text:
Hang in there, Hawks fans. We'll make it through this summer yet (or so I keep telling myself, anyway).
While things seem fairly quiet in free agency, and that would be for all NBA teams at the moment, a few tidbits are floating around that may prove to be a useful diversion for a minute or two. As we discuss those, I keep thinking about the missing Lorenzen Wright. Missing persons cases more often than not are either a false alarm, or they don't end very nicely. But some do. And I hope that this is one of those where "all's well that ends well." Peace and blessings on his family, who I'm sure are sick with worry. These kinds of things never seem to matter to people until they hit close to home. Again, I hope this ends well.
Tough Times
As much noise as we make about adding size and toughness to the roster, do we bother to consider that adding toughness doesn't always mean adding a body? When the official announcement of the signing of former Lakers forward/center Josh Powell finally came down, one of the catch phrases was that he "adds toughness." Well, if the Lakers say he's a good guy and a good addition, I'll take their word for it, at least to an extent. After all, Powell hasn't played many minutes in L.A., so we don't have a lot of visual evidence to review (other than some youtube clips) for confirmation. But what about the guys who were already on the roster? Can't you add toughness….by simply becoming tougher?
If you ask me (and you didn't, but guess what?) toughness is a state of mind. The body can be willing and able, but it's no good if the spirit is weak. Avid Hawks fan and blogger Northcyde is one of the foremost fans calling for two of our key guys (Al Horford and Josh Smith) to play a lot tougher, as the success of this team depends heavily on that. Realistically, that can be the key difference between competing at the highest levels, or struggling to do so. Look no further than last season's first round playoff series. The Hawks struggled mightily when Al Horford allowed himself to get out-toughed by Kurt Thomas, and Josh Smith allowed Ersan Ilyasova to out-hustle and outplay him for stretches at a time.
So what can the Hawks do to get tougher? What are Josh Smith and Marvin Williams doing to get tougher. Those are two guys who could really have an impact on the game if they bring it with more force. In fact, that's the one thing that can really optimize a lineup of long, athletic players. Without it, much is wasted.
How does one change one's mindset? Different people have different methods. And sometimes the body has to be brought up to speed with the mind. The idea is to be tough all the time, not just when backed into a corner and forced into "fight or flight" mode. Well, it seems one Hawk is going to give it a go in the offseason. As noted on NBA.com (on the Atlanta Hawks official site), backup center Zaza Pachulia has added to his offseason regimen, and the results might be more than just better conditioning, footwork, and overall stamina. It might just result in a tougher approach to the game. All I can say is watch out Kevin Garnett! I still love that moment in Hawks history…
The "other" Star Guard
According to ESPN.com, Hawks super sub Jamal Crawford would like to discuss money matters. He wants to remain a Hawk, and I'm sure any Hawks spokesperson would likely state that they would like to keep him around. And while Jamal has been around the league for a decade (and been with several teams), he may as well get comfortable wherever he is sitting. After all, things don't tend to happen around the front office at lightning speed. Especially if they don't really have to. The question is, do the Hawks want him to finish out his career in Atlanta? Might they see him as a two way asset, or has he proven himself to be indispensable? Jamal seemed to fit in pretty darn well, and that is not likely to change under new head coach Larry Drew. But, if the Hawks are very slow or otherwise noncommittal to signing him to an extension, what might it be an indication of? Of course, a number of theories could abound. Understandably, they may be more focused on preparing an extension offer to Al Horford. Or, they may have other moves up their sleeve. You just never know. But, for the sake of the sanity of blogger Steve Brown, I won't mention one of the most obvious and talked about (by others, not just me) possibilities.
In the meantime, I wish I could be an invisible fly on the wall in training camp. If for no other reason than to watch Jamal Crawford playing against Jordan Crawford. That would have to be a fun matchup, no?
July 28th, 2010
11:11 am
Thanks for the info
July 28th, 2010
11:20 am
One blogger mentioned how the Hawks play to the excitement of the crowd. I have noticed this as well. Certainly brining in Shaq will bring in more fans which, in turn, will bring more excitement to the home games. The Hawks feasted at home, but they need to grow in their mental toughness on the road; especially in hostile playoff enviornments. This might be too 'old school' but the only way I know to build mental toughness is lining up for suicides after practice.
July 28th, 2010
11:33 am
I still think the addition of Shaq would not have been a horrible move by our team.
July 28th, 2010
11:37 am
That toughness thing is part of that "attitude adjustment" I talked about in one of your previous blogs. This is a mentally weak bunch as it is and that is what limits them moreso that their perceived lack of size. Not backing down from a physical challenge is an aspect of mental toughness but so is:
- Playing through bad calls (Josh)
- Staying aggressive and asserting yourself somehow to infulence the outcome of the game (Marvin)
- Taking criticism/instruction from your coach or a teamate without talking back or ignoring it (everyone)
- Resolving yourself to battle when you are down, the home crowd is not behind you, and/or when you seem to be over matched by the opposition (The Hawks need to treat L.A., Orlando, and Miami like they do the Celtics)
- Focusing on defense and not just scoring (Bibby, Crawford)
- Stomping on the lesser teams as opposed to overlooking them
- Someone, anyone, showing some real leadership when things are good as well as bad
If this team can make significant gains in their mental toughness, that will help the more than any of those free agents that were out there.
July 28th, 2010
11:46 am
Ray, good stuff and thought-provoking questions (the kind I prefer). I'm not sure that you can teach toughness. I suppose that if our frontline practiced during the summer against guys like Magloire, Kurt Thomas, Joel Anthony and Ron Artest, they may learn how to handle toughness when it comes their way, but I doubt that would turn them into bullies when they face off against others. I have long said that the Hawks are "teddy bear with a pink ribbon" soft. I don't think that organic growth will change that. Ty Hill was on the far side of soft as a player and he hasn't been able to impart any of his brute-nature on our bigs (and I suspect that he has tried). If the Hawks want to get tough, they need their GM to fix it, not their coaching staff.
July 28th, 2010
11:53 am
Good blog, Ray, and GREAT comment by Willie Coyote.
July 28th, 2010
11:56 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Al Horford Fans, Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham said: AJC's fan blog: Hawks bits and pieces http://bit.ly/9tegI5 [...]
July 28th, 2010
12:11 pm
*[reposted from previous blog]*
R.I.P. Harry Galbreath:
Passed away @ 48 years young.
I coached him in Little League baseball 38 years ago.
Mrs. Grandad taught his sister in 2nd grade.
He was a great youngster and grew into a fine man.
Played fb @ U of Tn. / went on to a distinguished professional career.
My prayers are with his family.
"And we know that all things are working together for good to those
who love God, and according to his purpose." Rom. 8:28
July 28th, 2010
12:33 pm
Bring him back, but be cost efficient about it…oh wait, never mind…these are the Hawks I'm talking about….feast or famine, bob spammit….
July 28th, 2010
12:57 pm
Will they get tougher because coach says "get tough"?
I think bringing in a player who is known for toughness, and one who is not afraid to get in his teammates face is needed. Along those lines, I wonder who was Al's and Josh's favorite player growing up.
As for Jordan Crawford vs Jamal Crawford, I think Jamal knows too many veteran moves, so I think he will make Jordan Crawford look like a rookie.
And I would be surprised if the Hawks give Jamal an extension for a number of reasons.
1) what is his market value? Hawks dont usually bid against themselves
2) New CBA, probably lower salaries
3) Jordan Crawford has the potential to be Jamal Crawford in a couple years
July 28th, 2010
12:57 pm
Yeah, great stuff Willie. But I'd add that some of your items, and others not listed, are a result of stupidity and ego.
July 28th, 2010
1:00 pm
Tuff – Stuff!
Mike Bibby is Super-Tuff! He called out the Celtic Fans and backed it up! Causing Zsa-Zsa to stare down the "Green Monster" in Prime-Time National TV on ABC! That's Super Tuff-Stuff right there!
Joe Johnson is the Tuffest of them ALL! He gets whacked and hacked unbelievably and just man-up to get back on defense. It takes 1000 times more character to get back on defense than to cry about a bad call!
That is the paramount example of Mental Tuffness – it takes a real man to do that!
Al Horford is Super Duper Tuff! He battles the BIGS night in and night out and never complains about getting whacked either!
Problem is outside of Jamal Crawford, the Bench and Marvin are Not so Tuff at all!
Maurice shows more Tuffness than Marvin has in 6 years combined! Marvin is aloof and seems dis-interested at most times!
Along with Tuffness, we need a sound game plan on both sides of the ball, one that the players can buy into!
We have yet to see that, hopefully that will change with Coach Drew!
We NEED: Change we can BELIEVE in!
July 28th, 2010
1:04 pm
I think Marvin's contract will put the Hawks at a disadvantage when negotiating for Crawford's contract. Its no reason Crawford should make over 5-6 million next season. However, when the Hawks were willing to pay Marvin 7-8 mil annually, how could they not be willing to pay Crawford the same.
I wonder will Sund consider adding Stackhouse now. And I hope the Hawks do at least offer Shaq's camp 3.2 Mil to come and play for the Hawks.
July 28th, 2010
1:07 pm
Big Ray;
On the toughness issue, I have always felt that a team takes on the personality of their coach.
Having said that, one must 1st mention Woodson [not to slander] but for comparison. Woodson
had the personna [publicly, @ least] that he was a big bad guy. Thus, one would expect his teams to play "tough", not so. Ld, then must put his stamp on the team immediately, in that regard.
"A person only gets one chance to make a first impression" Therefore, how LD comes out of the gate will determine the personality of the Hawks for now & in the future of LD's tenure.
This is somewhat for Rev in Tampa *[but I remain on topic] for all
Teaching toughness:
Having coached, I know for a fact that you can teach toughness to a degree. One cannot take a sissy and turn him into Charles Oakley but if the raw material *[Heart] is there then it can be molded.
I'm certain that J&A can become hard-nosed players. In my last year of coaching, I had a group of fine young men who were terrific athletes & fun to coach in every way. However, they all had soft
upbringings. In order for them to reach their potential, I knew they needed something to harden them up a bit.
"The Hill"
200+ yards uphill grade.
8 sprints
groups of 4 *(competition added)
*ea. team of 4 was timed by the last man on team.
*team had to achieve pre-set minimum times.
*failure to achieve = simple, do over. **(vomitus maximus)
followed by pre-season wgt training regimen.
Oh yeah / August & September
We, and I say we [Team] attributed "the Hill" as being an integral part of our season.
We called it Team building but I suspect a little *Mental toughness* was garnered as well.
Rev – I was a bit ol' school but I loved my players & protected them. [*hydration*]+
I look for LD to recognize then actuate accordingly.
July 28th, 2010
1:23 pm
Kellen Winslow is Tuff! He don't give a damn about nobody but the "U"!
Ron Artest is TESTY and TUFF! He ran into the stands and was willing to fight 15 thousand fanatics – All by himself! Or, is that the quintessential example of CRAZY? OK, then, he was just Crazy & Tuff!
Dennis Rodman was Tuff and extremely Intelligent! His every step was a calculated move – including and especially where to go to get that rebound! He knew where the ball would be, before the ball knew where it was at!
Tuff-Guys are the Role-Players! They enter the game for one reason! To make a statement:
1. You will NOT dribble past me! (Artest)
2. You will NOT dunk it or lay it up past me! (Howard)
3. You will NOT stop me! (Kobe)
4. You will NOT rebound over my back! (Howard)
5. You will NOT embarrass me! (Wade)
6. You will NOT impose your will upon me! (Kobe)
7. You will NOT talk about my Mamma! (Artest)
8. You will NOT bang my Mamma! (DeLonte). smh
9. Without ME? There is NO You! (LeBron)
Bad Boys Pistons, come to mind?
July 28th, 2010
1:32 pm
Grandad, I played and started both ways for Palmetto High School (southwest of Atlanta) during our run of state championships (Palmetto has since been enfolded into Creekside High School). Our coach used to make us run 'catepillars' at the end of practice (to describe them would be difficult). Coach Taylor had a way of pushing us beyond what we thought capable, but they were rarely punishments, but obstacles to overcome. And by overcoming, he was able subtly to communicate to us that we could overcome anything. He wouldn't let us hit full speed during practice because we would hurt each other (since no team could out hit us). We went into other team's stadiums knowing that we owned them and would destroy them. We looked to Thurston Taylor as a father figure in many respects.
All that to ask, how can a coach teach toughness to a professional? High schoolers and college players are easy to motivate. When the Hawks are playing emotionally they can beat anybody, but when they are flat they are really flat.
July 28th, 2010
1:46 pm
We tend to think a role player is a bench player. I beg to differ, a role player is a leader who sets the standard, sets the tables, makes a statement – and is the Back-Bone of a team and the reason they WIN!
The role of a Super-Star is to Provide the team an IDENTITY for all others to recognize.
(Clear Image)
I disagree! Joe Johnson is a Super Tuff Guy! He just does it without Grand-Standing! I hear that it was JOE
and NOT Woodson:
1. Who called out Josh (NOT so TUFF at ALL! IMHO) for Parroting Joakim Noah and saying, "Everybody knows there is nothing to do in Milwaukee!".
Joe retorted, in so many words …. How about winning a damned basketball game?
And, why stir up the fan base and their opponent?
It was Joe, who called out Josh for ordering a Limousine Motor-Cade to dilly-dally in Chi-Town!
That's where all the chemistry issues arose from, it was that Milwaukee Series for real!
Josh was THE problem! Josh is NOT TUFF! He is quite immature and always has been!
Having said that, I love what Josh brings to the team, he just need to Pipe-Down and Grow-Up!
But, Blu-Ray, Joe is Tuff! He got the Fattest Contract this off-season (NOT LeBron), Joe is a TUFF negotiator!
He is the Millionaire Next-Door – who lives in a 3BR – 1BA Ranch o a quiet street, who drives a Buick LeSabre!
He is Japanese Tuff! Quiet but Deadly! Sneaky-Strong and Invisible!
July 28th, 2010
1:53 pm
I like the Powell signing, and would like to see a similar signing in Jawad Williams to back up Marvin…As a 6′9″ SF that has worked hard to become a good defender because everyone told him he couldn't, I think he could be a solid addition to the bench…Similar career path to Powell, in that he played D-League, overseas, and finally in NBA…Teammates and coaches love him (just like Powell & Lakers)…Lebron even tried to recruit him to Miami this summer…But he's a restricted free agent, and Cleveland could match, and that is his hometown team.
July 28th, 2010
1:56 pm
Hey Ray, the ASG sold Jamal on being the SMOY when he was traded for. And, he bought into it. And, it worked. However, the HC played to that promise and set him up with playing time to accomplish the accolade. Had Woodson, sat him or buried his azz on the bench, he would have been as invisible as Teague.
But, to the contrary, Jamal was set up to be the SMOY and, Jamal answered the Bell! So, give him credit for buying in and performing.
"He who rocks the cradle – Rules the World!".
Will Drew, rock the cradle? Or will the Inmates run the assylum?
Do you feel me?
July 28th, 2010
2:08 pm
Come On! Let's fight clean! What's your 10-20? Come Back …..
July 28th, 2010
2:10 pm
(50″ Plasma Sony)
I'm on FIRE!
Is JOE TUFF?
July 28th, 2010
2:12 pm
You cannot teach toughness to professionals *[necessarily] but one of my points was that a team,
any team will take on the personality / mind-set of their Coach. A Coach who is worth his salt will grab hold of his team no matter how old they are and make them his own. I do agree that a couple of good soldiers in the ranks makes his job easier. Al is one & from everything I've read Josh Powell
is another. JP is a hard-nosed practice player that will knock your sox off durin' practice. That's why players of that ilk [Rodman,per M.E.] are so important. Both starters & role players. I suspect JP may have found his niche in ATL. As with LD, the Jack-ASG may have gotten lucky with the frugal [ahem] signing of young Mr. Powell.
July 28th, 2010
2:16 pm
(50″ Plasma Sony)
LeBron ran like a gurl!
JOE walked away from: Nash, Amare, The Matrix (their BIG THREE!). To see IF HE could carry a team?
And, he did, He carried the Hawks on his Quiet Back for 5 Years! Why should he play for less?
He Came.
We Saw.
Hw was Measured.
And, He was NOT lacking!
He came Nowhere …. Won 13 games and Won 53 games …. And. ……
He Got Paid! (Stop Crying Broke Jiggas!)
Now What?
July 28th, 2010
2:31 pm
Mary Ellen:
Joe is physically tough but he is also an introvert. Therefore, he does not necessarily transfer that
toughness to his teammates. Joe leads by example, whereby, a true leader [Kobe, KG, Billups]
have unique, unto themselves, methods to transfer their message.
July 28th, 2010
2:40 pm
So, JOE, doesn't scream and yell and get in your face. But, neither does Tony Dungy.
July 28th, 2010
2:45 pm
I wonder how JJ and Bibby was affected by woody's favoritism.
With drew's pledge of accountability, that should open up communication lines between the players too.
July 28th, 2010
2:49 pm
Although Tony dungy was not a screamer, he did more than 'lead by example'.
He was always talking and communicating instructions to his players. How often did u see Joe gather the troops on the court? Or during a timeout?
The problem is not that Joe isn't a screamer. The problem is the impression I get is that he does not talk at all. All he does is go about his business.
July 28th, 2010
2:52 pm
Wow! Wow! What an astute observation? I never thought about how it affects a player to be favored amongst his team-mates?
That makes the favored player – hated! Player-Hated by Default!!
Players just want to be treated fairly … That's All.
Great Point of View! How did it make JJ & Bibby feel?
O'Brien, You are a Man on Fire!
July 28th, 2010
2:58 pm
it's my experience that people who use words like "favoritism" are victims and losers. At least everyone in a corporate setting who ever cried that the cboss was playing favorites was essentially saying "I'm a loser and can;t figure out how to play the game so i am going to whine and play the blame game".
Ray, the Bucks were resilient and played as a team, but I'm not sure that they were TOUGH. Thomas and Mbah a Moute, certainly. Let's face it, the Bucks (and Skiles) were loose going into the series as they had ZERO expectations on them. They were there for the learning experience due in large part to Bogut's late season injury. When they were faced with the burden of an arena full of expectations (Game 6 in Milwaukee), they didn't appear too tough… they folded in the bright lights. Again, a great learning experience. I honestly think they were the benfactors of playing without expectations AND the unraveling of the Hawks locker-room.
July 28th, 2010
3:34 pm
I don't see where so many people get the false idea that Shaq brings toughness. The biggest knock on him when he was with the Magic, Lakers and Heat was his unwillingness to play hurt. Toughness is AIverson, who's known for playing through serious injuries and pain throughout his career. Shaq, on the other hand, has allowed injuries like sprained thumbs, fingers and wrists to sideline him numerous times throughout his career.
Whatever Shaq might bring to the Hawks if we sign him, it certainly won't be toughness. Also, while some people think JJohnson isn't tough, he certainly demonstrated his toughness by refusing to run from the team he failed in the playoffs, or the fans who tried to crucify him for making that ill advised statement in a moment of frustration.
On the other hand, we've seen LJames, who's considered by many as tough, run off the floor and hide after a playoff elimination. We just witnessed him run from the Cavaliers to the Heat to seek the help of DWade and CBosh, as well as the cushion they can provide if he fails to deliver again.
There's inner toughness, and there's outer toughness. JJ has a lot of inner toughness, but he's also tough on the outside. He chooses to remain calm and concentrate on the gm, rather than make an issue of a bad call. LeBron, on the other hand, has a lot of outer toughness, but obviously lacks inner toughness. To me, the player that exhibited equal combinations of both was Alonzo Mourning. He wasn't the biggest, strongest, tallest, meanest, maddest or most talented, just the toughest.
We have fans who complain about JSmith always arguing calls, and getting distracted. Then we have these same fans complaining about JJohnson not arguing calls, and not becoming distracted. WHERE'S THE LOGIC?
July 28th, 2010
3:55 pm
the hawks need to get shaq for the 4 million mid level exception, shaq wil immediatley make our starting lineup the forth best team in the east and a real contender once the playoffs come around. Our starting lineup should be jamal at point joe at two josh at 3 al 4 and shaq 5, that lineup can play with any team in the east. marvin as the 6th man and bibby, jeff, mo off the bench. I hope the hawks get shaq he will bring some more excitement around the hawks and atlanta
July 28th, 2010
3:56 pm
Enter your comments here
July 28th, 2010
4:07 pm
Nevertheless, accountability should bring the team closer.
Ken S,
I would not rely on shaq for toughness either. But he is a legit big who commands a double team sometimes, still gets Respect from the refs, and is a good passer.
Plus he would allow al to spend some time at PF depending on matchups.
And if we did sign him, we would have to keep him out of some back to back games to preserve him (like Phoenix did, like spurs do with Duncan).
July 28th, 2010
4:08 pm
REV IN TAMPA AND WILLIE COYOTE-you're comments were excellent. Some teams have a player, or players, that are talented and skilled enough to defeat teams that offer little resistance(no DEF). But when they encounter teams that do offer resistance(good DEF), they usually need something else to help that individual talent and skill(an effective OFF system).
When the Hawks encountered a team that didn't allow them to out run, jump or shoot them, the players were forced to rely on ISO's, because they simply didn't have a structured OFF to rely on. When you look at teams like the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs and Pistons, who've dominated the NBA championships over the last 10-15yrs, you'll see they have structured OFF systems their players can rely on when individual talent and skill aren't enough.
This season will be the 1st in the last 6yrs that Hawk players will actually have a structured half court OFF to rely on. No more total reliance on ISO's when DEF's prevent our individual players from doing what they do best. I see that as a major improvement. Also, I see the addition of PF JPowell as another improvement, because this means we won't have a major dropoff if JSmith is lost or has to sit for a prolonged period, like in the past. He should be able to provide more of the consistent rebounding AHorford said was needed on the front line.
July 28th, 2010
4:16 pm
DRMARYB-some of our fans are ruled by wishful thinking and fantasy, when it comes to who they want on the Hawks. Your very insightful medical report on CPaul's medical issues should put a lot of those fans dreams and fantasies to rest, though I doubt it will stop some of them from continuing to dream out loud.
July 28th, 2010
4:32 pm
OB, for the players who want equal accountability, then yes, Drew's management of accountability will fix that issue. But if guys are just looking for an excuse to justify their lack of playing time, their inability to connect with the coach or to give voice to some other beef, they will find yet another issue to b-tch about. IMO, the word "favoritism" should not be used by anyone older than 12 years old. When you become a teenager, that word should be removed from your vocabulary. Seriously, if your best friend said "my boss is playing favorites at work" wouldn't you think that you just stepped back into middle school?
July 28th, 2010
4:40 pm
daniel stabcdefgski (soory dude, had to do it), your suggestion that Jamal run the point is a fascinating thought. If he could run the offense, penetrate the paint, pass the ball, and bring his shooting threat… WOW! But the point is a very specialized position – probably the most specialized position. If he could run the point effectively, he would be running the point.
July 28th, 2010
4:42 pm
The Hawks are already the 4th best team in the East.
With Cleveland's attrition = the fact that we match up well
with the Celts [exit Thibodeau] why are we not # two.
Obviously we must show we can defeat Orl. to surpass
them but until then we are 2nd & no worse than 3rd.
Others must prove they have passed us. Names on
paper have not played a game.
What's funny to me is folks will say LD has not proven
anything yet. Well, what has young fella in Myame proven?
People say what if Josh or Al suffer an injury, we have no depth.
No one has crossed that bridge in south beach either. What if ?
D.Wade has been injured before. So has Bosh.
Goodness gracious sakes alive…all those people predicting;
not 1, not 2, but 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 championships. Wow, all those
guys are indesructable plus they don't even need a coach.
Never mind, I'm sorry, I went on an uncontrolled rant.
July 28th, 2010
4:47 pm
Rev – checkmate:
A point guard is more than a skill set;
dribbling & passing.
A point guard is in the head and in the heart.
July 28th, 2010
4:52 pm
You were right, Astro, apparently the Hawks Drew didn't have the same number of full-time assistants as Woody did. But now he does:
July 28th, 2010
4:56 pm
Not good new on Lorenzen…
July 28th, 2010
5:05 pm
Thanks, next drink is on me!
July 28th, 2010
5:28 pm
Ray, keep in mind, Skiles' tenure with the Bucks and how he crashed and burned in Chicago. Maybe he learned his lesson in Chicago, we'll see in another 2-3 seasons.
Ray, we all have bosses and i think anyone in any profession who complains about a boss playing favorites is simply admitting that they are losing the game and are too victimized to figure out how to compete. That's a loser's mentality (IMO) and I have little patience for that in my life.
nire, wow, did you just say that I was right about something that you previously said I was wrong about? Call 911, I'm abouit to pass out.
Now when did Gattison retire? I brought it up the other day in hopes that Drew would hire someone with a little more relatability with today's players. I had suggested giving someone like Darrell Armstrong a shot (or even Ty Lue). Gattison, I think, is a little older.
July 28th, 2010
5:51 pm
RIP Lorenzen Wright.
This team under Coach Drew should have no excuses. Sund and the ASG did not make many moves, which leads me to believe that they believe Woody was the problem (directly and indirectly).
So it will be interesting to see how players respond.
July 28th, 2010
5:53 pm
Toughness is contagious
It must be a main characteristic of the ALFA male or female on the team(The reason I want Horford to be Captain). Horford is not the most skilled or athletic players on this team, but he is defined by his toughness. When he is made Capatin, it will send a message to the team about the importants of toughness. His teammates will consciously or subconsciously begin to imitate his character traits. Horford is the key.
Example The Lakers
Every player on the lakers started acting like entitled "PRICKS", because that's Kobe.
July 28th, 2010
5:59 pm
This has turned into the summer that 'wasn't' for the Hawks:
overpaid for jj;
josh powell in the middle;
teague still not ready
nba east gets more competitive….fire sund
lw—may he rip
July 28th, 2010
6:01 pm
Rufus1, the Lakers act like they are entitled because they are back-to-back world champions.
July 28th, 2010
6:03 pm
harry the hawk, the summer isn't over yet. I remember feeling this way last year at this time before the Hawks surprised me by signing Crawford.
July 28th, 2010
6:03 pm
Condolences to the Wright family.
July 28th, 2010
6:09 pm
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright.
July 28th, 2010
6:24 pm
Gattison retired in '96 but he's still pretty young (46). Ty Hill retired in '04 and is 42.
I'd love to know how many title-winning teams in recent years had any coaches under the age of 40. My guess is zero.
Gattison's work ethic, toughness (esp for a guy his size), and smart play as a player – not to mention his experience as a coach in N.O. – makes him a good fit, IMHO. He was the big man coach in NO, working with Chandler and West. He was fired last year with a month to go in the season for cost-cutting purposes, but West developed into an All-Star under his tutelage and Chandler had the best years of his career there. Coincidence or no, both Chandler and West looked a lot worse this past year after Gattison was gone. So it seems like a pretty good hire to me.
July 28th, 2010
6:43 pm
RIP former Hawk Lorenzen Wright. It really hurts when I hear of people leaving us so young. I really feel for his 6 children, and hope there's enough money left to adequately provide for them.
July 28th, 2010
7:03 pm
West developed into an All-Star under his tutelage and Chandler had the best years of his career there. .
How much of that was due to the fact that they were playing alongside CP3 too?
July 28th, 2010
7:10 pm
No doubt that was part of it, O'Brien. But West's points are generated far less through CP3 than most people think. He rarely scores in transition or off pick-and-rolls. Most of his points come off post-ups and facing up from midrange. CP3 helps a bit, no doubt. But I think having West around also helps CP3, just as having Boozer around helped Deron, Malone/Stockton, etc. It goes both ways. And West's skills developed with Gattison as the Hornets' main big man coach.
July 28th, 2010
7:20 pm
This Blog is Smokin' with Intellect!
Ken Strickland @ 334 PM: My Words exactly! And, ZO played without a Kidney and then with a donated Kidney sitting on his stomach! How TUFF is THAT?U
And, I especially loved your analogy of Inner versus Outer TUFFNESS! That's Real!
Tuff is as Tuff does!
Kobe is real TUFF! He ain't NO Punk! He played with a broke finger! An Avulsion Fracture is the worsþ kind, that's when the Tendon pulls and shears away from the bone. It's like the bone is shaved away!
That requires pins, plates and screws to re-attach the skin of the bone back to the bone itself.
Kobe played with that on his shooting finger!
How TUFF is that?
How many players do that? NONE! But, Kobe did!
July 28th, 2010
7:40 pm
OBRIEN-Co-sign that. I also believe there will be some players, like JTeague, JSmith, MWilliams, MEvans and even JJ, who'll want to prove they were victims of having to play under Woodson. Here's what I mean:
1-JJ took a lot of heat for failing in the playoffs, after being forced to carry the team when the OFF and DEF fell apart. He'll want to prove he was the victim, not the cause.
2-Teague definitely wants to prove it was Woodson's bias, not his ability, lack of maturity, or jump shot, that limited his mins and opportunity.
3-JSmith wants to prove his DEF, shot blocking, and overall ability were all compromised by Woodson's OFF and DEF systems.
4-MEvans also wants to prove that his limited production and inconsistency were directly related to the inconsistent mins and opportunities he received.
5-JJ wants to prove his inability to carry the team during the playoffs was due to a combination of fatigue, double teams, the lack of adjustments, and no half court OFF options other than ISO's.
6-JPowell will likely want to prove to the Lakers he was a better option off the bench than Luke Walton.
7-And MWilliams will want to prove his regression was the result of Woodson's refusing to include him as a consistent OFF option, or instruct certain players to do so.
8-We also have ownership, who definitely wants to prove they made the right decision by not resigning Woodson.
9-And finally, we have Woodson's replacement, LDrew.
He will certainly want to prove:
1-the half court OFF he'll install, and ran on a limited basis during practice,
2-eliminating the switching DEF and the problems associated with it,
3-utilizing the bench more effectively,
4-starting and developing Teague, rather than the over dependence on MBibby,
are all things that could have improved the team under Woodson had he not been too stubborn and egotistical to listen and learn.
July 28th, 2010
7:42 pm
But? M$aybe JOE talks in the locker room. IDK, maybe he doesn't believe in showing up guys on the court?
IDK? But maybe? He called out Josh for the Milwaukee Stuff … Therefore the chemistry issues were bamÞied by The Boss …. Just maybe he is respectful that way?
IDK? Maybe we will never know for sure?
July 28th, 2010
7:50 pm
I wonder if N.O. could be tricked into a trade of CP3, David West and Okafor for Josh, Jamal, and another piece.
July 28th, 2010
7:52 pm
And picks. I know, I'm dreaming. Dont wake me up.
Maybe Joe speaks in the locker room. but if the wheels are coming off on the court, I dont want him to wait until halftime before he speaks up. by then, it might be too late.
July 28th, 2010
7:58 pm
Yeah man! OK, granted Joe is NOT a Tony Dungy. Tony buried a son in College and still lead Peyton to a Championship! No One can top that TUFF-Stuff. But Joe, is TUFF! Ok – Arn Tellem is a bad dude, but Joe is a bad dude too. I just can't figure him out? But, he NEVER ran away from a challenge either!
He came aback to his team! (Ahem … LeBron didn't rise to the same old skool challenge). LeBron is a QUITTER and NOT dserving of Max-Pay! Joe proved he is … And GOT the contract to Prove It!
Ken Strickland
You feel me right? CP3 needs to return from the COMPLETE removal of that meniscus to show us that he can still play – right? We don't know that yet? Can CP3 still ball? ….. We will see!
I am NOT willing to trade: Josh, MarvinN Bibby and Teague + Picks to find out! Not Yet.
Besides, if we do that, we will be NO with CP3 and surrounding talent to play with!
Yes, Joe is introverted … But, he is NOT a problem or a distraction either.
July 28th, 2010
8:01 pm
Hey Man! This is one Tuff – Blog today! And there is NO Hot-Garbage!
How do YOU – Do It?
July 28th, 2010
8:16 pm
One reason for Joe's lack of production in the play-offs,
[that's never mentioned], is the way he was used during
the regular season.
It has been documented that Kobe takes nights off during
the reg season. That he coasts during the 1st-3rd qtrs., only
to pick up the intensity for the 4th qtr.[reg season].
Method to madness = *(pacing himself)
Basketball season for kobe & aspiring champions:
"a marathon not a sprint".
Mr. Woodson [by nature & necessity] rode Joe hard every game.
By play-off time Joe had little left in the tank. Not only did he play
heavy minutes every game but he carried a heavy load.
Now, I believe LD understands two things:
(1) let Joe's teammates help carry the load.
(2) allow Joe to pace himself during season.
*It's a theory. It has worked for others.
Especially as they get older. We shall see.
July 28th, 2010
8:34 pm
Thanks for the Lorenzen Wright link! Wow! Is he really gone? Wow! That is tragic!
(Picture Perfect)
I smell a rat re: Lorenzen. Please tell me thaþ the Ex-Wife is being looked at. Seems like, once he ran outa' money, she put a contract on him for the Insurance Money. I am very sure, she had Millions set aside on his life. He was last seen at her home around 2 AM? How would some random person know he was there?
She set him up! He called 911 … And gun shots were heard and then the phone went dead?
That, was a professional hit, Blu-Ray! Please call Memphis PD and see IF she is a person of interest!
This is just wronge! Who would benefit from his death? Look at all the beneficiaries!
Wow! I remeber Darvin Ham, I think he played in Atlanta for Lenny Wilkens! He was a big time Dunker, when the Pistons were the Bad-Boys – right?
Dang! RIP Lorenzen Wright … He loved his kids! He was a good man! Get that EX!
She Guilty – IMHO! Get Her! He was last seen leaving her house! I smell a BIG AZZ RAT in her backyard!
Blu-Ray! Get Em' !!!!!!!!!!
July 28th, 2010
8:37 pm
Really sad news about Lo'.
Grandad I hope you are right, and that LD uses ALL his players intelligently.
July 28th, 2010
8:45 pm
Darvin Ham. Like Mo Evans, the dude is definitely a Ferengi.
No doubt.
July 28th, 2010
8:51 pm
Victims & Losers!
Astro-Joe Jetson!
Hey, I am all over that Victim and Loser ISH!
Rise Up & Brace Yourself!
Don't cry because my piece of Chicken is Bigger than yours!
Don't hate me – Cauz' My Milk-Shake is Better than Yours!
Don't HATE me – Cauz' I'm beautiful!
Don't key my car – Cauz' You drive a Hooptie!
July 28th, 2010
8:52 pm
(Big ray ) you cant be setup to win the 6th man of the year . Why would Woody bench him ? If he didnt bench marvin or Bibby or why would he let Crawford rot on the bench ?
It seems to me that amounts to trying to find excuses for not paying Crawford instead of just admitting that he played well not because he was setup to play well but because he is simply a good player .
Last summer the argument was he would just chuck and would be selfish and now Woody made him ? jamal could make a serious argument that he should be starting next to Joe (not saying he would ) and was the main reason we won over 50 games . Because lets admit that Marvin,Zaza,Bibby, gave us very little last year .
July 28th, 2010
8:59 pm
(Ken Strickland)
Teams that try and blame there failures on the previous coach tend not to very well.
We had a starting 5 that had been together for 3 straight seasons and no one thinks that if any of them had spoke up about running more sets that create ball movement that Woody wouldnt oblige ? The fact is that Woody knew that this team didnt have the mental capacity for that type of offense just as LD is gonna find out . If you think Josh and Al are gonna be willing to constantly screen and risk foul trouble then people are gonna be awfully disappointed .
The iso offense kept Josh and AL on the floor for major minutes because it didnt have them do a lot of the dirty work offensively and without at true point on the roster to create offense for others it will impossible for LD's offense to work .
I expect to move forward with the iso offense we wont use at as much as Woody but it will still be our staple .
July 28th, 2010
9:32 pm
Sleepy, are you kidding me? This team does not have "the mental capacity"? Josh and Al are not "gonna be willing to constantly screen and risk foul trouble"? They are not being asked to build a rocket ship and chart a course to the moon.
Grandad, on MC's blog, explained the offense that we are expecting Drew to run. It's not that complicated. And there is something to this word 'core' that is constantly being used. This 'core' is a team. The players lack leadership from among themselves (sorry, drmaryb I disagree about Joe's leadership), but they are not a bunch of self-centered individauls running around on the floor. They rise emotionally as a team, they play flat as a team, and they quit in the playoffs as a team. Even when they ran the iso offense they still looked like a team. We are looking for someone to stick his head above the team and lead them forward.
July 28th, 2010
9:48 pm
Sad news on Low Wright RIP!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ray, great point on the toughness issue, you certainty made the right call on this one. I know the whole team definitely can play with more toughness and ferocity. They are still playing like boys the majority of the time…being out physical …save for Josh and Al every now and then…did I mention…every now and then.
