text:
Tax day: Tea partiers fill Pavilion
Charlottesville is usually thought of as a liberal town, but that wasn't the crowd on April 15 at the Jefferson Area Tea Party at the Pavilion. The Pavilion had hundreds of sign-carrying, mad-as-heck citizens gathered on the day Uncle Sam demands his taxes. And they turned out to let him know what they thought.
Thomas Paine– a.k.a. WCHV's Joe Thomas– MC'd the event that included WINA's Rob Schilling, former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, Delegate Rob Bell, and Jefferson Area Libertarian John Munchmeyer.
The founding fathers were oft quoted, and the speakers saw many parallels with the Colonists' displeasure with British taxation. Mention the $787 billion stimulus package and the boos were automatic.
113 comments
Didn't say they weren't nice --I just happen to disagree with blaming taxes for the ills of society would rather point the finger at the Bernie Madoff's of the world --taxes when properly administered are for the service of the citizens --it's up to the citizens to elect those who truly do serve for the greater good and not the good of the few. Right now it's the few who have benefited from our current tax structure and the gap between the rich and the poor has grown as a result.
nice people in protest,and you say "Back to the wild west" bla bla bla. what a lousy response,you have know idea what this is all about. why dont you investigate i little before you spout off.
Seemed like a bunch of confused people all mad over something they could never understand, to me.
Call me a cynic....
"The founding fathers were oft quoted" Weren't those the same men who had slaves and maintained that land owning men were the only ones who could vote.
Thank God for the founding mothers, and a country that learned that taxes were a way to improve the lot of us all! I agree with citizen there's nothing wrong with taxes it's just that now the rich and powerful get all the tax breaks and hide their money overseas so they don't have to pay taxes. We need to revamp the tax code so the new founding fathers don't hoard all the wealth.
Thank God that we live in country where free speech and protest are allowed. Agree or not with the purpose of the Tea Party, I think we can all appreciate the fact that we saw some of our greatest rights as Americans demonstrated yesterday at the Pavilion.
Rush Limbaugh's salary? $400 million/year. (Oh, he's doin' it for the little guy, all right.)
Sean Hannity? $200 million. You want some random militaristic paranoia with your McMessage?
Don't worry, you guys, your corporate free marketeers will always be there to save you from... the POST OFFICE! (freakin' socialists!)
And, please, it's criPSy. You should brush up on your reading skills. What, the SOCIALISTS don't teach that anymore? Too bad...
Wow Music Lover...I loved that list of causes to "where our tax dollars go." It reads like a who's who of careless spending, lousy results, no accountability and cost overruns! You forgot National Public Radio! Thanks for reminding me where my tax money goes. What Obama and his cronies really want to do is to tax the hard working folks in that $300k to $1 million range of income...the ones who will be hurt worst by the increases. Gray Matter Kennedy could care less up in Hyannisport; Michael Moore will keep chowing down burgers whilst making sick quantities of cash on his lousy movies.
This all goes back to LBJ. Worst thing that could have happened to this country.
And could you closet lib homophobes stop calling it "teabagging parties?" You all know what that refers to and it is a gay stereotype Gosh, it's like you all take your marching orders from Facial Madcow on My Sorry News Broadcasting Corportation.
I like this idea: if Obama really wants to nail the "rich," have the percentage go up with each $100k earned. So the guy making $300k pays 20 percent, $400k pays 21% and, by the time you get to Springsteen, he's forking over 80 percent of his income! Then we can watch him flee overseas with his money!
The Tea Party protests were no freak show. I cannot imagine someone in Charlottesville intimating that observation while pining for a Free Mumia,
When the Teabaggers take over, we won't have to worry paying for health care, because there won't be any - we will simply get people to pray when someone is sick. We won't have to waste money on public education, because without taxes, there won't be any, and Teabaggers can then home school their kids with creationist theory. Saving for college education will be no big deal, because there won't be any colleges. We won't have to worry about bad mortgages, because there won't be any banks, credit, or currency. Nor will we have to pay for a standing army, postal service, roads, and all those other useless things. Also, we will have to rename our country to "Sudan".
If person "A" makes 1000 bucks and gives the government 400 in taxes... then pays the 600 left over to paerson "B" to paint his house, who pays the government 240 in taxes and pays person "C" the 360 left over to do his taxes, who gives the government 144 in taxes, and gives the balance of 216 to the local restaurant who does not declare it and lets their employees sign up for the FREE health care system because they make too little money... then what we have after four days is the government with 784 dollars of the thousand, and 216 spent possibly on booze and cigarettes and gasoline, all of which are heavily taxed, and idiots still comlaining that taxes are too low.
I made 220k gross last year after struggling 38 years to get there. I paid 55k in federal taxes after deductions. I am 67 years old. Why does anyoe reading this think that over 1000 a week is not enough for one old man who has lived through two heart attacks , a bad back, and hearing loss not enough?
Yeah, like I said, it was real freak show. The Downtown Mall is a great place for freaks. Whether it's the cross dressing goth punks or homeless road dogs or Fox News puppets still completely pissed off they lost the election (don't worry, you still have Sarah Palin and 2012 to look forward to) and reduced to raging about a One World Government, or Atheist Liberal Community Organizers, or Communists in the State Department (I once heard there were at least 57 of them)...the Downtown Mall is the place to be if you want pure, unadulterated freakdom.
Just to get this straight, and for all you folks who think I'm some sort of liberal apologist for Barack Obama, you couldn't be more wrong. I'm extremely disapointed with the man in White House, one of those disapointments being his inability or refusal to level with the American people and tell us just how bad things are. The fact of the matter is all of this deficit spending is going to come to no good end,as it's all predicated on getting our economy back on track. All we need to do is just start selling hideously overpriced McMansions to each other again and everything will be fine. This religion of greed, mindless consumerism while praying at the altar of the Corporation is insidiously destroying ourselves and our planet. Our economy is a joke. A succession of both Democratic and Republican administrations and policies over the past 30 years effectively sold away most of our industrial base, and both political parties have eagerly taken gobs of cash from whatever corporation or rich prick needed a favor, all under the guise of campaign contributions.
What I want to know is where were all of you teabaggers over the past 8 years. Are you all so collectively dense that you've only now come to the realization that the US Government is run by and for the richest 1% of the population? Our country has been writing checks for years that our kids and grandkids are not going to be able to cash. You want to complain about government spending? Fine, I have lots of complaints about government spending. We can start with the Department of Defense. Half a trillion dollars a year blown on war toys while they let injured and recovering soldiers left to rot in their own excrement. All while some politically hooked up pig gets to rake in the cash from a government contract that is supposed to take care of those folks. I didn't see anyone teabagging about that.
Pete Deer
All those things you mentioned are legitimate concerns. I don't see how asking banks why they made loans is relevant. But, since you're asking, check out the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977. Then look at government-sponsored Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, who bundled these high risk loans with low risk to justify an investment.
And even if the banks made some bad loans without being forced, then they should pay for it, not us.
No, Rush Limbaugh's definition of liberality is different from George Washington's, but that doesn't make it so. (That guy's hopped up on something anyway, pretty sure...)
Certainly, the Constitution provides the limitations of government that make our democratic republic function, and it should be respected, debated, amended and constantly refined.
But to suggest that because the President (about whom I am indifferent - admirable guy, really, but he looks like a run-of-the-mill conservative democrat to me) does something that you disagree with, we are now suffering some sort of NEW TYRANNY, well, that's just silly.
And Reagan! Don't get me started. You give me a trillion dollar credit card and tell me I won't ever have to pay it off and I'll show you what a simulated "good life" looks like, too.
Too bad our payment is now overdue. Pray our Chinese overlords are extra patient....
Don't you just love it how conservatives are strict constructionists whenever somebody else tries to interpret what the Founding Fathers intended and attempts to consider their extremely well-documented thoughts in light of the radically different world we live in? You know - the Constitution is a document to be taken literally...except when they don't agree with it? This illustrates that almost perfectly:
"I don't think by ââ?¬Å?liberals" Washington meant those in favor of an expansive government supporting the population from the cradle to the grave. And by ââ?¬Å?equally entitled" I don't think he meant a distribution of wealth. And, to me at least, the ââ?¬Å?protections of civil government" do not include education, transit, healthcare, housing, food, etc. His ââ?¬Å?liberality" held a different meaning than today..."
Yeah, you're right. Just like "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" apparently is supposed to be taken literally, unless by "literally" one means that the first four words of that sentence matter. According to the United States Code, as amended my the Militia Act of 1903, the Militia is unmistakably defined as the National Guard. So I'm not clear and would appreciate some guidance - is this a case where it IS okay to parse words, or not? Perhaps somebody can share the secret conservative primer on which of our founding documents are to be taken seriously and which are to be re-interpreted with a Gingrich tilt.
The chickens hatched by the so-called Reagan Revolution have finally come home to roost, and they're pissed. America isn't stupid (well, more than half of America isn't stupid and that's all that matters).
