text:
The zest with which Georgia schools test the church-state divide never fails to stun me.
I wonder if other states grapple with this issue or is this unique to the Bible Belt?
With the threat of litigation, public schools ought to think very carefully about allowing any religious group access to students and the possible charge of proselytizing on school grounds.
Yet, a north Georgia parent sent me a note that Bibles were handed out at her high school last week. She is a Christian and reveres the Bible, but doesn't think the high school was the right place to hand it out.
Her concern mirrors my own: Our schools are attended by students of all faiths and traditions. All those faiths and belief deserve respect. We risk making many students feel like outsiders when we elevate one religion above all others.
Consider the 1656 warning by devout Baptist Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, on the consequences of mixing religion and government: "God requireth not an uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state; which enforced uniformity, sooner or later, is the greatest occasion of civil war, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants and of the hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls."
More than a century later, Thomas Jefferson allayed the fears of the Baptist Association that the newly birthed United States of America was planning to designate a national religion. Responding to the worried Baptists, Jefferson wrote, "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State."
Many of you will argue that America was created as a Christian nation. But the 1797 treaty between the United States and Tripoli, written under President George Washington and signed by his successor, John Adams, says that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
But what about the phrase "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" on our currency? Both grew out of the anti-Communist fervor of the McCarthy era.
In 1954, politicians tacked "under God" onto the pledge; three years later, they engraved "In God We Trust" onto paper money. Concerns were raised even then about blurring the line between church and state, but no lawmakers wanted to risk casting a vote against God.
James Madison believed that the only way to preserve both religion and government is to maintain a safe distance between them. "The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever, " wrote Madison, "beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against the trespasses on its legal rights by others."
Madison got it right. Too many of our schools are getting it wrong.
November 24th, 2009
6:33 am
Whatever it is, it isn't motivated by any rationale or emotion that Jesus would condone.There's an underlying meanness to it that is scary.For some of the extremists, it's literally "agree with me or I'll kill you."
I'm certainly not the first to note the similarity in these folks and Islamic extremists.
November 27th, 2009
5:57 am
This is purely a constitutional issue and making anyone feel good or bad is immaterial.
It wouldn't surprise me if most of the landmark cases actually originated in the North. The 1963 case over school sponsored prayer (everyone remembers Madalyn Murray O'Hair, but the case was actually Abington v. Schempp), school holiday naming standards and selling Creation as Intelligent Design were Pennsylvania cases.
The South seems to have more local issues, such as the one mentioned above, which require adherence more than standard setting, but one big difference is the media attention attracted by politicians to a given case. Around here, you don't have to look hard to find politicians willing to declare themselves the sole guardians of Christianity, but this is much less common in the North because of the different voting base.
When half your constituents send their kids to Catholic school, you talk about funding their transportation costs and skip the part about how public schools they don't attend are threatening the existence of their religion.
November 27th, 2009
6:57 am
You all may understand after the rapture occurs. Jesus will be returning to earth to gather His people.
November 27th, 2009
7:06 am
Jopar, which Christian said "agree with me or I'll kill you"? I'd like to see where you get this quote from. Thanks.
November 27th, 2009
7:11 am
Maybe if we handed out more Bibles, we'd hand out less condoms…. If you don't like the way we do it here, Delta is ready when you are.
November 27th, 2009
7:14 am
netgnat, how about this:
Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
November 27th, 2009
7:14 am
I realize you are writing an opinion piece, but my guess is you have no idea what the real situation was at this school. I seriously doubt it was the school that was handing the Bibles out. It was most likely a group of students wanting to share their faith with whomever wanted to listen with no requirement that anyone listen or take the Bibles at all. If a group of another religious faith wanted to do something similar would you have even written this piece? It seems to me that people who argue "church and state" issues would increasingly rather that christianity be completely stamped out of our society and let government guide our every thought, move and choice. Part of our society's issue right now is there isn't enough "church" involved in the state. It's all about power. I say kudos to those who are not afraid to let their schoolmates know they are proud to be Christians and are willing to share something positive rather than bow to those who would rather give every situation a negative spin to suit their own political leanings.
November 27th, 2009
7:24 am
Netgnat: well, the guy that killed Dr George Tiller basically said that. Randy Cooper: no, YOU LEAVE. I think Iran has the theocracy you are looking for. George: the rapture? What in the world are you talking about? Weirdo
November 27th, 2009
7:25 am
mr. cooper, your analogy just doesn't work. some of the most hot to trot chicks i knew in high school and college were southern baptists. they didn't drink, but boy did they like to get in positions where condoms were needed ; ) one guy i knew prided himself on sleeping with all the hotties in the uga baptist student union. unite they did!
November 27th, 2009
7:29 am
Shine: make 'em wonder what you got. Make 'em wish they were not, on the outside looking bored. Shine: let it shine before all men, let 'em see good works, and let 'em glorify the Lord.
November 27th, 2009
7:29 am
Is there a problem with having those who would like to accept the Bibles do so and, those don't want one, simply say "no thank you?"
November 27th, 2009
7:41 am
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40
November 27th, 2009
7:46 am
Getting back on subject here….were the students forced to accept the Bibles? If not, what is the problem, exactly? Students (and teachers) are offered things at schools all the time. That doesn't mean that they have to accept those items. It's called "personal choice."
November 27th, 2009
7:59 am
Just a point of clarification about "In God We Trust" on US currency.
The phrase was added to our coins during the Civil War – first appearing on the two-cent coin in 1864. Further details can be found here: http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
November 27th, 2009
8:17 am
The article's quote of Roger Williams was taken way out of context. For nearly 200 years in this country the Bible was respected and accepted. Please point out to me any case in which that led to Christianity ever being forced upon our society. It has NEVER happened in this nation. But in the last 50 years, with the Bible and Christianity being under attack in this nation have we seen the moral decline and proliferation of the problems of drugs, violence, teen pregnancy, etc… in our schools. Surely a "concerned parent" can find other issues to be "concerned about" rather than a Bible being offered, not forced upon students in the schools.
November 27th, 2009
8:28 am
Maureen Downey:
I want you to look up all of your teachers and contact them…so they can kick you for making them look like they did not do their jobs. Go back to Jefferson's and Roger Williams quotes and understand their positions on the matter. Understand the spirit and context in which these statements were made…NOT the word for word quote that you copied and pasted off of wikipedia. I am embarrassed for you.
November 27th, 2009
8:28 am
You made your own argument for it Maureen. Freedom of religion and assembly doesn't just apply to non Christians, but to Christians too. I doubt that the group forced kids to take the Bibles… simply handed them out to anyone who wanted one. How is that any different than handing out pamphlets on abstinence?
No wonder you have few people read your columns. I'm sure the ACLU will give you a job.
November 27th, 2009
8:31 am
Giving out those Bibles has really gotten us close to civil war, hasn't it? Look at the price this country has paid and is paying for turning its back on the Bible and accepting the Adam Lamberts of the world. It just keeps on getting worse; at some point, there will be a price to pay.
By the way, the 1797 Treaty was re-written, with those words left out, four years later, a fact that this blogger conveniently leaves out. Whether you accept it or not, most of our forefathers were practicing Christians. The Hollywood crowd and the Democratic party are Marxist, Godless perverts.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." How exactly do you get "separation of church and state" from this? OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. How does this restrict handing out Bibles in schools? You liberals have made a mockery out of the constitution.
