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Against Our War in Libya
When your country fires 122 of 124 Tomahawk missiles into a country in a single day, and your pilots are doing bombing runs, then your country is leading a war on that other country. That's true even if the French President got his jets there first, and your president only announced it in a radio address from Brazil.
So there are some problems with this.
First: Seriously? A third war in the Muslim world?
Second: Exactly what we're doing isn't clear. Obama has said "Gaddafi must go," while the military says Gaddafi is not on a "targeting list." (Who is?) The U.N. authorized a No-Fly-Zone with the explicit intention of protecting civilians, and achieving a cease-fire. But the rebels in Benghazi are lining up for another attack on Gaddafi's forces. And if this is a No-Fly-Zone why are Americans firing on buildings and Toyotas? Are Libyans… flying those?
Third: How was this decided? It was awfully quick. Michael Cohen, of the American Security Project, points out:
First of all, from everything that is being reported (and Josh Rogin as usual is doing yeoman's work on this front) it appears that the White House only made the decision to go to war in the last several days. Consider that for a second; for weeks the US was resisting the use of force in Libya—and then within what appears to be a 96-hour period we went from opposition to intervention to supportive of intervention to escalation far beyond a no-fly zone to actually going to war. And all of this happened without any national debate, any serious consultation with Congress and any strong statement of objectives and purpose by President Obama.
As [James] Fallows points out [at The Atlantic], the only debate that seemed to happen was the one in the Oval Office… to change the President's mind about the use of force. And it should be noted that the person who seemed to have the most impact on shifting the President's view was the woman he beat in the 2008 Democratic primary, in large measure, because of her misguided support for another military intervention that wasn't properly thought thru.
Obama's decision to commit forces contradicts his statements during the campaign that "The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." Some liberals are pretty pissed about this.
Fourth: Who are these rebels we are fighting for? Are they what The Washington Times describes as "learned" liberals who say, cutely, "We love America to bits" or are they the type of East Libyans who decided to haul off to Iraq for the chance to kill Americans. Probably both. But who knows? We don't, and that's not something we deliberated about before launching this.
Fifth: Even if Obama wants this to take "days not weeks," we can't be sure that it will go that way. If Gaddafi manages to hold out—not unthinkable when there are Libyans that feel loyal to him and threatened by the rebels—the ineffectiveness of the No-Fly Zone and the "humiliation" it risks for Obama/Sarkozy/Cameron will be used as the argument for getting boots on the ground. Suddenly we will be left rebuilding a divided tribal region that pretends to be a single country. Poor King Idris who once led Cyrenaican nationalists during World War II is said to have cried when the British informed him that he must also become Emire of Tripolitania. If the United States follows the Pottery Barn rule and tries to glue Libya back together, we'll also be crying.
Sixth: There are plenty of other revolts happening in the world. Yemen, Bahrain, maybe Morocco. There are plenty of other terrible leaders who kill people. Now that we've intervened in one civil war, it can become a tactic of rebellions to appeal for multi-national-sponsored air support. Exactly how do we plan on distinguishing the just from the unjust? Obama has announced no strategic principle on which he is basing the decision to commit our troops, money, and honor to other people's struggles.
I wouldn't forbid you from taking the same position as Hillary Clinton, Anne-Marie Slaughter, Samantha Power and Paul Wolfowitz. We have freedom here. And maybe Obama will really wrap this up in a few days, and there will be no truly nasty unintended consequences, and only basically better-than-Gaddafi guys will be in power in Libya ever after. And of course, you can believe that our bombs will only fall on people who deserved to be killed by American bombs. That's your faith-based initiative if you want it.
But, if you maybe think this was a bad idea, or at least it is being carried out badly, you are in good company. The group of people who are pissed about our Libyan adventure runs from Dennis Kucinich through Glenn Greenwald and Josh Marshall to George Will, Timothy P. Carney and Rand Paul.
Michael Brendan Dougherty is a contributing editor to /The American Conservative—he and they were both against Iraq too.
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A quibble – attacking buildings is not strictly inappropriate as part of a no fly. We could be attacking anti-air structures to keep the no-fly-enforcing jets from being shot down. But frankly even enforcing a no fly zone like this is crazy. There is literally no guidance on what we're doing in Libya – it's like the lesson taken from Iraq is not "have an exit plan" but "maybe let's try not having an entrance plan, too!"
I think the actual short-term decision-making process as to why this happened is pretty straightforward, if not well-thought-out strategically: when it looked like the rebels were going to manage to overthrow Qaddafi in their initial push, everone got pretty used to the idea — the French it seems even formally recognized them as the government of the country. Then Qaddafi regrouped and the tide turned dramatically; by the time airstrikes started, there were pro-Qaddafi snipers actually inside Benghazi, though they seem to be gone now?
One can see the appeal: if Qaddafi's regime now collapses relatively swiftly, then there already exists a ready-made and genuinely indiginous replacement that seems to have good democratic credentials and would have any number of reasons to be greatful to the West. The model is no doubt the intervention in Bosnia in 1994-5, which, for its many faults, did bring a gruesome war to a swift conclusion and established a lasting peace.
I don't know enough about war to know how likely a positive result is to happen, though I can recognize wishful thinking when I see it. Another potential (less hopeful) model would be NATO's intervention in the Kosovo war of '99, which was supposed to last days but actually took three months, and the fallout from that still hasn't been fully resolved.
One could also point out quite readily that if we were really being evenhanded, we'd be bombing the Saudis for intervening in Bahrain. The least cynical interpretation of the difference would be that governments are best at helping out things that look like governments, and the Libyan rebels managed to make themselves look enough like a government (they have a flag and everything!) to win allies. A somewhat more cynical interpretation is that nobody wants to intervene unless they can produce a desired outcome with a minimum of fuss, and surely there isn't going to be a bombing-from-the-air solution to the Bahraini revolt, so let's just let the King retake control and hope we can lean on him, for freedom. The most cynical/actual interpretation is, ha ha bomb the Saudis? Of course we're not going to bomb the Saudis. Sorry we let you think we were friends with you when you stopped with the terrorism, Qaddafi!
I am so badly informed on Libya that I probably should not even be commenting until I educate myself some more on that particular situation (I WAS REALLY SICK FOR AWHILE), but while I do that, can someone please tell me why (if the answer is anything other than "Oil") the US/world has gotten involved in Libya and not the dozens of other armed conflicts worldwide where governments are killing civilians?
Yeah, I feel like I'm out of my depth here. Perhaps we decided "Hey, FINALLY, now's our chance to get Qaddafi!"?
I honestly feel that at least part of the answer to this is that the current situation has appeared in the last weeks. We suddenly have a situation on the news/diplomatic channels etc.- tied to the protests in Egypt etc which we know that we like- that we can deal with, as opposed to festering conflicts that don't command the attention they might have when new.
Because Libya is in the news. Democratic presidents are like movie stars. They just have to be tall, have good hair, attractive wives, and do whatever the TV producers expect them to.
Because of the number of his own people that Qaddafi has killed. The fear is that if Qaddafi is successful then other leaders will see Egypt and Tunisia not as the way of the future but as what happens if you don't ruthlessly put down a rebellion.
There is a deeply cynical voice inside my head, which I sincerely hope is dead wrong, calling this a dress rehearsal for Iran.
Oh jeez…I sincerely hope you're dead wrong too, DMcK…
Thank you for this.
Ten more years! Ten more years!
Bush's Iraq 2003 Iraq: Coalition of 49 countries, full support of Congress, US troops commanded by American leaders. Outrage!
Obama's Libya, 2011: Coalition of 5 countries, no congressional approval (unconstitutional), US troops under command of foreign entity (UN, also unconstitutional): "I don't really know enough about Libya to pass judgment…"/"What oil?"/Code Pink gets lost on way to White House protest.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the substance, but, you know, other countries have their troops under the command of foreign entities all the time. Often that foreign entity is the US! What makes us special? (Other than "American exceptionalism," which is just a way of saying "we're special.")
You had me till foreign entity/unconstitutional. The Politico forums are that-a-way? >>>
Bush's Iraq 2003 (and 2004,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12…): A stupid fucking idea for a war with zero legitimate justification which was horribly mismanaged in the worst way and has (so far) cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, trillions in direct and indirect costs, squandered our reputation in the world, stretched our military and economy to the breaking point, multiplied our enemies and distracted from any legitimate anti-terrorism or national security efforts.
Obama's Libya 2011: A few days of firing missiles and a some sorties flown as part of a limited and UN approved mission to help stop the immediate slaughter of innocent people by an unhinged maniac.
