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Humans have a pronounced tendency to believe when they shouldn't, disbelieve despite counter-evidence, and sustain beliefs that are unreasonable. One of the ways that this is manifest is as belief persistence. A number of studies, including this one:
Anderson, Lepper, and Ross, "Perseverance of Social Theories: The Role of Explanation in the Persistence of Discredited Information," Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1980, Vol. 39, No.6, 1037-1049
have shown that people will go on believing something even after their reasons have been shown to be faulty.
Anderson, Lepper, and Ross presented subjects with some evidence and asked them to theorize about it. Then they told the subjects that the evidence they had been given was completely fabricated and false. But when tested afterwards about the truth of their theory based on that evidence, the subjects still tended to believe. In philosopher speak: For any S who forms belief P on the basis of evidence E, belief in P will tend to persist even after evidence E has been completely discredited to S.
The implications here for religious belief are obvious. Spend a lot of time entertaining fairy tales about Adam and Eve, Noah, and people rising from the dead in Sunday school, and even if you discover that the evidence for those beliefs is suspect, the belief has a way of persisting. Once it's in there, it's very hard to get it out. There's a copy of the study here:
Persistence of Belief After Discredited Evidence
Thursday, March 19, 2009
Belief Persistence Despite Discredited Evidence
47 comments:
And much of academia persists in believing the earth is warming while the temperatures have been falling.
The latest is that hurricane activity has greatly decreased.
Nope. We will persist in insisting and painting a gloom and doom oicture of global warming against the tide of evidence. - March 19, 2009 at 12:14 PM
And much of academia persists in believing the earth is warming while the temperatures have been falling.
BZZZZT! Wrong!
Misleading yourself with graphs - March 19, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Even though "Steve Martin"'s evidence has been discredited, I predict he will continue to believe.
- March 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM
- M. Tully said...
OK, There were a couple of sentences from the article had me concerned for a few paragraphs:
"In everyday experience our intuitive theories and beliefs are sometimes based on just such inconclusive data, but challenges to such beliefs and the formative data for those beliefs are rarely as decisive as the discrediting procedures employed in this study."
"That subjects will persevere in beliefs with such weak empirical grounding in the face of a complete refutation of the formative evidence for those beliefs seems eloquent testimony to the pervasiveness of our propensity to resist changing our attitudes or beliefs."
I was at the point of thinking, "Great, you can never win. My grandchildren will have to go to school board meetings to make the case that would prefer that their children be taught biology in biology class and not mythology."
But, there was finally light at the end of tunnel.
"Such an assumption is consistent with the proposition that people are likely to engage in the cognitive effort required to generate an explanation only when provided with some salient or unexpected event or outcome (Fischhoff, 1977; Kanouse, 1971; Lepper,
lanna, & Abelson, 1970)."
"Would such perseverance effects be eliminated or attenuated, for example, if subjects could be led, after debriefing, to consider explicitly the explanations that might be offered to support a contention in opposition to their initial beliefs?"
Let us hope that further research gives good evidence for the above. - March 19, 2009 at 6:44 PM
- Teleprompter said...
Steve Martin,
Global warming or cooling - or whatnot - is a red herring and really has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic being presented in this post.
Like M. Tully, I search for reasons to be optimistic. Someday, I just wish that most of the people in the world would use rational judgment first in everything they did -- even if they were still religious, it would be a great advance for humanity. Rationalism is the way to go - practically every progression we've seen is derived from it.
That is my hope. - March 19, 2009 at 8:42 PM
- Matt McCormick said...
Thanks, Tully. For reading closely and thinking hard about the issue here.
MM - March 19, 2009 at 8:56 PM
Belief persistence is seen in many ideologies like communism, fascism or the alien folks. How can you make a leap and suggest this is a sole problem of religion? This is a psychological phenomenon called cognitive dissonance and is common when folks are invested in a belief and when confronted with contrary evidence try to save face...
You're 50 years behind professor... - March 20, 2009 at 2:04 AM
How can you make a leap and suggest this is a sole problem of religion?
? This seems to me the precise opposite of what he has done. - March 20, 2009 at 7:24 AM
Why merely reference religious beliefs? Cognitive dissonance is a problem throughout human nature. This would make any argument the professor had incredibly weak with regards to discrediting religion/God etc. This would also suggest confirmation bias. - March 20, 2009 at 9:41 PM
- Matt McCormick said...
Read closely, anon. I'm pointing out one of the implications for religious belief. There is no claim that people aren't guilty of this mistake in any other circumstance. Clearly it's something that we all have to guard against. Sunday school, however, is a clear, obvious, and very common example where people deliberately pump all sorts of silliness that they know isn't true into their heads. They'd never believe in talking snakes, talking bushes, and magical crackers in any other context, but every Sunday morning they pretend anyway.
- March 20, 2009 at 10:17 PM
Just trying to make a point about "religion".
Religious people believe things without need for evidence.
Global warming and worship of the earth is also a religion. - March 22, 2009 at 6:18 AM
Global warming and worship of the earth is also a religion.
Global warming is not a religion, it is a scientific theory based on a large and growing accumulation of evidence. Since you have already demonstrated that you have no interest in seeking out accurate sources of evidence on that topic, you should just STFU about it. - March 22, 2009 at 8:08 AM
- Eric Sotnak said...
Steve Martin's comments regarding Global Warming are instructive, I think, though not for the reasons he thinks, I suspect. He implies that academics hold to belief in Global Warming without, or even against evidence. But it is precisely the tide of evidence favoring Global Warming that has led to that position being embraced by the majority of those who study climate. And if it shoudld turn out that that position is wrong, it will be shown to be wrong, and (eventually) accepted as being wrong, again, by the weight of evidence. That is the scientific outlook at work. That is how things happened with the eventual rejection of the theory of the aether as the medium through which light waves must be propogated, the eventual acceptance of quantum mechanics, the now prevailing view that the universe will continue to expand indefinitely rather than collapsing back again in a 'big crunch' and so on. In contrast, those who continue to defend religious hypotheses in spite of the failure of their views to be supported by evidence are the ones who are being dogmatic. There may be a few troublesome data points that pose trouble for the Global Warming hypothesis, but it is unwise to base one's views on partial evidence. This is why the scientific outlook is one where one's commitments remain open to revision. New evidence calls for new assessment.
(I know this is peripheral, but it seems odd to me that many Global Warming deniers seem to base their view on the alleged extravagance of accepting that human activities could have such a profound impact on the the environment. This seems to me to be the same mindset that would lead one to hold that the oceans are too vast to be significantly polluted by human waste products, or that the earth's forests are so vast that we could never possibly deplete them, or that there are too many bison to be in danger of extinction, etc. Are we to believe that no matter how much gunk we pour into the atmosphere, we could never expect it to make a detectable difference? What's the basis for this sort of attitude?) - March 22, 2009 at 10:58 AM
- Matt McCormick said...
Thanks Prof. Sotnak. And of course, the profound irony here is that many of the same folks who get out the scalpels and magnifying glasses and apply the harshest critical scrutiny to the evidence for global warming are the same ones who happily accept outlandish supernatural claims about magical snakes and people rising from the dead on a slender thread of suspicious evidence.
The question of global warming aside, if someone says that they believe that Jesus really was a magical being and the rest of it, then we have a substantial prima facie reason to suspect the truth of anything else they say--they've just announced themselves as poor critical thinkers and an unreliable source of information generally. - March 22, 2009 at 2:03 PM
I cant see how anyone would deny GWT. It is pretty clear considering these charts:
It may be that there is both man-made and natural forces at work. That is if you can join folks like Bertrand Russell and think there is multiple causes to an event... - March 22, 2009 at 7:42 PM
I do think the professor is right in suggesting a correlation between the religious right and GWT deniers. There does seem to be a common mind set. Ah confirmation bias...aint she grand!
- March 22, 2009 at 7:45 PM
- M. Tully said...
