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Hey, kids. Yes, I'm back. Been back a few days in fact. And I'm finally ready to post again, so here's my first, in reply to a letter received responding to the conversation with Behe fan "Garry" on the last show I did with Matt. Our correspondent begins:
I am an undergraduate student at the University of Florida, and I am a friendly/open-minded agnostic theist. So with my introduction out of the way, here is my email:
In the Problem of Evil debate, skeptics and/or non-believers of God's existence formulate their argumentation as follows:
(1) If there were an all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful God, then (due to His unlimited knowledge and unlimited power) He would be able to prevent gratuitous/pointless evil and suffering that is not necessary for an adequately compensating good.
(2) Because God would have such a capability, and because He is supposedly all-good, he would act on that capability and prevent the gratuitous/pointless suffering and evil that is not necessary for an adequately compensating good.
(3) But, there is lots of evils and sufferings that occur in the world (which have not been prevented by the supposed all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good God), and much of it is not logically necessary for any adequately compensating good (and therefore seems to be gratuitous/pointless).
(4) Therefore, the conclusion is that there does not exist a God who is all-knowing, all-powerful, or all-good.
Now, many theists argue against the argument of 'The Problem of Evil' presented above by way of refuting premise (3) and saying that there is no evil that is gratuitous/pointless, and that all evil is logically necessary for adequately compensating goods. One of the ways in which they do this is by presenting 'The Contrast Response,' which basically says that if there were no evil in the world, we would not be aware of the good. God then allows evil to make us aware of goodness, since this awareness in itself is a good.
But, many skeptics and/or non-believers of God's existence do not accept 'The Contrast Response' because they claim that it is not necessarily the case that our minds work this way. Essentially, they believe that we would still be aware of goodness even if there were less (or even no) evil to contrast it. So they say that 'The Contrast Response' is logically invalid.
That being said, I am assuming that you (Matt and Martin) are not exceptions (and have the same point of contention in regards to 'The Contrast Response').
So if I am actually correct about my assumption and your point of contention and belief that our minds don't need contrasting things in order to be aware of (or recognize) non-contrasting things, why then (in episode # 660, which occurred on Sunday, 6/06/2010 and while responding to Garry from Manhattan, NY and his example of irreducibly complex systems) did you (Matt and Martin) flip the contrast response (which you do not accept as being valid in the problem of evil argument) around in order to claim (within the context of the argument of creationism) that in order to know if something was created, we have to first have an example of something that wasn't created to compare it with (or contrast it to)? To me, this seems like a logically fallacious contradiction???
Our correspondent is wrong in his assumption of where I stand on "The Contrast Response." I don't reject the notion that a knowledge of the difference between good and evil is a vital element of ascertaining one's moral positions. What I reject is the notion that an omnibenevolent God is necessary for such an understanding, especially one who would continue to allow gratuitous evils to occur long after the human race had well and truly understood those differences and had established laws to punish them. Why, in this day and age, would God allow (to use the most button-mashing of examples) the continued sexual abuse of children? Are there significant pockets of human civilization (apart from the Vatican) who still do not understand this is a deplorable act, and therefore, children must still be put through the anguish of sexual abuse in order to make those people aware of its evil, and of the goodness of not abusing children in contrast?
Another objection would be that, even if one accepts the notion of God's allowing acts of evil in the world for the sake of "compensating goods" (and I don't know that I accept the idea of non-victims of evil realizing how lucky they are to be a "compensating good"), this would still not absolve God of the moral responsibility to stop such acts of evil when he can. Honestly, in what way would God's refusal to prevent the sexual abuse of a child thereby presumably allowing us to experience the horror of the act so as to better appreciate it when children aren't raped constitute a better "compensating good" than for him simply to blast the assailant to smithereens with a well-aimed lightning bolt? Who would be sitting around thinking, "Gosh, I don't understand, why did God do that to that poor man?"
Why establish good and evil as concepts if not to enforce them? A common argument in theodicy is that God must allow evil for an understanding of good. But how are we mere mortals expected to reach such an understanding if God doesn't explain which is which and punish the evil when it happens? Instead, it seems we are meant to work it out for ourselves which are good and evil acts, as God apparently cannot interfere in the interests of not undermining our supposed free will.
The great irony of this form of theodicy is that it ends up rendering God irrelevant. Atheists and secular moralists do argue that we are the ones responsible for determining the differences between good and evil...but that we are perfectly capable of doing this by using our intellects and our empathy to evaluate the consequences of human actions, rejecting those which are destructive.
Any theodicy that proposes a God as the architect of moral precepts, only to immediately take Him out of the picture, leaving humanity to deal with good and evil on our own, pragmatic terms, might as well concede the argument and pack it in. A God who refuses to prevent gratuitous destructive acts for any reason is one who has, if He exists, surrendered His moral authority and is deserving of no thanks from us.
Additionally, even if I am wrong about my assumption [and you guys actually DO accept the contrast response as a good response to the problem of evil—or reject it for another reason that I have not presented above—(and therefore have not contradicted yourselves)], why do you even find the merit in asking a theist to provide an example of something that was not created, anyways? Essentially, asking a theist to provide an example of something that wasn't created is unfair, because if he/she is a common theist and believes that God exists, he/she also believes that EVERYTHING [including natural things] in our physical universe was created by Him (which would mean that to the theist there would be no example of an uncreated thing that he/she could provide, because no such example would exist).
As such, the theist's lack of ability to provide such an example does not prove (or even serve to insinuate) that there was no creator (or God). Moreover, it only further begs the question. So essentially, I think that asking Garry to provide such an example was an invalid (and therefore unnecessary) form of argumentation.
This is because, like Garry, you fail to understand that a key component of any scientific hypothesis which is what ID wants to be is falsifiability. In order to determine if your hypothesis is even valid in its basic premises, you have to be able to answer this question: "If what I am proposing is not true, what conditions would I expect to find existing today?" Therefore someone insisting that life was intelligently designed must be able to answer, "If life were not designed, what would it look like?" It's hardly unfair or invalid. It's basic science.
And yes, this question has been answered in regards to evolution, and very simply. When asked what he thought would falsify evolution, biologist J.B.S. Haldane answered simply, "Fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian." If anything in the fossil record were not where it was supposed to be in the timeline, this would be a problem. But it has not been a problem. Indeed, evolutionary theory has been validated many times in its predictive power, another important factor establishing scientific validity. Tiktaalik was found right where paleontologists were sure a certain transitional fossil of its type would have to be found if it existed at all.
