text:
Tramontina Tri Ply Safety Issue - Edges Like Knives
- QueensTomato Jul 12, 2013 05:54 PM
I purchased Tri Ply Clad NSF Tramontina cookware over a year ago. The edges have become sharp as knives since the aluminum in the middle of the tri ply has become eroded to the point that both the exterior edge and the interior edge are as sharp as a knives all around the diameter of the pans. I purchased both the 8 piece and 10 piece tri ply clad sets as well as several other Tramontina Tri Ply open stock items. I have cut my hands and arms several times on these pieces. I have contacted the Tramontina company who did not seem to care. I regret my purchase and would never purchase any Tramontina product again. Has anyone else had this experience?
That seems really odd. You must have something really corrosive to eat that much aluminum so quickly.
re: Sid Post
I don't get to cook all that much (time), don't use high heat, and treat the Tramontina Tri Ply the same way I treated my non tri ply cookware. I put them in the dishwasher (time.) According to Tramontina this tri ply is dishwasher safe. That's one reason why I bought them.
re: QueensTomato
Virtually all uncoated tri-ply is dishwasher safe. Elron and I also have some corrosion problems with aluminum. It appears to be the fault of the dishwashing detergent we're using. If you're using an all-in-one, Jet Dry, Lemi-shine, vinegar or adding softening salt, that could be the cause of your problem. All of them seem to corrode aluminum.
I've got hard water, so for me, I need to use some sort of softener (like those above) to prevent hard water etching and cloudiness on my glassware. That means I'm going to have to hand wash my pots. FWIW, those Tramontina pans are very high on the list of cookware I've been testing as I prepare to move to induction cooking. I think hand washing is, for me at least, a small trade-off for the performance of those pans.
Maybe one of our resident science geeks will weigh in with an alternative that will solve my problem (and yours), but I'm not hopeful.
re: DuffyH
Duffy H,
I guess I need cookware as tough as old boots!
Is there any tri ply out there with sealed edges, constructed entirely of stainless that you know of?
re: QueensTomato
What you want is disk-bottom cookware. The conductive layer of aluminum or copper is encapsulated in a disk that is bonded to the bottom of the pan. The side walls are constructed entirely of stainless steel.
You'll notice a performance difference in frypans, especially if you cook on a gas range, but the advantage of no corrosion could outweigh that.
Look for pans that have a disk that is as close as possible to the diameter of the bottom of the pan for best results. Pans with smaller disks may cook unevenly, because the steel walls won't heat as quickly as the bonded base.
re: DuffyH
You are describing the cookware I donated when I upgraded to the tri ply clad.
Having tri ply clad, sealed at the edges with SS rivets would be great. Performance and convenience.
re: QueensTomato
<Having tri ply clad, sealed at the edges with SS rivets would be great. Performance and convenience.>
Speaking of rivets, what do the rivets on your Tramontina look like? Are they corroding? I thought they were stainless inside and out.
re: DuffyH
The rivets on the Tramontina look fine - they are fully stainless.
The rivets on the lid for a Cuisinart SS, stock pot are starting to look fuzzy and misshapen.
re: QueensTomato
Thanks for the info, it's good to know. As I'm shopping now for new induction cookware, Tramontina is high on my list. Very high. I really like the weight, balance and handles on it. The stainless rivets are just one more sign of quality.
Aside from the aluminum corrosion, how do you like it?
re: DuffyH
Duffy H,
For me it was a step up from my disc bottom clad. Sauces and omelets were much improved.
I did notice on the 12 in. saute pan that the heat is not well distributed to the edge of the pan. Almost 2 inches around the diameter get less heat.
re: QueensTomato
Thanks, QT.
I'm glad to know it beats disk bottom cookware, as I am not a fan of that stuff.
I was watching water come to a boil in my 3.5 qt Calphalon clad saucepan tonight and noticed that it had a somewhat weird heating pattern. On my radiant smoothtop, a ring of bubbles formed, then they got wider, as expected. But one side of the pan was noticeably lagging behind the rest of the pan. The water was almost at a full boil before bubbles began rising from the the side nearest the handle. Too strange.
re: DuffyH
Your Calphalon Tri Ply Clad has been going strong in the dishwasher for 11 years and my Tramontina didn't even last 11 months. The piece that is most affected is the frying pan which does not have straight edges. Could the Calphalon be better quality?
re: QueensTomato
I doubt it's a question of quality. Many people would say that Calphalon TP is not up to the quality of Tramontina. I often see reviews placing Tramontina on par with All-Clad, followed by Cuisinart tri-ply, with Calphalon somewhere down the line. I can't say, I only know it's served me well. While I was waiting for the corn to pop yesterday I checked the edge on my large saucepan, and it is indeed pretty sharp, with 2 definite edges where the aluminum has receded. Mine has rolled rims, which may help explain why I didn't notice it before.
Coogles pointed out below that banning phosphates in 2010 had the detergent makers looking for other ways to boost cleaning power, with additions like citric acid and baking soda, which is bad news for aluminum. I didn't know that, and it may explain why my Calphalon has lasted so long but is now deteriorating.
re: QueensTomato
Hi, QT:
From where I sit, Calphalon has a wide and deep reservoir of quality and credibility to draw upon. There are different lines, of course, but it is a venerable and generally trustworthy brand. Construction-for-construction, I vouch for it.
This discussion has shifted. If anyone wants cookware that is impervious to highly acidic and abrasive DW tabs, good luck--as far as I know, it doesn't exist. Thick, straight-gauge SS might work the longest, but you wouldn't like the performance...
Eroded from.... what??
I'll take a guess that you're running them thru the dishwasher. And maybe also guess that you're using one of the newer "all-in-one" detergent tablets?
re: Eiron
Do you think it's the salts in the all-in-one tabs that are to blame? I ask because we've got hard water and if I don't use a combo detergent I do fill the salt dispenser in my DW.
I'm about to replace my cookware and would be willing to give up the DW if necessary, but would rather find a work-around if possible. But hard water and spots remain an issue.
re: DuffyH
Spots are cosmetic, so I wouldn't worry about them hindering the performance of your cookware. I'd hand wash.
re: Leepa
Leepa, I'm not worried at all about spots on my cookware. I'm wondering if using plain DW detergent + salt in the DW will still cause the corrosion I'm seeing in the aluminum rivets.
I'll wash the cookware by hand if need be, because using plain DW detergent alone is not an option. It WILL leave spots, and eventually etch, my glassware. I've still got a few cloudy glasses left from the time before I began adding salt to soften my water.
It's a common problem for people with hard water. We either use an all-in-one detergent, add Jet-Dry to plain old DW detergent, or add salt to the DW.
re: DuffyH
Your problem is understandable. I think hand washing pots and pans is the best option.
re: DuffyH
Hi DuffyH,
I'm not sure which component of the all-in-one tabs are causing the erosion. I use the 'Finish' brand "All-In-One" tabs, which are the dry tablets (about the size of a 9-volt battery) with the red ball in the center. As you already know, these have the Jet-Dry rinse aid included.
Since you've already experienced aluminum erosion due to the addition of salt to your DW, I'd choose to stop using it. Personally, if you're washing a lot of aluminum, my choice would be to use "plain old DW detergent" with Jet-Dry (or another pre-packaged rinse agent) added in separately.
I'm including a picture of our Revere Ware copper-coated cookware. Before we started using these all-in-one tabs, our copper was always 'old brown'. But now, they're always bright, just as they were when we bought them. I've noticed the same effect on an aluminum pasta strainer we have; it used to be dull grey, but now it's silver-white. It's obvious that the detergent is 'cleaning' (eroding) material that it never was before!
re: Eiron
<I've noticed the same effect on an aluminum pasta strainer we have; it used to be dull grey, but now it's silver-white.>
Elron, is the pasta strainer shiny, like polished aluminum? The rivets on my pans are silver white, but very rough, not at all shiny.
I use Finish Quantum, in the same shape and with the same Jet Dry ball. I don't currently use salt, as the Finish prevents etching. I can't imagine that ditching the Finish for vanilla DW detergent + salt will yield less corrosion. The salt would certainly act to set up an anode/cathode situation. I've heard people rave about Lemi-shine. Have you heard of that? I've no idea how it works.
Looks like I'll be hand-washing the new stuff when I get it.
re: DuffyH
No, the strainer is now like your rivets, very rough & it's even thinning noticeably. It wasn't all that thick to begin with, but at this rate I don't expect it to remain usable very much longer!
re: QueensTomato
Hi QueensTomato,
I would say that any 'regular' automatic diswashing detergent (powder or gel) should work, based on my own experience. And, obviously, forget about adding any rinse aids.
We got our new KA dishwasher 2 yrs ago (I really wanted a Bosch, but the saleslady convinced my wife otherwise) & had no problems until we started using the Finish All-In-One tabs. Prior to that, I would buy whatever national-brand detergent was the best deal at the time. Usually that meant Cascade or Palmolive. And always the citrus version, as that's what my wife preferred.
Our copper stayed dark brown, & our aluminum stayed dark grey (& always had that lovely oxidized chalk residue).
But, to be honest, I don't care for the aluminum oxidation residue left by 'regular' detergent any more than the corrosion caused by all-in-one detergent. So I've always hand washed our tri-ply anyway.
I know, that's not really what you want to hear.... :-)
re: Eiron
I'm having trouble navigating your answer, sorry I'm a bit thick.
What do you think is the safest dishwasher deturgent to use with stainless steel that is multiple ply and involves aluminium: Brand/Type(Gel/powder/tablet)/Scent?
Anyone else please tell me what you think the safest dishwasher deturgent is as well, this isn't just directed at Eiron.
Also, what are you referring to when you say aluminium oxidation residue? Is it unsafe or just ugly? Is the cookware being harmed by this residue? Does it impart taste when you cook/get into food?
re: KungPaoDumplings
Hi KPD,
Sorry for not responding sooner, & sorry that I don't have a 'definitive' answer for you. As I mentioned, my only recommendation would be for a 'regular' automatic dishwashing detergent. By that I mean something that does NOT include 'power cleaners', 'scrubbing action', 'rinse aids', or anything other than just detergent. I don't believe brand, type, or scent makes a difference.
The aluminum oxidation is a medium-dark grey 'powder' that accumulates on the surface of unprotected aluminum. (It's aluminum's equivalent to steel rust.) The aluminum cookware is actually forming the oxidation as a protective layer (so that it doesn't continue to oxidize & disintegrate into pieces & chunks). My personal feeling is that I don't want to consume any of it, but many people feel that aluminum is non-reactive in the human body & therefore not a concern. I would imagine that it can have a slightly metallic taste, depending on how much gets mixed into your food, but I don't know because I tend to wash any oxidized aluminum off before I use the item.
re: Eiron
Please don't worry about the time (I'm sorry myself I took so long to reply to you) or the response, I'm just happy you responded and your answer is more than helpful in every way.
