text:
I have to say I'm pretty impressed with you, my fellow Hawks fans.
Despite the fact that things are in slow motion this time of year, y'all have really kept up the discussion (intelligently, I might add) at a pretty high rate, even when it may or may not seem like there is a lot to talk about. Or maybe it's not that there isn't a lack of subject matter, as much as there is so many things that have been re-hashed over and over. Yet things have not gone stale, and that is thanks to you. So, let's keep it going…
Bench Mob
I think that the idea of watching this team under Larry Drew really has sparked a great deal of discussion, despite the various supposed or assumed circumstances surrounding his hire. One issue in particular that many are probably anticipating is how he will use his bench. After years of watching a Hawks rotation that was comprised primarily of seven and sometimes guys (I'd say Mo Evans' status as a rotation player was in a constant state of flux), should we expect a lot of change? Is there a "safety in numbers" line of thinking with Drew and his staff? Even more to the point, does he truly feel that he can go a solid eight, nine, or even ten deep with the current roster he has (plus whomever gets signed between now and the start of the season)?
There are a lot of questions here, and they won't be answered until that first buzzer sounds, though we should get some pretty good hints of what is to come during the preseason (where we will also get to see that vaunted offense). Okay, so we know Jamal Crawford and Zaza Pachulia are rotation players. What of Mo Evans? Will he get consistent minutes? Maybe we should be asking whether or not he'll earn them, and where he'll get most of his playing time. Jeff Teague is expected to see an increase in minutes as well, becoming a part of the rotation. That automatically gives the Hawks a nine man rotation. Will Josh Powell be a regular in the frontcourt as well? He reportedly came here to get more playing time than he was getting with the L.A. Lakers, but he will have to provide something that is missing, for that to happen. What of Jason Collins? Is he another Mike Woodson scapegoat conduit or a useful player?
There is another view we can take on this "safety in numbers" theory, and it applies to Drew's offense. All five guys on the attack, he says. Well, that is certainly better than one guy on the attack by himself, with the variation of such an offense being that the ball is passed to another guy who goes on the attack by himself. But….might it be too complicated? Will guys who have gotten the lion's share of the shot attempts get the same number of attempts, or will that change? Will the Hawks learn to "ride the hot hand", or will Drew call for a strict offense that requires sharing of the ball regardless of what is happening on the court? While the latter is probably unlikely to be the case, you just never really know until the games are played. So much depends on the players buying into and committing to a workable scheme.
To this point, the Hawks have gotten by on talented players, despite the fact that we sometimes undervalue what we have. The front office and ownership seem to think that the current roster has enough talent, but that it could be better utilized. How much better?
What are your thoughts? Is there safety in numbers?
If you wanted another big man….
You got your wish. Well, sort of. With the addition of Kenny Gattison, the Hawks put a tough guy on their bench, but he'll be wearing a suit full-time. A gritty and effective role player when he was in a jersey, Gattison should be bringing that attitude to practices (we certainly hope). Fortunately, he also brings some experience on the sidelines, having spent a couple years in New Jersey under John Calipari, and more recently several years in New Orleans, including under Byron Scott. One wonders – will he be another "big man" coach, same as Ty Hill, or will his area of concentration be elsewhere? What do you think of this addition to Drew's staff?
On The Horizon
Regardless of how we think of them, some members of the Hawks front office are wanted by other teams. As Hawks beat writer Michael Cunningham reports, director of pro personnel Steve Rosenberry is apparently headed to Portland to become an assistant GM. Meanwhile, current Hawks assistant GM David Pendergraft could be taking Steve Kerr's old job in Phoenix. So what does that mean for the Hawks? While we probably don't care too much as fans who the new director of pro personnel and college scouting would be (seriously, did you even know who Rosenberry was before this?), there is perhaps a modicum of interest in who Sund would replace Pendergraft with, should he be moving to the Arizona desert.
Having been in the league well over 30 years, Sund surely has numerous contacts, and for every guy who wants to be a GM some day, there's a guy who knows that becoming an assistant GM is stepping stone leading up to that in most cases. If I recall correctly, Pendergraft is currently over all scouting. So, whoever would replace him (again, if he goes) would presumably take over that task and responsibility. But what do we think of Pendergraft? Has his scouting experience and expertise shown to be worth something, or would we be anticipating an upgrade? To be totally honest, there is only so much to work with. Under Sund and Pendergraft's watch, the following guys have been drafted by the Hawks – Jeff Teague, Sergei Gladyr, Pape Sy, and Jordan Crawford (correct me if I've missed anybody). Even with Teague, we still don't quite know what we have. However, we shall hopefully enjoy finding that out.
Thoughts, my fellow Hawks fans?
(UPDATE): One more thing. Did you see this one coming, and does it make Boston a tougher matchup for us?
August 4th, 2010
7:59 am
I think it's going to be a realy good season. Can't wait to see what the drew man has in store with this offense. You heard it hear frist. Marvin Williams has a breakout year.
August 4th, 2010
8:25 am
Marvin Williams….breakdown year (Wait, that was the last two years)
August 4th, 2010
8:32 am
Movement of the ball will definitely be better, but in order for it to be completely effective, everyone has to to buy in. So even if Joe has the hot hand, we shouldnt go back to the stagnant Iso offense, because we become 1 dimensional again. Keep the offense going, so the opposition will have to be aware of all players on the floor, not just the hot hand…….Its possible players like Marvin, who were considered to be under-achievers, should really floursish in this system, while our mainstays like Joe, Smoove, and Boss, numbers may drop a little, but efficiency should definitely be on the rise……..I feel Teague should be the starter. I know he may still be raw, but there's no better way to learn than experience, and he's still mobile(unlike Bibby) to drive to the cup and stay in front of opposing PG's. Let him take the lumps and learn from them. Lett Bibby come off the bench and be a spot up shooter, and the mentor to Teague……….the anticipation is KILLING ME!!!……….CHUUUUUUUUCH
August 4th, 2010
8:53 am
give me one good reason i should have confidence in larry drew? b/c in my mind its all on him
August 4th, 2010
9:11 am
Wow, another giant ego on the Celtics? Screw coach of the year, Doc Rivers deserves the Nobel Peace Prize!
August 4th, 2010
9:20 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Kris Willis, Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham said: AJC's fan blog: Hawks Fans: Safety in numbers and changing landscapes http://bit.ly/ac8mgh [...]
August 4th, 2010
9:21 am
Let's see: still small in the middle, stll no proven scoring small forward.
August 4th, 2010
9:45 am
KG, Shaq (not official yet), J.O'Neal, Big Babe and KP (healthy before the playoffs)…. That's safety in numbers. Oh yeah, Rasheed hasn't retired yet…
August 4th, 2010
9:53 am
Tweet from Kevin Durant. How can you not like this kid:
"To be honest I appreciate Kenny smith comments but I'm not on dwade melo dirk Paul p level, I ain't done nothing yet…but stay tuned!"
And the Hawks 126 mil dollar star won't even apologize to the fans for his comments that was misunderstood (at best). Joe just don't get it…
August 4th, 2010
10:03 am
nire go back and reread my comments in my last comment to you regarding why the owners changed their tactics on spending. i never focused my comments on shaq but on getting a big and there were some out there but that is all you spoke about. yes, i would have liked shaq. my comments were civil and spoken as a fan, admittedly. also think once the heat got the threesome the askg saw the handwriting on the wall though it may be short sighted like their non-use of mle last year and this. as a fan i want to see improvements made to the roster, simple minded yes, but as a fan.
as far as your style of canniblogging you might take heed to these sage words:
What's the old saying about walking a mile in someone's shoes before criticizing them? Try keeping some modicum of that in mind before you bash them. It's a good rule to live by in life …. author is nire. go figure.
August 4th, 2010
10:05 am
Enlighten me. When did Joe say he was at the level of those guys? Because I see zero connection between Durant's statement and Joe, except that it gave you an opportunity to bash Joe.
August 4th, 2010
10:07 am
Tell you what. Stop criticizing people for things you clearly don't know and I'll stop criticizing you for criticizing them for things you clearly don't know.
August 4th, 2010
10:13 am
I think Mo Evans will get consistent minutes, but it will not be enough for his liking.
LD has options, because he might go with Jamal at PG, Mo at SG, and JJ at SF for spot minutes. Or JJ at SF and Jamal at SG.
Just like the effect LD will have on the Hawks, I think the loss of Thibodeau can affect the Celtics and their defense negatively.
Dont you have to be in shape to play in LD's pentangle offense? I can't wait to see what shape Collins is in.
August 4th, 2010
10:17 am
Big Ray, what a great place for Shaq to land at. A veteran team that does most of it's damage on the half-court set. He is going to be very effective there. The Hawks are now no better than fourth in the East…
August 4th, 2010
10:50 am
I guess we have to wait until Sund is convinced that the combo of the CORE and Drew won't exceed the 2nd round before we see any significant change. And until then, the ASG shouldn't expect any significant change in revenue. Kind of stuck in an ugly cycle… team needs more revenue before increasing spending while fans need something new before spending their well-earned disposable income on this product. Meanwhile, players aren't likely to accept a discount to play here because we're not legit title contenders AND due to a sometimes disinterested fan base. Someone has to go out on a limb to break the cycle, either ownership, the fan base or a player who can make a difference (and will accept less). I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Atlanta sports fan to come to the rescue.
August 4th, 2010
10:56 am
I never say Joe did. I admired the humblest and a swagger in the statement by KD. I post several of his tweets in the past and it's easy to see why he is well like by the public. As for Joe, I would have preferred Joe apologize to the fans (or at least clarify his statement) but hey, I guess that's not something he's interested in doing it. Just b/c I criticized a guy, doesn't mean I'm bashing him.
August 4th, 2010
11:04 am
nire, i guess then if you wont heed your own words, it is live by the sword and die by the sword.
not going to say i am sorry that i have my opinions, just like you. are you the only one here that is allowed to criticize? are you really that omnipotent? you say things like you know all and are sadly proven wrong over and over. even after your diatribe with stevew who seemed to do his research over and over while MC was away to end in, "well if MC heard it maybe it is so and i wonder why?". you also speak of me without knowing any of my background.
so shall we all sit here not critique or criticize and sing kumbaya?
well here it is maybe we can sing it in rounds:
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya,
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
feel better alrteady.
nire, ludicrous.
ray, nire seems to want you to shut this thing down because people criticize the hawks and management. blog police are out in full force, watch out sir this thing will come to a screetching halt if we heed his warnings.
gee, isnt there a woody hater around these parts that criticized him to no end? did he know what EXACTLY woody had to put up with this two penny operation, how his hands were tied to limited rosters. did he walk in his shoes before he criticized a guy who avg 50 wins a year in two seasons? though not a strong supporter of woody i am open to the idea we might just find out how good woody was. just maybe. in the mean time nire, at least stop the self-righteous hypocrisy. nire, there is no grace to your objections, especially against astro, melvin and others. what was it that someone said last week to you, just because you yell bullsh!t it doesnt make it fact.
btw, i would love to see you walk up to horford and tell him he doesnt know what he is talking about because he is not a gm or a businessman, as if you do. too funny, loved that image from the first time you made the statement.