November 27th, 2009
8:39 am
I have never understood why the Bible makes even "Christians" so nervous. Would the parent mentioned above have been so concerned if the school handed out copies of "The Secret" or "The Da Vinci Code" probably not. The Bible is a unique work of literature with a very positive message. Considering the garbage that spews from the press to school library bookshelves and is made readily accessible frre of charge to any student wishing to have a go, why would anybody be concerned about a kid getting their hands on the ultimate self-help book? Ghandi read it (he never converted to Christianity by the way), so has just about every President that ever kept watch in the oval office. If a kid can read the words of a madman "Mein Kampf" in school, why not make the Bible available to them. What "never fails to stun me" is that so called liberal and open minded people seem to promote tolerance for everything but God and the Bible. You can be gay, lesbian, sex or drug addicted, anything but a Christian. Amazing in a world of tolerance that only God is rendered intolerable. And if I were him, I would be really disappointed in my kids for that. What are you afraid of?
November 27th, 2009
8:46 am
Does anyone yet realize that by not allowing the free expression of religion, anywhere, is in fact elevating the "religion of state" above all others? Atheism is itself a religion. Humanism is a religion. Believing NOTHING becomes a defacto religion. I recently read a novel which paints a scary, yet quite likely scenario of where we are heading. It's fictional, but could easily happen. Read Jerry Jenkins' trilogy Soon, Silenced, and Shadowed.
November 27th, 2009
8:48 am
Wow, Maureen, you leave out just enough critical detail to really screw up the discussion. You memntion "separation of Church and State, cite some various quotes from certain founders, but don't give the actual Constitutional phrase. It reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .". First Amendment – freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc. You also say that Bibles were handed out at a north GA high school. Who bought the bibles, the school or a private group? Did the school personnel hand them out or did students? Were they given to all students in class or handed to those who accepted them as they walked by?
This is a very good example of why we cannot have a civilized discussion on religion, race, abortion, or any other sensitive subject in this country. A lot of people use what they hear from the press as the major factor when forming their opinions. When the press fails to provide adequate information, then it is no better that the propaganda machines in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.
Note to jopar and KIM regarding the, "agree with me or I'll kill you", viewpoint. Yes, there are some terrorists hiding behind Christianity, but they are shunned by the Christian community as a whole. When caught, they are punished for their criminal transgressions against society. Islamic Facism is based on text in the Koran and is endorsed and supported by the Islamic states and religious hierarchy. Big difference.
November 27th, 2009
8:50 am
I sent my children to a private christian school for all of the reasons mentioned in your blog. It was the best money I ever spent, and in the overall scheme of things, the costs were about the same is what many people pay for their car or truck. A good private christian school will provide a loving, caring environment with high academic standards, but will not allow the nonsense or bad behavior found in public schools. For those that would like a private school education for their children but don't think they can afford it, there are scholarships available. You only get once chance to raise your children.
November 27th, 2009
8:55 am
All you need to know about this state can be summed up in the lyrics to Randy Newman's "I'm a Redneck." Google those lyrics and Randy will explain it to you in stark detail.
That's all that need be said on this topic.
November 27th, 2009
9:03 am
Maybe we should have copies of the Quaran handed out and see how well that goes over. If you allow one religion's holy book to be passed out, then any other religion should have the same opportunity.
November 27th, 2009
9:11 am
I know we are on vacation but this is shoddy reporting at it's best. First were the Bibles handed out BY THE HIGH SCHOOL? I grew up in Virginia and the Gideons use to pass out the small New Testament Bibles every year across from the school. As you were walking home they would OFFER you a Bible.
It amazes me how Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and any other religion is openly discussed and debated in publich schools all the time. However, Christianity is frowned upon as a topic to even be "touched". Yes, I am a Christian, however if some of the basic day to day principles of Christianity were discussed (maybe compared and contrasted) as much as the other major faiths maybe we will see more positive stories other than the weekly "I can't believe this is happening" stories we see out of Clayton County. Yes other districts have issues to, I am just using Clayton as an example due to the number of events involving teachers, students, and community members over the past few weeks.
Just because you do not agree with something does not mean it can not be a helpful guide. You may not agree with the Constitution but it still provides a legal framework for people to live by.
November 27th, 2009
9:18 am
I think that is a blessing to hand out bibles you can acknowledge all other religions and you can teach about evolution but when The Truth is Being orchestrated then it's a Problem it's a choice, not all have to take that bible but it may be one person that may need that bible so We as a Christians Shouldn't dispute this This is what got prayer taking out of School because Christians were Silence So I appauld the Schools that are doing this Praise God for that we need this all other things are taught in School but we are so Bold to take Christ out of it and You wonder why School shootings, Gangs, Teachers sleeping with Students, Children having sex in bathrooms and Drugs We need to check ourselves and see if we really want to mess with The all knowing Mighty Powerful God. Although God doesn't come to destroy US Sin does but we embrace Sin when we PUsh GOd out; We invite Satan to come in and Have a Field day So May God of ALL True and Living God Have Mercy on Us as a Country and Nation…. Be Bless May we Repent and Get It right….
November 27th, 2009
9:20 am
If I was handed a Bible at my school, I'd rip the pages out of it and throw it away right in front of the givers.
November 27th, 2009
9:21 am
Never thought I would say this but it is probably time to take a serious look at vouchers. Parents who think schools are corrupting their children would now be free to place their children in christian schools. They would have access to the bible for the full school day. Contract the public schools, hire the best teachers, solve the problems without all of the distractions of folks who are going to be constantly talking about how education has been going downhill ever since prayer was taken out of the schools. Give those folks schools where they can pray every minute of the school day. To keep forcing these individuals into public schools is a mistake. Let them go. Let the public schools move forward. They may find in several years down the road that the public schools have moved on and progressed while some of the these private schools are still stuck in the past and left behind.
November 27th, 2009
9:25 am
Jebus…Are you really making a case that Christians in the United States, as a matter of doctrine, would kill those who don't believe in Jesus? No rational thinking a person in the universe could buy off on that case. The fact of your suggestion reveals both deep hatred and basic ignorance.
November 27th, 2009
9:26 am
I will be visiting as many public school websites over the next few days posting this website:
I think that the students might like to learn about the Quran, and this website is giving them away for free. Each of you should get a copy too.
November 27th, 2009
9:26 am
More and more issues like these arise on news and everywhere to keep reminding us we are in the last days. When are we going to pay attention? And by the way whoever mention that the Quaran should be handed out, that basically is the Holy Bible just with a different name and rewording of the original stories in the Holy Bible.
November 27th, 2009
9:27 am
Wow, Pete. You're a tough guy. You show 'em! Do you show the same respect for those "Sweet Valley High" books you're still struggling to finish?
November 27th, 2009
9:28 am
The problem, as I see it, are the circumstances under which the Bible is handed out to students. Students are required to attend school. If Bibles are distributed during school hours, a minor student could easily be "persuaded" to understand that his school is requiring him to accept the Bible as part of the curriculum. There are no parents or guardians of the student present when the Bibles are distributed to tell the student that he/she is not required to accept the gift. It is the distributor of the Bible who use these circumstances to unduly persuade the student that, because they're handed out during school hours, he/she is required to accept it.
The student can read "Mein Kampf" in school, yes. But "Mein Kampf" isn't distributed during school hours to each student during school hours. I encouraged my child to read "Mein Kampf," but only so that I could do my job as a parent to discuss the book with my child, explain the context of the book with him and help him discern his own feelings.
Knowledge and ideas are dangerous only when they are either forced upon the student, or are offered as persuasion in an environment the context of which suggests that the have no choice but to accept the teachings of the "lesson" lest they be ostracized or ridiculed for "bucking the norm," be those lessons from "Mein Kampf" or the Bible. It is my job as a parent to teach my child a system of values, attitudes and beliefs, in order that my child, when he becomes an adult, has the unfettered environment in which he may ultimately choose for himself. That, in my opinion, is what America is all about: the freedom to choose for himself.
