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* The Open Access Directory (OAD) list of publisher policies on NIH-funded authors now includes a statement summarizing three years of work. "To the best of our knowledge, no publishers anywhere refuse to publish NIH-funded authors on the grounds of the NIH's public-access policy...."Welcome to the SPARC Open Access Newsletter, issue #156
April 2, 2011
by Peter Suber
Read this issue online
SOAN is published and sponsored by the Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition (SPARC).
Open access as humanitarian aid
On March 11, Japan suffered the largest known earthquake in its history and one of the five largest ever recorded. The resulting tsunami caused immense damage over 500 square kilometers (193 square miles). More than 11,800 people are confirmed dead and more than 15,500 still missing.
First things first: If you're looking for practical information on how to help, or how to cope, see Google's crisis response page and the OLIVE wiki for quake survivors.
Beyond those survival basics, several forms humanitarian assistance take the form of free online access to research:
* Three US organizations created the Emergency Access Initiative (EAI) to provide temporary free online access to toll access (TA) research literature. The National Library of Medicine (NLM) and National Network of Libraries of Medicine (NN/LM) both support OA. But the third partner is the Professional/Scholarly Publishing Division of the Association of American Publishers (AAP/PSP), which lobbies against OA policies in the US. The EAI will provide free online access to "to full-text articles from over 230 biomedical serial titles and over 65 reference books and online databases to healthcare professionals and libraries affected by disasters." Because the free access is temporary, and limited to those affected by the earthquake and tsunami, it's not OA and the EMI isn't calling it OA. Nevertheless it lifts access barriers to research. The free access began on March 14, three days after the earthquake struck, is currently scheduled to end on April 8, 2011.
* Thomson Reuters launched an OA portal of research on the diagnosis and treatment of radiation exposure.
* Elsevier began giving all Japanese IP addresses temporary free online access to the company's "primary online clinical reference tools", MD Consult and First Consult.
* Nature News released an OA special collection of news and opinion on the Japanese earthquake and nuclear crisis.
* ReliefWeb, the UN's OA repository for humanitarian relief, has a section on the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. Among other content, ReliefWeb harvests from OA journals. See for example the articles it has harvested from BMC.
* OpenStreetMap is building OA maps of the disaster area to aid rescue and recovery efforts.
* Several initiatives around the world are crowdsourcing OA maps of radiation levels in different parts of the world as a result of the reactor leaks in Japan.
* RDTN.org is a new site crowdsourcing the collection of "reliable data" about radiation levels in Japan. "Although primarily built to gather data from citizens taking readings on the ground, the site also takes readings from official sources including Pachube.com, an infrastructure platform that gathers community-based environmental data, and Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology."
* Architecture for Humanity uses CC-licensed architectural plans to assist with disaster reconstruction.
I posted a call on SPARC Open Access Forum (SOAF) for other examples of free online access to research or data --not normally OA-- as humanitarian assistance to Japan. As I go to press, these are the only examples I know. If others appear later, please post them to SOAF.
Here's a sad example of an impediment to OA-related humanitarian aid. The Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO) has sensors around the world as part of its mission to detect nuclear tests. In particular, it has sensors in Japan and throughout the Pacific. The sensors are picking up radiation leaking from Japan's six damaged nuclear reactors. The data would be extremely valuable to rescue workers and physicians in Japan, and to policy-makers everywhere thinking about nuclear power. They would even help calm some exaggerated fears on the west coast of North America. But according to Nature, "the CTBTO has no mandate for making radionuclide data publicly available for the purposes of monitoring nuclear accidents, because its member states have not yet agreed for it to have this role...."
This is a fixable problem. Thomson Reuters, Elsevier, and the publishers participating in the Emergency Access Initiative didn't have standing policies to free up articles for humanitarian purposes until they saw the need to do so (often well before the Japanese earthquake), got their acts together, and changed course in time to do some good. Let's hope it's not too late for the CTBTO to do the same. Every government participating in CTBTO --nearly every country on Earth-- should help CTBTO reach this decision.
In the face of a disaster like the Japanese earthquake and tsunami, OA research is less urgent than food, clothing, and shelter. But access to research can be an essential part of rescue and recovery. To show that, here's a brief history of OA as humanitarian assistance, organized by disaster, starting with the Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004. Because standing OA journals and repositories are available to every disaster-damaged region with internet connectivity, this list focuses on resources that would not otherwise have been OA or not otherwise created at all. (I maintain an offline list of these resources and would appreciate learning about any that I've missed.)
(1) The earthquake and tsunami in the Indian Ocean, December 26, 2004
The Dutch Royal Institute of Southeast Asian and Caribbean Studies created Aceh Books, an OA collection of more than 600 books about Aceh, Indonesia. The books are digital replacements for 400 years' worth of print books about Aceh destroyed by the tsunami.
(2) Hurricane Katrina, August 29, 2005
The US Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) released a collection of 8,000+ OA photographs of Hurricane Katrina and other storms from 1998 to 2008.
OA data from Google Earth aided rescue efforts after Hurricane Katrina. (The same article shows how Google Earth data also helped with rescue efforts after the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan.)
(3) The earthquake in Haiti, January 12, 2010
The Emergency Access Initiative (noted above in connection with the Japanese earthquake) originally launched to offer assistance after the Haitian earthquake.
The Open Street Map community provided OA data and tools to assist rescue workers in Haiti.
A new, free iPhone app offered rescue workers the most up-to-date maps and geodata of Haiti, including maps and data from the Open Street Map project.
Cameron Parkins described two Haitian relief projects using CC licenses to share information with all who might need it.
(4) The earthquake in Chile, February 27, 2010
Chilean seismologists shared data on the earthquake which hit central Chile on February 27, 2010
The UK Geological Society released a collection of OA research on Chilean tectonics.
Students at Columbia University's School of Public Administration (SIPA) organized "crisis information" gathered from text messages, emails, and Twitter feeds, to assist with humanitarian aid to victims of the Chilean earthquake.
(5) The Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, April 20, 2010
The US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) launched the Deepwater Horizon Library, an OA collection of "maps, wildlife reports, scientific reports and other previously released public information used by emergency responders, fishermen, mariners and local officials during the Deepwater Horizon oil spill."
The US Environmental Law Institute launched the Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill Litigation Database to track ongoing legal cases related to oil spill. http://www.eli.org/Program_Areas/deepwater_horizon_oil_spill_litigation_database.cfm
The US National Library of Medicine added data on crude oil and dispersants to its OA Hazardous Substances Data Bank.
The Cornell Lab of Ornithology provided OA information on 22 bird species "at risk from the BP oil spill".
The US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) launched a website of OA, near-real-time information on the response to the Deepwater Horizon BP oil spill. The site gathered data from all US federal agencies working on the disaster.
Thirteen scientific societies wrote a joint open letter to the US Senate calling for public funds for research on the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, on the ground that private funds from BP come with unacceptable copyright restrictions which limit public access to the research.
(6) The earthquake in Christchurch, New Zealand, February 22, 2011
Disaster Medicine and Public Health Preparedness (DMPHP) published four OA articles on the Haitian earthquake of January 2010 to assist with disaster relief for the New Zealand earthquake. DMPHP is a TA journal published by the American Medical Association (AMA).
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC1102/S00083/how-long-to-search-a-review.htm http://www.dmphp.org/
* To round out this skeleton history, here are some examples of OA-related relief for what could be called generalized emergency rather than particular disasters.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science formerly had a project called Science & Intellectual Property in the Public Interest (SIPPI), laid down in March 2007, and SIPPI had a Humanitarian Licensing Working Group which issued a July 2004 report, Exploring a Humanitarian Use Exemption to Intellectual Property Protections.
Amanda L. Brewster, Audrey R. Chapman, Stephen A. Hansen, Facilitating Humanitarian Access to Pharmaceutical and Agricultural Innovation, Innovation Strategy Today, 1, 3 (2005).
Edward Mills, Sharing evidence on humanitarian relief, BMJ, December 22, 2005. An editorial arguing that an OA database of humanitarian efforts would itself make those efforts more effective and efficient.
In 2007, the Japanese government called for public comments on a proposed humanitarian exception to Japanese copyright law. The new exception would allow free copying and distribution of medical journal articles in cases of medical emergency. Most TA publishers submitting comments opposed the idea, including some who participate in the Emergency Access Initiative (see Japan and Haiti, above). If anyone knows what happened to this proposal, I'd love to hear the details. For example, if it passed, is it being used in the present disaster? If it didn't pass, is it being reconsidered now?
In 2008, Elisa Mason found that about half the journals in the field of forced migration were OA to some degree or another.
A May 2009 report from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) of the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS) argued that the US "humanitarian obligation" to global health should include green OA mandates for medical research. The report was co-sponsored by the Gates Foundation, Burroughs Wellcome Fund, Google Foundation, Merck Company Foundation, Rockefeller Foundation, US Department of Health and Human Services, US Department of Homeland Security, and US Department of State.
In February 2011, the International Aid Transparency Initiative (IATI) agreed on a global standard for publishing aid data. The idea is that data released under the standard will allow "donors and recipients [to] coordinate their plans and complement the activities of others, reducing duplication and waste...."
Universities Allied for Essential Medicines has been working on humanitarian licensing for years. Its document archive on the topic has docs from just last month.
Also see the many items in the Open Access News archive on efforts to provide OA to research and data on avian flu, in anticipation of a global pandemic.