August 4th, 2010
11:07 am
doc, well, I feel better. Can we sing "Let There be Peace on Earth" next? Please?
August 4th, 2010
11:07 am
@Melvin, from last blog.
Spend your $$ as you please, but keep these things in mind:
* The expectation is that our current personnel will be used differently under LD.
* Hawks have played well against the Celtics recently…and they are getting older.
* The Heat will be a hot ticket.
* With the Wiz adding John Wall, we have the most interesting division in the NBA.
* There are flex plans to get less than a season ticket.
Do I expect a better home record this season, NO.
Do I expect a very good home season, YES.
Hope to see you at some point in the Highlight Factory.
August 4th, 2010
11:17 am
Manny T,
Come on, you should know I'm just talking trash. You know I will be at the Philips Arena this season. I at least want to contribute some monies to help this organization…
August 4th, 2010
11:26 am
Jeff Schultz' current blog captures a lot of what the city is feeling about the Hawks during the off-season. I suspect that one of the primary objectives of any sports team's off-season is to keep/get fans excited for the coming season (something the Falcons and Braves do quite well here). If you're the OKC Thunder, I'm sure it is keeping fans excited. If you're the Knicks, it's getting fans excited. I think the Hawks have utterly and completely failed to excite their fan base this summer. Cutting Woody free was a good and needed step. Resigning Joe was the right move. Jordan Crawford was a nice late draft pick-up. But none of those moves moved the needle of excitement. Casual fans will likely look at the roster in November and ask "what changed?" And let's face it, it is the casual fan that makes the difference between 12k in the arena and 18k in the arena. The fan who likely never blogs about our Hawks.
August 4th, 2010
11:29 am
Looks who else agree with you, Astro and I.
From Sekou twitter page:
RT @docktora: this is dead on…hawks ownership mess continues to hold team back. amazing they're as good as they have been http://bit. … about 1 hour ago via web
August 4th, 2010
11:33 am
not going to say i am sorry that i have my opinions, just like you. are you the only one here that is allowed to criticize? are you really that omnipotent?
Nope, and you can stop being disingenuous, thanks. I am fine with you or anyone else criticizing based on the things they do see and know. But criticizing people for things that you have no f*cking clue about? That's different, in my view. My tack is that I avoid criticizing based on things I don't know. I generally assume that people have good reasons for doing the things they do absent reliable, concrete evidence to the contrary. You don't seem to live by that rule. So I call you out.
If a layman was criticizing your medical practice based on speculation as to what they thought your motivations and behind-the-scene actions were, I have a feeling you'd be miffed. But you have no problem doing it to other people. That's my issue.
Feel free to criticize based on things you do see. You'll notice that while I get into long debates about whether players and coaches deserve particular lines of criticism, I don't say that fans shouldn't criticize players or coaching as a rule. The reason is that we actually do see with our own eyes what goes on during games. So criticizing a player or coach is fair game in my eyes (unless it's stuff like "I don't think Player X works hard enough in the offseason," because we don't know what most players do in the offseason or "Coach X doesn't do enough of Y during practice," because we don't see what goes on during practice).
I also have no problem with people criticizing particular free agent signings or trades – as long as they stick to discussing the personnel moves themselves, without speculating as to the behind-the-scenes stuff as they don't know. You don't like the Crawford trade? Fine, neither did I. Don't like the re-signing of Collins? Fine, neither do I. Think other players would have been a better fit than Collins for the team? Fine, so do I. Those are all things that present no problem to me, because we know that Collins has been re-signed.
But there's a line past which you cross into the realm of things that we, as fans, don't know. And that's the line I don't like to see crossed. Saying "the Hawks only signed Collins because they weren't willing to spend the money needed for a better player" crosses that line because none of us knows why Collins was signed or what other players (if any) were considered and rejected by the front office for that roster spot. Pretty much all talk of a front office's motivations and reasoning are based on things that we, as fans, don't know and don't see. Thus, I view most of that talk as "crossing the line." I criticize people when I think they have crossed that line.
It's not hypocritical. If you think it's arrogant of me, fine. I freely admit that niremetal is arrogant (Matt has softer edges, but blogs sharpen those edges). But I strongly believe that crossing the line I just discussed is also arrogant. Every time you, Melvin, AJ, or anyone else cross the line and criticize people's motivations or finances when you do not, in fact, know jack sh!t about those things, you are being presumptuous and arrogant. I will keep calling you out on that arrogance as long as you keep it up.
August 4th, 2010
11:37 am
And PS – I have zero problem if you call me out when you think I'm doing the same thing. I always try to recognize the limits of my knowledge about stuff, but sometimes I cross the line without realizing it.
August 4th, 2010
11:45 am
Lastly, I admit that my line is somewhat arbitrary because (and now I'm getting into the realm of philosophy and metaphysics), we don't really know anything with certainty. As the old saying goes, "I know that I know nothing." Our eyes, ears, and brains can deceive us. But I view discussing people's motivations and speculation as to their behind-the-scenes actions as particularly dangerous ground to walk into.
August 4th, 2010
12:00 pm
Yes, the bloggers have kept up the discussion. While the comments are thoughtful, they are more cannibalistic during the summer when there isn't another game in 2 days to provide momentum.
The more thoughtful folks come here and the less thoughtful, more evil folks tend to stick with the beat blog…until several of their personalities get banned.
Only 6 more days until the full season schedule is released.
All that said, Laissez Les Bon Temps Rouler …and have a fun way to see who is coming & going in the NBA
August 4th, 2010
12:17 pm
If people were only critical of things when they had an above average amount of knowledge, the blogosphere, talk radio, cable news punditry and twitter might all collapse into a black hole
The lack of insight is the engine behind most modern dialog. Does anyone think the ASG ownership & management spend as much time as bloggers do, trying to solve their team issues? If they did, I could predict that they would ALL fall victim to sleep deprivation!
Stay thirsty for the knowledge my friends.
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
August 4th, 2010
12:26 pm
"I always try to recognize the limits of my knowledge about stuff, but sometimes I cross the line without realizing it."
August 4th, 2010
12:34 pm
But do we actually know Socrates said that?
August 4th, 2010
12:40 pm
the hawks are gonna be just fine. just wait and see. we will have over fifty wins again and will be in the top four or five teams in the east, we will be in the playoffs, and we will have another chance at gettin further.
August 4th, 2010
1:09 pm
…then how about this one…
I know nothing.
Sgt. Shultz, Hogan's Heroes
August 4th, 2010
1:12 pm
as a hawks fan i should know better than to beleive the asg saying they were going over the luxury tax to get better or going over thirteen players to have a deep bench that was stupid of me but as a georgia native i can only anticipate next year because there is one constant i will always be a hawk fan and proudly that will never change despite not having good ownership but hey maybe this is all leading up to something incredible for next year? maybe they will utilize the pieces they will have or maybe it will be another pointkess summer of adding a rookie, and vet min player because i cannot hold back the excitement of josh powell coming here or that we trust jason collins with more minutes , personally i thought joe smith is the best bench player we had, but all in all if we dont resign randolph morriss or the guy who played defense so well (sadly his name has slipped my mind ) i will look at this summer as a positive one
August 4th, 2010
1:14 pm
mario west that was his name
August 4th, 2010
1:32 pm
I didn't realize that Doc Rivers had discussed bringing Ty Lue on board in an assistant coach/player development role. What a ridiculous idea. They obviously must not know that having an assistant on the bench who is <40 will keep them from winning another ring. Maybe we can tell Shaq that we're a better choice because our coaches are older.
August 4th, 2010
1:35 pm
Doc Rivers is an f'ing idiot. He obviously doesn't know that having a young assistant coach will impede the team from winning another ring. What a fool.
A. Sherrod Blakely: #Celtics asst. coach Tyronn Lue working out, hopes to make a comeback. Worst case scenario? Back w/#Celtics in player development role. Twitter
August 4th, 2010
2:14 pm
i dont really know how any one can justify paying jj all that money. sorry to bring up an old sore subject. this man ripped the fans who pays his salery & never had the decency to say he was sorry. didnot every one see how he hurt this team with his ballhoging we should play uptemp. i cant ever remember him pushing the ball on a fast break. i dont think he is capable of leading a fastbreak. i certainly cringed how he tried to take over a gamewith 6 minutes left it usually meant disaster for us. i dont want him taking the last shot in the game. i think he is a choker as he always
has proven in the playoffs. i just cant see him in an uptemo ball movement offense where he would share the ball
August 4th, 2010
2:18 pm
nire, your line is more than arbitrary, it is self deceiving. there are no lines. you always better study the intentions of folks and try to come up with some rationales nire or you will fail miserably. the good ones that do this succeed and it is a knack or intuition that folks have. i saw it first as a management consultant then as a doc running my own practice as well as serving on boards for the hospitals and businesses in the community. you better look deeper than what is face value is the way i see it and call it. competition is out there. do i get it wrong? occasionally, but most of the time pretty close including predicting the pull back once lebron decided he was joining bosh and wade in miami. that is what makes riles so good. by that move he neutered the less committed and bold competition the same way the lakers did in grabbing barnes. they got stronger and the opposition they might have to face in a seven game series got weaker and which is best? probably the latter as they have to deal with it for 82 games.
as far as dividing a line between players, coaches and management not sure why. do you really think you can see it all because it is one the court? how about the way the team went south in disagreement in the end? that wasnt on the court, now was it? guess we cant bring that one up by your lines. how about the lack of enthusiasm lebron had in the series they lost, all mechanical on the court or was something eating at him and his psyche? in todays world of communication someone gets the scoop. players and coaches are under the same types of issues as management and intentions better be known to understand why things are done. for example astro called it right on woody not using teague to save his job and get wins. he said it in an interview. no one told him teague needed to come along all the while he had a pending contract. coaching scared is how some read it. not factual but the right call.
for years we debated the chill thing. in case you missed it, because you did the first go around, he confirmed what i had said had happened between the two negotiating parties. i posted it, i am sure you saw it but quietly dodged it and didnt comment on it. it was chills first interview where he could say it out loud because he was free from the hawks and their management style. yes, it is also important to notice the great corporations and the not so. so far this one has not shown the distinction of what it takes at the top to do what it takes to want to see as a fan and a season ticket holder. i think that is a fact, but by your standard not sure that was something i could say.
as far as the metaphysics thing yeah, i get that pretty good. it is a holographic universe with each and every person having a vastly different viewpoint. i accept that. i dont take it personal nor call out people and call them names or speak or write derogatory of them. usually keep it civil even in disagreement. i think if you go back and look you may find out you dont. maybe you like to do that, i wont read into it because that might cross the line. you do seem to make it personal and probably cross the line there more than anyone this side of truth. so yes, i will call you out to be more graceful and less offensive to make your point. you are certainly educated enough to know the difference holding one of the better minds here on this thoughtful blog, maybe not capable for some other reason.
nire, please, at my age dont arbitrarily try to make rules or draw lines for me as you know and qualify they are really not there, so it makes it sound even sillier on your part. not sure why you frustrate yourself to make them. that is your stuff. let us still talk basketball and the owners are a part of it. sorry, they are as much the problem as the solution so i will continue to make reference to them and their shenanigans right or wrong in my own eyes. by the way the off season is where the glare goes to management, this is their spotlight time to get it right and build for the future or fail miserably not to be seen until novemebr. again, i am not sure why you say they are not part of our discussions and conjecture. that is what papers have done for years with editorialists and beat writers and now as bloggers we get to do it rather than go to the local coffee shop to have these debates.