What am I afraid of? That Christians are so worried that the message of their teachings are so weak that they use all circumstances available to them to force their beliefs, either through intimidation or coercion, into the empty vessel of a child's mind. Respectfully, that's not your job. That's my job as a parent. If you want to make "Mein Kampf," the Bible, or any other piece of literature available to anyone by placing it in a library for a student to check out, I'm all for that. But until math books are made available to any student attending church during services, I oppose. I object not so much to passing out the Bible during school hours, but rather the usurpation of my rights as a parent to control the environment in which my child gains knowledge. "Free will" also means the freedom to say "no." Passing out Bibles during school hours creates an environment in which the freedom to say "no" is removed, either by enforcement of rule or by using "peer pressure" to remove the perception of freedom.
November 27th, 2009
9:34 am
Pete, I'd defend your right to do that. It's their choice to offer it. It's your choice to accept it. And it's your choice to do with it what you want. I'm praying you'll get curious as to what you're throwing away, though. For 24 years I felt the same way as you and wouldn't open a Bible. Now, it's so much more than simply a book to me. I know it is God's Word. Hope you'll take a look someday soon too.
November 27th, 2009
9:40 am
I say "why not?" Even though I myself am not a Christian..nor do I consider myself of any one particular religion. But what harm could it possibly do? Maybe people will start treating each other better!
November 27th, 2009
9:41 am
"What "never fails to stun me" is that so called liberal and open minded people seem to promote tolerance for everything but God and the Bible. You can be gay, lesbian, sex or drug addicted, anything but a Christian. Amazing in a world of tolerance that only God is rendered intolerable."
I see that this particular bit of illogic persists…For one, given the predominance of Christianity in this country it is ludicrous to suggest that Christians are persecuted or forced to hide. For another, this "liberals are intolerant of Christians" thing is utterly ridiculous. What "liberals" are intolerant of is proselytizing by ANY religious group in schools or other government-funded organizations. We are intolerant of ANY religious group attempting to use religious prejudice or taboo as the justification for laws that limit individual freedoms – Blue Laws, for example. We are not "intolerant" of Christians, in fact you'll find that most of us ARE Christians. And seriously – the constant equating of gays and lesbians to drug addicts, child molesters or what-have-you by so-called loving Christians is offensive and ignorant.
Similarly the "atheism is religion" argument is pure sophistry. By definition, "religion" involves a systematized collection of beliefs shared by its members that refers to a higher power. The fundamentalist factions of Christianity have attempted to make this logically fallacious claim for years now, in order to make it seem as if the absence of religion is a religion in and of itself, but it is absolutely false.
"And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40″
Yes…Islamic fundamentalists claim that they have a mandate from God that requires them to convert others, too. You're in such…good company. If you were a decent human being, you would respect the rights of others instead of attempting to force your own on them.
Fundamentalists of whatever religion are the lowest form of human being. The world would be so much better off without the rigidity of thought and the inherent hatred against those who are different that fundamentalists live for.
November 27th, 2009
9:46 am
If we aren't a Christian nation, then why do we observe the federal holiday of Christmas? Thanksgiving is also a holiday for thanking God, as declared by President Lincoln. So much for a wall between church and state.
November 27th, 2009
9:54 am
I hate to say it but the Quaran IS already being handed out at schools along with groups that wants to destroy all Christians for their beliefs. Please look at the overall picture. If you think that Christians are the only one's passing out Bible's or other coorespondence, you need to look again.
I do feel sorry for the non-believers and pray for them. Hey, this IS apart of God's plan. Read Revelations! It's only going to get worse. Why do you think this country is going down quickly? Just keep taking God out of everything and see how low this country will go. Look at the great nations of past history. They became great on putting God 1st! They fell when they ignored God and brought in other FALSE religions & FALSE prophets.
Jesus is the truth, they only true living God that beat death. Mohamed????? never understood that one. They say that he defeated death………. Oh, by the way, they found his bones. False prophet. Of course they never found Jesus bones and never will. He conquered the grave!
November 27th, 2009
9:56 am
Ms. Dorothy, that was the longest sentence I have ever read. I'm not sure why you capitalized a bunch of those words either.
On topic, schools shoudn't allow ANY religion access to students on the school property. They are a "captive audience" and shouldn't have religion thrust upon them. They are free to read the bible, bring it to school, go to the church of their church and even PRAY in school. I love when people say we "took prayer out of school"…we didn't! Students are allowed to pray on their own, we simply do not force them to like we used to (we now have a "moment of silence and self reflection" in Georgia schools, lol). I see many students close their eyes and murmur a little prayer every time I hand out a test. I believe if they had actually studied and prepared it would be more beneficial but whatever.
November 27th, 2009
9:57 am
Jebus: Exodus was written long before Christ. It's in the Old Testament. Duh! If you're going to be clever, at least know what you're writing about.
November 27th, 2009
9:57 am
Why do you always take more than one southern baptist fishing with you?
Answer: Because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer!
November 27th, 2009
9:57 am
Everything you need to know about the State of Georgia can be summed up in the lyrics to Randy Newman's "I'm a Redneck."
Google that and you will understand.
By the way, I'm a native Georgian and call 'em like I see 'em.
November 27th, 2009
10:02 am
Too bad we can't get Jefferson and Roger Williams on Oprah or The View so that they could straighten out Maureen's out of context quotes.
November 27th, 2009
10:02 am
Want to see something interesting…
Go to Georgia Standards .org
Look up World History Standards 9-12
Look at how many standards cover Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism…
Then go look at how many cover Christianity.
Christianity is only mentioned with the Fall of Rome and the comparison between Judaism and Islam. There is not even 1 full standard devoted to Christianity when Islam gets at least 5 and Buddhism/Hinduism get at least two.
Great parity there…
November 27th, 2009
10:06 am
Why do you all continue to follow Maureen? She is just trying desperately to goad people into responding to her blog. She can't or won't follow real news about education issues, so she posts sensationalized stories that she knows will get a response. If parents or students offered the Bibles, then what is the problem? The Bibles were not forced on anyone.
The Wall Street Journal (a real newspaper) has had two news articles within the past few days about President Obama's education initiative Race to the Top. Has Maureen even mentioned this?
November 27th, 2009
10:10 am
People hear this type of info and just accept it as history. It is just as easy to argue the other side. Here are a couple of resources to start with:
or read a book:
America's Providential History (Including Biblical Principles of Education, Government, Politics, Economics, and Family Life) (Paperback)
~ Mark A. Beliles (Author), Stephen K. McDowell (Author)
November 27th, 2009
10:17 am
People like this Cooper fella just piss me off no end! If one dares disagree with a belief, one way or another, well, "Delta's ready…". Who in the hell do you think you are, Cooper…some sort of smaller-than-life demi-god? You can take your "Delta's ready…" nonesense and, together with your pea brain, GO TO HELL!
As for the insistence of the education elite in allowing an excess of tax-supported public ed energies to be directed toward non-academic end…perhaps this is why we have such a woeful state of education. Weather or not one chooses to pursue ecclesiastical studies should be a personal choice, not one mandated, and most-certainly not publically-funded, by "big brother".
And by the way, Cooper…what's wrong with condoms? You're not only a moron, but a stupid moron.
November 27th, 2009
10:20 am
Thanks for mentioning and agreeing with James Madison. He also wrote the Second Amendment, which allows us rednecks to carry firearms and hamper thugs from doing their business.
