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Is a purely logical debate possible?
Is it possible to have a debate with absolutely no emotion and using only logic? I cant imagine it being possible because even if you craft a perfectly logical argument and remove your own emotion your listeners will still receive and analyze it in light of their own emotions. As a subquestion what emotions do you think predominate debate? I would say anger and fear. Would it be possible to change that? I'm thinking of this especially in light of persuasive debate, when you want someone to do something for you.
Topics: Civil discourse Debate arguments
Sep 5 2013: I think a better question is: Is a purely logical debate desirable?
That would be difficult to say no to, if it were possible. Since it's not, I think the effort to remove emotion from debate is undesirable. We have all been taught that our emotions and our preferences are bad reasons to think a certain way, so more often than not we reason and rationalize a logical front for our emotions, so that our words sound logical when the real foundation for the point we're making is how we feel. This kind of false argument is unhelpful, in my opinion. I feel like arguments can be more calm, productive, and informative when we accept our emotions and incorporate them into our arguments. When we bare our souls, so to speak, our logic can accompany our emotions instead of serving as a front for them.
Sep 6 2013: Depends on how much the person knows him/herself? How open minded a person is to different perceptions/perspectives? Intent? Does a person simply want to "win" the debate? Or does s/he genuinely want to hear and/or consider other ideas? I think/feel the person decides whether or not s/he will be constrained or expanded.....yes? no? maybe? I'm waiting for David to respond too:>)
Sep 6 2013: I like and agree with your comment too David. As multi sensory, multi dimensional human beings, it seems that it would not be possible to totally remove all emotions from a debate.
It has been mentioned already on this thread that what feels logical to one person, may not feel logical to another person. So, as you say...what we feel about something is the foundation of a debate and we can reason and rationalize a logical front for our emotions.
I also believe that arguments can be more calm, productive and clear when we recognize and accept our emotions and incorporate them into the debate. To "Know thyself" and know where our thoughts, feelings, ideas, beliefs and opinions are coming from in our "self" is an important piece when/if our intent is to keep anger and fear out of the debate.
Elizabeth Gu 30+Sep 15 2013: I don't think there's a such thing as a purely logical debate.
Every debate is based on intellectual conflicts, which provoke (even the slightest) anger.
All people who take their stands on an argument want to appeal to the listeners to make them agree with them. And especially, when the opponents rub their noses in it, they can't help feeling embarrassed and want to restore their calm and clever position(even the calmest person in the room feels such a thing as emotion. ) In an effort to do that, they try to think of something that sounds cleverer, which is partly inspired by their emotion.
It's almost impossible to entirely exclude one's emotion from the process of arguing.
Elizabeth Gu 30+
Sep 12 2013: *My picture of the constructive debate:*
In a constructive debate every person, first of all, fairly strives to understand his opponent. To understand what aspects of his worldview made him to think so. To understand the language that the opponent is using (his circle of concepts). To understand the true interests of the opponent.
Depending on the answers on these questions, not always the debate is possible.
But if possible, then the goal of constructive debate is to minimize the mistakes of own subjectivism. To do so, every person should ask himself, where is my opponent right and where I am not right (two important different questions). Everybody should correct his own view himself.
If person is not able to participate in constructive debate because of current mindset. Then you have to accept this as a fact of objective reality. And then probably the best what you can do for him and for peace in the world, is to ask one simple but powerful question that will influence the thinking of the opponent in a positive way. But no persuasions, only one Socratic question.
If debate is not possible because of speaking different languages. Then it is better to accept this earlier than later. And if the debate really has value for both, then both have to learn enough the language of their opponent to meet on some middleground and continue the debate. Here with middleground I mean such circle of concepts that will be enough clear to both parties. Here with "enough" I mean enough for constructive debate as it is being felt subjectively by both.
* * *
So, in my view, what we all could constructively do in context of the question set by Sam Blaine, is to discuss on "what is constructive debate" and then develop behavioral stereotypes for our civilization and then spread it using various media like: own behavior, essays and speeches, books and movies, and other media of the cultural code depending on our potential.
Sep 12 2013: First of all, need to define the goal of debate. And here we have the problem, cos there are usually two sides participating in the debates. Therefore to be fair, you have to analyze different combination of possible goals of both parties.
You say: "I'm thinking of this especially in light of persuasive debate".
So, does it mean that you want to persuade somebody in something? And what is your goal then?
1) Just to persuade without questioning whether you are right at all?
2) Or, to understand fairly the interests of another party, then fairly figure out for yourself if your proposal truly fits his interests, and *if so* then show how "what you are proposing" fits the interests of your friend? Otherwise to change your own mind: not mind of your friend.
3) Your variant?
So, basically, are you ready yourself to change your mind during a debate? Are you ready to doubt the fundamentals of your position that you feel is true? Or your goal is to win? To win for what goal? For goal of domination?
The problem lies in the nonconstructive culture of having debate. There is no behavioral stereotypes spread in the society, which could be used for a constructive dialogue instead of nonconstructive debate. I think that true democracy starts from a dialogue. So far we are far away from it. And if you want to approach this, then we have to rethink our culture and start spreading new behavioral stereotypes: influence Hollywood directors and school pedagogues. The problem is that rare people think about future today. And the problem we face is just not resolvable in the current generation. Cultural engineering is not a matter of one generation. And if the Hollywood and like that has such big power, why this power is not accountable to the people like the legislative, executive and judicial ones?
*Abstract algorithmic of debates:*
Nonconstructive: The person asks himself where my opponent is not right?
Constructive: The person asks himself where my opponent is right and I am not?
Diana PhamSep 11 2013: I don't think so. If you're having a debate in which both parties only express the logical and rational side of a topic, then it would be pretty one sided, and not much of a debate, more of a discussion.
Say you wanted to debate the topic of global warming-whether it's real or not. Most of the facts will point in one direction, leaving the other side to rely on opinions and the power of persuasion.
Scott Bell 30+
Sep 24 2013: It is a tricky question :) . Because human biology won't let it happen... You have hormones in your body, this is human nature. Maybe you work on something scientific, and want to express only the logical bases of the reaults, you won't be able to do it. Because your initial aim is proving your argument and you want to show it to people. If not, why are you doing this debate :). So, your subconscious will have an intention to presuade the audience. So, every debate will include emotions. But, I have another question, why do you want to exclude emotions? They are the mile stones of persuasion in a debate, because people especially look for reliability. I'm not telling you to convince people for something that is not reliable, but if you really believe it and feel it, just let it go.. And if you are wrong, than you can accept it with courage and without arrogance.
Sep 24 2013: Ambrose Bierce
"Logic, n. The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding. The basic of logic is the syllogism, consisting of a major and a minor premise and a conclusion - thus:
Major Premise: Sixty men can do a piece of work sixty times as quickly as one man.
Minor Premise: One man can dig a post-hole in sixty seconds; Therefore-
Conclusion: Sixty men can dig a post-hole in one second.
This may be called syllogism arithmetical, in which, by combining logic and mathematics, we obtain a double certainty and are twice blessed."
Steven Why 50+Sep 12 2013: It is possible, all you have to do is remove your own ego from the equation.
Further there is no such thing as persuasive debate, as if you have an agenda, it therefore explicitly implies your ego will be effected by not getting the outcome you seek. A true debate is where neither party has any predetermination to a specific outcome and only arrive at a goal via reason and understanding.
Unfortunately for humanities sake, we have a long way to go to achieve that goal of removing ego from the equation. Until then I'd suggest that at least we try to remain cordial.
Santokh Saggu 10+Sep 6 2013: The purely logical debate is possible only among computers. The very moment two people start to debate , that is the proof that their emotions have instigated them to start a debate. Other wise why would two people debate if there would be no emotions , both will be happy without debate.The emotion which instigates the two people to start the debate is EGO and from ego springs out many variants of emotions.Logic is often used to justify the emotions.
