text:
King James Version
1Kings 18
1 And it came to pass after many days, that the word of the LORD came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab; and I will send rain upon the earth.
2 And Elijah went to shew himself unto Ahab. And there was a sore famine in Samaria.
3 And Ahab called Obadiah, which was the governor of his house. (Now Obadiah feared the LORD greatly:
4 For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)
5 And Ahab said unto Obadiah, Go into the land, unto all fountains of water, and unto all brooks: peradventure we may find grass to save the horses and mules alive, that we lose not all the beasts.
6 So they divided the land between them to pass throughout it: Ahab went one way by himself, and Obadiah went another way by himself.
7 And as Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah?
8 And he answered him, I am: go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here.
9 And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me?
10 As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not.
11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here.
12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.
13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?
14 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me.
15 And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day.
16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah.
17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?
18 And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim.
19 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.
20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
41 And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain.
42 So Ahab went up to eat and to drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees,
43 And said to his servant, Go up now, look toward the sea. And he went up, and looked, and said, There is nothing. And he said, Go again seven times.
44 And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab, Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down, that the rain stop thee not.
45 And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel.
46 And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah; and he girded up his loins, and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.


text:
Get fronted for the cost of home improvement services with no interest — ever.
Compass Concierge is the hassle-free way to sell your home faster and for a higher price with services like staging, flooring, painting, and more.
Learn how we can help sell your home faster and for a higher price with Concierge.
Becks & Berringer Team
Real Estate Team
[email protected]
Your Compass agent will help you determine which services can deliver the greatest return on your investment.
The entire process is designed for speed, so that work can begin — and your home can sell — as quickly as possible.
You'll never have to worry about upfront costs or interest.
Your Compass agent will be by your side throughout the process, advising you along the way.
"The thing that was the most daunting for me about selling the home was how would I get it to market, based on being retired and have limited income. And that's where the Compass Concierge service was absolutely remarkable."
Julia, Seller | Oakland
See what a difference this program makes for yourself right here.
Our goal is for Concierge to help as many clients as possible. The program is intentionally flexible; we've developed Concierge to be used with most vendors for your convenience.
You'll pay once one of the following happens (whichever occurs first): - Your home sells - You terminate your listing agreement with Compass - 12 months pass from your Concierge start date.
Easy! Call your Compass agent today to find out how to participate. Not yet working with one? Use the form to get started.
This information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a solicitation, recommendation, offer or promise to provide services. Rules & Exclusions apply. Compass offers no guarantee or warranty of results. Home must qualify under Compass Concierge guidelines. Subject to additional terms and conditions. Compass reserves the right to refuse, reject, or cancel the program for any reason at any time without liability.
Concierge Capital loans are provided by Notable Finance, LLC, NMLS# 1824748 and are made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Lenders Law license. Loan eligibility is not guaranteed and all loans are subject to credit approval and underwriting by Notable. Compass is not a lender and is not providing loans as part of the Compass Concierge program.
Our team's motto is "never say no, we'll find a way to make it work". We welcome the opportunity to meet you and your family and commit to providing you with a wonderful real estate experience. Our phone is always on and we look forward to the opportunity to meet you.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Thea Twisted Low Heel Espadrille
Product Details
• Upper: Leather
• Lining/Sock: Leather/Other
• Outsole: Synthetic
• Handmade in Spain
• Wipe clean only
Shop all footwear.
Delivery and Returns
Standard: £3.95 or FREE when you spend £50
Delivered within 2-4 working days. During Sale orders may take longer to arrive.
Click & Collect options
Crew Stores: FREE
Orders will arrive within 1-2 working days. On a Bank Holiday weekend, orders after 5.30pm Friday will arrive in store by the following Wednesday.
Hermes Parcel Shops: FREE when you spend £50 or more.
Orders will arrive within 3-5 working days. We'll email you to inform you of the progress of your delivery and to let you know when the parcel is ready for collection. When visiting us to collect your parcel, please remember to show your email / text proof of purchase, along with a proof of ID.
Express delivery: £5.95
Order by 4pm and receive your order within 1-2 working days. Excludes Salcombe Gin products.
International - Click here for full details.
Returns - Click here for more information.


text:
Welcome to our website! As we have the ability to list over one million items on our website (our selection changes all of the time), it is not feasible for a company our size to record and playback the descriptions on every item on our website. However, if you have a disability we are here to help you. Please call our disability services phone line at (214) 638-2681 during regular business hours and one of our kind and friendly personal shoppers will help you navigate through our website, help conduct advanced searches, help you choose the item you are looking for with the specifications you are seeking, read you the specifications of any item and consult with you about the products themselves. There is no charge for the help of this personal shopper for anyone with a disability. Finally, your personal shopper will explain our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service, and help you place an order if you so desire.
Open to the Public
Monday - Friday: 9AM to 430PM
Saturday: 10 AM to 4 PM
Handcrafted in Reading, Pennsylvania, BlueStar cooking products are designed for discerning home chefs who demand restaurant-quality results in their own kitchens. Our commitment to precision in form and function is why many top chefs consider BlueStar to be the world's top-performing residential cooking equipment.
Built with the highest-quality materials and the distinctive workmanship that comes from 130 years of expertise, BlueStar turns up the heat on home cooking with a fully customizable line to suit the specific cooking needs of the accomplished home chef. Available in a painter's palette of colors, and with near infinite configuration possibilities, BlueStar premium cooking products deliver restaurant magic to the home kitchen.


text:
ArieleLee video. All videos (5)
ArieleLee webcamIf I were to say one thing about me, it would be that my laugh is contagious. I enjoy life with all that it brings and I'm very excited to be here. If you make me laugh, well, let's just say I'll make you hard and screaming with pleasure! Let's get to know each other!


text:
No matter the distance, staying hydrated while on the bike is key. Designed to fit a variety of bottle cages on the market, along with an easy squeeze design to ensure more liquid with less effort, Podium is equipped with a self-sealing cap for less spills and splatters. The on / off valve provides a positive lock out for leak-proof transport and all parts are 100% free of BPA, BPS, and BPF. Podium offers best-in-class hydration so you can stay focused on the ride.
A new design and improved cleanability maintains the Podium bottle's position as the best-of-the-best within the cycling industry. This premium bike bottle prioritizes performance and excellent cage fit above all else for both professional and recreational users. Easy to squeeze and always BPA free, the Podium is the ultimate bottle for rapid and reliable hydration.
- Double-walled construction: keeps water cold twice as long
- Optimized cage fit: Engineered to securely fit in a variety of bottle cages
- Easy squeeze: get more fluid with less effort
- High flow, self-sealing cap: maximizes flow rate while eliminating splatters and spills
- 100% free of BPA, BPS and BPF: ride clean, drink clean
Part Numbers
Option | UPC | MPN | Store SKU |
Race Edition - Red / 21-ounce | 886798031187 | 1874606062 | POD29778063D |