This movement represents a failure of imagination ---folks have moved on --a new day is dawning --more tolerant, less greedy, more concerned about the world in which we live --a kinder, gentler, more caring world that has captured the hearts and minds of the young at heart and those who can still dream of a better tomorrow
These people realize there are no bodies of water by the Pavilion, no?
Sue, by "a new day is dawning", you must mean a world where greedy people (us) bequeath their children with mountains of debt and inflation.
Unless of course you're in the political class where you can be forgiven for not paying taxes.
Yes fdr your day has come and gone this movement isn't about debt it's about discrimination
fdr try this link," Senior GOP Consultant Backs Gay Marriage"
Well that's great, Sue. Maybe if you could get someone in the current administration to back gay marriage, there might actually be an amendment.
Regardless, Sue and Music Lover's posts have NOTHING to do with the real message behind the tea parties, and they know it. We could point out the crazies in both parties, but we all know they only distract from the real debate.
IF you're interested, find the real reasons behind the protests last Wednesday. Most of them are already listed on this page, but apparently they have been ignored.
Calling us racist will not make us go away. We'll party again in July and our numbers will have grown. We have a voice as well, and you'll hear its unmistakeable message soon enough. A time of economic crisis is not a time for government expansion and a new age of socialism and ineffective populist programs. These plans are expensive and our future generations will be paying the debt. This is unacceptable to Americans of any color who care to see what's happening to their country. Some of you will keep chugging the kool-aid and making non-points, arguing with yourselves. Go ahead, we don't need you.
Dopher it is your party that is the direct result that we're in this financial mess to begin with.
I did listen to the speeches at the recent event, because I was there. You're citing a guy on a message board for your facts. Tell me what speech at what tea party had a racist comment? You won't, because you can't.
Not like it matters anyway, it's all smoke and mirrors to distract you from the reasons behind the protest, and I guess it's working.
And, Sue, tell me, please, which is "my party?" No matter to which you decide I belong, you're wrong. The blame for the current economic crisis is not laid upon members of one party only, and if you looked further than message boards for your information you would know this already.
I give up trying to reach people like you. Those in support of the tea parties on this message board are just repeating themselves. It's what happens when you're debating others that aren't really paying attention to what you're saying.
One thing we can all agree on is this is a national disaster and we will need to work together to get out of it. You're right fdr smarter spending is certainly needed both on the national and local level.
Musiclover- your notes ring of deafening flatness in your 4/19 10:35 comment. You have not supported your last paragraph. Keep chanting your monotone racism mantra. This is a movement that is bigger than the political thinking on either side. This will require you to think. Unless you are out of control with your finances, you too are more conservative than you let on. Why would you want local, state, or federal govts to live beyond their means? Their means are our means in the end.
fdr, you are out of your mind if you think the tea parties was not created and driven by fox. they were the clear champion of that event, and once they realized the events were going to bomb, fox attempted to backpedal. it finally hit them that they were organizing protests of the bush tax code and calling attention to the deficit, of which bush added 3-4 trillion while in office.
they were so quick to jump on it they never did their homework. same for boehner and cantor. embarrassing.
Sue does 4 billion to a group of democractic activest sound like stimmulous?
Russ, (I'll ignore your weak attempt at a put down - a real knee-slapper!) - I don't know what to tell you. I changed 12 bulbs in my house to CF two years ago and my electric bill immediately dropped 60%. (and my house got brighter)
fdr - I think I'm with you on the spending, we just have different priorities. I'll take "lazy Americans on handouts" (overwhelmingly retired, disabled or simply screwed by "free market" exploitation) over wasted military folly any day. Then again, it's expensive to have a democratic system, and if we could close a few corporate loop holes, we'd likely have enough money for anything you can imagine.
You guys should maybe lay off the Limbaugh.
Your statement about lightbulbs is utter nonsense. You don't drop 60% of electric usage by changing 12 lightbulbs unless you don't use a fridge, nor a water heater, nor a cloths dryer. Light bulbs are small fry in a home's electric use. CFLs are fine, we use them but they lightbulbs are that large of component of a home's electic use.
Also, I don't listen to Limbaugh. Maybe you should lay off your unfounded statements.
Crispy- ran a little quick math on your savings. Assuming you were burning the 12 bulbs (100W) 8 hrs per day and replaced with CF equiv (26W). Your 60% savings for home elec would mean you were running something else that was the equivalent of 93W 24 hrs a day. Maybe a very small dorm refrig to cool a little beer? Sounds unlikely for most houses.
Sorry to throw you of balance with my weak joke......as a resut you missed my point. The point is that there is little or no accountability in the govt. Central planners will be as responsive to your healthcare needs as with CF mandates. Govt mandated healthcare will make it impossible to even fight it out with your insurance company. Ultimately dictated by govt policy and the govt purse strings.
Smaller govt
Alright, you got me. 60% is a big number. The actual numbers were a bill of $65 went down below $40. Still a substantial decrease.
And I really don't share your enthusiasm for the beneficence of a free market. Markets are beholden to the bottom line, PERIOD. Customer be damned. Fact is, it's cheaper to deny coverage than provide it, so many claims are denied. For profit.
At least we can elect different officials. And if the money were removed from politics, our voices might be heard over big-pharma or big-wafare or whoever happens to have the biggest bottom line this month.
You missed Russ's point - again.
He was talking about your house and your fantastical claim to have cut electric use by 60% by changing 12 light bulbs.
Alright, you got me. 60% is a big number. The actual numbers were a bill of $65 went down below $40. Still a substantial decrease.
And I really don't share your enthusiasm for the beneficence of a free market. Markets are beholden to the bottom line, PERIOD. Customer be darned. Fact is, it's cheaper to deny coverage than provide it, so many claims are denied. For profit.
At least we can elect different officials. And if the money were removed from politics, our voices might be heard over big-pharma or big-wafare or whoever happens to have the biggest bottom line this month.
Looks like you may be proven wrong Russ
" Since 2002, Christian has directed an effort to create "zero-energy" houses, a goal that is close to fruition. Recently, Christian completed five "zero energy" houses in partnership with Habitat for Humanity which were built for about $100,000 each and cost little to power.
and, I'm not Sue
I find it very interesting that during the last 8 years, we allowed a president to basically crap on the constitution- start not one but two war to get the "terrorists" and torture people- completely crapping on the Geneva convention. we also allow him to deregulate most of the governing laws in the financial industry- which by the way caused this mess. And maybe during the past 8 years more millionaires were created because they were stealing other people's money "investing it" into overseas bank accounts.
And for the "tea Baggers" making over 250,000 should be very upset that they have to pay more taxes,except that they will just find more ways to not pay taxes but the other 90% are really just lemmings. Truly, they don't care about truth they just regurgitate what the dumb rethug right tell them to.
the main regulating legislation that was repealed was Glass-Seagal and that was done under the Clinton administration. You should read more than just talking points from moveon.
Egore - don't forget to add in sales taxes, meals taxes, federal gasoline tax, all your phone and internet taxes and fees, personal property tax, real estate tax (buried in your rent if renting), import duties buried in cost of goods, pending cap & trade tax ........ Your taxes are well over 40% of your gross income
and repeal of Glass-Steagal was supported and signed by Bill Clinton - the mess is bipartisan, just look at who Fannie Mae and AIG gave their political contributions to.
does "bipartisan" mean they ALL suck?
Back to the wild west-- who needs schools, roads, police or fire protection and forget those people who happen to be old, disabled or mentally ill --survival of the fittest is the mantra for these folks I guess
It looked like a total freak show to me...
Pete Deer
I think it is great to keep those who decide how and where to spend my/our tax dollars in check...and I don't mean a blank check. History has shown us most departments of the US government are run inefficiently, with waste, cost over runs and mismanagement. Here are some examples -- USPS, DOE, military, DSS, HUD, DOT, FDA, EPA. Ok now you tax huggers can prove me wrong but since I am paying tax I sure as heck don't want my money wasted on crap like bridges-to-nowhere or other pork!
No complaints from the right wing about spending millions per day in Iraq during the bush administration, but now that we have a new president they're suddenly fiscally conservative again.
I hope some of these fine folks were able to make it over in time for the concert at JPJ (which I hope the hook covered). They missed an awesome show if they didnt'/
I still like Huckabee's idea of eliminating federal taxes & charging 25% sales tax on every purchase. This would make sure that people who get paid under the table, drug dealers, pimps prostitutes, business owners who skim off the top, illeagles, etc. all have to buy stuff & this would make them pay their fair share. The working person not having to pay federal taxes would have more to spend.
There were plenty of complaints about the spending of millions everyday. We are complaining of the Trillion that is being spent for disguised welfare and entitlement programs. Why do you think VA. rejected part of the stimulus? Well....it meant that to accept the money we would have to continue the program when the gment money was used up. Don't even get me started on ACORN.
Freaks huh? You want to see freaks visit the downtown mall on a Friday there's more leather and studs than a Ramones concert, I wont even take my family to the Downtown Mall on a weekday because it overflows with worst of society.