I'm not going to argue that TA publishers who make temporary sacrifices to provide OA during emergencies should make permanent sacrifices to provide OA all the time. I understand the distinction between emergencies and routine circumstances. You probably give more to the Red Cross after a disaster than you could afford to give every month. I do, and I have an answer ready for anyone who wants me to give the same amount every month.
But but but but. There's more to say on this subject. Here are four buts.
* But #1: Some publishers do provide OA all the time, rain or shine. More than 6,300 peer-reviewed journals, about one-quarter of today's total, provide OA to all their articles. At least two different business models for OA journals are making profits or surpluses for the publishers using them. Converting to OA is not impossible. For publishers making double-digit profit margins, the shift would mean accepting less. For publishers with more modest margins, it would mean changing business models, a non-trivial undertaking. However, publishers in this category should look at companies that have made the move. Hindawi is a profitable OA publisher which finished the job of converting all its peer-reviewed journals to OA in 2007. Looking back on several years of rapidly growing submissions, its co-founder and CEO said in 2010, "It is clear now more than ever that our open access conversion...was the best management decision we have taken...."
When Springer bought BioMed Central, Derk Haank, Springer CEO, said that OA is "a sustainable part of STM publishing, and not an ideological crusade."
Publishers contemplating the shift should also consider the evidence that it increases submissions and citations to the journal, even apart from increasing the productivity of researchers. If you were *thinking* about giving more to the Red Cross every month, at least you'd want the plus column to include the benefits to yourself as well as the benefits to others. With all respect to the Red Cross, the narrow self-interest of donating to the Red Cross is less than the narrow self-interest of shifting to OA, especially for smaller publishers excluded from big deals and facing a losing battle for shrinking library budgets under the subscription model. Reread Ahmed Hindawi's statement from 2010 that converting to OA was the best management decision his company ever made. That's not the way CEOs talk about upping their charitable donations.
* But #2: Most publishers allow author-initiated green OA. The percentage of surveyed publishers who do has declined as SHERPA/RoMEO surveys more publishers. But today SHERPA has surveyed more than 940 publishers, and reports that 55% allow postprint archiving, and 63% allow either preprint or postprint archiving.
Just as some gold OA publishers are making profits, some green TA publishers (TA publishers allowing green OA) are making very large profits. Elsevier falls into this category, for example, and it places no embargo on green OA. Permitting green OA is not impossible and it's not even a drag on revenue or profits. Publishers not ready to convert to gold OA should at least permit green OA. It doesn't require a financial hit and it doesn't require an emergency. And it would serve research (more in But #4 below), a major factor for non-profit society publishers committed to serving research more than serving stockholders.
The Nature Publishing Group puts a six month embargo on green OA, but has "actively encourag[ed] self-archiving since 2005" and reports that "to date, [it has] found author self-archiving compatible with subscription business models."
* But #3: The publishers already permitting green OA include the largest ones and most of the smaller ones. We still need to move the percentage of green TA publishers from 63% to something closer to 100%. But at the same time, we need to move the percentage of authors who take advantage of existing permissions from 15% to something closer to 100%. I'm looking at you, researchers. More often than not, you already have permission from your TA publishers to self-archive your work, and more often than not you don't take advantage of it. In that sense, the bulk of the OA shortfall can be traced to author inertia (preoccupation, unfamiliarity, misunderstanding) rather than publisher opposition.
There are three solutions to this problem. First, make green OA as familiar as gold OA to publishing researchers. This is a long slow process. I believe the curve is moving up, but the slope is shallow. Most researchers still don't understand their green OA options, and don't realize that publishing in a TA journal is usually compatible with depositing the peer-reviewed manuscript in an OA repository. The second and third solutions are funder and university OA mandates. The growth of OA depends on author decisions, but funders and universities are in an unmatched position to influence author decisions. If you regret the slow growth of OA, in routine circumstances as well as emergencies, then here's a simple strategy: make your own work OA; educate your colleagues about their OA options, especially their green OA options; and work for a strong OA policy at your institution.
(For what counts as a strong OA policy at funders and universities, see my article from February 2009.)
* But #4: Lifting access barriers in an emergency is a public acknowledgment that research is more useful when OA than when TA. It confirms what I've called the OA principle: the more knowledge matters, the more OA to that knowledge matters.
This proposition doesn't compare one set of OA articles with a control group of TA articles that might or might not be relevantly similar. We're talking about one and the same set of articles and data, without any "self-selection bias" or any of the other alleged confounders complicating the analysis of the citation impact advantage. Research is more useful after we lift access barriers than it was before, and publishers who lift access barriers in emergencies are admitting that.
This is the heart of the case for OA. It makes research more useful. When research is gratis OA, it reaches more people who can make use of it. Users needn't go without, and needn't rely on slow, unscalable methods like interlibrary loan and emails to authors. When research is libre OA, it can be used and reused in ways that exceed fair use. Users needn't slow down to ask for permission, risk proceeding without it, or err on the side of non-use.
Publishers may have financial reasons not to provide OA themselves. But reasons to stop short of gold OA aren't reasons to stop short of green OA. In any case, arguments against permitting or mandating green OA must be weighed against the fundamental background acknowledgement that OA research is more useful than TA research. My hope is that every publisher will remember this acknowledgement when considering or reconsidering its access policies. We need research to be as useful as possible every day, in routine circumstances, and not just in times of disaster. The "we" here are not just researchers but everyone who depends on research. The stakes are not always elevated by earthquake and tsunami, but they are elevated by illness, climate change, environmental degradation, species extinction, unsafe technologies, unsolved problems, and uninformed policies.
In a different context in 2009, I put the question this way: "Do we only want to solve the [access problem] in matters of life and death, or might we also want solve it in matters of scholarship, research, art, culture, and education?"
The question isn't whether we could give as much to the Red Cross every month as we manage to give in the aftermath of a humanitarian disaster. The question is whether we could make what we already do just as useful as emergency-level donations to the Red Cross.
When I give to the Red Cross in an emergency, I don't feel committed to do it every month. But I do feel blocked from arguing that donations to the Red Cross don't really help. Making that claim would be factually incorrect and personally inconsistent. Likewise publishers who provide free online access in an emergency are blocked from arguing that increased access isn't necessary or doesn't help, or that everyone who needs access already has access. Premise 1: There is an access problem. Working on solutions to this problem is not incendiary, but humanitarian in the broadest sense.
* Postscript. To keep this article a manageable size, I've tried to distinguish humanitarian relief in the wake of disasters from humanitarian relief to developing countries in the face of more chronic conditions, although I admit that the border between them is fuzzy. Hence, I haven't even tried to list the very many OA initiatives at work in the global south, day in and day out. But for lists of those initiatives, see:
EBSCO and Hasselt University's Open Science Directory
Ann Okerson's list of Developing Nations Initiatives (not updated since 2007)
The "oa.south" tag library from the OA Tracking Project (active since April 2009)
Five years ago in SOAN
See SOAN for April 2, 2006
* One essay in that issue: "Germany's DFG adopts an open access policy"
Excerpt: "The DFG is the largest research funder in Germany. While it's independent, like the RCUK in England, it disburses public funds. Hence, a DFG policy is a national policy, making Germany the second country after US the to adopt a policy encouraging or mandating OA to publicly-funded research....Is the DFG making a request, like the NIH, or imposing a requirement, like the Wellcome Trust? Neither, really. It says that authors *should* provide OA to their work (the German verb is sollen, not mussen), which is stronger than a request and weaker than a requirement....It remains to be seen whether this middle ground will be as effective as the Wellcome's mandate, as ineffective as the NIH's request, or something in between...."
* From the other top stories in that issue:
Scientists call for OA to avian flu data
Excerpt: "Most flu researchers deposit their data in a closed (non-OA) database run by WHO, which limits access to researchers in just 15 labs around the world. If the data were OA, it would be available to all who could use it or build on it for sequencing the virus genome, monitoring mutations, tracking outbreaks, and developing vaccines. WHO would like to share the data more widely, but protectionist countries threaten to stop depositing their data if WHO took that step, limiting the circulation of data even further than today. It says its hands are tied since it doesn't own the data and needs the permission of the data producers in order to share it. The first leak in the dam came when Italian flu researcher Ilaria Capua refused to deposit her flu data in the WHO database. Instead, she put it in GenBank, the OA database from NIH, and called on other flu researchers to do the same...."
Momentum builds for OA to geodata in the UK and EU
Excerpt: "On March 9 [2006], the Guardian newspaper in England launched a campaign for OA to publicly-funded geodata in the UK. Called Free Our Data, the campaign is the brainchild of Charles Arthur and Michael Cross, two Guardian journalists. Since the March 9 article, Arthur and Cross set up a campaign web site, launched a blog, wrote a second Guardian article on the topic, and persuaded Tim Berners-Lee to add his voice to the call. The Guardian campaign complements the Public Geodata campaign for OA to publicly-funded geodata throughout the EU. Unlike the US, the UK and EU generally do not provide OA to publicly-funded geodata. In the UK, the government agency collecting most of the data, the Ordnance Survey, is obliged by law to generate revenue to cover its costs. So part of the strategy behind Free Our Data is to show that OA to geodata would bring more revenue to the treasury, say, through taxes on mapping startups, than charging access fees...."
Universities launch OA presses
Excerpt: "The [university presses at the] University of Tennessee and Georgetown University launched OA imprints last month, in both cases using their libraries as critical partners...."