Sep 12 2013: Unfortunately you cant see the benefit of this type of discussion, viz "Other wise why would two people debate if there would be no emotions".
I present that maybe the people in Syria, deserve a debate like this, before the US unilaterally bombs these peoples. After all once those bombs kill, and that is their sole purpose, there is no going back.
Sep 6 2013: Hi Scott.
I am a Christian, that became logical to me after I was obliged to check it out. Prior to this I just dismissed it on reputation (false as it turned out).
We can look at things logically, but we have to be pretty surgical in removing our prejudice in whatever subject we are studying. Then we can stick to known facts, although our conclusions will normally be an opinion based on these facts. It is all too easy to take the route of trusting 'experts'; that usually means accepting their prejudice. What we really need are the facts that have led them to their conclusion.
So we can have what appears to be a logical debate, but usually only with others with the same prejudice.
Having said that; the Truth is out there. Just tackle the candidates logically, without prejudice, and the Truth should be obvious.
Sep 6 2013: I enjoyed your remarks. You've made some good points. Your comments on truth reminded me of something I read a while back. Something like.....
"We swim in Truth like fish swim in water. It need not be sought for we're In It. Seek only those things Within that veil Our View of Truth. Those things that limit Perceptions. Truth cannot be found. It must uncovered from Within"
Have a great weekend!
Sep 6 2013: To claim that Christianity is a logical outcome of consideration of the relevant facts is to offer the mother of all non sequitur debates and posit it as founded on logic, in which case, we may conclude that your use of the word logic is (with all due respect) deeply flawed. A religion that relies on evidence of attributed revelation to historical unwitnessed characters we never met, and know nothing of, is so far from logic as to be ludicrous. I offer you a prophet ostensibly spoken to by his donkey, a man who lived in a big fish, 3 men who survived in a furnace, a man who remained unharmed in a den of wild lions, a city whose walls fell down at the blast of trumpets, a spinning chariot, a temporarily receding sea, the appearance of angels at odd times, a virgin birth and much else that defies any known logic except the most extremely irrational misunderstanding of the word. I wouldn't know where logic can be used to verify Noah's gathering of billions of fertile pairs of globally distributed animals and plants, let alone how his vessel might have held, fed and preserved them, leave alone perfectly replace them into flood-destroyed environments to thrive. Whatever arguments you may offer - and I've heard them all - logic bares no relation to religion whatsoever, and, nothing personal, but merely asserting it does based on your personally constructed redefinition of what we mean by logic doesn't cut it. If you mean it became obvious or convincing or appealing to you as a theory of existence; granted, it may have, (any faithful Muslim or Hindu might argue likewise), but where is the logic we are considering in any of that? Logic isn't whatever you want it to be; it is the branch of philosophy concerned with inference. You are not referring to logic, but to argument, or intuition or somesuch.
Sep 12 2013: What is the truth? The truth is that your name is Scott Bell.
There is no absolute abstract Truth. The truth is always very concrete and specific to concrete situations.
If somebody has some opinion about some phenomenon --> this is a truth about his opinion.
If somebody has another opinion about the same phenomenon --> this is a truth about his opinion.
But how somebody can recognize which of two opinions is true? The practice is the criteria. The truth is measured by the ability to forecast the behavior of the phenomenon for achievement of some goals.
And actually it is better to use word "effective". And to not use word "true". If one estimates somebody's opinion or decision, it is better to say "this is effective or not effective for such and such goals". Same solution can have different effectiveness for different goals. There are no true solutions, but effective or not effective.
There is no abstract truth. Truth is always very concrete and relates to our true goals.
What is the true goals?
The true goals are not what the person says to other or to himself. The true goals are the estimation of what person really does with his real actions. The same actions can be estimated with different goals. This estimation is always subjective. This estimation is not true or not true. The estimation is effective or not effective. Can you effectively estimate your own true goals?
Quite different questions is what is the right goals? The matter is that the effectiveness of all goals is measured against other goals of higher order. Thus we come to the question: is there right goals? I mean the goals of some highest order, against which we estimate effectiveness of all other goals, decisions and actions. Also could be called the concept of my life
But answer on this question completely relates to concrete worldview of each particular person. This is why I believe that it is impossible to have a constructive debate without effective understanding of somebody's worldview
Oct 3 2013: Logic is merely the set of variables you use to analyze a certain subject or object. The term logic is not indicative of truth or facts.
Your logic is subjective just like emotions. Many times your logic is based, at least in part, on your emotions. You cannot have a debate without logic.
A purely logical debate is preferred. If you aren't using logic you may be arguing based on random thoughts or ideas. Logic ensures that you are checking your thoughts for validity based on a set of predefined variables.
Oct 3 2013: A logical debate could be considered an exchange of facts and their strengths. With that being said you would HAVE to limit what is said and how you respond. Setting up to have a logical debate would have parameters and guidelines. Once those are changed you are now in a different type of debate - to persuade or to defend. You would assume that any debate has a base of logic unless you are looking to debate on something that has a possibility - another dimension, etc. I would prefer to see a debate with a sense of emotion and or passion. The outcome might be determined on the intensity of your presentation.
Tifa Ong
Oct 3 2013: On of example of logical debate when we are debating for getting rid of unknown by defending our positions. Other will spot the flaws which we have yet perceived or at our blind angle. In this imperfect information scenaro, both will learn and improve and expand their knowledge. I think US presidential debate is close to perfect logical debate as both different view of future and their own best offer sutions. Just try to look beyond the drama and action. At the end of game, US citizen gain better fact and making better decision. Cheers
Oct 2 2013: Yes Sam Blaine, Its possible if debate is between 2 Robots who are rich by Artificial Intelligence :D LOL
Jokes Apart !
NO! ITS NOT POSSIBLE,, According to Wikipedia, the Debate is contention in argument; dispute, controversy..... Well, we can see all the reasons those are responsible for the birth of a debate, actually are offspring of emotional quarrel. Dispute happens when one's emotion make him/her to support something and other's not. Even an argument is not possible if one not get hurt emotionally by other one..... :)
Sep 29 2013: We can make logical statements. A debate implies conflicting ideas. It is important to make or interpret logical statements without emotion. People form logical statements with conviction. When a contrary set of logical statements is presented we naturally fight our convictions. To accept new logic is to throw away an old set. It would be unnatural to do this without emotion. The real question is - why is it important to remove emotion?
The foundation of an idea should be boundless. Otherwise we aren't being creative.
Sep 27 2013: Human beings are incapable of forming thought without emotion or bias. In what synaptic void might an idea arise that is not in some way affected by previous experience and perception? And into what compartment of the brain could an idea, or any input to the senses, be received and stored without feeling? Logic is a construct or framework that is used, it seems to me, just as often to justify a position as it is to arrive at one.
The primal, adrenalin-pumping emotions once gave us an evolutionary advantage, but they are counterproductive in resolving conflict or solving issues today. Knowing that we cannot fully eliminate unhealthy emotions, perhaps we would be better off replacing them. What if we could replace anger with more temperate feelings, such as indignation or irritation? Anger requires cultivating, and the world would be a better place if we would all stop looking for ways to feed our anger, and strove to hold our tempers.
But of all the emotions, fear is the most harmful, as it produces irrationality and a multitude of false assumptions. Fear either paralyzes, making us unable to function, or it mobilizes us into doing something that is, more often than not, ill-advised. What if we replaced fear with concern, and then followed this concern by performing a fact-based risk assessment, in order to allay our concerns? We all need to ask ourselves what we're afraid of, and even though we may not entirely eliminate fear, we should never stop trying to overcome it.
Sep 27 2013: I don't know.
It would imply that we can be completely logical...
Though I get thrilled (and emotional) when I had debates that come close to it. (I love debates with high quality arguments and passion, and eagerness to remove each others fallacies and thank each other for doing so...)
One thing you need to learn: be glad if you are proven to be wrong, and admit you are learning from each other.
Doesn't mean that I am able to do that...
