cannot be a just process in such circumstances. Just like under a revolution, accusation of sympathy with ancienne regime becomes a political weapon, in a post-Communist reality, accusation of collaboration with the Communist becomes a political weapon as well.
Glemp's speech might be, I hope, the 'Have You No Shame?' moment that finally brought McCarthy down... The moment when democracy and liberalism finally overcomes the Communist earthquake and its post-Communist aftershocks... - 4:48 pm
- beatroot said...
Process is important. In fact, that is all Justice is. Look at the symbol for justice - that women with a pair of scales in her hand. Those scales represent the process and balance of Justice. If the worngs of communism are to be fought then they should be fought through its nemisis - Justice and Freedom.
- 4:51 pm
- beatroot said...
And Geez
The guy resigned. He admitted his guilt.
But this part of my point. In what context did he admit his guilt? This is very much part of the idea of Justice. When a confession comes after torture the confession is not sound. When a confession comes in the face of a media and political firestorm then that confession must be suspect too.
As I say, whether he is guilty or not is not the most relevant thing here. It's how that verdict is produced that is important in a modern society. - 4:56 pm
But the Church cannot be equated, and isn't often by secular minded folk, with modern society, BR.
Bennie and the Vaticaners should have done their homework first instead of acting like the good ol' boys network they are before rushing the appointment of an old chum.
You're right though that there should have been more attention to process, justice and freedom from the get-go. That is before he received his appointment. Unfortunately, Church folk, especially leaders, have more than their share of foibles.
And some folks might even rejoin the Church if the leadership becomes completely fascist. Go figure. - 5:07 pm
When a confession comes in the face of a media and political firestorm then that confession must be suspect too.
Yes, but who caused the firestorm? The church hierarchy, indiscriminately pushing forward Wielgus' candidature. The case surfaced around Dec. 21. They should have postponed the ingress, formed a tribunal, ask IPN for files and judge the case -- there was enough time for that. But no... they called it an attack against the church and pushed forward anyway. And they are reaping what they sawn.
Besides, Wielgus was asked by the media about his involvement with SB. He denied. That satisifies due process for me -- unless you are expecting the media to organize a formal trial for him? This was the job of his colleagues, who have failed it miserably.
Anyway, his SB file is on the web, his statements as well. Judge for yourself.
Next, I really like your insight, but I don't really understand while you are mixing Kaczyńskis with that. Due to the nature of catholicism (and particularly the form and nature of the confession sacrament) it is required for the priests to be trustworthy persons; even moreso for the bishops. An SB collaborator is by definion not trustworthy and thus all the upheaval. When Isakowicz-Zalewski unearthed SB agents among the ordinary priests, it caused a relatively big storm -- so big in fact, that his book with evidence still hasn't been published. Now we have an alleged SB agent in bishop's rank. This is very serious.
So, I will reiterate: it is better that this nomination has been stopped, even in this indeed very unfortunate way. - 5:47 pm
- michael farris said...
If I'm not mistaken he's maintained that his meetings with SB agents netted the SB no useful information and did no direct harm to anyone.
Is there evidence that he actually 'informed' on anyone in the sense that most rational people would understand the term (ie give names and information to the SB that allowed them to more effectively repress people?)
Meetings with SB representatives were pretty much unavoidable for lots of people who wanted to travel or study abroad and who held or wanted to hold any kind of responsible position.
Maybe he's a lying snake who maliciously informed on colleagues and maybe he's guilty of no more than wanting to broaden his horizons. The current atmosphere in Poland makes establishing the truth pretty much impossible.
If lustration cannot be carried out in a fair, transparent manner (which this nor any other media-based event has been) then it's not worth the effort. - 6:10 pm
I feel that the Bishop was pushed by the Vatican rather than deciding for himself to resign.He has not shown himself to be honourable now or in the Communist Polish past.And PIS still support the church wrong whatever-this is a form of fascism in church and state-run for those in power ,not those they are supposed to serve and support-namely The Polish People.
- 6:15 pm
- beatroot said...
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- 6:48 pm
- beatroot said...
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- 6:49 pm
- beatroot said...
They should have postponed the ingress, formed a tribunal, ask IPN for files and judge the case -- there was enough time for that. But no... they called it an attack against the church and pushed forward anyway. And they are reaping what they sawn.
You are correct there. In fact, because these accusations have a criminal nature then a Court of law would be the best place. But more time is what the whole thing needed…
The current atmosphere in Poland makes establishing the truth pretty much impossible.
That's what is soo depressing. You can imagine when another government comes in – and with the basic structure still the same as it has always been – they are going to put their own cronies in place and go after all the people that are now persecuting them, (and other innocent people who are getting caught up in all this).
And round we go again. How can the state develop in those circumstances? - 6:50 pm
- michael farris said...
I can't help but wonder (in my endless cynicism) how this might hurt the ducks.
Lech was seen applauding the resignation letter (a tasteless gesture) and then stopped when he realized that there were more supporters than detractors of Wielgus in the church. And then Glemp indirectly came out strongly against the applauders (indirectly criticising Lech who doesn't have a history of dealing with criticism well). I really wish someone had taken Lech's picture during Glemp's homily. - 7:12 pm
- beatroot said...
I really wish someone had taken Lech's picture during Glemp's homily.
That was exactly what I noticed!!! I was watching on TVP (TVN 24 were showing the pictures but had people in the studio commenting about it - which was crap. But while the homily was on the camera switched to Wielgus for reaction shot, then back to Glemp and then to anyone BUT Kaczynski.
His face would have sais a thousand words...
But the director either missed it, or more likely at the moment, TVP were told not to do that. - 7:18 pm
- beatroot said...
I changed the post slightly in light of comments. I chuck this stuff up verrry quickly, so I am sometimes not as clear as I should be.
The main change is in this bit:
Some in the Church now have joined a growing number who think that the 'vetting culture' here has turned into a frenzy of recrimination, of revenge, where innocent victims get caught up in the craziness (though as has been pointed out in the comments below, the irony is that Radio Maryja listeners - who have done as much to create this culture of revenge as anyone - are complaining the loudest. They are saying that the incriminating documents were leaked by someone who was in the communist secret services trying to screw the catholic Church..).
'Vetting culture'…has overwhelmed this country. And it is not being carried out in a just manner. I am not supporting Wielgus – as I am not 'supporting' Simon Mol in the previous posts. I am supporting a transparent and fair process of investigating people's past. Otherwise the process is meaningless.
In the future I am going to change text in the posts after comments – if comments are correct. I think that is a cool way of writing a blog! It makes it more collaborative. I will always indicate when I do this. - 8:22 pm
In fact, because these accusations have a criminal nature then a Court of law would be the best place.
Huh? Collaboration with SB is not a criminal act. It was strictly a matter of morals and ethics. Unless of course you mean suing the papers for defamation... - 8:31 pm
- beatroot said...
I am sure that lawyers could find all sorts of legal angles to this.
What is the legal status of a tribunal? Poland is tribunal crazy. Whatever the form of judgment it should have a legal basis, with real power and independence and based on the Polish constitution. - 8:47 pm
Wielgus's guilt is not at issue here (perhaps the extent of collaboration), by the findings of the church commission, Poland's Institute of National Remembrance and his own admission there no basis for suggesting innocence.
The idea that lustration is the root of the problem is grotesque; the church is exempt by law from this process. The promotion of Wielgus to highest clerical office in Poland was strictly a church affair, which the hierarchy of the church screwed up beyond recognition. One can only imagine how infuriated the Pope must be for being led down the garden path.
The news media preformed the exact roll it should have in a democratic society, it informed the public and brought to public's attention a serious matter.
The government in the person of President Lech Kaczynski, attending the cathedral ceremony, clapped after Wielgus announced his resignation. Like him or not he was consistent with his position on collaborators.
Wielgus in the last few days was completely irresponsible, he put his own interests ahead of the nation and the church. Wielgus said he talked with Poland's secret police in the communist era out of a lack of ``prudence, courage and determination,'' and because he had wanted to continue his academic studies. After that public statement, resignation was the only option left.
The attempt to appoint Wielgus to this high office was a slap in the face of the overwhelming majority of the clergy who are recognized by the people as pious and patriotic not to mention memory of those martyred in Poland's struggle against the nazis and communists.
One can only lament, the church that produced great churchman and patriots like Cardinal Wyszyński and John Paul II would find itself descending to depth of publicly soiling itself with the likes of Wielgus. - 9:00 pm
- beatroot said...
Yeah, but can't you put this whole thing in the context of the frenzy of diging in to someone's past?
I am not supporting any side here -and it used to be so easy to identify the BAD GUYS - atheist commies and liberals with no morals...and now it has become about the Church Establishment - I am calling for the end to this frenzy. Maryja helped create this process and now they don't like it. Which is darkly ironical.
