text:
We have been married 11 years and have a 8 year old boy. Things have not been great for a few years. We have basically been like roommates. I knew this and do did she. I still loved her though as I assume she did me. We never really fought or anything abusive, verbally or physically. I work hard take care of my family and spend tons if time with my son. Not a very balanced life I know. Anyway, we both could of and should have stopped over the last few years and paid attention to our marriage and worked on it. We both know people in way worse marriages.
Anyway, I found out she has been having an affair with a guy she met at work. It's been going on as far back as jan 2013. I can trace it back that far through texts. It goes back farther I'm sure. She has been leading a double life. She pretty much has always been home and left at the same times everyday. Nothing too suspicious. I'm assuming they had quickies at work or in car. Probably have met at hotels maybe. According to her texts she and he are supposedly in love too. He is married and has at least 2 kids. Just being a guy I know he is telling her whatever she wants to hear to keep getting some. I don't think he wants to lose his kids and not see them everyday. He's very inconsistent in their "relationship" and pops in and out. Obviously he is he's MARRIED!
Not knowing what to do, and thinking of my son first( imagine that) I'm looking for a way to confront her. I'm trying to take a different approach even though its eating me up inside! So I came to her Friday morning and told her that we need to work on our marriage or just forget it. Just in general because we have been roommates. She acknowledges that. I was trying to draw a confession out of her. We actually had a good talk and I communicated alot of my feelings about our relationship. Something that I normally don't do which is one of the problems. She cried, I cried, blah blah blah. She said she would go see someone with me and that she didn't want to hurt our son in a divorce. We talked about divorce too and she said she didn't want to. She said, after I acknowledged , that she loved me but wasn't in love with me. That didnt hurt me because I feel the same way. I keep a lot in and can live with alot just to keep everyone happy. Obviously she didn't admit anything which I knew she wouldn't. We've talked a couple more times since, but nothing. I thought it was worth a try as I an trying to avoid a major confrontation. I know i have to and will, just trying to get my ducks in a row.
Knowing her she will run out of the house when it happens. She's going to be shocked I know. I know she's going to want to alert him about it ASAP. She also has two friends that have been encouraging her through it. The selfishness of these women is amazing. One of them is in an affair too too and they comiserate. I know my wife just thought she would lead a double life Have her cake and eat it too. I would take care of her and she could be safe and love and screw him on the side. Unless he was willing to leave his wife and kids, then she would probably leave me. Not once thinking of her kid. Like that relationship would last long term anyway. She told me she needs passion and we don't have it. We have or could have a lot of other things in our marriage, but maybe not that. We have never been hanging off the chandeliers doing it anyway. But like I said it wasn't horrible otherwise. We obviously have some underlying problems anyway. Lack if communication etc. Who has everything in a marriage?
So what do I do? I don't know or think I can stay with her. I might be willing to try if she really wanted to mostly for my son. I woukd have major trust issues for sure. Also I don't know if I would believe her commitment to honestly working on it because she has nowhere to go and little money. I can't believe she hasn't thought of an end game here. She has 2 friends helping her she must have a "oh crap I got caught now whats the plan" plan. I don't thigh she does. She lives in the moment. Which is another problem we have. She's safe with me. So I think her plan is to get what she needs from both of us. Which is really f**ked up. Think her kid isn't getting the short end of the stick? That's what bothers me the most.
I know she needs to be confronted. I know if I want to try to work it out she has to end it with him. Don't think she will really. One plan I had was to contact him, I don't know him, and tell him calmly to never contact her again or I will get the information I have to his wife. Basically let her think you died. No contact whatsoever. I can monitor this because i have access to her cell phone bill. Its in my name. Shes been too stupid to be careful. It is indisputable evidence believe me. Pics, texts etc. I am under the assumption he doesn't want to lose what's he's got and is playing the game with my wife to keep it going. If it blows up in my face and he calls her and tells her I know then oh well. I've got nothing to lose anyway. At least i take down his marriage and kids too. If im going down im taking people with me. Her cheating friend too. Ive got the goods on her too that im sure her husband would like to know. I'm sure my wife will be mad at me for invading her privacy. Like screwing a guy for well over a year isn't anything !!
I needed to get this off my chest and need some advice. Either way something is going to happen soon. It's hard because my son is always here when we are. I need to plan a time. We don't tell or fight in front of him and I definitely don't want him knowing this. It's going to be hard enough on him if it all goes to hell. She acknowledged the other day that she would let me have him that she knows I'm the better parent and provider. I know that changes too though because one of her advisers will let her know age can get child support from me probably if she takes him. She'll be broke anyway. What a nightmare!!
Thank you!
You are not invading her privacy - you're invading her secrets. Big difference. Don't take the blame for that, or anything for that matter. You were both in the same struggling M. Did you cheat?
She cheats because she can and she wants to - it is her choice. YOU DID NOTHING TO CAUSE IT!
I think it wise to step away a bit, and get your ducks in a row before you confront.
Have you seen an attorney for a free consult?
Do that.
It helps you know.
Lastly, take care of yourself so you can take care of the little one.
Keep posting brother - sending strength!
So let me just start by telling you this:
You are in for a very hard ride. This is going to take time and require immense heavy and hard action on your part. Most of the advice we offer is going to sound totally insane and counterproductive. But its going to save you.
Its sort of as if you posted about a medical condition. As if you told us that you had an immense pain in a cut in your left foot and it was swollen and turning black. And then we tell you that you need to get it amputated. Its not what you want to hear. Its not what you want to do. But chances are that its the correct advice.
First piece of advice:
The affair is NOT your fault. The condition of your marriage is not an excuse for your wife to seek solace outside the marriage. There is NEVER a good reason or an excuse for infidelity. Shure the situation might explain why she decided to go this path, but her decision is and will always be wrong. To use one more comparison: Its like deciding to kill someone because of his bad breath.
So no matter what your WW says then YES accept responsibility for the condition of the marriage but NEVER accept an ounce of responsibility for her decision to cheat.
Take care of yourself. Make sure you get some food down your throat. Dont drink excessively. Exercise. Shower. Groom yourself. Give yourself time to rest, think and relax. This situation WILL NOT clear up in a few days or weeks.
Do NOT negotiate with OM. Do not threaten to tell his wife. Do not ask him to stop sticking his d@ck in her. Instead gather the evidence you have and then let his wife know.
This is so very very important. NOTHING you can do will help your marriage more right now than telling his wife.
Dont negotiate with your wife.
There is no way you can control her. There is no way you should negotiate on how she should act. Instead you tell her that she is totally free to be with OM and any other man in this universe. But not as your wife. So unless she clearly and verbally commits to NC with the OM, to end the affair and to commit to the marriage you simply assume the marriage is over.
How unique is your WW job? How hard would it be to get another job? What would affect your income and life more? Your wife having an ongoing affair or a temporary loss of income?
Seriously dude your wife will probably need to leave that job. It depends though how best to do that. What is their work relationship? Is he the same level, a manager or same department?
I am assuming you have kept copies of these texts in a safe place? The very best course of action is to not give the piece of shit guy or your wife a head's up. You need to get another copy of the texts and give it to the guy's wife. I would also then immediately, provide copies of the damning texts you have on your wife's friend to her husband. Then sit back and watch the fireworks. Who cares if your wife is pissed that you outed their little fairy tale? This is called a "consequence". She needs to get used to them.
Also, be ready for her to turn nasty and blame this entirely on you. I am willing to bet that she won't stop seeing the other guy right away either; plan on them taking the affair underground for a while.
Read through posts submitted under the Healing Library. You will see that when people are in the middle of "affair fog", you can't reason with them. It is like they are addicted. You cannot love her back; but you can stand firm and tell her you will not allow there to be another person in your marriage. She needs to got no contact with him immediately and probably start looking for another job. Counseling for her is also a good idea; she needs to figure out why she thought it was ok to date while married.
Before I confronted, I took the time to open my own bank account and I transferred half of our joint money into this account. I also hired an attorney and knew what my rights were BEFORE I confronted. There is no harm in getting information.
Keep posting and take care of yourself and your son. We have been in your shoes and you are going to be ok...
I wouldn't recommend letting things continue to slide, you need to address the issue. No matter how you try get your emotions and the like in order before confronting, chances are they will be rattled again during the confrontation.
You need to decide if there is a relationship to salvage and if you believe there is and want to salvage it you'll will need to find out the same from her. For it to work both parties need to be invested in the relationship.
I firmly believe there is no excuse for an affair, but I believe there is much that can be learnt from it and used to build a better relationship.
[This message edited by artec at 9:44 AM, February 17th (Monday)]
I am sorry you are here, but glad you found us.
I think your plan is solid. jjct has given you solid advice.
Use the cover of normalcy to get your ducks in a row. See an Attorney to know your ights.
Keep monitoring to gain some "evidence." It also shows that you are serious. Many wayward wives (WWs) seem to think what they have done" isn't that bad and he will be happy to have me back." Especially true if she has toxic friends that are promoting this in her head. Through her off her gameplan and teach her earlier on, only you call the shots from here on out.
I think telling OM BW would be the best bet. It ends the relationship and he will likely through her under the bus. Much easier to pick up the pieces without a willing OM
One more thing is that once it is out in the open, make sure than either he or her find a new job. NC with OM and her toxic friends forever both mentally and physically are required for any chance at reconciliation to work.
In the meantime take of yourself physically. Eat (drink protein shakes if you can't eat), rest (gets meds if need be) and exercise. Just a walk each day will work wonders. Spend time with your son and show him how much you love him.
Time with son=Attention=Love, in a kids world.
Take care man, you have a good head and a good heart. Remember that. She can't take that away from you. If it comes to that realize making the correct decision isn't always the easiest one.
Take care and again so sorry. You will survive this and be happy again. That much, I can promise you.
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.
Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.
All the best to you, Rocket!
Print it out and download it to a secure location. Whatever it is - him, her, the enablers- all of it. That stuff can vanish in a heartbeat and you'll be left with vapor and nothing to go on.
She does not get to use you and your family as backstop, safety net or training wheels. That is ridiculous.
But it is normal for cake eaters and liars.
Her: WW/57 Me: BS/63 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11
Please take what he said to heart. We''ve all been there, done that. We are speaking from experience and having made those mistakes.
Do not contact the OM. It will do absolutely no good. Promise. Been there, done that (sort of, I caught them together and told him off). He's already aware of you I'm sure, and he doesn't care. Saying "please stop screwing my wife" only makes you look weak.
I would contact the OM's wife. Tell her what you know and be willing to give her what evidence you have. Be prepared for her not to believe you.
Then, I would tell your WW what you know, and tell her to get out. If she is truly repentant and remorseful as demonstrated by ACTIONS, then you can negotiate R. I can not stress the following enough: Do not believe a word she tells you for the time being. She will lie, lie, and lie again. Verify whatever she says based on her ACTIONS.
Hang in there buddy. It's gonna be a long ride.
More background. I'm really hurt since I have done everything imaginable to get us through some tough times. When the economy went down we had a hard time. I'm a small business owner and we had to claim personal bankruptcy a few years ago. We are able to keep our house and I was tenacious in doing that because I wanted my son to grow up in one home. I did everything through the whole process. She did nothing. No sacrifice on her part. I sold equipment, pawned, borrowed etc to keep this house for us. Nobody ever went without !! I have a lot of anger towards her not only for that and now screwing it up but other times before that where she was lazy and could have done more. Problem is I never spoke up and expressed my feelings to her. Probably just to avoid a fight. Stupid I know. I did tell her my feelings the other day though. That I've been bottling stuff up for years and had alot of anger towards her. I'm not even saying I'm taking any blame for this. I know it's not my fault. Just giving you the info.
The only reason I was going to contact OM was to be sure they ended contact as best I could. The threat of contacting his wife would do it maybe. I know my wife isn't strong enough too. She thinks she's in Iove and he loves her. Ya right.
Right now, you're in crisis mode. As hard as it might be, don't let your emotions control your actions. Like Bigger said, taking care of yourself is going to be first and foremost.
*get your "ducks in a row" before you confront (see below points). Gather proof (text records etc), financial info and legal paperwork and make copies. have a safe place to keep it that your W will have no access to.
*see an attorney. You need to know what your rights are/will be. This doesn't mean you have to file right away, but it will give you an idea of what you are dealing with.
*go to your dr and get std tested. do NOT have sex with your W unprotected.
*open a bank account in your name only.