If insisting that Garry state the way in which ID or any other design hypothesis was falsifiable was "unfair," it can only be in the way a scientifically illiterate fellow set himself up to be humiliated in his ignorance on live television. But that's hardly our fault. If some creationist calls us, trying to peddle an inferior product, and proceeds to lecture authoritatively on a subject about which he is in fact ignorant, a little humiliation is the least he has coming.


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The Small All Purpose Label is a stylish label that is easy to apply and will help you make sure that all your belongings make it home each day. Never lose another jacket, hoodie, bottle, cup, or utensil again.
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Yes they are! All of our labels are are waterproof, dishwasher safe, laundry safe and microwave safe, unless specifically stated on the product page. However, we highly recommend our lamination option for labels that will be exposed to a lot of abrasion, repeated washing, strong detergents, sunscreens, and other chemicals.
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Not to worry! The preview will not be the final product. One of our Label Daddy experts will be sure to adjust any of the information that you want to have placed on your label. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact us to let us know.
What do I do if my child's name won't fit on the label?
If you are having trouble fitting the entire name on the labels, then please contact us to let us know. We will require the correct spelling of the name and the order number of your recent purchase. Your labels will certainly include the entire name, even if it doesn't fit on our website.
Please note that long names on small labels may require small text that can be difficult to read in some instances. If there are any concerns please be sure to contact us to make sure we can make your labels look great.
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In these types of situations, we highly recommend having your label order laminated. The lamination provides a smooth surface that should not irritate skin. While we can't say with 100% certainty that our labels will not irritate anyone's skin, we feel very confident in saying that skin irritation is not an issue that our customers have ever complained about. Your satisfaction is our number one priority, so please feel free to contact us with any concerns.
How should I apply my labels to my belongings?
Label Daddy labels should always be applied by an adult or under adult supervision. To make sure that your labels will work as expected, it's important that you order the correct size label for your application. Every label page on our website gives you details about the specific label and what you can use that label on. For best results, our clothing labels should be applied to a garment's care tag. If no care tag is present, apply the label to a garment's brand imprint (the stamped area where a company will provide their logo or care information). We do not recommend applying the labels directly to fabric, as it may not have a strong enough surface for the adhesive to bond to.
Our labels like pressure, so don't be afraid to really give them a good going over with your thumb, or a good squeeze between your thumb and fingers. Another trick to help your labels stick - after applying labels to clothing items, throw them in the dryer for a few minutes, and then go over the labels one more time while they are still warm. Make sure to give them 24 hours before putting them in the washing machine.
For hard goods, just stick them to a clean, dry surface and work any bubbles you find, out to the edges with your thumb.
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Last Updated: May 30, 2018
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About DP & Company
The BeginningDP & Company, INC began as a wholesale source for tools and general merchandise in Central Florida. Located just down the road from two major flea markets, DP & Company quickly became the favorite business for vendors in the area to purchase goods for resale. Founded by the late Dick Powers, DP & Company has always been focused on providing the best possible customer service while keeping prices as low as possible. A New EraIn 2002, Dave Eddy purchased DP & Company from Mr. Powers, and took on the role as President of the corporation. Dave, along with his son Brett (Vice President of DP & Company), immediately began expanding the inventory and product offerings of DP & Company. With these expanded offerings, word got out about DP & Company being the one stop shop for resellers looking to make maximum profits. Major new categories included the addition of Airsoft Guns, Knives & Swords, and Novelty Tin Signs. In 2008, DP & Company looked to expand its business online and offer its low prices nationwide. Thus began www.DPCIwholesale.com. Over the recent years, the online face and presence of DP & Company has changed with the inclusion of a Drop Shipping website operating under www.DropForYou.com. A Promise of QualityWhile many things have changed, one thing still remains the same: DP & Company is dedicated to giving their customers the best possible service and prices. Quality of service is something that is easily overlooked when dealing wholesale, but we take pride in helping our customers achieve the most from their businesses. |


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- Artist Name: Artist Group
- Medium: Acrylic on Canvas
- Size: 30.00 Inch X 36.00 Inch
- Year: 2013
- Status: In Stock
- Authentic: ORIGINAL ARTWORK BY ARTIST
- Product Code: BART245205
- Price: 48900 | 585 $
Modern And Contemporary Indian Art - Price Negotiable!
Why do people buy art?
People buy art because it makes their lives and themselves more interesting. People have a deep need to enrich their lives, to have interesting things to talk about with others. We need stories in our lives because stories make our own story more interesting and more fun. We need to have something to say. Art is art and it's of enormous social and cultural value. Disposable pop culture, by contrast, has nothing to do with art. Simply because human beings need to have interesting and remarkable things in their lives. And that need is so deeply rooted, that for some people even will do. Most people would answer along the lines of status appeal; or cultural appreciation; or aesthetic awareness and so on. Valid reasons. Then there's the more utilitarian type of motivation to buy art: The need to liven up a street or a room; or a need to provide a visual and emotional breath of fresh air for employees. Maybe simply something to make your house more beautiful or fill that space under the staircase. But all those reasons are sort of secondary. Behind all those, here is one central, umbrella-type reason, and it's a psychological thing that's deeply engraved in our subconscious. Has been since ancient times. They do share one thing though: They are both incredibly popular, each with their audience. Now before you think I consider art comparable to in any way: I don't.


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How To Write An Obituary
A simple checklist for making sure your obituary honors and informs.
When a loved one has passed away, writing an obituary that honors their life can seem overwhelming. Don't worry - your obituary will honor their life simply by the act of you writing it. You want to celebrate your loved one's life and offer happy or enjoyable memories. You are helping to ease the pain of others simply by telling a story about your loved one.
We hope that this checklist will take the stress and pressure off of you and allow you to honor your loved one simply. Remember, your funeral arranger is an experienced professional, and he/she is a valuable resource for writing the obituary.
1. Include all the basic details about the person's life.
You don't have to include all of this information, but here are the basics that are often included in an obituary. Choose the elements that are most relevant to your loved one:
- Age
- Any familial survivors
- Education
- Vocation
- When the person retired, if relevant
- Any military affiliations
- Any volunteer affiliations
2. Include funeral information.
Family and friends often rely on an obituary for information on when and where a person's life will be celebrated, so your obituary will make it very simple for them to get that information (and will save you the hassle of having to answer lots of questions at a time when you would prefer not to be bothered with small details). You can include:
- Date and time of the funeral
- Place the funeral is being held
- Any viewing details
- Requests for donations in lieu of flowers
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Everything you need to know about funeral and cemeteries.
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Local Resources
Local resources for all your support and planning needs.