"Fourth: Who are these rebels we are fighting for?" I don't disagree with this overall piece. But this is bait. Part of the outrage from the international community for intervention (or "war" if you'd like) was Gaddafi's indiscriminate targeting of unarmed civilians (and yes, rebel/civilian hard-to-tell but still).
Actually, that whole paragraph with its "kill Americans" in Iraq extrapolation is wildly dishonest in this argument.
Finally, parallels between this and Iraq are wrong. Sure, it's the same part of the world but the situations are wholly different in so, so many ways. Framing it as being "against Iraq too" is like being against watching movies and driving cars because they both involve sitting down.
The parallel is this: Iraq and Libya are unnecessary wars of choice against nations that did not attack us. Also, yes, they are Muslim nations that have no history of liberal democratic government and many societal handicaps in developing one quickly.
For most people the important part in thinking about this is "Is the president a member of the party to whom I'm more culturally sympathetic?" Unfortunately bombs explode the same way no matter what the commander thinks about school prayer – or whatever.
Sorry, that was a bit bitchy.
"If it were just indiscriminate killing – they would be calling for regime change in the Ivory Coast." There are a lot of people who call for this. And i agree that this is the strongest argument for not getting involved. but, let's just be clear that that this argument about selectively protecting civilians is different than what is stated here about "rebels we are fighting for." Language is important! (as this piece rightly notes in places)
"but yes- people from Libya did volunteer to fight Americans in Iraq." So did people from places we already call our ALLIES. This is by far the weakest argument for not getting involved, a speculative sort of ideological revenge (not entirely different from the people who were saying the tsunami was karma for pearl harbor). It's gross.
"wars of choice against nations that did not attack us." That's damn near ever war we've ever been involved in.
"societal handicaps in developing one quickly." Say whaaaaa?
Yeah. Societies that are tribal in character do not easily become rights-respectin' democracies. That is not to say that people in tribes have less dignity than non-tribal peoples, it is not a slur – just an assertion.
And yeah- my line of thinking condemns "damn near every war we've ever been involved in"
And I'm not sure I buy that we aren't 'fighting for them' – Cameron and Obama have both indicated that Qaddafi must go – ergo we our intervening to help the rebels accomplish their political ends, even if the U.N. resolution narrowly words this as if it were about protecting civilians only.
And I'm not indicating that just because some Libyans volunteered to fight our soldiers in Iraq that we should exact some kind of revenge on them. I'm trying to say that we do not know the people we are (implicitly) fighting for in this civil war, that they may not be naturally or uniformly sympathetic to the rule of law and democracy, or all that better than Qaddafi.
"Societies that are tribal in character do not easily become rights-respectin' democracies." I'm not sure from where proof of this "assertion" comes. It sounds a lot like something proved by a negative (i.e., how the absence of it proves the assertion true.) And "easily?" What does that even mean? You mean how the US "easily" became a "rights respecting democracy?"
"we do not know the people we are (implicitly) fighting for in this civil war," But you seem to imply this should matter.
Yes, it should matter because we are being sold on the idea that this civil war can be easily divided into good and bad guys. Most wars don't align so neatly.
And yes- the assertion about tribal societies is based on the evidence that advanced liberal democracies require wider social trust than is unavailable in tribal societies.
And the "easily" part is aimed at the idea that we can involve ourselves in a civil war and be out "in a matter of days" – again, the world doesn't work this way. I seem to remember predictions about Iraq like '5 weeks, 5 days, 5 months, but not longer than that."
Again with Iraq. I'm not saying we SHOULD have intervened in Libya. But the mere reason we fucked up in Iraq (or Afghanistan for that matter) should not be reason to not intervene in Libya.
@ SF_Sorrow
Iraq: Full support of Congress
Libya: No Congressional approval (unconstitutional)
Uh, that's not how it works. The United States hasn't asked Congress for a declaration of war since World War II in any of the military actions we've taken. The "Full Support of Congress" for military action against Iraq was just as unconstitutional as what you're calling Libya.
That does not make it right though. This seems like a war to me (who knows where it will lead to), and it should be voted on by Congress. Approval by the Arab League just doesn't cut it with me.
As sad as it is, Bush did have more Congressional approval for his shit shows (maybe not technical declarations of War), than Obama has in Libya.
Second- it isn't a no-fly-zone. That's what the UK and France were initially pushing for. What we have ended up with is much broader, and allows for any measures short of occupying troops 'to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas'. That's why we're blowing up Toyotas.
As for Ghaddafi Must Go, his removal isn't an objective of the resolution, but it's one possible and perhaps desired outcome of the action, so it's possible that Obama wants him gone without his name being on a 'targeting list' (which should be listing only threats to the above mentioned civilians).
Oh, honestly. The Lybian situation had reached a point at which we had no choice but to act. If we had stood by and watched as that nutty demagogue massacred thousands of his own people just for standing up to him, while we were in a position to help, the Arab world would never forgive us. It's a shitty situation all around, but so far I believe the Obama administration has done the right thing — first by holding back, then by letting the French and British take the lead, and now by calculated action.
Yemen, Bahrain, and Syria are oranges to Lybia's apple. Security forces brutally crushing protests is horrible, of course, and invites international contempt, but there is nothing to be gained, for us or for the protesters, by sending in squadrons of B-2s.
One hopes, of course, that Qaddafi's position will become untenable as his African mercenaries start deserting and more loyalists defect. He can only last as long as his money does. We will run out of major air-defense targets to bomb within days. And the Europeans are clearly more eager for this fight than we are; someone said on NPR this afternoon that non-American forces flew more sorties today than we did. They're welcome to it.
President Obama must know that he has little to gain politically, and the country nothing to gain economically, by getting into this fight. He's a pragmatist, and he would not have committed to this if he didn't believe it was the right thing to do. And if 2011 does indeed turn out to be the biggest people-power year since 1989, at least we will have been on the right side of history.
* N.B.: Admitting that you read The Washington Times does not aid your argument.
Agree with everything in this. Faced with a variety of not terribly attractive options he appears to me to be walking the line that appears to most pragmatic and logical. Sending the crystal clear message to any further leader in MENA that the only response to an uprising is to slaughter your citizens with wildly unmatched force is diplomatically intenable and morally reprehensible.
The "Bad things are happening everywhere" is tangential and not relavant in my mind to this very bad thing happening right here.
Nice. Now take down our invasion of Grenada.
The reason NATO is intervening in Libya and not Yemen/Bahrain/Oman etc. is because Libya is the only country that has actually graduated to full-on civil war rather than just violent protests (apart from Tunisia and Egypt, who deposed of their dictators without outside help).
I am honestly amazed at the widespread disapproval to this, and the comparisons to Iraq. Iraq was a country that we invaded ourselves, for our own reasons, under the guise of regime change. Libya is a country whose people have taken steps to change their regime themselves and are now asking for our help while they get shot to pieces. They are ASKING for our help! Are we so terrified of the results of Iraq that we now refuse to get our hands dirty ever again?
And, yeah, what was up with your "kill Americans" paragraph? You can't criticise the Iraq War and then criticise the people who fought against it.
Not all the rebels wanted foreign help. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/03/billboard-of-the-day.html
And yes you can criticize the Iraq War and deplore people who fought on the opposite side. I'm against the idea that we always and everywhere must take a side in foreign conflicts. And I am also against euphemisms for bombing people like "get our hands dirty."
And plenty of the rebels did want foreign help.
You say "bombing people" as though we're deliberately targeting civilians, rather than bombing people who are trying to bomb civilians. You have gone straight to semantics, skipping over the point I was making: we shouldn't let the catastrophic fuck-up that was Iraq prevent us from using more legitimate military interventions.
Criticise the lack of Congressional declaration of war, criticise the haste, criticise the lack of foresight. But I honestly don't see how you can believe that this intervention is not the morally right thing to do, when most of the rebels are requesting military support that the West can easily provide.
If I hear the word "dither" one more time…
Oh, and this would actually be your fifth war in a Muslim country, after Pakistan and Yemen. Sixth if you include Somalian pirates.
Depending on how you classify the southern Philippines, where in a little know extension of Operation Enduring Freedom hundreds of US troops and special forces have been participating in military operations.
And that is a critical reason why we don't have funds for the pensions of your beloved Wisconsin public unions. You cannot pursue an Empire abroad and think you will have funds for your own people at home. Think of those Tomahawks that Obama is launching as Teacher's pensions being flushed down the toilet.
We do not have infinite wealth. We need to live within our means, end the foreign occupations that are bleeding our Treasury dry and care for our own people at home first.
Hmm, "beloved?" How about "necessary?"
"Think of those Tomahawks that Obama is launching as Teacher's pensions being flushed down the toilet." I get where you're going and the resources thing is right, but, no, that's is a wild simplification of how things works to the point of stupidity. We've fought wars before without having to cut middle class wages.
