text:
Jonesing for an update
Ned confirmed just a few minutes ago that the Jones deal is done pending a physical, which will probably be on Tuesday. He explained how this had gained steam from Monday when they arrived and was finalized last night, right before the news broke by the LA writers who were on site here. I was in our suite when it all went down and it's fair to say that there was quite a buzz of excitement about all of this.
Some key points from his talk with the media:
He said that this doesn't necessarily mean we'll have to move an outfielder and he likes the depth it creates in the outfield. He also said it allows us to be more focused in our quest for pitching.
He also said this makes him a little bit more comfortable about the in-house options at third base. If something comes up that is a really great option, we would do it, but pitching is the greater priority.
He praised all of our staff in getting this done and the McCourts for being willing to make a move of this nature.
He was asked about Don Mattingly's effect on Jones and he said he has been very impressed with Don and the fact that he came down here from Evansville and has fit in immediately with everyone at the team. He's looking forward to seeing him work with our players, especially the young guys.
Ned reached out to Juan Pierre last night to talk about how this affects him, but wasn't able to reach him. And when asked if he regrets signing Pierre, he said he absolutely does not. He can't re-write history, but he implored everyone to look back at the circumstances that we were in when we signed him (only one outfielder with more than a month of experience in the Majors – Ethier). He pointed out that Juan did exactly what we expected him to do and that he has never said that Juan was a franchise player. He's a very good player on a winning team and the reason we didn't win last year was not Juan Pierre's fault.
He continued to say that as a team, we're not of a mind to give up three or four players for one star pitcher or player. He reiterated that we're not going to do something just to do it, but that we've zeroed in on two or three pitchers and will see if anything can happen. Obviously Kuroda remains a viable option.
On a side note, Chan Ho Park's non-roster invite is now formally done. Also, we did not take anyone in the Rule 5 draft, but we did lose Wesley Wright to the Astros, so he'll have to stay on their big league roster all year or be offered back to us for $25,000.
From what it seems like by your comments and the various articles I've read today, most people see this as a great deal for the Dodgers. Andruw obviously has the power we need (10 straight years of 25-plus homers) and is a Gold Glover (10 times over, two shy of Mays and Clemente's record). And the bottom line is, this deal seems to have gotten done because Andruw wanted to be a Dodger and that's a very cool thing to hear.
If you're a Dodger fan, I've got to imagine today is a very good day. Now it's back to Los Angeles…
589 Comments
This is a great signing. An outfield of Jones ,Kemp and Eithier is a good offensive and defensive outfield. Either trade Pierre or keep him for what he's good for , a pinch runner and the team has improved. Jones at his worst is an upgrade over Pierre.
Jones is a good signing, esepcially at two years. If the Dodgers keep Pierre, Kemp, Either, it gives the Dodgers a lot of flexablity on the bench.
Thanks Josh!
Jones is a great pick up.
We've got 3 great starting pitchers for sure, so let's keep our BEST outfielders and take down the NL West and the rest of the NL!
Great Job Ned, that was #1 on my X-mas list. Don't want to be greedy but I'd love to get the rest…Sign Kuroda, Move JP, Leave 3rd alone (for now), and call Jeff Kent and tell him to get off his hog!
I am less enthused about the signing than most Dodgers fans. I am glad the Dodgers did not cave on the third year demand but I have to wonder why the Dodgers had to pay $36.2 for two years when there are little, if any, accounts of interest from other teams. Who was driving up the price?
Colletti said he was prepared to sit back and wait it out but it sounds as if the minute Jones dropped the third year, Colletti was given a blank check to get it done.
I've been telling my friends the Dodgers should wait until the Mitchell report comes out before signing Andruw to see if his value goes down. His homers sure have now that he's off the roids.
I'm just sick about the Dodgers trading Kemp for Bedard or any other pitcher whose first name isn't Johan. I hope this does not happen.
Jones wasn't a roid user. He's HR's came after there was testing. The only thing I'm disappointed with is that they didn't lock him up for 5-6 years. After his contract is up he'll get paid somewhere else. It's ashame that the money the Dodgers have and they wouldn't lock up the best CF in the game. We got a 2 year rental when we could have locked him up for a long time. But with that being said I'm glad that we atleast have him for 2 years. Now if we get rid of Pierre and sign Silva we'll be the class of the NL.
I agree with fliegel but also with legend. Jones' best years were in the "steroid era" and they have been dropping off ever since testing started…makes you wonder doesn't it. If he CAN regain his form the Dodgers need to keep Ethier for left and Kemp for right and figure out something to do with Pierre. As for 3rd, why not see what you have in spring training, I would hate to see them trade LaRoche and have him turn out to be something as good or better then his brother. The Dodgers already overpaid for Jones, not sense in overpaying in trade for Santana, Bedard, or Haren.
No Pieere in Left, unless it's LEFT OUT!
Another horrid sign by ned colletti-nomar, pierre, hillenbrand, wolf, schmidt,….andruw! another underachiever that we bailed out with a huge contract.
what about the youth movement? thanks for blocking kemp's 35 homers this year. hopefully andruw will ride the pine on the Dl for most of the year so we wpnt all be vomiting.
And all you other ****** who are ready to cry with joy, LOOK AT HIS NUMBERS LAST YEAR! Kemp and ethier had worse numbers?????? nope…
This is the best sign Ned could have done. He should have locked him up for 5-6 years. He's the best CF in baseball. His defense is far superior to Kemp and Eithers combined. Great move by Ned just not enough years.
Ethier and Kemp need to play everyday on the Dodgers. To trade either one of them would be a big mistake. With the signing of Jones, that should put Pierre on the bench, which really isn't fair to him, either. Please trade Pierre to eliminate the problems associated with not playing him or worse yet, not playing Ethier or Kemp everyday.
I really don't think it was necessary to sign Jones for that kind of money, but at least it's only for two years. That should give Kemp time to develop into the superstar we think he will be and take over CF for years to come. Hopefully that was part of the plan in only signing Jones for two years.
im not sure i'd call Jones the best CF in the game. Siezmore? Beltran? Ichiro? ALso, lock him up for 5-6 years? He would have only taken that many years if we would have offered at least 18 per. He wants to build up value and get that big contract. Giving him that big contract now would have been a huge mistake.
Can we have a sign in centerfield that reads:
I think it's a GREAT fit!
Go BLUE!
his defense, according to baseball prospectus, has been in decline for a few years. not the same range.
great signing in my opinion. best think ned could have done.
5-6 years? HOLY COW Cameron, I hope you are kidding! They are paying him the highest contract the Dodgers have given a player and he's on the downside of his career now. He is a risk of falling off the face of the planet (offensively AND defensively) which is obviously higher for him than maybe any other player his age given the lack of rest he got playing a tough position throughout his 20's and the well documented conditioning issues that can hurt a guy in his early-mid 30's. If the Dodgers gave Andruw a 5 or 6 year deal, halfway through the contract we'd all be saying, "I'm sure glad Ned got fired. What was he thinking giving Andruw Jones 6 years?!"
Jones had 51 HRs in '05 (led MLB) and 41 HRs in '06, how is that a drop off in numbers? Last year he played with a pretty bad elbow injury and still put up 26, 6 more than any Dodger. By the way his 94 RBI would have led our club as well.
You are jumping to conclusions, if we trade Pierre, the Jones signing is great. He is still arguably the best defensive CF in the game and gives us a legit power stick. Don't judge a player by batting average, it's a pretty overrated stat. Don't pass judgment on a guy that battled through injuries and had a sub-par year, that shows me that he's a gamer. You have to look at the big picture, he's still only 30 years-old.
A wee bit expensive, but I'm really impressed with Ned's ability to keep the length of the contract down. Great news.
Pierre's biggest problem is his fielding, I think that problem is solved if he goes to left. Anyone can play left, look at Manny. Ive been on plenty of baseball teams, and the worst fielder usually plays 1st or left. His bat was not the problem. He hit a solid .293 and 64 SB's. He should bat second this year, since his OBP is not as high as Furcal's.
Yeah I'm serious. The guy is now where near the end of his career. He had one bad year and everybody goes ape **** about it. He's the best defender in the game when it comes to CFers. This past year was the best thing that could have happened to him. He'll work harder now to prove he's the best. Mark my word, in 2 years everybody will be wishing he'd signed for 5-6 years.
.293 BA, sure, but he had the OBP and SLG of a pitcher. Pierre's biggest problem is his bat. Manny is in LF for the world champ red sox because of his bat. Pierre should play Left Bench because of his bat.
if Juan Pierre is your left fielder, you need a new left fielder.
Since 1901, the lowest adjusted OPS for a regular left fielder (minimum 502 plate appearances/140 games), according to Baseball-Reference.com, is Luis Polonia's 75 for the 1993 California Angels.
Juan Pierre's adjusted OPS last season for the Dodgers: 75.
P.S.: It has been 94 years since a left fielder went homerless for a season.
Ethier is a better player.
Pierre is as good as gone. Nothing in Ned's past moves makes me think he will keep him now.
Ned reached out to Juan Pierre last night to talk about how this affects him, but wasn't able to reach him. And when asked if he regrets signing Pierre, he said he absolutely does not. He can't re-write history, but he implored everyone to look back at the circumstances that we were in when we signed him (only one outfielder with more than a month of experience in the Majors – Ethier). He pointed out that Juan did exactly what we expected him to do and that he has never said that Juan was a franchise player. He's a very good player on a winning team and the reason we didn't win last year was not Juan Pierre's fault.
Ned must have very low expectations. Pierre certainly contributed his share to the Dodgers downfall last year. GET RID OF HIM AT ANY COST. DON'T NEGATE THE POSITIVE MOVE BY PLAYING PIERRE IN LF OR KEEPING HIM ON THE TEAM.
cameron, that may be true to years from now, however right now that was not the best thing to do. We can always resign him if he regains form 2 years from now, it wasn't worth locking him up now. Historically, players decline after 30. It wasn't a risk we needed to take.
I dont know any pitcher who has a .331 OBP or a .351 SLG. Penny's OBP was the highest at .279. I never understood the Pierre bashing. Yes he led the team in outs, but thats because he led the team in at bats by a long shot. He will give you a solid BA and when hes on base he will make the pitcher lose concentration on the batter because of his speed.
Brad Penny was a better hitter than Pierre last year, but nonetheless, he needs to go because he's a crappy fielder and LF is no place for a guy who has no power.
But hey, if the Dodgers need a "great character guy" to take in their mail or feed the dog while they're out, then I'm all for him staying.
A .331 OBP from the leadoff spot is not very good. Especially combined with his poor defense.
What does it matter if left field is no place for a power guy? His game is his speed not his power. Out power bat is now in center. How can you say Penny was a better hitter than Pierre?
I said bat him 2nd because Furcal's OBP is better.
Pierre needs to go at any cost. Ethier is a much better left fielder and a better hitter.
We don't need you messing this up by singing Pierre's praises right now.
Do you really advocate Pierre playing over Ethier or Kemp?
The pitchers won't have to throw a stinking shutout every game next year if we keep our best hitting team together.
The risk of signing Jones for 5-6 years, rather than the 2 years we gave him, is much greater than the rewards of a longer contract. We are now afforded options. Let him walk or resign him.
What Im I messing up? I have a right to my opinion. Ethier is a 6,7, or 8 hitter. Pierre is a top of the order hitter. Ethier had 0 SB's. Pierre had 64. Every good team should have a guy whos a threat on the bases.
Totally agree Dodgerdude.
Cameron I am from DC why do you ask? Anyway I think ned did a superb job to get him for 2 yrs and someone asked why 38 mil…he overpaid to get the shorter commitment…if and I hope this is not true Jones regresses to last year again we are out in a hurry…My belief is that the elbow injury was a lot worse than he told anyone…I saw him swing and miss and he nearly fell to his knees in a September game. He, like Pierre plays everyday and hard…he will hit home runs and drive in people unlike Pierre….defensively we do not even have to have this discussion.
I agree Pierre is well over paid, but is that his fualt or Ned's?
rick, we have that with Furcal and a top of the order guy like Pierre is something we do not need (Ethier would do much better as a 2 hole guy). A 2 hitter doesn't need lightning speed as much as a respectable OBP and contact rate, Ethier provides both and Pierre does not.
Contact rate? He was the hardest hitter to strike out? He always makes contact, and thats the most important thing in a 2 hitter, because the hit and run is a great option.
Rickcindy Ethier would be a great 2 hitter he is patient makes godd contact and hits the to all fields…with extra base power…we do have threats furcal, martin, kemp. Not only that but a manager can put people in motion and creates opportunities to help the slower guys. We have people who will take the extra base and go 1st to 3rd. That is why I love Scioscia he does not wait for the 3 run jack he gets people in motion…not only the jackrabbits.
Pierre also leads MLB in grounding out to the pitcher.
Top of the order guys are supposed to get on base at high rates. Pierre does not do that at all.
good point dodgerdude
trade pierre!
Look, if Pierre bats 1st, he'll be the worst lead off hitter in baseball with that .330 OBP. If he bats 2nd, he'll lead the league in sac bunts (which equal outs) Don't you rather have a guy hitting 2nd that can move a guy over without having to make outs?
rick, now you're really splitting hairs. Yes Pierre is tough to strike out, but he rarely works the count (which is important for a 2 guy) and the most important thing from the 2 hole is OBP. To be a successful table-setter, you need to get on base at an above average rate.
For me the best line up would be:
Ethier in LF and batting 2nd would be very nice. Ethier is also a great #8 hitter as he is one of the only players we have with the patience and bat control to succeed in that spot.
Just replace Pierre with Ethier and it is an even better lineup.
wow… u really do prefer Pierre over Ethier?
Ethier has better defense, power, patience, and same BA. Only thing Pierre beats him out on is speed, which is hard to use when you're never on base.
i like the signing, just when i thought that ned was not going to do a thing. i honestly do not think that the dodgers will hold on to all the OF's they have right now, remember that we have repko as our 4ht OF. so i hope they get rid of pierre, but if not we better get a real good pitcher like santana,bedard or haren in return for anyone else!
He could also turn alot of those sac bunts into hits. I just feel Torre would have alot more options with Furcal and Pierre at the top rather than Furcal and Ethier
I was just giving you a hard time.
Pierre doesn't strike out much because pitchers aren't afraid to let him hit it since he makes more outs than anyone in baseball and there's no fear of him hitting one out.
Is it Pierre's fault that Ned signed him? No. Does that mean he should play everyday? No.
My lineup:
I'd like to toss in my 2 cents by joining the chorus to move Juan Pierre.
If we keep him in left, it will hurt the team. Historically, you build defense up the middle and have power in the corners – both OF and IF. Right now, Kent is the defensive liability up the middle, and he's not that bad. By playing an OF of Ethier, Jones and Kemp every day we will realize the most production.
I join those of you who appreciate Pierre the Man. He's a hard worker and good in the clubhouse, but there's no room for him in the starting lineup anymore. Sending Kemp or Ethier off in a trade to make room for him makes us worse in another vein. I've always been of the opinion that you shouldn't trade an everyday player for a starting pitcher. No matter how good Santana or whoever might be, he can only win 32 games in a 5-man rotation. An everyday player like Ethier or (especially) Kemp has a chance to win the game for you every day. Granted, he's not going to. But at least he's out there. Not to mention that it's going to take more than Kemp to land a big arm. Kershaw might well become the Santana of 2010, and it will be sad to watch Pedro Martinez go into the Hall of Fame without a Dodger hat on his head.
dodgerdude, I like!!!
I perfer having Furcal on 3rd and Martin on 1st with no outs and Loney coming up than Furcal on 2nd with 1 out and Loney/Kemp coming up.
Can you imagine how many singles to left that will be stretched into doubles with Pierre playing there. I would be thinking 2nd base all the way out of the batters box on a hit to left if I'm the batter.
jhall do you still have the wheels to make it to 2nd? just kidding i absolutely agree with you.
I'm 50 and would have a good chance against Pierre's lollipop arm. LOL
Or hearing Vinny…
Lazy fly ball to left, shouldn't be trouble. It's not deep enough to score the runner from third….AND THE RUNNER GOES AND……
The fans deserve the best product you can put on the field each day. That does not include Pierre. Good guy but not a very good outfield option for us.
Having Ethier's arm in left stops alot of runners from scoring from 2nd on a base hit also.
Baseball Prospectus chimes in:
"One year or two, this is a fantastic deal for the Dodgers, who get back-end-of-peak years from a Hall of Fame player without committing to his decline phase. Jones will bounce back in 2008, and he'll be a seven-win player over the two years of the deal. That's an enormous addition for a team that has been shooting itself in the foot for too long. What it means for Ethier or Matt Kemp is something that can be hashed out, but again, the player in the way isn't Jones, it's Pierre, who was a bad signing at the time, and remains so today. The Dodgers have an opportunity to show just how well they understand sunk costs by relegating Pierre to a fourth outfielder's role, to which he'd be reasonably suited. It would also give us a chance to test the whole "character" framework, to see if the fourth-best outfielder on the roster is able to accept that he, in fact, is that, and sublimate his desire to play more for the good of the team. That's leadership, right?
I love this contract. It will be far and away the smartest thing any team does this winter, and it pushes the Dodgers up a little bit closer to the Diamondbacks in the 2008 NL West race."
jungar, you nailed it. A medium fly to LF is a for sure SF if Pierre is out there. Let's not forget something hit down the line…now we're talking doubles into triples. It doesn't matter how fast Pierre's little legs get him to the ball if it takes a 3 man relay to get it back in.
Good man, bad player.
legend baseball wrote,"I've been telling my friends the Dodgers should wait until the Mitchell report comes out before signing Andruw to see if his value goes down. His homers sure have now that he's off the roids.")
jjfrates wrote,"Jones' best years were in the "steroid era" and they have been dropping off ever since testing started…makes you wonder doesn't it."
(Before my response a short disclaimer: To some degree practically EVERYBODY who has played in the last 15-20 years is at least minimally suspect of having used steroids.)
These steroid allegations against Andruw are not only unfounded, but the facts of Jones career are about as well-aligned with him NOT being a steroid user as one could possibly hope for.
He averaged about 35 homers per year from 1998 to 2004 — right in the heart of the steroid era and when Jones was between 21 and 27 years old. Had he been using steroids he probably would have hit many more.
Then, in 2005 and 2006, at ages 28 and 29 he had his two best power years, hitting 51 and 41 HR respectively. The late 20s/early 30s is exactly when one would expect a player to peak. Jones is in perfect sync with historical patterns.
If anything Jones, like many others, is much more likley a VICTIM of the Steroid Era. First because his accomplishments have been overshadowed by actual steroid users. Second because he is subject to the cloud of doubt that hangs (however unfairly) over every player of the era.
Andruw Jones and the many others who resisted the temptation of steroids are hardly to blame for being born into the Steroid Era, but rather to be admired for their accomplishments within the law while others were shining brighter with their cheating ways.
There are probably worse options than Pierre in left, but for the life of me I can't think of one right now.
Shawn, I read that you were from the east coast and was just wondering where you were from.
Did the Dodgers lose Tsao? Hope we invite him to Spring Training if he is healthy.
Andruw Jones was once a top prospect, and then evolved into a top player. Not saying he's innocent of steroid use, but at age 30 I can't imagine he'll crash for another 4-5 years.
cameron thats cool, are you from the east coast?
Last add on Pierre.
Pierre's steals are the equivalent to adding about 14 total bases. That bumnps his Slg % from .353 to .374 and gives him a .705 OPS. He probably gets a bit of a further bump in value from his NON STEALS baserunning. Per the Bill James handbook, his Baserunning additional bases above average, (1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, 1st to home) was 18. So if you want to quantify it in OPS terms, you could probably stretch him out to the equivalent of a .715 OPS batter. The average major league centerfielder had a .763 OPS last year.
So even if you jump through hoops to give the guy as much credit as possible for his baserunning, and put it into OPS terms, he's STILL 50 points below the average for his position.
BTW, avg OPS for a left fielder is .793
Yeah, from the not so big town of Waynesboro,Ga. 20 miles south of Augusta.
Pierre batting second makes even less sense sense than Pierre batting first.
Pierre has absolutely no power in his bat (just 32 extra base hits in 162 games last year despite his speed). So he's rarely driving in Furcal from first. Even if Furcal is on second, the outfield can play so shallow on Pierre, Furcal won't score from there either. And Pierre doesn't have enough pop to even drive in a guy from third with a sacrifice fly.
If Ned keeps Pierre, and Torre plays him and insists on keeping him in the top part of the order, it makes much more sense for him to bat first than second.
not real excited about the chan ho signing to a minor league deal. I just hope he does not have a great camp. We do not need anymore Ericksons, Seles they blow and we do not need to be subjected to the beatings.
solid info jungar. that doesn't factor in his defense either.
Augusta have you ever had the opportunity to play it.
Where does Ned go from here….Santana would like nice in Dodger Blue, but I do not want to give up the farm.
anyone but Loiaza (silva maybe)
this is not a bad starting 5. Elbert or Mcdonald takes Lowes spot when he becomes a FA or we ship his **** out.
Chan Ho opted out of that deal.
Great stuff Jungar.
Really I read that after the rule 5 draft today he was to sign a deal…is this new info that he will not be signing…thank you Jesus.
jungar, how did you figure that Pierre's steals added 14 bases total?
Never had the chance to play Augusta. It's too hard to get the opportunity. I don't have near enough money to have that happen. I have been there though and the TV just doesn't do the course justice.
Ho info came out a couple of days ago. However, he could have changed his mind.
Josh–Thanks for the update, and the statements that are geared at putting our collective hot stove concerns to rest.
This is an excellent move. A short deal–at a good price. If Jones is back to form by June 2009, extend him. If not, hopefully Matt Kemp will have learned the position.
I heard about in KFWB this morning just after I woke up, and was immediately excited. Then, they said that this makes Matt Kemp expendable, and wanted to go back to the nightmare I was having.
DO NOT TRADE MATT KEMP. Jungar seems optimistic that Ned won't do such a foolish thing, and I really want him to be right, but it's funny that he's more up on Ned doing the right thing than I am.
We now have 4 everyday outfielders, and the three best are Jones, Kemp, and Ethier (probably in that order). The follow-up to this could be good, bad, ugly, or a nightmare.
If we follow-up by dealing Pierre or having him as the Fourth Outfielder, it's a good move. Like everyone says, we like Juan as a person (and I don't blame Ned as much for the signing), but now he is the 4th best outfielder on the team.
If we move Pierre to Left, Jungar is right that we need a new left fielder. If it results in moving JP to left, it's bad. If we package Ethier to get a starting pitcher, it might be worth it, but Pierre in left is not good.
If we continue to platoon Kemp and Ethier in right, it is ugly. Both guys should be playing every day.
The nightmare scenario is if they move Pierre to left, Ethier to right, and send a potential superstar (possible current superstar level player) in a deal. Nightmare. In two years, Andruw Jones will be eligible for free agency again, but Matt Kemp will still be one year away from arbitration–think about that. You just can't deal him.
I am hoping that Jungar is right, and that what Josh is saying (no need to deal anyone) pans out, and I trust Torre will put the best team on the field. This signing gives us the potential to be the clear best in the NL:
Around the horn:
Kuroda (???)
and, if anything happens, we need one of the following to pan out:
Scott Elbert
Greg Miller
Hong Chih Kuo
Jonathan Meloan
James McDonald
Clayton Kershaw
and we still have three serviceable guys in:
DJ Houlton
Eric Stults
Mark Hendrickson (admittedly, less clear if Hendrickson can really be a starter, and seems now better as a reliever, but it's possible).
Would I like to add a Santana to that group. Absolutely. Or even a Bedard or Haren. But with that depth, the odds are in our favor that this staff will be excellent, if not this year, then next year and for several years. In other words, no reason to give up great hitters.
new Park article on dodgers.com
I guess he changed his mind again.
dodgerdude–I wonder too where Jungar gets his numbers, but have learned that they are right.
martinloneykemp has to be thrilled with the signing.
Also, just to focus on the positive (and not the fear that I continue to have, and which I hope will be assuaged), compare last year's porjected outfield (Gonzo/Pierre/Ethier) to this year's (Ethier/Jones/Kemp). Last year, Ethier had the best arm and the second best coverage speed in the group. This year, Ethier has the worst arm and the worst speed. That's not a knock on Ethier, a guy I like and who has a terriffic arm and good/average coverage speed. But if you're a Dodger pitcher, you have to like the defense in the outfield.
(The infield is not so bad either–Loney is as slick as it gets, LaRoche and Nomar are both decent defenders, and I expect Tony Abreu will get a lot of late inning opportunities at 2B).
Martin is the heart and soul of this team. I hope the Dodgers get a decent backup catcher as I believe a day off every week will make Martin even better. He kind of ran out of gas late last year. Plus, if we want him productive for many years to come, he will need to rest more often. Catcher is probably the most physically demanding position and can wear out even a young guy very quickley.
I agree the pitchers just took a big sigh of relief that to know a ball hit to left center will not have bozo i mean gonzo/pierre trying to field it…If Pierre does end up in left hopefully his speed will work out better there and it is a shorter throw to 3rd base to cut down 1st to 3rd…but hopefully Ethier/Jones?kemp.
that outfield will save .5 off everyones era conservatively.