So trying to seperate what is going on the Catholic Church in Poland misses the point about the vetting culture here.... which tries to justify itself as being good and pure by hounding the ghosts of the past in a way that the commies did. That is not a credible way to behave. - 9:10 pm
Beetroot said: "the vetting culture here.... which tries to justify itself as being good and pure"
Had the Catholic Church been included in the vetting law a fiasco of this magnitude would not have occurred. He would have declared himself a collaborator (or face consequences for lying to the court) and it would have been over (yes his career progression stops there). But no they insisted to be exempt and look at the damage.
The church has a history of denial and cover up when they screw up; it's a knee-jerk reaction to protect the institution. Before this story broke they shut down there own internal research on this matter of collaboration, why because the magnitude of the problem put them into a state of shock. They felt they could mange this in private.
The church by trying to cover and deny the truth generated the very disaster they disparately tried to avoid. - 10:15 pm
BR wrote: Maryja helped create this process and now they don't like it. Which is darkly ironical.
Now this really is strange and hard to explain. I was looking at a BBC photo of the protesters outside the church and they looked like the mohair beret ladies but I thought they were against the almost-bishop. Now sure enuff, you've revealed it was them protesting in his behalf. And I thought they hated Glemp for criticizing Rydzik and Radio Maria. - 10:17 pm
- beatroot said...
Exactly. I think, in this case, they think he is being set up by the ex-Commies....which is possible.
But in most cases they are for chasing the commies out of public life here with a zealotry common to the times... - 11:00 pm
The vetting process is not a form prosecution and penalty. It's to bring into public light those who collaborated with the SB thereby preventing these people from assuming certain positions no longer appropriate for them to hold. Secondly if not more importantly removing the potential for blackmail of people in key positions in both in government and society at large.
Beetroot said: "Maryja helped create this process and now they don't like it. Which is darkly ironical."
Perhaps by changing their tune they're buying themselves some relief from the any future attempts to bring them into line with the mainstream church. They could have used their media empire to destroy him instead they used him as leverage. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory. - 11:35 pm
all over Europe all former communist sympathizers need to be flushed out for their support of this murderous system.
Communism (100 million killed) was worse than fascism (20 million killed) - 11:42 pm
Such an attempt at numerical comparison only demonstrates that the fascists always got their asses kicked by the allies (including the commies)and thus had less time and opportunity to kill.
But even these numbers are way off. How many Russians were killed in WWII by fascists? - 12:09 am
Also, JanNowak ---
Doesn't it seem more like the Radio Maryja folk are trying to be more mainstream or at least more accepted by the mainstream within the context of the Church by agreeing with Glemp? - 12:13 am
- michael farris said...
"Doesn't it seem more like the Radio Maryja folk are trying to be more mainstream or at least more accepted by the mainstream within the context of the Church by agreeing with Glemp?"
RM wants the mainstream to come to them, not vice versa.
As far as I can tell, there's a _high_ degree of cognitive dissonance among the RM supporters.
They like(d?) the ducks because of their emphasis on conservative social values and commitment to limit scary free market economics and pledge to defend pensions.
They never have necessarily shared the ducks' passion for lustration (and behind their pious exterior, many of them know first hand how hard it was to live in that period without some... compromises they probably don't want to ever come to light) and PiS did not campaign heavily on lustration either.
In other words, RM listeners are simultaneously liable to blame 'communists' (never defined) for anything and everything that goes wrong now while simultaneously longing for the stability and (nostigically enhanced) security and better manners of those times. Like I said, cognitive dissonance.
They're also liable to view Wielgus's past as an internal church affair. That is, if his superiors in the church express faith in him, they assume he's been vetted internally and if he's (now) clean enough for Glemp (which he apparently was) then that's that.
The real crisis here isn't so much in the church (though that's obviously important) but between the hardcore "let's get back at the commies no matter where they are" crowd and the "what happens in the church stays in the church" crowd.
The duck has publicly put himself in the camp of the former. It will be interesting to see how RM reacts to the ducks now (Lech may come to regret that applause). - 6:55 am
OK, that makes as much sense as it can I spoze. Thanks for the post, Michael Farris.
- 11:35 am
Radio Maryja is going to think very carefully before it sticks it to the Ducks, both the Ducks and Radio Maryja need each other.
But the boat has been rocked for the church hierarchy, Radio Maryja and the Ducks.
There will be a period of uncertainty. A new Archbishop of Warsaw will now be selected likely under the close supervision of the Vatican. Dealing with the SB collaborators may no longer be something the church can do completely in private.
The Vatican may use this opportunity to strengthen its hand against Radio Maryja.
It is likely the Pope ordered Wielgus to resign; Cardinal Glemp's comments at the service were truly an interesting interpretation of the rule of Papal Infallibility. You would think after Glemp screwed this up beyond recognition he would show some humility. - 6:46 pm
It does seem that the ultimate screw-up in pushing Wielgus forward can be attributed to Glemp. It is mighty difficult for me to believe, though, that Bennie did not know *anything* about Wielgus's collaboration until too late, according to that Vatican spokesman being quoted all over today. The ol' boys' network does 'em in again.
- 8:09 pm
And Glemp's dancing to pretty much the same tune as the RM folk. So if the Vatican is pissed at them, they gotta be really ticked at Glemp, too. No?
- 8:11 pm
- michael farris said...
Glemp did not mention the pope directly or indirectly IIRC his anger seemed aimed at the pro-vetting media and political establishment.
And Glemp has a long history of pissing people off.
Finally (most controversially) I wonder if Wielgus hasn't more or less fallen on his sword.
I've always assumed that the church (very much a political organization then) purposely had some priests pretend to collaborate (I can think of a few good reasons for them to want to do this).
Perhaps Wielgus was one such reverse mole and he'd been assured the records would have been disappeared and his reputation would be protected (or were purposely not mentioned in communications with the vatican). There's been an aura of being caught by surprise in the church about how far and fast the media investigation went.
Just wild speculation but if you assume that Wielgus was acting with church knowledge (and assume the church is not willing to make that public) a lot of behavior around the case makes sense in ways it doesn't if you assume Wielgus was a garden variety informer. - 8:25 pm
..LOL... it's good to know it's the same 'ol fucked up Poland! As always, the Church wants to have its cake and eat it too. The Church had collaborated with the PRL's government since the early '50s under agreement signed by Cardinal S. Wyszynski. It was a symbiotic relationship which allowed the Church a freedom to conduct its pastoral activities, run its own independent educational institutions and build churches without much interference from the officials, in return for … hmmm… certain level of collaboration perhaps….? (BTW: Other religions were not so lucky…or, maybe not so collaborative …)
The Church and certain PZPR officials (namely J. Cyrankiewicz and his friends) also created a joint venture – PAX industries - which for 35 years remained the biggest private sector undertaking allowed in the PRL. It was a very profitable enterprise and made some people (including families of the Church officials..) quite wealthy. How is it that nobody is even as much as mentioning any of that? Is it me, or the Polish history is being rewritten again? - 9:28 pm
Michael Farris said "Wielgus was one such reverse mole"
If for one minute there was a possibility of this, the church would rush to publicize they had a disinformation program in place against the SB, and put to rest any use of the word collaborator.
When the hierarchy realized the magnitude of the problem, panic set in. The state of investigative journalism in Poland is still weak judging by the questions that weren't asked. The methods used by the SB to recruit were generally two fold, the carrot and the stick. The carrot was access to a passport or some privilege and the stick was blackmailing someone for an illegal act or indiscretion. If a person ever took the carrot they would later blackmail them with threats of disclosure should they try to end the relationship. There were few carrots actually being offered, most was done by blackmail or similar form of coercion.
Now comes the question that makes collaboration only the tip of the iceberg, how many priests got caught in situations of sexual misconduct including abusing children (not an unknown problem in the Catholic church) and given a way out by the authorises i.e. spy for us or else.
The IPN files also have a large number of cases were priests simply said "no", and it ended then and there. As a young priest Wielgus could have exercised common sense and immediately gone to his superiors in the church. But he instead either wanted the bribe or couldn't go to the church authorities because he was being blackmailed. - 9:35 pm
care..but not that much.... said... "The Church had collaborated with the PRL's government since the early '50s"
This analysis could not possibly be more incorrect or distorted, the church as a unique Polish institution has a proud record of defending Polish interests in the nation's darkest hours. The current issue is about a very small number of individuals that let themselves, the nation and church down. An anti-catholic rant is not relevant to the discussion at hand. - 9:48 pm
- michael farris said...
"the church would rush to publicize they had a disinformation program in place against the SB ... the church as a unique Polish institution has a proud record of defending Polish interests in the nation's darkest hours"
Just as it's possible for me to imagine (with no. evidence. whatsoever!) a planned disinformation campaign against the SB it's easy for me to imagine the church would not want that known (among other things it makes them look like rational political actors rather than selfless partisans).