Call it stupidity if it makes you feel better, but America spends an exorbitant amount of its resources on foreign imperial adventures.
The numbers are on my side. Check the Pentagon/"Security"/"anti-terrorism" budget sometime. Most of it is unnecessary for a Republic, but required by an Empire. The Empire does not benefit me, nor, I will assume, does it benefit you. It is going to collapse sooner or later, I just pray we can end it and still preserve some semblance of our nation.
Oh I agree. But that is not why teachers are taking pay cuts, not in anything anywhere near directly anyway.
I am creating an army of angel robots who will go around the world disarming dictators and protecting people. The angel robots will kill no one. They will be bullet proof, fire proof, and able to withstand explosives and all kinds of other attacks. My angel robots will take all the guns and bombs away. They will take the knives away. If you pick up a stone to throw at another person, before you can let it go, an angel robot will come and stay your hand. The angel robots will find the mines, the bombs, the nukes, and the bullets, and they will recycle them and make more angel robots. Then the people in charge, and the people who would be in charge, they will have no choice but to get along.
Somebody before me, up above, had a similar thought, but I see that no one reacted, so I will step in and repeat (with an embellishment):
"Do You Like Pina Coladas?"
Do You Like Grenada?
This Is Grenada.
You want to worry about the future today — I have been saying this for years — then you need to worry: not about Iran, not about North Korea… it's Pakistan, and, more importantly, Saudi Arabia.
Those are the two most dangerous places in the world, so I said –
ESPECIALLY Saudi Arabia — what — bass-ackwards primevil medieval place…. sea of righteousness and (for most) frustration). Other counties all over the damn place are just as cruel, but They have the petro — we suck it up — and they only keep churning out trouble.
Alright — it's a rant — won't continue… nothing makes me more furious, not even John Boehner –
Oh and as to that (sorry): Among my friends, we think it's going to all be about Jeb Bush, sooner or later. Maybe the Mayan stuff will be accurate, and we won't have to think about any of it.
This is the same Gaddafi who years ago we tried to kill, but didn't, and then time passed and he was sorta our friend again? "Oh, he's not all that bad and crazy, after all? He sells us stuff"?
But then, he got bad and crazy again, so we're trying to get rid of him, again, except he's not a target? Not in a "formal target sense," actually?
So if we kinda sorta miss him again this time? How many years pass before we bleach out his black hat again? Except it'll probably be one of his kids, so we can just rejigger the whole construct?
And we wonder why people on that side of world can't stand us?
This is why we need to export democracy to the Middle East. Don't you see what great cover a peaceful transition of power every four or eight years provides for policy inertia/schizophrenia!?
On a serious note, this thread is great. Thanks for all the serious thoughts. I find myself feeling a little bit more smug and supportive about the U.S. course of action, after all the waffling by the Arab League over the last 36 or so hours. It really seems like the President didn't cave under pressure and let things happen on the time-scale he believed appropriate.
Still harboring the most minor of fears, for no real reason I can articulate, that this may nudge us toward WWIII….
"For most people the important part in thinking about this is "Is the president a member of the party to whom I'm more culturally sympathetic?"
Nail on head.
I'm sure there's some of that afoot–maybe a lot of it–but I hope that most reasonable people are assessing these situations on their merits. I am a Democrat and have never voted for a Republican for president (or almost anything). That said, I firmly supported the first Gulf War, which seemed one of obvious necessity. It was old-fashioned geopolitics of a sort that had seemed well out of style: One sovereign nation invading another on a specious claim of hegemony. Throw the aggressors out. On to Baghdad, then? No, for the reasons that have borne themselves out since 2003. I opposed the Iraq invasion because the casus belli seemed ridiculously trumped up. Even if there were WMDs, there was an effective plan in place for finding and containing them. I was part of the "give sanctions a chance" crowd, but I was under no illusions: Effective sanctions, tightly applied and enforced, are a vicious form of warfare in themselves, just cheaper in Western blood and treasure. The invasion was folly and its aftermath sadly foreseeable.
Here there's no invasion, and there's already a rebel force opposing the regime, which didn't exist in Iraq. The Libyan situation is not without complications, but it's far better.
As for Afghanistan? Ugh. What a mess. Graveyard of empires indeed. The Taliban had to be deposed, but we needed an Iraq-size occupation and rebuilding effort if we were to have had any chance of long-term success. Alas, we had an Iraq-size occupation going on in Iraq, which was astonishingly stupid and regrettable.
I'm with Abe Sauer on this. I don't love that this went down without at least a prime-time presidential speech laying out the reasons and parameters, but beware of false equivalencies. This is not Iraq. The mission is limited. It would be ideal to see Gadhafi go right away, but the point here is to disable his ability to inflict disproportionate harm on civilians. If he remains in place and moves to bomb the rebels again, he'll get slapped down again. I see this as an operation designed to give the rebels enough time and space to eventually take Tripoli and depose the regime, after which we can negotiate with and assist a new provisional government. There are no angels there, but I prefer the rebels to Gadhafi as a medium- to long-term bet.
Saudi Arabia? You seriously don't understand why we're not being more "active" towards Saudi Arabia? When we're talking about the Muslim world?
Why do you assume it is limited? http://bit.ly/eKXUAc
first: yeah, that sucks
second: the UN authorized "all necessary force" to protect Libyan civilians, not just a no fly zone. The Arab league threw its support just behind a no-fly zone, but the UN authorization didn't limit actions to air defense.
Third: it was decided because Benghazi was about to fall to Qaddafi's tanks. That's really all. If the rebels had reached a stalemate themselves, we probably wouldn't be involved. As it is we decided to take sides in this civil war before there was no other side to take. We may incidentally have saved some lives in Benghazi (remember Qaddafi last week:"we will find you in your homes and in your closets. there will be no mercy." yeah.) As to the legality of the action… it's definitely established practice for presidents to undertake "limited" military actions without direct congressional approval, especially when they are time-sensitive as in this case and when a firm backing under international law has already been established. See also Iraq, Somalia, early Vietnam, Bosnia, Greece in the 50's, Lebanon, Libya in the 80's, the Phillipines in the early 00's, etc. Not saying these went well, but there's the precedent.
Fourth: Might be a problem! We have an unfortunate habit of arming our idealogical enemies, but it is batshit crazy and downright cruel to condemn the people of an entire country because of the actions of a small subset of their religious fringe. The Libyan war/revolution (we'll see who wins) started out as legitimately peaceful pro-democracy protests and turned violent after the Libyan government sent mercenaries with live ammunition into the streets to shoot the protesters. This is not in the same league as arming mujahadeen in Afghanistan, and your attempt to lump together the conflicts is simplistic and oddly right-wing for someone arguing from what appears to be the left.
Fifth: Ok, agreed here. We don't know where this is going and there is a solid chance that we will be there longer than we want. Worst case scenario: we end up supporting the rebels just enough to prolong the civil war and ultimately cause more civilian casualties than an abrupt Qaddafi victory would have caused anyways. I do have to call bullshit on your slippery-slope "this will lead to boots on the ground" argument, just out of rhetorical strategy, as slippery-slope arguments are inherently weak. We'll see, though.
Sixth: we did this because we could. We had resources in the area, support from neighboring countries (the arab league), a UN authorization, and militarily competent allies willing to take primary diplomatic responsibility. We don't have any of these anywhere else. The choice is not between intervening in Libya and intervening in Yemen. It's between intervening in Libya and not intervening in Libya. If we wanted to make the most of our money we'd spend the $50 million we just blew up with those Tomahawks and buy a bunch of mosquito netting for sub-saharan Africa. Unfortunately that's not how things work. Money does not flow from defense to foreign aid because we decline to blow things up.
I think we did what we really thought would save the most civilian lives in Libya. Maybe we were wrong! But I do think that after decades of rhetorical support for democracy around the world we have some obligation to stand up for pro-democracy movements in autocratic countries. We certainly don't do it everywhere (see Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it when the opportunity presents itself. Some of the arguments in this post, especially the "who are these shifty rebels anyways, because they look like terrorists. just sayin'" line of reasoning, seem unfair to me. I see where you're coming from (frankly, we've been burned before), but I think the reasoning there is basically callous. All right. this is the longest comment in the world. peace (ha!).


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Recipe Web Sites???
- j
- Joan Winston Oct 27, 2000 03:35 PM
Does anybody know a good site for recipes? I know about epicurious.
Go to www.finecooking.com and www.cooksillustrated.com. Also, the magazines are great!
