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January's average temperature is 33 F/1 C. Temperatures tend to dip below freezing in the evening. July's average temperature is 75 F/24 C with sunny, humid days that sometimes exceed 90 F/32 C with more than 90% humidity. April and October average temperatures are in the 50s F/10-15 C.
Annual rainfall is 41 in/104 cm, with the heaviest rain in July and August. Annual snowfall is 21 in/53 cm.
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Johna Edmonds doesn�t want to be known as just another pretty face. Miss North Carolina said she wanted to leave a legacy of literacy.
Johna Edmonds doesn�t want to be known as just another pretty face. Miss North Carolina said she wanted to leave a legacy of literacy.
Edmonds participated in the Reading Oasis Book Fair Tuesday at Graham A. Barden Elementary School in Havelock, speaking with teachers, parents and students about the importance of literacy.
�For me, especially growing up, there were always a lot of hindrances,� Edmonds said of reading. �I want to share my story to let them know you can dream as far and wide as you want to. You just have to put you mind to it.�
The Lumberton native said she struggled with reading in the second grade when books stopped having pictures as guidelines.
�I struggled with comprehension because there were no more pictures in the books,� she said.
Edmonds said she had known for some time that she wanted literacy to be the main focus of her year-long service platform as Miss North Carolina.
The North Carolina State University graduate said that being Miss North Carolina is not just about being pretty.
�It�s not always about how beautiful you are on the outside,� Edmonds said. �I want my legacy to be the work that I�ve done with my platform.�
Libby Greene, media coordinator at Graham A. Barden, organized Edmonds� visit for the book fair.
�I was actually reading a lot about her program on literacy and I messaged her on Facebook,� Greene said. �I looked up her contact information and found her.�
Teachers and students alike stepped up to have newly purchased books autographed by Edmonds. Alina Jackson, a fourth-grader, was one of them.
�It was awesome, because this was my first time getting a book signed,� Jackson said.
In the book, Edmonds wrote �Always Dream Big.�
�I couldn�t wait for her to get here, because she is so excited about literacy,� said Christine White, a reading teacher at the school.
White saw the enthusiasm in the students in anticipation of Edmonds� visit.
�They have been extremely excited,� she said. �They have been talking about it all day.�
After taking a year off from her education while serving as Miss North Carolina, Edmonds said she would return to N.C. State as a graduate student to obtain her master�s degree in accounting and then hopes to enter the workforce at a major accounting firm.
Drew C. Wilson is a reporter for the Havelock News.

subset: commoncrawl


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In a world where war and violence regularly make headlines, students at the West Elementary School believe peace should be celebrated more often. And Monday, they helped do something about it.
In a world where war and violence regularly make headlines, students at the West Elementary School believe peace should be celebrated more often.And Monday, they helped do something about it.
Students created and decorated small pinwheels and placed them in a display on the school's front lawn. Called Pinwheels for Peace, the act was designed to commemorate International Day of Peace, which was officially held the day before.Jeremy Yasi thought it was a great idea. "We need a day for peace," said Yasi, 10.
The fifth-grader defined peace as "calm and relaxing."
"It's about no drugs and no violence and no bad words and no people dying," said Yasi.
Pinwheels for Peace is an art installation project that was started in 2005 by two Florida art teachers. The West Elementary School was one of thousands of schools expected to participate in this year's project. Last year, through Pinwheels for Peace, more than 1.2 million pinwheels spun in locations throughout the United States, Europe, Asia, Australia, Canada, the Middle East, Africa and South America.
The project, according to West School art teacher Carolyn Kinniery, was created as a way for students to express their feelings about what's going on in the world and in their lives.
"I heard about this and really just wanted to do it with the kids," said Kinniery.
Before having the students create the paper pinwheels, the teacher spent time talking about the message of peace.
"Kids have different views and definitions of what peace means – it doesn't all have to relate to war," said Kinniery. "It is interesting to hear what the kids think."
Students in grades 3, 4 and 5 all participated in the project. After creating the pinwheels, they wrote their thoughts about war, peace, tolerance and/or living in harmony with others on one side. They drew pictures to visually express their feelings on the other side.
Kinniery said a total of 200 pinwheels were created by the students."It was fun," said Selena Florival, 11.
The fifth-grader defined peace on her pinwheel by putting an X through the word "war." Then, she wrote the word "friends" and listed some of her friends' names.
Peace, she added, is about freedom and being together in the world.
Another fifth-grader, Tabatha Norton, also defined peace as a world without war. But, she added that peace should be in schools as well.
"Peace means no bullying and no peer pressure," said Norton, 10.
Kinniery, who also teaches art at the Hansen School, said the project was successful and the students really enjoyed being able to display their artwork.
"We had 15 kids placing the pinwheels in the grass this morning…cars were going by and people were beeping and waving and the kids were smiling and making peace signs back at them," said Kinniery. "It was really nice."
Some students, she said, were concerned about what would happen with the artwork.
Kinniery did a little research and is sending all of the pinwheels to a group called United Peace. The group, started by a woman whose firefighter brother was killed on 9/11, collects pinwheels and sends them to children in orphanages throughout the world.
"She sends them as a message of peace and friendship," explained Kinniery.
The West School pinwheels are expected to be sent to Africa or Afghanistan, said Kinniery.
Knowing there can be peace in the world, even for one day, meant a lot to Jordon Jones, 11.
"Pinwheels for peace is about a day to relax," said Jones, a fifth-grader. "I hope the school does it next year and that the kids enjoy it like we did."
For more information, go to http://www.pinwheelsforpeace.com.
Stoughton Journal


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The Health Benefits of the Mediterranean Diet
Thank you to University of South Carolina first lady Patricia Moore-Pastides, who visited our hospital for a special luncheon on November 19th to talk about the health benefits of the Mediterranean Diet.
Lunch was provided using Mrs. Pastides' recipes from her acclaimed Greek Revival cookbook. The luncheon was part of diabetes education at Lexington Medical Center and a diabetes symposium.
Mrs. Pastides holds a master's degree in public health from the Yale University School of Medicine. With the help of the Carolina community, she wrote Greek Revival: Cooking for Life, a cookbook published by the University of South Carolina Press. It contains 87 recipes and illustrates the health benefits of the traditional Mediterranean diet and lifestyle. Sales from the book support health and sustainability initiatives on campus.
Mrs. Pastides came to the Universityof South Carolinain 1998. Her husband, Dr. Harris Pastides, is the 28th president of USC, elected by the university's board of trustees on August 1, 2008. Before serving as president, Dr. Pastides served as vice president for research and health sciences and dean of the Arnold School of Public Health.


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Debate:Who created God?
If there exist a God/superior being who created this being. When I ask this question I get " God created himself". How is this logical?-Ros
Why is it necessary for God to have been created? God could always have existed. jdstarrett
- I'm sure Philip will get involved here—and believe you me, he is far more qualified to answer this question—but I'm going to take a stab at it. The problem that most can't get past is the notion that God "is, was, and ever shall be," the alpha and omega, so on and so forth. God supercedes time; he in fact created time according to the Judeo-Christian theology. There was no past before God/YHWH. Nothing needed to come before him, because he is the source of all things, including time itself. It gets complicated there because it's hard to imagine a universe without time; though technically, there wasn't a universe at all until he created it (once again, according to Judeo-Christian theology or at least my best knowledge of it). I'm going to let Philip chime in here and correct any mistakes I've made, and maybe give you a bit more concise explanation as I'm sure he—or one of the many others here—have come across this question far more often than I have. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 12:00, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
- That violates the second law of thermodynamics.RaymondZ 11:40, 28 December 2012 (EST)
Typical Darwin lover know-it-all question. Ok smart guy, tell me where space ends and I will tell you who created God.-- jp 12:12, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
- Okay, Jeffrey W. Lauttamus invited me here to comment, so here I am. God is an uncreated being, so it is nothing more than a nonsense question to ask who created an uncreated being.
- That likely then raises the question about how He could be uncreated, to which there are at least two replies:
- As Jeffrey explained, God exists outside of time. He created time; He is not subject to it. A beginning implies a point in time, but as God is outside of it, that He had a beginning doesn't follow.
- Something (or someone) must be eternal. If it's not God, it might be this universe. But science now has good reason to think that the universe is not eternal, which begs the question of who or what created the universe. (And the universe, by the way, is known as the space/time continuum; time itself began with the universe.) Ultimately, as you go back, the only option left is something or someone that is eternal. And as the laws of physics don't allow for something physical to be eternal, then that something/someone must be non-physical, or spiritual.