Sep 24 2013: Yes, I think it is possible to have a "purely" logical debate. Take Socrates and other philosophical dialogues. Their dialogues are based on logic. I think we need to clarify that pure logic should not be devoid of emotion because it's part of our human make-up. I don't think logic becomes impossible due to relativism because emotion (or as other people call "your perspective" "your experiences") play a role. In my opinion relativism is a scourge for debate, honesty, truth. Logic debate is possible. Pure logic I think needs to be clarified more. In my opinion a human being can do pure logic.. because a human being is not "pure". He/She is will, intellect and emotion.
Oct 2 2013: No Catherine, I do not agree this. Philosophical dialogues are purely dialogues (and logical too), like what Socrates says. Debate is an argument not dialogues. When Socrates says something he do not argue to accept him and to follow him. He says what is not not logical ( or 'pure logical' in our language.
Debate is only possible when someone's emotion becomes stir. when he/she do not agree this or that. when one thinks he/she is right not the other one. Dialogue do not have those Consequences....


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Alexander Raises More Than $900K, Launches New Ad
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Republican Senator Lamar Alexander has raised more than $900,000 in the second quarter and has more than $3.4 million on hand in the final weeks before the primary.
Alexander's campaign is also launching a new television ad stressing the senator's opposition to President Barack Obama's health care law.
The former two-term governor is running for a third term this year, and faces tea party-styled opposition in the GOP primary from state Representative Joe Carr of Murfreesboro and Memphis radio station owner George Flinn.
Carr this week challenged the incumbent to a series of debates before the August 7 primary, but Alexander as shown little interest. Early voting begins July 18.
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What's the pghzinefair?
Pittsburgh |ˈpitsˌbərg|
an industrial city in southwestern Pennsylvania, where the Allegheny and Monongahela rivers join to form the Ohio River; pop. 334,563.
zine |zēn| (also 'zine)
noun informal
a self-published, non-commercial piece of work (comic books, fiction and poetry booklets, mixed media) that fosters individual or small community expression.
fair 2 |fɛ(ə)r| |fɛː|
an exhibition to promote particular products : the Pittsburgh Zine Fair.


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[ themetsource.com
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METALLICA's Orion Music + More To Include Q&A With 'Murder in the Front Row' Co-Author - June 20, 2012
This coming weekend (June 23-24), METALLICA's heralded Orion Music + More festival will present ARCTIC MONKEYS, AVENGED SEVENFOLD, MODEST MOUSE, ROKY ERICKSON, and dozens of emerging metal and rock bands, plus a full metal expo, including an hourlong question-and-answer session with "Murder In The Front Row: Shots From The Bay Area Thrash Metal Epicenter" co-author and photographer Brian Lew.
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Run-Time Error '32809'
I am receiving a "Run-Time Error '32809', Application-defined or object-defined error", on code that was previously error free. The line that is throwing the error is the following:
If Application.ActiveSheet.Name <> "Prices" Then 'more below, all worked prior to today
Playing with the immediate window, it appears that the Sheet object no longer works, and any reference to a worksheet (through either ActiveSheet or Sheets(1) or Sheets("Prices") etc no longer works. I've checked references to see if something has changed, and I can't see anything missing.
To check that this was the problem, I inserted a line above the If Then statement of Application.Workbooks("Actual Workbook Name").Activate. This line worked, but the code still errored out at the same place. When I changed that inserted line to Application.Workbooks("Actual Workbook Name").Sheets("Prices").Activate the code errors out (same error) on this line.
I'm running Excel 2007 in an XP environment.
Any ideas?
All replies
No, that's not it (yes, I have a sheet named 'Prices' and there is no space in the code for the name of the sheet). I could be looking for Sheets(1) or ActiveSheet and I get the error. The error is for an object not existing, and ActiveSheet should be existing. And the code worked for the last two months, but stopped working today. No updates applied that I know of (networked PC, updates controlled by our SysAdmin).
That was the obvious thing. Ok, next, F8 through the code and see what the variable is, in the Immediate Window, just before the code breaks and right after the code breaks. Do you see anything?
If nothing has changed in the past 2 months, and if everything 'seems' correct to you, maybe a simple reboot will fix the issue. I've noticed that Ctrl-Breaks build up over time. For instance, if I'm running code and do several Ctrl+Breaks, after a while, sometimes, my code will fail for no reason whatsoever. The code could fail on something as simple as selecting a Sheet. There is no reason for it, other than the build-up of control-breaks. A simple restart always work for me!


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Looking aft into the master suite head and down the hallway onto the salon
Endeavour TrawlerCats are known for having bright, functional, well ventilated heads with large, separate shower stalls. The TrawlerCat 48 carries on this tradition. This spacious yacht has two fully equipped heads. The owner's private head, accessible only from the owner's stateroom has a gigantic Roman style shower stall, first class cabinetry and all the amenities you'd expect to find in a luxury yacht.
The guest head is comparably equipped with oval sinks, Gibraltar counter tops and high-polish, stainless steel fixtures, and of course, another shower stall.


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- Funding Received
- $0 in 1 Round from 1 Investor
- Most Recent Funding
- Series A on February 11, 2014 / Undisclosed Amount
- Headquarters:
- Troy, MI
- Description:
- 365 Retail Markets uses self-checkout vending technology to improve the vending and food-service space.
- Categories:
- SaaS, Point of Sale, Software
- Website:
- http://www.365retailmarkets.com
Company DetailsUpdate
365 Retail Markets is a global leader in item-level MicroMarket technology. We offer a best-in-class platform for vending, foodservice, and hospitality markets with superior technology and ultimate flexibility in customization and branding.
A 365 SmartShop is a 24/7 unmanned self-checkout MicroMarket that can offer fresh food and beverage alternatives to vending in your workplace.
365 offers a solution to increase sales, customer service, and employee satisfaction, all while decreasing operating costs.
What makes us a global MicroMarket leader? • exceptional service with superior response time • top notch technology, manufactured in the USA with top ATM quality parts • the best and most comprehensive online management software • proprietary hardware and software with the most technology options • preferred MicroMarket technology of the world's largest vending companies • PCI Compliant, for secure credit card processing • 365 Retail Markets allows customer to fully self-brand their markets
Company History:
•2008: Initial Business Plan and market testing for an RFID based self-checkout system begins.
•2009: Business operations commenced
•2010: 365 Retail complements its industry first RFID system with a barcode only and full Cash-Coin kiosk.
•2011: 365 Secures significant funding, and begins large scale roll out to the industry's largest vending operator. Also, secures new office space to accommodate growth.
•2012: 365's newly launched GEN II self checkout kiosk wins the NAMA innovation award; moves again to accommodate ever growing staff base. Maintains 99% uptime for both kiosks and software.
•2013: 365 recognized as a Michigan Fast 50 company based on success and revenue growth. Launches the new 365 Micro kiosk as a companion to existing portfolio along with multiple payroll deduct and stored value account options. Became the first provider to achieve full PA-DSS certification. 365 moves again to a permanent office and manufacturing facility. Maintains 99.99% uptime for both kiosks and software.
•2014: 365 kicks off the year as Michigan Companies to Watch finalist; over a dozen feature upgrades to both its kiosk and web management software; adds QuickCharge capability, multilingual, SMS receipts and more. Maintains 99.99% uptime for both kiosks and software.
Current Team (2)Update
Funding Rounds (1) - $0.00Update
undisclosed amount / Series A
Feb 11, 2014Investors:
Investments (1)Update
Airvend is an interactive wireless touchscreen device that provides real-time data and alert...
