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Sunday, July 1, 2012
Fact-checking the M23 rebellion
The M23 rebellion is the result of the international community pressing for Bosco Ntaganda's arrest.
Not really. The real reason behind the M23 mutiny/rebellion is Kinshasa's desire to get rid of the ex-CNDP parallel chains of command in the Kivus. The CNDP - Gen. Laurent Nkunda's armed group - had been integrated into the Congolese army in 2009 through a deal brokered by the Rwandan government. That deal proved providential for the ex-CNDP, as they received top positions in the operational command, with around 20 per cent of senior positions in South Kivu (I don't have figures for North Kivu), along with control over smuggling and taxation rackets (often in complicity with non-CNDP). Other, non-CNDP officers were resentful of this arrangement and have been sending signals since at least last year that they want to break up these ex-CNDP networks. So when pressure piled up in March to arrest Bosco it provided the trigger, but not the underlying cause, for the mutiny.
(Another myth is that Kabila called for Bosco's arrest in April in Goma. He said, in Swahili: "There are a hundred reasons why we could arrest him," but never explicitly called for his arrest. Since then, however, the governor of North Kivu has called for his arrest.)
The M23 rebellion was formed because Kinshasa had not lived up to its end of the March 23, 2009 agreement.
This is a bit disingenuous. The M23 are called thus because they claim that all they want is the March 23, 2009 agreement with the Kinshasa government to be implemented. (As a reminder, here and here are the terms of the deal.) It is true that there were shortcomings - more could be done to promote the repatriation of Congolese refugees from Rwanda, although the issue is complex. There certainly were tensions and insults traded between ex-CNDP and other FARDC commanders, and the implementation committee had not met in many months.
But to say that the ex-CNDP did not receive their proper salaries is a bit rich, given that many ex-CNDP officers benefited royally from their deployments to mining areas and their control over smuggling rackets. Bosco in particular became rich through smuggling minerals across the border; his men even burglarized banks in Goma in broad daylight.
As for the operations against the FDLR, which the M23 claim had been insufficient, the past three years had seen major advances. According to the UN, 4,914 FDLR combatants returned home via MONUSCO between 2009 and February 2012, with almost as many dependents. That could be anywhere between 50 and 75 per cent of all FDLR troops, although it does not account for fresh recruitment and the original estimates for the FDLR strength may have been slightly off.
In addition, the Congolese government has continued to allow a Rwandan special forces company of around 200 soldiers to maintain a base in the eastern Congo (bizarrely, until today) and conduct operations against the FDLR. These, again, have been very successful (although often at a great humanitarian cost) - with their help, the FDLR Chief of Staff Col. Mugaragu was killed, as were the influential battalion commander Col. Kanzeguhera (aka Sadiki Soleil) and several other important officers.
There were certainly problems with the integration of the ex-CNDP and insincerity on both sides. But those problems should have been solved at the negotiation table, not on the battlefield.
Allegations of anti-Tutsi discrimination are just a pretext for Rwandan meddling.
Slow down, this isn't quite so simple. There is no doubt that deep resentment and prejudice persists against the Tutsi community in the eastern Congo. And there have been many incidents of abuse against Tutsi civilians and soldiers over the past years, ranging from summary execution to torture and hate speech. All communities in the eastern Congo have experienced abuse, but the Tutsi perception of discrimination is accentuated given their particular history. This fear and ethnic solidarity is very real.
But allegations of anti-Tutsi discrimination are not always well-founded and have at times been manipulated. Since the mutiny began, there have been accusations of anti-rwandophone attacks, particular in Masisi. While there have not been exhaustive investigations, the UN and international NGOs have looked into these allegations by sending teams to the field and have not been able to to find proof of systematic abuse (there appear to have been isolated cases of rape and murder, which are reprehensible, but not widespread). In particular, the allegation voiced both by the Rwandan government and the M23 that 43 ex-CNDP Tutsi were killed in Dungu during anti-LRA operations has not been corroborated by either Congolese civil society or international NGOs based there. There have indeed been Tutsi and Hutu civilians arrested by the Congolese army and intelligence services under suspicion of collaboration with M23, and some of these civilians may have been beaten. Investigations are ongoing.
It is worthwhile pointing out that many of the units deployed against the M23 in the Mushaki-Kilolirwe part of Masisi were initially from the 601st battalion, which included many Tutsi and Hema officers at the company level. Also, the sector commander who took over from the M23 in Masisi is Col. Innocent Kabundi, a Tutsi himself from Masisi, and many of the staff officers commanding operations in North Kivu are Tutsi (Col. Jonas Padiri, Col. Innocent Gahizi, Col. Aaron Nyamushebwa, etc.).
The US government delayed the UN Group of Expert's report from being published.
Yes, although the US government was divided on this matter. According to several sources within the State Department - in Washington, Rwanda and the Congo - the outlier was Ambassador Susan Rice, the US Permananent Representative to the United Nations. She had some misgivings about the information in the report and especially whether this was the best way to air these allegations, thinking it would be best to address this behind closed doors to avoid an escalation. Almost everybody else in the State Department, including the embassies in the field, as well as Assistant Secretary of State Johnnie Carson, agreed that the addendum to the report should be published.
The Congolese army is collaborating with the FDLR in their offensive against the M23.
This is an allegation to Rwandan government has made, largely in private. There is no hard proof so far to substantiate this. The most serious claim was the visit of FDLR Col. Pacifique Ntawunguka (aka Omega) to Goma in May, allegedly to meet with Congolese Gen. Didier Etumba and to receive money to fight the M23. Other allegations have been made of suspicious troop movements toward the front in Runyoni. Also, this past week an FDLR delegation visited Goma from Brussels, as reported in Rwandan newspapers. According to several sources in Goma, this delegation had been organized by a Norwegian NGO to help sensitize the FDLR, but were arrested by the Congolese army once they were there. It is not clear whether there was some ulterior motive to their visit.
While the Congolese army has collaborated with the FDLR in the past - most recently in 2008 - there has not yet been independent verification of any systematic collaboration against the M23.
The M23 mutiny is not the most serious conflict in the east; we should focus our attention elsewhere.
Yes, while the M23 has the most significant geopolitical implications, the most serious humanitarian situation in April and May was the fighting between Raia Mutomboki along the border between North and South Kivu. Hundreds have been killed there since late last year and tens of thousands displaced. The Rwandan government has pointed this out, suggesting that we should focus our attention there.
But here, again, it may well be more complicated. Some of the armed groups active there - in particular the Forces pour la défense du Congo (FDC) and Sheka Ntaberi's Nduma Defense of Congo (NDC) - have direct ties with Bosco Ntaganda and perhaps even Kigali (see the Group of Experts' report here). There are now allegations, which have not been substantiated, coming from civil society and the Congolese government, that similar ties exist with the Raia Mutomboki. That would be strange, given the extreme anti-rwandophone bent to the group, but these kinds of alliances contre nature have popped up previously.
162 comments:
Look here, the cavalry is coming to produce a smoke screen for Kagame. He surely needs one now.
Question is: who will buy this stuff? - July 1, 2012 at 9:26 AM
- Unknown said...
I will be working on the ICGLR project and would like to speak with you. I can be contacted at:
Please see brief background below:
http://www.baselgovernance.org/icar/ - July 1, 2012 at 11:06 AM
There is no justification whatsoever for neither M23 nor their sponsor Rwanda on the unspeakable atrocities going on in Eastern DRC. These actions are reprehensible and must be condemned in the strongest terms by people of good will, especially after the last UN report and addendum on DRC are made public. We Congolese must be alert and oppose any ideas or actions trying to find any kind explanation to this yet another invasion and looting of a sovereign country.
Elie M. - July 1, 2012 at 1:11 PM
- Anand said...
I wonder if Western governments (US, etc.) had a firm grasp of the underlying tensions when pushing for Bosco's arrest. Based on recent wars in the Middle East, we can conclude that the US is not always aware of the potential backlash of certain military actions. Not to diminish the greater humanitarian suffering created by other conflicts in the Kivus, but it seems that the M23 issue will have the furthest reaching political consequences and could lead to a wider conflict. Did Western governments factor this potential in, when pushing for Bosco's arrest? And what was the sudden push for Bosco's arrest based on? Was the logic that arresting Bosco would lead to a major improvement in SSR? That seems a little naive if the underlying systems aren't addressed. How closely do Kinshasa's and the West's agendas line up in regard to M23/exCNDP/SSR? Western policy in Congo still baffles me in many ways.
- July 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM
- congo man said...
Thank-you Jason for this clarifications, i think general PADIRI is a REGA but not a Tutis. Can you please give us an update on the offensive,are the m23still in the Virunga?who is controlling BUNAGANA and all the areas around the Ugandan boarder .do u have any information about the alleged UGANDAN involvement and support of the rebels? Thanks
- July 1, 2012 at 8:11 PM
Excellent piece!
Rwanda and congo should sort out this! But what I would like to know, why is it that congo is interested to crush 300 plus M23 mutineers who occupy two hills at the border instead of focusing on the wider picture, i.e dealing with FDLR and other terror groups. M23 ca be sorted out later. - July 1, 2012 at 9:58 PM
@ Jason,
Please watch this and let me know..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqV5pxcnmo&fb_source=message - July 1, 2012 at 11:03 PM
collabo with FDLR up to 2008? yeah, may be in ops and may be as Kin policy, but there's actually quite some evidence individual commanders have been contuining all sorts of cooperation with the FDLR up to today-different types of trade, non-agression pacts, intel on Mai Mai- not surprisingly mostly Hutu commanders.
- July 2, 2012 at 1:06 AM
- Simone Schlindwein said...
RE: FDLR Collaboration / M23
@jason: u have more information on the arrest of those "belgian FDLRs?"
According to my information the Norwegian NGO is a partner to the ECC (Eglise the Christ de Congo). The Norwegian guy is called Kare Lode, he is in closed contacts with Stanis in the FDLR HQ since many years.
I met those delegation shortly in Monusco in Goma. They handed over a letter of N-Kivu Gouverneur to Monusco chief in Goma to demand flights to visit Kimua to negotiate with FDLR.
They had been mostly Congolese (many of them priests) on Belgian passports.
According to Kare Lodes own comments on FDLR, they seem to be keen to negotiate - at least other commanders, not Mudacumura. But those "negotatins" are bades as well a money making strategy: the ECC paid FDLR last time around 5000$ "transport" to agree on a meeting.
According to my sources some FDLR-wings are these days keen to surrender their arms since they dont see the organisation itsself to survive. They all know that another assassination-operation against Mudacumura was launched weeks ago. - July 2, 2012 at 1:27 AM
Jason, can you direct me to an article that explains in full those who were facilitated by Norwagian NGO to meet FDLR?
Nyaraus - July 2, 2012 at 3:28 AM
Kagama - Ngbanda on the side of warmongering.
That all sort of extremists linked with Ngbanda will try to give Kagame a pretext for his secession war of the Eastern Congo, is normal.
That serious people pretend to take this seriously is hypocrite and criminal.
For the point of view of Kinshasa on etnic bigotry :
What Ngbanda can do outside the Congo, is the responsibility of the French, British ans other governments who give these people all the possibilities to do their devil's job. (I suggest that Mister Lavendisch, who announces here above he'll be working on the "ICGLR project", studies the case of this Bischop Elysee, what must be really easy).
But inside Congo, there is a responsible government:
http://radiookapi.net/actualite/2012/07/01/rdc-lambert-mende-interdit-la-parution-du-quotidien-le-journal/ - July 2, 2012 at 5:05 AM
- blaise said...
Some questions are left unanswered:
-what the hell Paluku was thinking?
-what's up with Rwanda's expeditionary corp in Rutshuru?
Since everybody got the answer to the problem of the East, here is some interesting,although partial,about Rwanda.
http://www.independent.co.ug/the-last-word/the-last-word/6016?task=view - July 2, 2012 at 5:29 AM
Comme un Tutsi congolais, je demande à tous les Tutsis congolais dans le pays pour travailler avec patriotes FARDAC et la défaite fauteurs de guerre au Rwanda (M23), qui ne se soucient pas de vous ou congolais.
C'est la seule chance de montrer notre compatriote congolais que nous sommes des patriotes
Tolingi Congo!!
Tutsi congolais à Londres - July 2, 2012 at 5:46 AM
- David Aronson said...
SO my initial impression was that DRC was taking this rebellion far more seriously than it usually does, dispatching its top officials to the front to make defiant statements, sending forth its "elite" troops to the region. But there's been very little movement on the DRC govt front over the past two weeks, and Kabila's speech was a dud. (see my blog: http://www.congoresources.org/2012/07/kabilas-unenthralling-independence-day.html) So what's your sense of the Congolese government's reaction? Is this a calm as the govt assembles its forces, or just Kabila's usual lassitude?
- July 2, 2012 at 6:21 AM
- blaise said...
@ David Aronson
pres Kabila doesn't seem to be interest either in peace or Congo(my opinion).His father was more engaged than him. I disagree with Ldk methods but at least he showed some passion for the country. The son, although a formidable opponent to pres. Kagame(weaken the genocide theory) never position Congo as a strong state. I bet he will come up with some half baked solutions where everybody will be forgiven and business will be as usual. - July 2, 2012 at 6:34 AM
Events in the last 3 months have caught many by surprise, shattered "usual lies" and forced the reassessment of many "idees recues" about instability in the Kivus:
(1) From the American perspective, the State Department people now know that "American interests" can only be served better and durably, not through individuals (tyrants like Kagame) and unnecessary wars, but through democracies and stability in the African Great Lakes region. The backing and patronage of Kagame no matter what in the last 15 years, has only produced death and desolation, and obviously couple of $blns for int'l banking and mining mafias behind him. An American policy that seeks mutual benefits, promotes freedom and prosperity of all peoples (Congolese, Tutsis and Hutus) in the region, is the only alternative that should be given a chance now . The inveterate anti-Congo hawks at the State Department need to be opposed, they are hurting American int'l and moral standing.
(2) Kinshasa has been awaken from their suspicious slumber. First, it is clear that they didn't really know how or prepare to arrest Ntaganda. Hence JK's ambivalent statement that Jason mentioned. But even more shocking is that they didn't seem to have a definite and coherent strategy of dealing with Rwanda. It took the accusations of complicity with the enemy by many Congelese for them to realise that Rwanda should not be cajoled indefinitely, Kagame should be confronted openly with the truth as his lies have expired.
(3) Kigali is the most dumbfounded . Blindly used to blank checks and free lunches from the IC, they never envisaged the temerity of the UN GoE for example, and the subsequent rebuking from the Western, alleged backers.
More important, they have suddenly realised that the 2 crouches they were leaning on in the IC have just crumbled. One, the FDLR issue can be resolved easily only if Rwanda stops distracting DRC's attention by fomenting useless rebellions. Proof is that FDLR that were quieted have suddenly resurfaced due to the focus by FARDC on the biggest threat, Rwandan M23 militia. Two, all know now that though they may have concerns, Tutsis are not under any danger in Congo. Look how minister Mende has just shut down a newspaper just because they tried to link M23 to the Tutsi community(ref. link by Ano. Above).
So, his majesty king Kagame and co., plz fabricate other excuses for your wars in Kivus, FDLR and "Tutsi victimhood" lame deceptions are no more working in the IC.
muanacongo - July 2, 2012 at 7:34 AM
Hi. About the Norwegian NGO that organized the coming of FDLR from Brussels who have been arrested. My information says it wasn't an FDLR delegation at all, but belgo-Rwandan citizens who had come in order to help in the sensitization of the FDLR, because they are rwandophones, not because they are FDLR. This to say, it seems to me the press picked a non event and made an event out of it, these were not even FDLR officials, only accused to be so. P.S: my sources are rather sure :)
H. - July 2, 2012 at 11:02 AM
I hop they all listen and answer to your call before It's too late . Merci mingi Mr TUTIS CONGOLAIS.
- July 2, 2012 at 1:06 PM
The Rwandan PR is working hard to deflect attention away from the issues at hand. The peace delegation (see letter in link below) made mostly of church leaders from the ECC (Protestant Church in DRC)can in no way negociate military attacks on Rwanda by FDLR. Many initiatives taken by respected church leaders(ECC, San Egidio...) to engage a dialogue between Rwanda and its rebels, and peacefully end the war in Eastern Congo have always met Rwanda's opposition. From the UN report, it appears clearly that Rwandans have a vested interest in a never ending FDLR presence in Eastern DRC.
Elie M. - July 2, 2012 at 2:05 PM
@ David Aronson and Blaise,
Here is your answer. This is: if you want to hear other things then your denigrating blabla :
http://www.presidentrdc.cd/edito_pouvoir.html - July 2, 2012 at 7:58 PM
Kabila is fully responsible of this situation, there are many question that one can ask after reading GoE report and all these question sun up to : what was kabila thinking while negotiating directly with Kagame without even involving parliement.
How does Ntaganda became congolese ?
How come James kabarebe can give direct orders to Congolese officer in the Kivus?
How after more than 10 year there is still not an army?
Why kabila give credit to all supporter of the "DRc is unmanageable , it is failed state, let's breake it down"?
And he gives himslef the luxuary to hunt down opponent in Kinshasa (diomi) using well known motus operandi (sexual crimes, used condoms ) like for Chebeya?
Does really Kabila want stAbility to congo.
I don't think kabila fought Kagame, Kabila helped kagame maintaining his grip in congo by keeping the congo weak. It is because of the international community that kivu situation is taking another direction. If it was for Kabila nothing would have changed.