Don't forget the much maligned TV Food Network's web site. That's http://www.foodtv.com. Click on the Recipes & Menu search link. They claim to have over 13,000 recipes online. I was thinking of having scallops the other day and was looking for a new way to fix them. So I entered scallops as a search argument and it came back with 121 different ideas. Just try to ignore the banner hyping Bobby Flay's new sauces. The man has no shame.
Everyone loves to hate Martha. But I love alot of the recipes she posts online on marthastewart.com they are hidden in the daily television section.
The recipes are eclectic and you guessed it often time consuming and include ingedients that are expensive and hard to find. She even gets famous chefs to share their "secrets" ahem.
I don't even venture into the complex of commerce that is the rest of the site.
Or try a really large recipe archive: SOAR (Searchable Online Archive of Recipes), which has over 70,000 recipes posted by readers. soar/berkeley.edu/recipes/
Deb H.
I've gotta say, I'm really surprised that no one else mentioned my two favorites besides epicurious.com:
-- Foodandwine.com (from the magazine). Based on professional chef's recipes and tested. Wonderful ideas, often with very specific wine pairings.
-- allrecipes.com. Based on user contributions, not tested, but extremely broad in focus. Like epicurious, allows user feedback which can be quite helpful in deciding which of the 15 carrot cake recipes to choose, for example.
I like Recipecenter.com. It has a big collection -- they claim 100,000. It has good advanced search features and you can adjust the yield on any recipe, i.e. from 6 servings to 2 servings.
I also like the various food departments at ivillage.com. They feature lots of easy time-saving recipies.
For foreign and regional American recipes I like Kitchen Link.
Link: http://www.kitchenlink.com/
Image: http://www.kitchenlink.com/
Go to Arthur Schwartz's site www.thefoodmaven.com and check out not only his recipes with their *delightful* headnotes in The Maven's Diary section of the site, but see also his "links" to other good food websites. He just wrote Naples at Table and hosts the WOR show "Food Talk". He's also good for seasonal dishes as he'll post recipes in the diary appropriate for impending holidays. I also like the fact that he doesn't have 10,000 recipes, it's just more manageable than some of those huge sites.
Have fun!
The link below takes you directly to The Maven's Diary part of his site, and it's what I keep bookmarked on my computer, as he is continually adding to this section.
I really enjoy the black walnut site, Hammons. All their recipes include black walnuts, and some recipes have other nuts in them as well. They offer others to post their own favorite walnut recipes as well.

subset: commoncrawl


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by Daniel Moody, President, DAMA Melbourne, Australia
How Healthy is Your Chapter?
There are currently thirty-two DAMA chapters around the world. They range in health from "survival" (Will anyone turn up to this month's meeting?) to "peak fitness", where the member base is growing and meetings are enthusiastically attended. The reasons for these differences in health are complex, but there are some critical factors which explain why some groups thrive and prosper and others are on the verge of extinction.
This is the first in a series of three articles on how to improve the health of your DAMA chapter:
Part 1: Measuring the Health of Your Chapter - The Balanced Scorecard
The Balanced Scorecard is a performance measurement system developed by Robert Kaplan and David Norton from the Harvard Business School (Kaplan, Robert S. and Norton, David P. "The Balanced Scorecard-Measures That Drive Performance", Harvard Business Review, January-February, 1992). This revolutionized the practice of performance measurement in the business world by expanding its focus from purely financial measures to all areas of business operations. Traditional performance management systems focus on financial measures like return on investment and earnings per share. However these give a very one-dimensional view of performance. They also represent an backward looking perspective- they measure past successes (or failures) but say little about what might happen in the future (which is usually very different to projections of the past).
The Balanced Scorecard allows managers to see the performance of the business from four different but complementary perspectives:
A limited number of indicators (3-5) are identified for each perspective, to keep it as simple as possible. By combining all these perspectives into a single report, the balanced scorecard gives managers a fast but comprehensive view of the "health" of the business.
The DAMA Balanced Scorecard
Running a DAMA chapter is like running a business. It has customers (its membership), finances (membership revenue and administrative expenses), staff (committee members) and business operations (running meetings, conferences etc.). An important difference of course is that a DAMA chapter is a non-profit organization-its objective is not to make money but to promote the discipline of data management and the professional development of its members. Like any business, performance measurement is an essential part of effective management and achievement of business strategies.
A suggested balanced scorecard for a DAMA chapter is shown in Figure 1 below, consisting of 20 key health indicators. The most critical measures are marked by stars (*) and are called vital signs. These are the "life or death" measures of chapter health.
Figure 1. The DAMA "Balanced Scorecard"
Even though a DAMA chapter is a non-profit organization, having a healthy bank balance is a important health indicator-it reflects the size of membership and success of revenue generating events. A healthy bank balance is also a key enabler for chapter operations-it determines the chapter's ability to put on events and attract high-profile speakers. The following financial measures are proposed as part of the scorecard:
This is the most important quadrant of all, because it measures the chapter's success in satisfying its customers. The standard measures used for this quadrant in the business world are number of repeat customers, number of new customers, market share and satisfaction with services provided. The following measures are proposed for this quadrant:
This quadrant measures the efficiency and effectiveness of chapter operations. The key output of a DAMA chapter is its annual program of events-this includes regular meetings, seminars, "DAMA days", workshops and training courses. Measures of operational efficiency used in the business world relate to either the timeliness, quantity and quality of services delivered. The following measures are proposed for this quadrant:
Innovation and organizational learning are key determinants of long term success and competitiveness of any organization. Similarly, to ensure long term survival and to be able to attract new members, a DAMA chapter needs to continually improve its processes and try new things. Many groups stick to the same formula for years, which results in boredom and stagnation. This leads to reduced membership levels and attendance at events, and ultimately to the demise of the group. The measures proposed for this quadrant are:
How to Use the Scorecard
The first thing to do is to start collecting the data needed to produce the scorecard on a regular basis. It is quite surprising for a professional association in the area of data management, that so few chapters routinely collect and use data to help manage their operations. To start with, you should:
To use the scorecard effectively, you need to monitor the values of the performance indicators on a regular basis. The best way to do this is to produce a quarterly report of the measures defined in the scorecard, and hold a committee meeting to review the scorecard. Most of the indicators are relevant to a particular committee position-for example, membership indicators are the responsibility of the Secretary (or VP-Membership Services), while financial indicators are the responsibility of the Treasurer (or VP-Financial Services). If a problem is found with one of the indicators, the committee member responsible needs to take corrective action.
It is important to compare scorecard data from quarter to quarter and year to year and look at variances. This way you can see whether attendances at events are improving or declining, your membership is increasing or decreasing and if your members are satisfied or unsatisfied. You should aim to improve performance on all indicators every year-this requires continuous improvement and innovation, and provides a challenge for every committee member.
The information defined in the DAMA scorecard is essential for the efficient and effective operation of a DAMA chapter, or indeed any professional association. Remember the old saying: "if you can't measure it, you can't manage it". If you are serious about improving the health of your chapter, start using the scorecard as your primary management tool. Monitoring these health indicators is also about "practicing what we preach". Data managers are constantly telling other people about the importance of data as a management resource-if it is such an important resource, why aren't you using it to manage your chapter?
Thanks to Amanda McKinlay (Secretary, DAMA Melbourne) for her ideas and suggestions for this article. Please send your comments or questions to Daniel at: email@example.com.
Part 2: Improving The Health Of Your Chapter
by Daniel Moody, President, DAMA Melbourne
Part 1 in this series looked at how to measure the state of health of your DAMA chapter using a balanced set of measures—the DAMA Balanced Scorecard. The DAMA Balanced Scorecard allows you to see the performance of your chapter from four different but complementary perspectives:
This second article looks at strategies you can use to improve the health of your chapter. Eight strategies are described, together with their major impacts on scorecard indicators.
Strategy 1: Mix It Up!
An important part of maintaining interest and enthusiasm in a chapter and attracting new members is to experiment with different event formats and different topics. Many groups stick to the same format for years, resulting in boredom and stagnation. For example, if you normally have daytime meetings, try a dinner meeting. If you normally have evening meetings, try a daytime session. If you normally have formal presentations at meetings, try a workshop format.
Last year we held a half day workshop on Scenario Planning run by a facilitator with a non data management background. The session involved participants to imagine possible future scenarios and how they would respond to them. This was one of the most popular sessions of the year because it got people involved. Earlier this year we featured a one day seminar on creating and delivering presentations, featuring one of Australia's most well-known public speakers. While this is not specifically a data management skill, it is something you must be able to do well to be successful to communicate data management concepts to senior management. This resulted in the highest satisfaction rating for any session we have ever run!