$1.2M / Seed with 1 other investorJan 2, 2014 - Seed Round Details
Products (5)Update
SmartVend 5
SmartVend 5 was added to CrunchBase in 2013
SmartVend 7
SmartVend 7 was added to CrunchBase in 2013
SmartHUB Cash-Coin
SmartHUB Cash-Coin was added to CrunchBase in 2013
SmartHUB Gen II
SmartHUB Gen II was added to CrunchBase in 2013
SmartHUB Micro
SmartHUB Micro was added to CrunchBase in 2013
Investors (1)Update
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365 Retail Markets HQ
1743 Maplelawn
Troy, MI 48084
News (2)Update
YouTube - Training Videosyoutube.com
365 Retail Markets raises 0 in venture roundfinsmes.com


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Brandied Strawberry Jam
This easy jam doesn't involve canning. It will keep in the fridge for about two weeks.
Yield: 1 1/2 cups (serving size: 1 tablespoon)
More From Cooking Light
Nutritional Information
Amount per serving
- Calories: 26
- Calories from fat: 3%
- Fat: 0.1g
- Saturated fat: 0.0g
- Monounsaturated fat: 0.0g
- Polyunsaturated fat: 0.1g
- Protein: 0.2g
- Carbohydrate: 6g
- Fiber: 0.6g
- Cholesterol: 0.0mg
- Iron: 0.1mg
- Sodium: 0.0mg
- Calcium: 4mg
- 4 cups quartered strawberries
- 1/2 cup sugar
- 1/4 cup brandy, divided
- 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
- Combine strawberries, sugar, and 3 tablespoons brandy in a heavy Dutch oven; bring to a boil. Reduce heat; simmer until reduced to 1 1/2 cups (about 45 minutes), stirring occasionally. Remove from heat; stir in 1 tablespoon brandy and vanilla. Spoon into a bowl; cool to room temperature. Cover and chill.
My Notes
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Brandied Strawberry Jam Recipe at a Glance
- COURSE: Sauces/Condiments
- CONVENIENCE: Entertaining, Gifts, Make-Ahead
- CUISINE: American, New American
- MAIN INGREDIENT: Fruits
- DIETARY CONSIDERATION: Low Calorie, Low Cholesterol, Low Fat, Low Sodium, Low Saturated Fat
- PUBLICATION: Cooking Light
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BreakPoint Blog
Re: Bail for Bale
It WAS interesting that art imitated life at the very moment "The Dark Knight" debuted in London, wasn't it? Travis is right. This is a GREAT film, everything you look for: good writing, excellent actors, and a storyline that takes the moviegoer seriously. The ethical dilemmas put forward by the Joker were exceptional, and Heath Ledger may indeed deserve the posthumous Best Actor award. One hopes that his fate is not tied to the content of the character he had to play, for he did his job most convincingly. I think his character shows a forgotten lesson about the craziness of evil, namely that someone can be both miserable AND YET decide to keep on having a weird kind of destructive "fun" at others' expense. The devil finds ways to make the perverse entertaining, and therein lies the real temptation in it. Once someone is able to justify why they do such things, the descent is rapid.


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I became actively involved in the creationist anti-science debate over 15 years ago while the Curator of Anthropology, and Director of Education for the Orange County Museum of Natural History. ******** Disclaimer: Comments are the responsiblity of their author(s). Their opinions, linked materials and comments are not necessarily those of Gary S. Hurd. I reserve the right to delete any material for any reason.
Friday, July 27, 2012
Creationist physicist Nathan Aviezer
Perakh devoted a page or two to the "paradox of the origin of life" as proposed by Aviezer. Specifically, he quoted Aviezer "...the(sic) life could not develop from inanimate matter because inanimate matter contains neither proteins nor nucleic acids." In his reply to Perakh, Aviezer reiterates this "paradox" writing, "My second example concerns the chicken-and-egg paradox relating to the origin of life. I explained (p. 68, In the Beginning) that all living cells contain both nucleic acids and proteins and that life is quite impossible without both. The paradox lies in the fact that proteins are produced only by nucleic acids and that nucleic acids can exist only in the presence of proteins. Since neither molecule can exist without the other, there is a paradox: how did nucleic acids and proteins come into existence? This paradox is often compared to the famous "chicken-and-egg paradox." Since chicken eggs come only from chickens and chickens come only from chicken eggs, how did chickens and chicken eggs come into existence?"
Aviezer insisted his superficial treatment of the origin of life was drawn from "leading scientists" (emphasis in the original). His cited experts were David G. Smith, editor-in-chief of The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Earth Sciences (1981), Professor Frank Shu of the University of California, and Professor Jean Audouze, General Editor of "The Cambridge Atlas of Astronomy" (1982). Aviezer then hides behind these "authorities" accusing Perakh of "calling "absurd" the discussion of respected men of science." This is a fraud that should be addressed prior to exploding Aviezer's scientific claims about the origin of life.
I have found over the years that creationists discussing OOL have no idea at all of the available literature. Aviezer is no exception. His citation of the 30 year old work edited by David G. Smith is unimpressive. Further, a literature search shows no original work by DG Smith on the topic. I found the selection of Aviezer's remaining experts rather amusing as like Aviezer and Perakh, they are physicists. Physicists are the smartest of all scientists, and are experts at all things. Just ask Aviezer. (Surgeons have a similarly high opinion of themselves). Frank Shu, a theoretical physicist at Cal Berkeley has a distinguished career spanning over 40 years. But looking at his major interests, such as "SELF-SIMILAR COLLAPSE OF ISOTHERMAL SPHERES AND STAR FORMATION" (1977), or "Planetesimal Formation by Gravitational Instability" (2002), I find nothing on the origin of life. He also conducted research on the formation of chondrites, which in a very abstract way could have relevance to OOL. His 30 year old undergraduate book, "The Physical Universe: An Introduction to Astronomy" (1982) did have a short chapter on origin of life research. And as this was the work cited by Aviezer, we can understand his lack of familiarity with OOL research.
Jean Audouze specialized in stellar nucleosynthesis, the origin of elements heavier than lithium. See for example his, "The First Generation of Stars: First Steps toward Chemical Evolution of Galaxies" 1995. This is at least of some interest to OOL as we need heavy elements to exist as a precursor to any life form. But, it has nothing relevant to any modern study of OOL, or biological evolution.
So, Alviezer lacking any knowledge about origin of life research makes some assertions that insurmountable problems "prove" the existence of the supernatural, and the literal interpretations of various (but not all) biblical texts. A brief review of some recent research debunking Aviezer's claims follows.
The 1970s discovery of ribozymes, small RNAs that are catalytic, a nucleic acid enzyme, resulted in the "RNA world" hypothesis. This proposed that prebiotic RNAs were both metabolic, and a template of molecular memory. Leslie Orgel in 2004 was doubtful about any straight forward solutions, in spite of noting, "The demonstration that ribosomal peptide synthesis is a ribozyme-catalyzed reaction makes it almost certain that there was once an RNA World." For an early demonstration of spontaneous hypercycles directly related to OOL, see Lee, et al (1997). An exciting RNA example published in 2009 was "Self-sustained replication of an RNA enzyme" (Lincoln et al).
Powner et al (2009) have demonstrated that simple chemical stock when reacted under realistic prebiotic conditions will produce ample activated ribonucleotides. They allowed readily available minerals to react with the organics, in this case the key feature was inorganic phosphorus added to the reaction. The key feature of Powner et al is that they used a more prebiotically natural mixture of organic and inorganic chemistry. This eliminates Aviezer's insistence that only living systems can produce nucleotides. (Actually, his "vitalism" idea was dispensed with by Wöhler in 1828).
Creationists also insist that RNAs must be "highly complex." This "complexity" notion is the core concept of the Intelligent Design creationist argument, and is operationalized as having an exact sequence that cannot have happened randomly. Just two papers are adequate to dismiss this argument; "Isolation of new ribozymes from a large pool of random sequences" and "Structurally complex and highly active RNA ligases derived from random RNA sequences." These papers also expose the foolishness of creationist's calculations of "probabilities" for the origin of life such as used by Aviezer, and Intelligent Design creationists William Dembski, and Stephen Meyer. We are told by creationists that RNAs must be large to be active. This was known to be false over 13 years ago with the publication of, "A small catalytic RNA motif with Diels-Alderase activity." It was further refuted two years ago by, "Multiple translational products from a five-nucleotide ribozyme." We were told by creationists that many nucleotides, in complex patterns were necessary for the origin of life. This was debunked a decade ago by, "A ribozyme composed of only two different nucleotides." However, we can have spontaneous complexity too, as shown by Derr et al (2012).