Kabila is Kagame partner in crime. His role is to weaken congo from inside. And I defy anyone to tell me that, Kabila' action as president has benefited the congolese people or made the congo' case stronger in world public opinion.
He is on mission, and this mission is to bring us down. - July 2, 2012 at 8:35 PM
It is much easier to take a firm stance and to perish then it is to survive and go forward taking in account the real proportions of strength.
Without support for the Kagame-regime from the US and the UK, it would never have been necessary to make concessions and compromises with these criminals.
Who has punished Kabila for his military offensive against Nkunda in spring of 2008? It was the Western world who said "you must negotiate" "you must look for a political solutions" "this cannot be solved by force" etc... etc...
Last year was an election year in Congo. The external income for the Congolese government was 16% o what was expected. The external income of Rwandan government was 51%. How come? - July 3, 2012 at 12:04 AM
@ano 12. Iam not sure I get your point. Is it that Kabila has been a good leader because he recognized forces and moved with the wind ?
If that is your point, then I confirm thatbhe is the worse leader ever. If he had a long term strategy and thatbhe bowed for tactical reason, we would not be where we are now. He has no excuse for weakening administration, and keeping army weak. Do you know that soldiers fighting were trained by Belgium and it was the Belgium who ensured that they were recruited in all the regions of the country. Kabila and co wannted only people from their region. When they were deployed Belgium remotely continued to advise them. We needed Belgium 52 years later to help us have brigades ready for battle. Kabila own guard is just for crushing citizens in the strets of Kinshasa. No military value.
As a leader based on assesment he should have been planning ahead and accept to be weak for a limited period and not make the country endemicaly weak.
It is because of him, that the balkanization people have argument: the country is too big, no way to manage it, congolease are not able to run a country, no local competencies, etc.
He is helping Kagame looks good by giving a bad image of my country. - July 3, 2012 at 1:59 AM
- blaise said...
@ anonym JULY 2, 2012 7:58 PM
I'm not denigrating our dear leader. I'm stating facts. As citizen we have the obligation to ask question and get to the bottom line. People life is in stake here. Now tell me:
1. What's up with those specials forces from Rwanda in the Rutshuru? Check the civil society take on that one.
2. Why is that we 7000 soldiers, are fighting hard but not a lot to show for? Rwanda? maybe.
It's just weird that commandos are doing the infantry job instead of being behind enemy lines
3. what's up with those delay for paying the military anyway?
As I state in numerous thread, I believe that there was no rush to launch an operation that went out of hand. It was easier to:
- give a descent life to ALL soldiers
- raise the army in some professional standards
- diffuse inter ethnic tensions in the region.
I don't think the M23 will have any traction if the Fardc was a protective force against any negative force.
We can start blaming anybody we want but the bottom line is that nobody knows prez Kabila next move because he has his own agenda. It's not a mystery that soldiers have been assassinate or vanished for no apparent reason. Remember captain Kasongo?
As long as prez Kabila will not engage in the research of peace, we will have those shady deals over and over. - July 3, 2012 at 4:05 AM
"CONSUP's initial objective was to spark unrest by agitating members of the political opposition through urban strikes and protests until staged provocations of the security forces would lead to the killings of protestors, thus sparking an armed rebellion against President Kabila.
According to several CONSUP members detained
before it could take action, following the uprising in Bukavu, "reinforcements from
the RDF were to come from Cyangugu/Rusizi in Rwanda on the pretext of coming to
assist the Rwandophone population or Rwandan citizens supposedly the victims of
persecutions or targeted by the manifestation" CONSUP leader René Kahukula is currently in hiding in Rwanda according to Congolese intelligence and FARDC commanders." - July 3, 2012 at 5:39 AM
- Can you reveal to us plz what is Joseph Kabila hidden agenda in all this as you say?
- Of the 7000 FARDC at the front, how many are ex-CNDP who are spying for Rwanda and sympathise with their friends of M23? 3000? 4000? - July 3, 2012 at 8:09 AM
However much you love JK, one should not deny the fact that army reform has lagged behind, and as the head of state the buck stops with JK. At the same time, our political blinkers and personal vendettas against JK are producing our disingenuous arguments here.
Here is the mess we are coming from:
(1) LD Kabila and AFDL got short-changed by Rwanda with the infiltration of the no-existent Congolese army then. Could this have been avoided honestly? The patriot LDK, who naively did not expect it, tried to rectify the situation. This led to the African World War and his assassination.
(2) Given his personal background as "le nouveau venu", JK distrusted both the notoriously opportunistic Congolese politicians and the FARDC, who were just an amalgamation of rival militias. Besides it seems that JK was convinced until 2010 that the context, of institutional instability and economic vulnerability (DRC broke and IMF& WB debt ridden), was not perhaps the most propitious for profound changes. Because, let's be honest: in the Congolese context, army reform "really" means that the FARDC will be made autonomous, and the control from the President will be curtailed. Was he wrong, was he right?
Considering all these realities, I believe no people (country) would have survived but Congolese did. There is therefore no excuse or obstacle to building "une armee republicaine" now.
But at the end of the day, the real issue right now is that Congo has to get rid of the Rwandan M23 militia that is causing unspeakable human suffering. Rwanda has broken int'l laws (breaking UN embargo, shielding an ICC wanted criminal Ntaganda) and should be punished.
No diversion please!
muanacongo - July 3, 2012 at 8:25 AM
- blaise said...
1.-" Can you reveal to us plz what is Joseph Kabila hidden agenda in all this as you say?"
R/ We will use a logical approach:
In 2001, prez Jk talks about reforms and impunity.
11 years later, why are we still talking about the same things?
The Uk deputy Joyce, revealed some shady businesses going on in the mines. He is pro Rwandans but is that makes those finds falses?(Dan Gertler and Forest)
We still have targeted assassinations in the military and among civilians.
Katumba Mwanke died while en route for another of those backroom deals.
We still have commanders trading with Fdlr and other negatives forces.
What the logical explanation about all this?
For me, it's that the prez has an hidden agenda that doesn't advantage the DRC.The second question will emphasize my point.
2."Of the 7000 FARDC at the front, how many are ex-CNDP who are spying for Rwanda and sympathise with their friends of M23? 3000? 4000?"
That's an excellent question you should ask the president.
Logically, will you have put ex-cndp in the front line fighting the M23 for this long? that a too much of a temptation for defection. If you know the living conditions of a soldier, you will understand that we have some criminal negligence right there.
We are talking about Rwanda's support, how about those special forces in Rutshuru collaborating with Fardc to track the Fdlr. What's the strategy here?
Why do you think the mai-mai are ally to the M23? If you read the report you will realize that they all want one think: more power. The 2009 accord gave a bad precedent about taking arms to get promoted and not respecting chain of command. If by negotiation with Rwanda it means that we have the same half baked solutions, we will be in the same mess 3 years for now.
The prez is successful because he is in survival mode. that makes him dangerous because he will do whatever he had to do to stay in power, even if that means burning the country.
The path into peace is a hard one:
. we need to address those tribal rivalries
. we need to have clears rules about the military
. we need to break with all those groups
.we need to stop with impunity
Without transparency and organization, the region will continue to be troubled.
Disclosure: I don't hate JK, he had great ideas but never quite walk the walk(my take). I don't have anything personal against him like one suggested. Mobutu too had his white elephants. - July 3, 2012 at 6:03 PM
- blaise said...
This is how regular people live under JK.
http://radiookapi.net/actualite/2012/07/03/katanga-panique-mitwaba-apres-des-coups-de-feu-entendus-dans-la-nuit-de-lundi/ - July 3, 2012 at 6:08 PM
- congo man said...
What ethnic tensions are you talking about ? Have you ever been to the KIVUS? Some time I agree with you when it comes to the badly needed army reform ,but in this situation I think you are very wrong. In both north and south kivu there have never been any problem between the many ethnic groups that inhabit that region .the BASHI,REGA ,NANDE,HUNDE,fulero,BA BEMBE,HAVU,TUTIS,BA VIRA.....have been living side by side peaceful for centuries,intact when you are in BUKAVU ,GOMA and any ether urban erea it is impossible to distinguish between the ethnic groups because everybody speak SWAHILI with the same accent .do you think those TUTIS inside Rwandan Refugees camps will be beging to return back to Congo if their safety was threatened? How much more information do u need in order to understand what the M23, CNDP...are all sent by KAGAME to plunder our resources . This is not about KABILA ,BEMBA....this is about our Country.I agree with you when it comes to army reform ,but i think our FARDC have comme the long way and I don't expect them to finish this job in 1 month. The BALKANISATION of our Country is a lost cause ,the DRC is and it will remain one nation .Kagame and his dictatorship's days are numbered ,the DRC is slowly rising and RWANDA won't stop it. - July 3, 2012 at 6:35 PM
From the horse mouth itself, we have learned that the goal of Rwanda is to create secession of the Kivus (GoE report). The rest is diversion. Congolese, please put everything else to rest and let's deal with the M23 threat first and next all the other groups sponsored with the same intent. Do not get carried away from our real objective. Team up to save the country by defeating the enemies of our nation, now that we know their plans.
Elie M. - July 3, 2012 at 7:40 PM
- congo man said...
Thanks ELie M, I agree with you a 100%,and i hope all Congolese understand what is at stake here. I know that NBGANDA and his supporters can't wait to see an ether Victory for our enemies but i think this time their wait will last forever . The enemy has already lost . CONGO OYEE.
- July 3, 2012 at 8:08 PM
As, I suppose , a young congolese leader loving his country you need to have a long term strategy and based on this strategy and your every tactical move should help reach your strategy. Here the strategy is having a strong and propserous congo,I'm sure we agree. Now let's talk about the Tactical moves..
This war from rwanda is existing because the drc is endamicly weak. Because it is weak, it accepts bad deals, it is unable to militarily defend its citizens, its land without external help (Monusco, belgian). If war with rwanda stops now, and these underlying cause of drc weakness are not addressed what will happen? Next problem will be with angola (in fact we alread have 2 isues with angola: the petrol that they pump in our deposit, and kahemba that they are still occupying).
Do you think that the tactical moves made by kabila regarding the army make us stronger in the long run?
We can unite now forget everything , die for the flag, and then what happen? Kabila continue to rule and keep the country weak, continue to make congolese people life miserable?
My point is that as young congolese we have to address a problem in a way that is sustainable, and not calling for change from kabila regime and just focusing on rwanda is to have a short term horizon. Soldiers havd to do their part, kabila has to do his, and we don't have to be fanatic about it. Nbanda, as mende or tshisekedi have rights to have their position. And as opponent it is their duty to question kabila politic if they see it as being wrong.
So my point is look long term and do not stop at ths war, there are others waiting for us, and if we not prepare now we will continue crying for a long time.
Personally, I don't like kabila , because he is a failure. But again that is my point of view, if he wake up and starts turning the situation around , I will start liking him. For now as the president, as the leader of drc, he is responsible. - July 3, 2012 at 9:24 PM
I have failed to see the logic of your "JK conspiracy theory". Like all conspiracy theories/propaganda, facts are decontextualized and magnified, convenient and incongruous deductions are made. I therefore logically conclude that the JK monotonous deception is utilised in reality:
- to obliterate Kagame's criminal role in fuelling the violence in the Kivus, even before JK came to power.
- to delegitimise DRC's institutions so there no centre that holds, that way the demonic plan of dismembering the Kivus can take place( much like in Mali now)
ref: "...will you have put ex-cndp in the front line fighting the M23?..."
Yes, as this was the only test for them to prove to the Congolese nation "their undivided allegiance". Just imagine that these guys stood with the rest of Congolese to face the enemy, who would turn around and not listen to their "concerns"? But we have learned the lesson. Because any cause of Tutsi community in Congo can never be achieved through the barrel of a gun, but when that community dissociates itself from those want our destruction.
muanacongo - July 3, 2012 at 11:57 PM
@muanacongo, reading you just made me realize that Kabila has done all of these things you describe in your conspiracy theory..... In fact I am wondering if you were not passing a message in a very clever way.....
I agree with the person who said that we have to be strategic. Kabila is our ATT. Maybe by incompetence or willingly , he is making congo centre looks totally failed.
Defeating Kagame is necessary, defeating Kabila our ATT, is equally important.
To ko WA mpo na ekolo, mpo na kabila Te.
PK - July 4, 2012 at 1:59 AM
- Rich said...
Blaise -
This is just to say, as someone who has worked in the security sector, although they sometimes make sense, your comments and some of others sound very demoralising.
This is not the time to quarrel among ourselves. We had that chance during the election, there is an ongoing debate inside the DRC but when we are outside let's try and fight our common enemy. le linge sale se lave en famille dit-on.
I don't know if your deception with JK is any greater than all of us but I think it is possible to put that aside for the time being because further delegitimising our institutions is just another way of providing ammunition to those threatening our unity.
I prefer not to go into too much details about some of your comments but the main thing is, we can look at the things you are complaining about from a different angle.
This is how I see the situation:
- From 1996 to 1998 rwanda had not only their man (kabarebe) at the very heart of our defense, but they also commended DRC from kigali.
- 1998 to 2004 they tried to retake Kinshasa from Bas-Congo but failed and ended up relegated to the eastern parts of the DRC with RCD et al.
- 2004 to 2009 their control was almost limited to the two Kivus and mutebusi failing to control Bukavu, they were relegated to some parts of Nord-Kivu.
- 2009 to 2012 we managed to utilise the peace to accelerate the work in the security sector today the dividends are paying. if it was not for the rapid intervention commando battalions, M23 would have been in Masisi and Rutshuru and possibly threatening Goma if not Bukavu sending us back to the situation we had prior to 2009.
Today, it is obvious that M23 will struggle to have the influence cndp or indeed rcd had back in the years. I say this based not only on the military reality on the ground but also from the reaction in the int'l community. If back in 2004 or 2009 cndp was never labelled as a negative force by all our partners, today M23 is clearly indicted as a negative force that must be disbanded one way or another.
So, I can see some progress. they may not seem giant but they are crucial to put us back on track and gain the peace we need to focus on rebuilding our nation.
In his defense, I don't think J Kabila had much choice with the situation he inherited. Moving overt could have cost him his live. Moving covert may have allowed him to change the situation in the way I describe it above.
People may have a different perspective on how things have changed since 1996 but I would like to be optimistic and I know J Kabila will go one day but this must be done through the existing or improved institutional matrix not outside it.
Rich - July 4, 2012 at 2:19 AM
Merci. "To ko wa mpo na ekolo, mpo na Kabila te", nandimi yango.
But we should be strategic not to fall in our enemy's Malian trap. Who should be "defeated first or necessarily" as you beautifully put it? Malians decided to "defeat" ATT first in a chaos, now the Touareg rebels have split Northern Mali. Double loss!
Tozala mayele nde, to suana nakati na biso moko mpo makambo ebonga, kasi to bundisa monguna biso nionso.
muanacongo - July 4, 2012 at 2:50 AM
- Rich said...
FARDC doing very well against UPCPI in Luofu lubero since early this morning.
Soon we should get more precision but according to a source, Col Kashasha who is understood to be Kakule Lafontaine's chief escort is said to have been neutralised/killed his weapons and radio seized by FARDC.
Rich - July 4, 2012 at 3:07 AM
@Rich and @muanacongo,
I agree with you to a certain extent. But I have the impression that the attitude you want us, by us I mean the people who think that Kabila is as dangerous for the country as M23 in the long run and that we should use this time to push for a reflection on the direction our country is taking and take long lasting measures.
So the attitude you are asking us to take, is commendable, we should be united and fight by any means that we have for our sisters and brothers in the fronline. Na ndimi yango mpe.
But that attitude has to be taken by Kabila and his regime as well. How do you want us to unite around Kabila when he is polarizing the political space. Look at what is happening with Diomi, remember that Kutino is still in prison, mostly for his "sauvons le congo" mouvement. Armand tungulu is dead for throwing a stone to kabila escort, while the Italian who punched berlusconi in the face is still alive.
If we are using this public space for voicing our opinion it is because there is no space in the country for doing so. I am in Kinshasa, and I also have access to people in the security service. And all the concerns that I raise are those of all these agents who donot understand anymore why with all the information that they had provided, nothing has been done to prevent such chaos?
I would like to sokola le linge sale en famille, mais na ko salA yango wapi? Na parlement? Ngoyi mulunda alekaki na parlement et mpo na ye, Il a bien fait son boulot et c'est la faute de la Monusco qui sois disant aurait donner des info a mosengwo....
This is the attitude we get from Kabila: "we are right , we are doing things right, and if you are not happy shut up, or you will be dealt with". please read hrw report :" we will crush you ". This report is accurate and I live it everyday.
Eza na esengo te ke to zo loba Makambo ya boye. Mais espace ya discussion democratique eza te na mboka.
And mali case is th best one, soldiers and many officers I have talked with are tired of stupid orders, betrayals, lack of pay, amnution.... We might have the double loss muanacongo is refering to...
Rich, your historic of the events might be factually true. Then my question would be, was it because kabila was fearing for his life that he embezzled mining contract money or even worse let his entourage embezzle?
So in nutshel, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Accepting the true situation of our country is the first step to helping our nation. Angola is waiting in the corner and in my capacity I will never abandon my nationp, I'm demoralized as well but we have tried everything, let's try truth and democracy now.
PK - July 4, 2012 at 4:04 AM
- Rich said...
I have read your comment carefully and I must admit there are some sound points.
Now, what do you suggest?
Looking at recent events I am sure Kinshasa is listening although listening and acting in a convoluted governance machine as the one in the DRC may not always be a straight forward process. I note that the Chebeya case is reopened, I note that the current CENI committee is fighting for its life and it is not over yet, I note that the mining sector is to clarify some of the problematic deals etc...