November 27th, 2009
10:24 am
Ms. Downey's essay didn't include the proximity to school, the quantity of bibles distributed, or whether the distribution was solicited. I revere the Bible as Yahweh's inerrant Word, as I am a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod Christian. As such, I actually read and study it. Jesus says at Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." I believe the primary concept in this commission is the "witness". Christians witness with their lives (i.e. words, actions-Elohim knows and judges our thoughts); in fact, the Greek word for "witness" is martyr. Since Christians are simultaneously saints and sinners, the seduction of extremes is a real danger, requiring constant vigilance, repentance and restitution.
Luke 3:7-16, Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 give some insight into what kind of Christian witness we should give. Christians should be the best scientists, thinkers, workers and citizens. Oftentimes we're not, and although God forgives we must still acknowledge and correct ourselves with our neighbors.
November 27th, 2009
10:27 am
A few thoughts…
The wall of separation was intended to protect the church from the state. The historical context shouldn't be ignored. Our country was founded by people who were forced into one form of Christianity or another by their European nations/kings. The American formula was to inhibit the state from imposing itself upon the Christian church. At that point, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, ect… were all prevalent and accepted in America. The intent of separating church and state was merely to allow these groups to co-exist rather than repeating the bloody history after the Reformation in Europe.
Today, we have a completely different society. Rather than protecting different forms of Christianity, our government tries to protect every religion equally. As noted above by others, this is really an impossibility. Atheism is the new state religion of the US. Good thing our hope is in Christ alone!


text:
want a margarita?
Hi! Thanks for being here! It's me, Charm. I'm from Manila, Philippines currently working as an IT Engineer. I'm passionate about traveling, make up, fashion, all types of music from heavy metal to jazz, technology, FOOD, movies, and just enjoying life to the fullest. Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Savior. Everyday He changes me to become the person He wants me to be.
I, myself, create all the posts here except for the links and unless stated otherwise.
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subset: commoncrawl


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text:
Dishonored Dunwall City Trials trailer makes a killing
The first DLC for Dishonored is out next week, and Bethesda has released a gameplay trailer showing how to make a quick killing against the hordes of NPCs you'll face in the new maps provided in Dunwall City Trials.
The DLC, which will add leaderboards for those posting the best scores racing through the 10 different single-player challenge maps, is out December 11 and will cost $4.99 (400 MS Points) for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. Two other story-based DLC packs for Bethesda's new franchise will come early next year.
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AmeriCares Responds to Urgent Aid Request from Malawi President: AmeriCares is delivering emergency... http://t.co/8faxxUmo
Given the extent to which it dominates global news and politics, it is remarkable how little we know about the men - and, very occasionally, women - behind Islamist extremism. How are people drawn ... [read more]
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Below is the letter that will be printed and delivered to the Board Secretary on your behalf. Please read and click SUBMIT at the bottom of the page.
Wendy Jamison - Board Secretary
Police and Firemen's Retirement System
Division of Pensions and Benefits
50 West State Street
PO Box 295
Trenton, NJ 08625-0295
Re: Violation of P.L. 2011 Chapter 78
Dear Ms. Jamison,
I am a member of the Police and Firemen's Retirement System.
I am writing because Gov. Christie's executive order cutting pension funding is a clear violation of P.L. 2011 Chapter 78, which says that "[t]he State and all other applicable employers shall make their annual normal contribution to each system or fund…. The State and all other applicable employers shall also make their annual unfunded accrued liability contribution to each system or fund…. The annual normal contribution plus the annual unfunded accrued liability contribution shall together be the annual required contribution." [All emphases added]
Further, P.L. 2011 Chapter 78 confers on fund members an explicit contractual right to both the benefit and the funding of that benefit. The law states that fund members have "…a contractual right to the annual required contribution amount being made…. The contractual right to the annual required contribution means that the employer or other public entity shall make the annual required contribution on a timely basis to help ensure that the retirement system is securely funded and that the retirement benefits to which the members are entitled by statute and in consideration for their public service and in compensation for their work will be paid upon retirement."
The Governor's failure to make the annual required contribution will infringe upon my contractual right. Therefore, I ask you to act on my behalf. The law authorizes the Board of Trustees of the Police and Firemen's Retirement System to take action to enforce the law, stating that the "failure of the State or any other public employer to make the annually required contribution shall be deemed to be an impairment of the contractual right of each employee. The Superior Court, Law Division shall have jurisdiction over any action brought by a member of any system or fund or any board of trustees to enforce the contractual right."
The Board of Trustees has a responsibility to protect the financial interests of the plan without regard for politics. If permitted, the Governor's intentional disregard for the law for this year and next will have a devastating impact on the fund's integrity and viability. I ask that you act expeditiously to file suit against the State, the Governor and any other relevant party or parties in order to prevent the violation of my contractual right and any attendant harm that will be done to me by Gov. Christie's failure to obey the law. I further ask that you appoint independent legal counsel to represent the Board in this action, as it would be a clear conflict for the Board to be represented by the Governor's attorneys, who will be defending his action.
Please copy and distribute this letter to each member of the Board of Trustees. Please also advise me in writing of how the Board intends to act to protect my interests.


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< Previous Page
Bayer AG agreed to buy Utah's Schiff Nutrition International Inc. for $1.1 billion to add a faster- growing vitamins and nutritional supplements business to the German drugmaker's consumer-health unit.
The deal marks the third billion-dollar acquisition of a state-based company this year. Earlier, Blackstone agreed to buy Vivint for $2 billion, and Permira Funds said it would buy Ancestry.com for $1.6 billion.
Schiff Nutrition International Inc.
What does it do? » Manufacturers and markets vitamins and other nutritional products
Headquarters » Salt Lake City
Annual revenue (2011) » $214 million
Employees » 414
Other big deals in Utah
Blackstone agrees to buy Vivint, 2012, $2 billion
Adobe Systems acquires Omniture, 2009, $1.8 billion
Permira Funds agrees to buy Ancestry.com, 2012, $1.6 billion
Novell acquires WordPerfect, 1994, $1.4 billion
Symantec acquires Altiris, 2007, $1 billion
Global Payments Inc. agrees to buy Accelerated Payment Technologies, 2012, $413 million
Cephalon acquires Anesta, 2000, $340 million
Watson Pharmaceuticals acquires Theratech, 1999, $300 million
|Join the Discussion
|Post a Comment
Schiff investors will receive $34 a share in cash, Bayer said in a statement Tuesday. The price is 47 percent above Schiff's closing level Oct. 26, the most recent day of stock trading in the U.S. Bayer also said its third-quarter profit rose 2.2 percent.
"Schiff has a 75 year heritage of providing consumers with quality nutritional products," Tarang Amin, president and CEO of Schiff, said in a prepared statement. "We are focused on building premium brands and leading innovation. We believe Bayer is well positioned to take our leading brands to the next level."
Schiff sells its brands primarily through retail outlets, with Costco and Walmart its largest customers.
The sale illustrates how mainstream food and pharmaceutical companies are moving into nutritional supplement and health food areas traditionally the venue of smaller companies, including many in Utah.
Bayer will strengthen its U.S. consumer-health unit with the Salt Lake City-based business. Signed about six weeks after Bayer agreed to buy Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd.'s animal-health business, the deal fits Bayer's strategy of building its life sciences unit with small- and midsized acquisitions, CEO Marijn Dekkers said.
"These are two of the areas that we are very committed to growing, both organically and with these bolt-on acquisitions," Dekkers said in a Bloomberg Television interview.
Schiff sales in the year ended May 31 totaled $259 million. The company said last month that sales this fiscal year would increase by 43 percent to 46 percent after its acquisition in April of Airborne, the cult cold-prevention remedy touted by Oprah Winfrey and originally marketed to airline passengers.
Schiff also makes Tiger's Milk nutrition bars, Omega-3 product MegaRed and Move Free, a pill for joints. Schiff, which during its 2011 fiscal year generated revenue of $214 million, has 414 employees.