*Do NOT contact the OM. This will probably only increase contact and drive the A further underground.. It also gives him a heads up to fill his W's head with "crazy man accusing me of affair". Don't threaten to expose the A to his W (to him or your W), just do it (see below).
*If possible, have your son away from the house during confrontation. School, a friends or relatives house etc...
*Ideally, expose the A to the OM's W right before you confront your W. This eliminates the chance that your W and OM have time to get their stories "straight". Be gentle and compassionate to her (OM's W). Offer proof if she wants it and a way to contact you with questions in the future. Have no expectations of her reaction.
*Do NOT reveal your sources to your W.
*Be prepared for her to be angry, breaking down, denying, indignant, denying, faulting you, denying. Try to keep even keeled. Do NOT allow her to drag you into her drama/denying or steer the confrontation off subject. Be in control of the confrontation.
* if you decide this is a deal breaker, then you will be prepared and will have your ducks in a row to move through the process of divorce/separation.
*Ultimately she has a choice. You or him. No time to decide, mull over or think about. If she doesn't "know", then let her know that she can decide that on her own, without you...You may or may not be available for her when she comes to a decision.
**if she refused to decide, chooses to leave or needs time, then let her know you consider the two of you separated and you are prepared to execute the legalities of her choice to protect yourself and your son.
*if she chooses to end the A, Demand NC. Immediately. whether it be by text, email or snail mail. There are some great examples of NC letters in the healing library. Anything sent is to be approved by you and witnessed by you. This is NOT a time for closure or apologies. Cut, dry, done. Block his number/email. There should be NO other contact with him from this point forward, whether it be initiated or received. Also, NC with the unhealthy friends that support the A.
*Know that this is a long road. No matter what you choose to do. Your emotions will be all over the place. The stages you'll go through will be similar to the 5 stages of grief. While nothing can make this better, being prepared and having a good support system (SI, IC, trusted friends/family) can help.
I know this is a lot to take in . There's more to it, but those are the basics (I"m sure others will add to/have better advice) Remember, you don't have to make any decisions right away. Take care of YOU first and foremost.
Keep reading, keep posting.
[This message edited by unfound at 10:30 AM, February 17th (Monday)]
I would contact the OM's wife today if I were you.
This is unbelievable!! If it weren't for my son her stuff would be on the front lawn tonight. I think I'm going to go with the shock and awe plan. F**k em all!!
I have thought about taking the money out of account and opening different one. It's mine anyway. She cant even go to a hotel.
My major pain is how my son is going to respond to us not being together anymore. He's going to be devastated. He's very sensitive. I can't even imagine what to say to him. I will not talk bad about his mother to him. Unfortunately we are linked for life because of him. Too bad she didn't think of that before she f**ked the other dude. B*tch. Whore. I'm very angry now.
All the proof I have I sent to my best friend. It's not on my computer or in this house. I'm not as stupid as her.
So.... I did what the others have suggested. Gathered up all of my infidelity evidence in a folder etc.
But then...I made an appt with a therapist ( I had seen her years earlier due to another unrelated family issue but she knew my history etc.).
I went to the therapist myself first and laid out what I had found out.
And then I asked her if she would be willing to see us both and I would confront him about the affair in the therapists office.
I knew that there was a much better chance of him sitting still long enough to hear me out and to answer some of the questions in a calmer and more controlled and neutral setting.
edited because my fat fingers hate iphones.
[This message edited by lordhasaplan? at 11:52 AM, February 17th (Monday)]
One thing I might add - how about confronting her with a therapist? Schedule a session. She said she would go, right? And let her know, in front of the therapist, what you know. It's a safe place, away from your son, and she won't get away with blaming you because any good therapist will set her straight.
Good luck. Be strong. Take good care of yourself!
By me telling his wife isnt that giving my wife what she wants? His wife may just throw him out and my wife will follow him I'm sure. I want to screw it up for my wife too. I can't stand the thought of my son going to see her with that scumbag around.
My major pain is how my son is going to respond to us not being together anymore. He's going to be devastated. He's very sensitive. I can't even imagine what to say to him. I will not talk bad about his mother to him. Unfortunately we are linked for life because of him. Too bad she didn't think of that before she f**ked the other dude. B*tch. Whore. I'm very angry now.
I could reiterate what a lot of people here wrote but I won't waste your time. Good advice in general. I would add a few things though -
- Try and slow down. I remember my brain being on over drive. If you can slow it down a little and remember that the sun will come up tomorrow with or without her it will help you think more clearly.
- Your W did it. It's not on you. That all said, remember who you are and how you want to behave. Don't let other people's messed up actions dictate yours. Your didn't cheat take pride in that.
- A therapist said something to me right after D-day that I did not believe for a long time. You have a lot of power in your relationship right now. She messed up. She doesn't support herself fully. You are the better parent. Take a little time prior to confronting her and think about what you want.
NC, Leave her Job, Complete honesty from her from this point forward, she looses all privacy, Must attend IC and figure out why she did this and anything else you want. She can't be your slave, but she should be contrite. If she is not, start the process of D.
- After confrontation turn away from her for a while. Tune into you. It is real easy to focus on your dumb ass W right now, but truth is you have some work to grieve and heal from as well. Spend time with you kid one on one, pick up a new hobby, go out with friends. Basically, don't give all your attention to the dumb ass that betrayed you, you don't want to reward that behavior. She needs to learn to stand on her own two feet and explain to you why she did that. It will take a while and you may need to be patient.
- Find someone you can trust to talk to about this - IRL. I had two friends and while they grew sick of me whining all the time, I would run through a brick wall for them now. I think they would for me as well.
Above all - take care of you. You are the only one you got. WW are a dime a dozen.
Take care...
[This message edited by wert at 1:01 PM, February 17th (Monday)]
But from what you have said here I don't think that is the case, the OM is very comfy in his own marriage so you telling his wife will be in your favor as it not only will have the OM throwing your wife under the bus but it will now have a second set of eyes and ears on their dirty little secret. Like cockroaches when the light gets turned on you will watch them scatter.
Don't tell your wife or the OM that you are doing this....your very best bet is to find a way to the OM's BS and get the info to her. It is very hard, we know. Trust us on here...your marriage already has a 3rd person in it...you need to implode him out of your life.
On that note, do NOT start moving money, or more than half of it, prior to contacting an attorney. In fact I would encourage you to hold off on confrontation with her, until you have had a chance to see an attorney and take any necessary steps to get yourself and your son protected.
You have every right to be mad. Use that to your advantage. Anger can allow you to be much more productive than, pure grief. The fact that your M has been bad for a while indicates that she has probably been up to no good for an extended period of time, even longer than the year you have proof of.
(((and strength))))
It is always best to tell the other BS, if there is one - after you get all your ducks in a row.
And I must compliment you on keeping your head together as much as you have! You are so much stronger than you probably realize. One foot In front of the other . . .
It is said often here that the worse thing with infidelity is not losing your wife, it's keeping your wife but having her continue with the affair. As many here will attest, take that to heart.
My only recommendation, and the pitfall where so many of us go wrong, is to be strong in your demands and in your resolve. We all want so badly to have our spouses "come back" but don't realize that they're already gone. If they are going to return to reconcile then it has to be on them, 100%, with complete remorse and action.
The only way to get this decision made is to be firm. To issue a list of demands that are absolutely without negotiation. Anything less than complete approval is to be met swiftly and decisively.
Yes, it's possible that she may not agree and may have the axe fall upon her. But any decision - one way or the other - is far better than no decision. And she can always change her mind, if, in fact, you decide to allow her to do so.
Lastly, as realitybites notes, chances are he isn't leaving his wife for her. That rarely happens. It sucks to here but for guys the AP is typically little more than a piece of ass on the side - no matter what rainbows and unicorns she thinks it is.
Good luck to you. I know how much this hurts.
We're together and very happy.
PM me if you want to chat.
[This message edited by Gman1 at 1:24 PM, February 17th (Monday)]
my fww.....and hundreds of other BHs here went throught he same thing....the APs BW didnt know for about 10 days after our DDay and it was the worst fucking 10 days of my life. The fantasy still was present.....she even tried contacting him with a new hidden email with the acronym of their names and a "happy ending"......when the wife found out....BOOOOOM....it was like the entire world fell out. the fog lifted....and the game was over......
I am still pissed 3 years later
Keep calm, don't beg and plead, but adopt a hard line; including the threat of divorce and full disclosure to family.
You are getting great advice so far.
I am a big fan of shock and awe.
1. See an attorney and know your rights.
2. When you expose to the OMW is the day you confront your WW. You can do it at counseling but if you really want to send a wakeup message have her served divorce papers at work.
3. That same day you have her served is when you expose her year long affair to her family and her close friends. But you send the email to them asking them for their support to help support your marriage.
4. Will your wife be angry? Hell yeah. Will she start to wakeup? hell yeah. Will the OM dump her and try to save his own skin? Hell yeah.
The question will be if your wife is willing to to stop her affair and actually work on the marriage.
The other question is if you will someday forgive her and still want to be married to her.
Get your ducks in a row. Use the advice that works for you.
But don't be too nice. She will see that as a sign of weakness and use that weakness to continue to screw you over like she has been doing for a year or more.
My only recommendation, and the pitfall where so many of us go wrong, is to be strong in your demands and in your resolve. We all want so badly to have our spouses "come back" but don't realize that they're already gone. If they are going to return to reconcile then it has to be on them, 100%, with complete remorse and action.
Rocket -
I think this advice is spot on, however I would place a caveat on it. When I found out about my W cheating I did not want to lose my family, but I could give a shit about losing my WW. To very different things in my book. It's OK to be angry (in fact I think a great thing) because who wouldn't stop loving their spouse after finding out.
That all said, remember very few things are forever, especially all the feelings that this crap stirs up.
I guess what I am getting at is I think its normal to not like her or even love her anymore. That does not mean that after a while it won't come back, especially if she takes responsibility for her actions and gets her shit straight. IMO she needs to work at earning your love back. Anything else would have fallen short for me and I would have file for D.
Has anybody ended up sticking together through this? I can't see it happening.
Yep. A few years out and we are still together. A few things about that.
-IMO, think the other direction first. Get you strong and make sure she knows you ready to walk.
-She has a lot of growing up to do I suspect. In general people who have A's are pretty messed up in the head IMO. They did not get like that in the last few months...they have had poor coping skills most of their lives...it takes a long time for them to break them and leave differently. Some can't. Some really to a great job of it and become cool people. Anything is possible, but play the odds. If she is not towing the line, taking responsibility for her actions, doing what you ask, etc, cut her loose or be ready too...
take are...
take care...
[This message edited by wert at 3:31 PM, February 17th (Monday)]
I thought I might give you an example of what a woman will do if she wants your marriage. Six month time frame.
Did she want the marriage?
I will advise you if anything but a yes (No maybe's by her), its best just to go ahead and not waste any time. Go get a lawyer. I would do nothing to try and attract her back.
Will she know what to do? I doubt it. I said, "No contact."
My wife quit her job; immediately.
My wife started to be very transparent.. Immediately.
My wife decided on her own to seek IC. She didnt go for long because she felt like the IC was trying to talk her out of Marriage. I know he was just trying to get her to make a decision because she had disqualified me long before her affair even began. She was still unsure if I could be the husband she needed.
My wife volunteered going to Retrouvaille. We went.
My wife gave me three very deep emotional heartfelt apologies.
My wife did not run away when my anger grew to levels she had never seen. In other words, She was able to handle my pain.
My wife decided to get on AD.
My wife read some books on what love is about, on her own.
My Wife told me reasons, but never placed the blame on me, it was all on her. I listend to the reason not in terms of excuses.
My wife turned toward friends of our marriage.
My wife eliminated her best friend at the time. A woman who also thought following feelings in secrete is the best way.
My wife did not get defensive when I exposed to the OMs W. She felt it was part of the consequences.
I could not trust my wife for a long time. Years. She was consistent in her transparence and understood my needs to ask certain questions.
My advice to you right now is take sex off the table. Fight any neediness to be affirmed in this way. This is not to punish, but leading your wife to a mutually-respectful relationship comes before leading your wife to sex. Sincerely and diligently work at this long enough that you can be sure you both know you've done your best to create a happy, loving relationship with each other. Seek more of what it means to be married and happy.
I wish you well.
[This message edited by trynhard at 3:57 PM, February 17th (Monday)]
The question will be if your wife is willing to to stop her affair and actually work on the marriage.
The other question is if you will someday forgive her and still want to be married to her.
The other question is if you will someday forgive her and still want to be married to her.
