text:
- S. Ahmadi
- Tehran
- Iran
This conversation is closed.
is Koran scientifically a miracle?
performing miracles is in order to give proof of the authenticity of message of God that it proceeds in fact from the Creator of the universe.
A miracle is an act that cannot be performed by the aid of learning and practice.
please look http://www.quranmiracles.com/ and please read and understand at least few of scientific claims or predictions of Koran in this link according to your scientific specialty.
if Koran is a miracle it is standing challenge for all times and places. In other words, it is alive while other miracles are temporary or dead. Hence, the latter might be questioned or doubted but not Muhammad's miracle.
it is claimed by Muslims that Koran has many scientific predictions and has no conflict with valid science and it is impossible an unread man at age of 40 immediately say such things in Koran in the context of Arabia at 1400 years ago.
is Koran the miracle or our era?
if you have problem understanding Koran:
Closing Statement from S. Ahmadi
this topic needed more time but TED admin forced it to be closed in 2 days and then accepted 5 day. so it could not reach a clear final answer.
many subjects about Koran done here and some had a answer and some did not have enough time to be answered specially subjects written in final hours before closing.
not clear conflict between Koran and science could be found in this topic. but it needs more discussion.
Jun 15 2011: SR MY CHALLENGE TO YOU- show me just ONE verse in the Quran which mentions just ONE scientific fact, clearly and unambiguously. JUST ONE. (به وضوح و نه دوپهلو)
In reply SR replied:
SR - "I showed you more than 100."
Reply - No you have not shown me even one
SR - "OK lets start one by one: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:3
This verse says that war between Roman empire and Persian Empire happened in the lowest land of earth.
Is this miracle or not? is this به وضوح و نه دوپهلو? [clear and not ambiguous]"
Reply - This verse says according your link "The Byzantines have been defeated. In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome. Within three to nine years."
And another exact translation of the verses 30:3-4 "Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice"
We were talking about scientific facts not supposed historical predictions. But let us consider this:
1. There is no mention of any lowest land on Earth.
2. The lowest land on Earth is around the Dead Sea and the Jordan Valley closest to it, Not Mesopotamia where the battle is supposed to have taken place.
So it is not clear
It is not correct if it says it happened in the in the lowest land of earth.
It is ambiguous one says within 3 to 9 years (of what? Of which date?)
The other says within 10 years (again of what? Which date?)
The Quran was compiled at least 20 years after Muhammad's death therefore so called historical events could easily have been incorporated after the events took place
Finally it could just have been a lucky or informed guess. How come the mighty Allah cannot tell us the exact date but has to make a vague prophesy like "within 10 years" or "within 3 to 9 years"?
So there is nothing miraculous to be found here.
My challenge remains SR – you or anyone answer it.
Jun 18 2011: "Within three to nine years"
who said 3 or 9?
Koran said in SOME (بضع) years. and it happened after 8 years.
when Koran said Within ten years?
please show me the "ten" in Koran! who is the translator?
"We were talking about scientific facts not supposed historical predictions."
I meant the lowest land of earth.
also prediction is another miracle.
"It is not correct if it says it happened in the in the lowest land of earth."
why? are you geologist?
"The other says within 10 years"
when Koran said 10? 10 in Arabic is عشر. Koran not said ten.
also the start time is from when this verse was revelated to prophet.
"The Quran was compiled at least 20 years after Muhammad's death "
oh! what? God said Koran verse by verse during life of Muhammad and many people immediately memorized it and wrote it on skins and bones of animals. near 500 famous people were waiting for new verse to memorize it. and many wrote it. all the same and prophet exactly audited them and corrected them. after death of prophet people who memorized Koran had some minor differences in READING METHOD (PRONUNCIATION) of Koran (with exact the same text). after 20 years you say it was making a standard Koran with same READING METHOD (PRONUNCIATION). not changing text. also at that time not all people obeyed that standardization and many people held their own copy of Koran like Ali (PBUH). also at that time of standardization at least 150 famous Koran memorizer were alive and did not let any change in text and the standard version was accepted by all memorizer . (near 150 of them are known today by exact name and even more memorizer than 15 were alive at time of standardization.)
I did not understand what you meant by 20 years.
"How come the mighty Allah cannot tell us the exact date "
he could but did not want. you are boss of God?
"So there is nothing miraculous to be found here.'
the lowest land
Jun 19 2011: SR - "Within three to nine years" who said 3 or 9?
Koran said in SOME (بضع) years. and it happened after 8 years."
Reply – I said 3 TO 9 years, NOT 3 OR 9. This means anywhere between 3 and 9 years. The link YOU provided says 3 to 9 years "(1) The Byzantines have been defeated(2) In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome. (3) Within three to nine years."
Also even if we agree to your "some" years. "Some years" is very vague.
And it says "nearest land", but even if we agree to your lowest land on Earth, according to the Tafsirs it was fought in Mesopotamia, which is NOT the lowest land on Earth, which is around the Dead Sea. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=30&tAyahNo=3&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
SR – ""It is not correct if it says it happened in the in the lowest land of earth." why? are you geologist?"
Reply – Don't be absurd SR. Your reply is like a child's. I do not have to be a geologist to know which is the Highest mountain on Earth or the Lowest land. It is general knowledge, which I have far more of than you. Because I spent my life acquiring knowledge and you have spent your life reading the Quran. Please educate yourself here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremes_on_Earth
But then again we have no idea what is the first war that is being talked about, nor the second war. Is there any independent record of the Quran when these two wars took place? And when the Quran recorded the alleged "prophesy"? Everything is very vague and we are supposed to, on the basis of these very vague and unsupported sayings, which are incorrect (the lowest land) even according to its commentaries, say the Quran is a "Miracle"?
As for historical fact we do not know. It is not either clear or unambiguous.
And, unfortunately, instead of showing Quran as a miracle, it has shown that the Quran is in error on Geographical fact.
Do you agree SR?
Jun 19 2011: بضع سنين means some years. and some is used in usual speak of Arab people. I do not know exact number for some. the translator should explain why translated it as 3 to 9 years. but if some one ask you how many years is "some years" what you reply?.
you are right now I checked the link and it has translated 3 to 8 years. but this is not exact translate. the translator has written 3 to 9 from himself and Koran only said SOME.
please check other translates. for example:
also please no one claimed Koran said exact date of victory. I do not know why you insist on date. only prediction of victory is claimed to be miracle not exact date. also the lowest land is claimed to be miracle.
who claimed that Koran predicted the exact time of victory of that war that you are trying to disprove it?
""Some years" is very vague."
OK. but it happened in 8 years and 8 years is not far from some. yes it happened after 1000 years than some was not a good predict.
I do not where is Mesopotamia. also i do not know if the tafseer you use as reference is correct or not. better to use a historical reference for place of this war.
also I think this is lowest dry land of earth:
"Is there any independent record of the Quran when these two wars took place?"
I think there has been many historians from many countries of world at that time.
"And when the Quran recorded the alleged "prophesy"?"
please note Koran was revelated to prophet verse by verse during to prophet time of life or prophet (from age 40 to end of his life). Koran did not came at once. and as soon as a new verse came many muslims around prophet memorized and written it (near 500 person at least). so it was recorded as soon as it was revelated to prophet.
"Everything is very vague"
I disagree every thing in Koran is vague. but some verses yes. have you read all Koran?
Jun 19 2011: some reference about that war:
Jun 19 2011: Matthieu and SR please reply here about SR's claimed "Miracle"
It is getting lost in that long thread, which maybe SR's aim as he is on shaky ground.
SR – "You say it is not clear. what about the lowest land of earth..."
Matthieu – "..I'm still not sure what you mean by the lowest land on Earth. Compared to what?"
SR – "..it means the lowest altitude/height land of earth in land (not sea). it means the nearest land of earth to center of earth. or the minimum height of earth according to free oceans level of water…"
Matthieu – "Ok that's clear now. What's your point?
About your answer earlier where you say: "I showed many verse." Quantity is not equivalent to quality. You can show me a million verses, if none fit the criteria, then they're no good for the purpose you're trying to use them for."
SR – "please say where is the lowest land of earth and where that war happened to see if Koran is right or false."
Richard – The lowest land on Earth is around the Dead Sea. I have no idea where that "war" happened (probably a battle), but the Tafsirs claim it was in Mesopotamia (see link above). I have no idea when the first "war" happened and when the second "war" happened.
Do we have any evidence of either "war" independent of the Quran to see if the Quran is right or false? The only way to judge that it was historically correct is to know these two dates and the date of the alleged "prophesy".
But whether it was historically correct or not, (all astrologers and so called prophets claim to have made the prophesy after the event), it was geographically incorrect. It was not fought in the lowest land.
Jun 19 2011: I literally burst out laughing when I read: "why? are you geologist?" Sounds like the cheap answer of someone who is being backed into a corner.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you don't need to be a geologist to know that, all you have to do is look up what geologists themselves have found, as documented all over the internet. My first instinct when I read lowest land on Earth was to check the wikipedia page that details the highest and lowest places on Earth. I was going to get it for you but looks like Richard already links to it.
I also feel like you haven't been entirely honest about this passage either. You said the passage said the war would be over between 3 to 9 years. Now you're saying the passage actually says "some years". That's completely different! Some years could mean anything from 2 to 15 years and beyond. Anybody can say "the war will be over in some years". I could have told you that about any war that has happened since I was born. I feel like that's cheating really.
Also, Richard and I have issued you the same challenge. I told you quantity does not trump quality when you told me you showed many verses and you agreed. When Richard reissued the challenge, you again repeated to him that you had shown many verses, almost as though you'd forgotten that you'd agreed that quantity =/= quality. That's pretty dishonest in my opinion. It's like you're trying so hard to be right, you don't mind being inconsistent and saying one thing to me, while saying something else to Richard.
So there we are. The score is you still have not properly answered the challenge after all this time. For some reason, you've given up on scientific miracle and have now delved into historical miracles, only to find that the Koran gets the lowest point on Earth wrong too.
Is the Koran scientifically a miracle? No. Or at least everything on this thread has failed to make me think so. If anything I've seen contradictions. And you found them for us! Thanks man.
Jun 19 2011: "Anybody can say "the war will be over in some years"."
Koran did not say so.
Koran predicted which side will won. also there was 2 war. first war was won by Romans and war was over. 8 years later another war happened (not the first war extended and some one said war will be over).
how Koran knew another war will happen in some years?
how Koran predicted Persian emperor is winner at second war?
"When Richard reissued the challenge, you again repeated to him that you had shown many verses, almost as though you'd forgotten that you'd agreed that quantity =/= quality. That's pretty dishonest in my opinion."
I think I said that Richard before saying this. also I did not agree my verses had low quality. I agreed quality is not quantity. you said these are not clear and I accepted showing other verses more clear (for you. not for me). for me all are clear.
"find that the Koran gets the lowest point on Earth wrong too."
please do not conclude quick. where that war happened? we have not still a valid reference for place of that war. I do not know the tafseer Richard showed as reference and I do not know how much it is correct about place of war. also I do not consider that tafseer a valid commentary of Koran. there are many commentary of Koran and commentary is ideas of some one about Koran and is not necessarily correct. you can read Koran and write a tafseer from your ideas about Koran.
please use the valid historical references for place of that Big war.
Jun 19 2011: SR "I do not know exact number for some. the translator should explain why translated it as 3 to 9 years. but if some one ask you how many years is "some years" what you reply?.
you are right now I checked the link and it has translated 3 to 8 years. but this is not exact translate. the translator has written 3 to 9 from himself and Koran only said SOME."
Reply – SR this is becoming a joke. You who have spent your life studying the Quran know less than me who has read up this thing only in the last 15 minutes. YOU are asking ME questions about information you yourself produced to prove the Quran is a miracle! And you are questioning the translator!
According to the Tafsir (commentary, explanation) the Arabic word for "some" - 'bid', [usually means] between three and nine or ten years. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=30&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
From the information you have provided I can gather that the second battle the Quran is vaguely referring to, is the decisive Battle of Nineveh, which took place on December 12, 627. So the Tafsir is correct it took place in Mesopotamia.
SR – "I do not where is Mesopotamia."
Reply – Christ Almighty! (That is just an exclamation) – SR please educate yourself, your ignorance is astounding. You do not know where Mesopotamia is, you do not know where the lowest land on Earth is, but on the basis of the Quran you wrongly pronounce that it is the lowest land on Earth and thus behold – a miracle.
This only shows the power of your faith. You blindly believe the untruth.
SR – ""How come the mighty Allah cannot tell us the exact date "
he could but did not want. you are boss of God?"
Reply – May I remind you we are supposed to be overawed by this supposed "prophesy".
The entire war took place from 602 to 628 AD, within the lifetime of Muhammad. He could well have made the alleged "prophesy" after the event. Vagueness is a typical tactic of modern day astrologers also
Jun 20 2011: Dear Richard,
please do not prejudice.
I always read the Arabic version of Koran. and for you I only copy the link of English translate (some times even not read the English translate)
"word for "some" - 'bid', [usually means] between three and nine or ten years."
"it took place in Mesopotamia."
as I know it took place in a place "near Journalism"
also I know where is lowest land. its around dead sea.
""prophesy" after the event."
yes you have this right to not accept. but history says prophet said them before the news reach to Arabia.
this relates to history and history should say the valid reply about prophecy.
please note the place in ancient map. not today map.
the countries border have changed during history. today Iran borders are different of ancient Persia.
please note that my reference says war was in a place "near Journalism" and also ancient Mesopotamia and also death sea.
the 3 place are near each other and perhaps one place in ancient.
please note that the borders of countries change over history and for example today Iran or Iraq is different or ancient Iran or Iraq.
also this is an explain:
Jun 19 2011: SR - "how Koran knew another war will happen in some years?"
Reply - SR you are now clutching at straws like a drowning man. Do you bother to read your own links? The war of 602 - 628 was an almost continuous struggle between the two Empires.
SR - "how Koran knew another war will happen in some years?
how Koran predicted Persian emperor is winner at second war?"
Reply - Possibly because the Koran was written many years after the event and incorporated its own "prophesy" within it. I am not saying that is what happened, but will you agree it is a possibility? And if you were a reasonable man and not blinded by your faith, you would agree that is the most probable explanation.
PS Persian Emperor was not the winner, you obviously meant the Byzantine Emperor. But we will forgive you this mistake, you seem to be flustered.
SR - "find that the Koran gets the lowest point on Earth wrong too."
please do not conclude quick. where that war happened? we have not still a valid reference for place of that war.
Reply - SR it is YOU who made the claim that it is a miracle, based on it being fought on the lowest land on Earth. So it is for you to show where the war took place and also that it was the lowest land on Earth. Not for us to show it was not.
However on the basis of the links you have provided it shows the war was not fought around the Dead Sea and thus it was wrong.
Jun 19 2011: Richard Dawson....you are arguing one interpretation of the verse on Byzantine........
the other view which is taken by most scholars is that the verse means closest and not lowest......the latter view is really new..and as a student of Islam....I can tell you is weak......I agree with you that it is weak? ok? haha.......
Just because the interpretation is weak does not mean the Quran is weak........because there is another more accepted view.......in fact accepted fully by old scholars of Quranic Exegesis........
The Verse on the Byzantine victory is a miracle in that it predicted- without doubting it's prediction- that the Byzantine Army was going to be victorious on a Day when Muslims will also be victorious.....what I mean by that is :
Read the verse fully:
''in three to ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice''
the last part says that on the day of the victory of the Byzantine empire the Muslims will rejoice in their own victory.......if you read the verse in Arabic it is even more clear.....
This verse was revealed in Makkah..........at that time The Muslims were weak and oppressed and it is quite amazing that the Quran is predicting that the same year or day the Muslims will celebrate their own victory...
now the question is.....did that victory for the Muslims actually occur with the Byzantine victory which the Quran predicted to happen in 3-10 years....
Yes,it did........
The long war which happened between the Byzantines and the Persians was from 604 AD to 628 AD
In the year 616 AD the persians gained a victory.........the polytheists of Makkah were happy because a Christian empire was defeated and they saw it as victory for polytheism against monotheism, so they were celebrating in front of a weak and oppressed and young Muslim community.....The Muslims were annoyed and then God revealed these verses in Question......
Jun 19 2011: The persian victory happened Seven years after the prophet Mohammed was sent as a prophet to mankind........
he was sent in the year 610 AD.......so in 616 AD which is 6 or 7 years later the Persians won...
The Quran said that from 616 to 3-9 years the Byzantines would be victorious and on that day the Muslims will also be victorious and rejoice in the Victory of God
The Byzantine victory happened nine years after the Quran said it would happen...
In the 6th year of the prophets immigration to Medina.... the Muslims did gain victory and a big one too.....it was the victory of the treaty of Hudaybiyah which showed the strength of Islam in the Arab peninsula was rising and that they, after being so weak, have become the strongest....the news would usually take a long time to reach the Arabs so the Byzantine victory happened earlier than the Muslim victory but it took a few years for the news to reach.....like all other things at that time.....well known fact...also, it may have happened in year 2 in which the Muslims amazingly won Badr battle.
So....The victory of Byzantine which happened in the Closest land to Makkah (because the Quran was sent down to Meccans first) happened at the same time a victory occured for the Muslims......most Islamic sources say the closest land was probably in Syria...it is closest to Makkah....
as for the 3-9 years question,,,as in why it is so vague.....it is probably because it did not want the Muslims to get over excited and wait for all those years......it kept it vague for a good reason.......The Muslims for the moment had more important things to deal with....that is the spread of Islam...
and also...if you know arabic well you will know that that بضع means a vague number which 3 is the lowest and 9 is the highest .....so it is not vague at all....because arabs use these words for numbers they know......for e.g..... an arab might know that this event will happen in 7 years but still use the word بضع which means 3-9 years...
Jun 20 2011: "Do you bother to read your own links?"
I read Arabic Koran and send you the link of translate.
"The war of 602 - 628 was an almost continuous struggle between the two Empires."
even in this case still it is prediction.
"Possibly because the Koran was written many years after the event "
This is 100% false. Please do not say what you do not know.
I said many times at least 500 known people memorized and wrote Koran at the same time the verse was said by prophet. If you have evidence this is not true please show.
"but will you agree it is a possibility?"
No even 0.000000000001 %. At least not one historian claimed this not from Muslims and not from non-Muslims. Please speak by evidence and proof. Also some famous non Muslim historians recorded the history of Arabia and Islam. For example Will Durant.
"And if you were a reasonable man and not blinded by your faith, you would agree that is the most probable explanation."
There is no evidence for it. And there are thousands of evidence Koran was memorized and written at the same time a verse was said by prophet. For example this verse: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:2 said by prophet near one week later the news of victory of Roman was reached to Arabia by trading caravans.
I ask you to do some study about history of Koran specially at life of prophet.
"PS Persian Emperor was not the winner, you obviously meant the Byzantine Emperor. But we will forgive you this mistake, you seem to be flustered."
The first war was won by roman: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:2 the second war (or continuous) was won by Persian after 8 years of win of Roman.
"So it is for you to show where the war took place"
As I know they both took place in dead sea.
"we have not still a valid reference for place of that war."
I showed some reference from Wikipedia. But Islamic references say war happened near journalism. Perhaps you reject Islamic references.
"So it is for you to show where the war took place and also that it wa
Jun 20 2011: "So it is for you to show where the war took place and also that it was the lowest land on Earth. Not for us to show it was not."
About lowest land we have no conflict. About war my refrences are Islamic. Do you accept?
"However on the basis of the links you have provided it shows the war was not fought around the Dead Sea and thus it was wrong."
Dead sea and near Journalism and Mesopotamia are not so far. Specially when you are speaking about maps of 1400 years ago perhaps they are same place.
Jun 20 2011: J Ali - "you are arguing one interpretation of the verse on Byzantine"
Answer - It is not I who am arguing this interpretation. This interpretation of the Quran was given by SR, who also states about the Quran "you said these are not clear and I accepted showing other verses more clear (for you. not for me). FOR ME ALL ARE CLEAR."