"The current issue is about a very small number of individuals that let themselves, the nation and church down. An anti-catholic rant is not relevant to the discussion at hand."
I can't think of anything more likely to lead to anti-catholic rants than public ad hoc non-transparent lustration as happened in the Wielgus case.
disclaimer: I'll admit to ignorance as to what actually went on between Wielgus and the SB. I just wish more public pontificators would admit to their ignorance as well. - 11:10 pm
The problem with the analysis put forth by "care but not that much" and so many other folk on this blog (and elsewhere) is their assumption the Church is monolithic not only in Poland but universally.
I think Michael is probably correct in supposing there were some reverse moles but I doubt that Wielgus was one. I'm not convinced Church officials would rush to reveal they had a disinformation campaign in place; to do so would make them culpable to charges of being blatantly political -- which they are -- but they obviously can't come out and just say so.
And while Glemp did not mention the Vatican (smart on his part for a change), it still seems he royally screwed up and the Vatican bureaucrats won't listen to him anymore (they shouldn't have in the first place). - 11:33 pm
Michael Farris said... "ad hoc non-transparent lustration as happened in the Wielgus case"
We have two separate bodies investigating his case and they both reach the same conclusion, which was "willing cooperation with the SB". We have 68 documents over a twenty-year period, his signature on some of the documents. We have over 50 separate meeting/contacts with the SB. We have Wielgus's own admission, all be it with the qualification that his actions didn't hurt anyone. A qualification he has no right to make, as he doesn't know with certainty.
The documents being considered by the investigators were made public on the Internet for all to review.
I don't know the mechanic of what happened between him and the SB, it would remain speculation forever short of the SB officers coming forward.
The same collection of files that proved to be the undoing of Wielgus shows evidence where priests did the right thing. There was one case were after pressuring a priest to become an informer the placed a document in front of him and demanded his signature. He wrote I love my country; I love my God and signed it. The SB officer wrote in his report it's pointless to deal with this religious fanatic. And they left him alone.
The SB murdered a number of priests over the years; a famous case was Jerzy Popieluszko, murdered by the SB in 1984. It was intelligence information gathered through informers that in part was used in making the decision and carry out the act. - 12:19 am
- Unknown said...
(from "care but not that much..aka astopniewicz)
jannovak57 said..."This analysis could not possibly be more incorrect or distorted..[..]"
Not sure how we got to the "anti-catholic rant" part, since I have made no anti-catholic statements as jannovak57 might imply. Was it the part about other religions not being so lucky? I will try to correct that :)
Dear jannovak57, I would kindly point you in the direction of the census data. Over the 35-year period of the "old regime" the number of non-Catholics in Poland steadily declined, whereas the number of Polish Catholics was on a continuous rise. All of that while the overall population numbers were growing. How do you explain the fact that 20 years after the fall of the communist government the Catholics still account for 93% of the population.
I would be more than happy to see legitimate historical documentation (as opposed to a pro-catholic rant) to contradict the facts I have previously pointed out. Facts, as opposed to feelings and opinions.. I will agree that Polish Church is a unique Polish institution – in no other country (not even in contemporary Spain and Italy) is the Church more involved in the politics. It has always been that way. The Church is now, and has always been in it for its own interests and/or self-preservation. - 1:05 am
- Unknown said...
(cont.) I will also have to agree that the current issue is about a very small number of individuals – the ones who remained true to the tenets of their faith and not the "party line" of the institution they have been a part of. Finding them will be the real challenge for the Church and its followers. Or, perhaps, (if you can turn off for a moment your religiosity-fueled, sanctimony-flavored brand of nationalism) we can find in our hearts to forgive those who strayed for they were faced with rather impossible choices. What would Jesus do….hmm….?
- 1:08 am
- Unknown said...
BTW: It seems that the moderator has blocked my IP adress - why would you do that in the middle of such a stimulating and really quite civil conversation? That wasn't very nice :)
- 1:11 am
Albert said: "other religions not so lucky"
In so far as the smaller religious groupings were less able to withstand communist harassment I will agree. The authorities would have gone after smaller groups first as they did in the GDR. With respect to an increase in the proportion of Catholics, ethnic assimilation and emigration could be the more accurate explanation.
As for the Catholic Church getting into a sweetheart deal smelling of collaboration, I think not.
Wikipedia: "The 1950s were a time of persecution by the Communist authorities; the Stalinist ideology claimed the Church and religion in general was about to disintegrate. Archbishop Wyszyński decided to enter an agreement with the Communist authorities, which was signed on 14 February 1950 by the Bishops of Poland and the government. The Agreement regulated the matters of the Church in Poland. Yet already in May of that year Sejm passed a law for the confiscation of Church property, thus breaching the Agreement. In 1953 another wave of persecution began. When the bishops voiced their opposition to state interference in ecclesiastical appointments, mass trials and the internment of priests began. Father Wyszyński, who was made a cardinal in November 1952, also became a victim of the persecution. On 25 September 1953 he was imprisoned at Grudziądz, and later placed under house arrest in monasteries in Prudnik near Opole and in Komańcza in the Bieszczady Mountains. He was not released until 26 October 1956."
With respect to PAX, it was a transparent attempt of divide and weaken the church, didn't seem to work.
Wikipedia: "After the war, in 1945, Piasecki cofounded and directed a so-called social progressive movement of lay Catholics, grouped around the weekly publication "Dziś i Jutro". In 1947 he created the PAX Association and was the chairman of its governing body (until his death). Until 1956, during the period of Stalinism, this organisation was one of the main tools employed by the Communist regime to decrease the influence of the Catholic Church in Poland. It had almost an exclusive right to publish "Catholic" publications. In return it vocally supported anti-church actions taken by the government. After 1956 the importance of PAX diminished (and Piasecki's role along with it), though it remained a prominent organisation until 1989 and its successors still exist today." - 5:52 am
And if anyone wants to go beyond Wikipedia, may I suggest Jonathan Luxmoore and Jolanta Babich's excellent _The Vatican and the Red Flag_?
BTW, Albert, if Beetroot is off in Eqypt, my guess is that you were not blocked but will have to put up with the glitches in blogger.com like the rest of us (make sure you save your post before you send it because more than one individual's posts have been lost to cyberspace).
I do think suggesting that the Catholic Church as a whole or its leadership, as you seemed to imply, could be interpreted as somewhat anti-Catholic or at least misinformed. I think JanNovak spelled out that while there were indeed a small group of collaborationists, they were about 10% and the exception, not the rule.
And about forgiving those who strayed in the face of "rather impossible choices".... Then consider forgiving Wyszynski and others in the hierarchy for dealing with the communists instead of labeling them collaborationists (which can also be interpreted as an anti-Catholic rant).
And just saying no to being a snitch wasn't all that impossible as indicated by the records.
And I can forgive the likes of Wielgus et al insofar as they own up to what they did and didn't do, and explain their circumstances, instead of denying they did what they did making matters all so much worse. - 2:17 pm
- Unknown said...
"geez" thanks for the recommendation – I'll certainly look it up. I don't want to sound lawyerly here, but I guess we would have to define "collaboration." I would tend to agree with you that only a small number of people actually "snitched." But I also know that a lot of people found themselves in a position where a piece of paper was put in front of them to sign as a condition of continued employment (e.g. all employees working foreign assignments or involved in foreign trade were in that situation.) Some folks' were merely interviewed by the authorities and yet their names appeared on "The List." The question is which category was Wielgus in? If it's the former, I guess he had it coming (although, shouldn't there be some kind of "statute of limitations" on that ..) If it's the latter though, I would say that the guy is getting 'the short end of the stick' due to the politics within the inner circles of the Church.
jannovak57 you said "[..] With respect to an increase in the proportion of Catholics, ethnic assimilation and emigration could be the more accurate explanation." I must strongly disagree with you. I'm not sure what "ethnic assimilation" means in the context of Poland. I'm guessing that you are referring to the Jewish population. In which case, although I disagree with the term you're using, I agree that there was some assimilation and emigration there (albeit forced in many cases). However, keep in mind that there used to be other religions too: the Lutherans, the Russian-Orthodox, etc.
I hope I didn't offend anybody with my comments - that was not my intention. My joining this discussion is based entirely on a knee-jerk reaction to what I perceive (rightly or wrongly) as the tendency to paint the history (..or as I call it: "My Life".. ) in black and white. In reality, it was many shades of grey. - 8:36 pm
Michael Farris and friends,
A reminder...the phrase the 'ducks' is disrespectful. No matter how much you may dislike the President of Poland and so on, you should still refer to their proper name. Farris, should we refer to you as "the arrogant pinhead from Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznan", or just "pinhead"? Surely not, it just wouldn't be too nice, now would it? - 10:02 pm
- michael farris said...
