text:
However, in this case I totally agree that a RA is a horrible idea.
My first question though, is this pototential OW married or in a relationship herself? I lose every ounce of respect and I mean every ounce for any BS who could even THINK of being part of causing the same pain to some other unknowing BS.
So assuming that this person is not in a relationship, and just wants to be part of a cheap attempt to get revenge on your SO. Getting revenge will not improve your relationship with your wife or SO (don't know if you are married...don't know your story). I think the real question should be is there any chance to save your relationship with the WS and do you want to do that? If the answer to either question is yes, then the RA will make the situation more complicated, and more ugly, and make reconciliation less likely.
If, on the other hand, you want to end it with your SO, then end it. That in itself can be good revenge, especially if the SO does not want to end it.
And then go and have relationships with anybody you want (provided they are not "taken" themselves, of course).
Secondly, and more importantly, (for me at least)...MY integrity and morality is part of the fabric of my being. My self esteem has already taken such a huge hit with my H's ONS that I cannot imagine adding "cheater, whore, liar" to the list of self depreciating comments my dark thought say about myself. It's bad enough to feel like I am not enough. At least I know on my WORST day I am a better human being than the OW on her best day. I can hold my head up and know I am a good, loving, compassionate, LOYAL person. I refuse to destroy that.
His betrayal of me was not because I didn't shine brightly enough, but because he chose to put on blinders.
OW was exWW's "good friend" she had, in the past made comments that were flirty. ExWW said "oh she just a big flirt"
I would have felt horrible, hell I felt horrible the first couple times I slept with women after D.
me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's
The conditions we face do not define us. They remind us of who we are and who we want to be.
I was never tempted but I can see how others could be. Affairs damage self-esteem. It's nice to be desired by someone else and validation that the A didn't happen because you were unlovable.
Why make a BS out of your WS, when being a BS is such a difficult road? Why make an AP out of yourself or someone else, when that is such a difficult road.
You know where that road goes, you know the destination sucks, so why on earth would you go there?
Just because my WS wanted to act like he wasn't, doesn't release me from my commitment. If I want to screw someone else, I'll D my H first.
Do you want to become all that you hate about your WS? If you have an RA, you will.
A revenge affair is entering into an A with FULL knowledge of its wide sweeping consequences. You already know how much destruction they carry with them. What makes it worse, is that you are entering into that destruction with your eyes wide open. It's a willful, rebellious and self destructive act.
If the answer to either question is yes, then the RA will make the situation more complicated, and more ugly, and make reconciliation less likely.
MY integrity and morality is part of the fabric of my being. My self esteem has already taken such a huge hit with my H's ONS that I cannot imagine adding "cheater, whore, liar" to the list of self depreciating comments my dark thought say about myself. It's bad enough to feel like I am not enough. At least I know on my WORST day I am a better human being than the OW on her best day. I can hold my head up and know I am a good, loving, compassionate, LOYAL person. I refuse to destroy that.
because it doesn't make things even, it makes things worse.
Simple answer---I'm MARRIED.
You do not want to have the same shame and guilt that remorseful WS's have. We will forever carry a very dark spot in our hearts that will never go away. Trust me. Don't go there, its not worth it, its really really not.
Simply this.
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your mind
Listen to your WS and read the Wayward forum, they are dealing with so much inner turmoil on who they are and why they did it. They are faced with guilt and the realization that their selfishness gutted another human being and may destroy their family. Why enter that world when you are strong enough or healthy enough to make a choice not to?
it is pointless to further damage something you are trying to fix
^^^^THIS Piling more crap on the shit pile only makes a bigger shit pile.
You say you have had opportunity but have always walked away. Why would you want to go against your own apparent core values?
As it stands, you've got nothing to apologize for, or feel deceitful for.
I was tempted....VERY tempted. But I am married....if I want to be with another woman...I will D first. How many of us would have welcomed that choice by our fWS over the weak choice they made?
You have to live with yourself for the rest of your life....there is no choice in that. If you decide adultery is a deal breaker for you, you CAN choose to leave your wife. If adultery IS a deal breaker for you.....why do it for and to yourself? You can never escape you.
I have never read or seen posted how rewarding a RA actually turned out to be....only seen more destruction. I follow one SI members journey closely....affairs on both sides.....they are struggling MORE in their M MORE than those who "just" had one spouse cheat.
With regards to your opportunity to have an A......it is an option for most all people....regardless of physical attractiveness (my wifes fAP was a dumpy middle-aged man, father of 5...hardly society's definition of a stud), financial or social status.
Just look at this site....look around the community you live in to prove that having an A is hardly dependent on anything but two willing people to engage in it.......it is NOT about anyone else but the single person deciding to have an affair. It isnt even about the AP....it really is an individual decision. Need further proof? Look at some high profile adultery examples....look at the varied discrepancies in AP's.
What inside YOU makes you contemplate a RA?
You don't owe me that answer...you owe it to yourself.
Since RA was a temptation for me as well, I did some looking....discovered that I very much have the desire to be with other women.....I took vows and I had boundaries in place to reduce the level of "opportunity" and keep those vows intact....but as I examined myself I could see A being chosen as an option for me. I think I was relying too heavily on boundaries and not putting as much stock into maturing, growing, nurturing what needs to be done within me. Kind of like I was treating the symptoms and not the cause. Make sense?
It is scary at first, to realize some of the reasons behind my boundary establishments (that they were NOT purely in place out of love for my wife, but as a defense against my own sinful nature)....but then I found strength in identifying a weakness in me, the root causes. I can now work on those root causes in healthy ways.....now that I am aware of temptations within me.
One way is turning towards my wife for that which I am tempted to look outside of my M for. This is part of the factor in my journey away from porn.
Turning towards our spouses with our needs. How many of us wished our spouses had the courage to do that when they "noticeable lack of courage" when they choose to have an affair?
Stay strong. Find courage.
If nothing else....tell yourself you can always sleep with other women, have relationships with other women IF your M ends in D. Kinda weak-kneed approach to R, but it was a technique I used to get me through some really really really tempting spots along my journey.....
God help us all.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:33 AM, January 24th (Friday)]
Also, regardless of your status of reconciliation, divorce, separation, limbo, etc., there is only one person that you are guaranteed that you will have to live with and answer to for the rest of your life: you.
Kudos to you for posting out here for feedback, instead of diving straight down that slippery slope.
healthy advice!!!!
Post often....
You are doing well to recognize your feelings but NOT acting on them until you ferret out what the root cause is. I also applaud your desire to put these feelings "out there". Again, this is NOT what a WS minded person would do....you are not a WS, yet.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:39 AM, January 24th (Friday)]
I would just end my M, and move on. Seek a better future with and pray for wisdom, strength, resiliency, and guidance to find a faithful partner.
I am a firm believer that the best revenge is to live well.
I don't expect you to understand my reasons, I just hope you have the desire to heal and find yourself in a position to find out that no one can make you happy but yourself.
Others are hurt and damage by life circumstances, choose to break the cycle and become the better man.
BTW, it is easier said than done, yet if you do happiness awaits.
Believe that.
[This message edited by suchislife01 at 8:48 AM, January 24th (Friday)]
If you want to have sex with another person, then just get a divorce. Why bother trying to R if the thought of having sex with this coworker is so appealing? Either you want to be married..or you don't. There is no inbetween. That this OW has approached you..and the two of you have discussed having sex with each other..well..you have already crossed the line. You are flying down the slippery slope. STOP. Be a man of integrity. Is OW married? Do you want to be the OM?
A bit of a side note...you said..
"I have been told by quite a few women that I'm good looking, and have been "hit on" numerous times over the years and have never taken any of it seriously. I've always thought it was the booze or loneliness or that they had some other motivation, so I would laugh it off."
That sounds like if you had thought their motivation had been genuine,not the booze or whatever, you wouldn't have laughed it off. So, maybe you have been open to having an affair for awhile now,long before your dday, you just didn't act on it because you weren't sure if they were serious. It really shouldn't matter what their motivation is. YOU are married. Who cares what their motivation was?
It sounds like you have been tempted for a long time. Revenge affair or not, it's still cheating, it's still betrayal. It is an act of cruelty. Don't do that to your WW. Don't do it to yourself.
[This message edited by confused615 at 9:03 AM, January 24th (Friday)]
..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.
Oh, it is tempting when they make it clear they are willing. And when your wife screws another man, it really torpedoes your sense of manhood. YOU were faithful, YOU tried to meet her needs, YOU engaged in the marriage, YOU supported your family and what did it get you - some asshole fucking your all too willing wife. Believe me, I understand the natural reaction is to feel that something is wrong with you and some instant female attention from someone other than your WW feel DAMNED good.
But an RA won't really help. Speaking as a guy who pretty much used a young lady to make me feel better (emotionally) after I moved out and filed, I can tell you I still feel like crap for leading her on. Even if that is not the case for you, you will still feel like an ass for sacrificing your core values for attention.
Strength to you brother. Nothing, NOTHING is fair about your wife pursuing another man. But engaging in an affair of your own will not even the score. It will only put you further in hell.
I am a fan of revenge general. From an ethical stand point I have no problems with it. For me it is cathartic and healthy.
