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Because Screening For Cancer Should Be Affordable
Nationwide Scheduling | Phone : 1-855-542-6566 | Fax : 847-984-1164
San Diego, CA Colonoscopy
ColonoscopyAssist is pleased to offer colonoscopy and upper endoscopy procedures in San Diego, CA as part of its nationwide colonoscopy program. The procedures are available at an all inclusive discounted rate of :
San Diego, CA Colonoscopy Rates
Service | Price* | Geographic Availability |
Colonoscopy | $1235 | See Locations |
Upper Endoscopy / EGD | $1235 | See Locations |
Colonoscopy & Upper Endoscopy | $2095 | See Locations |
Cologuard | $599 | Via mail in program |
Fecal Immunochemical Test (FIT) | $25 | Via mail in program |
Patients with low income or financial hardship can apply for financial assistance to further reduce their out of pocket cost. Please visit the financial assistance page for more information.
FAQ – Frequently Asked Questions
What is the ColonoscopyAssist Program?
ColonoscopyAssist is a social program that promotes CRC screenings such as colonoscopy by offering the procedures at affordable, all-inclusive rates. Our rates are affordable and truly transparent. Scheduling is simple with most persons receiving their procedures within 2 weeks. The organization was founded in 2010, schedules procedures in 30+ states and has assisted more than 25,000 individuals to date.
How much does a colonoscopy cost in San Diego, CA?
Colonoscopy procedures in San Diego, CA are $1235 when scheduled through the ColonoscopyAssist program.
The $1235 flat rate is a true all-inclusive rate. It includes all costs related to the procedure and there are no hidden charges. The price includes:
1) Physician fees
2) Facility or Hospital fees
3) Sedation or Anesthesia costs
4) Removal of polyps and taking of biopsies
5) Pathology Fees (unlimited number of polyps and biopsies)
6) Procedure Reports
Additional financial assistance is available for those that are unable to afford the procedure.
You can find additional details about our rate on our Nationwide Colonoscopy Program page.
Which healthcare facility will my colonoscopy be performed at?
You can look up the closest provider based on your zipcode using our Facility Locator. A "Physician Info" link has been provided for each facility so that patients can lookup detailed provider info and make an informed decision. You can also call our patient assistance line at (855) 542 6566 and a patient navigator can provide this information for you.
Can I schedule a diagnostic colonoscopy through the program?
Yes. The same rate applies for a diagnostic colonoscopy. ColonoscopyAssist does not differentiate between screening and diagnostic colonoscopy.
What are the advantages of scheduling a procedure through the program?
In addition to the affordable cost, there are a number of significant advantages of scheduling through the program. ColonoscopyAssist is a strong patient advocate and over the years has setup policies to protect patients from common problems faced as a self-pay patient.
You can learn about the many protections available to patients of the ColonoscopyAssist program. For example, providers can not insist on a follow up consult just to share reports.
Who is eligible to schedule through the program?
To be eligible for the our colonoscopy rate you must :
1) have a medical need for a colonoscopy (screening or diagnostic)
2) be paying for the entire procedure out of pocket
3) not be a member of Medicare, Medicaid or Tricare
The program does not have any residency, income or immigration limitations at this time. Certain limitations do apply if you intend to apply for financial assistance.
How do I schedule a colonoscopy appointment through the program?
Scheduling an appointment is quick and simple. To schedule you will need to provide your medical history and scheduling preferences. You can do this either online or on the phone with our schedulers. Once an appointment is scheduled an appointment confirmation will be provided.
You can initiate scheduling for a colonoscopy in one of two ways :
Online : Schedule Appointment
Phone : (855) 542-6566
How long does it take to get an appointment at the San Diego locations?
Appointments are dependent on availability at the facility selected. Most individuals are able to have their colonoscopy in approximately 2 weeks from the time the scheduling request is made to the program. For urgent requests, it is recommended to call our patient assistance line at 855-542-6566 and schedule over the phone.
Is an office visit required before the colonoscopy?
Consults are usually not needed for about 70% of patients scheduling through the program. However, they are required for medically complex patients. A patient navigator will let you know if a consult is needed prior to scheduling. Discounted rates for consultations are available (approx $100) and some providers include consults in their colonoscopy rate.
What qualifications do the physicians and facilities in San Diego have?
You can view the qualifications of each physician and facility using the Facility Locator. A physician information link is provided for each center allowing individuals to make an informed decision. Quality of care is our highest priority and only well established practices that regularly perform colonoscopy are allowed to participate in the program.
Do you offer colonoscopies in other cities in California?
Please visit our Facility Locator to look up centers in other cities in California. If you do not see a facility in your city, please call our scheduling line at (855) 542-6566 to speak with a representative about options.
» Learn more about our Colonoscopy program
» Learn more about our Upper Endoscopy program
» Learn more about our Cologuard program
» Learn more about our FIT program
*Pricing on this page is subject to change at any time. For the most updated and accurate pricing, please use our Locations & Prices tool.
Prefer a live person?
Schedule instantly on the phone
Mon-Fri | 8am to 5pm
Contact Us
ColonoscopyAssist Program
2100 Valley View Ln,
Suite #490,
Farmers Branch, TX 75234
Phone | : (855) 542-6566 |
Fax | : (847) 984-1164 |
Hours : Mon-Fri 8-5pm (CST)
I am so thankful that such an offer is available for those without insurance. Very affordable tests for colon cancer screening. The entire experience was so effortless for me. They made it so easy and did all they advertised to do. They guided me every step of the way.
As I don't have health insurance, I was pleased to learn about Colonoscopy Assist. Had it not been for my girlfriend, a former RN, I would have been unaware of your service. By working through Colonoscopy Assist, I have saved at least $500 versus a straight private pay. In addition, my last colonoscopy was well over a decade ago. Due to the number of polyps removed, I was instructed to return in 5 years. Had it not been for your services, I would have delayed this procedure even longer. Thankfully, there were no polyps this time. I now have peace of mind on which I cannot put a price.
You saved my life. Seriously. I am 46 but have a family history of colon cancer. When my brother had malignant polyps, I got a referral from my doctor. Our insurance doesn't cover colonoscopy so I would have had to pay $4600 out of pocket. Yikes. Found this site and made the appointment. Out of pocket costs were much more manageable, and the entire process worked as stated. A cancerous mass was found, so now I am getting treated. Otherwise I would never have known until it was too late. Thank you Colonoscopy Assist.
I'm very grateful for the service Colonoscopy Assist provides. Being able to have a colonoscopy at a significantly reduced rate was a real blessing. As advertised, I only paid the flat rate they stated from the outset. Due to a conflict, I had to reschedule my original procedure appointment but Colonoscopy Assist was able help me with this process. The doctor and his staff were very professional and everything went very well on the day of my procedure. Colonoscopy Assist provided helpful communication throughout the entire process, from my initial registration to my final procedure results!
Everything went smoothly and professionally as promised. There was no problem at check in and the facilty and staff were excellent and very caring.
We would use this program again for sure.
Operators were awesome. Quick to help me get appointment setup and walked me through what I needed to do. Pleasure dealing with them.
Great program! Very well done and organized. I got screened and it saved me a lot of money.
Everyone at the office was professional and friendly. It was very easy to make the appointment and the procedure went well. I appreciate the opportunity to have a colonoscopy at a much more affordable price. Thank you Colonoscopy Assist.
ColonoscopyAssist made the process very easy. The payment option really helped out and the discounted rate also. I was scheduled with a great provider who I actually used years prior through my insurance at the time. Great people to deal with and their program is extremely helpful.
From the moment I walked in and filled out paperwork to preparing for procedure. Everything went like clockwork. Will visit again in 5 years.
Excellent service!!!
ColonoscopyAssist made the process very easy. The payment option really helped out and the discounted rate also. I was scheduled with a great provider who I actually used years prior through my insurance at the time. Great people to deal with and their program is extremely helpful.
very simple, very thorough. They keep you well informed and check up on you too
Professional staff, very efficient, it was nice to have the doctor call to check on me after procedure. I highly recommend this facility…
This is a great and affordable way to get it done. I traveled 140 miles, but it was worth it. The facility and the doctor were nothing but top-notch. No difference in treatment or care than if you had the best insurance. I will definitely go back, and will recommend ColonscopyAssist to family and friends.
