text:
Surreal Gaza
Jenin Redux
Meanwhile, we suffer through the Jenin reinvention of the rules of war: (1) proportionality: Hamas is allowed to keep trying to kill as many Jews as it can to "balance" those lost to far more lethal Israeli countermeasures. Rule I. War is a tit-for-tat game, where fairness is defined as killing no more than you lose.
(2) Civilians and warriors: there is no such difference. Hamas's terrorists who shoot rockets against Israeli families burrow into their own civilian infrastructure. They are tragic innocents to the world when they are killed and heroes to their own if can they kill innocents Jews through their barrages. Rule II. The age of uniforms and battle lines is over, replaced by the civilian shield as the best mechanism of defense against Western mastery of traditional arms.
(3) War that is lost on the battlefield can be won through the international media. The Palestinians have counted on six truths in the international arena (a. the world remains largely anti-Semitic; b. the world appreciates the strategic calculus that Arabs are numerous with oil; and Israel is tiny without it; c. Westerners fear Islamic terrorists, not the IDF; d. The West is prone to self-loathing, and romanticizes any who best capture the mantel of victimhood; the Palestinians have brilliantly reinvented themselves by claiming a status akin to women, gays, Hispanics, and blacks—fellow victims of rich while male Westerners; e. Any culture abroad whose hospitals Westerners would not like to be operated in are idealized; any who emulate Western technological supremacy are shunned. Rule III: Just copy any group that sets up shop on an American campus free speech area, and the resulting sympathy is worth a division.
Incremental Victory
The Hamas way of thinking is that it has constantly redefined losses to such an extent that 300+ killed are now dubbed a "Holocaust." Meanwhile the frequency and range of its rocketry are expanded and embedded into the "normalcy" of the Middle East. Hamas seeks to establish the principle that it can daily wear away the psyche of Israelis while carefully constraining Israeli responses. What a Westerner would call an Israeli "victory" (e.g., terrible destruction of Hamas infrastructure with far greater casualties inflicted than suffered), Hamas and others would call "progress" in a century-long war (e.g., the world now accepts that showering Israeli with rockets is not an act of war, and not deserving of serious retaliation).
A final note: some of the most vicious anti-Israeli sentiment comes from Europe, especially countries like Spain and Greece. Yet I remember Morocco and Spain nearly shooting at each other in 2002 in a dispute over an uninhabited rock in the Mediterranean, and Greece goes ballistic every time Turkey customarily overflies Aegean airspace. Israel alone is not supposed to respond to rocket barrages; our conclusions can only be that the world deems it an illegitimate state worthy of destruction, and will allow its enemies to keep trying until they succeed (Why else would a British television station invite Ahmadinejad to answer the Queen's Christmas address—a thug who promised the destruction of Israel, is seeking the means to do it, and whose terrorists recently kidnapped British sailors?)
Meanwhile we await "Gaza, Gaza"—the anguished documentary movie as hundreds of filmakers have no doubt already descended to offer us by spring a must see movie on every American university campus.
125 Comments, 125 Threads
1. Alex
Professor Hanson:
That is indeed a brilliant summary of the current situation, and I salute you. However, accepting all that you wrote here, what is Israel to do? It would seem the appropriate action would be to deny these rules of the game and treat Hamas as the Russians treated Chechneya that is, forget about being civilized and smash Hamas with as much force as necessary and regardless of civilian casualties among the Palestinian people.
I see no other solution and what, after all, does Israel have to lose? It's not as if Muslims and the Western Left can hate Jews more than they already do.December 31, 2008 - 11:57 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
2. goffredo vantaggi
What should Israel do? Israel should just continue to go its way. It is a democracy. The people of Israel feel their lives, the lives of their children and nephews and their country are threatened every day and the issue of how when and where to address this problem should continue to be decided by democratically elected governments. Isreal needs good friends and the truely free world needs Israel. The biggest mistake the palistian people did was to mock democracy and let Hamas take power. They should NOW finally rid themselves of Hamas. "They can do it!"January 1, 2009 - 4:03 am Link to this Comment | Reply
3. jbird
Thanks VDH,
I believe in your analysis. The Monte Carlo example is so true. I just do not understand these people. Oh, by the way as we focus on Gaza and the number of pals that are dead, I saw on the ticker tape last night that over 400 people in Congo were killed by rebels. Where's the out-cry?January 1, 2009 - 9:09 am Link to this Comment | Reply
4. TheBigHenry
I agree with Alex. Instead of trying to thread the needle of minimum collateral damage to civilians (which doesn't impress anyone, least of all the Palestinians), Israel should revert to an eye for an eye. Better yet, 10 eyes for 1 eye. If a homicide bomber kills a bus-full of Israelis, the IDF should blow up 10 bus-fulls of Palestinians. If they don't have 10 buses, blow up 10 houses. Then the liberal fascists can haggle over whether or not 10 for 1 is too much. Israel can split the difference and make it 5 for 1.January 1, 2009 - 9:23 am Link to this Comment | Reply
Indeed, the double standards surrounding the entire issue are so well-entrenched that one can only conclude that the vast majority of the human race is secretly willing to write off Israel completely, in the misbegotten notion that once its destruction is complete, those poor, downtrodden Arabs will finally have what they want, and will then leave the rest of us alone.
I have been struggling mightily trying to come up with some other explanation for all this madness, but have gotten nowhere – could you, professor, give me any more optimistic a conclusion, or does anyone else wish to have a go at it? I'm spent.January 1, 2009 - 9:25 am Link to this Comment | Reply
6. Ron Kean
Where is the Gandi of Gaza. Where is the John Lennon of Jenin?
One of the first things I heard Jan 1 on my wake-up-alarm-radio-talk-show-station was Kee Ban Moon calling for an immediate cease fire. Right when I was forgetting how much I dislike the UN.
In WW1, the Battle of the Somme was proportional. About a half million casualties on each side in 6 months. It was a stalemate, as proportional responses can be.January 1, 2009 - 9:28 am Link to this Comment | Reply
7. ~Paules
Dear Professor,
We are witnessing today the legacy of Yasser Arafat. The man was no more a statesman during his time than Hamas today represents a government as any rational person would define the term. We are dealing with a mafia whose main sources of income include kidnapping, car theft, extortion, smuggling and contraband. The hatred for Israel is carefully contrived so that the people of Gaza have an outlet for their collective anger. Meanwhile, Hamas elites live in luxury at the expense of the many. Arafat created the template. Some sources estimate that he embezzled over a billion dollars in aid for his people.
The world press is playing into the fiction that Hamas somehow represents the aspirations of the Palestinian people. The rant coming from the press about "proportionality" should be rejected out of hand because it disguises the ideology behind the claim. The real story is about how our own elites use collective guilt and nebulous ideas of social justice to advance their own agendas. All the while these same elites accrue to themselves power, prestige and privilege, not to mention, as we have seen recently in the U.S., ample opportunity for graft.
George Orwell understood how language could be used to subvert truth, but it takes a Kafka to follow the road from the fictional to the delusional into the surreal. The people of Gaza today exist in a state of collective madness. What is next? Perhaps Gaza will consume itself in a fit of self-immolation. Plato asked the question "what is justice?" I'll settle today for the answer to "what is truth?"January 1, 2009 - 9:30 am Link to this Comment | Reply
Re: Fairness in War
Back in my infantry days, I used to tell my new soldiers this parable:
Two young riflemen were having the age-old philosophical discussion about where to shoot those who would oppose them. One was a "head-shooter"; the other preferred the "center-mass" (torso). The head-shooter asserted that if you hit him, he's done. The center-mass guy liked the larger target area. As they were going back and forth, their Platoon Sergeant came by."Hey, Sarge," called out the head-shooter, "where do you like to shoot the bad guys?"
"In the back," he replied.
As many as you can, as often as you can, anywhere and any way you can.January 1, 2009 - 11:41 am Link to this Comment | Reply
9. Bilgeman
It seems that every time Israel has allowed its' foreign policy to be influenced by Western Leftists, it's gotten the sh*tty end of the stick.
I recall the "Land for Peace" meme, and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza…to the point of removing their settlers at gunpoint.
Did it get them Peace?
The Hizbollah War…where once again, Israel bowed to international pressure and pulled it's punch.
Did it get it's kidnapped troops back?
So here we are again, Hamas fires how many rockets into Israel, the IDF lays a smackdown on Hamas, and the same pack of sh*tlips starts making the same flatulent noise about "disproprtionate response".
I would hope Mr, Barak and his people would learn at least SOMETHING before leaving office.
Do not take counsel from your enemies…
10. Noga
Palestinians, in Gaza, are sophisticated, media-savvy, they are familiar with Western technology and ideologies, they have open access to the most sympathetic mass media outlets, and they have a very good grasp of what democracy looks and feels like, from their decades of interaction with Israel.
They do have potential. Their problem is in their inability to deal effectively with the mythologies that shape their aspirations, and difficulty in discarding the Arab ethos of violence as the only honorable way of settling conflicts. Even a ceasefire is never seen as a pause for rethinking and talks, preparation for a more permanent calm. A ceasefire is for re-grouping and trying again.
I often get the impression that they would rather continue to suffer than to compromise and get to live a normal life, because they see no honour, or satisfaction, in achieving their self-determination by means of negotiations and compromise. They have to defeat the hated enemy, first and foremost. They never have any Plan B and you never hear about what happens the day after they get to destroy Israel and kill the Jews in it, or run them away from their homes and cities (where to, exactly?). They never explain how a one-state solution is going to work for them any better than than the two-state solution. Or why.
Enabler isn't too harsh a label at all for the press. Walter Duranty lives…at the AP, at CNN, at MSNBC, and at Rueters as well.January 1, 2009 - 12:56 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
12. Eric R.
Israel should not ignore the Jew-hating Western, Marxist media. It should treat it as the enemy it is. And deal with it like any other terrorists.
