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- Posted on:
October 16, 2012
- Categories: Hyperlocal, Media Power 20
What a disappointment hyperlocal blogging has turned out to be.
Five years ago, Birmingham could claim to be at the forefront of a 'movement' that seemed to offer a glimmer of hope that there was an answer to the decline of traditional local media.
The democratic deficit left behind as papers and TV retreated from the territory marked 'holding power to account' could be filled – it was hoped – by a growing band of independent, socially active and civic-minded citizens who could use their digital skills to create news and information services for their neighbourhoods.
Led by the brilliant Jon Bounds and his 'Birmingham It's Not Shit' (BiNS) site, a number of energetic, engaging and professional-quality local sites did thrive. Blogs for Digbeth, Acocks Green, Bournville, B29, Castle Bromwich and Lozells sprung up and blossomed. Created in Birmingham served the – err – creative and arts communty and LiveBrum provided a brilliant events listing service for the city.
Channel Four helped fund a national body for hyperlocals and it located itself in Birmingham, the Birmingham Mail started sharing content and links with some local sites and the Guardian dabbled with its own branded hyperlocals in Leeds and Cardiff (but not in Brum).
And then? Well, not a lot, really.
Many of the early sites have withered on the vine (follow some of the links in this compendium to see what I mean), the Guardian pulled the plug last year, and the notable exceptions are just that – exceptions. Dedicated volunteers keep things going in Lichfield and Stoke, and our own Dave Harte keeps the flame alive in Bournville.
But most of the true hyperlocal, neighbourhood, blogs seem to run out of steam – and I know having created the Harborne Mile blog in a fit of enthusiasm, and failing to follow through because I had to go and earn a living. Those blogs that work tend to concentrate on specific niches or special interests – but even then their owners seem strangely uninterested in ensuring the blog's continued viability by embracing a commercial approach.
So a viable and sustainable model has yet to emerge which we can point to as the answer to that 'democratic deficit', but I wouldn't write-off the movement just yet. As the retreat from community-level coverage by the traditional media continues, the opportunity for hyperlocals will surely get larger. Also, the ever-decreasing cost of production of even audio and video content must surely increase the potential for the right approaches to make money and professionalise their services.
But the real prize is a more ruthlessly commercial approach that embraces the potential of aligning hyperlocal content with hyperlocal advertising. Paradoxically, this will require hyperlocal sites to come together in a single body to aggregate their audience figures to a level where they're a compelling option for major, multisite national advertisers such as Tesco.
I also believe that the public sector can and should play a part. Not by publishing hyperlocals itself, or doling out grants to worthy sites, but by targeting a portion its considerable marketing spend through specifically hyperlocal channels.
I'm probably being unfairly critical of all those who give up many hours of their time each week to deliver a vital community service, but surely a true commercial strategy is the only option to ensure hyperlocal sites have futures beyond the transient interests of their hobbyist founders?
Nevertheless, many of you have contacted me to nominate a phalanx of hyperlocal bloggers for the Midlands Media Power 20, so here they are, with links to their various sites:
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October 16, 2012 2:29 pm
Expecting a "ruthlessly commercial approach" from "independent, socially active and civic-minded citizens" strikes me as being a little like expecting a tabby cat to bring down a gazelle.
October 16, 2012 4:22 pm
I can see why a shopkeeper might be expected to have some commercial nous, but I don't think it follows that a blogger should. Actually, in many cases, I reckon that setting up a hyperlocal blog in order to make money would be a pretty pointer to a lack of commercial nous.
Re sustainability, the ideal with CiB wasn't that it would become profitable enough to support a salaried staff, it was that there would be lots of people doing their own thing (commercial or otherwise). Point being, the ecology would be sustained, with individual organisms coming and going. I think that ties in the comments by the two Jons below to some extent.
October 17, 2012 11:14 am
Aren't you the archetype of the hyper-local blogger turned shop-keeper proving the point about [lack of] commercial nous? I mean that actual shop you kept in the Bullring.
Sorry. Don't even know why I'm getting in on this. Maybe because it feels so nostalgic.
October 17, 2012 5:09 pm
Zing! But also yes. Not sure how I missed that – guess my memory still sees fit to block out that episode of my life.
October 16, 2012 3:15 pm
I can see that it's tempting to look at these websites through a model that can easily be identified – the commercial production of news. There are of course other known models that we could use – such as community media. Perhaps if you frame them in a different way you might say that they have succeeded?
To go back to Chris's point: as much as I like his metaphor, sustainability in the sense of maintaining and reproducing the means of production is a capitalist notion, while sustainability to achieve a desired social outcome is an activist one. Histories of community, activist and alternative media (I recommend the work of Chris Atton) suggest that longevity of production for its own sake is seldom a primary objective of such production. I find it unremarkable that some hyperlocal projects come and go in concert with the lifecycle of their producers or the achievement of their objectives.
October 16, 2012 3:42 pm
I forget who said it (or actually I know, but hey, go Google) about perception just being one way to cut through the WGMM (Whole General Mish-Mash) and with hyperlocal content that's what's going on right now: there's tons of it out there, but most isn't created on sites that were (mainly) modeled on how traditional newspapers did their thing. It might just be the model that's wrong rather than the scale.
The sustainable structure is there by and large: the Internet.
October 16, 2012 4:04 pm
just a btw I don't think that LiveBrum deserves being past-tensed.
October 16, 2012 9:31 pm
Speaking for myself, as the person who set up Birmingham Alive! as the first truly comprehensive events listing website for Birmingham in 1998, and managing to keep it going as a truly comprehensive events site until as late as 2010, it's not an absence of a commercial approach which caused it to fizzle out of its primary function, or again cause it to fizzle out of its second wind of function as a city centre news aggregation site earlier this year – it's simply a lack of time on my part to devote to it. Back when I was devoting the most amount of time to it I was single, had a relatively undemanding job (or was unemployed), and little else to occupy my time. Now I have a wife and a cat, like to watch telly in the evening, and have a job which leaves no 'slack time' during the day to even spend the odd half an hour every other day or so to top up the content. Unless I was able to make the blog so monetised it could pay a wage even half what my current salary is, no amount of adoption of a commercial approach would be able to solve that problem. I suspect most of the other longstanding bloggers are in similar situations.
October 16, 2012 9:31 pm
We are always looking to link in with hyperlocal bloggers. Birmingham bloggers are welcome to get in touch http://www.twitter.com/brumpolice.
October 17, 2012 6:45 am
And that's an example of one reason the 'scene' (if it indeed was) died in the end—pressure from certain quarters to 'go mainstream', which seemed to be essentially to act as a conduit for large Governmental or other public bodies. There's no money or enjoyment in churning press releases—as local newspapers have found too.
October 17, 2012 9:05 am
Don't forget it was also fun. There was something in the water: suddenly a network emerged in Birmingham, people got excited, met new friends. Eventually, inevitably, that settled down and people moved on.
October 17, 2012 9:13 am
Also, 'failed to deliver' what? I don't remember anyone promising to deliver anything.
October 17, 2012 9:27 am
As Daz said, apparently the hopes and dreams of an entire industry were resting on our shoulders.
October 17, 2012 9:33 am
Hee! Where did he say that?
October 17, 2012 9:34 am
On teh wittrs. Which is where most of 2008/9s hyperlocal bloggers do most of our 'social media content creation activity' anyway.
October 17, 2012 9:23 am
Marc, thanks first of all for mentioning us in such a positive light
I'd say it's dangerous to treat the Guardian's Local project as hyperlocal. A media operation covering a major city (pop. 340k-450k) is hardly comparable to a site like ours covering 30,000 or 2,500 as in Loddon. Plus, while the Guardian had a good philosophy about the journalism there was a massive failure to recognise that local content must be matched with local advertising if it's to succeed. I refer you to Rick Waghorn's extensive writings on that.
On viability of hyperlocals what it's important to remember is that they are quite often hobbies. When you start a hobby you don't generally think about having to turn it into a home business just to make it sustainable. Instead, if work or other pressures stop you from pursuing that hobby, you just stop – and that's precisely what's happened with many hyperlocals.
Success or failure for a hyperlocal depends entirely on the initial aim. If the aim was to replace the traditional media then, yes, Birmingham's bloggers have failed to deliver. However, I think most would agree when I say that was never the aim. Most hyperlocals, I think, would agree that they complement (or scrutinise) the local media in many cases. Yes, if they stop then the community may well lose out, but not to the extent that they will if they lost the local paper.