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Property Type | Vacant Land |
Parcel # | 0109100013 |
County | Livingston |
THE ACCURACY OF ALL INFORMATION, REGARDLESS OF SOURCE, IS NOT GUARANTEED OR WARRANTED. ALL INFORMATION SHOULD BE INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED. Listings last updated: Thursday, July 25, 2024. Some properties that appear for sale on this web site may subsequently have been sold and may no longer be available. The data relating to real estate for sale on this web site appears in part from the IDX programs of our Multiple Listing Service. Real Estate listings held by brokerage firms other than Real Estate One include the name and address of the listing broker where available.
IDX information is provided exclusively for consumers personal, non-commercial use and may not be used for any purpose other than to identify prospective properties consumers may be interested in purchasing.


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Beyond the Classroom
Beyond the Classroom showcases the talents of area K-12 teachers through artworks they have created outside the classroom. These artworks, which range in material, technique and style, show us how impactful it can be for teachers to be practicing artists themselves. Through the process of art-making, these teachers become even greater role models for their students as they demonstrate first-hand the power of imagination and creativity. President Barack Obama stated: "The future belongs to young people with an education and the imagination to create." It is the teachers represented in this exhibition that provide young people with tools for the future—creativity, problem solving skills, imagination,and much more. We congratulate and thank our teacher artists of Beyond the Classroom, and hope that by viewing their achievements, you are inspired to welcome more creativity into your life.
This exhibtion is on view June 8-September 1, 2013
Sponsored by Hubbell Waterman Foundation and Brand Boeshaar Foundation
image: M. Sue Sawvel, Cheri, 2009, acrylic on canavas.


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At Khoobsurat, we understand the precision and expertise required for party makeup application, and we are here to ensure that you achieve a stunning, long-lasting look that complements your unique features in Janakpuri. As an experienced and Best Party Makeup Artist in Janakpuri, we are dedicated to the art of enhancing your natural beauty using advanced party makeup techniques. Party makeup offers a flawless finish, perfect for special occasions, photoshoots, or any event where you want to look your absolute best in Janakpuri.
Party makeup is renowned for its ability to create a smooth and even complexion while offering exceptional staying power in Janakpuri. At our salon, we provide top-notch Party Makeup in Janakpuri, tailored to your specific needs. Whether it's for any kind of party, our goal is to make you look and feel incredible in Janakpuri. With party makeup, you can expect a lightweight, natural feel that provides impeccable coverage, and we are here to make your beauty dreams come true in Janakpuri. At our salon, where we strive for perfection and artistic expression in Janakpuri you will have the opportunity to experience the enchantment of party makeup.


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Transparent Crystal Clear Brick Bag |Festival Crossbody Sidekick Sling
Transparent Crystal Clear Brick Bag |Festival Crossbody Sidekick Sling
In order to keep shipping costs low for our customers, and to keep packaging material from being wasted, we try to save money on product packaging where we can. When you place an order, you may get boxes and/or packing material that is recycled and reused. It may not be pretty, but it's more cost effective, and more resourceful.
Most graphic tees are made to order, and I have several different artists who make the designs, and who ship directly to you to save on shipping time. Because of this, you may receive several different packages - Example: You order two graphic tees, but each are made by a different artist. You will receive two separate packages with each shirt AT MY COST :). I will also update each tracking number within the order, so you will know when each one will arrive. If you enter your email at checkout, those tracking numbers will be sent to that email on file.
As for shoes, I have limited space in my home, so shoes I keep at a separate warehouse. They will ship directly from the warehouse, as well. Anything shipped from my home will go out same or next business day, holidays and Sundays excluded. Shoes and graphics may take a few days, depending on shipping you select at checkout.
Return policy
Return policy
Our number-one policy at Sagebrush Annie's Boutique L L C is to have great customer service and happy customers. We understand life happens, and/or items ordered online don't fit. Please understand Our policy below for easy returns so we can provide the best possible customer service.
If you're returning shoes, the shoe box may not be used as the sole shipping container; the box must be placed in another box or poly mailer as the shoe box is considered a part of the product. If your item is returned to us for any of the following reasons: (insufficient address, unable to forward, incorrect address, incorrectly entering your shipping address, or otherwise undeliverable) the customer is responsible for the cost of reshipping the item back to you.
No returns on sale items, jewelry, slab phone grips, or buckles; these are considered a final sale. Any items/orders that are canceled will be issued an in-store credit in the form of a gift card sent to the email on file; we do not issue credit back to the form of payment.


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Bunny/Spot Vests x2
Primark & Tu
Brand: George
Size: 0-3 months
- Graded: (A) Good Used Condition .
- Royal Mail 24 hr or 48 hr Delivery | Free Same Day Local Delivery
We understand that buying pre-loved can be a bit daunting, not knowing if the item is going to be the same standard as you would normally wear.
Every item that we sell is thoroughly laundered and checked prior to being made available for purchase. Additionally, we give each piece a grading, which is clearly displayed both online and in-store.
B - Signs of Wear - See Description
For Example - These items may show signs of washwear such as bobbling.
A - Good Used Condition
For Example - These items will be free from signs of washwear but are not in 'new' condition.
A+ - Like New, without original Tags
For Example - These items are in a very good condition, like new, without signs of washwear but are missing their original tags.
New - As New with original Tags
For Example - As you would expect to purchase direct from brand, these items are new with their original tags and have not been worn.


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Chapter 48
Amalickiah incites the Lamanites against the Nephites—Moroni prepares his people to defend the cause of the Christians—He rejoices in liberty and freedom and is a mighty man of God. About 72 B.C.
1 And now it came to pass that, as soon as Amalickiah had obtained the kingdom he began to inspire the hearts of the Lamanites against the people of Nephi; yea, he did appoint men to speak unto the Lamanites from their towers, against the Nephites.
2 And thus he did inspire their hearts against the Nephites, insomuch that in the latter end of the nineteenth year of the reign of the judges, he having accomplished his designs thus far, yea, having been made king over the Lamanites, he sought also to reign over all the land, yea, and all the people who were in the land, the Nephites as well as the Lamanites.
3 Therefore he had accomplished his design, for he had hardened the hearts of the Lamanites and blinded their minds, and stirred them up to anger, insomuch that he had gathered together a numerous host to go to battle against the Nephites.
4 For he was determined, because of the greatness of the number of his people, to overpower the Nephites and to bring them into bondage.
5 And thus he did appoint chief captains of the Zoramites, they being the most acquainted with the strength of the Nephites, and their places of resort, and the weakest parts of their cities; therefore he appointed them to be chief captains over his armies.
6 And it came to pass that they took their camp, and moved forth toward the land of Zarahemla in the wilderness.
7 Now it came to pass that while Amalickiah had thus been obtaining power by fraud and deceit, Moroni, on the other hand, had been preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.
8 Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.