I didn't love my W after her A. I stopped the minute I found out. IMO, I considered myself D at that point. Emotionally I had left her. IMO, who wouldn't?
Why did I not have an RA? Because I did not want to be like them. I want to be like me. I don't do that. Other people's actions should not determine your actions. Pave your our path - whatever that is.
take care...
First I Think a RA is wrong to do. However, I Think for some a free pass to "even" up the score can be a good thing. It's not for everybody, maby not for most, but for some definately. Doing it behind your WW back though would add a huge amount of trouble.
I know of many who are glad they did. It helped in several ways. Self esteem, getting the WS to understand some part of the hurt/pain etc that the BS goes through. For some it made it possible for them to R. The idea that the WS gets to have fun but you don't can, fore some be very painfull and difficult to get over if at all.
I agree that it would not make things even in all respects but in some it would.
I know of one BS that did the following:
He had his WW agree to give him a few free passes.
Some time later he told his W that he was gonna use one of his free passes that night and would be back the next day. He did not, never planed to do that but stayed with a friend instead. The next day he had a discussion with his W how she felt about it, then was also when he told her he didn't do it. For them it realy helped.
If I was you I would demand as many free passes as times your wife had sex with the OP and see how she reacts. Demanding them doesn't mean that you will use them. And if you ever decide to use them Think long and hard about it first. How will you feel doing that? How will it affect you? How will it affect your M?
Ohh and Another very important thing:
Don't mess with any married people and make sure that the person you have sex with is fully aware thát it is what it is. Basically don't hurt the partner. Only go ahead if all are OK with a casual sex a few times.
[This message edited by TOMTEFAR at 9:27 AM, January 24th (Friday)]
Other people's actions should not determine your actions
truer words never spoken, And I'm saying this as a former WW - no excuses.
I would recommend that for every BS who is interested in healing themselves first and not the M as I was. It is dangerous and enlightening.
take care...
Why do you think a RA is good?
What do you think it will accomplish?
Is it to hurt your wife?
Is it to make you feel attractive and desired?
How much do you value yourself as a human being?
"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne
How many marriages or relationships do you know where the parties involved both went out and did such things. What do you think of those relationships? Is that what you want for your marriage?
***I am speaking of people currently engaged in such behaviors, not of people that are healing, or marriages in R***
how much respect do you have for someone that cheats? Is that what you want for yourself?
I in no way condone RA's. That said I draw distinction between lying and cheating behind someones back and getting approval first. The distinction being choice and knowledge.
For the record both are bad ideas in concept and in action.
take care...
The distinction being choice and knowledge.
That of course destroying the concept of a revenge affair as an "evening" factor. If we were to really get even, we would need to be sneaky, develop an emotional bond, lie, gaslight, spend marital assets, put our partner's health at risk, and a host of other fun options.
Revenge affairs are wrong because affairs are wrong. It doesn't matter what kind of qualifier you put in front of it.
It doesn't help, and I won't say anything about the marriage. The marriage got torpedoed the moment your SO decided it didn't matter to them anymore. So, I axe the idea of marriage (since marriage always takes two, and since the WS checked out, it's not a marriage anymore. It's an arrangement).
An RA doesn't help YOU: it derails you and takes you away from yourself. You get lost because the pain of betrayal and the life-altering effects it has on you will still be there once you come down from the clouds. Life will still be happening and you will be wasting it. I wouldn't call my A an RA (that is NOT to minimize it; just what it is: an Affair, plain and simple) because something was already broken inside of me that made that okay, that made it an acceptable option for ME to take. It shouldn't have been an option because I know what this crap does to people (not just me, but to the people around me).
I allowed my WH's choices to alter ME, the core of ME, and I made a choice to do something that I knew was wrong. I stopped caring about myself and what was best for me, and decided to disappear into a fantasy bubble where everything was rainbows. And when I emerged (and please understand *I* made the choice to end it because it wasn't like *ME* to do something that horrific to a person or their lives), I realized that I had dropped a huge bomb on myself.
You don't want to do that; you don't want to allow the insidious broken nature of affairs, infidelity or this shit-storm to alter you anymore than it has; you do not want to become more broken than this has already made you.
if you want to sleep with someone while you are married, get it out on the table and have an open marriage. If you want to justify and blame shift your extramarital activities, you will be a WS -regardless of the "RA" label.
Eta: I don't want you to think I am unsympathetic. I proposed an RA to the AP's BH shortly after DDay. He declined. I feel like a total ass when I think of that moment, even though I was out of my mind with agony (see, I blame shift too!). But I made the choice to put it out there, and now I have to live with my action.
[This message edited by Watching2bSure at 12:09 PM, January 24th (Friday)]
Affair = Bad
Revenge = Bad
Revenge Affair = Bad²
It's science.
My username means that I was *owed* an A. Nevermind the facts, I twisted them to my suit my own ends.
What I thought was an RA was anything but.
Cheating is cheating. Nothing justifies infidelity. Not even being cheated on.
To reach an equivalent level of pain, I would have to wait another 18 years, let him pour all of himself into rebuilding this marriage, let him believe that we were in it together fully, let our marriage grow to the level of trust and intimacy that I once believed that we shared, and THEN have an affair. Why would I do that?
Of course I feel like getting some validation. Of course I feel like causing him pain sometimes. Of course I wish to God he could have the faintest idea what this is that I am feeling. But what does that have to do with having sex with another person? All those feelings do for me is help me to understand that my husband's affair was never, ever about sex or love or the fabulousness of the other woman.
He tried to fix something broken inside of him by having an affair. It didn't work. At all. Why would I try to fix what he broke in me, by doing the same stupid thing? There's no magic that happens in your soul when you have sex with someone to fulfill a selfish, self-serving need. It doesn't bring healing or validation or better self-esteem.
I'm sorry you were betrayed. You did not deserve it.
If you just dip a toe in the Wayward Forum you see tears and heartache just like anywhere else. Sure, they were the transgressor in this case, but I wouldn't wish that level of self loathing and shame on anyone. Do you think they thought about that consequence to their affair beforehand? Of course not. They were just going after the cookie and are now paying the price, as is their BS.
It's the same damn cookie here. It looks delicious, it's got sprinkles, but it is going to make you sick just the same.
Oh, and when in the world has "He/She did it first" ever been a viable excuse when arguing morality?? Protecting yourself is one thing. Hurting someone else because they hurt you first is not excusable no matter how you spin it.
That being said, I am not going to tell you what to do, but I can tell you what you are pondering is pretty normal thought process a lot of BHs go through. Myself included.
The unfairness gets to you. This is unfair in a society that pushes "fairness" to a fault. (e.g.- See everybody gets a trophy athletics) What our W did, for whatever reason, was cruel, unfair and hurt you in places you did know you had.
One of the usual ways this plays out in your head is that if you got to experience the "fun side," of this crap (as you already are on the bad end). It is part curiosity, part revenge and part desperate attempt to feel better. I get it, I have been there myself. You just want this agony to stop and you start looking at any and all things. Alcohol, hobbies, RAs, whatever.
I understand how hypocritical it is for a WS to ask that their BS be faithful, "now." After all, had we known that we were living in a one sided open M we may have decided to pursue other partners too. We never considered it before and Dday has made that possibility real for us. I mean our WWs risked a lot to pursue these relationships, there had to something they got out of it, right ? Hindsight is 20/20 and looking at something with the full consequences in place sometimes hides the short term benefits the WS received from it. Are the longer term consequences to our WW, US, the M worse than any benefit ? Of course they are. My point is this RA rolling around in your head could be a step toward empathizing or understand the why for your W. You can try, but you'd be the first BH to get that one figured out.
Your Ws actions do not reflect on you. They reflect on her. She has certainly screwed up your life and you will never be the same, but at some point you will realize that most of the "fault," lies outside of you and you bear no responsibility for your W's choices. BTW Being "changed" does not necessarily mean worse, it just means diffeent. It can also mean being better, wiser, stronger and less naive (not calling you that just making a point).
You have to think about the man you are and what you can live with. This could feel great now, but who knows how you will feel about it later on. After all you can't go back and change the past.
I know you will think on it before leaping, just think out all the angles. Ask your W about how she felt and feels about it then and now.
At the end of the day this is really about trying fill a need you have and there maybe alternatives that could have fewer side effects in the long run.
Sometimes you have to think on the thought for awhile to really understand what is behind it. For example you may think this is way to help your W understand how you feel. There are easier ways to do it. Telling her and showing her how much this has hurt you transfers the ownership back to her. She didn't mess up your life, she messed up her life. You have the same choices you always have had and can lead whatever life you want to live.
Anyway, I am not saying you should or shouldn't. Just think on it for awhile. I would suspect you aren't sure of the answer either and this will have consequences no matter what direction you take. All choices do.
PM me if you want to.
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.
Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.
Why are RA's bad?
Why is it common wisdom that having revenge sex is a bad thing?
I might be splitting hairs here based on my own experiences but I don't think the question in your title is exactly the same as the question you ask in the body of your post. For me an affair is something that not only might involve sex but also requires lying and deception.