Everything about infidelity boils down to those two questions. If the answer and ACTIONS behind the answer to either of those questions is "No", then your marriage is over. You may still be "married", but you no longer have a marriage.
For me, my WW's answer to the first based on her ACTIONS was a loud and clear "NO". So, I filed for D.
So true.. let her actions speak.
My 2 cents is to not expect too much too soon. Give yourself some time and space to heal. Read and implement http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11 Focus on you and your son. Get the other BS the info, confront your WW and go dark. Don't feed the monster. Let her show you what she wants. When she speaks, imagine large steaming piles dropping out of her mouth with every word. Watch her actions, don't listen to a thing.
Right now, she doesn't matter, you and your son do.
My wife and the other man were in "love " too and he damn for sure didn't come to my house to rescue his "love". I went to his and let his wife know and gave him a new perspective on his outlook on life. He saw it through two swollen eyes. I'm not recommending this but the circumstance were in my favor.
You're number one ally will be the other man's wife. You two will be able to get the stories straight after the lying really gets kicked off after the confrontation. Good luck to you brother and stay well.
There is a lot of great advice out there. But some of it probably has just been too much. If I may frame it a little differently, it might be of help *might not, but what the heck*
As you are instinctively doing, keeping a calm and rational persona will serve you in the long run. Take action, but do it in a detached and logical fashion.
To that end, seeing a lawyer (or several lawyers), backing up your evidence (store it off site), separating finances, finding the OM's wife and a way to contact her, drafting exposure letters (factual and without recrimination), and preparing for confrontation are all critical steps to your healing. These are actions you can and must take, but really take little focus.
What is going to drain your soul is pulling the triggers on ending her affair with maximum impact. You will doubt yourself. Rationalize the conclusion that this is not really happening. That you should leave it alone. That if you expose, you will lose her.
As many other have told you - life is hell with your wife fucking another man. Without exception, it is better to be free of that than have her and share her without consent.
You need to see an IC and work on your detachment. If you fear the outcome, you are never going to take the actions you need to really heal. I am not saying that to be cruel. I am saying that with my most clinical assessment of infidelity.
If you do not regain your strength, your foundation, your sense of being, you will not be free from infidelity and the misery it brings. Listen to the wise ones that will help you on your journey. Unfound gives an incredible list of dos and don'ts that you should practically memorize. And of course Bigger is an infidelity guru for men.
Blessings to you and may you find the strength you need to begin your healing.
[This message edited by reallyscrewedup7 at 4:38 PM, February 17th (Monday)]
Find out how long it takes for the divorce process in your state. If it will take a few months you may want to go ahead and get this process rolling as soon as you can. If things change during this period and if your WW gets her head of of her ass and wakes from the fog, is totally remorseful for what she did and wants to reconcile then you can pull the petition. However, if it gets worse then you'll be glad the time will not have been wasted in filing and you'll already be much closer to the divorce being final.
One of the traps we get into is not setting a firm deadline for moving on or reconciling. Starting the divorce process is one way to enforce it. Also, it will tell your WW you will not be a doormat for her so she better own her shit and do something about it cause the clock is ticking.
I have just read all 3 pages and I noticed something. You said your marriage has been dead. You hardly talk about your love for your wife and it's all about your son.
Now 2 things stand out here.
1. Don't reconcile for your son only
2. If your marriage is ONLY about your son, you shouldn't reconcile.
Some couples make the mistake of not working on their relationship and only being a parent. One day your son will grow up and live his own life. Who do you want to be with then? Your wife?
p.s. Please people, work on your marriage and not just your kids. Don't make them your all. I am saying this as a Mum.
By me telling his wife isnt that giving my wife what she wants? His wife may just throw him out and my wife will follow him I'm sure
Just the opposite.
She wants both. To have both, OM and the Marriage in tact, the secret must be kept from both BS's. If she and the OM had simply wanted out of their marriages they could have left at anytime. But they haven't. They want both. The comfort of family and the familiar, along with the excitement of some strange on the side. That's what affairs are made of. They are high on dopamine, amping up their high with an infusion of adrenaline (risk).
That's the thing about Affairs.
Inform the BS with your proof without giving anyone any warning.
Right now you have the trump card and nobody knows it. When the discovery hits hard, and they find you've taken away all the places they could run and hide, the A can't survive. Take away all the safe places for this secret to thrive and you will suck the life away from the A.
The advice you have been given here, is from thousands and thousands of experiences of people in your situation. The advice is solid.
Sorry that you are here and that your life has been turned upside down by this. It's a long road, but one you don't have to travel alone.
[This message edited by refuz2bavictim at 1:55 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]
So much great advice. I really can't add it it.
Just some thoughts.
I often think that the WS sees themselves as being in control. They control when/if they see the AP, how they interact with you, whether they have sex with you and what it is like, whether they nice to you or crabby. They control it all. They don't have to invest in their relationship with you because they have their backup waiting in the wings to do the ego stroke and provide the porn star sex when they need it.
Let me emphasise this. They are used to feeling in control. To have any chance of shaking them out of their stupidity you have to take control.
These are some of the things I said to my FWH on dday. In no particular order.
- If they mean so much to you - then go. I don't want you. I don't want a man who isn't 100% committed to me.
- By the way.... if you are so "in love" why are you still here????
- Your whores may be willing to share you with me but I will never knowingly share my man with another woman. I'm worth more than that. Choose me or leave.
- Do it again and we are finished. No excuses, no remorse, nothing will convince me to stay. This is your one and only chance.
- If I let you stay it is on my terms. I am not ready to S/D at the moment. I don't have the strength to face it right now. That means you have time.... time to prove to me that you are worth keeping.
The very WORST thing a BS can do is beg or plead. To allow themselves to be the second choice or the backup plan.
My prediction is that when you tell his BW he will drop your wife like a hot potato. If he doesn't and they decide they are in luuuurve and ride off together into the sunset then let her go. She's not worth your time or effort.
BIG HUGS and good luck
You really are getting great advice here. On top of all of it, I want to stress this phrase from Laura:
If I let you stay it is on my terms. I am not ready to S/D at the moment. I don't have the strength to face it right now. That means you have time.... time to prove to me that you are worth keeping.
The very WORST thing a BS can do is beg or plead. To allow themselves to be the second choice or the backup plan.
Fear is a HUGE factor in the initial stages. Not many people are able to even fathom walking away in the beginning. It is just too overwhelming.
But that is where you need to focus. Because once you start to process everything, and come to understand that leaving is NOT the worst possible scenario---then things will be seen in a different light. You will be able to process thoughts much more rationally.
Work on getting past the fear. Don't be afraid to blow everything sky high when you have your information. It was mentioned a couple of posts earlier about the wayward's perceived sense of control.
Remove that sense from them.
[This message edited by jb3199 at 6:35 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]
All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D
OMW found out 2.5 weeks before I did and they true to form, took the affair underground. When I also found out, the fantasy was over and they both threw each other under a bus.
The only suggestion I will give you is to not feel pressured to make a decision. Take all the time you need. Time is the only thing thay will give you clarity. One of the best quotes I've read on here is that 'the cure for the pain, is the pain.' It is unavoidable, soul destroying pain, but a pain you will face and deal with (and ultimately conquer) nonetheless. I assure you he will throw your wife under a bus once his other half knows. Your wife has already left you, the wife you had no longer exists. It's up to her and yourself to decide whether you want anything to do with the 'new' one.
Let us know how you get on mate and keep posting for support.
[This message edited by Hurthalo at 6:41 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]
Me BS (34) WW (29)
Married 2 years
2y old Daughter
D-Day 05 Nov 13
I was in your shoes just a few months ago. Stay strong. You will get through this. I agree with all of the advice you have been given so far. Here are a few other things I would do:
1) After consulting your lawyer, see if it would be worthwhile to contact your WW's HR department at work. If this OM is your WW's boss, then he will surely get fired. Even if they work on separate teams, I'm sure the HR dept will frown upon this type of behavior. Your WW could get fired too, so before exposing at work, talk with your lawyer
2) If you can access her phone, install a spyware app on it. There are several varieties usually intended to keep track of teens. Also activate the GPS tracking feature on her phone. Don't tell her you've done this. You will need the spyware and tracking feature AFTER d-day to see if she is maintaining NC
3) On the day you chose for exposure, make sure you post the OM on cheater websites. Also post your WW's slutty friend who is also having an A on cheater websites. Insist that your wife cut-off ties with the two friends who encouraged the A. Alert their husbands as to what these two sluts have been doing in their spare time.
4) Go buy a couple of VARs and plant them around the house, and one in her car. Best model is Sony ICD-PX312. Turn off the beep feature and turn on the voice activation feature before deploying. Secure it with heavy duty velcro. DON'T EVER REVEAL to her that you have a VAR. Keep her guessing, she will think that you have a PI following. This will be REALLY USEFUL after D-day to see if NC is really kept or not.
[This message edited by kalimata at 8:54 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]
I still don't know how I'm going to proceed. She knows something is wrong with me but she's too stupid to put two and two together. Hard for me to talk to lawyer etc this week. My son is on break and I'm here all day with him. I have a seasonal business so I'm basically home in the winter.
My best friend has been through this years ago and has helped me not to go nuts on her. Plus I can't with my kid around. I've been through every emotion and keep moving back and forth through them all. Right now I feel like I'm mourning the life I thought I was going to have and worked so hard for. Not knowing how the future life will be. She has single handedly destroyed several lives here including her own. Guess it was worth it.
I don't want to be a pussy about this. I need time to suck it up and destroy her, him and her "friends". I know she won't comply to a list of demands that includes her never talking to those two again let alone her man. I guess that gives me my answer and plan. I don't think I can get over knowing I slept in the same bed with her while she had his cum in her. Sorry so graphic but I'm angry.
I know she won't comply to a list of demands that includes her never talking to those two again let alone her man.
Don't assume this. you have no idea how she'll react, just as she has no idea how you will.
Away you will go, sailing in a race among the ruins.
If you plan to face tomorrow, do it soon. Gordon Lightfoot
Do not worry about being a pussy about this, no one in the world is judging how you act. Acting with intelligence and not destroying someone is not acting like a pussy.
It sounds like you have all of your evidence ready. But have you made up your mind, do you want to stay with your wife and get through this or have you made up your mind divorce no matter what.
If it is divorce, then you just need to talk to a lawyer now and file the papers. Before you do explode.
You are imaging all types of outcomes that might or might not happen. Once found out, your wife might come out of the fog and into reality again. It is amazing the fog that a WS will get into.
Once you do confront, keep your anger in check, cops will arrest you at a moments notice these days and then where will you be.
Forget her friends for now, many people have no idea what it is like to be in your position.
Confronting your wife will most likely burst the bubble of the affair, affairs are no fun once they are out in the light of day. And no fun means the party is over. Watch the OM throw your wife under the bus.
Decide if you are going to try and reconcile or divorce no matter what.
Your little boy is always present? I know that he just broke his arm. So sorry, I hope he gets better soon.
Is there no one around that you trust that could keep him for a day or two?
Are you waiting so that you can find the POSOM's BS?
Perhaps if you go premium here on SI, you would have access to the Investigative Tips forum and get some help there on finding POSOM.
The reason for the query is that you are reaching the anger stage (which is good by the way) but you will need to let some steam off for your health sake.
And since you can see texts and such it must be galling to read the missives between her whorish sidekicks and her. Sometimes the WS think that we BS are soooo stupid...The fucking nerve! Retribution will be sweet.
I love shock and awe too. Just don't want you to hurt your health by waiting too long.
Take Care Rocket.
Never forget what is worth remembering or remember what is best forgotten.
Finding the OMs wife's phone number. In the good old days, every house had a number, so I guess this address does not have a landline?
You can pay to get just about anyone's cell phone number and do background searches. Just read the fine print and make sure you are only paying for ONE search and not signing up for some automatically monthly bill.
I don't think you need to wait to get her number before confronting your wife. If it comes to letting the OM wife know, you can always write her a letter and mail it to the house. Send it registered to where she has to sign for it.
I think you should get the affair ended as soon as possible and out in the open by letting your wife know that you do know. The longer it goes on, the worse it can get. Your wife might even turn it on you by asking things like, why did you let it go on.
I don't know what I'm waiting for. I need to takes notes maybe to stay on point when I do confront. Trying to pull myself out of this funk. Not feeling well I am eating and I know it's important. I will pull it together soon.
Once you have that knowledge you will be able to decide how to proceed. As far as the AP's wife, you should be able to figure that stuff out, by using the internet. There are all kinds of resources to reverse lookup numbers to addresses and so forth. Hell ask the Attorney how to go about it, when you see him.