I think Torre will feel more at ease resting Martin knowing Pierre is not in the lineup. Last year, Martin was so integral to the offense with Pierre, Nomar, Gonzo and the like playing all the time. If the Dodgers lineup projects like most here think it should, Martin can rest knowing the team will pick him up.
Things just keep getting better for the Dodgers – Padres just resigned Bradley.
Very good point scott.
Agree Jhall, which is why he shouldnt bat 2. Ethier and LaRoche both have great potential in the 2 hole… Power to both gaps (naturally leads to HR;s) with a good eye. I like the second spot to have some pop….
Pierre is really an all out joke of a major league outfielder that only makes anyone who ever played the game at any level scream at the tv.
"LA could look to deal Kemp for starting pitcher" NO, NO, NO!!! If signing Jones leads to trading Kemp, then the Jones signing will prove to be yet another horrible move by the Dodgers. The only deal that should go down in the outfield now is to trade Pierre. That is a very necessary move for the sake of the team and must be accomplished!!!
Trade Pierre!!! go to dodger thoughts and sign the letter to Ned! NOW!
i agree with redfox; do not trade ethier or kemp and keep them in the OF with jones. if we trade someone it should be pierre, absorb some of the salary and dump him.
Stop whing if tradeing Kemp brings Santa or Behard I'm all for it. You guys act like Kemp the next great thing. He is not.
Santana,my bad…
If you read every article about this deal you'll more then likely see something along the lines of "Dodgers fill gaping hole in center" or "Dodgers fill gaping hole in lineup". It's obvious that Juan Pierre is the gaping hole in center, the gaping hole in the lineup and the gaping hole in the roster. This signing makes no sense unless the gaping hole Jones was signed to fill was gone.
You don't fill a pot hole and then drill a new pot hole to the left of the on you just filled up. Come one Ned. Pull your head out of your ar se and get Pierre out of here.
Looks like Kemp will be the one traded. Ned basicly saying Pirre is staying.
if they can get SANTA for kemp then i would do it! LOL
what the heck! Ethier/Jones/Kemp is the recipe to success…
dont trade Kemp and ethier!
trade JP! and its all good!
if he;s keeping Pierre looks like we gotta start the Fire Ned campaign again.
Ok guys.. Enough already with the Pierre bashing. Every day I come on here and read the comments and they are such hate filled nonsense… Pierre must go, he must die, take him out back and shoot him in the head, he is the worst player imaginable…. ENOUGH… He isn't that bad.. geez.. he is certainly not the reason the team faltered last season and he is not the gaping hole in our roster. He had a decent season, he did the job he was signed for. That he isn't the player you want him to be doesn't mean he didn't do what he was expected to do. His numbers were in line with his career averages. He was the only speed we had in our lineup for most of last season and it was obvious that having him on base, and he was on base lots at the end of the season, made oposing pitchers nervous and made guys like Loney and Kemp hitting behind him more likely to get good pitches.
This is ridiculous people.. Enough with the hate.. can't you guys ever talk about something other than your dislike of this one player?
trade pierre!
maybe ill just post this every hour on the hour.
A trade for Santana would not help overcome Pierre's shortcomings. Get rid of him Ned.
I think i'm gonna have to trade max_power, jspelk and the other hate mongers to the Giants message boards where they will be more at home.
spanner, I suggest that you read the latest post from Jon Weisman at Dodger Thoughts. The link is on the left towards the top of the page if you've never visited.
Also, there is nowhere in that story to suggest Pierre will be staying and/or playing left field for the Dodgers in 2008. Ned has been very hush on Pierre. Any suggestion Pierre will be playing left field has been made by the media. With that said:
Spanner, I think you should go here from now on. These fans share your stupidity. Wrink and rickcindy I suggest you follow suit.
Spanner, hate to tell you. Yea, he is that bad.
I don't read Ned's remarks as saying that "Pierre is staying"…. he's trying to defend the Pierre signing taken in context of the situation that existed at the time (Drew opt-out, etc.)I will be very surprised if Pierre is in a Dodger uniform come April. One thing about Ned is he learns from his mistakes.
In my opinion, Kemp is going nowhere but right field at Dodger stadium. No possible way he gets traded for any starting pitcher- he's the CF star of the future.
I'm most excited about the Jones signing because Ned won't feel the urgency of upgrading for a big bat at 3rd. If Cabrera could be had that was fine, but as of now, Laroche/Nomar will work just fine until Andy develops into the great player that we all know he can become if given the opportunity. Talk of Rolen, Hall et al was just smoke. Next major development is the signing of Kuroda, the trading of JP and we're done.
alex is right!!!
i didnt see ned saying JP will stay!
he just said he doesnt regret signing him coz its like last season there is only one player in our OF who has an experience(ethier=1 year).
Josh already wrote it at the top!
If Ned keeps Pierre and trades an Ethier or Kemp, he compounds the original mistake. Eat part of his salary and dump him now and you end up with a net gain. It's alot like the stock market. When you buy a stock you set a stop-loss around 20% below what you bought it for. If it tanks, you only lose 20%, minimizing the damage. Your winners will far exceed your loses. That is the position we are in with Pierre. He is a detriment to this team and we should take our losses now.
sorry i want to actually win games this year, and playing three good outfielders (imagine that!) will help in that endeavour.
if u really want Kemp to be traded then you can go to SANTA and make ur wish!
i dont see any reason why the dodgers need to trade Kemp! he will stay! he needs to stay!!!
So, he "did what he was expected to do". Well, that's why almost all the experts and fans alike said the Pierre signing was terrible BEFORE he even played 1 game for the Dodgers.
Offensively, Pierre is limited, but if he was a good fielder, most fans could handle him in the lineup since his speed adds something different – although different doesn't mean better. The fact is that Pierre is a terrible outfielder by most standards and hampers OUR pitchers with is defense more than he does opposing pitchers with his speed.
Did you not watch runners running wild on him last year? Have you ever been a pitcher? Do you know what that does to a pitcher's psyche?
Apparently not.
Right on!!
Welcome to Mr. Jones. A solid major league upgrade defensively from Pierre. Even though I believe he's getting too much money for a 2 year contract, it's a step in the right direction. Boras strikes again!
However, dealing Kemp for a pitching prospect would be similar to taking 2 steps backward in my opinion. I'm in agreeance to numerous previous posts on this blog which say he should go elsewhere. Granted he lead the team in hits this past season, but his OBP, and arm, or lack thereof are too much of a liability. I don't dislike him as a person. I like his work ethic, and effort he puts in day in & day out, but it's not enough of a contribution to the team. Ethier, Jones, and Kemp will prove to be a premier outfield in the NL.
*Elsewhere as in Pierre!! My bad!!
Sweet lineup!
Is getting Blanton/Harden/Bedard worth it?
in their carrers-
First Pitch BAA(batting avg. against)
Bedard .371
Penny .355
Blanton .319
Harden .280
3-2 count BAA
Penny .248
Harden .210
Blanton .207
Bedard .174
BAA in the 7th inn (after they've seen them a couple ab's)
Penny .265
Bedard .228
Blanton .228
Harden .172
and this is in the AL without having to face any pitchers batting
Obviously, Pierre works hard but just as obviously does not work smart. He should be working on his bunting and running more and try to be more like Brett Butler. Also, get a personal trainer and work on his upper body strength and throwing techniques. He will never have a great arm but it can be improved. Much like basketball players work on their verticle leaps.
I think Kemp is the key. If we could land one of those pitchers with a package not including Kemp, then maybe I do it. But Pierre still sits. Repko is a better OF, as is Young.
jhall, you are so right.
Why is it that Pierre can't improve his arm after all these years in the pro's? No one is asking him to suddenly throw 95, but geez, how about 55?
I am NOT cheering for a team with Juan Pierre in left field. He will be worse than Gonzo, at least Gonzo had an excuse for his crappy throws: He was almost 50 yrs old. Ethier in left Jones in center Kemp in right and the Dodgers outfield is 900% better than last year. Trade Pierre to the White Sox for Joe Crede, both teams get what they need. Chicago gets a center fielder and the Dodgers get a 3rd baseman.
From what I have seen, Pierre just tries to get rid of the ball fast and flicks it. He is usually throwing going back or off his back leg. Hence the high arc lollipop throws with nothing on them. He needs to use his legs and lower body and throw thru the ball. More power and lower arc.
oh, and Johan's #'s for those stats are-
Great pick up but by far not worth 18 mil… That was a terrible offer for Jones. Jones in his 11 years has only hit .275 or better 3 seasons. He is a career .263 hitter and strikes out way to much (never struck out less than 100 times besides his rookie year). Find me another player other than a pitcher batting less than .275 career making at least 13 mil. Not one you will find, but Joes. Leave it to Ned. Not worth 18 million!!!!! Terrible Ned TERRIBLE offer. Yes he is the best CF in the game perhaps but not worth that money. Why not go after Rowand for 12-13 mil leaving you with some money to go after another solid pitcher if needed and at the same time with Rowand you get a good stick and gold glove.
S H I T, for that money why not pay Arod the 9 million more and get a better bat than Jones. By far a better bat than Jones. Yea 9 mil seems like a lot but when you talk Arod you talk about bringing money in, Arod sells and Jones doesnt. Again Im happy Jones is a Dodger but not for that money, not worth it. Ned if you can do something right get rid of Pierre now!
Jrscll, at least you recognize that Pierre must go. Good for you. Mickey Mantle struck out alot too by the way.
trading matt kemp for an above avg. pitcher just because we got jones is stupid. we will have joens for two years and after that he'll be gone and if kemp is gone too…where does that put us? in a position to sign or trade for another drew, or pierre
Colletti on Pierre from Diamond Leung Dodgers Blog by Diamond Leung
Juan Pierre's agent came to the Winter Meetings hoping to speak with the Dodgers about his client's status, and the meetings finished with Ned Colletti leaving Pierre a voicemail and e-mail to inform him of the team's agreement with Andruw Jones to play center field. Colletti then defended the signing of Pierre, who went for five years, $44 million. I don't regret it. You can't look back on what you do like that. It's not fair to anything. You tell me what you would do when we were sitting there with one outfielder, Andre Ethier, who had played four months of big league baseball and no other outfielder. It's easy to go back and re-write history. I don't have the opportunity to go back and re-write history nor do I feel I need to. It is what it is, and we did what we had to do. We signed a player that's a great guy and a guy that comes to play every day and a great influence throughout the clubhouse. You know what you're getting. 195 hits, 60-something stolen bases. The way the 2007 Dodgers performed is not Juan Pierre's fault. Asked if it was the salary that was driving up expectations about Pierre, Colletti said, "Check it out on some blog, I don't know." Colletti later claimed never to have read a single blog entry in his lifetime.
I guess that means that Ned has never read this blog Josh (in fact, his tone even suggests that he has disdain for blogs in general). Oh well, maybe he'll come around eventually.
Andruw will average $18 million a year just like Hunter and he is by far a better player than Hunter. Nearly every player in the game is overpaid but Andruw got the going rate so Ned didn't overpay for him. And you guys need to stop talking about the money part. The Dodger have just as much money as the Red Sox and Mets the only difference is that the Dodgers won't spend any of it. When the Dodgers payroll hits $150 million then talk about saving money to get more players.
jaygee Do you honestly think Chicago would go for that? Unless they are seriously impaired, or under the influence of some mind/thought altering subsatance, it would never happen as a straight up deal. It's a no brainer they would want something else to add to the trade. My suggestions would be throw in Hernandez, Hendrickson, or both to go along with him!! LOL
I think trading Kemp for another pitcher is totally stupid. I want to see what Kemp can do for a full year in right field. He can hit 35 home runs if left to play all year. This man has power. I'll be very disapointed to start a Dodger season without Kemp. Everyone needs to let Colletti know we want Kemp in a Dodger uniform for years to come.
The way the 2007 Dodgers performed is not Juan Pierre's fault
no, not entirely, but he's a big part of it. Ned is so defensive of pierre but hopefully he's trying to preserve his trade value.
Get rid of Pierre now. We don't need him. Keep Kemp
I might, with considerable trepidation, trade Matt Kemp straight up for the best pitcher in the game — Santana, assuming that Santana is locked up for about five years.
The only way I would trade Kemp for Santa is if the fat man was carrying a magically young Jackie Robinson and Sandy Koufax in his bag.
We don't need Joe Crede. Trade Pierre to the Rangers for, Padilla or nothing. We don't need to get anything for him. Just getting him off the roster makes us a better team. Addition by subtraction.
The one thing I'm counting on is Joe Torre not wanting to look like a mindless fool by playing Pierre everyday in LF. All of his Yankee WS credibility would go down the toilet.
Nip it in the bud, Ned.
Colletti, are you listening?????????
Don't trade Matt Kemp for anyone.
jscrll why worry what they paid him per year…the parking lot guy is paying it not us…he overpaid for the short contract…he did not pay 90 mil for 5 years and hurt us for the future…we have not had a slugger since sheffield/piazza. Strikeouts are what you get and we will live with it. If he reverts back to the 40 /120 guy no one will care…if it is the .222 guy we will all scream, but i think it was his elbow injury that severely hampered his swing.
Go Andruw and Go Dodgers!!!
a 22 year olds numbers in the major leagues:
98 292 47 100 12 5 10 42
10 .342 .373 .521
yea trading matt kemp would be one of the worst things the dodgers could ever do
The reason every other team is asking about Kemp is because he is a complete stud. Well, the good news is we already have him and we don't have to trade our best player to get him.
I'm going to keep Kemp and put all my chips in.
A year ago we signed a centerfielder for 50 million. Today we signed a much better one for 36 million. If we can't talk about Pierre and what to do with him when can we? But really we are beating a dead horse, problem is someone comes in and if you guys ever saw the movie as good as it gets with Jack Nicholson he says, "go sell crazy someplace else, we are all stocked up here" is how we feel.
As for Ned, what else is he suppossed to say. I think saying…We are moving him to left field is a classy way of telling baseball we want to trade him.
I really will call this offseason a huge success if we can land the Japanese pitcher and do little else.
PS: the numbers come from magic. No just kidding, baseball cube and baseball reference for the most part.
PSS: Lee you are so flatering to me. Ditto over here, your posts are great as always and Max man you crack me up….you guys all really make for good dodger talk.
PSSS: Does anyone ever visit the angel blog? Do they have one like this and is everyone just as nuts over there as we are?? I wonder?
Let Pierre know now that he will be sharing time, at the most, with Ethier in left and he will probably demand a trade. Thank you God.
one other reason not to trade kemp…ive had his jersey since the begining of last season…and i dont want it to go to waste lol
Jrscll, at least you recognize that Pierre must go. Good for you. Mickey Mantle struck out alot too by the way.
Posted by: email@example.com | December 6, 2007 01:01 PM
jhall1218, Mikey struck out an average of 95 times a year in his 18 career years. Andruws average per year is 127 for his 11 years. A difference of almost 30 strike outs per year is a lot when it can translate to RBIs. Also Jones is a .263 hitter while Mantle is a .298. Cant compare the two jhall1218.
Allow me to join the growing chorus. Don't wreck a wonderful signing by trading Kemp or Ethier just to acomodate Pierre. Four years from now, when Pierre's bad contract is a memory Kemp might be finishing high in the MVP voting wearing an Orioles uniform. DON'T DO IT, NED!!! Give the loyal 4 million+ the opportunity to watch this thoroughbred flourish in LA.
Point is JR, power hitters strike out alot. It is the price you pay.
By the way, back in his day. 95 strikeouts was huge compared to today's game.
It's a good thing most dodger fans arent like the poor pathetic hate mongers that post on this blog… you people are so unhappy in your personal lives that you can only post hate filled missives? It's just sad.
Don't get me wrong however, I am not trying to put Jones in Mantle's league. Jones couldn't carry his jock.
Yea power hitters strike out a lot but not worth 18 mil for a .263 hitter. Never seen a .275 career hitter or less than .275 make more than 15 mil. Again I am happy Jones is a Dodger but did we really need to pay 18 mil?
Spanner I happen to have a pretty darn good life. I just call it like I see it.
JHALL you can compare him to another HOF Reggie Jackson he struck out a few times and had a very nice career…
Since when does expressing an opinion translate into hate. No one has made a personal attack on a player or blogger here. Until now.
ok boys we are losing sight of the task at hand and that is getting rid of Pierre no hate but he needs to hustle his little butt for someone else.
spanner, what do you want to talk about then?
All you want to talk about is how everyone here is full of hate. Do you have "hate" mixed up with "facts" or "observation"?
Wanting to trade Pierre in favor of a far superior Ethier or Kemp is not hateful, but smart baseball.
This is not about building up Pierre's self esteem, but making the team better. If you are happy with mediocrity, then good for you, but why the angst against sound minds?
Yeah, what cameron said. And you happen to be in the minority spanner, so I assume that makes most Dodger fans poor pathetic hate mongers. Your words, not mine. I happen to disagree with that assessment. I happen to think there are some very intelligent people on this blog who know exactly what this team needs.
Ethier/Jones/Kemp > Pierre/Jones/Ethier or Kemp
Nothing personal, Pierre has to go.
90 percent of the messages on here are "dump pierre"… as if that is the only thing that is wrong with this team.. no third baseman? Not a problem.. weak starting pitching.. not a problem.. no backup catcher.. not a problem… bad arm in the outfield… oh my god….the team can't win!!
greats posts scott and alex…hopefully that wasn't too hateful.
Every team Colletti talks to about a trade wants Matt Kemp on their team. Hasn't it dawned on him that he may already have possibly the best future hitter on the team. Let's get on the band wagon and let Colletti know not to trade him under any circumstances.
Scott and Alex,
Flawlessly logical. What would Spock do? LOL
Alex, minority on this blog maybe.. and come on.. Ethier is no hall of famer… geez…
I put the bulk of the overpaying of players on NIMROD ******* agents like Boras. The "Market Value" for an above average, or just plain average player these days is just plain nuts!! Boras is the worst thing to happen to pro sports since Don King got the sport of Boxing to become so out of whack, and corrupt.
the thing is left fielders are supposed to be power hitters or at least have a very nice batting avg. they are supposed to be one of your top hitters. pierre would be great if we was a second baseman…but he is not.
spanner…bad arm in the outfield? if we get rid of pierre, that goes away too.
so wat should the dodgers do spanner?
Spanner, we have the 33rd best prospect in baseball and he is a 3rd baseman. I don't see a huge hole at 3rd. Backup catchers are a dime a dozen. Penny, Billz, Lowe is not exactly weak starting pitching. Most teams would love to have 1 thru 3 in their starting rotation secured as well.
spanner you seem to selectively read the posts, we all think that the rotation needs to be addressed, I personally think its more important than ridding ourselves of Pierre. We often talk about the 3rd base situation as well and most minor league reports indicate that LaRoche might be the most talented hitter in the crop of youngsters we have. To get a Rolen or Feliz is the equivelant of signing LuGo in '07.
Baseball is a business. I respect the game streak that Pierre has accomplished but he isn't good enough to start every game for the Dodgers. He could start for a few other teams but not in LA. Ned should respect Pierre the MAN and try to find a home for Pierre the PLAYER. I love everything about Pierre the MAN but Pierre the PLAYER doesn't fit with the Dodgers. Nothing against the little guy but he's just not one of the best three outfielders we have.
weak starting pitching..
(name an NL team with a better 5 man rotation?)
You might be a bit sad if you worry about back up catcher..so lets not go there!
Bad arm and bad hitter in OF with younger and better options..whats the problem exactly? Even you know Ethier is a better all around player then JP.
and do i think our pitching needs to be better..yes..but sheesh its not like Penny, Lowe, Bills are stiffs.
bill, if we get rid of Pierre we lose our speed threat.. Thats an important part of the team. Pierre's batting average last year was better than Ethier's and much better than Jones. Heck, even his OBP was better than Jones. He scored more runs and stole many more bases than both of them. Sure he doesn't hit home runs but that isnt his game.
What should we do? Find someone to play third base! Sign another pitcher! I'd much rather have Pierre than Ethier.
jungar, even if those three win every start (unlikely) you still need someone in the 4 & 5 spots.. are you happy with the options there?
email@example.com wrote:
…Don King got the sport of Boxing to become so out of whack, and corrupt.
WHAT?? Boxing is corrupt? (or has the appearance of corruption??) Say it isn't so! (heavily laden with sarcasm)
spanner, Furcal/Kemp/Martin aren't stolen base threats? Also when you're a power hitter, OBP doesn't mean nearly as much as it does for a table-setter.
gosh what's happening to spanner?
are u trying to be the father figure in this blog? LOL
Charris, Pierre stole more bases than those three guys combined last season. And .222 is a BAD batting average for any player.
no..i am not..but really vs the rest of NL I cant think of obvious better potential rotations anyways, but yeah i dont trust schmidt and loazia to win 10 games between them so i hear ya.
Spanner most people on here think I'm crazy but you wanting Pierre over Either is just plain out crazy….Everybody wants to improve their pitching but name me all the team that have a 1-2-3 punch like we have. The only 2 I can think of off the top of my head are Boston and now Atlanta because of Glavin….And why do we need a 3rd baseman? Start Nomar and by the time he gets hurt LaRoche will be on a tear again. Give him the job and wait and see what happens.
I'd much rather have Pierre than Ethier.
Posted by: firstname.lastname@example.com | December 6, 2007 01:36 PM
Let's move on…
Cam ATL has Hudson, Smoltz and…is Glavine the three?
Chi Sox are supposed interested in Pierre. They need a lead-off hitter and a CF. Owens isn't polished enough to take over. Pierre for Crede straight up.
did the stolen base help us last season?
JP isn't even a factor when the dodgers win!
u can only remember a number of games where JP has been a factor!
try to watch games!!! when Furcal is hot the offense is hot! w/c makes Furcal more valuable than JP! so we dont need JP's speed!
spanner you do realize that Jones was injured the majority of last season right? He just soldiered through his injury and put up sub-par numbers. You don't actually think that Jones is .222 bad every year do you? Besides he still outproduced Pierre last year in terms of run production.
Furcal, MArtin, Kemp, AND repko are all speed guys– we are fine with speed… What we lack are RBI guys with power– exactly what we got with Jones, and will be even further improved with Ethier in his second full year… When you factor in defense, i have no idea how anyone would prefer Pierre in LF to Andre.
spanner You've made a valid point. Like Vin always says; "Speed don't slump." But the minuses with Pierre by far outweigh his great speed.
(andre in his second full year in the majors nonetheless– the kid has a very bright future)
Grading The Deal: Dodgers Add Andruw Jones
6th December, 2007 – 3:50 pm
Christopher Reina/RealGM – Scott Boras and Ned Colletti negotiated a two-year, $36.2 million deal for Andruw Jones that ultimately benefits everyone for these six reasons.
1. Jones' annual salary is on par with what he'd command on a six-year level had he not plummeted so catastrophically in 2007.
2. Jones is saved from the one-year contract embarrassment.
3. Jones will reenter the open market at a still relatively young age of 32.
4. The Dodgers are not handcuffed long term if Jones' 2007 doesn't turn out to be the aberration most believe it to be.
5. The Dodgers are able to rent Jones for two prime seasons.
6. Most importantly, the Dodgers address their need for a power bat.
The last time Jones struggled as badly as he did in 2007 (.222/.311/.413) was all the way back in 2001 (.251/.312/.461). But he rebounded the following season by having one of his best two or three campaigns of his career (.264/.366/.513).
But as I wrote in my Dodgers' State of the Franchise article, their biggest problem on offense was power production, not in getting runners on base. They hit just 129 homeruns in 2007, 15th in the NL and had a slugging percentage of just .406, this was despite being second in the NL in batting (.275).
Jones will unquestionably improve this area of deficiency for the Dodgers, even if he bats .250. However, he will not recover and become a high .200's or even a .300 hitter as he was in 2000, Joe Torre can't expect that. But if he can hit 26 homeruns in such a dreadful year, his total will certainly be closer to his typical 35 or even in the low 40s.
Over the past 10 seasons, Jones has hit 363 homeruns, good for eighth in the entire MLB.
Unfortunately, his career numbers at Dodger Stadium are discouraging, as he has a .735 OPS in 155 plate appearances.
Defensively, Jones is still a legitimate Gold Glover and any sort of way you can move Juan Pierre to left field, even if I was playing in center to replace him, improves their defense.
This move also allows them to comfortably move Matt Kemp (a player I am extremely high on) in a package for a starting pitcher such as Dan Haren or Erik Bedard.
Colletti was livid last winter when J.D. Drew opted out of his contract and went to Boston, but this signing gives the Dodgers a far better ballclub than they would put on the field if Drew remained.
Drew would have blocked Andre Ethier in rightfield, so you would be looking at Ethier/Kemp in left, Pierre in center and Drew in right, instead of Pierre in left, Jones in center and Ethier/Kemp in right.
The Dodgers' opening day lineup likely will be as follows and is very formidable:
1. Rafael Furcal
2. Russell Martin
3. James Loney
4. Andruw Jones
5. Jeff Kent
6. Andre Ethier
7. Nomar Garciaparra
8. Juan Pierre
Grade for Dodgers: A-
Furcal was hardly ever hot last season.
JP led the team in runs, i'd say that made him a factor
I'd much rather have Pierre than Ethier.
Posted by: email@example.com | December 6, 2007 01:36 PM
If Pierre is better than Ethier, how come we could trade Ethier and get lots of takers and no one will touch Pierre?
No Crede. La Roche has a MUCH higher ceiling. Crede has chronic back issues and he gets on base worse than Pierre.