When you said, "And of course, the profound irony here is that many of the same folks who get out the scalpels and magnifying glasses and apply the harshest critical scrutiny to the evidence for global warming are the same ones who happily accept outlandish supernatural claims about magical snakes and people rising from the dead on a slender thread of suspicious evidence." I think that statement gets to the real problem here.
What is the salient question to ask to get someone to rethink their epistemology? And, if they find themselves confounded after rethinking, what is the most effective way to present alternatives?
I think those are fascinating problems and I don't have the slightest idea on how to even approach them. - March 22, 2009 at 8:30 PM
- M. Tully said...
"I know this is peripheral, but it seems odd to me that many Global Warming deniers seem to base their view on the alleged extravagance of accepting that human activities could have such a profound impact on the the environment."
I've encountered the same argument many times. The questions I always ask are:
Well then, at what level of human activity would it start to effect the environment? How do you measure it? What is the criteria? Certainly there must be some basis for saying that humans can't affect something?
Then I point them the evidence and it's basis.
Can't say I've been effective at getting people to change their understanding, but I have made them significantly less arrogant about their certainty. - March 22, 2009 at 8:41 PM
- Matt McCormick said...
Thanks Tully. How can you get someone to rethink their epistemology, esp. regarding double standards that lower the bar for religious claims? That's a hard question. Some of the people who post here do not appear to be interested in any sort of real exchange of ideas with an openness to possibly changing their minds. I was just reading some psych research that shows that for highly politicized issues, confronting people with evidence contrary to their view just makes them dig in deeper and distort their filtering of the evidence more. So some people will just not be reachable. The consciousness eating mind virus has already devoured them. But others are more receptive and, I tell myself, keeping the arguments alive, presenting them in new ways, and drawing out the clearest analogies and reasons will eventually get through to them. Very few people will just listen to a point and then promptly change their minds, esp. with atheism. But there is a slow drift that happens over years and they come around. I have certainly changed my mind a lot that way.
MM - March 22, 2009 at 9:41 PM
Were you ever a believer? Perhaps in your undergraduate/graduate work
you went back and forth on the issue of God? - March 22, 2009 at 10:07 PM
- T said...
You are spot on with this post. However, I do take issue with one statement you made in a follow-up post:
if someone says that they believe that Jesus really was a magical being and the rest of it, then we have a substantial prima facie reason to suspect the truth of anything else they say--they've just announced themselves as poor critical thinkers and an unreliable source of information generally.
All people have at times have demonstrated poor critical thinking skills. Even extremely intelligent adults with excellent reasoning ability make poor decisions (see latest Skeptic magazine article "Ponzi..."). My son's endocrinologist is a church going Christian who professes belief in Christ as his lord and savior. While his religious views are absurd, he is an excellent endocrinologist and I trust him completely in caring for my diabetic son. Of course I wouldn't trust him to guide us spiritually/philosophically, as he is an idiot when it comes to theological and philosophical matters. However, I think that because people have been allowed to so blatantly lie over the years about god that it is reasonable for a highly intelligent person to have no idea that they have been lied to. I was raised a fundamentalist, put in fundamentalist schools, including Bible College and Seminary. Fortunately, I pursued a PhD in Psychology and finally went to a secular school. As an adult (age 25-27) I began to see through the lies, and over time I lost belief in Christianity all together. At this time I had no idea that there were numerous extremely well-thought criticisms of Christianity. I had never heard any real criticisms against Christianity (I was told through Bible College and Seminary by people I trusted that there were no good arguments against Christianity). It wasn't until I told my brother at age 30 that I didn't believe in Christianity that he said, "Oh yeah, I read a book by Richard Dawkins about 10 years ago and became an atheist."
"What you're an atheist?! How come you didn't tell me? How come you let me believe that nonsense for so long?" I asked.
"I didn't want to offend you," he responded.
So I went out and purchased "God Delusion" and after reading it I realized I was an atheist as well. So, was I an idiot for believing? Perhaps, but my belief was based on years of deceit and brainwashing that is not only sanctioned by society, but promoted as healthy. Even though I believed in God and once believed in Jesus as a magical being, my critical reasoning ability wasn't abnormally low or faulty; rather, as a Bible College and Seminary graduate I was simply uneducated or under-educated in these matters (take your pick). Had I been given a book by Bart Ehrman in BC or Seminary I would have dumped Christianity 5-8 years sooner.
Anyways, though we may disagree on this one minor point, I love your blog. I hope you publish a book, as I would love to give it out this Christmas. Or have you published one? - March 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM
- Matt McCormick said...
Thanks for the thoughtful post and the insights, Toby. I'm working on the book. I'll keep everyone here updated.
All things considered, if I find out someone is an ardent believer like your endocrinologist, that does cast some substantial doubt, in my mind, on their critical thinking capacities. It doesn't demonstrate that he is an idiot, as you suggest, but it does raise a serious question. And that might be enough to tip the balance. Frankly, if I found that out about my doctor, I'd change.
Your defense attempts to diminish the person's culpability in believing because they are brainwashed, or immersed in a believing culture, or they just never knew any better. That all may be true, but those excuses don't demonstrate that the person in question has outstanding critical thinking skills--they show that he's the sort of person who can fall prey to all of that indoctrination. Not being able to see through the brainwashing itself indicates some lack of intellectual insight. You say you saw through it all yourself eventually, but you were perfectly reasonable and rational before you did. I'm not sure you can have it both ways. But we're glad you were liberated. And it's good to know that these ideas do change some people's minds.
MM - March 24, 2009 at 9:15 PM
- T said...
Perhaps you're right. If people didn't make up such grand and believable lies about faith, I would readily consent to your entire argument. However, I was routinely told of miracles and though I never saw them, they came from people I viewed as honest. So it took me longer to see through it than it should of.
I also think your argument should address age, IQ, and level/type of education. With the my endocrinologist, you are right and your entire critique applies--he should know better. However, 85 percent of the population have IQ's under 115. I would guess given the correlation of reduced religiosity with higher IQ that what your are defining as faulty critical thinking skills are still within normal variance. So, I'm not saying their reasoning abilities aren't faulty, I just think that it is important to note that while the reasoning abilities may be faulty, it is not abnormal. Call that the psychologist in me. - March 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM
Yes every atheist is a lay psychologists. they seem convinced that people who hold religious views are suffering from some mental problems. The problem with this reasoning is its faulty. There is no evidence for it nor can it be articulated above and beyond the inherent ad nausuem it presupposes. this is much like the partisan bickering that democrats and republicans can partake in - dems are emotional and irrational, repubs cruel and senseless. Such partisan bickering is what atheist on this blog seem to do quite often.
- March 25, 2009 at 5:56 PM
Review Article
Plato's Quinean Beard: Did Plato ever grow it?
Quine may be taken to use the phrase 'Plato's Beard' to denote a solution to the following problem: How is it possible to speak of that which does not exist, of non-being or as Read has it, to denote a solution to the problem: 'How can a sentence with empty names have meaning?'.
Quine writes:
Nonbeing must in some sense be, otherwise what is that there is not? This tangled doctrine might be nicknamed Plato's beard; historically it has proved tough, frequently dulling the edge of Occam's razor.
To expand. If nonbeing in no sense is, then we cannot ever assert that it is not; yet if it in some sense is, then how can it remain nonbeing? Let us fill out with an example (coined from Quine). If Pegasus in no sense exists, then how can we ever assert that Pegasus does not exist?—yet we may clearly want to assert that Pegasus does not exist and affirm the proposition that it is false that Pegasus exists. If, on the other hand, Pegasus in some sense exists, how may we affirm that he does not? We shall be contradicting ourselves or be guilty of equivocation.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=24925 - March 25, 2009 at 6:33 PM
- T said...
