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Wednesday, August 3, 2011
Defense Lawyers for Jesus
31 comments:
- Reginald Selkirk said...
Amen. When Craig presents mathematical or scientific arguments in his defense of the Kalam cosmological argument, it may appear sophisticated to those without the specialized knowledge to evaluate his presentation. But to those with a thorough familiarity with the relevant subject matter, it is clear that Craig and his ilk present a very selective, distorted view in order to make their case.
For example, if one had a knowledge of current cosmology that was both broad and deep, one might notice the shortcomings in the presentations of Craig et al which are pointed out in this video: Against the Kalam Cosmological Argument
Likewise, if one has a thorough knowledge of mathematics, Craig's pronouncements on infinities and probabilities will be seen not to make the grade. - August 3, 2011 at 6:23 AM
- JSA said...
Seems that Craig is channeling Plantinga's famous lecture on the topic.
I think you would have made your case much more effectively by simply letting Craig's confession of lack of objectivity speak for itself. I mean, he freely admits that he's not objective.
By tacking on your unrelated pastiche of tired and cliched arguments for atheism, you sort of distract from the main point of the post (Craig's lack of objectivity), and come across as an eager prosecution lawyer who is not "evidence driven by and receptive to whatever conclusion is best justified". - August 3, 2011 at 10:12 AM
- Matt McCormick said...
Thanks for the comment and the link JS. There's no argument for atheism here. I think you're missing the point of my comments. There is a deep internal problem to adopting a circular and self-sustaining position of this sort, that's all. Atheists can be just as guilty of the inversion as anyone else. But few people are as candid about it as Craig or Wolterstorff.
- August 3, 2011 at 10:46 AM
- JSA said...
OK, I might have misunderstood you. I was reacting largely to this part:
"With God beliefs, the problem is much more pronounced. People often acquire their religious beliefs when they are young and receptive to supernatural thinking. Some people are among the part of the population with strong or hyper-religious tendencies. The beliefs hold deep emotional, social, and psychological appeal. For many people, the promise of eternal life hangs in the balance. To make matters more difficult, there is a growing scientific consensus that evolution has wired us to be religious. Religious beliefs are at the center of a perfect storm of neurobiological, evolutionary, emotional, social, and psychological forces that make them some of the hardest matters in our lives for us to reason clearly about."
If you're saying that all of these things cut both ways, that they muddy the waters for people on both sides of the issue, then I apologize. It sure sounded to me like you were saying, "Theists are especially susceptible to bias because of all of these factors".
All 5 or 6 of the things you listed are pet peeves of mine, because both sides throw them out as proof, but neither side seems interested in actually doing the hard work of collecting empirical evidence.
For example, when faced with empirical evidence of an innate propensity to believe, Plantinga immediately concludes "sensus divinitatus!", while others claim that it's proof that theism is a cognitive defect. Seriously? Why don't people just calm down and do some actual research, run some models, and get a clearer picture of how these things work?
Or take belief in the afterlife. The idea that there is a heaven will provide deep emotional appeal for accepting Christianity, but convincing oneself that there is no hell will provide deep emotional appeal for rejecting Christianity. Both sides claim that the other side is allowing desire to trump reason. Again, it's a tragedy, because it would be easy enough to fill in the holes in our empirical knowledge. Why is nobody filling in the empirical holes? Maybe it's because both sides have already made up their minds and don't care whether the data support their conclusions.
Or how about upbringing? The empirical data about upbringing's effect on belief would be easy to collect, but I don't think I've ever seen a dispassionate analysis from the fanboys on either side of the issue. The studies I've seen seem to indicate that culture and genetics are more important than parental upbringing (and the idea that the imprint of belief or skepticism is due to youthful "gullibility" is highly suspect). But they barely scratch the surface. Let's compare people raised in an official atheist culture like Russia or China with people raised in a strong culture of belief like Saudi Arabia.
As far as I'm concerned, these are all wide open questions that aren't even close to being compelling for either side. And there is no need for speculation -- we could easily be augmenting our empirical knowledge if we wanted to. - August 3, 2011 at 11:34 AM
- Matt DeStefano said...
Hey JS, I have a question about two of the issues you brought up. I certainly agree that polarization is rampant and it often stifles progress, but I'm also curious as to how one would go about furthering empirical research in these regards.
For example, when faced with empirical evidence of an innate propensity to believe, Plantinga immediately concludes "sensus divinitatus!", while others claim that it's proof that theism is a cognitive defect. Seriously? Why don't people just calm down and do some actual research, run some models, and get a clearer picture of how these things work?
Even if we had a perfect picture of how religious belief has evolved in the brain, what would that mean for either side? I would imagine Platinga would still offer up the fact that God engineered us for belief, while others like Dennett would still paint it as a hallucinatory side effect of human evolution. I'm skeptical that a complete picture would move the issue in any direction.
Or take belief in the afterlife. The idea that there is a heaven will provide deep emotional appeal for accepting Christianity, but convincing oneself that there is no hell will provide deep emotional appeal for rejecting Christianity. Both sides claim that the other side is allowing desire to trump reason. Again, it's a tragedy, because it would be easy enough to fill in the holes in our empirical knowledge. Why is nobody filling in the empirical holes? Maybe it's because both sides have already made up their minds and don't care whether the data support their conclusions.
I'm unsure as to what type of data Christians could use to support the existence of Heaven, or if there would be any data that would definitively disprove the Heaven thesis. If it is a physical place, we certainly have not found it, and especially have seen no evidence for people leaving Earth to Heaven. If it's spiritual, I don't think that science will offer anything in the way of tangible evidence for a spiritual residence. - August 3, 2011 at 11:54 AM
- Matt McCormick said...