August 4th, 2010
2:52 pm
Great job. Mr. knowitall can't be wrong. I wonder who was right about Marvin? Unbelievable!!!!
August 4th, 2010
3:24 pm
for years we debated the chill thing. in case you missed it, because you did the first go around, he confirmed what i had said had happened between the two negotiating parties. i posted it, i am sure you saw it but quietly dodged it and didnt comment on it.
It's amusing that you consider Chills' statements sufficient to prove his statements as fact, since 1) he didn't say he knew what had been offered, only what he "thought" was offered and 2) it's only one side of the story. He was never even in the negotiating room, and was going based on what his agents (who have their own agenda) told him. Again, I have inside info on that particular thing. I don't give really give a damn whether you believe me on that or not, but I do. You're wrong about the sequence of events. The offer from Greece was in the works well before Josh even hit the free agent market. Common sense should tell you that's true, and I've tried to explain why many times. But hey, keep selectively reading articles, and ignoring evidence (and common sense) to the contrary. It's what you've been doing for 2 years, so why stop now?
As for players/coaches versus management, I'll tell you what – the next time I speculate as to a player or coach's motives without explicitly acknowledging that I am speculating, let me know. I never accused Woody of coaching scared. I accused him of coaching predictably and not making adjustments. And even on the not making adjustments bit, I repeatedly said that it's possible that Woody had tried to make adjustments but that the players had tuned him out. In any case, I never speculated as to WHY he did the things he did. As far as I can remember, I confined my criticism to what I observed of the team on the court, and didn't speculate as to the underlying reasons why he did things the way he did. That's a bright line that I try not to cross.
Same with Josh. Again, as far as I can remember, I never called the man stupid. I often criticized the way he played the game, but didn't diagnose precisely what was causing his shortcomings or how he could fix it. When he was struggling with his free throws, I said it didn't appear to be mechanical, and if Mark Price agreed, then his next step should be to see a sports psychologist. I didn't pretend to know what was causing Josh's issues at the line and I certainly didn't draw general conclusions about Josh as a player or a person. I just said he should talk to people who might be able to figure it out.
It's a fine line, but I don't think it's arbitrary. If I see it with my own eyes, I feel comfortable talking about it. I don't see what goes on in boardrooms or at negotiating tables. The only people who do are team officials and players' agents. Not even beat writers and players really know that stuff; all they have to go on are what other people, all with their own agendas, tell them. You can ask MC and Sekou and they'll tell you the same thing (I know because both have told me that – every sportswriter has been burned a few times by an agent or team "source" who fed them misinformation to advance their own agenda). So unless I talk to someone who was there (which I can only do about 2-3 things that involve the Hawks' front office), I don't feel it fair to criticize people on those grounds. And when I see someone who does criticize people on those grounds, the devil's advocate in me comes out because if I were in ASG's shoes, I'd be pissed that people who have never seen my team's balance sheets or been at a negotiating table were acting as if they knew why certain things did or didn't happen.
I'll try to be more civil in my criticisms of you in the future. I'll be even more civil if you, Astro, and Melvin can simply admit that 1) what the balance sheet looks like and what gets said at the negotiating table are essential in making proper decisions on constructing an NBA roster; 2) you don't know what goes on in the Hawks' balance sheets or at the negotiating tables; 3) that your assertions thus are based on very limited information.
August 4th, 2010
3:34 pm
"I don't think I ever got a formal offer," Childress said, trying to recall all the back and forth that has gone on since the summer of 2008. "All I wanted was a deal. I just wanted to feel like they wanted me to be a part of their team. And I never had that feeling. It was always, 'we'll deal with him when we have time.' Personally and professionally, I felt like I acquitted myself the right way. I came to work and did what was asked of me. and then when it came time to negotiate, it was like 'we'll get to him whenever we can.' At least that was the attitude that was conveyed to me."
Just sayin.
August 4th, 2010
3:39 pm
Ironically, Rod, the same source that I had for the Childress stuff confirmed something that you've said about Marvin. Sadly, I can't really say much about it because my source's cover could easily be blown. But you can have satisfaction in knowing that I die a little inside every time I remember that one of your rants about Marvin actually turned out to be spot on.
August 4th, 2010
3:39 pm
I wih I were excited to see this team hit the floor this season, but as of now it just feels like a continuation from last season…..
I'm so bummed with ASG….and tell me this: Why the F would Al stick around after this season. As much as it will hurt, Al will be leaving us.
I blame this on Joe and ASG……….I'm bitter
August 4th, 2010
4:20 pm
What is this, UFC Basketball blogging?
August 4th, 2010
4:21 pm
August 4th, 2010
4:22 pm
It's August, Ray. What the heck do you expect?
August 4th, 2010
4:37 pm
westurd I'm looking forward to seeing the new offensive and a more consistant man-on-man defensive. We're still a jumpshooting team, which is more of the problem than just the size itself. But, hope that the guys learned the kind of execution they need to bring every night (especially in the Playoffs) to be successful. I'm also looking forward to seeing how far Teague can grow in one season.
I'm also disappointed about the summer, but I also didn't really expect some big moves to happen.
August 4th, 2010
4:47 pm
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the man-to-man defense also. I'm sure that the previous coach was making an awful decision by not having Bibby and Jamal play man-to-man defense. No doubt that they will be much improved just because their new coach demands it. Once that screen comes, I'm sure that Bibby will appear Billups-like as he physically defeats the offensive scheme and disrupts the play. It is oh so simple, only our idiot former coach would make guarding the PGs in this league appear challenging for someone like Bibby (or Jamal with the lousy SGs that flood the league). Who cares about installing schemes to match the personnel, demand the personnel to adapt to your scheme. Guard your man or else… no need to add complexity to something as simple and easy as guarding an NBA backcourt player.
August 4th, 2010
4:50 pm
Ray you should have been here during the singing session earlier. I tried to get the fellows to sing a little "Id Like to Teach the World to Sing" but then doc threw a spit-ball at nire and war broke out again. But at least we got in a good rendition of Kumbayah before the wheels fell off.
Speaking of which, come on guys, join with me…
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round…
What's wrong, you don't know the words?
August 4th, 2010
5:00 pm
"Ironically, Rod, the same source that I had for the Childress stuff confirmed something that you've said about Marvin. Sadly, I can't really say much about it because my source's cover could easily be blown. But you can have satisfaction in knowing that I die a little inside every time I remember that one of your rants about Marvin actually turned out to be spot on."
Wow. I guess i should say thanks. Hopefully he will prove me wrong and turn into a great player in this motion offense,as so many people seem to think (LOL). I will continue with my initial phrase that I won't be holding my breath.
August 4th, 2010
5:03 pm
Yeah big ray we are here to talk management
Wait did somebody say management
Slowly I turned … Step by step…
August 4th, 2010
5:50 pm
I think you guys will want to read this… I don't particularly like what this dude writes but…
I particularly like the following passage:
"It's just that all these raw stats tell you that the Cavs were so, so much better with O'Neal on the pine. That when things weren't Shaq-centric, Cleveland tended to dominate. The easy answer to that? Don't pass Shaq the ball. Don't make him Shaq-centric. To these eyes, Cleveland didn't. And yet, the team's offense stunk with him out there. Tom Haberstroh nailed the best part of it last week:
LeBron with Shaq last year: Cavs +3.4 pts per possession. LeBron without Shaq? +15.7. That experiment was fun wasn't it?
That's per 100 possessions, and with the average game working around 93 or 94 possessions, nearly 16 points is a pretty big deal. That's not an insignificant number."
August 4th, 2010
6:49 pm
oHHHHH BOYY!! iT'S HOTTER IN HERE THAN IT IS OUTSIDE!! This is more like a "BRAWG" than a Blog. People even got sources & !^*#. It's my hope that the teams stacking all the talent end up handicapping themselves, and imploding. Goodbye Shaq'. Might have been nice, but you probably can't outrun Dick Bavetta at this point. Talk is good here, but do lets play the games. The Hawks may turn out just fine. They need one more pick-up. His name is Big Heart, from The Hard Knocks Institute of Preparation.
Peace…From The Most Native
Oh Yeah…..DING DING
August 4th, 2010
6:55 pm
Are we trading canniblogging for Mixed Martial Offensive Blogging? Yup, we have become the M-MOB.
Able to tear into someone with a hong kong fooey chop
August 4th, 2010
8:29 pm
I look forward to Connor's defensive concepts, but he will have his work cut out for him. If Jamal is struggling on D, does LD take him out and play JJ major minutes?
If teague can play well from the start, that will make LD's job and Connor's job easier.
August 4th, 2010
9:01 pm
Just takes gas money Ray, just gas
August 4th, 2010
9:03 pm
Once again, you're on point. (no pun intended)
August 4th, 2010
9:06 pm
To all:
Do all, or most of you sit in the same section?
August 4th, 2010
9:21 pm
Native Son,
I can't speak for everyone else, but I sit in
Section 406
Row ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Seat 1
It's located in Philadelphia.
Vava sits in the Section 411, but he's a few alphabets further back, in Portugal.
August 4th, 2010
9:25 pm
big ray
i hope you are right. i just have a feeling that the ball was in jj hands always was because he demanded it. he never seemed to want to gve it back. since his phoenix days his ego has grown tremendously along with his salery. his style of game sort of excels because of iso play.