Used your program 5 years ago. Was very satisfied then. You contacted me with a reminder for five year checkup. Thank you. You helped get appt. with a facility closest to us. They were very nice staff and doctor was great. Again, thank you for your assistance in helping us out.
Colonoscopy/Assist was the best thing that happened for me. With family history of colon cancer I was long over due to do my first screening. Getting several quotes from several doctors I was looking at the unaffordable fees. When I contacted Colonoscopy/ Assist I was given the price that I could afford (a flat fee with no hidden fees)
very simple, very thorough. They keep you well informed and check up on you too
Can't afford a colonoscopy?
Other inexpensive screening options such as FIT are available.
It's only $25 and highly accurate.
Learn more >


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A prosecutor from the Mexican state of Coahuila dropped a bombshell today: The body of Zeta founder and leader Heriberto "El Lazca" Lazcano was stolen from a funeral home.
This is big news because the Mexican government has on at least one other occasion claimed to have captured a big fish in the war on drugsonly to have to walk it back, when questions arose.
As we reported earlier, the Mexican Navy announced Lazcano had been killed during a violent confrontation with federal authorities. Later on, according to El Blog del Narco, which tracks the Mexican drug war, they said they based the assessment on finger prints and photographs of the body. Well aware of the skepticism they released pictures of the dead body.
But, El Universal reports, that during a press conference Homero Ramos threw doubt on the Mexican government's claim when he revealed that Lazcano's body had been stolen from a funeral home.
Ramos said Lazcano was found by the marines in a baseball field. Ramos said he tried to get away in a truck and was accompanied only by a single body guard, who launched grenades against the Marines.
The Marines caught up to them, killing two people including Lazcano.
The San Antonio Express-News reports:
"A former Mexican special forces soldier, Lazcano is one of the original members of the Zetas. Former members of the Mexican military's special air group, the Zetas initially served as an assassin squad for the Gulf Cartel. In 2010, they split from their former masters and have been waging a bloody turf war along the U.S.-Mexico border.
"Over the last year, the Gulf Cartel has fallen from power as it was torn by internal strife and the Mexican government has picked off its leaders one by one."
So, if this turns out to be true, it would signal a major victory for outgoing President Felipe Calderón, who launched the war against organized crime in Mexico shortly after taking office in 2006.
Copyright 2021 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Phasellus enim libero, blandit vel sapien vitae, condimentum ultricies magna et. Quisque euismod
Built With iOS In Mind
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Diclofenac Gel is used for treating pain in certain joints (e.g., in the knees or hands) caused by osteoarthritis. It may also be used for other conditions as determined by your doctor. Diclofenac Gel is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID).
Use Diclofenac Gel as directed by your doctor.
- Do not use in larger or smaller amounts or for longer than recommended. Follow the directions on your prescription label.
- Do not use Diclofenac Gel on an open skin wound, or on areas of eczema, infection, skin rash, or burn injury.
- Do not cover the treated skin with a bandage or expose it to heat from a hot tub, heating pad, sauna, or heated water bed. Heat or bandaging can increase the amount of drug you absorb through your skin and may cause harmful effects.
- Wash your hands after applying Diclofenac Gel, unless you are treating the skin on your hands. Do not wear gloves for at least 10 minutes after applying Diclofenac Gel to the hands.
- After you apply Diclofenac Gel gel, wait at least 10 minutes before dressing and at least 1 hour before you bathe or shower.
- To treat arthritis pain in the foot, spread the Diclofenac gel out onto all areas of the foot including the toes and soles. When treating the hand, spread the gel out onto all areas of the hand including the fingers and palms.
- If you miss a dose of Diclofenac Gel, use it as soon as possible. If it is almost time for your next dose, skip the missed dose and go back to your regular dosing schedule. Do not use 2 doses at once.
Ask your health care provider any questions you may have about how to use Diclofenac Gel.
Store Diclofenac Gel at controlled room temperature, between 68 and 77 degrees F (20 and 25 degrees C). Store away from heat, moisture, and light. Do not store in the bathroom. Avoid freezing. Keep Diclofenac Gel out of the reach of children and away from pets.


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- 9" inches in length with a total weight of 4oz
- Color - Pink & Silver Hologram
- Lure glows underwater attracting a lot of attention
- Can be trolled, cast, or jigged
- Works for Freshwater and Saltwater fishing
Everything Eats Squid – Glow In The Dark Lures is the latest innovative Squid Skirts lure. This Glow In The Dark lure is an absolute game changer for freshwater and saltwater fish. Once this lure hits the water, the glow of this lure illuminates, attracting attention from anything around it. This 9 inch lure is an irresistible bait to all types of game fish and can be trolled, cast, or jigged. Toss one of these out on your next trip - you won't be sorry!
0 Reviews
Shipping & Returns
Returns Policy
You may return items within 30 days of delivery for a full refund. We'll also pay the return shipping costs if the return is a result of our error (you received an incorrect or defective item, etc.).
You should expect to receive your refund within 2 days of giving your package to the return shipper, however, in many cases you will receive a refund more quickly. This time period includes the transit time for us to receive your return from the shipper (2 to 3 business days), the time it takes us to process your return once we receive it (probably same day), and the time it takes your bank to process our refund request (probably a day or two).
If you need to return an item, simply login to your account, view the order using the "Complete Orders" link under the My Account menu and click the Return Item(s) button. We'll notify you via e-mail of your refund once we've received and processed the returned item.
We can ship to virtually any address in the world. Note that there are restrictions on some products, and some products cannot be shipped to international destinations.
When you place an order, we will estimate shipping and delivery dates for you based on the availability of your items and the shipping options you choose. Depending on the shipping provider you choose, shipping date estimates may appear on the shipping quotes page.
Please also note that the shipping rates for many items we sell are weight-based. The weight of any such item can be found on its detail page. To reflect the policies of the shipping companies we use, all weights will be rounded up to the next full pound.


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Massive Monte Cristo Island Leg
Massive Monte Cristo Island Leg
Lead Time: 1-2 Business Weeks
Need your leg(s) split, trimmed, notched, or adjusted?
Current Lead Time: 1-2 Business Weeks for Production*
*Most products are made-to-order within 7 business days, however, large orders or orders with extra operations (trimming, hanger bolts, splitting, notching, etc.) may take a full 14 business days for production. Please keep this in mind when ordering. This estimate does not include shipping time.
Typical Shipping Times:
North and South Carolina • 1-2 business days
Eastern States • 2-3 business days
Central States • 2-4 business days
Mountain States • 4-6 business days
Pacific States • 5-7 business days
Fancy Table Legs (FTL) 100% guarantees all of its products. Customers may return any of the company's products within 90 days of purchase for a replacement or credit. All returns must have prior authorization by Fancy Table Legs. All products must be returned in their original condition with original packaging materials.
All returns (not due to quality issues) are subject to a 30% restocking charge. If the customer is exchanging products, the restocking fee will be reduced to 15% of the original product's value. Customer is responsible for all shipping costs and any additional related cost to the return of the product.
CANCELATIONS: If for any reason you need to cancel an order that is already in production, there is a 30% restocking fee. Please note, it may take up to 10 business days for your refund to process.
SPECIAL OPERATION orders and CUSTOM sales are final, and no returns will be accepted.
Need your leg(s) split, trimmed, notched, or adjusted?
Just add on your needed operation below. Please note, extra operations are per part. Add as many as needed. Don't see what you need? Give us a call at (877) 434-4440.


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Welcome to GeneratorNickname.com, your ultimate destination to generate special character names for your gaming avatar. Get inspired by our list of macobykendy and use them in your favorite games or social networking applications.
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If you love to see beautiful women wearing leather boots then you will love my corner of the web. I have always enjoyed my leather boot fetish - thigh high - over knee - knee - ankle, all with high heels.