However we can now examine your interpretation.
J Ali "The Quran said that from 616 to 3-9 years the Byzantines would be victorious and on that day the Muslims will also be victorious and rejoice in the Victory of God...In the year 616 AD the persians gained a victory.. The Byzantine victory happened nine years after the Quran said it would happen...The victory of Byzantine which happened in the Closest land to Makkah [Mecca]"
Reply - The victory of the Byzantines was at Nineveh in December of 627. This makes it 11 years after 616 and not 8 years as claimed by SR or 9 years as claimed by you.
The closest land to Mecca is not Nineveh (near modern day Mosul), if you look at the Atlas there is much more land closer to Mecca than that, starting from the outskirts of Mecca - Medina, Jerusalem, Damascus, Basra, Baghdad.
J Ali "In the 6th year of the prophets immigration to Medina.... the Muslims did gain victory and a big one too.....it was the victory of the treaty of Hudaybiyah..it may have happened in year 2 in which the Muslims amazingly won Badr battle"
Reply - The treaty of Hudaybiyah, Wikipedia informs me, took place in March 628. It didnt seem to be a huge victory, but I'm not going to argue that. The fact is it took place 12 years after 616 and also it was not on the same day as the victory of the Byzantines over the Persians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah.
It was also not on the same day as the Battle of Badr March 13, 624, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr
In short it can be concluded the verse is NOT clear, contains errors and establishes no miracle, no matter what interpretation you take.
Jun 20 2011: "This interpretation of the Quran was given by SR, "
I only sent you the link of English translate. I read Arabic Koran. not English. I do not know any perfect translate of Koran. I select translate amount all low quality translations. but totally none of translations are good.
seems we should employ some historians to solve this problem.
about Iron atomic number is not it clear?
or asexual is not it clear?
could not you find anything clear?
please check http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/
do you consider any of its articles clear?
did you read Koran before saying Koran is not clear?
also Koran itself guided how to understand clear parts of Koran.
Jun 20 2011: Richard...
616 should have been 613..sorry about that....my mistake....in 613 the persians defeated the Romans in the Battle of Antioch.........this was in the third year of the Hijra (islamic calender)......It happened in Syria which WAS the closest land to the Meccans.........closest not lowest.....
In 622 At the battle of Issus, after 9 years, the Byzantines defeated the Persians.........as I said if you had read my comment well.....it takes a few years for the news to reach the Meccans.......
this news came at the same time the Battle of Badr happened in 624.......The Quran predicted that the Muslims will also celebrated in the victory of God........and they Did......
Historical accounts are vague and it could be any where from the second year in the HIjra to the fifth or Sixth......... bearing in mind the time it would take for the news to reach.......
The treaty of Hudaybiyah was considered a huge victory to the Muslims
after being so weak in Makkah they got the Meccan oppressors to make a treaty with them and it showed how strong The Muslims had become
that is why the Quran says on the Day of Hudaybiyah....
'' 33Verily, We have given you (O Muhammad ) a manifest victory.''
As for the closest land......than it was what was called Al-Sham.......Mecca and Medina and all the other places close to Mecca were considered as one country in what was known as Hejaz........Syria and Al sham was the closest land in which the battle of Antioch took place.
Also I did not say that the Quran was saying exactly nine years......I said a period between 3-9 years........now it did happen in that period but historical sources are vague and a bit confusing.........what I have given you in this comment is probably accurate.......
And if you understood Arabic this would be much easier because I would explain that ''Day'' in Arabic is also used as 'period'.......so The Quran predicted that The Muslims and The Byzantines who were weak would both be victorious...
Jun 20 2011: PS J Ali, while I'm about it let me reply to your response to my challenge on another thread.
J Ali "''Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them?'' 21:30
Big Bang....."
Reply - Let me remind you of the challenge - Show just ONE verse in the Quran which mentions just ONE scientific fact, clearly and unambiguously. JUST ONE. (Example E = mc^2, or F = ma, or water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, or fish like us breathe oxygen etc)
Let us take that verse -
One interpretation - The ordinary meaning, the heavens and the Earth were joined together, then "We" [God] parted them and they became separate. The Earth below and the heavens above. (The Quran mentions this elsewhere and also says there are 7 heavens)
Your interpretation - Big bang.
Which impartial person on reading those verses would come to your interpretation? Which interpretation is more plausible?
Conclusion - It does not mention the Big Bang clearly and unambiguously. In fact no reasonable person would say it mentions it at all.
J Ali - "''With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof. " 51:49
The expanding universe.."
Reply - (It is verse 51:47) If that verse was stating that the Universe was expanding it should have said so. But it doesnt. You translation merely states that "We" [God] created the vastness of space. Only some translations even say this. The literal translation from the Royal Aal al-bayt Institute of Jordan merely says "And the heaven, We built it with might, and indeed We are powerful."
The object of the Quran is to impress the reader of the great power of Allah and not to talk about the expanding Universe.
In fact the very next verse continues in the same tone "And the earth, We spread it out: what excellent Spreaders then!" It is not talking about the expanding Earth but merely how Allah with his might spread the Earth out flat.
Jun 20 2011: Dear Richard,
can you write the BB theory in only one line and then compare it with that verse?
I do no think the kind of clear you want you never see in Koran. please consider the possibility of problem in your eyes.
I think you need such kind of clear:
also please check:
I think it is more clear and more scientific and with more explain.
Jun 20 2011: The big bang verse is very very clear..........the earth and the heavens is mostly used in the Quran to mean the Universe..........so The universe was joined in one piece and then God parted them........what have the seven heavens got to do with the sky??? if you don't understand the Quran then don't speak....just like when a scientist speaks, I be quiet.....
Ask a scientist to describe the big bang for a child.......thats exactly what he'll say...just like the Quran....I mean thats the simplest explanation of the big bang ever.....The Quran made it easy so people of all times could understand.........
As for the expanding universe verse...........there are actually two interpretations on the verse.........one is the translation you mentioned.......
the other is that we are expanding the universe.......not that we are able as the translation I brought has said.........As a person who understands Arabic very well.....I can tell you that it means that We are (now) Expanding the Universe........
I think it is sad that someone can be like this.....its as if you just don't want the Quran to be right on one thing......even though it is so clear in some verses..........I mean i could come and interpret a scientific statement about the big bang and say that it is not talking about the big bang and all scientists would laugh at me.........
You want the Quran to give you formulas???
The Quran is not a book of Science...........The Quran gives you the fact and lets you think of it.......God is not a scientist...He is the all-knowing......you want to give E = mc^2 to Arabs of 1400 years earlier......That is really funny and quite ridiculous too...... I think I know that even if we give you the clearest verses you will still not accept them....because you are not looking for the truth.....you just want the Quran to be wrong.....The Quran Does not to give you formulas....it gives you what these formulas mean.....easier for humans to understand especially back then......
Jun 20 2011: Also there is a big difference between the verse on the expanding universe and the one after it......
the first one uses the word موسعون which means we are expanding and making more..it could also mean we are powerful..from an arabic point of view it is possible...just stop telling me what the translation says....i only give translations for you to understand the verse...I will explain the verse from my understanding of arabic.....موسع means that someone who gives more and more to someone and in the context of the verse it is clearly talking about expanding the universe....this is from an Arabic point of view..but you are going to keep bringing me to different translations when I don't even need one because I understand arabic quite well and have been studying it for a long time.....also it is my mother tongue....The Quran is one....the meaning is one....the interpretation may differ ........and also, the verse is talking of the whole universe as explained above and which is very clear if read in Arabic....
the second verse uses فرشناها means spread and flattened......as in how the earth is flat so that we can walk and live on it freely and comfortably........because the verse is talking about the blessings he has given humans.......this does not mean that the earth is not spherical as the Quran has mentioned in other verses...... it is just talking on how the earth is flat and easy for us humans.....
the two words as you can see are very different......even though the verses are in the same context...they do not hold the same meaning.......but still talk on the same topic in those verses
Jun 20 2011: My tuppence worth. (King James Bible)
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jun 20 2011: Behold the words of SR In chronological order:
Richard – "The lowest land on Earth is around the Dead Sea and the Jordan Valley closest to it, Not Mesopotamia where the battle is supposed to have taken place…"
SR – "why? are you geologist?"
Richard - It is general knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremes_on_Earth
SR - I think this is lowest dry land of earth:
(Hey what have I been telling you above?)
SR – "please note the place in ancient map. not today map. the countries border have changed during history. .. please note that my reference says war was in a place "near Journalism" and also ancient Mesopotamia and also death sea. the 3 place are near each other and perhaps one place in ancient."
(SR your "Journalism" threw me till I finally figured out you meant Jerusalem)
If Mesopotamia, the Dead Sea and Jerusalem were one place 1400 years ago, then it would be truly a miracle. Borders may have changed but places haven't physically moved. Mesopotamia, Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are still where they always were.
None of your references of Wikipedia mentions any battles in the land around the Dead Sea. Your reference of Quranic miracles is the only one that says so, without any reference. The only reference it gives is a link to the Dead Sea. It also mentions the Romans "defeat in Jerusalem, located near the shores of the Dead Sea."
Jerusalem maybe "near" the Dead Sea but that is where the similarity ends. It is in the Judean Mountains at an elevation of 754 m (2,474 ft) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
SR - "Dead sea and near Journalism ... Specially when you are speaking about maps of 1400 years ago perhaps they are same place."
No SR Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are NOT in the same place and never were.
SR - "about Iron atomic number is not it clear?" No please refer to my reply
"or asexual is not it clear?" - Yes it is clear Quran is wrong. It says there are no asexual creatures.
Jun 21 2011: "(SR your "Journalism" threw me till I finally figured out you meant Jerusalem)"
yes. sorry, typo.
"No SR Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are NOT in the same place and never were."
I did not say the same place.
I said my references say war happened in a place "NEAR dead sea"
and Jerusalem can be considered near dead sea.
". It is in the Judean Mountains at an elevation of 754 m (2,474 ft)"
I am speaking about "NEAR Jerusalem " not the Jerusalem itself. a high and a low place can be near each other.
"No SR Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are NOT in the same place and never were."
who said they are same? I said near.
"SR - "about Iron atomic number is not it clear?" No please refer to my reply"
sorry I searched but i did not find your reply. its is clear the word iron is repeated same as atomic number of Iron. this is not clear.
""or asexual is not it clear?" - Yes it is clear Quran is wrong. It says there are no asexual creatures. "
why Koran is wrong?
there is few species only CONSIDERED asexual. and you did not show me any certain accepted asexual.
and I think this is your last reply:
"OK this is incredible. We didnt finish the asexual bit."
Jun 20 2011: SR - "Possibly because the Koran was written many years after the event "
"This is 100% false. Please do not say what you do not know." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_Qur%27an
"I said many times at least 500 known people memorized and wrote Koran at the same time the verse was said by prophet. If you have evidence this is not true please show."
The evidence that this is true is what you have to show. It is based only on here-say of people long dead.
"but will you agree it is a possibility?"
SR - No even 0.000000000001 %. At least not one historian claimed this not from Muslims and not from non-Muslims.
"PS Persian Emperor was not the winner, you obviously meant the Byzantine Emperor. But we will forgive you this mistake, you seem to be flustered."
SR - The first war was won by roman: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:2 the second war (or continuous) was won by Persian after 8 years of win of Roman.
Dear SR I rest my case. You have contradicted the Quran (opposite) and also the references you gave. Maybe because you are Persian you were wanting them to win? Please give yourself a rest. You seem confused and flustered.
Jun 21 2011: about origin of Koran there is no doubt among 1.5Billion Muslim and there is no evidence (even claim) that TEXT of Koran is changed. I do not know how many times I should repeat that the Ottoman Koran is only about standardization of READING METHOD and PRONUNCIATION of Koran. please do not copy links and write your proof if you have any valid argument and evidence about changing in TEXT of Koran.
"The evidence that this is true is what you have to show. "
they were more than 500. but 500 of them are known in history by name and no doubt. and one of them was Aisha. she was a momorizer of whole Koran. those 500 were mostly from companions of prophet and all are from famous first Muslims in histoy of Islam. they are well known by name and even their family tree is known. and from each of them lots of sayings from prophet is recorded in history. also please note Arab people has amazingly very powrful memory. this is also mentioned in this:
"The presence of camels, mountains, desert wells and springs took me back to the year I spent wandering the Sinai Desert. And then there was the language, the rhythmic cadence of it, reminding me of evenings spent listening to Bedouin elders recite hours-long narrative poems entirely from memory. And I began to grasp why it's said that the Koran is really the Koran only in Arabic."
I think God made their memory strong for protecting Koran.
"It is based only on here-say of people long dead."
please study about it. people dead but history is not dead.
if a fact is recorded in history in 1000 separate independent source from different cities and countries with no link then you also doubt it?
how you ensure about Hitler? or history of new Zealand?
please note only doubt is about READING OF KORAN. not TEXT.
"You have contradicted the Quran (opposite) and also the references you gave. "
agree. sorry.
Jun 20 2011: @ Peter - all that seems to show is that bits of the Quran may have been copied from the Bible. Not surprising since the Bible was around at the time the Quran was written.
Having said that could you please keep your tuppences to yourself before I rip you apart on some other conversation.
Jun 20 2011: @ J Ali "The big bang verse is very very clear....."
Reply - If it is clear at all - it is not about the Big Bang.
The verse:- "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, THEN We parted them, and we made every living thing of water ? Will they not then believe ?" Pickthall
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), BEFORE we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Yusuf Ali
The sense one gets is of a person trying to awe a bunch of doubters with stories of Allah's power. Here is someone telling people the Earth and the "Heavens" (what one can see with ones naked eye above the Earth) EXISTED joined together and THEN the mighty Allah clove them apart.
@ J Ali "Ask a scientist to describe the big bang for a child.......thats exactly what he'll say...just like the Quran....I mean thats the simplest explanation of the big bang ever...."
Sorry J Ali that is nothing like a description of the Big Bang. It could have been mentioned there was no Earth at the time - it came much much later, No "heavens" no stars. The Universe was very small, very dense and very hot. None of these simple but essential facts are mentioned. Just that the "heavens" were joined to the Earth and then "cloven apart".
@ J Ali "the first one uses the word موسعون which means we are expanding and making more..it could also mean we are powerful..from an arabic point of view it is possible..."
So it is NOT clear. And does it mean expanding or expanded? Just like the Earth has already been fattened and not continuously flattening?
@ J Ali "the second verse uses فرشناها means spread and flattened......as in how the earth is flat so that we can walk and live on it freely and comfortably...."
Thank you J Ali for confirming another verse where the Quran says the Earth is flat.
Jun 21 2011: "Reply - If it is clear at all - it is not about the Big Bang."
name is not important. both are describing same thing in two name.
also please note this is not the only verse about start of creation. if you consider all of those verses together other descriptions of BB are mentioned in Koran. for example Kora says in one stage universe was like a red flower. or one stage was gas and one stage all things were water also many other verses. they all should be considered together.
"Thank you J Ali for confirming another verse where the Quran says the Earth is flat. "
flattened is different of flat. flat has two meaning. you only stick to your believes and do not accept any thing else. does the change option exist in your brain?
also he said: "flat so that we can walk and live on it freely and comfortably." it is different of flat like a plate. please do not misquote for your benefit.
Jun 20 2011: Finally J Ali as Jim Lloyd puts it there is nothing miraculous about coincidental occurrences of something that appears to be remotely resembling a scientific fact. "In any large text if you search for similar coincidences you will find some. But in the process you automatically skip over all of the failed coincidences, i.e. text where there might have been similar coincidence but there wasn't. This is the Cherry Picking fallacy."
As I have shown you have to ignore the obvious discrepancies within even one verse to torture out any scientific explanation from it.
You have to ignore the message of the verses - what are they about? Telling you about the Universe? If so they have got it wrong, or pulling out some unverifiable assertions and trying to impress the ignorant audience?
You have to ignore the subsequent verses "And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance." which are clearly unscientific.
And of course there is the mandatory promise of hell in this and every chapter, if you do not believe, to clinch the argument.
"If only the Unbelievers knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor yet from their backs, and (when) no help can reach them!"
"They would not be so unreasonable if they only realised the terrible future for them! The Fire will envelop them on all sides, and no help will then be possible. Is it not best for them now to turn and repent?"
Oh yes that should settle unbelief alright.
Jun 21 2011: Richard Dawson...............
read the first paragraph on the Big Bang for kids...and you..
the thing you can't understand is that the verse clearly says the universe........the universe was joined together in one piece..........if you read it in arabic it says السماوات والأرض which means the whole universe..........the Heavens also means the Universe.......now if you don't want to accept that, then I don't really care........the verse says that the Heavens and The Earth WERE one united piece..........and that is definitely what the big bang is saying......
And when the Quran uses the word ''did they not see'' it usually means ''did they not know''
as in knowledge of something...........أو لم ير means the sight of knowledge as is clear in Arabic......
As for the verse which says the Earth is Flat.......I explained what is meant by the earth is flat is that it is smooth and easy for us to walk on and live on..........there are many verses in the Quran which say the Earth is spherical
''And We made the people who were considered weak to inherit the easts of the land and the wests thereof which We have blessed.''
''But nay! I swear by the Lord of the rising-places and the setting-places of the planets that We verily are Able''
''Lord of the heavens and of the earth and all that is between them, and Lord of the sun's risings.''
All the Easts and all the Wests
''Until when he comes to Us, he says: O would that between me and you there were the distance of the East and the West; so evil is the associate!''
the word used in this verse is مشرقين which means the two sun rising points.......it is pointing to the fact that the earth is spherical...........
anyway.......the verse is very clear in the big bang.........don't accept it if you don't want.......you asked for someone to give a clear verse and I did........but you had planned not to accept it anyway.........
on the mountains.....
Jun 21 2011: on the mountains.........
read this link
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080605150912.htm where it talks of the mountains being roots.........science hasn't even known this fact yet.....they are close to understanding it......just because science hasn't got a fact on this yet doesn't mean that you can state that it is definitely not a fact and never will be i.e not scientific.......not knowing is not, knowing that something is not.......
''But this Day (the Day of Resurrection) those who believe will laugh at the disbelievers''
just as you may laugh now.....I will laugh at you on the Day of Judgment.......you are unwilling to accept verses scientific or not........because you have decided not to......I always win against knowledgeable people......but always lose against ignorant people......
The mandatory promise of hell is mentioned with the mandatory promise of heaven usually and the promise of hell should be mentioned for people like you........that it is the truth of life......there will be a day of judgment and unbelievers will be in hell, believers will be in heaven.......you can't deny that until you see it not happening......but when it does happen....what will you say?!
''Say: "Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know who it is that is on the straight and even way, and who it is that has received Guidance."
20:135.......mentioning the fact that the Believers will gain victory.....
''and does it mean expanding or expanded?''
No....it means expanding....موسعون means now and continuously.....it is the present-future tense....
you are ignorant........just because there are verses which haven't been proven yet...like the mountain verse......does not mean they will not in the future.........they are getting close as in the link I sent....
Coincidence......what coincidence??.....the verses are clear...
The promise of hell and heaven is what we were created for.......either heaven or no
Jun 21 2011: Get me one verse in the Bible which talks on the Big Bang and the expanding universe....and then I will accept the coincidences....one scientific error in the Quran..?
The Quran is not a coincidence....It is a Book of Guidance from God....some verses in it are scientific and some are great philosophical proofs which the likes of Avicenna accepted without doubt.....and some are verses on the Day of Judgment and some are on God......and some are and some are...the MAIN miracle of the Quran for Arabs is that not one Arab could ever bring one chapter the likes of the Quran......nor will any Arab be able to do so.....the miracle for non-arabs is everything else in the Quran....Laws....science....ethics...philosophical proofs..
''which are clearly unscientific''
How so? What the Quran is saying is that the mountains act as pegs and keep the earths crust from moving.........Maybe science will one day prove this.....and it will.......read the link I gave you.......just because it is not a fact yet.....doesn't mean you can dismiss it outright.......that is clear ignorance on your part.....
