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Thanks to KDE France, I have the chance to conduct a phone interview with Trolltech CEO Eirik Eng. If you have questions on Qt and Trolltech, now is the time to ask! I will harvest questions from LinuxFr, KDE France and of course here. A possible set of topics includes: the future of Qt, Trolltech's status as a company, Qt's market penetration internationally, competition with Red Hat and GTK+, Qt on MacOS X (ed: recent OSNews article). If you have any other ideas, please be quick to voice them as the interview time is imminent.
Dear Trolltch, SWT is realy a great GUI Library for JAVA.
On Linux the GUI-Connection is done with GTK (or x86/Motif)
When will you support IBM with a QT Binding?
Good question! I would love to see Eclipse using Qt instead of Motif/GTK.
Yeah, me too !!!
Eclipse is simply wonderful, now if it only would support QT ... ;-)
That should be great, but I think it's impossible due to licensing issues. SWT is CPL, while QT/X11 is GPL. I think it's only possible when TT will make something like a SWT exception in their license.
Eclipse on QT/Embedded would be great!!!
yep, i dream of doing java development on my palm pilot quite frequently...
eclipse and qt are opposite ends of the spectrum. eclipse using swt was designed for native widget binding. as i understand, qt emulates it's widget rendering. this would put you back to a netbeans type of application. that emulation requires MUCH MUCH more overhead.
I don't see why Qt is less native than Motif or GTK widget libraries.. SWT do bind to native (as in non-Java implemented) widget libraries and that is what makes it so much faster than Swing.
They haven't implemented an SWT port to Qt yet because of licensing problems. Qt's license (at least used to) conflict with IBM's Common Public License.
According to the IBM guys on the eclipse mailling list they already have the Qt bindings done, It just can't be release because of the licensing issues.
I think they already did an AWT peer implementation for their Qtopia platform.
I found it so hard to work on Eclipse with Qt, maybe I'm a rookie after all.
I'd like to see Eclipse with a Qt or (even better) KDE GUI, too!
BTW: Netbeans is faster on my Linux box than Eclipse, but on Windows Eclipse is a lot faster. Seems that the overhead of GTK+ is bigger than the overhead of Swing.
Now, I'd like to use Eclipse on Linux, but the look of it is just annoying in KDE.
Regarding licensing, please, IBM, do listen: GPL rules!
And as long as there is GPL'ed Eclipse version with a Qt or KDE GUI I'll always prefer Netbeans. It's also faster and much more efficient in current versions. And: The Netbeans modules all work, whereas the majority of Eclipse plugins just suck.
ever consider selling Qt to Sun or anyone else? Those who work there tell me that many people are tired of Gtk but are now stuck w/it for now.
2) A lot of people and small companies are interested in Qt but are afraid of developing with the free version and cannot afford the licensing for the commercial version. Will Trolltech do something about this situation?
Sun and Macromedia are going to like GTK2 ...
GTK2, especially with c++ and c# wrappers shims and what have you, is really good. And it's still being developped and improved, cleaned and ported to native Win32 and Carbon. The advantage of C is it a flexible mess that can be easily ported and optimized :-( And ObjectiveC is the best of all :-(
Qt's *massive* advantage in documentation is gradually being eroded too ...
what to do??!!
> Sun and Macromedia are going to like GTK2 ...
Uhm..? Macromedia uses gtk? That's news to me
>GTK2, especially with c++ and c# wrappers shims and what have you, is really good
gtkmm, for what it's worth, still very much feels like a wrapper unfortunatly.. I agree it has been cleaned up from it's quite messy gtk 1.x days (and is now finally usable), but it doesn't feel like a nice, complete coherent solution like Qt does.
> And it's still being developped and improved, cleaned and ported to native Win32 and Carbon.
While there is a fork of gtk to use carbon, the main one still uses x11 unfortunatly :(
Last time I saw, gtk still doesn't integrate as well as Qt does on win32 either. It doesn't use WindowsXP Visual Styles, but rather uses gtk-engines :(
> The advantage of C is it a flexible mess that can be easily ported and optimized
true, but it's a myth that C++ can't be as portable. after all, Qt works very nice on both MacOS and Windows, and has for years. gtk might have also, but it still doesn't work well on either one.
> And ObjectiveC is the best of all :-(
I personally gind objective-C quite awkward and less powerful compared to C++. I think a lot of other people do, seeing the relative popularity of C++ compared to obj-C. But hey, if I had learned obj-C before C++, I might feel differently.
> Qt's *massive* advantage in documentation is gradually being eroded too ..
Agreed.. time for qt to use doxygen! (which ironically, uses Qt)
If I was at the head of Trolltech, I would want to see Qt being used everywhere it made sense, pervasively. Do you, Eirik, have the same attitude? If so, what kind of steps do you or would you take to increase the market adoption of Qt?
For example, are you concerned that a distribution such as Red Hat may not install Qt by default? Are you concerned when commercial companies such as MandrakeSoft, IBM, Sun, Macromedia choose GTK+ over Qt? Are you concerned that GTK+ provides functionality such as fully-fledged X11 accessibility that Qt doesn't have? Do you pursue efforts such as the recent CE Linux Forum formed by the industry giants aggressively?
> Are you concerned that GTK+ provides functionality such as fully-fledged X11 accessibility that Qt doesn't have?
Qt supports accessibility for Windows. As accessibility is a condition for selling software to the gouvernment in the USA, how important is it for Qt to have this feature?
And how do you evaluate the efford of the KDEAP to write a bridge to the GNU accessibility framework (at-spi) for your business?
Why is there no GPLed Qt 3 for Windows? The lack of this has stopped a number of my friends from using Qt for their free software projects.
Yep, this question popped up in my brain too...
Please ask this question; I was about to post it myself.
I really want to know this one as well. I would love to use QT for a project that I am planning (free) but I need database access across platforms with grids, etc and thus want it in the GUI toolkit. Even GTK+ doesn't have that, so I will be stuck with either Java or WxWindows without a free QT3 for Windows.