We should not also confuse things by thinking that the opposition MUST always get what it wants and if it doesn't that means J kabila is demoralising our troops.
Ref # "Mais espace ya discussion democratique eza te na mboka."
I don't agree with the whole of this statement.
DRC is not a democracy and that is not a good news but this time a few years ago things were far more worse and you can try what you are doing here (asking legitimate questions) in rwanda to check the extent of space left for free expression between the two countries.
There is still plenty of work to be done but aggression from outside must stop and leave us in peace so that we can focus on our pressing domestic issues.
Rich - July 4, 2012 at 4:29 AM
- blaise said...
@ Rich,
I'm sorry if I sounded discouraging but I just call the cat the way I see it. The great deception here is when our leader doesn't seem to play in the same team as the rest of us.
I personally don't care about our politicians because I think they don't see the bigger picture.
I think @Pk said in other words what I was trying to convey here:"there is something rotten in Congo".
I don't personally see why we should bundle our outcry about what is going on in the East with the obvious(for me ) failure of our government to unite people.
The facts are there for who want to analyze them, there is nothing partisan here. We have the means to impose our will out there but what happen in reality?
That remind me of Mzee calling us to resist in Kinshasa while he was fleeing to Lu'shi.
I believe we have to distance ourselves from Jk as long as he won't work for Congo. We have to find other venue to support the army and the region. Some people our talking about helping civil society to support the Fardc. Those are the kind of ideas we should dwell on instead of wasting our time to figure out if Jk will be online or not. I don't have the monopole of the truth, I just give my take and contribution in order to make better sense to the reality on the ground.
@ Muanacongo
Again, it's okay to disagree. Names calling is not only disgraceful but it doesn't reinforce a point made.
Idk, living in harmony is relative. I don't know how you will qualify "anti rwandophones" widespread feelings among most of us. Obviously you did a scientific survey about the population in the Kivus and those in refugee camps. I didn't have the same privilege. I just went as far as Kalemie(Katanga). Even there, people were not fond of Rwanda and Burundi. From what I know, there is a law that define who is congolese or who is not. Unless someone made you judge in those cases, it will be preposterous to decide without fair hearing, who is who.
We have a law, leave it to the lawyers to define the parameters. Any bigotry help our enemy to justify their intervention.
Again, it's unnecessary to use your diatribe against a fellow congolese who has the same right as you to disagree. - July 4, 2012 at 4:53 AM
@ Blaise, I disagree with your comment that in Congo one cannot express his or disagreement of government or they will be dealt with. If you in Kinshasa and connot express yourself, why not join many civil societies who continue to speak out against the government shortfall. Even though the DRC is not democratic but a lot of people do criticise the government.The problems of Congo are many, you continue to point out the issue of Chebeya and Diomi, how is that related to the conflict in the east. these are domestic matters and offcourse should be dealt with. But right now we need to be all united as ever because the is an external force that is trying to take our land. Because we call for one party to be united against another party within congo, we will never win this war.
- July 4, 2012 at 5:50 AM
Rich is right, we are pretty aware of some of the real issues that u raise and that need to be dealt with. We want full democracy, rule of law and the best for our nation.
But to tell the "whole truth", it is unfair to say that "Mais espace ya discussion democratique eza te na mboka". Comparing with the recent past, we have made undeniable progress and the Congolese opposition need to be applauded for their efforts. For example:
- The opposition says everything in parliament. What about Hon. Fidele Babala who called for JK's wealth to be investigated? Taboo last year only. I thing he is not killed yet.
- Pick Le Potentiel, Le Phare or Le Barometre newspapers and see how JK and his government are criticised.
- I was positively shocked during my yearly time back home in November to see JK being called "Kanambe" on some opposition media.
- Thanks to denunciations by people like Hon. Kamhere, the dealings with Rwanda are now in the public domain, conducted by duly mandated officials and not JK's confidants as in the past.
That said, it is also true to remark that the Congolese opposition is its worst enemy. Do u guys have a common strategy, vision or objectives? U opposition guys can't listen to each other, why do u want JK to listen to u? U can't agree on anything (pre, during and post elections: have u agreed on the opposition spokesperson yet?). Bemba, Kamhere or Badibanga hate each other so much, but they require JK to love them.
We Congolese(especially opposition) should take democratisation as a process or "une lutte de longue haleine" and not a do-or-die once off event or "tour de force".We should aim to make each gain irreversible.
But all the above is not what we are talking about here. Maybe we failed to express it better.
All we are saying is, as we are working for a full democracy and rule of law, we should be united in fighting the external enemy in the Kivus. If Kagame wins, are we going to have democracy? Because in comparison to Rwanda, the less democratic DRC is a paragon of democracy that Rwandan people can only dream of.
In short, I will personally oppose (even my family) anyone who supports the Malian scenario(because they hate JK, Congo must disappear). Such a person is equally the enemy of Congolese people.
Vive le Congo de Kimbangu, Lumumba et LD Kabila
muanacongo - July 4, 2012 at 7:21 AM
You say: "We have the means to impose our will out there". We'll see how you will use all these means that you say you have to impose your will wherever on earth.
How you imagine that civil society will support the FARDC against the commander in chief of the FARDC? Mende called this the Sanogo syndrome and he is right. You know what happened in Mali with the coup d'état against ATT, because ATT had also "a hidden agenda" said Sanogo. So this coup d'état made possible the conquest of whole Northern Mali by the Touareg-rebellion.
I only can laugh with those nostalgics who are telling already since 1997, that they will do this and they will do that and that Mzee kabila was a coward and the Jk has a "hidden agenda" and blablabla
And those big mouths went to Kigali the day they thought they could regain power with the help from kagame, and then when they understood things weren't that easy, they became Kabilist and then when they realized the could not manipulate Jk, they went in opposition and every time they talk talk talk with a very big mouth but with very little deeds.
So you can play a little bit the Waldorf and Statler from the Muppetshow, but serious people know your kind very well. This is only for laughing and it will not help in the battle against M23 or Kagame. - July 4, 2012 at 7:28 AM
Brother blaise, show me a single insulting word that i have used. But i apologise if somehow there is. Personally i have no problem whatsoever with my Tutsi brothers. One of my fondest memories of my youth is a Tutsi best friend i went to secondary school in Congo in the mid 1990. But i would want u rather to debate my argument, that i maintain fully.
muanacongo. - July 4, 2012 at 7:32 AM
I support Rich and Muanacongo in their argument. It makes sense to deal with the agression of the country now instead of criticizing authorities. In comparison with Rwanda and even Uganda, DRC is doing better in democracy. As stated earlier, democracy is a process.
EM - July 4, 2012 at 11:47 AM
- blaise said...
FYI there are ppl on the ground trying to help the fardc with non military items since their own government fail them. If that is the so called sanogo syndrome, sign me in. That what I meant. Nobody is calling for a coup here. I just think we have to exploit other venue to empower ppl. If u happy that your commander in chief if silent when ppl are hacked, good for u. Reality is as long nobody else than mende will step in our pr will be awful. Mark my word jk will negociate with pk. Another crappy accord is looming. That y im mad.
- July 4, 2012 at 12:07 PM
- blaise said...
@ muanacongo
I mean gbanda or kagame agent is offensive.
An anonymous coward went with big mouth. There is a disconnect between those who think we should unite regardless that our own security is behaving like the dsp and those who think that is the government job to mobilize ppl in other to resist. There is a good reason why mobutu failed in his militaries campaigns. Talk to ppl who are actually fighting n we can have a conversation base on reality, not wishful thinking or distortion of ideas.
An elected government organizes resistance. All we can do is helping as we can. If saying that makes me an opponent, so be it. Where is l'effort de guerre mzee introduce in the early days? Let's be constructive and find ways to help instead of dreaming about a national kumbaya. Donate to heal Africa, contribute to the red cross, do something because the government is busy distributing the wealth between the few. - July 4, 2012 at 12:29 PM
@ blaise
if u like war, go ahead. I prefer peace. If jk can get peace, yes that is good. If peace is not possible, there will be war. In the two cases, discipline and high conscience is needed. Not big empty slogans about being "constructive and find ways to help l'effort de guerre" outside the government and outside the military hierarchy. If you want to play Sanogo, go ahead, you'll sea Congolese people are smarter then u. For me this conversation is finished, its wasting my time. - July 4, 2012 at 1:06 PM
I fully concur with your judgment.
As for those who admire "l'espace public de parole qui existe au pays ", let me remind them that it's always at a risk. - July 4, 2012 at 1:31 PM
- blaise said...
Of course mister, whatever u say. Comparing Mali to Congo is as weak as comparing Rwanda to Israel. I'm doing something. I help a couple ppl to have a better live out east. What are u doing beside running your wonderful mouth? Petit bitinda ya raiss perhaps?
- July 4, 2012 at 1:34 PM
And I will add that "comparaison n'est pas raison ". Congo n'est pas le Mali, JK n' est pas ATT. We have the right to criticise him even in this time of conflict as he is greatly failing us be it on security and army reform, or on corruption and governance. On many points, he is more a "collabo-à-la-maréchal-Petain " than a De Gaulle.
- July 4, 2012 at 1:47 PM
- blaise said...
Some ppl don't understand that all we need more is hope. Tell jk to give us hope and nobody will care about his shady businesses. We just need our country back. He need to talk the talk n walk the walk. Nobody his expecting him to solve all our problems. Ppl need him to lead, open opportunities for most ppl, not just talk about modernity but be the captain on the helm. Ppl need him to guide not pretend to be the wisest.
- July 4, 2012 at 1:59 PM
@blaise you summarized everything,we have lost any hope for a better futur with Kabila in power.
The problem with opposition in current congo is that the JK majority has no legitimacy drc presidential and mp eectoral process have been a huge shame. Nobody , has labeled the results of these elections as being fair, nobody. A moment that could have been used to solve our problem has been transformed to the principal cause of politjcal.instability.
Lets fight reality instead of praising mediocrity.
JK has the duty of excellence, he has this duty for the 70m of us. If he is unable tl bring us back dignity he has to be removed. - July 4, 2012 at 2:22 PM
Last part of this article summarizes Kinshasa's and JK's dilemna:
http://afrikarabia.blogspirit.com/apps/m/archive/2012/07/04/rdc-le-rapport-qui-accable-le-rwanda.html - July 4, 2012 at 3:07 PM
@blaise and all the zairois
Tango na bino ba Mobutiste esi elekaki kalaa, Zaire eza history, KABILA pe akokende kasi MOTO oyo ako remplacer KABILA akouta kaka na click ya KABILA, to lembi KIA tretre na bino, hooo e beba kaka, boza ba kagamiste kasi kagame ako zongisela bino pouvoir te. Bo linga Bo linga te FARDC ako longa. Boza ba traitre ba KAGAMISTE. - July 4, 2012 at 7:50 PM
@ mwanacongo,Rich,ELie M,congoman and all the Congolese patriots, don't waste your time responding to people like blaise and all the Mobutiste loosers .for 32years this people did nothing but running the Country to the ground and they don't want to see any development or progress taking place in the DRC. Don't let them change the subject our problem is Kagame and the war criminals who are killing our people. Honore Nganda and his followers are loosers who will never come back to power ,let them continue barking like dogs in their basement because and don't waste your time debating them. Congo is moving ahead and no one is going to stop it. the DRC is going to lead the African renaissance whether Kagame,Ngbanda,Blaise or any ether enemy of the Congo likes it or not.
- July 4, 2012 at 8:53 PM
Fair enough, it still doesn't tell us what u are doing to help your fellow countrymen. Im doing my part contribution to the red cross, one hospital, help support two kids and soon provide medications to fardc. How about u? What is your contribution? What r u doing for your country that earned u the right to anonymously be the superpatriot?
Blaise - July 4, 2012 at 9:45 PM
Hi all
Back to the issue the Congolese people trapped in aggression war in Kivus want us to address,
There is a persistent rumor that Kagame's Rwanda will be given a seat at UNSC next year by his backers. Nooooooo! That will be the height of folly. This august humanity institution, UN, can't lose what is left of its honor, by rewarding a person who systematically violates human rights, defies UN in each of his speeches, prevents MONUSCO from using Rwandan territory, harbors ICC wanted criminals…
So, all the world's people of good will, thanks for at last courageously denouncing Kagame's criminal deeds. But the next step is the most determinant: preventing Kagame from continuing committing these crimes with impunity. U will save many lives. Please lets stand up and prevent Kagame's Rwanda taking up UNSC seat next year.
But also, Kagame should be prevented from gallivanting across Western capitals in self-promotion. I always run to the toilets and vomit every year when I see Kagame invited at the WEF in Davos, talking as a "model of Democracy, Freedom and Development in Africa". Yah, that is the Orwellian world we live in.
Enough with this macabre stage acting!
muanacongo - July 4, 2012 at 9:57 PM
Because you are "agitating" for Kagamist ideas and distracting Congolese to end this Rwandan agression, who are u? A catholic nun? No. You are a 007 Kagame agent. That is not an insult, it is a description or even a qualification. - July 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM
This is so sad, so any person questionning Kabila or not liking him is Mobutist ?
And for honesty I am making a distinction between Rich and sometime muanacongo who are trying to stay in the rationality and from whom I can sense that they understand that there are fully congolese who do not think like them and all the others who are in fanatism. For whom Kabila cannot be questionned and all those doing that are followers to Kagame.
Ok, it js because thi stupid last group that we are called a failure, that our population is suffering and that we are so depend of monusco and world good will for assuring our security.
I am Congolese, and I do not like Kabila. I have reasons to do so and no one has the right to call me name because of my opinions. This is the basic level of courtusy we should agree on. Wrhen Blaise or me or any other comes with facts, you should analyze them and question at the level of opinion. Let's not reproduce stupid retoric that we see back home in this public venue. It just shows to the world how we are not ready to have a deep debate among ourselves. For me it looks like some of us are fan from the rwanda genocid law principle, anything against the president or his regime is divisionism and should be fought for. No contradiction is allowed.
I dont want to look condesendent,but some commenfs made me laugh, if Congo is moving so much in term of free speach why not joining me back home. Many writes from europe and usa with 20 dollar monthly high speed internet. Me i am in Kinshasa with. 140 dollar crappy internet from ccct (bcs the fiber optic link for which million have been disbursed is still existing on tv propaganda). I am traveling with local plane, every time fearing for my live. I dont have water permanently for 4 months, everyday i go out with water took that i need to fill to friends and sometime, i take the now infamous 207 bus aka esprit de mort. From 4pm onward i see all these people walking back home because they cant even afford the 300 congolese franc for transport.
But ok, lets forget that, lets unite around our president JK and sing a huge kumbay with one other esprit de mort : col Kanyama and gen Numbi. We will go to die for the flag under our dear leader leadership with empty stomach, without being paid, with concern that we will be betraid and die under "friendly fire" and without any hope that when dead my kids will be cared for. However, At least I will be called a true patriot by my fellow brothers comfortably seating in their chair in the country built by the white men. Really?
Who is patriot ? The one blindly following until death or the one who wants the leader to be accountable and to fix problem.
If i wanted i could be seating in the easy country that the white man has built in europe or US, however i decided to get down in the battle ground and face reality of my fellow congolese . so I have the right to question the dire reality i m living in.
Those who want unity around kabila should enroll into the army and go fight or financially support the troop or do something constructive but at very least stop calling names to people who are in daily basis trying to make difference.
Kabila as president has the duty to bring us hope and leadership. And me as citizen i have the right to question his leadership and i have the duty to help my countrymen. We want a strong army so that we never have m23 anymore and that we are protected against angola and that we live we dignity. That is the minimum.
PK - July 4, 2012 at 10:25 PM
How DRC is it going to rule when we are unable to protect ourselves. We will be strong in addressing the shortcoming of our society with lucidite.
I seriously hope that the gov of DRC will push for structural change that will stop our country to be the mockery of Africa.
Kagame is passing on Aljazeera shouting that M23 is a congolese problem and that he should not be blamed for bad leadership and bad governance in DRC.
Quote: "we should not be accused of mess in drc, period" Unquote dixit Kagame....
Until when are we going to continue giving him excuses ? He uses our weakness to hide his genocidal deeds in Kivu.
our government has to do its part, it has to be accountable. We are fighting for our country but we need government to wisely manages resources so that soldiers can focus on fighting and that they are not affraid by their own.
Any congolese as the right to an opinion and those not thinking like me, i wont call them collabo.
Lets God bless RDC and all its population. - July 4, 2012 at 11:00 PM
No one is or has ever praised KABILA on this blog, the problem with MOBUTISTS loosers like you is that efter running the Country to the ground for 32years ,you still thinking that one day you will be able to comme back to power and repeat your destruction. You have failed to understand that time have changed.this is not 1960 my friend. You might be able to control some villages in EQUATEURE like your brother JB BEMBA did with the help of Ugandan war Criminals ,but you need to forget KATANGA,KIVUS,BANDUNDU and P OREANTAL. The ether problem is that most of you are extremists tribalists who put your tribes ahead of the Country,and wish for the country to go down just unless someone from your region or tribe is in power .we are tired of your luck of patriotism . We are in this mess because your parents,uncles, failed to do their job and wasted 32 year partying, buying homes in MONACO ....your time has passed and it will never come back.
- July 4, 2012 at 11:08 PM
Is ano at 11:08 really a congolese or one Rwandese trying to give congolese a bad image. His comments is going all over the place Mobutu, tribalism, house in Monaco??????