text:
Drug Information
Indapamide is a thiazide-like diuretic used, either alone or in combination with other drugs, to treat high blood pressure and to prevent salt and fluid retention associated with heart failure. Indapamide may interact with nutrients and herbs in ways similar to interactions described for thiazide diuretics, such as hydrochlorothiazide. However, research has not investigated these interactions specifically for indapamide.
Common brand names:
LozolSummary of Interactions with Vitamins, Herbs, & Foods
Replenish Depleted Nutrients
Potassium-depleting diuretics, including thiazide diuretics, cause the body to lose potassium; they may also cause cellular magnesium depletion, although this deficiency may not be reflected by a low blood level of magnesium. Magnesium loss induced by potassium-depleting diuretics can cause additional potassium loss. Until more is known, it has been suggested that people taking potassium-depleting diuretics, including thiazide diuretics, should supplement both potassium and magnesium.
People taking thiazide diuretics should be monitored by their prescribing doctor, who will prescribe potassium supplements if needed. Such supplementation is particularly critical before surgery in patients with a history of heart disease. In a preliminary study, people with low blood levels of potassium (in part related to diuretic use) had a higher incidence of serious problems resulting from surgery (including death) compared with those having normal potassium levels. A double-blind trial showed that thiazide diuretic use led to a reduction in blood levels of potassium in some participants. Those experiencing decreased potassium levels were also more likely to experience cardiovascular events, such as heart attacks, stroke, heart failure, aneurysm, and sudden cardiac death. Fruit is high in potassium, and increasing fruit intake (especially bananas) is another way of supplementing potassium.
Magnesium supplementation for people taking thiazide diuretics is typically 300–600 mg per day, though higher amounts (over 800 mg per day) have been reported in a controlled study to reduce side effects of thiazides. Combining supplementation of both potassium and magnesium has been reported to correct abnormally low blood levels of potassium and also to protect against excessive loss of magnesium.
- Zinc
Thiazide diuretics can increase urinary zinc loss.
- Folic Acid
One study showed that people taking diuretics for more than six months had dramatically lower blood levels of folic acid and higher levels of homocysteine compared with individuals not taking diuretics. Homocysteine, a toxic amino acid byproduct, has been associated with atherosclerosis. Until further information is available, people taking diuretics for longer than six months should probably supplement with folic acid.
The interaction is supported by preliminary, weak, fragmentary, and/or contradictory scientific evidence.
Reduce Side Effects
Support Medicine
Reduces Effectiveness
Potential Negative Interaction
- Dandelion
Herbs that have a diuretic effect should be avoided when taking diuretic medications, as they may enhance the effect of these drugs and lead to possible cardiovascular side effects. These herbs include dandelion, uva ursi, juniper, buchu, cleavers, horsetail, and gravel root.
Use buckthorn (Rhamnus catartica, Rhamnus frangula, Frangula alnus) or alder buckthorn for more than ten days consecutively may cause a loss of electrolytes (especially the mineral potassium). Medications that also cause potassium loss, such as some diuretics, should be used with caution when taking buckthorn or alder buckthorn.
- Licorice
Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra) may increase the side effects of potassium-depleting diuretics, including thiazide diuretics. Thiazide diuretics and licorice should be used together only under careful medical supervision. At the time of this writing, no evidence was found of interactions between deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL) and any diuretic was found in the medical literature.
Digitalis refers to a family of plants commonly called foxglove, which contains digitalis glycosides, chemicals with actions and toxicities similar to the prescription drug digoxin. Thiazide diuretics can increase the risk of digitalis-induced heart disturbances. Thiazide diuretics and digitalis-containing products should be used only under the direct supervision of a doctor trained in their use.
The interaction is supported by preliminary, weak, fragmentary, and/or contradictory scientific evidence.- Ginkgo
One case was reported in which ginkgo use was associated with high blood pressure in a person treated with a thiazide diuretic. Ginkgo was not proven to be the cause of this reaction.
The interaction is supported by preliminary, weak, fragmentary, and/or contradictory scientific evidence.
Explanation Required
- Calcium
Thiazide diuretics decrease calcium loss in the urine due to actions on the kidneys. As a result, it may be less important for some people taking thiazide diuretics to supplement calcium than it is for other people.
Diuretics, including thiazide diuretics, cause increased loss of sodium in the urine. By removing sodium from the body, diuretics also cause water to leave the body. This reduction of body water is the purpose of taking diuretics. Therefore, there is usually no reason to replace lost sodium, although strict limitation of salt intake in combination with the actions of diuretics can sometimes cause excessive sodium depletion. On the other hand, people who restrict sodium intake, and in the process reduce blood pressure, may need to have their dose of diuretics lowered.
- Vitamin D
The reduction in urinary calcium loss resulting from treatment with thiazide diuretics is due primarily to changes in kidney function and may also be due, in part, to changes in vitamin D metabolism. However, there is no evidence to suggest that people taking diuretics have different requirements for vitamin D.
Last Review: 03-18-2015
Copyright © 2024 TraceGains, Inc. All rights reserved.
Please read the disclaimer about the limitations of the information provided here. Do NOT rely solely on the information in this article. The TraceGains knowledgebase does not contain every possible interaction.
Learn more about TraceGains, the company.
The information presented by TraceGains is for informational purposes only. It is based on scientific studies (human, animal, or in vitro), clinical experience, or traditional usage as cited in each article. The results reported may not necessarily occur in all individuals. For many of the conditions discussed, treatment with prescription or over-the-counter medication is also available. Consult your doctor, practitioner, and/or pharmacist for any health problem and before using any supplements or before making any changes in prescribed medications. Information expires December 2024.
Topic Contents
This information does not replace the advice of a doctor. Healthwise, Incorporated, disclaims any warranty or liability for your use of this information. Your use of this information means that you agree to the Terms of Use. Learn how we develop our content.


text:
Your garage is empty. As you search our store and select vehicles, they will be automatically added to your garage. For now, please select your vehicle from the make, year, model boxes to the left
If you don't know the part number, we suggest using the make, year, model selector first. If you know the part number and it fails, try an alternative lookup, we might have the part you are looking for but we might reference it via the manufacturer or distributors number.


text:
Privacy Policy
What Information Do We Collect?
We collect personally identifiable information in order to identify and register you as a TCC Associates customer. In addition, we collect personal, financial and product information in order to provide you with services tailored to your particular needs. By learning about you, TCC Associates can deliver more relevant product offerings and thus offer you better insurance services and options.
The information we collect will vary depending upon the function or processes you select or request. Depending upon the function, product or process you select (for example, quote, request for proposal, e-mail, purchase), you may be required to provide information such as:
- Name
- Address
- Birthdate
- Phone number
- E-mail address
- Policy(ies) Type(s) & Number(s)
- Social Security Number
- Driver's License Number, accident/violation history, information about vehicle operators, lien/lease holders, vehicle information, garaging address, etc.
What Kind of Customer Information Do We Have, and Where Did We Get It?
Much of the customer information we collect comes directly from you. When submitting your application or request for insurance or other products and services we offer, or in requesting an insurance quote, you may give us information such as your name, address, and Social Security number. We also keep information about your transactions with our affiliates, others, or us – for example, the types of products and services you purchase from us, premiums, policy account balances and payment history. We also may collect information from outside sources, including consumer reporting agencies or reporting agencies. This information includes loss information reports, motor vehicle reports, credit reports, etc.
Who Collects This Information?
In order to better serve your particular needs, the information noted above is collected by TCC Associates , its agents, and other companies working on behalf of TCC Associates. In addition to collecting information from you, you should also know that, depending on the nature of your transaction, we may collect information from outside sources, such as loss information reports, motor vehicle reports, and credit reports. For property insurance, we may send someone to inspect your property and verify information about the value and condition of your property.
How Is This Information Used?
The information you submit to us via our on-line forms and e-mail is used to provide you with the response or service you have requested.
We may also use this information to contact you about our products and services. If you do not wish to receive these communications, you can write us, e-mail us or simply reply to any e-mails you receive from our employees informing us of your desire to be removed from our mailing lists.
Who Has Access to This Information?
In order to better serve your particular needs, TCC Associates, its employees, and certain companies working on TCC Associates behalf have access to this information. This information may also be disclosed to third parties without your consent if disclosure is necessary to comply with legal processes or to protect the rights, property, or personal safety of TCC Associates, its users or the public. We may also provide limited information about you to third parties without your permission when necessary or appropriate to service an insurance policy we have issued (e.g., inquiries from lien holders or additional insureds listed on the policy) or to address claims submitted under a policy we have issued.
In addition, we may, as permitted by law, provide information about you without your permission to certain persons or organizations, such as: your agent or broker; insurance support organizations; insurance companies in order to perform their function in regard to an insurance transaction involving you (i.e. a claim); independent claim adjusters; businesses that conduct actuarial or research studies; regulatory and law enforcement authorities; or our affiliated companies, if any.
What Are Your Options Regarding Collection, Use, and Distribution of Your Information?
Any information you submit to us via written applications, our Web site's on-line forms or e-mail is done so on a voluntary basis. When you access our site in this manner, the collection, use, and distribution of your information will be handled according to the terms and policies outlined in this Privacy Statement. If you object to the collection, use, and distribution policies outlined in this Privacy Statement, we ask that you do not submit information.
What Are Your Options Regarding Correction or Storage of Your Information?
You may either personally see, or obtain from us by mail, the information about you in our files. If you believe the information we have about you in our records or files is incomplete or inaccurate, you may request via telephone or a postal mail letter that we make any necessary additions or corrections or, to the extent that it is feasible, that we delete this information from our files.
Links and Co-Branded Sites
This Web site contains links to other sites. TCC Associates provides links to other sites as a convenience to persons who visit the TCC Associates web site. If you choose to use the services provided by those sites, you may be asked by those sites to provide certain personally identifiable information (some of which may, on an individual or aggregated basis, be shared with TCC Associates). Please be aware that TCC Associates is not responsible for the privacy practices of those sites, even though TCC Associates name or logo may appear on those sites. We encourage you to be aware when you leave our site and to read the Privacy Statements of each and every Web site that you visit, as the privacy policy of those sites may differ from ours.
Who Should Use Our Web Site?
Our Web site is for insurance and financial products and services and is not intended for children. We offer insurance and financial products and services and thus do not market any products or services to children under the age of thirteen or knowingly collect any information from children under the age of thirteen. If we become aware that information is or has been submitted by or collected from a child under the age of thirteen, we will destroy this information.