That's a much more thoughtful and constructive arg, JS. And much of it I can get behind. Despite their slogans and mantras, I don't see that atheists as a whole are more typically objective and thoughtful about the God question. When I speak to those groups I end up explaining the fallacies in atheist args and presenting more charitable theistic args than they have considered.
One difference for the theist is that evolution does not appear to have built us to disbelieve. So the believer has his more of his neurobiology to worry about. Our brains work against our objectivity. - August 3, 2011 at 12:01 PM
- Keith Rozumalski said...
Can you honestly say that you are truly open to the possibility that God exists? Do you have any presuppositional beliefs, such as naturalistic materialism, that makes the possibility of God's existence untenable? Do you think that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are truly open to the possibility that God exists? When you are "Proving the Negative" aren't you essentially just doing what William Lane Craig does, but in the negative form? Just as there are some theists that want God to exist, aren't there some atheists, such as Thomas Nagel, who do not want God to exist? Is it even possible to be truly free from emotions and presupositional beliefs when it comes to evaluating God's existence?
I think you are making a straw man out of what Craig said. Craig believes that the various arguments for God's existence, taken together, show that God's existence is probable. He knows that an absolute proof of God's existence is not possible, given our current background knowledge, but he believes that there are arguments that can persuade some rational people to believe that God's existence is likely. However, he believes the Holy Spirit testifies to believers that God's existence is true. This is more of a sense that God exists. This sense that God exists and is interacting with believers is taken on faith. - August 3, 2011 at 2:23 PM
- Keith Rozumalski said...
This is more of a side issue, but your example of equating the defense of the existence of unicorns with the defense of the existence of God is a false analogy because we can use the Santa Principle to determine that unicorns don't exist on the earth. The second is that unicorns are not necessary beings while God is.
The Santa Principle says that a person is justified in believing that X does not exist if all of these conditions are met:
1. the area where evidence would appear, if there were any, has been comprehensively examined, and
2. all of the available evidence that X exists is inadequate, and
3. X is the sort of entity that, if X exists, then it would show.
So, using premises one and two we can say that unicorns don't exist on earth because we have never seen any evidence of them. Since unicorns are said to be physical beings we should have found some evidence of them by now. Even if you assume that they are hiding in some very remote region then we should have at least found a unicorn skull that verify their existence. However, we haven't found any evidence of them so we can say with near certainty that unicorns do not exist on earth. Notice, however, that the Santa Principle says that the, "Area where evidence would appear, if there were any, has been comprehensively examined," so we can't say that we have searched the entire universe for unicorns. It could be possible that a planet 1,000 light years away has unicorns running around on it. Now, when we turn to using the principle to test whether God exists there are problems. God is said to be an immaterial being who does not reside on the earth. Since we currently do not have the ability to perceive immaterial beings we can't say that the area where God exists has been comprehensively examined. God could very well exist in heaven, but we simply do not have the capacity to see him.
The second difference between unicorns and God is that the existence of unicorns is not necessary while the existence of everything is dependent on God. Unicorns, if they exist, would just be like lions, bears or humans in that nothing is dependent on their existence, so unicorns could conceivably exist or not exist. If unicorns didn't exist then the universe and the earth would still exist. However, God is said to be an immaterial, eternal omnipotent being who must exist if the universe and everything in it is to exist. God is the uncaused cause that formed the universe and sustains it. Without God noting would exist. If unicorns were to exist then they would be dependent on God too. They would need to live in a universe on a planet, things that would not exist if God did not create and sustain them. As a material, biological beings unicorns would also be ultimately be dependent on God. Unicorns would be dependent on organs to survive and those organs would be dependent on cells and those cells would be dependent on elements and those elements which would be dependent atoms and so on, but we would get to point where subatomic particles would need to be dependent on something to exist. If there is something in the chain of being that is dependent on something that doesn't exist then that thing couldn't exist and then that means that everything in the chain of being that depends on that thing wouldn't exist either. This means that all material and beings are dependent on God who is the uncaused cause--an agent of pure act. - August 3, 2011 at 2:31 PM
- JSA said...
"Even if we had a perfect picture of how religious belief has evolved in the brain, what would that mean for either side? I would imagine Platinga would still offer up the fact that God engineered us for belief, while others like Dennett would still paint it as a hallucinatory side effect of human evolution."
At a minimum, I think it would force a major change in how Christians defend belief. It would shift the argument to a more fruitful place, IMO. For example, the explanatory role of "revelation" would be very different if we could point to certain belief features as being inevitable results of an evolutionary process.
I compare it to the way that we had a lot of open questions about evolutionary biology and altruism. And then when started using computational tools to model things, informed by game theory, it changed the whole conversation.
Some interesting questions off the top of my head:
1) We're the only species we know who have religion. How might religion vary across species (and how might it stay the same)? If we kill off all of the other animals, we'll be the only species with legs, too. But that doesn't mean that legs are the only or best form of locomotion, or that our form of religion is the only one that might arise through an evolutionary process. Knowing which parts of the human experience of religion are essential cross-species and which are arbitrary (maybe all of it?) would change the conversation.
2) Religion seems to sit on top of intentionality. We can't explain intentionality evolutionarily, except by pointing out that it's a useful "stance" (Dennett's view). If we had a really strong story from natural selection to intentionality to religion, it could make a case for science being the ultimate religion. If, instead, we have to look at religion as just a stance on top of a stance, then we have to evaluate it separately.
3) Tons of interesting research could be done about "hyperactive agency detection". Autism, invisible friends, animism, etc.
