text:
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
Sami Zaatari Exposed?
(1) Are the emails in the video really from Sami, or is this just deception (i.e. is someone making things up to attack Sami)?
(2) If the emails are from Sami, were they from several years ago or were they recent? (I can hardly hold them against him if they were written when he was a teenager.)
The answers to these questions will certainly affect my view of the relevance of these videos. I think we should all wait to hear from Sami before we make any final judgments.
*****UPDATE***** The answers to questions (1) and (2) above are "Yes, the emails were from Sami," and "They are recent," respectively. However, according to Sami, the videos hardly present an accurate picture of events. A fuller account may be read in the comments section. It seems that an atheist was threatening Sami and his family, and that Sami simply lost his temper. The general consensus among readers here is that we won't hold this temporary outburst against Sami. I would add this: If anyone sees these videos floating around on other sites, please link to this post so that both sides of the story are heard.
*****2ND UPDATE***** Some have asked Sami to provide evidence for his claims. He sent me this picture, which shows that someone told him, on March 22nd, that his personal information had been posted on the internet.
*****3RD UPDATE***** Sami has posted an apology video, offering an "olive branch" to Sami-Z-Exposed. I'm glad we've been able to help take care of this situation rather quickly here on Answering Muslims, and I hope that everyone will accept Sami's apology.
135 comments:
David Wood, Sami emailed me today admitting to these recent emails but that the guy who is making these videos instigated the beef between the two first.
Sami asserted that this guy threatened him first so Sami reacted. - March 31, 2009 at 9:33 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
Hey David and everybody else, I was waiting for this, and have already talked to Keith about it, but it is good to explain myself here.
Well as usual, drama seems to follow me around, but this time things are slightly different than usual, this time i am actually not the very bad guy, although i am not innocent. for starters let me just state that ever since I apologized to Wood i have been cleaning my act up, this situation is very very different to the usual.
so let me start from the very beggining, if any of you visit my youtube page, you will realize that my last few videos have been targetting atheists, i am on a quest against them on youtube. Now one atheist user didnt like that, he posted a very nasty message on one of my videos saying F religion, there is no hereafter etc etc. then this atheist took it to the next level, and this is when the situation changed to real life, the atheist got my personal information from whois.com, and he started posting it everywhere, on all my videos, and he made two sock accounts spreading my personal adress.
now this personal adress had my brother and his wife living there, and this guy was spreading it around, and on top of that he was giving links on how to send HOME MADE BOMBS to the adress, so my familly was now in true danger, this wasnt a game anymore, it wasnt ur average silly argument and internet fight, this became a real life problem.
i contacted youtube, sent complaint after complaint, NOTHING WAS DONE, my famillys info is out there, being threatened with a potential home made bomb that could either seriously harm or even kill them at worst, so i became very angry, and even panicky, i had to do something, and being 21 i didnt take the correct route, i started sending out fake threats to this guy, i pretended to have his adress and said im going to spread it! i did this to scare him and put him off, all my threats were empty, i didnt do any of what i actually said, my only goal was to scare this guy, i had to do something fast to get this guy to stop making real life threats, i mean i had familly members safety at stake, and when familly is involved the whole situation changes, you dont think that straight, the only thing in your head is I HAVE TO PROTECT MY FAMILLY, and i did these very very bad messages to try and scare him. i wanted to act as sick and crazy as possible, because hopefully it would make the guy say hmmm maybe i should stop doing this, so i did just that, i acted like i was an extreme bad guy, saying 'infidel' etc etc, yet if ppl know me they will know i hardly ever use the word infidel, and back in the UAE i have a Christian living in my house, i have Christian friends, none-Muslim friends etc etc, but i had to act like i was some very bad guy who was going to hurt this man, just to scare him away and make him put my personal info away
i eventually threatened this guy legally, because although i made threats, i had nothing to hide, i am still more than happy to go to court because anyone who visits my pc will see i never actually got this guys info or spread it, it was all empty talk, him on the other hand was spreading my personal adress and making real bomb threats against the adress.
offcourse now i look back and i say damn sami u idiot, u freaking idiot, u shudnt have said those things, offcourse its much easier to say now, but at that specific moment i wasnt thinking right or clearly, your familly is in danger, and all your thinking about is i have to do something, i have do something etc etc, i cannot stress this enough my friends, when familly is involved the whole situation is much much different, its no more a game.
i could come here and lie to you all and say yeah this is fake, he made up, or oh this old stuff, but no, i want to be honest with you guys, an atheist criminal was posting my famillys personal adress, and giving links of how to send bombs there, i became very angry, and did what i did, which looking back was very stupid because i had everything i needed against him.
this whole pitiful saga has made me respect Christians even more now, because i have had beef with many Christians, but never once has a Christian stooped so low to start spreading personal info out and giving info on how to send a bomb to the place, at the end of the day this atheist proved my videos against atheism were all correct.
offcourse this puts me back rightttttt at rock bottom, things were going good, but now this atheist has dragged me down to the pits, and it does make me question apologetics and all, if its all worth it, all this cr@p, real death threats which cause you to become some bad guy as well. make no mistake, what i did was wrong, but i hope you all can understand my position, when familly is involved you will do whatever you can to protect them, i mean if the death threat was at me i wouldnt have minded so much, but it wasnt, it was familly, not me, so i had to do something.
so thats all of it, an ugly episode, another one to add to my diary, this is without a doubt the worst experiance i have had to take, its not been good at all, it does show you you must be very careful, and that there are sick ppl out there, this is when the sickness and bad stuff we see on tv became a bad reality for me. - March 31, 2009 at 9:34 PM
- Bryant said...
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- March 31, 2009 at 9:35 PM
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 31, 2009 at 9:37 PM
- Bryant said...
I forgive you Sami. Honestly, you make me so angry at times by the way you attack Christianity, but I understand how we all do dumb stuff at times. We may be each zealous for different faiths but we're both humans. You may not agree, but we're all sinners suffering from the same evil nature. I just really pray that one day you'll find the one who can truly transform you and give you a new heart.
- March 31, 2009 at 10:29 PM
- Radical Moderate said...
Sammi Sammi Sammi, you have to learn how to control your temper. This guy played you man. NOW WHAT HE DID WAS TOTALY WRONG. If anythign were to happen to or yours and it was traced back to his youtube video. He could be charged with depraved indifference or worse.
However he got your goat as the saying goes.
I can undertand how things got out of control. When ones family is threatin the blood does boil. But thats the point.
You need to learn how to "rock the baby to sleep."
You should of and still should report this guy to British and US authorities.
May the One True God, who manifests himself in three disticnt, persons Father, Son, and Spirit. Watch over you and yours and protect you from harm until your's and their conversion. - March 31, 2009 at 10:30 PM
- ben malik said...
the problem is that Sami does this to everyone who soundly refutes and embarrasses him in debate. So I don't buy his excuses for a minute. It is just another case of Islamic doctrines being put into practice such as death threats, deception and concealment.
- March 31, 2009 at 11:46 PM
- El-Cid said...
I'll be praying for the safety of you and your family Sami.
A similar thing happened to VenomFangX on YouTube recently (some of you might know who that is). An atheist published his address (parents address actually, as he is a college student living at home), and started sending him threats.
Sometimes life-lessons are learned the hard way Sami. Be safe. Be smart. These things are usually empty threats. - April 1, 2009 at 1:24 AM
- Nakdimon said...
I think the account of that dude on youtube must be removed. If he wants to make a video of Sami threatening him then it's his business, but I dont think it's appropriate to make a profile named "exposing Sami Zaarati".
If I was a youtube admin, I would have removed the profile. - April 1, 2009 at 2:19 AM
- Fernando said...
Sami... Sami... your explanationnes lack one thingue: the supporte of anything else rather of your explanation...
in any case, threating to do wat you said you would do is hawfull... absolutely hawfull...
perhaps its a typical muslim way off acting: I threat, and ONLY will do it iff they don't do whate I want them to do...
nontheless is sad... at least... I would say more things, but seeing your true colours made me very sad... - April 1, 2009 at 5:27 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
fernando there is proof, his other two youtube accounts where he was spreading the info got suspended, and hundreds of people saw it, it got suspended and taken down after i made a video making things public.
- April 1, 2009 at 6:54 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- April 1, 2009 at 7:07 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
You have my full sympathy Sami.
But keep in mind, that this is exactly the danger we Christians who debate muslims risk to expose ourselves and our families to every single day.
Without giving you too many details, I have already tried all this and much, much, much worse.
Only in the area where I live, one of my Christian co-workers has had threats against his family by the muslim community for daring to reply to their allegations and at the same time offering them the same medicine. Another co-worker has been threatened several times. A third co-worker which I met yesterday who comes from a muslim-background was only last week treathened with his life. So what am I saysing? I am saying this is common when debating muslims.
I guess this explains why Christians often are careful about their identity and often are reluctant to speak out; we put our lives at risk, even here in the West.
So now you have tried it, I hope you will understand what we go through in our attempt to respond to islam.
I hope also you understand the pressure and danger Christians undergo in muslim countries who even dare to speak up and even defend their positions. First and most their voices are silenced by the law, this is tantamount to how you guys dealt with Keith Truth under an official debate in a muslim room. Yet these Christians who speak out in Muslim countries do not only get some empty threats. They are draged off either to a police station or a madrassa school, burned with cigarretes, beaten (some to death), I saw the mark of one who had his belly openend.
Just imagine, Shabir Ally and Zakir Naik can move above the world as they like. While someone like Father Butrus operates and lives while in hiding. That certainly reveals something.
Keep in mind also, that the Christan apologetics and polemics against islam was almost unheard of in the West only 15 years ago, it was awakened because of perpetual islamic polemics and allegations against Christian and Christianity in the West, on the streets, on campuses and so on. I was chocked coming to Britain as a teenager being told not to offend and only in a nice way share the gospel and then be exposed to attacks against my faith, my book and my religion. I was chocked about the amount of Ahmed Deedat literature being passed around and being introduced to me.
To the information of muslims reading this. This is exactly what changed my approach and called me into a ministry with the goal reply to these allegations and to expose the islamic religion.
So as for me, I am and I do what I do because of islamic polemics against my own Christian faith. You can think of me whatever you like, but all I am doing is answering back. I did not start this whole apologetics thing, I saw it necessary to get involved. And I am just getting started.
In fact it is the role of Ahmed Deedat and people like him who woke up a sleeping Christian giant in the West that now rips islam into shreads, and the muslims rather than calling us islamophobists should rather thank themselves for this contribution to Christianity. We are simply responding since we have to respond, that must be our right. We have simply turned the tables and now muslims don't like it.
Notice also, and I dare to say this, you very occasionally, if you even do, find Christians imposing danger or threats against you from debating. Yet this is the case with muslims, and this certainly can happen when you debate atheists (even though that is rare too).