I actually have a PhD in Psychology and I can state, as all psychologists would, religious people have mental problems... just as every person alive has had or will have mental problems. Now if people of some particular religion had significantly fewer mental problems (disorders) compared to the general population, then that would be something. But as the data goes, religious people have comparable rates of mental illness to the general population. Some religions have higher rates of pathology (some cults, Pentecostals, etc), Christians have higher divorce rates, but people who go to church do live longer than those who don't. You can cherry pick the data, but overall no religious group fairs better than the next, or even non-religious groups for that matter. As an atheist I do not believe that religious views are indicative of a mental illness in and of itself. However, some religious views are unhealthy and are a result of pre-existing pathology.
So where does a psychologist actually draw the line, or when is a religious belief pathological? This is a tough question and will vary from psychologist to psychologist. Personally I don't mess much with people's religious views unless they are ego-dystonic or are causing impairment in the individual's family, social, or occupational life. What do you do with a person who says, "I heard the voice of God and he told me..." It entirely depends upon the message the individual heard and the impact upon the individual. If they have multiple symptoms of schizophrenia and believe God wants them to pluck their eye out because it caused them to sin, then that's clearly a severe mental illness at work. On the other hand, if the individual is mostly well functioning and insists that he heard god say, "Love your neighbor." I'm not going to worry about that much at all. Those are more clear cut examples. The harder ones are more gray, so to speak. Often, many religious views are delusional, hallucinations, or pathological. Sometimes I do have to diagnose the individual with Psychotic Disorder NOS because of a religious belief.
What do you think? Is a Mormon or Pentecostal speaking in tongues a sign of pathology? - March 25, 2009 at 7:38 PM
- M. Tully said...
Great comment. And welcome to a great blog. I came upon it on accident while googling something else. It has certainly changed my my views about philosophy in general and about more recent philosophy in particular.
Based on the above, I can definitely appreciate your comment, "All people have at times have demonstrated poor critical thinking skills."
Yes, but isn't great to realize you're wrong about something? Learning to appreciate being wrong is perhaps the best thing I have ever learned.
So again, welcome. - March 25, 2009 at 8:12 PM
- M. Tully said...
Oh, Anon,
"Nonbeing must in some sense be, otherwise what is that there is not?"
Non believing definitely is an is. But, oh my goodness, I just started to read Quine and if your going to cite him as an authority, I must (out of a good conscious) tell you that you are going to get your ...ahem...argument handed to you.
Cherry pick if you must but realize, there are consequences. - March 25, 2009 at 8:28 PM
- Eric Sotnak said...
anonymous cut-and-pasted some things from the internet, apparently being under the impression that Quine would side with him regarding assertions of non-existence. Unfortunately, anonymous has not, obviously, read or understood what Quine goes on to say regarding what he thinks is the appropriate resolution of the difficulties involved in asserting non-existence. As it turns out, Quine would not be friendly to the view anonymous seems to be trying to pin on him.
The article (which everyone should read!) is "On What There Is" Review of Metaphysics, Vol. 2 (1948/1949), pp. 21 - 38. - March 26, 2009 at 8:03 PM
Seriously, you should know the difference between an "expert opinion" and an "opinion" in the field of psychology. if a psychologist gives an opinion to a person without their medical records and background then they can only give an opinion and not an expert opinion. Have you the necessary background to assess all religious persons? What you have stated here is clearly an opinion and it is intellectually dishonest to pass one as the other. - March 27, 2009 at 4:07 AM
Eric and tully,
I am fully aware of Quine's work. And never did I say i agreed with him. That is poor reading by both of you. I was trying to get across the problem of Plato's beard.
Quine struggled to get rid of nonexsitence entites. He ended up using a form of free logic to handle the ontological commitments that come with speaking of nonentities.
Remember, Quine is an ontological relativists and such a position can give rise to nonentities given the right era. Hi solution really depends on assuming that nonentities do not exists to begin with.
Quine concluded his "Two Dogmas of Empiricism" as follows:
"As an empiricist I continue to think of the conceptual scheme of science as a tool, ultimately, for predicting future experience in the light of past experience. Physical objects are conceptually imported into the situation as convenient intermediaries not by definition in terms of experience, but simply as irreducible posits comparable, epistemologically, to the gods of Homer . . . For my part I do, qua lay physicist, believe in physical objects and not in Homer's gods; and I consider it a scientific error to believe otherwise. But in point of epistemological footing, the physical objects and the gods differ only in degree and not in kind. Both sorts of entities enter our conceptions only as cultural posits". - March 27, 2009 at 4:37 AM
- T said...
Expert opinion?! Am I testifying before congress or at a trial? Where did I claim to be giving expert opinion? You're the one pretending to be an expert. You tell everyone they are wrong and that you're right. Discussions of mutual interest tend to be more collegial than that. But if you want expert opinion, here's my "expert" opinion: I'm beginning to suspect that you're an idiot who doesn't comprehend or read well.
I base this on what I wrote. Is it this that you have a problem with:
"As an atheist I do not believe that religious views are indicative of a mental illness"
"Personally I don't mess much with people's religious views"
Why don't you do me a favor and try to find specific things I wrote and claimed as expert opinion that you disagree with?
Also, this a a blog for crying out loud, not a peer reviewed journal. And register a name to publish under. Matt, I know that most people use pseudonyms anyway, but I think you should block anonymous posts. - March 27, 2009 at 5:54 AM
- Eric Sotnak said...
anonymous wrote:
"I am fully aware of Quine's work. And never did I say i agreed with him. That is poor reading by both of you. I was trying to get across the problem of Plato's beard."
Since you don't agree with Quine's solution to the problem of non-being (or Plato's beard), then where do you think he goes wrong? What do you think is the correct solution? - March 28, 2009 at 9:46 AM
You said:
"I actually have a PhD in Psychology and I can state, as all psychologists would, religious people have mental problems..."
You have attributed your own opinion as an expert opinion by claiming "ALL" psychologists" would agree with you> I just need to find one (and I know one) to falsify your claim.
You dont seem to know the difference between an expert opinion and an opinion. I pity you if you really have a PHD in psychology. - March 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM
I dont think there is a solution for Plato's beard. The topic delves into a very complicated argument about univerals.
Since I introduced this topic perhaps you would like to respond as to how atheist deal with Plato's beard? That way we keep the discussion to phil of religion and not metaphysics or second order logic... - March 28, 2009 at 9:10 PM
- T said...
Anon wrote:
You have attributed your own opinion as an expert opinion by claiming "ALL" psychologists" would agree with you> I just need to find one (and I know one) to falsify your claim.
Ha! You got to be kidding me! Are you trying to intentionally misrepresent my statements? You continue to make up nonsense, though I am having fun with the exchange. Read the statement that you have a problem with more carefully this time:
"...religious people have mental problems... just as every person alive has had or will have mental problems."
Saying a person will have a mental problem at some point in their life is saying nothing more than that they are alive. The problems may be very minor, they may be severe, but no person's life has ever been lived free of mental trouble. Yes, ALL psychologists would agree with this.
You are either intentionally distorting mine and others' statements to get are rise out of us, or you have a problem with reading and comprehension (at least with this blog).
Given my statement above, do you honestly think a person has ever lived a live entirely free of any and all mental problems? Yes, I said ALL psychologists would agree with me on this because I still believe they would. I seriously would love for you to provide us with the psychologist you "know" that disagrees with me on this idea. But you have to present my statement in context to he or she, not chop it like you did in your post to misrepresent me.
As for questioning my credentials, I have probably linked enough information to my blogspot account to verify my identity as it is. So, yes, I do actually have a PhD in Psychology. However, I don't pretend that my degree makes me an expert when it comes to religion. I merely was presenting MY point-of-view as an atheist and as a doctor of psychology. My actual statements are fairly benign, but you are creating controversy in my comments where there is none.
Okay, try again, give me a statement IN CONTEXT that I made where I represented myself as an expert giving "expert" opinions on this blog where the opinions were controversial or inappropriate in some fashion. - March 28, 2009 at 9:46 PM
- T said...