9 And in their weakest fortifications he did place the greater number of men; and thus he did fortify and strengthen the land which was possessed by the Nephites.
10 And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians.
11 And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;
12 Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.
13 Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.
14 Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.
15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;
16 And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.
17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.
18 Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God.
19 Now behold, Helaman and his brethren were no less serviceable unto the people than was Moroni; for they did preach the word of God, and they did baptize unto repentance all men whosoever would hearken unto their words.
20 And thus they went forth, and the people did humble themselves because of their words, insomuch that they were highly favored of the Lord, and thus they were free from wars and contentions among themselves, yea, even for the space of four years.
21 But, as I have said, in the latter end of the nineteenth year, yea, notwithstanding their peace amongst themselves, they were compelled reluctantly to contend with their brethren, the Lamanites.
22 Yea, and in fine, their wars never did cease for the space of many years with the Lamanites, notwithstanding their much reluctance.
23 Now, they were sorry to take up arms against the Lamanites, because they did not delight in the shedding of blood; yea, and this was not all—they were sorry to be the means of sending so many of their brethren out of this world into an eternal world, unprepared to meet their God.
24 Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives, that their wives and their children should be massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those who were once their brethren, yea, and had dissented from their church, and had left them and had gone to destroy them by joining the Lamanites.
25 Yea, they could not bear that their brethren should rejoice over the blood of the Nephites, so long as there were any who should keep the commandments of God, for the promise of the Lord was, if they should keep his commandments they should prosper in the land.


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New UN report warns humans more vulnerable than ever to effects of climate change
If the world doesn't cut pollution of heat-trapping gases, the already noticeable harms of global warming could spiral "out of control," the head of a United Nations scientific panel warned Monday. And he's not alone. The Obama White House says it is taking this new report as a call for action, with Secretary of State John Kerry saying "the costs of inaction are catastrophic." Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that issued the 32-volume, 2,610-page report here early Monday, told The Associated Press: "it is a call for action." Without reductions in emissions, he said, impacts from warming "could get out of control." One of the study's authors, Maarten van Aalst, a top official at the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, said, "If we don't reduce greenhouse gases soon, risks will get out of hand. And the risks have already risen." Twenty-first century disasters such as killer heat waves in Europe, wildfires in the United States, droughts in Australia and deadly flooding in Mozambique, Thailand and Pakistan highlight how vulnerable humanity is to extreme weather, according to the report from the Nobel Prize-winning group of scientists. The dangers are going to worsen as the climate changes even more, the report's authors said. "We're now in an era where climate change isn't some kind of future hypothetical," said the overall lead author of the report, Chris Field of the Carnegie Institution for Science in California. "We live in an area where impacts from climate change are already widespread and consequential." Nobody is immune, Pachauri and other scientists said. "We're all sitting ducks," Princeton University professor Michael Oppenheimer, one of the main authors of the report, said in an interview. After several days of late-night wrangling, more than 100 governments unanimously approved the scientist-written 49-page summary -- which is aimed at world political leaders. The summary mentions the word "risk" an average of about 5 1/2 times per page. "Changes are occurring rapidly and they are sort of building up that risk," Field said. These risks are both big and small, according to the report. They are now and in the future. They hit farmers and big cities. Some places will have too much water, some not enough, including drinking water. Other risks mentioned in the report involve the price and availability of food, and to a lesser and more qualified extent some diseases, financial costs and even world peace. "Things are worse than we had predicted" in 2007, when the group of scientists last issued this type of report, said report co-author Saleemul Huq, director of the International Centre for Climate Change and Development at the Independent University in Bangladesh. "We are going to see more and more impacts, faster and sooner than we had anticipated." The problems have gotten so bad that the panel had to add a new and dangerous level of risks. In 2007, the biggest risk level in one key summary graphic was "high" and colored blazing red. The latest report adds a new level, "very high," and colors it deep purple. You might as well call it a "horrible" risk level, said van Aalst: "The horrible is something quite likely, and we won't be able to do anything about it." The report predicts that the highest level of risk would first hit plants and animals, both on land and the acidifying oceans. Climate change will worsen problems that society already has, such as poverty, sickness, violence and refugees, according to the report. And on the other end, it will act as a brake slowing down the benefits of a modernizing society, such as regular economic growth and more efficient crop production, it says. "In recent decades, changes in climate have caused impacts on natural and human systems on all continents and across the oceans," the report says. And if society doesn't change, the future looks even worse, it says: "Increasing magnitudes of warming increase the likelihood of severe, pervasive, and irreversible impacts." While the problems from global warming will hit everyone in some way, the magnitude of the harm won't be equal, coming down harder on people who can least afford it, the report says. It will increase the gaps between the rich and poor, healthy and sick, young and old, and men and women, van Aalst said. But the report's authors say this is not a modern day version of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Much of what they warn of are more nuanced troubles that grow by degrees and worsen other societal ills. The report also concedes that there are uncertainties in understanding and predicting future climate risks. The report, the fifth on warming's impacts, includes risks to the ecosystems of the Earth, including a thawing Arctic, but it is far more oriented to what it means to people than past versions. The report also notes that one major area of risk is that with increased warming, incredibly dramatic but ultra-rare single major climate events, sometimes called tipping points, become more possible with huge consequences for the globe. These are events like the melting of the Greenland ice sheet, which would take more than 1,000 years. "I can't think of a better word for what it means to society than the word `risk,"' said Virginia Burkett of the U.S. Geological Survey, one of the study's main authors. She calls global warming "maybe one of the greatest known risks we face." Global warming is triggered by heat-trapping gases, such as carbon dioxide, that stay in the atmosphere for a century. Much of the gases still in the air and trapping heat came from the United States and other industrial nations. China is now by far the No. 1 carbon dioxide polluter, followed by the United States and India. Unlike in past reports, where the scientists tried to limit examples of extremes to disasters that computer simulations can attribute partly to man-made warming, this version broadens what it looks at because it includes the larger issues of risk and vulnerability, van Aalst said. Freaky storms like 2013's Typhoon Haiyan, 2012's Superstorm Sandy and 2008's ultra-deadly Cyclone Nargis may not have been caused by warming, but their fatal storm surges were augmented by climate change's ever rising seas, he said. And in the cases of the big storms like Haiyan, Sandy and Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the poor were the most vulnerable, Oppenheimer and van Aalst said. The report talks about climate change helping create new pockets of poverty and "hotspots of hunger" even in richer countries, increasing inequality between rich and poor. Report co-author Maggie Opondo of the University of Nairobi said that especially in places like Africa, climate change and extreme events mean "people are going to become more vulnerable to sinking deeper into poverty." And other study authors talked about the fairness issue with climate change. "Rich people benefit from using all these fossil fuels," University of Sussex economist Richard Tol said. "Poorer people lose out." Huq said he had hope because richer nations and people are being hit more, and "when it hits the rich, then it's a problem" and people start acting on it. Part of the report talks about what can be done: reducing carbon pollution and adapting to and preparing for changing climates with smarter development. The report echoes an earlier U.N. climate science panel that said if greenhouse gases continue to rise, the world is looking at another about 6 or 7 degrees Fahrenheit (3.5 or 4 degrees Celsius) of warming by 2100 instead of the international goal of not allowing temperatures to rise more than 2 degrees Fahrenheit (1.2 degrees Celsius). The difference between those two outcomes, Princeton's Oppenheimer said, "is the difference between driving on an icy road at 30 mph versus 90 mph. It's risky at 30, but deadly at 90." Tol, who is in the minority of experts here, had his name removed from the summary because he found it "too alarmist," harping too much on risk. But the panel vice chairman, Jean-Pascal van Ypersele, said that's not quite right: "We are pointing for reasons for alarm ... It's because the facts and the science and the data show that there are reasons to be alarmed. It's not because we're alarmist." The report is based on more than 12,000 peer reviewed scientific studies. Michel Jarraud, secretary general of the World Meteorological Organization, a co-sponsor of the climate panel, said this report was "the most solid evidence you can get in any scientific discipline." Michael Mann, a climate scientist at Pennsylvania State University who wasn't part of this report, said he found the report "very conservative" because it is based on only peer reviewed studies and has to be approved unanimously. There is still time to adapt to some of the coming changes and reduce heat-trapping emissions, so it's not all bad, said study co-author Patricia Romero-Lankao of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Colorado. "We have a closing window of opportunity," she said. "We do have choices. We need to act now."