The Europeans, the UN, and the Islamic world can't hate Jews any more than they already do, anyway.January 1, 2009 - 12:58 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
13. Bob Miller
Didn't Hamas grow, prosper, and take over in Gaza while a Republican was President? The media did not force this all on Bush/Powell/Rice.January 1, 2009 - 1:11 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
14. momof3
isrealbonds.com let them know we support them, asshat media notwithstanding!January 1, 2009 - 1:12 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
15. Patrick1
Excellent analysis. It would appear that this action is going to bring back Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel should take full advantage. I agree with earlier posts that Israel has little to lose from total war. Can the UN,the French, the Russians, the idiots like Cynthia McKinney hate them more if they totally destroyed Hamas and exported all the Palestinians in Gaza to Egypt? Hardly.
It is time to fight 21st century liberal media with 1940s warfare. The results could not be worse than we are currently witnessing.January 1, 2009 - 1:13 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
16. Ben Florsheim
Israel needs to get serious about controlling media coverage about itself, as all tyrannies do with great success.
Israel has been two squeamish about attacking the obvious weak link in the social infrastructure that supports terrorism – women.
Mothers and wives of suicide bombers who take money from terror sponsors are accessories to murder and must be targeted for drastic deterrence. Same for SPOUSES of terror leaders who knowingly live off the ample wages of terror.
Lastly, Israel also needs to carry out occasional assassinations against terrorists supporters nesting or visiting in second-tier Western countries.
Israel needs to announce the new ground rules, then steadily follow through without further explanation. The inevitable Western media storm will die down in about 2-3 months, and be largely muted in 1-2 years, as Hamas itself has ably demonstrated.January 1, 2009 - 1:36 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
17. Ben Florsheim
Israel needs to get serious about controlling media coverage about itself, as all tyrannies do with great success.
Israel has been too squeamish about attacking the obvious weak link in the social infrastructure that supports terrorism – women.
Mothers and wives of suicide bombers who take money from terror sponsors are accessories to murder and must be targeted for drastic deterrence. Same for SPOUSES of terror leaders who knowingly live off the ample wages of terror.
Lastly, Israel also needs to carry out occasional assassinations against terrorists supporters nesting or visiting in second-tier Western countries.
Israel needs to announce the new ground rules, then steadily follow through without further explanation. The inevitable Western media storm will die down in about 2-3 months, and be largely muted in 1-2 years, as Hamas itself has ably demonstrated.January 1, 2009 - 1:37 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
18. fred
I completely agree with the idea that Israel has nothing left to lose, save its own existence. Even more, it's very energy to defend itself vigorously, which the Islamic enemies and their Western Marxist allies are laboring to demoralize. Bring total war to your enemies. I'm dead serious about that suggestion. Hamas, Hizb'allah, Islamic Jihad, Fatah/PLO, and the rest of them all have as central to their charters the will of Allah and the destruction of Israel. Therefore, bring total destruction to them and savage war right to them. Don't stop with Gaza. Bring it to Judaea and Samaria. Tell Rice, Bush, Obama, and Clinton that their idea of giving the Golan back to Syria is a pipe dream.
And find the means to wage a propaganda war of their own against the Western news media. Uncover and expose the links and conflicts of interest behind the MSM and its relationship with the Unholy Alliance that David Horowitz lays out in his famous book.January 1, 2009 - 1:46 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
19. fred
I agree with Ben Florsheim that it is time for Israel to take the gloves off against its Western Marxist enemies and the terrorist sympathizers as well. Let these academics and journalists who serve Israel's enemies know the real fear that unexpectedly out of the dark their lives may be forfeit too, just as the lives of innocent Israeli lives are made forfeit by rocket attacks and suicide bombs.January 1, 2009 - 1:50 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
20. David P
Committing ground troops requires that the end result be achieved with relentless determination & zeal. Soldiers fighting urban warfare in Lebanon 06′ were plagued by unclear & restrictive rules of engagement leading to colossal failures. Israeli gumption should not be deterred by world opinion, execute the mission tenaciously & with extreme prejudice, otherwise don't risk sending in ground troops.January 1, 2009 - 2:06 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
21. dennis
First Hamas,then Fatah.January 1, 2009 - 2:14 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
22. DoubleTapper
As far as the Gaza War is concerened, All we did was try to clean up the mess we made in 2005 when we left Hamas in charge of Gaza.
And yet some people have the ignorance to do this
How can we let this pass?
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from IsraelJanuary 1, 2009 - 2:18 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
23. kabud
To 18. fred:
100% support.
USA should act exactly the same way. No talks, no negotiations with criminals. Get them arrest ang hang. And it is not just in ME. Everywhere. Otherwise we all are at risk.
We should wage the WAR NOW, ON OUR TERMSJanuary 1, 2009 - 2:35 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
24. misanthropicus
I agree with Hanson's overall wiew of the Gaza situation, yet I'd urge everyone when analyzing the Gaza situation to use not Monte Carlo as analogy, but other, much more dangerous false states which have been designed exactly for proxy wars and as military campaign staging areas – one is the Transdnistr republic, squeezed between Ukraine, Russia and Moldova, and the other ones are the freshly "freed" territories, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both realms have good troublesome potential.
One may even think that the Russians have molded both arrangements (Transdniestr in 1990-s, and Abkhazia last summer) after evaluating the great troubles potential Gaza has proved to have.
I'll preempt the question regarding the US keeping Gitmo by inviting everyone to look over the map at the Kaliningrad/Konigsberg situation and listen the Russians' reasoning for holding on that.
Beware enclaves.January 1, 2009 - 2:39 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
25. Donna V.
Noga wrote:
I often get the impression that they would rather continue to suffer than to compromise and get to live a normal life, because they see no honour, or satisfaction, in achieving their self-determination by means of negotiations and compromise.
Very true. Mark Steyn pointed out one good reason for that a few years ago. The median age on the West Bank is 15. If you're an adolescent Palestinian male who has imbibed Jew hatred with your mother's milk, running around firing an AK-47 into the air (or strapping on a bomb belt and heading for an Israeli school) is more attractive than the hard and often dull work of settling down to create a viable society. And you are encouraged to do so, not only by your own violent, martyr-obsessed society, but by sympathetic left-wing Westerners who make excuses for terrorism and assume that "resistance" is the only course of action available to the Palestinians.January 1, 2009 - 2:46 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
I disagree with calls for massive retaliiation against the civilian population. Reprisals are a war crime plain and simple. Israel might suppress Gaza, but would also lose it's soul. As difficult as it is to say, Israel may have to reoccupy Gaza. It may be the only way to suppress Hamas. As for the useful idiots in the west, even their usual protests have been muted. The Pals have been shown to be duplicitous, without honor and incapable of adhering to Norma of civilization. Everyone is getting fed up with them – even the Sunni regimes.January 1, 2009 - 2:48 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
27. Good Ole Charlie
Fred and Ben have the right idea: Western Marxists are deep down, just plain cowards. A "whack job" (where are the Sopranos when you need them?) or two or three will help concentrate the minds of the enablers and help focus on reality.
As for the Gazans…kill them all until they get the message that: "…really you should help killers". If you're not with me, you're against me. Keep the message simple: cooperate or die.
And make sure some non-cooperators die…January 1, 2009 - 2:59 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
28. Good Ole Charlie
"…you should NOT help killers"
What happens when you type with a certain passion.
Sorry about thatJanuary 1, 2009 - 3:01 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
29. Eric R.
You are worrying about Israel losing its soul?
What about its physical existence?
Bomb Gaza into oblivion. These Islamonazis savages are beyond redemption.January 1, 2009 - 3:03 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
30. robotech master
To 26. DD:
I don't think anyone has ever called for "massive retaliation against the civilian population" here or anywhere… What everyone calls for is israel to actively fight a standard war… That means none of this smart bomb/target only their leaders crap. It means dropping 12 tons of dumb bombs on a target and wiping out whole blocks… and if civs get killed well thats the price of war… hamas can either not build their war machine in the middle of apartment blocks or ppl will just have to leave when hamas moves in. Thats not targeting civilians thats just not spending hundreds of millions of dollars and risking the lives of your own troops to out weight of life of the enemy.
A simple press release along the lines of…
"Dear world due to the current economic problems we can no longer afford to buy muti-million dollar smart bombs to drop on hamas. As such we much switch to cheap more easily produce dumb bombs. As you know it takes a ratio of 12 tons of dumb bombs to have the same effect as 3 1,000 pound smart bombs(forget the exact ratio) that is what we will from now on drop on enemy targets. If the UN or arab countries would pay for smart bombs we would gladly use them instead."
That would be a great press release. Real war has real suffering… suffering that hamas and the palestinians have yet to even have a taste of.January 1, 2009 - 3:22 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
31. Dennis A Traffas
Should the Palestinians prevail, the world would have but one more failed middle-eastern State, but the world would have lost a precious democracy in the heart of the Islamic darkness.January 1, 2009 - 3:41 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
32. Eric R.
Israel has probably 150-200 atomic bombs. If Israel goes down to defeat, I think we can safely assume that a lot more will be lost on this planet than just one small democracy.
Like the entire Middle East. And probably Europe, too.January 1, 2009 - 4:03 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
33. therealist
Another excellent article from VDH. Thank you.January 1, 2009 - 4:06 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
34. tanarg
The meaning of the following in the article eludes me entirely:
"What a Westerner would call an Israeli "victory" (e.g., terrible destruction of Hamas infrastructure with far greater casualties inflicted than suffered), Hamas and others would call "progress" in a century-long war (e.g., the world now accepts that showering Israeli with rockets is not an act of war, and not deserving of serious retaliation)."January 1, 2009 - 4:17 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
35. Fred2
Not exactly terrorists vs civilization in asymmetrical war. Hamas has infrastructure to defend, leaders to defend. Hezbollah has Syria, the North Vietnamese had China, Hamas has no helping neighbor but cold Egypt.