Another quick thought regarding your post to me. I am still humored at your attacks against my professional qualifications. Please tell us all what your profession is. I am assuming all the opinions you have offered are non-expert in nature. At least they appear to be. Actually (aside from your grammar and punctuation) your skill at twisting words leaves me to believe you might be an attorney or politician. After all, this entire exchange about my revelation of my profession all started from an attack by you were you contemptuously wrote,
Yes every atheist is a lay psychologists. they seem convinced that people who hold religious views are suffering from some mental problems. The problem with this reasoning is its faulty. There is no evidence for it nor can it be articulated above and beyond the inherent ad nausuem it presupposes
For fun, let's review the opinions you've offered on this blog:
This is a psychological phenomenon called cognitive dissonance and is common when folks are invested in a belief and when confronted with contrary evidence try to save face...
Such an opinion! Are you an expert on this area of psychology? You say it with such emphasis, like there is no possibility that you might be mistaken... sounds like "expert" opinion to me!
You continue:
You're 50 years behind professor...
Another attack on professional competency... this time directed at Matt. You're qualified to criticize his competency in this field of philosophy how? Is that your "expert" opinion again?
Later you wrote,
Seriously, you should know the difference between an "expert opinion" and an "opinion" in the field of psychology. if a psychologist gives an opinion to a person without their medical records and background then they can only give an opinion and not an expert opinion. Have you the necessary background to assess all religious persons? What you have stated here is clearly an opinion and it is intellectually dishonest to pass one as the other.
This has nothing to do with anything I said! I gave no inappropriate or controversial claims related to the field of psychology, nor did I make an assessment on any actual person. The best you could come up with is criticizing my use of the phrase "all psychologists." Yes, all is reaching, but this is a blog, and informal exchange of thoughts and ideas, not a forum for "expert opinion" as you keep insisting.
My favorite quote from you:
I pity you if you really have a PHD in psychology.
There you go again attacking professional competency and/or qualifications. Pity would imply some sort of compassion, but you have not demonstrated anything of the sort. You attack, misrepresent, belittle, and distort... you do not show compassion at all. First, you attack Matt's professional competency, then mine; which coming from an "anonymous" poster I find rather cowardly and lowbrow. - March 28, 2009 at 10:25 PM
- T said...
Bill Cosby has this great comedy routine. If you are familiar with Cosby's work, you'll know that he rarely ever uses fowl language. In fact, he has even criticized other black comedians for their fowl language. So knowing Cosby's integrity and sensibilities make this joke have greater impact in my opinion. However, you also have to imagine it in Bill Cosby's draw out dramatic/comedic voice to get the full effect:
A lot of people in Hollywood do drugs and I just can't understand it. Some of my friends are actors and actresses, so I asked one of them one, "Whhhhhyyy are allll these PEOPLE around hhheeere doing drugs?!
And you know what he said to me?! He said, "Hey man, its just cocaine, you know. It helps accentuate your personality."
I responded to the guy, but what about when your personality is an asshole like you.
Ha! I love it... perhaps I should go search youtube for link to it, as I probably butchered it and definitely didn't do it justice.
As I was reading and responding to Anon tonight, I was reminded of Bill's routine. On blogs it is easy to misread, misinterpret, and not understand what someone is communicating. I honestly have no idea how Anon intended for his/her comments to come off. I suspect that Anon thinks I'm an asshole (as Cosby would say), but this is only an assumption. So, if I've misread/misinterpreted you tone or position Anon, you have my apology. However, I really do believe that you have misread what I was trying to say OR I communicated poorly.
For the record:
I do NOT think all religious beliefs are pathological (mental disorders or illness). I think many religious beliefs are mostly healthy and normal. However, there are some religious beliefs that are not healthy and not normal. I don't mess with my clients' religious beliefs unless those beliefs are dangerous (ie God told me to kill my wife). I don't believe it is right for me to impose my values onto my clients. I routinely support my clients' religious views, even when I disagree with them because there is research to show that religion and churches can be (though not always) excellent support systems. - March 28, 2009 at 11:07 PM
You arguing with yourself?
You said:
"I actually have a PhD in Psychology and I can state, as all psychologists would, religious people have mental problems..."
"I do NOT think all religious beliefs are pathological (mental disorders or illness). I think many religious beliefs are mostly healthy and normal"
Who won? - March 29, 2009 at 2:15 PM
- T said...
You are being a dishonest person. You are only proving yourself to be a liar through your attempts to deceive.
My quote was, "religious people have mental problems... just as every person alive has had or will have mental problems."
Way to take it out of context, but cutting off the last half of the quote. You continue to create controversy where there is none. - March 29, 2009 at 2:29 PM
You are right Toby. I am a completely dishonest person. I am cowardly and shallow just as you suggest.
;) - March 29, 2009 at 2:35 PM
- T said...
Well, that was surprising. A little out of character for you considering all the other distortions, cheap shots and half-truths coming from you, but okay. - March 29, 2009 at 8:57 PM
- Eric Sotnak said...
anonymous wrote:
"Since I introduced this topic perhaps you would like to respond as to how atheist deal with Plato's beard? "
I submit that the problem of Plato's Beard is no greater for the atheist than the problem of Jesus' feathers is for the theist. - April 3, 2009 at 7:11 AM
- 逆円助 said...
- July 4, 2009 at 5:38 AM
- 精神年齢 said...
- July 6, 2009 at 6:50 AM
最近仕事ばかりで毎日退屈してます。そろそろ恋人欲しいです☆もう夏だし海とか行きたいな♪ firstname.lastname@example.com 連絡待ってるよ☆
- July 17, 2009 at 8:02 AM
- 家出 said...
- July 19, 2009 at 4:25 AM

subset: commoncrawl


text:
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Firm Badge
(with firm name engraving)
As a legal team that has obtained one of the Top 20 Personal Injury Settlements in New York City in 2022, your firm has earned the opportunity to display this electronic badge in the following types of marketing materials:
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-greatest wrestling match ever
-love affair of the century
-the title of a Haruki Murakami novel, if it had one more pop culture reference
But I suppose I am not very weird, either:
Enid speaks the truth. These shoes got me way too much cool cred in gym class this year.
Other things about the store:
-Smelled the new perfume -- oh, sorry dudes, cologne -- called BANG. Kind of forgettable? I started thinking about how to describe it moments after smelling it and already couldn't remember what it was like. I think it just smelled a lot like cologne.
-More about the employees: one woman asked what I got at Borders after seeing my bag, and we talked about Industrie magazine (which is SO GOOD and will get its own post.) She recognized me, but from a friend's Facebook photos, so I don't think they were being friendly because they knew about my blog.
If you read this whole thing, you are very patient.


text:
'Chaos coordinator' adult longsleeve shirt
'Chaos coordinator' shirt.
This shirt has long sleeves and is made from 100% organic cotton. We have both female and male fits available.
The shirts and sweaters we use, are made from 100% certified organic, fairtrade cotton. They are produced in good working conditions, in a process that is eco-friendly, while taking care of biodiversity, local environments and global climate.
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Black – Grey – Navy - White - Blue - Yellow - Red - Military - Aqua - Green - Burgundy
Available sizes: S - M - L - XL. These are available in both the women's fit, as in the men's fit. Please check the sizing table carefully before ordering.
Please also note that, although every effort is made to photograph my items accurately and describe my products in detail, I cannot guarantee every computer monitor will accurately depict the actual color of the item. Please contact me with any questions about the color or size of any item before purchasing.
All items are shipped with PostNL, with tracking.
Shipping times depend on your destination:
Belgium: 1-5 business days
Europe: 5-15 business days
Rest of the world: 10-25 business days


text:
Get upto 15% Off on Bridal Orders, Call to Order Today!
Bridal Long Maxi with Lehnga in Silver Color #Y6052
Call for PriceCustom Made
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text:
A cookie is a small text file that stores Internet settings. Almost every website uses cookie technology. The cookie is downloaded by your Internet browser the first time you visit a website. The next time you visit this website from the same device, the cookie and the information in it are either sent back to the originating website (first-party cookies) or to another website to which it belongs (third-party cookies). By that, the website can detect that it has already been opened using this browser, and in some cases it will then vary the content it shows.