I understand what you mean now about "regular" detergent, this makes a lot of sense now.
Thank you for writing all of this out, it was very helpful; I understand what you were saying much more thoroughly now.
re: DuffyH
Before the government banned their use in consumer detergents in 2010, most dishwasher detergents contained phosphate based cleaners. After the ban, the manufacturers reformulated by increasing the levels of other cleaning agents (sodium carbonate and/or citric acid) so their products would still be somewhat effective, but one of the downsides (besides that they don't work nearly as well) is that they discolor and corrode aluminum. Until they figure out how to make an aluminum friendly detergent without phospahtes hand washing will be the way to go, or you could pick up some commercial grade detergent which is not covered by the ban (restaurant supply store or online at places like Amazon) and shouldn't be quite as bad on your aluminum.
I recently noticed that my Calphalon tri-ply rivets (aluminum) are eroding. One of the lids fell apart when I dropped it. The handle fell right off. Calphalon sent me a new lid, so i was lucky there.
I haven't had any issues with the aluminum sandwich layer eroding and I've had them for over 11 yrs. My pans have rolled rims, though, not the straight rims of the Tramontina.
As Elron noted, I use an all-in-one packet in my DW.
I have a niece who put her aluminum 1/2 sheet pans in the dishwasger because she didn't have time to wash them after baking cookies (frozen cookie dough). After a while they were black and sticky. Her cake pans were the same. She then found it necessary to line them with aluminum foil when baking cakes and cookies (she is unaware of parchment). It was ridiculous. If she took the 2 or 3 minutes to wash the pan, she would have wasting much more time later. She also does not have the time to keep her kitchen drawers organized so she spends time looking in ever drawer (except the flatware drawer) looking for stuff.
We never put any cookware in the DW with the exception of an occassional small saucepan. The stuck on stuff will turn rock hard in the dry cycle. I use Barkeeper's Friend on all SS and it is fast, easy, and the interior of the pans are slick as a whistle with a mirror finish. It took me longer to write this post on a phone than it does to wash the cookware.
re: John E.
Hi John,
In defense of stainless tri-ply cookware, I washed it for many years (I've had mine for over 11 years) in the DW, and it's only in the last few years that I've begun to see a lot of corrosion on the aluminum rivets. When the rivets failed on one of my lids recently, Calphalon replaced it promptly.
I'd say I've had good service from my pans, and always liked the sparkling clean pans that emerged from my DW.
I contend that it's not TomatoQueen's fault, or mine, that the mfgs. don't tell us to avoid rinse agents.
re: DuffyH
I guess I did come off as overly critical and I should not have done so. I have always rather filled the dishwazher wirh uniform sized items such as plates, bowls, glasses, etc. and have preferred to wash by hand the pots and pans because they get cleaner (for me) and they do not divert the water away from getting other stuff completely clean. Plus, I remember what the DW did to the anodized aluminum saucepans we used to have.
re: John E.
I hear you, John. I wash most of my mixing bowls by hand, along with my often-used broiler pans, baking sheets, all my knives and so much more. I did switch to SS colanders and strainers a while back because my aluminum ones couldn't go in the DW at all.
And no plastic at all. I know a lot of it is top-rack safe, but I've had too many things warp to trust my Snapware to chance.
Hi, QT:
I've been holding off responding, waiting to see where this thread goes.
I've been with and without dishwashers off and on for the last 25 years. They're not as convenient as most people claim, if by "convenient" you mean "saves time" or "results". You pre-rinse; you sort; you load; you add detergent; you add rinse and sheeting agents; you fool with settings; you wait (while you wait, you search for a better all-in-one tab); you unload, only to find that you either filled it too full or you waited too long to run a full load. By the time you're done, you could have done the dishes 2-4x over by hand, including drying. Oh, I left out what happens in the DW if your garbage disposal has indigestion and shopping for the consumables.
Perhaps if you're a caterer or Octomom, a balance tips their way *a little*. IMHO, dishwashers sell only because: (a) people don't want to get their hands wet and/or dirty; and (b) they fear they'll be judged if their kitchen doesn't have one.
If you ever want to have the best cookware (i.e., thick copper or aluminum) or stemware (i.e., crystal), or china, you must hand wash anyway. If you want even good-grade versions of those things (e.g., cookware that is not fully clad with SS and with SS handles), you *should* hand wash for appearance and (as you've learned) longevity and safety. If your cookware is disposable enough to justify a mechanical appliance that quickly degrades it, what does that say about your cooking priorities? Is cooking an act of love, or is it just filling the tank? Where, in between, does it fall?
Tramontina is usually an excellent value. If you like it in all other respects, I would take your eroded pieces to a metal shop and have it smooth and round the sharp edges. It shouldn't cost very much, and the amount of metal removed would be negligible. And then I'd get in the habit of hand washing (or make that part of the kids' daily chores; they still do that, right, chores?).
Anyway, I hope you find what works for you.
re: kaleokahu
There you are, Kaleo! I've been waiting for you to jump in here.
I'm sort of with you on the question of whether or not to own a DW. Cooking for 2, I only run mine every 2nd or 3rd day, and all it contains is flatware, plates, and cups. Plus, yeah, 2 saucepans and their lids which I've got to stop doing.
I do a lot of hand washing, including all my frypans, plastics and metal baking pans. I lived without one for 6 months when I moved into my current home, because the existing one was worse than useless, with horribly bent tines and rusted-out spots where the vinyl coating had been stripped away. I considered replacing it with a trash compactor, but the Dude talked me out of it based on resale questions down the road.
I do love my Bosch, though. It does a great job and is literally silent. It is also a great time-saver when we're hosting my son's family, which is about twice a month, getting us out of the kitchen and back to the lanai in record time. But all in all, I agree that for many of us, they're not a necessity.
I like the suggestion of a metal shop to repair QT's pans. Brilliant!
FYI - Most kids suck at washing dishes, IME. I really HATE pulling dirty dishes out of the cupboard. Yuck!
re: DuffyH
I loved my Bosch when I had it. We learned not to use dishwasher detergents or rinse agents with lemon. It messes up stainless flatware. I wonder if it corrodes aluminum.
I used a dishwasher for years and had no issues with my older Cuisinart Everyday Stainless cookware. I chose stainless with I was replacing my old pots because it could be dishwashed.
(And here I am again replacing the stuff I bought about 13 years ago.)
re: sueatmo
Hey sue,
I bought a Miele in '04 for the quiet, low water use and above all, the upper cutlery rack, which no one else had then. Problem was, it didn't dry well.
My fabulous rental ('08) in Wa. had a Bosch, but no upper rack. Quieter than the Miele, and got dishes really dry. I was really torn when I bought my new one here in Tampa. Loved the Bosch, but really wanted that cutlery rack. Color me happy when I found out that they'd copied the design. Score!
<(And here I am again replacing the stuff I bought about 13 years ago.)>
And aren't we having some fun doing it!!
re: DuffyH
Yes. I have to admit. Yes.
re: DuffyH
Here is my latest acquisition:
http://tinyurl.com/mykyohj Sitram Profiserie Rondeau, 7.6-quart
re: sueatmo
I love my Sitram Profiserie pieces.
re: kaleokahu
Hi Kaleokahu,
I often laugh at myself as I rinse, sort and strategically load the dishwasher, imagining my MIL from the old country standing over me and saying "My dear, I could have washed all that by now!"
My long seasoned cast iron pans and enameled dutch oven are taken care of by hand, and now I know I'll have to do the same with these pans. But I would be lying if I said I don't appreciate my dishwasher and would love to have good cookware that is truly dishwasher safe.
Now I am looking for a machine shop. Thank you for the suggestion.
re: QueensTomato
Hi, QT:
You're very welcome.
A handy person with a file and some emery cloth (or an angle grinder) could manage it, too.
The big appeal of a DW is mental--its owner *feels* as if they're freed from drudgery, even if it's not so.
re: kaleokahu
Hi kaleo,
For me, there's a definite benefit to having a capable dishwasher. Our recent addition (a KA model) has shown me that technology HAS improved the breed. I no longer rinse my dishes, only scrape off the chunks into the sink disposer, as the new beast will clean dried yogurt, eggs, sauces, etc witout blinking. (Does my new KA blink? I'll have to check.) I no longer soak & scrub baked-on Pyrex, as the new beast has a surprisingly effective 'pot-scrubber' mode. I don't even have to be very concerned about loading any more, as my spouse loads completely wrong (isn't always the spouse who does it wrong?) and yet the new beast disgorges clean load after clean load.
Besides removing all of these prior restrictions, it uses FAR less water than I ever could washing by hand.
The single drawback I can think of is the extra time it takes to actually perform its washing task. It's much longer than I would take, and much longer than the old goat it replaced. But, y'know, I'm off doing other things while it's washing, so I really don't care! I might be having a 2nd glass of wine, or watching TV, or sleeping, or maybe even working on knives....
Overall, for me, the new beast is a definite 'win'!
re: Eiron
Hi, Eiron: "...it uses FAR less water than I ever could washing by hand."
This is interesting. Do you know how much water a cycle takes? The way *I* handwash is basically two 2-gallon tubs, one for wash and another for rinse. Occasionally, I'll refill the rinse tub if the rinse water gets cloudy. Does the KA use less than 4G/cycle?
Yes, the technology continues to advance. Miele now has a model that Reidel has approved for washing its stemware, but it requires Miele's proprietary ($$$) detergent, and I still shudder at the thought.
Re: baked-on crud, I have the pressure washer ready right off the back porch. One pull and I'm up to 3000psi. ;)
re: kaleokahu
Hi Kaleo,
<Re: baked-on crud, I have the pressure washer ready right off the back porch. One pull and I'm up to 3000psi. ;)>
When I read this tonight, I thought it was brilliant! Simply brilliant.
There are still a few wrinkles in my technique*, so I hope you'll describe in detail how you do it.
First, is the pan supposed to skate across the patio into the pool?
Second, if it *is* supposed to do that, shouldn't you have mentioned that this shouldn't be done with a clear glass pan?
Third, will you please call my grandsons and explain to them that they'll be able to swim again as soon as Nana drains the pool and fishes out the shattered glass?