text:
Our Painting By Numbers kits allows you to paint at your own tempo, making it a terrific way to relax and decompress from daily stresses. You don't need any previous painting skills; all you have to do is color the highlighted areas of the canvas with the corresponding colors from your kit. Your talented fingertips will bring the Flanders Field Painting by numbers to life, revealing a magnificent masterpiece.
Benefits of Paint By Numbers:
- Painting offers relaxation: Paintings can make you feel happier, calmer, and more relaxed. It is an amazingly easy way to relieve stress and get pent-up emotions out. Making your worries fade away temporarily. Even those who cannot paint can paint their feelings through this approach.
- Experiencing Success: In the Paint By Numbers approach, the completion of a picture can provide a great sense of achievement. Thus, improving self-confidence and inspiring creation.
- Increased Attention Span: Painting by Numbers is proven to enhance your focus and concentration.
- A Perfect Gift Choice: If you find it hard to get an appropriate gift for your beloved ones, the Painting by Numbers kit Is the ideal meaningful gift. it is The perfect choice as a gift for Christmas, Thanksgiving Day, New Year's Eve, Birthdays, and any other occasion. Not To forget that it's suitable for both children and adults.
What's In our Flanders Field Painting by numbers kit:
- 1x Numbered acrylic paint set (About 24 different colors, depending on the painting).
- 1x Numbered high-quality linen canvas.
- 1x set of 3 paint brushes (1x small, 1x medium, 1x large).
- Reference paper and a copy of the canvas so you can follow up on the numbers quickly.
How Painting By Numbers Works:
- Step 1:
Prepare your Paint By Numbers kit. Lay your acrylic canvas out on a flat surface. Organize your paint and apply base layers.
- Step 2:
Follow the numbers. Match the number of paints to the numbered areas on the canvas.
- Step 3:
Enjoy your Paint By Numbers Artwork. Stand proudly back and admire your masterpiece! Posting your work on social media is also recommended.


text:
We've made it quick and convenient for you to manage your blog like a boss!
First Publish your site, then login directly to your live website on desktop or mobile.
Make sure you sign in with your Wix account, so you'll be logged in as the admin to your blog.
You can manage your blog and post from your live website. Just log in to your blog with your Wix account.
Now you're ready to write, edit and manage posts. Just click Create a Post and hit Publish. That's it. It's live for all your readers to see. Plus, you can manage all your post comments too - see what people are saying, like or delete comments & more.
If you've been working on a post and want to come back to it later, save it as a draft. You can Publish it at anytime, just head to My Profile > Drafts.