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text:
Crew Neck Pullover Size 38-44 Pattern
Crew Neck Pullover Size 38-44 Pattern is backordered and your entire order will ship as soon as it is back in stock.
Delivery and Shipping
Delivery and Shipping
Click Here to see all information on our shipping.
Returns & Exchanges
Returns & Exchanges
Questioning a purchase? Take the worry out of it with up to 90 days of free returns.
*This applies to US returns only.
Click here to see all our return information and to create a return.
This is a downloadable (non paper) pattern. For questions about yarn requirements, please contact us. After your purchase, you may download the pattern from your account.
Important Information
Fashion: Men & Women
Hook Size: N/A
Size: hook-N/A
Needle Size: 5 (3.75 mm)
Size: needle-5 (3.75 mm)
Needle Size: 7 (4.5 mm)
Size: needle-7 (4.5 mm)
Needle Size: 8" (20 cm) Double Point Ndl. Size 5 (3.75 mm)
Size: needle-8" (20 cm) Double Point Ndl. Size 5 (3.75 mm)
Pattern Cost: Paid Download
Pattern Type: Sweater
Project Type: Knit
Published Circa: 1980's
Size: 38-40-42-44
Yarn Weight: 4 Medium Worsted
Payment & Security
Payment methods
Your payment information is processed securely. We do not store credit card details nor have access to your credit card information.
Why Choose Us
Family Owned & Operated
Founded by Willard and Olive McPhedrain in 1956, Mary Maxim is still owned and operated by the McPhedrain family.
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Since 1956, millions of customers have trusted our product and brand.
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text:
2 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This was the first registration when[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3 And all went to be registered, each to his own town. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed,[b] who was with child. 6 And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.[c]
8 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. 10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger." 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14 "Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!"[d]
15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us." 16 And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. 18 And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.


text:
Fashion Lab Pearl Mallorcan Live
Fashion Lab Pearl Mallorcan Live
Sterling Silver 925 RH Hand Made with white zirconia's round.
it will become your favorite jewel. Daily Basics.
Size Pearl: 5 mm
Length: 1.5 cm
Care Instructions
Care Instructions
Day-to-day Care of Sterling Silver Jewelry
Sterling silver tarnishes when exposed to salty air, chlorine, sulfur, humidity, perspiration, cosmetics, household bleach and other strong chemicals. To prevent tarnish as much as possible, we recommend that you store your fine jewelry in a safe, dry place when engaging in the following activities:
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- Exercising at the gym or during contact sports
- Preparing meals
Pearl Maintenance Tips
1. Last on, first off. Pearls should be the final touch to your outfit. Avoid applying makeup, hairspray, lotion or perfume once your pearls are on.
2. Store them flat. While it's perfectly acceptable for most necklaces to be hung on a cute jewelry rack, your pearl strands should not be. Store pearl necklaces flat to prevent them from stretching.
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4. Wear your pearls often. Pearls do best in a moist environment, so wearing them frequently keeps them from drying out. Easiest. Advice. Ever.
How to Clean Sterling Silver
1. Apply a small amount of silver jewelry cleaner to a soft cloth.
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3. Rinse the silver thoroughly in warm water.
4. Blot dry and shine your silver with our polishing cloth or mitts. This will remove the tarnish and restore shine.
How to Clean Pearls
1. After every wear, wipe your pearls with a soft cloth. This will help prevent any buildup of oils or other substances that may have come in contact with your jewelry throughout the day.
2. Clean with a damp cloth only as needed. If your pearls are visibly stained, you can mix a solution of lukewarm water and mild dish soap, dip a soft cleaning cloth in it and wipe the pearls. Do NOT submerge a pearl necklace in water, as it will weaken the silk thread.
3. Let them dry all the way before storing. Again, this helps preserve the elasticity of the silk strand.
4. Take them to your jeweler once a year. While you want to wear your pearls often to keep them hydrated, all that body oil doesn't do the silk thread any favors. Make sure to have your jeweler check the integrity of your pearl bracelets and necklaces once a year. They can also give them a thorough, safe cleaning.
Never clean pearls with a steam or ultrasonic jewelry cleaner. Both of these methods are likely to damage the outer layer of the pearl.


text:
Gildan 6750 Softstyle® Triblend T-Shirt
Item# 84160
Gildan shirts are a time-tested T-Shirt favorite of professionals and consumers alike. Gildan is known for their exceptional quality at great prices. We can meet and exceed your wholesale clothing needs as we have available a wide variety of Gildan T-Shirts, polo shirts, crewneck sweatshirts, sweatpants, hoodies, and more.


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Why replace with Toyota TrueStart batteries?
- Toyota TrueStart batteries meet or exceed Toyota specifications for all vehicles, and are the approved batteries for warranty repair
- Warranty service available at over 1,200 Toyota dealers nationwide
How often is replacement needed?
- Battery testing is recommended at each regular service visit
Indicators replacement may be needed:
- Age of battery
- Corrosion, stains, or buildup around terminals
- After a jump-start or a long period of battery inactivity
- Sluggish vehicle start, especially during periods of extreme hot or cold temperatures


text:
Your shopping cart is empty
How to purchase online for wholesale ?
If the product is shown with a wholesale price (in the product page), just add it to your shopping cart. In the cart, when all products of that brand/manufacturer reach a minimum they will be shown with wholesale prices in red color (a product line/brand is identified by the first two letters of each product reference, ie. SA). To buy just continue to checkout.
Or please contact us with a list of quantity for each reference you wish to purchase.
You can buy for retail AND wholesale. Products that reach the minimum for wholesale will be shown in the shopping cart in red color.
Is there a requirement for wholesale purchase or do I need a wholesale account?
There are no special requirements from our side. However, remember that customs authorities in destination country may require import procedures or taxes.
Recommendations when purchasing for wholesale colombian shapewear.


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- This event has passed.
Beaver Karaoke / 10pm
March 17 @ 10:00 pm
|Recurring Event (See all)
An event every week that begins at 10:00 pm on Sunday, repeating indefinitely
31,000+ songs from Adam's geeky library.
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Take the piss out of Rihanna.