Also Spanner, on a personal note, i saw how downhill and negative this blog became during the season but i assure it is not like that currently. People are all respecting eachother, and more importantly respecting the Dodgers players and oragnization. It is all respectful, constructive criticism. Bottom line– Pierre is the biggest problem with the team right now– we have a lot of good outfielders and Pierre is the worst (Kemp, Jones, Ethier, DY, Repko) yet still might end up playing a lot– its bound to get a lot of airtime.
We have been talking about pitching constantly though, and everyone feels the need to upgrade, but considering we have McDonald, Elbert, and Kershaw all being only a year away from making serious contributions, it simply does not make any sense to trade great prospects for the ace type pitchers that are available.
We have an ace in Penny, we have an ace in Bills, we have a potential ace in Kershaw (an understatement). Why give up great cheap players for a pitching that will cost big money in return? It doesnt make sense and i dont see it happening. Blanton i think could be had for lesser prospects, Beane isnt to trade Haren, and the the Orioles are going to ask for too much for a player that could command huge money in 2 years.
Batting Average = Overrated
For a leadoff guy, on base percentage is essential. With Pierre's .330 OBP out of the lineup, Furcal leading off with his .349 lifetime OBP and Ethier in the two spot with his .357 or Martin with his .374 OBP immediately set the table for Kemp, Jones, Kent and Loney to knock in. Add in LaRoche or Nomar at the bottom of the lineup and those men can swing the bat AND get on base. If Nomar can return to form it only helps the team. If not, LaRoche will get his big chance. Now admittedly Jones has some discipline issues, such as swinging for the fences and rolling over on outside pitches. I trust our tremendous coaching staff to work with him and to help him through his problem. When the guy is on he's as dangerous as anybody.
Perhaps we could send Nomar along with Pierre to the White Sox. It would be a double coup if we get nothing in return.
Seattle increased its offer to free-agent right-hander Hiroki Kuroda from three years to four and appears to be one of the two finalists for the pitcher's services. The Diamondbacks have increased their interest, while the Dodgers apparently have backed off.
jhall, I think you are on to something here.
NO MARTIN IN THE TWO HOLE– bad idea… I like that assessment Jungar however i dont see us going after the pitching with Kemp. Lets think about it like this:
Do we have any more young, 5-tool, power hitting, OF's in the farm right now?
Do we have young pitching on the farm that could be really good in hte not the distant future?
Why trade the great OF, with no one to replace him, for the pitching when pitching is what we are deepest in.. If anything, trade pitching for pitching…
jungar, thats scary… like the Dodgers are posturing for a Kemp and parts for Bedard or Santana scary.
Repko was just average at best back when he played last. After missing two seasons with injuries I wouldn't expect anything from him.
With all that's been said so far, I just hope Furcal comes into Spring training in shape, with no injuries to hinder him. He went through some terrible slumps & 'dry spells' last season. I just hope he's healthy, and returns to form.
Yeah Jungar I was refering to Smoltz, Hudson and Glavine.
No one is expecting anything from Wrecko. Just stay healthy and come in as a 4th outfielder.
theres no way we should offer Kuroda a fourth year. He could be a complete bust and then we're stuck with another Schmidt who will be thrown out there a fourth day no matter what. Why not go after Colon, Lieber, Prior or another such option. We already have an expensive rotation. Just don't offer four years to anyone.
uh, cameron, I wouldn't count on ol' Glavine to be a top of the rotation guy anymore. I mean the Mets need pitching in a bad way and they could care less about Glavine.
sorry every *fifth* day, lol.
4th outfielder. Pierre gone.
It looked like we were going up the homegrown route, when Colletti backed out of the Cabrera Fiasco, but then he immedially went back up the high road and got Jones.**** Everyone knows there is no indication, that Pierre is going any futher than left field, which keeps Kemp & Ethier dangling from the roof top again, waiting to be rescued by some team proberbly looking to unload a starting pitcher. Kemp being the most desirable. Now it's back to the way it was when Gonzo left. 2B, SS, CF & LF occupied by a veteran and Billingsley the only homegrown starting pitcher. The only indication that we might get back to the homegrown look is Jones' SHORT TERM contract. This may mean that Kent will stay, since we got another player with plenty of power in the lineup. They say he had an off year, but 26HR and 94 RBI is better than any Dodger did. It is a great purchase by Colletti even if it does free up Kemp. But I learned a long time ago you can't fall in love with these guys. Let's hope, if the Dodgers go for another starting pitcher he will be one of the FA kind and Kemp can stay around and fight over right field with Ethier. I WOULDN'T MIND THAT……..but will they?
I actually think the Dodgers need to wait and see what Schmidt can do come spring. I wouldn't mind giving Kuroda a chance, but he's 32 already with no MLB experience. He's really a **** shoot. I would be wary about over paying or over committing years to him.
Go with Schmidt and Loaiza and if they don't pan out, get a starter at the trade deadline for much less.
Kemp is no rookie, guys. .340 avg. in over 200 ab's? He's a major league talent already.
Yes indeed Scott. Loney also. These kids are no longer prospects.
I know you've gotten some hot comments, but I want to chime in. I don't think anyone here dislikes Pierre (the MAN, as Cameron puts, vs. the player). But in an outfield of Jones, Kemp, and Ethier, the consensus view is that he is the odd man out. But yet there is a fear that we would deal a young guy (one who seems good, one who may be great) in order to let him play left field, a position so typically geared toward a power-hitting player that Pierre would be one of the weakest ever to play there.
There are a lot of reasons the Dodgers did not win this year, and Pierre was part of it. But the rotation is credible, and there are a lot of kids. Third base is a question mark, but a lot of us have high hopes for Andy LaRoche. But if we play Pierre in left field, we have essentially used Andruw Jones to replace Andre Ethier or Matt Kemp, guys whose offensive production exceeded Jones last year, and could do so again, even if Jones rebounds. In other words, its treading water (or worse). But as much as Pierre is a fierce competitor and a good guy, replacing him makes the team better. And that's the issue with Pierre.
A couple of notes–there is some question on whether we overpaid for Jones. I think we did. But, we can afford to do so a little. But it is far better to take a $15 Million a year player and overpay him by $3 Million than it is to take a $6 Million player and overpay him by $3 Million. Overpaying at the high-end gets us good players. Overpaying in the middle ranges gets us bad contracts.
MartinLoneyKemp said he might trade Kemp for Santana. NO. Bad. Santana may be a superstar pitcher, the absolute class of his year. But that may be Kemp too. We need pitching, to be sure, but if you look at our minor leagues, we have pitching depth. Hitters like Kemp are rare, and why give up a great player for a great pitcher if in a year we can just give up money and keep our talent.
You also suggested trading Kemp for Santa–if Santa is carrying a magically restored 25-year old Sandy Koufax and Jackie Robinson, then I would do it. But that's about what it takes for me–the two greatest Dodgers in history.
I know, I'm overhyping Kemp, but every great player was once a kid, and I think Kemp will be truly elite.
Scott I think Glavin will put up amazing numbers this year. Look at what he did with the Mets last year and he faced everybody's ace. This year he'll be facing everybody's #3. And the Mets wanted Glavine back. He chose to decline his option because he wanted to come back to Atlanta…. But on the Dodgers side, I say leave Kuroda alone a go get Silva. He's a ground ball pitcher that eats up innings. His numbers will look alot better playing on grass and facing everybody's #4 instead of their #2.
I know nothing about that japanese guy he could be Kaz Ishi for all I know. I hear he is pretty good though..
I'd like the idea of taking the risk on Colon or Lieber or even Silva, good call jspelk..
Amen Lee!
yes, every great player was once a kid.. but the leagues are also littered with over hyped prospects who fizzled out and didn't live up to their potential.
leek you're right about Santana.
We have a ton of young pitching talent, so what we really need this year is a renter. No need to trade the farm for an expensive guy like Santana or Bedard or even Haren when Elbert and Kershaw, Meloan and maybe even Miller are coming soon. If Schmidt is able to return, then we just need a decent – not great – pitcher to fill the gap in the 5 hole. By holding onto Kemp, the offense will be that much more potent to support the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation.
cameron, you are probably somewhat of a Braves homer coming from GA, but if you're right about Glavine at his age, then good for him. He's been a good competitor and professional.
I also like the Silva idea. If Schmidt comes back, then Loaiza is the odd man out. No problem with that!
Dont forget about McDonald too….
There is some pretty solid data to support that what Kemp did at age 22 in MLB was pretty solid. Here you go spanner..
Matt Kemp and his age 22 and younger peers.
By ToyCannon
Posted on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 04:26:34 PM EDT
There have been 125 seasons since 1947 where a player has posted an OPS+ greater then 120 while being younger then 23 and having more then 200 at bats. Many of those players went on to have HOF or near HOF careers. A decent % did not. Of the ones that did not I was curious to see if there was a relationship between early plate discipline or not. Matt Kemp shows up on this list and his (OBP-AVG) is the 3rd worse on the list. My feeling was that I would find that the players with the best discipline would go on to greater glory and that the players with the least amount of discipline would struggle.
While I could find examples of players with lousy plate discipline struggling after success at an early age, (Ellis Valentin, Rich Coggins, Alex Johnson, Dave Roberts) I also found examples of players who struggled that had good or even excellent plate discipline (Curt Blefary, Ben Grieve, Bernie Carbo).
I counted about 13 players who I would consider flame outs. Players who had excellent success at an early age but for whatever reason were unable to put together a solid career.
I counted about 18 players who I considered to have "good" careers. These players had a total (WARP3 greater then 40 and less then 80) and whose EQA was below 300.
I counted about 21 players who I considered to have "great" careers but fell short of the HOF. Some of them might even belong in the HOF. These players either played a position such as catcher(Freehan, Porter, Torre, Simmons) and had excellent EQA's and WARP3's or were position players who had EQA's above .295 and WARP3 totals above 80.
I counted 18 HOF players.
I counted 6 active players who I expect to make the HOF very easily.
Tony Conigliaro was well on his way to a HOF career when a fastball to the head basically ended his career. He is the only player to be on this list 4 times. From age 19 – 22.
Greg Gross gets special mention as he posted an OPS+ > 120 while not hitting a home run. He ended up being a valuable platoon player and I just had no idea how to rate him.
This list is interesting because it has two of the players most often mentioned by Dodger fans at the moment. Matt Kemp and Miguel Cabrera.
Several players who became flame outs ended up being traded but NO ONE was ever traded after posting a year like Matt Kemp posted at the age of 19-22. Also no one has been traded to my knowledge at the age of Miguel Cabrera after what he has accomplished.
If they end up being the centerpiece of a mutual trade, it might well be the most amazing thing to happen this winter.
Scott I'll admit that I was a Braves fan growing up but as soon as JB got drafted by the Dodgers I became a full blown Dodgers fan. I've always admired the history of the Dodgers and pulled for them when they weren't playing the Braves but now it's only Dodger Blue. But I am also a fan of the game.
Alright guys my workweek is over so I'll catch up on things later.
Excellent column by Steve Henson
Yeah I am a Glavine fan too. He just seems like a real good guy..The last time Glavine didnt throw 180 innings was 1995!
USA Today reported this morning that the Brewers and Dodgers are talking about a deal that would send right-hander Ben Sheets and centerfielder Bill Hall to Los Angeles in exchange for outfielders Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier.
A member of the Brewers front office told me last night that no talks have been held with LA about Sheets. And I just bumped into manager Ned Yost in the hallway of the winter meetings hotel, and he confirmed that no talks with the Dodgers have taken place regarding Sheets. And Yost sits in on all trade discussions.
Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti has been reluctant to give contracts beyond three years, and was burned last year in the one instance he did so. Juan Pierre's five-year, $45 million deal was widely panned, and one year later Jones will take Pierre's job in center field. A Dodgers source said that if the season began today, Pierre would compete with Andre Ethier for playing time in left field. Matt Kemp and Ethier would be penciled into right field.
This is great news as it indicates that Ned realizes his huge mistake of signing Pierre. Hopefully, Pierre will request a trade and end our misery..
jungar, I used to model my game after Glavine…away hard, away soft, further away soft, inner black HARD! He's a stud, anybody that can win 300 without breaking 90 MPH deserves respect. I'm glad he has the opportunity to end his career as a Brave, its just a shame that Maddux couldn't have joined him.
I keep reading about Pierre haters. This is not about Pierre. It's about Ethier and Kemp. These are two great young players, on both sides of the ball. If Pierre is content to compete against these guys, fine. May the best baseball player win. But stop babying Pierre because of his streak or because of Ned's pride. That Pierre sat NOT ONE GAME last year while Gonzo, Ethier, and Kemp played musical chairs was a travesty. And if Pierre's only contribution is speed, it's not offset by his liabilities on defense or his lack of power wasted in a corner outfield spot.
**** Max, great comment Kali.
I was crying most of the season when a ball was hit to center or Pierre was at the plate.
lol max. he sure got there fast though.
Guys, I'm off to Mexico, so be good and here's to Kemp still being on the team when I return!
I got it, I got it oops… oh well at least I'll steal 50 bases and get 200 hits.
Have fun Scott. Have a safe and happy trip.
I haven't been much of a Kemp fan to this point, but I'm beginning to really hope he remains with the team. I'll say again that I'm curious to see how he would mature under Torre and his staff.
Safe trip, Scott!
kemp and brox 4 bedard…
who's in?
Not me
No one Justin.
ethier for bill hall?
prolly just some dumb rumor..
but im down for trading ethier for hall…specially since hall is normally a secondbase man
Ethier and not much else for Hall and Sheets would be a good deal. Hall can play left and we get a pitcher.
ESPN's Jayson Stark said he's heard that both the Phillies and Dodgers have already informed the Tigers they have no interest in Brandon Inge.
Thanks Alex, that is good news.
Ethier may not be the third best OF for the Ds next year. It could be DY in LF. He's 25 now.
He had only 3 E's in 121 AAA games (not bad for AAA).
(.337/.384/.571/.955 in 490 AB).
He needs to cut down on the 105 K's, though.
Ethier, in my opinion, is going to be a better than average major leaguer. He is only 25 and already is a better than average hitter. He runs well and plays good defense. Has a good arm and instincts. Takes good routes to balls hit to the outfield and makes good decisions. Why give up on this guy. He can contribute on every level.
props to whoever just called into wfan in ny regarding the dodgers…well done.
Why live or die by Ethier with 13 HRs in 447 AB, when you have the potential of 17 miLB and 2 MLB HRs and a higher OBP with DY?
Ethier is a true major leaguer, but the Ds have other options coming up. If Ethier is good trade bait for a good SP, why not?
I say protect Kemp, consider trading Ethier. I know that Ethier bats L, but DY bats S with success from both sides.
Well, to beat a dead horse, a little more rebuttal to spanner about Pierre:
Spanner correctly cited that Pierre led the team in runs last year. But I think the better question in terms of who was the most productive run-scorer is to look at Runs/Plate Appearance.
Looked at this way Furcal, Martin, and Kemp were all more productive run scorers.
Although you're obviously entitled to your opinion, it is the wise mane who admits the error of his ways.
Please continue to participate here at insidethedodgers. We can all learn from each other and from healthy debate.
i agree with shepherd. i think ethier is expendable. he does not have the ability of kemp, marin, and loney. plus i really like dy and i think he can do the same if not better than ethier. he deserves a chance to show wat he can do. if we can trade ethier for a pichter..with DY to replace him…why not take that chance?
shepherd —
I've seen Delwyn hit, and WOW! he can really blister the ball. But there remains a very big question mark as to whether he can hit in the major leagues. 34 ABs have shown that he can hit pitchers who don't know him. I'll need to see at least 100 more ABs before I know if DY is the real thing. Additionally, there are some serious questions about his fielding abilities.
It would be premature to rely on Delwyn as an every day starter at this point.
Also, nobody else in the system has shown that we have enough to give away Ethier yet.
If we can get a quality starter with Ethier and some minor prospects, I would concur. Giving up Kemp is not an option in my opinion.
Ethier is an asset.
Pierre is a debit.
All you CPA's out there, chime in.
I know that DY misjudged a fly vs. Cuba, but 3 errors in 121 games speaks louder than 1 misjuded fly.
I am not saying DY is better/will replace Ethier. I am saying we need a good SP and Ethier could attract one.
DYs top end appears higher than Ethier, based on an incomplete record and direct observations. He was picked for Team USA and was a leader.
Neither Ethier nor DY will ever play CF, but DY is slightly faster and hits harder when he makes contact.
I'd much rather have Pierre than Ethier.
Posted by: email@example.com | December 6, 2007 01:36 PM
If Pierre is better than Ethier, how come we could trade Ethier and get lots of takers and no one will touch Pierre?
Posted by: firstname.lastname@example.com | December 6, 2007 01:51 PM
Spanner, do I get an answer?
Furcal is $14.5 million/year.
Now that we have Andruw, we could package Pierre and Ethier and still have Repko and DY to fight for time in LF.
But here's an idea if we want an upgrade over Ethier/Pierre. How about Alex Rios?
They're asking for Tim Lincencum from the Giants, so it looks like they want a young ML-ready starter. We don't have any of those to give away.
So how about a three-team trade? Something like this:
We send Pierre, Ethier and maybe somebody like James McDonald or Scott Elbert to the outfield-poor Pirates, they send Gorzelanny to the Bluejays, and we get Alex Rios.
Now our lineup is:
We've unloaded Pierre, not done major damage to our farm system, and put the final touches on a monster lineup and an amazing outfield defense.
Just one more year Shepherd.
I like your thinking.
sounding like the emperor in ESB:
Yes, yes martinloneykemp, can it be done?
He will join us or die, my master.
Never bat LaRoche 8th, that was a disaster last year. He will develop better with a major league hitter between himself and the pitcher. He is too focused on the strike zone to swing a pitches off the plate, but that's all he gets in the 8 hole. We don't want him to break a good habit of knowing the strike zone, so bat him 6 or 7.
Rios bats R and had 7 E's last year. If you want a lefty or S, that doesn't get you there. Why not keep Gorzelanny? We could use 201.2 IP with a 3.88 ERA.
Why not keep Gorzelanny? We could use 201.2 IP with a 3.88 ERA.
Now you are talking CHARRIS language. Yeah that guy would be great to get.
So, with Andruw, we now have 39 on the 40-man. Who could we add through FA or a minor leaguer?
My favorite answer starts with K and ends in uroda. But any good SP would make me happier than I already am.
Alex–you beat me to it. I just read the Steve Henson column, and it calmed me.
"Another option is to trade an outfielder, but a source said that Kemp is not expected to be dealt despite the widespread interest in him throughout baseball. Colletti has shopped Pierre, but hasn't had any takers."
I read elsewhere that we would "rather deal Ethier than Kemp," but "have not taken Kemp off the table."
All of this suggests that the front office is, in fact rational. If I were GM, among the things I would do is: 1) not trade Matt Kemp; and 2) never say that I was not going to trade him (so that you can hook people in, and try to pull the old switcheroo).
Interesting idea, MartinLoneyKemp, but I don't buy it. Rios is good, but I would rather have a pitcher like Gorzellany if we are in that type of deal, and give DY a chance in Right (I don't think Repko is ever going to be healthy enough to play full-time). But, that's three players for one, and I don't know that I like it. Espescially since, even while we have deep pitching prospects, it's so crucial, so stockpiling is good, and you'd be giving up one of them. The other problem is that the Pirates would be taking on a big contract with Pierre, so we would probably have to give cash considerations. It's a little too rich for my blood.
Honestly, if the Dodgers made no other moves this off-season, I would be thrilled. Adding Kuroda is nice, but this year or next and we should start seeing some of that pitching come up to join Billingsley, and we could be in for a good long run as long as we continue to play it smart and Ned's actions match his talk.
JHail – Feel I should set the record straight as a former accounting major. A plus asset is a debit, a minus asset is a credit. And Pierre's assets on a bench if I'm the manager.
Thank You Enchanted One.
Billz will be an ace.
"give DY a chance in Right"
DY plays LF. Kemp has a better arm.
I have the idea of the perfect trade for the Dodgers. Lets trade Pierre to Japan for Kuroda. LOL.
FA STARTING PITCHERS-any of these guys interest anyone?
13. Hiroki Kuroda (33) – Might be the most sought-after pitcher this offseason, even if his 1.85 ERA in Japan came two years ago.
14. Carlos Silva (28) – Impeccable control. Not $10 million-a-year control, but the market – and not talent – will dictate that.
16. Livan Hernandez (33, allegedly) – Nine of 10 years pitched at least 200 innings. The other year: 199 2/3.
19. Freddy Garcia (32) – Surgery, shmurgery. If he's healthy, he's a legit No. 2, and he can be had at a bargain for the risk-taking types.
22. Kyle Lohse (29) – Were these rankings on potential salary instead of accomplishment, he'd be in the top 10.
23. Bartolo Colon (35) – Seems like more than two years since he won his Cy Young.
27. Jason Jennings (29) – Is he the magician who spun a 3.78 ERA in Colorado two years ago or the bum who couldn't keep his ERA under six in Houston?
39. Jeff Weaver (31) – That one-year deal didn't work out so well.
41. Jon Lieber (37) – Innings-eater went on a hunger strike last year.
45. Josh Fogg (31) – Boston slew the The Dragon Slayer in the World Series.
51. Kip Wells (30) – Still hasn't found his LaFawnduh.
53. Kris Benson (33) – Coming off rotator cuff surgery.
54. Matt Clement (33) – About $1.39 million per win for the Red Sox.
71. Odalis Perez (30) – Decent stuff, poor work ethic.
77. Byung-Hyun Kim (29) – Please, just make him a reliever again.
78. Steve Trachsel (37) – If this baseball racket doesn't work out, he's got a ready-made TV show.
79. Brett Tomko (34) – Still never pitched a full season with a sub-4.00 ERA.
85. Eric Milton (32) – Last time he did this, received one of the worst contracts in the history of free agency.
89. Rodrigo Lopez (32) – On the off chance that he can come back from a ligament and flexor tendon tears.
92. Tony Armas (29) – Yeah, he's worse than a guy with a blown-out arm.
112. Russ Ortiz (33) – Incidentally, he pitches like a guy with a blown-out arm.
115. Mark Redman (34) – Will he get yet another bite?
116. Aaron Sele (37) – Ditto.
122. Jaret Wright (32) – Seems like the longest three-year deal ever.
140. John Thomson (34) – Pitched 188 innings over three seasons.
I still think you get more for Pierre if you wait and flip him at the trade deadline when someone might be desperate for some outfield help. Meantime only loss is a roster spot while he grabs some pine with Nomar. Might actually come in handy once in awhile as a PR for Kent.
Jones' agent, Scott Boras, reached his agreement with Los Angeles late Wednesday night. The Dodgers had 379 putouts in center field this year, the fewest in the NL, and their 129 homers ranked 15th among the 16 NL teams. Not exactly what new manager Joe Torre is looking for in his first season with the Dodgers.
"The owner, Frank McCourt, had a lot to do with Andruw's decision," Boras said. "Frank McCourt did a great job of illustrating to Andruw that if he repeated his performance and played to the levels he played to in the past, they had the wherewithal to keep him."
Good link jungar, if I'm speculating the pitching market (assuming we don't get Kuroda), I think Silva is a safe bet for back-end help. I know that I keep bringing his name up but CJ Wilson was a durable SP in his college years. If he conditioned himself, I think he could handle the grind. When I played against him in college, he was the best pitcher and hitter in our conference. Could translate into success in the NL as a SP. That might be a stretch but I'd still be willing to bet that Texas would make that move if we were willing to take on some of Pierre's contract.
really really great deal my Ned Colletti.
"Never seen a .275 career hitter or less than .275 make more than 15 mil."
Posted by: firstname.lastname@example.com | December 6, 2007 01:22 PM
(similar statement also posted earlier)
You don't have to work very hard to prove that statement false. Think back two weeks and move the organization office about 55 miles south. The Angels signed Torii Hunter to a 5-year/$90M deal, an $18M average. Torii's career BA? .271
Hunter is also already 32 years old. Hunter vs. Jones:
Hunter – .271 .324 .469 104 OPS+
AJones – .263 .342 .497 113 OPS+
The one big difference is that Jones is coming off a career low year (start of decline or aberration?) and Hunter is coming off a career year (peaked?). The Dodgers are gambling on Jones' age 31 and 32 seasons, the Angels are gambling on Hunter's age 32-36 season. (Is Torii still going to be a CF at age 35 or 36?).
Remember, Ned Colletti values depth. IF he were to trade Kemp for pitching, the Dodgers' OF depth chart looks like:
Jones (big money FA signing)
Ethier (competent, nearly two full years MLB experience)
Pierre ('nuff said)
Young (rookie)
Repko (27 years old, less than 1/2 the PAs of Ethier)
and as was pointed out earlier, the Dodgers' minor-league depth at OF is poor. That does not look to me like the OF roster that Ned Colletti wants to go to spring training with. Therefore I think Kemp stays, unless there is some other change (e.g. Fukudome is signed).
Thanks Fogey. Good stuff.
did anyone see the latimes poll?
With the signing of Andruw Jones, which is the best outfield for the Dodgers?