The Utah company won't seek a competing offer, although it has the option to review unsolicited bids until Nov. 28, Schiff said in a regulatory filing. Chairman Eric Weider's company Weider Health and Fitness, which owns a controlling stake in Schiff, agreed to the deal, according to the filing.
"Nutritionals are a reasonably fast-growing area," said Alistair Campbell, an analyst at Berenberg Bank in London who recommends buying Bayer stock. "It broadens their product line."
The deal is expected to close by the end of 2012.
Schiff declined 0.4 percent, to close at $23.19 on the New York Stock Exchange Oct. 26. Trading was closed Monday and Tuesday in the U.S. because of Hurricane Sandy. TPG, the Fort Worth, Texas-based buyout firm, owns 34 percent of Schiff's shares, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
In 2010, Schiff sold 25 percent of its shares to the Texas private-equity firm, TPG Growth. Schiff exchanged 7.48 million shares from Weider Health and Fitness, its majority owner, for equity in the Texas company in a deal valued at $48.8 million, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
The purchase announed Tuesday, including net debt, values Schiff at 17.8 times this year's estimated earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortization. Buyers have paid a median 16.9 times profit for acquisitions of vitamin companies over the past five years, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
The purchase price is based on 31.1 million shares outstanding. Bayer also is assuming $122 million in net debt.
Growth in the health and crop-chemical business helped push earnings up in the third quarter, Bayer said in a separate statement. Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization and special items increased to 1.85 billion euros ($2.39 billion) from 1.81 billion euros a year earlier, Bayer said.
Copyright 2014 The Salt Lake Tribune. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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Pork with Poblano Chili, Grapes and Cracked Pepper
Bon Appétit | September 2000
Susanna Foo, Philadelphia, PA
Makes 4 servings
Ingredientsadd to shopping list
- 1 pound pork tenderloin, cut into 1/4-inch-thick slices
- 2 tablespoons plus 1/3 cup peanut oil
- 3 tablespoons soy sauce
- 4 teaspoons cornstarch
- 1/4 cup canned low-salt chicken broth
- 1 tablespoon oyster sauce*
- 6 green onions (white parts only), cut into 1-inch pieces
- 1 large poblano chili,** seeded, cut into matchstick-size strips
- 1 red bell pepper, cut into matchstick-size strips
- 2 garlic cloves, minced
- 1/2 cup red seedless grapes, halved
- 1 teaspoon coarsely ground black peppercorns
Mix pork, 2 tablespoons oil, soy sauce and 3 teaspoons cornstarch in medium bowl. Cover and refrigerate 1 to 3 hours. Mix 1 teaspoon cornstarch, broth and oyster sauce in small bowl.
Heat 1/3 cup oil in large skillet over high heat until very hot. Add half of pork; stir-fry 3 minutes. Transfer pork to strainer. Repeat stir-frying with remaining pork. Pour off all but 2 tablespoons oil from skillet. Add onions, poblano, bell pepper and garlic to skillet; stir-fry 2 minutes. Add pork, grapes, ground pepper and oyster sauce mixture. Stir until pork is coated with sauce. Serve immediately.
*Oyster sauce is available at Asian markets and some supermarkets.
**A fresh green chili, often called a pasilla, available at Latin American markets and some supermarkets.
my notes
Nutrition Informationper serving (4 servings) POWERED BY Edamam
- Calories412
- Carbohydrates12 g (4%)
- Fat29 g (45%)
- Protein26 g (51%)
- Saturated Fat6 g (28%)
- Sodium869 mg (36%)
- Polyunsaturated Fat9 g
- Fiber2 g (7%)
- Monounsaturated Fat13 g
- Cholesterol74 mg (25%)
recipe at a glance
type: Entertaining
main ingredients: Pork Tenderloin, Vegetable, Pepper, Bell Pepper, Grape, Pork
holiday/celebration: Fall


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White House Press Secretary Jay Carney walked a line between refusing to criticize the pastor who charged the "religious right" with racism while distancing President Obama from the remarks by emphasizing that the Obama family only attended the church service due to tradition.
"I wasn't there and I have not spoken with the president," Carney told reporters. "I know that he enjoys going to easter services with his family. "In keeping with the tradition that dates back many presidencies, he went right across the park here to St. John's Episcopal Church and attended services there."
During the Easter service, the Rev. Dr. Luis Leon said that "It drives me crazy when the captains of the religious right are always calling us back … for blacks to be back in the back of the bus … for women to be back in the kitchen … for immigrants to be back on their side of the border," according to the pool report.
Carney refused to comment on the sermon. "Again, I wasn't there — I don't have a characterization of his comments," he said.


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ATLANTA (AP) — The arrival of Southwest Airlines at Atlanta's airport last winter was greeted with balloons and fanfare amid predictions that the low-cost airline's presence would lead to lower prices.
Atlanta travelers haven't seen the drops in fares that the Dallas-based carrier brought to other cities -- and some fares are up, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported (http://bit.ly/12lq86K ).
A year after the airline's arrival, Southwest planes carry about 2 percent of passengers at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.
Southwest bought AirTran Airways in 2011 to gain a foothold in Atlanta, then launched its own service here last February. Southwest always said it planned to slowly meld the operations over two or three years.
But frequent AirTran travelers say they expected more visible evidence of a new owner that is the nation's largest low-cost carrier.
"I've actually been shocked that I haven't seen Southwest be more aggressive in the Atlanta market, because I thought we would see huge changes," said frequent flier Ed Cordell, who lives in Norcross.
AirTran was already posing price competition for Atlanta-based giant Delta Air Lines, so industry experts didn't expect Southwest's entrance to lower fares in Atlanta as much as it has in other cities where it was trying to capture new market share.
Fare trends nationwide are largely driven by fuel and other cost issues, Southwest spokesman Brad Hawkins said.
"All of the systemic fare increases that we've taken have been very deliberately decided and strategically made and I think are a reflection of the higher operating costs in all the markets that we're serving," he said.
Fares from Atlanta are down overall on some routes its own planes started flying in the past year, such as Austin, Denver and Houston, while prices are up on flights to Los Angeles and roughly the same to Chicago and Phoenix, Southwest said.
Information from: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, http://www.ajc.com


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Player of the week: Hannah Wood
Hannah Wood of Centennial, Colo., won the Kathy Whitworth Invitational on March 12 at Mira Vista Country Club in Fort Worth, Texas. Wood shot rounds of 70-74 to come from behind and win by one shot for Samantha Wagner. Wood's first round 2-under 70 tied for the second lowest score of the tournament.
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Where to Follow Your Art by Mary Miers
16th April 2014
For the collector of traditional and Modern British art, pockets of the country still stand out as having excellent galleries, well worth driving some distance to. These businesses can offer expert advice to both existing collectors and new buyers, from artists they should be looking out for to guidance on restoration, framing, hanging and lighting and often, they have more time to give.
In some cases, the buying, or browsing experience is enhanced by stylishly converted buildings, outdoor spaces and local distinctiveness.
Josie Eastwood Fine Art was mentioned as one of the magazine's favourites in the South of England.


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Ask the Readers: Is It Okay to Buy a Christmas Gift from a Thrift Store?
Published on - December 10th, 2010 (by J.D. Roth)
The holiday season can test a frugal person's patience: There are so many temptations to spend. Sure, we all want to enjoy the festive nature this time of year, but where do you draw the line? And how fugal is too frugal?
Michelle wrote with a terrific question. She has the sort of dilemma I can picture myself facing. Here's her story:
Like you, I am a big proponent of thrift store shopping. It saves money, and it's just more fun going to the mall — at least for me. Because I live in the New York City area, I'm fortunate in that many of the area thrift stores are filled with fantastic stuff, including designer and name-brand quality clothes, many of which are barely worn.
