text:
Why is Cheese Forbidden in Authentic Italian Fish Cookery?
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- niki rothman Aug 3, 2007 01:00 PM
I just whipped up a big unctuous mess of capellini with white clam sauce - delicious, yes...but something seems missing. "Oh, I know - parmesano! Of course! But, of course as everybody knows it's a BIG BIG "NO-NO" Massive injunction, possibly a hanging offense, against adding cheese to Italian fish dishes...
Since it seems like the perfect last step, aside from lemon juice, to put the perfect kick into my own spag. a la vongole, WHAT is the big problem with the genuine Italian chefs and vongole eaters...not to mention every other chef and eater of pesce? WHY the horror of combining fish and cheese?
Just to let you know, I haven't actually desecrated my own pasta with clam sauce lunch with any parmesano YET, but I'd love to know why I should refrain - please give me some rational reasoning to underpin what seems to be an absurd, yet unbreakable, culinary law.
Cooks from every country and ethnicity are certainly welcome to jump right into the conversation, but cooks and sophisticated eaters bearing authentic Italian DNA are ESPECIALLY welcome to respond, as I'd be very interested to learn any pertinent cultural history, folk tales, grandmas' stories...please do enlighten us!
My pasta lunch is getting cold as I type this!
So, is your pasta still uneaten as we speak??? I'd save myself the horror of cold soggy pasta and just add the cheese.
jfood has heard about NO cheese on pasta with fish. Jfood's response is thanks for the import please pass the romano. anyone who wants to draw a line in the sand on this should also post on the thread about "food snobbery."
anyone who does not believe that cheese and seafood do not go together in Italian cooking should venture to New Haven and order a white clam piizza with mozzy.
re: jfood
That isn't Italian cooking - it is Italian-American (or more precisely, Italian-USian) cooking, which is a perfectly fine and valid category. (Sounds good, too).
I don't know where the taboo came from - indeed when I was living in central Italy the idea was a heresy - but I don't know the origin. I don't think it is just a matter of food snobbery - tradition is not exactly the same thing.
re: lagatta
agreed but tradition taken to the extreme equals snobbery.
re: lagatta
I suspect it is a valid Italian cultural tradition and not an elitist American "foodie" snobbism because I've repeatedly heard it from authentic Italian TV chefs like Gia DeLaurentis, Lidia Bastianich, Mary Ann Esposito, Michael Chiarello. Marcella Hazan, in her "Classic Italian" cookbook mentions aming many fish dishes but one that mentions cheese - adding parmesan to baked oysters, perhaps the exception that proves the rule? Judith Machlin who is the doyen of Jewish Italian cookbook writing, and where it is perfectly permissable to combine fish and dairy for kosherness, omits any recipe where they are combined in the cookbook of her's that I own.
re: lagatta
What in heaven is "Italian-USian"?
Italian -American food is somewhat, or very different from Italian food in Italy. It was adapted by Italian immigrants to America who found thery could not get certain ingredients they could easily find in the Old Country, and the plentiful fruits, vegetables, meat, fish, they did not have in Italy.
Italian-American Cuisine has morphed into a genuine cuisine of its own.
The no cheese with fish custom has nothing to do with snobbery. Most Italians feel that cheese would overwhelm the delicate taste of fish.
In Italian American cuisine, cheese is often added to everything, not so in Italy. There are certain foods that call for cheese, others that do not.
re: Fleur
Niki, I have two friends who are Italian-Jewish (or Jewish-Italian?) and I have never had any cheesy fish dishes served or prepared by either. But then, their cooking is very Mediterranean (both have Sephardic surnames - there are also Askenazi Jews in Northeastern Italy) and fish would more likely be served with lemon, tomato and other delicious Mediterranean produce.
Neither keeps kosher, but the traditional dishes they were making would follow kosher rules, and indeed fish is "neutral", no?
Italian-USian (as I had said, a more precise term) - food of Italian origin as it developed in the US. The US is not the only country in America with a very large Italian population. It has the absolute largest numbers in terms of persons of Italian descent, but Argentina is the American country with by far the highest percentage of Italians (some say 40% of the total population) and a very great Italian influence in the cuisine, which there too evolved - and of course there is a lot more meat than in "Italian-Italian" cuisine.
Many Argentineans are of Northern Italian ancestry, while more US citizens of Italian descent hail from the Mezzogiorno. Genovese dishes such as the torta pasqualina/pascualina (it. sp.) are very popular in Argentina.
In Canada, Molise and Abruzzo (in the centre-south) are among the largest places of Italian emigration.
Brazil and Venezuela are also among the American countries with a sizeable Italian population.
re: lagatta
Kosher dietary laws forbid serving or eating dairy with meat - but that does not extend to fish. Kosher fish (that's fish that have scales, gills and fins on them) can be served with kosher dairy products and still be kashrut.
That being said, my favorite Italian dish is Linguine with White Clam Sauce (definitely NOT kosher) served with garlic and plenty of grated Parmigiano and Romano on top. I am now hungry just from having typed that!!
So blazes with tradition - eat what you like!!
Buon Appetito!!
re: Fleur
There isn't one kind of "Italian food in Italy" and there are great variations regionally and from North to South as Lagatta points out.
Many of the immigrants to the US, particularly after WWII, were from Southern Italy which has historically been poorer than Northern Italy. Although they were not able to find many of the products they were used to in their homeland and made substitutions, when they did well in their new country, they were delighted to add more "luxury" products to their meals. They added far more meat, fish and cheese proportionately than the recipes prior generations had used. Not to mention much larger portions.
re: MakingSense
<Although they were not able to find many of the products they were used to in their homeland and made substitutions, when they did well in their new country, they were delighted to add more "luxury" products to their meals. They added far more meat, fish and cheese proportionately than the recipes prior generations had used. Not to mention much larger portions.> This was because here in US the precious animal protein was far more easily obtainable!
As for missing the cheese on pasta with fish, try toasted breadcrumbs with a little garlic and parsley! That adds the crunch and loads of flavor.
re: hrhboo
ditto. Eat what you like. I, personally, like parm/romano/etc on my shellfish pastas!
I've heard the 'no cheese with seafood' thing more times than I can count. Recently, within a week of each other, I saw two chefs (one on TV the other at a cooking school) make Lobster Risotto and add grated Parmigiano. The one I was able to tasted in person was awesome. I think it's like wine..... ther are rules and purist opinions, but you should do what tastes good to you. I would guess that the sharp-ish flavor of Parm or Romano would conflict with the subtlety of most seafood, and pure italian cookimg is more about the fish than about the sauce anyway, so I get it. But I see people drinking red wine with fish too, and the same is certainly true of most reds overpowering a delicate poached fish. There's a reason for the 'rule', but you get the largest number of votes.
That is a sad rule, considering how AWESOME parmesano is on pretty much every kind of seafood pasta! Who cares what the rule is. Unless you're out to dinner with someone who holds that perspective, (and even then), it's going in YOUR mouth. Food is to eat for taste. So eat and enjoy!
I think the most direct response is: its not forbidden, its just not, apparently, done very commonly in Italy. In the never ending quest for the "authentic," its easy to turn such everyday realities into "rules." I'd bet that there are people in Italy who do like to have cheese with some seafood...because they like it.
re: ccbweb
Really, I'm not worrying about being bad for putting cheese on fish - just wondering about the origins of this tradition culturally, why do people like Mario Batalli get so exercized about it? I'm usually the one who is being excoriated by snobs for breaking the rules, so please understand I don't have any ax to grind one way or another - just want to learn what's the story and why does it seem so important to many real Italian chefs?
I actually added butter, sweated in evoo scallions and garlic, marjoram, plain whole milk yogurt (strange sounding, but I urge you to try it) AND parmesan to my white clam sauce.
And was it ever DEE-LICIOUS!!!
re: niki rothman
That sounds now more like clam-flavored white cheese sauce to me...delicious, I'm sure, but it isn't "white clam sauce" anymore. To me, anyway. :-)
As the fiddler once said: "TRADITION"?
My Italian friends (from Italy) tell me that the meals they grew up eating were rigidly standardized by region/city, time of day, and day of the week. If you were in Rome, or Florence, and it was time for the midday meal, you knew exactly what you would be having. Everything else on a restaurant menu was for the tourists. The no cheese on fish rule strikes me as more of the same.
No personal expertise to share on this, but I've been hearing it for decades. Pass the Reggiano.
re: altajoe
But clams are not fish and they are not delicate at all in my opinion... is it an overall seafood rule or just a fish rule?
re: gottasay
In general, its not just the fish or shellfish. Its the condimento, which is usually delicate. A light tomato base or oil is intended to accompany.
To an Italian, putting cheese on a seafood dish is the equivalent to salting without trying it first, a no-no in any country. One more consideration is that by grabbing the cheese you are implying that the fish/shellfish is not fresh and needs to be masked.
re: gottasay
I noticed the ONLY place Marcella Hazan conjoins fish and cheese in her cookbook index is for oysters and parm.
re: niki rothman
I love Marcella, but she can be something of a dilettante. Like the rest of her ilk, she is only a guide, and ought to encourage her readers to taste and decide for themselves.
re: altajoe
True, but if the OP tries it and likes it, who cares?
re: Husky
Two answers to that:
1) Nobody. The OP can put whatever she wants on her dish.
2) Me and many others, if we're eating at her house and she's already put the cheese on the dish.
The answer is do what you like. But because it's a tradition you may not agree with, don't assume everyone else is with you. I used to eat cheese on top of all of my pasta dishes growing up. Then I started trying some dishes without cheese, like white clam sauce or mussels or tuna, and I learned I liked them better without the cheese.
re: altajoe
AJ's point really is at the core of the original tradition. This basis does seem most appropriate to the more delicately sweet, impeccably fresh fish.
re: altajoe
right, plain and simple: don't overpower. Historical reason: if you are covering fish with cheese, you'll probably are serving bad fish and you need to "hide" it masquerading with something stronger.