"I'm unsure as to what type of data Christians could use to support the existence of Heaven"
By empirical evidence, I mean evidence to support the claim that Christians or atheists are simply believing what they want to believe. It wouldn't be difficult to test these claims and form a much more nuanced picture. Lots of people reject Christianity because Christian beliefs are unappealing. And lots of people adopt atheism even though they find Christian beliefs more appealing. Everyone (atheist and Christian alike) brags about how they were compelled by the truth to believe even though it was contrary to their nature. I don't believe any of them, and I want hard empirical evidence.
There is also the fascinating question of what people actually believe versus what they profess to believe. It's trickier, but not impossible, to measure this empirically. Until we have solid empirical evidence, both sides just claim the high ground. - August 3, 2011 at 2:45 PM
- Matt McCormick said...
Thanks Keith. You realize that I wrote up and explained the version of the Santa principle that you are lecturing me with, right? And you realize that you're missing the point about Craig and Wolterstorff completely, right?
- August 3, 2011 at 2:48 PM
- JSA said...
"One difference for the theist is that evolution does not appear to have built us to disbelieve. So the believer has his more of his neurobiology to worry about. Our brains work against our objectivity."
I think that's too broad a claim. Evolution has wired our brains to be objective and disbelieve a great many things (otherwise, we'd be wiped out), but credulous about other things. Both atheism and theism embrace certain innate human predispositions, while suppressing others in the name of "higher truth". And a great many propositions of modern theism work strongly against what people are predisposed to believe. It's easy to see how a "hyperactive agency detection" module could lead to the totemistic religions and belief in witches and ghosts -- but human DNA hasn't really evolved since then, and modern theism explicitly rejects these things. If anything, modern monotheism looks like something created by a priest with Aspergers who is trying to rid his race of innate superstition. It doesn't really look like something that would spontaneously emerge from our evolved nature.
Anyway, if we're trying to make a case that atheists are uniquely overcoming human predispositions "in the service of truth", the strongest case would be in overcoming teleological thinking. Teleological thinking is a deep-seated human impulse that is often wrong, and is often very difficult to overcome. Beyond that (which, admittedly, is pretty huge), it's not as clear to me who has the upper hand in overcoming self-delusion. BTW, I think it's completely possible to systematically analyze the question and come to conclusions based on hard data; it just doesn't seem like people care. - August 3, 2011 at 2:49 PM
- Matt McCormick said...
Watch the video Keith and listen carefully to what C says. He is resolved to only use arguments insofar as they can serve Jesus.
- August 3, 2011 at 2:53 PM
- Reginald Selkirk said...
This is more of a side issue, but your example of equating the defense of the existence of unicorns with the defense of the existence of God is a false analogy because we can use the Santa Principle to determine that unicorns don't exist on the earth. The second is that unicorns are not necessary beings while God is.
I'm not sure you've heard all the best arguments for Santa and unicorns. What is your disproof of Santa, that you've searched the entire surface of the Earth and he can't be found? OK then, he lives under the ocean at the North Pole. Visiting all the chimneys in the world would require him to move too fast? Well then, he uses a wormhole so he actually doesn't have to travel far at all. Imagine that for every argument you made against Santa, I was willing to come up with a counter, no matter how preposterous. I could point out one argument which has actually been put forward by a Bigfoot believer: Bigfoot lives in another dimension, and returns there after his forays into our world.
My point is that God proponents have gone further in their evasiveness to disproof than the Santa and unicorn proponents. Daniel Dennett points out that folk gods did not start out with immunity to scientific investigation, they all interacted regularly with the natural world in ways which should be easily detectable. As our scientific understanding and tools have advanced, God has evolved to be ever more distant, and ever more nontestable. Of course, at the same time He becomes ever more irrelevant.
Take this "necessary being" idea. That is a made-up concept to sidestep God around an attempted disproof. There is no reason to believe that God actually exists necessarily. - August 3, 2011 at 3:14 PM
- Explicit Atheist said...
Theological arguments are often appeals to intuition. What is intuitively correct about how the world works is invariably factually false and what is factually true is invariably non-intuitive or counter-intuitive. For example, it is intuitively correct that solids are mostly matter when in fact solids are mostly space. Intuition fails to find the factually true answers so consistently that we are justified in a priori discounting answers based solely on intuition. Theists have a tendency to do the opposite, they place appeals to intuition on par with (or even over) empirical evidence as a method for justifying beliefs about how the world works.
- August 3, 2011 at 5:27 PM
- Truth Seeker said...
A person who knows that Christianity is true on the basis of the witness of the Spirit may also have a sound apologetic which reinforces or confirms for him the Spirit's witness, but it does not serve as the fundamental way in which he knows Christianity to be true. If the arguments of natural theology and Christian evidences are successful, as I claim they are, then Christian belief is also warranted by such arguments and evidences for the person who grasps them, even if that person would still be warranted in their absence. Such a person is doubly warranted in his Christian belief, in the sense that he enjoys two sources of warrant. So evidential arguments on behalf of Christianity are, in my view, sufficient for knowledge of Christianity's truth but they are not necessary for knowledge of Christianity's truth.
Now the question both of you pose concerns the role of defeaters of Christian belief. Properly basic beliefs can be defeasible; that is to say, they can be defeated by other incompatible beliefs which one might come to accept. In such a case, the individual in question must either come up with a defeater for the defeater or else give up some of his beliefs if he is to remain rational. Thus, for example, a Christian who encounters the problem of evil is faced with a potential defeater of his belief in God. Christian apologetics can help to formulate answers, such as the Free Will Defense in response to the problem of evil, in order to defeat the putative defeaters.