University of Minho uses financial incentives to implement its OA mandate
Excerpt: "Currently, five universities or departments worldwide mandate OA to their research output. All have good compliance records, but none achieves compliance by cracking the whip. They use a wide range of kinder and gentler methods, among which the financial incentives at Minho are unique. What I like about them is that they are directed to departments and research centers, not individual faculty. Because they're indirect, they create incentives for departments to create their own faculty-level incentives or to facilitate deposits through education and assistance...."
The ALPSP finds that journal prices are far more threatening than OA archiving
Excerpt: "The ALPSP published a report on factors considered by librarians in deciding whether to cancel journals. The [top] three factors were faculty demand, usage, and price. Availability through OA archives or non-OA aggregators were tied for fourth place "but some way behind" the first three. Bottom line: journals have much more to fear from their own price increases than from OA archiving...."
Ten years ago in SOAN
Ten years ago, SOAN was called FOSN (Free Online Scholarship Newsletter) and came out several times a month. Here are excerpts from three different issues 10 years ago this month.
* See FOSN for March 28, 2001
Excerpt: "This week's _Chronicle of Higher Education_ contains a summary of a promising movement in the natural sciences to boycott scholarly journals that do not put their contents online, free of charge, within six months of publication....The movement was started with a letter to the editor of _Science Magazine_, published in the March 23 [2001] issue....To accompany the letter, the authors have created a web site [called the Public Library of Science] to collect signatures supporting their idea. I urge you to visit the site and read the open letter there (not the same as the letter published in _Science_) and their FAQ...."
* See FOSN for April 6, 2001
Excerpt: "_Nature_ is sponsoring an online debate on the advantages and feasibility of free online scholarship in the sciences. The debate site contains an editorial, a series of articles directly discussing the main issues, and a forum for reader comments...."
Excerpt: "Instead of sending out a raft of personal emails whenever there is a new development in this area, I've decided to get organized and create a mailing list...." [This marked the transition of FOSN/SOAN from hand-addressed emails to a sign-up newsletter.]
* See FOSN for April 12, 2001
Excerpt: "I know I'm late to this, but I just discovered that the National Academy Press (NAP)...publishes all 1,800 of its books both in print and on the web. The web editions are unabridged and free of charge....NAP claims that its free web editions stimulate sales of its for-profit print editions...."
Last month I said that I didn't know of any full OA journals (as opposed to hybrid OA journals) published by Taylor & Francis. Here at least one: Acta Orthopaedica (previously Acta Orthopaedica Scandinavica).
If T&F has a list of all its full-OA journals, I haven't been able to find it.
Here's what happened, or what I noticed, since the last issue of the newsletter, emphasizing action and policy over scholarship and opinion. I put the most important items first, with double asterisks, and otherwise cluster them loosely by topic. I thank Katharine Dunn for her assistance in restating some of these developments for Roundup.
For a more comprehensive picture of recent OA developments, see --and help build-- the project feed of the OA Tracking Project.
Starting with this issue, the Roundup section will contain more quotations and fewer restatements. When I can find clear and concise quotations that tell the gist of the story, I'll use them. This will save time and minimize inaccuracy at the same time.
+ Policies
** The University of North Texas adopted an OA mandate.
** The University of Johannesburg Senate adopted an OA mandate in 2010 (and apparently didn't make it public until last month).
** The Emory University Faculty Council voted unanimously to launch an OA repository and recommend a university-wide OA policy.
** Argentina's National University of La Plata adopted an OA mandate for theses and dissertations.
http://sedici.unlp.edu.ar/ http://sedici.unlp.edu.ar/resolucion/resolucion_tesis98.pdf
** The Universidad Nacional de Colombia adopted an OA mandate for theses and dissertations. http://roarmap.eprints.org/403/
** The William Mitchell College of Law (St. Paul, Minnesota) launched an OA repository. I can't tell whether it also adopted an OA policy to fill it. The press release suggests either a policy or a serious effort to collect and deposit faculty publications: "William Mitchell College of Law recently made the scholarly writings of...[its] faculty available for free...." http://web.wmitchell.edu/news/2011/03/mitchell-open-access-offers-complete-collections-of-faculty-writing-at-no-cost/
** The Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences (Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, KNAW) announced an OA mandate in February. "In principle all publications by KNAW researchers will become freely accessible, preferably immediately after publication, but not later than a period of eighteen months. Research data will become freely accessible and will be stored sustainably, unless urgent reasons - such as privacy, statutory regulations - dictate otherwise. To support this policy two stimulation funds have been set up for the use of KNAW-researchers: one for publications and one for data....As a logical result of its policy the KNAW will take part in OAPEN, a collaborative project in which the feasibility of an economic model for open access book publishing is being investigated...."
** Germany's Social Democratic Party (SPD) introduced a bill in parliament amending Germany's Copyright Act to allow author-initiated green OA for publications when at least half the funding for the underlying research came from taxpayers. Authors would have this right notwithstanding any provisions in their publishing contract. Authors would have to respect a six month embargo journal articles and a 12 month embargo for some other publications.
* In February Helio Kuramoto launched a petition to the Brazilian Ministry of Science and Technology, asking it to support a pro-OA bill before the Brazilian parliament. (I can't tell what the bill would provide and welcome information about that.) The petition remains open for new signatures.
http://www.peticaopublica.com/PeticaoVer.aspx?pi=11202007 http://bcufrgs.blogspot.com/2011/03/open-access-no-brasil-o-pl-11202007.html
* Copyright reforms in Moldova that took effect on at the beginning of 2011 allow libraries "to make digital copies for preservation and replacement, the ability to create student course packs for short periods for education and classroom teaching, [and] reproduction for research or private purposes...."
* Denmark is moving closer to an OA mandate for publicly-funded research. From Google's English: "If science minister does not define a policy on free and open access to research articles, Danish National Research Foundation set its own rules...."
* The US Strategic Health IT Advanced Research Projects (SHARP) announced the programs it would support with funds from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA). The funding agreement contains an OA preference: "[Each grantee will] publish and otherwise disseminate these research findings, preferably in open source journals that maximize the accessibility of this knowledge to the entire health IT community...."
* The Arcadia Fund issued a call for strengthening the OA mandates for publicly-funded research in the UK, and and began collecting signatures.
* David Willetts, the UK Minister of State for Universities and Science, convened a roundtable discussion on OA, which included the heads of most of the Research Councils, JISC, RIN, the head of HEFCE, several publishers, learned societies, research charities, academics and consultants (disclosure: including myself). The government later issued a summary statement: "The Coalition [UK government] has a commitment to Open Access....The Roundtable appeared to recognise that OA has the potential to bring significant benefits to the academic community and through its effective translation, the wider economy and society. What is also clear is that whilst a trend towards OA is developing, how we move from �here to there� remains a major challenge....�Green� and �gold� are clearly different and whilst �gold� may be more appealing, it is not clear, from an OA perspective, that it provides the best solution or is sustainable. We need to consider where costs should fall....We will want to consider how we can best use the means to bring about change (including the REF, negotiations on improving the relevant EU directive and policy developments and proposals for the forthcoming White Paper on Higher Education) to push the issue forward in a collaborative way...."
* The UK Open Access Implementation Group called on authors to retain the rights to make their work green OA, so that the needn't obtain permission from publishers.
"Recently, some publishers have sought to negotiate directly with universities and research institutes on the terms and conditions under which the authors can deposit manuscripts of their own papers into repositories....The OAIG therefore wish to state our concern with publishers who seek to limit access by imposing unacceptable embargo periods on the deposit of authors' manuscripts in local, institutional or subject-based repositories. Authors should retain their right to deposit their own manuscripts, and this right should not be dependent on the later agreements to publish agreed with publishers. In particular, publishers should not seek to supersede any agreement between authors and their funders or institutions. These funders and institutions wish to see wide dissemination, with no artificial delays or embargoes. Furthermore, where collective arrangements for licensing exist that can already cover these issues (such as in the UK with clauses in the JISC Collections Model Licence), then such direct negotiation with individual universities is doubly unhelpful and risks undermining those collective arrangements. The UK Open Access Implementation Group calls on universities not to enter into one-to-one negotiations with publishers on self-archiving rights for their staff, and instead to rely on publicly declared rights as shown on the Sherpa-RoMEO website."
* A new report from the Royal Society recommends gold OA in order to promote South-North and North-South access to research. "[W]hat steps can the world take to enable omnipresent science? The report suggests concrete measures such as more open-access journals to allow poorer institutions to have access....Scientific capacity building must involve financial support for authors in developing countries to publish in open access journals. Open access publishing has made a wealth of scientific literature available to the developing world, but conversely has made it harder for their scientists to publish under the 'author pays' model...." (The report shows no awareness that most OA journals charge no publication fees, or that green OA is a low-cost alternative to gold OA.)
* The Justus-Liebig-Universit�t Gie�en adopted an OA resolution and a fund to pay publication fees at fee-based OA journals. From Google's English: "The Justus-Liebig-University supports its authors when publishing in open access journals....The scientific authors in the future JLU will also fund financially supported by a publication with a publication in Open Access journals. Thus, the JLU specifically promote the strategy of the Golden Way to Open Access....Also on the institutional publications server Giessen Electronic Library (CER), the scientists their articles using the open access publication are the world online...."
* The Harvard and MIT libraries announced plans to increase their levels of collaboration, including efforts to improve the storage and preservation of faculty papers deposited under their respective OA mandates.
* EIFL and SPARC Europe responded to public consultation on Slovenia's Research Infrastructure Development Plan 2011-2020. They "expressed our support for the establishment of a national open data and open publication infrastructure and mandatory deposition of publicly funded data and publications. We provided evidence for the benefit of open access policies and guidelines for how to best structure them...."