I question this as well. I've got a project intended mainly for a windows audience that I develop on Linux. I've kept it hobbling along by mainting backwards compatibility with Qt 2.x and the Qt Non-Commerical Edition. I'm not necessarily stuck on having a GPL version for windows, but I'd *really* like to see more regular releases of the Non-Commercial Edition. It would also be great to see these releases made with cygwin/gcc compatibility rather than requiring MSVC.
I can understand the concern about maintaining the revenue stream, and that this is low on TrollTech's priority list, but it would be interesting to hear about it. Heck, I'll bet they could find lots of people who'd be willing to sign an NDA and manage/maintain these releases so that it wouldn't be a burden on TrollTech.
Just my $.02.
My vote here :-)
(disclaimer, i don't run windows, i just wonder if a gpl windoze qt would increase marker share significantly for qt)
This question has already been answered in the past, I think it was in my previous interview. His answer was "When windows becomes Free Software, we will release Qt as free software for windows".
... which basically means "Never." ;)
So when did Mac OSX become Free Software?
MacOSX, as a platform, relies a lot more on free software than Windows does.
Maybe so, although my understanding is that there is also quite a bit of BSD code in Windows. Obviously MacOSX has _more_ BSD inside, since it is based on BSD, but MacOSX is hardly free. I don't have a bone to pick, I was just challenging the reason given for the lack of a GPL'ed Windows Qt. The obvious reason is that Trolltech's bread and butter is the Windows Qt.
My uneducated guess about Trolltech releasing a GPL Qt for MacOSX, is that it signals an increasing level of cooperation between Trolltech and Apple in the future. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Apple buys Trolltech, given the vast amount of KDE applications and libraries built around Qt. Apple would be tapping into a massive amount of "free" resources for their platform.
> Obviously MacOSX has _more_ BSD inside, since it is based on BSD, but MacOSX is hardly free.
That's true, but MacOSX's kernel, Darwin, is completely free. It's directly based on FreeBSD. Not only this, but unlike Microsoft, Apple chose to keep the BSD code within OSX (Darwin), under a BSD license, so public code is available. Microsoft chose to keep their BSD-derived code closed source.
Windows is significantly more closed than OSX as a result.
Of course, I agree that the real reason is that TT's main money comes from Windows.
Maybe he could elaborate on why Windows not being free software prevents Trolltech from releasing Qt/Win as GPL. I don't see the connection at all; I think releasing Qt/Win under the GPL would only benefit Trolltech, free software, and if anything ease migration away from Windows to Linux or Mac OS X.
But Trolltech doesn't (as a company) have any reason to want you to migrate away from Windows. They don't sell migration, the sell a cross platform toolkit. Nor does people migrating to Qt without any motivation to buy a copy help TT. As much as they might like to say, "Wow, isn't that neat? They're using Qt!" it doesn't pay the bills.
Being pragmatic, you have to ask what benefit would it be to TT to release Qt for Windows?
You also have to realize that most of the places Qt is being used are for internal tools -- in these situations companies can quite easily just use the GPL'ed version and simply never do a release. Many companies will of course still want support, but TT seems to still be overwhelmingly a "software" rather than "services" copmpany and as such has to have some mechanism for continuing to sell their software.
If you're developing on Windows, you should be used to paying quite a bit for software -- those compilers don't come cheap...
"Being pragmatic, you have to ask what benefit would it be to TT to release Qt for Windows?"
Freeware using Qt increases Qt visibility. Windows is, by far, the most common desktop platform and even a small number of well-known Qt-based freeware applications would make Qt much more well known, potentially leading to many more sales. Think about KDE for Windows for example -- wouldn't it be an excellent showcase of Qt's power to the many Windows developers out there?
What I mean is that the rationale for a GPL'd Qt/Windows version is the same as for a Qt/X11 one. Why the asymmetry?
"But Trolltech doesn't (as a company) have any reason to want you to migrate away from Windows."
They sell a cross-platform toolkit, so I think a desktop market that is more equally split among the different platforms could help their sales a fair bit, too.
"If you're developing on Windows, you should be used to paying quite a bit for software -- those compilers don't come cheap..."
Not true. gcc with mingw32 and Borland C++ 5.5 are both perfectly good gratis Windows compilers.
I guess most people on Windows, including developers, don't care about things like toolkits. It's just a no-issue over there, because software on Windows just works (or if it doesn't it's not because of the tookit). With a good toolkit the app looks and behaves like a native Win32/MFC app. And if a Windows developer wants a better, higher level programming development, .NET is a logical choice. Qt is very exotic for a Win32 dev.
"Paying Quite a bit for windows compilors"
Not likely! Ofcourse theres that dev c++ but for me...nothing less then vs.net pro 2003..and no i didnt pay...my school has a msdn license and we get all these amazingly expensive developing apps and windows xp pro and other versions, media edition if we want, for free...and msdn help thing...and when whidbey comes out we get that to! and longHORN!! ALL FREE!
now your comment is wrong in that you think because people use windows, they actually spend money on software...which is laughable in every way...*well you know what laughter sounds like :D*
I've seen no recent activities in the QT# area.
Does Trolltech consider the .Net platform as a future target for QT?
As many people are ask when KDE 4.0 will be released, this question would be interesting :)
When do you expect to be releasing QT 4.0 and what features do you think should be there by then?
Yes, we want to know!
Especially >>what features do you think should be there by then?<<
Does it annoy you when people spell Qt as 'QT' instead of 'Qt'?
I don't think they care much about it, but it seems you do ;-) QT, QT, QT :D
I'm a programmer, I can't help it. It kills me.
I'm a programmer too (better said, I do program), ... but I can't see the problem. There's nothing in between most their classes that says "Qt". It's only "Q" that turns up usually (QWidget, QString, Q...).