Just a note on "Channel Four helped fund a national body for hyperlocals" I would hesitate to call TAL that. In fact, I think it was at TAL12 that Will himself said they'd never sought to represent hyperlocals, but merely to assist the sector. The Hyperlocal Alliance was established to look towards that, although I don't think we'll ever have a truly representative body a) because of the wide variety in the sector and b) the time cost is probably far too high for many site owners to take part.
So while I'm sympathetic about your belief in a need for a single body, I'm not entirely convinced such a thing is feasible. It's interesting you mention local advertising from the likes of Tesco. Many site owners won't take adverts from nationals on principle, and I thoroughly understand that – we have some very strict rules on that ourselves. We have however been approached a couple of times about carrying adverts from national brands and I suspect it will happen eventually, and it'll be interesting to see how it looks on the site and how our readers react.
From there I think the Hyperlocal Alliance, rather than pooling sites, could be well placed to help spread advertisers to other hyperlocals, through the networking that happens there. There have already been some nice outcomes from the Alliance (including free training) and there is healthy discussion and I hope that continues and flourishes.
October 17, 2012 9:26 am
"But the real prize is a more ruthlessly commercial approach that embraces the potential of aligning hyperlocal content with hyperlocal advertising"
I'm reminded of the cheesy adverts for the curry house which you used to get in the interval at the pictures – "only 5 minutes walk from this cinema". Of course, it's all very well the hyperlocal blogger having the commercial nous to think about putting hyperlocal adverts on their blog (notwithstanding the fact that for many of the blogs – *and their audiences* – the idea of putting adverts on the sites is anathema as it introduces the perception of the same lack of editorial independence which advert-funded mainstream media suffers from), but that also relies on the operators of the shops and businesses in the hyperlocal area also having the commercial nous to think it's worth paying for an advert on the blog in the first place. And of course why would they need to have such 'commercial nous'? After all, the Selly Sausage cafe and the Tool Discount Centre on the Bristol Road manage to attract plenty of custom just by their existence on the high street, without needing to buy an advert on The Selly Oak Acorn.org.uk; you might argue that the plumber who lives on Katie Road might be a different case who could benefit from an ad – but then, why would that plumber pay for an ad when she could just as easily create her own free one page shop window website which would be more likely to show up in a Google Search for 'plumber selly oak' anyway? Better still, she could create her own hyperlocal blog about plumbing, sharing her amusing stories of pipes she's unblocked, developing her reputation and attracting further custom that way!
October 17, 2012 10:24 am
A good point – the answer though is because most hyperlocal bloggers are not marketing professionals, they're plumbers and lecturers and gardeners and unemployed people themselves. The hyperlocal bloggers who *are* marketing professionals can and do help out other small businesses and community groups, sometimes for free, sometimes for free.
October 17, 2012 10:01 am
Thought-provoking, as ever. A good warm-up for the gig on Thursday; alas I'm elsewhere that day…
201 points can be made; and I don't intend to revisit the GdnLocal debate again; but unsustainable my a*se would be the phrase that both I and, I suspect, Emily Bell would reach for…
The sweet spot for commercial sustainability – albeit in every likelihood on a part-time basis – is where Tesco (Selly Oak) meets the butcher, the baker and the Selly Oak candlestick-maker.
Open at 'both ends' ie to top down advertisers seeking local exposure and bottom up SMEs seeking local audience.
This we can now deliver: https://beta.addiply.com/network
The challenge for AboutMyArea/B12 is that James has no udience. But I can now get the message into Tescos corporate comms team that the *opportunity* exists – sit does for Birmingham CC or regional health authority to place message in B12.
And we can now out-source sales to third parties; the kit is there; the thinking is in place. Now go build….a
October 17, 2012 10:05 am
I think Marc doth protest a little too much here, and knows that really profits aren't the measure of most hyperlocals. For Help Me Investigate, the point was always 'what could you do without a profit motive'. More and more I'm persuaded that a volunteer-based model, as HMI became, is vitally important for plurality in journalism, alongside the developing for-profit and publicly/trust/privately funded models.
The issue is sustainability, not profitability. Profitability is just one route to that, but I don't think it's a likely or even important one at this scale. If hyperlocal bloggers have 'failed to deliver', it is in anticipating the burnout problem and handing the blog over to other people. But that's a learning curve.
We also have to accept dead blogs as an integral part of the scene. It costs nothing. And if an issue springs up and passions are reignited, the dead can be resurrected. That costs nothing either. The scene has at the very least created a latent network and community which continues in some places and can be reactivated in others. For that, many people deserve enormous credit.
October 17, 2012 10:33 am
My mistake: I should have said commerciality or something similar. But the apparent lack of interest is probably because for most a commercial model isn't needed, for the same reason that a fleet of vans isn't needed. Investing effort in building revenue streams means taking it away from the editorial focus and community purpose of the blog. For a spare time operation that might be all the time you have. You might argue that the result of that investment would mean being able to hire, etc. but that won't be a priority for many. Indeed in many ways it might be asking a hobbyist to spend less time practising their hobby so they can pay someone else to do it.
October 17, 2012 10:16 am
If predictions haven't come true that probably means the predictions were wrong, not that someone or something has failed to make them come true:) Isn't the lesson here one about trying to predict the future? It's fun and interesting, but you have to do it in the awareness that neither you nor anybody else really knows what the future holds. Don't be surprised when it's not what you expected!
For what it's worth, what I think has happened is that people like to be part of conversations and there was a time when we thought those conversations would take place via blogs. It turns out that Twitter and Facebook are easier and more attractive places for many people to talk to each other. Blogs are there too but as part of the mix.
The idea that blogs would replace local papers or in some way do what the mainstream media does (but better or more local or whatever) was actually pushed as far as I could tell by professional journalists more than hyperlocal bloggers. But I think there was a bit of a tendency on both sides of the fence to forget that writing and researching articles is actually hard work. If you're not being paid for it then you are going to do it when something comes up which motivates or inspires you – not out of the sense of duty required to provide fresh new copy day after day, even when you're feeling knackered and just want to watch X-Factor. You can always say to bloggers "quit your job and turn your blog into a business and update it every day like a local newspaper" if you want to but I imagine most will reply "why should I do that and who are you anyway?"
October 17, 2012 11:26 am
October 17, 2012 10:23 am
You're right that the 'replacement' idea was pushed more by traditional journalists concerned about these new entrants into their region. You're also right about the hard work – one thing I've learnt from Ross (the journalist of our operation) is that journalism is an incredibly important activity, whether you call it journalism or not.
October 17, 2012 10:28 am
What I find most confusing in this article is Marc's admission that "…and I know having created the Harborne Mile blog in a fit of enthusiasm, and failing to follow through because I had to go and earn a living."
In other words, hyperlocal bloggers are failing in the same way that the author of the critique of hyperlocal bloggers failed.
Why didn't Harborne Mile have a "fundamentally commercial approach"?
Maybe for the same reasons some of the other blogs mentioned didn't?
October 17, 2012 10:44 am
..and my point is that as a person who started and then understandably moved on from running such a site, you must have the answer to your own question!
Compare it to any other form of volunteering. People do it for as long as it works out for them. Sometimes they get others on board so the activity outlives their involvement, sometimes they don't.
There's a danger here that you will frighten anyone considering starting blogging by burdening them with all the responsibility from the start!
October 17, 2012 10:58 am
There's also the issue that persuading other volunteers to share in writing for one's site is often easier said than done; in the middle period of Birmingham Alive! when it was running on its own bespoke CMS I had ideas of effectively franchising the platform out to other towns / cities, letting other people use the same CMS but put their own content in it – but approaching people I knew (even some now notably famous hyperlocal bloggers themselves) didn't get any bites because they were busy doing their own things.
And then in the latter era, when I realised I was running out of steam in going to events and writing reviews of them afterwards, and offered it out to other people – making general as well as specific call-outs – I also got no response; that particularly surprised me that even the offer of free tickets to events (even events which would have cost £50+ at the NIA) wasn't enough to attract people to share the workload!
October 17, 2012 5:35 pm
"Surely it's fair to suggest that having established something of such value, it might be the responsibility of the founders to at least attempt to put them on a more sustainable footing?"
I think that's where the problem lies, Marc. As many sites are merely part time hobbies it isn't fair to expect the site owner to put them on a solid footing. Most, I imagine, would hand them over to willing volunteers but there should be no expectation from anyone for any of these sites.