Hence again we need to ask: in which of all these ideas, beliefs and factions lays the nature of peace.
While Christians hate islam as a religion, real Christians will never hate muslims, we would never threat or kill a muslim for his faith or his slander of Christianity. And here you are correct Sami, Christians are peaceful, in fact as a Christian it chocks me how peaceful we are, and how much we put up with, I guess this is the Holy Spirit, which you muslims continually blaspheme who is doing his work in us. In fact rather than slandering the Holy Spirit and compare to satan you ought to do a bit more research into the things he does to people. The fact is you are not gona find any faction whether of religion or philosophy so tolerant and peaceful as the Christian faith. - April 1, 2009 at 7:11 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
I guess there is much to learn from the Holy Spirit then! Exactly transformation!
- April 1, 2009 at 7:12 AM
- Yahya Hayder Seymour said...
Lol Sami,
What have Abdullah and I been telling you about that temper of yours dude!
But yeah that atheist really played dirty, no morality at all!
I disagree with you I know many Christians who are meant to be amongst those who have the holy spirit with them, and well we haven't seen any form of transformation from them, but yeah someone will just say it's "their middle eastern way" lol. - April 1, 2009 at 8:34 AM
- MP said...
Fernando said: «perhaps its a typical muslim way off acting: I threat, and ONLY will do it iff they don't do whate I want them to do...»...
I totally agree... there's no way I ever would admit the possibility of someone delivered a dead threat to someone else... but there's the difference between a Christian and a muslim… the first return love to hate; the later more hate to hate… there're no way we can know the truth about Sami… we must read his words upon the background of his religious culture: is it inclined to hare? to deception? to lies? to intimidation? Well… there's the point…
and this does not as an impact in the fact that I, has a Christian, have already forgave you Sami… without the love of Jesus grace everyone has a stone heart… may you and your family see the light one day… - April 1, 2009 at 11:02 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
true Yahya, but you know as i said, this was a very different situation than the usual if you know what i mean, when familly gets involved........
- April 1, 2009 at 11:11 AM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
My dear Muslim brothers… do not fear this bunch of enemies of Islam who write in this blog…
They don't deserve your attention: they're just a bunch of Islamophobes… all of them… I'm here to defend the honour of Islam…
Me, The Great Ghamidi, blood of the same blood which once was in the heart of the great Saladin, will debate and defeat all Christian apologists and pseudo-apologists around this blog…
I'm the new number ONE Muslim apologist in the Internet!!!
To Sami Zaatari: even when your time as an apologist is near its end (a bunch off new stars are coming to enter the sky of the debates between Muslims and kaffirs) you have the divine right to threat everyone you wants, and no one as anything to do with that…
If you need my help I'll bee right here as the protector of all Muslim debaters…
One by one, o-n-e-b-y-o-n-e they'll all eat the dust in their own ground…
The Great Ghamidi is here for good… - April 1, 2009 at 11:26 AM
- Fernando said...
Sami... thanks for your wordes... the futur will prove or disprove themm... I hope youre true familie is OK...
- April 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM
- Fernando said...
The Great Ghamidi saide: «The Great Ghamidi is here for good»...
surelly you mean "for a good laugh"...
the blod of the blod of "Salad Inn"... is that some sort of fast foode off vegetables ore a chaine off hostels? - April 1, 2009 at 2:29 PM
- ben malik said...
By Yahya's criterion Muhammad definitely didn't have the Holy Spirit (which we already knew from the Bible). He became worse and worse as time went on.
He went from being a monogamist to a polygamist who condoned raping women who were taken captive and whose families were murdered. He stole his son's wife and blamed Allah for it. He also allowed women to be prostituted for a sum of money and called that temporary marriages. If this wasn't bad enough he legislated marriages with minors who hadn't even had their menses as documented in surah 65 verse 4.
He also became more violent and murdered anyone who would write poetry mocking him. Why we even find some of the vile curses which he spewed against many of his opponents in his very own scripture.
Yep, Yahya is right, Muhammad definitely didn't have the Spirit of God possessing him, but something else. And too bad that Yahya can excuse Muhammad's behavior by arguing that this was simply Muhammad's "middle eastern way." hehehe - April 1, 2009 at 2:29 PM
- Radical Moderate said...
Thought I would point this out to everyone. The majority response from the christians in this blog has been one of thoughts and prayers of safety for Sammi's and his family. But what does a muslim say.
The Great Ghamidi
you have the divine right to threat everyone you wants, and no one as anything to do with that…
Like I have always said let muslims speak and they will expose islam themsleves :) - April 1, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Yahya Hayder Seymour
I find it interesting that you try to pick out other peoples flaws while ignoring your own. Hypocrisy and talking behind others backs while acting nice to their face. Sami said in paltalk:
Muslim-Responses: and u never will
Keith Thompson: I was invited
Muslim-Responses: no u werent
Muslim-Responses: ur lying
Keith Thompson: by your friend
Muslim-Responses: sure u were
Muslim-Responses: who
Keith Thompson: yahya symore
Muslim-Responses: tell me
Muslim-Responses: HAHAHA
Muslim-Responses: HE THINKS
Muslim-Responses: UR AN IDIOT
Muslim-Responses: AND IS PLAYING WITH U
Keith Thompson: good for him
Muslim-Responses: he asked ME ABOUT U
Muslim-Responses: and i told him play with u
Muslim-Responses: HAHAHAHA
This is why when people call you a lying shiite I agree. - April 1, 2009 at 3:12 PM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
ben malik said: «By Yahya's criterion Muhammad definitely didn't have the Holy Spirit (which we already knew from the Bible). He became worse and worse as time went on»...
The Great Ghamidi says: how dare you to call Muhammad (PBUH) an horse? and what's the point in your reference to christian's spirit? that's a problem you have to deal among you... Muhammad (PBUH) acted always in accordance to Allah... and if Allah told him to do such and such, who are you to disagree with Him?
Fernando... I'll simply ignore your remarks... the book you christians call the Bible says: «the poor in spirit will inherit the kingdom of Heaven» and we all know, by Ridley Scott's movie "The Kingdom of Heaven" that it was my ancestor that had the last word in it…
long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 1, 2009 at 3:46 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
thefatman, i think ghamdi is just playing around............
- April 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
The Fat Man quoted me, The Great Ghamidi: «Great Ghamidi said "you have the divine right to threat everyone you wants, and no one as anything to do with that…"»...
That's right... The Great Ghamidi is already gathering support even among the kaffirs...
Long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 1, 2009 at 3:53 PM
- ben malik said...
Oops, I just noticed a mistake,
And too bad that Yahya can excuse Muhammad's behavior by arguing that this was simply Muhammad's "middle eastern way."
I mean to say can't, not can. My bad. :-( - April 1, 2009 at 5:35 PM
- IslamSINS said...
I think the question re Sami's age is moot. Most muslim males that I've observed have had their emotional and intellectual maturity stunted at the puberty level. That they are perpetual blobs of raging hormones explains why islam is firmly rooted in the locker room jock-mentality, comparing genital sizes and sexual prowess. Or, is there something spiritual in islam that isn't reavealed in the koran and sunnah?
- April 1, 2009 at 5:50 PM
- Dk said...
Yahya is known to suck up to Wood on this blog and act like a total insulting scoundrel on paltalk.
Keith you are not the only one this has happened to (he attacked me personally for believing in christianity for so long and then made some personal insults), and I appreciate you exposing his REAL behaviour.
Question: but will Wood allow this man to parcipate in the blog and debates when Wood would not accept the same type of behaviour from Sami (a while back)?
As for Sami.. your videos on atheism are laughable, a great source of entertainment. keep it up, AND NOTE: if only ONE out of thousands of atheists has reacted this way to your videos, then we would conclude Atheists have GREAT moraltity, far superior to that of the Islamics who have a much higher percentage, of violence, terrorism and threats.
Further even if NO Atheist was able to find a reason to be moral.. yet the Atheists are STILL MORE moral than todays Muslims, there is no Atheist extremist groups or Atheists who blow themselves up, oppress nations, participate in rape on a national scale. Yet there are MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims who ACCEPT and even PARTICIPATE in such behaviour still to this day.
One thing is quite clear. Atheists may have rare cases where things go wrong, but we don't have one large group of people terrorizing those who have religious, political and social difference with.. - April 1, 2009 at 6:49 PM
- Stephanie said...
In light of what Sami said, I can understand the retaliation on his behalf, though I know it wasn't right. That's scary stuff, having people threaten you, find your address and whatnot. In that kind of situation, people take one of two sides: defensive or offensive. In that particular situation, where he has your address and was spreading it around, I would have notified the police (although admittedly I don't know how law enforcement works in England). My younger brother received an explicit death threat over his online videogame a while back, after these people announced that they knew where he lived (and, to show they were serious, recited it to him). Since it was over the internet and he didn't know who these people were, we didn't report it to the police but instead reported it to the support team of the game. (But I'm frivolous in the "contact the police!" tactic because in every encounter with them, they've been nothing but helpful.)
I'll be praying for you and your family, Sami. Hopefully this guy doesn't seriously follow through on any threats. - April 1, 2009 at 7:18 PM
- Radical Moderate said...
Dk said
"Further even if NO Atheist was able to find a reason to be moral.. yet the Atheists are STILL MORE moral than todays Muslims, there is no Atheist extremist groups or Atheists who blow themselves up, oppress nations, participate in rape on a national scale."
I have to disagree with this statement. Ever here of Comunism, the or what about the Kumer Ruge, Although Nazi Germany was a relegion of its own, and their god was the state, with Adulf Hittler as prophet and semi diety. Himler and the other minons as high preists. It could be argued that Nazi Facism were atheist.
As a group; atheist moral code is based on their surroundings. Where as in islam thier moral code is based from Allah and Mohamed. in other words the morality of a atheist can change with the tides. Islam's morality is fixed in a uncivilized 7th century illieterate arab. - April 1, 2009 at 8:19 PM
On second thought Sami has not presented a single shred of evidence that this atheist threatened him with bombs or something. I believe he may have released his info, but so far Sami has not provided evidence for the other stuff.
It could be that Sami just made that up in order to deflect attention away from his terrorist like claims towards the atheist. Sami do you have any physical evidence/documentation? - April 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM
Objective morality doesn't exist in atheism but I do believe God gave you a moral code that is written on your heart. You may argue that your surroundings along with universal laws of empathy account for a moral sense but if you dive into that topic it can be shown that universal laws of empathy and surroundings do not account for morality values.
For example. We all agree rape is wrong. However the theist would say it is wrong because there is an objective law that says so written on our hearts. The atheist might say we wouldn't like to be raped so therefor thats why we wouldn't do it. That is universal empathy. However what if there was a women in a coma who was parapolygic who couldn't feel pain or emotional trauma? You still wouldn't rape her would you? Why not? I would argue that it is due to objective morality written on our hearts.