Anyway if you are not interested in that, you can put Parmigiano on your fish. But please don't serve it to me ;)
Greetings from Italy,
PS: this rule of thumb won't exclude that you can make something good with fish+cheese, maybe with some strong fish + light cheese (salmon+soft creamy cheese)
re: salutlemonde
Not ok on shellfish, either!
But do as YOU like!
Similar discussion a while back, which got quickly to the issue of pungent cheese overpowering delicate fish.
This spring in Rome I had the pleasure of a pasta dish featuring fresh anchovies and pecorino. Strong fish + salty cheese = delicious. And this was at La Campana, a traditional restaurant.
re: JFores
I was going to say the same thing. I had no idea this was a rule until a few years ago, but have never done it or thought to do it. Fish and cheese doesn't seem like something that would go together. But, if you like it, do it. who cares what Italians do?
re: sisterfunkhaus
I've a friend who asked me once would it be wrong for him to bring Louisiana hot sauce to a French restaurant. He likes to put hot sauce on everything. I told him that hot sauce would mask the flavor of his meal and insult the chef on top of it. What would you have told him?
re: Chinon00
Here's a thread for your friend: http://www.chow.com/topics/826545
Another "italian authenticity" question ? :) Here's my input:
I do think that cheese would usually work against seafood dishes, particularly if the dish tastes distinctly of fish (probably why it's considered heresy to add cheese in an italian restaurant). For example, no one on my Italian side would put cheese on fried flounder, calamari, baked fish.
But I've had gnocchi with clams and a light tomato-cream sauce at my uncle's restaurant in Naples.
I once had a Sicilian boyfriend, studying here, who came to dinner for linguine alla vongole at my dad's house. My dad makes a great clam sauce: parsley, garlic, olive oil, white wine, fresh clams and their filtered juice. We always put parmigiano on it - we passed to the Sicilian at the table and he says - no one does it in public but we do it at home. And he put cheese on the pasta.
Now, the clams we use are very fresh New England clams (so fresh that if need be they last unharmed in the refrigerator for weeks) but dont' have a delicate flavor like the small clams I found in Italy. The garlicky-parsley part of my dad's pasta is enhanced by the cheese and the clams don't have a very strong flavor. I also like pecorino with the anchovy, olive, parsley, and fresh tuna linguine that I make. I think it depends on how strong the fish flavor is. I also think it's kind of gross on shrimp.
re: pikawicca
Shrimp and Grits is MUCH better if you don't serve it with cheese grits. Try using good quality grits instead. The cheese detracts from this dish IMO. Wouldn't have been used in the simple Low Country original anyway. Just a recent change, likely a Food Network or restaurant froo-froo version by those who can't leave well-enough alone.
People can do as they please though. Why not just serve the shrimp over brown rice or quinoa?
re: MakingSense
I've had shrimp and grits with and without cheese, and prefer the cheese. But isn't that what it's all about: personal preference?
Rule one is if you like it then eat it and don't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
That said, the italians (me too) feel their perfectly fresh fish is so excellent that its flavor deserves to NOT be masked by the strong cheesy taste. Still, if you must use cheese, try it just once sparingly to see how you like it. You mught decide you enjoy fish.
re: mymymichl
So interesting! I agree with the suggestions to eat what you like, but the sound of fish and cheese makes me want to barf... and I'm not Italian. (But I was married to one for 5 years)
re: Texchef
jfood felt the same way when he read that people put mayo on hot dogs. whatever works and people enjoy is perfect in jfood's book. Heck, little jfoods put ketchup on hot dogs and mustard on roast beef sandwiches. jfood does not agree but when he serves the family that what he serves.
re: jfood
I wonder, too, if it's a regional thing. My family lives just south of Rome, and there is plentiful cheese, game, veggies, fruits and pasta, but no fish, as the village is inland and they are very proud of their indigenous foods. Perhaps the combo isn't traditional because there aren't many places that specializein/produce both cheese and seafood. Just a thought....
re: ctscorp
that's my thinking too. long ago and far away, regions of what is now italy were disparate and not much mingling occurred. local foods and local cuisine stayed that way for centuries. easy access to many ingredients is a very modern thing. since food is practically holy in italy, people don't mess with it.
americans have a fondness for overloading dishes. whenever i come home from italy or spain it always takes a while for my palate to recalibrate. i eat so simply while there: perfect ingredients, simply presented.
maybe try a dash of sea salt instead of cheese? just a thought...
re: hotoynoodle
Yes, many American palates - so accustomed to either the flavors of processed foods or BIG! BOLD! FRUITY/SPICY! flavors - do not adjust well to food that's more simply seasoned. Cheese - like hot pepper - becomes a universal seasoning (like ketchup and mustard used to be for so many people).
A couple of different things:
1. As for sharp cheese and seafood: I recall reading somewhere that one usually unspoken reason for the tradition developing is that the synergistic combination reminds many people of vomit. If you've burped the combo, you may understand why that can be so.
2. Cream and seafood: too much cream obscures the flavor of delicate flavored seafood.
re: Karl S
inland regions like emiglia-romano are known for meats and cheeses -- reggiano, prosciutto, etc. seaside regions are not. they had easy access to day-boat seafood, but not dairy. over the centuries, they simply cooked what was readily available, and dishes became known in that traditional fashion.
it's not that complicated, lol.
i also think americans are accustomed to having cheese on everything, so it's a go-to for them. it certainly adds flavor if the tomatoes in your sauce were picked a week ago and shipped 1500 miles and your fish was purchased frozen. typical american cooking is the antithesis of the italians, who most typically shop daily for dinner and buy local ingredients, in season. americans have to compensate for food that lacks real flavor of its own.
In Salerno, the very nice woman who was running the small restaurant let me know in no uncertain terms (even though her English and my Italian were both all but nonexistent) that you do NOT put the parmigiana on the linguini alla vongole. I conformed to her demands with never a murmur...but the very first kind of clam sauce I ever tasted was essentially pesto with clams added - yes, cheese and all - and it was awfully good!
I think what it comes down to is simply this: Italians don't like seafood and cheese together, just like they typically don't care for raw onion or dead-ripe raw tomatoes. It's a cultural thing. As for me, there are several dishes mixing seafood and cheese that I love; yes, the sharp cheddar in my tuna casserole DOES have some flavor characteristics not unlike barf, but I happen to enjoy that kind of thing. There are all kinds of raunchy or perhaps unmentionable things that the smell of (for instance) fish can bring to mind, not to mention ripe Camembert...
re: Will Owen
Sexy Will Owen! But Will...since when was tuna noodle casserole considered fine Italian cuisine? And surely the Italians would be the last people on earth to cringe at the thought of anything on the cheesy OR fishy side? It's their horror of the combining of these ingredients, which are just as cheesy and funky fishy as they wanna be standing alone, that is so weird and fascinating.
re: Will Owen
I'm with Will here. My original answer to the original question was "Because it tastes ooky to combine fish and cheese".
But, as with all things, there are ammendments. Parm on Linguine alla Vongole doesn't faze me. I've been known to put parm on a pasta with a creamy seafood sauce- and there's a place in CT I'm thinking of right now that's making my mouth water. "Yes, I'd love some freshly grated parm, thank you" I say with a smile and lean waaay back so the waiter can adequately cheese me.
But "stuffed fish" where one of those stuffings in cheesey- blech.
re: Will Owen
I think that a good parm in and of itself will have a whiff of barf if you smell it. If it doesn't smell a bit barfy, I pass.
OK, other than Altajoe, David Kaplan and fara, no one has made anyheadways into the actual WHY of not putting cheese with fish. Where is a food anthropologist when we need one.
re: Phaedrus
why are you completely discounting the historical reality of the availability of only the most local ingredients? please see my posts above.
re: hotoynoodle
Good point, because I missed it. Sorry.
re: hotoynoodle
Uh, and mine, which preceded yours, hotoynoodle! ;)
re: Phaedrus
I think hotoynoodle has an excellent point. We never seem to give enough weight to the idea that people didn't always have access to or even interest in food products from even a small distance away. If you lived by the sea, you ate fish. The land there wasn't good for grass, hence no pastures for dairy cattle and no dairy products. The dairy regions for the most part were far from the fishing ports. Traditions and habits developed and there were regional aspects to them.
I also agree that there is a taste issue. Certain combinations taste awful and Italians just know that.
We should perhaps leave American preferences out of the discussion for the short term because it confuses the issue. Of course, it's your right to melt Velveeta on your shrimp scampi if it makes you happy.
The OP asked the question: Why is the general rule such as it is? Why are there a few exceptions?
Not whether YOU break the rule or not.
re: MakingSense
it irks me though that all too often americans think food traditions have no validity or that there is no reason behind them. that everything is just some fool rule from the food police.
eat whatever you like at home. sure. but i think the scoffing at tradition is unnecessary.
re: hotoynoodle
re: MakingSense
Brilliant! In our modern world we are jaded to easily availability of foods from far, far away - brought to our greedy mouths via destruction of the ozone layer through motor exhaust. But for most folks still living in undeveloped areas, or everybody not fabulously wealthy up until the industrial revolution, you basically ate ONLY what grew or lived rather near your home.
But here in the 21st century, as the song says, "...Anything goes!" Even middle class people are spoiled by the expectation of being able to get any food from anywhere on earth at any time.
I don't know what's happening in Italy, but I live in northern California on the coast and driving north or south one commonly sees rural coastal hillsides practically awash in grazing dairy cows. And I remember from my days living in Oregon, sometoimes even wading contentedly in the surf!
re: Phaedrus
When Mario Batalli talks about the issue of how the Italians feel about fish he rapsodizes and obsesses about the Italians having a very deep need to feel fish has come straight from the ocean onto your plate. Pristene freshness. Delicacy. The less human hands have intervened the better. (VIRGINITY issues feature large in the Latin Catholic church. They have a cult of Mary.) Cheese is profoundly un-virginal. Cheese is a product VERY far from the cow. Messed with quite a bit, sometimes over years. The diamtetrical OPPOSITE of fresh, untouched, virginally pure and unmessed with by human hands - fish.
