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I've gotten in plenty of political conversations before. They are always off the cuff with facts and reasoning from the top of my head. I usually don't do too good. But, thinking this approach over, there is one conversation I want to be very well prepared for....
A friend of yours wants to join the army. What do you say to stop him? What points would you suggest that should be brought up?
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"Even when leftists talk about discrimination and sexism, they're damn well talking about the results of the economic system" ~Neodoxy
I think the most effective method of dissuading someone is determined largely by the first man's reasons for wanting to do whatever the second man doesn't want him to.
In other words, it kind of depends on why he wants to join.
I simply asked a friend who wanted to join the military "Are you okay with working for an organization that kills women and children?" Making him face that hopefully at least planted a seed of doubt.
You pay taxes to it, and walk on its roads. Probably a bunch of other things, too. Same difference?
No, those things are forced upon you. I certainly wouldn't fault someone who is conscripted into the military.
There is nothing inherently dishonorable in soldiering as an occupation. The trouble is that the world's militaries operate in an accountability vacuum. They kill innumerable innocents without consequence. Liability is not enforced on national militaries, primarily because by its very nature it cannot be. The problem arises from the military's ample public subsidy and alliance with a territorial monopoly on law. Until these issues are addressed, militaries will continue to be inherently aggressive rather than inherently defensive and the occupation of soldiering will continue to be filled primarily by nihilistic sociopaths, people that would have ended up on death row had they instead led a completely private, civilian life.
Clayton -
They're only forced upon you in that they're your best options. Use their roads or starve. Where do you draw the line? Suppose it's use their roads or be homeless. Or use their roads or be very poor. And so on. Ultimately, the line is determined by your moral compass. If you trust that your friend is basically a decent person, it'll probably be fine for him to join the army.
That's downright irresponsible reasoning.
Telling them that they're a corporate pawn may not be the best way to convince them otherwise (since humans tend to be extremely emotional thinkers). My guess is that they'd take offense to it, but the truth hurts sometimes. I would probably start by asking their opinions on the wars and then telling them that the U.S. is going to continue in fighting aggressive wars; and while they get a number of perks for joining the military, the amount of arbitrary war that the state gets involved in could wind up getting them killed for no real reason.
Well, shit, that's different. I thought that Scrooge was criticizing the moral element of joining the army, especially given his response to me. The psychological effect it will have is a different matter.
Coase:They're only forced upon you in that they're your best options. Use their roads or starve. Where do you draw the line? Suppose it's use their roads or be homeless. Or use their roads or be very poor. And so on.
That makes absolutely no sense. The force he's talking about is the force of taxation that is used to pay for the roads...not the fact that using them is the best way to get around.
And "their" roads? We just got through saying how it is "we" who paid for them.
@Coase: OK, you're half-way there... as a non-expert, can you venture a guess on why the psychological effect of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is so incredibly large? This isn't our first time around the block with this. About 40 years ago we were enmired in a very similar sort of conflict... we know why Vietnam veterans were so psychological traumatized by their experiences there. They were participating in what was often wholesale slaughter, fish-in-a-barrel situations and the post-WWII advances in military training had begun to overcome the usual moral red flags that stopped soldiers from pulling the trigger in the past (see Lt. Col. David Grossman's book On Killing for more information). We are dropping GPS-guided multi-ton munitions on mud-brick buildings in residential neighborhoods so close that our own soldiers are occasionally hit by them. The body count in Iraq is well over a million. Do the math; the kill-ratio is insane. I remember a news item about a year or two back where we snuffed an entire wedding party in Afghanistan. We've got Army units being investigated for planting weapons (it's called a "drop weapon") on dead bodies they know weren't combatants in order to reduce paperwork and avoid questions. And, as always, whatever we get to find out about is just the tip of the iceberg. Both my brothers-in-law have been deployed to Iraq and one of my high-school buddies was deployed there during the initial push into Baghdad and saw the worst of it... I can tell you he's not the same person I grew up with. I don't know exactly what happened over there but it's permanently messed him up.
Show your friend these:
Wow. Those are powerful.
Anarcho-libertarian: HOW do you post the embedded video????
Here's a recent National Guard ad... creepy as a step-uncle with nothing but a trenchcoat and boxers:
Compare to this:
Both impart that same feeling of anticipation of an epic spectacle. That particular movement of Carl Orff's Carmina Burana is very creepy and weird. I've listened to the other movements of that piece and this movement stands out from everything else like it was just "inserted" into the piece. Very odd. Composed in Germany during the rise of the Nazi party (though no direct Nazi affiliation that I know of). Still creepy.
Clayton, click reply on my video post to see exactly how. And note that the share link under Youtube videos which says youtu.be/blahblahblah doesn't post. Copy the video link that has .com in it on the address bar.
Love the propaganda comparison. Loyalty, duty, and honor to mein fuhrer!
I certainly wouldn't fault someone who is conscripted into the military.
I certainly wouldn't fault someone who is conscripted into the military.
I don't understand this. If someone is conscripted, they are free to engage in civil disobedience. Jail is still an option available to them. I think it would be more honorable to go to jail than join the army in such a case.
@Sukrit: Easier said than done. Ft. Leavenworth is not a happy place.
