text:
So Michel Foucault and Jeremy Bentham walk into an elementary school cafeteria*
By Lesley | May 12, 2011
Five elementary schools in San Antonio are embarking on a "research project" which amounts to extensive surveillance and measurement of students' lunchtime eating habits.
"We're trying to be as passive as possible. The kids know they're being monitored," said Dr. Roger Echon, who works for the San Antonio-based Social & Health Research Center, and who is building the food-recognition program.
Here's how it works: Each lunch tray gets a bar code sticker to identify a student. After the children load up their plates down the line — cole slaw or green beans? french fries or fruit? — a camera above the cashier takes a picture of each tray.
When lunch is over and the plates are returned to the kitchen, another camera takes a snapshot of what's left. Echon's program then analyzes the before and after photos to calculate calories consumed and the values of 128 other nutrients… Parents will receive the data for their children, and researchers hope eating habits at home will change once moms and dads see what their kids are choosing in school.
Damn, this is one aspect of our dystopian future that Blade Runner failed to anticipate. I consider myself a pretty jaded and cynical person on these matters, but this project has left me gobsmacked in a way I haven't been for quite awhile. It's partly because I grew up as a continuously dieting child, feeling as though every morsel I put in my mouth was always being scruntinzed and assessed—a belief that led to some significant disordered eating, and one that I still have occasional trouble shaking, even in my mid-30s. But it's also because there are inherent psychological effects to constant surveillance, and as the project leader says above: "The kids know they're being monitored."
Back in 1795, a philosopher named Jeremy Bentham conceived of a new design for prisons, one that was meant to enforce order by creating a space in which every inmate could be watched at all times, while the watcher could not be clearly seen. He called it the Panopticon. In this environment, the possibility of being watched was always present, and this served as an invisible disciplinary influence. The building was circular, with a guard tower in the center, and the cells ringing the outside edge, facing inward. The fact that every cell could hypothetically be seen at all times meant that every prisoner lived under an omniscient eye.
A couple hundred years later, French poststructualist theorist Michel Foucault would seize on the Panopticon in Discipline and Punish as a metaphor for society's need to produce "docile bodies" to be functional workers and soldiers. Culture, according to Foucault, accomplishes this using disciplinary systems similar to the Panopticon, in which each body may be observed and assessed at any time. This has a controlling and normalizing effect, in which bodies are encouraged to meet expected standards at all times. Think CCTV systems, or Big Brother. If one is never sure if one is being watched, it makes one less likely to openly transgress the rules.
I'm also inclined to argue that this arrangement ultimately results not only in the self-policing of one's own behavior, but in a broader social system that expects and rewards the individual policing of others' bodies and behaviors. Those who subvert social norms are, ostensibly, people who have forgotten that they can be seen, publicly, at any time. Therefore, when they transgress social norms—by expressing physical affection for a person not visibly coded as the opposite sex, for example, or by being fat and rejecting social and bodily invisibility—they need to be reminded of this omniscient social gaze, and in the absence of institutional discipline, must be punished so they do not transgress again. This is the mechanism by which a dude who sees me in a vividly-colored dress, walking alone as though I either don't know or don't care that I am defying bodily norms, feels compelled to scream "UGLY FAT BITCH" at me. He is applying social discipline and teaching me a lesson: Everyone can see you, and your body and/or behavior are unacceptable.
To some extent, the San Antonio experiment is a natural extension of this omniscient, unequal gaze. It doesn't matter that the children will not be disciplined by the school for their choices; supervision of any kind carries with it the implication of punishment, and children know this as well as any group of people. This is how we have defined what it means to be watched, socially and culturally. When we are watched, we know there is a particular "correct" behavior to which we are expected to adhere, and to do otherwise is to risk punishment. It is disingenuous to suggest that being "subtle" about the surveillance will somehow counteract the students' awareness that they are being observed. Subtlety is actually likely to make the students more conscious of their observation—as in the Panopticon, the reality of a watcher who can also be observed is a less powerful impetus to discipline than the possibility of a watcher who is invisible.
The fact that the results are shared with the children's parents makes this doubly watchful: the children will know that not only is their school keeping track of what they eat, but their parents will know as well, while their parents will know that the school is watching their child's food intake, and may feel inclined to discipline or otherwise instruct their kid to choose appropriate foods for the sake of appearances. This reaction will vary dramatically amongst parents, but the possibility is there, and possibility is what all this omniscient gazing is all about.
The project is explicitly focused on schools in poor and minority areas, as these groups are considered to be at higher risk of both the fat and the diabetes.
Researchers warn that obesity is not always the result of children eating too many calories. A previous study by [the same nonprofit center running the surveillance project] reported that 44 percent of children studied consumed calories below daily minimum requirements, but nearly one-third were still obese. Seven percent screened positive for type 2 diabetes. [Emphasis added]
It all has a disturbing guinea-pig aspect to it, doesn't it? Obviously these are scientists who are confused by how a lower calorie intake could still result in obesity. But clearly it must have something to do with their eating habits! We simply aren't scrutinizing them closely enough! Let's scrutinize them really really closely!
I have no idea if this experience will have any serious long-term consequences for the kids in question, at least not any that they wouldn't already face by virtue of growing up and living in our food- and weight-obsessed culture. My fear is that said kids will develop an overly sensitive consciousness of their eating habits, which can develop into disordered eating patterns with a terrible quickness, but I don't know if that will happen, and it's impossible to guess without interviewing the students involved after the fact.
What shocks me about this experiment is not that is seems so outrageous, but that it seems so unsurprising. Our preoccupation with food has eclipsed our ability to see the alleged Obesity Horror from any other perspective. It must be something we're eating; ergo, it must be an individual problem caused by individual behavior, accountable to individuals. But what if it's not? Is that a possibility we can even grasp? Is there a return on this investment big enough to justify the hypothetical cost to the social and psychological development of the kids being watched? I just don't believe that knowing the precise measurements of a child's half-eaten pile of mashed potatoes is going to bring us any answers. It certainly won't bring us any solutions.
* Stop me if you've heard this one before.
A big fat tip 'o the hat to Lisa for emailing me the link to this article!
61 Comments
That's horrifying. The first thing I thought was, "What a great tool for abusive parents! They can now abuse their children for eating too much or too little at school! Or for not eating the 'right' things!" You know, in addition to all the other made up excuses they have for abusing their kids.
O_o Holy shit. When I read the bit about the barcodes and images I thought, "Interesting, they're doing some serious tracking on what actually gets eaten / used, that should assist with resource allocation / purchasing decisions / recipe development." But then came the mailing it to their parents bit, and… wow. This whole thing is fucking creepy.
Exactly – the initlal read for me was all about seeing what menu items get eaten, what gets tossed on days when it's colder or hotter, etc. Well and good. But the linking of data with each kid – holy mother of god, this is repulsive.
Same here. Closely monitoring what kids actually eat for research purposes is one thing, but legitimate medical/social research doesn't generally mail the results to anyone in mid-study…
Ironically to avoid this sort of thing while in school I never ate there, and simple read a book during lunchtime.
Also, Lesley! Imagine if it's something wrong
With our culture?! What would we do then Lesley?! No…no…it must be the individuals doing something wrong, clearly plus-size people did not exist until now….
One might call it… the Spamopticon. BAH HA HA.
Seriously, though–this is super creepy. 1984 much? Gad.
With everything else that's wrong with this plan, I honestly don't think they're going to get the kind of results that would truly be useful (if such information would be useful, which I highly doubt).
I don't know about TX, but in my area, lunch and recess have been getting pared down more and more over the years, and schools – realizing that you can't tell little kids to sit still for six hours in a row without giving them a chance to run off some energy along the way – wind up opting to cut back the amount of time available for lunch in order to shift an extra five minutes into recess.
So at my kids' school, they get 20 minutes for lunch. And not, they get to sit down for 20 minutes. Twenty minutes including getting their lunches, sitting down (tables are assigned by class), eating, discarding garbage/leftovers and putting away trays/lunch boxes, and lining up for recess.
Under those conditions, OF COURSE kids will opt to eat their "desserts" first, and otherwise focus on foods which are "preferred" and/or easier to eat, over foods that are less calorie-dense and take more time to eat.
I think, as adults, it's easy to think, "Oh, come on, 20 minutes isn't that bad." But it's rarely asked of us, either. This past winter I had a seasonal job that, for some shifts, only offered a 20-minute break for lunch. During that time I was to get to the cafeteria, procure food, eat, get things put away, make a bathroom stop if needed, and get back to my desk.
I learned that buying food at the little cafeteria was absolutely useless. Admittedly, I am a slow eater, but still – by the time you chose what you wanted, and stood in line to pay for it, you'd lost 3-8 minutes. One day, my well-meaning hubby packed me a sandwich and a thermos of soup. That night, I told him that soup takes too long to eat. From that point on, I stuck with sandwiches and string cheese. Even chips and crackers were too slow to eat during that 20 minute lunch.
So, even IF the rest of this program weren't garbage (though it totally is), the people setting it up are just not going to get useful information, based on the lunchtime conditions that are common at many schools.
(Whew! Sorry for my rant!)
The 20 minute lunch was a practice at my kids' grade school as well. Since they are slow eaters they never managed to finish their lunch and ended up hungry at the end of the day. This practice seems to encourage unhealthy eating habits which seems odd considering our fat obsession. Just shows that health really isn't what society is concerned about here.
Not to mention the fact that, left to their own devices, kids can be the slowest damn eaters on EARTH. I've eaten lunch with my nearly-3yo niece before. It takes her twenty minutes to eat a pickle. And I've volunteered in schools where students only have that 20-minute space of time to both eat AND get their one recess of the day (i kid you not). So it comes down to eating a full lunch or getting some of their excess energy out. And they go to their next class and can't focus because half of them are starving and half of them are still wound up.
That was me as a kid, every day of elementary school: do you want to eat lunch, or do you want to go outside and play with your friends? There was no time to do both. And by the time 3 p.m. rolled around, I would have cheerfully eaten my own arm.
I don't know what the researchers hope to find from this, but it seems fairly pointless to run any studies when the children know that they are being monitored; especially if the children know that as a result of the monitoring their parents will also know what they're eating.
Frankly, it seems just as easy to give each child ALL of the choices on their tray (fries/carrot sticks, pudding/apple, and a main entree, what have you) and then have the kids return the tray and from there you can see what they ate, didn't eat, etc. down the line. Then just label each child's tray 1-however many. BUT you can't run any research when the kids know they're being monitored, unless you want to see how kids will react to the knowledge that they're being monitored. UGH.
I'm outraged! I want to do something about it, but don't know what I could do. And I guarantee that this will make at least one child's life a lot more stressful than it already would be, because mine was bad (food-wise), and the added level of surveillance would have added an extra level of tension.
There are at least 2 glaring problems with this study.