Hamas escalated the rocket exchanges and ended the cease-fire, but Israel could have waited a while, Hamas was still mostly ineffectual. But the timing was right, no need to wait, and no sign of improvement by waiting.
To make the bloodshed worthwhile, Israel must make permanent improvements on the ground, like shutting down the smuggling tunnels for rockets. Or taking and holding territory.
The words 'terrorist' and 'militant' are both poorly understood and poorly defined.
The best media policy is victory.
The dog that isn't barking here is Hezbollah, which has not yet joined in the war. Maybe they're waiting for Israel's ground campaign, when it's troops are committed.January 1, 2009 - 4:24 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
36. m
Bravo, PJM! So sick of anti-Zionist propaganda. Hamas are disgusting cowards for hiding behind women and children.
Spread the truth people, this is real propaganda right in front of your own eyes.January 1, 2009 - 4:44 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
37. KansasGirl
All Israel should do is win this pussyfoot war.January 1, 2009 - 4:54 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
38. ajacksonian
Blockade, cut off and isolate Gaza.
Deliver as much AK ammo as possible, no food, water, medicine.
Anyone who wants to leave for the West Bank can sign away all claim they have to Israel for themselves and their progeny. Photos, fingerprints, blood samples taken, individuals registered internationally.
If any of these individuals incite anything, ever, for territory in Israel: wanted poster, dead.
Once Gaza self-clears, those who left can go home. They will have made their peace with Israel.January 1, 2009 - 5:06 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
39. Ann
Lots of comments that make the good points…but the last one covers it as well as any. 38.ajacksonian: make copies and get that post distributed (starting with Gaza and Egypt) … I like your perspective.
The Palestinians (those who really buy in to this crap) just live to be offended. They have no desire for a normal life, so it would indeed seem that they can just as well be put out of their misery.January 1, 2009 - 5:35 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
40. George Best
Say what you want about Bush, but he is the only one with decision making authority who understands the problem of Islamic terrorism and even he fought it too conservatively trying to be politically correct. The liberals in this country have won popular support through misinformation combined with the overall stupidity of the population. Hamas and their ilk are justr following a pattern set by our own liberal elite and their sheepish followers.
Israel unfortunately has no clue how or desire to fight a war and tries to be politically correct in its dealings despite constant threats. When your enemy does not want peace, it must be destroyed. Westerners cant seem to grasp this concept unless it involves conventional warfare which will never be fought again in this world. From Korea to Vietnam to the Middle East, we are not learning or afraid to act.
Israel and the USA deserves its current predicaments and their passivity will lead to the downfall of their countries. Im tired of these half ass wars because all we read about are civilian casualties and not about the enemy who uses its civilan population as shields while they live high off the hog.
Is their such a thing as a limousine liberal camel jockey?January 1, 2009 - 5:42 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
41. albert
EXACTLY!! I'm sick and tired of the murderous thugs islam (yes, no cap) has been producing for centuries. And to all those feeble-minded/anti-semitic here: I am not Jewish.
Brava Israel!! That's the way to go. Finally.January 1, 2009 - 5:51 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
42. vivo
40. George Best:
"When your enemy does not want peace, it must be destroyed. Westerners cant seem to grasp this concept unless it involves conventional warfare which will never be fought again in this world."
Like I said elsewhere, let them dest4roy each other without outside involvement.January 1, 2009 - 6:10 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
43. Paul M Hupf
Alas, all too true. It is difficult for me to understand the pro Islam bias so widespread in the United States and Europe. Europe has lost its courage. It has forgotten that in the eighth century the sword of Islamd swept across North Africa and established itself in Spain only to be stopped by Charlemagne; that once Constantinople was overrun by Islam, the sword of Islam invaded Europe and was only halted at the gates of Vienna. Try to find a Christian church in North Africa! Israel seeks to retain its homeland. It has a democratic form of government. Women have rights in Israel unknown to the Arab world. Will we in the United States lose our courage as well? Will women here be seen walking around with formless clothing and head scarves concealing all but their faces? Will Christianity be driven from Europe and the United States?January 1, 2009 - 6:33 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
"Is their such a thing as a limousine liberal camel jockey?"
Yes, I believe most of them live in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.
The meaning of the following in the article eludes me entirely:
"What a Westerner would call an Israeli "victory" (e.g., terrible destruction of Hamas infrastructure with far greater casualties inflicted than suffered), Hamas and others would call "progress" in a century-long war (e.g., the world now accepts that showering Israeli with rockets is not an act of war, and not deserving of serious retaliation)."
I'll take a stab at it: The Western concept of decisive victory ("terrible destruction of Hamas infrastructure with far greater casualties inflicted than suffered") degrades Hamas' military capability (removing a proportion of rockets/launchers/jihadis) temporarily, but does not resolve the issue definitively.
Hamas and others cry disproportionate response, recruiting more of the gullible to their way of thinking, ie progress in their long struggle to de-legitimize the State of Israel. In a few years, say, Hamas rearms and repeats the exercise. Now fewer in the West are willing to see showering Israel with rockets as a cassus belli.January 1, 2009 - 7:18 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
45. James
WAIT A MINUTE!!! I do not for one second believe there is a war going on in the Middle-east. World-wide peace and stability was enacted as soon as Obama was elected. This is all a right-wing conspiracy to make people think that there's a war going on, all to discredit Obama. It's shameful that you readers have bought into this garbage. The world's never been so at peace. Thank you President Obama!January 1, 2009 - 7:23 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
46. Punditarian
Why isn't Gaza as prosperous as Singapore? They have a similar population density, and Gaza has a beautiful Mediterranean coastline that could be the nucleus of a thriving economy based on tourism, light industry, and mercantile services. The reason appears to be the ideology of jihad upon which Gaza is based. I have more on this subject here: http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/01/
why-isnt-gaza-rich-as-well-as-famous.htmlJanuary 1, 2009 - 7:35 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
47. torabora
It has always confounded me that Israel continues to trade with their enemies. Electricity, manpower, goods all flow across their borders. Why empower your mortal enemy?January 1, 2009 - 7:43 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
48. tanstaafl
(e.g., the world now accepts that showering Israeli with rockets is not an act of war, and not deserving of serious retaliation).
It does ? Well then, "the world" is now officially dumber than a box of rocks.
I suppose "the world" thinks the cartoons shown to 3 year olds in Gaza about killing Jews are just nice little kiddie diversions.
Seriously, has anyone in "the world" watched one of those Hamas training videos ?
Or read the Hamas Charter, which dedicates those self- aggrandizing brain dead idiots to the destruction of the Zionist entity ? (the assumption being that the state of Israel doesn't even exist)
Each so called hudna (just concluded, one of 6 months duration which was hardly kept) is simply for purposes of regroupment and re-armament. And now, Hamas (thanks to its state sponsors, most notably Iran) has missiles and rockets that go more deeply into Israeli territory than ever before.
If missiles and rockets were being lobbed into Paris or Berlin or London, would the Europeans be so superciliously sanguine about it all ?
The World needs a craniotomy.January 1, 2009 - 7:48 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
49. Eric
And regarding the US press, I would completely ignore them. How many are in bankruptcy now because Americans are tired of their bias? They are fast becoming irrelevant. Liberalism in government in the long term always leads to war.January 1, 2009 - 8:10 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
50. tanstaafl
I guess that statement ("the world now accepts that showering Israeli with rockets is not an act of war, and not deserving of serious retaliation") was presented as a hypothetical…?
But it seems to me The World, in its ivory tower aloofness, intellectualizing and dithering about "proportionate response" has already adopted that position.
Decades ago, the chattering classes were all on the side of the struggling state of Israel. Now, it seems, the fashion statement is on the other foot and the popular view is to denigrate Israel and criticize her for responding to relentless aggression from the north and from the west.
I guess Israel's unpardonable sin is to have already survived 6 decades of assault.
Frankly, I'd just ignore the world's criticism and get on with doing what needs to be done. "Peace" with Hamas and Hezbollah is impossible.January 1, 2009 - 8:13 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
51. Donna V.
The World needs a craniotomy.
You can say that again.
When leftists start going on about "world opinion" and Israel, I remind them that historically, "the world" has a pretty bad track record when it comes to the Jews.January 1, 2009 - 8:26 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
52. Eric
Wow – I had a comment deleted.January 1, 2009 - 8:34 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
53. lynne
I just viewed two very negative reports of Israel's situation (videos) on CNN. I notice that these same reporters and CNN do not cover the daily war activities and the effects of the US war in Afghanistan or Iraq with comments about the detrimental effects on those civilians, the injuries, the state of the hospitals, their concerns. It does not suit them to do so. They report quite differently when covering any issue regarding Israel. Their anti-Israel sentiment is clearly apparent. The CNN reporting is so biased and inaccurate that it must be discounted by those who seek accurate news. I only check out CNN anymore to see how biased their coverage is. This type of coverage may well backfire on them as people compare and become more aware. I hope that it does. In the meantime, it may be truly said that CNN supports Hamas, a terrorist organization, using CNN reports to sway public opinion against Israel.January 1, 2009 - 8:58 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
The body of Hamas leader Nizan Rayan was blown ignominiously into the street after Israeli missiles blew up his house. Rayan had four wives and up to a dozen children, most of whom were killed in the attack. Is it any wonder that Gaza is a teeming slum, when a man like Rayan (University instructor and "Islamic Scholar") has four wives and 10-to-12 children?
55. Rhein Gold
Listen up. Bomb Gaza. Drop bombs on them day and night until there isn't a single structure standing. Then send in the infantry and tanks and crush the rubble into smaller pieces. Total war is the only answer. Make it so that the next generations of Palestinians, huddling in their caves and hovels, tell stories of the power, might and terror of the IDF as they cower in fear whenever those stories are told. If the Arab countries that surround Israel have any compassion for their Arab brethren they will invite them to join the community of civilized people in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, or any other Arab country that is willing to accept them. Then allow Israel to turn Gaza into the "Monte Carlo" of the Middle East.