GirlsinLeatherBoot.com started in 2004 with two girls wearing boots discovering their love of boots and each other and over the last 7 years the site has grown and grown until now the site is the largest leather boots dedicated site on the net.
Every gallery ever made is still here! Updated without fail for 7 years, every set and video all naturally dedicated to beautiful girls wearing leather boots!
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This bag is awesome. It has a change mat, detachable insulated bag at side, moisture sealed compartment for damp items, pram attachments, adjustable shoulder straps and more. This is an absolute gem.
I just want to formally compliment you on how fantastic your gifts are. We sought a quality product to reflect the value we put on our clients who in this instance are the end receivers. You have served our cause proud in that regard and the client's feedback has been extremely favourable!
Just wanted to say a big thank you to you guys. Our boss received her delivery yesterday and she said it was beautiful. She loved it. Thanks for putting it together so quickly... we really do appreciate it.
Thank you so much for all your help in re-arranging the delivery of the basket of goodies welcoming beautiful little Lucinda. The happy family were absolutely thrilled with its contents. Your business was such a gem of a find... wonderful courteous service. I will be recommending you to all my friends.
Thanks Sharon. 100% THE best service every single time!! Cheers
Hi Sharon, just wanted you to know that Chook loved the gift you sent for me, and so too did the staff there.
Hi Sharon, our gift boxes have arrived - thank you for the speedy service. As this is our first order, we decided to open one up and taste the goodies inside... absolutely divine!
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To receive an unexpected, beautifully presented "thank you for doing business with us" gift has certainly gone a long way to creating further rapport with our clients, many of them calling us just to say how thrilled they were.
I found your company online earlier this year, and used you guys to order a bunch of corporate hampers. The service last time was fantastic so I decided to order our Christmas Hampers through you. We received them to our office last night... thank you so much... they look amazing!
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It's easy for learner drivers to search for "driving instructors near in West london", but it's not as easy to find one. That's why we are here. If you're looking for driving instructors providing automatic driving lessons in West london or manual lessons, or simply want to find an instructor with good ratings and reviews, our mission is to get you on the road quickly and easily.
Learner connects you to local driving instructors and schools so you can book lessons in in West london and all across the UK. Our handy app gives you one place to manage and track your progress.
Each place comes with a different set of challenges, from big cities like London, Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham, right down to smaller places like Salisbury, Winchester, Bournemouth and Lincoln we've got you covered.Wherever you are on the map, there will be an instructor for you and our reviews engine ensure you find the right instructor in every area, from the hilly peak districts of Ashbourne to places up north like Sheffield, Leeds and Doncaster or Nottingham, Leicester and Norwich right across to Cardiff, with learnr you'll find the people to get you on the road and drive free.


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This release contains a variety of fixes from 8.1.20. For information about new features in the 8.1 major release, see Section E.114, « Version 8.1 ».
A dump/restore is not required for those running 8.1.X. However, if you are upgrading from a version earlier than 8.1.18, see the release notes for 8.1.18.
Enforce restrictions in plperl using an opmask applied to the whole interpreter, instead of using Safe.pm (Tim Bunce, Andrew Dunstan)
Recent developments have convinced us that Safe.pm is too insecure to rely on for making plperl trustable. This change removes use of Safe.pm altogether, in favor of using a separate interpreter with an opcode mask that is always applied. Pleasant side effects of the change include that it is now possible to use Perl's strict pragma in a natural way in plperl, and that Perl's $a and $b variables work as expected in sort routines, and that function compilation is significantly faster. (CVE-2010-1169)
Prevent PL/Tcl from executing untrustworthy code from pltcl_modules (Tom)
PL/Tcl's feature for autoloading Tcl code from a database table could be exploited for trojan-horse attacks, because there was no restriction on who could create or insert into that table. This change disables the feature unless pltcl_modules is owned by a superuser. (However, the permissions on the table are not checked, so installations that really need a less-than-secure modules table can still grant suitable privileges to trusted non-superusers.) Also, prevent loading code into the unrestricted « normal » Tcl interpreter unless we are really going to execute a pltclu function. (CVE-2010-1170)
Do not allow an unprivileged user to reset superuser-only parameter settings (Alvaro)
Previously, if an unprivileged user ran ALTER USER ... RESET ALL for himself, or ALTER DATABASE ... RESET ALL for a database he owns, this would remove all special parameter settings for the user or database, even ones that are only supposed to be changeable by a superuser. Now, the ALTER will only remove the parameters that the user has permission to change.
Avoid possible crash during backend shutdown if shutdown occurs when a CONTEXT addition would be made to log entries (Tom)
In some cases the context-printing function would fail because the current transaction had already been rolled back when it came time to print a log message.
Update pl/perl's ppport.h for modern Perl versions (Andrew)
Fix assorted memory leaks in pl/python (Andreas Freund, Tom)
Prevent infinite recursion in psql when expanding a variable that refers to itself (Tom)
Ensure that contrib/pgstattuple functions respond to cancel interrupts promptly (Tatsuhito Kasahara)
Make server startup deal properly with the case that shmget() returns EINVAL for an existing shared memory segment (Tom)
This behavior has been observed on BSD-derived kernels including OS X. It resulted in an entirely-misleading startup failure complaining that the shared memory request size was too large.
Update time zone data files to tzdata release 2010j for DST law changes in Argentina, Australian Antarctic, Bangladesh, Mexico, Morocco, Pakistan, Palestine, Russia, Syria, Tunisia; also historical corrections for Taiwan.


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Welcome to our website! As we have the ability to list on our website (our selection changes all of the time), it is not feasible for a company our size to record and playback the descriptions on every item on our website. However, if you are an American with a disability we are here to help you. Please call our disability services phone line at 714-288-9421 during regular business hours and one of our kind and friendly personal shoppers will help you navigate through our website, help conduct advanced searches, help you choose the item you are looking for with the specifications you are seeking, read you the specifications of any item and consult with you about the products themselves. There is no charge for the help of this personal shopper for any American with a disability. Finally, your personal shopper will explain our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service, and help you place an order if you so desire.
Design Center Furniture in Orange, CA is an authorized dealer of Stein World Products. Stein World finds, creates and delivers the finest and most unique hand-painted products from around the world. Established in 1985, Stein World has a rich history as one of the leading pioneers in the furniture industry. For more than 50 years they have developed true partnerships with the exceptional manufacturers and artisans who help make Stein World products. They are committed to providing classic designs, stylish silhouettes, fashion-forward colors and quality craftsmanshipall at an affordable price. Their accents, mirrors, chairs, lighting, occasional tables, vanity sinks, media consoles and casual dining sets are what make a house a home.
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To preserve the beauty of your product, we recommend following these guidelines for its care:
- Clean your shoes with a brush or a soft, slightly damp cloth.
- To maintain their appearance, do not rub and avoid contact with abrasive substances or surfaces.
- Keep your shoes in the two felt pouches provided and store them in a cool, dry, well-ventilated place.
- Avoid contact with water, any substance containing alcohol (perfumes, solvents etc.) or oil (makeup), and abrasive products in general.
- If shoes have been in contact with water, it is important to allow them to dry thoroughly on shoe trees before cleaning them.
- It is important to allow your sneakers to air naturally, and to this end they possess a removable insock.
- If your sneakers become wet, simply remove the insock and leave them to dry in a cool, well-ventilated place. This will ensure additional comfort when they are next worn.


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Here's how to tell the Crown that Camilla Belle deserves an award:
- In the large space below, tell Their Majesties what it is about this person that makes them special. Is it a single event or a list as long as your arm? Describe it. Let them know what you know.
- If you know just the award that fits, suggest it. If you don't, don't worry; the Royals will think of something suitable.
- Identify yourself, so the Crown know who you are and can consider their response accordingly.
- Provide your email address. If you don't do this, Their Majesties will be unable to reply to clarify details or thank you for your input. Don't worry about protecting your anonymity: our Royalty keep an awful lot of secrets, so they're not going to blab about this. Think of it as doctor/patient confidentiality without the bulk billing.