As for the comment about schools, roads and police funding; get a clue those services and infrastructure are paid for by your local taxes, not federal (up until the worthless bailout money)! Oh and spending money in Iraq, guess where that money goes, its pay for our soldiers, buys weapons systems produced by company's in the U.S.(hopefully U.S.), buy's uniforms, boots, food for our troops, etc.. In other words that money goes back into our economy. The only nasty and violent protests that occurred yesterday where committed by LIBERALS trying to stop concerned Middle Americans from exercising their first amendment rights.
One question: Where in the Hell were these tea parties seven years ago?
The point is not the tax rate it is the outrageous spending that Obama is using to try to get the american consumer to go on another spending binge. It is the social infrastructure he is creating that we all (rich and poor) will have to pay for for the next 100 years.
His math does not and cannot work. He is just barreling ahead while he has the chance. Just like Bush did with the war.. except Obamas ink pen is the REAL weapon of mass destruction.
All of the riches wealth cannot cover his social agenda for more than a couple of years... then what? Who are you gonna tax when the rich have been depleted?
This new admin lowered taxes for most of us. WTF? Are we suppose to feel sorry for poor poor rich folk who are going to have to pay taxes at levels they were paying back in the Clinton era?
Anybody that says the rich don't pay any taxes is a LIAR. The alternative mimimum tax takes care of that. Even if their tax rate through loopholes is lower they still pay tens of thousands in taxes per person... How much did you actually PAY????
There were more millionairs created under Bush then in the entire 200 preceding years.
There were more people moved from lower middle class to upper middle class then in any time in the preceding 200 years.
The number of people living in poverty actually diminished if you consider that the "poor" of today would have been solid middle class in 1970.
In 1970 the real "poor" in c-ville had no cell phones, DVD players, brand name clothes, cars, ER care, food stamps, rent assistance, A/C in their apartments, dishwashers, microwaves etc.
Now they say your in poverty if you cannot afford to feed a family of four working full time at mcdonalds.
Some of you crybabies who think you have it so tough need to go to a nursing home and ask some of those "rich" people about how "easy" their life was in 1940.
Some of you think Obama is Robin Hood, but you forget that Robin Hood did not take from the rich and give to the poor, he took from the Government and gave it back to the people...
....kinda like what George Bush tried to do....
Like I say, a bunch of very confused Americans. I heard like 30 different irreconcilable messages at the tea party, most of them boiling down to: "Glenn Beck = good, black people and taxes = bad, ergo: screw the President."
please enjoy:
Where were these tea baggers a couple of years ago when their hero W and a GOP Congress passed the Medicare prescription plan by claiming a cost of less than $400 billion over 10 years? One month after passage the White House said "oops" and the estimate went to $534 billion. About a year later it went up to $1.2 trillion over ten years. Of course, that was enacted by a Republican government - and none of these people hit the streets to protest anything until Obama became president.
They didn't protest the way Bush prosecuted two wars completely off-budget. I've seen many protesters mentioning that it's wrong to increase spending and cut off funds to the troops. The Obama defense budget is HIGHER than Bush's, and since he's killing worthless weapons programs it frees up money for THE TROOPS. It also will allow us to recruit more troops to reduce the deployment rotation frequency.
But the truly amazing thing is the defense lobby is so incredibly good at what they do that our annual defense expenditures are twice the COMBINED defense budgets of Russia and China!
Where were these protesters as the Bush administration consistently stripped Veterans' benefits? At home watching reality TV, perhaps?
But of course, Fox News and Limbaugh don't tell it that way, and that's all that matters to these lemmings. They will buy anything those people tell them to buy, believe anything they tell them to believe, and repeat any nonsense they hear them say, even when it defies all logic and common sense. And now they're letting themselves be led by disgraced and discredited former leaders such as Gingric, Armey, and Delay! Talk about grasping at straws!
I find it interesting that media people were running this in Charlottesville as well as just about everywhere else - these so-called tea parties weren't grass root efforts. They were AstroTurf efforts, driven by the conservative/wing nut media.
I'm looking forward to the post-tea party polling. I doubt there will be any change in Omaba's approval ratings. The unhappy conservatives spent a day whining to themselves, but it actually seems like they've lost the ability to change anybody's mind. I guess that's what happens when people become more aware and when you can no longer control the message.
The funny thing is, protests against Bush were considered un-patriotic. Now they're the American thing to do - but only if you're a "real" American.
As for the incredible tax burden, it's a myth. It's a lie. The overall tax burden AND the tax burden on individuals and families is historically extremely low. I know that the introduction of "facts" isn't as fun as getting together and making noise, but here you go: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=139
As a postscript, Federal tax dollars do, indeed, get sent back to states to help fund things like infrastructure, education, law enforcement, conservation, and any number of other resources and services. You can't even begin to count the number of entities in Charlottesville that were started with Federal loans, grants, and funding, nor can you count the number of local entities that rely on continued funding today. This isn't a new "stimulus" thing at all (and let's not forget that most of these heroic GOP governors took nearly all of the stimulus money offered). Federal tax dollars are granted to state and local governments for many purposes - just search The Google for "local programs receiving federal funds."
Here are just a few:
Disaster relief and recovery
Public health (states receive $17.60 per person on average from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to spend on public health)
Medical research
Energy research
Just about all public schools receive Federal funds. The same is true for just about every college and university.
National parks
Unemployment benefits
Natural resource management
Roads, bridges, tunnels, etc. Ever hear of the Interstate Highway System?
The conservative rhetoric just doesn't stand the test of time, and in today's world where fact checking is as easy as logging onto the Internet it's too easy for curious people to get to the truth.
ACORN entitlements tax the rich trillions billions bailouts alternative minimum tax john galt teabag liberals big brother founding fathers liberty big government socialism welfare obama wasn't even born in the u.s.
there, all you teabaggers, I think that covers everything you wanted to say. all keywords, no substance.
Here's the way I see it, Egore. In order to start a business, you usually have to first spend a chunk of change, often going in to debt. That's basically how I see the stimulus program. We have a broken economy and we can't go on pretending it'll fix itself. The U.S. needs to start a new "business." I disagree with the TARP spending and toxic asset buying, but I'll gladly pay for healthcare, greener infrastructure, education, technology, and fighting poverty (even if they have to raise my taxes to do these things) . It makes more sense then invading and policing a foreign country.
for a group of people that claim to love this country so much, they sure get all bent out of shape at the suggestion we all pitch in and work together to fix it. good job, patriots.
sue, please knock it off. slavery is alive and well in the world today. made in china? most everything made there is slave made,and other parts of the world also. lets not pick on the dead in the grave. lets help the people of the world fight there masters that have enslaved them. i am a recovered liberal and geting the facts are a great way of life.
I enjoy reading perjorative comments like 'Crispy Duck's; "Seemed like a bunch of confused people all mad over something they could never understand, to me." Please enlighten us, oh worldly one, what about the Constitution don't we understand? Or, are you one of the elitists who feel like we need to be 'looked after' because the world is too complex for us? I sure do hope for your sake that you are one of the 'chosen ones.' But if you wind up on the outside of the inner circle, feel free to come and join us because in the words of Thomas Paine; "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Crispy, give it rest. your quackery sounds a bit lame. I'm not sure what race has to do with this. I can bet you ALOT of blacks, asians & pigmies are also fed up with this run away spending.
To all you liberals most of which probably are working in a bureaucracy like the US or local government or at UVA; did you notice that Obama made 2.7 million last year and paid 800K+ in taxes which worked out to under 30% of his income. I imagine it is less of a burden to pay more taxes when you make 2.7 million. I am sure he won't even miss it. Oh, he made over 4 million in 2007. Have you not noticed that the liberal leadership are usually filthy rich like Kennedy or are movie moguls like Michael Moore. With their money why not be a champion of the downtrodden which is a popular position since it is human nature to want someone to give you something rather than to work for it. It keeps those folks downtrodden and loyal to their benefactors. For those of you that work for a better standard of living by using your brain and hard work to get ahead, Obama is going to make that possibilty less likely. You will be working more days every year to pay for his programs that benefit those that would rather be cared for by the government. I call his programs of bigger government and greater government intervention and more taxes OBAMACARE. If you liberals really want socialism in this country you should spend some time to see how it is working in Russia or even Cuba.
First can we all lose the insults, and respect each other's right to an opinion? Those who fling the name calling when they even suspect someone mught not agree with their political view are arrogant, so threatened by another's viewpoint that they need to immediately marginalize anyone who disagrees. This tactic is tired and transparent.
Secondly: I don't know anyone who wouldn't wish for all citizens to enjoy quality healthcare, plentiful income, a safe car, college tuition, etc.
The point is: who is going to pay for it? And who is distributing the money collected?
It's not abut the taxes ( yet), its about doubling down on the national debt, in less than 90 days.