On a recent thrift-store trip, I picked up two designer handbags as Christmas gifts for my college-aged nieces, but now I'm having second thoughts.
- On the one hand, there's no way they would ever really acquire Coach and Kate Spade handbags on their own.
- On the other hand, I don't know if they share my acceptance and love for thrifting, and they may not react well to the thought of being gifted someone else's cast-offs.
Since new versions of these bags are clearly out my budget, there's no way to pass these things off as anything other than second-hand. What do you think? Is it tacky to purchase gifts at a thrift store?
My initial response to Michelle's question is that of course it's okay to purchase gifts at a thrift store — I do it all the time! But maybe that's because of the way my family has set up its gift exchange.
In my family, adults exchange $5 gifts: Each of us buys something costing no more than five bucks for every other adult. This arbitrary budget forces folks to get creative. And because of that, thrift stores are actually a fantastic place to find presents. Garage sales, too. (And I've spent many hours trolling Amazon for fun bargains.)
Here's my favorite example: Several years ago, I found a set of nice drafting pens for ten bucks at a garage sale. My brother used to draw house plans (though he no longer does), and I thought these would make a great Christmas gift. I haggled the price down to five bucks. Back home, I researched the actual price for the pens. They normally sold for about $70. Score! (I'm not sure if Jeff has ever used them, but this is the best $5 gift I've ever given.)
Obviously, not everyone is in a situation where giving bargain buys from garage sales and thrift stores is socially acceptable. But I'm willing to wager that there are plenty of people out there for whom this sort of thing is okay, at least to some degree.
But this is the sort of question where I definitely need to poll a wider audience. Not everyone shares my love of buying used. In fact, many GRS readers deplore thrift stores. Instead of steering Michelle down my own (possibly misguided) path, it's probably best to field responses from a variety of perspectives.
What do you think? When is it okay to purchase gifts from a thrift store? Is it always okay? Never okay? And what about Michelle's specific situation: Should she feel any shame in giving used designer handbags to her nieces this Christmas?
This article is about Ask the Readers, Frugality, Shopping
One thing you could do is just talk to the women.
"Hey, I saw this really awesome gift for you when I was shopping for me at a thrift store – how would you feel about getting a second hand present?"
You keep some of the surprise, but without the hurt feelings. My family does things differently though – we often discuss in advance what we may like or may be getting for Christmas. Our philosophy is "why waste money and clutter someone else's house with something they don't want when you could just talk to them about it?" Some things still are a surprise and some things aren't.
The purchase was already made, the intention was good, and the gifts are good gifts. Using "someone else's cast off" can be a little weird for the recipient and you really can't know what the bag was used for, but simple common sense and inspection of the bags is more than sufficient to decide whether they're in good shape.
Ultimately, the answer to the question will be resolved when the bags are given. One of three things will happen.
1. You'll receive a genuine, positive response and you can reasonably assume that you made the right gift choice.
2. You'll receive a positive response that is not genuine and you'll think that you've made the right choice.
Options 1 and 2 have the same outcome.
3. You'll receive a negative response and you'll know that you made the wrong gift choice.
I am sometimes aware that my gift ideas are not well received. Subtle indicators can tip you off. I couldn't understand, one year, why I had such a bad response when I got a friend the latest Weight Watchers cookbook…
However, most people realize that it's the thought that counts and decency dictates that they be grateful no matter what they're being given. It's good enough to know that someone cares about you enough to have put thought and action into something for you. If somebody doesn't know this now–because they're young–they'll probably learn it down the road.
My advice: give the bags as gifts and continue with being frugal. Their disappointment or satisfaction on one day of the year isn't worth sacrificing your good spending habits.
Merry Christmas!
Two words for you: CHINATOWN and KNOCKOFFS
Your little nieces will never know the difference! Or you can tell them you got them in Chinatown, and that makes it kind of a fun/NY thing.
It is absolutely OK to buy a Christmas gift from a thrift store! If the item is in good condition, and you have no reservations about passing it along, feel free to buy gift anywhere. Of course, the gift receipient's personal taste is always a factor.
It is just as easy to buy a worthless gift brand new as it is to buy one at a garage sale.
You know, if people are that worried about bedbugs we should all stay home and not travel at Christmas – because hotels are the worst way to expose yourself, even nice hotels.
The thing about gifts is that every person thinks their own personal preferences are universal. I would be SO HAPPY to get used gifts, or useful ones – but the gift-givers in my life think used or useful = not "gifty".
It really is the thought that counts – think about (or ask!) the recipient, and do what they want, and you'll be giving them respect and understanding. Trying to figure out a universal rule of what makes a good gift is useless.
(On our required gift-giving list we have a mix of people who only want shiny, new, expensive trendy things and people who prefer used. We try to accomodate.)
@Tyler #99 – see, I am horrified by the e-waste of the random electronic crap people buy for me. If i want something like an iPod, I ask my boyfriend – because he's willing to do the work to actually find a refurbished one in good condition, instead of thinking "wow that's a lot of work I'll just buy one of course she wants new, wanting used is weird."
It's not the thing itself that's valuable, it's how it expresses the relationship between people – and we have way too many obligatory gift relationships that say "I don't actually know you or share your values but I am pretending we're close."
I'd much rather get a used gift that is useful vs a new gift that is useless.
One of my cousins, used to always buy me some crap from the middle aisle of the department store..you know the snuggies and knicknacks and whatever is being pushed that season.
Those items went right to the salvation army on our way home, so I can vouch for the fact that there is plenty of new stuff at thrift stores too.
If the recipient is OK with it then great. If not then you're giving a gift that the person won't like. Thats not a good gift. Frugality is fine but the point of giving a gift is to give something the person wants and will appreciate.
I would suggest that anyone staying in a hotel should leave luggage in the car and check under the sheets for small bloodstains before deciding to stay in the room.
As for thrift store/used/ebay type items, I never order anything from NYC or Ohio, two places that are having a huge bedbug problem. If it comes from somewhere else, then used is worth considering.
My main concern with thrift store "designer" finds is that there is a very high probability that these items are fakes. I received a fake handbag as a gift once, and it went directly to the Salvation Army drop box.
The only time it would be acceptable to buy a gift at a thrift store would be if that would be appreciated by the recipient! If you are doing it to save yourself money or because you can't afford it then it is a terrible idea. It would be better not to get anything.
Don't get an animal rights activist a fur coat even if you'd like to receive one. Don't get a fashion diva last years designs just because you got it at a good price.
You should also know the person very well. I personally do not like wearing used clothing. Get me something like that and it will become a rag. But almost no one but my wife knows that. Also realize that you would be giving up all the warranties and returnability you get with a new item. You should be prepared to cover that yourself.
I don't have anything against thrift stores but I think buying gifts there is generally a bad idea.
As long as it's in good condition, why not? Fortunately, I don't gift to people who are "above" second-hand items.
I would rather give and/or receive an excellent, thoughtful, "perfect" gift second-hand than get another mug, candle, set of smelly bath crap (that "all" women like), etc. that is brand new.
I'd also rather give/receive the same instead of a gift card.
No matter where I'm shopping, if I see something and it screams someone's name, if the price is right, I'll get it.
In the same vein, I'm not going to go to Goodwill and buy a designer handbag and just give it to someone because it's designer and was cheap if I don't know anyone who would love it.
I would ask your nieces parent (your sibling) about it. They will know best what your nieces will think.
If it's something they'll really like and they're in great shape, why not?