Just getting into some symbolism here.
re: niki rothman
i think you answered your own question here :). to simplify: it doesn't go on so many levels. at least prepared simply, nello stilo italiano. there is actually a thread on the perfect (simple)clam sauce in home cooking right now, in which I have given my father's perfect recipe.
however your version above doesn't sound Italian so much as northern european? it sounds like it would go well with cheese, and you already have the dairy in it.
re: niki rothman
I think you have touched upon an important element of the fundamental argument here (that fish is delicate and its flavor should be respected, not masked): the fact that fish come from the sea, and Italians expect their fish to taste that way. Here in the States, many of us have become accustomed to fish that is "farmed", or fish that was once fresh and wild, but has traveled and lost some of its essence, not to mention fish that is "cleaned" beyond recognition. We (for the most part) expect our fish to smell as little as possible, and often encounter "seafood" that bears almost no resemblance to the living fish it once was (no head, scales, shells, or bones, for example). I know Italians who don't order fish in much of the US because, as they have told me, "it doesn't taste of the sea".
re: vvvindaloo
How often do we hear people say, "I really like XXX. It doesn't taste 'fishy' at all."
re: MakingSense
people do the same with meat - skinless, boneless chicken breast tastes much less of chicken than bone-in, or thigh. cheese -preferably no flavor used to be the standard. eggs, etc. did we have some kind of wave of distribution of spoiled food in this country or something? would make sense. fish even now needs to travel way too far. it's not the same but I buy frozen wild fish b/c I don't live on the coast. (as most of you know most fish has been frozen anyway, might as well buy it before it's been defrosted).
re: fara
You are completely correct. In fact, this point occurred to me shortly after I posted my comment re: fish. Unless you go well out of your way to buy meat that is "free range", "organic" no hormones/antibiotics, etc., your meat (especially chicken) is likely to taste more like the factory it was made in that the animal it is purported to be. In a country like Italy, on the other hand, chicken still tastes like chicken. And even fish that has traveled an hour or so from the coast is considered less desirable than eating food that is local.
re: MakingSense
"How often do we hear people say, "I really like XXX. It doesn't taste 'fishy' at all.""
My 100% pedigree qualifies me to answer! Actually, I think it is more tradition than rule. Most genuine Italian dishes are actually quite uncomplicated and the flavor of each ingredient is usually discernable. Fish sauces tend to be either very light, such as white clam sauce, or bold such as Fra Diavolo (at least in the U.S). In any case, it usually cooks quickly and is made simply. Grated cheese just doesn't seem to be necessary to enjoy either the subtlety or the big, bold flavor. However, many years ago, when I dated a Sicilian guy from Brooklyn, his family cooked "Shrimp Parmigiana" for Christmas Eve. Yes, breaded and covered with red sauce and mozzarella. Typical marinara sauce with medium seasoning, and mozzarella went with it just as well as it would have over a chicken cutlet. It was something I had never eaten before, and it was delicious. That said, my own mother wrinkled her brow when I told her what had been on the menu. There is certainly no dietary restriction or religious tradition that I know of, although it is possible that the traditional Friday meals (non-meat), which were supposed to be simple meals and/or fasts, just seemed too rich with cheese.
re: RGC1982
shrimp parmigiana would never be on a christmas eve table in sicily, lol. italian-american food (on which i grew up!) is often a completely different thing. maybe that's why americans think italian food always needs cheese.
re: RGC1982
Actually, historically there *was* a restriction. For centuries, restrictions on eating meat on Fridays and during Lent included restrictions on the use of dairy products. In northern Europe, where oil was rare, people effectively purchased indults to be exempt (the cause of the famous "butter towers" of Gothic northern Europe). In Italy, where oil was more readily available, there was less cause for those exceptions.
While the restrictions on dairy faded a long time ago in the Roman church, they still exist in eastern Christian churches (even oil is proscribed on certain days). You want a completely vegan, low-fat cuisine?: look at recipes designed for eastern orthodox Lent...
I learned about no parmigiano on seafood on my 1st trip to visit my family in Italy (Albisola SV about a 1/2 NW of Genova on the coast). Another thing I learned was, do not put parmigiano on gnocchi with a ragu di funghi (mushroom sauce). I guess it goes in the same category as "letting the ingredients speak for themselves". Don't make them fight for attention.
The ragu di funghi was just olive oil and mushrooms. I can't remember if the mushrooms were porcini or if they were dried or fresh. Sorry, I drank too much grappa.
As full disclosure, I am not Italian, but a strongly formative influence on my life was a woman from Friuli, a region with its own cuisine (and, arguably, language). The rule is usually formulated "no cheese with seafood" (fish or anything else), because the usual cheese would be parmigiano, romano, or something similar. To my mind, it's a very good rule of thumb, because the sharpness of the cheese overpowers the subtlety of the seafood. From experience, I agree with the rule. That said, sometimes ricotta salata will be found with seafood in Italy, but it's so much milder than the above cheeses, that it doesn't overpower the flavour of the plate. As well, I allow *one* exception from French cuisine (which I love, but whose allowance of cheese with fish I cannot understand): the great, dense, sinisterly dark fish south from the south-west of France, along the Biscay, which can stand a bit of grated cheese only because it is so strongly flavoured.
I'm sure that there's a biochemist here who could explain this. After all, many, if not most, rules about food/food and food/wine pairings have some basis in biochemistry.
re: hungry_pangolin
Hungry pangolin, please do tell us all about this strange, dark, sinister fish - sounds like something Herman Melville would have enjoyed hearing about! Or are you thinking of herring?
re: niki rothman
Niki - The *soup* ("south" was a typo, though we could rename this "soupe Melville", or "soupe Nemo") is onion, garlic, fennel, tomato, fish (whole whiting I usually use), orange zest, saffron, bouquet garni, pernod, simmered together. The liquid is strained off, then what remains in the pot is pulverised (veg and fish remains), and then forced through the strainer again. Serve with rustically cut croutons with rouille, and grated parmegiano or gruyere. I prefer a thirst-quenching white with this (I like a viognier), but the flavours are strong enough that a good rose or gamay (even slightly chilled) are good matches.
So, you see, it is the soup that is sinisterly dark, not the kraken you were led by my typo to believe was involved.
re: hungry_pangolin
The soup is Bourride, usually served with aioli. Common in French provincial cooking. All over in Brittany. I don't remember it being served with cheese in that area.
re: MakingSense
It struck me as more regional. I never saw anything like it in the north or east.
re: hungry_pangolin
OK, that explanation makes a lot more sense than sheer food snobbery.
Again, I like to temper the "do what you like" attitude with a little curiousity as to why certain rules exist. On my first trip to Italy (Rome specifically) I ordered a seafood risotto at a restaurant. The waiter brought it to the table and I asked for cheese. He told me in very slow and clear English "sir we do not serve this with cheese because it would overpower the fish". Now, I could have demanded cheese but I didn't. I ate it as suggested and really enjoyed it. Would it have tasted good with cheese? Sure. Would it have tasted better with cheese? Maybe. Would I have been able to appreciate the briney delicate oceany clams and shrimp and broth (which is what the meal is about) with cheese? No way.
re: Chinon00
I think the way to do it is to follow the tradition, and if you don't agree with the tradition, do your own thing at home.
re: Phaedrus
Although jfood enjoys grated cheese on seafood, he would never embarass self or staff by insisting on cheese if the resto is adverse. There is a courtesy that the custo must show to the resto as well that trnascends the custo is always right mentality.
re: Phaedrus
And cheese is one of those things that makes just about anything taste better or richer at least because, well, it's cheese. Sort of like the same way frying makes things taste tastier.
re: Chinon00
Don't forget that cheese (especially parmesan) has high levels of glutamates (think MSG) which "enhance" food flavor - but often, when it comes to fish/shellfish/delicate foods what you end up "tasting" is the "glutamate-rush", it would seem to me, but you like it because it DOES taste good. It just may no longer quite be the actual taste of the original basic ingredient that you are tasting.
re: Steve
I don't think there are that many French dishes that use cheese with seafood. Mornay sauce. With scallops for Coquille St.-Jacques. Sometimes with baked oysters. But they're used in prep not at the table. And in very small quantities, almost as a seasoning.
Maybe you're right that because we've gotten used to putting cheese on Italian on the US, almost as a reflex, we just do it without thinking.
I'm with you, Steve: Just say NO.
re: madisoneats
Yes, but that was in English.
re: lagatta
while i enjoy epicurious, it wouldn't be my go-to source for authentic italian cuisine either.
re: madisoneats
Epicurious also has 59 Cool Whip recipes and you know what kind of fights that always starts on Chowhound! They just put stuff out there. Not necessarily a reliable source. Like Wiki and Google, a good starting place, but you've got to dig deeper for accurate research.
Jfood is not a big fan of sub-categorizing foods so the Italian-American, Jewish-Italian, Franco-Prussian sorta gets grey to thisold dog, just looking for good food.
That being said and jfood feels a little better before his walk, he does not have any issue with the cheese "overpowering" the delicate flavor of the fish. Everyone has a different palate and jfood is sensitive to some flavors more thanothers and vice versa. Last night he made a halibut in which he thought the cumin overpowered the other flavors and mrs jfood disagreed. c'est la vie.
jfood loves the delicacy of the fish with a stronger cheese on to as a compliment, others may not. So jfood may be luck that he tastes the subltlety that others might miss but jfood is also upset that for other dishes he can not taste the subtleties. c'est la vie.
Fish on Friday. No cheese on Friday. Ergo, no cheese on fish.
At least that's my guess. Plus Parma's about as far from the sea as you can get and still be in Italy, as has been noted a couple of times. They don't even have a river.