August 4th, 2010
9:49 pm
I don't think anyone knows the cause of the change in JJ's playing style since he left Phoenix. He might have gotten more egotistical and demanded the ball more. Or maybe he was just doing what was expected of him in the offense. The things that stick out to me are 1) in Phoenix, no one ever accused him of being a ballhog; and 2) his assist numbers in his first year here were quite good. My theory has always been that when Harrington left in '06, that's when Woody decided that the offense would consist of a series of ISOs for JJ.
With Woody gone, I think/hope JJ will play the role assigned to him in Drew's offense – he'll still be the #1 option, I'm guessing, but he'll be starting possessions off the ball instead of as lead guard. In that framework, I think JJ's efficiency will go up and the ISOs will go way down. But it's possible that it's too late, and playing ISO ball for so long has made him lose the sick catch-and-shoot and quick-move skills he showed in Phoenix.
August 4th, 2010
10:00 pm
Mr. Assist
Doesn't Mr. Johnson also lead his team in assists?
August 4th, 2010
11:52 pm
Sounds like I may need a lawyer to proof-read my Blog Contract, before I comment on here?
I may get sued or 25 to life – IF I can't substantiate my opinions of what I see.
Be Careful …. You may lose your credibility on a damned Blog!
Looks like Truth-Serum has shut down MC's Blog for the night as well.
When the Cats away – The Mice will play!
He He He.
Nite-Nite everyone, there's always tomorrow.
August 5th, 2010
12:08 am
careful dear, trouble lurks out there.
August 5th, 2010
12:20 am
A law school education is a terrible thing to waste……
Does Nire make any of you long for the days when Ando could actually sway your intractable position, and somehow made his arrogance palatable?
Baby Boy Ando is due in two weeks, for any of those wondering just how high the cliff I fell off of was.
I can't help but notice that checking in here, after six months or so, finds that some things never change…..
XXOO (love 'ya, mean it)
August 5th, 2010
3:48 am
The Hawks are built for speed. So we are an even worse fit than CLE was for Shaq.
There is NO WAY he would fit our ball club given Drew's publicly announced offensive strategy. NO WAY.
Furthermore, with an inexperienced PG in Teague and an aging and defensively challenged one in Bibby, everyone would just screen and roll us to death.
It would be the switching D all over again. Just with a different format.
So, in my book, all assertions on how bad Shaq fit in CLE (and in PHO) are pretty solid indications on how he would fit here.
CLE should have played up tempo against BOS with Hickson and Varejão, just the way we got to win 4-0 our regular season series against them.
Instead, CLE went slow and fell into BOS' trap.
Conversely, Shaq should fit in nicely in BOS' geriatric, low possessions slow ball and he should also fit in there for other reasons not connected to the in court play.
NONE OF THAT would happen in ATL. He would be a hindrance both in and outside the hard court.
August 5th, 2010
5:30 am
Boston just got older and slower. Can you see Shaq running out with Horf, Smoove, and Marvin? They'll have finished the play before the diesel can pick up enough speed to find second gear.
I'm much more interested in seeing more of what Native Son calls for: toughness. Getting a glimpse of that in Zaza, one of our toughest guys already, adding boxing to his summer regiment. That should help his footwork. I know it's euroball, but he ate Gortat's lunch the other day. He'll never be that archeotypal "big man" center, but a Bill Lambeer kind of intimidation player. I'd be happy with that.
All I've heard is that Powell is like minded; a glue guy who makes others better.
If these two guys come in spouting the "NO LAYUP" philosophy, things could get special.
Plus, if they use the bench, where guys are ready to play, it's not so bad having a starter foul out. Foul out, someone else can finish! Just NO LAYUPS.
August 5th, 2010
5:35 am
Zaza boxing. I LOVE IT. Get some of that KG! Imagine putting up layups on Bill Lambeer…he'd park your panzy azz in the second row.
August 5th, 2010
6:00 am
fully in agreement. we should become fast and gritty (and even dirty) ball club.
don't have size? do it with spunk and a bit of a mean spirit.
get anyone coming into the lane whacked. lets lead the league in technicals and in flagrant fouls.
you can all bet your a**es that size would no longer matter by mid season and we would be respected.
August 5th, 2010
6:48 am
ando enjoy the fall big fella.
August 5th, 2010
7:16 am
Another thing to keep in mind. Remember Jamal's first couple games with the Hawks? He came off the bench, and was looking to get other players involved.
Woody put an end to that real quick, telling Jamal basically that he wants him to lead the league in scoring off the bench. So I think JJ's style of play was encouraged by Woody.
I think JJ will be willing to pass the ball more, because he can be more efficient scoring, and he wont be so tired down the stretch or in the playoffs.
August 5th, 2010
7:19 am
As for the Shaq discussion, he is a good fit in Boston. With Perkins out, Shaq might be the starter for the first few weeks of the season (which is what he wants).
They dont run as much as we do, and Shaq probably highly respects Doc, Ray, Pierce (who Shaq named "The Truth") and KG. Can't say the same about the Hawks.
August 5th, 2010
7:56 am
The Thrilla' in Manilla'
(Clear Image)
Fantastic Blog Topic, but we have a classic battle of sorts going on here.
Doc throwing jabs and floating like a Bee – Nire bytch slapping and shadow boxing and looks like drmaryb hanging onto ankles trying to break it all up – or Not?
No MSG?
Well we will just have to see about that:
Zo in one corner & The Worm in the other and Stan Van Gundy hanging on by a thread, in the MSG!
doc is Zo … nire is Rodman and drmaryb is SVG!
Now, I would pay to see that as a prelude to the Hawks playing the Orlando Magic in a round 2 play-off series. Right now, this blog has more entertainment value than a Hawks basketball game. At least doc and nire bring fire, heat and passion to their games and a little cussing makes it all the more spicy.
That's all a fan is asking for from the ASG and the Hawks Players. Gives us a reason to turn that car back around, give a reason to come down to the Phillip's Arena and buy the good seats and beer drenched popcorn.
And in the off-season? "Give us something to talk about" – Bonnie Rait –
The FA season is over and like all crack-babies? – We Get Nothing!
(unless, you count smoke blowed up your azz.)
We are down to discussing Kwame and Boone? Maybe a SL player?
You can put perfume on a pig – but, it's still a pig.
August 5th, 2010
8:32 am
Thrilla' in Manilla'
In this corner, we have doc – throwing jabs and connecting like a bee.
In that corner, we have niremental – bytch slapping and dancing on a tee.
He jabs and connects …He ducks and flee …. Oh my, I'm the referee and I'm on his knee?
Reminds me of the good ole' days in MSG:
Zo (doc) and The Worm (nire) in a Play-Off match and SVG (drmaryb) hanging onto the knee of his star player. Those days are gone fellas, when The Commish was up for a good ole' fight and the Pistons were allowed to bury bricks and chain-saws beneath the paint and decapitate the opponent, if he came any where close to the basket.
Then came the hand-check rule and hard fouls became level one and level two and three strikes?
You're out! (sounds like Baseball to me).
The Pepsi Generation is here – too soft and sweet.
We grown & sexy folks grew up on Coke – It's the Real-Thing! We had a Coke and a Smile1
and, It's been a while….
I'm just enjoying the doc and nire battle, unlike the ASG: These guys are bringing, fire, passion and gas to the fight!
That's all a fan is asking from the ASG: The FA came and went and they gave us nothing – Nothing to talk about! My Bonnie Rait CD gave me more tunes than these fat-cats.
What are these lame duck owners doing over there? Like their team – They got swept out of the Free Agency by an aggregate of 101 points!
BTW, i got $50 on doc.
he he he
August 5th, 2010
8:38 am
Vava, they have size if they use it. Collins sat on the bench last year. Often Zaza and Joe Smith played minor minutes because Woody was afraid to pull his starters less he lose a game. He lost a lot of games because people wore out; not because they fouled out.
The change in coaching will not only be a better ball movement, a better rotation of players, and hopefully more toughness as people know they sit if they let their guy score layups.
Win, lose, or draw…this kind of ball is more interesting to watch.
I like our chances if they can buy into this kind of play. We need FIRE, not size.
August 5th, 2010
9:05 am
DR MB, you know the story starts at the top, always does. great employees dont make up for poor managers. they quit and leave for better waters.
i see a whole lot of hoping here with heavy blue skies mixed in and nothing based on fact or past performance. first question, how do they respond to a new coach his system a huge beat down in the final four games they played and the askg doing nothing to improve the team? is it really going to be addition by subtraction as so many of you are pinning your hopes on and following the askg lead? of course that means allowing woody's contract to end. are we still looking for organic growth and continuity to lead us to the promised land? has the askg been nero playing the fiddle while other teams burned down their own well honed and developed team over five years where the others revamped in three or less? basically do we have the players to compete in the newly remodeled east, now bigger and stronger than before? we will see early as that has been the m o of this team the last few years, to come out strong and coast a bit towards the end. gonna be fun. we should have things pretty well sized up by mid december and be in full form here remembering the sultry days of summer when it was all put in place.
August 5th, 2010
9:30 am
No doubt that Shaq as an on-court asset would have been questionable. But in order to run, you need to rebound the ball and that is where he could have helped. Not to mention that Shaq is an above average passer and in a motion offense, there is little doubt that he would have easily found a cutting Teague or slashing Jamal. He may not have been a perfect fit, but I'm sure they could have found a way to use him. But no need to beat that horse, it is as dead as Mr. Ed.
Ando, go buy a $100 worth of diapers on me. Tell lil Ando that Uncle Astro wants a a few courtside seats when he grows up to become the first player/head coach/GM/NBA insider in NBA history.
IMO, Joe's issues last year were related to the arrival of Jamal and an expiring contract year. He probably felt added pressure to be more of an offensive force. At the same time, Horford and Smith did become better offensive players and Jamal did win SMOY all during the season. So while he was less than efficient and made some poor decisions during the past season, I wouldn't go so far as to call him selfish. My guess is that one of the things that Joe enoyed hearing from Drew was the accountability speech. My guess is that many plays were not executed as designed in the previous seasons and that Woody would allow guys to get away with it, but Drew has stated that won't happen under his watch. My guess is that Joe has had to pick up some of his teammates not because of physical limits but mental limits and that wears on him during the season. I think the accountability issue goes far deeper than stuff we may be able to discern (like poor shot selection or careless turnovers). I think those are the issues that result in a lack of trust… because one teammate doesn't trust that the next teammate will do what the team has practiced. Personally, I believe that any new head coach could have addressed those concerns but presumably, Drew should be that much more effective in that area because of his first hand knowledge of the issues and the culprits.
Also (back to trust), the players no longer trusted Woody to hold players accountable, and I think that is where he lost the team. Not so much in the play calling or substitution patterns, but in ensuring that the sweat equity placed in practices, film study and team meetings was enforced during game time. Once the guys recognized that one did not follow the other, all heck broke loose. That's my speculation.