text:
Monday, August 30, 2010
Open thread about AE #672
I'm listening to the show right now, and I just finished with Denise the Christian caller hanging up on Matt. Good stuff. Want more. Our thanks to the person who taunted her into it.
91 comments:
This is one situation where I think Matt's anger got the better of him and he gave the caller an excuse not to focus on what the hosts were saying, but instead to switch tracks and get all 'offended' by the curse word. I realize he said he was tired and a bit cranky, but I think this is a case where they were providing good counter-arguments to the theist, and while Denise was probably unlikely to change her mind, some of the fence-sitters listening may have been able to hear some good counter-arguments to theistic views.
ReplyDeleteThe best part was listening to Denise agree to all of the logical premises, then reject the obvious and undeniable conclusion from those premises as "messed up."
Wow. You couldn't have planted a fake caller who could have done a better job of proving your point than that.
It's a great demonstration of how people are essentially incapable of thinking properly when they're into the cult that deep.
There's something scary about people who have a warm fuzzy at an altar when they're down on their luck, and use that as an excuse to swallow all the bad ideas and ridiculous claims they're being fed by whatever cultural soup they find themselves immersed in. "B' never follows from "A" in that situation, but it's pathetic how many people are hoodwinked into believing that it does.
I had a fundie co-worker like that, who actually thought their personal born-again experience actually led directly to the idea of biblical inerrancy. There's no way experiencing the one thing inside your head could possibly lead to the conclusion of the other thing in any universe that makes any sense. But he acted like it was the most natural conclusion in the world - based on nothing but his enablers in the church telling him so.Oddly, you've never seen me angry.
I didn't curse at her, I didn't call her names, I simply used a word that she didn't like and she used it as an escape hatch by feigning offense. She was in over her head and was looking for a way out.
If I'd have remotely suspected that she'd use it as an excuse, I might not have said it...but I would have only been avoiding it in order to keep pointing out how stupid her arguments were. I'm able to do that without having her on the line constantly repeating "that's why he's called the savior" as if we're dullards.I understand your frustration but I think it was unnecessary. Having seen most of the shows I also know it is extremely rare. If anything I would have expected Jeff to drop the word :)
It is somewhat ironic that this happened right after the "Don't be a dick" discussion. While I'm not offended by words and can see how this is no attack on the person and was used as a escape route, it seems to me this is exactly the type of example Phil & co have in mind. If a clip of this is shown out of context, it is definitely not helping the cause."I didn't curse at her, I didn't call her names, I simply used a word that she didn't like and she used it as an escape hatch by feigning offense. She was in over her head and was looking for a way out.
This is basically what I was going to say in your defense.
Denise was--I'm sorry--a little bit of a hard-headed dope, anyway. So she was offended by the F-word. Well, guess what Denise: You are not the only one who is capable of being offended. I find your inane, immoral beliefs offensive. It's like you guys always say on the show when Hell comes up: Infinite punishment for finite crimes?---that's patently offensive to any moral human being who is thinking clearly. It's far more offensive that the F-bomb. I mean, do we have to list all the things her religion advocates that are endlessly more offensive than "Fuck"? Give me a break.Rewinding the audio, Denise says:
"I run a Facebook, it's called The Holy Bible Page, and one of the atheists kinda challenged us to call in, so I did."
I found this, it's quite popular:
I can't see any way to link it to Denise, anyone else want to try another one?I'm torn on this one. Firstly I must say the Denise was every bit as confrontational as any single word Matt could have said. She was just being as mule headed as she could possibly muster and had no intention of thinking logically. She was all about pointing out how dumb we were for not taking the life preserver. Never mind the water was put there specifically to drown us by the same being now throwing the preserver.
But...and I almost dislike myself for this, I wish we hadn't thrown out the F bomb. I have teenaged daughters. Do we swear? Sure, occasionally. I'm not going to bust a seam about it. But I also think it's over use tends to lessen it's value and is often used as a lazy short cut by the unimaginative. I would never accuse Matt of either of these, but I must give the point to the theist. I just would not have broken it out in that case. There's still a part of me that enjoyed it, especially in context with the whole Dick-atholon we've been having. It's what I would often love to say, mind you. But the Denise jumped on the lack of civility and I must agree. Even though she was possibly less civil, no one will see it that way.
She really did say some stupid things, though. Especially following every point up to the conclusion and then simply dismissing as if she doesn't require logic to make a point.
Classic.It really is an important distinction that Matt's "cursing" at her was not done in an insult. He wasn't degrading her. He just used the F-word to express his exasperation. It's just a word. I think folks are reacting to the caller's reaction more than to what Matt actually said and how she said it. The fact that she got all flustered and melodramatically offended (couldn't you just picture her through the phone clutching her pearls and hoisting her wrist to her forehead?) doesn't automatically mean that her taking offense was warranted. My guess is old Denise gets "offended" by a lot of things that are benign. I guess I'm one of those skeptics who is hurting the cause--because I don't really give a fuck how many Denises are offended. Some people have programmed themselves to be offended by anything that isn't deferential to their worldview.
ReplyDelete- Anonymous8/30/2010 4:08 PM
I'm just surpised you can cuss on day time TV... although I dunno what rules you got going on there with that public access thing.
That aside, I think you could have done better with Denise. I would have preffered you ask her why she thinks the benign act of belief or disbelief is something that's considered serious enough to send someone to eternal torture.
And since most atheists could not sincerely believe even if they wanted to, are we REALLY sending outselves to hell? I almost said that I agree with Justin B. but...honestly if she really was looking for an "excuse" to get offended and hang up, she probably wasn't worth talking to anyway. And clearly she wasn't interested in having any kind of meaningful discussion. The whole "You're making me do this to you" thing is not only illogical but a hallmark of abusive relationships and she was totally missing the point.
ReplyDeleteI think focusing on the topic of god and hell right off the bat might have set the position of implicitly agreeing to the premises that these concepts actually exist - at least in Denise's mind.
Instead of dwelling on that topic it might have been better to simply reply that there's no indication that god/hell/etc actually exist. That really gets to the heart of the matter instead of some tangential point.
For example when she said "what do you think happens when you die?" that would have been a good point to go into the concept of soul/spirit and why one would have any reason to believe that, or believe in God in general.
Just my take.I'm familiar with Denise on a few Facebook pages. She is quite nutty. Most of her posts involve the same circular logic and rigid adherence to dogma. I am not one bit surprised that she hung up on Matt. She "blocks" all the atheists on the pages that she frequents. Usually it is after she gets her ass handed to her in a discussion so she does the same thing...claims the person is rude or uncivil and blocks them.
ReplyDeleteThis is why DBAD fails. Denise says out right that anyone who isn't like her deserves to have the most horrible horrible things done to them forever, but Matt is the rude and offensive one for referencing intercourse?
I actually am glad that Matt let the F bomb dropped. It showed the contrast. She goes up to Matt and Jeff and says "You are disgusting and deserve to go to hell for spitting in the lord jesus's face when he throws you a life saver" and then calls THEM rude. Irony, doin it right.@Nathan: "I do find it funny how curse words are 'dirty' or 'offensive'; however, being told I'm going to burn for eternity isn't?"
I was thinking the same thing. An expletive about fornication is pretty tame compared to being cool with a person being tortured for eternity. And not just a person...there are billions of people that don't follow her particular view of Christianity. That's a lot of torturing.It was the best of calls, it was the worst of calls.
(paraphrasing)Matt: If your god made hell and made
the rule sending people to hell then your god is responsible
for sending people to hell.
caller: That is so messed up.
Matt and Jeff: Yes!
Score!!! Excellent! I love it when they make
our point for us.
(Although with my "Score" comment I'm being a dick by taking
this as a petty personal contest.)
The threat of hell is extortion. Denying that is then special
Denise was a dishonest brainwashed propagandist.
But then the F-bomb.
I don't buy the rationalization that it is "just a word",
"just a phoneme". Calling "fuck" just a word is like saying
"In God We Trust" is just "ceremonial deism".
Words have meaning. They do express reason
and they do express emotion. That "fuck" was
not an expression of reason.
There are such things as fighting words. "Fuck" is in
that family. The word "fuck" has been used in
the discourse preceding every barroom fight. I'm sure it
is quite seldom used when helping children with their math homework.
Matt's use was an expression of emotion. It might be argued that it
was an expression of "frustration" but I think an impartial
observer would have viewed it as anger.
One thing I learned in my debates, if you get emotional you
lose. It's a sign that your reason is not up to the task.
And the bastard wins. Even if his argument failed, he
messed with your emotions.
One doesn't have to get the one-up on every debater. The debater
is not the judge. The audience is the jury. I hope and believe
that a great number of Christians are in the audience. A great number
of Christians will acknowledge that they don't believe in hell.
They would have been sympathetic with Matt... until he
turned into a pottymouth.
So, we had a mixed day.
Overall... AETV is doing essential work.
Everything I have written above is based on reason, evidence, and
critical thought. Therefore it is True.
And if you disagree with me then why the fuck did you read it?
xoxox SueActually I'm glad Matt said this word at that point and that Denise didn't like it, forcing her to hang up.
First of all, it's her problem if she's offended by a single tiny word, attributing it some kind of magical power, even when it's not used to curse her (and it's not like hell isn't worse than "fuck"). Maybe she took that more as an excuse to end the call than anything else. I mean, if a discussion should be stopped every time someone says an offending word, where would humanity be today? (That said, as often as possible we should try to abstain from using these words in the slight possibility that it might end an intelligent conversation, though it should not.)
But my biggest issue with that caller was that she was not open to any idea, she didn't even seem to be able to understand what Matt and Jeff were telling her, even if the logic problem behind her belief was undeniable. If the discussion had went on, I'm sure it would not have been for long as she was probably only calling to tell atheists that they were going to burn in hell. I think she was preaching. Either her or the hosts would have been repeating themselves and nothing would have been accomplished in the long run.
But I did enjoy the call while it lasted though, as I always enjoy theist callers who don't even understand (nothing is missing, they just don't understand, end of sentence).I had a bit of a chat with Denise on the bible FB page after the call.
I probably got a little bit too aggressive on my posts in there while staying pretty moderate I though which got me disabled from posting on public discussion pages for a day. Today I read about them flagging everyone that didn't agree, and since I talk a lot, I got banned fast.
I think she was dealt with right and was just looking for a way out of the call. We almost got her to call back, then she said maybe next week, but I doubt it will happen.
Kudos on the show guys, keep up fighting the good fight :D
-DustinI think the last caller's question :- what is more important : truth or happiness, is the crux of the belief in the supernatural for a lot of prople.
As an atheist, I must accept the reality that death does really mean the end of everything; my thoughts and memories will all vanish at that instance. Like the vast majority of people, no one past my grandchildren (if I have any) will remember anything about me. My very existence will be quickly erased by the passage of time. Soon, it will be as if I never actually existed. Sure, I may leave behind a genetic legacy in my decendents, but all that is uniquely me, i.e. my consciousness, will be gone forever. In a larger timescale, there will even come a day when the last living thing on Earth will be roasted to oblivion by our dying Sun.
Surely, the knowledge of our collective mortality is depressing. A lot of people I've talked to who hold on to theistic/supernatural beliefs (including my father), cannot accept this reality. For them, its much more comforting to believe that their essense will somehow be preserved, in an afterlife or reincarnated or whatever, after their physical demise. They will cling on to this belief despite all the evidence to the contrary. Sadly, I think those who hold a materialistic/atheistic worldview will always be a minority, because the truth is simply unbearable for most people.Yes, Denise seemed to be looking for a way out and seized on Matt's F-word as a way out.
When people are losing an argument, they'll often play a "bad manners" card as an escape hatch.Yeah, I also have to say that I'm a bit disappointed about how the talk with Denise went because it was probably on of the best chances to convince many fence-sitters that their beliefs are ungrounded and also immoral. It was all going sooo well, you, guys, were clearly showing the caller how dumb her position on going to hell is (that we send ourselves to hell and not god) and then, bang!, she was gone.
And it could have been so awesome:) She was really stubborn and confrontational but it was obvious that pure logic was going to literally demolish her and reduce her arguments to some irrational babbling...
Oh well, maybe next time...In regards to the (presummably_ Christian claim that their god does not send people to hell- if that is truely the case, then Hitler never sent anyone to the concentration camps and Stalin never sent anyone to the gulags. They all sent them selves when they went against the the wishes of these two.
"I do find it funny how curse words are 'dirty' or 'offensive'; however, being told I'm going to burn for eternity isn't?"
Pretty much exactly what I thought after the caller hung up. I find it just amazing how Christians NEVER think it's actually offensive to be told you're going to burn in hell for eternity. I personally find it incredibly offensive to be told this, especially in the nonchalant manner the caller said it. Dropping an F-bomb that wasn't even aimed at her was definitely not out of bounds for me. Maybe some people just need to grow up and be fucking adults about words.
Although I do wish that hadn't happened at all so she would have stayed on the line longer. It did give her an easy out so she wouldn't have to stay on the phone and actually answer any of the questions she seemed to be having issues with. Though if you hadn't given her a reason to hang up she probably would have come up with another reason.@Question Everything: May I just point out that the guy in yout link is a bit of a 'quantum new ager'? He is certainly very knowledgable and intelligent but whenever you hear the word "quantum" mentioned 80 times in the first 15 minutes you start to grow suspicious. After googling his name I find out that he starred in 'What the bleep do we know?' which is not the greatest show of reliability and several big shots in physics went on record to criticize his theories which seem to be disproven by calculations.
ReplyDeleteJD said
"Instead of dwelling on that topic it might have been better to simply reply that there's no indication that god/hell/etc actually exist."
Could not agree less with the above comment.
The call started with statement by the caller "I actually believe in a literal hell"
Matt and Jeff took this premise and showed how "screwed up" it is even within the callers own worldview.
To me this was big admission by the caller probably the most thoughtful thing she said during the whole call.Not sure if it has been said or not, but I bet Denise hung up not because of the swear word, but because of the attitude she received on the show.
I would agree that she deserves such an attitude, because she basically called into the show to tell you guys you were going to hell, and we all know that is Jeff Dee's big red button.
However, if she had called in to the show when it was, say, Russell Glasser and Tracy Harris, I think the discussion would have been a lot more productive, and she would have been made a much better example of.
In the end, her admitting that "that's messed up" was more than enough out of that call.It has been said that the reason for the success of this show is that, in the past, callers like Denise would have the errors in their beliefs explained with great precision and patience.
Lately, this has given way to blowing tops way early, and even though it has been repeatedly mentioned as detrimental in the past, it still happens :(
Denise was a model caller. After all, every show it is said that is the sort of caller we want and usually do not get. So, a lot more time could have been devoted to explaining her faults (and, by proxy, the faults of many believers) as has been done to great effect in the past.
I still think it was a good show and I hope to see a youtube clip soon with the "that's messed up" conclusion. :)@Phil
What sort of attitude SHOULD we give her? She's a nasty hateful person who thinks its fine to call up people and tell them they deserve to be thrown into a concentration camp after death. If we removed the mythology from it she would be right along side skin heads and neonazis for batshit insane bigotry.This is in response to what Martin wrote about the whole "dick" thing. ("...it seems to me this is exactly the type of example Phil & co have in mind.") This is not directed at Martin. I just came across something on Bad Astronomy that sheds a little light on the subject.
According to Phil Plait, Matt swearing like that is perfectly acceptable. He posted the video of Penn and Teller's vaccination episode. Someone asked him if he was being a dick in what he wrote about the episode, and he had this to say, "I'm not being a dick. As I said in the talk, and in the subsequent posts, we need our passion and our anger. But I didn't insult them, or use ad hominems or anything like that. Being forceful is not necessarily the same as being a dick."
Matt didn't insult Denise or use ad hominems. He was just passionate. Clearly, he wasn't a dick according to Phil himself. If Phil ever decides to post a response to Matt's challenge, and brings up this incident as an example of Matt being a dick, Matt can provide the link to the comment.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/08/30/penn-and-teller-take-on-vaccines/#comment-295379Let's consult the bible to see if God sends people to hell.
Luke 12 (4-5)
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.Raymond, the point you miss is that although Denise was soundly and amusingly contradicted in her statements, it was essentially over a theological detail. If she considers it at all she's apt to simply readjust her theology.
My point was that by staying within the caller's worldview you might score some minor concessions, but nothing that's likely to affect the big picture. I still think it would have been more effective to bring up why anyone would believe in hell in the first place rather than try to make points within their theology.Never having been a believer, I can't quite grasp this: do people just breaking and denying a valid syllogism do this deliberately even though they understand the validity, do they unconsciously, reflexively do it to protect a preconception, or do they really simply not understand logic?
From the relatively little I know of psychology, I'd say it's the second; repression of an uncomfortable thought, self rewarding by brain chemistry for preserving an opinion that already has a positive connotation.
There must be a psychically painful 'BZZZZT' moment in the mind of the Denises, I think, when the valid conclusion bashes into the one they were certain to reach, so they refuse to acknowledge the result and press a mental 'reset' or simply make a wild leap. No wonder it's a favorite to claim that logic is contingent with God - it simply cuts away the possibility that any syllogism may reach an opposite conclusion.I listened to the call and I understand Matt's anger. He had been patient with her for long enough and her "arguments", which she was repeating over and over again, were appallingly dumb. The only problem with the F bomb is that she used it as an excuse to hang off, while I think they were burying her good with their arguments.
Bill O'Reilly was on David Letterman once, and at one point Letterman said "I don't know where you are wrong, but I get the distinct impression that you are full of shit"
I suspect that Denise was feeling similar. She may be taking the time to process this information, or she may have just passed it off as verbal chicanery.@Felix
I wonder the same thing lately. Actually it's becoming more interesting to me than the actual argument for their faith. Very rarely do I hear anything new from theistic ramblings, so it's really not that interesting. But they often are so detached from all possible problems within their thinking and don't follow their own thoughts through to a conclusion. That is interesting. Are they unable or unwilling?Denise, at first, seemed like a really potentially interesting call. That much is true.
A minute or two into the discussion, however, it became pretty obvious that she wasn't really interested in discussion. She wanted to proselytize, nothing more. She made bold religious assertions and, when the hosts offered their thoughts and arguments about those assertions, she just kept repeating the assertions as if no argument had been made. And then accused them of repeating themselves. Of course they were repeating themselves--they asked you a question, and you pretended you didn't hear them!
I don't even bother talking to people like that. They are simply not interested in discussion, only conversion, and anything you say will go in one ear and out the other, or else will be cherry-picked and tailored to fit their preconceived notions.
From what I'm hearing on this thread, it sounds like she does this often anyway. She launches into a religious debate, gets creamed, and then flounces off with complaints about tone. Matt may have pretty much gift-wrapped her excuse for her, but I don't really believe it would have continued much longer without her fabricating some excuse. All Matt really did was save her the trouble.It's extremely difficult (or near impossible) to get people like Denise to appreciate the logical problems and self-contradictory nature of their beliefs.