Get some answers so you can protect yourself.
He is running cyber wise....covering his tracks.
Mine did the same....trying to prevent his wife from finding out. I googled his name until I found an article about a death in his family...and found her name...googled her name until I found where she worked.....called...got her number....which he had turned off....dead end. Found his address through one of those real estate sites....sent 3 letters certified in a row.....he got two of them...she got the third....and all hades broke loose. Fantasy Land exploded
I did find it really odd when I checked the cell phone bills that his number never shows up on bill. I have the physical texts from that number on my wife's phone
If he was using an app to text her, then it would use his data and never show up on your bill or his as a text.
My STBX may have done this. All of a sudden her data usage went through the roof just after I discovered all the phone calls and text messages to the OM. But, I'm 99% sure she has another cell phone (I saw her make a call that wasn't on either her personal or work phone) that I wasn't able to find.
Edit: Try property records to get his address. I did that with the OM. In my state, every single piece of property, current owner, tax info, etc. is in a searchable database available for free online.
[This message edited by RealityStinks at 11:06 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]
I know that the OW in our situation deeded one-half of her home to her oldest daughter and that they now have a mortgage that is higher than the assessed value of the home. She's a real peach and a real estate tycoon!!
You can send me a personal message if you would like and I can try to search for you.
Problem is here, is that they are by address only.
You can go to your county or city government website and look around for the clerk and recorder office. Sometimes those websites have all property records listed by name. You might get lucky there.
I just wanted to add, it could be possible he blocked you on Facebook? You might want to create a whole new account and search for him that way. Also try pipl.com to search for him. I have found that the sites you pay for aren't the best, but that's just my experience.
Positive thoughts to you and your son
D-Day~2-10-08 *Even though I "knew" before then...
~~~He can't stop cheating, and I can't stop loving him~~~
~You ruined me~
~How do I start a new life when all I've ever known is you in
As far as finding out details for this guy, try these:
1) type in his phone number into a google search box and see what comes up
2) Spokeo.com
3) Intelius.com: both of these sites can be used to run a background check on the OM
Background checks usually provide the last few known addresses and date of birth.
I know you want to reach OMW then did you try finding out where she works??? Google her name. Look on LinkedIn, Facebook, etc. Once you find out where she works, try to call her during office hours.
You know, when you confront your wife, she just might tell you everything, including her name, address, etc.
She might be completely shocked and sorry and just tell you everything. Some WW's subconsciously want to be caught and stopped.
Getting closer to finding her. They have really common names. I don't know her first name.
Did you try searching marriage records? If you know his first and last name perhaps you can search the marriage records. The county clerk's office is the best place. You can then find out her maiden name and first name from the marriage certificate.
Can I confront my wife and hold that card?
NO, NO, NO. Absolutely not. Once you confront you need to spill everything in one shot. Trickling out the exposure will only make things worse.
The best impact would be to expose to everyone at the same time. The MOST IMPORTANT exposure is OMW.
If you can't find her, be patient and wait until you are sure its her. Hire a PI to tail OM until he goes home. Or follow OM yourself. You will then have his home address and hence the location where his wife lives.
BE PATIENT MY MAN, Don't jump the gun yet.
Lay out the info you have and break it down into the little tidbit of information that make up the whole.
I.E. You have his cell. break it down. Search the web for the first three numbers (prefix) and see if it narrows down the search to a specific region in your area. Sometimes they give out different prefixes to different areas. Rather than trying to do a reverse search, just enter the number into Google as is and see what comes.
Do you have his e-mails? Check the headers for the source or recurring DNS numbers and search them to see who the provider is. You may be able to find out where he works as theh DNS aree often linked to companies.
Pick away at the threads of little facts and way those little facts fit together. A clearer picture will build itself up.
[This message edited by Twitchy at 7:03 AM, February 20th (Thursday)]
Find the OMW. Inform her on the same day as your wife is served. Let OM run to save his marriage.
File for D and serve her at work. When she rush back she should see her things packed.
Sounds like you are struggling. Let me try to summarize the information that we do know about this POS:
- You have access to your WW's cell phone, as you are able to see her text messages and pics that he has sent her. Can you perhaps install some spyware app on it without her knowing?
- You know OM's full name, but it is a common one, so when searching Google probably too many hits.
- You also know his cell phone number and have used a couple of paid search sites without much luck. If he was using a subscription based cell phone to contact your wife, he most likely would show up on the searches. Sounds like he is using a prepaid cell phone (burner phone) to keep himself hidden. He may be using a fake name as cover. Sounds like a real sleazeball.
- You also know that OM and WW used to work together, and he was fired a few months ago.
- Finally you know his son's name
So you are in a bind because you can't expose until you know where OM lives and also how to contact OMW. In the meantime your WW continues to be in touch with OM. Here are some more suggestions
1) Do a birth records search with OM's name and Son's first name. Try ancestry.com or the birth registry in the state that you live
2) Install a keylogger on the computer that WW uses. She most likely is also communicating with OM via email. Look for secret email accounts
3) Install a VAR in a place where she goes and talks to him privately (car, home office, bedroom, etc). Best model is SONY ICD-PX312. Buy a couple from walmart. Turn off the beep feature and turn on the voice activation feature as described in the manual. Secure it with Velcro. Within a few days you should have some juicy info on the OM.
4) Once you install the spyware app on her phone, set it up so that the GPS warns you once she leaves a predefined area - this is likely when she is going to meet OM. Hire a PI to tail your wife in this situation and find more details about OM.
For locating these people have you tried ZabaSearch? Free, and pretty good.
My thoughts. Attitude is everything right now. View this as some temporary pain. Time will go by quickly and months from now you will get your peace back with some good wise decisions.
I don't want to be a pussy about this.
You said
your marriage has been dead
Your marriage is in misery and one step away from divorce or an awakening.
I suggest you focus on YOU first.
A big question for you to decide.
Do I want this marriage? Can I handle the temporary pain in this phase? Do I want or have the ability to accept my wife had a relationship with another man during our marriage? Can I forgive? Can I change to fix myself to only be in a loving, caring, giving and happy marriage and never again allow myself to be in a "dead" marriage?
If no, it is best to accept my wife's choice of infidelity and her choice was divorce by her own actions.
If yes or even maybe they may I make some suggestions.
The best situation is for your wife to confess. How?
You control your own words and actions. You have the ability to add pressure. YOU already know your wife is in an affair. That is a fact.
This is a suggestion. Lead your wife to think about her behavior.
It starts with a conversation. The words are important. The pressure will be mostly implied.
Now... Rocket, " wife, our marriage has not been in a good place for many months. My feelings tell me there is somthing just not right. Is there anything you need to tell me?"
Then just listen. Nothing more to be said.
Day 3... Rocket," wife, to me, I want more loving, caring, giving and loving marriage. I realize things I may have done in the past may have hurt you. I don't want to be that man forward. We married knowing things might get rough. I had the value and the drive to be a man who can see that treating each other the best possible way, being loving, been caring is the best way, by choice, will bring us closer. Do YOU have the same value?"
Then just listen. Nothing more to be said. During this process do not engage in long deep emotional discussions. Avoid that. Just listen. Move on the conversation should she need to down a path. (critical to express YOUR value)
Day 5-6... Rocket, "Wife, something is not feel right to me. Are you sure you don't have anything you need to tell me?" just listen.
Wife, "no"
Rocket, "Oh well, with certianty, I am sure I will figure it out."
Do you understand what I am writing to you? You can add a few steps if you wish. and after this, should she not feel enough pressure to confess to you, Is this really the kind of HARD, uncaring woman YOU want to be with? I would go ahead an make plans to move on with your life.
Optioned 2..
Without warning, you just tell your wife that you know she is an affair. Should she argue or deny, do yourself a favor, she is not worthy of you as a man. You end it because of HER choice, not yours.
She might admit. Then you can tell her you think you have it within you to forgive but she must make the choice, not you. Asked the question, does she want the marriage? If yes, then you both have some work to do. Go get help.
If no or maybe, then I suggest you seek divorce base on her decision and choice, not yours.
If yes, take sex off the table for a few months. Explain to your wife you need to work on YOU and learn how to be far more open, allow her to be most open to you.. In other words, you will need to start slowly building back your trust, addressing your fears, wisely watch her behavoirs and her transparancy, let her make that choice. You work on changing, learning to never again to allow your marriage to fall back into not being more loving, more caring, more giving, etc. And learn how to conflict far more effectivly. When you can do this, you won't get disqualifed unfairly, in secret, because her behavoirs won't be worthy of you before it happens. And if your ego and pride does not stand in the way, you can improve far more things about YOU.
In a short time, you can decided, if and when the OM's wife will know what YOU know. I beleive she should know. There are ways your wife will tell you who this man is and how to contact his wife. And you can always hire a detective or some do more research. But to stand firm once exposed, "Yes wife, the OM's W is going to know one way or another. It is part of the consequence because of my values. And if you cannot handle it, honey I will understand and you can make whatever choices you need to make. This is not about punishment, it is about fairness to another human." You can think about what I just said.
You had a bankruptcy and I am sure you learned. You can and will learn from this part of your life too. These things can make us far better or far worse, your choice.
I will tell you, in 3-5 years, you will be in a far different place. With or without you wife. These next 3-6 months are going to be filled with emotions and will be hard. In a year or so, it will gel a little better. In 3-5 years even better.. and if you change, your wife changes, you both can and will be a peace.
Remember, thoughts come before feelings. Work hard on those thoughts so your feelings will follow.
Peace be with you.
I was in a similar situation, the OM was fired and I could no longer keep track of him. I did a background check on him and got is current employment.
It didnt cost much and I had the information that day. I cannot find who I used, but it was a one time deal, no monthly subscription stuff.
Let us help you!
I still haven't confronted her. Still working on finding om's wife, plus I'm not sure how I'm going to go about it exactly.
Like I said before, her and I talked a couple times about our marriage last week. I initiated. Brought it up to see if she would break down, she didn't. I do think it put it in her head that I may know something. But she's not asking too many questions or pressing me. I keep dropping small hints. I'm kidding myself I know. She went for a two hour walk with her advising whore friend the other night. I know it came up. She told me her friend showed her how to finger print lock her phone. Too late for that.
I should win an award for the acting job I'm doing now. I figure why not, she has for well over a year. We had a family night tonight. Her idea!! We haven't had one in forever. She's full of shit I know she may have an inkling I know and she wants to act like a family and I may cave in when it comes time to confront or I'll go easy on her. That was hard to get through. Only did it for my kid.
So, I'm working on it. If I can't 100% find OM wife by mid week I'm going to confront without it. I can't keep it in much longer. I need to move forward. This really sucks. I still can't believe it. I know so many fucked up guys who treat their wives like shit. Demean them, ridicule them in front of people and kids etc. I have never even called my wife a bitch during a fight let alone anything else. How the hell does this happen to me? Whatever was wrong with our marriage shouldn't have deserved this result. Fucked up.
Thank you all for trying to help me with this. I really do appreciate it.
There's this site called, namefromphone.com, if you have his number you could get lucky and it gives you a name?
Keep us updated.
"The Secret of Change is to focus all your energy - not on fighting the old, but on building the new" ~~Lori Greiner FB post~~
Also, print off the texts and hide them away from your home.
what happened to me:
I confronted my spouse,
He immediately contacted OW
She told her H how I was crazy.
I did not tell my H family to help save face, so he told them everything I ever did wrong in my life so now they don't talk to me and won't listen to me, didn't even believe he had an affair until very recently.
Her H thought (still thinks) nothing was going on.
I wanted to show OBS the subpoenaed texting records and before I could, my WS atty got the judge to put a restraining order on me prohibiting me from showing these to anyone.
It really wakes up WS when the s**t hits the fan at once (Spouse of OM) and explodes and their lives are exposed.
This is what you want. A total wake up call.
Affairs are like mold and mushrooms, they thrive in the dark, when exposed by daylight they wither and die.
I think it is odd your wife would tell you this if she is trying to be so secretive. It sort of sounds like your wife wants you do discover the affair and stop it. That might sound odd, but reading enough on here from other WW's, that is not terribly uncommon.
I hope you can find the wife of the OM soon so you can get this out in the open and go from there. Wherever there leads to.
Do you know anyone from her workplace that can give you more info?
1) Go to Walmart and buy a new baseball hat, shirt and sunglasses. If you don't have a good camera, buy a cheapo one with a good telephoto zoom lens as well.