Read the Book fully until you can begin to understand it........
Anyway, I have met many people like you ......who have planned earlier not to accept anything.........that said, I respect your views and respect the way you like to argue....and I don't hate you........I hope one day you will reach your final goal......whatever that may be.....but the truth will also come......
We were created for everlasting life....with no difficulties....I invite you to that.....
''Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His Mercy and for that did He create them''
The Bible has many errors.. we believe it was corrupted...The Quran has none......and all these claimed errors have been refuted time and time again........but a person will always look for what he likes....in this case, Islam being wrong...Islam is the Truth......Islam is submission....Read the Quran yourself fully please...
Jun 21 2011: J Ali "read the first paragraph on the Big Bang for kids...and you.. http://www.esa.int/esaKIDSen/SEMSZ5WJD1E_OurUniverse_0.html"
You think I wouldnt read it? "Most astronomers believe the Universe began in a Big Bang about 14 billion years ago. At that time, the entire Universe was inside a bubble that was thousands of times smaller than a pinhead. It was hotter and denser than anything we can imagine."
Quran "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), BEFORE we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
Yes they are so similar - NOT. Please that is describing the Big Bang? You must think I am pretty incredulous to believe that.
Instead of mentioning there was no Earth at the time, No "heavens" or stars, it states both were around and cloven asunder. And you still think thats the Big Bang? Shows how little you know about the theory.
J Ali "Get me one verse in the Bible which talks on the Big Bang and the expanding universe....and then I will accept the coincidences....one scientific error in the Quran..?"
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
That is far more coincidentally correct than the Quran. The early Universe was composed mostly of light.
The scientific errors (and others) in the Quran are numerous. How about this very one about the Big Bang about the Earth and the Heavens being around? and cloven apart?
J Ali "on the mountains....... read this link
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080605150912.htm where it talks of the mountains being roots..."
Did you again think I would not read it? "Mountain Ranges Rise Much More Rapidly Than Geologists Expected" - Roots indeed - you are desperate to believe - not scientific
Jun 21 2011: ''At that time, the entire Universe was inside a bubble that was thousands of times smaller than a pinhead.''
Haha, I knew you would read it, thats why I asked you to....
This sentence says that THIS entire universe was inside a bubble........oh but wait, this universe didn't exist back then...how wrong this sentence is.......your logic is ridiculous and funny......
thats how humans speak.......the universe (the heavens and the earth as the Quran says) was one united piece...you have misunderstood the translation...ask any arab to read the arabic script and he will tell you that the verse says '' and then we clove them asunder''......its like when you say that this adult was once a young child.....oooh what a mistake because THIS Adult didn't exist back then.....thats funny........you want the Quran to be wrong so bad that you can start saying ridiculous things......
The Quran talks of a gaseous state of the Universe which is what scientists say......
as I said before.......before you even start an argument....you plan to not accept any thing other then that which is in your arrogant head.......
Jun 21 2011: I actually thought that you would read the last article......
'' On the surface, the buckling manifests itself as a rising mountain range, but beneath the crust, the buckling creates a heavy, high-density "root" that holds the crust down like an anchor, says Garzione. Conventional tectonic theory says that convection of the fluid mantle deep in the Earth slowly erodes this heavy root like a stream wearing down a rock, allowing mountains to gradually rise as the crust shortens and thickens''
like an anchor..........
''And the mountains as pegs?''
Jun 21 2011: @ Jim Lloyd "Does it change your thoughts about the numerical coincidences in the Koran if ..."
Jim you must be joking. SR's faith is impervious to reason or evidence. This argument is only for the uncommitted logical people listening in whose minds may still be open.
@ J Ali "This sentence says that THIS entire universe was inside a bubble........oh but wait, this universe didn't exist back then...how wrong this sentence is.......your logic is ridiculous and funny......"
Stop trying to play around with semantics. The visible "heavens" and Earth existed in Muhammad's time. Thats what he was talking about. He nor the Quran had any concept of what they were or the vastness of space. It is even claimed he walked on the Milky way and returned in one night.
It was a simple matter for him to say - you see this heaven and you see this Earth, they weren't around when the Universe began (NOT created, began). Instead he said they both existed but were joined together and the great and powerful Allah clove them apart (with a mighty chisel, I'm guessing).
Sorry J Ali "The big bang verse" is "very very clear" about not being anything like the Big Bang
The Quran says "Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs?"
The science digest article says "When oceanic and continental plates come together, geologists believe the continental crust buckles. On the surface, the buckling manifests itself as a rising mountain range, but beneath the crust, the buckling creates a heavy, high-density "root" that holds the crust down like an anchor, says Garzione. Conventional tectonic theory says that convection of the fluid mantle deep in the Earth slowly erodes this heavy root like a stream wearing down a rock, allowing mountains to gradually rise as the crust shortens and thickens."
Jun 21 2011: ''Stop trying to play around with semantics. The visible "heavens" and Earth existed in Muhammad's time. Thats what he was talking about. He nor the Quran had any concept of what they were or the vastness of space. It is even claimed he walked on the Milky way and returned in one night.''
If you didn't hate Islam so much you wouldn't have said that..........I could say the same thing about statements from scientists ....but I accept proof...and I accept what is clear.....
Again you show that you are ignorant of what Islam is and what it teaches........when did I or any of the Islamic sources say that he (Peace be Upon Him) walked the Milky way in one night and return??!
The Quran says the Mountains are pegs.read the verse again........now if you don't know what a peg is and how similar it is to a root which acts as an anchor as the article says......then I don't know what to do......
Again you hate Islam so much.....ridiculous statements from you.......statements of a true loser......
The Earth is actually MOST UNSTABLE at the plate boundaries where the mountain ranges are. This is opposite to the Quran saying that mountains act as pegs keeping the Earth stable.''
When did the Quran say the mountain areas are stable?? and was it even talking about earthquakes??
I won't go any further but please read this article
it's an explanation......
Muhammed (PBUH) knew very well what he was saying......it is very clear.....and it's what science is trying to understand.....read the article and don't be biased...
I have been brainwashed?! who brainwashed me?! that is really funny........well then maybe Avicenna was also brainwashed and maybe Averroes too.....and Maybe all the Great Muslim Scientists and philosophers of the past were also brainwashed.........I have been studying Islam for years......I have compared it's arguments with other Arguments with no Bias.....because I want to find the truth......Islam is that..
Jun 21 2011: And whatever you say......More and more people who are looking for the truth are embracing Islam......do you really think God cares about the people who leave Islam?? do you think I really care??
''O ye who believe! Ye have charge of your own souls. He who erreth cannot injure you if ye are rightly guided. Unto Allah ye will all return; and then He will inform you of what ye used to do.''
Jun 21 2011: "However, according to Garzione, the delamination theory suggests that instead of eroding slowly away, the root heats up and oozes downward like a drop of molasses until it abruptly breaks free and sinks into the hot fluid mantle. The mountains above, suddenly free of the weight of the blob, would rush upward and, in the case of the Andes, lift from a height of less than two kilometers to about four kilometers in less than 4 million years."
That article is not saying the mountains are either pegs or anchors or roots. According to this theory the mountains rise faster when the root breaks free and sinks into the hot fluid mantle.
The Earth is actually MOST UNSTABLE at the plate boundaries where the mountain ranges are. This is opposite to the Quran saying that mountains act as pegs keeping the Earth stable.
@ J Ali "What the Quran is saying is that the mountains act as pegs and keep the earths crust from moving.........Maybe science will one day prove this....you are ignorant........just because there are verses which haven't been proven yet...like the mountain verse......does not mean they will not in the future..."
Talk about confirmation bias. The Quran is the truth, now they just have to prove it.
J Ali "I have met many people like you ......who have planned earlier not to accept anything"
I have not planned not to "accept anything", there is nothing you have shown me that is acceptable. You on the other had have planned not to accept anything contrary to your beliefs.
"I don't hate you" Thank you J Ali, why should you? There is no reason for us to hate each other. But there are many of your co-religionists who hate us for not believing what you and they believe.
Also you only believe what you do because you have been brainwashed to so believe from childhood. But many of your former believers have managed to break free from their beliefs.
Jun 21 2011: '', but beneath the crust, the buckling creates a heavy, high-density "root" that holds the crust down LIKE AN ANCHOR''
Anchor.....Peg........you are lost.....
''uncommitted logical people''
The math ''miracle'' is not accepted by most Muslim scholars and Muslims.......
but Muslims were always the most committed logical people.....unless of course the likes of Avicenna you don't consider to be logical......I dare you to say that to any philosopher....
and my reply to your previous comments is over this comment that I am replying on.....so read it....sorry about that.
Jun 21 2011: @ J Ali ".when did I or any of the Islamic sources say that he (Peace be Upon Him) walked the Milky way in one night and return??"
OK I thought I read about that - but maybe I was mistaken. It wasnt the milky way. But he is supposed to have traveled from Mecca to Jerusalem and back in one night. And from Jerusalem was he not supposed to have ascended to heaven?
"If you didn't hate Islam so much you wouldn't have said that..........I could say the same thing about statements from scientists."
What has hate got to do with this? Except for the fact that you are so ready to hate anyone who rationally questions your beliefs. You can say anything you like about statements from scientists. Thats what science is about questioning and arguments, not blind belief.
"statements of a true loser......" Now now J Ali calm down.
@ J Ali "When did the Quran say the mountain areas are stable?? and was it even talking about earthquakes??"
Quran 21:31 "And We set in the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with them,.."
The mountains prevent the Earth from shaking according to the Quran.
@ J Ali "I have been brainwashed?! who brainwashed me?! that is really funny.."
No not funny. But as to who brainwashed you, who taught you Islam from childhood? They are the people who brainwashed you.
@ J Ali "do you really think God cares about the people who leave Islam??"
The Allah invented by Islam seems to care very much.
He tells Muslims to kill such people
Quran 4:89, 9:11-12, Bukhari (52:260), Bukhari (83:37), Bukhari (84:57), Bukhari (84:58), Bukhari (89:271), Bukhari (84:64-65), Abu Dawud (4346)
Jun 21 2011: His ascension to Heaven was with the soul......
''You can say anything you like about statements from scientists. ''
What I meant was a scientific statement which everyone agrees on.....and then I interpret it and say, you know what?' they didn't actually mean it.....
My parents would teach me about Islamic teachings and I would always question them and argue since I was young....I have studied Islam rationally myself....and I have reached the same conclusion as philosophers like Avicenna...who I keep mentioning, haha, but for a good reason.....because you think Muslims are stupid....
do you know how old I am? I'm only 15.....my parents should now be in the act of ''brainwashing'' me....I think of everything independently.....and FYI, Islam is probably the most religion that stands strongly against blind-following and copying.....I'd agree with you that most Muslims don't even understand their faith....but that's them, not Islam.....There are Muslims and then there is Islam.......I am not happy with what they do......some are so brainwashed that they kill innocent children.....do you think I am happy with that??
That is why Islam stood so strongly against blind-following and that is why so many great philosophers and scientists were Muslims......and it's not going to happen again for Muslims until they start thinking properly again.....From my reading of the Islamic Sources, the most annoyed person on todays Muslim is the Prophet Muhammed himself.......
In short, I think you are absolutely right that most religious people are brainwashed...thats probably why most religious (Muslims and non-Muslims too) people are crazy and weird..and I know many Muslim scholars who stand against this.......
as for the shaking earth , the word used in arabic is تميد which means slanting and leaning left and right......not shaking....i'm sorry about that poor translation.....of course shaking happens with slanting and leaning but the word used does not mean shake....
Jun 21 2011: both the verses you mentioned were in a special context and that is the context of war......We believe God doesn't have feelings and that every law of islam is for mankind's good and not God...because we believe God does not need anything..........Muslims can only kill non-Muslims in a time of war and in self-defence........or for crimes...like killing a human being.....
as for the Bukhari Hadiths and narrations.......The Islamic school I follow believes that only the Quran is 100% authentic........Narrations are totally accepted but they first have to be authentic.........Bukhari is only fully authentic in the Sunni sect while In My sect- Shia Islam- Hadiths may be authentic and they may be not.......
God tells us to kill and fight people who attack us and oppress us.....I think any one would accept that......Thats why you have countries at war now.....it is self defense which is obviously right and logical enough.......
But Islamic laws on war are far more advanced than laws today......If you want I can explain further but I think that would be outside this topic.....
As for Apostasy in Islam.....it is accepted in my sect.....but cannot be done by anyone on the street......it is done only in a majority Muslim country with a Just Muslim leader......and cannot be done by anyone........in our case the Just Ruler would be The prophet Muhammed and after him -in Shia Islam- his twelve successors.......it is considered to be an act of treason against the Islamic state and an act of war if done in public so that everyone knows about it.............so now if A Muslim leaves his religion in London for e.g....no Muslim can kill him.....or even touch him.......only in Muslim countries ruled by a Just Islamic Ruler after proof is given.....it might seem very strange for you to kill an apostate for being one......but if you were a Muslim and you understood what it means to leave Islam and how great a sin it was.....maybe you wouldn't.....
Jun 21 2011: @ J Ali "because you think Muslims are stupid." I never said that. Nor do I think that.
If you are indeed 15 then there is hope for you. But I am a sceptic. I look at the evidence and then judge with that what is probably correct or probably false. Science deals with probabilities.
There is hope for you only if you keep an open mind. By saying science will eventually prove the Quran to be correct is not keeping an open mind. You have reached your conclusion and now are seeking the proof.
Science sees the evidence then draws its conclusions. You are doing the opposite of that.
@ J Ali "That is why Islam stood so strongly against blind-following and that is why so many great philosophers and scientists were Muslims...."
Every bit of Islam demands blind faith and following. Islam did nothing to foster its "Golden Age" other than it conquering and cannibalising other civilisations like the Persian, Egyptian, Greek, Byzantine, Indian etc.
Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself.
This is what one ex-Muslim had to say about the great thinkers that Muslims bring out as showpieces:
What about the great minds of Islamic world, like Zakaria Razi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Khayyam, Ibn Arabbi, Al Muari and many more? Shouldn't we thank Islam for rearing these luminaries?
Jun 21 2011: Maybe you misunderstood me......I didn't ask science to prove the Quran.......Because the Quran is not only a book of science....it is a book of Guidance...The Quran itself is what proves itself right .....as for the scientific verses.....none have been proven to be wrong and the scientific verses of which there is no proof now....there may be in the future......that is what I meant......what I meant was that you cannot definitely say The Quran is wrong because there is no proof for this verse......someday there might be.........as for me as a Muslim, I believe the Quran is from God..and that it is not in conflict with science...because I believe God is all-knowledgable... therefore , after believing that the Quran is from God then i must believe that everything in it is correct...and that is why it must not be in conflict with science....and it isn't......some verses haven't been shown by science to be true.....but that doesn't mean we can dismiss the book...especially since we believe it is from God....
As for ''The Allah invented by Islam''
No one just said that This is Allah and we believe in him regardless of whether there is logical and philosophical proof or not.......
All our beliefs are based on philosophical and logical proof.....everything after that is based on those beliefs.....so that everything in the end is based on philosophical and logical proof.....Anything which is in conflict with science is not Islamic...I can tell you
Avicenna and Averroes accepted everything the Quran said about God........in fact they came up with brilliant philosophical proofs on God in light of what the Quran says on God........
I don't think anyone can say the likes of them made up there own God......there proofs and logic reached to that conclusion..and you have to admit that they were great, great philosophers and logicians.....and after studying the ideas of philosophies and religions....I conclude with them that Islam is correct....and that The Quran is from Go
Jun 21 2011: "We should thank Islam for rearing Khomeini, Bin Laden, Umar and Ali. They killed people inspired by Islam. The thinkers of Islamic world were almost all apostates. Ibn Sina did not believe in the immortality of the soul and did not believe in a god that cares about the creation. His concept of God was very much similar to that of Espinoza. He was attacked vehemently by Ghazali because of that. But he was a genius who started to teach medicine at the age of 20. His life was spared because he was much needed and because in those days we had tolerant governors who were more secular than religious. Khayyam was obviously an apostate as you can see from every robai that he composed. Hafiz memorized Quran before he reached the age of 15. But as you see there is no praise of Muhammad in his poetries when he became an adult and could think independently. Only a non-religious humanist would say: "Mei bekhor manbar besoozan, mardoom aazaari makon." (Drink and burn the pulpit but don't hurt people) This is totally opposite with Muhammad's instructions who prohibited drinking wine, used the pulpit and ordered killing the non-believers. Ar Razi spoke fearlessly against all the religions calling the Prophets disdainfully "Billy Goats" and liars. These truths have been kept hidden from us. We have been lied to constantly. First the Muslims persecuted these apostates and after their death they credited Islam with their great works and contributions to science and learning.
The reason the Golden Age in the Islamic world became possible was because the rulers in those days were more secular than religious and they tolerated the apostasy of the great minds who in turn contributed to science. "
And read here too if you are questioning
Jun 21 2011: Big Big lies..............I have studied Avicenna's works and Averroes too...Why would any one lie like that?!
As for Bin Laden and other Terrorists.......Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) was not a terrorist anyway...but thats something different........I don't like terrorists as I said earlier......and they aren't even Muslims.......
Ghazali attacked philosophy in general because he only accepted what hadiths said.....all hadiths even if they are not authentic.......where as the philosophers of Islam did not believe all Hadiths were correct......for example....Ghazali might believe in a God who has a body.....why? because a Hadith says so......
Whereas philosophers say that not all hadiths are correct.....that some are not authentic and that the prophet did not say them.........The Quran itself says that There is nothing like God and therefore we should disregard hadiths that say god has a body because it contradicts the Quran which is 100% authentic........
that was an example.......
Ibn Sina never did believe in an Espinoza God.......
I have read his books and studied them......a lot of the great proofs on Allah of the Quran given by Muslims today are given by Ibn Sina.....There is a whole school which accepts the proofs which prove the Quran right....HIkmah Mutaliyah.
I don't know what to say to lies........Nasir al Din al Tusi was a great Shia Philosopher and a student of Avicennian philosophy......All philosophical proofs mentioned in these philosophers books are accepted by the Quran......in fact these philosophers- because they were Muslims- accepted what the Quran said and then thought of it and afterwards gave philosophical proofs on what The Quran was saying....
one verse for example is
''There is nothing like Him''
42 11
Avicenna proved this in his books......
They can lie to people who don't know Avicenna well....but they can't lie to me.....whats the point of lying anyway.....it shows that they have to resort to lying.....
Jun 21 2011: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyám
Read what Hossein Nasr has to say about his Poems on Wine........they are not authentic....it is a well accepted fact between Muslim Scholars and Philosophers in this present time.......
Thats what I mean when I say that you should ask A Muslim on what He believes and on what Scholars said........
as an analogy : would you accept what Iran has to say about America and its presidents and leaders?
same thing here.......why would you accept what people who hate Islam have to say about it....its illogical.....ask Muslims what they believe and read the books of the Muslim scholars......
People like Ghazali and Razi were Sunni Muslim Scholars who just took any Hadith and accepted it even if it contradicted the Quran itself.......its a famous Muslim school called the Muhaditha......
whereas in Shia Islam the Hadiths are put to a test in whether they are in conflict with the Quran (which is the only Islamic source which is completely authentic) or not;;;;
and Logic is always used.........
Jun 21 2011: This is my last statement in this conversation. I had issued a challenge to produce just one verse in the Quran that clearly and unequivocally, without further explanation, stated one scientific fact.
@ J Ali "You want the Quran to give you formulas???
The Quran is not a book of Science...........The Quran gives you the fact and lets you think of it.......God is not a scientist...He is the all-knowing......you want to give E = mc^2 to Arabs of 1400 years earlier......That is really funny and quite ridiculous too...... I think I know that even if we give you the clearest verses you will still not accept them....because you are not looking for the truth.....you just want the Quran to be wrong.....The Quran Does not to give you formulas....it gives you what these formulas mean.....easier for humans to understand especially back then......"