Thank you so much,
* By "technique" I mean that this is the way I imagine the whole thing proceeding in Duffyland. ;)
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
You're wicked, but I admire your whimsy. At the risk of channeling Red Green, let me say this:
It is possible, with a cheap pan, to bend it like Beckham through a neighbor's window in a certain class of neighborhood. I have not run the ballistics, but at 3000 psi on a low-friction surface, I think a light skillet might make 20-30 feet downrange, with an elevation of a few feet. More or less, depending on handle mass and Bournouli effect.
Let me also say this: Pools are for those with bad beaches.
Finally, I refuse to believe someone in the Spring of Life can have grandchildren...
re: kaleokahu
<Let me also say this: Pools are for those with bad beaches.>
"There are 2 kinds of people; beach people and pool people. I'm a pool person." - Loni Anderson
Tampa's got some great beaches, but I'm with Loni, I hate sand. That's why boats have swim ladders. Ocean - good. Sand - bad.
<Finally, I refuse to believe someone in the Spring of Life can have grandchildren...>
Now you're just sucking up, but I like it. FWIW - I tell people who make similar comments that my son was my prom date. ;)
re: kaleokahu
Hey Kaleo,
Me again. I looked up the specs on my Bosch. It uses ~2.25gal/cycle.
re: DuffyH
You're welcome any time, Duffy:
2.5G? That's good. I was being a bit liberal at 4G (much as I like "infinity" pools, my 2G tubs never overfloweth). But it sounds like a rough parity, so I concede what I take to be points of *cost* and *ecology*. I leave it to you to compute the cost and the cost-benefit. Perhaps in sub-Saharan Africa or the Gobi there is a big difference.
re: kaleokahu
Yes absolutely, parity. I was really surprised to find out how little water the DW uses. I was thinking it was more like 4-5gal.
re: kaleokahu
No, I don't know exactly how much water it takes. All of the information I can find says it's 4gal/cycle. However, my sink (where I would wash MY dishes) holds somewhere around 22 gal (both sides):
Since I'd probably fill it at least 2/3 full for washing/rinsing, I'm going to use a solid 15 gal of water to wash the same volume/number of dishes as my KA would do with a full load.
The SMALL side of my sink holds 6.6 gal of water. I can't imagine how difficult it must be washing dishes in a partially filled 2 gal tub.
The cocker spaniel we had was a great baked-on-crud-washer! Alas, he is no more...
re: Eiron
I'm with Kaleo on using small basins to wash dishes. When I'm hand washing, I put my largest dirty bowl or pot in one sink with soapy water, wash everything, placing the soaped/washed items in my other sink. Finally, I spray rinse everything and move them to the drying rack. Not quite as water-wise as Kaleo's 2 tubs, but very easy, not at all difficult.
The biggest pot I use is an 8qt SS DO, and I fill it about 2/3rds full. I can wash a whole bunch of stuff using my 4.5qt saucepan as my wash basin. I don't get where this should be hard to do.
Dude likes to use the sink for a wash basin, but I think that's just wasting water. He likes to put everything into the sudsy sink. I don't see the need for that.
Sadly, our cats aren't very good at washing plates for us; they only clean the parts they like.
re: DuffyH
I understand. If I were going to do this, I'd fill the large side with enough soapy water to wash everything, & fill the small side with enough water to rinse everything. Assuming I could cover it all, maybe 1/2 full on each side would be good enough? But that's still 11 gal.
Here's the part count from the last load we ran:
10 plates
14 bowls
16 cups
8 pet food bowls
4 pcs of Tupperware (+ lids)
30 pcs of flatware/utensils
If my dishwasher does all of this with 4 gal of water, that's better than what I'm going to achieve doing it by hand.
Also, I'm still going to do most of the same steps kaleo outlined above (scrape, pre-rinse, sort, load, add detergent, unload) when I'm washing by hand.
For me, the dishwasher definitely saves both time & water.
But I completely understand that not everybody feels the same way.
re: Eiron
Hey Elron,
I am completely in your camp about the time and water saving. As I wrote, mine uses about 2.5 gallons per load. No way can I beat that hand washing more than a few pieces.
I'm with Kaleo on the tub vs sink debate for those times when I do hand wash, which is at least once a day, often twice a day.
re: DuffyH
Yeah, I REALLY wanted the Bosch! (More water-conserving AND energy efficient!)
The only consolation I have is that the KA holds more pieces than the Bosch, so I only run it about once every four days. I think that (somewhat) offsets its 1.5 gal increase over the Bosch.
At least, that's what my OCD is telling me.... ;-)
re: QueensTomato
As kaleo suggested, you don't need to find an actual machine shop. A neighbor with a belt sander would be just as beneficial.
I actually did this to a *new* All-Clad Copper Core pan that I bought. It was a 2nd from TJMaxx. AC must've stopped finish-work on the pan when they deemed it a 2nd, as the edges were surprisingly sharp! A few minutes of very light, careful edge sanding with my 1" belt was all it took to make everything safe & rounded. You can get these machines for less than $50.
re: Fowler
Tramontina customer service indicated "...send your Tri Ply Clad cookware back for warranty inspection. Please note that our warranty covers manufactures defects only and does not cover normal wear, overheating issues, warping or scratches in the cookware. When packing your cookware, please make sure that each piece is wrapped well, as we do not cover damage caused during shipping."
Reading their response, I wasn't very hopeful, and if I sent them my cookware, what would I cook with?
This post made me pull out my Tramontina sauce pan and inspect it - sure enough, the aluminum layer is about 1mm lower than the stainless steel on either side, all around the rim of the pan. It's also full of tiny holes, like it's being eaten away. However, unlike OP's pan, mine isn't sharp. I'm sure this has happened because I put it in the dishwasher regularly, and use the Finish packs. It's probably pretty harsh.
re: phrekyos
I've decided to blame Bosch. They gave me coupons for the Finish Quantum. :)
re: phrekyos
I don't use dishwasher, so I will not know.
I think a better question is: does this "receding" problem only occurs for Tramontina triply cookware or for most other triply cookware? In other words, is this a Tramontina problem or a general dishwasher/triply problem.
re: Chemicalkinetics
I would certainly like to know the answer to that question.
Since I have a 9.5 hour work day and a 2 hour commute each way, it would be wonderful if there were tri ply that could stand up to the dishwasher.
re: QueensTomato
My guess is that high end triply like All Clad probably design to minimize these problems. I am just wondering if the lower end one like Cuisinart or Calphalon can withstand the dishwasher route. If so, they would be a great substitute for you. I have Calphalon triply cookware, but I don't use dishwasher, so I cannot verify their ability to hold up in a dishwasher. I hope someone will drop in with useful information for you.
re: Chemicalkinetics
I would be curious to know if Tramontina recommends that their tri-ply be washed in a dishwasher and if so what kind of detergent they recommend.
re: Fowler
Their website says dishwasher safe. They don't mention detergent.
re: Leepa
Calphalon Tri-Ply is also dishwasher safe:
re: Chemicalkinetics
I't happening to my Calphalon. As for it occurring in other brands, I can only speculate, but it seems to me that unless the aluminum edges are somehow completely covered by steel, this will happen.
I've looked at Sur La Table, Le Creuset and Cuisinox Elite and they've all got a bare aluminum edge, just like Tramontina and Calphalon.
I'm now hand washing mine.
re: DuffyH
<but it seems to me that unless the aluminum edges are somehow completely covered by steel, this will happen.>
Thanks for your observation. I think you are right. As long as the aluminum is exposed, they will all do the same thing. It does not sound like this is a Tramontina specific issue, but rather a wider problem.
re: Chemicalkinetics
Does anyone know if the inner Demeyere Atlantis aluminum is covered by stainless steel or if it is exposed like other brands? I know their handles are stainless steel at least.
Demeyere has suggested not using a dishwasher, although somewhere (I'm having trouble finding it again) something from Demeyere (Talking about Atlantis) said it was dishwasher safe.
re: KungPaoDumplings
I would say that they're as susceptible to corrosion as the rest, based on this, from the DM website:
Dishwasher detergents are becoming more and more aggressive and can affect the aluminium of the pan. For a long life we advise to wash the pan by hand and use water with detergent or washing up liquid with a soft sponge, brush or cloth.
re: DuffyH
Thank you Duffy. That seems rather definitive, the aluminium must not be covered by stainless steel.
Do you know what the difference between detergent and washing up liquid Demeyere is talking about here?
re: KungPaoDumplings
From the research I've done, it appears that modern DW soaps have replaced phosphates with citric acid and other "aggressive" agents to boost their cleaning power.
My Dude is doing boat maintenance tomorrow and has promised to stop by West Marine and buy me a zinc anode to try in the DW. Stay tuned.
re: DuffyH
I will stay turned, please keep this thread updated, I'd love to know what happens.
Do you know what the difference between detergent and washing up liquid Demeyere is talking about from the excerpt you gave:
"For a long life we advise to wash the pan by hand and use water with detergent or washing up liquid with a soft sponge"
They seem to be saying it's the same items but in America I only know of washing up liquid as the type of soap used for hand washing dishes (I would never call soap for hand washing dishes deturgent, am I missing a soap product that gets used for that purpose?), I'm not certain what Demeyere means here, especially since they use two terms instead of just one.
re: KungPaoDumplings
I *think* they're referring to your standard dish soap, like Joy, Palmolive, Dawn, et al. But they're crazy Belgians, who knows what they use? :0
re: DuffyH
When I read it I was like "washing up liquid", okay that is Joy, etc. Then I go back in the sentence and go, so what is deturgent?
They say this in their videos too.
In the videos they always show someone using products like Joy and I'm sitting and watching these and going, what is deturgent then? In the videos they aren't even seen using two different products either.
Are they using two words because they want to be clear to other countries that use other terms? I'm not certain why they use two terms, when one term seems to be the only soap you should use.
I see washing up liquid and the term dish soap as interchangeable, but deturgent is pretty much anything that goes inside a dishwasher.
re: KungPaoDumplings
Let's see see if I can add to the confusion. I've also seen dishwashing liquid, which can either be what you use in the DW or what you use in the sink.
Generally, I've found this to be true -
If it's called detergent, it definitely goes into a machine of some kind, for dishes or clothing.
If it's called soap, it goes on your hands or in a sink. Unless it's laundry soap, in which case all bets are off.
Be sure to let me know if I can help even more. It's what I live for! :0
re: DuffyH
I've never seen liquid that was dishwasher and sink/hands safe, that *must* be what they are talking about when they say deturgent.
At least we're in agreement on generally what is true.