Anyway, once they start going to the rack like men…THEY ARE EITHER GOING TO FINISH STRONG OR GET FOULED. None of that stumbling at the rack crap…looking for the ref to bail them out, and none that pumping three or four times…when your opponent is three or four inches shorter than you crap either…they settle for that circus stuff too much. Play hard, and plays strong…do it early and do it often. They could be tough in spurts…but never could sustain it.
Conner talks about playing with more physicality…it will be interesting to see what type of impact…he will have on the defense. If he can get a bunch of guys strap together from the Salvation Army to dee up, and play in your face defense…he should be able to work wonders…with the regular squad…we shall see.
Zaza problem is…he needs to rid of those dang scarves. lol
July 28th, 2010
10:13 pm
My prayers out to Lorenzens family, especially the children.
Glad to see a new coaching addition that should add some push towards toughness and big man play. LD has two new solid voices that seem to be saying all the right things. Let's see how they develop this team.
July 28th, 2010
10:14 pm
What about the buzz about Ricky Rubio wanting a new warmer home? Could someone send him our 10-Day forecast?
July 28th, 2010
10:15 pm
The Rockets traded David Andersen for (you guessed it!) a second round pick. A conditional second round pick. In 2015. No, not kidding.
Somehow, that makes me feel a bit better.
July 28th, 2010
10:18 pm
Andersen could've had a good home here, but now he just isn't seeming to fit in. Serves him right. He came over a bit too late with a bit less talent than he thought he had.
July 28th, 2010
10:40 pm
Hoopsworld analysis on the Hawks…
July 28th, 2010
11:16 pm
R.I.P. to Lo Wright.
July 28th, 2010
11:33 pm
The Lorenzen Wright story is pretty f-cked up. Latest news is that he got shot a minimum of 12 times. RIP
July 28th, 2010
11:41 pm
Man! That is crazy! Who did he owe money to? That was personal! I say look t the Ex-Wife and lock that Hoe up! Why she got sheets up to her windows? That is so ghetto and tacky and telling!
Rev in Tampa!
You are on Fire tonight!
(Clear Image)
Your Blog is the Bomb tonight! You Rollin'. Very peaceful and intellectual with NO side-bars!
No Hot-Garbage! You are the Man!
July 28th, 2010
11:49 pm
RIP Lorenzen Wright. Another black man lost to gun violence. smh
July 28th, 2010
11:52 pm
Thank You for that link! Nice!
This is what blogging is all about! Basketball!
Are we really looking at getting Carmello? That would be Block-Buster and worth the Luxury Tax man.
July 28th, 2010
11:58 pm
12 shots sound like more than one assailant!
Sounds very personal.
Sounds like Passion and NOT a robbery.
Wasn't he last seen leaving the Ex-Wife's home, visiting his kids around 2 AM?
Come on detectives … Solve this horrendous crime. You can't kill a man dead when he is down & out?
He was looking to play next year … If Cheeseburger Collins can get a contract – why not Lorenzen at 34 years old? Please solve this crime – the Ex-Wife did it!
July 28th, 2010
11:59 pm
I saw that Hoopsworld write-up yesterday, Melvin. It's pretty good. Some of the guys out there on the basketball blogs actually know their stuff, as long as they stay away from making up stories about supposedly in-the-works trades and free agent signings…
July 29th, 2010
12:06 am
SLEEPY-You sound like a disgruntled WOODY LOVER, among other things. You certainly seem to have Woodson's limited thinking and approach. And what makes you think Woodson would have listened to his players about improving the OFF, when:
1-Woodson publicly stated he didn't care about the OFF.
2-He proved it when he did absolutely nothing to improve the OFF production of PG MBibby and SF MWilliams.
3-He wouldn't listen or heed the advice of his assistant coaches on the matter, especially LDrew, the assistant that ended up replacing him.
4-If you followed the team, you would have heard JJ, Horford and Smoove state the OFF failed because there wasn't enough ball movement.
Some your comments make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Are you actually trying to excuse Woodson's lack of a structured OFF, and the reason he relied almost exclusively on ISO's, is to protect JSmith and AHorford from foul trouble? Why hasn't that been a deterrent for every other NBA team that uses picks and screens in their OFF?
July 29th, 2010
12:26 am
I feel you Bruh! smh too .. That ISH don't make no damn sense! You know that hoe did it … 12 shoits? Are you kiddin' me? That's hateful passion! Somebody got insurance policy on dude, I hope they FRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 29th, 2010
7:20 am
Well, not sure if the ex-wife was the one who shot him but she could very well had a hit out on him. I believe the reason he may have gotten shot so many times was maybe after getting shot only once, Lo realize he was shot..waited a while to play possum til he could get to his cell to make the 911 call while sounding disgruted, according to the 911 dispatcher. When the shooter notice him making the call, he then emptied the gun on him.
I was very sadden by the news. I was really hoping he was found 'still alive', just maybe injuried or something..WOW..RIP, LO!!
July 29th, 2010
8:05 am
Good read on the hoopsworld article.
I am okay with Bibby being the starting PG, as long as he plays better defensively, and Teague gets a consistent 20 mpg. And then we can explore trade options for Bibby next off-season when he will be an expiring (assuming Teague plays well enough to take over).
As for Al, I wonder if he has the right mindset when he goes up against Howard. But I do think part of our struggles against Orlando was because of Woody's bad game plan, which was also poorly executed by the players.
I think JJ will play more like Kobe, in that first half, he will look to get others going (unless he has a mismatch or open shot). And then in the second half, he is well rested and can take over.
Compared to last season, I think Marvin and Al will have better numbers, but Jamal's numbers wont be as good.
July 29th, 2010
8:51 am
OBRIEN-co-sign, again. Woodson used JaCrawford to compensate for the limited production he was getting from MBibby and MWilliams. For him, I guess that was an easier solution than actually doing something with his limited OFF system, or instructing JJ, Bibby or Crawford to include him more.
In Bibby's case, I think teams finally figured out he didn't like being pressured. They knew once he got the ball across half court, he'd give it up to JJ, rather than take it below the 3pt line against pressure. When your PG starts the OFF above the 3pt line, and you have no one cutting to the basket at anytime, it makes it very easy for the DEF, especially when it comes to double teaming JJ.
I'll guarantee you LDrew's OFF will either start below he 3pt line, have players cutting to the basket, or both. With the speed, quickness and athleticism our our players, I can't wait to see how well they perform in his system.
As far as the players buying into LDrew's OFF is concerned, I think it's a mute point. JJ resigning and not demanding a sign and trade proves he's bought into his system. Why on earth wouldn't MWilliams not totally buy into his system, after being basically excluded from the previous system.
Both AHorford and JSmith would certainly benefit from buying into an OFF system that doesn't force them to rely on their ISO and one on one skills to create their own shot. JTeague should relish playing in an OFF system that will rely on making his speed, quickness and penetrating ability a priority, rather than his jump shooting ability.
The only thing that will hold this OFF back will be the length of time it will take for everyone to get comfortable and confident in using it against NBA competition in critical situations. If we run consistently, and lead the NBA in fast break pts, pts in the paint and play solid DEF, like we did at the beginning of the season last yr, we won't need to rely as much on LDrew's half court OFF.
July 29th, 2010
9:15 am
I hope Bibby is not the starting PG on the Hawks. The Hawks can only improve with Teague.
Bibby can barely bring the ball up against any pressure.
Bibby can not penetrate.
Bibby can hardly make a layup on a fast break.
Bibby can not move laterally.
Bibby can not defend. He may be the worst defender in the NBA.
Bibby can not jump.
Bibby is slow.
Teague is better than Bibby in all of those areas.
July 29th, 2010
9:27 am
@ Ken Strickland – "In Bibby's case, I think teams finally figured out he didn't like being pressured. They knew once he got the ball across half court, he'd give it up to JJ, rather than take it below the 3pt line against pressure."
This also explains the line in the Hoopsworld piece that stated that Bibby only committed 90 turnovers for a strong 3.5 to 1 assist / turnover ratio. What Hoopsworld sees as a positive, Ken Strickland correctly notes was a negative.
July 29th, 2010
9:35 am
Sad ending for Lo Wright. RIP.
nire, I suspect that the difference between this team making or missing the champiosnhip round is not likely based on the last assistant coach hired. We've seen guys like Sam Cassell, Stacey Augmon, Patrick Ewing, Paul Pressey, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Brian Shaw, Mario Elie, Michael Curry and Avery Johnson hired almost immediately after they hung up their sneakers. I like that approach and was hoping the Hawks would consider a similar path. In lieu of leadership from the players, this team needs more than just their head coach prodding, encouraging and nudging the guys to row in the same direction. Someone fresh out of the league could walk the fine line between vet player and coach… again, like a Darrell Armstrong, Ty Lue of even Anthony Johnson (if he is done playing).
I assume that there are plenty of quality assistant coaches out there with good track records of success with individual players. I'm of the belief that the Hawks need more than technical expertise, they may need some salesmenship to get the players to "buy-in". I hope Gattison (and Connor) can do that, given the other coaches are mostly the same.
July 29th, 2010
10:07 am
So I take it that you cannot, in fact, name a single assistant coach on a recent title-winning team that had an assistant coach under the age of 40? Thought so.
I suspect that the difference between this team making or missing the champiosnhip round is not likely based on the last assistant coach hired.
No one said that it would, although you are so used to making strawman arguments that you don't even care about small details like that anymore. Having good assistants helps. And it will help a hell of a lot more if your head coach isn't a closed-minded retard like your boy Woody. The biggest improvement the Hawks made was kicking his predictable ass out on the street and replacing him with someone who has a f*cking clue. That's what could make the difference between making the championship round or not. It certainly means that we won't see the atrocious and thick-headed coaching that led to the Bucks taking us to 7 games and the Magic beating us in the most 1-sided series in the history of professional basketball.
Everything you just said about Bibby is bull$hit except for your assessment of his athleticism.
- He brings the ball up against pressure routinely without turning it over.
- He penetrates several times per game and quite effectively – not as often as most PGs, I'll grant, but not as little as his haters say.
- Bibby usually passes the ball off on a pass break. According to MySynergy, he is still one of the most efficient transition PGs in the league in terms of his team's PPG.
- Bibby was not even the worst defender on the Hawks last year (that title belonged to Jamal Crawford, followed by Jeff Teague), much less in the league. Statistically, it's not even close. And if you watch the game closely, it's easy to see that while Bibby does not stay in front of quicker players, he is still very effective at funneling his man towards the help defense – which is what most good perimeter defenders do anyway.
July 29th, 2010
10:08 am
* a single recent title-winning team that had an assistant coach under the age of 40
July 29th, 2010
10:40 am
The word Bullsh*T does not add validity. Bibby sucks. He is one of the worst PG's in the league.
You have an opinion, so do I.
July 29th, 2010
10:49 am
My prayers go out to the Wright family and all his friends. Whatever the situation was, I hate to see anything like that happen.
Nice article on Hoopsworld, seemed informed and not biased in any one direction. Nire from what I saw of games Crawford and Bibby were about the same when it came to defense and Teague just lost his man off-screens to easily. I thought Bibby was good defensively for stretches, but he just couldn't maintain it for long periods. Personnally I think Bibby is ready to retire but I believe he will give maximum effort for the next two years. If he can split time with Teague, than I think he will be much more effective. The team really needs to build Teague's confidence because with his physical tools, he can be a C. Paul like PG. Bibby seems like the type of guy to help Teague get there, so I'm really hoping it works out that way.
July 29th, 2010
11:21 am
Losing interest in the Shaq idea – been reading too much about his attitude. He's now a "maybe" for me.
I like Josh Boone alot. One of the best rebounders per minute in the NBA. 33% Foul shooting though? What's going on?
Kwame Brown really pretty bad – and his foul shooting was under 50% last year also.
They say Rasho would be a great fit for this offense, but really? He defeats Dwight Howard for us? Boone is only 6-10 240, so Howard eats him alive also. Kwame maybe the only guy with a shot, unless ZaZa beefs up.
Bibby ok at PG – Teague not ready yet, but he may be the fastest (quickest) guy in the NBA. Really wish we could trade Bibby, our 3.66m trade exception and a 1st pick to the Cavs for Mo'Williams – salaries work I think.
If you look at our cap numbers next year, no way ASG will pay Jamal more than 3-4m per year I would guess. Gotta re-sign Al. And Jamal will be 31 next yr. – in the NBA, that's when a guy with his skill set really begins to decline usually.
July 29th, 2010
11:27 am
nire, I listed several recently retired players who found coaching gigs. We can't use championship teams as a bench mark in some cases but not in others. What championship caliber team hired a minimum wage coach? If the one and only way to build a coaching staff is to emulate what championship clubs have done, are you saying the ASG has satisfied that standard with Drew and crew? If they deviate at the top, why not deviate at the bottom? Especially when several players and officials have claimed the "team chemistry" was a late season issue.
By the way, define "straw man" in the context of a basketball blog for me… I never quite understood the relevance of that term in this setting.
July 29th, 2010
11:28 am
As MC stated several weeks ago, Shaq has burned more than a bridge or 2 from city to city.
July 29th, 2010
11:34 am
First step to competing with Orlando is scoring against them. Do that first and worry about defending Howard second.
July 29th, 2010
11:36 am
My "flavor of the day" trade is Jamal Crawford & a 1st round draft pick for Joel Pryzbilla, Rudy Fernandez, and a signed Patrick Mills. Portland has too many players under contract and could use Jamal's scoring off the bench. Jamal is closer to his roots (grew up in Washington state I think).
Pryzbilla & Pachulia as bigs off the bench.
Rudy backs up Joe (and Marvin to a much lesser extent).
Mills seems like he has some talent. Nice looking shot.
July 29th, 2010
11:37 am
It looks like the Lakers and Heat have about a 2 year window left to dominate.
After that Kobe will be 34 – Gasol, Odom, Artest, Barnes, Walton, Blake will all be 32 or older – so they have about a two year window at championships at best I would guess.
Heat the same – after 2 years – Miller 33, Haslem 32 – both with 3 more years on their contracts – LeBron and Co. on the books for 50-65m for the next few in that time frame also.
Even D Wade will be 31 – and with his speed skill set – not much of a 3 point shooter (under 33% last year if the memory serves me correctly), he will probably decline rapidly as he ages.
Even Bosh will be 29 in the 3rd year, and as Barkley says – he's skinny! He probably won't age as well as Gasol.
That leave OKC, the Bulls, the Magic and the Hawks as the best teams for the future. If Sund plays his cards right, and barring injuries, we're gonna be good for a long time, with or without Jamal.
In 3 years – Josh 27 – prime
Al 26 – prime (almost)
Marvin 26- " " " "
Teague 24 – 4th year of experience – may be a top 10 or better PG in the league
Jordan C.24 – Hopefully has developed into a good #3 guard
ZaZa 29 – Will if it took Haywood and Gasol this long to develop…..?
Even JJ will only be 31 – and with his physical tools, he should age better than DWade. Much bigger, doesn't rely on quickness as much – better jump shooter.
The future looks bright for Hawks basketball! Let's win it all this year though – no need to wait 3!
July 29th, 2010
11:42 am
How is Dwight Howard only the 3rd highest paid player on the Magic? Just a thought – and I wish we could pry Brandon Bass from them as one of the 2 bigs left we need to sign.
July 29th, 2010
11:47 am
Niremetal – I agree with almost everything you said about Bibby. If you watch he and Teague, Bibby (unfortunately) is still clearly the better PG. But he is aging, and Teague is progressing. Somewhere in the next several months, or at least in the next 1-2 years, if Teague keeps learning – he's gonna surpass Bibby. And if Teague keeps learining and progressing, we may have a poor man's Rondo on our hands. If not, Jason Terry – scorer, never a pure PG.
July 29th, 2010
11:54 am
JJ will be much better in the playoffs this year I would assume – he and LeBron both took the 2nd round off it looked like, especially JJ. Could you imagine blowing out a knee going into FA? No contract, so I really think JJ just coasted, deferred to Jamal, so he could be healthy for a Max deal, which several teams were willing to give him.
July 29th, 2010
12:28 pm
Oh no. I knew it. RIP, Lo Wright…
July 29th, 2010
12:47 pm
Astro Joe,
My guess is that all of the head coaches of recent title-winning teams were highly paid. But for everyone but Larry Brown and Doc Rivers, my guess is that wasn't the case when they were first hired as head coaches in the league. Phil Jackson was one of the league's lowest-paid when he was hired as the Bulls head coach, and he won his first title as a coach one year later. Same with Pat Riley in 1982. Like Drew, both were assistants who got promoted to head coach. Right there, you have 9 of the last 15 Finals winners. 4 of the remaining 6 were taken by Gregg Popovich, who was a GM with no prior coaching experience that essentially appointed himself as head coach. My guess is that at least initially, he was not given a pay bump for appointing himself coach.
As far as head coaches go, the Finals winners have been dominated by just a few coaches, and my guess is that none of them have a particular interest in coming to Atlanta with the possible exception of 1-time champ Doc Rivers. The other highly-paid and ballyhooed coaches like Avery Johnson, Mike D'Antoni, Don Nelson, Flip Saunders, Doug Collins, etc do not have a single title under their belts. That's why I said I always preferred going out and hiring a sharp assistant rather than a proven playoff loser, which is what those guys are. The key is to find the next Riley, Jackson, or Pop. Because taking a highly-paid coach who hasn't won a title and putting him at the helm is pretty much never a recipe for a title.
To quote Wikipedia:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
You are the master of that. You do it all the time, and everyone calls you out on it, but you go blissfully on doing it anyway. You deflect, confuse, or ignore when people bring up things that weaken your argument. Straw man falls under the heading of "confuse" – you confuse the issues in order to hide when someone points out how full of sh*t you are.
July 29th, 2010
1:02 pm
Glad the Hawks didn't overpay for Shaq.
July 29th, 2010
1:14 pm
One thing I would like to add about teams of the future. All it takes is one good draft pick, and a couple shrewd signings, and a team can be top 4. And NJ is still fairly young, while Kings have a couple building blocks in Tyreke Evans and Cousins, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Hawks definitely have a bright future though…
July 29th, 2010
1:29 pm
nire, so let me know if the following qualifies as a straw man argument (so that I can avoid such behavior in the future):
I said, Drew is short an assistant coach (initially refuted and then later confirmed) and I suggested hiring a younger guy who can relate to the Hawks players. You said something to the affect, "championship squads don't have younger (<40) assistants on their bench (I hope that is a fair summation). It seems like that statement avoids all of the other factors that go into a championship squad and places the spotlight on the age of the assistant coaches, or is that not a fair interpretation? If not, then what does the age of the assistant coaches of championship teams (an issue that you introduced) have to do with my suggestion to hire a recently retired player? Based on the universally accepted Wiki source of a straw man argument, it seems like you have used s straw man argument to refute my opinion that a younger coach would benefit the Hawks.
I mean, you didn't disqualify the notion based on the merits of any of the stated candidates, you didn't dispute the notion that we have seen recently retired players land an assistant's job shortly after their retirement, nor did you argue that a guy who can relate to our players may benefit the team. No, you went to the age demographic of the assistant coaches on championship teams. Right? Wouldn't a more direct argument to my opinion about the benefits of a younger assistant for this specific team rest in why it may not work for this specific team? To offer up a "if it won't get them to a championship argument then it isn't worth pursuing" strategy kind of opens up all decisions to that standard of working toward a championship. If creating that link is the essence of the "straw man" issue, then guess what, call me the Scarecrow and I will wear that moniker proudly.
July 29th, 2010
1:39 pm
nire, I still don't know how the definition of straw man applies here. (Also, the notion of the straw man definition assumes a universally accepted interpretation of an opinion, which seems to be a fundamentally flawed assumption in the world of a blog).
I said, Drew is short an assistant coach and I suggested hiring a younger guy who can relate to the Hawks players. You said something to the affect, "championship squads don't have younger (<40) assistants on their bench (I hope that is a fair summation). It seems like that statement avoids all of the other factors that go into a championship squad and places the spotlight on the age of the assistant coaches. You didn't disqualify the notion based on the merits of any of the stated candidates, you didn't dispute the notion that we have seen recently retired players land an assistant's job shortly after their retirement, nor did you argue that a guy who can relate to our players may benefit the team. No, you went to the age demographic of the assistant coaches on championship teams. Right? Wouldn't a more direct argument to my opinion about the benefits of a younger assistant for this specific team rest in why it may not work for this specific team? To offer up a "if it won't get them to a championship then it isn't worth pursuing" argument kind of opens up all decisions to that standard of working toward a championship. If creating that link is the essence of the "straw man" issue, then guess what, call me the Scarecrow and I will wear that moniker proudly. If you use a measuring stick to evaluate one decision, why not apply that same standard to all decisions? That just seems like a smart and bright thing to do.
July 29th, 2010
1:41 pm
nire, I still don't know how the definition of straw man applies here. Also, the notion of the straw man definition assumes a universally accepted interpretation of an opinion, which seems to be a fundamentally flawed assumption in the world of a blog.
I said, Drew is short an assistant coach and I suggested hiring a younger guy who can relate to the Hawks players. You said something to the affect, "championship squads don't have younger assistants on their bench (I hope that is a fair summation). It seems like that statement avoids all of the other factors that go into a championship squad and places the spotlight on the age of the assistant coaches. You didn't disqualify the notion based on the merits of any of the stated candidates, you didn't dispute the notion that we have seen recently retired players land an assistant's job shortly after their retirement, nor did you argue that a guy who can relate to our players may benefit the team. No, you went to the age demographic of the assistant coaches on championship teams. Right? Wouldn't a more direct argument to my opinion about the benefits of a younger assistant for this specific team rest in why it may not work for this specific team? To offer up a "if it won't get them to a championship then it isn't worth pursuing" argument kind of opens up all decisions to that standard of working toward a championship. If creating that link is the essence of the "straw man" issue, then guess what, call me the Scarecrow and I will wear that moniker proudly. If you use a measuring stick to evaluate one decision, why not apply that same standard to all decisions? That just seems like a smart and bright thing to do.
July 29th, 2010
1:58 pm
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright and Harry Galbreath. Grandad, as you know, Harry was one of the first born and raised Clarksville, TN athletes to excel on the professional level. Outside of the great Wilma Rudolph, he was the best athlete this city has produced. So it was a bummer to hear that he passed away.
Two hours later, I see that they find Lorenzen dead. This capped a real bad day for me. Like drmaryb said .. the more I look into this story, the more I believe that this was a set-up. When you get shot that many times, it's as if he was executed, not just killed. Keep an eye on that story folks. It's either going to go down that Lorenzen was involved with some shady people, and either owed them money . . . was trying to buy drugs to sell . . or was set up to be killed by someone close to him. Lorenzen was pretty much a Memphis legend. For him to go out like that is straight B.S. My prayers definitely go out to his family and the Galbreath family for their losses.
As for the toughness issue, it's one of the biggest issues that the Hawks face. As Big Ray pointed out to start the blog, I believe the two guys that MUST play tougher, are Horford and Smoove. They have to be willing to go to battle on a nightly basis and not get pushed around by bigger guys. They have no choice, if we want to see this team improve.
Physically, I don't think this team as a whole is tough at all. And that's from JJ on down. At times, JJ needs to be looking to draw a foul to stop a run by getting to the FT line, but he doesn't do that. Horford doesn't do it either. Josh tries to finesse too many lay-ups around the rim, instead of attacking it. On defense, it's been well documented how our guards almost refuse to fight through screens ( which brought about the dawn of the switching defense being used a lot ).
As for the Shaq issue, all I'm going to tell people, is to look at the Cincinnati Bengals. They just brought in possibly the worst locker room guy in the world in Terrell Owens. This, after they passed on him earlier in the year, and nobody else wanted him.
But the Bengals are a playoff team, looking to make a run NOW. Adding an experienced player in a position they were weak at ( wide receiver ), hopefully will help the team. Add a name like Terrell Owens to the mix, despite all of his past troubles with former teams, and you see the effect of it. The media is interested. The fans are DEFINITELY interested. And the team's expectations have rose considerably.
Whether it works or not, you can't say that the Bengals didn't at least try and go for it. Adding T.O. and Pac Man Jones in the same season? Sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen . . . or a team gambling that their talents as football players will enable the team to get to the next level.
Time is running out for the ASG on trying to secure Shaq, and reaping all it can from him being here. The new NBA schedule comes out on August 3rd ( next Tuesday ). If Shaq were signed right now, I would guarantee you that we would have a TON of national TV games on that schedule. But when that schedule comes out, immediately look to see how many Thursday night games we have. If we don't have any, that's an indication that the Hawks will NOT be on TNT.
With the way our attendance ebbs and flows, more weeknight national TV games would help these guys at the box office, you would think. Would more Hawk fans attend a Thursday night game at Philips between the Hawks and Bobcats, if they knew that it would be on TNT that Thursday? How about an Atlanta vs Utah game on ESPN on a Wednesday?
I would love to sit in on a meeting with the ASG, when it comes to the marketing of this team. I would love to hear what they would do, and what they don't do. To me, this lack of vision all around, is the reason why ATL fans have so much apathy toward that ownership group.
LOL. . in two weeks, all people are going to be talking about, is a meaningless Hall of Fame game between "America's Tea" ( the Cowboys ), and the new Hollywood Team ( the Bengals ).
And the Hawks still won't have Shaq, and will miss part of the benefits of having him here.
July 29th, 2010
2:04 pm
Sorry, but you're not worth my time. As your post was hilariously selective in deciding what parts of my prior posts you wanted to address and which to ignore. You apparently still don't have the capacity to address the things I say directly, and it's just amusing that you ignored large swaths of my responses to you in order to make it seem like I had made straw man arguments. Whatever, dude. Go make a recording of your own voice and then argue with it. That's what you're best-suited for.
July 29th, 2010
2:05 pm
"America's Team"
July 29th, 2010
2:07 pm
LOL . . I still say that Marvin Williams CAN'T be the reason why we don't acquire Shaq. He is not essential to our core. I'm not a Marvin hater, but damn . . his production can definitely be replaced . . quickly and probably cheaply.
July 29th, 2010
2:20 pm
That's why I said I always preferred going out and hiring a sharp assistant rather than a proven playoff loser, which is what those guys are. .
I know the GM situation can be muddy, because sometimes a GM takes the fall (along with the coach) if the coach is not getting the team to produce, but what's your position on hiring a GM?
Would you prefer a GM who has been fired from previous jobs, or would you prefer an assistant GM from one of the successful clubs?
Although I'm a big Falcons fan, I lived in Dayton OH for a while, so I root for the Bengals too. I'm a little concerned about that team (off the field). Dont they have T.O., Pac-Man, Tank Johnson, and Matt Jones? I hope they keep it together.
As for marketing, I dont think the ASG do a good job of marketing their players.
Although I am on board with the signing of Shaq, he needs to lower his price. No way would I give him more than the MLE. But I would definitely go into luxury tax to sign him, because I think he will generate enough revenue to offset the tax.
Marvin does have a lot of potential, but I do think he is overpaid. Maybe Drew will help him realize his potential. If he can give us 14 and 6, with good to great defense, his value will skyrocket.
July 29th, 2010
2:24 pm
nire, that's fine. I understand when someone prefers to take their marbles and go home. Get back safely.
July 29th, 2010
2:38 pm
OB, the Hawks don't really have guys with the (to use a term I saw in one of the Lorenzen Wright stories) gregarious personality that would allow for easy promotions for the team. Take away the Hawks marketing staff for a minute and when have we ever seen one of the Hawks players endorsing a local car dealer or a local airlines or restaurant or any local business? Josh Smith is likely the "fan favorite" but he doesn't make frequent media appearances. Neither does Joe. Jamal appeared on 790 last season about once every 10 days and was probably the best interview I've heard from a Hawks player since Jason Terry's brief stay here. Marvin and Al are good on radio interviews, Zaza is REALLY good and funny (as can be expected) but I always get the sense that they are prodded to do those interviews. So yeah, the team is poorly marketed but I blame some of that on the persoanlity types and what appears to be a lack of comfort. I'm ticked off that Joe hasn't done any interviews since signing the richest contract in franchise history (after the misunderstanding during the playoffs with his anti-fan comments). All involved are wrong on that one, Joe, his agent and the Hawks PR people.
Funny, I was dead-set against Shaq initially, but now, I'm hoping that we sign him. With my belief that our ceiling is the 2nd round, he won't likely do much to keep us from that level nor do much to get us past that level, but he will deliver more cash to the ASG and a little more "hype" to the arena.
July 29th, 2010
2:45 pm
I would have preferred an assistant GM from a successful club. That's why I was pushing for Dennis Lindsey (AGM of the Spurs) back in '08. I think a retread is better than a former player with no prior experience worth mentioning – ie a suit is better than street clothes when it comes to GM. It's a bit different, though.
Ironically, I would feel better about the former coach of a bad or mediocre team than I would about a guy like Don Nelson or Mike Brown. As a coach, you can't mold just any crew into a championship squad, so I don't hold it against Dwayne Casey (for instance) that the Wolves failed to make the playoffs. Once you coach a playoff team, it's a different story. In the playoffs, good/bad coaching makes a much bigger difference. That's why the Bucks managed to extend the Hawks to 7 games despite being completely overmatched in talent. I would never hire Mike Brown or Mike Woodson, both of whom took teams that were (in my view) championship-caliber in talent and got outcoached. But someone like Terry Porter I would consider, though I'd still have preferred a Thibodeaux type.
July 29th, 2010
2:54 pm
Going into this offseason, my top choices for a new head coach were Monty Williams and Dean Demopoulos from Portland, Ty Corbin from Utah, or Tom Thibodeaux from Boston. Among retreads, the only one I liked was Byron Scott, who I think got hosed in New Orleans and New Jersey; in my view, neither of those teams should have been as good as he made them. I would have preferred one of the assistants, though.
For Drew, I like the way his offense sounds. Assuming he can get buy-in to that, he has half of I wanted out of a good coach. But the other half is getting said buy-in, and I have my doubts that he will be able to get that after being Woody's assistant for so long.
And seriously, I can't imagine that Drew's went into the decision to hire him. There's no luxury tax on coaching salaries. Hiring a good coach is the cheapest way to improve a team. If you're cheap, you skimp on players, not on the coach. Considering the number of people who bitch about the price the Hawks paid for Speedy, Marvin, Zaza, Bibby, and now Joe (not to mention the substantial salary increases the team took with the Bibby and Crawford trades), I really think the "cheap" meme needs to be retired. Of course, some people choose to see only what they want to see, and nothing will change that. If you start with your conclusion and work backwards, the evidence is bound to look one-sided.
July 29th, 2010
2:55 pm
*Drew's price tag
July 29th, 2010
3:17 pm
Agreed on Joe. All we got from him was a Q and A with MC. I think there should Have been a press conference, where he could have tried to help the casual fans get hype for the season. But alas, that is not his style.
With so many transplants in ATL, ASG should find a way to market the players better (even the ones who may not seem that marketable).
How can you be so convinced that money did not play a factor in drew's signing?
You reasoned that the $ 3mil from selling the pick could go towards paying JJ, or it could be used to fund another area of operation.
Couldn't the same be said for the ~$1 mil or so saved from hiring drew?
July 29th, 2010
3:31 pm
The Heat signed Eddie Jones today. Where in the heck did they dig him up from? My goodness, how many guys are they going to sign…
July 29th, 2010
3:39 pm
Bringing the heat and passion as always. Yeah and don't forget too that the Bulls brought in Rodman
to rebound the basketball and WN a Championship, not give back rubs in the locker room.
Didn't the Lakers do the same, by bringing in Rodman then and Artest now.
Just Win Baby!
July 29th, 2010
3:44 pm
Eddie Jones? What is he like 38?
July 29th, 2010
3:54 pm
I am saying that if a team is trying to keep costs low in terms of spending, they would skimp on the players side rather than the coaches' for two reasons: 1) Players' contracts are fully guaranteed, while coaches' are not; and 2) players' contracts count toward the luxury tax, while coaches' do not. A team keeps the luxury tax element in mind even when they set their payroll below the luxury tax, since (as so many teams discovered this year) an unexpected fall in NBA revenues can lead to teams paying the luxury tax that thought they'd end up below the luxury tax.
To put it in perspective, the highest paid head coach in the NBA (Phil Jackson) has a salary of "just" $12 million, which is roughly double what the next highest-paid coach makes, if memory serves. In other words, there were nearly 50 individual players who made more than the highest-paid head coach in the league. For every other coach in the league, the average league salary (ie the MLE) is higher than their annual salary. Since the difference in terms of wins and losses between having a good and a bad coach is a lot more substantial than the difference between an MLE and a minimum salary player, a team looking to skimp would almost certainly skimp on the players and not on the coach. That, in my view, is how you end up with odd dichotomies like the Blazers and Spurs (my two model franchises) – compared to other teams, they rank higher in how much they pay their coach as compared to how much they pay their players.
And not for nothing, but when he was first hired, Woody made more than fellow newly-hired coach D'Antoni.
In any case, feel free to keep having a selective memory on what the Hawks spend money on. But you're the one who always brings up Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza's contracts. If you think they're so overpaid, how can you square the ASG being cheap with overpaying for the team's 5th, 6th, and 7th/8th options? Or for Speedy? Or for Joe?
It seems to me that if you examine it carefully, the complaint about the Hawks' management isn't that their cheap. It's that they are stupid. I'm NOT saying that stupid is better than cheap. I'm saying that it's different. And to the extent that Hawks folks read this blog, I don't want them to get the idea that the fans think the main thing that has kept this team from contention is the fact that they haven't spent MORE money, rather than that they haven't spent the money they have wisely.
If ASG made a business decision to spend less on the coach and use the savings on an extra player or two, then they are just plain stupid. I know a lot of you believe that they are, but I don't.
July 29th, 2010
3:57 pm
Personally, btw, I did not like the hiring of Drew. But it wasn't because I think that we could have gotten a better coach by paying substantially more (I don't think Dean Demopolous, Monty Williams, or Ty Corbin would have cost that much more). It's that I don't think that, for this team, hiring an old assistant is the best way to usher in an era of change. I hope Drew proves me wrong. Because I have a feeling that New Orleans will be turning some heads this year with Monty Williams at the helm…
July 29th, 2010
4:02 pm
They are even considering signing TMAC. Heck, they could have sign Penny Hardaway instead of Eddie Jones…
Agreed with OB and drmaryb, this team chemistry/lockerroom concerns mess is overrated. Some Hawks fans at like the Hawks just won the championship and scaried to tinker with the roster. After going winless for 2 yrs in a row in the 2nd round of the playoffs, it's time to add some players that will crack our top 8 rotation…
July 29th, 2010
4:05 pm
O'Brien – agree with some other young teams out there – maybe even Washington if they get their act together – but we have a very bright future 3-4 years out – and the only reason Orlando does is Mr. Dwight Howard.
July 29th, 2010
4:08 pm
I don't think the ASG hired drew because he was cheap. I think they hired him because they believe woody was the main reason (directly and indirectly) for the team's shortcomings. But I wanted to hear your opinion.
Another point we agree on, is rick talked about change, but yet we have basically the same top 9 players and mostly the same coaching staff.
That being said, I think the hawks will be a better team under Larry drew, even if they have less wins.
July 29th, 2010
4:08 pm
Hey that is Eddie House you're speaking of: he is married to Mike Bibby's sister.
I do recall that Eddie Jones did once play for the Heat though, back when Zo played.
Oops! Typo. (Smiles)
Yeah, the Heat are bringing in some quality veterans and it will be interesting to see how it all comes together, chemistry-wise. Very, very interesting.
July 29th, 2010
4:12 pm
"Americas Tea" I like that typo.
I was thinking "The Beverly Hillbilly's and that "Texas Tea". You know … Black Gold? ROF
July 29th, 2010
4:12 pm
You are right. The Heat signed Eddie House. My badd. I was looking at it on my blackberry and thought I saw Eddie Jones…
July 29th, 2010
4:22 pm
Last I checked, Coaches contracts are guaranteed. They can be bought out just like a player's can.
If, you let the coach go? His salary is still due and payable. That goes for college coaches as well.
Avery Johnson, came out of retirement after receiving his final pay year from Dallas.
He was such a detriment to the Dallas team, Cuban paid him almost three years to stay away from it.
July 29th, 2010
4:24 pm
Dam girlfriend, it's a big difference between Eddie Jones and Eddie House Thx for the update
July 29th, 2010
4:30 pm
Per Lang Whitaker and Peachtree Hoops, we've re-signed Collins. Drew in the press release:
C"We're excited to welcome Jason back to the team," said Hawks head coach Larry Drew. "He's a veteran presence in the locker room, and adds experienced depth to the frontcourt. Jason has worked hard in the offseason, and with his knowledge of the system we're implementing, he'll continue to be a valuable contributor to our club."
That reminded me of something I'd forgotten – Collins played for NJ back when Drew was an assistant (under Byron Scott) there. If we got Collins c.2002, I'm great with this. But something tells me we didn't.
This almost certainly means no Shaq. Ah well. I still say we need another big SF or combo forward. Hopefully Collins gets into good enough shape that my fat jokes can start targeting DScott again instead of him…
July 29th, 2010
4:35 pm
Just read Hawks resign Collins. I wonder if this closed the door on signing Shaq.