It is complicated by my situation evolved to an open marriage. I can tell you that it has helped with me in dealing with my WW LTA that happened before we had an open marriage. I did not get mind movies after DDay, the sex aspect of the LTA has not been an issue for me. For me it allowed me to more clearly focus on the lying and deception. I think another part that it helped in my healing is that it gave me strenth in myself to deal with it all - finding out you WS cheated on your can be a crushing blow but I think that I having options helped me regain my strength quickly.
My situation is unique and I don't necessarily recommend the direction that I have taken to other BS - it has worked for me though. Now if you are going to lie and decieve your WS and have your own affair you are only asking for more hurt. A revenge affair will only complicate matters increadibly, best to stand on the high ground when dealing with all of this.
That is the same rationalization and justification many of our spouses had. HOW and in what way, is this a healthy choice. Just ask yourself that.
I bet you dollars to donuts your WW will not feel the same way after you bang the young lady in question.
Just. No. It's not healthy. Focus your effort on healing actions, not destructive ones.
There is nothing wrong with ending your marriage over this. Nothing at all. It is your right. This however, will only muddy your recovery.
Why lower yourself? Don't become someone you are not because of what your WW did. That is really giving up.
Stay strong, stay a loyal partner.
Together 7 years
1 doggie
DDay: June 24, 2013
She might not have strings attached, but you will be dragging your WW along like an anchor on a chain.
Let me explain my mindset, if I can. In the past, whenever I had the opportunity to cheat, (and there have been quite a few) I would always think it was a ridiculous idea. After all, I was married to a wonderful guy, who was totally devoted to me, right? So why would I? But since he's been working so much and doesn't ever have time for me or the kids, I have been thinking a lot about what I want from life and whether I want to expend the years of time and effort putting up with him and his constant absence, or finding someone who can appreciate me.
Considering that my wife has already said that if I had sex with someone else, it wouldn't change her determination to prove her love and devotion to me.
Also considering that the Lady in question, is something of a "free spirit" and wouldn't make demands on me, I'm thinking why would it be so bad? More like a practice run, than an affair.
You want a practice run or to sew wild oats, separate and divorce.
I swear to God you will regret this Bdell. Go hang out in the wayward forum. Go read some of the profiles of the Vets. Being a cheater, whether it's a regular old A, a revenge A, a "we're taking a break" A, or whatever. It's all self-betrayal. And it blows. Bad.
[This message edited by Aubrie at 5:00 PM, January 24th (Friday)]
If you don't care if the M works out, go for it. Sure, you'll be labeled a cheater, but you'll have the 'she did it first' mantra, and most would understand that. They'd see the two of you as a messed up mess, but that's a different story.
But, if you care, if you want R, then don't do it. It will not help in any way. It won't assist in getting your marriage on track. It won't assist in getting you to where you want to be. It just won't. It will only multiply the problem.
Ask yourself this - imagine for a minute you've had sex with this OW - who, btw, sounds lovely, telling a married man she's ready to fuck if he is - imagine you've seen her naked, felt her against you, had the little giggles and all the things that lead to sex and happen after. You've done all of it. Do you feel better? Do you feel less pain because your wife cheated? Did screwing this pillar in the community make you feel whole?
Don't do it Bdell. There's nothing at the bottom of this bottle but the bottom. Don't dive in head first.
[This message edited by painfulpast at 5:36 PM, January 24th (Friday)]
it sounds like your have already crossed boundaries with the potential OW.
Why replace integrity with shame?
It will certainly help destroy your chance of R, if that's what you want?
Your WW giving you permission shows how much her self esteem is in the shitter. IMHO, she seriously needs to work on that. By cheating on her, you will help confirm that she is not important to you.
Come read in Wayward. I assure you, the dark side has no cookies.
You have been given exceptional advice, experience, and strength. Are your listening ears on?
Don't become a wayward. We don't want you there. More importantly, YOU don't want YOU there.
Ego kibbles are like Fruit Loops. Empty calories. Zero nutritional value.
You've told us you're good looking. You've told us a younger hottie desires you. I guess I'm wondering what are YOU telling YOU?
I for one won't lose any sleep over do you or don't you bang the girl who is willing to have sex with a married guy who is clearly angry, in crisis, hurt, sad, and scared. That won't impress me.
You doing the right thing? That will duly impress me. Dazzle the shit out of me. Because that takes guts, class, and a hell of a lot more balls than I, or any wayward husband, has.
You're better than this. And deep down you know it.
Let's say that you carry out the revenge affair/ONS as means of getting back at your wife and leveling the playing field. In the absolute best case scenario, you feel 100% even, and she feels like she got what she deserved, and then you move on....except then that opens up a whole new can of worms about your value system, such as: Why am I OK with using other people(OW) as weapons to hurt those who have hurt me? This is not a "she hit me first, so I hit her back"-type scenario, because in order to hit her back you have to manipulate, use, and then discard a third party....are you OK with that? Is that really the kind of person you want to be?
Also, as some others have probably pointed out (tl;dr), while she may very well be hurt by your actions, she probably won't be surprised. Only one person gets the sucker punch, you know? Every blow after that you kind of expect.
Finally, you have the moral high ground right now: do not trade even an inch of altitude for a little bit of validation and payback.
"free spirit" is typical OW meme. I'm sure you know this on some level. She does not really want you to use her body for pleasure nor does she see you as just a good time.
Please de-fog your affair glasses. If you want to leave your wife, file for divorce.
I'd really have to question:
Why this woman thinks she even has the right to be discussing having sex with you - married man?
That's really a blurring of boundaries, in my opinion.
I can understand being alone; but I hate being with someone and feeling lonely.
but I have been told by quite a few women that I'm good looking, and have been "hit on" numerous times over the years
In the past, whenever I had the opportunity to cheat, (and there have been quite a few)
Gently, I can't decide if you sound more like an insecure wayward or Ron Burgundy. Are you "kind of a big deal?" Maybe a topic for IC? I imagine you can think of more healthy and fulfilling ways to rebuild your confidence/self esteem other than having an affair. You're better than that; you wouldn't be here doing the work if you weren't.
So I am bad when I want a sip?
If you think your work is done, that's your choice. Good luck.
As for the insecurity deal, I assumed (wrongly I guess) that since you twice felt the need to point out how women find you attractive and how you've had many opportunities to have affairs, you were most likely looking for some of us to acknowledge that, thus giving you a boost in the ego department. I was just giving you something to think about. Sorry if I was off the mark.
I have worked my ass off to provide for my family and to raise myself above poverty, terrible, terrible, poverty. I can do anything I want, be anything I want, because I have always done the right thing and worked like a dog.
Me too.
if you want to be exactly like your wife, go find some trash and roll in it. Nobody is stopping you.
I probably won't go through with it, but I am NOT going to spend 3, 4, or 5 years living like this. She had better get her ass in gear, it is up to her to get it done. I have done my part. I will do no more than give her the chance.
This is completely, totally and absolutely a reasonable attitude. Nobullshit.
Take control, take responsibility. Being a good man is brutal. Don't feel guilty for walking away from a bullshit situation. Better that than compromising yourself, imo.
Sorry you are in this place. It sucks.
[This message edited by StillGoing at 12:37 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
The idea of having a night to JUST be a man with a woman, no strings, no thoughts of the affair, sounds pretty good.
Then divorce your WIFE and go for it. Are you married or not? Did the vows say, "Unless you do something bad to me... then I get to go out and have just one eensy weensy, "just a" night of fun too." Or did you make a promise that day? I didn't put any escape clauses in mine that I can recall. I'm not in control of FWH but I know who I am and what my commitments are regardless of his stupid decisions.
Nobody's saying you don't deserve the freedom of boning down with whomever you choose if that's what you need in this whole world. We're just saying to do it with honor. Either reconcile with your wife or cut her loose and go party. You can't have both and say that the man in the mirror has integrity. Period.
If you want a RA then that indicates to me that you, as well as your WW, have issues you need to deal with.
If a WS doesn't do the work to heal themselves they continue with recidivistic tendencies.
THAT is why we advocate IC on here. My advice to you is to man up and D your wife before going to have sex with your WW's 'flirty friend' as your reasoning for wanting to have an A are as lame as every other cheaters!
Sorry to be harsh but a RA is just another excuse to go do something bad!
And yes- some of us on here have had people let us know they'd be a willing partner in crime!
My FWH screwed a colleague but guess what? That doesn't give me a free pass to go even the score just because I know a couple of guys who'd be up for that!
If you're thinking about what it feels like to be with and inside another woman that's something you need to resolve as that isn't there because your wife cheated on you.... It's there because you want to have sex with someone other than your wife'!
I has hurt real bad by my FWH but the thought of having sex with someone else repulsed me then and does now. And that's because I've got integrity.
If I cannot overcome my bad feelings about sex with my wife, then R will be impossible. This is something I feel that she should make every effort to help with.
Yes, she should. It sounds like this is the issue you most want to solve. How is she helping right now? Is she trying? Is this a period of time where the pain will come in waves and the biggest struggle is withstanding it? Or are you struggling with someone who is unremorseful? That will determine R, as it takes two people to be in
Right now, it sounds as though you're in limbo. Limbo has so many gradations within it. In some you're closer to R, hoping that both people will commit, and working toward a sign. Somewhere in the middle you're struggling with your feelings, not sure if you can commit or not, not sure if it's right for you. And another gradation is near the end, where unless there's some kind of miracle, you're heading for D, or possibly waiting until D conditions are more favorable. And everything in between.