October 17, 2012 11:03 am
"Led by the brilliant Jon Bounds and his 'Birmingham It's Not Shit' (BiNS) site, a number of energetic, engaging and professional-quality local sites did thrive. Blogs for Digbeth, Acocks Green, Bournville, B29, Castle Bromwich and Lozells sprung up and blossomed.
Many of the early sites have withered on the vine (follow some of the links in this compendium to see what I mean), the Guardian pulled the plug last year, and the notable exceptions are just that – exceptions. Dedicated volunteers keep things going in Lichfield and Stoke, and our own Dave Harte keeps the flame alive in Bournville.
But most of the true hyperlocal, neighbourhood, blogs seem to run out of steam [...]
Gee, thanks Marc.
I see Acocks Green is shown without any links. So we're one of those areas which has 'withered on the vine' presumably? In 2008/9 The picture in Acocks Green was Acocks Green Focus Group website already well established, Acocks Green Neighbourhood Forum having a somewhat dead website, but looking to re-start. There was also the very well established Acocks Green History Society website and a plethora of smaller blogs which might not be posting that often.
So what's the picture like today?
We (AGFG) are still here. http://acocksgreenfocusgroup.org.uk/ We are essentially a campaign group, so we post on our blog when we campaign. Our present main campaign is about saving a threatened 1924 church hall: The Glynn Edwards Hall . There have been a lot of posts recently, and then a slight pause because there has been a pause in events, plus I have been away, but there will be something soon. We are also featuring a picture of Acocks Green in Bloom (We are proud of winning a bronze at first attempt.)
Although already an established group, work with Nick Booth helped to point up that we should make better use of Twitter. We now have a very active presence on Twitter as @AcocksGreenFG and run our latest tweets down the side of the blog, so there is always something happening there. Correction: I have been away for two weeks and have just spotted that our Twitter link is down which is unusual, but shall now be working on it. However, this has also proved to be a very good way of relating to many other people. Quite a few people in Acocks Green from local politicos to the vicar's wife are also now on Twitter and this way we spread our message and pick up, and debate, a lot of news from around the city and from other hyperlocals too .
Acocks Green Neighbourhood Forum – http://acocks-green-neighbourhood-forum.org/ started a new website after working with the new hyperlocal scene and Nick. This has proved very successful and is still going strong – last post Oct 9 2012. They provide a very useful service especially around local events, local culture, local facilities and programmes generally, and report on the meetings of Acocks Green Neighbourhood Forum. We also liaise with their web mistress, Ged, through Twitter – @Ged_Hughes
There are two good political hyperlocals in Acocks Green:
http://johnoshea.blogspot.co.uk/ (Last post Oct. 17) John is also on Twitter as @politicalhackuk and we often talk that way
and http://rogerharmer.mycouncillor.org.uk/ (Last Post Oct 7) Roger is also occasionally on Twitter as @Rogerbhx
The Grandaddy of all Acocks Green websites is the very good Acocks Green History website at http://aghs.jimdo.com/ This is more of an old fashioned website than a modern blog, and was going long before the hyperlocal scene started, but it is full of very useful information, probably the best local history website in the city and invaluable for information on local conservation issues. Local bloggers now sometimes link to it, and Mike Byrne, the webmaster now occasionally links to us, as well.
There are, as before, a handful of smaller local blogs which do not appear to be doing very much. It is probably inevitable that some blogs will start and then struggle, but we now have a strong presence from five blogs/websites and and an active presence on Twitter. Some of this was around before the hyperlocal movement sprung up, but this has definitely helped enhance things. It is now quite easy to find out what is going on in Acocks Green whether you are looking for a cultural event, campaign updates, political reports or want to know more about a local building. I think we now also have more of a presence city wide and do a bit of stirring now and then in debates there!
So: where are w
I see
October 17, 2012 11:04 am
We failed to deliver?
What did we fail to deliver? Maybe we delivered 'exactly' what we wanted and then moved on.
Unlike the dead tree press, hyperlocals can move on, they aren't heavily invested in an archaic content delivery process with lots of highly trained and woefully underpaid staff who are dumbed down in a lot of cases just to fill in the gaps around the adverts.
Over the years the dead tree press have taken great joy in deriding the hyperlocal sites and Marc to be honest I think you are guilty of doing this in this very piece. I bet there isn't one news type hyperlocal that hasn't been targeted in some way by their local press. Just last night I saw the esteemed editor of a large local paper snidely remarking
'Headline howler of the week (pt2). Or, why it takes more than just a web connection to be a journalist' and pointing to a headline on a hyperlocal site.
This is the editor of the same paper who's journalists used to come on to Pits n Pots and anonymously correct our grammar or spelling, journalists who were to stupid to realise that only journalists use [sic] because they don't want people to think they are dumb.
We always used to get told 'you're not proper journalists, you don't do the research…'
Marc if you had done a bit of research you will have seen that the 'dedicated volunteer' (me), over at Pits n Pots hasn't posted any content in over 11 weeks due to holidays, personal and work commitments. Pits n Pots isn't dead but I'm certainly not keeping things going at the moment.
Going back the failed to deliver aspect, just because one site doesn't do as well as you expected and closes doesn't mean they have failed or there is a deficit, often a new site or sites will come in to fill the gap. In Stoke there are a couple of sites that are doing the work we used to do on PnP. Rather than thinking about the one site failing to deliver, think of it as the hyperlocal version of a change of editor, rebrand or even change of format all the things & phrases the dead tree press as so fond of using to try and believe that they are still viable businesses.
Ultimately the other sites in Stoke are and may well continue to do a better job than I am doing, which is great it means that there is still a market, an appetite and a desire, even better it means I can retire, if I wish, knowing that power is still being held to account by someone.
As for the 'ruthlessly commercial approach' and 'hyperlocals coming together', the dead tree press have already done this research for us in the guise of Local People sites….
October 17, 2012 11:21 am
Is there a problem with the city rather than the people involved? Hyperlocal media seems to be enjoying commercial success elsewhere in the country so at first sight it seems anomalous that the enthusiasm in Birmingham has not translated into much that is sustainable.
I've lived in both London and Birmingham so perhaps a comparison between the two might give some clues.
Firstly Birmingham is more city centre centric. Brummies shop, eat, drink and play more in town than do Londoners who tend to see the centre as somewhere that tourists go. This significantly reduces potential hyperlocal ad spend in key areas. London is more a college of villages than Birmingham where my impression is that borders between different parts of town are more blurred and association with the very local is less strong. There are exceptions to this, I'm talking in generalities.
Secondly, the printed press has been more resilient in Birmingham than London. Granted the contraction in Birmingham has been brutal but it's been worse in London with many areas not being covered by a newspaper. This has given some digital news providers a monopoly which has made commercial success much easier. One reason for the relative success of Birmingham newspapers is probably sports reporting which is high quality. They owe their continued survival to writers like Mat Kendrick.
Thirdly, the ethnic mix of Birmingham may make hyperlocal harder. I don't know the Asian media scene in the city very well but in London it is very vibrant at the local level and makes it very hard for hyperlocals to break into areas with a significant Asian population of which there is a greater number in Birmingham.
Hyperlocal bloggers have been a bit of a disappointment everywhere not just Birmingham and there is little evidence that this kind of approach is anything other than a time-filling exercise for the underemployed. Success in hyperlocal has been achieved almost universally by those who have taken a news or events driven approach. Breaking news in particular seems to be critical for success. One London based hyperlocal told me last week that they received 11,000 visits on a single day following coverage of a serious accident. I'd be willing to bet a tidy sum that this is the highest ever daily traffic for a UK hyperlocal site. Solitary bloggers aren't equipped to respond to every piece of breaking news and therefore never achieve the kind of audience necessary for sustainability.
The other problem in Birmingham has been the success that Trinity Mirror has had in blunting the threat from hyperlocal. They must have found it hard to believe their luck when their nascent competition agreed to give away their content to them for free. Sites that agreed to this ill-conceived deal effectively ended any chance of commercial viability.
I don't necessarily believe that Birmingham isn't right for hyperlocal but it does perhaps face greater challenges than other areas. A start would be to look at what is working elsewhere and adapt a successful approach to local conditions.
October 17, 2012 12:07 pm
"a time-filling exercise for the underemployed"
In one sense, the nakedly commercial, right-wing, money-driven, tunnel visionary, sense this is right.
In another, sod off Kevin and try not judging other people by what you perceive to be their motives. I can judge tens of "hyperlocal" successes based on what the people who did what they wanted to do wanted to do.