2) Buy a cheap motorola cell phone using a prepaid plan. Turn on the GPS feature and turn off all sound prompts on the phone and hide it in her car. Activate the GPS feature and then you will be able to track her. For details see here http://gizmodo.com/5691724/how-to-track-your-vehicle-on-the-cheap
2) You know your WW's patterns. The next day she is scheduled to meet OM, rent a car for the day and park it around the corner from your home.
3) Once she leaves, go around the corner, hop into the new car with your disguise and FOLLOW her.
4) Once she stops the car and gets out, snap as many photos as you can. Of the OM, his car, anything. Photos of them together, the hotel they go into, etc.
Stay cool. Once you get this information, you will have a lot more basis. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE listen to other posters. Don't confront until you have enough good evidence. Else they will simply go farther underground.
I hope "getting my ducks in a row" is still the answer.
The biggest part of getting your ducks in a row is seeing an attorney right now.
When I gave my attorney om's phone number - I knew everything the next day. Attorneys have investigative resources. Contacts. You will know.
Shouldering the investigative effort to find his wife - hold off on that. Let your attorney find her.
It's a "twofer" really.
You protect yourself AND get info.
Please see an attorney and lay it all out.
Sending you "Oscar-worthy" strength!
You're going to be ok man.
We are here for you. Listening.
Getting an attorney will take a load off.
Do it.
I got the Oscar ready. You're good.
Step by step brother. You got this.
She doesn't love me anymore
Did she say this to you last night?
Affairs can be such a ridiculous fantasy until the moment of truth when it is all out in the open. Especially when the OM throws the WW under the bus.
Good luck on that search. I remember the feeling well, waiting with that I got you now anticipation.
The woman you married is not the same woman before you now. Think of her as someone doped up on a drug. Because thats exactly what Affairs are -- being high on a drug. The behaviours and patterns that she is showing you now is unrecognizable.
I guarantee that once you expose this affair, the shit will hit the fan. You will see real fear in her voice. She will tremble at your feet. Then, and only then, will the real woman you married will reveal herself to you.
Until that time point, do not take anything she says to heart. The marriage may be over, but it may not. We are here to help save your marriage, and HELP YOU TO DECIDE whether you want to stay or not.
Keep digging, let us know what you find out.
It is unreal how a WW can act and especially during an affair.
[This message edited by craig2001 at 8:05 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)]
Perhaps this will give you some ideas and help.
If you have been laying hints, expressing your values of fidelity, love, caring and giving.. with her reactions of her taking her secret into far being more careful.. fingerprint her phone. It does not sound like she will confess. Take some pride in yourself for giving her an opportunity to be more open with you.
It is OK to accept that. Your good will come in time. This will only be temporary pain.
Perhaps you should now begin a plan of what you are going to say and do when you confront.
If it were me, I would go ahead and get my legal stuff in order first. Totally with jjct's post. An evil woman in fear will take all your money quickly. And yes, she is living her life in evil right now.
Completely read the 180 behaviors and make sure you follow each and every one. Be ready. Because for some odd reason, when you stand strong, she most likely will find that most attractive. She might try and use sex to lure you back. And that is fine, but until you know for sure she wants a marriage not based in only sex, or tricks, lies, but rather only in all the loves, she cannot be worthy of you unless complete honesty now. You will be presenting her from a standpoint of strenght and good values.
I am not big on following or tracking. It is too much work and wears on your mental health. Let someone else you hire do that work and just give you a report if you must know. It will be worth the dollars. It really does not matter who.. It matters she already is this person and you already know.
If you take an attitude of being.. I am worthy of being treated fairly and I will eliminate anyone in my life who is not worthy of joining in my own happiness. I accept life is not always fair. But I can dust myself off and change.
IMO, A good strong man will just lay the papers down for her to sign or at he least say this is our end.
Perhaps with a comment like this. Wife, my value is fidelity. This document is your choice, not mine. I am sorry you make this choice. It is not the choice I wanted for me, our kids, our friends and family. (A bone, a flickr of hope, love always hopes, if you can handle it and still want your marriage. She might awake.) I believe I can and will try to forgive you no matter what happens in should this now be the end. At that time.. NO LONG discussions. Be patient.
Then 100% the 180. Begin to be independent and move on. Listen and observe.
You just gave her what her fears could not do from the beginning. A piece of your wife really wants this marriage, for whatever reason. But a piece does not. A strong stance will give you the answer you need.
A woman will make her choice to stay married or not. A maybe is a no.
What you then look for is a person who will immediately dump the OM. They will seek a refuge, not with the OM, but seek out why she did what she did. She will answer all your questions, you will know who this OM is and why she started her relationship. She will want to be honest. She will seek help, counseling, giving you an apology, asking for forgiveness, perhaps turning to God, accepting the fact she made a huge mistake and decides on her own to change. You will see it, with her own behaviors because she will want to share these with you. It will come in the form of cards, attention to you. She will not play games any more.
Be warned. The degree of the coming pain will depend on whether you both confront the situation head on or choose to avoid it. Unfortunately, many people will choose to live in limbo instead of moving forward into a more passionate and purposeful life. Limbo = misery
Peace brother.
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:50 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)]
IMO, A good strong man will just lay the papers down for her to sign or at he least say this is our end.
Perhaps with a comment like this. Wife, my value is fidelity. This document is your choice, not mine. I am sorry you make this choice. It is not the choice I wanted for me, our kids, our friends and family. (A bone, a flickr of hope, love always hopes) I believe I can and will try to forgive you no matter what happens in should this now be the end.
Then 100% the 180. Begin to be independent and move on. Listen and observe.
You just gave her what her fears could not do from the beginning. A piece of your wife really wants this marriage, for whatever reason. But a piece does not. A strong stance will give you the answer you need.
A woman will make her choice to stay married or not. A maybe is a no.
What you then look for is a person who will immediately dump the OM. They will seek a refuge, not with the OM, but seek out why she did what she did. She will answer all your questions, you will know who this OM is and why she started her relationship. She will want to be honest. She will seek help, counseling, giving you an apology, asking for forgiveness, perhaps turning to God, accepting the fact she made a huge mistake and decides on her own to change. You will see it, with her own behaviors because she will want to share these with you. It will come in the form of cards, attention to you. She will not play games any more.
Be warned. The degree of the coming pain will depend on whether you both confront the situation head on or choose to avoid it. Unfortunately, many people will choose to live in limbo instead of moving forward into a more passionate and purposeful life. Limbo = misery
Perhaps with a comment like this. Wife, my value is fidelity. This document is your choice, not mine. I am sorry you make this choice. It is not the choice I wanted for me, our kids, our friends and family. (A bone, a flickr of hope, love always hopes) I believe I can and will try to forgive you no matter what happens in should this now be the end.
Then 100% the 180. Begin to be independent and move on. Listen and observe.
You just gave her what her fears could not do from the beginning. A piece of your wife really wants this marriage, for whatever reason. But a piece does not. A strong stance will give you the answer you need.
A woman will make her choice to stay married or not. A maybe is a no.
What you then look for is a person who will immediately dump the OM. They will seek a refuge, not with the OM, but seek out why she did what she did. She will answer all your questions, you will know who this OM is and why she started her relationship. She will want to be honest. She will seek help, counseling, giving you an apology, asking for forgiveness, perhaps turning to God, accepting the fact she made a huge mistake and decides on her own to change. You will see it, with her own behaviors because she will want to share these with you. It will come in the form of cards, attention to you. She will not play games any more.
Be warned. The degree of the coming pain will depend on whether you both confront the situation head on or choose to avoid it. Unfortunately, many people will choose to live in limbo instead of moving forward into a more passionate and purposeful life. Limbo = misery
I second this....particularly the limbo.
It is important that you keep moving, and keep taking action. Hopefully you will find the OM's wife soon. Even if you can't reach her, you can approach your wife. Just be prepared to follow through whatever path she chooses. This is not a game of chicken...waiting for the first to flinch...this is your life and future, and what you want from this point forward.
Please don't feel either powerless, or in a position of weakness compared to your wife. Not only are you two equal, but you are superior at the present...for obvious reasons. Don't think otherwise.
While you are still waiting for more info on OM and OMW doesn't mean you should sit by waiting. Here are some things you can do in the meantime:
- Carefully plan out D-day. Write out an itinerary down to the minute.
- You will likely need someone trustworthy to watch your son on D-day.
- Backups of any evidence. Create a new Gmail account and upload any kind of evidence that you have to this account. Obviously keep this account a secret from WW. Print out any pics, emails, etc and store them in a safe deposit box
- On D-day you will need her to make some sort of choice (her or OM). You will need an empty suitcase to make this more dramatic.
- Decide how you will expose. What close friends, family, etc will you expose to and how? Best to do is via email or voice mail, all within a short time. Keep it short and to the facts. Write out a script for yourself, or a draft email. Tell them you want their help in saving the marriage and that your WW has been unfaithful.
- Start moving money. Slowly start doing cash withdrawals in small amounts and storing it to avoid raising her suspicion. You may need access to cash quickly. Don't do anything funny with joint accounts yet.
- Create a new bank account in your name only
- Get your son's passport and put it in a safe place
- Print out statements from all of the joint accounts (CDs, IRAs, savings, etc) in case she decides to bolt with money
- Avoid confronting at home alone. Do you have a friend who can come be with you on that day?
- Your WW will likely immediately call 1) OM and 2) her slutty friend after D-day. Get a couple of VARs from walmart and place them strategically around the house and in her car on D-day to get a sense of what she is planning with these two. Test out the VAR a few times before the actual day.
I think I am/was really close to finding him. He disconnected the phone number I had for him 5 days ago. The Verizon store he did it at was 3 miles from the address I assume is his. I think that's it. Too coincidental. But, i just found he had another phone back in may 2012. I went back ony wife's text on her old phone( I bought her a new one for xmas) and saw it. That was the beginning of the "courtship". Starting with compliments and flirting. Anyway, he burns through phones. I'm assuming my wife has an inkling I know something since I've all of a sudden started to talk about our marriage in vague terms. She must have alerted him Along with finger print locking her new phone. Ran another check on phones. Actually talked to the investigator at docusearch. He said couldn't get address with subscription phones. Need to find this omw!!!
So is your goal to serve her soon?
Serve her at work?
Blow up her Affair to family and friends?
I think you are getting to OMW.
Is her phone an iphone5S?
Currently you have 20 posts.
It will not be possible to track down the OM or OMW using the phone numbers. You will have to do it the old fashioned way: by PI or by following them around.
Also consider hiding a GPS device. TrackStick Mini is one of the best and you can store in her car and then retrieve later. You will then be able to see exactly where she drove to and how long she stopped. Does not require subscription, but data is not in real time however and requires actual retrieval of the GPS device. Costs about $290. If you want real-time GPS tracking see my earlier post.
Keep at it. They will slip up sooner or later and you will get them. Don't jump the gun until you get some good evidence.
Also - you do not need to 'serve' her the D papers. Just ask your Attorney for a copy of the same papers that they will file as a reference copy. These are not official but you can show them to her on the day of confront. This will be a huge slap in the face to her when she sees the papers in real life.
I looked into tracking devices. Why can't I just put a burner phone in her car and turn it on? Silenced for sure. I can retrieve it very easily to charge. I'm telling you she's not very smart. She won't know. I don't want to use it to track them together to catch them, I already have that. I'm thinking IF I decide to let her stay to see IF we can move forward I need to be able to track her. Obviously I can't believe what she says.
Rocket, are you for sure filing for Divorce? I thought I read you wanted to R first and see what happens.
You are spending an incredible amount of time on the OMW.
Deal with your wife now and confront her about the affair. You WILL get to the OMW sooner or later.
If you need to, follow the OM home from work and then you have the address.
Are you even sure this OM is married and if so how did you know that.
I did not go through this part myself, the OM wasnt married, he just had his third divorce about a year before he screwed up my life.
I don't know where he works now , what he looks like, two cell phones were burners and I think I have his address but not 100% on that. Very common name too. Even though this is killing me to keep in I do have time on my side. She's not going anywhere. It's just how much I can take.
I did make a mistake though and tell her I wanted to change some things in our marriage. This was very unusal of me. I only did that to see what reaction she would have. Now it's become a nightly "joke " that she says love you or have a good day. It's all very forced and stupid. All that did was alert her to thinking I may know something. I know she probably alerted him and he shut off his phone a few days ago. Still have my proof though and the hunt continues.