On a practical note, when your clam sauce seems to be asking for cheese it probably just wants a little more salt and olive oil.
one thing i don't think i've seen mentioned yet is the use of bread crumbs in place of grated hard cheeses with seafood in italian cooking. i see toasted bread crumbs come up over and over again when i look over my italian cookbooks and recipes.
i know this doesn't shed more light on WHY cheese and seafood in the same dish is discouraged, but i think it shows that there seems to be a steadfast tradition in italy of adding the texture of toasted bread crumbs to seafood dishes. and i've read several recipes and books that explain that bread crumbs are often used as a sort of "poor man's " cheese.
obviously, grated cheese melts into hot food, but there is a textural similarity. and while bread crumbs could never add the rich and complex flavors of parmiagiano or pecorino romano, etc., it wouldn't give the seafood that..funky flavor that some people object to.
anyways, if anyone is on the fence, maybe try adding toasted bread crumbs to your seafood pastas and see how that sits with you. i think this is ultimately cultural. if i'm offered cheese with my seafood at a restaurant, it's a 50% chance that i will or won't accept it, based on whim. if i was in a restaurant that frowned on it, i wouldn't ask for it and wouldn't miss it, either. i respect food traditions, even if i don't keep them.
BUT, for god's sake, niki rothman, please enjoy your meal while it's still hot! these burning questions for chowhound can always be employed afterwards to postpone washing the dishes.
re: augustiner
a cursory glance through my marcella hazan book, a woman famous for her strict, almost intimidating adherence to italian food traditions, showed several seafood pastas (i only flipped through the pasta chapter) with breadcrumbs. BUT, i also saw two recipes combining seafood and cheese. one featured anchovies and parmigiano-reggiano, which brings to mind the strong fish-strong cheese argument. but the other was a tortellini stuffed with fish which featured sea bass or any similar, delicate fish, and both parmiagiano reggiano and pecorino romano. whether these are recipes of her own or local, traditional ones, the book doesn't say. but if marcella hazan sometimes mixes the two, i imagine there are probably many tasty exceptions to the rule, even in italy.
again, i'm not making an argument for or against the rule, but i figured there would be exceptions to it even within italian culture. and italian cuisine is super-regional isn't it? but if an italian cook from the inland north has access to fresh fish now, would they add cheese to those dishes? agh. both trips there as a young child i insisted on eating lasagna ALL the time, regardless of where we were. if only i could afford to go there now!
re: augustiner
I must respond to your passion, in worrying that my lunch that day not be ruined. And the response must come in the form of a confession that is sort of embarrassing but should at least be reasuring to you kind chowhounds who have feared for the ruination of a perfect al dente lunch supposedly sitting around getting soft and unappetizing. A health issue forces me to eat my pasta overcooked - and off the boil. I've come to actually prefer it that way. Odd how necessity has a tendency to become preference given only the passage of time.
But, thanks so much to all of you who went a little nuts when I wrote how my pasta was sitting around while I was typing to you. I love it that you care!
I think that it might be important to know WHY it's done but in the end it'll be up to you whether you'd use cheese on fish or not. I think that is far worse to comply with "tradition" and not really know why or what the functionality of the tradition actually is.
I wonder if the strong middle eastern roots of Italy has anything to do with not combining dairy with seafood... sort of a linger cultural-religious vestige... that everybody observes subconsciously without exactly knowing why.
re: Eat_Nopal
I think it's the opposite--if you look at it from a global perspective--the tendency to put cheese on top of fish (or meat, beans or many other types of food) is the more strange and unusual of the two tendencies... My theory is that Americans tend to do this more because their meat and fish, speaking generally, tends to be less flavorful.
re: butterfly
Hi butterfly,
Or, it could be that we Americans basic character involves insisting on gilding the lily wherever and whenever possible because we are spoiled by just being used to having too much food - and that of mediocre quality?
But you are definitely onto something, after reading your post about the lack of flavor generally in our meats and fish, I flashed on a TV commercial that i have noticed I gag on whenever I see it recently - for Applebee's or Friday's or Tuesday's or someother misbegotten chain restaurant perhaps in the guise of a day of the week. You are invited to enjoy their latest abomination in the form of otherwise probably simply defrosted, naked, flavorless chicken breasts with yellow oleagenous, generic cheese-product melted all over them. God help me, I wish I could remember what moniker these nasty protein slabs are masquerading under - no doubt with unintentional irony. Maybe another chowhound can help me out. Surely, the name could not help being more imaginative than the actual food offering. Unfortunately, in these places the name on the menu always sounds delicious but has nothing to do with what actually shows up on your plate. ITEM: "Dry, tasteless protein swimming in melted (but rapidly congealing) tasteless cheese product" - how's that for truth in advertising? Wouldn't sell very well though, would it?
re: niki rothman
And that's because boneless skinless chicken breast as commonly consumed in the US is worse than tofu (which is not a knock against tofu). Unless it's quality chicken supremes cooked in a more classic non-American manner, generally boneless chicken breast is the nastiest thing on many menus.
re: butterfly
Come to think of it, are there *any* fish dishes that americans generally eat that contain cheese? Tuna melts and tuna noodle casserole maybe, but anything else?
I wonder if the question would be better reframed, "why do americans instinctively toss cheese on everything italian?"
re: Chuckles the Clone
Fantastic point! I think that it is just perfunctory.
re: Chuckles the Clone
"why do americans instinctively toss cheese on everything italian?"
And Mexican and many other types of foods... When I go back to visit the US, it's the one thing that I notice right away--copious amounts of flavorless cheese and sauce.
re: butterfly
Do you realize that you just insulted more than half of the world's population?
1) Chinese, Mexican & Indian (arguably 3 of the most influential culinary traditions of all time) have strong traditions of saucing fish... it may not be cheese but in many of their dishes the protein is just another ingredient in the sauce. Some would argue that Classic French & Roman would also fit in in this sauce-phyllic label.
2) The argument that Americans dress up fish because it is less flavorful is absolutely wrong. Stronger tasting fish (or beef, lamb, goat, turkey if they case might be) is MORE adept for taking on stronger flavors. U.S. protein was genetically engineered towards blandness not in the last 2 decades when sauces became more important in the U.S. gastronomy but in the 1950's when Americans DID NOT eat ethnic, DID NOT like spicy foods, DID NOT have salsa as the #1 condiment... back then for many people the flavoring repertoire was simply salt, pepper & butter.
3) I've had Italian food that is sauced enough to where the character of the seafood is masked. The classic Cioppinos come to mind, or perhaps Clams in White Wine, Garlic & Parsley.... in either case the seafood just becomes part of the whole... and in both cases... CHEESE IS NOT A STRONGER FLAVORED INGREDIENT THAN EITHER SAUCE.
So now its time to get back to trying to uncover the real reasons...
re: Eat_Nopal
I'm not sure if you are responding to me, if so, I can't understand what part of what I wrote that you are responding to, because there seems to be a major leap in subject matter (Chinese sauces? 1950s cuisine?). At no point did I insult half of the planet... on the contrary.
My point was that adding cheese to main dishes involving fish is, from a global perspective, quite an unusual practice. The absense of such a practice doesn't, in my mind, necessarily point to Jewish and/or Muslim practices that are lodged in the collective unconscious of a country's gastronomy.
It seems to me, cheese is clearly an added fat used to create "comfort food". Where I live this is achieved with pork or olive oil instead.
re: butterfly
"I think it's the opposite--if you look at it from a global perspective--the tendency to put cheese on top of fish (or meat, beans or many other types of food) is the more strange and unusual of the two tendencies"
That is what I was referring to. The Chinese & Indians (almost 1/2 of the world's population) like to top their fish with other types of food. Add to them any cuisine of Chinese derivation, Mexican, Latin American & even Italian.
No its not strange. Evolved cuisines tend to use sauces (a more complex & sophisticated process than just simply grilling or pan frying a fish).
re: butterfly
Sorry I misunderstood your statement. You were saying that putting cheese on top of fish or meats, or beans is strange... and I thought you were saying that putting meat, beans or any other food on top of fish was strange.
re: Eat_Nopal
Right, I wasn't talking about Chinese sauces or any other such thing that might insult half of the planet. This thread is about putting cheese on fish.
re: butterfly
Butterfly - sprinkling or shaving parm or romano on food is hardly making it comfort food. i don't think you're talking about the same thing we are. we're talking about a sprinkling, not complete coverage. aren't we?
re: Eat_Nopal
cioppino was developed in the states and NOT served with cheese... nor is linguine with clam sauce.
re: butterfly
Or it could be because we don't know how to cook it so that it has flavor. Most people I know seem to boil, grill, or bake everything and the only seasonings they use are garlic powder, salt, and pepper. None of them keep good butter, and the only vinegar they seem to know about it balsamic. If those were the only preperations and ingredients I knew, I would pour cheese all over everything too.
I've been known to have 10 different kinds of cheese in the icebox, but much of it is for eating or special dishes designed to have cheese as the star.
As much as I love mussells marinara and it SEEMS like I should be sprinkling parm on them, I can never bring myself to do it. it just seems wrong. Fish and cheese? Never! Ever! My grandmothers would spin in their graves. And yet my greatest indulgence (especially while pregnant) is a McDonald's Filet-o-Fish. Unbelievably tasty, always perfect. A piece of mystery fish with a slice of cheese. And it works. Go figure.
re: southernitalian
I just had my first ever Filet-o-Fish and the first thing that I told my wife was... "Pretty good, but have they always served it with cheese? It seems so irrelevant"
re: Eat_Nopal
In Sicily and Sardinia, which have traditions of cheesemaking and are surrounded be the sea, cheese (pecorino) is used with breadcrumbs and herbs to stuff sardines and swordfish. This is probably a seasoning (salty cheese seasons the stuffing - like marinating lamb in salted anchovies). I believe that most Italians are pragmatic about it and don't season seafood with cheese because it's just not very good - and interferes with the focus of Italian cooking: impeccable, fresh products cooked simply.