August 5th, 2010
9:35 am
Good for Acie.
Memphis Grizzlies general manager Chris Wallace said Wednesday night that the team intends to sign former Texas A&M point guard Acie Law. Wallace, who attended the public memorial service for Lorenzen Wright on Wednesday at FedExForum, said the Griz hope to complete a deal with Law, the Aggies' third-leading career scorer, in the coming days. "We've been in discussions with Acie's representatives and hope to enter into a contract with him soon," Wallace said. HoopsWorld.com reported Wednesday that Law, 25, a career backup entering his fourth NBA season, has agreed to a one-year deal with Memphis. Law, who was traded twice last season, worked out for the Griz earlier this week. Memphis Commercial Appeal
August 5th, 2010
9:39 am
Astro My point about the man-on-man defensive is not to switch before you need to. To many times Bibby or Joe would switch when they weren't even fully screened yet. I would hope that the new system will encourage staying with your man as long as possible. I don't want other teams dictating match-ups. For the most part I'm fine with the off ball switching because Smoove, Marvin and JJ can guard each others man. I really have a problem with the PG to C switch, I thought we should have trapped those Pick and Rolls 80% of the time.
August 5th, 2010
9:51 am
kw, I understand. i was mostly ridculing Drew's stated "guard you man or else" statement shortly after he was hired. My sense is that he has spent a decade thinking of how he would ruin a team's offense if given a chance and maybe 10 minutes thinking about defense. Hopefully, Connor will be the yang to Drew's ying.
Back to Acie, Conley seems like he is no longer held in high regard with the Grizzlies but there was also talk of Mayo getting a shot at playing PG next season. I wonder if Acie is going there to be a 2nd string or 3rd string PG?
August 5th, 2010
9:53 am
how he would RUN a team's offense (ruin, bad Freudian slip).
August 5th, 2010
10:00 am
Astro, I hope he doesn't ruin our offensive, because as bad as Woody's ISO were, the other sets he ran were efficient according to the numbers.
I agree on Acie, I think he was just hurt to often when he was with us.
August 5th, 2010
10:02 am
Move your cursor next to Bibby and Zaza's names and get a little chuckle at the commentary. For some reason, I didn't find Joe's comment all that funny.
August 5th, 2010
10:12 am
I had no doubt that Woody would be there.
Current and former NBA players in attendance included former Grizzly teammates Bonzi Wells and Stromile Swift, current Grizzlies Zach Randolph and Tony Allen, former Grizzly and Memphis product Lester Hudson, former Hawks coach Mike Woodson and NBA agent Aaron Goodwin. "This was a celebration of life," former Tiger and NBA player Elliot Perry said. "People really loved Lorenzen. When you talk about Lorenzen around the community, you're talking about a giant, a person who had a positive attitude about life."
August 5th, 2010
10:28 am
Ray, Drew should NOT be under any pressure for the next 2 seasons. After all, he's likely the best coach available at that price.
August 5th, 2010
10:32 am
What's "disturbing" about that trend? The portion about the league paying a portion of the salarie? Because the league pays that portion of every veteran's salary who is signed to a minimum contract. The same is true of Shaq:
August 5th, 2010
1:01 pm
Big Ray, as always…nice timing and great prelude in light of yet another Sund and ASG inauspicious decision. I'm hesitant to blame it all on Sund…some how I feel like the eight stooges are the ones pulling most of the strings.
Doc, thanks for the Kumbayah song…I can really use a laugh right about now. That was one of my Graduate Professor's…theme songs. She was a ding bag of course…so when I first seen Astro use it in his blog…I was cracking up…saying to myself…no way AJ…don't bring that dig bag back up. However, now that I think about it…she did kind of remind me of Nire…very intelligent…but dingy. lol
@Big Ray, I expect the Hawks under LD to resemble the old Phoenix Suns…pre Shaq. They will get up and down court…score a lot of points, tease the fans, and struggle in the playoff…once they are force into half court sets. Sounds like the same ole Hawks…hmmmmmmmmmmm.
At lease, they will be fun to watch. lol
August 5th, 2010
1:08 pm
I hope Acie is able to turn it around in Memphis. I liked him at A&M (he won the Bob Cousy award his senior year). He made big shot after big shot for that team.
But injuries derailed him with the Hawks, and he might have lost his confidence under Woody.
As for coaching under pressure, I think LD is under pressure (even if he isnt the top 10). Woody averaged 50 wins the last 2 years, and made the second round.
LD has the same players, so with organic growth and an improved offense and defense, I think he will be under pressure.
Because whats the point of firing Woody and hiring LD if he only leads us to 45 wins and a first round playoff exit?
August 5th, 2010
1:53 pm
OB, there is no doubt in my mind that ending the Woody era was the right thing (regardless of what Drew does). It was the next decision that I don't love (choosing Drew). But given the ASG's fondness of sameness (not to mention what appeared to be a less than efficient process for hiring Drew), I simply don't think any owner will be interested in thinking about a new coach until the 2-year guarantee expires.
My prediction is that Nate McMillan gets gone after this season (new GM and he can't get out of the 1st round) and he takes a year off before becoming the Hawks head man in the 2012-13 season.
August 5th, 2010
3:12 pm
I think woody should have been let go 2 years ago when sund gave him the extension.
Another possibility is doc rivers. This is the last year of his contract, and I can see him taking a year off, so maybe ASG would pay him whatever he wants to coach the hawks.
August 5th, 2010
3:19 pm
Well my blog must have gotten eaten up. This I will leave out my comments about ASG.
Doc, thanks for the laugh.
ANDO, congrads on the little one.
Big Ray and Astro, as always…GREAT STUFF!!!
Nire, another Kumbaya from me too broooooooooooooooooooo. heh heh
I'm out folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 5th, 2010
5:09 pm
OB, are you suggesting that a few weeks after the fever pitch of the Celtics series, Sund should have fired Woody? Do you really want to put that in writing? Because that's well, not one of the smarter things to suggest.
August 5th, 2010
5:32 pm
He, me, and many others have put that in writing. I think it was a bad to not fire Woodson then. I suspect that the reason why they didn't is because they thought it would "look bad" after our "surprise" showing against the Celtics (it shouldn't have been a surprise given the Hawks' performance at home and the Celts' weakness when it comes to defending opposing wings). That's how the Hawks were being portrayed in the media, anyway. But Woodson had not shown the necessary ability to make in-game adjustments that you need to win the big games. We saw a repeat of that each of the past two years. I think it was apparent even after the Boston series, but I think Sund and/or ASG was worried about the perception of firing a coach who had just "led" his team on an "unexpected" playoff run. If that's the reason why they did it, then I think it was a coward move. If not, then it was just a straight-up bad move.
August 5th, 2010
5:46 pm
Nire ,
The disturbing trend is that these minimum salary types are what we seem to be going after when it comes to backup big men (with the exception of Zaza). How has it worked out for us so far (RandMo, Lorenzen, Collins, Joe Smith, etc)?
I think Zaza is a decent backup, and maybe we can get better consistency out of him when he gets more consistent PT, I don't know. Is he the rugged, "hold it down in the post when Al is out, or ill-matched against a bigger/heavier center"?
On another note, I have found the sparse commentary about Jason Collins kind of funny. On the one hand, the word is that Gearon and possibly others felt Collins was underutilized by Woodson. On the other hand, the word is that he will be a more effective contributor since he's lost weight and is expected to be in better condition.
Ok….which one is it? And losing weight didn't do a damn thing for RandMo…
August 5th, 2010
5:53 pm
Nire ,
Last question was rhetorical, of course.
August 5th, 2010
5:58 pm
1) I think Zaza is one of the best backups in the NBA. My gripe about this hunt for yet another big man has always been that pretty much anyone we could have even had a prayer of getting on the free agent market would not been as good as Zaza. That includes Shaq, in my opinion. The only possible exception is Jermaine O'Neal, but he obviously isn't the type of center people are talking about.
That, more than anything, has been my gripe. Al's comment about wanting more help notwithstanding, we have an All-Star starting center and a good backup. Against 75% of the centers in the NBA today, I would rather have Zaza than Shaq. That goes up to 100% with Al. Really, if you're looking for someone better-suited than Al or Zaza (both of whom are not afraid of playing physical), I think all you're really looking for is an immovable object. For that purpose, Shaq's only real edge on Collins at this point is that Shaq still gets respect from refs.
Oh and in any case – Dwight Howard wasn't the reason we lost to Orlando. For all these reasons, I don't like the focus on getting another big man. I think our depth on the wing will prove to be a bigger issue this year, especially if Joe or Marvin gets hurt.
2) 1) Why can't it be that Collins both will be more effective now that he has lost weight and that Drew will utilize him better than Woody did? It's kind of odd to pin it on one or the other. Hell, there might even be a link between the two – if Collins thought he wouldn't play much anyway, did he really have much motivation to get in better shape?
August 5th, 2010
5:58 pm
August 5th, 2010
6:00 pm
Also, on Collins – am I the only one who remembers that he was a very good "immovable object" defensive center not too long ago? Anyone?
August 5th, 2010
6:04 pm
I'll just be damned, an ANDO sighting.
Congrats on the baby boy soon to come.
To me, the losses in Boston were so egregious that any "glow" from winning three here was well eclipsed. Not only that, but you could see even then that, as O'Brien has said Woodson had no Plan B other than "try harder at Plan A".
That is, his lack of ability to adjust was very evident by then.
August 5th, 2010
6:11 pm
What's "not too long ago" to you?
I haven't thought of Collins that way since around 05.
But I have high hopes that you are correct.
August 5th, 2010
6:24 pm
2 years ago, the Pacers stumbled down the stretch, allowing the Hawks to sneak in as the 8th seed.
Combined with how we got blown out in Boston for 4 playoff games, and woody's abysmal W-L record up to that point, I think he should not have been renewed.
Also, at that time, Marvin, bibby, JJ and Zaza Would all be free agents within 2 years. If rick had brought in his Guy, he would have had a chance to evaluate them under another coach.
But considering BK tried to fire woody and promote Drew, but was not allowed, I wonder if sund would have been allowed to let woody go back then…
August 5th, 2010
6:48 pm
I count this as one of the most endearing and utterly delicious moments of the 09-10 Season:
Collins in Cleveland frustrated Shaq 5 or 6 possessions in a row to the point in which fumes were coming out of his (Shaq's) ears.
Unfortunately that run of possessions ended on a questionable block foul called on Collins on a stumbling Shaq drive…
Well, the call was not that bad, Collins was still moving his feet, but just barely…
During that period, the Hawks got back into the game, in particular due to the fact that up until that point Shaq had been authorized by the refs to simply stomp and run over Al in the low post and was doing a lot of damage (he should have been called for at least 3 or 4 offensive fouls).