First, which you allude to and has been known by animal behaviorists for a very long time, whenever an animal is being observed its behaviour changes. This includes all animals. So their research project is crap. The kids will not respond in the way they would if they weren't being watched. Any data they get will be essentially useless .
Second, and this is the most disturbing; low socioeconomic schools were intentionally chosen. It is not uncommon that the only food these kids get all day long is from school. This problem is so widespread and so well-documented, that almost all school districts have summer lunch programs so that kids don't STARVE TO DEATH during the summer. I have seen kids cry at the thought of an upcoming weekend because they know they are going to be so damn hungry. What kind of sick individuals think that there is anything to be gained from tormenting these students? And the poor parents, I can't imagine what the pressure must be like on them to conform and have their children conform. Schools are supposed to protect and nurture kids.
Wow, I didn't even think of the implications of the socioeconomic factor. In the case where kids are only able to eat at school, I would assume that they have an instinct to go for the high-calorie high-fat foods just so that they're not hungry.
So, the only end result that I can see from this is that you're going to have the poorest kids either starving by eating the "best" foods or risking shaming from choosing "bad" foods.
Apparently I've lived in a bubble all my life because that thought wouldn't have occurred to me. 🙁
I didn't know this. I grew up in a fairly priviliged area in Australia. It wasn't private school or anything, but everyone I knew had enough food, and could even get something from the canteen every now and then.
Oh man, that is so awful. My heart breaks for those kids who don't have enough food at home. Being a kid is hard enough without being hungry all the damn time.
Ridiculous. My oldest takes his own lunch because 20 minutes isn't enough time for him to get lunch, find a seat and then eat it. When will they be monitoring his brown bag I wonder.
And also, if they are going to snap a picture of what's left on my middle child's tray, I want a refund of the food he didn't have time to even touch, let alone nibble on, in the 20 minutes he has in the lunch room.
And what about the kids who trade food? I'll give you my jell-o for your chocolate milk. There are so many flaws in this study it's mindboggling.
That's exactly how it is with my older child who is in Jr. High. She takes her lunch because there is simply not enough time for her to eat if she also has to wait in line.
Actually, at some schools they are phasing out kids taking their own lunch – making school lunch mandatory.
What?? They are making eating that crap mandatory? Ridiculous! So now these kids can't even bring their own healthy/ethnic/veggie/etc food?
I write on Foucault and it seriously scares me how on target he always was. If you guys haven't read Discipline and Punish, I *highly* recommend it. Reading group, anyone? 😉
Factor in – on top of all the excellent points above – the unfailing perversity and creativity of resentful children, and just imagine what might happen.
I know for a fact that had I been confronted with this situation in school I would have gotten together with my best friends and spent hours devising the most ridiculous leftover swaps in the world. We probably would have brought vegetable peelings and bits of leftover meat and candy wrappers 'borrowed' from siblings… whatever we could think of… along with a few pencil shavings and other inedible things, just to annoy the panopticon and emphasize our freedom of will.
And you know what else? My parents would not only have applauded my efforts, they would have aided and abetted them, too.
That when my mother was president of the Board of Education.
That was my first thought too — that the system seems ridiculously easy to break. Just stir all your leftovers together! Swap them with friends! 'Accidentally' spill your food day after day. Swap barcodes on trays at random. Collude with your friends before hand, and you buy Jenny's food and Jenny buys yours and then you trade trays at the end. Intercepting the damn letter out of the mailbox before your parents get it… All of these popped into my mind about 5 minutes after they described the system. And I didn't even consider the option of just dropping random crap like pencil shavings on there. Or whatever ingenious ways the kids will undoubtedly come up with to beat this thing, seeing as they'll have weeks to think it over.
OMG, Twistie, that is hilarious. Think of the endless possibilities, San Antonio kids! Cat treats! Gum erasers! A hotdog-shaped dog toy! Go for it!
I of course am laughing that I may not scream. This is NOT going to end well, not to mention that it will tell them precisely zilch about what they think they want to know.
Such a great breakdown of the story, and epic fail that is this study. But, really, I wanted to comment on how much I LOVE your use of Foucault in your analysis! I have a lot of trouble with Foucault in general, but the Grad class that we talked about him in just paid off since I felt very smart knowing what you were referencing. 🙂
I was the same. FOCAULT. I KNOW FOCAULT. I AM SMART EEEEEEEEEE
Oh dear, when I was in grade 4 or 5 this would have been viewed as the Best. Game. Ever. Lively (and stealthy) episodes of swap the leftovers would have ensued. I predict chaotic and useless data. Hope I'm right
Awful. Just awful, for the reasons mentioned in the post and in comments. MORE surveillance is rarely a good thing, it seems to me, except in places where, I don't know, people are regularly planting roadside bombs.
This is bad for everyone, for all of the kids involved, but I especially cringe thinking about kids who are already caught in some kind of food-or-weight-or-appearance related net. Plenty of kids worry about getting fat, or being fat, or being TOO fat, and plenty of parents feed right into this – even with children who are spectacularly average.
I also feel outraged that this is being perpetrated on children who – presumably – have not consented (and maybe can't consent) to participate in a study. As with many other things in this world, I feel that we ought to be "experimenting" on ourselves before forcing our children to be the guinea pigs. I don't have kids and don't want any, but I am rather fiercely on the side of the rights of the child, and I'm pretty sure socio-medical surveillance infringes on the rights of those kids.
Oh gods, I don't even want to think about what this might do to the fat kids whose parents are already trying to "fix" them.
I don't think these people did their homework prior to the design of this study. Sharing and trading food with other kids is an integral part of lunchtime social behavior, at least it was at my school. I might pocket my apple for later. I might decide something looked gross and pass it to a friend. If I loved the rice pudding and my pal thought it looked like maggots, score! Second helping. And of course you know at least a spoonful of those peas was surreptitiously launched at someone, one by one at the end of a spoon, either by you or the person sitting next to you if they noticed you weren't going to eat them.
Not to mention kids have ways of taking care of their own… if there was a friend of ours who we knew was likely to be punished for eating, knowing our little crowd we'd be getting extra food or going hungry on days we knew we had something waiting for us later, and food would be finding its way to the friend that needed it.
And this won't daunt kids with eating disorders for even a minute. They don't have to eat a bite of that tray, all they have to do is make it disappear in some way before the "after" snapshot– not hard to do in a crowded caf full of hungry, squirmy children.
In short, I don't think before and after shots of the trays are necessarily an accurate indication of what is going into a kid's stomach.
You know, when I was doing my research I had to get clearance from the Ethics Committee– nevermind, they probably thought this vileness was soooo brilliant. :[
Reason number 437 why I'm scared of having kids. Every day, the level of micromanaging scrutiny and crazy expectations seems to increase. The obesity panic is probably the worst example, but not the only one.
I wish these researchers realized that scrutinizing what kids eat is the opposite of healthy and it has the potential to screw with their eating habits *and* their self-esteem and emotional health. And, as you've said, it's incredibly naive to think that that scrutiny won't mess up the results six ways from Sunday.
Can we give Ellyn Satter and Katja Rowell two-million bucks to improve the school lunch set-up instead?
What a completely bizarre experiment. It can't possibly work – there's just no way that the system can cope with a crowded cafeteria of lively kids.
Leaving aside the moral questions that come with turning a cafeteria into a Big Brother style totalitarian institution, I want to know how much this monitoring is going to COST. I thought public schools were broke?
Also, it all seems arse backwards. If the powers-that-be are so concerned about what kids are eating in school, why don't they just change the menu? Instead of offering unhealthy choices and then shaming and penalising children for choosing them?
I know that if this had been implemented while I was still in primary school, all hell would have broken loose. I'm actually sitting here thinking about what would be the best things to put on the trays.
But, in all seriousness, how far is society willing to go to condition children to accept that they will never be good enough until they are stick thin? (No offense meant at that term)
I don't think the project will get very far. Like SugarLeigh mentioned, kids trade food. It's impossible to prevent. Plus, you will always have food from outside sources. Unless the school is going to be completely totalitarian and ban kids from bringing in their own food (which is an entirely different can of words) and put punishments in place for skewing the results, there's no way that this can work. There's just way too many variables!
At least one school district that I know of has ALREADY banned kids from bringing their own lunches. On the misbegotten theory that what the school feeds them is healthier than what their parents might pick. Little bit of overgeneralization there?
Natalie, what school district is this?
Not Natalie, but several Chicago Public Schools have instituted bans on this. I don't think it's district-wide policy yet, however.
this is a really interesting post. i'm glad you brought up the Panopticon. I hadn't made the connection, but now that you've pointed it out, it is exactly what it is.
It really bothers me when other scientists are this ridiculous. Do they really think that kids feeling self concious about what they eat will inspire them to be healthy? REALLY?! There are so many things wrong with that idea I don't even feel I can articulate them.
Thank you for posting this.
as someone who has battled with weight problems since he was a kid, i feel very comfortable saying that it IS my personal responsability. i'm so sick of people trying to blame society for their problems. if you don't mind being overweight, that's totally ok with me; to each there own. i was unhappy being obesce, not because society told me it was bad, but because i was uncomfortable. i was always hot, i'd wake up sweaty, my clothes never fit right, etc.
so i took steps to change. in increased my level of physical activity, removed some seriously toxic foods from my diet (fast food and soda, primarily) and stuck with it.
when it comes down to it, you can make excuses, or you can make progress, but you can't do both.
all that being said, i wholeheartedly agree that the nature of this experiment is disturbing at best.
but it's not society's fault you're fat.
^ to each their* own.
Following on from the commenters who already pointed out the swapping/pre-planning issues … one can only assume that once the researchers yet again get "confusing" results (they eat so little yet are fat! Cannot compute!!!) it'll then become "and we have to film the kids while they eat" and then "we have to put the children in individual hermetically-sealed pods while they eat" because lord knows anything's better than challenging the dominant narrative about "health".
My first thought was how handily this shifts the burden of providing healthy lunches to children. Instead of focusing on offering nutritious actual food containing meals by the school they have made it an issue of what students "choose". This is compounded by the fact that generally, at least when I was a student in San Antonio public schools a little more than a decade ago, the free or reduced lunches included way less (or possibly no) options. If you had money you could buy salads, fruit plates, curly fries, or taquitos as you wished but free lunch was: drink, entree of school's choice, bread or potato product, vegetable (which could be a packet of pasteurized picante sauce), possible fruit, usually from a can in heavy syrup, and some sort of desert something. period.
Thus will children be scolded for eating the crappy lunch provided by the school, who is acknowledging absolutely no responsibility of their own.
My thoughts — why scrutinize what children eat? Have they never heard of "The Division of Responsibility in Feeding Children?" It's the school's responsibility to serve nutritious food, and the kids decide what to eat.
It's really bizarre to think that parents can somehow control what their children eat of the food that's served at school. That would require a level of discipline that would likely cause a crazy amount of craziness for all involved.
I hate, and I mean HATE, allowing children to choose food and then scolding them for their choices. It's a recipe for disaster.