- Philip J. Rayment 12:25, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Ok... That makes since. We cannot bound God to logic because he created it. Thanks for clearing that up.-Ros
- Huh? Philip J. Rayment 09:45, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
This is an interesting subject. One of the most common argument's for God's existence is some form of the 'watchmaker' analogy - I.E. that the existence of the universe implies that it was created & therefore the existence of a creator (God). Does the existence of God also imply that He was created? And if not, why not? Sideways 10:04, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
- The watchmaker analogy is referring to something that was obviously designed because of it's complexity of multiple interacting parts that would not occur naturally. God is not a complexity of multiple interacting parts, so the same argument does not apply to him. Philip J. Rayment 10:09, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
- There are many examples of complex interacting ecosystems occurring naturally. But of course the watchmaker analogy would suggest that these are in fact created. That is the problem with the waychmaker argument - it suggest that what seems to occur naturally actually doesn't occur naturally. It cannot be disproved, but it only proves itself if it assumes itself to be true. Sideways 10:21, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
- No, it's not a circular argument at all. It is arguing from what we observe (that complex things such as watches and other machinery do not occur without a designer) to what we don't observe (the origin of living things). That sort of deduction is perfectly valid, even if not absolute proof. And we are talking about the origin of living things, so I dispute that they do "seem" to occur naturally. Being unobserved, they don't "seem" anything. Philip J. Rayment 10:28, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
- There are many examples of complex interacting ecosystems occurring naturally. But of course the watchmaker analogy would suggest that these are in fact created. That is the problem with the waychmaker argument - it suggest that what seems to occur naturally actually doesn't occur naturally. It cannot be disproved, but it only proves itself if it assumes itself to be true. Sideways 10:21, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
- See my problem is that I don't understand why something or someone "must be" eternal. Why could the universe have not 'just happened'? Sure it might be unlikely but maybe it isn't. I just don't see the need for God in a logical argument about the existence of anything. Bolly 10:47, 29 September 2008 (AEST)
- See my problem is that I don't understand how something could have 'just happened' out of absolutely nothing. If you want to fantasize that absolutely nothing can become something for no reason, then I can't stop you, but that is the realm of fantasy and blind faith, whereas I prefer to stick to reason and observation (we observe that everything that happens has a cause). That something must be eternal is a deduction from that. The logic for God is that this physical universe must have had a beginning, all events have a cause, the cause of all of physical reality must be something non-physical (i.e. supernatural), therefore there must be a God. Philip J. Rayment 01:21, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
- See my problem is that I don't understand why something or someone "must be" eternal. Why could the universe have not 'just happened'? Sure it might be unlikely but maybe it isn't. I just don't see the need for God in a logical argument about the existence of anything. Bolly 10:47, 29 September 2008 (AEST)
- Haha oh how I have missed debating against you. OK. Well I don't quite see it as that. I don't think that something can come from absolutely nothing either. But I cannot postulate a God to solve that problem because God himself is complex. Certainly we cannot see or examine him to prove how complex he is physically. But an omniscient, omnipotent being that created the entire universe and life itself? That cannot be anything BUT complex. And something that complex has to have a starting point because only something simple, incredibly simple can come about by chance. Something like a singularity. Note that I'm not saying that the Big Band did come around by chance, only that it is far more likely then God coming about by chance. I admit that this is not as scientific or provable as I would like it to be, it does involve some blind faith, however I think that you're position involves more blind faith then mine.
- I do take issue with your assertion that "the cause of all of physical reality must be something non-physical (i.e. supernatural)". Why do you say that? I cannot see how you reached that conclusion. Bolly 22:49, 29 September 2008 (AEST)
- God is not complex: He is not composed of parts. See an earlier post of mine.
- If the cause of all physical reality was something physical, then something physical must have existed before something physical existed. This is an impossibility, so the only option left is that the cause of all physical reality must be something non-physical.
- Philip J. Rayment 10:17, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
Actually thats the only option the bible leaves open, just because its the only possiblitiy you believe in doesn't mean its the truth. Logiclly there is no 'truth' nothing can ever really proven to be 'right' only that it cannot be proven wrong. Its why everything is considered a 'theory' including my claim i just made. You simply leave out the fact that you have absolutely no proof whatsoever that the universe can be of something that can rationally be explained without help of a greater being. Your saying that we cannot examine the thing that started the universe, and yet somehow you were able to magically understand that it created the universe. Before you can claim something you need to prove it. Just because some people are ignorant and dont understand the thinkings of logic and reason doesn't mean everyone will, your claim only pulls us further into the question of what created the non-physical then? What is the non-physical? If it doesn't consist of atoms than what does it consist of? how did this nothingness create something? User:ChillinBM
- I might not have put it as bluntly as Chillin did, but he's certainly made a clear point. For me, the claim that God is not complex seems to be supportless other then by continuous assertion that it is the case. All I have seen is "God is not complex. Why? Because we can't understand him." and maybe I have missed an important point.
- You're argument there is one of infinite regress and there is a problem with that. Just because you seem to have an infinite regress does not mean that you need invoke something supernatural as a terminator. For example, it was long wondered what would happen if you cut iron into the smallest possible pieces, and then cut it in half again. Surely, by logic, you could continue to halve the pieces infinately. In fact, the once you reach a single atom of iron, the regress has a natural terminator, if you cut the atom in half, whatever is left is no longer iron, it is some other element. I do not know what natural terminator solves the cause and effect regress however I feel justified in not assuming a supernatural terminator for this regress. Bolly 8:34, 1 October 2008 (AEST)
- No, ChillnBM, it is not the Bible that leaves only that option, but logic. But perhaps I was remiss in not explaining myself properly. I was working on the basis that there is the natural (or physical) and the supernatural (or non-physical). That is, physical and non-physical are, between them, all-encompassing. There can be nothing that is neither physical nor non-physical. So having eliminated one, you are left with the other.
- If "logically there is no truth", then that statement itself is not true. So logically, there must be "truth". What you are getting confused with is scientific proof. In that you are correct; science can only disprove, it can't prove. But that's different to truth, which must exist. See also sections 1 and 2 of my essay: Accuracy vs. neutrality on Conservapedia.
- I can't prove scientifically that God exists, but I can prove it logically by eliminating the alternatives. Science has eliminated an eternal universe, which means that the universe had a beginning, but has not explained (and cannot explain) what caused the universe to begin. Logically, the beginning of the universe (all of physical reality) must have a non-physical (i.e. supernatural) cause.
- We know that the physical must have had a beginning, but we don't know that the supernatural must have had a beginning, so there is no necessity to explain how the supernatural began. Furthermore, science also shows that time is an integral part of the universe, so without the universe, i.e. in the realm of that deduced supernatural, time does not exist. Which means that talking about a beginning for the supernatural is a bit of nonsense anyway.
- Deducing that something supernatural must have created the universe is not at all contradictory to saying that science can't study the supernatural, so there's no "magic" involved.
- "Before you can claim something you need to prove it.": And yet you didn't bother to prove that claim before you made it. Or prove it afterwards either. Furthermore, you yourself said that things can't be proved.
- I don't have to explain every point of something in order to claim the basic point. That is, I can legitimately claim that there must be a supernatural creator without having to explain what He is made of or how He created. And by the way, your final question was a loaded one, referring to the supernatural as "nothingness". Being non-physical doesn't mean that it is "nothingness". In fact, it is you who has this problem. If you discount God (the supernatural), then you are left with the Big Bang, which is nothing exploding and becoming everything. So I ask you, "how did this nothingness create something?".
- Bolly, the quote that I linked to was not just "continuous assertion", and neither was it "because we can't understand him". Admittedly that quote didn't go into much detail, but it indicated that there's been plenty of study of this matter (and study implies something more than "continuous assertion" or "because we can't understand him") and it also briefly explained some of the rationale.
- Your "satisfaction" in not assuming a supernatural terminator seems mere wishful thinking, given that you've found a different infinite regress case that didn't need one. That's not a solid argument at all.
- Philip J. Rayment 23:25, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
- I do not find that rationale convincing at all, and I still feel that it has little substance. From what I can understand, you outline the reasons why people like me think that God must be complex and they seem to me to be fairly convincing. In return you seem to say "how do you know that he cannot be complex?". Which is true, i don't 'know' that, however it is no real argument, simply a statement.
- It's not wishful thinking to posit a natural terminator when there are situations in which a former infite regress is shown to have a natural terminator. I agree that it is not a perfect analogy, and certainly not 'proof'. But I would argue that it is a lot more simple and more likely considering that the evidence for any form of supernatural activity, being or event seems to be very limited. So while we 'know' that natural things can exist, we cannot have the same certainty about anything supernatural. I apologise if my argument is not concise but I think you can understand where I am coming from. Bolly 22:06, 1 October 2008 (AEST)
- Is the evidence for the supernatural really that limited? Or is it just that you choose to not believe it? Or haven't looked for it? What sort of evidence would you expect? Even apart from the origin of the universe, there is the matter of the origin of life, and the incredible design and information evident in it. We know from observation that design requires a designer, and information requires an intelligence. We have no viable naturalistic explanation for the origin of life. I would consider that to be evidence for the supernatural. Then there is historical documentary evidence, i.e. the Bible. It records various supernatural events. True, one cannot scientifically test those claims, but one can look at the source of those claims and conclude that the source is a very reliable one. So again, that becomes evidence (albeit not scientific proof) of supernatural activity. So I reject your claim that there is very limited evidence. Philip J. Rayment 09:58, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
- I think it is. No, because although you might laugh at this claim, I have an open mind. If the evidence is there I am more then willing to look at it, examine it, and then accept it if it's satisfactory. Ah, the design = designer argument. You are correct that 'design' requires a designer, however it can be easy to mistake complexity for design. I don't think they're the same thing. I think evolution more the adequately explains the complexity of life. Leaving that aside, you are correct that the beginning of the universe and the origin of life are two events that we have almost no knowledge of, or evidence based theory for. However lack of a naturalistic explanation does not automatically mean that it must have been supernatural. And the bible. While I don't wish to start this argument again because it stalemates so easily and neither of us achieves anything, I do not accept the bible as anything more then a collection of anecdotes with some small historical accuracy, that only comes from an event that is recorded several generations after its occurence. That's not to say that the bible is worthless, only that you cannot use it on its own to support supernaturalism. For example, some conspiracy theorist whos name sounded dutch but I cannot remember it, claimed that the story of Sodom was actually about an alien civilisation nuking the city. Ridiculous? Almost certainly, but his "theory" almost perfectly explained the origin of that bible story. I'm definately not saying that he was correct, just that the bible can prove a lot of things if you want it to. Bolly 9:52, 2 October 2008 (AEST)
- Almost everybody thinks that they have an open mind, so thinking it is not much in the way of evidence.
- Is it truly easy to mistake complexity for design? What complexity do you know of that wasn't designed? Of course, if you mention life, you are begging the question, and evolution can't explain it.