As you can see above I make the mistake sometimes even myself. But that's mainly due to the spellings of GTK, KDE, ... and one ends up capitalizing everything. Anyway, have you noticed that their logo has actually a capital lletter "T"? ;-)
Do you use Unix? Cuz everything is case sensitive there, just like it usually is in programming.
The problem is also that Qt and QT are not the same thing. One is a GUI toolkit, the other one is also known as Apple's QuickTime. And have _you_ noticed that they used to be called TrollTech and now they are called Trolltech? Just goes to show that capitalization matters. :-)
Actually, "Qt" prefix is used for compatibility classes, those
that were removed in some release, but are kept in the attic/
directory of Qt sources to help port apps (i.e. by adding them
to app sources). For example, Qt2's QTableView, which was removed
in Qt3 became available as a QtTableView standalone replacement class.
If you watch the videos on the site you can hear that the original (marketing) name is QT, while the developers call it 'cute'.
I spoke with a windows developer recently who is using MFC to build his applications. I was trying to get him to evaulate Qt, because this would obviously make porting his apps much easier. He did, and didn't like it, for the following reasons:
- Qt isn't "native" MS Windows, meaning if you install extension plug-ins that eg. let you enter japanese text into widgets, or extend functionality (eg. password databases that automatically fill out login dialogs etc.) these plug-ins will only find widgets developed with the MFC libraries. MFC apps just "play nicer" with the rest of the system, he claims.
- There are "lots and lots of MFC extensions" available for just about everything if you don't want to roll your own. Need a connection to a specific database or a table widget with special properties? Chances are that you can license it for ?200 instead of spending a week rolling your own.
Now I don't claim these claims are right (are they?), but if they are, are you considering to change this? If so, how?
This, and the fact that you still need to license MS Visual C++ to be able to use Qt seems to be a major problem when trying to convert professional developers.
I don't think there's much they can do about that. Qt is fundamentally an "emulating" toolkit, it does all widgets internally. That means less OS integration than you'd otherwise have because it's not a first tier toolkit (except on Linux, where sometimes it is).
Changing Qt to use native widgets would probably mean mostly rewriting it. Abstraction toolkits often have looser semantics as well, so basically I doubt they'll do that.
OTOH MFC isn't so great really, so like most things you have to balance the pros and cons.
so then, fundamentally, it's similar to Swing from the java camp? i've done limited KDE/Qt development circa kde 2.2, and it was nice to code for. the trouble is, machines aren't really that powerfull and memory still isn't that cheep for using a emulating toolkit as a desktop (consider a swing desktop?). netbeans and eclipse are prime examples of using an emulator .vs. native widgets. eclipse wins hands over foot. course, that's at the slight expense of minor appearance difference and such on different platforms.
i commonly use a kde 3.x desktop outside of work and find it ice to use, i just wanted to pipe in on the emulator .vs. native topic. i prefer native when available.
Yes, more or less. I guess it depends on the platform, on MacOS it seems to use their style API.
The same for WinXP. And for KDE, of course, the Qt style API is
the native API.


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Calvinist Corner | www.mslick.com |
1 Samuel 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 1 And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran. 2 And there was a man in Maon, whose possessions were in Carmel; and the man was very great, and he had three thousand sheep, and a thousand goats: and he was shearing his sheep in Carmel. 3 Now the name of the man was Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail: and she was a woman of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance: but the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb. 4 And David heard in the wilderness that Nabal did shear his sheep. 5 And David sent out ten young men, and David said unto the young men, Get you up to Carmel, and go to Nabal, and greet him in my name: 6 And thus shall ye say to him that liveth in prosperity, Peace be both to thee, and peace be to thine house, and peace be unto all that thou hast. 7 And now I have heard that thou hast shearers: now thy shepherds which were with us, we hurt them not, neither was there ought missing unto them, all the while they were in Carmel. 8 Ask thy young men, and they will shew thee. Wherefore let the young men find favour in thine eyes: for we come in a good day: give, I pray thee, whatsoever cometh to thine hand unto thy servants, and to thy son David. 9 And when David's young men came, they spake to Nabal according to all those words in the name of David, and ceased. 10 And Nabal answered David's servants, and said, Who is David? and who is the son of Jesse? there be many servants now a days that break away every man from his master. 11 Shall I then take my bread, and my water, and my flesh that I have killed for my shearers, and give it unto men, whom I know not whence they be? 12 So David's young men turned their way, and went again, and came and told him all those sayings. 13 And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff. 14 But one of the young men told Abigail, Nabal's wife, saying, Behold, David sent messengers out of the wilderness to salute our master; and he railed on them. 15 But the men were very good unto us, and we were not hurt, neither missed we any thing, as long as we were conversant with them, when we were in the fields: 16 They were a wall unto us both by night and day, all the while we were with them keeping the sheep. 17 Now therefore know and consider what thou wilt do; for evil is determined against our master, and against all his household: for he is such a son of Belial, that a man cannot speak to him. 18 Then Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid them on asses. 19 And she said unto her servants, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she told not her husband Nabal. 20 And it was so, as she rode on the ass, that she came down by the covert of the hill, and, behold, David and his men came down against her; and she met them. 21 Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good. 22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 23 And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, 24 And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid. 25 Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 26 Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal. 27 And now this blessing which thine handmaid hath brought unto my lord, let it even be given unto the young men that follow my lord. 28 I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days. 29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling. 30 And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel; 31 That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid. 32 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: 33 And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. 34 For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 35 So David received of her hand that which she had brought him, and said unto her, Go up in peace to thine house; see, I have hearkened to thy voice, and have accepted thy person. 36 And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until the morning light. 37 But it came to pass in the morning, when the wine was gone out of Nabal, and his wife had told him these things, that his heart died within him, and he became as a stone. 38 And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died. 39 And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be the LORD, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept his servant from evil: for the LORD hath returned the wickedness of Nabal upon his own head. And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife. 40 And when the servants of David were come to Abigail to Carmel, they spake unto her, saying, David sent us unto thee, to take thee to him to wife. 41 And she arose, and bowed herself on her face to the earth, and said, Behold, let thine handmaid be a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord. 42 And Abigail hasted, and arose, and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that went after her; and she went after the messengers of David, and became his wife. 43 David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel; and they were also both of them his wives. 44 But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife, to Phalti the son of Laish, which was of Gallim. Return to Bible Online Calvinist Corner |

subset: commoncrawl


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Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Charisma as Divine Favor
Charisma is, of course, a transliteration of the Greek word χαρισμα, which means something like "gift of grace." It's an old word sometimes used in pagan contexts but that gained new life and depth of meaning when it was used by the Greek translators of the Hebrew scriptures known to history as the Septuagint. In that context, charisma came to mean "divine favor" and is usually applied to someone whom God has blessed in a unique and powerful way. This meaning was one shared by the writers of the New Testament, who, of course, were familiar with the Septuagint.