But Plantinga also argues that in some cases, the original belief itself may so exceed its alleged defeater in warrant that it becomes an intrinsic defeater of its putative defeater. He gives the example of someone accused of a crime and against whom all the evidence stands, even though that person knows he is innocent. In such a case, that person is not rationally obligated to abandon belief in his own innocence and to accept instead the evidence that he is guilty. The belief that he did not commit the crime intrinsically defeats the defeaters brought against it by the evidence. Plantinga makes the theological application by suggesting that belief in God may similarly intrinsically defeat all the defeaters that might be brought against it.
Plantinga does not to my knowledge clearly commit himself to the view that the witness of the Holy Spirit is an intrinsic defeater-defeater. Such a thesis is independent of the model as presented. But I have argued that the witness of the Spirit is, indeed, an intrinsic defeater of any defeaters brought against it. For it seems to me inconceivable that God would allow any believer to be in a position where he would be rationally obliged to commit apostasy and renounce Christ. It seems to me rather that in such a situation a loving God would intensify the Spirit's witness in such a way that it becomes an intrinsic defeater of the defeaters such a person faces.
Now it might be said, that God would, indeed, not permit a person to fall into circumstances where the rational thing for him to do is to apostatize and turn his back on God, but what God would do is provide sufficient evidence to such an individual so that he is able to defeat through argument and evidence the alleged defeater. I grant that such a view is possible (how could anyone who believes in middle knowledge think differently?). But as I look at the world in which we actually live, such a view strikes me as naïve.
The vast majority of people in the world have neither the time, training, nor resources to develop a full-blown Christian apologetic as the basis of their faith or to defeat the sundry defeaters which they encounter. I have been deeply moved by the plight of Christians as I have traveled abroad and seen the sometimes desperate circumstances in which they find themselves. In Europe, for example, the university - August 4, 2011 at 9:23 AM
- Truth Seeker said...
culture is overwhelmingly secular and even atheistic. I met many theological students when we lived in Germany whose professors had exposed them to nothing but radical biblical criticism and anti-Christian scholarship. These students held on to Christian faith in spite of the evidence. It was far, far worse in Eastern Europe and Russia. I wish I could convey to you the spiritual darkness and oppression that existed behind the Iron Curtain during the days of the Soviet Union. I remember asking one Russian believer, "Have you no resources to help you in your Christian life?" He replied, "Well, there is an encyclopedia of atheism published by the state, and by reading what is attacked there, you can learn something. But that's about all." These bothers and sisters endured horrible oppression and atheistic indoctrination by the Marxist regime and yet did not abandon Christ. As I emphasized in my answer to Question #13, evidence varies from generation to generation and from place to place and is accessible only to those privileged few who have the education, leisure time, and resources to explore it. God has provided a more secure basis for our faith than the shifting sands of evidence and argument, namely, the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Moreover, this conclusion seems in line with New Testament teaching on the witness of the Holy Spirit. While non-believers reject New Testament teaching, Christians should take it seriously. Ponder, then, John's words:
And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. . . . If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son (1 John 5:6-10).
As Christian believers we have the testimony of God living within us, the Holy Spirit, whose testimony exceeds in force all human testimony.
So in answer to your question, Kyle, I think that in fact God will not allow someone to be in a position in which the rational thing for him to do is to reject God and Christ and separate himself from God. Given that God is essentially all-loving, I'm inclined to say that such a thing will not only never happen, but that it is, indeed, impossible. It follows that Christians who have apostatized have done so in defiance of the Holy Spirit's work by quenching or grieving the Spirit, so that what they did was in the end irrational.
Does that imply, Adam, as your sceptic says, that I think "evidence is unimportant when compared with faith?" No, because he's drawing a false contrast, comparing apples with oranges. Faith is not the issue here, but the ground for faith. Must the ground for faith be evidence? That is the question. We've already seen that evidentialism is bankrupt. Many of the things we know are not based on evidence. So why must belief in God be so based? Belief in God and the great truths of the Gospel is not a blind exercise of faith, a groundless leap in the dark. Rather, as Plantinga emphasizes, Christian belief is part of the deliverances of reason, grounded in the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, which is an objective reality mediated to me from God.
What is true is that evidence, as it is defined in these discussions, plays a secondary role compared to the role God Himself plays in warranting Christian belief. Should we, then, ignore strong evidence if it shows that our faith is probably false? Of course not! My work as a philosopher exemplifies the effort to confront objections to Christian belief squarely and to answer them. But most Christians in the world don't have that luxury. For them they may have to hold to their Christian belief even though they lack an answer to the alleged defeater. What I insist on is that, given the witness of the Holy Spirit within them, they are entirely rational in so doing. - August 4, 2011 at 9:23 AM
- Truth Seeker said...
Taken from reasonablefaith.com in an attempt to point out straw men.
- August 4, 2011 at 9:25 AM
- Keith Rozumalski said...
Yes, Matt, thank you for the Santa principle—it's an excellent tool for disproving physical entities, or at least showing that they are unlikely.
I'm sorry if I have misunderstood what you said about Craig. My understanding of what Craig was saying in the video is that if some current evidence contradicts the testimony of the Holy Spirit then given enough time, thought and further evidence then he believes that the evidence would eventually agree with what the spirit says. I know that he said at a recent debate that there could be evidence that would make him question his faith such as a proof that Christ wasn't really resurrected. It is true that he wrote, In Reasonable Faith that, "Philosophy is rightly the handmaid of theology." However, later on he writes, "We know Christianity is true primarily by the self-authenticating witness of God's Spirit. We show Christianity is true by presenting good arguments for its central tenets." How does Craig's belief in the Holy Spirit cause his arguments to be false? Aren't you committing the genetic fallacy when you say that we need to put an asterisk by Craig's arguments because he believes in the testimony of the Holy Spirit? The origin of his belief doesn't affect the force of his arguments. - August 4, 2011 at 10:04 AM
- JSA said...