- The origins of the universe and of life are not simply things for which there is a "lack of a naturalistic explanation", but for which the naturalistic explanation is against. For example, experiments, such as Stanley and Miller's(?), show that life could not occur naturally. I'm not saying that such experiments rule out all possible explanations; rather, I'm saying that the experiments not only did not support naturalistic origins of life, but also provided reasons against a naturalistic explanation. To provide an example of that example, life requires optically-pure amino acids, whereas their experiment produced a mixture of left- and right-handed amino acids. That is, their experiments produced a problem for naturalistic explanations to explain. In summary, the available evidence is not simply missing, but opposed to a naturalistic explanations.
- The Bible has far more than just "small historical accuracy", and most of it is eye-witness accounts, not "recorded several generations after its occurence".
- Are you thinking of Von Daniken? Without knowing his "explanation", I can't comment much, but most explanations I've seen of biblical events simply ignore large parts of what the Bible actually says. A good example is the claim that the flooding of the Black Sea is the origin of the Bible's flood account.[1]
- Philip J. Rayment 23:01, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
(unindent) You are right of course, but I still like to think so!
I think it is. You're correct that if I say 'life' it does beg the question but what about something like the water cycle? You know, evaporation over the sea, condensations in the clouds, precipitation over land or sea and it all starts again. Sure its not really complex but many tribes and civilisations over the years have worshipped a rain god or something like that. I already know that you're objection to evolution is that you think that mutations destroy genetic information. I fail to understand how you can think this when, while mutations will often destroy some information it instantle 'creates' new information. If GVA mutates to GHA, then the V has been destroyed and the H has been created. Massive, massive oversimplification I know but I still think it shows my point.
I agree that Stanley and Miller's (I think thats right) experiment did not support a naturalistic explanation however I think you overestimate the magnitude of the 'problems' it places in front of it. Life as we know it requires optically-pure amino acids, but that may be only because life very quickly evolved to be able to produce its own pure amino acids and thus no longer needed to rely on impure, left and right handed, amino acids. Over time we lost the ability to use these impure acids. Look I know that may sound far-fetched but it didn't take much effort to show that their experiment really simply failed to provide any evidence either way.
Von Daniken! Thats him! Thankyou, yes I love that guys writing, sure it's probably all completely wrong, but its great fun to read. No, because, if I remember correctly, his explanation actually didn't ignore anything that the bible said about the story. It explained everything I think, like why Lot's wife became a pillar of salt, and why the angel hurried them out of the city, and why that city was chosen to be nuked or something. And while I definately don't believe any of it is true, it has just as much evidence to support it as the bibles version of events does which casts some doubt onto the Bible's claim to historical accuracy. As for Noah's ark, I still think it has something to do with the end of the last ice age or something like that. I can't prove it, I know. But most civilisations have different flood myths, and you'd think they'd all have the same if a worldwide complete flooding had happened and everyone on earth was descended from Moses. By the way, minor unimportant question, If Adam and Eve had two sons, one of whom killed the other, how did Cain have children? Sorry, it's just kinda bothered me ever since I heard that story... Bolly 07:12, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
- Yeah, I like to think I'm open-minded too, but I know plenty would disagree with that!
- Your example of the water cycle fails because, like life, you haven't shown that it did occur naturally (without design). I could also object on another ground, but that would be tantamount to defining complexity as something that can't occur naturally, which is a valid argument, but perhaps I won't use it right now.
- Your mutation example (also) fails because of a misunderstanding of what "information" is. Information is something that conveys meaning. Words are information. So if you "mutate" "my name is Philip" to "my nsme is Philip", what new information is created? None. Rather, the information has been damaged (if not destroyed) (ignoring that our brains are smart enough to figure out what must have been intended). (And by the way, I created that mutation by "chance", by closing my eyes, cursoring back a few characters, and randomly pressing a key. I possibly could have created new information if I had intelligently designed the "mutation".) It is false to say that any change constitutes new information.
- Regarding Stanley and Miller's experiment, I already acknowledged that it doesn't rule out all possible explanations. But the point is that it is positive evidence opposed to the naturalistic position. Yes, perhaps it only rules out life as we know it, but then it is this life that we know that we are talking about. It's an interesting characteristic of believers in naturalism that they claim to be scientific, but when scientific evidence is presented that opposes their ideas, they resort to ad hoc speculation to explain away the evidence. So, it's inaccurate to say that the experiment failed to produce any evidence either way. It didn't absolutely prove anything (and "scientific proof' is an oxymoron anyway), but it did produce evidence against a naturalistic explanation.
- Forgive me for being sceptical, but I don't give your claim that "his explanation actually didn't ignore anything that the bible said" much credibility when it is clear that your knowledge of the biblical account is somewhat lacking. See the following comments.
- As for Noah's flood, you wouldn't expect all the stories to be identical, as stories that are retold and retold verbally tend to change, often inadvertently, but sometimes deliberately (parents telling children using locations, creatures, etc. that they are familiar with rather than having to explain unfamiliar concepts). But it's still the case that there is a lot of similarity; too much to explain other than with a common origin. See Great Flood for more on this. And everybody on Earth is descended from Noah, not Moses.
- The Bible records that after Cain killed Abel, they had another son, named Seth. So there's three sons, not two. Further, it also says that they had "other sons and daughters", so there's a lot more (Jewish tradition is two or three dozen of each, I believe), including potential wives for Cain. (How did he have children? The same way everyone else does: The Bible says that "Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant".) Now that may well raise another question in your mind, in which case I recommend that you read this.
- Philip J. Rayment 09:15, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
- Don't know about open-minded, but I see you as a decent person, and what more can you do?
- True. Very true. I'm making assumptions. Well in that case I ask, what do you need for me to prove, as much as is possible, that it is indeed not designed. For example I can point to a water molecule and show that its properties allow it to exist easily as a liquid and a lighter than air gas. Hydrogen bonding and so on, gravity causing it to fall and so on. Also I can talk about Mars, and how it has been discovered that it snows there, which is part of the water cycle, and thus say that if it had been designed for Earth, why does it also work on Mars? Yet I'm not sure if this will satisfy you.
- Again, true. I apologise for misrepresenting your argument. You are right, however genetic information doesn't work like that either. Because genetic information creates proteins, a mutation of that gene could result in a protein with differing properties. Mostly these probably make little difference, however sometimes the difference is significant, or it is a significant difference (I didn't just repeat myself, I did reread it to check) and so it has an affect on the organism. You know that, or at least some of it and you don't believe the rest. So changing the information isn't the same as changing a letter in a sentence. It's more like changing an ingredient or an instruction in a recipe. It changes the taste, or the appearance (yeast in bread) but it is still relevant and the cake, or the bread, or the animal is different. Sometimes worse, sometimes better.
- Yeh I did kinda start postulating. Alright, I admit defeat on that one, Stanley and Miller's experiment did provide some evidence against a naturalistic explanation for the creation of life. I still believe that a naturalistic explanation is the best one, but I cannot argue against you here.
- Touche. Noah, not Moses. I apologise, that wasn't a mistake based on lack of knowledge or familiarity, but rather an honest slip. A stupid, honest slip. So I don't blame you. But I maintain that Von Danikin's story, myth, etc, was just as well supported by the Bible's evidence as the Christian story is. If you don't believe me, then don't, it doesn't bother me because I don't actually subscribe to Von Danikin's beliefs. But if you ever have the time to read his books, I do recomend them as they are great fun.
- Yes they wouldn't be identical, but I would at least expect them all to mention an ark, and remember the name 'Moses' as their ancestor and so on. I think the differences in the stories are far to great to allow for a single event, rather they point to a rise of sea levels or something similar that occurred around the world and affected a variety of peoples.
- Ok thanks, I read the link, that explains it. Well not the whole link, but it answered my questions anyway. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. Bolly 09:50, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
- Further experiments similar to the Urey-Miller experiments have been performed since then. Perhaps it's best to start with those, /recent/ studies than couching an entire argument in an experiment that we know today was not without flaws. It may also be best not to take out of context what the experiment meant to prove; that the building blocks of life could be created under circumstances (then) believed to be similar to those of ancient Earth. In this regard they were right; all that comes after is beyond the scope of the study in question.Jirby 16:12, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
If you would like to play the logic game, heres a fun point of view. And your logic is still flawed.
1. The Creation of the universe is the most marvellous achievement imaginable.
2. The merit of an achievement is the product of its intrinsic quality and the ability of its creator.
3. The greater the disability of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existing creator we can conceive a greater being - namely one who created everything while not existing.
6 An existing God therefore would not be a being greater than which a greater cannot be conceived because an even more formidable and incredible creator would be a God which did not exist.
7. God does not exist.
Just to clear some things up, Nothing can be considered to be PROVEN in the term that a theory is only true until it is proven wrong. People like to say that things such as the big bang theory and evolution aren't true because they are just a theory. When in actuality, everything is a theory. Secondly you didn't seem to have read my other point, i said it can't be proven right, but also it continues to work until it is proven WRONG. In which case, you haven't proven my theory wrong, you pointed out that i dont have evidence, but the truth is, its true until proven wrong. My claim simply says that you need evidence before you can prove another theory wrong, or to prove yours is right. My evidence, look at the whole reason for debates and the scientific process. They are meant to find information on their subject and back it up so that it is evident that what they are saying is in fact logically possible or right.
Secondly, the big bang unlike God is something that has been debated and studied by scientists who spend their lives trying to understand the origins of the universe. The 'Nothingness' inside the singularity that started the big bang, has been recorded in other places in the universe, such as black holes. Its simple, the spec where the everything was inside was so infinity dense, that in technical terms is 'nothing'.
Science cannot study the 'supernatural' because it doesn't 'exist'. You claim that you cannot study god, and yet SOMEHOW the people that wrote the bible understood him? And Adam and Eve?