Juan Pierre in left, Jones in center, Andre Ethier in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Matt Kemp in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Ethier/Kemp platoon
Ethier in left, Jones in center, Kemp in right
713 total responses
For every Steve Henson column you have trash written by Bill Plaschke who once again doesn't get it…apparently he's one of the 4.6% who think Pierre, Jones and Ethier should be our outfield. He's a bigger goof than Rosenthal.
Did you know that 4.6% of the population will always click on the first radio button of an internet poll, irrespective of the question?
put the padres in that 4.6 percent as well.
"The Dodgers smartened up from last winter, when they guaranteed Juan Pierre $45 million over five years. Trust me, that deal pleased the Padres."
san diego news paper.
Is this Plaschke guy kidding?:
"The Dodgers need to keep Pierre's speed and bunting ability at the top of the order. Goodness, it's one of the reasons Jones agreed to play here."
And here I thought the reason Jones signed was the $36 mil. All along it was Pierre's ability to bunt.
i thought this little nugget was especially funny from Billy Boys article…
"No, no, the Dodgers will not and should not trade the short-armed center fielder. Just because he was overpaid doesn't mean he lacked value. Did everybody somehow miss that he was second in the league in stolen bases and led the league in sacrifice bunts?"
"led the league in sacrigice bunts"……………………
*sacrific bunts* jeez bill has really outdone himself with that article.
The Times needs to put Billy Boy in the entertainment section because his articles always provide great comedy.
I emailed Billy Boy about his wonderful piece of comedy written. Here is the email in its full glory.
SUBJECT: Another great article Bill.
Body: You are the best comedy writer in the business today. I don't know how you do it but you do it well. Especially when it comes to Juan Pierre. The best part of the article was when you showed how much of an asset Pierre's ability to lead the league in sacrifice bunts is. Who knows, without those bunts we could have been behind the Giants! Boy Matt Kemp can't do that! Even if he did he'd negate them with his baserunning mistakes again. Keep up the comedy Bill. The sports section would be lost without it.
Your biggest fan,
He is just embarrasing.
Plaschke is an idiot, at least when it comes to baseball. Even when he says something true (Pierre is overpaid [maybe – it's only half of Torii Hunter's bloated contract], but he is NOT valueless), he backs it up with the wrong facts!
How many times did we watch Pierre bunt a runner to 3rd w/ no outs early in the game? Real hitters hit grounders to the right side to move the runner in that situation and, bonus, sometimes the grounders go through for a hit AND an RBI!
He and his editors could use a refresher course in writing as well… unless that is JPs true problem – short arms. No wonder he cant throw!
As a child Plaschke was what certain people called "special".
I would bet my house on him leading baseball in force outs. If he didnt, blame it on Furcal for not getting on enough.
i'd be willing to bet most of those "sacrafice bunts" happened in the first inning when Furcal got on base and Pierre tried to bunt for a base hit and failed miserably.
Someone tell Plaschke left field is for big bats (Ramierez, Bonds, Dunn, Holliday) not sacrifice bunts. If Pierre is so gosh darn valuable, perhaps we can get Santana or Bedard for him.
I still say Pierre's biggest asset to the team is when his assets on the bench.
If Pierre is so valuable why did we just spend 36 million dollars to replace him?
our lives would be better if Plaschke was the GM of the Padres
That said, I still think JP'll at least be on the team when the season starts (though I hope I'm wrong) for a few reasons:
1. Ned's not going to want to go into the season with the two back-up outfielders as Repko and Young. Someone goes down he's going to want someone with more experience stepping in. Not that either can't play rings around JP, but it could have one good by-product – it may keep the Nedster from hitting the panic button and doing something really stupid.
2. It allows both Colletti and JP to save some face.
3. (Don't laugh) It could increase JP's trade value to deal him at the trade deadline when some team may be hurting for a warm body in the outfield.
Just some thoughts – tell me where I'm going wrong.
There still is time for Williams to salvage his offseason.
When center fielder Andruw Jones agreed to a two-year, $36.2 million contract with the Los Angeles Dodgers, that limited the destinations for former Sox center fielder Aaron Rowand. Losing the leverage of having the Dodgers in the picture could lessen Rowand's demands for a five-year deal and stoke talks with the Sox.
Acquiring Jones also allows the Dodgers to entertain offers for speedy center fielder Juan Pierre, the former Cub whom Guillen adores from their days together with the Marlins. The Sox are still in need of a legit leadoff hitter, and Pierre would team well at the top of the Sox' lineup with newly acquired shortstop Orlando Cabrera — Williams' lone bright spot this offseason — in the No. 2 spot. Say what you will about Pierre, but he would be an improvement over current leadoff favorite Jerry Owens.
And adding Pierre might make more sense than re-acquiring Rowand.
The Sox are still weighed down by an aging, slow middle lineup. Rowand, 30, will provide pop — and better defense in center field — but Pierre would add the speed element Guillen has been craving.
Pierre, 30, signed a five-year, $44 million contract last offseason with the Dodgers. He is among the crop of recent free-agent center fielders — a group that includes the Los Angeles Angels' Torii Hunter and Gary Matthews Jr. — who landed five-year deals, setting the bar for Rowand.
Yes, Pierre's on-base percentage has slipped since an impressive .374 in 2004, but he has stolen at least 45 bases in each of his seven full major-league seasons, including a career-high 64 in 2007.
Rowand, meanwhile, is coming off a career year with the Philadelphia Phillies, hitting .309 with 27 home runs and 89 RBI to earn his first All-Star appearance. A first-round pick of the Sox in 1998, Rowand was a fiery member of the 2005 team that won the World Series. He would return with considerably better credentials to be the leader this clubhouse needs.
Sox insiders agreed that Williams arrived at the winter meetings ornery and itching to make a big splash after losing out on Hunter last month. Fumbling on Miguel Cabrera was a major blow. And the Sox don't figure to outbid the Cubs once Japanese outfielder Kosuke Fukudome hits the free-agent market — possibly by today.
Like I said earlier, Pierre's not the problem. Keep him, trade him. Dress him up in a Sunday suit. Whatever. Who cares. Just don't mess with Kemp. NOT KEMP.
no thats a good post enchanted…you may be dead on. But there are also alot of decent back up OFers you can go get on the cheap before the season starts…
me..I don't care if he is on the team or not, I just care that Matt Kemp is (and to a lesser extent, Ethier).
"entertain offers for speedy center fielder Juan Pierre, the former Cub whom Guillen adores from their days together with the Marlins."
The Sun-Times columnist is right, the CWS is one of the teams where Pierre actually is an upgrade. I wonder how much money Ned would have to send along with him?
"1. Ned's not going to want to go into the season with the two back-up outfielders as Repko and Young." — enchantedsunset
That is my argument for why Ned will not be trading an OF for pitching, unless so other OF shows up (e.g. Fukudome). See my 7:08 PM post.
Someone in here please work the phones with the Chisox…let's help Ned straighten this thing out.
JP and the ChiSox would be a good match – they can certainly afford to carry a light hitting outfielder – got anyone in mind even-up? Still trying to come up with who JP reminds me of – was thinking Mickey Rivers, but he had a little pop now and then.
pierre for a ChiSox reliever perhaps? I don't think theyd trade a starter b/c they're trying to remain "competitive" (ha).
old_fogey may may have this right, and maybe enchantedsunset too. Keep Pierre, get comfortable with Repko/Young as back-ups, and send Pierre off mid-season. Interesting.
Seriously, though, we should consider Plashke's point–sacrifice bunts are KEY. Thus, we have to now reconsider Alex Rodriguez, who must be a worthless piece of junk since he had not had a sacrifice bunt since 1999.
I am not sure what's funnier–Plashke's column or the poll next to it where it shows that 70% – 85% of Plashke's reader's obviously think he's dumber than a jar of grape jelly.
And for all the joking about the sacrifice bunt statistic, Plashke's column is completely absurd on a mega level. He starts the column off with the idea of atonement, arguing that Ned needed forgiveness for the sin of signing Juan Pierre, but says that you can't get rid of him. How does that work? If you were coveting your neighbor's wife, shouldn't you stop coveting your neighbor's wife? Plashke's solution is apparently to start worshipping false idols too.
See they have a few who threw a lot of games, though not many innings. Wouldn't hurt to have another gamer in the pen with Torre's penchant for going to it a lot.
BTW, thanks for letting me horn in on your action guys – been nice chatting baseball this evening. All that's remotely close out here are the Diablos.
Padres fighting for Fukudome?
"UPDATE, 12-6-07 at 7:39pm: Sandy Alderson was on 1090 AM XX Sports Radio tonight. He said the Padres gave Fukudome one of the top two or three offers the team ever proposed. An answer from Fukudome is expected tonight or tomorrow."
Yep, Mickey Rivers had 61 lifetime homers. Which compared to Pierrre's 12 does make him look like Babe Ruth.
Eloquently said, leekfink.
My explanation is less so: Plaschke, and apparently 30% of Times sports page readers, are ******.
Apparently this site filters out the homonym for "more on".
Equally important to the Times poll is that only 6% feel Kemp should NOT be in the line-up…
All I know is Kemp deserves a shot to make it big in L.A. -could be a Mike Piazza; could be a Mike Marshall, but give him his chance. Too many top prospects from the Dodgers end up getting their chance with another club. Be nice to have a familiar face in the line-up for a few years. He might be a litle headstrong (weren't we all at that age?) but he'll mature. Besides that, why can't he be the straw that stirs the drink?
Dodgers will still pursue pitching
Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti says that most teams have stopped inquiring about outfielder Matt Kemp.
Jones gives them options, one of which is Japan's Kuroda. Colletti needs a jaw-dropping offer to give up Kemp.
By Dylan Hernandez, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
10:15 PM PST, December 6, 2007
NASHVILLE — The addition of Andruw Jones could end up providing the Dodgers with more than a bat in the middle of the lineup and 10-time Gold Glove winner in center field. The agreement of a two-year, $36.2-million deal that General Manager Ned Colletti confirmed Thursday could also net the Dodgers an extra arm in their rotation or bullpen.
"It makes our quest for starting pitching more focused, perhaps even more possible," Colletti said as he was preparing to leave the winter meetings.
Jones hit only .222 last season, but Colletti noted that his power numbers remained solid, as he hit 26 home runs and drove in 94 runs. Colletti said that Jones' bat made him "a little bit more" comfortable with his options at third base, the declining Nomar Garciaparra and the unproven Andy LaRoche.
"If something comes along that we know is definitively better, we'll take a shot," Colletti said. "But I don't want to use what I may have to use for pitching to take care of that."
The Dodgers have inquired about Baltimore Orioles left-hander Erik Bedard, but a deal for him probably would take a multi-player package that included Matt Kemp.
"We are not of the mind to give up three or four prospects for one player, I'll tell you that," Colletti said. To move Kemp, Colletti added, "I'd have to have a conversation where my jaw drops. It's got to be something you can't say no to. I haven't heard anything like that. In fact, teams have stopped asking."
That seemed to imply that Andre Ethier could be dealt for a mid-level pitcher.
The Dodgers could also bolster their rotation by landing Hideki Kuroda, a free-agent right-hander from Japan. Kuroda is set to visit Los Angeles next week, along with Seattle and Arizona. The Dodgers and Diamondbacks have offered Kuroda three-year contracts; the Mariners have offered a four-year deal.
Acquiring Kuroda would allow the Dodgers to use their extra outfielder to add a middle reliever, which Colletti said is another top priority.
Serious talks for Andruw Jones commenced Nov. 19, the day Jones' agent, Scott Boras, said he and associate Mike Fiore met with Colletti and Dodgers owner Frank McCourt at Dodger Stadium. The group met again at the ballpark Nov. 25, this time with Jones and Dodgers Manager Joe Torre in attendance.
Boras said he had in mind a seven-year deal and Colletti admitted that upon hearing his demands, he thought he had no chance of signing Jones.
But Jones was impressed with what McCourt told him, according to Boras. The agent said that while no promises were made, McCourt said he would look at signing Jones to a long-term extension if he performed the way he had in past seasons.
"The owner showed a willingness to commit to him long term," Boras said.
The Dodgers' contingent also shared their willingness to add pitching to ensure the team would be competitive. Shortstop Rafael Furcal, a former teammate with the Braves, later called Jones and told him about the team and the city, Boras said.
Furthermore, Boras said that most of the teams that contacted him about Jones wanted to sign his client to a mid-range deal in the neighborhood of four years. Jones wanted either a long-term deal that would provide security or something short that would allow him to re-enter the free-agent market in the relatively near future.
Colletti said the two sides "bridged a huge gap" on the first day of the winter meetings Monday, as Boras said he informed the general manager that Jones would be willing to explore a shorter contract. Boras said Jones told him of his decision to sign with the Dodgers on a conference call Wednesday evening.
Jones' deal will pay him a $12.2-million signing bonus, which will be paid over three years — $5.1 million next season, $2.1 million in 2009 and $5 million in 2010. He will earn a base salary of $9 million in 2008 and $15 million in 2009.
The deal is pending a physical, which Boras said Jones would probably take Tuesday or Wednesday. Jones is home in his native Curacao.
Jones' numbers have declined over the last few years — he hit 51 home runs in 2005, then 41 and 26 in the subsequent seasons, but Colletti said he has no worries that Jones could be named in the upcoming Mitchell report.
Colletti said he never met face-to-face with the other free-agent center fielder he was targeting, Aaron Rowand.
Colletti said that upon coming to an agreement with Jones, he called the incumbent starter in center field, Juan Pierre, and left him a voice message. He also sent him an e-mail.
But Colletti said that the weak-armed Pierre's likely move to left field — if not another team — didn't mean he regretted signing him to a five-year, $44-million contract last season.
"You can't look back on what you do like that," Colletti said. "It's not fair to anything. Come back to my office and I'll reconstruct the board and have you look at our club and have you look at the free-agent board at the same time and you tell me what you would do when we're sitting there with one outfielder, Andre Ethier, who has played four months of big league baseball and no other outfielders.
"It is what it is and we did what we had to do. We signed a player that's a great guy and a guy that comes to play every day and a great influence throughout the clubhouse. The way the 2007 Dodgers performed was not Juan Pierre's fault, but when other players don't produce in the clutch and you lose and you get frustrated, people look at everybody. I never said Juan Pierre is a franchise player. He's a very good player on a winning team."
Pierre did not return a voice message. His agent, Mark Pieper, said last month that Pierre preferred to remain in center field, but that he would accept whatever decision the team made and would not allow it to become a distraction.
With the signing of Andruw Jones, which is the best outfield for the Dodgers?
Juan Pierre in left, Jones in center, Andre Ethier in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Matt Kemp in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Ethier/Kemp platoon
Ethier in left, Jones in center, Kemp in right
1511 total responses
The worst thing of all is that Kemp & Ethier. Two outfielders with plenty of potential and a bright future, have no idea where their future lies.
lee you are so funny..where do u live….?
nice quotes again here by bizzaro ned. i love it…
Okay, we just signed Jones for $18 million a season. Let's see how Ethier, Loney, and Kemp stack up against him. Jones had 572 AB in 2007. If you extrapolate the actual numbers of Ethier, Loney, and Kemp to equal 572 AB, here's what you get (sorry, but I couldn't get the numbers to line up):
Player…AB. R.. H .2B 3B HR RBI
Now it pretty easy to see why everybody wants our young players and why the Dodgers would be fools to trade any of these guys. It also makes you wonder why Ned paid $18 million a season for Jones. It seems that the Dodgers are always overpaying for players, either in $ or players in a trade. Are Jones' numbers really worth $18 million over Ethier's and Kemp's?? If so, then Loney is worth $18 million, too!!
Because Jones has
a) been doing it **** well for 10 seasons.
b) has won 10 gold gloves
c) is a major improvement over our current CF
d) You cant expect Loney to put up 25/110 – his September was HUGE for any player, and it realistically inflated the numbers you came to.
e) a deal is a compromise- Jones accepts shorter than ideal, we pay him THE GOING RATE. I think 18/yr is exactly what he is worth, but i can see how some do not.
And, philosophically speaking, who cares about the money we spend? There is no salary cap. We are a huge organization with the best attendance in baseball- we have the money. Why be frugal? I dont get it. Its not like signing Jones is compromising ANY other possible contract/signing… Watch Kuroda come to us now…
Now, will Dodgers' Jones be a big hit?
By Tony Jackson
NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Dodgers officials left the winter meetings Thursday confident they had addressed one of the club's top three needs by agreeing to terms with free-agent center fielder Andruw Jones on a two-year, $36.2 million contract.
But the question remains of exactly which Jones they are getting.
What they know is that Jones remains one of the game's best defensive center fielders, as evidenced by the fact he has won a Gold Glove in each of the past 10 seasons with Atlanta. What they also know is that offensively, Jones is coming off arguably was his worst season in a decade. He hit just .222, and his 26 homers matched his lowest total since he hit 18 in 1997, his first full year in the majors.
This was the same Jones who hit 92 homers with 257 RBIs over the previous two seasons. This was the same Jones who for years combined with teammate Chipper Jones in the middle of the Braves lineup to form one of the most feared one-two punches in the game.
"We still see him as a very good player," said Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti, who completed the deal late Wednesday night, about Andruw Jones. "You don't win 10 Gold Gloves playing a defense-oriented position and not have a pretty good resume.
"Some people say he isn't the same player he was five or six years ago. We'll find out. But whether he is or he isn't, he is probably still the best center fielder in the National League."
So what went wrong in 2007?
For one, there were reports Jones spent much of the season quietly battling an elbow injury that he played through, something that could have dramatically affected his swing. But another possible factor, especially given that Jones turned 30 last April, is that he hasn't played in fewer than 154 games or had fewer than 560 at-bats in any of the past 10 seasons.
During that time, Jones has played more games (1,730) than any other player in baseball, just ahead of New York Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez (1,693). But when it comes specifically to center field, an especially demanding and physically taxing position, Jones blows away the competition. He has played 1,629 games there in the past decade, almost 200more than second-place Steve Finley (1,433).
To that end, any chance of Jones reverting to form and once again becoming a menacing presence in the middle of the lineup might depend on Dodgers manager Joe Torre using him more judiciously than the Braves' Bobby Cox did in recent years.
But that might be easier said than done.
The addition of Jones creates a ripple effect in the Dodgers outfield, with weak-armed center fielder Juan Pierre moving to left to make room and leaving two rising young stars in Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp to play right.
One of them almost certainly will be traded, and it almost certainly will be Kemp. (My personal note: That's quite a stretch, I'd like to know why he thinks that, especially considering others have shot down that idea)
That would leave the light-hitting likes of Jason Repko and Delwyn Young as the Dodgers' only backup outfielders, so giving Jones an occasional day off to keep him fresh would leave a gaping hole in the middle of the order on those days.
Still, whatever problems Jones' signing presents, club officials are sure they will be far outweighed by the benefits. Besides that, Jones might not have to run as hard on some of the balls he hits as he did at Atlanta's more spacious Turner Field.
"We took some of his spray charts over the past few years and overlaid them to (a diagram of) Dodger Stadium," Colletti said. "It showed a lot of those balls going over the fence."
The next step will be to communicate with Pierre about his impending position change, something club officials haven't done all winter despite widespread media speculation it was coming. Colletti said he attempted to contact Pierre on Wednesday night, but was unsuccessful.
"I tried to call him after (Jones) had agreed in principle, but I got his voice mail," Colletti said. "I also sent him an e-mail."
Colletti said he did specify, in both the voice mail and e-mail, that he wanted to talk to Pierre about moving to left field.
The Dodgers would love to trade Pierre and keep both Ethier and Kemp, but that is highly unlikely if not impossible. While Ethier and Kemp are budding stars with middle-of-the-order power who have yet to reach their primes, Pierre is a 30-year-old banjo hitter with speed. Moreover, he still has four years and $36.5 million left on the $44 million contract the Dodgers gave him a year ago, adeal for which Colletti has been widely criticized given that Pierre is little more than a complementary player.
In the wake of the Jones signing, Colletti denied feeling any buyer's remorse over last winter's decision to sign Pierre.
"I don't regret it," he said. "You can't look back on what you do. It's easy to look back and rewrite history, but I don't have the opportunity to rewrite history, nor do I need to."
And to update:
5.7% would like to see a Dodger team without Matt Kemp
16.8% would like to see a Dodger team without Andre Ethier
8.9% would like to see them all on the same team with Kemp and Ethier platooning
68.6% would like to see a Dodger team without Juan Pierre
Out of 1,964 votes
How can anyone tell Dodgers fans to live with the pierre signing that there's nothing we can do were stuck with him. Are these the same people that were telling me to stop posting FIRE GRITTLE because he was our manager next year and their's nothing we can do. If we play Pierre it will cost McCourt more millions because we didn't take advantage of our resources and play the best players. Pierre WILL go I don't care what Colletti tries to spin to the media. Go Dodgers!!!
update on the LA times poll, its just too overwhleming.
Juan Pierre in left, Jones in center, Andre Ethier in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Matt Kemp in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Ethier/Kemp platoon
Ethier in left, Jones in center, Kemp in right
2881 total responses
I know we have heard some crazy rumors but this one would drive me nuts. On Rotoworld…Rays interested in Ethier…
The Tampa Tribune speculates that the Rays could be interested in Andre Ethier now that the Dodgers are thought to be shopping him following the signing of Andruw Jones.
The newspaper suggests that the Rays could offer up Al Reyes or Dan Wheeler in return for Ethier, but that seems unlikely to get a deal done.
Source: St. Petersburg Times
You do not give up a 25 year pure hitter who if he plays everyday will hit .285-295 with 15-20 HRS and 80-100 rbi and a plus defender for journeyman middle relievers…Al Reyes do not touch …dan wheeler is horrible…If you want to trade tell Kent if he comes back he is on the bench and package a deal to get Brian Roberts 2b with speed power and if we Lose furcal next yeat we have a proven leadoff hitter. No Ned you have been a good boy so far do not screw up.
If I were Ned, I would be burning up the phone lines with the White Sox to effect a Pierre trade.
Pay half his salary and ship him out. It would be better for all concerned. The Dodgers, the fans, and Pierre.
A Pierre trade would suit me best; otherwise, he needs to be relegated to being a 4th OF, subject, of course, to Ethier and Kemp showing up better in Spring Training. Automatically putting Pierre in LF would largely negate all of the benefit of signing Jones for CF.
Agreed Bear!!!!
another update
Juan Pierre in left, Jones in center, Andre Ethier in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Matt Kemp in right
Pierre in left, Jones in center, Ethier/Kemp platoon
Ethier in left, Jones in center, Kemp in right
3944 total responses
come on people! lets get it to 70%!
jerry crasnicks take on the Pierre ****…
Matt (San Marcos, TX): Is there a market for Pierre at all if the Dodgers eat some of his salary?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: (12:26 PM ET ) Matt,
There's only a market for Juan Pierre if the Dodgers eat an awful lot of his salary. Sorry, but no do-overs for Ned Colletti on this one
the orioles are out of their mind!
Peter Angelos' reluctance to deal in the AL East is not the only potential obstacle in the deal. Talent is another. According to one major league source, the Orioles recently discussed Erik Bedard with the Los Angeles Dodgers and asked for a package of prospects that included 23-year-old outfielder Matt Kemp, third baseman Andy LaRoche and 19-year-old left-hander Clayton Kershaw, the last of whom was the Dodgers' first-round pick in 2006 and reached Double A at the end of last season. Reportedly, the Dodgers rejected Baltimore's proposal out of hand. – Boston Herald
In his best years for the Dodgers, Maury Wills had the following stats:
1959 Los Angeles Dodgers 83 242 27 63 5 2 0 7 72 13 27 7 3 .298 .298 .260
1960 Los Angeles Dodgers 148 516 75 152 15 2 0 27 171 35 47 50 12 .342 .331 .295
1961 Los Angeles Dodgers 148 613 105 173 12 10 1 31 208 59 50 35 15 .346 .339 .282
1962 Los Angeles Dodgers 165 695 130 208 13 10 6 48 259 51 57 104 13 .347 .373 .299
1963 Los Angeles Dodgers 134 527 83 159 19 3 0 34 184 44 48 40 19 .355 .349 .302
1964 Los Angeles Dodgers 158 630 81 173 15 5 2 34 204 41 73 53 17 .318 .324 .275
1965 Los Angeles Dodgers 158 650 92 186 14 7 0 33 214 40 64 94 31 .330 .329 .286
1966 Los Angeles Dodgers 143 594 60 162 14 2 1 39 183 34 60 38 24 .314 .308 .273
From 1960 to 1966, Wills led the team in games, AB, runs, had a SB record of 414-131 (76%), in his peak seven seasons he had 10 HR and had .287/.336/.337/.673
Wills is a Dodger legend for stealing 104 in 1962, breaking Ty Cobb's record. He stole 40 and 53 in '63 and '64, respectively. Pee Wee Reese was well named. More later on how to do a modified SLG for someone who steals and takes the extra base.
I like Ethier better, but we need to package JP for sale.
The hack at LA Times. Bill Plaschke:
"No, no, the Dodgers will not and should not trade the short-armed center fielder. Just because he was overpaid doesn't mean he lacked value. Did everybody somehow miss that he was second in the league in stolen bases and led the league in sacrifice bunts?
The Dodgers need to keep Pierre's speed and bunting ability at the top of the order. Goodness, it's one of the reasons Jones agreed to play here. But at least now, Pierre can move to a safer left field and be viewed for what he is — a complementary player.
"I never said Juan Pierre is a franchise player," Colletti said. "He's a very good player on a winning team."