Ribozymes, can be combined with equally natural lipid vesicles such as those studied by David Deamer of the University of California since the mid 1980s. He found meteoric amphipilic compounds which spontaneously form vesicles similar to phospholipid membranes. This research was reviewed in Deamer et al (2002), and Deamer (2011). Ribozymes, combined with equally natural lipid vesicles are extremely close to life, if in fact not "living" in the modern sense of complex cells. They would be "living" in the sense of a sustainable molecular system capable of Darwinian evolution. There are two major events necessary for the early evolution of modern cells; the shift to DNA as the principle cellular "memory," and the transition to amino acid enzymes rather than ribozymes. This goes well beyond the scope of this comment, but readers might be interested in Trifonov 2004, and Woese 2002.
For additional information on OOL research, see my "Short Outline of the Origin of Life.
Bartel, DP, JW Szostak,
1993 "Isolation of new ribozymes from a large pool of random sequences" Science 10 September 1993: Vol. 261 no. 5127 pp. 1411-1418
DOI: 10.1126/science.7690155
Burckhard Seelig and Andres Jgschke
1999 "A small catalytic RNA motif with Diels-Alderase activity" Chemistry & Biology Vol 6 No 3
Deamer, David W., JASON P. DWORKIN, SCOTT A. SANDFORD, MAX P. BERNSTEIN, and LOUIS J. ALLAMANDOLA
2002 "The First Cell Membrane" ASTROBIOLOGY Volume 2, Number 4, 371-381
Derr, Julien, Michael L. Manapat, Sudha Rajamani, Kevin Leu, Ramon Xulvi-Brunet, Isaac Joseph, Martin A. Nowak, Irene A. Chen
2012 "Prebiotically plausible mechanisms increase compositional diversity of nucleic acid sequences" Nucl. Acids Res. (2012) doi: 10.1093/nar/gks065
Ekland, EH, JW Szostak, and DP Bartel
1995 "Structurally complex and highly active RNA ligases derived from random RNA sequences" Science 21 July 1995: Vol. 269. no. 5222, pp. 364 - 370
Lee DH, Severin K, Yokobayashi Y, and Ghadiri MR,
1997 "Emergence of symbiosis in peptide self-replication through a hypercyclic network." Nature, 390: 591-4
Lincoln et al.
2009 Self-Sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme. Science, Jan 8, 2009 Vol. 323 no. 5918 pp 1229-1232; DOI: 10.1126/science.1167856
Orgel LE.
2004 "Prebiotic chemistry and the origin of the RNA world" Crit Rev Biochem Mol Biol. Mar-Apr; 39(2):99-123. DOI: 10.1080/10409230490460765
Powner, Matthew W., Be´atrice Gerland & John D. Sutherland
2009 "Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions" Nature Vol; 459, 239-242 doi:10.1038/nature08013
102. Reader, J. S. and G. F. Joyce
2002 "A ribozyme composed of only two different nucleotides." Nature vol 420, pp 841-844.
Trifonov, Edward N.
2004 "The Triplet Code From First Principles" Journal of Biomolecular Structure &
Dynamics, ISSN 0739-1102 Volume 22, Issue Number 1, (2004)
Turk, Rebecca M., Natayliya V. Chumachenko, Michael Yarus
2010 "Multiple translational products from a five-nucleotide ribozyme" PNAS vol. 107 no. 10 4585-4589
Woese, Carl
2002 "On the evolution of Cells" PNAS Vol. 99 13:8742-8747, June 25
Wöhler, F.
Annalen der Physik und Chemie, 88, Leipzig
2 comments:
- Torbjörn Larsson, OM said...
On the RNA world I would add, as I noted over on The Panda's Thumb, that modern genome/protein methods now reach down through the DNA UCA before domain diversification all the way to the RNA/protein world by way of protein fold families.
It turns out that the RNA/protein world is ~ 20 % of a fold clock proxy, the DNA UCA another ~ 20 %, and first after comes diversification into domains. ["The evolution and functional repertoire of translation proteins following the origin of life", Goldman et al, Bio Dir 2010; and similar works.] In other words, ~ 50 % of cell history (by proxy) happened before the ancestors of modern cells evolved.
To contribute more references here, the existence of a DNA UCA is itself tested by phylometabolic methods.
On a trophic level, a robust and doubled autotrophic CO2 metabolism before diversification tests a common root. The robustness further tests that early cell regulation of metabolism and growth, the latter which would have acted as a parasitic drain on the autocatalytic cores of carbon metabolism, was less evolved as would be expected out of an RNA world and/or chemical evolution. ["The Emergence and Early Evolution of Biological Carbon-Fixation, Braakman et al, PLoS Comp Bio 2012.]
Similarly a non-stereosymmetric lipid membrane biosynthesis before diversification tests a common root. ["Ancestral lipid biosynthesis and early membrane evolution", Peretó et al, TRENDS in Bio Sci 2004.]
And on the ribozymes I would add that we now know that the chemical selection promotes catalysts. Which implies that pre- to protobiotic pathways could within reach for testability! Yes, it really seems so, as the following toy model shows:
DNA-protein cell machinery, RNA or ATP biosynthesis before the first membranes, the first enzymes are examples of (not fully exclusive) common evolutionary chicken-and-egg problems. Luckily such problems conveniently bottleneck possible pathways to a smaller set.
Bottom up, chemical network enzymes are a natural outcome in newer scenarios. High-temperature reactions seems to be much faster than orthodox theory believed from scant data. This temperature dependence gives a self-selection for enthalpic pre-proteinous enzymes. ["Impact of temperature on the time required for the establishment of primordial biochemistry, and for the evolution of enzymes", Stockbridge et al, PNAS, 2010.]
Now looking top down, we see that pathways meet. The first modern metabolic networks originated with purine metabolism, and specifically with the gene family of the P-loop-containing ATP hydrolase fold. ["The origin of modern metabolic networks inferred from phylogenomic analysis of protein architecture", Caetano-Anollés et al. PNAS, 2007; "Rapid evolutionary innovation during an Archaean genetic expansion", David et al, Nature, 2010.]
That is, ATP sits at the intersection between a cooling and/or hydrothermal vent active Earth premetabolism and nucleotide protometabolism. (Which compound seems to later have been exaptated by modern proteinous metabolic genes as coenzyme/energy currency.) Minimum change of traits picks ATP use before RNA evolution
Note that this is an (informal) test of a phylogenetic pathway. Abiogenesis is actually slightly testable today as far as I can see.
To solve the new chicken-and-egg problem between RNA and coenzymes in metabolism, it turns out ATP, CoA et cetera coenzyme's synthesis can be easily RNA-catalyzed by polyphosphate activation. ["RNA-Catalyzed CoA, NAD and FAD Synthesis from Phosphopantetheine, NMN, and FMN", Huang et al, Biochem 2000.] Finally there is also recent implications of selection of RNA in its enhanced enzymatic capability in the presence of iron under anoxic conditions, as on the primeval Earth.
- July 30, 2012 at 1:35:00 PM PDT
- Gary S. Hurd said...
Thanks for your remark. I have the next few days filled, but I'll try to read your citations as soon as I ca. It is currently a very active time in Origin Of Life research.
- July 30, 2012 at 2:27:00 PM PDT


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Ms. Erdelyi and her Classroom
Cell Project Ideas
This projects
lets the student make an edible, 3-D model of an animal cell. The various organelles of the cell are represented by fruits
and candies. When you've finished making your cell and writing about it, you can eat it!