"Aren't you committing the genetic fallacy when you say that we need to put an asterisk by Craig's arguments because he believes in the testimony of the Holy Spirit? The origin of his belief doesn't affect the force of his arguments."
Of course it does. The fact that he is willfully abandoning objectivity doesn't mean that his conclusion is necessarily wrong, but it justifies a HUGE asterisk next to his arguments.
Try turning it around. I and a small band of cult followers claim to have been privvy to the "internal witness" of the sacred worm orobouros. This worm tells us that we are living inside a simulation of a weapon system. The purpose of the simulation is to test various initial properties (laws of the universe) within certain constraints, to see which configuration leads to maximum entropy the quickest. Any apparent sign of negentropy (life, sentience, etc.) turns out to just be even more efficient ways of generating entropy -- life accelerates death. To the extent that we recognize death, destruction, and ultimate nothingness as the purpose of existence, we will be serving the goals of the simulation. As we understand more about physics, the evidence tends to support the conclusion that the laws of the universe are optimized to generate entropy. Any life-affirming religions that appear are clearly contrary to physics and work against the purposes of the simulation.
Now, suppose that you offer me evidence against this position. I then retort, "I refuse to be persuaded. The worm orobouros would not lead me wrong. I am confident that the evidence will eventually prove me right. You cannot understand, because the worm has not spoken to you".
Do you suppose that an asterisk would be justified? - August 4, 2011 at 10:42 AM
- Keith Rozumalski said...
What is your disproof of Santa, that you've searched the entire surface of the Earth and he can't be found? OK then, he lives under the ocean at the North Pole. Visiting all the chimneys in the world would require him to move too fast? Well then, he uses a wormhole so he actually doesn't have to travel far at all. Imagine that for every argument you made against Santa, I was willing to come up with a counter, no matter how preposterous. I could point out one argument which has actually been put forward by a Bigfoot believer: Bigfoot lives in another dimension, and returns there after his forays into our world.
Reginald Selkirk, my main disproof of Santa is that I know that the presents under the tree at Christmas are put there by parents and not Santa. If Santa could live in the Ocean, and he wasn't detected by the USS Nautilus back in 1958, then we could use sonar to detect his vessel, or do a visual search using subs. Our current knowledge of wormholes indicates that an entity the size of Santa would not fit in a wormhole, so your wormhole explanation is implausible.
In regards to your Bigfoot example, how would a hairy ape-like creature travel to another dimension? Besides time traveling in the fourth dimension, which seems incredibly implausible for a creature like Bigfoot as the challenges are immense, the fifth through the 11th dimensions are merely theoretical. The problem with all of the defenses of these material beings is that they are bound by physical laws. As material entities they are just as subject to entropy and the other laws of physics as you and I.
Your claim that the idea of a necessary being is made-up is surprising since you and I are living in a universe in motion. What causes and sustains the universe/multiverse if there is no uncaused cause or unmoved mover? The fact that we are living in a universe/multiverse (assuming a multiverse exists) that is contingent on something else is proof that a necessary being exists. Without God the universe/multiverse and everything in it would cease to exist. - August 4, 2011 at 11:41 AM
- Keith Rozumalski said...
Now, suppose that you offer me evidence against this position. I then retort, "I refuse to be persuaded. The worm orobouros would not lead me wrong. I am confident that the evidence will eventually prove me right. You cannot understand, because the worm has not spoken to you".
Do you suppose that an asterisk would be justified?
JS Allen, I suppose our natural tendency is to be wary of outlandish claims such as this, but it is not rational to simply dismiss someone's arguments out-of-hand because of their background or beliefs. It doesn't matter if someone is an atheist, agnostic, Christian, goat worshiper or Orobourosist, we still must evaluate their arguments as objectively as possible. If the Orobourosist said trust me because the worm said so I wouldn't trust them, but if the Orobourosist presented some good evidence and sound arguments then as a rational person I would listen and evaluate their arguments, and perhaps be persuaded by them. - August 4, 2011 at 11:59 AM
- Reginald Selkirk said...
Reginald Selkirk, my main disproof of Santa is that I know that the presents under the tree at Christmas are put there by parents and not Santa...
Remember, the goal of this exercise is to never give up, no matter how preposterous the position gets. So here are some counters:
1) The presents are really from Santa, but he let your parents pretend to have supplied them in order to enhance their image in your eyes.
2) YOUR parents bought YOUR presents, but that doesn't necessarily apply to all the other children.
If Santa could live in the Ocean, and he wasn't detected by the USS Nautilus back in 1958, then we could use sonar to detect his vessel, or do a visual search using subs.
I didn't say anything about a vessel, he lives in a cave under the sea floor. The entrance is very well camouflaged. If any subs tried searching, they would certainly suffer electronic failures. Santa's transit sub wasn't present at the time, or it doesn't show up well on sonar due its being reindeer-powered, or he uses stealth technology. Or Santa, as is well-known, has excellent intelligence gathering systems, and would know when search subs were around, during which time he would temporariliy move to his alternate undisclosed location.
And so on. To repeat, there need not be any evidence that such a state is actually true, the goal is simply to dodge the counter-arguments by whatever means necessary.
In regards to your Bigfoot example, how would a hairy ape-like creature travel to another dimension?