With your logic there we can say that since science cannot examine my imagination, im imagining that the world is a giant pillow. Since you can't go into my imagination and specifically EXAMINE the aspects of my realm, you cannot prove that its not real, therefore the world is but one giant pillow.
- Haha I like that logic, although its not very hard for a creationist to dismiss. I think though, despite the fact that I agree with you Chillin, you are more likely to get your point across if you put it a bit less aggressively. Christians are humans too! In all seriousness though, a debate is a lot more enjoyable if everyone is courteous despite disagreements. Bolly 22:30, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Break to assist editing
To Bolly:
How can you prove that the water cycle is not designed? You can't, because you were not there when it began, and neither do you know of anybody who was (except God, but we're ignoring him for this exercise). What you need to do is to find an example where its origin was observed, so that there is documentation of just how it came about. Now don't even think of claiming that there are no examples of complex things forming without anybody being there to observe them, because there are plenty being formed all the time, such as machines, books (the arrangement of letters is complex), and so on. Yeah, okay, they are things that humans have created, so they don't count as being undesigned—but that's the point: all the examples we know of were designed!
The difference between English (for example) words and genetic information doesn't change things. I'll explain. In English, words can be any (reasonable) length, and not all combinations of letters are used. This is unlike DNA where each "word" is three characters, and all 64 combinations are used. However, this is not the whole story. In English, it's not just the letters that have to be right, but the words, sentences, and paragraphs. Just suppose that every possible "mutation" of an English word produced another English word. That "mutated" word will still not make sense in the sentence. Similarly with DNA. A mutation will form another "word" (rather than nonsense), which will equate to a particular amino acid, but will the resulting protein make sense? Or the molecule which incorporates that protein? No. So you haven't really solved the problem.
Some changes are indeed like changing an ingredient in a recipe. The genes for recognising smells and viruses work this way I believe. But that's because the recipe for the fruit cake can accept any fruit. It can't accept rat poison being substituted for raisins, for example.
As for mentioning Moses when Noah was meant, I can understand and accept a simple mistake (and that's one that many make). (But then you made the same mistake in your reply!) However, it wasn't just that simple mistake, but also the mistake of claiming that Adam and Eve only had two sons. One simple mistake—a simple slip. Two mistakes, with one being more than just the wrong name—I question your familiarity.
I think that you expect too much in what you would expect the flood legends to include, and especially if you think that they would have the same words for them. The word "ark", from memory, basically means "box". The Greek account on the Great Flood page refers to a "chest". Is that really any different, when you allow for different languages, cultures, and etc.? And the Hawaiian account has "Nuu" in place of "Noah". That could easily be a version of the same name. And by the way, that page only has a small sampling of the similarities. Yet even so, there are some parallels that I consider remarkable. Why would independently-invented flood stories have a bird being sent out to see if the flood had subsided? That doesn't even seem to make that much sense, except in the case of Noah's Ark which may not have offered a view of the surroundings. Yet a number of stories have it. One of the birds that Noah sent out was a dove, and at least one of the other accounts specifically has a dove. And why the promise of the rainbow? It's understandable that a rainbow might be associated with a flood story, and even that the rainbow might be a reminder of the flood. But why would the rainbow be a sign that a similar flood would not happen again, per the Australian aboriginal account quoted?
To Jirby:
Do any of those more recent studies actually show anything more substantial? And in one point you are right: the experiments were done assuming certain conditions then believed to be the case on ancient Earth. Specifically, they assumed an oxygen-free atmosphere, because that was the belief, because an atmosphere containing oxygen would have destroyed the molecules being formed. But the view now is that the atmosphere had oxygen, which means that the experiment showed that they wouldn't get the right amino acids even assuming an atmosphere more favourable than would have existed.
To ChillinBM:
As Bolly says, your logic is easy to dismiss. Points 5 and 6 are pure nonsense, and even if true, point 7 doesn't follow from the previous points.
A theory is not "true" until it is proven wrong. It cannot (correctly) be proven wrong unless it is wrong, in which case it could not have also been true. And no, not everything is a theory. Some things are merely hypotheses, and some things are fact (such as my name being Philip).
Yes, some people do like to say that evolution is "just a theory", but this argument is specifically rejected by leading creationists[2] (and I hope Ajkgordon will bother to clarify his misleading claims in that regard).
God has also been debated and studied by many people, including scientists, so the Big Bang is not "unlike God" in that respect at all.
Black holes are not "nothingness"; they are something. Note in the following view from Big Bang expert (he invented one of the Big Bang versions) Alan Guth it does not say that stuff came from black holes or anything similar, but from "absolutely nothing":
The universe burst into something from absolutely nothing—zero, nada. And as it got bigger, it became filled with even more stuff that came from absolutely nowhere.[3]
Science cannot study the supernatural because the scientific method and its tools are only capable of studying physical stuff; not because the supernatural doesn't exist. I didn't say that you cannot study God. I said that science can't study God. But science is not the only way to learn things. We can study God because He has told us much about Himself, and because He came to Earth in human form 2000 years ago, and in other similar ways. And Adam and Eve, who had freshly-created brains without any flaws, knew Him personally.
Your last paragraph is illogical, and not the same logic I'm using. There are two flaws, if I understand you correctly. First, you seem to be arguing that because I can't examine your imagination, therefore I can't examine the world to see if your imagination is providing correct information. This is nonsense. Second, not being able to prove that something is not real doesn't mean that it is real. I'm not claiming that God is real simply because you can't prove He's not. If that's what you think, you've read your own preconceptions into what I said.
Philip J. Rayment 09:27, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
- Im sorry if i came out...hastily before, i dont mean to have anybody pissed off...well unless i dont like them of course, lol :D.
Anyway...you can't prove that the supernatural ect. Cannot be understood, because if it cannot be examined, obviously, it doesn't have any way to reach us. In which case, it doesn't affect us.
- Steps 6 and 7 are very simple.
- - God is the most powerful being, so he had to have had the greatest handicap in the creating of the universe, because if not, there is something that is more powerful than that.
- - If god existed while creating the universe, then he didn't make the most impossible achievement, because the greatest would have been creating the universe from non-existence.
- - God doesn't exist.
- Another simple point i'd like to make. Claiming that science cannot examine something makes no logical sense at all. Even if science couldn't examine something, there would be adequate debates on how the topic couldn't be studied and why it cannot. In which case, there is no EVIDENCE whatsoever that it exists. If you would like to argue about this, please try it at [4] Though i myself like to debate against such things, im not as far in the subject as most of the people on the forum.
- Anyway, im sorry about the theory thing, i was just paraphrasing and basing off what i can remember, im not exact, and im not very far in the studies of science or theology, though im still doing what i can to study both.
- "Anyway...you can't prove that the supernatural ect. Cannot be understood..": I don't claim that the supernatural can't be understood, so I don't have to prove it.
- "...if it cannot be examined...": But it can be examined, if it chooses to reveal itself to us. Which God has, Christians believe.
- "God is the most powerful being, so he had to have had the greatest handicap in the creating of the universe, because if not, there is something that is more powerful than that.": No, that's a non-sequitur.
- "...the greatest would have been creating the universe from non-existence.": That's still simply nonsense.
- "Claiming that science cannot examine something makes no logical sense at all. Even if science couldn't examine something, there would be adequate debates on how the topic couldn't be studied and why it cannot.": There is likely to be such debates (and there is in the case of the supernatural), but it's not a given that there necessarily will be such debates.
- "In which case, there is no EVIDENCE whatsoever that it exists.": Huh?
- "If you would like to argue about this, please try it at [5]": No, you raised it, so I will debate it with you.
- "Anyway, im sorry about the theory thing, i was just paraphrasing and basing off what i can remember, im not exact, and im not very far in the studies of science or theology, though im still doing what i can to study both.": Then can I suggest that you do study the Christian view, instead of trying to refute something that you haven't studied enough to know what you are talking about?
- Philip J. Rayment 22:36, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
- Ahh! Noah/Moses! I do apologise again. That was just plain ridiculous. Maybe the very fact I got it wrong once means I was more likely to get it wrong again? I don't know. Well you don't have to believe me, and it has been a while since I did last read it, maybe I'm becoming forgetful.....maybe I have Moses on my brain. I wonder why?
- Chillin does actually have a point though. He's using the ontological argument against itself, which, if you don't buy into that argument, is pointless.
- The recipe analogy does work though, because a cake made from rat poison would not 'survive'. A fruit cake could indeed have chocolate substituted and it might still work and be tasty. The protein doesn't have to 'make sense' because it only has to perform a simple function, with complex results. Regardless of how it performs, or fails to perform, its task, it still has an affect on the organism. So any viable permutation of the DNA will have a 'meaning'. Bolly 00:14, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
Arguing with me is fine, but i wont be able to show the evidence as well as the people on the forum i just submited as well because i do not study the topics as well as them. If you dont want to go there, its you choice, but it shows that you dont want to deal with who really knows more information. Just so you know, I study both, i've seen the christian view, went to church and christian school for my elementary years. Just doesn't seem logical to me, too many contradictions.
By the model of god put from the bible god should be omnipotent, and omniscience, there should be NOTHING that exists that can be more powerful than him. In which case, he cannot exists, because if he did exist, he wouldn't have the most power, because if something were to create the universe from a nonexistance, it would be more powerful than him.
By the way, I love your responses, quoting everything i say and put a simple 'nonsense' or 'doesn't make sense' next to it. Maybe thats how we should explain everything in the world.
Science is the simple step of anylizing anything. In this case, this 'anything' is supposedly nothing. I have a question for those who say that we cannot examine god. If it cannot be examed, how can it happen? Logically, if something is afflicted by god, god has to use something existing, or physical to alter what is happening in the physical world, in which case, non of it has been found nor detected in any manner.