I am Irish/Welch and my wife is Italian. She was raised on Long Island and is a wonderful Italian cook. She cooks both Italian/American and 100% Italian. I asked her about this topic. She just laughed. I asked why she is laughing and she said that it doesn't matter how you prepare or use in a recipe as long as it taste good! She also stated that all cultures have some really outstanding recipes that stand alone, but it isn't a sin to adapt a recipe to ones one taste of spices and herbs or in this case putting some cheese on fish and pasta.
It isn't forbidden, but it just tastes weird and unpleasant to me. Do what you like, but the combination of romano or parmigiano with fish is something I find hugely unappealing. We would have bread crumbs sautéed in olive oil as a topping for pastas that had fish in them -- pasta con le sarde in particular. Similarly, Italians for the most part, don't use cheese on pastas containing hot red pepper flakes -- al'matriciana being the notable exception. Putanesca, for example, with hot peppers and anchovies, never has cheese.
re: roxlet
That has more to do with the anchovies than the hot pepper. See also aglio e olio and pepe e cacio - both classic preparations where pecorino is often added to peperoncino.
re: Karl S
I believe that those pastas call for black pepper, which seems, somehow, to be in a different category than red pepper flakes.
Pasta with clams is a great favourite of mine. Once in a snooty Italian place in London I was treated to a telling-off from the surly old waiter when I asked for parmesan on it.
I think it depends a lot on the context. If you're in the mood for warming, comfort food, shovel the cheese on. If you're in a more refined frame of mind and you want to truly taste the fresh, subtle flavour of the seafood, leave it off.
One of my other favourites is spiedini di pesce - grilled kebabs of assorted fish, lightly flavoured with garlic, lemon and parsley - and I wouldn't dream of putting cheese on them, as it would kill the taste.
re: paddydubai
I am Italian, living in Italy...in Puglia a region where we have lots of fantastic cheese and fish. I totally confirm that we would never put cheese on top of pasta with seafood. The only exception I can think of is the stuffed calamari...where we also put the parmesan cheese inside. However it is so delicate that it does not make a crontrast. Also, yes I would put some parmesan in the risotto with lobster. But I would never put any cheese on my linguine with tuna or scampi or shrimps!!!
re: stile mediterraneo
How amusing that all of these apparently "hard and fast" rules all come with some exceptions.
Actually, this whole thread reminds me of the (to me) odd practice of certain people pouring soy sauce over their white rice.
re: Blueicus
When I first moved away from Taiwan, we were invited to a dinner party, I was about nine years old. I got to eat with the other kids and one of the kids just poured soy sauce over his white rice and then offered the bottle to me. I looked at him like he had horns growing out of his head, he just shrugged and went about mixing his rice and soy together. Then I moved to the US and figured out that this was a pretty regular practice. I still get the shivers when I see people do that.
re: Phaedrus
I understand the classic standards on this rice thing.....it's good for you yet many Americans find it bland. My wife uses Ponzu, which I would think would be as abhorrent to you as soy sauce. My own tendency is to mix it with whatever sauce is served on the dish, but if there is none..................... what is an acceptable pairing with plain white rice? or is there none?
When I'm eating with Asian friends there I've noted a tendency to drip sauces from other dishes as one holds them over the individual rice bowl before consuming, or even to place the chopstick-ful on the rice temporarily before eating it. That provides a saucing to the rice. What's the protocol on that?
re: Midlife
Usually, when you eat at home, you don't want to use up dishes because that means you have to wash extra plates, a waste of precious water and effort. When I was young, I would spoon the sauce on to my rice, but I just don't get the soy sauce deal, it is just nasty to me.
In certain large cities. you can find food stalls where they use the rice and bowl as the holder of the food, rather than using dishes.
Most of the time, rice is used kind of as a palate cleanser, you take a bite of rice in order to clear out the taste of the previous bite and prepare the mouth to taste a bite of another dish.
re: Midlife
Nobody ever eats plain white rice with no accompaniment, unless they're poor.
re: Midlife
@midlife: But rice is the "staple", just as bread may be to you. Rice does have a delicate taste - it is not true that it is flavorless. The foods/dishes other than the rice are the "accompaniment" to the rice. One says "soong fan" in Cantonese. The rice also becomes the vehicle for savoring the sauce of the accompaniments (those other dishes).
Drowning rice (and those other dishes) with soy sauce has more to do with US/American folks ideas/perceptions of what constitutes "Chinese" food.
re: Phaedrus
Totally agree with you and I am not Chinese. If you want to try someone's cuisine-try it the way that they prepare it rather than try to change it. When I was a kid, I remember that Chinese food became very Americanized. It was so bad when I finally started to taste real Chinese food as an adult in China and from my Chinese wife. Likewise, it's rare to find American Italian cooking as delicious as the Italian cooking in Italy. I think that in the U.S. the recipes become modified sometimes. A friend of mine owns a Chinese restaurant. It has been totally amended to make it American, he said-despite that he is from Hong Kong. In Verona, there's a famous restaurant that opened a sister in New York that I used to love. It has modified it's recipes somewhat for the New York market and I stopped going. Sushi chefs who come to the U.S. have had to give in to the large amounts of wasabe and soyu that Americans require to disguise their fish. It's usually not even real wasabe but a mixture of a little bit of wasabe with horseradish. The miso soups are not often real smoked and fermented katsuo, but a fake consisting of chemicals and some fish powder.
Other times, it's a question of freshness and ingredients. The food storage in the U.S. is great, but it allows much older ingredients to hit our tables routinely and appear fresh. But the taste is not the same. In Mexico, for example, the cheeses are different and fresher. The vegetables are different and fresher. The meat is different and fresher. Same for China. Same for Italy. While our variety and availability here is amazing, we don't often get as much of the great experience of amazing freshness as in some other cultures.
re: Blueicus
Then there's ketchup on rice (ketchup is based on a southest Asian condiment, of course)....
re: Karl S
I have to admit, I've never seen ketchup on rice before... though I've certainly had my fill of ketchup fried rice (Western Fried Rice for those from HK). Oh, and I also have to admit that butter with plain rice still eludes me to this day
re: Blueicus
At the very cheapest places in Spain they sometimes have a first dish called "arroz a la cubana," which is white rice mixed with tomato sauce (or a ketchup like sauce) with a fried egg on top. Strangely, my husband's Cuban grandma calls the same dish arroz puta (puta being a not so elegant term for a prostitute or loose woman).
re: butterfly
Putain in French. Not to be confused with poutine... in Canadian.
re: Phaedrus
prostitute= english
putain= french
puta= spanish
Poutine is basically french fries with a tiny bit of brown sauce and covered with cheese curds that are melting with the heat of the fries down under lol
This is a simple fast food dish with many variants and served all across Quebec province in Canada
re: stile mediterraneo
Could you give jfood some insight on the Puglia difference between shrimp and scampi. Many thanks in advance.
re: jfood
These are scampi:
Cigala in Spanish, langoustine in French, Norway lobster/Dublin Bay prawn in English, Nephrops norvegicus in Latin. We eat them a lot in Spain.
re: stile mediterraneo
I make various recipes from a Sardinian cookbook that do combine both cheese and fish in dishes - pasta and otherwise - for what it is worth.
re: MMRuth
The author of "Encyclopedia of Pasta", Oretta Zanini De Vita , has this to say on the topic, "There's no logical explanation", "It's in our spiritual formation."
re: KTinNYC
And just found this, above, that discusses the combination of cheese and seafood in both Sardinian and Sicilian cooking.
re: MMRuth
Not to put too fine a point on this but I just reread the OP's original post. I don't think the word "forbidden" is appropriate. I think "skeeve" (pronounced "schkeeve") is a better way of putting it. Just...don't.
re: southernitalian
What I am trying to understand is the idea that there are legitimate Italian recipes that do combine the two, at least at least one Italian cookbook that I have, versus the idea that there are no exceptions to the rule of not combining the two.. Have you found that not to be the case?
re: MMRuth
Who knows? Maybe it's more of an italian-American thing? You don't eat beef, pork or chicken on Christmas Eve, no hats on the bed, no purses on the floor (unless you WANT to be poor), spill salt? toss some over the shoulder, bread, salt and candles when you move in to a new house, toss a penny into a new car. I (seriously) could go on and on with the particularities of Italian-American culture (at least as it exists in NY/NJ). We're a passionate lot. Not always rational, but passionate. I can't tell you the number of men I know who have t-shirts that have American and Italian flags crossed on the front above the caption: America, we discovered it, we named it, we built it. That's passion.
re: southernitalian
I know quite a few Italian Americans and they don't really resemble your descriptions at all.
re: KTinNYC
I know plenty that _do_ fit that description to a "tee". Thing is, they're all older than 75.
Many younger Italian Americans don't give flip about those things (and a few I know don't even like Italian food. LOL. They do still cling rabidly to the 'Columbus' myth, however).
Thing change, attitudes change, and customs change.
re: MMRuth
Believe me those Sardinian and Sicilian recipes are surely not very popular in Rome and Milan.
re: golflouis
I'm sure they aren't, but that is beside the point, isn't it?
re: MMRuth
Ruth it can be beside the point for you, but people sure want to know the best standards in cuisine, for that reason in France the light is coming from Lyon and Paris, so for Italy it's from Rome and Milan; this doesn't remove any value to more provincial cuisine but if it doesn't sell in the capitals it's probably because it doesn't meet the standards of high cuisine, and this is relevant to people that want to know...otherwise anybody could declare themselves 5 stars "chefs"
re: golflouis
But the question is "why is cheese forbidden in authentic Italian fish cookery" and I'm just pointing out that there are examples of this not being the case in some regions of Italy. Of course, I suppose one can contend that Sardinian and Sicilian cuisines are not "authentic Italian."