Yes, I really want to. but I have heard that this one is really very costly, for a simple person
If a draft happens I will either get a college deferment or take a random vacation to somewhere pleasant before I'm called to duty and mysteriously forget what year it is.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Scrooge McDuck:
I simply asked a friend who wanted to join the military "Are you okay with working for an organization that kills women and children?" Making him face that hopefully at least planted a seed of doubt.
are you insane? Every kid knows soldiers defend their country! Those children and women are just collateral damage, that's all..
(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)
o/ hail the government, we fight for socialism.
Show your friend these:
These are some nice vids.
If anything, this seems to be teaching me that perhaps I might take the approach of always appealing to their self-interest, talking about the homlessness/psychological/unemployment problems of vets. Rather than getting into emotional political debates.
If we could just get people to stop joining the army, there'd be no one left to fight all these wars for politicians. Unfortunately, in the absence of a thriving market economy providing plenty of private sector jobs, many poor people have no alternative but to join the military.
@Sukrit: Yeah, I noticed a ramp in recruiting activities as unemployment rose and it dawned on me that the Pentagon definitely has an interest in unemployment, particularly among the young. Ahem, minimum wage laws most affect employment of the young.
As we hear, people join the army and military academies to "defend your country" and all those things......While this is probably 100% true when your country is under attack, it is hardly the case when you "join in" in countries like the U.S. and NATO which have standing armies which are indeed used in limited (?) conflicts.
The reality is that the overwhelming majority of those who join in today, incuding officers at the highest level do join becasue they like the possibility of getting into adventures where the possibility of "legally" killing people is real..... In the 19th century, the military would talk about these things much openly and there was hardly any comment against it. In those times, the Defense Dept. was called the War Dept, and cavalry officers openly commented in social meetimgs that they had during the current year yet "not fleshed their swords....Or that shooting people was the greatest sport. Like Gral Wolsely wrote once, that he specifically became a sharpshooter for a while because: "man shooting is the finest sport of all; there is a certain amount of infatuation about it, the more you kill the more you wish to kill." While talking or writing like that is currently a no-no that is, "not politically correct", the motivation has of course not changed a bit. We certainly have a good exception during WWII on the U.S. side with Patton, a cartoonesque Gral who openly talked about his love for killing, and enjoyed visiting battlefields, the gore and all that. Someone like Vlad Tepes who has been depicted having lunch among 20,000 impaled people around him....
Going by the Nurembeger Trial laws, Patton and "bomber Harris" should have been executed together with the germans, and some of the germans who were, should have not been executed. But that is another story.
If your army friends are Christian you could also use the arguments from Laurence Vance. According to Anthony Gregory:
"Two of Vance's most hard-hitting essays — 'Should a Christian Join the Military?' and 'Christian Killers?' — do not pull any punches in outlining the urgent conflict personally lived by those Christians who are currently carrying out orders for the U.S. military in its aggressive actions. In one profound section in the first of these articles, Vance lays out the case that the U.S. military violates every single Commandment in the Ten Commandments. In the second article, he explores the curious fact that many Christians see less contradiction in the term 'Christian killers' than they might in similarly oxymoronic phrases, such as 'Christian pimps' or 'Christian adulterers.'"
There is also Letter to a Christian Young Man Regarding Joining the Military and if your friends aren't Christian he has written Should Anyone Join the Military?


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The year has just started but BMC already has a national title to celebrate: Julien Tamararcaz of BMC Mountainbike Racing Team rode to a Swiss national cyclocross champion jersey this past weekend in Beromünster. It was his first elite title, putting former BMC Racing Team rider Simon Zahnder into second place.
Julien Tamararcaz likes it wet and dirty. The former world junior runner-up made perfect use of his superior bike handling skills to dethrone multiple national cyclocross champion Christian Heule. His winning time was 1:02:55hrs, edging out Zahnder by 11seconds and Heule by 26 seconds.
It was only a year ago when Julien switched from cyclocross and road cycling to mountainbiking upon becoming member of the new professional BMC Mountainbike Racing Team. The 24-year-old entered the MTB scene with a bang, placing 4th at the Swiss national championship on a wet and muddy technical course.
The cyclocross season is not over yet. Its highlight is waiting for Julien on January 28th when the world's best cyclocross riders battle it out for the rainbow jersey in Koksijde (Belgium). BMC Mountianbike Racing Team will kick off 2012 mid February with its team training camp on the Canary Islands before racing starts in South Africa mid March at the World Cup in Pietermaritzburg.


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The Deutscher Handballbund is the biggest handball federation in the world. German handball clubs have a massive fan base and top matches will pack out even the largest indoor arenas in Germany. The sport's success is largely due to its foothold in many of Germany's smaller towns and cities, such as Grosswallstadt, Gummersbach, Lemgo and Leutershausen, which have each written major chapters in handball history.
The Handball Bundesliga was introduced as the country's top league as early as 1966, although for the first eleven years of its existence it was split into two sections (north and south). From 1977 onwards the league has been operating as a single-section top division and it hasn't looked back since. Eighteen clubs now compete in the league over the course of 34 match days.
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The 20,000-seater Cologne Arena in Cologne is one of the biggest stadiums used for handball. Equally popular are the O2 World in Hamburg, and the SAP Arena in Mannheim, each of which can accommodate approximately 14,000 handball fans – plenty of room for some great matches in a brilliant atmosphere!
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