And we seem to still miss the question, If god has been here from the beginning of time, who created time? Who created God? How come people can always say 'well what happend before the big bang?' but yet they cant face thier own problem of 'well what happend before god?'
- As mentioned above, there was nothing before God, for two reasons. Firstly, God is eternal. Secondly, God invented and created the timestream. "Before" refers to something that existed in the timestream before God, but God is outside of the timestream entirely, therefore this question doesn't apply to him. David Talk 14:21, 10 May 2010 (EDT)
According to Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This satisfies origins and rationally explains the observable universal reality. There is no other concept known to humanity that rationally explains the observable reality, other than Eternal Creator(s). If there is no Eternal God, then there is no reason, no rationality and no science. What human beings call "science" historically, has long been the BEST explanation until proven otherwise. Thus, Eternal Creator(s) remains the ultimate correct postulate of science until proven otherwise, as it remains both the BEST and ONLY rational explanation known for the observable universal reality.
No one
There is no God. Life came from molecules, which evolved to make life diverse as it is today. The Big Bang was created by a singularity. Time as we perceive it could have well began after the Big Bang. The belief in the Judeo Christian God is irrational because of Judges 1:19, "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron". The Judeo Christian God is less powerful than iron chariots? Belief in any benevolent omnipotent God is irrational because if God was both benevolent and omnipotent than he would stop all suffering in the world. KenJ 15:07, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
- First, you need to prove there is no God; second, you need to prove that life evolved as you specified above; third, you need to prove whether or not it was God who was "less powerful" then the iron chariots, or the tribe of Judah. Karajou 15:14, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
God is eternal and cannot be created, as the Bible confirms. Since God is eternal and has always been in existence, and since he is outside of time, there can never be a time to create God. John 1 clarifies this as plenty of other verses. (Nash)
- If God exists, he didn't have to necessarily be created. He could have always existed. Likewise, it's not necessary that the universe had to be created. It could have also always existed. When you get to this level (ie the period before the current incarnation of the universe), God and Universe are really the same thing, and we won't ever know (unless God is real and tells everybody about it). Time goes forward indefinitely, there's no reason it can't also go back indefinitely. SEdwin 22:50, 20 June 2011 (EDT)
According to Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This satisfies origins and rationally explains the observable universal reality. There is no other concept known to humanity that rationally explains the observable reality, other than Eternal Creator(s). If there is no Eternal God, then there is no reason, no rationality and no science. What human beings call "science" historically, has long been the BEST explanation until proven otherwise. Thus, Eternal Creator(s) remains the ultimate correct postulate of science until proven otherwise, as it remains both the BEST and ONLY rational explanation known for the observable universal reality.
- "Eternal Creator(s) remains the ultimate correct postulate of science until proven otherwise, as it remains both the BEST and ONLY rational explanation"
- There are a few things wrong with that statement.
- Theories are supported by evidence. There is no scientific evidence for any higher beings. Creation is a hypothesis - a guess. It is not a theory.
- Is is not rational to defy Occam's Razor (which one does when they say Creation is a better alternative to chance and known, testable physical laws).
- It is not the only
rationalexplanation. There are a handful of scientific models that are consistent with current data on how the universe began. SEdwin 21:19, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
Who created God? - the alternate point of view
Man appeared on the face of the Earth, after a while he tried to understand the really important stuff like why the sun shone, and the tides came in and went out. He thought about this long and hard. Maybe there was a sun god that hauled the sun across the sky each day, he thought. Many thousands of years later, man decided that maybe God had created everything, and once a critical number of humans (more than one, as it is not infradig to believe one's own hallucinations, but when two or more share them, then maybe it's real after all) started believing in this God, he came into being. The conditions were right for this to happen. God, having now appeared realized he had to do a major retcon on everything. The first was changing man to look like God, as he had made man in his own image.Pinkfloyd 22:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
According to Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This satisfies origins and rationally explains the observable universal reality. There is no other concept known to humanity that rationally explains the observable reality, other than Eternal Creator(s). If there is no Eternal God, then there is no reason, no rationality and no science. What human beings call "science" historically, has long been the BEST explanation until proven otherwise. Thus, Eternal Creator(s) remains the ultimate correct postulate of science until proven otherwise, as it remains both the BEST and ONLY rational explanation known for the observable universal reality.
No One - Physics Explanation
This assumes God is subject to the laws of physics but that God controls physics and the supernatural is by definition outside such laws, therefore our understanding, if God exists, is insufficient to know all laws that exist. Physics is insufficient to explain how our universe could exist at all, because all matter decays according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics and requires a beginning. Matter is temporal and not self-existent, therefore, the laws of physics cannot explain how we exist at all.
Only by positing someone outside the laws of physics and another dimension, such as a spiritual realm, can you explain how we come to exist. Numerous attempts to explain a self-existent universe apart from a Creator have failed miserably, such as the Steady State model. See Hugh Ross' "The Fingerprint of God" for a good breakdown of this. Science ultimately can't explain where the particles required for a Big Bang could have come from.
But a spiritual Creator would not be subject to physical laws that require a beginning and decay, He could be self-existent and all-powerful, much as that might boggle our puny minds. And apart from such a possibility, there is no explanation currently workable for how life could presently exist and matter occur at all. --Jzy 02:53, 4 June 2012 (EDT)


text:
Part 3 of the TED Radio Hour episode The Unquiet Mind.
About Joshua Walters' TED Talk
Comedian Joshua Walters, who's bipolar, walks the line between mental illness and mental "skillness." He asks: What's the right balance between medicating craziness away, and riding the manic edge of creativity and drive?
About Joshua Walters
Walters is a comedian, poet, educator and performer, whose work explores language, creativity, beatboxing and madness. He incorporates elements of spoken word and beatbox into his shows in a mashup of comedy, intimate reflection and unpredictable antics. In the past two years, Walters has performed in theaters and universities throughout North America, Europe and the Middle East. His eclectic combination of performance disciplines and his activity as an educator in mental health have given him a national platform and audience. In 2002, he co-founded the Depression Bipolar Support Alliance Young Adults chapter in San Francisco, one of the few support groups in the country that's specifically for mentally ill young adults. As a facilitator, Walters developed humor to address the subject of mental illness, reframing it as a positive. Walters speaks as a mental health educator, and has engaged in mental health advocacy at conventions and in classrooms nationwide.
Now Elyn Saks has been successful in spite of her mental illness. Performer Joshua Walters has been successful because of his. He gave this TED talk in New York.
JOSHUA WALTERS: My name is Joshua Walters. I'm a performer, but as far as being a performer I'm also diagnosed bipolar. I reframe that as a positive because the crazier I get on stage, the more entertaining I become. When I was 16 in San Francisco, I had my breakthrough manic episode in which I thought I was Jesus Christ. Maybe you thought that was, you know, scary but actually there's no amount of drugs you can take that can get you as high as if you think you're Jesus Christ.
WALTERS: I was sent to a place, a psych ward, and in the psych ward everyone is doing their own one- man show.
WALTERS: There's no audience like this to justify their rehearsal time.
WALTERS: They're just practicing. One day they'll get here.
WALTERS: Now, when I got out, I was diagnosed and I was given medications by a psychiatrist. Okay, Josh why don't we give you some, why don't we give you some, give you some, give you some Zyprexa, okay? At least that's what it says on my pen.
WALTERS: Some of you are in the field I can see. I can feel your noise. The first half of high school was the struggle of the manic episode and the second half was the over medications of these drugs where I was sleeping through high school. The second half was just one big nap pretty much in class. When I got out, I had a choice. I could either deny my mental illness or embrace my mental 'skill-ness.'
WALTERS: Pah-pa-rah!
WALTERS: There's a movement going on right now to reframe mental illness as a positive, at least the hypomanic edge part of it. Now, if you don't know what hypomania is, it's like an engine that's out of control maybe a Ferrari engine with no brakes. Many of the speakers here, many of you in the audience have that creative edge, if you know what I'm talking about. You're driven to do something that everyone has told you is impossible. And there's a book John Gardner, John Gardner wrote this book called, "The Hypomanic Edge," in which Christopher Columbus and Ted Turner and Steve Jobs and all these business minds have this edge to compete. A different book was written not too long ago in the mid-90's called, called, "Touch with Fire" by Kay Redfield Jamison in which it was looked at in a creative sense, in which Mozart and Beethoven and Van Gogh all had this manic depression that they were suffering with. Some of them committed suicide. So it wasn't all the good side of the illness. Now, recently there has been development in this field and there was an article written in the New York Times, September 2010, in which investors were looking for entrepreneurs that had this kind of spectrum.
WALTERS: If you know what I'm talking about, not maybe full bipolar, but they were in the bipolar spectrum. Where on one side maybe you think you're Jesus, and on the other side maybe they just make you a lot of money.
WALTERS: Your call, your call. And everyone's somewhere in the middle. Everyone's somewhere in the middle. So maybe, you know, there's no such thing as crazy. And being diagnosed with a mental illness doesn't mean you're crazy. But maybe it just means you're more sensitive to what most people can't see. Or feel. Maybe no one's really crazy, but everyone is just a little bit mad. How much? Depends on where you fall on the spectrum. How much depends on how lucky you are. Thank you.
RAZ: The former Joshua Walters at his New York TED talk.
RAZ: In just a moment, writer Jon Ronson takes the psychopath test, our show today, The Unquiet Mind. I'm Guy Raz, you're listening to the TED radio hour from NPR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.


text:
Artistic expression can be many things. It can be educational or a call to action. It can be soothing or shocking. It can reflect our times and passions. At its heart, however, it is an expression of the individual artist and his or her engagement with life.