Reading over the article, some salient points:
The $2 million is a grant from the US Department of Agriculture. Our tax dollars at work! And let's not go into the myriad ways the Dept of Ag intersects with all kinds of corporate food interests.
The school principal is clearly a fool, saying "getting consent from parents hasn't been a problem. He suspects the small number [10%] of parents who withhold consent don't understand the project, perhaps thinking it limits what their child can eat at school. … Nothing in the program says they can't have something…It just says we're tracking what it is."
The article also cites another study conducted about kids and fatness: "reported that 44 percent of children studied consumed calories below daily minimum requirements, but nearly one-third were still obese. Seven percent screened positive for type 2 diabetes."
So 10% of not-consenting parents is a small number. Is 7% of studied kids screening positive for Type-2 diabetes also a small number?
I wonder.
It seems awfully small to me. Not insignificant, just small. Especially when the media yatters on and on and makes it sound as if all children living in poverty are 1) beyond deathfat and 2) in the raging throes of diabetes.
$2million effing dollars, for this crap study. God, do you know how many extra teacher salaries that could pay? Maybe some more special ed instructors, or arts education? Or maybe funding early-childhood education? All studies show early childhood education AND smaller class sizes produce better learning outcomes. Instead, these asshats are frittering away $2million on barcodes and secret cameras to watch kids take food.
And that 7% screening positive for type 2 diabetes, if true, is way, WAY higher than the national average for people younger than 20 in the U.S., which runs about 1/8 of 1%. If that's true, that means almost ALL the cases of T2d among people under 20 are seen in the poorest populations. Which in turn, means poverty, NOT fat, is what they need to be looking at if they want to get serious about T2d in the under-20 set. (Which I don't think they actually do, pardon my cynicism.)
And this won't daunt kids with eating disorders for even a minute. They don't have to eat a bite of that tray, all they have to do is make it disappear in some way before the "after" snapshot– not hard to do in a crowded caf full of hungry, squirmy children.
SugarLeigh, that was me. Not eating disordered exactly, but I had issues with the textures of a lot of foods (possibly Asperger-related, which of course nobody understood back in the 70s). And British schools back then, or mine at least, were especially stringent about making sure you ate every scrap of what was on your plate, even if it made you gag. I basically got away with eating barely any lunch for about five years, before I got to join the packed-lunch crowd. Sometimes I'd manage to palm food off on other kids, but I wasn't popular and someone would always tell on me. It struck me as odd that (unlike my other behavioral issues) the teachers didn't discuss this sooner with my parents, but I realized some years on that my mother had indeed been aware, but assumed 'picky eating' wasn't a problem as long as I was a thin kid. (When I started putting on weight from finally eating three meals a day, and to cap that, entered into early puberty – that was a problem.) So, yes, I think when a child does appear to have a troubled relationship with food (which has nothing at all to do with what they may weigh), schools might want to step in and check out what's happening. But this is not the way to do it.
They're just trying to train the next generation of obedient workers for the state!
No, seriously, I know I might sound "off" on this forum, but to me this is just another example of the US moving towards a police state. Look at how the TSA takes away bodily autonamy now (and recall just how fast these security measures were applied!). Read the Patriot Act. Think about retroactive immunity for telecom campanies that helped with warrantless wiretapping BEFORE and during the Bush administration. Look up internet "kill switch". Look up the new health care legislation and the fact that all medical records will have to be electronic soon and that BMI will have to measured and monitored or doctors may lose federal subsidies. Your i-phones track you as does Google (but nobody cares because they're "hip" and "cool" and have mottos like "do no evil"). Oh, and don't even get me started on the new police vans equipped with x-ray devices used to see through wall (yes, they are out there, look them up).
I don't care what political party you hail from, these measures are un-Constitutional and invasive.
Sorry about getting off topic, your article was wonderful and throught-provoking as always!
Thanks for this post, Leslie. You know what I found highly annoying about the article? At the end of the article, they quote some school official who says something along the lines of "the few parents who did not give consent must not fully understand what we are doing, or they think that this will somehow restrict their child's choices, but it won't" or something along those lines. As if any parent who objected to such an intrusive experiment on their children just must not UNDERSTAND, it certainly can't be that they have thought it out and decided that such tactics are not in the best interests of their child. It really chapped my ass. I would no sooner consent to such an experiment on my child than I would consent for the school to start beating them, but I just must not fully understand.
Wow, what an excellent way to totally freak children out and breed neurosis.
Back in my day at school (in the UK) , we had delightful rosy-cheeked "dinner ladies" as they were called who tut-tutted at your tray if you didnt have a slice of cake or something that looked nice piled high. "Ooh go back lovey and get some cake" they'd say, or "its cold outside – go back and get some treacle sponge and custard." Of course the kids loved that treatment and the dinner ladies were worshipped accordingly as something akin to goddesses. Nobody had hang-ups about food or eating, and it was just totally cool and easy-going thanks to these women. They would have probably passed out cold about the bullshit research project and probably baked the researchers into a giant pie so they were never heard of again.
This study grinds my gears for all the reasons mentioned above. I want to see healthy food choices for kids, not crap. I have been in a lot of schools (working on an M. Ed. in English) and I know that the lunches provided for kids are not made up of healthy food.
To add something to your argument, the panopticon has been appropriated for modern schools. Schools are built around a central hub with hallways extending. There are emergency doors at the end of each hallway and fire doors at the start. There is a space in the atrium/hub/rotunda that is several square feet where anyone can stand and see down each hallway. The argument is that it is safer because threats can be seen and blocked with the fire doors. I see it as another danger because if ANYONE can see down those hallways, anyone can do damage before the fire doors are shut.
Surveillance of our students is very, very real. And this study is only going to produce skewed results. However, I have a tiny hope that someone, somewhere, will use it to show how schools avoid responsibility when it comes to providing a decent lunch.
Additional info–the panopticon has also been appropriated for modern prisons, which are often designed as pods. Within each pod, the cells are located along the walls and the guards are in the center. Our schools are prisons are officially designed by the same people.
Lovely. Reminds me of the GeoSat linked pedometers that where proposed by some wonk for British school kids. Obviously attacking (since, yah know, obesity must be attacked) the problem from the opposite angle, they wanted to see how much exercise kids were actually getting (calories out in this case) and wanted to track the kids every move via global positioning satalite.
Yeah, it's gone THAT far.
This was about a year ago and i don't know if the Brits actually followed through. Still, it had me wondering if any of the more radical kids thought about strolling down to the docks and attaching thier pedo's to cargo containers. Yah know, so the Health Agency could track their progress as they walked across the Atlantic.
Would be kinda good if kids in the US started thinking about ziplocking roadkill and other appatizing goodies for those calorie revealing after-lunch food tray pics.
"Not to mention kids have ways of taking care of their own… if there was a friend of ours who we knew was likely to be punished for eating, knowing our little crowd we'd be getting extra food or going hungry on days we knew we had something waiting for us later, and food would be finding its way to the friend that needed it. "
This exactly. I would have absolutely loved messing with something like this in elementary school as my friends and I spent a lot of time constantly messing with every other system we could.
I was tiny in elementary and middle school, ridiculously so and therefore was lucky enough not to every have to deal with eating/body shame (although I had plenty for other things like being shy, winning a spelling bee, liking to read, having ears that stuck out, etc., so fun being a kid). I would have just piled on a bunch of food and given it away to friends who didn't want to be recorded taking it, because I wouldn't have cared what they saw me eating or even if they reported it to my parents. Only my grandma every got on my case about eating and that was only to make sure I ate healthy, well-rounded meals with a variety of food, not for eating too much.
As it was, I helped out in the cafeteria in exchange for free food and I secretly gave away extras of a lot of the most desirable items (like tater tots and cookies) to kids who asked me for them.
Love love LOVE the title of this post. Especially since Foucault compared schools to prisons; or at least identified the same underlying means of control, surveillance, and power in both. Paranoia really makes for some riveting arguments.
Also, this is disturbingly reminiscent of reform-era social controls enacted through policy changes:
"The project is explicitly focused on schools in poor and minority areas, as these groups are considered to be at higher risk of both the fat and the diabetes."
It's the upper-middle class imposing its standards on what they see as "lesser" groups. Those who know better must help these poor souls and mold them to better fit the "healthy" image. How patronizing! It also sets a dangerous precedent in its use of surveillance to target these "problem" populations. Eugenics, here we come, again.
This and the comments about the 20 minute lunch (including recess!) makes me scared for my own possible future kids. Things just keep getting worse. Stuff like this makes me question whether I want to reproduce at all.
I'm a very quick eater – it's not healthy, I know I've developed that habit because eating is seen as a waste of time, time I could spend working. It's really upsetting to hear schools are trying to train all their students to have that mentality, that you should wolf down just enough food so you don't faint, as quickly as possible so you can get back to work.
This whole idea scares the hell out of me. I am literally flashing back to my obese 10 year-old self picking at my lunch tray and glancing around, totally paranoid that the other children would notice that I was actually eating. If you add to that the idea of someone monitoring my tray and then reporting to my parents?!
My point is that this whole system can and will be incredibly detrimental to children who already struggle with disordered eating.
I asked my elementary aged children about this. My daughter said she'd feel extremely uncomfortable and would try to think of ways to mess up their system so they couldn't track her. My son said he was ok with it because "It's just food."
Did these families volunteer to be guinea pigs?! Why do I feel like this would never fly in upper crust schools and communities? This is not new…
"researchers" going into minority and underserved communities, convincing them they're there for the good of the community and then using their lack of knowledge against them. Doesn't seem anyone is considering the consequences of something like this at all.
Err, what's so bad about this? I mean, parents have a legitimate interest in the diet of their children and data about leftovers could help the school optimize the menu. Frankly, I'd love it if an automated system tracked my diet and reported on it to me.
Some people raised concerns about abusive parents doing harm, but abusive parents are going to do harm anyway by definition. Concerns were raised about obese children, but lunches are already being observed by their peers, why would parents and the school having the same information as all a kids classmates cause additional problems?
i agree with your response though i can't help from wondering. i think part of my issue at the moment begins… well, self policing didn't just suddenly show up in the childrens' lives with this project. they've experienced it already in different ways, so i don't think it's fair to place this project as the cause for possible future eating disorders among the students… which you're not, but i feel like it's not an unlikely leap. of course, i understand the response that this experiment alone may not be a sole cause, and is itself an effect of something larger which all contributes to possible eating disorders.
but when we're talking about potential we have such wide range of movement, do we further limit ourselves when we start the conversation in the direction of eating disorders, or more generally the negative effects of such projects?