56. Mark Fradl
Hysterical – after almost 40 years of occupation Israel decides unilaterally what should constitute a fair and equitable peace (withdraw but not an end to the occupation of resources/occupation of economy), and then can't understand why the people in Gaza might still harbor ill intent.
You fail to mention that Israel still controlled land, air and sea ports; electricity, water (RATHER important in a desert land), food, and medical supplies, all ability to import and export.
Had this withdraw been coordinated and negotiated with Palestinian authorities it could have been seen as a victory for moderation and diplomacy. Instead it was seen as a victory for resistance and violence, and Hamas was rewarded for that victory by winning elections.
Oh, yes, and I love all you people SO compassionate about Israel on the one hand but advocating actions that would slaughter thousands of innocents on the other. Some people in Gaza have launched missiles that killed…um…1 person. Clearly then we're justified in slaughtering thousands in retaliation. By that logic, shall we level Harlem to stop drug dealers?
Pajamas Media, as always attracting nothing but the most intellectual homicidal maniacs.January 1, 2009 - 9:12 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
57. fred
Tanstaafl @50,
The chattering classes now get their cues on who the pet oppressed are from their Marxist handlers. The dolts are mostly unaware of why, how, or when this change occurred. It's been so much a part of the "narrative" now for over thirty years that it isn't possible for them to peel themselves like onions anymore.
Hint: It came from across The Pond in Eurabia. Everyone, get and read Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis." It came out in 2005. Her work is solidly researched and no one's been able to refute it. I've seen her interviewed and she's every bit as formidable as her footnotes and bibliography.January 1, 2009 - 9:25 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
58. thegre8_1
Israel- Ignore the UN, ignore the media, and yes ignore America and do what needs to be done. You have the manpower and the willpower and the weaponry to vaporize the Middle East. Time to protect yourself and take care of business.January 1, 2009 - 9:35 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
59. harry
Why not move Gaza Palestians into Lebanon? They could unite with Hizballah. Both are Iranian backed. Let Israel take over the Gaza. Create a UN buffer zone between Lebanon and Israel. Any Palestinians wanting to go the West Bank can as long as they are not militant. Lebanon no longer belongs to the Lebanese and could accomodate the Palestinians under the guise of helping their Islamic "Brethren". Syria shouldn't mind since they are Iranian pals and do whatever they say. Do you think such an idea has a snowball's chance in the Arabian dessert of happening? After all, how long would it take for civil war to break out and for the dead to number ten times the amount versus Israel?January 1, 2009 - 10:12 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
60. Highlander
Could it be that 30 to 40 percent of the Israeli population(the secular humanist librals for instance)with their postmodern view of life have lost the will to survive as a people or a nation. God I hope not. Because Israel is the "canary in the coal mine" for the rest of western civilization.
As for the liberal media bias against Israel, it is politcally correct for the western media types to say nasty things about Israel. It's not quite time for them to come out and say. What they really hate is just Jews in general. It is really ironic,that in fact many of these media outlets are indeed directly or indirectly controlled by American Jews. It's a hell of world it it?January 1, 2009 - 10:31 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
61. The Historian
Welcome to the club!January 1, 2009 - 10:41 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
62. JonathanInTelAviv
Re: "the crowded conditions of Gaza"
What nobody seems to notice is that Gaza is surrounded by desert, a desert which (Israel has proven) could be used to alleviate those crowded conditions.
If the Egyptians would agree.
And if the Gazans would break out of their mass psychosis.January 1, 2009 - 11:57 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
63. trumpeldor
Lame ducks as olmert or livni have no choice here
With 800000 Israelis within GRAD range, IDF must take over Gaza and destroy hamas
Other countries do not matter !January 2, 2009 - 12:11 am Link to this Comment | Reply
Brilliant article.
At this point, those countries and individuals who still think that Israel (and by association America) are the bad players in this long-running conflict are suffering from what can only be considered some sort of mental disorder.
When all the factual, observable, plentiful evidence is disregarded, what else can one conclude but a bizarre level of willful blindness?January 2, 2009 - 12:46 am Link to this Comment | Reply
65. daniel
I think VDH conclusion that most people in Europe consider Israel illegitimate is correct.
And its only getting worse,January 2, 2009 - 1:22 am Link to this Comment | Reply
66. Bruce
Concise resumé of the situation and in historical perspective. You correctly ground the basis of your arguments in our institutions (e.g., universities, media) as much as in the evilness of the jihadi culture.
Question: Why doesn't anyone posit the wreckage of our malevolent institutions as much as the well warranted destruction of the jihadist culture?January 2, 2009 - 6:00 am Link to this Comment | Reply
67. RickZ
Hamas, through their willing sychophants in the western press, controls the language of this 'conflict'. A Holocaust being committed by the Israelis against Gaza? Puh-leeze. When a 'country' is founded on the concept of a war of annihilation against its neighbor, replete with Nazi salutes (along with hilarious fire hoop training) and using (and praising) their children as jihad fodder, there can never be an accomodation with that country. Ever.
I agree that Israel must ignore the criticism with which they will be gleefully lambasted and forego worries about collateral damage, i.e., civilian casualties. As has been repeatedly shown by their placement of mobile rocket launchers in civilian areas, if Hamas doesn't care about their women and children, why should the Israelis?January 2, 2009 - 6:24 am Link to this Comment | Reply
68. chuck,
The left never entirely outgrew the Robin Hood phase. Let's play Sherwood Forest. Hamas can be the merry men; Israel can be the Sheriff of Nottingham. Bush of course is King John. Hollywood is brimming with Maid Marions. And, best of all, guess who gets to be Robin, the leader? Us white male pc types! What fun!
69. Ron Kean
34 tanarg
Hamas thinks they are doing well when they are being pounded because it advertises them as a victim and anti-semites will hate Jews more because of it. That's progress to them.
The more hate, the more progress. Their existence is built on hatred. They live for death and hatred. That's why you don't find political 'peace' parties in Gaza. I imagine you won't find 'COEXIST' bumper stickers there either.
70. Charlie
I prefer the proportional response espoused by the previous French prime minister who warned that any attack on France would be met with a nuclear strike.January 2, 2009 - 7:42 am Link to this Comment | Reply
71. Oldguy
I think it's time for Israel to rattle their
nuclear sabers.Maybe then the west will wake up.
oldguyJanuary 2, 2009 - 8:12 am Link to this Comment | Reply
72. Ellis
#6(Ron) Gandhi–who convinced the world that it's acceptable to ignore laws you don't like, and who suggested during WW II that the Jews should walk proudly into the gas chambers–is indeed alive and well and working in Gaza.January 2, 2009 - 8:37 am Link to this Comment | Reply
The Israeli's are the only ones who actual are concerned with Palestinian welfare:
1. Hamas uses the population as fodder for the war
2. The rest of the Arabs use them as a wedge against Israel
3. The Europeans use them to continue their fine tradition of Anti-semitism
4. Iran uses then as a weapon against Israel and the US
5. Yassir Arafat used them to put over a billion bucks into a Swiss bank account
The Israeli's on the other hand:
1. Keep sending them electricity
2. Allow food, medicine and water to go to Gaza
3. Try and target combatants only
4. Allow the wounded into Israeli hospitals
But it appears the Palestinians like victim hood. With every uprising and terrorist action they perform their quality of life has eroded over the last two decades. Seems their only dream is the destruction of Israel. When they took over Gaza they destroyed several useful facilities left by the Israelis including hot houses for food growth.
Palestinians have not exhibited rational thought in the last few decades and they are aided and abetted by the Europeans and the rest of the Arab world.
Without a major change in thought this situation will go on in definitely.January 2, 2009 - 8:58 am Link to this Comment | Reply
74. clayb
I think one point which has been overlooked, is that if there were peace between Hamas and Isreal, then the "militants" would have to get real jobs and even go to work and earn a living instead of strutting around and shooting their AK 47′s in the air and of course being photographed diving through the rings of fire.January 2, 2009 - 9:22 am Link to this Comment | Reply
75. tanstaafl
Oh, yes, and I love all you people SO compassionate about Israel on the one hand but advocating actions that would slaughter thousands of innocents on the other.
I have heard & read Palestinians who dare speak (many have managed to leave Gaza, last year I read of quite an exodus) place the blame squarely where it belongs, at the feet of the Hamas extremists.
The extremists actually invite the carnage right into their own backyard, to kill the "innocents" who are still there. The Hamas leader just taken out, reportedly, had an expecially brazen history and drew fire to his home, where he continued to live openly with his wives & children.
A cynical person would go so far as to say that the killing of innocents is part of Hamas' stragegy to draw world opinion to its side.
None of these people, including the thief Yasser Arafat, has had the welfare of the beleaguered Palestinian people at heart. Arafat squirreled away, in personal accounts, the millions (billions ?) given by "the world" (the EU regularly sent something like $10 million/month) for purposes of building up infrastructure and a viable state.
Suha (his widow) is living well off a large chunk of that money today. In…Paris ? where she'd gone years before the old boy up and died.January 2, 2009 - 9:54 am Link to this Comment | Reply
Good point. Perhaps we can send the used Parcheesi games.January 2, 2009 - 10:54 am Link to this Comment | Reply
77. Mirco
The best Israel can do is:
1) to kick off of Israel and never let them enter again the journalists in the pocket with the palis. Non need to kill or harm them. But negate them the jobs (or make it dangerous)
2) close all borders with Gaza and don't let anyone inside Israel, mainly not for humanitarian reasons (women can deliver in the Gaza's hospitals and be cured with Hamas drugs and surgeons. Don't let anything in (power, food, drugs). Not a nail.