Artists have been involved in the HIV epidemic since its earliest days, when there was little to medicate and much to terrify. In the U.S., ACT-UP's artistic offshoot Gran Fury helped push the epidemic in the face of the establishment, reminding us all that SILENCE=DEATH. Slowly, politicians and people began to get the message: Stop pretending that AIDS isn't happening and start taking action against it. A too-complacent and bigoted world needed to be shocked into spending money, developing drugs and finding a cure.
Canadian HIV-positive artists and their HIV-negative allies were also addressing the epidemic. General Idea -- composed of Felix Partz, Jorge Zontal and AA Bronson -- is one of the country's best-known collectives of AIDS-activist artists. Active from 1967 to 1994, by which time both Partz and Zontal had died of AIDS, they were pioneers of early conceptual and media-based art.
General Idea addressed the AIDS crisis with work that included some 75 temporary public art projects from 1987 to 1994. Their major installation, "One Year of AZT/One Day of AZT," was featured at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City and now resides in the collection of the National Gallery of Canada in Ottawa. The irreverent collective is perhaps best known for its 1989 AIDS graphic, inspired by Robert Indiana's iconic LOVE image.
While art was drawing attention to the unfolding epidemic, HIV-positive artists were living with a disease that, at the time, was usually fatal. For many, art was a way of processing this grim future and honouring those who had died of AIDS. Bob Sirman, director of the Canada Council for the Arts in Ottawa, was involved in Canada's art community during those early years of the epidemic. Art can be therapeutic, he explains: "We all have great challenges to find meaning in life. I think art helps us to find a sense of order and meaning when huge challenges like HIV come up."
The introduction of effective antiretroviral therapy (ART) in 1996 meant that the virus could be brought under control and death could be averted. Art filled with rage, denial and sadness was replaced by life-affirming work. More recently, a new generation of HIV-positive artists is raising again the banner of arts-based activism, marching in the footsteps of their predecessors. The art of four people living with HIV, whose stories we share in the coming pages, illustrates this evolution of HIV and art in Canada over the past 30 years.
The Lazarus: Stephen Andrews
The work of noted Toronto artist Stephen Andrews hangs in many collections and art galleries, including the National Gallery in Ottawa. Now it can also be seen in Toronto at the Trump International Hotel and Tower, which commissioned a 950-square-foot mosaic version of his work "A Small Part of Something Larger."
In his early days, Andrews often worked in monochrome and made collages, drawings and photographs. Then came AIDS. He was diagnosed in 1992 but thinks he may have been positive since 1985.
The year after his diagnosis, 15 of Andrews' friends died. In the same week Andrews lost his partner -- landscape artist, writer and theorist Alex Wilson -- and his studio mate Rob Flack, whose work in the period leading up to his death focused on vibrant depictions of the chakras and other internalized healing energies.
Andrews himself wasn't in good shape. "My health went off the rails," he says. "I was losing my sight, had about 40 T cells and weighed about 100 pounds." But his "glass-half-full" personality kept him philosophical about it all: "I figured I had a good body of work and I was resigned to the idea that the end might be soon. I was ready to go." And then it occurred to him that he was basically just waiting for an appointment with death.
His art kept him going and kept him in the present. "Denial was my friend and I stayed on today's page, not the future or past." Indeed, the pages that Andrews found himself drawn to at this time were the Proud Lives obituary pages from Toronto's Xtra! newspaper. These commemorative photos would become the starting point for his "Facsimile" series (see image, below).
"It was produced from 1990 until 1993, during the time when many people were dying weekly and there was still widespread ignorance and fear about the disease," Andrews says. "It was also prior to the construction of the AIDS memorial behind the 519 Community Centre, so my intention was to memorialize my friends, colleagues and the community that was stigmatized." Andrews says his art was never intended to shock people. "I find that [shock] is a less-than-useful strategy to convince an audience to engage in dialogue."
When ART became available, Andrews experienced what many at the time referred to as the Lazarus effect -- he came back to health from near death. He regained his energy and it seemed as though life's train wreck might have a happy ending after all. "When my health returned, I began working in colour," Andrews says. "Suddenly there was promise of a future and I wanted it to be in Technicolour" -- similar to the moment in The Wizard of Oz when Dorothy is blown out of Kansas into Oz and the film turns from black and white to colour.
Andrews' work spans 30 years and has been exhibited in Canada, the U.S., Brazil, Scotland, France and Japan. Describing the evolution of his ideas over that time, Andrews says, "Generally, there is a news story behind a given body of work -- be that AIDS, war or advances in surveillance technologies. The ideas embodied in these stories are like irritants and the work accretes around them like pearls."
The Community Voice: Tiko Kerr
Artist Tiko Kerr's work evokes the spirit of Van Gogh and Dali. Colour and light are primary in the Vancouver artist's vision but they take second place to his strong intuitive sense of movement and spatial orientation. For Kerr, everything is alive. His buildings lean and warp and threaten to topple, while streets heave. The colour is intense and richly pigmented.
Kerr spent his time between studios in Australia and Vancouver until he was diagnosed with HIV in 1985. "It was a huge shock and of course there were no drugs, not even AZT, to treat it," he says. "I came back to Canada and got great care at St. Paul's Hospital." His art served to keep him going, even as his health slowly declined. His goal became to accomplish at least one thing every day. At one point, Kerr admits, that goal was simply to get out of bed.
Today he has a renewed perspective and has learned how to raise his voice when needed. In 2005, Kerr took on the Canadian government, demanding access to experimental antiretroviral drugs that were his only chance of survival. The government initially said no, but after 10 months of a very public campaign, Health Canada reversed its decision in Kerr's favour. Access to those experimental drugs allowed Kerr to return to health and to creating his art.
Kerr says that much of his HIV-focused work since his revival in 2005 involves psychological portrayals of his hospital treatments (see image, right) as well as a series of self-portraits that were painted on the vast accumulated medical paraphernalia -- pill bottles, syringes and vials -- that is a byproduct of antiretroviral therapy.
During the more than three decades that Kerr has been an artist, his work has become a complement to the task of dealing with HIV. "When the virus was strong," he explains, "my work weakened, became darker, with quieter themes and solitary scenarios. Then, when a new medical regimen kick-started my immune system, my work soared in intensity, complexity, confidence and scale. The two entities have each become half of a new method of working and digesting the realities of my life."
While Kerr's art-making may be influenced by HIV, his art is not limited to it. "Since overcoming the situation with Health Canada and especially since my community has been so demonstrative in supporting my work and me, there has been a shift to my art becoming more and more a vehicle of social justice."
Kerr's series "You Are Here," for example, explored the notion of what Vancouverites call home. The paintings described places on English Bay, shopping carts under expressways, a woman who lives in her BMW, as well as residential buildings in which the renters have faced "renoviction" (a term that has sprung up in Vancouver to describe landlords' attempts to evict tenants on the premise of renovating units before dramatically raising the rents).
"My goal has always been to represent honestly the time in which I live and to give life to images and issues that might resonate with my community, the community that came out to support me when I needed them so badly," he says.
Tiko Kerr and Stephen Andrews survived a time when many other HIV-positive Canadian artists did not. In addition to General Idea's Felix Partz and Jorge Zontal, the art community in Canada also lost to AIDS many other vital members, including Aboriginal ballet dancer Rene Highway, artist Tim Jocelyn, poet and academic Michael Lynch and Newfoundland comedian Tommy Sexton.
The Radical: Jean-Pierre Pérusse
A new generation of HIV-positive artists has been shaped by the current medical and social realities of the virus -- longer lifespans for people with HIV, but in a society where the virus is forgotten, ignored or still stigmatized.
Montreal's Jean-Pierre Pérusse, a film and TV actor with training in multimedia, martial arts and dance, has a fondness for artistic propaganda that shocks. Long active in the world of HIV and AIDS, he says he likes to "bang on closed doors" and bring people out of their ignorance. He does not believe in what he calls "the victim thing." He says, "I want people to see that you can live with HIV and have a purpose in life."
Diagnosed in 1996, Pérusse was shocked at the reactions of people in the acting world when he disclosed his status. For one production, he recalls, "I was told that they could not use me, because there was a kissing scene. I was angry and hurt by that rejection. People were so ignorant."
In 1999, Pérusse founded Radical 5, a company that brings together artists and technicians from all backgrounds, mixing traditional theatre with new media, to create videos, shows and mega-events. He has created and directed many theatrical dance shows for the Bad Boy Club of Montreal (BBCM), which holds large-scale party events, the profits of which are donated to charitable causes, including HIV.
His shows for BBCM have often featured HIV. "At first, I incorporated the AIDS theme in the main show, often as the villain that we were fighting." In the 1999 edition, Pérusse set out to reflect music and dance from the time of French King Louis XIV to today. "The AIDS era was marked by 'Why' by Bronski Beat, preceded by 'Love to Love You Baby' by Donna Summer and 'Sexcrime (Nineteen Eighty-Four)' by the Eurythmics."
In 2008, Pérusse teamed up with Montreal photographer Bob Hendricks to produce Per7eption, a poster series of seven photographs that represent how people with HIV perceive society and how society perceives them (see image, right). For example, the poster "Bond 00+" depicts Montreal DJ Mark Anthony posing as James Bond with a martini glass and shaker full of pills and a gun on the table in front of him. The poster's intent, Pérusse says, was to show the public perception of HIV as a deadly weapon. "It was also to show that the James Bond figure represents how an HIV-positive person feels sometimes about the dilemma of living."
Pérusse has changed meds many times and has had many side effects. He recently found a combination that works and gives him new energy. Sadly, his partner gave up the struggle last year and drowned himself. "Art expresses who I am and it can help with healing," he adds. "It gives purpose to life and you can get lost in it."