July 29th, 2010
4:37 pm
Whatever weight Collins lost can be gained between nowand November, I hope he stays in condition. It's not a given.
Melvin, I figured that you meant Money and not Jones.
OB, they fired Woody because they blamed him for the team's short-comings, that should not have weighed in on his replacement. Those are 2 separate activities, analyzing the source of the problem and identifying the best person to fix the problem. I understand the first, the second seems to be rooted in a culture of sameness. including the most recent player transaction. Sameness.
July 29th, 2010
4:41 pm
If I were the Hawks' staff, I might make his contract conditional upon him remaining below a certain weight. I'm not a nutritionist, so I have no clue what that weight would be for a guy his size. But seriously…
July 29th, 2010
4:43 pm
Now that we got Collins back, it looks like the only thing to wait for is a possible trade.
Jamal C
Jordan C
Not a bad line-up, but Conf. Finals material, we can only hope. My guess is the last spot will be taken up by a guy they find in training camp.
July 29th, 2010
4:49 pm
Wow, Sund is on fire!!
1. Signed JJ to the richest salary in club history and highest in the entire league
2. Signed Josh Powell to a 1-year vet min
3. Resigned Jason Collins to probably a 1-year vet min
Note: Randmo will probably be next
July 29th, 2010
4:54 pm
Same Ole – Same Ole!
Re-Signing Collins should have no bearing on signing Shaq – whatsoever.
Astro Joe
You killing the "Straw-Man Theory" and everything in his path. They got no comeback,
They got NOTHING for you baby! Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.
"What we are having is a healthy, decent conversation.". That's all folks!
(- Cedric the Entertainer -)
Astro Joe baby, You do You! Excellent posts today!
July 29th, 2010
5:01 pm
Dr. Mary… you're a trip. As long as I keep the ladies happy, all is good .
The Eddie Jones thing had me laughing though. Melvin was straight irate at the notion the Heat were hiring the decrepid to join their squad. I was waiting for a post suggesting that Rony Seikaly was headed back to South Beach. LOL.
Speaking of conditioning, I hope the Hawks realize that a motion offense requires better conditioning than standing around on iso plays. I hope they are prepping for that now as opposed to waiting until October. It's kind of hard to learn a new offense when you're bent over gasping for air.
July 29th, 2010
5:13 pm
Run Hard for the Money!
Astro Joe
I was thinking the same thing! These boys are gonna' have to run hard for the money!
They asked for it – They got it! Toyota!
We Fans don't wanna' hear NO complaints about how HC working them top hard in practice and they got no legs for the games!
Remember them Pat Riley "Three – a – Days?"
Dwayne Wade told Pat Riley to stay upstairs and they would run through a wall for Spolestra! LOL!
July 29th, 2010
5:26 pm
If im not mistaken, Ron Seikaly is a well known DJ in Miami so he probly wouldnt have to move to play for the heat.
I think rick should have a weight clause for Jason Collins. Pat Riley is notorious for having it in his contracts.
And with a motion offense, guys need to be in shape. With our team being young and athletic, I also hope we press more (especially when teague is in the game).
I like how Miami has filled its Bench. Big Z, Mike Miller, Eddie house, juwan Howard, Jamal macgloire, James Jones. They are old though…
July 29th, 2010
5:30 pm
Dr. Mary… exactly. I can hear the excuse making already. As if they don't already know what will happen during the vet's camp in what, maybe 60-75 days. They may not know the exact angles associated with the pentangle, but they shouldn't pretend that it won't require considerably more movement than what they have practiced in the past 6 years.
July 29th, 2010
5:33 pm
DJ Rony? Really? I had no idea. Man, as if being tall, rich and looking like a Greek god didn't help him back in the day with the ladies. Now he's spinning records at clubs? Wow. Dude knows how to stay relevant to the finer half, huh? I ain't mad at him.
July 29th, 2010
5:41 pm
I don't care if he loses weight….I WANT HIM TO LIFT A WEIGHT.
A 270lb pillow is still SOFT…I will take a 260lb ROCK!!!
July 29th, 2010
6:36 pm
During his playing days, he was called the "spin doctor", so I guess the name still applies. He even has a single coming out "Come With Me" (complete with vocals and lyrics Seikaly wrote) on August 3rd. Do you remember his supermodel ex-wife?
I wont be surprised if the Hawks start the regular season slow while adjusting, and Drew tries to find the best rotation. However, I expect them to finish the second half strong.
July 29th, 2010
6:43 pm
I don't see how anyone can automatically say MBibby is better than JTeague. Granted, Bibby is better is certain areas, but Teague is better than Bibby in certain areas as well. The question is, what areas are most important in the particular OFF that's being run.
In Woodson's jump shooting, ISO dependent OFF, and its premium on shooting 3's, Bibby was the better OFF option. But it appears LDrew prefers a quicker, faster, penetrating, DEF minded PG to run his motion OFF, which means Teague is the better option. You can't get hung up or deceived by Bibby's excellent assist to turnover ratio.
He takes almost no risks, seldom ventures below the 3pt line with the ball in his hands, and almost never penetrates, or make passes in the lane, except for an occasional pick and roll. If you look at the best PG's in the league, you'll see they have higher assist to turnover ratio's. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE RISK REWARD THING.
Bibby might be perceived as a PG that does an excellent job of protecting the ball, but giving into pressure, handing it off above the 3pt line, and taking few risks is also why he's one of the NBA's least productive PG, and THE least productive starting PG's. When you have the overall speed, quickness, athleticism and versatility of the Hawks, you can afford to take more risks and have more turnovers.
July 29th, 2010
6:56 pm
OBRIEN-I'm not so certain they will start the season slow, although it's certainly possible. While I doubt if they're familiar with LDrew's entire OFF scheme, JJ, Teague and Drew indicated they ran it to some extent during practice throughout the season. And let's face it, our players are probably going to be so excited, attentive, and motivated to prove something, they'll probably absorb everything Drew and Connor teaches them.
Marvin, Teague and Smoove have been criticized and blamed far more than they've been encouraged, and that's certainly going to change this yr.
July 29th, 2010
7:30 pm
This has been the worst summer as a hawk fan ever!! Last year we did ok by getting the best 6 man in basketball the year before that got decent guys like Flip and Mo that were vets taht knew how to win and could play two postions and this year we re-sign Big Chimp munk collins and Josh 6′6 Powell to add to add another small undersized big man and add a coach that came from the same system we just ran out of town!!! Good Job Rick Sund and Hawks owners you sure now how to give your fan base something to look foward too.
July 29th, 2010
7:33 pm
Man if im Crawford 2 im in the lab working on being a point guard b/c he can mess around and start b/c Bibby is better off coming off the bench at this stage and Teague based on the way he played in summer league may not last 5 NBA starts!!!! I would much ratehr have Crawford running a high pick and roll then Teague b/c i know they going to dare him night in and night out to knock down a 20 foot jumper!!!
July 29th, 2010
7:49 pm
This whole idea of JC2 being the point is all hype. He had two games in the SUMMER League where he made some passes after he knocked down some deep 3's. I doubt that he would want the point if it were offered because he is a scorer. Different mentality. The Hawks need someone who can penetrate, dish, create & score; in that order.
July 29th, 2010
7:55 pm
Ken S,
The players might be hyped, but I get the feeling that an offense like Drew's requires players to be patient, and play under control. Whenever a player is in the zone, they usually say the game slows down for them.
That is what the players will have to do. Slow the game down, and not be too excited.
July 29th, 2010
7:59 pm
Rev in Tampa
Preach that Truth – Brother! You definitely know your basketball, you will hear a lot of drama on these blogs.
Just keep on – keeping it Real!
July 29th, 2010
8:07 pm
I can't wait to get my Collins jersey in November.
I bet Sund and Drew had this convo today in his office . . . .
SUND: "Larry . . we got you some big man help".
DREW: "Wow . . are you telling me that you got Shaq? I can't believe you closed the deal. Rick . . you da man! You da mudda-frickin . .
SUND: ( interrups ) . . . "Larry . . Larry slow down. We didn't sign Shaq."
DREW: ( curious ) "Oh? . . . So who did you sign?"
SUND: "Jason Collins"
DREW: ( mouth open, speechless )
SUND: "Come on now Larry. You know my hands are tied. You know that Gearon and the boys refuse to go into the Luxury Tax. I can only sign minimum contract players now. Don't act surprised Larry."
DREW: ( head down, talking in a low, disappointed voice ) . . . "Yeah Rick. I know. I was just hoping that . . ."
SUND: ( interrupts again ) . . "Just stop hoping. It's not going to happen."
DREW: "So have you told Al yet? He's gonna be pizzed that we didn't bring in another rebounder."
SUND: "No . . I haven't told him yet. I'll leave that to you."
DREW: "Me? Oh No. You're the GM. That's YOUR job sir. He's not biting my head off."
SUND: "Larry, we discussed this before the draft. All of us personnel people have to rotate when talking to the media. And you know it's your turn today. So it's you that will face Al."
DREW: "Can I resign?"
SUND: "No . . . ( laughs ) Time to face the music and feel what I go through on a daily basis. And make sure you make up a good lie for why we brought Collins back."
((( Al Horford busts through Sund's office door . . mad as hell )))
SUND: ( nudging Drew ) "Here we go""
HORFORD: "I just checked my Twitter. COLLINS, Rick? . . COLLINS???? . . I asked for rebounding help, and you signed THIS (( bleepa bleepa )) back here????
SUND: "Calm down Al."
HORFORD: ( spinning around like Chris Tucker in Rush Hour 2 at the Craps table ) . . . "I ain't calming down!!! WTF are me and Smoove supposed to do?"
SUND: ( pointing and walking toward the door ) . . "Welp . . time for me to go. Handle this Larry."
( Sund runs out the door as Horford is cussing him out in Spanish. Horford turns to Drew. )
HORFORD: "But you know he can't do ish, Coach. He can't rebound. He can't block a shot. He can't score. WTF can he do coach? Huh? Tell me!! What can he do?
( Al storms out of the room, cussing in Spanish )
DREW: "Damn . . . what did I get myself into." ( thinking – WWWD? . . . ."What Would Woody Do"? )
July 29th, 2010
8:38 pm
ROFLMBAO…@ Northcyde …
July 29th, 2010
8:50 pm
[...] Hawks pieces and piecesAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)As we plead those, I keep meditative about the blank Lorenzen Wright. Missing persons cases some-more mostly than not have been possibly a fake alarm, or they don't … [...]
July 29th, 2010
8:53 pm
DREW shouts into the distance: "But Al, you know they are worried about Chemistry. And Jason is a big locker room presence".
Al turned around in disgust: "Of course he is a big presence. Have you seen how huge that dude is?"
July 29th, 2010
8:58 pm
BA = Black Ass?
July 29th, 2010
9:00 pm
Dang northcyde, its going to be hard to recover from that one broooooooooo.
Great stuff folks…keep bring the heaT..in this motha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 29th, 2010
9:01 pm
You done earned yourself an ocar with that performance. I'm lol as I type
July 29th, 2010
9:20 pm
8:07 post by northcyde…
July 29th, 2010
9:32 pm
You have to laugh at the sameness.
I wonder if the ASG and Sund told Joe that they would continue to "add" like BK told him some 5 years ago? I wonder if they told Drew that the roster would be even slightly different or that they would try to keep it virtually identical? Bottom line, I wonder if guys are cool with having the same teammates or if someone is grousing right now (other than northcyde's depiction of Horford's reaction). I hope these guys are slap-happy excited about the transactions of the past 5 weeks. If nothing else, they won't have to spend money on name tags… the big new guyy is Josh and the little new guy is Crawford. All else is sameness.
July 29th, 2010
9:44 pm
Last Year spots 10-13 – Mario West – now JC2 a rook – better Offense, assuredly worse defense. Maybe better potential for the future.
Joe Smith – now Josh Powell – by almost every measurement, Joe Smith was better than Powell last yr. – see Hoopinion blog.
Jason Collins last year – Jason Collins now 1 year older – probably worse.
Kwame, Josh Boone, Rasho, or Shaq – all are better than RandMo! So this is how we improve or team? Or is RandMo coming back? Or sheer terror – Jarron Collins taking his place so ASG can have the twins angle in marketing!!!!
We got 3m on draft day to spend on 3 veteran bigs – and the 1st two are for the league minimum basically – and the NBA makes you have 13 guys so we have to have 1 more. Somebody – make ASG spend the money, the 3m they said they would – quick – Jeff, Mark, Micheal – all 3, right lead stories on the lie until they spend the money!
July 29th, 2010
9:45 pm
"Right" should be "write" in my previous post – my bad.
July 29th, 2010
9:50 pm
The progression – Yahoo Sports reports that the Hawks are shopping the no.24 pick for 3m. Hawks fans scream bloody murder. Sund then sells the no.31 pick while swapping 24 and 27 with the Nets – 3m pocketed. Sund then says 3m for a vet Big Man – 1 roster spot left – better make it happen. They kick politicians out of office for this kind of stuff! Hawks fans of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains! Ok, so I'm being over dramatic -Northcyde inspired me.
July 29th, 2010
9:57 pm
Let's see, as constituted, with bench – Miami versus the Hawks
C- Hawks 10-7
PF – Heat 10-8
SF – Heat 10-7
SG – Heat 10-9
PG – Hawks 10-9
Total – Heat 46 – Hawks 43 – so unless something weird happens – Heat are just better than us, end of story. And that is being kind to Marvin and Mo' because of Defense.
Bosh and Haslem are just better than Smith/Powell – wish they weren't just a fact.
July 29th, 2010
10:00 pm
Sund never said the $3M would be used to sign a vet big man. He said he sold the #31 pick because he wanted to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans:
"I think we need more veterans," he said. "We are one of the youngest teams in the league still. I think we need to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans."
And whaddya know – they have. Last time I checked, Powell and Collins were veterans.
It was fans obsessed with ASG's spending habits that connected the $3M to signing more expensive veterans. Sund never said it. He never even came close to saying it.
July 29th, 2010
10:02 pm
Bulls – Hawks – match up:
C- Hawks 10-7
PF – Hawks 10-9 (some will disagree with that)
SF – Bulls 10-9
SG – Hawks 10-8
PG – Bulls 10-6 (almost 5)
End results – Bulls 44 Hawks 45 – almost equal – and that is ranking Josh over Boozer/Gibson – and Horford/ZaZa way over Noah/Thomas – the case could easily be made that the Bulls are better than the Hawks.
July 29th, 2010
10:05 pm
The point of the above posts are that the Hawks must improve – treading water is going backwards in this league – we traded out West for JC2
We switched Smith for Josh Powell
And that's it – you don't win in this league unless you improve
Some think Drew for Woody is the magic formula, but you've gotta have the players….
July 29th, 2010
10:05 pm
You really think JJ/Crawford is only a 10-8 over Ronnie Brewer/Kyle Korver????????? What??????? I'm sorry, but that's at least a 10-6.
July 29th, 2010
10:12 pm
I really think that the Hawks are one of only 3-4 teams in the NBA that can boast:
1) Four All-Star caliber players (Joe, Al, Josh, Jamal); and
2) Eight guys total (+ Marvin, Bibby, Mo, Zaza) who would be rotation players on pretty much any team in the league.
Even if you knock #2 down to 7 guys because you loathe one of the four players, the combo would still hold true. And the guys at spots 9 to 11 – Teague, Powell, and Jordan – are not slouches either.
I don't know if familiarity just breeds contempt, but it's something I came to believe more and more as I watched the team last year. The Hawks have the talent to compete with any team in the NBA with the possible exception of the Lakers. In my view, this is a championship-caliber roster that was being held back by a terrible coach. That's not to say that I don't think the roster can be improved – I still want to see the Hawks sign a decent-sized SF to back up Marvin. But I think this roster is way, way better than people give it credit for.
As I said, I think familiarity breeds contempt.
July 29th, 2010
10:14 pm
niremetal – hope your right on Brewer/Korver – but i probably went a little high on Powell/Smith over Gibson/Boozer – and I'm gonna hunt for that story by Sund – let you know if I find it.
July 29th, 2010
10:17 pm
Niremetal – don't think Jamal is quite all star calibre – just below, but not quite.
July 29th, 2010
10:37 pm
Sund said the focus would getting bigs for the last three roster spots. That's good news to Al, who thinks the Hawks definitely need to acquire a bona fide center.
Niremetal – that is the quote – we have to have 13 guys per league rules – so the 3m should be on top of the League Minimum – and he said he wanted bigs for the last 3 roster spots – So 2+2=4 Spend the 3m on vets – last 3 roster spots bigs – so 3m on top of what the league requires on a vet bigs – He said it
July 29th, 2010
10:44 pm
Where did he say that the $3M would be used for that purpose? Where?
You say he said it, but he never did. All he said was that he wanted to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans. He never, ever tied "filling out the rest of the roster with veterans" to the $3M. Never.
July 29th, 2010
10:54 pm
"Bosh and Haslem are just better than Smith/Powell – wish they weren't just a fact."
I am with you on the Heat being a better team than the Hawks; their 2nd best player is better than anyone the Hawks have. But Bosh does not do a single thing better than Smoove other than scoring. On a team that already has two of the best scorers in the league, Bosh's main contribution is going to have to be in defense, toughness, and rebounding; he has never been tough or a good defender, and his rebounding stats are way inflated thanks to playing on a team where nobody else was interested in rebounding.
July 29th, 2010
11:07 pm
He said he sold the #31 pick because he wanted to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans:
Niremetal – the above quote is from you a few posts up. Sund would not have to sell the #31 pick to fill out the roster with veterans – he is required by league rules to have 13 guys on the team. He could have traded the #31 for a veteran big – or traded it for a future 2nd etc. – but he sold it. Why? To fill out the rest of the roster with veterans – bigs to be exact (see above post) – spending the 3 mill. on them! That's when he said it. I'm not following your logic – are you saying Sund sold #31 to add 3 guys at the minimum? You already said he sold it because we needed more veterans. Now you have been shown he meant 3 veteran bigs. Now your using some kind of logic that says he sold it so we would not use it? I guess that is what your are saying? Instead of trading and early 2nd for a valuable piece – 2 future 2nds etc.? Speak up and tell us what you mean.
July 29th, 2010
11:23 pm
Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster.
"I think we need more veterans," he said. "We are one of the youngest teams in the league still. I think we need to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans."
And we later find out those veterans would be bigs. Did he sell the #31 pick to pocket the money or too spend over and above the league minimum on the last 3 players? 2 of the last 3 roster spots have been for the league minimum basically – so 1 to go to spend the 3m over and above the vet minimum – let's see if they do or have we been lied to?
July 29th, 2010
11:36 pm
The "logic" in your post is based on a bunch of assumptions that you take for granted; in other words, there are big gaps in your logic. The biggest one is the one I've said already: Sund never made any connection whatsoever between the $3M and the last three roster spots. None. Ever. He DID make a connection between trading away the #31 pick and the last 3 roster spots, but he never said that what the cash the Hawks acquired in that trade would be used to fill out the roster.
Maybe my use of the word "sold" is what's throwing you. So I'll put it a different way: Sund said that the Hawks got rid of the #31 pick (rather than keeping it) because he wanted to fill the last three roster spots with veterans. The alternative to getting rid of the pick was using the pick to draft a rookie who would take one of the last 3 roster spots instead of the veteran. Sund said that instead, those roster spots are going to go to veteran players instead of rookies (or other "young" players).
Now, of course, the Hawks did not simply give away the #31 pick. They sold it. But that does not mean that the $3M that they acquired in the trade was earmarked to be used for any particular purpose, and Sund never said that it was. The $3M from the trade could have been earmarked for a thousand different possible purposes. That could have been the money the Hawks needed to pay Joe's new max salary. Or it could have been the money needed to pay off a debt to a supplier/landlord/etc. It could have been to make sure that the Hawks pays its share of necessary maintenance costs at Phillips Arena. Or for marketing/advertising. Or for some combination of all of those things. Sund never, ever, ever said that it was going to be used to sign more expensive veterans to fill out the bench; that is one of the thousand possible uses for the money, and it's the one that you and some other fans seem to think it SHOULD be used for, but Sund never said that that's what it WOULD be used for.
And where are you getting veteran BIGS from?? No one said that except you. I follow your logic on that even less than I follow your logic tying the $3M to signing more expensive veterans.
July 29th, 2010
11:40 pm
Let me use an analogy that, while not directly on point, might make my point clearer still. Let's say I own an ice cream shop that sells ice cream and fruit sorbet. The sorbet and ice cream are made with different machines. One day in July, I look at my sales numbers and realize that in past years, I always have my best sales months in June-August, and that sales drop off quickly after that. During September and October in past years, I usually have trouble paying the bills because of the sales dip. I also look at my receipts and realize that at any time of year, the ice cream sells way better than the sorbet. So I decide to sell my sorbet-making equipment and focus exclusively on making ice cream. So I sell the sorbet-making equipment for $3k and tell my employees that I have sold the sorbet equipment because I decided to focus exclusively on selling ice cream from now on.
Now some of my associates might have hoped that the $3k from the sale of the sorbet stuff would be used to buy more expensive (and, in their eyes, better) ice cream equipment. And since the $3k was acquired at the time I got rid of the sorbet equipment, it might even be tempting to assume that that's what I would use that $3k for. But I never said that. I just said that I had sold the equipment because I wanted to focus exclusively on making ice cream. It might be that I needed to set the $3k aside to pay the bills during the lean months of the fall and winter, and that the money from the sorbet-making equipment was for that.
Just as my statement that I sold the sorbet because I decided to only sell ice cream does not indicate that the sale of the sorbet equipment would go to get more expensive ice cream making equipment, Sund's statement that the Hawks traded/sold the draft pick because he decided to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans does not mean that the money from the sale of the pick was earmarked to sign more expensive veterans.
July 29th, 2010
11:49 pm
The belowed the entire quote from MC article. Which is why I think so many bloggers are tying the 3 mil from the 31st pick to signing FAs…
'While the Hawks could have selected a project center or wing with that pick, Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster.
"I think we need more veterans," he said. "We are one of the youngest teams in the league still. I think we need to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans."
July 29th, 2010
11:52 pm
*Below is the entire quote from MC article.
July 29th, 2010
11:55 pm
You're right that that's what the original article said, and I don't doubt that was a part of it. But unless there is a part of the quote that MC left out (which is possible, but it would be odd that he excluded it if he included the rest of that sound byte), it strikes me that MC simply fell into the same "trap" that the ice cream store associates did in the story above. MC asked Sund why the Hawks made the trade where they gave up the #31 pick for $3M. Sund responded "I think we need more veterans . . . we need to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans." MC interpreted that as "the $3M from the pick would be used for that purpose" even though that's not what Sund actually said.
I actually will email MC about this when I get back, and I'll include the ice cream analogy just to be safe . It is possible that there's more to the quote that does suggest the money was earmarked for that purpose. If so, I'll say "my bad." But I think that sentence, which has caused so much angst, was MC unintentionally letting his assumptions seep into the article.
July 29th, 2010
11:56 pm
* I don't doubt that was a part of the reason why Hawks fans connect the two.
Come to think of it, I think that might be the MAIN reason why Hawks fans think that, which is why I'll email MC when he returns…
July 30th, 2010
12:20 am
Niremetal – MC connected the two. Horford looked forward to the new bigs – if no more money than the vet min. used, we could have had the same vet bigs – Collins, Smith, and RandMo – so obviously he (Horford) was connecting the two.
And in your below post – he could have done anything with the number 31 pick besides sell it – trade it for a future pick – trade it for a marketable player etc.
You said he wanted vets – never bigs – I showed you were wrong, that the last 3 vets were to be bigs.
I showed you that Sund implied, that MC took it that way, and that Horford took it that way, that the 3m was to be spent over and above the vet minimums.
Problem admitting your wrong? Looks like it to me.
Maybe my use of the word "sold" is what's throwing you. So I'll put it a different way: Sund said that the Hawks got rid of the #31 pick (rather than keeping it) because he wanted to fill the last three roster spots with veterans. The alternative to getting rid of the pick was using the pick to draft a rookie who would take one of the last 3 roster spots instead of the veteran. Sund said that instead, those roster spots are going to go to veteran players instead of rookies (or other "young" players).
I will repeat the story – yahoo sports reported that the Hawks were shopping their 1st pick for 3m. The fan base squawked – look up the blogs.
Sund then sells the 1st pick in a back door way – while pulling a coup and still getting a 1st pick. To cover, he says the 3m is not for the owners – but will be spent to obtain veteran bigs. End of story.
Now I don't care if ASG takes the 3m and smokes dope with it – I do care that to cover, they claim it will be used on veteran bigs, over and above what the League requires them to have, when in reality they lost 20m this year and wanted money.
And you can parse words and phrases and slight inaccuracies all you want and defend the lie (to this point, they may sign a veteran big like Shaq, Kwame, or Josh Boone with the cash) – but that's the truth – deal with it!
July 30th, 2010
12:26 am
You're accusing me of parsing words? You should be a ghostwriter for Oliver Stone with that stuff, man.
July 30th, 2010
12:28 am
Niremetal – I think in a court of law, it would be interpreted in a way that MC, Horford, myself, and a ton of Hawks fans have interpreted it as well.
MC asked Sund why the Hawks made the trade where they gave up the #31 pick for $3M. Sund responded "I think we need more veterans . . . we need to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans." MC interpreted that as "the $3M from the pick would be used for that purpose" even though that's not what Sund actually said.
Dude, the whole fanbase whose been following this issue this summer is waiting for Sund to spend the cash. That's been the impression given to the fans. Spend the cash for veterans, later defined as bigs, to help this team!
July 30th, 2010
12:31 am
Why would Horford be excited about bigs, when we had 3 scrub bigs from last year, unless he was under the impression the 3m would be used for better bigs?
So last year we have 3 scrub bigs basically, for the vet minimum – and Sund is giving Hawks fans hope with 3 more scrub bigs at the vet minimum? Doc, it just doesn't make sense.
July 30th, 2010
12:38 am
Niremetal – you've been shown wrong on a few accounts on this issue – it's ok if you won't admit it. I enjoy most of your posts – very informative and well thought out. But nobody hits a HR everytime. Face it, Yahoo sports reports it – Hawks deny it – Sund implies at best, says it at worst, that we really didn't need the money – going to be spent for vet bigs – and their hoping the fanbase forgets. Let's move on – I'm just wanting the Hawks to be a winner – the East has improved alot, except for the Cavs – I don't want us hoping to be a top 4 seed – I see us with a chance to be a contender – I just don't want ASG lying – and getting the fan base this close and then going cheap.
Again, I'll say it – if ASG wanted to sell the pick and put it on the National debt, that's their business. Just don't spin it that your getting the cash to better the team because of a public outcry – and then hope the fanbase forgets. Call them out on it – it's for the good of the team.
July 30th, 2010
12:40 am
You're just become a pest at this point:
Problem admitting your wrong? Looks like it to me.
Show me where Sund connected the $3M with spending more money on veterans. Then I'll admit I'm wrong.
Dude, the whole fanbase whose been following this issue this summer is waiting for Sund to spend the cash.
Thanks for saying what I've been saying. The fanbase (or rather, certain segments of the fanbase obsessed with the Hawks' spending habits) thought that's what Sund meant. I'm saying that the fanbase's interpretation is based on a single quote by Rick Sund that did not, in fact, connect the cash with signing more expensive veterans.
I think in a court of law, it would be interpreted in a way that MC, Horford, myself, and a ton of Hawks fans have interpreted it as well.
1) Please, don't tell me what a court of law would say. First off, you're coming at this from the wrong angle. The issue in court wouldn't be "what does this quote mean." Courts aren't given open-ended questions like that. They are not permitted to do so. The parties must frame specific issues for the court to resolve. The issue would be "I think that this quote by X was a statement of his intent to Y. Does a preponderance of the evidence support that interpretation?" Everything about the fanbase's opinions would be excluded on relevancy and hearsay grounds because what other people think about what Person X should/would do is not relevant evidence of Person X's actual intent.
2) Please, PLEASE tell me where Horford said that. Horford has said that he wants more frontcourt help. As far as I know, he hasn't commented on the draft day trade at ALL much less said that he believes Sund said that the money from the trade would be used to acquire more expensive veterans.
July 30th, 2010
12:43 am
You are not separating two very distinct things:
1) What Rick Sund and other people in the Hawks' front office have actually said they will or should do; and
2) What other people think about what Rick Sund and the Hawks' front office will or should do.
Do you understand that there is a difference between those two things? Because your posts continually cite things that in category #2 as if they are part of category #1.
July 30th, 2010
12:45 am
you've been shown wrong on a few accounts on this issue
You should meet a guy from College Park that I know. Something tells me you two would get along real well…
July 30th, 2010
12:59 am
I assume because he shows you that you are wrong, and you have a basic inability to admit it?
Ok, Horford had Jason Collins, Joe Smith and RandMo to help he, Josh, and ZaZa in the post. You tell me what he meant when he said he was looking forward to more help. Answer the question.
You said that Sund just wanted veterans, not necessarily bigs to fill out the roster. You were shown that the vets would be bigs – wrong again.
MC assumed that's what Sund meant – and he was there, and you were not – MC wrong and your right?
Assuming what the fanbase wants, and what Sund ASG said are 2 different things – of course – I am going by what MC said Sund was saying about the deal not the fanbase – we both know the fanbase can be whacked out.
And why do you ignore the whole Yahoo Sports report scenario – doesn't fit your view?
July 30th, 2010
1:00 am
I suspect I am becoming a pest, because you are wrong, and don't won't to admit it….
July 30th, 2010
1:08 am
'Sources say that this is the reason Atlanta is willing to sell its first-round pick for $3 million this summer'
From Yahoo sports April 26th
July 30th, 2010
1:13 am
Moving down three spots in the first round saves the Hawks about $190,000 for the two guaranteed years of Crawford's contract. They also sold the rights to German center Tibor Pleiss to Oklahoma City for close to $3 million, the maximum amount allowable under salary-cap rules.
While the Hawks could have selected a project center or wing with that pick, Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster.
"I think we need more veterans," he said. "We are one of the youngest teams in the league still. I think we need to fill out the rest of the roster with veterans."
In a brilliant move – they get a 1st rounder and still come out with 3m for selling the 31st pick and the savings between the slot of the 24th pick and the 27th pick
July 30th, 2010
1:16 am
According to Michael Cunningham of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Hawks co-owner Michael Gearon Jr. says team is not looking to sell draft pick. Gearon said they "haven't had that conversation with anyone" about the draft pick.
MC's Twitter -= April 29th
July 30th, 2010
1:19 am
It's also going to be interesting to see what the Hawks do as far as Al's contract extension. The Hawks can offer him one that begins in 2011-12 and is worth up to five years and $82 million. The deadline for a deal is Oct. 31.
Al had said he knew the Hawks would take care of J.J. first. Now that they did, would he like to talk to them about an extension?
"We'll see," he said. "If the time is right. It is something that I will have to talk to my agent about. I know that the priority for the team was to re-sign Joe. We will see what happens the rest of the summer as far as the free agents if they are trying to get anybody else."
Horford obviously wants some other Free Agents before he commits to this team! Can anybody say 3m from draft day?
July 30th, 2010
1:25 am
The reason you are like him is because you say you have "shown" or "proven" something when in reality, all you have done is presented your opinion and declared it proven. You don't seem to understand the difference between opinion (which cannot be "shown" or "proven") and fact (which can be).
Of equal concern – and something you still haven't addressed – is that you don't seem to get the difference between 1) what Sund and the Hawks said and 2) what other people said. This just perfectly sums up what you've been doing:
"We'll see," he said. "If the time is right. It is something that I will have to talk to my agent about. I know that the priority for the team was to re-sign Joe. We will see what happens the rest of the summer as far as the free agents if they are trying to get anybody else."
Horford obviously wants some other Free Agents before he commits to this team! Can anybody say 3m from draft day?
In the name of everything that is holy, where did you get the idea that Al was somehow referring to the $3M from draft day? He didn't mention it ANYWHERE and yet you STILL cite that as if it is!
I need to get to bed, because I have a day job starting in 7.5 hours. Do you what my day job is, btw? Reading through people's arguments (sometimes backed up by credible evidence, sometimes not), analyzing them, and finding logical gaps.
July 30th, 2010
1:26 am
Sund said the focus would getting bigs for the last three roster spots. That's good news to Al, who thinks the Hawks definitely need to acquire a bona fide center.
"We need to get another big guy, another center, that's able to help myself and Josh out," he said. "We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East."
Al said he doesn't necessarily mean getting a center to supplant him as the starter so he can move to power forward. Rather, it could be a scenario where the new center plays a lot of minutes and L.D. can mix and match from among the new guy, Al, Josh, Zaza and any other big guys Sund adds (a Jason Collins return is a possibility if he gets in better shape).
And here, Horford is expecting an impact player at the Center spot – said had to have it if they were going to be any type of contender in the East.
So connecting the dots – Hawks try to sell 1st pick – fans react negatively.
Hawks sell 31st pick, while still obtaining a 1st pick in a master stroke.
Sund says the 3m will be used to upgrade with vets – defined in above as vet bigs.
Horford says this is necessary for the Hawks to be a contender in the East.
1st 2 vet bigs – Powell, whom hoopinions shows is statistically worse than Joe Smith
Jason Collins 2.0
Only 1 shot left…
July 30th, 2010
1:30 am
Your day job is obviously not answering questions that are brought to you – because you defintely aren't doing that in this case.
Like I said – you parse words, swallowing a camel while straining at a gnat.
Horford never said 3m – he said what other Free Agents we pursue – we already had league minimum free agents – what do you think he meant, and what money would the Hawks use to go above the league minimum and get an impact Center that Horford requested?
July 30th, 2010
1:33 am
The cut and paste quotes above are certainly not my opinion – can you not get a grip? So used to looking for logical fallacies, you lost an understanding of truth? The facts speak for themselves – but it is your choice whether you believe them or not.
You can believe the lie that Horford is wanting a quality Center for the vet minimum, just like last year?
You can believe the lie that MC misunderstood Sund about spending the 3m, even though he was there and you were not.
Choice is yours – maybe learn to answer questions instead of looking at logical fallacies on blogs, and get the truth instead of logical fallacies.
July 30th, 2010
1:49 am
Niremetal – I mean, what facts do you deny? Which are my opinion and I state them as facts?
1) Did Yahoo sports report on April 26th that ATL was shopping it's 1st pick? Fact or opinion?
2) Was there a negative fan backlash? Fact or opinion?
3) Did Micheal Gearon Jr. refute the shopping of the 1st pick on MC's Twitter on April 29th? Fact or opinion?
4) Did the Hawks recieve the equivalent of selling the 1st pick bsically, by selling the 31st pick, and the savings of the slotting between the 24th pick and the 27th pick – fact or opinion?
5) Did MC report that in context, Sund indicated that the 3m as to be used on vets, later identified as vet bigs -and MC was there present – fact or opinion?
6) Did Horford say he was waiting to see what other Free Agents that ATL pursued before contemplating his future – fact or opinion?
7) Did Horford say we needed an impact Center to be a conteder in the East – fact or opinion?
If we have to have 13 guys per league rules – and we had 3 vet bigs at the league minimum – wouldn't you assume that Horford was talking about something other than vet minimum players? And if so, what money would ATL use to acquire them? The 3m! Fact or opinion?
So what is opinion masquerading as fact? – fact, you have been shown wrong on multiple accounts, and your pride of your day job finding logical fallacies in other peoples arguements refuses to allow you to admit it. God bless!
July 30th, 2010
2:40 am
Niremetal – all this has actually turned funny – so I'll continue – remember saying this?
It was fans obsessed with ASG's spending habits that connected the $3M to signing more expensive veterans. Sund never said it. He never even came close to saying it.
MC sure thought he said it – 'While the Hawks could have selected a project center or wing with that pick, Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster'.
And remember saying,
"And where are you getting veteran BIGS from?? No one said that except you."
Then you were shown the quote
"Sund said the focus would getting bigs for the last three roster spots". OOops on your part!
July 30th, 2010
2:54 am
"and the Hawks told him how much they wanted him back while outlining their plans to improve the team."
Remember this quote told to JJ to get him to sign? That's another reason we've been expecting improvement, not just change. Crawford over West, Powell over Smith, and jason Collins 2.0 ain't a huge plan for change is it?
July 30th, 2010
2:55 am
Nirematal – your cool – keep up the good well informed posts – I appreciate them! Later…
July 30th, 2010
3:15 am
July 30th, 2010
3:23 am
3 Million Point of View!
It seems to me, as I recall it: That Sund indicated the 3M would be used to pay the Luxury Tax from going over the Salary Cap, which wasn't set at that time.
Now, that the new cap is in place? I have seen NO attempts to broach it. I recall, it being said that Sund wanted a veteran big and NOT a draft project. Gearon said he would pay the
Luxury Tax in a heart beat to sign LeBron! (Insert a Stern Fine here).