I'll keep that in mind in case you ever take over the comments section of this blog or if I comment on your blog.
Until then I'll refer to public figures how I see fit (within the parameters set by the person whose blog this is). - 10:34 pm
Albert: It's already been established by an independent commission that Wielgus went over the line -- and that he wasn't on the up and up in being forthcoming about what was what to his superiors in the Church. Jan Novak (below) pretty much summed it up:
Again, if he was honest about it, it may have not been the problem it has turned out to be. Or alternatively, he may have been honest but his superiors initially poo-pooed it and now they've been caught with their britches down. It's still unclear what happened and even seems to be getting murkier.
I don't normally recommend anything by Richard Neuhaus because I tend to be mightily distressed by his and George Weigel's and Michael Novak's rants (though I do frequently keep an eye on First Things) but the January 9th entry herein adds to the mix:
But as JanNovak summed it up:
"We have two separate bodies investigating his case and they both reach the same conclusion, which was "willing cooperation with the SB". We have 68 documents over a twenty-year period, his signature on some of the documents. We have over 50 separate meeting/contacts with the SB. We have Wielgus's own admission, all be it with the qualification that his actions didn't hurt anyone. A qualification he has no right to make, as he doesn't know with certainty.
The documents being considered by the investigators were made public on the Internet for all to review.
I don't know the mechanic of what happened between him and the SB, it would remain speculation forever short of the SB officers coming forward."
BTW, I think the dux r fux and gabba gabba hey.
Not to mention that Zippy lives:
http://www.zippythepinhead.com/ - 11:54 pm
Ducks, Kartoffeln, buraki - the choice is unlimited.
The respect needs to be earned first. - 4:12 pm
referring back to Sonia's point on Chavez. So in a democratic state one is not able to show their support for a leader of another democratic state who was elected by 63% of society in an election with a 75% turnout??
Countries such as the USA and Poland could only dream of such genuine democratic support. - 5:38 pm
anonymous said... "elected by 63% of society in an election with a 75% turnout?? "
So what, Hitler got a good voter turn too. And Poland's communist governments usually got elected by 97% of the vote (took the SB about a week to find the other 3%). Any nation can be bamboozled by some socialist bullshit artist. The question at hand is how much damaged he'll do and how long will it take to undue the damage. - 6:53 pm
Yes, she also said
This is a good exemple of how the plague of Communism spreads even to its avowed opponents. Like McCarthyism, it's a case of the Bolshevik paranoia reproducing itself in a sort of perpetuum mobile.
The important thing isn't whether Wielgus WAS a Communist sympatizer. The question is whether he IS one now... I don't care if he spied for Jarzelski. I wan to know what he thinks about Chavez...
She's soooooooooo confused. This is precisely the kind of thing McCarthyists wanted to know. - 6:54 pm
jannovak said:
anonymous said... "elected by 63% of society in an election with a 75% turnout?? "
So what, Hitler got a good voter turn too. And Poland's communist governments usually got elected by 97% of the vote (took the SB about a week to find the other 3%)
Another twister. Before seizing power, i.e. in the days of democracy, Hitler never got over 50% votes. And comparing Venezuelan election, generally agreed to be fair, with pseudo-elections conducted in PRL is a kind of thing that "Trybuna Ludowa" was so good at it.
Any nation can be bamboozled by some socialist bullshit artist. The question at hand is how much damaged he'll do and how long will it take to undue the damage.
Why only socialist? Look at the US and the neocons. Or is bullshit bullshit only when it's socialist bullshit? - 7:02 pm
gussie Fink-Nottle said..."Why only socialist?"
Because it's a failed out of date ideological position.
So far Mr. Chavez has shut down a TV station because it opposed his views, started the process of amalgamating the political parties that supported him into one large party in preparation of a single party state and the process of nationalizing businesses is in full swing. Seems to be a rerun of Fidel in Cuba, a country that has only it's poverty and destitution to show for it. Today in Cuba economic desperation causes university educated Cuban women to sell themselves to tourists for a few American dollars.
There is no historical precedent that would make me belief this methodology will work elsewhere, when without exception every application has been been a failure.
Latest news flash: Chavez is now trying to change the constitution to remove term limits……sounds like president for life routine. - 8:25 pm
- Unknown said...
jannovak57 said "Today in Cuba economic desperation causes university educated Cuban women to sell themselves to tourists for a few American dollars."
Be careful there jannovak57… The reason for that is the continuing economic blockade by the US and not the failed economic policy. As a matter of fact, Cuban government took some gutsy actions to keep the country afloat, e.g. revamping their bio-pharm industries and establishing Cuba as a major player in the generic drug market. Let's try not to smear people just because we don't agree with their ideology. - 9:14 pm
The reason for that is the continuing economic blockade by the US and not the failed economic policy.
-- Homo Sovieticus? - 9:49 pm
- Unknown said...
Dear "jeeves" - like I said, don't smear people just because they have different opinions. I guess we should not expect too much from a guy who calls himself "jeeves"... I'll ring the bell next time I need your opinion ;)
- 10:30 pm
Actually, Albert, gussie reduced me and most Poles to the category homo sovieticus or somesuch (we're incapable of independent thought) in the January 6th discussion.
So consider yerself in good company.
And you might want to google the name gussie fink-nottles to find the relationship he has to Jeeves. - 10:48 pm
Albert and Jeeves said:"blockade"
The embargo is the excuse not the reality; there is only one country on earth that has an economic embargo on Cuba, it's the USA. The US accounts for 13% approximately of world trade. They can't get by on the other 87% who seem quite prepared to trade with them?
Or is the issue really, a centrally planned economy that can't compete because of waste and inefficiency? Why would you feel that Cuba could make something work that failed in every other place it was applied. Communism failed to meet the basic material needs of the population and therefore was destined to collapse as it did.
If the embargo were dropped it would mean little to the Cuban economy except for cigar exports and Americans in the line up at the whorehouse. These are hardly pillars of economic recovery.
Is it a real embargo anyway? Per year figures 2005
80,000 US visitors to Cuba
3000 US business visits to Cuba
1 Billion USD in funds sent by exiles to their families in Cuba
Cuba purchases $ 400,000,000 in agricultural products from US.
The Cuban government can get the embargo lifted any time it wants, American conditions are easy to meet, release political prisoners and hold open and free elections.
Consider this, the 1.5 million Cuban American population (the exiles) have a GDP nearly twice that of the entire Cuban Republic (11 million). - 11:23 pm
- Unknown said...
well.. "Jeeves & Wooster" happened to be one of my favorite shows. To quote Jeeves: "Those men, sir, seem to have been labouring under serious misapprehension" ..or, to quote another great philosopher, Hank Hill "The boy ain't right!"
- 11:34 pm
Venezuela = socialism + democracy.
Sort of what Solidarność used to fight for.
21st century socialism. get used to it. - 7:57 am
Geezer said:
Actually, Albert, gussie reduced me and most Poles to the category homo sovieticus or somesuch (we're incapable of independent thought) in the January 6th discussion.
I'm not "Jeeves"
Tell me , Geezer, is your education technical?
BTW, if you think I have a bad opinion about Poles, just read comments of foreigners living in Poland to today's > article, by Timothy Garton Ash
Here is one beaut by someone who lived 8 years in Poland:
Poland is a country where the majority of noble and compassionate souls have been eradicated by partitions, wars and regimes. All that is left is scum that would commit to anything in order to survive. Poles are friendly at first glance, but if you scratch the surface you see an ugly picture of rot, hate and corruption.
So wake up and smell the roses. Few more years of the rule by the pisuars and constant stalking of hate and bigotry and Poland's reputation will take generations to recover. - 4:14 pm
Jannovak57 said...
Albert and Jeeves said:"blockade"
The embargo is the excuse not the reality; there is only one country on earth that has an economic embargo on Cuba, it's the USA. The US accounts for 13% approximately of world trade. They can't get by on the other 87% who seem quite prepared to trade with them?
EU account for a similar percentage of world trade. Now imagine an effect of EU's trade embargo on Poland. - 4:48 pm
gussie Fink-Nottle said. "just read comments of foreigners living in Poland to today's "
We really don't give a Fuck about what foreign cockroaches think about us, they exist amongst us at our pleasure, like a monkey in a zoo. If they become tiresome, well you know from our history we understand how to take care of business. The EU and it's values will get lip service until we extract the last Euro out of those bastards.
Tell me, do you know the name of the syphilitic whore who brought you into this world or which participant in the gangbang actually fathered you.