If you dont want to confront her yet, than act normal.
How does your wife meet this OM, when and where?
I dont know if it is legal anymore, but if you could get his license plate number, you have the address.
Just breathe.
I know it seems impossible to think.
Even though you think you tipped her off..just chill. They don't KNOW anything yet.
Can you get a PI? The one I called was only going to charge 500. Everyone is hurting for $$$ right now.
What happened to my friend in an absolute best case scenerio:
H of OW suspected affair.
Got proof from PI.
PI got the contact info of my friend,
H of OW showed up at my friend's when H wasn't home.
H of OW gave my friend info and she used the same PI.
They both busted their spouses at the same time.
There was no wiggle room for these two waywards.
That is what you want.. no wiggle room.
Even if your wife thinks you are on to something,, you are lucky in that you DO have proof so she can't gaslight you.
This is some good info for you:
[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 9:42 AM, February 26th (Wednesday)]
You need to recognize that right now you are in grief. The beginning is shock. It is a time when any man is most rattled. Please know you are emotionally rattled right now.
Need to find this omw!!!
15 years ago, I lived next door to a man whose wife was in an affair with her co-worker. In anger, he went to the place of business, got into an argument with the OM. His wife left with him and later that night he strangled her, took her to a local pond, and sunk her to the bottom. Then went home in a few short hours shot himself in the head.
3 years ago, a man a few neighborhoods down from my neighborhood discovered his wife was in an affair with his neighbor. He took his gun and busted down the OMs door. The OM had a gun too. He shot and killed the betrayed spouse. Then he turned the gun on himself and shot himself.
My co-worker discovered his wife having an affair. As the OM drove by him not long after his discovery, they flipped each other off. The OM stopped and yelled you want a piece of me? My co-work got out and punched the guy, broke his nose, bloodied his eye sockets. He was lucky and did not get arrested, but it was violence.
And me, I had thoughts to run my car into my OMs office and open up on him. To harm his son, so he could also feel the pain I felt. With care for me, my best friend happen to call me at the right time, worried and caring about me, he came over and took my gun from me. It is the shock from grief. He forced me to call a councilor. I did.
I am gong to tell you what my councilor did for me. He asked me to form a plan when I do see the OM. The plan was to turn and walk away. She said, the OM is not worthy of any conversation. She was right, I am right.
Rocket, your plan, be a masculine man, turn and walk away. Dont be a pussy. A pussy is those men I described above. Including myself at one point of emotional breakdown.
I am going to tell you what will happen.
When her sin is finally exposed... she will either turn to you and your strength. Or she will try to hide from her sin and hide from you.
Either way, this will only be a blip of pain in your life if you are masculine. It will only be temporary pain unless YOU allow it to be permanent.
I will say again, if she tries to hide from you and her sin, You can make a good masculine choice, No, I dont have anyone close to me who cannot be intimate. Any woman part of my life and join me in my happiness. Period. If you get stuck in limbo, chasing a woman like this, you will stay in misery. There are a whole bunch of quality women thrown away by bad men. And if you stay quality yourself, and seek it, you will attract and be blessed with a good woman who wants to join you in a happy life.
A hard question. Can I handle still being Married to a women who committed infidelity and all that comes with it?
So you know, I will tell you what it means should you decide you can handle it, and your does wife turn toward you in strength, not away.
For many months to follow... For me, these went on for over three years..
- you are going to have times where your mind will take you to her sex with this OM. In time, these thoughts will fade. In a few short years, you will accept.
- you are going to think about all these situations you could have done differently.
- you are going to get angry at your wife over many of her behaviors. If you are ready, you can do certain things and handle it.
- You are going to have triggers. Pictures, objects, movies, songs.. the list is not short. These thoughts are going to cause feelings. You can learn to deal with them or not.
- Your ego is damaged. Shame. A stigma because YOU could not satisfy your wife. You can learn to accept and know, so people are not always loving or loyal. You cannot control the choices and decision others make. Life is not always fair. There is NEVER an excuse for betray anyone. Accept that or not.
- You will not have safe feelings for a long time. Trust is always a choice, but feelings are feelings. Someone who decides to change can behave in ways were your safe feelings will return. In time, you can decide to trust more and more, depending on her behaviors.
- You will lose some Possessiveness.
What do you think your choice about YOU will be? It can be made today. Right now.
My wife has an inkling I know something since I've all of a sudden started to talk about our marriage in vague terms.
Might I suggest a quick conversation with your wife maybe something like this.. Give her pressure. Make her react.
Wife, I have been giving some thoughts to our talk the other day. Our vow, I know being human, we are not always the best. But too me, it really is about effort. I want to make a far better effort. I am going to tell you I have this strange gut feeling inside me. Is there anything you want an need to tell me so we can move toward a better marriage?
Or maybe this..
Wife, I look at our marriage and believe strongly that our vows are something we give each other to cherish. I cherish our vows, and will always have this value. Do you also have the same value?
Or pressure along those lines. Keep them very short, not some long deep discussions. She might confess.
Be ready for it. Me, I might say I knew. But know love always hope. I have it within myself to forgive, to accept. But it is really up for you to decide wife. There are things you must do. Eliminate this man in your life. Let him go this minute. Now. Never contact him again. Commit to me this moment in time and leave that behind you. Can you call him right now and let him know, I know, and you have made the choice to work on the marriage. Who is he? My morality says his wife must know, it is so she no longer lives her life in a lie. If you cannot tell me, that is ok too, I will find her one way or another. She is going to know. And you can find out with your wife choice to keep the marriage or without.
You will get your answer quickly. You must fear it right? I did. Do not think she has not already given this day thoughts, how she is going to react, what she is going to tell you. She knows which direction it going. She might be conflicted, confused, but a strong man knows his worth.. your value, you are worthy of only someone who commits 100% and not confused. That is true masculinity.
Might you be uncomfortable with now being open yourself. Successful marraiges are most open, it good times and bad. Be if forced or not. When you have the ablity to lead your wife to wanting to most open, only then will you have the best possible intimate marriage. Learning to open a woman up is not easy.
Change is a "given" for us all in life. Your life is in that given, we all face. You will be fine if you choose to be fine.
Peace brother.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:39 AM, February 26th (Wednesday)]
You've gotten some great advice from trynhard and homewrecked. You want to spill the beans now, but are grasping at straws to find out the identity of OM and OMW. There are several rational reasons for getting to OMW before exposing to everyone else.
Exposure is only an effective way to kill an affair only when you can expose on BOTH sides (WW and OM). Exposing only to one side can also work, but is not nearly as effective. Your WW will be in a state of deep shock on the day of confront. She will look to OM for comfort. By exposing to OMW right before, you will exert pressure on both sides to choke the affair out of existence.
IF you are confident that you know enough other friends of OM, then you don't necessarily need to find out who OMW is right now. But this means you would need to know who the OM is close to (family, religious leaders, etc). Sounds like you don't have enough info on this guy yet (or even his real name). Exposure to close friends of OM will put a lot of pressure and shame on him.
Part of the fun of being in an A is the secrecy. Sneaking away at night, whispering to someone else who says "I love you" on the phone. Not being able to tell anyone. These features of an A make them quite intoxicating. But as soon as the A is out in the open, the fun quickly evaporates.
Its your decision on when to expose, but having the support of OMW will make your affair-busting chances MUCH higher.
Why can't I just put a burner phone in her car and turn it on?
See my previous post
If you want to buy a cheap burner phone, then follow the instructions above. You can then splice the power wire into your fuse box so that it has constant power.
Rocket - what happened with the search?
Where does your wife meet this guy at if he does not work with her anymore?
Still haven't confronted. Can you believe it's been 3 weeks almost. I just all the buttons at my fingertips if/when it all gets crazy. I'm definitely going after her friends no matter what. Paybacks a bitch!!!
It sounds like this guy rents and that is hard to track down. He might even have a PO Box and with cell phones being the main phone, it could be very hard to track him down.
Docusearch should be able to get a current employer on this guy. You could then follow him home from work.
The only other public record I can think of using is the voter registration records, as far as I know they are public record and usually give some information.
That is why I ask how your wife even meets this guy in order to even have an affair.
Usually the revenge comes after the confronting the wife. You never know, she might want you to catch her, a lot of WW's have said that on here.
So, her phone is actually my phone. I own it i pay the bill. I'm sure there is a way I can track it without getting my hands on the actual phone. Anybody know how?
Still haven't confronted I want the omw first. I've decided that for sure. Tough finding his address. His new phone number gives me same results. No address. Subscription phone.
Also, we talked yesterday in general terms again because I love to see how she can look me in the eye and straight up lie to me. Anyway, she actually told me she's in limbo. She doesn't know what direction she wants to go in life. Still not knowing I know. I asked her specifically if she "wanted to work on our marriage just tell me yes I do and I'll do or see whoever to try to fix it" and she didn't commit 100%. I was trying to draw a reaction. I got one alright. I got pissed and told her I don't need to convince you your not my girlfriend your my wife. If you want to go don't let the door hit you in the ass. She says I took it the wrong way. Ya right. I'm her meal ticket.
Even more determined to blow everyone up. Digging my heels in. I'm thinking about call cell provider to block his number to her phone. Just to fuck with her and cause her angst. I don't care if he changes phones every week. On dday I'm going to shut her phone off before hand. Again, it's my phone. If/when she runs at least she'll panic for a while trying to figure out how to get a hold of everyone to alert them.
Btw, I honestly think they want to be together and are making plans. I do need to find more info on him because I want to run a background check on him for any criminal items. I'm thinking way down the line so I might be able to convince a judge that she only have visitation in my house or supervised. I would hope if he had a criminal record, along with the proof I already have, that he wouldn't put my son in that environment I know I'm jumping to conclusions but my mind is going a million miles per hour.
Anyway, back to my original question. How can I track her(my) phone? I don't care about VAR's and catching them in the act.
Thanks for all your support and advice. I consider it all.
I do not see why you cannot get a background check done. The previous employment along with the full name should get it done right now.
I also think you are going about this the wrong way IF you are still considering R.
And, do not talk to your wife right now. The answers you get are just making you mad and for no good reason.
Your wife is in the middle of an affair. An affair changes all reality. Her answers, her thoughts, her words do not matter at this time.
They are not her real thoughts. So stop talking to her about the future and about staying married.
Is there any way you can read these texts, since it is your phone. Do they ever meet in person?
I don't know where they meet. It's not certain place or times. I basically know where she is at all times and she leaves and is home when expected. Quickies in car etc. I don't care about that right now.
Docusearch should have been able to do a background check based on his name alone. I dont know if a background search gives addresses though. But you want a criminal record and that should work.
You are looking for this guys wife, are you entirely sure he is even married at this time?
I used docusearch for his last burner phone. They can't trace the subscription phones. Got his name only, which I had anyway. How can they do background check if all I have is name? Very common name at that. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Sit her down, very calmly, at your kitchen table - have your computer and or cell phone with you. You have an 8 year old son, correct? Let her know that she is going to do absolutely every you ask of her in the next ten minutes - no questions asked.
Then, look her right in the eye and tell her that you want the guy's address and home phone number. She'll know who you're talking about. When she realizes what it is you are asking for - she'll say no, of course. At that time just calmly say, "Give it to me, right now, in the next 30 seconds, or I'm filing for divorce tomorrow morning and I'm taking full custody of your son."
It doesn't matter that you would never be given that - the shock of the moment will not give her time to think it through - and all she'll see is her losing her son and her marriage. It won't take long for her to give you exactly what you want.
Don't give her time to think about it. "Right now, or it's over." Then, don't let her leave - plug the information into your computer right then and have her help you find the guy's wife. Then call the APW, with her sitting right next to you. Keep calling until you reach her, even if it takes all day.
In other words, use divorce and your child as ransom. Trust me, she'll give you everything you want - especially in the craziness of the moment. Remember - you're prepared. She's not.
Of course, she may absolutely refuse. No problem! The door is right behind you.
Just something to consider.
What your wife is telling you now is not real!
You have to understand that the fog of the affair is very real, and the words a WW says during an affair do not matter, they are not real!
Is this affair with them an EA or do you know for a fact it has been a physical affair?
And LifeisCrazy is correct, your wife might give you all of the information right now.
Your anger is now dangerous actually. Everyone on this board has gone through what you are at this time.
You need to confront your wife now calmly and tell her you know what has and is going on.
Then you need to be prepared for her lies and denials, it is as common as the sun coming up every morning. Then get ready for her anger, which is nothing but defensiveness hiding of real embarrassment. Since you know her anger is really her embarrassment, keep that in mind.