But, I specifically recall that 3M was to pay the Luxury Tax for our supposed big helper to help this team. With all the comments bantied about and very little if any comments from the ASG, I may have read that in a MC Blog article.
Oh well, potatoe – Potato! We got the same needs today that Mr. Woodson had the past 6 years.
July 30th, 2010
4:41 am
@ drmaryb . . . . I don't know if Sund threw that out there himself, but I know I thought that's what it was going to be used for. I thought for sure that when he sold that pick, that he would ( or could ) use it to pay any luxury tax we'd get into by signing those offseason free agents.
Then again, maybe this is what Niremetal is talking about. All of us had our ideas of what that 3 million could be used for.
July 30th, 2010
7:43 am
That script was hilarious and a well needed comic relief to the blog! Sometimes, if you don't laugh at this stuff? You will cry. I wish we could cry us a back-up Center!
July 30th, 2010
7:58 am
Why don't the City of Atlanta have a reporter that will actually call the ASG on all of their "mis-truths"? Why don't we have a reporter that will ask about the issues that frustrate the average Hawks fan? The Hawks have lied to us. They have put together the cheapest bench possible with absolutely no regard for talent or needs.
When MC is taking a vacation, is their no one else at the AJC to cover the Hawks?
July 30th, 2010
8:30 am
I think us (fans and media) all assumed (based on Sund's comments) that the money would go towards significant roster upgrades. Even Al and Josh were asking for such (more help down low).
And when Sund resigned JJ, he said it was just the beginning. Llittle did we know that Josh Powell and Collins would be the continuation. I wonder who is the end (13th roster spot).
It is interesting to note that there were reports of the Hawks selling their first round pick leading up to the draft. But I don't think Sund specifically said what they would use the money for.
On other notes, Boston signed Von Wafer to a one year deal. Didn't we talk about him last off-season?
July 30th, 2010
9:05 am
Northcyde and O'Brien
MC said Sund "indicated" that he would spend the 3m to upgrade the roster in this quote from an interview with Sund:
'While the Hawks could have selected a project center or wing with that pick, Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster'.
So we as fans are not assuming this – MC said Sund told him that's what he was going to do with it. Niremetal's point is he thinks MC misunderstood Sund.
July 30th, 2010
9:06 am
Ooops – "indicated" should be "suggested" in the above post – my bad.
July 30th, 2010
9:14 am
These two quotes by Al Horford should scare any Hawks fan who wants Al to stay with the team during Free Agency:
"Al had said he knew the Hawks would take care of J.J. first. Now that they did, would he like to talk to them about an extension?"
"We'll see," he said. "If the time is right. It is something that I will have to talk to my agent about. I know that the priority for the team was to re-sign Joe. We will see what happens the rest of the summer as far as the free agents if they are trying to get anybody else."
- Al only wants to come back if we get good FA's – he was not talking about vet minimum guys – you have to have 13 players per league rules – can anybody say "Uh-oh"?
We need to get another big guy, another center, that's able to help myself and Josh out," he said. "We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East."
- Al says we need another center to be any type of contender in the East – we had Jason Collins last year, so he obviously wasn't speaking of him. Can anybody say "uh-oh" again?
July 30th, 2010
9:33 am
I think the other part missing in the latest canniblogging battle, is that the Hawks big man depth issue seemingly can't be improved with minimum waged players. Simply bringing in Powell and Collins doesn't feel like a significant improvement with $3M sitting on the table. I think some fans jumped to the unfortunate conclusion that adding more vets on the heels of obtaining $3M would mean, "adding better/more expensive vets". Instead, we got sameness. Powell (a better rebounder but maybe not a better player than Joe Smith) and Collins (who will likely report to camp in much better condition). The good news is that Hawks fans (some) still actually believe that the GM is looking to improve the team during the off-season and that there will be financial support to aid him in that quest. A fan base with lofty expectations of players, coaches, GM and ownership is a good thing. Sameness has not yet extinguished the flame of hope and optimism.
July 30th, 2010
9:40 am
Here's another analogy. You've been eating Spam everyday for dinner for the past month. Old fashioned, meat-in-a-can Spam. Your wife sells a piece of family jewelry valued at $5,000 and says "I am tired of eating old fashioned Spam everyday for dinner". So the husband is thinking "thank goodness, maybe we can at least have some spaghetti or meatloaf for dinner for a change". And the wife walks in with Turkey Spam. It's newer (Powell) and has less saturated fat (the new Collins) but its still a variation of Spam.
July 30th, 2010
9:45 am
You did it again…. Kicking my desk laughing so hard….
You are a pitbull…lol
Look like SteveW ain't giving in…lol
July 30th, 2010
9:59 am
I'm assuming that the Hawks' front office is supposed to be the wife. The problem is that the Hawks' front office never expressed dissatisfaction with the veterans (or, for that matter, the rookie) on the roster last year. On the contrary, Gearon said that he thought Joe Smith and Jason Collins were mis-/under-utilized by Woody:
Gearon said the Hawks' offense too often stagnated because of poor ball movement. He said he also thinks rookie point guard Jeff Teague should have played more minutes this season and veterans Joe Smith and Jason Collins should have played bigger roles in the Orlando series.
Nonetheless, the Spam analogy seems oddly fitting for Jason Collins…
July 30th, 2010
10:02 am
Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster'.
Guys, the above quote comes from MC – he knows.
April 26th – Yahoo Sports says ATL shopping 1st pick
-Fan outrage over cheap ASG
April 29th – Micheal Gearon Jr. denies ATL shopping 1st pick
June 25th – Sund pulls a coup and gets selling 1st pick money, and still gets a 1st pick keeping both sides happy – fans and ASG
Sund overplays his hand and suggests the 3m will be used for veteran bigs – obvious implication is over and above vet minimum pay, because you gotta have 13 guys regardless
From then until now – Sund called on it, and hopefully will continue to be by fans and AJC until he pony's up the cash to make us a contender!
See Horford quote – "We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East."
We only have 1 more spot to make this happen, if ASG only wants to carry 13
July 30th, 2010
10:04 am
I agree with Astro and Obrien. I think a lot us (fans and media) was assuming that the 3mil would be used to acquire above the vet min free agents. Although Sund did indicate that the money would be used to offset the luxury tax prior to the new salary cap was establish for the upcoming season. I think the Hawks (like many others) were assuming the salary cap would go down and they would have to spend into luxury tax to field the required 13 man roster. Upon everyone surprise, the salary cap went up therefore it may have change the intent on how to spend/used the 3 mil acquired. Just my two cents…
July 30th, 2010
10:06 am
MC said again, for clarity's sake – "Sund suggested the money earned from selling the pick would be used to add proven players to the roster'. " 3m, over and above vet minimum guys – because you have to have 13 players minimum to have a team.
Sund wasn't saying we are going to use this 3m or the Hawks will shut down, was he? Of course not.
Guys, don't give them a pass – call them on it!!!
July 30th, 2010
10:09 am
nire, I can only hope that the sameness was a decision made by the basketball expert (Sund) and not ownership. I suspect that Sund saw more practices and had a better understanding of player capabilities than Gearon could ever understand.
July 30th, 2010
10:13 am
Steve W,
Unfortunately, as fans, all we will get from ownership and GM is:
1) "we like our core"
2) "we were not going to overpay for certain guys"
3) "Woody was the problem, so the same guys will be better under Drew"
July 30th, 2010
10:14 am
SteveW & Niremental
I think you two already spent that 3 Million Dollars between last night and this morning.
Let's Move on. We have spent more time on this team all summer than the Hawks have in 6 years.
And like Astro Joe said: Same Ole – Same Ole! If we had a new player on this team? At least we would have something new to talk about. But, as things stand, not a darn thing is going on over at Phillips Arena –
And, that's the real story here.
Aye …. ASKG! Mr. Woodson was NOT your only problem here – You are!
Build your damn team … Build it and they will come!
July 30th, 2010
10:21 am
STEVEW-Horford didn't say the "TEAM" needed more help with rebounding. He said "HE AND JSMITH" needed more help. That tells me he was suggesting MWilliams should become more consistent with his rebounding, since he's the only other starter that could give he and Josh the rebounding help he felt was needed.
I wouldn't say that CBosh is better then JSmith either, although he's considered better offensively at this point. Here's why I say that. Last yr CBosh had 1158 FGA in 70gms and averaged 24PPG, 10.8RPG, 2.04APG, .97BPG and .61SPG.
JSmith had 999FGA in 81GMS and averaged 15.7PPG, 8.7RPG, 4.2APG, 2.14BPG and 1.6SPG.
Here's a breakdown of each players combined OFF contributions to their respective teams last yr. Bosh(JSmith)
CBosh-2.4APG(4.2) x 2pts=4.8PPG(8.4)+24PPG(15.7)=28.8(24.1)combined average contribution per gm.
This demonstrates that offensively CBosh contributed a combined 4.7PPG more than JSmith, but it took him 159 more FGA's in 11 fewer gms to produce that 4.7PPG advantage. You must also consider that CBosh was Toronto's #1 scoring option, while JSmith was the Hawks #2 or #3 scoring option. There's no question JSmith is a far superior DEF player, and he still has room for overall improvement, while CBosh has peeked.
As far as AHaslem being better than JPowell, can't argue with that, at least at this point. Remember, this is the same AHaslem that the Hawks cut out of training camp a few yrs back. JPowell could very easily end up being just as good as Haslem, if not better, if he consistently gets the mins and opportunity to demonstrate what he can do.
THIS IS NOT A CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER ROSTER AT THIS POINT, AND THE HAWKS AREN'T READY TO BE AN NBA TITLE CONTENDER. There are simply too many unknowns that need to be resolved, like:
1-What can we expect from PG JTeague,
2-How effective will MBibby be in our new DEF system, and/or if he comes off the bench,
3-What can we expect from MWilliams in LDrews new OFF,
4-How effective will our new DEF approach be against teams with a strong inside presence, like the Magic and Lakers,
5-How effective will JSmith and AHorford be in LDrew and LConnor's new OFF/DEF systems,
6-How effective will JPowell and a slimmer, better conditioned JCollins be off the bench,
7-How much of an improvement can we expect from the hiring of HC LDrew and his top assistant LConner,
8-How effective will JaCrawford and JoCrawford be in our new OFF/DEF systems?
Until we've answered these questions, it just wouldn't make sense to break the bank trying to sign high priced players before training camp even starts.
July 30th, 2010
10:29 am
DRMARYB-one of your excellent points stood out to me. While Woodson certainly had his problems and held the team back in a number of ways, he can't be blamed for a fractured ownership group and their legal issues. He did have to function at a total disadvantage in that area.
July 30th, 2010
10:39 am
I received this email today. I'm guessing that there are 20+ other teams that are using the Heat as a promotional tool. Kind of sad in a way to use a division rival's fortunes to promote your team. But you have to use what you got to get what you want. In this case, using Powell and JoCrawford to drive ticket sales would probably not be the ideal marketing plan.
Hawks Fans,
Guarantee yourself tickets to the HOTTEST game in Atlanta this upcoming Hawks season! Right now through this offer only we are taking $200 deposits that will guarantee yourself tickets to either one of the two Hawks vs. Heat games this coming season (no ticket minimum required). You will be able to select your seats before they even go on sale to the general public.
The $200 that you are putting down today will then be used toward the balance of the tickets you choose. Tickets for this game are in the highest demand we have ever seen here in Atlanta so don't miss this limited opportunity.
This is a limited time offer that will absolutely end Friday August 6th COB. Don't miss your opportunity to get Hawks vs. Heat tickets for this upcoming season. I can promise you there won't be a second chance to lock this up. This is a special presale we are doing for only PA Insider companies and their employees!
July 30th, 2010
10:47 am
Here is another angle at The Truth regarding what we thought Sund meant with the 3M. From my Sys Eng'ing days, it's looking at input vs. output. Instead of trying to translate someone else's comments risking misinterpretation. Just simply look at the output of the GM past and present actions or inactions (his inputs). It is what it is. What you see is what we have. Someone's actions or inactions will speak much louder the words or comments or quotes or misquotes. However for some, even this may not work because of opinion blindness but it least it's another attempt at blog sanity.
July 30th, 2010
10:53 am
Ken Strickland – I was including Haslem versus Powell in the PF look between the Heat and the Hawks. Hoopinion showed statistically that Powell was actually inferior to Joe Smith.
Also Ken, here is Horford's quote – "We need to get another big guy, another center, that's able to help myself and Josh out," he said. "We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East."
He said we need another Center, someone to come in, not Marvin Williams to step up rebounding, even though that would obviously be nice.
July 30th, 2010
10:57 am
Ken Strickland – hope your correct on Powell. I hope he develops into a great player. Maybe Gattison can help with that.
Also, just wanted to reiterate, I never said that Bosh was a whole lot better than Josh Smith. I love Josh's style of play, his high flying athleticism, great defense, passing etc. Man, if he could do that, and have Bosh's professionalism…well, he wouldn't be Josh Smith would he?
July 30th, 2010
11:00 am
The Truth – sometimes I think some of you guys work for ASG. Why cover? That was in the MC column – he knows. Nobody is making this up. Did he ever ask MC to retract what was written? Most guys I know in public read what is said about them to make sure there are no misrepresentations.
July 30th, 2010
11:03 am
"You should meet a guy from College Park that I know. Something tells me you two would get along real well…"
He will never admit when he's wrong, so don't even waste you time. You are correct. This is the same guy who tried to convince me that Marvin Williams was the next Scottie Pippen two years ago. I wonder who was correct?
Ken Strickland,
"STEVEW-Horford didn't say the "TEAM" needed more help with rebounding. He said "HE AND JSMITH" needed more help. That tells me he was suggesting MWilliams should become more consistent with his rebounding, since he's the only other starter that could give he and Josh the rebounding help he felt was needed."
If you actually think that Horford, was talking about Marvin Williams in that quote then you are more delusional than I previously thought. None of the top guys on this team respect Marvin's game enough to expect anything more from Marvin, as proven by them "freezing him out" or, not including him in the offense as you would say. If you play with a guy who consistently under performs, you would actually be a fool to expect him to over perform on a consistent basis.
The Hawks promote their team by using other teams in the league to draw fans. It is pretty pathetic. I have been a season ticket holder for the past 6 years, and they can count me out as long as they continue to trout out this Marvin Williams character, and continue with this "core" crap.
July 30th, 2010
11:10 am
Another voice weighs in on the Hawks' big man depth for the coming season.
"Bad news for fans of youth, possibility, or quality depth".
July 30th, 2010
11:11 am
Lol if you think I work for the ASG. I have been calling at Sund before it was popular. Regarding my last comment, don't wear those shoes if they don't fit you. Actually, I think your prospective regarding this matter makes sense to me. I'm just offering another way at looking at the obvious.
July 30th, 2010
11:13 am
Whatever the ASG wants to use the 3M for? You were NOT going to get any type of Impact player
for 3M or 4M for that matter. You certainly weren't going to get 4 players for 3M or a draft pick of that value per year, especially If you were looking at Daniel Orton, Solomon Alabi, (whose stock fell for + Hepatitis B test result), Hassan Whiteside, etc. All these picks were passed on in round 1 for a reason.
Besides, those three combined couldn't STOP Dwight on a good day! We need to win NOW,
not fiddle around with developing future talent, our team is not only young but also healthy!
Health is NOT guaranteed year in and out, so, now is the time!
Go get Shaq Now, for the love of Basketball! Stop friggin' playing around with every little decision,
It's just a sillý past-time ASG! You guys are NOT solving the economy and World Peace for crying out loud!
Give us a damned team to supporÞ! Geez!
Go Figure!
July 30th, 2010
11:13 am
Correction: "I have been calling out Sund before it was popular"
July 30th, 2010
11:16 am
When did I ever compare Marvin to Pippen? Answer: Never. The only Hawks player I have ever compared to Pippen is JJ. Nice try.
July 30th, 2010
11:27 am
Heh…so much being made over what has been said/quoted, and what has not. Two words:
Plausible Deniability.
It is the bane of fans and reporters alike, and the manna from heaven for any that are in diplomatic situations.
July 30th, 2010
11:30 am
SteveW and Niremetal, THANK YOU! I read this blog, first of all, to fuel my zeal for the Hawks. I have also come to enjoy the diverse personalities represented. But I also read it to observe and score the debate. Your jousting last night and into this morning was very enjoyable. Congratualtions and feel free to tear into each other regularly.
July 30th, 2010
11:33 am
Rev in Tampa,
We ran out of Card Girls between round for Nire/SteveW debate last night/this morning… lol…
July 30th, 2010
11:36 am
Drmaryb – I couldn't agree with your post more, on all counts best I can tell. The only 2 guys left that may have an impact on our season and postseason – Shaq, if healthy, fit, and a good attitude to win a ring or two more before he's done, and
Kwame Brown – if we think we can develop him, which every team trying to do has failed so far. But at least he's another athletic big man that can keep up with Dwight' size and strength.
July 30th, 2010
11:43 am
Assuming we only have 1 roster spot left, I vote for Chris Hunter or Travis Diener. But I would prioritize another big over a PG. At least those 2 guys could easily provide 2nd-unit quality if pushed into service and will likely accept the salary associated with a back-of-the-bench player.
July 30th, 2010
11:47 am
The Truth – good to hear.
I think a good article by Mark, Micheal or Jeff would be – "What did the Hawks do with the 3m. made on Draft Day". Interview Rick Sund – he'll either say – "We'll use it if we feel we can better the team", or "ASG lost 20m last year, and this is too help recover their losses."
My point is as a fan, and I disagree with Ken Strickland on this, is we are close to being a contender, and with the right piece (maybe Shaq?) we can win it all. Look at the scenario's:
What if Wade goes down with an injury? Or he and LeBron get into a fight, and one demands to be traded? I don't think LeBron and Bosh without Wade are going anywhere with the team assembled around them currently.
What if Shaq and ZaZa give Dwight fits, JJ plays like a champion, and no more Barnes to hound him – Teague bothers Jameer – and we beat the Magic?
Read Boston's blogs – the team they fear the most in the East is the Hawks. They feel their "D" can shut down anybody else, but they can't keep up with our athleticism. 4-0 last year (and I know they took the regular season off).
All I'm sayin' is, it seems you said you'd spend the cash – please don't get Jarrod Collins, Alade Aminu, Hendrix, to win this thing – basically we're replacing RandMo (hopefully) with this last signing – get the piece – and ASG makes a ton of money on a better team – and the fans get this thing rockin'! All I'm sayin' guys
July 30th, 2010
11:50 am
Astro Joe – would take Josh Boone over Hunter if we want another smallish Center type – both 6-11 240
July 30th, 2010
11:53 am
Sekou says he's having a get Shaq rally in August for the Hawks fans…..
July 30th, 2010
12:05 pm
I like the idea of Diener offensively – he'd be pretty good at running the offense Drew is setting up, I think. But defensively? Eesh.
Earl Watson would be nice for a Mo Evans type of contract, but I doubt he'd bolt for less than the full MLE (which he isn't worth, I think). Rafer Alston would be nice situationally, but he was unable to beat out Chalmers and Arroyo in Miami last year and caused problems when he decided he wasn't happy with his role. Ironically, the most realistic solution might be Acie Law, whose defense was the one consistently solid thing about him, if memory serves.
At SF, would it be worth it to take out a flyer on Joe Alexander? He crapped out in his first couple years in the league big-time, but he has the size and athleticism to guard the 3 and 4 and should be able to get some cuts to the basket if the offense goes as planned.
Honestly, I'm starting to like the idea of using the TPE to get a piece straight up, because the free agent list at the 2 positions where I think we most need depth (SF and PG) was weak to start with and just depressing now…
July 30th, 2010
12:12 pm
If Hinrich were available, swapping Jamal (or Bibby and Mo) for him would be my ideal trade. Hinrich would be, I think, the ideal PG for this team with Drew's system. But something tells me that not even the Wizards are crazy enough to have a backcourt featuring Arenas, Wall, and Crawford, nor would they be willing to take on Bibby's contract for next year. *sigh*
July 30th, 2010
12:18 pm
As much as I would like for us to win the "Shaq-stakes"; I just don't believe the Hawks has the wherewithal to pull the deal off based on past history. In other words, I won't be attending Sekou's party. My expectation of Shaq's destination is more inline with this bleacher report.
Teams that have shown significant interest include the Boston Celtics, Dallas Mavericks, and Atlanta Hawks. My guess on where Shaq will sign? The Boston Celtics.
July 30th, 2010
12:25 pm
Hinrich and Bibby both have 2 years left on their deal, so that would be a wash. I like the Mo Evans (expiring) and Bibby for Hinrich deal.
July 30th, 2010
12:30 pm
Niremetal . . . what I'm about to say has been said by others.
When you see everything that has gone on this offseason so far, I have to come to the conclusion that the ASG firmly believes that everything was Woody's fault, and that we don't need a personnel upgrade. Not even a minor one.
It's a dangerous mindset that they're taking, in my opinion. If for some odd reason we get off to a slow start ( slightly above .500 record at Christmas and well behind Miami and Orlando ), the rammifications of that could be devastating.
There will be a lot of finger pointing going on by the media, the fans, and possibly by the players themselves.
And if the acquired players turn out to be non-factors ( which I believe they will, regardless of our record ), you now have to seriously start questioning this organization's scouting ability, its ability to get the free agents they want to sign, and its commitment to build a championship caliber team.
And it all goes back to costs and our so-called loyalty to our "core".
And I think it's an ego thing going on here too. They want to prove that it was all Woody's fault. Shoot, they may as well bring back Joe Smith or Mario or Othella Hunter.
July 30th, 2010
12:35 pm
Actually, Bibby + TPE for Hinrich would work too, assuming that the TPE can be used in combination with other players' salaries (Coon's FAQ says no, but most other sources I've found say yes). That would be super-ideal…
July 30th, 2010
12:46 pm
I hate this time of year — we have been reduced to drawing up multi-paragraph analogies to help explain what MIGHT be going through the mind of the most non-proactive GM in the league. Why did Sund sell the pick? Did he intend to sign players? Did he want to sign a big man? Did he intentionally only target big men who shoot under 45% for the season? Did Michael Gearon have a mansion foreclosed somewhere? Who framed Roger Rabbit? How many licks does it take for Lil' Kim to get to the center of the… never mind. Bottom line is the offseason is basically over for this team and they are prepared to go into next season (and possibly beyond) with this basic core of players.
Sund and the DASG's motivation for their actions is not really relevant — certainly not enough to dedicate multiple blog posts to this topic. The important thing to draw from their actions over this offseason is that they are not serious about filling out this team's roster with the kind of quality depth that will give them a realistic shot at even contending for home court in the first round, let alone a title.
July 30th, 2010
12:50 pm
According to Sund, and last years team, our last signing will be a big – unless we decide to carry 14.
We are still almost 3mil. below luxury tax line….
The Truth – probably right….sigh
July 30th, 2010
12:50 pm
"And I think it's an ego thing going on here too. They want to prove that it was all Woody's fault. "
I agree with the rest of your post completely, but if this is actually true they are even bigger idiots than we all think. What better way to stroke their own egos than to show Woody what a real coach can do with this core, which was assembled by… oh yeah, the guy who beat the DASG to the "Fire Woody" idea by two years.
The DASG and Rick Sund have managed to make Billy Knight look like a proactive visionary this offseason.
July 30th, 2010
12:54 pm
I agree with what you've said. I think that ASG came to conclusion at some point that Woody was the cause of all the Hawks' problems. I agree that is a risky mindset to take. I also agree that if the Hawks backtrack this year (or even fail to improve in the playoffs), there will be a lot of anger directed at ASG. And frankly, I can't blame them. Standing still is something people are more used to seeing from teams that have made the Finals already, not from teams that have hit a brick wall in the first couple rounds of the playoffs. The last team to win it's first title after a year in which no major personnel changes were made was the '99 Spurs, but they had 2 Hall of Famers on their roster. On paper, certainly, the Hawks don't have that level of talent.
I guess my thing is that I think the Hawks are far better than they look on paper and also think that the Hawks' issues last year began and ended with the coaching. Now notice that I didn't say "Woody," but rather "the coaching." I think that, for the reasons I said last night (4 All-Star or near-All-Star level players + 4 on-any-team rotation players puts the Hawks in elite company) the Hawks have the firepower to win.
I keep looking at who we could have gotten with the MLE this summer, and kept finding that I'd put our current front 8 ahead of anyone we could have gotten for the MLE in the depth chart. The only real exception I can think of is that I think Matt Barnes (who we probably could have gotten for the MLE) would have leapfrogged Mo Evans in the rotation – but honestly, I don't think it would be by much if Marvin and Joe stayed healthy. The difference between Barnes and Mo certainly wouldn't be enough to win a title.
And then there are "shake-up" trades. I pitched the idea of trading Josh in a sign-and-trade for one of this year's elite free agent PFs (Bosh, Boozer, Amare, or Nowitzki), because I think that our biggest single shortcoming on the floor has been a lack of a consistent scoring presence in the post (a problem that can't be solved with an MLE signing). People on this blog seemed to scoff at the idea, and it didn't happen anyway. With Josh's trade kicker, it might have been a non-starter anyway. (It was telling that the one player Cleveland reportedly was interested in getting in a Shaq S&T was Marvin, not Josh; a $12M trade kicker can do that, I'd imagine.) Even then, I said I was ok with losing Josh because I thought Horford could step up and fill most of the help defense void that Josh would leave – but that's far from certain, obviously. In any case, any trade of Josh would be a risky move.
By and large, though, I still am of the opinion that we can't know how good this team would be until we have the right coach. The departure of Woody, in my view, opened up such an opportunity. I wanted an assistant from Utah, Portland, or Boston to take the top job here, but Drew sounds like he fits the bill too if he walks his talk and gets buy-in from the team.
But the Hawks' course of conduct this summer – hiring Woody's assistant, giving JJ the NBA's biggest contract, and making only the minor-est of roster tweaks – is essentially betting the farm that the problem was entirely with Woody. That will be a tough sell if the Hawks flame out quickly in the second round (or sooner) again.
July 30th, 2010
1:06 pm
Unless Mr.Woodson could lace them up still and shut down Dwight, he is NOT the reason t
Hawks got pummeled. We were too damned small at the Center position. We h NO answer then
and we have NO answer now!
Nothing has changed! You can't coach Heart and Energy, our team does NOT have those two ingredients on their roster!
Some one asked earlier if Josh had professionalism he would be Bosh?
What was that about? Professionalism is a sign of maturity – and that is where Josh is lacking, besides his jumper and FT's! Hopefully, he is working on "Growing Up" from his Play-Off beat down and Summer to reflect on it. Josh has Upside Potential, whereas Bosh has none!
To compare Josh and Bosh? (Hey that rhymes) I'll take all that Josh does now + what he can do tomorrow … All week long!
Re-fried Beans – Gives me Gas!
Re-Tool this team ASG! Do it Now! No Thanks! I'll keep my $200 – Thank you very much!
Why don't you put $200 down on a Center (Shaq) and see IF, he will take Lay-Away payments!
July 30th, 2010
1:10 pm
There is no such thing as a perfect player at roster slot #13. So it comes down to what skill set you need (or can live without). Diener can shoot and protects the ball. If he were pushed into the 2nd unit, I think that is what you want. I don't see Earl Watson accepting a 3rd PG role. Rafer Alston couldn't earn time on a Miami squad that desperately needed good PG play. I suspect that he is done (even if he doesn't yet accept that).
I called for a good-sized back-up SF during the season, but my guess is that Jamal will play less minutes at PG in Drew's offense and so Joe will likely spend more time at SF. I'd rather have someone like Hassell who will accept a defensive-stopper role than Alexander who will likely foul Granger, peirce, LeBron to death. But overall, I'd use #13 on a 4/5 before any other position.
Is Josh Boone a UFA? I thought he was an RFA? He would have been far better than Powell, I assume we couldn't afford him as he is so much better than Powell that it isn't even worth debating.
Virtually any deal that returns Hinrich will appeal to me. Same with Jarrett Jack. But those trades kind of "change the subject" as I was addressing spot #13. Hinrich falls into what I was hooing all summer would be "an improvement of our top 8 players", pardon me if I've lost all faith that we are still looking to make that happen.
July 30th, 2010
1:15 pm
northcyde You make a very good point about the ASG and Woody. Everything clearly wasn't Woody's fault and they shouldn't expect a dramatic change, just because he's gone. I also think that they're statements early on (including Sund's) about needing change were some what of an exaggeration on their parts. Whether any of us believe significant change needed to happen or not, they didn't believe it. Significant change requires moving a core player, and the ASG/Sund never really wanted to do that. I think they could have stated up front that a culture change more than a personnel change needed to happen. I never saw any rumors about good trades for our core guys, so I can only assume that either Sund said he never would trade those guys or other teams didn't want to play the game. nire had some good trade suggestions in June, but guys like Amare, Bosh, Lebron, Wade, etc never seemed realistic. The media seemed completely shocked that the ASG offered the max to JJ, so I would have to assume again that most outside sources see the ASG as small spenders. Which effects how FAs view the HAWKS.
Overall, what I'm saying is that we might have expected to much this summer from the ASG, in terms of reshaping this team. Clearly this is a good team, but we all want a great team. Unless the ASG somehow convinced another Star to S&T to come here, we weren't going to get significantly better by acquisition this summer. Our only real option is to improve from within, which is what should have been stated early on by Sund and the ASG. Something like, "We like our core, but we feel that a culture change is needed to take the next step. We plan to make changes accordingly."
July 30th, 2010
1:27 pm
Heaven knows I wasn't in the interview, but if Drew said to the ASG something like "I can make it easy on you guys, We don't need major changes or to exceed the luxury threshold, the personnel is here. We just need a change in leadership and culture. The right offense and the right amount of accountability. And I can deliver that at a bargain if you hire me", then that may have been the sales pitch that closed the deal. I hope Drew is right. The ceiling appears to be the same to me (2nd round playoff exit) and now we may have to get there as the 3rd team in our division. That's a much tougher road to travel.
If nothing else, I hope that Drew's offense excites the city so that the ASG sees an improvement in revenue. If they can sell tickets at a higher price (without having to use so many promo offers to entice folk to show up), then he would have done a big portion of his job. While I understand the challenges of improving a 53-win team, I am utterly shocked that nothing has been done to improve a bottom third ranked home attendance franchise. Unless, again, that business plan is warapped up in the pentangle offense.
July 30th, 2010
1:27 pm
Actually, I think Josh Boone is absolutely godawful and worthy of zero consideration. You are playing 4-on-5 whenever Boone is on the floor offensively. He's also one of the few players in the NBA who has, in my view at least, gotten worse instead of better each and every year in the league, on both ends of the floor. I would have rather had us dig up Priest Lauderdale than sign him. No, not exaggerating.
Johan Petro, Robert Swift, the ghost of Mark West…anyone but Boone…
July 30th, 2010
1:30 pm
While I understand the challenges of improving a 53-win team, I am utterly shocked that nothing has been done to improve a bottom third ranked home attendance franchise.
Of course, being bottom third ranked in home attendance makes it pretty tough to have the money to improve the team more than marginally. Again, if you look at NBA in past years, the cause and effect has always run from "deep playoff run breakthrough" to "spending more money," not vice versa (unless you're LAL/NYK/BOS).
July 30th, 2010
1:41 pm
Now that Collins has been signed and there is one more roster spot to fill, I would like to know how money do the Hawks have to spend before they reach the luxury tax (not including the 3 million for the sold draft pick). Can anybody help me out?
July 30th, 2010
1:54 pm
It seems like the bigger question is how much NOT to spend versus how much available to spend!
At this point, to get Shaq, we would need to:
Dump Salary
We are beyond spending money at this point – if that makes any since?
July 30th, 2010
2:20 pm
The same squad that got blown out in every game in the second round last year is coming back for another season.
July 30th, 2010
2:31 pm
I've read a lot of complaints about who the Hawks signed and/or didn't sign, and how much they spent on a 4 time All Star and/or how much they won't spend on an egotistical, over the hill Shaq. I even read complaints about new HC LDrew from Clyde, after campaigning for yrs to FIRE WOODSON. We also have those who insist on calling Sund and the ASG stupid and incompetent because they won't waste money signing certain players certain fans want.
Well, I happen to think Sund and the ASG are playing it smart. It's always easy for fans and bystanders to spend someone else's money, or demand they spend money they don't have. The luxury tax limit at $70.307M, and the Hawks are $2,751,188M under the luxury tax limit after signing JCollins and JPowell. The Hawks are only obligated to pay $854,389 total for both players.
If we reach the trade deadline and see we need only one key player to win our division and become title contenders, we could easily afford to add a player. At the trade deadline, the salaries of players acquired in trade are pro rated. Therefore, the Hawks might be able to acquire an affordable center like JPrzybilla or NMohammed for half the money it would cost now.
1-NMohammed–SALARY $6.88M, PRORATED SALARY-$$3.44M.
2-JPrzybilla-SALARY $7.40M, PRORATED SALARY-$$3.70M.
If we sign NMohammed at the trade deadline, it would put us approximately $1M and $1.26M over the luxury tax limit respectively. That $1M could come out of the $3+M we got during the draft.
I certainly prefer this situation to foolishly committing our MLE to Shaq, which would put us over the luxury tax limit for the next 2yrs. In fact, signing Shaq to the MLE($5.8M)would put us $3.04M over the luxury tax limit. Hell, the luxury tax cost for taking on Mohammed and Przybilla's pro rated salaries combined($1M+$1.26M=$2.26M) would be $.78M less than signing Shaq now. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT!
July 30th, 2010
2:38 pm
* IF that makes any sense
July 30th, 2010
2:39 pm
Rev in Tampa – we are about 2.8 mill under the luxury tax threshold currently
Niremetal – I think you just committed the logical fallacy of of leaving out part of a statement to make your point:
"Gearon said that he thought Joe Smith and Jason Collins were mis-/under-utilized by Woody" This is what you said.
"… veterans Joe Smith and Jason Collins should have played bigger roles IN THE ORLANDO SERIES." This is what Gearon said – not under-utilized by Woody period, but only in the Orlando series, unless you can find another quote you haven't yet used in this discussion.
BTW – really appreciate your knowledge of the game, personnel, coaches etc. – Even if we sometimes disagree.
Not sure I would have wanted Barnes for the MLE – Jermaine O'Neil maybe? But he's gone now. I don't rule out Shaq yet – or Kwame, Boone, Tolliver or a trade for that matter…Sund may shock us.
July 30th, 2010
2:42 pm
Don't know where we'll shake out – I know we were the only team in the playoffs last year that weren't in luxury tax territory, but last I checked, we were pretty high up there in salaries for 2010-11 – Of Course the Magic, Lakers, Celts etc real big spenders, as well as the Mavs.
July 30th, 2010
2:44 pm
Ken Strickland – good post! Way to do homework – Nazr may be a good fit for this team with toughness down low.
July 30th, 2010
2:51 pm
CLYDE-suppose you had a vehicle with an engine that skipped and underperformed, but it never failed to get you where you wanted to go, except it couldn't handle the freeway. Instead of getting rid of the vehicle, you decide to have the engine totally rebuilt.
It's certainly the same car and engine, but certain adjustments and upgrades have eliminated the problems that caused it to UNDER PERFORM, and now the car performs flawlessly. Since it's been made to perform much better, and even though it's the same car, wouldn't you say it's a much better car?
July 30th, 2010
2:55 pm
nire, but weren't you the one saying that they have increased their payroll ranking this summer? I'm trying to understand a business plan that increases the payroll ranking without a clear path to increase the revenue. Generally speaking, teams spend more when there is a reason to expect additional revenue, right? Rather that be in additional home playoff games, more regular season sellouts or more corporate sponsors. Will the summer transactions of the Hawks likely lead to any of those things? Heck, if we don't secure at least a 4th seed, there could conceivably be a decrease in home playoff games in the coming season. 3 (max) in the first round and 3 max in the 2nd round. The ASG have had 6 home playoff games in the past 2 years. Maybe that is why Sund was quoted as being hopeful that the Hawks maintain a top 4 seeding, which again, I think is quite improbable as the likely 3rd team in their division.
Regarding Boone, yes he's an awful offensive player but relative to Powell, I'd take Boone.
July 30th, 2010
2:58 pm
about this Al Horford quote:
"We'll see," he said. "If the time is right. It is something that I will have to talk to my agent about. I know that the priority for the team was to re-sign Joe. We will see what happens the rest of the summer as far as the free agents if they are trying to get anybody else."
To which you said:
"- Al only wants to come back if we get good FA's – he was not talking about vet minimum guys – you have to have 13 players per league rules – can anybody say "Uh-oh"?"
Steve, are you taking a leap of faith here? The way that I read that quote was….
"I'm not about to put myself in front of what we need to do as a team therefore I'll wait until they have done their off season business before I worry about my re-signing".
Can you see that as another way of interpreting his comment?
In my mind there was NO implied threat in what Al said. NONE.
We can disagree, but I believe you are reading more into that quote then Al EVER intended.
Just my 2 cents.
July 30th, 2010
3:07 pm
"The same squad that got blown out in every game in the second round last year" is also the same team that:
defeated Boston 4 X, the same Boston that was 12 mins give or take from
being the World Champeens. Granted we did not beat Boston in a play-off setting, however, it proves the Hawks possess the raw material.
Do they need to add more talent? Yes. [constantly] That's what good teams do, they don't idle.
My point:
Too much is made of the Orlando series.
Countering by argueing 4 wins v Boston is likewise counterproductive.
The answer lies somewhere in the midst.
My belief is Sund has never had an original thought.
GS most likely aapproached him about the Jamal trade.
[they GS wanted to rid themselves of Jamal so badly.......]
The roster can still be improved if another team accidently
wants [Marvin] for exp they are gives us something we need [Melo, ha].
Two thoughts: [been on my mind]
*Josh Powell = addition by intagibles.(don't just look @ his #'s)
*Jamal = He wants to be here. That means -ALOT- We need to keep him around. Wanting to be here means he wants to be a "Hawk" + Teammate!
July 30th, 2010
3:11 pm
Sautee, you could very well be right and hope that you are. In the flow of the interview, coupled with what he said about needing an impact Center to be any type of a contender in the East – and knowing he just switched agents to JJ's agent of Arn Tellum – it just looked like a veiled kinda threat to me – but maybe I'm just misreading it.
I hope we offer him the max of 5 years – 83m, and then hope he stays healthy. 23 year old All-Star Center – except for Dwight, not too many guys Horford can't compete with. Bynum/Gasol/Odom? Ming when healthy? A healthy motivated Shaq?I'm sure there's probably more, but it's a short list. He hung with Duncan pretty tough this year – probably better than Bogut – more upside.
July 30th, 2010
3:14 pm
One thing I liked about Boone is whenever we played the Nets, he seemed very active on the glass. And unlike Powell, Boone can actually play spot minutes at PF and Center.
Ken S,
One good thing about the Hawks going into the trading deadline this season is the TPE, because that would allow them to get a player without giving up a player, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
The problem for the Hawks (imo), is we are stacked in the backcourt (JJ, Jamal, Mo, Jordan, Teague and Bibby), but thin in the front court. We need to even things out somehow if we want to take the next step.
July 30th, 2010
3:18 pm
Lord have mercy:
*[[they are gives us]]something we need*
*[[they give us]] something we need*
July 30th, 2010
3:19 pm
About that 3m – don't think I have a beef with Sund personally – I think he's done phenomenal since he's been here – he may have missed on Childress but,
1) He stole Jamal Crawford from GS – and anybody that says that trade just fell in his lap, well it could have fallen into a couple dozen other laps, but didn't. Best move since the Phils stole Roy Oswalt from Houston – what were the Astros thinking?
2) He signed 3 quality vets for the minimum in Joe Smith, Jason Collins, and a gamble on a young big in RandMo (ok, maybe not so quality there). Best you could get for vet min. bigs with playoff/finals exp. probably.
3) Appears to have drafted fairly well
4) Resigned all our FA's we had to have last year – and I think Woody kind of made him in a sense sign Bibby
5) Marvin had a bad back in '09 – I think he is being wise in not factoring in last year too harshly.
6) Made a good call on Woody in all aspects
7) Somehow made selling a 1st pick money and still got us a 1st pick – that's a tremendous business mind right there
He may bomb later – but he's been good in my book – only MC and he it appears knows for sure, but if he said he was gonna spend the 3m from draft day on a vet big – I just wanna hold his feet to the fire – but no personal beef.
July 30th, 2010
3:21 pm
On 2) above should add in ref. to RandMo "and tried to develop a young big"
July 30th, 2010
3:24 pm
O'Brien – good observation on Boone – 5rpg in only 16mpg – that's 10 boards per 32 min. – better than Horford. Horrid free throw shooter however. And he is only 26 or so – so maybe Gattison could help him.
July 30th, 2010
3:26 pm
I think the owners slightly increased payroll slightly because they expect slightly increased revenue. I think that ASG seems to have always taken the view of "if we win more, they will come." In their view, the best way to increase the number of Ws and therefore the number of $s was to replace Woody. If the Hawks win the same or more games in the regular season and make a deeper playoff run, it'll be worth it. If not, it won't be.
The payroll increase was slight, which makes sense because the team's attendance went down but overall ticket revenues probably went slightly up because of the increased ticket prices. The main mode of improvement the Hawks seem to be banking on is a coaching change.
July 30th, 2010
3:30 pm
Steve W,
Maybe its hindsight, but I don't think Sund should have given Woody the 2 year extension when he did (right after the last GM tried to fire him, and the ASG offered said GM a 1 year extension).
I think he should have brought in his guy, and then he would have time to evaluate the players (especially JJ, Bibby and Marvin who were going to be free agents soon) under a different coach.
Also, I see no reason for giving Bibby a 3rd year guaranteed. He was old and getting slower, and the market would not have given him 3 years (even Andre Miller had to settle for a 3rd year team option).
I give Sund credit for the Flip/Mo signing too.
July 30th, 2010
3:52 pm
nire, it seems strange to place your revenue growth plan (assuming that more wins translates into more revenue) into the hands of someone whom you value at the low end of his peers. That continues to be my disconnect with this whole thing. Putting all of your eggs in one basket is always a bad idea, but to give the basket to someone who gets paid less than all of his peers? Well, I'm not sure that in today's financial markets, that plan would result in a loan approval from the average bank.
July 30th, 2010
3:54 pm
OB, I don't think Sund has the power to hire/fire the coach. Maybe he will in the future, but IMO, he hasn't had it during his brief tenure with the team.
July 30th, 2010
3:59 pm
Not for nothing, O'B, but:
1) Andre Miller is 2 years older than Bibby
2) It really does amount to a 2-year guaranteed contract in some respects, since Bibby now provides us with a significant expiring contract that comes off our books next summer. This year, Bibby needs to have value as a player. Next year, he will have value even if he goes out injured for the year because he's an expiring contract.
3) Even if you don't buy into that, Bibby will only be making $6.2M next year, which is just above the current MLE, which is based on the average NBA salary. Even his harshest haters would have a tough time saying that Bibby is not at least "slightly above average" for an NBA player given his outside shooting ability and continued aptitude at running screen rolls and (no matter how many times people selectively forget the number of times he does this) his ability to initiate the fast break. Hell, his outside shooting alone makes his contract less than horrific looking, even if we don't use it as a trade chip next year.
4) Even if you disagree with all that…maybe hindsight is 20/20 for some, but I know that I didn't expect Bibby to drop off as much as he seemed to this past year even in terms of production. I got the impression that he got bored in Woody's "offense" (ie giving the ball to Joe or Jamal then getting out of the way), but maybe that's just me.
July 30th, 2010
4:06 pm
I have no idea what you're talking about with "someone whom you value at the low end of his peers." If Sund (or ASG for you conspiracy theorists) thought that Drew was the best man for the job, then what does his salary have to do with it? Would you prefer that ASG needlessly pay Larry Drew more despite the fact that he was willing to work for less? Or does the mere fact that Larry Drew is (reportedly, btw – coaching contract terms are almost never disclosed) making less money than most/all other coaches conclusively prove to you that they do not "value him?" If so, that's absurd. Basic supply and demand, Astro. You pay someone as much as you need to pay them in order for them to come work for you, and no more.
Also, like most coaching contracts, I assume that there are substantial bonuses built into Drew's contract based on different performance benchmarks (eg team wins 50 games; gets top 4/2/1 seed; wins round 1, round 2, ECF, Finals; named COY; etc). At the end of the day, Drew might end up getting paid quite well if the Hawks do well. Certainly, that's the way I would have structured the contract.
July 30th, 2010
4:09 pm
Bibby was forced to the bench in late/close game situations because of Jamal's big play ability and inability to defend. The previous coach couldn't put two non-defenders on the floor so someone had to sit. The previous coach sat Bibby. I'm not certain that will happen with the next coach, as I suspect that he may value a floor general in those late game situations more than the previous coach. That theory, plays into the other reason I felt Jamal would have been traded earlier this summer. A large expiring contract for a SMOY who may not have the same opportunity to utilize his skills? Sounds like trade bait to me.
Seems to me that Bibby performed fairly well the last time he played in a motion offense. Granted, he's maybe 5-6 years older than he was back then. But I wouldn't write him off quite yet.
July 30th, 2010
4:15 pm
I totally agree with you re: Sund should have not re-hired Woody back in 2008. I'm still pissed about that decision.
July 30th, 2010
4:18 pm
nire, I'm not buying it. I'm not buying that Drew was the single best coaching candidate irrespective of expense. Nope. And there is no need to debate the issue. This has been a summer of sameness and judicial spending. That theme, IMO, permeated every decision including the hiring of the head coach. I can't be convinced that Drew was the best head coaching candidate, that Collins was the best center candidate and that Powell was the best 2nd string PF candidate. I think sameness and judicial spending affected all of those decisions. If that makes me a scarecrow, hard-headed, dense, or whatever other derogatory name, so be it.
July 30th, 2010
4:32 pm
Dwight has been everywhere in Atlanta this summer.. i think inside he's itching to return..
July 30th, 2010
4:33 pm
Woe Nellie!
Nire ……. Calm down man!
Where are you getting all the incentive laden garble from in Drew's contract? Unless, you actually negotiated all that stuff – Where does all those escalators come from?
You just described a player's not even a coach's, un-guaranteed NFL type contract! Which, the only
real guarantee is the SIGNING bonus dispersed over the front end or life-time of it's deal.
Typically the NFL base salaries are counted against a hard-cap each year. But, those contracts are even
further stipulated with a CONDUCT clause and SUBSTANCE ABUSE dingers!
Drew is NOT a player, just a Coach. However, his contract is guaranteed whether he wins 13 games or 53 games. There may be some players with bonuses for making the play-offs or reaching a minutes played milestone (which, to me really says for NOT being injured or faking injuries to NOT play for some other reasons), I.E. We're NOT making the play-offs so why play? Or what Bosh was accused of in Toronto as packing it in for Free Agency.
But, don't read too much into Drew's simple contract 2years + 1 Team option with an average salary of 1.5Million/Year . That is a 500K annual raise and nothing more than that! A Bounus is NOT a salary and you can't buy a house or car with it! There is NO guarantee you will ever see it!
Drew and Dantley are making basically the exact same salary! Drew, is making a ROOKIE Coach paycheck,
Simply based on the fact, he has no prior head coaching experience.
Drew is a 20 year assistant, who finally got a break! Nothing more than that!
Ps: comment not proof-read for errors.
July 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
You call handing out the largest contract in the NBA judicious (I'm guessing that was the word you were going for) spending?
And you are pretty much every derogatory name in the book.
July 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
he's been more active in the community than Joe.. smh. you talking about putting butts in the seats.. bring Dwight home..
dude was @ white water a couple weeks ago..
July 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
Please show me a trade proposal that would land us Dwight Howard. Pretty please. I'll sign onto it right now.
July 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
Despite being 2 years older, Miller consistently plays all 82 games, and he was coming off a season where he averaged 16 pts and 7 assists, while Bibby averaged 15 points and 5 assists. The biggest advantage Bibby had over Miller was 3 pt shooting.
I didn't expect him to fall off so quickly either, but if it was a 2 year deal, Bibby would have been an expiring contract, so we could have used him in a trade now instead of having to wait until next offseason.
I have been on the trade Jamal bandwagon too, especially after Mo decided to stay, we resigned JJ, and drafted Jordan. How mnay SG do we need?
July 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
Great link as always! Thanks baby-boy! Hey, how is your schooling coming along?
Any Summer classes?
Josh getting married? Sounds awesome! Congratulations Josh! Don't forget the pre-nuptuals.
Naah … Just kidding, but not really!
BigDave, stole my thoughts on the other Dwight in Town – Blog. I was wondering is Josh recruiting
Dwight to come here, when his gig is up in Orlando?
Looks like collusion amongst players starts, what, three to four years in advance of?
July 30th, 2010
5:23 pm
Hey Nire … I will co-sgn that deal alongside you. Maybe Josh can convince Dwight to schedule an ESPN Special to announce he is coming Home, in a few years.
Hey a gurl can dream.
"Everybody knows there is nothing to do in Orlando." Unless, thats right – You WIN a Championship and are going to Disney! Hehe
July 30th, 2010
6:18 pm
ASTRO JOE-A major advantage Bibby and JaCrawford will have under LDrew and LConnor will be their DEF strategy. Our front line players will now be able to provide backup and challenge players in the lane, since they'll now be in position to do so. No more of that stupid switching DEF, which prevented them from protecting the lane, when teams brought them out on the perimeter and forced them to switch off on their guards.
I guarantee you Bibby has been instructed to get in better condition, improve his lateral movement, his ability to fight over screens and slide his feet. In other words, improve his overall DEF. Same with JaCrawford. I also think Bibby will improve offensively, because in the new OFF, defenders will have to concentrate on fighting over screens and following the ball. That makes it very hard for a defender to lock down on his assigned OFF player, and it takes a lot of individual pressure off of Bibby, which will allow him to be more effective.
I think he'll take fewer 3's, and the majority of the ones he takes will be within the context of the OFF. He won't be clearing out and standing at the 3pt line waiting for a pass, like in the past. When athletic players with hops, like MWilliams, JaCrawford, JoCrawford, AHorford, JSmith, JPowell, JTeague and MEvans, cut hard to the basket, DEF's have to drop back to protect the lane. That allows players with excellent shooting ability to have open 12-20ft shots.
July 30th, 2010
6:22 pm
Not sure who Sund would have brought in instead of Woody (I guess anybody, but he had an abysmal track record of hiring HC's in Seattle) – and a 1 yr. ext. would have given you a 47-35 record – an injury riddled 2nd round playoff loss – and possibly a 3yr. contract for Woody! Glad he did the 2yr. deal – had forgot about Mo/Flip – good moves also.
Also, could you imagine letting Childress go and firing Woody in your 1st summer here? Not good from a stability standpoint.
Nire – agree with your Andre/Bibby analysis to a large degree.
July 30th, 2010
6:31 pm
"Please show me a trade proposal that would land us Dwight Howard. "
They could just clear cap space for two years from now to offer Dwight a max deal when his contract expires…
July 30th, 2010
6:46 pm
Here's why I believe we'll be a much better team this yr.
1-With a motion OFF, our players and the ball will be going towards the basket, rather than the 3pt line.
2-The OFF will definitely be initiated below the 3pt line.
3-We'll get more scoring opportunities closer to the basket, which should increase our scoring efficiency and FT opportunities.
4-Our front line players won't be required to clear out or defend on the perimeter, like in the past. This will allow them to remain closer to the lane and use their quickness and athleticism to increase our OFF and DEF rebounding.
5-If LDrew follows up on his promise to increase MWilliams and MBibby's the OFF production, along with getting consistent production from MEvans, JPowell, ZPachulia and JCollins, how can we not improve offensively and defensively? We already know what we can expect from JJ, Horford, Josh and JaCrawford. The increased scoring opportunities for the aforementioned players will come from JJ, Horford, Josh and JaCrawford, who should be able to score much more efficiently in LDrew's OFF system. AS YOU CAN TELL, I'M AS EXCITED AS HELL,, ABOUT THIS OFF AND THIS TEAM!
July 30th, 2010
6:54 pm
On an unrelated note, the Philips Arena Store is having a 50% off all jerseys sale right now. They've got a cool new Horford one with "BOSS" emblazoned on the back:
July 30th, 2010
6:54 pm
Or maybe it's not new but it's new to me…
July 30th, 2010
6:58 pm
I'm pumped too, Ken. Like you, I think that the elimination of the ISO offense and the always-switch-and-stay defense will make the team harder for opposing teams to clamp down on in close games and in the playoffs. Hopefully we'll see better situational use of the bench too. If those things happen, I seriously think we can play with any team in the league.
July 30th, 2010
7:10 pm
Nire is on Fire!
July 30th, 2010
7:35 pm
a trade..? pppffffffffffff, in our dreams.. yeah, you sign off and i move him myself! im thinking more summer 2012..
yea.. looks as if he's tying the knot.. wonder where found her? @ least someone's finding some quality in the A.. or maybe with a check like his the quality finds you..
no summer classes, things are about to crank up in a couple weeks though.. fall is in the air.. well, with these triple digit heat indexes im not so sure..
July 30th, 2010
7:36 pm
* "where he found.. "
July 30th, 2010
7:44 pm
The Hawks need to have Cleveland sign Shaq, trade him to Atlanta for ZAZA as this trade works because Cleveland needs a good young center badly and the Hawks need Shaq for the attendance attraction. Salary would be enough to sign Shaq for 2 years which maybe all the time the Hawks can keep ZAZA as he is going to grow with proper training into a fine center. Maybe the Hawks should keep ZAZA and hire a good big man triner to work with him, I notice he was boxing this summer to improve footwork and stamina as well as quickness timing. So forget the trade, develop ZAZA.
July 30th, 2010
10:39 pm
Mr. Strickland, I do need to remind you that there is another way to bring Shaq here.
Sign & Trade
You trade Marvin Williams for Shaq, and sign Shaq to a 3 yr – 21 mill deal. That's how you acquire Shaq, and stay under the Luxury Tax at the same time. If that rumor was true a couple of weeks ago, the Cavs would do it.
And before anybody goes off the deep end, ALL sign and trades must be for at least 3 yrs . . . but only 1 year must be guaranteed. So a Shaq sign and trade may look like this:
Year 1: $7 million
Year 2: $7 million ( player option )
Year 3: $7 million ( team option )
So unless Shaq found the Fountain of Youth . . or we won an NBA Title with Shaq being a key reason why . . you're basically looking at a 2 yr – 14 million dollar deal for Shaq . . if he doesn't retire after Year 1.
That deal keeps the Hawks 2+ million under the Tax, with plenty of room to spare to sign another minimum or slightly above minimum player.
Even in the 2011 – 12 season, we have the option to not re-sign Evans and Crawford, representing 12 to 13 million instantly off the books.
If the ASG made a deal like that, Atlanta is buzzing just like Cincinnati is now about Terrell Owens and the Bengals. And Rod would instantly renew his season tickets, with Marvin finally out of town.
Marvin Williams is NOT a vital piece of "the core". He just isn't. His production proved to be easily replaceable last year. A player like him CANNOT be the reason Shaq doesn't come to ATL. If there's anybody in our "core" that we can afford to lose, it's him.
If Cleveland would take Marvin, you make that deal TONIGHT.
There's no way you can convince me that if we subtracted Marvin, but added Shaq, that we'd be a worse team. Marvin is a solid player. But he's not untouchable.
July 30th, 2010
10:39 pm
Boxing is GREAT training for Zsa Zsa … He is a natural fighter. I love Zsa's TUDE!
That Green Monster stare down was about as Kewl as the front page picture in the AJC of
Billy Knight refusing the shake The Evil Hand of Belkin at the court house, when Belkin
Filed that injunction to block Joe Johnson's trade!
Classic DRAMA from the Hawks! We could use some of that same DRAMA right now!
We ain't got Nothing to talk about! You feel me?
We like a hungry pack of wolves looking to be fed! We need some meat on these blogs!
Whazzzuupp? Not a damn thang!
July 30th, 2010
10:41 pm
Boxing is GREAT training for Zsa Zsa … He is a natural fighter. I love Zsa's TUDE!
That Green Monster stare down was about as Kewl as the front page picture in the AJC of
Billy Knight refusing the shake The Evil Hand of Belkin at the court house, when Belkin
Filed that injunction to block Joe Johnson's trade!
Classic DRAMA from the Hawks! We could use some of that same DRAMA right now!
We ain't got Nothing to talk about! You feel me?
We like a hungry pack of wolves looking to be fed! We need some meat on these blogs!
Whazzzuupp? Not a damn thang!
Speaking of Zsa Zsa boxing – what in the heck is Jason Collins doing? He need to be boxing, jumping rope and doing the Hooters Hula-Hoops all day – every day!
July 30th, 2010
11:01 pm
northcyde, I really like Marvin. I think he has more to offer than we have seen. But against my wishes, I must agree with you. Marvin does not have that FIRE inside that makes him excell regardless of the offensive/defensive scheme. I believe he will improve significantly this year and that he is a solid piece of this team, but he will never be an elite basketball player. In other words, it would hurt to get rid of him, but he is expendable.
July 30th, 2010
11:02 pm
As far as I know, my boy Trenton Hassell needs a new contract. So if you're looking for a 6-5 defensive SG/SF on the cheap, he may be your guy ASG.
Not that he's as good as he used to be, but hey, you're givng all of the other scrubs a chance.
July 30th, 2010
11:03 pm
July 30th, 2010
11:05 pm
I wish YOU were the Hawks GM – tonite!
What in the World is the ASG love affair with Marvin all about?
Does he have some serious dirt on these guys?
He must have some hidden, secret, "Keep it in the Closet" moves he's performing over there that we just don't know about? Is he Gay? IDK?
I must be missing Something – because I don't see untouchable talent in his game either!
I'm just sayin'
July 30th, 2010
11:13 pm
If Boston signs Shaq? Its a wrap! But, they just don't have the money to do it without a major trade.
Unless, Shaq agrees to play for the Vet minimum. But, I just don't see that!
Did they re-sign Ray Allen?
I we don't sign Shaq? We just don't want Shaq! & that my friend, I just don't get.
The basketball gods are dropping him in our laps, but we are not biting.
Go Figure!
July 30th, 2010
11:27 pm
I would prefer to sign shaq for the MLE and not worry about the luxury tax. that way, we keep Marvin.
But I think the reason why the ASG has not offered shaq a contract might not be about the money. They are worried about chemistry.
Because I Think anybody in marketing would say that signing shaq will increase revenue tremendously.
July 30th, 2010
11:52 pm
The Hawks were swept, demolished, embarrassed, pummeled, destroyed, annihilated, torpedoed,
beat-down and whupped by the Orlando Magic and set the NBA record for the greatest margin of a play-off series loss this past season!
How did that CHEMISTRY work for them?
July 31st, 2010
12:07 am
The extra ticket and merchandising sales Shaq would generate would way, way exceed the additional amount in salary and luxury tax that it would take to get him. Every team he's gone to has seen attendance increase, even if the team's record didn't improve (or, in the Suns' case, got worse). He's the Big Drawing Card. But he's also the Big Pain in the Ass, and the Big Sitting Duck on the pick and roll. Frankly, the latter is my main concern – the Celtics screen rolled the Cavs to death whenever Shaq was in the game last season. I think the chemistry issue is the big deterrent for the Hawks' front office.
July 31st, 2010
12:14 am
I hope the ASG aren't worried about Chemistry? They need to be worried about losing.
We'll see – we shall see! IF they don't get Shaq (a glaring need), I'm done with the ASG!
I will always support the team, but NOT the owners though.
July 31st, 2010
12:30 am
How much CHEMISTRY does it take to lose a series by an aggregate score of 101 points?
When, the Bulls brought Dennis Rodman in there – were they worried about CHEMISTRY?
When, the Lakers brought Ron Artest in there – were they worried about CHEMISTRY?
When, the Bengals brought TO in there today – were they worried about CHEMISTRY?
Where does the ASG have the basketball arrogance to worry about CHEMISTRY?
Last time I was at Phillips Arena, I counted the number of World Championship Banners hanging in the rafters that they have WON based on all their great teams that was laden with all that – CHEMISTRY!
Fast-Forward to:
And it just don't stop!
Aye … ASG, How's all that CHEMISTRY working for you?
July 31st, 2010
12:41 am
Tough to have chemistry when you have a coach without a clue or a system who is fond of playing favorites.
July 31st, 2010
12:47 am
I could care less – IF the Hawks like each other or NOT.
I could care less – IF they get along like Shaq & Kobe, (when they WON 3 Rings).
I could care less – IF they go out to dinner after games.
I could care less – IF Mario West bangs Joe's Mamma.
I could care less – IF they speak to each other the cellie.
I could care less – IF. …………….
These guys are PAID to PLAY professional basketball and WIN!
I could give a rat's tail about CHEMISTRY?
Sounds like a bunch of silly girl stuff to me.
IF I'm paying 70 Million Dollars to put 13 guys on a team plane for 41 games?
They better put that ISH to the side and play some really good basketball – damnit!
And WIN!
July 31st, 2010
7:44 am
If Boston is willing to give up a pick with it, they'll trade Sheed (right before he retires) to Cleveland for Shaq…Unless they can get Kwame Brown to sign for the vet minimum.
July 31st, 2010
10:13 am
I think the ASG believe our chemistry issues last year were because of woody (and I agree). So with him gone, they feel like Larry drew can handle the players we have now.
But they don't know if drew can handle shaq. And that's what they are afraid of. It is a legit concern. But its a risk I am willing to take.
He does have liabilities on the court. But we still have Zaza to mix and match.
July 31st, 2010
10:18 am
To resolve my syntactic ambiguity:
Tough to have chemistry when you have a coach who:
1) Has no clue
2) Has no system
3) Is fond of playing favorites.
July 31st, 2010
10:18 am
Why didn't we trade Chills and a pick to Cleveland for Shaq then – If that's all itakes?
I don't get this front office and their reluctance to improve or alter this TEAM.
Even the Champion makes a roster move after each Ring.
Be it, Football, Baseball or Basketball.
July 31st, 2010
10:30 am
I don't understand that logic, if that's why the ASG is reluctant.
Josh and Al said they need some muscle down low, unless Shaq doesn't want to back up Al?
I say sign him.
If they don't feel Drew can handle strong personalities – then why hire him?
Besides, how do they know he can't handle a Shaq-Attack if they don't try?
Is Drew soft? Then, we're doomed already.
I'm wondering how will Spolestra handle all that Ego in Miami?
Why don't Sund do like Popavich and come Coach his own Picks then, Pop had no HC experience either.
Look at how great he is. Drew was in the League before Shaq was born and he is a Father himself.
He has two sons and I'm sure he has had to discipline them as well.
I don't follow that logic, at all. I hope that isn't the case. If so, the whole ORG is Soft and inept to WIN.
July 31st, 2010
11:10 am
Chills' status as a BYC player made it impossible to S&T him to a team for someone who would be getting paid more than $4.5M per year.
I don't think there are any coaches in the NBA besides Phil, Pop, and maybe Doc that Shaq will respect enough to shut up and listen to. His ego far outstrips his talent at this point, which is what lies at the root of the things that keep teams from signing him (demanding too much salary, wants a big-minutes role, would be a locker room wrecking ball, etc).
July 31st, 2010
11:31 am
I also think the ASG is worried about shaq calling them out.
I can see shaq making fun of a 8 member ownership team who takes a long time to make a decision (especially if he became unhappy).
July 31st, 2010
12:13 pm
I didn't realize Shaq was such a ham.
July 31st, 2010
12:47 pm
Where is MC or whoever is filling in for him. No blog update since July 16th…..
July 31st, 2010
12:55 pm
This bolg is much better … No Truth-Serum + 35 user I'd's to inflate the numbers!
What we have here is, good, healthy and decent conversation.
July 31st, 2010
1:13 pm
Here is a different spin of the Hawks outlook so we can at least keep it real. Our 2009-2010 82-game stats reveal some interesting clues regarding our current acquisitions, re-staffing and new strategies. Relative to the world champion Lakers, our offense, we were ranked 13th while the Lakers were ranked 12th (just in front). This would suggest that even in Woody's ISO offense, our scoring was comparable to the Lakers. If offense was the only criteria, we should have gone much deeper in the playoff to possibly compete for the title once you filter out the lotto teams in basketball fantasyland under this condition. However, we all know that while a better offense will sell some tickets and expand the fan-base, it alone cannot win a title.
Our defense relative to the Lakers was a different story. We were ranked 17th compared to the Lakers 2nd ranking. The gap on defense reveals our problem area. Also, from the stats, it shows on defense that the injury-prone Celtics were ranked near dead last at ranking 29th. Perhaps the absence of KG and their other key-players mostly during the regular season had much to do with that number while the Lakers 2nd ranking may have improved even better had Bynum been healthy. Our 29th ranking is about right since we had no major injury to key-players for any significant length of time. If you filter out the lotto teams on defense, we would be in the company of the bottom-tier playoff teams. All things considered, this bottom-tier group made brief playoff appearances then exit. That sounds about right for us as well based on what actually happened in the playoff. It is clear that the stronger playoff finishers (with the exception of Boston injury problems) had a much higher defense ranking (compared to us) consistent with the theme that defense wins titles. This begs the question; did the Hawks address this problem during this off-season? You be the judge.
We hired an offense-minded rookie head coach to replace Woody's switching defense for a more traditional one-on-one man defense. We drafted a perimeter SG with an already stacked backcourt (salary-wise as well) that isn't noted for his defense. Currently we have constructed the same team with only Josh Powell as the exception. So really we are betting that a new defense scheme along will fix own defense problem. But the new defense scheme is not really new it just different for the Hawks. Around the league, this scheme is really the defense of choose (with the occasional man double-team). The difference with this defense between Team A vs. Team B is execution. So for maximum results, this defense needs to be deployed with the right set of players if the overall goal is to improve from last season. Since we are deploying the same team with this defense, high expectation to instantly improve may be unfair. Perhaps that is why the outcry for Shaq has been so loud. He is the one player that can improve our defense in areas where we need help the most. If not Shaq then we need a similar prototype. If Sund is not making this case to the ASG, then he is not doing his job. Publicly he seems to suggest that everything is just fine in Hawksville by only making a few minor tweaks like replacing Josh Powell for Joe Smith who saw very little playoff action. He may even hype Jordan Crawford who may not see much action given our loaded backcourt. I think what anger fans the most is that we are so close to that next and final level yet they (Sund and/or the ASG) are fumbling the ball.
July 31st, 2010
1:22 pm
Correction: "Our 17th ranking is about right since we had no major injury to key-players for any significant length of time."
July 31st, 2010
2:36 pm
The problem with our ISO offense was too many fourth quarter scoring droughts. If I'm not mistaken, we had at least 16 games where we scored 19 points or less in the fourth.
And sometimes, woody did ask for more ball movement. But when the going got tough, we went ISOs. That works against average teams. But not against good defensive teams.
July 31st, 2010
2:42 pm
The Truth,
By replacing Woody you immediately buy yourself a ticket to improve our D.
We don't know if the ticket will take us to the destination, but we have now a chance to improve in that area and we have to wait what Conner brings to the table.
Last year the defensive strategy was Woody's thing, now it is Conner's so it is not fair to judge where we are headed on that front when you say that Drew is an offensive coach. Yes, he is, but he also brought in someone with a fresh strategy for the defense.
Our D last year sucked for a series of reasons:
0. The system itself, based 99% on the switching D.
1. Jamal Crawford.
2. Bibby's aging.
3. Chemistry.
0. All that had to be said about the switching D has been said. My only grain of salt is that we should still use it against sub-par teams who have great difficult adjusting to it.
1. Jamal Crawford is an extremely poor defensive player. Nothing character wise. He simply does not have a clue.
His playing time filled Flip's slot (who was not a defensive ace but was not terrible) and diminished Marvin and Bibby's playing time.
Marvin is a good defensive player, which means with his absence, our defense got worse.
Bibby is a defensive liability but is a lot smarter than Jamal and is (was prior to 2009-10) not – overall – such a bad defensive player as Jamal.
2. Bibby's aging made his defensive deficiencies more glaring and more evident. That did not help at all.
3. The switching D allied with the playing time given to Bibby and Jamal – who were defensive liabilities generated a huge D effort imbalance: the front court was asked to provide D on the perimeter and in the paint which led to many situations in which the team stopped executing the re-switch and just coasted defensively.
Looking at our current roster we had a pretty solid group of player with above average D capabilities:
Joe Smith
Were all above average defensive players, then we had a second tier with:
Zaza is borderline due to a lack of athleticism
Bibby relied only on savvy
Teague was too green but had the legs to keep up
Collins was overweight but has all the knowledge
Mario had the will and some skills but lacked experience and minutes to be really effective
And then we had two useless defensive players:
Jamal, too distracted and too clueless
RandMo, a foul machine
Looking at this group, it is perfectly acceptable to think that we had the personnel to be well above average since Teague's legs (or even Mario) could have been used more in situations where Bibby was clearly outplayed.
Mo could have been used more in situations where Jamal was clearly a liability on the SG slot.
Collins could have been used more often and got into shape.
Joe Smith should have played a lot more allowing Josh to have more rest, in particular to be fresh at the end games.
July 31st, 2010
2:57 pm
Our fourth quarter scoring droughts could have also been the results of just good defense by our opponents. On other occasions like in the Bucks series (for example) as good as we were on offense they just offensively paced us and stole some games in the end. This fixation on just the Hawks offense is really my point. We aren't going very far in just having an offensive mindset alone.
July 31st, 2010
3:09 pm
Yes, effort was an issue – that falls under point 3.
At some point some players were tired of having to provide defense for themselves and for others (mainly Bibby and Jamal).
OB, Ray,
In 99% of the cases our scoring droughts were caused by lack of any offensive variation.
ISO plays can be effective, in particular when executed by guys like JJ or Jamal who are very creative and able to produce points under those circumstances, however, for that to happen you need to keep defenses honest with other possibilities.
It's completely different to defend an ISO play where you know that nothing else will happen beyond dribble dribble bad shot (or under-pressure-late-in-the-clock-pass) with zero personnel movement that an ISO play where you have no idea if it will actually go ISO all the way or if other ORCHESTRATED AND ORGANIZED possibilities will come into action.
July 31st, 2010
3:24 pm
Even though Drew has hired a new assistant, he has publicly given us insight into his new defensive philosophy which is as I described. I have not prematurely judged the future of the Hawks; I've just reviewed the past for insight into the future. While there maybe some excitement about the new coach lets not pretend the media introduction of him was something more then just his offense. It was all about his motion offense. There is nothing wrong with that as he correctly hired some help in the defense area. But I'm thinking the help will not be bringing anything new; just executing the defense within his philosophy.
July 31st, 2010
3:40 pm
NORTHCYDE-6′5″ MEvans is our only backup SF, and you're suggesting we trade our STARTING SF to acquire an egotistical over the hill backup center who's made it perfectly clear he doesn't want to be a backup. I DON'T THINK SO. Marvin definitely has the ability to get better in several areas, but not Shaq. With him, we could end up with a bigger, taller version of MBibby.
Tell me, how many teams can you name with one player that's capable of consistently stopping or containing DHoward? If Woodson was still our HC, I'd say sign Shaq as quickly as possible, because there's no way he'd come up with a team strategy to get it done, or seek help help from someone who could.
Teams with HC's that have above average basketball IQ's recognized DHoward was foul prone. They kept kept him moving by keeping the ball moving, which forced him to cover more territory. Then they attacked the lane, which forced him to cover more territory in provide DEF help. Him often being out of position and trying to provide help DEF often caused him to foul.
Woodson's approach was to shoot jump shots and stay out of the lane and away from Howard. JUST BECAUSE WOODSON COULDN'T COME WITH A SINGLE THOUGHT OR IDEA THAT WOULD MAKE US EVEN COMPETITIVE AGAINST THE MAGIC, DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN IT WILL REMAIN THE SAME UNDER LDREW. The Bulls have improve their talent, but it doesn't automatically mean they're a better team. We won 3 of 4 gms against the Bulls, and dominated them in our 3 wins, and 1 OT loss. Their projected improvement might close the gap, but there's no way anyone can realistically say they've automatically become better than us?
We won 6 of 10 against the Bucks and we lost 3 of 4 to the Knicks, a far inferior team. All I'm trying to say is if teams that finished below is improve, and we also improve, albeit in different ways, why automatically assume their improvement is more note worthy than ours?
July 31st, 2010
4:13 pm
THE TRUTH-Yes, we hired an OFF minded HC. And despite us averaging 101.7PPG, which was right with the Lakers as you said, we still had some serious OFF issues with our ISO dependent OFF. These issues were largely masked during the regular season, due to teams having limited preparation time, but that certainly wasn't the case in the playoffs.
You omitted one very important fact. HC LDrew, the OFF minded HC we hired, also hired a DEF(LConnor) minded assistant to handle those DEF issue. Right off the bat, LConnor said he's eliminating the switching DEF, having everyone play man to man, fight over picks, and carry their own weight defensively. Woodson's ego driven approach, where he made every decision and put his footprint on everything, is now a thing of the past.
Why replace MWilliams if we can make him better? If DEF was our major problem under Woodson, especially our perimeter DEF, why insist on starting and giving major mins to one of the NBA's slowest, most limited, least athletic, and worse perimeter defenders? I think consistently giving significant mins to PG JTeague, and using Bibby's experience, savvy and OFF skills to supplement his skills will make an them an excellent duo. All of Bibby's weaknesses are Teague's strengths, and Teague's weaknesses are Bibby's strengths.
July 31st, 2010
4:31 pm
Rasho gone to Greece – he's off the table
2 big centers left – Shaq and Kwame
2 small centers/PF's left of quality – Tolliver and Boone
Watched Kwame – enormously talented athlete – mentally, he's gone right now. When he touches the basketball, he has no idea what to do with it. Looks like he's just trying not to get booed, like he did in LA.
If somebody could work with him – great athlete.
Athlete he most reminds me of when he touches the basketball? Unfortunatly, Marvin Williams. No basketball IQ, great athlete.
Rebounding is another area of concern in our PF/C position.
In the Total Rebounding stats the NBA does (some formula per player/other team while player on court etc., not just how many individual rebounds did someone avg. per game):
Among Centers – Horford 31st
ZaZa 50th
PF's – Joe Smith 17th
Josh Smith 33rd
SF – Marvin 17th
We need help down low.
July 31st, 2010
4:37 pm
Agree with Nire – Shaq a locker room cancer – 1st year HC – young team – he may destroy them. Or he could lead them too a title. Big risk, but basketball people say, he's just what the Hawks need skill set wise.
Tolliver would probably be perfect for our Offense – but not much help versus Dwight.
Also, the Heat have nobody down low – a big body will give them problems. Again, most basketball people give the Lakers the edge against the Heat because of Andrew Bynum.
I also think the Magic are going to give the Heat fits – Jameer will own Chalmers at the point, and the Heat have nobody to stop Howard/Gortat.
July 31st, 2010
4:38 pm
Did you really just say Marvin has no basketball IQ? Marvin's basketball IQ is just about the only thing that people DON'T criticize him for, and for good reason.
July 31st, 2010
4:38 pm
Truth . . what in the world are you looking at?
I see nothing on that link that would indicate that Boston was 29th in the league in defense. Boston was one of the best defensive teams in the league last year. What killed Boston at times, were turnovers on offense and their inability to grab offensive rebounds. Their great ball movement last year saw them shoot a high FG%, but also resulted in a ton of turnovers. But their defense saved them the vast majority of the time.
The following stats come from basketball-reference.com
Offensive rating: 2nd
PPG: 12th
Pace: 27th
eFG%: 16th
Turnover %: 1st
Offensive rebound %: 5th
FT/FGA: 23rd
Offensive rating: 15th
PPG: 19th
Pace: 23rd
eFG%: 5th
Turnover %: 27th
Offensive rebs: 28th
FT/FGA: 6th
Offensive rating: 11th
PPG: 13th
Pace: 14th
eFG%: 17th
Turnover %: 5th
Offensive rebs %: 10th
FT/FGA: 18th
Defensive rating: 13th
Def. PPG: 9th
Def. eFG%: 16th
Opp. turnover %: 19th
Defensive rebs %: 24th
Opp. FT/FGA: 8th
Defensive rating: 5th
Def. PPG: 5th
Opp. eFG%: 9th
Opp. turnover %: 2nd
Defensive rebs %: 14th
FT/FGA: 24th
Defensive rating: 4th
PPG: 10th
Opp. eFG%: 6th
Opp. turnover%: 20th
Defensive rebs %: 9th
Opp. FT/FGA: 2nd
If anything, the slower pace that we played, was one of the determining factors in why our defense wasn't worse than what it was. But the overall point that you were trying to make though Truth, is clear. The Hawks defense is one of the major issues that holds us back, not the offense.
The 4 stats to watch this season, are the eFG% and Turnover % stats on offense, and the eFG% and defensive rebounding % stats on defense.
We were by far the best team in the league on offense in not turning the ball over. If the new offense causes us to turn the ball over more, without seeing an increase in our eFG%, then Drew's offense will actually become a detriment. If the Turnover % is still in the top 5, but our eFG% jumps into the top 10, then Drew's offense is working.
On the defensive side, we also need to see an improvement in the Defensive eFG% that jumps into the top 10, while improving our Defensive rebounding %. Both Boston and LA have Defensive eFG% in the top 10. The top 10 Defensive eFG% teams last year:
1) Orlando
2) Miami
3) Cleveland
4) San Antonio
5) OK City
6) LA Lakers
7) Chicago
9) Boston
10) Indiana ( the only team in this group not to make the playoffs )
The only other playoff team to have a lower Defensive eFG% than the Hawks, was Portland, who ranked 17th.
People villify the switching defense, but it did work at times. But maybe we relied on it a little too much. We'll see this season if these guys are able to play more straight up defense and be better overall . . or worse.
July 31st, 2010
4:39 pm
There's a difference between coordination and basketball IQ. Marvin's long on the latter and short on the former.
July 31st, 2010
4:43 pm
Horford Averaged 8ppg and 7rpg against Dwight – Dwight averaged 21ppg and 16.8rpg against us. It's not just Howard – they have Gortat also. The Magic said there are only 10 legit Centers in the NBA, and they have 2 of them – and drafted Orton at 29 to try and eventually have 3 i guess.
July 31st, 2010
4:44 pm
Chinese Buffet!
This team reminds me of a Chinese Buffet: lots of vegetables and not enough meat.
I hate Chinese Food. A pile of rice and a ton of vegetables, you can count the pieces of chicken on one hand.
Not a good value for the money. It gets worse when you order beef or shrimp.
Really great comments!
Even when you guys disagree – You actually all agree!
After reading 10,000 Blogs, the general consensus is that we need:
Nothing has changed in that regard over the past 6 years – not one thing.
Yawn, roll – over and back to sleep.
July 31st, 2010
4:56 pm
Do I think a 39 year old Shaq can lead us to a title? Yes, if he's fit, avoids injury and keeps a good attitude.
Do I think a 39 year old Shaq can set us back 2 years? Yes, if he's a locker room and public cancer.
If he's just injured alot – we end up somewhere between the 2 extremes.
We actually match up well with the Lakers with Shaq:
PG- Fisher/Blake – Teague/Bibby – Lakers more experienced – but they can't keep up with Teague – Slight adv. – Lakers
SG – Kobe vs. JJ/Jamal – Kobe is older, coming off knee surgery – and we can throw 2 guys at him – but he's still Kobe – Slight adv. – Lakers
SF – Lakers – Artest/Barnes – better than Marvin?Mo' – Adv. – Lakers
PF – Lakers – Gasol/Odom/Walton – vs Josh/Powell/sometimes Horford – Adv. – Lakers, but not by much with Horford in the mix
C- Lakers – Bynum and sometimes Odom vs Horford/ZaZa/Shaq – this would be the 1 area we would have a very definite advantage on the Lakers – and if Teague uses his quickness and develops during the season into a serviceable PG against Fisher/Blake – JJ and Jamal can together wear down Kobe – Marvin stays healthy and thrives in Drew's offense – Josh S. stays healthy – we can take these guys (the Lakers)!
As constituted -with many other variable in mind – our only realistic chance at a title this year is Shaq. (Of course DWade could go down, Kobe could get hurt etc. – I'm saying all things equal).
July 31st, 2010
4:58 pm
Drmaryb – couldn't agree with about your last 7 or 8 posts more!
PG and C are a little better than in years past BTW
July 31st, 2010
5:05 pm
Supertrade – Bibby – Mo' – 1st pick to Cavs for
Shaq – Mo Williams
use 3.66m trade exception
sign Trey Gilder to back up Marvin
They may take it to have Bibby train Ramon Sessions at PG – and get something rather nothing for Shaq
We then match up well with ORL.
Shaq would have to agree to sign for less than the MLE in this scenario – about 3m per.
July 31st, 2010
5:11 pm
Nire – probably right on right on Marvin – only talking on the Offensive side of the ball – very good defender.
Marvin just looks like he's not sure what to do when he gets the rock sometimes. Maybe that had to do with Woody.
Unlike Bibby – when he get's the ball – he looks like he knows exactly what to do with it anywhere on the court.
Is it confidence maybe? Both Kwame and Marvin didn't have much high level basketball experience before the NBA.
July 31st, 2010
5:12 pm
1 too many "right on" in 1st sentence of last post – my bad!
July 31st, 2010
5:22 pm
Your posts are fantastic and I look forward to reading you daily.
For the life of me, I can't figure out WHY a perennial loser like the Hawks can make so many
lame excuses about why we can't sign this guy or that guy? Or, why this guy doesn't fit our team and may
ruin our CHEMITRY?
Are you kidding me? How much CHEMISTRY does it take to be a perennial loser?
Aye … ASG! Just sign Shaq for the love of basketball – and stop bytching!
July 31st, 2010
5:28 pm
I think your 5:11 nailed it – Marvin has no confidence and is unsure of what to do when he gets the rock. At least that was the case last season. The odd thing was that '07-'08 and '08-'09 Marvin played with much more confidence offensively – and noticeably less confidence defensively. I am in the "blame Woody" camp as to the reason why. I just hope it's not too late for him to turn it around and get back to his pre-back injury form.
July 31st, 2010
5:36 pm
Are the Hawks a better defensive interior defensive team, or a better perimeter defensive team? Let's find out.
The following is from hoopdata.com
League Averages:
3 POINTERS – 53.2% ( eFG% )
Hawks Defense
AT RIM: 60.7% ( 16th in the league . . 3rd worst amongst playoff teams . . only Dallas and Portland were worse )
< 10 FT: 41.4% ( 6th in the league )
10 – 15 FT: 37.5% ( 3rd in the league )
16 – 23 FT: 41.1% ( 23rd in the league . . . worst amongst playoff teams )
3 POINTERS: 51.7% ( 9th in the league )
People shouldn't be too shocked by this. We tend to have trouble defending at the rim, and especially at the mid-range. Defending the 3 pointer isn't the problem, it's defending that deep 2 point jumper that is the problem. The 21 footer that people seem to always be wide open on.
Just for the hell of it, let me see how we look offensively.
Once again, these are the league averages:
3 POINTERS – 53.2% ( eFG% )
Hawks Offense
AT RIM: 63.1% ( 8th in the league )
< 10 FT: 44.2% ( 14th in the league )
10 – 15 FT: 41% ( 11th in the league )
16 – 23 FT: 39.5% ( 18th in the league )
3 POINTERS: 54% ( 9th in the league )
This shouldn't surprise many people either. When we do get to the rim, we score pretty well. The problem is that we don't get to the rim enough. Meanwhile, we're just an average long midrange shooting team. The disturbing part of that stat, is that we were 5th in the league in attempts from that range, but ranked 18th in percentage.
You can attribute JJ and Crawford settling for long 2's, as well as Marvin missing, and Josh taking ill-advised 2 pointers, as the reason why our percentage from this range is simply at the league average.
Will the new offense create more shot attempts at point blank range, or more open jumpers out on the midrange . .and for the right people? Can Teague penetrate enough to get to the rim and make his own shot, or set up others for easy shots. That's going to be the big questions next season on offense.
July 31st, 2010
5:48 pm
Woody … Woody. …. Woody … POODY!
For Christ's Sakes! Woody is GONE people!
Yall are gonna' kill him dead and BLAME him for 911! Why not add World Hunger!
IF Marvin Sucks? That's because Marvin Sucks !!!
Aye ASG! Sign Shaq and go on vacation!
July 31st, 2010
5:53 pm
"Truth . . what in the world are you looking at?"
I was shock too, but to find it per my link, you have to select under the category button "defensive" and click update. You see the Team Defensive Statistics for 2009-2010, Boston in 29th position. Since this stat is under NBA.com website I have to assume it is accurate
I don't make this stuff up
July 31st, 2010
6:21 pm
One of the main problems with Marvin, is that he's never been a "go-to scorer" since high school. At UNC, he was simply a complimentary player.
Some people have long said that Marvin's best position may be PF, instead of SF. But he shoots well enough ( at times ) to be a big SF. It would be interesting though, if he went to a team that played him at PF, if he would become a much better player than he is at SF.
I know for a fact that he's a better PF than Josh Powell.
And Ken . . . yes I would trade Marvin for Shaq, because I know Shaq gives us something that we don't have . . . interior toughness. Marvin, at SF, is really going to have to start becoming either a lights-out open jumpshot shooter, a lockdown defender, or the type of slasher that he showed flashes of becoming 2 years ago.
My concern with Marvin, is the concern that everybody else shares . . his desire to improve and be a better player. The desire just isn't there at times. People can blame the coach all they want, but other players who have come here didn't have any problem whatsoever in being aggressive.
He can't continue to let the "new guy" come in and take some of his shine away from him. To me, he seems like a player that will never reach his potential, unless it's for sure that he's the #1 or #2 guy on a team. His willingness to be a complimentary player is an asset, but not one that will ever see him become a real good player.
July 31st, 2010
6:25 pm
Just for clarification . . . Truth, the stat in which you saw Boston being 29th in, was in rebounding. Boston was a weak rebounding team last year, especially on the offensive boards.
But they were excellent overall on defense.
July 31st, 2010
6:45 pm
I blame Jason Collins, Dennis Scott, and Shaq for World Hunger, not Woody.
July 31st, 2010
7:01 pm
You nailed it on Marvin! He is NOT a starting SF at the NBA level. He has proven that to ad nauseum.
He may be a fine back-up PF to Josh and Al as you eluded to the fact he may be a better PF.
That means we need a SF and we had one in Childress, but we know how that turned out.
One fundamental flaw that I have mentioned in regards to this team, is there are too many players that are playing out of position, back-ups included.
We got one aging PG
Three PF's (w/Marvin)
Three combo guards (Jamal & Teague & Jo.Craw)
JJ is the only SG
Maurice? (What is he? SG/SF?)
Too many square pegs crammed in round holes if you ask me.
And, no clearly defined roles outside of Joe & Al.
A pile of Hot-Pieces, if you ask me.
July 31st, 2010
7:04 pm
That was – Rich! -smile-
Aye … You busted on D-Scott too? Oh no! That's my boy!
July 31st, 2010
7:04 pm
Northcyde – I wouldn't trade Marvin for Shaq.
Marvin hurt his back pretty severely in '09.
He tried to gut it out for the playoffs – but I think it hindered his offseason last year, and he played tenatively this year.
I would give him this year to see if he's gonna start back improving, or is he permanetly set back.
Hawks officials probably know how he's spending his summer. If he's in full workout, get better mode – good
Anything less – not so good – and then I would trade him.
July 31st, 2010
7:45 pm
I specialize in spinal care. That was 2 years ago man! He just had a mild to moderate
muscle sprain/strain. That was not serious. I heard no mention of any back problems this year?
Man, Yall need to stop baby-sitting Marvin. Dude making 35 Million, he don't need sympathy too.
Man up and play, play with some fire, heart and passion – I say.
July 31st, 2010
8:03 pm
It's not for nothing that nire's new pet phrase is "not for nothing"
July 31st, 2010
8:05 pm
NORTHCYDE-you act like Marvin's 10.1PPG represents the highest pt total of his career, or the absolute best he can do. While he definitely had a down yr scoring wise last yr, he did play very good DEF. The reduction in his scoring, from a high of 14.7PPG to 10.1PPG, reflects his annual demotion in the OFF pecking order with the acquisition of Bibby, FMurray and then JaCrawford.
You seem convinced Shaq is somehow going to bring us this much needed toughness coming off the bench. Tell me, where was all of this toughness when he was with the Cavaliers, or the Suns? If he's so damned tough, why has he nursed so many sprains into so many missed gms? Shaq is big and he's strong, BUT HE AINT TOUGH.
The following is a partial list of teams that defeated Orlando last yr. The Bobcats, Hornets, Grizzles, Trail blazers, Raptors, Nuggets, Pacers, Bulls, Suns, Jazz, Thunder, Pistons, Wizards and Heat(who beat them twice). Can you name the individual center on each team that was responsible for stopping DHoward? YOU ARE FOCUSED ON TRYING TO STOP ONE PLAYER, WHICH IS HOW WOODSON THOUGHT.
At this point, how many GM's and/or HC's do you think are as overly concerned about stopping DHoward as you seem to be? And how many of those GM's and HC's think Shaq is the answer? THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION JUST MIGHT EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY HE'S STILL AVAILABLE?
July 31st, 2010
8:17 pm
You may specialize in spinal care, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you never examined Marvin, and thus have no idea what the extent of his injury was. Sports teams generally use misdirection as far as how serious their players' injuries are, and given that Marvin was in a contract year, he had an incentive to downplay its seriousness as well.
In any case, specialist or not, you shouldn't pull a Bill Frist and express a medical opinion regarding the physical state of someone you've never examined.
July 31st, 2010
8:18 pm
That ain't new. Not for nothing, but I've been saying that ever since I started watching West Wing and Sports Night about a decade ago
July 31st, 2010
8:23 pm
STEVEW-you mentioned Marvin hurting his back, and that he still tried to tough it out. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THAT ABOUT SHAQ? Oh, and for the record, DHoward averaged 17.1PPG and 11.1RPG in the 3gms they went head to head. This is what worries me most about us signing Shaq. He might lower his demands just to get us to offer him a contract. Then, once he gets his contract, he might come in and try to force LDrew into giving him more mins and more scoring opportunities by becoming, or threatening to become, a disruption.
July 31st, 2010
8:32 pm
Ken Strickland
You make very strong points against Shaq coming here. But, we need that piece, not for the regular season
but the play-offs. Those teams that beat Orlando in the regular, could not beat Orlando in a best of
7 consecutive games.
The play-offs is another animal. It's about match-ups! The Hawks are a BIG and very
long and athletic team. We just need a solid defensive scheme and some solid set plays!
Outside of LeBron, the Cavaliers weren't very good at all.
The Suns, run too much and never played ANY defense at all – until last year.
Shaq does fake injuries during the regular season, he did that in LA too. Kobe's main gripe was that
Shaq was lazy and not serious enough in practice and in general. When younger,
I think Shaq relied on his size and strength in lieu of focus and intensity.
Much, like Vick did in Atlanta, he never really committed to learning the play book and working hard with the team.
Allen Iverson, had the same attitude through out his career: remember his rant about – PRACTICE? With Larry Brown?
Here's my point: Shaq did not fit those other teams, (Cavs & Suns) – True Dat!
But, that doesn't mean he can't help the Hawks get past round 2 and maybe WIN a title?
We are not those teams! If we had Doc as a HC, he could definitely utilize Shaq's talents for the
betterment of the team! Who knows, maybe DREW can too! Either way, when you listen to Doc's huddles –
It's always TOGETHER and TEAM! I hope Drew runs an identical huddle next year!
Dwight said it best: The Hawks are a very BIG TEAM! You can thank ole' Billy-Boy Knight for the size we have, and bash him for the PG situation for the next 20 years! He really screwed us with that CP3 Snub!
Oh Well! I say beggars can't be choosy and we need a big! I'll take Shaq in a minute!
High Risk – High Reward!
"You can not steal Second base – If, your foot is still on First!"
July 31st, 2010
8:54 pm
To me Shaq will be as useful as Collins on D. Collins can do great work on D on most anyone, but he doesn't have the footspeed to keep up with Dwight. Shaq won't either. He's old, overweight and slow. He's not the answer.
We need someone young, quick who's long and strong. Someone who loves to eat the glass and can block a few shots. Who is that mythical prospect? Can't say. I know it's not Shaq. I liked some of the D-League kids last Feb as options. I think Ajinca could be had cheap.
Youth is the low risk, high reward. Look into it PLEASE!
Shaq is an old, slow cancer waiting to set us back years!
July 31st, 2010
8:56 pm
You can get picked off headed to 2nd if your runner is too slow. FOOTSPEED please!
July 31st, 2010
9:00 pm
Well we have nothing and Shaq is better than nothing.
Yall can draw up these imaginary people all you want, until then, we need a live person.
Say what you want, we will not WIN 53 and get past round 1 by doing nothing.
IF you don't believe me? Ask Al! He knows better than me or you.
Are you saying the Big Alien is better than Shaq? Because we don't have him either, he's in Miami.
July 31st, 2010
9:05 pm
As much as I know it'll hurt Al's feelings I'm saying I'd rather have a roster vacancy than to sign Shaq. I'd rather give up Mo, Bibby, the 3 million TPE to get someone instead of Shaq.
The only way I'd say Shaq is an option would be to see that he's lost weight, he's determined to show ORL, Miami & CLE what he has left for a reunion with Kobe to battle out he who dies with the most rings wins. Instead he's out partying and worried about his TV show while faking injuries, getting divorced and derailing yet another team. THE GUY IS DONE!
July 31st, 2010
9:06 pm
I guess you LIKE the core too!
Well, this core is NOT good enough to get to second either.
So, you can sit on first and whine all year! And, when you do? I don't want to hear it!
If Boston had the money? Shaq would be in Bean Town – ight?
July 31st, 2010
9:12 pm
Reese's Pieces!
When a HC looks down that bench? What will he see? Jason Collins?
Good Luck with that! You guys need to put that Joy-Stick down and get a reality check!
This team has too many holes in it, while the East Coast just created a Montser.
Go Figure!
July 31st, 2010
9:14 pm
I'm not saying I love our core either. You're a bit too over the top all of the sudden on Shaq. I just think we need footspeed, strength and youth to keep up with Dwight. The kid is too strong, too fast and too young for Shaq.
I'd trade anyone on the team for ample return with maybe the exception of Joe, Al and maybe Josh. That said Josh needs to show some maturity and discipline this year.
Just cause I don't like Shaq you can't throw me under the bus.
I actually believe LD and his crew can do a little better than Woody's stubborn ways.
July 31st, 2010
9:15 pm
I didn't ask for Collins. I didn't ask for Powell, but at least Powell has youth on his side as well as home cooking and a ring to push him along.
July 31st, 2010
9:16 pm
What is your opinion of Okafor if they're trying to dump him? What can we get him for? He was a good defensive center?
July 31st, 2010
9:21 pm
Name your man then. If not Shaq, then who? Because, the Hawks as is? Ain't scaring NOBODY!
July 31st, 2010
9:23 pm
Dalembert, Okafur, Pryzbilla should be attainable?
July 31st, 2010
9:29 pm
July 31st, 2010
9:30 pm
Steimsma, Ajinca, Butch, Alred are all dying for a shot.
July 31st, 2010
9:33 pm
We can beg to differ, but Shaq won't help us anymore than he did the Cavs or Suns. Explain how if their solid disciplined team fell apart how is Shaq supposed to help Josh be more mature and productive? If we just had Josh's head on straight Dwight wouldn't be such a load. I honestly think that was what really pissed Al off in the games.
July 31st, 2010
9:40 pm
northcyde, great points again. If we do start turning the ball over, our offensive will suffer and our defensive will get even worse. But I think those numbers reflect our regular season problems against teams with very good offensives. Golden State, NY, Phoenix all gave us a lot of problems because they could score. But our real problem is winning in the Playoffs, which will require us to maximize our strengths and mimize our weaknesses. Horford is going to have to play better one-on-one defensive and Bibby is going to have to do a better job of staying in front of his man. Hopefully our new offense and more standard defense will also help. For all that happen this summer in terms of players moving, our team might have done the best thing by just staying together and incorporating a different playing style.
July 31st, 2010
10:10 pm
Shaq is available ….. Available ….. AVAILABLE! Without destroying the core – that is the POINT!
Prsyzbilla has a torn up knee – big time. I think he tore his PCL? A rare thing to do and hard as heck to heal.
A hyper-extension injury. That igament os almost impossible to fully rehab at his age.
No Good.
I think Perkins in Boston, tore his MCL and PCL: WOW! DANG! He's gpt a looong way back too. These BIG guys don't heal very well oin the knees and foot. Too much weight bearing on pivot joints.
The knee is the most complicated joint in the entire body, too many ligaments and muscles to anchor down.
ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL, Medial Meniscus, Lateral Meniscus, Patella Tendon, Patella, Distal Femur, Proximal Tibia, Proximal Fibula, Quadriceps Muscle: is Biceps Femoris, Vastus Medialis, Vastus Lateralis, Sartorius. Calf-Muscles: is Gastrocnemius, Soleus. Hamstring Muscles: Adductor Magnus, Semimembranosus, Semitendinosus, Biceps Femoris (long head), Gracilis.
Man ALL that ISH anchors on the knee. If a basketball player was a horse, you would have to take dude out back and shoot him in the head (due to the weight bearing down on the joint), would be impossible to heal.
A basketball player (specifically Center) carries the most weight and can heal almost 100%. With
surgery and critical rehab. But ALL those atrophied muscles have to be rehabilitated like you wouldn't believe! Your'e talking up to two years and a whole lot of player determination.
Even, then they never regain ALL that leapability and superior strength:
Look at: Oden, Jamal Mashburn, Tracy McGrady, Penny Hardaway, Elton Brand (achilles/knee?),
Pryszbilla (multiple knee injuries and set-backs), CP3 (likely to need micro-fracture this year?), Bynum, Kobe,(he plays with un-believable pain), Vince Carter, etc.
I don't think Shaq has ever had a Knee Injury? He is so strong! But older and slower.
We could still use Shaq's skills at 38 tho.
Yao Ming (talking quits – bad foot w/too much weight to heal)
Fundamentals man, BIG MAN – don't grow on trees! They come very rare and take a long long time to develop. ( See Habeet).
I actually think Zsa-Zsa could be our developmental BIG, if we just get him in a big man camp! And hire a specialist to develop his foot work on the team. (I.E. Patrick Ewing)
Here's My Point: they just ain't lying around for the Hawks to pick and choose from, or any other team for that matter. So, attitudes aside – Get Shaq in here!
July 31st, 2010
10:33 pm
I specialize in extremity joint care: that means:
Joint Alignment and Sports Injury Rehabilitation with ALL the Physio-Therapeutic Rehabilitation.
Upper Extremity: Shoulder/Elbow/Wrist/Hand
Lower Extremity: Hip/Knee/Ankle/Foot
It's what I do!
I am the team doctor for the IWFL: Atlanta Xplosion (I diagnose, rehab and make surgical referrals)
for that team. 2006 National Champions. I travel to all their games Home and Away (Dallas, LA, Miami, Louisiana, West Palm Beach, Orlando and N.C.). Since 2002
See Atlanta Xplosion.Com
I also work with the WNBA (Atlant Dream) behind the scenes.
I AM an EXPERT in my field! FYI.
I have nothing to prove on a blog? I just love sports in general … Tennis is my Racket! (I played in College on a 4 year scholarship). But, I love all sports from Golf to LaCrosse and everything in between.
But, I read the report on Marvin's back problem. It was a sprained muscle for crying out loud and that was 2 years ago. Give it a rest! I have three titanium rods and four pedicle screws in my lumbo-sacral spine.
Been there done that. There is NOTHING spinal related that I don't know about!
Absolutely NOTHING! Marvin had NO back issues this past year! NONE!
He just Sucked – that's ALL!
July 31st, 2010
10:39 pm
Ken Strickland – you kinda prove a point for bringing Shaq in here – he only average 17.1ppg and 11.1 rpg versus Shaq – he averaged 18.3 and 13.2 overall – so Shaq did slow him down a little. And Shaq was playing less than half the game this year – who else did they have on Dwight with the Cavs/ Anderson Varejo?
I took Howard's comments as – "Please don't get Shaq ATL, because we're in trouble if you do" – I know, kind of reading between the lines – but the word in the NBA is the only way to stop Howard is that he is bothered by someone bigger than he is (or put him at the line – ha!).
July 31st, 2010
10:39 pm
Average should be "averaged" in the above post – sorry
July 31st, 2010
10:40 pm
The Latest on Shaq – His Price is To High For Now
"The Hawks reportedly have cooled to the idea of adding C Shaquille O'Neal, because, for now, his asking price is too high.
If he were to end up in Atlanta, he'd be in the same division as Magic C Dwight Howard, which would make it Superman vs. Superman four times a year during the regular season.
When asked whether O'Neal would be a good fit for the Hawks, Howard told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "I don't know. I like their lineup now. I know a lot of people get mad and say they're not big on the inside, but they're a big team. They've got big guards. They've got big forwards. They've got a flying forward (Josh Smith). So it doesn't really matter about having a seven-footer."
Howard also said that O'Neal's "presence in the locker room" might be the biggest asset to a team looking to acquire him at this stage in his career".
Read more: http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/The_Baseline/entry/view/73056/hawks_reportedly_have_backed_off_trying_to_add_shaq#ixzz0vJkccIFY
July 31st, 2010
10:42 pm
Post this on Shaq's locker and in his weight room to motivate him:
Howard also said that O'Neal's "presence in the locker room" might be the biggest asset to a team looking to acquire him at this stage in his career".
July 31st, 2010
10:46 pm
Howard told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "I don't know. I like their lineup now.
Translation – "We just swept ATL in the largest margin on victory in the history of the NBA. Please don't let them improve – we've already got the Heat and the Celts to worry about. I like ATL just the way they are – as constituted, we will crush them by almost the same margin this year if we happen to meet in the playoffs"
July 31st, 2010
10:53 pm
Drmaryb – don't you think his back problem could have been not physical this year – but mental? I used to coach small college basketball, and I remember that long after knee injuries were healed, the psychological factor of fear of re-injuring/ going slow because you were unsure were tough hings to overcome. Different kids handled it differently. Some took more time than others. Just wondered if Marvin didn't have a good sports psychologist to coax him thru. Your thoughts appreciated since you work in the field.
July 31st, 2010
10:56 pm
Spinal – Finals!
The only two players I know of with Serious and Structural Spinal Issues are:
Steve Nash: DX: Spondylolisthesis (anterior displacement of a spinal vertebrae) at L5 upon S1. – acquired
TJ Ford: DX: Spinal Stenosis Congenital (narrowing of the spinal canal) – born with this.
July 31st, 2010
11:02 pm
After looking at my stat link again (upside down and then right side up), it is a bit difficult to get an overall defensive ranking from the page. It seems the table has broken down the Team Defensive Statistics for 2009-2010 into subgroups named RPG, BPG and SPG. Each subgroup is broken down further into HME OPP Diff (their difference). While I presented only a partial assessment of Boston poor defense performance at 29th (HME rebounding per game) I did not tell the full story. For convenience and expediency, it maybe better to just highlight the Diff (their difference) in each of these groups. That way you get a better picture (faster) from the spread or the difference of team performing against the opposition. If you applied this to the table, Boston would be ranked 25th on RPG diff (still very poor), ranked 15th on BPG diff (better but just average), and ranked 1st on SPG (excellent). If this was a kid's report card the grades would show A, C, F with an overall GPA of about a 2.0/4.0 without KG for most of the regular season. Just goes to show how adding the right player to a team can make difference.
July 31st, 2010
11:18 pm
Excellent question! For what I recall? Marvin just had a pulled muscle, nothing structural.
Sort of like if you pulled a hamstring in football. Which is actually worse, because the thigh muscles are so HUGE. The low back muscles are 5 layers deep and are flat and layered.
The most likely injured low back muscle is the Quadratus Lumborum
(Lateral Flexors). The only muscle in the entire body that attaches to the lateral (sides) of the discs.
Side to Side bending … Imagine sliding your hand down the outside of the thigh to touch the outside of the knee? It also attaches to the bottom of the rib cage (12th rib) the top of the Illium (pelvic at the waist line).
Prognosis: Good
Treatment: Electric Muscle Stimulation, Ultra-Sound, Cryo-Therapy – (Ice), Heat, Rest, followed by spinal
adjustment for vertebral mis-alignment once swelling and pain subside.
Common Sports Injury
July 31st, 2010
11:20 pm
Excellent question! From what I recall? Marvin just had a pulled muscle, nothing structural.
Sort of like if you pulled a hamstring in football. Which is actually worse, because the thigh muscles are so HUGE. The low back muscles are 5 layers deep and are flat and layered.
The most likely injured low back muscle is the Quadratus Lumborum
(Lateral Flexors). The only muscle in the entire body that attaches to the lateral (sides) of the discs.
Side to Side bending … Imagine sliding your hand down the outside of the thigh to touch the outside of the knee? It also attaches to the bottom of the rib cage (12th rib) the top of the Illium (pelvic at the waist line).
Prognosis: Good
Treatment: Electric Muscle Stimulation, Ultra-Sound, Cryo-Therapy – (Ice), Heat, Rest, followed by spinal
adjustment for vertebral mis-alignment once swelling and pain subside.
Chief Complaint: Sore Back Muscles and localized pain
Common Sports Injury
July 31st, 2010
11:22 pm
Drmaryb – I am gradually being brought around to the view that Marvin just might have regressed last year. I hope it was only a 1 year glitch, and not a pattern as so often happens.
July 31st, 2010
11:23 pm
P.S. And not due to a back injury I should add
July 31st, 2010
11:38 pm
Shaq is not the reason the Cavaliers lost in the Play-Offs. Boston just whupped that butt! Just like they did Orlando!
Also, there was some serious CHEMISTRY ISH going on over there, that had NOTHING to do with Shaq!
Delonte West was banging LeBron's Mamma & LeBron found out about it after game 2!
LeBron was also yelling at the Coach on the sideline for not playing James Hickson when LeBron wanted him to. LeBron quit on his team and also reports say, LeBron treated the equipment manager
like an illegal immigrant. Word is, LeBron is a tyrant behind the scenes in general.
Not a very nice dude! Don't blame everything on Shaq! I'm just sayin'
Heck, we ain't got NO money and the ASG can't afford him anyways! Geþ your popcorn ready – it's gonna' be a long long season!
July 31st, 2010
11:47 pm
Also, for the folks comparing Boston defensive stats with others – remember by their own admission, Boston basically took the regular season"off" to prepare for the playoffs.
Look at their playoff "D" stats if you want to see the true Boston statistics.
July 31st, 2010
11:47 pm
When Dwight makes this statement about the Hawks at not good:
"When asked whether O'Neal would be a good fit for the Hawks, Howard told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "I don't know. I like their lineup now."
What we really wish he would say (one day) when referring to the Hawks:
"I really hate playing this team; I get punked every time when I play them"
July 31st, 2010
11:49 pm
Correction: "When Dwight makes this statement about the Hawks its not good:"
August 1st, 2010
12:00 am
How many of you think Shaq will be content to sit on our bench and receive limited mins until the playoffs, or until we play Orlando? The key to limiting a player like DHoward is good perimeter DEF. Since his OFF is very limited when he's more that 6ft from the basket, forcing him to come out and receive the entry pass is the key to defending him.
Once he comes out to get the ball and starts making his move, the PG drops down and forces him to pick up his dribble, then he quickly gets back to his man. PG JTeague has the speed, quickness and athleticism to do all of that effectively, and so does JaCrawford. Bibby does a poor job of pressuring the ball, and he's not very effective at recovering and getting back to his man either.
It's also a very good idea to try and confuse a player like Howard by using different players from different positions and angles to force him to pick up his dribble. That makes it more confusing for him to decide who he should make his outlet pass to.
FUNDAMENTALS-I think JCollins will be more effective on DEF this yr. One reason is LDrew will actually allow him off the bench. To me, if you have a particular on your team who's there to defend a certain player, or a certain type of player, it makes sense to play him some quality mins a gm or 2 before the team meets that certain player.
I think Collins will have more foot speed and mobility now that he's lost some of that weight.
August 1st, 2010
12:28 am
KS . . . Marvin's PPG total isn't what I was talking about. His effectiveness and mentality as a player is what I'm talking about. He basically let 2 guys come in here ( Flip and Jamal ) and let them take playing time away from him. He can't allow that to happen, and expect things to change.
I know you'll blame that all on Woody, but it goes back to Marvin's "I'm cool with being a complimentary player" mentality.
Smoove flat out refuses to be a complimentary player, and goes all out. . . even do things that he has no business doing ( shooting long jumpers ). But Marvin . . he's cool with anything. And when you're a player that doesn't do one particular thing very well, that type of complacency will see your playing time get cut.
I like Marvin. He's a solid player. But he needs to decide if he's going to become an impact player or not. And he doesn't need to be a 18 ppg scorer to be an impact player either. If defense is his strength now, then be known as a top 10 defender in the league.
Strive to be real good at something.
August 1st, 2010
12:57 am
Aye … NorthCyde, I've been saying that for years. The team never seemed to have defined roles nor a team identity. Looked like free-lancing on offense, if it wasn't a fast-break? There were no set plays, no rythm in the half court sets.
That's coaching.
August 1st, 2010
1:07 am
And Ken . . if Shaq came here, I wouldn't advocate him receiving limited minutes. He's at least getting 20 – 25 minutes a game.
The problem with what you talk about Ken, is that you keep speaking in "hypotheticals", all predicated on "if this happens" or "if that happens"
You talk about forcing Howard to come out and receive an entry pass. Well who on this team is strong enough to keep him from getting good post position 5 – 10 feet from the basket?
Horford is our center. He has to play 30+ minutes a night. He's going to be the guy matched up against Howard the vast majority of the time. And he has proven not to even be able to slow down Dwight . . at all. Zaza could, when Dwight was 20. Collins couldn't ever do it.
And you speak about Teague? A PG that we have no idea what he can actually do yet on a grand scale. Just "beliefs" that he can get it done, like he's a top notch PG? You have much higher expectations for Teague, than anyone else on this board. I hope he does become Andre Miller, which is basically your expectation for the kid. I'll gladly give you props, if Teague just comes right in and runs the show, making us an efficient basketball machine.
We threw the entire kitchen sink at Howard in the playoffs. Played him straight up. Doubled him. Tripled him. Played 4 different people on him ( Horford, Zaza, Collins, Morris ). And not a dang thing worked.
But Drew and Conner are going to come in here in one year, and implement some great innovative defensive system to slow that dude down?
And the other thing is that none of our guys can really make Howard work on the other end, and defend him. The way that teams have been able to attack Howard, is to be able to do it on BOTH ENDS of the court. It's what Shaq and Cleveland did in the first ORL vs CLE matchup. It's what Charlotte and their bigs and slashers did in the CHA vs ORL 1st round series.
We can do everything that you want the Hawks to do, PLUS add the biggest man in the NBA as our anchor for 20 – 25 minutes a game. But you're against that for some reason. And it has very little to do with Shaq's playing ability or if he could be effective vs Howard.
Instead, you try to sell us that a non-productive player like Jason Collins ( who won't play more than 10 minutes a night ), can come in and do the job? A guy that doesn't have a post move to his name, can't block shots, can't rebound. But oh . . he's a "great" locker room guy.
You try to sell us that Josh Powell, a guy that has had 1/2 of a good season in the NBA, as a guy who can be an adequate backup PF that can help us? Even though Marvin is better at PF, than Powell is?
You try to sell us that Zaza is going to improve defensively, and be able to get it done?
I'm sorry Ken . . but most of the fan base just isn't buying that. I'm definitely not buying it. If Horford doesn't become a bad azz at the center position, it probably isn't going to happen via Jason Collins becoming a "tough guy" that we can throw at people.
We'll win 50 games. We're good enough to still have an exciting season. But please man. Don't try to sell us on a dude like Jason Collins. Don't try to sell us that scheme alone is going to get us over the hump.
The teams that dramatically improve in this league, almost always do it via a personnel change. A coaching change, for the most part, simply doesn't do it.
We're all Hawks fans. But we're definitely on opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
August 1st, 2010
1:24 am
drmaryb . . Woody did promote a lot of freelancing. He pretty much put the ball in JJ's hands, and let him run the offense like an option QB in football. His offensive schemes definitely weren't complex. You stop JJ, most of the time, you stop the offense.
Drew wants to give more responsibility to more people in the offense, so to make us less predictable. We'll see if that works or not. And we'll see if it makes Marvin a more aggressive and efficient player, or if he simply settles for whatever comes his way.
At the very least, Marvin could be an energy guy in the mold of what Childress was. But you only see him do that on rare occasions.
People are simply going to have to step up next year . .. from our $124 million dollar man on down.
August 1st, 2010
2:58 am
Joe made 124M doing what he did. He's gonna come back next year and do it again.
A tiger doesn't change his stripes, he's not the reason this team got swept by an aggregate
of 101 points. It takes a TEAM to lose by that many, a very flawed system from the
ASG down to the equipment manager – period.
One man can't be that bad or that good to overcome a 101r point deficit. This team had NO
PG and hasn't for 13 years. This team has no BIG center and hasn't for 13 years.
Unless Joe is buying the groceries and cooking the dinner? He can never be the problem.
LeBron couldn't do it either – and he made a 100M before he ever saw the inside of a NBA locker room.
It's called a NIKE SHOE CONTRACT!
Joe made 124M, because that's what the Market valued his services for. Not because he robbed a bank with a ski mask and an Ouzie. How much money he makes really has nothing to do with HOW he plays
Basketball. That's just what he is worth, whether we fans like it or NOT. And, believe me,
LeBron will triple that playing in Miami, when you add his endorsements and et. al.
Plus no state taxes. Joe will pay nearly 48% of that 124M in State and Federal taxes – believe that.
I really don't care how much he makes, it's not my money. Besides ASG will make 6 times what Joe makes off that deal anyways. TV, Merchandise, Tickets, etc. etc.
LeBron, Wade nor Dwight or Joe will win anything without help, at the very least a:
PG and a Center. That's two positions you can not win without, unless you are Kobe or MJ!
The End
August 1st, 2010
9:22 am
DrMaryB – I can agree that there were more problems in CLE than O'Neal. Miami will learn that when they implode under the pressure of too high expectations.They think they have the maturity, work ethic and desire of KG & Ray Allen, but they don't. Pierce had to learn, he's gained my respect over the years.
If Shaq could address Hawks fans and be honest about his desire to play here I might buy in? Long shot, but he needs to say, show and prove that he's here for a ring. He's here cause he thinks we're his best opportunity. He's here for TEAM, he's here to push our kids to grow. I'm not sure that he's that selfless. He's always been focussed on his own party first, basketball when he needs to, and generally being lazy IMHO. Getting another team a ring would help his legacy. His last two stops haven't shown much about his ethic IMHO.
I agree with other bloggers that Marvin hasn't recovered mentally from the back injury. Does he fall alot cause he's all out pushing the basket aggressively, or is he just uncoordinated? I personally think the kid needs to build strength to his core if he's going to drive the bucket that hard again. He's shown the ability to shoot the ball, but can't stay involved enough to be ready. That shows more maturity and patience are needed. If he's going to be part of our future he's gotta be ready when the opportunity comes, he's gotta be as strong as possible and he's gotta keep pushing. We'll know by Feb what we've got in Marvin under LD.
Collins will do better if given minutes. Yeah he had problems against Dwight, but he didn't have any minutes to get his game speed and footwork back up to speed. For you Shaq lovers he didn't need it to outwork Shaq on the court. I loved the night he embarrassed Shaq. I will also agree that he wasn't the answer we were looking for. He's gotta come into camp in shape, work hard and prove his value. I predict he'll be the man in the suit all year long. Wasted spot, wasted salary, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be valuable to this team if he worked hard. Ask my wife I don't prefer cheeseburgers.
August 1st, 2010
9:36 am
Hrey Horford plays Center out of position pretty darned well, but as he said, "I am a natural PF."
August 1st, 2010
10:18 am
You Sir, are a very smart man with an astute observation up there.
Shaq is what he is – Could he help the Hawks? Absolutely he can, on and off the court in spades.
The real question is, "Can we afford to pay him and Does he really want to come here and help the Hawks?
You guys are making a pretty silly assessment about Marvin's phantom two year old pulled muscle in his lower back. But, I'm done educating lay people about how insignificant a mild sprain/strain is – two years affter the fact. I guess if yOU pulled a hamstring two years ago and get over it? Then YOU were never an athlete to begin with. That argument is beyond ludicrous, even for a three year old.
The bottom line is: Marvin is who he is and after 6 years his mold is set. The team need to help him realize his ROLE on this team and then put him in positions to be successful.
Like NorthCyde asked, " Is he a PF or a SF? ". I add, " Is he a starter or a back-up to the talent we currently have? ". And, is he like half the team, forced to play out of position and do things he clearly is not capable of doing?". And, those questions have nothing to do with whether or not his pInky is hurting!
This game is also played 98% between the ears, so, does he have IT?
I haven't seen IT in 6 years, so, I can surely say, " He does NOT!"
Time to better the team and make some moves, or get used to: Stubborn is as Stubborn does!
Mr. Woodson was NOT the Stubborn one all by himself! He cooked what was in the refrigerator and made one tasty meal, in spite of a lack of KEY ingredients! If, you don't believe me now, you will see it later.
Aye … I'm ready for some Falcon's Football!
August 1st, 2010
10:32 am
* I guess if YOU pulled a hamstring two years ago and CAN'T get over it?
August 1st, 2010
11:18 am
i am not sure where all tbis shaq bashing is coming from. he was hardly heard from last year it seemed like in comparison to years of old and took none of the spotlight away from the queen. he seemed to play his role well and they had the best record in the league after a somewhat stalled start,no? he also came back quickly from major surgery without any delay, played hard and didnt make any excuses though it was obvious the lay off had hurt him. it also probably hurt the team cohesion though not as much as the late season acquisition of a forward that did nothing in the spotlight and moving the big z. none of this was shaq's doings or at his bequest. he certainly kept his ballin to the floor rather than the mother of the key cog in the cav wheel.
i also dont remember any shenanigan's in phoenix, no demands for more time, the ball or out. when he was traded to the cavs he was graceful in his exit and i dont remember his flagellating on the suns as he left. why the acrimony for shaq as though he is going to be a bad influence in the hawks' locker room. he hasnt been that since he left the heat. remember he responded when he got to the suns with hard work to rehab himself though many thought he was finished because of his hip injury? again where is the history of him being a "bad" teammate since he left the heat or a disruptive influence in the locker room?
August 1st, 2010
11:24 am
One more thing, Shaq has no obligation nor platform to address the Hawks Fans about his intentions to play here?
He doesn't even know who we are. That is a topic for the Agent and the GM of whatever team that
has expressed interest. Be it, the Celtics, Spurs, Hawks or any other team that may arise for that matter.
Last I checked, Shaq is an UFA! Where do you get all this stuff from?
August 1st, 2010
11:56 am
Amen … Broither Man! Can I get a hallelujah from the congregation – this fine Sunday morning!
You nailed every single point on the head – blind folded! I don't get all this ISH on Shaq either.
It seems like all the perennial losers on this blog have fallen in love with this team losing!
At least, I got someone like doc – who knows how to use a hammer with passion!
Aye … ASG! Go get Shaq and pay the man to come here and help us! Show him some Love!
I don't eat Cheeseburgers or Chinese Food! We need a Steak and Lobster!
Gitter' Done!
August 1st, 2010
12:48 pm
its being talk of Juan Dixon to Atlanta, what do you all think of that?
August 1st, 2010
1:11 pm
Juan Dixon? Who is that?
August 1st, 2010
1:17 pm
Great, another backcourt bionic player
On November 1, 2009, Dixon signed with Aris Thessaloniki of the Greek A1 League.[6] The next season, he joined Unicaja Malaga of Spain. In February 2010, he was suspended indefinitely by FIBA after testing positive for steroids.[7]
August 1st, 2010
1:36 pm
Shop Till You Drop!
Shaq shopping himself in Europe? He wants 10 M per year?
August 1st, 2010
1:40 pm
LeBron accused of Agent Tampering?
First CP3 fired his agent and joined LRMR.
Now, allegedly LRMR tried to and John Wall – but failed?
Will LeBron become the 1st NBA Player to make a Kewl Billion as a Mogul?
Or a Mole?
August 1st, 2010
1:44 pm
NORTHCYDE-There's nothing HYPOTHETICAL about Shaq's contract demands, his career long habit of nursing injuries and not being tough enough to play through pain or discomfort, or his disruptive attitude whenever he feels he's not getting what he wants. THERE'S A DEFINITE REASON WHY THERE'S NOT ONE KEY PLAYER, OR TEAM, THAT HE'S EVER PLAYED WITH OR FOR WILL EVEN REMOTELY CONSIDER TAKING HIM BACK.
WHAT'S UP DOC-It has come out that Shaq did create some friction with the Cavaliers. I read where he voiced his displeasure with not receiving enough mins and scoring opportunities. I think he wanted more mins and scoring opportunities so he could pad his numbers, in order to have more bargaining power when he made the contract demands he's now making.
The Cavaliers lost LaBron and Ilgauskas, yet have refused to give resigning Shaq a single thought. If those negative comments were unfounded, don't you think they would have at least offered him a token contract, assuming they honestly thought he was what he, and some Hawks fans, think he is?
I just don't see why the Hawks, or Hawk fans, should feel more desperate than any other team about the need to sign one player to contain DHoward, or that Shaq is our only solution at this point.
Look, we can make this Shaq issue go on and on. Why, because he's given everyone enough fuel over his career, and recently, to fan the flames on all opinions of him and what he can, will and/or won't do. Personally, I don't think we need him, but I certainly wouldn't classify signing him as a waste of time either. Nor will I make an issue of us signing him, if we do, like some of our fans do when certain players they like or dislike are either signed or not signed.
My intention isn't to argue, or try to prove any one's opinion about Shaq, or what he can contribute, wrong. I'm just offering my personal opinion, along with explanations for that opinion, period. If he's signed and comes in here and makes a positive difference, few Hawk fans will be as excited as yours truly. Bottom line for me, GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
August 1st, 2010
1:49 pm
* tried to Land John Wall …..
August 1st, 2010
1:58 pm
Ken Strickland
After re-signing Joe? The Hawks haven't signed ANY one player to improve the talent on the roster, to guard
Dwight or any other Big Center for that matter. Not ONE.
August 1st, 2010
2:27 pm
Northcyde, it seems to me that Drew and Connorwill also create schemes that are undefeatable. I keep reading posts that make it sound like the opposing team did nothing right, Woody just did everything wrong. The opposing team didn;t score because they ran a good offense, it was because we ran the wrong defense. The offense wasn;t stopped by the opposing defense, but because Woody ran a predictable offense. It's alll oretty ridiculous (INO) since we were ultimately stopped by a top 2 club (Orlando) who had the DPOY and one the better defenses in the league.
What I would say is that it will take a superlative coaching effort to get this current roster in the ECF. Anything short of "the best coaching in the franchise's history" will likely result in yet another 2nd round exit.
August 1st, 2010
2:31 pm
DRMARYB-First, training camp hasn't started yet, and I doubt if the Hawks interest in Shaq has faded much. If he retreats from his stubborn position of wanting to be a starter, or a key player receiving major mins, and a 2yr guaranteed contract, we still might sign him.
But I believe we have a backup plan, hence the lack of a sense of urgency from RSund in giving into his unrealistic demands. Whether we sign Shaq or not, I believe LDrew and LConnor will still rely on a team DEF concept to get it done. With Shaq being injury prone, especially at age 38, we must still have a backup plan even with him aboard.
Remember, there have been few instances where teams have defeated the Magic by having one player capable of stopping, or even containing DHoward. The best strategy so far has been having perimeter players attacking the lane and getting him into early foul trouble. This effectively takes away his aggressiveness, which reduces the effective of their overall DEF. MBarnes was the only other starter that was regarded as more than an average defender without Dwight backing them up.
So, I feel we'll have a solid plan in place to defend DHoward, with or without Shaq.
August 1st, 2010
2:35 pm
To blame the previous coach for the offensive and defensive short-comings is to deny what the other team did to stop the Hawks. Seriously, does anyone truly believe that with a competent coach, this team is a sure-fire championship team? I don't. We were eventually stopped by a very good defensive team and the 2-time DPOY. And that team was stopped by a recent championship winner. It's nice to think that we're elite but I'm not believing it.
I will agree that in order to avoid another 2nd round playoff exit, we will likely need a "best coaching job in franchise history". Here's hoping Drew and staff can make that happen.
August 1st, 2010
2:46 pm
Juan Dixon… yeah, that's exactly what this team needs, a 3rd string undersized shooting guard.
August 1st, 2010
2:58 pm
"We are a lot longer that we've ever been," Gavin Maloof said. "We have five players over 6-11. We're a very tall team right now and that's very important to compete in this league."
I think the Hawks maybe the only team in the league that doesnt have a 7 footer on their roster (if the Collins signing is not official).
August 1st, 2010
3:15 pm
ASTRO JOE-The offensive and defensive short-comings of the previous HC were the reason teams so successfully did what they did to the Hawks.
1-Who's idea was it to utilize the switching DEF and refuse to change, modify or adjust its use no matter what?
2-Wasn't it the switching DEF that made it easy for opposing teams to use pick and rolls to create extremely favorable match ups that heavily favored them? Come on, our C's & PF's trying to defend their SG's and PG's, and our PG's & SG's under the basket trying to defend their C's & PF's.
3-Who's idea do you think it was to close out every gm, especially close gms, by having everyone but the player with the ball clear out and go ISO? No other options, no one setting picks or rolling to the basket.
MWoodson made this team into a playoff caliber team, but it took him several yrs, drafts, trades and FA signings to do so. Some of you now expect LDrew to work miracles in his first yr at the helm. HELL ASTRO, DO YOU THINK WE WOULD BE A SURE-FIRE CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM THIS YR IF WOODSON WAS STILL THE HC?
There's certainly one thing I do know. With LDrew and LConnor, we'll have a far better chance of becoming a SURE-FIRE CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM in the future.
August 1st, 2010
4:06 pm
MELVIN-The Magic, Celtics, Jazz and Spurs are all successful teams that didn't and don't have a 7′ player on their roster, and the Suns have/had only one. Didn't Dallas have two 7′ starters, Dirk and Dampier, with 7′ BHeywood coming off the bench last yr? And how much did those three 7′ players help them toward winning the title, or even getting to the dance? Didn't they have their most successful season when they made it to the NBA finals with only two 7′ players, Dirk and Dampier?
WE NEED TO STOP MAKING REDICULOUS EXCUSES FOR THE HAWKS UNDERACHIEVEMENT. If we get more efficient OFF and DEF production from our starters and bench, and more strategic support from our coaching staff, we'll have the ability to be as good as any other NBA team.
About 2 decades ago UCLA and Mich State met in the NCAA finals. Mich State was huge, with 6′6″ SG Cassie Russell being as tall a UCLA's starting center, KErickson. During a pregame interview, former Laker PG Gail Goodrich, who was on that UCLA team, was asked what were they going to do about Mich State's huge height and weight discrepancy. He calmly stated that they were the one's with the problem, because they'll have to carry all of that size and weight around trying to catch them.
Bottom line, UCLA whipped Mich State because the Bruins, unlike some Hawk fans, didn't waste time worrying about what they didn't have. They concentrated on what they did have, and utilized that to full advantage. THAT'S WHAT I'M EXPECTING FROM THE HAWKS UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF LDREW AND LCONNOR.
August 1st, 2010
4:12 pm
Quote from Dwight,
"Howard also speaks of the potential folly of the Hawks building a team specifically to counter him:
"That's only four games out of the season. You have to look long term and what's best for your team. Cleveland got Shaq to match up with the Magic. They also got Antawn Jamison to match up with the Magic. But they didn't even play the Magic. They played Boston [and lost]. You match up for the league, not just one team."
Northcyde – I tend to agree with what you said. I think this is a false flag operation by Dwight. Translation of above Dwigth quote, "We smashed ATL in NBA record fashion, historic fashion if you will. Why do I want them to improve?"
I would not at all be surprised if Shaq went to Europe, especially for 10m a year, or even less really. Also, imagine his brand going more global than it already is. Smart business move by Shaq, if that's what he really wants to do – there is probably some club willing to pay it too boost their bottom line as well.
And I would not be opposed to signing Juan Dixon, if we are going to carry 14guys. I think he could be a good 3rd PG, and maybe insurance if we traded Jamal at the trade deadline (wHich I really hope we don't, but business is business I guess).
If we can't afford to re-sign Jamal, might as well get something for him…..
Would still like 1 more big body – Shaq or Kwame – both stink in their own way -but both could help us in their own way also. I just hate to see such enormous talent go to waste with Kwame. Seems like such a good young man when he is interviewed.
Kwame plays basketball like the playground however. I got my man etc. Maybe Horford could "coach" him up, give him some pointers or something. He does fit our scheme of athletic guys.
August 1st, 2010
6:18 pm
The content of what Dwight said was right, regardless of whether he was using misdirection or not. It's amazing how often GMs panic and lose sight of the basic math that the odds that you'll face one specific team in the playoffs is slim. Steve Kerr and Danny Ferry both fell into the trap of trading for Shaq because they thought it would help them beat one particular team (the Spurs for Phoenix and the Magic for Cleveland). Teams kept trading for Dikembe for the same reason 7-9 years ago (thinking that he'd stop Shaq). It never worked.
If you let one team dictate the way you construct your roster, you've already conceded defeat IMHO. The strategy should be to build the best team overall and try to force other teams to adjust to you, not adjust yourself to other teams. If we try to beat Dwight at his own game, we'll lose.
In any case, our biggest problem against Orlando was not Dwight. It was their shooters. The Bobcats limited Dwight to 10 and 7 and still got swept. Dwight got 22 and 11 against Boston, but Boston beat the Magic beat them quite easily. I don't think a team has ever beaten Orlando by trying to beat Dwight at his own game. But teams have beaten Orlando by letting Dwight get his.
Dwight is not going to score 60 points in a game. On defense, the reason the Hawks lost is that Woody became obsessed with stopping Dwight, leaving Charlotte's shooters wide open. On offense, the ISO offense was useless because it allowed Dwight to just hang out around the rim, which cut off JJ and Jamal's floaters and running jumpers (not to mention Josh and Al's ability to score in the low post). Shaq would not help with either of those things. Having a coach who doesn't get scared shitless at the prospect of Dwight would.
August 1st, 2010
6:18 pm
The content of what Dwight said was right, regardless of whether he was using misdirection or not. It's amazing how often GMs panic and lose sight of the basic math that the odds that you'll face one specific team in the playoffs is slim. Steve Kerr and Danny Ferry both fell into the trap of trading for Shaq because they thought it would help them beat one particular team (the Spurs for Phoenix and the Magic for Cleveland). Teams kept trading for Dikembe for the same reason 7-9 years ago (thinking that he'd stop Shaq). It never worked.
If you let one team dictate the way you construct your roster, you've already conceded defeat IMHO. The strategy should be to build the best team overall and try to force other teams to adjust to you, not adjust yourself to other teams. If we try to beat Dwight at his own game, we'll lose.
In any case, our biggest problem against Orlando was not Dwight. It was their shooters. The Bobcats limited Dwight to 10 and 7 and still got swept. Dwight got 22 and 11 against Boston, but Boston beat the Magic beat them quite easily. I don't think a team has ever beaten Orlando by trying to beat Dwight at his own game. But teams have beaten Orlando by letting Dwight get his.
Dwight is not going to score 60 points in a game. On defense, the reason the Hawks lost is that Woody became obsessed with stopping Dwight, leaving Charlotte's shooters wide open. On offense, the ISO offense was useless because it allowed Dwight to just hang out around the rim, which cut off JJ and Jamal's floaters and running jumpers (not to mention Josh and Al's ability to score in the low post). Shaq would not help with either of those things. Having a coach who doesn't get scared sh!tless at the prospect of Dwight would.
August 1st, 2010
6:19 pm
*leaving Orlando's shooters wide open
*but Boston beat the Magic – and beat them quite easily
August 1st, 2010
6:43 pm
MELVIN-The Spurs, Magic, Celtics and Jazz are 4 teams without a 7′ player on their roster, and the Suns had only one. Their success is living proof you don't need a 7′ player to be successful. Last yr the Mavericks had three 7′ players on their roster, 2 starting. How much of a difference did it make as far as them winning an NBA title, or even getting to the dance? This yr, they will have 4, but when they had their most successful season, they made it to the finals with only 2.
About 2 decades ago, I remember a classic NCAA match up between UCLA and Mich State. Mich State was huge, especially compared to UCLA. Mich State's 6′6″ SG Cassie Russell was taller than UCLA's 6′5″ center Keith Erickson. Former Laker great Gail Goodrich was asked what he thought about the tremendous size and height advantage Mich State had over the Bruins. He calmly said they were the ones who had to carry around all of that size and weight while trying to deal with their speed and quickness.
UCLA whipped Mich State's butt in that gm, and they didn't do it by making an issue and whining about what they didn't have, like a lot of Hawk fans are prone to do. They did it by focusing all of their energy and effort on taking advantage of what they did have.
August 1st, 2010
6:45 pm
NIREMETAL-I'll gladly say it for you, I REST MY(OUR)CASE!!
August 1st, 2010
6:50 pm
Nire, I know in sports in general what you are saying is true – and that is my preferred modus operandi. I have thought we should just get Anthony Tolliver – good fit in Drew's offense – and be done with it. I do like the idea of making teams adjust to us.
And I have thought we are very similar to Phoenix – and Shaq really messed them up.
Orlando took advantage of JJ's play. Looked like he had contractitis to me unless he was hurt and didn't let the public know.
And Jameer did punk Bibby
And Jamal doesn't have good perimeter defense
I agree it wasn't all Dwight's doing
But on the other hand… Shaq may be a good fit – we'll let Sund and ASG make that call.
August 1st, 2010
6:54 pm
BTW it was Horford calling for an impact player, a difference maker at the Center position, besides ZaZa, for us to be any type of contender in the East. And I would trust Horford since he's the guy sluggin' it out on a nightly basis down low to provide a correct assessment of what he, Josh and the guys need.
August 1st, 2010
6:58 pm
Here is Horford's quote:
"That's good news to Al, who thinks the Hawks definitely need to acquire a bona fide center."
"We need to get another big guy, another center, that's able to help myself and Josh out," he said. "We need to have someone to come in and have an impact. I think that is the position we need if we want to be any type of contender in the East."
August 1st, 2010
7:00 pm
And unless there's somebody I'm missing – Shaq is the only impact Center left in Free Agency that would fit Horford's criteria. A trade lurking somewhere….
August 1st, 2010
7:02 pm
Horford is a player. Players make terrible GMs. End of story.
August 1st, 2010
7:06 pm
On another controversial note – barring injury – I happen to think Joe Johnson will age well. His skill set of large, athletic frame, good passer and good jump shooter bode well for that.
Josh Smith's skill set doesn't bode well for playing far into his 30's – but let's win a championship this year – and worry about the future later!
P.S. But I do think that Horford's game, frame and work ethic will let him age well – I could easily see him at 31 averaging 16 and 10….
August 1st, 2010
7:09 pm
And if I were the Heat – players with Wade's skill set don't tend to age well – speed + driving against much larger players, + battling inside for boards at his size, and not a particularly good jump shooter tend to not age well. He's an injury waiting to happen to me….
August 1st, 2010
7:10 pm
But of Wade – What a player to watch! – Kinda like the Micheal Vick of the NBA (Vick before dog fighting that is).
August 1st, 2010
7:11 pm
Bingo at 7:06, SteveW
August 1st, 2010
7:29 pm
Another HUGE problem we had with Orlando was on offense. We sucked. JJ and Jamal had horrible shooting percentages against them.
And we know Al and Josh are not going to score a bunch of points against Dwight, so we need our guards to shoot much better than they did.
August 1st, 2010
8:42 pm
I really enjoyed the blog Big Ray. I completely agree with you on the toughness part. That is the hawks main problem is toughness- both mental and physical. That is why I hated seeing Childress go, because he had that in the playoffs. I haven't seen it too much since including the 2 series that we won. To be great you have to be able to handle the pressure. I can see all these guys at times at home having moments of toughness. Maybe having Woodie gone will change that. I have my doubts though.
August 1st, 2010
8:42 pm
Amen Ken to Collins needing minutes ahead of time. Hopefully we can find some value in him and he is in shape as some speculate
DrMaryB – I realize Shaq is a free agent. I know he has no obligation to acknowledge us, but I do remember him speaking to LAL MIA PHO and CLE before his arrival. I just want to know what he really intends to do if he intends to come here. I still contend I don't like the idea. I'd rather have younger talent, even at the veterans min or MLE. He's just not worth the risk to me. I have more faith in Drew and our team and will live with whatever happens.
Playing your best and getting beaten by a better team is nothing to hang your head for. Last year we didn't live up to our potential. We honestly embarrassed ourselves in the post season. I'm hoping one day soon we'll grow up and treat ORL like we did the Celtics. It's a mental game, not a sign Shaq to save our team game. We have the pieces. LD's just gotta use them to the best of their ability.
August 1st, 2010
8:44 pm
Re-read my post. I kinda talked about that, dude.
August 1st, 2010
9:00 pm
Ken Strickland
How are you feeling these days? Are you receiving treatments and getting proper:
I hope so, because your health depends on it. So, does mine and all of us.
Make sure to say your prayers every night, because God loves you and is able.
Here is a dinner menu for you to try:
5 to 6 – Roma tomatoes (peeled and cut in half)
1 tbsp – chopped or minced garlic
1 – Vidalia Onion (sliced in 4 wedges)
1 lb – Jumbo Shrimp (de veined)
1 bag – Fresh Spinach
1 tblspn – Lemon Juice
1/2 cup – Chicken Broth
In a sauce pan coated with olive oil, sautee shrimp until pink (2 – 3 mins) add garlic, onions and sautee for another 2 mins. Add one tablespoon of lemon juice, a dash of black pepper and add tomatoes
(simmer for 2 – 3 mins). Now add 1/2 cup of chicken broth and 3 cups of spinach (simmer for 3 mins)
Enjoy your dish over linguine and a side of warm italian bread.
Enjoy a glass or two of Cabernet Sauvingon (anti-oxidant) upon retiring (heart smart)
Most of all, Get Well Soon! (I wish I could cook for you!)
August 1st, 2010
9:00 pm
Yes you did. So we are on the same page lol…
August 1st, 2010
9:16 pm
My point re: Shaq is that – unless there are serious negotiations between he and the Hawksn nearing a deal being done? It would be inappropriate to make a public statement to the Fans. If the deal falls and negotiations break down, he would look like a dud! Not kewl to put the cart before the horse, keep all
team options open.
I'm just sayin'
August 1st, 2010
9:38 pm
I really like Ken S. point of Sund waiting to the trade deadline with a wait-and-see approach to bringing in more players.
Maybe Sund can put together another trade like J. Crawford. Why pay full price for a center you can pay half price for at the trade deadline. Save the ASG a buck or two. This also gives L.Drew and staff time to identify needs of team under his leadership.
Everyone keeps dissin' Marvin, well guess what folks, surprise, "the duck" is still on the Hawks roster and starting at SF, so I would suggest you armchair gm's sit back and watch him play like the rest of us.
As for J. Chillz, he felt dissed by management, didn't want to play for the Hawks no more, so he can roast that fro' in Phoenix for all I care.
August 1st, 2010
11:48 pm
DRMARYB-Thanks for asking, you really are a special woman. I haven't received any treatment since receiving that Hormone shot, and I won't find out anything until Sep 1. I'm seriously considering doing something I really don't want to do, but I might have to, and that's move to Alabama.
Whether I decide to have the surgery or radiation treatment, I'll probably need help taking care of the 4 legged love of my life. I'm eating a lot better, and have lost 23LBS since finding out about my condition. After I beat this, I've been seriously thinking about selling everything, buying a tent, a generator, and traveling around the country. I'd prefer not to do it alone, but if I can't find someone to go with me, I still might give it a try.
On a basketball note, I don't think the Hawks are ready to become a championship caliber team this yr. There are simply too many questions that need answering. We have to commit time, mins and effort towards developing PG JTeague and SG JoCrawford. With JaCrawford becoming an UFA after this season, we must find out what we have in JoCrawford so we can decide what should be done about Jamal.
We must also re-establish SF MWilliams and PG MBibby, incorporate LDrew's offensive and LConnor's defensive systems, and integrate JPowell into the system. We also have to find out what we can get out of a slimmed down, better conditioned JCollins. Just too many questions.
However, I do think we can and will have a better season than last yr. The only Eastern teams I can see finishing ahead of us would be Orlando and maybe Miami, but only if they come together very quickly. By the trade deadline, we should know what we need and/or need to do, and by playoff time, we should be ready to kick butt and take names. I see us being a very formidable 2nd rd opponent, whether we win or lose.
August 2nd, 2010
12:13 am
Everyone keeps dissin' Marvin, well guess what folks, surprise, "the duck" is still on the Hawks roster and starting at SF, so I would suggest you armchair gm's sit back and watch him play like the rest of us.
We did, last year. 10 and 5 was the result. Armchair or not, what GM is happy with that? Hoping for better times…
August 2nd, 2010
12:14 am
ScottHastings#1 ,
Thank you, sir! Feel free to hang around and add you insight. And yes, kicking Woody to the curb is in no way a guarantee of the team becoming tougher.
August 2nd, 2010
12:23 am
Optimistic NOT Pessimistic!
Ken Strickland
I LOVE that optimism! I would live in that tent with you & cook for you!
August 2nd, 2010
12:40 am
Ken Strickland
Fantastic job on dropping 23 lbs! That is – Rich! Keep it up!
Mmmmh … Alabama? Well, you won't need to pack a tooth brush.
Hehehe …. ROF
August 2nd, 2010
12:43 am
Ken Strickland – God bless you! Hope you get to better soon.
On a basketball note – man, you sound like the last interview I read with Sund – we hope to somehow remain a top 4 seed in the East – he certainly didn't sound hopeful of us being a championship caliber team either!
We may be a piece or 2 away – but you never know – What if Wade get's hurt or they squabble in Miami and somebody demands a trade? What if Dwight pulled a quadricep (or somethng) in the playoffs? What if Bynum can't come back strong – or can't go in the playoffs – I think we have a shot, and far stranger things have happened.
That's why I complain so much about the 3m – if Sund said it – he should do it. And if we're this close – maximize the team – teams only get close so often, ask the Mavs and a host of other folks (Suns, Nuggets etc.).
Agree with so many of your points however – esp., we gotta see what we have in JoCrawford – and Sund does have us set up with the trade deadline – 3.66m Trade exception, Jamal and Mo expiring contracts – Bibby's the next year – could be an interesting year. It's not what happens in Nov – Jan nearly as much as what happens when the playoffs roll around.
August 2nd, 2010
12:47 am
I had forgotten until the other day that we were ranked the #1 team in the NBA in the ESPN power rankings for a couple of weeks in Dec. last year. We should have chemistry – we've been together for 2 1/2 years now with Bibby – longer than that with the rest of our core except Jamal.
Maybe we can roll into the playoffs with some momentum – you just never know….
August 2nd, 2010
12:49 am
Sign Kwame – but make $200,000.00 of his salary that he has to walk around with a basketball guy at least 4-6 hours a day, coaching him…..Maybe.
August 2nd, 2010
7:01 am
August 1st, 2010
6:18 pm
One word: "PERFECT"
Just stop with this freaking obsession about Howard !!!!!!!!
August 2nd, 2010
7:52 am
Wright & Wrong!
Looks like the Memphis Police is following my advice to look at the Ex-Wife.
Lorenzen's ex-wife Sherra was taken to the police dept. For questioning yesterday, in regarrds to
Lorenzen's untimely and unfortunate death.
Yesterday they searched her home. The neighbors reported a large fire burning in her backyard after his death, in a fire pit. What was so unusual was that it was such a HOT day to be setting fires.
Immediately after the death, she put up sheeþs to all the windows? (Strange).
Then on July 27th, she reported two strange men with guns on their waist underneath their jackets knocked oin her door looking for Lorenzen, 6 weeks before his death? Why didn't she get their tag number and call the police then?
Even more strange is that she was killed after leaving her home at 2am that morning.
Like I said, Sherra Wright is the key to solving this senseless murder. They were divorced in
January this year. Get that TRICK and let her FRY!!!!!!!!!!
And about the Hawks? We are gonna' have to just sit tight – watch & see!
We definitely need to do something more than we have to show the desire to win NOW!
Like SteveW said, injuries can happen to any team and there is no guarantee IF we will get this close again.
So, Carpe' Diem! (Sieze the Day!)
August 2nd, 2010
8:10 am
(Picture Perfect)
Hello there Buddy – the blog is absolutely 1st Class! (unlike the other one over there), nothing personal MC.
We-ve been averaging about 100 posts per day, so that is really good for the Fans!
What I love? It's the "Grown & Sexy" comments from the intellectuals:
Ken Strickland
Astro Joe
The Truth
Najeh DavenPoop
Macaroni Tony (he's the cheesiest!)
And others, (sorry if omitted) from the Roll Call: Thank You everyone for all the Fantastic posts to keep the fire stoked about our Hawks. We have analyzed this roster like a Rubic's Cube, and every
sound and silly trade has been made or NOT?
Bottom line is we love our Hawks! And we NEED a Winner!
PS: Alicia Keys got married this weekend (to a rapper?) and is 5 Months pregnant!
Congratulations Alicia!
August 2nd, 2010
9:39 am
The Lorenzen Wright story will likely unfold in a manner that supports the age old adgae, "fact is stranger than fiction".
So who made the bet that Jason Collins would have a contract before Shaq this summer?
Only question left is will Sund wait until camp and give someone a shot at #13 or will he grab one of the "August FAs" standing on the corner looking for a pick-up truck to carry them to an arena? If not Chris Hunter or Travis Diener, I wouldn't mind bringing in some oft-injured guys like Etan Thomas or Kenny Thomas and see if they have anything left. Maybe allow them to compete with some of the NBDL's finest for that last spot.
August 2nd, 2010
9:54 am
Steve W,
What if Wade get's hurt or they squabble in Miami and somebody demands a trade? What if Dwight pulled a quadricep (or somethng) in the playoffs? What if Bynum can't come back strong – or can't go in the playoffs .
The "what ifs" go both ways. What if Al gets hurt? What if Josh gets hurt? Hawks were the healthiest team in the NBA last year. Who knows how this year will go.
Agree with so many of your points however – esp., we gotta see what we have in JoCrawford .
Unless one of our guards gets injured, where is JoCraw going to get PT? We are stacked at SG with JJ and Jamal (and even Mo), and we have Bibby and Teague at PG.
By drafting a SG, and resigning JJ, I think we should trade Jamal for better (quality) bench depth.
August 2nd, 2010
10:21 am
A 50-win team doesn't need to give a 3rd string SG any consistent time. And if I were Drew, JC2 would be my 4th string SG, as I would play Mo Evans at that spot before sending the rookie in the game. I'm of the belief that an NBA practice is the ideal place for a rookie to learn the pro game. If he moves up the depth chart, so be it… but no need to distribute minutes like we're playing youth basketball at the YMCA.
August 2nd, 2010
10:59 am
Drmaryb ,
Thanks! All of you who come here are the ones who make this blog what it is.
O'brien and Astro Joe ,
Agreed. Hard to see where JC2 gets significant playing time.
August 2nd, 2010
11:14 am
Sekou with a very nice tribute to Lorenzen Wright.
August 2nd, 2010
11:35 am
Astro – I agree that Mo should be used at the SG spot. He's just too small for SF. That begs the question? Can Jamal & Mo handle all the SG minutes with JC2 spotting in?
Is Joe a bad option at SF? It could give more minutes to Jamal, push Marvin into a bigger role on the 2nd unit where he is a primary scorer.
August 2nd, 2010
11:52 am
Fundamentals, I think that is a dangerously small starting line-up. I suspect that Drew will keep the same top 9-10 players (with Powell replacing Joe Smith). Some may get more/less playing time but I don't envision changes to the starters (I think Bibby will start to begin the season at PG). And for all of the Powell love, dude will very likely play less than 10 minutes/game, so I wouldn't count on him being some kind of amazing addition to the team.
August 2nd, 2010
11:57 am
I can see that, depends on matchups. Hopefully LD's plans will shore up our perimeter defense and slow down the switching so much so that Horford and Smith can guard the paint. I just don't see Mo getting minutes on this team much less JC2 with Jamal and Joe at SG? Marvin obviouly needs to step it up or we need help at SF as well as C? That's where Joe comes in cause he's guarding them anyway at times.
Bibby needs to show some energy and desire for me to see him start. If he can't go, we're stuck with Teague, Jamal or Joe running the point.
August 2nd, 2010
12:08 pm
Joe – we know what we'll get – he needs support on O & D
Horford – wants help on the boards – hopefully through #13
Smoove – made strides last season, but checked out in the playoffs. Dude needs a solid year this time. Hopefully marriage will be a blessing and not a distraction.
I still say Mo needs a home at SG somewhere so he can flourish. We're not giving him that here? Trade chip?
Bibby came in awesome…and then lost the desire under Woodson? I think he can go, but does he want to buy in? If not, who wants him?
Teague is basically a rookie this year, basically getting his first shot. What can we honestly expect? What can he do? Time will tell, but a real offensive system should help direct him to how to push the rock. Woodson relegated his duties to meaningless minutes.
Jamal has to play D for him to be worth keeping? Is his trade value worth dealing him for a C or SF option which could make Marvin expendable?
Marvin has all the gifts, but we all know the story. I'm praying LD's system will be the difference.
Will ZaZa and Collins come in ready to play their role hard? They're criticial to our success.
August 2nd, 2010
12:27 pm
Thank you for the shout out!
I just wonder which player will complete our roster this year. And I hope that LD is not like Woody and you play rookies, because I think JoCrawford could help us this year.
August 2nd, 2010
12:53 pm
O'Brien – no doubt that the injury thing can go both ways – just saying – stranger things have happened.
They will be able to look at JoCrawford during practice, and spot duty during some games.
I also think they will be checking to see if he can play any PG – he did at IU (he was a PG at IU, not just occasionally) – and had some decent court vision in the summer league also. They will be able to evaluate him.
August 2nd, 2010
12:53 pm
I think Mo is a solid backup SG who can handle 18 mpg backing up JJ. And JC2 might actually earn some PT if Jamal was traded.
But if we are keeping Jamal, I think we should trade Mo for a legit backup SF.
Macaroni Tony,
There are 48 minutes at each position, so I don't see where JC2 is going to get PT. I know it's early, and matchups, hot hand, and injuries will determine PT. But this is my breakdown.
PG – Bibby (24), Teague (20), Jamal (4)
SG – JJ (32) Jamal (16)
SF – Marvin (30), Mo (14), JJ (4).
I dont see much room for JC2 this year. Once Jamal and Mo expires next offseason, then JC2 might be ready to take over Jamal's role.
August 2nd, 2010
1:00 pm
Ways we may improve this year:
1) Whoever we get at #13 will be better than RandMo I would guess. Rand looked horrid in summer league – wow!
2) Teague has a year, a summer league, and another pre-season practice under his belt. He will be better.
3) Marvin may be better
4) Horford will probably be a little better
5) Collins may be slightly better
6) Larry Drew is respected by basketball guys. With Drew as a former PG, Teague couldn't ask for a better situation. Conner and Gattison may help as well.
7) Team will have had a year to jell together – Horford, Marvin, Josh, ZaZa, and Joe seem like they've been playing together for ages! Bibby, Mo', Jamal and Teague as well, to varying degrees. We do have alot of continuity – may be valuable.
August 2nd, 2010
1:12 pm
I don't buy the notion that Tegaue is basically a rookie… not unless one believes that practicing against NBA players everyday for a year is no better than playing in college. I'm not expecting Teague to look like a future HOFer, but he should have more of the fundamentals down than a true rookie. After all, Teague spent the bulk of his rookie season under the tutelage of Larry Drew. I assume that during practice scrimmages, Drew was the one providing position-level feedback to Teague. So if there were basic PG issues (like how to throw an entry pass, how to run certain plays, who to defend a pick & roll, etc.) Teague should have had the benefit of Drew's wisdom for the past year. Given that his Wake Forest coach was fired a few months ago, I'm guessing that a year of Drew in practice was better than a year in college with a less than stellar coach. Surely, a year of practicing with and against NBA players is a better environment than playing with last year's Deacons squad.
August 2nd, 2010
1:55 pm
I just read this from an Orlando Magic blog for what its worth:
Not counting Redick's salary, the Magic are on the hook for over $85 million this season, and that's before adding the dollar-for-dollar luxury tax payment. Orlando management is indeed shelling out to put a winning team on the floor this season.
August 2nd, 2010
2:03 pm
ASTRO JOE-With MEvans in the final yr of his contract and not like to be resigned, I would make developing JoCrawford my #1 priority over playing Moe Evans anywhere. After all, Crawford appears to have more talent and a wider skill set, and he'll be here after Mo is gone.
You're suggesting the same ill advised approach Woodson took with JTeague, and you see the situation it's put us in now at PG. He's entering his 2nd yr, and we still have nothing more than speculation and wishful thinking regarding his ability to get the job done at PG.
STEVEW-Good points. Here are a few more reasons we'll be a better team:
1-our players will have the advantage of actually having a structure OFF and team approach to closing out gms. There's no way LDrew will allow any player to consistently disrupt his OFF to go play ground.
2-Based on what I know, have seen and experienced when it comes to basketball, playing a DEF that keeps out front line players near the basket will automatically improve both our OFF and DEF rebounding. That in turn will improve our overall OFF production, especially our fast break OFF.
3-We won't lose gms because our key players have been worn down from being over played, either during a gm or during the season.
4-We won't consistently lose gms due to poor DEF, or a lack of adjustments, changes or strategy.
5-Attacking the lane as a team, rather than relying heavily on shooting jump shots, will create more scoring opportunities for us at the FT line.
6-Doubling the mins of PG JTeague will increase our team speed, allow us to maintain an uptempo OFF and better perimeter DEF.
7-JPowell will add more speed, quickness, athleticism, energy and versatility to our front line.
8-LDrew won't make a habit of losing winnable gms by making obviously stupid decisions. EXAMPLE: going to a 6 man rotation in the 2nd half of a back to back against the NBA's top team(Cleveland)when we had maintainable lead.
9-We won't start the playoffs with our starters worn down from being over utilized, or our bench being totally ineffective due to under utilization.
10-When we lose during the regular season and in the playoffs, it will be because we were beaten by a better team, not because Marvin, Bibby JJ or JaCrawford were allowed to consistently stink up the place.
11-All of our players will enter this season with far more excitement, confidence and focus than they've done the last couple of yrs, and some of them will feel they have a lot to prove.
August 2nd, 2010
2:16 pm
REV IN TAMPA-I also read on HOOPSWORLD that Orlando, along with the Hawks, have decided that making only minor adjustments and basically maintaining the status quo, rather than making a lot of changes, was the best way to go. There's no way LDrew will sit idolly by and watch Bibby under produce on OFF, while at the same time, allow PG's like JNelson make him look as if he wasn't even on the court defensively.
August 2nd, 2010
2:25 pm
Why is there no Hawks coverage right now from the AJC?
August 2nd, 2010
2:28 pm
Here's a 3-way trade that helps us out this year…
Atlanta sends: Bibby, Ja Crawford, 2011 1st Rd Pick, 2011 2nd Rd Pick
Atlanta gets: Andre Miller, Joel Pryzbilla, Rudy Fernandez
Portland sends: Miller, Pryzbilla, Fernandez
Portland gets: Bibby, Crawford, Ajinca, 2011 1st Rd Pick
Dallas sends: Alexis Ajinca
Dallas gets: 2011 2nd Rd Pick
Miller / Teague
Johnson / Fernandez / Jo Crawford
Williams / Evans
Smith / Pachulia / Powell
Horford / Pryzbilla / Collins
August 2nd, 2010
2:33 pm
JoJo – I'd like Ajinca for our team to develop. Folks questioned Joel's health when I asked about him before. Is he ready to play? Miller would be a great PG option who would push and compete with Teague for minutes. Fernandez wants more than we could offer as a backup? He's not big enough to play SF. That's our niche we need? Mo is great at the backup SG role with Jo Crawford. We need a good SF to help Marvin. Also, what about the 2 2nd round picks we'd have instead of our 1st?
August 2nd, 2010
2:38 pm
You're right, that would help the Hawks. Sadly, both of the other teams have to agree to the trade too, and Rich Cho would laugh so hard that he'd need oxygen after being approached with that trade.
August 2nd, 2010
2:41 pm
I guess he's not welcome back home…lol
August 2nd, 2010
2:49 pm
Macaroni Tony
Jo Craw should get some burn, look at what Brandon Jennings did as a rook. I know he played overseas to avoid College, but in every sense of the word, he was a phenomenal rookie!
So yeah, play Jordan …
August 2nd, 2010
2:53 pm
Good points Astro Joe and Ken Strickland
Also, Nire – I do tire of some of the trade scenarios – and I've given a few myself. Most are so unrealistic – your right – both teams have to bite.
August 2nd, 2010
2:55 pm
It may be time to start our Stackhouse signing campaign again. Low cost vet that could play quality mins at the backup SF spot… Bring in Stackhouse.
August 2nd, 2010
2:56 pm
Jo Crawford will not get more than token minute – not even as much as Teague last year unless: 1) There is an injury
2) Unless he's alot better than we think
3) Unless theirs a trade or something that neccisitates it.
I do think they'll try to get him in many games – something along the lines of 5 MPG – unless there's a blowout or matchup situation somewhere.
August 2nd, 2010
3:02 pm
I'm praying Drew actually plays the kid to see what he can do. He and Teague deserve a chance. Why do all the other teams get contributions from rookies and young talent, but we give them "token" minutes. We preach youth and speed when it's convenient only to fall back on the veteran tag when it suits us. I wanna see the kids play! Let them prove what they've got in the regular season to prime them for a real contribution when the post season begins. Being a 4th seed doesn't matter if your kids aren't prepared!
August 2nd, 2010
3:14 pm
Hey, everybody, MC is back and has a new blog.
August 2nd, 2010
3:21 pm
Strickland, I wouldn't GIVE any young player anything, I would make them earn it. There are 48 minutes at the SG spot, the team is best served by having Joe and Jamal play something north of 45 of those 48 minutes. Anything less than that and we're not trying to win.
It would be a HUGE mistake to hand over the keys to the team to Teague until he earns them. He can prove himself in practice and by playing 18+ minutes each game off the bench. What's wrong with an achievement-based system for awarding playing time? If Drew is saying "guard your man or else" that sounds to me like he is expecting something in return for playing. Hopefully, he will have a similar standard for offense… with accountability when a player fails to execute. And in this league, accountability takes the form of playing time (it's not like you can change behavior by having guys pay a $100 fine for each bone-headed play).
August 2nd, 2010
3:26 pm
Fundamentals, Drew will surely give him time. But there is a difference between playing and starting/finishing games. Teague will likely get 18+ minutes every game that he is healthy. I am just suggesting that anything more than that should be based on his performance and not some random decision to donate the time to him like he is a charity case.
August 2nd, 2010
3:39 pm
MC says in his latest blog that Shaq would have to accept a bench role and vet min (or not much more) to play for the Hawks. If thats true, I guess we can kiss the idea of signing Shaq good bye. I can see him compromising on one but not both of those terms…
August 2nd, 2010
5:25 pm
Wait, MC is back? Oh boy, let me hop in my car and head over there!
*sees the average quality of commenters on MC's blog*
August 2nd, 2010
7:04 pm
ASTRO JOE-Are you saying Bibby's 9.1PPG, 3.9APG, and his inability to penetrate and play DEF automatically earns him something? Again, you're using the same misguided logic Woodson used against ALaw and JTeague just because they started out as rookies under him.
How do you expect him to earn it sitting on the bench and getting a bunch of DNP CD? And when he did get to play, the mins and opportunities were limited and sporadic. And before you bring up the EARNING IT IN PRACTICE argument, tell me, how many practices did you attend, and how do you know Teague didn't outperform Bibby during those practices?
Wouldn't it stand to reason if Bibby performed so well in practice he would have produced a lot more during the season? Evidently LDrew feels he earned the right to get more consistent mins, as well as challenge Bibby for the starting slot. This might be the same team basically, but it's certainly not the same mindset or approach.
That old narrow minded thinking and approach of judging certain players by their perceived shortcomings just because they're rookies, and ignoring obvious shortcomings of certain players just because they're veterans, IS OVER. So get with the program.
August 2nd, 2010
8:58 pm
I heard that Big Z took out an ad in the paper thanking Cleveland fans for their support. I think that is what JJ should have done after he signed his big deal.
Take out an ad in the ajc thanking fans for their support, and promising them bigger and better things for the upcoming season. At least thats what I would have had him do if I was in marketing for the ASG.
His agent did say he would help recruit players. I wonder if he put a call in to Shaq…
August 2nd, 2010
11:50 pm
I heard that Big Z took out an ad in the paper thanking Cleveland fans for their support. I think that is what JJ should have done after he signed his big deal.
Big Z did that as a farewell to Cleveland. I don't know of any examples where players put out spontaneous ads thanking fans for a team they still play for. Especially not one who clearly has never been a fan favorite – it's easy to say as a fan that he should show appreciation for the fans, but the "appreciation" thing is a 2-way street.
August 3rd, 2010
7:14 am
I think it would have been a good idea because of JJ's comments during the playoffs about not caring if fans show up or not, although its possible he didnt mean it the way some fans interpreted it.
Some Hawks fans are upset about his comments, and some Hawks fans are disappointed with his contract. If I'm not mistaken, last year we were ranked 18th in attendance, and 22nd in payroll. This year, we will be closer to top 10 payroll, but it is basically the same team as last year.
So the ASG is hoping that there will be more wins (I dont think we will win more than 53), and that more fans will come out and watch the same team. JJ placing an ad might have helped. Or he could have done a press conference.
Speaking of which, LeBron is looking like a copycat. 2 days after Big Z places an ad thanking Cleveland, LeBrob places a similar ad in the Akron paper (thanking Akron).
August 3rd, 2010
8:11 am
Now that Truth-Serum is banned from MC's blog, does he come here? Could a cage match be impending. Big Ray in one corner—-TS the other. My money's on Blu-Ray!
The doldrums of Dog Days ensues. Nothing to talk about so let's bash Truth-Serum. We all know he's insane, but if he behaves, I have no problem with his views. None of us know it all; but all of us have the responsibility to treat others as we would like to be treated. Thus, unless he learns how to behave, I'm with MC. It's about respect. If TS wants to play by the rules, he can say what he wants. It's like Rod from CP. I TOTALLY disagree with his constant bashing of Marvin. But, he does NOT attack other posters when they disagree with him. He's civil. So, agree or disagree, as long as a poster is civil….they're cool with me.
Big Ray keeps it real here. I really appreciate that. Good job, BIG GUY!
August 3rd, 2010
8:21 am
As I said, it's probably a 2-way street from JJ's perspective. The fans don't seem to show much appreciation for him, so why should he show appreciation for the fans?
August 3rd, 2010
9:59 am
That's true. But the ASG needs the fans more. So while I understand JJ's perspective, I think the ASG needs to do a better job of marketing their players, especially their $124 million star.
August 3rd, 2010
10:47 am
ASG should have paid the add on behalf of JJ, without even consulting him…
That's marketing!!!
August 3rd, 2010
10:57 am
Strickland, tell me, is there a middle ground between starting and getting no playing time? A simple yes/no question… because when I suggest playing Teague off the bench, you seem to jump to accusing me of advocating that Teague not play. So the question is fairly simple, is starting the one and only way to get playing time (in your opinion)?
August 3rd, 2010
11:04 am
That's why you don't see Joe doing alot of endorsements and the ones he have done, he doesn't say much. Dude doesn't have the most marketable personality…
August 3rd, 2010
11:17 am
The Hawks PR Director should have contacted Joe's agent (or vice-versa) and they should have developed a marketing/media campaign together. Both parties should know Joe well enough to know that he doesn't think in that manner and that he has some fences to fix in this city. The fact that Dwight Howard gave a more comprehensive interview than the recipient of the franchise's highest contract is shameful. But again, I don't blame Joe because he is not the media-hungry, I-want-live-in-a-fishbowl type of person. And that is why those people in the offices of his agency and his team need to take an extra step (like Vava suggestss, buy the F'ing ad) on Joe's behalf.
The Hawks seem to always do "just enough" as opposed to taking the next step. They should have at least one person from the Hawks do a round of radio, TV and newspaper interviews every month during the off-season just to whet the appetite of potential ticket buyers. In July, they could have had Pendergraft discuss the process for draft night and why fans should be excited about JoCrawford. In August, bring in Joe to discuss his free agency. In September, trot out Drew to discuss the impending vet's camp and how things will be different under his leadership. In October, have Horford (or Josh or Marvin) discuss the coming season. I'm talking about 2-3 heavy media days a month spread out so no one gets burned. Basic marketing tactics to stay relevant in a town with a slew of disposable income options. And how much of an investment would that be? Other than reimbursing gas mileage, like virtually nothing.
August 3rd, 2010
11:25 am
And Joe needs to slap his agent upside his head for the "recruiting" comment. The ASG only had the MLE to spend, so any "recruitment" would be for a middling player. If the agent walked away from the negotiating table believing the ASG would use the MLE, then the agent was a fool.
Fans will hold it against Joe that he didn't deliver a recruited player, but the reality is that after Joe signed, the only contracts handed out by the Hawks were minimum salary deals. Who was Joe supposed to recruit to take the minimum? Patrick O'Bryant?
August 3rd, 2010
11:50 am
It's like Rod from CP. I TOTALLY disagree with his constant bashing of Marvin. But, he does NOT attack other posters when they disagree with him. He's civil. So, agree or disagree, as long as a poster is civil….they're cool with me.
I agree, but I personally had no problem with TS, but that's me. You say you totally disagree with my bashing of Marvin. Please tell me one thing that I have said about him that is not true. If it's true, is it really bashing, or is it telling the truth.
August 3rd, 2010
11:58 am
And if the ASG is depending on the product on the floor to attract more fans, I think they will be disappointed. Although Woody's ways had its fault, we were one of the best home teams the last 2 years, and fans still were not coming out the way the ASG wants them to.
So they need to find a way to make fans feel closer to the players, especially their $124 million star. But ASG and marketing have not done enough IMO.
August 3rd, 2010
1:01 pm
Steve W,
From MC's blog.
"without getting into the details of my conversations with sources, i would say there was definitely a plan in the organization that they could use the $3 mil to offset the luxury tax paid (and tax distribution lost) by signing a vet player. somewhere along the way that plan changed." MC .
August 3rd, 2010
1:08 pm
If the beat writer says it like that, it's good enough for me. I can't imagine what changed, except maybe season ticket sales being lower than expected. After all, they maxed out JJ on Day 1 of free agency, so they obviously were planning to spend that much on him.
August 3rd, 2010
1:49 pm
nire, I sincerely hope they were not basing their decison on ticket sales given that they haven't executed a plan to drive ticket sales since the end of the Orlando series. Maybe they thought they had an "all but the signature on the line" deal with someone like Jermaine O'Neal and that went "poof" on them. It would line-up with JJ's agent suggesting that he would do some recruiting (they share the same agent) and the front office's belief that the cash would be better to have than a player at #31.
Funny, we want our head coach to be able to "make adjustments" during game situations. That quality would also be nice in a GM.
August 3rd, 2010
2:08 pm
My guess would be the direction change once the Salary Cap figures were release. At that time they saw a way to stay on the luxury cap and continue to receive tax disbursements. If the tax disbursements are similar to baseball were the pot is divided amongst the non-luxury teams, than those checks probably average at least 5mil… Follow the Money.
August 3rd, 2010
2:33 pm
I am in a similar camp like AJ. Maybe they had a certain guy they wanted, but either his price tag was too high (Shaq, Drew Gooden for example), or he decided to go somewhere else (JO or Big Z for example).
However, conspiracy theory; What if they said those things just to help convince JJ to stay on board?
After all, Rick said resigning JJ was just the beginning, and they would spend to improve the team. I'm sure that's what JJ wanted to hear, that they plan on improving the team (although the money and years are very important too).
August 3rd, 2010
2:34 pm
Apples and oranges don't even begin to cover the differences between a head coach and a GM, certainly in the way you are describing it. The analogy makes sense to the extent that just as coaches must do their best with the roster given to them, GMs must put together the best team with the budget given to them. Within that framework, each must make adjustments. But the analogy basically ends there. There is more than a small difference between tactics and strategy. Adjustments to strategy are much, Much, MUCH, MUCH harder to implement on the fly than adjustments in tactics because strategies are much longer-term in scope. Woody actually had a decent grasp of strategy on the defensive end, I think. But he sucked at tactics because he lacked the capacity to make tactical adjustments when the strategy isn't working.
With the complicated salary cap and luxury tax rules, the reality that most players play under multi-year contracts, and the fact that all teams work within a budget based on projected revenues, GMs have much less leeway when it comes to making adjustments. Moreover, GMs can't simply push a button and get the players they want like on NBA2k (or like coaches can do when they make substitutions in games). Players have to want to play for the GM's team. The result is that the closest you see GMs coming to making on-the-fly adjustments is when GMs scour the waiver wire after the trade deadline to pick up pieces for the stretch run. Before that, the GMs have to take a longer view of the team's progress during the coming years.
In this case, I don't know what you expected Sund to do. If ASG told him "it looks like we won't be able to afford to pay the luxury tax this year; you can spend $70M on the payroll and not a penny more"…well what "adjustments" do you expect him to make? He can't magically make extra money appear, nor can he force players to sign with the Hawks at a discount. Even if he could, he has to take into account more than simply filling players on the roster. He has to make judgment calls as to what players would mesh will the other players already on the roster.
As for this:
I sincerely hope they were not basing their decison on ticket sales given that they haven't executed a plan to drive ticket sales since the end of the Orlando series.
I was in Atlanta for all of 3 days during the early summer and saw billboards and a TV commercial advertising Hawks season tickets. Now maybe those are left over from a prior ad campaign (doubtful in the case of the TV commercial), but in any case I don't see how anyone on the outside can state as fact that "they haven't executed a plan." They may well have executed a plan, but you haven't come across it or have selectively ignored it (as you are apt to do when something doesn't mesh with your preconceived notions). In any case, odd statement to make since I saw evidence of an ad campaign in just a couple days of being around town.
August 3rd, 2010
2:52 pm
Also, assuming the Hawks are anything like most pro sports teams, the team's annual revenue comes mainly from sponsorships and corporate/luxury box sales, neither of which hinge on an ad campaign. The Sixers have TERRIBLE general ad campaigns but the team always seems to have decent value estimates in Forbers because every stuffy law firm in Philly and financial services company in Wilmington buys premium tickets.
August 3rd, 2010
3:20 pm
It looks like the ASG will probably make a move for a Big by the trade deadline to assess what we already have under new management versus what the team need.
Maybe, Zsa Zsa will play a better defined role and we will see more of him on the court with Al and Josh.
And, less of Marvin in that starting role he has yet to:
August 3rd, 2010
3:32 pm
Georgia Peach!
Zsa Zsa scored 28 points and snagged 8 offensive boards as Georgia defeated Poland.
He scored against Gortat who posted 10 points and 3 boards in that lop-sided defeat.
(Something like 89 – 64/74?) Was the game total.
Here's my point: Zsa Zsa said he loves playing for his Country: The Republic of Georgia.
Because, there he is the team Captain and he is the Man!
Wow! Maybe, if Drew can put Zsa in better schemes and make him a focal point at center with Al and Josh on the floor, that would be one heck-uv-a BIG front line!
Just maybe, Zsa Zsa can be the Dark Horse in Georgia. How ironic would it be IF what we
were looking for was right here all the time! I say look in our own backyard before looking over the proverbial fence for greener grass.
Just Maybe?
August 3rd, 2010
3:41 pm
I was just about to post that, drmaryb:
Zaza: 26 pts, 8 rebs, and 2 assists in 27 minutes
Gortat: 10 pts, 3 rebs, and 1 assist in 28 minutes
Georgia (or Sakartvelo, as they call it in Tbilisi) routed Poland 84-65. The Polish Hammer got nailed.
I watched part of the game. Gortat looked as clueless about what to do against decent players in Europe as he does here in the States. I've always said that no one would even know Gortat's name if he weren't backing up a superstar. One game doesn't prove that, of course, but it's particularly satisfying to see Zaza crush him in what was a pretty significant game – one more win basically secures Georgia a place in Eurobasket 2011, which is the Olympic qualifying tournament.
Well done, Z!
August 3rd, 2010
5:50 pm
nire, of course it is harder to build a roster than to win a game. The point is that every competent person must have a contingency plan when things fail/change. Retaining 9 of the top 10 players feels very much like a front office that failed to make an adjustment. There was a plan to adjust the roster, the plan changed, so we stay the same.
I'm sorry if you took my "no marketing plan" literally. I should have suggested a marketing plan that may improve ticket sales (if that was a prerequisite to move forward with a roster upgrade). If a business owner is losing X in 2009 and trots out the same plan in 2010, I would characterize that as not executing a business plan (that improves the business situation). I guess I left out the obvious notion that their business plan does not appear much different than the previous one that left the team lacking in attendance and revenue. If a billboard of Josh, Al and Joe didn't ring the phones, why trot out a comparable billboard (but maybe this time wearing the red uniforms and not the white ones).
It all feels like sameness to me. Same core, same revenue projection, same lack of adjustments. Sameness.
The sad thing is that my Jamal Crawford trade rant was partly based on having 2 years of essentially the same roster because we would be "locked in" without the expiring contracts of Acie and Speedy. 13 months later…
August 3rd, 2010
5:54 pm
Zaza plays fairly well for the hawks when he is given enough minutes and used in the right situation.
MC said woody did not like playing al and zaza together, but LD is more comfortable with them together. So I think Zaza has a better year this year.
August 3rd, 2010
6:47 pm
It all feels like sameness to me. Same core, same revenue projection, same lack of adjustments. Sameness.
You're right. I mean, they even have the same coach. Wait, what? They have a new coach? You mean that the person in charge of offensive and defensive strategies, in-game tactics, substitution patterns, and player development is different than last year? Nah, that couldn't POSSIBLY be important.
I don't know if you noticed, but changing coaches can have a drastic effect on a team's fortunes. It's telling that you completely discount the possibility that a coaching change could bring about more significant changes than signing a free agent or making a trade. To you, Woody wasn't the problem, so replacing him is a non-factor. Why am I not surprised?
And thanks for bringing up Crawford. You wanted us to trade for a big man instead of Crawford, if memory serves. We traded for the reigning Sixth Man of the Year, Al became an All-Star, and Josh should have been an All-Star. What trade would you have made that could have worked out better? Because trading for a big man would either mean either 1) moving at least one of our All-Star caliber big men out of position; or 2) bringing the acquiree off the bench…and #2 would be kind of a funny thing to prefer considering that we got the BEST BENCH PLAYER IN THE NBA.
August 3rd, 2010
7:00 pm
Rod in CP ,
Should we start with how many times you claim Marvin falls down in a game? I can dig through the archives….
August 3rd, 2010
8:40 pm
Stop hating. Show a bit of appreciation:
August 3rd, 2010
9:16 pm
nire, and having the SMOY resulted in what improvement in the post-season? Remind me.
And then, Mr. Historian, remind of the last time an NBA team cut strings with their head coach during the off-season and hired his assistant. Oh, and then went on to unprecedented success as a franchise. I'm sure that there are at least a half-dozen examples of such a thing happening, after all, it makes perfect sense to keep a head coach for 82 games only to determine that a guy on the bench was the single best coaching candidate available after having the off-season to make that determination. You may find some in-season interim coaches who proved themselves when forced into service…. but I doubt that you will find many examples of what the Hawks just did…. right down to retain several members from the previous staff.
You're right, I should have ALL the confidence in the world in the off-season changes made.
August 3rd, 2010
9:32 pm
One example I can think of is when Phil Jackson took over for Doug Collins. Although he did have Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen on the team…
To me, ASG is taking a big gamble, because they are putting all their eggs in the basket of a lifetime assistant HC. I like Drew, and I hope he succeeds, but it will be interesting to see what happens if we struggle out the gate.
August 3rd, 2010
9:43 pm
nire, i still think your answer to what happened to how the askg approaches things is as i predicted; once the heat made their move the askg would fold like a 2 dollar chair. their reach turned to being top four, not championship quality. the top four comment is quoted from sund. they decided to not compete for the top rung. no, i was not in a meeting but sometimes you just have to look and infer intention as to why.
i know you have been pleased with the way they handled their business and that is fine if one only looks to solvency granted a necssary evil. as a fan, i have not been impressed at how it has been done for the last six years and i cant even throw out the litany of offenses you did. funny, how the number two team can risk getting better with a shaq you throw huge barbs at and guys like us really needing it, looking up literally, cant find a way to truly get bigger or even have that in our arsenal.
josh powell aint the answer, nor is collins. so, we are left with three players and all undersized for what they have to do against the teams that are big. yes even though "just a player" as you ridicule him, horford got it right and is what almost everybody else sees and knows about the hawks. it just doesnt make sense for you to disagree with him either "because basketball players arent gm's". dont you think he might be a little closer to the game and hence needs of the team that you are?
overall, it may be good basketball we come to see, very entertaining and even capable of winning fifty games. however, no matter what, in the post season as built it is ready to fold like a ten dollar tent in a five mile an hour breeze. personally, i am not ready to buy into it because the x factor is really how good a coach LD is. we have no clue. it could be a travesty or a home run but no one, not you, ken, o'b, big ray, astro … could have an idea. i hope that woody really suppressed the talent of marvin, zaza and collins and LD sees it right because that is where this team is going to have to dip, those three guys, to get better, really better and become impact players on a consistent basis so this team can compete to be better and aim higher than rick sund wants it to be..
August 3rd, 2010
10:31 pm
And then, Mr. Historian, remind of the last time an NBA team cut strings with their head coach during the off-season and hired his assistant. Oh, and then went on to unprecedented success as a franchise.
The last time? I don't know. But you want an example? How about Phil Jackson, dumbass.
August 3rd, 2010
10:54 pm
Huh. I guess it was a dream when our starting center made the All-Star team last year. Weird. Oh wait, what? It wasn't a dream? Our starting center was deemed better than every other center in the East except Dwight Howard? Oh, nevermind.
The same reports that say Shaq is willing to sign for peanuts to sit on the bench in Boston also said that he was demanding $8M and a starting spot from the Hawks. I'll just quote CrawfultoCrawsome from Hawksquawk:
Right, its the ASG's fault that Shaq wants nearly 10 mil to play in Atlanta but is just fine and dandy taking less than 2 mil to play in Boston. Yea I think I'm standing with my original comment about him. It's the ASG's fault that they weren't willingly gutting their roster and investing their funds at Shaq's behest in a guy who didn't want to be here beyond collecting a paycheck. That's the type of person you want to rest your hopes in and make plenty of concessions for at the expense of our other players just to say you got him.
For Atlanta his camp said:
More than the MLE
Starting spot
Ample playing time.
For Boston:
Vet Min
Bench role
whatever you see fit.
Till this moment we can still offer a mil to 2 mil more, do you think he'd be interested? You think we sign JaCo without exhausting that the POS rather play elsewhere for less than we are offering or are you so deadset in your ignorance that you think Collins was numero uno on our offseason acquisition list? If anything the JaCo signing makes even more sense now seeing as we'd need him to check Shaq after the ASG was already well aware that he spurned us.
But go ahead and rewrite history. How were we going to meet Shaq's demands? By moving to Josh to SF or the bench? By replacing Horford with a guy who HORFORD JUST BEAT OUT FOR THE ALL-STAR TEAM? How do we get Shaq the $8M that he was seeking? The MLE is way below that, so we couldn't just sign him outright. Should we sign-and-trade Marvin without getting someone who has shown some capacity to play SF? If not Marvin, then who would we trade that the Cavs would be interested in? Tell me, doc, what did you want them to do?
Oh, and nevermind that signing Shaq would have brought ASG more in ticket sales, merchandising, and sponsorships than his salary would cost, so anyone with half a brain who thought about it for half a second would realize that the team probably wasn't worried about how much Shaq would cost in a monetary sense.
You and AJ will undoubtedly keep being intellectually lazy and spewing the same "ASG sucks" bullsh!t that you have been for years. The "intellectually lazy" comes from ignoring everything that happens that's inconvenient to your arguments, which is what both of you do. But whenever you see a quote that provides a modicum of support for your intellectually lazy position, well you sure remember those. The fact that the Hawks have already increased their payroll in a year where most teams have significantly cut payroll? Who cares! The trades in the past 2 years for Bibby and Crawford? Pfshaw! Giving out a max contract to a player who is more on the level of Rashard Lewis than LeBron James? Irrelevant, I say!
Let me know when you've stopped living in 2006.
August 3rd, 2010
11:01 pm
I told my Hawks ticket rep 3 weeks ago, no Shaq, no ticket plan. You and Manny T told me to be patient. Well, I still have my ticket monies and it's August… I may skip the pretzels this year and attend more games at Time Warner Arena (Bobcats)….
August 3rd, 2010
11:04 pm
There is a certain logic to the doc and AJ rantings, though. What's the old saying that people don't like what they don't understand? Y'all probably have never negotiated a contract or studied techniques for balancing the budget of a company, much less one with limited liability and external constraints like the ASG operates under. You don't understand it, so it's easy for you to place the blame there. Far better to be arrogant than to say "Gee, I don't really know what these guys do or the context in which they must work, so maybe I shouldn't be so quick to blame them."
What's the old saying about walking a mile in someone's shoes before criticizing them? Try keeping some modicum of that in mind before you bash them. It's a good rule to live by in life, and it also helps you avoid the intellectually lazy trap of seeing everything through a lens of pre-conceived notions rather than looking at everything objectively and assessing what you don't know before opening your mouth to criticize.
August 3rd, 2010
11:47 pm
Alright, I've calmed down. Astro – I agree that the exact sequence of assistant-coach-replacing-head-coach-in-offseason does not happen often. Honestly, I can't think of many head coaches at all who've reached the top job by that route. The only successful ones that come to mind are Phil Jackson and Alvin Gentry. Gentry was not a first-time head coach, so his situation was a bit different, but he nonetheless is an example of a front office coming to the (late) realization that the best guy for the head job might have been under their noses all along – and been right, IMHO. Successful midseason promotions are a bit more common – Mike D'Antoni in Phoenix and Nate McMillan in Seattle are the most recent success stories that comes to mind.
I think the reason that you don't see too many assistants get promoted in the offseason to head coach is that most good assistants are noticed and tapped for head coaching jobs on other teams rather than their current team. I don't know the exact percentage, but most of the NBA head coaches that come to mind for me are guys who started off as an assistant somewhere. I don't think that was likely to happen under Woody because, from the way it sounds, it doesn't sound like Woody let Drew do much in the way of implementing his ideas for the team (if he did, one would assume these new offensive schemes would have been attempted long ago).
In any case, the point is that most successful head coaches were assistants right up until they were given their first crack at the top job. I honestly don't know what the percentages are, but I would guess that internal offseason promotions have a good success rate as compared to hiring other teams' assistants and hiring retreads.
August 9th, 2010
11:05 pm
Why not add Tracy McGrady, He bring a wing player to the lineup, And also bench scoring, Backing Johnson And Williams.
August 12th, 2010
2:45 pm
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