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The Android Marketplace has real success stories such as Aaron La's Advanced Task Manager; its open slant gives opportunity to many developers who can't afford a Mac to join a huge market place. Every day, Android grows, and barring the all-out success of Windows Phone 7, it is destined to remain at the top, at least as market share leader. But, all is not well.
According to the Reg, Google's hands-off approach allows its Marketplace to drown in oceans of porn just as the App Store was chocked by useless apps (fart and flashlight) in its early days. There is another negative effect: piracy. Despite the fact that the average selling price for Android apps is less than their iPhone, developers are strangled by app pilfering. The net result is that 49% of Android developers are making less than they expected and only 27% making more than they expected. Again, there is no question that Android is the market leader. For developers, it is an attractive platform. But it isn't the heaven and spice that disgruntled iPhone developers may think it is. Google needs to adapt to keep its most important customer, the developer, happy. Happy, loaded developers make great apps. Currently iPhone Development, while a lot more controlled, has a friendlier, more lucrative face; it also tends to sport much more high quality apps.

subset: commoncrawl


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Horrific as the crime was, the fact that a Baltimore judge last week accepted Alexander Kinyua's plea of "guilty but not criminally responsible" in connection with the brutal beating of a classmate last May doesn't come completely as a surprise. Although successful insanity pleas are rare, Circuit Judge Gale E. Rasin said she accepted Mr. Kinyua's after finding "overwhelming" evidence he was suffering from a serious mental illness at the time of his offense.
What the judge's ruling did not resolve, however, was why no one else seemed to notice Mr. Kinyua was going off the rails, or if they did, why they apparently did not get him help or warn others. Although experts say only a tiny proportion of seriously mentally ill people ever resort to acts of violence, the odds of someone doing so are greatly increased if they aren't in treatment or refuse to stay in it.
According to court documents, for months leading up to the Baltimore attack, Mr. Kinyua, a 22-year-old engineering student at Morgan State University, had been showing increasingly alarming signs of a serious mental disorder. The symptoms included a belief that he was a prophet with secret powers, and an obsession with what he called a "reptilian agenda" from outer space. Such symptoms are often associated with the onset of schizophrenia in early adulthood.
Last December, Mr. Kinyua stopped attending classes, claiming that people had sabotaged his computer records and conspired to get him drunk so he would miss a football game. Around the same time, he punched holes in a wall at the school's ROTC office, prompting a school official to warn he was a "Virginia Tech waiting to happen."
And within days of his release on bail in the assault case, Mr. Kinyua allegedly killed and dismembered another man who was living as a guest at his family's home in Harford County. Then, according to Harford County police, he ate parts of the victim's body.
Under Maryland law, Judge Rasin's ruling means Mr. Kinyua cannot be held criminally liable for assaulting his classmate because at the time he was either mentally incapable of understanding that it was wrong or because he was unable to control himself even if he did. Mr. Kinyua still faces charges in Harford County for the murder of his family's guest, and prosecutors there have ordered a second psychiatric evaluation to determine his mental state during that crime. In the meantime, he has been committed to the state mental health facility at Clifton T. Perkins Hospital Center, where he will remain until doctors determine that he is no longer a danger to himself or others.
In some respects the monstrousness of Mr. Kinyua's admitted and alleged offenses seem comparable only to those of the fictional Hannibal Lecter, the homicidal maniac who devoured his victims in the film "Silence of the Lambs." But unlike that character, whose shrewd intelligence left him perfectly in control of his actions despite knowing they were wrong, people with serious mental illness rarely realize they are sick. When Judge Rasin asked Mr. Kinyua whether he was aware of losing his sanity in the months preceding the attack, he said it seemed to happen "in small bits" that were "almost untraceable." Asked why he didn't tell anyone, he responded: "I thought it was normal."
Obviously there were many other people around Mr. Kinyua — his family, friends, classmates and teachers — for whom his sudden change in behavior was definitely not "normal." But experts say even people close to a person experiencing a mental illness often are hesitant to respond appropriately, either because they don't recognize the symptoms, are unaware of treatment options or don't want to subject a friend or loved one to the stigma of having a mental disorder. Unfortunately, their silence often prevents an illness from being detected until the victim does something that lands him or her in jail.
That is why two years ago Maryland helped launch a new public mental health initiative to help people suffering from serious mental illnesses get treatment. Called Mental Health First Aid USA, the program aims to make families more aware of warning signs such as depression, anxiety, sudden changes in eating and sleeping habits or disjointed thoughts. Other early symptoms include changes in speech patterns, a belief that people are plotting against them, strange messages emanating from animals or other fanciful creatures and an attraction to behaviors that put the person at risk.
We will never know whether Mr. Kinyua's crimes could have been prevented had his illness been diagnosed and treated earlier. But the chances of that happening are a lot better when families, friends and others know how to recognize the symptoms of serious mental disorders and persuade the sick person to accept treatment before a tragedy occurs.