If you just want a divorce and no questions asked, then you do NOT need the OM's wife to know, because she will know soon enough. You should have already talked to a divorce lawyer by now.
Do you know if adultery is a crime in your state, it still is in some states, a few states. They just repealed in my state and I didnt even know it was a crime.
As for background checks, they are all over the internet with ads like check out your daughters new boyfriend etc. PeopleSmart has ads everywhere on Google.
Thank you again.
Affairs are kind of a delusional state. She has compartmentalized you and your son. The thing is, the two worlds generally have to collide to bust them out of the fog. She can't really see fully what she is doing. . . Trust me on that. If there is a shred of love in your heart for her past all of the hurt, then try to suspend judgement for a while.
But, you do need to out her, or let the OBS know. Forget the OM... It isn't about him anyway.
[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:56 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)]
I edit, therefore I am.
The shit she is saying and doing now - its all FOG so don't bother testing her. She is going to fail every time. Remorseful WS look back after D-day and are mortified/disgusted/repulsed by their behavior.
I know you are sickened right now. We have been there. The M can be better not bc of the A but in spite of it. But I know that is very difficult to believe right now.
Ask a trusted family/friend to take your son for a few hours and confront your wife.
Again, I think Life's post is sound advice.
Sorry that this is happening to you. No one should be put in this position and yet here we are. Please don't take this the wrong way but your posts seem to have a vengeful/old-testament feel to them. This sh*t can eat you up inside, crush your soul if your not careful. Especially if your WW is unremorseful. DON'T let her turn you into a monster, she isn't worth it. Plus she will use your actions against you in D when the time comes.
What do you want for yourself? What do you want for your family? IF you are certain that R is off the table then you already have all the information you need to begin the D. Everything else tends to come out later.
Protect yourself and your child. Don't worry about what happens to her or OM. God Bless you.
Here is what I would do:
- Call OM's former place of work posing as a new employer and ask to speak to the HR department. Say that you want to get dates of employment and title for OM and to verify employment.
- They will either confirm or say "who the hell is that?" At which point you will know that the names he has been using for the burner phones are fake.
- If they confirm his employment, ask if they can confirm middle initial and date of birth
- Once you confirm his name, and DOB, run a background check. Most of the for pay sites require only a name middle initial, state and DOB. You will then know if he had any prior criminal records.
I personally would not confront your WW until you have FIRST contacted OMW. The first person your WW will contact is OM. If you get to OMW first, then he will immediately throw your WW under the bus and she will have no where to go and will completely break down.
Keep calm during all of this, don't do anything that looks like you are losing your temper. If possible please call someone to be with you at the time of confront so that she can't claim you harmed her later. If possible hide a VAR on you at the time of confront in case she accuses you.
Rocket, when you make these phone calls, I hope you are remembering about caller ID. And that disabling it doesn't always work.
1) First you need to know her Apple ID. If you don't know her apple id it is probably the same as her main email address. If you don't know her password then you will need to get a key logger and find out. Hide a key logger on her main computer for a few days and you should be able to get the pw. Other option is to setup a hidden camera to watch her enter the pw
2) Once you have the Apple ID, type in the PIN to her phone and goto Settings > iCloud > turn on "Find my iPhone". As soon as you do this Apple will send an email to the address listed as the Apple ID. So be careful to logon to her email account and delete this.
3) Then once it is activated, you can track her location. Even if the screen is off on the phone you will be able to track her. As long as she is near a cell signal you can track the phone. Goto www.icloud.com and then type in the apple ID and pw. Then click on find my iPhone and you will see where she is in real time.
If she has an android phone then I'm not sure exactly how to track her.
ALSO DO NOT BLOCK OM's PHONE FROM HER PHONE. After confrontation (D-day) you will need some way to know if she is keeping NC or not. If you let her know that you are tracking and monitoring her phone then you won't know if she is truthful or not. On d-day just expose and then go dark on her. She will freak out and call you dozens of times, but don't answer. Not answering will freak her out more than if you were to block her.
You have done great job of controlling yourself in a terribly stressful situation, but you need to stop worrying about the scumbag OM and focus on getting rid of this woman who is lying every day to your face and betraying and disrespecting you 24/7. At this point, you have given her multiple opportunities to confess by asking if things are Ok, and she is choosing to continue to play you like a fool. It is time to let her have it with both barrels. I could see considering R if maybe she had come clean or if it was ONS, but you seem clear on correct that you need to dissolve this relationship.If you can notify the OM wife and blow up his marraige, go ahead, but don't torment yourself any more with all the detective work. You have all the information you need as far as she is concerned.
Do it man and walk away with your dignity. You will feel better in the long run.
Can you call a PI? My friend's dad was one and they very easily can pull up lots of info on the OM AND his wife.
Also, if you go on the investigative section of this site you can ask someone to do a search for you,, lots of people have paid subscriptions to do this for you.
Also, go and see the atty now. Find out your rights. You want to cut her off at every turn.
And what kept me from punching out OW was what will get you thru this, also. THe love of your son. No way was OW and my WH going to get the joy of seeing our so grow up with out me. For this reason alone I held my temper in check around them. I was not going to jail and miss all the awesome things in my child's life. I think you are there, too. I also NEVER gave OW an earful. It put her in her place -- the garbage ---and I don't talk to garbage. I she's always trying to get me to talk to her and I refuse.
Keep posting here.
woman who is lying every day to your face and betraying and disrespecting you 24/7.
I'm already there with my D and I understand the anger you are feeling and wanting to go this route as well. But even I am going to tell you that you should do this one step at a time. Channel your anger to motivation in finding the OMW. Follow the suggestions by the posters in your thread on how to find the OM's info. Something about this guy going through multiple burner phones tells me that this dude is some major con artist. Save your WW from that situation at the very least, then let her dig her way out of the hole she got herself into. You should hold off any contemplation of R or D until you blow the lid off the whole thing THE PROPER WAY. After which, you have every right to consider your future path, and you will be doing so with information and action from your WW that is not influenced by this dirt bag OM.
Right now, you are so much into your own WS fog that you can't properly evaluate your M to know if it is worth carrying forward into the future or not.
The way I found the OM address was I think committing fraud. I think today, you can get into a lot more trouble than even several years ago.
I called the company I knew he worked at and said I was with the health insurance company and we need OM Name home address. And I got it.
But in your case, the OM doesnt even work at the same job. Calling as a new employer calling about a reference could work also. But they wont give out a home address.
In my case, I am not even sure I got the correct home address anyway. The OM in my life had just divorced for the third time and was living with family. But I later found out the address he gave was fake and a block away.
If your OM is running and or hiding from creditors, you might not find him until you confront your wife calmly and she tells you.
Rocket's dday was about 3 weeks ago. That is an awfully long time be doing investigative work. If you step back it is important to remember that he probably works, is trying to deal with children, and - don't forget - his wife is in the house. Not so easy to slip off onto a computer and do background work without her asking, "Whatcha doin' in there?" And all this time - he still has to live with her and act like nothing is wrong... not so easy for many of us.
Sometimes all it takes to uncover evidence is a bit of hard work. But sometimes, you know what? It's just not that easy. Sometimes you're just not going to find what you're looking for.
There comes a time when you need to stop the crazy train that is your life and put an end to it. This is regardless of whether you've done things "by the book" or, certainly, the way that WE'D like it to be done. There's no question that finding out, and telling, the OM's wife is preferable - it's the right thing to do, we'd all agree. But guess what? Sometimes it just can't be done.
It's ok to do things in a different manner. If the AP can't be found - so be it. The only thing Rocket is accountable for is himself and his children. While it is nice to go through the entire process of finding out, alerting the OM's wife and whatnot - those are really ancillary to the big picture of saving himself, his kids, and, possibly, his marriage.
My recommendation? Stop the craziness. Sit her down and make immediate, firm demands that give her no wiggle room. Blow it out of the water by confronting aggressively and when she's not expecting it. Write down a list of what you require - immediately - and that may very well include the name, address, etc. of his wife. It's your life and it's your call.
Just my thoughts...
ETA: hate spelling/context errors :(
[This message edited by LifeisCrazy at 12:06 PM, March 3rd (Monday)]
You can still inform OM's wife after you confront but it is time to stop letting the affair continue while you search for losers address
Good luck
Stop the craziness. Sit her down and make immediate, firm demands that give her no wiggle room.
Just stay calm. Your wife will not just come out of the fog and start talking rationally. That takes time. Truth can take time.
Just dont let excuses, lies, rewriting history or blame shifting by her get to you.
If you think its going to take too long to find out identity of OMW, then go ahead and confront now.
Force WW to give you complete identity of OM and his address at the moment of confront. This is the most likely time you will get truth from her. She will then try to deny and then go underground with OM. Be ready for anything. Keep a VAR on you during the confront. If she spills the details on OMW, then immediately expose any evidence you have with OMW.
Let us know what happens
I have always considered myself a strong man. I can take alot both physically and mentally. Today is the day that this has taken me to my knees. I'm sure it's part of the process. I know I will stand up and be strong again, I have no choice. I will move on.
Just know that the pain of all of this will lessen with time. Sometimes you just gotta feel it so that you can let it go.
Take Care.
You have still not done what you said in your FIRST POST.
"Get your ducks in a row"
You have not done that.
IF you confront now, before doing that...oy vey brother.
One thing is missing from your posts. It's the thing I and many many others have recommended to you.
you have not done that>>>>therefore, your ducks are NOT in a row.
Why are you holding off on that?
I am with jjct and his recommendation. You must protect yourself. Be prepared the day you confront by transfering the money you need to protect yourself. At the very least, make sure your assets cannot be stolen.
When a person is living in evil, they are not thinking fairly.
It sound like you cannot live married with what your wife has done. Rightly justified. It is OK to move on in life. It will only be temporary pain. I know you are a stong man and will handle this in the highest of integraty. Stay away from OM. He is not worthy to even speak to a high quality man, YOU. In time, you will likely know the OM's W and maybe she already knows too.
I think to be at a great peace, you move on. Protect yourself and your son.
If it were me, When you do expose, you asked your wife to move out. She might. Say you will make arrangement to protect your son from her bad behavoirs. You don't want your child to grow up with values of hiding. All she needed to do was come tell you she wanted another man. You could have taken it. That kind of comment will make her react, maybe to look hard at herself and her evil.
I do wish you courage. The fear inside you must be horrendous. Courage will always beat fear. Courage is having all lined up to confront and do it.
I will say this, when you do expose, your W might find you most attractive. Be careful and take it very slow. It is best you go get help and an individual counselor.
Because your wife may come to you because you are strong. If she does, you take it slow to make sure she will want a more loving, caring, giving and intimate marriage. You can have much happiness continuing your Marriage. I have it. You can asked her to now start to be most open to you and some things she will need to tell you will be most uncomfortable for her. Like, the name of this man and his wifes name. In time, you might want to listen carefully the reason she could not be so open. In time, you work to change you. In time, you will see if she is able to be Open.
And it is very likely you were very quality to begin with and she lost her way. If that is the case, and if you had enough, you cannot get to what you both once had, you change and begin a new more happy life.
You have no clue nor can know if she will hide more. Let her hide. Her choice. A quality man does not allow a woman who hides a part of his life. He make this woman no longer part of his everyday world. A marriage is supposed to be most open. If you accept living in hiding, limbo, misery will continue. You be quality and stay quality. Move forward and put all this behind you. Soon it will only be a blip in your life.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:38 AM, March 4th (Tuesday)]
Separation for a period of time is not necessarily a bad thing.
[This message edited by twisted at 10:22 AM, March 4th (Tuesday)]
My wife woke up.. she had her awakening. In my case, she told me a HUGE weight was lifted. The guilt does wear on a person. No matter what direction she chooses.
My wife is walking around with an attitude like she's in control since I falsely told her I wanted our marriage to work out a couple weeks ago. Haven't spoke about it since and I won't. Now we barely talk. I can't stand to listen to daily babble when I know what she's doing behind my back. Just want to find omw and then I'm ready to confront. In going to have divorce papers drawn up do I have copy to give her so she knows I'm not fucking around. She has the balls to tell me she's in limbo. Not in my house.
My wife is walking around with an attitude like she's in control since
She is not normal at this time and you need to realize this. You NEED to stop paying attention to what she says and how she acts at this time. The only important things she says are after you tell her you know of the affair.
I am surprised you have not confronted her yet. I am surprised you have not put a gps tracker in her car. If you did that, there is a good chance the gps info would lead you right to the OM house. And then you could finally find the OMW.