Four players in, one player out, and that player is either Kemp or Ethier, who are overcrowding right field."
Freaking idiot.
Plaschke is clearly dillusional.
Scenario No. 4: Los Angeles Dodgers
If the Dodgers are smart, they'll make Juan Pierre go away or deploy him like the fourth-outfielder-in-starter's-clothing he is. Andruw Jones (a very wise signing, by the way) will be the everyday center fielder and Matt Kemp, if common sense prevails, will be a regular at one of the wing outfield positions. However, there's talk the Dodgers might package Kemp and gifted young lefty Clayton Kershaw for Santana. If that happens, the Twins should jump on it.
Kemp's a future All-Star who, in a Minnesota uniform, could realistically become the first AL center fielder since Ken Griffey Jr. to win a home run title. Kershaw's also got tremendous upside and, provided he stays healthy and harnesses his stuff, could develop into an ace. It's far from certain that the Dodgers would make such an offer, but if they do, the Twins should accept it without hesitation.
The addition of Santana would give the Dodgers the best rotation in baseball and make them the favorites in the division. However, such a move would keep Pierre in the lineup (not a good thing) and rob them of two lavishly gifted young talents. Santana would dominate in the non-DH league and in the generally pitcher-friendly parks of the NL West, but he'd come at a steep price for L.A. It would be a tough call for Dodgers GM Ned Colletti; it would not be a tough call for Twins GM Bill Smith.
If we ever traded Kershaw, Santana would be the one of a few, or maybe even the only guy I'd trade him for. I would give up both Kemp and Santana. Pitcher's like Santana come around once a generation if you're lucky.
Another glorious day basking in the sun of the Andruw Jones signing and the very real possibility of a Dodgers World Championship.
The weather? Who cares when the Dodgers are ready to rock the baseball world?
I'd trade one as much it pains me for Johan, but not both.
thinking it over, yea probably wouldn't give up both kemp and kershaw. But santana is so tempting.
William F. Plaschke is the dumbest sportswriter in the history of western civilization!
If we wait, we can probably sign Santana after next season and not give up any good young talent. It is going to be expensive and long term to acquire Santana. If we do trade for him it must be contingent on signing him to a contract extension for 4 or 5 years. I for one do not like long term mega-bucks contracts. Especially for pitchers. They rarely work out well for the team. I am a proponent of stocking the farm system with lots of good arms and developing them. Get position players via free agency to fill holes. Our farm system is producing quite well and we do not need to tie our hands with long term overpriced contracts. It almost always comes back to haunt you. Giants are already regretting the Zito signing and will for many years. It handcuffs them now and in the future.
By the way, I am happy that the Giants are in that predicament. LOL
The price tag for Santana is way too high, both in players and contract demands. That is much too risky. How often has a long term contract on a pitcher really worked out well anyway? Look at Brown, Hampton, Zito, etc. Kershaw has Santana potential. Stay with him! And don't trade Kemp!
Here is an opportunity Ned should pursue with all diligence:
"Acquiring Jones also allows the Dodgers to entertain offers for speedy center fielder Juan Pierre, the former Cub whom Guillen adores from their days together with the Marlins. The Sox are still in need of a legit leadoff hitter, and Pierre would team well at the top of the Sox' lineup with newly acquired shortstop Orlando Cabrera — Williams' lone bright spot this offseason — in the No. 2 spot. Say what you will about Pierre, but he would be an improvement over current leadoff favorite Jerry Owens.
And adding Pierre might make more sense than re-acquiring Rowand.
The Sox are still weighed down by an aging, slow middle lineup. Rowand, 30, will provide pop — and better defense in center field — but Pierre would add the speed element Guillen has been craving.
Pierre, 30, signed a five-year, $44 million contract last offseason with the Dodgers. He is among the crop of recent free-agent center fielders — a group that includes the Los Angeles Angels' Torii Hunter and Gary Matthews Jr. — who landed five-year deals, setting the bar for Rowand.
Yes, Pierre's on-base percentage has slipped since an impressive .374 in 2004, but he has stolen at least 45 bases in each of his seven full major-league seasons, including a career-high 64 in 2007."
That is the move that makes sense. An outfield of Ethier, Jones, and Kemp would be a dream for LA. Don't blow it now! Since everybody seems to want to blow money on players, blow it on Kuroda if you have to, but keep the young players intact and the future will indeed be bright!
That would be great, however Ken Williams has gone on record as saying that he's looking for guys that get on base. Pierre does not fit that.
The White Sox apple is ripe. Pick it Ned. Eat half(or more) of Pierre's salary and get it done. Everyone will benefit, most of all Pierre. He is a good guy and he could actually help the WSox. The Dodgers and their fans will also be very happy. Everyone wins.
Yeah red i posted it last night too..i'd buy that writer cocktails if i could. IGet it done Ned.
If we were to dump Pierre and grab a FA pitcher just to add to the mix I will be so happy with our offseason
Hiroki Kuroda
Carlos Silva
Livan Hernandez
Freddy Garcia
Kyle Lohse
Bartolo Colon
Jason Jennings
Jon Lieber
we gotta find a taker somewhere… get a mid-reliever back or something.
Future headline:
"The Los Angeles Dodgers traded likable speedster Juan Pierre to the _______ (fill in the blank) in the continued reshaping their outfield. GM Ned Colletti was quoted as saying, "We wanted to give Juan an opportunity to play his natural position. He's a great guy and and a great teammate and asking him to switch positions at this point in his career is just something we didn't feel we had the right to do."
I just heard Ned on the radio. He really hopes we get the Japanese arm, if not he is willing to trade one or maybe two of our guys for an ace.
Nothing about JuanGone.
Great headline! I hope that Ned jumps on it.
LA Times
The Dodgers are reportedly among the teams circling Japanese pitcher, Hiroki Kuroda, currently of the Hiroshima Carp. [Note: I've seen a Carp game in Hiroshima. The concessions – including noodle & fish cake soup served in a bowl sans utensils — were among the highlights.]
I like the idea of reaching out to a quality import. Signing such an arm would allow the Dodgers to hold onto their prospects.
But what do we know about Kuroda-san?
Prospect Insider gives us a comprehensive scouting report on the 33-year-old pitcher:
Kuroda sits 90-92 with a four-seam fastball that shows good leverage, although only a fair amount of sink. He will touch 93-94 at times and with good arm side tail that is very effective against right-handed batters.He has solid command of the fastball and is not afraid to elevate the pitch to change planes to give the hitter something else to look at, which is ideal since the 33-year-old does not throw a curve ball.
He surrendered 20 homers in his 179 2/3 innings, which is a solid number considering the size of the ballparks, but would benefit greatly from Safeco Field's spacious alleys.
Kuroda uses a true slider in the way that fellow Japanese hurler Daisuke Matsuzaka does, with good depth and varying velocities. Kuroda will typically rush his slider to the plate in the 84-86 mph range, but will need to keep the pitch down more consistently in the states.
At times he'll fall in love with his slider a little bit, which is consistent with other Japanese pitchers.
Kuroda's fork-split is his best pitch and the one in which he will record the majority of his strikeouts. He's capable of throwing it for strikes, but it's much more effective as a change-of-pace offering that falls off the table into the dirt.
He will induce some swings and misses with it as it travels to the plate in the 82-86 mph range.
The Scoop:
Kuroda is the class of the three free agents and will get the most interest but he profiles as a No. 3 at best, depending mostly on how well he adapts to the patient approach of the hitters in MLB.
He's slow to the plate but has a relatively compact and clean delivery that gives his fastball some late life. Needs to improve holding runners (this will be something all four scouting reports will read, as it's generally not a strong area for Japanese pitchers).
Considering the domestic market, Kuroda, even at 33 years old, could command a contract in the $9-11 million range, for at least three years.
"He could blow, like most of the starters that have come from Japan," said a scout that saw the three free agents this past summer. "But he is the one the group of starters that stands out."
There's no doubting that Erik Bedard would be a solid addition. But there might be more value in someone like Kuroda – not so much monetarily, but as a means of preserving the outfield depth. And if, by chance, Kuroda didn't work out and the Dodgers were in desperate need of a starter, they can always trade one of their outfield bats at the deadline. There's no reason to believe that a Dodger prospect would have any less value on July 31st than he does now. In addition, the organization will have a much better feel for Kemp's full potential in mid-season than they do now.
Thanks Jungar. Great info.
Personally I feel that one of the outfielders must be traded before the season begins. I don't think Ethier will accept a platoon with Pierre, or Kemp and vice. We know Druw will play most everyday. It will create the same problems we had last year with 4 OFs (pierre playing everyday while being the least capable). Colletti likes depth but depth creates problems when you have too many starters that all deserve to start. Nomar v. Loney. Etheir v. Kemp v. Gonzo. Last year we had problems in the clubhouse not b.c of age but because of playing time. Ned can't let this happen again. Everyone needs defined roles. One of the OF's has to be traded and it better be pierre.
i agree with everyone…its unfortunate but pierre has to go. pierre is a good guy but doesnt fit with the dodgers.
also i think that the dodgers have to go with a set of OF's going into spring training rather than a 4 OF platoon. lets avoid what happened last year!!!
It is simple, to put the best team out there, you need to get rid of Pierre. Admit your mistake and move forward. Keeping Pierre makes us a weaker team and compounds the mistake. You can still salvage some credibililty by eating his contract and moving with a better team.
moving on with a better team.
Moving Pierre is a must. The signing of Jones will only improve the Dodger's offense significantly if the outfield is Ethier, Jones, and Kemp. If it's Jones, Pierre, and Ethier or Kemp, you really haven't accomplished anything offensively. Why is this so hard for Colletti to understand? Pierre is a great guy and deserves to play where his strong points are needed and can be fully utilized. That is not the Dodgers at the present time. Two leadoff hitters proved ineffective last season and must be recognized as a mistake and move on. It's silly to talk about needing to add offense to the Dodger attack and then trading away offense. Please don't make another foolish move like that.
red all evidence points that Coletti does understand. Seriously… announcing to baseball we are moving him to LF is like saying we are trading him. He isn't gonna say anything bad about a guy on his own team. Plasckke might but you cant tell me Ned thinks JP is a better player than Kemp or Ethier.
Now to tackle the issue of a modified SLG for good runners. Jungar said that he would credit JP with 18 extra bases taken above the average runner on 1 to 3 and 2 to home. This is in addition to his 64 SB on 81% success. JP had 236 TB on 668 AB. Of course, SLG was designed to give a reading of the value of pure hitters advancing runners and themselves on the basepaths. We all know that JP is not a pure hitter, but a slap hitter in the mold of Maury Wills. JP's strength is not in advacing runners with his hitting. However, with JP matched with Furcal or other leadoff base-stealing type, got on base last year at a .331 clip, while Furcal got on at .333. Statistically, we could expect both to get on .333 x .331 = .110 or 11% of the time. I believe that it was more often, but this overlooks the effect of Furcal distracting the pitcher and infielders so JP increases his success rate. On those occasions when both are on base (1st and 2nd), a double steal is possible. Double steals with those two increase the chances both will be safe. Furcal likes to steal third anyway. Tell me, what is the difference between a double that sends a runner from first to third and a slap hit followed by Furcal and JP stealing third and second? This scenario happened a couple of times in 2007. Of the approximately 89% of the time that they were not on base at the same time, JPs hits were about .667 x .331 = .221 or 22.1% of the time without Furcal on base (this includes having pitchers, PH, or the 8th batter on base). Please indulge me that most of the time that Furcal was not on, JP was on base alone. Going back past the 8th batter is not helpful, because there are only 3 outs to an inning (8, 9, 1 would be three outs– either one of them is on or the Dodger's at bat is over). So, if JP bats 2, the likelihood is that either Furcal will be on or there will not be a runner on 2nd when JP reaches 1st. My point is that if Furcal is ahead of JP or if no one is one when JP gets on, a stolen base or extra base taken by JP is equivalent to another TB. This would not be the case for batters 3 to 6, who are valued by teir ability to advance runners ahead of them. Their most indicative statistics are SLG and RBI (which is a situational differentiator– good RBIs and poor SLG indicate that the hitter is more successful when runners are on than when they are not). JPs most important statistics are runs scored, steals, OBP, and the extra base.
So, the bottom line for a 1 or 2 hitter of the Punch and Judy variety, is that the 64 steals and the 18 extra bases can be added to TB whe calculating SLG to get a modified SLG for hitters early in the order. So, add 236 + 64 + 18 = 318 modified TB. Divide by 668 AB and we get a modified SLG of .476 for JP, a 2 hole batter. If he stole more bases or added to his BA, he would improve this stat, which measures what he is paid to do. It is not the same criterion for which you pay a 3 to 6 hole batter; it is a different job on the team. We could call this a bases advanced stat (BS for short). Obviously, the other stat we would like to see get better is OBP. His best OBP is .374, so he has potential there, too. He scored 96 runs, so that compares with other 1 and 2 hitters.
This is how to package JP for trade. It's my story and I'm stickin' to it. If you have a better plan, I want to hear yours.
Pierre and 12 million dollars to the White Sox for Ehren Wassermann.
Do it Ned. **** trade Juan Pierre and 12 million dollars to the White Sox for anyone on the roster.
Money, why didn't I think of that? Silly me, but I bet you enjoyed my BS statistic 🙂
Incidentally, if JP forces out the pitcher, it gives the pitcher a chance to rest while JP gets the chance to steal second and third. Forcing out Furcal isn't so good, except JP has better success stealing. That's where bunting comes in.
Oh yeah, remember the WS when the Astros lost because they couldn't execute a suicide sqeeze with the potential winning run on third? That wouldn't happen to JP 🙂
Seriously, all young players used to be taught how to bunt. It is becoming a lost art. As usual, the Dodgers were among the best, with JP having 20 SH and Penny having 7, Lowe 6, Bills 4, and Wolfe 3. JP led all batters with 20 SH, followed by 14 for Maine and Vizquel. Maine did 14 in 76 PA and Cook did 13 in 60 PA, for a SH/PA ratio of 21.7%!
So, JP led all batters in both leagues with 20 SH, while Cook led all batters with at least 60 PA with a SH/PA ratio of .217. Maybe COL should bat Cook 2nd! Brilliant!
Just one more reason the White Sox should want JP in a trade for a SP.
Wait a minute, maybe we should acquire Cook. He had an ERA of 4.12, a SH/PA of .217, and had no errors in 2007, while he had 34 assists (more than any outfielder). That's it, we play Cook in CF because his assists – errors lead something. See how useful this kind of analysis is!
i like andruw jones. i just dont like the idea of getting another CF when you have a guy like matt kemp who you can train and already has a good bat.
i just dont want our young talent to be traded away.
not sure if this has been posted…
Keith Law:
In a vacuum, this is an outstanding signing for the Dodgers. Had Andruw Jones had a season closer to his 2006 or 2005 performances, he would have been in line for a five- or six-year deal in the $100 million area.
Jones is still one of the best defensive center fielders in the game, and up until 2007 — when he allegedly played with a hyper-extended elbow — was good for an OBP near .350 and 30-40 homers every year. He's also about to turn 31, so he's still in or close to his prime as a hitter. And the Dodgers get the advantage of two of his peak or near-peak years without having to sign him into his mid- or late 30s.
The Dodgers, however, do not play in a vacuum. On the one hand, this could just be an acknowledgement that the Juan Pierre contract was one of the worst of our time, so the Dodgers are treating it as a sunken deal, which they should do. (This would make them the second team to do this with a bad center fielder signing from last winter, on the heels of the Angels' signing Torii Hunter two weeks ago after getting Gary Matthews Jr. the year before.)
On the other hand, this could mean the Dodgers intend to deal either Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier for one of the top starting pitchers on the market, such as Erik Bedard. Trading either of those guys would hurt the Dodgers' offense — any scheme that puts Pierre in an everyday role hurts their offense almost as much as it hurts my eyes — but trading Kemp for anything less than a Bedard or a Johan Santana will come back to haunt the Dodgers for years.
Or, should they keep Kemp but send him to Triple A or relegate him to part-time duty, they'll retard his development, since Kemp is still raw as a baseball player and needs reps at the big-league level to continue to work in areas like pitch recognition and reading fly balls off the bat. They could make out better if they trade Ethier, who is just a fringe-average corner outfielder and unlikely to produce at a higher level than this, but that still hurts their club by giving Pierre 600 at-bats that should go to someone who can hit.
Andruw is a better CF than Kemp will ever be. Kemp belongs in RF, where his arm can discourage 1 to 3.
Kemp may become a 40 to 50 HR guy, but Andruw has already done it. We'll find out next year if Kemp can jack 35 or more. I am hoping for 25 from him. If he does that, bats above .300, and stays healthy, it will be a great first full year.
Picking up JONES is the perfect move if we didn't have Pierre or maybe if we had the DH. Notice I don't say anything about trading Pierre, not only do I think this would be hard to do BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY it seems that they, or at least, Colletti, is HAPPY with him OR he doesn't want to admit his mistake. It just about makes it INEVITABLE to trade either Kemp or Ethier. If nothing happen in the very near future one of them will be CRYING to be traded. In my opinion I hope that it's not in a trade for a pitcher but whoever it is for, I hope we get something we really need. Too bad, we as fans, can't do anything about it, except ACCEPT what ever happens.*************************************************************They didn't print my letter to the Voice of the People, in response to Pete Hamil's column on O'Malley, but they did print one response to it that had nothing to do with the column. Pete was discribing the feelings of Dodger fans, in Brooklyn, when they left Brooklyn and how they feel now. This guy wrote about O'Malley's accomplishments. What really gets me mad is they printer a letter from a woman that said she was very happy O'Malley made it to the HOF, because now she could finally go over to his plaque and spit in his face. all I can say is GO DODGERS
Rather than harp on the negative I'll accentuate the positive: KEEP KEMP.
Cue the music!
"Accentuate the positive…"
Ethier/Jones/Kemp OF
"Eliminate the negative…"
Pierre to the Chisox.
Seriously, I'm certain JP is a great guy, just like Josh and others are always saying, a fine teammate and a hard, dedicated worker, but he just isn't good enough anymore and needs to be shipped NOW while he still has some value. This year maybe it only costs $12M (1/3 of what he is still owed) to trade him, but as he declines (and speed guys over 30, like JP, do decline, sometimes quite quickly), it might cost $13.5M (1/2 of what he would be owed) or maybe DFAed, costing the whole $27M!
Help us Kenny Williams, you're our only (or at least best) hope!
(And if not Chicago, maybe Texas, as others have suggested, perhaps for Padilla, a swap of bad contracts)
(Thanks to kahliforni for the inspiration, obviously.)
I love this from Joe Sheehan of SI on the Jones signing:
"One year or two, this is a fantastic deal for the Dodgers, who get back-end-of-peak years from a Hall of Fame player without committing to his decline phase. Jones will bounce back in 2008, and he'll be a seven-win player over the two years of the deal. That's an enormous addition for a team that has been shooting itself in the foot for two long. What it means for Ethier or Matt Kemp is something that can be hashed out, but again, the player in the way isn't Jones, it's Pierre, who was a bad signing at the time, and remains so today. The Dodgers have an opportunity to show just how well they understand sunk costs by relegating Pierre to a fourth outfielder's role, to which he'd be reasonably suited. It would also give us a chance to test the whole "character" framework, to see if the fourth-best outfielder on the roster is able to accept that he, in fact, is that, and sublimate his desire to play more for the good of the team. That's leadership, right?"
The entire article can be found at http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/06/bp.andruwjones/index.html
and it's full of intrigue.
people please understand…THEY AREN"T GOING TO BENCH A GUY THEY ARE PAYING $11 million. pierre isnt going anywhere. jones is just another panic move by colletti. say goodbye to kemp and his 40 HR's next year…just like we did to piazza, konerko, and pedro.
and why do we trust colletti on signing questionable free agents. remember when jason schmidt came off of a dissapointing year in 2006? well good ole ned signed him for…well, you know how much
Bill Russell, who batted either 2 or 8 his whole career, had a lifetime .263/.310/.338/.648
His OBP was highest in 1982 at .357
Russell had .269/.336/.351 in 1974 and .278/.304/.360 in 1977 on 634 AB.
He was 16 SB and 7 CS in 1977 his best year for steals, despite being the fastest Dodger on the basepaths. Steal is a skill which is distinct from being fast. Russell batted behind Davey Lopes and in front of Garvey for most of those years, when he wasn't batting 8th. In an 18-year career, Russell had 483 BB and 667 K. So, he didn't walk, but he didn't K.
Sound like anyone else we know? Pierre is a better hitter in OBP and AVE and K than Bill Russell, who started whenever he wasn't hurt. Russell came up to the majors as a CF, but migrated to SS, where he played most of the time. He had an arm a bit weaker than Furcal, but still strong. He often threw fast runners out from the fringe of the grass, going away. He had good range, but was error prone. (He had 39 Es in 1974). Garvey saved him from many Es.
Pierre is making $7.5 million this year, not $11 million. His contract was $44 million for 5 years (less than $9 million on average– but with deferred compensation, part of his pay comes later).
I will stop bashing you for the time being because I LOVE the signing of Andruw, particularly for only 2 years. I wonder if Ned will deal Kemp, Ethier or Pierre. I hope its Pierre who goes. If Ned gets Kuroda and finds a way to get rid of Pierre and doesn't do anything stupid I will consider it a successful offseason! VAMOS DODGERS!!!!!!
That is great. Trade Pierre and agree to pay all the deferred money. Just unload him. He is a detriment to this team.
I get that Ned may have over paid for Juan Pierre, what I don't get is why there are so many…. many stupid dodger fans who insist that he should be benched. Yes I too remeber a few games where he did not do the right things at the plate, but he was also being bounced around the line up by that fool Grady little. He's a lead off guy, perhaps a 2nd in the order guy. I remember Grady batting him 6th one game. Forget about the money, just compare his numbers to the other lead off hitters in both leagues. He played every game along with hitting .293 , 196 hits , 64 stolen bases, and only struck out 37 times. I know he needs to walk more for a lead off guy, but what **** are all of you people smoking. Compare his numbers to Gary Mathews Jr,Torri Hunter, and even Andruw Jones last year. Now compare the contracts they all recieved. Don't get me wrong, all those guys are great players but none of them were as productive as Juan Pierre last year. With a healthy Frucal along side of Pierre, things will turn around this year. The addition of Jones and the emergance of Kemp, Loney, and Martin who already has arrived, Pierre will score a lot more. Pierre has had around 200 for the last five years. Pierre is by no means my favorite player, but he sure does not deserve all the hate some of you have been dishen out.
For one it is not hate. It is the clear realization that he is not our best option in center or left field. Displeasure with him is not hate.
Secondly, if he is so good, how come we can get no takers when we want to trade him even when we will eat part of his salary?
Using negative adjectives to describe Dodger fans/bloggers is more akin to hate than expressing displeasure with Pierre.
I can comfortably speak for everyone here when i say that NOONE HATES JP AT ALL. However, he does not belong in our outfield. Compare those guy's numbers and contracts to Andre if you really want to see something shocking. Its more about defense that anything with JP– he has no arm, and speed is irrelevant in LF. Sure he brings a unique skill set, however not one significantly different than Raffy. Simply put, i will take Ethier's 15-30 HR, 80 RBI's, and really good defense over Pierre's 60 SB, 0 HR, and 40 RBI. And Why you might ask? SB are valuable, right? They sure are, which is why we are so lucky to have Raffy (can steal 40 bases a year), Martin (easily another 20), and Kemp (probably 30 with refinement and experience) JP doesnt give us enough of anything that we dont already have to justify starting him over Andre. And please dont blame it on the lineup Tommy– he bat second the entire year, except for like 10 games where he was dropped..
Well said Ewk!!
If Pierre can beat out Jones, Ethier, Kemp or even Repko for a starting spot, more power to him…but please, let's make decisions based on merit and skill–not consecutive game streaks or dollar bills.
Don't misinterpret fans' preferences as hate. Juan Piere is acknowedged to be a very nice person, and none of us know him personally. He has some good qualities as a lead-off hitter: he has speed & makes contact. However, his obp is low for a lead-off hitter, and he has no power at all. He poses no threat to pitchers as he stands at home plate. He rarely works the count deep enough to draw a walk. A large percentage of his hits are ground balls that squeak through the infield…otherwise known as luck. Besides, we already have a lead-off hitter: Rafael Furcal.
He has a weak throwing arm which is often exploited by baserunners taking extra bases. In other words, his stolen bases are somewhat negated by the stolen bases that he gives up by allowing hitters to stretch singles in to doubles.
If we didn't have Furcal to lead-off there could be a reason to keep Pierre, but JP's low obp & lack of power do not serve us well at the top of the line-up. Though Vinny would say that "speed knows no slump", as JP ages his speed will decline to a point where he will have no quantifiable skill.
Ethier is a more preferred option to play LF. His obp and slg are higher than JP's and he works the count deep enough to walk. His throwing arm is much stronger than JP's. I think what you interpret as hate for JP is really just a preference among the fan-base to keep Kemp & Ethier as opposed to JP. There are a lot of us out here who fear that Colletti will trade Kemp or Ethier now that we have Jones, instead of severing the weakest link: which is Pierre.
"Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in. …"
thanks Tommy.
If by now anyone thinks JP is good then you will never be turned and that's fine. Heck even Coletti has turned.