* The Netherlands National Commission for UNESCO finds grounds for supporting OA in the UNESCO constitution. "UNESCO supports Open Access for the benefit of the global flow of knowledge, innovation and equitable socio-economic development. Its Constitution, written long before the advent of digital publishing, gives the Organisation a clear mandate in this field: UNESCO should 'maintain, increase and diffuse knowledge, by assuring the conservation and protection of the world's inheritance of books, works of art and monuments of history and science' (Constitution, art, 1.2 c). Open Access is one of the three pillars of UNESCO's approach to increase access to scientific knowledge, together with the promotion of Free and Open Software (FOSS) and of Open Educational Resources (OERs)...."
* SPARC and the Alliance for Taxpayer Access called on Americans to recognize the third anniversary of the NIH OA mandate (April 7, 2011) by writing letters to three federal offices before April 14, 2011: "[1] Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), Kathleen Sebelius, calling for the expansion of the policy to other agencies within HHS. [2] Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP), John Holdren, for the expansion of the policy to federal agencies with extramural research budgets of $100 million or more. [3] Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Francis Collins, celebrating the success of the policy and encouraging a shorter embargo period...."
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
Police in at least two cities have been accused of coercing drivers to pull over so a federal contractor could ask them questions and for a swab of their saliva.
A private firm with a federal contract – and backed up by city police – forced motorists off Laurel Street in Reading, Pennsylvania, and into a private parking lot Friday to question them about their driving habits and ask for a swab of their mouth.
"I feel this incident is a gross abuse of power on many levels," Reading resident Ricardo Nieves, one of those stopped, told City Council Monday.
He said federal and local tax dollars were being used to stop innocent people without probable cause, and allow a private company to hire uniformed police to force citizens to listen to their questions.
He said he wasn't told what the swab was for, but added, "Clearly it was for DNA."
The checkpoint was among several being carried out in Pennsylvania by the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, hired by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy.
City Police Chief William M. Heim said the two federal agencies are trying to see what can be done about crashes and injuries, and the swabs were not to get DNA samples but to test for the presence of prescription drugs.
The checkpoint was supposed to be voluntary, but Nieves said he had to refuse several times over a five-minute period before the woman taking the survey let him go.
What irked Nieves was the presence of city police. He said they were there – including a police car with flashing lights – to intimidate motorists, and gave the checkpoint an air of authority it would not otherwise have had.
"A federal survey with local police help violates my rights," Nieves said.
Heim said city police were hired for site security only, since the survey takers were paying money for answers and for the swabs.
But he said city police did not pull motorists over, nor ask any questions, and in fact were asked to stay away from the cars.
Asked about Nieves' statement that the private firm wanted police there for intimidation, Heim responded: "People are not pressured by police presence to do something they don't want to.
"In the grand scheme of things, I think it's a pretty innocuous and minor issue."
Heim said checkpoints are fairly common – for seat belt use, drunken driving, truck safety regulations – and all result in minor inconvenience.
However, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania said those checkpoints are legal only to protect public safety.
"A car driver or passenger cannot be required or pressured into providing a DNA sample and, in fact, can't be stopped at all except on suspicion of a crime or for a properly conducted sobriety checkpoint," Mary Catherine Roper, senior staff attorney for the ACLU of Pennsylvania, told the Reading Eagle Monday.
The checkpoint was part of a $7.9 million, three-year survey by the agencies, which has been conducted several times since the 1970s.
The surveys have gained more scrutiny this year because the Obama administration has been heavily criticized over revelations that US spy agencies are tracking phone and Internet traffic, CNN reported in June.
Susan Watson, executive director of the Alabama chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, told CNN that Alabama's use of deputies to conduct the survey was an abuse of power.
Mayor Vaughn D. Spencer said neither he nor Managing Director Carole B. Snyder were aware of it, and he needs to understand what role police played before making any comment on it.
Council members also were upset, and said if local police are there, it appears they are operating the checkpoint.
Councilman Dennis M. Sterner was livid that government can't pick up local drug dealers without a two-year investigation, but can stop motorists at random.
"Our rights are being violated more and more every day," he said. "It's another way of government intrusion into our lives." readingeagle.com
Source: Press TV


text:
2011 Previews: N.L. Central
Wow do I not like this division. Cursed franchises, overrated also-rans, clubs that could be competitive but their owners keep the damn Luxury Tax money instead of investing it in a pitcher or two. My first brainstorming on this division produced no winner – and with the biggest division in the sport, this is highly unlikely. Let's try it again:
Chicago: Love Tyler Colvin and Starlin Castro and Andrew Cashner – and one of these guys is already gone, and I fear for a long time. Another one of them still may not get daily work (although the first base thing is a good idea). It is impossible to tell after a century of this crap if the Cubbies' curse is explained by the fact that they obtain overrated players at maximum cost (Kosuke Fukudome) or it is explained by the fact that they continue to play overrated players at maximum cost (Kosuke Fukudome). For crying out loud, Colvin/Byrd/Soriano is a decent outfield – have Fukudome go out and take tickets at the gate and just admit y'all screwed up. Losing Cashner and Randy Wells is not necessarily fatal but it doesn't help and barring a Jeff Samardzija renaissance there is nothing to hope for or with (see Kosuke Fukudome).
Cincinnati: This is where I point out that I picked this team last year – and for exactly the same reason I hesitate to pick them this year: starting pitching. The depth that made them obvious to me has been squandered: Sam LeCure is somehow the fifth starter (and this is while the flatlining Johnny Cueto is out) and Aroldis Chapman is wasted as a set-up man. I think the line-up is weaker this year with the switch at shortstop, and I would not bet my division on Scott Rolen going through a second consecutive season uninjured. Also, if you have a premier prospect like Yonder Alonso blocked at both of his possible positions, wouldn't you move him – at least for a prospect at a position you need some depth in, like shortstop? The Reds may win this thing but it won't be because they're a playoff-worthy team.
Houston: There are five positional starters (everybody but the outfield), at least one starting pitcher, and an entire bullpen that might not be able to compete for their current jobs on any other big league team. That would be a major, major problem.
Milwaukee: OK, here's my issue: Zack Greinke doesn't do well under pressure. The Brewers traded for him to become their number one starter on the premise that he would lead them to the division championship. This doesn't add up – not at the expense of swapping one of the game's rangiest shortstops (Alcides Escobar) for one of the game's most statue-like shortstops (Yuniesky Betancourt). And this fact doesn't even address Greinke's injury. I'm also a little worried about the outfield mix. Just because Carlos Gomez is disastrously laid back, and Nyjer Morgan is disastrously hyper, that does not mean they will somehow balance each other out.
Pittsburgh: Like Baltimore or Toronto, the line-up here is surprisingly solid and has an extremely high ceiling, and if a starting rotation were somehow delivered straight from the sky, the Pirates would be competitive. Unlike the O's and Jays, unfortunately, there's no group of top prospects at AAA to even provide identities for these new starters. For the Bucs these would have to be the winners of Lucky Fan Contests (I'm not buying Kevin Correia even at 2-0, although James McDonald might make a believer out of me). As suggested, this is very unfortunate because I think Andrew McCutchen is already one of the league's bright lights and Pedro Alvarez and Neil Walker looked, this spring, like they were on the verge of joining him.
St. Louis: Worst double-play combination in baseball. Hard to believe that an arrogantly, condescendingly, fundamental-thumping manager like Tony LaRussa would have actually broken camp with Schumaker and Theriot. Get them out of there and Daniel Descalso and Tyler Greene in and shoot for third place, or a shot at the title if the Brewers and Reds are both consumed by injuries. The irony here is that the Wainwright injury will probably reveal Kyle McClellan as one of the better new starters in the National League. It will also reveal that he was the linchpin in the bullpen and it will not hold up in his absence.
Overview: OK, 1. Cincinnati, 2. Milwaukee, 3. St. Louis, 4. Pittsburgh, 5. Chicago, 6. Houston (the big space in the division is between third and fourth).
16 Comments
I don't know, I wouldn't count Cincinnati out.
Two things:
1. Could you clarify who Johnny Cueto is flatlining? His K rates aren't quite what anybody had hoped, but he still threw pretty well last year.
2. There's no doubt that Rolen is important, but did you see his numbers in the second half of the year? He might as well have been injured. If he does go down, I don't think it's a crushing loss. You lose a lot of defense, but the rest of the team can make up for that.
Oh, and I'm not sure there's really much of drop off offensively at SS. Even if there is, the defense more than makes up for it.
Aaron, my own experience seems to indicated that it's largely a problem with Dodgers fans rather than baseball fans as a whole. I'm in San Diego and I stopped going to Padres/Dodgers games because there are always too many belligerent LA fans at the games, yet another disadvantage of living less than two hours away from Chavez Ravine.
ko, i was hoping you would comment on what happened at dodger stadium on opening day, and how pro sports overall, is not as family friendly as it once was
im a giants fan, but i used to go to dodgers stadium alot
i havent been there for 2 year as a result of the change in atmosphere
I hate when owner keep the luxury tax money and don't spend it on their teams then cry how poor they are that they can't compete with the big guys. That money was meant to get players on the field, not line the owner's pockets.
My nightmare as a Pirate fan is that the management will decide to get that needed great pitching by *trading away* McCutcheon and Alvarez and/or Walker and we'll be doomed again for another 19 years.