Brothers and sisters do not respond to those who want to dragg us to the mud. It is also a communication war, and certain people need to show that congolese are unable to discuss seriously and thus they legitimate Kagame retoric. - July 4, 2012 at 11:33 PM
@PK and others
I hate to repeat it that criticising JK is every Congolese's Constitutional right. That is not at issue here. Anyone can check my and other patriots' previous comments to see how we have equally criticised our government.
Second, saying "I am a Congolese" on the anonymous Internet does not move anyone. Speaking perfect Swahili, Lingala or Tshiluba, or describing the streets of Kin, L'sh or Goma mean nothing. What I personally consider is the purpose of an argument. An authentic Congolese can be objectively aligned with the enemy; he is just as well the enemy of Congolese people.
We know the game very well now. Many who claim to be Congolese are just wolves in sheep clothing. They are surely sending these "nice" comments from Louise Mushikwabo's office in Kingali, or any Kagame's embassy around the world.
The problem I have with all these people, Blaise and maybe you also is your monotonous, unidimensional and therefore propagandist argumentation that "says exactly what Kagame is saying". Which is:
- The violence in Kivus is "uniquely" a Congolese affair. The M23 militia which is now known (UN GoE report) to come from Rwanda, came maybe from Bandundu instead.
- The only issue that can be discussed is the FDLR excuse.
How can Congo live with such a neighbour from hell, unlike the 8 others at least for now!
Now, for argument sake, say I take all your points on JK's governance, and we put that aside for now. Here are my 3 questions to you, Blaise and the like:
- Now that the criminal role of Rwanda in the wars in Kivus is undeniably established, what can be done to punish Kagame so he does not carry on? (Plz, don't mention JK here)
- Should not Rwanda be prevented from taking up the UNSC seat next year, for starters?
Plz, don't change the subject yet. The current thread is about the criminal role of Rwanda in fuelling violence in Kivus.
muanacongo - July 5, 2012 at 3:08 AM
Re reading myself it can be true that I look demoralizing. But that is an impression. I believe in our nation. And even the quality of some of these debate (not all) cleraly demonstrate that there are congolese who can agree to disagree and still look in the same direction.
If I am not focusing so much on Kagame, it is because for me Kagame is fighting a loosing battle, he will dearly pay all the blood he is helping spilling in the east. I am sceptical about Kabila and its army croonies, but I trust my congelese soldiers who are fighting in the worse ever condition and who are able to make us proud.
It is because of congolese that the congo is united, the irrational love that we have for our country is the very thing that make me optimistic.
There are 70 millions of us, and against all odds we will prevail. Let's not fight each other, but let's discuss candidely as brothers. We all have a piece of truths. We might be pro, anti Kabila, pro-anti tshisekedi, Nganda or kamerher or whoever. But in our actions, let's not betray our nation.
I will admit that there are progress, altough too slow for me , and that we must continue pushing for the best.
We cannot allow to hate each other, we do not have this luxury. Everyone of us wherever he is let's make the difference and lead by example. And if you don't want to follow me, or if for you I'm the worst idiot. No problem, you will still be my brother as this link that history has waived between us won't be broken so easily.
Eventually we will win despite our mediocre leaders.
PK - July 5, 2012 at 3:11 AM
@anonymous 11:00 PM
Hopefully, not everyone is as narrow-minded as you are. If it was the case, we would drop all hopes for democracy. Your likes would have us shut up in some sinister underground prison just for challenging your "deus ex machina", our inefectual "commandant suprême des armées". The sad fact is that you seem proud of it. - July 5, 2012 at 3:19 AM
@muanacongo I didn't see your post, the question of what do without mentioning kabila and his government is tricky. How to remove from the equation the variable that has the most weight ? The variable that can change the dynamic of the equation?
If you as a person or oraganization want to lobby the world, help foreigners who care fornthe congo, I think it will be a good initiatives many of us already do that: friends of congo, enough congo etc. They need help .
If you want to address shortcoming from the government regarding army then come create an ngo that will care for kids and family of deseased soldiers.
Do whatever you can to make a difference in real life. The fight is multi prone. Fighting from outside is equally important as fighting in the inside.
If we had government help our impact would be multiplied by 1000, because the government has the executíve and military power.
So what to do? Figure it out yourself and start acting. Let other people who are fighting in the other sector for the other dimensióñs of our problem and for the same goal for which you are fighting have at least your respect.
We should coordinate our action with some druming up support outside and others figting inside for long lasting structural change.
Kagame lmushikwabo are throwing in our face our own image, no I would say image of our politicians. They are saying that to undermine our position, we are doing that to change our situation and get to a position of power.
It is in kagame interest that we stay like this o he cantinue throwing this excuse around. It is in our interest that it Changes so we are strong enough to try him for genocide.
PK - July 5, 2012 at 3:33 AM
- blaise said...
@ Muanacongo,
Idk, it seems to me that it's impossible for you to advance an argument without launching into some kind of character assassination. You may take your queue from respectable Congolese like mr Rich and Congoman who strongly disagree with my comments and "politely" advance their counter argument. i personally respect that. At least I learn from another vantage point. That my purpose in this blog: to learn from other in order to reform my "monotonous, unidimensional and therefore propagandist argumentation".
That said, since u are the ultimate patriot, what are you doing for your country beside catching Kagame's agents like me? Simple question.Even as a traitor, I spare some changes to help here and there inside Congo. How about u?
It's obvious to me that you are not in Congo and don't realize the condition of the people you are talking about.
Another thing obvious is your ignorance of international relations in general and the mechanism of the UN in particular.
Luckily for you, I know one or two things in the matter.
For your information : there is 5 permanent members for the security council and 10(I believe) non permanent members. The former have the veto power while the latter don't. In practiced, nothing will pass if the one of the 5 permanent members invoke his veto.
In the case of Rwanda, your "rumor" it's a non event. There is a rotation system, based by regions, that allow any country to be member of the security council. The DRC was a member a year or two ago if I'm not wrong. It's Rwanda's turn now. I don't see by what magic you will prevent that from happening. You are in the wrong side of the fence.
But, let's entertain that idea, what Rwanda's presence will do in the S.C? nothing special I believe. They don't have the veto power.
How to punish Kigali? Well, unless you are among the contributors of the 40% I don't see how you will do it. The way international relation works is you( pure congolese) change opinion in the donor's country(good like with that). If there is enough outcry, the deciders will shift their position. That what people like mr Kambale Musavuli (http://congojustice.org/) are doing and not the government. That what makes me mad.
And ther is news for you, Belgium is telling Congo to negotiate with Rwanda. That means nobody will hammer Rwanda down. They may force them to negotiate but they won't push to hard because their "powerful army"(not my chose of words) is important for peace in the corn of Africa.
Last but not least, are we seriously supporting that ill decision to put ex-cndp soldiers on the front? This is not a game of "prove your loyalty", real people are dying from those sorcerer's apprentice experiments. You probably care more about the land than the poor soul who inhabit it.
Anyway, me and some friend were really entertain by your views. It helps others to probe our understanding of the matter.
Blaise, agent 007, Congo bureau,Giseny, Rwanda. - July 5, 2012 at 4:38 AM
- blaise said...
@ Pk
ty for your comments,sometimes frustration take the best of me,lol. I always laugh about "l'esprit de mort", it's remind me how funny and even derisory our people are despite so much misery. There is a brother(Gaetan,firstname.lastname@example.com )who started a NGO in kin, "Supportons Nos Troupes" a help all FARDC troops and their family in a non military assistance. They have identified 2 projets that they hope to launch on the 1st of September 2012. Hopefully I will be in.
In another matter, the us embassy in kin is taking applications to finance projects in Congo.(micro finances0. If you can spread the news that will be great.
Here is an excellent read for whoever think there is room for improvement.It's about how to handle our mistakes in general.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/keldjensen/2012/07/03/success-is-overrated-how-do-you-handle-your-mistakes/ - July 5, 2012 at 4:53 AM
- blaise said...
Our own mpesa, electronic money? should be good against inflation.
Quiz about those projects. talking still good.
http://www.afriqueredaction.com/article-rdc-six-projets-de-soutien-a-la-stabilisation-dans-le-nord-et-le-sud-kivu-107811597.html - July 5, 2012 at 5:38 AM
- blaise said...
Looks like M23 is pushing hard to be in a better bargaining position. They took over Jomba, cutting Bunagana. Another potential supply route to smuggle whatever they want. Obviously when the fight was still in Masisi and I said they need to secure the borders to cut any supply line, some patriots called me crazy and a traitor. Looks like events are unfolding has predicted. Defections maybe motivated by hope for better promotions and fiefdom, idk, just an hunch.
http://www.bradenton.com/2012/07/05/4103830/rebels-seize-strategic-village.html - July 5, 2012 at 5:47 AM
- Marc Hofer said...
well the rebels were in Jomba already six weeks ago, but couldnt hold it and retreated after half a day. Such small tactical moves are common in this area and when i was there six weeks ago, it was a constant back and forth. No one really got any important strategic positions long enough to really use them efficiently against the other side. So i would not give too much about such messages...if M23 can hold Jomba longer then 24hours and bring in enough force and heavy weapons than they could surely cut Bunagana off. - July 5, 2012 at 7:13 AM
Just last one on this Brother.
Indeed, I have been just as critical of our administration in many of my previous posts. We all love our nation equally, but can only defend it differently. Some in politics, some in the army, civil society….
Now, everyone agrees that there are 2 variables to this equation (conflict in the Kivus). The internal DRC's governance and the external Kagame's criminal deeds. However, the reason why this war has lasted so long is that we have only focused on the internal variable, which I do as well believe me (IC and Congolese like u are pushing from inside for good governance and full democracy). Today, vis-a-vis the second variable, the IC has finally started to make Kagame also accountable, and we are now bullied on this blog to shut up and only talk about JK. Make me understand why plz!
Also, if you read closely my comments you will find that my language can be colourful or even sarcastic (that's how I speak unfortunately) but I am never personal or insulting. You say that I am disrespectful (ref:" have at least your respect"),Brother Blaise says I am ignorant all the time. Are you insulting me? No, to me that is your description of me.
We have reached a time where Kagame has to be demystified and told the truth (JK also if you will). Kagame himself rants and raves all the time, especially against the UN. For the first time the DRC government has raised its voice and put aside diplomatic niceties (Mende, Tshibanda, Ikela), there has been a move.
So let some of us be nice and others be pointed.
muanacongo - July 5, 2012 at 10:17 AM
@ Blaise
Brother, I will be short,
Trust me I understand the basics of the int'l system and UN voting arrangements. Do you think Syria today would be rewarded with a seat at the UNSC, be it in non-voting capacity? Why? Are Kagame's crimes less grave? Kagame has to be denied any opportunity for grandstanding. I know you are convinced he is just too powerful, but so were Mubarak and Ben Ali.
Congosiasa is a discussion forum and not a place to tell our private lives, who we are and what we do. You really think besides you anyone else here does not "help here and there" back home? Am I supposed to tell you on this blog that I have opened back home a college in 2 provinces to teach young Congolese newest technologies of the future? Maybe that is nothing next to your grandiose achievements, pardon me. Of course I am involved in Congolese causes perhaps not at the scale of one my personal young Congolese heros, Kambale Musavili, that I follow for years through "friendsofthecongo.org".
You can be as excited as you like about Jomba "fiefdom". But who said this one was going to be easy or short. All Congolese know it.
muanacongo - July 5, 2012 at 10:23 AM
you know, it always pisses me off when so called "patriots" denounce their fellows with the suggestion that criticizing your leaders in a time of war is not patriotic.
i had to deal with that bullshit with the village idiot (George Bush II) and while it may feel good to do it let's be crystal clear what that reaction is: fascism .
blaise, pk, the anonymous com mentor, and others are not in error when they are suggesting that the weakness of the congo vis a vis Rwanda or any other power is not directly tied to the legitimacy of kabila's regime or its incompetence to extend FULL state AUTHORITY over ALL its territory.
what on earth is so dangerous and unpatriotic about that clear and present fact?
is it because others have called for kabila's removal given his incompetence? is that what has folks so worked about about such comments?
is it possible that all the failures of this government and this operation is beginning to piss off average congolese that they could entertain, or support, a coup?
folks, the congo and its long suffering people will never regain their dignity, sovereignty (a budget supported by foreigners and 10,000 UN troops does not make one sovereign) or their freedom as long as the fundamental inability of its elites to build a strong and effective STATE is not resolved.
without this resolving this central dilemma their will always be a "rwanda", or an "angola", or a "us/uk", or a "bosco", or a "nkunda", rebellions of a local flavor or supported from abroad, and the myriad of other challenges that confront the country.
more to the point, if these things cannot be debated honestly and without throwing invective and questioning people's patriotism i seriously doubt any of those things will be resolved.
short term: the congo needs to deal, militarily and politically, with the m23 rebellion and all the others in its territory.
long term: the congo ABSOLUTELY needs to reform its corrupting and self-absorbed political system so it can finally build a state that does not need clients (Belgium, the US, now China) to survive.
these things are not exclusive and i would personally appreciate it if debate in this thread- and any others- doesn't keep getting framed like they are.
jose - July 5, 2012 at 10:30 AM
- blaise said...
@ muanacongo
I will keep it long and definitive.
-About jomba: not "excited" just was conveying the development of operation,it may interest some people. Another of your lame attempt to discredit other.
-it's not a "reward", it's their turn.Idk why you like to compare apples and oranges.
- College: in american english or british? Two different implications.
You are the one super patriot who are giving people good mark or bad ones, not me. Now we are asking what you are doing for your country you go in the defensive. I guess your contribution save life. I'm proud of my grandiose impact. It's just 10% of what i'm really doing anyway and I got nothing else to tell you.I personally don't care about what you do with your life abroad.
Save your diatribe to Kagame, I don't have the stomach to read platitudes and comments from ill informed people. It may serve your ego to bring people down and attach epithets in any turn of your uneven rhetoric but that will have no impact on the ground. Giving yourself fancy names like "muanacongo" doesn't make you the first and only child coming from the womb of Congo like Liwanja.
My central idea is simple:as long as we are not putting all efforts toward solving this problem, we will fail. Any other comment is the fruit of frustration, that all. I don't care if your Kabila is there or not. I want results!
You don't like my comments, just ignore them, there is plenty people commenting here, more than 20, i don't read yours unless you attach my name on it. I don't learn anything from them. - July 5, 2012 at 12:44 PM
Groups such as Mutomboki is a normal outcome of the Kinshasa/Kigali politics in that part of the Congo for the past 15 years. They have taken matters to their own hands because no one, including MONUSCO came to their rescue when requested. This type of movement will spread because it has become a survival matter. Talking democracy, they will not listen. Their hopes for peaceful change have been killed with the last elections (international community mess, and congolese people trusted them). Kagame will point to them because he has no control over them while making the world believe that he is the man who controls that part of the world. he has forgotten that all these years, he and Kabila have not put in place a respectable, verifiable, and long-term peace. but proxy groups to continue the mess. There will be more groups like this until someone holds Kabila and Kagame personally responsible. We must stop beating around the bushes and remove the tumors from the body. By the way, from some standards, they (Kabila/Kagame) are the least evils with over millions dead since they have taken power. I am prepared to meet Hitler in heaven
- July 5, 2012 at 5:48 PM
@anonymous July 5th 5:48 pm
Very thoughtful, if really depressing, comment.
It's unfortunate this thread, like so many others, is becoming so polarized.
Mel - July 5, 2012 at 7:50 PM
- congo man said...
Wile all the attention is on RWANDA,I think UGANDA is also getting away with yet another meddling in this war . I have been to that Bunagana town and i just don't see how can the m23 put up a resistance in that erea without being supplied from across the boader in Uganda.
It's impossible to cutt off the m23's supply lines because the front line is at the Rwanda and Ugandan boaders.the only way to cut that supply line is to invade Rwanda and Uganda and create a buffer zone,or bombing their supply line from the air wich will also amount to an invasion and that will give Rwanda and Uganda the reason to openly enter the war.i think the FARDC have done a very good job by consolidating their holds on Ruchuru,Masisi and Bunagana and keeping pressure on the Rebels who have been unable to gain ground and have lost all the villages that they captured in the beginning of this offensive.now the IC pressure on Kagame is very important because he is the one supplying them.
I totally agree with you brother,this people who are trying to rescue KAGAME by changing the subject to their usual Congo bashing bs, are doing so because they don't want to see peace returning to the east. This is not the first time that the so called opposition has sided with the enemy.this happened in 1998 during the Rwando-Ugandan occupation and i think everyone still remember their alliances with the enemy during the Sun-City peace negotiations. The subject has to be Kagame and his war criminals who are again trying to invade our Country but not the election,Chichi,KABILA etc...we are at war with Rwanda and pressure has to be put on Kagame to stop his genocide against our people.trying to change the subject to the Congo or Kabila bashing bs,is irresponsible and amount to an act of treason.I don't support both KABILA or Chisekedi but I believe that the election has passed and bashing the Country is not going to change the outcome. - July 5, 2012 at 7:53 PM
@ July 5, 2012 7:53 PM
"…I totally agree with you brother,this people who are trying to rescue KAGAME by changing the subject to their usual Congo bashing bs, are doing so because they don't want to see peace returning to the east…"
- what a non sense, how does congo bashing(whatever it is) somehow rescue Kagame…and what is Congo bashing on this blog in your understanding… Stop using big and empty words that don't mean anything. Who is been "bashed"/criticized, the country as a whole or the corrupt, lying, thieving, incompetent "conglomerat d'aventuriers"(per Mzee who knew them so well) who have been in power for over a decade with their dull star as leader. I am simply puzzled at how you can equate Congo bashing with not wanting peace to return to the East
"…This is not the first time that the so called opposition has sided with the enemy"…
-This is another canard, who has sided with Kagame? How can anyone rescue Kagame by saying that Jk is an incompetent head of state, get real please, do you have any proof of your accusation or are you saying these things to sound smart. Un peu de modestie please, what do you consider incorporating army officers from Rwanda into the different branches of the FARDC starting with the AFDL,RCD,CNDP and soon M23 may be 'Solidarite Africaine"…how about allowing for a military base for Rwanda special forces to be based in the North Kivu…they are the enemy aren't they? Who made that decision?