The Bible actually says that God "throws people in hell," yet the actual words are either unknown to Denise, or deemed unimportant, or explained away in service of the idea that people "choose" to go there.
It's preposterous, but the idea that it's god's fault (and will) that you're in a torture chamber is too much for her mind to handle.
The mental construct she has in her mind called "god" would never do that to people - god loves us, right? So if something plain as day in the Bible contradicts that, the Bible needs to be ignored, downplayed, or the offending passage interpreted like a pretzel until the cognitive dissonance goes away.
It's completely twisted.
When it comes to either obeying logic and reason, or upsetting the applecart of their entire way of living, logic loses every time with these people.I've noticed a theists only tactic against reasoning is through emotion and they use circular reasoning to provoke a strong emotional response. For them, it is a victory. For us it is an annoyance.
I am glad Matt released the F-bomb. I learned more when Denise was not interrupting and keeping Matt from making his point.@Phil: "Lately, this has given way to blowing tops way early... "
In most cases I don't think this is so, certainly not with Denise. Denise had avoided questions several times and clearly had no intent to engage with or respond to the points being put back to her. This eventually leads to people becoming frustrated. This is different from blowing ones 'top' early.
It's something of a trend I keep noticing, that a spiritual believer can stonewall throughout a whole conversation - and nobody says anything. When, inevitably, the other person (skeptic or atheist) loses their temper - this is seized upon.
"Denise was a model caller."
Nah, there have been plenty of Christians who call in convinced they are right, and are capable of responding to whatever AETV throw at them. Denise was determined not to back down from the very beginning.
"So, a lot more time could have been devoted to explaining her faults (and, by proxy, the faults of many believers) as has been done to great effect in the past."
But that's exactly what they were doing - and she ignored it entirely. She accepted every single premise that Matt laid before her... then just swept it all away with frustrated petulance.
These are not the ones to be polite to: politeness from us is just an invitation for Christians like Denise carry on in the same way.I went back and listened to the call this morning and I don't think it's fair to say that Matt was just being grumpy and shouldn't have cursed at her. Others have pointed out that he was being very very patient with her, and he was. If you go back and listen to Denise, she's very smug and strident in her manner of "discussing" with Jeff and Matt. She didn't know what she was in for. She just wanted to call up and present her horrible "Jesus is a life saver" argument and preach at them. I would have loved to have heard the conversation go on longer without Matt's F-bomb, but honestly, she was a really frustratingly smug lady presenting really tired and often-repeated arguments...heck, not even arguments...just bald assertions.
ReplyDelete"How many of you no longer believe those things because someone got in your face screaming and called you an idiot?"
I've thought over it again, and in this case I think Matt was indeed justified in blowing his top, losing his cool, whatever you want to call it.
In the spirit of this open thread, I want to add some acutely applicable video content.
Phil Plait - Don't be a Dick
The above quote is from this video- Anonymous9/01/2010 6:25 PM
If I told Denise that offended by the word "God", would she refrain from saying it? I'm offended daily by people wearing a Christian Cross. Will Denise help me ban them? I'm offended by churches on every street corner. Will Denise help me get the properties rezoned?
Denise needs to grow up. However since she still clings to an imaginary friend I don't see her growing up any time soon.
Perhaps Denise needs to go in her closet and think about it for a couple centuries. The thing I noticed is that Denise was clearly looking for an excuse to hang up before the f-bomb dropped--hence the "get a word in edgewise" comment. She expected a soapbox and a couple of rubes who would be impressed with her bumper sticker platitudes, and instead she got Matt and Jeff.
She called them "ridiculous," said that rejecting Jesus was the "dumbest thing you could possibly do," but she got high and mighty over their incivility? Yeah, screw her and the horse she rode in on.@Ing
"What sort of attitude should we give her?" Rational, civil, and unshaken. Let her win the race to the bottom.
"... I understand Matt's anger." (playing believer's advocate:) Of course. He's an atheist. Atheists are angry.
Yeah, the F-bomb prevented Matt from exposing Denise's almost certain next fallacy: the special pleading that it is good/right/OK when God enforces torture.
"I've noticed a theists only tactic..." The tactics of dishonest theists are legion. (There are honest theists, e.g. Martin Gardner.)
"Denise ... had no intent to ... respond..." No. She answered questions. She was difficult but she answered questions. She acknowledged that God created hell. She acknowledged that God made the rules. (And kudos to Matt for getting that far. He could have gotten farther.)
"When, inevitably, the [atheist] loses their temper..." Whoa. No. Why should we get angry when someone is demonstrating their irrationality right in front of No God and everybody?
(end of part 1........... part 2
(Sorry, I didn't realize this was so long. But I hope you think it
is worth posting.)
".. petulance." No. When someone starts using sailor swears, whether it is about atheism or federal reserve policy, I sense that I am not dealing with an enlightened individual and that the conversation has deteriorated to an unproductive level.
"politeness from us is just and invitation for [theists to] carry on.." Let them. Let them carry on making asses of themselves. Let them win the race to the bottom. We are gaining the high ground. Secularism is on the rise. Kitzmiller v. Dover drove a stake in theocracy's heart. The recent Prop 8 decision drove it in harder.
My two cents:
Your typical theist only thinks one fallacy ahead. They will often admit one fallacy when they think they have the corresponding apology in their pocket. But of course the apology is also fallacious. Let them lay out and commit to the apology before pointing out its fallacy. Rinse and repeat.
Let them lay out their whole string of apologies. Layout the whole string of fallacies without demanding the theist accept them. (The audience will decide for themselves.)
If Matt had gotten to the mafia boss extortion analogy I believe Denise would have apologized that God tortures non-believers for "right" and "good" reasons. Then Matt could have countered citing the special pleading fallacy.
There are honest theists. I've only encountered two. Their only honest argument is "I like this story. It makes me feel good." I say, Go in peace my friend (but don't try to convert my kids).
xoxox SueThe religious are explicitly taught to argue in bad faith. It's why religious discussion has gone precisely nowhere despite thousands of years of activity. There's no policing and no accountability. They can run the gamut of rational fallacy from ad absurdum to wishful thinking with impunity -- who the fuck (yes, who the fuck) is going to call them on it? In science, if someone makes a boneheaded claim, their paper gets filed under "birdcage fodder" and their employment may well get terminated. If some devout good-for-nothing pushes mushy-headed tripe at the pulpit, at worst, they'll get shuttled off to do outreach work. More likely, and especially if they were boisterous in their sermonizing, they'll attract a big fat flock of authority-seekers, join the regional circle of like-minded cajolers, and spend the rest of their working career drinking good bourbon and playing golf five-and-a-half days a week.
The religious just love to wax philosophical about how those that lack a God lack a moral compass. Guess what? The people WITH a God demonstrably lack a moral or ethical compass, since what they have< amounts to a series of childish "because I said so" unqualified appeals to authority. Denise is like someone who came to play chess, lost five pieces in ten moves, then turned over the table in a huff when the opponent had the gall to say "you fucked up." That doesn't make her righteous; that makes her stuck-up, short-tempered, and outright craven -- wasn't she supposed to be witnessing for a just god under attack?
Ugh. Sorry to rant, but I just got out of a discussion with an intelligent design freak who, after about exactly twenty-five minutes of failing to make a solid point, gave me the "well, it's all just your belief" line and walked out with his nose in the air. Honestly, I'll say that the Denise conversation would have gone better without the "fuck." However, she's the one in the wrong here; a real advocate would have marched right on with renewed vigor after that.
Really, I have very little problem with her taking offense; prima facie, civility's not an onerous request. My problem is with her taking her offense and walking out with it. In formal debate, a critique of language, form, or procedure is usually employed to gain breathing room and to get the other party to ratchet back their rhetoric, not to expedite a hasty exit from the room. It's a verbal parry, and as such, it's valid and useful so long as it's followed by a riposte or rebuttal of some sort. Even if she'd said, "let's all cool our heads and talk about this next week," she'd have actually taken some high ground -- I don't think there's a lot Matt could have said to that, save, "lookin' forward to it." Except...well, now I'm beating a dead horse to death, after seventy others have had their say.
In short, I hope she calls again. She automatically gets to claim to her flock that she has "reformed" the behavior of the hosts, because TAE hosts won't give her that particular opening again. She'll get plenty of advice back in her little enclave, if she doesn't ban or ignore everyone that tells her she could have done better. Heck, maybe she'll call in sober, now that she's aware (if not in a paradigm-shifting way) that she was on the track to quickly losing a very basic argument.
Keep it up, TAE. I'm watchin' the next one live.The religious are explicitly taught to argue in bad faith. It's why religious discussion has gone precisely nowhere despite thousands of years of activity. There's no policing and no accountability. They can run the gamut of rational fallacy from ad absurdum to wishful thinking with impunity -- who the fuck (yes, who the fuck) is going to call them on it? In science, if someone makes a boneheaded claim, their paper gets filed under "birdcage fodder" and their employment may well get terminated. If some devout good-for-nothing pushes mushy-headed tripe at the pulpit, at worst, they'll get shuttled off to do outreach work. More likely, and especially if they were boisterous in their sermonizing, they'll attract a big fat flock of authority-seekers, join the regional circle of like-minded cajolers, and spend the rest of their working career drinking good bourbon and playing golf five-and-a-half days a week.
The religious just love to wax philosophical about how those that lack a God lack a moral compass. Guess what? The people WITH a God demonstrably lack a moral or ethical compass, since what they have< amounts to a series of childish "because I said so" unqualified appeals to authority. Denise is like someone who came to play chess, lost five pieces in ten moves, then turned over the table in a huff when the opponent had the gall to say "you fucked up." That doesn't make her righteous; that makes her stuck-up, short-tempered, and outright craven -- wasn't she supposed to be witnessing for a just god under attack?
(cont'd -- if the first, unbroken one got through in spite of the error, then moderator, please ignore this post and the next)(from above)
Ugh. Sorry to rant, but I just got out of a discussion with an intelligent design freak who, after about exactly twenty-five minutes of failing to make a solid point, gave me the "well, it's all just your belief" line and walked out with his nose in the air. Honestly, I'll say that the Denise conversation would have gone better without the "fuck." However, she's the one in the wrong here; a real advocate would have marched right on with renewed vigor after that.
Really, I have very little problem with her taking offense; prima facie, civility's not an onerous request. My problem is with her taking her offense and walking out with it. In formal debate, a critique of language, form, or procedure is usually employed to gain breathing room and to get the other party to ratchet back their rhetoric, not to expedite a hasty exit from the room. It's a verbal parry, and as such, it's valid and useful so long as it's followed by a riposte or rebuttal of some sort. Even if she'd said, "let's all cool our heads and talk about this next week," she'd have actually taken some high ground -- I don't think there's a lot Matt could have said to that, save, "lookin' forward to it." Except...well, now I'm beating a dead horse to death, after seventy others have had their say.
In short, I hope she calls again. She automatically gets to claim to her flock that she has "reformed" the behavior of the hosts, because TAE hosts won't give her that particular opening again. She'll get plenty of advice back in her little enclave, if she doesn't ban or ignore everyone that tells her she could have done better. Heck, maybe she'll call in sober, now that she's aware (if not in a paradigm-shifting way) that she was on the track to quickly losing a very basic argument.
Keep it up, TAE. I'm watchin' the next one live.@Sue-"Yeah, the F-bomb prevented Matt from exposing Denise's almost certain next fallacy"
That may be so, but Denise was blabbering the same cliché over and over again and after a while it gets tiresome and one gets impatient, especially since she was cutting the hosts systematically (and I think in bad faith) to repeat her credo. I find Matt's impatience perfectly understandable.@Sue:"No. She answered questions. She was difficult but she answered questions."
At the risk of sounding patronising, I fear you're being a tad naive. She answered the questions she found easy. But there came a Rubicon moment where she resorted to, as another put it, 'bumper-sticker platitudes'.
Whoa. No. Why should we get angry when someone is demonstrating their irrationality right in front of No God and everybody?
1) Many ex-theists criticise their atheist friends for not having been forceful enough.
2) Many people don't like being played for 'silly buggers' by having their input swept aside with repeated proselytizing.
3) The 'let them make their own noose' approach only works if there are substantial fence-sitters listening in. Perhaps that was the case here. Often it is not.
4) We're only human ;-P
5) I did say "eventually" lose their temper - perhaps you have the patience to put up with predictable evasions... I'm afraid I don't.I was not gonna comment on the language issue BUT
Sue said
"When someone starts using sailor swears....I sense that I am not dealing with an enlightened individual.."
I am sorry that you like to jump to conclusions about people based on the fact that they use robust langauge.
The claim that by not using the the full range of English vocabulary somehow shows that you are more enlightened, intelligent etc. always amuses me.
Incidently Matt is a former navy man so he is no doubt well practised in the use of 'sailor swears'.The conversation would have been over whether Matt said 'fuck' or not. She would have found some other excuse because she was defeated. This sort of tactic is so common, especially with text based debates. Here are some other common excuses used to run away by theists I have encountered.
-You spelled a word wrong, that means you're wrong.
-You wouldn't understand.
-I just don't have time to explain it to you.
-You're just being hostile.@ Ing:
"You are disgusting and deserve to go to hell for spitting in the lord jesus's face when he throws you a life saver"
To be fair, the nutjob did answer 'no' when queried as to whether or not she thought they deserved hell. Whether or not she was being honest, I can't say for certain, but I only have her word...her crazy, crazy word...I admit that I was shocked when Matt swore at her, and I saw it coming when she hung up; mostly because, as has been mentioned, she was already looking for a way out of the conversation. It might have been better if she had bailed on her own, obviously defeated. Could Matt have handled it better? Yep. Could I have handled it better? A big Fuck No.
But look at it this way; I think there is value in letting theists know when they are wasting our time. We need to let them know that we aren't obligated to sit quiet while they natter on and on about their nonsense, that there are rules to having a dialog, and that when they're talking about their beliefs they might want to keep in mind that there are those who don't agree with, and don't respect, their cherished assumptions.
So what if Jesus died on the cross? So did Spartacus, and he was opposed to slavery...Denise didnt realy have a reason for calling, and seemed very surprised at Matt and Jeffs intelligence! I got the impression she had never had her faith challenged before, she got in too deep and was looking for a way out. Matts use of the f-word was her perfect excuse for getting her ass out of there! Her arguments were BS and Matt and Jeff saw right through her immediately.
It follows from the same "that's messed up tree" replace as the last step that GOd sends people to hell that GOd is just and thus anyone who goes to hell needs to go there. Thus only the deserving go to hell. Again because she doesn't' realize she's being rude is no reason to cut her a break and not inform her that, yes she is damn fucking rude.Let me preface this by saying that the f-word doesn't offend me, and I don't think Matt D is a dick.
But when Matt dropped the f-bomb on Denise, that killed the conversation dead. Yeah, it was her fault the conversation ended, but you gotta understand who your audience is.
If your goal is to get discussions going, you to lay off the f-bomb sometimes. I love you Matt but I think it would benefit the show if you chilled out a little.I don't think I've ever seen a better example on the Atheist Experience of someone noticeably and clearly experiencing the conflict between reason and faith in their mind.
Denise was lead on a path from point A to point B, and upon reaching the destination and realizing where she'd been lead, you could almost hear the clang as her comprehension of the conclusion and her religious beliefs collided in her mind.
It's not often we get to witness a religious person being forced to apply their reason to their faith, but in this instance we did, and the result was beautiful. You can pinpoint the moment where malfunction occured...That split second between Matt stopping talking and her exclaiming "that's so messed up!". They are the moments from which atheists are made.Episode #668. Time 0:08:15 to 0:09:45.
"... about being vitriolic with believers. I'm totally down with that. There is no reason to be hostile." ...
"The most outspoken advocates of ... rational thinking, skepticism ... are all ex-believers." ...
"Some peoples' minds do change." "The one you might be tempted to throw hostilities at right now might turn out to be an ally later on." ...
"Try to keep the vitriol down, because that very often may be the only thing holding them back from realizing that their position is unstable and not on solid ground."
xoxox SueSince this is an open thread about AE #672; Just a couple of interesting details about Kevin from the UK's call regarding what was said about English money.
1."God save the Queen" is the national anthem and does not appear on the money.
2.A picture of the Queen however does appear on one side of Bank of England notes.
3. Charles Darwin appears on the reverse side of a £10 note.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/taxome/jim/Mim/darwin.htmlThat discussion with Denise was another big fail from the AETV crew. It wasn't that big a deal, so there was no real reason to swear. The entire conversation was yet another example where the Atheist Experience crew aren't being "dicks", theyre just failing co communicate effectively. When Denise claimed that atheists send themselves to hell, you both simply went "nuh huh", "yuh huh" at one another without really explaining anything. What you should've done is stepped back and say "ok so by what process do I arrive in hell due to my atheism...lets play a scenario. I'm an atheist, I don't want to go to hell. When I die, what's the process of things that happen to me?" Leading her down the logical road you can bring her to the point of cognitive dissonance and point at that and say "ah HA, there is the problem".
This applies to many previous calls too. When someone disagrees with you, simply pointing out the truth sometimes doesn't cut it. If they fail to understand from your simple stating of something, you don't need to rephrase yourself a zillion times, you need to step back and go into things in more detail!
The last time AronRa and Matt were on the show together, when the theists called in you both (but Aron in particular) gish galloped after gish gallop! It was painful to watch! Sure, you pointed out all these logical and moral inconsistencies in the bible. Look at this, look at this, look at this! Yes, we all know that you're right, and it may be effective at showing other viewers that this person is a fool, but you do nothing to help the person being gish galloped understand why they're wrong! Don't make a zillion points at them without hearing their reply. Look at what they've said, and break it down point by point, through a process that will ensure that they understand what you're saying. Do not go off onto tangents, that simply introduces possibilities to side track or add confusion.
The Atheist Experience has been seriously frustrating me recently, so I hope you guys can turn it around.Well, the biggest part of such an exchange is to show the viewers of such an exchange why this or that is wrong. Rarely will you ever get through to the person you are actually talking to. They're invested in the conversation and trying to save face. Why work like crazy to get that to that one person you're talking to (with such a low chance of getting through to them) when by other methods you can show any number of believing audience members why this or that idea is wrong or messed up?
You guys did good, and all Denise wanted to do was preach. She would have found some weak excuse to flounce away offended no matter what you did. And this is still the best atheist podcast EVAR!!!This is a situation, like so many others, where a fundamentalist Theist uses the "offence" at someone dropping an F-bomb as an excuse to cower away from an argument where she is being cornered into throwing her hands up and saying "Believe what you want".
I too would have liked to know why the F-Bomb she called, but given her Victorian attitude to simple words which only have the power to offend if people are weak-willed enough to allow them to, I doubt we'll ever get an answer to that, although I can speculate that she was trying to present an argument that might be convincing to more of the weaker-willed viewers of the show who might be convinced by such paltry "logic" as what she was trying to present.
PLEASE NOTE: The Atheist Experience has moved to a new location, and this blog is now closed to comments. To participate in future discussions, please visit http://www.freethoughtblogs.com/axp.
This blog encourages believers who disagree with us to comment. However, anonymous comments are disallowed to weed out cowardly flamers who hide behind anonymity. Commenters will only be banned when they've demonstrated they're nothing more than trolls whose behavior is intentionally offensive to the blog's readership.
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.