Keith, was sorry to see Dirk Hayhurst didn't make the big club, but you have to wonder… is there enough material in Durham for another book ( we have already seen the movie…)
One counter to your opinion on the Reds. The Reds find ways to win ball games, they can win 1-0 or like last night they got behind early and end up winning 12-4. These guys enjoy playing together and the sweep by the phils in the playoffs last season is in the back of these players minds and will serve as motivation for this season. To your point about chapman being wasted, you of all people know that moving a guy up to the rotation to soon could screw the guy up for the future ie..Joba Chamberlain. They have the 8th and 9th innings on lockdown with chapman and cordero, why mess with that. Please give me your thoughts would like to hear more about how this team will not b a playoff worthy team when they make the playoffs
I'm from Cincinnati & have always been a Reds fan… had to to move to Fort Wayne, Indiana when husband's job transferred him. Watched them win the Pennant from FW in 1975 (what a year!), 1976, & again in 1990. Never count the Reds out because they're a come-back team! They're looking pretty good about now, too. Memories of 1990 spring to mind! 🙂
The Reds should coast in the Central, and that means they have as good a shot at the crown as any team in the show, Yankees aside. Fun team to watch, too, and I say this as a Detroit Tiger fan in exile.
Another lazy assessment of the Cubs by the national media. As usual. It's easy to talk about curses and 100+ years. Wow, yes, the curse is because they overpay players, a phenomenon that began about a decade ago. That must be it.
Cashner is out for a few weeks. Not 'a long time'. And he's a fifth starter. Solid performance by Dempster, Zambrano and Garza is a lot more important than losing a 5th starter for a month.
Colvin will get enough at-bats filling in for Fuk, Soriano and now Pena. The worse Fuk plays, the more at-bats Colvin will get. Early in the year (as he does every year), Fuk has played well. You are obsessed with Fuk. Either he continues to play well, or he doesn't play, get over it.
The Reds are the class of the division. No dispute here. But reading your capsules of the NL Central, I can't help but wonder if you or your minions have done ANY research on the division, or if you're just parroting what you've heard others say. Stick to the AL East.
The Cubs are not cursed. The idea of curse in any part of life is some twisted, mystical way of thinking. It is the very basis of the loser's mindset. It can't be me. It must be someone or something else. The bottom line: the Cubs won zero world titles in over 100 years because they were not good enough. There I wrote the truth. All other excuses are useless.
KO – The Reds starting pitching is going to be fine, particularly with that line-up and defensive behind them. They do miss as the set-up guy though. Rhodes. Also, nice call on the Pirates.
Keith, I hope you are not lumping The Milwaukee Brewers into the "clubs that could be competitive but their owners keep the damn Luxury Tax money instead of investing it in a pitcher or two".
Milwaukee does have a natural disadvantage by being in the smallest media market in baseball but they have steadily been investing more into their team. Beside some big contracts that didn't really pan out (Suppan, Gagne, Hall), most of their payroll has been wisely spent and payroll is consistently increasing.
Since Mark Attanasio purchased the team from the Selig family in 2004 to 2010, player payroll has gone from $29,599,934 to $94,554,209 a staggering increase of 219 percent.
Why do you have to be so right? I have to live with the Cubs now and I deserve sympathy. Cubs fans are diehard. We have eternal faith and have secretly suffered more abuse from our team and the baseball gods then any fans in history in the sports free world. We are singularly unique and I think baseball critics should focus their commentary and analysis on Cubs fans and just ignore the team. After all, we are the only part of the Chicago NL equation that have performed like winners. If you did enough of that, who knows, it might be an impetus for the team to come up to par with it's fans!
It wasn't always this bad for me. I grew up in New York and my greatest thrill was the Amazing Mets of 1969. I don't even want to think about being a Cubs fan that year! Ron Santo and scores of fans were permanently scared with that experience. The "bleacher bums" have never given up after all these years without redemption. I spent half of my 60+ years in New York and half here in the Midwest and I can tell you, this kind of fan support could never happen in New York. You have to respect and honor fans of this level so when it comes to the Cubs, just write about the fans and forget the team. It would make a unique division analysis and a fitting one.


text:
WINNETKA, Ill., Sept. 18 (UPI) -- Police in an affluent Chicago suburb are investigating alleged sexting by students at one of the most prestigious public high schools in the United States.
Linda Yonke, superintendent at New Trier High School in Winnetka, Ill., notified parents Friday via email that the school district had referred to police allegations of students sending inappropriate material by text message, the Chicago Tribune reported. She said the district is conducting its own investigation.
Police would release no details about the investigation.
"Out of respect for student privacy and due to the ongoing police investigation, we cannot share any other details at this time," Yonke said. "All of the parents of students interviewed by New Trier staff have been contacted and informed about the issue."
Winnetka is 16 miles from Chicago on the North Shore. New Trier has long been known for its academic excellence and high per-capita spending.


text:
|This page is an archive. Please do not edit this archive, instead try editing the page this archive originated from.
Should we merge this and Gedo Statue articles or better to wait for the next chapter for more info?--Elveonora (talk) 17:03, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
- I vote for the latter. Too many unknowns to do that and even if, they're two separate things. The statue just seems like a body for the Ten-Tails to inhibit, not its actual body which was sealed into the moon.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:20, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Definitely wait. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:24, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should wait because theoretically the Ten-tails was firstly closed inside the Moon, which was a chibaku tensei of the Rikodou, so it is not sure if the Gedo Mazou is really some sort of container/invocating statue or not. Actually I'm not even sure on how will the ten-tails let Tobi go on with his plans and how will the statue affect on that. So I think they shouldn't be merged even knowing it, because maybe they're different things. Template loop detected: User:Khaliszt/sig subst
- Definitely wait. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:24, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
Doesn't make much sense, Gedo Statue + chakra of all beasts = Ten-Tails, thus it must be it's body.--Elveonora (talk) 17:26, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
Confirmed. Gedo mazo is the ten tails body. Merge. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 17:28, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
^ Yes, because Madara said the Rinnegan enabled him to break the seal of the Sage that held the Ten-tails's body in it.
In Chapter 610 page 6, Madara refers to the Ten-Tails as "Mazo"... Does this not confirm that the Gedo Mazo is the Ten-Tails after all... Merger time?...--D!ABLO-32 (talk) 13:42, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Still against it. This chapter also gave the Ten-Tails a characteristic the statue was never mentioned to have, being like a force of nature, and as such being sensable by Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:13, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
its just words swaying madara says chakra of the mazo, obito says power of the juubi, meh. or btw elvenora its just all bijuu chakra, the juubi is the fusion of all tailed beasts not body, it can go from body to body chris brown yeahaaa.--Manga-anime90001 (talk) 10:47, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
New Image
Excuse me...Members of the Wiki, I am a Naruto fan that likes to be surfing in this Wiki, I just checked the new Naruto chapter that debuted today, where Kurama explained to everyone what he knew about the Ten-Tails, and while he was doing it, a new image of the Ten-Tails was seen, even if it was only its back, the Ten-Tails looked kinda different, with more spiky protusions on its back and on its tails. Shouldn't this be added to the Appearence part of his page? —This unsigned comment was made by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs) .
On your point if you are talking about the appearance in the manga no I don't think the image should change because as it says and shows that is its incomplete form, it only shows with 6-9 tomeo and that it has no legs, wait until the next chapter as it appears it's form is changing. --Elvesyou 16:36, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
I saw User:Cerez365 added son info on the other Jübi name, Datara. But I create this page to discuss it because referring to the source he used, it had only one leg, and we can see the Ten-Tails has more than one.. Anyway I just want to discuss why this would be like that, and NOT the fact that it was corrected to Datara, I think Cerez365 searched and took an extremely accurate source, even taking to consider the "blacksmithing" thing, it's been said that the Ten-tails created many things so it wouldn't be surprising! My guess is simply that a Beast with only one leg is much more unsurprising that such of a Beast like Ten Tails.. and Kishimoto knows that, lol Khaliszt (talk)
Tailed beasts
Should we go on treating them as "it"? Kurama wouldn't be happy about it.. Khaliszt (talk)
- They've never been referred to with gender-specific pronouns in Japanese. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:05, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think we should treat it as a Tailed Beasts, as they were created by So6p from it's chakra... it's more of a God/demon if anything. Even though it was sealed in the grandpa Rikudou, Tailed Beasts are just a mass of living chakra (physical and spiritual energy given soul/consciousness) while the Ten-Tail's chakra got ripped and it's body remained and it had to be sealed in the moon. Not to mention it's highly likely that Gedo Statue Guy is "it" thus that goes against the definition of a Tailed Beasts (being chakra monster) while the Ten-Tails was "the progenitor"--Elveonora (talk) 11:29, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
Species (infobox)
Should we list it as a demon? --The Goblin 17:36, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Wouldn't classifying it/ the tailed beasts as demons inaccurate o.O?--Cerez365™(talk) 17:48, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
I don't this we should even list it as a "tailed beast" because see above... I'm for a "deity" or something--Elveonora (talk) 22:41, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
Chapter 510
This is the best scan I could find of chapter 510, and the eye seems to be missing the tomoes for me.