This prolog is intended to lay the groundwork for an odd thought I had today. In Greyhawk, paladins have only two requirements: they must be of Lawful alignment and they must have 17 Charisma. There are no other expectations about an OD&D paladin, in contrast to AD&D's much more strenuous ones (five out of the six ability scores have minimums). I'll admit that that sometimes seems odd to me, even though I adopted it in my Dwimmermount campaign. Of all the ability scores to have as an entry requirement, why Charisma? Why not, say, Wisdom? What exactly does Charisma represent that makes it a particularly good determinant of what character qualifies as a paladin?
That's when the notion of Charisma as divine favor struck me as a possible explanation. Now, it's not a perfect explanation by any means. There are lots of problems with it, chief being how divine favor ties into being a good leader of mercenary hirelings. On the other hand, high Charisma does make monsters less likely to attack you on sight, too, and that I can buy as a sign of godly influence. Of course, part of me then starts to wonder about how this divine favor might manifest more generally (or not). What about a character with only 15 Charisma who's not a Lawful fighter? Does he get some benefit, too, and, if so, what is it?
And that's where my train of thought derails and I decide not to think any more about this topic -- even though I know I will.
32 comments:
There is also another element after the Biblical sense : Max Weber's theory of Charisma as one of the origins of authority. Charisma is religious grace because it is the quality of Prophets, Gurus, Sect Founders. Paladins need this aura of authority as a sign of being chosen by their God(s).
I guess LG characters who have very high Charisma could also have a halo or nimbus as a manifestation.@Phersv: In fact my LL campaign doesn't use Paladins. Any class can be a Paladin by swearing holy oaths and being accepted as a champion by a god. Once they do it, they will get gifts (something like class abilities) -- and the first one of these is a halo. :)
As for Charisma, I'm using it as "ability to lead" and that saves me from the connundrum of figuring out what non LG charismatig characters do. They are still great leaders although not necessarily smart nor wise.
The ability to lead is also sort of compatible with Greyhawk's paladin, I'd say. Are paladins loners? Was Paksenarrion a loner? I don't know for sure. I guess even great leaders don't necessarily have to lead a lot of henchmen at all times.I've always considered it a measure of "magnetic personality," of a type one often sees in Hollywood stars who are not necessarily physically attractive but are nonetheless compelling.
It's opposite would be "repellent personality," and--again--there are many people in this world who are physically attractive but are insufferable to be near.I've recently come to think of Charisma as "force of personality".
People with a great force of personality tend to have a lot of friends and influence, can more easily get what they want, are difficult to cow or daunt.
Sometimes being good looking will help someone develop a strong force of personality, but not always.>>3e made a move-- occasionally-- to address Charisma as the root of confidence & willpower. Of self-image & assurance. I thought it was a decent move<<
This is where it's at in the 3rd ed. inspired Star Wars Saga Edition I'm campaigning with right now. For Jedi, Charisma is what is needed to be powerful in the force. While it should probably be more based on Wisdom, I think they were pretty much just trying to keep away from the dump stat mentality. It's all very weird, because that numbnuts Anakin Skywalker was a pretty good example of how you can be strong in the force without a high charisma (I think we can all agree that it was the choice of actor that was poor in this case, but still he was written as an angry, bellyaching character).
I think with the 1st edition Paladin they were aiming more for a superhero type of thing. The requirements for the Paladin has Captain America written all over it.I've always used Charisma as a mixture of physical beauty, glibness, leadership ability, and that certain I-don't-know-what that makes some people special.
I had been thinking about secretly rolling up a luck score for each of my players, but this post makes me think I'll use their charisma score instead.
Side note: Is anyone else now using the captcha as a name generator? Try it, you'll like it.I always found it funny how Wisdom was the prerequisite for Clerics, when it makes sense for it to be Charisma. I always seen Charisma as the perfect prerequisite for Clerics, as they have to deal with worshipers and their own gods.
The smartest thing I have seen was how the DCC RPG combine Wisdom and Charisma into a single score called Personality. The name outright states its more about force of personality (charm and willfulness) then physical appeal. I also find that it also works to keep both from becoming a dump-stat - A Fighter player would find good use for high Charisma (avoids fights or bolster ones' numbers), but Wisdom is only useful for resisting certain types of magic.- AnonymousNovember 30, 2011 at 8:09 PM
Makes sense, Druid's need Wis 12, Cha 14(OD&D) or 15(AD&D).
Make normal Clerics Wis 9, Cha 12 or 13, simple enough house rules. You already mention why charisma is useful in leading people when you mention it is the gift of grace. It is no mistake that dukes and bishops are referred to as your grace. Or kings as your majesty. And that being gracious is something that one with higher social standing shows for ones of lesser social standing. In a sense they are trying to cultivate charisma, even if they don't possess it themselves.
I've always used charisma as an important stat for influencing and leading people, commanding attention, and oration,* especially when you get into domain management and politics (I don't use skills in my old D&D game but rather tests against stats).