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"I just want to keep a high pace and finish people. I'm going to prove to everyone that Max Holloway should be one of the feared strikers of the featherweight division." - Max Holloway
At 16 years old, most American teenagers are learning how to drive, but one particular Hawaiian started to train in kickboxing. In two years, he smashed his way through the amateur ranks, and turned pro at 18. A year later, he was 4-0 in the cage, being sought out by UFC talent to be a training partner, and highly touted on the internet as a top prospect for a major MMA organization. Now, at the ripe age of 20 years old, this born brawler nicknamed "Blessed" scored his first victory inside the Octagon after putting on a masterful striking clinic at The Ultimate Fighter 15 finale.
In short, Max Holloway is a lightning quick study of the standup game, and he won't stop his assaulting apprenticeship until he's considered one of the best at it.
"I try to compare myself all day to other strikers," explains Holloway. "I like watching Erik Koch and Anthony Pettis. I like watching their highlight videos. I pick stuff from their style. Jose Aldo, Anderson Silva, and Renan Barao's highlight videos. I would like to get myself to where the fans and the UFC see me as dangerous as them one day. I want to be known like how they're known – as the best strikers in their division."
These Youtube sessions are not for sheer entertainment, but used for inspiration, as Holloway has been known to take what he's seen on the small screen and put it to use in the cage. "That elbow was thanks to Urijah Faber and Anderson Silva," tells Holloway who peppered Strikeforce veteran Harris Sarmiento with the unconventional elbow strike, first made famous by UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva in his knockout over Tony Fryklund, after hurting his hands in the opening round of that March 2011 bout. "That back uppercut elbow? Nobody seems to block that. They're thinking, 'he's not going to punch me' and, boom, you throw that elbow and you surprise them."
The Oahu native showed off every bit of his nearly never-ending arsenal of strikes in his second UFC featherweight appearance in June against Pat Schilling. The bout was a polar opposite to Holloway's first round debut loss to Dustin "The Diamond" Poirier at UFC 143. Where once he looked frantic and reckless, Holloway was now composed, calculated, and crushing. For 15 minutes, he dissected Schilling from legs to head with punches, kicks, knees, and elbows, and when it was over, Holloway's hand was happily raised.
"I was aiming for a big win," says Holloway. "I was telling myself if I lose this fight, I will lose my job. I knew what to expect this time. It was a little smaller event than UFC 143. But I had been there already. I was calm, cool, and relaxed all week, so I felt great for that fight. I would have loved to get the finish. I thought it would be a little closer fight. I'm glad it came out the way it did - a dominant fight. We trained for three fives. I was training hard. I was thinking that I have to end this guy because I don't want to end up in a decision. I was training for a finish the whole fight camp. It wasn't really what I expected and I really wanted a finish, but I'll take a dominant win any day."
Even for a novice judge, Holloway made it easy by landing over 100 significant strikes and stuffing every single one of the near 20 takedown attempts Schilling offered. While his opponent was certainly conscious throughout the battering, Holloway dealt most of the punishment to Schilling's body. If there was any question to be raised after the across the board 30-27, one-sided affair: why was there not a single 10-8 round given? The often quoted phrase from UFC President Dana White "don't leave it in the hands of the judges" still seems apropos, even though they scored that Holloway won, but not by enough of a margin.
"It's what Dana White says," affirms Holloway. "It's kind of weird, the judges' rating system. I don't know how they judge. I really do believe judges should look into giving people points or half points for defending takedowns to favor the strikers who do that. I believe defending a takedown is just like getting a takedown. But we get no glory for it. You hear commentators say 'great takedown defense'. You can beat a guy on the feet for four minutes, but if he takes you down in the last minute and ground and pounds a little bit then he wins the round? I don't really know about the judges' score, I was just happy I came out the victor."
Up next for Holloway's hitting hostility is an August 11th date with the Knockout of the Night and Fight of the Night winner at the TUF 15 finale: Justin Lawrence. While Holloway's kickboxing acumen dates back only a few years, Lawrence has been throwing hook-kicks and roundhouses since he was six, while being trained at his stepfather Benny Voyles' gym in St. Louis, Missouri. Besides a 4-0 pro MMA record, which includes the multiple bonus fetching KO kick win over fellow TUF alum John Cofer, Lawrence has a lengthy list of amateur kickboxing and boxing titles and spent time training at BlackHouse MMA with the likes of "The Spider" Silva. This might all be intimidating for some, but for Holloway it is the opportunity of a lifetime to test his striking skills.
"I got the call not too long after my fight - about two weeks," discloses Holloway. "They gave me the name 'Justin Lawrence' and I was excited. Great guy. This guy is like me - he likes to stand and bang. We don't need to do none of this wrestling or grappling stuff. They're always talking about his striking. I want to put his hype to the test. Come August 11th, let's see who comes out and is the better striker. It should be a fun fight for the fans."
On paper, these 145-pounders should scrap standing with neither sniffing for a takedown. Not that Lawrence doesn't have a cache of creative kicks of his own, but "The American Kidd" will look to use his technique and power to beat Holloway. On the other side, Holloway is relentless with punches in bunches and has a penchant for punctuating combinations with flying knees. If you've seen him fight, it's obvious why UFC lightweight Jeremy Stephens brought Holloway into his training camp to act as Anthony "Showtime" Pettis. It's that rare ability for an air assault that Holloway has, like Pettis, where improvisation meets an opponent's chin for demolishing results.
"My striking, I don't really have that one knockout punch, so I tag you and keep tagging you until I catch you with one you don't see or you just give up," asserts Holloway. "He's more of a power guy. It's going to be pretty much speed versus power in this one. On the feet, I feel so comfortable there. I feel like nobody can beat me. That's my confidence and that's the type of confidence I think you need to be successful in this sport. That's the mindset you need."
In preparation for Lawrence, Holloway is busy training with the fight team at Gracie Technics in Honolulu. Holloway's MMA maturation is carefully guided by Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt under Professor Pedro Sauer, wildly accomplished local grappler, and owner/operator of the Gracie Technics gym, Rylan Lizares. The steady hand keeping Holloway's punches and kicks fast and crisp is 7-0 featherweight Dustin Kimura. What was readily apparent in the win over Schilling is that Holloway is beginning to understand how to use the length of his 5-11 frame to his advantage when striking.
"Way before I started training with the guys I'm training with now, I used to like to welcome people into the pocket," admits Holloway. "I used to feel better in the pocket. Now, I'm trying to use my range and it's an awesome feeling. It's great that I have the range and I'm not scared to go into the pocket if we have too."
This Saturday, two trained kickboxers will seek a highlight reel knockout to the delight of the Octagon audience. "The fans should expect a standup war," states Holloway, whose goal to have his name read along with the Aldos and Silvas of the world starts through winning a striker's duel with Lawrence. "I can keep a high intensity and I know how to stick and move now. I just want to keep a high pace and finish people. I'm going to prove to everyone that Max Holloway should be one of the feared strikers of the featherweight division."
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It may seem pointless dealing with the contemptible behavior of trolls, an activity annoying enough for any hundred people. Especially when the troll in question takes this pitifully dishonest tack of assailing us with the most repugnant insults he can come up with (and if you ask me, Matt could hardly be blamed if he knocked Gavin Chandler's teeth down his throat over the things he wrote about Beth, though of course Matt won't, because he's a bigger man than that, and both Matt and Beth have already dismissed Gavin as beneath their notice, let alone their contempt) only to shift gears, apologize profusely, and try to claim that all he was doing was trying to teach us a lesson about how horrible it feels to be abused so awfully, which he seems to think we do to all our callers, and to which he also seems to think his disgracefully juvenile behavior is somehow analogous.
In short, Gavin's a despicable creep whose failure to make his point effectively — if in fact that's what he was all about — is so epic it's hard to wrap your mind around it fully. I didn't think it was possible, but he's actually been worse than the lamentable Yomin, whom I did almost sue for libel (and whose life has since spectacularly fallen apart, as he's currently facing misdemeanor domestic violence charges). Gavin's like someone who notices that his neighbors have allowed their trash cans to spill over onto his yard, and responds by burning their house down, then saying, "There! You see what it's like having your property line violated? Be more respectful next time!"