If you say it is not beneficial to evolution or something that says nothing about it being really wrong. Maybe just not socially advantageous.
What do you think DK?
btw yahya and sami cannot be trusted so be skeptical about sami's terror threats. - April 1, 2009 at 8:34 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
keith truth, his two other sock accounts got suspended, i made a video last wed, which made this public, telling everyone about his 2 accounts, and his video, where he was posting my personal info, as well as posting links to home making bomb sites, so youtube suspended both accounts of his, then he made this 3rd sock account, but this time he didnt post the bomb threats etc.
hundreds of people saw his video where he posted my personal info as well as posting links on how to make home made bombs. - April 1, 2009 at 9:50 PM
- Unknown said...
ben malik:He went from being a monogamist to a polygamist who condoned raping women who were taken captive and whose families were murdered
Then he was definitely possessed by the Spirit of Yahweh. - April 2, 2009 at 12:13 AM
- David Wood said...
Ibn's response draws attention to an important and pervasive pattern in Christian-Muslim dialogue.
(1) Christian criticizes Muhammad (for having sex with a nine-year-old girl, or for delivering a message from Satan, or for marrying far more wives than his own revelations allow, or for torturing a man for money, or for allowing his followers to beat their wives, etc.).
(2) To retaliate, Muslim attacks the God of the Bible (despite the fact that Islam declares that the God of the Old Testament is the only God), or begins blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Since many Muslims think that the just recompense for criticizing Muhammad is blaspheming God, I think we have some support for the view that Muslims have deified Muhammad. - April 2, 2009 at 12:25 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
Well Ibn has proven himself to be inconsistent in almost every sentence.
Just look at the recent blogs on Jesus' death and the resurrection, where Ibn applied atheist logic and virtually refuted his own faith.
In both subjects we totally defeated Ibn and literally shreaded his arguments into pieces, and Ibn has so far been completely unable to respond.
No wonder he ran. - April 2, 2009 at 1:00 AM
- SamiZaatariExposed said...
I would like to set the record straight once and for all. First off I am not an Atheist. Heck I had to rely on my spell-check plugin in my firefox browser just now to make sure I spelled Atheist right lol. Sami Zaatari has made several claims that are flat out not true. I never threatened Sami with bombs in my video entitled "Exposing a Terrorist Criminal". Think about it, wouldn't that be a bit of an oxymoron? Making a video exposing threats of terror and making threats as well??? The video in question was made AFTER I received threatening messages from Zaatari. I repeat AFTER! My video was made in retaliation to the video Sami made of me entitled "Exposing an Atheist Criminal". Both videos were removed by youtube. The fact is, contrary to what Sami says, I received the threats from Zaatari BEFORE I ever posted his personal info. I repeat BEFORE! The truth is Sami started bombarding my inbox with death threats so I took action. I have shown the proof. I would like to challenge Sami to, no not to a debate, but to simply make a video which proves his allegations he has thus far only verbally laid against me. So far all I have seen Sami do is talk and let me tell you, talk is cheap. I can not believe how SOME people have fallen for it. I want to see the proof Sami! Put your money where your mouth is. Prove to everyone that what you say about me is true. I never once threatened you Sami and you know it. I am a person who got fed up with your threats so I did something about it. And I might add that it worked because you are no longer threatening me or my family. Sami speaks from both sides of his mouth. Just yesterday he sent me an apologetic message for what he has done, he even asked me for advice, all the while making posts in here to the contrary. Maybe I will make a video about it. I do not feel Sami is sorry. The only thing he seems sorry for is getting caught and exposed. I have received personal messages from others who he has threatened as well. The fact is Sami has broken the law several times. And here is a tip Sami, just because you have not visited any jihadi forums does not erase the crimes you committed. Threatening someone on the internet is a crime in itself weather you make good on the threats or not. The threat itself is the crime Sami. How anyone on here can just continue to blindly make excuses for it is beyond me.
Make the video Sami. WE WANT THE PROOF! - April 2, 2009 at 1:11 AM
- ubiquitouserendipity said...
would someone with the savvy find the archives and get screenshots for days which said deleted accounts were still active? that would help solve this for y'all,,, i'm not interested in seeing it go any further myself.
sami has called everyone but me a coward and a liar and, and, and etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Jesus said that we should forgive our "brother" (read: other Christians) seventy times seven times in a day,,, though the second great commandment of our Lord states that we should love our neighbor as ourselfs, we are not constrained to continue to entertain fools, and at some point, as has been obvious here more than twice, the person whom you all are trying to nurture with your insight, wit, wisdom, faith and the Word of G d reaches a point where you realize that he's like pig-pen on charlie brown (oh no!!! a cartoon,,, yikes!!! i hear mohammedans don't like cartoons either), every where he goes there's a dark cloud hanging. there comes a point where ya' gotta' shake the dust. no grudges, but the Lord allows non-believers their eternal choice.
the violent, vehement hatred displayed, repented of, displayed, repented of (without the removal of the offending article from his site) and forgiven each time by the Christians here who wish to engage him in dialog, at some point deserves, nay demands, more than an "oh, i didn't mean it" again.
if it were up to me, and i know and am glad that it's not, i'd tell sami to come back when he really repents and comes to the foot of the Cross of Jesus, and lays down his heart, his hurt, his life, his sin. and until then, just skip on down the road little fella'.
hey sami, eternity is a long time to be wrong,,, carry on.
Peace, in His love - April 2, 2009 at 1:47 AM
- El-Cid said...
If possible please make a video that documents the other people Sami has threatened.
If this is habitual behavior, then not only is it irresponsible for people to engage in apologetics with Sami (the apologist or members of the audience could be in danger) but he should be prosecuted for any and all laws he has broken.
After watching the video I have to say aspects of what Sami did are VERY disturbing (i.e. sending a link to a picture of a non-Muslim beheaded by a terrorist, claiming to have ties to Jihadis, etc).
I think the time has come for you to back up your claims here. Obviously everyone was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but in light of what ZaatariExposed has said the burden of proof is now on you (as he has already documented his evidence of your threats). - April 2, 2009 at 2:02 AM
- Fernando said...
Ibn... whie are you attacking the Only and true God? Are you beccoming an atheiste? Its very sade to see suche thing... eben though I believe its better to be an atheiste than a muslim... Ibn: I'll be prayieng for your hearte...
- April 2, 2009 at 2:04 AM
- Fernando said...
Sami... you are lossing all your (already poore) credibility...
SamiZaatariExposed just made notice about what I previously tought about all off this...
It's to sad to see how far a muslim worshiper off allah will go... bery, bery sad...
I'll also start praying for you and your recobery...
I just can't imagine how it woulde bee to coope with this things living and studying withe peoplle who know youre actions... - April 2, 2009 at 2:08 AM
- Nakdimon said...
Dk said: Further even if NO Atheist was able to find a reason to be moral.. yet the Atheists are STILL MORE moral than todays Muslims, there is no Atheist extremist groups or Atheists who blow themselves up, oppress nations, participate in rape on a national scale. Yet there are MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims who ACCEPT and even PARTICIPATE in such behaviour still to this day..
I have to agree with you to a certain point. Atheism gets its positive tenants from Christianity. Face it! Atheism is all about not hurting the fellow human being and helping out the weak. This is not a result of natural behaviour, put in the genes by Darwinian natural selection, because that is the exact opposite: it takes out the weaker creatures among us and eliminates it so that the strongest remain.
So before atheists start boasting about morality, they should give credit where credit is due! - April 2, 2009 at 2:39 AM
- Nakdimon said...
Since many Muslims think that the just recompense for criticizing Muhammad is blaspheming God, I think we have some support for the view that Muslims have deified Muhammad.
This is exactly what I have put in my audio rebuttal to Sami's claims about the identity of Yeshua. I contrast the importance of the Father and the Son in the Bible to Allah and Muhammad in Islam and conclude that shirk is committed by Muslims in their own creed.I hope to have it online by this weekend. - April 2, 2009 at 2:46 AM
- Nakdimon said...
SamiZaatariExposed wrote: Make the video Sami. WE WANT THE PROOF!
OY! Now Sami can vindicate himself from all allegations. He has to, in my book. Let's see if he follows up.
But I will give SZE one thing that he said. "Talk is cheap" is correct, but in Sami's case talk is totally FREE! I noticed that while making my rebuttals to him about his claims about the Bible. - April 2, 2009 at 3:01 AM
- Unknown said...
ok guys i think we need to let things cool down a little...
sami-exposed guy,,,, u need to relax, hopefully no one will act on the information to go and bomb sami's place..
sami admitted his mistake, i think time to get over it...
Khayyam - April 2, 2009 at 4:01 AM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
Brother Yahya... The Great Ghamidi says: don't pay attention to the malicious words these kaffirs write against you. That's the way they have to admit that they can't do anything else to attack your muslim integrity. Our standard of life is Muhammad (PBUH)… no one else… as someone said, you may certainly think, when reading them, in your heart that «tum podex carmen extulit horridulum»…
To you, SamiZaatariExposed, The Great Ghamidi says: how dare you to deny the words of brother Sami Zaatari?!?... as The Great Ghamidi said before: even when brother Sami's time as an apologist is near its end (a bunch off new stars are coming to enter the sky of the debates between Muslims and kaffirs) he has the divine right to threat everyone he wants, and no one as anything to do with that… and where's the proof that it was brother Sami who started this escalade of threats and intimidation? And how did you dare, SamiZaatariExposed, to put in your Youtube account those pictures of brother Sami? Do you want to demonize him? You won't succeed in that! Muslim's true will overcome your attempts!!! Me, The Great Ghamidi, will do everything to help brother Sami Zaatari against your threats…
long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 2, 2009 at 4:40 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
As for me I can't say I favour any of you Sami or SamiZaatariexposed.
So far you have blamed each other.
And it is fair to say that if any of you retaliated in similar ways (and of you did) this is playing with the integrity of both of you.
The simple fact is, that whole idea of threats and exposing personal data, is absolutely not acceptable.
Sami, I must say that within the last months I began to respect you as a muslim debater. The whole incident with Keith Truth and when you consented to mute your opponent destroyed that respect (not the respect for you as a person) but as a debater.
This new episode only made matters much worse. I do hope you can regain your respect, but I wonder if any respectable Christian debater will debate you under these circumstances, but who knows, Wood, White and others are graceful individuals.
Also I think based upon your age (and you have mentioned this yourself, so I hope it is ok for me to bring it up). I consider the age of 21 to be far too young for an apologist, especially to the level you have worked yourself to.