Elux Troxl - EXCELLENT point, and unfortunately closer to the truth than most of us would like.
egore - great points! Only problem is your math is totally irrational and your suppositions entirely devoid of fact or reality. First, the highest tax bracket in the US is 35%, and that's for those who make over $357,700. Since every point you make is predicated on a 40% tax, not to mention the incredibly asinine assertion that everybody who works in restaurants works for tax cheats, freeloads on the public health care system and spends their money on alcohol, cigarettes and gasoline (on a side note, I'll bet you're one awesome tipper!), I doubt anybody takes anything you wrote seriously. If that's the best way you know of to make a point I hope you aren't surprised that nobody listens.
Why is everyone so angry at people who are only voicing their opinion? If you don't agree, fine. But slinging insults,spewing hate, and promoting steroypes is completely hypocritical of everyone crticizing the tea party participants and anyone else. The demonstration was non-violent and that is what EVERYONE should be proud of...and every demonstration liberal or conservative that is non-violent. Threatening people and being nasty because you don't agree is juvenile. Just say you disagree and give your reason's why.
The fact remains some people lose their homes and businesses...many who are elderly and worked their whole life...because of the heavy tax burden. I've seen this happen with three differnt members of my own family. This is a crime when people work hard their whole lives or even part of their life just to have it all taken away. I think everyone should try to have a little more compassion and empathy for what some of your fellow citizens are going through. This is why people are upset about taxes. 250,000 is not that much money...although I know if you're poor like I am it seemd like a lot.
AND FYI TO ALL LIBERALS....most conservatives are not big fans of George W Bush. He's NOT a conservative. That's why he's completely disappeared from the public eye and the GOP.
And ALL of you should do a better job of informing yourself about issues. If you're only getting your news from ONE source; you're not informed.
News from one source--looked like a Fox News event.
And as for jobs one sign said no more hand-outs get a job. Wouldn't say that shows much compassion for the recently laid-off
I'm torn. Judging from the Tea Party, I now can't wait for the "American Revolution" -- as long as FOX News plays the part of Paul Revere. What I have in mind is a segment called Three if by Air and the ride would be slow, O.J. style, with federal marshals in helicopters hovering above Beck's SUV.
But I also wanted to say that I think that I distrust the military (I've been thinking hard about this one; it's not like I don't support the troops) and I suspect they would go Rush if it came down to it. I have this sneaking suspicion that many of them lean conservative.
Would a Rush administration mount a ground invasion of Britain (i.e. to unseat the King)? It really comes down to what sort of advisers he has and what he's on. You can definitely see the conservatives' side of it -- unseating the British monarchy is something left unfinished, much as Saddam was allowed to remain in power for 13+ years.
I can not understand people supporting increased federal spending by a government that loses money running a cafeteria. Yet you want them to run your schools, health care and provide for your retirement. I suggest that you might want to rely on yourselves for a change.
re:"It reads like a who's who of careless spending, lousy results, no accountability and cost overruns!"
Sounds like the Pentagon!!
Crispy, I think i was right the first time. Crispy is what a cooked duck becomes.
I tuned my reading skills viewing your bland site. Do you awake each day and kiss the mirror?
sara good point "LIBERALS"Š.most conservatives are not big fans of George W Bush. He's NOT a conservative. That's why he's completely disappeared from the public eye and the GOP" well for me. its been a very long time, that i have voted for, rather than against, the other person running. i can no longer trust the GOP to represent my conservative values. lets not forget John Mccaine was another liberal plant. we conservatives need to step away from the phony gop,or take it back?
BRG, would you rather have Bernie Madoff and his pals in charge ?
The point of the protest not only high taxes - we'll protest that next year. It's the great expansion of government. Sure, you could call some of the protesters "freaks," or use the word "teabaggers," but you're just following distractions, which are taking attention away from the message.
Let's see if you can name ONE domestic government program that works. By that I mean gets the job done efficiently and doesn't bleed money left and right.
The goverment SUCKS at running businesses - they make the rules, and they have no need to make a profit. All they have to worry about is getting re-elected, so they just try to gain the favor of the majority of their constituency while screwing over the rest. This leads to taxing the productive to support the unproductive. The private sector, on the other hand, must work efficiently to survive
quote: "Back to the wild westââ?¬â?? who needs schools, roads, police or fire protection and forget those people who happen to be old, disabled or mentally ill ââ?¬â??survival of the fittest is the mantra for these folks I guess"
That's not a really bad idea, IMHO. I'll make this short and sweet.... The public schools are a joke, and a danger to a child's mental and physical being. If my house burns down, it's insured and I will rebuild. If I am involved in a car crash I don't need fire trucks sitting there watching the rescue squad do their thing. Think about this next one carefully --> What have the police really done for you lately? Families currently take care of their old and disabled because it's hard to justify their elderly family members losing everything they own in order to pay $7,000 a month for a nursing home (yes, you have to lose everything before Medicade kicks in). The average tax paying citizen receives almost nothing from the schools, the fire department, the police and the government.
See how sorry the public schools are?
I typed MEDICADE instead of MEDICAID. :)
Everyone who is up in arms about the growing government, the looming spending spree, the past incompetent administrations, the ailing economy, the growing gap between rich and poor (of which the poor are not concerned), and how America is really going to pay to fix all of our problems: please ask those unregulated lenders who supposedly started all this, WHY they felt compelled to lend money to folks that shouldn't be borrowing money.
I don't think you're going to drum up much support by asking what the police have done for us lately. They put their lives on the line to keep us safe, and have to deal with extreme criticism when they actually use their weapons.
And the fire trucks don't just sit there. The fire department has EMTs who most often arrive on scene before the rescue squad to begin care, and the firemen are active directing traffic and assisting the EMTs. City fire did try to waste millions on an ambulance service by presenting false information on the local volunteer rescue squad's response times, so there is the potentinal for goverment waste. But both organizations are full of heroes who don't need criticism like that.
But you have a good point - we shouldn't be afraid of the goverment relinquishing control over these programs.
Buffalo Gal,
you asked if we wanted Bernie Madorf in charge? We sort of do since he was a big contributor to the Dems. Look at who AIG, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac execs supported... Dodd, Obama, Barney Franks etc.
Hey Fist! Thanks for the traffic. Stop by any time. But I'm having a hard time understanding you. Maybe if you get Glenn Beck's nethers out of your mouth...
Look people, nobody loves taxes, but taxes are the cost of an open society. Maybe if corporations were made to pay their fair share, and our tax money was going to something other than military imperialism and propping up corporate lobbyists and their cronies in congress, we'd be able to afford better schools, reasonable health care, community development, the list goes on and on. And our taxes would never go up!
The way you guys run from Bush is amazing after eight years of "don't criticize the president during a time of war." You righties were all for it until you realized what some of us knew early on: WAR IS EXPENSIVE and ultimately, a massive waste. (And, in the case of Iraq, incredibly dangerous and really stupid.)
The only things the "conservative movement" ever stood for were "greed is good," and "guns fix everything." Throw in "Jesus Uber Alles" and you've got a formula for a new dawn of the Middle Ages.
In the words of George Washington (remember him?):
ââ?¬Å?As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
Regardless of what you think of our involvement in Iraq, it's cheaper than Obama and congress's current plans. I did not hear a single speaker mention the war in Iraq Wednesday anyway, so it's doubly irrelevant.
The rallies were not pro-Bush either, and if anything criticized his spending as well. And who said "don't criticize the president during a time of war?" I didn't. Who said "greed is good," and "guns fix everything?" Not me. I didn't hear anyone say those things Wednesday either. Debating the straw man you've built gets us nowhere.
And your quote only serves our purpose. I don't think by "liberals" Washington meant those in favor of an expansive government supporting the population from the cradle to the grave. And by "equally entitled" I don't think he meant a distribution of wealth. And, to me at least, the "protections of civil government" do not include education, transit, healthcare, housing, food, etc. His "liberality" held a different meaning than today, or else he would have never said this:
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
Uh huh. Except for your investment in Iraq you get nothing but more enemies. At least investing in the US might provide some positive return. (if we're lucky)
And you're wrong. Liberality is the notion that well-informed people are capable of self-governance. A strong middle class makes for strong democracy. Protection from the wiles of a ruling elite is every bit as important as protection from potential enemies abroad. Every person, American or otherwise is imbued with rights based on his or her very existence. You know, wacky stuff like that.
"My" investment in Iraq? You're doing it again. I didn't indicate that I was for or against our involvement. And, don't tell me I'm wrong about liberality, because I didn't define it. I said it's definition is different than today, and by that I mean the coloquially accept definition of a "liberal" is not what it was two hundred years ago. By assigning me to points of view you want to attack you're only arguing with yourself.
I, for one, don't want to roll the dice and hope we're "lucky." And if you think that all this spending is going to strengthen the middle class then you need a history lesson. The New Deal only lengthened the Great Depression. Reagen cut taxes and excessive government and we flourished. And I agree, we need protection from the ruling elite. Those being the ones in power who believe we can't self-govern, who believe we need to have our decisions regarding healthcare, childcare, education and the like made for us.
A strong middle class is great, sure, but what happens when 51% of that middle class is wrong? In a democracy, that mob ruling has the capability of screwing over the other 49%. That's why we are a republic, not a democracy, because the majority is often not well informed.