I've always considered comeliness to be based on the characters stats, modified by the reaction roll (essentially another 3d6 roll). Thus CON is often an important characteristic (for how healthy a character is). Add DEX for how well they move. A lot of my female players liked referencing STR first. Asking players to rate the stats in order of appearance can get interesting results. But it's always affected by CHA.
Actually I like your idea of Charisma representing divine favour. Previously I had it as a natural attribute of a person - the external manifestation of their strength of will. So consider it stolen for my next campaign. <grin>This is actually an argument one of my players made a few days ago while we were discussing the issue: Charisma is something you want to achieve while playing the character. It's something the player does, not an attribute.
It is due to the fact that Charisma is defined by several aspects already present in the other abilities.
I dumped it and tried to explain my reasoning:
http://the-disoriented-ranger.blogspot.com/2011/11/hacking-hackmaster-part-2-who-needs.htmlPS One of the conventions of D&D is that everyone looks like what they are: good wizards have pointy hats and robes covered in stars, assassins wear a 'ninja costume' even during the day - the Dragon article about anti-paladins suggests they have a black horse, black armour, black sword, a thin, black mustache and a monocle.
In that context, why is 'high Charisma = good looking' so ridiculous?Re: the Doctor, his charisma is not entirely natural. It's pretty clear that like the Master, he studied the Gallifreyan semi-telepathic "hypnotism", although he does seem more interested in using it for good (breaking mind control, helping people to do what they didn't think they could do) rather than just mind controlling people. (Although these last few Doctors aren't written as having a firm grip on the distinction, on the few occasions when I've tuned in.)
Re: charisma vs comeliness, it's just not. Command presence isn't a comeliness thing, even in fairy tales. (Given how many ugly monsters have it.) I've seen famous actors go from zero to seeming spotlit, just by turning on the charisma, and many of them weren't pretty. I've dealt with people trying to charm me, and even trying to seduce me; and again, comeliness and attractiveness had very little to do with it.
There's a sort of implicit command to "pay attention to me and what I say, do what I want you to do, and don't think about it first."
Re: wisdom and clerics, the point is that most people working in the religious field are not people with command presence or any sort of charisma. Some high-up religious leaders are like that, yes. But most of your amazing saints in real life, and even in song and story, are not people you would look at. They are humble and don't want people to look at them; or they want people to look past them to their God or gods. Eventually, if they become very wise or do amazing things, they may accrue followers or a sort of charisma; but just as often, they're the last person you'd think of as "charismatic leaders."I like this a lot. Especially if you're playing a campaign without a lot of henchmen and CHA is being used as a dump stat, it might be nice to attach an additional benefit to CHA, making it double as a "luck" attribute. I know that some systems replace CHA with Luck, but this idea allows you to keep both.
In Jungian psychology, charisma/presence is often related to the term "mana", which, as used by Jung, refers to the assimilation of certain powerful subconscious arhetypes into an individual personality, granting them both social presence but also less well-defined mystical powers. A shaman or a powerful leader would be considered a mana personality, having both an uncanny social presence allowing them to command other people but also other abilities. The "divine grace" approach could be seen as just a subset of this concept; Jung makes it clear that mana is not by any means a benign force, and powerful mana personalities are acutely vulnerable to magalomania and other malignant personality traits.
Obviously, using "mana" this way would be confusing in an RPG context. But the framework is a good one for mixing "force of personality" and "mystical power/luck/divine favour/demonic favour". Essentially, a person with high CHA is perceived as IMPORTANT, both by other mortals and by the unseen forces that influence their lives. So, if your players are using CHA as a dump stat, in addition to the henchmen/follower/morale benefits you could throw in some Luck-related bonuses, like a saving throw bonus or the ability to re-roll once per session for people with high CHA (and corresponding penalties for low CHA).
One further thought: if we run with the "mana" concept, then high CHA is tied to alignment with specific archetypes. I wonder if you could have some fun with tying CHA closely to alignment, so that those with higher CHA are more tightly constrained by their alignment, or gain more benefits from being LG/CE rather than the more neutral or mixed alignments. This fits with the Paladin/anti-Paladin concept well, at least. For example, you could hand out luck-related bonuses for people who adhere to their alignment in play: these bonuses would be higher for people with high CHA, but lower (or nonexistent) for people with very low CHA."Presence" is a great word for it!
I should also add, on the cleric front, that the vast majority of those people in the Catholic Church who had a reputation for miracleworking during their lifetimes have been total anonymous schmoes in personal appearance. Often, they were deemed almost too lacking in intelligence for the religious life, but managed to get in through persistence and the pity of others. Often they worked the most menial jobs. They only became famous in most cases, because after a while people noticed that the natural laws just didn't work normally around these people, and what they prayed for would happen. Even in totally ridiculous ways. They had a lot of virtues and wisdom buried under their schmo-ness, it usually turned out. But they are such schmoes anyway, that they usually irritate the heck out of a lot of otherwise decent bosses and fellow religious. It just doesn't seem fair that they're all holy and God likes them, when they are such total schmoes. (And in the case of Brother Solanus Casey, because he played the fiddle not quite on key, and sang enthusiastically the same way, but took the name of a Franciscan saint/composer/musician.) For some reason, the way such "holy fools" totally don't have charisma worries some people a lot.
Some founders of religious orders are charismatic. (Francis was a would-be poet. Ignatius Loyola was a military commander.) But most are simply persistent, unashamed to beg, and totally focused on getting the mission done. An astounding number of religious founders are such schmoes that, as with founders of conventions and companies, somebody else with more savvy comes along and takes over later. (An astounding number of religious order founders have spent their closing years kicked out of their orders by such latecomers, or sent to some lonely place to be forgotten.) These folks with savvy usually get their comeuppance later; but they're the folks with the high charisma scores, not the saintly schmoes.