Apologetic needs a lot of maturity, it is dangerous work, dangerous for one's safety and integrity in particular. Just imagine what could have happened if suspicion of actual terrorism would be brough up on a legal level, what then?
Yahya can lol all he wants at your situation, its simply reveals that these co-workers of yours give a heck about you and simply laugh into your circumstances.
I would blame a lot of this on your muslim co-workers in London who possibly failed to guide you in these steps particularly in your age.
Perhaps you need to lay aside the debating for a while, do some rethinking and some deeper studies. In the way you are heading now it will only ruin your attempt to accomplish anything in near or far future.
If samizaatariexposed is correct (and I am not one of those who favours the nature of his motives or methods based upon his youtube presentation which seems more like muslim-bashing and insult to me) that you began the threat, I can only suggest to you to reconsider which path islam is leading you toward.
I have met people who have worked among muslim apologists, including speakers corner in and out for years, particularly ten years ago, who also are able to share their insight into how a number muslim individuals who began like you ended up in military training camps with a terrorist ideology. I cannot say that is you, but I am concerned about the way these muslims based in London might be twisting your head.
And of course logically the attrocities your family experienced in Palestine (which is regrettable and horrific) will only boost that mindset.
The bottom line Sami: you are far too smart and good for the path you are now heading.
I want you to know that you are in my heart and me and my family are praying for you, even my church is praying for you. You may not like that, you may even tell me to seize, but we still do, and by the grace of God I believe that God through his Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ can bring about true transformation in your life. - April 2, 2009 at 4:54 AM
- Fernando said...
Sami: how cann you coope with Yahya's attitude towardes you? One thing is habing a pseudo-friend around there, another is allowing him to mock you in pubblic onlie to drag you into his waie off acting... As I saide: ?im bery sad to see where Islam is draging a clearly good person has you are...
- April 2, 2009 at 5:06 AM
- SamiZaatariExposed said...
Mr. Hogan Elijah Hagbard, I respect your stance on this. It is obvious you have been graced by god with wisdom. It seems to me Sami has much to learn from you. I have had several people who were threatened by Zaatari thank me for what I am doing. Here is a message I just received verbatim (Copied & Pasted):
"I was threatened by him in the past, roughly 7 months ago and it was something along the line of gutting me like a pig. Complete loon. Also, I think victimlesscriminal and discussislam have been threatened by this loon in the past. Oh, and I think your ratings are being attacked by votebots."
These are the types of messages I am receiving regularly. Sami Zaatari should hit the reset button, apologize to everyone he has made threats to (if he can remember them all), and just start over. - April 2, 2009 at 7:00 AM
- Yahya Hayder Seymour said...
Lol Keith,
If one of your colleagues tells me you think I'm "an idiot" or something along those lines, I would personally verify it.
Sami may have thought he was speaking on my authority but as I have said to you and to other friends of mine such as Nazam, I think your initial responses were quite well thought out.
Sami did later confer with me after having that conversation with you, and I did tell him that despite the fact I personally felt he shouldn't have debated either you or Nakdimon that both of you are actually quite good for beginners (and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense).
I give credit where credit is due and I have repeatedly said that You, Nakdimon and heck even my aqqaintance Rafa-El are good debaters, my main criticism of why I feel you all shouldn't be debated is until you condemn the rude behaviour of the rooms you associate with.
Even Sami will admit I've never said that to him, he probably just guessed thats how I feel about y'all because I denounce so many Christian Apologists as crap (justifyably for many of them I assure you).
As far as Dk is concerned, I really don't care about his opinion, I address him in the same manner in which he has addressed my fellow colleagues on Paltalk cursing and ridiculing etc.
Perhaps you are right about Sami being too young to get involved in apologetics and I agree one needs to be a representative of their religion in actions and etiquette, something which I have advised Sami on before. However Sami has come a long way since I first read his writings, secondly he has only been hanging around with the London Muslim lot since Sept 2008, so our influence on him in minimal. - April 2, 2009 at 7:34 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
for me this matter is closed, hundereds of people saw his 2 videos where he posted my personal info as well links to home-making bomb sites, youtube then took his 2videos down, this happened last week. secondly, he also started spamming all of my videos before he made his videos, he spammed every single one of my videos spreading my personal adress. his 2 videos on how to make bombs was just the last level of his attack, he kept building it up, first he spammed all my videos with personal info, then he also started spreading personal info on his sock accounts, then he also started giving links out, and then he made the 2 videos which is when i decided to make the matter public and youtube took his 2 sock accounts down.
as for breaking the law you silly criminal, in my public video i showed how you broke 3 laws which is why your not posting any of what u did before, u broke 3 laws:
1- spreading a persons personal adress with evil intent
2- breaking the rules of whois.com, whois clearly state that the info you get is FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE ONLY, not for any other illegal acts, you broke that law as well.
3- giving links on how to make home-made bombs, while giving my adress on the same video.
who are you trying to kid here? you are the devil in disguise for real, you know you are a liar, you know you are the one who started this fight with the threats, and you know i was the one reacting to you, and just like the criminal you are you have lost at the end by taking all personal information done, so i have done what i needed to do, which is stopyou from spreading personal info, but lets just say something does happen at the adress of my brothers place, we all still know where to come looking, as your the criminal who started posting this adress all over my videos and all over your sock accounts and videos. - April 2, 2009 at 10:25 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
and wow what a liar you also are, i threatened victimlesscriminal? lol me and him just had a very cordial chat on youtube a few weeks ago! i even gave him respect in my video ATHEISTS CANT DEBATE, i said one atheist didnt want to debate because he had a fair reason, and i said his nickname started with a V, referring to him, i did that because i didnt want to include him in the atheists i was attacking.
as for discussislam, i challenged him on his own video where he was talking about the prophets, i said atheists argument are weak. so get out of here with your nonsense. go get somebodys adress and start giving it out with bomb making sites on the side, you are the trerrorist, the criminal, and the coward, you sit behind your pc without showing your face but all you can do is mock me and post my personal adress, and then you have the audacity to LIE and say i started threatning you????? you are not a man. - April 2, 2009 at 10:30 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
Yahya wrote:
Perhaps you are right about Sami being too young to get involved in apologetics and I agree one needs to be a representative of their religion in actions and etiquette, something which I have advised Sami on before. However Sami has come a long way since I first read his writings, secondly he has only been hanging around with the London Muslim lot since Sept 2008, so our influence on him in minimal.
Elijah replies:
Note, ussually I am not interested to get involved in the personal issues, I am not writing all this to insult Sami or to discredit him or to destroy his reputation.
I am actually concerned about him. And I am concerned about the influence that is pushing him into such a direction. There are many psycopaths on the internet, but I know that Sami is not a psycopath.
Furthermore, this is exactly what the intellegent services are looking for; he could gotten himself into real trouble. This is not a game guys.
If he has only hanged out with you guys since 2008, whom did he hang out with before that? Osama Abdallah? Then frankly I am really getting worried.
And note again I do not hate Osama Abdallah, I pray for Osama Abdallah, and I am equally concerned about Abdallah, and he knows that. - April 2, 2009 at 10:31 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
Hogan, lol i appreciate your concerns, but dont think im an extremist or becomming one, i just had to make these empty threats to this guy to scare him off, i mean he was bombaring my videos with personal information, then he posts them on his sock account, then he starts posting links on how to send home-made bombs to the place, then he makes 2 videos putting all of this together! so i was just giving him his own medicine.
the extremists you mention in London, and not just in London, they are all over UK, i dont agree with them at all, most of them dont agree me with me, and when most of them find out about me they wont like me, they do come to speakers corner, but i never go around them, only when someone is arguing against them, and im usually beside the guy who is arguing against them. - April 2, 2009 at 10:41 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
look people, did i over-react, yes i did, i shouldnt have said those things, BUT, i dont feel bad for getting angry at the same time, im not gonna act like im the bad bad guy here, this criminal coward comes out of no where one day and starts spamming all my videos with my personal adress, he makes sock accounts which also spread the home adress and this time starts spreading links on how to make bombs, then this criminal does all of this into 2 videos.
so no, im not an extremist, you put my famillys life in danger and an ugly side of me will come out, its this guy who is the extremist TERRORIST, he is the one who POSTED LINKS ON HOW TO SEND A BOMB TO MY BROTHERS HOUSE! what is that? thats not an extremist? thats not the terrorist??? no, me, the guy who reacts to this criminal is the one we want to question for maybe being too extreme when all i did was make empty threats with no real substance.
the fact is is that 95% of people would most likely get as angry as me and say and do the same things i did in a similar situation, dont blame the guy who reacts, blame the criminal who started the fight, and this is what were dealing with folks, A CRIMINAL, when i call this guy a criminal im not just talking an empty attack, the man is a criminal, 100%, posting a persons PERSONAL ADRESS OVER THE INTERNET, you brain dead criminal, you know how many phsycos are on the net? as Hogan stated, there are many, and you you little coward u sit there behind your pc posting MY BROTHERS ADRESS ON YOUTUBE the 2nd most visited site on the world? you post my brothers personal adress ON ALL MY VIDEOS, videos that have as many as 17,000 hits, or 13,000 hits, or more 7-8 thousand hits, and your spreading my famillys info all over these videos, and then you make sock accounts and continue to spread at the same time, dont come telling me i have alot to learn, which i do, i do have alot to learn, but you do to, your a criminal and you should be ashamed of yourself, i repeat, your not a man, your not, your the devil in disguise. - April 2, 2009 at 10:57 AM
- ben malik said...
I am glad SamiZaatariExposed chimed in to defend himself against Sami's accusations. Like I said, in light of Sami's track record the burden of proof is on Sami to back up his charges, proving that he didn't start threatening violence and harm against SamiZaatariExposed. I doubt he can do it.
So Sami, PUT UP OR SHIT UP. Your tack record speaks for itself, and it shows you are not be trusted. - April 2, 2009 at 12:11 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
ben malik i dont have to prove anything to you, who has been caught lying on several occasions.
i have already stated that his two sock accounts which were spreading the info got suspended, which part of that dont you get? just because you didnt see it is not my problem, hunderds of other youtube users saw the videos and his sock accounts which was spreading the info, and youtube saw it and decided to suspend his 2 sock accounts. and i repeat, just because you aka shamoun who jay smith had to hold back from beating someone up in a bookstore didnt see it is not my problem, oh yeahhh shamoun we know quite abit about your dirty track record as well. - April 2, 2009 at 12:45 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
and here is a private message i recieved from an ATHEIST on youtube, back on March 22nd which is when all of this started:
Someone has posted your personal info ? I'm not sure if he is making it up or not,...but he has posted an address and a phone number claiming to be yours,..