Fox616 (talk) 16:46, September 27, 2012 (UTC)
"the progenitor"
Shouldn't we include such title in it's infobox?--Elveonora (talk) 00:02, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
'Progenitor' means an ancestor in the direct line. The tailed beasts, and the sage were implying this to naruto, kurama thought back on.
bump lol, even the chapter is called as such--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
Why is it that the silhouette of the Ten-Tails still being used? The only thing possibly wrong was the missing set of tomoe but in chapter 606, when Madara sent Obito into a genjutsu to explain his plan, when Madara depicted the Ten-Tails carving it was shown with only 2 rows of tomoe. Kishi could have changed the design, he has done so with other things. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 11:50, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
Bump18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:35,
November 19, 2012 (UTC)
You are indeed correct--Elveonora (talk) 02:48, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't jump to that answer. The mural in 606 only really shows the face and is frightfully inadequate being a mural of the creature with the sage in it. If anything the image at the end of 609 is better, but given we're likely to get an even better picture of it next week, I think the higher ups basically decided it was pointless to swap it out when a better image was right around the corner and chose wait it out. If for some reason we don't get a new picture, we'll likely swap it out for the full body shot in 609. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:24, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
I think the main point is that the eye appears to have been retconned.--Elveonora (talk) 03:28, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
True, but the question was, why are we still using the silhouette image. Simple answer, even if retconned a mural picture doesn't cut it and timing allows for us to get a better shot come the small hours of Wednesday morning. So all we need to resolve that matter is a little patience. But if it's that big a deal, trivia about the seeming retcon can be added to trivia, right? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:34, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
What retcon is everybody talking about regarding the eye? So it's missing a ring and three tomoe, it makes sense, considering that the Ten-Tails is technically incomplete. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:45, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
It has such eye in chapter 606 as well on the "wall" --Elveonora (talk) 20:48, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
As of the latest chapter , when i look at the Jūbi's eye it look like a mix of a Sharingan and Rinnegan--Tchad1 (talk) 13:24, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
We should update the image now. Any good ones from the latest chapter? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:30, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- In my opinion, there are none. Every picture of the Ten-Tails has just been awful.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:02, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Hell the best picture of it is when it roars, and that is still terrible.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:03, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not a fan of it's appearance myself, but given we can't dictate the will of Kishi, just gotta get on with it. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:19, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- I think the latest chapter gave us enough good images. Derigar (talk) 19:36, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
The reason why the tentails is "awfully displayed is becaused it is fully formed due to not having the 8 tails and nine tails sealed in the gedo mazou before hand. --Naruto6paths (talk) 19:53, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I never expected my one question to get this much response, but I want to add that I dont agree with the last post. I think the Ten-Tails appearance has been retconned, the two sihlouette used for this page don't exactly match how Kurama explained the Ten-Tails to Naruto. The two images were from times that Obito talked about the Ten-Tails, which were from a couple years ago. Kurama is more reliable to its appearance than Obito because Kurama is a part of the Ten-Tails. Also the two remaining biju regonise it as the Ten-Tails, I would expect them to say something if it looked different. Also the mural from chapter 606 depicted it with how it looks like now in chapter 610. I can expect that the higher ups and some others to not agree on this, but keep an open mind because we might have a new flashback in upcoming chapters depicting the complete Ten-Tails with all its details because Kishi has no reason to shade it all anymore.--184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:31, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
This is naruto 6 paths speaking, the 10 tails from what you saw there is an incomplete ten-tails. You can say its like an incomplete sharingan it hasn't been completed to its potential. --188.8.131.52 (talk) 14:10, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
But both the Eight-Tails and Nine-Tails both say that is the Ten-Tails. I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't say anything if it changed as much as this wiki says. But it doesn't change the fact that its appearance has changed a significantly from the silhouette from a couple years ago.--220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:47, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe it can take on more forms, but I'm sure the eye is a retcon, unless it's an error in chapter 606--Elveonora (talk) 04:01, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the eye being a retcon, also the spikey protrustions on its back.--18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:13, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
Plant-like Appearance
Ok, it's pretty obvious the Ten-Tails has a plant-like look. It's body is covered by veins, its tails look like closed buds (and in its complete form those ones looks like foliage) and it has branch-like spiky protrusions on its back (well, the Mazou also have them, but you get the idea) I think it's worthy to add that to the Appearance section. Adept-eX (talk) 02:05, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
It's kinda plantish, it's skin is wooden--Elveonora (talk) 02:36, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
- It's skin is what? I highly doubt that beast's body has the same construct as the statue. It looks like it has flesh. Also, I'd assume you're saying it looks plant-like simply because of the lines on its body, which I don't see.--Cerez365™(talk) 07:21, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
Even those things connected to Obito and Madara are the same as from Hashi clone/Gedo statue so I guess it still has woodish/plantish texture--Elveonora (talk) 22:23, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
Didn't a ton of people guess the Gedo Mazo's statue was made of wood? I suggest holding off until it's texture is made clearly visible by the anime or a colored manga page. Skarrj (talk) 10:08, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the way the tail is unfurling at the end of the latest chapter, this theory may officially have weight. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 20:12, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
Ok... So Madara and Tobi both physically connect with the Ten-Tails, giving them the ability to control it. This ability to connect is mentioned on the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path's page, though not here. Skarrj (talk) 10:12, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
- Because the aforementioned connection was with the living clone, not directly with the statue. We're all unclear what's going on there.--Cerez365™(talk) 10:31, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
Natural Energy
In the mangastream translation, naruto says its essentially a giant mass of natural energy. Can someone please translate to see if this is accurate? If so, it should be added to the abilities/trivia section. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 00:53, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
- Raws aren't available yet, at least not where I usually read them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:05, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
Current Appearance
I think the Ten-Tails still has a chance of maturing based on Madara saying controlling it will get more difficult. I understand that as its getting stronger and has a chance to mature more. The thing took one step closer to looking like its sihlouette but then two steps back because it grew weird horn things on its head, its missing a arm and is emaciated. As I type its current appearance at the time is being used to showcase its real appearance and would like it to be changed back to its old appearance.--18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:29, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
It likely has multiple forms and no "true form" as it changes constantly. EDIT: it's said to be a force of nature, maybe it's some sort of adaptation--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
eye retcon again
The article says that the Ten-Tails has 6 tomoe instead of 9 cause it's incomplete, completely ignoring the fact that it also had such in Madara's "flashback dimension" and it's present even after it's transformation. It's apparent that Kishi changed his mind about this one--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
bump--Elveonora (talk) 23:36, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Still makes more sense, and in all of the actual flashback depictions, it had nine tomoe. The Ten-Tails in that genjutsu looked as faithful to the original as the murals of Matatabi and Gyūki look to them in the Island Turtle, which isn't that much, just enough for us to know what it was. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:04, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
We don't know either way, that's why I think the whole mention of "having 6 tomoe due to being incomplete" should be removed, and a trivia made instead with: "in it's initial appearance it had 9 tomoe words words words but since words words words it's portrayed with 6" so it's true both ways and everyone can make their own opinion of it--Elveonora (talk) 00:15, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
Just pointing out, not only it has 6 tomoe in Madara's mural, but also in manga's "creation of all things" image, there's 6 tomoe as well, so the thing "due to being incomplete" should be removed--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
In chapter 612 on the last page in the last panel, there's no word about maturity or perfect stage. It says something about suitable/good time (頃合い), but I don't know what the よう means. :/ Seelentau 愛議 19:16, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Take your pick. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:56, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
- I know, but I don't know which it could be, there are too many options :/ But I doubt the meaning of it would change the meaning of the whole sentence to something along maturity... Seelentau 愛議 21:37, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
よう simply means it seems. So there's no word about maturity or such, Madara/Obito just says that "the Jūbi seems to be just right". :) Seelentau 愛議 04:53, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
Incomplete Mature form
FYI, the Ten-Tails' mature form is still incomplete. I bet that it will be fully complete on maybe the final arc.
--Pipeliz265 (talk) 21:13, December 12, 2012 (UTC)---- Pipeliz265
How is its eye being used to target speculation?
We specifically see it on 613, page 6, shift its eye around and began targeting, trying to hit HQ. How else were we supposed to interpret that scene other than the very obvious?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 09:13, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Unless it's blind, an eye can see lol--Elveonora (talk) 23:36, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Chapter 613 - The scale of the Juubi's latest Bijuudama
I think you're going to want to mention the scale of the bijuudamas this new Juubi form is producing.
If you look carefully at the double page where the first Bijuudama is fired you'll notice the five lakes from the first bijuudamas from the junchuuriki. Also you'll notice a long trail with the Juubi in it which I believe was created by the Hachibi and Kyuubi's combined bijuudama.
However the Bijuudama in the background is unreal in how large it is when you compare it to the old bijuudamas.
I'm not sure how you would but this'd be a really good thing to show in the abilities section of the Juubi's page as a comparison. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 22:46, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
- The long trail was probably due to the immature form's Bijuudama beam...--JOA20 (talk) 15:51, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Would't that be a ark? the idea that it's from Kurama's and Gyūki's combined Bijuudama makes more sense to me.(22.214.171.124 (talk) 14:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC))
Mokuton/Wood Release
In chapter 614, it can be seen that Obito is using the Ten-Tails' body as a medium to throw the Wood Piercing Branches. I suggest we shouldn't put it like the beast can use Wood Release, but instead it can launch the techniques created by its controller.--JOA20 (talk) 15:54, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
It should be listed as a user of the technique but having hit as a pure user of wood release would be complicated to explain. --Naruto6paths (talk) 16:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Ergo why it shouldn't be listed because it wasn't the one using it.--Cerez365™(talk) 16:52, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think soo...usually chanelling chakra is done from a user to an object, not a living being, and its usually just the chakra, not the entire technique...and we know that tailed beasts can use/have nature transformations. Besides Obito could have only been directing the beast to attack. Son Goku/Lava Release for one? So i do believe that it could use the Wood Release...it would also partially explain the origin of it and how it went to Hashirama. Darksusanoo (talk) 16:54, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Do note; until Naruto took control of the Nine-Tails, he was never listed as using the Tailed Beast Ball as someone else (the Nine-Tails) was in control of his body. It would not be beyond the realm of reason to believe the same is happening now.