Ditto on jboydstun's last sentence…
Gagne a… Brewer
Spanner and Tommy are not resonding.
Hey jhall. can you post a link for the article that says we offered to trade Pierre and pay his salary? I may be wrong but I think you are mixing up fantasy and facts. Not saying JP is better than Ethier etc. but Raffy, Nomar, the bench and La Rroche for the most part ****** last year also but all you focus on is JP. You had 24 posts the other day on how JP *****. We got the message. Do you really think Ned is sitting at his computer reading this blog? I'm wondering what some of you are going to post about if JP is traded. The horse is now glue, nothing left to beat. Those two are probably not responding because, like many, are leaving this blog because it's always the same Pierre bashing. It gets old.
Just my opinion , I could be wrong.
I, like many in here, am not a Pierre basher, but rather, a Kemp supporter. Therein lies the supposed venom. If people would quit running Kemp out of town for no apparent reason other than gossip and innuendo, maybe all the Pierre bashing would stop. All I ask Colletti and Torre to do (as if I matter) is to play the best three outfielders. Period. And quite frankly, Pierre is fourth on my depth chart.
good post dodgerblue…i totally concur. It gets old around here, same thing day in and day out. But it's the offseason, and there's no games to talk about, no lineups to rant about, and now parking fee's to complain about. So as a result,
As a result, the Pierre bashing is here for us to enjoy. Thankfully, most have acknowledged that it's not a personal thing with Pierre, and his hard work and "good guy" persona is well recognized. Unfortunately, his on-field play, and accompanying statistics do not line up to his off-field traits like his character and work ethic, which no one can complain about.
I agree, if anyone has a scenario, which indeed happened, where NED had a deal in place to send PIERRE packing somewhere, and didn't (for whatever reason), then by all means, provide us the details, and any link/reference, so we can continue to talk about how poor of a job Ned is doing so far at "addressing" our needs and we can all call for his head. So far, it's all speculation as to what will happen with Pierre, and until we ourselves are in Ned's office or are part of the Dodger's management, we have no idea what is going on.
and for the record, i'll be glad if Pierre can get traded for something decent. Either a middle reliever or a bad contract player that can contribute. We don't really need Pierre as a 4th outfielder when we have guys like d.young and repko who could assume that role. So let's hope Ned can work something out this offseason to get it done. Afterall, last time I checked, Spring Training isn't starting this week.
Is there any evidence that Torre or Ned want to run Kemp out of town? I think the consensus around this blog, from what i've read, is that we all want to keep Matt Kemp at all costs. Even for a deal for miggy, or santana, most of us would not be willing to give up Kemp, except for 1 or 2 people that I can recall from the top of my head.
Matt Kemp's name is coming up in articles/internet reports because of the Dodger's interest in players like Bedard, Cabrera, Santana etc. As a result, the teams that have the Bedards, Cabrera's, etc, want Matt Kemp among other top young players. If the Dodgers management were so quick to run Kemp out of town, I would imagine that it would have happened already.
Now to say that it won't happen, and Kemp won't get traded if the deal is "right" (whatever that means?), but I havent seen any indications, openly from dodgers management, that Kemp is on the trading block, like how Miggy/Santana/Phil Hughes/Melky Cabrera were so openly on the trading block.
The Voice of the People, Daily News( N. Y.) printed another funny letter about O'Malley. This guy wrote that he believes that O'Malley rightfully belongs in the HOF because he brought us the Mets. Let me get my letter, which they haven't printed, out of the way. "Never Forgive, Never Forget", Pete Hamil's column 12/5/07. I'd just like Pete and anyone else to know I'm an old Brooklyn Dodger fan, still living in Brooklyn and I'm not cursing the news of Walter O'Malley's induction into the Hall of Fame. Yes, I hated him- even though he tried desparately to find another spot in Brooklyn to build a ballpark for the Dodgers- (for leaving Brooklyn) moving some 3000 miles away and breaking my heart. By following the team through the newspapers, magazines, radio TV and by remaining a Dodger fan till this very day was in some way a sign of forgiveness. I now follow the Dodgers online. I now feel that no one is more deserving than him to be in the HOF. He truly made baseball a national game. ***The VOP proberbly looks at me as a Dodger and purposely will not print my letter.************* BTW has any one heard about the Yankees wanting to trade Hideki Matsui to our hated Giants and the Giants can't wait to ablige them. MAN+++++ just when I was so happy Bonds left them.********I know every body heard that rumor that the Whitesox would like Pierre as their leadoff hitter***MAN OH MAN if that's true it would be cause for a celebration****and maybe we can all get some sleep******** That's if Colletti will cooperate.
If I was a school teacher and I wanted to note the best blog above, I would have to pick EWK216 Dec 8 at 10:46AM PT It was well done and I agree with it.
It should be about playing the players that give you the best chance to win. Kemp, Eithier and Jones can all catch throw and drive in a run or 2. JP is a pinch runner at best, a one tool player. I'd rather see what Delwyn Young could do. To win ballgames you need run producers. Pierre is not that guy.
In deference to both sides of the Pierre fence, what I believe fears most of us "con" JPers isn't that we detest JP the man or even detest JP the ballplayer. I believe our fear is that while he's on the team two things can happen: 1. the Dodgers don't field their best outfield both offensively and defensively, which is clearly Ethier, Jones and Kemp; and 2. Kemp or Ethier are traded to accommodate Pierre.
In a perfect world (or the American League which has the DH), we probably don't even have this discussion. Pierre would stay, bat 9th and all would be well. However in the National, every position counts and you can't afford to give anything away and field a consistant winner. Gaining extra bases with your speed is great, but giving away twice as many with your arm isn't.
Personal opinion – I think Pierre sticks at least until the trade deadline for reasons I expounded earlier in this blog. That said, I hope that both Ned and Joe have the sense to make him the 4th or 5th outfielder.
Here as I see it are the reasons for keeping JP:
1. Positive influence in the clubhouse.
2. The three front liners will rest 12-15 times a season which means you could start JP and go with a "speed" line-up.
3. Great coming off the bench as a PR, especially for Kent late in the game.
4. Fine situational PH if you're in need of a sacrafice, or leading off for the pitcher in the 7th, 8th and 9th.
I'd say in that capacity he'd see 100 games/200 ABs, mostly in situations where he can positively influence the game. In other words you've created situations where he can be more successful.
Reasons for trading JP:
1. Contract. Even unloading part of that albatross would free up money for a middle reliever or 4-5 starter.
2. Its fairer to Pierre. His game is speed, which the Dodgers have plenty of. It is a waste of his full talent NOT to start somewhere.
3. It frees another roster spot for Young or to carry a PHing outfielder (as there's no way they carry 6 outfielders, though to Young's advantage he can play second as well.)
4. It eliminates the "obligation" of management and ownership to play and not sit a $9 mil. salary.
Just my opinions…
excellent post enchanted. I agree with you. As I and several other have noted there is no way around one of the 4 OF's being traded. Pierre will not be ammenable to being the 4th or 5th outfielder, and if he feels he is deserving of a starting spot why should he be? Any platoon or outfield rotation will no doubt lead to frustration for the players and for us as fans who know who the best 3 OF's are. As you said to trade Ethier to accomadate pierre is nothing short of lunacy, unless you honestly think he can help us will more than Ethier can. We are short on outfield depth in the organization. DYoung and Repko are our depth right now, and after than is an abyss. I think it would be very foolish to trade even Ethier because we have very limited outfield depth and he is a solid, young, and cheap option.
Even with JP traded I'm still not sure they don't go out and get another "Clark" and send Young down. I just doubt Ned's that committed to youth to where he won't carry at least one veteran OF (which is one of the reasons I think JP stays for awhile.) Think you might do disservice to Young as well sitting on the bench. Any OFers go down though and he's the call-up replacement, not Repko or whomever.
I'd like to see Nomar as the super infield sub as well and give LaRoche a legit shot at third. With the exception of maybe 2nd, he can spell the rest of the infield 12-15 games a year and be the RH PH on days he doesn't start. Would probably give him a good 250 AB and keep him healthy all year. Expensive ABs, but that contract comes off after next year as well.
I think LaRoche will get another opportunity to play 3B, since I understand Nomar is willing to do what he can to help the club. Laroche will get a longer look now, I hope, since Jones is here, to prove he can perform for the Dodgers as well as he does elsewere. I wish him luck. I wish they straighten out the outfield situation and if they do you might see Young as a 4th outfielder. My greatest wish is that some other team would find a spot for Pierre and can convince Colletti to make a deal.
Looking at the Dodgers 40-man roster the way it is now, I see us going into the season with something close to this:
Brad Penny
Derek Lowe
Chad Billingsley
Jason Schmidt
Esteban Loaiza
Mark Hendrickson (Long Relief/Emergency Starter)
D.J. Houlton (Long Relief/Emergency Starter)
Joe Biemel (Left Hand Specialist)
Scott Proctor (7th Inning)
Jonathan Broxton (Set Up)
Takashi Saito (Closer)
Russell Martin
James Loney (1B)
Jeff Kent (2B)
Andy LaRoche (3B)
Rafael Furcal (SS)
Nomar Garciaparra (1B/3B)
Wilson Alvarez (2B/SS)
Andre Ethier (LF)
Andruw Jones (CF)
Matt Kemp (RF)
Jason Repko (OF)
Delwyn Young (OF)
We are short a back-up catcher though and then one open spot for either another guy on the bench or another arm in the 'pen. I know we need to do something about Esteban Loaiza at the back-end of the rotation. I would love someone like Silva in that spot. I am not sure Houlton is the answer out in the 'pen either, may need a more proven arm there, too. I would say Brazoban, but he needs to not rush back this time which is what I believe he did last year.
I have heard rumors of Pierre for a middle-reliever or a 4th/5th starter rumor and have also heard that the ChiSox and Rangers may have interest so I hope Ned explores those fully and doesn't go asking for too much.
I also caught on Yahoo! rumors that Tampa is inquiring about Ethier for Reyes or Wheeler. All I have to say about that one is, PLEASE NED, don't make that mistake.
Let's hope Colletti sees things as they really are in the OF and not as many of these so-called "sportswriters" do. Who do teams ask for?… Kemp and Ethier, not JP. Even if JP only made $100K a year other teams would still be asking for Kemp or Ethier. C'mon, this isn't exactly rocket science.
And I'm so tired of Dodger prospects getting their shots with other teams I could scream. I said before, Kemp deserves a shot in L.A. He may be a Piazza, he may be a Marshall, but we as fans deserve something too, and that's a home grown team you can identify with and root for year after year. All indications so far are that Kemp will be a monster bat, so why watch it develope in Minn or Bal? So the guy may be a little difficult to coach, but that was last season's coaches. Crimany, Bowa would probably challenge him if he got out of line, not that Mattingly and Torre couldn't handle it.
My gawd with the group they have now, the worst guy you bat 8th is Ethier or Martin (I'm giving LaRoche a little protection batting 7th.) THAT'S one solid line-up top to bottom.
IIFRATES: Can you provide me with a link to that Pierre for a middle-reliever or a 4th/5th starter and the Rangers interest? I already know about the Whitesox might be interested in Pierre as a lead off hitter. I find these rumors unbelievable but really like reading them. (THEY GIVE ME HOPE)I don't care to read about that last one.
Gagne for 1 year, $10 million? Don't let Saito hear about it…
In the bullpen: Brazoban will be there. Its not going to be a rush at that point.
Tsao will also be healthy
Seanez i think will be back with us.
And dont forget about Meloan– a really GREAT arm out of the pen in the minors. He could also prove to be a good starter.
We will find a backup catcher somewhere– a dime a dozen as someone said the other day….
I wonder what Larry Bigbie is doing/how he played in Japan this year???
Otherwise, no left hand bat off the bench– Wilson is switch i think?? No power though…
Silva is not the answer for our rotation. He's very hittable, and would be no better than Loaiza. He would be like Tomko revisited. If we can't sign Kuroda, or trade for Bedard/Haren/Blanton without surrendering too much, we would be best served to audition Stults, Houlton, Meloan, McDonald, or Elbert.
Just cause I was not on pins and needles sitting at my computer waiting for the overwhelming responce I knew i would get does not mean I was in hidding, means although I love the Dodgers I have a life. 2nd, for the fan that said Pierre's hits were luck. He has averaged about 200 hits for the last five years. You saying a 1,000 hits is luck. Again, like I said before, there are things Pierre needs to do better but not many guys drive themselves in. He is top of the order guy not a 3-4-5 guy. They were supposed to drive him in and they did not. And yes it is hate when you spend all of energy on one player who had good numbers and the only bomb you have to drop is his defence is lacking or he makes to much money. JP admitted he was not Andruw Jones. I think Matt Kemp is the future and I think most of you feel the same, but when he was running the bases like he had never played baseball before nobody was callin for him to be benched or traded. When he was dropping balls in the outfield, ya'll got over it. When Ethier went into his slump 2 years ago, did you give up on him. Why don't we just be happy with what we got, depth and lots of it. Is that not what wins titles. Does not every team blame injuries as reason they don't meet expectations. This is a good problem too have. Jhall said it was funny that I did not responed as if I were a bit shook up by his quick responce or as if the cat got my tounge. It not that at all. The fact is that some dodger fans, like fans of other teams I suppose are like sheep. They regergitate what they heard on sports talk radio as their own and act like most of us did not hear the same thing sitting on the freeway on our way home from work. The banter gets old. My argument is really not about Juan Pierre, although I stand by the points I made, its really about fans treating baseball and most importantly the Dodgers like Fantasy Roto Geeks they are. Don't get me wrong I am a total Playstation geek and my wife and kids hate when a new baseball game comes out, but I do not confuse my video games for the real Dodgers. As for the real Dodgers, we have to face the facts, we over paid for Pierre. No team is really going to touch him unless we throw in our best prospects, and Ned already said he would not trade multipule prospects for anyone. As for Repko, when he can play he changes game with his gritt. But he can not stay healthy. He got hurt again during his rehab at the end of the year. Nomar is my favorite Dodger, but he is as much to blame for last year as anyone. I know he was hurt again but his numbers were not there. I agree with who ever said he should be a super sub. He can probably do anything but pitch and catch, and he said he would do as much. There are still lot of options via trades to fill in at 3rd. As for the pitching that still needs to be the number one issue addressed. We do not need another ACE, but it would be nice, but we need guys to save the bullpen. We need guys in the rotation to eat innings and still some have some quality. Loiaza could be that but probably not. Freddy Garica is out there and if he stayed healthy could change to whole rotation. But the safe bet is Levan Hernandez. He eats lots of innings and by the looks of him everthing else, but he is winner that provides a good change up to the power guys in the rotation. He also swings a good bat and knows how to play the game. And for everyone who seems to be so concered about the check they sign to all the Dodger players, Hernandez would be cheap and Ned would not have to trade away farm to get him. As for the 33rd best prospect in baseball getting a shot at 3rd, did he not get some chances in some big spots and do nothing. Not saying he won't be good, but he wasn't better than Nomar and nobody really thinks Nomar should be starting. And by the way our pitching was not excatly lights out. Broxton choked when we needed him most and Penny and Billz were the only 2 that we could count on. I think Lowe and Broxton will pitch well this year, but our pitching still is a big mabey. We all thought our pitching was going to carry us last year and we know how that turned out. So let me bring this back to where I started with Juan Pierre. Juan Pierre and his glove or lack there of really is not the issue when it comes to the Dodgers woes. The infield gloves were far worse than JP's. The entire infield not only could not catch the ball, they could not stay healthy enough to play ie.,Nomar, Raffy, and Kent. I think JP played just about every game. Only Loney, Kemp, and Kent had better batting Averages and he had a 200 more at bats then all off them. JP had almost 100 at bats than the next closest guy on the team. He led the team in those so called" Lucky hits" and had 40 more than Martin who was behind him. Juan Pierre's numbers have been the same for 5 years. Someone please name the last productive Dodger we had that put up the same numbers for 5 years. Is this not what exactly we need. A player to live up to what he has always done. With all the questions we have on this team and yes Kemp and Loney are still questions although small ones, its nice to beable to pencil a guy in at the top of the order and know that he is going to get hits and he is going to steal bags and put preasure on the other teams pitching and defence. It seems to me that every year at the deadline, most teams are searching high and low for that spark plug at the top of their line up. We got two when some teams can't find one. And this is my last point. Someone used JP's lack of power as a reason why he can't play left cause it is a power postion. Well Second is not a power position and neither is catcher for most teams, but we have power at both those positions. So does it really matter if the power comes from Kent and Martin combind instead from left field. Think of it this way. Kent is pretty slow and he plays 2nd and most 2nd baseman are fast. Even Ryan Sanberg stole bases. Should we just tell Kent he can't play 2nd cause he does not fit the templet. I got a better idea, lets just utilize the speed from our left fielder with no power and our cather who should be slow but is anything but and use strengths of the team collectivly instead of the strenghts of a group of individuals. Any one ever heard of David Eckstien? They said he was too small.
Not really in much disagreement with what tommy 2 says. My big frustration with Pierre being Pierre last season was the fact that Little seemed more interested in keeping his consecutive games played streak alive that with his performance or where he belonged in the batting order. If Torre will disregard the games streak and have him compete in Spring Training with Ethier and Kemp, et al, may the best guys win and play in the regular lineup. Pierre shouldn't have a preferred position because he was given a lollipop contract and Colletti can't move him somewhere else. Let's just have a level playing field, and if he sits, he sits, and if he plays, he plays. Just let's have the best guys out there every day.
I mean, if you only want to discuss irrelevant stats likes Hits a season and Batting Average than sure, JP is a great player.
I'd put him in LF if we had no better player to play there, but bottom line is, we do. So it seems like you think we should just accept JP in left bc we have to, and you are trying to rationalize it, bc its just the way its going to be. And while i respect that approach to things generally, the whole point of a blog is to discuss other options and really to express the ideal– which is obviously Ethier, Jones, Kemp in the OF.. Always respectfully discuss of course– a lot of people forgot that during the season.
But i still cant see any other reasons as to why you think JP should play left over Andre other than his SB, #of hits (so irrelevant, esp. when you have more AB than any player in the majors and make more outs),and batting average…..?????????????????
Like you say Tommy– we have a speedy catcher where you dont usually have one. Why do we also need a speedy guy to play LF when we have a gapper w/power to play there instead. It's not like JP's speed in invaluable bc no one poses the exact same threat as he does…
And, no, depth does not win championships– that was pretty funny though….
I was reading the blog and I noticed some of you have gotten VERY repetitive with your posts. Now that Grady is gone every post on here has to do with Pierre bashing. Listen, I don't like him either and I am one of those people who would like to see him traded, but I will also try to find other things to post about once I think people have gotten my point. I know hes not a very good player… but maybe we should take it easier on Pierre and not dedicate EVERY post to how much we hate him…?
I agree that Pierre wasn't the only one to blame for last year's woes – the starting pitching was decimated by injuries, Nomar tanked compared to '06, and the single biggest problem, Little managed like they were a little league team (but don't get me started there – he's gone and that alone just added 5-6 wins.)
BUT let's face it, all of those extra bases JP allowed because of his arm allowed A LOT more runs to score than would have, and with the lack of power the team had last year, 1-2 runs suddenly became an insurmountable lead.
Are they more capable of overcoming bad defense this coming season? I'd say yes, but why put yourself in that position? Center or left, runners will still take the extra base on him, which means anykind of a single scores a runner from second, even one-hop at'em balls. I just don't think he brings enough to the table to overcome his shortcomings ON THIS PARTICULAR TEAM to be an everyday starter.
Offensively even if we take his speed into condsideration, Ethier still has an edge. Pierre gets a lot of hits by mere numbers – he gets more ABs by playing every inning of every game, rarely walks, and makes contact. No real luck is involved for all those hits, but many do come by sheer volume of plate appearances. If we do some simple projections of Ethier to JP based on ABs last season, here's what we have:
Pierre 668 96 196 24 8 00 41
Ethier 668 76 190 48 3 20 97
Can E steal a base – no. But his power moves the runners along at a better clip than JPs singles. Plus you put someone on base immediately in front of JP on the basepaths and that pretty much negates his stolen bases. Would E put up numbers like the above batting 2 or 8, no. But take 25% off those numbers and I think it'd be pretty close, which is still more productive than JP.
Now I suspect that as messagebear stated, [should nothing change] that JP and Ethier will compete for the LF spot as obviously Jones is a lock, and Kemp is close to one if Neddy doesn't do something stupid, and that's fine, maybe even as it should be. But Torre's no fool and I don't think it will take him too long to see the liability in left doesn't outway the speed. One of my fears though is that upper management dictates JP plays because of his contract alone and not his merits.
JP has a lot of worth to the Dodgers if they use him as I outlined in an earlier posting in "reasons for keeping JP." I just don't see him as an every down two-way player on this year's team.
JP as the 4th outfielder – is that fair to the Dodgers? I think yes. Is it fair to Pierre? No.
And therein lies the rub between the JP pros and the JP cons…
So far I give Ned a B on his moves… because I love the signing of Andruw and he hasn't done anything stupid like trading away Kemp, Kershaw, etc.. The grade would go up to a B+ if he could sign Kuroda. I don't know what we're going to do about not having a lefty in our starting rotation… I won't give Ned an A becuase I thought he should have resigned Wolf, especially at the price the Pads got him for. We need a lefty in our rotation and he should have resigned Wolf!!!
Dodgers reject O's package for Bedard
Peter Angelos' reluctance to deal in the AL East is not the only potential obstacle in the deal. Talent is another. According to one major league source, the Orioles recently discussed Erik Bedard with the Los Angeles Dodgers and asked for a package of prospects that included 23-year-old outfielder Matt Kemp, third baseman Andy LaRoche and 19-year-old left-hander Clayton Kershaw, the last of whom was the Dodgers' first-round pick in 2006 and reached Double A at the end of last season. Reportedly, the Dodgers rejected Baltimore's proposal out of hand. — Boston Herald
Good to see that Ned turned this deal down.
Gotta feel bad for the O's and Rays (and to a lesser extent the Jays) though, knowing year after year you can't compete in your own division.
I read TOMMYGUN'S post on Dec 9 at 5:49AM PT above. I call you tommy gun because you're either a fast typist or you must have spent quite awhile on that posting, **all in all, in my opinion,I liked it. ***The part I mostly agree with is that it doesn't matter where the power comes from. I actually was trying to think that way all summer, but I then came to the conclusion that we don't have enough power coming from these positions. **We are hoping that Martin, Loney, Kemp and the rest of our young can provide more this year and we certainly expect some from Jones & Kent. If we're lucky Nomar breaks out.OH yeah LaRoche. **Yes the more power from them the less we need from my name sake, Pierre.***I also know that he is one of the best hitters and base stealers in the game.****We have Furcal also***** But seriously, wouldn't you wish that Pierre was a power laden outfield with at least an average arm? or a right handed fielding infielder?*********Yes, Kemp is a lousy baserunner, but for a big guy he sure can run. I know potential is just a word, but those who should know say he's potentually powerful.***Yes we have depth but most players rather play than sit around waiting to bat. If Kemp has to wait for Ethier to break down or to give Jones a rest, I have a feeling he's not going to accept this like he did last year as a rookie. He'll only be hoping for Pierre's consecutive game streak to end.**or for a an road interleague game **He may get grumpy and want to be traded. **Of course he may beat out Ethier and the above will be Ethier instead. **All this if neither is already traded. **I think it stinks to have two guys with all that potential to be going through this.********** On pitching, I think we should trust the guys we got and I think Broxton has to get more confident. He may be thinking of the situation and builds his own pressure. *********As far as all these posts being too much about Pierre and Kemp, Isn't that the biggest problem at the moment?
I agree with someone on this board.(forgot the name)..We really need a left handed pitcher in our rotation..It's REALLY important…I would have given Wolf the deal the Pads did…our cheapest and maybe best option not to cost us our young players…now I don't know what they will do..even if they somehow get Kuroda..he's not left handed..We need to find a remedy without giving up half the team!
Getting a left handed pitcher isn't as important as getting a good pitcher period. I don't care if he kicks the ball to Russ, as long as he gets outs.
It's a long way from here to spring training and then to and into season. Ned Colletti has to use his mind. That mind of his is where most of what happens comes from and what has brought us here. He can only get financial advice & support from McCourt, we are not run by Hank Steinbrener. The only other source we can hope for are the other teams and their needs and I'm sure he has his own inhouse advisers. We can only wait and hope.