"…this happened in 1998 during the Rwando-Ugandan occupation and i think everyone still remember their alliances with the enemy during the Sun-City peace negotiations…"
- This is another empty statement designed to mislead. If I recall correctly, there would not have been a 1 plus 4 transition if all parties did not go back to the negotiation tables (Son City2) after JK made a disastrous side deal at "hotel des cascades" at Sun City 1. - July 6, 2012 at 12:06 AM
@ July 5, 2012 7:53 PM
Suite et fin
"…The subject has to be Kagame and his war criminals who are again trying to invade our Country…"
- Invade our country? where have you been for the past 15 years, Kagame has been the kingpin in that part of the DRC for that long at least and you are talking about Kagame trying to invade(please…) he and his surrogates have been seating pretty in that part of the DRC for a while.
"…but not the election,Chichi,KABILA etc...we are at war with Rwanda and pressure has to be put on Kagame to stop his genocide against our people. trying to change the subject to the Congo or Kabila bashing bs,is irresponsible and amount to an act of treason..."
-I sincerely hope that you know the meaning of the word treason that you seem to be using so casually against people expressing their thoughts on this blog, by the way what do you call the fact of knowingly incorporating soldiers from Rwanda into the FARDC, how about authorizing the army of that country to enter the DRC without the knowledge of the national assembly( Kamere, General Etumba episodes)
"…I don't support both KABILA or Chisekedi …" –
-Please stop hiding your true face behind sentences like this… You do not support JK but are offended when his is rightfully criticized, JK is a total failure as head of state and a disaster for our nation, have the guts to acknowledge it, the mess in the East of the DRC is of his making.
"…but I believe that the election has passed and bashing the Country is not going to change the outcome…"
-No one is here attempting to change the outcome of a fraudulent election; you have the right to accept anything even fraud if that is your standard. It is not by exchanging ideas on this excellent blog and criticizing the person who as head of state for the past 11 years is responsible for the dismal state of the DRC as a nation that we are irresponsible. One is irresponsible when one ignores the root cause of a disease
and treats only the symptoms. As much as some of us are like you and believe that Kagame is at the core of the expansionist impulses of Rwanda that has caused so much death and destruction, as much some of us also believe that JK's complicity, incompetence and tragic lack of leadership are at the core of the tragedy we have been witnessing in the North East of the DRC.
"It's unfortunate this thread, like so many others, is becoming so polarized" says Mel. As long as civility is preserved it can only be so, there are
a lot of emotions when writing about the DRC but it is important to stick to the facts and remind some of us that facts are what they are facts. - July 6, 2012 at 12:08 AM
It unfair to say the mess in the East is of Kabila's making when we all know very well the war started after the genocide.I also ask my self why is the war only in North Kivu and not in other parts of the country like Equator, Kinshasa, the two Kasai where the is strong resentment for Kabila. Someone please explain?
- July 6, 2012 at 2:19 AM
folks, this constant "genocide" bit is really beginning to grate.
as many folks know I am a american jew with a congolese wife (everything, EVERYTHING, i value most in our lives she has given me...namely our 4 children).
nearly all of my family, save 2 people, perished at the daccau concentration camp during the shoal. those other two died shortly thereafter after being liberated by american troops.
at no point during any of the congo's wars was their an effort to exterminate any ethnic and tribal group in the congo.
if someone could furnish stone cold hard proof this occurred than we can argue but simply saying their was a genocide during the war doesn't make it so.
like the 40-50 million europeans who perished in ww2, the international red cross is clear that the congolese who died during the wars died because they starved to death or due to disease- not as a result of death in the battlefields or a systematic attempt based on government policy to eradicate them.
those are the facts folks and it is insulting, not only to them but to those who have actually suffered genocide to keep using this word to describe the awful waste of human life that occurred during the wars.
if you are going to argue a point on this blog please start with the facts and not invective. one can make a sound argument for depravity at the hands of kigali without resorting to lies and distortions.
its called being an adult and i am sure everyone who comes here is....
jose - July 6, 2012 at 3:53 AM
The M23 has taken Bunagana BBC report
- July 6, 2012 at 4:38 AM
- blaise said...
@ Congoman
I said a lot of things, most of them are still in the archives of this blog.
-I said at the start of the war that the Fardc should cut off any supply lines. That was when it was in the masisi
-I said it wasn't a good idea to arrest Bosco at that time, that was when Kabila went to Goma.
- I said it was a curious idea to have ex-cndp fight m23, some people think it was a good loyalty test.
-I said Kampala and Dar es salam are providing fuels to the fire as well
Most of the time I'm the unpatriotic one.
To answer to your argument, I think it still possible to cut to isolate those groups.
I still think an aerial bombardment campaign can seriously cripple the M23 capacities.You don't exactly carry those heavy weaponry in sideways. I just feel they don't give them enough hard time.( Makenga is still using a 243 number how come?)
I'm not a military expert, It just happen that I've been around military personal for a younger age. Beside what I experienced in Kalemie during moba 1 and 2, I've been curious about the military for a while.
1/2 - July 6, 2012 at 4:54 AM
- blaise said...
I just been puzzle about the way those operations are conducted. I'm jsut asking questions, a non partisan puzzlement:
- why ex-cndp in the front? Tuareg fighting Tuareg didn't work out well for mali. Even Masanzu's splinter group wasn't a success in South kivu
- why the soldiers are not paid and those notorious for stealing their pay are not punished?
- Why the president is keeping a deafening silence?
- why the ANR doesn't arrest those who have been supporting the rebellion, confiscate their belonging and neutralize them for good?
- why is so hard to have justice in Congo?
- why the government does take care of those IDP and refugees?
-why commandos are fighting in the infantry?
-why the EMG announcing "imminent attacks" and "counterattacks" when the whole idea of the war is surprise?
- like Mario said, why always us?
My critic about Kabila's regime(not the person) is that the government is outsourcing his responsibilities. It should have been the government's obligation to:
- establish the facts about Rwanda
- arrest any conspirator(some are still in Goma)
- prevent those alliances for happening in the first place.
Arguably, unity should come before criticism. In the same time, unity should not be an empty vessel but a genuine belief of togetherness: we live together, we die together.
Winning a war is an organization. Learning from one mistake is the first step to achieve success.As far as I can tel, the government is making the same mistakes militarily and diplomatically. War as politic is based on deception. Pointing to the enemy weaknesses while exaggerating your strength is the key to victory.
You want to defeat Rwanda? Beat them on their own Game. To JK's credit, he partially succeeded in defusing Kagame's strategy. Unfortunately, he still doesn't capitalize on his successes. He seems to be satisfy with temporally solutions while squandering golden occasions to deliver a blow to Kigali once for all.
Jk need to hire a PR specialist to help him make powerful friends. In the same time, he need to project an image of Congo that will excite those friends to support us. That image of "modernity" has to be a reality not an empty slogan. Nobody expect a miracle but the idea that we are heading to the right direction will be enough to win the internal and exterior wars.
People don't care who is in charge as long as they think there is a future for them. The average Congolese is convince that corruption is the only way around. It's up to the government to change that perception. That's the Rwanda game plan. We are losing because we are perceive as losers. They are winning because they are perceive to be winners. there is a potential in Congolese that the government is failing to capitalize. that the source of my frustration. The invisible RDF has been beaten before, all it will take to do an encore is an truly engaged government. It's just not happening yet. Asking questions is the only way to bring to them this awareness. - July 6, 2012 at 4:54 AM
@ Jose
stop that "I am jew married to a congoles nonsence". So what? Who cares? Yet all your opinions are against congo and pro your friends. You want want to deny the congolese genocide as if the word apply just to some.
Just stop that childish and condisending nonsense. take congolese on in the open. - July 6, 2012 at 5:15 AM
Can someone tell me, how strategic is the town of Banagana. I really don't understand why FARDC is struggling with all the equipment they have. This is just getting worse. What is even frustrating is Kabila silence. If I was him I would be in Goma by know monitoring the situation. No wonder people people are questioning his loyalty, maybe he is a Rwandan after all, I have never come across such a quiet leader who's planns are not clear especially in such a crisis
- July 6, 2012 at 5:22 AM
winning wars is not only about equipment. Morale has a lot to do with it. What is the point of fighting for a government that has done nothing for you and that has diluted the army with all these peace accord not respected. Kagame still using some of these groups in the DRC. When you look at the army history for the past 20 years or so, Mobutu started the decline and Kabila (father and Son) sped it up with an unthoughtful integration plan not executed at all. Do not ask of Kabila something he does not have: leadership. Silence: at this time, that is the best he can do. This situation is of his own making by rewarding killers and looters as well as his track history, what can he say? I promise .... everyone knows he will not respect it and Kagame will undermine it. A "badly" elected president seen by his population as illegitimate. Your godfather (kagame) messing you up. Trust me, no one wants to be in his shoes. who on his right mind will fight for that kind of government?
I do not know the details but from what I read, M23 is made of every groups Kabila and Kagame screwed aided by local militias. - July 6, 2012 at 6:17 AM
@ jose
A little explanation here: our politicians have the bad habit of simplifying complex legal matters in order to galvanize masses like talking about Congolese 's genocide. You should know by now how dangerous is a person who doesn't understand basics notions of international laws and customs:wrong premises result to bad solutions.
blaise - July 6, 2012 at 6:19 AM
600 soldiers crossed to ouganda. Prisoners? We are a laughing stock now.
Blaise - July 6, 2012 at 6:33 AM
@ Blaise
"In the same time, he need to project an image of Congo that will excite those friends to support us. That image of "modernity" has to be a reality not an empty slogan."
I agree with Blaise-You're a genius!
I would be the happiest person to see Congolese transfer their test for dressing(Fashion)to marketing Congo. We're very creative by nature..
A 3D model-vision/future of Congo(Airports, highways, schools, hospitals, etc.), is being designed, so it can be presented to Congolese civil society and government. Civil society will be encouraged to sensitise the population at making the government implement it.
Its a revolution that will be very interesting and challenging, as artists, designers, Architects, Propagandists, etc. will for the first-time in Congo, work together.
That's why its imperative- that we rally behind our brothers and sisters of FARDAC at uprooting Rwanda/Uganda murderers and their collaborators from our motherland.
I'm very sure many Congolese have dreams of what a great Congo would look-like, imagine every Congolese home having solar stoves, lighting, etc??? We have to start building Congo
Rutshuru/London - July 6, 2012 at 6:33 AM
Just have some talks with Goma and Bukav and that is what I heard, disclosure this is not a scientific account but at least it gives you an idea of the army mindset.
According to my sources fardc supported by Monusco contained RPF/M23 bunagana attack during the day. during the night RPF engaged a whole brigade that changed power balance and that was unexpected from Fardc/Monusco. Srenght of that attack took congolese by surprise and that disorganized their defence.
Also it seems that the commandant operation Vainqueur mayala is also amongst the congolese soldier in Uganda. It seems he fell into an ambush when he was leading a platoon that had to replace an ex-cndp/Fardc platoon. When they arrived they found the place was hold by RPF/M23. They couldn't sustain the fight and retreated to Uganda.
According to the same sources, the ex-cndp fardc platoon did not turn to RPF (????) but decided to leave their position before the replacment Led by Mayala arrive. RPF/m23 just peacefully took over their position, consolidated and waited for fardc led by Mayala to arrive and catch them by surprise.
Soldiers are extremely upset by hierarchy and start to clearly point JK has main responsible of this fiasco. They don't understand that ex-cndp fardc troops are cuddled, given heavy weapons and are always one way or other slowing down operations. They also not understand why helicopters are taking off for frontlines from Goma which is infiltrated by Rwandese. They have the impression that all RPF is aware of all their movements and that are inflitrated by traitors.
Even heard that Gabriel Amisi Tango fort chief of staff of infantry has confided to some that as a Congolese this situation is upsetting him, but he is affraid of dying. If it wasn't for the ICC, he would have went to exile with familly....
Now people are waiting for Monusco reaction, where emotion is high after deaths and injury of blue helmets. People fear that Monusco decide to lower its engagment and withdraw from direct fight against RPF along with FARDC which it was doing these last days.
This story might not be totally acurate, but they are symptomatic of the mindset of the congolese soldiers who are putting their live in line for the country.
Bunagana empty all population and soldiers in Uganda. RPF/M23 of Makenga and Ntanganda, Rwandese citizens and labeled as worst war crime perpetrator by UN right comision,are parading in bunagana and asking population to return.
I will let anyone draw his own conclusion. Very sad day fpor my country.
PK - July 6, 2012 at 6:42 AM
According to my source the still fighting in Bunagana so it's not over yet
- July 6, 2012 at 7:21 AM
Self-fulfilling prophesies weavers revel in the "I told you so" song.Enjoy while it lasts.
But, clearly this should be the last time that Congolese villages are taken without a fight. Ex-CNDP naively trusted with protecting these just left them to the RPF soldiers to occupy, in Jomba and Bunangana.
Now the DRC government cant never never never again let the ex-CNDP(M23 friends) fighting on the frontline. How many times have we said that, let us lose fighting than lose betrayed from inside, because we want to prove to the world our good will to integrate the CNDP/M23 into Congolese society?
But more important, the world can't tolerate MONUSCO soldiers trying to protect civilians killed by Kagame like flies, just because he can. This is the time for the UN ever to uphold its human values. The DRC and Rwanda must be compelled to let their borders be monitored by MONUSCO soldiers. The UN ,and all people who believe in your statutory human ideals are waiting.
To Congolese people, we will be ridiculed, betrayed or even we will lose battles. But Congo will prevail. Tenons bon!
muanacongo - July 6, 2012 at 7:50 AM
This post is still so much related to what is going on in the east that I am posting it again to join Blaise and like minded people on this blog. As long as we do not put the finger on the main problems at the root of the DRC tragedy internally, there is no moving forward possible. Incompetence, complacence and a crying lack of leadership at the highest level of the DRC's government are the culprits. It is messed up at the top, how can the rest be ok. Any society/nation needs a competent leadership to solve its main problems something that the one in power today completely lacks.
Blaise said...
"500 cops forgotten in Mbuji mayi, soldiers unpaid for months, ghost workers in the administration, the quietest president in the world(beat Kim jong Un),etc : how are we supposed to win this war?Even LeRoy is complaining by our lack of organization."
I am sorry to go back to something that I have said many times before. As long as JK is the
head of state in the DRC don't expect anything different for what is happening in the kivus
(or on any other subject in the DRC as a matter of fact). What is happening with M23 is the sequel of the same horror movie that has been playing over and over for the past 15 years with basically the same actors. JK is a product of the FPR/AFDL and was molded by James Kabarebe, who we were told was a DRC citizen and who was the chief of the DRC Armed Forces for one year under Mzee.
I lifted these lines in French from an article by Christopher Rigaud titled:
« Kabila dans le piège rwandais » 27 juin, 2012 :
… le lien très fort du président Kabila avec le ministre rwandais de la défense, James Kabarebe. Le militaire rwandais a en effet formé le jeune Joseph Kabila « aux arts de la guerre » pendant la chute du régime Mobutu en 1997. Kabila doit tout à Kabarebe… et Kabarebe connaît tout de Kabila…
I am again sorry to say that I do not believe that JK can fix the situation in the Kivus
to the satisfaction of the DRC citizens who feel violated year after year by what Rwanda
has been allowed to get away with in the Kivus with the help of JK and his cronies (mixage, brassage, integration…). This help, has allowed for the complete infiltration of the DRC armed forces by officers and soldiers from Rwanda. Is this to the advantage of the DRC as nation ??? I said it before JK has been in power for more than 10 years this is a very long time, enough time to organize, train, equip, pay and moralize an army. The DRC is a big country; this army could have been built from scratch some where in the Bas-Congo, Katanga, Equateur…In my eyes the will to create this new and strong army was never there(as is the will to govern for the betterment of the DRC Citizens). It was and still is intentional to keep the Armed Forces of the DRC weak. Today after more than 10 years of JK rule, some people are still talking about trying to restructure the Armed Forces of the DRC. The Armed Forces were never restructured or build from scratch because the ones ruling the DRC have never wanted a strong Armed Forces.
The relationship between JK and the elite in power in Rwanda is way too cozy for him to go against the will of his former comrades in arms (semper fidelis) in the FRP/AFDL as he owes everything to these comrades who know every thing about him. We can never win this war because the Trojan horse has been at work.
Bismark - July 6, 2012 at 7:51 AM
Always thought congolese spoke french, didnt know so many were fluent in english.
What about bringing this discusion to french for al the french speaking of yours ? - July 6, 2012 at 8:23 AM
@ Jose,
The genocide in DRC has been documented in the famous 2010 UN Mapping Report and published in this blog as well back in August 26, 2010 as such (http://congosiasa.blogspot.com/2010/08/un-mapping-report-leaked-crime-of.html). It is not the Congolese nor the government of DRC who discribed what had happened to the Hutus in DRC as a Genocide, but the DRC UN Experts team. So you need to check your own facts before accusing others. If we follow your argument, jews who died in concentration camps, and not other fire, shouldn't be count as part of the genocide? I think the Congolese has the right to call what is happening to them whatever they want and not way for the UN or foreigners like you to label their nightmare; we will continue to call it genocide, if we feel like it.