Certain rights and rules must be established that cannot be changed by the upper, middle, or lower classes. Conveniently, those rights and rules are laid out in our Constitution. Do you agree Cripsy? Should we follow our Constitution?
The Tea Party wasn't only about taxes - it was also about irrisponsible spending. At some point the money spent on TARP and the other stimulus funding will need to be repaid and that can't be done on todays tax rates. We've already seen billions that will not be repaid by the takers i.e. GM so that recovery will go to us the tax payers. My deepest darkest fear with the stimulus, which I support, is this: what if they're wrong? What if it doesn't work? Who will back our certificates if we've gone all in on this and go bust...
"The Tea Party wasn't only about taxes - it was also about irresponsible spending."
And according to the speeches and signs, it was also about: abortion; supporting the troops; Obama "sucking" the Saudi "jewels"; Obama's white slavery policies; the American taxpayers being the Jews for Obama's ovens; our tax dollars being given to Hamas to kill Christians, Jews and Americans; Obama being the new face of Hitler; guns; gay marriage; Barack "Osama"; America is a Christian Nation; succession; and immigration.
Also according to some of the speeches and signs, it was about some people having a VERY hard time coming to grips with the idea that the President of the United States of America is an African-American.
"We'll party again in July and our numbers will have grown."
Yep, and Faux News will report something like this: "Over 100,000 disaffected Americans gathered on the National Mall in Washington to protest Obama's tax policies. To celebrate their coming together, there was a huge fireworks show at the end of the evening."
Sue, I'm in favor of gay marriage, I don't know why you bothered with that link.
The idea of tea parties is not partisan, its economic.
fdr if that were true you'd have a lot more support. Did you listen to the speeches at the recent event ( see Music Lover's comments)
I have noticed that the only people that keep bringing race into the question of motive of the teaparties are those that seem to opose this right of assembly. Isn't that constant drone of racism in itself racism.....the constant focus on race??
Sue, this is about taxes and spending not about what keep saying, gay marriage. Polls show support for gay marriage is not a majority view or even close to it. I favor it and expect it will happen. However, the tea parties aren't about that. It's the growing deficit. I opposed the over spending of the last couple years and it would be insane to complain about that and not complain about how much worse it is getting now.
Dopher I apologize for assuming you belonged to a particular party. I try to stay informed not from message boards but reading 3 newspapers a day listening to AM and FM radio reading the Hook and attending City Council as often as possible. I also agree that the deficit is a problem but we are facing a national crisis of historic proportions and to not change course for the short and long term would be criminal in my view. In the short term I agree with stimulating the economy and paring out all waste particularly in defense spending, re-regulating the financial markets to prevent a Madoff repeat, pulling the troops out of Iraq,and re-structuring the tax-code so as not to favor the rich. In the long term investing in industries that will further the health of the planet and thereby the quality of life of all human and non human beings inhabiting it. In doing this I believe after this short term crisis we will see a lowering of the debt due to a national consciousness shift away from money spending solutions to problems. I see us moving toward maintaining what we have and looking for sustainable solutions in all fields education, health, jobs, and a world that needs fewer guns and weapons to settle our problems.
I don't believe that saying no to taxes is appropriate for our current crisis.
I'm not saying "no to taxes nor have I seen anyone else in this discussion. We're saying less spending so we and our children can afford the taxes needed to pay for the spending.
As to make the tax not favor the rich, the rich already pay most of the taxes collected. There are cases where the rich get off from their fair share such as Sec of Treasure Geithner, but overall, the rich pay a huge share of the government's income now.
For those who are still in the dark about this. No one there was praising the democrat controlled congress spending during Bush administration. This is about excessive spending that os unjustified by the constitution and by the simple principle of fiscal responsibility that we as citizens need to abide by in our own lives. It is also about taxes to a lesser extent....mainly because the federal govt has now accelerated its indebtedness at an alarming rate, financed by our soon to be "allied" socialist friends.
Just a couple questions to all those that support all this expansive federal govt.
1) Are you buying up federal govt debt as an investment to support this?
2) Did you add say a $100 to your taxes as a contribution?
Put your money where your mouth is.
I hope all those posting on this article are paying attention to local issues. If the message is less spending, on a local level our water authority is pushing a plan that may cost over $200 million and critics have come forward with new information that questions the costs of this plan. The City is demanding dredging surveys to evaluate this as an alternative that would be possibly both less costly and more sustainable and less environmentally damaging.
Please if you care about saving money for our community get involved in saving water rate payers a huge financial burden and contact your local officials to do the dredging surveys now.
Dopher, I do agree that no one party is completely responsible for the financial disaster we're facing. I am just frustrated by all the deregulation under the last administration.
Bad regulation is bipartisan. Glass-Seagal was revoked by the Clinton administration with a Repub congress. Barney Frank and Dodd protected Fannie Mae under the Bush administration.
Look at who the financial industry sends its money to - its bipartisan.
Lower spending and smarter spending will benefit everyone.
Also for those concerned with debt again a local issue. The RWSA debt is presently $45 million and if the present plan proceeds will exceed $200 million. Shouldn't all of us that care about excessive spending and lack of accountability question this ?
Mr. Crutchfield does :
Thanks for the info, Betty.
Still waiting on that evidence of racism at a tea party Sue, and if you could also provide evidence that one party and no other is responsible for the current crisis? Since you're so well informed this should be easy.
- Even though neither of those two things are relevant to this discussion. As we've said over and over, the tea parties were non partisan, and of course, not racist.
Not just smarter spending, everyone says their spending is smart. It also has to be less spending.
See the Washington Post sunday for an article on pork barrel spending by John Murtha.
At the least, we shouldn't dump the cost on our children.
See http://www.businessinsider.com/the-moral-case-for-rampant-inflation-2009-4 for an argument why inflation would be a moral choice compared to borrowing as we are doing today. Supports of trillion dollar deficits are wanting to eat their cake today and make other people pay for it.
The Tea Party was not about paying taxes. It was about paying unfair taxes. I believe there should be two tiers of tax payers. Those that are poor, should pay less than those that are not. The two rates, should be flat and no deductions what so ever.
For those of you who believe are taxes should go to a national health care system. You have not given this you full attention. Consider this. In countries which have a national health care system. It is the doctors that choose who gets care and who does not. It is the doctors that decide who lives and who dies. In a national health care system, the system rates individuals by their potential contribution to society. Where the young have more potential and the elderly have less. So, as you get older and therefore are more likely to develop cancer, or need a organ transplant or need a major operation. You will not be able to receive medical treatment, because you are not worth it to society. You are also not allowed to pay for treatment, even if you can afford it. Your only recourse is to seek treatment in another country that does not have a national health care system.
Why are my comments always awaiting moderation all of a sudden? I have yet to cuss on here, but I'm thinking about it.
Sure"Š I thought the Tea Party was about whatever Fox News told you it was about. What was that again? Oh yeah, Obama bin WHATEVER. (secret muslim, no birth certificate - no, not racist at all)
You guys who are serious about tax reform and dissolving the Fed may have a point, but by aligning yourselves with the Fox Koolaid News wackos (the no information crowd) you do yourselves a serious disservice. Nobody's taking advice from the right wing wackos that led the country into this mess.
As has been said here repeatedly, where were you guys when Bush was double deploying the military and cutting taxes on the richest 1%? All of it off budget? Heck, if we weren't spending half our money on the military to begin with (as much as the next ten largest militaries on earth COMBINED), we could afford darn near anything we could imagine. Our military didn't protect us on 9/11. And Iraq has proven a bunch of punks with cans of nails and over-the-counter explosives can hold us off for years.
I'm not sure Obama's got this right, either, but after Bush, as long as he doesn't dump the entire treasury into the desert, it will feel like a blessing.
Steve, in our current health care system, insurance companies get to decide who gets treated. And they waste a ton of money and deny incredible amounts of coverage while doing it. I'd rather let doctors decide without having to refer to some private company's shareholders for permission.
The percentage of taxes from the top 1% went up during the Bush years.
You should ask why didn't the FBI and other agencies identify the terrorists before they struct. The military isn't tasked with that job.
We don't spend half the budget on the military, not even close. Social programs are by far the largest spending category.
The people who led us into this mess are with both parties. Can you defend Chris Dodd (D) who is in bed with the mortgage industry or Barney Frank (D) defender of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? How about the Clinton repeal of Glass-Seagal which could have prevented much of this? Plenty of blame to go around.
Finally, the tea parties aren't organized or in any way associated with the Fox network.
You're kidding, right?
John Ashcroft famously said he didn't want to hear about Afghanistan-based terrorists anymore and then went to work busting TOMMY CHONG! George Bush said "your ass is covered" to the messenger who brought a warning to his Crawford ranch.
Just search "U.S. Military Budget," and you'll find a ton of data showing that the US military budget is massive, larger than any on earth, and a significant chunk (more than half by some estimates) of your tax dollar. Famously, Democrats spend more on military than Republicans do!
I'm with you, it's a bipartisan problem, but it's a HUGE problem, no less.