Where in there, in either R or limbo, does having sex with a party outside your marriage make sense?
I haven't decided to have sex with anyone, and therein lies the problem.
Unless D is on the table (and preferably in motion with the agreement that the marriage is FINISHED), why is this an option? Why is it an option to brand yourself with 'Cheater' for the rest of your life?
If you cannot feel good about having sex with your wife, and you're thinking that not deciding to have sex with someone else is a problem (or that deciding to have sex with someone else is the solution), then what does that say about your marriage? What kind of marriage would that be, going forward? How would it get better?
1. Is it realy cheating if Everything is in the open? You are not lying to your partner, boing behind their back etc. You are stating it beforehand and your partner is free to decide to stay or go Beforehand.
2. BDell has never stated that he would do it because of revenge. So RA is the wrong terminology don't you Think? He has also stated that it would be in the oppen, se Point 1.
3. I get the Point that a revenge affair behinde the back of your WS is not a good thing if you are trying to R. But what BDell is talking about is something different. I Think BDell would be better served with the discussion shifting focus a bit to what he is thinking about.
This can of worms can't be unopened. And regardless of whether Bdell or any of us feel he does or doesn't deserve a freebie (and hell, why just stop at one?) his Wayward wife will have HER feelings about this if it comes to pass.
I'm guessing it will change EVERYTHING about the reconciliation dynamic in their relationship. JMHO.
It sounds like you have already crossed boundaries. You have talked about your marital problems with this woman, and the two of you have discussed having sex with each other. Sounds like an EA to me.
This is a woman who is willing to spread her legs for a married man...to help him get back at his wife for cheating on him? That is not a friend.
What about STD's? have you discussed when the last time she was tested? Has she had sex with anyone since then? Oh, I know, you would wear a condom...but condoms don't stop all STD's. Are you going to kiss OW? Have oral? Then you will be exposed to the possibility of getting an STD. Then, in turn, you will expose your wife.
You aren't very far out from dday. You are looking at all of this through shit colored glasses. Once you have had the benefit of time,you will have some clarity. And, hopefully, you will realize not breaking YOUR vows was the best choice.
Also...this woman who you has offered to help you out by having sex with you..is in NO way a friend of your marriage. You need to NC her. I know you don't know if you want to R yet. But you can not eat cake. You can not keep your WW in limbo, while having an EA/talking with another woman about having sex.
We all get that you're angry. But no one is going to support you having an RA.
Having the moral high ground is very cold comfort, right now.
It sure is, but I'll tell you that I've seen many a member that fall off that high ground for a RA and then their personal pains of dealing with that action sure lasted much longer than my time with that very cold comfort. The years of pain and disappointment that those folk dealt with and continue to deal with is not something that I wish for you or anyone to deal with.
Bdell, you are in a world of hurt and pain. I think that you should be careful of anyone right now that isn't your wife and is hinting, suggesting, or pushing for you to get involved with them.
Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; theyll scratch you up time and time again but in the end youre polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
However, I know that's not going to do anything to help me heal, and I'm not a Ho.
She's a free spirit? Maybe she's got a disease. Maybe she will get pregnant. You think it would be just a one time thing and you can move on.
Think of the worst case scenario ... it could happen. Hard to R with your wife if you're paying CS or having a new baby spend weekends with you.
All assumptions aside...how do you know she wants to have sex with you?
I am beginning to think that women have some kind of Radar that detects men having marital problems.
I also am beginning to suspect that my SIL hasn't kept her mouth shut.
Another reason not to do it is because you want to be able to go forward in the future saying you never had sex outside of marriage. If you meet a nice person once you're divorced, and the topic of cheating comes up, you want to be able to say (authentically) "No, I never had sex with anyone else while married, not even after she did it to me." If you do the RA, you're going to have to qualify it with all sorts of shit, like "Oh, well we were TECHNICALLY married, but separated, but she did it to me first..." and so on and so forth....or you could just lie, but that's no way to start a new relationship. Maybe this new person will take your reasons at face value, or maybe they'll mentally dismiss you as someone who cheats and makes excuses....to use a sports phrase:
Don't ever leave the game in the hands of the refs.
You can win this game by sticking this shit out for a while longer, after which point you can roll in the hay with whoever you want, free and clear.
[This message edited by FacePunched at 10:27 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
[This message edited by Bdell at 10:28 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
I get that. Really I do.
But you can't 'just be a man with a woman' other than your W, because you're married, and you've got commitments to other people.
And you most definitely can't 'have no thoughts of the affair' by having an RA - those thoughts are with you all the time, as you attest.
So for you, the RA is bad because it simply won't do for you what you want it to do.
You get to choose how to respond to your W's A. Even if she's the most exemplary fWS in history, you can choose to D with your head held high.
If her A is a deal killer for you, that's OK.
I'm really sorry you're having difficulty with sex, but what you describe is something that is your issue, and only you can solve it. You can choose from many good options, and if you're having trouble choosing, you can get help - IC or talking with a pastor is likely to lead to a solution in less work time than working through the issues on SI.
Of course, we're available 24 X 7, and IRL counselors are not....
What you're going through is common. Everybody solves it one way or another. You will, too.
I'm curious about these questions:
How can you justify an A, even if it's an RA, if you won't excuse cheating in someone else?
Are you holding other people to a standard higher than the standard to which you hold yourself?
And if you D and meet a woman who had an RA, wouldn't that raise a big red flag for you?
[This message edited by sisoon at 10:34 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
I know that many of you are ready to condemn me, but I also would like to point out that I am simply asking about adultery related issues and questions. When I have decide what to do, I will do it. Right now, I am learning about RA's and sex outside of marriage. Tommorrow I will maybe learn about rebuilding trust, or how to aid my wife with her self examination, or about how to restart intimacy, or any number of issues.
I think most of the posters would agree that the fact that you brought this up here, knowing you'd get some emotional responses, is a far cry better than if you'd have just ran out and used some woman to feel better/even. I'm giving you a ton of credit for that.
Confused615 brought up a valid question. How do you know this woman wants to have sex with you? It's a simple question. And here's something that I'm afraid you'll bristle at...it's a very slippery slope.
How do you think most of us WS got to the point where we are? Talking about things with other people that shouldn't be talked about. Our sex lives, or lack thereof. Our relationship/marriage status. There are things that people must safeguard. That's something I didn't do. I blurted my entire life with a megaphone to people that I should not have.
My AP slid comments in. I slid comments in. Next thing ya know, trashy pics, porn, and whatever all else was being sent back and forth. Dates were being looked at to consummate the affair.
You're incredibly hurt by your wife's affair. I understand that completely. I've watched my husband go thru the same pain. It sucks. And yes, it's incredibly unfair. He had fleeting thoughts of an RA in his crippling pain. But he would shove those thoughts aside. He valued himself more than that. His integrity was more important than trying to strike back at me. In fact, he safeguarded himself in those early days. He wouldn't go to a female client's home alone. If there was a woman present, he would text or call me. He was very accountable with his time and actions. He stuck with business only conversation. Because he did not want to jump into A territory. He refused to entertain or act upon his irrational impulses.
JD brought up a very good point. By your own admission, your wife is doing anything and everything to try to help you heal. That is HUGE Bdell. When there are so many other waywards that could care less about their BS? You have a gift. I know it's hard to see it that way. But a remorseful WS is so much easier to deal with than one that is not.
I don't think anyone on this thread is condemning you. I think they see the signs and are warning you of the cliff that's ahead. They don't want you to fall off. These people have either experienced it themselves, or watched other people do it. Even though there are comments that are hard to read, it is given to you out of care and concern.
[This message edited by Bdell at 11:00 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
First, I don't think there is a BH on this site who hasn't wondered at some point what it might be like to be with another woman in the wake of the devastation that is discovering infidelity. I don't see an issue with that. We are confused, angry, hurt and feeling compelled to action of some sort, either to escape and weather things, validate ourselves or just get perspective.
This is a perfectly rational and acceptable place to be. It is also an entirely distinct issue from a revenge affair, which is just an affair like any other because revenge is just one of many justifications.
I think that these experiences can be had without cheating - as (by Jrazz I think) was pointed out, with honor. The right way, as it were. Separation with mutually agreed on terms, or divorce. The immediate problem here is this - doing this the right way means giving up total control of the relationship outcome by giving the freedom of choice to the WS. Which is unfair, in the sense that the WS got to make those choices without any input from the BS or any risk other than discovery - the "Easier to ask forgiveness than permission" scenario. So the choice in this case is to run the risk of this relationship ending and not entirely by your decision, or to be a deceptive, cheating wayward and run the risks of compounding the already existing damage.
If you talk to your spouse and s/he is okay with a "free pass" kind of deal then, well, take it. Be absolutely sure you understand that it's not likely s/he is *really* okay with you going there and that it's going to cause a bunch of resentment and anger that you had the temerity to actually cash in. Though I'm sure there are exceptions I don't believe any couple close to dday is in a healthy, stable enough position with their relationship to introduce those variables without massive collateral damage.