Emotola - July 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM
Emotola, that report has been suppressed by the UN permanent members. But will be used in some point in the future to get even with someone, but not to deliver justice. They can brand anytime 1 of the players is out of line. The people must organize themselves for protection. No one will protect them. Most congolese have spoken, debated, approached that same international community. Result is what everyone predicted all along. My personal view, forget about the UN, international community, etc... they have done more arm than good. Let the folks on the ground organize. It is another chapter for our history but the solution has to come within Congo. There will be slippages here and there, but we will overcome it because we will learn the biggest lesson of all: how to protect our country ourselves. I more and more agree the US law of citizen right to bear arms.
- July 6, 2012 at 10:13 AM
This turn was about facts-checking on M23! For those who got a glimpse of the whole report, you will come to conclude that the buck stops with JK! His initiated and negotiated with Rwanda, put in place the parallel cndp chain of command and made the war-staging as bargaining tool in the DRC! Rwanda has to be blamed too!
Suggest that insulting comments and others rodomontade
be banned from this forum! - July 6, 2012 at 11:57 AM
Kabila traitre! Kabila demission! Kabila complice de Kagame!
- July 6, 2012 at 12:56 PM
- blaise said...
@ Emotola,
The crime of genocide has a different definition and implication as crime of war and crime against humanity.What our friend was trying to say, the motive, what is the intention, doesn't put it in necessary put it in that category. Beside, it's the Un who qualify what is what.
The mass killings will be genocide only if the intention was to systematically kill a group(like the lega) not congolese in general for example.
In penal law, an assassination has a different sanction than a murder because it's with premeditation.
So far, the crime in congo are more war crimes and crime against humanity. It's hard to make a case for genocide and it's political too. Armenia still waiting for their to be classify as such. - July 6, 2012 at 12:57 PM
this wholl scenerio makes me lough..how can a battalion of 600 troops run away from a few hundred rebels without a fight?if u cant defeat the enemy then negotiate its that simple.i hate to say this bt it seems like when ntaganda was in controlling of the wholl kivu theres was peace now its a damn mess.congo leadership is fucked up n u cant blame kabila for keepin quiet.how can you fight an army that installed u in power??the problems in congo r deeper than what ppls just talk rubish on this webside.pk even said that some ppls in the west r tryin to use him to remove kabila but refused bt if he tries to bring angola n nambia or zimbabwe again like his dad did that will it for him.his got no choice to listen to kagame's demand cause they r holdin jk's serious secrets of how he became president
- July 6, 2012 at 1:07 PM
- blaise said...
@ Rutshuru/London
U are absolutely right. There is a need to rally behind the Fardc. No doubts about that. The brainstorming process require us to ask the central question: how can we get there?
I see two ways: through civil society(the hard one) or through the government(the easy way).
The bottom line is the government had to do more than what they are doing because it's their duty, that's the job they sign for.
We don't know yet the exact circumstances that surrounded the debacle of Bungana but from what @ Pk is saying there was an ambush, some treason, some back stabbing from Rwanda,etc.
All I ask is why our commanders are so surprised when Rwanda or Uganda outflank them? It happened before and they seems to keep repeating the same move(ndlr remember cnl Padiri offensive and subsequent retreat when Goma was about to fall?Same tactic). I won't be surprise if they were just fooled by the idea that the RDF was attacking(used at Pweto under LDK).
From what @PK said, I found it curious that a general will lead a recon platoon.
Even more curious, a commando unit is supposed to work behind enemy lines.
What is rumors on the street is news for the average Congolese. I can just imagine how many wild stories are spreading around.
I hope that the government will learn from it's mistakes and rectify the path before it's too late. In a poker game what others believe it's more important than the reality. - July 6, 2012 at 5:21 PM
- blaise said...
Apparently general Mayala is back from Uganda. No confirmations.
- July 6, 2012 at 7:21 PM
- congo man said...
Don't get me wrong, I agreed with you on that strategy of cutting of their supply line but i just think it was very difficult because of the proximity of the front line to the Rwandan and Ugandan territories.yes I think hair power is very crucial in this situation. I know that you are not a military strategist but when it comes to the short comings in the FARDC mos of the time I agree with you, but I think the FARDC has comme a long way and there is a lot of improvements but they still is a lot of cleaning to be done. I think many of the former rebels have no place in the position of command and some and I just don't understand the reason why General ETUMBA accepted some former CNDP to take part in this offensive. Those people should be far away from the kivu in place like Kitona. Despite all this I am very confident the FARDC will pull this of .I don't agree with those who are now calling for negotiations or pushing for a quick solution. They need to ask Kagame to negotiate with the FDRL and MUSEVENI to enter a power sharing deal with CONY. The Congolese people are tired of being short changed by the IC. - July 6, 2012 at 7:32 PM
a few quick (mostly) comments:
@ Anonymous JULY 6, 2012 5:15 AM
did momma teach you to be as a__shole or is that just how you roll in the world? my basic response to you is I don't have to prove a damn thing to you and, for someone who is calling into question my identity, I find it a little like the pot calling the kettle black that you failed to reveal your own identity in your post.
@ Bismarck
miss your voice on these threads! glad you take the time to weigh in from time to time however. always illuminating.
@ Blaise
brother, believe me when I say that I promise to be VERY vigiliant to ensure the world never again has an American president who so willfully warped international law (and our domestic ones) in the name of "security'. now, sure, I am a New Yorker so I am in the bluest/Democratic of states so I'm not sure how effective I'll be but I promise to do my best as a global citizen! or really, its up to anand- our texan- to turn his state democratic. thanks a bunch, as always, for your particularly insightful comments and explaining my comment to Emotola. still waiting for us to colloborate on that rebel game, bro!!! LOL.
to be very clear, you and every Congolese (and really anyone I suppose) are free to call the deaths of WAY too many Congolese during the war whatever you want. and to be clearer, in no way am I trying to compare the suffering of my people (the Jews) during The Shoal to that of the Congolese in the wars of the 90's. the death of any innocent human being is a stain on the whole of humanity- all 6 billion of us- and the only thing that comforts me for those who have passed as a result of the depravity of men is that they get to gaze, for all eternity, at the blessed face of our Creator.
but as I said, and blaise explained, crimes against humanity during a war does not a genocide make. we live in a world of laws (well, most of us anyway) and international law is very clear on this difference. i really do not want to live in a world where distinctions in the law as it relates to criminal offenses are not present because that means their is no justice and no accountability.
and i am fairly certain you don't want to live in such a world either.
we must be able to accuse those who commit crimes, try them justly, and- if they are guilty-punish them so that we can have justice and its sister- peace. for the millions who died during the wars in the Congo there has been no justice so it should not surprise us that there has been no peace in the region where so many of them perished.
in calling what happened in the Congo a genocide, when the facts and the law suggest this did not occur, you are denying those who perished- and their survivors- the opportunity to hold accountable those who are most to blame for their deaths. and as a result, you are denying them justice and peace- and that of your homeland.
why? to prove a point? to stick it to the jewish "foreigner"? if it makes you feel good to use "whatever you feel" to describe the continuing injustice of the near constant and unceasing violence too many Congolese live with on a daily basis, you are free to call that whatever you want.
it doesn't make it true, however, nor does it get us any closer to raising the dignity of the Congolese and their plight to the world at expressly the time when it would be useful to do so.
we must live, all of us, in the world of the truth because it does set you free.
thanks for the tango and your commitment to your people. this Jew "foreigner" shares it and always will.
jose - July 6, 2012 at 7:42 PM
- blaise said...
@ Congoman
I agree that there is no easy fixes. I just believe that the way this campaign is conducted it's fundamentally wrong.There seems to have little efforts to inspire a sense of solidarity among the troops. Rivalry exist in every armies but the sense of common purpose and solidarity keep soldiers together. I think that is lacking.
Another thing is the "integrated" troops are mostly guerillas fighters, they are not trained to hold fixes positions.
Even more, the Fardc announce in advance what they will do next. A war is a a surprise business.
The people who are pushing for negotiation are external donors. Like I pointed before, the M23 doesn't necessarily have the means to take over the Kivus. They are using those conquest as bargain chips for future negotiations (based on past experiences).
The Ic it's an amalgam of interested parties, they are not there for justice.
To stick to a military point of view, I will strongly recommend to the government to change it's way of viewing and treating his soldiers. I won't jump into conclusion to condemn the 600 before analyzing the condition of their retreat. As far as the brand is concern, it's embarrassing for us.
If you read radiookapi, you maybe frustrated like me when you read that our soldiers are ransoming and mistreating the population they are supposed to protect.
At the end of the day, it's not my job to unite the country but that's the government prime responsibility. The same cheerleaders who pushed Mobutu to it's demise are surrounding JK today. a little dose of reality may help him make history. that all I'm about. - July 6, 2012 at 8:08 PM
- blaise said...
@ Jose,
you know that FAR CRy 2 was loosely based on that(with a mobutu's like character? Even Splinter cell, double agent?
It's a shame that the UNHCR doesn't go as far to bring awareness to the plea of refugees and IDP.
You may like some Djo Munga's Viva riva, an easy thriller (too french,lol) but refreshing. Always happy to help a brother out by buying the movie. As bana panam will say, "represents" in a french accent of course.
Last but not least, check out that book by Paul Collier : the bottom billions, mind blowing facts and analysis about conflicts and wealth curses.
ty for your interest to congo - July 6, 2012 at 8:24 PM
- blaise said...
@ jose
i told Mel I wasn't confident about democrats in charge in America. The Clinton bunch have been screwing us since 1995. Obama may have some good intentions but the clinton wing are fanatics supporters of Rwanda and uganda.
Democrats maybe good for america but Bush helped more than anyone of them. Maybe because for them business is more important than anything else. idk. - July 6, 2012 at 8:28 PM
@ Emotola
Don't bother about the Congolese genocide deniers. It is always difficult to engage with uninformed fellows whose view of the world is confined to their surrounding "milieu". No wonder they resort to inconsequential insults and swearing and never debate with arguments. It is even harder to make them understand that any law is underpinned by a historical and political context, and it always reflects power relations of the time. But history is stubborn.
How long was it before the Belgium parliament recognized their deeds and said apologized to Congolese people?
For example, there is a tension between Europeans particularly France vs Turkey over the "Armenian genocide"? Was it a genocide or not? Was there a "Gypsies genocide"? Who should decide whether or not there was? How about tensions between Japan vs China and South Korea?
You see the world is not just about Republicans vs Democrats out there.
In any case, the skin is thick. Justice for Congolese people will take place.
muanacongo - July 7, 2012 at 12:04 AM
We really appreaciate your insight concerning international laws and so on... but at this point we are more concerned about the ugly situation that our brothers and sisters in the East of Congo are in,all this is induced by Rwanda.We need as many people as possible to condemn P kagame than to lecture us on what genocide is or is not.
@blaise,Rich,muanacongo,congoman and Bismark
You guys are amazing,I like your comments,very insightful. Even though you differ on many points,it is just interesting to Read your comments and we are learning a lot. keep it up and always respectfully....
AJ - July 7, 2012 at 12:10 AM
@ aj
Sorry if i offended u, I promise to behave.lol. its good to brainstorm together in order to correct our preconception. Believe me, I learned a lot here and most ppl have good manners as far as I'm concern.(get to keep my sarcasm into check, lol) .
English is not my natural language, I guess sometimes things are lost in translation. My bad.
blaise - July 7, 2012 at 12:50 AM
Most of soldiers who flew to Uganda are from the 103rd composed of ex cndp and apareco. Most of non "mixed brigade" , lets call them congolese, retreated to Rutshuru when they realized that there was something fishy.
That again raises issue on loyalty, combat readiness and even combat willingness from former Ntaganda comrades. - July 7, 2012 at 6:52 AM
I learn a lot on this blog myself, I am just happy to have the opportunity to contribute with my little share to the discussions on the DRC. It is only normal that people differ on many "talking" points, that is the beauty of the discussions. I would like to thank all the people you have mentioned and other anonymous for their positive contributions. As long as the head of the DRC is messed up as it has been for over a decade plus, the body will be too. Treating the symptoms of a disease is important but removing the cause of the disease is even more so. It is my conviction that this is the fundamental problem of the DRC.The frontal Lobe of the brain - involved with decision-making, problem solving, and planning does not work, a lobotomy is called for.
Bismark - July 7, 2012 at 7:09 AM
WRT to Mapping Report (which can be viewed on
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/AfricaRegion/Pages/RDCProjetMapping.aspx) on the question of genocide, below is the bottomline:
Para 123. The issue of whether the many serious acts of violence committed against Hutus in 1996 and 1997 constitute crimes of genocide can only be decided by a competent court.
Para 510. There has been extensive debate on the question of genocide directed at the Hutus, and to date it remains unresolved. It can only be decided by a court decision based on proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The Mapping Exercise is not a judicial mechanism and the evidence gathered is not sufficient to satisfy the high standard required by the courts.
Just a reminder that it is not only the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA) that is accused in the mapping report of possibly being responsible for war crimes, but also Alliance des Forces Démocratiques pour la Libération du Congo (AFDL - Kabila's militia), the Forces armées burundaises (FAB) (Burundian Military), and Uganda People's Defence Forces (UPDF - Ugandan army) and the Forces armées zaïroises (FAZ - the Zairian Army). - July 7, 2012 at 7:23 AM
thanks for the comment. I believe the truth and justice, for everyone, is important and in difficult times it is really important to pursue both. if you consider that a "lecture" that's fine but I'm going to keep telling the truth, ok?
also, I pretty firmly disagree with your implication that all the problems in the east are Rwanda's fault. i acknowledge they are an aggressor and should be condemned (or invaded if the congolese had the ability to do this) but what does that do? Will getting rid of Rwanda-backed rebellions end the home grown ones in the Eastern Congo? Why do so many Congolese feel the need to not respect the ruling regime in Kinshasa and start all these rebel groups?
we Americans had to learn in Vietnam and Iraq (and Afghanistan) that you can drop all the weapons of mass destruction on a "aggressor" all you want. Israelis have also tried this. Yet do not Palestinians continue to ask their young to put bombs on their bodies and blow up Israelis? Did not the Viet Cong continue their valiant fight to defeat Americans? Did not Sadr and his fellow sunnis continue to put bombs on the road to kill Americans?
we need a political solution to the problem in the East (and within rwanda itself) which requires a regime in Kinshasa that understands how to do this. Not complain about Rwanda's duplicity which everyone knows is how they operate in the world.
they have had 11 years to figure it out and what has been the result?
so sure, let's get the world to hate Kagame and sanction his regime and whatever else we want Kigali to feel and do.
i just seriously doubt that, alone, will get to the root of the problems in the Congo that leads so many Congolese in the East to form militia after militia after militia.
just my opinion.
jose - July 7, 2012 at 7:24 AM
@ Anonymous JULY 7, 2012 7:23 AM
thank you. as i've commented on before on this blog when the mapping report came out there is potentially a case for a genocide that targeted hutus- not native congolese. like the 24 million russians who perished in ww2 because they were peasants forced to flee their fields given they became battlefields, we have a similar situation with the 6-7 million congolese who essentially met the same fate.
that isn't a genocide and, as I said, it is insulting to them and does not honor their memory by conflating these things.
i am aware kabila's "parrots" visit this blog as do kagame's. it actually keeps this blog lively if bereft of things like the truth. i do disagree with your contention that rich and muanacongo are indeed parrots. broadly speaking, they are incredibly informative bloaks who clearly love their beloved congo. i just believe it is important to be realistic about the world as it is- not as we wish it to be. my conversations with family in Israel as it relates to the our conflicts with palestianians and the broader arab world is actually far more volatile than any i have had on this blog. inspite of all the problems in the great lakes, i'm fairly certain its people are tired of constantly battling each other, death, and violence whereas in the middle east issues of historical grievance, religion, power, and identity keeps everyone so willing to pull out the gun and kill each other.
as we say in america, the israeli/palestianian/arab problem is a classic clusterfuck.
the great lakes? its a problem but one that i believe will one day be resolved.
so, while an realist i do have hope about the congo's future.
jose - July 7, 2012 at 7:47 AM
Dude, your upset by swearing on a blog?
Do you visit American blogs much? Hell, do you ever watch American cable political shows?
Um, yeah, we Americans like to cuss and swear when making political arguments. Jose has revealed he is a New Yorker and trust me when I say New Yorkers engage in the most volatile, profanity filled political arguments with abandon.
Just watch any Martin Scorcese or Spike Lee film and you will see it in plain sight.
Its the mark of a free and dynamic people and the Congolese who comment here should get used to this culturally American trait.
I could see it if this was an academic blog but it isn't so the rules of engagement are different. The guy who insulted Jose's wife with his arrogant comment deserved a verbal smackdown and Jose delivered.
If we want to keep things high brow than let's leave people's loved ones out of our comments. If you choose not to do this than be prepared for a verbal attack. - July 7, 2012 at 8:08 AM
The figures everyone likes to quote on the millions of deaths that have occured in the DRC since 1998 comes from a series of mortality studies done by the International Rescue Committee. As several people have already pointed out, most of the deaths are attributed to easily preventable and treatable conditions such as malaria, diarrhea, pneumonia and malnutrition; less than 10 percent of all deaths were due to violence.