You might want to remove them
(block user)
(mark as spam) Reply Delete 22 Mar 2009
this is when he made the sock accounts, on march 22nd, he started spamming all my videos with personal info, as well as posting it on his sock accounts with links of bomb making sites.
now if you read my 'threats' against him you will notice they specifically began from march 22nd, which is right after i got this message from an atheist reporting how this criminal was posting my personal adress. - April 2, 2009 at 12:53 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
Ben shaytan you must be blind as well, if you read the 'threats' i sent, you will see i mention im doing this in retaliation because he is spreading my info, did you miss that part, or maybe the atheist criminal left those parts out.
for instance here is one of the first threats i sent to him:
by the way, i promise you, that the adress u think is mine is not, so in reality you are putting someone else at risk, so continue what your doing, when these people recieve the harasment i dont think they will like it.
but i do have ur real adress, and i promise you with my life, u will be f**ked, because i see your intentions, u thought u had me and wished harm, and now i have the full right to f**k u up, and oh boy will i bring some bad things upon you for this, i will give you 24 hours to remove the info, maybe you were stupid and thought this was a game, if u want to think these are empty threats then so be it, it will be on your head not mine, i repeat, u began this. i repeat, the adress is not mine, so u are putting someone completely innocent at risk, u have 24 hours to take it down or i will f**k u so bad even ur money wont save u.
so notice what i say in my threat, i clearly say im doing this because the ATHEIST IS SPREADING MY ADRESS, i even tell the atheist he has 24 hours to take it down. so lol the threats i sent out are evidence in that i was replying to this criminal sending out my adress, perhaps the atheist left this message out. - April 2, 2009 at 1:04 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
here is another threat i sent him:
and i will continue it, im not threatning u, u started this, so i will continue it and play ur game now, all of ur info will be on jihadi forums, all of it,
so notice what i say, you can clearly see me saying that im doing this BECAUSE HE STARTED IT, and i am just playing his game! sheesh, so everybody just read the threats i gave him, thats the biggest proof availible now, you will see i am always saying i am doing this because he started it, because he started posting my adress! sheesh, the evidence is in the threats themselves, or perhaps this atheist devil left some parts out. - April 2, 2009 at 1:08 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
and here is a message i sent to him after his 2 sock accounts were taken down on march 25th:
all of my messages against you were empty heat, i dont have any of your info, i never visited any forum, anyone who checks my laptob which im sure they will, will see that. you are a terrorist making bomb threats against peoples homes
so at the end of it, i tell the guy i never sent his info out, nor did i ever have it, i was kind enough to give him this assurance, even though he is a criminal and terrorist, i still made sure to let him know that all of my messages didnt have real substance.
ladies and gents my story and side has completely been consistent all the way through, my threats and messages on youtube completely verify everything i am saying here and to others.
but this atheist criminal wants everyone to just believe that i just started sending out threats to him for no apparent reason other than because he is an atheist who disagrees with me, although the very threats i sent him refute what he is saying!!!! - April 2, 2009 at 1:32 PM
- Stephanie said...
Oh sheesh. I haven't even read through all the comments, but what I gather thus far is that neither parties are innocent. Suffice to say, this could have been handled in a mature way as opposed to stopping to threats, composing one-sided videos, etc. which they had opted for.
I'll have to read on, however. I think screencaps containing each of the emails with a timestamp would be the only sufficient proof to offer. Otherwise, this is all merely hearsay and conjecture. - April 2, 2009 at 1:32 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
stephanie i agree with you 100%, i stooped to his level, as thefatman said, he got my goat, and i went down to his level and started threatning him, although i didnt go to his complete level as i never got his personal info and started spreading it out as he did.
all the screen shots he has showed are from march 22nd March-onwards, and i have a message from 22nd March from another atheist user who is no fan of mine sending me a private message telling me about this guy spreading all of my info, which shows i began this right after i found out about his antics and his scheming. and then even read my threats, in my very very very threats u clearly see me say i am doing this in retaliation. - April 2, 2009 at 1:43 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
i will take a photo of the message i got dated march 22nd from an atheist informing me about this criminal sending my info, and i will email the pic to David.
- April 2, 2009 at 1:46 PM
- ben malik said...
Sami just proved my point. He just called me ben shaytan, meaning son of the devil, simply because I demanded he provide the proof to back up his claim that he didn't start all of this. This is what he always does when people challenge him.
And unlike Sami, SamiZaatariExposed has provided the evidence to back up what he said.
Once again Sami, PUT UP OR SHUT UP, since your insult against me only establishes SamiZaatariExposed's case against you. - April 2, 2009 at 1:50 PM
- ben malik said...
Sami's emails don't prove his case since SamiZaatariExposed already explained that he did what did ONLY AFTER Sami started threatening him.
So Sami, you ain't proving a thing by posting emails that were in response to SamiZaatariExposed exposing you for threatening him first. You even lied about him being an atheist, so God only knows how much more lies you are spewing here to cover up your true colors.
Once again, let me repeat, PUT UP OR SHUT UP SAMI. - April 2, 2009 at 1:54 PM
- SamiZaatariExposed said...
Sami Zaatari, In a previous email you sent me on March 31, just 2 days ago, you asked me for advice. Here are your exact words copied and pasted from that message:
"hopefully we can end this, i will be more than happy to take advise from you."
Here is my advice to you:
-Make a video with proof that what you say is true.
-Consider that it may be time to just HIT THE RESET BUTTON and start over.
-THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK or blog.
I know you are an angry frustrated young man. I am not sure how you got that way but I did see in a previous post that your family has suffered greatly and for that I am sincerely sorry. I am not trying to embarrass you or put you down here. I am trying to help you and give you the advice you asked for. Your obvious weakness is when you are frustrated and filled with rage and passion you start making posts and start repeating yourself over and over. I feel on some level you would agree with me on that, though maybe not openly in here. Never make decisions when you are filled with such passion without thinking it through first. Another point I would like to make is this, If you feel in danger simply because your address was made public then you might want to reconsider the things you say to people and the threats etc... The fact is you are the one who decided to make your address public when you registered it with your domain provider.
Sami, I only see only two ways for you to redeem yourself and restore your name to what it was before threats you made to me and others were made public.
If you want to continue to be taken seriously as a debater I feel you must do one of the following.
1) Make a video which backs up your statements. (Remember Sami people will always doubt what you say if you can't prove it like I did)
2) Make a video with you apologizing for your sins and misdeeds without making excuses for things you can not prove. Most people are basically forgiving and understanding ("There but by the grace of God go I").
The internet can be a dangerous place Sami. I myself never sign up for any social networking service such as youtube or make politically charged posts of any kind without going through an encrypted proxy server such as bypassthat etc... I also have peer guardian2 running at all times. This is one of the reasons I felt comfortable that the people in the jihadi forums would never find me. But I will admit I did consider the amazing feats these folks have pulled off in the past such as 911 so I was and still am slightly nervous that some of what you said could be true. This is why my wife no longer opens our mail for instance. The cat is "out of the bag" on you in my opinion. Your options are limited but the choice is yours. You asked for my advice well there it is.
May god guide you to chose the right path.
Peace on earth to everyone. - April 2, 2009 at 2:11 PM
- SamiZaatariExposed said...
One more point I want to make about Sami is that in my opinion he keeps referring to me as an Atheist to garner support from Christians. Even though this is not true, I believe that in his mind he is cleverly creating a dichotomy here; The believers VS. This Atheist. I just wanted to point that out.
Peace on earth! - April 2, 2009 at 2:33 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
hey, i have no problem, in apologizing, i acknowledge what i did was wrong, if you apologize as well i will apologize, i will be the first to apologize.
- April 2, 2009 at 2:50 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
i will make a video tonight, with a sincere apology, i hope you all view it, no games.
- April 2, 2009 at 3:06 PM
- ubiquitouserendipity said...
samizaatari said: hey, i have no problem, in apologizing, i acknowledge what i did was wrong, if you apologize as well i will apologize, i will be the first to apologize.
i'm sure i'm not the only one who has caught this bit of silliness. sami's posts in this thread are still so hate-laden, and demeaning to his audience. sami obviously doesn't respect the abilities of folks to think logically. probably because of his social inculcation in mohammedanism, which breeds into its victims a socio/psycho-pathology.
sami, you are one of the best evidences that mohammedanism is a cancer on the human heart. repent sami, come to the Lord of Glory, and rest in Him. you don't have to live with this psychic turmoil, this hatred, this anger, this darkness, any longer. and there are many here who would willingly embrace you as a brother.
again, someone with the tech savvy needs to get screen-shots from the archives.
i too am praying for you sami. not as a "lookin' down my nose, i'm better than you" gesture. but as a gesture from one old fella' who was raised with this same type of deep-seated hatred and anger. may the Lord G d of creation bless your heart and mind, and bring you to peace. - April 2, 2009 at 3:19 PM
- ubiquitouserendipity said...
in re: david's posting of a pm supposedly sent by youtube user Aceology, i just checked his channel, and lo and behold:
Joined: October 17, 2007
Last Sign In: 1 year ago
Videos Watched: 14
Subscribers: 2
Channel Views: 276
Age: 21
Country: United Arab Emirates
looks like a sock puppet account. and imagine my surprise when i saw that this supposed atheist, who seems to have no track record on youtube, is from sami's land of failed dreams and religious heresy
sami doesn't really seem to be on the level. but then, heck - April 2, 2009 at 3:30 PM
- Fernando said...
Sami... the doubts persiste: who started all this thing? So far no solide evidence from you... but as I saide before: my deepest prayeres are with you: I consider you my human brother: your suffering is also mie suffering... I hope you'll get around all this matter... an honest apology would be greatt, but perahps thst's to difficult to a muslim believer... but Sami... please: just trye...
- April 2, 2009 at 3:38 PM
I saw your new pic but that doesn't establish that he first sent bomb threats to you. I don't doubt he posted yoru address but so far you have show ZERO evidence for the bomb threat claims.
Until and unless yo show that the evidence points to him releasing your info, then you retaliating by threating to behead his family.
I hope you can provide that data Sami. In your new apology video.
Keith Thompson
www.keithtruth.blogspot.com - April 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM
- Royal Son said...
Sami Zaatari,
I have been praying for you well before this incident.
God works in mysterious ways. Allow me to say something here, because the Qur'an is not clear about this particular matter:
God's intention is for man to come to the tree of life. In reality, we have all fallen short of the glory of God. No matter how much you may attempt to justify certain actions, please realise that God's standard of righteousness is something that is unattainable be mere human means. God's desire is not for you to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Rather He wants you to receive His perfect, incorruptable, indestructible life.
I will continue to pray for you. You are very young. I have read your website sir. May I, an unprofitable slave just say to you sir, that many of the things you have said on your website concerning Jesus, Christians, and the Bible are simply untrue. I pray that you will go before God and humble yourself before Him in prayer.