text:
Welcome to the WhoCalls
support forum.
Before entering a query/request please search the forum to see if someone else has asked the question before. Please feel also free to respond to queries from other users if you have experienced the same type of problem and found a solution to it. Our support team will monitor this forum and endeavour to provide answers to the queries posted. Please make sure to post your query to the right forum as there is a separate forum for each application provided by MAW Software. |
Show messages for: | Last 7 days | Last 30 days | All | (Digest of all) |
CGIForum (C) Markus Triska


text:
It's late when you return home. You pay the babysitter, who slips out the door and rides away on his bicycle into the warm night. You make yourself some tea - ginger peach, with ice cubes to stay the heat - and sit in the darkened living room, listening to the quiet, wondering how late the husband will be, thinking about how tired he will be in the morning.
Thinking about how tired you will be in the morning.
You take your tea and climb the stairs. The child was fine, the babysitter said. She cried when you left and protested his accompanying her to the park, but very quickly decided that the swing was the thing, and that it didn't matter who accompanied her there. They had had a good evening, he said. She'd gone to sleep easily.
You stand outside her door, and listen to the soft whirr of the fan above your head. She'll be sprawled across her bed - yes, her bed, the crib having been disdained for more sophisticated comforts - her feet pressed up against the safety bar, her arms thrown back above her head, one set of chubby fingers clutching her lovey. Long legs, long torso, long toes; her body is so much less a baby's in sleep, her limbs stretched in full extension, a dancer frozen in mid-flight. Her face, though. In repose her cheeks bloom like cabbage roses and her mouth settles into a soft round O, a perfect little berry. You would want to nibble those cheeks, were you leaning over her, brushing soft blond wisps back from her forehead. You would want to run a finger over her impossibly pink lips. You would want to breathe in all of the baby that remains of her, breathe it in and hold it in and never exhale.
But you don't, you won't, because she is sleeping and because this is not your time to be with her; this is night-time, sleeptime, dreamtime.
You go into your bedroom and sit down on the bed and sip your tea, cool now from the ice. The cat winds its way around your legs, flicking its tail against the back of your knee. You think about getting ready for bed.
You didn't say goodnight to her, of course. The babysitter would have said goodnight. She would have asked for you, though. You know this. You can hear it, almost, if you shut out the sounds of the night: the lilt of her voice, the little trill on the last syllable of 'Mommy,' the question hanging in the night air. Mommy?
You want to go in. You want to go in and climb into bed beside her and pull her to you and kiss the top of her head. You want to rest your hand on the swell of her belly, feel the rise and fall of her breath. You want to breathe her in. You miss her.
You don't know why, but you miss her.
Sitting on your bed, you feel the whole of your future spill out before you like so much ribbon, unfurling onto the floor, a mess of loose tangles. You feel the unfolding distance, the lengths that will stretch between you, even as she remains within arm's reach. You feel the future quaver in your heart, that quaver that will come when she insists that you no longer call her baby. When she asks to be left alone. When she shuts the door against you and hides away in that room, holding her mysteries tightly, pressing them against her chest and shielding them from your view.
That moment will come. You know it. You will smile bravely, if uncertainly. You will accept her distance. You will understand it. Will you hate it? You don't know. From here, from the vantage point of this moment, it seems unbearable. You're pretty certain that you will hate it.
But she's here, now. So close.
You set down your tea and turn out the lights.
You tiptoe down the hall, silently, and ease open the door to her bedroom, silently, silently. You reach out in the dark and feel the curve of her back. You hear the whisper of her breathing, small sweet sighs.
You climb in beside her, and pull her to you. Quietly, quietly.
Always, yes.