Effect On Scorecard Indicators
Strategy 2: Hold A Revenue Generating Event
As discussed in the first article, it is essential to have a healthy bank balance to put on major events and attract high profile speakers. Membership fees are sufficient to cover the basic operating costs of a chapter (mailing costs, printing costs etc.) but are generally not enough to generate any significant capital. As a result, most DAMA chapters operate on a "break even" basis. The best way to generate sufficient revenue is to run one or two fee paying events each year featuring high profile speakers.
A good idea is to run the event in conjunction with a special offer to attract new members. This year we ran a fee paying event with a discount for members equivalent to the cost of a year's membership—this effectively allowed non-members to join for free, and resulted about twenty new members. Corporate sponsors to minimise upfront and risk!!
Effect On Scorecard Indicators
Strategy 3: Get Someone Else To Do Your Dirty Work!
A tedious but essential part of running a DAMA chapter are the administrative tasks needed to maintain your membership and run meetings—things like copying, mailing, processing membership applications and invoicing. These are usually the tasks that are done worst in most DAMA chapters because committee members don't have the time or the interest to do them properly.
A good way to improve the professionalism of your DAMA chapter and relieve committee members of such boring and time-consuming work is to outsource your administrative functions. This can drastically improve the efficiency of internal processes, improve the level of service to members as well as freeing up committee members for more creative pursuits. Some of the improvements that can result are:
Strategy 4: Produce An Annual Calendar Of Events
A good way to get your chapter running more efficiently is to organise the entire year's program at the start of the year and send out a "calendar of events" to members. You then only need to send out one page reminders three weeks or so before each meeting. While this is a lot of work to start with, it saves time in the long run by avoiding last minute crises as a result of JIT ("just in time") meeting planning later in the year. It also improves the professionalism of the chapter as perceived by members, and they can write the dates of the meetings they are interested in their diaries well in advance. Finally, the calendar is a great marketing tool for sending to potential new members.
Strategy 5: Get Some Feedback From Members
Most DAMA chapters operate on the basis of very little "hard" information about what their members want—as a result, they operate based on conjecture or anecdotal evidence about what members might be interested in or (more often) what the committee members are interested in. As in running a business, it is important to get regular feedback from your customers about what they like and what they don't like.
The two most important sources of information from members are:
Strategy 6: Get The Committee Working
One of the most important factors in the health of any DAMA chapter are the committee members themselves, in terms of their enthusiasm, energy and ideas.
Plan. It is important to hold a planning session at the start of each year, where each committee member sets out their goals for the year. This can be used to develop a "Chapter Action Plan" defining deliverables, dates and responsibilities for the year. You should hold regular committee meetings (e.g. quarterly) to review progress in achieving these goals.
Share the Work. It is also important to share the workload around. The biggest task in any DAMA chapters is organising meetings. The traditional approach is for one person to arrange all meetings, which means an inordinate amount of work for one person. A more effective method is to take turns arranging meetings—that is, each committee member is the "producer" for one meeting each year. It also means that people can afford to put more effort into organizing their event.
Avoid Burnout. Another important issue in maintaining energy and enthusiasm in the committee is to encourage new people to join the committee. Running a DAMA chapter is a demanding job, especially when you have a full-time job to do at the same time. To avoid burn-out and stagnation and encourage new ideas, you need to regularly turn over your committee members.
Strategy 7: Form Alliances with Other Professional Associations
An important part of increasing attendance at meetings and encouraging growth in membership is to advertise outside your existing membership list. An excellent way of doing this is to look for similar organizations (professional associations) who would be interested in jointly promoting events.
In Melbourne, we have run joint events with the Australian Computer Society (ACS), the DB2 Users Group (DUGS) and the Australian Institute of Information Management (AIIM). We now jointly promote all of our meetings through the Australian Computer Society (who have about 15,000 members) and give their members a discount on attendance to all of our events. As a result, we have broken all meeting attendance records this year.
Strategy 8: Make It Fun!
DAMA meetings should not be all work and no play. It is important to create a relaxed atmosphere, and plenty of opportunities for social interaction and networking among members. According to Des Walker (President of the Canberra Chapter), "the real meeting starts when the presentation is over".
We provide beer, wine and soft drinks following most meetings, and offer a door prize for members—usually a dinner for two. While this might get expensive if you pay for it out of member funds, we ask local consulting firms to sponsor meetings and supply drinks and refreshments as part of this—this saves on the cost of the venue as well. Earlier this year, we featured an overseas speaker and followed the presentation with a wine and cheese tasting, featuring local Victorian produce. This year, for the first time, we are holding a Christmas Party.
This article has outlined eight strategies you can use to inject new life into your chapter. The matrix below summarises the effect of the strategies described on the health indicators defined in the DAMA Balanced Scorecard (/ indicates a positive effect while x indicates a negative effect). This matrix can be used as a planning tool for improving the health of your chapter—for example, if your membership numbers are down, look at the strategies which help increase membership numbers.
Points to note:
Send your comments or questions to Daniel at: firstname.lastname@example.com. Thanks to Des Walker (President, DAMA Canberra) for his ideas and suggestions on this article.


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Membership of the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education is open to all higher education institutions, related organisations and agencies, and is by annual or three-yearly subscription.
Institutional membership demonstrates a clear commitment to developing leadership and management capabilities at all levels. The heart of our services and benefits is the continuation and enhancement of our contribution to, and investment in, the higher education sector.
Investing in the sector
We have continued to make a substantial investment into UK higher education in the last twelve months, with a significant part exclusively for our members' benefit, and are investing further for 2014-15:
The Aurora initiative for early career women leaders launched in 2013-14 attracted over 500 participants to its first cohort; in 2014-15, we will retain the £1000 price for members (although we will increase the price for non-members), and will be putting in place additional support for role models and champions to help embed this important initiative further
Increased savings of up to 10% for 2014-15 via a fixed membership subscription rate for a three year commitment. This option was introduced at the start of the 2011-12 membership year – offering members an opportunity to make savings on the total cost of membership, and we are pleased to continue to offer this considerable discount. Around one third of institutions have signed up – and they are fairly evenly spread across the range of membership bands. Three year members will not of course be affected by any subscription changes during their three year membership.
Standard membership benefits
In addition to the membership investments and services outlined above, all members benefit from the following standard benefits:
If you want to know more about Leadership Foundation Membership and the benefits for you and your institution, contact:
Director, Membership and Organisational Development
Dr Lesly Huxley joined the Leadership Foundation at its inception in 2004 on a part-time secondment from the University of Bristol. She was appointed full-time Director of Membership and Organisational Development in 2014. She is responsible for ensuring the delivery of high quality membership benefits and services and managing the Leadership Foundation's network of regional coordinators across England. She leads key investment activities to help deliver the next phase of the modernisation and efficiency agendas led by Professor Sir Ian Diamond, has oversight of the LF's relationship with professional bodies and networks and, as Editor, guides direction of the LF's magazine ENGAGE.
Lesly has nearly 30 years' experience in research, management and leadership roles in higher education in the UK and Europe with a particular focus on change and OD, and development and support of research. Her university roles have spanned staff development, HR and ICT. She taught on the innovative Masters in Education, Technology and Society at the University of Bristol where she also held roles as Research Director and then Director of the Institute for Learning and Research Technology (ILRT).
She has published and presented widely in both scholarly and professional contexts and has co-authored a number of national reports on OD and digital research. She has a first degree and post-graduate qualifications in modern languages, a doctorate in education from the University of Bristol and is a Fellow of the AUA, CIPD and RSA. She is also a Senior Visiting Research Fellow at King's College London.
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Related quotes
"People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how great love is, but that's bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain."
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"If ever there is tomorrow when we're not together.. there is something you must always remember. you are braver than you believe, stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think. but the most important thing is, even if we're apart.. i'll always be with you."
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One day, I'll see each of these places.
I've devoted myself to putting together this bucket list of places I will visit in the future. Each day will have a theme of one place in particular. It will start with one post of a particular place and a brief commentary of my own regarding my wish to visit that place, and then there will be various pictures of that place reblogged or shared from Flickr. 366 days this year because it's a leap year; 366 places. A link to previous days and their initial posts is below. I do not take credit for any of the pictures used; they will all be sourced. For questions about my main or other blogs, please send me a message.
Leave a message in my ask box telling me your dream. I'd love to know.(:
Carpe diem.
Day 96: Pitcairn Island.
I'm sure you were asked as a kid, "if you were stranded on a deserted island, who/what would you bring?" What did you imagine when you thought of this island? A tiny little speck of land, just big enough to be able to stretch without getting wet? Lord of the Flies? Well, I'd imagine an island just about the size of Pitcairn - and as isolated too. It takes a ten-day voyage on a ship to even get to the island. Most islands today are commercial; they're used for resorts. Not Pitcairn. It remains untouched. So where's your deserted island now?