Having a high charisma score should sometimes be a detriment to a D&D religious career. (Because so many clergy and religious have been known to misuse their charisma, or end up with stalker followers.) It can also cause envy or resistance to one's new ideas, or even fear from laypeople of a ruling class.OTOH, those religious or civil figures who seem paladin-like are often very charismatic. Joan of Arc, for instance. Sure, there was an existing prophecy of a Chosen One and all that; but frankly, the aristocracy and royalty of France didn't have any particular drive to do anything about France's situation or charisma to attract followers and obedience. Joan had both, which was part of why she got so much done in so few months. She had a certain amount of wisdom, a certain amount of intelligence (she was great at placing artillery), but she didn't actually swing a sword to hurt anybody. Everything she did, she did through pure leadership.
Most of the other paladin types I can think of are either fictional, or fictionalized history (like Godfrey of Bouillon in the Jerusalem poetry cycles, or some of Charlemagne's guys, or Sir Galahad).
But yeah, the Paksenarrion books worked on the theory that paladins are sent by the gods as much to put heart into good people to keep fighting, as to fight evil and slay Bad Things. Weber's paladins seem a bit similar.Looks like I'm joining the chorus for mana/force of personality. Here's my post from a while back on CHA as interpreted by Malinowski and Wolters.
Short form: it has been observed by church fathers, witchsniffers and political commentators in Europe and Southeast Asia that some people seem to be able to get the universe to go along with their schemes. For a Christian inflection, assume that the source of this power comes from outside the person. For an "Indianized" Southeast Asian/Oceanian inflection, assume it comes from inside the person (and may be linked to their bodily fluids).
One nice side-effect of the Malinowksi/Mauss interpretation - CHA-power can be given out by those who have a lot of it through gifts/favour. That is, you can level up as a reward for achieving things and/or getting closer to the people in power and/or getting followers by distributing largesse. Which maps neatly onto Rients' theory of carousing. I don't know how you make all that fit together in the Christian inflection, although coincidentally there seem to be a lot of Northern European Christian figures on the Good King Wenceslas model who just happen to combine generosity with wisdom, charisma and divine favour.I've always, since the early 80's, understood charisma to be a combination of influence, comeliness, persuasion and when (if) we ever used it, it was to that end. Wanna haggle? CHR check! Wanna talk the fool out of the tree to come follow you? CHR check! Think you can calm down a bunch of ugly cusses looking for a fight? CHR check!
ReplyDeleteSurprised no one here has mentioned the canonical source for the paladin class, viz., Three Hearts and Three Lions. Anderson spends a bit of text emphasizing how classically hunky Holger Carlsen is, and the swanmay Alianora couldn't resist him. I don't see that as excluding the CHA-as-grace or aura approach, but it is not ungrounded to see it as related to physical attractiveness.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Weber, you should definitely read George P. Hansen's "Max Weber, Charisma,
and the Disenchantment of the World" for the background on this.


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From the kitchen of One Perfect Bite... I've had really good luck with the soups I've tried this year. This weekend I found another that is a winner, both literally and figuratively. This wonderful soup won the carrot recipe contest at FOOD52, and one spoonful of this unlikely candidate will tell you why it received the honor. The carrots that form the base of of this soup are broiled rather than roasted. They are given a nuanced flavor boost with the addition small quantities of ginger, garlic and thyme, and the end result is a thick, creamy soup that contains no dairy of any kind. While the soup is a vegan delight, I've also seen carnivores wolf it down. The recipe is easy to follow and the only pitfall is the potential to burn the carrots while they are under the broiler. Watch them carefully. Use a good vegetable stock when you make the soup. It needn't be homemade, but it should be flavorful and not too salty. Vegetable stock is simple to make and I've included a recipe for those of you who would like to make your own. I know those of you who try this soup will rave about it. I served it to guests this weekend and it was really well received. I'll be making it over and over again. Here's the recipe.
Roasted Carrot Soup...from the kitchen of One Perfect Bite courtesy of food52.com
6 to 8 large carrots (about 1 3/4 pounds)
1/4 cup olive oil, divided use
6 cups vegetable stock (good quality, not too high in sodium)
1 piece ginger, an inch long, peeled
1 sprig thyme, plus more for garnish
1/2 large sweet onion
2 large garlic cloves, chopped
Freshly ground black pepper
1) Peel and cut the carrots into 1/2-inch rounds. On a rimmed baking sheet, toss carrots with 2 tablespoons of olive oil and sprinkle generously with salt. Set an oven rack 6 to 8 inches from heat source and turn on the broiler. Broil carrots until they brown and soften, turning them over with a spatula every 5 minutes or so; this should take 15 to 20 minutes.
2) Meanwhile, bring stock to a boil, add ginger and sprig of thyme and simmer gently for 15 minutes.
3) Put onion in a medium stock pot with remaining 2 tablespoons olive oil. Brown onion over medium heat, stirring frequently. Add garlic, cooking until fragrant, and then add carrots.
4) Remove ginger and thyme from stock and pour stock into pot containing onions and carrots. Bring to boil and simmer for 5 to 10 minutes, until the carrots are soft enough to puree.
5) Use an immersion or a standard blender to puree mixture until smooth. If it seems too thick, add more stock or water and reheat gently. Add salt and pepper to taste. To serve, garnish with chopped fresh thyme. Yield: 4 servings.
Vegetable Stock...from the kitchen of One Perfect Biteinspired by Mark Bittman
2 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil
2 carrots, sliced
1 onion, quartered
1 potato, sliced
1 celery stalk, chopped
2 or 3 cloves garlic
5 to 10 white mushrooms, halved or sliced
10 to 20 parsley stems or stems with leaves
2 tablespoons soy sauce
Salt and freshly ground black pepper
1) Heat oil in a deep skillet or broad saucepan or casserole set over medium heat. When hot, add carrots, onion, potato, celery, garlic, and mushrooms. Cook without stirring for about 5 minutes, then stir once or twice and cook until the vegetables begin to brown. (If you have more time, brown them well, stirring only infrequently.)
2) Add parsley, 6 cups water, soy sauce, and some pepper. Bring to a boil, adjusting heat so the mixture simmers steadily but gently. Cook for about 30 minutes, or until vegetables are very tender. (Longer is better if you have the time.)