Here is a quote from the most recent version of the IRC report:
While insecurity persists in the eastern provinces, only 0.4 percent of all deaths across DR Congo were attributed directly to violence. As with previous IRC studies in DR Congo, the majority of deaths have been due to infectious diseases, malnutrition and neonatal- and pregnancy-related conditions. Increased rates of disease are likely related to the social and economic disturbances caused by conflict, including disruption of health services, poor food security, deterioration of infrastructure and population displacement. Children, who are particularly susceptible to these easily preventable and treatable conditions, accounted for 47 percent of deaths, even though they constituted only 19 percent of the total population. - July 7, 2012 at 8:56 AM
The problem with some people is that they don't read and just repeat propaganda. The mapping report is 500 pages long and I guess too long.
Another thing it's the importance of knowing how rapports between States work and that legality is not necessary morality.
I particularly appreciate Rich's comments because he put things in prospective and bring in more sources. Congoman does that as well and a good bunch of informed but anonymous sources.
To elaborate on what somedody said: u don't want shit, don't start shit .
Blaise. - July 7, 2012 at 9:38 AM
It is simply appalling that the vast majority of deaths during these conflicts have been children.
It just breaks my heart.
Mel - July 7, 2012 at 2:17 PM
Fardc have left Rutshuru without fight. With no RDF/M23 in sight. When I woke up it was the first message I received. When I called back to have more info. Was told that soldiers are kind of mutining against chief of staff because he is not giving them the means to fight. Again they complaint agains treason from the highest level of the hierarchy. They redeployed at Kanyabayongo.
For all of us not making the link between internal drc politics and war in the east, they have the proof that they are wrong.
For me Kabila is executing a plan that he devised with Kagame. The plan to destroy our country. Even those fighting arrived at the same conclusion and realized that they were sent to sure death by those in charge of leading them to victory. Kabila in purpose is making us lose in front of all the rwandian backed militias. So that he can use negotiation , that he lead himself, for inflitrating more our army and institution with Rwanda elements.
With Kabila at the head of our country the Rwandes will be back in Kinshasa soon through so called political negotiations.
Kabila has to be removed, and tried for high treason.
On the genocide point, I think that our population in south kivu have been killed because of war and fallout that were intended to decimate them. So even though the judicial standard might not be reached. The moral standard is reach and for me the intent is there . My position, period. I do not really care for the importance we need to use correctly the word genocide and its relation with the Jew genocide and the reason to honor their memory in using correctly the G word. This is a sterile debate, ultimately we have millions people who are dead and who do not care on how their deaths is labeled. For me what went on in drc was a genocid because there was a clear intent of killing a specific ethnic group the bantu (first rwandese hutu and then congolses ) by war and attrition by an ethnic group the tutsi.
And that is the basis of the problem we have today. The negation of an entire group sufferance. These are my feeling and if you don't think the same, then so be it.
That doesn't mean that I disrepct you @Jose, just that I do not agree with you lecture of that specific point. While we are on phase on many others.
For all of those having friends in govrnment it is time to ask them to openly question JK and start standing up against this huge farce happening in front of our eyes.
PK - July 8, 2012 at 8:01 AM
Very good opinions here and unfortunately some others are based on misinformation. First of all, Jason Stearn misses the point very often when he sees the slutions of the historically marginalised Rwandophone community or Congolese Tutsi as numeric political and military representation that is worked out within peace agreements. The issue itself has never been resolved, in South Kivu, extremists militias groups continue to kill innoccent Banyamulenge, has HRW ever reported that? During elections candidates compete based on the level of extremism against Tutsi groups. As long as this issue ever been resolved at grassroot level and in leadership, DRC will remain in crisis. What is shocking is that DRC and wider congolese people do not even recoginise Congolese people are equal citizens. Banyamuleng took arm in 1996 to defend themselves and this led to removing Mobutu, they had been massively deported as it was in Germany with Hitler. This is where the conflict start, but western journalists and comes and makes analysis where situation is without looking back where it is actually coming from. Yes, many Tutsi military seniors officers from North Kivu and South Kivu Tutsi were integrated in army but their communities still suffer extreme discrimination. In Masisi and Rutchuru almost all Tutsi communities had been forced to leave. In South Banyamulenge resisted but they face regular attacks every week. The obsession of Congo is 'foreigness' and 'foreign invasion'!!
- July 8, 2012 at 8:22 AM
Qui seme le vent recolte la tempete.
Now hutu are assimilated to bantu and the underlying consequences is that tutsi want to dominate the bantu while being a minority. That set the tutsi community against 80% of Africa population.
I am wondering on what has been unleashed here and if we as foreigners have been able to read the real undelying hidden cause of what is happening.
Have heard that JK was half tutsi , Kagame and Museveni were tutsi and now I am understanding better why there are so much suspicion against JK and why uganda support Rwanda so much even after battling twice in Congo - July 8, 2012 at 11:35 AM
@ ano 8:22
Citizenship is given by Law, and it cannot be given colleçtively to a tribe. It is because of that that Ntaganda is congolese today and Kabareb was congolese yesterday.
Banyamulenge took arm because their brother tutsi from Rwanda armed them and used them against the other tribe of the area. Nationality issues are existing in all congolese border but no community has sided so openly with a foreign nation.
Now people start to think that this war will end when all tutsi and assimilated will be returned to Rwanda.
This war is extremely dangerous as how long will Museveni and Kagame (former Museveni chief of security, so at one moment Kagame was also ugandian....) will be able to sustain the dominance of a minority ?
Citizenship is a false debate and is used as a reason to justify dominance and maintain unrest. - July 8, 2012 at 12:40 PM
Really great thread everyone. I just want to comment on the "was this a genocide?" thread and avoid the "rwanda is the cause of our problems" vs "kabila and his gang are the cause of our problems" thread given the latter isn't a binary situation and, given events of late, will resolve themselves.
I mostly agree with Jose's contention. The law is important and given the singular nature of what constitutes a genocide I believe it is important to be careful about labeling things accurately primarily because of the need to pursue justice.
Where I disagree with an element of this thread is labelling those who actually believe-whether the facts support them or not- a genocide occurred as parrots of the Kabila regime or propagandists.
PK's latest comments highlight this concern. What I am hearing in those comments is the belief that the numerous and appalling crimes against the Congolese over these last 20 years has both been ignored by the international community at large and, for those who have perished, their own government. The simple truth of the matter is that the Congolese, both at home and abroad, do not have an avenue to pursue justice. The legal system in the Congo is mostly a joke, and the Congo- as a state- does not have the power or resources to compel the international community to address the crimes that occurred- and continue to occur- during the wars in the late 90's and the aftermath.
PK's, and others, are simply voicing this desperation and we should commend them for it. Noone can speak for the millions who perished so brutally and so we shouldn't be surprised if the use of that particularly volatile word- genocide- is used today so give voice and dignity to the dead.
Yes, it doesn't make it right based on the facts we have but it is entirely understandable. Having read the mapping report, its pretty clear all sides (Congolese, Ugandan, Rwandan, Angolan, Zimbabwan) engaged in crimes against humanity against damn near everyone. In spite of these crimes, I do agree with Jose that we must accurately assign blame so as to ensure we pursue justice for the dead.
What happened to the nearly 50 million who died in WW2 in battlefields or the "fog of war" and the the 6 million Jews who were designated by explicit government policy (The Final Solution to the Jewish Question) to be murdered in gas chambers, had their children torn from their arms to be burned alive in ovens, transferred to death camps in cattle cars, warehoused into ghettos to die of disease and overcrowding, starved and worked to death, subjected to cruel medical "experiments", shot to death and buried in mass graves, etc..is distinct and justice requires we keep it so. The difference here, however, is the architects of the war and this mass murder of a people have been punished.
We have yet to arrive at such a place in the Great African Wars primarily because their architects are in power in all of the above mentioned countries.
In my humble opinion, this is the great crime that continues to go unresolved and I personally look forward to the day when folks like Museveni, Kabila, Mugabe, Dos Santos, and others are called to account by their peoples for engaging in such vile criminality in their name.
To PK and others, I appreciate your comments and agree- entirely- with your sentiments (though disagreeing with your contention about a genocide).
May we all continue to pursue justice for the long suffering people of the Great Lakes.
ps. A good Congolese friend who resides still in Kikwit once remarked to me in the late 80's while receiving engineering training in the US that Mobutu's policy of divide and conquer with the Tutsi's in the Kivu's would one day "ruin the nation". I honestly had no idea what he was talking about then but good lord in heaven do I understand now. - July 8, 2012 at 1:48 PM
- blaise said...
u quite right on that. Like some one point out it's really a sterile discussion. But for it's intended purpose, it should be interesting to highlight one thing or two.
We should emphasize the importance of the right qualification for any crime committed in the great lake.War crimes and crime against humanity are as bad as genocide. but for the latter, it's more trickier to prove. Imagine a prosecutor who will base his indictment on this label to see the whole case dismiss (remember charles Taylor's indictment vs the actual verdict? a lot of charges were dropped for lack of evidences.).
Although we feel there is a genocide, for the sake of those who seek justice, it's important to have the proper legal definition.
It's great that u point that the mapping exercise actually blame all parties. I remember the angry reception it receive in the region. I will encourage anybody who is interested in having an accurate picture of the events to actually read those 500 pages(ewww), there is a lot of propaganda that need to be corrected. - July 8, 2012 at 4:41 PM
Genocide has become a multi-billion brand and like any brand its protected. That's why some folks are so determined to not call Congo a genocide,as the market will be over-crowded
We Congolese Know it was a genocide-the architects of that genocide, Museveni and Paul Kagame, are still at large.
What makes me sick, is when they patronise us i.e. the majority were killed by illness.
Were you there to see people dying from illness????
This is just one location out of 13 I know of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLy8oGn0YbA - July 8, 2012 at 5:43 PM
In many ways, this debate about genocide reminds me of the debate over OJ Simpson.
For black Americans, OJ Simpson did not kill his wife Nicole. For white Americans, he killed Nicole. When the verdict was made public it was clear to everyone that whites and blacks see justice in America very differently primarily because both groups experience justice differently.
But for lawyers, it was very simple. The evidence against OJ was entirely circumstantial. There was no stone, cold, HARD evidence implicating him in her murder.
I think this is similar for the Congolese. It seems so obvious that their people experienced a genocide. But unfortunately, there has not been an effort to gather HARD evidence to justify the claim- the mapping report, as its authors note, is not evidence seeking to prove a genocide.
The threshold to proving genocide is very high and rightly so given it is a most serious charge.
It would require finding proof and/or verifiable evidence at the highest of levels in the governments of Rwanda, the Congo, Angola, Uganda, and Zimbabwe that explicitly calls for the extermination of an unarmed group of people by virtue of their identity as a group.
The Germans, Cambodians, Serbian, and Rwandan examples meet that threshold because their bureaucrats left plenty of evidence proving they sought to exterminate a specific group of unarmed people.
Not the case for the American (against the natives), Australian (again, against the natives) Armenian, Japanese (against the Chinese in Nanjing), and Congolese examples. Plenty of circumstantial evidence but nothing verifiable unfortunately. - July 8, 2012 at 9:36 PM
@d and @blaise The genocid concept has been devised by human being and qualification of a crime as genocid is done in a court of law. So with a good lawyer and progressive judge I am sure Congolese could get that rulling one day. We have seen worse in the world legal system. So for all those putting forward arguments for the right qyalification. I am waiting for when we will have our day in court. I am sure I will win this case. In the meantime I maintain, in carefully weighting my word, that there was a genocid in western DRC. And the UN mapping is not the only document I use to base my judgement. Everything in this document was well known well before and it doesn't say everything. There have been worse than what is described in this document. And the intent (sessetion of the kivus, maintaining the tutsi domination ) beyond this all tragedy are starting to surface for the commoner but everyone working in this area for the last 20 years could see it in the making. From the day Kagame went to help Museveni take power, and museveni gave kagame th head of ugadan inteligence service position. Museveni trained kagame, armed him and together start the Rwwanda patritic front in 1990. I remember that back then kagame citizenahip was quwstionned in uganda. And you see the same motus operandi of using nationalities with a lot flexibility. It was in 1989 that I heard of kagame for the first time in kampala, I was a teenager at that time. And back then I was told that one day tutsi will return to rwanda and from there take back their kingdom in kivus. At that moment with a strong mobutu and habyerimana in power, I dismissed these thoughts as pure dream. And since 1994 it has been happening in front of my eyes.
To be clear I do not hate tutsi, they are human being as myself. And they have rights to live. I have serious problem with tutsi leaders who for the last 15 years went to a racial domination war instead of pushing for long lasting peace. How many time, have I heard things like, we are the Jews of Affica and as Israel we will rule our holly land. Or you congolese you are unable to run your country let us run it for you and we wil ensure you eat drink and dance. Or with USA behind us, you will do nothing against us, etc... These what I have heard from some high ranking members of tutsi community in congo and rwanda. The most funny thing is that some of these people grew up with me as zairian and We traveled together with zairian passpor and our families were good friends ....
That is why without external presure or military force Rwanda will never leav drc. They are fighting for their survival and their mission, they know that too much blood hav been spilled and that they are hated by other communities. But because they are backed by US and UK and they can get away from everything they don't want to take the hard work of reconciliation and prefer consolidate their domination at whatever cost.
That is why I insist so much for congolese unity. In front of us w have very determined people who havd the world backing. Our division is used to weaken us. And the time for the politicaly correct is over. It is time to address issues where they are. if not this whole region will end up in a huge blood bathe. If it is not congolese no one will fight for Congo. And many of us do not understand how dngerous the situation is for our nation.
Everyone who want long lasting peace in Grat lake should help stop this vicious racial hatred cycle that make entire community start to kill each other because of few politicians with messianic domination dreams.
As congolese we are obliged to respond by fight to a war that started in Rwanda between 2 communities hundred years ago and that we had nothing to do about.
PK - July 8, 2012 at 10:23 PM
How about this for a solution: let the Tutsi's in Rwanda have the Kivu's.
Wouldn't this solve all these problems?
Muslim Indians didn't want to live with the Hindu's so we now have Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Socialist Koreans didn't want to live with Capitalist Koreans so we now have North and South Korea.
Bosnian Serbs, Croats, and Muslims didn't want to live together so we now have Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, and Kosovo.
Southern Sudanese didn't want to live with Northern Sudanese so we now have South Sudan.
Palestinians in Israel (and elsewhere) want their homelands back so we are working towards a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank.
Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants don't want to live together so we now have Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots hate each other with a burning and deep passion so we have divided Cyprus straight down the middle.
People, it is fairly clear to me at this point that Tutsi, Hutu, and the Congolese cannot ALL live in the SAME territory peacefully. They all have all this hatred for each other which politicians use to gain power and wealth.
So isn't it time to let it all go and just give the Kivu's to Rwandans?
We've tried not one but TWO wars to solve this problem and it still isn't being solved.
Why not try seccession? If we had leaders in all these countries who know how to make peace than maybe that wouldn't solve anything.
But Kabila? A former soldier. Museveni? A former soldier. Kagame? A former soldier. Mugabe? A former soldier. Dos Santos? A former soldier.
All men of the gun. They can't make peace no matter how hard they try.
So no more war and let's go with succession like all the above people's who are now, more or less, at peace with each other.
Yes, its a cold peace but what do we want? More death? More racial hatred? More rapes? More IDP's? More humiliation of our women and troops?
The Kivus are nothing but a LONG nightmare and it is time for all of us to WAKE UP!!! - July 8, 2012 at 11:48 PM
@ano 11:48
Tutsi are a minority in Kivu and in all the great lakes, what about the non-tutsi living there, where will they go?
Why don't they accept their minority status and live peacefully with others? - July 9, 2012 at 1:58 AM
- congo man said...
The TUTSIS make up les than one percent of the Kivus population Wile the Muslims are 99 or maybe 100% of the Pakistanis population, the Serbs are maybe 80% of Serbia..... There is more Tutis in Rwanda yet they are only 15% of the population . The problem here is not about representation,discrimination ...but its about greed and weakness. The tutsis are just taking advantage of the weakness of the FARDC and use that to gain power . The DRC has 9 neighbors and in each of the 8 provinces that makes up the DRC,you will find a large population that originated from a neighboring Country.for example in Province Oriental and Equateure you will find some people who came from South Soudan and Central African republic ,in BAS Congo We have people who originated from Congo Brazza and Angola,in KATANGA there are some people who came from Zambia... Most Tutsis came to the Kivus are refugees and settled in camps near the Rwandan and Burundi boaders and lived there peacefully for decades alongside ether Congoles ethnic groups. They have enjoyed great freedom and representation in all Central and local governments since independance ,and despite totaling les than 1% of the population in both north and South Kivus ,they represent more than 20% of Kivucians,in the army and in ather federal institutions. All this tutsi discrimination.... that now everyone is talking About is just excuses and misleading propaganda created by the Rwandan Regime in order to advance their planned land grabs from the DRC. All this problems started after Kagame came to power ,this was planed by KAGAME and MUSEVENI ,both tutsis from Uganda with little knowledge and Understanding of the Region.and that's the reason why this will never succeed.as long as KAGAME and MUSEVENI are in power they will never be stability in this region unless the DRC builds up a strong army to militarily silence this Two bloody ignorant leaders of Rwanda and Uganda. Like I have started here several time ,there is only a military solution to this problem. If KABILA can't do it maybe It's time for someone else to take charge .I don't support military coups but in this situation i think It's very important that the FARDC stops humiliating the nation and if the Commander in Chief is what's needed I hop the army makes that decision before It's too late. KAGAME has to be stopped no matter what it cost. We have lost over 5 million people ans there is nothing more to loose . Like Hitler ,KAGAME needs to be stopped militarily.