Gavin wrote what he calls his "final" email to us — though there have been several after that, which I won't read, even though the subject line on one of them is "I am deeply ashamed of myself." (He should be, but a burnt bridge is a burnt bridge.) Still, with this one, he promised that if we posted it, he'd go away for good. I doubt this, and he's still commenting like mad on our Facebook page. But here's the letter, with responses from both Tracie (reprinted from Facebook with permission) and myself, in the hopes (eyeroll) that he'll live up to his promise.
Yes, I know, feeding trolls only makes them come back for more. But I weigh the instructive value of doing this kind of thing to be worth something, if only so that people know what's out there awaiting you when you do what we do, and how desperately people will distort the facts to make a point that really wasn't all that earth-shaking to begin with. Still, I'll understand anyone who thinks any more attention given this kid is unwarranted, and chooses to skip this post.
Gavin's subject line on this one was "AETV - A Respectful Presentation of My Actual Concerns."
I decided to gather my thoughts, take a hot bath, and write a message free of insults and hate, to clearly explain my concerns. This email is the result.
Tracie: I can hardly wait.
There's more to life than the first amendment. What about being calm and collected when you take viewer calls? You should try that. You'd reach more hearts and minds that way.
Tracie: Very insightful from the guy who submitted nothing but letter after letter full of laughable lists of ridiculous slanders as his input to reaching hearts and minds.
Martin: The Atheist Experience has run continually since 1997, when I suspect Gavin was still playing with Transformers. For most of that time it has been a live call-in show. The entire time, it has been a learning experience. One of the things about live television is that you never know what you're going to get. A call can start well then go south in a hurry. A theist you thought might be a jerk may turn out to provide interesting conversation, while a self-described atheist (lookin' at you, Charlie) may turn out to be a total douchey troll.
When I was host, I lost my temper a couple of times, which I'm not proud of. But you know, that's all part of learning. I also recall many heated debates with Christian callers — and before the days of YouTube and streaming, most of our callers were Christian — that nonetheless never collapsed into name-calling and rage.
Still, discussions between Christians and atheists can get heated simply by their very nature. For believers, their emotional attachment to the faith is so powerful that it's hard for them not to blow a gasket when confronted by a confident atheist argument. And no two callers are the same, even when, as today, most of them are fellow atheists.
Gavin is trying to claim that being rude and insulting to callers is our modus operandi across the board, which any honest viewer who's watched more than a tiny handful of fan-posted YouTube clips knows full well is just plain false. So if Gavin's starting out his "respectful" presentation with a total misrepresentation of the show, how does he expect to reach our hearts and minds now?
Only a child would...
Tracie: EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION ATTEMPT FLAG: If you do what I'm about to say, then you're a "child." What he doesn't get is that this only means it's his personal assessment that only a child would do what he's about to say. And he doesn't get that it requires buy-in from the other party in the conversation to have any real impact. In other words, if I disagree that only a child would do it, it takes the wind out of the proverbial sails.
...defend screaming and swearing and belittling someone by wrapping it in the Constitution. Sure, it is OK to do it, under law...
Tracie: That would mean that it is, in fact, defended by the Constitution — and so does not require "wrapping" in anything — it is legal. It is Constitutional. We agree.
Martin: Gavin has this odd idea that, by acknowledging the Constitutional rights of groups like the Phelpses to hold protests at veterans' funerals — something every one of us finds a loathsome exercise in attention-seeking — somehow equates to endorsing that activity. Frankly, anyone so stupid as to not grasp that basic distinction is beyond communicating with, IMO.
We ran into this same stupid attitude last year from some people, when we acknowledged the rights of the Cordoba Initiative to construct Park 51 in Manhattan on property they owned. A handful of folks accused us of being "soft" on Islam. Honestly, how willfully ignorant and dishonest do you have to be to equate the one thing with the other? Acknowledging a right is not the same thing as supporting or endorsing the person(s) exercising that right. I mean, freaking duh! (And anyway, all those people protesting what they falsely call the "Ground Zero Mosque"? We acknowledge their rights too. Fancy that!)
but you seem to think that something legal is also MORALLY acceptable.
Tracie: Not quite — because I'd have to first see the clip in which we reacted so horribly to a caller that it could be unambiguously labeled as "immoral." Unfortunately, Gavin supplied no examples. But next, I want to note that when a behavior by others is labeled "immoral" — the onus is upon the one labeling to demonstrate it. Many actions have no moral quality at all — such as eating a berry. Is it moral or immoral? It's simply eating a berry — there is nothing moral to judge there. And could someone on the other end of a phone say an "immoral" thing to me? They can say things that are rude. Things I may not like. Things that may prompt me to hang up. But "immoral"? I'm not quite sold that raising your voice and using an expletive is "immoral."
You're confusing laws and morals.
Tracie: I think you're confusing "uncivil" with "immoral." Rude is not immoral. The bar for immoral is rather higher than rude.
They aren't the same thing.
Tracie: And nobody at AETV has ever said law is morality. In fact, we've often pointed out to callers these are two separate things — law and morality. So, no argument there.
Many things that are legal could be considered immoral.
Tracie: I wouldn't say "many" — but certainly some.
It's legal for a person to lie, so long as they aren't entering a contract or aren't under oath... but most people find it morally wrong to lie... how many relationships have been destroyed by dishonesty?
Tracie: Duplicity is something I would agree is, in some circumstances, immoral. Fortunately where it causes real damage, we do generally also have laws against it — such as fraud (which was mentioned). Is a lie that does no harm immoral? Can lying break relationships? Yes. I agree it can. But is dishonesty that harms a good comparison to rude honesty? If his only point is to say law and morality aren't the same, then no dialog needed, since we agree.
Martin: There are immoral lies, then there are totally moral lies. (If I know where Anne Frank is hiding, I'm going to lie my ass off to the Nazis.) Beyond that, I need no lecture on the morality of lying from a contemptible little fuck who repeatedly accused Matt of stealing money from the ACA to pay for his wedding.
Aw, was I being insulting again? You're welcome.
It is legal to cheat on your spouse, but most people find it immoral. It hurts the other party greatly, usually, and often destroys the relationship (where children are sometimes involved). But should freedom to cheat trump these other things? Since cheating is legal, is it also morally acceptable?
Tracie: See above.
It is legal to swear, call people names, and publicly humiliate them. But is it morally right?
Martin: Physician, heal thyself.
Tracie: And here I fail to see the comparison. For example, there was a lot of ink spilled when a woman called AETV to defend her beliefs and ended with an assertion she didn't need to defend anything to AETV. Matt asked "why the fuck did you call, then?" — and I found it to be a legitimate question and a fair expression of exasperation. Some people were upset that the woman excused herself from the call at that point, and felt Matt chased her off. But really, at the point she is asserting she isn't going to defend anything, wasn't she pretty well done? So, was the swearing "immoral," simply because this one caller said she was offended by it and hung up? I'd have to say "no."
Can I humiliate someone else on AETV? If so, how? I don't see this. If you think it's possible to verbally publicly humiliate a person by expressing your honest opinions about them (and bear in mind callers call us and can hang up any time), how are they humiliated when they're totally cloaked from public view and nobody even knows who they are but for the name they choose to give the phone screener? Additionally if you and I were in public and you tried to humiliate me, how would you go about it? Let's say you begin hurling insults. I think you'd come off looking like a loon as I walked away. But I'd hardly be personally "humiliated" by some wingnut hurling names at me publicly.
Such treatment can cause a person to have a nervous breakdown, become depressed, or even have thoughts of suicide. It can destroy a person's self esteem, cause them to withdraw into themselves, and make them lose all hope.