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Raise their interest in your business with a high quality custom vinyl banner. We will custom make any banner for your business, specifically suited to meet your needs. Our in-house team is ready to get creative to bring you more business. For more information about our banner printing services in Tampa, contact our sales department today 727-458-4462 or e-mail us and we will be glad to help. Directional Signs in Brevard County Businesses that have heavy traffic need something to point customers in the right direction. Directional signs relieve the customer from any confusion they might have navigating a large building or even a parking lot. Instead of having to try to find their way as if they were in a maze your customers can know exactly where they need to go. So if you want to make your building easier to navigate or want someone to find your home business, call us. We can accommodate all your directional sign needs. Magnetic Custom Signs Magnetic signs for your vehicle can be an asset to your company. They are easily changeable, and can be made with your company logo and colors. Magnetic advertising signs are an easy way to represent your company on any vehicle you drive. It will make you instantly identifiable by others. Ocean Palm Graphics can design and produce custom magnetic signs in various shapes and sizes to suit your needs. We produce quality signs at an affordable price. Whatever you�re looking to identify your business or promote your company, call 727-458-4462 or e-mail us today to discuss how we can help you. Custom Signs Create a jaw-dropping outdoor sign. We can create the ideal outdoor signage to enhance your business� image. Tell everyone you are open for business and eager to serve. We are ready to design, and construct custom outdoor signage. We can fabricate your sign and install it for you. We have so many different options to choose from, so call 727-458-4462 or e-mail us to see which would benefit you the most. Custom Made Real Estate Signs & Construction Signs Real estate is very competitive, and a good �FOR SALE� or �FOR LEASE� sign can help you stand out of the crowd. Sometimes blending in is unavoidable unless you have the proper signage. Ocean Palm Graphics can help! We can get your real estate company noticed in Tampa ,St Petersburg Areas and all Gulf Beaches North to Hudson FL ,we service all of Pinellas and Pasco Counties. Whether its commercial or residential real estate doesn�t matter we can still get your name out there. Construction is also vital to our economy and Ocean Palm Graphics can provide any kind of construction signage your business might need. Whether a required city ordinance or a sign to promote your new development, we can help. Business Storefront Signs in Tampa, Floridae Increasing sales is the top priority for businesses after customer service. Attracting new consumers may be hard, but storefront signage can help your business gain new customers. Businesses in Tampa choose storefront signs to help create a buzz that will attract more consumers and let everyone know exactly where they are. Ocean Palm Graphics can design and create a storefront sign specifically for your business. A storefront sign can range from a logo to a name to a sale advertisement; whatever you want we can make. Ocean Palm Graphics has a design team ready to tackle any task you may have. Ocean Palm Graphics can get the ball rolling for your business with a spectacular storefront sign. Vehicle Lettering & Truck Signs A truck is a giant canvas, and there is no reason for it to be blank. Truck signs are an easy way to advertise. They can be seen from all around the areas of Tampa Bay as well as Pinellas & Pasco counties . Ocean Palm graphics can put any combination of color or digital graphics that you want on your truck. Our design team is waiting to customize your truck graphics. Truck advertising has grown for a reason; businesses are getting the results they want. Ocean Palm Graphics can get truck lettering on your truck at an affordable price. Contact us for more information on truck signs. Custom Vinyl Lettering Ocean Palm graphics is your sign service to get world-class custom vinyl lettering. Tampa is a big city, and has hundreds of businesses within it city limits. To get your business out there, vinyl graphics are ideal. They can be used anywhere, from vehicles to walls. Wherever you would like your business� name to appear, we can put it there. Vinyl lettering is easy to apply. We can create custom vinyl graphics that satisfy your signage needs, and our design team is ready to custom design any graphic you can imagine. Tell them what you would like for your vinyl lettering to say and they will make it for you. Your business can stand out from the crowd with vinyl lettering from Ocean Palm Graphics. Call 727-458-4462 Window Lettering in Tampa as well as Pinellas,& Pasco Counties Window Lettering in Brevard County Generate more of an audience with window signs, and keep your existing customers in the know how with window signage. Advertise special sales that are going on within your business to attract a flow of new customers. Window decals are an easy way to advertise products unique to your business. A window sign can place you above your competitors. Become the leading business in your industry with window signage. We can custom design any window sign you would like to see placed in your window. Florida businesses enjoy the benefits of window lettering on a daily basis. Ocean Palm Graphics is the sign source for quality window signage.


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Duvet Covers
Phone Covers
Personalised Gifts
We were founded in 2004 and have shipped over 1 million orders. Buy from one of the world's oldest and most trusted football stores.
Everything we sell is fully authentic and ships from our UK warehouse. Our kits are all official, licensed products and we don't sell fakes.
We ship to every country in the world. We have a mix of shipping options depending on your needs, but can delivery next day to most of Europe, 2 days to USA and 3-4 days to the Rest of the World.
If you aren't satisfied with your purchase, send it back within 30 days via our online return centre (excludes personalised items). We offer extended Christmas returns - all items bought from 1st November - 24th December can be returned until 31st January.
You can get name and number printing on any kit available within our store, in the same style the players wear on the pitch. Choose ANY name - including your own.
That's all! no more products to display
Brighten your home with our AMAZING retro football shirt style cushions for all your favourite club and national teams!
Our mystery bags contain random items at up to 80% discount. Amazing savings to be made - well below website prices!
Over 500 Retro Shirt Designs for your mobile phone from club & international teams.
Check out our amazing, limited edition fan designed concept kits for EVERY country in the world and many major club teams!
Shop our exclusive t-shirt range, with over 500 club teams featured in our range!


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$54.00 $70.00 You Save 22% ($16.00)
Sale price is for in stock butterfly self tie only.
— BTC Exclusive Design —
The perfect pairing for spring of Easter colors within the symbol of peace bow tie.
■ Premium Printed Silk TwillButterfly 2-3/4" The standard bearer of all bow ties! Our 2-3/4" butterfly is our most popular and versatile shape. Designs are created with the 2-3/4" butterfly in mind so the patterns fit perfectly for this size. Note: This 2-3/4" medium sized butterfly is slightly larger than what you find in retail stores. For a smaller comparable bow tie, please see our Butterfly 2-1/4" below. Dimension: 4-1/4"W x 2-3/4"H | |
Diamond Point 2-3/4" The pointed end is on one side of the front panel and on the opposite side of the back panel when tied. A very popular shape as well. The asymmetric look gives the bow tie and pattern a sense of movement, but still maintains visual balance. Dimension: 4-5/8"W x 2-3/4"H | |
Butterfly 2-1/4" A slightly smaller medium sized butterfly. This is the size of butterfly found in many men's retailers. The butterfly is by far the most popular shape of bow tie and has room to show off the pattern. If you like your bow tie in the medium to small size range then this is the bow tie for you. Dimension: 4"W x 2-1/4"H | |
Diamond Point 2 -1/4" The pointed end is on one side of the front panel and on the opposite side of the back panel when tied. A very popular shape as well. The asymmetric look gives the bow tie and pattern a sense of movement, but still maintains visual balance. Dimension: 4-1/2"W x 2-1/4"H | |
Straight Edge 1 -3/4" Also called bat wing or razor edge narrower bow with no curve to body. It gives out a cleaner and sharper look that is still classic. Most suitable on people with slim faces. Dimension: 4-1/8"W x 1-3/4"H | |
Butterfly 3" A larger butterfly most suitable for Big & Tall men with wider jaw line or fuller faces. It helps keep your overall look in proportion. Dimension: 4-7/8"W x 3"H | |
Butterfly 3-1/2" A large Butterfly made for the person who wants an exaggerated butterfly shape. A statement bow tie. Dimension: 5-1/8"W x 3-1/2"H |
Self Tie By far the most popular bow tie we sell is the self tie. The self tie is the epitome of bow tie style since you can tie it exactly how you like it. Make it slightly askew to tell the world you tied it yourself. Once you learn to tie a bow tie you become a member of an exclusive group that ties their own bows! Our self tie is a step above the competition with beautiful jewelry quality cast buckles that adjusts the neckband to your exact specification. No messing with limited settings on button or hook adjusters, ours simply slides to any setting you choose. | |
Pre-tied Our pre-tied bow ties are actual self-tie bow ties that we individually hand knot and then our seamstresses permanently lock tight with an invisible stitch. This way, even an expert bowtier would not be able to tell whether you tied it or knot! The second mark of a well made pre-tied is a quality hook and clasp to attach the neckband. Our clasp is really something special with the look and feel of fine jewelry. | |
Clip-on The clip-on is quick to put on or take off, plus it fits easily in your pocket when not in use! The metal clip on the back of the bow tie attaches directly to the shirt collar. |
Standard USPS Shipping | $5.95 (Standard U.S. Postal Service) or Free with 3 or more items purchased. |
FedEx/UPS 2 Day*** (U.S. only) | $14.95 or $9 with 3 or more items purchased. • "Ready to Ship" bow ties and pocket squares please refer to Rush Delivery Schedule table below. • "Made to Order" items take 3 weeks plus shipping time. |
Canada ‡ | $14.95 (U.S. Postal Service Air Mail) |
International ‡ | $22 (2-3 weeks U.S. Postal Service Air Mail. No tracking.) |
*** Business days to continental U.S. only. ‡ For Canadian and international order, the package recipient is responsible for all duty and tax on the orders. All purchases must be paid in U.S. currency. • For orders shipped to Maryland, 6% sales tax will be applied. |
FedEx/UPS Expected Delivery Day | ||
Day Ordered (Before 4pm Eastern Time) | FedEx/UPS 2 Business Days | FedEx/UPS 3 Business Days |
Monday | Thursday | Friday |
Tuesday | Friday | Saturday |
Wednesday | Saturday | Tuesday |
Thursday | Tuesday | Wednesday |
Friday | Tuesday | Wednesday |
Saturday | Wednesday | Thursday |
Sunday | Wednesday | Thursday |
We make exchanges simple, just email us: email@example.com Tell us your name and invoice number and what "Ready to Ship" items you would like to send back and what new items you need. We will then send you the new items along with a free mailer for your return items.