3) Retaliate against Hamas without considering the civilians (there are no civilians in Gaza, as there are not civilians in Israel).
4) Destroy (systematically) the infrastructure of Gaza: the power plants, the water plants, etc.
5) Don't stop until the Hamas leadership bring the Shalit soldier back alive. If it is not alive, ask for Anyeh death (He is the head of Hamas, he is responsible for Shalit life).
Make this requests clear and public, for all to know.
6) Always, anytime a rocket or a shell fall on Israel land, shell a random place in Gaza with High Explosives munitions (really random – show the batteries and the random number generator of coordinates).
Continue until they are humiliated, sue for peace without preconditions and are willing to kill the people advocating war against Israel on spot.
Or until there is not a pali alive.January 2, 2009 - 11:11 am Link to this Comment | Reply
78. Ann
73.SAF The Palestinians LOVE victimhood. It justifies and defines their existence as a "state". Of course, within that state there are likely individuals who are not thinking it's so great, but they sold out a long time ago, when they refused to accept citizenship and a place alongside the Israelis after Israel was established in 1948.
At that time, Israeli leaders invited them to stay, assumed they would say as part of the community, begged them to stay–but the "Palestinians" at the time knew that they had to have some aces down their socks to use in the game that was coming. Getting those original Palestinians into camps, turning them into destitute victims and an endless source of fodder for their UN crap was essential to their plan.
The general playing out of this situation (which, in the specifics, is utterly repetitious over the decades) has absolutely nothing to do with George Bush or Miss Rice. Those who want to pretend it does must have had a very, very empty thought life prior to 2000.January 2, 2009 - 11:23 am Link to this Comment | Reply
The media's argument for "proportionate response" on the part of Israel is absurd. By the MSM's reckoning, our actions in Afghanistan the past seven years have been completely disproportionate to the attacks here by Al Quaeda in 2001. Not many Americans would buy that line. But more seem willing to believe Israel is conducting it's military operations in a manner outside international norms, and caused the conflict to boot. The Israelis are definitely canaries in the coal mine, as someone said above. Regardless of how "successful" the rocket attacks are, i.e., how many Israelis are killed, it is an act of war and Israel has every right to destroy Hamas, period.January 2, 2009 - 11:26 am Link to this Comment | Reply
80. Marino
Where is the John Lennon of Jenin?
Heck, I'd settle for the John Lennon of the US. Lennon was strongly opposed to high taxes. That's why he moved to the US. When asked if the Beatles would reunite to raise a massive amount of money for the poor Lennon responded "why would I do that" – I've paid more than my share of taxes, if we had a grand reunion that money is mine".
So when arguing high tax libs just tell them you feel the same way about taxes as John Lennon. The look on their faces is priceless.January 2, 2009 - 2:08 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
81. Daniel
Israel has other possible courses of action, that would clear the air.
That is: it could go to the source
Iran has openly assaulted Israel through verbal threats, Now it has supplied its proxy, Hamas with sophisticated rockets and authorized that proxy to use those rockets against Israel. These are acts of war. Israel could declare war on Iran, nuke some of Iran's nuclear producing targets, as well as Qom and the President's palace.
OR it could tell civilians to evacuate a large corridor within half a mile of the Egyption border and then destroy everything and every one who moves in that area without having written permission.January 2, 2009 - 2:57 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
82. Vee
Mark Fradl writes, 'You fail to mention that Israel still controlled land, air and sea ports; electricity, water (RATHER important in a desert land), food, and medical supplies, all ability to import and export.'
And all of these dropped as manna from heaven? Heck, I understand that Jews are the Chosen Ones, but gee…can't imagine all those services listed above were just handed beatifically to them.
I would imagine that the "Palestinians" should be able to create such services for their own state, no? What will all the money that's flowed to them over the years, you'd think so, anyway.
Or is there some reason that they are incapable of creating their own functioning society? (The answer to that could be QUITE interesting.)January 2, 2009 - 6:34 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
Ann 78:
I stand corrected, Palestinians seem to love victim hood.January 2, 2009 - 7:49 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
84. Tomp
Wars are only won when one side is crushed totally. Cease fires are only a temporary pause for re-arming.January 2, 2009 - 8:02 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
85. phil
When Israel decides to take the gloves off, they ought to finish the job this time. Can anyone imagine the USA restraining itself for the last 60 years if Mexico or Canada was launching rockets or exploding IED's everytime our back was turned? The outrage would be complete, the government probably couldn't stop the people from attacking either one.
When they do decide to destroy their enemy, they should arrange something special for the Palestinian press corp, also known as CNN.
Something, you know, nice. :)January 2, 2009 - 10:03 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
86. Mark Fradl
OH MY GOD!!! You people are delusional! You think that Israel controlling the Palestinian's ports, exports, imports, food, water, and medicine is proof that the Palestianians aren't able to do it themselves????? The Israeli's control it all because they're the occupying power! By your logic the fact that people were forced to live in concentration camps is proof that they couldn't pay their rent!
Palestinian's only get a fraction of the water (per capita) that the Israelis get. Want to know how Israel miraculously turned the desert green? They control the water!
Of course, the Palestinian governments have been plagued with corruption, incompetance, and thugs. All the more reasons to work on a REAL peace deal, because true statesmen (statespersons) will not rise from a land that has a boot on its throat. Often in a land under siege only those with a gift for violence rise to the top.
Then again when it comes to corruption Israel's one to talk – care to see the corruption rap sheet for Israel's leaders? We'll start with the war criminal Ariel Sharon (Sabra and Shatila; Jenin) and work our way down to the petty crooks Netanyahu (acquitted, against the recommendations of the police) and Olmert.January 2, 2009 - 10:49 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
87. Mark Fradl
"When they do decide to destroy their enemy, they should arrange something special for the Palestinian press corp, also known as CNN."
"bring total destruction to them and savage war right to them"
"Keep the message simple: cooperate or die.
And make sure some non-cooperators die…"
"Mothers and wives of suicide bombers who take money from terror sponsors are accessories to murder and must be targeted for drastic deterrence."
""where do you like to shoot the bad guys?"
"In the back," he replied.
As many as you can, as often as you can, anywhere and any way you can."
Once again, homicidal maniacs run rampant on Pajamas Media. The "moderate" among you merely call for carpet bombing cities and expelling an entire people (those who survive the slaughter) whereas the slightly more extreme among you want to include murdering journalists, peace advocates, and "leftists" too.
Is no one else appalled by the level of discourse on this website? Just substitute "blacks" and/or "jews" for Palestinians and muslims and these posts would be right home on a white supremacist website.
Good luck on your plans for a final solution. I hope you're not allergic to irony.January 2, 2009 - 11:54 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
88. Steve Walton
Seems simple to me. Any time a rocket explodes in Israel, shut off their electric/water/whatever for a couple of days. Continue as necessary.January 3, 2009 - 12:47 am Link to this Comment | Reply
89. Sylvie
jbird @ 3.
Over 400 were killed in Congo by rebels. Where's the outcry? Because they are not the Palestinians for whom Arabs spend Millions on publicising their suffering just so as to dehumanise Israel….January 3, 2009 - 3:54 am Link to this Comment | Reply
90. Sylvie
# 62 JonathanIn TelAviv.
"Gaza is surrounded by desert which could be used to alleviate crowded conditions." After all, where did the Arabs come from but the Desert. Is there anything wrong with sending some back home? Read 'The Original Arab The Bedouin' by historian Phillip Hitti. Find it on Google. They built Dubai didn;t they, so Arabs can build another one for the Palestinians, but not in the Jewish State.January 3, 2009 - 4:10 am Link to this Comment | Reply
Mark Fradl:
Delusional or a difference of opinion?
I don't agree with everything the Israelis have done in their short history (e.g. Sabra and Shatila, Lebanon 2006), but they have managed to establish a lasting "peaceful" relationship with some of their neighbors, including withdrawal and return of occupied territory — Egypt/Sinai. Gaza has had the same chance at normalizing relations since 2005.
Technically, the Israelis no longer "occupy" Gaza. Yes, they maintain substantial control over water supplies imports etc. Considering the history of Hamas , do you really think the situation would be any different today if the Israelis exercised no control over Gaza? If so, that would truly be delusional.
The elected government of Gaza, Hamas, is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That's the primary underlying reason for the ongoing state of war.January 3, 2009 - 7:42 am Link to this Comment | Reply
92. Andrew Ian Dodge
Where is the John Lennon of Jenin?
What you mean the John Lennon who supported the IRA financially? I am sure there are plenty of that type supporting Gaza.January 3, 2009 - 9:25 am Link to this Comment | Reply
93. Mark Fradl
Thank you – sorry if I overreacted, but seeing so many people here calling for genocide made me more than a little annoyed. I can accept people who have a different opinion, but not when that other opinion involves the mass slaughter of innocents. Refreshing to see someone like you who has a different opinion but not a homicidal one.
Hamas is certainly not the ideal partner to have to negotiate with, but Israel has to play the card they're dealt, especially when they have done so much of the dealing. Yes, they are going to have to negotiate with some horrible people, and yes there are times when they are going to have to bend over backwards, but let's remember the big picture: Israel is the one who has to make all the concessions because they are the ones holding all the cards (did I mix and stretch that metaphor enough? lol)
Yes, Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, but then the PLO did also, and that changed. And the Soviet Union said they would bury us, but we negotiated with them. I wish there was a Palestinian Gandhi, I wish a million Palestinians would march to every checkpoint, sit down in the street and hunger strike til the world forced an equitable solution. And I agree that the Palestinians are used as pawns by their own cynical leadership and the corrupt, self-serving Arab governments. But also by Israel, the US and pretty much everyone else.