Think of it as being a houseguest at first you're a cherish guest but quickly you find yourself transforming into a pest. A metamorphosis starting as an amusing curiosity and quickly becoming an object of distain. The same mental process that makes one hesitate when seeing a bug walk across the floor before stepping on it. - 6:18 pm
Anonymous said...
We really don't give a Fuck about what foreign cockroaches think about us, they exist amongst us at our pleasure, like a monkey in a zoo. If they become tiresome, well you know from our history we understand how to take care of business.
You mean pogroms of Jews? Yes, at that Poland was really good. Not so good at kicking out more powerful, huh? Losing every single war and uprising for, oh I don't know, 300 years? Maybe it had something to do with the type of thinking you present? Never able to secure a genuine alliance - because every foreigner is suspect.
.The EU and it's values will get lip service until we extract the last Euro out of those bastards.
Bravo! Not only a whore, but also not ashamed to admit that you are a whore!
However, I have news for you. It is the EU that will change Poland, and xenophobes like you will die out.
If not, then the EU money will be well spent on building the largest open air museum in the world. Visit Poland, where time stands still. - 7:15 pm
- Unknown said...
Gussie - I must say you have hit the nail on the head! Couldn't have said it better myself - bravo!
- 8:55 pm
Again, I'm in a quandry trying to figure out who the bigger bigots are....
- 1:18 pm
Hey gussie, you make it look like Timothy Garton Ash is the person who lived in Poland for eight years who makes a comment about Poles being scum comes pretty close to slanderous. Ash is not and has never been the bigot you and your chums are.
- 1:25 pm
From a very pro-Vatican reporter, there is the following which indicates that Wielgus was a strong Radio Maryja supporter and "protector":
There are the fiery campaigns of Poland's Radio Maryja (unconnected to the broadcaster of the same name in Italy), which has engaged in mudslinging to the point of accusing Lech Walesa, the icon of the peaceful overthrow of the communist regime, of collaborating with that regime, but then defended to the end archbishop Wielgus, a great protector of the radio network, against the same accusations.
Also from the same article, this:
But there's more. The current director of "Tygodnik," Fr. Adam Boniecki, once a personal friend of Wojtyla's and head of the Polish edition of "L'Osservatore Romano," has said:
"I don't know who, but someone has misled pope Joseph Ratzinger. This is a serious matter, and someone must pay for it, in Poland or in the Vatican."
For the full article:
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=110361&eng=y - 3:20 pm
For the few who continue to read this post/thread, I wanted to share news of a similar event happening in Hungary, although the fervor of defense appears to been wisely lacking.
- 2:05 pm
thanks, romerican! Such info is precisely why I still like the BR blog despite all the recent BS.
- 3:06 pm
- beatroot said...
What BS, Mr Geeeezzz? Prey tell...
- 3:44 pm
From the Warsaw Voice:
"Some experts on Vatican affairs say the pope will possibly appoint a team to put matters in the Polish church back in order-especially since Benedict XVI is still facing the task of appointing, sooner or later, a new head of the Warsaw archdiocese." - 8:32 pm
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- 9:00 pm
- hoate said...
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#Questioning / Interrogation
#Questioning / Interrogation
Summonses to appear for questioning before police or the prosecutor can certainly be legitimate in many cases, for example in connection to an inquiry into events about which a HRD may have information. However, questioning is also used as a means to intimidate human rights defenders in relation to their legitimate work, by sending the message that an investigation may be opened against them.
Azza Soliman Testimony
I told the Prosecutor that the police report was a lie, and I repeated my true observations about police violations and aggressions. How could a voluntary witness who happened to be at the scene become an 'accused' person? This is something that only happens authoritarian police states, such as Egypt.

subset: commoncrawl


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PLEASANT GROVE, Utah – The discovery of seven dead babies in cardboard boxes in a Utah garage has police desperately seeking answers from the mother and other family members about how such a tragedy unfolded over a decade with no one noticing.
Megan Huntsman, 39, is accused of killing her babies after giving birth to the children between 1996 and 2006, investigators said. She was booked Sunday into the Utah County Jailwith six counts of murder. It wasn't immediately clear if Huntsman has an attorney or why there were six counts and not seven.
The gruesome case has raised a series of questions about how the killings occurred despite Huntsman carrying out what neighbors seemed like a normal existence. Police declined to comment on a motive and what Huntsman said during an interview with investigators.
Her estranged husband made the discovery while cleaning out the garage after recently getting out of prison, and authorities do not believe he was aware of the killings and he isn't a person of interest at this time.
Police Capt. Michael Roberts said officers responded to a call from him Saturday about a dead infant, and then they found the six other bodies.
Family and neighbors identified the estranged husband as Darren West, who has been in prison on drug-related charges.
Roberts said police believe West and Huntsman were together when the babies were born.
"We don't believe he had any knowledge of the situation," Roberts told The Associated Press
Asked how the man could not have known about the situation, Roberts replied, "That's the million-dollar question. Amazing."
The babies' bodies were sent to the Utah medical examiner's office for tests, including one to determine the cause of death. DNA samples taken from the suspect and her husband will determine definitively whether the two are the parents, as investigators believe.
Huntsman also has three daughters — one teenager and two young adults — who lived at the house.
Neighbors in the middle-class neighborhood of mostly older homes 35 miles south of Salt Lake City say they were shocked by the accusations and perplexed that the woman's older children still living in the home didn't know their mother was pregnant or notice anything suspicious.
Police say West made the grisly discovery at the house owned by his parents in a city of about 35,000 people at the foot of snow-capped mountains. It's a nondescript, newer home with a brick facade and a star ornament hanging by the door.
Several police cars blocked the entrance to the house Sunday evening as officers milled about with the belongings from the garage strewn across the front lawn.
Late Sunday, West's family issued a statement saying they were in a "state of shock and confusion."
"We are mourning this tragic loss of life and we are trying to stay strong and help each other through this awful event," the statement said before asking for privacy.
West pleaded guilty in federal court in 2005 to two counts of possessing chemicals intended to be used in manufacturing methamphetamine, court records show. In August 2006, he was sentenced to nine years in prison, but appealed the term three times. He maintained his innocence and said he never had any intention to manufacture meth. It's unclear when he was released.
West's sister Sarah Wright wrote to federal district court in 2006, saying West is a good father to his three daughters. She said he worked at an excavation company for 11 years and is an avid outdoorsman who likes to fish and camp.
"Darren is such an awesome dad," she wrote.
Neighbors told the AP they were shocked and horrified by the accusations of what went on inside the home. None of them even knew Huntsman was pregnant in recent years.
The family members seemed like nice people and good neighbors, said Aaron and Kathie Hawker, who live next door.
Huntsman moved out several years ago, leaving her three daughters, one teenager and two young adults, to live alone, the Hawkers said. They weren't sure where Huntsman has since been living.
Years ago, Huntsman baby-sat the Hawker grandchildren and they were friendly with each other.
"It makes us so sad, we want to cry," Kathie Hawker said. "We enjoyed having them as a neighbor. This has just blown us away."
Aaron Hawker said he talked with West on Saturday morning. He told Hawker he was cleaning out the mess in the garage.
"Two hours later, suddenly we had all these policemen here," Aaron Hawker said.
Fred Newman, a neighbor whose cousin is the husband's mother, said he's perplexed how the three oldest daughters living there didn't know about what police say was going on. He said the girls didn't always park their cars in the garage, but did sometimes in the cold winter months.
"What's shocking is the three older ones living there and not noticing that their mother was pregnant," Newman said.
He said he has used his snow-blower to clean off the driveway of the home and the young women would thank him.
The girls were normal youngsters, coming and going often, neighbor Vickie Nelson said.
"It's shocking and kind of morbid and strange," Nelson said as he looked across the street at the garage from her from lawn.
Roberts said the case has been "emotionally draining" and upsetting to investigators. He was at the home when the bodies were discovered.
"My personal reaction? Just shocked. Couldn't believe it. The other officers felt the same," the 19-year police veteran said.
"They got more and more shocked each box they opened," Roberts said.
Griffith reported from Reno, Nev. Associated Press writer Annie Knox in Salt Lake City contributed to this report.


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Explorations in Washington & the Columbia Gorge
Hey gang! This past week has been jam-packed with photography, and as a result, this post is going to be very photo-rich. In fact, I'm going to make this more of a "photologue" type of update. Here goes:
In the beginning of the week, we moved on from Seattle and headed toward North Cascades National Park. Now that I've knocked off all the 50 states, I'm trying to visit all the national parks as well. North Cascades is just south of the Canadian border and is full of snow-capped mountains. There is one main road that goes right through the park so we took that and made various stops. I've got to say, even though the drive was gorgeous, the area didn't "sing to me" photographically. Now, that's just me. It could be completely different for you.