The New Old-School Activist: Jessica Whitbread
Now studying at York University in Toronto, Jessica Whitbread was diagnosed with HIV almost a decade ago, at age 21. Like some of her fellow activists and artists at the beginning of the epidemic, Whitbread takes a blunt approach to what it is like to live with HIV and believes strongly in the role of art to both shock and educate.
Whitbread put her belief into action when she collaborated with queer feminist artist Allyson Mitchell to create a poster as part of a 2011 Day With(out) Art campaign led by AIDS ACTION NOW! The attention-grabbing "Fuck Positive Women" (see image, right) was one of a series of posters created by local Toronto artists to highlight current issues around HIV. Merging the worlds of art and activism, the controversial posters were plastered across Toronto during the weeks leading up to December 1 (World AIDS Day) to provoke discussion and dialogue.
While the reality of living with HIV has changed since the early days of the epidemic, the art created by Whitbread and Pérusse carries echoes from that time: It reminds a too-complacent world that HIV still affects many lives. "We are not losing creative artists on the same scale as 15 years ago, but the impact on individual lives has been immense," says the Canada Council's Bob Sirman. "HIV has impacted almost everyone, not just artists living with it."
Sirman says that art can be a medium for people to try to make meaning from what appears to be random and chaotic. "Whether it's painting, theatre, writing, cinema or dance, art can be a powerful means of framing and expressing life's narrative and making sense and meaning from it all. If art gives purpose to the artist, then, of course, it is healing as well."
Winnipegger Peter Carlyle-Gordge is a former writer for Macleans, Time Canada and The Financial Post_. He has also worked as a CBC Radio broadcaster and producer and is a former UK correspondent for_ The Toronto Star_. In the 1980s he was president of the Village Clinic (now Nine Circles Community Health Centre), a key player in the HIV epidemic in Manitoba._
The Positive Side of Art
The Positive Side has a long history of celebrating HIV-positive Canadian artists. "Not Your Average Joe" in the Spring/Summer 2005 issue featured an interview with celebrated Vancouver artist Joe Average, who created the "One World, One Hope" image for the XI International AIDS Conference held in his hometown in 1996 -- the same conference that announced the results of the first effective anti-HIV treatments. Canada Post later used his iconic image on a stamp.
The Art Positi+ve column that runs in every issue of The Positive Side shares the stories of artists living with HIV and has featured Montrealers Shayo and Laurette Lévy, Haligonian Simon Thwaites, Aboriginal artists Ron Horsefall and Wabishki Myeengun, plus many others.


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NC Baptist president considers US Senate run in 2014
The pastor of a large Charlotte church who is also president of the North Carolina Baptist State Convention says he's prayerfully considering a 2014 bid for the U.S. Senate seat held by Democrat Kay Hagan.
The Rev. Mark Harris of First Baptist Church told The Charlotte Observer on Monday he's listening to those who want him to run for the Republican nomination. Hagan is seeking re-election.
About 70 people from 20 counties backing Harris met last week in Charlotte.
Harris was a high-profile supporter of the constitutional amendment approved last year that limits marriage to a man and a woman.
Dr. Greg Brannon of Cary already has announced his GOP candidacy. Other Republicans considering bids include House Speaker Thom Tillis, Senate leader Phil Berger and U.S. Rep. Renee Ellmers.


text:
Backwards Compatibility
Fedora provides legacy system libraries for compatibility with older software. This software is part of the Legacy Software Development group, which is not installed by default. Users who require this functionality may select this group either during installation or after the installation process is complete. To install the package group on a Fedora system, use Applications > Add/Remove Software or enter the following command in a terminal window:
su -c 'yum groupinstall "Legacy Software Development"'
Enter the password for the
root account when prompted.
Compiler Compatibility
compat-gcc-34 package has been included for compatibility reasons:
KDE 3 Development Platform / Libraries


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Glories of Sicily
A circumnavigation of Sicily aboard the MS Serenissima
- 15 September 2020
- 23 September 2020
The island of Sicily has an incredible wealth of treasures and a geography which lends itself beautifully to exploration by sea with most points of interest located close to the coast. Owing to its benevolent climate and superb strategic position, Sicily has been coveted, fought over and colonised numerous times with the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Normans, Byzantines and Bourbons having all made their mark. During our circumnavigation of the island aboard the MS Serenissima we will discover Sicily's rich heritage which is the result of so many invading civilisations.
From magnificent Doric temples to great Byzantine cathedrals and bizarrely styled villas, there is so much to explore during our voyage which we have timed for September when the crowds of high summer will have departed and the temperatures will be pleasant for our guided tours. We will visit the Roman mosaics of Villa Romana del Casale, the Valle dei Templi, the superbly well-preserved Greek temples of Segesta and the Norman Royal Palace and Palatine Chapel in Palermo, the Byzantine Monreale Cathedral and the stunning Greek theatre at Taormina. We have planned some late departures from port, which gives the opportunity for dining ashore or an after dinner stroll in some towns which are particularly atmospheric in the evening. In addition, local guides and our onboard Guest Speaker will contribute greatly to your enjoyment and understanding of Sicily.
Useful links & Travel Advice
Please find a selection of useful websites to refer to for information from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office, on visa requirements, NHS travel health advice and other useful travel tips.
The charming MS Serenissima began her career as the Harald Jarl, cruising the Norwegian coastline and fjords. Extensively renovated in 2003 she was rechristened MS Andrea and began her life as a classic cruise ship, and was chartered by Noble Caledonia for a number of years. In spring 2012 MS Andrea was purchased by our longstanding associates Volga Dream and renamed the MS Serenissima. After a thorough renovation and upgrading, the charming MS Serenissima commenced cruise operations in April 2013 and we have chartered her for the majority of each year since knowing her to be perfect for small ship cruising. With her small size she can navigate into small, remote ports inaccessible to the big cruise ships and appears an impressive sight when moored. With her fleet of Zodiacs she is capable of both destination and expedition cruising.
Day 1 London to Valletta, Malta.
Fly by scheduled flight. Arrive this afternoon and transfer to the MS Serenissima moored in Valletta. Enjoy welcome dinner and drinks on board as we sail this evening.
Day 2 Licata for Piazza Armerina, Sicily.
From the port of Licata we travel inland to what is regarded as the finest Roman site in Sicily, the Imperial Roman Villa of Casale, which is located close to Piazza Armerina amidst wooded rolling countryside. This huge villa was built in the 3rd century and has some stunning floor mosaics. Our return drive takes us through the province of Caltanissetta, recognised today as one of the best wine making regions in Italy thanks above all to its production of high quality, prestigious red wines including Nero D'Avola. We will break our journey at one of these vineyards and enjoy a chance to sample some wine over a Sicilian lunch. Return to the MS Serenissima in the late afternoon and sail tonight.
Day 3 Agrigento & Valley of the Temples.
Although handsome in its own right and awash with Medieval atmosphere, Agrigento is not our main reason for calling at this southern coast port. Close by is the Valle dei Templi, a series of Doric temples and the most captivating of Sicilian Greek remains, a grouping unique outside Greece. Surrounded in greenery of olive and almond trees, admire the Temple of Hera, the Temple of Concordia, the Dioscuri Temple, the Temple of Olympic Jove and the Temple of Hercules. After lunch on board the afternoon is free to explore Agrigento and shuttles will run from the port to the town and the excellent archaeological museum which you can explore at leisure.
Day 4 Trapani.
Trapani, our base for the day, was the landing point for Peter of Aragon in 1282 to start the Spanish occupation of Sicily. This morning we travel inland to explore Segesta, one of the grandest Doric monuments to survive. See the unfinished temple dating from 424 BC as well as the theatre from where you can enjoy excellent views of the countryside and distant coastline. Either return to the ship for lunch with the afternoon at leisure or continue onto Erice, famed in antiquity for its temple dedicated to the goddess of love, the Phoenician Astarte, Greek Aphrodite or Roman Venus. A tour will take us to this stunning site high above the sea and to the beautifully preserved Medieval town characterised by its winding cobblestone streets and beautiful courtyards.
Day 5 Palermo.
Arrive this morning in the Sicilian capital of Palermo. After breakfast we will explore the city, famous for its jumbled and picturesque streets punctuated with ornate Baroque churches, domed Arab mosques and the glittering Byzantine mosaics that reveal a unique and diverse heritage. We visit the impressive 12th century cathedral which houses the royal tombs of Henri VI and King Ruggiero. Return to the MS Serenissima for lunch and this afternoon either enjoy some time to explore independently or join an excursion to Monreale Cathedral, said to be the most beautiful Norman Church in Italy, designed and completed by William the Good in 1174. With its thick walls and powerful towers, the exterior looks like an austere fortress yet it is the interior of this great Cathedral which is its crowning glory. Here the large nave, with its side aisles and grey granite columns set off the exquisite Byzantine mosaics on the walls above the arches.
Day 6 Messina & Taormina.
From the nearby port of Messina we will visit Taormina, a walled town lying in the shadow of Mount Etna, Europe's highest volcano. The town has been a popular tourist destination since the 19th century and our guided tour will include walking the characteristic alleys before visiting the 15th century Palazzo Corvaja and the impressive Greek Theatre from where there are marvellous views over the town and coast. For those who wish to enjoy longer here you will be able to take lunch independently in one of the local restaurants and spend an afternoon exploring at leisure before our coach returns to Messina. Alternatively, return to the MS Serenissima for lunch and enjoy free time in Messina before we sail this evening.
Day 7 Catania & Syracuse.
This morning we arrive in Catania. The architecture here is particularly impressive but a little forbidding being mainly constructed from black lava stone from Mount Etna. On a morning walking tour we will see the magnificent Piazza del Duomo which is a World Heritage Site, St Agatha's Cathedral and the imposing 13th century Castello Ursino. Alternatively join a tour to the slopes of Mount Etna, Europe's largest active volcano. Our drive will take us past scenic countryside, small towns and vineyards before arriving at the Silvestri Craters that were created in the eruption of 1892 and where, if weather permits, there are wonderful views. Return to the ship for lunch as we sail to Syracuse arriving in the late afternoon. Tonight we will be treated to a private concert in one of the town's palazzos accompanied with local food and wine.