Ultimately you decide how this plays out. I still wonder what it'd be like, though honestly more on a relationship level than a pure fuckatronic level. I expect the mechanics of fuckery are compatible between mediums, like substituting miniatures between tabletop games or a gi between fighting styles (though the double weave is probably overkill for shit like tkd but w/e). I mean penis goes in, penis goes out, fun times are had by all consenting parties so I expect the differences are about the brain activity going on there. Maybe pillow talk or toys or shit. I dunno I guess that scene with the car battery in Demon Knight... anyway.
Separate the issues. Infidelity is infidelity no matter the reason.
Hmmm. Can't imagine *why* most of the company wives "hate" her. I doubt they are jealous. You may be right..women may sense when a man is having marital trouble...they also can tell when a woman acts inappropriately around their husbands. Sounds like they had/have good reason to dislike her. I don't think I'd like it too much if a comworker of my FWH flirted with him, talked about being a swinger, told him her views about sex, etc.
Do you love your wife? Do you want to hurt her? Because it will. It will tear her heart into pieces. She is telling you she would support you having an RA because she is ashamed and guilty and she is trying to help you. I wonder..does she think her affair helped her in any way? If not, then why would she want you to do that to yourself?
Do you really, truly believe this would make you feel better? You are not "just a man." You are a married man. No matter how hard you try to outrun your heartache, it will be there, waiting for you, the morning after. Will you be able to look your WW in the eye..knowing you have broken her heart? (And yes, I understand..she did it..why shouldn't you? I get that anger..that entitlement.)
Forget what your WW did. If you choose to do this, this is all on you. 100% yours to own. We would tell her the same thing we told you when you arrived in the JFO forum..nothing you did or didn't do made him do this. This is all his shit to own.
Im not trying to condemn you..not at all. I know you are in a tremendous amount of pain..and you are pissed.off. You are asking this question here...and you are getting a lot of great advice from several SI members who are years out from dday. I hope you really take into consideration the advice you have been given.
[This message edited by confused615 at 11:28 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
Did you know that you can' t tell by looking at someone if they are infected? Goodlooking people with good hygiene can be infected too.
Did you know a more sexually promiscuous person has a much higher chance of being infected?
Did you know some people lose their jobs or suffer career damage when they cheat with coworkers?
Did you know that people lie and you won't be able to control the OW's actions such as who she tells, whether she stalks you or if her BS reports you to company.
Did you know hpv can cause oral and throat cancer in men? Did you know herpes can invade your inner body and cause serious health problems and pain? My fWH had esophagal herpes which was extremely painful and doctor told him about certain head pain could mean it moved into the brain which can kill? He gave both to me.
All A's are bad IMHO not to mention dangerous to both spouses as it turns out.
[This message edited by whattheh at 11:38 AM, January 25th (Saturday)]
But I am also going to protect myself and explore my options and learn about other POV's as well.
Understood. As someone who has been on both sides of the coin, I'd like you to take into consideration your integrity. Integrity is a very valuable thing. Integrity is so easily tainted, and once it is tainted, it is a herculean task to gain it back. As you explore your options, try to keep your integrity in mind, and ask yourself the question "Is it worth it?"
You are doing good by posting here and openly talking about your thoughts. Wishing you the best of luck, and hoping you make some wise decisions based upon your own knowledge and experience, and the knowledge and experience that others are sharing here with you as well.
In your Just Found Out thread, Bdell (which is now down on Page 8) you mentioned sitting down and "outing" your Wayward Wife's affair to your kids and family members.
Will you be doing the same, or mind your WW doing the same, with your children and family, if you follow through on this?
Food for thought.
Just curious...do you spend any time posting on the Betrayed Menz thread in I Can Relate. Those guys are quite a bunch. I go there sometimes to remind myself of a third kind of kind of hurt my affair helped to inflict which 1) wasn't the hurt I inflicted on myself, and 2) the hurt I inflicted on my betrayed wife. They might be of some assistance to you, IMHO.
For a BS, personal recovery from an A is a process--a journey, not a destination. You are still very new to this and understandably very raw. We have all gone through the torturous emotions. Getting back to a normal sex life with your WS takes a long time. I cried many, many times both before and during sex with my FWH. The mind movies were terrible. I never had a RA, but did wonder what it would be like, whether it would make me feel better. I think we all gave it some thought. Those who have actually done it have given you some valuable advice. I am pretty sure that it will not fix this.
Right now, you need time. My advice, for what it is worth, is to not do anything, especially something that can't be undone. Your WW is working hard, doing what she needs to do to make things right. Give that some time--you will have days when you feel like you are going backwards in healing, not forwards. That is the roller coaster that you often hear described. You cannot make this better in weeks or months. It takes years, it really does. There are no magic pills, as much as we all wish there were. You are struggling and we all understand why. Please give yourself and your WW the gift of time.
On the issue of having an A with this woman (I will decline to describe her as a lady) vs. having an open M: I believe that an open M must be discussed and agreed upon by both parties. Have you and your WW every considered having an open M before now? I would assume that if she wanted that, she would have asked for it before having an A. I would guess that, if your WW is doing everything she can to try to make things better, she is going to agree to whatever you suggest. That is not the type of agreement that is needed to have a successful open M. I think she would, as other have suggested, be hurt and eventually resentful. That is not conducive to a successful R. It appears that the most likely outcome would just be a bigger mess on your hands. Which I think is exactly what most of the posters on this thread have been trying to say.
I didn't see your thoughts WRT my assertion that an RA would not accomplish what you want it to accomplish. You're under no obligation to comment, of course, but I do hope you design your behavior to accomplish your goals.
The open M movement was current when we got married. We considered it. The initial advocates talked some about how difficult it was to establish and maintain a true open M, but that tended to get lost as time went on. In any case, we concluded it wouldn't work for us, and we suspect it fails way more often than it succeeds. Of course, the failures are way more obvious than the successes, and image doesn't always reflect reality.
Open M is difficult in any case. I suspect it's next to impossible to establish one when a closed M is in crisis.
Besides, you started this thread about RAs, not open Ms. It's hard to conduct a decent argument if you change the subject changes mid-stream.
There's a lot of experience here that can help you prevent some mistakes, but you get to make your own choices.
First of all, I don't think bdell is advocating for a revenge affair. That of course implies a revenge motive which is nowhere to be found in his posts.
The issue to me is about how a MAN can deal with the fact that another man conquested his wife, physically. The penetration and domination. BWs here can not relate to the deep male programming about how self worth may come from female conquest. Heck, think about even poor Rudolph playing all those reindeer games to attract does!
When another man has 'boned' one's own wife, there is a primitive *feeling* that your wife has been ruined, used up, and now lacks value...due to just the sex itself. After all, for a BH to affirm her value, in a way also affirms that the rival, intruding man is better than him. After all, she preferred getting boned by him than the safety of the BH's cave and fire.
The other course of mental action is to minimize the sex symbolically, which in turn calls into question the gross unfairness itself, and begs the question of how could conquesting some other female just sexually actually mean anything...if it is not supposed to mean anything to the BH in terms of his wife's infidelity.
Finally there is the issue of HB, sex with the WW, and the possibility of staying in the M due to bad reasons...like fear and being pussy-whipped. You know, the fact that there are vaginas everywhere is a rational observation. But like some odd theory in quantum physics, attractive vaginas are both omnipresent and scarce simultaneously.
So lets say for shits and grins that bdell gets laid by some attractive woman, and that we suspend the moral assessment of the actors. Either he will come away saying, hey, there are a lot of babes out there, nothing special about my WW and her vagina, that infidelity deal was a deal breaker, and I am outta here! I am no longer whipped!
OR, he will come away thinking, this vagina is no better than the one here at home. Heck, they are all the same. So getting this new vagina is nothing special as this was just some bodily function like using the bathroom and thus highly ordinary: so the sexual acts my WW had with rival man meant nothing and are symbolically of no consequence.
It is especially hard for a BH to make the physical acts of sex with the WW special, when she did not previously treat it that way; further that mistreatment seems to have some kind of permanent effect. In some ways, the BH has to surrender any importance of the sex and focus on other aspects of the relationship as what is important...which then invites again the circular argument about how can having sex with another woman be so bad?
Maybe this is a question for WSs - and referred to by the sage WW Aubrie - the hypocrisy of insisting upon something that they were not willing to provide. So yeah deception is very wrong, but to any WS, in a spirit of openness and transparency, if your BS now asked for permission up front to try out sex with another body, what would you say? Maybe they just need more 'information'.
Happy Saturday!
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 1:54 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
I think the difficulty many BSs have here in relating to what bdell is saying is a gender difference thing....when it comes to sex itself and its meaning deep in the primitive psyche.
Please. Stop. With. The. Generalizations.
Just stop.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 2:14 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
Actually, you can do that, it is called getting divorced. Or not getting married in the first place.
Statistics are descriptive yet NOT always predictive. I am not making a 100% claim for all individuals.
But you're applying the statistics specifically to the members here by saying "many BSs have here". There are a number of women here who feel devastated to think of our husbands having sex with other women, whether because now they're "tainted" or because we worry constantly about being good enough now that they've tasted someone else, etc. Generalizations on this site don't help because all our stories are so unique. For some folks, the situation you describe will apply, and for many folks it won't. That's all; it's important to be mindful of those kinds of generalizations especially when it comes to gender. It doesn't have to be a war, in my opinion.