I took the above pano from the Washington Pass overlook on the east side of the park. I still have to fine-tune it. We parked the bus a few miles outside the park entrance in a tiny town called Marblemount. From there, we would go exploring. We also attempted to enter the park on a more primitive road, but the washboard bumps ended up being too much for the Mini. It wasn't a failed journey, though, because we found this nice waterfall on the way (shown below) and we ended up spending a while shooting it.
In the shot below, Karen demonstrates how to shoot a roadside waterfall when it's cold out. She parked the car next to the falls and is sitting on the heated seats! Her tripod is set up on the ground next to the car.
The next stop in our travels was Ellensburg, WA. I wanted to photograph a vintage gas station there, and we ended up over-nighting in that area as well. The town is really nice. There are lots of old buildings with character that are also well-maintained. The station I photographed was part of the Red Horse Diner and you can see me shooting there in the photo below.
The Teapot Dome Service Station is another building that's been on my shooting list for a while, and it's located in the town of Zillah, WA, which is about an hour south of Ellensburg. When we arrived in Zillah, we literally had to track the building down. When we arrived at the first address, we saw this:
It was as if the darn thing got up and walked away! We later learned that it didn't actually walk away… it was rolled away, and moved to a new location closer to downtown. We finally found it and spent about an hour shooting this little gem. Karen shot the image below, and she captioned it "Where is Ben?" Can you find me in the shot?
I shot the image below with my new fisheye zoom lens.
We continued south to the border between Washington and Oregon and then spent a few days exploring the Columbia Gorge area. There is lots to shoot in this area and it's one of those places we'll probably revisit again and again. During this visit, we focused on waterfalls. Both of the falls we shot were located inside John B. Yeon State Park, which is on the Oregon side of the gorge.
The first of the waterfalls was Wahclella Falls, and it was about a mile hike to get there. The whole area is beautiful, with vibrant foliage and moss-covered trees. Karen shot the pano below of me shooting the falls. Because of her angle, it's hard to tell how big the waterfall actually is.
In the shot below, I have Karen in the frame to show the scale of the waterfall. In this one, you CAN tell how big it is!
The second waterfall we photographed was Elowah Falls, and it was a .8 mile hike to get there. This one was much taller and narrower, with nice moss-covered rocks to use as a foreground. The fisheye shot below is of Elowah Falls. (As is the header of this blog post)
Finally, we spent a bit of time exploring the towns along the gorge. There are lots of nice little restaurants, wineries and breweries. It was great to wrap up a day of hiking and shooting with a wine tasting or a local beer! Our next stop will be the Portland area, but we'll most likely be making day trips back to the gorge area to hit some waterfalls we missed, including the spectacular Multnomah Falls. More to come…


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Shailene Woodley: Latest Action Heroine Reprises Role in INSURGENT
Golden Globe®-nominee Shailene Woodley who starred in 2014's young adult blockbuster movie "The Fault In Our Stars" reprises her role in the most anticipated second instalment of her action starrer "The Divergent Series: Insurgent" along with returning cast headed by Academy Award®-winners Kate Winslet and Octavia Spencer, Theo James, Ansel Elgort, Jai Courtney, Ray Stevenson, Zoë Kravitz, Miles Teller, Maggie Q and Mekhi Phifer.
Based on the is based on author Veronica Roth's New York Times best-seller of the same name that has sold nearly 30 million copies worldwide. The film is directed by Robert Schwentke from a screenplay by Brian Duffield, Akiva Goldsman and Mark Bomback and produced by Douglas Wick and Lucy Fisher following its first "Divergent" feature film that grossed nearly $300 million at the global box office.
"Insurgent," the second feature film of the action adventure franchise raises the stakes for Tris (Woodley) as she searches for allies and answers in the dystopian ruins of a futuristic Chicago.
Tris and Four (James) are now fugitives highly-wanted by Jeanine (Winslet), the leader of the power-hungry erudite elite. Racing against time, they must find out what Tris' family has sacrificed their lives to protect, and why the Erudite leaders will do anything and everything to stop them. Haunted by her past choices but desperate to protect the ones she loves, Tris, along with Four, faces one impossible challenge after another as they unlock the truth about the past and ultimately, the future of their world.
Non-stop thrilling action starts when "Insurgent" opens March 19 in the Philippines.


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NSE-Red NOT Chili Peppers- Tribute to Red Hot Chili Peppers
NSE-Red NOT Chili Peppers- Tribute to Red Hot Chili Peppers
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Booking: Neal Shelton
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Formed in 2009, the Red Not Chili Peppers have quickly risen to be the Nation's most active Chili Pepper tribute while also reaching international markets in Brazil, Mexico, and Japan. With top musicians hailing from as far as Barcelona Spain, the Red Not's have stopped at nothing to develop the most accurate re-creation of that distinctive alternative funk rock sound everyone knows to be Red Hot Chili Peppers. Start with musicians who grew up heavily influenced by RHCP with an uncanny physical resemblance, mix in the ability to deliver a truly explosive performance, and you have all the ingredients for a work class tribute act. The Red Not's will always deliver that raging party everyone expects from a Chili Pepper show!


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May 12 is International Fibromyalgia Awareness Day!
May 11, 2016 | christine | Featured, Spoon Lady Speaks | 45 Comments
In addition to my lupus, I also have fibromyalgia. One of my best friends was recently diagnosed with it as well. I love her. I feel that although pain and fibro is something I know a bit about, I can not help her acceptance of this diagnosis. I have seen her in pain both emotionally and physically.
[ read more ]


text:
Copyright © 2014 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio, Beihang), All Rights Reserved. W3C liability, trademark and document use rules apply.
The bulk of the text of this specification is also available in the WHATWG HTML specification, under a license that permits reuse of the specification text.
This specification defines an API for opening an HTTP connection for receiving push notifications from a server in the form of DOM events. The API is designed such that it can be extended to work with other push notification schemes such as Push SMS.
This section describes the status of this document at the time of its publication. Other documents may supersede this document. A list of current W3C publications and the latest revision of this technical report can be found in the W3C technical reports index at http://www.w3.org/TR/.
This specification is the 9 December 2014 Proposed Recommendation of Server-Sent Events. The W3C Web Applications Working Group is the W3C working group responsible for this specification's progress along the W3C Recommendation track. This document is intended to become a W3C Recommendation. A Candidate Recommendation (CR) of the specification was published on 11 December 2012. No changes have been made to this specification since the CR was published except for some updates to this document's References appendix.
A Test Suite and Implementation Report for this specification are available.
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Publication as a Proposed Recommendation does not imply endorsement by the W3C Membership. This is a draft document and may be updated, replaced or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to cite this document as other than work in progress.
By publishing this Proposed Recommendation, W3C expects the functionality specified in this Proposed Recommendation will not be affected by changes to DOM4, Web IDL, Web Messaging or Web Workers as those specifications proceed to Recommendation.
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This document is governed by the 14 October 2005 W3C Process Document.
interfaceThis section is non-normative.
To enable servers to push data to Web pages over HTTP or using
dedicated server-push protocols, this specification introduces the
Using this API consists of creating an EventSource
object and registering an event listener.
var source = new EventSource('updates.cgi'); source.onmessage = function (event) { alert(event.data); };
On the server-side, the script ("updates.cgi
" in this case) sends messages in the
following form, with the text/event-stream
data: This is the first message. data: This is the second message, it data: has two lines. data: This is the third message.
Authors can separate events by using different event types. Here is a stream that has two event types, "add" and "remove":
event: add data: 73857293 event: remove data: 2153 event: add data: 113411
The script to handle such a stream would look like this (where
and removeHandler
are functions that take one argument,
the event):
var source = new EventSource('updates.cgi'); source.addEventListener('add', addHandler, false); source.addEventListener('remove', removeHandler, false);
The default event type is "message".
Event streams are always decoded as UTF-8. There is no way to specify another character encoding.
Event stream requests can be redirected using HTTP 301 and 307 redirects as with normal HTTP requests. Clients will reconnect if the connection is closed; a client can be told to stop reconnecting using the HTTP 204 No Content response code.
Using this API rather than emulating it using XMLHttpRequest
or an
allows the user agent to make better use of network resources in cases where
the user agent implementor and the network operator are able to coordinate in advance. Amongst
other benefits, this can result in significant savings in battery life on portable devices. This
is discussed further in the section below on connectionless
All diagrams, examples, and notes in this specification are non-normative, as are all sections explicitly marked non-normative. Everything else in this specification is normative.
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in the normative parts of this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC2119. For readability, these words do not appear in all uppercase letters in this specification. [RFC2119]
Requirements phrased in the imperative as part of algorithms (such as "strip any leading space characters" or "return false and abort these steps") are to be interpreted with the meaning of the key word ("must", "should", "may", etc) used in introducing the algorithm.