First I would like to thank enchanted. Not because I agree with you cause I don't, but for taking the time to have an original thought and arguement. I know that a good point can be shared by many people, but it is obvious that some of the post are just points being repeated. I don't care if anyone agrees with me and I do not have to agree with another point of view to atleast respect it. 2nd, Mr. NYU, you are either a Math Major/Professor or a Money Ball Billy Bean disciple. Average and hits are not exaclty irrelevant. I know that OBP is important, but did not Pete Rose and Tony Gwynn make their careers as being single hitters and having really good batting averages. And if a guy steals 64 bases, is that not like adding 64 doubles to his stats. I know stealing bases does not drive in runs but, if that guy is in the 1 or 2 hole, that really not his job, its to get into scoring postion. I do believe batting averages and hits are used to compare players in salary arbiration, to vote on player being considered for the Hall of Fame. We have Silver slugger and the batting title to represent exceptional averages. There is the "Mendoza Line" to illistrate players who are hitting near .200.Why, cause its relevant. Although hits and average are not the only important stats, they sure as **** are not irrelevant. Otherwise we might as well put Rob Deer or Tuffy Rhodes playing LF for us. I know a lot of people buy into the Money Ball concept that pretty much coinsides with Mr. NYU thoughts, but how has it worked out for Oakland. I totaly agree with DodgerDude. It does not matter weather we get a lefty or righty. We just need a good pitcher period. The Dodgers went a few years in the 90's with out a lefty until Bob Ojeda was signed as a free agent. We need a quality pitcher who eats innings. Levan Hernandez comes to mind. He would be a good change up to our power guys, he routinly throws 120 pitches a game and sometimes upwards of a 150. He eat 200+ innings a year and he is a proven winner. Not to mention he swings a good bat. He also would come cheap compared to other options. Freddy Garcia would be fantastic and would change the make up of the rotation, but we have not recovered from Jason Schmidt yet and the rotation does not need another question mark because of injuries. And this is the last thing I will say about the Pierre issue(I hope), So ya'll are clear I am a big Kemp and Ethier guy and not a giant JP guy, but he does the same job he has done for years puttin up the same numbers. The team knew exactly what they were getting with JP. He did not slump or play different than what he did in previous year. Yeah, his contract was a mistake, but not his mistake. Take it out on Ned if you like, but not on the guy who just does what he always has. And looking at the make up of the team as it stands now, Ethier may need to come off the bench just to give some threat of power in the late innings.
I will say again that LaRoche should not be judged on his at-bats in the 8 hole. He is miscast there. Put him anywhere else other than 1 and we will see if he is a big leaguer.
We know he has potential from AAA and Team USA. We will only know that he succeeds or fails at the next level if he has someone other than the pitcher batting next. He had 93 AB plus 20 walks. He got the walks because the pitcher was coming up next.
As far as Ethier and Pierre go, both are major league players. My vote is to try DY, who has much more upside than Ethier or Pierre. DY is 25, as is Ethier. Kemp is 23. If DY is not allowed to accumulate 450 or more at bats in 2008, he should go back to AAA, where he will continue to burn up the league (he was selected for Team USA, too– Where DY and LaRoche were team leaders).
To those who say, wait one more year for DY, I answer that Mays, Gehrig, and Ripkin were all started one day and never looked back. Their managers told them, "Don't worry about rookie mistakes, I will take the heat. Just keep swinging and playing hard, you have the talent, you will make it. I believe in you." This is something that Torre can say that Little and Tracy couldn't say, because their backs were against the wall.
You will laugh at me and say that DY is no Mays or Gehrig or Ripkin. You may be right, but many excellent players who fell short of those three were worth sticking with through their rookie years.
I went to some games at the end of '70, when Garvey was being tried out at 3B. Believe it or not, but Garvey was not disciplined at the plate, at first. It seemed like it was homer, double, or K. Claude Osteen had 93 at bats, too, and more RBI. Garvey took over at 3B at the end of '71, despite an OBP of .290. Cey came up at the end of '72 and was a much better 3B. So, did Alston bench Garvey in '73? At first, yes, but then he put a 5′ 10″ developing pure hitter at 1B. Alston always had 1-year contracts for 23 consecutive years, yet he knew what was right under the reserve clause. Everyone in baseball thought he was crazy to play Garvey at 1B, because he was of average height. Two things resulted. Alston assembled a very good infield of Garvey, Lopes, Cey, and Russell from 1971 to 1973. Alston's record went from 89 wins in '71, to 85 wins in '72 when Cey got his late season call-up, to 95 wins in '73, to 102 wins in '74.
Russell had his MLB call-up in 1969 (regular starter in 1972), Garvey and Buckner in 1970, and Lopes and Cey in 1972, they rented Jimmy Wynn (CF) to bat 4th for '74 and '75. The key back then, as now, was finding a 3B. The key insight, in the middle of '73, was moving Garvey from 3B, where he was error-prone with good fielding but wild throws to 1B, where he didn't need to throw. Cey was the answer at 3B, from which he displaced Garvey. To those of you criticizing Kent, I point out that Garvey never had a SLG of .500 for a season. He went 8 years in which his AVG was never below .297 ('77 with .297/.335/.498, 33 HR, 115 RBI, and 91 runs). So his most productive year (runs and RBI) was the one in which his OBP was lowest. Two elements were primary to this result: he was a good situational hitter and he had Lopes and Russell batting in front of him and Cey, Baker, and Smith batting behind him (in that order, 4 straight had 30 or more HRs). That year, Russell hit .278/.304/.360 and scored 84 runs with just 43 K in 153 games and Lopes hit .283/.372/.406 and scored 85 runs in 134 games. Russell advanced Lopes. This is the classic Dodger model for batting order:
Kemp or Loney
Loney or Kemp
LaRoche or Garciaparra
The problem is you can only carry 25 and, these days, managers like to have 12 or 13 pitchers. So, this leaves Ethier, Repko, Garciaparra, and backup catcher on the bench with the 13th being from the following list. There may be no room for DY, Hu, Abreu, and Valdez. DY is the one that hurts me most, but he must play regularly this year, either in AAA or MLB. He would be the 6th outfielder the way things look now. After how he has done in AAA, Team USA, and the late season call-up, that's just wrong. In addition to 156 HRs from 3 to 8, of which there were 125 from 3 to 6, the '77 team had Tommy John (20 wins, 2.78), Sutton (14, 3.18), Rhoden (16, 3.74), Hooten (12, 2.62), and Rau (14, 3.43). This is why we need another SP. So, trade Ethier and Pierre to get a good SP and you have:
LaRoche or Garciaparra
This is a line-up that could surpass 156 Hrs from 3 to 8, plus Martin batting 2. If Martin Ks too much, bat LaRoche 2 so when he walks, he has Kemp, Jones, Kent following. I have a feeling he would get better pitches there than at 8. When that happens, you will see his pop. Martin or Young may be the right one in the 8 hole to handle pitches off the outside part of the plate, at this point LaRoche is not that person. I would use spring to test Young in the 2 hole. Young hits S, so if he bats 2, that would help protect Furcal as he sets up to steal second against RHP. My favorite line-up would be:
Furcal (S) SS
Young (S) LF
Kemp [R] RF
Jones [R] CF
Loney (L) 1B
Kent [R] 2B
LaRoche [R] 3B
Martin [R] C
Against LHP:
Furcal [R] SS
Young [R] LF
Kemp [R] RF
Jones [R] CF
Loney (L) 1B
Kent [R] 2B
LaRoche [R] 3B
Martin [R] C
That's a Lefty killer.
Against RHP:
Furcal (L) SS
Young (L) LF
Kemp [R] RF
Jones [R] CF
Loney (L) 1B
Kent [R] 2B
LaRoche [R] 3B
Martin [R] C
Young and Kemp would get many fastballs 🙂
a) My name is Evan.
b) I am not moneyball at all, nor have i ever read moneyball, or have any problem whatsoever spending money. I dont even understand OPS to be completely honest. It's pretty well accepted that average is overrated- ESPECIALLY when a guy gets so many official AB's.
c) Tony Gwynn had a career .384 OBP and .461 Slugging. Pete Rose career .375 OBP– both with career Avg. over .300. JP hasnt had hit .300 or had an OBP over .331 for the last 3 seasons– so basically no correlation whatsoever.
d) YOU ALWAYS IGNORE DEFENSE.
It is his job to get into scoring position, which he cannot do if he doesnt get on base. Just look at the projections for Ethier if he had as many AB's as JP and seriously tell me you would rather have JP playing there and explain why.
common guyz dont u think we should leave pierre. lets leave Pierre at left i think he'll be good there.. We need him in the lineup because look anytime he gets on base he steals right.. so wat does that mean we have him in scoring position and now we have a quality RBI man in Andruw Jones who can drive him in unlike last year no player was good in the clutch i think that will change this year.. and with the surplus outfeild lets trade Eithier or Kemp for a top line pitcher lyk Erick Bedard or Joe Blanton and sign Kuroda..
Look how strong that rotation will be for next year..
1: Penny
2: Bedard or Blanton..
3: Lowe
4: Billingsly
5: Kuroda
There will not even be enough room for shmidt or Loiza and i think thats a good thing..
we can maybe move them to the bullpen..
In 729 plate apperances JP produced (run scored or rbi) 137 runs while hitting .293
In 70 less plate apperearnce, while hitting .222 Andrew Jones produced 177 runs.
Does anything more need to be said to illustrate the point?
In 505 plate apperance ethier produced 114 runs
In 311 Kemp produced 89 runs.
Just doubling Kemps (for sake of argument), which is still 100 less PA than JP he would produce
178 runs.
OK wat did i say was anyone good in the clutch? NO!! How many RBI's do u expect him 2 get he's a # 2 hitter.. His job is not 2 drive in runs..
or score them apparently
his job is to get on base and score runs… he doesn't get on base a lot, and for a guy with so many ABs, he doesn't score enough.
it's everyone elses fault but his of course. see thats the problem, it takes others both on offense and defense to help him be effective. Ethier does not need that help, would have 80 rbi in the 2 hole and score 95 runs and not need **** to go to middle CF to cut
We agree that Kemp should be protected. I say that Ethier should not.
Young is a better potential option and we can get a SP for Ethier. DY is not yet as good of trade bait as Ethier and I would cry if we lose DY for little value.
Repko is the insurance on defense and offense. Xavier Paul another promising MiLB option.
OK how come u guyz aint haiting on FURCAL HE DID WAY WORSE AND HOW BOUT THE LOVEABLE NOMAR WHO *****!!
lol… we hate on nomar a lot here buddy. Furcal was hurt and still provided good defense.
no one here loves Nomar and Furcal had one bad season in his career, played thru injury and was still better than JP while playing strong defense.
and no, no one did way worse than Pierre, because that is almost impossible.
jinx dodgerdude
haha… get out of my head!
If we can find a way to trade Ethier for pitching, I'm all for it. Kemp is much more valuable than Ethier and Pierre. Ethier on the other hand is marginally more valuable than Pierre. If we can package a deal that includes Ethier and any other minor leaguer (with the exception of Kershaw) and reel in a servicable, inning eating SP, we need to do it. If Pierre turns out to be a huge liability in LF, DY is a great insurance policy. I'm willing to bet that a package of Ethier/Abreu/McDonald could bring us a quality back-end starter.
He had great deffence right well check this out.. He had 27 errors in 2006 most in Mlb for a short stop and last year he improved slightly with 19 errors wow maybe thats a gold glove!!
Singing my song, charris!
While your idea isn't all bad charris, I think you're selling Ethier a little short by calling him marginally better than Pierre. He's got more patience, much more power, superior defensively, and most important of all, he's still getting better at age 25 just starting to enter his peak. Given the choice between Kemp or Ethier, i'd trade Ethier of course. But Pierre before anyone else. I really think that just by giving Pierre a starting everyday job, we make our team worse. I'll take an OF of Kemp, Jones, Ethier and the rotation as it stands now and all our prospects, over Pierre , Kemp, Jones, an added arm in the rotation with depleted prospects to trade from later. Of course it all depends on who we get back… but that's my basic stance.
Think about the fact that we had Tomko and Hendrickson (both for an extended period of time) in our rotation last year. if we can find a pitcher that gives us a 10-15 W/L record or better, we will easily win the NL West IMO.
You can't just talk about errors, what about range? He gets to more balls and has more chances to make errors than most SS. and again, Furcal was hurt, what's Pierre excuse?
jungar, I need your stat finding help buddy, what was Tomko and Hendrickson's combined starting record last year?
Hmm well lets see here..
Furcal had 27 errors in 06 while piere had Umm how many was it again OH YEA 0000000000 Nada Ziltch.. and last year he only had 5 errors wow.. I really think he needs an excuse right..
OH yea and pierre his whole carear has a total of 27 errors witch equals the amount that furcal had in 06 and in furcals carrear he had lets see Oh wow this is ugly..
178 errors!!!!
eduardo, SS and CF are much different positions. It's a lot easier to catch fly balls than it is to field grounders and throw the ball to 1st accurately. Furcal is hand's down a superior defensive player in comparison to Pierre.
1) Ethier is an exceptional upgrade of pierre. There's no way we should sacrifice Ethier unless its a cant turn down offer for a SP. How does starting JP every day help us…in LF no less. Its not like his arm will be hidden. Was LuGo's arm "hidden" in LF?
2) There's no way they will let DYoung start. It would be a victory for him to make the team period, forget about him starting.
3) Furcal despite his errors is regarded an excellent SS. He's saved our team runs. Pierre? well we all know…
Dang it your right eduardo…Furcal is a terrible SS and JP is a great player.
Which is why Ned is trying to trade Pierre and spent 36 million for 2 years to upgrade a spot JP already plays. Ask yourself why? Telling baseball you are moving a player to a spot he has never started a game in his career is like saying, make us your best offer, please….Furcal, even though this is the last year in his deal and could leave without getting us players in return is not even considered to be traded and that because JP is better, but of course.
charris. they combined for thirty starts and had 3 wins.
How about Ethier and Pierre to CWS for Garland (RHP) or Buehrle (LHP)? I know that Buehrle is a long shot, but Pierre and Ethier are better than Owens and Erstad last year.
CWS was playing th flavor of the day in OF, except for Dye.
eduardo we want the dodgers to win more than we want Juan Pierre to not be good..u know what i mean?
Shep..sox already traded Garland to the Angels for Orlando Cabrerra. I don't think we can trade both OFers either.
jspelk, I guess what I was trying to say is:
1. A reliable back-end SP is more valuable to the '08 Dodgers than the difference between JP and Ethier. think about how much worse LuGo's arm would have been in center, JP to left means less chances for his arm to be exploited.
2. Torre is not Grady Little, if Pierre isn't hacking it in LF, Torre would have no reservations starting DY.
3. Yes…absolutely.
that said, i like Ethier much more than Pierre, but as I said earlier if Ethier can bring us a low to mid 4 ERA, innings eater, I think you have to make that deal. Tomko and Hendrickson starting for the majority of the season killed our playoff chances. I think they won 2 games in something like 34 starts for us last year, those numbers could be wrong but how many games out of 1st did we finish?
eduardo, you're talking like a person who really doesn't know what they're talking about.
nevermind, refer to jungar's 3 wins in 30 starts.
30 starts and 3 wins? wow!
exactly dodgerdude, now tell me how Ethier is more valuable than Pierre and a reliable #5 guy?
I agree with you Charris. For all my JP bashing we need pitching help more…….kemp must stay though.
I see both sides of it charris. I don't think Ethier will fetch a innings eater mid 4 ERA SP alone, so we'd have to throw other guys in their too. And then we're stuk with 700 Abs from pierre. You're right about Torre not being Grady, and perhaps he has more power in the roster making decisions than Ned now, but I don't see DY getting a shot easily. We need everything to break right to have an above average offense as it is, I just hate to see Ethier who is a solid player sacrificed for the sake of pierre. I would rather take a shot on Colon, Clement, Lieber etc (like we SHOULD have done with wolf) and kick pierre to the southside… of chicago.
Because, the difference between Ethier and Pierre is significant. I agree we need another SP, but not at the expense of letting JP start in LF and **** up another 650 ABs. Kuroda is close to what we could expect to get for Ethier plus prospects. I'm not against using the prospects to acquire pitching, I just don't want JP in LF.
I agree with you as well jungar we need to keep Kemp, BTW thanks for those numbers. don't get me wrong, I would love an OF of Ethier/Jones/Kemp but we need pitching. After next season, Lowe is gone which makes our rotation that much more vulnerable, the year after that, Penny is gone and we'll be left with who Billingsley? I do think certain pitcher will emerge from our farm system (Kershaw and Elbert) but we need to start getting depth in our rotation to prepare for the future.
Penny, Lowe, Bills, Kuroda, Schmidt/Kuo/Loaiza. We try that out for a few months. Later, if these options for #4 or 5 rotation spots all fail, we can bring up McDonald, Kershaw, or Scott Elbert. We can also trade for a SP mid-season when they would cost us less in terms of prospects. We have options right now, so we shouldn't say we HAVE TO do anything. That's when Ned gets in trouble, when he thinks he has to do something (i.e. Pierre).
At face value, a position player is responsible for 11% of a team's offense per game. A starting pitcher is responsible for 20% of a team's games
long-term, i share your concern for pitching. we should look to extend Penny. I'm good with letting Lowe walk. I look forward to Bills, Kershaw, Penny, and who knows after that… but with those three, that's a strong rotation.
How about Ethier ++ to DET for LHP Robertson?
Ethier is better than Monroe and Thames.
>Penny, Lowe, Bills, Kuroda, Schmidt/Kuo/Loaiza….We have options right now, so we shouldn't say we HAVE TO do anything.
We don't have Kuroda. If we did, I would shut up about trading Ethier.
It was assuming we get Kuroda, obviously. I'd rather sign Kuroda or Carlos Silva than trade Ethier.
Ethier is sweet– i want him in my LF for a long time… For the record, Blanton is no where near a front line starter. I'll do Ethier for Blanton straight up, but nothing less and nothing more. The kid has so much potential,and the alternative is JP so he should stay…
Incidentally, Henderson wnet 4-8 in 15 starts and Tomko went 2-11 in 15 starts for the Ds. Then Tomko went 2-1 in 4 starts for the Pads. So the total was 6 wins out of 39 starts.
I messed up, some of Henderson wins were in relief. Sorry.
Hendrickson had 3 wins as SP:
Tomko had 2:
So, 5 wins in 30 starts.
2007 Blanton:
W L ERA G GS CG ShO INN
14 10 3.95 34 34 3 1 0 0 230.0
You've got me sold. I'd take Blanton. 230 INN with positive record and ERA < 4 is sweet.
He's a RHP, though. Throw him back in until he grows another arm.
You know I, like most on here would hate to see Kemp go, but if we could sure up a long term contract with Santana and bring him here for a package inlcuding Kemp and not Kershaw but maybe one of the other young pitcchers I think we would have to take it. That would give the Dodgers instantly the best rotation in baseball. Santana, Penny, Lowe, Bills and who cares else…thats at least 15 wins a piece, for at least 60 wins for our front four starters. Now obviously I wish there was someway we could get Santana, or even Bedard or Haren, without giving up Kemp and if we can jump on the move as soon as you can, but maybe Kemp is worth giving up if you can lock that pitcher up for a while.
that would be roughly 11 wins more from our top 4 starters compared to last year, with an already improved lineup with Jones in center. Also, Lowe pitched poorly and Bills started only half the yr. With the additions to our lineup, Jones and Loney playing the whole yr you could also look for more wins from Penny Lowe and Bills. It has been a while since the Dodgers have seen a 20 game winner and with this rotation they could have 2 or even 3.
Twins are asking for 4 players. Ned said no way. It was as bad as Miggy.
4 wins. 2 each as starters…
Has McCourt ever locked up a contract over 100 million? That's what it will take for any of those arms extension wise.
July 8:
May 2:
April 19:
Hendrickson won 3 games as a starter and 1 as a reliever.
that's some good research sheperd. good knowledge.
Jungar, I'll see your 4 and raise you one.
Five Dodger wins from starts by Hendrickson and Tomko. 2 additional Padre wins from starts by Tomko. Apparently, either the threat of waivers or mid-season rest helped both Tomko and Wells when the Dodgers and Pads swapped 5th starters. Wells went 4-1 after being waived, Tomko went 2-1.
Obviously, I mistyped 39 starts earlier, it was 30 starts (15 for Hendrickson and 15 for Tomkat).
Personally, I like ERA best to measure overall pitching/defense combo performance of pitchers. Of course, it is imperfect. It doesn't account for outstanding defensive support and it doesn't account for the DH difference, but as single measures go, it's the best measure of pitching effectiveness. Wins are more of a team measure.
shepard, I think you're missing the point that I was trying to make earlier. Whether it's 4 or 5 wins from the 2 of them combined, 4 or 5 out of 30 is pathetic. Of course ERA is a better predictor of individual performance, but when evaluating team needs, it is not. If Hendy and Tomko both put up 10+ ERAs and we won 2 out of every 3 of their decisions, we would have netted an additional 15 or 16 wins and ERA would have been irrelevant.
I got the point.
I think accuracy is important. Yes, 5 wins is pathetic from any starting position. Getting 15 or sixteen more from your #5 is a bit optimistic, no?
Yes, if you have the '27 Yankees, pitching is less important than for the '65 Dodgers. We are the Dodgers; pure pitching will always be important. Even in '77, when we had 4 with 30 HRs, we lost the Series to a team with one monster. Pitching wins playoffs over the long run. It always will. Hitting and fielding contribute erratically. The best pure statistic is ERA. Yes, I am changing subjects when I say that. I think pitching is more important. You can win games 9 to 8 like the Yankees, but you had better be willing to spend $190 million in 2007 dollars to do it often.
shepard, we are on the same page, I basically exaggerated those numbers to illustrate that ERA isn't as important when evaluating team needs.
I find it curious that some bloggers feel the majority in here are "attacking" Pierre or obsessing on Pierre. First of all, Pierre is a big boy with more money than any of us will ever see. So he's fine. Second, it comes with the territory: most sports fan are fickle and irrational. Thirdly, many of us feel Pierre was treated with kid gloves last season, never sitting one game while the rest of the outfield saw plenty of pine or AAA bus rides. Lastly, defend Pierre all you want. But if we're choosing sides on the playground…or in a Little League draft, I'd be more than happy to see any one of you choose Pierre over Ethier, Kemp, Repko or Young. Be my guest… And may the best team win.
Oops for some reason my post did not post.
to recap I said..
Good job Shep. I missed his April win
I think WHIP is the best indicator for a SP. Less walks and hits given up per nine innings the better your team chances are.
Evaluating team needs is precisely when you need to have a realistic measure of your pitching prowess. I'm saying that pure pitching of your top 4 starters plus closer and now set-up, as measured by ERA, is how to evaluate your playoff preparedness.
Team hitting helps get you to the playoffs. Pitching pays once you get there. However, a hot Reggie Jackson can ruin even the best plan. Quoting myself, "In addition to 156 HRs from 3 to 8, of which there were 125 from 3 to 6, the '77 team had Tommy John (20 wins, 2.78), Sutton (14, 3.18), Rhoden (16, 3.74), Hooten (12, 2.62), and Rau (14, 3.43)." The 2008 team, so far has Penny, Lowe, Bills, and ?? as a playoff rotation. We have ?? as our 5th starter to help us get there.
My goal is not to get to the playoffs, but to win. Everything. Comparing ERAs will help set that up. Waiting until July is not a plan, it is a hope.
ERA includes pitching out of jams, WHIP doesn't.
That said I liked when Maddux pitched for us. It showed the kids that you could get deep into the game on 90 pitches at age 40. That's what WHIP is good for. Don't waste effort, it just leads to drama.
AJ could be our hot Reggie Jackson come October. He's done it before. Think about it.
I guess I'll sum it up by saying that even with Ethier, our line-up is not a juggernaut therefore a premium needs to be placed on quality pitching. I was trying to illustrate the fact that we lost out last season predominately because of a void of quality pitching at the back-end of our rotation. If we hit 200+ team HRs and had a high team OBP, a quality back-end starter wouldn't be as important as retaining somebody like Ethier over Pierre. But our strength is based on pitching and defense (as evident by our 1 legitimate HR threat) so we need to try to maximize our strength while not compromising too much on offense. Ethier seems to be the odd man out for me because he can actually be packaged and bring us a decent starter in comparison to Pierre. Granted if we can find solutions in the FA market, this may all be rhetoric, but I honestly see a need for 2 additional arms (which will be a tough haul when competing against other pitching hungry teams and we will probably have to severely overpay to make it happen).
I was dismayed to read that you have been seized by the mass hysteria gripping our nation called "Trade Matt Kemp." A good antidote is watching over and over a video of Juan Pierre flying out to left on a 3-1 count with two outs and the bases loaded.
— Milan S., Los Angeles
I never advocated trading Kemp. It's an option, particularly if the Dodgers are unable to sign Japanese free-agent pitcher Hiroki Kuroda.
The Dodgers have a surplus of outfielders, and Kemp will bring the most in return. But dealing Kemp is risky and would be considered only if they get a difference-maker in return. Johan Santana would be the first choice, but general manager Ned Colletti seems to have no stomach to trade a handful of prospects for Santana AND give him a $150-million contract extension. Is the Orioles' Erik Bedard — or anybody — enough of a difference-maker to trade Kemp?
Youth-movement fans will never get over the horrible trades of Pedro Martinez and Paul Konerko and believe trading Kemp would be equally regrettable, regardless of what he brings in return. Similar to Martinez and unlike Konerko, Kemp has already enjoyed significant success during his big league tenure. Kemp is the best outfielder the Dodgers have developed since Raul Mondesi. Here are their numbers after two seasons:
Mondesi: 154 games, 520 AB, 20 HR, 66 RBIs, 76 R, 15 SB, 94 K, 20 BB, .304 avg.
Kemp: 150 games, 446 AB, 17 HR, 65 RBIs, 77 R, 16 SB, 119 K, 25 BB, .312 avg.
All we hear about are Kemp trade rumors. Doesn't anybody want Andre Ethier?
— Dennis M., Encino, Calif.
Ethier is a more likely trade candidate than Kemp. The Texas Rangers, in particular, are after him. The Dodgers have long been interested in Rangers reliever Joaquin Benoit, but they don't consider that an equitable deal.