And I feel sorry for the Israelis who truly want an equitable peace – even those in the government – because they are constantly sabotaged by their own extremists who know a real peace would mean giving up their dream of an overarching Israel encompassing all the territories with Jerusalem as its capital. And the idiot Palestinian fighters play right into their hands by giving them an easily caricatured boogeyman, the Palestinian who wants nothing but violence.
If you've never seen it, you might be interested in the film Paradise Now — criticized by some for humanizing suicide bombers it actually does a good job of presenting the different arguments, and while it does show the suicide bombers as real sympathetic people it certainly takes sides against their logic and their actions.January 3, 2009 - 3:00 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
94. myth buster
To call Israel an occupying force implies that there is such a thing as Palestine, which there is not.January 3, 2009 - 4:18 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
Mark Fradl:
"Good luck on your plans for a final solution. I hope you're not allergic to irony."
The Israelis have the capability to obliterate Gaza, killing all who live there. The Gazans, the Palestinians as a whole, in fact the whole Arab world combined lacks the military capability to do the same to Israel. I find it ironic that those who lack the capability to do so, so proudly proclaim their desire to exterminate their neighbors.
I find it ironic that you would take so seriously some of what is written above — which is in part, I suspect, merely venting — yet not once on this site condemn a government (Hamas) which is clearly serious when it calls for the annihilation of Israel.
And, of course, it is the height of irony that you would cheapen the historical significance of the term "final solution" by applying it to a lot of hot air on this website, while millions of people in the Middle East pray each night with their children for such a fate to befall the Jews. Again.January 3, 2009 - 7:32 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
96. ThinkingPerson
#86 Mark Fradl….Hamas = terrorists…..
How you can muster up the confidence to defend Hamas right now is beyond me. You must truly be packing a mighty set. Hamas is out to destroy Israel.January 3, 2009 - 8:16 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
97. Mark Fradl
Myth Buster:
Sorry, wasn't aware that the people in the occupied territories weren't a separate people from Israel. I assume they're going to be allowed to vote in the next Israeli election? You can play whatever semantic games you want with whether there was a "Palestinian" people 100 years ago, the fact remains that those people lived in what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories for a very long time. It's just another in a long list of obfuscations used to defend indefensible positions– i know, I know, I've heard them all – Israel turned the desert green while the Palestinians live in squalor like animals (neglecting to mention it's because Israel has the water and all the economic power (backed up by military power), the settlements are built on land that wasn't being used (neglecting to mention that it was unused because Israel wouldn't give building permits to the Palestinians), in 1948 Israel only occupied extra land that other people had left (neglecting to mention that the people left because they feared the Israelis, partially because of horrific – and false- rumors about atrocities being committed by the Jews) blah blah blah– content yourself with all your cherished little myths.
As you yourself stated Hamas has no power to annihilate Israel so no, I don't take their threats very seriously – I consider it posturing. Oh, I'm sure they'd love to wipe them out, but since they have no power to do so it's a moot point. Why should they recognize Israel's right to exist when that recognition can be used as such an effective bargaining chip in the eventual negotiations?
And I have never stated support for Hamas, and in fact referred to them in an earlier post as "horrible people." But Israel has to deal with them, it's the price they pay for never coming to terms with the situation. There are forces in Israel who will fight to their dying breath for Israel to exist in all the "historical" territories with Jerusalem as its capital (care to see how much support Rabin's assassin had?), so Israel toys with the idea of a real two-state solution but it can never quite make a real offer. Oh, I know the false claims that israel offered almost everything the Palestinians wanted in Taba – it's a false claim, but even if it were true then why hasn't Israel tried again in the last…oh…9 years?
And sorry I don't choose to ignore a lot of "hot air" on this website, but would you ignore all that hot air if it was calling for the extermination of Jews the way these people are calling for the massacre and expulsion of Palestinians? And if I cheapen the term "final solution" by applying it to this "hot air" then they cheapen it by calling for a persecuted people to adopt the ways of their persecutors.
To the extent that "millions of people in the Middle East pray each night with their children for such a fate to befall the Jews" is true, then hadn't Israel better learn how to stop pissing off the globe and deal with the Original Sins that accompanied its creation and the wars it had to fight 40 years ago? Israel shouldn't be the target of such deep, intense hatred, but then again it might help if they'd stop working so hard painting a target on themselves.
It's a never ending cycle — Israel makes life miserable for the Palestinians because the Palestinians attack Israel because Israel makes life miserable for the Palestinians because the Palestinians attack Israel. It's been 40 years!!!! Israel has to stop this unmerry-go-round!
Israel is the one who holds all the cards – the Palestinians can be nothing more than an annoyance to the Israelis (relatively speaking) compared with the Israeli's power to make daily existence miserable for the entire Palestinian population – a power they exercise on a very regular basis. Water, food, ports, checkpoints, highways, medicine – how about all those prisoner exchanges that take place when one Israeli soldier gets traded for a few hundred Palestinian prisoners. You ever stop to ask yourself why Israel is holding so many Palestinians in prison (9,000 right now, some of them children) and yet they're deemed harmless enough to be set free by the hundreds in order to win back a soldier?
Right now there are almost 600 Palestinains being held in "administrative detention" – no trial. Some have been held without charge or trial for years. Israel went to war – TO WAR – over the capture of two soldiers in 2006. A war in which Israel among other things – dropped over 1 million cluster bomblets, many in civilian areas (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789876.html) All over the capture of two soldiers. If Israel can justify war over two soldiers being held then are the Palestinians allowed to justify suicide bombings and rocket attacks over their people who are being held? And just so i don't get falsely accused again, i'll make it clear i'm just as against the suicide bombings and rockets attacks as i was against the war.
Want to know why Israel takes so much more criticism in the world that the Palestinians do? Because Israel is the one with the power. They have the power to oppress, and they have the power to end this. It's not going to be easy, and maybe it can't be done, but all those people who think Israel can bomb their way to a happy world are going to be in for a long, long wait.
Look, just ask yourself one simple question – if the Palestinians had 1/10 of the control over Israeli lives that the Israeli's have over Palestinian's lives, would it be tolerated? If Israelis were dying because they weren't allowed to leave the country for medical treatment, if their women had to give birth in taxicabs while stuck at army checkpoints, if their children had to survive on humanitarian food deliveries, if their men faced staggering unemployment, if their leaders were assassinated, how many people here would be saying "Don't fight back! Peacefully negotiate"???January 3, 2009 - 10:08 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
Mark Fradl:
I did not see your last post (#93) before writing the above.
Personally, I take it on faith no one on this site is seriously calling for the IDF to intentionally target non-combatants in Gaza (though these may be hard to identify), if for no other reason than that is exactly what Hamas wishes for, and what CNN et.al. is there to film. While many would argue the applicability of the accepted laws governing land warfare in a conflict such as this, targeting non-combatants should never be condoned. There is no evidence Israel has done this. There is ample evidence Hamas has located their weaponry and fighters among the civilian population, with the intent of maximizing non-combatant casualties for their PR benefit. By anyone's measure this is a war crime. I would eat crow if the MSM would duly report this.January 3, 2009 - 10:22 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
99. jdg
Let's keep in mind that Hamas will only crucify people for non-Islamic behavior. And crucifixion is not so bad. Sure, they drive nails into the palms of your hands and feet with metal stakes and hang you from a cross for a few days in excruciating, and I do mean excruciating, pain. Yes, yes you get thirsty as hell but you don't actually die of thirst. Get this. You suffocate from the exhaustion of mere breathing as you get too tired and weak to lift your diaphragm one more painful time.
No wonder the Europeans admire Hamas. Not even the ovens were that bad.January 4, 2009 - 6:37 am Link to this Comment | Reply
A corollary to "all that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing" :
Or do nothing but navel-gaze and question their own morality. The demise of the Soviet Union has created a sense of melancholy or lassitude in the West resulting in a wishy-washy moral relativism, where the average person can no longer distinguish good from evil. Israel's conflict with Hamas is a perfect example of this. If we can't figure out who the good guys are in this war, we are doomed. Hamas stands for everything we are against, and they should be considered every bit as much our enemy as they are the Israelis'. And I mean Hamas, not the Gazans or Palestinian people as a whole.January 4, 2009 - 9:33 am Link to this Comment | Reply
101. Mr Tyke
It strikes me that the Israeli response IS proportional. The terrorist cowards in Gaza hide, embedded, in the willing population (who voted them in to power) and shower the civilian population of Israel with rockets and missiles. The Israeli response it to fire "smart" weapons to target the Hamas leadership. Unfortunately, civilians are injured. They wouldn't be harmed in as many numbers if the Terrorists has the balls to stop using them as Human Shields. Where is the western media's condemnation of that? Saddam Hussein doing it in Iraq in GWI was condemned… why is the situation in Gaza any different?January 4, 2009 - 9:35 am Link to this Comment | Reply
102. Ron Kean
56. Mark Fradl
Please admit that if Israel had taken down the separation barrier years ago or today, there would again be a flood of suicidal maniacal bombers wanting to kill civilians.
You may think they have a righteous cause for that type of behavior. It's in their charter long before Sharon to destroy Israel. You may rationalize their behavior. But rational people must believe that that goal is unacceptable.
You also ignore the daily terror Hamas rains down on southern Israel. It has come recently with no retaliation. You ignore all the concessions Israel has given to show its good faith. Hamas people say they love death. Their psychology is inverted.January 4, 2009 - 10:01 am Link to this Comment | Reply
103. Mark Fradl
And a little perspective on how Hamas came to control Gaza:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804/?January 4, 2009 - 10:58 am Link to this Comment | Reply
104. Charles Gordon
Monte Carlo is a tax-haven (except for Americans) worth visiting once or twice a year.
Dubai has oil-wealth.
Beirut, the Christian quarters, was once the closest thing in the ME that you speak of, but now a satellite of Iran's proxy war.
Gaza has Arafat's widow living in Paris on a $100K weekly pension.
Israel is our canary in a coal mine (and of course, much more).