It has nothing to do with the type of cooking you're doing. Generally, when adding cheese to a seafood dish, it tends to make the fish taste "not so fresh" and the one thing you always want to present when cooking fish is to serve the freshest fish possible. Generally, it's the use of melted cheese in these dishes. I'm with other posters here - if you like it - eat it - I don't think there's anything wrong with a little parmesano reggiano on the dish. Manga!
Of course you can eat cheese with whatever you like..there is no fault there, but if you pay close observation and attention to the taste of fish without cheese and with cheese,you will find out by yourself that those two don't marry very well..you greatly loose on the taste of the fish.
Beef, pork and veal marry very well with cheese..we all know that; already with chicken i am not so sure..but with fish it is a universal "no", because it doesn't taste so good.
re: golflouis
Golf, my feelings as well. I guess to bring it to street level it would be similiar to Hot Corned Beef on White with Mayo. It just does not go. The delicate aroma and essence of the fish is blown away by a muscular dry grating cheese.
Also, Waiters in Italy cringe when tourists ask for fromaggio on seafood. It is just not done.....Tradition has a bit to do with it too in a culture that revolves around Cibo..........
re: ospreycove
Absolutely Osprey, this is why some recipes don't cross the local or provincial level; another good example is "La coquille St-Jacques"...the one from Bretagne in France is served "gratiné" but the classic Coquille St-Jacques served in Paris and Lyon doesn't have any cheese cover as the one from Bretagne; the people from Bretagne put cheese on almost everything...probably because it is the main dairy producer region in France; many are sure familiar with the famous salted crepes loaded with cheese and béchamel from Bretagne as well..not a classic in Paris..
re: golflouis
>>>>but with fish it is a universal "no", because it doesn't taste so good.<<<<
Bullpucky. You need to go down to New Orleans, including Italian restaurants, and try some of the dishes down there. Ask Chef Besh what he thinks about cheese and seafood (Hint--one of his favorite dishes is the crab au gratin served at Bon Ton that contains AMERICAN cheese; and yes that is real cheese). There are many great oyster dishes in NO that involve parmesan.
The Italians, whoever is included under that heading, can have whatever traditions they like, and there can certainly be bad cheese/seafood dishes, but there are many many ways that seafood and cheese products go together very well.
re: Chinon00
It's also the kinds of Italian cheeses that are typically used for garnishing; they have the unpleasant effect of making fish taste like vomit.
re: Karl S
>>>they have the unpleasant effect of making fish taste like vomit.<<<
I haven't had any oysters au vomit lately, so I can't say.
re: Karl S
just like the french, the italians have hundreds of varieties of cheese, from very mild, to very strong. not everything smells like romano.
I agree with you - sometimes it'd be nice to have that salty bite of parmesan on a nice Italian fish dish. However, my Italian dad always tells us it's just not the done thing. He never explains why though...
I'm born and raised in the US but my family is from Sicily. You don't put cheese on seafood because the flavor of the cheese would overpower the flavor of the fish. Having said that, I've seen members of my family and friends--people actually FROM Sicily--put grated cheese on clam sauce. I'm sure it's due to American influence, but if it tastes good and you prefer it that way, than do it.
re: italia84
I just made red snapper ravioli - snapper, swiss chard, shitakki mushroom & lime zest - in a plain smooth tomato sauce. Something was missing, so I added some nice gouda to the sauce and it took the dish up about 10 notches!
Hurray for fish & cheese together
re: italia84
My husband's family is from Sicily and from Abruzzi, and the only way they will eat clam sauce is with ricotta mixed in. Parmesan optional.
re: foodlovergeneral
Thanks for that, I always wondered where the tradition came from. My husband WILL NOT eat clam sauce unless there's ricotta on the table, even though it's one of his favorite dishes. I only make it when I have half a tub leftover from something else.
to me it's just a matter of taste.
I for one like parm cheese on top of my shrimp scamp or Alfredo shrimp.
I was scolded in a NYC Little Italy restaurant a few years ago when I requested cheese for my seafood pasta. OK. No cheese on fish dishes. Got it. So when do I add cheese? Which sauces? What about pesto? What about marinara? what about mixing parmigiano and pecorino?
re: mfrazier8284
It seems that a lot of traditions come from generations of trial and error, along with a sense of healthiness and good tastes from a certain cultural perspective. I find it rewarding obey a given tradition in order to real get a feel for the cuisine and the culture. If Italian cooks have been taking this approach for generations, it's worth considering, no? Perhaps it's about not overpowering the fresh taste of the fish-in Italy, there seems to be a tremendous appreiciation of very fresh ingredienets. Perhaps it's a certain issue of balance and taste.
re: foodlovergeneral
@ foodlovergeneral
@ mfrazier8284
Cheese is usually used on meat sauces and veg-based sauces. Parmigiano is customarily not used in the presence of noticeable quantities of garlic or hot pepper, though pecorino romano may be. Marinara doesn't take cheese. Pesto alla genovese has cheese incorporated into it. Mixing parmigiano-reggiano and pecorino romano is done all the time. Cheese is sometimes the star of the show, as in cacio e pepe, but when it isn't, it should be used sparingly so as not to take over and hide other flavors (main problem using it with fish). It's only relatively recently that parmigiano has become a national cheese, and many localities have forgotten that they once used something else, made locally. In Rome, the native pastas are always served with pecorino romano, not parmigiano, because that is what is traditional, plus it's the right sort of flavor for something like amatriciana. Cacio e pepe is traditionally made with pecorino romano, but there is nothing about the technique that says don't use parmigiano-reggiano, which would be delicious.
re: mbfant
Yet as you know, in the US many folks in the general populace [i.e. not on Chowhound] associate "Italian food" and especially any kind of "Italian pasta dish" with copious amounts of cheese dumped on it. Just a general comment. Many USAmericans (in a general sense) seem to adore cheese, lots of it, vast quantities of it, in their food. Sigh.
When I first moved to my area (in the Midwest) I was taken aback by the "Italian food" served in some popular "Italian" places. Note double quotation marks. I had never seen so much cheese before on so-called "Italian" dishes.
Further afield and in another cuisine, there was one place in the "artsy" district here [a restaurant that went away some years ago but which was "well-regarded" by the general public and favored by the local newspaper food critic] where I had "French Onion Soup" that I would characterize as onion-flavored melted cheese with bread. That food critic I mentioned gushed about how marvelous the "soup" was and loved the cheese that came with it. From then on I knew that any place/dish he recommended I knew I should avoid.
re: huiray
I'm guessing you are cheese averse?
re: Veggo
I think he has a sense of appropriateness. Many diners have a lack of restraint-the more the better. But the best Neopolitan pizzas are not over whelmed by cheese; they have the proper balance. They are all about great crust as well. There is an awful lack of balance in American food that leads to an overabundance of cheese. I think America's obesity problem is related to the need to go overboard with everything, not just cheese, but a host of thinks.
re: huiray
Most Americans buy cheap, industrial pasta that is devoid of flavor and texture, then gussy it up with a sea of sauce and a mountain of cheese to make it palatable. Compare the size of jars of pasta sauce sold in supermarkets in the US with the ones imported from Italy (a third of the size). In Italy, the past a is a star in its own right and needs only a modest amount of sauce and cheese to make it shine. In the US, pasta is no more than a two bit player on which to throw sauce and cheese. Chowhounds excepted, of course! :-)
re: cheesemaestro
Could you name a couple of brands of what you consider 'real' pasta that are readily available....... especially in SoCal?
re: huiray
Well, yes, copious amounts of dairy are characteristic of American food ways in the Northeast, Middle Atlantic, Great Lakes, and Plains states (and then spread as Americans from those areas went to other parts of the country) because the climate, ecology and terrain was conducive to widespread dairying and dairy products (the South somewhat less so, because of heat, and the West due to lack of water until its great rivers got dammed up). I suspect the most practical reason the American way with cheese never penetrated Chinese and Indian take-out joints is that dairy is a relatively expensive food component (obviously in addition to the fact that the American way with cheese is alien to East Asian and South Asian cuisine families), whereas in European cuisines cheese was a cheaper way to supplement meat.
re: Karl S
re: Karl S
Interesting; Mexican American food has loads of cheese too. But an elegant French meal might be accompanied by a cheese course at or near the end of the meal. In it one or several complimentary cheeses might be served with bread and perhaps a fruit compote as well. The cheeses are served at room temperature which presents their flavors the best. It's an excellent experience, and some of my friends are joining us in that type of tradition.
re: foodlovergeneral
The use of cheese in real Mexican cooking is a world apart from American interpretations. I wish more Americans would seek out and enjoy the real deal.
re: Veggo
A great point. We had queasdillas in Mexico at a friends house where we stayed. The cheese was made fresh daily in a town that the domestic employee lived in that was clean, and amazingly good. It was totally delightful and even in Mexico, it was considered amazing. It was dirt cheap to buy that cheese. There was no overwhelming conglomeration of cheese, beans, rice and sauce that they call Mexican food in the U.S.
re: huiray
huiray has hit it. I think most Americans associate italian food, especially pasta, with cheese. So why shouldn't they put cheese on the clam sauce? But if you step away from the italian food/cheese association, I have a hard time coming up with many instances of cheese combined with seafood. There's the filet o'fish McD's. But cheese and clams? I'm drawing a blank. Could you imagine the the derision directed at anyone who wanted to sprinkle cheese on clam chowder? Clams casino with a blanket of melted cheese? But someone will now probably say that what I've mentioned is being done somewhere.
re: mfrazier8284
My poor Mom is still embarrassed that, when I took her to an Arthur Ave restaurant, she asked where was the parmesan for her pasta, after seeing the gorgeous hunk displayed by the front door. The waiter said, oh I assumed you wouldn't want cheese with your seafood. It could have been called mild "scolding" I guess. He did bring some but then she was afraid to use it.