Your last sentence made me giggle. As I said to Kaleo, I've wanted to say to you as well: I've seen you a lot on here and I'm glad you're here because you're very helpful.
re: KungPaoDumplings
Thank you for your kind words. We aim to please. And if we can make you shoot a beverage out your nose, so much the better. ;)
re: DuffyH
As uncomfortable as that sounds, the laugh is certainly appreciated. You're welcome.
re: DuffyH
When we moved a little over a year ago so far from my workplace, my DH made sure there was a dishwasher installed and I purchased new cookware - Tramontina. Prior to that never had a dishwasher.
So, from what I understand your tri ply stood up well for many years in the dishwasher when there were phosphates in the DW detergent. What brand did you use back then?
re: QueensTomato
QT, IIRC it was mostly straight up Cascade. It's what Mom used, and you know how that goes, we stick with what we know.
I've been researching this lately and have determined that the only way to safely wash aluminum in a DW is to have no other metals present in the load.
Of course, clad stainless fails the test right out of the gate. Also, if your DW is like mine and has a stainless tub, it's a complete deal-breaker for aluminum. But I forgive Bosch, because I love my DW so much.
re: DuffyH
Does that also apply if using old school Cascade?
re: QueensTomato
I would say yes, since Cascade had to change their formula, just like all the others, to meet the state bans on phosphates.
re: DuffyH
Did you use the Cascade with phosphates on a septic system? Did it cause any problems?
re: QueensTomato
No, I never did.
I've been doing more research, and found that we can still buy detergents with phosphates, as the states that banned them still allow them for commercial use. Here's a link that compared a few:
It's also occurred to me that I might be able to stop the aluminum electrolysis by tossing a piece of zinc into the cutlery basket. If it's good enough for the aluminum on our boat, why not in the dishwasher? I'm wondering if this could be tested on a disposable aluminum pan, or a ball of aluminum foil. Has anyone here ever tossed those into the DW? I'm wondering how long it would take for erosion to show?
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
Not long if you have a gram scale. Weigh the sacrificial anode (zinc) new, and after a week's cycles.
Unless this wreaks havoc on other metals in the DW, it's worth a try.
re: kaleokahu
Brilliant! I do have a gram scale, right on my kitchen island. Just so I don't screw up, with a mixed load of zinc/aluminum/stainless flatware, if the zinc is corroding, will that mean the aluminum is not? Or could both corrode?
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
Here's a link: http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/Chart... Looks like unless you have magnesium kitchenware, you're OK.
The zincs on your boat work so well because seawater makes for a good electrical connection. The spray in your DW might not, but it's worth a try.
re: kaleokahu
Uhhhh- I think this forum has degenerated into a science lesson, perhaps- I mean, just saying??
re: bevwinchester
A little science can be a good thing, if it lets me wash my SS in my DW again. :)
Repeat after me...."science is our friend".
re: DuffyH
Chuckle, ok- I'm a player- "Science is our friend." Let's see where this goes.....
re: bevwinchester
You caught me, bev. All I've got to follow up with is "Fish are friends, not food."
Plus this anecdote - In college I majored in Zoology. My lab partner and I didn't like the sterile atmosphere in our labs, so we'd accessorize a bit. Like the time we stuck a bunch of seagrass in the jaws of the manatee skeleton hanging from the ceiling in the Comparative Anatomy lab. Or the time we skinned the mask off our lab cat and stuck it over a light bulb. We aimed it towards the podium; had our professor in stitches.
re: DuffyH
Well, I just bet you did! My college boyfriend majored in wildlife biology- thus followed many romantic evenings out listening to bird calls- yeah, yuk yuk!
re: bevwinchester
Do bird make these "yeah, yuk, yuk" voice?
re: kaleokahu
Thanks, Kaleo,
Apparently the spray in dishwashers makes a decent enough electrical connection, at least it seems so from the condition of our cookware.
In any case, I've got nothing to lose by trying.
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
You're welcome, of course. Let us know if cathodic protection works in the DW (strictly in a degenerative scientific sense, I mean).
re: kaleokahu
Today the great zinc test begins. Dude did some boat maintenance and was persuaded to buy me some small zincs. They weigh 203g each.
I stopped by our local Salvation Army store where I scored a vintage pre/early Calphalon crepe pan. It's in perfect shape, seems a shame to run this test on it, but it was the best cheap pan they had, at $5. It's been so gently treated that the wood screw plugs are still attached to the back of the handle. They should be visible in the 4th pic.
I'll weigh (hey! No puns!) in again in a few days and post more pics. Can you read the name on the zinc? :)
re: DuffyH
It does seem a shame to do to that pan, but it's certainly a worthy cause.
I'm excited to see what it looks like in a few days, here's to hoping that this works.
re: KungPaoDumplings
Martyr, gotta love someone's sense of humor.
re: DuffyH
Which is always something to smile at.
What a funny thing to see in your dishwasher everyday.
re: DuffyH
You mentioned that your Calphalon tri ply cookware stood up to many years in the dishwasher - pre phosphate ban.
Maybe it is worth it to find some detergent with phosphates?
At any rate, I won't be using Finish or any post phosphate ban harsh chemical detergents on my cookware.
I picked up some Seventh Generation dishwasher gel and the results are not half bad. It does not seem to react with the aluminum bits on my cookware either.
re: QueensTomato
I *think* phosphate detergents worked well, but can't be 100% certain, as I never noticed the corrosion until the lid fell apart 3 months ago. Coupling that incident with your experience makes me pretty confident that everything was fine until recent years. Add in Elron's aluminum colander and the case gets stronger.
Have you tried tossing in a ball of foil or a disposable aluminum pan to see how the 7th Gen does with those?
re: DuffyH
Duffy H,
No, but I found an aluminum meat tenderizer that is pretty useless that can be sacrificed. The crepe pan you are working with seems too nice to abuse. Have you made crepes in it?
re: QueensTomato
Nah, it's a nasty anodized thing with lots of stickiness. I'd rather make crepes in a SS frypan. I say this as someone who has 2 DeBuyer carbon steel crepe pans that I love.
Truly, this stinky pan has reminded me of the things I didn't like about my original Scanpan.
re: DuffyH
Did you season your SS pan to make crepes?
re: QueensTomato
<Did you season your SS pan to make crepes?>
Oh, hell, no! I'd never bother to cook crepes in SS when I've got those carbon steel crepe pans, which are already seasoned and make killer crepes. Killer lots of other things, too.
But it wouldn't be hard to do. It's pretty easy to turn SS non-stick, and I do it every once in a while, like if I need a mountain of scrambled eggs.
re: DuffyH
What method do you use to season SS?
re: QueensTomato
Heat pan, add oil. When oil smokes, remove pan from heat. Allow to cool, discard oil. Wipe pan.
Et Voila! Non-stick stainless steel.
re: QueensTomato
I know it's only been a week, but how is the Seventh Generation dishwasher gel working out for you?
You said it's not half bad, what isn't it good at?
I'm looking to dishwash stainless steel cookware as well since I need to rely on a dishwasher, but like you I want to not ruin my cookware.
re: KungPaoDumplings
It's not particularly good at tea stains (very strong Irish tea) or removing the wax left behind by raw, unfiltered honey on teaspoons and the rims of tea mugs. It also does not "scour' residue off cookware like the more abrasive detergents.
re: QueensTomato
Thanks for the 7th Gen review. I was skeptical, given the hard water here in Tampa. I trust 'Hounds to give me the unvarnished truth, thanks.
I've just placed an order for Bubble Bandit, a phosphate detergent. I'll let you know what happens.
re: DuffyH
I purchased a small box of commercial Cascade and I am running the dishwasher now with three pieces of tri- ply clad. Keeping my fingers crossed...
re: QueensTomato
Cool. When my new DW detergent arrives we can compare notes. Commercial Cascade is supposed to be really great stuff. IIRC, I loved how my dishes got cleaned with Cascade, back in the day.
re: DuffyH
I wonder out of the Bubble Bandit and the commercial Cascade which one will win.
I can't express how glad I am that both of you are doing this because I really need this information (I'd like to not errode my cookware too please, I really need to use my dishwasher).
Also, how is the zinc test going Duffy? Anything to report?
re: KungPaoDumplings
It's been a little less than 2 weeks, and so far the zinc is holding at just -1g, out of an original 203g.
re: DuffyH
So, what does that seem to be saying?
Is the zinc not working as much as it should?
re: KungPaoDumplings
I'm pretty sure it's working, KPD, I'm just the impatient kind who wants results NOW.
Science is science, after all. And this is pretty old science, at that.
re: DuffyH
Science can be slow, I share your want of having results now! I'm waiting to see if this zinc test does the trick or Bubble Bandit is the answer or commerical Cascade is the answer. I really just want the answers now though.
I'm glad the zinc seems to be doing the trick.
I wonder out of these three what will win (I'm getting closer to buying my Demeyere so it's starting to become a real need to know the answer, even if calmly).
re: KungPaoDumplings
Based on this, and your answer to my query about your shopping research (non-kitchen), I've got to say, you're exhibiting many geekish traits, my friend.
Or else you simply want the things you want, the way you want them, when you want them. Some people call this borderline OCD. Fie on them!
Either way - you're in EXCELLENT company! :)
re: DuffyH
Honestly, to referencing above what I really mean is this: I am a impatient person trying to wait for the answer of the winner so I don't ruin my cookware.
What was geekish about my non-kitchen shopping research? I only check "dimensions, quality, warranty, and customer service", just to make certain I'm not buying a lemon. (I'm not offended, just so you know. I'm just confused, did I read what you wrote above wrong?).
I'm not certain if I'm geekish, the second thing you mentioned (Here above), a bit of both of them, or none of them and I'm something else.
Whichever way things are: being in the right company certainly helps!
(I'm really sorry if any of this came out oddly or unclearly, my brain is a bit tired. Do ask questions if you have them, even if just for clarification).
re: KungPaoDumplings
Hi, KPD:
I would call you rigorously curious. It's the way to be, IMO.
re: kaleokahu
Hello Kaleo
I'm touched. I consider that to be the way to be too.
re: kaleokahu
+1 to Kaleo's "IMO", and still, "Rigorously Curious" = a little geeky.
Critters are really good at recognizing their own kind. :)
re: DuffyH
I don't think "rigorously curious" = a little geeky (But, that just might be me) and are you saying that Kaleo is geeky?
re: KungPaoDumplings
<What was geekish about my non-kitchen shopping research? I only check "dimensions, quality, warranty, and customer service", just to make certain I'm not buying a lemon.>
Well, let's see.
Man shopping for item x - It comes in black? Cool. Get the large one.
Woman shopping for item x - Does it come in pink? I've got shows that match!