October 17, 2012 12:46 pm
'In one sense, the nakedly commercial, right-wing, money-driven, tunnel visionary, sense this is right.'
So in another, the no financial responsibilities, can live off benefits/my trust fund, I don't care if anyone reads what I write, sense it is wrong?
'I can judge tens of "hyperlocal" successes based on what the people who did what they wanted to do wanted to do.'
In the real world doing what you want to do want to do is not a benchmark for success unless personal gratification is all that matters to you. A pre-condition of claiming success for any digitial enterprise is audience, if you don't have that you are wasting your time. The fact that most people who achieve audience also go on to bring in revenue doesn't make them right wing, money grubbers. It makes them competent individuals who have built something sustainable and valuable to their community. If you don't need to earn a living fine but please have a bit more respect for those that do.
October 17, 2012 12:49 pm
But you don't have to earn a living doing _this_. So if you want to do this for any other reason you can too.
In a happy World doing what you want to do is the very definition of success. It's just that we often have to spend a lot of time earning a living. But we can do that and then do some stuff online, for a bit, in any form we like.
Sorry if that annoys you.
October 17, 2012 1:16 pm
Jon, so you get paid for other work you do? You right wing, money driven, tunnel visionary!
October 17, 2012 1:19 pm
I don't attempt to deny anyone else the opportunity to 'dick around with the Internet' as a hobby, or attempt to insult those that do.
October 17, 2012 3:10 pm
"I don't attempt to deny anyone else the opportunity to 'dick around with the Internet' as a hobby, or attempt to insult those that do."
But you do adopt a lofty patrician contempt for those that need their time and effort in this field to pay in order to make a living.
October 17, 2012 12:57 pm
'The fact that most people who achieve audiences go on to bring in revenue' … Sorry, but this is not necessarily the case. We are interested in helping to save old buildings, getting a redesign for Acocks Green Centre (we look to be part way there now, and I think our work has helped) and in protecting and improving the local features of Acocks Green in other ways too. We gauge our success partly on the number of hits we get (We certainly do want an audience and there would be no point in having the blog without one.) but even more on what we help achieve as a result of the pieces that we that we publish on the net. Are we 'underemployed'? Some of us struggle to find the time, but we do what we do because we want to make a difference – and NOT to our bank balances!!
October 17, 2012 1:02 pm
I don't think starting a blog is a wise choice If you trying to find a living.
"In the real world doing what you want to do want to do is not a benchmark for success unless personal gratification is all that matters to you"
And that's exactly the point: many of us started blogging for fun, not because we were trying to start something sustainable. We did stuff – we had some successes – then moved on.
Nothing lasts forever; in these fast-moving times, how long does something have to last before it's deemed 'sustainable'?
October 17, 2012 3:12 pm
No-one has a divine right to make a living from their chosen field. Maybe journalism is a lot more like making music or art these days.
October 17, 2012 5:45 pm
"The other problem in Birmingham has been the success that Trinity Mirror has had in blunting the threat from hyperlocal. They must have found it hard to believe their luck when their nascent competition agreed to give away their content to them for free."
Presumably you're talking about Your Communities? If so you are sorely misguided. Sites that are part of that group have access to some of the most valuable assets that TM have in Brum. Less of the Armchair Analysis please.
October 17, 2012 11:53 am
Interesting read, Marc, as ever – particularly regarding the finances.
Should a blogger wish to pursue a model based on commercial support (although I wonder how many do) I think the challenge will always be a 'reach' that can be guaranteed day-in day-out. It's the same challenge now faced by traditional media companies like mine, as we hit the print/digital crossroads. Until a blogger can guarantee a mass through-the-letterbox-style audience in a locked-down distribution model once mastered by free weeklies, larger advertisers are always going to be harder to win over. Sure, the social media presence is fantastic, but how much further than this does a message go? Perhaps when/if Twitter and Facebook are so ubiquitous and on everyone's living room internet TV in a few years' time, with status updates popping up on your screen as you watch Corrie, there might be a new world of commercial opportunities big and small.
I quite like Simon's reference to the cheesy curry house cinema ads (weren't/aren't they great?). Personally I have no problem with this form of advertising, from a reader or journalism perspective. It wouldn't make me think differently about the site's editorial principles – just that it's in tune with local business and reader habits.
Great debate here. Interesting thoughts.
Sadly I can't make next week's event (it's half-term – family hols) but hope it goes well.
October 17, 2012 11:56 am
The only way I've ever heard propose for a local/hyperlocal/microlocal site to become sustainable is financially is via advertising. When you start down the route, you handle money, accounts, the advertisers themselves as they become clients, and you create a whole other job on top of keeping up with writing on the site. Apart from the time/effort and skills required to do this, it may be that it's actually a deliberate choice by some not to get into marketing or to monetise their blog.
When you talk failure, you have to think of the successes. It could be seen as a success that the hyperloal blogs have kept themselves free from the pressure of taking on advertisers and all that goes with it. They haven't got the overheads of premises, staff, printers, deadlines, etc. People will start their hyperlocal blogs for a myriad of reasons and no one else can decide what they should or shouldn't do with their site. You wouldn't want to stop someone who was thinking about starting their own hyperlocal blog becuase they thought they had to make money from it.
There's a certain freedom in not being reliant on anyone else. Some people don't want to professionalise their services; that's a big expectation to put upon someone. Even if the finacial rewards are not there or apprarent, there are other ways of measuring success; yes, the civic pride, but also it's a way of extending a network and place within the community (that's not to be underestimated for an individual), and in some instances it has led to work opportunities because their blog has been a showcase for their skills etc.
I had all the good intentions in the world when I started my 'micro' local blog which covers just 300 flats. http://www.wakegreenpark.blogspot.com It's gets updated as and when I feel I can. However, what I am pleased about is that it stands as a reference for people considering moving into the area, and I get a couple of emails a month from potential buyers (maybe I could make my money from commission from the estate agents!). And as with any blog, hyperlocal or otherwise, it stands as an archive and reference for the area. A snapshot in time.
I'm looking forward to the event next week.
October 17, 2012 12:07 pm
I may sound a bit angry in my previous comment but to put it in perspective:
The BBC didn't fail when they pulled their version of Local TV
XYZ Production company didn't fail when they didn't get commissioned for a second series of 'Garden relocation embarrassing house doctor in the jungle'.
Papers never fail when they move broadsheet to tabloid, move to weekly or cancel the Sunday edition. (That is the fault of the public for not supporting them).
So why do hyperlocals 'fail'? Surely it is just the same as any or all of the above?
October 17, 2012 12:32 pm
Marc, as already identified, you seem only to be able to see sustainability in terms of commercial viability. We have ads and a business directory on the site – both of which are free to local businesses, charities and organisations.
Our main focus at B31 Voices (which is alive and kicking and very active and many thanks for the mention! *cough*) is finding ways to ensure sustainability by building a site that is run by the community. As Simon G mentioned, it can be very difficult to build up an army of contributors to keep things going when the founders can't. Many of our guest posters have written one or two posts and not bothered again for whatever reason, whether through lack of time or not having anything else to write about.
At the moment, we're building up more and more links with local charities and voluntary organisations, police, schools and others and intend to give them a hand to learn how to post articles themselves. We hope to see B31 Voices grow into a community.
We're hoping that sustainability will eventually come in the form of active community members rather than Tesco adverts.
As for content, Jon B – we do regurgitate a lot of press releases However, this is because people want to read them! Then they're on the site and more likely to see the positive events and activities taking place in the community, alongside campaigns run by local people and the good work done by local charities. In tandem with Twitter and Facebook, they can interact with their community and, hopefully, get back a little pride in it!
October 17, 2012 1:18 pm
I think Sas's very obviously highly successful B31 Voices started a little while after the old Pete Ashton piece on Brum blogs which Marc is linking to. I think this is also part of the point. Some of these blogs on that old post (e.g. two of the Acocks Green ones listed here) are just fine thanks. A few others have gone under. That's called life. But sustainable ones, like Sas's, have also appeared since. And there is this near neighbour of ours (who Ged and I have been chatting with on Twitter) who set up as a blog this month, last post was today – looks promising?
October 17, 2012 12:50 pm
Fascinating. In many regards…
Our NESTA project for the community of Loddon, Norfolk, touches upon many of the concerns and issues raised above.
So how does that 3,000-strong community actually reward one young man in their midst – Ben Olive – for reporting the affairs of their parish council on his http://loddoneye.com ?