Make the
light-colored Jello or gelatin, but make it with a bit less water than the instructions call for (this will make the gelatin
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Re-seal the plastic bag and refrigerate the gelatin until it is fully set.
When the gelatin is set, you can examine your 3-D gelatin cell but do not eat
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You are in... Forums > Discuss This > MotoGP > Sepang MotoGP: Jorge Lorenzo relieved with 'lucky' second
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Jorge Lorenzo admitted he got out of jail after he almost threw away 20 precious points in a rain-lashed Sepang MotoGP race.
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Oct 12
Posts: 31
Calfan says:
I knew youd both say that.I think you may as well let me write your posts for you,I know what your all going to say.So much easier.
Dec 11
Posts: 92
jackinthebox says:
revbenny....cornbowl.....calfan.....cal35gp.....bcb.....and the others....u not get bored talkin to yourself?
Posts: 294
BlackCountryBullock says:
... it would appear that you've got nothing to say, other than 'Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa'.
Now that's fine if it's the best that you can muster - but to hear it every single day is tedious for all.
In deference to the other people who have to suffer your monotonous posting, I've decided to be magnanimous and have added you as a 'friend' - allowing you to bore and abuse me to your hearts content (in private).
Now you have no excuse.
[This Reply has been modified by the Author]
Posts: 52
CAL35GP1 says:
I'm not myself, I'm someone else, though I am susceptible to Calfan's brain control.
Exactly, this is why it could be such an enthralling season. Hard not to put him in the top 7 but there are so many talented contenders. Much as I like Bautista I think Bradl will have the edge when it comes to consistency.
If Pedro can pull it off he will of course join Rossi as a legend in winning the title in all 3 classes. This year must have given him massive confidence. Loro's also due a bit of bad luck, Rossi's going to be taunting him something rotten and Dovi will have matching team-mate Voodoo dolls of Loro and Rossi now that he has done his job on Spies for having the Factory M1 he wanted.
I dont believe it,you lot talking racing for a change instead of mudslinging. You might become real bikers one day.
Please, when will you ban these posters and block their IP addresses for talking about bikes, motogp and relevant subject matter ??
May 12
Posts: 987
cornbowl says:
you dipshit, don't include me in with the Rev/Benny/Twpsyn/Caltwat etc., accounts, that sheepshagger was off on his earlier post, to Uni to write on his faeces, that's because he's full of shite, you need to buy him another mirror with a bell on it, to keep him off here.
That knob head, thinks it's done and dusted for J.Lo, but P.I. is liable to be wet, and they aint going to stop that one for him, whatever position he's running in, so it aint over 'till it's over.
"you need to buy him another mirror with a bell on it, to keep him off here"
Nice one - one of your better efforts my little sweetie ...... hahaha.
Jan 08
Posts: 64
luke 7R says:
I can't believe they stopped the race because the guy in SECOND was waving his hands about! One more lap and he'd of been 3rd or on the floor the second option would be better!
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Except for the whole "one in-game action per button press" rule that has been stated many times. This pretty clearly violates that, regardless of how much babysitting it requires to be successful. Technically a bot that makes you automatically /silly every 15 seconds for 1 minute can get you banned even though it doesn't do anything unfair.


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The Executive Order That Redefines Data Collection 110
Posted by Soulskill
from the will-liberty-and-justice-for-all* dept.
from the will-liberty-and-justice-for-all* dept.
sandbagger writes: " ...it is often the case that one can be led astray by relying on the generic or commonly understood definition of a particular word." That quote apparently applies to words offering constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure. TechDirt looks at the redefinition of the term "collection" as redefined by Executive Order 12333 to allow basically every information dragnet, provided no-one looks at it. "Collection" is now defined as "collection plus action." According to this document, it still isn't collected, even if it has been gathered, packaged and sent to a "supervisory authority." No collection happens until examination. It's Schrodinger's data, neither collected nor uncollected until the "box" has been opened. This leads to the question of aging off collected data/communications: if certain (non) collections haven't been examined at the end of the 5-year storage limit, are they allowed to be retained simply because they haven't officially been collected yet? Does the timer start when the "box" is opened or when the "box" is filled?


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Less than a week after Carlos Zambrano joined our list of weird injuries by hurting his neck watching late-night TV, he almost found himself back on it due to Zambrano-like antics. Unlike all American and most National League pitchers, Zambrano takes hitting very seriously. The Cubs would probably prefer that he focus on hurling the ball and not get himself worked up over smashing it, but that just isn't in Big Z's nature. Zambrano is hitting .241 this season and has 22 homers in his 10 year career as a full-time MLB player — nothing to turn your nose up at from a guy who hits 9th in the lineup once every five games.
Because of his success at the plate, Zambrano expects a lot from himself. That's probably why he was so angry (despite having learned to control his anger issues) when Astros rookie Jordan Lyles struck him out in the fifth inning on Tuesday night. Check out the video of Carlos Zambrano breaking a bat over his knee, courtesy of YouTube user houbaseballfreak:


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Orange-Glazed Salmon
More From Oxmoor House
Nutritional Information
Amount per serving
- Calories: 216
- Calories from fat: 0.0%
- Fat: 6.5g
- Saturated fat: 1g
- Monounsaturated fat: 0.0g
- Polyunsaturated fat: 0.0g
- Protein: 34.8g
- Carbohydrate: 2.1g
- Fiber: 0.1g
- Cholesterol: 88mg
- Iron: 1.3mg
- Sodium: 713mg
- Calcium: 24mg
- 4 (6-ounce) salmon fillets (1 inch thick)
- 1/4 teaspoon salt
- 1/4 teaspoon pepper
- Cooking spray
- 3 tablespoons low-sodium soy sauce
- 3 tablespoons orange juice
- 1/2 teaspoon dark sesame oil
- 1. Sprinkle fish with salt and pepper. Coat a large nonstick skillet with cooking spray; place over high heat until hot. Add fish, and cook, uncovered, 3 minutes on each side. Cover and cook 3 minutes or until fish flakes easily when tested with a fork. Remove from pan; set aside, and keep warm.
- 2. Add soy sauce and orange juice to pan; cook over high heat 1 minute, stirring to deglaze pan. Add oil, and stir well. Pour sauce over fish; serve immediately.
- carbo rating: 2
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Orange-Glazed Salmon Recipe at a Glance
- COURSE: Main Dishes
- MAIN INGREDIENT: Fish
- DIETARY CONSIDERATION: Diabetic, Low Calorie, Low Saturated Fat, Gluten-Free
- PUBLICATION: Oxmoor House
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This odd bit of bragging aired during recent WWE programming, part of the wrestling company's practice of flashing statistics about how great it is after commercial breaks. Maybe they're talking about series performance? Because beating NBA Live in a year without NBA Live ain't impressive.
And Resident Evil Was Dealt Another Blow...
Pending approval Stephen Totilo


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Teacher quality
Principal leadership
Parent involvement
Prepare to be disillusioned. Project Learn School does not have a principal. It has an administrative committee that makes decisions about what issues to bring before the parent community for them to vote on. If this sounds cumbersome, time consuming and stressful, that is because it is! I chose PLS because I hoped for involvement in my children's school. However, this place just spins in circles with no leadership and no ability to make important decisions. Read your contract carefully. It is important to note that if the school makes a mistake on its budget (prepared by a parent) and runs out of money mid-year, they have the right to bill an extra tuition payment to each family to make up for the shortfall. They have done this in many recent years so be prepared to pay more than you think. The school environment is warm and friendly but many families have left in recent years due to concerns about academic quality. I agree with the child centered philosophy of the school, however, children still need academic preparation (i.e. cover the appropriate coursework) in order to be prepared to participate with their peers from other schools in high school.
This is a wonderful school, with dedicated, creative teachers and a strong curriculum. There are so many wonderful "extras" that compliment the educational program. Kids are encouraged to work independently, and learn for the sake of learning. I can't imagine sending my kids to any other school.