According to the IRS 1040EZ form, pg 38 - national defense ,plus veteran affairs, plus foreign affairs budgets combined are 23% of the budget. Soc Sec, Medicare and other retirement are 38%. Social programs are another 19%.
Enrique, no - fox did not start it nor sponsor it.
Back to tea parties, the point is to reduce spending and not ruin the economy for our kids.
The 1040EZ stats include trust funds like Social Security in the budget. That's inaccurate. (and, frankly, dishonest) It also doesn't distinguish past military debt from non-military expenses.
Then, of course there's the fact that the Iraq/Afghanistan numbers were never included in the budgets.
It's a mess for sure.
It still doesn't change the fact that we're spending multiple times more than any other country for no good reason save unfounded reactionary paranoia.
Over cooked duck- by your argument, if you want your care to be closer to your doctor's decision you should pay your doctor directly. It's ultimately the person holding the purse strings who call the final shot on your care.
Personally I can't afford to self insure. I'd much rather fight it out with my insurance company than with my non-representative in US congress. He can't even answer my questions why my soon to be mandated compact florescent lights don't last as long as advertised, who is supposed to replace all my dimmers on lights that have not been changed over, and why one CF caught on fire and burned the fixture up on the side of my house. Oh that's right... Not his responsibility....... That was voted in before he was elected. You big govt folks have no idea what you are doing.
Duck, the 1040EZ figure is accurate since that money is being spent now and borrowed from future tax payers. Also Iraq/Afgan are included in the spending.
Again, you keep avoiding the issue - we need to spend far less money.
Government waste right here in Charlottesville --hope you are all following the Rivanna Solid Waste Authority trash issue that the Hook posted today and the tax payer money being spent to go after a private business owner who is attempting to improve re-cycling in our community. Is anyone who was at the tea party upset about this ?
Dopher here is an excellent article about the local debt situation we're facing at the RWSA. It's unfortunate that the folks in Fluvanna failed to bring the issue of forming a water authority there to a vote. People need to be very careful who they elect locally and if these people are genuinely concerned about wasteful spending. My hope is that all the people at the tea party will get more involved in local affairs. Rob Schilling, for one, has done a tremendous service trying to inform people of the financial cost this water plan will have for the citizens of the City. I just hope more people in the county will speak up before it's too late
Rob Schilling's comments are in this article about his concern for the rate-payer.
Um. It's Glass Steagall, and only part of it was reformed under the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (all three Republicans) in 1999. The repealed portions allowed financial institutions to merge with investment firms. So they could all fail together! Good times.
MUSIC LOVER.... MY 40% TAX BRACKET IS CORRECT. Unless you think state taxes are not "taxes".


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Friday, September 27, 2013
Choose Wisely
What is occurring is of course consolidation or monopolization of health care providers, from hospitals to practices and the problems with lack of available primary care providers in rural areas that may not be able to serve all the clients effectively. And we have the real situation as described below - fewer choices overall.
I have long warned that with this many who are entering the health care market will be in the lower economic range and the kinds of insurance we the "poors" will be able to afford, even with subsidies, means walk in clinics and public hospital facilities that are already overflowing with the poors, trauma and other issues that are used to supplement the community - from temporary jails to mental health facilities. I shudder to think about the dumping ground that is Harborview in Seattle and Highline to the south. They already have horrendous reputations and I don't see it improving as a result.
That said health care costs are coming down and that is in response to the biggest factor in the free market - demand. This article discusses this and what that may mean in the longer bigger picture, or not\
And we have more employers opting to use the exchanges as ways to reduce costs and pass more onto the employee. Another article discusses that trend and where that future may head. Including actually offering health care management as GE is looking to do.
Choice is the key to the free market, but that concept has long left us in many fields.
Lower Health Insurance Premiums to Come at Cost of Fewer Choices
By ROBERT PEAR
Published: September 22, 2013
WASHINGTON — Federal officials often say that health insurance will cost consumers less than expected under President Obama's health care law. But they rarely mention one big reason: many insurers are significantly limiting the choices of doctors and hospitals available to consumers.
From California to Illinois to New Hampshire, and in many states in between, insurers are driving down premiums by restricting the number of providers who will treat patients in their new health plans.
When insurance marketplaces open on Oct. 1, most of those shopping for coverage will be low- and moderate-income people for whom price is paramount. To hold down costs, insurers say, they have created smaller networks of doctors and hospitals than are typically found in commercial insurance. And those health care providers will, in many cases, be paid less than what they have been receiving from commercial insurers.
Some consumer advocates and health care providers are increasingly concerned. Decades of experience with Medicaid, the program for low-income people, show that having an insurance card does not guarantee access to specialists or other providers.
Consumers should be prepared for "much tighter, narrower networks" of doctors and hospitals, said Adam M. Linker, a health policy analyst at the North Carolina Justice Center, a statewide advocacy group.
"That can be positive for consumers if it holds down premiums and drives people to higher-quality providers," Mr. Linker said. "But there is also a risk because, under some health plans, consumers can end up with astronomical costs if they go to providers outside the network."
Insurers say that with a smaller array of doctors and hospitals, they can offer lower-cost policies and have more control over the quality of health care providers. They also say that having insurance with a limited network of providers is better than having no coverage at all.
Cigna illustrates the strategy of many insurers. It intends to participate next year in the insurance marketplaces, or exchanges, in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Tennessee and Texas.
"The networks will be narrower than the networks typically offered to large groups of employees in the commercial market," said Joseph Mondy, a spokesman for Cigna.
The current concerns echo some of the criticism that sank the Clinton administration's plan for universal coverage in 1993-94. Republicans said the Clinton proposals threatened to limit patients' options, their access to care and their choice of doctors.
At the same time, House Republicans are continuing to attack the new health law and are threatening to hold up a spending bill unless money is taken away from the health care program.
In a new study, the Health Research Institute of PricewaterhouseCoopers, the consulting company, says that "insurers passed over major medical centers" when selecting providers in California, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky and Tennessee, among other states.
"Doing so enables health plans to offer lower premiums," the study said. "But the use of narrow networks may also lead to higher out-of-pocket expenses, especially if a patient has a complex medical problem that's being treated at a hospital that has been excluded from their health plan."
In California, the statewide Blue Shield plan has developed a network specifically for consumers shopping in the insurance exchange.
Juan Carlos Davila, an executive vice president of Blue Shield of California, said the network for its exchange plans had 30,000 doctors, or 53 percent of the 57,000 doctors in its broadest commercial network, and 235 hospitals, or 78 percent of the 302 hospitals in its broadest network.
Mr. Davila said the new network did not include the five medical centers of the University of California or the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center near Beverly Hills.
"We expect to have the broadest and deepest network of any plan in California," Mr. Davila said. "But not many folks who are uninsured or near the poverty line live in wealthy communities like Beverly Hills."
Daniel R. Hawkins Jr., a senior vice president of the National Association of Community Health Centers, which represents 9,000 clinics around the country, said: "We serve the very population that will gain coverage — low-income, working class uninsured people. But insurers have shown little interest in including us in their provider networks."
Dr. Bruce Siegel, the president of America's Essential Hospitals, formerly known as the National Association of Public Hospitals and Health Systems, said insurers were telling his members: "We don't want you in our network. We are worried about having your patients, who are sick and have complicated conditions."
In some cases, Dr. Siegel said, "health plans will cover only selected services at our hospitals, like trauma care, or they offer rock-bottom payment rates."
In New Hampshire, Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield, a unit of WellPoint, one of the nation's largest insurers, has touched off a furor by excluding 10 of the state's 26 hospitals from the health plans that it will sell through the insurance exchange.
Christopher R. Dugan, a spokesman for Anthem, said that premiums for this "select provider network" were about 25 percent lower than they would have been for a product using a broad network of doctors and hospitals.
Anthem is the only commercial carrier offering health plans in the New Hampshire exchange.
Peter L. Gosline, the chief executive of Monadnock Community Hospital in Peterborough, N.H., said his hospital had been excluded from the network without any discussions or negotiations.
"Many consumers will have to drive 30 minutes to an hour to reach other doctors and hospitals," Mr. Gosline said. "It's very inconvenient for patients, and at times it's a hardship."
State Senator Andy Sanborn, a Republican who is chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, said, "The people of New Hampshire are really upset about this."
Many physician groups in New Hampshire are owned by hospitals, so when an insurer excludes a hospital from its network, it often excludes the doctors as well.
David Sandor, a vice president of the Health Care Service Corporation, which offers Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans in Illinois, Montana, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Texas, said: "In the health insurance exchange, most individuals will be making choices based on costs. Our exchange products will have smaller provider networks that cost less than bigger plans with a larger selection of doctors and hospitals."
Premiums will vary across the country, but federal officials said that consumers in many states would be able to buy insurance on the exchange for less than $300 a month — and less than $100 a month per person after taking account of federal subsidies.
"Competition and consumer choice are actually making insurance affordable," Mr. Obama said recently.
Many insurers are cutting costs by slicing doctors' fees.