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The recent disputes involving the IRS, last year's deadly Benghazi attack and the Justice Department's media probes have raised doubts about the Obama administration's honesty and integrity among majorities of Americans, a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds.
President Barack Obama's support among independents has been eroded by the controversies, but his overall standing with the public hasn't taken a hit. His job-approval rating remains steady at 48 percent, essentially unchanged from the last NBC/WSJ poll in April.
Yuri Gripas / Reuters
President Barack Obama waves as he walks on the South Lawn of the White House upon his return to Washington on June 4, 2013.
One of the chief reasons for that consistent rating: Most Americans don't hold him primarily responsible for the controversies, according to the poll.
"The problem has come to the administration. Where it has not landed is the Oval Office," said Democratic pollster Peter D. Hart, who conducted this survey with Republican pollster Bill McInturff.
"The benefit of the doubt is with the president," Hart added.
McInturff concludes that the trio of controversies hasn't reframed the political environment.
Click here to read the entire NBC/WSJ poll (.pdf)
"All of these episodes are not Iran-Contra," he said, referring to arms-for-hostages scandal that rocked Ronald Reagan during his second term in office. "They are not restructuring numbers."
Controversies highlight a partisan divide
In the poll, a combined 58 percent of respondents say they believe the State Department's handling of a 2012 terrorist attack on a diplomatic outpost in Benghazi, Libya, raises either major or minor doubts about the Obama administration's honesty and integrity.
Despite recent scandals, a new NBC/Wall Street Journal poll shows his approval rating holding steady at 48 percent, but people are reporting lower confidence in his ability to handle crises, among other qualities. NBC's Chuck Todd reports.
An equal percentage say the same of the Justice Department's subpoena of reporters' phone records in a national-security leaks investigation.
And 55 percent think the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative-sounding groups that applied for tax-exempt status raises doubts about the administration's honesty and integrity.
Additionally, a plurality of respondents say they believe the IRS targeting wasn't an isolated event and represented a more widespread effort by the government to investigate conservative groups.
But most Americans don't directly fault the president for these controversies.
Only a combined 41 percent hold Obama "totally" or "mainly" responsible for the Benghazi attack; 37 percent say the same of his culpability in the Justice Department's subpoena of reporters' phone records; and just 33 percent directly blame him for the IRS's targeting of conservative-sounding groups.
What's more, there's a partisan divide to these numbers: Fewer than one-quarter of Democrats hold Obama directly responsible for these three controversies, versus a majority of Republicans who do so -- including 68 percent for the Benghazi attack.
That said, 50 percent of Americans -- including half of independents -- believe that Republicans in Congress are justified in their investigations into the Obama administration. Forty-two percent disagree, arguing that GOP inquiries are simply partisan attacks.
Overall, 35 percent of respondents in the poll say the president is experiencing a short-term setback from which he'll likely recover, while 43 percent believe it's a longer-term setback from which things probably won't get better.
To put that 43 percent figure into perspective, a majority -- 54 percent -- said Obama was facing a longer-term setback in the Aug. 2011 NBC/WSJ poll, which was taken after the president's debt-ceiling battle with Congress.
And majorities in 2005 (53 percent), 2006 (58 percent) and 2007 (65 percent) said George W. Bush was suffering a long-term setback after his second-term struggles.
Obama's midterm report card: Neither honor roll nor detention
The president's approval rating in the poll stands at 48 percent, which is up one point from April.
In addition, 47 percent view him favorably, compared with 40 percent who see him in a negative light -- essentially unchanged from the last poll.
But he's also seen a decline in his numbers among independent respondents: Just 28 percent of them approve of his job -- down from 41 percent in February and 37 percent in April.
Obama also has seen a drop when it comes to questions about his presidential qualities.
The Daily Rundown's Chuck Todd reports on President Barack Obama's impact on the judicial branch.
A whopping 67 percent of Americans give the president high marks for being easygoing and likable, which is up slightly from Jan. 2013 after his successful re-election bid. Another 50 percent give him high marks for having high personal standards that set the proper tone for the country, which is essentially unchanged.
But just 46 percent give him high marks for having strong leadership qualities (down from 53 percent in January); only 42 percent give him high marks for being honest and straightforward (down from 47 percent); and just 21 percent give him high marks for changing business as usual in Washington (down from 28 percent).
Democratic pollster Fred Yang, who works with Hart, views these numbers as a midterm report card for the beginning of Obama's second term.
"The president doesn't merit the honor roll or detention," Yang said. "But the poll does have some strong warnings for the administration."
Good news, bad news on the economy
Yet the survey also contains some brighter news for the administration when it comes to the economy.
While only 36 percent say they're satisfied with the state of the U.S. economy, that's the highest number on this question since 2006. What's more, the percentage believing the United States is still mired in an economic recession is at its lowest level since Obama became president. (Technically, the recession ended in 2009.)
But if the public has a slightly brighter outlook about the economy, it doesn't appear to be giving Obama any credit. Just 33 percent say they are either "extremely" or "quite" confident that the president has the right set of goals and policies to improve the economy.
What's more, nearly seven-in-10 respondents say that the Dow Jones Industrial Average hitting new highs is an indication that corporations and the wealthy are doing better -- but not the economy overall.
Lacking confidence in American institutions
And the public continues to sour on many of America's largest institutions. A combined 67 percent have either a "great deal" or "quite of bit" of confidence in the U.S. military, which is currently under fire for allegations of sexual assault against females. But that percentage is down from 76 percent in May 2012.
Twenty-nine percent have a lot of confidence in the automobile industry (up 1 point from May 2012); just 17 percent have confidence in the federal government (up 1 point); only 16 percent have confidence in the national news media (up 1 point); and 12 percent have confidence in large corporations (down five points from May '12).
And just 10 percent of the public has confidence in the IRS.
The NBC/WSJ poll was conducted May 30 to June 2 among 1000 adults (including 300 cell phone-only respondents), and it has an overall margin of error of plus-minus 3.1 percentage points.


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States Lose Millions in Mineral Revenue Under Sequestration
The sequester will cost energy states tens of millions of dollars in mineral revenues, a move that has sparked anger — and surprise — among some state officials who say they should have been informed sooner.
The sequester will cost energy states tens of millions of dollars in mineral revenues, a move that has sparked anger — and surprise — among some state officials who say they should have been informed sooner.
The U.S. Department of the Interior will shave about $110 million from monthly payments for oil, gas and coal production on federal lands, the department told 36 state treasurers in letters sent last Friday. Those cuts, amounting to about 5 percent of funds that totaled about $2.1 billion last year, will begin immediately and last at least through July.
Western states will be hit hardest. Wyoming, dominated by large swaths of federal land, bears the biggest burden.
Next hardest hit are New Mexico, Utah and Colorado.
Wyoming received almost $1 billion in federal royalty payments in 2012, close to one-third the size of its total state budget. Under federal law, the state is guaranteed about half of mineral lease payments on federal lands inside its borders. The federal government will withhold about $53 million from Wyoming this year — more than $10 million each month.
That news hit Cheyenne like a ton of coal, fueling more distrust of the federal government in the overtly libertarian state.
Gov. Matt Mead, a Republican who just sliced the budget amid lagging mineral revenues, likened the federal government's decision to stealing.
"When the state reduced its budget by over 6 percent it did not achieve its reductions by withholding mineral revenue due under state leases. That would be taking someone else's property," he said Tuesday. "Similarly, the Department of Interior should not be able to meet its budget reduction by taking mineral revenues which belong to the states under the law."
Mead's office said the state should have been notified sooner. Officials had plugged all expected mineral revenue into its latest budget.
"This is no way to achieve adequate notice or give our state an opportunity to respond before the action is underway," the governor said.
Renny MacKay, Mead's spokesperson, said Interior's Friday letter was the state's first news of the cuts.
Interior officials, however, said there had been some warning signs, including a letter the department sent to states earlier in the month, saying the cuts would be coming, but not specifying how much.
Interior pointed towards warnings in a February House Appropriations Committee report, and a March 1 report by the Office of Management and Budget. The mineral revenue's vulnerability has been public information since September 2012, the department said.
In an emailed statement, Interior's Office of Natural Resources Revenue said it "recognizes the hardships this may impose on states, but it is obliged to fulfill its mission in compliance with the law."
The governor is consulting with Wyoming's Congressional delegation and officials in other states about whether there are options to restore the revenue.
"We are using every means necessary to make sure our state is made whole," said Mark Gordon, the state's treasurer.
On Wednesday, members of the Western Congressional Caucus condemned the cuts. "The administration has decided to stop paying for services it is receiving, at the expense of Western states," said Rep. Steve Pierce, a Republican from New Mexico, which stands to lose more than $26 million in the coming months.
We invite you to discuss and comment on this article using social media.