If I am not wrong, Shaq kind of lost his wheels from that point onwards and was not a major factor.
Then, during the second half we had "the shot clock incident"…
August 5th, 2010
6:52 pm
I was thinking more like '07, maybe even '08. I remember watching a couple games where he got really physical with Dwight and almost completely shut him down. Granted, both guys have changed since then, but honestly I thought Collins played great D against Dwight in the playoffs but the refs jobbed him.
I always gave the caveat that the biggest difference between Shaq and JColl at this point in their respective careers is that Shaq gets more respect from the refs. Sadly, that makes a big difference. Honestly, take the respect from the refs away, and Collins (who always has been a good, fundamentally sound defender) is a better defensive player than Shaq (who wasn't a great defender in his prime) is today. But refs will always have more of an influence on the game than they should.
August 5th, 2010
6:54 pm
Oh, and let me telling you something:
In the event that Shaq fits well in the Celtics, neither of you should come back to this blog and say that we should have signed him.
As I mentioned yesterday, Shaq's game does not suit our style and our roster and on the contrary it suits the Celtics' geriatric half court game.
AND, this is the HUGE and: Shaq will get with that uniform A LOT MORE calls going in his favor than he would if he had signed with us. Two fold at least.
August 5th, 2010
7:37 pm
Man on Fire!
VaVa74: fantastic reading. Great Stuff on the Shaq -vs- Collins situation.
I have never really seen Collins play all that much as I don't follow the Nets!
I would really like to see Jason get some burn this next season.
I enjoyed your response to me on page one! I am with you all the way on that
ASKG – Atlanta Spirit-Killers Group! They're so bad we had to rename them.
I have NO earthly idea what they ate thinking. I hear they travel a lot and are
never in town at the same time! Pretty hard to run a NBA franchise when
You don't like each other. They got a lot of nerves to be talking about:
Oh yaeah … And we LIKE our Core?
Heck … They don't even like their GROUP!
ASKG! Hey doc, we couldn't even make this stuff up?
Can you only imagine what the League and Players are saying behind our backs?
Not one FA tagged Atlanta as a likely destination! Shaq included!
Sure, this is a great place to live and party – but, you wouldn't wanna' play there.
Hey .. No problem – they got a really NICE airport, you can leave in style and go anywhere you like!
That's why I love Joe so much! Because, he really wants to be here.
He moved his family here from Arkansasl, and on all accounts they love Atlanta's
Lifestyle too … Coming from Arkansas I guess anywhere is good.
Joe found a beautiful lady and wife and has a new born on the way.
He is really settling into the South! Now, we just need to grow
Al and Josh into perennial All-Stars and we look real good moving forward.
In spite of the owners!
August 5th, 2010
8:48 pm
Vava74 and Nire, you can't be serious about comparing Collins's career to Shaq to support your point. If Collins is in better shape…I too believe he can contribute and help the team…however, I wouldn't get carried away.
Let's not forget we are talking about a guaranteed future Hall of Famer in Shaq…can Collins even be mentioned in that breathe….pleasssssssssse. I hope Sund and ASG wasn't drinking the same Bull SH**T as the both of Us.
August 5th, 2010
9:55 pm
I think Vava and I were both talking about Shaq (age 38) versus Jason Collins (age 31) now, not the course of their respective careers. So take that straw man BS elsewhere.
August 5th, 2010
10:25 pm
Nire, straw man is that BS you keep trying to spin to justify the ASG. Just saying.
August 5th, 2010
10:27 pm
You clearly don't know what a straw man is. Have a good night.
August 5th, 2010
10:33 pm
Thanks, good night to you too.
August 5th, 2010
10:39 pm
As much as Shaq gets bash, when was the last time a Shaq led team lost to the Hawks. Was it in his Miami days?????
August 5th, 2010
11:42 pm
Where is the Wizard of Oz when you need him.
Scarecrow, strawman, close enough
August 6th, 2010
12:11 am
nire, have you had a seizure or become a parody of yourself? you demean shaq but admit the askg are stupid. you ask if i am still in 2006 when i state shaq is the best out there for what we need and then you make a comment like collins has some game. well i looked up some stats. collins NEVER came close to meaningful stats even in his "prime". his last season where he avg about 23 minutes a game was in 2006 i believe and shaq's worst mpg was just last year and they dont even compare. geez did you fall off a ledge and hit your head guy? call an ambulance dude. vava, did you just go along for the ride or did you infarct a part of your cerebrum when nire fell?
here are the stats to refresh yours and everyone else's memories that shaq has fallen but not that far and if zaza has his numbers next year that shaq had last year we will ask that he be comeback player of the year.
here you go served up:
shaq …. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/847/career;_ylt=Anfs5jit96yTr8PKH5l3fyQBPKB4
August 6th, 2010
12:12 am
got caught in moderation and dont know when i will get out so i have broken it up .. to finish:
collins …. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3530/career;_ylt=Anfs5jit96yTr8PKH5l3fySaPKB4
no way collins should ever be held in a conversation comparing him to shaq …. never. shaq avg 3 to 3.5 blocks a game his career until the last two years or so and collins never got that close. what a joke or severe case of selective amnesia to say colins was a better defender and say maybe he just didnt get respect from refs.
August 6th, 2010
12:23 am
who has the BS now comparing shaq at 37 with 23 mpg to collins most recent year of similar numbers again about 23 mpg when he was about 27. come on nire, quit being the bully. collins 4 and 2 … shaq 12 and 7. who are you guys kidding?
mike, they havent a clue in this one. no wy they can make an argument on this one without becoming pure straw themselves, no way.
August 6th, 2010
1:29 am
If you're going to set up straw men and not even attempt to address what I actually said, then don't pretend that you are responding to me. What I said was:
"Honestly, take the respect from the refs away, and Collins (who always has been a good, fundamentally sound defender) is a better defensive player than Shaq (who wasn't a great defender in his prime) is today."
Now, try again.
August 6th, 2010
1:31 am
And apparently you think blocks are the only measure of good defense?
Seriously doc, just shut the f*ck up and don't talk to me for a few weeks.
August 6th, 2010
1:42 am
Great on-ball post defenders aren't always guys who rack up blocks. Wes Unseld, Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, Horace Grant, Karl Malone, even Kendrick Perkins to some degree. Playing defense in the post is more about not letting your man get positioning and forcing him to either pass or take a tough shot rather than attempting to get a block.
I never said Collins was as good as Shaq or that he's had a career that's comparable to Shaq's. I said that today, looking at the players without taking into consideration the influence of refs (who whistle Collins for touch fouls while letting Shaq hack away at his leisure), Collins is a better defensive player than Shaq.
In any case, I'm not even kidding doc. Your bullsh!t posts directed at me are just pissing me off at this point, and I've got enough to be pissed off about right now without having to deal with your crap. So I'm gonna stop talking to you, and ask that you don't address me in your posts at all until you are willing to address what I say, and not some caricature of what I say.
August 6th, 2010
3:19 am
Geez Matt, don't sugracoat it. Tell us how you REALLY feel.
August 6th, 2010
7:57 am
Unfortunately, the refs are a huge part of the game. That's part of the reason why JJ does not get more foul calls (combined with him not selling it).
That's one reason why Dwight gets away with some of his play while our guys get called for the foul.
I liked the Shaq signing because he gives us more front court depth, and he helps to get the refs on our side, potentially giving us the benefit of more calls.
August 6th, 2010
8:15 am
nire, i wont piece meal it for you but this is just a start:
"Also, on Collins – am I the only one who remembers that he was a very good "immovable object" defensive center not too long ago? Anyone?" or even, ""Honestly, take the respect from the refs away, and Collins (who always has been a good, fundamentally sound defender) is a better defensive player than Shaq (who wasn't a great defender in his prime) is today."
never was he that way, with my direct response:
"you ask if i am still in 2006 when i state shaq is the best out there for what we need and then you make a comment like collins has some game. well i looked up some stats. collins NEVER came close to meaningful stats even in his "prime". his last season where he avg about 23 minutes a game was in 2006 i believe and shaq's worst mpg was just last year and they dont even compare."
you do remember your snide remark dont you about me wishing on the shaq of 2006? the shaq of 2009 would suit me fine for a back-up is all i was saying. doesnt seem to be too harmful of a statement nor untrue.
nire, you got probs then take them somewhere else rather that raising them here. i am sorry if you are frustrated in other areas of your life but here is not the best place to blow them off. i realize some do and that is my intuition talking, maybe many of us do and if it keeps us from beating the dog or saying something we regret with the boss then okay. just dont take it personal if you get personal with others and are called on it.
nire, collins has avg a foul for every 6 to 7 minutes of his career. he has never been the defender you made him out to be , much less last year or any other year, so i disagree and show you numbers. maybe he is the collins of several years ago as you suggest, just no one has seen it, woody certainly didnt see it last year or he would have played more and until he carries it on the court and proves it, you are just creating fiction. you sound like ken creating his vision of how it should be this year. it is all cool and supposed to be fun here. only, i imagine you are the first to have ever put shaq and collins in the same comparative sentence and i wasnt the only one to bring objection to it as i think sautee and mike brought it up to disagree. now where is the straw man in all that i ask?
if you contiinue to make outlandish statements nire then i, among others will call you on it, expect it from any of us. if you do it for fun or to be the devil's advocate then dont take it personal and see where others can do the same with you. funny your best comeback is you were always mis-quoted or it is a strawman which probably is an irrelevant and specious argument to always bring up anyway. i dont think i mis-quoted you at all, just disagreed with you and said why. fight by the sword …
August 6th, 2010
8:41 am
Seriously doc, not even reading it. Don't talk to me.
August 6th, 2010
8:52 am
And in case you think I'm alone in thinking that Jason Collins is a good defender:
Only fools think that stats are the measure of a good defenders. I named a few above (Unseld, Rodman, Laimbeer, Grant, Malone, Perkins), guys who are great defenders but never got many blocks or steals. Bowen and Battier are examples on the perimeter. People who actually watched him play know that Collins was a good defensive center for most of his career, which is why he was the starting center for the Nets over Mutombo in the NBA Finals against the Twin Towers as a second-year player.
Collins was – and I believe still is – a very good defensive center.
August 6th, 2010
8:57 am
too funny then nire. fire too hot, so you left the kitchen.