- That being said, it is entirely possible the Ten-Tails could use Wood Release, but until the beast starts moving on it's own, I honestly can't say.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:15, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- And I repeat, when Naruto used the Tailed Beast Ball during the Invasion of Pain, he wasn't listed as a user because, he didn't actually use it. Same deal here to be honest but discuss away.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:24, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- The difference is: Naruto is a jinchuriki...the nine-tails is sealed inside him in a way that Naruto can channel the beast's powers. With the Ten-Tails this is not the case, it isn't sealed into anyone it used it on his own...i think the problem is that he used the same technique as Obito. Plus it's true, were complicating the issue too much. The Ten-Tails used the technique, he can use it, then list him. Anything other than that.... that will be speculation. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:30, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- And I repeat, when Naruto used the Tailed Beast Ball during the Invasion of Pain, he wasn't listed as a user because, he didn't actually use it. Same deal here to be honest but discuss away.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:24, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
Anything other than that would be speculation? Alrighty, let's list Yahiko as a user of Shinra Tensei then. After all, his body performed the technique, even if he was just Nagato's little Rinnegan Puppet, right? The flaw in your argument here is that we're given a vague proposition. We have the Ten Tails launching a wood release technique. The problem is, its being controlled by Obito and only used a technique he has. Now I don't have a position on this, it's honestly up in the air for me to call, but let's not dissuade others opinions as speculation. It's fact that the Ten Tails performed the technique, but that's like saying just cause Gaara uses Shukakus sand its the beast's ability and not his. The Beast could be no more than facilitating this ability, not being an actual user. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:15, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- And the flaws in your arguments are thus...first Yahiko was dead when he was made a Six Paths of Pain puppet. The modifications to him were done post-mortem. And the difference is neither Obito nor Madara are the beast's jinchuriki by which neither can use the beast's techniques and vice-versa. Gaara retained his ability to use sand, but he only gained it by being Shukaku's jinchuriki. This is like saying that Son Goku's Flower Fruit Mountain technique is not his own...it could have been something developed by Roshi, but again we don't know. If someone uses a technique, list them as a user and unless contradictory evidence appears, let it stay. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:11, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
So now i ask...when have ever seen a situation like this? A technique being channeled through another living being? What's the point? Why not use it himself? I also ask what's more speculative? That the beast can use Mokuton or that Obito pulled off a completely new concept? Besides Obito and Madara mentioned they were taking a back seat to use the beast's powers soo...Darksusanoo (talk) 23:15, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
Since Ten-Tails is flowrish/treeish, I say it's possible for it to be the source of Wood Release (along with Sharingan and Rinnegan) but that's just my mumbling :) On topic, I say we should add Ten-Tails as a user, because not adding it is the same logic as removing Tailed Beast Ball from it's infobox since it's being controlled and not using it by itself--Elveonora (talk) 23:18, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
Safer and most logical approach to me, for now, is to keep Obito as the technique's only user, and say he used it through the Ten-Tails. He even did a hand gesture and all, as if performing the motion of the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:27, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
What about a collaborative technique "large fast spikes wood no jutsu, obito uchiha with ten-tails" or something?;)--Elveonora (talk) 02:52, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
"Sigh"...it was the Ten-Tails who used the technique...i don't remember chakra flow working through living beings and neither saw one technique being used through another being as well. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:01, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
That's why I'm saying we should treat it as been done by both of them to avoid speculation. Also I doubt Obito is THAT strong, he either used Ten-Tails' chakra (but he ain't a jinchuriky so how?) thus unlikely, channeled Wood Release through Ten-Tails (this still makes the Ten-Tails a user) or it was work of the monster alone with Obito just giving order, you decide--Elveonora (talk) 03:07, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
- The more direct and simple explanation is that Obito commanded the beast to use the technique, since that's pretty much what he's focused on...i doubt he'd waste his own chakra into a technique since both Uchiha are struggling a bit to control the juubi as it is so they are pretty much focused on that. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:11, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Two things
- 1) People appear to be gleefully ignoring my point that if something isn't in control of it's actions, it doesn't get listed as using it. I will remind people again, Naruto didn't get Tailed Beast Ball added to his infobox, until he got Tailed Beast Mode and did it then. Tobi focusing a jutsu through the Ten-Tails is the same as the Nine-Tails focusing the Tailed Beast Ball through Naruto.
- 2) Someone made the point to remove the Tailed Beast Ball from the Ten-Tails because Obito and Madara had made the demon do it. Unlike the above, the Tailed Beast Ball is literally the demon attack. Even if Madara and Obito never fired a shot, it would be listed because all tailed beasts have it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 05:28, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
- And you seem to forget the difference between Naruto and Madara/Tobi is that the first is a jinchuriki in other words the beast and it's powers are sealed and can be channeled because of it. The latter ones are just controling the monster. It's like the difference between driving a machine and becoming the machine itself. Another thing...yeah Obito's powerful, but to pull off a Wood Release of that scale given the difficulty to use this kekkei genkai it seems difficult at best when they are already struggling to keep the Ten-Tails under control seems off. Darksusanoo (talk) 19:38, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Since the ten tails is the maifestation of almost everything, it should be able to use every nature, even ying and yang release and everything else. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:41, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
- If chakra isn't able to be transfered into living beings then why was Tsunade and several others able to transfer chakra to other poeple (sarcasim)?126.96.36.199 (talk) 00:25, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
- One thing is using chakra to heal/replenish another person, the other is using another person as a medium for one's own technique which seems as a much more far-fetched concept than the Ten-Tails being able to use the Wood Release on his own. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:33, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Chiyo used Naruto's chakra to help with her Reanimation Technique remember?126.96.36.199 (talk) 00:40, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
- Again same difference: Chakra flow vs technique medium. Chiyo used Naruto's chakra cuz she was empty, she didn't use Naruto as a medium for it, she was still the one using the technique. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:44, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
- True. But it doesn't mean that it's impossible.22.214.171.124 (talk) 01:02, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
- Again same difference: Chakra flow vs technique medium. Chiyo used Naruto's chakra cuz she was empty, she didn't use Naruto as a medium for it, she was still the one using the technique. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:44, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Chiyo used Naruto's chakra to help with her Reanimation Technique remember?22.214.171.124 (talk) 00:40, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
- One thing is using chakra to heal/replenish another person, the other is using another person as a medium for one's own technique which seems as a much more far-fetched concept than the Ten-Tails being able to use the Wood Release on his own. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:33, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
It seems a bit difficult to accept that Obito could pull off something of that scale, since his Wood Release abilities aren't all that powerful nor is his control over the Ten-Tails perfect and also that the chakra flow concept is from a person to an object, not from a living being to another. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:33, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
Chakra Arms?