Please notice, I am not even addressing the incident concerning these threats because as far as I am concerned, the flesh is ALWAYS wrong, both sides, no matter who is involved. Only God is right. Only His perfect life is right. If we want to be right with God, we need to repent, receive the forgiveness of sins, and believe into Him to receive His life dispensing.
I will continue to pray for you Sami, because God can do all things. May He extend His mercy and grace toward you.
Hogan, there has been much wisdom in what you have written brother.
To my brothers and sisters, be before the Lord before you post. The Lord knows all things. - April 2, 2009 at 4:01 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
keith truth, the videos of his got taken down, and he knows he spread them, and hundreds of other people saw them, but either way i am uploading the apology video now, it wont make excuses.
- April 2, 2009 at 4:38 PM
- Nakdimon said...
I give credit where credit is due and I have repeatedly said that You, Nakdimon and heck even my aqqaintance Rafa-El are good debaters, my main criticism of why I feel you all shouldn't be debated is until you condemn the rude behaviour of the rooms you associate with.
Yahya, I am not even associated with any room on PT accept the Answering Muslims blog room. I can be found in a lot of rooms, be they muslim or anti-muslim, Jewish, Christian etc. I would say that it is the Bible bashing room called "dialogue" between Muslims and Christians, which is actually a monologue room, that should be repudiated by you muslims. That room is a disgrace and I refrain from going there unless someone twists my arm. - April 2, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Good point nakdimon. yahya is just making excuses for his rude two-faced behavior. However we can't blame as he is just emulating Muhammad:
Ishaq:519 "Hajjaj said to the Apostle, 'I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.' Having got Muhammad's permission, he said, 'I must tell lies.' The Apostle said, 'Tell them.'" - April 2, 2009 at 5:05 PM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
The Great Ghamidi says: brother Sami Zaatari: don't make an excuse!!! That's why everyone is saying in the Net that you're becoming a weak Muslim apologist!!! That's not the path of Islam!!! You have to stand firm!!! Our straight is not based upon any human criteria: it's only based upon Muhammad's words and deeds that were commanded by Allah Himself!!! Brother Sami Zaatari: don't do that!!! It'll be the bankrupt of all the credit you still have among Muslims…If you need counselling, please email me: firstname.lastname@example.com
long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 2, 2009 at 5:11 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyPtORfT89g apology video.
- April 2, 2009 at 5:29 PM
- Ho-Logos said...
SamiZaatariExposed said :
"First off I am not an Atheist. Heck I had to rely on my spell-check plugin in my firefox browser just now to make sure I spelled Atheist right lol."
- "April 2, 2009 1:11 AM"
SamiZaatariExposed on Youtube said:
"On my channel I expose a Muslim extremist who made death threats to me and my family for making posts about Atheism he disagreed with on youtube."
- "6 days ago"
You don't sound all too convincing yourself, Mr Exposed. - April 2, 2009 at 5:31 PM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
Royal Son, I just visited the dialogue between muslim and Christian room.
The muslim speaker pointed out that Jesus was a rabbi, but argued that rabbis had to be Levites, contrary to the Biblical data which depicts Jesus from the Tribe of Judah.
Much to the ignorance of the speaker (and I was amazed to see how misinformed these islamic apologists are) the Pharisees also functioned as Rabbis and teachers and they were not Levites. For example Gamaliel was not a Sadducee but a Pharisee. Another example is Paul, a Benjamite.
It is just worth to point out that these guys actually lack the very basics of Bible knowledge and background. - April 2, 2009 at 5:46 PM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
The Great Ghamidi says: Sami Zaatari... nooooooooo!!! I can't believe you did it!!! Sami: the hate of Allah will be upon you!!! I hope that in the deepest core of it you are not being sincere!!!
long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 2, 2009 at 5:51 PM
- SamiZaatariExposed said...
What is your point Ari? I rely on my spell checker all the time. The spell checker helped me 6 days ago, so what? Speling haz never bean won of my stong soots.
I have not watched Sami's new apology video yet. I have some errands to run at the moment. When I get back, I will watch the video and report back my thoughts and future plans.
As always, peace on earth! - April 2, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Here is my assessment on the whole situation based on the evidence presented from both sides:
http://keithtruth.blogspot.com/2009/04/sami-zaatari-vs-samizaatariexposed.html - April 2, 2009 at 6:22 PM
- El-Cid said...
I'm not sure what exactly you were getting at with "Aceology" from YouTube, I guess I missed how that is related, but here is the link to the "Aceology" I know of from YouTube=
His name is spelled with an 'i', he just uses a capital 'i', which on YouTube looks just like an 'L'.
YouTube desperately needs to fix that quirk with the fonts they use.
Anyways, I don't know whose story is most accurate here.
Like I said before, some lessons in life are learned the hard way. If you learn and grow from this then ultimately it's for your benefit. And Sami, I am still praying for the safety of you and your family.
Since it seems your personal information might have been published as well, I am praying for the safety of you and your family too. - April 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM
- Fernando said...
Sami... I just saaw your video...
I'm really disturbed... it looks like you are onlie trying to avoid havinh youre reputatione in ruins...
maybe thats what the small ghamidi wants from yo, butt thate is not the pathe of truth and piece... it looks a bunch of wordes withoute ann honest backgrounde...
It was a trye, perhaps next time you'll succed in being more truthfull inn youre apologies...
I'll be praying with mie herate mingled spiritualie with yours: your pain is my pain... my Jesus' love iluminate your hearte... - April 3, 2009 at 3:31 AM
- Ho-Logos said...
//What is your point Ari? //
Obviously nothing to do with your spell checker... - April 3, 2009 at 3:56 AM
- Fernando said...
Sami... after reading, ounce again all the posts in thise treath and watching several times your video, I'm stille wondering: is this apology (?!?):
1) an apologie;
2) or a tactical move not to become an outcast in the world of debates with nonn muslims?
and you, "the tall Ghamidi", whate doo you thinke about thiss? - April 3, 2009 at 6:14 AM
- Yahya Hayder Seymour said...
I was under the impression you were associated with CP's vile excuse for a room.
KeithTruth can think what he wants, but will have to answer to God about accusing me of something which is a blatant lie. Furthermore he already knows that I have condemned him and Rafa-El for associating with that satanic room of CP. - April 3, 2009 at 9:17 AM
- Nakdimon said...
Nope, Yahya. I have nothing to do with CP's room. I barely visit that room. Don't know how you ever got that idea.
- April 3, 2009 at 10:24 AM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
The Great Ghamidi says: Fernando, I'm neither the "small Ghamidi" nor "The Tall Ghamidi"… I deserve RESPECT!!!
But I suppose this action, that I condemn vehemently unless it is not entirely true, from Brother Sami Zaatari has some parallel with what the author of 2Thessalonians 2:11: «And therefore God sends on them a power that deludes people so that they believe what is false»… you christians have this power…
The Great Ghamidi says: you are wolves in sheep's skin… Sami Zaatari as been forced to do something to appease your western values, but he'll soon regret that action… the Muslim apologists community are already in debate to see what action will have to be made to deal with this situation you have created to demonize brother Sami and force him to make this apology!!!
long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 3, 2009 at 10:25 AM
- Fernando said...
Yahya side: «KeithTruth (...) will have to answer to God about accusing me of something which is a blatant lie»... well coming that from an adorer off allah...
let's suppose KeithTruth is lyieng
if allah is the true god thenn KeithTruth, for these lies, wille enter paradise as faste ass a thunderbolte, ass faste as Muhammad, since he's the antonomasie of deceipt... - April 3, 2009 at 10:30 AM
- Sami Zaatari said...
fernando its an apology, if i wanted to be 'tactical' i would just lie and do something else.
- April 3, 2009 at 11:20 AM
- Fernando said...
Sami... I'll take youre words in ie heart... the future will bee the balance off the truthness of them...
for mee All this matter is all over.
It will onlie reemerge iff more ebidence may be presented... my most humble and truthfull prayers are for you and your familie...
to "the great Ghamidi"... no christiann forced Sami too doo whate he did... I don't know about muslim's pressures... your posted are, perhapes, some sorte off evidence that that might habe happenede... let's hoppe not... - April 3, 2009 at 1:12 PM
- The Great Ghamidi said...
Fernando --the infamous one-- said: «(Muhammad [PBUH]) is the antonomasie of deceipt...»…
The Great Ghamidi says: What an insult!!! Where ever did Muhammad (PBUH) ever lie? He was not like those prophets of yours who were always saying they received oracles from Allah (SWT) when they did not: Ezekiel 13:6 «Theirs are futile visions and false predictions, who say: A prophecy from Allah, when Allah has not sent them; yet they expect their words to come true»…
The Great Ghamidi says: who among you, christians, dares to say I, The Great Ghamidi, misquoted the book you call the Bible?
long live The Great Ghamidi!!! - April 3, 2009 at 1:20 PM
- Gay Muslim said...
Good job Brother Sami... just ignore what "the great Ghadimi" is posting... I'm sure he is the pseudo-"ben malik" in disguise: he is just trying to infuriate you… I'm very proud of you… you touched my inner self deeply…
- April 3, 2009 at 1:32 PM
- MP said...
Sami Zaatari said: «fernando its an apology, if i wanted to be 'tactical' I would just lie and do something else»...
but how do we know you're not lying in this video? I would like to believe you're being totally honest... that would be a great step from you Sami... - April 3, 2009 at 1:36 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
AL- well, i could have easily continued this saga and try to make excuses for myself, yet instead i have taken responsibility and acknowledged i did wrong and have apologized for it.
furthermore its also about attitude, not just words i say now, but how i act from now and in the future, which is if i get into a serious confrontation i shouldnt get all hot headed and act with my rage, rather keep my head and cool down and walk away or even ignore it. - April 3, 2009 at 2:04 PM
- Bryant said...
I think you need to exercise your vetoing privileges and ban "Gay Muslim" and "The Great Ghamidi" from this room. They don't look as if they are here for serious dialogue. - April 3, 2009 at 3:16 PM
- Stephanie said...
If the apology is truly sincere, than I say good for Sami! If he is lying, then that is his prerogative...if not, then no harm no foul. Hopefully this will be the end of any conflict between "SamiZaatariExposed" and Sami Zaatari; even though I'm still not 100% clear on the situation, I'll be praying for the both of you.
On another note, The Great Ghamidi scares me. - April 3, 2009 at 4:20 PM
- David Wood said...
Bryant said: I think you need to exercise your vetoing privileges and ban "Gay Muslim" and "The Great Ghamidi" from this room.
Done. - April 3, 2009 at 5:22 PM
You said:
"KeithTruth can think what he wants, but will have to answer to God about accusing me of something which is a blatant lie."
I never accused you of anything. I quoted your buddy Sami. So I guess your comment regarding judgement day refers to him not me. - April 3, 2009 at 6:33 PM
- Dk said...