We will gladly accept any return within 60 days of purchase. Item must be unworn in its original packaging. Please include a copy of the invoice or a note explaining what needs to be refunded and send insured or with delivery confirmation to:
The Bow Tie Club, Returns Dept.
618 Center Point Way #83310
Gaithersburg, MD 20883
All "Made to Order" items can only be returned for defects in quality of fabric or workmanship within 60 days of purchase. Please include a copy of the invoice and a note explaining the problem or defect and send insured or with delivery confirmation to:
The Bow Tie Club, Returns Dept.
618 Center Point Way #83310
Gaithersburg, MD 20883
All refunds will be to the original form of payment or store credit.
Any questions on exchanges or returns simply email us: firstname.lastname@example.com


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A U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent was shot and killed this morning while on duty near Bisbee, Ariz., the Department of Homeland Security tells The Associated Press and other news outlets.
Another agent was shot and wounded, AP says.
According to KPHO-TV in Phoenix, "both agents worked out of the Brian Terry station in the Tucson sector."
That station, as ABC15 in Phoenix reminds us, was "renamed in the honor of an agent who was killed in the line of duty in December 2010." Two of the weapons found at the scene of Terry's death were traced to the "Fast and Furious" program run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The program allowed guns to go south of the border in a botched attempt to track drug cartel kingpins.
We'll update with news about today's shootings.
Update at 1 p.m. ET. Agents Were On Horseback:
According to the Arizona Republic, "three agents were on horseback about 7 miles east of Bisbee and 8 to 10 miles north of the border and responding to a ground sensor that had triggered, said George McCubbin, president of the National Border Patrol Council, a work union representing border agents called the National Border Patrol Council." The third agent was not injured.
McCubbin also said no suspects are yet in custody.
Update at 10:30 a.m. ET. Agents Were Investigating Movement:
KPHO-TV reports that "the agents were investigating a sensor that was triggered, indicating something that was moving across the area," according to "Carol Capas of the Cochise County Sheriff's Office, one of two investigating agencies."
Update at 9:30 a.m. ET. Other Agent's Wounds Not Life Threatening:
ABC15 now adds that Border Protection spokesman Brent Cagen says the second agent suffered "non-life threatening injuries."
Copyright 2021 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


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Brown Paper Tickets Event Organizer Terms of Usage and Agreement
Effective date: May 25, 2018
By creating an account and listing events on the Brown Paper Tickets website, you agree to the terms of usage described below.
Brown Paper Tickets is an independent company providing ticketing and registration services for Event Organizers. Brown Paper Tickets is not affiliated with any Event Organizers or others providing services or events for which tickets or registration is purchased. Brown Paper Tickets is solely acting as an intermediary between Event Organizer and ticket purchaser and/or the event attendee for specific events. Brown Paper Tickets assumes no liability incidental to the event for which tickets are sold or purchased.
- Event Organizer – For purposes of these Terms, if you use the Brown Paper Tickets system to create and list an event, you are an "Event Organizer". An Event Organizer is also sometimes referred to as a promoter, producer, ticket seller, venue representative, or other authorized agent(s) providing services or events and is hereinafter referred to as "Event Organizer".
- Authorized Seller - Event Organizer agrees they are authorized to sell tickets for events or services. Fraudulent representation by an Event Organizer, or of event(s), is a criminal offense, which voids this agreement and allows Brown Paper Tickets to provide full refunds to event attendees. Brown Paper Tickets will assist law enforcement in prosecuting any fraudulent use of Brown Paper Tickets services, and will legally seek any and all compensation for damages due to fraudulent representation.
- Data Security – Event Organizer will have access to attendee personal information. Event Organizer agrees to protect attendee personal information, and further agrees not to use the data in any way inconsistent with any local, state, federal, United Kingdom, European Union, or other data privacy laws or statutes with jurisdiction. Should Event Organizer sell tickets or registration to citizens protected by the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), Event Organizer agrees to respect and abide by the GDPR transparency, consent, accuracy, data deletion, and other requirements.
- Amendments – From time to time Brown Paper Tickets will need to amend these Terms, and Brown Paper Tickets reserves the right to do so at any time. If these Terms are modified in any way, the next time you log in to your Brown Paper Tickets account, you will be prompted to review the new Terms and you will be given the opportunity to review them before you list any subsequent events.
- Event Promotion and Advertising - This Agreement does not obligate Brown Paper Tickets to promote or advertise any event listed with Brown Paper Tickets. Event Organizer acknowledges and understands it is Event Organizer's sole responsibility to promote and/or advertise the event.
- Ticket and Registration Pricing - For most events, Brown Paper Tickets provides Event Organizer with ticket sales services with no initial fees or start-up charges, unless specifically agreed upon. Ticket and registration pricing is solely determined by Event Organizer. Event Organizer is exclusively responsible for all city, municipal, county, district, state and federal taxes.
- Ticket Purchaser Fees - Ticket purchasers will pay a service fee as defined on the Brown Paper Tickets Pricing Page.
- Ticket Availability and Venue Capacity - Event Organizer is responsible for setting the number of tickets available for purchase for each event. Event Organizer agrees that the number of attendees is within the legal fire regulations and venue capacity limitations as set forth by the city, municipality, county, district, state, and/or federal codes and/or laws. If more event attendees have tickets or are registered than the venue capacity allows, Event Organizer agrees the full ticket price, plus any and all Brown Paper Tickets services fees, will be refunded to ticket or registration purchasers who were not allowed entry. Event Organizer further agrees that Event Organizer will pay Brown Paper Tickets for the full ticket price and refunded service fees that are refunded due to over sale. Brown Paper Tickets reserves the right to withhold payment to Event Organizers for up to 90 days after an event ends for events where attendees were turned away due to over sales.
- Event Cancellation - Event Organizer agrees to notify Brown Paper Tickets immediately after the decision to cancel an event is made using the attendee notification tool on the Brown Paper Tickets system. Brown Paper Tickets reserves the right to issue full refunds to ticket and registration purchasers, including service fees, for the canceled event. Event Organizer agrees that if an event is canceled and full refunds are issued to ticket buyers, Event Organizer will pay Brown Paper Tickets for any and all service fees originally charged to the ticket buyer, and additional costs, including but not limited to, credit card charge back fees related to refunding tickets. Fees will apply for physical tickets that need to be exchanged.
- Rescheduled Events - Event Organizer agrees refunds will be given to ticket and registration purchasers for rescheduled events at the purchaser's request. Should a ticket or registration purchaser request a refund due to a rescheduled event, Event Organizer agrees to pay Brown Paper Tickets for any and all service fees originally charged to the buyer, and costs, including but not limited to any and all credit card charge back fees related to refunding tickets due to rescheduled events.
- Change of Event Venue or Change of Event - Should the listed event venue change for any reason, Event Organizer agrees that refunds will be given to ticket and registration purchasers at the purchaser's request. Additionally, should there be a change in the event, Event Organizer agrees that refunds will be given at ticket or registration purchaser request. Should a ticket or registration purchaser request a refund due to an event venue change or event change, Event Organizer agrees to pay Brown Paper Tickets for any and all service fees originally charged to the ticket buyer, and costs, including but not limited to, any and all credit card chargeback fees related to refunding tickets due to a change in the event venue or the change in the event.