The art program at Project Learn is excellent. However, sadly, this is where the excellence ends. Although they advertise that the teachers are certified, the majority are not. Also, they brand themselves as a "humanistic" school. At one point, I believe they may have been, however this does not seem to be the case currently. Because of their Humanistic message however, they attract many children who are different learners. They involve the families, take their money, but fail to provide the proper education for these children. They are doing a great disservice to many children and their families, but without their revenue, the whole school would financially fail. As far as the cooperative aspect of this school, there is nothing cooperative about it. A few families dominate, resulting in the minority choosing the school's direction. This school lacks follow through, needed leadership, or resources to teach the majority of it's students. If you are to visit, please note, the physical appearance of this school greatly reflects the school itself, i.e. disorganized. I feel very sorry for the few decent teachers and families that remain. Buyer beware!
PL is the best out there! My daughter attended PL and it was a wonderful part of her educational journal. We loved this school so much that we still support the work that they do almost ten years later. BRAVO PL!!!
This is a wonderful school. I've watched my shy girl blossom into a confident and happy child who loves school, loves reading, and has made really strong friendships. The school provides the right environment for her to feel secure in her own abilities where she can "just be herself." I highly recommend this school to any parent who is looking for small classroom sizes (12 to 16 kids per class!), individual attention, great art, high standards, and a love of learning and teaching!
We have been part of the Project Learn (PL) community since 1997. I love the co-oping and governance structures - parents can get involved in their child's education in a deep and meaningful way, both by using their individual skills, and as part of the Town Meeting which makes all major decisions for the school. Both of our kids looked forward to going to school every day while at PL. Our oldest went to Central for high school, loved it, and graduated in the top 10, then got a scholarship to the Honors College at U. of Md. The staff and community at PL are wonderful, and the kids learn skills about taking responsibility for their own learning and looking out for themselves using social skills and creative problem solving.
Project Learn School is the best elementary independent school in the Philadelphia area because it teaches to the student not the test.
Children are whole people there. They develop their minds and their social selves there seamlessly. They graduate whole people, not just test scores.
Project Learn School makes learning a truly joyful endeavor. The teachers here really love the kids and love teaching. They work very hard to make learning a hands-on experience whenever possible. Kids get choices and in that way become responsible for their own education. Both of my kids love this school and are thriving. I love the community-- working together with other parents and teachers to make PLS a wonderful place for all of our kids.
We are so happy to have our daughter at Project Learn School. After searching far and wide for exactly the right environment - open, child-centered, non-competitive - when we walked into PLS we knew that this was it. PLS teaches kids to think and explore and our daughter loves to learn. She wants to come to school on the weekend! We have no doubt that she, like the majority of PLS grads, will go on to the high school and college of her choice and blossom into the thoughtful, compassionate leader she is meant to become.
Project Learn cannot seem to follow through. There are some good ideas and some very nice people but the quality and rigor of the actual curriculum is only mediocre. It is important for children to be in an environment that is friendly but with such a limited group of children and constant turnover of teachers, it's often difficult for everyone to have a place. The school loses many children each year because of this but does not want to accept responsibility. In addition, when students go on to high school, many of them struggle and find big gaps in what they are supposed to know. Project Learn is a lively place but lively does not make a great education.
Project Learn School, (the ONLY cooperative school in Philadelphia), is one of this city's hidden treasures! Our daughter has been at PLS for two years and we could not be happier with her education and personal growth. Learning cooperatively, and often in mixed age groups, is simply a gift to all of the students. She feels safe with all of the teachers there and in fact, wrote in her journal last year (in Kindergarten), that 'all the teachers love me here.' In what other school would an 8th grader befriend a kindergartner? Our daughter cried at the 8th grade graduation because she was losing one of her 'best friends.' We expect to be a part of this school community for many years to come!
My family has been a part of the Project Learn school community for over 9 years. It has been a great place for both my kids - each very different in learning styles and strengths. Yes it is a bit of a challenge to figure out how to work cooperatively with a range of parents, teachers and administrators - but it is a gift for my children to have the opportunity to see that making a learning community is an ongoing effort that is important to a diverse group of staff and parents. The teaching staff is on average excellent - though it takes a few years for new teachers to really understand the PL way. The small Jr. High is a very nice way for teens to have an extended family experience with their peers. Spend a morning visiting - you'll see!
Project Learn has missed the mark. It has some fabulous teachers and some with very little training or experience. Because enrollment has seriously declined in the past few years, my daughter has fewere and fewer friends in her group. The people are nice but the expectations for academics are low. There is also a high turnover of teachers.
This has been a fabulous school for my son. He knows everyone in the building and really feels like he's part of something special. He's proud of his school and is happy to go there every day. The teachers are very invested in their students -- not just their learning but also their social and emotional development, which is so important. As a family, we couldn't be happier with Project Learn.
One of the best aspects of PL School is the student diversity. Children from all backgrounds attend and get along well together. The teachers at the school are also really stellar and committed to each child. Showing this level of dedication to each child is made easier with the small teacher-student ratio. Overall, I've been really pleased with the school, teachers, children and parents.
Our family loves this school. It provides us with a wonderful, involved and conscientious community. My children have thrived because of the kind, nurturing and stimulating environment that the teachers, parents and other students provide. As a parent, I feel very fortunate to have found this school for every school pales in comparison.
Project Learn is the best place on earth. It is the only place I know where children come and learn and thirve and are treated with respect and care. It is a nurtuting community that provides an outstanding academic program while building confidence and independence. My son is in second grade and my daughter will start next year. I am so thankful that we have found such an amazing place for them to be educated.
Project Learn is the perfect school for my offbeat and introverted son, and a very good school for my gregarious daughter. My son encountered bullying at another private school and was failing. He's now reading above grade level and is doing well in all his subjects and is actively engaged in the process of learning. The excellent, dedicated teachers and warm, nurturing community of students, parents, and staff make school a place where he's not afraid to be himself. Because of the mingling of grade levels for certain group activities, my kindergarten-aged daughter has friends all over the school, including her favorite junior high kids. The older kids tend to mentor the younger ones, rather than lord it over them. The art program is truly exceptional, and literacy, history, math and science are strong. Weaknesses are music and gym, and the lack of a foreign language for the junior high students.
After an exhaustive search of area public and private schools, our family chose Project Learn for several reasons: It is diverse economically, racially, and culturally; progressive in its thematic and mixed age teaching; and because I felt my child's creativity and individuality would be honored and supported there. My child feels safe at Project Learn - she knows who the other teachers and children are, she feels comfortable in different rooms, and if there is a problem, it can be dealt with quickly and personally because of the size and values of the community. There are general and specific ways each member of the PL community is valued - mainly the participatory nature of Town Meetings, co-oping, and even student meetings to voice appreciations and discuss issues important to them. PL is a living, breathing democracy. Yes, the sometimes inefficient aspects of democracy, but most importantly the values and opportunities.
Community ratings and reviews do not represent the views of GreatSchools nor does GreatSchools check their accuracy or verify the reviewers' identities. Use your discretion when evaluating these reviews.
The Community Rating is the school's average rating from its community members (e.g., parents, students, and school staff). The highest possible rating is five stars; the lowest is one star.
6525 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19119
Phone: (215) 438-3623
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text:
Quinoa and Turkey Stuffed Peppers
Well I know I promised an easy fish recipe and also my pudding pie recipe, but an unexpected snow day also found me in the kitchen concocting some new dishes including these quinoa and turkey stuffed peppers. I know, they sound almost healthy! Well, at least healthful. Did you know that quinoa is actually really high in protein? Yup, so you can eat these without guilt. Then go have some chocolate cake. Enjoy.
Quinoa and Turkey Stuffed Peppers
- 3 red bell peppers
- 1 lb ground turkey meat
- ¾ cup cooked quinoa
- 2 eggs
- 1 small onion, diced
- 3 cloves of garlic, minced
- 1 ½ tsp oregano
- 1 tsp paprika
- ½ tsp cayenne pepper
- 1 ½ tsp salt
- 1 tsp ground pepper
- Olive oil
Preheat oven to 375 degrees.