I just gave the formulas as an example of what the Quran could have given as a clear scientific statement IF it was from an all knowing God as it claims.
If it had said something like water consists of two gases, that would have been acceptable also as revealing something that was not known at the time.
But all you and SR have been able to come up with is some verses which read literally are false, but claimed to reveal things like the Big Bang and the expanding Universe etc only after elaborate and torturous reasoning.
Thus it can be concluded that you have not been successful in meeting my challenge.
Goodnight and Auf Weidersehen, Au revoir.
Jun 21 2011: you can conclude that.....but only you.......I would conclude that I have shown you verses but you wouldn't accept.....
I don't really care then.......
Just read my comments well and my arguments......you didn't even answer the full comment...you would choose a part and answer it .....leaving the rest of it which implies that you do not even have an answer for it........probably searching sites which are anti-Islam
I answered all of your arguments.......you didn't answer back.......you just kept giving me links from Muslim-haters and telling me what I believe when your facts on Islam were totally wrong........
''only after elaborate and torturous reasoning.''
I gave the verse without explaining it because it was so clear.......and then you began claiming that it wasn't clear and that they were false and you kept going on....forcing me to answer your questions.....and i did....
I answered your challenge but you kept disagreeing...
every time I asked you to answer my questions you would run away and reply on something else......interpreting the verses in ridiculous fashion........
I can conclude that you lost this argument......but you are going to laugh just as I laughed at you claiming that we lost........maybe if you understood Arabic well this would have been much much easier....
so there really is no point......
I wish you the best of luck........and as I said before.....if you want to know the Quran...don't ask Muslim Haters.....be your own respondent......read it yourself....
''Then there is hope for you''
-Richard Dawson
Good Luck....
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Jun 21 2011: .
The Quran is a poetic book written by pre-scientific people who lived in a harsh desert-environment, and thus needed hard social rules for their survival.
We need to take a historic look at all religious books.
The rest is belief, which is the exact opposite of scientific reason.
I don't even see a grain of sand to begin a debate with, on this matter.
J AliJun 21 2011: ''Poetic book''
It's funny the way you just came in like that at the end of the conversation
on the Quran being poetic?? who told you?! do you even speak Arabic?
The Quran is nowhere neat poetry.....
It is a piece of literature that all arabs have accepted a long time ago that they could not match.....it is nothing like what they had.....
who did it come from?
an Illiterate man named Mohammed (PBUH) ........the facts in it are amazing.......the laws are too.....the philosophy of it is amazing...with the likes of Avicenna (who was also a great scientist) just bowed down to......
The challenge from the Quran remains.......bring one chapter like it.... in Arabic which no one will ever be able to reach....with all the arguments and facts......from an illiterate man......
As i have been saying over and over.......Islam is not in conflict with science, unlike other religions......Islam is with science.....because God created science.......
Look at the Golden Age of Muslim scientists and philosophers who accepted all the philosophy of Islam without doubt........
Islam and Muslims of the past literally gave you all the science you had and you advanced from there........and it is obvious how much Islam changed the world.....scientifically and more......
Show me one religion which supported science so much.......
''thus needed hard social rules for their survival''
Yeah, and then comes a man who changes literally every single thing in all of Arabia in 23 years.....in 23 years he had united all of Arabia......with great rules which are still unmatched today.......
It will be predominant one day in the world......and then all your atheism will be lost and you will become the greatest of losers.....
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May 26 2011: Dear Richard,
I agree. only some point:
a theory can be one hypothesis or a collection of more than one hypothesis. like Evolution that there are many hypotheses inside the theory of evolution.
theory is a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena and when all hypothesizes inside a theory are proven and all became "accepted hypothesis" then the theory becomes Natural Law.
for example:
hypothesis ---> accepted hypothesis (by testing in scientific method)
theory ----> law (if all hypothesizes inside theory are accepted)
then we can consider the law as a fact.
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May 27 2011: "Can we agree on those definitions?"
yes agree all but about theory needs some correction.
there are no much difference between hypothesis and theory. theory is a collection of hypothesis that usually some are accepted and some doubted.
"in modern science the term "theory", or "scientific theory" is generally understood to refer to a "PROPOSED" explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with scientific method. Such theories are preferably described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand, verify, and challenge (or "falsify") it."
usually theories change and develop during long times by research and finding new facts.
theories and hypothesizes inside theories are PROPOSED and can be false or true.
if I say evolution it is only a example for defining theory better. examples help to make better definition. I am not interested to discuss evolution here. there are other topics for it.
OK, I remove all them.
I agree every thing is created perfect. but disagree circle is perfect. religion never said circle is perfect. people interpret religious books as they like with no knowledge.
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May 27 2011: truth is what happen.
science is trying to understand and can predict nature behaviors. i.e
predicting what will happen.
if we find a law in nature we can predict some behaviors of nature using that law.
theories are the try of human for finding nature laws.
a theory is will become a law or a false propose after long of research. even longer than our age.
about science I agree we should not consider ant proposed answer as true before doing research and finding valid evidence.
I respect scientists. our welfare and technology is by them. but I worry about abuse of theories by materialists against God. specially when those materialists are also capitalist and have enough money to buy large media channels and control think of people.
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May 27 2011: so please say what is difference of theory and law (natural law)?
usually a theory is compound of assumptions and hypothesizes that during history and research some hypothesizes are found to be false and some true and step by step the theory develops to finally become a natural law.
for example assumptions of theory of BB:
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May 27 2011: we do not know what will happen in future or what happened in past.
so we make some hypotheses and test them using scientific method to know what will happen (prediction) or what happened in past (like start of universe).
but what really happened or will happen is truth that we are looking to know it.
about when sun rises we can see and measure it and we know truth about sunrise time.
"Usually it is in answer to a question - like a hypothesis."
truth is the correct answer that science is looking for it.
"And the truth is the actual shape of the Earth."
the actual shape of the Earth is true. (possible we do not find it until 1000 years later even with 1000 hypothesis all appearing true at a time during history)
"Will you agree with that definition and example?"
the first and second answer both are hypothesis.
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May 28 2011: examples are good but "The way Species actually change from one to another"
this is not a good example. because we do not know still if change in specie really happened or not. at least in last 300 years of research not observed.
about 1000 years I only said its possible.
I mean there is no guarantee when we find the correct reply.
"For example the shape of the Earth - We are very close to the truth and it has not taken that many hypotheses or that much time."
this took how many years?
this question existed from many years ago.
the Earth is Flat and the Earth is round (Spherical)? You have not answered this.
both are hypothesis. but second has more probably to be truth. because second is based on more evidences (observing by eye from space).
how much the level of certainty about a answer becomes more it is more near to truth.
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May 28 2011: the four step (question>hypothesis>theory>law>) is done by scientific method.
"Knowledge comes from the scientific method "
disagree. science comes from scientific method. knowledge is different of science.
I asked what is different of theory and natural law?
I think you are mixing theory and natural law.
about razor it is a tool useful in its own place. but harmful in wrong place. there are many anti-razors and it is not always working.
"Karl Popper
Karl Popper argues that a preference for simple theories need not appeal to practical or aesthetic considerations. Our preference for simplicity may be justified by its falsifiability criterion: We prefer simpler theories to more complex ones "because their empirical content is greater; and because they are better testable" (Popper 1992). The idea here is that a simple theory applies to more cases than a more complex one, and is thus more easily falsifiable. This is again comparing a simple theory to a more complex theory where both explain the data equally well."
"never use additional explanations when they are not necessary."
why? maybe true answer is the answer with more explanations. this makes me think scientists are lazy in research.
"I feel Wikipedia does not do a good job on the difference between a scientific Theory and a scientific Law. "
"It is too long and confusing."
its false because its long?
so all snakes are false?
about this is link it is correct mostly but II think is biased into Evolution and is not fair. and wants to prove evolution by sophistry.
the most important thing this like does not say is that a theory is a PROPOSED explanation.
and it does not mention the word "PROPOSED".
(please not my saying does not mean disagreeing evolution. I only mean this link is speaking biased about "theory" and "natural law". without care to what it is speaking about, evolution or other.)
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May 30 2011: Hello Richard,
"I did not say the definitions in Wikipedia were false"
sorry, I apologize.
"Wikipedia also says the same thing"
yes. it says theory "express" that is same as EXPOSED. any definition of theory should mention that a theory is not as certain as a natural law and is only a exposed (expressed) explain of a phenomena that can be developed and corrected.
"And "A law differs from a scientific theory in that it does not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena:""
I disagree this to some extent. a natural law explains phenomena. they explain. fundamental principle of science. I mean difference of Laws of science and scientific theory in the level of certainty.
please read only first lines of these links:
the four steps I said was not steps of hypothesis.
your 7 step is good and agreed.
"Also a theory must have many many tests without being falsified before it can become a theory."
please read this again. theory becomes theory?! I think you write late night. drink your coffee.
I mostly agree you. only I expect we have a a clear distinguish between Laws of science and scientific theory in the level of certainty.
Apr 26 2011: Can you give any example of these claimed predictions?
The Arabic world was an intellectual center for many centuries, up until about the Crusades. Understandably, the Islamic world closed themselves off at that time. They did not participate in the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment was an intellectual revolution that altered the way that post-Enlightenment cultures think about how the universe works and how that can be determined. Before the Enlightenment, the most widespread worldview was that the world acted according to supernatural forces, and the church was the source of information about this. The church at that time WAS science. Truth which contradicted their religious viewpoints was rejected as heresy, regardless of its evidence. With the Enlightenment, cultures came to realize that the world was learnable and that no appeal to the supernatural was necessary. For their everyday lives, they looked to science and reason instead of religion. They continued to look to religion for supernatural ideas, and ideas that science was not capable of addressing at the time.
The conflict between western cultures and some Islamic cultures is rooted in this. Large parts of the Islamic world has never undergone the Enlightenment. They continue to look to religion for an explanation about the world in their everyday life. In the west, we find it very hard to even comprehend how urgent and important things become when you, deep down, believe you are engaged in a supernatural war between good and evil. Without understanding this, it is difficult for the cultures to interact.
I have heard people say that the Koran predicted some things, but never seen a single example, so I can't speak to the specifics. However, if the things were impossible to know with learning, they would never have been learned. Because they have been learned through science, it proves that the ideas were and are knowable.
Apr 26 2011: some examples:
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May 17 2011: "-->what a miracle: he has sent down water from the sky? "
if you read carefully it says planets are in pair (male,female) and this is a miracle when said 1400 years ago. was at 1400 years ago any research on plants? (at time that Galilee was being killed because saying earth is round)
please read page carefully instead of reading part of first line.
"--> Really? "
if you know other person or scientist saying universe is expanding in 1400 years ago say his/her name.
"--> Yeap. I would assume the same thing happened to Mohammad otherwise how do you explain his marriage with so many wives."
you are talking rationally or you are befooling?
I replied before about marriages of Muhammad. except one all was old widows and each one had special reason. please first study them then say such things.
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May 22 2011: "yes even God needs a partner, a female god."
God does not have any creator.
if God need creator then it is limited and needs creation. so it is not God. God does not need any thing.
that verse says I created all things in pair. but God itself is not created. God is first of all firsts and end of all ends.
"magic is called miracle."
magic is like miracle.
there is a saying in Iran:
every walnut is round, but not every round is walnut.
please do more research about that.
I do not deny Vedas. also I do not accept them without research.
if we consider Vedas from God then God is the same as who said it in Koran. so they are the same.
"who? me or Koran? "
yourself know. please be rational in talk.
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May 23 2011: "a male God got only sperm. a female god is needed for Egg. "
God is not human and does not create by sex. it is father. not God.
"assertion. you don't have any proof."
what is God? unless it is not God. anything needs anything is not God. if God need wife or sex it is not God. it is animal.
"magic and miracle are one and the same."
please first know what is miracle and what is magic.
"i do deny Koran.|
"i have to be irrational because i'm dealing with an irrational subject."
you have free will.
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/88:21 -26
Apr 26 2011: who made Crusades were not real Muslim and christian. just their name was.
please do not Judge about Islam (=what is in Koran) by manner of Muslims.
"some Islamic cultures is rooted in this" 100% agreed.
please note Islam has nothing but Koran. all advantages of Islam is derived from Koran. all books you see from many many Islamic scientists like gaber or avecina is from Koran.
if now some countries are rooted in Islam. but they can not reserve Koran for themselves. you just need Koran to access to unlimited source of science and knowledge. nothing more but yourself decide and effort. Koran itself guide you and say you what to do and fills your heart from science and knowledge. (any kind of science you want including chemistry medicine or ...) Koran make herb to speak to you and plants say you O! Dustin this is my ability, I can treat brain censer or ... and all universe become in your hand and your eye and your control.
.you are right Muslims are lazy and just eat money of Oil and not research and wait for western scientists to discover science then they see it has been in Koran before and say: oh this is a miracle.
but if you research in Koran you can find many many predictions in Koran, not found by western (materialist) science yet.
sciense of Koran is lumine, not dark (materialist scientist)
please note every religion by a messenger has an expire date but Islam and Koran. what happens if you eat an expired date food?
Koran is in your hand:
Muhammad (peace on him):
"at judgment day I will sue my people in front of God and I will say to God: my Developer! Indeed my people made this Koran obsolete."
I want to know if examples claimed in http://www.quranmiracles.com/ can be considered as miracle or not?
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Apr 28 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
"Wouldn't it be a comfort to know there is no such thing?"
let me say a poem.
some one wanted to sell its home.
finally found a customer and said to customer:
if you make a rest room there and if make a yard there and of make kitchen there its will best home.
the customer said:
my brother, you are right, but I can not settle in "if".
all evidences and wisdom show Hell exist. the I believe a "if"?
"No person who has the slightest grounding in science would waste their time over it."
I think you are not claiming about that samples honest. please check them again.
also about which of that samples you have scientific qualification to have assessment?
what is your proficiency?
"centuries old"
yes Koran is for 1400 years ago. and this is Just miracle that an unread man can say scientific facts of today.
if you think you are a scientist please prove one word of Koran is false.
"That would be a miracle if true. "
be sure. Koran does such, but for who study Koran deep. not for who reject Koran with not reading it at least one time. this just 2 example of thousands example:
please say me how they 2 could say such amazing scientific facts and make such drugs and chemicals with no advanced laboratory of 20th century?
I request you to first watch this:
then read Koran once. then study parts of Koran related to your qualification then decide.
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Apr 28 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
first of all please define Islam.
Islam is what is in Koran. and mistake manner of Muslims does not define Islam.
I think you could not understand this QA if Ibn Sina. this QA is 100% correct and agreed.
meaning of this QA is this:
rational can understand positive and negative, but some times has error. (like map with some error and remedy book by some error).
"map with some misleading"="medical book with ailments "= rational
"A book of guidance"=Koran
"then you must have more knowledge than the author of the book"= then you should have knowledge more than rational of author of Koran (God).( that in real you do not have such knowledge more than knowledge of God". God is absolute knowledge.
"In that case consulting such a book is redundant."= now that your rational has some errors some times better to add the knowledge of God (Koran) to your rational to your rational do not have any error and your rational becomes complete and will have no error while adding Koran to your rational.
"If you know what is good and what is bad instinctively or through your rational thinking, why you need to consult any book?"= if your rational is complete and has no error at all (that in real is not so) so then you will not Koran. but now that in real your rational has error better to add absolute knowledge of Koran to it.
"Islam is superfluous for those who have rational ability" no human on earth has complete rational. all have some errors.
"misleading for those who do not have rational ability"
yes, right. but all human are rational but with some error. who do not have rational ability does not exist on earth.(except baby and bedlam).
as your defaults are false your result is false.
Koran has not any conflict with rational even one word and this prove Koran is not from human. can you say one?
Koran is to remove errors of rational. Koran was guide Persia poets and philosophers and scientists so they have no error even after such years. Koran is secret of Persia.
Apr 28 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
"I did not like what it said."
can you please say some example of that?
also please consider some times we do not like some thing and it is good for us or some times we do not like some things and it is bad for us.
if some thing you do not like is really bad then you are right.
for example maybe your child do not like go to school and likes to play all the time.
so do you accept your child do not go school and just play?
what you will say to such child?
"perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not"
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Apr 29 2011: Dear friend,
"Muhammad instructs his followers to scourge their wives if they are not obedient?"
I request you 1000 times and I am ready to do for you any work and even pay you money but just please do one thing:
"please do not say any thing ugly about any prophet of God, unless you are researched it and you are 100% ensured". Koran and Muhammad (peace on him) are the highest respectable things for a real Muslim. the mother, father, life, money and any thing else (but Allah) has no valuable for a Muslim against Koran and Muhammad (peace on him) and all are gifts to God if needed. there is a saying from Imam Ali (peace on him):
"the distance between true and lie is just four finger."
it means between your eye and your ear. what you see by your eye is true and what you hear is lie.
"Quran cannot be understood and need to be explained by experts"
first Koran has 2 parts: some clear and some not clear. at least you can use clear parts (almost Koran) with no need to tafseer (explain). there is an Persian poem:
"if all the water of ocean can not be drink............... so better to drink as much as thirst "
yes Koran needs tafseer. but this not means leaving it.
tafsir is for when you could understand Koran as you can and you want to reach deep meanings and predictions of Koran. be sure it takes years to you reach such level. i am sure you by your current knowledge can understand many things from Koran at least until 3 years. then you will need tafseer to learn more from Koran.
yes Koran needs tafseer. but who has qualification to tafseer Koran?
this is the most important problem and conflict between Muslims themselves too. do you think Koran itself has not replied it? sure Koran has replied. but has not mentioned the exact name of qualified interpretators because in that case it is easy to a cruel king in history collect all books from hand of people and burn them all and then distribute new version of Koran but by his own name.
Apr 29 2011: then God should send new prophet by new original book to people do not have any claim when God wants to use them as fuel of Hell:
but God wanted to do not send any other messenger after Muhammad (peace on him) and God said the Islam is complete religion and no need to send any other messenger. and God guaranteed not let any one change text of Koran and himself protect Koran from change:
then about who has qualification of tafseer. God said 5 sign for who has qualification of tafseer in Koran and if you know that signs and search for that person you will find that person is just one person at any time after death of messenger and if that person die or be killed then immediately another person will have that signs (by power of God the complete knowledge needed for tafseer appears in mind of that person).
one of that sign is this:
it says if you do not know so ask "people of the message". it do not say if you do not know what? it say general. so who is "people of the message" should can reply any question from anything even scientific questions or even you ask now how many fish is in my home? if you put this sign beside other 4 sign you will find that holey person.
also about doubts you said about (9 years daughter, scourge,...) I should say there is more than 500,000 of such doubts and all are replied clear as you Indeed will be satisfied there are not true. if I start to reply doubts here it will not be finished in near future.
Apr 29 2011: but just note:1- do not believe every thing you hear and you are not sure of that. 2- use searching on valid websites to find the reply of doubt and then use your rational and think and then decide by yourself. for example: http://www.al-islam.org/ and http://www.islamquest.com/.
if you ask reply of a doubt from who is despiteful against Muhammad (peace on him) he will not give you a true reply.
also about other signs of qualified interpreter of Koran as God said I expect you to first:
1- show me you are really and only seeking truth and do not have other intend and it can be showed by apologizing Muhammad (peace on him) (not me, I not need any respect from any human) for what you said about him while you are not sure.
2- read and understand well an carefully about pond of Khumm happening.
and then read this:
then I can continue about tafseer. without knowing that facts talk will be useless.
May 2 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
"he tells them to kill the unbelievers wherever they find them?"
yes there are wars, but who started war?