August 6th, 2010
9:11 am
i dont take much credence in that draftexpress stuff when they really say he has little else to offer except six fouls a game nire. i also said that before i read it that he makes a foul every 6 or 7 minutes. yes he gets in the way but unable to do so without sending someone to the foul line. the others are great defenders and collins shouldnt be mentioned with them. isnt that a funny way to argue as well by putting someone in the company of greats to make your argument stronger. is that the opposite of straw? does anyone ever say collins is a great defender, just that if he has a strength then it is ONLY on defense. i didnt see it last year saw him fat and slow and i imagine that is not the collins they speak of in draft express, not sure the copyright on that argument. i was also the first to comment collins was put in to do a job in the playoffs without being at game speed by woody and it was unfair of woody. yeah go back and check it. just the same he is only worth fouls at 31, shaq could do the same at 38 and maybe provide a rebound or bucket in the mean time.
i think we both agree for the mle exception the hawks probably blew it. i dont have the figures and wasnt at the table but maybe they could have coaxed his pride a bit.
look i am not here to make your life bad. i am here to talk basketball as are others. again we all have valid reasons for making our statements right or wrong. did you come here to have everyone agree with you? wrong place, that is what the liars table is about.
August 6th, 2010
9:19 am
Sautee, nire and OB, I think you guys are suffering from 20/20 hindsight. I think that you are forgetting how bad the Hawks were in the previous 10 years. How insignificant they were in their own city. That Celtics series ignited the casual fans passion for the Hawks for literally the first time in a decade. I think you are also forgetting the aura of the Celtics that season. They were that year's version of the Heat (albeit older). The series was supposed to be the beginning of their coronation ceremony, pundits didn't say "based on the regular season, it may be a close series". No, they pretty much said "Celtics in 5 (at worse). Losing in Boston? Yeah it was bad but I don't recall too much outrage about a first time playoff team with a bunch of youngsters losing to 3 HOF-types on the road. If the Bobcats take the Heat to a 7-game series in May, I wouldn't expect LB to be fired. And that is a good analogy to the Hawks-Celtics series.
Sure, there is no doubt what 20/20 vision says, but let's not ignore all of the variables that went into the decision to keep Woody AT THE TIME. Namely, that the ASG secured more revenue than ever before, the Hawks were the youngest team in the playoffs and had just ignited the city with an exciting brand of ball. (There was also an unsettled ownership situation that was much more problematic in 2008). Lastly, I think it is fair to conclude that if given a choice of a risky or cautious moves, the ASG will choose caution, inertia and sameness. They reportedly offered BK a new contract that summer, he turned THEM down. Gearon has yet to fire a Hawks GM or head coach.
I could see firing Woody after the Cavs playoff series, but after the Celtics? No way.
August 6th, 2010
9:30 am
Seriously, can anyone honestly say that upon seeing Collins in a Hawks uniform for the first time last year, that you didn't think "dang, I thought we signed one of the Collins twins, why are they both sharing one uniform"? At least, that what I was thinking. Dude could only effectively guard a single immobile player last year in the condition that he put himself.
August 6th, 2010
9:36 am
Doc, Dang, even after that wonderful song you sang for Nire…he/she isn't man enough to admit defeat. Wish I were clever enough to come up with one of MannyT's famous acronyms.
O well…keep doing yo thang…spin-doctor. heh heh
August 6th, 2010
9:58 am
All right doc, I just read your 7:41 and as I suspected it was a load of BS.
1) Your and Mike's depictions of what I said about Collins is a classic straw man argument. MannyT provided the link:
You commit the straw man fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn't endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have undermined the opponent's actual position. If the misrepresentation is on purpose, then the straw man fallacy is caused by lying.
Blog or not blog, setting up straw men is either disingenuous, intellectually lazy, or both. That's what you did. What I said was that Collins was a very good defender not too long ago, and that I think that he is as good a defender as Shaq today – at least if you take away the influence of the refs. I never, ever, ever came remotely close to saying that Collins was on Shaq's level in terms of all around game. I never even said that taking into account the influence of the refs that Collins was as good a defender as Shaq. But you spun out absolutely disingenuous bullsh!t arguments:
collins NEVER came close to meaningful stats even in his "prime".
I never talked about Collins' stats. This is an easily refuted argument that I never made. Straw man.
no way collins should ever be held in a conversation comparing him to shaq
i imagine you are the first to have ever put shaq and collins in the same comparative sentence
These are misleading spins on what I actually said. I didn't compare Collins to Shaq generally. I compared him to Shaq 1) as a defender, 2) today (not over the course of their careers as a whole), and 3) ignoring the influence of refs (which I repeatedly said was important and something that could not be ignored in reality). These sentences don't recognize that there were significant qualifications in the sentence you keep harping on.
collins 4 and 2 … shaq 12 and 7
I never compared Collins' scoring and rebounding to Shaq's. Only his defense. This is an easily refuted argument that I never made. Straw man.
the others are great defenders and collins shouldnt be mentioned with them. isnt that a funny way to argue as well by putting someone in the company of greats to make your argument stronger. is that the opposite of straw?
No, and this is another straw man. I used a common method of refuting an argument – pointing out high profile counterexamples that show flaws in an argument. You relied on stats in your post to argue that Collins was not as good a defender as Shaq. I countered that not all good defenders put up good defensive stats, and provided several high-profile examples of that (without saying that Collins was on the level of those guys). I went on to give my criteria for a good defensive big man: Playing defense in the post is more about not letting your man get positioning and forcing him to either pass or take a tough shot rather than attempting to get a block. I then said that Collins was a very good defensive center – not that he was Hall-of-Fame level like Unseld/Laimbeer/Rodman/etc, but that he was "very good."
I never, ever said that Collins was as good a defender as Unseld/Laimbeer/Rodman/etc. I never "put [him] in the company of greats." I used the greats to counter your stats-based argument. I did not use them as a comparison to Collins. That is an easily refuted argument that I never made. Straw man. I think you know I wasn't comparing Collins to them and just were being disingenuous.
So stop it. Address what I say, not some caricature of what I say,
August 6th, 2010
10:01 am
Letting Woody's contract expire right after the Boston series would not have been an easy decision. But fans were excited about the Hawks team, and in my opinion, I dont think letting Woody go would have made a difference to the fans.
How did we win the games in ATL against the Celtics? If I remember correctly, was there anybody who thought it was because Woody coached his tail off? His W-L record was bad, and we got blown out every game in Boston.
Ironically, we got blown out every game against Orlando this year, so history does repeat itself after all. Unfortunately, Rick does not have a crystal ball.
Plus, in every sport, GMs like to bring in their own guys anyway.
As for Collins, I am also of the opinion that Woody did not utilize him effectively last year. How-ever (in my Stephen A voice), he was way overweight last year. And that's on him. Where is the motivation to get in game shape? Or is that Woody's fault too?
August 6th, 2010
10:36 am
Shaq avg 36pts and 12rebs vs the NJ Nets (Jason Collins) in the 2001 finals and named Finals MVP…
August 6th, 2010
10:46 am
OB, so I guess you're in the "team won without a coach" camp based on those comments. I guess that's why we could afford a minimum wage coach, huh?
Explain how a coachis supposed to utilize an out-pf-shape player? How is Shanahan utilizing Hansworth up in DC?
August 6th, 2010
10:48 am
Jason Collins wasn't the starter yet at that point, Melvin. He was a rookie and the backup. Shaq did most of his damage against Todd MacCullough. It was the next year that he got promoted to starter, played solid on-ball D against Robinson (and sometimes Duncan), was widely viewed as more effective than Deke at manning up in the post, and began to get recognition as a defensive center.
August 6th, 2010
10:59 am
Also Melvin – I think you meant 2002, not 2001. The threepeat years were when Shaq was in his prime and there wasn't a soul in the NBA who could slow him down, much less stop him. Measuring Collins' defense by how he did as a rookie against Shaq in his prime is kind of an odd standard, since not even Mourning was slowing Shaq down then (Shaq posted 40 and 11 against Mourning in their last meeting in '02).
August 6th, 2010
11:22 am
Boys Gone Wild – Senior Edition!
I Love this blog! It's too early for Beer and Popcorn, but my Cafe' and Boiled Egg is working just fine. I saw an epic battle this morning and looks like the
Infamous Straw-Man is dead! A casualty of war it seems!
Elvis said he was leaving the building and the last man standing was Doc!
I couldn't tel who was winning, because the spit was flying so thick?
I couldn't see.
But, I had $50 on doc from earlier this week and looks like it just doubled.
Seriously, all jokes aside: From what I see Nire, You and doc actually are in
agreement and are pretty much saying the same thing differently.
There may be some statements, "Lost in Translation" or simply put
taken out of their context which is a very common fallacy of intense
In reality, you both agree we need a back-up Center with a defensive skill set
primarily. Shaq would have given us that in a half-court "slow down" series, but, at the expense of hurting the team on the fast breaks. Unless, he just stayed
back on offense. Unfortunately you can sub players in the flows and throws of a game, only in time-outs.
Now, we all know Collins is no Shaq, and it would be disingenuous to accuse
each other ot that with a straight face. Some facts are just that obvious.
Nire, it does seem like you are angry in general and like to argue just for the sake of argument. Hey man, it's just a silly blog about a silly game of basketball!
For entertainment purposes only, nothing more nothing less!
Let's just have some fun on here.. No one cares if we all agree – it's really OK.
It's better conversation when we don't.
Can't we all just get along? – Rodney King -
August 6th, 2010
12:48 pm
Would you agree that Joe Smith had a right to complain about last year? Because there were stretches in which he would contribute, but not be heard from from in the next half, or sometimes for the next game.
As for Collins, its his fault for not staying in shape. I agree there. But during the season, Woody talked about needing him for the playoffs.
So although Collins was out of shape, I think Woody could still have used him for certain stretches. But he hardly did.
August 6th, 2010
2:04 pm
OB, we were talking about Collins, where did Joe Smith come from? Smith was poorly used in the 2nd half of the season. I recall watching him brick most of his shots off the front of the rim early in the season (likely due to lack of leg strength). I'm not here to argue Woody's use of his bench (although I kind of doubt that Collins or Smith would be in tremendous demand). Woody had to go this summer, no doubt about it. But let's not blame him for Collins being fat, Smith having no legs to start the season or the RandMo being an absolute stiff. Remember when some blamed him for Salim, Acie and Solo?
August 6th, 2010
4:01 pm
about this: "Sautee, nire and OB, I think you guys are suffering from 20/20 hindsight. I think that you are forgetting how bad the Hawks were in the previous 10 years."
What does that have to do with it being oh so obvious after that series that Woodson couldn't make an adjustment to an untied shoe?
My argument then AND now is that the Boston series was the first time we had seen Woody coach in a series – where adjustments are paramount. And he was exposed, no? In fact, if not for Joe playing out of his mind for the only "elite" game of his career, it would have been 4-2 Boston.
Fan climate be damned, if you can't make adjustments, then you can't make adjustments. That series was the first proof (because it doesn't show as much in the reg. season) of Woody's major flaw.
As O'B has said, perhaps Sund thought he was was on thin ice since the owners had stopped Knight from cutting Woody loose on 3 occasions.