There will never be a full-time living for a Ben – or the next Ben as we seek to build a platform a succession of Bens taking up the village reporter role – but can we build a '21st Century Village Correspondent' platform who can be 'rewarded' with £100 per week sustained out of a combination of parish magazine advertisers and national brands seeking local home – ie/eg East of England Co-op (Loddon)?
That's our challenge; and in the absence of a Local 'TV' station for vaste swathes of the UK, can we not build a parish 'TV' station broadcast off the church tower of Holy Trinity, Loddon…
Our intent is not to be nakedly commercial, but to be sustainable; to build a platform that as Ben wearies or moves on, can then be handed on to another young person in that community as a 'showcase' for their own journalistic hopes and ambitions.
As well as empowering the 52 advertisers in the parish magazine that have a web presence to find a new, online home around a rural wifi portal play; one that is, therefore, obvious and available to every visitor to that community as they seek connectivity just as I would in Starbucks (Selly Oak).
I've talked before of 'not-for-loss' models of local journalism; one up ambition-wise from the ease with which people talk of 'not-for-profits'.
Why shouldn't the Ben Olives of this world be rewarded for eight hours a month of their time and resource?
And then we just create a network of Bens; build a new, local media landscape for the UK from the bottom up…
IMHO, of course.
best etc
October 17, 2012 12:58 pm
By way of a little more background on #21VC… this was in BetaRocket yesterday, the website for tech start-ups in the North-East.
A pleasant change from me blathering on, hopefully.
October 17, 2012 1:08 pm
By way of further explanation re #21VC.
BetaRocket this week: http://www.betarocket.co.uk/2012/10/15/local-journalism-in-a-mobile-age/
best etc
October 17, 2012 1:24 pm
I really don't think of us had any intention of "holding anyone" to account in developing locally relevant sites and certainly didn't see their production as any reaction to a failure of the mainstream press.
The first local site we put together, in 1999, had one purpose, we could finally make and see pictures of things we knew and recognised on the Internet. That might sound trite now but the novelty at that point was something worth pursuing. I'd say that many of us looked on with some bewilderment when the mainstream media popped up years later and coined the term "hyperlocal", I'm still not convinced it means anything.
My glib explanation of my motives back then might sound ridiculous now but this is how things have changed and continue to change. This also illustrates the vacuous nature of the argument that sites need to be sustainable. It's the Internet, for an outlay of £5 you can have a site up and running in less than hour. If it doesn't work, then give up and make another one. It isn't like the mainstream media where there is an investment in the means of production.
This is why such local web presence needs to be inherently flexible and adapt over time. Much of the work of local sites now happens through other media such as Facebook, this isn't because local sites have failed to adapt to Facebook, it's just more convenient. Ten years ago we couldn't conceive of Facebook, I can't conceive of what might replace it in another ten years time.
One thing I do hope is that the current models don't prove to be so sustainable that people can't be bothered to try new ways of talking to each other in the future.
October 17, 2012 1:57 pm
Interesting article. There is certainly still hope for hyperlocal media. NESTA project is a great way of supporting the cause. As a strategic partner the Community Organisers programme is looking forward to seeing it develop. They produced a brilliant and telling report on the issue in case you missed it
October 17, 2012 2:06 pm
Fascinating stuff. Media in flux dot com. I do agree with one thing – there is a democratic defecit in Bham. I look forward to next week.
Pauline Geoghegan twitter @politicsinbrum
October 17, 2012 3:18 pm
One way of looking through this bit of the WSOGMM (http://www.saunalahti.fi/huuhilo/dna5.htm):
Taken as a whole, and for an area defined by someone else, some people who didn't set out to or claim they were doing a thing failed to do so in a way that fits into one definition of success.
Lots of stuff does and did happen in lots of ways, some where people wanted money for doing it some where people wanted something else.
I think the world itself has moved on. And, like Marc, I don't think there is a huge amount of influence from the 'hyperlocal scene' in whatever regional media is—and that's because in a capitalist society most influence flows from money. And there just isn't a huge amount of that here.
October 17, 2012 7:40 pm
Hi Marc
Late to the debate and other people have said what I'd have said more eloquently than I would have done. I must admit that reading that people who have put a lot of time, energy and passion into creating something for and around communities they love have somehow 'failed to deliver' because they didn't implement a business model to it is a bit galling, but that seems to be the point – it's kick-started quite a discussion.
What I feel I must point out is that digbeth.org is no longer my site – it's in the hands of Pamela Pinski and has been since the inevitable change in my life circumstances precipitated a move to Cardiff in December last year. I wrote about it here: http://talkaboutlocal.org.uk/hyperlocal-exit-strategy/.
Pamela took on digbeth.org because it works for her and Digbeth Residents' Association, of which she is secretary, and I suppose she will carry on with it until it doesn't, at which point she can either hand it onto someone else it might work for or let it go. Like me, Pamela has a day-job that keeps her busy and has neither the time nor the inclination to take a 'ruthlessly commercial approach' to the website, nor would I want her to feel under pressure to do so.
Thanks, Nicky.
October 24, 2012 8:18 pm
Some really interesting point and I'm sure the bee will land firmly in my bonnet at the Rethink Regional debate tomorrow, but some of the points I wanted to make are probably summed up on a post I wrote not so long back about how we measure success:


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text: Testimony on Comparative Effectiveness Research Larry A. GreenOn April 3, 2009, public testimony on comparative effectiveness research was given at a meeting of the National Advisory Council for Healthcare Research and Quality. The testimony represents the views of the presenter and not necessarily those of the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ) or the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Delivered Via Electronic MailTest, in practical, real-world trials, different systematic ways of delivering integrated health care for people with (1) emotional and behavioral problems (i.e. people with mental health and substance use problems) and (2) unhealthy behaviors. This work is well suited for PBRNs and would accelerate evidence based practice by developing practice based evidence, moving beyond testing one pill vs another, or one device vs another. This research matters to approximately 32 million people each year (in terms of the burden of illness associated with important "mental health" problems and a majority of the population (adults, adolescents, children) now compromised because of unhealthy behaviors, specifically tobacco use, physical inactivity, unhealthy diet, and risky use of alcohol.Larry A. Green, M.D. Current as of April 2009 Internet Citation: Testimony on Comparative Effectiveness Research: Larry A. Green. April 2009. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, Rockville, MD. http://www.ahrq.gov/news/newsroom/speech/lgreen.html


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Rescue medications are a type of medication used by people with asthma to relieve asthma symptoms (such as wheezing, coughing, and shortness of breath) or to treat an asthma flare-up. They're also known as quick-relief or fast-acting medications because they act quickly to stop symptoms, but the effects aren't long lasting. Most are inhaled and work by relaxing the muscle around the airways (the tubes that carry air into and out of the lungs), making the airways wider and allowing breathing to become easier within minutes. They don't treat the underlying inflammation of the airways - this can require daily treatment with other types of medications called controller medications. Some people with asthma rely only on rescue medications; others use rescue medications together with controller medications to keep their asthma in check overall.
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Bag's Take-Away:
Why is Wonderboy looking down on this Bloomberg cover? Maybe looking for the share price of Facebook? It fell 13% yesterday.
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Topping LIFE.com's 2011 Best Photo Blogs — also follow us on Twitter and Facebook.
Bag's Take-Away:"Uber-Power and Ego" Pictures of the Week, #2 — Mark Zuckerberg. (Yep, at core of the matrix is Mark's little headshot.)
(photo: Kimihiro Hoshino/AFP/Getty Images caption: Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg delivers a keynote during the Facebook f8 Developer Conference at the San Francisco Design Center in San Francisco on September 22, 2011 in California.)
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Of all the newswire images, this is the one that stands out, that really gives a sense both of the horrific scale — 90+ dead, 5 bodies in this image alone — and of how sudden and unexpected the attack must have been on the island of Utoya. The dead lie where they were methodically killed one after the other, perhaps in desperate flight, or even before, when the assailant in police uniform had their initial trust.
The white sheets covering the corpses also identify the time specifically as after the gunman was arrested, but before they could be removed. It is a universal ritual to confer dignity to the dead by covering them, and in cases where there are many, like here, it also symbolizes equality and anonymity in suffering.
How many times have we seen these scenes from Iraq, Afghanistan, even Dover Air Force Base? How many times have I photographed them? Perhaps it is my New Yorker's fantasy of the paradise of socialist Scandinavia in our American moment of hapless conservatism, but the news of this attack and this attendant image shocked me in a way that I thought could no longer happen.