To be honest, in all my years on and off reading on here and living this hell. I have never seen anyone let an affair go on so long before confronting.
As far as "letting" the affair go on for this long, I don't really care. I wanted to get my info together before dday. And there were days i was probably in denial. I mean what's the difference, it's been going on since 2012 anyway. If I never would have found out it would still be going on anyway. And, it's not like I even care if he's still nailing her because she's not the wife that I used to love anyway. Plus, I know for sure they haven't been together physically since I found out 3 weeks ago. She hasn't had time. She leaves same time everyday and is home everyday same time. I use an excuse to call her right before she leaves work to check. I guess she could leave working during the day and screw him but I don't have the energy to track her down everywhere. That's why I'm really leaning toward divorce. I don't think it's fair to me to have to always wonder where she is, track her, babysit her etc on top of running my business, coaching my sons teams and raising him etc. What kind of life is that for me? I'm the most unselfish person you'll ever meet and I'm living with the most narcisstic person ever. Not a good match. I'll never trust her and will only cause more stress on myself. If she was an awesome mother I could justify it at least She does only the bare minimum. Screw that.
Also, I understand I probably should have done a few things differently already. Obviously I've never been in this type of situation before. There are a lot of different voices in my head.
You da man rocket, you da man.
It is far more destructive than many so-called crimes that remain on the books.
When I do confront I will not shed a tear. She will know I am not fucking around and will not even recognize who she's dealing with. I told her a long time ago that I can take a lot and hold a lot it, but one day someone is going to cross me one too many times and look out. Little did I know it was going to be with her. I'm not talking physical confrontation either. That's one of the reasons I'm going to lawyer tomorrow. I want papers drawn up. I'm just going to confront her and dropped the papers on her. Very business like. . I'm not going to give her all my info either. I want cards to play as the whole thing plays put over time. Every time she thinks I don't have any more I want to hit her with something else.
She's made the decision, not me. These are the consequences. It may even be what she wants. I hope so. It will make it easier.
One piece of advice. Have a voice activated recorder with you. She is not going to be appreciative of the gift you are about to give her. Please be alert for a charge of domestic violence! Even innocent, there's hell to pay initially. With the VAR, she will be setting herself up.
I'm glad you're seeing the lawyer. Get everything ready for the confront this weekend. Things can get hectic, so make everything ready.
Get some cash and store it safely in case she decides to empty the joint banking accounts. Store your credit cards in a safe place. Get your son's passport and store it away.
On confront day, as soon as she spills the beans, go ahead and expose right away, without warning. Get some luggage packed for her and tell her she either stops contact with OM or she needs to leave the house.
MOST IMPORTANT: STAY STRONG!!!! Don't breakdown in front of her. No tears, no whining, no begging, no pleading. Show cold indifference to her. If she senses even for a second that you are weak, she will continue to walk over you.
We are here for you brother. Keep posting and let us know how it goes.
I'd never have spent the money on a wedding dress if I knew I was just going to a costume party.
We are all pulling for you. I second the VAR at confrontation though. You absolutely have to protect yourself. Remember this person is not who you believed her to be, she could do anything, she is not predictable.
((((and strength))))
I have some thoughts about d day. I've read everyone's posts. Doesn't it make me look weak if I even ask for explanation? Or demand she give me OM info? That would infer to her that I'm open, or hoping, to reconcile. I don't think she should pick up on that at first. Then she's just going to tell me what I want to hear. She's going to know she can get back in. Screw that. I guess I need to figure out if I'm even interested in reconciling or hearing what she has to say first.
I'm thinking I'm going to just put a copy of the phone bill and a picture of him on the table and ask her if she's knows anything about this ? Im not playing my big cards first. If she lies or babbles, I set down divorce papers and tell her she decided this the first time he put his dick in her. I'm just following through and I'm done being her safety net. That's it. No big confrontation. She will probably run. She knows where to find me.
Am I wrong or what ?
Then the "we were just friends" crap. And then when I told her I knew more, she become more defensive, which is a sign of lies and complete embarrassment, which is what you might get in the first 10 minutes. So you might expect it and disregard it.
Affairs are a complete fantasy fairy tale world, and that is why your wife has been walking around with a chip on her shoulder. And you are about to knock it off. And that is going to shock the stuff out of her and her world.
Forget about they whys at this time, usually the whys are the hardest answers to get and usually the WS doesn't even know why they did it.
Just the facts is what usually works at this time. What you should ask mostly are just questions to where only black and white facts are the answer. Emotional type questions like the why did you, usually take some time to get to.
Many months later, my WW confided in me that she admired that I stood my ground on confront day. The strength and resolve that I showed was impressive to her. The fact that I was fighting for her and the marriage later made her feel like she made the right decision to R. WW also told me that the fact that I was already 10 steps ahead of her on D-day made her completely cringe in fear of what I could do next. She was shit-scared no doubt.
This all boils down to a simple decision by you: whether or not YOU WANT TO R. This is highly dependent upon how she answers the questions in the first few moments after confront starts. If she starts to deny, gaslight or make excuses, simply hold your palm out and say "STOP IT. I know the truth. I know more than you think I know. Start telling me the truth or its all over." Keep repeating this line over and over, until you can say it with a sense of coldness.
Your WW will definitely freak on confront day. I suggest that you type out all of your questions on a piece of paper and hit her with the questions immediately after confront. Try to limit the questions to no more than 5. (Top on my list would be name, address and contact details for OMW). If she balks or refuses to answer, then here are some supplemental things to do:
1) Practice the line above with the extended palm
2) Get D papers ready and show it to her. Tell her that the attorney is ready to file them as soon as the county clerk's office is open.
3) Have some of your friends/family that you exposed to start calling her during the first 30-60 mins of the confront. Have them call and urge her to return to the marriage.
4) Get a suitcase ready and fill it with her clothes and leave it out on the front porch
5) Get her credit cards and start cutting them up in front of her
6) Get your wedding ring and start pounding it with a hammer. Next ask for her ring so that you can pound it and then sell it.
Hope all goes well
Then I stayed REALLY strong. About a month later he said he was thinking about coming back home. (I later found out OW had dumped him). I told him ONLY with counseling. Period. He would have had to go for 6 months and own his own shit before he could come back.
Keeping his family together wasn't worth it, and my children and I are much better off without a false recovery.
Most all of us on this site are the "nice" ones in the marriages. The WS have crossed the line of respect over and over in our marriages. Standing up for ourselves is the perfect way to handle this.
You paint a picture of a woman that is using you as her meal ticket. Do you know if she is providing for him?
You really should find a way to follow her. I know you don't care about catching them in the act. Don't...just follow him afterward to see where he works and lives.
Most people confront because they want verification of what they suspect. Your wife already knows the truth and so do you. All you really need to do is to file for divorce. If she wants that, then you are ahead of the game and it will be over the sooner for it. If she doesn't want to divorce, you will be in a position to demand answers from her.
The only reason for outing the "lovebirds" to the OM's wife is to break up the affair. And it may not even do that. If you are set on divorce you do NOT need to talk to her at all.
If you want to reconcile, you understand that it takes two of you to do that. Right now that doesn't seem to be happening. Filing for divorce will force her to make up her mind about it. You can always cancel the divorce proceedings if you choose to.
Filing for divorce isn't always the right thing to do, but in your situation it seems to be a win for you either way. Just remember, you do NOT have to confront her with your evidence. Keep it to yourself. Just let her know that you do in fact have evidence. Confrontation will only lead to more "gaslighting". Divorce papers can't be argued with or rugswept. She may try to put the blame on you -- all you have to do is to tell her that you both know the truth and the time for fog is over.
Just my two cents.
[This message edited by sidney2718 at 3:42 PM, March 7th (Friday)]
The only reason for outing the "lovebirds" to the OM's wife is to break up the affair.
It is to give another one of us (a BS) the truth.
Rocket, didn't your L say anything about having PI contacts?
Together 7 years
1 doggie
DDay: June 24, 2013
I told the OBS and they had already gotten to him. He cussed me out, told me to lose his fn number, etc. Everytime I tried to tell him, he slammed down the phone on me. Even though his XW and my XH live together now, I'm not sure he really believes anything was going on before the D.
[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 7:05 AM, March 8th (Saturday)]
I feel like my wife sees my kindness as weakness. I have never been verbally cruel to her. I have never even called her a bitch, ever. I just have never seen the need. I've always tried to take the high road. I know, in my case, she's not going to expect me to be demanding of any consequences for her. I've never pressed her into anything. Ever since I talked tonher in general terms about our marriage a couple of weeks ago and told her I wanted to work on it and we both shed tears, she has treated me differently. Like I'm weak and she's in control. She doesn't know I only acted that out to draw a reaction/confession. I didn't get it and wish I never would have done it.
When I do confront I will not shed a tear. She will know I am not fucking around and will not even recognize who she's dealing with. I told her a long time ago that I can take a lot and hold a lot it, but one day someone is going to cross me one too many times and look out. Little did I know it was going to be with her.
Sound just like me. I think you have a great plan figured out. Your right, it will probably be in the first minute whether you'll know if you want to reconcile. I would hold a few facts that you know to yourself, that way if you do want to reconcile you can test her truthfullness later into R. Im hoping the best for you! Be strong!
I thought I might share the possible reactions
Denial she will most likely deny that anything is going on. You may hear We are just friends or Youre making something out of nothing.
Anger she might try turning the tables on you for spying on her. Who do you think you are checking up on me?, What gives you the right to invade my privacy?
Justification Its YOUR fault I HAD to look elsewhere!
Guilt, Tears and Humiliation The reality of her own actions and betrayal will start to weigh heavy on her conscience.
Silence, she may choose to avoid her feelings and go silent. Not participating in any conversations about the issues.
She may seem to submit by overly taking care of things, become overly passionate and sexual. Dont trust this; see the following sections before moving forward.
Anger she might try turning the tables on you for spying on her. Who do you think you are checking up on me?, What gives you the right to invade my privacy?
Justification Its YOUR fault I HAD to look elsewhere!
Guilt, Tears and Humiliation The reality of her own actions and betrayal will start to weigh heavy on her conscience.
Silence, she may choose to avoid her feelings and go silent. Not participating in any conversations about the issues.
She may seem to submit by overly taking care of things, become overly passionate and sexual. Dont trust this; see the following sections before moving forward.
Pay close attention..
My wife did react this way.. she had the Guilt, Tears and Humiliation... And you see this.. then perhaps you can provide some hope. It was my marriage "awakening".. Love always hopes. What I did was to say, "W, I have it within myself to forgive." But I knew I could live with this in my Marriage.. it is a choice. I changed, my wife changed, we have an incredible marriage today. It took time, pain, training.. My wife is most open today.. because of her choice and because of the new way I treat her.
All others reactions.. Do yourself a favor and keep the value.. I will only be intimate with a woman most open.. A woman who makes the 100% effort to be most open, does not hide and wants on her own free will, to be the one who joins me in my life.. One who can face the consequences of her evil with strength and courage. Any other type woman will not be in part of my happy world.
A given for us all in life.. everything changes and ends. You can come out of this temporary pain with NO regrets.
Courage and strength to you brother.. Stay quality in every way.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:04 AM, March 8th (Saturday)]
Sorry, this just isn't true
in reply to:
and then wrote
It is to give another one of us (a BS) the truth.
In a perfect world you are right. But right now he can't find the OM's wife. Does that mean that he puts his life on hold for the greater good of the greater community? I think not.
I think that Rocket has to move ahead. Perhaps if his wife wants reconciliation she'll divulge more information about the OM. It is also possible that the OM's wife has long since left him.
right now he can't find the OM's wife. Does that mean that he puts his life on hold for the greater good of the greater community? I think not.
In a perfect world informing the OBS will result in both things: providing the truth to another BS and also bringing the affair to a close. However, as homewrecked2011 points out, you can't rely on the response you may get from the OBS. All you can do is put the truth out there and let the chips fall where they may.
I do agree that Rocket needs to let go of the outcome and just move forward with things. Many BS never get the truth.
Rocket, I hope you're taking care of yourself and getting your ducks in a row.
Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson
I hope everything is ok with you buddy. We haven't heard from you in a while. Stay strong man.
I do have a sense of satisfaction, but it hasn't helped me heal, one bit.
I have worried for you brother, that's a long time to hold that in like a steam cooker. If you haven't confronted yet, perhaps get some IC to help you through until that happens.
Thoughts to you...