As I thought I pointed out, the 'Bigfoot is from another dimension' is not my own, that is an actual argument supplied by a Bigfoot proponent (which I am not).
Lapseritis said conventional Bigfoot investigators have not found the creature because they are limited in their belief that Bigfoot is "simply a relic hominid that never became extinct." "That really may be true," Lapseritis said in a telephone interview. "But in addition to that, (Bigfoot) may literally be, as I've discovered, a paraphysical, interdimensional native people that have told me and other people telepathically that they were brought here millions of years ago by their friends, the star people."
Strange indeed, but is it stranger than the claims put forward to defend God from disproof? In the case of God, we have such bizarre claims as that God is both a temporal and atemporal being (Craig). - August 4, 2011 at 1:11 PM
Suspend all questions and doubts, no matter how legitimate, until you can devise a way to engineer or rationalize them into conformity with the prior belief.
That's a pretty bad misrepresentation. - August 6, 2011 at 7:31 PM
- The Atheist Missionary said...
Keith, Matt is not asserting a strawman. Craig may be bright but I wouldn't let him clean my basement: http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2010/10/why-i-wouldnt-let-william-lane-craig.html
Matt also makes an excellent point when he observes that atheists can also fall victim to cognitive biases. I would be the first to admit that I am biased against acceptance of the miracles described in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc. It is precisely because of this bias that I spend far more time studying apologetic arguments than arguments knocking them down. - August 7, 2011 at 2:33 PM
- Respectful Atheist said...
This is an excellent post Matt, spot on. Many atheists are baffled by William Lane Craig (ie. how can he not see the weaknesses in his arguments?) but I think what you have described here is THE key to getting inside his head.
- August 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM
- The Atheist Missionary said...
For those who would enjoy watching Craig exposed for the snake oil salesman that he is, please check out his forthcoming debate with English philosopher Stephen Law on October 17,2011. The event is being hosted by Premier Christian Radio's Unbelievable! program and the question being debated is the existence of God. Tickets for the event (to be held at Westminster Hall in London) are available through Premier Christian Radio's website.
- August 17, 2011 at 6:46 PM
its nice to read a useful article for beginner like me. Some of points from this article are very helpful for me as I haven't considered them yet. I would like to say thank you for sharing this cool article. Bookmarked and sharing for friends.
Audi All Road Quattro Turbocharger - August 18, 2011 at 3:37 AM
- Sweet Lily said...
Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Every moment, thank God. - August 25, 2011 at 12:58 AM
- Judy Weismonger said...
I find that christians are nothing more than skilled liars.
- September 13, 2011 at 11:23 AM
- K said...
"Can you honestly say that you are truly open to the possibility that God exists?"
I've changed my mind on things before, and I can do it again. The problem I've found is that there's a really low standard for what constitutes a case for God, and by rejecting that I'm accused of being close-minded. - September 14, 2011 at 3:59 AM
- Fresh Garden said...
He who loses money loses much;
he who loses friends loses much more;
he who loses faith loses all. - September 15, 2011 at 1:46 AM


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Sunday, May 31, 2009
Dead Tech: Zipatone
The dot pattern came in a variety of gray-tone percentages and in different sizes of dots, measured as lines per inch. The one shown here was a very sophisticated gradated tone.
The way you used it was to place it over your drawing on a light table, cut out the shape with a very sharp knife, carefully lift it, and place it over the drawing. For a very complicated shape, you could place a larger piece over the drawing and cut away what you didn't want.
There were a lot of pitfalls to those steps: cutting through the drawing, getting the stuff to fold up on itself, getting a speck of junk behind it, where it attracted a noticeable shadow. My memories of the stuff aren't that happy and glowing.
Previous Dead Tech post on waxers.
35 comments:
- Patrick Dizon said...
I think Manga artists still use that or something similar.
- May 31, 2009 at 8:22 AM
- Judith Hunt said...
Your Dead Tech posts are interesting in that they cover material no artist/graphic designer in countries with access to computers will ever use/ever know the frustration of using.
How often and how much of this material did you use yourself and where? - May 31, 2009 at 9:09 AM
- Andrew said...
There are still some places that carry zipatone for some reason or another. I remember a local art store back in Florida had a small shelf space reserved for the stuff.
It was priced though I think at a crazy price of $13.00-$16.00 though, which made me wonder if it was far cheaper way back when. - May 31, 2009 at 9:13 AM
- James Gurney said...
Judith, I grew up in northern California, and started out as a freelancer doing lettering, comics, and illustration in high school (mid-1970s). I also worked in paste-up at small advertising agencies and newspapers before I headed off to college. For all of those jobs, I did a lot of pen and ink work for print.
- May 31, 2009 at 9:14 AM
- jeff jordan said...
What I remember most about this stuff was finding a bag of partially used sheets several years after I had stopped doing commercial graphics. Early 80s I think. Stuck together, tiny parts of a page you'd never be able to find a way to use, but you never knew if it might come in handy. Dead or hardened adhesive, on and on.
A MESS, in other words. Good to move on....... - May 31, 2009 at 11:23 AM
- Jean Spitzer said...
Very optimistic name: zipatone. From your description, sounds like much skill is necessary to use the stuff well.
- May 31, 2009 at 11:30 AM
- Madeline Carol Matz said...
Indeed, manga has resurrected the devilish stuff. I was surprised to see it reappear a bit ago: letraset at dickblick
- May 31, 2009 at 12:25 PM
- Brine Blank said...
Still know some silk screeners that use the stuff...