- Ticket Refund Policy - Event Organizer agrees that Brown Paper Tickets may refund the face value of event tickets or registrations purchased through Brown Paper Tickets until ticket sales for that event end. Event ticket sales are final after sales have ended.
Account Settlement
Ticket Sales Processed into the Brown Paper Tickets Merchant Account.
Generally, Brown Paper Tickets will mail a check/cheque payment, via USPS in the U.S. or Canada, to Event Organizer within ten (10) business days after the event end date. However, Brown Paper Tickets cannot guarantee Event Organizer will receive the check within ten (10) business days due to sometimes inconsistent delivery times by the United States Postal Service. If Event Organizer has not received the check twelve (12) days after the check has been issued, Brown Paper Tickets will issue a replacement check upon Event Organizer request, and put a stop payment on the original check, at no charge to Event Organizer. If Event Organizer does not want to wait 12 days after the check has been issued to issue a replacement, Event Organizer can request a replacement check, but must pay a US$12.00 fee to stop-payment the original check.
Payments for event tickets purchased in Pounds Sterling (GBP £) or Euro (€) will be direct deposited into Event Organizer's bank account, generally ten to fifteen days after the event ends.
Should Event Organizer be delinquent in payment of any loans, costs, and/or fees to Brown Paper Tickets for any other or prior scheduled event or contractual agreement between Brown Paper Tickets and Event Organizer, Event Organizer agrees that Brown Paper Tickets may offset any such outstanding balances with funds from a current event prior to paying Event Organizer. Event Organizer agrees and understands that Brown Paper Tickets has the right to withhold any and all payments to Event Organizer for up to 90 days after the end of the event for any reason.
Ticket Sales Processed through Event Organizer's Credit Card Processor into their own Merchant or Other Account.
An Event Organizer may choose to process credit card purchases into their own merchant account, or through their PayPal account. In these cases, Event Organizers assume all responsibility for credit card processing charges and fees, as determined by their arrangement with company they utilize. Brown Paper Tickets will continue to provide all ticketing and registration services but for the actual credit card processing. The standard Brown Paper Tickets service fees will still be paid by the ticket or registration purchaser, but will be balanced out in the following manner:
Event Organizer Merchant Account: All ticket and registration service fees will be deposited directly in Event Organizer's merchant account. Brown Paper Tickets will invoice Event Organizer for current fees as published on our pricing page. Event Organizer agrees to pay Brown Paper Tickets the agreed upon service fees within 30 days after the event ends. Interest will apply to delinquent balances at 12% annually. If payment of service fees is over 30-days delinquent, Brown Paper Tickets reserves the right to discontinue processing sales through the Event Organizer's merchant account and instead process their event sales through the Brown Paper Tickets merchant account.
PayPal Account: At the time of purchase, the full amount paid by the attendee, including service fees, will be sent to the Event Organizer's PayPal account. Immediately following, PayPal will automatically send service fees back to Brown Paper Tickets. Current service fees are published on our pricing page. Event Organizer will be left with the face value of purchase in their PayPal account. Event Organizers using PayPal to collect payments are required to abide by PayPal's terms of service.
- Will Call Tickets - Event Organizer may offer will call tickets for events. However, even if Event Organizer is not offering will call tickets for an event, Event Organizer agrees to accept a limited number of will call tickets to individuals who for whatever reason either did not receive their tickets, or because they don't have access to their electronic or print at home tickets. Brown Paper Tickets will provide a list of such ticket purchasers to the Event Organizer prior to the event.
Indemnification and Hold Harmless
At its own expense, Event Organizer agrees, acknowledges, and understands it will indemnify and hold harmless Brown Paper Tickets, its officers, agents, employees and assigns, from and against all claims, demands, losses, costs, penalties, damages, judgments and suits at law or in equity, of whatsoever nature (hereafter "actions"), brought against Brown Paper Tickets arising from, in connection with, or incident to the performance of, or failure to perform the provisions of this Agreement by Event Organizer, its officers, agents, employees or assigns. Event Organizer further agrees to defend Brown Paper Tickets in any litigation, including payment of any costs or attorney's fees, for any claims or action commenced thereon arising out of or in connection with such acts or activities authorized by this Agreement.
The above indemnity obligation shall not include such claims, costs damages or expenses that may be caused by the sole responsibility of Brown Paper Tickets. Additionally, if the claims or damages are caused by or the result from the concurrent negligence of (a) Event Organizer, its officers, agents, employees or assigns and (b) Brown Paper Tickets, its officers, agents, employees or assigns, this indemnity provision shall be valid and enforceable only to the extent of the negligence of Event Organizer and that of its officers, agents, employees or assigns.
- Severability - If any term or provision of this Agreement or the application thereof to any person or circumstances shall, to any extent, be invalid or unenforceable, the remainder of this Agreement, or the application of such term or provision to persons or circumstances other than those as to which it is held invalid or unenforceable, shall not be affected thereby and shall continue in full force and effect.
- Limitation of Liability - Event Organizer understands and agrees that Brown Paper Tickets shall not be liable for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential or exemplary damages, including but not limited to damages for loss of profits, goodwill, use, data or other intangible losses (even if Brown Paper Tickets has been advised of the possibility of such damages). Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion of the limitation or exclusion of liability for incidental or consequential damages. Accordingly, some of the above limitations may not apply to you. In no event will Brown Paper Tickets' total cumulative damages exceed US$100.00.
- Disclaimer of Warranties - Event Organizer understands and agrees that the Brown Paper Tickets ticketing service is provided on an "as is" and "as available" basis, and that Brown Paper Tickets assumes no responsibility for the timeliness, deletion, failure to store, or retention of any user communications or personalization settings. Brown Paper Tickets will not be liable for failure to perform any obligation under this Agreement if such failure is caused by Internet outages or delays, unauthorized access (hacking), earthquakes, communications outages, fire, flood, war, an act of God, or the occurrence of any other unforeseen contingency beyond the reasonable control of Brown Paper Tickets.
- Ownership of Intellectual Property - Event Organizer agrees not to post material that Event Organizer does not have an ownership right of patent, copyright, and/or other intellectual property right to. Brown Paper Tickets reserves the right to remove any content from an event page or custom Event Organizer page that may infringe on the intellectual property rights of a third party.
If a dispute arises out of or relates to this contract, or the breach thereof, and if said dispute or breach cannot be settled through negotiation, the parties agree first to try in good faith to settle the dispute by mediation under the Commercial Mediation Rules of the American Arbitration Association, before resorting to arbitration.
Any dispute arising out of or relating to these terms and conditions, or the breach thereof, that cannot be resolved by mediation within 30 days shall be finally resolved by arbitration administered by the American Arbitration Association under its Commercial Arbitration Rules, and judgment upon the award rendered by the arbitrator may be entered in any court having jurisdiction. The arbitration will be conducted in the English language in the City of Seattle, Washington, United States, in accordance with the United States Arbitration Act. There will be one independent arbitrator, named in accordance with such rules. The award of the arbitrator shall be accompanied by a statement of the reasons upon which the award is based. The arbitrator shall decide the dispute in accordance with the substantive law of the State of Washington in the United States. For international disputes, discovery rules will be provided by the International Bar Association Rules on the Taking of Evidence in International Commercial Arbitration. The arbitrator has the authority to award reasonable attorney and collections fees in addition to any other award.
Governing Law and Venue - The parties agree that any dispute will be governed by the laws and codes of the State of Washington, United States. The parties further agree that in the event any legal action is instituted, mediation, arbitration, or any other legal action, by either party, jurisdiction and venue will be in the City of Seattle, State of Washington, United States and/or in the federal Western District of Washington at Seattle in the United States.
- Brown Paper Tickets abides by PCI-DSS requirements to protect credit card holder information.
- Entire Agreement - This Agreement, together with all attachments hereto, constitutes the entire agreement between the parties. There are no terms, obligations, covenants or conditions other than those contained herein. No modification or amendment of this Agreement shall be valid and effective unless evidenced by an agreement in writing.