What to do?
The Chinese once built a wall, but with a massive land buffer.
Nothing other than regime change in Iran (i.e. war) and replacing the combustion engine with nuclear power?
Until then, expect our appeasement to Islamic influence and terrorism (certain), the loss of Israel (likely), and extended poverty for our families and neighbors ("change").January 4, 2009 - 7:17 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
105. Markus
I'm trying to understand, after "de-fanging" or destroying Hamas, who is to replace them as the rulers of Gaza? Certainly not the Palestinian Authority or Egypt. Who?
Somehow, I don't think many people reading Pajamas Media have given this much thought, or even care.January 5, 2009 - 1:34 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
106. Mark Fradl
Ron Kean:
I never said Hamas has a righteous cause allowing them to use suicide bombings and rocket attacks. I said that their logic is JUST as flawed as the logic that says Israel's smartest (and morally right) choice is to start wars over things that should be settled in other ways, both for moral reasons and because the wars never work, or if they work in the short term they lead to worse long term problems.
A great example of this is the First Gulf War– conventional wisdom is that it was an unqualified success. Yes, it was, unless you look at the human costs of a decade of sanctions that followed, the death of tens or hundreds of thousands of conscripted Iraqis (while letting the Republican Guard escape to ensure Hussein had the strength to maintain "stability"), the horrific cost to our own soldiers (more than 175,000 diagnosed with Gulf War Syndrome neurological problems – http://www.wbur.org/news/2009/82177_20090105.asp ), the cost of establishing bases in Saudi Arabia (which inflamed Arab resentment against us even more) and the second gulf war. Yes, sometimes war is necessary, but it's cost is so great it should be the last resort.
And I agree, taking down the separation barriers IN A VACUUM would not help matters and would lead to Israel suffering horrible waves of attacks. But it won't help if that is ALL that is done, and no one is calling for JUST that. Half measures won't help things, any more than "pulling out" of Gaza unilaterally (but retaining control over it's ability to function) helped matters. There has to be a comprehensive settlement involving a true two-state solution. Half measures do no good – again, if the Israeli's were forced to live under another nation's control – like the Palestinians are – they would be fighting back just as hard and just as desperately.
You accuse me of ignoring the daily terror that rains down on Israel– not at all. I want to see it end – I've stated here repeatedly (I realize no one reads ALL the posts) that I wish a Palestinian Gandhi would rise up and lead massive civil disobedience, I think 200,000 people sitting in the street on a hunger strike would force Israel to the tabel much more than violence.
But you say I ignore the rocket attacks while every pro-Israel voice I've read here completely ignores the conditions the Palestinians have endured for 40 years. 40 YEARS! Sorry to restate from earlier, but if the Palestinians had 1/10 of the control over Israeli lives that the Israeli's have over Palestinian's lives, would it be tolerated? If Israelis were dying because they weren't allowed to leave the country for medical treatment, if their women had to give birth in taxicabs while stuck at army checkpoints, if their children had to survive on humanitarian food deliveries, if their men faced staggering unemployment, if their leaders were assassinated, how many people here would be saying "Don't fight back! Peacefully negotiate"???
And I have to take issue with you saying "the daily terror Hamas rains down on southern Israel" — sensationalistic language that does not reflect the degree of damage inflicted by these rockets. The rocket attacks are intolerable, but I hardly think they equal a threat so great that Israel should invade. I guarantee more people have died as a result of the Israeli blockade (to say nothing of 40 years of occupation) than from Gazan missiles. So by your logic, aren't the missiles justified by the "terror" inflicted by the Israeli stranglehold, just as you say the invasion is justified by the rocket attacks? I, on the other hand, think both the missiles and the attack/invasion are unjustifiable.January 5, 2009 - 2:12 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
107. Mark Fradl
Oh, I agree that Hamas is horrible, but is the solution to invade Gaza and try to wipe them out, inflicting massive casualties, spreading more hatred and anger and resentment among the people? Let's say they wipe out Hamas then withdraw – then what? Another year, or 3 years or 5 years something just as toxic – or more toxic – rises up. They have made no efforts in the past years to negotiate with them. everyone says "How can you negotiate with someone sworn to your destruction?" — The PLO used to have that in their charter too, and it was through negotiation that the PLO was moderated (I remember it was big news when the PLO took destruction of Israel out of their charter and formally recognized its right to exist). Hell, the Soviets promised to "bury us", had missiles aimed at our cities, and yet we talked to them.
Well stated, I agree. Israel keeps trying to scrape by on short-term solutions, not realizing that the only way out is a comprehensive peace. And the reason (to answer some others) why no one is talking about the Palestinian's need to compromise is because they are powerless – Israel holds all the cards. I have never seen a serious Israeli offer for a workable, viable two-state solution (not the cantons proposed at Taba which technically gave the Palestinians 85% of the land they wanted but it was all chopped up and riddled through with settlements and Israeli army zones of control, and was presented to Arafat as a take-it-or-leave-it deal)January 5, 2009 - 2:25 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
108. furious_a
#10 "[The Palestians'] problem is in their inability to deal effectively with the mythologies that shape their aspirations…"
As Abba Eban once said: "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Never more so true than in the Palestinians' case.January 5, 2009 - 5:57 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
109. uburoisc
If you want to see what an eviscerated, hand-wringing, modern humanist sounds like, listen no further than Mark Fradl; a real humanist like Machiavelli would be appalled that a man could actually think the world has ever worked the way Mark fancifully imagines it does. Actually, I am hard pressed to come up with any serious thinker who could take Mark seriously. It is the same tone that Orwell heard from the European cognoscenti as they rolled over for whatever was coming their way; it is the sound of cheap peace masquerading as morality. Guys like Mark, with their easy blather about restraint and the college professor's rules of war will always drag on any conflict and make damn sure nothing is ever settled so they can aggrandize themselves with lots of public talk about the soul of the people and high conscience. Sooner or later, Gandhi Mark is going to face the Turks, and they are simply going to cut him and anyone stupid enough to listen to him to pieces, have a smoke, and let the dogs eat their remains. Frankly, Mark, I'm increasingly inclined to view you as the last, best hope for Hamas; without your busywork on their behalf, they would dissolve into Egypt where they would resume their attacks, but on the Egyptian government instead of the Jews.January 5, 2009 - 6:22 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
110. uburoisc
Actually, it is worse than that. Mark stinks of the sort of sanctimony that comes from a phony dissenter, a man who falsely and unfairly criticizes his own culture, loudly and publicly, to show how magnanimous and equitable his refined sense of judgment really is; he never fails to take a contrary or perverse position so long as he thinks it makes him look smarter than the average observer. Never mind that almost every other word out of his mouth is a cliche or a half-truth or a distortion of events in some way, Mark is above taking sides, his grand sense of honor gives him a uniquely omnipresent perspective; in his mind, he is the conscience of the world.
What he really is is the last man, the man without qualities; his peace is so low, not even the Hamas savages would touch it; it is worse than barbarism, because at least that has vitality, it is the sound a man makes when courage cannot marshal any of his virtues.January 5, 2009 - 6:45 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
111. Charles Gordon
To the contrary, Israel indulges the PA's pretense of sovereignty with greater legitimacy than we ever would for any other refugee camp that it is.
Arafat made Sidi Bou Said the capital of Palestinian tribe, effectively colonizing Tunisia, then moved his colony to Gaza (his wife prefered Paris, and she voted with her feet). Their status has improved from refugee camp to a colony within Israel.
It all started in the UN. But, the authority of the UN consists of nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement, and now the number of gentlemen are few, and the oppressive, life-term, autocrats are many. These abandoned the Palestinians a long time ago.
So, the solution is for Israel to dictate to the Palestinians certain necessary governing principles in a constitution (with the prohibition of Sharia courts) and set them off on their own the way MacArthur did in Tokyo. It worked out well for the Japanese.January 5, 2009 - 7:40 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
112. Maverick
I think the only thing the world is going to see is six month cease fire agreements between Israel and Hamas. When the cease fired expired on Dec 19, Hamas couldn't wait to attack Israel. Hamas, like Arafat in his days won't ever agree to any permanent peace agreement that includes not attacking Israel. It's true the world has grown too accustomed to Hamas attacking Israel with missiles as a part of life and any retaliation on Israels part is seen as extreme.January 5, 2009 - 9:13 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
113. Another View
I just have ask what is acceptable? O.K. Israel is there NOW. They have with the Balfour Agreement conquered Palestine. With that said does that give them moral authority to do what they do? I think not. If my house was bulldozed and my Grandparents refused to leave the house they built and had paper work for and were murdered. I would also fight to the death. What is sad is the innocent suffer. Hamas and every Palestinian has every right to try to force Israel from Palestine. I am embarrassed by my countrys support for Israel. Yes born and reared in the U.S. How many of you would support American Indian land seizure today? Or Apartheid, Darfur ethnic cleansing, or the holocaust? That is what has been going on for years in Israel.
Those Hamas rockets are glorified fireworks. I completely understand why the Arabs call us the Great Satan and want Israel destroyed. I don't agree but I truly understand. Israel is a oppressive occupier. And I want none of my tax dollars going there way. Israel gets the equivalent to $10,000.00 a year per citizen in U.S. aid.
You can't address todays issues without facing what Israel really is. A occupying force that hordes all resources and keeps the original people in permanent refugee status.
Religion is a non factor in my view.January 6, 2009 - 7:04 am Link to this Comment | Reply
114. uburoisc
Another view, it's good to see you've discovered the cut and paste feature of modern software. So where did you cut it from in the first place? Al Jazeera? The Berkeley Student Union? The Daily Worker? The local Wahabbist mosque?