[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:17 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
When another man has 'boned' one's own wife, there is a primitive *feeling* that your wife has been ruined, used up, and now lacks value...due to just the sex itself.
Is this feeling only applicable to one's wife during the courtship/marriage or does it also apply to her previous partners "ruining" her? In other words, does your partner need to be a virgin before you?
the BH on average is more affected by the PA while BWs are more affected by the EA.
suspend the moral assessment of the actors
if your BS now asked for permission up front to try out sex with another body, what would you say? Maybe they just need more 'information'.
[This message edited by Aubrie at 2:29 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
^ This.
Now all the sudden they feel the need to try out whatever floozy will give them attention and stroke their bruised egos. Among other things. Isn't that just another justification?
^ And this.
Everything both UnexpectedSong and Aubrie said.
[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:31 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
She has tried to flirt with me for years, but I always told her to mind her own f**king business.
How strongly have you been rejecting her? And she keeps flirting with you in spite of your objections? Has she been interpreting your rejections as flirtatious also? That this is part of the tension, part of the dynamics between the two of you?
PLUS, this thread is bdell's and my comments were directed to him in extrapolation.
So to contradict you, silver, yes on this site a generalization can help if it helps bdell as this is his thread. He can say on his own, nah, doesn't apply to me.
I truly disagree that generalizations are not useful. If such a generalization carries 51% or more cases, that is a very important consideration.
The fact that the many books I have read, from NJF to ATA, etc., do point out the typical differences in responses to infidelity based on geneder is honest and helpful. And helps me understand myself.
This site in particular, is very hostile to even any small suggestion of gender differences and I find that intellectually dishonest actually.
OR, he will come away thinking, this vagina is no better than the one here at home. Heck, they are all the same. So getting this new vagina is nothing special as this was just some bodily function like using the bathroom and thus highly ordinary
Unless a man has only ever had sex with his wife, he already knows that one vagina is "no better" than another.
On this site we feel strongly about generalizations. So strongly it's one of the few guidelines we have. Please reference Guideline #8:
GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.
Generalizations can really do more hurt than help.
The people you do your life with shape the life you live
I am going to try to get past the fact that you just referred to women as vaginas, and ask a legit question.
You profile suggests that you are a BH and have not had a RA. Yet your devil's advocate logic purports that a MAN might be justified.
So, please explain, for Bdell's sake, why you did not had a RA.
Is this feeling only applicable to one''s wife during the courtship/marriage or does it also apply to her previous partners "ruining" her? In other words, does your partner need to be a virgin before you?
what they actually fear is that their own genitals must no longer be special to the WS, because they had the option to only have access to one person's junk, and instead chose to pursue multiple junks.
This. The feeling that our own junk must not be special - I resonate with that. And then, that's when a different healing journey begins: teaching yourself to feel special or "enough" without your partner's validation (or anyone else's). Very difficult.
So, I think that for a great many (not all...see what I did there?) BS, male and female alike
I wonder if it has effected your marriage.
The fact that you think a swinger who flirts with a married man, openly offers up sex, and is disliked by other women is some sort of independent woman worth risking your marriage over or even sleeping with is ....interesting. I seriously doubt women are jealous of her. She has probably already slept with other guys at your job. The fact that you even have a dialogue with this woman while you are married is pretty shocking.
She is a part-time adult model, and swinger, and views sex as a recreational activity.
So yeah, I'm with everyone else when they say that is not shocking that 'the wives' would be jealous or distrustful (perhaps reasonably so). Hint: It's not because of this:
This Lady is the attractive, independent woman that most company wives hate, or are jealous of. She lives her life by her own standards and is unapologetic about it.
[This message edited by FacePunched at 4:54 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
eta: My FWH fucked someone for many years. Yeah, that pretty much tears me up and I don't think any BH can say it tears him up more because he is a male. I don't know if I would feel the same if it was an EA without PA, but I know the PA aspect just about killed me. The mind movies were nothing less than torture and pure agony.
eta: to remove offensive name for so called "Lady". So sorry, thinking that I wasn't calling an actual OW a "bad word", but still shouldn't use that word in Reconciliation in describing some one.
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:52 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
Spare us the Samantha Sex & the City routine, she's a ho. Notice I don't say whore, who would have the common sense to get paid in cash not attention.
The wives who speak up & say they don't like her are the confident ones.
This Lady is the attractive, independent woman that most company wives hate, or are jealous of. She lives her life by her own standards and is unapologetic about it.
I "hate" the whole "Oh, they don't like me 'cause they are jealous!" No, they hate "This Lady" because we see who she really is. An unethical slut that thrives off of male external validation and ego kibbles from men, single and available or not. She is the farthest thing from confident and independent. She would shrivel up and die if she wasn't adored by male after male.
SMilkshakes description? Dead on the money. I know cause I was that girl in the description. She's dead inside. She feels worthless. She seeks out attention, brags about her awesomeness and sex life cause she craves attention. She dies without it. She pretends to be everything she's not, in an effort to fill the void. She's toxic. She's poison.
If you find this thread to be too triggery, please step back.
With regard to terminology:
I am going to try to get past the fact that you just referred to women as vaginas
Unless a man has only ever had sex with his wife, he already knows that one vagina is "no better" than another.
So I guess according to statistics, QS isn't "as" betrayed as the other gents here eh?
You profile suggests that you are a BH and have not had a RA. Yet your devil's advocate logic purports that a MAN might be justified...So, please explain, for Bdell's sake, why you did not had a RA.
...teaching yourself to feel special or "enough" without your partner's validation (or anyone else's). Very difficult.
if your BS now asked for permission up front to try out sex with another body, what would you say
I was hoping to finish this post before SisterMilshake showed up...oh well...
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 5:48 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
Were you a cheater before your wife stepped out on you? Did you have a wayward mentality before she cheated on you? If not, then I'm wondering why you would allow your wife and her AP turn you into something you're not. Everyone (I think) briefly considers a RA after D Day, if for no other reason than a desire to make their WS feel some of the pain we feel.
Screw that. I'm not a cheater. Never have been, never will be. My wife and her sleaze of an AP may have conspired to cause me great pain, but they do not have the power to make me less than I am.
Just my two cents. Sorry you are going through this.
So I guess according to statistics, QS isn't "as" betrayed as the other gents here eh?
^^^Again possibly...ask him...how many JFO posts (heck even one this week) are about catching the texting etc. and being hurt, but so *glad* that the affair was caught in time before going to a 'full-blown' PA...a great quote from a BW was that one takes 'precious little comfort' from these distinctions yet hangs onto them.
^^^Again possibly...ask him...how many JFO posts (heck even one this week) are about catching the texting etc. and being hurt, but so *glad* that the affair was caught in time before going to a 'full-blown' PA...a great quote from a BW was that one takes 'precious little comfort' from these distinctions yet hangs onto them.
QS sees himself as betrayed. He sees my last A as a technical PA. His pain is his pain. Doesn't matter if I stabbed him with a fork or butcher knife. He is hurt. He does not compare his betrayal to others here. He doesn't compare my As to a "what if". I cheated. I hurt him. Period. There is no "Well geez, thank Gawd you didn't fuck him!" Still doesn't make up for the selfies, the porn, the emails, chat logs, webcams. Lets be honest here, the chances of EA going PA are huge. Happens all the time. I stabbed him with a fork, but the butcher knife was in my other hand, hidden behind my back.
Never mind his FOO and emotional abandonment that layeres upon, and ties in with the betrayal. So my EAs, were really less than trivial. They really were "as bad" as physically jumping on some dude's gear. His pain is his, not yours or other guys here. I don't diminish his experience. Neither does he.
I said I wouldn't tolorate QS cheating. You said I dodged a question. Please clarify. Are you wanting my reasons for my "hypocrisy"?
Happens all the time. I stabbed him with a fork, but the butcher knife was in my other hand, hidden behind my back.
Are you wanting my reasons for my "hypocrisy"?
eta- word choice so as someone would not think it was a sarcastic comment
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 7:31 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
You know Jana, most every authoritative book, from NJF to ATA, observes that the BH on average is more affected by the PA while BWs are more affected by the EA.
The generalizations are really irritating.
What one person can work thru and forgive, another cannot. What one person is willing to swallow, another will not.
I was cheated on numerous times in a previous relationship. Yeah he was "just" a boyfriend. He banged every girl in the county. I'm sure you'll tell me it wasn't a serious relationship, I was young, blah-freaking-blah. Doesn't mean it didn't hurt. Now put that on a husband level? Hell no.
That's the short version. For me it's a dealbreaker. Period.
Some people call it hypocrisy. I call it my boundaries.
This is a valid subject that many people in R have or do struggle with. As the OP is wanting to R, no guidelines are being broken.
...most every authoritative book, from NJF to ATA, observes that the BH on average is more affected by the PA while BWs are more affected by the EA.
First of all, I don''t think bdell is advocating for a revenge affair. That of course implies a revenge motive which is nowhere to be found in his posts.
Because a RA would make you (general sense) one evil individual. To KNOW the pain that you went through, and then to intentionally inflict that pain on your spouse is cruel. IMO, it's worse than the original A.