Well said, charris.
Loading up on 5 pitchers is cheaper and more effective than loading up on 8 fielders.
Besides, it's the Dodger way.
I'm a bit worried about reducing foul territory before next season. It may change the nature of pitching at D statium.
When they moved home plate from 400 feet to 390 from dead center, it foretold the move to get the 4 HR hitters. Smaller foul grounds will help AJ and the rest of the hitters.
Even with the staff we have now. (As mentioned before I don't think Schmidt/Loazia will win more than 10 combined) we are still one of the best staffs in the NL and we have alot of good young talent on the way to help (Elbert ,Kershaw etc)
Maybe the Braves, Padres and Brewers have better starters…
So a move is needed but not neceessary to compete.
I agree with that jungar, but if we can lock-up an additional (1 minimum) quality starter, we could be the class of the NL. I think that Kershaw and Elbert will be above average to phenomenal but we still don't know if they are ready for MLB in '08. I like what Jon Weisman did over at Dodger Thoughts with the points system for rotation depth in the NL. The thing that concerns me is the majority of the teams in our division are only a couple of points or less away from us which IMO is a major cause for concern. If we lose any one of Penny, Billingsley or Lowe for an extended period of time next season, we can get boat raced out of the pennant simply based on the pitching depth within our own division.
I agree Charris. Point I am saying is by all means lets go after FA starters (still alot out there) but let's not trade young quality OFers (even if they plan on playing out machine) just for the sake of depth.
I guess its all a moot point until Kurdora signs someplace.
Why is it that people are afraid to trust the skills of DY, who has demonstrated consistent hetting, even in MLB? Some of those same people see Kershaw or Elbert as reliable starters, before they set foot on a major league field.
Pitching takes more work to adapt to MLB from AAA than hitting. They have kids that throw 95 mph in AAA. Nobody in AAA hits your best stuff like Cabrera and Ordonez.
Kids need to learn to throw 3 or 4 major league pitches for strikes to become true superstars in MLB.
On top of that, neither Kershaw nor Elbert have ever pitched in AAA. They may be 2 years or more from a meaningful MLB contribution.
On the other hand, the Ds have brought kids to MLB before they are ready to learn from the staff and best teachers. They could make the team, but I still think that contribution is out of the question this year.
Pitchers can get warn out by too much practice, hitters thrive on repitition. Pitchers can learn nearly as much from observation as too much repetition.
I honestly don't know how I feel about Kuroda, he's a true wild-card. He could be range from a Matsuzaka to a Igawa, which could make or break our season. We may be better served just getting Livan, Lohse or Silva although all of their WHIPS and ERAs have been alarmingly high the past couple of seasons.
Shep it's not about us trusting DY its about Ned. If Ned traded Ethier and then Pierre got hurt, then Ned would trade kids for Reggie Sanders. DY can mash, I agree. The moves I suggest most times are based in Ned's universe.
Also I didnt Kershaw/Elbert are reliable starters I said they are talented and will soon be able to help. Maybe not now, but maybe by July. And if not that's ok too.
I like the idea of dumping Pierre to the Sox for Contereas. He makes $10m in both '08 and '09.
I simply don't like the idea of trading Ethier or Kemp because we can't trade Pierre, certainly not for a middle reliver or a borderline starter, both of which we could get right now by simply adding money.
I honestly don't know how I feel about Kuroda
Agree. But how I feel is that getting him would make it so Kemp isn't traded and thats more important than spending the money on this guy even if he tanks.
Jungar, Sorry for mischaracterizing your intentions re: Kershaw and Elbert. Meloan might be ready sooner, too.
I agree about valuing Ethier and trading Pierre, if possible. But protect Kemp, trade Ethier if you must, is my thinking.
An illustration about rookie pitching vs. hitting: a pitcher who fools the hitters for 95% of his pitches is a bum, his opponent just hit nearly .400. A hitter who crushes just 2% of the pitches he sees is a hero: that's about 1 HR in 10 careful AB. You don't want a young pitcher to get discouraged early in their career, it's a hard habit to break. Hitters are used to shaking it off, because the next pitch could be gone.
So… basically you're willing to take on another bad contract just so someone isn't traded? Is that what its come to? Come on, Kuroda could be a huge bust, and then not only are we paying him, but we will throw him out there everyday because of it. Fact is, Schmidt will pitch next year no matter how bad he is unless he absolutely physically can't. And so will Loaiza unless we palm him off on someone.ANd those two will still be better than Tomko/Lurch/Stults etc.And chances are, we will trade Ethier over Pierre and Kemp anyways. So no, I don't think we should get Kuroda so Kemp won't be traded. Because to me spending huge money (and years) on an unknown like Kuroda, and then trading Ethier for a reliever… is still not that great. Sorry if Im overreacting a bit. Its so funny how the media can't see how bad Ned has failed at his job. Look at this. He spent 45 mil on a CF and then pays 18 mil/per year to another one! He spends 47 mil on an "ace" pitcher and here we are looking for one (or two) more starters again! I still don't know why we didn't resign Wolf.
Basically I think our situation calls for taking a one year flier on someone rather than commit to 4 years (!!!) for Kuroda. This also does not block any of our young pitching from coming up. Remember Bills didn't start in the rotation this year b/c Tomko was making more money.
jspelk, by most accounts Kurdora is the top free agent arm on the market. I think trading Kemp would be foolish and would cost us alot down the road.
But I hear ya…you don't have to convince me how pathetic Coletti is. And yes that's what it has come down to because the man can't make trades to save his life either.
No worries Shep!!
134-128 4.25era and 1.43 whip
(Livian Hernandez)
55-46 4.31era and 1.37 whip
(Carlos Silva)
Both throw roughly 200 innings each season.
They can help if you don't like Kurdora.
oh i agree w/ you about not trading Kemp jungar, I just think with the state of our pitching staff we don't need to commit 4 years to our #4 starter.
Like I said I am thinking in Colettis universe. In mine we wouldn't do much other than a few one/two year heavy incentive deals ala wolf last year..
As for Wolf, maybe the dodgers know something we don't.
But Ned is determined to get a more pitching help so within the context of that is why do it as oppossed to Kershaw/Kemp for Bedar.
Torre should understand sunk costs and have the clout to assert the concept when necessary.
I'd trade McCourt's money (or yours for that matter) for a good chance at a good pitcher. Talent is rarer than other peoples' money, unless you're worried about losing your job. Torre doesn't have that worry anymore.
So Shep what would you do?
My take is that I don't think we could trade Either for any much more than what is available via free agency (SP wise) (Am I undervaluing him?)
We can't trade Pierre for much, certainly not a SP of value IMO
Kemp can be traded along with another top prospect (or 3) for an ace like arm…
4th option is nothing. Chill, stand pat and then re evaluate your team in July (see if Loazia and Schmidt can be good enough) and make a trade then..
Protect Kemp unless you can get Santana under the market. Buy Kuroda and play the best two of Kuroda, Schmidt, and Loaiza. Stay friendly with Wells. Develop Meloan. Watch Kershaw and Elbert, just in case one is a phenom.
Trade Pierre for bullpen strength, so he doesn't block development of Ethier and DY. Consider trading Ethier if the right SP comes along cheap. I actually think Pierre has value in the lineup at 2 or 8, I just don't want him to block Ethier and DY.
Schmidt was good enough before his injury that I would protect him unless and until he flops.
speaking of Loaiza… Im curious to know just what they intend on doing with him. I mean, lets say we sign another starter thats a lock for the rotation. Are he Schimdt going to battle it out? Does he go to the BP? Can we see another team taking him off our hands? Another brilliant pickup there….
My take is that I don't think we could trade Either for any much more than what is available via free agency (SP wise) (Am I undervaluing him?)
Posted by: email@example.com | December 10, 2007 12:11 PM
I don't think you're undervaluing him at all but I think that if you package him with some other prospects, you can get a Blanton-esque pitcher in return without having to settle for Jeckyl and Hyde starts from the likes of Livan, Silva etc. It's a very delicate balance and I could be very wrong in my assessment to trade Ethier but I'm confident that if we land a legit #4 or 5, we will be the class of the NL (even without Ethier). 2 years from now a move like that could look foolish but for '08, it puts us in immediate contention for the NLCS crown. I wonder what Detroit's asking price for Dontrelle is? I know he stunk it up last year but he seems to be a safer bet than the FA market. Would Ethier/McDonald do the trick?
Sign Seanez.
Seanez was a good situational pitcher out of the bullpen last year. Maybe he will come to Spring Training and earn a position. He's good for one or two outs in a tight situation.
Who have the Rays got we could get? We have a good pipeline with them. Who can forget Jackson & Tiffany for Baez and Carter? Navarro and Sao for Hall and Hendrickson? Guzman for Lugo? So far Jackson and Guzman haven't come back to bite us in the butt, but Ned doesn't exactly have a great track record for acquiring "talent" for prospects. I'm with those of you who want to go the FA route to bring in some arms and not touch the kids.
Don't think we have to worry too much about anything until the Kuroda shoe drops. He lands with L.A. then the 5th spot is a toss-up for Schmidt, Loaiza, etc. to grab and run with. We flip Pierre for a middle reliever (or keep him and resign Seanez), get a back-up catcher and we're good to go. He signs with the M's and we're in for a roller coaster ride with little Neddy.
Is ther a good back-up catcher on a team that needs a speedy CF with a short arm?
Padres GM, Kevin Towers, said a couple weeks back that he preferred taking a chance on an injured pitcher (Wolf, Colon, etc.) as opposed to the weak crop of FA pitchers. Dodgers don't really need to do that. They have a lot of young arms on the verge as well as five capable starters…if you count Schmidt and Loaiza. I know that's a BIG if. Hey, it's our way of taking a chance on injured pitchers, and they're already bought and paid for. The lefty-righty thing? Sure a DOMINANT left hander is nice, but not necessary. The really dangerous lefty sticks in the NL can be handled by Beimal on a game-by-game basis. Besides, Hendrickson is a good example of lefty mediocrity. If you want a dominant lefty, wait a few minutes for Kershaw, and to a lesser extent, Greg Miller.
Lucas May was impressive for A+ Inland Empire (25 HR, 25 2B, 89 rbi, 81 R, just .256/.313/.465/.778). He needs a bit of seasoning at AAA this year, but he may be our backup C of the future. Just 4 E in 128 games.
Well, we sure have plenty of injured pitchers in the fold to take a chance on. Schmidt, Loaiza, Brazobahn, and Kuo. If one of them comes thru it will be a bonus.
My backup catcher would be free agent Mike Piazza. He is thinking about retirement, but with only a few games behind Russell Martin, he would be happy and squeeze another year onto his career. Also, great RH pinch hitter of the bench. I think it would be great to see him retire as a Dodger in their 50th year.
Depends on how much money he wants. I think it is a great suggestion.
Actually, Lowe was injured down the stretch and it has been mentioned that Penny was battling some nagging injuries also. They both disappeared in Sept. Billz was nails. He is a definately a top of the rotation starter and that is why I would not trade him for any reason. Good mechanics and smooth delivery. Uses his legs. He is young and as he gains confidence and more control, I believe he will be a consistant 1 or 2 starter for us for many years.
I gotta believe that there's some underlying reason that Wolf wasn't resigned given his success before he went down.
I think if the Dodgers feel that Kuroda will have similar success that Nomo had his first 2-3 years, go ahead and sign him. Chances are you lose Lowe after this year and unless the kids are ready, we have this same discussion next year on "who do we get?" because we can forget about Santana between NY and BOS driving the price up.
I just hope that if he doesn't land Kuroda that Ned doesn't panic like he did last year and waits to see what he has for pitching in spring training before he makes any moves.
I believe that the Twins are asking for too much and that Santana will not be traded. If we wait and see what happens with Schmidt, Loaiza, et al, I think we can acuire Santana as a free agent when Lowe departs. If not Santana, then, another free agent pitcher without giving up any young talent.
We will know for sure by July 31st what we really need. The picture is very cloudy right now. Patience Ned.
Maybe since Wolf hasn't thrown more than 150 innings since 2003. With Schmidt and Loazia also being injury concerns maybe it is as simple as that?
I agree Jungar. Schmidt and Loaiza and to a lesser degree, Kuo, are competing for the 4 and 5 spots. Back of the rotation starters only need to keep you in the game for 6 innings and hopefully win 50% of the time. Either one or both of those guys could realistically bounce back when healthy to get the job done. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Could be that simple jungar – good point.
Would've been a nice rotation on the DL though. Wolf on, Schmidt off, Schmidt on Loaiza off. Wouldn't have had to worry about freeing a roster spot that way.
Sure wish Houlton or Stults would step it up a notch.
It would be sweet for alot of Ned's guys (last year in particular) if it was 2003 instead of 2007. All threw 190 to 200 innings…
Loaiza was 21-9 era of 2.90
Schmidtwas 17-5 era of 2.34
Wolf was 16-10 era o 4.23
Lowe was 17-7 era of 4.47
Penny was 14-10era of 4.13
I always said this last year was like the 2002-2003 allstar team. Add in the 2002 of nomar, kent, and gonzo, and we'd win the world series! Stop getting old players…. The problem with ned is he believes players like this will always perform close to their peak value when they are in reality far removed from this point.
What i want to know is why we keep picking up excess baggage at the trade deadline instead of getting rid of some.
Hopefully, he is learning from his numerous mistakes and will make wiser decisions in the future.
Yeah he belives Nomar will get back to his 2006 form..(i get it, what else is he suppossed to say) i hope he means the first half. The second half of 06 Nomars numbers made Pierre look like a power hitting on base machine.
Ned's Record:
Pro; Traded Bradley for Ethier.
Got Joe Torre and dumped Little (although I believe McCourt had alot to do with this).
Got Maddux for Izturis at the trade deadline.
Signed Andruw Jones (at least I hope it turns out as a pro).
Picked up David Wells for stretch run. (Hey, I'm digging deep for pro's here).
Kept the young core intact for now.
Neutral; Furcal
Extending Kent
Dumped OPerez for Dessens
All the Tampa/Mets trades with Sao, Hendry, etc…
Loaiza (could go either way depending on his performance).
Cons; Signed Pierre. Signed Schmidt (could go to neutral or positive if he comes back at all).
Resigned Nomar
Please add to the list as you see fit.
Right now, if he rectifies the Pierre debacle, he comes out pretty good.
Yeah, you'd think that Ned would at least kick the tires before he buys. I'd say I have some swampland in Florida to sell him, but he's already done that and brought it to L.A.
I for one though don't mind Nomar on the team as long as he's the infield sub. I think he's still got value spelling the regulars and PHing in that roll.
Yep, Nomar is a wild card. Could be a neutral depending on what he does this year in whatever roll.
I'd give Ned a plus for Furcal. Resigning Kent is a minus unless resigning Kent kept us from having a Yugo, I mean a Lugo at second.
Oops I forgot. Better give him a plus for Pierre because without Pierre's bunts, Jones wouldn't have signed!
Good way to think about it Enchanted one.
Hope all of you realize I'm kidding about Pierre…
Yep, Pierre's bunting prowess has made the difference. LOL
Hey, what happened to the Pads resigning Bradley? I was so looking forward to his positive influence in their clubhouse.
Me too!! HAHA
Betemit for Procter is another neutral for now. Could go either way.
Ned is sitting on a C/C- with mid term and final exams coming up.
He could still pull an A-/B+.
I'll take a solid B Ned.
I for one thought that was a bad deal at the time. Betemit should've been given 3B until he settled down and we could've seen what he could really do. I think Little had him not knowing if he was coming or going on a daily basis (course he managed just about everybody that way.)
I like the post about signing Piazza as a back-up C. Wouldn't hurt the offense too much on days he plays, and certainly isn't going to be any more of a liability in the field than JP (hope that didn't reopen a can of worms.)
Make that deal and I'd go to ST with what we have now.
Even if we do stand pat, this team will a helluva lot more entertaining (in a good way) than last years.
I agree Enchanted one.
Conversly, Ned could still flunk out. LOL
Just read that the Gnats are thinking about Shawn Green and Gonzo next year. I'd like to see them start Gonzo in left, Finley in center, and Green in right. Ned would be green with envy. LOL
Didn't they just sign LoDuca as well? And they already signed Boone…
Yeah, Neds dream "character" team.
New thought – maybe we can trade Ned to the Nats for Bowden.
BTW, you do mean the cute little Muppet and not the old guy the Dodgers had in left last year right?
That was the Nationals, Ned's other dream team. The Gnats is our pet name for the Giants. LOL
I'd take Bowden over Ned.
Nationals are pathetic because they are new and need a new stadium. The Giants however, have no good excuse.
In the case of Ned, the apple doesn't fall from the tree…
That's what happens when you're from Boston and have no idea the Giants and Dodgers have a rivalry.
Unfortunately Enchanted, you are so right!
Not to be negative because the jury's still out, but have you ever noticed two words you don't hear in connection with our GM are shrewd and savvy?
Would love it if the Giants had an outfield of Bonds, Green and Gonzo. Their age you could just pencil in Snap, Crackle and Pop and we'd know the line-up.
Who referred to our very tall southpaw as Lurch in their post? – Now that was PIYP funny!
Bombko and Wrecko also.
I like to call Hendrickson a Christmas tree… because he's as tall as one, and is always getting lit up.
what is with all you big idiots getting mad at each other for saying stuff about one player o r another. we are not the GM's its an opinion. im sure the dodgers know a little more about how good all our prospects and players are going to be than we are and im sure they know what to do with them . Its their JOB. they are informed about stuff like this 24.7. its cool to have an opinion but dont attack other posters like they are making the moves just because they dont agree with what you think. other than that GO DOYERS!
All quiet on the Western Front, which I think is for the best. Good chatter here. I was surprised that Gagne got $10 Million, but of course his problem in Boston is that he was not finishing games.
Conceptually, I love the idea of signing Piazza. It would be great to see him home. But I still think we should not do it–I think he's more of a DH who can catch than a backup catcher at this point. Which is too bad, because he is maybe the best catcher in the history of the game.
Oddly, I thought Lieberthal was the right guy for the backup job, but he so rarely played. Not that I want to see Martin out of the lineup (I don't–ever), but you have to rest him. Are we going to have Chad Moeller???
Jungar–I live in Redondo Beach, born in LA, grew up in OC, and work in Century City. But my favorite place is Dodger Stadium.
I have to say, I really like the deal for Andruw. I live in Florida and if I want to watch a game on a regular basis I have to watch TBS, so the Braves are on my TV frequently. Having a glove that that roaming center will be great and I really think that last year was a fluke as far as his hitting, although as it has been pointed out he still would have led our guys in several key stats. As far as bringing back Piazza, I think it would be great to have him on the team again, finishing things off in Dodger Blue. The one qualifier I think we probably need to add to your post, Lee, is that he may be the best HITTING catcher in the history of the game. As far as the mechanics of catching go I can think of several guys I would rather have behind the plate, but for as little as he would catch for us, not to mention giving James a break at first once in a while and having his bat off the bench, I think it would be a great pickup.
the ONLY problem with signing Piazza is that you are generally very reluctant to use your backup catcher as a PH (if you only carry two). This i think would deter Piazza, and I'm sure he requires decent money for a backup catcher so it might not be desirable on our behalf either… Just something to think about. I think its obvious though that everyone would love to have Piazza back… He was/is the ******* man.
Piazza will probably want too much money. It would be great to have him back, but I don't think you can or should pay a backup catcher the kind of money Piazza may command. That money is needed to get better pitching.
I too am shocked that Gagne got $10 million, but happy for him. I agree with leekfink that the trouble for Gagne in Boston was that he was not closing. A survey of Gagne's history demonstrates quite clearly that Gagne is fairly useless in any role other than closing. Something about his psyche quite obviously. Of course a healthy Gagne in the closer's role is an amazing thing to behold.
Piazza probably has a max of two seasons of good productivity left. It would be great for both the Dodgers, and I would hope Piazza, to end his career here. He could fill the Olmedo Saenz spot plus backup catcher (although for him to do both of these we would need a guy who could catch in an emergency where Piazza has already pinch hit and Martin is injured).
Since I beleive adding Piazza to the team would result in a small uptick in attendance/revenue, we can afford to overpay him a little.
If we were an AL team, I would be all for getting Piazza back but we're not so I don't want him. If for some reason Martin goes down for an extended period of time, Piazza would fall apart behind the dish (not to mention teams would run on him like they do Pierre). I don't know why Lieberthal got such a bad rap, if he were used like a normal back-up should be, I think he would have given us a decent amount of production and been pretty steady behind the dish.
I think Gagne's a good pick-up for the Brews. $10mils a bit steep, but its only 1 year.
Speaking of steep, I agree with those that say Piazza's price tag would be too expensive for a back-up C. Though I'm not a big Piazza fan myself, he'd still be a nice acquisition if the price was right. As a pure back-up C though, Liebs not a bad option, though after last season the way he was handled by Grittle, can't blame him if it left a bad taste in his mouth for ths Ds.
Both of them though I'm sure think they've got game left and will wait it out to see if someone gives them a more prominent roll before they resign themselves to being a back-up.
when are the dodgers going to have the presser for jones?
I think we should look into a deal with Pittsburgh for Bay and Gorzelanny….
Maybe we could get him for a package of Ethier, Elbert, McDonald, Hu…
perhaps even Kemp straight up for the two plus a good reliever… Preferably not, but they could make us a very attractive offer surrounding those two guys for Kemp…
Bay had a horrible year last year, but in the previous three put up.418, .500, .500 Slg. .
.396, .400,.350 OBP. He stole 21 bases 2 years ago. Had 13 assists last year, but made more errors than ever before. He had a bad year but could be very very good. They want pitching, and i think we could give up a little combined with Ethier to at least get him– they could end up being perfectly comparable, but Bay has some great potential if he;s right.
I think you're giving Jason Bay and Tom Gorzelanny too much value, especially when you start talking about Kemp. Any deal for Kemp would have to give much more back in return.
Bay — Three very good years from ages 25 to 27, followed by a signifacant decline at age 28, and an apparent rapid dimishment in speed. I like Jason Bay, and he may turn it back around and have a great career. Right now I'd say that it's a 50-50 proposition if he'll return to form or become the next Geoff Jenkins.
Gorzelanny — A very good but not great young pitcher.
I'd give 3 but not 4 of the guys you mentioned (Ethier, Hu, Elbert, McDonald) for the pair. Naturally I'd throw in Pierre if they'll take most of his salary.
According to a report I just read, Kuroda's only looking for a three year deal so that he can go back and finish his career in Japan. Time for McCourt to go a little deeper in his pockets now and make it happen.
Hold on, I'm confused:
Loaiza is worth 7 mil. a year
Yet we let Randy Wolf(one of the only proven LHP on the FA market) get away to our arch rivals because he is too expensive at 4 mil. a year.
All at a time when we don't have any left handed starters or depth in the rotation.
Can someone explain that to me please?
swood maybe the dodgers know something they are not saying publicly. Maybe because we already have two injury concern arms among our top 5 there is no reason to add a third to our top 6. Maybe Wolf was guarnteed starting for the Padres and not with us. I wouldn't stress, he hasnt been able to stay healthy since 2003.
–SS Rafael Furcal finished second among National League shortstops in range factor. The statistic is based on the number of plays made per nine innings. Furcal made 4.96 plays per nine innings in 2007, and that was while playing the entire season with a sprained left ankle. Colorado's Troy Tulowitzki was tops among NL shortstops.
Agree again with Martinloney. If I am trading Kemp, then we have to get a superstar back in return.
martinloney was this random??
Similar Batters through Age 28 to Jason Bay..Baseball reference:
Compare Stats
1. Geoff Jenkins (974)
Jungar, I know Wolf was often injured but don't you think he's a heck of alot better risk then Loaiza. Just considering his price, and that hes left handed. If the organization isn't saying something publicly then thats fine and I understand, otherwise it doesn't make much sense why Wolf wouldnt be resinged, also considering he had moderate success last year for us when healthy.
Oh I agree but I have to think something else is to it cause ya no brainer otherwise. I mean if you can spend 81 million on two CF in two consecutive offseasons you can afford 4 million right?
I think Loaiza was Neddy grasping at straws to save last season more than it was a look ahead to '08. Another dubious acquisition though. If Wolf stays healthy, its another [non]move that'll come back and bite us in the butt. I'm of the opinion though that the D's know something we don't. Still gives the Pads a nice rotation though.
Think we have to face facts – other than the Giants, its no longer the mild mild west anymore and its gonna get pretty cutthroat… I of course hope that the Giants revert back to the quality of their 84-85 teams.
**** may freeze over, but I'll risk it. I totaly agree with EWK. Jason Bay may have had a bad year, But is more proven impact player than anyone we had before Andruw Jones was signed. Now is the time to take a crack at getting him because he had a bad year and he could be had for less than what he is really worth. I think HU is at the very least a strong canidate to be a solid middle infielder for a long time, and I still think Kemp is almost untouchable so i would hope Ned shys away from trading either one. That being said, the Pirates do want pitching. I think the Pirates also signed Bay to a contract they regret, so a package of young pitchers and perhaps a postion player may get it done. So far, Bay is a much more proven player than Kemp. If Kemp is as untouchable as so many of us think he is and Bay is better than Kemp, putting those 2 along side Jones may be one of the best OFs in baseball. Not even I could argue about benching Pierre in this case.