Buying a Christmas gift from a Thrift store is okay but there are things you need to seriously consider. One is that the gift will not be returnable if they don't happen to like it. If it's something to wear and it doesn't fit they won't be able to exchange it for a different size or a different color. Plus there are no warranties or gaurantees on second hand items. Pick and choose your gift carefully and know the gift recipient almost as well as you know yourself or your outstanding frugality and thriftiness could backfire on you.
I think if the item is in like new condition it is fine if it came from a thrift store! It is better to give someone a thoughtful and classy gift (that you can actually afford) rather than some dumpy-looking brand-new sweater that was on a clearance rack! I am frugal not "cheap" what matters to me is that something is a good value. I wouldn't mind a second-hand book, retro kitchen item, fashion accessory, piece of furniture, or lamp because I have several of those things (I'm 25).
If you are really unsure, sell the bags on ebay and use the money to get something brand-new.
I'll agree with some of the other commenters here. It really comes down to who you're buying the gift for and the quality of the present. If it's a designer bag at a great discount, I don't see a problem with it. But some people would rather have a new bag from an Ann Taylor-type store than a second hand bag from Coach. Then, there are some other people who are into thrift stores and would actually love the fact that you got it there.
It's always okay, in my opinion. I don't see why people are so hung up on WHERE gifts come from. They're not mandatory, and especially in this economic climate. People just don't have the means to spend a fortune on your anymore. For someone to be upset that something came from the thrift store is just ungrateful (IMO).
I think it's just fine as long as (1) the item looks new and the recipient would have no idea where it's from or (2) the item is obviously used but you know the recipient well enough to know that she/he wouldn't mind that it came from a thrift store.
I buy gifts from thrift stores that are clearly used for people that I know won't mind. For example, rather than getting my sister's child 1 new book, I bought him about 20 used books for the same price as 1 new one. The kid was thrilled and young enough to not know the difference, and my sister shops at thrift stores and couldn't care less.
When I was younger, I would have been THRILLED with a designer bag, even if it was used. I couldn't have afforded a new one, and it would have been great to have been "in style" like that. You could try to find out if your nieces would be more happy or more grossed out by asking their parents or by casually asking them one day if they ever shop at thrifts stores. Or you could mention to them that you bought yourself a fancy handbag at a thrift store and see how they react.
I suppose the one problem with getting a "name" brand like Coach or Kate Spade from a Thrift store is that unless you are an EXPERT, you have NO way of knowing whether the bag is authentic…or just a fake.
It's very popular for scammers to re-create brands like Coach, Dolce & Gabbana, and Kate Spade and re-sell to them the public for slightly less prices. An unsuspecting person will buy the bag, thinking it's the real deal, and indeed, it looks legit – all the logos and tags are there. But a trained expert knows what to look for (ie, a holographic authenticity label, or the sort of materials used).
So you might go to a thrift store and buy what you THINK is a real Coach bag…and instead, you're giving your loved one a used fake. Kinda defeats the purpose of buying from a thrift store.
It depends on what you are giving and who you are giving it to. Really, a gift should be something the other person appreciates. If you don't know the person well enough to know whether they would be offended by it, xnay on the thriftay.
As far as purses I think they are a pretty finicky personal preference thing. Like others said, just because it's a Coach or Kate Spade doesn't mean that particular purse is one your neices necessarily like or would use taste-wise. That is, they are all not "equal". I would hate someone picking out purses for me.
In this particular example, I would think they are knockoffs (based on seeing so many at flea markets and not being a bag person (as it were) in the least.
In general, giving: depends. Probably not, although last year I gave my husband some legos I found for free and he loved them.
In general, getting: SURE. It's gonna be awesome, because it shows thought.
Re: the bags, I think it's probably fine, but to each their own. Obviously, there are a ton of different views on this, and it's impossible to know where your nieces stand on this. You can probably sort of tell by their personalities – are they artsy, thrifty type people? Or are their bedrooms filled with shiny new stuff? I love thrift stores and find it kind of easy to tell which people in my life feel the same. If all else fails, mention to them that you went thrifting and see how they react. I've found most people have one of two reactions – put off/bored (my family members who think thrift stores are gross places full of other people's nasty/substandard castoffs) or "Oooh. Where'd you go? What did you find? Did I tell you about the great coat I found at the Salvation Army?" It's pretty easy to tell which camp someone falls into by simply mentioning the topic.
Re: bedbugs, I have to admit, the bedbug resurgence has put a damper on what used to be an unabashed love of thrift stores and used items and has taken a little bit of the joy out of it for me, though I still buy a ton of used stuff. From researching online, I've found an easy way to make sure you're safe is to throw an item in the dryer on high for 20 minutes. I know some people will be horrified at my suggestion to throw a designer bag in the dryer, but I'd rather do that than have the fear of creepy crawlies in my head whenever I look at the item. You could throw them in a pillowcase to protect them before throwing them in the dryer. I do this with any thrift store item that can go in a dryer. The ones that can't, I inspect carefully for any signs of bedbugs.
One more comment – I have to agree with the people who are saying these bags are most likely knockoffs, unless you are and expert and know otherwise for sure.
Unless you know them to be authentic, I would say send them back to the thrift store from whence they came, or keep them for yourself, and find a different gift. IMO, knockoffs are tacky new and just plain unacceptable used (as a gift, anyway)
Haven't made my way thru the responses yet and I'm betting there are all sorts of people who say, "it's the thought that counts!". There's a lot of truth to that.
However, I wouldn't give a used item for Christmas. If I happened to be browsing thru the store any other time of year and came upon the purses, I'd pick 'em up and simply give them to my neices with an explanation. "Oh … I found these and I know your love of Kate Spade … do you like?".
Yes, I think it's tacky to give them as Christmas gifts.
Same thing with re-gifting. Re-gifting is okay if you ADMIT to it. If you were to say, 'someone gave this to me and while it's not my taste/size/colour/etc, I thought you might be interested like it … and I definitely want it to go to someone who would love it."
If the gift is in good quality (whether new or used) and something the recipient can enjoy/appreciate, I don't see why the source of the gift should matter.
That said, I can easily envision other people not seeing this the same way so it may also be dependent upon the person receiving the gift.
Unless you know 100% these bags are authentic-then no.
I've found that high dollar bags @ the thrift are generally fakes-especially if they are in good condition.
My family and my husbands are total opposite in this regard! Mine: Very frugal and very practical. Perhaps too much so!! We usually ask each other what we want/need for Christmas. We usually ask for practical things we genuinely need. Finding something nice (key word: nice!)at a thrift store or garage sale would be bragged about! "I got you this deluxe baking pan like you wanted for only $3 at garage sale!". Seriously! Husbands family: Gifts must be a surprise. Do not ask what someone wants/needs. Practical gifts are an insult. Gifts should be more "frivolous". A gift from a thrift store? Good grief NO! Even buying a new gift on sale at a good price (from a regular store) is frowned upon because "then you did not spend enough" and you would need to buy something else to make up for it! Yes, polar opposites!
As mentioned by others, just because it's a Coach or Kate Spade bag does not mean it's attractive. If her nieces care about labels, they probably care about having the latest styles, and I would bet that the bags in question are at least a few years old.
Personally, as a college student I didn't have much need for a purse; most of the time I was carrying a backpack. Her nieces probably carry laptop bags most of the time.
My gut would be not to give the bags as primary Xmas gifts. But in the interest of teaching thrifting, give them later on as a "saw this and thought you might like it" offering, and use the opportunity to talk about where they came from, money saved, etc.
Haven't read all the comments. Hate to be a party pooper, but 99.99% of designer purses at thrift stores are fakes, sold at "purse parties" or the like. Kate Spades and Coaches are among the usual knock-off suspects.
I would give the purses to the nieces (after figuring out if they are authentic) as a side gift.