Tracie: Ah, OK, here is the core of our difference. I don't have a magic wand that gives me power to make people give a shit what I, as a total stranger, think of them. Anyone on this planet can say and think "I don't care what this woman thinks," and I have zero power to force them to care. So, no, I can't "cause" any of those things listed above by either having or expressing my negative assessment of a person or their beliefs. No matter how rude I am (and in fact, the more rude I am, the more they should realize I'm not a person whose opinion they should bother with), why should anyone care what Tracie thinks or says? Who am I? How does my opinion impact their lives if I do nothing to impact their lives, only express my assessment of it? Isn't their decision to internalize it and make it powerful theirs?
Martin: Essentially Gavin is chiding us because we are not sufficiently psychic to know in advance whether or not the caller on the other end may have such profound psychological distress in his life that he might just haul off and blow his brains out because Matt calls him an idiot. Well, gee, guilty as charged.
But what is Gavin's alternative there? A world where everyone is walking on eggshells, not speaking an opinion for fear that the person whose feelings they hurt might just jump off a bridge? How can we control another person's emotional state? And how is any choice they make our responsibility? We are a bunch of folks on TV taking about a subject — atheism — most people find socially unacceptable anyway. How exactly does Gavin propose we present it in a way inoffensive to everyone, even those predisposed to be offended as much as possible?
I do not deny the power of suasion. It is possible to be an irresponsible public figure whose words do harm. There are at least two incidents where men have been arrested while on their way to commit mass murders (one at the offices of the Tides Foundation, one at Planned Parenthood), who confessed to police that they were inspired to do their crimes after listening to Glenn Beck. While I don't hold Beck to blame for their choice to commit murder (he's very careful that way), I do think Beck is deliberately irresponsible in the way he creates a tone of fear, hatred and paranoia that a mentally imbalanced fan can run with.
Still, there's no remote comparison to that, and anything we've ever done on AETV. And as far as telling a stupid and arrogant caller that he's being stupid and arrogant, well, I say that's fair game. The vast majority of our calls are civil and pleasant. The crazy ones just make for the most entertaining and popular YouTube clips.
But since it is legal, that makes it ok?
Tracie: No, what makes it (not "OK," as it would be generally rude to swear and scream at people, but...) not immoral is that the "damage" caused is self-inflicted. You're basically willing to do self-inflicted damage in order to try to frame me for it. I think that is closer to immoral than calling someone an idiot. Trying, unabashed, to be an emotional manipulator is about as low as one can get.
It is ok to destroy someone's self esteem, peaceful mind, and hope for the future? It's legal, but is it morally right?
Tracie: The problem is that words can't do this in the context we're discussing. A subjective assessment of me by a stranger who has talked with me for a few minutes over the phone, while I remain anonymous to everyone, can hardly really harm me. Any "harm" I suffer as a result is at my own hands/brain.
I believe that with my few short examples, I have demonstrated that even something allowed under the law can be harmful to real human beings. This is the essence, the core reason that I object to the way you handle some of your callers.
Tracie: Gavin did give a couple decent examples of things that are legal that can mess up lives. But name-calling or swearing, in the AETV context, wasn't one of them. That's the problem.
Martin: The adult world is harsh. AETV isn't Romper Room. We don't seek to hurt anyone. But we have a duty to all our viewers to be as honest in our opinion and our communication as we can. Take yourself as a prime example, Gavin: We didn't make you feel the way you feel about us. We didn't make you troll the hell out of us with crazy emails full of threats and personal attacks. You chose to do those things, and the derision you're now enduring on Facebook and at this blog is the result of that choice — your choice. And the moment you have the epiphany that lets you understand that, you'll probably understand why your sanctimonious preaching about "moral" behavior is meeting with such universal derision, and why I set your words in Comic Sans, and why no one has gotten your "point," which you buried under a wave of petulant assholishness.
When you guys fiercely defend the first amendment, you are missing the larger picture.
Tracie: I guarantee you, we're not. And we don't use the first amendment as a defense for our responses to callers, anyway, because generally we don't even agree there's a basic moral problem with our caller responses. So we don't even need to get into legal defenses of it. The "harm" you're claiming isn't real. You can't call it "immoral" when the only "harm" it causes is genuinely self-inflicted discomfort. That's the caller's choice, not our doing or intent.
Words sometimes can, and do cause harm.
Martin: Says the piece of shit fucktool who wrote this: "Matt, by the way, Beth is an ugly fucking goon. Jesus Christ, you couldn't do any better than to find some ginger-haired pug-faced neanderthal for a potential wife? You can tell by the slanted aloof look on her face that her daddy definitely boned her in her ginger asshole a few more times than was necessary." Speaking from experience, Gavin?
Tracie: Not when they're honest assessments handed out to anonymous callers by people who have no authority over them or desire to interfere in their lives.
Martin: And it's my honest assessment that Gavin is a piece of shit fucktool. It would be tragic if he were to jump off a bridge. Not to me, but to someone.
What you are promoting by your unwavering support of the first amendment over all else is that respect, human decency, common courtesy, and polite restraint are worth nothing, and count for nothing.
Martin: (Breathe... count to 10...)
Tracie: Wow. So, unless we gut free speech (for the speech that most needs defending — offensive speech), we're against human decency: false dilemma fallacy. Fred Phelps may be indecent, but I can guarantee you that someone somewhere thinks what you have to say is indecent...
Martin: I'd say those someones number in the thousands by now.
Tracie: Should we only talk, then, about the weather? The fact is, you don't pass laws protecting speech that are intended to protect small talk and compliments. What sort of speech needs legal protection? That would be speech that is in danger of being silenced. Like him or not, that would be Fred Phelps.
That, to me, is shameful. Whether the Constitution says it or not, with freedom comes responsibility.
Martin: I think your very existence is shameful and irresponsible, Gavin. That's the thing about life. You gotta take the bad with the good.
Tracie: And maturity. Learn that you're hurting yourself. Stop blaming others for your childish offenses and attitude. Learn to not be so sensitive to what other people think. You really can choose to not care or worry about it. Try it. You'll be amazed how simple it is.
There is an element of verbal abuse that you have totally ignored, and that is the emotional element.
Martin: I think I'm just going to stop buying irony/hypocrisy meters. When they explode so frequently they get expensive to replace.
Tracie: When a person is, again, anonymous, and has a capacity to hang up at any time, you can't verbally abuse them beyond what they agree to accept. Again, if they don't like what they get, click, and we're shut down — it's that easy. How can I abuse anyone, beyond what they agree to accept, who has the capacity to shut me down that easily at any time?
Words can be strung together in such a fashion that they are considered abuse, legally. Ask psychologists about the effects of emotional abuse. Sometimes the effects can be as profound as the effects of physical abuse.
Martin: Did you consult a psychologist before composing that impressive string of remarks about Beth, you cockwart?
Tracie: Yes, and these studies were done on the short-term exposure (couple minutes or less) of AETV callers who where otherwise stable and had a host they don't even know say to them, as they were totally anonymous, "that's ridiculous." This is what destroys lives and damages psyches for a lifetime: not abusive parenting over many years, but an arguably rude two-minute phone conversation with a complete stranger, over which the caller has complete control, and can hang up at any time.
I've avoided insults in this email...
Martin: If there are any insults, the more offensive and hurtful the better, that I have failed to inflict upon you in answering this email, the oversight was unintentional. I invite our readers to make up the deficit.
Tracie: I'm guessing because you used them all up in your prior lunatic rants. But what you held back in insult, you made up for in inanity.
...to lay out in specific language exactly why I have a problem with hosts on your show verbally abusing callers.
Tracie: I think your complaint is unmerited, for reasons expressed above.
Martin: Good job replacing "self-righteous dishonest bullshit" with "unmerited" there, Tracie. Sounds much more polite and civil. Goodness knows we wouldn't want Gav to go running off in tears or anything.
It is immoral.
Tracie: No, you're saying that, but you haven't demonstrated it. People need to take some personal, adult responsibility at some point in their lives and stop blaming others for how they feel and react.
Martin: And by "people," we mean "Gavin."
Tracie: If you go fetal and require 20 years of group therapy because an Internet show host called you "ridiculous," I think your problems existed before you called our show.