Dr. Barbara L. McAneny, a cancer specialist in Albuquerque, said that insurers in the New Mexico exchange were generally paying doctors at Medicare levels, which she said were "often below our cost of doing business, and definitely below commercial rates."
Outsiders might expect insurance companies to expand their networks to treat additional patients next year. But many insurers see advantages in narrow networks, saying they can steer patients to less expensive doctors and hospitals that provide high-quality care.
Even though insurers will be forbidden to discriminate against people with pre-existing conditions, they could subtly discourage the enrollment of sicker patients by limiting the size of their provider networks.
"If a health plan has a narrow network that excludes many doctors, that may shoo away patients with expensive pre-existing conditions who have established relationships with doctors," said Mark E. Rust, the chairman of the national health care practice at Barnes & Thornburg, a law firm. "Some insurers do not want those patients who, for medical reasons, require a broad network of providers."
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subset: commoncrawl


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Research Resources
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ANN ARBOR, Mich. – Lead exposure in early childhood has been linked to lower performance on state achievement tests for many Detroit Public School students in several grades, researchers from the University of Michigan School of Public Health and colleagues report.
The researchers also found lower scores for children who had been exposed to lead at levels below the federal threshold.
In a paper to be published in the March issue of the American Journal of Public Health, the researchers found a strong relationship between lowered math, science and reading scores on the Michigan Education Assessment Program tests and elevated blood lead levels. High blood lead levels before age 6 were associated with poor academic achievement in elementary and junior high students.
Further, the researchers found that the higher the blood lead levels, the lower the scores, said lead author Nanhua Zhang, who currently is at the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of South Florida, but who conducted the research as a doctoral candidate at the U-M School of Public Health.
"We can clearly see a dose-response relationship. The higher the lead level in the blood, the lower the academic scores," said Zhang, who conducted the research as a member of STATCOM (Statistics in the Community), a student-led organization that provides pro-bono statistical consulting for governmental and nonprofit organizations.
"Even when factoring in grade level, gender, race, language, maternal education and socioeconomic status, we still found a significant impact of the blood lead level on the probability of scoring low on the tests."
Further, the team found a lower blood lead level than what is considered to be the level of concern was associated with lower performance. In May 2012, the Centers for Disease Control changed the acceptable level from 10 micrograms per deciliter to 5 mcg/dL.
"In reality, there is no well-documented threshold for acceptable levels of lead in the body, and our research shows that in amounts as small as 2-5 micrograms per deciliter, children had significant cognitive impairment," said Michael Elliott, professor of biostatistics at the School of Public Health and a research professor at the Institute for Social Research.
"Our publication really is a document that shows the degree to which childhood lead exposure impacts cognitive function. It's a real-world issue. These lowered test scores impact students' ability to move forward in the educational system and on to higher education."
The study linked lead testing surveillance records to MEAP data for 21,281 children who had a blood test prior to age 6 during the time period of 1990-2008. MEAP scores from 2008-10 were used for the study.
READ: Detroit schools: Students score record gains on MEAP
READ: Michigan sees improvement in fall 2012 MEAP tests
While some other studies have shown the effects of lead exposure on cognitive ability in young children, this one shows the impact on students in grades 3, 5 and 8.
The collaborative research team involved a number of Detroit leaders, including a member of the Detroit Public Schools administration and the Detroit Department of Health and Wellness Promotion.
Harolyn Baker, who represented the health department but now is director of the department of epidemiology and evaluation at Michigan's Quality Improvement Organization, said that even though campaigns to raise awareness of lead dangers and abatement programs to reduce the threat of contamination have been successful in some areas, more work needs to be done.
Baker said continued investments in primary prevention such as lead testing, remediation and abatement to sustain success toward the elimination of childhood lead poisoning are needed. Further, investments in research and educational interventions for children who already have been exposed are needed to help them regain cognitive ground lost by lead exposure.
"What happens to the children who get exposed? This has been the missing component of the discussion—once a child has been exposed, what do you do to help him or her overcome?" Baker said. "Lead poisoning is preventable. It's an area in public health that provides a clear pathway to solve the issue. It's essential that we keep this issue on the education, public health, policy and community agendas."
Other authors included: Hamisu Salihu, Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, University of South Florida; Margaret Tufts, Office of Health Information, Planning, Policy, Evaluation and Research, Detroit Department of Health and Wellness Promotion, Detroit; and Randall Raymond, Detroit Public Schools, Office of Research, Evaluation, Assessment and Accountability.


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A bittersweet day
Almost without fail, I seem to get lots of traffic on days when I'm away from my computer. Today was one such day. I got a lovely link from Glenn Reynolds, but I couldn't capitalize upon it by adding some scintillating posts because I've been gone all day. This inability to post, despite high traffic, wasn't what made the day bittersweet, though. What made it bittersweet was that I took my mother to visit old friends whom I haven't seen in twenty years, despite the fact that they were an integral part of both my childhood and my young adult years.
It was very strange meeting up with them, but in a good way. We'd all changed a great deal — my Mom's friends are in their high 80s, while their child is, like me, middle-aged — but they were still, in essential ways, themselves. The mannerisms, the humor, the warmth — all still there. Even the half of the couple who was quite diminished by age and illness beamed with happiness when we walked in.
Given how old and frail my mom and her friends are, I had anticipated that our visit would last perhaps half an hour. Instead, we stayed for two and a half hours, catching up on old times, sharing stories about children and common acquaintances, and generally renewing a very good, very deep friendship. Even my Mom, who has kept in touch with her friends by phone, got a treat because she hasn't seen them face-to-face in several years.
It all sounds good, right? So why was it bittersweet? It was bittersweet because, owing to a falling out that ran pretty sharp and deep, I lost twenty years of friendship with these people. Looking back, I can't quarrel with either their side of the dispute or with mine. From where we stood, all of us were right. But we shouldn't have let it waste twenty years. And it shouldn't have taken someone's serious illness to bring us back together. That's bitter.
The sweet part, though, is that I believe this was a solid rapprochement. We weren't just faking smiley faces to get us through an uncomfortable, but necessary, rendezvous. Instead, it felt right — and we already made plans to see each other again. And that is very sweet indeed.
When I was in elementary school, we sang a song that I bet most of you know. It seems very apt today:
Make new friends,
But keep the old,
The one is silver,
And the other gold.
Fortunately, this friendship was gold, and even the interruption of hard feelings and many years, couldn't destroy it.


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I'd Rather Be Wrong
The Johnson Treatment
About this sub-book, an AP reporter's mix of anecdotes and bilge, there is little worth saying except that it confirms the impression most literate people are likely to have of President Johnson.
Now and again we all succumb to the naive hope that behind a public man's appearance there must be another, private reality; but anyone involved in politics of whatever kind soon comes to learn that it is a mode of life enforcing a remarkable closeness between public and private styles. What drew intellectuals to Stevenson and Kennedy was, in fact, a sense that they were "different," that they were political men who maintained some critical perspective upon themselves and therefore experienced a strain between what they were and what they had to do. Stevenson gained sympathy because he seemed to find this burden hard to bear, Kennedy won admiration because he carried the burden with such grace. Now all this may be a mere indulgent fantasy on our part, for Stevenson's notable sophistication has not kept him from playing a role at the UN often humiliating and sometimes deceitful. Still, for those of us who believe that self-awareness and its inevitable consequence of self-division are the marks of a civilized man, it is hard to become emotionally involved with any public figure who does not at least suggest a trace of these characteristics.
Perhaps that is why the intellectuals, while obliged to vote for Johnson, have felt so little warmth toward him. In Mr. Bell's portrait he is a totally political man, clever but not thoughtful, calculating more than reflective. He appears at once sentimental and ruthless, thin-skinned and imperious, remarkably attuned to public moods and utterly expert at the "game" of political maneuver. He is all of a piece, seemingly monolithic, not only completely in but totally of politics. Upon the devices and costs of political manipulation he is capable of looking with some irony, but toward the idea of the manipulation itself and the kind of life it entails he shows no irony whatever. For him the system of American politics is an unquestioned "given," just as the system of Russian politics must be for Brezhnev. The man is the role; the person, the function.
Within very narrow limits, this may explain why he has been so much more effective than was Kennedy in securing passage of such desirable legislation as the Civil Rights and education bills. (I leave aside, for the moment, the fact that Johnson won the Presidency by a far greater margin than did Kennedy.) Johnson felt no awe, no uncertainty, no fastidiousness before the mechanics of Congressional politics. Understanding it completely and accepting it gladly, he worked entirely within its limits. Sometimes he twisted arms, sometimes he waved carrots. Thereby Johnson managed to achieve more on the domestic front than his predecessor, who was neither inclined to go to the people, as in part…
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Orville Johnson teaches the "The Arkansas Traveler" in the key of D.
Taught by Orville Johnson in Bluegrass Flatpicking seriesLength: 26:06Difficulty: 2.5 of 5
Good lesson. Fun to hear about your efforts to learn guitar.
this is by far my favorite one in this series. beautiful.