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And so here we are with the top 14 albums of the year as selected by some SCR DJs, some Fall Frenz, and myself.
The big pressure vote from a lot of folks was for Fucked Up's "David Comes To Life" to win but the local vote swung it toward the eventual champion, which is both adjacent to Salford and excellent.
The final top 14 is heavily biased towards the North West of England and specifically the Greater Manchester conurbation mainly due to the fact that the music is current to these parts, and that's what our community radio station is all about. Also notable that two of the american participants in this final list played in the city this year (albeit Ripley was in his Moon Duo guise when he did it).
The year has been dominated by the neu Prog and the neu Psyche – a lot of this featured in the preceding three shows to this one – but also the main emphasis has been those musicians who can craft albums at home and produce masterpieces – whether it be time served guys who have been around as long as I have, or the new breed. Tony Thornborough coined an appropriate phrase at the Factory Star/Blimp gig at FAC251 earlier in the year viz "Old is the new Young" spot on – and I have to say in all honesty the most aural pleasure this year has been derived from watching musicians who have spent many years crafting their art and have reached a new creative peak. I just enjoy seeing these guys perform great material which is considerably superior to the Elbow/Coldplay clones attempting to forge a career in the biz. I think I am going to be a little harsher in my responses to bands submitting material next year – my first response will be to direct them to the artists featured on this show…….don't copy Garvey and Martin look around a little wider.
Wooden Shjips – Black Smoke Rise – West (September) – the first Shjips album to get proper studio treatment and their best yet. Everything from pyschedelia, via psychobilly through to motorik rhythms – marvellous and mesmerising music.
Vinny Peculiar – Artrockers – Other People Like Me (October) – In which local residents Mr Wilkes demonstrates his flair for lyricism and great tunes. Some pure pieces of poetry on this album which reflects back to an older less complicated world.
The Fall – Cosmos 7 – Ersatz GB (November) – the 29th Studio album from the bard of Prestwich and his band of travelling troubadours. This one divided opinion quite markedly and led to wailing and gnashing of teeth in some quarters contrasted with unapologetic worship in others. Would have been higher but for a seriously loud no vote from the Clifton area.
Shoshin – Here Comes My Favourite – City of Patience (July) – I guess the rest of them will catch up on this one eventually as I appear to be the only one who likes this – but I like it lots – I think I have played every track from it. Grab it – you don't know what you are missing! Also if you can get the link between the preceding album and this one you win a patronising pat on the back.
Moff Skellington – In the Helter Skelter Suburb – Embers of the Rapid Eye (?) – not released as yet I don't think but definitely Moff's album of 2011. The usual mix of other worldliness and DIY musical ethic which makes this artist utterly unique and rather marvellous. Many of the tracks appeared on a session on the old Reformation show. It just makes me smile to listen to this music and wordplay within it.
Fall Fan Dave and the Lap Top Dancers – Juggernaut – Yelling Boil (March) – Dave and Ian's second outing and rather groovy it is too. Another productive year for the duo with a new album planned for 2012. A variety of selections on this one but this track is one Dave prepared for a Reformation session.
Danny Short – Your Kingdom – You Must Not Play (November) – the second of two albums released this year by the very productive Mr Short. His best yet I think as it captures both his punk-prog-pop side as well as his more experimental leanings.
Crystal Stilts – Sycamore Tree – In Love With Oblivion (April) – a stunning second album with some stand out tracks. Described as noise pop meets '60s psych somewhere – I think they go beyond that and have created a signature sound which is centred around Hargett's laconic vocal delivery.
Kin – Chemistry Set – Flickering (December) – actually out in physical form in rather groovy packaging earlier in the year but just made available on Bandcamp. This was all it promised to be in the "Dot Dot Dot" ep on Invisible Girl but took the form and schema to a new place entirely. New stuff on the way from the amazing talent that is Kin. I also get a mention on the album sleeve notes along with a few others….
The Wild Swans – English Electric Lightning – The Coldest Winter In A Hundred Years (August) Claiming to have "unfinished business," former Teardrop Explodes keyboardist Paul Simpson returned with Wild Swans' first album since 1990's Space Flower and a new super-group line-up which included the Brian Jonestown Massacre's Ricky Maymi, Echo & the Bunnymen's Will Sergeant and Les Pattinson, and Spiritualized's Mike Mooney, just to name a few. The chosen track is just pure magic – wonderful lyrics. The first of two Occultation releases in the top 15.
Monster Island – Pilot Whales – Cathedral Steps (November) Stephen, Lewis and Wesley are back with their third album which further develops their unique approach to music and their lyrical genius in respect of the world that surrounds us and them. Utterly wonderful. Get it from Bandcamp. Note to self – make sure we get them at a gig in Salford next year.
Half Man Half Biscuit – Somethings Rotten in the back of Iceland – 90 Bisodol (Crimond) (September) – the 12th album in the canon and they show no signs of running out of ideas – the usual Blackwell obsessions remain – footie, indie bands and obscure soap stars. There are three constants in my life – the wife, The Fall and Half Man Half Biscuit (oh and Joseph Holts Bitter – so that's four).
Fucked Up – Queen of Hearts – David Comes To Life (June) – a "Tommy" for the I-Pad generation? Possibly – but then again so much more than that. Immense vocals, searing guitars and exceptional tunes. As mentioned above many had this as number one for the year but the jury over turned that verdict and came up with the one below.
Factory Star – Stone Tumbling Stream – Enter Castle Perilous (April) – we said this immediately it came out – Album of the Year – a bit of a bold statement given we were only four months into the year. Having seen the new line-up do the whole album in order at FAC 251 and having been somewhat blown away it was good to get hold of it and revel in its quality. Some of Martin Bramahs' most exquisite lyrics appear on this release revealing him as a poet of some distinction, and the tunes are just as memorable. The album was recorded "live" and this works on so many levels as it captures the intensity of the experience of catching this band in the flesh. My review of the album is still the most read blog on this site. Occultation records again demonstrating exceptional taste.
So in conclusion:
ALBUM OF THE YEAR : Factory Star – Enter Castle Perilous ; Runner-Up – Fucked Up – David Comes to Life
RECORD LABLE OF THE YEAR : Occultation ; Runner-up – Bandcamp
To listen to this show click the link


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Allen Jones (1800-1875)
Allen Jones was the second husband of Keziah Knight Giddens, widow of Isben Giddens. She was a daughter of William Anderson Knight, pioneer settler of the Ray City area. Following the demise of Mr. Knight, Allen Jones acted on behalf of the family in collecting a debt owed to the estate.
Allen Jones was born January 1, 1800, in Bulloch County, a son of Thomas and Martha Denmark Jones. He grew to manhood in Bulloch County. On January 16, 1823 he married Ann Cone, daughter of Aaron Cone and grand-daughter of William Cone, R.S. She was born January 5, 1801
To Allen Jones and Ann Cone were born four children:
- Sarah Jones, born 1823, married Fleming B. Walker of Brooks Co.
- Susannah Jones, born 1827, married Benjamin F. Whipple from New York.
- Thomas A. Jones, born 1828, married Martha , Died in Savannah
- Aaron Cone Jones, born 1831, married (1) Jane Vickers (2) Mrs. Polly Williams Lovett
About 1837 Allen Jones bought a farm in the Grooverville area in that part of Thomas County later cut into Brooks County, where he moved his family. Some time in the early 1840s he sold his Grooverville property and moved to Lowndes county and settled on a farm in the Cat Creek District. While living there he served as Justice of the Inferior Court of Lowndes County 1845-1853. Jones was a primitive baptist by faith, and joined with Friendship Church at Hahira, GA
His wife, Ann Cone Jones, died about 1855, Afterwards, the widower Jones re-married to the widow of Isbin Giddens and daughter of William Anderson Knight, Kiziah Knight Giddens. The couple made their home in the new county of Berrien, in the vicinity of present day Ray City, GA near the homes of Reverend Nathan Talley, William R. Brandon, and James M. Baskin. The farms of William A. Jones, William Washington Knight and James A. Knight were in the same area.
In Berrien County Allen Jones served as a Justice of the Inferior Court, 1861-1862.
On November 1, 1861 Allen Jones lost his second wife, Kiziah Knight Giddens Jones. At the time of her death, the estate of her father had not been settled. This put her widowed husband, Allen Jones, in a curious position of having to file a fi fas action against a debtor, John W. Turner, in order to settle a debt owed to the estate of William A. Knight, so that the estate of his dead wife could inherit from her father's estate, and he in turn could inherit from his wife's estate.
After the death of Kiziah, Allen Jones married a third time. The marriage was March 8, 1862 in Berrien County to Mrs. Eliza Kinsey Newsom, widow of William Newsom. The wedding ceremony was performed by primitive baptist Elder Ansel Parrish.
The couple removed to Lowndes county. Mr. Jones acquired a farm about one mile from Mineola, GA where he died August 2, 1875.
He was buried on his estate lands, in a small cemetery; grave unmarked.
Mr. Jones died testate in Lowndes County, leaving a will dated February 11, 1871, probated August 2, 1875, in Lowndes Court of the Ordinary. It bequeathed his lands consisting of home place on Lot No. 51, 11th district of Lowndes County, to his wife Eliza and his children and her children, viz: Mrs. Sarah Walker, Mrs. Susannah Whipple, Thomas A. Jones, deceased; Aaron C. Jones, Mrs. Miriam Harrell, wife of John W. Harrel and Asa Newsom.
Aaron C. Jones and Asa Newsom were appointed executors of the will. They were fellow veterans of the Civil War, Jones having served with the 56th Georgia Regiment, Company B, and Newsom serving with the Berrien Minute Men, Company K, 29th Georgia Regiment.
The Will of Allen Jones
State of Georgia
Lowndes County
In the name of God, Amen, I, Allen Jones, of said state and county, being of advanced age, but sound and disposing mind and memory, knowing that I must shortly depart this life, deem it right and proper both as respects my family and myself, that I should make a disposition of my property with which a kind providence has blessed me I do therefore make this my last will and testament hereby revoking and annulling all others by me heretofore made.
First, I desire and direct that my body be buried in a decent and Christian-like manner suitable to my circumstances and conditions in life. My said body shall return to dust – to the God who gave it, as I hope for salvation through the merits and atonement of our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Secondly, I desire and direct that my just debts be paid without delay by Executors hereinafter named and appointed
Thirdly, I give and bequeath to my beloved wife (Eliza) for and during her natural life only (without power to dispose of by will or otherwise) one lot of land number 27 in the Eleventh district of Lowndes county being the improved land on which we now live. I also give and bequeath to my beloved wife in the same reserved manner the farming utensils used on and belonging to the farm on said lot of land; and two mules, my carriage horse and carriage, my other live stock of each all and every kind where ever found, all the provisions on said farm side; growing crop (if any) and all my household and kitchen furniture and I direct my executor not to molest disturb trouble or bother my beloved wife within peaceably proper on and holding the property holding given her for and during her natural life.
Fourthly, The residue of my property both real and personal whatever and where ever it may be including that given to my wife in the third article of this will for and during her natural life only (after her estate ? is over) I give bequeath and bestow by equal shares to the heirs of my natural body, and heirs of the body of my wife, to wit; Sarah Walker, Susan Whipple, Thomas A. Jones deceased, Aaron C. Jones, Miriam Harrell (alias Mrs. John P. Harrell), and Asa Newsome in fee simple and forever.
Fifthly, I hereby constitute and appoint my son Aaron C. Jones and Asa Newsom both of the county and state aforesaid sole executors of this my last will and testament this February 11th 1871.
Allen Jones
Signed sealed dictated and published by Allen Jones as his last will and testament in the presence of us the undersigned who subscribed from hereunto in the presence of said testators at his special insistence done —– in the presence of each other.
Hanford D. Tyler
John H. Tyler
Asa Newsom
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Bed Bath Investors Can Clean Up
Sam Mamudi and Jack Otter highlight stocks that are rising after a mention in Barron's.
This transcript has been automatically generated and may not be 100% accurate.
I ... Genworth shares were up sharply after I mentioned in Barron's magazine and Jack Otter Barron's online on your ... family your stocks to Watch block ... Suzanne Investors have had a crazy rollercoaster and engine were stock hit eighty four cents a share and there are around the time the market bottom ... line ... is from ... the six dollar range ... the story and magazines we ... read Hindi integrity with a ... great story about it he says is you can go out to eighteen dollars a share ... I need and then they can move on from there as well prepare industry ... satisfy engine worst case the insurance business seems like the easy so I ... mean what's the real challenges long-term care ... I mean we know everyone's going to die and the actuaries health plan that ... with long-term can you do don't ever want to live ... that's true but the dentist getting the house to know that they are focusing on on profitability there for singing deleveraging than that running does really make business ... to business back in good shape ... they have come in areas of former ... CEO and now ... at the helm and said Jack thinks the gap is they can build schools but the features of the pretty bright and its Allston Trading right now or it was Friday's it's about point three above trend ... well and the board is actually looking pretty ... strange things here will tell say it's ... all part ... of the government wants to raise the prices on mortgage insurance after these competitors ... in the biggest competitor is prices that it does ... raise prices and back up to the market says double of bondage that potentially could anyone can also cause the housing market is getting better it's ... stopping slated to repair its also the mall itself to just grow old enacted ... and on ten ten and beyond and very rights of the story also an emotional as well ... yet they are thereupon head of market and the engine is a very compelling case ... timepieces Egypt easily got to the sand ... um if there is a buyout which ... he gives integrated up as much as forty five cents or so ... he is very interesting piece here I see that ... they're from the company will be sleeping is has always run like this dope right it didn't take questions on earnings calls a dam breakouts United in Division store sales or anything like that ... I'm ... also the website is a little backwards ... he says that maybe hasn't been updated in ten years ... but as ... profit grows a lot of ... eye diseases and possibly most financially conservative big retailer in America is hardly ever had at ... times running in strange ways we may have targeted cost owns the competitors in most cases it's all wrong from the headquarters ... and other government managers actually have discretion as to what ... the stock and don't you remember nothing of experience in the news and random stop and are ... working ... the woods and Sandy says net profit margins of ten percent well ahead of any of the contest is pretty much and ... it's a business that ... there is out so slightly just a little un usual but ... that is still sort of thing I stopped its not some ... retail sector at J C Penney we've been warning against the yen ... we're still not positive given the stock's low ... yes J C Penney out and show everybody from the nose runs on sinful New Apple phone is talking comes and ... says within its range of business although you don't like this ... you know the salesman discounting and stuff ... and we're in right center in two thousand twelve BB wary of this though it's been on shore we convinced by his story ... and is down sixty percent since then ... the appellant ... yes I mean how much time as it was Apple was among those who may be finding out that I'm now that the token about ... it ... Ms Minogue's and wrote the story makes the analogy that you know it's ... a little bit everyone is now ... this is the trainer Ron Johnson's on the underground passages kind of stock on the train and ... I begin to get rid of him of again to try to position the comfort while Islam very very lucky and we don't really see it improving ... write or