Clearly, these are gross exaggerations, and most people do show more sense, but still. I've read WAY too many reviews complaining that the item is smaller than the buyer thought it would be (with dimensions clearly listed), it's not non-stick (description doesn't say non-stick), etc... IME, most people do NOT check dimensions, quality, warranty or customer service.
re: DuffyH
(I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory to anyone who ends up reading this (And I'm sorry if I offend you), but)
I find that people that fall under the "most people" category don't take enough time before purchasing an item. It doesn't take much time to find out dimensions (As you said they are clearly listed), quality (Read some reviews), warranty (Often in reviews if the company doesn't follow through and the warranty terms are usually next to the dimensions), and customer service (Often in reviews).
I don't have a lot of money and even if I did I wouldn't shop differently. How do I know if the sofa is going to fit through my door if I don't take the second it takes to look at the dimensions?
I agree that a lot of people don't do these things, but honestly I find that they're lacking common sense. (I'm sorry for how inflammatory this sounds, it's not my intention).
re: KungPaoDumplings
I couldn't agree with you more. We used to live quite comfortably, and it took me 6 months to choose a car, a resort or a crockpot.
We took early retirement and are living much more simply on our savings. I still spend 6 months shopping for things before buying, paying VERY close attention to the quality/price ratio.
This week I finally jumped and ordered an $11 portion scoop. This one only took 2 months to find the right size and brand. Yay, me! :D
See, what we call common sense, others call picky, indecisive, a whole host of words that describe people who make sure before committing. That's a charge I'll happily own.
re: DuffyH
"I couldn't agree with you more. We used to live quite comfortably, and it took me 6 months to choose a car, a resort or a crockpot."
I find that completely reasonable and normal.
"We took early retirement and are living much more simply on our savings. I still spend 6 months shopping for things before buying, paying VERY close attention to the quality/price ratio."
It's incredibly important to do.
"This week I finally jumped and ordered an $11 portion scoop. This one only took 2 months to find the right size and brand. Yay, me! :D"
I do the same thing with any priced items, doesn't matter if it's $500 or $5, I'm going to pay attention to finding the right item; my time isn't worth more than the money that will be wasted if I don't make an informed, well thought out, and smart decision. I buy things to last forever (Or as long as they possibly can).
"See, what we call common sense, others call picky, indecisive, a whole host of words that describe people who make sure before committing. That's a charge I'll happily own."
I honestly would call it just smart. It's just simple logic and sense to make an informed decision before doing something (Even buying something). Maybe the amount of time we can often take or the seemingly pointlessness of deciding on if a $11 scoop is what we really need makes others call us such things; but I find making quick, uninformed decisions is just a waste of money, often meaning you have to rebuy the product again and get rid of the original, often doing this multiple times until you get the object that is needed and works.
re: DuffyH
Hey Duffy
I'd say that Kaleo has it right; "rigorously curious" is an apt description of me.
re: KungPaoDumplings
<...are you saying that Kaleo is geeky?>
LOL! Are you seriously asking? K wants to cut up cookware to examine the construction. :D
re: DuffyH
I am actually am seriously asking (I know that is a surprise). I don't consider Kaleo geeky at all.
I understand why Kaleo would want to do it, especially since all of these companies like to give small and big lies about "what is inside".
And I have to say: you're very cute when you're amused.
re: KungPaoDumplings
<I understand why Kaleo would want to do it, especially since all of these companies like to give small and big lies about "what is inside".>
I get why he wants to do it, I just find it odd that he wants to.
<you're very cute when you're amused.>
Thank you, you're very kind, as always. And making me blush, too. :)
re: DuffyH
He's just healthily in the search for knowledge and facts.
You're welcome and indeed thank you. I hope that making you blush is a good thing.
re: KungPaoDumplings
KPD - It's a very good thing. :)
re: DuffyH
Aw, I'm glad to hear!
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
The OP's pans probably lost a few grams TOTAL to get those sharp edges. Too soon to judge, I say. Consider how long it takes between zincs on your boat, and that's in salt water.
To do this right, you'd have two equal-weight slugs of aluminum, one run with the anode, the other not. Alternate cycles and weigh all three.
re: kaleokahu
Hey Kaleo,
No doubt the 3-slug experiment would yield the fastest results, but I'm fresh out of aluminum slugs.
I'm going to trust the science and keep on washing that zinc. It's really clean! :)
re: QueensTomato
How did it go?
re: KungPaoDumplings
Preliminary findings on the Commercial Cascade:
It cleans better than 7th Generation but not as well as the 9v battery shaped, red ball in the center cleaner.
The commercial Cascade left some of the waxy honey residue on the rims of the tea mugs and bits of egg on the knifes. It does not scour.
As an aside, I have tried Wave Dishwasher Detergent in the past and the results were abysmal.
re: QueensTomato
Thank you for keeping us updated about this.
It's really disappointing that this isn't as good as Finish.
I'm glad it's working better than the 7th Generation, but it doesn't seem to be doing as good of a job for you as it did for someone who tested it on a link Duffy posted. Please keep us posted about its performance and if it changes.
I'm sorry the preliminary isn't showing the commercial Cascade to being a good choice; I had high hopes for this one, it seemed like the winner initially.
I'm glad to know that Wave is out too, it's nice to know what doesn't work as much as knowing what does work.
re: QueensTomato
I ran out Finish Quantum while waiting for the Bubble Bandit to arrive, so bought a bag of cheap powder bag things. The brand is Home 360º but seems to be identical to the Finish powder that are in little bags, one side blue, the other clear.
It did not perform as well as the Quantum, leaving some residue on the inside of some pots.
re: DuffyH
General thread update -
My Bubble Bandit arrived today, finally. Testing begins tomorrow and I'm glad. My pots are looking ugly. No shine to speak of, and plenty of rainbow and brown streaking on the inside base and walls. Generic powders suck. I really miss Finish Quantum. I'm hoping the BB cleans them up. Stay tuned.
BTW - zinc still weighs 202g, -1g from original weight.
I also received a reply from Calphalon today. CS rep. Lynn pointed out that some pans now have SS rivets, but the ones that have Aluminum will "likely" continue that way. No changes are planned.
Still, she did ask me for a list of all my affected pans and photos of all the rivets involved. I was happy to comply. Worst case is nothing happens. Best case is they send me new induction pots and change the rivets. I'm not holding my breath for that, but it was worth the time it took to document the issue if it makes them at least think about making a change.
Here are 2 of the photos I sent to Calphalon today, one showing aluminum rivets, the other showing the deterioration of aluminum in the pan rim, the "Edges like knives" QT talks about in the thread subject line.
re: DuffyH
I'm very excited for the Bubble Bandit coming in, I can't wait to see how it goes; I hope your pots clean up and get shiny again!
Does the zinc not changing mean that this isn't going as we hoped or is it still too soon to tell?
"I also received a reply from Calphalon today. CS rep. Lynn pointed out that some pans now have SS rivets, but the ones that have Aluminum will "likely" continue that way. No changes are planned."
That's too bad to hear, I was hoping they'd fix this problem.
I agree that it was worth the time if they consider making a change, I hope they send you new induction pots!
re: KungPaoDumplings
<Does the zinc not changing mean that this isn't going as we hoped or is it still too soon to tell?>
I think it just means it's not going as fast as I'd hoped. On the plus side, I won't have to buy new zincs very often.
re: DuffyH
Does the lack of speed mean that we are just taking longer to come to information that can lead to a conclusion or does it mean something else like that the aluminum may still be partially being affected?
That is a very happy plus.
re: KungPaoDumplings
It likely means it's just taking longer. Initially, the zinc was nice and zinc-colored and easily attacked. Now it's got a white, rough-feeling haze. I think this is why the loss rate has slowed.
What I really need is a better scale. Mine measures in 1g increments.
re: DuffyH
Do you think because it's hazy that the aluminum is being attacked now as well?
I hope you can get a better scale.
re: KungPaoDumplings
I don't *think* so, the science says no. It will take months to lose any measurable amount of aluminum.
re: DuffyH
I see, I'm glad the zinc seems to be doing its job.
re: QueensTomato
That's much too bad to hear.
I'm British so the tea/honey problem, is a problem.
I hope someone here can find something that works.
Thank you for responding, this review is incredibly helpful!
I know this thread is a 'little' old, but I'll add that this is NOT a Tramontina problem. It happens to All-Clad and Calphalon Tri-ply as well. Really, it's an aluminum problem. My very first piece of decent cookware was an A-C "try-me" 1 quart saucepan, which I always ran through the dishwasher. Within a year, the aluminum layer that is exposed along the rim had eroded and retreated substantially. I've since noticed that just about anything with aluminum does this. I have a pair of Henckels paring knives that keep getting thrown in the dishwasher (grrr), and the aluminum handle rivets are pitted. And it doesn't seem to matter too much what detergent you use. We were in the habit of grabbing whatever was on sale at target (liquid or tabs), and the erosion seemed to continue.
I don't have any tri-ply any more, and ALL cookware gets hand-washed, but in, the end, my conclusion is that exposed aluminum will erode when put in the dishwasher.
re: jljohn
<... but I'll add that this is NOT a Tramontina problem.>
Scanning the posts in the thread will convince anyone that this is an issue with clad cookware.
My conclusion differs somewhat from yours in that I'm convinced that bright aluminum, in the absence of a cathode metal (like steel), might be fine with one of the less aggressive DW detergents.
I've read this thread for many weeks now and even written a couple of posts. It seems to me there are two options, find a dishwasher soap and rinse agent that does not adversely affect aluminum, or wash the skillet, pot, pan, etc. by hand. The second option still seem viable since it takes about two minutes for me to hand wash a SS steel, tri-ply pan.
re: John E.
Option 2 is certainly viable, but a few weeks of hand washing reminded me of how shiny the DW makes my pots.
So I'm working on option 1, hoping to find a good solution. It will take some months, I think, to know if what I'm doing works, but I've got time.
re: DuffyH
"So I'm working on option 1, hoping to find a good solution. It will take some months, I think, to know if what I'm doing works, but I've got time."
And I am certainly happy that you have the time and the want to do it, you're certainly helping me out and I thank you for it!
re: DuffyH
We have an average Whirlpool dishwasher. I have found that on the regular cycle and heat dry, the SS pots and pans usually come out better by hand washing. I wash them with blue Dawn and then us BKF after to make sure there is nothing on the bottom. When I use the dishwasher, there seems to be a film on the bottom of the SS pots and pans.
Like I posted somewhere above, I prefer the dishwasher to
be filled with dishes, glasses, coffee cups, and flatware. I find that pots and pans take up too much space and get cleaner by hand using little time to do so.
re: John E.
I agree, John. We use the dishwasher for items like everyday dishes and coffee cups but hand wash SS and copper pans as well as all of our stemware and china flatware. And I really do not have any more or less time in my day than anyone else.
re: John E.