You are another fool who tosses around phrases like "moral authority" and thoughtlessly, as if it meant something. Your post veers from moral humbug to bathos to crude sentimentality and then back to mendacity in a mere three paragraphs. Glad to know whose side you are on through. Why don't you go on over and try and get Palestine back for Hamas? Seems like the right thing to do, or are you having trouble finding a neighborhood toddler to walk in front of you?January 6, 2009 - 8:18 am Link to this Comment | Reply
115. Mark Fradl
"a real humanist like Machiavelli" — Do I really need to rebut a point of view that contains that phrase? Uburoisc, I'm sure you were among the voices who believed we should try to bomb and shoot our way to peace in Iraq, that worked well didn't it? What did work there (to the extent that it has worked)? Negotiating with the more moderate elements and literally buying off the same people who a week earlier were blowing up American soldiers. Evil, sanctimonious negotiation.
I'd love to rebut any points you made, but in two posts you didn't make any. You pontificated in grand terms about how delusional I am, and yet were too above actually answering any point I raised.
As for: "falsely and unfairly criticizes his own culture, loudly and publicly, to show how magnanimous and equitable his refined sense of judgment really is" I'm more than happy to listen to anything I've falsely criticized my own culture about. I give my country credit where I think credit is due, and I criticize where I think criticism is due, as I'm sure you do. But again, you're above soiling yourself by actually engaging in any sort of discussion, you'd rather simply launch personal attacks.
Charles Gordon:
Sounds great – the Japanese got to keep their nation, do the Palestinians get one? A withdraw to 1967 borders with no settlements (unless exchanged for other land) and true autonomy regarding ports, imports, exports, water rights – which is to say, a nation that actually has a chance to pull itself from grinding poverty, instead of one reliant on handouts that always get snatched up by the corrupt people at the top (the aforementioned Arafat and his ilk)
What of the fact that Israel had kept it's stranglehold on Gaza all through this "cease fire", and still launched assassination attacks all through this "cease fire", and sent in bulldozers (backed by tanks) to demolish agricultural lands under this "cease fire"? There's plenty of blame to go around, launching missiles (no matter how impotent the attacks are) is terrorism, but occupation/siege is also terrorism. Palestinians attack Israel because Israel attacks the Palestinians because the Palestinians attack Israel.
Another View:
Just a technical point — from what I've read American aid to Israel has totaled about $100 billion since 1948, and right now averages around $3 billion a year. A huge sum, but nothing near $10,000 per Israeli citizen per year (although it does equal more than that cumulative (if you count all the aid we've given since 1948)) – per year it's around $400 per Israeli. (wikipedia, among other sources). Otherwise, I agree.January 6, 2009 - 9:04 am Link to this Comment | Reply
116. goffredo vantaggi
My unshakable feelings: Israel is a western-style democracy. It is not perfect but it is worth defending to the end. Hamas is a nazi-like terrorist organization. The fact that a majority of palistinians voted for and support Hamas is a tragic feature of palistinian "culture". The fact that palistinian "culture" is anti-israelitic is due to brain-washing. The tragedies of war and of civilian victims is terrible but Hamas, that vows the destruction of Israel and of all Jews in general, is by far more morally responsible. The great problem of Israel is that it is losing the propaganda war. What worries me is that there is no sign that the tide in the propaganda war will turn. But I know where I stand and when shove turns to shooting I know what side of the barricade I will be on.January 6, 2009 - 11:42 am Link to this Comment | Reply
117. Mark Fradl
You say Palestinians being anti-Israeli is due to brain-washing – can you explain how 40 years of occupation by Israel would not cause the Palestinians to be "anti-Israel"?
And most commentators I've read think that the reason Hamas won a huge election victory was because people were fed up with fatah's corruption and because the Hamas organization ran a vast social service network– "It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services; Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections."
This conflict is not a massive war where we have to choose "sides" because only one can be victorious – Hamas does not pose a threat to Israel's existence. As for calling for the destruction of Israel, the PLO's charter called for that too, but Israel eventually negotiated with them and that charter was changed.January 6, 2009 - 2:17 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
118. goffredo vantaggi
Dear Mark Fradl. I've read enough history to know that a whole people can be brain-washed in a generation. Open your mind and read more recent history to know what it means. The dream of destroying Israel is pounded into the minds of palistinian children. The funding of schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, sports leagues with approximately 90 percent of the effort going to social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities is precisely how Hamas has does it. With Hamas the "quality" of the brain-washing can compare to how germans were brain-washed to following Hitler to hell. Post WWI germans were frustrated and had grievances and there was a substratum of german nationalism and germanic ideology that probably would have fueled another war, but the "quality" of german aggression and destructiveness in WW2 was a direct consequence of nazism. Nazism was successful in doing so because it organized, funded and permeated all kinds of social and cultural aspects of german life. The only activity on the list of Reuvan Paz that one would not find in Hitler's germany would be the funding of mosques! Similar things happened in fascist Italy, soviet Russia. Get a totalitarian ideology to organize the ordinary lives of men and women and to permeate the education of children and adolescents and PRESTO you've got a brain-washed generation.January 6, 2009 - 6:31 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
119. Mark Fradl
Are you arguing that were it not for Hamas, the Palestinians would love the country who occupies their land and controls so much of their lives? Why do these people NEED the schools, clinics, soup kitchens, etc etc etc supplied by Hamas. Because they have lived through 40 years of grinding poverty. And tell me, what did the times of "peace" bring them? Did Israel ever deliver a proposal for a true, workable two-state solution? Israel backed and helped fund Hamas long ago as a counterweight against Fatah, and then when Hamas became the bigger threat they funded and backed Fatah, always stoking Palestinian rivals to keep them fighting among themselves (not that they needed much encouragement for that)
What have the last 15 years been? Palestinians stop attacking, Israel expands the settlements. Palestinians start attacking, Israel expands the settlements.
So back to the primary question: do you really think that were it not for Hamas "brain-washing" the Palestinians would love israel?January 6, 2009 - 10:40 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
120. goffredo vantaggi
I think that if the palistinians were not full of irrational hatred for Israel and for jews them maybe they would have been able to re-build their future rather than spin wheels consuming themselves with a destructive attitude perpetuating it and hence ruining the future of their young.
Regards Israel not proposing a realistic two-state solution I think instead that the arab countries are by far more responsible for the situation of the palistinians. The arab countries for too long did not back any serious peace process for to have a true peace would have been equivalent to the recongition of Israel. They were and some are still hypocrites.
It all boils down to recognizing Israel the right to continue to exist.January 7, 2009 - 11:57 am Link to this Comment | Reply
121. Mark Fradl
We're chasing our tails again – Israel wants countries to recognize its right to exist but other countries want Israel to be fair with the Palestinians before they'll recognize their "right to exist." And I agree the Arab leaders have been self-serving in exploiting the plight of the Palestinians, but that doesn't let Israel off the hook for perpetuating that plight.
Meanwhile, the slaughter continues — 70 Palestinians dead in one building, according to the Red Crescent.
The sickening thing is that so many will defend this because it probably wasn't "intentional" targeting of civilians. Explain to me how it is irrational for people to hate a country that is doing this to them? And as Juan Cole pointed out today, it was a similar incident in 1996 (Israel bombed a UN building in Cana killing 102 people who sought shelter there) that first radicalized Muhammad Atta – oh, ya, Israel apologized for the civilian casualties, like that makes all the moral difference. I wonder how many potential terrorists will be radicalized by watching the footage from this assault.January 7, 2009 - 2:57 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
122. goffredo
The germans, italians and japanese did not and do not hate americans for the mass bombings of WWII. In WWII civilian bombings was an accepted way to wage total war! And yet peaceful, constructive and truely friendly relationships exist between the peoples of those nations and america. I have been living in Italy for many years and I have yet to meet an elderly person that resents americans inspite of having greatly suffered from american bombs and soldiers (loss of innocent lives – brothers, sisters, mothers, dads, while families, loss of property – everything, theft, even rape!). The civilian dead in Gaza are not intentional and can in no way be compared to the cynical WWII bombings! Yet the hatred of palistians for Israel blinds the palistians from recognizing the folly of Hamas and their likes. The hatred for Israel never subsides. I fear it never will. The fighting and killing makes the hate flare but the hate is constantly there and is perpetuated from generation to generation for reasons that have much to do with a default hatred for jews and Isreal. A palistinian is taught to hate Israel regardless of what Israel does or does not do. Hatred is the cause, not the symptom. War is the symptom not the cause.January 8, 2009 - 5:37 am Link to this Comment | Reply
123. Hal C
Many, many Palestinians have been repatriated as Israeli citizens, and are persuing their dreams there. Many other Palestinians have left the area outright, and I know some of them who operate business in the Atlanta area.
The ones who are left? They're either (A) trapped and don't have the means to leave, or (B) crazy as betsybugs and fanatical about killing Jews and destroying Israel. They have turned Palestine into a kleptocracy, pocketing the millions sent from Israel and other Middle Eastern countries and collecting arms to persue evil goals.
I feel sorry about the (A) class of people, but they need to flee from what are considered legitimate targets by Israel. I have heard some suggest that the remaining Palestinians be repatriated as into Saudi Arabia or other neighboring countries, but frankly, no one wants those people.
Israel does give them power, water, and humanitarian aid. It gives them access to their hospitals. Programs are in place for them to enter Israel. In short, Israel will do for them what no other nation in the Middle East will do for them. Now there is irony for you.January 8, 2009 - 11:13 am Link to this Comment | Reply
124. bcf
The real solution to Gaza is annexation by Egypt (not just the re-occupation of 1948-1967. After the IDF has destroyed Hamas, let Egypt, with its far more robust security measures, move in, and convert Gaza into the best new Casino in the med.January 9, 2009 - 12:00 pm Link to this Comment | Reply
125. plumbing
Wow! This could be one particular of the most useful blogs We have ever arrive across on this subject. Actually Magnificent. I'm also a specialist in this topic so I can understand your hard work.January 22, 2012 - 4:15 am Link to this Comment | Reply
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