Islam and Koran are not all killing.
please look:
freedom of think and believe:
common values, intead of war
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:64 (People of the Scripture=peoples who have holy book from God)
no discrimination
peaceful talk
accepting peace
other religions
accepting peace
hoping peace
marrage toother religions
Comment deleted
Apr 30 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
those are not your words but when you spread words of a liar you become his partner.
yes Islam has such things but not as you think as you say Islam and Muhammed are nothing but cruel. so what are Persia poems you say they are full of description of Muhammad and Allah and Islam.
do not think you are hearing while not research and think?
as I said there is more than 500,000 such doubts about Islam and all is replied. and can be found o internet by simple search. I do not know you leave so many beautiful aspects of Koran and Islam and stick on some ugly lies from some despiteful people without research.
if you like poem there is an interesting saying that meaning is:
"some people are like housefly, they leave all flowers and go sit on a special smelly thing"
but because you like OK. I start replying doubts. just please note these are just very short reply and just some note and if you really want truth yourself can research more for each doubt there is many historical research done available. also yourself can research in history and Koran.
you just heard scourge but why you not see these:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:19 live with them in kindness
messenger always said to Muslims hitting their wives: do not hit them.
you just say scourge. but scourge by what? by a hard wood?
it is fun rather than scourge. also it has many terms and is just in special situations. I never seen such thing during all my life. its very rare.
after that ayah God said: but if you forgive her mistake it is better in view of God.
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/24:2 its is kind of social punishment.
if need more details please let me know.
Apr 30 2011: Dear friend,
let me reply doubts one by one. any reply is long
about 9 years daughter:
0- first wife of messenger was Khadije and messenger lived with her happy life alone for near 25 years and had no other wife until death of Khadije and new wife was after death of Khadije . death of Khadije was very very hard for messenger and he nevery could be happy after Khadije and said many lovely sayings about Khadije. Khadije was the first woman Muslim.
1- she was wife of messenger and they had happy life until end of life of messenger.
2-messenger many times insisted that he not want to marry she.
3-her father was a top political man and insisted his girl marry messenger
4- if messenger not accepted there would become bad conditions and maybe internal war.
5- her age at marriage is mentioned in different historical books from 6-25 years. but real age was 15 years as historical researches and evidences show.
6-it was just a formal marriage and there was not any sex until some years.
7-it was just a political marriage.
8- she was not from war. she was daughter of a top Muslim politician man.
9-at warm weather body growth rate of girls is more quick then other weather.
10-humans at 1400 years ago had larger bodies and became adult sooner.
11-at that time marriage at 54 was not an unusual manner and society accepted it.
12- you can not compare it by ethics of your current society.
above are just short replies and if interested there is very much detailed evidences for that easily could found on internet. but from valid source.
copying doubts while nothing knowing about them is not way of reaching truth.
there is 500,000 doubt about Koran and Islam and Muhammad. do you need them to copy paste them here?
also do not forget that poem:
"some people are like housefly, they leave all flowers and go sit on a special smelly thing"
is not anything beautiful about Koran in internet?
all Persian big poets were nothing without Kora
Comment deleted
May 11 2011: I have run out of thumbs ups for you for today. LOL This has been fabulous reading. I'm not sure which impresses me more. Your patient, elegant volley or S.R. Ahmadi's patient tenacity.
That said... The fact that this conversation is necessary is baffling to me. To understand, one must never hold a belief so dear that it cannot be changed by evidence to the contrary.
Comment deleted
Apr 30 2011: Sina said all these? or just about rational errors? if Sina said all these then what is refrence?
I read but let me reply one by one. I do not know why not research before saying them.
do you really know Sina? he was Muslim and all he had was from Koran and messenger and was nothing without them. then he say such ugly things about his messenger?
Comment deleted
May 1 2011: 1- relevence: she was not from war.
2-because unity of muslims.
3-read below link.
All evidences are in historical books.
"Not books written in the 20th and 21st centuries."
right, and this is the exact reason for the exact age of Ayeshe is not clear.
books are written later years based of sayings of valid followers and valid people.
Arabs has very strong memory. amazing.
you sat not books written, but how you use Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tabari?
the books you say are refrences. have you read them or just copy paste Bukhari 5:234?
can you copy here some of sayings from that books here? are you sure who said you these numbers really know what are these numbers or just use numbers to show his text is valid? I do not know that books exact. but I think they are valid. but usually there is some erros in such boosk. they are written many years later based on sayings passed in generations.
if you really want to know valid references and evidences so they are:
Ibn Ghatibe:Ayeshe died at 70 years old at year 57 or 58 hijri. so she was born ar year 1 or 2 after Hijrat.
it is written in history marriage date of ayeshe was 1 month after death of Khadije.
Khadije died at ramazan of year 1 hijri.
this is long detailed historical analysis and I am some busy.
please try to this Google translated valid analytical text. I think there is at least 50 valid reference. ten please let me know your comment if not convinced.
"No one said she was. So what."
but you said:
"9-year-old child or women captured in war?"
"Body may grow but child remains a child"
if body is adult it is not child even age is small. body organs are important. not age. you do not know girls in warm countries.
"What is a marriageable age for girls in your country today?"
age not important. growth important.
still marriage at 54 is not bad. why we should follow you?
May 1 2011: marriage at 54 is not bad. why an aged man should live alone? because you say?
"you can not compare it by ethics of your current society. The Quran was supposed to set high ethics for all mankind for all time. If it cannot match our ethics how can it be divine?"
the problem is your society costumes. not Koran.
people should adapt their customs by Koran. not Koran what people want. this is religion. religion is for correcting false behaviors of human.
Why should there be so many "smelly things" in the Quran?"
its not really smelly. you think it is smelly. by research all become clear. what you hear is lie ad what you see by your eyes are true. if you did not see some thing by your eyes do not speak about them assured.
even if they are really smelly(impossible) do not you see anything beautifull in Koran?
is not it better to open your eyes?
thats nothing but lie.
"We should thank Islam for rearing Khomeini, Bin Laden, Umar and Ali. They killed people inspired by Islam. "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please look ate date of Khomeini and those (sina,...)
there is thousand years difference.
Khomeini has just died 22 years ago
"The thinkers of Islamic world were almost all apostates."
lie. they were real believer. all their poems are full of religion and love of God and Islam and love of Muhammad (peace on him)
show at least one poem of them proving this lie.
"Ibn Sina did not believe in the immortality of the soul and..."
Sina was a great philosopher has many philosophical sayings and not all are his beliefs. they are philosophical talks. not beliefs.
"He was attacked vehemently by... "
Islam is full of such talks between scientists while they are friends.
"Only a non-religious humanist would say: "Mei bekhor manbar besoozan, mardoom aazaari makon." (Drink and burn the pulpit but don't hurt people) "
oh ......writer. (
this is not alcohol. this is love of G
May 1 2011: cont.
Drink: know God by love and Intuition and by seeing of heart and become dissolved in love of God.
burn the pulpit: the best way of knowing and vising God is by Love, when you love God then he loves you and then show you himself and you see him direct and no need to go to schools and read books to know God. just love God and you see him. burn means leave the classroom and just love God.
please note this is poem. not commands of a commander to soldiers..
they were full philosopher and at last found that Love and Intuition of God is better than philosophy so said that poem. it not mean school is bad. it means only philosophy makes you blind.
"Muslims persecuted these apostates "
what pressure?
"because the rulers in those days were more secular "
great lie. Iran had Golden ages because Iranians rejected Arabs attacks but Absorbed Koran. All Iranians have is from Koran. also rules were Islamic.
Islam is the best supporter of science.
did you know who wrote the first Arabic language grammar book ever? an Iranian! (language of Iran is not Arabic and is Persian(Farsi))
oh secular rules!!!!!!!!!!!!! really nice joke. thanks,
never seen a big liar such as
I am sure his home is in fire of Hell for ever. for unlimited years because its lies. ( unless God forgive him/her)
there is at least 300 ayah in Koran promising very hard punishment for liars.
May 17 2011: "what a joke! Allah has increased their disease?"
it means Allah helps to all good and evil people equal because he is merciful to all equal (but only in life of world), his helps are: eye, ear, leg, hand, think, wisdom, time, food, rest, wife, cloth, water, air, sun, moon, animals, rain, planets and any thing you have. and all such helps are equal for all people.
then if you select any way for life, God helps you.
if you select a way God disagree it, you make your heart sick and then God increased their disease by helping you to do more evil deeds.
each evil deed make a black point on heart and little by little all heart becomes black. when heart becomes black then heart dies and when heart die it has such results:
1- the tear do not flow any more
2- human does not hear to truth and do any thing he likes
3- can not understand truth
4- Satan control him like a rider on a hours.
this is meaning of increased their disease. it is joke or truth?
"Read Buddhist philosophy for enlightment."
I agree some parts of Buddhist ad disagree some parts. but totally I think Buddhist is not the way of God and will finish into Hell.
Buddhist people can do some extra ordinary doings because they harm body and their soul have some powers. but this not mean entering Heave. Heaven has some special easy terms and not need doing such works by body with no value at Judgement day when balance sheet of deeds are appeared for each human.
deeds are valued according Koran instructions, not Buddhist instructions.
the benefit of Buddhist is limited to this world.
"i want to have a good laugh"
"Allah curses?"
yes, when a human select the way of Satan by his free will and go to this way and go fat from straight way of God then the do much evil deeds and their heart becomes black and then God curses them.
they are cursed by their own select (free will). they themselves selected to be cursed by free will, doing evil deeds, but can return before death.
May 22 2011: Hi Iqbal,
"This Allah is a big joker."
proof? if you think some thing is joke then it is joke really? when Galileo said earth is round it was like a joke for simple people.
"Reading evil books by Satan(Allah) sure guide you to hell."
this is your idea and God will Judge us.
"This Satan is nobody but Allah. "
do you believe in Satan at all?
what is Satan in your view?
May 23 2011: "thats your idea."
you have free will.
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/88:21 -26
Comment deleted
May 2 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
you should know some facts about books you say:
they are not 100% valid and have some errors.
at time of messenger book was written but not on paper. books were written on skin of animals.
but most current books are written from near 200 years after messenger and at that time the priority was protecting sayings and they wrote books with not enough research on validity. but as time passed and also today different historical researches show error sayings.
Bukhari filtered valid sayings and wrote than in his book. but Ibn Hajar Asghalani says I did not check all what I wrote to be valid and some are not checked. I not consider that book complete valid. there are better books.
2- I do not know the the text of website you link is the same as the book or not.
3- th Bukhari book has distortions during different publishes in years. for example here is one saying in 3 different publish during years. the first is most old publish.
the google translated text is a very valid deep comprehensive research abut age of Aisha. it used many valid references and finally says the age of Aisha at marriage was 15 years.
there is tens of valid references. you mention one or two book. but that research used many. please check that references at evidences you need. if we want to discuss about this matter is very detailed and long. please accept me that age of Aisha was 15 at marriage. if you really want to know that and the age of Aisha is very important for you you should start study and research. not just one book. as I said the age of aisha at marriage is not clear and different books say different ages. but research show it has been 15.
even if (I disagree) the age has been 9, at warm desert places the growth of girls are very quick and they become adult soon. even now there is some city in Iran with such condition.
this is a news for some months
May 2 2011: this is a news for some months ago in Iran:
under 10 years marriage right now is doing in some warm weather cities of Iran in Hormozgan providence.
(((the adult body is important for marriage, not age.)))
"OR means two separate things."
you are right, I did not see OR.
"This is rubbish "
why say that. please check archaeology findings.
please read again that google translated link for real age of aisha.
"Unfortunately your morals because of your firm belief that everything that Muhammad did, the Quran and Hadiths say are perfect, are very immoral."
for Quran, OK. that's right, no doubt Quran is all equal to truth. if there is problems is for misunderstandings from Quran.
but about hadith you are right there is some errors between them and we read them by caution. there is a rule for reading hadith:"if any hadith had conflict with Quran, throw it on wall"
if you can disprove one word of Quran then we accept it is not perfect.
abstained from fighting during certain holy months of the year. They also considered Mecca to be a holy city and did not make war against it. An adopted son's wife was deemed to be a daughter in law and they would not marry her
May 2 2011: "The Prophet violated all of these rules..."
prophet said: any old social rule has no conflict with Quran is welcome and we agree it, and if has conflict we disagree it.
all them "For example, they abstained from fighting during certain holy months of the year. They also considered Mecca to be a holy city and did not make war against it. An adopted son's wife was deemed to be a daughter in law and they would not marry her. Also it was customary that close friends made a pact of brotherhood and considered each other as true brothers. They would not lie."
all were respected by prophet but "deemed to be a daughter in law" that she is not druthers in law.
why you say "The Prophet violated all of these rules"?
do you have evidence? this is lie.
another point the first marriage of prophet was at age of 25 with a woman by age 40. is it possible such man look for small daughter for sex? so why he did not select his first wife a young daughter?
brother, ayahs was not girl and was adult and it was an political marriage prophet did it to increase unity of separate Arab tribes and make then unit Islam community. while aisha was not small.
"You claim that Muhammad did not want to marry Aisha. That he refused many times. You claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. "
some say abubakr insisted for his daughter for political relations by prophet(strong) and some say messenger asked(weak). but there is no doubt prophet had no sex with any not adult daughter. Indeed she has been adult. not important what age.
better to talk on Koran. not unclear and uncertain and contradict historical writings.
Koran has many beautiful wonders and I not want to waste time on what really happened or not happened in history. prophet had hundreds of thousands of beautiful sayings. why discuss on such things? he said:
"if a sapling is in your hand and one day is left to end of world, certainly implant it
Comment deleted
May 22 2011: Iqbal: "He is going to sue people?"
yes. his own people (Muslims). not for money. for that his people did not care about Koran and left Koran obsolete.
"i was just thinking why would a 25 yr old man marry 40 yr old woman?"
it was asked by Khadije (first wife of prophet) and she wanted him very much and send some people to ask him marriage him and he accepted.
Khadije was a well know trader and had much wealth and when heard about Muhmmad (peace on him) from one of her servants loved Muhammad and as a reward made that servant free.
at that time only there existed 3 Muslim on earth:
1- Muhammad
2- Ali
3- Khadije
(peace on them)
she accepted Muhammad (peace on him) by think and for his saying and married him and became the 3rth Muslim and first woman Muslim in earth.
for many time those 3 were the only Muslims in people and people befooled them. but they prayed God alone with no care to befools of people.
Muhammad (peace on him) had not enough money to marrage and was working before marriage. but when she wanted then he accepted.
he had life with Khadije until death of Khadije and he saied many lovely sayings about Khadijah and always said I did not see never any woman like Khadije.
no plan. he had not money for marriage. and Khadijah herself wanted marriage him.
Comment deleted
May 23 2011: "is it? i thought its a no 1 religion in the world."
God is not looking for majority.
few real believers are enough for knowing God.
"doesn't require to have many wives for whatever reason."
God ordered him to have 9 wives and each was for special reason and each had a lesson for peoples. and them all unless one were old windows and prophet married them when he was aged. Indeed those marriages were not for enjoy.
why you do not study about his marriages to know real reasons of each?
Jim Moonan 50+Jun 20 2011: SR -After reading so many of your responses on such a very narrow scope of interest (I've never seen you commenting on any other issue other than god and religion) I am struck by your dichotomy.
I assume you've heard of the phrase, "persecution complex".
And I also assume you've heard of the phrase, "superiority complex".
To me, you alternate between the two.
You've got to get over both of them. Travel. Do something outside your comfort zone. Spend a solid month glued to the hip of a tibetan buddhist. Hang out with a woman. Do something to shake yourself awake.
Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.
Jun 20 2011: "I've never seen you commenting on any other issue other than god and religion"
please do not prejudice. first you only see my TED aspect. second I accept certain science (not hypothesis) and rational argument and certain history and anything with logic and wisdom. please do not prejudice. also I accept I have problems and I am not perfect. I am sorry for my mistakes. my evils are more than my goods.
"To me, you alternate between the two."
thanks. I checked both your links. I hope they help me. I consider your suggests. also I am married. you mean hanging out with other woman?
also I ask please check some ideas of people about prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and also other prophets:
Jonny GreenJun 17 2011: I was brought up Jewish and believed many different things which upon becoming an independent minded person I discovered to be untrue (biblical history etc) and as a result I am now a firm atheist.
I feel SR that you need to look at the Koran without your religious bias getting in the way, as I do now when it comes to Jewish literature and Scripture. Believing that the Koran "predicted" scientific fact is not only unrealistic, but also a good example of how data can be manipulated to fit a cause.
Other examples of this phenomenon are the bible codes, which allegedly prove that the bible predict events that have happened after it's writing (such as 9/11).
With such a large book with so many letters, it is highly likely that by using certain mathematical formulae it would be possible to find words and even paragraphs, which allegedly "prove" anything! I refer you back to Richard Dawson's mentioning of the Infinite monkeys/typewriters analogy.
The fact of the matter is, that using the Koran, you cannot say to any of us that, "X will be discovered in the future (lets say a complete understanding of gravity) and here is paragraph Y that proves it will happen that way". Maybe in the future when we have that knowledge somebody will look back through the Koran to find a paragraph of metaphor that suits the theory, but that will in no way be proof that the Koran explain gravity!
"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." (Hebrews 11:3)
This quote here is not proof that the bible predicts atomic structure or the presence of tiny particles, it is simply a metaphor referring to the belief that God created the world (by the word of God) and that God (and indeed his words) are invisible to the normal person!
I fear that in the future you will see the folly of your beliefs! But you are entitled to them nonetheless!
Richard D you are a beacon of reason and logic!
Jun 18 2011: Dear Jonny Green,
"I feel SR that you need to look at the Koran without your religious bias getting in the way"
I try.
I do not consider today Bible and Torah original. they are deviated and changed in text.
I am speaking about Koran.
if you can disprove Koran is not a miracle please show your argument by rational proof or accepted scientific fact (not hypothesis) and if can not I do not what you mean by saying these comments.
Jun 19 2011: You've managed to disprove the Koran many times for us while we just sat back and looked at you struggle to get one verse that predicted anything. It was fun. I especially loved that passage in that first link you sent us where the Koran predicts that atoms are the smallest particle in existence. I guess we built all those particle colliders for nothing.
Jun 19 2011: Actually it's just a mistake those idiots at quranmiracles.com made (probably because their science is lousy, but I guess we've already discussed the fact this website is awful so let's move on): http://www.quranmiracles.com/atom-and-subatomic-particles/
Anyway, please respond to the big thread Richard and I have written about your so called lowest land.
Jun 19 2011: ''Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them?'' 21:30
Big Bang.....
''With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof. "
The expanding universe......
now these are just two scientific statements in the Quran......
But I just want to say one thing, The Quran is not a book of Science......it is a book of guidance to God......which means it may guide through science or through anything else which may lead to God......
with that said, there are many verses in the Quran which are scientific and which have been proved by science today......but we cannot just bring up any verse and say it is scientific.....some are on science and some are not, they are more deeper than science.......
when we mention these verses, we have to explain them clearly from someone who understands arabic very well....because translations are not the most accurate and can sometimes be vague......
What I recommend for anyone who wants to know the Quran is to read it very well, alone and then see what it is trying to say........
you can't just bring up lists of so-called inaccuracies in the Quran without explanation and understanding......
some people just read vague translations and then get the false conclusion that the Quran is scientifically false.......Read the Quran in Arabic...if you can.....there can be no translation of the Quran because then it will be confusing and it will lose meaning........thats why I think commentaries of the Quran in english can be used....but only through thought and contemplation, rationally.....not just assumptions and presumptions.....
Muslims believe The Quran is a miracle in everything.....not just science.......if you want to read about science then read science books.... If you want to read about why we exist and what our goal is, if you want to be guided read the Quran.....
Jun 19 2011: Oh please. That is weak. Do you seriously think that these are seriously credible examples? Also if you want to argue that the holes that we poke are flawed because we can't speak Arabic (I'd like to point out it's holes we poke in what S.R claims is in the Quran rather than our interpretation of it), you're also going to have to concede that you can't derive scientific facts without knowing the Arabic too.
We know what Muslims believe, but the question isn't "Do Muslims believe the Koran is a scientific miracle" it's "is Koran scientifically a miracle?"