I've gotta agree. Seems like a lot of effort to avoid a couple of minutes of work.
re: Leepa
Well sure, if it were a couple minutes of work. But it's not. It's a couple minutes of work about 3 times a day, every day. 6 minutes a day for a month? 6 x 30 = 180 minutes, which IIRC is 3 hours. Every month.
I'm not saying hand washing is hard or a waste of time, but I've chosen to go another route, if I can. My time invested will be a one-time thing, while hand washing lasts forever.
Bottom line, I've got a DW that does a terrific job on my SS pots, better than hand washing, and I'd like to be able to continue using it.
re: DuffyH
I totally understand. What seems like a little bit of work to one person seems unreasonable to someone else. What works for me doesn't work for you... yada yada yada.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that I don't see the point. But I don't have to.
Six minutes a day is .0041% of the time available to you. (yes, I can actually do math, too!) Doesn't seem like a huge price to pay. To me, not having large pots and pans taking up valuable space in the DW, as mentioned before, is a better trade off. Works for me. Not for you...
re: DuffyH
You run your dishwasher three times per day, or even every day? we don't have that many SS pots and pans.
re: John E.
It's about a 50-50 split between running it every day and every other day. I use on average 2-3 pots a day, plus frypans and skillets. Fewer in summer when we grill more and up our salad consumption. We're retired, so it's 3 meals a day here at home, which I know is unusual.
I'm already washing my frypans and skillets by hand. Adding in my saucepans and other pots would mean a LOT of hand washing, because of all the other items that I hand wash. Even so, I still hand wash a pot a several times a week, because I need one to cook in.
I honestly don't understand why this preference is such a big hairy deal. My DW gets my pots nice and shiny and saves me work. I (and a few others) have recently discovered that aggressive detergents are a problem. I've tried hand washing and found that I prefer using the DW, so I'm working on a solution. Why is that an issue for anyone?
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
It's not a big hairy deal. Some folks are just really into their DWers, you included. If you're DWing 3 loads of pots every day, I'm just not sure you're saving a lot of time. Dishpan hands, fersure, though.
re: kaleokahu
Hi Kaleo,
No, not running the DW 3 times a day. Using 2-3 pots a day, plus a frypan or 2.
And my dishpan hands can use the break. ;)
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy: "It's a couple minutes of work about 3 times a day..."
Sorry, I must've misunderstood.
re: kaleokahu
I see now how that happened. Sorry for the syntax.
No worries
re: DuffyH
It's not a big hairy deal to me that anyone washes their pans in the DW. What seems excessive (to me only) is the hoops that people are going through to be able to do that. But there are other things that I obsess over and are excessive about such that you probably would think the same thing about me. To each their own.
re: DuffyH
If it works for you, great. I suppose the difference is that we need the space in the DW for plates and bowls as opposed to pots and pans.
My basic threory on this thread is that if the DW is damaging the pots and pans, then do not put them in the DW.
re: John E.
Hi, John: "...if the DW is damaging the pots and pans, then do not put them in the DW."
You really had to stretch for that one! LOL
Bubble Bandit results are in -
I've run 2 loads with BB. The first was done with 2 tablespoons of BB in a mixed load of porcelain, glassware, some stoneware and 2 SS saucepans. My overall impression was "meh". Everything got clean, although nothing sparkled. One of the pans had some alfredo sauce residue in the bottom, both had brown rings midway up the pan walls. The pan that didn't have the alfredo sauce had a rainbow stain in the bottom. This pan is highly susceptible to rainbow effects.
Trial 2 went much better. Because I've got hard water, I added a 3rd tablespoon of BB as recommended on the bag. The load was very similar. Right off, the dishes looked brighter, more sparkly. 2 glass dishes were very clean, no food traces left at all. One had held the remnants of the alfredo sauced-pasta and had only been lightly rinsed, then left to dry all day in the DW. The other had been used to bake brownies and not rinsed at all. Perfection. Both saucepans were lovely and very shiny, no brown rings and only a faint rainbow in the one that's prone to it.
Only one item in the load wasn't cleaned, a stoneware slow cooker crock. It had been used to make pulled pork tacos and had some baked-on crud on the side walls. It WAS a lot better looking than when I put it in, and I should note that I always hand wash my slow cooker inserts because it is so hard for the DW to remove everything from them. This is especially so for my smaller 2-quart inserts, because they're quite narrow with high walls. So that was an item I threw in just to see what would happen.
I'd say that BB seems, in the early going, to be up to my standards, which are really high, for a DW detergent. I've been happily paying through the nose for Finish Quantum because it does such an excellent job on dishes and glasses. I'll be watching glasses especially as time goes on, looking for signs of etching or cloudiness and will report back on what transpires.
re: DuffyH
This is great news!
Please keep us updated. I'm very happy to see how high your standards are; it will really mean that if this passes the test that it is a real winner. Thank you for writing this all out, it really shows your process.
I'm really glad to see this is looking like a solid hopeful.
Time to see who wins in the battle of zinc vs. Bubble Bandit!
re: DuffyH
Bubble Bandit and a Zinc = An Odd Couple
A strange thing happened to my zinc, using it with the BB. It gained back the gram of weight it had lost with the Finish Quantum. I asked the CS guys at BB about it, and today heard back, after they sent it to their chemist. Here's what the chemist said about the weight gain:
"With respect to the inquiry concerning any correlation between the status of a zinc sacrificial anode installed in a dishwasher and the use of Bubble Bandit detergent containing sodium polyphosphate, this is a possibility.
"Polyphosphates have been used to control corrosion of certain elemental metals, including zinc. It reacts by forming a thin, tight film on the elemental metals (including iron and zinc); these films or coatings keep water away from the metals and in this way control corrosion. Polyphosphate films are not permanent. They will dissolve over a period of time. Polyphosphates have been successfully used to protect pipes and other metal alloys (excluding copper) from corrosion.
"If the customer wants to "test" this theory, have customer remove the zinc anode from the dishwasher, place it in a container of water, and weigh again at a later date."
How bizarre is this? And today, it lost that gram again, still using BB. I've no idea what's really going on.
My pots haven't lost any weight yet, but I've always thought it would take months to know what's going on with them.
re: DuffyH
This is one of the weirdest things I have ever heard off (Right down to the "today, it lost that gram again, still using BB. I've no idea what's really going on.").
I'm really happy the BB people were quick to reply to you and help out in the way they could, that's nice to see.
It probably will take months to see the progress on the pan itself.
Thank you for the continued update!
How is the BB going?
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
If you're serious about this experiment, I suggest a scale that measures to the hundredth of a gram.
re: kaleokahu
Hey Kaleo,
I'll have to continue to be semi-serious. My scale measures in 0.1g increments.
Checking on Amazon, the scales that give .01g increments won't weigh over 1KG and that's not high enough for my cookware. Lids, yes, but not the pots.
re: DuffyH
OK, 0.1g ought to be enough if that's the true accuracy. I've owned a couple cheap digital scales that *displayed* down to a tenth, but IME that was mostly a feel-good exercise, like my Thermapen knockoff reading in tenths of a degree C/F.
re: kaleokahu
Oh, crap! Just checked and I get 10ths ounces, but whole grams. Ah, well, it is what is is. It's a Polder, got high marks when I bought it many moons ago and I like it a lot.
I'm really pretty confident, about 70%, just wanting some chemist or metallurgist to give me definitive word that with 3 very different metals, only one will act as an anode. This is one of those times when I wish I were still in school. Sadly for our present circumstance, I majored in Zoology and the Dude in Math. We're useless here.
Know any metallurgists?
re: DuffyH
Sorry, I'm just a philosopher.
re: kaleokahu
Couldn't you have studied alchemy or something else useful? ;)
re: DuffyH
kaleokahu "Sorry, I'm just a philosopher."
DuffyH "Couldn't you have studied alchemy or something else useful? ;)"
You two are really silly and it certainly gives me a good giggle to watch (Especially when you two pair up and go back and forth). It lightens the mood on here and it is lovely to have around.
(Sorry if this is too soon) How is the Bubble Bandit working Duffy?
re: KungPaoDumplings
The BB seems to be doing the job. But it is much too soon to know.
It seems that some cookware manufacturers have noticed what's going on in our dishwashers. These are two I recently found when researching their cookware.
Berghoff writes in their General Tips area:
"Before use, clean the pots with a bit of water and detergent (without lemon).
Don't use any detergents based on citric acids to clean the products made of stainless steel (those damage the anti-oxidation layer, which can cause corrosive reactions)"
Bonjour writes in their warranty details:
"Scratches, stains, discoloration, damage caused by automatic dishwasher use or damage caused by overheating is not covered by this warranty."
re: DuffyH
I keep smiling from you, I must be forming dimples.
"The BB seems to be doing the job. But it is much too soon to know."
Are things coming out a satisfactory clean for you still? Or is what you're trying to see is if the BB is also abrasive to aluminum?
"those damage the anti-oxidation layer, which can cause corrosive reactions"
I didn't know that the citric acid was specifically damaging the anti-oxidation layer, that's very interesting.
""Scratches, stains, discoloration, damage caused by automatic dishwasher use or damage caused by overheating is not covered by this warranty.""
I wonder if this is the direction everyone is going to start going.
re: DuffyH
I looked up the Bubble Bandit, not because of the problems of corrosion, but because we have been dissatisfied with the DW detergent we have been using. It turns out that the phosphates have been removed from the DW detergents for home use in Minbesota. I have found a Cascade commercial product that has phosphates. I'm going to buy either BB or the Cascade and see if our DW works better.
On a side note, I recently bought a 10" Tramontina Tri-Ply SS skillet for $7 at a thrift store.
re: John E.
John E,
Since you hand wash your pots and pans, you might want to try Cascade Complete Action Tabs or Finish Powerball Tabs. They'll do an amazing job and are widely available.
I've been using Finish Quantum with excellent results for several years now, and CR just rated those other 2 higher.
On a side note, that's a great buy. :)
re: DuffyH
In what state do you live? I'm in Minnesota and Minnesota is one of 16 states that banned phosphates in dishwasher and laundry detergents in 2010. We had been noticing a white film in our DW and on the dishes as well. We switched brands of DW detergent a couple of times, added rinsing agents (liquid in the dispenser) as well has the hanging little basket. We have not used Finish Quantum.
I also read a report that said that most municipal waste water treatment plants get the phosphates out of the waste water and that phosphates get into lakes from other sources such as fertilizer on suburban lawns and farm fields.