3) Strain, then taste and adjust the seasoning, adding more soy sauce or a bit of salt, before using or storing. Yield: 6cups.
One Year Ago Today: Maple Sour Cream Coffee Cake with Walnut Streusel and Maple Glaze
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Generic Levitra With Dapoxetine (Vardenafil with Dapoxetine)
Levitra with Dapoxetine is an effective method to treat such sympthom of erectile disfunction as premature ejaculation |
Common use
Levitra with Dapoxetine effects by increasing blood flow to the penis. The pills are used by men who wants to avoid premature ejaculation.
Dosage and direction
Take Levitra with Dapoxetine orally with a glass of water 1 hour before sexual activity. Do not take the medicine more than once per day
Inform your doctor if you have the following health problems:
vision problems, heart disease, angina, high or low blood pressure, other heart problems, kidney or liver disease, stroke, an unusual or allergic reaction to vardenafil, other medicines, foods, dyes, or preservatives, pregnant or trying to get pregnant, breast-feeding
You should not take Levitra with dapoxetine if you take any form of medication known as "nitrates". It may cause serious side effects. Taking Levitra with alpha–blockers may drop your blood pressure to an unsafe level.
Possible side effects
The most usual side effects are: flushing, headache, indigestion or stomach upset, nausea, stuffy or runny nose
Contact your doctor immediately if you suffer from one of the following side effects: allergic reactions like skin rash, itching or hives, swelling of the face, lips, or tongue, breathing problems, changes in hearing, back pain, chest pain, fast, irregular heartbeat, muscle aches, seizures
Drug interaction
Do not take Levitra with dapoxetine at the same time with bepridil, cisapride, droperidol, grepafloxacin, medicines for irregular heartbeat, methscopolamine nitrate, nitrates like amyl nitrite, isosorbide dinitrate, isosorbide mononitrate, nitroglycerin, nitroprusside, pimozide, ziprasidone, certain drugs for high blood pressure, certain drugs for the treatment of HIV infection or AIDS, certain drugs used for fungal or yeast infections, such as fluconazole, itraconazole, ketoconazole, and voriconazole, erythromycin, medicines for prostate problems
Missed dose
Follow the recommended dosage to get a desired effect
In case of overdose contact the doctor imediately
Store Levitra with dapoxetine at room temperature between 15 and 30 degrees C (59 and 86 degrees F). Do not use the medication after the expiration date.
We provide only general information about medications which does not cover all directions, possible drug integrations, or precautions. Information at the site cannot be used for self-treatment and self-diagnosis. Any specific instructions for a particular patient should be agreed with your health care adviser or doctor in charge of the case. We disclaim reliability of this information and mistakes it could contain. We are not responsible for any direct, indirect, special or other indirect damage as a result of any use of the information on this site and also for consequences of self-treatment.


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The Geological Society offers grades of membership for every stage of your career, from student to retirement. Find out about the benefits of membership, and how we can help you achieve and maintain Chartered status.
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More than a ton of advanced electronics, including an ion engine and sensors that help detect variations in gravity, crashed into Earth's atmosphere Sunday night, when the European GOCE satellite ended its four-year mission. Most of the 2,425-pound craft disintegrated when it re-entered the atmosphere over the South Atlantic Ocean; about 25 percent did not.
The European Space Agency says that GOCE — the Gravity Field and Steady-State Ocean Circulation Explorer — experienced "atmospheric interface" at 7:16 p.m. ET Sunday. The satellite re-entered Earth's atmosphere less than 300 nautical miles south of the Falkland Islands, the agency said, citing data that were confirmed by NASA.
"While most of the 1100 kg satellite disintegrated in the atmosphere, an estimated 25 percent reached Earth's surface," the agency says.
GOCE ran out of fuel last month, beginning a countdown to its eventual destruction. It continued sending data to ESA through its final days and hours, yielding its observations about ocean currents as well as air density and wind speeds in the upper atmosphere.
"The central computer temperature is at 80ºC [176 degrees Fahrenheit] and the battery is at 84ºC," ESA reported less than two hours from the craft's destruction. "At an altitude of less than 120 km, the spacecraft is — against expectations — still functional."
Because its orbit crossed Earth's poles, scientists were uncertain of where GOCE would come down, as NPR reported Saturday. That uncertainty lasted into the final hours of the satellite's re-entry — an update from ESA on Sunday stated, "The most probable reentry area lies on a descending orbit pass that mainly runs across the Pacific and the Indian Oceans."
The final track of its orbit took GOCE over Siberia, parts of the Pacific and Indian Oceans, and Antarctica. Its re-entry occurred east-southeast of the tip of South America.
"As expected, the satellite disintegrated in the high atmosphere and no damage to property has been reported," ESA said Monday.
The satellite was nicknamed a "space Ferrari" owing to its sleek and aerodynamic shape, meant to help it maintain a stable orbit at very low altitude. It relied on a steady stream of thrust from an electric ion engine to compensate for any drag it encountered.
And in a bit of serendipity, as we looked around for an object to put the satellite's weight of 2,425 pounds into perspective, we found a story from last year predicting that an actual Ferrari was being built that might weigh "just 2,425 pounds." For further comparison, a Smart ForTwo model weighs around 1,800 pounds.
One of GOCE's lasting achievements is likely to be the mapping of a new "geoid," showing deviations in the Earth's surface. The European agency explains why that's important:
"A precise model of Earth's geoid is crucial for deriving accurate measurements of ocean circulation, sea-level change and terrestrial ice dynamics. The geoid is also used as a reference surface from which to map the topographical features on the planet. In addition, a better understanding of variations in the gravity field will lead to a deeper understanding of Earth's interior, such as the physics and dynamics associated with volcanic activity and earthquakes."
As for its uncontrolled descent, European officials had downplayed concerns raised by people who were alarmed by the thought of a car-size orbiter crashing to Earth at random.