Jun 19 2011: Could they be any clearer.....please?? you are the one who is weak....you want it to be in scientific terms which were made probably a hundred or more years ago.....do you know how old the Quran is?
1432 years........what do you want it to say??? the earth and heavens i.e. the universe were joined as one united piece.....what else do you want it to say...it's a book for all ages...it wants to simplify it for that time.........again, you are the weak one......
We are expanding space....again, can it be any clearer?!
you did not say why they are weak examples,when they are so clear......just tell me why?
2. I was talking of the Quran as a whole........you can't understand it fully if you just read vague translations...you need a commentary with it too.....and you also cannot read what atheists say of the Quran or what Christians say about the Quran without consulting the Quran itself in Arabic and english commentary if you want.......
Please, what holes did you poke?? I didn't say I agree with all of what SR was saying.....read my comment...i clearly said that we can't make every verse in the Quran scientific.........most of the old commentators of the Quran never even mentioned most of these scientific verses meaning...probably because they didn't understand them yet or because the Quran wasn't even talking about science at all.........thats what I mean by when I say we as Muslims should not make every verse scientific..and thats what our open minded scholars have said countless numbers of times....only that which is clearly scientific like the two verses I gave you........The Quran, as I said, is a book of Guidance not a book of science...it may have scientific verses....many in fact but not all of the verses talk about science...most talk of a being above all science......God......
You won't poke anything in the Quran until you read it yourself....and see its actual meaning for yourself......you can't just say it's weak....
It is a miracle for everyone.
Jun 9 2011: The Koran scientifically shoots itself in the foot. For that matter, anything that mentions Genesis or the story of the Ark. The miracle of our era is if you stopped flooding TED with open-ended questions and debates about Islam that aren't even attempting to be unbiased and maybe focused on one topic. Branch out into other subjects too. This is boring.
It is my sincere opinion that people who start open-ended conversations incessantly often think they're much more interesting than they truly are.
Give me all the so called scientific facts (why aren't they in your description, do your part!) of the Koran, I'll show you how they are so obviously guesswork or false or both.
These questions are pointless because you've made up your mind and won't concede anything. What's the bloody point? Trying to convert us? Your stubbornness is only convincing yourself mate.
Jun 9 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
you are right. I added some lines to topic. but I think you have not read the conversations here.
I strongly claim Koran is the alive miracle of our era. in any aspect including.
"Branch out into other subjects too."
can you please recommend some subjects?
"Give me all the so called scientific facts (why aren't they in your description, do your part!) of the Koran, I'll show you how they are so obviously guesswork or false or both."
every day new scientific facts are discovered from Koran. but for example please look:
I ask please read at least few of them carefully.
"These questions are pointless because you've made up your mind"
the point is clear: is Koran the miracle of our era or not? [by evidence and proof]
yes. but you can change my mind by showing valid evidences and proofs. but I do not change my mind by some hypothesis or some guess or some misinterpretations. only valid rational or historical proofs and evidences.
"What's the bloody point? Trying to convert us? "
no. my goal is no converting. I want to spread truth about Koran. also checking and reviewing and updating myself beliefs. converting is not my job. people themselves have enough wisdom and can decide based on wisdom any option is better. at internet era the information and knowledge can be found easy and by some thinking truth can be found. converting people was for time that people has no knowledge and some people converted them by abuse of ignorance of people. converting based on ignorance of peoples not working now a days.
"Your stubbornness is only convincing yourself mate."
please show your proofs and rational arguments instead.
Jun 9 2011: Have you read the entries on that site? It reeks of stupid:
It tries to reconciles vagueness of words with actual scientific discoveries that obviously have no relation whatsoever. You really have to be so up your own crap to accept any of this as science. Not to mention that the people who made the website themselves aren't the most scientifically literate people which makes for some really funny mistakes. The atom is the smallest particle? No no no. What about neutron, protons and electrons? What about quarks? Also the Big Crunch is not going to happen. The current models predict an unending expansion and heat death. Quick! Grab your Koran and find some passage that can vaguely sound like science to an idiot!
I love the "heavens not supported by pillars" one. It should get the "no shit Sherlock" award for pointing out the godddamn obvious!
Jun 10 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
I agree you about that site.
actually I should find English site to show you and most good sites are not English. so your suggest is good. I study and find some suitable cases and write in this topic. OK? please comment on them.
"It should get the "no shit Sherlock" award for pointing out the godddamn obvious!"
please explain this. I do not understand complicated English sentences.
Jun 13 2011: "there are no good English sites about the scientific miracles of the Koran"
I agree you.
also there is not good Arabic or Persian websites for that.
only people who has personal research interest can find good information about Koran and its miracles. I use many different sources including books/internet/speeches/wiki ,... to find some facts.
no single good website I know.
but also they are not absolutely useless.
Jun 13 2011: But you keep quoting that one website. You are missing the point. You are trying to prove the Quran right somehow or the other - that is not the way of science.
"At Wikipedia, Islam-related articles are severely compromised by Muslim editors. An example of this is a 2010 incident where an editor with over 67,000 edits was caught intentionaly inserting false information into articles.
Jagged 85 is the main contributor to the many inaccurate Islam/Science/Golden Age articles which are still being copied and pasted all over the internet by Muslims, and more than 20% of Wikipedia's "Timeline of historic inventions" was provided by him.
With contributions to over 8,100 separate articles, it is unlikely that all of Jagged 85's edits will ever be fixed. And even if they were, these Wikipedia articles have already been reproduced all over the net by other sites which use Wikipedia as a source."
Jun 13 2011: "But you keep quoting that one website. "
you mean me? what website?
"that is not the way of science."
you please offer a standard way for this topic. I think if some one can prove a scientific error in Kora it is enough. is this a good way?
"An example of this is a 2010 incident where an editor with over 67,000 edits was caught intentionaly inserting false information into articles."
what is the relation to topic? I agree Wikipedia is not 100% valid.
although that website seems biased and anti-Islam rather than a true wiki. but It is clear many Muslims are not true Muslims and I always say please distinguish Muslim and Islam. Muslims has many mistakes but this does not mean Islam has errors. Koran has no error in any aspect.
Jun 13 2011: please leave those websites and lets use our power of research and wisdom. TED is a useful tool to decide about Koran. I believe Koran is a miracle and if you can participate to prove or disprove it you are welcomed. even if all websites have low quality still it does not mean that Koran is not miracle. it only means that the Muslims making those websites are not expert people and perhaps lazy people in research and website management.
both me and you have enough rational power and wisdom to can understand by our self that if Koran is miracle or not out of what websites say.
perhaps all websites are liar.
but we as a human have the duty to seek and find truth and at least it is possible that truth be found in Koran.
so each human because is a human as the duty to decide about this that if Koran is from God or not?
I said to myself if none of those western people claiming have much science could prove Koran has errors so I doubt about my beliefs about God. and if not so I become certain about myself beliefs about God (Allah) and Koran.
if Allah exist and if Koran is really is from Allah so Koran should not have any error. because God has absolute knowledge.
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Jun 20 2011: Dear Jim,
"The only people who think this is true are people who are already committed to believing the Koran is true."
are you sure?
about the link what is mistake?
"It is easily explained as a coincidence. "
please note is is not only one or two case. many of such case are in Koran. all are coincidence?
what about this one:?
"humans started with a single man and woman "
do you have any evidence to disprove it?
please note other humans existed before Adam and Eve.
"When seen through the lens of our current knowledge, it only makes sense to classify these beliefs as myths with no bearing in science."
please distinguish church beliefs and Koran beliefs. and show your evidence. you only claim.
Jim Moonan 50+Jun 19 2011: SR - please find it in your heart and mind to believe that your beliefs are not to be measured against others; that others will believe something to be different and that does not make them any more or less better than you; that you are human and therefore prone to being wrong; that the ultimate human attribute is not to become rigid/static, but to change and learn; that there are other realities than yours that deserve your respect; that to declare the torah and the bible to be inferior to any other book that claims to be the word of god is to declare yourself superior to others who are seeking the same answers; that you and I are products of our experiences; that there is much more to life than who may have created it and much more to life than knowing why we are here.
Come on SR. Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.
Jun 19 2011: "you are human and therefore prone to being wrong"
agree about myself. but I disagree Koran has even one error.
about bible and torah I said they are partially deciated.
God only sent one bible and torah to 2 prophets.
but how many books are old testimonials? I think they are 39 books. all are from God? or written more than 1000 years after death of Moses (PBUH)?
also bible do you agree at time that Jesus (PBUH) disappeared all bibles were collected from people by church? and until year 170 there was no bible in hand of people. it means people had no bible at least for 50 years and then church made 4 different version of bible (not same as the original bible at time of life of prophet).
do you agree?
Koran is completely different and only one text of Koran exist and there is no doubt that today text of Koran is exact same as what said by prophet word by word.
please explain how belief is measurable.
Jason Kather 10+Jun 11 2011: Wikipedia has the following to say about Taqiyya---"The practice of concealing one's beliefs in dangerous circumstances originates in the Qur'an, which deems blameless those who disguise their beliefs in such cases. The practice of taqiyya in difficult circumstances is considered legitimate by Muslims of various sects. Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture"
Now, using the following quote from our exchange: " "Did the Koran make a case for the justification of slavery?"
No, please leave what websites say and leave any prejudice and show your own evidence for that. ", I have to assume that you are using the smoke and mirrors technique in your argument. Does the Koran not give instruction on how to clothe, feed, treat, etc. a slave? Does the Koran not say that slaves may only be taken from conquered enemies of Islam? Does the Koran not say that children of slaves shall be slaves? Explain verse 23:5-6 of Sura and how it clearly legalizes sex with slave girls.
I will not argue the science of the Koran with you because I find the "science" that you use to be extremely flawed. I mentioned before that any book in which slavery is justified can not be the "perfect word of God". No grey area here.
Do not say that one must study the Koran and have it taught to the by Imams before questioning it. If it is a perfect book, the answers to all questions should be easy. I feel the only miracle of the Koran is that so many people believe what it says.
One more question for you... Is it possible that some smart old rich white guys were pulling Mohammed's puppet strings from the beginning? Could these same men have written the Koran using what limited information they had at the time and stealing bits and pieces of other religions in the process? Not asking if they did, just asking if it is possible.
Jason Kather 10+Jun 12 2011: " "Did the Koran make a case for the justification of slavery?"No, please leave what websites say and leave any prejudice and show your own evidence for that."
I feel that you are practicing Taqiyya in your response to my question. You claim that the Koran did not justify slavery. I feel this is an outright lie. Does the Koran not give instruction on how to clothe, feed, treat, etc. a slave? Does the Koran not say that slaves may only be taken from conquered enemies of Islam? Does the Koran not say that children of slaves shall be slaves? Explain verse 23:5-6 of Sura and how it clearly legalizes sex with slave girls.
Can the "perfect word of God" say that it is okay to own human beings as slaves? I believe the answer is no, therefore I believe the Koran is not the "perfect word of God".
Is it possible that the Koran was written by men and these men used their intelligence and Mohammed's charisma and might to accomplish their goals? The answer has to be that it is possible. The Koran is not perfect. There are many contradictions as you yourself have admitted to one in this very debate. You told Richard to not use the verses he was using to say that the Earth was flat because those verses could be taken to mean that the earth was flat, but others said it wasn't. Even the verses you suggested say to me that the earth is flat. Please read the post that you say was confusing along with this reply before you comment.
Jason Kather 10+
Jun 14 2011: Dear Jason Kather,
please note what is the meaning of slavery in Islam. its far different of what is in your Image. Islam has many rules for slavery. slavery is employment rather than slavery.
in Islam slave is a respected guest helping in works equal to the master working.
please note that Islam does not recognize slavery.
please say what you understand from this:?
I think this single verse is best reply for your question.
in Islam there no difference between humans unless righteous. only and only righteous.
also please note that before Islam slavery had a very strong roots in culture of Arabs and it was impossible to change it immediately. you know when a human is addict to drugs wants to be treated it is step by step. also Islam did so with Arabs. and so it seems Islam justifies slavery. I ask you please have more deep study abut slavery in Islam.
prophet bought many slaves but never sold them and made all free and spend much wealth in this way to became poor. but some themselves loved the moral of prophet and wanted to stay with him to learn from him. many top leaders of Islam were slaves bought by prophet and educated by prophet.
there is lots of facts about slavery and respect to human rights in Islam and Koran but its long. please study about it and do not believe quickly any thing you see in any website.
making a slave free has very high reward in Islam.
actually all rules of Islam about slavery was in benefit of slaves if you study them in the context of Arab tribes in 1400 years ago. rules was for protecting slaves not for justifying. also step by step Islam offers huge rewards for making slaves free and finally most slaves became free.
also please note that Islam is not the evil manner of Arabs. Islam is what is in Koran and sayings of prophet and Imam Ali (PBUH).
also taqiye is only permitted in war situation when a Muslim is treated to say information about his friends. lie is great sin in Islam.
Jun 14 2011: when speaking about slavery in Koran better to first know the context of Arab socity before Islam and then compare it by after Islam and then honestly saying which is better.
if Islam banned slavery at once 100% Arabs did not accept Islam and killed prophet and not Muslim existed today.
"Is it possible that the Koran was written by men "
please note that he was completely uneducated and did not wrote any thing in all his life and had a donkey and also never claimed Koran is from me. so how it is possible?
"The Koran is not perfect."
prove me one error. not only claim
about Richard and earth please note I said the word مددنا has translated flat in English which is not a good translate. also I showed many other verses sowing earth is not flat.
I did not say you should translate as I say. you yourself can check the meaning of مددنا from diffract souses and then decide honestly.
please say how a flat earth can have two sunset and two sunrise?
and how day covers on night? and night covers on day?
the Arabic text of Koran is important. not translate of Koran.
please consider all verses of Koran about earth then yourself decide Koran says earth is flat or round?
also مددنا is verb and مددناها means we plaind it [earth] (plain as verb. means not full of high/low land)
Jun 14 2011: SR that verse you have quoted says nothing about slaves.
Explain 23:6 "except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them."
33:50 "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what WE HAVE APPOINTED FOR THEM AS TO THEIR WIVES AND THE CAPTIVES WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee..."
Slaves same as employees? Is that why female employee maids are treated so badly in the middle east?
Jun 15 2011: "SR that verse you have quoted says nothing about slaves. "
please note.
that verses says all humans are equal. and do you disagree slaves are also humans.
when Koran says the only criteria for value of humans is righteous:
"the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you."
this means slave and master are equal and the only difference is level of righteous.
if it dos not say the word of slave it does not mean is does not speak about slaves.
also when Koran says:
"and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another."
it means the difference of color of people (black and white for example) does not mean that white is higher than black (slave) and the color is only for knowing each other better like the name we choose to know each other.
so you does not agree it is about slavery?
the prophet always said this verse against slavery in Arab society.
apparently it is not about slavery by according to prophet it is about discrimination and specially slavery.
do you agree it is against slavery?
"Explain 23:6 "
this says mans should have sex only with their wives or or those their right hands possess.
please quickly doe not attack Koran for this.
please know the concept of slave (those their right hands possess) in Koran is far diffrent of the Image of slave in your mind.
as I said before slavery culture had very strong root in Arab culture before Islam and it was impossible to Islam ban it at once. so Islam flighted it step by step. and Islam legitimized slavery but made hard rules for rights of slaves with punishment for not respecting slaves. in Islam a slave and a rich businessman are equal in human rights and social rights unless slave is like an employee with many rights. also Islam made many many rewards for making slaves free. Islam did not ban it at once. but restricted it very much and protected slaves.
Jun 15 2011: "or
33:50 "O Prophet! "
this is same as past verse.
please notice Islam fought slavery step by step. please consider opinion of Koran about slavery generally and totally and you sill find Islam restricted it step by step and actually protected slaves like employees. then you will have a true Image about slavery in Islam. please do not prejudice by your Image of slavery. to different concept with same name. slavery has many hard rules in Islam that a true Muslim never wants to have slave. although having slave is allowed in Islam but not having it is much better with many rewards and actually slaves in Islam will be made free not hold for working. please consider culture and context of Arab tribes at the time that such verses were revelated to prophet.
"Slaves same as employees? Is that why female employee maids are treated so badly in the middle east?"
I asked you many times please do not mix the evil behavior of Muslims with Islam. also not all middle east are Muslim.
so what is the relation of " female employee maids are treated so badly" to Koran?
please show the relation.
Koran disagree "female employee maids are treated so badly"
I do not understand what you mean by copying a link .
please write your argument here clear with related verses.
Jun 15 2011: SR This is the verse:
"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."
@SR "that verses says all humans are equal. and do you disagree slaves are also humans."
1. That verse does NOT say all humans are equal. In fact it says ALL HUMANS ARE UNEQUAL. Some "more noble" than others
2. I agree slaves are also humans but where in the Quran does it say slaves should be treated as equals to non slaves?
As for 23:6 the meaning is clear and confirmed in 33:50 you can have sex with captured women.
Jun 15 2011: "Dear Jason Kather,
please note what is the meaning of slavery in Islam. its far different of what is in your Image. Islam has many rules for slavery. slavery is employment rather than slavery."
No S.R., Slavery is the ownership of one human being by another. People are not to be bought and sold like cattle. People are not to be sex slaves for their masters. Ignoring all other rights that the Koran gives masters over slaves, those two points are enough to make me sick and anyone who is not sickened by the thought of that is more of a beast than a man.
"prophet bought many slaves but never sold them and made all free"
No S.R., while it is true that Mohammed bought more than he sold, I have read the translations of many Islamic Scholars stating that he sold slaves as well. This is another case of you not being honest.
" Islam is what is in Koran and sayings of prophet and Imam Ali (PBUH)."
Do you really want to bring the sayings of the prophet into this? I have been trying to be respectful to Islam and leave that out of the conversation. Mohammed's teachings will do nothing but incite anger in this debate. I have just been using the Koran in my arguments.
"also taqiye is only permitted in war situation when a Muslim is treated to say information about his friends."
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."--Many more quotes from the Koran than that about being at war with anyone who does not follow Islam. Taqiyya is a common occurrence.
Jun 15 2011: "making a slave free has very high reward in Islam."
Yes S.R., but it is also used as the only punishment for many crimes. This shows that giving away a slave is viewed as a bad thing as well.
" when speaking about slavery in Koran better to first know the context of Arab socity before Islam and then compare it by after Islam "
No S.R.---I can not ever accept that an all knowing and all loving God would ever accept slavery. If he told mohammed to go to war for every other reason, how could freeing slaves not be a better reason? if God is all powerful , why did he not change the hearts of men to no longer want to own other humans as slaves?
""Is it possible that the Koran was written by men "
please note that he was completely uneducated and did not wrote any thing in all his life"
No S.R.---Not written by Mohammed....Written by educated men and given to Mohammed like i said twice already. Throughout all of history, it is easy to see the rich, powerful, educated men controlling the rest of the population. please read that part of my earlier post again.
""The Koran is not perfect."
prove me one error. not only claim"
How many more times do you need for this to happen? I can pull many instances where mistakes in the Koran have been proven in this conversation. The Earth is NOT FLAT!!!
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May 19 2011: I did not intend my comment addressed to Mr. Ahmadi complimenting his role as moderator in this discussion, to invite or encourage any discussion about Mr. Ahmadi so I will not speak to your challenge of my compliments to Mr. Ahmadi. But you have given me a good reason to add that here and elsewhere I admire and value that his replies are always very particularly point by pont addressed to commenters..takes a lot of time and thought to do that..it shows much respect for each commenter to do that and clearly, no matter who you are persuaded by or agree with, I am sure you would agree that quality is a valuable one here at TED Conversations as are the qualities of patience, courtesy,.dignity and civility.