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Did you know? The smallest island with country status is Pitcairn in Polynesia, at just 1.75 square miles.
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Now this is a deserted island! :) Beautiful.
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Help Us Care for a Bucks County Icon
An entrance is a first impression…
We are restoring the beautiful Victorian barn we call home. Our goal is to welcome you with a beautiful new entryway—a shelter for all your creative endeavors.
Help us make this project a reality this summer! click here to care for this historic Bucks County building.
We have obtained a grant from the Bucks County Visitors Bureau to begin. Our contractor and plans are in place… Now it is time to raise the rest of the funds and build the entryway!
This is where you can help!
We need to raise an additional $8,500 to cover such big-ticket items as windows, sash, surround and weather cover that will make the entrance secure for our students, performers, crafts and supplies.
Your support of our project will be far-reaching. You will help ensure the longevity of our art center, as this welcoming entryway will remain here for many years to come. But this goes far beyond the construction of a new entrance. Your generosity also gives more of our neighbors opportunities for creative expression, because your support will ensure that our workshop, camp and event fees remain low. In helping us, you also bring job opportunities to regional artists and artisans.
Every dollar raised will go toward the funding of the new entryway.
Donate to the campaign and see the perks offered to show our appreciation of your funding gift!


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Danville- Chittick Family Eye Care
1104 North Vermilion Street
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For eye emergencies, call (217) 442-2631 to reach the doctor on call.
From I-74, take Gilbert Street-North to Fairchild Street. Turn right to Vermilion Street. Turn left. Office is located on the left, across from Central Christian Church on the corner of English and Vermilion.


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Legal Seafoods- So ever poor
- aadesmd Jan 8, 2007 04:33 AM
I have to admit, Legal has been my favorite restaurant for seafood since the first small place run by George Berkowitz opened its doors in Inman Square. In the early 70's, we used to go almost weekly. How tragic that it has now failed me more often than satisfied me.
Last two visits- the first in the Copley Place location. Oysters great as usual. The fried calamari sat in oil, and cold. So far ok, until a waitress off duty sat two seats away from me and my wife. I had to hear about the "deuce that f...ed" her over with a lousy tip. The waitrons on duty then started to congregate, each with a litany of complaints, obscenities and graphic descriptions of customers that they waited on. We paid, left 15%, and did not have the rest of our meal.
Second meal, Peabody location, much worse.
Qysters again awesome. Tuna sashii awful. with a liquid smoke taste that was inedible. Sent back. Beer good and cold. Famous mojito lim[, watery, with old mint and rotting sugar cane. We drank them.
My 78 yr old mother had the grilled fish combo. Waitress informed her that she could not choose the seafood selection. OK said she. Fish overcooked, mashed potatoes like school paste. Kept it.
This used to be the only place to get bluefish. No more. Off taste, way overcooked, and the mustard sauce missing.
My wifes 46.95 baked stuffed lobster. Edible, but not much more. The meat in the claws so overcooked that they had fused with the shell. The dressing was cold near the back of the lobster. Drawn butter never arrived.
Fried clams cold. Were they warm, I think that they would have been good.
Now for the climax- how hard is it to make an Irish Coffee? My mother still remembers them at the Buena Vista in SF, and asked for one. It came with no whipped cream. "No problem" said our waitress, and proceeded to bring out a can of whipped topping, shake it up, and put the last several molecules left on the coffee. Shards of cream went on the table. Well, at least we got the cream. But the taste of the coffee- it was salty. The bartender had dipped the rim in salt. "Happens", said our waitress. They are next to each other, apparently.
My 7 year old wants the same ice cream that the folks at the next table got. Time passes. Restaurant seems to be emptying. "No ice cream. It all melted" We got the check and paid, 15%, and left, never, after 36 years and hundreds of meals, ever to return again.
Too bad. They have great oysters and a killer wine list that is remarkably affordable.
If George could have only seen what was going on in his namesake restaurant. Maybe Roger cares, but who would know. Posted on chains board as well
posted by aadesmd 2 minutes ago
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We had a disappointing experience at the Legal in the Prudential Center on Saturday. It was actually our first visit to a Legal, after all the years of hearing about it and thinking we should try it, but of course reading the cautionary tales on this board. But we were at the Pru with a friend who was visiting from Toronto, it was lunchtime, and we thought, what the heck, we ought to have at least one Legal Seafood experience.
And we will have only one. It was not terrible, but there are so many other good restaurants here that we have no reason to go back and get mediocre food.
Sorry to hear of the bad experience. I hope that you've conveyed this to Roger Berkowitz.
As concierge, we send guests to Legal. No complaints so far. But our favorites in the area are Skipjack's and Atlantic Fish Co. We get good reviews for these. SJ's has a professional wait-staff that makes a big difference. And my last visit to Legal--Park Sq---was decent food presented by a well-meaning, and obviously amature wait-staff.
Folks, please feel free to share your thoughts on your experiences at LOCAL outposts of the Legal seafoods chain, but for general comments on the menu or chain in general, please use the Chains board. Thanks.
Sorry to hear. we eat at the Legal in Chestnut HIll and Route 9 in Framingham very frequently and have never, ever had a bd meal or a bad dish. Also, we are warmly greeted and get great service. Maybe these two branches are an exception. We were there friday and had delicious oysters, the mixed greens with tomato balsamic an crumbled blue cheese was fresh and very tasty as usual, Fish and chips and sole with capers and lemon excellent. You should communicate to the managment.
re: emilief
i had the worst service of my life at the chestnut hill legal's. i should have known better than to go in when i passed by the large group of the waitstaff gaggling (loudly)outside smoking cigarettes. amateur service with boring food. oysters there are good, but how do you screw that up?
one good thing about legal's though is that they have excellent prices for their wines. they have so many restaurants to supply that they can buy wine in bulk so even with a mark-up it's a great deal for the customers.
I personally have only been to Legal's once and I loved the food. Maybe I am nuts...lol. I went to the one in Kendall Square and I ordered fried seafood platter. I would go more often but my budget does not allow.
Have not had a memorable meal (in the positive sense) in any Boston downtown Legal. Usually its cold, or overcooked or some other bad stuff.
The only time i have found the food at least edible was at Logan Airport or Reagan Airport. quick bowl of chowdah, sorta sets the tummy right before a flight.
I've never had any issues with the one at the South Shore Plaza in Braintree.
I've never had an issue with the one downtown either.
Nor at the one in Chestnut Hill.
Maybe it's those particular locations that seem to be the issue?
re: emilief
That does not necessarily indicate that they are doing the food right. As H. L. Mencken said, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
That said, though, I must say that they did a few things right: the room was comfortable, the service was good, and they didn't mind us feeding our 6-month-old in the dining room. If only the food weren't mediocre . . .
re: emilief
Hm, Linden Street in Wellesley would put it pretty close to Captain Marden's.
I have never had a problem at the Framingham location or chestnut hill. Burlington is often too crowded
Seven of us (4 adults, 3 kids) went to the Legals in the North Shore Mall in Peabody last Friday. The food, service and attitude were great! Perfectly cooked Calamari, crab cakes, baked stuffed shrimp etc. Even the hostess went out of her way to accomodate us. We have had somewhat lackluster experiences at Legals before but this one was firing on all cylinders at least that night. Best crab cakes my 10 year old had ever had and he is a true expert, believe me. Not a cheap night but we had a blast.
In my experience the Pru location has the worst food and service. I was told it was a "training" location, so that may account for it. The service has sometimes been unacceptably bad. Was once told they "don't have" red tabasco sauce and waitress refused to even ask about it. The manager found some though. heh heh. Food there is inconsistant -- can be terrific and can be sent back.
IMO Skipjacks is at the bottom of my list. Our experiences there have been so bad that we'll not go back. And we work 300 feet away.
I alway eat at the bar and I've pretty much always been happy with the Pru, Quincy Market, and Kendall Square locations (don't like the Route 9 place at all).
I've eaten at the Burlington location at least 6-8 times in the past 2 years and have been disappointed consistently. The food is mediocre at best, service is perfunctory and the place is loud beyond comfort.
We ate at the Legal in Terminal C at Logan on the way down to Texas at Christmas. Sat at the bar, had a lobster roll and my travelling companion had the caesar salad and the smoked salmon sandwich. Lobster roll was delicious and loaded with meat, french fries were tasty. The caesar salad was OK--it was served with anchovies, but needed a squeeze of lemon or something to give it a little more bite. The smoked salmon sandwich was ill-conceived. The beautiful lox gets lost in the lettuce, tomato, bread etc. Still, to be able to eat food of this quality at an airport is something to be grateful for.
i go to the park square and kendall locations occasionally. have basically narrowed my ordering to the oysters and the bluefish pate. plus they have great alsatian white wines, very reasonably priced, and i only sit at the bar.
went right before christmas, the pate was horrible. tasted like cream cheese soaked in wine, and the portion was tiny. neither of us had more than a bite. the bartender heard us complaining to each other, and said, "oh, gee, that's too bad." he didn't remove the plate, or take it off the bill.
so now i'd only go for oysters, and would much rather go to neptune for those.