"Statistically speaking, it is 250,000 times more probable to win the jackpot in the German Lotto than to get hit by a GOCE fragment," says the head of ESA's Space Debris Office, Heiner Klinkrad.
"The 1-ton GOCE satellite is only a small fraction of the 100–150 tons of man-made space objects that re-enter Earth's atmosphere annually," Klinkrad says. "In the 56 years of spaceflight, some 15,000 tons of man-made space objects have re-entered the atmosphere without causing a single human injury to date."
Copyright 2021 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


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FSFE Newsletter - January 2010
In January, FSFE was awarded the Theodor Heuss Medal as a "trendsetting organisation". This recognition for the hard work of the past years was a good start into the new year.
FSFE participated in a WIPO meeting on patents and standards, moved forward with the restructuring of the website, identified two Fellowship candidates for the Fellowship seat in FSFE's General Assembly, and much more.
Read further January Newsletter
Table of Contents
- Fellowship elections, introducing the candidates: Julia Klein and Björn Schießle
- Ongoing website restructuring
- Standards and patents at WIPO, Geneva, Switzerland, 25-29 Jan
- Fellowship Jabber meeting: "What does it mean to be a candidate for the GA seat?", 06 Jan
- December Fellowship grants In the spotlight
- FSFE honoured with Theodor Heuss Medal - "trendsetting organisation" It happened in the past
- First draft of GPLv3 presented Upcoming events
- Election for Fellowship GA seat
- FOSDEM, Brussels, Belgium, 06-07 Feb
Fellowship elections, introducing the candidates: Julia Klein and Björn Schießle
Julia Klein and Björn Schießle are the two candidates who will run for the election of the second available seat as Fellowship representative at FSFE's GA. Both have been Fellows for a few years now. Julia often participates in Fellowship events and helps in setting up FSFE's booths in Germany. Björn is active in the German translation team, takes part in the Baden-Würtemberg
Fellowship events and has a been part of FSFE's German team for several years. More information on the voting period are available at
Ongoing website restructuring
Last month we announced the beginning of the major restructuring of FSFE's website. The work is not finished yet, but as it is possible to notice by browsing fsfe.org, our webmasters team did an excellent job in only a few weeks. The visible changes are only the top of the iceberg. Many hours of work were spent on the improvement of the underlying structure of the website. You can help the webmasters team by joining them or simply by pointing out problems concerning the website.
Standards and patents at WIPO, Geneva, Switzerland, 25-29 Jan
Karsten Gerloff, FSFE's president, and Hugo Roy, FSFE's intern, participated in the meeting of the WIPO Standing Committee on the Law of Patents. From FSFE's perspective, the two most important points on the agenda were the relation between standards and patents, and limitations to patentability. In this regard, FSFE made a statement which highlights the relevance of transparent processes when discussing patent regulations and gives support to the idea of creating a working program for the discussion of limitations and exceptions of patentability, and their effectiveness in addressing development concerns. FSFE's statement is available at:
Fellowship Jabber meeting: "What does it mean to be a candidate for the GA seat?", 06 Jan
On 06 January, the Fellows met on our jabber server to hear about Torsten Grote's experience as representative for the Fellowship at FSFE's General Assembly (GA). Torsten clarified doubts that other Fellows had concerning this role, and encouraged them to run as candidates for the other available seat. The election will take place during February.
December Fellowship grants
As it happened for the application period of November, we received many interesting grant applications and deciding amongst these wasn't easy at all. However, the grants for December have been awarded to Alex Bihlmaier and Christoph Fritz, both from Germany, and Stelios Stavroulakis from Greece. They impressed us with their enthusiasm for Free Software projects and the many valuable contributions they have made so far. We welcome them to the Fellowship!
In the spotlight
FSFE honoured with Theodor Heuss Medal - "trendsetting organisation"
FSFE will receive this year's Theodor Heuss Medal for its extraordinary work for equitable participation in the information society. Since 2001 FSFE has promoted the freedom to use, investigate, modify and redistribute software in all parts of society and politics. Karsten Gerloff, FSFE's president, and Matthias Kirschner, German team coordinator, emphasised on the valuable efforts done by Georg Greve, Bernhard Reiter and Werner Koch, who founded FSFE, and by all volunteers who supported us during these years. It was them who made this success possible!
The non-partisan Theodor Heuss Foundation seeks "to bring attention to something that needs to be done in our democracy". Regarding FSFE's medal, the Foundation states: "FSFE, as a forward thinking organisation, contributes to the development and establishment of rules for good global governance." The award ceremony will take place on May 8 in Stuttgart, Germany.
Relevant links:
- http://www.theodor-heuss-stiftung.de
- https://fsfe.org/activities/activities.html
- https://fsfe.org/contribute/contribute.html
It happened in the past
First draft of GPLv3 presented
In January 2006 at MIT in Boston, USA, the first draft of the GPLv3 was presented and discussed. Georg Greve and other FSFE representatives participated at the first international conference on the GPLv3. An event that marked an important milestone towards the new version of the world's most successful Free Software license.
Upcoming events
Election for Fellowship GA seat
During the whole month of February, the election for the second Fellowship seat in FSFE's GA will take place. All Fellows will be asked to vote for the candidates and to decide who, between Julia and Björn, will join Torsten in representing the Fellowship in FSFE's highest decision making body.
FOSDEM, Brussels, Belgium, 06-07 Feb
As usual, FSFE will participate at FOSDEM with a lively and well-staffed booth. This European event organized by the community, for the community is the place where Free Software developers meet, and an event that you should not miss. Drop by the FSFE booth near the entrance and say hello! FOSDEM takes place at ULB Campus Solbosh, 50 Avenue Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1050 Brussels, Belgium. Admission gratis.
You can find a list of all FSFE newsletters on
https://fsfe.org/news/newsletter.htmlYou can join the Fellowship and find how to support us on
https://my.fsfe.org/donate https://fsfe.org/contribute/contribute.htmlYou can order our merchandise at