May 22 2011: Dear Lindsay,
thanks for your gloria,
but my evils are more than my goods.
this is what my Lord wanted from his servants:
Dear Iqbal,
if I disagree Buddhist it is for some very dangerous beliefs in Buddhism.
for example reincarnation. Koran strongly disagree reincarnation:
also this is not only from Koran. I am sure no human can show any kind of evidence or proof for reincarnation (backing to this world after death even for one second)
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Jun 21 2011: I think the conclusion of this thread could be that, if you're going to try to convince anyone who isn't already swayed by the Koran (i.e. Born in a Muslim culture with Muslim parents) that your book is a miracle, you're going to have to do better than to quote some passages that may; by some crazy stretch of the imagination, mean something scientific well before its time. It certainly doesn't help the Koran's case to hide behind the language barriers each time something in the Koran is scientifically inaccurate (like the vague description of an embryo's development). The Koran is clearly a product of its time and so far I can honestly say its far from being the scientific miracle S.R would have loved it to be.
If S.R is right in saying that "performing miracles is in order to give proof of the authenticity of message of God that it proceeds in fact from the Creator of the universe." than that's really two birds one stone. Not only have we seen that the Koran is not a scientific miracle but we can also conclude by S.R's own logic that this means Allah doesn't exist. Sounds about right.
Jun 11 2011: A little humor helps in hopeless situations....
I've quantified and tabulated all the comments here in this debate and have the results, which I will disclose to everyone now:
SR wins the debate.
How? By baiting us into thinking it was a debate of ideas about the Koran being a scientific miracle. The real debate SR wants to engage in (forever, in open-ended style) is whether or not he can explain away all divergent views by quoting the Koran. He clearly can. We'd run into the same wall if this were any other religious fundamentalist.
So SR, you win.
Actually you tricked me.
I thought I was getting involved in a conversation/debate that would enlighten me about your beliefs. Instead, I've got this big lump on my head from banging into the wall and now I've got to go get it taken care of.
Jun 12 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
thanks for explain about "Oh ye of little faith"
prophet Muhammad has such saying:
"the most powerful people in Believe and the greatest people in certainty are people of end of world. they have not seen any prophet and have do not have any Imam (like apostle). but they believe on some black on white"
about haulocast I there is many conflict between historians and I do not know which are true. and it is not as important as the religion and Hell and so on. if I do not know truth about God and religion there is a risk to I go Hell but if I do not know truth about haulocast there is not such risk and I will not be asked about haulocast at judgement day. so research aboout haulocast is not in my priority list. but if it was important as religion I presonally would research about it out of what say historians by contradict.
"Actually you tricked me.
I thought I was getting involved in a conversation/debate that would enlighten me about your beliefs. Instead, I've got this big lump on my head from banging into the wall and now I've got to go get it taken care of."
actually I did not understand what exact you mean. I do not know you are speaking serious or you are kidding me?"
also If there is a winner it is Koran/Allah (God). not me.
Jun 8 2011: concordism and islam : a love story.
If we look at what the ancient Greeks taught, we can clearly see that all the other references to the embryology in Coran and Hadith are also directly drawn from the Greeks. For example, a hadith indicates:
"in the event of fluid of a male on the substance of the female, the child will be a male by the decree of Allah, and when the substance of the female reigns on the substance contributed by the male, a female child is trained"
This repeats simply the false belief of Hippocrates who believed that the men and the women produced male and female sperm.
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Jun 9 2011: Dear Raphaël Musio,
"- the bees do not eat fruits."
two point:
1- there is two similar word in Arabic both translated to fruits: ثمرات and فواکه that are polural forms of ثمر and فاکهه
but there is a slight difference. فاکهه is fruit. but ثمرات is more general than only fruit and means result, output and so on. so ثمرات also includes the outputs of flowers. so I think it is due to not perfect translation.
2- I had a quick search and found they also eat fruits. but I am not sure. can you show a valid reference that they do not eat fruit?
"- honey does not leave their belly"
who said they leave belly? Koran? please read:
you can check different translations.
please reconsider your opinion about Koran.
"The muslims will reinterpret their coran for its adapts to new knowledge "
I agree you. because Koran interpreters and translators are not scientists and do not know how to translate that has no conflict with science.
but I ensure you the original Arabic text of Koran has no error. translations have error.
Jun 10 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
if some one be perfect in Arabic language it is not vague.
this is a nice sample project for learning some about Arabic in Koran for English people:
did you know before Koran Arab people did not have any grammar and because Koran had highly exact grammar it changed the language and learnd the correct Arabic to Arabs. Koran made Arabic language organized and exact.
Jun 10 2011: The bees have in load the provisioning of the hive. Once posed on a plant with flowers (angiospermes), the bee draws aside the petals, plunges its head inside, lengthens its language and aspires from them the nectar which it temporarily stores in its jabot
. Because of their anatomy and in particular the length of their language, the bees can collect nectar only on certain flowers, which are known as then mellifères. The nectar of the flowers has as a function to attract the pollinating insects, which ensure their fecundation thus
.The bees can also collect honeydew, excretion produced by sucker insects like the plant louse, the cochineal or the metcalfa starting from the sap of the trees. It will be used in the same way that the nectar of flower (it is this basic commodity which is in particular used to work out the honey of fir tree).
The development of honey starts in the jabot of the worker, during her flight of return towards the hive. Invertase, an enzyme of the family of the diastases, is added, in the jabot, with nectar. It then occurs a chemical reaction, the hydrolysis of the saccharose which gives glucose and fructose.
Arrived in the hive, the butineuse bee régurgite nectar with an usherette (trophallaxie), which, in her turn, will régurgitera and D-ingurgitera this nectar rich in water, by mingling it with saliva and gastric juices, resulting in supplementing the process of digestion of sugars. Once stored in the cells, honey is dehydrated by a ventilation long and energetic share precisely of the ventileuses workers. Become ripe, honey has one extremely long shelf life (wikipedia for honey)
- reference (bee doesn't eat fruit) : http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.en.15.010170.001043?journalCode=ento
Jun 10 2011: - Verse 69 : Then eat of any fruit species, and follow the paths of your Lord, made easy for you. Their belly, a liquor leaves, with the varied colors, in which there is a cure for people. There is really there a proof for people who reflect. "
honey does not leave the belly of the bees but of their jabot (honey left by the mouth). If the Arab word for "belly" wants to also say "head", "mouth", "tongue" then all is well.
But I doubt it.
A divinity who does not know that its book will be prone to interpretation is null, inefficient, idiotic.
Jun 12 2011: Dear Raphaël Musio,
"- reference (bee doesn't eat fruit) "
I read it.
it mention some different nutrition that honey bee eat:
-soybean flour, dried brewers yeast
-dried skim milk
-dried egg yolk
but i did not found anything showing that: "bee doesn't eat fruit"
please show it exact.
"honey does not leave the belly of the bees but of their jabot "
بطون is plural form of بطن and the meaning of بطن is not limited to belly. it is more general than belly. بطن means means "inside of something" which includes belly. and usually is used for belly by Arab people. but its meaning is not necessarily limited to belly. but there is the word المعده that exactly means stomach.
I do not want to justify it by explaining the meaning of بطون
you yourself can check it in a Arabic dictionary or ask a Arab person.
actually it is related to quality of translation. not related to Koran itself.
also I prefer this translation:
"A divinity who does not know that its book will be prone to interpretation is null, inefficient, idiotic."
yes. right . that planned for it:
do you want to know who are the "people of message"?
the are only 14 persons (like hostels) that one of them is alive today:
Koran should not be used alone.
prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has a very important saying before his death:
those two should always be together.
if separate Koran and use it alone Koran can not be understood correct.
Jun 9 2011: - all the sites say that the bees with honey collect nectar (but I board not of ethologic publication under the hand).
- if the Arab word also means "head" or "mouth", I am sorry.
Well, to take the problem in this way poses concern. So, can you decipher in the coran:
- the DNA with the 4 bases.
- evolution with the natural selection, mutations, the genetic relationship
- quantum mechanics and general relativity
- the mechanism of photosynthesis
- the function of ribosomes, elements of the cell
- the mechanism of the sun (precisely, to say that "it is a reaction with fire" is too simple)
- various types of elementary particles, their constitution, their rules of interaction.
- us to say which is the internal constitution of the moon.
- why water is transparent
- etc
Then, you did not answer on the evolution
Jun 10 2011: Dear Raphaël Musio,
after collecting nectar what happens?
please explain exact what is the process of transforming nectar to honey.
"- if the Arab word also means "head" or "mouth", I am sorry."
which word you mean?
please show a scientific reference that honey bee does not eat fruit.
about your items (evolution, quantum,... ) let me try to find some text for them in Koran.
May 30 2011: the quran is full of miracles. search them for yourself. and future technology will discover many new things the the quran already hav mentioned. every prophet and messenger came with a miracle and muhammad's miracle is quran.
quran adopts itself to any time region without the need to change it. that a miracle by itself!
May 25 2011: Dear Richard.
OK, you are right.
let have a common definition of consepts like science and scientific method.
actually this is alphabet of our talk.
can you explain what is scientific method?
please distinguish between below items and please say your definition of each:
1. scientific research
2. scientific hypothesis
3. scientific theory
4. proven scientific fact
5. truth.
also please say in your view each of below are which of above?:
1. Big Bang
2. evolution
3. natural selection
4. spontaneous generation (random variation)
5. common ancestor (Common descent) (In evolutionary biology)
and specially please say below statement is from which type in your view?:
"human and ape have common ancestor"
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May 26 2011: Dear Richard,
OK, no problem.
as I think Science and the Scientific contains:
1. scientific research
2. scientific hypothesis
3. scientific theory
4. proven scientific fact
5. truth.
I wanted we have clear definition of each and BB, evolution,... were only examples and they are not subject of talk.
OK, I agree. please continue.
May 23 2011: Dear S.R.Ahmadi,
Like you, I am a practicing muslim.Indeed,the Qur'an is a gift from Allah.It is undeniably an inspiration to me.Every word ,surah and passages in it shows very well that Allah loves us all, be it muslims or non-muslims.However, I hope that you don't force unto the non-muslims in TED to accept the Quran unwillingly.Our religion does not teach us to do so. Assalamualaikum.
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May 19 2011: before you ask Why Allah increased the disease in their hearts
First ask
why they got the disease in the first place?
and what is this disease is?
the disease is disbelieve
They do not have any desire to believe in their Creator
so Allah gave them want they want (more of disbelieve)
if Allah did see the desire inside your heart for guidance he will not guide you
so why you blame your GOD when he gave what you like
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May 19 2011: Yes HE did hide him self but he show the evidences but you don't want to see it
or you don't have the desire?
How made the SUN , Earth , Water , Life ,?
all this stuff is materialistic evidences and no one claimed he made
in short Richard I can not see your real desire inside your heart but the Creator does see it
show him not me a real desire and HE will show the way
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May 22 2011: "how the Earth was made and how water was made and God has nothing to do with it."
please first ask: why all of them exist and why all of them have atoms working so exact?
it is like that we see the saw and do not see the man that saw is in hand. all you say is saw. but who moves the saw?
" We also have good ideas how life was made and soon we will make it too."
really? what if science find the correct answer (God) and you are dead and in Hell? then can scientists do any help for you and take you out or Hell? do they have such power?
scientists should be responsible for themselves and you for yourself.
"We also know that many things written in religious books, including the Quran are wrong, "
you have not yet proved one wrong thing in Koran.
but showed only a long list of doubts and claims.
May 2 2011: Dear Charles Eggebrecht,
Koran has no conflict with science.
has many many scientific predictions.
Koran is not written by any human.
a 40 years old unread shepherd man who can not write his name and lost mother and father in when child in a society with many many silly beliefs suddenly starts saying Koran.
Koran is poem but is not poem. all Arab poets say we can not say even one poem like Koran.
there is just one Koran among 1.5 Billion Muslim worldwide and all agree Koran is original and all is from God and there is no doubt even one word of Koran be changed during 1400 years.
there is no rational or scientific false in Koran.
in Koran there is just one God and God has no son and heaven can not be sold in world. and every one should save himself and no prophet can save its people and God is not human and God can not be seen by eye of head.
can any one can find a scientific conflict in this 1400 years old book?
except Koran all other sources have error or contradict inside itself.
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May 3 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
where of Koran said those claims?
please show its ayah in Koan.
Koran said 1400 years ago that earth is round:
please show the ayah for your claims.
what you said is just claim.
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May 4 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
if earth is flat then it will have one sunrise and one sunset.
when Koran say earth has 2 sunrise ad 2 sunset, is is possible when earth is round.
why God not said Lord of one sunrise and one sunset?
the tafseer you say is not correct. almost all tafseer say it means earth is round. why you leave all and stick in this one? this one not mentioned any reason for that. better to at least look five tafseer then say some thing about one ayah.
"The two points of sunrise and sunset at the summer and winter "
summer and winter are two time. not two point.
"If the Quran wanted to say the Earth was round it could simply have said so"
yes could, but not wanted purposely.
"On the other hand it says the Earth is flat as shown in the verses: 15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30"
please exact say your argument with sentences from Koran you mean.
this is just a claim. please say complete and perfect argument.
"People who have studied the Quran and know Arabic and believe in it but have studied nothing else"
this is your believe. but as I am seeing it is not true.
"Such as Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz"
yes, possible they had misunderstanding of Koran. I accept your saying just about them. not about all Muslims. also there are many tafseer say earth is round. why not say them?
"There is nothing scientific about the Quran."
so disprove all claims at:
"who even issued a Fatwa declaring the Earth is flat."
Koran is not what some one say. Koran is what inside Koran. like that is church. Bible is not what church say. Bible is what is inside church.
Indeed that Fatwa is wrong.
"so did Aristotle, The Romans, Aryabhata, of India, "
if it was so clear so why church said it is flat?
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May 4 2011: "Persia had a great and ancient civilisation that was destroyed by the barbarians from Arabia."
what civilization you mean?
Iran had civilization both before and after Arabs attack Iran. Persia rejected Arab attacks but absorbed Koran and using Koran made a new amazing civilization. I want to make sure you do not consider the civilization of After Koran for civilization of before Koran. please say some examples. most civilization today is known is for after Koran era. before Koran Iranians prayed fire and some one could marriage his mother,... what civilization you mean? please say specific. I think you do not know the historical dates exact.
I consider "Amil Imani" as a liar. I showed some of his lies before.
"Iranians are leaving Islam in mass numbers"
this is lie. evidence?
"Dont worry there is no Islamic hell"
if at Judgement day existed can you then rescue me?
http://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter/ (chapter Qiamat)
yes there is many movies and lies about Koran and Islam in Internet from who lose their positions and moneys at Iran revolution and fear to people understand truth. but a rational human does not accept anything.
after revolution many escaped Iran and the only thing can do is spreading lies in Internet. they fear to come back.
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May 4 2011: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/2:80
show me your covenant and I accept you.
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May 4 2011: "it has an infinite number."
please do not say what you do not know about Koran:
I could not find a good English translate but this is best I found:
it says: "Easts and Wests "
"And what about all those other verses that say the Earth is Flat?"
show one of them.
"If I wanted to tell you the world is round I would say so - not that I am the Lord of the 2 sunrises and then go onto say the world is flat like a carpet."
Koran does not want to say just this one thing it want to say thousand other things else.
Koran is not just for now. it for all the future years also. so it should can say all the facts in the most compact possible. otherwise Koran would not be one book. it would be a large library.
"are the very antithesis of Science. "
no problem, show then. maybe I had mistake.
"Please desist from doing this."
sure and thanks, please first show mistakes then I stop them.
"You make the ridiculous statement ""you just need Koran to access to unlimited source of science and knowledge". "
right, not just Koran, added thinking and research and true tafseers of Koran.
right I accept you.
also it is possible learning science with no classroom:
God learn direct to some:
"And fear Allah. And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things."
for example most Persian big poets and scientists like:
also this is very clear: a unread man become a big poet immediate:
please consider from 1400 years ago many tafseers are written every year and Indeed many of those tafseers have errors. this not mean Koran has error. it means who wrote tanseer had error.
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May 5 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
I not consider the that website of tafsir (commentary of Koran) as a valid website. it is a IT company rather than a tafsir specialist. the word "مددنا" does not mean earth is flat. maybe writer could not find any better English word for مددنا
it is translate rather than commentary. you call 2 line commentary? you have not seen real tafsir yet. there are tafsirs have many pages of commentary for just one ayah.
the sura hamd (first sura) is little but many many books has been written on commentary of it.
if you ask any Arab language person will not say you this means earth is flat. there are many many valid and powerful tafsirs but unfortunately not available in English.
if you can find one invalid and old and wrong tafsir on internet, it not mean Koran is not correct.
I checked many english websites to find a good and valid english website for commentary of Koran and this is a aood valid and from a specialist in tafsir of Koran.
I consider below one as a valid tafsir available in English.
this is really an excellent tafsir of Koran:
please select sura and ayah and click on "commentary" then check it.
no 100% correct commentary for Koran can be found written by humans. unless tafsirs learned from God direct:
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:282 :
"And fear Allah. And Allah teaches you"
the secret of learning unlimited true knowledge is "fearing God" or piety:
a small example:herbs speak to pious people and say them their properties:
you also can write a commentary on Koran. but I think you confirm it needs first becoming perfect in Arabic language. also every one who is Arab language can not write all correct commentary on Koran.
Koran is like a large infinite table of food and every one eat as much as the size of his stomach. (knowledge)
May 5 2011: "Now
1. At least that first verse you quoted is incorrect."
why incorrect? at any fixed time there is just 2 sunrise ad sunset. for example right now (current moment) there is 2 sunrise and 2 sunset in earth. so it is correct and clearly means earth is round. if earth was flat then this verse was incorrect. I do not understand why you say it is incorrect?
"2. Sunrises does not mean that the Quran is talking about the sunrises as the Earth is spinning."
why? it should mean as you want?
" It is obviously talking about the many sunrises, 1 every day."
why you think it means 1 every day? why not many sunrise in each day (when earth is round in one 24 hours many sunrises occurs in different countries)
"This is obvious because it talks about the Earth being flat and the sun going around the Earth and setting in a swamp."
as you interpret this, then it will be one sunset. not many.
"We have stretched it out, spread it flat,"
this not mean earth is flat. this is a translation limitation. flat has 2 meaning:
1- earth is like a plate
2-earth is plain. i.e all the surface of earth is not like mountains. i.e earth has most of earth is plain and suitable for living and making road.
if the translator has translated مددنا into flat he means no.2 . not no.1
مددنا is a verb. not a noun and not mean earth is flat. it means we flattened the earth. translator could not find better English word and used "We have stretched it out, spread it flat" altogether for one Arabic word of مددناها
the verse say 2 sunset and 2 sunrise can be for one fixed moment and the verse say Easts and Wests can be about spinning of earth.
anyway the total verses of Koran together should be considered when concluding something from Koran. not one verse explained as you like.
May 5 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
about 2 sunrises and 2 sunsets:
the sunset time for a place on earth in each day of year is different of other year and it has a max. and min during year. this max. point and min. point are two special points on earth. and also about sunrise. so we have 2 special sunset and 2 special sunrise on earth. this is why God said:
you are right. this does not show earth is round. I had a mistake and after study I found you are right about that verse.
but other verse saying Easts and Wests and also other verse like below show earth is round.
this is one other verse for that earth is round:
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May 5 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
this is his idea and a claim with no proof.
"saying in many verses that is simple and clear to understand"
yes Koran has many levels.
the first level is easy to understand. but not all parts. most parts of Koran is easy to understand. but not all. all can be undrstand just by asking from who Koran says:
So ask the "people of the message" if you do not know
ask the "people of the message" if you do not know.
who are "people of the message"?
who has the courage to say I am from "people of the message"?
one of them is Ali (peace on him) and this is one of his book:
that book is miracle like Koran and this book is called "brother of Koran" and is one of best sources for understanding adepts of Koan.
Koran is unlimited source of secret and science but Koran does not let anyone understand it. for example at
she says at that movie:
"I know many well-intentioned non-Muslims who've begun reading the Koran, but given up, disconcerted by its otherness. The historian Thomas Carlyle considered Muhammad one of the world's greatest heroes, yet even he called the Koran, "As toilsome reading as I ever undertook, a wearisome, confused jumble.""