I am aware that no one experiences pain and betrayal the same be they male or female, whether the affair is PA, EA, LTA or a ONS. It isn't a pissing competition - we are different. Our pain is different, all I do know is that the betrayal by the one who I loved and trusted above anyone, who I was loyal too and who I would have given my life for has destroyed part of me at my core. This betrayal has struck at my heart, my ego, my health and my spirit.
I cannot imagine inflicting this kind of pain on anyone deliberately. I sure don't think an RA would. In some ways it would be worse. It would be a calculated decision on my part to inflict pain and suffering at the deepest level on someone I vowed to love, be faithful too and to honour.
I guess knowing there was someone out there who found me attractive and wanted me would really only impact my ego. It would perhaps soothe my ego, but it would destroy my soul in the process. I don't ever want to find I am capable of destroying another person for no other reason than to get revenge and soothe my ego.
[This message edited by avicarswife at 8:22 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]
So, a drunk driver kills my son and I feel pretty good about doing the same thing to him. Yeah, the problem resides in me.
This is YOUR issue OP, fix it so that it reflects YOUR values, not your wife's
Best wishes whatever you decide to do with your wife. I can't give a lot of advice on reconciling, if any. I'm divorced.
I made my Vows to the loyal, loving woman I married.
An example of our interaction: She once (6 or 7 years ago) told another female employee that I was the only man in the department that she really wanted. I answered that it was because I was the only man in the department that never took her seriously. Since then, she rarely flirts with me,
It sounds like you were able to stick up for your boundaries 6 or 7 years ago and that's a good thing.
and only did so now because she somehow got wind of my situation.
What have the interactions been like lately? What did she say that you became aware of her willingness to have an affair with you, and how did you respond? With the way she acts, is it plausible that she's done things with other coworkers, and this is why their wives are angry?
This whole thread is based on my troubling situation regarding sex with my wife. If I could somehow enjoy sex with her , without the "mind movies" this subject would never have come up.
This is the real issue, and it seems like you know a RA wouldn't make it better. So let's acknowledge THIS pain: sex with your wife hurts you right now. It reminds you of what you've lost. And that is totally normal and understandable.
My heart is on the ground, and I cannot see a positive future. I do not want sex with another woman, whether it is a stranger or the stranger that my wife has become. I want sex with the wife that I married.
This is the heart of your pain. How can you mourn this? How can you process your grief? And how can you make your wife aware of your suffering and ask her for support?
And when I remember how sex was before, it makes me very sad and very angry. That is when I start to think about the unfairness of it all and why should I remain faithful to her when she didn't to me. Sex is a necessary part of a marriage, but in my case , it has also become a trigger, of itself. My heart is on the ground, and I cannot see a positive future. I do not want sex with another woman, whether it is a stranger or the stranger that my wife has become. I want sex with the wife that I married.
Now THIS ^^^^^ I can relate to!
But- I don't think you really want to have sex with the woman you M as THAT woman was capable of having sex with someone else.
If your WW is remorseful and full of guilt and prepared to walk over hot coals (several times over for years if that is what it takes)to repair the evil that she did to you then she cannot ever be the wife that you M. She will be different if she gets IC and will be a wife who will NEVER think an A (or having sex with someone else) other than you is appropriate!
Surely that kind of wife is the one that you really want?
You are getting a lot of ''triggery'' responses as there are some of us who think that having sex with somebody else outside of your spouse is wrong- regardless of whether the spouse is aware or otherwise... there are some on here who's spouse says they can't leave the OP alone and is sleeping with the AP still.... I agree with the analogies above that it's like getting drunk and killing someone in the drunk driver's family.
You admit your heart is on the floor but by sleeping with another you are then transferring the same pain onto your wife.
I cannot speak for mad hatters but I have seen some on here where the RA (or however you wish to phrase it) is the very thing that ends the M as the WS turned BS cannot accept the fact they have been cheated on.
All food for thought but I urge you to not even keep this thought in your head if you are trying to R. Not because you aren't allowed to have a 'get out' if you need one initially but because entertaining the (honest) possibility that you may or may not sleep with a colleague is how WS's thinking start down the slippery slope.
I am speaking as someone who also could not get with the hysterical bonding as I couldn't bear FWH to touch me knowing he'd had sex with a co-worker!
It took a long time for that issue to resolve and sometimes you need professional help.
I am also curious as to how you would then be placed on here... would you be a WS/ BS or a mad hatter or would you have to be viewed as a non remourseful WS as you went ahead after we all urged you not to?
And yes- I have re-read this thread and I hear what you are saying and that you are asking whether having sex with someone else with the full knowledge of your W is something that is feasible.
I don't have the answer to that but I will say this- your WW isn't the first who offered up this option to their BS as a way of either evening the score or to get the punishment they believe they deserve etc.
I hope those WS's who have done so can offer some insights for you or that those BS's who were offered this 'payback' will post.
I think I do need to take a step back from your post now though, sorry.
[This message edited by Bdell at 11:07 AM, January 26th (Sunday)]
xh was often up front about who he was "seeing." Meaning he told me he was seeing so-and-so whether I liked it or not, end trans... and in his mind, him doing it that way somehow gave him a clear conscious to go fuck who he wanted. I'm really glad he felt okay about it. Didn't hurt me or his crying children any less but hey, as long as he was good. (And yes, all but one of his OW were coworkers.)
Dude. Don't be that guy. Please. If it's a dealbreaker (totally okay) and you want out, do both of you a favor and go.
Her A only defines the marriage if you let it. It was hard for me to not let one night ruin my whole marriage. I felt like all 12 years that I have known my Fwh was a lie. One big fat lie. It wasn't. If you want to R, you have to quit looking at the situation the way you are right now. Focus on her actions NOW. Is she still behaving like a wayward? Or is she acting like "the woman you married"?
Find a way to get past the mind movies. For me, I pictured the prostitute (whose face is a mystery to me) as the derpy hiena from the lion king. Or better, I changed the channel. I pictured some of my favorite escapades my husband and I have had over the years. When that doesn't work, I turn on the light and look at him. I focus on the NOW. What's happening NOW.
the hope that my wife will become a BETTER woman than she was before the affair. After all, it was the pre-affair wife who allowed it to happen, and the wife I have NOW is a cheater. So if I'm going to stay with her she will have to improve herself to the point that I want to be married to her again, and want to have sex with her again. Getting our marriage back to pre-affair conditions isn't acceptable, even if it were possible.
Thank you bdell for putting a voice to some thoughts and feelings that do not get expressed as much as I would like.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 2:07 PM, January 26th (Sunday)]
I want sex with the wife that I married.
Oh Bdell. Your pain is palpable.
We are just under 3 years from DD and I sometimes feel that same way. And he is still so ashamed. It makes us both so sad. But there is no way he can un-fuck the AP...so that is that.
I get what your saying about being upfront about having a RA. 'Not really an affair if its out in the open...Right?
I fled to a girlfriend home in NYC and asked Mr. Happy to get me some condoms and gel so I could get some 'fresh junk' while I was away. His eyeballs popped out of his head. He got mad and refused, but after some discussion about how he was so versed in buying condoms and how we had never used them and bought them for me. I told him he was protecting himself...no telling what I could bring back to the marital bed. LOL!!!
I never did anything like that. I'm too chicken and had/have no desire to step out of my marriage for sex even though he did. Guess we are just wired different. But I got the desired response from him, shock and dismay. And he wondered the whole time I was gone...
About 8 months after DD we decided to truly R. It was then that we really examined our lives and worked on healing our marriage together.
To this day we are in 'heal' mode. It took a long time for me to process that I was not very special to him. I had to realize that what he thought of me did not define me. I took that out of the marriage arena. The fact that I don't need him to feel good is good for me but he really does not like my new found independence from his thoughts about me. He wants me to 'need' him. Those days are over. I love him but don't need him. That is a cold hard fact and it put some emotional distance between us. Too Bad. I needed that distance to protect my heart.
Our marriage is very different now. The sex has gotten better, no more mind movies but we are more than 2 years out.
When we have sex, I KNOW she is enjoying it, (she O's very easily) and when I am nice to her she blooms with pleasure. I do my best to keep from expressing my anger and disgust, in hopes that I can see a glimmer of a better future. But depression is usually only a trigger away.
All of this^^^ is completely normal. Just know that your emotions and depressions will ebb and flow and with time and lots of work between the two of you, times will get better. A lot better.
There has been plenty of advice on this thread regarding RA's. I hope that you can see through your pain that having an 'affair' will not solve any problem, and cause a lot more strife in your fragile marriage.
Never forget what is worth remembering or remember what is best forgotten.
WRT being upfront, a fellow member was upfront with her H and had his permission, explicitly, IIRC.
That didn't work out for her at all. She had a very hard time recovering her self-respect.
Just sayin'.
Big ((hugs)) to you. I know we all contemplate it. I think it's impossible not to. Just think long and hard about what YOU can live with.
I made my Vows to the loyal, loving woman I married.
You made those vows to THE woman you married, for better or for worse. Unfortunately the woman you married turned out to not be loyal or as loving as you would have hoped. I can relate. Life sucks.