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Plea deal offered in father, son assault case
STAMFORD -- A father and son charged with assaulting an elderly woman with a garden shovel in 2007 appeared in state Superior Court on Wednesday, where lawyers told a judge that a plea deal was possible.
"An offer has been made," said attorney Edward Gavin, who is representing Pasquale Ciullo, the father charged with assault. "We need one week to review it with our clients and either reject or accept the deal."
The contents of the plea agreement were not released or stated in court Wednesday.
Pasquale Ciullo, 50, and his son Angelo Ciullo, 24, both of 1 Byram Dock St., appeared before Judge Richard Comerford wearing suits during their brief court appearance.
The two men were arrested on July 4, 2007, during an altercation with a 60-year-old woman stemming from a continuing property-line feud. Police were dispatched to 176 Byram Shore Road on a report of an altercation involving guns. At the home, police were told that the Ciullos pointed handguns at two workers hired to install a fence for the woman who owns the home, according to reports. Pasquale Ciullo also allegedly beat the woman about the body with a garden shovel during the dispute, police said.
Pasquale Ciullo was charged with first-degree assault on a person 60 years old or older, first-degree unlawful restraint, possession of weapons in a motor vehicle and three counts of second-degree threatening, all felonies; as well as first-degree reckless endangerment, second-degree reckless endangerment, breach of peace and conspiracy to commit second-degree reckless endangerment, which are misdemeanors, according to police.
Angelo P. Ciullo, was charged with conspiracy to commit first-degree assault on a person 60 years old or older, conspiracy to commit first-degree unlawful restraint, two counts of second-degree threatening and possession of a weapon in a motor vehicle, all felonies; and three counts of second-degree reckless endangerment and breach of peace, which are misdemeanors, according to police.
At the time of the dispute, property records showed that Pasquale Ciullo owned a home at 172 Byram Shore Road, adjacent to the home of the alleged victim, Rose Pinchuk. The father and son assault case has been in court nearly 26 times since the 2007 incident without coming to a resolution. If the offer is rejected, the case will likely go to trial.
The incident also sparked a civil case against the two men by Pinchuk, which is currently pending.
The Ciullos will appear back in court Sept. 30.


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Additional Information
|Water Conservation - Size
|22 mm
|Water Conservation - Flow Rate
|Water Conservation - Lever Operated
|Water Conservation - Integral Strainer
|Water Conservation - Backflow Prevention
AFL Valves may be used on hot and cold water plumbing systems and clean chilled water for A/C fan coil units- not suitable for heating. Valves should be accessible and fitted at points of use. See AFL Cartridge Datasheet. Examples include- Wash Basin,
Downloads & Resources
Specification Clauses
Every water outlet or appliance shall have a combined Servicing and Automatic Flow Limiting Valve to automatically limit the flow of hot and cold water – model AFL - as manufactured and distributed by Arrow Valves Ltd - Tel 01442 823123 www.arrowvalves.co.uk. A flow limiting cartridge1 shall be installed through the side port - after fitting and flushing pipes in accordance with the BS6700 Table 3. The Cartridge flow rate shall be as indicated in the table below and a colour coded identity disc fitted after installation of the Cartridge. The valves shall be nickel-plated and fitted with a green aluminium arrow lever. 2,3 Every WC shall be fitted with an AFL Servicing Valve fitted with a strainer only cartridge (no flow limiter) in accordance with clauses G11.1 & R25.6 respectively. Insert as required [1] "incorporating a 260 micron strainer" [2] The valve assembly shall incorporate a double check valve assembly (ED device). [3] The valve assembly shall incorporate a single check valve assembly (EA device). Recommended Flow Rates - Based on BS6700 Appliance Lt/s Hand basin / Washbasin 0.13 Kitchen Sink G1/2" 0.17 Kitchen Sink G3/4" 0.25 WC Flushing Trough (per jet) 0.13 Shower – Single Feed (refer to "Equi-Flow") 0.13 Bidet 0.10 Bath G3/4" 0.43 WC Cistern - 260 µm Strainer Washing Machine1 0.20 Dishwasher1 0.13 Note - 1. The manufacturer should be consulted for required flow rates