text:
Here at MotoSport you'll find all the dirt bike parts to suit a wide variety of bikes and riding styles. We carry a large selection of dirt bike exhausts to give you the option of a race ready system like the Yoshimura RS-4 complete system or the more modest FMF Powercore 4 complete exhaust system for your mini.
Not only do we carry the parts that give your dirt bike a performance boost, we also carry the parts to keep your ride feeling smooth with All Balls bearings. Sometimes the parts that keep your bike riding its best come directly from the manufacturer. At MotoSport you can find the OEM dirt bike parts to complete almost any job, from a basic fender bolt to a complete new top end.
Don't forget the right gear.
After you get your dirt bike set up check out our selection of the hottest dirt bike gear. You can easily find the right gear that matches your style and needs. We stock the same gear the pros wear from head to toe. Brands like One Industries, Fox Racing & more. Riding gear isn't just about looking good. Staying protected is important. Make sure your time spend on the track is as safe as possible with our selection of protective gear. The Alpinestars Bionc Neck Support SB is worn by some of the top dirt bike racers in the world. If your knees have seen better days (or if you just want to keep them healthy) set yourself up with a set of Asterisk Cell Knee Braces for world-class knee protection.
Finding all the parts and gear you need has never been easier – and shipping your parts and gear is free on orders over $79! You've got more choices than ever when it comes to where to buy, and we always aim to give you the best shopping experience in the industry.