My grandmother (her MIL) was Italian and Mom was always intimidated by the rules and regulations of Italian food; well and by Nana herself actually. Mom still bears a foodie scar about that incident, even though it wasn't that big of a deal, and whenever having seafood in an Italian restauarant will always retell her tale of woe. PS she still loved the meal, so it wasn't a total disaster. So, after reading all these replies, you can't say you weren't warned what the consequences may be!
re: foodlovergeneral
Oh my Mom learned her lesson, and is none the worse for it. If she ever gets back to Rome, she'll know the drill now!
Huiray notwithstanding - whose opinions I do respect - I do personally enjoy freshly-grated parmesan on my Spaghetti with Clam Sauce. Oh The Blasphemy & Horror! Lol!!
That said, & as I've said constantly on these boards, food is & always will be a matter of PERSONAL PREFERENCE. If you enjoy cheese on your Italian seafood dishes - GO FOR IT. No one - even an old-school Italian - has the right to intimate that you're wrong to do so. YOU are the one enjoying the dish.
re: Bacardi1
On the other hand, mindless adherence to habit is equally insidious. Those old school Italians may know something about their cuisine and the reasons for doing or not doing something. And if you tried it their way, you just might experience something different.
re: Phaedrus
Review of new branch of a NYC restaurant under the banner of Parmacotto; I was struck by how many dishes incorporated seafood and cheese. I've been conditoned never to combine the two when preparing Italian dishes, except for a few specifically Sardinian recipes, although I have encountered the combination in the Mezzogiorno.
Discussion of dinner at Eataly in NYC, where the poster mentions being served a dish with lobster and Taleggio, which incited a brief debate:
re: erica
Regarding the Parmacotto review: Hmm, I count just two seafood-with-cheese dishes, maybe three if you consider squid ink "seafood". Note the critic was dismayed at his seafood carbonara** "...obscured in too much cheese and egg", while his wife's oysters "...crumbled on top with a buttery mixture of crushed walnuts, bread crumbs, and pancetta..." sound a lot like Oysters Rockefeller which is a USAmerican invention. In any case, consider the targeted clientele and the location: in Manhattan's Upper East Side, for Ladies Who Lunch, folks like "...the bejeweled lady at the table next door drinking her $200 Brunello from a goblet filled with ice cubes."
Regarding Eataky and that lobster dish - I presume you mean the sub-thread descending from this post: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8446... . Heh. HEH.
** Why such a dish as "Seafood Carbonara" even exists baffles me.
re: huiray
Agreed! True, only three dishes with seafood and cheese but even that many surprised me..
re: erica
A friend of mine from Italy went to that restaurant. He thought it was a very good American restaurant. While they have actual Piemontese beef-amazing for the U.S.-the styles are Americanized.
Japanese Sushi chefs think Americans put too much soy sauce and wasabi on the fish, covering up it's delicate flavors. I think the same thing applies. Good lobster and good fish are too delicate and delicious to be covered up by a strong intense cheese like parmesian or teleggio.
re: Phaedrus
I've had "Spaghetti with Clam Sauce" without cheese (oh - & I'm talking about the white version here), & I still prefer it with a dusting of freshly-grated Parmesan.
re: Bacardi1
Chacun à son goût.
I suppose, as you said above.
p.s. Too kind, with your compliments.
re: huiray
Certain sont mauvais. Mauvaise compréhension de la nourriture crée une mauvaise expérience culinaire.
Bad taste in food makes for bad cuisine.
Certainly the French would not tend that much to agree with "chacun a son gout" in food.
re: Bacardi1
I think if an old school Italian tells me I am wrong to combine foods a particular way, I will test out his thesis and try it his way to learn about his culture instead of insisting on my own narrow view-"I'm going to put my Kraft cheese on my Olive Garden spaghetti with clams-which is MY preference-regardless of what you say about real Italian food". I suppose anyone can choose whatever they want. But is it a desirable way to enjoy your food experience?
re: foodlovergeneral
Agree there, too.
re: Bacardi1
A couple of things come to my mind here. I haven't read this entire thread so forgive me if I missed it, but I have not ever heard anyone say WHY cheese/fish are considered an off-limits combination. I've always wondered myself. The other thing that occurs me is that it's surely a matter of degree, and not an absolute. For instance, Spaghetti with Clam sauce. To me, any cream sauce in a pasta is getting some cheese grated in it. I don't think the 'rule' applies as much here because the clams aren't the dominant element. They're being covered in cream sauce for pete's sake - how atrocious is it then, to make that cream sauce taste as wonderful as you can? I believe strongly that in an instance like that, cheese is totally called for. Same with risotto. Are you really not going to put cheese in a risotto because there are prawns in it too? On the other hand, when the star of the show is the seafood then I think, yes, that guideline holds true. I think people are inclined to take that guideline - and that's all it is - a little too literally.
re: TheCarrieWatson
Here are the Cliff Notes. Just don't ask me about The Canterbury Tales:
1. WHY. cheese strong, expensive fish delicate.
2. MATTER OF DEGREE In theory, sure. But in practice, go ahead and find a seafood risotto recipe with cheese on the internet using ".it" as the domain exclusion. I'll wait here while you Google it.
3. EAT WHAT YOU LIKE. But don't include it in an educational dinner showcasing Italian Fish Cookery.
re: Steve
4. FOOD USED TO BE LOCAL. places near the sea did not keep dairy cows so cheese was not common in their cookery or pantry. regardless of everybody on here thinking marcella hazan is the be-all-end-all of italian food, she cooks from emilia-romagna. "italy" only came together as a nation-state in 1861. it was then, and still remains, fiercely provincial.
my family came from near naples. i only had cream sauce on pasta in restaurants. and no, we did not put cheese on fish.
Often, it seems, cultures that really relish seafood-especially very fresh seafood-by the sea seem to be light handed in terms of flavoring their fish. Real "yueh-tsai" cooking in China is a good example. The fish and vegetables from this region on the Eastern coast of China are very lightly spiced compared to the heavier spicier dishes more inland to the West, such as Szichuan or Hunan. I think when Chinese or Italians came to the states in the 20th century some of the cooking changed because America didn't have such great incredients readily available to most people until late in the 20th century. Hence, people got used to frozen fish.
Someone mentioned that their Sicilian American wife thinks "if it tastes good, put it on". In Sicily, they don't put cheese on fish, though some post insists that they do in Sardinia.
I think if it tastes good, why not? BUt if it hides the flavor of some fantastic incredient, why?


text:
Fire Crews Put Out Gibson County, IN, Grain Bin Fire
About 75,000 bushels of corn were inside the bin[Read More]
About 75,000 bushels of corn were inside the bin[Read More]
The closed grain elevator is being transformed into brewery[Read More]
Expected to improve efficiency and achieve more effective operation of the businesses[Read More]
Harvest remains far behind the five-year average[Read More]
97.8% of participants rejected the proposal[Read More]
Presents a fresh, dynamic and striking company logo[Read More]
Rail transportation tops the concerns of farmers this year as they prepare to harvest what's expected to be a massive corn crop.[Read More]
Tucked away mere miles from downtown Indianapolis lies ADM's newly expanded Beech Grove, IN, wheat milling facility — the third largest flour mill in the U.S.[Read More]
Instruct employees to first assess temperature, atmosphere and operator's skill set.[Read More]
Reinforce your safety culture before the busiest season arrives[Read More]
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Brazil is on its way to overtake the USA as the world's largest producer of soy and is currently the second largest producer of beef. This makes this country an interesting place for agricultural investment[Read More]

subset: commoncrawl


text:
ADA Info
The Great Books Discussion Group will meet Monday, August 16 at 7:00 pm to discuss Masks by George Santayana.
The group meets in the 2nd floor WCR conference room at the library on the 3rd Monday of each month.
Visit sites around the world without leaving town! Checkout the library travel section for books on Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, the Americas and more. Here are a few titles to get you started:
Shadow of the Silk Road by Colin Thubron
The Other Side of Russia: a slice of life in Siberia and the Russian Far East by Sharon Hudgins
That Summer in Sicily by Marlena De Blasi
The River at the Center of the World by Simon Winchester
You can still join the Adult summer reading club. Read four books and be eligible for prizes. Choose your favorite authors or titles and relax with a book out of the heat. Register by August 7th and enter your books in your log by august 14th. Go to www.hcpl.net to register.
Here are some cool titles to help you chill out:
Whiteout by Ken Follett
Snow Falling on Cedars by David Guterson
The Shining by Stephen King
Never Cry Wolf by Farley Mowat
Do I have to take driver's ed to get a driver's license? Can I get a marriage license for free? Come see how to use Texas Statutes online and Gale Legal Forms at our Legal Research Database Demo, one of our monthly Database Demo presentations to be held Friday July 2, 2010 at 11 AM, in our second floor computer lab. These classes are popular so please register by going online or by calling the library.
Join the fun with the adult services staff at the Barbara Bush Branch Library. Read or listen to only four books and be eligible for prizes. Go to this website and register: ReaderNation. This is also where you record the books you've read. The registration for the program runs through August 7th, so there is still lots of time to get involved.
Three entries will be selected from a random drawing of all readers who complete the program. The prizes are bookstore gift cards in the amounts of $200.00 (1st prize), $150.00 (2nd prize), and $100.00 (3rd prize). The Barbara Bush Branch Library will also select a winner from a random drawing of our readers completing the program. The prize will be a $50.00 bookstore gift card.
June 3 at 10:00
On Thursday, May 20 at 1:30 the library will present a seminar by Workforce Solutions titled "Interviewing." Get advice on effective interviewing techniques, how to respond appropriately to common interview questions, and how to negotiate salary and benefits for your new job. The interview is where jobs are won or lost. Ensure that your chances of getting the job are high.
The seminar will be held in the Earl Elliott meeting room of the library, which is located at 6817 Cypresswood Drive in Spring. Call 281-376-4610 for more information. No registration is required. There will be no employer's representatives present at the seminar.