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This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan, in Washington. In many parts of the country, coal has been king for many years, but that's changing. Ten years ago, coal fired half the U.S. electrical power plants. Now that's about a third and dropping. As coal companies switch to cheaper and cleaner natural gas, some coal companies in the east are closing mines and laying off workers.
It's a different story out west, with a different customer. We ship massive amounts of Western coal to China. We get cleaner air and produce less greenhouse gas when we burn less coal, but the climate equation tips the other way when China burns more, and in places like West Virginia, Ohio and Kentucky, people feel their way of life is being threatened.
If you're involved in the coal industry, if you mine it or ship it or burn it, tell us what's changed, 800-989-8255. Email us, firstname.lastname@example.com. You can also join the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Later in the program to Moscow and the mystery of the acid attack on the artist director of the Bolshoi Ballet.
But we begin in Lexington, Kentucky, with Bill Bissett, who's president of the Kentucky Coal Association. Good to have you with us today.
BILL BISSETT: Good afternoon, Neal.
CONAN: And if you could point to one thing that's changed, what would that be?
BISSETT: Well, it's changed in two ways. I'm going to kind of divide your question in two coal fields, if I could, and our eastern is exactly, the Appalachian Coal Basin, what you're talking about. We're seeing a loss of production, a loss of jobs and literally people hurting when you look at eastern Kentucky and also in my home state of West Virginia.
Conversely, you look at our western coal field, which is Illinois Coal Basin, it's booming. It's doing very well. It's a higher sulfur coal, but right now especially domestic use of that coal, as well as some international, are on the increase. So we're kind of - Kentucky's kind of caught between that very economic dynamic you were just discussing.
CONAN: And are you seeing people move from eastern Kentucky, where the mines are deeper, and the coal's a little harder to get to, better coal, but are they moving out to the west?
BISSETT: They are in some cases. It's important to remember that a lot of folks in Appalachia are third- and fourth-generation. They don't want to leave, you know, family who are there, and that's basically where they've lived most of their lives. So there's a resistance to that movement, although in some cases economically they have to.
But where coal very much is the dominant employer in that area, it doesn't just affect the coal mines, it affects all the support industries and everything from restaurants to car dealerships to really the entire community is affected. When coal declines, that community declines.
CONAN: And the coal in the western part of the state, as you say, higher sulfur content. Is that being burned in power plants here in this country?
BISSETT: It is, but with a lot of the technology we have now, with scrubbers and other ways to retrofit existing coal plants, you're able to use that now. So the competitive advantage of low-sulfur eastern coal is no longer the same in the market. And that's been a real game-changer for our east and west coal fields.
CONAN: Even so, that coal in the western part of your state has less kick, fewer BTUs per ton, than the harder coal or indeed than the natural gas.
BISSETT: Absolutely, but again when we had that period of time where it wasn't used as much, you have more attractive coal reserves that can be mined more easily, more cost effectively, and that allows them to compete in the marketplace in a better way, especially against very low-cost natural gas.
CONAN: So are you seeing competition from natural gas? How is that changing your environment there in Kentucky?
BISSETT: We absolutely are, especially when you look at the utilities we sell primarily most of our coal to. Right now natural gas is very low in cost, about $3, and while we expect that to increase for a number of reasons. One is overseas rates for natural gas are very high, $10, $14, $18 even in some cases. We think that will go up, but the question of when that cost will increase, that will have an effect not only with the utilities but also the people that pay for electricity.
CONAN: And as you say, the knock-on effects, well, throughout a community but also through industries like shipping, barge traffic, things like that are all affected.
BISSETT: It even affects population centers like Lexington and Louisville, were there's lawyers, engineers, accountants. It has a real ripple effect. Interestingly, earlier this morning I got a call from a son of a coal truck driver who's been out of work since November wanting help submitting an application to scholarships.
So really it's having an effect in higher education, in K-12, in so many different ways that my industry's been very connected to a lot of the altruism that helps eastern Kentucky.
CONAN: And as you look at the future of those two different areas, what do you see?
BISSETT: Well, I think west will continue to expand. I think you're going to see more of that. I think the big variable, which I think is important here, is what does the international market mean? I mean, although much like you said, Neal, the United States seems to be moving away from coal the rest of the world's going the other direction.
And when you look at a possible five billion tons consumed by China by 2030, they can't mine that much coal. So the three big questions we ask all the time are: How much coal can Kentucky mine; how can we mine it; but most importantly who will be the end user for that product?
CONAN: Well, joining us now is James Stevenson, the associate director of coal at the consulting firm IHS CERA, where he leads coal market analysis. He's on the line with us by Skype from Houston. Good of you to be with us today.
JAMES STEVENSON: My pleasure, Neal.
CONAN: And is our guest Bill Bissett right? Is that east-west divide in Kentucky, does that mirror the United States?
STEVENSON: I'm sorry, repeat that?