Sami was lying about the character being an Atheist. Loll, sometimes i'm to trusting.
As for Nakdimon and Keith.
Nak said:
"Atheism gets its positive tenants from Christianity."
"So before atheists start boasting about morality, they should give credit where credit is due!"
First of all I wasn't boasting, I was stating a fact, Atheists don't have groups similar to the millions of Islamic Militant groups that exist, contrary alot of us are the ones who defend secularism, democracy and western values, and secular humanist principles.
Secondly Atheism doesn't have tenants, it simply means "non-belief". Nor does Atheism mean "help the weak, give charity" (although many Athteists do).
Third, Christianity doesn't get to take our NATURAL behaviour, as a social primate, (most social mammals have some kind of implict social contract, we are not an exception), and then steal our moral values and claim they actually exist independently from us.
In fact due to our natural moral empathy we can even look at the Bible and see the problematic immorality contained in it (something that David Wood even has trouble with) which proves moral opinions are derived from us and thankfully there is a large scale moral agreement, only in the name of Religion, can one have "divine permission" to act contrary to our typical nature. - April 3, 2009 at 7:37 PM
- David Wood said...
I'm wondering how much studying you've done in pre-Christian texts (e.g. the works of Plato). I'm wondering because you seem to take the core of Christian morality as something common to man. And yet, when we read the moral debates before Christianity, we get a very different picture of morality. In Plato's Republic, Thrasymachus defends the claim that justice is the "advantage of the stronger." Others define justice as doing good to one's friends and harming one's enemies. Even Socrates was comfortable with going to war to gain more territory for crops.
It isn't until we get to Christianity that we find teachings telling us to love everyone (a teaching Aristotle would have found absurd). And yet you somehow think that this simply comes from our primate nature. Have you been listening to Dawkins? He's a scientist you know, not a historian or a philosopher. Try reading Nietzsche, who understood how Christianity influenced our moral views, and who understood what it means to reject Christianity. (Rejecting the Christian moral foundation leaves a nation with something like the Nazi party.)
BTW, the reason I find certain OT passages surprising is due to the fact that I'm a Christian and I'm taught to love everyone and not to harm anyone. If you had come to me when I was an atheist and said, "Is there anything wrong with killing the Amalekites?" I would have said, "Of course not. If they're weaker, they're weaker."
But let's have a little fun. Let's say you're talking to an atheist, and this atheist says, "You know, I've been thinking about it, and I've decided to start killing people and eating them." Tell me what you would say to convince this person that he shouldn't kill people and eat them. - April 3, 2009 at 7:51 PM
- Dk said...
Some Atheists do believe in objective morality and some don't.
But "atheism" simply means non-belief. For our independent world-views you will have to look at the different atheist philosphers.
I have personally never found any universal laws of empathy, however there is a mirror neuron causing you to experience empathy. :-)
Keith said:
"However what if there was a women in a coma who was parapolygic who couldn't feel pain or emotional trauma? You still wouldn't rape her would you? Why not? I would argue that it is due to objective morality written on our hearts."
Note Keith, if you can make a determination that raping a woman in a comber, or a corpse is immoral without having this stated explictly in the Bible, I can make the same determination, using my moral judgement. This is not due to my "heart having the moral code of God" as you say since a standard does not have to exist independently of me for me to make a moral judgement that this behaviour is wrong for me, since I can determine this using my own senses.
In conclussion it maybe a belief you have that everyone shares an objective moral code, but you are making an unnessacery assumption by adding such a independant standard when it is not required to explain human morality. - April 3, 2009 at 8:03 PM
- Unknown said...
Thank you for your apology Sami. I to am sorry about some of the things I said. I'm glad it is over and we can both move on. This negative energy is not good for anyone.
I believe Sami that some day you will look back and be thankful for the valuable lessons learned. Experience is the aggregate of conscious events experienced by a human in life – it connotes participation, learning and perhaps knowledge. Understanding is comprehension and internalization. Experience is shown as the best way to approach understanding of reality and attain enlightenment. Thus, the individual events are meaningless when considered by themselves The sum of these events is thus experience.
I see no reason in pursuing this any further. I hope you choose to keep the apology video up for a constant reminder to all how two people at war found peace. Hats off for you taking the first step in making that video. I may stop by your channel from time to time just to say hi.
I am glad you have sense enough to ignore people like The Great Ghamidi. That guy speaks about himself as if he is some sort of super hero in a cape and tights. Those are the types of self-destructive lunatics you need to stay away from, but you already knew that.
Peace unto you Sami.
And everyone needs to give Sami a second chance. I believe Sami is a young man who made some serious mistakes. I think we can all look back at mistakes we made when we were 21. If I can find it in my heart to forgive Sami so should the rest of you. I rarely agree with Sami's message but he is obviously passionate about what he believes.
PS: Keith Truth, you need to practice what you preach brother. You sent me a message the other day and here it is, few grains of truth behold:
*******"Hi. I have decided to remove myself from the situation you and sami are going through. I don't want to be involved with your guys' beef. I have a ministry to focus on.
My friend, Jesus Christ said: Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Peace be with you".*******
Since you wrote that message to me you have remained VERY involved. You have taken my incident with Sami and used it to your advantage. You have created blogs and made several posts. I find that personally offensive coming from a man who claims to be so spiritually enlightened. The internet is littered with posts from you whining about how Sami rigged your debate with him. Why don't you just challenge Sami to a debate with a moderator you both agree on? Keith I really hope you can move on like Sami and I have decided to do. There is more to life than holding regrets forever. You're free to be Siddhartha like you he lived both sides. Beggar pick up your crown.
J. Cantrell
Formerly known as SamiZaatariExposed
THE END - April 3, 2009 at 8:38 PM
- SamiZaatariExposed said...
I am the blogger Anti Astley.
- April 3, 2009 at 8:52 PM
- Dk said...
David Wood said:
"you seem to take the core of Christian morality as something common to man."
"It isn't until we get to Christianity that we find teachings telling us to love everyone (a teaching Aristotle would have found absurd). And yet you somehow think that this simply comes from our primate nature."
David the problem is your assumption that our core moral nature is in alignment with Christian principles.
Case in point:
love your enemy, bless those who curse you, turn the cheek, pray for those who persecute you.
These are all counter-intuitive to our nature, troubling and disturbing as well. You might blame my rejection of these commands on my "sinful nature", but that would only prove my point that Christian Morality is not in alignment with our "core moral nature" as human beings.
Finally David said:
"But let's have a little fun. Let's say you're talking to an atheist, and this atheist says, "You know, I've been thinking about it, and I've decided to start killing people and eating them." Tell me what you would say to convince this person that he shouldn't kill people and eat them."
Firstly I would need to know if the causes for them wanting to kill and eat arent the effect of insanity.
Secondly I believe that convincing someone of something about morality presupposes some common cognitive or mental equipment, so the person would have to share this ability. for e.g. consider sociopaths have been proven to not have some parts of their brain active that are involved in empathy and emotional responses related to it.
Third, I would try and find common moral principles between me and them and see if I can argue from those that killing and eating people is wrong. else there is nothing I can do to convince them.
Fortunately since most of us agree that its wrong we would prevent this guy from acting it out. - April 3, 2009 at 9:00 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
Thank you Mr Cantrell, the apology video is staying up, im never going to take it down, it will be a good reminder for myself and an example for others. and again, i am sorry for everything i said, there are no excuses.
- April 3, 2009 at 9:16 PM
- Sami Zaatari said...
Also let me say a thank you to David Wood, thanks to you it allowed us to end this.
- April 3, 2009 at 9:23 PM
- Royal Son said...
Sami Zaatari.
God bless you. You are in my prayers. - April 3, 2009 at 10:00 PM
- David Wood said...
DK said: "David the problem is your assumption that our core moral nature is in alignment with Christian principles. Case in point: love your enemy, bless those who curse you, turn the cheek, pray for those who persecute you. These are all counter-intuitive to our nature, troubling and disturbing as well. You might blame my rejection of these commands on my "sinful nature", but that would only prove my point that Christian Morality is not in alignment with our "core moral nature" as human beings."
It's not my view that Christian morality is common to humanity (though I believe that God has written some of the moral law on our hearts). I was simply responding to the typical atheist claim: "We don't need Christianity to be moral. We can have compassion, love, etc., without Christianity, simply by basing these things on our primate nature." My response is that compassion and universal love only came on the scene with Christianity, and that this doesn't seem to be a coincidence. But if you're agreeing with me that these values aren't part of human nature and can't be defended on atheism, then I agree completely.
You gave four responses to my request that you explain how you would convince an atheist cannibal not to eat people. You said: (1) you would make sure he's not insane, (2) you would make sure his brain is functioning properly, (3) you would appeal to shared moral principles, and (4) if all else fails, you would force him to do what you believe is right.
In response to (1) and (2), let's say our atheist friend reasons as follows: "There's a shortage of food in the world. But there's no shortage of humans. Thus, if we view humans as food, we can help end the food shortage. Since there's no compelling reason (given atheism) to believe that humans have any intrinsic worth that would rule them out as a food source, I've decided to eat humans." This reasoning doesn't require insanity or a defective brain.
Now, what moral principles could you possibly appeal to in such a situation that would convince the atheist cannibal that he shouldn't eat people? If you can't come up with something, you're left with forcing him to obey the majority. But now we're back to Thrasymachus: "Justice is the advantage of the stronger." If morality is simply the advantage of the stronger party, what could you possibly do when cannibals outnumber you? Or when child-molesters outnumber you? What could you have possibly said in Nazi Germany? It seems the only thing you could say would be, "Hey guys, I don't like what you're doing. But it's just my personal preference." - April 3, 2009 at 10:08 PM
You said:
"Note Keith, if you can make a determination that raping a woman in a comber, or a corpse is immoral without having this stated explictly in the Bible, I can make the same determination, using my moral judgement. This is not due to my "heart having the moral code of God" as you say since a standard does not have to exist independently of me for me to make a moral judgement that this behaviour is wrong for me, since I can determine this using my own senses. In conclussion it maybe a belief you have that everyone shares an objective moral code, but you are making an unnessacery assumption by adding such a independant standard when it is not required to explain human morality."
Your second premis does not follow the first. Humans being able to make a moral judgements without reading the Bible does not mean personal preference causes one to not do moral atrocities when empathy isn't involved (e.g. the women in the coma example). If you are going to say you wouldn't rape the women in the coma because it is just wrong for you, as you did, then you are implicitly admiting that there is nothing really objectively wrong with you raping the women. It is just subjectively wrong to you. I think if you look deep inside yourself you will find that it is really wrong to rape that women, regardless of what a few wackos might say. And then you realize that there are other minds like yours around the world who are not subject to the same social structure, who would agree that it is really wrong, you will realize that objective moral values exist.