I am either going to order commercial DW detergent online or get my SIL to buy some DW detergents with phosphates in North Dakota. We'll see them in a couple of weeks at a college football game. My nephew is a 6' 4" 315# 3x all-conference defensive tackle. Can you see that I am a proud uncle?
re: John E.
I'm in Florida, which does not have a phosphate ban. After those states banned phosphates, the mfg reformulated and are selling the same stuff in all 50 states. So it doesn't matter where we live, we all get the same crappy detergent.
There are exceptions. Finish Quantum (and presumably the higher rated new Cascade tabs) is really aggressive and works just as well as the old stuff did. They're just death to aluminum.
You've reason to be proud of your nephew. It must be a kick watching him play. :)
re: DuffyH
After many dishwasher cycles using the Commercial Cascade, the results are disappointing. Cooking oil residue is left like tan lamination on saute pans, black marks are left on pots from popping corn, as well as the cooking oil residue used to pop, residue is left on my steamer from steaming hamburgers.
The results are better than the eco products but are nowhere near as good as the power product I was using before. Using the power product, there was never a trace of cooked on oil or steamed in protein.
For the moment, there is no evidence of the trip ply failing with the Commercial Cascade.
re: QueensTomato
Hi, QT:
Did you ever have the edges of your pans ground down to deburr the edges that spawned this symposium on dishwasher detergents?
re: kaleokahu
Hi Kaleokahu,
Yes, I had them repaired since using them with sharp edges was actually hazardous.
Why do you think mfgs leave unsealed edges?
I try to live within my means but if there were tri ply clad with sealed edges (and truly dishwasher safe with no caveats) it would be worth the premium.
re: QueensTomato
Although it is not true for their fry pans or conical pans, Demeyere has sauce pots, Dutch ovens, stock pots, and sauté pans that are all dishwasher safe and have no bared aluminum at all.
re: KungPaoDumplings
Hello KungPaoDumplings,
Are their sauce pots and saute pans tri ply clad?
re: QueensTomato
Without getting into a long explanation (Although if you do want it, just tell me and I will happily give it), the answer to your question is yes.
re: KungPaoDumplings
I thought the saucepans and sautés were disk bottom, with the skillets and sauciers 7-ply clad. Not so?
re: DuffyH
I meant to write to her that they were disk bottom (That being the reason why there is no bared aluminum), not having the advantage of heated sides but perfectly even cooking surface.
This is what Demeyere writes about them:
"For the straight saucepan, pots (pans), soup kettles (pans) and straight sauté pans, Demeyere uses walls of stainless steel, combined with a heat-conducting 7 layer bottom."
re: KungPaoDumplings
In a B&M store in my area I saw some pieces of Spring Brigade "Multiply." It appears to be fully clad with sealed edges. Does this line perform as well as the tri ply clad?
re: QueensTomato
Demeyere works better than most tri ply clad.
re: QueensTomato
Thanks much for mentioning this cookware line. It may be just what we need!
I've been checking out Spring USA's website. This looks like it's their Brigade+ or Primo line. "Brigade Complete" has a rather small-looking disk base.
AFAI can tell, they've only got two clad lines, Primo and Brigade+. Primo has no saucepans, being limited to frypans, sauteuse and sauté pans. Brigade+ does have saucepans.
Both lines are 5-ply, which will in most cases be comparable to or better than tri-ply. Spring uses stainless inside and out, with 3 layers of aluminum sandwich between. They're not telling (nor do most) how thick the layers are. But it's likely plenty thick and solidly made, since these pans are made for the trade, not so much for home use.
Here's a link to their catalog. If the pieces have numbers stamped on the bottom, you can compare them to the catalog to see exactly which line they're from. http://springusacom.siteprotect.net/w...
I've written to find our where I can get them locally. I want to see these. The only saucepans I can find online are the Brigade Complete line.
re: DuffyH
Hi Duffy H,
Thank you for the link. I googled a bit and found that the Spring Primo can be purchased online but it is costly. A 10 inch frying pan w/shipping is about $70. If I purchase more cookware my DH would blow a fuse...
The Brigade I saw looked good (multi ply/sealed rims!) and was not flimsy. A caliper would have been helpful since it seemed a tad thinner than the tri ply. Some user reviews for the Spring would be helpful.
How is your tri ply holding up in the dishwasher?
re: QueensTomato
I've not noticed any changes in my clad stuff yet. I'm concentrating on my new Tramontina saucepan, using it whenever possible. So far, it's built a white passivation layer, but there's been no noticeable loss of aluminum.
I would really like to get my hands on one of those Spring Brigade + pans. It seems like good stuff. I'm going to keep looking.
re: DuffyH
So Duffy : ) I haven't asked in a long time (Sorry that I haven't been on, life got busy): but, how did your detergent tests work out?
Do you recommend Bubble Bandit?
Is there a detergent you do recommend or did this all come back down to the original just don't put unsealed cookware into the dishwasher ever and it must be hand washed?
I hope that you are well,
Kung Pao Ducklings
re: KungPaoDumplings
KPD! Welcome back. :)
After months of testing, I can't recommend Bubble Bandit, it simply doesn't do the job. Dishes are ok, but not sparkling.
Additionally, my zinc slug wasn't losing any weight after the gram or so it lost when it developed it's initial passivation layer. Further research led me to conclude that my zinc would need to be in contact with the aluminum in my pans in order to work. So that's a bust.
My advice now is to hand wash the stuff, or be prepared to live with some loss of metal. I think running a file along the edges once a year would keep them pretty smooth to the touch.
I finally got my new induction range and have replaced all but one of my clad pans, because they were the old Tri-Ply line, which isn't magnetic (the newer Tri-Ply are induction friendly). My new saucepans are Vollrath Optio which have thick disk bottoms and are entirely DW safe.
My son is reaping the benefit and enjoying my old pans very much. He's an amazing cook, and was glad to toss the last of the cheap nonstick pans he and his wife bought when they were newlyweds.
re: DuffyH
Hello Duffy : ) Thank you! It's nice to be back and reading things you, Kaleo, and Sid have been discussing while I've been gone (It's that lovely familiar feeling : ) ).
I'm sorry to hear about the Bubble Bandit, but I can understand why; from the beginning it never seemed to live up to the job enough. I'm glad your standards are so high, it makes me know that you would come down to the truth as you did : ) Would you say that they come out dull from the dishwasher or dull and still dirty/dingy? (I just wanted to clarify).
As for the zinc slug that is a rather interesting find, it really is too bad and certainly disappointing that it had to be in contact with the metal to work.
The file idea is a great piece of advice, thank you for suggesting it. I know I'm most likely going to switch to hand washing my fry pans, but it's certainly nice to have options and ideas.
Congratulations on your range and new saucepans, I'm so happy to hear that you finally have that all set and done! : ) I hope all your new kitchen things work beautifully!
Your son sounds absolutely lovely and it sounds like your cookware couldn't have gone to someone better, it's nice to hear your pride of him : )
re: KungPaoDumplings
<Would you say that they come out dull from the dishwasher or dull and still dirty/dingy? (I just wanted to clarify).>
Just dull. With matte finish or medium to dark stoneware it might not be apparent, but I notice a big difference on my white porcelain, and certainly glassware suffers from no shine. They're clean, but not suitable for the "after" shot in a DW detergent commercial. You know the one, where the actress pulls the glass out of the rack and holds it up to show off it's shine and let he neighbor marvel at how sparkling clean it is.
I think that, in time, you might see a film on your glasses.
re: DuffyH
I see, I certainly see how that is disappointing; I know how much you loved your old detergent and how perfect it was (I'm really glad you have the new cookware to avoid this problem). I am glad they come out clean at least, even if film would probably build on glass (That's what vinegar/lemons are for I guess).
"They're clean, but not suitable for the "after" shot in a DW detergent commercial. You know the one, where the actress pulls the glass out of the rack and holds it up to show off it's shine and let he neighbor marvel at how sparkling clean it is."
That's always the case, isn't it? And the neighbor is either there in their kitchen going "Oh, I didn't believe you, but know I do" because obviously this is what housewives do in their spare time or the shine is so bright that the neighbor is seeing it through the first person's window and it being blinded by it.
re: QueensTomato
There is an amendment to the above post:
The 1.5 qt saucepan is showing signs of what I think is the beginning of aluminum loss. There are some very small pits and a slight, almost imperceptible, depression between the stainless. This pan is used 1-2 times per day - AM oatmeal and evening soup/sauce. This is the most frequently used pan and has been washed in either the eco stuff or Commercial Cascade - no power detergents.
re: QueensTomato
Hi, QT:
OK, one thing to remember about bare aluminum is that its longevity depends on its being able to form a passivation layer. It forms quickly and naturally, but if you (or your DW) scour and polish it away every time it forms, *of course* you're going to suffer corrosion. Aluminum builds its own "anti-rust" coating, but when you remove it, guess what? It "rusts" some more trying to keep up.
As to *why* the makers leave unsealed edges, it all comes down to money and price.
At some point, one has to reconsider DWing their cookware, rather than trimming their pans or resorting to the black market for phosphate-free detergents to skirt the law. I'm habituated to hand-washing everything in my kitchen, so I don't completely understand the gyrations involved with changing everything *except* the DW. I guess I'm a Luddite.
re: kaleokahu
Hi Kaleo,
<At some point, one has to reconsider DWing their cookware, rather than trimming their pans or resorting to the black market for phosphate-free detergents to skirt the law. ...I don't completely understand the gyrations involved...>
The experiment itself takes essentially no time, just a few seconds for me to weigh the zinc once a day. But when all is said and done, if I'd simply thrown up my hands and begun hand washing my pots, then found out later that all I had to do was change detergent and/or toss a piece of metal into the basket.... well, I'd be kicking myself. So it's not costing me anything, not even time, to play around with the concept. It's not really as bad as the "gyrations" you describe.
If it doesn't work, then I'll have to decide between hand washing and switching to disk cookware, which shouldn't have any exposed aluminum. Most of that stuff should be fine in the DW.
Black market? Amazon? LOL! Florida has no ban, so I'm perfectly legal. 0:)
re: DuffyH
Hi, Duffy:
I was responding to QT (trimmed pans now re-corroding).
I actually laud your experiment. IT isn't a gyration--at least not a big one.
What I *do* consider gyrations are sustained attempts to put the DWer ahead of the cookware. My perspective is that if you have stuff you like, you do what you need to do to take care of it.