Some conformance requirements are phrased as requirements on attributes, methods or objects. Such requirements are to be interpreted as requirements on user agents.
Conformance requirements phrased as algorithms or specific steps may be implemented in any manner, so long as the end result is equivalent. (In particular, the algorithms defined in this specification are intended to be easy to follow, and not intended to be performant.)
The only conformance class defined by this specification is user agents.
User agents may impose implementation-specific limits on otherwise unconstrained inputs, e.g. to prevent denial of service attacks, to guard against running out of memory, or to work around platform-specific limitations.
When support for a feature is disabled (e.g. as an emergency measure to mitigate a security problem, or to aid in development, or for performance reasons), user agents must act as if they had no support for the feature whatsoever, and as if the feature was not mentioned in this specification. For example, if a particular feature is accessed via an attribute in a Web IDL interface, the attribute itself would be omitted from the objects that implement that interface — leaving the attribute on the object but making it return null or throw an exception is insufficient.
This specification relies on several other underlying specifications.
Many fundamental concepts from HTML are used by this specification. [HTML]
The IDL blocks in this specification use the semantics of the WebIDL specification. [WEBIDL]
MessageEvent is defined in [WEBMESSAGING].
The construction "a Foo
object", where
is actually an interface, is sometimes
used instead of the more accurate "an object implementing the
interface Foo
The term DOM is used to refer to the API set made available to
scripts in Web applications, and does not necessarily imply the
existence of an actual Document
object or of any other
objects as defined in the DOM Core
specifications. [DOMCORE]
An IDL attribute is said to be getting when its value is being retrieved (e.g. by author script), and is said to be setting when a new value is assigned to it.
interface[Constructor(DOMString url, optional EventSourceInit eventSourceInitDict)] interface EventSource : EventTarget { readonly attribute DOMString url; readonly attribute boolean withCredentials; // ready state const unsigned short CONNECTING = 0; const unsigned short OPEN = 1; const unsigned short CLOSED = 2; readonly attribute unsigned short readyState; // networking attribute EventHandler onopen; attribute EventHandler onmessage; attribute EventHandler onerror; void close(); }; dictionary EventSourceInit { boolean withCredentials = false; };
The EventSource()
constructor takes one or two arguments. The first specifies the
URL to which to connect. The second specifies the
settings, if any, in the form of an EventSourceInit
dictionary. When the EventSource()
constructor is
invoked, the UA must run these steps:
Resolve the URL specified in the first argument, relative to the entry script's base URL. [HTML]
If the previous step failed, then throw a
Create a new EventSource
Let CORS mode be Anonymous.
If the second argument is present, and the withCredentials
dictionary member has the value true, then set CORS
mode to Use
Credentials and initialize the new EventSource
object's withCredentials
attribute to true.
Return the new EventSource
object, and continue
these steps in the background (without blocking scripts).
Do a potentially CORS-enabled fetch of the resulting absolute URL using the entry script's referrer source, with the mode being CORS mode, and the origin being the entry script's origin, and process the resource obtained in this fashion, if any, as described below.
The definition of the fetching algorithm (which is used by CORS) is such that if the browser is already fetching the resource identified by the given absolute URL, that connection can be reused, instead of a new connection being established. All messages received up to this point are dispatched immediately, in this case.
This constructor must be visible when the script's global
object is either a Window
object or an object
implementing the WorkerUtils
The url
attribute must return the absolute URL that resulted
from resolving the value that was
passed to the constructor.
The withCredentials
attribute must return the value to which it was last initialized.
When the object is created, it must be initialized to false.
The readyState
attribute represents the state of the connection. It can have the
following values:
(numeric value 0)OPEN
(numeric value 1)CLOSED
(numeric value 2)close()
method was
invoked.When the object is created its readyState
must be set to
(0). The
rules given below for handling the connection define when the value
The close()
method must abort any instances of the fetch algorithm
started for this EventSource
object, and must set the
to CLOSED
The following are the event handlers (and their
corresponding event handler
event types) that must be supported, as IDL attributes, by
all objects implementing the EventSource
Event handler | Event handler event type |
onopen | open
onmessage | message
onerror | error
In addition to the above, each EventSource
has the following associated with it:
These values are not currently exposed on the interface.
The resource indicated in the argument to the EventSource
constructor is fetched when the constructor is run.
For HTTP connections, the Accept
header may
be included; if included, it must contain only formats of event
framing that are supported by the user agent (one of which must be
, as described below).
If the event source's last event ID
string is not the empty string, then a Last-Event-ID
HTTP header must be
included with the request, whose value is the value of the event
source's last event
ID string, encoded as UTF-8.
User agents should use the Cache-Control: no-cache
header in requests to bypass any caches for requests of event
sources. (This header is not a custom request header, so the user agent will still
use the CORS simple cross-origin request mechanism.)
User agents should ignore HTTP cache headers in the response, never
caching event sources.
As data is received, the tasks queued by the networking task source to handle the data must act as follows.
HTTP 200 OK responses with a Content-Type header
specifying the type text/event-stream
, ignoring any
MIME type parameters, must be processed line by line as described below.
When a successful response with a supported MIME type is received, such that the user agent begins parsing the contents of the stream, the user agent must announce the connection.
The task that the networking task source places on the task queue once the fetching algorithm for such a resource (with the correct MIME type) has completed must cause the user agent to asynchronously reestablish the connection. This applies whether the connection is closed gracefully or unexpectedly. It doesn't apply for the error conditions listed below except where explicitly specified.
HTTP 200 OK responses that have a Content-Type specifying an unsupported type, or that have no Content-Type at all, must cause the user agent to fail the connection.
HTTP 305 Use Proxy, 401 Unauthorized, and 407 Proxy Authentication Required should be treated transparently as for any other subresource.
HTTP 301 Moved Permanently, 302 Found, 303 See Other, and 307 Temporary Redirect responses are
handled by the fetching and CORS algorithms. In the case of 301
redirects, the user agent must also remember the new URL so that subsequent requests for this
resource for this EventSource
object start with the URL given for the last 301 seen
for requests for this object.
HTTP 500 Internal Server Error, 502 Bad Gateway, 503 Service Unavailable, and 504 Gateway Timeout responses, and any network error that prevents the connection from being established in the first place (e.g. DNS errors), must cause the user agent to asynchronously reestablish the connection.
Any other HTTP response code not listed here must cause the user agent to fail the connection.
For non-HTTP protocols, UAs should act in equivalent ways.
When a user agent is to announce the connection, the
user agent must queue a task which, if the readyState
attribute is
set to a value other than CLOSED
, sets the readyState
attribute to
and fires a simple event named open
at the EventSource
When a user agent is to reestablish the connection, the user agent must run the following steps. These steps are run asynchronously, not as part of a task. (The tasks that it queues, of course, are run like normal tasks and not asynchronously.)
Queue a task to run the following steps:
If the readyState
attribute is
set to CLOSED
, abort
the task.
Set the readyState
attribute to
Fire a simple event named error
at the EventSource
Wait a delay equal to the reconnection time of the event source.
Optionally, wait some more. In particular, if the previous attempt failed, then user agents might introduce an exponential backoff delay to avoid overloading a potentially already overloaded server. Alternatively, if the operating system has reported that there is no network connectivity, user agents might wait for the operating system to announce that the network connection has returned before retrying.
Wait until the aforementioned task has run, if it has not yet run.
Queue a task to run the following steps:
If the readyState
attribute is
not set to CONNECTING
, abort these
Perform a potentially CORS-enabled
fetch of the absolute URL of the
event source resource, using the same referrer source, and
with the same mode and origin, as those used in
the original request triggered by the EventSource()
constructor, and
process the resource obtained in this fashion, if any, as
described earlier in this section.
When a user agent is to fail the connection, the user
agent must queue a task which, if the readyState
attribute is
set to a value other than CLOSED
, sets the readyState
attribute to
and fires a simple event named error
at the EventSource
object. Once the user agent has failed the connection, it does not
attempt to reconnect!
The task source for any tasks that are queued by EventSource
objects is the
remote event task source.
This event stream format's MIME type is
The event stream format is as described by the stream
production of the following ABNF, the
character set for which is Unicode. [ABNF]
stream = [ bom ] *event event = *( comment / field ) end-of-line comment = colon *any-char end-of-line field = 1*name-char [ colon [ space ] *any-char ] end-of-line end-of-line = ( cr lf / cr / lf ) ; characters lf = %x000A ; U+000A LINE FEED (LF) cr = %x000D ; U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) space = %x0020 ; U+0020 SPACE colon = %x003A ; U+003A COLON (:) bom = %xFEFF ; U+FEFF BYTE ORDER MARK name-char = %x0000-0009 / %x000B-000C / %x000E-0039 / %x003B-10FFFF ; a Unicode character other than U+000A LINE FEED (LF), U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR), or U+003A COLON (:) any-char = %x0000-0009 / %x000B-000C / %x000E-10FFFF ; a Unicode character other than U+000A LINE FEED (LF) or U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR)
Event streams in this format must always be encoded as UTF-8. [RFC3629]
Lines must be separated by either a U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN U+000A LINE FEED (CRLF) character pair, a single U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character, or a single U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) character.