CONAN: Does that east-west divide in Kentucky where there are problems in the eastern part of the state, but the western part of the state - does that mirror the rest of the United States?
STEVENSON: Yeah, no it really does. And what we're seeing in general is a decline of eastern coal's full power generation. They're still fairly strong for steel-making, but a decline of eastern coal for power generation and a rise of Illinois Basin, as the other speaker mentioned, and also in the west, Powder Riven Basin, mined mostly in Wyoming is very cheap. And it's not a coal that currently has that same upside that we're seeing in the Illinois Basin, but it is very cheap to mine, and it'll be around for a very long time.
CONAN: And as those trends continue, is this going to develop into more and more of an export industry?
STEVENSON: I think it really has to. The question really then becomes, you know, do overseas countries need it. I think U.S. coal exports will remain strong. I think they'll be a little off the levels, the record levels that we saw last year. But they'll remain strong for some time. I don't know that there's a big sort of boom story there, though, but at the same time I don't really see them declining drastically.
CONAN: And how much of a role do federal regulations play? The EPA has already issued new regulations for new power plants. They're expected to shortly issue regulations for older power plants that could put coal in even more jeopardy.
STEVENSON: Yeah, that's right, and at IHS we're seeing a large amount of retirements, mostly to do with the mercury and air toxics rule that the EPA is bringing in mid this decade. And, you know, that predominately hits mostly Appalachian coal-burning units. So yeah, and it accentuates the decline.
CONAN: And Bill Bissett, when James Stevenson says retirements, he's talking about power plants switching from coal to natural gas or shutting down altogether.
BISSETT: In many cases shutting down altogether, and we're even seeing that with some power plants located literally within our coal field, which is very concerning when you have a large utility like AP saying that it economically cannot burn coal to create electricity within our own coal field. That's a serious concern.
And do we lay some of the blame of that to the administration, to the president? Absolutely. When they've enacted environmental rules that only affect eastern Kentucky and West Virginia and only the industry of coal mining, we feel very put upon, and that's one of the reasons we often sue them.
CONAN: We want to hear from those of you who work in the coal industry, one aspect or another. If you mine it or ship it or burn it, give us a call, tell us what's changed, 800-989-8255. Email us, email@example.com. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.
And James Stevenson, when you look at these retirements, is Mr. Bissett right? There was a lot of complaints during the last election by some in the coal industry, particularly in the eastern part of the United States, about a war on coal.
STEVENSON: Yeah, it's difficult to come at it exactly that way. A lot of the units that are being retired are older ones that were somewhat inefficient anyway. And - but certainly the ones that are being impacted are mostly eastern units that are central Appalachian burning. And now part of that is that, you know, unfortunately central Appalachian mines are more expensive than mines in other parts of the country, and that feeds, you know, the difficult economics that they face particularly in a climate of very cheap natural gas.
CONAN: Particularly in a climate of very cheap natural gas. As you look at those economics, Bill Bissett, how does that eastern coal, eastern Kentucky coal, West Virginia coal, Pennsylvania, Ohio, how does it compete?
BISSETT: Well, that's a serious concern, as Dr. Stevenson mentioned. I think you look at met coal, that will continue. We really don't have that in Kentucky the way they have it in West Virginia.
CONAN: Met coal, you mean metallurgic...
BISSETT: Metallurgical coal used to make steel, which internationally of course is, you know, can be in great demand. It has a bit of a slump recently. But really the concern for us is I think it's at three tiers here. There's a concern for Kentucky by the economics of coal production and coal usage and what it does for us as a commonwealth.
There's also kind of the national debate that's going on as the country seems to move from the administration away from coal. But internationally again we're seeing that trend of increased coal usage, and I think Dr. Stevenson's right. You know, you look at these older coal-fired facilities, they're being taken offline, but at the same time we're not really building anything new to provide the electricity that the demand is only going to increase in this country. So I think the serious concern for everybody is not only the production of energy but also the reliability of that production.
CONAN: Let's get a caller in on the conversation. We'll go to Ryan(ph), and Ryan's with us from Sheraton, Wyoming.
RYAN: Hi, gentlemen. Hey, this is interesting. I'm traveling, actually, between two power plants right now. I work for a company that sells equipment to power plants. And my comment is this, is the power plants, from what I can tell, they're willing to invest, you know, in the better, cleaner-burning technologies like low NOx burners, scrubbers and, you know, other technologies that will make the emissions cleaner.
But from what I can tell, their fear is this, is even if we do invest in these technologies, who's to say that they're not going to be shut down shortly after spending this money on these new technologies.
CONAN: In other words by new regulations, ever, ever more strict regulations.
RYAN: Yes, ever more strict regulations, thus negating, you know, the money, the millions that they spent on these newer technologies.
CONAN: James Stevenson, does he - is the concern well-placed?
STEVENSON: Yeah, the one area that really isn't regulated so far is carbon, and that absolutely could impact a future generation. And it's just a very, very big unknown. But really the bigger picture problem is that coal plants are also expensive to build, and when you incorporate the costs of building a coal plant that just the construction will probably take you four years and then a few years in planning versus an efficient gas unit, you know, which the actual construction only takes one year, coal has difficulty competing on that cost of capital basis.
So almost regardless of whether or not carbon or, you know, some other regulation could impact new or existing units, coal units are fundamentally expensive to build.
CONAN: Ryan, good luck to you, drive safely, thanks very much for the phone call. We're talking about changes in coal and coal country. Stay with us. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. It's worth mentioning coal is not the energy source to fall victim to cheaper natural gas. So is nuclear power. An article this week in the Washington Post pointed out that five years ago, executives and politicians promised a nuclear renaissance in this country. Now several nuclear plants are being shut down. Their owners say they can't compete with natural gas. Safety, of course, is also a concern for many.
Our focus today, though, king coal. If you're involved in the coal industry, if you mine it, ship it or burn it, tell us what's changed, 800-989-8255. Email us, email@example.com. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org, and click on TALK OF THE NATION. Bill Bissett is president of the Kentucky Coal Association. Also with us, James Stevenson, associate director of coal at the consulting firm HIS, where he leads coal market analysis.
And this email is from Jason(ph), who reflects a lot of messages we're getting: I can't believe you're not calling people out on just how horrible coal is for the ecosystem. So what if it gives jobs? Bill Bissett, how do you answer that?
BISSETT: Well, I think that's easy to say if you don't live in Kentucky or one of the coal-producing states or more importantly a coal-using state. And every form of electricity production has some kind of economic and environmental cost to it. And that to me is a whole issue to itself, let alone the issues of reliability and scope: How much electricity can it produce, and how consistently can it produce it?