text:
GHB Rehab
If you are looking for a luxury rehab centre, we have an amazing centre in Kershopefoot which is easily accessible for anyone looking to recover from addiction in luxury.
Our team of experts (https://www.addictiontreatmentrehab.co.uk/cumbria/kershopefoot) work around the clock to help deliver the best addiction treatment plan possible for you and anyone that needs it.
With a wide variety of treatment program options including luxury amenities and a holistic approach, you can turn your life around and recover from whatever addiction you are suffering with.
For more information on addiction and what we can do to help at our luxury rehab clinic facilities, please fill out our enquiry form and speak to our team of top health experts today.
Our team are accredited rehabilitation experts and some of the best within the industry, we are also regulated by the Care Quality Commission and regularly take advice from The National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA).
Our facility has received a large amount of five star reviews for our services and work ethic.
You can trust our treatment plans, medication and therapists as we are some of the very best therapists the world has to offer.
The average price you will be expecting to pay is anywhere between £10,000-£100,000 for a few weeks to a month long stay in one of our luxury rehabs and centre.
The pricing of luxury rehabs in Kershopefoot can vary depending on a lot of factors.
You can find out more about costs here: https://www.addictiontreatmentrehab.co.uk/cost/cumbria/kershopefoot
As this is one of our luxury rehabs and facilities you would expect state-of-the-art facilities but also an increase in price as this is our most expensive option.
Some of the features you could expect to find in one of our luxury treatment destinations are:
Spa facilities
Complimentary spa treatments
A dedicated gym
Exercise classes
Premier executive suites
The very best alcohol and drug use treatment plan available
The price will also change depending on the place you would like to stay, the time of year you would like to start your rehab process and also the length of your stay.
If you want an up-to-date and accurate price on how much money it will cost to stay at one of our luxury rehabs and facilities, be sure to reach out today so we can help you get your life back on track.
We can't stress enough the benefits and features that we offer at our luxury drug rehabs and treatment destinations.
Below you will see some of our benefits:
Complete tailor made treatment plans
Little to no waiting list
Holistic rehabilitation
Tailored plans based on your underlying issues
Top class amenities during your recovery
Individual assessments to find your underlying causes
Comfortable treatment
Healthy and nutritious meals
A wide variety of different treatment plans which can be catered to your wants and needs
We curated this list from a large variety of positive feedback from our previous clients, we can promise you that our luxury rehab facilities in Kershopefoot and support is like no other.
We offer a wide variety of treatment options and different luxury addiction rehabs to our clients.
Listed below you will see some of the various types of luxury rehabs and treatment therapies available:
Our private treatment program for drug and alcohol addiction helps doctors to treat those who are suffering from substance abuse disorders and we have found that this treatment program can be very beneficial.
Our aim is to support every client and make your rehab journey as social and comforting as possible.
We don't want any of our clients to feel alone in their recovery journey.
You can reach out to us and we can help you cope very discreetly with your addiction without any of your friends or family having to know.
We also offer luxury mental health services in our mental health clinic.
Our luxury mental health clinic takes a more holistic approach and offers dual diagnosis treatment.
Some of the activities you would expect to find are yoga, brain detox, individual therapy and a calm and soothing environment.
Our Compulsive Behaviour Treatment centres in Kershopefoot work with addictions and disorders such as gambling addiction, sex addiction, porn addiction, eating disorders, anxiety disorders, and many more.
Here at our rehab centres your physical, emotional and mental health, is the most important thing and we want to assist you in getting the help you need.
A luxury rehab center is somewhere that you can go to escape your addiction. Luxury rehabs allow you to recover in a safe space aiding you on your drug and alcohol recovery journey.
Luxury rehab is in a much more comfortable setting, which usually makes clients more at ease.
There are a wide variety of different treatments offered in one of our world's top luxury rehab centres.
One of our more popular treatment options is group therapy, a practice which is useful for people with similar underlying health issues who can come together and see that they are not alone.
If you are struggling with stress, depression, alcohol or drug addiction or any kind of trauma, it can all be fought head-on with our luxury rehab treatment programmes.
Be sure to get in touch for more information.
Over the years, private rehab has become very popular with celebrities, this is due to them wanting to keep their lives of addiction and recovery away from the media and public eye.
We have found through decades of experience that clients often feel ashamed about drugs and alcohol and checking themselves into detox or rehab.
This shouldn't be the case at all.
Our aim is to offer our clients complete privacy while they undergo their rehabilitation therapy treatment program in Kershopefoot.
If you require a cheaper alternative, please have a look at this page: https://www.addictiontreatmentrehab.co.uk/cost/cheap-rehab/cumbria/kershopefoot
Luxury rehab is an excellent service and something we would always recommend if you have the budget. If this sounds like something you need, be sure to reach out!
We will give you the option of complete privacy or help with others, we want to make the experience as easy and carefree as possible.
Get in contact with us today and let us help you on your road to lasting recovery in Kershopefoot.
We cover Kershopefoot (Cumbria)


text:
Do you want to have simple "web" answer to questions like these? If your answer is yes, continue reading. It is now surprisingly easy to get your own map homepage.
As a registered user you will get for free:
Moreover, all the maps users create are accessible in regional context of our unique regional catalog.
Show the world the place where you live. The registration is related to the populated places: choose from over 2 millions locations over the world the place that is nearest to you. The following form is dedicated for users who want to register at Bab Tajura' in Tripoli (Tarabulus), Libya. If you want to register at different place, first navigate to the page related to it, then follow register link provided there, please.
Important: it is isn't possible to change your nickname after you submit registration form. However, you can edit all other details any time in the future.
Maplandia.com is not sponsored by or affiliated with Google.


text:
GM fined US$35M for botched ignition switch recall
by Joan Lowy and Tom Kirschner, The Associated Press
The deal announced Friday also includes more oversight and a commitment to faster recalls
WASHINGTON—U.S. safety regulators have fined General Motors $35 million for delays in recalling small cars with faulty ignition switches that are linked to at least 13 deaths.
It's the maximum penalty that the government can impose and the first time an automaker has been fined that much. But the amount is less than a day's revenue for the automaker, based on the $37.4 billion it took in during the first quarter.
As part of an agreement announced Friday by the Transportation Department and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, GM also has agreed to government oversight on safety issues, and to report safety problems much faster than in the past.
NHTSA has been investigating GM's delayed recall of older small cars with defective ignition switches. GM has acknowledged knowing about the problem for at least a decade, but it didn't start recalling the cars until February of this year.
The company says at least 13 people have died in crashes linked to the problem, but trial lawyers suing the company say the death toll is at least 53.
"Today's announcement puts all manufacturers on notice that they will be held accountable if they fail to quickly report and address safety-related defects," said Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx said in a statement.
The $35 million penalty was doubled from last year. But Foxx still urged Congress to pass legislation that would raise the fine to $300 million.
Automakers are required to report safety defects within five days of discovering them.
Ignition switches on Chevrolet Cobalts and Saturn Ions can slip out of the "run" position and shut off the engine. That cuts off the power steering and brakes, potentially causing drivers to lose control. It also disables the car's air bags.
Under the agreement, GM will have to make "significant and wide-ranging internal changes" to its safety review process, the government said. The company also has to pay added penalties for failing to meet NHTSA's deadline to answer questions about the ignition switches.
NHTSA began fining GM $7,000 per day in early April after it missed the deadline.
In a separate statement announcing the agreement, GM CEO Mary Barra said, "GM's ultimate goal is to create an exemplary process and produce the safest cars for our customers – they deserve no less."
In addition to NHTSA, two congressional committees and the Justice Department also are investigating GM. The Justice Department could bring a much larger penalty and possible criminal charges. Earlier this year it made Toyota pay $1.2 billion for concealing unintended acceleration problems from NHTSA.


text:
Just a month after winning a national title on the rink, Alexandria native Ashley Wagner brought home a gold medal at the Four Continents Figure Skating Championship.
Wagner, 20, cruised to the podium Saturday night after putting together the strongest free skate performance of her young career in Colorado Springs, Colo. Judges gave the flawless performance a 128.34-point score, setting the stage for Wagner's first international title.
It also marked the first time Wagner has outskated Japan's Mao Asada, who took the silver medal in the 2010 Winter Olympics.
Wagner, who came out on top at the U.S. Figure Skating Championships on January 28, heads to the world championships in March.