Thus the argument goes as follows:
1. If God does not exist,objective moral values don't exist.
2. Objective moral values exist.
3. Since objective moral values exist, God exists. - April 3, 2009 at 10:58 PM
And just because there are people who would commit the atrocity I spoke about, that does not mean it is not written on our hearts that it is wrong. It just means people ignore that internal feeling or whatever you wish to call it. - April 3, 2009 at 11:00 PM
- Anthony Rogers said...
Re: Cannibalism
Richard Rorty once required his students to write a paper responding to the following:
"Aliens from another planet, with vastly superior intelligence to humans, land on earth in order to consume humans as food. What argument could you make to convince the aliens not to eat us that would not also apply to our consumption of beef?"
Reflecting back on that some time later, Greg Mankiw, a professor of Economics at Harvard University and a former student of Rorty's, said the following:
"I can't remember what I said in the paper, but I remember becoming a vegetarian for several weeks thereafter. My carnivorous ways eventually resumed not because I figured out a good response, but because I ignobly put the question out of mind."
Romans 1. You've gotta love it. - April 4, 2009 at 12:29 AM
- Fernando said...
Doctor Wood: I respect all your decisions, and I don't knowe what to thinke about the "The Great Gamidi" -- his he jokking? being seriuos? I sent an email to the email he posted here ande someone wrotte me back saying he didn't know anything about a "The Great Gamidi" --, but I have neber felt that "Gay Muslim" as been unpolity or rudde... Yes: I notice that his postes are always bery peculliars, butt perhaps it's just the waie a muslim with homosexxual tendecies has to be to delt with whate he may be suffering... I don't know, but felt that I hade to express mie humble opinionn...
- April 4, 2009 at 5:55 AM
- Dk said...
Hey guys, i'll try and respond to the rest of the comments tomorrow but for now Keith argues that since some moral principles transcend human culture, e.g. in several societies we can find laws forbidding rape this means that objective moral standards exist.
Keith then excuses the exceptions to this rule by arguing the people who do rape(rapists) must be ignoring there internal feeling. (assumption).
The problem with this is that i've pointed out already that this is not the case, e.g. sociopaths have been proven to not have some parts of their brain active that are involved in empathy and emotional responses related to it, thus it is impossible for them to experience an internal feeling causing them to think negatively of rape. How then could these individuals be held "objectively" accountable for their actions? They have no such stimuli causing them to feel negatively about it.
Furthermore how do we know that the laws that transcend "culture" (not humanity) need a divine explanation, when we could using ockhams razor, just as easily explain this naturally, meaning since nearly all human beings share similar empathetic experiences, we would expect to find similarities among cultures. - April 4, 2009 at 7:44 AM
- David Wood said...
Gay Muslim used to come on this site making homosexual suggestions towards the Muslims here, e.g. "Yahya, I think you're so sexy." Some of them are still up, but I usually removed them.
As for the Great Ghamidi, I don't think he's a Muslim at all (let alone a Muslim apologist). He sounds like someone who's doing a poor job of mocking. He's already sent me a note saying that if I block him, he'll simply come back under a different name. - April 4, 2009 at 10:46 AM
lol David Wood
Notice what you did there. You had to pick out a minority (sociopaths) and examine them. You implicitly admited that the majority recognize transcendant moral laws except there are exceptions to the rule. All that means is that there are a few fringe people who who have a de facto moral code and or condition poreventing them from the norm (e.g. moral awareness). Sociopaths without empathy still won't do certain things. What does that tell you? Noting that a small minority of sociopaths may not experience empathy does nothing to explain wether or not there is still an internal awareness of objective morality. For many of the Nazi sociopaths who killed the Jews killed themselves after out of guilt. Indeed if it is your position, DK, that the holocaust wasn't actually objectively moraly wrong despite what a few hate driven fanatics might say; there is something wrong. Many of the brainwashed sociopaths knew what they were doing was very wrong. That is why there were so many Nazi suicides despite the propaganda machine in Germany that allowed many of them to commit the acts. But notice that too. If it were not for the propaganda machine in Germany most of the Germans would have rejected the atrocity. But because the Nazi leadership knew people had transcendant morals, they knew they had to break through them with propaganda. If there was no objective code, no propaganda would be needed. But as history shows, there was amassive propaganda campaign aganst the Jews that was needed to brainwash the people into ignoring or abandoning their moral values. - April 4, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Yayhe said:
' I have condemned him and Rafa-El for associating with that satanic room of CP'
Rafa says:
You can comdemn me for whatever you wish for.But my challenge is still standing..I hope you will accept my debate challenge like you agreed to.
Besides that..Did you comdemn Gomaresdubar (the monirotor of the eastern debates) aswell? for dotting me in the middle of our debate and resulting into personal attacks? A little bit of consistency would be appreciated. - April 5, 2009 at 10:35 AM
- Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
What, do we have more reddoting of Christians in offical debates?
Tell me about it. - April 5, 2009 at 1:35 PM
- Nakdimon said...
Hogan, you bet rafa got dotted. Gomer wanted to get smart on the mic and Rafa put him on his place so that he really had to defend his prophet. But since he couldn't do that, he dotted Rafa. You can find it here:
Be warned, it is very short.
Nakdimon - April 5, 2009 at 2:03 PM
- Fernando said...
Rafa-el_1... don'te loose one seconde off your timme explayningue yourselfe to the pseudo-intellectual Yahya Seemore... he has rebealed himself as someone allwais acting in the samme way: "I say X"; "I did not say X"; "Iff I saide X, I apollogie"; "As I saide before: I apologiesed for saying X"; "Whie are you insistng in saying I saide X?"...
Yahya Seemore is, I habe been told, a good person, butt the facte is tha beingue him a xiia, makes him not bery well apreciated by other muslims who consider him an heretical, what, I recon -- butt I can be wrong -- makes him very sorrow...
Doctor Wood: thankes for your explanation...
About Muslim Gay: iff he's a really guy person, the fact he expresses his feelings about other men, should not be of surprise, whether I would like to see them directed towards me or not... perhaps the onlie way to deel with a big sinner is expression our biguer love towards him... but the problem is that we onlie deel with him through his actions, and its these that should be puted in balance: are them creating problems to your blog? Only you can say...
Finally: good easter's week to you all... even when it's strange how the most importante celebration to uss Christians in totally denied, anr repudiated by muslims... - April 5, 2009 at 3:46 PM
- Anthony Rogers said...
I noticed that not only did Gomer make a false comparison between Elijah's desire to die and Muhammad's intention to commit suicide, which you pointed out, but he also skirted the fact that Muhammad desired to do so because he perceived himself to be demon possessed, while Elijah labored under no such notion.
Too bad you got dotted and weren't able to respond further. In any event, great job. - April 5, 2009 at 6:17 PM
- ubiquitouserendipity said...
el cid said: ubiquitouserendipity,
I'm not sure what exactly you were getting at with "Aceology" from YouTube, I guess I missed how that is related, but here is the link to the "Aceology" I know of from YouTube=
His name is spelled with an 'i', he just uses a capital 'i', which on YouTube looks just like an 'L'.
YouTube desperately needs to fix that quirk with the fonts they use.
Anyways, I don't know whose story is most accurate here.
me: sami claimed that a youtube user, aceology emailed him to warn him of his address being posted. the aceology i found was coincidently from uae, and hadn't signed into his account in over a year. your aceoIogy may be the correct one.
i could never have any confidence in the words of anyone who follows a seventh century pedophile, misogynist, xenophic, and demon-possessed pagan rock worshipper. never/anyone - April 5, 2009 at 10:38 PM
- Yahya Hayder Seymour said...
I've already accepted your challenge to debate you here in London on the topics we have appropriately discussed. Secondly I have already condemned Gomer, so perhaps one could stop demanding something which has already been met. - April 6, 2009 at 12:27 PM
exactly Semper,
Gomar didn't follow trough on his words, and he knows it!
He started off stating that he would debunk me so badly that etc...
Yet he failed to make a valid comparisson between muhammad and Elia.. One (elia) being humble and putting his faith and destiny in the hand of the Lord the other(muhammad) taking controle of the siuation and trying to end his own life...like judas iskariot and the swines in the Gospel.
Put this is quite normal practische in there (islamic) rooms.To dot there opponent to prevent humuliation and refutation. - April 6, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Yayha said:
'I've already accepted your challenge to debate you here in London on the topics we have appropriately discussed'
Rafa says:
I am glad to see you accepting my debate challenge,But what topics are you talking about?I proposed to debate you on the topic :
Has the Quran been preserved perfectly?
If I remember correctly you declined to do this topic.Are you accepting it now?
If so, we can plan the debate as soon as possibel. - April 6, 2009 at 2:38 PM
I saw that dialogue with you and that "apologist" gomer. What an obnoxious guy he is wow. Anyway you exposed Muhamad very good and I if you ignore gomers empty rhetoric and unjustified bold emotion and just look at is actions, ou see this:
1) You made a good case against Mo.
2) Gomer's reply was not analagous.
3) You pointed that out.
4) He dots you and bans you.
Thats what objectively happened. Yet the muslims in there (who obviously have no regard for truth and only want street arguments) probably didn't catch what really happened. In their eyes it was probably a big victory for Islam.
Anyway take care.
Keith - April 6, 2009 at 10:08 PM
- Michelle Qureshi said...
I'm planning on debating that topic (the perfect preservation of the Quran) either in May in the US, or in July in London (or possibly both). Just a heads up for you.
-Nabeel - April 6, 2009 at 11:23 PM
- Michelle Qureshi said...
Hey, I can't see the video that all this hubbub is about - I wasn't able to watch it till just now, but now it says the account is down. Anyone know of an alternative place to watch it?
- April 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM
- ubiquitouserendipity said...
Sami Zaatari said...
Thank you Mr Cantrell, the apology video is staying up, im never going to take it down, it will be a good reminder for myself and an example for others. and again, i am sorry for everything i said, there are no excuses.
April 3, 2009 9:16 PM
Blogger Sami Zaatari said...
Also let me say a thank you to David Wood, thanks to you it allowed us to end this.
April 3, 2009 9:23 PM
dear sami,,, may HE Who abides in unapproachable Light, Ha'shem Adonai, the One True and Living G d of creation, the I AM of the old and new covenants, bless your heart and mind, and bring you to know Him, and His love and peace. in Jesus' Name
Peace, in His love, joe - April 7, 2009 at 12:32 AM
Nabeel said:
I'm planning on debating that topic (the perfect preservation of the Quran) either in May in the US, or in July in London (or possibly both). Just a heads up for you.
Rafa says:
Don't worry brother,I noticed you approch the subject from hadeeth and commentaries.I will approch the subject in a very different matter. - April 11, 2009 at 10:35 AM