Day 8 Syracuse & Noto.
Syracuse was founded by the Greeks in 734 BC and by the 5th century was a political and military power throughout the Mediterranean which rivalled Athens as the largest and most beautiful city in the Greek world. On leaving the vessel we visit the Neapolis Archaeological Park where we find a well preserved Greek theatre with seats carved from limestone. Paradise Quarry, now an attractive garden and orange grove, was the primary source of that limestone and is the site of the curious 'Dionysus' Ear', a vast grotto with an amplifying resonance. We will continue to explore the island of Ortigia where we find the Temple of Apollo, considered to be Sicily's most ancient Doric temple and the Baroque Cathedral, erected over the remains of the Temple of Minerva. The afternoon is free to explore independently or alternatively join a tour to the beautiful antique town of Noto which was built in 1703. Here we will see numerous 18th century palaces of incredible architectural value including the Duomo, the Museo Civico and the Convento dei Francescani. Return to the ship for dinner and sail this evening.
Day 9 Valletta to London.
Disembark this morning and transfer to the airport for our scheduled flight to London.
Dates and Prices
|15 to 23 September 2020 • 23 September to 1 October 2020
|Brochure Price
|Special Offer Price
|2 Standard Stateroom
|3 Classic Stateroom
|4 Superior Stateroom
|5 Deluxe Stateroom
|6 Junior Suite
|7 Owner's Suite
|8 Serenissima Suite
|10 Standard Single
Tour Reference Code: SCSE150920/SCSE230920
PRICE INCLUDES: Economy class scheduled air travel • Eight nights aboard the MS Serenissima on a full board basis • House wine, beer & soft drinks with lunch & dinner on board • Noble Caledonia onboard team • Shore excursions • Gratuities • Transfers • Port taxes.
Not Included: Travel insurance.
The charming MS Serenissima began her career as the Harald Jarl, cruising the Norwegian coastline and fjords. Extensively renovated in 2003 she was rechristened MS Andrea and began her life as a classic cruise ship, and was chartered by Noble Caledonia for a number of years. In spring 2012 MS Andrea was purchased by our longstanding associates Volga Dream and renamed the MS Serenissima. After a thorough renovation and upgrading, the charming MS Serenissima commenced cruise operations in April 2013 and we have chartered her for the majority of each year since knowing her to be perfect for small ship cruising. With her small size she can navigate into small, remote ports inaccessible to the big cruise ships and appears an impressive sight when moored. With her fleet of Zodiacs she is capable of both destination and expedition cruising.
Travelling with You
Dr Steve Kershaw
Dr. Steve Kershaw is a tutor in Classics for Oxford University Department for Continuing Education, an accredited lecturer for The Arts Society (ex-NADFAS), and lectures for the Victoria and Albert Museum's Early Medieval: 300- 1250 and The Classical World and Classical Revivals courses. His publications include The Penguin Dictionary of Classical Mythology, A Brief Guide to the Greek Myths, A Brief Guide to Classical Civilization, A Brief History of the Roman Empire, and A Brief History of Atlantis: Plato's Ideal State. He is the author and tutor for Oxford University's on-line courses in Greek Mythology and The Fall of Rome. In 2016 he appeared as an Expert Contributor to The History Channel's 'Barbarians Rising' series, and he has travelled widely in the world of the Greeks and Romans, both physically and intellectually.Dr Steve Kershaw will be on the following tour dates: 15 to 23 September 2020
George Hart
After graduating with degrees in Classics and in Egyptian Art and Archaeology from University College London, George Hart joined the staff of the British Museum. His career involved lecturing on Ancient Egypt, the Levant and the Bronze-age and Classical civilisations of the Mediterranean world. His interests include the spread of Phoenician and Greek colonies, especially in Sicily and the Western Mediterranean. He has accompanied tours to many archaeological sites around the Mediterranean and North Africa. He is also an accredited lecturer for The Arts Society. He took early retirement from the British Museum to devote more time to writing and travelling.George Hart will be on the following tour dates: 23 September to 1 October 2020
Tour Extensions
If you would like to spend some time in Malta before embarking the MS Serenissima we are offering a two night stay at a centrally located hotel enabling you to explore Valletta and the surrounding area.
The Itinerary
Day 1 London to Malta.
Fly by scheduled flight. On arrival transfer to our hotel for an overnight stay and spend the remainder of the day at leisure. Meet tonight for a welcome dinner in the hotel.
Day 2 Valletta.
After breakfast in the hotel we will embark on a city tour of Valletta, the 16th century "Fortress City" built by the Knights of St John. Our morning tour will include the highlights of Valletta with its stunning views across the harbour from the Barakka Gardens. We will explore Merchants Street containing the surviving auberges built by the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, together with the palace where Napoleon Bonaparte is believed to have stayed in 1798. Our final stop will be at St John's Cathedral. The afternoon and evening are free for independent exploration.
Day 3 Mdina.
Enjoy time at leisure before we check out of the hotel in the late morning and transfer to Mdina. Originally given the name of "Citta Nobile", the city is now known as the "Silent City". Mdina is Phoenician in origin and was the fortified capital of the island before the arrival of the Knights. We will have lunch in one of the restaurants and transfer to the MS Serenissima moored in Valletta.
Prices per person based on double occupancy
13 to 15 September 2020 • 21 to 23 September 2020 Category Price Twin £545 Single £795
Price Includes: Two nights hotel accommodation with breakfast, tours as described, lunch on day 3, dinner on day 1, Tour Manager, gratuities, transfers.
Not Included: Travel insurance.
Also of Interest
Sicily & the Barbary Coast
Discover the Roman sites of Sicily & North Africa aboard the MS Serenissima
Itinerary at a glance
- Malta / Piazza Armerina / Agrigento / Trapani / Cagliari / Bejaia / Algiers / Tlemcen / Tangiers / Casablanca
Treasures of Sicily
A circumnavigation of Sicily with Guest Speaker Rear Admiral John Lippiett aboard the MS Monet
Itinerary at a glance
- Valletta / Piazza Armerina / Agrigento / Valley of the Temples / Mazaro del Vallo / Trapani / Palermo / Cefalu / Messina / Syracuse / Catania
La Dolce Vita
A voyage from Malta to Bari aboard Sea Cloud II with Guest Speaker Dr Steve Kershaw
Sea Cloud II
Sea Cloud II
Itinerary at a glance
- Malta / Agrigento / Valley of the Temples / Syracuse / Taormina / Crotone / Taranto / Otranto / Monopoli / Bari
Voyage to the Land of Gods & Heroes
A voyage from Bari to Athens aboard Sea Cloud II with Guest Speaker Dr Steve Kershaw
Sea Cloud II
Sea Cloud II
Itinerary at a glance
- Bari / Apollonia / Butrint / Preveza / Olympia / Kakamata / Monemvasia / Nafplio / Athens
Voyage from Mallorca to Malta
A journey of discovery from Mallorca to Malta including an exploration of Sicily
Hebridean Sky
Hebridean Sky
Itinerary at a glance
- Palma / Mahon /Alghero / L'Ile Rousse / Calvi / POrtoferraio / Bonifacio / Naples / Trapani / Palermo / Taormina / Syracuse / Not / Ragusa / Agrigento / Valley of the Temples / Piazza Armerina / Malta
Wonders of Sicily & the Amalfi Coast
An exploration of Sicily & the Amalfi Coast aboard the MS Serenissima
Itinerary at a glance
- Valletta / Porto Empedocle / Piazza Armerina / Noto / Ragusa / Syracuse / Taormina / Lipari / Stromboli / Palermo / Amalfi / Positano / Naples
Sicilian Odyssey
A voyage from the Bay of Naples to Malta including an exploration of Sicily aboard the MS Hebridean Sky
Hebridean Sky
Hebridean Sky
Itinerary at a glance
- Naples / Trapani / Palermo / Taormina / Syracusa / Noto / Ragusa / Agrigento / Valley of the Temples / Piazza Armerina / Malta
Passage to Morocco
A voyage from Sicily to Morocco including Algeria aboard the MS Hebridean Sky with Guest Speaker Chris Bradley
Hebridean Sky
Hebridean Sky
Itinerary at a glance
- Valletta / Agrigento / Valley of the Temples / Trapani / Cagliari / Bejaia / Algiers / Ghazaouet / Tangier / Casablanca
Passage to Puglia & Beyond
A voyage from Malta to Split aboard the MS Serenissima with Guest Speaker, Ernie Rea
Itinerary at a glance
- Valletta / Syracuse / Noto / Crotone / Taranto / Otranto / Lecce / Monopoli / Kotor / Split
Book with Confidence
Speak to one of our advisors on 020 7752 0000


text:
Hey guys,
I'm new to java programming, and look forward to some help with my java applet here. I've tried to follow some guides, i might have just stuck my nose too far ahead for my skill level, but can you help me out?
Im trying to receive Local and Public IP address, by running a web applet.
The code goes:
import java.applet.Applet; import java.net.*; import java.util.*; import java.io.*; public class GetIP extends Applet { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println("Test print"); try { System.out.println("Local IP: " + InetAddress.getLocalHost().getHostAddress()); } catch (Exception ex) { System.out.println("Error: " + ex.getMessage()); } try { String url = "http://vallentinsource.com/globalip.php"; BufferedReader br = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(new URL(url).openStream())); String receive = br.readLine(); System.out.println("PublicIP: " + receive); } catch (Exception ex) { System.out.println("Error: " + ex.getMessage()); } } }