Martin: You think?
It hurts people more than you likely realize.
Tracie: Only immature, codependent "adults" who like to saddle others with their emotional responses and needs. If it were small children, who aren't fully emotionally developed, calling us, you might have a point.
Martin: I think Gavin has pulled off the remarkable feat of belonging to both those categories.
Sure, it gets a few laughs from the less-mature people amidst your viewers... but some of us take offense to it
Martin: Because Gavin is, of course, one of our more mature viewers...LOLOCAUST!
Tracie: And I should care, why? Some viewers aren't immature, and don't see a problem with it, and aren't just giggling over it.
...and rightly so.
Tracie: Says you.
Martin: And you are more worthy of being taken seriously than any other tone troll how, again?
All else aside, you're supposed to be mature adults conducting a discussion program.
Martin: No! You can't make me!
Tracie: Says the guy who can't even take responsibility for himself and his emotional reactions, the guy who wrote a list of immature idiotic libelous garbage to a group of strangers on the Internet. Yes, you're the poster boy for judging "maturity." If I, or anyone, go fetal because I am called "idiot," that's not the problem of the person who assessed and described me as an idiot. I need to work out my own some self-esteem issues. But I can't expect others to live their lives walking on egg shells, worried that every person they meet is a fragile, emotional basket case. People deserve more credit than that.
You ask people to call in.
Tracie: And if they want to, they do.
You invite them to contact you,
Tracie: Yes,and they know what the score is when they call.
Martin: Is this pitiful stupid boy somehow equating "invite" with "force"?
...only to abuse them in many cases.
Tracie: I call Shenanigans. If you call in and are unreasonable, and you're called "unreasonable" (or some facsimile thereof), that's no more "abuse" than calling a red-head a red-head. I've said it 1,000 times, and here is 1,001: If you don't want to be called "stupid," the best way to avoid it is to not make stupid comments to us on the phone. Being stupid, and then getting angry when you are described as "stupid," is...well...stupid.
Martin: Really, we only pile on the abuse when it is earned. Take you, for instance...
That isn't illegal, but is it morally acceptable?
Martin: I can honestly say that there is coliform bacteria slaloming around my toilet bowl that gives more of a shit (see what I did there?) about what you think is "morally acceptable" than I do. And you lost your right to take any kind of moral high ground on any subject about 10 emails ago. Tone trolling from such a contemptible and dishonest hypocrite is only good for a laugh, or a sneer of disgust.
Tracie: It's not morally anything. Comparing an AETV host who says to an anonymous caller after a couple minutes "you're being an idiot" to people damaging their kids using verbal abuse on a forming, immature mind...is just...well...stupid, again.
Even further, do you think such behavior paints you as a respectable organization?
Martin: We have 14 years of establishing ourselves as a respectable organization, and have achieved global acclaim thereby. Matt has engaged in public debates with clergymen. Some of the rest of us have represented ACA in both formal and informal capacities, and met with uniformly friendly responses. We get several emails a week from viewers who thank us for helping with their personal crises of belief and conviction, for helping them deal with religious family members in ways that don't alienate them from their families altogether, or just to say thanks for all we do. So, we're not worried about being perceived as a respectable organization, because we know we are. And it's because — pay attention to this point closely — the overwhelming majority of our viewers are not emotionally stunted adolescent hysterics who hear the occasional rude word on our TV show, and get their panties so bunched that they feel sufficiently justified to bombard us with repeated baseless legal threats, risible bragging about "exposing" us in a "documentary," and vile insults about people's fianceés that are so far beyond the pale of decency that any possible chance of recovering any level of respect for yourself is beyond hope. In other words, total pieces of shit like you, Gavin, are a thankfully rare breed, and I hope you live up to your promise now that this email has been posted and fuck. off. forever.
Couldn't that behavior actually discourage some people from joining your organization or watching future episodes of the show?
Tracie:Possibly...but on the other hand lots of people like the show for the same reasons you're complaining about it. Changing the game to gain viewers at the potential cost of losing those who enjoy the current format would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, to borrow a Bible metaphor. This is your view, your opinion. Others disagree and write in to praise the very behavior that apparently upsets you.
Martin: It is my sincerest hope that you have been dissuaded from all of those things, and from contacting us again in any form, and perhaps even from living anywhere on Earth other than a small rocky desert island where no one has to remember you exist. But I'll take the first two in a pinch.
Many times, the harsh treatment of a caller might be somewhat justified, if they begin yelling, swearing, or being disrespectful.
Tracie: I don't see how that works. If I think yelling and swearing are wrong, I don't see how it is suddenly justified with "two wrongs make a right"? That's unreasonable. It isn't like throwing punches, where I might actually have to be violent in response to violence for self-defense. Screaming at someone screaming at me has no benefit, is not required for self-preservation, and therefore has no "justification." But it does demonstrate the immature framework you're operating within.
Martin: Hold on, you mean, suddenly, now, Gavin is twigging to the very basic point that sometimes, it's the caller who's rude, and that it may happen that we treat them rudely in return? Which is what we've been explaining all along? Christ, I knew he was slow, but seriously. Still, Tracie's right. If a call is descending to the level of a screaming match, it's easier to just hang up.
But often enough, you begin yelling or insulting even when the caller has been totally calm, collected, and respectful the whole time.
Tracie: Really? You used Jeff's responses to callers regarding Hell as an example in prior notes. Is threatening someone calmly with "hell" moral? Is it kind? Is it "respectful"? Calling you human garbage that deserves to be tortured forever, is fine, if you don't yell it? I disagree.
You paint me as a fool,
Martin: Oh no, I paint you as much worse. And I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Tracie: No, you paint yourself as a fool. We just publicized it, because you said you were going to publicize it anyway, yourself.
and I partially deserve it,
Tracie: You own all your own words, fully, not partially. Other people control none of them.
Martin: Yes, like all moral hypocrites, you'll use a scorched-earth policy of utter condemnation against others, while cutting yourself plenty of slack. Have you considered a career at Fox News?
but I do have a mature message underneath all the BS.
Tracie: And when you get done defending childish codependency, I look forward to hearing to this more "mature message."
Martin: Because from our vantage point, we see BS underneath, and on top of, all the other BS.
My message is: With your show, you have a tremendous opportunity to open hearts and minds to the fallacies of religion.
Martin: Man, and here I thought we were a cooking show.
Tracie: Oh, that I know. I know because we get mail daily from people telling us we've helped them with exactly that.
Martin: Just from the last couple of days:
Don't know if this show is still on in the US, but I think it's great! It's
so rare to see people who have really thought about the whole god think. I'm
in Australia so I can only watch on Youtube..Thanks a lot for your time..Cheers, Peter C.I don't make much right now in terms of income, but no doubt when I get my proverbial shit together I will be donating. You guys have changed my life in a way that seriously brings tears to my eyes. I hope you can continue to spread the real good news haha. I haven't gotten to call in but I will next week. Thank you so much...you'll never TOTALLY understand just how much you've helped me. (Jonathan Haggerty)
Please know that you are some of the most moral and virtuous people I've ever known, and also know that I'm not one to make bold statements like that disingenuously. Not only do you, unlike most, make moral behavior a top priority, you use reason to answer the tough moral questions that many others would prefer just to dismiss and ignore. You pursue truth, you deeply value intellectual honesty, you're willing to admit when you don't know something and also willing to admit when you were wrong, and you give me hope for the future and inspire me to pursue morality and virtue as you do. As disheartened as you surely must become from time to time when you see all that goes on around you, please never forget that your efforts are not in vain. You are heroes to many of us, and I thank you enormously for your service to humanity--you are champions of all the things that are most valuable in this world. (Logan Vanover)
In many ways, you squander that opportunity by resorting to insults, name calling, ridiculing callers or swearing at them, etc.