And that becomes what kind of world do we want to live in, literally? I mean, you know, electricity benefits all of our lives. We've got nearly two billion people on this planet that don't have electricity. They don't live as long as we do, and they don't have the same quality of life. So at the end of the day, yes it does have a price, but it's a price that does benefit our lives.
CONAN: And James Stevenson, it's also worth pointing out even shipping coal by train to West Coast ports to send it to China, that causes pollution problems, too. Those cars are open, and there's coal dust spread all around the track and into the air.
STEVENSON: I think those stories are probably a little overstated. Coal producers do, I think, a good job of spraying sealants on coal, and I think that's a story that gets a headline, but it's a bit of a beat-up over and above reality. I don't think there's that much dust pollution.
CONAN: So as you look, though, at the environmental impact, that is another factor in coal's ability to compete.
STEVENSON: Certainly, certainly, and, you know, we certainly see that more currently in Europe, you know, where we're seeing a carbon thrust coming in later this decade that will close the gap between coal and gas, coal being cheaper in Europe. Here in the U.S., environmental costs have really been more in the form of regulations that are driving, you know, the retirements that we talked about earlier.
CONAN: Here's an email question from Max(ph) in Charleston, West Virginia, and he directs it to Bill Bissett: How much of a negative impact have the EPA regulatory initiatives had on Kentucky's coal severance tax revenue? What segments of Kentucky's populace suffers the most as a result for coal severance tax revenue? You're going to have to explain to us first: What's the coal severance tax?
BISSETT: Sure, for every ton of coal mined, a tax is placed on it when it leaves the portal, and that way, really in many ways that money is cut in half in Kentucky. There are different formulas for different states. But half that money goes back to the community where the coal was mined.
And in the past that money was used kind of for additional benefits: playgrounds, things needed for the community. Now a lot of that money goes literally to operating costs for the county. So there's a serious concern, especially in the eastern Kentucky coal-producing counties, of how are they going to run their county and local governments without this severance tax.
So Max is right. It's a very serious concern in both eastern Kentucky and West Virginia as state budgets have waned, and we've seen that in Kentucky. It really has an impact locally, but also as coal has suffered, it further chokes out the one remaining revenue stream.
CONAN: Let's get another caller in. This is Mike(ph), and Mike's with us from Lincoln, Nebraska.
MIKE: Yes, I'm a locomotive engineer for the Burlington Northern Santa Fe. And although it hasn't impacted us significantly yet in Lincoln, you can see it coming. There are - we've got a significant number of coal trains parked and out of service, and although you don't see it yet, the future, I believe 2015, 2016, power plants in Iowa, Georgia, Alabama, they're all converting to natural gas.
I know there's nuclear power plant permits being let out I believe in Georgia or Alabama, one of those big power producing areas down there. I guess it's a catch-22 for me. It's my livelihood on the one hand; on the other hand, you know, it's an environmental issue. But I guess that's just my comment there.
CONAN: How has - you say there's idle coal cars in the yards. There have to be fluctuations in the amount of coal being shipped anyway, right?
MIKE: That's true, but the reduction in the number of trains passing through is more than your normal fluctuation. And I think that's - you know, it's probably got a lot to do with the price of natural gas and that type of thing and, you know, these new air pollution regulations that have been imposed.
CONAN: OK, Mike, thanks very much for the call.
MIKE: Yes, thank you.
CONAN: And James Stevenson, it was just, what, several, five, 10 years ago we saw a great expansion in the amount of rail capacity for specifically shipping coal.
STEVENSON: That's right. You know, I think certainly the eastern railroads have taken a pretty hefty hit. Rail car loadings are down, you know, 15 percent, 15, 20 percent this year, you know. And rails are sort of in a way the forgotten loser in all of this. Obviously coal producers hurt, and coal-burning utilities hurt, but the, you know, the rail companies and the barge companies that transport the coal, trucking companies, hurt, as well.
You know, I do think that, you know, with the export story and, you know, potential growth of exports out of the West Coast, certainly the Burlington Northern has a bit of upside there. But, you know, eastern railroads I think are hurting disproportionately more just as the eastern coal companies are.
CONAN: Bill Bissett, as the Powder River Basin ships to China, are there markets for that - those coal fields in the East?
BISSETT: Well, and that's one of the questions we're looking at right now. As you look at - you know, you talked about the criticism of dust off coal trains. In the West, I mean, we're wondering if there is some type of blockade in Washington state and Oregon, does that create a better market for our eastern coal? And that's the kind of issues we're watching that are going to have a dynamic.
But I think at the same time, that overall global demand for electricity is expected to increase greatly, and with the coal in the ground here in Kentucky, it remains our hope that in sort of a long-term planning stage, that can produce more opportunities for us.
CONAN: And getting back to politics just for a moment, we saw obviously it - the war on coal mantra that ran through the election last November, we're coming up on midterm elections in a couple of years. Do you see coal playing a factor in, for example, the Kentucky Senate race?
BISSETT: Well absolutely. You have Republican leader Mitch McConnell, who's been a very stalwart friend of coal, I think, during his time frame, you know, in the Senate, who might possibly run against Ashley Judd, who, you know, is a big supporter of UK basketball but is very anti-coal in her beliefs and also kind of considered very out of step with a lot of conventional, let's say, philosophy here in Kentucky.
So I think again, much like we've seen in other races, I think coal will be a big factor, especially when you consider that, you know, the president only carrying four out of 120 counties here in Kentucky.
CONAN: Ashley Judd has not declared for that seat yet. So...
BISSETT: She has not.
CONAN: And would have to win I think a primary in order to get the nomination. So that's a long way from decided as yet. But as you look, is this just going to be a struggle for dwindling markets?
BISSETT: I think it's going to be a struggle, and one of the things that we look to in a second-term President Obama was kind of who he (technical difficulty) say a message to us, and with Gina McCarthy, who was sort of the right hand many people consider of Lisa Jackson, the former EPA administrator, it's a serious concern.
And where, you know, we feel very strongly in Appalachia that they've focused on eastern Kentucky and West Virginia, as they now move more to a climate change policy or, if you will, a carbon tax, the concern is there's going to be more of a national campaign to simply move us away from coal by any political means necessary.
CONAN: And here's an email from Daniel(ph) in Danville, Kentucky: Please do not forget to mention the environmental and health impact of mining coal, especially mountaintop removal. This has great economic impact on the people who live next to those sites and those of us who live downstream and get our water from rivers that source in the mountains. Kentucky's currently discussing relaxing the selenium standards for rivers and streams, which impact our wildlife and drinking water, and MTR has ruined people's property and livelihoods who live near these sites. Mr. Bissett does not represent all of us Kentuckians.