Cut the tops off of peppers, and core and seed the peppers. Set aside the tops of peppers. Steam peppers for 3-5 minutes over simmering water. While peppers steam, finely chop the tops of the peppers.
Heat olive oil in a skillet, and sauté onion with remaining red pepper until soft. Add garlic and spices. Gently crumble turkey into skillet and sauté until cooked through.
In a large bowl, mix together the cooked quinoa, turkey and vegetable mixture plus the two eggs. When combined thoroughly, spoon into the peppers.
Cook for 20 minutes. Sprinkle with fresh parsley before serving.


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"Every accent, every emphasis, every modulation of voice, was so perfectly well turned and well placed, that, without being interested in the subject, one could not help being pleased with the discourse; a pleasure of much the same kind with that received from an excellent piece of music. This is an advantage itinerant preachers have over those who are stationary, as the latter can not well improve their delivery of a sermon by so many rehearsals."
- Benjamin Franklin


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GreatSchools Rating
Teacher quality
Principal leadership
Parent involvement
We moved from the UK and this was my daughters first experience of school in the USA. I must say this school has exceeded my expectations. This is her second year there and is really enjoying it. The middle and high school linked to the school are very good too. I would have rated the school a five if it had extra curricular activities, apart from variety shows and concerts.
We moved here from out of state and our daughter is in First Grade. Her teacher was so welcoming! We have been very impressed with the school so far. They have just been awarded that Governor's Gold Award for student achievement which is fabulous. However, beyond that they are a caring school and our daughter is flourishing in this environment. We are so thrilled that we chose this school to send her to! All the times that I have been at the school I have seen the principal walking in the hallways and really interacting with the students. The school is such a positive, happy place!
We love this school, teachers and all the staff. They make it very easy to be involved and it is such a positive learning environment.
Great school my son loves his teacher but he always complains about the gym and there are no extra- curricular activities.
Great school. Needs more extra- curricular activities.
I believe that this school has an proven educational record with instructors that motivate children.
Freeman's Mil is a great school. I feel as if my children are getting a private school education for free.
It sounds like the previous parent has had a bad experience, however Freemans Mill is by far the best elementary school in gwinnett county. My daughter has had a substitute teaacher once this year and could not stop raving about the teacher. I believe that FMES would hold the same high standard for substitutes as it does for the rest of its staff. I do not agree that FMES would allow frequent absenteeism from a teacher. Remember that FMES is a Georgia Distinguished School of Excellence and tardiness from teachers would not have got it that title.There is bound to be a teacher in every school that a parent has a problem with. I hope you can resolve your differences. There must be some good in the teacher/teachers in question for FMES to have hired them. Freemans Mill is still by far the best.
I agree that the leadership is excellent. however there have been hidden politics here with the hiring of certain teachers. Thus there is one or two reachers hired that should not be here.Be prepared to have an outstanding teacher one year and then a teacher the next that lacks communication skills and is not very organised. Parents should really stand up and let all know their experience with teachers that are not up to par as such teachers will ultimately weigh bad on a great school.
Yes the leadership is excellent. The quality of teachers and teacher commitment is spotty. Some are qualified and experienced one or two however are not. Be prepared for many substitute teacher days from certain teachers. My experience is that there are several teachers who are away frequently as a result of which children are taught by substitutes with major breaks in continuity.
Freeman's Mill is an outstanding school. Everyone in the front office, the teachers, the cafeteria workers. They are all very nice and helpful. Mrs. Sproles is the best 1st grade teacher ever. She is teaching the younget of my 5 children and is one of the best I have seen.
I think Freeman's Mill Elementary is an outstanding school. From the front office to the Principal and the entire staff, they are all welcoming and inviting. Mrs. Marian Hicks, the Principal, has done a fantastic job! She is warm and approachable, with many years of educational experience who sincerely loves the children. She appreciates her staff and repeatedly lets them know how important they are. Because of this the students can feel this and test scores have never been higher!!! Kudos to Mrs. Marian Hicks and extraordinary outstanding staff at Freeman's Mill Elementary School!
This school has excellent leadership this year. Our PTA involvement has increased. There are many other exceptional teachers at FMES that we applaud.
My daughter has been going to this school for the past 5 yrs and loves it. I appreciate the way Dr Hodges ancourages parent involvement. I eat lunch with my child every week and help in her class often, and always feel very welcome. The PTA is excellent. The school has alot of extracurricular activities, which we have really enjoy. And there are alot of PTA events throughout the year which my child really looks forward to. I whith out a doubt recommend this school.
I am thrilled with the excellent way this school is run. They are truely interested in the education of the children. Dr. Hodges does an outstanding job. Mrs. Reece (1st grade) is a great teacher.
Teachers show genuine concern for the students and the faculty does an excellent job communicating with parents.
Great Teachers and a great school. Very organized and well run. The area, in general, has good schools and Freemans Mill stands out. The teachers seem to have genuine concern for their students welfare and education.
Community ratings and reviews do not represent the views of GreatSchools nor does GreatSchools check their accuracy or verify the reviewers' identities. Use your discretion when evaluating these reviews.
The Community Rating is the school's average rating from its community members (e.g., parents, students, and school staff). The highest possible rating is five stars; the lowest is one star.
2303 Old Peachtree Rd
Lawrenceville, GA 30043
Phone: (678) 377-8955
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President Obama's re-election team, in a quest to inoculate the president from his contentious health care law, is already making the case to voters that the president merely copied his reforms from the man who's running against him this fall, presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney.
And conservatives acknowledge that with Romney as their nominee, the GOP will have a much harder time making what many thought would be their central argument against the president: That his signature legislative accomplishment was proof that Obama would use a second term to greatly expand the scope and power of the federal government.
"It kind of takes health care off the table, doesn't it?" lamented one GOP strategist. "I'm just hoping that conservative anger over a litany of Obama mishaps will be enough to fuel Romney's bid. I guess Republicans don't have any other choice."
Team Obama would be thrilled if it can successfully neutralize the issue amid all-time high public disapproval of the president's health care law. To that end, Obama's supporters last week launched a video to remind voters that it's been six years since Romney instituted similar reforms -- including a requirement that residents buy health insurance -- when he was governor of Massachusetts and that Romney himself once called his reforms a "model for the nation."
Obama was aided in his effort to blunt health care reform as an issue during the Republican presidential primary when former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum, who has since left the race, claimed Romney's support for similar health care reforms made him "the worst Republican in the country to put up against Barack Obama."
Romney now calls the Massachusetts reforms a "state solution to a state problem" and vowed to repeal Obama's health care reforms on his first day in the Oval Office.
Michael Cannon, director of health policy studies at the libertarian Cato Institute, said that while Republicans detest Obama's health care law, they won't necessarily turn away from Romney because he supported similar reforms earlier.
"I think the only way President Obama can neutralize Obamacare is if the Supreme Court strikes down the entire law," Cannon said. "Otherwise, part of the law is going to be living and breathing. The American public is solidly against it; the opposition isn't just weak opposition, it's really intense opposition."
The Supreme Court recently heard oral arguments over the constitutionality of the Obama health care reforms and is expected to rule on the law in June, in the middle of the presidential campaign. Depending on how the court rules, it could just as easily mobilize conservatives as liberals in the election.
But team Obama isn't waiting until that decision to define Romney. The message of a new video Obama's campaign released about Romney and health care was clear: If Republicans despise what Obama has done, Romney deserves some of the blame.
"Then all of a sudden, Mitt Romney started attacking basically what he'd done," health reform consultant Jonathan Gruber, who advised both Romney and Obama, says in the video. "Here's a guy who came up with this brilliant idea, made it work in Massachusetts, then suddenly, because it was from another party, it was a bad idea."