Tracie: And yet, we get mail from people saying we've helped them. Is it possible that some people respond to seeing stupidity called out openly and honestly, and other people prefer a less direct approach? This is why we have different personalities presenting on AETV, by the way. Different strokes and all. Let me assure you we do reach people. And if you think you'd rather see people reached in a different format, which is the same every time, may I suggest that rather than threaten to spend your time making documentaries to slander Internet strangers, you put your unique talents to work making your own show using your real name and location — like we do at AETV. Then you can do it how YOU prefer.
Atheists are supposed to be intelligent and mature, aren't we?
Martin: It would be nice to think so, which makes your situation all the more tragic.
Tracie: I looked up "atheist" in the dictionary, and it says nothing of the kind. So, I don't know where you got that these are atheist attributes.
When you exhibit certain behaviors on the show, you appear immature, sometimes petty even.
Martin: And you have frankly lost any chance that I would have any respect for or interest in your opinion of my behavior or anyone else's, since your own has been unforgivable.
Tracie: Your opinion. You're entitled to it. Others disagree and write to tell us the opposite of what you're saying.
You have a responsibility to your viewers that I believe you take too lightly, or not at all.
Martin: And what you believe is both provably wrong, as it's taken from a gross misrepresentation of how we actually conduct the show, and immaterial, as you've demonstrated yourself and your opinions to be unworthy of respect. Really, you could have handled all this so much better.
Tracie: And other viewers, again, disagree with you. So why should we disregard their input and go only with yours?
People aren't just calling in, unprompted. You are inviting them to call.
Tracie: Yes, we get that. And they make a decision to call or not. Are they going to say something stupid or not? It's up to them.
You state that you want productive discussion.
Tracie: Right: don't call up to talk about your beliefs and then say you've no intention of defending them. You'll be asked "why the fuck did you call, then?" Be prepared. Don't call up and say you think all humans are such scum they deserve to be tortured forever; you'll be told you're a dehumanizing, evil person. Be prepared. But even if you're not bright, if you try to be kind and honest, you'll get a good reception almost 100 percent of the time on AETV, I can promise you.
The way you frame everything when asking viewers to call in implies that some level of respect and decency will be observed during the conversation.
Martin: A concept you don't seem to grasp works both ways.
Tracie: And "some level" is. If your claim is that we are a free-for-all and exercise no judgment regarding who gets what sort of response, I beg to differ. We're not perfect, and mistakes are made, but for the most part, we talk to people who are interested in talking openly and honestly, and who can reason, and we drop those who can't. And those who are dishonest or disrespectful (and bringing up hell IS disrespectful) get a boot out the door on occasion, it's true.
When you begin angrily swearing and insulting people, you have contradicted the implications you made when you asked people to call in.
Martin: Oh, you mean like when I call you a miserable piece of shit fucktool and cordially invite you to go blow a charging buffalo? Yeah, I guess, but sometimes it just feels so right.
Tracie: Unless you can show me where someone was honest and reasonable and respectful and a host just went ballistic on him/her, I beg to differ. Again, "calmly" telling Jeff he's utterly vile is hardly "respectful."
You don't only do this with theists, though. Occasionally you also belittle and denigrate a non believer.
Tracie: That's because we're equal-opportunity when a caller is an idiot. We're examining their beliefs and ideas and reasons. If they suck, they suck. We're not trying to be biased against theists with regard to being stupid. Any idiot who calls, and insists on being an idiot, can expect to be branded an idiot. If they're not called out for it, they've had a lucky call.
Martin: Indeed, it would be the nadir of hypocrisy for us to let atheists (like Charlie the Homophobe) get a pass saying stupid and contemptible things while excoriating theists for it. We don't do that.
Surely you can see how that kind of behavior can be counterproductive, and how it can potentially cast your organization in a bad light.
Martin: Except we don't engage in that behavior to the degree you're whining about, and we know already that our group is in anything but a bad light. So your concerns can be dismissed.
Tracie: What I see is that you think this. And you're not the only one who thinks this. But we get a lot more letters from viewers who enjoy the format than ones like yours, which are only very occasional (and almost always, as this one, defending their position by defending sick, codependent attitudes as something we should all bend over to accommodate.) I disagree with that attitude.
I also believe it discourages people (particularly believers) from calling in at all.
Tracie: And yet they call. And they write. And they post at our blog.
Martin: Yup, no decrease in any of that traffic. Even a little bit.
There are many people who might think about calling in, but decide not to once they observe you screaming and swearing at someone on the air.
Tracie: Only if they don't grasp what inspired the rant. And if they can't decipher that, then they're probably not reasonable. We're not psychotics at AETV. We use discernment. Even the most volatile hosts on their most angry days, still explain why they're ranting as they rant. If I can't pay attention to the substance, because I'm style-obsessed, then I shouldn't call AETV, because AETV wants substance. Style doesn't matter. As I said, calmly calling me "reprobate" as one threatens me with Hell is not "respectful," just because it's stylistically calm. The substance is still disgusting and vulgar. I'm not really impressed with the calm delivery.
Ask yourself, do you really think such behavior is going to get you more calls from believers, or fewer?
Tracie: I don't know...do you? If so, how? Again, I suggest you use your real name and location and start your own show doing it your way, and show us how it should be done. Prove your point. Test your assertion. If you think you can build a better mouse trap, nobody at AETV is stopping you.
Martin: Again, we didn't start this show last fucking week, assclown. (Oops, naughty Martin is swearing again! Doesn't he know how much that drives people away?) We've been doing it since 1997. And it has only gotten bigger, and bigger, and bigger. So unless you can show us we've been suffering some drastic drop-off of our viewership simply because Jeff calls some guy an idiot for threatening us with the imaginary wrath of an imaginary magic pixie in the sky, I see no reason to concern myself with this "crisis" that exists only in the swirling vortex of confusion between your ears.
This particular email lays out my concerns adequately. If you are truly interested in representing me honestly in your posts to facebook and the blog, I ask that you post this email as well, in a new and separate post.
Tracie: Done.
Martin: ...and dusted.
If you can do that much for me, you will never hear from me again.
Martin: Hope springs eternal.
Tracie: As the full text of your message was included above, I hope you are a man of your word. I expect no one at AETV to every hear from you again. And at this point, if you contact TAE, we have no obligation to reply, as you will have demonstrated that your commitment meant nothing and was simply a hollow, false promise.
I guess if you don't, I can only conclude that you want to spin things once again by leaving out the real message I've been trying to get across. This message is exactly what I've been trying to say all along.
Martin: (sarcastic look) Oh really? Then what, pray tell, were all the threats of lawsuits and exposés, libelous remarks about financial malfeasance, and unconscionable personal insults — all of which we reproduced in full without any alterations of any kind — in aid of? I fancy you think you were "teaching us a lesson" of some kind, when in fact you were literally demolishing your reputation online as thoroughly as any one human being could hope. Really, what would a prospective employer have to say about someone who comes so thoroughly unhinged over views that differ from his own? The degree to which you've damaged yourself in this whole series of exchanges is possibly considerable. But again, we didn't make you do it. Your own choices in life are what come back to haunt you.
Tracie: Good. Then you've made your statement publicly via AETV. I hope that satisfies you, as you said it would. Again, as I included your full text in this response, I now declare the right to ignore all your future letters, which you have promised not to write (but I doubt you'll hold to your word on that; call me a pessimist). And another EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION ATTEMPT FLAG: Your final attempt at such, again a sign of your codependent nature, is to play what is generally known as "chicken." Basically like a kid in a school yard saying "if you don't do X, you're chicken." Just to confirm, I didn't post your letter in order to avoid your assessment of me as someone who only wants to "spin" things. Frankly, you're an idiot, and I don't know who you are, wouldn't recognize you on a street in broad daylight. So you're literally nothing in my world. But, your stupidity merits a good calling out and a breakdown, a demonstration of how stupid is as stupid does. Also, I'm sick of your flood of ugly, pointless, vile garbage in the AETV in-box, and if posting this latest bit of trash will end your disturbed stream of consciousness insanity to AETV, as you promised it would (but we'll see if you abide by your own promises, right?), it's totally, totally worth it. I hope you will keep your word and never contact anyone at AETV again.
Martin: And though we heathen types don't often say this...Amen!


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