"but given up"
why given up? is not it wonderful given up such important book? is not it strange for you?
the reply is:
because they are not allowed to touch Koran (meanings of Koran).
Koran itself says:
no one can understand Koran unless make himself clean before reading Koran.
both body and heart.
cleaning heart from evil morals. then he is allowed to understand Koran.
I do not think who drink wine will never be allowed to understand Koran.
wine is very corrosive to Wisdom.
May 5 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
"In the face of such evidence of its miraculous powers you are beginning to convert me into believing in your Islamic Hell."
"I have one question for you if you can please answer me."
Dear Brother and Friend Richard Dawson my reply is:
ask me any question. even 40 question.
Dear Richard, not any person is qualified to explain Koran.
if you just get knowledge of Koran from who Koran said, you never will miss the way of God.
just ant just and just get knowledge of Koran from "people of the message". not anyone else. this is secret of visiting God and entering Heaven and becoming successful for ever for billions of billions of years. infinite success.
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May 6 2011: Hello,
yes I have some times sense of humor and make others laugh. (but as a personal problem I forget is most times)
that's not right.
Islam does not accept laugh by load voice.
but Islam always encourage to make people Happy. specially making Believers happy is from one of the best deeds God love.
there is many sayings and books under title of "who enter happy in the heart of a believer ..."
there is many many sayings of prophet that making others happy is very good deed.
I do not know or heard about what you say about Khomeini. but as I know in the prophet of Islam and also Khomeini usually did some humor with people around them:
for example one day a beldam came to prophet and asked some questions then prophet said her:beldam does not enter Heaven. then she became sad. then prophet said while smiling: all people became young before entering Heaven, then enter. and she became happy and smiling. such samples of humor are many in Islamic literature.
in Islam load laughing is evil, but smile and making others happy (but with no lie or befool or sin) is very good and has many rewards from God.
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May 8 2011: Hi Richard,
thanks for your correction.
Islam says a believers should have both hope to saving and fear of punishment together. not only one. like a sparrow in hand of a person, hoping to scape and flutter from fear.
God teaches us how to laugh:
laugh of prophets and believers::
laugh of unbelievers:
there are different Arabic words for forms of laugh. totally according to Koran making other people happy is good and has reward. but laughing loud or satirize are evil deeds and God hate it and has punishment by God.
who really believe in God and Hell, always take care of his manners and always fear of mistakes and of Hell so such human is always worry of Hell and do not laugh loud.
"What does the Koran say if a person laughs at Allah or the prophet? What will be the punishment?"
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May 9 2011: Dear Richard,
sorry for late reply.
I follow many topics and not see replies quick and TED has not email notification system life FaceBook.
you can send me email for quick reply.
all the prophets and Imams and all good people are alive for ever and you can meet them and speak them any time in awake in in sleep. but before that you should clean your heart and purify yourself. God and also them do not accept people with dirty hearts (dirt of heart is evil deeds, evil moral, evil think). if you purify yourself they themselves come to you. in sleep dream or in awake, before you go to them.
the body of friends of God never expire and never get bad smell in their tomb. opening the tomb is not allowed in Islam. but some time by accident (repair of tombs, war,...) many times it has been observed that the body of dead friends of God is even after thousands of years is fresh. even some of them are killed and still the blood is fresh like that some minutes ago they are killed. they are ready for appearance of 12th Imam to alive again and help him.
but what you have header is not about their body. it is their sprite. body is actually nothing. the main of human is its sprite. not body. prophets and Imams and friends of God are always alive and always hear you and always reply your greeting and if your sprite has growth enough and Ascension then the eyes of your sprite becomes open and you can see spiritual world and can see the sprite of prophets while speaking you and replying you. but if your sprite eye is closed and your ear of sprite is closed they reply you but you not see and hear their sprite. but if needed to you see them they come in your sleep dream and there you see them. they have no limit in place and time. they see and hear every where and every time. also about angles yes they come to good people and deliver greeting of God to them. they not need to angles deliver them. their sprite is so big and powerful that they hear every where.
May 9 2011: also if needed prophets can appear at any time including now in a material body and meet you and reply your scientific questions for example. it is piece of cake for them.
they are free and allowed and powered by God to do any thing.
not only Muhammad (peace on him) but all messengers. also you can meet Jesus (peace on him) but first you should purify yourself.
not all prophets are in the same level in nearness to God.
Muhammad is the highest and most beloved to God. because the religion of all messengers has expire date, but Muhammad (peace on him) prophets are witness on people in front of God at Judgement day and Muhammad is witness on all prophets.
any human can reach the level of prophets and can have miracle and can control Nature.
there is no limit in Ascension of human spirit.
God said:
obey me to become like me. when I Intend some thing I say to it be so it becomes and you say be and it becomes.
no need for raw material, no need to electricity and energy, and no need to material or any thing. only Intend. you can intend to be other side of world in one moment or any work. but this is not easy to reach. it needs obey God and best level of obeying God is piety:
if you become a real pies believer you become same as prophets and can do any thing they can do except deviation. but communication of God to human is not limited to deviation. the dream and revealment and Intuition is used for friend of God who are not prophet.
this is the instruction to become a true pious:
Apr 28 2011: Dear Deaven Morris,
this is a law of nature:
"we can explain a scientific fact just it be scientifically experimented and approved"
if some one can predict scientific facts 1400 years before other can discover it what this proves?
"if something defies the laws we say the laws are incorrect not that a miracle happened."
not always.
if if something defies the laws there is two possibility:
1- laws are incorrect
2- who can defies the laws of nature, so he has the supernatural power.
for example laws of nature say sun should rise from west. if some one can rise sun from west, what you say?
you say laws are incorrect ?
May 10 2011: Dear Deaven Morris
Iam not that good in english i hope u speak italian ...but my friend how muhammed know that the ruman will won at persian in the lowest place in the earth ??!! how he know?? why the lowes place in dead see why not in america coz there was no body know about america 1400 years ago how he is sure that they will won the war in the lowest land in the earth ???? i think this is MIRACLE .. iam not muslim iam christ but i start read about al quran and islam and i think its have alot of things to learn but u must learn arabic first to understand it its only ONE BOOK IN ONE LANGUGE whatever u translate it, u cant under stand it like in arabic witch push all the ppl to speak one languge and be around one book i think thats smart more than enough
May 17 2011: Dear gavioli,
if some one learn Arabic and do have a black heart there is no way to understand Koran.
lf some one drink wine there is no way to understand Koran until 40 days.
if some one do not know Arabic, but fear God and accept truth and purify heart, God teaches him even with no knowing Arabic language.
but learning Arabic is very valuable.
Imam sadiq (peace on him) said:
"Learn Arabic, so it is language of God."
May 23 2011: Dear Iqbal,
you are right about Sanskrit.
but God selected Arabic for his final message (Koran)
language is not important. message is Important. please do not be nationalist.
if God selected Sanskrit then other people said why God not selected our language.
also Arabic is not my language. my language is Persian. but as I am looking for message of God, I learned Arabic. (not perfect but as needed)
Apr 26 2011: Dear Salim Solaiman,
"There is nothing called miracle in science............. "
I believe, but people do not believe.
materialist people in this era just believe what materialist scientists believe. materialist scientists today are Gods, religion and believes for people.
when a God order to his slaves, then all slaves accept and believe what that God (deity) says and people do not ask a God what is the reason for that God. a God needs no reason for doing any thing.
so if we want to believe some thing first scientists should believe.
so I am trying to find a way to can communicate with scientists.
also I want to reassure myself.
scientists just understand their own language (language of material).
you mean there is no way to scientists understand what is miracle?
at least they can not make a definition for Miracle?
if some one have the ability to control the sun to rise form west and set in west and scientists can observe it how many times they like. then you mean they still do not understand what is a miracle?
the language of scientists is very difficult.
can any one help me to I understand the language of scientists or help scientists to understand my language?
Apr 26 2011: Dear Ahmadi
It's not clear to me , what you wanted to indicate by saying language of material ?
To me it's simple base of religion is belief , strong belief which is blind mostly so no need of reasoning or fact finding. While for science, it's reasoning , fact finding, logic and so on.
When religion says something to be miracle and take it granted as miracle, science says its unexplainable for the time being and starts asking why, what , how to find out the reason behind. Science is a continuum of finding reasons, facts and logic, religion is a dead end.
So really can't understand why you are saying scientists are difficult to communicate. If you want to communicate with someone , you have to use their language. One can't communicate with a person who talks and understands different language than the communicator.
Wondering why you need reassurance for yourself ? Does it mean you have doubts in your belief ?To me it does not matter whatever way one takes , if it does not cause any harm to humanity .
Apr 28 2011: but I do not think materialist scientists accept logic and so on. they just accept material. they believe some thing exist just when can see it or detect it by a material instrument.
and blind people are their followers.
"If you want to communicate with someone , you have to use their language."
this is just I started this topic to find a way to communicate materialist scientists.
so what is the right way? or there is no way at all?
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May 22 2011: "Why don't you become one"
I was for years in labs and in universities. but God is better than material.
"Sun never rises, it stays at the same place."
its relative. we can say change direction of earth instead.
also sun is not fixed. it is moving slow.
"language of needs."
what is that?
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May 23 2011: Dear iqbal,
there are at least 32 verses about sun in Koran:
please read them (click on each result, then click translate) and please say does it say correct about sun or not?
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Apr 28 2011: Dear Richard , thanks for your compliments. If you have found me something hopefull then there are lot more hopes for you , as in Bangladesh plenty people are there who hold better thoughts than me :)
Your HIV analogy is great !!! Loved it really.
I missed that question of S.R. Ahmadi regarding fear of hell. Dear Ahmadi, why you are so afraid of hell when Allah is Rahman (Kind)? Great poet , philosopher, astronomer Omar Khayyam of your country (the then Persia) wrote in his Rubai ( poems written of 4 lines in simple)
" Awarding me heaven, prove YOURSELF to be kind
Even though whole life I was defient
Getting reward, obeying everything YOU say
Something like, getting salary after doing day long job hard
That's not the proof of YOUR kindness my LORD"
Sorry for my poor translation and as I am not poet , could not translate it in maintaining rules of Rubai , I just wanted to share the inner thoughts of one of my favorite poets.
Apr 28 2011: Dear Brother Salim Solaiman,
actually I not fear Hell, but I fear from my evil deeds and merciful of God is not for all.
please read this:
the prophet of God Muhammad (peace on him) is fearing from punishment of God. then we should do what we like and then say:
no problem, God will forgive all?
No, No,
God Kind, but not for all.
the Kind of God cover some believers, not all. do you know who? reply is in Koran.
Muhammad learned us that your "fear" and "hope" to God should be always toghether. even if you are best believer on earth still you should fear to not become assured.
because who become assured falls Immediately from Heaven in Hell.
Muhammad said a real believer has both fear and hope together like a sparrow in hand of a person flutter from fear while hope to be free.
Apr 28 2011: Wow !!! Richard my firend & brother , Khayyam is also on your list of favorite ! You then definitely came accross that Rubai that I tried to translate with my poor english and zero poetic talent. Sorry I couldn't think that you are well versed with Khayyam because of your great father ( I am not saying otherwise you wouldn't be though )
Agree fully with you about thoughts of Persia and it's counter productive evolution over time.
You made me overwhelmed with your compliments (that's dangerous for me though ha ha ha ). I am obliged. My firend I am not enlightened, just want to be curious , trying to keep mind ever open ....
Yes you are right I will not be going there
Apr 28 2011: Khayyam, Hafez, Moulawi, Sadi all are derived from Koran and all are interpretations of Koran.
Koran is the source.
please note:
"obeying everything YOU say"
"doing day long job hard"
"obeying everything YOU say"
all means heaven is not for all.
who not work will get salary?
who not obey will get reward?
who do not hear deny of God will get reward?
"so while translating he gave himself poetic licence,"
God give them license. there is some good doings if some do during life and do God gives him the Gift of poem. there are many poets in Iran became immediately.
for example do you know "Baba Taher"?
he was an unread man and immediately at one moment became a poet. now his tomb is in Hamadan, Iran.
their poets are very famous.
all of them are interpreters of Koran but in poem language.
"destroyed by the Arabic conquests"!!!
please read some history and look dates.
all their poets are at date after Arabic conquests.
this is another miracle of Koran that all that poets are influenced from Koran and had not any other source for their poems.
each poem of them is from one or more ayah of Koran. no exception.
"Ahmadi, you did say you were afraid of hell in one of your conversations, which you then removed." I did not delete. may be owner of topic deleted topic.
yes I afraid of God. not God himself, but punishment of God. i.e. my evil deeds. they are the same.
I have both afraid and hope together about God. ext ream hope or ext ream fear both has bad results. but both together is good and is what God expect from us.
pleas understand me and do not interpret poem as you like.
I just say we should try to understand Koran and poems as they are. not as we like.
Apr 28 2011: about http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq.htm there are many misunderstandings about Islam and some questions is about mistake manners of some Muslims and some are about false understanding and false exegesis of Koran from people who have not enough qualification for correct understand and exegesis of Koran. interested people. please choose one case to talk about it. all is long.
please see or ask doubts about Islam and reply here:
please do not doubt about Islam based on what you heard and you are not sure.
please ask any doubt about Islam.
my be first doubt you say is why your messenger has sex with a daughter.
usually all have this doubt.
please ask any doubt.
here is for talk and hope we both can talk by free mind with no assumption.
maybe I am in mistake and I learn from you.
May 22 2011: Hello Iqbal,
please be polite when you speak about a prophet of God. fear from Hell.
"His marriage with many women proves that."
he had 9 wife and all of them unless one (15-17 years) were old widows. and that young was insisted by her father to marry prophet and because of political reasons prophet finally accepted. his first wife was a 40 years old woman that had two marriage before. if he was looking only sex why his first marriage was not with a young woman?
also he became prophet at age of 40. and before he was a honest and well known man in societyb and highly respected because of his good manners and honesty and he was called "trusty Muhammad" and at that time there was no bank and if one wanted to go travel spent all his money and golds to Muhammad (peace on him) and after backing get his money back. and many more good morals and behaviors. he was highly respected in people.
please read some about life and manner of him.
then you call such man a sex addict.
fear God and apologize God.
this has a very hard punishment at judgement day.
but I still respect you:
Jun 20 2011: You are right - I don't doubt you have other interests and that here on TED it is not the place to necessarily show your entire personality. The same holds true for me!
And I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that you are anything but well-intentioned in your thoughts - I think you are as well-intentioned as I am and that we both make mistakes. I wouldn't worry too much about your evils. They may in fact be human frailties - not evil at all.
But I did want to point out to you that what you say often times reminds me of someone who feels persecuted... and at other times someone who has all the answers. It's natural for you to feel a certain amount of persecution due to where you were born and what you have experienced. But if that dictates your thinking in it's entirety, then you have succumbed to it - get over it!!!
And if you think your religion is better than another's because of something you've been told, well then I'm telling you now that can't be true.
When I said "Hang out with a woman" I only meant so that you could gain a true insight as to how women are suppressed in many places in the world!! If this would not be possible simply because you are married, then that is the very point I am trying to make.
Jun 21 2011: thanks dear friend and brother Jim Moonan,
I agree and appreciate you.
please note that in the era of information and Internet and satellite the dictate has no meaning.
I am not donkey or ape and I have enough think and wisdom and enough access to information to can decide independently. also please note I have been at least 11 years in different universities and had enough expose of anti-Islamic thinks and little contact with Islamic teaches. all I know is from my personal interest and personal research and study. I had no religious studying.(only few in school and university as required units that I passed them like other students instead of understanding).
I think religion is better not because I've been told. because it is most updated and last true and not deviated religion of God. I always follow the latest religion and prophet of God. all prophets are the same and I follow the latest prophet because context change s and each prophet is for one context and God did not sent any prophet after Muhammad (PBUH) and this means God satisfy the latest religion for current context.
although my parents are simple Muslims but I have not grown in a religious condition and I was not religious until before university. also may father was not religious. for example my father did not participate in Iran-Iraq war. but one day he decided to go war and protect his land and went to related office to register his name and get war cloth. but that day news announced war finished.
I was not religious until one day I had a travel to shrine of Imam Reza (PBUH) and that travel changed my life 180 degree.
Jun 21 2011: SR - Thanks very much for such a warm response… Our orientations to the world are very different, but that's what I love about this world. Peace and love are real things, and although it may be unrealistic to think that the world will ever be a peaceful place, there IS a place for peace, compassion, caring and civility and that's where i want to be.
Jun 19 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
what is your idea about this website and the scientific Quran miracles shown on it?
Jun 18 2011: SR: Would you be open to a blending of faiths so that their was one belief system? In other words, can you see a day coming when there is no Islam, no Catholicism, no Judiasm, no Hinduism, no Buddism, etc. and in it's place a melding of all of them to create one religion?
Also, in chrsitian practice, it is generally allowed for followers to interpret many parts of the bible in their own personal way - not "One Way".
Is that also the case with Islam?
Jun 19 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
all religions from God have no conflict. only newer is more complete. and so they are already blended. (original beliefs of religions of God like Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
religions made by human are not true religion (religion is only religion if made by God). and human made religions have conflict with religions of God. for example Abraham religions have only and only one God and believing in more than one God is great and the only sin that can not be forgiven. but for example Buddhism have many Gods. how two contradict believes can be blended? it is not soup. it is religion.
please note all prophets of God were Muslim and their morals and deeds has no conflict with Islam but they were completed step by step and final religion is most completed:
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. "
and this what promised for future of all religions:
"Also, in chrsitian practice, it is generally allowed for followers to interpret many parts of the bible in their own personal way - not "One Way".
about what subjects? principals of religion? or detail new happening subjects?
"Is that also the case with Islam?"
Islam has two main category of instructions (religion laws):
1- primary instructions
2- secondary instructions
primary instructions are base and principals and fixed law and not changeable and are like formula.
secondary are for new happening needs. for example a new technology or product is made and needs new instructions. for example all Muslims pray into direction of Kaaba. now people go and live in moon. then to what direction they should do pray? this is a new happening need. and in such cases ONLY who are expert in Islam and know all principals can make new instruction that should not have any conflict with primary instructions. (fatwa)
Jun 17 2011: I always just stand in awe at these geniuses that invented the big religions, really props to them, this thing is just EVERYWHERE, even on ted.com, outstanding, even when they make no sense and have no basis nor evidence, it's unbelievable, just amazing. I wish i had just 0.1% of their ability to manipulate people I really do
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Jun 17 2011: Mohammad thanks for sharing verse 42:45 with an ignoramus like me.
"And you will see them being exposed to it, namely, the Fire, submissive, fearful and humbled, by abasement, looking, at it, with a furtive glance, a slight look, stealthily .. And those who believe will say, 'Verily the [true] losers are those who have lost themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection, for being condemned to abide forever in the Fire and for not being able to attain [the blissful company of] the houris prepared for them in Paradise had they been believers.."
Of course so thoughtless of us not to believe in the "miracle" of the Quran. When one considers just for believing you will get all those houris and for not believing that terrible punishment in hell.
So predictable, if the claims are implausible and the story is incredible, close with a threat of Hell and throw in a promise of houris. That should clinch the argument. (Although how do the houris work for women? they only have the whip (hell) but no carrot (houris). )
Talking about right path and righteous teachings have you read the Bible Mohammad?
Jun 17 2011: Dear Mohammad BIn Iftikhar,
I know such people exist.
but I never prejudice about any one until I become ensured.
I think they are seeking truth. western people have a dark Image of religion according to crimes of church to religion and humanity.
if I ensure they are deaf I will not waste my time with them.
so let them ask and research and seek truth.
I hope they be real truth seekers and accept truth even if truth is not in their favor.
they way you speak them before knowing them is not the way prophet was speaking with non Muslims.
prophet replied every question rationally even with referring to bible and torah and never pushed any one to accept Koran and Islam.
also Koran said:
lets make truth clear and leave people free to decide.