Since connections established to remote servers for such resources are expected to be long-lived, UAs should ensure that appropriate buffering is used. In particular, while line buffering with lines are defined to end with a single U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character is safe, block buffering or line buffering with different expected line endings can cause delays in event dispatch.
Streams must be decoded as UTF-8, with error handling. [HTML]
One leading U+FEFF BYTE ORDER MARK character must be ignored if any are present.
The stream must then be parsed by reading everything line by line, with a U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN U+000A LINE FEED (CRLF) character pair, a single U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character not preceded by a U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) character, and a single U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) character not followed by a U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character being the ways in which a line can end.
When a stream is parsed, a data buffer, an event type buffer, and a last event ID buffer must be associated with it. They must be initialized to the empty string
Lines must be processed, in the order they are received, as follows:
Dispatch the event, as defined below.
Ignore the line.
Collect the characters on the line before the first U+003A COLON character (:), and let field be that string.
Collect the characters on the line after the first U+003A COLON character (:), and let value be that string. If value starts with a U+0020 SPACE character, remove it from value.
Process the field using the steps described below, using field as the field name and value as the field value.
Process the field using the steps described below, using the whole line as the field name, and the empty string as the field value.
Once the end of the file is reached, any pending data must be discarded. (If the file ends in the middle of an event, before the final empty line, the incomplete event is not dispatched.)
The steps to process the field given a field name and a field value depend on the field name, as given in the following list. Field names must be compared literally, with no case folding performed.
Set the event type buffer to field value.
Append the field value to the data buffer, then append a single U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character to the data buffer.
Set the last event ID buffer to the field value.
If the field value consists of only ASCII digits, then interpret the field value as an integer in base ten, and set the event stream's reconnection time to that integer. Otherwise, ignore the field.
The field is ignored.
When the user agent is required to dispatch the event, then the user agent must act as follows:
Set the last event ID string of the event source to value of the last event ID buffer. The buffer does not get reset, so the last event ID string of the event source remains set to this value until the next time it is set by the server.
If the data buffer is an empty string, set the data buffer and the event type buffer to the empty string and abort these steps.
If the data buffer's last character is a U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character, then remove the last character from the data buffer.
Create an event that uses the MessageEvent
interface, with the event type
, which does not bubble, is not cancelable, and has no
default action. The data
attribute must be initialized
to the value of the data buffer, the origin
attribute must be initialized to the Unicode serialization of the
origin of the event stream's final URL (i.e. the URL after redirects), and the lastEventId
attribute must be initialized to the
last event ID string of the event source.
This event is not trusted.
If the event type buffer has a value other than the empty string, change the type of the newly created event to equal the value of the event type buffer.
Set the data buffer and the event type buffer to the empty string.
Queue a task which, if the readyState
attribute is
set to a value other than CLOSED
, dispatches the newly
created event at the EventSource
If an event doesn't have an "id" field, but an
earlier event did set the event source's last event ID
string, then the event's lastEventId
field will
be set to the value of whatever the last seen "id" field was.
The following event stream, once followed by a blank line:
data: YHOO data: +2 data: 10
...would cause an event message
with the interface
to be dispatched on the
object. The event's data
attribute would contain
the string YHOO\n+2\n10
(where \n
represents a newline).
This could be used as follows:
var stocks = new EventSource("http://stocks.example.com/ticker.php"); stocks.onmessage = function (event) { var data = event.data.split('\n'); updateStocks(data[0], data[1], data[2]); };
...where updateStocks()
is a function defined as:
function updateStocks(symbol, delta, value) { ... }
...or some such.
The following stream contains four blocks. The first block has
just a comment, and will fire nothing. The second block has two
fields with names "data" and "id" respectively; an event will be
fired for this block, with the data "first event", and will then
set the last event ID to "1" so that if the connection died between
this block and the next, the server would be sent a Last-Event-ID
header with the
value "1". The third block fires an event with data "second event",
and also has an "id" field, this time with no value, which resets
the last event ID to the empty string (meaning no Last-Event-ID
header will now be
sent in the event of a reconnection being attempted). Finally, the
last block just fires an event with the data
" third event" (with a single leading space character).
Note that the last still has to end with a blank line, the end of
the stream is not enough to trigger the dispatch of the last
: test stream data: first event id: 1 data:second event id data: third event
The following stream fires two events:
data data data data:
The first block fires events with the data set to the empty string, as would the last block if it was followed by a blank line. The middle block fires an event with the data set to a single newline character. The last block is discarded because it is not followed by a blank line.
The following stream fires two identical events:
data:test data: test
This is because the space after the colon is ignored if present.
Legacy proxy servers are known to, in certain cases, drop HTTP connections after a short timeout. To protect against such proxy servers, authors can include a comment line (one starting with a ':' character) every 15 seconds or so.
Authors wishing to relate event source connections to each other or to specific documents previously served might find that relying on IP addresses doesn't work, as individual clients can have multiple IP addresses (due to having multiple proxy servers) and individual IP addresses can have multiple clients (due to sharing a proxy server). It is better to include a unique identifier in the document when it is served and then pass that identifier as part of the URL when the connection is established.
Authors are also cautioned that HTTP chunking can have unexpected negative effects on the reliability of this protocol. Where possible, chunking should be disabled for serving event streams unless the rate of messages is high enough for this not to matter.
Clients that support HTTP's per-server connection limitation
might run into trouble when opening multiple pages from a site if
each page has an EventSource
to the same
domain. Authors can avoid this using the relatively complex
mechanism of using unique domain names per connection, or by
allowing the user to enable or disable the EventSource
functionality on a per-page basis, or by sharing a single
object using a shared worker.
User agents running in controlled environments, e.g. browsers on mobile handsets tied to specific carriers, may offload the management of the connection to a proxy on the network. In such a situation, the user agent for the purposes of conformance is considered to include both the handset software and the network proxy.
For example, a browser on a mobile device, after having established a connection, might detect that it is on a supporting network and request that a proxy server on the network take over the management of the connection. The timeline for such a situation might be as follows:
constructor (possibly
including a Last-Event-ID
HTTP header, etc).This can reduce the total data usage, and can therefore result in considerable power savings.
As well as implementing the existing API and
wire format as defined by this
specification and in more distributed ways as described above,
formats of event framing defined by other applicable
specifications may be supported. This specification does not
define how they are to be parsed or processed.
While an EventSource
object's readyState
is CONNECTING
, and the object
has one or more event listeners registered for open
, message
or error
events, there must be a strong
reference from the Window
or WorkerUtils
object that the EventSource
object's constructor was
invoked from to the EventSource
object itself.
While an EventSource
object's readyState
is OPEN
, and the object has one or
more event listeners registered for message
or error
events, there must be a strong
reference from the Window
or WorkerUtils
object that the EventSource
object's constructor was
invoked from to the EventSource
object itself.
While there is a task queued by an EventSource
object on the remote event task source, there must be a
strong reference from the Window
object that the EventSource
object's constructor was invoked from to that
If a user agent is to forcibly close an
object (this happens when a
object goes away permanently), the user agent
must abort any instances of the fetch algorithm started
for this EventSource
object, and must set the readyState
attribute to
If an EventSource
object is garbage collected while
its connection is still open, the user agent must abort any instance
of the fetch algorithm opened by this
It's possible for one active network connection to
be shared by multiple EventSource
objects and their
fetch algorithms, which is why the above is phrased in
terms of aborting the fetch algorithm and not the
actual underlying download.
This registration is for community review and will be submitted to the IESG for review, approval, and registration with IANA.
The charset
parameter may be provided.
The parameter's value must be "utf-8
This parameter serves no purpose; it is only allowed for
compatibility with legacy servers.
An event stream from an origin distinct from the origin of the content consuming the event stream can result in information leakage. To avoid this, user agents are required to apply CORS semantics. [CORS]
Event streams can overwhelm a user agent; a user agent is expected to apply suitable restrictions to avoid depleting local resources because of an overabundance of information from an event stream.
Servers can be overwhelmed if a situation develops in which the server is causing clients to reconnect rapidly. Servers should use a 5xx status code to indicate capacity problems, as this will prevent conforming clients from reconnecting automatically.
Fragment identifiers have no meaning with
This section describes a header field for registration in the Permanent Message Header Field Registry. [RFC3864]
All references are normative unless marked "Non-normative".
For a full list of acknowledgements, please see the HTML specification. [HTML]