August 6th, 2010
5:28 pm
Only way to get more calls from the refs is to earn it. Shaq has earned the calls, Collins has not. No way the two players can be compared without the foul calls. Would Jordan have been as good as he was if the whistle was not blown when somebody blew on him. What about Kobe, or Wade? Jason Collins should not be compared to Shaq in any way. No comparison.
August 6th, 2010
6:37 pm
State of the Salary cap for all teams…
August 6th, 2010
7:10 pm
Big Ray,
August 6th, 2010
7:24 pm
Jason Collins should not be compared to Shaq in any way. No comparison.
August 6th, 2010
9:39 pm
Astro Joe
Didn't Joe Smith have a pretty severe thumb sprain last season.
August 6th, 2010
9:45 pm
Yall wanted a backup SF where it may be in the works…
August 6th, 2010
9:54 pm
If they sign Pape Sy, I'm gonna frickin go postal. I just HOPE that is spin from Sy's agent, hoping to get some leverage with Le Havre.
August 7th, 2010
4:28 am
"His flummoxing Shaq in a few plays against Cleveland last year is in some ways akin to Marvin scoring 20 or more points in a game. Both were nice to see at the time, and both left you wanting more and thinking more could be had….but neither delivered."
Ray, that is pretty unfair. Collins only had a couple of opportunities to show his fat ass on court and I would not be very far off in saying that that was HIS ONLY non garbage minutes under Woody and that he showed then that he still had some D game beneath that fat armor.
August 7th, 2010
4:38 am
Here is the exact source:
Nothing solid. Seems only Agent's bullsh*t to try and get a better deal for his last year with Le Havre.
August 7th, 2010
9:50 am
1) I don't want the Hawks to make the mistake of signing a player who isn't NBA-ready just because it would score me some points in arguments about whether ASG is cheap.
2) Even if Sy has a year left under his contract, he might be using the prospect of jumping overseas as leverage to get Le Havre to renegotiate. I don't know what his contract says, and it's certainly possible that Sy is locked in and can't leave without his team's say-so, which would mean that you're right about this story being fishy. But my guess is that the contract contains some "safety valve" clause allowing Sy to jump to the NBA. If so, then his agent might gain an edge by feigning the possibility of Sy signing early with the Hawks. I hope that's all that's going on, because unless there's stuff about Sy that we really, REALLY don't know, it's hard to believe that a 22-year old who played 14mpg on a bad team in France is NBA-ready. As with Gladyr (who I think will be NBA ready in another year), I would think Sy needs at least 1-2 years of significant experience in Europe.
August 7th, 2010
12:06 pm
Sautee, I was discussing the validity of Woody's 2008 contract extension.
August 7th, 2010
12:07 pm
Pape Sy may be to Drew what Mario was to Woody, his personal pet project and his private pit bulldog.
August 7th, 2010
12:19 pm
If I remember correctly, MC reported that Sy paid his way from overseas to come workout for the Hawks. So my impression is that he really wants to be in the NBA.
So even if he is negotiating a new contract from his overseas team, I think he will have opt out options.
August 7th, 2010
12:35 pm
Ray, niremetal,
Pape Sy is reported in all french press as a PG ("meneur"). I don't think he is supposed to be the guy who would provide SF depth.
Also, in Europe he is reported as being 1,95/1,97m which means 6′4 1/2" / 6′5 1/2" not exactly what we need at that slot either.
Maybe they measure player's height bare feet in Europe rather than with shoes on… but even so, by adding 1" we would still have an undersized SF in our hands.
August 7th, 2010
12:44 pm
Didn't the press release about the Collins' resigning specifically mention his conditioning?
August 7th, 2010
1:26 pm
Poppy – I didn't know you could do it like that?
Pape Sy
Woe! Didn't think we would hear his name again. Definitely seems like
Coach has a "Man Crush" on this guy. Why Not?
He fits the – Bill! (pun intended). Afford-Ability?
He's affordable and has ability.
Am I clever or what?
August 7th, 2010
6:56 pm
Horford – Breaking Newz!
Just in @ 547 PM on Rotoworld:
Coach Drew has informed Horford he will be logging major minutes at PF next season. Horford is excited, "That is my natural position."
Josh will move to SF, and Marvin to the Bench.
Zsa, Collins and Powell will see major time at Center.
Drew is making moves, in spite of the ASKG.
Drew is moving the roster to their natural positions it seems.
Now the onus is on the GM to build his roster with the best players available, the days of hiding players on the bench is, well – OVA!
August 7th, 2010
7:01 pm
Why couldn't Woody do that?
August 7th, 2010
7:02 pm
Why couldn't Woody do that?
Rotoworld also commented:
If they were gonna' move Al to PF? Why didn't they sign Shaq?
August 7th, 2010
7:23 pm
Thibbedeau comments on Shaq in Beantown @:
Sorry, IDK how to post links on B-berry.
August 7th, 2010
7:27 pm
August 7th, 2010
7:36 pm
1) Playing Josh at SF is a terrible idea. If we want a better SF, the solution is to trade for one, not put Josh at a position that takes him further away from the basket.
2) Al Horford is not a natural PF, no matter how much he thinks he is. Al Horford grew up in an era where most centers were 7 foot or taller, strong, and slow. Today, they are typically 6′10-7′0, very strong, and much quicker than they used to be. Al got used to playing PF in college, where the model of tall, slow centers is more prevalent. He got used to playing alongside Noah. But in the NBA, the prevalence guys like Ben Wallace, Perkins, Lee, Jefferson, Noah, etc successfully playing center and PFs with perimeter skills like Rasheed, Garnett, Jamison, etc shows has shown that the game has changed. Al's mindset might not have changed with it, but that doesn't change the fact that most successful centers in the NBA today are 6′11 or shorter.
In the NBA Horford grew up watching, he was a PF. Today, he's more suited to playing center. His combination of length, strength, and quickness gives him an edge over most opposing centers, which is why he made the All-Star team. In my opinion, him making the All-Star team should have put to bed the idea that he's a natural PF. I don't know why it hasn't.
August 7th, 2010
7:38 pm
Aye … Blog Monster won't let me post the link of Thibbedeau
comments on Shaq signing with Boston.
He is very luke – warm to it at best. Talks more praise of Perkins returning than
Shaq being there.
Just google: Thibbedeau on Shaq in Boston and you will get:
Probasketballtalk(.) nbcsports (.)Com / 201
espn (.) go (.) com / blog / boston / celtics / pos …
Also, Shaq says the teamis built to win at:
w w w (.) Projo (.) com / celtics / content / sp _ bk …
great stuff. I typed it spaced out to trick the Blog – Monster. LOL
August 7th, 2010
7:39 pm
*He also got used to playing alongside Noah.
That was supposed to be part of a thought that it honestly might have been an accident of recruitment that he ended up playing PF. At many schools, he would have been pressed into service at center. But the reason so many college centers don't make it in the NBA is that they are too slow, and the reason many "short" guys succeed at center in the NBA is that height is less necessary at the position than it used to be.
August 7th, 2010
7:55 pm
I feel you bruh! I see you make very valid points of views on this.
Why does rotoworld get Hawks news before us Fan Bloggers do?
That's wierd – isn't it?
I guess Drew wants to do the things the opposite of Woodson, he sat there for
6 years and saw it didn't work! If the ASG ain't gonna' loosen the purse strings?
Then aye … That man gotta' play the hand he is dealt.
Think about it this way nire: Why sit three centers on the bench to start every game and start 2 PF's every game? ……
If the Pundits say, "The Hawks are too small up front to win in the play – offs."
Maybe, this will force the GM to trade one of the starter level PF's for a proto-type Center?
Or, if you look at Grand-Daddy's logic, forget about positions …
Just play – Basketball Players. Roll the ball out there and put your best 5 play makers on the court. That definitely moves Marvin to the bench – day one.
Also, per Grand-Daddy? If we have a five man attack on offense – then
Josh at SF can still play INSIDE and not take jumpers. On defense, you can not hide the TRUTH in a man to man system. Just assign the guarders to the offenders based on match-ups!
IDK, nire? What do you think? Iam very interested in your points of view on this topic.
Thanks for your quick response to the newz.
August 7th, 2010
8:01 pm
Wow, I had no idea that we had a "fleet of players capable of playing center". Did anyone else know about this fleet?
August 7th, 2010
8:05 pm
Al Horford is not a natural PF, no matter how much he thinks he is.
nire, come on man. It's one thing to say that Horford may not be a good GM, but shouldn't dude know his natural position better than someone like, well, you?
August 7th, 2010
8:09 pm
I'll also add this. If Al doesn;t THINK that he is a true center (while a guy like Ben Wlallace does), then guess what? IMO, a person can only "fake the funk" for so long… if Al doesn;t believe that he is an NBA center then his days of being an All-Star center may be numbered. Because, again, I don't think you can continue to be something that you believe is a lie over a period of several years.
August 7th, 2010
8:36 pm
Dr. Mary, maybe this is why our previous head coach wasn't overly interested in moving Al from defending centers.
August 7th, 2010
8:54 pm
Fire Larry drew
Heh heh first to say it
August 7th, 2010
9:07 pm
Astro Joe
Aye … Nice link! I am sure, Drew will still play Horford a center some.
But hey if the experiment don't work, he can always go back to
Sing – Sing.
August 7th, 2010
10:01 pm
I think that in the overwhelming majority of cases, players are better-equipped than even the most information-obsessed of fans when it comes to knowing their "true" position. I think this is an exception. I have never seen Al provide a justification as to why he thinks he is a "natural" PF rather than a C. If he has and I missed it, I'd love to know.
The only explanation I can come up with is his size – which is thing that our "we need a TRUE center" mantra-chanting fans fixate on. My reasoning was aimed at that reasoning – when Al was growing up, 6′10 would have been on the short side for centers (although even Hakeem was really only 6′10). Today, it is not. If he has other reasons underlying his take on what his natural position is, then seriously – I'd like to know. But to my eyes, he is more than holding his own at center.
More importantly, NBA coaches – guys who I think DO know better than players what their "true" position is in almost every case – selected Al as an All-Star last year, when he was spending nearly all of his time at center. If a coach-chosen All-Star center isn't a true center, then who the hell is?
August 8th, 2010
8:50 am
The Atlanta Hawks are Garbage!! And will be sweep again in the Playoffs, if they make the playoffs.Until the organization bring in players or draft players with -Heart -it will be the same story. I've NEVER seen a team in the NBA get sweep or should i say -BLOWNOUT- 2 years in a row and the organization brings back the -Same- sorry-azz players. U fans on here need to support a winning NBA team…Go Boston!!, and oh the Celtics will be back to play the Lakers in the Finals..
August 12th, 2010
2:45 pm
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