If the initial reporting is confirmed, that Anders Behring Breivik targeted the Labor Party youth camp on Utoya precisely for political reasons — along with massacre that wounded Representative Gabrielle Giffords in Arizona earlier this year — then the chickens really are coming home to roost.
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- Viviane Chevallier
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If there is so much aid in developing countries, why poverty is increasing in these regions and the industrialized world?
I'm doing a question for my project. Not only that poverty is increasing in the developing world for the worse, it is increasing in the industrialized world, especially the United States.
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Dec 28 2012: The amount of Aid given compared to say, the amount money spent on "defense" is actually very very small. Aid does not always reach the people it is supposed to aid due to corruption. Sometimes it is used to solve short terms problems instead of investing in long term solutions. In a broader sense, perhaps because the population of the world keeps increasing, the increased demand for food and other essentials inflates prices. Has aid money increased in line with this? Also, Believe it or not, the last 60 years (at least in European history) has been one of the most peaceful and prosperous periods ever, perhaps the bubble eventually bursts? Don't forget the capitalist economic system can cause the gap between rich and poor to increase or decrease, supposedly this happens in cycles. It's increasing at the moment for sure. Maybe that's temporary, maybe it's not. Just some thoughts.... you'll have to find the evidence yourself.
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Help us to test a new virtual reality training device for neck pain.
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Choosing a Career in Marine Sciences
Oceanology, another term that is sometimes used, refers to the technology of doing things in, on, around or under the oceans. In North America the term ocean engineering is in general use. The mapping or charting of the oceans is referred to as Hydrography.
Physical Oceanography
Physical oceanography includes such things as the formation of waves, salinity/density gradients, temperature differences and currents. Air/sea energy interchanges and related ocean-weather phenomena such as global climate change, El Nino, hurricanes and typhoons are special topics of ocean research that require a knowledge of both marine and atmospheric sciences.
Chemical Oceanography
Chemical oceanography deals with the origins and fate of chemical constituents of ocean waters and the chemical reactions that take place in the ocean environment. The effects of contaminants, organic or inorganic and their distribution patterns, are major concerns of marine chemists. Chemical tracers, atmosphere/ocean gas exchanges are used to determine the movement and distribution of deep ocean waters and the cycling or uptake of gases such as carbon dioxide.
Geological Oceanography
Geological oceanography covers the study of the formation of ocean basins, mountain ranges, trenches, undersea volcanoes and how sediments are transported, uplifted and distributed into islands and continents. Findings arising from tectonic plate theories have led to new explanations of continental drift, movements of plates, uplift and mountain building. The discovery of hydrothermal vents has led to many new mineral and biological discoveries in the ocean. Much of the applied geological and geophysical research and surveys is directed to the location of offshore oil, gas and mineral deposits.
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Biological oceanography is the
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of animals, including how and why they communicate with each other.
Considerations in Choosing a Career in Marine SciencesAt present a career in the marine sciences involves in one way or another a commitment to some form of research. Research can be taken as the quest for previously unrecorded knowledge by asking questions and recording the answers in some permanent form.
Basic research is the search for knowledge without any direct thought of what use is it? Basic research is at the foundation of all sciences, all medicine, and all technology. With respect to the world's oceans, only a small fraction of what is there is known today. Basic research is mostly conducted in universities, museums and government institutions, and to a lesser extent in private and industrial laboratories. The results of basic research are traditionally made available, free of charge to all, through publication in scientific journals. Basic research is supported financially almost entirely by governments, and in some instances by private philanthropy.
Research positions are scarce, because basic research is relatively poorly funded. To succeed in this field of activity, the highest academic degrees and training (doctoral and post-doctoral studies) are usually required.
Applied Research is the search for specific answers to questions which are of direct interest or benefit to industry, government or business. It is usually carried out or contracted out by the organization most concerned with the problem. The results may or may not be published in the open literature depending in part on whether the product or process is patentable. Applied research is generally well-funded and, as a consequence, more positions are available with qualifications ranging from the very highest for senior positions to those that require more modest scientific and technical skills.
Nature of the Work
Being an oceanographer means being interested in the sea, and it means going to sea, sometimes for long periods of time. They must also work ashore, analyzing data and publishing work so others can benefit. Oceanographic research involves a wide variety of activities ranging from purely theoretical work to internationally-coordinated multi-ship surveys involving the design of instrument arrays. Oceanographers do extensive work in the laboratory, including mathematical modelling of ocean processes, instrument design, testing, calibration and data analysis. In addition to making measurements from ships at the surface and from instruments mounted below the surface, data are obtained by remote sensing from aircraft and satellites, oceanography from space is a reality.
A career in marine sciences requires good health and physical stamina to cope with the rigours of field work at sea. For those whose careers may require shipboard research, one must accept long stretches of time aboard ship and perhaps having to cope with seasickness. The rewards, however, are many in experiencing and seeing strange sights and visiting out-of-the-way places anywhere in the world.
Employment Opportunities
Professional employment in the marine sciences is limited and the competition is high. Industry offers some positions for those with bachelor's degrees in science or engineering. A student is well-advised to obtain the best possible undergraduate (scientific or engineering) degree and then apply this training to marine work. A student intent on pursuing a career in a marine technical field should attempt to obtain a bachelor's degree with emphasis on the marine sciences.
The principal employer of marine scientists in Canada is the federal government, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, for physical, chemical and biological oceanographers, and the Department of Natural Resources for marine geologists and geophysicists. Other governments and departments employ oceanographers as well as the universities for teaching and research. Fisheries research requires a knowledge of almost all aspects of oceanography for stock assessment and modelling the population dynamics of fish populations. The rapid expansion of the aquaculture industry has led to the requirement for many specialists including those with a knowledge of fish nutrition and disease control.
Private sector employment depends to a large extent on contractual arrangements particularly for environmental studies, assessments and surveys. Some of the major mineral resource companies employ their own marine specialists while others prefer to engage specialists. Canadian expertise in this field is well-recognized internationally and many Canadians and Canadian companies are actively engaged in various parts of the world; many of whom are employed by or on assignment through the United Nations Organization.
Despite the downturn in government services and employment, students interested in ocean sciences should view the future with a fair degree of optimism. A university degree in one of the ocean sciences combined with courses in environmental sciences, resource management, law or computer science, opens the door to a number of careers, some within the government, UN Agencies or industry. Since many pollutants, natural or anthropogenic, find their way into the ocean, it has become a focus of attention of environmentalists around the world. The need for professionals who understand how the ocean is affected by the ever-increasing developments of urbanization and industrialization along with the potential threats of marine accidents continues to grow.
Educational RequirementsHigh School
The first step for a student considering a career in marine sciences is to choose relevant science courses, from the physical, chemical, biological or earth sciences. Mathematics and training on and the use of computers must be regarded as an essential element of any high school science program. Students should also begin their development of basic skills in written and spoken English and/or French.
University Undergraduate
Consideration might be given to elective courses in other science fields; they may well have a bearing on specialization upon graduation or selection of a graduate school. It is not necessary for the student to take marine science courses. Universities offering postgraduate training in marine sciences are looking for candidates with majors or honours in any science field. If it is possible to participate in marine-oriented field courses it would be beneficial. Universities associated with either the Huntsman or Bamfield Marine Laboratories offer this experience even if they offer no other marine science courses.
University Graduate Studies
A master's program can usually be completed in one to two years after the bachelor's degree. The requirement for admission to this program is a strong undergraduate degree in the sciences. Courses at the graduate level will be considerably more advanced than at the undergraduate level; some but not all will be slanted towards the specialities and research interests of the professors on staff. However, in most universities students will be encouraged to explore different options and broaden their training.
UniversitiesMany Canadian universities offer undergraduate courses in marine sciences but only those offering substantive courses at the postgraduate level are listed below:
Alberta, University of
Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2E3
The program offers Bachelor of Science, Master of Science and Doctor of Philosophy degrees. Areas of research in marine sciences include abyssal flows, numerical model development, paleoclimate modelling, the role of the ocean in climate, theoretical studies on waves in the atmosphere and ocean as well as studies on the three oceans that surround Canada (Arctic, Atlantic and Pacific).