We had the Crispy Thai Squid and some oysters at the Peabody Legals along with a broiled haddock and pan seared tuna - all excellent and well served by pro staff. Sorry to hear so many inconsistent reports
I used to work at LSF back several years ago and depending on the location (ie the managers who are at that location as well as the staff) it can vary from very good to very bad. I actually got so upset at my managers and co-workers several years ago that I walked out, I'm not the type to ditch a job but they were horrible. It was the Charles Square location down by Harvard.
The Copley store is known throughout the chain as a bad location. Apparently Park and the Aquarium are supposed to be nice. I've enjoyed the Kendall location every time I'v ebeen there as I'm an MIT student.
I also have many friends and family who have had HORRIBLE experiences. When I heard their dining experiences, I couldn't explain the inexecusable service, similar to the original posting.
If anyone really does intend on going, I would suggest the double stuffed shrimp, the crab dip, for a non-alcoholic drink an arnold palmer, and bananas foster for dessert.
re: hugglyj
The most illuminating post so far. Sounds like they have a hard time with consistency both across and within locations. Which would account for the wildly divergent opinions/experiences.
I am a legal seafood lover. I am particularly excited about the rumor that they are opening a restaurant in Wellesley on Linden street where there are new buildings going up. Between that, Vela (the new Italian) and Alta Strada (where Figs used to be- opening soon) Wellesley is becoming a dining destination.
re: kallis33
that's where i had the single worst restaurant experience of my three decades of living in boston and when i vowed to never spend a dime at legal's ever again.
re: kallis33
I used to like this one - we live in walking distance and it was a reliable spot to bring out of town guests. However, last year after the last three visits, we are no longer fans. Once we sat in the bar to have dinner and watch a game while a young woman proceeded to get more inebriated, swearing and yelling at the opposing team. It was tolerated (she was told to quiet down a couple of times) because the girl was an off-hours employee. The fried clams were also over-cooked, though they did replace them with a new batch. The second time the lobsters were overcooked. The last time, they confused three orders out of a table of six, forgot two of the components of the corrected lobster bake, and insisted to me that my split and grilled lobster was the baked-stuffed I had ordered ("no, that's the baked stuffed", "uh, there's no stuffing"), until another waitress came over and agreed it was a mistake. So they might not be terrible (we've had some good meals), but I'm not paying for inconsistency.
re: Rubee
I have not been in about three months, is it possible things have gone significantly downhill in that time? My mother, who lives out of state, loves that place and I take her every time she visits. Montana, where she lives, is not exactly a seafood mecca. Especially for clams and lobster. I must admit a great fondness for their chowder.
re: kallis33
This was early last year, so I admit I haven't been recently. We have family who visit from Texas and Arizona, so that was one their must-do's when they came to Boston, which made the last visit with them especially disappointing. I guess I can't rule out another try, but it can be an expensive meal to take a chance. I do like some of the dishes (the bluefish pate, butterfish with seaweed salad, the spicy fish and chips, classic lobster and steamers), and have never had a complaint about the freshness of the seafood. Also, the last few pre-concert meals at LTK last summer were consistently good.
re: Rubee
So, because of some recent positives on this thread, I decided to give it another try recently when we had family visiting from Austin. No wait at about 7:30 on a Friday night (the Long Wharf location) . Our server (Josh I think) was excellent - on top of everything. And all our meals were very good. Two had classic surf and turfs - one filet with baked stuffed shrimp, one with lobster. Everything was cooked perfectly. I had the special of Dover Sole - expertly done, and filleted at the table. So thumbs-up on this latest visit!
Legals is terrible! The food at LTK's is the worst! My husband and I have gone several occasions to see what it was all about. It was nothing like what was written in the Globe. State of the art? Hardly! But you don't go to a restaurant for that, you go for the food.
Terrible food! Terrible service! Don't buy into the hype!
re: surferbettygal
What is so terrible at LTK?? Stick with the fresh grilled fish w/ 2 sides and choice of sauce and its all good.
There are surprisingly few places to get good, fresh, simple seafood in the area. Therefore, I previously did not mind paying Legal's high prices. However the service has gone downhill in general, and the last few meals I had there were terrible (overcooked fish, veggies drowned in butter, etc). The Prudential Center location is particularly horrible. The location in Cambridge is (marginally) better, but not good enough to get my $$. About a year ago, we decided that Legal's was voted off the island. I am not ready to give it another try yet.
This is a very local post and I confess pristine shellfish is my addiction. Little Q in Quincy has excellent lobster and/or shrimp in broth. Burke's seafood, also in Quincy has excellent lobsters steamed to go. Well worth any detour. Rocky Neck Fish Co. in East Milton has Nantucket scallops, which are worth every penny of their high price. The season is almost over...
Just so you know. the scallops are $29.95 a pound, so don't be bashful if you ask them to count them out - everyone else does - and it is worth having less to experience the best!!!
I was at the Prudential location this past Saturday 1/27. We came into the city from Western Mass, and arrived at the restaurant late.. My wife and I were straving.. We ordered lots of food, and everything came out just the way we wanted it; except for our filet, we asked for it well done and it came out medium rare. I did not send it back because I knew it was closing time. Service was excellent, friendly, attentive. We were the last guests to leave the restaurant that night, and the server was not rushing us, although I felt bad keeping him there. He recommended we check out Top of the hub for some late night drinks and jazz music, which we did. We truly had a great experience. I guess it could be hit or miss, but this was just one of the highlights of our weekend trip that we won't forget..
well i've yet to go bad at legal. i've had two excellent meals at harvard square and prudential, and one OK meal at the airport. i have tended to order simple dishes highlighting what i hope to be fresh fish. i figure, in that case, that there are only two ways they screw up: serve fish that isn't fresh or overcook it. so far they have done neither.
We love Legal and it is our go- to place for a quick dinner at the bar. Unfortunately, this past Saturday the Legal in Framingham on Route 9 had an 1 1/2 hour wait at 5:30! The bar was packed. Since Chestnut Hill is always packed by 6, we just gave up for that night.
legal can be very inconsistent and it really just depends which one you go to. I am originally from NJ but go to school in boston and have definitely noticed a difference in service and quality between LSF in both states. I find the one in NJ to sometimes be a bit better, although i have had a few very good meals there and a few not so good meals there. Its not the best fish ive ever had (I prefer Atlantic Fish), but for something fast, its not the worst!
Awesome oysters! We went recently to Burlington, yes it's loud but hey, you're in a mall! we had an excellent waitress, I got a great stuffed trout special (with a shrimp/cornbread stuffing) with blood orange hollandaise - we had a great meal - and did I say the oysters were excellent. (PEI and Wellfleet) yummmmy!!!! very fresh.
Yes I have had the wood grilled assoment a few times and the fish is always way over cooked.. I don't order that anymore, because I truly don't enjoy overcooked dry fish..
I agree that it depends which location you go to. In the past month, i've been to the Prudential Legals twice, and both times were a disappointment. The food was sloppy, luke warm and my salad had no bacon. The waitstaff was huddled around, laughing and being unproductive and distracting. It was all very unprofessional. In stark contrast, I was recently at the Park Square restaurant and my experience was completely different. Service was spot on. Food was great and staff were very professional. It's too bad because in the old days, George and Roger would have never tolerated anything less than perfection. My general opinion of Legal Seafoods is that they have gotten too big, with no ability to maintain consistent controls in their individual restaurants. It's like a huge breach of trust between the consumer and the retailer. It degrades their entire reputation.
Went to Legal three times (Framingham, Prudential, Chesnut Hill). Each time was very underwhelming - wasn't bad, but so generic that I see no reason to eat there unless someone else pays the bill. Think Generic Corporate Lunch Place.
I frequently eat at Framingham Skipjacks and the quality is consistently good and continues to improve. Last time I tried a fusion-style dish that, dare I say, was close to Blue Ginger or Roy's (there's no Roy's in Boston area, though).
Dined at the Prudential this past Thursday 2/22. Great service, however the food took over an hour to come out, and when it did my steak was well done. This is the second time at this location my steak was not cooked right. Also after waiting an hour I was a bit frustrated!! No manager came by to apologize for this either. If it was not for the great service I would of walked out. I really enjoyed our waiter, and felt bad he had to work in such an enviroment.
re: emilief
it was a surf and turf that I ordered that came with the steak. I admit I would not come to Legals just for steak, but for steak with seafood it should come out right.