Stop in the lobby of the library and enjoy the cultural items provided by the staff of the Barbara Bush Branch Library in honor of Asian-Pacific American Heritage month. These items will be on display for your enjoyment during May. We are a well-travelled and diverse staff and we are happy to share our treasures with you, our customers.
What happens at the library on an average day? Tomorrow we plan to find out. We will be taking pictures at programs, and asking you why you come to visit the library, and why the library is important to you.
What services that we offer do you use the most, computer classes, databases, entertainment, DVDs, books, business research, job seeking, etc.? Stop at one of the Information Desks and share your ideas with us.
On Thursday, April 15 the Barbara Bush Branch Library will host a Workforce Solutions job search seminar from 1:30-4:00 pm titled "Rebranding Your Skills." Expand your job search prospects by rebranding your skills. This workshop will teach you to identify the skills you have gained in the past and present them in a way that catches the attention of employers, thus helping you to move into a new job or even a new industry.
The workshop will be held in the Earl Elliott Meeting Room on the 1st floor of the library, which is located at 5817 Cypresswood Drive in Spring. Call 281-376-4610 for more information. No registration is required. There will be no employer's representatives at these seminars.
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text:
All News
The Fur Trade Today - 03/17/05
The pine marten once was common in Wisconsin but the species was considered exterminated by 1925 as a direct result of over trapping and habitat loss. Efforts to reintroduce pine marten in the 1970s and 1980s established populations in the Nicolet and Chequamegon national forests, but there is no evidence that they are expanding, said Jim Woodford, Department of Natural Resources wildlife ecologist..
"The Nicolet population of pine marten appears to be a shrinking population" and a similar trend has been noticed in the Chequamegon, he said. "There is pretty good evidence marten are susceptible to nontarget trapping ... they are taken incidental to other trapping efforts." "Pine marten are a state endangered species, so the taking of marten is not allowed at all," Woodford added.
Fishers, also a species that was virtually eliminated by trappers in the early 20th century, were reintroduced into many of the same areas as pine martens. Trapping is allowed for fishers in most northern counties under a limited permit system, but that might carry fatal consequences for marten. "There is no way to exclude marten from traps set for other animals," Woodford said. "Marten are very susceptible to trapping. In our efforts to trap marten for our studies, we caught some of the same martens every day."
Source: Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune, 02/27/05
Global retail sales reached $11.7 Billion (US) in 2004 according to a survey by the International Fur Trade Federation (IFTF). The total included sales of all-fur garments, as well as fur-trimmed apparel and accessories in 30 countries. The IFTF says this was a 2.8% increase over the 2003 total.
Source: Sandy Parker Reports, 02/28/05
The Burnaby, British Columbia police are warning families with young children and guardians of companion animals to be careful, after a house cat got caught in a leg-hold trap. Angus, a two-year-old shorthaired cat, was seriously injured and may lose his leg after stepping into a leghold trap on February 25.
Source: http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_cat-trap20050301
February's retail sales were said to be disappointing for most U.S. fur retailers, and this is said to be even more of a disappointment because sales during November, December and January — the three biggest fur selling months of the year and the period when 80% to 90% of all fur is sold — did not reach retailer's expectations. When all was said and done, the year as a whole saw flat sales figures. Consensus is that sales of electronics, home improvements and vacations were more than likely to have taken the dollars that were expected to be spent on furs.
Federated Department Stores' move to buy May Department Stores has created the largest department store company in the U.S. The acquisition is not expected to impact the fur departments at Federated stores, but could have an effect on some May stores. May previously had a maintained a no-fur policy but in 2003 Lord & Taylor leased space to B.C. International for a Ben Kahn fur department. Last year when May acquired Marshall Field, it retained the B.C. fur department that was already there. No other May stores have fur departments at this time.
Source: Sandy Parker Reports, 03/07/05
A surge in the use of "astrakhan," a fur similar to broadtail, means death for thousands of spring lambs in Uzbekistan.
According to Sean Gifford, PeTA's director of European campaigns: "Upwards of 4m lambs are slaughtered every year for these coats. A ewe can usually have four births in a lifetime. The first three lambs are slaughtered after they are born. But the mother is butchered 15 to 30 days before giving birth to the fourth lamb. The unborn lamb is then ripped from her belly. Its skin has not had a chance to develop so it is softer and more highly valued."
Andrea Martin, of the British Fur Trade Association, did not deny that the skins of fetuses are used. "Karakul sheep and lambs provide an important source of food as well as other income from skins and wools."
Astrakhan has been used to make whole coats, collars on jackets and trim on evening dresses.
Source: www.timesonline.co.uk, 03/06/05
A Mat-Su, Alaska man discovered more than two dozen skinned carcasses in a pile along the Knik River and according to Alaska State Troopers, it's not uncommon to find such piles at this time of year.
For Ed Krueger, the discovery was difficult to stomach. "My friend and I were out walking our dogs and happened to come across it. I counted at least 35 (skinned carcasses). It's disgusting. It's unbelievable," Krueger said.
John Frey, a deputy officer with Mat-Su Animal Care and Regulation, said a trapper apparently picked this spot to dump the animal remains, also called a trapper's cache. "You got everything from coyotes, these big guys in here are wolves," Frey said. "Right now, I guess, I was told the heads are going for about $100 a skull."
Police say it is not uncommon for trappers to dump the carcasses of animals in a public place.
"By people doin' what just happened out there, gives everybody a black eye," said Kenny Barber of the Trappers Association of the Mat-Su. "A responsible trapper does two things with them," Barber says. "He either takes them to the dump or he has what he calls a 'bait site' where he takes these animals out — the carcasses of these animals — lays 'em out to harvest other animals, like wolverines or cats or whatever it may be."
Source: www.ktuu.com, 03/07/05
Landowners in the state of Washington would not need a permit to use body-gripping traps to catch moles, gophers, and other specified nuisance animals, under a bill that passed the Senate yesterday, modifying a voter-approved ban on most animal trapping. The bill which also restores some commercial sale of trapped fur passed on a 40–8 vote. It now heads to the House. The bill lists nuisance species as Columbian ground squirrels, Eastern grey squirrels, gophers, mice, moles, mountain beaver, opossum, and rats. Landowners may trap other animals with non-body-gripping traps without a license or permit.
Under the bill, the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission would establish rules on types of traps and use of bait, but the rules would not allow the use of traps with teeth or serrated edges or any spring pole type device. Also, trappers and nuisance wildlife control operators would have to submit an annual catch record to the department.
Voters banned most animal trapping and commercial sales of pelts in 2000, but almost immediately, the initiative's sponsors sought to allow trapping of moles and gophers that were provoking public outcry.
Source: Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 03/08/05 & 03/09/05
Oreo Cookie, a 15-month-old black Lab and Border Collie mix, died when a Conibear trap snapped shut on her neck in Alaska's Chugach State Park, said Oreo's guardian Mel Strauch of Anchorage. The incident happened early on March 7. The trap was illegally set, since trapping season for some animals in that area of the state park ended February 28, said Mike Goodwin, the park's chief ranger
Strauch, his partner Suzanne Moore, and their two dogs, Oreo and a golden retriever mix named Savannah, entered the park early Monday afternoon. Within minutes Strauch and Moore noticed that Oreo was missing. Strauch immediately began thinking the worst. "The first thing I said to Suzanne, 'God, I hope there's no trapping around here,'" he said. Oreo had stuck her head into the opening of a small teepee. The trap was hidden by the twigs and snow, connected to a wire. Strauch tried to open the trap but Oreo was already dead.
Other dogs have been injured by traps in Chugach State Park and nearby environs over the years, but Goodwin could not remember one being killed. A dog got its leg caught in a trap in Beach Lake Park near Birchwood earlier this year, said trooper Kim Babcock of the Bureau of Wildlife Enforcement. Traps have indeed killed dogs elsewhere and fairly recently, too, said Kneeland Taylor, an Anchorage lawyer who proposed to the state Board of Game in 2001 that traps be banned near popular park trails in Alaska.
Trappers feel the dog owners are as much responsible for what happens to their dogs as the trapper and should have their pets under control, said Bruce Bartley, a trapper who is a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.
Source: Anchorage Daily News, 03/09/05
Kathryn Hoot's Jack Russell terrier named Ruby was killed by a conibear trap set in a thicket adjacent to a trail leading from TouVelle State Park into a portion of the 1,900-acre wildlife area in White City, Oregon. Since the January incident, the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, has banned conibear traps and body snares, now allowing only leg-hold traps and cage traps until the current trapping season ends March 31. Signs warn the roughly 40,000 annual visitors where traps may be placed and also when and where the trapping occurs.
Waymon Stanfield — the Eagle Point trapper whose trap killed the dog — died a week after Ruby's death. His grandson, Stephen Price remains the only other permitted trapper in the wildlife area.
Source: www.mailtribune.com, 03/13/05
The New York State Conservation Council says that mink skins are in oversupply internationally, apparently because fur factory farmers have bred too many animals. American fur sellers are holding onto too much inventory and it is thought that this could impact upcoming auctions.
According to Tom Krause, editor of the American Trapper magazine, the traditional #1-1/2 coil spring leghold traps have not been approved for use in trapping raccoons by the BMP trap tests. The traps came up with poor scores for efficiency and welfare standards. [#1-1/2 coil spring traps are among the most widely used traps — JM]
Source: New York State Conservation Council, 03/00/05
According to the German Fur Association, Germany's domestic fur sales are sluggish and the country's entire fur industry is down to approximately 250 wholesalers and 850 retailers (down from 876 at this time in 2004). Reflecting this, the Fur and Fashion Frankfort trade show shrunk in size once again this year. The largest fur show from an exhibitor standpoint is now MIFUR, held in Milan, Italy.
American Legend will hold its final auction of the year in Whistler, B.C., Canada instead of in Seattle, Washington. Foreign fur buyers are apparently worried about returning to the U.S. considering the investigation into possible industry anti-trust law violations. This will be Legend's second auction held in B.C.
Source: Sandy Parker Reports, 03/14/05