Great posts on the subject...I came in at the transition period on some of these things in college...which actually makes me a bit grateful...doing things the old way helped hone my skills and be able to envision things better...even going through the delicate process of rubylithe only to find out I was so focused I did all my cutting on the wrong side...I relate that to the way sometimes people screw things up on the computer...so focused on the minutia that you overlook the basic baby steps and end up with major disasters...but you only do it once or twice...kind of like sticking a key in an outlet... - May 31, 2009 at 12:29 PM
- Erik Bongers said...
I used it too a couple of times.
But abandonned it quickly for the reasons you mentioned.
And also, the result never really looked pleasing. - May 31, 2009 at 12:32 PM
- Andrew said...
Incidentally, if anyone still pines for the look that zipatone can give, it's quite possible to do it up in photoshop authentically.
Basically, make a new document whatever size you'd like in grayscale, make it the gradation, pattern, or flat color you'd like, then switch Image Modes to bitmap. I believe as you switch to bitmap, you select halftone from the choices, and it creates the dot-tone look that zipatone has.
From there, it's a matter of saving the document as is, then when you have your artwork ready for toning, just drag and drop the stuff onto your art, and erase what you don't need. - May 31, 2009 at 1:38 PM
- Nina Johansson said...
Deleter is one brand that started making these screens again, for Manga artists. I think they are rather complicated to use, but they do give a cool effect to ink drawings.
- May 31, 2009 at 2:49 PM
- Carolyn A. Pappas said...
I have been interested in primitive techniques lately and love inking. I'm glad the manga people have kept it in production because I think I might just try it...
- May 31, 2009 at 4:58 PM
- David Still said...
Could you manipulate the dots somehow? Scrape off a few where you wanted a slightly lighter tone? I imagine it would be a bit limiting otherwise, if you wanted to make something a bit more complex, where the gradation follows the form...
- May 31, 2009 at 5:00 PM
- kev ferrara said...
Even though I dislike the stuff, it does give a very good mechanical-ness to play against the organic-ness of normal ink work. But if the work isn't organic and flowing, zipatone's mechanical-ness can really clash with it.
The more organic zipatone patterns seemed to be cheating, to me. And didn't actually save any time because the patterns were just as easy to draw as cut and paste on.
P.S. Roy Lichtenstein. - May 31, 2009 at 5:31 PM
- Smurfswacker said...
I was another one who used this "primitive" technique. Except for expensive and hard-to-find Craftint paper, Zip was about the only cheap way to put a gray tone onto line art. You could make a rubylith overlay and specify a percentage for the printer to add to the negative, but that cost extra and syndicates, comics publishers etc. didn't want to pay for it.
Personally I liked Zipatone...just the grays, not the odd patterns. It added extra "zip" (har har) to b&w comics like the Undergrounds. If you were careful it could look good under comic book color, too. Wallace Wood's and Al Williamson's work are the best examples. To answer David Still's question, Certain brands of shading film (e.g. Letratone) were top-printed. You could scrape the dots away with an X-acto knife. It was possible to soften a tone's edge this way by "hatching" with the blade. However it was easy to press too hard and rip the film. I found Zip was best for separating levels in a drawing: a light gray over a complicated background, for instance, to make the foreground pop.
The biggest problem with Zip (as with Prestype) was deadline night when you ran out of 20% gray with an inch left to cover. Then you had to use scraps to fill the area. Trying to line up the dots was a bitch. - May 31, 2009 at 7:03 PM
I think there are quite a few number of manga artists who still use this stuff.
It looks like a nightmare to me. Thank god for Photoshop. - May 31, 2009 at 7:40 PM
- Steven K said...
I did one project with zipatone and swore I'd retire before I ever used it again.
On the other hand, there were comics artists list Marchall Rogers, Wally Wood, and Terry Austin who worked wonders with that stuff.
Roy Crane, of course, was famous for his use of Craftint paper on "Buzz Sawyer" to effectively create monochrome paintings in dot patterns that printed beautifully at the time but have since been a nightmare to reprint. - May 31, 2009 at 11:56 PM
- inkdestroyedmybrush said...
Used the stuff for years, and, shockingly, still have some here in my studio! Yes, i declined to actually throw the remnants out, even though i should have years ago.
I actually really like the look of the stuff when used properly. gave you the option to add some tints and techniques that you couldn't get otherwise, and you knew that it would actually reproduce. - June 1, 2009 at 12:03 AM
- James Gurney said...
J Stremikis emailed me with a fascinating blog comment that he had trouble posting for some technical reason, but here it is:
"Zipatone was used by the ton by tv meteorologists in the late 70's/early 80's - for cloud shapes, radar mapping, and for temperature band mapping. The shapes were applied to base maps - preparation took many hours prior to the broadcast. And, these finished maps were very difficult to update.
Typically, a map would be enlarged about 20 times bigger than the original 8 x 10 in. map, and placed behind the weathercaster, on-air. So, mistakes and moire patterns (overlapping Zipatone fields) were highly exaggerated. Moire patterns often made a field "crawl" when
Zipatone (and tape) was also used by the ton in weather graphics prepared for print - for publishing research articles (such as in Monthly Weather Review), or for graduate theses. The Moire patterns could result in enormous headaches - and "redo's" - in order to reach MWR editorial print standards.
It seemed the weather-graphics industry supported the Zipatone Corp., at least prior to computerized weather graphics coming on the scene in (in early 1979).
I remember the sheets surface took Rapidograph inks very very well. It was a real pleasure to work with.
I also remember that this Zipatone stuff was obsoleted in about 5 years.
It's easy to understand why Manga artists are keeping this stuff alive - I'd expect comics and graphic-novel folks are, too.