If you have a RA, I guess you won't be the loyal, loving man she thought she married. It goes back to my earlier post - why would you give her and her AP the power to make you less of a man? A real man honors his vows and doesn't use someone else's shitty behavior to justify his own. If you cheat, you're a cheater. Period.
ETA: Bdell, I just noticed your join date and assume that you are no more than 2-3 months past D Day. If so then the shock, hurt and anger are still very fresh. I'm sorry for your pain. Just know that it WILL get better, regardless of what happens to the marriage. In the meantime, fight like hell for your own honor and integrity. You won't regret it.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 9:01 PM, January 26th (Sunday)]
In my mind that means I am not actually married.
This says it all. Complete the process, and then go out and do as you please.
When you took that vow, you said *I*. That vow was really to yourself. Promises YOU made to you by saying *I will* or *I won't*
You are the only person in control of your behavior.
This may have been vow that you expressed to her, but ultimately it represents your promise of how you will act when in a M with her.
She broke her word to herself and you. Even though you feel you are no longer "married" because she breached her end of the contract, an RA will require you to break the portion of the vow that was really a promise you made to yourself.
Your word will no longer be good.
I agree with you BTW on the breaking of the vow and how it means you are no longer M. I very much felt that way. But breaking the promises I make to myself is another betrayal I just can't handle. I have been dealt enough betrayal at the hands of others, I'm sure as shit not going to betray myself.
[This message edited by Bdell at 10:02 AM, January 28th (Tuesday)]
As far as having sex with the Lady at work. Yes, very wise to not have any more drama in your life. Also, if you were going to "do it" for an ego boost, to show that you still "got it", the Lady's casual attitude toward sex would not be the ego boost you desired. She views sex, imo, the same way she views eating and pooping. It is merely a need to be taken care of. A bodily function. Not much of an ego boost, just another need taken care of.
Actually , what I want is the kind of romantic Love that my wife and I had, before the affair.
Good luck bdell.
That is why civil ceremonies are valid and not just religious ones. I made a pact with my wife. she broke the terms of the pact. In my mind that means I am not actually married. I know that I am legally, but again that is only if I wish it to be so.
As a non-religious kinda guy, I still don't feel that it works that way.
Yeah, she violated the terms of agreement, which provides a legal out. You have the opportunity to null the contract on the grounds of violated terms. That means divorce.
Proceeding under the idea that the legal contract is in place but you no longer need to observe it because she didn't means you don't follow the proper procedures, either, and violate it under the same terms. Who did what first doesn't validate things.
Also, jedi fist bumps to you.
[This message edited by StillGoing at 5:59 PM, January 28th (Tuesday)]
I also think this is a really important subject to talk about once in a while if it can remain civil (but it's nearly impossible to talk about wanting to have an affair to a group of BS's without it being triggering - let's be real). We all have the chance to cheat - imagine if we lived in a world where the only thing that kept us from cheating was not finding a willing affair partner. That would be grim. Feeling like you're entitled to have an affair because your spouse did xyz is one of the more slippery slopes of justification we face. When in truth fidelity comes from inside you - not from your spouse's actions.
It will probably be a long time before you're divorced and healed and ready to be a good partner, without piles of anger/fear/baggage from your wife's A and whatever happens in the divorce, but you do deserve to build the relationship you want and start over if that's what you choose. Best of luck to you!


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The Kansas City Chiefs have reportedly signed UFA Bradley McDougald, a free safety from Kansas University.
It appears the Chiefs are addressing the secondary and adding depth at the safety position with the next undrafted free agent signing. Another local athlete, the Jayhawk safety, sent out a tweet announcing his signing with the Chiefs.
Just agreed to a free agent deal with the KC Chiefs… Thank you for all the love and support, time to go to work!
— Bradley McDougald (@BabyLead) April 28, 2013
Shortly thereafter, in case most folks didn't understand how he felt about joining the Chiefs as a UFA, he sent a follow up.
#ChiefsNation I'm home..
— Bradley McDougald (@BabyLead) April 28, 2013
McDougald has had quite a successful college career and has been recognized for his achievements. He was named Second Team All-Big 12 by the league's coaches, Third Team All-Big 12 by Phil Steele Magazine and All-Big 12 Honorable Mention by the Associated Press. In addition to that, he received an invitation to the Senior Bowl.
While the Jayhawks didn't have the greatest season in 2012, McDougald finished the year with 92 total tackles and three interceptions.
Again, I like this signing as it adds needed depth at the very back end of the Chiefs' defensive secondary. Eric Berry will be a starter at the strong safety position for years to come, but Kendrick Lewis still has a huge question mark on his chest as far as I'm concerned. We'll see if McDougald can help with that.
What do you think of this signing, Addicts? Are you happy to see Bradley McDougald remain in the Kansas City area?

subset: commoncrawl


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Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you the official album cover.
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Could the Bears be showing their hand? They met with safety Deone Bucannon on Monday.
The Bears are looking into solidifying the safety position. Even with the signings of Ryan Mundy and MD Jennings, there is still a need for a solid, longtime starter.
The visit with Bucannon was the second one between the two since January.
With all the speculation going on about what the Bears are going to do, this might be a sign of a part of their plan. Of course, any potential trade would change everything.
The earliest Bucannon is projected to go is in the second round, so it may appear that the Bears would go after a defensive tackle (Donald!) with their first pick, then go after a safety in the second round.
The NFL is a copycat league. With the Seattle Seahawks winning the Super Bowl, other teams will try to build the same kind of defense that got them over the top.
Bucannon went to Washington State. He would give the Bears a Seattle-type safety. He is similar to Kam Chancellor. He is big (6'1″, 211 pounds), and he is a big hitter. For those who remember, Bucannon can bring back memories of Doug Plank and Gary Fencik.
Bucannon also has some good ball skills. He led the Pac-10 in tackles in 2013 with 102. He also forced three fumbles, and had six interceptions (15 for his career).
Bucannon does backpedal a little too high, and his hips are tight, so change of direction may be a problem for him. He would need to work on that or he could get burned by a double move or a runner who cuts against the grain.
If the Bears do not go after Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Bucannon would be a high value pick for them. He would fit in well in Chicago and could be the longterm safety the Bears have been looking for.
Tags: Chicago Bears Deone Bucannon


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See also:Miss PRISCILLA
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See also:Illustration," in
See also:Waterloo Place, London . From 186o to 1877 they were assisted by
See also:JOHN ORLANDO
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See also:singer; and the latter created a new type of musical and dramatic monologue which became very popular . His tradition was carried on after 187o by Mr CORNEY
See also:GRAIN (1844-1895), who, as a
See also:clever, refined, and yet highly humorous society entertainer (originally a
See also:barrister), was one of the best-known figures of his
See also:day . After the retirement of the elder German Reeds, their son,
See also:ALFRED GERMAN REED (1846-1895), himself a capital actor, carried on the business in
See also:partnership with Corney Grain . The " German Reed Entertainment "—which was always patronized by a large class of
See also:people, many of whom objected on principle to going or taking their
See also:children to a
See also:regular theatre or a
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See also:hall--retained its vogue for
See also:forty years at Waterloo Place and at the St
See also:George's Hall,
See also:Regent Street . But the
See also:death of Mr Corney Grain almost simultaneously with Mr Alfred German Reed, in 1895, together with the changed public attitude towards the regular theatre, ended its career .
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October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month
Congratulations to our partners at the Family Violence Prevention Fund. President Obama recently acknowledged their hard work as part of his proclaiming October National Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Esta Soler, President of the Family Violence Prevention Fund, was also invited to blog at whitehouse.gov to mark the occasion. She writes that educating young men is crucial to ending domestic violence. "The inclusion of men is also evidence of our steadfast focus on prevention. To end abuse we must teach the next generation that violence is always wrong." You can read the full post here.
4 Responses to "October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month"
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We've been wondering who would be pulling out the feather boas and rose colored glasses to take on the role of Elton John in the Rocketman biopic for a while now, and now we know. According to EW.com, Tom Hardy, best known as Batman's grunting enemy Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, has signed on to play Sir Elton.
Gregg Allman's 'Extraordinarily Dark & Tragic American Story' To Hit The Big Screen
Gregg Allman's 2012 memoir, My Cross To Bear, is being developed into a feature film biopic by the same team working on the upcoming film about legendary New York punk club CBGB. According to the […]
Director Michael Gracey Signs On To Elton John 'Rocketman' Biopic
Talk of an Elton John biopic, Rocketman, has been in the air for over a year, with Sir Elton famously stating that he would like to see Justin Timberlake as himself in the film. While the […]
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For years, a biopic based on the troubled and triumphant life of the Beach Boys' creative mastermind, Brian Wilson, has been in the works. Now the film, titled Love & Mercy, is charging full speed ahead, […]
Lenny Kravitz To Play Motown Legend Marvin Gaye In Biopic
Lenny Kravitz honed his musical chops during the '90s by combining rock, soul, R&B and funk on songs like "Are You Gonna Go My Way," "Fly Away," "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" and "Believe." More recently, he earned his acting stripes with roles in diverse films including the Oscar-nominated Precious and the adaptation of The Hunger Games. Now, he's combining both sides of his skill sets to play the role of Marvin Gaye in Julien Temple's biopic on the iconic soul singer.