Tel: 403-492-6076
Homepage: http://easweb.eas.ualberta.ca/page/research/?k=title&v=Atmospheric+Sciences+and+Oceanography
British Columbia, University of
Graduate education and research in oceanography have been carried out at the University of British Columbia since 1949, the longest among Canadian universities. Research studies are conducted in biological, chemical, geological and physical oceanography and atmospheric science with much emphasis on interdisciplinary studies. Combined honours oceanography B.Sc. degrees are offered in the following disciplines: biology, chemistry, geology, geophysics and physics. Since 1988 the Department of Oceanography and the Department of Geography have jointly offered a program in atmospheric science.
The university is a member of the Bamfield Marine Station, Bamfield, B.C.
Tel: 604-822-3278
Homepage: http://www.ocgy.ubc.ca/
Dalhousie UniversityHalifax, Nova Scotia
Department of Oceanography
Dalhousie University offers undergraduate courses in the Marine Sciences. Graduate degrees in Marine Sciences are offered by the Departments of Biology and Oceanography. Research facilities for graduate work are excellent, and active research studies are being undertaken in the Departments of Biology, Geology and Oceanography. Special facilities include an Aquatron for biological research.
Dalhousie is a member of the Huntsman Marine Laboratory, St. Andrews, N.B.
Homepage: http://oceanography.dal.ca/index.html
Guelph, University ofGuelph, Ontario N1G 2W1
The University of Guelph offers a number of undergraduate and graduate courses in marine and freshwater biology. There is a widespread interest in Marine Biology through an active group of research scientists.
Guelph is a member of the Huntsman Marine Laboratory.
Homepage: http://www.uoguelph.ca/ib/undergrad/fieldcourses_marine.shtml
McGill University805 Sherbrooke St. W.
Montreal, Quebec H3A 2K6
Department of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences
Both undergraduate and graduate courses are offered in essentially all fields of marine sciences. McGill is well-recognized for its teaching and research in arctic, temperate and tropical regions.
It is associated with the Huntsman Marine Laboratory and Centre océanographique de Rimouski, Québec. The Belairs Research Institute in the Barbados, West Indies, is a research field station of McGill University which is used for tropical marine sciences research.
Tel: 514-398-3764
Homepage: http://zephyr.meteo.mcgill.ca
Memorial University of NewfoundlandElizabeth Avenue
St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7
Many undergraduate and graduate courses in the Marine Sciences are offered. Graduate research studies in Marine Sciences are carried out at the university and at the Marine Sciences Research Laboratory at Logie Bay which has a superb diving facility and excellent sea water laboratories for holding marine life. The Engineering Department offers many graduate courses leading to degrees in Ocean Engineering.
URL: http://www.cmos.ca/carocean.html


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Anti-matter Creation Questions/ Discussion
by Matt-er
Tags: antimatter, creation, discussion, questions or
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Jan10-14, 03:33 PM
Hello everyone!
I would first like to say that I am not exactly unfamiliar with these forums; I'm one of those people who is like a... "long -time thread watcher, first time poster." So yes, this is my first post. I have used these forums as a sort of reference library, looking up cool facts when I wanted to, and occasionally if I had questions of my own, I would usually find someone asking a similar question, with answers attached on the posts following. But this time, it's different (sounds like a movie, haha)... (also I hope this is the right section; I was unsure if maybe this should go in the quantum section. Thanks.)
Recently, I have been doing some research on antimatter, specifically about baryon-number violation (B + L), and no matter (no pun intended) where I looked, I only got answers that would confuse me further. So, I was hoping to clear up some general questions and most-likely some misconceptions I might have regarding antimatter as well as clarify exactly what's going on in different circumstances of antimatter creation. I would also like to discuss some of these questions in more detail, if and once they are answered, and perhaps turn this thread into a discussion (I hope that's not against the rules, as a discussion sometimes tends to go off-topic). Okay. Wow, that's a mouthful... anyway, so without further ado, here are my questions:
-1. Does antimatter and matter have to be both "free-floating" in order to annihilate? More specifically, if we shoot a bunch (say 30) of anti-protons into a nucleus of normal matter which contains a certain amount of protons (say 45 protons in the nucleus), will annihilation happen, and will there be 15 protons in the nucleus left? (after annihilation occurs; leave beta decay out of this specific question) OR is there something that prevents annihilation from happening inside of a nucleus? I think I know the answer, but I just want to be sure....
-2. I have read that the only way that antimatter can convert into normal matter (or vice-versa) is only under a specific circumstance. However, this circumstance (which deals with a Sphaleron) is extremely rare and is technically still theoretical as it falls under one of the current UToE (unified theory of everything). I have a general question about this circumstance later, but here's my current question:
-3. Stemming off from #2, the creation of an anti-leptons due to beta-decay, suggests that it might be possible to transform baryons into anti-leptons or anti-baryons into leptons, which is a theoretical concept of the GUT. Let's assume that it is the case that the GUT is true. Okay, but even in that case, the transformation of antimatter to matter (or vice-versa) only happens under the condition of (this is how I understand it) a saddle point of SU(2), which describes the motion of particles in Euclidean space time. And the chances of this Sphaleron appearing is virtually zero.However, the temperatures of the early universe would have caused the rate of Sphaleron occurrence to be much more often due to (from what I have read) a different quantum effect. So, question is: What is this quantum effect that at very high temperatures allows the larger rate of creation of Sphalerons to occur? And what kind of high temperatures are we referring to (number-wise)?
-4. I'll be honest, I'm beyond confused with anything dealing with saddle points and SU(2) or SU(anything), haha. I don't know if I should start a new thread about this, but honestly, I would be grateful if anyone could explain exactly what this means and how one comes to such a conclusion of the possibility of a Sphaleron. To me, it looks like a mathematical description using matrices to describe particle movement and behavior, but how and in what way, I'm not exactly sure. Truth is, I'm not looking to get a semester- college course worth answer, just anything you can do to shed some light on this subject would be useful. Thanks.__________________
Okay. Sorry for dumping all that on you guys. I guess I've been so confused and filled with so many questions, that I just wanted to know immediately. I know it doesn't work that way, so please just do your best to answer any of these questions; you don't have to answer all of them- even a little piece of the puzzle is a big help. Who knows, maybe I'm not the only one with these questions, maybe others like me will benefit from this thread, so again, take your time and answer/ discuss away.
All questions/ comments/ critiques/ corrections are all welcome! But, please no flaming, name calling, other bad behavior. And truth is, I'm still in college; I haven't taken enough physics/ math courses to not be called "stupid," so go easy on me.
Thank you all; Awaiting your responses,
- Matt-er
Jan10-14, 05:10 PM
PF Gold
1. Depending on the accuracy of the shooting, say you got all the protons, you could easily cause other types of creations/decays to take place. All you know for sure is that the left over particles plus their kinetic energy has to add up to the total energy you started with.
2/3. Beta decay, where a quark in a neutron (down-quark through a W boson), changes into an up-quark, making the neutron a proton, and off flies an electron and an anti-neutrino. This process is reversible in the sense that an electron with enough energy can cause an up to down-quark change, effectively turning a proton into a neutron.
4. There are a series of great lectures where you learn a great deal about using matrices as a mathematical description to describe particle movement and behavior (specifically polarization of photons and electrons) at
Jan10-14, 06:14 PM
1. Annihilations release a lot of energy - I guess the first annihilation(s) would rip apart your nucleus long before the remaining antiprotons arrived. Yes, annihilations do happen in nuclei - and they look nearly the same as with free-floating particles.
2. Sphalerons are hypothetical objects, but within the Standard Model - no new unified theories are necessary. They have nothing to do with beta decay, independent of the direction.
Inverse beta decay is like the regular beta decay, just happening in the other direction.
Note that beta decays conserve both baryon and lepton numbers separately.
Jan11-14, 08:07 AM
Sci Advisor
Anti-matter Creation Questions/ Discussion
But there is no underlying process that "explains" it. And yes, in QFT it does happen instantaneously and at a single point. [Should point out that beta decay itself is actually a two-step process, in which a W meson is produced as an intermediate stage, which then decays.]
Where do the new particles come from? Particles are not fundamental either. After all, it is called Quantum FIELD Theory, and particles are just excitations of the fields. There is one electron field, for example, that exists always and everywhere. Normally it is in the vacuum state, with no particles (electrons and positrons) present. When an interaction "creates an electron", what it does is excite the field (that already existed) to a one-particle state.
Jan12-14, 08:31 PM
Hello all! Thank you for replying.
It means a lot that someone takes the time to answer back or post/ reply, and I will do my best to "carry on the conversation." However, some of the answers that you have provided were not the ones I was looking for (mostly for #1); And, I think it has to do with the way my questions were formulated. Usually I like to add detail to my questions, but sometimes my lack of grammar (English is not my first language) mutates them into a giant mess. My apologies. Let me try to rephrase, then attend to the rest of your replies. Thanks.