- July 9, 2012 at 2:45 AM
The non - tutsi living in Tutsi domination would live like hutu in Kagame dream land, being a majority without any political power and say on their future and on the country economical advance. People who have lived under tutsi dominated RCD in 98-2006 can tell you few things about it. Read Jason book to get a sense of how they ruled the Kivus...
- July 9, 2012 at 2:53 AM
- Unknown said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- July 9, 2012 at 2:59 AM
- blaise said...
@ Pk,
ty for your insight, I perfectly understand what you mean. I agree with most of your analysis. I hope there will be a genuine push for unity from the government.
I always be saddened when I see the way our soldiers treat us, civilians. We want to support our land but ppl feel they are nothing.
Maybe if the government change it's way and use some humility by putting his people in the center of it's policy, something great will happen.
I'm just afraid that the great mobilization the government is calling for will fail in deaf ears. nobody want to die in vain. - July 9, 2012 at 4:02 AM
The Problem of Congo is a brew of two evils; Museveni and kagame.
They're the cause of Tutsi Nightmare in Congo
I was always welcomed in homes of non-Tutsi tribes to have meals/sorghum drinks.
The only bad thing that was ever said to me was being skinny.
From Bunagana,kinyamahura,kirambo,kabindi, Bugani, Rutshuru, kagara, Bumbi and Kanyamondo.
Everyone knew me and they always wished me well.
Today, when I ask what happened to them?? I'm told that they were killed by soldiers from Rwanda.
To me, those are my people that natured me and not some Tutsi from Rwanda or Uganda.
Batwa from Tshanzu also knew me by name and always made fun of my skinny body-in fact, they took care of me after escaping from RPF soldiers that wanted to force me into their ranks. Long story.
What I'm trying to say is that, all tribes in that area had no problem with Tutsi.
Today, in exile, I don't even associate myself with Tutsi from Uganda and Rwanda-they consider us(Congolese Tutsi) as arrogant.
Cheeky bastards!!
That's why I despise M23 Criminals-they're just a bunch of Rwandese Killers that are addicted to murder.
NUff said!
Rutshuru/London - July 9, 2012 at 4:32 AM
Please donate our brow n sis here
http://worldrelief.org/Page.aspx?pid=2986 http://worldrelief.org/Page.aspx?pid=2986
blaise - July 9, 2012 at 5:09 AM
Congoman said..." If KABILA can't do it maybe It's time for someone else to take charge.I don't support military coups but in this situation i think It's very important that the FARDC stops humiliating the nation and if the Commander in Chief is what's needed I hop the army makes that decision before It's too late...". I appreciate your common sense and actualy Congoman it should not be .."maybe it's time for someone else to take charge"...but it should be in the affirmative and it is long overdue. You are all smart people writting on this blog.The same predictable scenario has been playing over and over for the past 15 years. It would appropriate to stop over analyzing and to go back to the basics. As a commander in chief of the FARDC for the past 11 years on the battle field, JK has been leading the FARDC from defeats to defeats, humiliations to humiliations, ridicule to ridicule and more.
The facts are there and they are stubborn. your assement must be in the affirmative not a "may be". - July 9, 2012 at 6:25 AM
Situation getting worse in the field, Fardc falling back from all their position.
In Goma there were some riots that are fading now.
Soldiers accuse Kabila and gnl Tango fort of personally sabotaging the fardc campaign and tring to kill them in selling their plans to the ennemy. every time tango fort gets in the battle field, FARDC is loosing ground.
Rwanda expeditionary corp going to Goma without meeting any resistance. MONUSCO is now the only obstacle between Goma civilian and Rwanda army.
JK is a strong menace for RDC, when he is going to be removed. - July 9, 2012 at 6:42 AM
Thanks for the link, Blaise.
Is there anything we can donate to to help troops and their families?
I have been giving to Congolese friends in the Congo to then send, via Western Union, to troops they know (mostly family members) but the WU fees for my friends tend to be rather high.
Anything else anyone knows about?
Blaise didn't you post something a while back?
Threads are getting long so I can't always find things.
Mel - July 9, 2012 at 7:57 AM
Why not creating a google group, I have the impression that we have hijacked Jason blog.
- July 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM
Why don't we hear from the tutsi from Burundi who have accepted their minority status and negotiated constitutional provision that garanty their right to be represented at the higher level of the state and live peacefully in their country.
They had full power in the past, but at one point they realized that it was time to break the violence cycle and go for systainable solutions. - July 9, 2012 at 9:51 AM
With all due respect to my Congolese friends, this crisis is more than an issue of Congolese domestic politics...the issue of legitimacy and so on. Paul Kagame has decided to engage in an act of brinksmanship with the P-5 members of the Security Council.
Distilled to its essence, what we are witnessing is now a confrontation between Kagame and Barack Obama. To be honest, I don't know which side will blink.
Bruce - July 9, 2012 at 10:30 AM
@ Bruce
Can you please elaborate,an act of brinkmanship with the P-5 members and a confrontation with Obama, to achieve what?
Bismark - July 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM
@Congoman, responding to your comments about whether there a discrimination of Tutsi. Thinking like yours is what has killed Congo. You think that "most Tutsis came to the Kivus are refugees and settled in camps near the Rwandan and Burundi borders and lived there peacefully for decades alongside ether Congoles ethnic groups". As you are obviously a non-Tutsi you don't know the genocide that Cngolese Tutsi have experienced. We have defended ourselves with an army, we took arm because we did not want to be extreminated. For example, among Banyamulenge, everyone has lost one or 2 relatives. I have lost 12 who were singled out because of who they are. If you think we are refugees then it should be so easy for you to get rid of us ( abunch of refugees). We took out Mobutu on power after that he has been seating on people for 35 years, those 20% of our peopl in army are a result of self-defense. If you still dream to exclude others, you will live in that frustration of not knowng what to do. People like yourself can only shout behind the screen without making a difference or assume the UN will help. Ok, assuming that Kagame is an issue, why don't the second largest country if Africa attack Rwanda instead?? FARDC are not even able to defend a town. That is because they don't have a purpose to fight, if you have a deep purpose to fight you would never leave the positions. It is big dream that Congo will be stable is Congolese Tutsi are not given equal right as any other citizen. Chose peace, rational thinking or face the issues, it is a matter of choice!! Another thing that I am often surprised about, before Kagame and Museveni came to power, Congo was in mess and actually was classified as number one failed state, it was considered as the worse country to be a citizen! When Congo was failing because of ideas like yours, Kagame was in a refugee camp in Uganda. Why don't people or analyssts think deeper and consider the issue in the nature of Congolese leadership and irrational thoughts by local people. As they say, for a people a leader they deserve: how can a normal country be led by someone like JK. @Congoman, those frustrations will never help you, actions speaks louder than words. Thanks
- July 9, 2012 at 11:05 AM
@ Bismark
The American taxpayers have spent billions to support MONUSCO with the idea of establishing Congolese sovereignty over its territory.
Whether or not you have any faith in the Congolese state or the Kabila government, is a bit beside the point; Kagame has chosen to violate international law - which makes this an interstate war.
As a great power, the United States has a responsiblity to prevent this conflict from escalating. It has been a central tenet of US foreign policy since the Katanga secession in the early sixties to preserve Congolese territorial integrity. Restoring that integrity was the rationale for undertaking MONUC/MONUSCO in the first place.
I am not aware of any basic change in the American position; I do see what Kagame repeatedly and sytematically has tried to organize and orchestrate on the ground in Eastern Congo since at least August 1998.
The US chose to recognize the Kabila government despite the flawed elections in 2011. It is incumbent upon the Security Council to allow the Congolese people to deal with the legitimacy issue without military incursions by neighboring couintries.
Bruce - July 9, 2012 at 11:16 AM
@ Bruce
If I understand you correctly, the USA as a Great Power has been trying to help the DRC establish sovereignty over its territory with the help of Monuc/Monusco and a lot of money from its tax payers. On the other end, since 1998, Kagame has been repeatedly and systematically trying to organize and orchestrate something that you do not describe but that you see (most likely something not good for what the US is trying to achieve for the DRC).
Are Kagame "doings" going against the aim of the USA? If so, why does the US as a Great Power, allow for this to be. The US could put and end to this situation unless something else is afoot? The US has been blinking (winking) all along at Kagame allowing him to proceed with his destructive plans. This duplicity should be condemned by the American tax payer. Thanks for your input.
Bismark - July 9, 2012 at 11:56 AM
@ Bismark
Yes, we Americans should be concerned by the ambiguities of our foreign policy. I do recognize the role Rwanda has played in Darfur etc. That is not a rationale for its behavior in eastern Congo.
I do tend to agree with D that Mobutu's duplicity towards Congolese Tutsis - they helped him consolidate Congolese sovereignty in the Kivus and then he took away their citizenship...so he sowed the seeds of discord and we are reaping the results.
I don't think the Kabila government has repeated that mistake.
Bruce - July 9, 2012 at 10:42 PM
There are rivlary between village in Kasai and people die. There are others in equator and village raid each other for fishing pound, cattle or evrything. Did you see these people go look for. Foreign nation to help them fight back all the other.
Nationality is an excuse, some Banyamulenge might have faced abuses or being killed. But tell me who did not have someone killed in his community in kivu?
If tutsis and not banyamulenge, are 20% it is because of the treason o your half brother Kabila. But even with 20% you don't have peace and your coahabitation with other communities is getting seriously jeopardized. Until when do you want to continue? Do you think that Kabila will stay for ever, do you really think that with less than 10% of overall population your fellows will mainain this grip for long ?
If not you, your kids will be the victim, if that is the legacy you want to give them. Then continue.
Instead of crying about nationality, start living in peace with your neighbours. You are practically rulling the kivus for the last 15 years, are you feeling more in safety now? Do you feel more congolese ? Have you won the heart of your neighbours ?
So why do you want citizenship of a country whose you don't like inhabitants? Is it citizenship that you are looking or domination ?
Use another excuse, you don't care about congolese citizenship you want the land and annex it to your own country. And you want to dominate this land. I can tell you that it won't work. Kabila is going to pass and if you want peace for your kids, you better start changing now or get ready for a lot more blood and I fear that this time it will be like in the Roman empire. Kill them all, and seed salt in their field so they cannot even grow anything. It will be a war of extermination. - July 9, 2012 at 11:01 PM
What a transition, from the victim image that I had from tutsie of Hotel Rwanda to the image of mass murderer who are committing their own wide scale massacre and who are the main cause of the whole great lakes misery...
- July 10, 2012 at 1:37 AM
@ anonymous from AN. Your cries are tears of a crocodile as they say in africa. The thinking like yours kills the Congo. There is no much question of nationality as there is no such thing as accountable authority for this question. Congo has had blinkered leaders like you, those who are not capable to review colonial law and install equal right for citizens. We removed Mobutu, he was seating on your head for 35 years, I am sure you were among those who praise him because you never experience how cruel was his regime. You are talking about Kabila, we brought his dad to power, he turned aganst us and we fought him. His son does not serve any interest of us. Your ignorance is 'playing the ball outside the pitch': most of people like you insult him that he foreigner, how can a foreigner rule you?? don't you think it is riduculous and that it is worth even not mentioning about? if you think like that, of course Kabila will go and there will might be another one like him. Whoever he/she is, as long as racism like yours does not stop, we will defend ourselves. We did defend ourselves WITHOUT arms and army from 1965, we still in Congo. 1996, leaders who think like you said we have 24 hours to leave Congo, thy killed thousands of us. We fought them. We never caused any trouble, we react after many years of patience and victimisation. You are comparing the incomparable, because you are not a Tutsi so you don't know what scale of attack received from racists like you. LOOK stupidity in GOMA now, they are now attacking Rwandophones because Rwanda is accused of supporting M23! how stupid is to attack Rwandophones in GOMA. This what always happened. In 1993, when a Hutu president was killed in Burundi we were attacked in Congo because we are Tutsi, when Genocide was happening in Rwanda we were attacked in Congo because we are Tutsi, but then this in addition to ongoing issues internally. Goma population live by Gisenyi(Rwanda) facilities, they bank in Kisenyi, they shop in Gisenyi, their everyday life is in Gisenyi. You keep thinking of annexion of Kivu to 'our country'. Forget living the future like Kabila will go, we ar no scared of anyone, yesterday, today and future. The time of people like you just victimising others without challenge has gone. If you are Congolese, if I ask you the difference between Rwandans and Congolese Tutsis, you will not have a clue. In your racist mind you think they are all the same. As you like looking for support UN and outside expert, please Jason Stearn, he will tell you. It is not about citizenship, even yourself who think more right for congolese citizen, it has never served you peacefully, has it? Congo is a country rated to be worse to be a citizen, in fact it is embarassing to be Congolese because of worlwide reputation thickness, irrationalism, xenophobia, bad governance, corruption and immaturity. We have a choice to go anywhere else but we love that country and our innocent people have died injusticely. Let me tell you a shocking example: We lived in DRC for 400 years but this country has discriminated us against anything including education, by year 1996 when we were massively expulse, Banyamulenge had only 84 University graduates. We did seek refugee in other countries, mainly Rwanda and Burundi. After only 14 years, we have 12.000 university graduates and more than 500 post graduates. This is fact so live with, you are screamers and not the doers, you will continue to scream, kill us, but that will not be your solution.
- July 12, 2012 at 1:41 AM
To AN, your rhetoric is clearly those of all the endoctrinated. You were discriminated agasint during Mobutu era ??? Really ? Miko, Bisengimana, who were they ? It is because of mobutu that you are powerfull today. He gave you high profile position in then Zaire, he sheltered you, he allowed you to raise money for then FPR inkontanyi led by Rugema and Kagame at that time.
You should read your history better. I just dont have time to go in details to go through the "banyamulenge" genesys problem.
All the we fought pacefully, is plain lies. You were killing as you were killed. In Ruzizi plane at that time helped by the tutsi regime of Burundi you were armed and retaliating with as much force as others. I know the story of this part of the country because i was born there, grew up there and my mother is tutsi. So you wont lure me into tutsi propaganda. I know the fact!!!!!
Bottom line, what have you done of all this time when you ruled for making peace with others ? What dobyou expect from the people of Goma? You oppressed them, killed them and you think that they will be happy on the thought of you returning?
You are as responsible as any other people ofbthis situation. After genocide yoh had the oportunity to look long term solution. But you took the revenge and domination route and today you realize that you are in a "fighting to death struggle".
Fight for reconciliation and stop all this nonsense about we have been persecuted, blablab. Because the others will say tutsi have been ruled this land and they persecuted us, they kille us and blablba.
You have lost your virginity. Do you know why as half tutsi, i am not supporting you? Because i have seen all this non sense destroying my own mother because she wed a non tutsi.
So its not too late To accept that nobody has blood in the hands and that its more than time to take the very hard road of living together. - July 14, 2012 at 1:03 AM
To Anonymous. You are mixing realities and presenting falsely the history of the country. Lets not got back to what I already said as you seem basing your views on ignorance. At each stage of history we worked hard to get peace in Congo: When Mulelist rebellion we symbolically supported them as in other community, as soon as they started killing our cattle, we fought them, in fact Mobutu would have never won this battle without us. Mobutu protected us on this basis, basically your family enjoyed the peace that came from our sacrifice. In the 1970s Mobutu realised and acknowledged the lack of capacity intellectually after the Zairianisation. Bisengimana and Rwagabuba helped in building the best system that Congo ever had, after Bisengimana as Mobutu's cabinet, Congo became what has became economically. Of course this was another way to trade in support versus peace. Miko was in finances in Gecamine. Following these periods extremists like Anzuluni and others did emerge and started propaganda that led to what you are denying ignorantly. In 1996, we brought the old ennemy Laurent Kabila, he acted as lamb but changed as tiger once we put him on power. We have been part of history in the struggle to leave. We have prioritise reconciliation all the time. There is not fighting to death struggle, victims are all sides which is not to celebrate. What I am tying to say there is no longer time and will never be a time when there the desease of xenophobia among our fellows conglese will victimise others without defense. Look how little you know: you think I am defending the M23? the eastern DRC is led military by seniors military from Rwandophone or Tutsi if you like, they are fighting M23 like anyother Congolese. In your narrow minded thinking, you think there is war between Congo and Tutsi people and this what many congolese do all the time of crisis. How the community become responsibiity of individuals actions from 'their' community? your mother is not a Tutsi! if she was you would know the real issue in DRC. And let me give a message you would send to people like you and Congoman, be rational thinkers, look for the root causes of issues. Congo is so diverse with so many tribes within its borders. When crisis happen with involvement of a Tutsi individuals it does not mean the whole community. Today there 12 militias groups in eastern of Congo, some control territories, no body talks about them. Please help negativists like you to think begger, instead of screaming about Rwanda, Congo can defend itself in or outside the borders. Instead of shouting that your leader is not Congolese, why don't you remove him? instead of screaming of Tutsi domination, why don't you remove them? How can a so small group of 'refugees' (according to those you support) can dominate 50 millions of people? how can a small country comparable to dot become so influential in the region but a so big country keep running to cry infront of UN who are only there to create jobs? UN was there when Lumumba was killed.
- July 15, 2012 at 3:46 PM
Hi Jason!
Just a quick question if you (or any other of you who have an better idea than me) have an estimate on how many troops M23 currently has? And in what extent has combatants from other AG joied M23, how many from M23 has joined other AGs/reintegrated to FARDC or demobilized? I know such figures are far from exact but if anyone has estimations? Thanks!@L8 - July 19, 2012 at 7:58 AM
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