Photoshop still leaves a lot to be desired. Much as difference between Painter and real watercolors. Or sketching on a computer screen with a Wacom tablet, vs. using real pens or pencils."
Thanks, J. Stremikis! - June 1, 2009 at 7:53 AM
- David Still said...
Wow, as a son of the Digital Age, it's easy to forget that everything really had to be made by hand before, even weather maps! Long live craftsmanship!
- June 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM
- Unknown said...
I've only used this once, but I really enjoyed it. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on some. I know that things can be done on Photoshop. I still enjoy the art making process better when I can do things by hand.
- June 1, 2009 at 4:36 PM
- Random York said...
I have always loved the look of this stuff in comics, I love the way it looks in the old cyberpunk manga of the '80s too.
- June 4, 2009 at 11:02 AM
- Unknown said...
Yep. Manga artists use this quite frequently, although it should be noted that most of the professionals have at least a small staff of assistants who are the ones who have to deal with all the painstaking process that the screen tones entail.
However, there are also a number of manga-making programs specifically designed to create manga pages, which have a large bank of screen tones installed. You can, of course, also download digital tones for use in Photoshop, since a lot of the specialty programs aren't sold outside Japan.
It's definitely become part of the trademark look of manga, whether it's done digitally or in the old-fashioned way. Greyscale comics might save on printing costs, but they've also certainly become an art form of their own, sometimes even beating out the fully colored comics we get here in the US, I think. - June 5, 2009 at 1:45 AM
- Paul said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- June 7, 2009 at 1:26 AM
- Paul said...
I learned how to use tone in Japan. Their speciality manga tones were much easier to scrape with the back of a knife than the US brands. You could get great results layering various types over a pen and ink drawing.
Manga Studio ( http://my.smithmicro.com/win/mangaex/index.html ) offers a huge variety of tones in an electronic format.
(Reposted with better link) - June 7, 2009 at 1:29 AM
- treplovski said...
I love the stuff, I've probably used a cubic acre of it in my lifetime and would love to get my hands on some more. As a screenprint designer, I used it in the darkroom, sandwiched between film negatives to create eye-bending Moscoso-like effects.
Rick Griffin used to sand layers of Zipatone to create a feathered look.
The first time I truly felt my age was when I was showing a young colleague some late 1970s work by William Stout. He said, "WOW, is that all done on the computer?" I said, no, that's done with Zipatone. His reply: "Zipatone? ...What is THAT?" - June 8, 2009 at 7:21 PM
- -AO said...
LOL too bad about your bad experiences with Zip-A-Tone. When I was growing up in the '80s, Marvel Comics inkers like Terry Austin, Gene Day and Bob Layton made the stuff sing. It's an art unto itself and I still prefer it to any digital solutions, the least of which being the tone is directly on your line art for sale or display later, rather than big white spaces where you added tones digitally. I could probably lay it faster by hand, as well. Digital solutions often entail many frustrating and unnecessary steps IMO (the nerds who design programs make then complicated on purpose) and I try to avoid Photoshop as much as possible. You can still find the stuff at old mom and pop art supply stores here and there, off in a corner along with Presstype. (it's a hell of a lot easier to lay type on a Mac than tones). I found a cache of old Zip for $1 a page where I live. As the other commenter Madeline pointed out it has also been repackaged as "manga screen tones" and can be found at places like Blick.
PS: Is that the Judith Hunt who used to do a comic called "Evangeline" back in the day???? - July 26, 2009 at 1:28 PM
- Maurice said...
I used to use something called "Cat's Paw" zipatone, which had an irregular, "organic" look to it, ie the dots weren't laid out in straight rows. It could give a very nice effect. Can't find it anywhere online for love nor money, not even a mention... Anyone know what I'm talking about?
- October 3, 2009 at 4:51 AM
- James Gurney said...
Maurice, I remember that pattern, but I didn't know it had a name.
- October 3, 2009 at 6:03 AM
- dsc said...
When I was about 6 or 7 I thought for a while that the inkers did some sort of insanely regular hatching, when I saw that other sort of linear zip-a-tones that Severin (I don't know which one) used to use on Cracked magazine. Gene Ha does almost that, however.
- December 29, 2009 at 1:49 PM
- Mateus Reis said...
Glad to find your website as the first resource for "zipatone" search on Google.
- October 15, 2019 at 11:55 AM
- chalkdork said...
I just had a sheet arrive in the mail today (from US to Melbourne). It's the original Zip-a-tone, slightly yellowed, like it's been in storage for 40 years. It cost me $27USD so I don't think I'll be experimenting with it as planned.
I'm just gonna keep it as a momentum of times long gone. - November 8, 2020 at 10:26 PM
- David Edward Martin said...
I used hundreds of those sheets, whether textures, art elements, or lettering when I was working in an A/V art department and I was not not the one paying the bills.
On my own I treated the sheets as an expensive tool for only sparing use.
I got around my minimal budget by making a bunch of cheap photocopies of texture sheets that I could cut up and apply as needed. Sure it made the art obviously a collage but hey, the camera would hide that on the final image. - February 7, 2021 at 7:18 PM
- Unknown said...
When was zipatone invented?
- May 25, 2021 at 4:30 PM
- Unknown said...
Zipatone was great, but I hardly ever used the dot patterns. I used the colors. There were all kinds, different shades of red, etc. I used to have little scraps of it all over my apartment.
- December 8, 2021 at 10:46 PM


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Release date: 1997-10-17
6.2.1 is a bug-fix and usability release on 6.2.
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This is a minor bug-fix release on 6.2. For upgrades from pre-6.2 systems, a full dump/reload is required. Refer to the 6.2 release notes for instructions.
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