Regarding the first question- it was really a simple question of: Will sub-atomic particles annihilate if they are part of a nucleus? Ie: Can the annihilation of antiprotons (which are free-floating and Not part of a nucleus) and protons occur if the protons are part of a nucleus? (again; I think yes, but I might be unaware of some kind of effect that prevents this; that's all I want to know for this question).
Now on to your replies:
Also I never suggested that a new unified ToE should be needed: I was merely saying that the idea of B+L violation was Part of a Current ToE.
Thanks again all; looking forward to some more replies,
- Matt-er
Jan13-14, 02:17 PM
Jan14-14, 04:10 PM
@mfb: Yes, you did answer it. My fault for reading too quickly. My apologies. Thank you for your answer. But, now I have some more questions ^^ (and of course, anyone can answer them- thanks again):
Also I found the article (the one regarding the Sphaleron) again, as promised. And, you seem to be right, mfb, in the sense that higher temperatures mean simply "that high-energetic processes are more likely to occur." According to page 1, it says:
From my understanding, the sphaleron occurs at a saddle point, specifically at a point that is exactly in between two different vacuums of Euclidean Space-time. And it only occurs when the temperature is insanely hot. So I have a few questions:
1. Is my very brief understanding correct? (Even if it is, I would like to learn more information about this whole event; any extra information would be great. Thanks).
2. When it refers to the barrier, I assume it talks about the theoretical barrier that allows matter to convert to antimatter... is this correct or is it referring to something else?
3. When it says: "the thermal distribution favors states with energy E >> V0 and the particle can move over the barrier classically," What is the V0 represent (I assume velocity)? What does the W^2 in the picture represent? and also how does a particle move over the barrier "classically"?
4. What is the "Boltzmann distribution and proportional to exp( -f3Vo)" that the article refers to?
Thanks again in advance; looking forward to some more replies,
- Matt-er
Jan14-14, 05:22 PM
I'll leave the sphaleron questions for theoreticians.
Jan18-14, 04:05 PM
Do you think there would be some way to avoid the splitting of the nucleon after a reaction like that? Honestly, I did not think it would release that much energy.. I mean that is insanity, haha.
The reason I ask is that I had an idea a while ago that balanced on the idea that we could fire one antiparticle at a time at a nucleus, then after the annihilation, the nucleus (now without one of its sub-atomic particles) would become unstable, undergo beta decay (releasing energy), become stable, and then the process would repeat until theoretically the nucleus basically disappears (in a sense, this would provide tons and tons of "free" energy).
However, if as you point out, only one reaction has the potential to destroy the entire structure of the nucleus, then this idea is dead in the water. Unless of course, there is a way to prevent the split- ie: harnessing the force of the annihilation somehow, etc, which is what/ why I am asking.
Jan18-14, 08:36 PM
I don't know this sphaleron model, so I'll leave your question 1 for someone else.
The standard picture in physics is this: suppose you have a rolling ball in a landscape of valleys and hills (i.e. regions of low and high potentials, respectively). If it has a high enough kinetic energy it can climb out of a valley and pass over the hilltop. If it doesn't, it is bound to stay in the same valley. In the quantum case, particles can "cheat" and tunnel through the hill even though they haven't got enough energy to reach the top.
The ω's mainly seem to be used to show how the potential is shaped. I.e. that the minima and the maximum are shaped as parabolas, opening upwards and downwards, respectively.
Jan19-14, 08:57 AM
The binding energy of nucleons in a nucleus is on the order of several MeV. An annihilation reaction of a proton-antiproton pair releases twice the rest mass (2 * 938.3 MeV = 1876 MeV), although some of that energy is in the form pions.
An interaction of an anti-proton with a nucleus may induce fission or spallation, depending on the nucleus, and how deep into the nucleus the anti-proton penertates before annihilation.
Clearly, some nuclei do not require much energy to fission. It is sufficient for U-235 or Pu-239 to absorb a thermal neutron (E ~ .024 eV) to fission. Others require neutrons in the MeV range.
One may wish to review - Handbook of Spallation Research
One may also be interested in - Antiprotons from spallation of cosmic rays on interstellar matter
Jan19-14, 01:05 PM
Realistic sources of antimatter need orders of magnitude more energy than the physical minimum, so this is completely unrealistic.
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The governor said many of the state's sales tax exemptions have been around since the 1960s and are outdated.
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Bob Evans Announces Year-End Earnings Release and Conference Call Details
COLUMBUS, Ohio, May 21, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Bob Evans Farms, Inc. (NASDAQ: BOBE) today announced it will release its year-end earnings after 4 p.m. (ET) on Tuesday, June 4, 2013, and will hold its year-end conference call at 10 a.m. (ET) on Wednesday, June 5, 2013. The dial-in number is (800) 690-3108, access code 74610773. A replay will be available at (800) 585-8367, access code 74610773.
To access the simultaneous webcast, go to www.bobevans.com/ir. The archived webcast will also be available on the Web site.
About Bob Evans Farms, Inc.
Bob Evans Farms, Inc. owns and operates full-service restaurants under the Bob Evans Restaurants and Mimi's Cafe brand names. At the end of the third fiscal quarter (January 25, 2013), Bob Evans Restaurants owned and operated 565 family restaurants in 19 states, primarily in the Midwest, mid-Atlantic and Southeast regions of the United States, while Mimi's Cafe owned and operated 145 casual restaurants located in 24 states, primarily in California and other western states. Bob Evans Farms, Inc., through its BEF Foods segment, is also a leading producer and distributor of refrigerated side dishes, pork sausage and a variety of complementary convenience food items under the Bob Evans and Owens brand names. Note that effective on February 16, 2013, Mimi's Cafe is no longer owned by Bob Evans Farms, Inc. For more information about Bob Evans Farms, Inc., visit www.bobevans.com.
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Bateman, McCarthy Let Down by Script in Identity Thief
- Friday, February 08, 2013
DVD Release Date: June 4, 2013
Theatrical Release Date: February 8, 2013
Rating: R for sexual content and language
Genre: Comedy
Run Time: 111 min.
Director: Seth Gordon
Cast: Jason Bateman, Melissa McCarthy, Robert Patrick, Amanda Peet, Morris Chestnut, Genesis Rodriguez, Jon Cho, Eric Stonestreet
Sandy Patterson (Jason Bateman) is an accountant pulling down $50,000 a year to support his wife (Amanda Peet, Gulliver's Travels) and growing family. When a disenchanted co-worker (John Cho, Star Trek) lures him to a start-up by offering him an annual salary of $250,000, Sandy jumps, delighted at what the extra income will mean for his family's financial security.
Meanwhile, Diana (Melissa McCarthy) has her own ideas about Sandy's finances. Running a scam, she steals his identity and starts spending wildly. Word gets back to Sandy that he's been victimized, but with Diana in Florida and Sandy in Colorado, the police officer in charge of the investigation in Colorado says it'll be months before the perpetrator can be brought to justice.
That won't do for Sandy, whose reputation has been besmirched to the point where he's in danger of losing his higher-paying new job. His solution? Against the advice of everyone, Sandy heads to Florida determined to bring Diana back to Colorado, where she can be promptly arrested, thereby restoring Sandy's standing with his employer.
Bateman has put together a career of straight-man comedy roles that have made him one of the most reliable comic actors in the business. He may be best known as Michael Bluth, the calm center of the eccentric family that populates Ron Howard's TV show Arrested Development, which is now widely considered a modern classic, thanks to the show's second life on home video.
But if TV is what helped launch Bateman (as a child, he was also one of the stars of the sitcom Silver Spoons), cinema has been a mainstay for him as an adult. He turned in strong supporting performances in Juno and State of Play, but his efforts to establish himself as a leading man in such films as Extract and The Switch never quite clicked with audiences. Could it be that Bateman's on-screen persona is better suited for small-dose comic relief of supporting characters rather than the full load required of a main character? Identity Thief does no favors for Bateman or his prospects as a leading man.
As for co-star McCarthy, whose breakout performance came in Bridesmaids, Identity Thief uses her to aim for lowbrow laughs but can't even manage that. After chugging along with minimal humor, the film completely runs out of laughing gas before turning into a dreadfully misguided attempt at Diana's personal reformation and redemption. While such transformation is laudable in most stories, here it feels false.
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