Various articles refer to Ten-Tails' hand-like tails in its second form as "chakra arms", like those used by jinchūriki in Version 1/2. However, the arms are actually part of the Ten-Tails' physical anatomy, not formed from chakra. Unlike the tailed beasts, it actually possesses a true physical body, rather than being chakra given solid form. For consistency, should these articles not be changed to reflect this fact?--BeyondRed (talk) 23:15, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the term chakra arms are being used wrong in this case, they aren't arms made of chakra, they are simply the Ten-Tails' tails, that now are tipped with hands. Freaky little thing isn't it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:17, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
Given how the tailed beasts are basically chakra constructs, the extra arms can be put under this banner. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:26, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
- No they can't. He is not using the chakra arms at all. The Ten-Tails is using its tails as hands, nothing more. Ultimate is right, it should be removed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:01, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Chakra arms come in a variety of ways so the fact that the Ten-Tails uses the arm in a different manner does not invalidate that fact. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:37, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Chakra arms have one universal trait though; they are made of pure chakra. When Killer Bee uses the Eight-Tails' tentacle tails for stuff, he is not using chakra arms, he is using tails. The Ten-Tails using it's hand-tail monstrosities are not using chakra arms, but its freaky hand-tail monstrosities.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:03, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- And tailed beasts also have a universal trait: they are also made of pure chakra, so in this case it may be that the Juubi is simply putting a spin onto a classic. I believe that tails or not, if they are extra arms, they are chakra arms.Darksusanoo (talk) 04:18, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Chakra arms have one universal trait though; they are made of pure chakra. When Killer Bee uses the Eight-Tails' tentacle tails for stuff, he is not using chakra arms, he is using tails. The Ten-Tails using it's hand-tail monstrosities are not using chakra arms, but its freaky hand-tail monstrosities.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:03, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Chakra arms come in a variety of ways so the fact that the Ten-Tails uses the arm in a different manner does not invalidate that fact. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:37, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Except Ten-Tails isn't a Tailed Beast, it's a tailed beast. People should realize that, Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tail's chakra split into 9 and given physical form and soul/mind.--Elveonora (talk) 04:25, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Then by that standart none of the techniques that list him as a user should be there. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:34, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
You misunderstand... it's the origin of Tailed Beasts, but not one itself, there's just not a better classification yet. God/demon/monster/nature itself whatever. The point being that it's not animated chakra, it was a physical being, stayed a physical being after it's chakra has been split and still is. In short, it doesn't use chakra arms, those are it's body--Elveonora (talk) 04:40, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Since it's the origin, it has multiple tails, and how they keep repeating that all the tailed beast abilities are by-products of the Juubi's powers and that it can be sealed into a human to create a jinchuuriki, it's still a tailed beast. Just because something is the origin of a category, doesnt mean it isn't a part of said category. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:44, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
For the first, exactly, it's a "tailed beasts" because it has tails and being a monster and all. Orochimaru was absorbed by Sasuke and the latter could use his abilities, does that make Sasuke an ex-jinchuriky now? The series made it clear that things can be sealed into other things and even people--Elveonora (talk) 04:54, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- The Sage of the Six Paths was the first jinchuriki, the Juubi is stated as a tailed beast, the first one. Madara's goal is to become a jinchuriki for the TT so i fail to see your point. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:58, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Apparently "_" well the topic is about arms, so let's stick with arms--Elveonora (talk) 06:04, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, stick to the topic at hand, which are the status of Chakra Arms. To respond to Darksusanoo, no. The Eight-Tails, well eight tails are all technically arms. Six of the Seven-Tails' tails are wings. Whatever strange form their tails end up taking, they are still tails.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:25, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe offtopic, but if I'm not mistaken, Killer B uses "chakra arms" that aren't really arms but horns in his cloak 1 Lariat. Maybe we should rename it "chakra limbs/appendages/manifestation" or something. But yeah, the Ten-Tails. No, not made of chakra thus not chakra arms. I vote for removal of such mentions in all instances--Elveonora (talk) 01:48, December 22, 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. No matter how Darksusanoo rephrases it, the fact is that the Ten-Tails has used the Tailed Beast Ball. It used the shockwave right away. But it has not, under any circumstances, used the Tailed Beast Chakra Arms. It simply used its physical tails (no matter how they are shaped) to attack. Period. It should be removed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:44, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
Demonic Statue and Ten-Tails abilities
Since the Statue and Ten-Tails are one and the same, i think that all of the abilities/attacks shown by the Statue, should also be stated in the Ten-Tails Infobox and abilities section. Even if what it used as the Statue was gained by outside means, it didn't lose then when it became complete as the Ten-Tails. Opinions are welcome and needed. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:08, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
- The Ten-Tails hasn't shown the ability to shoot chakra lasers or have shown a shockwave shout, so yes from what it looks like it did lose something. We can't say what the statue does the full Ten-Tails could do.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:12, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
- There are one and the same...if it were the other way around i would agree with you, but it's extremely implausible for the complete thing not being capable of doing the what i could do when it was incomplete...plus the whole shockwave looks more like it's equivalent the Tailed Beast Skill than anything else. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:17, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
Ha, this topic again, I love it. Well, humans lost their fur and tails ;D--Elveonora (talk) 22:51, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
- Well @Elve...that's reality, this is manga/anime...it's perferctly reasonable that what the beast could do in a de-powered state, he could also do in it near-full power state. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:28, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
Since they are the same entity, it should be merged, we don't list Naruto in Sage Mode and Kurama mode as 2 different characters--Elveonora (talk) 23:49, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
- The difference being, Naruto doesn't stop being Naruto when he powers up. The Ten-Tails stopped being the Ten-Tails when it died. It's body was then used to become the Demonic Statue. This has been discussed to death.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:21, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
It NEVER died, where do you get that from?--Elveonora (talk) 00:48, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Died, chakra removed, whatever. It for all extensive purposes died when it's chakra was removed. Anyway the only logical way to justify the two articles being merged would be that you must also justify why the other tailed beast aren't merged. They are after all parts of the Ten-Tails too.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:06, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
It never died, stop making things up, it stayed pretty much alive. TB are their own entities, just because their bodies were created from Jubi's chakra doesn't make them one with it.--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
- But following your logic, yeah it kinda does. The Demonic Statue by your logic is no different from the other Tailed Beasts, it is a different entity from the monster it came from in that it is a statue, just like the Nine-Tails is different from the monster it came from in that it is a giant fox. Unless you deliberately pick and choose if the Demonic Statue, being the empty body of the Ten-Tails given a new purpose, is different than the Tailed Beast, is the chakra of the Ten-Tails given new forms and a new purpose, then they cannot and should not be merged.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:33, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
The Statue is Ten-Tails stripped of most of it's chakra, it never died. TB are animated chakra, in other words, Ten-Tails never died nor ceased to be it's own entity, it just got weakened--Elveonora (talk) 15:42, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Then explain to me how we are in a Ten-Tails Revival Arc then?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:44, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
- I'll save you the trouble: Nobody has referred to the Ten-Tails as being dead, but they haven't said it was "alive" either. In fact, the mention that the Ten-Tails lost "most" of its chakra is something you just made up because when the Sage was said to be entering the end of his life, he was said to "divide the Ten-Tails' chakra into the nine Tailed Beasts and then put the body in the moon". It did not say "separated most of the chakra and hid the rest on the moon".--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:48, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
Into it's "true" form and full power, the Statue looked alive enough to me, corpses do not move and make noises. Since Madara was sucking it's chakra to stay alive, obviously some of it stayed. Naruto also pulled Nine-Tails' chakra yet it still had enough to create the super giant TBB, notice, we are talking about the creation itself, it's said to be God of Narutoverse basically, you can't kill it. If it was killable, Sage would have done so, to save everyone troubles--Elveonora (talk) 15:52, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
- And he killed it about as well as he could; Divided the chakra into the Tailed Beasts and the body into the moon where it would eventually be brought back to earth as the Demonic Statue. And here we are right back to the point I was originally making, you cannot pick and decide that the Tailed Beasts keep their articles when they are just parts of the Ten-Tails and say Demonic Statue losses its article for being a part of the Ten-Tails. And because I know where you will go right after this, here is some simple mathematics.
- Ten-Tailed Beast = (Shukaku chakra x Matatabi chakra x Isobu chakra x Son Goku chakra x Saiken chakra x Chomei chakra x Gyuki chakra x Kurama chakra) + Demonic Statue of the Outer Path
- You see that math? If not look over it again. And I was going to comment on corpses don't move but that would have been far to easy.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:59, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
Don't play dumb please, TB's CHAKRA is a part of Ten-Tails not their souls, they themselves are their own entities, separate characters. Chakra isn't a character, yet they are not just chakra but living things, at least two of them are at the moment.--Elveonora (talk) 16:14, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
Why is a silhouette used as the infobox image when we have now actually seen the real Jūbi's appearance?--RexGodwin (talk) 21:41, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
- We've seen either poor representations of the silhouette in the anime, and in the manga, the final form has yet to be seen. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:43, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Why not use either of the forms we've seen in the manga? certainly better than a god-awful sillhouette picture--RexGodwin (talk) 22:24, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
- Because they're not its final form. We'll get it either when it matures all the way, or when we get a flashback to the Sage's time. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:33, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
That's right--Elveonora (talk) 23:34, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
what the...
Affiliation Akatsuki? 0_o wut?!--Elveonora (talk) 19:24, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Think it has something to do with it being part of the Akatsuki war machine in the war. But technically it is wrong.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:48, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
I see Kurama is listed as being affiliated with Konoha too, why is that? Both are prisoners, not comrades--Elveonora (talk) 20:27, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
- The Nine-Tails is a weird one. One through Seven, none of those tailed beasts are aligned with any faction, unless you count them making peace with their jinchuriki during Naruto's talk with them. Bee and the Eight-Tails are literally partners of Kumo so if even on a technicality, The Eight-Tails is affiliated with Kumo. The Nine-Tails up until the Fourth War was just a pissed off fox sealed in a kids gut, but Naruto's "You're my ally from Konoha" comment and then the fox doing absolutely nothing to deny it and even became the pseudo-commander the Allied Shinobi squad fighting Tobi, he is too, on a sharp technicality, affiliated with Konoha.
- In short, Two through Seven, could be affiliated if they "allied" with their jinchuriki during their short time talking but its up in the air. One-Tail is missing from this because lawl.
- Eight-Tails is affiliated with Kumo due to its partnership with Killer Bee.
- Nine-Tails is affiliated with Konoha due to its partnership with Naruto Uzumaki.
- Ten-Tails is listed as affilated with Akatsuki because when Demonic Statue was affiliated with Akatsuki, but is technically a mindless disaster so it is just as likely affiliated with the stick floating in the river than any organization.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:35, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
Exactly :D that's why I remove TT, it has no friends T_T--Elveonora (talk) 21:59, April 23, 2013 (UTC)


text:
Eclipse DemoCamps Kepler 2013/Vancouver
< Eclipse DemoCamps Kepler 2013
Revision as of 23:37, 23 May 2013 by Andrew.eisenberg.as (Talk | contribs) (→Date and Time)
Tasktop Technologies Global HQ
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Date and Time
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Join us for drinks afterwards
If you would like to present at the DemoCamp, please feel free to add your name and topic to the list below. Depending on the number of people interested we may have to limit the number of presenters and time of each demo.
- Nieraj Singh (Pivotal) Getting started improvements to Spring-IDE
- Rafael Chaves (Abstratt) - Cloudfier, a platform for rapid application development/deployment built on Orion.
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If you plan on attending please add your name and affiliation to the list below.
- Andrew Eisenberg, Pivotal
- Nieraj Singh, Pivotal
- Andy Clement, Pivotal
- Kris De Volder, Pivotal
- Rafael Chaves, Abstratt Technologies
We have room for 20 attendees. If you cannot come, please remove your name from the list so that others may attend.


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