Hard water spots...[head explodes] How are you avoiding THOSE in the DW? Another chemical product? Don't tell me you're using a "dry" cycle that heats the kitchen and burdens your AC! ;)
re: kaleokahu
<Hard water spots...[head explodes] How are you avoiding THOSE in the DW? Another chemical product? Don't tell me you're using a "dry" cycle that heats the kitchen and burdens your AC! ;)>
Yup, I run the drying cycle. My Bosch doesn't heat the kitchen up at all. It's quite well insulated, as are most high end units today. You've got to touch the door to feel any heat at all, then it's just mild warmth. It's not one of those nasty old things that belch hot steam out into the room. :)
I REALLY hate the hard water deposits. Serious hatred here.
<What I *do* consider gyrations are sustained attempts to put the DWer ahead of the cookware. My perspective is that if you have stuff you like, you do what you need to do to take care of it.>
I can see that logic. Cleaning is one of the things I'm factoring into my decision-making, at least for my pots. Disks may be the way to go after all. Then I can run any old detergent I like and not worry about ruining my pots. With saucepans being the least finicky items I'll buy, it could make sense.
I'm running the Tramontina 4 quart with the zinc and my favorite Finish Quantum right now. I do admit that I'd feel better about the whole thing if I could ask a chemist about running a de facto battery with 3 metals.
re: kaleokahu
When responding to KPD's query about how I prep pots for the DW now, it occurred to me, finally, what it is that makes me hate hand washing my pots. It's water spots.
We've got really hard water, so for my frypans, if I want them to look decent, I not only hand wash them, but I dry them, too. and I've got to do it quickly and thoroughly, basically polishing them, to avoid water spots. Setting them in the dish rack is 100% going to result in dull, ugly, completely water-spotted pans.
I don't care if they're scratched up (they are), have the odd ding (one does) or have some baked-on oil on the bottom exterior (they do), but I do want them to be spot-free and look clean, not dull. I don't display mine, it's just for me.
re: QueensTomato
Is it possible (help me out here, Kaleo) that what appears to be damage on your small saucepan is in fact the passivation layer Kaleo discussed? My zinc slug began life as a dull, but smooth, silver-ish thing.
It's now more dull, less silver, more flat gray, with very rough white deposits of some salt. And of course, it's lost a gram of weight. But importantly, it doesn't appear to be changing right now. It's weight and appearance are stable.
It could be that the BB detergent is only somewhat harmful to it and it will take a long time to erode it beyond it's current state, but it could also be non-corrosive. Could that be the case with Cascade?
You might be able to find out. Maybe use a Sharpie to mark some of the worst-looking areas, take pictures, then take more pics in a week or two, see if there are any changes.
re: DuffyH
Hello DuffyH,
I don't think it is anything other than loss of aluminum since I can feel a slight depression between the SS and there are definite small pits.
Why were you going to return your 4qt saucepan to Walmart?
Restaurants use aluminum. How is it that their gear stands up to washing?
re: QueensTomato
<I can feel a slight depression between the SS and there are definite small pits.>
Ouch! That does sound like loss of metal. :(
<Why were you going to return your 4qt saucepan to Walmart?>
I wasn't sure I was ready to commit to it yet. I'm still not 100% sold, but I figure if it starts to lose metal, that's reason enough to return it, since it's sold as DW safe.
<Restaurants use aluminum. How is it that their gear stands up to washing?>
I think they use a steam washer. That, and they don't buy stuff to last.
re: QueensTomato
I'm sorry the Commercial Cascade is so disappointing, I hope you have better luck with what you choose next (The Bubble Bandit seems to be doing a good job).
Thank you for continuing to keep things updated here, it's been helping me out immensely!
re: QueensTomato
That's disappointing, to say the least. Even more so considering it seems you're giving up cleaning power and stilling (possibly) damaging your pans. That sucks.
BB seems to be working, but that comes with a big qualifier because I'm using it with pans that are already damaged, so weight is the only way to know if they get worse, AND I'm using a zinc slug. this could take forever to give a definitive answer. In any event, the zinc is holding at 202g with a decent passivation layer (tip o' the hat to Kaleo for putting a name to the white salty stuff it's grown). Cleaning results are decent, good even, but just not stellar. The dishes and glassware are fine, but the pans take a bit more prep work than with my regular detergent. I miss it.
So I'm going to modify the test. The Dude reminded me I had a brand new Tramontina saucepan boxed up, waiting to be returned to Walmart. I've decided to test it with the zinc slug and my favorite Finish Quantum. You know how aggressive it is, and any changes should be apparent quickly. I'll begin by running the zinc without any pans, to see how it reacts.
re: DuffyH
"Cleaning results are decent, good even, but just not stellar. The dishes and glassware are fine, but the pans take a bit more prep work than with my regular detergent. I miss it."
This is a shame to hear (Although I'm glad you're still considering it good), what kind of prep work do you have to do for the pans to get them clean from the dishwasher?
"So I'm going to modify the test. The Dude reminded me I had a brand new Tramontina saucepan boxed up, waiting to be returned to Walmart. I've decided to test it with the zinc slug and my favorite Finish Quantum. You know how aggressive it is, and any changes should be apparent quickly. I'll begin by running the zinc without any pans, to see how it reacts."
This sounds very exciting, it sounds like this is going to produce some very clear results. Thank you for doing this!
re: KungPaoDumplings
<what kind of prep work do you have to do for the pans to get them clean from the dishwasher?>
I've got to make sure there's nothing really crusty, no whitish protein residue in them, especially as from browning ground meats. With my old detergent, I could mostly just toss them in and they'd come out good gorgeous.
re: DuffyH
I keep checking every time you make me smile to see if dimples are forming, but my face just isn't taking them. I'll have to keep trying.
I'm sorry to hear that it isn't as good as what you used to use, it's certainly going to be interesting seeing what wins in the end of all of this. Again, thank you for running this new test as well; it sounds like a winner!
Thread Bump. Paging Duffy.
I recall this thread and Duffy's post.
New dishwasher coming in. Granted , I think DW detergent is subjective to the dishwasher, load times, water temp, soft versus hard, etc - and experinces may vary.
So far, I've loved using my Somat tabs
I'm going to give pickup the Quantums with Gel and Quantums wth H20 (I presume it's just some variant of Sodium Percarbonate).
Duffy. What DW detergent are you running these days. Any *new* powders/tabs you have tried since these OP
re: chefwong
Hi chefwong,
What? Quantum has new stuff? Cue Dylan, times are changing!
Right now I'm using Cascade Action pacs. They've got detergent, rinse aid and another blue thing, all in one. You've likely seen them, a swirly pac? Got them on sale at Sam'sClub. They're not the top line, but 2-3 down, I think.
They do not work as well as the Quantum. I've got to make sure there's nothing really ugly left on the dishes. Messy is ok, but dried egg or cheese, things that act like joint compound, that's bad.
I've also been grabbing some freebees, but all onesie-twosie, so there's not enough time to see if they're good long term.
Still, nothing I've seen has convinced me that I shouldn't buy my old Quantum when this box of Cascade pacs is gone. Maybe a really killer deal on the top end Cascade, but that otherwise not so much.
re: DuffyH
Old DW died. New 23 minute full cycle DW on it's way YAY. No more 2 hr cycles for me.
My current rotation is Somat tabs, followed by Quantum - with Bandit Buddy I'm slowly using up....
Tabs are out of the question with the new DW. So back to powder and figuring out which will work..
I'm not a fan of the BB, but picked up 2 bags when I saw the whole *phosphates blog*.
BTW, tons of peoples also like the Method Smarty tabs
re: chefwong
What DW are you getting?
re: DuffyH
Miele 8083
My previous Miele needed a repair that I was not going to spend putting $$ into a *old car*, although I was not expecting it on a 6-7 year old machine
re: chefwong
Cool beans. Miele's are excellent, as you know so well.
re: DuffyH
Sorry, I never answered your question.
There is Quantum with *gel*.
There is also a newer quantum with the #power and free# , I suspect it's not as strong as regular quantum, but does not have that bleach smell.
Slowly, they are figuring out how to make phosphate free detergents work as good as the old stuff.


text:
(MyFoxBoston.com) -- The word dubbed the year's best by Oxford Dictionary is now facing exile thanks to an annual list compiled by a Michigan school."Selfie" topped Lake Superior State University's 39th annual list of banished words. The list is made up entirely of words nominated by voters.Oxford Dictionary defines it best, a selfie is "a photograph that one has taken of oneself, typically one taken with a smart phone or webcam and uploaded to a social media website."The school's website was abuzz with comments shortly after the list's release. One comment from a woman named Lisa described the word as too "selfie-serving."Miley Cyrus would be less than pleased with the word that came in second. The dance known as twerking took silver behind selfie.Here is the complete list from Lake Superior State University:— Selfie— Twerk/twerking— Hashtag— Twittersphere— Mr. Mom— T-Bone— On steroids— -ageddon— -pocalypse— Intellectually/morally bankrupt— Obamacare— Adversity (as a sports reference)— Fan base
25 FOX DriveDedham, MA 02026
Phone (781) 467-2525

subset: commoncrawl


text:
and will vary among organisms, with some coping well and others not at all. The long-term consequences of ocean acidification for marine biota are unknown, but changes in many ecosystems and the services they provide to society appear likely based on current understanding (Raven et al., 2005).
In response to these concerns, Congress requested that the National Research Council conduct a study on ocean acidification in the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Reauthorization Act of 2006. The Committee on the Development of an Integrated Science Strategy for Ocean Acidification Monitoring, Research, and Impacts Assessment is charged with reviewing the current state of knowledge and identifying key gaps in information to help federal agencies develop a program to improve understanding and address the consequences of ocean acidification (see Box S.1 for full statement of task). Shortly after the study was underway, Congress passed another law—the Federal Ocean Acidification Research and Monitoring (FOARAM) Act of 2009—which calls for, among other things, the establishment of a federal ocean acidification program; this report is directed to the ongoing strategic planning process for such a program.
Although ocean acidification research is in its infancy, there is already growing evidence of changes in ocean chemistry and ensuing biological impacts. Time-series measurements and other field data have documented the decrease in ocean pH and other related changes in seawater chemistry (Dore et al., 2009). The absorption of anthropogenic CO2 by the oceans increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in seawater (quanti-
Statement of Task
Among the many potential direct and indirect impacts of greenhouse gas emissions (particularly CO2) and global warming, this study will examine the anticipated consequences of ocean acidification due to rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels on fisheries, protected species, coral reefs, and other natural resources in the United States and internationally. The committee will recommend priorities for a national research, monitoring, and assessment plan to advance understanding of the biogeochemistry of carbon dioxide uptake in the ocean and the relationship to atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide, and to reduce uncertainties in projections of increasing ocean acidification and the potential effects on living marine resources and ocean ecosystems. The committee's report will: