text:
JM: Now, Leland told me that that land that the sawmill was on was originally Nikolaus land and he sold it to . . .?
VR: That's exactly. His dad . . .
SR: I thought some of that was Lewis'.
VR: Down at the old Safeway, that was Lewis' and then the sawmill was Leland's family. My dad bought it from them and that was 1946 or '47, sometime in there, the nearest I can remember. Because my dad had built the mill down at Safeway, the planing mill, in 1946. So it was right at '47 or something like this when he bought it off Leland's dad.
JM: What did you produce out of that mill?
VR: We produced mining timbers.
JM: Okay, you're still doing timbers.
VR: Uh huh, we sent a lot of mining timbers to New Mexico back into the Uranium mines.
SR: And a lot of lumber too.
VR: And a lot of lumber. We sent lumber all over the Valley and Tucson and years ago we sent a lot out on rail. You know, going back East.
JM: The timber was mostly just Ponderosa pine?
VR: Ponderosa pine and Douglas fur, spruce.
JM: And the logging trucks would haul it in . . .
VR: Uh huh
JM: and then haul it out again.
VR: Logging trucks hauled it in and the lumber trucks would haul it out.
JM: Did you ever connect with Hal Butler and his working.
VR: Hal was working for the Indians down in Whiteriver, but Hal worked for my dad for quite a while.
JM: Okay, because he's about your age or a little older than you.
VR: I think Hal is just a little older. He was in World War II, Hal was. And he was working for my dad somewhat time around there.
JM: I was thinking that was his first job when he came out.
VR: Yeah, it was one of his first jobs. He started hauling lumber for my dad, you know, bought his own truck, so he done that for . . .
JM: Started freighting
VR: Yeah, he done that quite a few years, and then he went to Whiteriver for the Tribe.
JM: But you had Apaches and Navajos working here then.
VR: Uh huh
JM: Because of their timber interests were they here?
VR: Down there, see we used to get most of our timber off the Reservation. We'd get a lot of timber down around Forestdale and you know, all over down there. They required us to work 70% of their people, and we did at least that many. In fact is they were our main source of help back then, you know. They done a good job and we had them working for us 25 to 30 years, a lot of them. Stayed right there, you know, until we shut down.
JM: How many people did you have working for you?
VR: Logging and all, around 50 people.
JM: Fifty?
VR: Yeah
JM: Now you had loggers who were always in the woods, and then there were sawmillers who were only in the sawmills.
VR: Yeah, yeah
SR: And truckers that shipped it out.
VR: Yeah, truckers
SR: Drivers shipped it out
JM: Did you own the trucks, or did they?
VR: No, we owned the trucks.
JM: So then you had something that was marketing this wood.
VR: Yeah, we had a long standing with a lot of people, you know, like in Albuquerque and around the country that would buy our lumber. You know we always had a home for it.
JM: Did you connect any with McNary when it was going?
VR: We used to, years ago, we sold lumber to McNary. They sent so much out on rail and then it was, you know, it worked out pretty good for us back sometimes when the lumber business was real slow, why they bought a lot of lumber from us. And also, a lot of our waste, like the bark and stuff, because they ran their power plants with that. You know, sawdust and bark, and we hauled that to them. Same way was when the paper mill went in, we'd make wood chips and send the wood chips down there. At that time Southwest owned it, you know, the whole thing.
JM: So what happened to the wood industry? What happened here?
VR: Well, it just got ridiculous, what happened to it.
SR: Mostly, the owl
VR: It just burnt you, little of deal, yeah they'd take away a bunch of it for the spotted owl, spotted owl or goshawk or something. About the time they went to setting it aside, and then they started marking all the little timber that, you know. We wanted to quit. We had a big sawmill. You know, to cut big logs. Well, we never knew what was going to happen from day to day, so we didn't want to be investing back then in small log help, you know, to cut. So we just seen our way out of it and seen a way to keep our property, so we just forgot it. You know, got out of it.
JM: So about when was that, that it happened?
SR: May of '91
JM: A lot longer than McNary then.
VR: Well, no, McNary, they moved to Eager, but then they changed hands you know. They were selling. We were just a small family business. But they changed or sold out, or whatever. I don't know just what it was. But, yeah, we stayed for a long time. We toughed it out, us and Porters out there. We just toughed it out for a long time to where, you know, we just couldn't keep our people working. It was either that or just give it all up and probably wind up losing all our property too. So we sold it.
SR: Timber was very had to get ahold of back then.
JM: Squeezed us out
SR: Well, see we bought from the government and not selling anymore
JM: So who was the pressure? Was it the environmentalists or was that the Forest Service, or?
VR: It was a combination. It was environmentalists and mainly, the environmentalists. And then the Forest Service, they do what the public wants, you know. It seemed like the public got where they were leaning toward shutting everything down anyway, so that's just the way it went. And then, being located right here in town with a sawmill wasn't really too practical anymore either. So it was just a matter of time.
JM: It was like the town was growing around you.
VR: Yeah, that's right!
JM: There was another sawmill down the creek a ways.
VR: Uh, down this way? That was uh, that started out as a Chlarson mill, and then my cousin, Bruce, bought that mill. And he run that mill for quite a while.
JM: How was that different from yours? The mill itself, was it doing the same stuff?
VR: Yeah, doing the same kind of stuff.
JM: Ties?
VR: Well, I don't know just what he done. He did a lot of lumber because they owned a lumberyard. He had a lumberyard too, right here in town. See, he mainly was a retailer and we were wholesalers.
JM: I see. And then there was another one I remember, down back behind where Kmart is.
VR: That was a little old molding plant out there that belonged to Hugh Whipple.
JM: Hugh
VR: Uh huh, yeah he run that for a long time.
JM: Now that was molding, like around windows. That kind of molding?
VR: Yeah, uh.
JM: Was that a retail too? Or was that wholesale?
VR: I think he just wholesaled it out, hauled it to different stores maybe. I don't know.
JM: Were there any others around?
VR: Yeah, my brother-in-law, he had a molding plant down by our planing mill.
JM: What was his name?
VR: Clifford Burrows
JM: Burrows?
VR: Uh huh, he worked for Southwest. He learned the molding business there, working for Southwest in McNary. And then he put in that little molding plant down here. And then, later moved to Phoenix, put him in a molding mill in Phoenix.
JM: So you two got married, and how many kids did you have?
VR: Four
SR: Two boys and two girls
JM: What are their names?
SR: There's Rick and Jerry Fay, Kathy and Edwin Lee
JM: Do they live around here?
SR: All of them
JM: All of them here! That's good, so you've got grandkids?
SR: Oh yeah
VR: We've got a flock of grandkids and great-grandkids.
JM: Oh my! You're family has been here, wow, you're starting your third century! (laughter) Goodness!
VR: Yep
JM: So what are they doing now that the family business is?
VR: They're just working around different places. They all went, you know, went to work. After we shut down, well most of them, there's three of them worked at the mill. We have a daughter that worked there and our two sons worked there. And the smart one, she taught school, so.
JM: Here in Show Low?
SR: She taught here until two years ago, and then she went to Whiteriver. Kathy was a teacher in the first grade, first and second, mostly first.
JM: That's a commute.
SR: Yeah, but it was her choice. She's right at the end it was a benefit to her to go down there.
JM: Well, we don't have the weather like we used to have.
VR: Boy, that is a fact.
SR: You were asking about this home down, uh Charlie Reidhead's that he built that was downtown on the Deuce. Evidently it was built around 1914, a lot of years ago.
JM: Yes, a long time ago. I'd like to see that, something happen with that place.
VR: Yeah, I would too, I.
SR: Yeah, because back then it was really quite spectacular with the yard and everything.
JM: It's almost a hundred years old.
SR: This what we've got here is quite a book. Val's sister made it.
VR: We went to uh, back where we were in Scotland. She made a trip to Scotland and then she wrote that book.
JM: So your family is from Scotland? You're a Scott?
VR: Uh huh
JM: Did your family first come from Scotland to go to Salt Lake City?
VR: No, where was it, Baltimore, Maryland or somewhere North.
SR: Somewhere back east
VR: Somewhere back east, I'd have to look it up.
SR: It's all in here. I don't remember
VR: I remember reading it.
JM: I wonder how long logging was in your family. People usually bring their trade with them.
VR: Well, they built Scotch over there, so some of them brought the trade with them. They made corn whiskey. (laughter) They tried to bring it with them.
JM: Yeah, tried their best.
SR: What did your grandpa do when he come here? Oscar, John Oscar
VR: I think rancher is what he
JM: Cattle ranching
VR: Cattle ranching, cattle and horses
JM: A lot of these horses were wild. They were probably catching the wild horses and taming them? Do you think?
VR: No, I don't think so. I think they just, oh they probably did some, but I think they just started out small and just built up a herd, you know. I remember my dad talking about they traded with the Apaches, you know, sell horses and break horses for them and different things like that.
JM: I've heard stories. I did Esther Lee not long ago. She was talking about the McNeil family when they first came here, how she said, her father would chase a horse all day just to ride it for 15 minutes. (laughter)
VR: Yeah, I think I'd do that too when I was a kid.
JM: Sounds wild to me! (laughter)
VR: They just didn't want to be rode.
JM: You retired the whole shebang in '91. Did you just retire at that point, or did you do something else?
VR: Yeah, more or less, pretty much through you know. Pretty hard to do anything else, so we just packed it all up.
JM: When you focus so long on just one thing like that, it's hard to see yourself doing something else.
VR: Oh yeah
SR: You really don't know anything else.
VR: No, that's all I knew. I didn't learn anything, you know, only sawmilling and logging was the only stuff I knew. About the time we ran out there wasn't much going on, so there was no need for me going out looking for a job doing that, so.
JM: Yes, and you had lived here already? In your house? You'd already been here?
SR: We'd been here since '72 in this.
VR: Yeah, we started building it in '70 and it took us two years to build it. We moved in in '72, wasn't it? Right here.
SR: Kind of like it here. We're in town but we 're not.
JM: Quiet here
SR: We don't have neighbors. Of course we're going to.
JM: Do you own this property over here?
SR: No, we did at one time.
JM: I wish you'd have kept it.
SR: In fact, Val's brother went and bought it from the McNeil family. My great-great-grandmother lived up here on this corner.
JM: And what was her name?
SR: Mary McNeil
JM: Mary Ann?
SR: Mary Ann McNeil
JM: So you're related to Esther Lee. That was her grandmother.
SR: Yeah, and she was my grandmother too.
JM: Oh! So you're cousins!
SR: Bought it from Mary Ann McNeil, her daughter, they homesteaded it.
JM: Was this Piney Ranch? What they called Piney Ranch?
SR: I never heard it called that. There's another one out across the highway where Torreon is that the McNeils owned also.
VR: I think Ben McNeil owned that out there.
SR: Yeah, he owned that out there.
JM: Raymond Lee was telling me that down where the church is was Piney Ranch, so that could be that it stretched this far. I don't know how.
VR: Yeah, it could have been. The homestead could have went that far, yeah.
SR: But I know that this homestead here was 40 acres. Mary Ann bought it when she came back from Mexico.
JM: She bought it herself.
SR: Uh huh. In fact, Dad had quite a few of the McNeils that's wanted to know where the home was that's come by here. And the home's all gone now. Everything is all gone, but it was up in the corner of the 40 acres around here. The 40 acres have been sold off to other people, and we have some down the front here and Val's brother down to Central and to the trailer court down Whipple. But this back here, we have no idea what's going to happen to it.
JM: David Foil told me that that used to be Forest Service land right out here.
SR: In the pines
JM: Behind the meadow here?
SR: Out that way
JM: Where Sierra Pines is?
VR: Yeah, that was Forest Service. Yep
JM: Amazing, so close
VR: Yeah, we logged some logs off that. Then through a land trade, you know, they traded. Somebody traded for it. I don't know, two or three different times I think it has been sold or traded.
JM: These log houses that are being built. Where are those logs coming from?
VR: A place over in Nutrioso that makes log house logs, pretty big outfit over there. Then a lot of these I think come from Colorado.
JM: Oh, do the Reidheads still have a sawmill out there at Nutrioso?
VR: My cousin. See, my brother wound up with that mill, and then his boys, my nephew, he still owns the sawmill there.
JM: So it's still running?
VR: Well, it's pretty well shut down. He put in a small log mill down at Eager. The last I heard he'd been running it. That's about it I think.
JM: Probably just custom things at this point.
VR: Yeah, probably, yeah probably now. I kind of lost track anymore what they're doing.
JM: So now after this Rodeo-Chedeski fire, do you predict that they're going to open up the clearing of the forests? Cleaning the forests up? Or any way timber will be revived through that?
VR: No, they're just still plant, you know, seedlings. You're talking a hundred years before it grows up any.
SR: This timber here takes a long time to grow.
JM: And the burned stuff that's still standing . . .
VR: No, it's ruined. It was ruined. Oh, they logged some of it, but they should have really went in there and logged it out. You know, salvaged it. They just as soon put it on the ground. That's environmentalists again. They'd just as soon it fell on the ground and ruined, you know, instead of somebody getting something out of it.
JM: And with the price of fuel now, you would think there would be a revival of wood products.
VR: Probably this pellet mill out here is probably about, you know, that's what we've got a pellet stove here. We burn pellets. It's a lot cleaner and . .
SR: Cleaner and more practical than wood
VR: than wood
JM: And a woman can fill. No splitting kindling wood anymore.
VR: No, we done that for a long time. We have an old fireplace there and we liked to froze to death from.
SR: They're not for warmth.
VR: They're not practical.
JM: Just getting even with you.
VR: Yeah!
JM: So we still have the pellet place, and then the paper mill is, sounds like they're cutting back or something.
VR: Yeah, that's what I heard. It was cutting back. Of course, they quit the chips a long time ago. They just recycle, you know.
JM: Paper?
VR: Paper. I guess pellets is the big thing around here as far as wood, you know, still coming in off the forest, around this part. They send a lot of small logs out for different things. I don't know what they are. They might make probably some log homes, you know.
JM: So what have you been doing with yourselves since you retired?
VR: Well, mainly nothing.
JM: Watch TV?
VR: No, we don't like TV either. There's just really not a whole lot to do around this place. We don't need a whole lot to do either, now.
JM: With a family the size you've got, probably that keeps you with something going all the time.
VR: Oh yeah, we've got grandkids, kids and grandkids and great-grandkids coming by. Keeps it pretty busy.
SR: They come by for a little while almost every week. Some of them do. We've got a lot of grandkids living around.
JM: It looks like somebody coming now. Well, can you think of something else I need to record?
VR: Oh, not that I can think of. I pretty well covered about everything. I mean as far as the lumber, you know, and my family.
JM: The sawmills and where they were and everything. Yep, this is perfect timing. Somebody is showing up. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate this.
VR: Well I appreciate you calling.
JM: I wanted to really record this because so many people don't remember those sawmills. Already we're getting people that don't know these sawmills.
VR: Well, I'm sure.
End of recording
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text:
Buffoon Block All trad climbing1 route in crag
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Access issues inherited from Victoria Range
The Victoria Range was badly burnt in the fires of February 2013 but all areas are now open to climbing (Feb 2014). However there are access changes to the cliffs in the Eureka area.
Here's an update from Parks Victoria:
Grampians National Park Update – 14 February 2014 (Rock climbing and Bouldering)
The Northern Grampians Fire severely burnt the natural environment and much of the park infrastructure in and around Hollow Mountain, Summer Day Valley and Mt Stapylton – this includes many popular rock climbing and bouldering sites; as a result there are many park closures in place. The dry, rocky landscape is now extremely fragile and will take a long time to recover – the fire burnt extremely hot so in many cases regeneration will now occur (very slowly) from seed. Loss of vegetation, loose rocks, unstable soils and loss of access tracks means any foot traffic will have long term impacts on the recovery of the environment. Impacts now will also affect the sustainability of rock climbing sites well into the future.
Please respect the fragility of the environment and support the long term recovery of the Northern Grampians by remaining out of any closed areas. While Parks Victoria regrets the need to enforce closures, substantial fines will be imposed on those found in any closed, fire affected area.
Parks Victoria recognises the importance and popularity of the Northern Grampians to the rock climbing and bouldering communities and will be working closely with industry and community representatives throughout a staged reopening process. Environmental considerations will largely determine when sites are available to be reopened, and replacement of damaged infrastructure will occur as suitable funding is available.
As part of the recovery process, Parks Victoria will be identifying alternative options for climbing and bouldering, and will closely monitor impacts on these sites as their use and popularity increases. There will also be significant work done on the future experience of visitors in the Northern Grampians.
Parks Victoria is continuing to improve its understanding of the needs of climbers and boulderers and is intent on providing an experience that is well respected, regarded, promoted and understood throughout the Australian and International Climbing and bouldering communities.
Parks Victoria will be relying heavily on the climbing industry to work together to spread the messages about the fragility of the landscape and the long term sustainability of rock climbing in the Grampians. There may be opportunities for licenced tour operators, school and community based groups to become involved in the recovery process.
Due to closures in the Northern Grampians, the availability of rock climbing, camping, car touring and bushwalking experiences is limited. Sourcing information on available campgrounds and other accommodation options is recommended. Please visit www.parkweb.vic.gov.au for park maps and regular Grampians fire recovery updates.
For detailed information on available rockclimbing and bouldering sites in and near to the Grampians please refer to recognised guidebooks/websites. A general list of open and available areas includes the following:
Rockclimbing sites open in the Grampians:
- Wonderland Range
- Serra Range (Including Mt Rosea and Bundaleer)
- Mt William Range
- Victoria Point area
- Victoria Range (Including the Red Rock, Muline and the Gallery area. Please respect cultural heritage and recovering fire affected areas)
Limited Bouldering Sites available in and near the Grampians:
- Victoria Range (Including the Gallery area. Please respect cultural heritage and recovering fire affected areas)
- Serra Range (Including Mt Rosea and Bundaleer)
- Mt Arapiles
- Mt Talbot
- The Black Range
Please remember your climbing etiquette:
- Only climb and boulder in open accessible areas
- Stick to tracks
- Respect fragile environmental areas and cultural heritage
- Keep an eye out for Aboriginal Art sites – Report to Parks Victoria if you come across anything new.
- Be mindful of cleaning
- No chipping or bolting
- Avoid excessive chalk
- Take your rubbish home with you
Parks Victoria - Grampians National Park
Open trips
There are no open trips for this crag
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subset: commoncrawl


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text:
January 25, 1990
I. Introduction
11. The SMI Population
111. The System Proposed
IV. Funding
V. Implementation
VI. Conclusion
Arizona has always been proud of its quality of life. This intangible
element has lured thousands to our state and has induced those who were born here to
stay. At least one class of citizen, however, does not share in the benefits offered by the
Arizona lifestyle. Arizona has long either neglected or openly discriminated against its
seriously mentally ill population. These Arizonans have been left behind in our pursuit
of the good life under the sun.
In 1989 the Supreme Court of Arizona in AmoM v. Sam, quoting Sen.
Hubert Humphrey, said:
[tlhe moral test of government is how it treats those who are
in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the
twilight of life, the aged; and those who are in the shadows
of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.
The court continued to say that "Arizona has imprisoned its CMI in the shadows of
public apathy" and ordered that the CMI are entitled to adequate care under a
comprehensive and unified system.
It is now time for our state to redress this grievance against a whole class
of Arizonans. The Governor, on May 9, 1989, issued an Executive Order creating the
Governor's Task Force on the Seriously Mentally I11 (SMI). What follows is the Task
Force's recommendation, adopted unanimously on January 25, 1990, for a plan it
believes carries out the Supreme Court's ruling, a plan designed to attack the public
apathy which has for too long plagued the SMI.
s. LA Schw, CChairmmr
Governor's Task Forre - SMI
In 1981 a class action was filed on behalf of five indigent, chronically mentally
ill individuals against the Arizona Department of Health Services (ADHS), the Arizona
State Hospital (ASH), and the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors. The charge:
Indigent chronically mentally ill individuals were being denied care in contravention of
Arizona law which provided for a full continuum of care for the "chronically mentally ill"
population of ~rizona.' In 1989 the Supreme Court of Arizona in Arnold v. Sam, upheld
the lower court's decision. Finding that the rights of the class were, indeed, being violated,
the high court decreed that all chronically mentally ill people are entitled to adequate care
under a comprehensive and unified system.
In May 1989, Governor Mofford announced the formation of a Task Force,
charging it with the responsibility to recommend a plan which would comport with the
intent and requirements of the Supreme Court decision. Meetings commenced in late
August of 1989 and have continued nearly every other week to the present. This final
report of the Task Force has been prepared with the assistance of the Department of
Psychiatry of the University of Arizona College of Medicine.'
Members of the Task Force represent a wide variety of interests and
disciplines, including advocates for the mentally ill, consumers and their families, the
Professor and Head of the Department of Psychiatry of the University of Arizona,
government representatives, a member of the judiciary, legislators, a provider of services
to the seriously mentally ill, representatives of the mental health system, and members of
the business community. Interest and participation have been keen throughout the
The Task Force plan for a comprehensive system of care is based upon the
following fundamental principles:
All SMI are entitled to be served by a comprehensive system of care that
provides them with a broad range of services;
The system must be easily accessible and non-discriminatory;
The "dollar must follow the consumer" at all levels;
The SMI, their families, guardians, advocates, and clinicians should have
significant control and reasonable options in selecting appropriate care;
The system must be held to a rigorous standard of objective monitoring and
evaluation and must be flexible and able to adapt to new data and ideas as
they evolve;
The system must be centralized, with statutory responsibility vested under a
single authority -- the ADHS; and
1 As is explained below, the Task Force recommends that the term "seriously mentally
ill" be used in place of and synonymously with the term "chronically mentally ill."
'Special thanks go to Ms. Jill Goetz from the College of Medicine and to Ms. Terry
Rider for their assistance in preparing this report.
To guarantee accountability as well as responsibility, a new SMI division
within ADHS should be created to be solely responsible for administering
the new system.
The SMI Population
The chronically mentally ill are described in the Arizona Revised Statutes as
3. The 'chronically mentally ill' are persons, who as
a result of a mental disorder as defined in 8 36-501, paragraph
21, exhibit emotional or behavioral functioning which is so
impaired as to interfere substantially with their capacity to
remain in the community without supportive treatment or
services of a long-term or indefinite duration. In these persons
mental disability is severe and persistent, resulting in a
long-term limitation of their functional capacities for primary
activities of daily living such as interpersonal relationships,
homemaking, self-care, employment and recreation.
Xc 0 rc
Mental Disorder is defined as follows:
21. 'Mental disorder' means a substantial disorder
of the person's emotional processes, thought, cognition, or
memory. Mental disorder is distinguished from:
(a) Conditions which are primarily those of drug
abuse, alcoholism or mental retardation, unless, in addition to
one or more of these conditions, the person has a mental
(b) The declining mental abilities that directly
accompany impending death.
(c) Character and personality disorders characterized
by lifelong and deeply ingrained anti-social behavior patterns,
including sexual behaviors which are abnormal and prohibited
by statute unless the behavior results from a mental disorder.
In keeping with the modern trend, the Task Force recommends that the term
"seriously mentally ill" be used in place of and synonymously with the term "chronically
mentally ill." The Task Force believes that the current statutory definition should be
maintained and that ADHS must broaden its checklist to determine SMI eligibility to bring
it into compliance with the statutory definition. In addition, commitment laws should be
modified to address the question of competency of the SMI to participate in medical and
health care treatment decisions and the process of adjudication as a CMI (SMI) be
considered as an additional approach to define those persons eligible for treatment and to
assure such treatment within the structure of the proposed system.
There are subpopulations within the SMI population which have specific
needs and require special attention. The proposed system must be sensitive to cultural and
special needs of all subpopulations and be accessible to all those who are in need of care.
Examples of such special groups are: minorities, the homeless, the SMI living in rural
communities, Native Americans, and those in jails and prisons.
The Homeless SMI
Studies demonstrate that 20% to 40% of Arizona's homeless are seriously
mentally ill. Their illness does not result from their homelessness; rather, their
homelessness ensues from their illness.
The Task Force recommends that, in coordination with public and private
organizations now working in the field, specific programs for the homeless SMI be
established in all areas of the state to bring them into the state system. These special
outreach programs shall identify the SMI and provide them with services -- including food,
clothing and shelter -- in the soup kitchens, parks, and shelters where this proliferating
and most vulnerable segment of the SMI now live.
The Incarcerated SMI
The Task Force recommends:
That the fundamental goal of mental health treatment in jails and prisons
should be to provide the same level of mental health services that are
available in the community and to promote coordination between community
care and the justice system;
That all state agencies endorse the report of the American Psychiatric
Association entitled 'Tsychiatric Services in Jails and Prisons" (March 1989),
and that all correctional facilities, including county jails and facilities, that
house the SMI comply with the standards of the National Commission on
Correctional Health Care. A liaison should be established among the
criminal justice system and mental health professionals to ensure that there
is coordination among the various aspects of the system to assure proper
placement and treatment; and
That statutes be enacted which will give the criminal justice system authority,
when appropriate, to divert the SMI into the mental health system for
treatment and monitoring.
Establishing the Number of SMI
The Task Force charge is to define a system of comprehensive services
responsive to the needs of the SMI and their families. As would be expected, the Task
Force felt that getting an accurate estimate of the number of SMI in Arizona was a
prerequisite to defining such a system and establishing its cost. This proved to be no easy
task: although there have been many studies and estimates, no one can say with assurance
how many SMI live in Arizona.
As of 1989, Peat Marwick, in its state-commissioned report "Preliminary Plan
for Complying with AmoM v. Sam," estimated the number of SMI in Arizona at
approximately 15,000. Maricopa County has said there are 7,500 within its county and, by
extrapolation, 12,500 statewide. The Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest
estimates the number at about 18,000. Other professional studies estimate the number at
anywhere from 25,000 to 45,000.
The fact is that the number of people in Arizona suffering with serious
mental illness is unknown and will probably not be determinable until a viable system,
accessible to all SMI, is up and running. However, in order to plan, we will assume a
reasonable compromise estimate of at least 15,000 SMI currently within the state,
increasing to 25,000 by the year 1995.
Proposed System
Our primary goal is to create a comprehensive and cost-effective system of
care. To achieve this, the current system -- which the Supreme Court characterized as a
"non-system," inadequate, fragmented, and suffering from neglect -- must be modified
substantially. We recommend that: county SMI responsibility and corresponding
expenditures should be transferred to the state; current county expenditures be contributed
to defray state costs; ADHS be designated as the single statutorily responsible agency for
a statewide system; and a new SMI division within ADHS be established to carry out these
responsibilities to assure suitable attention and authority to carry out this commitment to
the SMI.
The ADHS-SMI Division will enter into agreements with SMI Regional
Authorities throughout the state. These Regional Authorities will, in turn, enter into
agreements with SMI Central Primary Care Organizations, which will become the focal
points of the new system. These organizations will, within their regions, be responsible
for crisis and case management, intake, advocacy, clinical services, and a wide range of
other supportive services.
To meet specific needs, there may be circumstances where the Regional
Authorities' duties may be combined with those of either the Central Primary Care
Organization or the ADHS-SMI Division.
The Central Primary Care Organization will, in turn, contract with service
providers to provide the entire continuum of care mandated by Amold v. Sam. The
Central Primary Care Organization may be a public authority or any other nonprofit agency
capable of performing the services required. We will elaborate on this proposed structure
in the pages to follow.
(Includes Crisis and Case Management,
Intake, Advocacy, Clinical Services, etc.)
ADHS-SMI Division
The Task Force recommends that the ADHS be designated as the single
statutorily responsible agency for a statewide system of care to the SMI population. To
pinpoint responsibility and accountability, an SMI Division should be established within
ADHS with responsibility to:
Seek out and receive all federal, state, and local funds and allocate such
funds, on a per-capita basis, with special consideration given to rural and
other special areas to accommodate cost differences;
Pursue and obtain Medicaid funding for services for the SMI;
Establish and enforce standards for care, licensing, and certification of
providers of services to the SMI;
Coordinate intergovernmental activities within the state and between the state
and the federal government;
Maintain a comprehensive data bank to track the SMI and determine their
individual needs, as well as the propriety of services provided;
Establish formal public and academic relations with the state university system
to facilitate research, professional training, and public education;
Promote adequate housing by coordinating federal, state, and local housing
programs for the SMI; assist in enforcing the Federal Fair Housing Act;
obtain and administer housing subsidies where possible; certify housing
services and monitor compliance; and coordinate local housing agencies,
mental health service providers, and banking and real estate interests to
encourage the establishment of all forms of appropriate housing for the SMI;
Work with the Attorney General's Office to assure that all local government
authorities in the state recognize the provisions of the Federal Fair Housing
Act banning discrimination against the SMI and to take any action necessary
to assure compliance with the law;
Provide training and educational opportunities for case managers so that
they can assist the SMI of Arizona in receiving all "entitlements" for which
they may be eligible;
Establish a State Advisory Board to the SMI Division, with membership to
include consumers, advocates, and public officials; and
Require independent and objective evaluations of the effectiveness and quality
of the system, which will be integrated and conducted on an objective
statewide basis by an independent organization. Input will be required from
consumers, advocates, family members, and all those involved with the system.
These evaluations, as well as ongoing internal ADHS evaluations, will be
submitted annually to the Governor, the President of the Senate, and the
Speaker of the House.
Regional Authorities
SMI Regional Authorities should be established for as many regions as may
be required to provide a geographically and culturally sensitive system. These authorities
Act as regional administrative arms of the ADHS;
Receive funds from ADHS;
Monitor and audit the utilization of funds;
Monitor quality assurance and peer review activities;
Create liaisons with local law enforcement agencies, jails, and courts;
Serve as a center for patient advocacy;
Facilitate regional evaluation and planning;
Coordinate and facilitate regional fund-raising activities for SMI services; and
Enter into agreements with one or more Central Primary Care Organization
within the region.
The geographical boundary of the region over which a Regional Authority
will have jurisdiction shall consist of one county or more. The number of Regional
Authorities will be based on the geographic distribution of SMI consumers in the state.
Each authority may be a separate nonprofit organization and may be a county or other
governmental body with a board of directors composed of consumers, family members,
advocates, and public members. The management, monitoring, licensing, and administrative
authorities shall be separate and distinct from the service delivery system.
Central Primary Care Organization
The Central Primary Care Organizations (CPCO's) will be focal points for the
system within each region and entry points for consumers to the system. A CPCO will hire
clinical case management teams to work with the SMI, determine their needs, provide or
access appropriate services, and track their progress. Team members will include a
psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker, nurse, psychiatric technician, and others. The
CPCO will provide an alternative to what are now the traditional points of entry into the
system -- hospital emergency rooms, walk-in clinics, and the criminal justice system.
Each team will guarantee that all SMI have access to supportive services,
including, but not be limited to: case management, day treatment, outreach, medications,
and crisis stabilization (see more complete list on the following pages). Case managers will
also be able to arrange travel for the SMI to treatment centers and funding to help them
cover survival expenses. All SMIs, whether they are coming through the jails, courts,
homeless centers, or other institutions, will enter the system at this point.
It is estimated that nearly half of all of Arizona's SMI live at home.
Therefore, the family participation is critical to the treatment plan. SMI individuals, their
families, guardians, and/or advocates, and front-line clinicians will have significant control
and reasonable options to create and/or purchase required services.
Case management teams will have the responsibility for deciding what services
are to be purchased for their clients. Case management teams may either provide directly
or purchase services from any provider. Private or governmental agencies and hospitals
independent of the system's administrative structure will be eligible.
The CPCO will either deliver or purchase from service providers a full range
of services for the SMI, including:
24-hour emergency
hotline services;
short-term crisis beds;
mobile acute crisis
intake and referral;
diagnosis and evaluation;
crisis intervention;
walk-in services;
crisis foster care and
respite care;
day support services;
long-term outpatient
psychiatric care;
Service Providers
sheltered workshops;
prevocational and vocational
job training and placement;
domestic skills and training;
adult foster care;
volunteer services;
alcohol and drug abuse services;
dependent, semi-independent,
independent, open community,
and congregate care residential
outreach to the homeless; and
outreach to nursing homes.
The CPCO will enter into agreements with service providers to furnish the
continuum of care and services required to serve the SMI. These services may be provided
by any organization or group, including governmental organizations. We further
recommend that regional branches of the ASH be established which will all be an integral
part of this continuum of care.
The Task Force has concluded that the exclusion of mental illness coverage
from the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCCS) is discriminatory and
that the State of Arizona should immediately commence negotiations with the federal
government to qualify the SMI for coverage under Title XIX of the Social Security Act.
This program should be coordinated by the newly created ADHS-SMI Division.
The Regional Authorities, under the SMI Division direction, will establish
and coordinate local methods of purchasing services. These different methods will include
fees for service and prepaid and capitated financing based on patient needs and program
evolution. Any ADHS prepaid or capitated funds designated for the provision or purchase
of services for the SMI but not expended by a Regional Authority or its service provider
contractors at the end of a contract year may be rolled over into the next contract year but
should continue to be restricted to the purchase or provision of services to the SMI. Such
funds should not revert to ADHS. Each individual clinical case management team will
retain the authority for referral and purchase of services based on individual patient needs.
All purchase of s e ~ caeg reements will be flexible enough to quickly increase or decrease
funding based on actual need and utilization pursuant to established standards of care.
Counties shall contribute to the cost of the system and be capped commensurate at their
current expenditures. The ADHS should administer the program in a way that will ensure
that funding priority is given to the most critical survival needs of the SMI.
As previously pointed out, because we cannot accurately determine the
number of SMI in Arizona, establishing the cost of a comprehensive service system for
them is very difficult: one cannot allocate dollars per client when the number is unknown.
There are as many views of what the cost of a system would be as there are commentators.
The state-commissioned Peat Marwick study estimates the total cost to be $335.9 million.
The estimated statewide cost based upon an extrapolation of the Maricopa County numbers
is $133 million per year. The Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest predicts about
$292 million per year. All of these numbers include the aggregate state and federal monies
necessary to establish an effective system. Estimates of Medicaid reimbursement of state
expense range from 30 percent to over 60 percent -- further reflecting the wide range of
opinions held on this complex issue.
As with the population statistics, the reality is that we really will not know
what the true costs of the system will be until the system has been created and is in
operation. The lack of good data presents a Catch-22. However, there is a credible
solution to predicting the cost of a viable SMI system. We call it the "Let's be Average"
formulation. In calculating the cost of the SMI system, the formulation depends not on the
number of SMI but rather on the average per-capita expense for the general population of
the various states' SMI programs.
We believe that the best way for Arizona to budget its system is to seek to
become an average funding state. It is to be noted that some of the states with only
average SMI budgets have the best SMI systems of care. While the Task Force does not
suggest that average is acceptable, it recognizes the reality of fiscal constraints and that
attaining a level of funding equal to the national average is a viable and reasonable goal.
We know that Arizona is now spending about $17.00 per Arizonan for adult
mental health care -- the lowest per-capita cost of any of the 50 states. We also know that
the U.S. average per-capita cost was about $46 in 1989. To achieve the reforms required
and become an average funding state over the next five years, the state should budget
about $32 per Arizonan in 1990-91, $37 in 1991-92, $43 in 1992-93, $49 in 1993-94, and $54
in 1994-95.
The 'Zet's be Average" formulation assumes that the budget for the new
system will be phased in over a five-year period. Thus, it will not be necessary to reach the
full budget until the fifth year. The following schedules demonstrate the effect of this
'~dju sted annually for growth.
I, 4Using ADHS budget figures of:
Community Services 31,334,400
Administration 1,563,713
AZ State Hospital 28,578,000
# The current estimated expenditure per capita is $16.75. Current national average is accepted
as $46.23. This figure is adjusted annually for inflation, with the expectation that the
average will be $54.08 in FY 94-95.
5Each prior year figure includes an inflationary adjustment for maintenance of effort.
State legislation should also examine requiring insurance companies to
provide equivalent coverage for physical and mental illness. It is clear to the Task
Force that the impact of the insurance industry's failure to address the needs of the SMI
creates a burden on the public system. Both private and federal insurance, including
Medicaid, must be integrated into the system of care.
The Task Force recommends that funding for the new system be
appropriated on the basis of a five-year plan, commencing in fiscal year 1990-91, and
then be phased in over the next four years. During the first year, we recommend that
the following actions occur:
Enact legislation so that ADHS becomes the central authority for a
statewide system and consolidate all funding sources;
Create SMI Division within ADHS;
Appropriate funding increases to conform with the plan;
Expand ADHS checklist to include all of Arizona's SMI as defined by law;
Establish and select Regional Authorities;
Establish and select CPCOs;
Establish standards of care and define compliance criteria;
Create data bank;
Immediately apply for federal Medicaid assistance and integrate both
private insurance and Medicaid payments into the system;
Ascertain the needs of all SMI within the state and then prioritize the
delivery of services to those most in need;
Create ADHS housing office;
Initiate plan for ASH regionalization; and
Designate the Task Force as an oversight body to monitor that the system
is implemented.
The Supreme Court of Arizona in Arnold v. Sam mandated an overhaul of
the current system of care for the SMI. This landmark decision affirmed the
fundamental principle that the SMI people of our state have legal rights to adequate and
accessible treatment for their illness. Acknowledging that Arizona's SMI population has
been denied that right, the state must enact a plan to put this decision into practice.
The Task Force is recommending just such a plan -- one that will bring
dramatic reforms. Putting it into effect will be a daunting challenge, but one that should
result in a system of care for the state's SMI that is unified, cost effective, and fair. By
doing so, we demonstrate that Arizona intends to meet the moral test of government
and free the SMI from the shadows of public apathy.
Governor's Task Force on the Seriously Mentally Ill
S. L. Schorr, Attorney, Lewis and Roca, Tucson
Executive Committee
Charles L. Arnold, mental health attorney and named plaintiff in Amold v. Sam, Phoenix
Linda Brock-Nelson, Owner and President of Linda Brock Automotive Plaza, Scottsdale
Carole Carpenter, Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, Phoenix
Sue Davis, member of the Mental Health Association Board, North Valley Alliance for
the Mentally Ill; Chair of the Governor's Advisory Council on Arizona's Mental Health
Services Plan, Scottsdale
Ann English, Chairman, Cochise County Board of Supervisors, Bisbee
Adolph B. "Fito" Trujillo, Gila County Board of Supervisors, Globe
Alan J. Gelenberg, M.D., Professor and Head of the Department of Psychiatry, University
of Arizona Health Sciences Center, Tucson
Imy Gould, member of the Alliance for the Mentally Ill, Sedona
John Kerr, M.D., pediatrician and member of the State Advisory Council on the Chronically
Mentally Ill; Board of Directors, East Valley Behavioral Health Association, Mesa
Claire King, President of Survivors on Our Own, Phoenix
James E. McDougall*, juvenile judge, Juvenile Court Center, Phoenix
John Morrison, Community Care Network, Phoenix
Jose Santiago, M.D., Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry, Kino Community Hospital,
Representative Eleanor Schorr, Arizona State House of Representatives, Tucson
Eugene Schupak, M.D., retired physician and former president of a national medical
delivery company, Scottsdale
Steven Scott, Executive Director, Phoenix South Community Mental Health Center, Phoenix
Lawrence Sells, Executive Director, Toyei Industries, Window Rock
Senator Alan J. Stephens, Minority Leader, Arizona State Senate, Phoenix
Senator Robert B. Usdane, President, Arizona State Senate, Phoenix
Representative Nancy Wessel, Arizona State House of Representatives, Phoenix
Ted Williams, Director, Arizona Department of Health Services, Phoenix
Governor's Liaison
M. Joyce Geyser, Deputy Chief of Staff, Phoenix
Advisory Committee
Peter Burns, Director, Executive Budget Office, Phoenix
Boyd Dover, Assistant Director, Arizona Department of Health Services, Phoenix
Susan Gallinger, Director, Department of Insurance, insurance issues, Phoenix
Leonard Kirschner, Director, AHCCCS, Phoenix
Glenn Lippman, M.D., Superintendent, Arizona State Hospital
*Limitation of Endorsement: Because of an ethical limitation, Judge McDougall cannot
endorse the Final Report in regard to any express or implied certification that the matters
contained therein comply with the requirements or mandates of Arnold v. Sam.
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C: \ System Utilities \ Other \ logview4net 12.18
logview4net 12.18 - Detailed Description Page
Program ID:
jsiSoft All programs by this author
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A free (open source) log monitor/log viewer for:
* Files
* Incomming UDP and TCP traffic
* EventLogs
* SQL tables
* Atom and RSS feeds
* StdOut / StdErr
Listens to UDP and TCP ports either in broadcast or single endpoint mode.
Monitors an eventlog, uses events on the local machine and polling on remote machines.
Monitors a log file or folder. Doing a tail using polling.
Monitors a table in a MS SQL-Server or MySql database. Doing a tail using polling.
Monitors Atom and RSS feeds.
Monitors StdOut / StdErr of applications
Can highlight or hide messages depending on content.
Supports multiple simultaneous listeners in each session.
Supports several simultaneous sessions (MDI).
Keywords: log, viewer, event, tail, file, folder, udp, tcp, debug, trace, monitor, Freeware, System Utilities, Other, jsiSoft, logview4net
Recent Changes: Added MySQL Listener
Install Support: Install and Uninstall
Supported Languages: English
Additional Requirements: .NET Framework 2.0
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First spotted on this runway, this elegant necklace marries two of Oscar's favorite motifs—lace and flowers. This open collar necklace features enchanting lace petals with a Swarovski center. Handcrafted in our exclusive Russian gold for the perfect rich finish.
• 15" long
• Large flower is 2.75" wide
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Whether you like classic cotton briefs, French knickers, thongs or lace, this is your one-stop-shop for the perfect knickers. Take your pick of everyday styles, browse our figure-fixing shapewear or choose from a selection of glamorous designs to find the perfect pair.
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To roaring applause, the votes on the International Labor Organization (ILO) Convention on Decent Work for Domestic Workers appeared on the screen: 396 yes, 16 no, 63 abstain. Domestic workers cheered from the ILO Congressional balcony and unfurled a banner, "Congratulations! Now the Domestic Work for Governments: Ratify! Implement!"
"For the first time, domestic workers will no longer be invisible and unrecognized," wrote Yenny Hurtado of Sindicato Nacional Trabajadoras del Servicio Domestico from Colombia. "It was an incredible experience to be at the ILO negotiating the hours, pay and benefits we want."
ILO Convention 189 recognizes domestic work as labor with basic human rights protections. It was the result of over three decades of organizing by domestic workers associations, networks, and coalitions including many Global Fund grantee partners. These groups represent some the world's most exploited workers: women, racial and ethnic minorities, indigenous people, and migrants. Many earn low wages with no benefits, enduring long hours in unsafe conditions where they are vulnerable to sexual, physical and verbal abuse.
Though isolated in their employer's homes, women from Asia, Africa, Europe, the Americas and the Caribbean managed to organize locally, build alliances within their countries and across regions, and take their demands all the way to the highest decision-making body on labor: the ILO.
"This is a victory for all domestic workers, but it's also a victory for the Global Fund for Women as one of the only international organizations that provides support to our struggles," Rosa Acosta of Astradom wrote to us from Costa Rica. Of the 20 domestic worker delegates to the ILO, 12 were Global Fund grantees, including CARAM Asia, the South African Domestic, Service and Allied Workers Union, and National Union for Domestic Employees from Trinidad and Tobago.
The Global Fund for Women salutes domestic workers for making history!
Next in the Annual Report: Flex Your Tech »


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Cartier boutique on Newbury Street hosted its annual Holiday Party for 120 invited guests on Monday, November 26th. The event was held in honor of the Boston Ballet. On hand to mingle with guests - and to provide a festive holiday touch - were the Ballet's Nutcracker and Sugar Plum Fairy.
Photos by Roger Farrington


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I know it's not a Martin so take it easy on me.
Been looking at the Anarchy since it came out but the price has kept me just looking. I got a killer deal on a new, in box 2011 so I bought it. The 11,12, and 13 all have the same specs and are currently selling for $899 everywhere so when I seen it for $430 shipped I jumped. Wanted to try a 35" ata, prefer split limbs, curious about the roller cable guard/slide, single cam, and figured why not. Gotta say so far I like it. Put my favorites on it, HHA 5510, Ripcord, and a Fuse Axium stab. I can tell you this thing is fast, quiet, light and well balanced. The draw is not as smooth as my Ridge Hunter but fairly close, the Bear has a slight "hump" where the Ridge Hunter doesn't. Got it sighted at 20 before it got dark and no disappointments in accuracy. It does however bury half the arrow in the targets.


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Imagine your life with less dependence on contacts or glasses.
Whether you want to see with your eyes open under water, fall asleep watching TV without worrying about taking off your glasses, or go for a jog in the rain, you wonder what it would be like to feel the freedom of not needing glasses or contact lenses to see clearly.
You want to be able to talk to a doctor about laser vision correction—a highly experienced doctor who makes you feel comfortable, who teaches you about your vision and helps you decide whether or not this is a safe procedure for you.
Here you will find a team of eye care professionals that is dedicated solely to laser and surgical vision correction. Highly specialized in the safety and effectiveness of these procedures, FEI's Refractive Surgery Center physicians and staff will ensure that you receive the best care and guidance available.
The Flaum Eye Institute at the University of Rochester Medical Center combines the premier clinical and research resources in laser and surgical vision correction to provide you with the most customized approach to evaluating and treating you and your vision.
Using Zyoptix, the Technolas Excimer Laser Workstation and the advanced "University of Rochester Nomogram" treatment planning software, Dr. Scott MacRae and the FEI team help approximately 99.3% of their patients with typical prescriptions to see 20/20 or better without glasses after laser vision correction surgery.
Fewer than 5% of patients who have surgery at the Refractive Surgery Center require retreatment to achieve the visual outcome that they desire. These outcomes are some of the best available in the world. Dr. MacRae achieves these results using specialized treatment formulas developed by the Flaum Eye Institute Refractive Surgery Center Data Analysis Team.
The University of Rochester Nomogram advanced treatment planning software (provisional patent filed) is currently being made available to other users of theTechnolas but was developed by Dr. MacRae here at the Flaum Eye Institute. It is the only LASIK treatment nomogram used in the United States that has been approved by the FDA.
What Should You Look For In A Refractive Surgeon?
Dr. Scott MacRae
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Life Sciences and Healthcare
The life sciences and healthcare industry is heavily reliant on information technology, and is moving toward a transformation that is characterized by simplified operating environments and access to real-time information through multiple channels. Turning such information into actionable insights requires that organizations gain a vantage view of patient history. But, even as technologies to improve these processes gain importance, there is need to cost effectively manage these applications. And with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act, hospitals are looking to rationally minimize their financial expenditure. This would likely initiate the growth of cohesive delivery, risk-based healthcare, and reforms in medical education and medical malpractice.
Why should you consider HCL?
Digital System Integration (DSI™): Through its system integration approach to digitalization, HCL enables technology-led business process transformation for its clients. We help clients be "reborn digitally" by transforming their application landscapes to a future ready infrastructure with a single view of data across the enterprise. Know more about Digital System Integration (DSI™).
HCL's ALT ASM™ Framework for the Life Sciences and Healthcare sector. Maintaining your existing IT systems even while investing in new solutions can be quite challenging, requiring well planned processes. Our ALT ASM™ framework – our alternative view on ASM - has been instrumental in substantially reducing customers' cost of operations by up to 30%, and increasing their productivity. The framework adopts what we call - a "proactive obsolescence" approach - which provides incremental value beyond the traditional ASM contract and unlocks a large amount of working capital from our clients' ASM spend. This unlocked capital can then be re-invested in newer patient care technologies and the necessary migration from legacy applications. HCL's ALT ASM is helping organizations achieve their target of maximizing revenues and minimizing spends.
Comprehensive industry experience. Seven of the top ten global pharmaceutical companies, six of the top ten health insurers, one of the top three diagnostics conglomerates, one of the largest payer conglomerates in the US, and the top five service providers in the UK (for life and pensions) are just some of the clients who have depended on us for nearly a decade to help develop affordable, value-based technology solutions.
A broad footprint. Through our roster of experts, we offer services in the critical areas of member experience management, fraud, waste and abuse management, ICD-10 transformation, drug discovery and development, clinical development, regulatory compliance, drug safety, pharmacovigilance, data analytics, manufacturing and plant automation, and sales and marketing. HCL's customers also benefit from our regulatory center of excellence, a healthcare competency center (headed by industry experts, including PAHM, HIPAA, PMP, and RAC certified professionals), and delivery teams supported by doctors, PhDs, and scientific researchers.
Valuable partnerships. Our Co-Innovation Lab, recently established in Singapore with a large global pharmaceutical firm, develops new technologies supporting global operations.
Transformational solutions. For healthcare payers, we offer services and support that help them provide an excellent customer experience, keep pace with a dynamic marketplace, adapt to the healthcare reform agenda, manage payments, and facilitate claims auditing and recovery. For pharmaceutical companies, we provide solutions for managing clinical trial and safety data throughout their ecosystem.
Flexibility. In collaboration with other HCL service lines, we provide commercial and technical cloud sourcing models and end-to-end platforms that integrate infrastructure, enterprise applications, and business process outsourcing.
How can HCL help you?
|Our services for healthcare payers include:
|Our services for pharma clients include:
The pharmaceutical, provider and payer pages provides more details about our offerings. Contact us to make a conversation with HCL
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Industrialized Clinical Data Standards Management - Transforming Clinical Data into Business Intelligence
Transforming Clinical Development - Risk Based Approach to Site Monitoring
Fraud, Waste and Abuse Management Solution
Digital Care Management – Building a Healthier Future
Text Analytics in Healthcare Records & Claims – FWA a case in point
Differentiated approach for chronic disease management – ADHD a case in point
|Case studies
Emerging Care Management Models in Developing Countries
Endo Pharmaceuticals Implements Open Innovation Network With HCL and Other R&D Partners
ICD Transformation for an Independent Licensee of the BCBS Association
|Market Segments
|Solutions & Frameworks


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but the point here isn't to save 95% of their customers money. It's to monetize the 95%+ percentile of customers that use the lion's share of the available network capacity.
I'm glad you admit that this is strictly about milking the subset of customers that consume above average resources for no other reason that "we can" and a mistaken understanding of costs associated with the above average use.
I can dispute your use of the word "greater" as a person that has an average bitrate of 5mbit/s has a very marginal cost over someone that uses 100kbits/s per second and that is a fact.
I can dispute your use of the word "greater" as a person that has an average bitrate of 5mbit/s has a very marginal cost over someone that uses 100kbits/s per second and that is a fact.
Yes, it costs money to upgrade a node. However, unless the network is completely mismanaged to the point of incompetence, a single user using above average resources cannot be attributed to the cost. That's like saying that the 3 lane interstate highway is congested for 5 hours a day, and at 5 hours and 1 minute of congestion per day the next driver is responsible for adding an additional lane to the highway (millions and millions of dollars). It's ridiculous.
Your point is well taken, and is an argument for basing access charges on bandwidth: provide a 100kbit/sec pipe for a cheap flat rate, and a 5Mbit/sec pipe for a higher flat rate. This is in no way a justification for per-byte usage charges on top of the flat-rate charge for bandwidth.
It certainly is not ridiculous.Indeed, fair allocation of fixed costs is precisely the idea behind toll lanes on otherwise-free highways. Because it's the peak-period drivers who are forcing the road to be expanded, it would be fair for them to pay 100% of the costs. In contrast, the off-peak drivers could've gotten by without the extra lanes, so they should pay 0% of the costs. For example, just two months ago, Los Angeles opened High Occupancy/Toll lanes on the I-110.It's also becoming common for bridge and tunnel expansions to be paid for through time-of-day pricing. If you use it at midnight, you pay one rate, because you could've gotten by just fine on the old two-lane bridge. If you use it during rush hour, then you pay a much higher rate, because you're one of the commuters that forced the government to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a new bridge.That "millions and millions of dollars" argument is an illogical strawman. Nobody's asking one person to pay all of the money up-front. The fees are paid a little bit at a time, collectively, by all the people who forced the upgrade. Just like bandwidth cap overages are paid collectively, tens of dollars at a time, by all of the people exceeding the cap.
You are not consistent with your own flawed analogy so this discussion is going no where.With cable admitting that caps are not about congestion, your point is completely debunked. It's also not about fairness. Until grandma is paying $5 a month for checking her email and the torrent users pay $1000 a month for their heavily used connection, this isn't about fairness. It's about cable companies wanting to double dip for services that are already provided and paid for.
Yes, it's unfair that grandma doesn't get to pay $5 for cable Internet, while the bandwidth hog pays $1000. But surely it's fairer to charge grandma $50 and the bandwidth hog $100, rather than charging everyone $60.The problem is that bits are not like molecules -- they're free to transport, until you have to do a node split. So do you price them like they're free, with a fixed infrastructure charge? Or do you price them like they're expensive, with a metered charge? Why not a combination of both, to account for their hybrid nature?To point to the lack of a $5 grandma rate as a reason not to charge overage fees is illogical. You think it's unfair not to charge pure usage-based pricing, so you instead advocate a flat rate in which it's even less fair?I don't understand this "gotcha" mentality when it comes to the guy's comments on congestion. The reason that there is no congestion today is precisely because the cable companies have spent money in the past -- on DOCSIS 3, on logical node splits, on physical node splits. Plus, the fairness argument isn't exactly new.
Yes, it's unfair that grandma doesn't get to pay $5 for cable Internet, while the bandwidth hog pays $1000. But surely it's fairer to charge grandma $50 and the bandwidth hog $100, rather than charging everyone $60.
..and if they can't handle multiple customers having super/ultra-fast tiers, why did they offer it in the first place?
Because residential services are priced on the assumption that you will only burst to the max speed.
Max speed is not the only part of the equation. Average speed also matters. A 1.5 Mbps user who continually maxes out the connection is actually using more network resources than a 20 Mbps burst user who averages less than 1 Mbps.
But it still can't be unlimited, because the pricing of residential cable Internet is only made possible by the fact that people do not max out their connections.
Um.. If I'm paying for a 18mbps connection and I'm only getting 4, it becomes an issue. I should be getting at least between 12-18mbps constant, not whatever they feel like.
But you're not paying for 18 Mbps of sustained bandwidth. You're paying for 18 Mbps burst, and "whatever they feel like" average speed.Go to a Metro Ethernet company and see how much it costs to get 18 Mbps of dedicated bandwidth.
Did you read any of my post? I did not say I'm expecting 18Mbps all the time. I'm saying it should be at least in the same ballpark instead of half or less.
The problem is that you can never tell when a bandwidth hog will move in and wreck the calculations. Well, unless you put in caps, to keep the bandwidth hogs out.And you're opposed to caps.
..and the whole "bandwidth hog" thing is crap anyway. So, you have an OC3 connection feeding hundreds of customers that have purchased a 5mbps connection. Then a "bandwidth hog" comes in and uses a bit of it. Hey, he's paying for the 5mbps connection that you advertised. Then everyone's connection slows down because you failed to account for people actually using their connection speeds.
It's simple math. 5Mbps * 100 customers = 500Mbps.


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Shipped to their door. Inside a signature box, an enticing gift waits to be opened and enjoyed. Details
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