A sub-genre of country music which blends improvising with folk-like melodies. Pioneered by Bill Monroe in the 1930s in the "bluegrass" state. Learning to flatpick properly is absolutely crucial to the Bluegrass style.
Lesson 1
Orville Johnson starts out his Bluegrass Flatpicking Series with a lesson on alternate picking, a technique that is absolutely essential to almost all guitar styles.Length: 25:21 Difficulty: 1.0 FREE
Lesson 2
Orville teaches a classic song called "John Hardy" in the style of Mother Maybelle Carter.Length: 15:54 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 3
Orville teaches the classic song "Bill Cheatum" in the bluegrass flatpicking style.Length: 23:20 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 4
Orville Johnson explains how to play the classic song "Blackberry Blossom" in the bluegrass flatpicking style.Length: 26:00 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 5
Orville Johnson shows how the classic bluegrass fiddle tune "Whiskey Before Breakfast" can be adapted to the guitar.Length: 24:05 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 6
Orville Johnson teaches how "Billy in the Lowground," a classic fiddle tune, can be adapted to bluegrass style guitar.Length: 20:40 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 7
Orville Johnson teaches the classic bluegrass song "Salt Creek."Length: 19:56 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 8
Orville Johnson teaches the classic buegrass song "Midnight on the Water."Length: 39:42 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 9
Orville Johnson teaches a solo guitar version of the classic song "The Wayfaring Stranger."Length: 21:12 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 10
Orville Johnson demonstrates the classic bluegrass song "The Eighth of January."Length: 20:32 Difficulty: 3.0 Members Only
Lesson 11
Orville Johnson teaches "Over the Waterfall."Length: 21:40 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 12
Orville Johnson demonstrates one of the most widely used bluegrass licks. This lick is named after "Lester Flatt" and simply called the "Lester Flatt G Lick."Length: 15:14 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 13
Orville Johnson explains how to play the classic song "June Apple."Length: 21:27 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 14
Orville Johnson teaches a bluegrass guitar version of the classic song "Soldier's Joy."Length: 13:22 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 15
Orville Johnson teaches the "The Arkansas Traveler" in the key of D.Length: 26:06 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 16
Orville Johnson teaches his version of "I Don't Love Nobody."Length: 19:14 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 17
Orville Johnson covers the classic tune "Old Joe Clark."Length: 19:27 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 18
Orville Johnson continues building your bluegrass fiddle tune repertoire with another great song called "The Red-Haired Boy."Length: 27:49 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 19
Orville Johnson teaches "Black Mountain Rag" in the key of E.Length: 26:25 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 20
In continuation of his previous lesson, Orville Johnson teaches "Black Mountain Rag" in the key of A.Length: 23:31 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 21
Orville Johnson takes a look at the bluegrass standard "St. Anne's Reel".Length: 20:43 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 22
In this lesson, Orville Johnson teaches a fantastic new tune called "Glory in the Meeting House".Length: 19:00 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 23
In his latest Flatpicking Bluegrass lesson, Orville Johnson teaches a tune called "Under the Double Eagle".Length: 31:50 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 24
Orville Johnson continues building your bluegrass flatpicking repertoire with another great tune called "Crossing The Big Sandy River".Length: 11:00 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 25
Orville Johnson teaches another great bluegrass flatpicking tune called "When He Calls Me".Length: 12:45 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 26
Orville Johnson teaches "Ragtime Annie," another bluegrass tune to add to your repertoire.Length: 15:13 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 27
Orville Johnson continues to build your bluegrass fiddle tune repertoire with a fun tune called "Bonaparte's Retreat".Length: 20:13 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 28
Orville Johnson takes a look at another fiddle tune called "Reuben's Train" in this lesson.Length: 13:57 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 29
Orville Johnson takes a look at a fun song called "Turkey in the Straw" in this lesson.Length: 9:54 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 30
In this lesson, Orville introduces an exercise called "The Mirror Technique." This is a technique that will improve the communication between your picking hand and fretting hand.Length: 21:09 Difficulty: 1.5 Members Only
Lesson 31
Welcome to yet another lesson on picking exercises! Orville demonstrates how to achieve double picking and triplet picking techniques that are common in all musical styles.Length: 23:25 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 32
This traditional song offers the standard A and B parts and is another essential song to add to your repertoire of tunes that can be played with friends.Length: 18:15 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 33
Orville teaches a blues melody in G major and also explains how to "comp" or accompany/compliment the melody with the Freddie Green rhythm.Length: 19:54 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 34
Orville reopens the subject of lead techniques. He presents ideas on how to successfully build a solo and understand how to leave space to be most effective when playing with others.Length: 14:33 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 35
Time to design a solo! Orville breaks down the techniques needed to build a successful solo while both explaining space and scale theory.Length: 19:49 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 36
This lesson is all about harmonic structure. Orville uses the theory taught in the previous lesson to help you choose the correct notes when building a solo.Length: 23:03 Difficulty: 3.0 Members Only
Lesson 37
How about another classic bluegrass tune? "Bully of the Town" offers up a chance to use a capo and apply key change techniques.Length: 25:23 Difficulty: 2.5 Members Only
Lesson 38
Orville Johnson is back to his bluegrass flatpicking series. In this lesson, he discusses and teaches "The Beaumont Rag". This tune serves as a great picking exercise and is also a ton of fun to play!Length: 23:28 Difficulty: 2.0 Members Only
Lesson 39
Orville Johnson shows how to play a classic Bluegrass tune entitled "Cherokee Shuffle." It's fun, slightly challenging and sounds great.Length: 35:05 Difficulty: 3.0 Members Only
Lesson 40
Orville Johnson travels back in time to teach a classic song called "Banks of the Ohio." Though this tune features a rather sordid narrative lyrically, the music is still quick, upbeat and fun to play.Length: 42:50 Difficulty: 3.0 Members Only
About Orville Johnson
View Full Biography
Orville Johnson was born in 1953 in Edwardsville, Illinois and came up on the St. Louis, Missouri music scene, where he was exposed to and participated in a variety of blues, bluegrass and American roots music. He began singing in his Pentecostal church as a young boy, in rock bands in middle school, then took up the guitar at 17,with early influences from Doc Watson, Rev. Gary Davis, Mississippi John Hurt, and Chuck Berry. In the early 1970's, Orville spent several seasons playing bluegrass on the SS Julia Belle Swain, a period-piece Mississippi river steamboat plying the inland waterways, with his group the Steamboat Ramblers.
Orville moved to Seattle, Washington in 1978, where he was a founding member of the much-loved and well-remembered folk/rock group, the Dynamic Logs. Other musical associates include Laura Love, Ranch Romance, File' Gumbo Zydeco Band, Scott Law, and the Twirling Mickeys. Johnson, known for his dobro and slide guitar stylings and vocal acrobatics, has played on over 100 albums. He has appeared on Garrison Keilor's Prairie Home Companion, Jay Leno's Tonight Show and was featured in the 1997 film Georgia with Mare Winningham. His musical expertise can also be heard on the Microsoft CD-ROMs, Musical Instruments of the World and the Complete Encyclopedia of Baseball. He teaches as well at the International Guitar Seminar, Pt. Townsend Country Blues Week and Puget Sound Guitar Workshop.
Orville released 4 recordings in the 1990's: The World According to Orville (1990) Blueprint for the Blues (1998) Slide & Joy (1999) an all-instrumental dobro tour de force and Kings of Mongrel Folk (1997) with Mark Graham. He also appeared on 4 discs with the File' Gumbo Zydeco Band and produced Whose World Is This (1997) for Jim Page and Inner Life (1999) for Mark Graham. In the 21st century, he has released Freehand, a new Kings of Mongrel Folk disc, Still Goin' Strong, and been featured in the soundtracks of PBS' Frontier House and the Peter Fonda flick The Wooly Boys as well as the compilation cd Legends of the Incredible Lap Steel Guitar.
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Theo Fennell- The Magical Dawn Key Pendant
I have always been obsessed with old house keys. When I was ten we had a classic bronze metal key to our house and since then I've just loved keys. For a while now I've been particularly obsessed with Theo Fennell's keys. It's the Magical Dawn Key Pendant that I'm obsessed with now. I loveContinue reading


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As of now, the cold war continues, and North Korea has officially ended its Non-Aggression pact with South Korea as well as voiding past nuclear disarmament agreements. North Korea is claiming to have nuclear-capable missiles and are positioning road-mobile KN-08 intercontinental ballistic missiles which the United States believes can be nuclear capable, though there is debate as to whether or not North Korea has been able to miniaturize a nuclear warhead enough to fit on one. In response to the North Korean nuclear threat, the United States is adding additional missile interceptors on its West coast.
And also
Elsewhere, China is building a large drone fleet, with aim to swarm U.S. carriers during war, while cyber-attacks from China are now beginning to target critical infrastructure in the United States. Russia has announced plans to form a permanent task force in the Mediterranean while the United States has canceled the final phase of the European missile shield.
It seems as every global superpower has its own plans to find some profit from if a war occured. And what do you think is going to happen and where is all of this going to be driven?