Many items at thrift stores don't reveal their provenance: they could be from an antique store, a vintage store (both OK for some reason). Many items are new, some with tags.
If you're uncomfortable, you could "white lie" and say they are from Buffalo Exchange.
I don't know, this sort of reminds me of giving something along the lines of a fruit cake… sorry!
Personally I have no problem with thrift stores and have found some great bargains there: clothes for my family, furniture, decorative items, etc.
What bothers me about this example is the power of advertisers. Personally I think many people are influenced by ads touting a brand name which often costs a small fortune. This to me is materialism at its worst. That a person is impressed by a brand of clothes, handbags, make-up, car, etc, and may not feel 'worthy' unless they have those, has always bothered me.
I love craft shops and bargain shops which offer good quality and often unique items that I find much more interesting than designer things….
Maybe I'm too narrow in my thinking, but having lived overseas for over 30 years – in both developing and prosperous countries – I've been in places where workers make those designer bags and know the workers are paid a pittance compared to the end price of the bag. As a matter of principle, I buy locally crafted – and unique – items when possible.
But I digressed…is it ok to buy Christmas gifts from a Thrift Store? If I found the perfect gift for someone, yes, I'd buy it there. But while gift shopping I'd consider the recipient's overall personality before buying their gift from a thrift store.
i wouldn't give a $100 or $10 for any handbag, real, fake, authentic or otherwise…and sorry they are made in china just like tons of other useless crap that people won't re-purpose or re-gift because it's (gasp) used!
134It was great reading these responses- thanks for posting my question, JD!
I don't think my nieces would be surprised I got their gifts from a thrift shop. My whole family knows of my financial situation, and they know I dress myself really well on my thrift and consignment store finds.
I'm not worried about bedbugs- these bags have been in my posession for over a month now, and there have been no problems yet.
To answer the questions: they are both in fantastic shape. The Coach bag definitely real. If the Kate Spade bag is fake, it's a really good one.
I've decided to give them as gifts, just not the only gift. I've crocheted them both scarves to match other gifts I know they're getting, and picked up a few little things that I know they'll use and love, to put inside. In essence, the bags are wrapping. If I sense they have any issue with it, I'll offer to take them back and get them something else.
Everyone says it is the thought that counts! If money is an issue and you really put a lot of thought into the gift, why should it matter?
What's the purpose of the gift? To demonstrate your frugality to your nieces, or to give them an appreciated gift? Presumably we give gifts that will be of some value or use to the receiver. I mean the whole crap about the thought that counts only matters when the gift can be appreciated or useful to the receiver. If not, then it is a waste of money, no matter if you bought the item used or not.
The other question is why are you trying to demonstrate frugality by buying a label? The label only matters to other people's perception of what you own, and are you in the habit of buying things for yourself for other people's enjoyment or your own? Demonstrating frugality would dictate the latter.
I also echo that the item has a high probability of being a fake, in which case you are demonstrating another bad lesson. If you are ok with fakes, then you are ok with trying to portray an image of being able to live beyond your means. Not a frugal principle.
Personally, as long as it is something that genuinely fits them as a gift and not just something cheap you grabbed off the shelf thoughtlessly {I have received these and it's disappointing even though I should be grateful they thought of me) it should be fine. I think thrift stores are a great place to find gifts as long as you do it mindfully. I think Brian comment #50 said it very well. There is no obligation to give a gift let alone a new one they probably wouldn't like as much as the wonderful bags you found at the thrift store.
A gift that may not be used or appreciated isn't a bargain, regardless of what a "deal"it was ($70 pens for $5).
hahaha, this topic gets more responses than
- world domination
- one's relationship with money
- eating cheaply
I would use the bags as the "gift bag/wrapping" and toss something small, inexpensive, and brand-new inside. Like make-up items, lip balm, whatever a college kid "needs" these days that fits inside a purse.
I'm going to disagree with the majority here. Not for a Christmas present!! I buy a thrift stores myself but would be offended– "My aunt went shopping at a Salvation Army?? That's being a bit of a cheapskate, hm? Not even Christmas is a reason for you to spend a little bit more money on me (make a bit of a sacrifice for my enjoyment)?" Christmas feels like a chance to spend a little more than usual to get something special for your loved ones– getting something for a few dollars should NOT be the point. Unless you're known in your family to be very poor, I wouldn't do it. This may be buying into a consumerist fantasy but it still may affect how your nieces feel about your gift.
One other thing to think (and ask) about is that often the whole point of designer items is that they are a status symbol rather than a quality symbol– so if you have the bag it mean you have enough money to have the bag. It's different from quirky vintage clothing that way.
I'd give another gift, perhaps with the bag "on the side".
I think you have to know the people you are buying for and know what they will appreciate it. While it may be a great deal and something they'd never afford on their own, if they are designer yet out of style/season they may not be willing to use them anyway. If they are just going to sit in their closet unappreciated, then it was a waste on your part to get/give them. However, if these are girls who don't care if things are the latest styles, then go for it. If they aren't going to appreciate it then you may as well not have gotten them anything at all.
Hey- I would totally, 100% love a great new bag no matter WHERE it came from. I found a Guess bag for $8 at a thrift store and STILL love it after 4 years.
It really depends on your family. If they wouldn't mind, then go for it. Try grabbing a new wallet that matches if you feel bad about it, or something small to go with it.
i like it
@134 Michelle
Awww. You're an awesome aunt. I hope your nieces appreciate you!
It depends on several factors. I would prefer a new current trend inexpensive bag over a several year old Coach style. So I would just be cautious regarding the motive behind the purchase e.g., perceived deal on brand name.
I love thrift shopping, however I always gift new items. At the end of the day I am trying to find a gift the person will love.
If the gift is something you KNOW they will LOVE (even if it is used), then yes.
On a side note, over the years I have asked to stop exchanging gifts with many people. It was a decision that I don't regret. I was often getting items I did not want or need and spending money that I would have preferred to go to other places. With the money you save you can buy yourself what you really want instead of getting a closet full of stuff that you don't want or need. Instead I would rather spend time at a dinner or with friends and focus on that instead of the gift.
I also would prefer something well made, frugal and interesting from a thrift store over 99.9% of the crap in department stores.
JD can you tell us more about the 5$ gift exchange? What kinds of gifts do people give? Gift giving is supposed to be fun, not stressful ohmygodithastobeperfect. That sounds like it will still be well thought out and creative but without the pressure
In general, thrift store gifts are only OK if you find something very special or hard to find that you are certain the giftee wants or if you are giving to a another thrifty person. In any other case I would give it as "I found this and thought of you. Would you use it?" and not as a holiday gift. College age girls who like Coach and Kate Spade handbags usually aren't thrifty.
Holiday present discussions contain all kinds of pat truisms: it's the thought that counts, give something you would like, etc. IMO, these things aren't true. Gifts should be something tailored to the recipient, not lessons on how to live or a reflection of your values.
In Utopia none of us would be buying presents for others if we weren't specifically inspired or close enough to know exactly what they would love. Here in the real world we all face this problem during the holidays. After years of looking for meaningful, interesting, unique, add-your-own-adjective gifts for family members when I have no idea what to buy, I've learned to let it go. If I have a brilliant thought I go with it. If not, I buy returnable or generic gifts or gift cards.
Why stress yourself?
I think a thrift store gift is fine, if you are buying something special there such as a collectible or even special piece of vintage clothing, if that is something the recipient is into. However, to just go there and buy a shirt or something which is contemporary, I would say no – get that at a regular store, even a low-price store, over a thrift store. Thrift stores can be great places to find the unusual or special item but certainly depends on whom you are giving the gift to and should be judged accordingly.


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