BISSETT: I don't represent all Kentuckians, but I can tell you that the person writing that email represents very few. When you look at topography being one of the things that have kept us really from seeing much economic advantage in Appalachia, it is that flatland development that's helped us a great deal. And I think when you look at surface mining 50 years ago to what it is today, it's come a long way. And specifically, the mountaintop mining that he references, that's less than 3 percent of our coal production here in Kentucky. So it's a very small percentage of what we use to extract coal now.
CONAN: Let's get another caller on the line, and we'll go to Chris, and Chris on the line with us from Lexington, Kentucky.
CHRIS: Yes. Hello?
CONAN: You're on the line. You're on the air, Chris. Go ahead.
CHRIS: Yeah. I work for CSX Transportation, and the rail industry is really hurting because of all of the, you know, the regulations and stuff. They have the EPA. And I mean, this - it's not just hurting the miners. I mean, it's hurting everybody.
CONAN: And the CSX is the old Chessie System, right? The...
CHRIS: Yeah, yeah, old C&O, yeah.
CONAN: And where do you work?
CHRIS: I work on the maintenance side. I travel, you know?
CONAN: And how does that diminishment - how do you see it?
CHRIS: Oh, layoffs, getting laid off early in the year. Usually, they hardly ever lay off, but this year, there's a lot of guys sitting at the house.
CONAN: At the house, you mean waiting around...
CHRIS: Yeah.
CONAN: ...the union shop, waiting for an offer?
CHRIS: Yeah, waiting on the good call to come to work, yeah. I mean, it's bad.
CONAN: And do you see any prospect for improvement?
CHRIS: Say again, now.
CONAN: Do you see any hope that it will get better?
CHRIS: I hope it does. Well, with all the regulations and stuff going on, I don't know, so. You know, I'm a Democrat by heart, but I mean, you know, they're not doing nothing to help us. So, I mean, hopefully, it gets better, but I mean that's in the government's hands, you know, not mine.
CONAN: All right, Chris, and when you say it gets better economically, on the other hand, I'm sure you know about the environmental impact of all that coal?
CHRIS: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, the environment, you know, like - I mean it's not as bad as what everybody thinks it is. Like, I mean, nuclear power plants, just look in Japan for what happened, you know, a meltdown or something like that. It's going to hurt worse than, you know? You know, a hundred coal plants or, you know, fire plants will do.
CONAN: Well, Chris, thanks very much and we wish you the best of luck.
CHRIS: Yeah. Have a good day. Thank you.
CONAN: All right. Thank you. We're talking about the future of American coal. Our guests are Bill Bissett, who's president of the Kentucky Coal Association, with us on the phone from his office in Lexington; James Stevenson is also with us, associate director of coal at the consulting firm IHS CERA with us by Skype from his office in Houston. And you're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
This email from Gary: I grew up in Ashland, Kentucky, whose radio station is WCMI, Where Coal Meets Iron. I'm more than a little incensed to hear someone say that the principal societal cost of coal is the cost of regulation. My mother died in her early 70s when a new pulmonary doctor in Ashland described her lungs as being so terrible that he never even heard such a condition described. And, yes, there are environmental hazards to all kinds of energy production, Bill Bissett, as you said, coal certainly has some, and they are measured in lung and heart disease too.
BISSETT: Absolutely. But I think the key is to look at 21st century coalmining in addition to 21st century coal usage. And, you know, being from West Virginia, I know the kind of stories the gentleman was talking about from Ashland, but I think we also, you know, when you travel through Hazard or Lynch, you know, or any - Pikeville right now, it's a very different setting than it was 40 years ago. It's cleaner. The air is cleaner. The water is cleaner. And I think our industry gets no credit for that because everyone I think everyone is still going from the black-and-white photographs from 50 years ago, and that's not a real true representation of what's going on.
And the thing I stress to everyone, you know, granted I speak for the industry, but talk to someone who actually lives there, and the vast majority of folks will tell you, much like you heard from the gentleman with the railroads, we're hurting here, and we believe in coal is the way that we can earn a good livelihood and help the nation.
CONAN: Let's go next to John. John with us from Greenwich, Connecticut.
JOHN: Yeah. I just want to bring a couple of points up, Neal. Number one, we're working here in Greenwich on the old Cos Cob power plant, which was the first coal to electric plant in the United States of America. It went into operation in 1906. And because of the fly-ash deposits, they are still remediating and need to remediate arsenic and heavy metals that come from that coal. It's a long-long-long-term pollution issue, and it stretches out. I want to also point out that the Kingston Fossil Plant in Tennessee that had the coal slurry dam burst that has cost over a billion dollars so far in reparations and damages to people that had their property (technical difficulties) to cleaning for the slurry.
And also point out that some of the cleanest coal technology in the world is actually in South Africa and the South African company SASOL takes coal and makes a liquid fuel from it. And the United States has never embraced that technology. We've looked at it. It's very costly, and it was actually invented by the Nazis by I.G. Farben when they were using Silesian coal to gasify and make (unintelligible) fuels during the bit between the First and Second World Wars. So I just take my comments off the air, but I'd like to hear your comments on that.
CONAN: All right, John, to be fair, the cleanliness of power plants has improved a lot since 1906. But I wanted to ask you, James Stevenson, about the gasification of coal. Yes, that was a technology invented some years ago.
STEVENSON: Yes. There are a number of technologies that, you know, helped to make coal cleaner. And, you know, to be clear, U.S. utilities, U.S. coalmines have adhered with every regulation that's been placed upon them. And, you know, they've done that successfully. Really, it just comes back to an economic story. You know, we have, you know, fluidized bed technology. You know, there are a few others, and they do help. They just have to be economic, and that really is the thing that new units struggle with, is economics. Those are the new natural gas units.
CONAN: And as you look at the future of the industry, we just have about a minute left, what do you see? Is it going to be an export industry?
STEVENSON: Yeah. Look, I think, domestically, we're going to have slow decline. We have a strong Western coals, like I said. I think there is an interest in Powder River Basin coal, in particular, from Korean utilities and Taiwan, lesser extent, Japan and much lesser extent, China. So there's a (unintelligible) story out through the West Coast, but others domestically a declined. And then exports, you know, hopefully, making up a little bit of that decline.
CONAN: James Stevenson, thanks very much for your time today.
STEVENSON: Yeah, my pleasure, Neal.
CONAN: James Stevenson, again, of the consulting firm, IHS CERA, with us from his office in Houston. Bill Bissett, thank you.
BISSETT: Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: And Bill Bissett, president of the Kentucky Coal Association, with us from his office in Lexington. Coming up next, after the brutal acid attack on the artistic director, David Remnick takes us behind the scenes at the Bolshoi Ballet. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.


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