Went again to the Burlington locaton, again excellent oysters and seafood dishes. Shrimp lettuce wrap special (messy but great), our service was excellent but boy oh boy oh boy - we watched the service next to us in disgust!!!! After they were greeted twice with "oh, have I greeted you yet", it was down hill. After they waited too long, two totally different meals came out and the waitress was baffled "you didn't want this?". The customers couldn't wait any longer for what they really wanted and just wanted to go home. This waitress never offered to comp anything - we had to butt in- tell them to call over the mgr. - head of the restaurant should know about that kind of service. He comp'd most of their bill (they had drinks and salads). Only way to improve on such shotty service is to at least let someone know about it.
regardless of bad experiences for various reasons, can anybody deny that the oysters are incredibly fresh, well stored/served and well priced? i love oysters and legal is our standard go-to place for them. we live right by the aquarium location and find their wine very affordable, love to sit at the bar with oysters and a bottle of wine.
i appreciate legal even more when we travel for work, which is most of the time. when we get a craving for oysters (have been in florida for the last couple of months) they arrive dry, fishy smelling and warm and we remind ourselves not to order them down here again.
they just have such a tremendous turnover of them at legal, so the freshness is peerless.
Disappointing meal at the Legal in Logan recently, but what can you expect in an airport, I suppose. For good seafood and similar style dishes, check out FINZ in Salem's Pickering Wharf. Great views, good service and yummy cocktails!


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Aerial search spots no pot
August 1, 2014 No marijuana plants were found in Seneca County fields during the state's annual marijuana eradication effort Thursday. Detective Sgt. more »»
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August 1, 2014 Tiffin reports • Francis F. Ducas, 42, of Tiffin, was charged with possession of marijuana and disorderly conduct Wednesday night. • Dodie J. more »»
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July 29, 2014 Tiffin reports • A 200-block Jefferson Street man reported Sunday afternoon his iPad had been stolen from his residence sometime that day. • Jeremy D. more »»
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July 28, 2014 Tiffin reports • Timothy E. Feasel, 25, of Tiffin, was charged with theft Saturday afternoon. • An unruly youth was reported in the 200 block of South Monroe Street Saturday evenin. more »»
Getting around nature with disabilities
July 27, 2014 People with disabilities sometimes find themselves limited by circumstances when they want to go outdoors to enjoy a nature trail or maybe an afternoon of fishing, but Seneca County has many options... more »»
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July 27, 2014 Tiffin reports • A 400-block South Sandusky Street woman reported Friday evening her son's vehicle was spraypainted. • Two youths were fighting in the 100 block of East Market Street Friday night. more »»
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July 25, 2014 William "Bill" Ringle, 84, of Republic, passed away Wednesday afternoon, July 23, 2014, at his home, after a one-year illness. He was born Sept. 13, 1929, in Bloomville, to William J. and Nora B. more »»
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July 25, 2014 Tiffin reports • James M. Watson, 45, of Findlay, was charged with obstruction Wednesday. more »»
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July 24, 2014 Tiffin reports • A person went to the station Tuesday afternoon to speak to an officer about an ad on Craigslist involving an adult movie production. more »»
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July 23, 2014 Tiffin reports • Robert F. Stansberry, 19, of Bloomville, was charged with criminal damaging Sunday. • Scott E. Stump, 53, of Bettsville, was cited with operating a vehicle while intoxicated Monday. more »»
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July 22, 2014 • A son, Ivan Neil Stacklin, was born Wednesday, July 16, 2014, to Miranda and Bryan Stacklin of Attica. Ivan weighed 7 pounds, and measured 19 inches long. more »»
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July 22, 2014 Vernon P. Dotson, 57, of Bloomville, died Sunday, July 20, 2014, at Ruffing Family Care Center, Bloomville. He was born Sept. 2, 1956, in Tiffin, to Thomas B. and Thelma L. (Wheatley) Dotson. more »»
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July 22, 2014 Tiffin reports • Todd J. Miles, 30, of Bloomville, was charged with possession of drug abuse instruments and theft Sunday. A caller from Tractor Supply Co., 2501 W. Market St. more »»
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July 21, 2014 Tiffin reports • A person at Walmart, 2801 W. SR 18, reported Saturday afternoon the theft of baby clothes. • A person from Sunoco, 210 N. Washington St. more »»


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Western Daily Press has all the Wine Bars in West Country listed, many with reviews and star ratings; select one of the WIne Bars from the list below for a drink or meal with friends or for a celebration - be sure to return to Western Daily Press and leave a review.
Why not list your West Country Wine Bar on Western Daily Press?
Pcituresque Village Pub in Dorset Hearty Lunches, Fine Dining & Real Ales in Bishops Caundle Nestled in the...
Bishops Caundle,
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Fix non-displaying album art on iPods | 9 comments | Create New Account
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Fix non-displaying album art on iPods
If you followed this faulty hint using an iPod Color model, you will lose all album art. There are many postings about this on Apple support discussions with a longer time to live, including this informative one: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=638611&start=0&tstart=0
The only workaround I have for you is to copy all files from your iPod to your hard drive, then copy the files from your hard drive back to your iPod using the procedure I've come up with below.
From my posting http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=3253340#3253340 :
Apple has increased the workflow complexity of manually managing your iPod. Compare:
Steps to properly copy files from hard drive or optical media to an iPod using iTunes 7:
1) In iTunes, create a temporary LIBRARY based staging playlist. We'll refer to this playlist as "temp".
2) Drag files from the Finder into the iTunes "temp" playlist. If you are dragging files from optical media, you'll want to make sure the "Copy files to iTunes Music folder when adding to library" option is unchecked in Preferences > Advanced > General, or you'll end up copying files to your hard drive.
3) In iTunes, drag files from the "temp" playlist to desired iPod DEVICES based playlist.
4) When copy operation is complete, delete the "temp" playlist.
5) Optional: If you are copying files from removable media you will now have a number of broken references cluttering your iTunes Library. To clean these up, eject the removable media and run the "Super Remove Dead Tracks" script found at this site: http://www.dougscripts.com/itunes/index.php
Steps to properly copy files from hard drive or optical media to an iPod using iTunes 6:
1) Drag files from the Finder into desired iTunes iPod playlist.
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Bolla Pinot Noir 750ml$12.44Bolla Prosecco 750ml$17.24Bolla Riesling 1.5Ltr$25.54Bolla Riesling 750ml$12.44
Bolla Pinot Grigio Venezie Igt
Bolla - Veneto - Italy
One of the most versatile and interesting white wine grape varietals widely grown around the world is surely the Pinot Grigio. This grape comes in many different shades and colors, and unsurprisingly, it can also provide a remarkable range of flavors and aromas in the bottle. It is a varietal quite strongly influenced by both the terroir it is grown in, as well as by the expertise and intentions of the winery which is processing it. As such, many Pinot Grigio wines are relatively sweet, due to their high level of natural sugar. However, they can also be very dry for the same reasons, and in many countries they are aged and mellowed, resulting in beautiful tawny amber tones and a very rounded, full bodied character quite unlike white wines made from any other grape varietal.
Veneto in north-eastern Italy has always been associated with viticulture, being one of the most historically important regions in Italy and Europe at large, and having a strong tradition of trade and innovation. The history of the region has clearly had an effect on the wine which is produced there, as the influence of neighboring countries such as Austria is clear in the refreshing, clean and alpine flavored white wines which are typical of Veneto's wine culture and present in the excellent and famous Soave wines. Although over fifty-five percent of the ninety thousand hectares Veneto has under vine is used for the production of white wines, the region also produces some superb red wines which use a wide range of native and imported grape varietals. These include Pinot Noir and Cabernet Sauvignon, alongside more traditional red grapes associated with Italian wines.
For several decades in the mid to late twentieth century, Italy's reputation for quality wines took a fairly serious blow. This was brought about partly due to lack of regulation in certain regions, and too much regulation in others. This led to several wineries in the beautiful and highly fertile region of Tuscany making the bold move to work outside of the law, which they saw as responsible for the drop in quality in Tuscan wines. They believed that they had the expertise and the generations of experience necessary with which to make truly excellent, world class wines, and set about doing just that. These 'Super Tuscans', as they came to be known, quickly inspired the rest of Italy to improve their produce, and now, Italian wine producers in the twenty-first century are widely recognised to be amongst the best in the world. Regulation and law began to change, and wine drinkers across the globe woke up to the outstanding wines coming out of Italy, which are continuing to improve and impress to this day.