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Saturday, November 7, 2009
Thrifting Goodies
I found the wire basket at the home store, love using them around the house and filling them with prims. Then I hit a consignment store and found a fun sewing firkin with my favorite subject, a kitty. And they also had a cast iron cat door stop to add to my collection.
This was my lucky store of the day, I also found the prim candle keep with 4 grubby candles.
At the salvation army I found a candle board, needs sanding and stain, but a nice find.
And I had to get this, because it was cute and only 50 cents.
In another consignment, I found a nice wall basket, this is a larger one and it has a painted frame on the front, I took that off.
It will be perfect with a nice punched piece on it. So, I had a good day thrifting and now I need to paint my hallway and start redecorating that area with some of my new goodies.
16 comments:
- paulette said...
I love Thrifting...you just never know what you are going to find! I love your finds and they will all look great in your home! And the best part you didn't spend much- got to like that!
- November 7, 2009 at 11:01 PM
- Joanne said...
Thrift store finds are the best - Meow - what finds!
- November 7, 2009 at 11:16 PM
- Amanda Laurel Atkins said...
I love the kitty doorstop and the snowman!! great finds!
- November 7, 2009 at 11:29 PM
- patijane's primitives said...
Debbie, Sounds like you had a great day shopping at the thrift stores. Lots of great finds and you didn't have to spend a lot. That's the kind of shopping I like to do!
- November 7, 2009 at 11:55 PM
- Janene said...
What great finds at awesome prices...well worth leaving the home for!
The candle board is my fave!!!
- November 8, 2009 at 8:30 AM
- Rugs and Pugs said...
Debbie ~
So glad you are feeling better and were able to finally get out of the house. Great finds.
Pug hugs :)
- November 8, 2009 at 8:51 AM
- I Play Outside The Box said...
Great finds!!
- November 8, 2009 at 10:48 AM
- Lynn Barbadora said...
LOVE, LOVE, LOVE..great thrift store finds...
- November 8, 2009 at 12:45 PM
- A Painted Journey said...
Oh, I love the kitty firkin and the kitty doorstop!! How many doorstops do you have in your collection? I have a couple of black cat.. one doorstop and one chalkware... Donna
- November 8, 2009 at 2:34 PM
- Cat Nap Inn Primitives said...
you got some really neat deals..love the firkin with the kitty...;)
- November 8, 2009 at 2:46 PM
- WoolenSails said...
I only have three now. The new one, one is a cream colored cat and one is a tuxedo cat.
- November 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM
- Janean said...
sweet, sweet finds. what was the wooden thing with the holes? i would have walked right past it!
- November 8, 2009 at 6:22 PM
- WoolenSails said...
The wooden item is a candle holder. You hang it from a peg rack. Need to have my husband build me one this week after he paints the wall, that I want to use;)
- November 8, 2009 at 6:43 PM
- Pat / Silver Thimble Quilt Co. said...
Woweeie...great finds. Take care relapse after being sick is NOT A GOOD THING.
- November 9, 2009 at 9:06 AM
- primitivebettys said...
Great finds! I LOVE the doorstop!!!! I'm so happy to hear you are feeling better & able to get out and about.
- November 9, 2009 at 9:36 AM
HI Debbie - It's so good to hear you are doing better and were able to get out. You got some great finds!
- November 9, 2009 at 2:42 PM


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I'm working with a VB/ADO multiuser application using many Access 97 databases,
all of them placed on a file-server NT station.
I noticed that some DBs get corrupted quite often, causing open errors to
my programs and so needing a repair & compact via Access or JRO's CompactDatabase
I'd like to know if someone ever found a way to know in advance if a database
"is going to get" corrupted, before the Open method of a Connection object
fails, so I can develop a background task that analyzes in turn the databases
and, if necessary, it repairs them.
Many thanks
R. Bafunno


text:
This 5 piece boys khaki suit is great for weddings, graduations, dances, holidays, Easter, or any special occasion.
- Slim Cut Suit
- 2-Button Jacket with 1 breast pocket, two flap pockets, and 2 inside breast pockets
- 4-Button Vest
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- Cotton Blend Long Sleeve Dress Shirt
- Pre-Tied Adjustable Zipper Neck Tie
Product Reviews Write A Review


text:
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text:
University Office
of the Registrar
Thomas Jefferson University
Integrated Course Catalog
As noted in the Mission Statement, Thomas Jefferson University (TJU) is "…committed to educating professionals in a variety of disciplines who will form and lead the integrated healthcare delivery and research teams of tomorrow." The University meets this goal of developing integrated teams through the ongoing development and expansion of interprofessional educational opportunities, including offering classes that are available to all students enrolled at TJU, regardless of the individual's discipline of study.
Thomas Jefferson University's Integrated Course Catalog provides a complete list of the courses available to all Thomas Jefferson University students. Course information is compiled by the Colleges, but you can also use the "Search" option above to locate courses on a specific topic area.
If you are planning to take a course outside of your discipline, please note the following:
- Students must review all integrated course options with their academic advisor to determine whether a course outside of the discipline will apply toward their degree and ensure it will not interfere with any discipline specific requirements. Students will be allowed to register for a course outside of their discipline on-line. However, the Registrar's Office must receive approval from the student's academic division before the course registration is finalized.
- Tuition Charges: Part-time students incur additional per credit hour charges for all courses taken, regardless of whether the course is offered by their program or another academic division. Full-time students must obtain approval from their program of study before registering for a class outside of their discipline. Full-time students will not be charged additional tuition for a course, taken outside of their program, if that course fulfills a requirement of the curriculum, including electives. Full-time students may take only one three credit course during an academic year, that does not fulfill a requirement of the curriculum, including electives, without incurring additional tuition charges. Full-time students will incur additional tuition charges if they take more than one three credit course that does not fulfill a requirement of the curriculum during an academic year.
- If the enrollment in a course meets maximum capacity, then first priority must be given to students of the home college/school/department in which the course is offered. This is to ensure that students in each discipline can complete their degree requirements in a timely manner.
- This catalog includes only those courses that are available to all TJU students. Discipline specific courses are included in the individual Colleges catalogs.
- This catalog includes all courses that could be potentially offered in each semester, but does not guarantee that each course will be offered in that semester. Up-to-date information about actual courses offered each semester is provided via the University Registrar's Office online registration process.


text:
Cloud computing is coming of age in large enterprises with the birth of "cloud thinking" finally arriving, according to a new study of North American and European IT professionals conducted on behalf of CA Technologies. The study suggested that more enterprises are actually now active in the cloud and their virtualization efforts are contributing to broader the interest in cloud computing.
The results indicate a shift toward accelerating the uses of cloud computing and helping to align IT decision makers and implementers around common goals of efficiency, flexibility, and scalability. CA says that collaboration tools lead cloud deployments at 75 percent, with hosted email, antivirus/spam filters, and web conferencing noted as the most common applications being deployed in the cloud by large enterprises.
Infrastructure and development platforms in the cloud (Infrastructure- and Platform-as-a-Service) appear to be poised for growth with 58 percent of large organizations already using these services, and 43 percent considering them. Such use and consideration sets up infrastructure clouds as the next wave of cloud adoption.
"This study confirms that large enterprises are exploring the benefits of the cloud, and are looking to expand from basic services like collaboration to more complex Infrastructure and Platform cloud services," said Adam Famularo, general manager, Cloud Computing Business, CA Technologies. "It validates a trend we predicted, that IT executives are rapidly becoming orchestrators of an IT supply chain made up of internal and external services. With this shift comes a growing need for sophisticated management and security, allowing enterprises to change how they think about IT to reap the full rewards that cloud computing offers — agility, efficiency, and scalability."
The concept of the cloud is still an uncertainty for many companies. Looking again at the survey: Executives are primarily concerned about security (68 percent) and poor service quality (40 percent), while roughly half of all respondents consider risk of job loss and loss of control as top deterrents.


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The 100 Moments of TSU Athletics presented by Taco Bell® series continues by recognizing an important rivalry in Tennessee State history.
Tonight, the men's basketball team will square off against a familiar foe in the Fisk Bulldogs. The meeting will be the 16th in school history between the two schools who are just a couple blocks apart, but the first time that the two teams met was in football way back in 1922.
TSU started playing football in 1912, but the Fisk game of '22 was one of the first recorded games in Tiger history. Tennessee State won the game 7-6, but struggled against the Bulldogs from there.
The Tigers scheduled Fisk for homecoming for five-straight seasons from 1926-1930. While the fan support was great during TSU's first five homecomings in school history, Fisk rained on the parade as TSU only held a 0-3-2 line in the games.
Fisk and TSU would never meet again in football, and the Bulldogs' program ended in 1983 after the school decided to drop the program.
That rivalry may have died, but the men's basketball versus Fisk game is still going strong.
Tennessee State holds a 12-3 record against the Bulldogs in basketball and has won five straight games including last year's 81-57 decisive victory.
TSU may have dominated the series, but that doesn't mean that Fisk can't pull the upset. The Bulldogs did just that in 2003 with a thrilling 65-63 win.
The basketball game is typically played around Fisk's homecoming and even though it is played inside the Gentry Center, a large number of Bulldog faithful come out to support their team.
The 100 Moments of TSU Athletics presented by Taco Bell® highlights some of the greatest moments in honor of Tennessee State's centennial celebration. A new moment will be released each weekday for a total of 100. These moments were chosen by the TSU 100 Moments committee, which consists of alums from various departments. TSU has so many great moments, not all can be represented in these 100.
Follow TSU Athletics on Facebook.com/TSUTigers, Twitter @TSU_Tigers and YouTube


text: Sijun Forums :: View topic - PAINT CHAT Log in to check your private messages Sijun Forums Forum Index >> Random Musings View previous topic :: View next topic Author Topic : "PAINT CHAT" Wiked EwokmemberMember #Joined: 19 Aug 2000Posts: 215Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:34 pm Hello people from the old and ancient past. I used to be more active on these forums and also on a paintchat that people here attended including folks like Ed, Flexible Elf, EvilToylet among others that I remember. I would like to know if paintchat is still up or if not, where I can get the program for it so maybe I can help bring it back up. Thanks folks!_________________-------Wicked------- Back to top [Shizo]memberMember #Joined: 22 Oct 1999Posts: 3938 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:33 am Fuck you man, just... fuck you. Back to top durgldeepmemberMember #Joined: 14 Sep 2001Posts: 859 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:53 am http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_chat Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First Sijun Forums Forum Index -> Random Musings All times are GMT - 8 Hours Page 1 of 1 Jump to: Select a forum Digital Art----------------Digital Art DiscussionWork in ProgressGallery/Finished Work Miscellaneous----------------Random MusingsArchive : Sep99 - Dec00 You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2005 phpBB Group